Due to the mudslide in the area you are calling, your call cannot be completed at this time. 
Please try your call later. 
Thank you for listening to Off the Hook. 
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall. 
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cut. 
We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would. 
Bondi-li-bomper, the best, expect the worst. 
I hope that's understood. 
Bondi-li-bo! 
Bondi-li-bo! 
We'll be right back. 
And a very good evening to everybody. 
The program is Off the Hook. 
Emmanuel Goldstein here with you. 
Joined tonight by Kyle. 
Over here. 
And we have over in Skypeland, we have Rob T. 
Firefly. 
We should have Rob T. 
Firefly. 
I don't hear anything except a bit of a buzz. 
Okay. 
How about Alex? 
Alex, are you there? 
Yes, I am here. 
Good evening. 
Okay. 
You're very far away, though. 
You sound very far away. 
Am I closer now? 
Not really, no. 
It's a horrible buzz, and you're very low. 
Are we regressing? 
I don't know. 
Kyle, we have a new setup. 
So this is what happens when we get a new setup. 
Things stop working. 
Yes, Alex? 
How about now? 
You're still way too low. 
I'm not sure what's going on. 
Kyle, is there a way we can go back to the old way? 
That would be very nice, because right now, it's a bit of a mudslide, as the lady says. 
And I don't think we can hear Rob and Gila at all. 
Rob, Gila, either of you speak. 
Okay. 
It's curious that we're not hearing them, but we are hearing Alex. 
That's curious. 
All right. 
You guys, figure this out, please. 
I'm going to read some listener mail, because this is not what I was planning. 
This is another exciting edition of Off the Hook. 
Kyle, would I suggest just go back to the old system, and we know that works. 
We are not on next week. 
That might be cause for celebration for some people. 
I know it is for me, with this kind of setup. 
It's kind of traditional, I guess, for us to read listener mail before we go away for a couple of weeks. 
Actually, it's not traditional at all, but it's tradition now. 
Dear Off the Hook, I just wanted to point out my 2018 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid still has an AM radio, even though this car is almost an electric vehicle and has to deal with the same type of chopped high current motor control circuits as other full electric cars need to deal with. 
After listening to your rant about how AM radios are being discontinued, I would fully agree that car companies are gaslighting us all by pretending that AM radio is no longer feasible. 
They probably really just want to save a few pennies by removing the functionality from their radios. 
In any case, I have absolutely no problems at all getting an interference-free reception in my 2018 vehicle, which has three electrical motors slash generators of up to 160 kilowatts, which is pretty substantial. 
So shame on the gaslighting of the car manufacturers. 
And by the way, I'm having a blast listening to your reports about artificial intelligence. 
I am really afraid, though, that some goons will start believing AI way too much and cause all sorts of havoc. 
I think it's already beginning. 
Just like almost all call centers are being replaced by so-called intelligent chat agents, also to save money, of course, very soon we will become complete slaves of the machines and only a handful of hackers will be able to actually achieve something useful other than watching sports and drinking the Fox Kool-Aid. 
Have a great day. 
Can't wait for next episodes of Off the Hook and Off the Wall. 
Thank you very much, Klaus, for that wonderful letter. 
And here's another one. 
And, folks, we do get all your mail, by the way. 
We don't read all the mail on the air, but we do get it. 
So please don't feel discouraged if you don't hear your email to us right over the air, because we do have other things to talk about as well. 
Our email address, though, is OTH at 2600.com. 
And, again, please fill our inbox with all kinds of comments, positive, negative, informative, whatever. 
Hi, guys. 
Thanks for the awesome program, Off the Hook. 
I've been a listener for some years now and find many of your conversations and guests on the program very interesting. 
I'm located in Denmark, so I have yet to listen to a live program like The Caller from Bulgaria. 
Yes, people listen from all over the world. 
So it's hard to say who listens live and who doesn't listen live, but all of our shows are archived. 
So I almost forgot you were in the room. 
How are things going? 
I believe our guests will be joining us here right now. 
Should I press the button, though? 
Yeah, give it a try. 
Okay, I don't hear the buzz, which is a good sign. 
Let me ask Alex if he's there. 
Alex, are you there? 
I am here. 
And you sound better. 
Rob, are you there? 
Rob's giving me a hard time. 
Gila, are you there? 
Okay, is it possible something's muted on your end? 
Because it seems kind of weird that we can hear Alex and we can't hear you and you're on the same screen. 
No? 
Okay. 
Yes, Kyle, I know what that finger means. 
What are you trying to tell me, Kyle? 
Rob seems to be muted. 
Okay, well, can he unmute himself or can we unmute him? 
Can he hear us? 
Rob, nod your head if you can hear us. 
That's Gila's head, but okay, fine. 
I'll take it. 
Somebody is muting somewhere. 
I'm going to continue reading this letter while you guys figure out how to unmute something. 
Continuing, I love the old going down memory lane conversations and I was very excited to hear about Space Rogue and Loft. 
I didn't really know exactly what you were talking about saying Loft. 
It was first when I looked into Space Rogue online, I noticed what it was. 
Sent me down memory lane to a time when my high school was using some kind of Citrix remote desktop. 
So we all had our own desktop and personal folder on the high school servers by fiddling around. 
I noticed that when you logged into your Citrix account, Windows credentials, through shared computers, your login info was saved on the local machine in the NTLM slash SAM format. 
I can't really remember exactly. 
However, I found out about Loftcraft, Loftcrack that is, at that time, and I gathered all the SAM files from around all the shared computers ended up having so many personal logins, including the system administrators for the school network. 
Not sure you want to be telling us this, but hopefully the statute of limitations is over. 
I didn't have a motive to use it for anything, so it just ended up as bragging rights. 
That was the only thing I really knew about Loft. 
Rebel talking about old phone systems keeps reminding me of that day back in the 1990s when I figured out I had around 10 to 20 seconds free call time before a phone booth would shut me down. 
So I called a friend telling him, I'll be disconnected in 10 seconds. 
I'll call you back. 
And I had a conversation through there about nothing, really. 
I think we've all had experiences like that. 
And for those who are puzzled, yes, we do have a phone-in section that follows this program over on YouTube, and Rebel can often be heard there calling us and telling us about various phone connections. 
Anyway, just because it was fun, there's a reason to do these things. 
It also reminded me that that day my mind was blown when I noticed I could call up a number simply by pressing the cradle switch. 
I had the very same experience as a kid when I realized I could flash a switch hook, and it was the same thing as dialing. 
Like, you know, flashing it twice was like dialing a two. 
It was incredible. 
And, of course, I dialed 11 to see what would happen, and I wound up getting an operator angry. 
So, yeah, that was back in the day when there were 2600 meetings in Denmark. 
You know, there might still be. 
I don't think they're listed, but there might still be. 
And if there are meetings or if somebody wants to start meetings, they should contact us. 
You can go to 2600.com slash meetings to see all the meetings around the world, generally to take place on the first Friday of the month. 
Or you can mail us, meetings at 2600.com, with your ideas for a meeting in your area. 
Anyway, continuing with this letter here. 
At the time, I didn't think I knew enough to attend. 
It was a long trip for me, so sadly I never went. 
And now the nearest meeting seems to be in Sweden. 
Well, we do have meetings in Stockholm. 
I know that, and they're doing quite well. 
So if you're close to a meeting in a different city, by all means, go there. 
But if you want to start one in your own, feel free to do that as well. 
Moving on to the topic of Tesla blocking out AM radio signals, which seems to be a popular one. 
I heard the program while I was driving around in a borrowed, older, fossil-powered car. 
I hooked up my phone to the stereo through Bluetooth and noticed that the higher the RPM the car had, that I had a high-pitched tone that was getting higher and higher, like a disturbance in the signal. 
It was funny how I noticed that while we were talking about AM blockades. 
So there seems to be something about it, not only with electric vehicles. 
Also, here's a request. 
Well, this is actually, I think this letter might have come in a couple of weeks ago because it was asking us to improve our volume on YouTube. 
We did have an issue with the volume being very low, and Kyle fixed that issue. 
But do we have a new issue now, Kyle? 
So maybe this complaint... 
No, it's fine. 
Everything's fine. 
Are you sure everything's fine? 
Well, you sound good, but you're in this room. 
In fact, Rob's here. 
Everything's fine. 
We're all rooting for it. 
I'll believe it when I hear it. 
Rob, are you there? 
No, he's not there, Kyle. 
Why would you lie to me like that? 
He's moving his mouth, but nothing's coming out. 
I honestly don't know what's going on here. 
And Alex, you're still there, right? 
Okay, I know that you did that intentionally. 
You're just moving your mouth. 
I can tell when you're messing with me. 
Yeah, you can't pull one over out of you. 
No, not at all. 
Anyway, that nice message came from Christian over in Denmark. 
And there's one more letter I'd like to read. 
This actually pertains to you, Alex. 
It's one of a few that we got. 
There's a brief mention on the April 5th overtime episode of London's Battersea Power Station when Alex recounted his preferred method of commuting across London. 
I know some of you are Pink Floyd fans, so I thought you might be interested to know that the Battersea Power Station is featured prominently on the album art for Animals. 
Thank you, PRD, for that. 
And that is true. 
In fact, if you have occasion to look at the album cover for Animals, I always thought it was a painting because that's how interesting the photograph is. 
But it's a photograph of a power plant, and it just looks amazing. 
And I did not know that was in London. 
So next time I'm in London, definitely I want to head over there. 
Yeah. 
And I'll tell you, though, to me it's somewhat disappointing because the Battersea Power Station, it's not really a power station anymore, but they've created essentially a giant shopping mall in the inside that still has some of the old industrial components scattered around it. 
And it's just there for commerce now. 
It's shopping. 
It's a bunch of high-end shops. 
I feel like they could have done so much more with it. 
It could have been more artistic. 
It could have been more technical. 
It's just shopping now. 
Yeah, well, that's how things turn out. 
Okay, so this is really disruptive. 
We can't talk to half our people. 
I'm not sure why. 
And Kyle is basically just focused on this. 
Can you give us an update, Kyle? 
What's going on? 
Yeah, I'm just troubleshooting a little bit of the connection details, trying to get the audio back. 
This all worked before. 
What happened? 
We upgraded? 
We upgraded. 
That's what we did, right? 
Yeah, we made a couple of changes and things. 
Yeah, well, you know what? 
Fine, fine. 
This is sort of what I want to talk about anyway, and I guess I can just talk to Alex about it, but is there a way we can raise Alex because he's very low? 
That would be nice. 
You know, the whole issue of upgrades has been bugging me for quite a while because you want to hold on to the bits of technology that you're used to. 
You know, you want to hold on to that old copy of Windows NT or the flip phone or whatever. 
You don't necessarily want to dive into something new, especially if something old is working. 
But at some point, you have to. 
At some point, you have to make that change. 
It's almost unavoidable. 
And that's what happens to every single one of us when dealing with technology, whether it's telecommunications, whether it's computing, whether it's emerging technologies. 
