thank you for listening to off the hook the telephone keeps ringing so i ripped it off the wall i cut myself while shaving now i can't make a call we couldn't get much worse but if they could they would i hope that's understood one big nickel Thank you. 
Thank you. 
Thank you. 
Thank you. 
And I guess I am the only first hacker to bring my mom and grandmother to a conference. 
So it's kind of interesting. 
Anyway, I think I was born... 
By the way, my talk is going to last for about probably an hour, 15 minutes to an hour and a half, and I'm going to have a 30-minute Q&A, just so everyone's aware of the time constraints here. 
I think I was born as a hacker because at 10 years old, I was fascinated with magic. 
I love illusions. 
And I would hang out at the corner magic store for hours and hours just to find out the secret to a magic trick. 
I always wanted a bite of the forbidden fruit, the forbidden apple, and I always was in pursuit of information that should be secret, but for entertainment. 
I loved doing illusions. 
I loved pulling pranks on friends and family. 
Anyway, so about two years later, the first system I hacked wasn't a computer, wasn't a telephone, but was the Los Angeles RTD. 
You know what RTD is? 
The Rapid Transit District. 
So as a young kid, my hobby was riding buses. 
I used to ride buses around all the way through Los Angeles and San Bernardino. 
My mom worked long hours as a single mother supporting me, so Kevin had to find something entertaining to do. 
So one day, I'm sitting at the back of the bus, and I'm looking at the transfer. 
You know how you could pay a certain fee and you can buy a transfer to transfer on a different line? 
I'm looking at it, and it has a special punch, and it's punched with the date and the direction you're going. 
And you could use this as a ticket to go on the next bus. 
So I'm thinking to myself, about 11, 11 1⁄2 years old, this is kind of interesting. 
So I go up to the bus driver as I'm about to get off the bus, and I go, Hey, sir, where do you get these punches? 
I'm doing a special project for school, and I like the kind of shapes these are. 
These are really cool shapes. 
Where can I buy one of these punches? 
And he told me the name of the store in downtown Los Angeles. 
I get that. 
That was the first time I did social engineering, 11 years old. 
So I go to the store in downtown L.A., and I buy myself a nice shiny punch. 
And I go, Wow, this is cool. 
I can punch my own transfers. 
Problem was, is I didn't have any transfers. 
So I was thinking, my grandmother lived about two miles away from the RTD bus depot. 
And I was thinking, you know, human nature, people are lazy. 
So I think these bus drivers, probably after a long day of riding that bus, they take these transfers they haven't used, and they just throw it in the trash. 
So Kevin, at 11 1⁄2, became a dumpster diver. 
And I went into the RTD trash and fished out all these blank transfers. 
And I used to punch my own transfers and ride the bus system. 
Bus drivers knew what I was doing, because they'd see me boarding the bus, and I'd have the outline of the punch. 
Right? 
And that would be so bold sometimes to punch another transfer on the bus for somebody else. 
And the driver thought it was cute. 
Right? 
Everyone thought it was cute. 
No one told me I was defrauding RTD. 
Right? 
And I guess I have a little bit of a photographic memory, because I actually ended up memorizing the entire schedule for every bus in Los Angeles County. 
So if I knew I had to go from point A to point B, I knew what time to be at what place without referencing any type of schedule. 
So that was kind of interesting. 
One day I was riding the bus, and I met this other guy who was a ham radio operator. 
And this bus driver says, hey, kid, I found this radio on the back of the bus. 
Do you know what it is? 
And he held it up in H-T, Motorola H-T. 
And I go, oh, that's a police radio, I'm thinking. 
Well, that's cool. 
I'd like to listen to police. 
And he goes, no, this is a ham radio. 
So he introduced me to the hobby of amateur radio. 
And I was so intrigued, not with the radio, but of the auto-patch capability. 
That's making phone calls over radio. 
I thought the auto-patch was cool. 
I could have this little H-T handheld. 
This was like 20 years ago, and I could dial any phone number. 
And I thought that was, wow, I want to be able to do that. 
Right? 
So I won't go into my auto-patch stories. 
That will be for the next talk. 
But the most fun I had with radio, before I get into phones and computers, was the drive-up windows at McDonald's. 
Because you can clip a wire in certain radios, like the Alinko radio, and you can go out of band and transmit on any frequency. 
So we used to have fun at McDonald's. 
So the customer would drive up to the drive-up window, and we now become the McDonald's employee, because we have more power. 
Can I take your order, sir? 
Yes, I'd like a Big Mac, large fry, large Coke. 
Oh, I'm sorry. 
We have changed our menu, and now we offer super taco burritos. 
And we don't offer any sodas anymore. 
It's only juices. 
We drive customers crazy. 
Even to the point, and don't forget, we're young at this time, right? 
So we're a little bit crazy. 
We actually, with a micro cassette tape recorder, record ourselves like, well, one of us recorded ourselves urinating in the toilet, so you have the sound on tape. 
Driver comes up. 
Yes, sir, may I help you? 
Yes, I'd like to get a Big Mac and a large soda. 
Well, sir, we only have apple juice today, and our ice machine's broken. 
But we can get you a large apple juice, and it's on the house. 
Would you like that? 
Oh, yes, sir. 
Okay. 
Well, hold on. 
Is that small, medium, or large? 
And we play the tape, right? 
We drove one McDonald's so crazy that the manager came out. 
We're like a block away doing this, right? 
Manager comes out. 
He's looking in the parking lot. 
He sees no one, right? 
And he's looking around, and he's scratching his head, and he walks up to the speaker, right? 
And he has his face on the speaker, and I go, what the hell are you looking at? 
This guy's like, whoop! 
This guy, drug back, 30 feet. 
Don't tell the FCC on me. 
They already don't like me. 
So let's fast forward a little bit to high school. 
From the archives of the HOPE Conference, July 9th, 2004, Kevin Mitnick, in his first appearance at a Hacker Conference, giving a talk about what it was all about all those years. 
We lost Kevin on July 16th of this year to pancreatic cancer. 
And it's been a real shock to so many people around the world, and we're going to be talking about Kevin tonight. 
We're going to be remembering Kevin. 
And for over time, following this show on YouTube, you'll have the opportunity to call in if you have any memories or thoughts that you'd like to share as well. 
I want to welcome everybody. 
This is Manuel. 
Kyle's here. 
Yeah, I'm right here. 
We have Rob T. 
Firefly. 
Good evening. 
And Alex. 
Good evening, everyone. 
Yeah, that news, although somewhat expected, was still extremely shocking, surprising, dismaying. 
And I think everybody in the community has felt that. 
Absolutely. 
The loss of Kevin has reverberated throughout the community since word of it started getting out. 
And we have seen such a swell of support and fond memories and everything on various social media, on Twitter, on Mastodon, on Lemmy. 
And it's just been like there are so many in our community who knew of Kevin as sort of this cause to rally around in the old days, you know, the whole Free Kevin movement and everything else. 
But there are also those in our community who have had the chance to see him speak, to speak with him, to meet him, to work with him. 
And it was always a joy. 
He was a great guy to be around above and beyond the significance that his life had to the hacker community. 
He was just a totally decent dude, and he's going to be very missed by very many. 
Absolutely. 
Alex, did you have something? 
Yeah, I mean, I have, I guess, so many different memories and thoughts about Kevin Mitnick, because when I first came into contact with the name Kevin Mitnick, he was already a legend, I think. 
And it was probably around 1994. 
And I remember the first Hope Conference, right, when he was a wanted man. 
And one of the greatest things, I guess, I hope people still have these, too, but I don't know. 
I don't know if you did this, Emmanuel, or whoever did it. 
It was brilliant. 
But they made these face masks of Kevin Mitnick. 
Oh, yeah, I remember those. 
And everybody was, you know, walking around the conference with a face mask of Kevin Mitnick on it. 
And I remember thinking, wow, that is so cool, right? 
But the reason behind that was because he was on the run. 
I was talking to him pretty regularly at that point, didn't know where he was. 
And the feds were looking for him. 
And, of course, they were looking for him at the very first massive hacker conference, which was the Hope Conference. 
Over 1,000 hackers gathered in one place. 
That never happened before. 
And you knew they were looking for Kevin. 
So what better way to mess with their heads for everybody to wear a Kevin Mitnick mask? 
It was pretty funny. 
And then I think my first actual interaction with him was when he was a wanted man. 
He was on the run. 
And you would patch me into, like, a conference call or something where he was on the line. 
I don't know if you even remember this. 
I shouldn't have done that. 
You probably shouldn't. 
You were probably underage at the time, and I was corrupting your mind. 
No doubt. 
And look what became of you. 
You became a lawyer. 
Yeah, nobody. 
Let me tell you. 
Yeah, that's what happens. 
But I remember thinking, like, oh, my God, that was just so cool. 
You know, like, you know, I said hello to Kevin Mitnick once, you know, when he was on the run. 
It was a very neat experience for somebody, like, you know, 15, 16 years old. 
And then, of course, you know, he was caught. 
I don't want to jump ahead in the story, but he was caught and sentenced and spent time. 
And I guess it was federal president, I believe, right? 
And can I say one thing? 
You said caught and sentenced as if those two things happened anywhere near each other. 
It was years before he was sentenced, after he was caught. 
So, yeah, it was a long time. 
And but during that time, the Free Kevin movement was really extraordinary. 
And it was another thing that you did, Manuel. 
And I think that the image of the yellow bumper sticker, kind of yellowish-orange bumper sticker with the black lettering of Free Kevin on it is still iconic to this day. 
Yeah, yeah. 
I remember conversations we had while we were starting that. 
I had some involvement in activism in the past. 
And it was my feeling that, no, nobody's going to know who's Kevin was when you say Free Kevin. 
Because the argument was, okay, we have to put a website there so people can or explain what the case is. 
You can't do that on a bumper sticker. 
Basically, what you want to do is just get that phrase out. 
So people start asking, who's Kevin? 
And that's what happened. 
People started asking who Kevin was. 
And Free Kevin became kind of a mantra. 
There were some black bumper stickers, too, that had the website. 
In fact, he's holding one of those in one of our covers of 2600, I believe, in 95. 
And it was just a really weird time because all these people around the world started getting involved because they identified with somebody who was basically being demonized the way Kevin was being demonized. 
And blamed for everything that went wrong with technology, with telephones, with computers. 
And basically, you could see why he was running for so long because the way they treated him afterwards, after he was actually caught in 1995, they put him in solitary confinement. 
They basically did not sentence him for years. 
He eventually got out in 2000. 
But what we were trying to find out when we were making our documentary, Freedom Downtime, was what is it that he did? 
What are you alleging that he did? 
And that was a question we kept asking so many people. 
And we never got a straight answer. 
We just got people saying this is what he could have done. 
This is the potential. 
This is why he's dangerous. 
And it's kind of a microcosm of how hackers are treated as a community, as people, as the threat. 
You still read it to this day in news stories about some horrible security snafu where everybody's private information is suddenly exposed. 
But the story always goes, a hacker could have done this or a hacker could get access to never mind hackers. 
Anybody could get access to it. 
The worst criminals in the world, the worst terrorists in the world. 
Hackers are likely the ones that will discover it and patch the holes. 
And that was the point that I think all of us were trying to make at that period in time. 
And Kevin, he really, you know, victim that he was of this ignorance, of this hostility towards intelligent people, he got that message. 
He knew that there was a bigger battle going on. 
And he really, he was so strong. 
You know, he had so much taken from him. 
And he lost so much of his life behind the walls when he really should have been out there sharing his knowledge, sharing his skills, which eventually he was able to do. 
And I was, I was so happy to see him able to, to prosper like that. 
But just, it made me angry because of all the years that he wasn't allowed to do that. 
And I only hope that through his, you know, the tragedy that he lived through, maybe others were spared. 
Maybe some prosecutor somewhere said, this is not the right way to go. 
I don't know. 
You would probably know better than me, Alex, if that's even possible. 
But he, he definitely was not as angry as I would have been, having gone through all that. 
I mean, perhaps inside he was, but he was so gracious, so sharing, so giving. 
And I think that's how we'll always remember Kevin. 
Yeah, I, I tend to agree. 
He, he was a great guy. 
I remember one night when we all hung out, I think we were, I think it was a juniors or something, right? 
Didn't we go out for cheesecake or something like that? 
That would have been the right thing to do. 
Yeah. 
I'm sure, I'm sure we did. 
Yeah. 
I, I think it was, I think it was that, I think it was juniors. 
And it was really the first time that I had hung out with him, you know, as a person. 
I remember thinking, you know, what, what a great guy. 
It's just a good dude. 
And he became also kind of famous for his, his business cards. 
Do you remember the business cards that he used to hand out? 
Oh my God. 
Rob is holding one up right now. 
Rob, describe that business card to us. 
Okay. 
Um, first for the listeners, I'll, uh, I'll flick it with my finger and you can hear this. 
Don't hurt yourself. 
This is, uh, this is a metal business card, but not only is it a metal business card, it, um, it is, um, a set of lockpicks basically that you could pop out of the, uh, frame here. 
And, uh, you have a set of lockpicks and it's also his real business card. 
It's got, you know, his name, address, contact info and everything for his, uh, for Mitnick security consulting. 
And these became sort of, uh, coveted in the hacker scene. 
Um, you can find pictures of these online if you, if you look around and, uh, yeah, they, they were great. 
And it's just one example of the, like, just the spirit he had and a sense of fun around, uh, around the things he did. 
Yeah, I've been taking, uh, a lot of, uh, this time to reflect a little bit. 
And, um, those were some of the mementos he was always, uh, uh, handing them out. 
And, and, uh, I, I just remember, um, learning about his story through things like Freedom Downtime and, um, really growing around, um, some of the real life stories that hacking and, uh, the news and, and, you know, that were going on in real life. 
Cause I think a lot of that, um, prior to that, I mean, with the, um, the fictional movie hackers, like a lot of the way the media was like sensationalizing and kind of remystifying this whole identity, um, as a young person, um, realizing that, okay, actually there are people that, um, get accused of this kind of stuff. 
They get labeled this way and they actually suffer real consequences. 
And, and then, you know, sort of watching the documentary and realizing, wow, this isn't, um, anything like what you would see in the movies or what the media wants you to think of these, um, uh, this sort of scary, uh, character, caricature of, of what we come to understand of, uh, as hacking, which is, uh, you know, people that are really passionate, people that evangelize and share about what they know. 
And, and, and, uh, yearn, uh, with a fierce curiosity to, to understand how things work, whether it's a magic trick or, uh, whatever other system they're, um, they're facing. 
