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And to my audience, think about what you've heard today and share it with the people around you. 
And the previous program was Economic Update with Professor Richard Wolfe. 
Heard Wednesdays at 6.30 p.m. 
here on WBAI New York, 99.5 FM and the WBAI.org online. 
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And stay tuned for Off the Hook. 
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Overtime follows at 8 p.m. 
with the ability to call us and convey anything that you wish to convey. 
But for now, we're going to update you on various things going on in the world of technology and hackers and various other developments. 
I guess this was inevitable that this would happen. 
It's a scandal. 
Of course it's a scandal. 
What did they expect? 
You might have heard the name Drew Ortiz. 
You know that name, Kyle? 
No? 
He was a writer at Sports Illustrated. 
I say was because he's no longer a writer at Sports Illustrated. 
But if you were lucky enough to read one of Drew's articles, may I ask what is going on out there? 
Is that your door, Rob? 
That is our front door, and Gila is on her way in here. 
Sounds like someone stepped on a cat. 
Wow. 
We have this door on loan from the Addams family. 
All right. 
Well, you threw me way off. 
Let me just recover from this. 
Okay. 
I'm trying to set a tone here for Drew Ortiz because I want to talk about him. 
All right? 
I know it's a little controversial, but I'd like to talk about Drew. 
This is the bio you might have read had you read one of Drew's articles. 
While he was a writer over at Sports Illustrated, Drew has spent much of his life outdoors and is excited to guide you through his never-ending list of the best products to keep you from falling to the perils of nature. 
Nowadays, there is rarely a weekend that goes by where Drew isn't out camping, hiking, or just back on his parents' farm. 
Now, why, you might ask, is Drew no longer writing for Sports Illustrated? 
Well, sadly, Drew isn't doing a whole lot of much these days because, how do I say this? 
Drew never existed. 
Drew was not human. 
Drew was not, period. 
He was a figment of artificial intelligence. 
And come on, we all knew this was going to happen at some point. 
He was an AI-generated author published by Sports Illustrated, according to a person involved with the creation of the content who asked to be kept anonymous for some reason, or maybe that's a bit of AI as well. 
But this really is kind of stunning. 
Yeah, there was a photo of a person at the bottom of the page that was allegedly Drew. 
But that particular photo was actually a photo that you could buy as a headshot. 
I think there was a description. 
I'll try to track down the description of what that person was. 
But yeah, they had somebody writing stories. 
They had artificial intelligence writing stories. 
The content is absolutely AI-generated, said a second source, no matter how much they say that it's not. 
Now, various journalists have reached out to Sports Illustrated, which is owned by the Arena Group. 
All the AI-generated authors disappeared from Sports Illustrated's site without explanation. 
In fact, there's more than one, apparently. 
Now, the writing often sounds like it was written by an alien. 
One of Drew's articles, for instance, warns that volleyball can be a little tricky to get into, especially without an actual ball to practice with. 
Well, yeah, that's true. 
But why would you say it like that? 
So, yeah, Sports Illustrated. 
Did they think they could get away with it? 
Did they think nobody would notice? 
Did they think that this was a good idea? 
It marks a staggering fall from grace for Sports Illustrated, which in past decades won numerous national magazine awards for its sports journalism and published work by literary giants, ranging from William Faulkner to John Updike. 
Really? 
In Sports Illustrated? 
I had no idea. 
Well, the article I'm reading from comes from futurism.com, and it's quite a read. 
I assume this was written by a human, too. 
And it wasn't just author profiles that the magazine repeatedly replaced. 
Each time an author was switched out, the post they supposedly penned would be reattributed to a new persona with no editor's note explaining the change in byline. 
None of the articles... 
It's like... 
This is some kind of dystopian nightmare I'm reading here. 
None of the articles credited to Ortiz or the other names contain any disclosure about the use of AI or that the writer wasn't real, though they did eventually gain a disclaimer explaining that the content was created by a third party and that the Sports Illustrated editorial staff are not involved in the creation of this content. 
Oh, but I think they were. 
Maybe not the editorial staff, but somebody at Sports Illustrated certainly was involved in this. 
Rob? 
You mentioned the profile picture for Drew Ortiz, and that also is a picture of someone who does not exist. 
It is for sale on a website called Generated.Photos, which sells AI-generated photos of people who don't exist for people who want a picture of a person for whatever reason. 
Maybe you're making an ad or something, and you want a picture of a person, but you don't want to pay an actual model. 
You don't want to get personality rights to an actual model. 
You just generate a face of a person who doesn't exist. 
And Drew Ortiz and his non-existent compatriots who were also writing for Sports Illustrated, very many of them, their faces were for sale on this website. 
Drew Ortiz was for sale on a page which describes the photo as neutral white young adult male with short brown hair and blue eyes, and if you know Drew Ortiz, that's him all over. 
So yeah, not only did the work not exist or the worker, the writer not exist, but their faces didn't exist either. 
That is simply incredible. 
I don't know. 
Now, Rob, you found this story. 
Has there been much in the way of fallout from this? 
It doesn't really seem like it. 
After Futurism published this story, a spokesperson from Arena Group provided a statement that said they blamed a contractor. 
And even then, they didn't admit that this was AI-generated content. 
They just said, oh, someone was writing this under pseudonyms, under pen names, which we don't allow. 
And so they were playing like that was the problem with the content rather than the fact that it was not written by a person. 
However, I just was searching, you know, Sports Illustrated AI, and apparently there was a huge staff meeting yesterday that did not go well. 
There's a lot of fallout about this. 
And the owners, who apparently also own Parade Magazine, which, you know, if I'm looking for good journalism, I'm going to Parade Magazine. 
And nothing is looking good here, I have to say. 
And executives said, I'm not reading for the Washington Post, executives said that it was a one-time mistake with an AI company, and they had already broken off their relationship with Advan before the Futurism story was published. 
And this is such a mess. 
People say AI is the future. 
I think the future looks a lot like a car crash, if that's the case. 
Well, yeah, but the thing is, you can't blame AI for this. 
Blame the humans for doing it. 
Who thought this was a good idea to just inject an AI author into Sports Illustrated and assume nobody was going to notice? 
It seems like something they were doing for the website, and it's a divergent sort of management choice to profit off of traffic, right? 
Yeah. 
And so they're saying that Advan assured us that all the articles in question were written and edited by humans. 
What about the volleyball story? 
I mean, you know, gems like that. 
Volleyball is challenging if you don't have a ball. 
Yeah, where would I go to get that kind of information? 
It's just smacks of the type of practices where there are various conglomerates or interest groups that are buying a lot of these media outlets and not actually managing them. 
They're managing them for a profit and implementing things like this, where you don't have to have the kind of overhead and just shrinking the institution and riding off of the name recognition. 
People might associate some of those authors with the magazine, but this isn't the same kind of content. 
They're just sort of using the kind of interest the magazine generates to get people to spend time with these kinds of articles. 
Yes, Rob. 
And Arena Group has been doing this before. 
They got caught back in February publishing AI-generated health advice at the magazine Men's Journal. 
And Futurism, the site, also reported on that and finding that its first story was riddled with errors, and that was about health information. 
So the magazine had to put out a massive correction about it. 
And when you're dealing with something like sports things and obscure stuff about volleyball or whatever, maybe it's not a life-or-death thing. 
But if you're putting forth what you claim is health info and it's written by robots that don't know anything about humans, that's dangerous. 
Absolutely. 
Absolutely. 
And you have to wonder, I mean, we've had Bard on the show a couple of times. 
Bard is out tonight, too, by the way, has other engagements. 
But we've always let people know when artificial intelligence is speaking to us. 
We don't try and pass it off as one of us or somebody, you know, if we do, it's in good fun. 
But we don't try and replace one of us with artificial intelligence. 
Right, Kyle? 
Yeah, no, we wouldn't. 
Yeah. 
By the way, we let CoPilot hang out, but it's not allowed to speak. 
Yeah, it's muted. 
Well, it can't. 
Yeah, so I don't know. 
These are just such bad ideas. 
What do we do now? 
Do we have some kind of way of detecting this? 
Are we on the lookout for every single publication now to see if somebody is using this technology as a lazy way to get around using humans? 
I think the only weapon against this is trying to teach people sort of the reading comprehension skills that it would take to read the AI-generated content and recognize it as low-quality nonsense. 
In a sense, that's not really saying anything. 
But that, I think, is – I would like to hope that we can have a world in which that is the norm, maybe people being educated in schools about this sort of thing, media literacy being at the forefront of education. 
But I don't know how much I can hope. 
All of these things that you listed are things that we've been trying to get people to do for decades. 
And there's always some kind of resistance against becoming more literate and, you know, more educated and all of that. 
And now we're seeing the results where, okay, if you won't write, this computer will do it, this artificial intelligence will do it, and we'll be seen as human. 
And God knows what will happen to the rest of us. 
It's also just the sheer greed behind it because there are tons of writers out there who would love to get a byline in something like Sports Illustrated or even Sports Illustrated.com. 
Not anymore. 
I wouldn't. 
No, maybe not. 
But, like, there are people who would write for less than they're worth. 
There are so many writers out there struggling for jobs, struggling for work, and instead they're going to give it to a robot who can do it for a few cents' worth of electricity. 
And the product is crap, but does that matter anymore? 
Yes, Gila. 
I think there's also something to be said about the kind of injection of capitalism and everything needing to be entrepreneurial, producing in this way. 
I found a different article talking about other places that have done this, right? 
CI did it this past winter. 
Excuse me. 
Let me try that again. 
CNET did it this past winter. 
Or Gannett newspapers tried to do something this summer where they had AI writing articles about high school sports. 
Oh, that must have been a real nightmare. 
Apparently it was an utter disaster. 
Probably invented students that didn't exist, I'll bet. 
Sports that didn't exist, maybe. 
Absolute mess. 
But, you know, people are saying if you're more upfront about admitting that AI is part of it, I think that's huge. 
You know, be clear. 
But also, if, you know, Sports Illustrated, which was a bastion of not just sports journalism, but journalism, it had wonderful writing. 
And, you know, since Time Inc. 
went under and it was sold off for parts and now it's a monthly magazine and a website and people are – the arena group, I think, is really trying to trade on the goodwill of people remembering what Sports Illustrated was and they're just trying to pump out content. 
You know, when everything – we talked about this before. 
I remember when I was like, oh, the ring doorbells, if Amazon wants streaming content, they should just license the ring doorbell stuff because that's what we're leading to. 
