So, mark that date on your calendar, in purple, tell a friend, tune in, and be sure to show
your support.
That's Friday, May 15th, 12 midnight to 3 AM, for The Soul of a Man, a tribute to the
legendary Harry Belafonte.
Miss this one and hate yourself.
The Midnight Ravers, where every show is a special.
Hi, I'm Rosie Perez, and this is WBAI, listener-supported, non-commercial radio in New York.
And you are listening to Radio Station WBAI New York Still.
It's 7 o'clock on a Wednesday night, and that means it's time for Off the Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
Bondedly boned for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bondedly boned.
Bondedly boned.
And a very good evening to everybody.
The program is Off the Hook.
Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday night.
Joined tonight by Mike.
Why did that not work?
Hang on, I turned it up, so you want to speak maybe a little louder?
All right, good evening.
Reggie, what am I doing wrong?
I've got the buttons pushed.
I've got the buttons pushed, I've got the knob up, and for some reason it's not working.
We're still getting accustomed to our new home here.
Did I not do it right?
Yeah, you're on.
Well, he's not on, I'm on, but Mike's not on.
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Okay, we're figuring out, folks.
Fortunately, and I'm talking now because I'm over there.
Mike should be over there or there, and he's not.
When he talks, you don't hear anything.
Oh, okay.
All right, now.
I'm hearing some hiss now.
How's that?
Oh, there he is.
Okay, there he is.
I hope, I want to wish you a good evening four times, so.
So you didn't tell me about that knob.
Someone turned that one down.
Well, someone touched it and they shouldn't.
All right, whoever touched that knob, we're on to you.
So joined tonight by Mike.
Yes, still a good evening.
All right, Kyle.
Present.
All right, your mic works.
Rob T. Firefly.
Good evening.
Bernie S.
Greetings from Philadelphia.
Bernie, you have a rather annoying sound on your phone line tonight.
You hear that?
An annoying sound?
Kind of like a buzzing, hissing sort of thing.
Really?
Yeah.
I'm sorry, I don't know if it's here or if it's coming near a studio.
It's something I haven't heard before.
How about if I try a system?
No, I think it's local.
I'm pretty sure it's local, but we'll just try and hobble through.
I'll take a listen.
Yeah, if you could.
That would be helpful.
And we have a special two-hour program.
You have to deal with us for two hours tonight as we not only get used to our new home here in Brooklyn,
but attempt to raise funds so that we can stay here in our new home in Brooklyn.
It's live radio at its best, I think.
And we have with us in the studio a very, very special guest.
Andy of the Yes Men is joining us tonight.
Present.
Wow.
Well, now you guys have a brand new film coming out,
and that's something that we're going to devote the whole first hour to that,
because this is just such exciting news that when a new film comes out,
you have to devote an entire hour to it.
And then for the second hour, we're just going to have one of our usual casual analyses.
I turned them down.
Do you want to hear the hiss?
No, no, no.
It actually sounds fine.
Well, it sounds fine because I turned them down.
If I turn them up, you'll hear the hiss.
Oh, okay.
There's no reason to keep the hiss on when, yeah.
Okay.
The hiss is there now.
And I sound different, too.
I hiss?
Yeah, you're a hiss.
Yeah, no, because it's because of the faders.
Because they're feeding into each other.
That's why.
Oh, they're feeding into each other.
Okay, well, we'll try and keep that as calm as possible.
Okay, back to Andy and the Yes Men and the new film.
We are going to be making a very special offer tonight for people who want to support the station,
for people who want to get involved with the Yes Men,
for people who just are into all of the things that we cover week after week.
But Andy, let me give you a couple of moments here to just give us a brief rundown of what this film is,
when it's coming out, how long you've been working on it,
what you expect to change in society by putting this film out at this particular point in time.
Things like that.
Everything.
It's the third Yes Men film, and what we do is get ourselves invited to corporate conferences,
as people were not, and make big statements on their behalf that are either really nice or really strange.
Or sometimes we get them to dance in a circle.
Could you give an example of the past when you did that?
One of your previous.
Previous.
Yeah.
Yeah.
At one point I was accidentally invited onto the BBC as a representative of Dow Chemical.
I actually saw that live.
I think it was before I knew you, and I saw this interview taking place, and it just seemed a bit odd.
Yeah.
What made it odd?
The fact that I was the interviewee, instead of a Dow Chemical spokesperson, which the BBC thought I was.
Well, yeah, but then once you were on the air, you started saying things that didn't quite add up.
Well, I took, on behalf of Dow, I took full responsibility for the Bhopal catastrophe,
which Dow is responsible for because they bought the company that caused it.
Right.
But they've refused that argument.
I remember thinking at the time when you said that, that this finally was a good thing that Dow was doing.
They're finally taking responsibility, and maybe this could serve as an example for other megacorporations.
Yeah.
But alas, it turned out not to be true.
Right.
And how did Dow react when they found out that you were speaking for them on the BBC?
They were a bit angry, I guess.
I mean, they spoke in PR language, so it was a very well-tempered little paragraph,
which we then augmented into a giant press release on their behalf.
So you continued, even after you were found out, you continued to speak for them,
or to basically say that they were doing certain things?
What was the next step?
We had some time on our hands, yeah.
We wrote a big press release.
It was revealed that this was false, this wasn't Dow, and Dow issued a short statement about it.
And one funny thing that happened during that period when it was believed to be true
is that Dow was doing the right thing in Bhopal, taking responsibility for compensating the survivors, etc.,
was that the stock value of Dow plunged by about $2 billion.
Wow.
And then came right back up as soon as it was revealed.
And still, for a few minutes, you made $2 billion disappear.
Yeah.
That's kind of cool.
Yeah.
But then you actually, and correct me if I'm wrong, because maybe this is another thing I'm thinking of,
after you were found out, you issued a statement from them basically denouncing what you had done,
except it was still you saying it.
Yeah, yeah.
It was just to be really, really clear about what Dow wasn't doing.
How do they deny that?
How do they separate themselves from you saying what they want to say anyway?
They can't.
They can't.
And years later, people would say,
Oh, my God, you got Dow to issue this amazing long statement.
It was awesome.
It's like, yeah, it was.
And Dow is only one.
I mean, you've had the World Trade Organization disbanded at one point.
Yeah.
We've done this a few times.
And the latest one, we spoke as the U.S. Chamber of Commerce,
which is actually the largest lobbying organization in the world.
Their clients are all big, giant businesses.
And they lobby on behalf of these businesses in the Senate, in the Congress, on TV,
in all kinds of different ways.
They're funded by the oil industry largely, in large part.
And they lobby on behalf of their giant clients to basically further their interests.
So against labor rights, against health care, against everything that people want,
but corporations don't want.
One of those things is climate change legislation.
They lobby against climate change legislation.
And so in 2009, when there was a particularly, well, it wasn't a great bill,
but it was a bill to deal with climate change called the Waxman-Markey bill.
It was actually a terrible bill, but it was something.
And the chamber was busy lobbying against it.
Markey? Ed Markey?
Yeah, I guess so.
I have history with him.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, I forget.
I mean, you know, it was a terrible bill if that history is not good.
I'm not surprised.
Not surprised at all.
But it was a cap-and-trade thing where the idea is you pollute,
and if you pollute too much, you pay extra money.
Or if you don't pollute, then you can get money from other people who want to pollute.
So it's stupid.
What we need is a carbon tax.
If you pollute, you pay a lot of money because you're basically causing a lot of damage,
and somebody's going to have to deal with that.
So it's a way of fining corporations for polluting.
That's just much more effective, and it works.
So in those few moments when you wore the United States Chamber of Commerce?
We announced that not only were we—and the way this happened, by the way,
is we set up a fake press conference at the Washington Press Club,
the national press club in Washington.
By we, I mean other people, the Avaz Action Factory,
who were young climate activists who got it into their head to do this,
and contacted us and said, Hey, you guys want to work with us on this?
And we said, Yeah, that sounds amazing.
We've never set up a press conference, but if you know how, we'll do it.
And they didn't know how either, but they figured it out, rented the room.
We sent out a press advisory and made this announcement on behalf of the Chamber of Commerce,
got a bunch of reporters there, made an announcement that we,
the Chamber of Commerce, were no longer opposing this climate legislation.
We were, in fact, calling for a much stronger piece of legislation, a carbon tax.
And this was because the world was going to go to hell in a handbasket if we didn't do this,
and that would be bad for business.
They found out, and they actually burst into your meeting, or one spokesman did,
and he actually wound up sounding more unbelievable than you guys.
Yeah.
And he kind of left with his tail between his legs.
Well, no. I mean, yeah, he should have.
If anybody wants to talk to me, I'll be out in the hallway.
He basically was saying things like that.
Oh, yeah, yeah. Where's your business card was the first thing he asked,
as if that mattered if I had a business card.
And you had a great comeback for that.
I asked him where his was.
In fact, we're going to hear that in a second, because we have the promo for the film that's coming out.
When is the film actually coming out?
June 12th at IFC.
Okay.
I just have a housekeeping question. What is the title of the film?
Oh, funny you should ask.
We were getting to it.
The Yes Men Are Revolting.
And we forget to say the titles of our films.
Yes. The Yes Men Are Revolting.
There's two ways you can interpret that.
And I guess people who hate the film will say it one way,
and people who love the film will say it a different way.
It was translated into Arabic as The Yes Men Are Disgusting.
Really? That doesn't quite work, does it?
It does also.
Well, okay.
So we're going to play the promo for this film coming out in June.
But for you BAI listeners that support us tonight,
we have a very special deal, a very special offer.
And we're going to make that clear as soon as we come back.
But let's first listen to the promo for the upcoming film, The Yes Men Are Revolting.
Okay. And this was my fault. I didn't press the button.
See, it's an extra step here.
They make you press a button now.
And I'm going to press a button.
I'm sorry I didn't press the button the first time.
And this is the promo for The Yes Men Are Revolting.
So what's your name, sir?
My name is Dick Impala. I'm with Environment Canada.
You don't really work for Environment Canada, do you?
We're in Uganda.
Here, a flood or drought means people die.
Young people are aiming to overthrow the U.S. financial system.
Get the bull! Get the bull!
We've been working with the Yes Men.
The Yes Men!
The Yes Men.
They're an activist group of pranksters.
So go towards the machine gun and then left and you'll be at the U.N. Everything will be fine.
It's not the way most people protest, but it's our way to say no to corporate greed.
I'm Eric Wolfschlegel. I'm with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.
Are you here representing the U.S. Chamber of Commerce?
Yes, I am.
This guy is a fraud. He's lying.
Can I see your business card?
Can I see yours?
Scientists are telling us this is the last chance to make a stand.
This is Hurricane Sandy.
So what do we do?
How stupid is it not to address climate change?
How stupid is it not to address climate change?
To keep going, we've got to be part of something bigger than ourselves.
I'm so nervous, even though I'm not doing anything.
Drilling in the Arctic? Let's go. We're pumped.
Sometimes things don't work out exactly right.
Leave now.
They're calling for a squad car.
We have to get costumes.
Oh my God.
My head is going to be right up your ass.
Oh, sorry.
Right in the eye.
Fantastic.
Oh, wow.
Okay, well, we're going to try and describe what that video was showing,
because this is radio, obviously, and you couldn't see what was actually being portrayed there.
