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The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a cough We couldn't get much worse But if it could, we would One did we bump But the best is back the worst I hope that's understood One did we bump And a very good evening to everybody Our program is Off the Hook Emmanuel, I'll stay here with you On this Wednesday evening Joined tonight by Kyle Yes, you guessed And over there in Skypeland We have Rob T. 
Firefly Good evening And we have Gila Good evening Alex is on assignment We will not be hearing from him this week However, I did get to hang out with him Quite a bit last week So I'm welcoming the reprieve We actually went out to Pennsylvania To visit our friend Virgil Griffith And that was quite Kyle, you were there too Although you weren't on the list So you couldn't get into the prison It was the most elite club in town But yeah, you got to hang out in a coffee shop So it wasn't all bad I was in the area Yeah So it was good to see him And for those who are concerned about him He's doing well I mean, he's not enjoying prison Or anything like that But he is still Virgil And that's what matters And he's basically thinking And planning And writing And noticing And that's what a hacker does When they're locked away For those who don't know We've talked about this case Many, many times It's basically He hasn't been locked away For a number of years Because he went to North Korea And really just answered a few questions That people had about cryptocurrency Questions that you could answer On the internet And well, because Donald Trump Was in power at the time And made it illegal to go to North Korea He was able to be charged With a bunch of crimes And the rest is history, I guess It's an injustice And somebody like Virgil Should not be in prison He should be on the college lecture circuit But that's how it is You guys out there in Skyplan Any questions perhaps Since you weren't actually there Yeah, I mean You've known Virgil For a long time, obviously And I believe Am I correct in thinking This is the first time You've seen him Since he was arrested? 
This was the first time I'd seen him Since the night He talked to the FBI Voluntarily And basically Told them everything he did Because he thought That was the thing He should do And they turned around Months later And used it against him And arrested him When he was coming To visit his family At Thanksgiving So I hadn't seen him For a few years He was I just remember He was so very happy To be able to share His experience In North Korea Just like I was When I went to North Korea He had all these newspapers And souvenirs That he was handing And he gave some To the FBI agents That were asking him questions About his unauthorized trip To a country That used to be Legal to travel to You know We're not used In this country We're not used To being told We can't go places So I completely understand Why he did it anyway But yeah I hadn't seen him Since then And I was I was worried I was very Concerned about What prison Might have done To him And I know This system Wears you down I know Just being put On trial Like that Wears you down Those of you Who saw him In the courtroom Can certainly Attest to that But I think You know The support That he is getting And just being able To use that mind Of his And know that The days are ticking You know And he will One day be free again And can you say Anything about What the experience Of visiting The facility itself Was like I mean obviously We probably can't Get too far Into the nitty gritty But Well actually I can say On next week's Off the Wall We're going to have Some actualities From that I didn't record Inside the prison Obviously But it was An interesting Experience Because You have to be Very careful When you go in there You have to follow The rules obviously You basically Can't bring anything in I brought a second Form of ID You know I figured it would be It would be safe To have two forms of ID No you can only bring one Okay So what do I do With the second one You have to put that Back in your car Okay but The car has already Driven off Because Kyle's in the car And he needs to spend Time somewhere else Not a parking lot Of a prison So Shenanigans like that I had to Basically bury my ID For a couple of hours Outside That's what you go through I wish Alex were here Because he's been through This so many more times And he knows the system And You know He's He's one of the reasons Virgil is thriving Because of the support That he has shown And I just think That's So typical Of the hacker community That we We adapt We Become lawyers We We start Changing the system From within And that's That's where The real power is So Absolutely So What are What What sorts of things Were you able to do Was it just like A brief Hangout And catch up And chat We were able to Hang out for a couple Of hours And it was actually Quite nice I was expecting The people In the prison To be hostile They were actually Very polite And cordial So I have no Complaints there You know It is a prison I know that And it's not A pleasant environment But they did the best On that particular occasion To make people feel Somewhat welcome But what happens And people need To understand this We actually went It wasn't last weekend It was the weekend Before Memorial Day Holiday What can happen And what has happened In the past Is that they Suddenly realize They don't have Enough staff For the rest of the weekend And they say Okay all visits Are over For the weekend On Saturday So no visits Sunday No visits Monday I'm not saying That happened this time I don't know What happened this time But that has happened In the past And when you consider There are people Who have traveled Across the country To visit their relatives Their loved ones Who are in prison And to be told Nope sorry We're closed Sucks to be you And that's That's what happens A lot Way too often Didn't happen to us We were lucky So Anyway So that was An interesting event That I experienced And again I hope he gets out Sooner rather than later We'll see Yeah and just knowing That you're able To visit someone You're You're still communicating And I think that's Something Virgil's doing Is Taking in As much as he can And Getting through the Moment he's there But also Reaching out And Using the resources Available to him And to Have folks check in That is Really crucial If you know anyone In a circumstance Like this Reaching out Writing them As an exercise All of those things Really Really matter And You know I look forward to a day That he is sharing A lot of What he's been Reflecting on And Excited about With the rest of the world Outside of prison Yeah one thing I didn't mention this You're in this big room With lots and lots of people And The visitors Are allowed to go To the vending machines And buy food For the inmates Inmates are not allowed To go to the vending machines They're not allowed to Have cash in their hands But you pay What Eight dollars For a piece of pizza And then you walk it Over to the microwave And you You know You hit blast on that For a couple of minutes And then you bring it To your Your friend Or loved one And it's the best meal They've had in weeks So that's That's kind of how The system works All right On another note Kyle and I went to The Long Island Maker Faire This past weekend Which took place In Port Jefferson In Suffolk County And It was It was pretty awesome To see A Maker Faire again Not Not as big As the World Maker Faire Used to be Well And The All the satellite And And Mini Maker Faires They're continuing So this is In the grand tradition And Wherever they take place It's always exciting To see Everyone getting out there And showing And telling What they're What they're working on We have some exciting news That We have been Privy to On the subject Of Maker Faire In New York City World Maker Faire That's history At the Old Fairgrounds In Queens Or near the Old Fairgrounds In Queens But Coney Island Maker Faire Yeah What do you think About that Rob? 
What do you think About that Gila? 
I like Coney Island Coney Island Maker Faire Coney Island Maker Faire This is exciting Is there Is there a date Attached to this Yes Yes There is a date The date is October 7th And 8th Of this year Which Fantastic So yeah That's You can get more information It's being put together Right now If you want to Help out If you want to Spread the word ConeyIslandMakerFaire.org And of course Maker Faire Is spelled M-A-K-E-R-F-A-I-R-E Dot O-R-G ConeyIslandMakerFaire.org October 7th And 8th 2023 They're very aware By the way That Coney Island Is where A lot of Mr. 
Robot Took place And there will Be some surprises Can't say more Than that At the moment But I will Read what it Says on this Little card That they're Handing out A renaissance Of wonder Coney Island Maker Faire 2023 Hashtag C-I-M-F 2023 Maker Faire Is back In New York City All new In America's Playground The Greatest Slideshow And I can't Read this This tiny Writing Sideshow And Tell On Earth Comes home To the place It was always Meant to be The birthplace Of amusement And that's Certainly true Of Coney Island So I can't Think of a Better place I really can't It's going to Be pretty amazing So that's October 7th And 8th Of this year We'll have Certainly have More details About that As it gets Closer That is Incredibly Exciting Yeah a lot Of people Are talking About What could Happen there And given How much Success in The past With the World event And others Of these Smaller Maker Faires It is It's going To be Different But I Hope as Fun and Just lively As the World Maker Fair was Known to be So I Can't wait For Coney Island Maker Fair That's That's It All right Now getting Into the World of Hacking Or quote Unquote Hacking This is From the New York Times A faked Declaration Of martial Law And military Mobilization By President Vladimir Putin Of Russia Aired on Monday On a number Of Russian Radio and Television Networks An incident That the Kremlin Described as A hack It's great How everybody Blames hackers No matter Where you Are Yes the Kremlin Described it As a Hack The Bogus Speech Which was Broadcast On the Mir radio Station Didn't know There was a Mir radio Station And television Networks Yeah it's Not just The space Station Which crashed To earth Many years Ago They said Ukraine Had invaded Three border Regions And urged Their residents To evacuate To the Russian Heartland It's kind Of funny To think That that Would happen That Ukraine Would invade Russia And everybody Would have To flee Wow The clip Also depicted Mr. 
Putin Declaring A general Mobilization Saying all The power Of the Country Needed to Be harnessed To defeat A dangerous And insidious Enemy He's probably Already said That a few Times The press Service of Mir Which is a Russian Public Broadcaster Said in A statement Released to The state News agency TAS That its Radio and Television Channels Had been Illegally Interrupted For a little More than A half Hour Before being Restored Can you Imagine a Half hour Of a TV network And a Radio network Being hacked And just Completely Taken Over That is That is Really Remarkable I mean in The field of Broadcast Signal intrusion Which is What this The term for This sort Of thing You really Haven't seen Much happen In the way Of broadcast Signal intrusions Of note For a long Time It used to Be easier In the Analog Era Of this Country There was The famous Max Headroom Incident But No This To Get on The air At all And then To stay On the air For half An hour Like I have To take My hat Off To whoever Managed That Managed To pull That off Or Give a Very Disapproving Look to The people In charge Who don't Know what They're Doing Both Yeah Probably A bit Of both But The broadcast Appeared to Piece together Genuine recordings Of Putin's Voice to Create a Realistic Spoof And it Coincided With a Surge In Ukrainian Attacks Along the Front line That may Signal the Start Of Q's Long Awaited Counter Offensive Which Has Been Previewed More Than The fall Television Season Which By the Way Is Going to Be late This Year So Yeah That Happened And then You have Twitter Where All kinds Of fake Information Is Given Out On a Regular Basis Now Dozens This Is Actually A week Or So Ago Dozens Of Verified Accounts On Twitter With Very Large Followings Spread Misinformation About An Explosion Near The Pentagon Tweeting The News Alongside What Appears To Be An AI Generated Image AI Is Doing Nothing But Getting People Into Trouble You know It's The Kind Of Thing That We All Predicted Accounts Such As War Monitors Bloomberg Feed And RT They Don't Use The Twitter RT It's Just RT The Russian Russia Today The Television Network Apparently Fell For This As Well Posted An Image Of A Large Grey Smoke Cloud Appearing Next To A White Government Building With A Corresponding Caption That Stated There Was An Explosion Near The Pentagon Bellingcat Journalist Nick Waters Tweeted That There Are A Few Signs That Make It An AI Image Including That The Fence Melds Into The Crowd Barriers On The Image And There Are No Other Images Or Videos Being Posted Twitter Sources As The Original Source Now While Some Of The Accounts That Tweeted Out Either Apologized Or Deleted The Image Bloomberg Feed Was Suspended It Continued To Be Shared By Accounts That Had Blue Checks Thanks To Twitter's Pay To Play Verification System The Stock Market Even Briefly Dipped Due To The Fake News This Is What Happens When You Get Rid Of The Verification Account Which Unfair Though It Was It Did Offer A Degree Of Verification Whereas Now It Just Verifies That You're Willing To Pay Elon Musk To Get A Ridiculous Blue Check You Know And The People Who Don't Have Blue Checks Actually Have More Respect I Think Than Those Who Yield And Pay Whatever It Is He's Demanding Anyway Within An Hour Of Of This Fake Report Being Circulated Government Officials Stepped In To Clarify That The Tweets Were Fake News There Is No Explosion Or Incident Taking Place At Or Near The Pentagon Reservation Said The Arlington Fire And EMS Department And There Is No Immediate Danger Or Hazards To The Public The Spreading Of This Fake News Across Accounts That Have Up To A Million Followers And Blue Checks Raises More Alarm Bells On How Again We Predicted This When You Do This Kind Of Thing People Are Going To Misbehave And You Give Them Verification They're Going To Use That To Their Advantage The Thing Is It's Happening Over And Over And Over And Over And That It Isn't Being Addressed Or Doesn't No One Cares There It Just Seems To Be More Of A Feature Than A Bug At This Point I When When Do You Start Saying This Is The Business Model Here Y'all What The Heck What The Hell Else Is It Absolutely That's Where Twitter Is Right Now And It's It's Sad It was A nice Spot For A Long Time And Here We Are Sometimes Reminisce About People That Used To Post There Yeah All Right Well Let's Let's Look At Some Good News Which Is Not Fake It's Real United States Versus Smith That Case A District Court Judge In New York Has Made History By Being The First Court To Rule That A Warrant Is Required For A Cell Phone Search At The Border Absent Exigent Circumstances Although Other District Courts Have Wanted To So I Guess Now This Is From The EFF They Are Thrilled About The Decision Obviously Given They Been Advocating For A Warrant For Border Searches Of Electronic Devices In The Courts And Congress For Nearly A Decade If The Case Is Appeal To The Second Circuit They Are Urging The Appellate Court To Affirm This Landmark Decision Now U.S. 