So, uh, it's been just great to hear other people's stories about Kevin and, and how they've sort of come to know him and, uh, what kind of impact it's had on, on their trajectory and, and what they've been doing. 
And, and, uh, I think, yeah, this story is going to live on in so many ways and, and, um, it's just been, it's been a bit jarring and it makes you kind of also get a little deep and, and stuff about, um, you know, health and looking in on others and making sure that, um, you know, you do your best out there. 
But, um, yeah, he, he bore so much, uh, uh, pain, I think through, uh, incarceration and, and, um, standing up, I think just for himself and putting even his own skill and acumen when he was on the run to, uh, his own self-preservation, um, knowing he was right, you know, deep down that, you know, this, this was being, uh, totally blown out of proportion. 
And just, uh, the, the, the survival instinct there, I mean, it just, it, it's, it's, um, emblematic, I think of what a lot of hackers, um, feel deep down when, when they're, um, feeling, uh, confronted and threatened by, by different systems or, uh, just by merely knowing something, um, and, and then trying to get a story out, um, it can be, it can be a real battle. 
So now, because it has been a couple of, uh, decades since, um, that part of Kevin's story and the whole free Kevin movement, um, I think it's safe to say that not everyone out there listening and not, not everyone in our community knows what it was all about anymore. 
Um, but I think, uh, I think Emmanuel, you can claim a great deal of the, uh, credit for publicizing that for first getting that out there and getting the movement going. 
I wonder if you could speak a little bit about what that was like for you at the beginning. 
Well, I mean, I, I don't think I, I, I get the credit for it. 
I think, uh, the credit goes to all the people who responded because, you know, we talk about a lot of things. 
We always talking about some cause or, or, or some injustice, uh, but if, um, if people don't respond to it, then, uh, it, it remains an injustice. 
And, and I think it's the reason that this, this basically, um, that, that Kevin's life changed. 
It's because of our communities, because people responded and, and, and stood up and literally demonstrated in streets all around the, the world. 
Uh, you know, in Moscow, there were demonstrations in Los Angeles or demonstrations, Chicago, everywhere, there were demonstrations. 
It was, it was incredible to see that. 
Um, and we were just able to, uh, to use technology, use various skills, um, make a film, get on the radio. 
Uh, WBAI is massively responsible for helping to get the word out. 
And, um, I don't know. 
It just, it, there, there were many stories of injustice at the time. 
There was fiber optic. 
There was Bernie S. 
Um, there, there seemed to be a lot of things going on in the, in the mid nineties for some reason. 
And of course there still are today. 
There is all kinds of other injustices and some of them are much, much worse. 
But, um, I just think, uh, the stars aligned. 
I think that's really what it was. 
Um, we had a magazine, uh, we, you know, had, had the, uh, desire and ability to tell a story and, and, and actually interview people. 
And go across the country and try and, and, and document this story. 
And of course, um, there was, um, there was the movie that was coming out that we were protesting. 
Take down. 
Do you remember that? 
That was basically, um, what, what had happened was Hollywood had decided to make a movie about, uh, Kevin's life without consulting Kevin. 
Uh, to the, to the degree where, um, he was still sitting in jail, in prison, not even, uh, being, um, being sentenced. 
No idea what the future was going to be. 
I can't describe, I can't imagine the kind of hell that is, uh, but he was living it. 
And, um, that was a problem for the screenwriters as well, you know, because, well, how do you tell the story if, if there's no sentence? 
So they basically, they made him guilty. 
They said, okay, he was found guilty in, in, in, in, in a trial that never happened and he was sentenced. 
So they just kind of made that up. 
And we thought that was, that was rather unfair. 
And that was, that was, I think the final motivating factor. 
So, you know, I got to give those people, those people who wrote that horrible screenplay and made that horrible movie, which eventually came out. 
It didn't come out in this country for a number of years. 
It did come out and was widely panned. 
And that's a nice word for it. 
Um, had it not been for, for that terrible action of theirs, maybe we wouldn't have been so angry. 
We would have been angry, but not as angry as that because, boy, you know, you're, you're, you're basically, you're, you're, you're writing fiction about somebody's real life when they're sitting in prison. 
It just was so wrong. 
And somehow, somehow, and I'd like to think that we still have this ability. 
We were able to get copies of every single revision of the script. 
So every time they made a change, we found out about it. 
It would, it drove them crazy. 
Like, how, how were the hackers finding out about this film and, and, and, and, and the, uh, the new scene that even the actors don't know about yet? 
Uh, it was, uh, it was really, um, uh, kind of, kind of crazy. 
What's funny is, um, Takedown was being filmed in North Carolina because that's where a lot of Hollywood productions are filmed. 
And North Carolina happened to be the state that Kevin Mitnick had been caught in, in 1995. 
So there were all these parallels. 
We were able to go down there and talk to the people making the film and then take a drive and see Kevin's apartment where he had been caught. 
It was just all these, all these, uh, weird coincidences that were happening. 
It just, you know, it felt like this is what we have to be doing at this point in time. 
And I, I hope that listeners and, and other people in the hacker community see themselves in a similar light. 
Like they're in the right place at the right time and they are the right person to be doing something of significance. 
And even though other people will say it's not going to make any difference, it's, it's, it's a waste of time. 
You do it anyway. 
You do it anyway because it will make a difference. 
You might not even feel it immediately. 
It might take years, decades, maybe even past your lifetime, but I guarantee it's going to matter. 
It's going to mean something. 
And, uh, just being able to, um, to see Kevin come out of prison in January of 2000. 
And literally the day after he was released from prison, we were sued by, by, uh, the motion picture people for, for having the ECSS. 
It was, it was like a TV show that went from one chapter to another. 
So yeah, the synchronicity was, was something to behold. 
You know, I want to, I want to go back to the protests, uh, for a moment. 
Do you, do you remember, I, I guess it was, it might've been 1997, 1998 when we had the, the protest in Manhattan. 
I remember very well. 
And federal court, it was in front of the federal courts. 
So down in, uh, Pearl street, what were, by the way, I was, I was in that building today. 
That's, that's why I'm listeners can't see me, but I'm wearing a suit because I was actually in federal court today where I just about 25 years ago. 
I can't believe it was that long. 
Was it that long? 
It was longer actually. 
Well, no, it was about 25 years ago. 
1998 was 25 years ago. 
Oh my God. 
That's crazy. 
Anyhow, where we were 25 years ago, uh, when I was in college before I was a lawyer. 
And this was a really formative experience for me because, uh, we all came together. 
We had free Kevin banners. 
We were over there. 
People didn't know what the hell we were talking about or what we were doing. 
And we had, uh, flyers that we were handing out about his case that people were actually reading. 
We were, we were making people change their minds. 
Uh, they were on our side, but you remember Emmanuel, the day was hot as hell. 
It was such a hot day. 
Right. 
And we kept, and this, this was something I thought was really just kind of that magical that happened while we were protesting that day was we kept going back and buying drinks from the same hot dog guy that was outside the federal courts. 
That's right. 
Yes. 
And, um, and we, you know, we, we befriended him in a sense. 
And he came to trust me for a little while, uh, with his cart. 
He actually asked me to, to watch over his hot dog cart because he had to run out for a few minutes. 
So I thought, okay, sure. 
I'll, I'll watch a cart. 
And I said, maybe, you know, I'll give the guy a rest. 
He can go and use the bathroom, you know, uh, whatever it has to do. 
But he was gone for a while. 
And remember I was over there at the cart and the protest is going on and there's people coming up to me trying to buy hot dogs and things like that from me. 
And so now I'm just watching the cart, you know, and so many people started coming up to me. 
I wound up starting to sell them drinks so I could figure that out. 
And then ultimately hot dog and then handed the guy money when he came back. 
I had said to him, I said, uh, you know, where, where did you go? 
You were gone for like 20 minutes, a half an hour or something. 
Uh, and he's, he said, well, um, I went to pray, you know, he said, you know, I thought you guys looked trustworthy and I could leave you with my cart. 
And so I took the opportunity that I don't usually have during the day. 
And I went to pray because he was Muslim. 
And I said, oh my God, that's extraordinary. 
Here we are a whole bunch of hackers hanging out and protesting at the federal court. 
And this is the guy, uh, and he trusted us. 
This guy trusted us with his livelihood. 
Uh, I thought it was, I thought there was something magical about that. 
And then we even got some pictures of him with free Kevin stickers and it became the archives. 
Uh, he's, he's forever memorialized as well, but I think it's just emblematic of a lot of the magic that happened around these types of demonstrations, this protest, these things. 
And, and I think you're selling yourself short, Emmanuel. 
I think you, you are in very large part responsible for energizing all this. 
Sure. 
We may have shown up, but you put it together. 
You were the organizer. 
And I think you, you taught us a hell of a lot about what it means to stand up for what you believe in. 
Well, I appreciate that. 
Thank you. 
And, um, we have some, uh, listener response, um, from Stanley who says, I really was not sure where to properly mourn Kevin's passing. 
So I thought, uh, off the hook would be the appropriate place. 
I, uh, first started reading 2600 magazine when I was 10 years old in early 1993, uh, both the magazine and Kevin's hacks, social engineering and later documentaries on his legal case really served as personal inspiration for years. 
By age 13, I was learning about telecommunications hardware and CPU architecture. 
I briefly interned at AOL Time Warner in the early 2000s even, but ultimately decided to work in another profession. 
Wise move, Stanley. 
Uh, this is such a sad day, Kevin. 
You will be missed. 
And you had a tremendous impact on so many lives. 
That's, that's, um, that's certainly true. 
That's certainly true. 
And this is from, uh, from Jerry, uh, dear off the hook, my deepest condolences to you all for the death of your friend, Kevin Mitnick. 
One of my most cherished hope conference memories was attending the screening of Freedom Downtime, uh, from start to finish of the film. 
I was on the edge of my seat. 
Uh, Emmanuel's narration was pitch perfect. 
And to this day, it remains one of my favorite documentaries. 
I don't know about pitch perfect, but thank you for that. 
That's, uh, very, very kind. 
Uh, the New York Times, um, ran a very detailed, um, uh, obituary. 
In fact, they ran an obituary and said at the bottom they were going to run a more complete one. 
I, I didn't really believe them, but they did. 
They actually ran this, this three, four page, um, um, obituary about Kevin's life with, um, many, many details. 
The original, um, uh, mini obituary, I guess you could call it, um, inspired our friend Greg Newby to write a piece to the New York Times. 
I like to read that piece since they didn't print that and, um, and you wouldn't hear it otherwise. 
Um, dear Times, I write in reference to your coverage of the death of Kevin Mitnick. 
Um, the article indicates a complete obituary will follow. 
I strongly encourage the Times to cover its own role in the Kevin Mitnick story. 
To fail to do so would effectively ignore or whitewash how the Times, particularly its longtime journalist, John Markoff, was involved in Kevin's eventual capture and incarceration. 
The story in a nutshell is that without the tenacity of John Markoff and the support of the Times editorial staff, Mitnick would have been far less likely to be subject to the extraordinary pursuit that led to his eventual incarceration. 
The hyperbolic news coverage of the Times, augmented by inflated statements of risk and damages by prosecutors and the businesses Mitnick targeted, elevated the manhunt far beyond what it otherwise would have been. 
Uh, the situation is addressed to some extent in the obituary, uh, which seems to have been written by, uh, friends and colleagues can be found on a website called dignitymemorial.com. 
Uh, it is more thoroughly addressed in Mitnick's 1996 book with Jonathan Littman, uh, The Fugitive Game, uh, the book about Mitnick, that is, uh, The Fugitive Game, uh, compare this to the book Markoff wrote with Tsutomu Shimomura, A Takedown, uh, in reading both books side by side with the Times coverage of the day, it is evident that Mitnick's exploits, though criminal, were neither malicious nor especially impactful. 
After Mitnick was captured, some of the main players in the prosecution, um, or from the companies who were said to have damaged, spoke out for leniency for Mitnick. 
The punishment did not fit the crime. 
The story of the Times's involvement is that it was the Times, not the prosecutor, uh, who targeted companies, uh, or rather targeted companies or law enforcement, uh, that elevated Mitnick to the world's most dangerous hacker. 
It's, in other words, the Times did that. 
A series of articles written by Markoff ensured the pursuit of, of Mitnick continued long after the main events in question. 
In the books and news coverage of Mitnick's capture on February 15th, 1995, including the Times article, we find that Shimomura and Markoff were actually part of the FBI's pursuit operation. 
In fact, if I could just step out of this for a second, um, I later found out that, uh, my phone conversations with Kevin were being listened to by John Markoff and Satomo Shimomura as they were trying to track him down. 
It goes above and beyond what, uh, journalism is when, when you're helping, uh, the FBI in, um, in, in tracking down somebody, but that's exactly what was happening. 
And my conversations were being eavesdropped upon by people who were not law enforcement. 
It was very interesting and documented in both books, both the fugitive game and takedown. 
Uh, you'll, you'll, you'll see that. 
So it was, it was really kind of, um, a bizarre thing to realize that, uh, while we were conversing, they were trying to, um, track them down further. 
And eventually they did the, um, continuing here, the perspective of the times involvement in creating and perpetrating Mitnick's infamy isn't a corner conspiracy theory. 
It has been widely covered by the mainstream media, uh, including, uh, an article in Forbes in, uh, 1999, I believe, uh, with Mitnick's death, the times has an opportunity to revisit how it's important role as a gatekeeper of the news can sometimes result in inflated and hyperbolic coverage of events. 
In Kevin Mitnick's case, coverage by the times helped create a perception of risk from Mitnick's behavior far in excess of reality. 
Thanks for your consideration in this matter. 
Sorry, Greg Newby. 
Greg, uh, I know that they did not print what you wanted them to print, but I'm glad you wrote that. 
I'm glad we got to, um, to share that with people and, um, the truth needs to be told. 
Yeah, I think that's a really, um, a very strong, um, uh, uh, I guess notion that, uh, journalists everywhere ought to heed, especially when, um, cultivating sources because, uh, that behavior, it, it, um, it is a form of temptation that I think compromises the integrity that, um, that sources trusting you would, would expect. 
And, uh, of course, also, um, doing the bidding of, of what, uh, is in, is ultimately in the sense, in the, uh, in the interests of, uh, big business that isn't necessarily, I mean, that may serve their interests, but isn't, uh, uh, uh, serving the, the kind of, uh, reporting that needs to be done in that situation. 
Um, you're sort of taking sides and, and then going on a mission for, for what that interest may want. 
Um, you may feel like a hero in that process, but you're not really, uh, doing heroic journalism. 