But I also want to say, before we get into that,
that those of you who want to support the radio station,
who want to support Off the Hook, who want to support the Yes Men,
please give a call now, 212-209-2950.
For a pledge of $75, you will get a DVD of that movie.
When the DVD comes out, I believe over the summer,
212-209-2950, a pledge of $75.
Not only will you get the DVD, you'll get an autographed DVD from the Yes Men themselves.
A pledge of $125, you'll get that DVD, plus a grab bag of other assorted Yes Men items.
We're talking about the first two films, the fake newspapers that came out.
We'll go into more detail on that a little bit later on.
And I believe we have playing cards, too.
Which, what are the playing cards, Andy?
Regime Change Playing Cards.
It's vintage from the Gulf War.
Because I remember that playing cards were actually given out,
but it was more like find the evil guys.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They were actually, the Pentagon produced some playing cards
with the names of the people in the pictures.
And we did the same thing, basically, but with the actual evildoers in the charade.
Okay.
So all of that for a pledge of $125.
212-209-2950.
So everybody who calls in will get the DVD of this film,
which has not yet been released, and it's about to be in just a few weeks.
Okay, so Andy, can you tell us, as best you can,
what kinds of things were being portrayed in that promo?
Some of the sounds.
You had someone's ass.
What was that all about?
Oh, God.
Weird joke.
Not my kind of humor.
But we were, oh, boy, this is a hard one.
Well, first of all, this film doesn't portray only successes.
And it doesn't portray us as cartoon superhero figures,
kind of like our second film, The Yes Men Fix the World.
I mean, I like the film, but it does portray us kind of two-dimensionally.
This one is really a full portrait of the difficulties of being an activist,
of maintaining hope, of continuing to fight for a long time
and stand up for what you care for.
And it portrays that because it also portrays the solution,
which is to be part of a big movement that's fighting and winning.
So individual battles seem not to work sometimes.
And that, the head-up-the-ass thing, is one of the battles that didn't work.
But in the movie, right after that, we see, oh, this is working
because there are these movements that are winning and do succeed.
So we've got to keep that in mind.
And, you know, you look historically, and movements do succeed.
I mean, the civil rights struggle won, women's suffrage won,
gay marriage is now a reality almost everywhere.
Things win.
So, you know, we can beat climate change even though it seems hopeless sometimes.
And seeing that, seeing what you're tackling in this film,
made me think of vice, actually, because you're tackling a lot of the same issues
but with a completely different attitude, a lot more humorous and a lot more,
I think there's more effectiveness in humor.
So you always set out to do that.
You always set out to tackle serious issues using humor.
Yes.
And did you find that it works?
Yeah.
I mean, it spreads the message.
With humor, you can appeal to people who aren't on your side
because they like to laugh.
Everybody likes to laugh, even if the joke is a little bit not your politics.
Since, you know, left politics is where humor is.
I mean, that's where you can make jokes
because it's against the powerful that humor is funny.
It's not against the powerless.
And so we have humor on our side,
and we can get people who don't agree with our politics to laugh.
And that's powerful.
Now, what happens after they laugh?
They start thinking.
They think about it a little bit.
Yeah.
Interesting.
I actually believe that.
So go ahead, Rob.
Yeah.
I'm a big fan of not only using humor, but in a lot of the things you do,
there's this element of just such ridiculousness to it,
which is great at highlighting the sort of darker ridiculousness
in the things that you're working against,
things like the survival balls and a certain gold suit you've worn in the past
and just these wonderful like batty things that are great at, yeah,
they're great at just pointing out the actual ridiculousness of what's going on.
Okay.
You mentioned survival balls.
So tell us what those are.
You see these in this new film as well.
They were debuted in our second film.
They're Halliburton's solution to climate change,
which are these balls.
And we presented them at a conference, an insurance conference,
catastrophic loss insurance conference on the Gulf Coast shortly after Katrina.
They're balls that protect CEOs basically from any climate change catastrophe.
They cost a tremendous amount of money, which is why they're only for CEOs.
But they are a solution to climate change in that they protect the wealthiest,
most powerful people in corporate society.
And that to a corporation is a solution.
There's a scene in the latest film where you guys are climbing up some steps.
And I think, is it you that comes tumbling all the way down while being arrested or something?
What happened there?
That's Mike.
Is that Mike?
Okay.
It's hard to tell when you wrapped up in that thing.
Yeah.
We had an onslaught of about 20 survival balls, 20 of these things.
We waddled up.
They don't actually walk very well,
but we've waddled to the US Capitol and up the steps to take it over.
They don't move fast or well, so it was pretty doomed from the start.
But it looks great.
And they do actually protect you against arrest, it turns out,
because the cops just don't know what to do or where to grab.
It's great when you confuse cops.
I know that much.
Yeah.
Wow.
And that's also part of the message of our film is taking risks, risking arrest.
That's part of change.
If this sounds like the kind of thing that appeals to you or if you want to take notes
and learn how you can maybe take part in similar activities in the future,
please give us a call.
212-209-2950.
Pledge of $75 gets you autographed copy of the DVD of The Yes Men Are Revolting,
the forthcoming film.
Pledge of 125 gets you three films.
I should point out they were autographed as well.
The Yes Men Fixed the World.
The first one was called?
The Yes Men.
The Yes Men.
I was having trouble remembering that one.
Okay.
The Yes Men Are Revolting.
Plus you'll get the two fake newspapers, which were New York Times, I believe,
and New York Post.
New York Post, yeah.
Okay.
And you'll get the Regime Change playing cards.
That's for Pledge of 125.
A lot of Yes Men material there, a lot of autographs.
212-209-2950.
Best of all, though, you're supporting WBAI and keeping us here.
And, of course, if you're listening to this in the mysterious future
or you would just like to not use the telephone,
you can go to give, the numeral 2, WBAI.org,
search for Yes Men in the search box where the premiums are,
and you will find the premiums.
Or you can also pledge for the other WBAI premiums that are there.
Just fill in off the hook as the show you're supporting
and help keep the show going and help keep the station going.
While supplies last.
So, obviously, if you really want to make sure you get this,
call now, 212-209-2950,
and that way you can be assured that you'll be one of the lucky people
to get the Yes Men are revolting.
Now, Andy, there was more in that promo that was going on.
I know there was some climate change activists.
What kind of people still are against climate change legislation?
I mean, haven't we seen enough evidence?
That's a really good question.
I mean, you meet some of the people,
well, you see some of the people near the beginning
who are against climate change legislation,
namely the U.S. Chamber of Commerce
and the guy who barges into the room to disrupt the conference.
Did you make him laugh at least?
No.
Couldn't make him laugh?
No.
That's too bad.
Impossible.
At least not then.
But by the end of the film, though,
it's a very hopeful film.
First of all, because of Occupy Wall Street and other movements
that you see in the film and you understand their impact
and what they mean.
Yeah, I really like the sense of cooperative
and hope through cooperation and getting kind of inspired
and learning from other people.
I love that because I think that's crucial for everything we do
and definitely something I think people will take away from it.
Yeah.
I mean, that movement was a huge shot in the arm for us.
It just showed that things can change
and we can suddenly get the entire country talking about inequality
by a few dozen people sitting a mile away from Wall Street
and calling themselves Occupy Wall Street.
It's performance art.
It's theater.
But it really made a huge difference in the way we talk about things.
And it's remained.
I mean, those networks are still doing work as part of other movements,
as part of Black Lives Matter, as part of Occupy Sandy is legendary.
Yes, absolutely.
And it was also a shot in the arm for us because we went there
and many times people would come up to us and say,
I saw one of your films and that's what got me started thinking about activism
or it encouraged me to get involved more.
Mischief does lead to activism, doesn't it?
Yeah, it does.
I find that amazing because I conducted a lot of mischief when I was in college.
Similar things.
We should talk about this sometimes.
Well, I'll tell you one thing we did.
We changed the policy of the phone company
because they used to charge people when they weren't in their dormitories
during intersession, and we said that that fee was going to be waived.
And they got into a big fight with the university
thinking that the university had changed the policy.
This was back in New York Telephone.
And it was amazing to watch this battle taking place in the newspaper
because that's where it was being reported.
Another time, and you might have had experience with things like this,
where you change history and you find that unintentionally
you've actually changed something in the past.
We announced, a bunch of mischief makers and myself announced a curfew.
It's always fun to announce a curfew.
That always gets a good reaction.
And it's a ridiculous curfew too, like 7 p.m.
or something ridiculous like that for the entire campus.
And we said that we're reinstating the curfew from the 1960s
because of various people double parking
or some civil unrest that was going on at the time.
And the university had to issue this statement saying,
we are not reinstituting the curfew from that particular year.
In other words, they didn't bother to check
whether they ever had a curfew in the first place.
But now they said there was, so we sort of made it happen.
That is amazing.
Did you ever have anything like that happen?
No.
Where you inadvertently changed history
or somebody just agreed with a point that you made,
which was not a valid point?
No.
Well, I'm sure it's in your future.
But you asked earlier who would oppose climate change legislation nowadays.
And I said, well, you meet people in the film who did at least oppose it
before they changed position.
By the way, the chamber changed position on that legislation
about two weeks after our event.
Not because of it, but because of a giant groundswell
that we were a little part of.
So that's positive.
Well, don't underestimate your effect
because I'm sure it had something to do with it.
Who knows.
But at the end of the film, to really answer your question,
who would oppose it, I mean, it's a really good question
because at the end of the film, we go to a Homeland Security conference
posing as the Department of Energy.
And we announce that the U.S. is going to undergo an energy revolution.
We're going to completely abolish fossil fuels in a very short time.
And we're going to replace it with renewable energy
that will be individually owned or communally owned
by Native American tribes as partial reparations for genocide
and cited on well-winded and sunned lands that they've been put on.
And we had a couple of Native Americans there
who got the entire audience of Homeland Security professionals,
defense contractors, et cetera, to stand up
and do a supposedly traditional Native American round dance
for energy revolution.
It was quite stunning.
You really got to see it.
And that's in the film?
That's in the film.
Wow.
So who is against climate change legislation?
Not many people, really, if you really make the case to them.
And if we really take over and just decide, you know, we want this,
it's kind of amazing who's going to follow.
212-209-2950.
We need to see some calls coming in.
It's been kind of light, and I'm hoping to see a deluge.
212-209-2950.
For a $75 pledge, you will get the new Yes Men movie,
The Yes Men Are Revolting, signed by Andy and Mike from the Yes Men.
For a pledge of $125, you'll get that plus a whole lot more Yes Men material,
a couple of other films and some fake newspapers,
really well-done fake newspapers, and the playing cards for regime change.
212-209-2950.
Let's see these phone calls come in so that we know that our audience
is appreciating the enthusiasm, the inspiration that these guys
have brought to the world.
When did you start doing Yes Men things?
1999.
Wow.
Yeah, it was during the Seattle protests.
That's when you got started, during the Seattle protests.
Yeah.
We broadcast live on this station, and it was definitely a turning point.
But I had no idea.
It was IMC.
It was in the media center that we thought was being born at that time.
Had no idea that Yes Men would also be born then.
Yeah, a lot of things were born.
I mean, movements are inspiring, and movements have lots of effects.
So, yeah, we actually couldn't even go to the protests,
but we were inspired by them, and our attention was really focused.
And so we set up a fake WTO website just because we were playing around
with websites.