Customs And Border Protection Asserts Broad Authority To Conduct Warrantless Often Suspicionless Device Searches At The Border Which Includes Ports Of Entry At The Land Borders International Airports And Seaports Now For A Century The Supreme Court Has Recognized The Border Search Exception To The Fourth Amendment Warrant Requirement Allowing Not Only Warrantless But Also Often Suspicionless Searches Of Luggage And Other Items Crossing The Border Did Not Know For A Century They Allowed That The Number Of Warrantless Device Searches At The Border And The Significant Invasion Of Privacy They Represent Is Only Increasing In 2022 CBP conducted An All-Time High Of 45,499 Device Searches The Supreme Court Has Not Yet Considered The Application Of The Border Search Exception To Smartphones Laptops And Other Electronic Devices That Contain The Equivalent Of Millions Of Pages Of Information Detailing The Most Intimate Details Of Our Lives Even Though EFF Asked Them To Back In 2021 Not Very Responsive But This Is It It It It Bodes Well I Think If If This Is The Kind Of Thing That We Can Look Forward To Yeah I Think That Unfairly It's Been Used As Something That Is A Matter Of Routine Anymore You Know It Is It's Not Just Something That's Done In Is Used And It's Now Just So Common And Easy It Wasn't Something That Required Extra Equipment And So For They Seem Well Prepared And The Technology Is Advanced Enough Where This Isn't Some Heavy Lift And People Do Need A Little Bit More Protection Than Just Having Some Person With This Kind Of Equipment Suspicion And Authority In That In That Venue Think Of All The Information As On Your Cell Phone Or On Your Laptop Or On Your Tablet And To Have Somebody Just Rifle Through That It's It's It's Very Different Than Just Being Searched I've Been Searched Many Times But I've Never Had Electronic Devices Searched And That To Me Would Just Seem To Be So Much So All Encompassing And Completely Disturbing I Don't Know Any Thoughts Rob Gila Yeah I Mean I Could See Being Searched At The Border When You When You Land When You Get Off A Boat Whatever They Don't Want You To Have Something Dangerous They Don't Want You To Have Something Explosive I Get That What Are They Looking For In The Data On Your Phone That Warrants The Same Caution What Series Of Ones And Zeros What String Of Words What Bunch Of Numbers Could They Possibly Find That Make It Worth Your Right To Some Measure Of Personal Privacy They Are Looking For Thought Crime They Are Looking For Ideas Are Looking For Signs That You Might Be Trouble And If They Are To Even For A Moment Have Unsupervised Access To Your Devices They Can They Can Copy So Much Information And Just Peruse At Their Leisure Or Simply Abuse Your Privacy In One Way Or Another Share It With People Who Aren't Authorized It's A Nightmare It's Something That I'm Sure Was Never The Intention When These Laws Were Written And We Definitely Need To Yeah The Reliance Is Increased Exponentially People Are Securing So Much Of Their Lives With This Kind Of Equipment Especially Since There's A Big Push For Two Factor Authentication And Using Password Managers And So For It's Just Creating Another Huge Vulnerability For People In A Moment When They're Doing Something They're Totally Entitled To And It Can Just Be So All Encompassing So Quickly That How Can You Be Prepared And Live Without Something That Has Been So Vital If You Are Subject To Such Sort Of Frivolous Search On A Whim Yeah I Mean Your Phone Basically Is For Most People In The Smartphone Era Your Phone Is Your Communicative Life Like If At The Border Someone Asked You Okay We Want To See Everything That's Been In Your Physical Mailbox Over The Past Year And Every Phone You Know Transcripts Of Every Phone Conversation You've Had And Also Things You've Just Said To People Standing Around You You'd Think They Were Nuts But The Digital Equivalent Of That Is All Wrapped Up In Someone's Cell Phone Right So Our Advice To People Who Travel Encrypt Whenever Possible Don't Put Everything In Your Life Onto Your Cell Phone And Just Be Aware If Something Happens Like This Let People Know And Raise A Big Stink About It Yes Kila And Also Make Sure That You Disable The Biological Unlockers Yes Yes Because All They Have To Do Is Hold This Up To Your Face Or Put Your Thumb On It And And You've Given Them Unfettered Access And That's That's Not What You Want To Do That's A Great Point The Biometrics Yeah Yeah They Still Can't Compel You To Reveal Your Password But They Can Always Take Your Finger And Wrestle Because Then They Can Say You've Insulted Us No I Gave You The Password That Was The Password But Yeah That's That's My Own Personal Trick I Don't If You Hear About This Gmail Has This Brilliant New System They Have Now Blue Check Marks It's Called Sender Verification Yeah It was Introduced Last Month And It Highlights Verified Companies And Organizations To Users With A Blue Check Mark Legitimate And Which May Have Been Sent By Impersonators Running Scams You know The First Thing That Got Me About That System Was Wait a Minute Do You Have To Be A Gmail User To Get A Blue Check If That's The Case Well That Certainly Is A Slap In The Face To Anybody Not Using Gmail You're Basically Calling Them All Illegitimate Or Implying That They Are Anyway Don't Because Scammers Have Tricked The System Already It Didn't Take Very Very Long This Was Spotted By Cybersecurity Engineer Chris Plummer Who Says That Scammers Have Found A Way To Convince Gmail That Their Fake Brands Are Legitimate Thereby Using The Confidence The Checkmark System Is Supposed To Instill Against Gmail Users Plummer Says The Sender Found A Way To Dupe Gmail Authoritative Stamp Of Approval Which End Users Are Going To Trust This Message Went From A Facebook Account To A UK Net Block To 0365 A Phone Company I Believe To To Me Nothing About This Is Legit Plummer Reports That Google Initially Dismissed His Discovery As Intended Behavior Right Before His Tweets About It Went Viral And The Company Acknowledged The Error That's That's What It Takes In A Statement Google Wrote After Taking A Closer Look We Realize That This Indeed Doesn't Seem Like A Generic SPF Vulnerability Thus We Are Reopening This And The Appropriate Team Is Taking A Closer Look At What Is Going Closer Look At This We'll Keep You Posted With Our Assessment And The Direction That This Issue Takes The Flaw Is Now Listed As Top Priority Which Is Currently In Progress But Yeah Hats Off To Plummer For Finding That Because Not Only Do You Have To Find These Things But You Have To Get The People In Charge To Recognize It And Acknowledge It And This Sort Of Thing Is Something That You Have To You Have To Expose When It Happens If People Are Going To Believe This Blue Check Means Anything I Don't Know What It Is About Blue Checks Why Would You Want To Have A Blue Check Like Twitter When That System Is Being Ridiculed By Everybody And Now Google Is Doing The Same Thing Yeah It's A It's A Laugh That's Why We're Satisable And I'm Also Just Entertained By All Of This Because Of I Don't Know If This Has Been A Proliferation Generally In The World But I Know That In Faith Communities Of My Particular Faith There Has Been This Weird Moment Where People Are Creating Gmail Accounts In The Name Of Clergy And Then Trying To Scam People Out Of It's A Gift Card Scam Basically But People Hey I'm You know Rabbi Smith At Temple Beth Columbus At Gmail Dot Com Hey I Need You To Call Me Right Now Because We're Having An Emergency And You know If You can Create A Google Scam Account If You Create A Gmail Scam Account Then I Don't Know I Just I Always Want To Encourage People Especially If You're Opening Mail On A Desktop client To Just Hover Over That Sender Pop Up The Email Address Cause That's You Know Nine Times Out Of Ten That's An Easy Way To Spot A Scammer Yeah And Slow Down Yeah Slow Your Clicking But I Do I Think This Verification Stuff Is Like It's Getting A Little Ridiculous It Was Always I Don't Know I Just Think A Formal A Formalized Version Of Clout And I Think You Should Let Your You Don't Try To Differentiate So Much I Guess It's More Important For Official Brands And Maybe Celebrities But I Don't Think It's A Necessary Part Of The Core Function Of Social Networking If You're Using It To Truly Communicate Widely And Network A Little Bit And Yeah Let It Happen On Its Own You Don't Have To Pay For Followers And Pay For Badges And All This Fake Stuff But Also It It's Worth Thinking About That If Google Is Doing This Just For Gmail Users This Is A Special Feature Of Gmail Only You Don't Get It If You Use Other Email Servers Or Email Servers Email Is A Standard It's Supposed To Work The Same No Matter Where You Use It From No Matter Where You To Two It's A Decentralized System In That In That Sense And If Google Is Now Adding You Know They Have Such A Domination Over The Email Market Just As It Is For Many People Gmail Is Email And If Now Gmail Has Email But With Some Extra Sauce On It Then This Is Drawing More People To Their Service And It's I Think It's A It Can Be A Step Toward Trying To Make It A Closed System Than Open Interoperable Thing The We've All Been Emailing Each Other For Generations And We Know Things Like Email To A Specific Domain If You Email Us At 2600.com That's Our Known Domain And You Know You're Emailing OTH At 2600.com With Your Thoughts On Off The Hook Or Other Things At 2600.com For Other Things You Might Contact The Folks There About And We Need To Spread Further Education Of The Systems That Are Already There To Verify What's Going On In An Email Message That Have Been Refined Over The Decades I Mean The Thing It Almost Makes Me Think Of Is I Was Thinking About You Know Being A Young Teenager And Having AOL Having My First AOL Account And Knowing That If You Were An AOL User You Were Emailing Another AOL User You Didn't Need To Include At AOL Dotcom You Just Use The Username And If You Were Emailing Anybody Else It Was Like You Had To Include The Domain Name And Now That I'm Thinking About It In Retrospect It's Almost Like The Difference Between Seven Digit Dialing And Ten Digit Dialing Or Even Four Digit Dialing Because In The Old Days If You Were In The Same Exchange You Only Had To Dial The Last Four Digits Exactly And As We've You Gotten Accustomed To Cities Where With Overlay Area Codes Or What Have You Where Even To Call Somebody Ten Feet Away You Have To Ten Digit Dial So What That Expansion Has Been And We've All Adjusted To It And It's Been Okay And I'm Trying To Think About How We Can Extrapolate That Also Well It Wasn't Okay For Me I Have Not Adjusted To It I Resented Every Time I Rough Transition Or At Least I Think The That Trustability Or Verifiability Is Sort Of Dynamic And You've Seen It In People Exploiting Accounts Or Taking Over Accounts That Were Dormant For Nefarious Or Other Silly Purposes So It Is Seemingly More Of A Move Towards Really Not Trusting A Lot Of Any Of These Sources And Some Of The Providers That Have A Lot Of Say Over Platforms Like Gmail Which Interoperate As Was Pointed Out With The Email Protocol And So Forth It Can Damage Outwardly If They Start Putting Their Thumb On The Scales Or Doing Things That Make You Jump Through All Kinds Of Authentication Hoops Or They Make Some Decision To Not Trust One Feature Of The Protocol And Then Switch It Up Again And Or Issue White Lists Or Black Lists Of Different Domains And Stuff On The Fly As I Said Dynamically And You Have To Imagine It Is Happening That Way Because Of The Way Security Is Being Handled And Having To Shut Down Different Networks On Emergencies And So A Lot Of That Changing And So Forth They Think Is Lending Itself The Environment Itself Is Lending To Them Making These Big Decisions But They're Not Thinking About That Interoperability Which Was Sort Of The Foundation Yeah You Know One Thing That People Talk About A lot When It Comes To Gmail Is Spam Filtering And People Say Google Has Really Good Or Gmail Has Really Good Spam Filtering I Think They Have Really Bad Spam Filtering Personal Correspondence You Know I Don't Use Gmail For Anything Important But I Do Use It As You Know Ways Of Contacting People That I Don't Want To Give Out My Real Email Address To Or That I Just Want To Be To Communicate In A Particularly Different Way Or Maybe I Want To Use Different Name I Can Do That Too And What I Have Not Is That If I Look In My Spam Box I Find Many Things There That Really Shouldn't Be There For instance I Gave This Email Address To A Credit Card Company In That Spam Folder Where Notices Of Potential Fraud From My Credit Card Company Which I Have Corresponded With Before On That Very Same Gmail Account Somehow Gmail Decided No This Is Spam You Shouldn't See This And I Almost Didn't See Not Doing A Very Good Job Because It Catching Way Too Much I Would Much Rather Get A Little Bit Of Extra Spam Than Lose Legitimate Communications And Apparently At Gmail That's Not A Consideration No That's True No That's Totally Like Real Life I Mean I Think A Lot Of People Go Through That So Yeah And Things That It Could You Would Imagine It Would Filter That It Would Recognize As Promotional Or Spam Like Those Should Get Triggered You Know Like Say Some Retailer Or Something That You Used Because You Didn't Want To Use Your Other Email Addresses And You Knew It Was Going To Spam People Do That All The Time Right Why Doesn't That Get Filtered And Put Into Some Kind Of Like Distinct Folder I Sure You Can You Set Keywords I Know I Know I Know I Know There Are Ways We Are Going To Get So Many Google Defenders E-mailing Us It Always Happens We Are Marching Right Now After We Get The Pick Anyway So The Long And Short I Don't Know It Is Curious I Think That Variability And They Don't Have A Good Sense And It Is Wrong More Often Than People Really Should Attribute To It I Was Going To Say There Was A Period Of Time Where I Was Missing Emails From You Because Gmail Just Decided That I Didn't Need To Hear From You Anymore So Everything You Sent Was Landing In My Spam Folder Yeah It Was A Weird Moment They Had It Out For 2600 For A Little While Because Almost Everything We Were Sending Out Was Winding Up In Spam And How Do You Fight That How Does A Small Company Like Like Ours Fight Something Big Like Gmail If They Decide That You're Either Not Relevant Or You're Negative And Must Be Filtered Out It's Something To Really Think About You Know The More Power We Give Them But There's There's Also Just The Pure Logic Of Like In Our Situation We All Email Each Other A Lot We Work On This Program Together And Other Stuff Together And Gmail Deciding That Somebody You've Been Communicating With For Years Upon Years All Of A Sudden Oh That's Fake That's Spam Yeah I Think Many Times The Gmail I Get Is Fake And Spam But You Know I Still Keep Getting It And It Makes You Wonder Because So Many So Many Small Businesses So Many People Individually They Rely On It And When It Comes Up When These Policies Or Platform Updates Or Whatever They Call It Have An Impact Like This It's Inconsistent People Can't Rely On It And They Really Really Really Are And Exactly Like Was Pointed Out With Gil's Email Throwing Their Weight Around With Policies And Then Pointing To Small Businesses And Medium Enterprises That Don't Have As They Are Not As Resourced To Go Digging Around And Reconfiguring And Changing It To Bow To Their Whims As A Massive Organization They Should Be Wildly Portable And Responsive To Interacting With The Protocol And Not Telling Everybody Else They Have To Change On A Dime Given Whatever Way They Feel Like The Wind Is Blowing Every Other Day So I Just There's Got To $45,000 To The RSLC That's According To The Center For Political Accountability CPA Not Only That Amazon Contributed $50,000 Intuit $100,000 Comcast $147,000 Google Amazon Comcast Wells Fargo Bank Of America All Of Them They Did Not Respond To Request For Comment Yeah But That's That's Where Some Donations Are Going From These Companies Which Is Kind Of Surprising It's Kind Of Surprising Blue Chip Companies Gave To Republican Groups Funneling Money To Lawmakers Who Overturned Abortion Ban Vetoes In North Carolina And The Headline Of This Story Which Ran In The Guardian Amazon And Google Fund Anti-abortion Lawmakers Through Complex Shell Game So Complex We Don't Have Time To Get Into It In The Remaining Moments But Do Look Up That Story It's It's Fascinating And Indicative Of How Motives Are Not As Pure As You Might Think They Are Absolutely And You Know The Companies That Are Willing To Put Themselves Out There And Who Have Painted Their Logos Rainbow Colors For Pride This Month And Things Like That It's Always Very Interesting When You Start Looking Into What Their Money Actually Does When They Get Into The Political Game Like This I'm Really Interested In The Corporations And Entities That Choose Not To I Think That's As Important As Whatever You Know Even If They Are Even They Give To They Contribute To Both As The Campaign Season Rolls Rolls Through I Mean There Really Is I Think I Think A Lot Of Damage That It Does To The Media Industry Just With How Much Money Is Spent And How Over Reliant Sometimes They Seem I Really Think There Should Be A Cap But That's That's Political Like Opinion I Don't Know It Just I Think For As Much Attention As The Media Gets They Really Are Not Doing Themselves Any Favor By Like Just Getting Gobs And Gobs Of Money From These Campaign Cycles And Stuff It Just It Especially With The Damage We Were Talking About With Fake Stuff And Then Okay So Like If If We Just Let The The Highest Bidder Rule We Don't Have Any Kind Of Like Journalistic Integrity I Know That Might Be A Quaint Term But I Really Feel Like You You're Going To Get Every Bit Of Chaotic Society That You Imagine Because People Come In They Don't Care About The Messaging That And We've Got Plenty Of Examples I Don't Want To Point You Know Name Names And Deconstruct It Here But That's Why Community Radio That's That's Why It Has A Different Model And Name That Name W BAI That's Right Yeah And Please Support This Place Because You Know You May Not Agree With Everything You Hear But What You Hear Is Our Honest Opinions You Know We're Not Both Siding Everything Which Is So Disgusting To Hear That In The Mainstream Where Basically Every Opposing Opinion Has To Be Treated As If It's Somehow As Legitimate When Much Of It Is Based On Lies Or Evidence That Can Easily And Has Been Easily Disproven And It Doesn't Do Any Favors For People Who Depend On These Outlets For Getting Information Finding Out What The Facts Are If You Give Everybody Whether They're Qualified Or Not The Same Attention You Know It's Like A Chat Board On A Newspaper Story Where Somebody Has Poured Their Heart Into Researching And Investigating And Interviewing And Following Up And Writes The Story And Then The First Comment Is Oh I Think It's All Stupid And That Person Gets Equal Amount Of Attention Because They're