Everything doesn't need to be a content machine. 
And I think that the idea that content needs to be always, always, always has led to – like, people can't necessarily maintain that kind of schedule. 
And I think that recognizing the humanity in who we are and what we do is maybe the only way to push back against AI in certain situations. 
Yeah, well, we're going to keep an eye on this for sure. 
Boy, what a nightmare and funny but tragic at the same time. 
So we'll certainly be filling people in. 
Also, a story we reported on last week that we have some updates on. 
That was the terrible fire that took place out east at Wardenclyffe, the Tesla Science Center out in Shoreham, Long Island. 
It was hit by a fire on the eve of Thanksgiving, and it's – still recovery is in process. 
We have on the phone with us right now, actually, the executive director over at the Tesla Science Center, Mark Alessi. 
Mark, are you there? 
I'm here. 
Thank you for having me on. 
Our greatest condolences for having this happen, and we're just thankful that nobody was seriously injured. 
I understand one fireman broke his hand and is recovering, but nobody else was injured. 
And, of course, great thanks to the Rocky Point Fire Department and all the other ones that responded. 
I believe the Shoreham Fire Department probably, and can you tell us – go ahead. 
There were 11 departments altogether and close to 200 firefighters that battled the fire throughout the night. 
You know, they came at 4.30 p.m. 
They headed out by midnight, but unfortunately, you know, we couldn't go into the building. 
You know, it was unstable already, and so there was embers that lit up again. 
It lit up again at 2.30. 
They came back. 
It lit up again at 7.30. 
They came back, and then finally it was out. 
But they just fought throughout the entire night and into the morning until the fire was finally out. 
Wow. 
Any idea how something like this happened? 
No, it's under investigation. 
I mean, obviously, the best news that came back was it wasn't intentional. 
It wasn't arson. 
It's, you know, our mind did go there that it was a possibility. 
And luckily, from where they think it started, it's not indicative of somebody doing it on purpose. 
So – but they're still investigating the exact cause. 
All right. 
We'll cross Thomas Edison off the list, then, of suspects. 
Oh, that's right. 
Okay, so, obviously, we have to rebuild. 
First of all, what was lost? 
I read something that filled me with hope that nothing priceless as far as notes and historical relics were lost. 
Is that correct? 
That's right. 
There's nothing being stored in the building. 
So, we, you know, we've been preparing to do work in the lab building. 
We're currently doing demolition on site to free up the lab building. 
And so, it's been an abandoned building for decades. 
And there was nothing in there of, you know, like archives or anything like that. 
But what was lost, a good part of the building, you know, so the building's still standing. 
The core of it is built by brick. 
You know, it was designed by Stanford White, famed New York City architect, not the turn of the 20th century, one of Tesla's best friends. 
It was built right. 
Bricks are really strong. 
It withstood the fire. 
But, you know, bricks are obviously fireproof. 
But there was a lot of, you know, antique woodwork inside, steel girders that we were planning on reusing that were historic to Tesla's time. 
All that's gone. 
The entire roof is gone. 
And, you know, now our emergency is trying to protect it against the elements because now that the weather's getting colder, if water gets, you know, into some of the crevices of the brick and then freezes, that becomes problematic. 
Yeah, absolutely. 
Well, I understand there's a new crowdfunding campaign underway, and the goal is $3 million. 
Is that right? 
That's right. 
You know, the history of this organization, it was a small community group that wanted to save this world historic site. 
And we ended up doing a crowdfund, you know, over 10 years ago with Matt Inman from Oatmeal.com. 
And it set a world record at the time on Indiegogo. 
We raised $1.4 million, six weeks, 108 countries, 33,000 donors. 
And we never fathomed that we would have to go back to the crowd again. 
You know, we were doing, you know, more typical philanthropic fundraising to try to finish the lab. 
But with this fire, one, it's a necessity, but two, we were hearing from, you know, our supporters from around the world that they wanted to help. 
So, we launched crowdfund number two, and this is to get us at least back to where we were, you know, a week ago, where we were in a pretty good spot in terms of funding and construction. 
But we still have $6 million more to raise on a $20 million project. 
Now, this is about $3 million in damages. 
So, we now have to raise $9 million to finish the project. 
But the crowdfund is just trying to get us back to where we were a week ago. 
Wow. 
That is staggering and quite a challenge. 
But as you said, you met the challenge before. 
You have support from all around the world. 
I think right now the challenge is getting the word out to all those people. 
Is it possible that the news hasn't spread yet of the challenges you're facing? 
Well, there's still, you know, I still get e-mails and phone calls as people are still, you know, it's actually interesting to watch consumption of news cycles. 
You know, we're a week out, and some people, even in, you know, my region here, you know, on Long Island or the New York metro area are just hearing about it. 
So, I have a little bit more of the respect for the need to continue to get that message out for, you know, for quite some time to make sure it resonates. 
Well, let's get the info out to anybody who might be listening to this and is only here for a few minutes. 
How do people get to that crowdfunding site? 
So, there's two ways. 
If you're familiar with Indiegogo, it's launched on the Indiegogo platform. 
That's where, historically, where we did our first crowdfund. 
And if you want to just go to our website, teslasciencecenter.org, all the information is there to get involved. 
Hi, I would just like to ask if you could describe some of the plans for the ultimate restoration that were originally in place. 
I know that you were basically changing some of the structure, but can you just describe what was the vision prior to this and what you're trying to get back to as a baseline? 
So, you know, the overall vision is to restore Tesla's historic lab and open it as a museum and science center. 
The lab building itself is the crown jewel of the property. 
It's a 16-acre property. 
He originally had 200 acres, but little by little it was sold off after he left the property. 
There's about 100,000 square feet of other derelict industrial buildings on site, some of which are, you know, abutting up to the lab. 
And that's what we're, you know, in the process of demolishing so we can get to the lab building to do the historic restoration. 
But we know that we might need other buildings on site down the road. 
And our goal is to not only celebrate the past and just tell Tesla's story, but we want to celebrate the innovator that he was. 
This was somebody that believed in innovation for the improvement of humanity and wasn't concerned about money necessarily. 
And there's a lot of stories around that. 
And he gave up fortunes to try to make sure that we had access to all the same current electricity. 
And so we want to celebrate that creative spark and try to inspire others to, you know, be inventors, but for the right reasons. 
And so we'll celebrate the past. 
We'll explain the present. 
And we'll try to give a view into the future on the site. 
Now, we've been to a number of events at the site out in Shoreham, and we're always amazed by the strong response, particularly among young people. 
A lot of kids are very interested in this. 
What do you attribute that to? 
Why are kids so interested in Nikola Tesla? 
So, I mean, one, I think that creative spark inspires kids, whether it's Tesla or other inventors. 
There's actually data that suggests, and you can just try it on your own. 
Ask a five-year-old going into kindergarten what they want to be when they grow up. 
It's usually four jobs, and one of them is definitely they're inventing something to solve a problem. 
And by the time they hit junior high, that number goes from 95% down to 8%. 
And it's because many kids aren't exposed to, you know, those elements and those tools. 
When they come to a site like ours, we nurture that creative spark, and it's something that they really gravitate towards. 
And that's why a center like this is so important. 
95% to 8% in that short period of time? 
That is staggering. 
Yeah. 
It's a big drop-off. 
I so identify, and I hear what you're saying with that, and I'm glad that you're pointing that out because it is something that it becomes cloistered or private and something that's a process that we commodify in different institutions. 
And sharing knowledge is something we're all about here. 
We like people to explain things and to try to get complex ideas out there so that a lot more people understand them. 
And this is an area where education and the real world and various things that aren't that well understood sort of collide. 
So we're just really happy that you're doing this. 
Thank you so much. 
Now, you guys were at the HOPE Conference last year, and people still talk about your presence there. 
And I hope that we're able to do something again next year when we have our next HOPE Conference. 
In fact, we're having it the weekend of Nikola Tesla's birthday, which is kind of interesting. 
So it's in July next year? 
Yeah, July 12th through 14th at St. 
John's University. 
So maybe we can do something in collaboration. 
I really would like that or definitely do something to help you guys because… Well, we love the HOPE Conference. 
Uh, that's definitely our crowd and, uh, definitely want to be there and maybe we could do something around Tesla's birthday. 
Uh, yeah, we'd love to collaborate on that. 
Absolutely. 
Okay, great. 
Uh, Mark, any, anything else you want to share with our listeners? 
No, I would just say, listen, this was, this is an amazing project. 
It was a very dark week for us. 
And really what got the staff, the board, and, and, and some of our core volunteers through was the outpouring of support. 
You know, not, not only through the crowdfund, but people reaching out, letting us know how much this, this, this project means to them is giving us the energy to carry on. 
And so I just want to thank everyone that's, uh, that's been, that's been reaching out and, and cares about this site. 
Mark, could you give us the contact info and the URL for, uh, the Science Center? 
It is, uh, TeslaScienceCenter.org. 
Okay, and that goes directly to the crowdsource, uh, the crowdfunding? 
Uh, it's, it's, it's not direct, but it's on that homepage that you click the link. 
Got it. 
And, uh, if, if you're out there listening, uh, and, and you're able to contribute, great. 
If you're not, please spread the word so that more people can find out about this throughout the planet. 
Uh, it's, um, it's, it's hugely important. 
And what you guys are doing is, is such good work. 
It really needs to be supported and built. 
And I can hardly wait for the day when, when it's done, when it's ready. 
You know, what, uh, welcoming you on site. 
How do you, how do you see that day? 
What, what, what do you think will be happening? 
All the buildings will be. 
It is going to be one, one hell of a celebration. 
So our goal is, is still to open the first building, uh, which is a smaller building on site, just so that we could be open every day to anybody that wants to visit and get a little taste of what this site is going to be. 
It's kind of the appetizer. 
And our goal has been to finish the lab building by the end of 2025. 
We knew it was going to take a long time just because it's a major historic restoration. 
But, uh, obviously we're reassessing how far this damage is going to put us behind schedule. 
I'm hoping it's not too, you know, not too much of a disruption. 
Um, and so our goal is still to try to get done by the end of 2025 and be able to welcome people into the lab building. 
I'm sure, uh, Nikola Tesla himself had some dramatic setbacks in his pursuits. 
And, uh, perhaps this is a parallel of sorts. 
He had, he actually had fires in his labs in New York city that set him back. 
One in particular, one on Houston street, Houston street, I'm sorry. 