It was the time when you could play around with websites and copy them,
and people would notice.
You didn't have to pay anything to register a website many times
before then.
Yeah, not much.
It was free.
You could register any name you wanted.
This was back in the mid-'90s.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, a lot of people grabbed some good domains then.
That's pretty amazing.
Yeah, somebody grabbed gat.org, G-A-T-T,
which was the previous initials of the WTO.
So he bought that just as the WTO changed names and became the WTO.
Interesting.
And he gave it to us, and we put our fake copy on it,
and it got a ton of attention,
mainly because the WTO wrote a press release about it condemning it.
And we sent that press release on to many other people who found it very amusing.
And because of that, it got some articles about it
and got into search engines as a result of the articles,
and soon enough we were getting lots of email intended for the WTO,
including eventually one inviting us to a conference.
So that's how we got it.
It was directly a result of the Seattle protests.
People really don't do a lot of research when they invite you to things, right?
They invited you as a representative of the WTO,
and they just didn't do their homework,
and you actually went and announced their dissolution.
Yeah, well, later.
We spoke as the WTO about five times,
and finally we just had to announce their dissolution
because we had to do something different.
What's the biggest threat that you face doing these kinds of things?
Do people threaten you with physical violence?
Do they threaten you with lawsuits, prison time?
No, no, no.
The biggest threat is probably our own fear,
which we don't have that much of anymore
because we've found it isn't merited.
I mean, people always wonder whether we get sued or arrested,
and the answer is really no.
I mean, in 20 years of doing this,
we've never been arrested for it, certainly.
There's nothing criminal about it.
In fact, once the police actually sprang us from the clutches of security guards
who had detained us.
Wow.
Long story.
In this film, though, you do see that we do get sued
by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.
Oh, they sued you?
Yeah, it's the first time in 20 years, the only time.
For four years, we had this lawsuit hanging over our heads,
and pro bono lawyers agreed to defend it.
The EFF rose to our defense mainly,
the Electronic Frontier Foundation in San Francisco,
fantastic organization,
and they brought on a very large law firm,
and their lawyers defended us pro bono.
Four years later, it was about to head to court finally.
Four years on, and just as it was about to head to court,
they dropped it.
Wow.
Without any prejudice.
It was actually kind of disappointing.
Yeah, because that could have been a fourth film, easily,
just what happened in that, what kinds of things they said in court.
Exactly.
212-209-2950, please give us a call.
Pledge $75 to get your autographed copy of the new Yes Man film on DVD,
and pledge $125 to get that, plus two more films,
and newspapers, and playing cards,
and all kinds of fun things that come along with being a WBAI supporter.
212-209-2950.
I'd like everybody to give a reason why we should be getting people to call.
I know, Bernie, you have something to say.
Yeah, I was going to say, I love the Yes Man.
Thanks for coming on, Andy.
This whole genre of protests that you do is kind of well-known to many of our listeners,
and those who attend the HOPE Conference, is social engineering.
But you guys are masters at the art of social engineering.
Corporations, news media organizations, pseudo-government organizations or NGOs,
just watching them get schooled by your social engineering is inspiring.
It makes everybody watching this stuff want to do this themselves,
because it just looks like so much fun.
It's so effective.
It's more effective than just like a street protest or something,
because you're just turning the tables on them.
It's kind of like informational judo.
It's brilliant.
So I really encourage our listeners who are fans of social engineering
to see some of the best people in the world doing it against some of the most deserving targets
by calling 212-209-2950,
and in addition to supporting the station WBAI, which broadcasts this kind of material,
you'll get the new film, The Yes Men Are Revolting, for a pledge of $75.
If you want to pledge $125, you get that film plus a bunch of Yes Men paraphernalia,
fake newspapers, playing cards, and the like.
But the main thing is to support the station WBAI,
which is probably the only station that's going to broadcast this kind of material,
supporting these kind of protest activities, 212-209-2950.
Anyone else?
I kind of feel like it's almost like using a private space,
because you're acting privately, right, instead of what Bernie had alluded to,
like public protests, our traditional concept of it.
But it is really, I think, powerful to act privately,
but with a lot of research, and I do see that,
and I'm curious, how do you think of these things?
And you must be getting organized, so what kind of tips and advice
might you give other people that want to do the same kind of thing,
or would love to work in this way?
Ultimately, what we do is protest.
It is like street protest.
It's just that we're doing these things that we want to get into the media.
And street protest is often about making an impression in the media, too.
It's not only about the people who see the protest directly,
it's about, oh, 100,000 people hit the streets of New York today.
That can make the front page of the New York Times, and it often does,
and that's fantastic and way more effective than one of our things,
but we can do something with just two or three or four people.
So I never want to discount the importance of street protest.
Yeah, I was thinking in the context of cops bailing you out of security,
them trying to detain you.
It's not really a public action, but it's private,
and they're bailing you out in sort of a public,
like using their assessment as police officers
to help you navigate sort of the clutches of private security.
But definitely, I heard that in there,
the power in organizing privately
and springing this sort of well-thought-out plan
on a day and time of your choosing in a non-public way.
You're not telling people to show up somewhere in a forum
or gather in a large group, but rather a very targeted action.
And it's beautiful. It's really beautiful to see, and it's inspiring.
I mean, it's a big discovery process.
We're constantly learning.
Like the thing with the cops happened.
It just totally surprised us to be detained at all by security guards,
and then that the cops would free us from their clutches was just weird.
But we're constantly learning things like that, and you see...
I mean, Bernie said that we're masters of social engineering,
and no, you guys are masters of social engineering.
We're rank amateurs, and you see...
I'm not going to give away all the secrets in the film,
but you see us just fail completely at doing this,
and yet we still manage to go on and do an action.
So the message is you can do this at home.
We're not especially talented at this kind of thing.
We know what to expect. We know what not to worry about.
We know that when we do flop, it may not really be a flop.
We may still be able to go ahead with it,
but we do make giant mistakes that some people aren't competent with.
Failure is a very big part of social engineering.
It's how you get out of the failure, how you recover from it,
and what you do next.
That's really what tells how successful you will be.
Okay. I got some stories there.
Do you have any spectacular failures you'd like to share?
Oh, yeah. Right before the...
So we were on our way to the Homeland Security Conference in D.C.,
and the one where I was going to pose as the Department of Energy,
and we got a call from the PR agency we were impersonating.
We had impersonated a PR agency and promised the conference, Colin Powell,
that he was going to come speak at their conference,
and that was the slot that we were then going to show up in and say,
oh, he can't come, but here's the head of the Department of Energy.
And we got a call from that PR agency saying, who are you?
We just got a call from the conference looking for somebody named X,
whatever it was, and there is no such person,
but they gave us this number, who are you?
And we said, well, we work for you in your Florida office, I guess.
And he said, who's your boss?
And we made up some name, and he hung up.
So we're like, oh, we're sunk. We're sunk.
And then the conference called us and said, what's up?
We tried calling the PR company.
And so we just made some lame excuse and hung up,
and we were driving there with this team of, by now it was like 10, 20 people.
We were all organized. It was the worst feeling in the world.
But then about an hour later we got another call from the conference,
who then said, so are you guys arriving pretty soon?
They had basically forgotten, and the PR agency had not called them
to say that we were imposters.
So they busted you, but they forgot to tell anybody.
Yes.
Wow.
That is awesome.
Incompetence at its best.
It's just proof that you should never give up.
Always keep trying to achieve your end, and worst case scenario,
you'll get found out, and okay, you'll try something else.
When you're on the phone, you're anonymous anyway,
so the fact that you're able to appear in media and at press conferences
and not be recognized tells me that even when you're on video,
there are still ways.
Yeah.
And it reminds me of, I think the reason is that these, well,
we went and spoke with Julian Assange as part of making this film,
and one thing he said really struck with me,
that the forces of darkness are extremely well-funded,
but they're not enthusiastic about what they do.
They don't care the way we do about it, and we're not well-funded,
but we care and we marshal all of our cleverness to do these things.
I think that ties in nicely with what we're trying to do here.
I mean, we're at this station.
WBAI has been on the air for over 50 years purely through the efforts of its
listeners and its community just throwing in their support
and saying they believe it's worth keeping this going.
And you've got projects like your film actually had crowdfunding,
and I appreciate that.
I'm one of your backers.
But also it's a thing that I think is really sort of turning the tables
in the way people can get their work out there,
can get their messages out there.
Could you tell us a little bit about what it was like going that route?
Yeah.
Crowdfunding is difficult for filmmakers.
It comes because we don't have public funding of the arts like most
developed countries,
so it's a sad situation for us to have to be in.
But we have to do it, and WBAI is the same.
You have to do it, and people have to support it.
And ultimately we're looking to make a better society,
and WBAI is part of that, of course.
And in that better society we will have public funding for the arts again,
the way we did at one point and the way many other countries do.
But it's really we didn't enjoy having to beg for money.
We feel that here too, and yet we still believe that if you call
212-209-2950, pledge for the Yes Men DVD,
pledge for the extended package if you can,
and show your support, show that this station is worth continuing,
this show is worth continuing, and the things we do are worth doing.
That's what keeps us going.
That's the only thing that's kept us going for over five decades.
Join those people calling in now, 212-209-2950.
A pledge of $75 gets you your own autographed copy
of the Yes Men Are Revolting, the brand new film
about to be released next month.
And a pledge of $125 gets you that plus two other films,
also autographed, and the two newspapers and the playing cards.
Tell us something about the newspapers.
What was that like?
Oh, yeah.
Well, one of them is in the film.
We made a fake New York Post to coincide with UN talks.
But unlike the New York Post, this one tells the truth,
and it's about climate change.
It has a traditional New York Post-style slogan on the front,
We're Screwed, and shows a giant hurricane coming towards New York.
And strangely, this was well before Sandy hit,
but the picture of the hurricane that we montaged looks weirdly like Sandy.
And inside is all kinds of real news about climate change.
And you gave this out?
On the streets of New York, yeah.
We printed about 100,000 copies and passed it out on the streets of New York.
It looks so convincing, except for the fact that it's intelligent
and it says New York Post.
But how was it received?
You know, strangely, people didn't even really notice.
This was surprising.
We also earlier had printed a fake New York Times,
which announced really great news, in contrast.
Like the Iraq war was over, and higher education would be free,
there would be a maximum wage law, so CEOs could only make a certain amount.
And people were just thrilled, and people wept.
It was crazy.
It was a bit embarrassing.
This, in contrast, people saw We're Screwed and just walked on.
Like, of course we're screwed.
That's the kind of thing the Post would say, I guess.
That kind of headline.
Yeah, and people were so used to getting that message.
Well, if you're one of the people that was handed a copy of this
and you fell for it and thought it was real and threw it out,
this is your chance to get another one because they're collector's items
and they're not going to last forever, that's for sure.
212-209-2950.
If you pledge a 125, you'll get the two newspapers, the three films,
and the playing cards.
For a pledge of $75, you'll get the brand new film,
which is coming out next month, The Yes Men Are Revolting.
I'm going to play a clip from the film,
and maybe you could tell us what's in it
because obviously we can't play the video, but we can play the audio.
Hopefully I pushed all the right buttons.
Okay, we're going to play a short clip from the film,
The Yes Men Are Revolting.
The Yes Men Are Revolting
We had tipped off some reporters that a big announcement
was going to be made at the zoo.
