The number you have reached, 445-8988, has been disconnected. 
445-8988, has been disconnected. 
No further information is available about. 
445-8988. 
If you'd like to make a call, please hang up and try again. 
If you need help, stay on the line, and a hacker will assist you shortly. 
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall. 
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call. 
We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would. 
One-Dilly-Bom, for the best to stay, for the worst. 
I hope that's understood. 
One-Dilly-Bom! 
We'll be right back. 
How are you doing? 
And out there in Skypeland, we have Rob and Gila. 
Good evening. 
And Alex. 
Alex, where are you? 
Yes, you do have me. 
Can you guys hear me all right? 
We hear you fine. 
Okay, very good. 
All right. 
Just a little bit. 
I'm actually on the rooftop, the highest rooftop of a hotel in Austin, Texas, at the moment. 
Do we need to talk you out of a hotel in Austin? 
Do we need to talk you out of something, or what's going on there? 
Maybe talk me into a few things, actually. 
We'd be better. 
I'm not on any web or anything like that. 
Okay, good. 
Yeah. 
But it's hot here, and it's my first time, actually, in Austin. 
It's your first time in Austin, really? 
It is. 
Oh, my goodness. 
Well, you've got some fun ahead of you. 
Okay, write down the word Guadalupe. 
Okay, write down 6th Street. 
I'm right next to 6th Street. 
Okay, well, then, you'll have quite a night of wandering from bar to bar and hearing all kinds of live music and things like that. 
But, yeah, it's an incredible town. 
It really is. 
Kyle and I were just out there for the eclipse, you know, not that long ago. 
That's right. 
Yeah, yeah. 
I mean, I've always wanted to visit the 512 ever since Slacker came out in the 90s. 
And this is where Bruce Sterling lived, when he was writing things like The Hacker Crackdown and Holy Fire and collaborating with William Gibson on a bunch of really great science fiction back in the 90s. 
And so, yeah, it's long overdue. 
I can't believe I've never been to Austin either. 
But here I am for work for NamesCon, the domain name conference that happens once a year. 
It used to be in Las Vegas. 
Now it's in Austin, and I'm here representing the Ethereum name service. 
So, very cool stuff. 
Wow. 
Okay, well, we're suitably jealous, I guess. 
But things are just fine here in New York as well, and we're just as happy to be here. 
As long as we're not on Ticketmaster, that's the important thing. 
Boy, you know, they were reamed in front of Congress, was it a couple of weeks ago? 
Or basically, the Justice Department came after them. 
I'm not sure if they actually appeared in front of Congress. 
I'm pretty sure they did at some point. 
Where Live Nation, Ticketmaster's owner were basically seen as being anti-competitive, evil, gouging, all that kind of nice stuff. 
And now they've been hacked. 
It's funny how these things always seem to follow. 
But, yeah, they have confirmed unauthorized activity on their database after a group of hackers said they had stolen the personal details of 560 million customers. 
That's more than half a billion customers. 
That's a lot of customers. 
My goodness. 
The group claiming responsibility is known as Shiny Hunters. 
Shiny Hunters. 
Yeah, they say the stolen data includes names, addresses, phone numbers, and partial credit card details from Ticketmaster users. 
I'm not sure why only partial. 
I guess they only store a certain number of digits. 
Maybe they only – well, if they only have the last four digits, it's kind of useless, isn't it? 
I mean, what can they do with that? 
Names, addresses, though, phone numbers, that's not generally a good thing to have there. 
But they've made a deal. 
They've tried to make a deal. 
They're demanding or requesting, I think, might be a better way to get what you want. 
But asking politely for $500,000, you know, not that I'm giving advice or anything like that, but if you go and you steal details for 560 million customers, ask for $560,000. 
It just – it makes sense. 
It's a symmetry. 
And also, you know, there's no mix-up. 
It's easy to keep track of. 
Or only steal 500,000 customers. 
Your choice. 
So they're demanding that ransom payment to prevent the data from being sold to other parties. 
You know, in your traditional kidnappings, you know, where there's ransom demands and you pay the ransom, you get the kid back, right? 
And that's it, you know? 
There's not an infinite number of kids out there. 
There's one, and you get it back. 
Okay. 
And that little adventure is over. 
But in the case of hacking, in the case of data, paying somebody to not do something with data doesn't work because the data could still be in their hands and most likely is. 
And it's almost infinite. 
That's why it's so important to keep things secure and to not let this happen. 
So in addition to all the price gouging and monopolization of the market and just making a ton of money off of everybody because they had no choice but to go through Ticketmaster slash Live Nation, in addition to all of that, they apparently weren't spending it on security because they allowed 560 million of their customers to be compromised. 