Um, and, uh, so we, we drew a lot of parallels to the struggles he had even before this fire. 
I've traveled the world trying to raise money for Wardenclyffe, just like he did. 
Wow. 
And, uh, you, you were one of the key people involved in getting this off the ground as well, if I'm not mistaken. 
I was involved very early. 
Um, we, we had a driving force in our original board president, uh, Jane Alcorn. 
She's still involved. 
Uh, she's the one that pulled me in. 
I was in the state legislature at the time. 
I consider myself a tech entrepreneur. 
I have to, uh, I hope I'm not embarrassing myself when I say at that time, I didn't know who Nikola Tesla was. 
I had to be educated, but once I knew the impact he had on our lives, I became an evangelist and I could never shake this project. 
I had to be involved. 
Well, there are so many people right now who do not know Nikola Tesla is, and they're going to learn it through your organization, through, through the amazing center that you guys are going to be building. 
Thank you. 
All right. 
Thank you so much for joining us, Mark. 
And, um, best of luck. 
We'll continue to keep people updated. 
Uh, we'll talk about hope. 
We'll talk about the future. 
Thank you so much. 
All right. 
Take care. 
Good night. 
Bye. 
Mark, let's say the, um, executive director of the Tesla Science Center out in Shoreham, Long Island, who were hit by a massive fire last week and are rebuilding. 
And, um, fortunately, fortunately, uh, nobody, uh, was, was, uh, seriously injured and, um, and nothing irreplaceable was, was, was lost. 
Uh, but buildings were damaged and things will have to be, um, fixed. 
Go ahead, Rob. 
Yeah. 
Um, I just want to encourage folks, uh, if you're looking straight for the crowdfunding campaign to, to help with the rebuilding efforts, you can go to Indiegogo.com and just search Tesla fire and it comes right up and, uh, you can see where it is now and how much more help they need. 
And, uh, and yeah, all the info you need is there. 
I'm just really glad they're, um, forging ahead and that this, this was saved in the first place through the public's efforts, through the public's interests worldwide. 
If this, if this hadn't, uh, had so much support early on, it would be some lost commercial property and not something that is being preserved that is, um, still somewhat natural. 
There's still trees there. 
If you ever get a chance to visit, uh, it's, it's really in a, a spectacular place. 
They host a lot of events often at nighttime. 
You can see stars. 
I think, you know, we've seen like the space station. 
We saw the space station. 
We were there once. 
We saw the space station. 
Everyone was transfixed on the Tesla, giant Tesla. 
We were trying to get people's attention saying, Hey, look at the space station, but everybody was, was fixated on the Tesla coil. 
And you know, that's understandable. 
It really is awesome, but it's there. 
And people will be able to have more access to it in the future. 
So just, I want to, um, uh, emphasize the incremental steps and all these little things, they end up becoming, yeah, small problems along the way, but that they're there in the first place is such a gift that we've given to ourselves. 
I remember showing you the place, uh, years ago, maybe it was about 10 years ago, maybe more. 
Uh, and, uh, back then, uh, there was just this, this wish that the Tesla science center could be resurrected. 
Um, and, uh, it was, um, I believe it was a, a, a photography, um, uh, factory or something. 
Yes, it was, uh, um, Kodak or one of those companies. 
I want to say, uh, Fuji. 
Okay. 
Well, whatever they, they, uh, you know, they had their thing, they abandoned it. 
Uh, and, and there was, there was this, um, uh, just a guard that was watching the property at night. 
And I found in, um, uh, in, in, in the woods, a notebook that one of those guards had written. 
And it literally, it was like something straight out of the shining. 
It just, every hour it would say, uh, uh, eight o'clock and no activity, nine o'clock, no activity and pages and pages and pages of no activity. 
It was really kind of spooky and I have it somewhere. 
So that'll go up on eBay. 
That, that artifact has been saved. 
Yes. 
But yeah, future, uh, I, I, I think there's a bright future ahead and, um, uh, look forward to the challenge. 
I just love the idea. 
It's going to be standalone building that, that people can, can help to, to this moment and it's needed. 
And, uh, the, the, the vision of this interpretive center is going to live on. 
Well, uh, if you want to write to us, our email address is OTH at 2600.com. 
We're off the hook. 
We're on the air every Wednesday from seven to 8 PM. 
Not next Wednesday though, taking a week off next Wednesday, uh, Overtime follows at 8 PM. 
That's where you get a chance to call us and, um, um, be part of the chat on YouTube. 
Uh, follow the link that's over on the 2600.com webpage, or just go to channel 2600 on YouTube and you'll find us that way. 
Here's a letter that we got from somebody who wrote in a long time listener from over in the UK. 
Thanks for keeping it going, but more so thanks for letting Ron and Mary take the full time on the show last week. 
Uh, we're talking about the, um, uh, the, the couple in, um, in Wisconsin that, uh, own 50,000 phones and are looking to unload them. 
Uh, and, uh, have quite a story and it was, it was just fascinating. 
Took up the entire hour easily. 
Um, continuing with the letter here, uh, telling their story without interruption, uh, holding your questions must've been hard. 
Well, yeah, we were waiting for Ron to take a breath. 
He just has so much to say, uh, sharing such love and interest with Ron and Mary on our behalf. 
Best episode ever. 
Uh, and, uh, please keep checking in on them. 
Um, um, Tyeth, uh, continues with saying, uh, maybe we've got some other listeners who would volunteer to assist their operation, uh, purely for the stories and antique curiosities, along with saving a few pieces of history, uh, sadly a bit far for me. 
Yes. 
Being in the UK, I guess, uh, it is a bit far, but worth it, worth it. 
If you, if you, uh, hop on over and check out the place, uh, but yes, Funko, uh, Inc was the company and, uh, I think Funko Inc.com is the, uh, website and, um, the website itself. 
Wow. 
Uh, looks like it's from the early nineties, but it works. 
All right. 
It works and it's great. 
So, uh, yeah, that's just another, another episode of off the hook that people seem to enjoy. 
Absolutely. 
It was, it was just, uh, it was wonderful to be able to talk with him and it's, uh, all these, all these efforts by people who have these sort of niche projects going on that, uh, you know, they might not even have the first, uh, inkling of how much interest there actually would be from people out there. 
And the ability to get that word out is something that I really treasure about, uh, producing the show with you guys. 
And it's, uh, it's, it's a privilege to be able to help, uh, make it happen. 
It was a great episode. 
Did you want to tell the story about the, the street view image of, of their building? 
Uh, well, no, actually, um, uh, we, we, uh, we tweeted this. 
Did you get, you captured it? 
It's, it's hard though with, with the way Twitter is now. 
Uh, I was hoping the, the image would show up and it does just a link. 
So you have to click on the link to see it. 
Okay. 
But if you use street view and you find their, their location in, uh, was it Galesville, Wisconsin? 
Okay. 
Um, and, uh, you find the, the phone code building, uh, you'll, you'll see an impressive looking building in a town. 
Uh, and, um, part of that building is a pay phone where the, the receiver is just dangling. 
And it's the best, it's the best picture on street view I think I've ever seen. 
And just so perfect. 
Particularly if you see and, uh, have edited a whole lot of pay phone photos over the years, uh, definitely our, our hearts warmed at the sight of, uh, an off hook pay phone. 
Now there was an article in the times, uh, this past week, uh, about the, uh, NYPD and how they're upgrading their, their radio system. 
Uh, you ever, you ever listened to, uh, police scanners? 
You ever listened to the, the cops, uh, responding to calls? 
It's interesting stuff. 
Yeah. 
Yeah. 
I've done that. 
I've spent many a night listening to things going on, uh, various, uh, how they talk to each other, how they respond, the codes that they use, the 10, four and 10, 20 and all that. 
They want you to stop doing that. 
And the reason they want, well, we'll get into the reason in a second, but the method they're using is encryption. 
They are encrypting the channel so that the public will not be able to tune in anymore. 
This is something that's going on all throughout the country. 
And, um, yeah, it's got a lot of people crying foul, uh, elected officials, civil rights people, just a hobbyist of all sorts, uh, because any kind of accountability goes out the window. 
Uh, if, if cops are talking to each other and nobody is able to, um, to monitor what it is actually saying or doing, uh, basically whatever they say will go. 
And that is extremely disturbing. 
And if you think how many times in the past, we've looked at logs of the conversation, thinking of the LA riots with Rodney King and all that, uh, I'm thinking of the, uh, RNC in New York city, um, those words, the things that they say, and many times they're inappropriate. 
Many times they're racist. 
Um, we need to know that. 
And to simply say that because of security, we don't want anybody to be able to hear what it is we're saying, what it is we're doing. 
That is extremely unhealthy. 
And what I don't get is I'm seeing all the opposition to this elected officials. 
Okay. 
All right. 
I like the officials and ones who make the laws. 
So, um, the NYPD and other police departments can simply do as they please without any accountability whatsoever, or can they maybe something changed? 
I don't know. 
Um, but this kind of a move is not inevitable. 
This is a choice and we're choosing not to do anything about it. 
If we don't try and stop it. 
Now they're spending $500 million on this new radio system that they call more reliable and secure. 
Yeah. 
It's secure for people trying not to be accountable. 
That's for sure. 
Uh, but we won't be able to listen anymore. 
And, you know, another group of people who are very upset by this are journalists because that's how they find out what's going on and where. 
Um, and the cops say, well, you don't need to know that. 
We'll tell you when something's going on. 
It just sounds really, really fishy. 
Yeah. 
This has a huge implication for the timeliness of, uh, spot news coverage and, uh, good reporting being on scene immediately, having, uh, information about what, what kind of hazards there are and how close you can get to the scene of something to actually capture activity that ordinarily would just be written up in some report that is critical and it just insulates and puts a delay on people getting timely insights into the kinds of things that are going on in the world and in different cities and parts of the country. 
Yeah. 
Um, police scanners and listening to police scanners that has been such a valuable tool for journalists, uh, news photographers, videographers, uh, people to get instant, uh, access to an information about, uh, things that are happening in real time. 
And, uh, the loss of that would be, um, tragic there, there was a, there was a note in this story, um, about the, about the issue in the New York times that, uh, says, um, ideas to increase transparency have been batted around like a broadcast delay where sensitive information is redacted before being broadcast publicly or a phone application that allows accredited reporters to listen in perhaps in real time. 
And, uh, so what they're trying to do is say, no, you still have access. 
We'll spoon feed you what we want to, to who we want to, rather than the public accountability that, that is, uh, provided by an open police scanner system. 