We always have to change our behavior, change our habits, let somebody else design something better. 
And some of us move blindly. 
Some of us move without thinking it through. 
We do it because we're told to. 
We get that quite a bit. 
You have to upgrade. 
You have to change your version. 
You have to do this. 
Well, now that no longer works because you just did that. 
And that's what we're seeing right now. 
That's what happens. 
It's unavoidable. 
And it happens with every system there is. 
We have a system here in the United States. 
And I dare say it's time that system gets some sort of an upgrade, whether hardware, software, whichever. 
It's unavoidable. 
You have to upgrade things. 
You have to change things. 
And that is what we are, I think, focused on on a daily basis in this country because we have a system that was designed hundreds of years ago and we don't seem to know how to upgrade, how to update, how to make vital changes. 
You know, I'm referring to really frustrating things. 
Tonight, for instance, we were expecting the Supreme Court to tell us if the abortion pill would be accessible to the millions of people who need it. 
Because we have a system where one judge in Texas who has no conception of science can decide for the entire country that we will not have a drug that has been on the market for 20 years and has been proven safe over and over and over again. 
That is our system. 
And the way that we deal with that system, we appeal to another court, which is stacked with people that the previous president has put on that court that will side with him in the end. 
And then, of course, there's the Supreme Court. 
We all know what happened there. 
We're going to the same people who overturned Roe v. 
Wade and asking them, hey, can you do something to help people get access to abortions? 
This is the one group of people that you should not be going to to ask that. 
But that's our system. 
Our system also has such gems as the Electoral College, where twice in my lifetime, a president has been put in power having substantially less votes than the loser. 
And that's supposed to protect us. 
We're supposed to feel good about that. 
And I don't feel good about that. 
I don't feel protected. 
I feel like we basically are using something antiquated, something that is really due to be modernized. 
That's one thing. 
There's gerrymandering. 
There's taking a state such as Wisconsin or North Carolina or, as we've seen recently, Tennessee, and basically ignoring the will of the people and allowing others to have complete control, whether they have a slight majority or whether even they're in the minority. 
They are able to control everything, such as who speaks, what bills get passed along, how elections will work. 
And it's almost insurmountable to get past that because they've redrawn the district so that they win every time, even when they lose. 
That's our system. 
There's senatorial representation where a state like South Dakota gets the same amount of representation as California or New York equal with a fraction of the amount of people. 
And because of that, they have so much more power. 
The right wing continues to have an incredible amount of power because of this unbalanced representation. 
It's based on land and states, not people, not population. 
And then, of course, we try to interpret things that were written back in the 1700s, try to imagine what the Founding Fathers would say about things like AR-15s when there's no possible way we could know that, there's no possible way they could understand that. 
We need to change. 
We need to upgrade. 
We need to modernize our system. 
And like the most stubborn person who holds on to their old hardware or refuses to update their old software, we refuse to move ahead. 
We have it set up so that we can't move ahead. 
We absolutely cannot move ahead. 
We are not even able to pass the Equal Rights Amendment. 
in this country. 
We can't even give women equal rights, let alone everybody else who has been victimized. 
We have it set up so that a constitutional amendment is next to impossible. 
It's gridlock. 
So, I don't know if we can upgrade our system anymore, or if we just need to find a new system. 
Maybe we need to throw out Windows and get Linux. 
Do something completely different. 
Because otherwise, we're stuck. 
We're stuck in the same place we've been for decades. 
And it gets worse and every single year it gets worse in one way or another. 
Well, did I kill enough time? 
I just basically had a stream of consciousness there where I've been frustrated by the news, by what's been going on. 
I imagine a lot of other people are as well and people feel helpless. 
can't get any kind of gun control passed in this country because it's blocked in so many ways. 
We just never, ever seem to advance. 
And I think it's because we just don't know how to upgrade. 
Hopefully, there are people who can say something now. 
Why am I seeing two Robs and Giles? 
They have backups of one another and it's... 
Okay. 
It's incredibly complex but basically they've switched that on and they might be able to join us now. 
Okay. 
Well, I'll let you guys speak. 
This is going to go down as one of our worst shows ever, isn't it? 
Alex, I can hear you. 
Why aren't you talking? 
Well, I mean, I'm here. 
I was giving Rob and Giles the opportunity to speak but they seem to be present but not voting, so to speak. 
Okay. 
Well, you know what? 
I said a lot of stuff. 
It's good I can hear you because I just attacked your system. 
Your system is the legal system. 
So I want you to explain to me why we're not upgrading, why we continue to run this decrepit, ancient, insecure system that serves nobody and is a relic of centuries past. 
What do we do? 
How do we have one person, one uninformed judge in Texas able to control the entire country? 
What kind of system is that, Alex? 
Come on. 
Well, I'll tell you what kind of system is. 
I disagree with you and not surprisingly about, you know, being in need of an upgrade and antiquating things. 
I mean, look, it certainly is an 18th century innovation here but it served us well for quite a long time and... 
All right. 
You got... 
Hang on, was that... 
Hold on a second, Alex. 
Was that Rob's voice I just heard? 
I think it was. 
Okay, and now I hear Gila. 
Can someone explain to me what the problem was? 
We would if we could but we have no idea. 
All right. 
That's the one thing I don't want to hear. 
We have just swapped a bunch of equipment to another computer. 
We installed Skype on that computer and so now we're seeing you through there and you can hear us finally. 
Can we at least say if it was on this end or there? 
I got a bunch of updates from them too last minute, so... 
We may get a bunch of updates. 
Kyle, what do you mean? 
After we had started the call, I was adjusting some of the settings on an alternate system and as I was closing those windows and we had some disruption, I closed the program when I went to reopen it. 
It forced another update. 
So we were... 
You're saying while... 
My stupidity plus their insistence. 
Well, you keep saying they without saying who they is. 
Skype. 
You didn't say that. 
I thought it was Rob and Gila who were updating us. 
No, no, no. 
All right, so while I'm bitching about people needing to upgrade and update and things like that, Skype was doing that to us and completely messing up our program. 
A little bit, yeah. 
That sounds like a lot. 
All right. 
Alex, please continue and then we'll introduce Rob and Gila and hopefully that helps me to contribute. 
Well, my point was going to be and will be now is that I think updates and upgrades are built into the system here. 
It's called the common law and we have the system whereby the law is supposed to evolve in one way or another by virtue of judicial decisions interpreting a law. 
The judicial decisions themselves become part of the body of law that is interpreted by lawyers, by litigants, by Congress, by other judges that becomes precedent. 
It's known as stare decisis and I think this whole predicament really underscores the importance of the federal judiciary to the evolution of this nation and what happens to a country when the judiciary is stacked with, you know, for lack of a better word, incompetence. 
I could have used a much nastier word but I didn't. 
I got to disguise the federal judge so I guess have some respect for him in some manner. 
Why? 
Why do we always have respect for people who hurt us, who are acting irresponsibly and ignorantly? 
Why? 
Well, look, I think the real issue here is that we have a whole bunch of Trump appointees sitting at the district court level. 
That's right. 
What happened in this particular case was a clear instance of what's known as forum shopping whereby a litigant goes around looking in a country where there is, you know, a judge or likely to draw a judge that would be favorable to the litigant's argument. 
And now, as I understand it, in this particular area in Texas, do you know how many judges there were? 
No idea. 
No. 
Okay, you see, that's a problem with the system right there. 
Yes, exactly. 
Yeah. 
As I understand it, I think this was the only judge that was sitting in that particular district who was a Trump appointee who's known to be very favorable to these types of arguments. 
So, they file a lawsuit there, it goes up to the Fifth Circuit and who decides it? 
I think the case was decided by two other Trump appointees at the Fifth Circuit, the appellate level. 
This is like using R-login, you know, this is like something just so stupid that, of course, you would patch it immediately and have a more secure, fair system and we never seem to get past that. 
We never seem to protect ourselves. 
The system, I think, has been working really, really well for hundreds of years because look at where we were when it came to human rights and the evolution of the common law and the protection of individual rights, even things like privacy rights, right? 
I mean, privacy is not found in the Constitution. 
We've talked about this many, many times. 
You have to essentially derive it from the penumbras and emanations of other amendments, right? 
You know, the Fourth Amendment doesn't have the word privacy in it, but because of judicial decisions, including decisions like Roe v. 
Wade and Griswold v. 
Connecticut, decisions that underpin the right to abortion and the zone of privacy inherent to family planning, that was, you know, how the law evolved and it became the law of the land and this all worked really, really well until It didn't. 
Well, until Trump came to the office and he started stacking the courts. 
Right. 
So what's our protection against that kind of abuse? 
Congress. 
Congress is supposed to check those appointments. 
That's a bad answer, man. 
That's No, it's not. 
I don't think it's a bad answer. 
The Congress that is there now, that's going to be our savior. 
That's going to be what modernizes our system and upgrades it. 
Well, Congress was asleep at the switch. 
They should have put up more of a fight when Trump nominated these incompetents to the federal bench. 
You know, that's their job. 
Their job is to be a check on the executive branch. 
It's a system of checks and balances. 
Right. 
So these guys being appointed to the federal bench, unfortunately, they are appointed for life. 
So perhaps a way to get around this then would be to not appoint judges for life anymore. 
And that happens in some Article 1 courts like the U.S. 
Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces. 
That's the Supreme Court of the military for which I was a judicial law clerk when I graduated law school. 
Those judges actually have 15-year appointments. 
They're not appointed for life. 
They're federal judges but they don't sit for life. 
So maybe that's a way to solve this is to not make it a life appointment or to make it easier to remove a judge perhaps for something like incompetence. 
Or something like what Clarence Thomas has been found to have done. 
Basically lied and cheated and taken bribes. 
And we can't do a damn thing about it. 
You know meanwhile he's going to make more terrible decisions and we're powerless. 
Now you know you say they should have put up more of a fight. 
These are the same people that were on Trump's side that were appointing all these judges in the first place. 
They're not going to put up any kind of a fight. 
They're part of the package. 
Well I think that you know that's a defeatist attitude in my opinion. 
I think that we should be looking to conquer us to stand up for the individual rights that we have to make sure that they're they're not further eroded by the federal judiciary. 
I think the problem with Congress right now is that they're too obsessed with their own image. 
They're too obsessed with social media. 
They're too obsessed with the next sound bite that they're going to get on the air that they are not paying attention to the work of the Congress. 
And a lot of the work is to appoint federal judges or to oppose federal judges. 
And I think that they should have done a better job during the Trump administration of opposing these judges maybe using the filibuster because this is what happened. 
You get this guy this incompetent guy in Texas who makes a ruling that then affects the entirety of the United States. 
I think we might have well hang on I'm not sure who you're saying had the power to stop this. 
I'm pretty sure Democrats didn't have the power to stop it. 
Are you saying they did? 
They probably could have with a filibuster or put a lot of a stink about it or make it a national issue. 
But look these are not really sexy things that politicians want to talk about. 
It doesn't get you a gigantic Twitter following. 
It doesn't get you on MSNBC. 