So. 
Certainly, certainly true there. 
Um, yeah, I just want to tell, um, one other story that isn't really, uh, remembered all that much, but it's, um, it's, it's, it's kind of fascinating because, um, it's, it's how we found out that, um, Kevin was on the run in the first place. 
Um, a bunch of us were at a, um, a conference, uh, in Chicago. 
Uh, this was in March of 1994. 
Uh, I think, I think, um, yeah, March, late March of 1994, uh, it was called CFP computers, freedom and privacy. 
Uh, it would take place in different cities, uh, throughout the country, uh, year after year, good conference. 
And, uh, it was one of these conferences where you got to talk to people from law enforcement. 
And I remember there was this guy from the FBI. 
I think his name was Jim settle. 
Um, he was the FBI guy that was basically on panels and, and kind of sharing his perspective. 
In the middle of the night, on one of the nights that we were all out there, three people got arrested or detained or basically questioned aggressively. 
Robert Steele was one of them. 
The late Robert Steele, who was our first keynote speaker, um, two other people, two other young people were also, um, arrested or detained or questioned. 
Um, it turned out this had to do with the hunt for Kevin Mitnick. 
And, and it's, it's a reminder to those of you out there, the FBI is always on duty. 
You know, they may, they may pretend to be on a panel at a conference, but they're watching and they're acting. 
And that's exactly what happened at this conference, except they messed it up so badly. 
It was comical. 
There, there is a radio show. 
We, we did a radio show, uh, look it up on, on, uh, 2600.com where we keep all our radio shows. 
Um, and, uh, the end of March, 1994, you will find, um, I think we talked to everybody who was involved, um, who had been questioned. 
That is, um, Robert Steele was, was a question because his last name was Steele and they were looking for a hacker known as Agent Steele. 
It was spelled differently. 
S-T-E-A-L, not S-T-E-E-L-E. 
But the FBI thought maybe there was a connection there. 
So they basically talked to this guy. 
They talked to another guy who resembled, um, Agent Steele's name was, uh, Justin Peterson, um, who was also passed away. 
Uh, and then they talked to a third person who resembled physically Kevin Mitnick had nothing to do with Kevin Mitnick, but just looked a little bit like him and that was enough. 
Yeah. 
And so that's how we found out that Kevin was in fact being sought by the FBI. 
They really blew it. 
They really made, uh, made a mess out of the whole thing. 
And, uh, it was, it was very embarrassing, uh, resulted in a lot of distrust and bad feelings, but, uh, one hell of a story that we should not forget. 
Um, another, um, excerpt that I'd like to, um, uh, go back to, uh, this is a, this is the day that Kevin Mitnick was captured in Raleigh, North Carolina. 
And what's interesting is that, um, we were doing a show on, uh, Wednesday, February 15th, 1995, and we had the story before anybody else had the story. 
I had been talking to Kevin. 
I didn't know where he was, didn't want to know where he was, but I had found out that he had been, um, captured very early that morning. 
Um, as the radio show was airing, the New York times was being printed and had come out by the time we were off the air. 
And it was, it was front page news again. 
And that's part of the whole thing. 
The fact that it was front page news throughout. 
That's why, uh, Kevin Mitnick was always, um, um, somebody that the FBI and authorities were so keen on capturing because, well, when it's on the front page and, and, and you're not finding the guy, you look bad. 
So they, they redoubled all their efforts. 
Uh, let's just listen to the first, uh, five minutes of that show, February 15th, 1995 off the hook. 
And a good evening, everybody. 
Uh, this is off the hook, the program that, um, deals with the, uh, dreaded term of cyberspace and all kinds of other, uh, fun things going on on the net, uh, community, the telephone world, the hacker world, the big brother Orwellian future that lies ahead for all of us. 
And tonight we have some rather sad news, uh, in the world of cyberspace, as it were, in the world of hackers. 
Um, this is something that has not yet gone out over the wires because I don't think the wires know about it yet. 
But, uh, after tonight they will. 
Early this morning, Kevin Mitnick was apprehended. 
Kevin Mitnick being the hacker who was on the run for at least a year. 
Uh, and this, uh, happened, um, as a result, starting with a, uh, parole violation, uh, probation violation, uh, last year. 
If you recall, we had a show focusing on, um, on what happened in Chicago at a convention called Computers, Freedom, and Privacy, where the Federal Bureau of Investigation investigated three wrong people, including a former CIA operative, thinking that they were on the trail of, uh, both Kevin Mitnick and Agent Steele, Justin Peterson, uh, who was someone working for the FBI at one point who was trying to entrap hackers and then went on the run himself and was committing all kinds of crimes. 
They caught up with Agent Steele not too long after that, but Kevin Mitnick always remained one step ahead, sometimes two steps ahead, up until this morning when he was apprehended in, from what I hear, North Carolina, our favorite state. 
And, uh, that's really all we know right now. 
We know this happened at about, uh, I think three in the morning our time. 
And, what's funny about all this is that I just talked to him only a couple of days ago. 
Actually, I was talking to him fairly recently before, before he actually got, uh, apprehended. 
And, uh, it's, uh, it's kind of a sad thing when you're talking to somebody that's on the run like that because, you know, there are so many things that they want to do that they just can't do. 
Uh, they can't hang out publicly, they can't, uh, go to meetings or see anybody that they might be expected to see. 
They pretty much have to live a rented car, motel, fast food life, and that's sort of what Kevin was doing. 
I never asked him where he was. 
I didn't want to know. 
I only hoped, deep down within me, that, uh, he had left the country. 
Obviously, he didn't. 
I know a few weeks ago, uh, a couple of weeks ago, there was a very close call in Seattle where he almost got picked up, and I think, uh, he somehow found out about it a half hour afterwards. 
He basically missed them by about a half hour, and they were very frustrated by that. 
And one thing I tried to, uh, I tried to tell Kevin was that these people are very, very good at what they do. 
You have to keep that in mind. 
Somehow, they're able to find people. 
If they grow facial hair or get a nose job or something, if you get your picture in the paper on America's Most Wanted, they somehow figure out that it's you anyway. 
You know? 
When's the last time you heard of the FBI not finding somebody? 
Well, there was Abbie Hoffman, of course, but I think he was the only person that was able to do it and pull it off successfully. 
Everybody, especially today, with cameras all over the place. 
You know? 
You never know when you're being looked at. 
Actually, you never know when you're not being looked at these days, because most of the time, you're being looked at somewhere. 
And that's the kind of world that Kevin Mitnick had to live in and not be recognized. 
It could only last for so long. 
I think we all knew it was going to end at some point, and I had this gut feeling that it was going to be soon, because it just seemed like things were reaching a crescendo. 
And when you're on the run for so long, you kind of get sloppy after a while. 
You kind of don't think to cover your trail quite as neatly. 
And I was worried that he was calling and that I was talking to him. 
You know, if my phone was tapped, maybe they could do a trace. 
If he was talking to me, maybe he was talking to other people. 
It was rather sad to think of it in that way. 
Now, you might ask, well, this guy's a criminal. 
You know, how can you talk to someone like that? 
How can you harbor a fugitive? 
Well, of course, that's nonsense. 
Kevin is as much a criminal as any of us, I think. 
Basically, his crime is knowledge. 
And I think that's something that really, really frightens people. 
And it certainly frightens governments, agencies, people in power. 
Because here's a guy that can do virtually anything on a network involving computers, involving the phone system. 
Admittedly, he's very good at what he does. 
Admittedly, he's very good at getting information. 
And that makes people in high places very, very nervous. 
No question about that. 
But is the guy, a criminal, worthy of being locked up? 
I don't think so. 
And when you think of what is in store for him, you really, really have to wonder if playing by the rules makes any sense at all these days. 
From the Off the Hook archives, February 15, 1995, the day that Kevin Mitnick was captured in Raleigh, North Carolina. 
And those moments where we told the world about that. 
And, yeah, you know, you kind of realize why somebody would run for so long and be determined not to be captured because of what happened to him after that, of the years that were taken from him because of that. 
And maybe we can understand why people run when the cops say stop, you know, or why people don't just give themselves up and assume that they're going to get a fair trial when it's obvious they won't. 
There are so many instances of that that we have seen that we continue to see. 
And Kevin lived that life. 
We only have a couple of minutes left. 
I want to invite people to join us on Overtime at 8 o'clock, which will be on our YouTube channel, which is Channel 2600. 
It's one word, Channel 2600. 
Or you can just click on the link on the 2600.com webpage up there on the top. 
I'd like to open it up to Rob, Alex, Kyle, if you have any closing thoughts on Kevin. 
We have about two minutes. 
He was very young. 
It's devastating to lose him so young. 
And, yeah, the best we can do is remember him and remember him well. 
And I think he's going to live on in a lot of us. 
And I think all of us that have met him have had the benefit of his friendship, of his tutelage, and his memory. 
I think his memory will serve, I hope, as a comfort and a blessing to so many of us in the community for a very, very long time to come. 
This is a guy who started in very, very humble origins in California. 
And despite, you know, maybe some questionable activities here and there, I mean, he changed the world with his life. 
He changed our attitudes. 
And he made an impact on this world that I think is, you know, larger than the size of the crater of the Grand Canyon. 
He led an extraordinary life. 
It was cut short by cancer, pancreatic cancer, something that's so unforgiving and so unrelenting. 
But I think he'll be with us in many, many ways for many, many years to come. 
And I think we need to celebrate his life, his perseverance, and his philosophy as well as being a prankster, being a jokester, being somebody who memorizes bus tables, figures things out, shares the information with the community. 
He embodies the true spirit of the hacker in so many ways. 
He'll be missed. 
I just want to thank everyone who has shared and is keeping his memory alive with their recounting and tell other people, tell what you recall in your interactions, if you had some directly or sharing his story. 
But I just want to thank Kevin, you know, for being who he was, for standing up for himself and just sharing what he knew and sharing his time with us and really giving back as much as he could to the community. 
And I share the sentiment. 
I wish he had been able to age and be with us much longer. 
He deserved that for having so much time taken from him, in our view, unjustly. 
But we'll keep his memory alive and we'll share some more, I think, as the days and weeks go on. 
As if this story couldn't get any sadder, word is out that he was going to be a father, a child he will never meet. 
But Kevin will live on in that way. 
And that's something. 
All right, we will see you on YouTube at 8 o'clock for overtime. 
   And, welcome to everybody here on YouTube. 
Hello. 
You're holding the microphone in your hand, Kyle. 
I forgot to move it. 
Okay, well just put it down. 
Put it down. 
It's going to be loud, though. 
That's what people like to hear. 
Go ahead, put it down. 
Gently? 
No, hard. 
There you go. 
Rob, did you make it? 
I made it. 
Okay, and Alex, it looks like you're here as well. 
Yeah, I'm here. 
I like the suit, by the way. 
I think you should dress up every week. 
Yeah, I tend to agree. 
I just feel like I take the show much more seriously. 
When I think it's appropriate. 
We've been looking for ways to make you do that, and this seems to be a good step, at least. 
So, there's that. 
Well, you know what? 
Let's just give out the phone number right away, so that if people have anything they want to ask you, we can get it. 
Okay. 
All right. 
So, we're back. 
Let's give out the phone number right away, so that if people have anything they wished to share about Kevin, and we don't have to just talk about that. 
We can talk about other things as well. 
802-321-4225 is our phone number. 
802-321-HACK. 
It's been a while since we've done this, and by the way, we're not doing the chat tonight because we're down a staff member, and it takes all of us, all of our combined mental abilities, to be able to field all of the comments that are coming our way to sure that they're acceptable for our audience and all that. 
Yeah, so difficult show, knew it would be. 
Yeah, it's, I, you know, it's, I'm still processing, I'm still processing that, that Kevin's gone. 
And it's going to take a while, you know, but this is part of living. 
Part of living is dealing with loss. 
And I don't know if I'm gonna get any better at it. 
But it's something we're all going through together. 
So nobody out there should feel like they were alone. 
Rob, go ahead. 
Yeah. 
And as I as I said, on our radio hour, there have been so many reminiscences shared with us. 
We'd like to hear more. 
So give us a call. 
But while we're waiting for calls, I'd like to read one or two things that came in on Mastodon over the past week, when we posted the news. 
Margaret posts, shocked and saddened to hear of Kevin's passing. 
I was on the editorial team that published his first book, The Art of Deception, which gave invaluable insights into the human aspects of tech security. 
Yeah, Code Ripper says I'm rewatching Freedom Downtime this morning. 
F cancer. 
You quite agree. 
Yeah, yeah, it's, I can't even imagine the hell that he was going through over the past year, you know, because as we mentioned, pancreatic cancer is so unforgiving and and so relentless and so hard to even detect. 
And it's just it's so humbling to realize that, you know, on this planet, there was nobody that could help him. 
That's where we are in our development as as as human race. 
One day that will change. 
I have no doubt. 
But right now, yeah, it's it's a terrible thing. 
It's a terrible thing. 
And I just I hope he found peace during that that horrible ordeal as if he hadn't been through enough horrible ordeals. 
We have a call Kyle. 
Okay, let's no, that's not something we want. 
It's a regular caller. 
It's a regular call. 
What do you mean by that? 
The fast busy? 
Oh, the off hook Tom. 
Yes. 
The phone line will be open for a couple more minutes. 
It's open now. 
802-321-4225. 
Yeah, that's an anticipation of a call. 
Please feel free to join our conversation. 
Otherwise, you can always write us oth at 2600.com. 
Yeah, we had him on the show a number of times and it was it was always so much fun taking calls from from listeners then and just giving him, you know, a platform a way to reach out to people that that first talk at hope, you know in 2004. 
That was a big deal because remember 1994. 
He was on the run, you know, in fact, I remember we were talking to him on on on wall phones at the hotel Hotel Pennsylvania. 
We didn't know where he was but he was phoning in to see how the conference was going again. 
It was the first big conference in the United States. 
It was inspired by the Dutch conferences. 
Then in 1997, he had been caught but he was in prison. 
So obviously he couldn't come to the to the conference then. 
In 2000, H2K, he was out but he was on supervised release for three years, which also kept him from attending in 2002 at H2K2. 
But the Fifth Hope in 2004 was the period where supervised release ended and yeah, he was he showed up and that I believe is the first time he ever actually started talking about his life what he was going through not just security talks and things like that, which he excelled at and did such an amazing job and help so many people and companies and institutions throughout the world. 
It became his mission and people really started to realize this guy has talent. 
This guy knows something this guy should never have been locked away. 
Go ahead, Rob. 