And, yeah, you know, we can say Ticketmaster was compromised, but it's really those individuals that were compromised. 
It's their data that's out there. 
It's their privacy that's being invaded. 
They're getting phone calls or all kinds of things sent to their homes or whatnot or just knowing that information is out there because they made the mistake of using Ticketmaster and giving them information that they couldn't be trusted to keep safe. 
Now, the Ticketmaster breach was first revealed by Ticketmaster. 
No, I'm kidding. 
They tried to keep it secret. 
The hackers who did it revealed it first. 
They posted an advert for the data on Wednesday evening, last Wednesday evening. 
The Ticketmaster refused to confirm it to reporters or customers and instead notified shareholders late on Friday. 
Yeah, that's where you go first is the shareholders. 
I don't know. 
Alex, what do you think about this? 
It kind of stinks, this case, doesn't it? 
Yeah, I think it does, but it's also pretty par for the course in terms of how these types of threat actors operate. 
It's always on the basis of some kind of extortion, and you pay a certain amount of money, and then you hope that the problem goes away. 
But there is this great deal of trust that you have to have in these bad actors. 
I'm sorry, are you talking about the hackers or Ticketmaster? 
I just wasn't paying attention for a second. 
I guess so. 
I guess we may technically have bad actors on both sides of this transaction, depending upon how you look at it, quite frankly. 
However, I think with respect to the threat actors that are responsible for the breach that stole the data, the media would call them the hackers, right? 
We're not going to make that mistake on our show. 
We'll call them what they are, the threat actors, the criminals that stole this particular type of data. 
Well, you need to have one word if you want to replace the word hackers with something else. 
And let's just say attackers or, gosh, we have to agree on the word. 
That's the problem. 
We can't seem to do that. 
Well, we can vary it up a little bit. 
I mean, so long as the connotation is negative, that's all that matters, I think, right? 
Intruders. 
Be consistent. 
Intruders to intruders. 
That's a good one. 
You don't see that one or hear that one very often. 
But for these intruders, their business model is very much based on their reputation. 
The other thing that's interesting is I'm not familiar with this group of intruders or threat actors, whatever we want to call them, that's responsible for this particular breach. 
So that's a bit of a red flag to me because most of the time these groups really trade on their reputation so that if you pay them to get rid of the data that they stole, that they exfiltrated, it usually doesn't show up anywhere else because that means that any other third party that they breach into which they intrude on their systems as intruders later on is not going to trust them. 
And the other thing that's interesting about this case, too, is $500,000, that's nothing when it comes to the types of ransom that are being demanded for ordinary ransomware attacks from other groups of intruders or threat actors. 
Well, this isn't ransomware so much because they haven't locked up the terminals at Ticketmaster. 
This is just the data, and it's kind of questionable as to how valuable the data actually is. 
It's names, addresses, you can get that from voting polls pretty easily. 
And then when you say shiny hunters are new and you're not familiar with them, how do you think a group like this gets its reputation? 
They have to start someplace, so give them a chance. 
Well, that's the other thing. 
I'm not sure if they're new or not. 
I just haven't heard of them. 
I haven't dealt with them. 
I haven't been in battle with the shiny hunters in any incidents yet. 
Maybe that will change in the future. 
I pray that you don't. 
Well, who knows? 
But to go back to your point, though, about ransomware, very often ransomware nowadays has some kind of extortion component to it. 
So not only is the data being held for ransom, but they're also trying to extort companies in the sense of saying that they're going to release the data or publish the data. 
That is, they being the intruders would publish the data if the ransom isn't paid, because very often companies will now have live off-site backups that the threat actors, the intruders, can't reach that they can then use to recover from some kind of ransomware event. 
So as an extra layer of protection of their investment in breaching and stealing this data, very often the ransomware groups will engage in this exact type of extortion, whereby they say to the company, we're going to publish this data, put it out there, or sell it to the highest bidder if you don't pay us X amount of dollars. 
But that's why I think this is a pretty low amount, given how much data we have at issue. 
I think, Emmanuel, to your point, the data may not be extraordinarily valuable because it relates to things like just names and addresses. 
But if you tie that together with the last four digits of credit card numbers, and the full measure of those credit cards would probably not be stored in an unencrypted manner because of the PCI DSS requirements, the payment card industry, data security standards, with which Ticketmaster would have needed to comply. 
But if you connect these names and addresses with the last four digits of credit cards, that can be pretty powerful, too. 