But I think it's equally important as the things that do. 
Because these federal appointments have such lasting consequences on the entirety of the nation that it's difficult to underestimate the power of the federal judiciary. 
I mean it's up to the president to appoint Congress to make a decision about the appointment basically to vote on the appointment of these federal judges that then act as a check on themselves. 
And that's how the constitution was designed. 
The system of checks and balances. 
And right now you have a judiciary that is stacked with the political appointees in essence of a president that is not in office and is under indictment. 
It's pretty extraordinary. 
Yeah and nothing you said is telling me how it's going to be fixed just how it's going to keep getting worse and how the abuses are happening. 
This is the problem. 
We don't seem to have a method to modernize and repair damage. 
We're just stuck with the consequences of some really bad decisions and some really bad people. 
Almost every country in the world updates their constitution. 
We haven't done that. 
We're loathed to do that. 
If you try any kind of amendment to the constitution we'll not go through unless it's an amendment that says God bless America and nothing else. 
You will not get it through. 
You will not have change. 
I mean don't you agree that change is one of the most important and positive things that we could wish for? 
I'm not talking about just blindly changing just for the sake of it. 
I'm talking about basically progressing. 
I know progress is a dirty word these days but learning, advancing, being more inclusive and fair. 
I mean we've turned into a nation where these are things that we avoid, we don't embrace and I'm not seeing anything that gives me hope that this is going to be solved without a major change. 
I think that's probably correct but I think it's a problem that we should have been able to foresee a couple of years ago and like I said people don't want to talk about these issues because they're not really sexy until they become a big problem like they are right now. 
Yeah well they are a big problem and I know we'll get emails saying oh you're being political again. 
Unfortunately this is the kind of thing that affects everybody, that affects our lives. 
I mean the gun issue by itself, you just go back a couple of decades and you know so many people were warning that we were going down a very dark road. 
We went down that dark road and now we're in a dark place and now we don't know how to get out of it and I honestly don't know how you're going to ever turn the society into something positive where you don't have more guns than people and where you don't have mass killings constantly and where you're not basically looked at in horror by the rest of the world. 
You know this all started around the Reagan era because we lived with the Second Amendment and with the words of the Constitution for centuries before that not completely without problems but certainly nothing like now because it was misinterpreted by the Supreme Court, it was misinterpreted by politicians, it was misinterpreted by a lot of gung-ho gun enthusiasts and now we have a situation where everybody is afraid of everybody else and you just, how do you turn that off? 
How do you possibly stop that? 
You know, sometimes there is no solution in the current system. 
Sometimes you have to do a major reset, get a new computer, you know, just, I'm not sure what I'm advocating for. 
All I know is that it's a major problem right now and, you know, just, it's accentuated by what we are seeing in the news today where we're waiting for the very people that destroyed Roe versus Wade to decide the future of another part of abortion rights. 
You know, the one group of people that we know are not going to get it right. 
So, it just seems like we're perpetual victims and we don't have a way out. 
Well, it's a good time to throw a lot of analysis and information that we have gathered and observed in some of these areas and the strategies and use as many of the ideas and tactics as we can to take hold of a kind of society that is a little bit safer because certainly, you know, having these antiquated attitudes and fostering this kind of social cavalier-ness towards proliferation of weaponry is itself just self- it's destructive and we should triage it. 
We should treat it like the crisis it is when it's an acute situation but with as much intelligent, you know, thoughtfulness and creativity that we would put towards any other problem or big crisis we face. 
You know, I guess what I'm impatient with are just the inevitable comebacks of, yeah, it's a terrible system but it's better than any other system. 
No, it's not. 
It's not better than any other system. 
There are systems that are better, that are working better, where people are happier, more prosperous, have more modern equipment at their fingers and have just as much, if not more, freedom of speech. 
So we can't keep going to that mantra of, yes, it's the best system ever. 
You know, maybe it had the potential at one point to be the best system ever but it sure isn't going in that direction now and we need to face that. 
We need to face that fact and if we want any hope of achieving that, we need to address the failings and the problems and realize that it's not simply, you know, signing petitions and losing by less. 
You know, it's basically an overhaul. 
It's a major reboot. 
It's something that we have to all take a look at and realize that something is not working. 
Go ahead, Alex. 
I don't entirely agree that we need a major reboot. 
I think we have a three-part system and one-third of that system was asleep at the switch or was completely ineffective and I think what happened there, and I'm talking about Congress, of course, because what happened there during the Trump administration was that there just wasn't a check on Trump. 
Everything was such a whirlwind. 
Everything was so crazy. 
But the system is designed not to have a check. 
That's my point. 
Well, no, it's designed to be a check and it wasn't, I think, an effective check if Congress is supposed to check the presidency, right? 
Look, the Republican Party is not going to check the Republican Party. 
We've seen that time and time again. 
And the justices that he appoints, that the Congress that supports him basically confirms, they're not going to check that either. 
So the system basically is designed to bolster the system, but not necessarily check itself. 
I agree. 
In theory, that's what's supposed to be happening. 
But in practice, I don't see it. 
Well, it was in theory and in practice up until the Trump administration. 
That's when everything changed. 
That's why I think Congress abdicated its responsibility to become a check on the executive branch. 
And when Congress failed to exercise its authority to become a check on the executive branch, that was when we that was why we have this result that sounds and looks and feels a lot like tyranny. 
Right. 
And that's because the system failed us for that period of time. 
And I think it was because the executive branch was so powerful, exerted so much political influence in such a weird and unique way that the Republicans didn't know what to do with themselves. 
I think up until Trump became the Republican nominee, they were adamantly opposed to him. 
The statements of Mitch McConnell talking about Trump were incredible. 
The fights that he had with Ted Cruz. 
Republicans, abhorrent as many of them are, I think would not have confirmed a lot of these federal judges if Trump was not the political powerhouse that he was with respect to the constituents in their districts. 
So I think that this crazy unchecked power of the president led to Congress being asleep at the switch, not paying any attention at all to when these federal judges were appointed. 
And now we're going to be feeling the effects of it, not just with respect to this decision, but I think with many decisions for many years to come. 
Go ahead, Gila. 
Alex, I absolutely disagree. 
I think that Congress and particularly the higher echelons of leadership in the Republican Party were so excited to have consolidated this bit of power and to get like they've been laying the groundwork for what they did for decades, right? 
Watching things happening at the local level, moving to the state level, moving to the federal level. 
They've been planning this and lining up judges for decades. 
And all of a sudden they have this unfettered ability to get in and do it. 
They didn't. 
They didn't abandon their responsibility. 
responsibility. 
They decided they had another responsibility entirely. 
And watching it all happening now, watching the the watching this all bear fruit. 
Now, with everything that happened in Florida today, and I am sorry if we discussed this earlier while we were having our technical issues. 
This is a scary time to be an American person or a person in America, for that matter, if you're not American, if you're an expat who happens to live here. 
A quick story from our absence. 
Over the last couple of weeks, we were out of state. 
We were on an airplane and Rob was wearing a T-shirt, says abortion rights are human rights. 
And a flight attendant came up to us and said someone had complained about Rob's shirt. 
Wow. 
And we were at 30,000 feet somewhere over the central United States. 
And the flight attendant said, number one, he's sitting in front of you. 
You can only see his back. 
Mind your business. 
But also, what do you want me to do, Karen? 
Do you want me to ask him to change his shirt in the middle of the flight, Karen? 
And the flight attendant was just shocked that someone had tried. 
She's like, he has the freedom to say what he wants to say. 
Free speech exists on this airplane. 
But it was shocking that that was even an issue. 
I mean, it's a cute shirt. 
It's a nice color green. 
But the idea that somebody would be offended and complained to an authority figure, about five words on a shirt. 
Where are we? 
Well, I'm a little confused. 
The flight attendant said that he has the right to his opinion. 
Was she referring to Rob or to the person complaining? 
She said to the person who had complained, this man has the right to wear whatever shirt he wants to. 
Okay. 
Mind your business. 
You're sitting behind him. 
So who was calling whom? 
Karen? 
Oh, the flight attendant was referring to the person, the woman who had complained. 
Oh, okay. 
Okay. 
I get it now. 
Well, yeah, that is something. 
And kudos to Rob for having the guts to wear a shirt that says something basic like that. 
But we need to do more things in that vein. 
And I don't think we are nearly enough. 
I mean, I've seen instances of it. 
What happened in Tennessee was so inspirational. 
And I wasn't expecting it to come out of a place like Tennessee. 
And that's educated me as far as where hope can spring. 
But that's what we need. 
We need individual people to engage in acts of courage if we want to see the change. 
If you wait for the system to do it, it's not going to. 
That's why we need to take control of it and modify it to our advantage, you know, in an intelligent way. 
Look, you know, you can say the system worked great. 
Let's equate it to a web page. 
You know, it was fine. 
It served everybody until somebody found the vulnerability and got in and did something that made it able to be abused and not serve its purpose. 
Well, what do you do at that point? 
Do you say, OK, well, you know what? 
It's going to sort itself out and the people that abused it will go away. 
Or do you upgrade it and fix it and address the security issues? 
And that's what I'm saying we need to do. 
We need to figure it out. 
I don't have the answers. 
I don't know exactly what that means. 
I'm just trying to identify the problem and say that the system is broken and it's not going to fix itself. 
Go ahead, Rob. 
This is also something that I particularly want to hear from listeners to this program, people in the hacker community, people in the activist community, people who are listening to WBAI. 
I want to hear your ideas out there for things we can do because things are broken right now. 
Social safety nets are completely broken. 
In more states every day, people aren't able to get the access to the health care they need or be who they are in terms of the trans the trans stuff that's going on in Florida right now. 
And I want to hear your ideas out there for ways that we can ensure that people who need these services, for people who need this information, for people who need basic sex education information that schools will now not give them, what are we doing to preserve access to that information over the technological resources we have, the social resources we have, the activist resources that we have? 
How can we make our end runs hacker style around what they're trying to do to oppress people? 
Well said. 
Alex, did you have more? 
Yeah, I mean, I do think that, you know, things need to change in that we need to figure out a way that we can deal with, I think, the residue of the Trump administration and the federal judiciary. 
I mean, I obviously I respectfully disagree with Gila about, you know, what Congress did. 
I don't think the Republicans wanted Trump in office. 
I think that, you know, maybe you were right when, you know, they saw that there was a power vacuum there and they took it and ran with it. 
But I don't think that they subscribe to the same basic values that Trump does. 
I mean, I think he's a totally different animal than most of the Republicans. 
And I don't think that the federal judiciary has been perfect in this country by any means. 
We've had some pretty terrible decisions in this country come down from the Supreme Court over the ages. 
But for the most part, we've been moving in the right direction for a really long time, up until last summer when Roe v. 
Wade was overturned. 
And I think that was a harbinger of things to come and what we're experiencing now. 
I think that portends, I think, a really, really rocky road. 
And it shows you the absolute critical importance of the federal judiciary as a bulwark for our work, democracy. 