Given Equal Amount Of Attention On The Page It's Just Wrong It's Just Wrong To Handle Things That Way In My Opinion Yeah And The Sort Of Blurred Nature Of Entertainment And News And All Of That Is It's Changed A lot Because There's Now Entertainment In Politics So It's Like This Really Weird Mixing Of Things Of Models And Formats And So I Don't Know I Just It Is Really Really Critical I Think To Get It Right And To Just Inform People And Not Just And Not Be So Ad Oriented And I Don't Know I Just Feel Like We Could Do So Much More With It Even On Commercial Broadcast Mediums And If It Was A Little Bit More Sane Maybe Then When Sort Of A More Controlled Political Cycle Came Through People Would Be Interested In Actual Debates And Concern You Know Less Entertainment Politics Or Less Entertainment News Yeah And You Know There Is More News Than Just What We Are Seeing Every Day On The News Cycles Literally One Two Stories And That's It There Is So Much Going On In The World And We Basically Need To Pay More Attention To That And Our News Networks Are Failing Us Dramatically Okay I Don't Know How We Got Off Into That But We In The Middle Of Shaming Amazon At This Point And Just A Little Bit More Of That Every Single And This Is Not A Surprise To Any Of Us Every Single Amazon Ring Employee Was Able To Access Every Single Customer Video Even When It Wasn't Necessary For Their Jobs Not Only That But The Employees Along With Workers From A Third Party Contractor In Ukraine Could Also Download Any Of Those Videos And Save And Share Them As They Liked And This Is All Before July Of 2017 But It Is Kind Of What We Were Fearing Back Then The FTC Basically Are The Accusers Here And They Are Basically Confronting Amazon On This Amazon Is Facing A Settlement Of 5.8 Million Dollars And Of Course As You Might Guess Some Employees Abused That Access Right One Example The FTC Says A Ring Employee Viewed Thousands Of Videos From At Least 81 Different Female Users The Employee Allegedly Went Looking For Camera Feeds That Suggested They May Have Been Used In The Most Private Are Such As As Master Bathroom You Know I Mean Yeah It's Wrong To Be Spied Upon And I Get That And That Is A Complete Injustice But Why Are You Putting A Camera In Your Bathroom In The First Place What's What's Going On In There That You Want That Everything On Your Camera Is Going To Be Seen By Somebody Else Unless You Have A Completely Closed System Which Amazon Ring Is Not I'm Just Speculating On A Bathroom Camera Okay So Here's An Idea You Have A Cat And The Cat's Not Using The Litter Box So You Want A Camera In Your Bathroom To See If The Cat Is Using The Toilet While You're Not At Home That's Like The Only Reason I Can Think Of That You Would Need To Put A Ring Camera In Your Bath That's A Really Specific Reason But Yeah Okay And If Nobody Else Used That Bathroom Maybe That's Acceptable But If Humans Go In There At Any Point In Time No I Just Can't I Can't Accept That I'm Not Saying It's A Good Idea I'm Just Saying You Know It's The World An Idea It Better And It Had Better Be Only That Scenario Because The World Does Not Need More Audio Video From Private Chambers Where People Are Doing Business Is Anybody Surprised By This That Ring Had Access They Abused The Access They Shared The Access Well That's Why You Set Boundaries When You Do Camera Placement If You're Installing Or Setting Up Home Security Right I Mean You You Gotta Have Boundaries You Gotta Have Private Spaces You Can Still Monitor Access And Various Areas Of Concern But Here's The Thing Configuration Aside What This Story Says Is Every Single Customer Video So I Imagine Even If They Set Rules That This Is Not Viewable Outside My House It Didn't Matter They Were Still Able To Access It Well That's I Think The Nature Of A Lot Of The Newer Systems A Lot Of The Wireless Systems Easy Setup Stuff That I Mean Stuff That Is Harder If You're Running It Running Your Own Video System You Have A Lot More Control But Even Those A Lot More Have Sort Of Backups Or Cloud Interface Using Internet Connections So You Are Trusting Whatever Storage System They're Exfiltrating All Your Nasty Audio And Video From The Bathroom To Go ahead Rob Yeah I mean If You're Going To Make That Decision As A Consumer To Outsource Watching Your House Then This Sort Of Thing Is Going To Happen I'm Fascinated By The Quote From The FTC Complaint Only After The Supervisor Noticed That The Male Employee Was Only Viewing Videos Of Pretty Girls Did The Supervisor Escalate The Report Of Misconduct Only At That Point Did Ring Review A Portion Of The Employee's Activity And Ultimately Terminate His Employment Wow Between January 2019 And March 2020 The FTC Alleges More Than 55,000 Customers Had Their Ring Devices Compromised In Some Instances Cyber Criminals Use The Two Way Communication To Terrorize Ring Customers Like Something From A Horror Movie It's Funny But It's Also Scary Here's Some Examples Several Women Lying In Bed Heard Okay I Really Object To The Way The Story Is Written This Is From Malwarebytes Dot Com But They Say Several Women Lying In Bed Heard Hackers Curse At Them Now Malwarebytes Do you Know Who These People Were How Do You Know They Were Hackers Not Just Idiots It Sounds Like They Were Idiots Several Children Had Racist Slurs Thrown At Them At Least Hackers Weren't Blamed For That An Elderly Woman In An Assisted Living Facility Was Sexually Propositioned And Physically Threatened A Digital Intruder Told A Woman Through Her Camera That They Had Killed Her Mother And Then Said Tonight You Die A Woman Was Told Her Location Was Being Tracked And That Her Device Would Self Destruct At The End Of A Countdown She Disconnected The Device Before The Countdown Ended Wow And Throw It Away Aside From The Fine Ring Has Been Ordered To Delete Any Customer Videos And Data Collected From An Individual's Face That Ring Obtained Before 2018 That's That's Crazy Because It's Biometrics That They're Using Presumably Once But It Ended Up Getting Exfiltrated And Now That Nice Well Formatted Information Can Be Applied To Other Situations I Mean Ah That's The Feature That Becomes A Huge Vulnerability Yeah Absolutely Hey We're Just About Out Of Time But I Just Wanted To Say Because We Haven't Mentioned It Yet How Nice It's Been Today To Have This Sort Of Reunion Of Everybody Walking Around Wearing Mask Skin It Just Brings Back It Just Brings Back Memories Of The Period From 2020 To 2022 Where That Was Prevalent Of Course The Reasoning Is A Little Bit Different Now We We Are In The Middle Of A Situation Where Smoke Is Coming From The Border The Border Crossing Is Out Of Control Apparently And Now Smoke Is Pouring Over The Canadian Border Into The United States And Joe Biden Has Not Done A Thing About It Outraged But Yes People Please Stay Inside Wear A Mask If You Go Outside Because It Really Is You Know Kind Of Accurate Out There I Don't Know What Do You Guys Any Experiences With The Smoke Oh Oh Yeah First I Want To Suggest People Go To Ayr Now Dot Gov That's A-I-R-N-O-W Dot Gov Just Check How Things Are In Your Area And It'll Let You Know If It's Okay To Go Outside But Yeah We We Have Had The Windows To The Apartment Close Tight All Day But When We Go Over By The When We Go Over By The Windows It Smells Like Burning It Does And That's Because It Is Not Here But Somewhere It's Burning Stay Hydrated Everyone Good Night Ask Me How I Knew My True Love Was True My Lost We Blind Something Here Inside Cannot Be Denied They Said Someday You'll Find All Who Love Are Blind Oh When Our Heart's On Fire You Must Be Alive Smoke Gets In Your Eyes And For Those Of You Who Want To Continue The Conversation We Will Be Convening On YouTube Channel 2600 In Just A Couple Of Minutes At 8 O'clock Join Us There Where You Can Call And You Can Also Be Part Of Our Chat Write To Us OTH At 2600 Dot Com We'll See you Again Next Week At 7 PM On WBAI And And Of Stay Stay Tuned To WBAI New York Good Night And welcome everybody to YouTube as we start another edition of off-the-hook overtime Kyle did you make it? 
Okay. 
I am here and I am. 
Okay. 
All right. 
Good Rob Gila. 
You making the sky planned We have made it. 
Yes, and can you verify that we are in fact on YouTube? 
We verify that we're on YouTube Not least because I forgot to mute the computer until right now. 
So you may have just heard us I did come through the microphone So, sorry about that guys Hello to everyone out there in the YouTube chat. 
We are keeping an eye on all of you And Just so folks know I'm not watching the chat because otherwise I would get distracted and you hear long periods I'm sorry Well, I'm looking at what somebody just said Yeah, and no, I'm not gonna do that. 
I will not play that game won't do it. 
Uh, uh, I might look I might look later But I'm not looking now, but we do have a moderator I don't know if the moderator wants to identify themselves or if we want to keep a secret. 
I'm happy to identify myself I am moderating away. 
So Folks in the chat. 
Yes. 
Yes, we are here. 
If anybody's got a question To share with us To share with us and Dude you're not supposed to wrap me out like that but if anybody's got a question for the panel and especially if the Phone lines are busy do feel free to pop it in the chat Ideally we'll be able to maintain a conversation between The folks on the panel and the folks in the chat and potentially anybody on the phone. 
So This is this is the plan. 
All right, so let's figure out how this can be used Advantageously, so we have a phone number 802 3 2 1 4 2 2 5 8 0 2 3 2 1 hack that people can call in and be on the air We also have this this chat mechanism. 
I believe the phone's already ringing and Is there is there a particular desired way people should use the chat mechanism in conjunction with the telephone or maybe? 
Maybe if you're shy you want to ask a question in the chat and not call us or maybe Because rebels taking all the time on the phone We have to get questions a different way. 
I don't know Any any suggestions are welcome, I suppose Yeah, this is still a pretty new technology for well, not a new technology, but for us Yes, it's it's it's a new mechanism for us. 
We're excited Just as a reminder, yes indeed phone line singular Tim that is why we are trying to ensure that we have more opportunities for people to chat just because of the out of the We all know dude. 
We all know just because of the You respond you're applying to somebody that we can't see and I'm sorry about that I'm maybe I'm the only one doesn't know what you're what you're referring to because I'm not looking at the chat and no You're not looking at the chat either, right? 
I'm enjoying this just sitting back and taking it all in but I'm sure if you said If it was super important Gila could say like what they just said and interrupt herself, right? 
That would be That's not how she rolls So she's actually attracting people to the chat because they want to know and that's why they're gonna go there That's what a moderator does people listen to the audio archive later It wouldn't make sense to you either because you don't see it unless you unless you watch it on YouTube We have it set up so that it'll play back the chat in real time But who knows how long YouTube's gonna be around for number one? 
You can watch the live chat back on the replay. 
But number two There is a certain guessing game that I'm reasonably willing to bet that all of us play and all of our listeners play and now In the chat, we're just getting to watch it happen. 
And that's what we're talking about. 
So Do we have a caller? 
What do I do? 
And we'll just if you know, you know, you know what that's about, but we do have a caller and it might not be who you think I just know that I don't really know myself, but let's see who's on the phone. 
Good evening. 
You're on off the hook overtime Go ahead Well, you're right Kyle I have no idea who this is They're very quiet though. 
I'll say that is anybody there The person not speaking that's who I'm talking to No, no, maybe maybe you have to ask them Kyle should we clean the cobwebs out of the phone line Is that we have to do? 
All right, I'll drop We're gonna drop what we're doing five seconds Do you want to try to see if I've taken on? 
Yeah that that works So we have we have a phone line. 
Yeah, we have a phone line You have to actually say something can't just call the number. 
Yeah. 
All right, the the phone can be the main channel or a back channel That's on us. 
We were a main channel or a back channel. 
We weren't clear about that. 
It's yeah, it's it's a conversation That's the phones more It's well suited for voice and chat is better for no voice You know what? 
I might have been the person might have called and then start a little conversation I don't know. 
I don't know. 
I don't know. 
I don't know. 
I don't know No voice You know what? 
I might have been the person might have called and then started looking at the chat window Oh, that's what happens then they got all distracted by that and forgot that they called Or or just put us on hold, you know, and that's that's what happens people put us on hold We have another call. 
All right, let's take this one. 
Good evening. 
You're on off the gov time I am and you're calling from st. 
Petersburg, russia. 
See it appears that I was right kyle It was rebel you thought it was going to be in it He always winds up being first no matter what there was a caller before him But somehow somehow rebel from russia was able to silence him. 
Wow. 
Are you really in russia? 
Yes, and you know what it's like Totally light here. 
It's three o'clock in the morning and it's it's light like if it's like eight o'clock in the morning Wow, okay. 
Well that proves you're in you're in russia then Uh, because no one else would have figured that out. 
Um, so tell us, uh, how did you how did you get there? 
Well, um, all right, I get got here the same way I got here last year I went, you know Turkey and came into russia, but this time when I came um, the uh immigration the um customs these did you know how like they sometimes do like extra screening like You know, they screen you, you know, um, i'm familiar ask questions And yeah, so, um, they don't only ask me questions like, you know, how long you'll be here and how long you stay and where How long you stay and where are you going and you know, what city you think you want to go back? 
They uh asked you uh, they took down the serial number of my cell phone and I wonder where that was Took down the serial number of your wow. 
How did they how did they access that? 
I I gave them my phone and uh, you know, they I I guess they asked for it or I don't know. 
Mm-hmm. 
Well, I mean, is there something that's written on your phone? 
Or did they do something? 
Through no, they uh, they do something they just you know, no, they just uh, You can get the serial number of your phone by I guess going to certain settings and uh, To make that one Yeah, it's probably if old old phones you would get like a printed label inside like under the battery But now since a lot of them aren't removable It would be like that in a setting screen about like system or about this phone, you know Hardware all the details about what versions of software basically rebel you had to unlock your phone for them You had to enter your your I assume you have a password on your phone, right? 
Uh, no, I don't actually you don't have a password on your phone. 
We found the last one. 
Wow Okay, um, that's very open. 
He's very trusting. 
I'll say that that's what happens when you come from queens, man Everyone's just so trusting the kind of person you are. 
Yeah First first he loses his bike and now he walks around russia with an unlocked phone and I unlocked not in the good way But just no password That's something okay. 
So now they now they are tracking you. 
Yeah, have there been any perks that come with this? 
uh No, I mean I I haven't Um, I actually get scolded once by you know, by a actually a I guess a transit, uh Police person in the metro. 
They asked me for my passport and I didn't have it. 
I I had it in the hotel It was a hotel like a block away from and they took me and said, you know You know took down my name and not that I could get it and they said well, yeah, I should have you pass that on And there are some countries where that is the law where you have to carry your passport with you But also I think in russia, they take your passport at the hotel so that could leave you in a very uncomfortable, uh quandary Well, they don't take my passport they have to have this little piece of paper I guess it's called I don't know if it's called cold press peace guy in russian I guess it's an immigration card or something like that and the hotel took a copy of that Okay, and of course I gave them they gave me my passport, you know and that back So I now carry those two things with me, uh when i'm When i'm here, hang on rebel gila has something to add. 
Go ahead Yes, we we do have a question from the chat, which we're going to relate to rebel which is Uh, why would any reasonable person choose to go to russia right now? 
But this is rebel we're talking I went last year Rebel that's not an answer that just that just doubles the question. 
Why why would you go twice? 
Well, I went to russia to moscow last year and I enjoyed it and I in saint petersburg and Uh, it's you know, but quite it's enjoyable, but I don't know if I like moscow better than saint petersburg. 
I think moscow's I don't know maybe because I had such a good time in moscow last year. 
I don't know Well, I mean saint petersburg is certainly a more attractive city than moscow. 
You you you see that right? 
Well, I don't know I mean The buildings the history. 
Oh my god. 
Look around Well, yeah, that's true. 
You know Go go to the peter the great museum the peter the great museum. 
He he collected. 
Uh, uh fetuses And they're they're they're preserved I'm, not kidding that that's really what he did And they named the city after him Okay, um Well, there are uh, well, I guess moscow's more modern because it had more than modern buildings. 
Oh, yes, definitely more modern Absolutely. 
How did you get to saint petersburg from turkey? 
Uh, I flew on turkish airlines from there I was going to go to uzbekistan, but I I didn't want to go on the plane for like 12 hours and uh, you know, um And uzbekistan didn't look that great and you and you needed visa in advance to go to uzbekistan all that Would have been would have been interesting for us though. 
You didn't think about that. 
Did you yeah I would have liked to maybe go to uzbekistan Would have been interesting maybe next time Yeah, well i'm looking at the women now and it's very you know, the sun rose at like I think I guess 2 30 I feel sorry the people I had to have the people up like thousand miles north of here in siberia There was I mean Their sunrise probably like one o'clock in the morning. 