Because validating through the last four digits of credit cards is what happens all the time. 
I forgot what hotel I was staying in in Austin last night when I arrived on the plane. 
Yeah, that kind of a night. 
I had that kind of a night, exactly. 
So I had to call the hotel, and they validated that it was me on the phone confirming my reservation by the last four digits of my credit card. 
Right, but you had to – who did you call to find out where you were staying? 
I called the hotel in which I thought I had a reservation. 
But you said you didn't know which hotel it was. 
How did you call the hotel that you were staying in if you didn't know which one it was? 
Well, I had an idea of which hotel I thought I booked, but I wasn't entirely sure because, you know, I was using a Marriott. 
Okay, well, you had an idea. 
Somebody who didn't know that would have to call every hotel and figure – well, the point is, I think a better example is, you know, you have phone numbers of somebody. 
You can easily spoof call our ID to call a credit card company. 
You get the last four digits. 
They asked for that for confirmation, perhaps. 
Hopefully, they have a better system than that. 
But there are, you know, phone companies, cable companies. 
I'm not really sure what the end game is, you know, maybe identity theft or something like that. 
But certainly, you can piece things together. 
And it's just – it's really just the uncertainty of not knowing what's going to happen to the data that's out there. 
And, you know, probably other information, personal information, such as what tickets should you buy from Ticketmaster, they probably have that as well. 
And by the way, Shiny Hunters does have a reputation, I'm told. 
They've been linked to a string of high-profile data breaches, resulting in millions of dollars' losses to the companies involved. 
Back in 2021, they sold a genuine database of stolen information from 70 million customers of U.S. 
telecom firm AT&T. 
In September of last year, almost 200,000 Pizza Hut customers in Australia had their data breached. 
I don't know why I would give my information to Pizza Hut, but whatever. 
The FBI cracked down on their domain in March of 2023, arresting its administrator – Shiny Hunters has an administrator, that's interesting – named Connor Brian Fitzpatrick. 
But the site has somehow reappeared. 
And, yeah, that's where it stands right now. 
Now, if the data is as large as it's being claimed by Shiny Hunters, experts say it could be the most significant breach ever in terms of numbers and the extent of the data stolen. 
So this still could be a pretty significant incident. 
You know, it could, but I think Ticketmaster has an opportunity here to head this off at the pass, because if, as you say, Shiny Hunters has a reputation to protect, they will very likely delete this data, and you will not see it popping up elsewhere if they pay this ransom. 
And I'll tell you, I mean, the legal fees alone are – you should easily amount to 500K. 
The forensics costs associated with investigating this particular breach is probably over that amount already. 
Well, real question is, has Ticketmaster learned their lesson, or any of the lessons they're supposed to be learning? 
Do they somehow now have security, or are they going to start behaving in a more ethical manner for their customers? 
I guess it's a lot that remains to be seen. 
Rob, Gila, any thoughts on this? 
I mean, my first thought, of course, is that with an organization like Ticketmaster, who has effectively elbowed out all of their competition, you can't go to a live performance anymore without engaging with Ticketmaster. 
Is anyone not caught in this data breach? 
Well, people who don't use real names, I mean, you know, we have to figure out, as people, how to get around using pseudonyms. 
I really believe that is something that we have every right to do, and that protects our privacy. 
I don't disagree. 
But if you have a credit card, right, with the whole system they have now, with name, address, credit card, you have to have a credit card in the name of your pseudonym, and then do – you know, maybe it's just because I'm a very honest, truth-telling kind of person. 
But, again, who – 500 and how many million people? 
60, 560. 
Who in the world is not caught up in this data breach? 
And that's the other problem with the fact that these – that companies have been buying up their competition and elbowing out their competition into a point where now if you want to see a play, a concert, a sporting event, a dog show, whatever it may be, you're going to wind up having to deal with this one particular company, which obviously has not learned its lessons. 
And I'm also a little weirded out that they haven't said anything because I definitely have the Ticketmaster app on my phone because we went to see a show a couple months ago, and it was easier that way. 
Kyle, then Rob. 
Well, I would agree. 
There's a really – there's sort of a crescendo of these types of things happening where you're beginning to have to operate as though much of the information that you would expect to be guarded in some way is actually in some of these breaches. 
And the way they handle it often is to negotiate, as Alex alluded to. 
And my suspicion is that they're going to operate as they have, specifically because of the monopolistic edge they have. 
So they're going to treat it like a crisis management thing, like make it go away, and then return to the practices that are allowing them to afford that ability, to make stuff just sort of be a cost of doing business. 