During the Trump administration, I can't tell you how many times we talked about the strength and resilience and fortitude of the federal judiciary in blocking the things that he wanted to do. 
Now that he's stacked the judiciary with his people, they're doing his bidding. 
It's not a surprise. 
And it's not it's not based on justice. 
It's based on politics. 
And I think that's the main difference, because when when courts were blocking his his early attempts to do things, those courts were based on justice. 
And what he stacked the courts with were people who would do what he said for the most part. 
And that is the difference. 
That is, you know, you say that that Republicans basically don't want the same things that Trump wants. 
I disagree. 
I think they do. 
And I think they can hold their noses and deal with somebody like Trump to get what they want, which is the same thing that what he wants. 
Other than that. 
Yeah, they have nothing in common, but they don't care. 
You know, fundamentalist preachers will line up next to Trump, even though he doesn't stand for anything they stand for, because he'll get them what they want. 
So it doesn't matter what he says, what he does, his actions, his crimes. 
If it gets them what they want, they'll be his allies. 
Go ahead, Gila. 
Exactly. 
He was a means to an end. 
And I think part of why, despite everything about him, the Republican establishment at that time saw that he didn't have any concept of who judges should be. 
So we're like, hey, we have this list from the Federalist Society. 
You need judges. 
We got judges. 
You have power. 
We want power. 
Let's work together to make this happen. 
And it was kind of the shirt over the mud puddle for them. 
It was a way to get from point A to point B. 
And now we're going to be living with the repercussions of this for a really long time, unless we can figure out a way around it. 
And that's what we as hackers can do, is figure out ways around problems. 
And that's why, you know, I wasn't planning on talking about any of this. 
It was our technical problems that sort of pushed me in this direction. 
But, you know, it's a good parallel. 
You can see how things get completely messed up if certain things go wrong. 
And that's what we're facing with now. 
We're faced with now in the real life world. 
And I think we need to address it as if it were an operating system or an outdated phone or an outdated computer. 
What do we do? 
How do we move ahead and stop saying that this is fine, it's going to fix itself because it's not going to fix itself. 
And I don't know how much more evidence we need of that. 
And, you know, it's it could get a lot worse this week because the Supreme Court just kicked the can down the road a little bit. 
I don't have much faith that they're going to do the right thing on this particular issue or on other issues. 
And, you know, here's a story that we're going to have to go in a couple of minutes, actually, because our our time is almost up. 
But I just saw this story come out earlier. 
The headline reads, Texas could push tech platforms to censor posts about abortion. 
They're considering a bill that would make it illegal to provide information on how to access abortion. 
So, you know, this is going well beyond their crony and limits and restrictions. 
And now it's it's in the world of speech where you won't even be allowed to talk about this. 
The bill would require Internet service providers to block Web sites offering content that basically talks about about abortion or how to get abortion pills. 
It would permit anyone to sue a person who shared anything about how to access a medical abortion. 
It's almost funny. 
It's almost a farce, but it becomes more real every week, it seems. 
And I just wonder, where will we be in a few months, in a couple of years if we don't do something, if we don't fight back? 
Yeah, it'll become something that is ever harder to access. 
And for all of the things that were stopped and slowed, I mean, American government is supposed to have checks and balances and run slowly in general. 
Things take time. 
We're used to that, the deliberation. 
There's been no deliberation, though. 
It's been a stalemate. 
And things have been slowed, except for these things that, as we laid out, were put in and arranged in key ways by lobbyists for a very narrow set of issues. 
And now they've caught this, they've felt this victory and are wielding ever more devolving rules and guidelines that alienate and make access for everyone, not just this narrow group of people, impossible. 
And these kinds of things are going to make just these normal medications something that require puzzles and cryptic things to have any possibility of getting a hold of. 
And that means that we're out of our time for this week. 
I'm sorry. 
It went so fast and we won't be on next week. 
So we'll be back in two weeks and we'll be on off the hook overtime at the top of the hour, eight o'clock. 
Join us on channel 2600 or click the link that is on 2600.com right now. 
We'll talk about more things. 
We can continue talking about this. 
I'd like to get to the story that I never got to about paper magazines dying. 
We never, that was the main topic for tonight, but as far technical snafus, we talked about technical snafus, but you know what? 
It worked. 
I think there's a lot that we have to unpack here and discuss and figure out. 
And hopefully you can do it with us. 
Write to us, OTH at 2600.com or join us at eight o'clock on YouTube. 
You can even call us. 
We'll show improvement next time. 
Oh, I hope so. 
I promise. 
No, this, this was all part of the test. 
Yeah. 
We're going to talk about this later. 
Sorry. 
Good night, everyone. 
  And welcome everybody on YouTube as we continue the conversation on Off the Hook. 
I appear to have made it, Kyle. 
I think you made it as well. 
Yep. 
Let's see if we have a less catastrophic beginning to things. 
Gila, are you there? 
I am here. 
And Rob, I can see half of your head. 
I also am here. 
Okay. 
And Alex, I believe that's you on the other side. 
It is. 
Okay. 
This is much better. 
Things are working now. 
Anyone have any remaining comments? 
Because I had to cut people off because our hour went by so quickly. 
I have a couple other stories I'd like to get to. 
And Alex, you seem to be reading something important. 
Oh, no. 
I think we should move on from the abortion issue. 
Yeah. 
Well, let's talk to our callers, I guess. 
Yeah, that's true. 
Yeah. 
I wanted to talk about this story that a bunch of people sent us from a publication called Techno... 
How do you pronounce this? 
Kyle, can you pronounce this word? 
Techno... 
Technologizer. 
Technologizer. 
Technologizer. 
Okay. 
Now, that makes sense. 
The end of computer magazines in America. 
Are we going to pick up the damn phone or are we just going to let it ring all night? 
Put somebody on hold. 
If somebody's going to call us before we give the phone number out, they're going to wait on hold. 
So, that's what we're going to do. 
But yeah, this issue or this publication, online publication, I believe. 
Yeah, it has to be because they're talking about the end of printed magazines. 
I doubt they're a printed magazine. 
I'm going to read the opening paragraph. 
The April issues of Maximum PC and Mac Life are currently on sale at a newsstand near you, assuming there is a newsstand near you. 
They're the last print issues of these two venerable computer magazines, both of which date to 1996 and were originally known respectively as Boot and Mac Attic. 
Starting with their next editions, both publications will be available in digital form only. 
The article goes on to basically say that there are no more printed computer magazines. 
And, you know, it struck me because there's a picture of a newsstand filled with computer magazines. 
And we're there, too. 
2600 is right there. 
They address that. 
They say it's possible to quibble with this assertion. 
2600, the hacker quarterly, has been around since 1984. 
It can accurately be described as a computer magazine. 
But the Digest-sized publication has the production values of a fanzine. 
And the content bears little resemblance to the slick, consummary computer mags of the past. 
We don't take that as an insult, right? 
We're not offended by that. 
I love a fanzine. 
Yeah, because we are a zine. 
And we certainly don't want to be the slick, consummary computer mag of the past. 
We're not like that. 
We never were. 
And I think we should keep our production values to ourselves. 
Yeah, yeah. 
We value our production very, very, very much. 
Well, I mean, I don't know. 
Just the tone. 
I don't know why I'm reading a tone into this. 
But the publication has the production values of a fanzine. 
It sort of feels like that's a put-down. 
It does. 
It's like you're being tucked down to a little. 
Well, I mean, what's a fanzine as opposed to a zine? 
What's the difference? 
I think I'm taking offense at fanzine more than anything else. 
More than zine. 
Yeah. 
A zine is like respectable. 
And wide-ranging. 
Absolutely. 
But a fanzine, that sounds cheap, you know? 
And contrived. 
I think fanzine is a good thing because in the world of sci-fi fandom and things like that, for generations, the fanzines have been the things put together by the readers, put together by the enthusiasts, and not by some big company that's getting rich off of it. 
So yeah, I like being a fanzine. 
And our readers do put it together. 
Our readers are writers as well. 
So, fine. 
It just feels kind of weird to call it a fanzine. 
I just figured that was like something for, you know, rock bands or stars of one sort or another. 
Yes, Alex? 
I mean, I think it's a silly way to describe the magazine. 
I don't think there were a fanzine by any means. 
I mean, I don't think it fits. 
I think it's used in a derogatory manner, but in a way that's illogical and doesn't make any sense. 
I think that, you know, they're obviously talking about, you know, the production value or the, you know, the manner in which the magazine is put together, which, you know, they have no idea. 
They have no idea about, you know, the, I think, the history of the magazine, why it looks the way it does. 
And I think maybe that there was, and there's no shame in this whatsoever, being what would be known as a zine. 
I think a fanzine just, frankly, doesn't make any sense. 
But 2600 being a zine back in the day, that was the type of thing that, you know, would be put out in some kind of underground manner, right? 
Right. 
You know, a zine about communism or workers' rights or something like that, right? 
Something where, you know, if you worked in an office, you created a zine and you went in after hours when nobody was there at two o'clock in the morning and you used a photocopier to mass produce your zine and then get it out to people, you know, in some underground manner. 
And I think you did do that. 
That's almost exactly what we did. 
Yes. 
Exactly. 
Right. 
You know, back in 1984, when the magazine started, it was a zine and it still had, and it had the look of the zine. 
And I think that's an aesthetic that has persisted throughout the magazine deliberately. 
It's not a fanzine. 
It's not a zine. 
It's an aesthetic. 
I don't know. 
I think we're a zine. 
I'm just not sure we're a fanzine. 
That's right. 
I think that's right. 
Well, a fan of what then? 
Yeah. 
The fan, what is the fandom? 
I think Rob kind of said, like, okay, this works in certain subcultures and so forth and genres of literature or subgenres where people have an affinity for a certain type or a certain story or look to a story. 
But I don't know. 
It doesn't give us the breadth. 
It sort of narrows the scope. 
I do think you can critique the production without knowing the history of the production. 
I don't think someone has to know the whole history in order to have the right to say something to judge us. 
Go ahead, Rob. 
I'm looking at the photo in this article on technologizer.com, and they put a photo up of the magazine rack at Barnes & Noble, and 2600 is there. 
Right next to it is a Raspberry Pi thing and Make Magazine. 
But there's also, right next to 2600 is this big, slick-looking, like, corporate-looking thing, and it's labeled in huge letters, Hacker's Manual. 
Yeah, what was that? 
Where did that come from? 
Yeah, I don't know what this is. 
I've never heard of Hacker's Manual magazine, but it's next to PC Gamer, and it's just very entertaining. 
It could be something that starts with another word that you're only seeing half of. 
Maybe. 
But another story from our recent absence. 
We were at a big grocery store in the Midwest, and this grocery store was huge, and it actually still had a magazine rack, which is not something you see often anymore. 
And in this magazine rack, 2600 was there. 
Wait, we're in a supermarket? 
I thought we got out of the supermarkets. 
No, it was a supermarket, but it was the previous issue. 
It's not the current issue. 
Okay. 
Maybe they're sold out of the new issue. 
Maybe. 