And you mentioned 2000 where he couldn't be at the conference. 
He wasn't allowed to associate with his computer friends, but that was the year that Freedom Downtime premiered at the conference or at least an earlier cut of it. 
And at the end there was a recorded message from Kevin, which I think is his first like intentional legal appearance at a Hope conference and I remember and I'm sure you remember the round of applause that that got when he popped up on the screen. 
Yeah, absolutely. 
That was that was that was something that was an incredible time. 
It really was we have a phone call Kyle. 
Yes. 
Okay, and good evening. 
You're on off the hook overtime. 
Go ahead. 
Yes, Emmanuel. 
Yes. 
How old was Kevin? 
I'm just curious. 
He was hearing about he was 59. 
59. 
Oh, wow. 
Okay. 
I'm way older than me. 
Okay. 
Well, I'm sorry that that happened. 
Yeah. 
No, first what it was who was the gym and then yeah, it's been it's been a rough year. 
It really has been had you had you met Kevin any of the conferences? 
I think I did. 
I know how H2K for I hope 2004. 
I think I did make you meet him. 
Yeah, that's the one we that's the one we played the excerpt from just earlier. 
Right? 
Yeah, I met him there. 
I don't know if I met him. 
Oh, well, I don't remember but I might have I mean, I did go to the talk but I mean, look, he probably would have met you at some point. 
We wouldn't have been able to stop him. 
So not that we would have tried but I'm just saying he was very personable and and reached out to everybody and would listen to everybody. 
It didn't matter if you were 12 or 80, he would listen to you. 
I hope you don't go. 
Well, thank you. 
That's the nicest thing you've ever said. 
But yeah, fingers crossed. 
Rebel were you were you at the 2600 meeting in I think it was March of 2000 when Kevin was out of prison and he was able to go to the New York City 2600 meeting March of when was it was it 2000 or would it have been later? 
I think he would have been allowed to go in 2000. 
But when whenever it was it was his first 2600 meeting and he wrote about it later for the magazine and he he showed up and I don't think he was sure what to expect but people like recognized him and started speaking with him and at one point they made the shift to asking him for autographs but which I don't think he was quite prepared for but he he that was the first time I met him in person and I think you might have been there Rebel and and he was he was very he was very engaging and great to talk with even then. 
And I'm curious when that was. 
Go ahead Rebel. 
Yeah. 
You haven't been around. 
You've been traveling again since I was at the meeting and you said you were traveling again. 
Who said I was traveling again? 
Why was I was in Alaska? 
Yeah, I actually haven't been on the radio since June. 
So yeah, I guess I guess they were telling the truth. 
Well, could we have it? 
You haven't had a show since when I the last time I called him was when I was in Russia when I was in St. 
Petersburg. 
I remember when I was in. 
In Petersburg, they have, you know National Guard. 
Well, I guess their version of National Guard people at the airport and at the train stations, you know, and you know, I get to go to the main transit hub. 
They have like National Guard like looking people with orange people who look, you know, at the subway the not the subway station, but the railway still like like the main railway stations and at the airports and things like that. 
Well, it must have been a fun experience going going over there again a second time. 
Yeah. 
So is there anything else you want to share with us? 
Well, I wanted to mention I wanted to demonstrate the wood. 
Go out 1-800 go FedEx because I was trying to order something or let me see if the status of an order actually changed because I ordered something online, which I don't like doing but sometimes you have to when you have you know, when they can't get something in the store and they got the wrong address and they said we will deliver the package you will try it and there was no address or whatever. 
No address or it was incorrect or whatever. 
The sender said said this the people I thought of them. 
So I was trying to call FedEx and let me demonstrate what happens when you don't, you know, do send it. 
They don't even connect to anymore. 
Uh-huh. 
Like a representative. 
Well, you're just going to connect us to a recording, right? 
I mean, we're just going to be as frustrated as you've been. 
Right. 
What you want to hold and I'll demonstrate it but it's voice-activated. 
So I'm going to put myself on mute and you shouldn't talk. 
Okay, so we'll shut up. 
And we'll just let you run things for a for a moment. 
Okay, I'll just you put yourself on me. 
Hold on. 
Okay. 
Can you refill my class? 
Welcome to FedEx. 
This call may be monitored or recorded for quality assurance. 
We have new enhanced mobile features. 
You can conveniently access from your phone. 
Are you calling from a cell phone? 
Last time you called about a shipment with a tracking number ending in 5496. 
Did you want to check on that shipment? 
If you're calling to get information about the tracking number ending in 5496 say yes or press one. 
Otherwise say no or press two. 
Yes. 
Okay. 
I'm with FedEx ground shipment. 
I'm sorry. 
Go ahead. 
Sorry. 
I still didn't understand. 
No, it's my fault. 
That's all you need. 
No, please tell me about the tracking. 
Give me all the information. 
Sorry, I'm having so much trouble. 
Unfortunately, that's all the information we can provide at this time. 
Didn't tell me anything. 
Manage your delivery. 
No, please visit FedEx.com. 
Where is it being delivered? 
Don't tell me. 
Please. 
No, don't hang up. 
Please don't go. 
Oh, you see, I mean, if you don't have buttons on your telephone, like, you know, I feel so rejected. 
Wow. 
She was going to drop your docs, though. 
She was going to tell me all kinds of information as to where that package was going and the full tracking number, maybe. 
Well, I just went out over the air. 
It sure did. 
Yes, people already filling in the numbers. 
Well, let's see. 
Well, I don't say anything that hangs up. 
It says, you know. 
Well, let me demonstrate it when you don't actually know. 
I think I think you demonstrated it just fine. 
You know, I think we get the idea. 
Yeah, and when you call them in the Philippines, okay, that's also good to know. 
Rebel, anything else going to try and take some more calls? 
No, I guess that's it. 
Okay. 
I hope nobody hacks my package. 
Now. 
It's only a gaming chair. 
Well, now you've told us what it is and you've given us the last few digits. 
And you know, it's interesting that they remember that you called before about that particular item. 
Well, because of my phone number. 
That's why. 
Yeah, I didn't know they did that. 
Now I know that. 
Yeah. 
So maybe mask that next time when you're calling a radio station. 
All right. 
Rebel, good hearing from you again. 
It's an 800 number. 
It's an 800 number. 
Yes, it's an 800. 
They get your phone number very easily. 
Yeah. 
I hope you get your chair. 
Yeah, I hope it all works out well. 
Yeah, it's about to come Monday. 
Excuse me. 
Yeah, I take care of that first. 
It's about to come Monday. 
It's coming from California. 
Wow. 
Hope we didn't give him COVID. 
You know, we caught COVID on the way back. 
And it's the kind that goes through telephone lines. 
The kind. 
Yeah, there is a kind that does that. 
Why not? 
People will believe anything, right? 
People will believe whatever you say these days. 
So why not? 
Yeah, it's COVID that goes through the telephone lines. 
All right, Rebel, stay healthy, all right? 
And we hope to see you at the forthcoming hope, whatever it's called, next year. 
Yeah, whenever it is. 
It'll be next year. 
It'll be next year. 
We promise. 
Oh, next year. 
All right. 
Okay, and I hope to see you at the 2600 meeting in August. 
You might. 
You just might. 
Thank you for calling and thanks for that wonderful wish of me staying alive. 
That's all that close to me. 
Yeah. 
All right. 
Be well. 
Okay. 
Bye. 
And Rob, you'll be pleased to know that I did some research. 
In fact, I did some research on our own website on the OffTheHookArchives2600.com and I found out that Kevin, in fact, did attend the March 2000 meeting. 
I'll tell you exactly how it played out. 
A Court TV appearance allows Kevin to be in New York and attend the 2600 meeting there. 
That is how it happened. 
Yes, I was looking at the date stamp on the photo that I have from the day of a friend of mine getting something signed. 
So yes, it was an interesting day because so many of us had been rallying for so long around the cause of Kevin. 
And I think for very many people, this was the first time that he was an actual human being standing in front of them. 
Yeah, I remember that. 
I remember that, you know, in Citigroup, maybe it was called Citicorp back then, basically, yeah, there he was, not making a big deal of being there. 
But people just came up to him saying, oh, you're Kevin and that's it, you know, not freaking out or, you know, getting all like, you know, crazy that there's a celebrity amongst their midst. 
Just basically saying, oh, it's good to meet you, you know, and that's all he wanted. 
That's all he wanted was to be included, was to be part of a community and this community really opened up to him. 
It really did, especially after the nightmare was ebbing a bit. 
So absolutely, and you know, he never asked for the path that brought him into such prominence in our community, but I think he was able to use it well and deal with it well and, you know, remain a contributing and lively part of the hacker community for the decades after. 
All right. 
We have another phone call. 
Okay, good evening. 
You are on off the hook overtime. 
Go ahead. 
Yeah. 
Hi, thanks very much for the past hour. 
That was a great tribute you gave to Kevin. 
I know that he took part in at least one social engineering panel, I believe, at Hope and as well as that keynote that you played before. 
So besides those two, did he have any other appearances at the Hope conferences or was it just those two? 
Oh gosh, you're testing my memory. 
I mean, I'm sure he was there for a few. 
I'm not sure if he spoke at all of them. 
I would say at least two or three, at least. 
Yeah. 
Well, I'll look through YouTube. 
But what was special about 2004 though, 2004, the Fifth Hope, was basically his mom and his grandmother came with him and it was just, it was such a joyous occasion them being in New York City and him not being in prison. 
Of course, they were horrified by the rooms in Hotel Penn, but you know, they got over that. 
They said, you know what? 
It's okay. 
This is a special occasion and we're all just going to get through the weekend and we all did. 
We had a great time and it was just so nice seeing everybody together and I just wish there could have been more days like that. 
Well, when I saw on the internet that he passed away, I rewatched Freedom Downtime and it still holds up. 
I mean, I love it as much just seeing it as I saw when I saw it the first time and when I saw it at Hope, my first reaction was, I hope you guys will just replay it. 
I wanted to see it all over again as soon as it ended. 
It was that great. 
So thanks so much for making that film. 
Thank you for that. 
Thank you for the support. 
That means a lot to us. 
And I hope you'll consider making another documentary if some issue moves you as much because you really did a phenomenal job on that film. 
Well, we broke all the rules. 
I'll tell you that. 
So I'm not sure I can I can get away with it again, but I don't know who knows. 
I certainly are a lot of issues. 
It's a question of which one do you pick? 
There's just so much out there. 
But again, you know back then there was no YouTube. 
There weren't smartphones. 
Now so many people can do what we did and probably do a better job. 
So I hope that people take advantage of the technology that's at their fingertips. 
Yeah, the means of producing are that much cheaper to edit to do all that stuff as was done with Freedom Downtime, including distribution. 
I think there's still half a pallet of VHS tapes somewhere that we're trying to find a home for, you know, recycling VHS tapes is a really tricky business. 
Oh my God, it's basically have to incinerate it. 
But long story long. 
Thank you for the acknowledgement and we are still walking around with cameras so to speak ourselves. 
So with any luck, maybe we will have some more filmmaking in the future. 
Please encourage us. 
Well, thank you for the great tribute and I will I will definitely check out his previous talks on YouTube. 
So great. 
Thanks. 
Thanks for paying tribute to him. 
He'll definitely be missed and rest in peace Kevin and thank you guys for doing such a great job. 
Thank you very much. 
Night. 
Take care. 
Bye. 
What a nice call. 
That was great. 
I think that personifies pretty much what the community has been feeling in the past week or so. 
He really did maintain a presence. 
He would he would travel a lot. 
I know he did come as you were reaching for he was at least in a personal capacity. 
He would attend every now and then and of course other events and conferences around the country and the world and he was able to rebuild a consulting career and help people as you said, he traveled all over the place met and and continued on the persevered sharing his knowledge and doing it for hire to and being able to sustain himself in that way and and to great benefit. 
I think of a lot of organizations and we were anybody who was able to see him or catch up with him or hear about his latest Ventures. 
I think was better for it and we were really really lucky to have him after so much for the even short period that we did you want to hear something crazy Kevin actually helped us today. 
It's weird because you know, I was I was looking for that clip on our one of our Hope websites and this is something we don't really publicize but a lot of people are figured out already. 
We assign a Roman numeral to each conference and we used to have a different a different domain. 
In other words, we had h2k.net. 
We might still have that h2k2.net every conference had a different website or different domain that we would have to register and you know, it's great when you have two or three conferences, but when when they getting over over a dozen, there's a lot of domains you have to keep renewing and eventually ask yourself the question. 
Why don't we just have it all done locally and we simply make you know, the fourth conference be IV.hope.net and you know, etc. 
So the fifth the fifth hope.net I believe is either for help.net or the fifth hope.org. 
The fact that I can't remember it is it's one of the reasons why I figured it was time to just let it expire and that's what we did. 
We let it expire and we we rerouted everything to go locally except for some reason. 
We didn't do that. 
We didn't do it the way we were supposed to do it and while looking for Kevin's talk today. 
I was trying to go to v.hope.net for the fifth hope and it went somewhere else because somebody else grabbed the fifth hope.net or.org and I thought we had some kind of you know intrusion or something and I was I was a little concerned then I realized no we just hadn't done that yet. 
We hadn't made sure that everything rerouted locally, but had I not been looking for Kevin's talk who knows how long that would have been there for so and that was the only one two of all the conferences. 
That was the only one that was misconfigured. 
Hey, that's actually pretty good. 
Yeah, well, but but also should never have happened. 
That's true. 
We'll we'll get I just get after I ever was responsible for similar to how Kevin was blamed for everything that went wrong. 
I hope he gets credit for everything goes right in the in the future because he certainly deserves that and like that something else, you know that we we had a machine that we named after his grandmother years ago called Reba. 
She was just such an incredible woman. 
She was so inspirational and personified everything that that we were talking about that he was going through. 
I just think a great tribute would be if you have the ability to name a machine name it Kevin or name it Mitnick or name it something like that just KDM. 
He was known as that it's just a good tribute to have have something named after especially if it gets routed in emails and things like that and you see it pop up everywhere. 
I didn't think you were going to mention the machine name just generally but that's the kind of thing that we did a Reba's with no powerful machine. 
We ever worked with to by the way. 
Well, it's it's also still vital in some ways like 20 hard drive. 
It was just it was amazing. 
It was a workhorse. 
It does it does a lot to this day still in many ways. 
I didn't know we still had it. 
Okay. 
No, no it it is still involved in in the production and we use it all the time. 
So those kinds of little things though are just for us like who would get that it would be something that you would mention to him or that, you know, when his grandmother is grandmother, right? 