And the consumers get really, really – the rawest part of this because of the victimization in each of the breaches over and over and over again. 
And then the things being combined and used in novel ways, it makes it just that much more dangerous in how contradictory your expectations might be. 
And as was indicated, like there are many more companies that you just cannot avoid doing business with that are huge targets that can write this off either with the ransom providers or even some customers if there are established protection mechanisms for collective litigation and class action. 
Go ahead, Rob. 
What I find interesting about this is, as Alex had mentioned, the unusually low ransom they've set on this. 
And it interests me because if – what do they call it? 
Shiny happy people, the shining time station group, if they're looking to charge an amount that a company like Ticketmaster could surely have the margins for, probably has insurance for, whatever, and it doesn't actually significantly hurt them to pay it off. 
I mean, we hear more and more about ransomware groups and things like that demanding huge sums of money. 
And if they're trying to corner, I guess, the budget-conscious data breach victim in this way, they might have a little niche for themselves. 
Yeah, entirely possible. 
And by the way, there are ways we can think differently as far as how we conduct transactions with such monolithic corporations. 
I mean, for instance, let's say you are someone who's plus one. 
Well, then your name's not in there at all. 
If somebody buys a ticket and just includes you, maybe there should be some kind of a legitimate business set up where tickets are bought en masse and not scalped, and then this information is not gathered on the order of Ticketmaster. 
There has to be competition. 
I think, you know, when you have competition, you have more options for doing business in a way that is comfortable for you. 
Because right now, giving all this information to companies like this, knowing that at some point it's going to be breached, it's not acceptable. 
It's not acceptable for individuals. 
We shouldn't have to deal with this. 
And, you know, I think it should be, as long as the bills get paid, you should be able to have a credit card under any name you want. 
You should be able to use P.O. 
boxes as your home address. 
All sorts of ways of just keeping things as private as you possibly can. 
It shouldn't be frowned upon. 
That shouldn't be looked upon with suspicion or as a possible criminal act. 
Go ahead, Alex. 
I mean, it sounds a lot to me like you may be advocating for some crazy idea like a national or federal privacy law that could govern how companies access and retain and process data, right? 
I mean, wouldn't that be something to have in the United States, right? 
I mean, the other thing that comes to mind is the, you know, why does this data have to be stored? 
And for how long has this data been stored by a ticket manager? 
560 million records is a lot of records. 
Does this go back 10 years? 
Does this go back 15 years? 
What are they doing with it? 
To whom have they sold this data in the past? 
I mean, these are all questions that I think. 
Well, you know, Alex, you can get answers to those questions if you outbid them. 
I mean, let's say 600,000 and give it to me instead. 
But, I mean, don't you think there is some, to use your terminology, actors someplace overseas perhaps that would love to get their hands on this data and can certainly afford more than 500 grand? 
Oh, absolutely. 
There's no doubt in my mind. 
And I think that the power of these types of breaches becomes apparent when you combine these data sets together. 
They're, let's say, begin tracking certain individuals, perhaps government officials, figuring out what they like, where they've been, with whom they've been consorting and traveling. 
You know, there's so many breaches for so long now that it's really kind of scary the type of picture you can begin to put together. 
It's like a mosaic from these types of data breaches. 
Go ahead, Kyle. 
Yeah, I really think that the thing we have to reoperate or must remind ourselves is that the product of these breaches is infinitely copyable. 
Like, it is portable. 
The data is portable. 
It can be used. 
The third-party aspect of it is always sort of the unknown or can escalate the sort of fear level of how all of that stuff, like you said, is combined and used. 
I think for what he was saying, like, yeah, absolutely. 
Flexibility on data entry should be, like, front and center. 
Like, we should be able to do things that align with our personal security comfort level, and that is sort of a variable thing, as Gila pointed out, across people's different tastes and comfort levels. 
I also think that we should not all have to operate like we're in the, oh, man, I want to use some expletives. 
Overtime. 
That's what overtime's for. 
I do not think we should have to live as though we're in witness protection because you're, like, a lot of what we're throwing around is, like, we should all be in hiding from ourselves, from our own sort of shedding of digital DNA, like, everywhere. 
And I thirdly wanted to point out, like, the answer specifically for, like, and in itself, like, that is an awareness level and a comfort level that varies with people, like, their idea of what information, you know, their life circumstance, maybe they've had violence or other kinds of trespassing that has affected their lives. 
Because they have an increased level of sensitivity to what kinds of information and who's sharing it. 
So, to me, it's, like, for the ticket thing in general, like, that whole conversation aside, there are plenty of tools and technology itself has advanced beyond what Ticketmaster was. 