That's weird. 
Okay, you'll have to tell me later what supermarket it was. 
You know what? 
Tell everybody what supermarket it was so people can find it. 
2600 Magazine is available in the magazine's section of the Woodman's West store in Madison, Wisconsin. 
Oh, it's Madison, Wisconsin. 
Okay, well, anything goes there. 
You know, you can sell 2600 in a laundromat there, and it'll be popular. 
It's a college town. 
So, yeah, of course. 
They break the rules. 
I have a bit of an update, though. 
Okay. 
That's disturbing, that update. 
What just burned down? 
Just wanted to give you a taste of what was outside my window. 
Alex, you know, out of courtesy, mute your damn fire engine while Gila has an update. 
Thank you. 
Sorry. 
Thank you. 
It's fine. 
The Hacker's Manual appears to be a special edition put out by Linux Format Magazine. 
Okay. 
And they put one out manually. 
So, there you go. 
What do you mean they put it out manually? 
How do you not put it out manually? 
Oh, annually. 
Okay. 
They put out an annual manual. 
Yes, it's an annual manual, Emmanuel. 
Okay. 
You know what? 
Let's just end that right there. 
But I think some of the aesthetic and the choices lend to the staying power, especially when you're not a slick ad-taking magazine. 
Well, yeah. 
That's the thing. 
We don't have ads. 
So, therefore, we don't depend on ads. 
And because we don't depend on ads, when people stop buying ads, we're fine because as long as people keep buying the magazine for what the magazine is, a magazine without ads, we'll be all right. 
And, you know, we're facing some crap right now with Amazon, with them deciding to stop distributing magazines. 
We're trying to sort things out where we can have a presence there, but also control most of it ourselves and have our readers control most of it for digital publications. 
We're talking about digital publications now being under threat. 
Everyone was basically, oh, okay, you know, dead paper or dead trees, that's ending, but there'll always be a home in the digital world. 
Well, not really. 
First, Google decided that printed magazines weren't real magazines, and they would decide what constituted a magazine that they would carry. 
And that basically screwed over all the small publishers. 
Now, Kindle's doing something very similar. 
And there are many other stories like that. 
And there's only a few gatekeepers. 
Yeah, it's a mentality that basically punishes the underdog. 
And, you know, back in the 90s when there were zines on borders, bookshelves everywhere. 
And these are, you know, the chains that took over for the independent stories, put them out of business, and then the chains went out of business. 
So the whole thing has been very, very frustrating. 
But this kind of article is both frustrating and also kind of inspiring as well, because, you know, we're the only survivors, apparently. 
And that's, it's a little scary. 
It's like, it's like driving around in a phone company truck that we've repainted ourselves to look like old school telephones, a telephone company, playing with dialed telephones and payphones and realizing we're the ones that have all of this now, because the phone companies lost interest. 
They lost interest in payphones. 
They lost interest in, and basically most of the things that the phone company was known for, you know, the whole network, the in-band signaling network and rotary phones and just all of this history that now, for some reason, people in the hacker community have more control over than anyone affiliated with a phone company, because we valued it. 
We saw it as something that was, you know, unique and worth preserving. 
And since they don't care about it, we're the ones preserving it. 
And that's fine. 
That's fine. 
I'd rather it be us than nobody. 
Yes, Gila. 
I did just have a thought that kind of ties back into the previous conversation and also some of the other stuff we were kind of dancing around but not really talking about. 
I think that there is a very real, there's reality to the idea that it's hard to be what you can't see. 
And the fact that the world keeps trying to hide things in the hopes that if people can't see it, they won't want to be it. 
And I think that's relevant because if the whole idea of the corporate technological world is keep looking for the new shiny thing and part of the hacker mentality is about repurposing and reusing and making the best and the most of what you actually have, they want people not to see that so they can't be that. 
And so I think that's a huge part of it. 
And I'm sorry, I'm still kind of stuck on Florida, but it's important to be able to see it so you can be it. 
And I think that's a really important, you know, the scrappy spirit of 2600 Magazine could inspire anyone to do it themselves. 
That's what I have. 
On a smaller scale. 
I don't care about the scale. 
I just want that particular spirit to be there. 
And if we can inspire that, there's nothing more we can ask for than to inspire people to do things like this. 
And it's doable. 
It's doable. 
If you believe in yourself and if you're persistent and somewhat annoying, you can do all kinds of things. 
There was a comment actually for this article about the death of paper computer magazines from somebody named Psy, who says, I do indeed, quote unquote, quibble with this assertion in response to the article. 
In its obviously absolutist form, the article title promotes. 
The article title, again, is the end of computer magazines in America. 
2600 has a dedicated, if specialized audience, releases periodically in each quarter, still in print, has no current plans to stop Dead Tree production, and it's paid for by subscriptions. 
This is the definition of magazine. 
Just because you personally dismiss it because of vague, hand-wavy, arbitrary narrowing of your definition of a computer magazine doesn't make it less so. 
Thank you so much, Psy, spelled S-Y-E, for getting us. 
It really matters. 
And that's just awesome to see. 
Rightly rebutted, this article is. 
It's true. 
It's true. 
There's a broad definition of all of that. 
When you talk about these consolidation issues, that narrows the variety and volume of alternative and independent sources, even flyers at the door for local events or posters and stuff. 
You lose that when you lose independent bookstores and centers of knowledge and community. 
And then when large corporations are making sort of broad policies, oh, we can't have a community bulletin board here in the store. 
We have to homogenize everything. 
And now we're going away because we can't afford to exist and so forth. 
It's really, really predatory. 
And in a thing like information, I agree that this isn't truly the end. 
I think the publishing world is transforming and taking on and specifically computer and special interest magazines maybe are becoming a different thing than they were as far as being broadly available for selling hardware and so forth. 
But the appetite for information or physical periodic magazine subscriptions or just a way to convey information without the electronic form, people find novelty in that. 
And I think it's fluctuating and it's changing forms and we're sort of adding a lot of the and embracing a lot of the digital aspects. 
But going away forever entirely, yeah, it won't be what it was. 
I just don't, I feel like that comment really nails it. 
It's that it's taking on a different form, but these things are still here. 
Yes, yes, definitely. 
I wonder too, you know, how one of the complaints of being in the big bookstores was that our magazine, since it's smaller than others, was always getting buried, you know, and put in back of those other magazines and hidden on the shelves. 
Well, now that there's nobody else on the shelves, do you think it can just be all 2600 now or we'll just have a lot more visibility? 
I mean, it's hard to throw out bookshelves. 
So, um, I'd like to think that you'll see more of us. 
Like a whole row. 
Why not? 
Well, we've done that before. 
Many times, many of the time we have, we have gone into bookstores and rearranged their shelving to make us stand out a little bit more because they certainly weren't doing it. 
And a lot of our readers have done the same thing. 
We, we, we thank them for that. 
Shall we go to our call? 
Who's been on hold now for a long time. 
That's what, that's what happens when you call the number before we give it out. 
And I'm giving out the number now, 802-321-4225-802-321-HACK. 
Yeah. 
I was going to say, give that number out, um, once more, but I think that, that it only helps the call cause it sort of, it allows it to ferment a little bit and it gets a little bit of like extra flavor, you know, it'd be a better call. 
Tell yourself that. 
Uh, you know, it's, it's customary to wait for a greeting. 
So can we do this? 
Can we do this again? 
Let's, let's, let's, let's come in again. 
All right. 
So hold on. 
It's rebel. 
You know, it's rebel. 
All right. 
I just gotta get ready. 
And we have our first caller. 
Good evening. 
You're on off the hook overtime. 
Yes, Emmanuel. 
Rebel. 
It's rebel. 
Everybody. 
How, how are you? 
Yeah. 
That's enough of that. 
What's, what's going on today? 
Calling from the hacker space and we have, you never left, did you? 
You've been there the whole week. 
Yeah. 
The whole week. 
And we have Rick here. 
We've also, you've what now? 
Did you hear Rick? 
Did I hear Rick? 
He was at the 26th meeting. 
No. 
Um, you're confusing me. 
Well, he was at the meeting, but he's working on something now. 
Okay. 
Well, that's what happens. 
I just want to, did you get your bike back? 
Did you get your damn bike? 
Yes, I did. 
You did. 
Yes. 
Wow. 
So, how I got it. 
It does work. 
I just want everybody to know that you just have to devote a couple hours to it every day and what you wish for will come true. 
Right. 
But it wasn't what you suggested. 
It was the fact that my other friend who, uh, you know, that I know, he gave me the person's phone number, but the person who took the bike, he, he didn't pay his bill and his phone was off or something or he said he lost his phone. 
And, but eventually he found it and texted me on WhatsApp and, uh, told me the bike is safe and I got it. 
And his phone, I was. 
Wait, wait, wait. 
You're confusing me here. 
So you had the phone number last week. 
So you're saying that the guy didn't pay his bill and the phone got disconnected. 
So it was kind of useless to even have the phone number. 
So who gave you your bike back? 
He did. 
Who? 
I had the phone number, but he. 
Your friend or the guy who took it? 
He had the bike. 
Okay. 
The guy who took it, he said he paid his bill and he finally texted me and said, you know, I have your bike and, you know, it wasn't a question of him not paying his phone bill. 
It's a question of him riding away with your bike and not coming back. 
What does it have to do with his phone bill? 
I wasn't able to contact him. 
That's the problem. 
Yeah, but you weren't able to, you weren't able to contact him the further away he got from you. 
That, that was the issue. 
Did he explain why he stole your bike in the first place? 
Well, he said that it got stolen from him, but he was able to manage to get it back. 
It got stolen from him. 
How does that, how do you even lie so badly? 
You, he, let me say I have this right. 
You lent him the bike. 
You saw him right away. 
He did not come back. 
Is he claiming that as soon as he got out of eyesight, somebody jumped him and took the bike and he's been working ever since to get it back? 
Well, he said he left it somewhere and somebody stole it and, you know. 
Yeah, but why didn't he give it back when he, why didn't he just return it? 
Well, because he ran out of power and the person abandoned it and he found it and that's when he called me. 
No, that's not what I'm asking. 
I'm asking why he didn't return it to you when you lent it to him. 
I don't know. 
I would think you'd be interested in that. 
I think that would be the first question you would ask him. 
Well, the thing is that I was trying to find out what phone company his cell phone was and I wasn't able to, but he said it was. 
You seem more interested in that than the actual facts about this. 
I want to know, did he ride off to go pay his phone bill and just like. 
This isn't about a phone bill. 
This is about stealing a bike. 
Am I the only one who gets that? 
I do. 
I get it. 
You know, Rebel, you give us something like this. 
You give us this, this dramatic series of events. 
We're going to want some answers. 
We're going to want to know why certain things unfolded the way they did. 
We don't care about his phone bill. 
Well, I didn't either, but he, you know, I was trying to contact him, but I couldn't. 
I was trying to find out where he lives and everything. 
Right. 
But eventually he contacted you or somebody contacted him and he gave back the stolen bike, but, but never explained why he stole it. 