That's the entirety of the clip, unfortunately.
It was basically a bunch of people riding a boat somewhere,
some kids singing or something.
What was that all about?
In the film, earlier in the film, we go after shell oil,
which is again actually heading to the Arctic,
the U.S. Arctic, to drill for oil.
But back then, this was the first time around,
they had spent $4 billion lobbying the Obama administration
to get the permit to drill in the Arctic.
They had some drill rigs, which they were sending out up to the Arctic.
It was a catastrophic effort.
They ran aground.
They didn't manage to actually sink any drills in,
and a lot of malfeasance.
The government actually revoked their permit to drill for a while.
After that, Shell went to Gazprom,
the big oligarch-run corrupt Russian company,
gangster company, basically.
Shell went to them to collaborate with them on drilling in the Russian Arctic.
This was a thing that we figured out to do.
We pretended to be Gazprom, and we got a barge.
We worked with Greenpeace.
One of their barges, we paraded through the canals of Amsterdam
with a giant polar bear on it,
which was supposedly Gazprom's gift from the Arctic
to the people of Amsterdam to thank them for collaborating with them.
Had this whole crazy procession down the canals
with this drugged, clearly very unhappy polar bear,
which we then took to the zoo.
You can see what happens at the zoo when you see the movie.
And the contents of the song?
The song is just actually a Russian children's song.
Oh, okay.
I thought it had special secret meaning.
And the reaction to this?
Well, a lot of befuddlement, a lot of confusion.
Ultimately, it didn't really work great as an action, to be honest.
The previous action we did as Shell in Seattle worked amazingly well.
There we put on a party as Shell to celebrate the launch of the drill rigs
and mounted this whole advertising campaign for Shell
to celebrate the drilling in the Arctic.
It had a number of levels, social media levels,
physical level, YouTube, and so on.
It was a pretty great success.
A lot of people found out about the drilling in the Arctic that way.
I mean, I'm sorry the action didn't work as you planned,
but where did you obtain a polar bear from?
Oh, yeah, right. The Arctic. That's where they live.
Oh, okay.
No, Greenpeace, Greenpeace.
And it was just the skin of the polar bear.
It was actually not even real skin.
It was like a Hollywood costume that had been given to Greenpeace
and then loaned to us.
How many people out there actually thought there was a real polar bear involved?
I think everyone.
Okay, good.
It looks amazingly realistic.
Now you know what it's like to be pranked by the Yes Men.
Okay, I'm going to play another clip here
because you have to go at the top of the hour.
Again, 212-209-2950.
It's a phone number to call.
We're only going to have these items for a limited time.
The brand new Yes Men film,
The Yes Men Are Revolting, coming out next month.
$75 pledge.
212-209-2950.
June 12th.
June 12th is when it's actually being released to the world.
IFC Theater.
You can go to the yesmenarevolting.com.
That's right.
You can see the promo that we played before,
and you can see what's actually in it.
But your calls are vital to us
because they keep us going here at the radio station.
This is all donated time, donated material,
and your donations to keep the radio station going
are what will make us still be around in five years, ten years.
I should also mention,
we're not even sure we're going to be selling this DVD outside of this.
This may be your only chance to get this DVD.
Think about that, yes.
There will be other ways to see it, iTunes and so on,
but to actually hold a DVD in your hands is a very special thing.
This is going to be a nice one.
Last time we did something with the Yes Men
where we had autographed material,
it was extremely popular.
That's why we encourage people to call in and take advantage of this.
But mostly, you should be calling in to keep the radio station going
because we just keep going.
You're in our Brooklyn studio now.
We just set it up.
We're building.
We're expanding.
A couple years ago, a lot of people were writing us off saying,
there's no future.
Well, here we are.
There is a future, and we're planning it.
But we need your help to do that,
and that's why we have these fun drives.
This is the spring fun drive.
It's been planned for quite a while,
and we hope to get a strong showing tonight.
212-209-2950 is off the hook.
We're on the air for two hours tonight,
first hour devoted entirely to this Yes Men project.
When I say Yes Men project,
I know there's got to be other projects that you guys are working on.
Yeah, we are.
Anything you can give a hint as to?
One thing we're doing is,
I mean, we are working on new projects, actually.
We're working on something that we're going to shoot in one week,
but I can't tell you anything about that, actually.
But we're also looking at 20 years of stuff that we've been doing,
and a little bit of that has made it into the three movies,
but there's a lot more,
and we're starting to edit that stuff into episodes.
Like, for example, we went and visited Julian Assange twice,
and there was this whole thing where we found out
we were being spied on by Stratfor because of a WikiLeaks leak.
Stratfor is a corporate spy agency,
and they were spying on us on behalf of Dow Chemical,
and there's a whole story in there
that we're now in the process of cutting into a piece,
and there's about 20 pieces like that, at least, or more.
That's really awesome.
That's awesome.
You've got to think about how many media outlets in this city
would devote this amount of time to something of this nature.
True.
I'm sure the media coverage that you do get is probably unintended.
Well, it actually is intended for you,
but it's when you're pretending to be somebody else.
We get media coverage sometimes, but it's cursory.
It tends to be like media coverage.
And judgmental.
Well, yeah.
I mean, it's whatever, but it's short.
It's like the American media is notoriously short attention span.
That's very familiar.
We've run into that with issues of hacking and stuff like that.
We do a lot of news on this show as far as articles
and things that are going on in the hacker world.
But when we have maybe a huge conference
and thousands of people from around the world come around,
it seems like we get a lot less press
or there's some disaster that's more important that weekend.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, it's the way it works.
And when the media operates by the profit motive,
then whatever's most flashy gets the most attention,
and you don't have time to actually delve into issues,
which is why WBAI is absolutely essential.
212-209-2950.
In the last few minutes of this segment,
so please, let's see a strong phone showing.
212-209-2950.
$75 level gets you the DVD of The Yes Men Are Revolting.
And $125 gets you that plus two other DVDs
and two fake newspapers and the playing cards,
all of which are collector's items.
And there'll be hours and hours of entertainment and education as well.
212-209-2950.
If you support free speech,
if you support this particular radio station,
if you support the hacker perspective from us here at Off The Hook,
please give a call now.
212-209-2950.
And we'll be happy to send you these as our thanks.
Now, Andy, I'm going to play you another promo,
or actually a clip from the film.
And if you could describe as best you can
what's actually going on here,
that will be beneficial to our listeners.
Here we go.
To the steps!
When thousands vote with their feet
and put pressure on government.
How stupid is it not to address climate change?
How stupid is it not to address climate change?
Hey!
We're getting locked up now.
I think this is our country!
Ah!
Ah!
Fuck!
Okay, that sounded like something unraveling.
What was going on there?
That's when we took 20 or so survival balls
to the US Capitol
to launch an assault on the US Capitol
and take it over, of course,
and not move from within or let anybody in or out
until they took action on climate change.
But it sort of failed.
And for listeners who might not have seen a survival ball,
could you describe one a little bit?
Oh, yeah.
They're giant, round...
Well, they're person-sized, except round, objects,
which are...
They showed up in our previous film,
The Yes Men Fixed the World.
We presented them as Halliburton
at an insurance conference
as the solution to climate change
for corporations, for corporate CEOs.
They basically keep a corporate CEO safe
under any climate change circumstance
so that they can keep turning a profit
even under terrible conditions for everybody else.
Fascinating. Wow.
Yeah, it's true.
Well, I have one last clip
because you've got to head out of here in just a few minutes.
But again, please keep those phone lines ringing.
212-209-2950.
Support WBAI. Support Off The Hook.
Support The Yes Men.
And get something really cool in exchange.
$75 pledge, you'll get the DVD.
$125, you'll get a lot of DVDs
and all kinds of other fun things as well.
212-209-2950.
And here is the final clip
from The Yes Men Are Revolting.
Dave, Eric Bolt from The Washington Post.
Is there a sense from you guys
that this is an inevitable thing
and so you should get in to try to make...
Okay, I'm Eric Walsh-Legel.
I'm with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.
This is not an official U.S. Chamber of Commerce event.
I don't know what pretense is your here,
but this is a fraudulent press activity and a stunt.
Who are you really?
Do you have a business card?
Are you with the U.S. Chamber?
I do.
Can I see your business card?
Can I see yours?
Are you here representing the U.S. Chamber of Commerce?
Yes, I am.
Okay, well, I work there
and you do not look familiar to me at all.
Could I see your business card?
Is this a stunt?
Are you interrupting us?
Yes, I am.
This guy does not represent the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.
Can we finish the interview today?
No.
If you would like to have a press conference,
you can have your own press conference.
What is your position?
I just spoke my position.
What is your official title with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce?
I'm the assistant to Mr. Donahue.
Okay.
This guy is a fraud.
He's lying.
This is, you know, a stunt that I've never seen before.
So if you'd like to actually talk
to the legitimate Chamber of Commerce,
I've got my business cards outside.
This gentleman, I will assure you,
does not have any business cards
and he's not legitimate.
Show me your business card.
No, show me yours.
They both look like imposters.
Do you have a business card?
It's so weird, though.
Because you don't look familiar.
Actually, this sign-in sheet here.
I'm sorry.
Excuse me, sir.
We rented this room.
Yes.
You're going to have to refund us.
Fraudulently.
It's fraud.
It's illegal.
All right.
So the U.S. Chamber is denying it now.
All right.
So maybe not.
Those are anchor people from a news station.
Yeah, the guy at the end who says maybe not
had earlier announced that the U.S. Chamber
was changing position and calling for a carbon tax.
So clearly nobody knew what was going on.
It was massive confusion.
Yeah.
And wow.
And you just basically,
the guy came in to challenge you guys.
Yeah.
And you just turned the tables on him
and challenged him and made it seem like
he was the one that didn't belong there.
I mean, really,
his barging in was just the best piece of luck
we could have possibly had.
I mean, we were going to get some attention,
but we just got a day heavy rotation
on all the networks, all the biggest shows,
because it was just so funny that this guy
with a pencil behind his ear
barges into this press conference
and there's this confrontation.
And the media like to laugh,
even the corporate media,
even the Fox News types.
They gobble up anything with a punchline
that's funny.
Well, maybe not Fox News,
but all the rest, MSNBC, let's say, CNN.
And they're owned by big corporations,
but their bread and butter is making people laugh.
So sometimes we can do that.
Wow.
Or making people afraid,
and we don't want to do that.
Bernie, you've been quiet.
Anything you'd like to add to this?
I was just splitting a gut listening to this, Emmanuel.
It was great.
They made it so much better by calling you a fraud,
and you made him look like a fraud
for calling you a fraud,
and it just became this whole circular argument
that generated so much more publicity.
So kudos for pulling off
the best social engineering judo I've ever seen.
Well, it was an accident.
It was really an accident.
He actually, we sent out a press advisory beforehand,
and simultaneously launched a virtual sit-in
of the phone lines of the Chamber of Commerce
so nobody could get through.
We had people call in
so that nobody could actually get through.
But one of the reporters
who received our press advisory
didn't even look at where
the press conference was going to be.
It said National Press Club,
but she just assumed
that it would be at the Chamber of Commerce
since it's the Chamber of Commerce,
and they have conference rooms, obviously.
So she just went to the Chamber of Commerce
looking for the press conference,
which was reasonable,
and that's how that guy got tipped off,
the head of PR,
and came barging in to ours.