Yeah, they're having a non-stop party. 
Believe me. 
The sun is out Uh now, uh rebel, are you feeling the effects of the smoke from canada? 
Not here i'm feeling the effects of uh, i'm feeling the effects of the white knights Well, they have those in canada too. 
But uh, you hear that folks the smoke does not reach russia Only here wow Okay, okay. 
Well I learned something today Um, let's yeah, so the white knights the uh, 11 o'clock it starts getting dark more, you know Doesn't get dark to like maybe 11 30 And then like it's like like 2 a.m. 
Or 2 30 a.m. 
It's light again Yeah in some places it doesn't even get dark Interesting Right, I mean that would be interesting to experience I think uh, rob has a question for you. 
Go ahead rob I do rebel. 
Uh, so when they took your phone from you to take the uh, serial number and stuff Uh was was your phone in your line of sight the whole time or did they take it off to the side? 
Where they could have maybe like put something on it You know, I was what I was in front of me Okay, all right So maybe verifying what might have already registered on the phone network or just writing it down in case something comes up on the phone Network or in some place where they're getting everybody's phone number that was in some event or something Oh, the event was the plane landing. 
I would imagine that now did they do that to everybody? 
Uh on the plane as well? 
Just you No, no, just uh, just they only uh kept it out Five or six other people that uh for extra screening and one person was from the ukainte united kingdom and Another one another u.s. 
You know person from massachusetts. 
It almost sounds like they were more suspicious of westerners Maybe interesting Anything else you want to share about uh, uh, first of all, how long are you staying? 
Uh, well, I got here last Thursday and i'm here until friday. 
Okay heading straight back Yep All right You must get some strange looks from u.s. 
Customs when you arrive from russia You know last year I didn't okay I mean i'd like I like to think you can just travel wherever you want to go. 
That's You know, that's our right to be able to do that. 
But um I wouldn't be uh lying if I if I hit you on the head Line if I if I said I I thought it was um, uh quite dangerous to uh To go there in this time Have you have you met up with any kind of hostility or do people just not know you're american? 
Or did I just spill the beans? 
No, no, I did. 
I mean they no just um No, I mean except for the thing with the transit, uh, I guess with the version of transport police was Telling me I should I think I keep my passport on me But I don't know why they're asking for a passport or in the metro but They do that. 
That's that's how it works in some countries. 
So you just have to follow their rules if you don't want to uh, I was Kind of surprised that last year in moscow. 
I had no problems at all Are you um, are you planning on visiting any are you going to be doing any touring? 
I mean, you don't have to say exactly what you're up to but um, do you have any points of interest or are you meeting up? 
and um, uh Getting some good some good food or or just uh, seeing some sites with with other people there or looking forward to anything in particular Yeah, I mean last uh the other day I went to um, one of the kinds of town near uh, near uh not finland, but uh Estonia, okay, and there are some like 50 miles like, uh south of here or southwest, I guess you could you could You could take a train to helsinki and then there's a ferry, uh that goes to telen Uh, which um, yeah, and I and I went to the town near that near the finland border Well, that's that's good let's see that that was it was interesting to see the town the towns outside the cities, right Can I outside? 
Absolutely and you see the transition in different, um, you know different, uh States of development and and uh, you know what's going on and and uh industry and all that It's the best part I think of being able to relax on a train and pay attention to stuff Hey, uh, while while you're in saint petersburg, I don't know if it's still there, but when I was there, uh, there's a a cafe or a pub called the idiot pub Uh, or it's it's that's the name of it. 
It's it's after dostoevsky's the idiot Uh, and it's uh, it's a really cool place. 
So if that's still there I I recommend going there Okay, I went to a place, uh called, uh, uh the punk room And that's on the rubenstein street, which is one of the main restaurants and bar uh strips in uh, saint petersburg and Really interesting like alternative period, you know You see a lot of things like what you see on like say march places if you want skateboards and and you know uh Bicycles a bright bicycles on the sidewalk here um All sorts of like teenagers hanging out and just like, you know, just like in the united states Yeah, that's that's how it is all around the world. 
And uh, that's It's good that you see that that's that's the positivity that can come out of a trip like this Right and there's no 2600 meeting in saint petersburg. 
It's just I think there were Before all the craziness started but uh, we do have them I believe in moscow I I can look this up. 
I just looked up the idiot and that it does still exist It's actually a vegetarian restaurant, but um, it's uh, it's got a bar attached to it. 
I think Oh, yeah, I was drinking, uh, you know, like the russian vodka I you know And well, I have half of it left and I don't know, you know, what I don't want to drink anymore You might have to I don't think you can take it on the plane No, i'm not going to maybe i'll just leave it here I don't know who would want Actually, I just looked it up. 
We don't have we don't have a meeting in moscow or saint petersburg. 
We have a meeting in petra zavodsk Yeah, so if you know where that is, that's where the sole 2600 meeting takes place in in russia Hopefully hopefully we get the other cities back Hmm Maybe it's in the moscow area or the saint petersburg area. 
Yeah, I mean that would be the place to have them but um between covid and and and this war thing Uh, it's it's been tough Yeah, I wish I could go to other cities like like kazan and ufa and grassy and you know I mean, it'll probably be boring because hop on the trans-siberian express you you would actually like the trans-siberian express just take it to beijing Yeah, I've been spending like seven days on a train or five days. 
Well, you know You can you can get off at various stops and you can uh, stay a day or two in those places That's that's what I did And if you buy the ticket in russia, I think it's much cheaper Right, but of course you need to have a visa that that will cover that amount of time Right, yeah And he has a return flight to catch so that's true that's the next trip But it's good that you're breaking it up. 
You're seeing what you want to see and you can't just have one trip and just have Experienced all there is especially in a country like uh like that Right and this uh, this uh, this White night thing is sure, you know, it's like I feel like getting up now because but It's almost 3 30 in the morning, I mean, you know, I go to sleep sometimes in the middle of the day and Wake up and go to dinner Yeah, time doesn't work the same way over there right Well any any uh closing thoughts rebel because we want to keep you up too much longer Okay. 
Yeah. 
Uh, I just noticed that somebody uh, uh, uh told me that there's a uh direct Uh number to go to at&t operator. 
It's the um, you know The operator number it's in florida. 
Shall I give out the phone number? 
Is it in saint petersburg florida? 
Because that would be kind of funny Uh, I don't know if it's saint petersburg florida or I think it's a campus You should tell people you made a big mistake and you meant to go to florida and somehow you wound up in saint petersburg Russia and see if anybody believes that Hang on, uh, rob has a question for you. 
Hang on rebel. 
Go ahead. 
Rob. 
I I do rebel I'm curious if you're into sharing this. 
Uh, what are you? 
How how are you calling us? 
What if uh, you've enabled for a uh phone to make calls on? 
Oh, um, actually, um the uh, I use google voice Okay I don't know that still work, you know Yes, yeah, I would say it's Definitely not a foreign number No, I use it that's the google voice number and uh This is the way when you call from other countries you you know If you have a google voice account you call as if you're calling from the united states How does the number show up on caller id kyle Well, I don't want to reveal too much just the first part rebel What do you want me to say like the city or the state that show up as domestic? 
Should be like a 201 area code, correct? 
Okay. 
It's right. 
Yeah Also, it showed up with using a phone number you already had Right. 
Okay. 
Got it So if I was using a regular cell phone, you know, it would cost me 25 cents a minute Which you know used to be considered cheap compared to some of the rates that we used to have to deal with back in the day, right Like I need five dollars for the first minute and like a dollar each additional minute and all that. 
That's right Those are the days All right, rebel. 
Um, so, uh, will you be there next week? 
No, you're leaving this later. 
No, I'm leaving friday I'm leaving friday. 
So it'll be a total Wednesday, I'll call again from from home Okay And I'll be 2600 meeting in july. 
That's right. 
Yes Uh, well, hopefully, uh, you'll have the traveling bug out of your system by then and won't go to any more dangerous places Not that russia is necessarily dangerous and st. 
Petersburg certainly is is one of the better places you could be I think Good on you for getting out and exploring though. 
Yeah And thanks for reporting and uh telling us letting us join you uh for this little bit of it Right No, I don't want to go to sleep. 
That's it's like when you were here. 
Was it like this when you were here? 
You weren't in peter. 
I mean, well, I mean they had the same They were they had the same latitude. 
So um, if I was there in the summertime, then it would have been light much later Uh, and I think I was at one point I'm, pretty sure I was there in the in it wasn't in the winter. 
I would have remembered that So you just you adjust, you know, they have uh thick curtains on the windows and um, you just uh Yeah, you you have to acclimate Hmm Right, let's say yeah and it gets dark at 11 o'clock at night here Yeah, and then it gets light again at two o'clock we we heard Well, we're gonna move on and um, you should get some sleep. 
All right. 
All right. 
Be well. 
Yeah. 
Have fun. 
Okay Take care. 
All right And that was rebel joining us from saint petersburg russia If we believe him, I i'm pretty sure he was It's the kind of thing he would do so again Our phone number 802-321-4225 802-321-HAC if anyone else out there wants to join the conversation or share some Insight or experiences or things like that Yeah, and you can also uh relate messages to us questions, uh comments whatever in the chat on our youtube, uh channel Uh youtube, uh channel 2600 on youtube where this is streaming live. 
Um Petros petrosavodsk Where our one russian 2600 meeting currently is is in the northwestern corner of russia It's uh in the capital city of the republic of karelia russia and uh The name of the city is the combination of the words peter from peter the great and zavod meaning factory Well, that sounds like an interesting place and the same peter saint peter that saint petersburg was was named after Yeah, the the one and only uh, no, this is peter the first Who uh was the czar of russia in 1682? 
Oh different peter. 
Yes. 
Yes, not the saint But you know when you're talking about cities every tom dick and harry is named peter. 
Yes. 
Um Thank you everybody these are the jokes, um So also people are mentioning in the chat that yes trying to see all of russia on one trip would be Kind of complex because there are 11 time zones in the country um People are pointing out that russia itself is twice as large about twice as large As the united states i'm feeling my position as the um Off the hook research department getting a little usurped here Um, and that's fine That's we appreciate all of you. 
Um So Should we give out the number again? 
Sure Great, uh, and please uh anyone out there, uh on the phone With a phone handy you're welcome to use that and of course as we mentioned there's a chat, uh on our youtube stream which is uh on a Channel 2600 on the youtube platform and if you have a story something you saw that we missed we'd love to hear that too we always we can Uh, maybe talk about it another time when we're uh on the radio or uh back here but uh thoughts stories stuff that you were amused by or That might be uh something to take a look at in the future. 
We're we're really Interested in what people have to say you can also submit stuff, too um via email That address is oth at 2600 dot com Okay, I just learned the history of saint petersburg and I you know, this is not my fault Okay, I had always been under the impression that saint petersburg was named after peter the great Uh, and and look at this line here from from wikipedia on on may the 1st 1703 Peter the great took both the swedish fortress Of a city I can't possibly pronounce and the city of nien on uh, the anova river Um czar peter the great founded the city of saint petersburg on may 27 1703 and um Named it after his patron saint the apostle saint peter. 
So peter the great named it pete saint petersburg Wait scroll up for a sec Okay, no, i'm sorry rob also has this page open so emperor of russia predecessor himself as czar of russia Predecessor i'm sorry his successor as czar of russia was himself. 
This is fascinating but if you want to join in on this conversation, um about peter the great or anything else Uh, feel free to give us a call at 802-321-HACK Uh, that's 802-321-4225 And also Great. 
Thanks to our expanded off the hook research department. 
We appreciate you all I don't feel usurped in the least Because saint peter wasn't the one collecting fetuses and peter the great was doing that I didn't want to imply that a saint was going around collecting fetuses and and storing them in pickle jars So was he just doing this by association? 
He's just like yeah, i'm peter, but there was this other peter was really good so i'm going to be sort of You know catch a little bit of try to get some uh fame or some of that. 
Um, Association and and uh good thoughts because he had these crazy hobbies Okay. 
Well You live and learn right the new city's first building was the peter and paul fortress no sign of mary A lot of history on a jet plane a lot of history here so much Okay, okay. 
Yeah, 802-321-4225 and I think we have a call Do you have a call kyle? 
Okay, we do. 
Yes and good evening. 
You're on off the hook over time. 
Go ahead Hi, this is johnny fusion. 
Hey, johnny. 
How you doing? 
Well, i'm out of the nursing facility. 
Oh, that's good. 
Did you escape or uh, were you released? 
I was illegally dumped. 
Oh dear the thing that nursing facilities do is That nursing facilities do is they just uh Get rid of you in a hurry and they put me in a hotel for 30 days and i'm And i'm struggling trying to find a place to land Wow, okay, that's that's quite a story Yeah, and actually it leads me to what I wanted to talk about Because like one of the things i'm doing Because I don't have much money is going on craigslist and looking for rooms and small places to rent And Literally every single ad I answered turned out to be a scam Wow, how does how does the scam work? 
So how the scam works well, the first scam was someone just doing uh Doing the verification code scam You know trying to get into my google account and I sent you a code give me the code Right, so I didn't fall for that But the other they they sent they send you a code and you give them the code how do they get access from that Well when you it's like, uh, it's a reset password code for or Gain access code You know, but I got two-factor authentication and stuff so they they couldn't get in So so they email they email google and they say they forgot their password And google sends you a a code and then you you tell them the code Because you're fooled into thinking that the code came from them and not google and then they can get access to your account and you don't Yeah, so they had my phone number because I put my phone number in for text And they actually went to my google voice and tried to reset getting my uh Gain access to my google account. 
So it's a google voice portal, but google everything is all tied together so If you get into one google application, you're in the mall So what was the next one that you encountered So the next one and I think it was like organized by like some Um Organization doing the scam where it was just the same person on different numbers because they used kind of like the similar script Yeah, and what they do is they text you and they talk about They act like a landlord Right, and they talk about the room or the place And they ask you questions. 
Do you have any evictions? 
So they try to sound like a legitimate landlord And they say okay, let's schedule a time for you to come see the place But before you do I want you to fill out this application and do a credit check right Now you're not so you should so this is for everyone else there when you're looking for a place You should never fill out an application before you see the place There's no reason to pre-fill out an application before you see the place and agree to take it Right and what these what these forms do Is um They're used to do Identity theft or get your credit card number because of course there's a little fee for the for the background check or whatever they say And they're not legitimate at all So what what are um, what are your options as a I don't know after you get past all of this and um What kind of luck are you having or what's uh, your biggest obstacle and and what you've found that that might be suitable for for you know, temporary housing or Yeah, the biggest obstacle is because like because i'm you know Because of all my health problem and it and issues that have gone on for years. 
I'm on The social security disability, right? 
And that forces me to live In sub-poverty, yes Right because i'm priced out of most places So I have to find you know roommates Or something But I do got I I do have a fallback and I have the lead So, you know i'm running out of time in the hotel but um the fallback is i'll stay with one of my partners And uh They rent a room uh about an hour away From stanford, so I gotta stay close to my transplant center, right? 
and uh I could stay with them until I find more permanent placing But basically I I don't get it. 
I don't like their kids Fair enough, they're grown. 
That's a grown but uh, but you know, and I don't like how the kid Treats my partner and stuff like that. 
So and they're loud and so I can't stay there long just because it's just incompatible personalities Right, but any shelter in the storm And I have another lead back up in the foothills Near where I used to live before transplant where uh an ex of mine Maybe may have a lead on a trailer that she'll she'll put on the hookups next to her house and I could have the trailer to rent for a small price So hopefully hopefully i'll land Somewhere and i'll be safe and I won't be all around the street I think rob has a question for you Yeah, um, first of all, obviously, uh johnny We all wish you the best of luck in uh in finding somewhere to crash and uh and bettering your situation but uh, yeah, some people are mentioning in the youtube chat that uh, Scams are rife on craigslist right now. 