Well, let's talk about the, um, uh, the sensitive information that they wish to redact. 
What kind of information are we talking about? 
You know, when, when the NYPD can decide that for themselves, then, uh, I, I can't imagine that, uh, they would do anything untoward with, uh, that sort of power over what people get to hear about what they're doing. 
No, not at all. 
Not, what do they have to hide? 
Really? 
Well, that's, that's what I'm asking. 
What, what is it that they are saying that they, they want to hide? 
I'm, I'm reading here where, uh, it's, um, uh, names of witnesses, names of suspects, um, things like that. 
Okay. 
How do we, how do we counter that? 
Uh, people who are reporting, do they actually read their first and last name out over the radio? 
I, I never actually heard that, but if they do, well, then that's something that, um, would be publicly known anyway, uh, if there's a police record and if not, well, you know, there's other ways of communicating that information. 
They don't have to broadcast it. 
Yeah. 
I mean, ultimately this is, um, traffic of things that the police are saying to each other, to their, uh, stations and so on. 
They should be educated on what is appropriate to say or not over the airwaves. 
Um, we are, and you know, we make radio. 
There are things we can't say right now that that would get us in a lot of trouble. 
And we just don't say those things. 
Another more perhaps counterintuitive angle to this might be the false sense of security that the police then have, uh, on a system like this, because think about it. 
If it's all of a sudden off limits, the access to it increases in valuable and in value and becomes desirable for outsiders and so forth. 
So people are trading and stolen radios, whatever you can imagine trying to break this system. 
And, uh, it, I think then puts them in more at more risk than training to, um, be on a public airwave that is being monitored. 
And it should be a public airwave. 
That's, uh, that's absolutely what it should be because these are servants of the people. 
Uh, and we have to determine if they are serving our needs and, and, and be able to monitor what it is that they are doing. 
Now, uh, uh, the, the question of it being in real time or 30 minute delay, and I understand Chicago, uh, is implementing a 30 minute delay. 
Um, I mean, that's, that's less of an issue if people are able to hear everything that went over the radio, but now I'm hearing that they want to redact certain things. 
What is it that they're redacting? 
And, um, how do we know that that's, that's kosher, what they're redacting? 
Is it just people's names or is it, um, behavior of officers or something that they say we're not allowed to know, but we don't even know what it is. 
We're not allowed to know. 
Um, we've seen this abuse so many times in the past that it's very, very hard to just simply say, yeah, we're going to trust you to do the right thing here without any kind of oversight whatsoever. 
The question is, is it too late? 
Can anything be done about this? 
It seems like it's inevitable because, uh, I'm reading this is happening all throughout the country in California. 
Uh, there actually was a law that, uh, said this had to be done, uh, to protect, um, um, uh, a 2020 state mandate, uh, to protect the names of victims and witnesses, uh, spoken over the airwaves. 
But again, this is something that's been going on for decades. 
Is how come it's suddenly an issue right now when the technology exists to hide the communications from everybody just seems a little, a little strange. 
It does. 
And Mayor Adams, uh, himself, a cop, uh, um, in July at a news conference, he said that the, he said that part of the reasoning behind this is that quote, bad guys listen to the radios too. 
And, uh, he says, I have to make sure that bad guys don't continue to be one up on us. 
Well, bad guys can continue to listen to the radio. 
I mean, bad guys watch television, bad guys, read books, bad guys do all kinds of things. 
The fact is listening to the radio of cops, uh, talking about what they're doing. 
That's not something that was supposed to only be confined to people pure of heart. 
All right, so, um, so by defining it as something that's a security issue, well, what's next? 
You know, it's having, having, uh, badge numbers displayed. 
Well, you could identify a cop with a badge number. 
That's a security issue. 
So cover those up. 
Maybe the, the license plates as well. 
So you won't know what car is responding. 
Well, you don't want to be able to identify a particular person. 
So, you know, for their safety, cover that up too. 
Before you know it, there's no information out there. 
And the modern NYPD is already struggling with the systems that are supposed to be in place for accountability on the cops wear body cameras, but those recordings are, you know, mysteriously disappearing on a routine basis, um, or held back from a public view, um, just for whatever reasons. 
And, uh, you know, things like you do see cops at like protests and things with tape over their badge numbers. 
And the NYPD has long had this culture of, well, we're not accountable to anyone but ourselves. 
And according to ourselves, we're doing fine. 
And one of the tools we have to fight back against that is definitely something that they want to try and control. 
Isn't it funny how they have all the resources and all the technology and permission to record the, to, to record the public. 
But when it comes to body cameras, recording their activities or people, um, that might consider them being bad guys on these encrypted channels, you know, maybe they're the bad, bad actors and, and to further insulate them, this kind of thing without the kind of oversight we're talking about will lead to even more bad behavior or at least incentivize, uh, the lack, the behavior because there is a lack of consequences. 
So it's, it's, it's very funny to me how it's so, so easy to feel like robot dogs and all these, all these things they want to, uh, watch and, and, uh, understand and, and, and interpret and, and, um, analyze that that's fine. 
But the slightest bit of scrutiny from the public, uh, is, is somehow an affront to their, to their, um, timid, uh, uh, uh, police sensibilities. 
I, you've got to give me a break. 
It's so silly to, to expect people to take this seriously. 
It's not an argument. 
What I'm curious about though, is when we do figure out the encryption and crack it, which we will do and share the information with people, what kind of a crime is that going to be, because basically what we're doing is just listening to the radio, like we've been doing for decades, but it's going to be, uh, deemed some kind of horrible, uh, security breach that we're responsible for. 
So people will go to prison for listening to radios of cops. 
That's going to happen. 
That's the world where we're setting up. 
And, and Pete, I mean, if you push people in such a way that you're going to allow that all of this in, in equity, in injustice. 
And so it's, it's going to push people to basically make these systems so costly that you can't implement it because once that's broken, well, you got to fix it. 
You got to change the scheme. 
You got to do this or do the, the other thing, invest more money. 
And then that, that system gets broken and it just turns into an arms race. 
Well, it's okay. 
We're paying the bill. 
So, right. 
They'll just keep, keep, keep, uh, passing the costs along, but it in itself will functionally be challenged if it, if it's wielded in a way that abuses people. 
That's right. 
That's right. 
Hey, we're out of time. 
OTH at 2600.com is our email address. 
Please write to us. 
Uh, please also support the radio station here at WBAI. 
Go to give to WBAI.org, give the number to WBAI.org and pledge what you can to keep WBAI on the air. 
Remember to visit Tesla Science Center, help those guys out. 
Um, TeslaScienceCenter.org, help recover from the, uh, the horrible fire that took place last week. 
Um, Rob, I believe there are meetings this, this Friday come out. 
Yep. 
Uh, 2600 meetings are all over the world. 
Uh, this Friday, check 2600.com slash meetings to find one near you or start your own here in New York. 
We'll be at the Citigroup Center on 53rd and Lexington. 
Um, all right, OTH at 2600.com email address again, and, um, stay tuned in about eight minutes. 
We'll be on YouTube channel 2600 with over time. 
You can follow the link that's on the 2600.com webpage, or you can, uh, simply go to channel 2600 over on YouTube. 
We'll see you in two weeks here on WBAI and stay tuned to 99.5 FM for all kinds of other thought-provoking programming. 
Good night. 
And welcome everybody to Off the Hook Overtime here on YouTube. 
Do I have to say that? 
People know they're on YouTube. 
I mean, how would you not? 
I made it. 
Kyle, you made it? 
I made it. 
Yeah. 
Rob, Gila, you there? 
We are. 
We are here. 
And we're on YouTube, actually? 
Still waiting for the delay to catch up with us. 
Ah, there we go. 
We are on YouTube. 
Yeah, so lagged. 
Gila, sounds like you have something to say. 
We do lag a little bit. 
Yes, just a friendly reminder. 
Overtime exists on YouTube. 
The chat is a companion piece to Overtime and does not start until the Overtime show does. 
Repeated infractions of this rule will get you banned from the chat. 
Wait, wait, wait. 
How do you make an infraction of that rule? 
The chat exists? 
Because you're telling us now the chat exists outside of Overtime, even though it's not supposed to. 
Correct. 
So the chat box exists even before the video goes live. 
Huh. 
So, yes. 
As a friendly reminder, if the video is not live, please don't be chatting. 
Thanks. 
So, now I'm curious. 
When can you start chatting then? 
When does it begin? 
Or is it always? 
So, it's always there. 
But one of the guidelines we've been trying to abide by is please don't chat until the show is live. 
So, now, okay, I'm sorry. 
I'm just really fascinated by this because I don't do this kind of thing very often. 
When we stop, right, when we turn the lights off tonight, can people still chat well into the morning and forever? 
Now, that I don't know because I tend not to look, but I think that once we stop, it goes away. 
I believe that's the case, yes. 
Okay, so if it goes away – wait, this is like the mysteries of life here. 
So, it goes away at the end. 
It's going to be philosophical, yes. 
But what happens before the beginning? 
So, I think what will happen is that when somebody replays this in two days, when the live chat is synced, it will just – I don't know if it will appear or it will be gone or it will just, like, be in the chat as kind of a pre-roll. 
Fascinating. 
Bobcat says, screw rules and rulers. 
Friendly reminder that live chat is a privilege. 
Whenever you say friendly reminder, it kind of sends chills up my spine because – As well it should. 
Sorry. 
I used to be a classroom teacher. 
The reminder is friendly, but the enforcement is not going to be friendly. 
You know – We got off on a bad foot. 
We got off on a bad foot this overtime. 
I am laughing, but I'm doubling down on empowering you as the moderator and senior official there. 
And basically, let's keep the pre-chat extra light, I think. 
Like, almost invisible. 
This is why I'm not on the chat. 
I'm afraid of the chat. 
But I think this is generally hard to police in practice. 
And it's mostly the Google network showing off because I presume – well, I guess it's also non-logged-in people. 
But whatever the case, it's not going to get answered. 
And maybe this is it. 
But questions asked before then just don't really get considered as much. 
And I'm assuming that's already the practice, right? 
Right. 
I mean, that's definitely part of it. 
And I think the key is we just want to make sure that people are not getting in there when we're not monitoring. 
Because they might say something untoward or – Right. 
And the monitoring does not happen in the same way until overtime goes live. 
Interesting. 
That's all. 
All right. 
Yeah. 
Because, you know, we've got other stuff going on. 