I'm now I'm now blanking. 
Yeah, when she passed it was like immediate. 
We were in the middle of building that the first time it was built been rebuilt a couple times had to be named that absolutely in a new whatever. 
We changed all kinds of things and closures all that but the the every time it's it stayed and it's the kind of thing only he would get or that we would that we would remind ourselves and that anybody else saying oh we name this certain machine or they wouldn't really know why you have to explain the whole thing, but it was so intimate and it made so much sense to us at the time that he would have immediately understood the importance to us and and that it was in her honor and in respect for his impact on on what we do. 
So do that. 
Yes, please honor name a machine name name a domain or a project whatever you can find ways to at least for yourselves to carry that on to to remember and to just give give some little corner of your infrastructure to the memory of someone so so powerful and just know that he would laugh at that. 
He would approve most definitely. 
Okay, do we have any other phone calls? 
Yes, we do. 
I'm sorry. 
Someone's been on hold all that time. 
They're patiently waiting. 
I'm so sorry. 
Good evening. 
You're on off the hook overtime. 
Go ahead. 
Hello, you there? 
I think I might fall asleep. 
Is anybody there? 
Caller caller. 
Are you there? 
Yeah, sure. 
There you are. 
Okay, wait, wait calling from New York, New York. 
I've heard of it. 
No. 
Is that is that funny Alex? 
You just tie up a phone line and you're there on the screen as well. 
Callers, please know that the phone lines are open. 
Yeah. 
Yeah, I wasn't even on the phone line. 
I was just speaking at probably you can't tell it. 
So you're not on the phone. 
No, I'm not as angry, but somebody is on the phone. 
Okay, so is anybody where I hear noises everybody else, please be quiet. 
Is anyone there? 
Yes. 
No, no, it's me. 
Yeah. 
All right, Alex disconnected. 
Turn cut his mic off. 
I want his mic cut. 
All right, so we're going to have to start over 802-321-4225. 
Apologies to the caller who might have been trying to speak, but we couldn't hear them. 
All right, 802-321-4225. 
Those kind of shenanigans. 
Yeah, that's exactly kind of thing Kevin would have done. 
I know. 
Yeah, well, now we know there's a weak spot here, right? 
So with your headphones, you can't tell it's there's no different channel or sound for the you just figure that out now that you that the board is we can't tell what channel is being used for input. 
Yeah. 
How would you tell that? 
You need video for that. 
No idea. 
Yeah, but I guess it all just sounds the same to you. 
So we'll be that as it may we have another call. 
Yeah. 
All right. 
And good evening. 
You're on off the go time. 
Good evening. 
How you doing? 
Where you coming from? 
London England. 
Oh, is this zap? 
Yeah, it's me. 
It's you know, it's it's it's a little sad that we know if it's calling if you have to call from London, it's that because nobody else in London would call us, but we're glad that you're on the phone. 
Well, it is 113 in the morning. 
Most people are working tomorrow. 
Well, yeah, some people are working now. 
They could call us in the middle of their their work day. 
Yeah, true. 
I'm finding out because of Kevin. 
Of course. 
Yes. 
Yeah, sad times. 
It's really it. 
Everyone else plays really bad. 
He was, you know, quite a force in the hacking community, but I just want to recall one of the memories or a couple of memories. 
I have of Kevin first time. 
I spoke to Kevin was in 1997 when he was in prison and I think you were the one that passed me your cellular phone and he was asking some questions because Tom had said some things to him and gave him a lot of promises, which unfortunately Tom being the person he was those promises were not going to happen. 
And that was the first time I spoke to Kevin inside the tell him the truth and laid down on the line that Tom wasn't going to deliver what he'd promised. 
So that's one of the memories I have. 
Yeah, 1997. 
Well, you said more than just that. 
I hope. 
Well, I spoke to Kevin, but it is difficult when he's signing from prison because he's going to be on a limited time and it's just a matter of getting the information you wanted. 
It wasn't really a social call. 
It's more like a business called trying to give him the help that I could give him. 
But there's some memories that come with that. 
I mean, I remember with demonstrations all around the world when we were demonstrating outside the American embassies. 
And I think, you know, there's one in Russia that I remember there was one in London, but I organized so we had representation in London. 
Yeah, it's just a bit of a shock. 
But you're saying about naming computers. 
I don't think anyone's mentioned. 
He's one of these handles. 
I think was Condor. 
That's right. 
Condor was is it was from from the movie, right? 
Yeah. 
Yep. 
Yep. 
Three days of the Condor three days of the Condor Robert Redford. 
I believe there's actually a little scene in there with the telephones that I could I can understand what Kevin chose that as a handle. 
It's pretty good movie. 
It's one of my favorites. 
It's a great movie. 
I think I saw Kevin finally. 
I never saw him at hope. 
I've been to about two and a half hopes in England. 
He was actually a keynote speaker for one of the shows that I went to trade show and I finally got to speak to Kevin and met him and I remind him about the phone call. 
He didn't remember and he did say it was like 20 years ago. 
So yeah, that was so I did actually meet the guy. 
So I was quite happy about that. 
I'm glad you got my 26. 
I was gonna say wearing my 2600 hat that I always wear when I go to these trade shows. 
In fact, that's how I met Alex the lawyer. 
I've done a few recalls. 
That's right. 
Yeah, I of course I do that was at the it was like the information security kind of InfoSec conference Europe might have been at the Olympia or something was at some giant Convention Center wasn't I can't I think it was at the Excel Center. 
I'm not too sure all the shows sort of running to one another. 
I can't remember. 
It was like the Expo. 
I think yeah, I've been IPXO in October, but I remember you said cool hat and that's right about 2600 and that's what I said. 
There's one in London. 
There's a meeting in London and he was like, how did I not know this and then he started turning up while you were over here. 
Yeah, that's that's exactly right. 
That is exactly right. 
I think this is actually the kind of stuff that I talk about in the latest issue, isn't it in my article? 
So yeah, you should pick it up and read it. 
So it's pretty funny. 
Okay, I'll try and look out for that when the issue comes through. 
That's that's all the memories. 
I've got really of Kevin. 
Can't really think of I mean, it was very limited because being in the UK. 
I was just lucky to meet him when he came over. 
It's a shame that he died so young and to be an expectant father as well. 
I believe he's got a son on the way. 
So it's like difficult. 
Is it a son that do they know if it's a son or a daughter? 
I didn't know that. 
I believe I believe I read it on Twitter, but don't hold me today. 
Are you got a 5050 chance? 
I believe he's expecting a son which you'll never meet which is a shame. 
I know it's just it's it's such such a tragedy on that that level alone, but also there's there's something happy about that too because a part of Kevin will live on. 
Yeah, the legacy will go on. 
I'm thinking about the first time I heard of Kevin. 
I think was in that terrible book called cyberpunk. 
Cyberpunk. 
Yes, which John Markoff was also involved in and and and his ex-wife Katie Hefner. 
Yeah, I think that's the first time I read about Kevin Mitnick and his antics when he was younger didn't put a very good light on it and heard more things through 2600 the magazine which is better. 
I actually watched freedom downtime again. 
I think that's something you have to do is just watch freedom downtime. 
If you haven't seen it already go find it on on YouTube or something. 
Yeah, but yeah, I think at the next meeting which will be the August meeting now will I think we get the group the guys and the girls to raise a glass to Kevin as we always do on one of us has fallen. 
That's that's very good sentiment. 
I do appreciate that. 
I'm very inspired by that. 
Yeah, I see any you guys going to Defcon. 
I am not because I've got all kinds of work to do. 
I went to Alaska and that took a lot out of me. 
But Alex your finger is raised. 
So I guess that means yeah, I'll be going to Defcon. 
I'll be there for a couple of days. 
Are you are you heading over that way though? 
No, I've never been to Defcon which surprises a lot of people because I've been in this game for many and many a year. 
I try to stay loyal go to hope and I've only been to like I think two and a half or three and a half. 
How do you go to a half? 
How do you like? 
How do you go to a half? 
It's a virtual hope. 
Okay, virtual. 
Okay, I classified as a half, you know, I haven't been back since about 2000. 
Unfortunately, I'm due back at some point if I ever get a passport, but yeah, I should sort of go along to one of these Defcon. 
So it's on my bucket list. 
So hopefully I'll go one day. 
Yeah, you should do it before Las Vegas melts completely because was 120 degrees now. 
It's insane. 
I know I actually saw something on your own use yesterday. 
I thought I misheard. 
I thought they said that the planet is hotter than it's been in 120 years. 
No, they said in a hundred and twenty thousand years that the planet is hotter than it has ever been throughout all of humankind. 
Think about that. 
I mean, I just I can't even wrap my head around that. 
Yeah, it's crazy. 
And it's our fault too. 
If I didn't make that clear, it's our fault. 
So it's, you know, we're messing the whole place up. 
And if people are standing in the way and saying, oh, you know what? 
I'm not going to do anything and climate change be damned treat them as if they're condemning the entire human race to oblivion, you know, just do that. 
That might change their attitude a little. 
Yeah. 
Sorry, I didn't mean to get off on that. 
I'm going to get off the line and let somebody else phone in. 
Hopefully they'll talk about Kevin. 
So Rebel, please don't phone again. 
He talked about Kevin a little bit. 
Yeah, but Rebel's famous for phoning up all the time. 
And then he's put, I mean, while he was doing that FedEx thing, you had dead air on YouTube. 
I don't know what was going on there. 
Well, that's what he asked us to do. 
He asked us to not say anything. 
So we were respecting that. 
But I realized after a while I had an opportunity to divert his package if I, if I said the right things to the computer, but I didn't talk fast enough. 
Well, with any luck, somebody would do that because that's the shenanigans that Kevin would love to, you know, to muck around with him. 
Absolutely, absolutely. 
I like doing myself. 
It's harmless fun. 
Maybe as long as it's not malicious. 
Yeah, Zap, maybe that's what we can do. 
Embark on as many harmless pranks as you possibly can in the name of Kevin. 
I think he would appreciate that. 
I don't know if my fellow crew from London 2600 would appreciate because I tend to get them near to getting arrested sometimes. 
It's just shenanigans, you know, mischief. 
But yeah, we're still suffering from Martavik's passing to be honest with you. 
We're still not feeling it. 
It's like the heart's been ripped out. 
Yeah, so we got a few things to do. 
So yeah, not a very good year, you know, so that's the way he's life. 
That's true. 
That's true. 
All right. 
Those apps always hearing from you and please be well, I'll be in touch. 
Well, we'll see you at some point. 
Thanks for calling. 
Hopefully. 
All right. 
Take care. 
All right. 
Bye. 
Bye. 
That's that from London. 
You know, I forgot until he reminded me that that's how we met literally. 
He was walking past me in a conference center wearing a 2600 hat. 
I stopped him. 
You know, I should have written about that anecdote in the article this this month and zap. 
I'm I'm sorry. 
I didn't recall it to put it in there, but it would have totally fit when when you read it, you know what I mean? 
Well, you didn't recall it, but we can recall all the issues and print it again. 
You could do that. 
I'll get it right this time. 
That would be nice. 
You wouldn't mind. 
No, it's part of the publishing game. 
You can do that. 
By the way, we didn't mention this on the radio. 
We probably should have but we're so bad at self-promotion, but now you can get 2600 PDF subscription and Kindle subscription directly from us. 
In other words, you don't need Amazon anymore. 
We'll talk more about that on the radio though in the future time, but that was a lot of work too. 
That was part of what we were doing up in Yukon and all so so there's that and yeah, you know Alex though, wouldn't you have met zap at Beyond Hope which because that was 1997 and you were pretty pretty much an active hacker then and he was at that conference. 
Yeah, I don't I don't think I met him. 
No, I don't think that I did. 
Well add that to your list of regrets because it was it was so much fun hanging out with the Brits when they came over in 1997. 
I'll never forget that. 
Of course, do we have a call? 
I think we do. 
Do we have a call? 
Yes. 
Okay, and good evening. 
You're on off the go time. 
Go ahead. 
Hello everyone. 
This is Johnny fusion. 
Hey Johnny fusion. 
How are you doing? 
I'm doing really great. 
I'm finally living somewhat independently no longer in the medical facility and that's awesome living life. 
Okay. 
Well, it's good to hear some good news for a change. 
Yeah. 
I never met Kevin but like I followed him from afar and a lot of the times I felt but for the grace of the gods go I right because a lot of the stuff that he was accused of doing I did for fun, but I never got caught, you know, either because of good upset or just dumb luck is what I really think it was, you know, and Kevin kind of I feel took the heat for hackers like me and hackers all over the country. 
Are you familiar with the concept of a whipping boy? 
I've heard that phrase in many contexts, but yeah, I think I think Kevin was unjustly treated and and blamed for a lot of things as you say many of us did whether it's making free phone calls or you know, accessing computers not supposed to access or just not obeying when we're supposed to obey, you know, if you if you piss off the wrong people and and they they make it their life's mission to make you suffer. 
Yeah, you're going to feel that unfortunately and that's what I feel happened to Kevin and a great deal of that was as our friend Greg said due to the New York Times to do what they did that due to how they they escalated the story and put him on the front page and made him, you know Target number one. 
So the FBI pretty much had to make that a priority. 
Right and really just to enrich Markov's career, you know, he found something he could write about and sensationalize and make a name for himself and I really feel that it was Markov's pursuit of a story he could sell and he did sell it all over the place that made Kevin infamous instead of just another merry prankster with technical acumen. 
Yeah, I can't disagree with that. 
It certainly had that effect and when you consider, you know, as as somebody who writes for a newspaper, there are so many stories. 
You don't really need that. 
You don't really need to cash in and tell this story that's going to make a movie out of it and and all that especially if it's about a human being, you know, your job is to tell the story and be accurate not be a part of the story yourself. 
Yeah. 
I mean he was there when Kevin got apprehended. 
Mm-hmm. 
Yeah, he even said in court. 
I wish you luck Kevin. 
Kevin heard that it could not believe himself that he would say that but yeah, that was that was definitely something. 
Yeah, and I think I really think that Markov kind of made him a symbol for all hackerdom, you know, it's like the mythology of him being this arch hacker and if you punish Kevin and you're punishing the community by proxy. 
Mm-hmm. 
I remember going to the Stockton Public Library. 
The day after that New York Times article came out and going there and getting the library copies in New York Times because you know, they're there, you know, there weren't websites back then. 
Well, there were but they were very primitive, right, you know, that newspapers weren't online and sitting there in the library reading this sensationalist piece in the New York Times, you know far, you know right near the card catalogs that I you know, they were just terminals, but I figured out a way to hack them and tell that out to other places. 