That guy's reaction just encapsulates
why what you do is so effective
and how you do it
because as he's tripping over his words,
this is a fraudulent press event.
It's not even,
there isn't the vocabulary in this world
for something like you were doing.
It's just we've got the system
of people put out press releases,
people put out press conferences,
press consumes them,
and this is just so accepted
that nobody really thinks to question any of it.
So the fact that you guys did
is just so strange and unexpected,
and it just really throws a monkey wrench in things.
Thanks.
Polar bears are beyond my procurement abilities,
but business cards,
you can get them free online.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, not so hard, really.
You can get them.
It was a bit befuddling
that it was because of the business cards
that he thought that he had unmasked us.
I actually weirdly did have business cards on me
that said so-and-so from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce,
but I was kind of embarrassed
because they weren't very good.
So that's actually why I didn't pull them out
and show them to him.
Imagine if you had.
If you had business cards that were convincing,
what would his reaction have been then?
But it would have just opened you up for scrutiny.
Sorry.
Yeah, no, you're right.
You're right.
I was going to say exactly that.
It's great.
All right.
Well, Andy, I want to thank you so much
for being a part of this
and for helping us out here at the radio station.
Oh, yeah.
No, thank you guys for helping us out.
I mean, we depend on WBAI,
and if it weren't for you,
we wouldn't have a place
to actually talk about the issues.
So we've gotten a lot of attention
from a lot of people at WBAI
for a very long time,
and it's the best coverage we've got.
Well, that's good to hear.
And you out there listening to this,
if you've gained anything or inspiration
or just had a good laugh
listening to some of the things
that Andy and friends have been up to,
please support that
because by supporting WBAI,
you are supporting that kind of creativity
and free expression
and providing a forum for it to be discussed
and shared.
212-209-2950.
Again, we have lots and lots of premiums.
It's not about the premiums.
We're offering some really cool things tonight,
but what it's really about
is making that phone call
and supporting this radio station.
212-209-2950.
We have the $75 level
with the Yes Men Are Revolting DVD.
We have the $125 level
with that DVD plus two others
and some newspapers and playing cards.
212-209-2950.
It doesn't matter which premium package you choose.
The important thing is that you make the phone call
and support WBAI
so that we can keep talking about things like this
and all sorts of other things
that will come down the road in the future.
We can never predict what's going to happen next,
but I do know that whatever does happen,
it's great to have a radio station like WBAI
to get the word out.
That's something that I think people
don't realize until it's too late.
In many places, it has been too late.
Community radio stations have gone under
because of expenses, because of lack of listener support
or mismanagement, all kinds of reasons,
but we hope to keep this place going.
So far, we've been going since 1960.
I think we have the longest established format,
which is no format,
of any radio station here in New York.
You can't pick a station
that has not either moved its frequency
or changed its format in that period of time.
That says something.
That says something about listeners.
That says something about freedom of speech,
about how powerful that is.
So you can join that.
212-209-2950.
It takes a couple of minutes.
We take credit cards.
You can pay by the month if you want.
There's all sorts of possibilities.
The important thing, though, is that you make the call
because this is the time that we are asking for support.
Yeah.
Radio stations like WBAI
are really one of the backbones of the movement
that is making enormous change
and has for a very long time.
We're in the middle of a movement, of course.
Things are going to change dramatically.
It started with Occupy Wall Street
and the movements around that time elsewhere as well.
It continues and it's building.
It'll come and go in the media,
but it's because of the constant attention
to this movement that's paid by WBAI
that that's one of the reasons it keeps going.
So it's incredibly important to keep it going.
It all ties together.
We see that week after week
with whatever topic we're discussing
that, wow, this has a relation to the hacker world
or to the freedom of speech world, to the radio world.
It all kind of is the same.
We're all fighting the same battles
and sharing the experiences
and getting stronger as a result.
And this is a perfect example
of how we can all get stronger
by keeping this radio station on the air.
212-209-2950.
Please make that call now.
I just wanted to reiterate,
and we haven't emphasized this enough,
and I would just say
that this is a very formative time for the station.
We are in a new space.
There's a lot of building and rebuilding
that has yet to go on here.
And there's a lot of work parties probably
and volunteers and just a lot of the equipment
from the previous location that's not even here,
not yet out of storage.
And just even looking at the space,
how we're going to approach designing new studios
and production studios for producers,
it's all going to take a lot of work.
So this is it.
This is the beginning here,
this little, I guess, second week for us here.
Last week was our first week.
We're excited.
It's an adjustment for certain,
and definitely on the technical side,
the station is being reborn,
and your pledge goes to support
the regular donation cycle and needs here,
but especially now, we'll go to tangible things
like build-out and furniture
and the real stuff that's going to set us up
with a good foundation.
It's amazing to see it develop,
but it's developing because of you, the listener.
There's no other reason.
We don't take, and this is a little known fact,
well, it's a known fact around here,
but it might not be as known out there.
We don't take underwriting,
and underwriting is a huge source of income,
but the reason we don't take underwriting
is because it tends to compromise the programming.
Imagine, Andy, if this particular program
was underwritten by AT&T,
you think that might cloud
what we could talk about a little bit.
We're talking about various evil things they're up to
or just potential evil things they're up to
or just maybe they don't want us to talk
about technology at all.
They're the bread and butter.
They're the money that's coming in.
You got to pay attention to that.
One thing I should mention before I go, too,
is the Action Switchboard,
speaking of AT&T and telephone networks.
See how easy it is?
We have this platform called the Action Switchboard,
which is about basically going after corporations
and anyone who you feel is doing something really bad
through creative direct action.
It's a platform we've made to help you
if you have an idea or if you want to work with people
on an idea and crowdfund and crowdsource
for those actions.
We wouldn't be able to talk about that platform,
for example, if AT&T were funding this program, I think.
Yeah, and so because we don't do that,
because we don't have underwriting here at WBAI New York,
it's 8.06, and Personal Computer Show is not on this week.
It will be on next week.
But because we do not have underwriting here at WBAI,
that closes off a huge source of potential funding,
but it's because of idealistic reasons we don't do it.
And sometimes you pay dearly for idealism,
as I think we all know,
but if listeners are there to back us up,
to support us, to say, yes, this is what we want,
this is the kind of radio that we will pledge for,
then it's more than worth it,
more than worth sacrificing that.
Yeah, it's a bargain.
212-209-2950.
You paid more dearly for not having idealism.
Yes, in the end, you do.
Andy, you got to go, right?
We're going to go out with the promo again.
We're going to play the promo
because we do want to get people to call in
and we want to get them enthused about the film
and hopefully you'll be back again
before the film comes out
and we can talk more specifically about that event.
A lot of fun things happening.
A lot of fun things happening.
But I got to thank you because you're a true inspiration.
Thank you, same to you.
Thank you.
So many people, though,
are engaging in mischief now
after seeing something the Yes Men did.
And I'm sure parents everywhere are cursing your name,
but in the end,
in the end, we will be a stronger society for this
and hopefully there'll be Yes Men affiliates
all throughout the planet.
Yeah.
All right.
And WBAI will be part of making that happen.
I think we are.
I think we're a Yes Men affiliate right here.
Definitely.
212-209-2950.
You can become a Yes Men affiliate yourself
just by pledging.
Yes, we will officially knight you
with that particular title
if you give us a call.
212-209-2950.
Again, $75 pledge.
You will get the brand new
Yes Men are revolting film on DVD
autographed by both Yes Men
for a pledge of $125.
You'll get that plus two other films
also autographed.
You'll get the newspapers,
which I believe are autographed as well.
A lot of autographs here.
And you will get the playing cards,
which I actually have never seen.
So I'm going to be interested in that myself.
212-209-2950.
Any last words on this from you, Bernie?
I just would encourage our listeners
to call and support this kind of programming
on WBAI.
This is not the kind of thing you're hearing
on any commercial radio station.
If you like what you're hearing,
please call 212-209-2950.
Okay.
Last words, Andy, before you head out?
Oh, keep it up.
Got the limo waiting downstairs?
Yeah, of course.
That comes in a stretch limo
and has bodyguards all over the place.
Yeah, that's the way I see my body.
Wow.
Andy, again, thanks.
And we look forward to future projects,
seeing you at Hope in the future
and just seeing you on the BBC maybe
and whatever happens.
All right, we're going to go out with the promo
and we'll be back with another hour
of Off the Hook right after that.
Stay tuned.
So what's your name, sir?
My name is Dick Impala.
I'm with Environment Canada.
You don't really work for Environment Canada, do you?
We're in Uganda.
Here, a flood or drought means people die.
Young people are aiming to overthrow
the U.S. financial system.
We've been working with a yes man.
A yes man?
A yes man.
A yes man.
They're an activist group of pranksters.
So go towards the machine gun and then left
and you'll be at the U.N.
Everything will be fine.
It's not the way most people protest,
but it's our way to say no to corporate greed.
I'm Eric Wolfschlegel.
I'm with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.
Are you here representing the U.S. Chamber of Commerce?
Yes, I am.
This guy is a fraud. He's lying.
Can I see your business card?
Can I see yours?
Scientists are telling us this is the last chance
to make a stand.
This is Hurricane Sandy.
So what do we do?
How stupid is it not to address climate change?
How stupid is it not to address climate change?
To keep going, we've got to be part of something
bigger than ourselves.
I'm so nervous, even though I'm not doing anything.
Drilling in the Arctic, let's go.
We're pumped.
Sometimes things don't work out exactly right.
Leave now.
They're calling for a squad car.
We have to get costumes.
Oh my God.
My head is going to be right up your ass.
Ow!
Oh, sorry.
Right in the eye.
Fantastic.
Oh yeah.
You're listening to WBAI.
You're listening to Off The Hook
here on our expanded time slot this Wednesday night.
Again, The Personal Computer Show.
Not on this week.
I believe they will be back next week.
If not, in two weeks for sure.
212-209-2950 is our phone number
and we will be offering the Yes Men premiums
up until 9 o'clock.
And beyond that, if they are available
at give2, the numeral 2, give2wbai.org.
Please don't type out the numeral 2.
I know people take things literally sometimes.
It's give the number 2.
Don't type that either.
Give2wbai.org.
Just go there.
You'll find it.
And look for the Yes Men.
Look for the Yes Men premiums
and you'll find it that way as well.
212-209-2950.
That was the phone number to call
if you want to support the radio station.
And I would hope.
I would hope that everybody listening
does want to support the radio station.
What do you guys think of that?
Bernie, any reflections and thoughts on the Yes Men?
That was a lot of fun.
It says a lot about WBAI
that the Yes Men would come on this show,
on this station,
and really over the mission of the station
and what it does.
I'm kind of inspired.
I think they're kind of celebrities.
And this is just what we do.
This is what the station is all about.
WBAI is a social protest,
informing people about things,
having fun doing that.
And it's great.
So even if you don't want to pledge for a premium,
it's worth calling here just to support the station
at 212-209-2950.
Yeah.
And I'd also like to point out
that we still have available
some copies of our books from last week
that we were offering.
So for a pledge of $55,
you could get a copy of either Teach Your Kids to Code
or Beautiful Lego,
both books which we talked about last week.
Or for a pledge of $75,
you could get a package of both of those books.
Also, of course, today you can get the Yes Men DVD
for that $75 pledge.
Or you could get the extended Yes Men package
for a pledge of $125.