Let's go – yeah, go easy on us and the moderator. 
So Gila can't be bothered to monitor when the show is not on the air at all times. 
All right. 
I see. 
I see how it is. 
Yet. 
Yeah. 
Maybe we can get artificial intelligence. 
I'm just saying that moderation bot that is unleashed by Gila in the future, just watch out. 
When Bard gets back from his cruise, maybe we can ask him if he's wanting to take this on as well. 
Well, all right. 
Can I read a serious story? 
Because I've been trying to read a serious story. 
It seems like we lapse into silliness way too often. 
And I don't want to do that. 
Some of us are trying to have a good time. 
Wipe that smirk off your face, Kyle. 
All right. 
I want to read something from the National Review, if that's okay. 
National Review, with respect to conservative magazine, one of the few we have left in this country. 
All right, then. 
All right, from National Review, dated today, actually, November 29th, Gay Furry Hackers Breach U.S. 
Nuclear Research Facility. 
All right. 
I've tried to do a serious show here, and I can't even read a headline without people making it into something silly. 
This is a big deal. 
This was not you. 
It's U.S. 
Nuclear Research Facility. 
What's funny about that? 
Gay Furry Hackers. 
What's funny about that? 
That's not funny. 
So, you went into it with this, like, very—so, Rob over here thought this would be a very good time to have a sip of seltzer. 
Every time. 
Every time, Rob. 
And then you very—you intoned Gay Furry Hackers, and Rob almost spat out the seltzer. 
That is why I started laughing. 
Do carry on, though. 
You think there's something funny about Gay Furry Hackers? 
That's amusing to you. 
Gay Furry Hackers? 
That's not the funny part. 
That's a legitimate, serious name. 
That's not the funny part. 
The U.S. 
Nuclear Research Facility? 
You find that funny? 
Yeah, it's hilarious. 
Oh, boy. 
We have a lot of work to do. 
Okay. 
Let me try and get through this. 
All right. 
Sieged Security, which describes itself as a group of Gay Furry Hackers, recently infiltrated a leading U.S. 
nuclear research facility and obtained sensitive personal data. 
The group claimed responsibility for the attack in statements on public forums. 
And this is a quote. 
Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow. 
The group wrote. 
That's from National Review. 
Not National Lampoon. 
National Review. 
I'm so sorry. 
No, I'm reading this from that. 
In fact, I will go out and buy a physical copy of the magazine just so I can open it up and read that quote again. 
You know, see it in print. 
Meow, meow, meow. 
Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow. 
The group said. 
Or group wrote. 
The hackers then added that we've successfully gained access to Idaho National Laboratory and that we've accessed hundreds of thousands of user, employee, and citizen data. 
Why is citizen data in a nuclear facility? 
I'd like to know that. 
Including full names, dates of birth, addresses, and social security numbers. 
Of course, you've got to put social security numbers into a nuclear database. 
Idaho National Laboratory, known as INL, spokesperson Lori McNamara confirmed the breach stating that it is being investigated and federal law enforcement is involved. 
Oh, I'm sorry. 
That's funny. 
Excuse me. 
Earlier this morning, Idaho National Laboratory determined that it was the target of a cybersecurity data breach affecting the servers supporting its Oracle HCM system, which supports its human resources applications. 
INL has taken immediate action to protect employee data. 
McNamara said this a full nine days ago on November 20th. 
INL has been in touch with federal law enforcement agencies, including the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security's Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, to investigate the extent of data impacted in this incident. 
Nothing about being in touch with veterinarians or anyone else that might know where the cats are from. 
The INL is one of 17 national labs in the U.S. 
Department of Energy complex and employs more than 6,100 people who focus on nuclear research, renewable energy systems, and security solutions. 
We're willing to make a deal with INL. 
This is what the hackers wrote. 
If they research creating in real life cat girls, we will take down this post. 
You find that funny, Rob? 
Cat girls? 
I don't think cat girls appreciate being laughed at. 
Now, for those who don't know, a cat girl generally refers to a young, breasted, female-animated character with feline traits like cat ears or a tail. 
And now we know. 
Many people ask why for INL breach. 
We are cats. 
Intricacies such as why do not concern us. 
The hacking group sieged security claims that it has hacked NATO twice this year and released sensitive documents. 
NATO confirmed it is facing persistent cyber threats and has implemented additional cyber security measures. 
And a litter box. 
I'm joking. 
But boy, yeah. 
Gay furry hackers. 
Right on. 
And I love that federal investigators are hunting gay furry hackers. 
Well, they have to. 
Trying to track them down. 
They have to. 
All the court documents. 
In hot pursuit. 
All the subpoenas and things like that. 
But they have to say gay furry hackers in there. 
So much paperwork. 
Yeah. 
But just knowing that you're getting federal agents to start conferring. 
And maybe that's why they want to encrypt the radios. 
Because, you know, a recording of federal agents or cops saying, okay, we're on the gay furry hackers now. 
You know, that could be used in some kind of a musical track and repeated over and over again to the embarrassment of said agents. 
So, there you go. 
You know, InfoSec is about being prepared. 
And if the IT folks at INL had just invested in maybe some spray bottles they could fill with water, they could have been safe from these cats. 
That's true. 
That's true. 
Maybe. 
We'll see. 
But these cats, I mean, maybe they aren't the worst thing. 
And this is a wake-up call, you know, that, you know, will make this lab a better place. 
As Rob pointed out. 
Maybe. 
Implementing better protocols. 
I mean, tell me an environment a cat does not improve, you know? 
So, maybe just making the place a little bit more cozy would be something. 
Yeah, like little scratching posts. 
And if there are mice, I don't know what the parallel is to mice here, but the cats will be on top of that as well. 
All right. 
Another story about a ransomware gang. 
This ransomware gang, we talked about this a couple of months ago, actually, that they were threatening to do this, but they actually went ahead and did it. 
Ransomware gang has filed an SEC complaint against a company that refused to negotiate. 
The black cat ransomware. 
Wait, another cat group? 
Are all hacker groups now cat-related? 
Is that, did I miss something? 
Well, you know, short days, long nights, living on the edge, not afraid to die. 
Yeah. 
All right. 
Well, it wasn't like that in my day, but all right, fine. 
The black cat ransomware gang has begun abusing upcoming U.S. 
Securities and Exchange Commission cyber incident reporting rules. 
Are they abusing it or are they using it? 
I'm not sure. 
This is kind of editorializing here in CSOonline.com. 
Yeah, they are abusing or using the reporting rules to put pressure on organizations that refuse to negotiate ransom payments. 
The attackers filed an SEC complaint against one victim already in a move that's likely to become a common practice once the new regulations go into effect in mid-December. 
Yeah, cyber criminals behind the black cat ransomware, also known as ALF-V, listed Meridian Link, a provider of digital lending solutions to financial institutions, on its data leak website that's used to publicly name and shame companies the group allegedly compromised. 
Most ransomware gangs have adopted this double extortion tactic in recent years to force the hand of uncooperating victims by threatening to sell or release data that the attackers managed to steal. 
In fact, some cyber criminal groups don't even bother deploying the encrypting malware sometimes and go straight to data leak blackmail. 
This seems to have been the case with Black Cat and Meridian Link, according to databreaches.net, who reported speaking with the attackers. 
The breach reportedly happened on November 7th and only involved data exfiltration. 
After an initial contact by someone representing the company, communications went silent, the attackers said. 
And as a result, on November 15th, the group listed the organization on their data leak blog, but took it one step further. 
It filed a complaint with the SEC for failure to disclose what the group calls a significant breach compromising customer data and operational information using form 8-K under item 1.05. 
I don't know why they're giving us such specific information on where to find that. 
I guess ransomware people read this, so they need to know how to get there. 
But boy, that takes chutzpah. 
I mean, that's something. 
I haven't seen this before. 
Now it's happening. 
I love that the criminals have resorted to the I'm telling strategy. 
Well, and they know that the industry is under a tremendous amount of pressure, a tremendous amount of pressure, as well as these labs and so on. 
It's got to be something that's taken seriously. 
And if there's sort of a feeling that they're not getting what they want out of it, I can see that this tactic maybe to try to heat things up or force reporting that the company may not be ready to for liability or other reasons. 
Well, I mean, if they're filling out these SEC forms, do they have to give real information as far as who they are? 
It seems like that would be not very smart. 
I think it's all performance art to them. 
Oh, it absolutely is. 
Just know that. 
That's a very foundational thing to all of this. 
I mean, you might as well have fun if you're going to be doing something like this. 
But, you know, what they're exposing is security holes for sure. 
I'm not a big fan of ransom, obviously, and certainly stealing is stealing. 
But exposing security holes of something like a nuclear plant or any other kind of government facility, that's something that needs to be known. 
And while it's known now, it certainly is. 
All right, our phone number is 802-321-4225, 802-321-HACK. 
If anyone out there would like to say hi or tell us something that's been going on with you in the world of technology, communications, hacking. 
No rules. 
What do you mean there's no rules? 
I don't know. 
Talk to Rob. 
The rule is you have to dial 802-321-4225. 
What do you mean there are no rules? 
Use the phone network. 
Well, you know, to speak your mind. 
And I meant that in a very loose sense. 
Kyle, look what you've done. 
You made the phone ring. 
Well, I figured that might stir things. 
All right, let's take our first call. 
Good evening. 
You're on off-the-govertime. 
Go ahead. 
Yes. 
I mean, I just want to... 
You happy now, Kyle? 
You happy with what you did? 
This is what happens when there aren't rules. 
Yeah. 
Yeah. 
I'm sorry. 
Caller, go ahead. 
Maybe we should have artificial intelligence wrote an article for 2600. 
Oh, you know, no one's ever thought of that before. 
So, yeah, I got to tell you, you know, it's, for me at least, it's really easy to tell when something is written by artificial intelligence. 
There's certain things that AI entities do when they're writing things, the formula, the way they speak. 
You know, it basically is a big waste of time if that kind of thing happens. 
And, you know, you rob yourself of the opportunity to actually create something. 
So, it's not a very good feeling either way, I don't think. 
And could you turn my volume up? 
I can't hear myself. 
You can't hear yourself in your head? 
I mean, you're talking. 
No, nobody. 
We can't hear me. 
We can't hear the call. 
We can hear you, but we can't hear the call. 
Is that true? 
Anyone else? 
Because, should I turn them up? 
Yeah, just watch for, listen for feedback, and maybe turn our mics down a little. 
Oh, he's loud now. 