Oh boy from the public library, you know. 
And yeah, I you know, it's like like like the last caller said I did read that book cyberpunk, you know, as a young person who was you know, just into hacking and I came very close to meeting Kevin actually. 
Because I because you know how you said how you wish when he called that he was out of the country, right? 
When I landed in Amsterdam in 1995 and made friends with the hackers there that did hack tech and access for all. 
Rob told me. 
That before he got caught they were planning for him to escape to Amsterdam and were he not apprehended we would have been there in the same time with the same circle of friends, you know, but fate didn't have that in mind. 
Well, I don't think he would have really done that. 
I think he would have wanted to stay in his home country. 
He wouldn't want to leave his family even though he was still on the run making that change where maybe you can never go back again a la Snowden or something. 
I don't think he would have been comfortable doing that. 
That's just my personal observation. 
Yeah, maybe it was just one possibility. 
He was thinking I don't I don't know but that's what I was told. 
I know that was that was what they wanted to do. 
That's what a lot of us wanted him to do, but I don't think he would have ever actually left Rob. 
Did you have something? 
Yeah, I think that just speaks to the esteem that the community has held him in where he had people across the world willing to wrangle that sort of thing for him had he had he chose to go through with it. 
Yeah, so well, that's that's about it this week. 
I got I got other stuff like, you know, because when I went to Amsterdam, I met, you know, Bill Squire, Bill SF and how he hacked Bart and now I write Bart every week and I don't think it's hackable anymore. 
Everything's hackable, but maybe in a different way. 
I don't know. 
Well get involved in that. 
Yeah, but thank you and thank you for the lovely tribute and I'll probably be going to my first 2600 meeting on next Friday. 
You mean you've never gone to a 2600 meeting? 
I've never lived anywhere where they were really close by. 
Okay, that's that's great. 
Then I hope you have a great time. 
And for those who don't know they take place the first Friday of every month in various cities go to 2600.com slash meetings. 
You'll get a full listing and you can start your own if you if you want to start one as there's a list of guidelines on how to do that. 
But I'll let you guys go now and thank you again for the lovely tribute. 
Hey Kevin, and I'm very sorry that you lost your friend. 
Thank you. 
Thanks. 
All right, you be well. 
I will. 
Take care. 
Nice calls tonight. 
I'm really very very touched by them. 
Yeah heartfelt and we just we're right there with you. 
Might have time for one more. 
If it comes quickly 8 0 2 3 2 1 4 2 2 5 8 0 2 3 2 1 hack. 
It's like you have something to say Rob. 
Yeah, while we're waiting for a call. 
I was thinking a lot lately about the last time I saw Kevin which is the last time he came to the studio to do this program with us. 
It was March 1st 2017 and he had a new book out the art of invisibility and he came down we were doing a fundraiser. 
He was kind enough to donate copies of his book as as premiums and yeah, he was there in the studio with all of us and it was you know, it's a good episode. 
You can go back and listen to it. 
But also it was just it was it was a good hang afterward. 
We all went out to dinner. 
He was kind enough to pick up the check for all of us that I remember and and and yeah, it I didn't realize how long it had been until I went back and looked up the episode. 
But yeah, it is it is mind-blowing that he's not there anymore and you know, he he will be terribly missed terribly missed by very many. 
He's not there in the sense that we knew him as being there but he is very much there as far as how we think of him how we remember him. 
I think you know, we'll continue to feel his his his effects on our lives every day. 
I think it changes us. 
So I you know, I hope that's that's what we get out of all this that nobody has ever completely gone, you know, they live on in one way or another. 
What studio were we in on that last time? 
We were in Brooklyn. 
We were in Brooklyn where we would be now had we not started doing this from home. 
Okay. 
All right, interesting. 
Yeah. 
Wow. 
So we haven't been in Harlem since before 2017. 
That's that's hard to believe. 
Yeah, I think it was 2016. 
We finished in Harlem. 
Okay, that's the time I had. 
Doesn't seem like that long ago. 
Yeah, time is something I'm having trouble with lately. 
It just seems to be out of control. 
Recall that it wasn't it wasn't completed as far as the studio that we would recognize today the big studio but it was Brooklyn in Brooklyn at that time. 
So that's that is something it took several years for it to be built out the way it is now. 
Yeah, I remember the the excerpt we played earlier the February 1995. 
We were on 8th Avenue then 505 8th Avenue was where the radio station was right by Penn Station. 
And I just remember doing that show and a bunch of us went out and got New York Times. 
The New York Times was out by the time our show was over and we just spent an hour or two in the station reading that article that front page article. 
It was just so much crap that came out that was basically condemning Kevin to you know, to basically be thought of as this monster criminal. 
That's really it was unfair. 
And I remember listening to that episode live. 
Wow. 
There's something all right. 
You know what? 
I think we're done with calls. 
Yeah, there are no more calls. 
All right, that's fine. 
That's fine. 
I want to thank everybody for listening. 
It looks like Alex you had something to say. 
Yeah, before we start I just wanted to take a poll here you know who around the room, I guess the screen here thinks that the Emmanuel his voice has got a lot deeper over the decades. 
You sounded like your voice to me sounded a lot higher back then. 
Do you want me to play your voice from 1995? 
Oh, because I can do that. 
I can do that Alex. 
Yeah, that's true. 
I'm sure you can dig it up. 
There are many judges and fellow lawyers who would gather around the radio and be highly entertained for many an hour. 
So I'm sure I am sure proceed with caution as you are told in court, I believe. 
Yeah, it's crazy to think that yeah, that is definitely out there, isn't it? 
Uh-huh. 
Yeah, so I think we all sounded younger 29 years ago. 
Yeah, it is amazing though, but you don't think of your voice changing after puberty, I guess, but it does. 
Yeah, things happen to voices, you know, they get raspy they, you know, and the thinking behind it sometimes changes as well, you know, it becomes more conservative perhaps or slower or faster. 
I don't know people change. 
Definitely your case more conservative, you know, you know, it's it's time that we clamp down on those people. 
Those people exactly, you know, I'm talking about that to sound like a true Republican, you know, except I'm talking about Republicans. 
So yeah, just I'm just thankful that nobody nobody was talking about you, you know who on the show today and the hearing and all that nonsense. 
Hunter Biden. 
Well, thanks for thanks for ruining it after almost making it but but you were giving me a strange look like, you know, you didn't know what I was talking about that. 
I wasn't even looking at you. 
I was looking across the room. 
I thought you were talking about the UAP hearing. 
Yeah, UFO here. 
Why they rename UFOs for God's sake. 
That's part of some kind of plot. 
I think to keep UFOs like secret like call them something else. 
But what so what is it now unidentified aerial phenomenon? 
Is that what it is? 
Or yes. 
Yes. 
Yeah, because UFO was wrong. 
Somehow unidentified flying had to use. 
Are they walking objects now? 
I mean, what do they are they in the air or not? 
Where are they? 
It's just that they wanted to broaden it so that it wasn't specifically aeronautical vehicles because some of this Stuff is theorized to be not necessarily spacecraft or a flying vehicle. 
Some of it is stuff that's capable of being submerged and so they want all the domains of space and water unidentified boats unidentified anything in any matter air or water. 
So they just broadened it and it's actually really fascinating because this whistleblower. 
They're basically people whistleblowing on the DoD side and there's all these sort of other groups like the the NASA-led group and it's it's perplex. 
It's a it's a paradox. 
It's a very very bizarre fascinating bipartisan hearing and it's very strange strange times. 
I'd like to go to one of those hearings. 
Yeah, but anyway, I'm still not speaking to Amtrak test your hearing definitely preserve your hearing. 
Okay, that's that's that's good advice to end on. 
Thank you everybody for listening OTH at 2600.com is our email address. 
If there's anything you'd like to share with us, we will be back next week. 
Is that is that the plan? 
We're going to do this again next week. 
Okay, and we'll have other things to talk about and we'll have overtime again. 
Hopefully with the online chat. 
We'll see. 
Indeed. 
We will return to that feature as soon as we have the capacity, but please thank you. 
Please continue to and thanks so very much for listening tonight. 
Yes, and let's all remember Kevin. 
Let's all try and do things that he would find funny and productive because that's the kind of person he was that's kind of person. 
He always was and through us he will live on in one way or another. 
All right. 
See you next week. 
Good night. 
  and welcome to everybody here on youtube hello you're holding the microphone in your hand i forgot to move it okay well just put it down put it down it's gonna be loud though oh well that's what people like to hear go ahead put it down gently no hard there you go uh rob did you make it i've made it okay and uh alex it looks like you're here as well yeah i'm i'm here i like the suit by the way i think you should dress up every week yeah i i i tend to agree you know i i just feel like i take the show much more seriously we've been looking for ways to make you do that and this this seems to be a good step at least so um so there's that um well you know what uh let's just uh give out the phone number right away so that if people have anything they they wish to share about kevin and we don't have to uh just talk about that we can talk about other things as well uh 802-321-4225 is our phone number 802-321-HACK uh it's been a while since we've done this and by the way we're not doing the chat tonight because we're down a staff member and it takes all of us all of our combined mental abilities to be able to to um uh field all the comments that are coming our way to make sure that uh they're acceptable for our audience and all that um yeah so uh difficult show you it would be um yeah it's um i i you know it's i'm still processing i'm still processing that um that kevin's gone and um it's going to take a while you know but this is part of living part of living is dealing with loss and um i don't know if i'm gonna get any better at it but uh it's something we're all going through together so nobody out there should feel like they're alone rob go ahead um yeah and uh as i as i said on a radio hour there have been so many reminiscences shared with us uh we'd like to hear more so give us a call but while we're waiting for calls i'd like to read one or two uh things that came in on mastodon um over the past week um when we posted the news um margaret posts uh shocked and saddened to hear of kevin's passing i was on the editorial team that published his first book the art of deception which gave invaluable insights into the human aspects of tech security um yeah code ripper says i'm re-watching freedom downtime this morning um f cancer you quite agree yeah yeah it's i can't even imagine the hell that he was going through over the past year you know because uh as we mentioned pancreatic cancer is so unforgiving and and so relentless and so hard to even detect and it's just it's so humbling to realize that um you know on this planet there was nobody that could help him that's where we are in our development as as human race one day that will change i have no doubt but right now yeah it's uh it's a terrible thing it's a terrible thing and i just um i hope he found peace during that that horrible ordeal as if he hadn't been through enough horrible ordeals we have a call kyle okay let's uh no that's not uh something we want it's a regular caller that's a regular call what do you mean by that the fast busy oh the off hook tone yes uh the the phone line uh will be open for a couple more minutes it's open now 802-321-4225 yeah that's an anticipation of a call please feel free to join our conversation otherwise you can always write us oth at 2600.com yeah we had him on the show a number of times and it was it was always so much fun taking calls from from listeners then um and just uh giving him you know a platform a way to reach out to people that that first talk at hope you know in in 2004 that was a big deal because remember uh 1994 he was on the run you know in fact i remember we were talking to him on on on wall phones at the hotel hotel pennsylvania we didn't know where he was but he was phoning in to see how the conference was going again it was the first big conference in the united states it was it was uh inspired by the dutch conferences then in 1997 uh he had been caught but he was in prison so obviously he couldn't come to the uh to the conference then uh in 2000 h2k he was out but he was on uh supervised release for three years which also kept him from attending in 2002 at h2k2 but the fifth hope in 2004 was uh the period where uh supervised release ended and um yeah he was he he showed up and that i believe is the first time he ever actually started talking about his life what he was going through not just um security talks and things like that which he excelled at and uh did such an amazing job and helped so many people and companies and institutions throughout the world it became his his mission and people really started to realize this guy has talent this guy knows something this guy should never have been locked away go ahead rob and uh you mentioned 2000 where he couldn't uh be at the conference he wasn't allowed to associate with his computer friends but that was the year that uh freedom downtime premiered at the conference or at least an earlier cut of it and at the end there was a recorded message from kevin um which i think is his first uh like intentional uh legal appearance at uh at a hope conference and i remember and i'm sure you remember the round of applause that that got when he popped up on the screen yeah absolutely that was that was that was something that was an incredible time it really was we have a phone call carl yes okay and good evening you're on off the hook overtime go ahead yes emmanuel um yes how old was kevin i'm just curious he was hearing about he was 59 59 oh wow okay i'm way older than me okay well i'm sorry that uh that happened yeah you know first what that was uh who was the gym and then yeah it's been it's been a rough year it really has been um had you had you met kevin any of the conferences i think i did and no h2k4 i hope 2004 i think i did meet him yeah that's the one we that's the one we played the excerpt from just uh earlier right yeah i met him there i don't know if i met him oh well i don't remember but i might have i mean i did go to the talk but i i mean look he he probably would have met you at some point we wouldn't have been able to stop him so uh not that we would have tried but i'm just saying he he was very personable and um and and reached out to everybody and would listen to everybody didn't matter if you were 12 or or 80 he would listen to you i hope you don't go well thank you that's the nicest thing you've ever said but um yeah uh fingers crossed um rebel were you were you at the 2600 meeting in i think it was march of 2000 when kevin was out of prison and he was able to go to the new york city 2600 meeting um march of when was it was it 2000 or would it have been later i don't think he would have been allowed to go in 2000 but when whenever it was it was his first uh 2600 meeting and he wrote about it later for the magazine and uh he he showed up and i don't think he was sure what to expect but people like recognized him and started speaking with him and uh at one point uh they made the shift to asking him for autographs but uh which i don't think he was quite prepared for but he uh he that was the first time i met him in person and i think he might have been there rebel um and and uh he was he was very he was very engaging and uh great to talk with even then and now i'm curious when that was go ahead rebel yeah oh you haven't been around you've been traveling again i was at the meeting and you said they said you were traveling again who said i was traveling again well i was i was in alaska yeah i actually haven't been on the radio since june so yeah i guess i guess they were telling the truth well because we haven't you haven't had a show since when uh the last time i called in was when i was in russia when i was in st petersburg uh-huh i remember when i was in uh in petersburg they have you know national guard well i guess their version of national guard people at the airport and at the train stations you know and um you know like if you go to the main uh transit hub they have like national guard like looking people with armed people who look you know at the subway the uh not the subway station but the uh railway still like like the the main railway stations and at the airports and things like that uh-huh well it must have been a fun experience going going over there again a second time yeah so is there anything else you want to share with us well i wanted to mention i wanted to demonstrate that well 1-800-GO-FEDEX because i was trying to order something or let me see the status of an order it actually changed because i ordered something online which i don't like doing but sometimes you have to when you you know when you can't get something in the store and uh they got the wrong address and uh they said well we delivered the package to you where we tried and there was no address or it was incorrect or whatever the sender said said this the people i thought of them so i was trying to call fedex and um so i can demonstrate what happens when you don't you know do send it they don't even uh connect you anymore uh-huh like a representative uh well you're just going to connect this to a recording right i mean we're just going to be as frustrated as you've been right would you want to hold and i'll demonstrate it but it's voice activated so i'm going to put myself on mute and you shouldn't talk okay so we'll shut up and uh we'll just let you run things for a for a moment okay uh just uh you put yourself on you hold on okay can you refill my glass welcome to fedex this call may be monitored or recorded for quality assurance we have new enhanced mobile features you can conveniently access from your phone are you calling from a cell phone last time you called about a shipment with a tracking number ending in five four nine