And that said, you know I've gotten apartments from craigslist in the past and it's it's done the job. 
It's worked but uh Even in the building where gila and I are living right now Um, there were signs up in the building saying if you're here from craigslist, you've been scammed We don't rent through craigslist. 
We have a broker and this is this is the contact info for them But enough of it is going on where uh, they they've got to post a sign now like that Wait, well who's that sign for people who have already moved into an apartment that they don't have any right to or They're in the hallway to read it Yeah, people who show up here thinking they're gonna see an apartment or move into an apartment But uh, but are not because they're talking to someone who's not involved with renting this building out And then they're like perhaps one of the people that had pre-filled out an application as as was described Wow, you ever see anybody reading that sign saying? 
Oh my god I mean we read it all the time and now i'm curious if we can actually find our building on craigslist You might you know, yeah These people could be anywhere like they could spoof a phone number And they have the same script Like there were slight variations. 
So it wasn't quite a bot But like and uh And I only confronted one and saying like I know this is a scam i'm not gonna Fall for it and they got really upset and started sending me pictures of a place and Trying to seem more legit This is so um true to life though like people want Something affordable they want something to to help with the situation and you either do this or you try to go through some larger organization and um It's just it really preys upon a huge need out there for options, you know stuff in between Like they're all low cost. 
Oh fully right very very meager budget beyond ssbi, you know, but Every single one every single one was a scam Like if like like i'm sure there's legitimate listings out there But they're all priced more per month than what social security pays Yeah, and there are so many other situations that put people at the same income level but it's this not to be excluded this is such a um, you know practical circumstance and the people are uh out there doing this you just have to be super vigilant and uh Hopefully we can find some more resources as a society or just uh in the conversation uh, but um, definitely keep us updated. 
I want to make sure You're uh, you're taken care of and you have options but it's good that you're you're reaching out to family and and uh and friends that You know can at least backstop you for another short period Yeah friends mostly i'm i'm estranged from most of my family, but you know, they're Conservative and boomers. 
I I meant that in the most in in a very broad sense family Chosen family chosen indeed. 
Yes Yes, indeed, yeah, but uh us included here we're just So, um Did you guys cover the story about the lawyer that used the chat gbt for a brief? 
It was it was on our list, but we didn't get to it. 
But yeah, we heard about that. 
That's uh, Another inevitable thing. 
But uh, what was your take on it? 
I thought it was Well, again if people misunderstand like we've talked about this in past weeks about how chat gbt and other large language models Will just string stuff together that seems plausible that has no basis in reality That's right and it's like and people are using these tools out of ignorance I think People have gotten used I think it started actually back in the 50s Like when you see something on a screen You just assume it's true Like walter cronkite wouldn't lie to you. 
No Well that I I fully agree. 
No you're on to this. 
I was kind of Kind of broaching a little bit earlier when we were talking about um, uh, just the trustworthiness of the media and how well if money rules like Lots of people there's lots of people with money But having money and like journalistic integrity doesn't all you know that that's often rare especially in and you know to buy up papers and industries and pantomime like a media organization and stuff it With fake or like in this instance automated stuff Is trivial like people spend money on stupid You know Wrongheaded things all the time and there are plenty of bad actors with the means willing to do this and maybe historically who already have And we're experiencing the the effects of it. 
I mean one of the things like even back in in in In the way olden days and print media like hearse and yellow journalism and all that stuff, right? 
It goes way back. 
Well, I think it's it's the democratization like the the costs The means of production is cheaper You you you know no longer have to have like a hundred thousand dollar tv camera on your shoulder um to go out and and Create content. 
I mean the content itself has been cheapened A lot of these places because they have been defunded in a lot of ways are running leaner uh leaner newsrooms and so forth so they're not producing at a level that had the bearing the Stamp of approval the trustworthiness behind it at in the 50s It took means to produce that so the interests were few that were doing it and they had a mandate to inform The audience and in that they were the only kind of the only show in town. 
So it's changed throughout history now It's like oh, we're all citizen journalists. 
Well We can all fake that too and I mean the means of production itself are so incredibly cheap now that it bears I mean to have um To have that impression that anything coming through a screen is is valid is um something that I think is being exploited here and I think Something I felt for a long time and I think we're starting to see um how how bad it can go is the the uh similarities with uh in A machine learning or an artificial intelligence. 
I think capitalism itself can be that without human intervention You have like these entities that are just operating You know mindlessly from board to board from buyout to um, you know m&a to Becoming just part of a huge portfolio in in these um, uh investment and and other um Vehicles that all of a sudden. 
Yeah, they're large media organization, but the their whole Existence is money. 
I mean that is this is the the um concept of media consolidation and um Its ill effect in being demonstrated en masse Well, anyway, this particular case. 
I just wanted to uh, um update people on it Uh involved a lawyer named stephen schwartz from the firm levita levita and oberman His whole career of several decades is now in jeopardy Uh, he was uh the lawyer for a guy named roberto Mata who was suing an airline avianca airlines After a serving cart injured his knee during a flight avianca was attempting to uh, dismiss the case get the case dismissed Um, and what uh his lawyer stephen schwartz did Was use chat gpt to come up with um similar cases and a chat gpt was very helpful giving names of the cases Uh varghese versus china southern airlines shaboon versus egypt air Peterson versus iran air many of you might remember that one Martinez versus delta airlines a state of durden versus klm royal dutch airlines and finally, of course miller versus united airlines Not one of those cases actually existed. 
It's very it's very similar to the movie that chat gpt made up No, actually it was bard that made up the movie for us. 
Um, so what this what this guy did was he relied on chat gpt to To help out which is you know a good thing to do But he didn't double check and had he done that he would have realized It was all fiction. 
Yes, rob Yes, not only did this lawyer, um rely on basically autocomplete to uh, write his legal filing for him But uh in a in a strange coincidence the judge presiding over this case is judge Uh p kevin castell who was virgil griffith's judge presiding over his case. 
Oh, he's a hard-ass in the in the u.s district He's always in a bad mood I can tell you that So so this is him dealing with that So knowing what you know about that that judge and having him have to deal with this Um, he i'm i'm sure he is not uh thinking kindly of this lawyer right now No, by the way, I just got um an alert, uh sent to one of our phone lines here about air quality we talked about it in the last hour, but um, You know, they have this uh this scale if you want to look at something interesting There's a website w aqi.info aqi means air quality index uh, and there's um, uh, there's basically It goes from I think zero to five hundred um Where where you are right now rob and queens it's about three 328 and there's parts of long island that are similar 325 There's there's um six different Uh categories there's good there's moderate Uh, there's unhealthy for sensitive groups. 
There's unhealthy There's very unhealthy and then there's the one that we're at right now, which is hazardous and what that means is Everyone everyone may experience more serious health effects So, uh, if you're in the area the tri-state area it's a good idea not to go out if you if you do go out wear a damn mask because um, I imagine there's people out there saying oh if I wear a mask people are going to think i'm afraid of covid and You know what? 
Let them think whatever they want to think and uh, you should be afraid of covid anyway But the point is right now you should be afraid of what's in the air And uh avoid that however possible. 
It's the highest possible Uh ranking I never thought i'd see something like this They say new york city today had had the worst air pollution since the 1960s Which you know is is kind of um, uh affirming that wow Okay, so we've come that far that it took us this long to to uh descend into that level of pollution But it's also something that's happening right now So we have to take it seriously be careful And uh, especially if you have asthma or any kind of lung issues, uh, stay out of the outside Absolutely. 
I'm uh used to be that that website used to be my friend when I was When I still had lung disease with my original lungs Uh-huh. 
Well, if you're looking to get lung disease, this might be the way to do it Yeah, I know I don't want to go through that again, I mean, oh actually I had good news I did see my immunology team and my underlying autoimmune illness is in complete remission. 
Awesome. 
Whoa Fantastic. 
That's outstanding. 
That's such good news Yeah Rob, you had something else Uh, yeah. 
No, I was uh, just gonna say i've been using the site air now.gov which I mentioned on our radio hour Which is basically the same thing. 
It's put up by the epa Um, and uh, yeah the same scale the same, uh totals and everything and you can look up any location In the country and all kinds of different pollutants and different air quality things and i'm glad that we're getting this service from the epa because I Have harbored a mistrust of the epa since 1984 and i'm glad That they're doing some good in the world. 
Yes. 
And why why have you mistrusted the epa since 1984? 
Ghostbusters. 
Wow. 
Okay. 
Well it comes out now I wanted I wanted to skip back to uh, trusting screens. 
Yeah, so I had another point. 
Sure um people trust software Especially yeah, because they're not used to computers lying to them If you're using an application and it gives you an error message or an alert of some kind That really happens and you have to take action Well, usually like when I was in high school and hacking We would create false computer messages for you know, because people trust computers and Compromise things that way. 
I mean the statute of limitations. 
I mean that was 35 years ago or more So i'm not worried about that your limitations, but we would use this trust For what you see on a computer screen generated by software to give false messages And uh You know, there was one thing we could do on on a vax System is we could hijack the login Script we had this other script that looked like the login script This is on vms It was a script that looked like like a login script And so you're putting your username and your password And the original version of this just said wrong password and dumps you to the real login while it collected passwords but then um My best friend made an improvement to it where it actually called the login function with what they put in so it was seamless Cool So revised it in and uh improved it Yeah You know, it's an old attack. 
I mean this is from the 80s and stuff, you know, so that you know We didn't invent this attack, but he did put in the little elegance of having it actually call the actual login service and attempting the password and Returning the error if it actually was wrong and not recording the password or just logging them in right Recording the password By the way, I just looked up st. 
Petersburg russia and uh, their their air quality is 23 It's it's it's as good as it could be in st. 
Petersburg, so maybe rebel has the right idea Maybe he does Yeah, another one we did was we put in On a doc machine at our high school for a computer. 
We didn't want other people using because we had our shit on there uh When it on the auto exec pad, it put up the message operating system not found insert any keys or insert a disk to reboot And we use some ANSI remember ANSI codes to make the prompt Black so the prompt was invisible black on black So it looked like Oh, there's no operating system on this hard drive, but you just press any key and it just boots up regularly Went in and we found a dos floppy disk in the floppy drive Because the teacher had tried to use the computer And believed it I didn't press any keys or anything just believed it and got a floppy disk to boot off the floppy It's start over That's brilliant, yeah It's a believing machines. 
I mean, I think the social engineering same thing. 
Um, you know creating a situation that's technical that You need someone to react in a way that they're not actually anticipating and that's how you get Yeah Yeah, and these scams are just a form of social engineering too because they go through the whole script like yeah Like this is the rent. 
This is where it's located. 
Do you have any evictions on your record or landlord judgment? 
Uh-huh. 
Um, what formulaic? 
Yeah. 
Yep Yeah you know trying to trying to come off like a real landlord and really they send you to this fake website that Steals your identity and credit card probably charges your credit card, too. 
Oh, yeah Sinister so sinister All right, we uh, we're gonna move on yeah we uh We are ready. 
Thanks for thanks for taking my call. 
Of course. 
Yes and best of luck to you Thank you, hopefully by next time I call i'm situated in a place yeah, best of luck with the search and and um and uh, make sure you uh Get get some rest as well. 
Don't get too stressed out over it. 
And it's it's uh It's a minor thing in the moment, but it's it's huge As far as you know comfort and and uh your ability to to stay healthy and so forth So definitely take care and we're we're hoping for a good outcome there Thank you very much everyone. 
All right. 
Be well May the force be with you Back at you johnny fusion. 
Okay. 
Good Um emmanuel, we actually have a question for you from the youtube chat Question is what year did emmanuel start with wbai? 
I'm listening to some of the old shows from the 90s It was kind of interesting hearing him reference political events happening around then uh 1988 was actually the first the first time I was uh, given a show Uh, it was a special the special edition of off the hook Uh, and um, I think that was the first year I walked in i'm pretty sure I walked in early 1988 Might have been 87, but I think it was 88 and uh, I I started doing uh work in the news department and then eventually just um, uh started doing I was engineering too at the same time and Moved my way up. 
So it was uh, it was pretty awesome I'd like to just comment on the listening back to old programs and that um That sensation you get when you hear older stuff and you're listening to it with current day politics or social phenomena it is a really um an interesting way to experience both the past in the present and hear how uh things come back around I I I've told this story a couple times, but I would listen. 
Um, because I donated to the station I would get um, uh, sometimes premiums were offered to get um Uh memberships and the the old programs were like a thank you gift. 
So listening to those and going back um I think I was I was doing the jobs and basically had some free time So i'd have it in the background and I did it. 
Um while listening to the current programs and when you go in in sequence There's a certain strange thing that happens after a while What the programs are about start? 
Having a weird synchronicity either it's coincidence or it's The fact that there are certain constants and things that come up over and over again But if you get into a good listening cycle of the old programs that are hosted on 2600.com especially uh oth or even um Uh voice of long island and all of those it's really fascinating because the things that are referenced in the past in the 80s and 90s And so forth they are still speaking to us today and um I encourage people to have a lot of fun with that if you have the time to do that and and are um, Uh listening for it because it's a cool sensation. 
I know exactly what they're referring to Go ahead gail and actually as far as that goes I just went to the off the hook archive on 2600.com and took a look back at the very first show And i'm realizing that you could have some sort of 35th anniversary extravaganza event At coney island maker fair because after the fire the first episode of off the hook aired on october 7th 1988 and the 35th anniversary will hit during coney island maker fair this october Okay. 
Well, I guess i've just been roped into doing some kind of special from there But uh, yeah, that's that's that's something I wow time sure flies Dunk tank, right? 
Yeah No, i'm kidding. 
I'm kidding. 
Well, it's funny because that first show was supposed to be on the afternoon I think it was in july And there was a fire in the empire state building where our transmitter was and every station that used the empire state building was Knocked off the air Literally two minutes before my show was going to go on. 
I was so nervous You know the first time ever off the hook would have been on the air in the afternoon and um, um, they said yeah, sorry, that's uh, Tough luck Well, we'll try to reschedule you and it took until october before another slot opened up and that was late at night And actually that turned out to be much better because it was able to be expanded from the initial one hour It turned into this big teleconference that um, our 10 line phone was able to accommodate that nobody else at the station had ever done before So a little bit of history was made there, but it was just so ironic Sitting in the control room on that july afternoon realizing that of all the radio stations That were knocked off the air. 
I was probably the only person doing an actual radio program Everything else was just playing music and the usual format And they had staff that would be on later the same day or the next day I was the only one that was really screwed though. 
Just I i've never finished. 
Um, uh processing that and it's just uh, Uh, it anchors me to this day when I don't know what the cause of the fire was But boy, it was it was it was well timed. 
But again, it all worked out It's amazing what the priorities are when you're behind The scenes when you're producing something you just want to get get what you have to say you want it to to come off sound good, you know make it a great conversation and There's always so much going on with uh, whatever the case I'm sure that was one of the fires. 
I had nothing to do with in 1988 Let's let's hope so. 
Let's hope so All right, we're gonna uh, we're gonna call it a night I think should we shut this thing down or wait another minute Are we doing exactly at nine? 
I i'm i'm in favor of doing it at nine. 
Yes Yes Well, so it was a pleasure. 
We haven't been on in three weeks. 
So, um good to see everybody again Absolutely Nice to be back. 
And again, thank you to our currently 24 Active youtube watchers many of whom have been active in the chat. 
Thank you so much for participating with us this evening um You know again nice to be able to have these auxiliary discussions going on Um in the chat people on the phone people on the on the show It it all works very nicely dovetailing together. 
Uh, we're working out the wrinkles. 
I think this is a good thing for all of us Oh, well, thank you very much for uh for doing the moderation and I hope it wasn't too stressful This was great This was great. 
All right, write to us oth at 2600.com. 
We will see you again next week. 