Right. 
Yeah. 
It just seems like that's a big gaping hole in this whole series of events. 
I don't know. 
But anyway, um, I was trying to find a cricket wireless. 
I could have, uh, find out if that just by then, but, but anyway. 
What have you, what have you learned from this rebel? 
What will you not do again? 
Oh, no, I'm not. 
I put a tractor, uh, uh, tile on the bike and I registered it with the, uh, you know, the, the precinct and so that they have the serial number and you know, so, um, police know where you are at all times. 
It's win-win. 
Right. 
And, uh, you know, when I, when I went to T-Mobile day, I entered his phone number. 
They didn't have it. 
They said they didn't have it. 
Uh, I went to Verizon. 
They didn't have any information on that number. 
I went to AT&T. 
They didn't have any information. 
So he said that his phone bill was cricket phone company was cricket wireless. 
I don't know. 
I should have. 
Thank you. 
But anyway, I'm at the hacker space. 
Yes. 
Manual. 
Uh-huh. 
And I would, yes, I've been playing with radio. 
Too big Bernie. 
I've been around in a month. 
Um, I've been playing with radios. 
Like, I got this handheld CB transceiver, 40 channel CB, um, you know, that I can transmit and receive. 
It's just five watts. 
It's got, like a little rubber antenna. 
I'm, you know, I'm in the city here and, you know, I can hear other, you know, channels, people on other channels, but of course, like, they can't hear me because they're too far away. 
They may be like, they have pellets made of more powerful radios, like 10 watt or 20 watt radios. 
But if, uh, today I went up to the Hudson Yards building, which is all the way up, like, you know, the one on 30th street for the big building that they go with, with that ledge outside that you can go on the hundredth floor and go out on the ledge. 
Yeah. 
So I went out on the ledge. 
Seeing people do that, it makes me queasy looking at it from a distance. 
I went out on the ledge outside and I looked, turned on the CB radio. 
I was talking to somebody in Bushwick or Bensonhurst or somewhere in Brooklyn. 
Wow. 
Talking and receiving. 
And, you know, so I guess heights makes the difference on CB. 
Wow. 
Who knew? 
But of course, when I got back downstairs to the street, I was able to hear the person slightly, but he wasn't able to hear me. 
Well, that's his misfortune, I guess. 
Maybe he can hear you now. 
Maybe he's listening. 
Maybe he's listening. 
Let's see. 
What else? 
Uh, let's see. 
How many people are there now at the hackerspace? 
Oh, I don't know. 
That's, uh, 10. 
Wow. 
That's not bad for Wednesday night. 
Yeah. 
Let me, let me, is this place open 24 hours? 
Let me ask, let's see. 
I don't know, but my second time here, so, um, you know, I'm just talking about other people. 
It's kind of like, he only goes during our show. 
Is this place 20, open 24 hours? 
Is it? 
Oh, really? 
Okay. 
So if you're a member, you can come at any time. 
Oh, okay. 
You're still not a member, Rebel? 
I should become a member. 
You better become a member. 
You can't just take advantage of people like this. 
Right. 
These people gave you shelter. 
They, they listened to you. 
Right, that's true. 
So you, you owe them. 
All right. 
Well, uh, Rebel, uh, it was, it was good hearing the happy ending to that story. 
I just wish there were more details and answers, but whatever. 
Yeah, so how does the tile work? 
A Bluetooth works only 30 or 40 feet, but this tile thing, it says it works 200 feet. 
If there's a Bluetooth in reach, how does that work? 
Anybody want to take this? 
Nobody wants to take this. 
I'm sorry. 
I don't think anybody knows how, how it's, it's called a tile. 
Yeah. 
It's called a tile. 
It's a Bluetooth thing. 
I think you should do some research and tell us. 
Hmm. 
That's true. 
Maybe I will. 
Yeah. 
And in June, I'll be, yeah, I'll be at the 2600 meeting in June, in May, but in June, I'm going to Russia to St. 
Petersburg. 
Oh my goodness. 
Last year I went to Moscow, last year I went to Moscow, now I'm going to go to St. 
Petersburg. 
Uh-huh. 
Okay. 
Well, St. 
Petersburg is a really nice looking city. 
That's what I hear. 
That's where I want to go. 
Not that Moscow isn't, but St. 
Petersburg looks much nicer. 
No, Moscow, I loved Moscow. 
I didn't say I didn't love, I love Moscow more than you do, but it's, as far as attractive cities go, I think St. 
Petersburg wins that contest. 
Right. 
And you've been to St. 
Petersburg too, haven't you? 
I have. 
I took the train between the two cities. 
Right. 
Mm-hmm. 
And I'd do it again. 
Whatever. 
I would. 
Yeah. 
Maybe in the future, though. 
Right. 
All right. 
So I guess, I guess that's all for this week. 
Okay. 
Well, it went awfully fast. 
Anybody else want to talk to you off the hook? 
You know, don't make it like we're begging or anything like that. 
These people are busy, they're doing their own projects, and as they should. 
Hey, people have raspberry pies and things like that. 
All right. 
Yes, we'll leave them to the microcontrollers. 
All right. 
Then I'll talk to you next week. 
All right. 
We will look forward to that. 
All right. 
Thanks for the call. 
Bye-bye. 
Of course, we're not on next week, but I'm sure he'll call anyway. 
He doesn't listen to the show. 
He doesn't listen to our show, but this calls every week at this time and updates us on various things. 
But that's an exciting end to the saga of the stolen electronic bike, which I just wish I knew why the guy stole it, other than him being a jerk. 
Yeah. 
Yeah, I'm very happy for Rebel, and I was concerned about that. 
Good for him. 
So 802-321-4225, if there's anyone else out there who has something to share with us or comments or critiques or information, there is a fun call coming in. 
Yeah, things that got hacked. 
We didn't get any updates on the clout gate, I guess, or whatever we're calling it, Pentagon leak. 
Oh, we got to talk about that. 
We didn't mention that at all. 
We talked about it last show. 
The leaker was caught. 
And in fact, Kyle, you won because we predicted when was it going to get caught. 
I said a week. 
You said, Alex said months. 
So, Alex, you were way off, way off on this one. 
But Kyle said last Friday, and he actually was caught before then. 
Yeah, Thursday. 
He was in jail Friday. 
Yes, Alex. 
But I did say, if he is caught, it was going to be something stupid. 
It was going to be something idiotic, right? 
And silly. 
What tipped you off on that? 
The whole Minecraft chat rooms and other? 
Yeah, exactly. 
Yeah. 
All right, let's take this phone call. 
Good evening. 
You're on Off The Govertime. 
Go ahead. 
Yes. 
Hi. 
Good evening. 
I'm one of the people that did send you the email about the article from Technologizer. 
Oh, cool. 
It was very interesting. 
Yes, thanks for sharing that with us. 
Yeah, it brought back a lot of memories. 
Do you remember a store called Nico's Smoke Shop that used to be on 11th Street and 6th Avenue? 
They had a great magazine collection in that place. 
I don't remember that specifically, but it sounds like something from the 90s, definitely. 
A smoke shop with a magazine section. 
Oh, yeah. 
They had 2,600. 
They had gray areas, Fringeware Review, Fact Sheet 5. 
It was an amazing place. 
And even Penn Station. 
They used to have a gigantic computer magazine section. 
I mean, they're all gone now, I think. 
I think basically it's just Barnes & Noble. 
But there were a lot of great magazine stores back in the 80s and 90s, Hudson Square. 
Hudson News. 
I think Hudson News might have been in Penn Station. 
Hudson News, right, right. 
Yeah. 
But they had a huge spot. 
I remember Board Watch Magazine, BBS Caller's Digest, Internet Underground, Internet World. 
And there was a great newspaper store, too. 
Hodling's on 42nd, between 5th and 6th. 
And you could pick up Seattle Times, Chicago Tribune. 
I mean, it would be a day or two after the cover date. 
But it was still, I think something's lost when everything is online and you can't get anything in print. 
Yeah, a lot is lost, especially history, because you can change a story. 
You know, you can say, oh, we didn't say that. 
We said this. 
You know, whereas if it's printed, it's there. 
You did it. 
You made the story. 
If you made a mistake, you print a retraction the day after. 
But you don't just obliterate the mistake. 
That's what bothers me about purely electronic publications. 
And just the serendipity factor. 
I mean, just being able to thumb through a magazine or a newspaper and you're looking for one thing and you find something else. 
I mean, it happens online, but it's not the same thing. 
It's qualitatively different. 
Plus, the whole access thing. 
What if you don't have access to technology? 
There's many people still who don't have that kind of access or who might not want that kind of access, who are perfectly happy reading a book or a magazine or just something that they can hold in their hands. 
It doesn't require power. 
That's true. 
Yeah. 
I was curious. 
When Rebel was calling just before a few minutes ago, was he calling from that place, Hack Manhattan, on West 37th Street? 
I'm not sure exactly where he was. 
Was it a Fab Lab or something was the name of the place, I think? 
Yes. 
Was it Fat Cat Fab Lab? 
Yeah, I think that was it. 
It was one of those, yes. 
That's what he said last week. 
The number wasn't any different than anything we haven't seen before. 
It wasn't specifically for a Fab Lab. 
It was the usual rebel. 
I have no idea what you just said. 
I don't know what that means. 
What do you mean? 
It was the usual rebel. 
He wasn't calling from that. 
Oh, you're looking at the caller ID. 
I did not see you referring to caller ID. 
Okay, I thought that's what he was saying. 
Yeah, so that's... 
No, I was just curious. 
I'd like to check out the place where he was calling from. 
I'd like to go over there, but it was called Fab Lab or something? 
Rob, you seem to know the name of it. 
Yeah, one of the hackerspaces here in New York is called Fat Cat Fab Lab. 
Yeah, so type those words in. 
Fat Cat. 
Yes. 
Fat Cat Fab Lab. 
Oh, okay. 
Yes. 
That's what he said last week, so I'm pretty sure that's where he is. 
I was just curious. 
I know you didn't get a chance to talk about it because there's so many big news stories, but were you guys encouraged or discouraged by the settlement between Dominion and Fox News? 
I was a bit disappointed because the money is good for Dominion, but no on-air apology from Fox, which I think all of us would have benefited from if we had to see them. 
I don't blame them for taking the settlement because it does definitely help them, but we're all cheated because we deserve to see Fox brought to their knees for what they did, what they continue to do, and they will continue to do it now because there's really no ramifications for the actual liars. 
Yeah, Fox has. 
Rupert Murdoch has the money. 
He can write a check. 
He probably has it on him. 
You know, three-quarters of a billion dollars is a lot, but they can weather that storm. 
No consequences. 
And so I think, yeah, we're all losing as a result. 
Kyle? 
Well, I'm optimistic because I read there are other defamation and lawsuits that Dominion has against specific individuals, and I'm hopeful that this money will be put towards those going to trial. 