six did you want to check on that shipment if you're calling to get information about the tracking number ending in five four nine six say yes or press one otherwise say no or press two yes okay this fedex ground shipment i'm sorry go ahead sorry i still didn't understand no it's my fault that's all you need no please tell me about the tracking give me all the information sorry i'm having so much trouble unfortunately that's all the information we can provide at this time you didn't tell me anything manage your delivery no please visit fedex.com where is it being delivered don't tell me please no don't hang up please don't go oh you see i mean if you don't have buttons on your telephone like you know i feel so rejected wow she was gonna drop your docs though she was gonna tell me all kinds of information as to where that package was going and and the full tracking number maybe well i that just went out over the years it sure did yes people already uh filling in the numbers well um let's see well i uh they don't say anything it hangs up it says you know well let me demonstrate it when you don't actually no i won't yeah i think i think you demonstrated it just fine you know i think we we get the idea yeah and when you call they're in the philippines okay that's also good to know uh rebel anything else gonna try and take some more calls um no i guess that's it okay i hope nobody hacks my package now it's only a gaming chair well now you've told us what it is and you've given us the last few digits um and you know it's interesting that they remember that you called before about that uh that particular well because of my phone number that's why yeah i didn't know they did that now i know that yeah so maybe mask that next time when you're calling a radio station all right rebel good hearing from you again it's an 800 number it's an 800 oh yes it's an 800 they get your phone number very easily yeah i hope you get your chair yeah i hope it all works out well yeah it's about to come monday it's about to come monday excuse me yeah i i take care of that first uh it's about to come monday so it's coming from california wow hope we didn't give him covid you know we caught covid on the way back and it's the kind that goes through telephone lines the kind yeah there is a kind that does that yeah why not people will believe anything right people will believe whatever you say these days so why not yeah it's covid that goes through the telephone lines all right rebel uh stay healthy all right and uh we we hope to see you at the uh the the forthcoming hope whatever it's called next year yeah whenever it is it'll be next year it'll be next year we promise oh next year all right okay and i hope to see you at the 2600 meeting you might you just might thank you uh for calling and uh and thanks for that wonderful wish of me staying alive that's that's a hold that close to me yeah all right be well okay bye uh and uh rob you'll be pleased to know that i uh did some research in fact i did some research on our own website on the off the hook archives 2600.com uh and i found out that kevin in fact did attend the march 2000 meeting i'll i'll tell you exactly how it uh played out a court tv appearance allows kevin to be in new york and attend the 2600 meeting there that is how it happened yes i i was looking at the date stamp on the photo that i have from uh from the day um of a of a friend of mine getting something signed um so yes it was uh it was it was a it was an interesting day because so many of us had been rallying for so long around the cause of kevin and i think for very many people this was the first time that he was an actual human being standing in front of them yeah i remember that i remember that you know in city group uh maybe it was called city core back then uh basically uh yeah there he was not making a big deal of of being there but people just came up to him saying oh you're kevin and just that's it you know not freaking out or or you know getting all like uh you know uh crazy that there's a celebrity amongst their mitts uh just basically saying oh it's good to meet you you know and and and that's all he wanted that's all he wanted was to be included was to be part of a community and and this community really opened up to him it really did especially uh after the nightmare was was ebbing a bit so um absolutely and you know he never he never asked for the path that uh brought him into such prominence in our community but uh i think he he was able to uh use it well and uh deal with it well and uh you know remain a contributing and uh and lively part of the hacker community um for for the decades after all right we have another phone call okay good evening you are on off the hook over time go ahead yeah hi uh thanks very much for the uh past hour that was uh that was great tribute uh you gave to kevin i i know um that he he took part in at least one uh social engineering panel i believe at hope and um as well as that keynote that you uh played before so uh besides those two did he have any other appearances at the hope conferences or was it just those two oh gosh you're testing my memory i i mean i'm sure he was there for a few uh i'm not sure if he spoke at all of them uh i would say at least two or three at least okay yeah well i'll look through youtube but what was what was special about 2004 though 2004 the the fifth hope uh was basically his his mom and his grandmother came with him and it was just it was such a joyous occasion them being in new york city and him not being in prison of course they were horrified by the rooms in hotel pen but you know they got over that they said you know what it's okay uh this is a special occasion and we're all just gonna get through the weekend and we all did we had a great time and it was just so nice seeing everybody together and i just wish there could have been more days like that well uh when i saw on the uh and on the internet that he passed away i re-watched uh freedom downtime and uh it still holds up i mean i love it as much uh just seeing it as i saw when i saw it the first time and when i saw it at hope my first reaction was i hope you guys will just replay it i wanted to see it all over again as soon as it ended it was that great so thanks so much for making that film thank you for thank you for the support that's that means a lot to us and i hope you'll consider making another documentary if some issue uh moves you as much because you really did a phenomenal job on that film well we broke all the rules i'll tell you that right now uh so i'm not sure i can i can get away with it again but um i don't know who knows there certainly are a lot of issues it's a question of which one do you pick there's just so much out there but again you know back then there was no youtube uh there weren't smartphones now so many people can do what we did and probably do a better job so i hope that people take advantage of of the technology that's at their fingertips yeah the means of producing um are that much cheaper to edit to do all that stuff as uh was done with freedom downtime including distribution um i think there's still half a pallet of vhs tapes somewhere that we're trying to find a home for you know recycling vhs tapes is a really tricky business oh my god that's great you basically have to incinerate it um but long story long uh thank you for the acknowledgement and we are still um uh walking around with cameras so to speak ourselves so uh with any luck maybe we will have some more uh filmmaking in the future please encourage us well thanks for the great tribute and i will i will definitely check out uh his previous talks on youtube so great thanks thanks for paying tribute to him uh he'll he'll definitely be missed and uh rest in peace kevin and thank you guys for doing such a great job thank you very much take care bye what a nice call that was great i think that personifies pretty much what the community has been feeling in the past uh week or so he really did maintain a presence he would uh he would travel a lot i know he did come as you were uh reaching for he was at at least in a personal capacity he would attend every now and then and and of course other events and conferences around the country and the world and he was able to rebuild a consulting career and help people as you said he traveled all over the place met and um and continued on persevered sharing his knowledge and uh doing it for hire too and uh being able to sustain himself in that way and uh and uh to great benefit i think of a lot of organizations and we were anybody uh who was able to see him or um catch up with him or uh hear but hear about uh his latest ventures i think was was better for it and uh we were really really lucky to to have him uh after so much um for the even short period that we did you want to hear something crazy um kevin actually helped us today it's weird because you know i was i was looking for that clip on uh our our one of our hope websites and uh this is something we don't really publicize but uh a lot of people are figured out already uh we assign a roman numeral to each conference and um we used to have a different a different domain in other words we had h2k.net we might still have that h2k2.net every conference had a different uh website a different domain that we would have to register and um you know it's great when you have two or three conferences but when when getting over over a dozen uh there's a lot of domains you have to keep renewing and and eventually ask yourself the question why don't we just have it all done locally and we simply make you know the fourth conference be iv.hope.net uh and uh you know etc so the fifth um the fifth hope.net i believe uh is either fifth hope.net or the fifth hope.org the fact that i can't remember it is it's one of the reasons why i figured it was time to just let it expire and that's what we did we let it expire and we um we rerouted um um everything to go locally except for some reason we didn't do that we didn't do it the way we were supposed to do it uh and um while looking for kevin's talk today i was trying to go to v.hope.net for the fifth hope and it went somewhere else because somebody else grabbed the fifth hope.net or.org and um i yeah i thought we had some kind of uh you know intrusion or something i was i was i was a little uh concerned uh then i realized no we just hadn't done that yet we hadn't um made sure that everything rerouted locally but had i not been looking for kevin's talk who knows how long that would have been there for so and that was the only one too of all the conferences that was the only one that was misconfigured hey that's actually pretty good yeah well but uh also should never have happened that's true we'll we'll get uh i just get after whoever was responsible for similar to how kevin was blamed for everything that went wrong i i hope he gets credit for everything that goes right in the in the future because he certainly deserves that i like that something else you know that we we had a machine uh that we named after his grandmother uh years ago called reba um she was just such an incredible woman she was so inspirational and personified everything that uh that we were talking about that he was going through and i just think a great tribute would be if you have the ability to name a machine name it kevin or name it mitnick or name it something like that just kdm he was known as that um it's just a good tribute to have have something named after especially if if it gets routed in email and things like that and you see it pop up everywhere i didn't think you were going to mention the uh machine name just generally but uh uh that's the kind of thing that we did reba's was the most powerful machine we ever worked with too by the way well it's it's also still vital in some ways like 20 hard drive it was just it was amazing it was a workhorse it does it does a lot um to this day still um in in many ways i didn't know we still had it okay no no it um it it is uh still involved in in the production and uh we we use it all the time so those kinds of little things though are just for us like who would get that it would be something that you would mention to him or that you know when his um grandmother it was grandmother right now i'm now blanking yeah of course um when she passed it was like immediate we were in the middle of of building that the first time it was built it's been rebuilt a couple times it had to be named that absolutely it's in a new whatever we changed all kinds of things enclosures all that but the every time it's it stayed and it's the kind of thing only he would get or that we would that we would remind ourselves and that anybody else saying oh we named this certain machine or they wouldn't really know why you have to explain the whole thing but it was so intimate and it made so much sense to us at the time um that he would have immediately understood the importance to us and and that it was in her honor and in respect for uh his impact on on what we do so do that yes please uh honor name a machine name name a uh a domain or a project whatever you can find ways to at least for yourselves um uh to carry that on to to remember and to uh just give give some little corner of of your infrastructure to uh the memory of someone so so powerful and just know that he would laugh at that he would approve most definitely okay do we have any other phone calls or i forgot oh we do i'm sorry someone's been on hold all that time they're patiently waiting i'm so sorry uh good evening you're on off the hook over time go ahead hello you there i think i might fall asleep is anybody there caller caller are you there yeah sure ah there you are okay where are you calling from uh new york new york i've heard of it no i got you there is that is that funny alex you just tie up a phone line and uh you're there on the screen as well uh call callers please uh know that the phone lines are open yeah yeah i i wasn't even on the phone line i was just speaking i was probably you just you can't tell it wait so you're not on the phone no oh okay well i'm not as angry but somebody is on the phone okay so is anybody i hear noises everybody else please be quiet is anyone there yes no no it it's that was me yeah all right alex disconnected turn cut his mic off i want his mic cut all right so we're gonna have to start over um 802-321-4225 apologies to the caller who might have been trying to speak but we couldn't hear them um all right 802-321-4225 those kind of shenanigans yeah that's exactly the kind of thing kevin would have done i know yeah exactly yeah well now now we know there's a weak spot here right so with your headphones you can't tell it's there's no different channel or or sound for the um you just figure that out now that you that the board is we can't tell yeah what channel is being used for for input yeah how would you tell that you need video for that no idea yeah but i guess it all just sounds the same to you so well be that as it may we have another call yeah all right and good evening you're on off the hook overtime good evening how you doing where you calling from london england oh is this zap yeah it's me it's you know it's it's it's a little sad that we know if it's calling if it's a call from london it's zap because nobody else in london would call us but we're glad that you're on the phone well it is 1 30 in the morning most people are working tomorrow well yeah some people are working now they could call us in the middle of their their work day yeah true but i'm finding out because of uh kevin of course yes yeah sad times um it's really it everyone i suppose really bad um he was you know quite a force in the hacking community but um i just want to recall one of the memories i saw a couple of memories i have of kevin um first time i spoke to kevin was in 1997 uh when he was in prison and i think you were the one that passed me your cellular phone and um he was asking some questions because uh tom t0m had said some things to him and gave him a lot of promises which unfortunately tom being the person he was those promises were not going to happen and uh that was the first time i spoke to kevin so i had to tell you tell him the truth and laid down on the line that tom wasn't going to deliver what he'd promised so that's one of the memories i have um yeah 1997 wow well you said more than just that i hope uh well i spoke to kevin but it's difficult when he's phoning from prison because he's going to be on a limited time and it's just a matter of getting the information he wanted right uh it wasn't really a social call it's more like a business call trying to give him the help that i could give him um but there's some memories that come with that i mean i remember all the demonstrations all around the world when we were um demonstrating outside the american embassies and um i think you know there was all all the ones done there was one in russia that i remember uh there was one in london that i organized um so we had a representation in london um but um yeah it's just a bit of a shock um yeah definitely um but you're saying about naming computers um i don't think anyone's mentioned these one of these handles i think was condor that's right condor was it was uh from um uh from the movie right yeah yeah yeah three days of the condor three days of the condor robert redford i believe um there's actually a little scene in there with the telephones i can understand why kevin chose that as a handle it's pretty good movie it's one of my favorites it's a great movie yeah i think i saw kevin finally i never saw him at a hope i've been to about two and a half hopes um in england he was actually a keynote speaker for one of the shows that i went to uh trade show and i finally got to speak to kevin and met him and i reminded him about the phone call he didn't remember and he did say it was like 20 years ago um so yeah so i did actually meet the guy so i was quite happy about that i'm glad you got my 26 i was gonna say wearing my 2600 hat that i always wear when i go to these trade shows in fact that's how i met alex the lawyer i don't know if he recalls that's right yeah that i of course i do that was at the uh it was like the the information security gather infosec conference europe um might have been at the olympia or something was it some giant convention center wasn't it i can't i think it was at the excel center i'm not too sure all the shows sort of running to one another um i can't remember it was ip expo or i think it had been ipxo in october but i remember you said cool hat and that's right about 2600 and that's when i said there's one in london there's a meeting in london and he was like how did i not know this and then he started turning up while you were over here yeah that's that's exactly right that is exactly right i think this is actually the kind of stuff that i talk about in the latest issue isn't it in uh in my article so yeah you should pick it up and read it so it's pretty funny okay i'll try and look out for that when the issue comes through yeah that's that's all the memories i've got really of kevin um i can't really think i mean he was very limited because being in the uk um i was just lucky to meet him when he came over it's a shame that he died so young yeah and to be an