And I think other than what their cartel itself is, there's not much in there that I'm thinking, like, their network of venues is really it. 
And I think the venues themselves really, their only way out of this is to organize in the opposite way. 
Like, instead of all being on board with them, they need to either locally or regionally have their own network of venues and roll or otherwise develop their own kinds of software that doesn't necessarily entrap them. 
And I know there's, and you can run software like this yourself, there's plenty of services online, but essentially, like, Ticketmaster doesn't actually print tickets anymore. 
It's, again, an infinitely copyable digital asset that they create for customers, but it's all using the network itself. 
So, like, if you think about it, their whole business model could be replicated by every single venue individually without as much as what it would have taken in the past, I think. 
Now, just a trivia question, a prize to whoever gets it right, what was the name of another massive ticket seller in the past in the New York area? 
Anybody want to guess? 
Go ahead, Rob. 
Ticketron. 
Very good. 
Wow, you got that right away. 
Nobody remembers Ticketron anymore. 
And they used to be really the only one around. 
But, yeah, so things haven't really changed in the decades. 
But, you know, just to swing back to the privacy issue, just ask yourself, you know, what I'm advocating is not really that unusual. 
You give your name to all kinds of people. 
You go to Starbucks. 
You order coffee. 
Why do you give them your real name? 
Why? 
You know, you could give them any name you want. 
Sure, if you go in there every day and give a different name, they're going to look at you funny. 
But, you know, maybe you use the same fake name every time. 
Maybe you use a different name in different places. 
Why is that a bad thing? 
And why do we feel compelled that we have to give this information, our information, to anybody who asks? 
And let's extend that to credit cards. 
I mean, you know, as long as the bill gets paid, then why do they need to know your name? 
Why do they need to know who you are? 
Why does Ticketmaster need to know your real name? 
You know, we just assume they do. 
But do they really? 
Yeah, we're too helpful. 
I think we're just too gullible, really. 
Go ahead, Gila. 
Well, you know, I'm just seizing on what you said about giving your name at Starbucks. 
And this is an issue that I run into that I'm assuming that most of you do not, which is the idea of the Starbucks name. 
Which is when you have a name that is not one that a lot of people are familiar with, you will often pick another name to give to the people at Starbucks. 
My brother's name is also atypical, and he worked at a grocery store when he was in high school and had a name tag that said Pete because people could pronounce it. 
And then my best friend's mother went through his checkout line and said, your name's not Pete, and he was busted. 
But no, it's weird. 
Now that I order with the Starbucks app, they'll get my name right every time, and a lot of the fun has gone out of it. 
Because trying to figure out, I would say Gila, and then what would show up on the cup was always an open question. 
You know, what we trust, the information that we trust people with, it's identity and it's self-identification. 
And it's also, yeah, do I give away too much personal information? 
Probably. 
But why not, man? 
Well, I think we're showing why not, because then your information gets compromised when somebody doesn't protect it. 
And that's happening all the time. 
True. 
But, and this is the other question I have, is when, again, we're being forced to deal with an ever-dwindling number of corporations in general, and the question about data breaches has now become when and how bad and not if. 
And, you know, what do we compromise to live in this world in which we now exist and not become an episode of Black Mirror? 
Yeah, it is chaotic, right? 
And the frenzy, I think, to be resistant to sort of offering information, to be open instead of withholding and resisting it is the temptation. 
But resistance itself takes, like, a lot of work and can be exhausting itself. 
But I think what E is getting at is this sort of healthy, sort of innocent poisoning of the persistent ask of being honest about every single thing. 
Because so many, even, you know, extending into, like, they all want feedbacks and surveys and they all want, like, there's just countless ways you're asked information. 
And the things like, I think in your case, like, it might be more of a, to eliminate awkwardness with the mispronunciations, you know? 
And that is itself, I think, an interesting cultural thing there. 
And I've noticed that, too. 
And I think a lot of people appreciate that as its own phenomena. 
But also just doing it for the sake, for no reason at all, and that playfulness is itself empowering. 
It's a little innocent poison to the pile of data they're trying to amass. 
But I wouldn't use the word honesty, because I don't consider it being dishonest to tell somebody your name is something. 
You know what? 
I'll confess. 
My real name is not Emanuel. 
And, yeah, I've been doing this for decades. 
And it's not an issue. 
It's, you know, I've had this name on credit cards, on billing records, and things like that. 
There are ways of doing this, and completely above board. 
It's not illegal. 
It's not something that you have to be afraid of. 
It's a choice. 
It's an identity. 