All excellent choices,
all of which help keep the show on the air,
the station on the air,
and things right on this planet.
212-209-2950.
So we have a plethora of things to choose from.
And we help people take advantage of that.
I mean, I'm not very good at capitalism.
I'm sort of okay at math.
But $125,
not only do you keep WBAI on the air,
which is really, frankly, the only important thing,
but you get three films of the Yes Men,
including their brand new one
that you can't get on DVD in many other places.
You get, what was it, two newspapers,
which we were calling fake newspapers,
but frankly, they're realer than the real newspapers.
And you get the playing cards.
That is just an incredible deal
just from a purely
what do I get from my money perspective.
And when you consider on top of that
that you're not buying it,
you're just giving WBAI money,
all of your money goes to WBAI,
keeps us on the air,
keeps this program going,
keeps the other programs like us going.
I don't know why you would hesitate.
212-209-2950.
Alternately, if you would like to pledge
in a bit of a different way,
you could still become a BAI buddy,
which is when you make a smaller monthly donation,
it automatically gets charged to you every month,
and you get a whole different set of benefits.
You get station premiums,
you get a BAI membership
once your donations break the $25 mark,
and you get all sorts of perks
and value to being a member of what goes on here
if you're a BAI buddy.
212-209-2950 is our phone number.
Please keep those calls coming in,
keep the radio station going.
Bernie, I was just going to talk about this for a little bit,
but you're down there in Philadelphia,
and of course the eyes of the world
are on Philadelphia right now.
Did you hear anything about that train wreck last night?
Yeah, actually, I heard about it on a police scanner
I had on and went to...
Actually, it was a streaming thing
through my mobile phone.
And I heard some sirens,
so I thought it was going on and raced up to the scene,
which is only just, really,
just a couple miles from my house here in Philadelphia.
And I got there before the air cage went up,
and it was just...
I've never seen anything like this in my life, Emanuel.
Just about a half dozen Amtrak cars
just displayed off the tracks.
One of them just looked like it had wrapped around a tree.
The engine separated from the rest of the train.
I think there were at least a half dozen people killed,
unfortunately, and a lot of people injured.
Apparently, the train was just going way too fast
around a curve in a residential area
near me here in Philadelphia.
And it just resonated with me
because most of us here on this show
have been on other passenger rail systems around the world,
and they're designed for passenger rail systems
Amtrak rides on freight rail systems.
They're not designed for passengers.
You have to go slow.
And it just breaks my heart
that this country doesn't devote the resources necessary
to safe and effective and affordable
mass rail transportation.
And it's just another example.
I hope Congress sees this
and decides to actually devote the necessary resources
to improving our passenger rail system.
What do you think?
It's just a way that we're missing out.
Every time I think about this, Bernie,
I'm right there with you.
It's like we're missing out
on what plenty of other nations have got right.
Entire regions, continents, have figured this out.
And it's still not a priority.
We still have excuses.
And I think mass transit, if there's anything to invest in,
that should be number one.
It's the basis for so much in so many people's lives.
And when it isn't maintained
and well-designed from the start,
you have things that are patched on,
things sharing systems,
like you're saying, freight systems,
and they're just poorly implemented.
And it makes me shake my head.
This could have been a lot, lot worse
because the freight line was right there,
the parking area for some tanker cars.
It missed the tankers by about 50 yards.
If it had hit one of those cars, which were full,
it would have been much more of a disaster.
But that particular intersection,
that particular curve,
I don't know if you mentioned this,
was the site of another accident, I think, 71 years ago.
Not much has improved in that period of time.
I mean, it was a different circumstance.
But certainly we have the ability
to have systems in place
to tell you when something unsafe is going on.
They're saying that the train was going 106 miles an hour
as it went into that curve.
First of all, I don't think that's even possible.
I mean, if a train hit that curve at that speed,
I think the cars would be so much further away
than where they landed.
But regardless, there are systems in place
that will prevent that from happening,
that will prevent a train from going that fast.
And I heard on the radio on the way over here
that they have those systems,
but they just didn't have them there for whatever reason.
I don't want to disagree with what you're saying
and with what other people are saying.
Of course you do. You live for this.
Go ahead. Disagree. Yeah.
No, I agree with what you said.
I think it's important to invest in our rail infrastructure,
and I think it's important to build out these new systems
that are safer and faster and all around better.
But I do also want to remind people
that the other way, or one other way,
that people get between, you know,
Washington and Philly or New York
is to drive personal automobiles.
And it is not even newsworthy
when a few people die in a car collision.
It is certainly not newsworthy
when the fossil fuels that are used to run private cars
cause climate change and direct deaths
through asthma and stuff like that.
So I don't want people to get the impression
that rail is particularly dangerous
or particularly unsafe.
I think we can and should make it even safer
and even less dangerous
to the extent that those are different.
But I don't want people to ignore
the other dangers in other ways of getting around.
Yes. Well, I dare say, though,
that if there was a car collision
that sent 250 people to the hospital,
that'd probably be on the news, too.
I'm sure it would be.
Over the course of...
How often does this happen? Once a decade?
We had a train derailment right here months ago.
We had a train collision.
We had a Metro North train doing exactly the same thing,
going around a curve too fast.
These are elementary problems
where people don't know not to get in front of a train
with their car.
The rest of the world has learned how to do...
Well, most of the world has learned how not to do that.
And as far as just going too fast around curves,
there's technology to prevent that from happening.
Why aren't we using it?
It makes absolutely no sense to me.
But if there's any good that comes out of this,
it's that this horrific crash resulted
in a relatively low number of fatalities.
Still horrible, but if this was a plane,
there wouldn't be any survivors.
And that's something people need to remember,
is that rail travel is fast and it is mostly safe.
And when it's not safe, you can usually point the blame
at lack of funding, lack of development,
lack of maintenance.
And I'm afraid that's what our infrastructure
on many levels has become,
just something that is not maintained.
So, I don't know.
There's two ways that they can go on this.
They can say, yeah, let's stop being idiots about it
and let's start funding this like we mean it.
Or they can somehow point the finger at blame
and say, well, this proves that we can't have trains anymore.
Maybe corporations should run them,
which is really ridiculous and silly.
What do you think, Bernie?
I think Mike is right.
Passenger rail is remarkably safe,
compared to, surprisingly so,
with the rickety systems we have.
I'll never forget, years ago, a friend of mine
from Switzerland was here in the U.S.
at a radio conference and we hung out in Philadelphia
and we rode the Amtrak for a while
and he was looking like he was in panic.
It's like, what's going on? What's going on?
I said, what do you mean, what's going on?
He said, the train is rocking back and forth
and making these noises.
And I'm like, that's normal.
Our trains in Switzerland don't do that.
He wasn't joking. He was really in a panic.
That's true.
Bernie, comparing anything to the Swiss train system
is really unfair.
You're right.
But most train systems don't do that.
And I always ask, why?
Why do you get slammed around
when you're on a train in this country?
What is so different about it?
Why are our cars so rickety?
Are we that poor that we can't invest
in something like the rest of civilized nations
are able to do?
It's a question of priorities
and our priorities are just off.
My theory is that we still use rail and ties
that are using like wood
and a lot of the modern systems
and European systems I've seen
and dare I say some of the track work
that's being done out in this part of the world
where you replace those with cement ties.
And I think that transition
to a modern prefabricated tie system
where it's cement
and it's going to last for a long time,
I think that's the transition that's occurring
and needs to continue to occur
to have a smoother ride
because I think the old wood railroad ties
tend to go uneven
or get kind of bumpy or rot
and then you get the sort of unevenness
especially in complex sections of track
or underserved areas
that haven't really been brought even up to that standard.
They haven't had their ties replaced
in other words very recently.
But I think that's the kind of change
that needs to happen
is that a lot of our rail needs to be strengthened
and needs to be updated from that technology.
And expanded.
We can't even get past the point
where we agree that rails are good things,
that trains are important.
Congress will fight this
and say we have to cut all the funding
and make it ridiculously inefficient
and just pour all the money
into automobiles and the airline industry.
It doesn't have to be a choice either.
When we were riding around in Germany,
we noticed how many people drive cars
and take the train.
You can have both.
And they're really in love with cars in Germany
but they have amazing trains.
They complain about their trains all the time
but come on, they are amazing trains.
We rode the slow trains, the suburban trains
as just kind of an alternative to try something else.
And even they're faster than our so-called high-speed trains.
It's just ridiculous.
I mean it's because they're right next to Switzerland.
And they have an inferior complex.
But by any other standard, they do pretty well.
I actually agree with that
because I do think healthy competition among countries
and for this country, I would say among states,
I think that is a big part of it.
Because if the French are saying,
oh, you're sloughing, your rail system is not on time,
all of this, you get run through the keyhole.
Perception is that your country is lagging behind.
And when you have an integrated network like in the EU
or like we could have here with many states
maybe competing to not be the worst section of rail.
And I think you need more of that.
The closest thing we have are French-Canadians.
Maybe they can say that to us.
But they still have to build up their own network anyway
and have a nice high-speed rail up there or Mexico
or one neighboring country to us
that can make us feel terrible about us not doing it.
That would be nice.
Right, right. They try.
212-209-2950, by the way, is our pledge line.
Please call up and show your support for the radio station
while we continue our discussion here.
I heard something on the news earlier.
I was actually watching CNN.
And one of the tragedies of this wreck
is the fact that there are still apparently people missing,
people that have not been heard from.
They don't know where they are.
Now, there's all kinds of theories as to why that is.
But the theory that was presented on CNN and accepted
was that, well, when the train was flying through the air,
a lot of things were lost, including people's phones.
So people out there might not have a way to contact people.
They actually said this.
They said this, and nobody refuted them,
that somebody could be walking around right now.
They've lost their phone.
So that means there's no way they can contact anybody.
They can't find a payphone, which is probably true.
They probably don't know their own phone number,
so they can't call.
So literally, that is how we're thinking now,
that when you don't have your cell phone,
you are completely disconnected,
and there's no way for you to stay in touch.
It's nonsense, but it's a step in the direction
of making that a self-fulfilling prophecy,
that, yeah, you lose your cell phone,
you're completely cut off from everybody and everything,
and you might as well just not be connected at all.
It doesn't take long for the anxiety to go away
if you stop using your cell phone.
It's a mental shift.
I think you just have to do that work in your head,
let go of it, and be okay without the device.
It is possible.
Yeah, I don't think that's what happened in this case,
but I think the fact that we believe
that that is a likely scenario,
when the media says something like that,
it just shows how absurd it's gotten,
that this could actually be entertained as realistic.
I think you're reading an awful lot into, like,
some idiot on CNN having to fill time
and not knowing what they're talking about.
It was the main anchor, and nobody refuted them.
Main anchor and some idiot do not contradict each other.
No, this was the reason that we weren't hearing from people,
because they were wandering around without a cell phone,
and they had no way of reaching anybody.
This was the report.
It wasn't one correspondent saying something,
and this was their conclusion, and it was repeated.
Not even an off-the-cuff solution to maybe suggest,
you know, ask a friend to call if you need to use one.
Bernie, any thoughts on this?
We really...
It's hard not to laugh about all this, but, frankly,
it's a serious situation,
knowing anyone who's killed or injured, but, frankly,
when these trains crashed, a lot of people,
they just ran away.
They ran out of their cars.
They crawled out the windows.