Okay. 
Am I louder? 
Okay. 
You're as loud as you can possibly be. 
See, this is what happens when I talk now. 
I'll turn myself down. 
Yeah, turn us down a little. 
Okay, so now we can barely hear us, but you can hear Reb. 
Yeah, but we can be emphatic. 
All right. 
We'll have to shout from the other side of the room. 
Okay. 
Why aren't you taking a listen to phone calls on the radio show? 
You ask the same question every week. 
Tune in to the last show and listen to yourself, all right? 
And that's how you get your answer. 
Not the last show. 
I'm talking about the past hour on the radio. 
Yeah, but you asked the same question the last time you called, and we answered the question then. 
So why should we answer the same question now? 
Okay. 
We want to create new content. 
New content, not old content. 
You know, people should, you know, if people would understand settings and options and, you know, things like that, then maybe they wouldn't get hacked and maybe ransomware wouldn't happen if people would, you know, know how to set permissions correctly and know what settings to select and things like that. 
Yeah, people are making mistakes. 
Definitely a problem. 
And, essentially, where does the money go? 
Can't they just, you know, trace that, like, you know, wire money to some bank and wherever and just say, oh, who's the account that it goes to? 
Well, that's why cryptocurrency is used as the payment of choice for many ransomware games. 
Okay, if I have a company, I don't have cryptocurrency, sorry. 
Well, they do have a helpline at the ransomware. 
I'm not kidding. 
The ransomware people have helplines for companies that don't have cryptocurrency. 
They will set you up. 
They will show you how to get started and how to turn over all the money to them. 
Oh, so they wanted to trace the helpline then? 
Yeah. 
Rebel, of all people, you should know that it's possible to set things up and disappear. 
Okay, and then, you know, just, let's see, how can we solve this problem? 
What do we, hmm? 
I think you should just go out there to the nuclear facility and say that you have a solution, and right away, their problem with the ransomware people will pale in comparison to what they're dealing with then. 
So, I would do that. 
Maybe they should just get mainframes, you know, and so, you know, like in the other. 
Go back in time. 
Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm in favor of old technology in certain instances. 
I'm not sure this is the solution here, but you might have touched upon something where not getting rid of old systems might not be the smartest thing to do, at least not too quickly. 
Right. 
Are you chatting? 
You're typing, aren't you? 
I hear you typing. 
This is why I don't like to chat, because people type while they're... 
Oh, we're getting an emergency interruption. 
What's going on? 
Rebel, stop. 
Stop. 
Stop saying you're breaking in with an emergency interruption in the chat. 
If you do it again, you'll be banned for the week. 
Wait a minute. 
Hold on a second. 
Why are you saying you're breaking in to the phone call when you're not doing that? 
You're typing it, and everybody can see you're typing it and not actually doing it. 
Well, hold on for long distance. 
One moment. 
You would like the rate, sir? 
One moment, sir. 
I'll give you the rate. 
Whatever the rates are, they're not worth it. 
They're just not worth it. 
That's a message unit call. 
You know, Gila's standing up, and she's got her finger above the band key, and you don't want her to press that, because if she does, you know, you've lost a method of communication that I know you value. 
Let's see. 
What else? 
Nothing else. 
Final words, Rebel. 
We're going to open up the phone lines for everybody else on the planet. 
Maybe I should have a YouTube page. 
Yes, that would be something. 
They deserve that. 
They do. 
All right. 
Thanks for your call. 
We'll be in touch. 
And I'm turning him down now. 
I'm turning us back up. 
Can we do that? 
All right. 
So now, regular. 
We've got to figure out this point. 
Did we really need to raise him? 
I don't know if we actually need to do that. 
We were actually getting mixed signals in the chat at the moment, so I can't even give you a straight answer. 
Some people were saying they could get everybody fine. 
All right. 
But I do like that we've just solved the issue of crime with the just could you not strategy. 
Yeah. 
Yeah. 
There is a big, I think, movement to not put as much of an emphasis on the users who are usually the victims of these things, that they are not setting something right. 
A lot of times, as we've pointed out for years, I think a lot of this stuff isn't really well designed for how it's put into use. 
And these vulnerabilities are exploited and then people are, it's already in production, people are using it. 
And then you find out sort of after the fact, instead of having robust design. 
Right. 
But I do believe if a government agency or some huge company is using something that's defective and it's our data that's being compromised, they need to be exposed for having poor security practices. 
And no matter how they were talked into using poor products in the first place, we're still the victims. 
So, you know, you don't just get away with, you know, paying a fine and nobody knows about it. 
Yeah. 
Yeah. 
I'm all for that. 
I also think, though, that the types of reporting and disclosure and how you're doing that are important, important distinctions to make, because now is a very bad time to have people that are doing important research to be worried about their physical security or their personal lives and information being out there. 
Just like any of us would not appreciate that and don't when aspects of our life are feeling like they're being compromised or that they're at risk. 
It changes your ability to lead a happy, productive life. 
And so when this does happen and people are trying to, you know, make a point, having just a yard sale of info from research facilities or trying to make money off of it is not necessarily sort of an altruistic security stance. 
I understand there's groups that don't care or want really nothing to do with anything responsible, but it is worth making a distinction. 
All right, Rob. 
While we're waiting for our next phone call, I did want to relate a bit of feedback we got on our radio hour over Mastodon, where you can find us off the hook at hackers.town. 
Adam says, in relation to the police scanner story that we were talking about, just because the names of victims and suspects were read out over the air in the past doesn't mean we should keep doing that forever. 
But bring your concerns to the people who fund the police department, likely city officials to set the budget. 
They're the ones who keep the PD in check. 
Um, well, they're the ones who are supposed to keep the PD in check. 
Oftentimes they don't. 
Yeah. 
And in cases like our city, I think that is, uh, that is abject failure, um, a textbook style. 
But, uh, he goes on to suggest for the record, I feel the solution could be to phone those names over instead of broadcasting them. 
Some PDs already do this. 
Yeah, that's, that's what I was saying before. 
Use a different method of conveying that information, whether it's, you know, some kind of encrypted text or, or a phone call or something like that. 
You don't have to broadcast people's names in the clear. 
And that shouldn't be the only reason why you're suddenly encrypting everything. 
That's, that's just not right. 
Do we have a phone call, Kyle? 
Um, yes, the line is ready. 
Okay. 
And good evening. 
You're on off the go for time. 
Go ahead. 
Good evening, gang. 
Once again, this is Tim in Connecticut. 
How are you tonight? 
Good. 
How are you? 
Not bad at all. 
Not bad at all. 
I was wondering, uh, you know, before you, when you were talking about the passwords and stuff, most people, unfortunately, just buy something in the store, take it home, start using it. 
Never once imagining that they need to change the password to get into their particular unit. 
Like they're the only people on earth. 
Uh, speaking of that regarding hacking and things, did you see the article coming out of Aliquippa, Pennsylvania, about the municipal water authority? 
Uh, they said that they were hacked by an Iranian backed cyber group called cyber avengers. 
No cats. 
Yeah. 
They took, uh, no cats, took control of one of their, uh, pumping stations. 
Why do you have to have a pumping station accessible on the internet? 
I don't get that. 
Uh, the thing that they have, it's a unitronics machine. 
Once they tried to, uh, it had stopped. 
So they did a power on reset. 
And when it pops back up, it said, you have been hacked down with Israel. 
Every equipment made in Israel is cyber avengers legal target. 
Legal target. 
Okay. 
It's great when you can, uh, say the law's on your side when it's not, um, yeah, you know, this, this kind of thing is, is inevitable. 
It's been happening forever on anything that's connected to the internet. 
I just, I question why is something like that? 
Can't you have closed networks for certain crucial things like water pumping stations? 
Probably just more difficult and more expensive. 
Yeah. 
Imagine that. 
I mean, they're, they're doing these networks so they don't have to have people monitoring the equipment. 
You know, you can pay one person to monitor 10 sites instead of having, you know, the theme is people. 
We need people. 
People should be used instead of always eliminated. 
Uh, go ahead, Kyle. 
Uh, savings. 
Yeah. 
I just want to point out that this is a really, uh, integral aspect of automation and a lot of the advanced, um, uh, sort of statistics and logging and things that are, uh, important for efficiency and operational, um, uh, extending abilities operationally. 
In other words, having less people monitoring or, or less people in physical parts of say a well system for a, a water, uh, utility or, or other site. 
I mean, I mean, I mean, without being specific and a lot of times these controllers can be compromised, uh, because other elements of them are online, not necessarily the valve or that pump itself, but having someone at different sites to physically change the, the mechanical attributes of a system like this is unwieldy. 
And, and that's why a lot of this stuff is, um, upgraded, but in some cases it's, it's older stuff or it's obsolete or it has vulnerabilities and the, this is, this is the result. 
So yeah, I did catch, I did hear a little bit about that, but I haven't read any articles yet. 
Go ahead, Gila. 
Uh, did want to point out, sorry, Tim. 
I did want to point out that a listener who does live in the area and did send those articles into the show. 
We thank you, um, wanted to point out that one of the local news outlets referred to the attackers as cyber gorillas. 
Oh, wow. 
Which is an excellent turn of phrase. 
Yeah. 
Especially when cats are involved. 
Okay. 
All right. 
We'll see where that goes. 
Go ahead, Paula. 
Yeah. 
What I thought was funny was they're, they're doing things like turning them off. 
I think they're just simply showing the ability or the vulnerability. 
You know, the question is how far do they go from turning off the water supply? 
Versus changing, for example, the chlorine mix into the public water supply. 
Right. 
The fact that that that's even a possibility should be enough to say we cannot have this accessible in any way. 
First of all, you know, an ex-employee can just go nuts and decide to do this. 
That's probably a more likely scenario than some random hacker from Iran or somewhere else. 
You know how hard it is to buy a refrigerator that doesn't have Wi-Fi access? 
Why in hell do I want my refrigerator connected to the internet? 
But we're pressured for everything from nuclear power plants to common household devices to be connected to everybody else. 
I don't want to be connected to everybody else. 
All right. 
Sometimes I do, but most of the time, no. 
You can look up your recipe and know what to put in or possibly view into your refrigerator while you're in the supermarket so you can remember, oh, okay. 
I have never even fantasized about doing something like that, and I imagine most people probably haven't. 
Well, so you always have to have some new feature to sell the next model. 
How's this for a new feature? 
No connectivity whatsoever. 
We promise we'll keep it that way. 