That might be a bit more personal, shall we say, than like trying to indict a whole media organization, or in other words, have all of their personalities come forth, and it would seem a lot more like a hit on this organization when the organization has a lot of good people itself, but there were pundits and personalities making a lot of money perpetuating stuff and basically tarnishing the reputation of that organization. 
They themselves may ultimately be held accountable in subsequent suits. 
So I don't know, but I'm not putting too much hope in that either. 
I think confronting it the way they did, Dominion that is, only bolstered their reputation and lent credibility to the false nature of what was being said. 
But I don't know if that's much solace for anybody. 
That's just how I'm thinking. 
Not for me, not really. 
Go ahead, Rob. 
Yeah, I'm really saddened by the settlement because I feel like society as a whole was robbed of everything that would have been entered into evidence, all the testimony, everything that would have been entered into public record about how this sort of thing goes on at Fox behind the scenes. 
You know, the chance to put all that out in the open is what's just been sold for three quarters of a billion dollars. 
And yeah, I'm not thrilled with it. 
But it's not the end. 
There's another suit pending. 
Who knows what's going to happen there? 
That's what I was saying, that maybe they'll go after the actual people that spread the lies as well. 
Let's hope so. 
Let's hope that people pay for their crimes, for basically leading people astray intentionally. 
Yeah, I hear you, and I think that is so true. 
Like, Discovery, I think Alex would be, like, right there agreeing that, you know, you get to get a lot of detail. 
The granularity changes when you go to trial and so forth. 
So that would have been fantastic. 
But I think that it's, you know, it's their choice to make. 
And I don't think Dominion's just, I mean, whatever the terms were, too, I don't know what other things they might have to relinquish or cooperate with necessarily. 
But if there are other things that will be presented or accusations made, I hope that, I think, or I imagine Dominion would bring that same energy to those. 
And that they're not just going to come kind of lackluster, like, oh, gee, well, you know, we settled there. 
Are there any others we can just, you know, kind of make go away? 
Like, I think they still have some points to make in the public sphere about what this did to their reputation and the wider society. 
I just want to see – well, go ahead, Alex. 
Well, I was about to say, you know, we may get that wish because Fox, as I understand it, is still facing other defamation suits. 
And so as much as we would have enjoyed seeing them squirm and squeam as this proceeded to trial, it's a hell of a lot of money to settle this thing. 
And it's – you know, I think that they realized that this was an existential threat to them, and they had to settle at any cost. 
That's the thing, though. 
When they settle, it's kind of business as usual. 
Like, you know, Alex Jones was found to have been liable for almost a billion dollars in the lawsuit against him. 
Yet he still is very rich, still lives in a nice place, still is spreading his crap. 
He's not suffering. 
He didn't settle, though. 
No, he didn't settle. 
He was basically found liable. 
He should be suffering, and he's not suffering. 
Meanwhile, okay, I saw this story yesterday. 
This guy named Gary Bowser, he was sentenced in 2021 to 40 months in prison and a $14.5 million fine for what? 
His role in a Nintendo hacking group called Team Executor. 
He was just released from jail, but he was indicted back in 2020. 
He was initially charged with 11 felonies and was sentenced to first a $4.5 million fine, then a $10 million additional fine, as well as up to 40 months in prison. 
He says that of the $14.5 million he owes, he has only been able to pay off $175 in $25 monthly installments. 
But basically, they're going to be going after him for the rest of his life. 
He said his agreement with Nintendo allows for about 30% of whatever salary he makes to be immediately given to them. 
Now, you know, Nintendo is a multibillion-dollar company. 
I don't think—obviously, he committed a crime. 
There's no question about that. 
But have they suffered irreparable harm? 
I wouldn't say it's irreparable. 
They certainly suffered some harm by having people rip them off, but they're going to be okay. 
But this guy, for the rest of his life, is going to be suffering. 
He's being made an example of why doesn't the same thing happen to people like Alex Jones? 
Because he's not suffering. 
He's basically living the life and boasting and just being the usual jerk that he always has been. 
But smaller people, you know, who piss off corporations or governments—and I'm thinking of Virgil now, too—they are made to really, really suffer. 
And oftentimes, they're not the worst of the people that are being sentenced. 
These guys, with the money, with the connections, they just seem to get away with it all the time. 
And the latest Fox thing feels like they're doing it again, just writing a check. 
But thanks for that question. 
Yeah. 
Well, you guys do a great job, and thanks for a very stimulating show. 
Thank you for calling. 
Enjoy your week off. 
Take care. 
Take care now. 
802-321-4225 is our telephone number if anyone else is out there would like to share their thoughts. 
But, yeah, that Nintendo story was surprising because, you know, yeah, they were doing some rather nasty things. 
They basically were trafficking in circumvention devices. 
They were doing money laundering. 
Like hacking for hire stuff? 
It all had to do with video games. 
Specifically, like the Nintendo world? 
I know people take this so seriously, but I just feel subverting democracy is a worse crime. 
And no one ever seems to really pay the price when they do that. 
But he served as the PR manager for this fraudulent company that was ripping off Nintendo. 
It's kind of funny. 
It really is. 
But I just think people should learn from their mistakes and move on. 
If they keep doing it, then obviously harder penalties. 
But it just feels like a big company is making somebody suffer for being an idiot. 
All right. 
We have another phone call? 
We do, indeed. 
All right. 
Let's see who's out there. 
Good evening. 
You're on Off The Hook Overtime. 
Good evening. 
Can you hear me? 
Yes, we hear you just fine. 
Hey, great. 
Good evening, Emmanuel. 
Good evening, everyone. 
I guess first calling from Kansas. 
Kansas? 
Wow. 
I just wanted to tell you guys, yeah. 
So a little, I always try to catch you guys. 
So that's what I was going to say. 
Unlike Rebel, I actually listen to the show on Wednesday night. 
So thank you for that. 
Awesome. 
Yeah. 
So despite your technical problems, I just, I was sort of sitting listening tonight and I had a bit of a stream of consciousness. 
And so I just sort of wanted to pitch all this out there and let you guys, you know, give me some feedback. 
Okay. 
Long story short, I really just think like on your topic that evil has really been emboldened. 
And I feel like a lot of the things that are happening in the world today, like our worst dystopian novels have come true. 
And none of them actually all got it right. 
Between 1984, Brave New World, Handmaiden's Tale, all those things are happening. 
And I think the general person, the general average person, they're too busy. 
They're too distracted with their lives. 
There's just too much weight to it all. 
And they're basically, they're just in their daily lives taking their SOMA, trying to get through the day. 
And I do always appreciate Alex's very thoughtful commentary on law. 
The only thing that I guess I would ask about that is, you know, with all the gerrymandering and all the problems that we've had there, if Congress was asleep at the wheel or at the switch, aren't they really already compromised? 
I mean, when we talk about redistricting and all the things that have done to prevent democracy from working properly, that also discourages people. 
And so at a certain point, the weight is just so crushing, you're beset on all sides. 
And at this point, the strategy, it almost has to be very strategic. 
It has to be almost chef-like in the sense that all the wins that we sort of have to navigate our way through is the only way that we're going to recover and actually make any progress back. 
So, so thanks for letting me ramble there. 
So what do you think? 
Yeah, that, that, that, uh, that tracks, I mean. 
Yeah, I think it being incredibly analytical and, and, uh, intelligent about where you put energy and nimble moving, uh, through this landscape of, as you said, emboldened evil and, and, uh, wrong. 
It must be, it must be somewhat frustrating being from a place like Kansas. 
I mean, not to, uh, cast dispersions or anything like that. 
I mean, Kansas was one of the first states actually that had, um, a very strong voice in favor of abortion rights to the surprise of many in, in, in this country. 
But, um, in the middle of America with, uh, a fairly sparsely populated area, um, do you feel like your voice is heard? 
Do you feel like you have the opportunity to actually affect change? 
Well, that's a really good question because again, you have to understand how to approach people. 
I mean, there are people that, again, when you prey on them, you use psychology against them, which is what I really think happens with so many, you know, so many of those people working to sort of undermine the foundational principles of, of free thought, of free speech, of, of letting people live their lives. 
And I do think there are people, I mean, I would hopefully count myself as one of them that will, will give the other side an opportunity. 
You definitely shouldn't entertain every frivolous argument or every straw man, but at the same time, if you know how to approach people, there are a lot of minds out here. 
And again, you, since you alluded to it, you know, in the more metropolitan areas in the bigger cities, right, that's where democracy saved, saved, uh, basically sort of started the, uh, the fire, right. 
Um, in terms of the abortions and women's rights. 
And it's possible, but again, it's just, those are the things that people need to hear. 
They need to hear more about the victories. 
I think so that way it's almost, uh, it's almost a bit of a beacon, right. 
That it is still possible, even though, again, that we just feel so worn down because nothing, nothing sort of disenfranchises people more than when they feel that they're not going to affect change. 
And so I, I certainly could concede and feel defeated, but every day I get up and try to, you know, share a worldview, not shove it down anyone's throat, but at the same time to basically try to get people to ask questions, because if you let people answer those questions themselves, if you guide them, right, it's a whole lot better than trying to attack their personal belief systems. 
Because I've always, I guess I've always felt you'll never, you'll never logically get someone out of an emotional place. 
Absolutely. 
You know, it reminds me, we, we recently had a plumber come over, uh, because we had some, some unique issues that this was the best guy in within 50 miles to deal with it, with the patience, with the knowledge, but boy, it was this guy right wing and, and was not afraid to let you know it and had all kinds of theories and thoughts. 
And, you know, my thought at the time was, do I engage this person in a debate? 
I mean, do I really need to, to, uh, get my plumber, uh, to, to see my political point of view, or do I treat the guy like he has his opinion and, uh, you know, he's welcome to it. 
And right now, you know, he's, he's the most important person in my life that needs to fix a damn clogged toilet. 
And I realized, you know, I don't have to have this argument all the time. 
We can embrace people for who they are. 
There's the proper sort of forum for it, right? 
There's the right time to engage people. 
You want to, you want to be in a very sort of, this is, again, this is psychology one on one approach in a relaxed environment. 
You know, it's not charged that you made, I would say the right call there, right? 
When they're trying to do their business and you're trying to do, you know, your business, that's not the right forum. 
So again, that's where a little forethought and a little strategy, right? 
You have to pick, you have to sort of strategically pick those battles and that wasn't the right time for it. 
Right. 
And, you know, if, if you are in good terms with somebody, they're all the more likely to have a good conversation with you in the future, should you decide to keep talking to them. 
But otherwise, you know, it's, it's just, um, you don't want to turn into an annoying person yourself that is, as you said, shoving it down people's throat constantly. 
But at the same time, you stand firm to your beliefs. 
If the guy had, had gone, you know, uh, uh, had said offensive racist things about particular people, uh, I wouldn't have let that go, obviously. 
But this is just basically talking points. 
Like, uh, this, the guy in the white house is just screwing everything up. 
You know, let somebody get away with that. 
No problem. 
I don't have to win every argument. 
I don't have to have the argument every damn time. 
We've all been there. 
I just want to flush the damn toilet is all I want to do. 