Good night   And welcome, everybody, to YouTube as we start another edition of Off the Hook Overtime. 
Kyle, did you make it okay? 
I am here, and I am okay. 
All right, good. 
Rob Gila, are you making the Skype land? 
We have made it, yes. 
And can you verify that we are, in fact, on YouTube? 
We can verify that we're on YouTube, not least because I forgot to mute the computer until right now, so you may have just heard us come through the microphone. 
So, sorry about that, guys. 
Hello to everyone out there in the YouTube chat. 
We are keeping an eye on all of you. 
And just so folks know, I am not watching the chat because otherwise I would get distracted and hear long periods of silence while I'm looking at what somebody just said. 
Yeah, and no, I'm not going to do that. 
I will not play that game. 
Won't do it. 
Uh-uh. 
I might look later, but I'm not looking now. 
But we do have a moderator. 
I don't know if the moderator wants to identify themselves or if we want to keep it secret. 
I'm happy to identify myself. 
I am moderating away. 
So, folks in the chat, yes, yes, we are here. 
If anybody's got a question to share with us and, dude, you're not supposed to rat me out like that. 
But if anybody's got a question for the panel and especially if the phone lines are busy, do feel free to pop it in the chat. 
Ideally, we'll be able to maintain a conversation between the folks on the panel and the folks in the chat and potentially anybody on the phone. 
So, this is the plan. 
All right, so let's figure out how this can be used advantageously. 
So, we have a phone number, 802-321-4225, 802-321-HACK, that people can call in and be on the air. 
We also have this chat mechanism. 
I believe the phone's already ringing. 
And is there a particular desired way people should use the chat mechanism in conjunction with the telephone? 
Or maybe if you're shy, you want to ask a question in the chat and not call us? 
Or maybe because Rebel's taking all the time on the phone, we have to get questions a different way. 
I don't know. 
Any suggestions are welcome, I suppose. 
Yeah, this is still a pretty new technology. 
Well, not a new technology. 
For us, it is, yeah. 
Yes, it's a new mechanism for us. 
We're excited. 
Just as a reminder, yes, indeed, phone line, singular, Tim. 
That is why we are trying to ensure that we have more opportunities for people to chat, just because of the, out of the, we all know, dude, we all know, just because of the nature of being. 
You see, that makes no sense. 
You're replying to somebody that we can't see. 
Sorry about that. 
Maybe I'm the only one that doesn't know what you're, what you're referring to, because I'm not looking at the chat. 
And no, Kyle, you're not looking at the chat either, right? 
I'm enjoying this. 
I'm just sitting back and taking it all in. 
But I'm sure if you said, well, if it was super important, Gila could say like what they just said and interrupt herself. 
But that would be, that's not how she rolls. 
So she's actually attracting people to the chat because they want to know. 
That's why they're going to go there. 
That's what a moderator does. 
People listening to the audio archive later, it wouldn't make sense to you either because you don't see it. 
Unless you watch it on YouTube, we have it set up so that it'll play back the chat in real time. 
But who knows how long YouTube's going to be around for. 
Number one, you can watch the live chat back on the replay. 
But number two, there is a certain guessing game that I'm reasonably willing to bet that all of us play and all of our listeners play. 
And now in the chat, we're just getting to watch it happen. 
And that's what we're talking about. 
So do we have a caller? 
What do I do now? 
Oh, I take the phone call. 
And we'll just, if you know, you know what that's about. 
But we do have a caller and it might not be who you think. 
I just know that I don't really know myself. 
But let's see who's on the phone. 
Good evening. 
You're on Off the Hook Overtime. 
Go ahead. 
Well, you're right, Kyle. 
I have no idea who this is. 
They're very quiet, though. 
I'll say that. 
Is anybody there? 
The person not speaking. 
That's who I'm talking to. 
No, no. 
Maybe you have to ask them, Kyle. 
Should we clean the cobwebs out of the phone line? 
Is that what we have to do? 
All right. 
I'll drop what we're doing. 
We're going to drop in five seconds. 
Do we want to try to see if... 
Oh, they're gone. 
Yeah, that works. 
So when you call... 
We have a phone line. 
Yeah. 
Okay. 
Maybe we didn't make that clear. 
You have to actually say something. 
You can't just call the number. 
All right. 
The phone can be the main channel or a back channel. 
That's on us. 
And the chat can be a main channel or a back channel. 
Yeah, we weren't clear about that. 
It's a conversation. 
That's what it's supposed to be. 
The phone's more... 
It's well-suited for voice, and chat is better for no voice. 
You know what it might have been? 
The person might have called and then started looking at the chat window. 
Oh, that's what happens. 
And then they got all distracted by that and forgot that they called. 
Or just put us on hold. 
You know? 
And that's what happens. 
People put us on hold. 
Are we having another call? 
All right. 
Let's take this one. 
Good evening. 
You're on off the go for time. 
Hi, I'm Daniel. 
Calling from St. 
Petersburg, Russia. 
See, it appears that I was right, Kyle. 
It was Rebel. 
You thought it was going to be him. 
He always winds up being first no matter what. 
There was a caller before him, but somehow, somehow Rebel from Russia was able to silence him. 
Wow. 
Are you really in Russia? 
Yes. 
And you know what? 
It's like totally light here. 
It's 3 o'clock in the morning, and it's light. 
Like if it was like 8 o'clock in the morning. 
Wow. 
Okay. 
Well, that proves you're in Russia then, because no one else would have figured that out. 
So tell us, how did you get there? 
Well, all right. 
I got here the same way I got here last year. 
I went, you know, to Turkey and came into Russia. 
But this time when I came, the immigration, the customs, they, you know how they sometimes do like extra screening, like, you know, they screen you, you know. 
I'm familiar. 
They asked you questions, and yeah. 
So they normally asked me questions, like, you know, how will you be here, and how will you stay, and where are you going, and, you know, what city are you going to, and all that. 
They asked you, they took down the serial number of my cell phone, and I wonder why that was. 
Took down the serial number of your, wow. 
How did they access that? 
I gave them my phone, and, you know, they, I guess they asked for it, or I don't know. 
Well, I mean, is it something that's written on your phone, or do they do something through the phone network? 
Oh, no, they do something, they just, you know, no, they just, you can get the serial number of your phone by, I guess, going to certain settings and doing it that way. 
Yeah, it's probably, if old phones, you would get, like, a printed label inside, like, under the battery, but now, since a lot of them aren't removable, it would be like that in a setting screen about, like, system or about this phone, you know, hardware, all the details about what versions of software. 
So, basically, Rebel, you had to unlock your phone for them. 
You had to enter your, I assume you have a password on your phone, right? 
No, I don't, actually. 
You don't have a password on your phone. 
We found the last one. 
Wow. 
Okay. 
He's very open. 
He's very trusting, I'll say that. 
That's what happens when you come from Queens, man. 
Everyone's just so trusting there. 
The kind of person you are, yeah. 
First, he loses his bike, and now he walks around Russia with an unlocked phone. 
And unlocked, not in the good way, but just no password. 
That's something. 
Okay, so now they are tracking you. 
Yeah, have there been any perks that come with this? 
No, I mean, I haven't. 
I actually get scolded once by, you know, by a, actually, I guess a transit police person in the metro. 
They asked me for my passport, and I didn't have it. 
I had it in the hotel. 
It was a hotel like a block away from. 
And they took me and said, you know, you know, took around my name and not that I could get it. 
And they said, well, yeah, I should have your passport on you. 
There are some countries where that is the law, where you have to carry your passport with you. 
But also, I think in Russia, they take your passport at the hotel. 
So that could leave you in a very uncomfortable quandary. 
Well, they don't take my passport. 
They have this little piece of paper. 
I guess it's called, I don't know if it's called, it's called Presbytska in Russian. 
I guess it's an immigration card or something like that. 
And the hotel took a copy of that. 
Okay. 
And, of course, they gave me my passport, you know, and that back. 
So I now carry those two things with me when I'm here. 
Hang on, Rebel. 
Gila has something to add. 
Go ahead. 
Yes, we do have a question from the chat, which we're going to relate to Rebel, which is, why would any reasonable person choose to go to Russia right now? 
This is Rebel we're talking to. 
I went last year. 
Wait, Rebel, that's not an answer. 
That just doubles the question. 
Why would you go twice? 
Well, I went to Russia, to Moscow last year, and I enjoyed it. 
And I'm in St. 
Petersburg, and it's, you know, a little bit quite, it's enjoyable. 
But I don't know if I like Moscow better than St. 
Petersburg. 
I think Moscow is, I don't know, maybe because I had such a good time in Moscow. 
I don't know. 
Well, I mean, St. 
Petersburg is certainly a more attractive city than Moscow. 
You see that, right? 
Well, I don't know. 
I mean, I guess there's... 
The buildings, the history. 
Oh, my God. 
Look around. 
Well, yeah, that's true. 
Go to the Peter the Great Museum. 
Peter the Great Museum, he collected fetuses, and they're preserved. 
I'm not kidding. 
That's really what he did. 
And they named the city after him. 
Okay. 
Well, there are... 
Well, I guess Moscow's more modern, because it had the modern buildings. 
Oh, yes, definitely more modern. 
Absolutely. 
How did you get to St. 
Petersburg from Turkey? 
I flew on Turkish Airlines from there. 
I was going to go to Uzbekistan, but I didn't want to go on the plane for, like, 12 hours. 
And, you know, and Uzbekistan didn't look that great. 
And you needed to be there in advance to go to Uzbekistan and all that. 
Would have been interesting for us, though. 
You didn't think about that, did you? 
Yeah, I would have liked to maybe go to Uzbekistan. 
We'd have been interested. 
Maybe next time. 
Oh, yeah. 
Yeah, well, I'm looking out the window now, and it's very... 
You know, the sun rose at, like, I think, I guess, 2.30. 
I feel sorry. 
The people... 
I don't know how the people up, like, a thousand miles north is here in Siberia. 
There was, I mean... 
Their sun rise probably at, like, 1 o'clock in the morning. 
Yeah, they're having a non-stop party. 
Believe me, the sun is out. 
So, now, Rebel, are you feeling the effects of the smoke from Canada? 
Not here. 
Wow. 
I'm feeling the effects of the... 
I'm feeling the effects of the White Knights. 
Well, they have those in Canada, too. 
But you hear that, folks? 
The smoke does not reach Russia. 
Only here. 
Wow. 
Okay. 
Well, I learned something today. 
Yeah. 
So, the White Knights, the 11 o'clock, it starts getting dark. 
You know, it doesn't get dark until, like, maybe 11.30. 
And then, like, it's, like, 2 a.m. 
or 2.30 a.m., it's light again. 
Mm-hmm. 
Yeah. 
And some places, it doesn't even get dark. 
Right. 
That would be interesting to experience. 
I think Rob has a question for you. 
Go ahead, Rob. 
I do. 
Rebel, so, when they took your phone from you to take the serial number and stuff, was your phone in your line of sight the whole time, or did they take it off to the side where they could have maybe, like, put something on it? 
No, I was, well, I was, they did it in front of me. 
Okay. 
All right. 
So, maybe verifying what might have already registered on the phone network, or just writing it down in case something comes up on the phone network, or in some place where they're getting everybody's phone number that was in some event or something. 
Oh, the event was the plane landing, I would imagine. 
Now, did they do that to everybody on the plane as well, or just you? 
No, no, just, just, they only kept about, maybe five or six other people that, for extra screening, and one person was from the United Kingdom, and another one, another U.S., you know, person from Massachusetts. 
It almost sounds like they were more suspicious of Westerners. 
No, maybe. 
Interesting. 
Anything else you want to share about, first of all, how long are you staying? 
Well, I got here last Thursday, and I'm here until Friday. 
Okay, heading straight back? 
Yep. 
All right. 
You must get some strange looks from U.S. 
customs when you arrive from Russia. 
You know, last year I didn't. 
Okay. 
I mean, I'd like to think you can just travel wherever you want to go. 
That's, you know, that's our right to be able to do that, but I wouldn't be lying if I said I thought it was quite dangerous to go there in this time. 
Have you met up with any kind of hostility, or do people just not know you're American? 
Or did I just spill the beans by saying that? 
No, I mean, except for the thing with the transit, I guess, with the version of transit police was telling me I should keep my passport on me, but I don't know whether they're asking for a passport or in the metro, but... 
They do that. 
That's how it works in some countries, so you just have to follow their rules if you don't want to... 
Yeah, because I was kind of surprised that last year in Moscow I had no problems at all. 
Are you planning on visiting any... 
Are you going to be doing any touring? 
I mean, you don't have to say exactly what you're up to, but do you have any points of interest, or are you meeting up and getting some good food, or just seeing some sites with other people there, or looking forward to anything in particular? 
Yeah, I mean, the other day I went to a lot of kinds of towns near, not Finland, but Estonia. 
Okay. 
And near Estonia, like 50 miles south of here, or is that west, I guess? 
You could, yeah, you could take a train to Helsinki, and then there's a ferry that goes to Tallinn, which... 
Yeah, and I went to the town near that, near the Finland border. 
Uh-huh. 
Well, that's good. 
Let's see, then. 
It was interesting to see the towns outside the cities, like, you know, outside St. 
the U.S. 
version. 
Absolutely. 
And you see the transition in different, you know, different states of development, and you know, what's going on, and industry, and all that. 
It's the best part, I think, of being able to relax on a train and pay attention to stuff. 
Hey, Rebel, while you're in St. 
Petersburg, I don't know if it's still there, but when I was there, there's a cafe or a pub called the Idiot Pub, or it's, that's the name of it, it's after Dostoevsky's The Idiot, and it's a really cool place, so if that's still there, I recommend going there. 
Okay. 
I went to a place called the Punk Brew, and that's on Rubenstein Street, which is one of the main restaurants and bar strips in St. 
Petersburg, and really an interesting, like, alternative theater. 
You know, you see a lot of it, like, what you see on, like, St. 
Mark's Place, if you see people on skateboards and, you know, bicycles, they're bright bicycles on the sidewalk here. 
All sorts of, like, teenagers hanging out, and just like, you know, just like in the United States. 
Yeah, that's, that's how it is all around the world, and that's, it's good that you see that, that's, that's the positivity that can come out of a trip like this. 
Right, and no, it's too bad there's no 2,600 meeting in St. 
Petersburg, it's just on I think there were, before all the craziness started, but we do have them, I believe, in Moscow. 
I can look this up. 
I just looked up The Idiot, and that, it does still exist. 
It's actually a vegetarian restaurant, but it's, it's got a bar attached to it, I think. 
Oh, yeah, I was drinking, you know, like, the Russian vodka, I, you know, well, I have half of it left, and I don't know, you know, what to do with it, I don't want to drink anymore. 
You might have to. 
I don't think you can take it on the plane. 
No, I'm not going to, maybe I'll just leave it here. 
I don't know who would want. 
Actually, I just looked it up. 
We don't have, we don't have a meeting in Moscow or St. 
Peter's, we're going to have a meeting in Petrozavodsk. 
Yeah, so if you know where that is, that's where the Seoul 2600 meeting takes place in Russia. 
Hopefully, hopefully we get the other cities back. 
Hmm. 
I don't know what, Petro, maybe it's in the Moscow area or the St. 
Petersburg area? 
Yeah, I mean, that would be the place to have them, but between COVID and this war thing, it's been tough. 
Yeah, I wish I could go to other cities like Kazan and Ufa and Grazny, and, you know, I mean, it would probably be boring, because... 
Hop on the Trans-Siberian Express. 
You would actually like the Trans-Siberian Express. 
Just take it to Beijing. 
Yeah, I don't, yeah, I'd spend like seven days on a train or five days away. 
Well, you know, you can get off at various stops, and you can stay a day or two in those places. 
That's what I did. 
Hmm. 
And if you buy the ticket in Russia, I think it's much cheaper. 
Right. 
But of course, you need to have a visa that will cover that amount of time. 