You know, you can choose what your identity is at any time, even if it's just for one encounter. 
It's, you know, it's your life. 
It's your data. 
And you should take control of it, not give control of it. 
Go ahead, Rob. 
Rob, you had your hand up. 
Okay, never mind. 
This was, the other thing this made me think of is just questioning the, I think this needs to be another thing that's considered when we decide whether or not it's okay to allow a monopoly of this scale. 
Because if, you know, a small business somewhere gets a data breach, they have a small, you know, roster of customers on their books, that's bad. 
But would one company be allowed to be the custodian of the information of half a billion people? 
And as we're seeing, you know, it's the same, just one breach. 
And that's so many people affected. 
More than I think any entity should be tested with a responsibility for. 
Absolutely. 
Yeah, even if you could certify it. 
It reminds me of that cargo ship that got stuck. 
Like, yeah, we can make a really big boat. 
Like, we could certify that it can hold all of this. 
But, like, is it usable? 
Is it functional? 
Does it, you know, will there not be casualties? 
Yeah, what are the downsides to this? 
Hey, just moving on so we can talk about a second story tonight, maybe. 
It's similar, though. 
Believe it or not, I don't know how many of you have TikTok on your phones. 
But apparently, you should avoid opening any direct messages you receive because somehow TikTok has made it possible to have malware transmitted through DMs on their app. 
The malware does not require the victim to download any software. 
They've really improved malware. 
They've made it so easy. 
You don't have to click on anything. 
All you have to do is open a direct message with the malware present. 
Now, yeah, this is seemingly connected to a separate report from Semaphore, which noted on Sunday that a, there's that word again, a hacker. 
What do you want to say? 
Intruder? 
An attacker? 
A mischief maker? 
Bad person? 
All right. 
Yeah, bad guy. 
How about that? 
Well, it could be a woman. 
You don't know that. 
You don't know that, Alex. 
Oh, I'm using guy in a gender-neutral sense. 
Yeah. 
Unless you do know something about this. 
Do you know something about this? 
I might know more about it than I'm willing to let off. 
Oh, okay. 
All right. 
We'll talk later. 
Anyway, a person broke into CNN's TikTok account last week, prompting the news organization to take the account down. 
While some CNN staffers told Semaphore that the team had been lax with its digital safety practices, that's a good admission there, one network source added that the breach came from outside of the company. 
It's entirely possible. 
A staffer opened one of the malicious DMs. 
Of course, you may have heard that one certain former president has just joined TikTok, and I'm sure they're target number one. 
So that'll be something when the malware arrives on that particular phone. 
Paris Hilton was targeted as well. 
Apparently, it's mostly celebrities who are being targeted right now. 
So if you're not a celebrity, maybe you don't have to worry. 
But, yeah, you probably should. 
Yeah. 
Malware through DMs. 
What a time to be alive. 
On the other hand, we should be DMing you TikTok links, which can be just as bad for you. 
I've never used TikTok. 
It's not because I'm against them. 
It's just I don't have time. 
But have you guys used TikTok ever? 
I have used TikTok. 
I have posted things on TikTok. 
I follow some people I know on TikTok. 
But it's all really just high-key chaotic for my social media tastes. 
Well, could you let people there know about our radio show, maybe? 
That would be nice. 
And you know what else? 
Let people know about WBAI because WBAI is this incredible radio station. 
You might have heard of it. 
You might be listening to it right now, in fact. 
And what we do is we broadcast without commercials. 
We've been doing it since 1960. 
Can't get a sponsor. 
We've been trying so hard. 
No, no. 
We have never tried to get a sponsor. 
And we don't want sponsors because the only people who invest in this radio station are its listeners. 
And that is more than enough if the listeners stand up and support the place. 
And you can do just that by calling 212-209-2950. 
It's not about what kind of thank you gift you might receive. 
It's about supporting the radio station. 
It's about keeping the station going. 
It's about pledging whatever you can afford. 
And we have the BAI Buddy, which allows you to be billed every month at an amount that you feel is right. 
And that adds up to a bigger amount after 12 months. 
You know, each month, a little bit of something. 
And then when you add it all up, it's like you pledged that amount in a year, the combined total. 
So there's that option. 
There are all kinds of other things. 
We have the $150 level, I believe. 
You will get a thank you gift of the Off the Hook. 
What's the word I keep forgetting? 
Anthology. 
Anthology, yes. 
I don't know why I keep forgetting it. 
I was going to say compendium. 
Off the Hook Anthology on a flash drive, which has every single one of our shows from the beginning until the end of 2023, with the exception of one or two that were stolen out of my car. 