They crawled out the back of the train cars,
and there were volunteers taking them
to the nearest hospital or to...
There was an elementary school nearby
that was set up as an emergency place,
and I could see in all the chaos
people not getting in touch with other folks.
Right, because they're in shock,
because they're traumatized.
Yes, that's realistic,
but to say because they don't have their cell phone,
they can't reach their family and friends,
that's absurd.
This happened less than 24 hours ago,
and just because a family and friends know that they're safe
doesn't mean that CNN knows they're safe
or some master database knows they're safe.
This will all settle out in the end,
and everybody will be accounted for,
but I think CNN's explanation is kind of ludicrous.
I wouldn't want to get CNN...
Go ahead.
Speaking of master databases,
I'm worried that that's what this is going to lead to,
where people say,
you can't just get on a train,
and nobody knows if you're on it or not
because they haven't taken your ticket yet,
and they haven't taken your name at all.
I'm worried that some short-sighted people might say,
well, the solution is to just simply log everybody
as they get on, like on an airplane,
and that's missing the point entirely.
One interesting thing about this story
is that people were, of course,
on the train using their electronic devices,
and when the accident happened,
people who were crawling from the rubble and things,
they were tweeting about it.
People were tweeting or Facebooking
or otherwise posting the I'm okay messages,
photos and reports from what was happening.
One of the people on this train was Jillian Jorgensen,
who's the senior editor for politics at the New York Observer,
and she, herself being a journalist,
started tweeting things, you know,
details about what was going on as a journalist,
and she then, soon after she started doing that,
she then tweeted, I'm a member of the media,
and I feel like I need a media consultant.
I've gotten around 30 calls,
and I now know how overwhelming it is,
and now in her Twitter bio,
it says senior editor for politics
at the New York Observer.
Yes, I was on the train.
No, I don't want to appear on camera.
Like, just the flow of information
is just so weird coming out of these things now
with people using social media
and using the internet to get the word out,
but then suddenly finding themselves
at the center of things like this.
Well, you can always turn those things off,
and I think a lot of us forget that we can do that.
You don't have to read every tweet that's aimed at you.
You don't have to be on Instagram all the time.
You don't have to respond to every Facebook post,
but, you know, just being able to communicate
and being able to take control of your own destiny,
I think that's what's important,
and that's what we talk about here
on this particular program and various other forums.
Moving on, though, to other stories in the news.
This was something that I thought
was particularly disturbing.
A cybersecurity firm may have hacked
its own clients to extort them.
First of all, the use of the word hack everywhere
has gotten to the point of total absurdity now,
and I think we'll be demonstrating that.
In this particular case, this cybersecurity firm
known as Taversa,
they're still operating, by the way,
in case you're interested in having an adventure.
They offered up digital security services
to other companies.
Now, according to a whistleblower who worked there
and is now testifying in federal court,
Taversa was running a very simple and clever scam.
They basically gained access,
in this particular case, the particular case of LabMD.
They're a medical testing company based in Atlanta.
They gained access to the lab's medical files,
which, since they were a client of theirs,
they had access to in the first place.
They told LabMD there had been a data breach
using the files as evidence that,
yes, look, there's been a data breach.
Then, according to this article in Gizmodo,
they then straight-up extorted LabMD
when the lab wouldn't pay
for additional incident response services.
Taversa told the company it would then tell the FTC
the Federal Trade Commission about the hack.
Then it did. Things got even worse.
The FTC, thinking the hack was real,
went after LabMD, which ended up in a long legal battle.
Ultimately, they had to shut down.
It was basically the end of them.
Well, now this whistleblower has come forward
and things could get a whole lot worse for Taversa.
They basically are being accused now
of doing this for about 100 different companies.
They're not sure how many of these alleged
data intrusions were fake,
but it's a story that's going to continue
for quite a while to come.
Again, misuse of the word hack.
If this did happen, this company simply
cheated their customers.
Hackers don't have any kind of
exclusive on that particular way of doing business.
Yeah, this sort of security industrial complex
is really dangerous for a lot of reasons.
One of them is that there's no way to know
that the entity you're trusting and doing business with
is on the level.
Yeah, absolutely.
Bernie, anything from you?
Yeah, I was reading a story too, Emmanuel,
and it says that LabMD wasn't the first time
that this company, Taversa, created these false hacks
and made national news.
It says back in 2009, Taversa leaked a false story
pointing to Iran for supposedly stealing blueprints
for President Obama's helicopter, Marine One,
and that bogus story led to several
mainstream news media outlets, NBC, Fox News,
CNET, and others, reporting this as fact.
So frankly, I would not be surprised
if this is happening more often
in the so-called cybersecurity industry,
where there could be shakedowns and extortion
and all kinds of shenanigans going on behind the scenes.
Would that surprise you?
Well, it's an interesting parallel, what you bring up,
and blaming Iran for everything
is similar to blaming hackers for everything.
It's basically this entity that people are afraid of,
they don't understand, so no matter what happens,
it's got to be either an Iranian or a hacker
that's behind it, right?
It's believable, it's what the media is going to run with,
and God forbid it's an Iranian hacker,
who knows what'll happen then.
But on that particular note,
Islamic State, they have hackers too, yeah.
And this story came out in a news outlet called Vokative.
They said the alleged Islamic State hackers,
I guess they're from the Islamic State,
but they're only alleged to be hackers,
they released a video claiming success
in a threat that they had made earlier in the week.
I believe this was Monday.
Yeah, they issued a message to America via Twitter,
and for some reason it was taken seriously.
They said hackers on other social media platforms
promised something surprising that will frighten America.
And, well, only a few hours later,
that's exactly what happened.
Star of 19 Kids and Counting, Jill Dugar,
her Facebook account was hacked,
and the fans were outraged.
That's really the only thing I can find
that they might have done that could have concerned anybody.
This is the news that's being reported.
It's amazing that Islamic State has hackers
that are out to terrify Americans,
and that this is treated with the same seriousness
as massacres and bombings and things like that.
God forbid your social media is going to be hacked,
people are going to be sending out false tweets,
and you won't have control over your webpage.
The whole thing's incredibly silly.
I'm sure the Islamic State also has plumbers
to unclog their toilets,
so we should be afraid of all the plumbers as well.
Yeah, maybe, maybe.
Good luck selling that one.
What else?
We have this story on if your car can get hacked.
With today's high-tech automobiles,
is it possible your car could get hacked
just like a computer or a smartphone?
The short answer is yes.
This is according to ABC.
Consumer Reports got to experience a controlled hack
by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
as it researched car security.
The demonstration showed how one can be left helpless
at the wheel with a laptop hardwired to the car.
A hacker, because nobody else is going to do this,
a hacker can take control of the horn, seatbelts,
and even brakes and steering.
I mean, I don't know a lot about cars,
but I feel like I would notice if there was someone in my car
with a laptop wired in.
Well, yeah, okay.
This was done for the purposes of the demonstration,
but cars are computers these days.
Cars have computers all over them,
and you wouldn't see the computer that was hardwired
in this particular case.
The point is that with Wi-Fi connections
and ways that this can be accessed by remote parties,
I guess what they're saying is that this is possible.
This is possible when there isn't a laptop hardwired
to the car, just with a car in general,
especially cars of the future.
Jake Fisher, director of Consumer Reports,
says today's cars are basically computers on wheels.
Computers control everything, the engine, the suspension,
the seats, the mirrors, even the air conditioning.
Someone could possibly do something nefarious
to the vehicle, said Frank Barrickman
with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
But Consumer Reports says there is no reason to panic.
The benefits of these computers, they far outweigh the risks.
It's not a reason to run out and buy a computer
or a 20-year-old car.
I disagree.
I think it's a good reason to buy a 20-year-old car.
Wait, didn't we just, like a few minutes ago,
advocate for putting more computers
into train control systems?
Yeah, that's true.
It's a fine balance.
You need to be able to override these things, obviously.
If you just trust a computer, you're
going to have a situation where you're
at the mercy of bad code instead of bad people.
Also, it behooves us to just be aware.
I mean, there's this huge push now
for what people like to call the internet of things, where
your car is a computer, your phone is a computer,
your refrigerator is a computer with a cold bit inside of it,
and just every single thing is a computer,
and every single thing has to be connected to the internet
and controllable via smartphone apps.
And it behooves us to realize that, yes,
in answers to questions like in this headline,
if something is a computer, it might
be vulnerable to the things a computer is vulnerable to.
And to just expect things to not be so is a bit oblivious.
As long as humans are anywhere in the equation,
and I think we usually are somewhere in the equation,
there's a possibility for either incompetence or evil.
And somebody could do something that
could affect an automobile or an airplane or a train
or whatever if they have access to code
and can do something to it.
Or if they just don't know what they're doing
and they write really bad routines that
wind up in disaster.
I wonder if it also makes it harder to gather evidence
when something does happen if it's just software.
I mean, is there less things than someone
may be physically tampering with your vehicle,
like leaving fingerprints and so on,
or damaging your brakes or something?
The cliches of Hollywood are just
going to have to all be rewritten now.
New cliches.
We'll have room for lots of them.
It's just what bugs me is when people seem
to think that technology is going to solve all the problems.
And it can solve problems.
It can make things a lot smoother.
It can improve things.
But if you're not paying attention
and if you don't retain control, it can be a disaster.
It can be a worse disaster than anything you've ever imagined.
So I'm in the same breath reading this.
I'm reading about the automated Google cars
and how they have accident reports
over the last few years and they're not
responsible for any of them.
Great.
That's wonderful.
But when these two stories meet and when somebody
hacks into a computer, a car, and makes it do something
it wasn't intended to and you can't override it,
then it's going to be a very different story.
It ties in a little bit with the story,
I think we were talking about it last week
about the baby monitors, that people
were listening to baby monitors over the internet
that weren't their own.
And it's just another example of these consequences
of maybe we think something is progress
and we think something is solving a problem,
but is it just changing the shape of the problem
or creating new problems?
Is it something we really need to have our baby's cries
broadcast on the net to everyone?
OK.
Moving on.
Moving on.
This one takes the cake, I think.
This is from a news organization known as Team 10.
I think they're a 10news.com.
They reach this conclusion.
Hacking into someone's computer is illegal,
but hiring someone else to do it isn't.
Did you know this?
I didn't know this.
This is Team 10 in San Diego.
And they claim Team 10 exposed the dark web.
They claim to have exposed the dark web.
Thank you, Team 10, for that.
And then Team 10 found out it isn't even a crime
to hire a hacker from an illicit site.
I did not know this.
Under current law, it is illegal to hack
into someone's computer or social media account
without their knowledge or consent.
But it is not illegal to hire someone else to do it for you.
Assembly member Ed Chow has introduced a bill
that would make soliciting hackers a crime
and could result in jail time of one year.
The legislation has cleared the assembly
and will now go to the Senate.
And if the bill clears the Senate floor,
it will then go to the governor.
This is all in California.
Yeah, you know, this is just insane.
I mean, really, how do they reach these conclusions?
It's not illegal to hire somebody
to do something ostensibly illegal.
There's not a law that already covers this.
It's just fear-mongering again.
I'm fairly certain that an even moderately competent
prosecutor could get people under conspiracy laws
for this sort of thing if the underlying activity
is, in fact, illegal.
Yeah, because there are laws already
that cover these things.
You don't need new laws specifically aimed
at computers or at hackers or anything like that.