expectant father as well i believe he's got a son on the way so it's like it's difficult is it is it a son that do they know uh if it's a son or a daughter i didn't know that i believe i believe i read it on twitter but don't hold me today you got a 50 50 chance um but i believe he's expecting a son um which he'll never meet which is a shame i know it's just it's it's such uh such a tragedy on that at that level alone but also there's there's something happy about that too because a part of kevin will live on yeah the legacy will go on um i'm thinking about the first time i heard of kevin i think was in that terrible book called cyberpunk cyberpunk yes which john markoff was also involved in um and and his ex-wife katie hefner yeah i think that's the first time i read about kevin mitnick and his antics when he was younger uh didn't put a very good light on it um heard more things through 2600 the magazine which was better um i actually watched freedom downtime again i think that's something you have to do um it's just watch freedom downtime if you haven't seen it already uh go go find it on on youtube or something yeah um but yeah um i think at the next meeting which will be the august meeting now uh well i think we'll get the group the guys and the girls to raise a glass to kevin as we always do one one of us has fallen that's that's a very good sentiment i i do appreciate that i'm very inspired by that yeah actually um can i just ask any of you guys going to defcon uh i am not because i've got all kinds of work to do i went to alaska and that took a lot out of me but uh alex uh your finger is raised so i guess that means yeah i'll i'll be going to defcon i'll be there for a couple of days uh are you are you heading over that way sir no i've never been to defcon uh which surprises a lot of people because i've been in this game for many and many a year um i try to stay loyal go to hope and i've only been to like i think two and a half or three and a half um how do you go to a half hope how do you go to a half hope well it's a bird it's a virtual hope oh okay virtual okay so i classify those as a half you know i haven't been back since about a thousand unfortunately um i'm due back at some point if i ever get a passport um but yeah i should sort of uh go along to one of these defcons so it's on my bucket list so hopefully i'll go one day yeah you should do it before las vegas melts completely because what's 120 degrees now it's insane i know i i actually saw something on euronews uh yesterday uh i thought i misheard i thought they said that the the planet is hotter than it's been in 120 years no they said in 120 000 years the the planet is hotter than it has ever been throughout all of humankind think about that i mean i just i can't even wrap my head around that yeah it's crazy and it's our fault too if i if i didn't make that clear it's our fault so it's you know we're messing the whole place up and if if people are standing in the way and saying oh you know what i'm not going to do anything and climate change be damned treat them as if they're they're condemning the entire human race to oblivion you know just do that that might change their attitude a little yeah okay sorry i didn't mean to get off on that i'm gonna get off the line let somebody else phone in hopefully they'll talk about kevin so rebel please don't phone again he talked about kevin a little bit yeah but rebel's famous for phoning up all the time and then he's i mean while he was doing that fedex thing you had dead air on youtube i don't know what was going on there well that's what he asked us to do he asked us to not say anything so we were respecting that but i realized after a while i had an opportunity to divert his package if i if i said the right things to the computer but i didn't talk fast enough well with any luck somebody would do that because that's the shenanigans that kevin would love to you know to muck around with absolutely joke absolutely i like doing myself you know it's harmless fun um maybe as long as it's not malicious yeah zap maybe that's what we can do uh embarking as many harmless pranks as you possibly can in the name of kevin i think he would appreciate that i don't have my fellow crew from london 2600 appreciate because i tend to get them near to getting arrested sometimes it's just shenanigans you know mischief um but yeah um we're still suffering from mastervick's passing to be honest with you we're still not feeling it it's like the heart's been ripped out yeah and so we've got a few things to do so yeah not a very good year but you know so that's the way his life that's true that's true all right well zap's always good hearing from you and uh please be well i'll be in touch well we'll see you at some point thanks for calling hopefully all right take care bye bye bye that's zap from london you know i i forgot until he reminded me that that's how we met literally he was walking past me in a in a conference center uh wearing a 2600 hat i i stopped him you know i i should have written about that anecdote in the article this this month and zap i'm i'm sorry i didn't recall it to put it in there but it would have totally fit when when you read it you know what i'll i'll mean well you didn't recall it but we can recall all the issues and and print it again you could do that get it right this time that would be nice you wouldn't mind no that's it's it's part of the publishing game you can do that uh by the way uh we didn't mention this on the radio we probably should have but we're so bad at self-promotion but now you can get 2600 uh pdf subscription and uh kindle subscription directly from us in other words you don't need amazon anymore we'll talk more about that on on the radio though in the future time but that was a lot of work too that was part of what we were doing up in yukon and all so so there's that and um yeah you know uh alex though wouldn't you have met zap at beyond hope which because that was 1997 and you were pretty uh pretty much an active hacker then and he was at that conference yeah i don't i don't think i met him though huh i don't think that i did um well add that to your list of regrets because uh it was it was so much fun hanging out with the brits when they came over in 1997 i i'll never forget that oh of course do we have a call i think we do do we have a call uh yes okay and good evening you're on off talk over time go ahead hello everyone this is johnny fusion hey johnny fusion how are you doing i'm doing really great i'm finally living somewhat independently no longer in the medical facility and that's awesome living life okay well it's good to hear some good news for a change yeah um i never met kevin but like i followed him from afar and a lot of the times i felt but for the grace of the gods go i right because a lot of the stuff that he was accused of doing i did for fun but i never got caught you know either because of good opsec or just dumb luck is what i really think it was you know and kevin kind of i feel took the heat for hackers like me and hackers all over the country are you familiar with the concept of a whipping boy i've heard that phrase in many contexts but um yeah i think uh i think kevin was unjustly treated and and blamed for a lot of things as you say many of us did uh whether it's making free phone calls or you know accessing computers we're not supposed to access or just not obeying when we're supposed to obey you know if you if you piss off the wrong people uh and and and they they make it their life's mission uh to to uh make you suffer um yeah you're going to feel that unfortunately and uh that's what i feel happened to kevin and a great deal of that was as as our friend greg said due to the new york times to do what they did that due to how they they escalated the story and put him on the front page and made him you know target number one so the fbi pretty much had to make that a priority right and really just to enrich markov's career you know he found something he could write about and sensationalize and make a name for himself and i really feel that it was markov's pursuit of a story he could sell and he did sell it all over the place that made kevin infamous instead of just another merry prankster with technical acumen yeah i i can't disagree with that it certainly had that effect and uh money consider you know as as somebody who writes for a newspaper there are so many stories you don't really need that you don't really need to uh cash in and and tell this story that's going to make a movie out of it and and all that especially if it's about a human being you know your job is to tell the story and be accurate not be a part of the story yourself yeah i mean he was there when kevin got apprehended yeah he even said in court i wish you luck kevin kevin heard that he could not believe himself that he would say that but yeah that was that was uh definitely something yeah and i think i really think that markov kind of made him a symbol for all hackerdom you know it's like the mythology of him being this our attacker and if you punish kevin and you're punishing the community by proxy i remember going to the stockton public library um the day after that new york times article came out and going there and getting the library copies of the new york times because you know they're there you know there weren't websites back then well there were but they were very primitive right you know that newspapers weren't online and sitting there in the library reading this sensationalist piece in the new york times you know far you know right near the card catalogs that i you know they were just terminals but i figured out a way to hack them and tell that out to other places oh boy from the public library you know and uh yeah i you know it's something like like uh like the last caller said i did read that book cyberpunk you know as a young person who was you know just into hacking and and i came very close to meeting kevin actually because i because you know how you said how you wish when he called that he was out of the country right when i landed in amsterdam in 1995 and made friends with the hackers there that did hacktick and excess for all uh rop told me that before he got caught they were planning for him to escape to amsterdam and were he not apprehended we would have been there in the same time with the same circle of friends you know but fate didn't have that in mind well i don't think he would have really done that i think he would have wanted to stay in his home country he wouldn't want to leave his family even though he was still on the run making that change where maybe you can never go back again a la snowden or something uh i don't think he would have been comfortable doing that that's just my personal observation yeah maybe it was just one possibility he was thinking i don't i don't know but that's what i was told i know that was that was what they wanted to do that's what a lot of us wanted him to do but i don't think he would have ever actually left rob did you have something yeah i i think that just speaks to the esteem that the community has held him in where he had people across the world uh willing to wrangle that sort of thing for him had he uh had he chose to go through with it yeah so well that's that's about it this week i got i got other stuff like you know because uh when i went to amsterdam i met you know bill squire bill sf and uh how he hacked bart and now i ride bart every week and uh i don't think it's hackable anymore oh everything's hackable but maybe in a different way i don't know i'm not gonna get involved in that yeah but uh thank you and thank you for the lovely tribute and uh i'll probably be going to my first 2600 meeting on next friday you mean you've never gone to a 2600 meeting i've never lived anywhere where they were really close by okay well that's that's great then i i hope you have a great time and uh for those who don't know they take place the first friday of every month in various cities go to 2600.com slash meetings you'll get a full listing and you can start your own if you if you want to start one there's there's a list of guidelines on how to do that but i'll i'll let you guys go now and thank you again for the lovely tribute to kevin and um i'm very sorry that that you lost your friend thank you thanks oh you be well i will take care nice calls tonight really uh very very touched by them yeah heartfelt and uh we just we're uh right there with you might have time for one more if it comes quickly 802-321-4225-802-321-HACK looks like you have something to say rub uh yeah while we're waiting for a call i was thinking a lot lately about the last time i saw kevin which is um the last time he came to the studio to do this program with us it was uh march 1st 2017 um and he had a new book out the art of invisibility and he came down we were doing a fundraiser he was kind enough to um donate copies of his book as as premiums um and uh yeah he was there in the studio with all of us and it was you know it's a good episode you can go back and listen to it but um also it was just it was it was a good hang um afterward we all went out to dinner um he was kind enough to pick up the check for all of us that i remember oh wow and uh and yeah it i didn't realize how long it had been until i went back and looked up the episode but yeah it is uh it is mind-blowing that he's not there anymore and you know he he will be terribly missed terribly missed by very many he's not there in the sense that we knew him as being there but he is very much there as far as how we think of him how we remember him i think you know we'll continue to feel his um his um his effects on on our lives every day i i think it changes us so i i you know i hope that's uh that's what we get out of all this that um nobody is ever completely gone you know they live on in one way or another what studio were we in on that last time we were in brooklyn we were in brooklyn where we would be now had we not uh started doing this from home okay all right interesting yeah wow so we haven't been in harlem since before 2017 that's that's hard to believe yeah i think it was 2016 we finished in uh harlem okay off the top of my head doesn't seem like that long ago yeah time is something i'm i'm having trouble with lately it just seems to be out of control recall that it wasn't it wasn't completed as far as uh the studio that we would recognize today the big studio but it was brooklyn in brooklyn at that time so that's that is something it took several years for it to be built out the way it is now yeah i remember uh the the excerpt we played earlier uh the february 1995 we were on eighth avenue then 505 eighth avenue was where the radio station was right by penn station uh and i just remember doing that show and uh a bunch of us went out and got uh new york times the new york times was out by the time our show was over and we just spent an hour or two in the station reading that article that front page article it was just so much crap that came out that was basically um um condemning uh kevin to um uh you know to basically be thought of as as this monster criminal that's really uh it was unfair and i remember listening to that episode live wow there's something all right you know what i think we're done with calls yeah there are no more calls all right that's fine that's fine i want to thank everybody for uh listening uh it looks like alex you have something to say yeah before we start i just wanted to take a poll here um you know who around the the room i guess or the screen here thinks that the emmanuel his voice has gotten a lot deeper over the decades you you sounded like your voice to me sounded a lot higher back then do you want me to play your voice from 1995 because i can do that i can do that alex yeah that's true i'm sure you can dig it up there are many judges and fellow lawyers who would gather around the radio and be highly entertained for for many an hour so i'm sure i am sure proceed with caution as you are told in court i believe yeah god it's crazy to think that yeah that is definitely out there isn't it uh-huh yeah so i think we i think we all sounded younger 29 years ago yeah it is amazing though but you you don't think of your voice changing after puberty i guess but it does yeah things happen to voices you know they get raspy they uh you know and and the thinking behind it sometimes changes as well you know it becomes more conservative perhaps or or or or slower or or faster i don't know people change definitely your case more conservative all right no you know it's it's time that we clamp down on those people yeah those people exactly yeah you know i'm talking about that said like a true republican i know except i'm talking about republicans so yeah oh just i'm just thankful that nobody nobody was talking about you you know who on the show today and the hearing and all that nonsense hunter biden well thanks for thanks for ruining it after almost making it but well you were giving me a strange look like you know you didn't know what i was talking about that i wasn't even looking at you i was looking across the room i thought you were talking about the uap hearing yeah ufo here why did they rename ufos for god's sake that's part of some kind of plot i think to keep ufos like secret like call them something else what what so what is it now unidentified aerial phenomenon is that what it is or uh yes yes yeah because ufo was wrong somehow unidentified flying it had to use i don't know are they walking objects now i mean do they are they in the air or not where are they um it's just that they wanted to broaden it so that it wasn't specifically aeronautical vehicles because some of the stuff is theorized to to be um not necessarily spacecraft or a flying vehicle some of it is stuff that's capable of being submerged and so they want all the domains of space and water unidentified boats unidentified anything in any matter air or water so uh they just broadened it and uh it's actually really fascinating because this whistleblower they're basically uh people whistleblowing on uh the dod side and uh there's all these um sort of other groups like the the nasa-led group and it's uh it's it's a it's a paradox it's a very very bizarre uh fascinating bipartisan bipartisan hearing and it's very strange strange times i'd like to go to one of those hearings yeah but uh anyway i'm still not speaking to amtrak test your hearing definitely preserve your hearing okay that's that's that's uh good advice to end on thank you everybody for uh listening oth at 2600.com is our email address if there's anything you'd like to share with us we will be back next week is that is that the plan we're going to do this again next week okay and uh we'll have other things to talk about and we'll have overtime again hopefully with the online chat we'll see indeed we will uh return to that feature as soon as we have the capacity but please thank you please continue to and thanks so very much for listening tonight yes and uh let's all remember kevin let's all um try and um do things that he would find funny and um productive because that's the kind of person he was that's the kind of person he always was and um through us he will live on in one way or another all right see you next week good night