Yeah, unfortunate night. 
But the important thing is supporting the radio station and keeping WBAI on the air. 
You can also go to the website, give2wbai.org. 
Give the number 2, WBAI.org. 
And you can pledge there. 
You can see what other thank you gifts exist. 
But, again, the important thing is to show support for WBAI, keep this radio station going. 
Well, we can talk about things like this with unabashed honesty and expressing our opinions without fear of what certain powerful entities might think. 
Because the only powerful entity that we care about are our listeners. 
And that's the honest truth. 
Gila, then, Alex. 
So, just to piggyback on what you're saying, Emmanuel, is that we appreciate our listeners a lot. 
And even if you maybe are listening to WBAI and not enjoying what we're saying all that much, hang in there. 
There is something on BAI for everyone. 
And it is so important that we retain this place on the airwaves. 
We cannot do that without your help. 
Also, don't forget, because of the kind of organization that BAI and the Pacific Foundation is and are, there are lots of ways that you can give. 
There may be matching gifts from your employer. 
There may be, if you have a donor-advised fund or an IRA fund that you need to make contributions from, you could make a planned gift to us. 
There are lots of things that you can do, but one really, really, really, really important thing to do, if you are a BAI buddy or you're just calling on the air or whatever it may be, is to please indicate that you are calling because of Off the Hook. 
That's right. 
The more money you raise, the better it is for all of us. 
And the best thing you can do is give money because the more money we get, the less we have to ask you for it. 
So if you want to hear us talk about technology and security and privacy and pay phones uninterrupted without having to stop you for money, the best thing you can do is give as much as you can as soon as you can because then we can stop asking. 
That's right. 
So, again, number 212-209-2950, website, give2wbai.org. 
Go ahead, Alex. 
Yeah, that's the connective tissue here back to the story that we were discussing before we digressed. 
I think it's also important to note that unlike TikTok, WBAI does not harvest the data of its listeners. 
You turn into WBAI, nobody's tracking what you're listening to or how long or what you tuned into or what you didn't like. 
Nobody's feeding that information into some kind of algorithm. 
You're listening to the radio. 
It's totally asynchronous in that way, right? 
You don't have to log in. 
There's no logs. 
I think that is so incredibly important to keep banging on about here because it is so unique. 
The technology basically is contingent on the natural physical phenomenon of the world. 
It has nothing to do with servers. 
It has nothing to do with log files and usernames. 
That is so incredibly important. 
I think we need to cherish it. 
And it is such a stark contrast as to what is happening on all these social media platforms, TikTok included. 
But to go back to that TikTok vulnerability that people are utilizing against what appear to be celebrities and possibly some politicians, I'm just amazed that that vulnerability, as powerful as it is, is being weaponized against such trivial people like celebrities, right? 
I mean, I guess it would be interesting to get into their messages and see what's going on. 
But I mean, are they really going to be doing all that much on their TikTok profiles or what are their – this seems to me like it could have been weaponized against very, very high-profile people. 
However, you know, it remains to be seen what else is out there with regard to this TikTok application and these inherent vulnerabilities that may be later exploited. 
Because if this type of zero-click vulnerability is being burned out in the wild now, that would make me think that there are even more sophisticated vulnerabilities that we will be seeing later on. 
So that's complete speculation and conjecture on my part. 
I have no idea about whether or not that's going to be the case. 
But I would think that these bad guys and girls, these threat actors, these intruders would not have necessarily used that vulnerability in such a trivial manner if they didn't have something else already up their sleeve. 
Interesting. 
Well, it's something to think about. 
And once again, the phone number, 212-209-2950 to pledge your support to WBAI and the website give2wbai.org. 
We can make a whole host of selections as to how you want to pledge. 
I wanted to read a letter that we got from one of our listeners. 
And again, you can write to us, OTH at 2600.com. 
That's our email address. 
Good day to you all. 
I just wanted to say that I thought the latest show last week was great. 
I also wanted to try and offer support about the TV issue. 
Now, please know that what I'm about to suggest is not the easiest thing, but it is said with love. 
Okay. 
Remember our roots. 
We are hackers. 
Ours is the way... 
We're talking about, I think, my problem with Netflix that I was upset about last week where my TV suddenly was declared to no longer be supported by the Netflix app. 
I was able to get around it, but regardless, I was still a little peeved. 
Ours is the way of the bypass. 
To us belongs the workaround. 
Whatever the big guys toss at us, we work to make it better and to work the way we want it to. 
I have a smart TV, but I do not use it as anything but a display. 
I do not use a Roku. 