This is just Justice 101.
I mean, I should actually point out
that a pretty moderately competent prosecutor
could probably get anyone in trouble for almost anything.
You don't even need to be doing harm to anyone
or hiring hackers or whatever it is.
But the specific case of hiring,
I'm going to just use their word, hackers,
seems pretty easy.
Bernie, any thoughts?
I agree with Mike.
You can indict a ham sandwich,
and almost anybody could be prosecuted
under the phone book size volume.
Can we even say phone book size?
We don't even know what phone books
look like anymore, half of us.
There's just so many laws.
Nobody can know what they all are.
There's an email I wanted to bring up
to our listeners that we got
from one of our listeners named Michael.
The FCC put – whenever the FCC tries to
or wants to change the rules
or considering changing rules,
they put out a request for comment.
It's one of the nice things about the FCC.
They ask for public comment about
whether a rule should be changed or not.
But according to this announcement,
the FCC put out a request for comment on May 6th
about the question of removing the requirement
for carriers, mobile carriers,
to connect 911 calls from phones
that don't have an active account.
If you don't pay your phone bill,
your phone can still call 911,
which I even keep a couple of spare phones
around in different places with a charged battery,
and I stick a piece of paper between the battery
so I can pull it out,
and it could last for years that way.
And it's just an emergency phone.
But I don't think the FCC should allow carriers
to stop connecting calls from phones
just because somebody stopped paying the bill.
What do you think about this?
To be clear, Bernie, you mean they shouldn't
just stop connecting 911 calls?
Obviously, they're not going to connect
calling your friends, yeah.
Yeah, and this is worth thinking about
because disconnected phones are commonly used
to contact emergency services when they're needed
because everyone knows you can,
and it can be a valuable resource.
There are organizations that collect people's old phones
just to distribute them to people in need of that,
for example, in shelters and things like that
who don't have the wherewithal
to get their own phone hooked up,
but they need a phone that they could call 911
or the equivalent on.
And 911 itself came about
because it was seen as part of the responsibility
of the people who ran the infrastructure
to provide the service that everyone needed
and that was vital to society.
And the people responsible for the cell phone infrastructure
now should maintain the same responsibility, I think.
What is the justification?
How are they going to sell this idea exactly?
How they're selling this?
I'm looking at the call on federalregister.gov now
for comment, and their summary is,
the commission seeks comment on whether the obligation
to transmit 911 calls from non-service initialized
or NSI devices still serves a public safety objective.
Because the cumbersome call validation methods
extant when the rules were adopted are no longer in use,
and because of the current ubiquity
of low-cost options for wireless services,
the commission proposes to sunset the obligation
to transmit.
English, Rob, English.
What the hell are you talking about?
They're basically saying it's a lot of trouble
to maintain the ability for these phones to call,
and they're also saying public safety representatives
have indicated that NSI devices are frequently used
to make fraudulent or otherwise non-emergency calls,
causing a significant waste
of limited public safety resources.
So they're saying that because people can use these phones
to call 911 when it's not an emergency,
people shouldn't be able to call 911 from any of them,
even when it is an emergency.
You know, it's just astounding to me
that this can actually be said with a straight face,
that they want to get rid of something so vital
and essential to anyone to have that ability
just because it's too much trouble.
Unbelievable.
Well, okay, we have to get some more phone calls coming in
because we've been talking for a while.
212-209-2950, we are getting some people
pledging for the books as well,
but why don't we run down everything that we're offering
for the last few minutes of the show?
For the last few minutes of the show,
we're still offering some copies of
Teach Your Kids to Code by Bryson Payne,
our guest last week,
a great manual on teaching your kids to code
and learning yourself in the process.
In Python, I believe, right?
In Python, yes.
We also have the book,
and you can get either that book or the book Beautiful Lego
for a pledge of $55.
Beautiful Lego is about a compendium of Lego artwork
that showcases all sorts of Lego projects
that are impressive and that are cool for different reasons
and that you could do.
$55 for either of those books or $75 for both of them.
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
55 times 2 is not 75.
What are you trying to pull?
I'm trying to say we're terrible at math
or we're just really generous with our contributions
and we need to get these books into the hands of people
who want them for their donation to the station.
I mean, we could charge, you know,
double $55 for two of them,
but that doesn't change what we're making
because we're not making any money on this.
This is all donated,
and we are just trying to keep the station going,
and to do that, we need to offer these at a level
that people will be happy to pledge at.
I mean, we should point out
that if you think it's too good a deal
and you would like to pledge more,
we are certainly happy to take your pledge.
Absolutely.
And thank you for that support.
212.
Even if you have a good month or whatever.
212-209-2950.
Please call that number now
if you feel this is what you want.
And a lot of people wanted it last week.
Apparently, we still have a few left over,
so while supplies last, 212-209-2950.
Yes, indeed.
55 for either of those books, 75 for both,
or for $75, you can get the DVD,
The Yes Men Are Revolting,
when that comes out later this year,
involving our guest Andy,
who we had on for the first hour of the show,
and the Yes Men.
And for a pledge level of $125,
you will get that DVD,
plus you will get their previous two movies on DVD,
plus you will get their collectors' fake newspapers
and all sorts of other Yes Men goodies.
They will be autographed by the Yes Men,
and that will all go in a big pile to you
as your thanks for supporting the station,
for supporting the show,
for doing what you can to keep this crazy experiment
of WBAI going past 55 years.
Wow.
212-209-2950.
That's our telephone number.
Please call it now,
and let's have a last flurry
in the few minutes that we have left
for this special two-hour edition of Off the Hook.
We're not going to be on next week.
We'll have a one-hour show in two weeks,
but we won't be on at all next week,
so I guess we're getting the hour from next week this week.
Yeah, whatever.
It works out.
It evens out in the end.
Time travel is not one of the premiums we can offer you.
No, it's not.
Definitely not.
212-209-2950.
We want to see those phone lines light up
so that we know people are out there
listening to Off the Hook
and caring about WBAI
and interested in the things that we're offering
because we worked hard to get these.
A lot of people have invested much time
and energy in donating these to the radio station,
and we'd sure like to see that accepted with enthusiasm.
212-209-2950.
And of course, if you're not feeling like
going for any of these premiums,
you can still donate.
You can go to givethenumeral2wbai.org,
select Off the Hook as the particular show
that you are supporting,
and there are some other WBAI premiums
and other things that you can get.
You can be a BAI buddy,
where you donate a smaller amount on a monthly basis
and get all sorts of other perks.
And of course, any contributions you make
that total over $25,
you're also a member of the station.
You get a say in what goes on here.
You get newsletters.
You get all sorts of perks of being a member of WBAI.
So call 212-209-2950
or go to givethenumeral2wbai.org
and do what you can to keep us going.
Only here will you be able to listen to stories
like we've been talking about in the last few minutes
about how hackers are being blamed for everything
and how news stories simply are not getting the facts right.
You won't hear that anyplace else.
And the buddy system's a really good way
to know you're donating and you're involved,
but you're not going to have to remember
to make that commitment every time we have our fund drive.
So that's a great way to incrementally contribute
to the station over the course of a year
or however long it is you choose to be a buddy of the station.
But either way, we really do appreciate your support.
And for this special two-hour show,
we try our best to put stuff together
people will be interested in,
stuff that's going on that's topical that will be a draw.
But the real important thing is supporting the station
and the move here and our continued progress
as far as bringing interesting stories and conversation
to the hacker world and to the community.
212-209-2950 is our telephone number.
Again, we're here for only a few more minutes
and we'd like to see a strong flurry at the end of the show.
Our email address, oth at 2600.com,
if you have comments or things that you'd like to share with us,
maybe you have some critique as to some of the coverage
that we've been giving to various stories,
please write that down.
Send it to us.
Maybe we'll even read it on the air.
212-209-2950 is our phone number.
And right now we hope a lot of people call that number
and pledge support to the radio station.
You know, I have this news story here
that we didn't have time to get into tonight.
Verizon is going to buy AOL and with it the Huffington Post
and Engadget and TechCrunch.
And these outlets, you know, I don't love anything.
I don't love everything that any of them has done,
but they have done from time to time, like,
good stories on net neutrality and the NSA
and stuff like that.
I don't know what's going to happen
under them being owned by Verizon.
I can tell you one thing that is not going to happen
and it's WBAI being owned by Verizon.
They have no interest in buying us
and we have no interest in being bought by them.
212-209-2950 is the only way we can stay on the air.
We are not going to get the big Verizon grant, folks.
Weren't we worried when Huffington Post was bought by AOL
what was going to happen to them then
and now AOL is being bought by Verizon?
How much more can happen?
I mean, eventually it's just going to be one or two companies
and maybe one will buy the other.
There are people working on these sorts of plans.
I mean, not that exact plan.
What will we talk about then?
That's what I'm worried about.
Well, one thing I think we forgot to mention
is that your donation to BAI is tax deductible.
Nobody mentioned that.
No, nobody mentioned that.
You're right.
212-209-2950.
Make your tax-deductible donation to the radio station
and keep WBAI going for another 55 years.
That was the only other thing that I could think of saying.
I wanted to say it.
I forgot.
There are all kinds of other stories
that we didn't have time to get to
and we can keep going about all of these things,
but I think you get the general idea
as to what we're about and the kinds of things that interest us.
The one thing I really would like to do
is take listener phone calls
and hear what's on the minds of listeners.
We can't do that right now.
A, we don't have the infrastructure for it.
We will.
B, it's a fundraiser, so we can't
because we're taking phone calls for the pledges.
So make that investment.
Call 212-209-2950, make your pledge,
and in a few weeks we'll be able to take phone calls
and have normal shows and get stronger week by week.
You may always send suggestions to OTH at 2600.com.
We like to take those suggestions seriously
and we sometimes even read them on the air.
We do, we do.
Even if they're not so serious, we take them seriously.
So make your suggestions and submit them
and we'll take a look and we'll improve
because we want to try new things here.
This is a great new space.
It's this rebirth almost of the station
and well, if there's something we've touched on
or other things you'd like to hear about
or that you think we could cover, please let us know.
I just want to reiterate that
because we're always up for good ideas that people have
and things they want to share.
Absolutely, and thanks to everybody who did call in tonight.
If you haven't called in yet, please do so.
Every call makes a difference.
Every pledge makes a difference.
It all adds up to a number that allows us to continue to survive
and that's what it's all about.
It's surviving here on the FM dial in New York City.
It's something that so many people said was not possible
and yet we did it and we're continuing to do it.
Here we are in a new facility in Brooklyn
and we're doing all sorts of other things that people say is not possible
and I think we're going to continue doing that.
That's the hacker spirit.
212-209-2950.
Bernie, any last words from you?
I just think it's great we were able to be on for two hours tonight
and we won't be next week but the following will be
and it's not too late for listeners to support WPAI.
212-209-2950.
Thank you for listening and supporting this station.
Yes, again, thank you for that
and we will see you in two weeks at our usual time of 7 p.m.
and personal computer people,
either next week or the week after that,
will be back here on WPAI New York.
This is Emmanuel for Off The Hook.
Boy, it's been a long night.
We'll be back in two weeks, as I said,
and we look forward to getting more calls
and getting your emails and hearing your voices
when we do take phone calls again.
Until then, keep your eyes on what's going on
and question everything and let us know what you find out.
Good night.