Right, yeah. 
And he has a return flight to Kazan. 
That's true. 
That's the next trip. 
But it's good that you're breaking it up, you're seeing what you want to see, and you can't just have one trip and just have experienced all there is, especially in a country like that. 
Right. 
And this white knight thing, it's like, I feel like getting up now, but it's like almost 3.30 in the morning. 
And, you know, I go to sleep sometimes in the middle of the day, and I wake up and go to dinner. 
Uh-huh. 
Yeah, time doesn't work the same way over there. 
Right. 
Well, any closing thoughts, Rebel, because we don't want to keep you up too much longer. 
Okay, yeah. 
I just noticed that somebody told me that there's a direct number to go to AT&T Operator. 
It's the AT&T Operator number. 
It's in Florida. 
Shall I give out the phone number? 
Is it in St. 
Petersburg, Florida? 
Because that would be kind of funny. 
I don't know if it's St. 
Petersburg, Florida, or I think it's in Tampa. 
You should tell people you made a big mistake and you meant to go to Florida, and somehow you wound up in St. 
Petersburg, Russia, and see if anybody believes that. 
Hang on. 
Rob has a question for you. 
Hang on, Rebel. 
Go ahead, Rob. 
I do. 
Rebel, I'm curious if you're into sharing this. 
What are you, how are you calling us? 
What have you finagled for a phone to make calls on? 
Oh, um, actually, um, the, uh, I use Google Voice. 
Okay. 
I didn't know that still worked. 
You know, you can, yeah. 
Yeah, I would say it's definitely not a foreign number. 
No, I use it as the Google Voice number, and, uh, this is the way, when you call from other countries, you, you know, if you have a Google Voice account, you call as if you're calling from the United States. 
What, uh, how did the number show up on caller ID, Kyle? 
Oh, well, I don't want to reveal too much. 
Just the first part. 
Rebel, what do you want me to say? 
Like, the city or the state? 
Did it show up as domestic? 
It should be, like, a 201 area code number. 
Correct. 
Okay. 
It's, you know. 
Also, it showed up with using, uh, a phone number you already had. 
Right. 
Okay. 
Got it. 
So, if I was using my regular cell phone, you know, it would cost me 25 cents a minute. 
Uh-huh. 
Which, you know, used to be considered cheap compared to some of the rates that we used to have to deal with back in the day. 
Right. 
Right. 
Like, I need $5 for the first minute, and, like, a dollar each additional minute, and all that. 
That's right. 
Those are the days. 
All right, Rebel, um, so, uh, will you be there next week? 
No, you're, you're leaving this later this week. 
No, no, I'm leaving Friday. 
I'm leaving Friday, so I'll be here until, until Monday. 
And, uh, Wednesday, I'll call again from, you know, from home. 
Okay. 
And I think it's a 2600 meeting in July. 
That's right, yes. 
Uh, well, hopefully, uh, you'll have the traveling bug out of your system by then, and won't go to any more dangerous places. 
Not that Russia is necessarily dangerous, and St. 
Petersburg certainly is, is one of the better places you could be, I think. 
Good on you for getting out and exploring, though. 
Yeah. 
And thanks for reporting, and, uh, telling us, letting us join you, uh, for this little bit of it. 
Right. 
I mean, now, I don't want to go to sleep, but it's like, well, when you were here, was it like this when you were here, or you weren't here, Peter? 
I mean... 
Well, I mean, they had the same, they were, they had the same latitude, so, um, if I was there in the summertime, then it would have been light much later, uh, and I think I was at one point. 
I, I'm pretty sure I was there in the, in, it wasn't in the winter. 
I, I would have remembered that. 
So, you just, you adjust. 
You know, they have, uh, thick curtains on the windows, and, um, you just, uh, you, you, you have to acclimate. 
Hmm. 
Right. 
Let's see. 
Yeah, and it gets dark at 11 o'clock at night here. 
Mm-hmm. 
Yeah. 
And then it gets light again at 2 o'clock. 
We, we, we, we heard. 
Well, we're going to move on, and, um, you should get some sleep. 
All right. 
All right. 
Be well. 
Yeah. 
Have fun. 
Okay. 
See you. 
Bye. 
And that was Rebel joining us from St. 
Petersburg, Russia. 
If we believe him. 
I, I'm pretty sure he was. 
It's the kind of thing he would do. 
So, again, our phone number, 802-321-4225, 802-321-HACK. 
If anyone else out there wants to join the conversation or share some insight or experiences or things like that, you can also relate messages to us, questions, comments, whatever, in the chat on our YouTube channel, YouTube, channel 2600 on YouTube, where this is streaming live. 
Um, Petros, Petros, Petrosavovsk, where our one Russian 2600 meeting currently is, is in the northwestern corner of Russia. 
Uh, it's, uh, it's, uh, the capital city of the Republic of Karelia, Russia. 
Uh, and, uh, the name of the city is the combination of the words Peter from Peter the Great and Zavod, meaning factory. 
Well, that sounds like an interesting place. 
Yes. 
The same Peter, same Peter that St. 
Petersburg was, was named after. 
Yep. 
The, the one and only, uh, no, this is Peter I, who, uh, was the Tsar of Russia in 1682. 
Oh, different Peter. 
Yes. 
Different Peter. 
Yes. 
Not the saint. 
The Tsar. 
But, you know, when you're talking about cities, every Tom, Dick, and Harry is named Peter. 
Yes. 
Um, thank you, everybody. 
These are the jokes. 
Um, so also people are mentioning in the chat that, yes, trying to see all of Russia on one trip would be kind of complex because there are 11 time zones in the country. 
Um, people are pointing out that Russia itself is twice as large, about twice as large as the United States. 
I'm feeling my position as the, um, off the hook research department, getting a little usurped here. 
Um, and that's fine. 
That's, we appreciate all of you. 
Um, so should we give out the number again? 
Sure. 
Great. 
Uh, and please, uh, anyone out there, uh, on the phone, uh, with a phone handy, you're welcome to use that. 
And of course, as we've mentioned, there's a chat, uh, on our YouTube stream, which is, uh, on, uh, channel 2600 on the YouTube platform. 
And, uh, if you have a story, something you saw that we missed, we'd love to hear that too. 
We always, we can, um, maybe talk about it another time when we're, uh, on the radio or, uh, back here. 
But, uh, thoughts, stories, stuff that you were amused by or that might be, uh, something to take a look at in the future. 
We're, we're really interested in what people have to say. 
You can also submit stuff to, um, uh, via email. 
That address is O-T-H at 2600.com. 
Okay. 
I just learned the history of St. 
Petersburg. 
And I, I, you know, this is not my fault. 
Okay. 
I had always been under the impression that St. 
Petersburg was named after Peter the Great. 
Uh, and, and look at this line here from, from Wikipedia on, on May the 1st, 1703, Peter the Great took, uh, both the Swedish fortress of a city I can't possibly pronounce and the city of Nien on, uh, the Nova River, um, Zara Peter the Great founded the city of St. 
Petersburg on May 27, 1703 and, um, named it after his patron saint, the apostle St. 
Peter. 
So Peter the Great named it St. 
Petersburg. 
Wait, scroll up for a sec. 
Spell what? 
Okay. 
No, I'm sorry. 
Rob also has this page open. 
So emperor of Russia, predecessor himself as Tsar of Russia, predecessor, I'm sorry, his successor as Tsar of Russia was himself. 
This is fascinating. 
But if you want to join in on this conversation, um, about Peter the Great or anything else, uh, feel free to give us a call at 802-321-HACK. 
Uh, that's 802-321-4225. 
And also great thanks to our expanded off the hook research department. 
We appreciate you all. 
I don't feel usurped in the least. 
Because St. 
Peter wasn't the one collecting fetuses. 
Peter the Great was doing that. 
I didn't want to imply that a saint was going around collecting fetuses and storing them in pickle jars. 
So was he just doing this by association? 
He's just like, yeah, I'm Peter, but there was this other Peter who was really good. 
So I'm going to be sort of, you know, catch a little bit of, try to get some, uh, fame or some of that, um, association and, and, and, uh, good thoughts because he had these crazy hobbies. 
Okay. 
Well, you live and learn, right? 
The new city's first building was the Peter and Paul Fortress. 
No sign of Mary. 
A lot of history. 
She was leaving on a jet plane. 
A lot of history here. 
So much. 
Okay. 
Yeah. 
802-321-4225. 
And I think we have a call. 
Um, do we have a call, Kyle? 
Okay. 
We do. 
Yes. 
And good evening. 
You're on off hook overtime. 
Go ahead. 
Hey, this is Johnny Fusion. 
Hey, Johnny. 
How are you doing? 
Well, I'm out of the nursing facility. 
Oh, that's good. 
Did you escape or were you released? 
I was illegally dumped. 
Oh, dear. 
The thing that nursing facilities do is they just, uh, get rid of you in a hurry and they put me in a hotel for 30 days and I'm, and I'm struggling trying to find a place to land. 
Wow. 
Okay. 
That's, that's quite a story. 
Yeah. 
And actually it leads me to what I wanted to talk about because like one of the things I'm doing, cause I don't have much money is going on Craigslist and looking for rooms and small places to rent. 
And literally every single ad I answered turned out to be a scam. 
Wow. 
How does, how does the scam work? 
So how does the scam work? 
Well, the first scam was someone just doing, uh, doing the verification code scam, you know, trying to get into my Google account. 
Uh-huh. 
Then I sent you a code, give me the code. 
Right. 
So it didn't fall for that. 
But the other one. 
They send, they send you a code and you give them the code. 
How do they get access from that? 
Well, when you go, it's like, uh, it's a reset password code for, or, or a gain access code, you know, but I got two factor authentication and stuff. 
So they, they couldn't get in. 
So, so they email, they email Google and they say they forgot their password and Google sends you a, a code and then you, you tell them the code because you're fooled into thinking that the code came from them and not Google. 
And then they can get access to your account and you don't. 
Yeah. 
So they had my phone number because I put my phone number in for text and, uh, they actually went to my Google voice and tried to reset, getting my, uh, gain access to my Google account through the Google voice portal. 
But Google, everything is all tied together. 
So if you get into one Google application, you're in a mall. 
So what was the next one that you encountered? 
So the next one, and I think it was like organized by like some organization doing the scam or it was just the same person on different numbers. 
Cause they use kind of like the similar script. 
And what they do is they text you when they talk about, they act like a landlord, right? 
And they talk about the room or the place and they ask you questions. 
Do you have any evictions? 
So they try to sound like a legitimate landlord and they say, okay, let's schedule a time for you to come see the place. 
But before you do, I want you to fill out this application and do a credit check, right? 
Now you're not, so you should, so this is for everyone out there. 
When you're looking for a place, you should never fill out an application before you see the place. 
There's no reason to pre fill out an application before you see the place and agree to take it. 
And what these, what these forms do is, um, they're used to do identity theft or get your credit card number, because of course there's a little fee for the, for the background check or whatever they say. 
And, uh, they're not legitimate at all. 
Hmm. 
So what, what are, um, what are your options as a, I don't know, half, after you get past all of this and, um, what kind of luck are you having or what, what's, uh, your biggest obstacle in, in what you've found that, that might be suitable for, for, you know, temporary housing or, um, yeah, the biggest obstacle is cause like, cause I'm, you know, because of all my health problem and it, and issues that have gone on for years, I'm on the social security disability, right. 
And that forces me to live in sub poverty. 
Yes. 
Right. 
Because I'm priced out of most places. 
So I have to find, you know, roommates or something, but I do got, I, I do have a fallback and I have the lead. 
So, you know, I'm running out of time in the hotel, but, um, the fallback is I'll stay with one of my partners and, uh, they rent a room, uh, about an hour away. 
From Stanford. 
So I got to stay close to my transplant center. 
Right. 
And, uh, I could stay with them until I find more permanent placing, but basically I, I don't get, I don't like their kids. 
Fair enough. 
They're grown. 
That's a grown, but, but, you know, and I don't like how the kid treats my partner and stuff like that. 
So, and they're loud. 
And so I can't say they're long just cause it's just incompatible personality. 
Right. 
But any shelter in the storm. 
Yep. 
And, uh, I have another lead back up in the foothills near where I used to live before transplant, where, uh, an ex of mine may be, may have a lead on a trailer that she'll, she'll put on the hookups next to her house and I could have the trailer to rent for a small price. 
So hopefully, hopefully I'll land somewhere and I'll be safe and I won't be out on the street. 
I think, uh, Rob has a question for you. 
Yeah. 
Um, first of all, obviously, uh, Johnny, we, we all wish you the best of luck in, uh, in finding somewhere to crash and, uh, and bettering your situation. 
But, uh, yeah, some people are mentioning in the YouTube chat that, uh, scams are rife on Craigslist right now. 
And that said, you know, I've gotten apartments from Craigslist in the past and it's, it's done the job. 
It's worked. 
But, uh, even in the building where Gila and I are living right now, um, there were signs up in the building saying, if you're here from Craigslist, you've been scammed. 
We don't rent through Craigslist. 
We have a broker and this is, this is the contact info for them. 
But, uh, enough of it is going on where, uh, they, they've got to post a sign now like that. 
Wait, well, who's that sign for people who have already moved into an apartment that they don't have any right to, or they're in the hallway to read it. 
Yeah. 
People who show up here thinking they're going to see an apartment or move into an apartment. 
Uh, but, uh, but are not because they're talking to someone who's not involved with renting this building out. 
And then they're like, perhaps one of the people that had pre-filled out an application as, as was described. 
Wow. 
You ever see anybody reading that sign saying, oh my God. 
I mean, we read it all the time and now I'm curious if we can actually find our building on Craigslist. 
You might, you know, yeah. 
These people could be anywhere. 
Like, they could spoof a phone number and they have the same script. 
Like, there were slight variations, so it wasn't quite a bot. 
But, like, and, uh, and I only confronted one and saying, like, I know this is a scam. 
I'm not going to fall for it. 
And they got really upset and started sending me pictures of a place and trying to seem more legit. 
This is so, um, true to life though. 
Like, people want something affordable. 
They want something to, to help with the situation. 
And you either do this or you try to go through some larger organization. 
And, um, it's just, it really preys upon a huge need out there for options, you know, stuff in between. 
These are all the, like, they're all low cost. 
Oh, fully. 
Right. 
Very, very meager budget of being on the SSPI, you know, but every single one, every single one was a scam. 
Like, if, like, like, I'm sure there's legitimate listings out there, but they're all priced more per month than what social security pays. 
Um, yeah. 
And there are so many other situations that put people at the same income level, but it's this not to be excluded. 
This is such a, um, you know, practical circumstance and the people are, uh, out there doing this. 
You just have to be super vigilant and, uh, hopefully we can find some more resources as a society or, or just, uh, in the conversation. 
Uh, but, um, definitely keep us updated. 
I want to make sure you're, uh, you're taken care of and you have options, but it's good that you're, you're reaching out to family and, and, uh, and friends that, you know, can at least backstop you for another short period. 
Yeah. 
Friends, mostly I'm, I'm estranged from most of my family, but you know, they're conservative and boomers. 
I meant that in the most, in a very broad sense, family, uh, chosen family, chosen and indeed. 
Yes. 
Yes, indeed. 
Yeah. 
But, uh, us included here, we're just. 
So, um, did you guys cover the story about the lawyer that used the chat GPT for a brief? 
It was, it was on our list, but we didn't get to it, but yeah, we heard about that. 
That's, uh, another inevitable thing, but, uh, what was your take on it? 
I thought it was, well, again, if people misunderstand, like we've talked about this in past weeks about how chat GPT and other large language models will just string stuff together that seems plausible, but has no basis in reality. 
That's right. 
And it's like, and people are using these tools out of ignorance. 
I think people have gotten used, I think it started actually back in the fifties. 
Like when you see something on a screen, you just assume it's true. 