Hard to make a profit off of that. 
I know. 
I know. 
I think what's happening specifically with appliances is the appliance manufacturers are not necessarily technology companies or they're not up to speed or developing. 
They're not very smart. 
You can say that. 
They're not developing in parallel their own standards. 
They're usually sort of borrowing things like, oh, this wireless protocol, Wi-Fi or Bluetooth, these things are pulled in from other consumer electronics and applied to their types of equipment, and they're just kind of slapping them into the design itself and running with it instead of developing it and codifying amongst their other industry colleagues, much in the way that is sort of, I think, a little more natural in telecommunications and in computers and in mobile, highly integrated semiconductor and those big manufacturing processes already have to kind of interoperate and cooperate. 
So I think it comes a little bit more naturally versus an appliance company that's really just trying to stamp out a whole lot of something that does sell, like you said. 
So there's sort of a difficulty there. 
Maybe that will change as electronics design or electrical engineering or those technology departments in industrial commodities become more reliant. 
They'll have more specialization, but there's still like this sort of newness to it. 
I think that it's not totally their wheelhouse yet, if that makes sense. 
Go ahead, Rob. 
It's also just kind of late stage capitalism at work, because in the case of something like the refrigerator, in previous generations, it was routine for the same refrigerator to be in your kitchen maybe 30, 40 years before you needed to replace it. 
With proper maintenance, you could just keep it going. 
And the company that makes the refrigerator doesn't like that, because they want to sell you a new refrigerator. 
They want to sell you as many new refrigerators as you can, as they can. 
And one way of doing this is to insert new funky features that are flashy or attractive, but also contain and depend on electronic equipment that does not have that kind of lifespan. 
The Android tablet in a fridge door is not going to last you 30 years. 
Rob, can I tell you something? 
We've got a refrigerator that dates back to, what is it, 1974? 
1974, a refrigerator has been running every day, except when there were power failures. 
And it still works, and it still works good. 
In fact, we got a replacement refrigerator, because we were going to retire that one, figuring, okay, maybe it's time, before we realized how old it actually was. 
And we actually brought the new one in, and plugged it in, and it broke within two weeks. 
The brand new one just broke. 
And that was a message, I think. 
Just, you know, we're going to hold on to this one until it dies, and see what happens. 
Maybe I'm spending a lot of money for electricity. 
I don't know. 
But, boy, they built things to last back, 1974. 
I mean, good God. 
The phrase, you know, they don't build them like that anymore. 
No, they don't, and they should. 
They can't, because they last too long. 
You don't have any planned obsolescence. 
There's just probably too expensive to build them that way anymore. 
Yeah, but, you know, people will buy quality. 
I realize, I try to hold on to things for as long as possible, whether it's cars, computers, telephones, because things that last are better. 
There's no question. 
Well, I'll get off the line, let somebody else call in. 
Thanks for listening. 
You're doing a great job, guys. 
Thanks for your call. 
Thanks, and gals. 
All right. 
Bye-bye. 
Take care. 
Thanks, Tim. 
I do have a question, though. 
Is it the CFCs? 
I was going to mention the refrigerant aspect of, specifically refrigerators, but that's kind of its own offshoot of the conversation, because that's also true with the new refrigerants for air conditioners. 
In other words, those types of materials that are core to that type of cooling system, often there's pressure from industry to either change or not change what types they're using and introduce them. 
And we found the manual one day, and that's when we realized, my God, this thing's from 1974. 
Yeah. 
They're probably the good stuff. 
Nixon was president when that refrigerator was first plugged in. 
Think about that. 
Someone does point out that your 1974 fridge uses 10 times the power than a modern one does. 
No, you know what? 
I'm not sure that's true, because other facilities that have refrigerators, the electric bill is pretty similar. 
And we have LED bulbs in it. 
Yeah. 
So just chill. 
I don't know if the bulbs are... 
Just chill. 
Okay. 
They only go on when you open the door, too. 
We upgrade. 
Yeah. 
I mean, yeah, it's probably not as efficient, but I'm not getting rid of it. 
Not until it dies. 
All right? 
It's a challenge. 
It'll probably outlive me. 
I mean, for what it's worth, we had our air conditioner bit it two summers ago and then bit it again this past summer. 
We just keep replacing them. 
We had a similar situation. 
We actually disposed of three of them that had been piling up over probably half a dozen years. 
I'll bet if I had held on to an air conditioner from 1974, it would still be going, probably be using more energy. 
But you know what? 
I think buying air conditioners every year uses up a lot of resources, too. 
And that's not a good thing either. 
Valid point. 
All right. 
All right. 
Shall we take another phone call? 
802-321-4225 is our telephone number. 
If anyone out there has anything else to say, tell us how your holiday was or anything else that might be relevant. 
I'm sorry if someone was trying. 
It seems the phone was off hook still. 
Oh, it was off hook. 
Oh, wow. 
Yeah, I didn't hear it ringing. 
I lost track. 
I was having such a pleasant conversation. 
Or I guess we were still connected to our friend, Tim. 
In the case of those air conditioners, though, while we're waiting for a call, our apartment building, we live in an apartment building, and part of the deal is they give us the air conditioner. 
And the building superintendent, who was replacing it either last time or the time before that, was saying that they don't last anymore. 
And they routinely replace dozens of these throughout the building at the beginning of every summer. 
Meanwhile, I think at my mom's house, probably the same air conditioner from when I was a child is still being used, along with the refrigerator. 
Add all that up. 
Add all the air conditioners you've been through, and add that one that's still chugging along, and see which one is using more resources overall. 
I don't know how to do that, but... 
As regards the phone, sorry, stepping away from the air conditioners for a second, a listener does point out that the phone is probably doing the right thing, because this is supposed to be off the hook. 
Oh, that's funny. 
That's very funny. 
I didn't even... 
I didn't see it myself. 
Thank you for pointing that out. 
Well, if we did leave the phone off the hook, the show would be a lot shorter. 
I'll say that. 
I mean, you said off the hook. 
I started singing the theme song, because I missed it. 
Thanks, MTA. 
And... 
It's weird singing the Busy Signal. 
Yeah, yeah. 
Oh, you know what? 
Speaking of Busy Signals, it reminds me of music I heard this week, which reminds me of a film I saw this week that had the music in it, a film called BlackBerry, which I highly recommend to people, but they make it so hard for you to find it. 
It aired once. 
It aired once on, I believe, AMC, at some ungodly hour, and that was it. 
It's just done. 
And it's not airing anymore, but it is on Prime and various other streaming services. 
But it's the story of BlackBerry. 
It's the story of the BlackBerry cell phone and data terminal, internet device. 
It's hilarious. 
It's educational. 
It's really captivating. 
And I strongly recommend it. 
And it's so well portrayed that the actors are perfect for the roles they play. 
Now, Kyle, you had a BlackBerry. 
In fact, I think you still have a BlackBerry. 
I have several. 
Yeah. 
I have one that I still use, actually. 
Well, as a BlackBerry fan, what did you think about this? 
It's a Canadian film, too, by the way. 
So that's probably why we're not hearing much about it. 
But it's worth it. 
Track it down. 
It's got the spirit of hackers, and it's just a whole lot of interesting things going on. 
It tracks with a lot of what you might have imagined, but not as much. 
It's behind the scenes. 
It looks a lot less organized than it did as a functioning handset provider. 
But what a wild story. 
I just didn't know. 
I didn't realize the extent of just how, like, flying by the seat of their pants they were. 
But the way they shot it is incredible. 
The story is funny. 
You'll feel like you experienced it, just like the crazy hackers in Waterloo, Canada. 
And the story of what almost became the Hamilton Penguins hockey team in Ontario as well. 
But that's not really the story. 
The story is the BlackBerry device and how it was something phenomenal and just what they had to go through to get it to be accepted by various companies like Bell Atlantic and AT&T and Singular and Verizon. 
Yeah. 
Those companies, I mean, huge plays were going on. 
I bankrolled a lot of that as a customer. 
A lot of other people did, too. 
They didn't mention you. 
No. 
But they never do. 
But it was jarring, I think, to have lived through a lot of those transitions, to have experienced all those different phones, and to see – like, one thing that they hit on that I'm so glad they did, that I've been – it's been a thing that I've been harping on for a long time, which is the switch of selling minutes versus data. 
And realizing – well, taking a very long time to make useful data layer in the early GSM handsets. 
I mean, it was there as a token. 
But anyway, like, to experience it and then finally having a device that could support practical uses, like, specifically with the iPhone watching programs, like movies, TV in the widescreen format with the lack of a keyboard, that was it. 
That's your tie-in to music videos, that's your tie-in to television, music, media, all of those industries also in California that go nicely with large amounts of data. 
So that was like a marriage that had to happen and really broke BlackBerry because they were all about low data. 
But they were convinced that when the iPhone came out, it was going to crash every system it was connected to because they're just trying to do too much. 
And also, you know, when BlackBerry was innovating ways of sending text messages, except instead of using minutes, they were using data. 
That was a big deal. 
They got a lot out of it early on in their own way. 
Mm-hmm. 
Exactly what you just said. 
Like, they were kicking butt by all measures leading up to that. 
So it was really sad in some ways. 
It was sad, but it was funny as hell at the same time because these guys, they were just so irresponsible at times, especially, you know, the founder, what was it, Paul and Mike were the founders of the company. 
And then this guy, Jim, comes in who's really super aggressive and turns things around. 
And it's just watching the whole thing rise and fall. 
It's fascinating. 
It's just the two hours flew by. 
In fact, there's two ways to watch this because like the BlackBerry, they made it too complicated and too hard to figure out. 
But yeah, there's a film called BlackBerry. 
But then there's a three-part series called BlackBerry, which is the film divided into three parts. 
But there are some extra scenes, not much, maybe 15 minutes total. 
But if you want to see everything, that's probably the best way to do it. 
But good luck tracking that down because I think the only way you can see that is if you have a trial subscription to AMC Plus, which I didn't even know existed. 
But that's like a streaming service that AMC has, which is more than just AMC. 
But through Prime, you can get a seven-day free trial of AMC Plus. 
I just remembered I have to cancel that. 
Oh, how about I didn't wait too long. 
Oh, I was supposed to remind you. 
Yeah, I might have blown it. 
I wanted to remind people the phone line is still open. 
So BlackBerry, go out and see it. 
Well, you can't go out and see it. 
I heard it premiered in theaters way back in the spring and was a bomb because I guess people don't like tech films. 