And, uh, I, I got my wish and we're on good terms. 
And, and, and I, I feel, you know, when Kyle and I went across the country a couple of years ago, we drove all the way and we went through Kansas, in fact, we stayed in liberal Kansas. 
That is false advertising. 
Let me just say right there, but we didn't have a single bad experience with anybody. 
And I, I, I would guess that we probably agreed politically with around 1% of the people we encountered, but it was still very pleasant because it wasn't all about that. 
It was just about the, the simple things, which are the most important things. 
And I think that there's, and a lot of, go ahead. 
I'm sorry. 
I was just going to say that a lot of people do come from a very traditional mentality here where they believe in helping other people. 
It's just the strange disconnect is helping other people that you see as your next door neighbor or helping someone that you see in your town. 
It's not that different than helping someone you can't see far away. 
And that's where the strange disconnect comes in. 
I can't quite account for that, but understanding that people are trying to live their lives while they're trying to live their own lives. 
Right. 
And it's funny that so many people have the bumper stickers about don't tread on me around here, which again, it's just sort of fascinating because again, when they're thinking of their rights versus their opinions and the rights that they're trying to impose on others, it is a logical fallacy, it doesn't add up. 
And that again, those are, those are the things that, uh, those of us that are thinking and trying to affect change in places like this, we want to draw people out and sort of show them how that, you know, two and two is not adding up to five in those situations. 
Go ahead, Kyle. 
Certainly, no, the, the point is to, um, to, uh, have the right kind of discourse and so forth, uh, uh, when the opportunity, uh, strikes itself. 
But I, I, I think that the, the, the overall, um, the overall tenor of, of working things out and so forth has maybe clouded a little bit of some of the culpability I think that is due and that maybe we're trying to project onto some of these legal cases and so forth because there's shouldn't be any underestimating the ill will that a lot of the political strategies that were employed to prevent real progress, you know, uh, that, that could have used debate and insight from conservatives, you know, uh, and, uh, and, uh, and, and had some compromises and some things to make it functional and, and, you know, and within budget, whatever it is, you know, everybody has something to bring to the table. 
And I think the culpability is getting lost in a moment where there's some sort of high road. 
Let's, um, let's be unified and, and meet, uh, global or other challenges and, uh, sort of rise above the pettiness, but there are some real political wounds that I don't know that have, are really going to readily heal. 
And, um, I think what you're saying is, is a great, a great model for at least, um, getting to a place where you can be, as you said, you know, not in a charged environment and, and point things out that, that don't strike, that, that don't, uh, keep people in that emotional mode. 
Yeah. 
Well, I don't want to take up too much time. 
I appreciate you taking my call. 
Um, I feel that politics and technology, they are bound together. 
There's certainly a relationship there. 
And those of us that do tech and we're tinkerers and we're hackers, we think about these things. 
And so giving it a forum, giving it a place where we can sort of, I guess, um, approach it in a very analytical and a very positive way is the best thing for, for discourse. 
So again, I wish you guys all the best and, uh, yeah, I'll be tuning in. 
I always tune in and I appreciate the show and please that paper magazine, that means a lot to me. 
So thanks. 
Thanks so much for, for the call. 
And thanks just for being out there in, in Kansas. 
It makes us feel good knowing that we have, uh, we have people out there who care. 
Absolutely. 
Cheers, gentlemen. 
Thank you. 
Bye-bye. 
What a great call. 
Brilliant. 
Yeah. 
Keep listening. 
Keep talking to people. 
I think, you know, the true culprits are the ones who know better. 
And by that, I mean, politicians, you know, elected officials, um, people who, I'm sorry, people who, um, uh, are on the media and are basically spreading lies, uh, knowing they're spreading lies, uh, denigrating people based on who they are, where they live, what they look like. 
Um, because what that does, I think you got a visitor there, Robin Gila. 
Uh, go on. 
There's no time. 
Basically, they're not being hurt by this, but what they're doing is they're creating people like the guy who, who, um, uh, shot the poor kid in Kansas city, like the guy who killed the girl in upstate New York, like the guy in Texas who, who, uh, shot a cheerleader for getting into the wrong car, all these people who are filled with hatred and have guns because they feel that's necessary. 
It's necessary to hate. 
It's necessary to always be armed. 
It's necessary to shoot first, ask questions later. 
People aren't like that from birth. 
They become like that. 
You know, they're, they get fed propaganda. 
They get fed hatred. 
They get fed fear. 
And all of a sudden they have their enemies, even though they've never encountered them. 
They could say, oh, these people who live in the city, they just don't get it. 
They're all a bunch of liberals. 
And, and we can say all those people in the country are a bunch of rednecks. 
They don't understand anything. 
And we just live with that hatred and fear without ever having contact. 
And I think the contact is so important because that's the way you bridge these gaps, but you can't have the contact when you have all the hatred being spewed from our government and from our media. 
And those are the people that need to be held accountable. 
And that's why it is frustrating to see this Fox trial not happen. 
It's frustrating to see politicians getting away with lying and facing no consequences. 
You know, it's, it's frustrating to see outright crimes being committed and Supreme Court justices who are cheating and all sorts of, um, uh, stacking the deck that keep happening over and over again without accountability and without change. 
So it's good to talk about it. 
It's good to, um, recognize it, but always feel like you can change, you can make a difference. 
And, and that's one thing, maybe I didn't communicate this in the first hour, but I'm very optimistic because I believe in us as people. 
And I think we can change this. 
We can upgrade our system. 
We can get a better OS. 
We can figure out how to make it all work in a fair and just way, but we have to acknowledge the problem first. 
We have to say that, yeah, you know what system is definitely due for something different because the same way of approaching things, I don't think it's going to work anymore. 
I don't think it's going to keep working. 
We've seen how easily it can be abused, how easily it can be thwarted. 
And if we don't change it, that's still going to be there. 
It's the, it's, it's the, it's like a hacker who finds a vulnerability and is told, don't tell anybody about this or you'll get blamed for it. 
And if you don't tell anybody about it, it's still going to be there. 
The vulnerability will still be there and somebody will take advantage of it. 
And it'll probably be a more evil person who does down the road. 
You have to acknowledge security issues. 
You have to acknowledge holes in systems. 
You got to patch them. 
You got to replace them. 
You can't just keep pretending everything's working fine. 
Like some pigheaded sysadmin who hates everybody who complains about anything. 
We've all been there. 
Yes, Alex, it looks like you're aching to say something. 
You're just this, this pigheaded sysadmin reference just brought me back. 
I had yet another Proustian moment here. 
Uh-huh. 
Do you remember those old, uh, I guess there were text files from back in the day, B-O-F-H, the bastard operator from hell? 
I do remember that, the acronym. 
I don't remember the contents. 
That was the epitome of the pigheaded sysadmin. 
Um, uh, they were, they were just so great. 
That's a, that's a column now. 
That's what? 
That's a column now on the register. 
They, they do B-O-F-H. 
Oh, do they? 
Okay. 
They really? 
I didn't know that. 
Yeah. 
Yeah. 
It's a regular column on the register. 
I'm pretty sure. 
Alex, your assignment is to get us those text files in two weeks so that we can read some of them. 
But they were, they were originally text, distributed as text file stories. 
Yeah, I think they were. 
I'm pretty sure they were. 
Is that right, Rob? 
Yeah. 
Yeah. 
I think you're right. 
You probably just call Jason Scott and, uh, get them in within the hour. 
Sure. 
He'll have it. 
Yeah. 
What do you want? 
What format? 
Do you want it on a, you met on a tape? 
Three inch disc drive. 
Yeah. 
Floppy disc. 
Eight inch. 
How about a 40 meg hard drive? 
Do we have any more calls? 
Um, no. 
Give the number out. 
Give me, all right. 
Give the number out and wait a couple of minutes. 
802-321-4225. 
This will be the last call. 
Uh, so if anyone out there has something to say that has not already called, um, please do so. 
802-321-4225 is our telephone number. 
Any other thoughts, folks? 
I just found something interesting from the BOFH where there's a, you know, the BOFH would always give you some kind of crazy excuse as to why you couldn't do something where the network was down or a computer wasn't working. 
And there is a BOFH excuse generator. 
You can just refresh the page and it generates another bastard operator from hell excuse. 
So, this would be an excuse for why, uh, you know, your network was running slow or server is down. 
So, this is a minor handler dump for a database corruption signal. 
Aborted level problem because of an unfiltered handler re-clock. 
It's just crazy, right? 
Inherent code condition. 
That's perfect for Twitter. 
That really is, yeah. 
That re-signaled streaming flag, uh, bi-directional parameter error. 
That sounds believable. 
I just asked, uh, chat GPT for a definition of BOFH, um, and it immediately responded, uh, BOFH stands for bastard operator from hell. 
It is a term that originated in the world of information technology and refers to a fictional character who is often portrayed as an abusive and manipulative system administrator. 
The BOFH character was first introduced in a series of short stories written by Simon Trevaglia in the 1990s, which were published on the internet and in various IT magazines. 
The stories typically involve the BOFH using his technical expertise to exact revenge on co-workers who have irritated him in some way. 
The character has since become a cultural icon among IT professionals. 
And the term BOFH is sometimes used more broadly to refer to any IT worker who exhibits rude or unhelpful behavior towards users. 
I think that's pretty accurate. 
Yeah. 
Yeah, I think so. 
Yeah. 
Yeah. 
Although I haven't heard of, uh, people calling others a BOFH, uh, you know, I guess I could. 
I've heard of people using all those initials to come up with their own insults, but yeah. 
Yeah. 
It's kind of an awkward thing to call somebody. 
Well, I think we're done for tonight. 
Uh, have not seen any other calls come in. 
So, uh, I'm just happy to, uh, kick back and do some troubleshooting on our new system here. 
So we don't go through that rough landing again in two weeks. 
Please write to us. 
OTH at 2600.com. 
That's our email address with whatever thoughts you might have. 
And tell us what you're improving. 
Yeah. 
And maybe suggestions, or, you know, if you're in a different country, maybe you can offer us some advice on what systems work for you. 
Maybe we'll invest in those systems instead because our systems are broken. 
You know, maybe it's time to use an Amiga instead of, uh, an Apple or, uh, get rid of the old BlackBerry and get something different. 
I don't know. 
We have to look at, um, options. 
I can't believe that, that public, that hacking publication story, like Mac attic. 
I remember when that was brand new and Mac world was like the stalwart. 
And I realized, so Mac world pre predated it, but it didn't last as long. 
So Mac attic ended up being in this, uh, heat of, uh, longest running. 
And, uh, it's just so weird. 
Time flies. 
How do you keep track of them all? 
Time flies. 
Yeah. 
They all changed ownership and changed names and yeah, it's, it's wild. 
Well, 2600 survives for now and hopefully, um, we'll have, we'll have more stories to tell and ever fresh. 
Mm-hmm. 
Mm-hmm. 
All right, everybody. 
Thank you for being a part of this. 
We will see you in two weeks. 
Good night. 
Thank you. 
Good night.