Like Walter Cronkite wouldn't lie to you. 
No. 
Well, I fully agree. 
No, you're onto this. 
I was kind of, kind of broaching a little bit earlier when we were talking about, um, uh, just the trustworthiness of the media and how, well, if money rules, like lots of people, there's lots of people with money, but having money and like journalistic integrity doesn't all, you know, that that's often rare, especially in, in, in, you know, to buy up papers and industries and pantomime like a media organization and stuff it with fake or like in this instance, automated stuff is trivial. 
Like people spend money on stupid, you know, wrongheaded things all the time. 
And there are plenty of bad actors with the means willing to do this. 
And maybe historically who already have, and we're experiencing the, the effects of it. 
I mean, one of the things like even back in, in, in, in the way old and days in print media, like Hearst and yellow journalism and all that stuff, right. 
It goes way back. 
Well, I think it's, it's the democratization, like the, the costs, the means of production is cheaper. 
You, you, you know, no longer have to have like a hundred thousand dollar TV camera on your shoulder, um, to go out and, and create content. 
I mean, the, the content itself has been cheapened. 
A lot of these places, because they have been defunded in a lot of ways are running leaner, uh, leaner newsrooms and so forth. 
So they're not producing at a level that had the bearing, the stamp of approval, the trustworthiness behind it at, in the fifties, it took means to produce that. 
So the interests were few that were doing it. 
And they had a mandate to inform the audience and in that they were the only kind of the only show in town. 
So it's changed throughout history. 
Now it's like, Oh, we're all citizen journalists. 
Well, we can all fake that too. 
And I mean, the means of production itself are so incredibly cheap now that it bears, I mean, to have, um, to, to have that impression that anything coming through a screen is, is valid is, um, something that I think is being exploited here. 
And I think something I felt for a long time, and I think we're starting to see, um, how, how bad it can go is the, the, uh, similarities with, uh, in, in a machine learning or an artificial intelligence. 
I think capitalism itself can be that without human intervention. 
You have like these entities that are just operating, you know, mindlessly from board to board from buyout to, um, you know, MNA to becoming just part of a huge portfolio in, in, in these, um, uh, investment and, and other, um, vehicles that all of a sudden, yeah, they're large media organization, but the, their whole existence is money. 
I mean, that is, this is the, the, um, concept of media consolidation and, um, its ill effect in being demonstrated, uh, on mass. 
Well, uh, anyway, this particular case, I just wanted to, uh, um, update people on it, uh, involved a lawyer named Steven Schwartz from the firm Levedal, Levedal and Oberman. 
Uh, his whole career of, uh, several decades is now in jeopardy. 
Uh, he was, uh, the lawyer for a guy named, uh, Roberto Mata, who was suing an airline, Avianca Airlines, uh, after a serving cart injured his knee during a flight. 
Now, Avianca was attempting to, uh, dismiss the case, get the case dismissed. 
Um, and what, uh, his lawyer, Steven Schwartz did was, uh, use chat GPT to come up with, um, similar cases. 
And a chat GPT was very helpful, uh, uh, giving names of, of the cases, uh, Varghese versus China Southern Airlines, Shabun versus Egypt Air, Peterson versus Iran Air, many of you might remember that one, uh, Martinez versus Delta Airlines, a state of Durden versus KLM Royal Dutch Airlines. 
And finally, of course, Miller versus United Airlines. 
Not one of those cases actually existed. 
It's very, it's very similar to the movie that chat GPT made up. 
No, actually it was Barth that made up the movie for us. 
Um, so what this, what this guy did was he relied on chat GPT to, um, uh, to help out, which is, you know, a good thing to do, but he didn't double check. 
And, uh, had he done that, he would have realized it was all fiction. 
Yes, Rob. 
Yes. 
Not only did this lawyer, um, rely on basically autocomplete to, uh, write his legal filing for him, but, uh, in a, in a strange coincidence, the judge presiding over this case is Judge, uh, P Kevin Castell, who was Virgil Griffith's judge presiding over his case. 
Oh, he's a hard ass in the, in the U S district. 
He's always in a bad mood. 
I can tell you that. 
So, so this is him dealing with that. 
So knowing what you know about that, that judge and having him have to deal with this, um, he, I'm, I'm sure he is not, uh, thinking kindly of this lawyer right now. 
No, by the way, I just got, um, an alert, uh, sent to one of our phone lines here about air quality. 
We talked about it in the last hour, but, um, you know, they have this, uh, this scale. 
If you want to look at something interesting, there's a website, W AQI.info. 
AQI means air quality index. 
Uh, and there's, um, uh, there's basically, um, it goes from, I think, zero to 500. 
Um, where, where you are, uh, right now, Rob and Queens, it's about three, three 28. 
And there's parts of Long Island that are similar, three 25. 
There's, there's, um, six different, um, uh, categories. 
There's good, there's moderate, uh, there's unhealthy for sensitive groups. 
There's unhealthy, there's very unhealthy. 
And then there's the one that we're at right now, which is hazardous. 
And what that means is everyone, everyone may experience more serious health effects. 
So, uh, if you're in the area, the tri-state area, it's a good idea not to go out. 
If you, if you do go out, wear a damn mask, because, um, I imagine there's people out there saying, oh, if I wear a mask, people are going to think I'm afraid of COVID and you know what, let them think whatever they want to think. 
And, uh, you should be afraid of COVID anyway. 
But the point is right now you should be afraid of what's in the air and, uh, avoid that. 
However possible, it's the highest possible, uh, ranking. 
I never thought I'd see something like this. 
They say New York city today had the worst air pollution since the 1960s, which, you know, is, is kind of, um, uh, affirming that, wow. 
Okay. 
So we've come that far that it took us this long to, to, uh, descend into that level of pollution, but it's also something that's happening right now. 
So we have to take it seriously, be careful. 
And, uh, especially if you have asthma or any kind of lung issues, uh, stay out of the outside. 
Absolutely. 
I used to be that, that website used to be my friend when I was, when I still had lung disease with my original luck. 
Uh huh. 
Well, if you're looking to get lung disease, this might be the way to do it. 
Yeah, I know. 
I don't want to go through that again. 
I mean, oh, actually I had good news. 
I did see my immunology team and my underlying autoimmune illness is incomplete. 
Complete remission. 
Awesome. 
Whoa. 
Fantastic. 
That is wonderful. 
Outstanding. 
That's such good news. 
Yeah. 
Rob, you had something else? 
Uh, yeah, no, I was, uh, just going to say, I've been using the site airnow.gov, which I mentioned, uh, on our radio hour, which is basically the same thing. 
It's put up by the EPA. 
Um, and, uh, yeah, the same scale, the same, uh, totals and everything. 
And you can look up any location in the country. 
And all kinds of different pollutants and different air quality things. 
And I'm glad that we're getting this service from the EPA because I have harbored a mistrust of the EPA since 1984. 
And I'm glad that they're doing some good in the world. 
Yes. 
And why, why have you mistrusted the EPA since 1984? 
Ghostbusters. 
Wow. 
Okay. 
Well, it comes out now. 
I wanted to, I wanted to skip back to, uh, trusting screens. 
Yeah. 
So I had another point. 
Sure. 
Um, people trust software, especially. 
Yeah. 
Because they're not used to computers lying to them. 
If you're using an application and it gives you an error message or an alert of some kind, that really happens. 
And you have to take action. 
Well, usually, like when I was in high school and hacking, we would create false computer messages for, you know, because people trust computers and compromise things that way. 
I mean, the statute of limitations. 
I mean, that was 35 years ago or more. 
So I'm not worried about statute of limitations, but we would use this trust for what you see on a computer screen generated by software to give false messages. 
And, uh, you know, there was one thing we could do on a, on a VAX system is we could hijack the login script. 
We had this other script that looked like the login script. 
This is on VMF. 
It was a script that looked like, like a login script. 
And so you're putting your username and your password. 
And the original version of this just said wrong password and dumped you to the real login while it collected passwords. 
But then, um, my best friend made an improvement to it where it actually called the login function with what they put in. 
So it was seamless. 
Cool. 
So revised it and, and, uh, improved it. 
Yeah, you know, it's, it's an old attack. 
I mean, this is from the eighties and stuff, you know, so that, you know, we didn't invent this attack, but he did put in the little elegance of having it actually call the actual login service and attempting the password and returning the error that actually was wrong and not recording the password or just logging them in. 
Right. 
And recording the password. 
By the way, I just looked up St. 
Petersburg, Russia, and, uh, their, their air quality is 23. 
It's, it's, it's as good as it could be in St. 
Petersburg. 
So maybe Rebel has the right idea. 
Maybe he does. 
Yeah. 
Another one we did was we put in on a doc machine at our high school for a computer. 
We didn't want other people using, cause we had our shit on there. 
Uh, when it, on the auto exec bat, it put up the message operating system, not found, insert any keys or insert a disc to reboot. 
And we used some ANSI, remember ANSI codes to make the prompt black. 
So the prompt was invisible black on black. 
So it looked like, oh, there's no operating system on this hard drive, but you just press any key and it just boots up regularly. 
And which one is the ANSI keys? 
And one time we, uh, went in and we found a, a DOS floppy disk in the floppy drive. 
Cause the teacher had tried to use the computer and believed it. 
I didn't press any keys or anything, just believed it and got a floppy disk to boot off a floppy. 
It's start over. 
That's brilliant. 
Yeah. 
It's a believing machines. 
I mean, I think the social engineering, same thing. 
Um, you know, creating a situation that's technical, that you need someone to react in a way that they're not actually anticipating. 
And that's how you get. 
Yeah. 
And these scams are just a form of social engineering too. 
Cause they go through the whole script. 
Like asking you what's your, like, this is the rent. 
This is where it's located. 
Do you have any evictions on your record or landlord judgment? 
Uh-huh. 
Um, what else? 
Formulaic. 
Yeah. 
Yeah. 
Yeah. 
You know, trying to, trying to come off like a real landlord and really they send you to this fake website that steals your identity and credit card. 
Probably charges your credit card too. 
Oh yeah. 
Mm-hmm. 
Sinister. 
So sinister. 
All right. 
We, uh, we're going to move on. 
Yeah. 
We, uh, we are ready to. 
Thanks for, thanks for taking my call. 
Of course. 
Yes. 
And best of luck to you. 
Thank you. 
Hopefully by next time I call, I'm situated in a place. 
Yeah. 
Best of luck with the search and, and, um, and, uh, make sure you, uh, get, get some rest as well. 
Don't get too stressed out over it. 
And it's, it's, uh, it's a minor thing in the moment, but it's, it's huge, uh, as far as, you know, comfort and, and, uh, your ability to stay healthy and so forth. 
So definitely take care. 
And we're, we're, we're hoping for a good outcome there. 
Thank you very much, everyone. 
All right. 
Be well. 
We have the force to be with you. 
Back at you, Johnny Fusion. 
Go ahead. 
Um, Emmanuel, we actually have a question for you from the YouTube chat. 
Question is what year did Emmanuel start with WBAI? 
I'm listening to some of the old shows from the nineties. 
It was kind of interesting hearing him reference political events happening around then. 
Uh, 1988 was actually the first, the first time I was, uh, given a show. 
Uh, it was a special, the special edition of off the hook. 
Uh, and, um, I think that was the first year I walked in. 
I'm pretty sure I walked in early 1988 might've been 87, but I think it was 88. 
And, um, I, I, I started doing, uh, work in the news department and then eventually just, um, uh, started doing it. 
I mean, I was engineering too, at the same time and moved my way up. 
So it was, uh, it was pretty awesome. 
I'd like to just comment on the listening back to old programs and that, um, that sensation you get when you hear older stuff and you're listening to it with current day, um, politics or social phenomena. 
It is a really, um, an interesting way to experience both the past in the present and hear how, uh, things come back around. 
I, I, I've told this story a couple of times, but I would listen, um, because I would donate it to the station. 
I would get, um, uh, sometimes, uh, premiums were offered to get, um, uh, memberships and the, the old programs were like a thank you gift. 
So listening to those and going back, um, uh, I think I was, I was doing, uh, jobs and basically had some free time. 
So I'd, I'd have it in the background and I did it, um, while listening to the current programs. 
And when you go in, in sequence, there's a certain strange thing that happens after a while, what the programs are about start having a weird synchronicity, either it's coincidence or it's the fact that there are certain constants and things that come up over and over again. 
But if you get into a good listening cycle of the old programs that are hosted on 2600.com, especially, uh, OTH or even, um, uh, voice of long Island and all of those, it's really fascinating because the things that are referenced in the past and the eighties and the nineties and so forth, they are still speaking to us today. 
And, um, I encourage people to have a lot of fun with that. 
If you have the time to do that and, and are, um, uh, listening for it, cause it's a cool sensation. 
I know exactly what they're referring to. 
Go ahead. 
And actually, as far as that goes, I just went to the off the hook archive on 2600.com. 
And took a look back at the very first show and I'm realizing that you could have some sort of 35th anniversary extravaganza event at Coney Island maker fair, because after the fire, the first episode of off the hook aired on October 7th, 1988 and the 35th anniversary will hit during Coney Island maker fair this October. 
Okay. 
Well, I guess I've just been roped into doing some kind of special from there, but, uh, yeah, that's, that's, that's something I, wow. 
Time sure flies. 
Mm-hmm. 
Dunk tank, right? 
Yeah. 
No, I'm kidding. 
I'm kidding. 
Well, it's funny cause that first show was supposed to be on the afternoon. 
I think it was in July and there was a fire in the empire state building where our transmitter was and every station that used the empire state building was knocked off the air literally two minutes before my show was going to go on. 
I was so nervous. 
You know, the first time ever off the hook would have been on the air in the afternoon. 
And, um, um, they said, yeah, sorry, that's, uh, tough luck. 
Well, we'll try to reschedule you. 
And it took until October before another slot opened up and that was late at night. 
And actually that turned out to be much better because it was able to be expanded from the initial one hour. 
It turned into this big teleconference that, um, our 10 line phone was able to accommodate that nobody else at the station had ever done before. 
So a little bit of history was made there, but it was just so ironic sitting in the control room on that July afternoon, realizing that of all the radio stations that were knocked off the air, I was probably the only person doing an actual radio program. 
Everything else was just playing music and the usual format. 
And they had staff that would be on later the same day or the next day. 
I was the only one that was really screwed though. 
I've never finished, um, uh, processing that. 
And it's just, uh, uh, it, it anchors me to this day when I don't know what the cause of the fire was, but boy, it was, it was, it was well-timed, but again, it all worked out. 
It's amazing what the priorities are when you're behind the scenes, when you're producing something, you just want to get, get what you have to say. 
You want it to come off, sound good, you know, make it a great conversation. 
And there's always so much going on with, uh, whatever the case. 
I'm sure that was one of the fires I had nothing to do with in 1988. 
Let's, let's hope so. 
Let's hope so. 
All right. 
We're going to, uh, we're going to call it a night. 
I think. 
Should we shut this thing down or wait another minute? 
Are we doing it exactly at nine? 
I'm, I'm in favor of doing it at nine. 
Yes. 
Yes. 
Well, so it was a pleasure. 
We haven't been on in three weeks. 
So, um, good to see everybody again. 
Absolutely. 
Nice to be back. 
And again, thank you to our currently 24 active YouTube watchers, many of whom have been active in the chat. 
Thank you so much for participating with us this evening. 
Um, you know, again, nice to be able to have these auxiliary discussions going on, um, in the chat, people on the phone, people on the, on the show. 
It, it all works very nicely dovetailing together, uh, working out the wrinkles. 
I think this is a good thing for all of us. 
Well, thank you very much for, uh, for doing the moderation and, uh, hopefully it wasn't too stressful. 
This was great. 
This was great. 
All right. 
Write to us. 
OTH at 2600.com. 
We will see you again next week. 
Good night. 
Good night. 
Good night.