But I think our crowd would love it. 
I really do. 
It had a lot of the same aesthetic and, I think, really good historical tech that we saw in Halt and Catch Fire, which was another pretty good longer series. 
But this was so much better than that, I think. 
You think so? 
It was so much more lively. 
Yeah. 
Halt and Catch Fire, I didn't like the people in it. 
I really didn't. 
I disliked all of them. 
These guys, I like all of them. 
There's something about them. 
Even the corporate executives. 
And I saw Michael Ironsides again from V. 
I don't know if anybody remembers that. 
Back in the 80s, this guy was just one of the freedom fighters, and he shows up in this. 
And Mike Critch is there. 
And some shout-outs. 
Mark Critch. 
I'm sorry. 
If you watch the Canadian show Son of a Critch, which is actually on CW now, which is a brilliant move on their part, he plays the dad, but he's also the guy that wrote the series. 
But he's in this. 
He plays the head of the NHL. 
Head of the NHL, which is hilarious. 
Oh, man. 
So, just out of curiosity, is there anybody here that we're talking to right now, which is basically Rob and Gila, or anybody on the chat who has seen BlackBerry? 
A single person. 
I'm not looking at the chat, so, Gila, you'll have to translate for me, but I'm curious if anybody else has seen this. 
My point being that if nobody has seen this, and we're in the tech community, that tells me they're doing a bad job marketing, which is exactly what people in the tech community would do, is a bad job marketing. 
But these guys supposedly are in the film business, so they should do better. 
I think this film really would be a hit if people actually saw it. 
Yeah, we have not seen this. 
I did not know this was a thing until you mentioned it, and I'm reading the Wikipedia article now, and it said this thing premiered actually in February at the Berlin International Film Festival, and it was released in Canada in May. 
And, yeah, it's been around for that long. 
I had not heard Heidner Hare of this, and I would be definitely interested to see this. 
I believe I had heard of it recently. 
Unfortunately, we do have a listener, Legit Hats, said, yeah, I thought it was really food. 
I'm assuming that means good. 
No, it was edible. 
Well, you know, I'm guessing that, again, the intention was to say, yeah, I thought it was really good. 
The F is right next to the G. 
They thought it was really food, and we're planning on eating it. 
Well, Blackberry is a food. 
So, so far, we've had I thought it was really good, no, but I will find it, and never heard of it. 
Yeah, that's my point. 
People have not heard of it. 
You know how I found out about it? 
I have a DVR, and I recorded Better Call Saul on that season pass to that. 
Every time Better Call Saul had a new episode, it would record it. 
So a year went by, Better Call Saul is back. 
Okay, it's recording again. 
Whoever programs that has continued to mark things as Better Call Saul and new, and that is how I found out about a show called Lucky Hank, which has the star of Better Call Saul in it, because there was a promo that aired at five in the morning, and it was recorded as a new episode of Better Call Saul, but it was actually a five-minute promo. 
Same thing here. 
For some reason, a five-minute promo for this movie called Blackberry. 
I would never have heard about it had that not slipped into my DVR. 
So, yeah, that's a weird way to spread the word about things, but it worked in this case. 
Yeah, on a different note, we are hearing from a listener that another piece of news has broken. 
Uh-oh. 
Out with it. 
Henry Kissinger. 
Did he finally kick the bucket? 
This is what we're hearing, yes. 
Okay, well, he's like 110, isn't he? 
It's about time. 
Just 100. 
I mean, I don't know I'm going to say that about people, but for God's sake, my only thoughts about Henry Kissinger in the last 20 years is he's still alive. 
I really thought he died at least three different times. 
But this seems like it's going to stick. 
There is a blog I read sometimes that had a recurring series that was entitled Henry Kissinger Was Right There, which is, you know, unkind, but true. 
In reference to other people. 
In reference to other people. 
Yeah, passing away. 
Yes. 
What, he's the harbinger of death or something? 
No, that, you know, other people who have, like, I think when Betty White died, they were like, Henry Kissinger was right there. 
Stuff like that. 
Oh, they're talking to death, saying you could have taken Henry Kissinger, but instead you took Betty White. 
And, you know, what's her name? 
Carter. 
Rosalind Carter. 
Rosalind Carter, who is lying in repose right now. 
He better not take away the limelight from her. 
That would be wrong. 
So what you're saying is you don't want Henry Kissinger to be the Farrah Fawcett. 
No, I'm not exactly sure what that means. 
I know she passed away, too, a couple of years ago, but did she take the limelight from somebody else? 
No, she, what happened was, so in this particular circumstance, Rosalind Carter would be the Farrah Fawcett, because Farrah Fawcett died on the afternoon of a specific day, and the news is all about Farrah Fawcett, for about two hours, and then all of a sudden news broke that Michael Jackson was, his death was imminent. 
Wait, Farrah Fawcett died when Michael Jackson? 
The same way as Michael Jackson. 
Why did I think she died much more recently than Michael Jackson? 
Wow. 
Because Suzanne Sombers just died, so maybe that was the thought. 
No, she died a while ago. 
Didn't she die last year? 
Suzanne Sombers? 
No, she died like last month. 
I'm all messed up. 
I don't know when anything's happening. 
Farrah Fawcett and Michael Jackson died on the same day in 2009. 
Wow. 
Murder-suicide? 
Is that what you're implying? 
100%. 
All right. 
That's 100% what I'm implying. 
Boy, this show took a dark turn. 
But hey, you know, Henry Kissinger at least is tormenting some other realm now. 
So, again, I don't celebrate people's passings, but boy, that guy was a jerk. 
He was. 
He was. 
He lived some life. 
So, I guess we're done, right? 
Because we're not getting any more phone calls. 
Give it another minute. 
802-321-4225. 
Anybody has anything else to say? 
Otherwise, we're going to shuffle on out of here. 
Again, we're not on next week. 
We're on in two weeks. 
And also, maybe Rob, tell people about the meetings again in case they didn't listen to the show. 
Yeah. 
2,600 meetings. 
They happen all over the world. 
You can find one near you or you can start one near you. 
Go to 2600.com slash meetings with the info for the meetings for this Friday. 
They happen the first Friday of every month in most of the world. 
And in New York, go to nyc2600.net with all the info on the meeting that's happening at the Citigroup Center in the Food Court on 53rd Street and Lexington Avenue this Friday evening. 
I'll see you there. 
And again, 2600.com slash meetings for the list of all the meetings all around the world. 
And you can follow 2600 meetings on Twitter. 
Yes, Twitter. 
To get updates or to register your own meeting. 
Yes, Kyle. 
It looks like you have something to say. 
Oh, I was just going to suggest also check in on people. 
You know, it's a dark time of year and we did take a dark turn. 
And so, you know, you're saying so much you're checked in on Henry Kissinger? 
Is that what you're? 
Oh, no, no, no. 
But I mean, people, people might be down. 
They might be depressed. 
Talk to people. 
So check in on the folks. 
Oh, definitely. 
Definitely. 
You don't want, you don't want them to go without attention or at least a sympathetic ear. 
No, no, everybody. 
Look, if Henry Kissinger were my neighbor, I would be checking in on him. 
And I mean that, you know, I think everyone's got the right to, you know, live a good life. 
And if you're having trouble, ask for help. 
Yeah, exactly. 
Exactly. 
We have a phone call. 
Henry Kissinger is not my neighbor. 
So I thank the stars for that. 
Oh, yeah. 
Okay. 
Good evening. 
You're on Off the Govertown. 
Go ahead. 
I'm answering machines there. 
No, see, you got the wrong person, Kyle. 
No, that's not what I meant when I said get a call. 
Well, that's Rebel again. 
Either he's calling from the past or he's calling in the present. 
I don't know which is more disturbing. 
I'll give it one more minute. 
And if it's Rebel again, then no more calls. 
And if it's someone else, then... 
I'm going to do, I'm going to clear this really, really well. 
I'm going to do it actually extra more than, yeah, more than normal. 
Yeah, purge the line there. 
But yes, 2,600 meetings this Friday because it's December the 1st. 
December. 
Oh, my God. 
I hope we get snow this damn winter as opposed to last year. 
Snowed yesterday while I was getting my lunch. 
Where? 
Midtown. 
It did? 
I didn't know about that. 
I mean, it flurried. 
It didn't stick. 
For like a hot second. 
But there was snow falling from the sky. 
You know, usually I would get an EAS alert if there was a single snowflake falling. 
Actually, you know, I did get EAS on my phone. 
I talked about this on the other show. 
My phone suddenly lit up with EAS alerts. 
And basically, the cryptic message that I got was, if you can't call 911, call this number. 
And I'm like, what? 
What are you talking about? 
Why is Treby calling either of those numbers? 
And then there's a button. 
OK. 
The only way to clear the message is to hit OK. 
And you hit OK and the message disappears. 
So that happened twice. 
I had no idea what was going on. 
Later, I read a news story that said the 911 system on Long Island had gone down. 
And what they did was, what they thought was the wise thing to do was to send an EAS alert to everybody telling them there was an emergency because people couldn't call the cops. 
And to call this number instead, a number that completely vanished from your screen as soon as you acknowledged the message. 
It was really badly designed. 
I didn't understand what they were trying to say because of the way they phrased it. 
But I don't think that's how you tell people there's an alternate number to call if 911 is not working by telling everybody there's an emergency. 
So next time, maybe they'll do a better job. 
And yes, there will be a next time because for some reason, phone systems go down. 
It's not as simple as it used to be. 
Yes, Rob. 
We do have a report from someone in the chat that it is snowing in Jersey right now, apparently. 
All right. 
Well, is it sticking? 
You know, I'd like to know if snow actually... 
It's not sticking. 
I think the ground is probably still a little too warm for it to snow. 
Excuse me, for it to stick. 
But yeah, people are... 
I love this part of the chat that people are chiming in and they're saying that it snowed yesterday where they were. 
It's snowing now. 
Nothing has snuck. 
And yes, Santiago, we also hope it snows in Madrid because we love snow. 
There is a thing in the Times today that it's been like over 600 days since there's been an inch of snow in Central Park. 
Yeah, there's something wrong with that. 
And like I said earlier this year, I want two winters this year because we didn't have one last year. 
And if I have to travel to one, I'll do that. 
But this can't stand. 
All right. 
With those foreboding words, we're going to say goodnight for tonight. 
Again, write to us, OTH at 2600.com. 
We'd love to hear from you. 
We will see you again in two weeks. 
Goodnight for tonight.