I do not use Netflix. 
What I do use is a small B-Link computer with Debian Linux on it, and it is connected to a NAS, which has my movies and such on it. 
I am not saying that you should do this. 
I simply wanted to remind you of who you are. 
You are a hacker, and you can make this work the way that you want it to. 
To quote Firefly, you can't stop the signal, Mal. 
And you would have to watch the show to know what that means. 
Name withheld by request. 
Thank you for that letter. 
And, yeah, you know, I agree with everything you say there. 
The point is, and the point we are trying to make, is that not everybody is a hacker, and not everybody is able to do these things easily. 
And I am fed up with people being forced to constantly be buying new things only because they are told their old things are no longer supported or are too old and have to be updated. 
You know, when I grew up with technology, that lasted my entire childhood, and I had no complaints about that. 
So I just think we need to stop being so disposable. 
We need to start appreciating the technology we have and making it better rather than simply throwing it out and replacing it. 
Yeah, the wastefulness that planned obsolescence presents itself is a huge problem. 
And the realization that, like, we know why these things are going on, and that it's sort of a disingenuous business practice. 
All right. 
That said, I don't know if you guys caught this story. 
We only have a couple of minutes to deal with it. 
But it's a washing machine chime scandal and YouTube. 
You know, we've had our share of complaints about YouTube this year. 
Their content ID system automatically detects content registered by, quote-unquote, rights holders. 
One YouTuber named Albino said that it's completely effing broken. 
He declared that on a rant. 
You know, you didn't need to go there to hear that. 
You could have heard it from us months ago or years ago even. 
But this is a popular Twitch streamer. 
So their words carry more weight, obviously. 
This person complained that his YouTube video was demonetized because a Samsung washing machine randomly chimed to signal a laundry cycle had finished while he was streaming. 
Okay, first of all, we don't do any of this stuff for monetizing. 
That's an alien concept to me. 
But there are people who make their living through YouTube videos. 
And it's kind of sad to see how they have to jump through hoops to avoid the ultimate of being demonetized or, worst case, losing their account. 
I always wonder, you know, you lose your account. 
It's just like on the old BBSs. 
You just make a new one. 
You start over again. 
But, you know, when you spend years building an account and you have all these followers, yeah, that can be easier said than done. 
So I just wanted to play what was being described here. 
Basically, YouTube automatically scanned his video and they detected a washing machine in the background. 
And it was, I believe, a Samsung washing machine. 
And if you have a Samsung washing machine, then the following will be quite familiar to you. 
Really, does that happen every time your laundry is done? 
My God, how annoying. 
Okay, but, you know, this was picked up in the background, I guess, of this guy's video. 
And his entire video got demonetized because of it. 
Because somebody claimed that song, which is basically called Done. 
The song is called Done. 
Yeah, by somebody named Odego. 
They claimed that was theirs. 
Even though it's not theirs, because the music actually comes from the song Die Ferelle, known as The Trout, from Austrian composer Franz Schubert. 
You might have heard of him. 
So Franz has the rights to this. 
But he's been quiet about it. 
I'm sorry? 
It's actually public by now. 
But even if it wasn't, I mean, this is nonsense. 
This is exactly what we're talking about with this over-regulation. 
You should be able to have a washing machine in the background, you know, playing a Bruce Springsteen song. 
I don't care. 
It's got nothing to do with your video. 
It's part of life, you know? 
And we just live in fear of stepping on somebody's toes. 
Can you imagine if someone did that with, like, a horn honking on YouTube? 
Somebody owns the right to horn. 
The sound of a car horn. 
Well, you know, we can stretch it beyond that. 
Somebody is going to claim blue, you know? 
If you show the sky, you've got to pay somebody for that. 
It's a third of the pixels. 
We have 45 seconds. 
Alex, I'm going to give it to you. 
Go ahead. 
I was going to say, it sounded to me, I was half expecting numbers to be read out after that stop. 
Didn't that remind you of the shortwave number station? 
Oh, you're right. 
That intelligence agencies use? 
Like, it sounded like the Lincolnshire Poacher or something. 
Like, I was about to hear, you know, like, you know, numbers coming over in Russian or German right after that. 
There's no reason we can't start a shortwave station and do precisely that. 
I'm sure many people begin reciting numbers at their washing machine when it's done in much the same way. 
Well, maybe that's a great idea for another thank you gift, a one-time keypad. 
Rob, you have 15 seconds. 
Go ahead. 
Check out your local 2600 meeting. 
Find one or start one near you. 
It's coming up this Friday. 
Oh, yes, that's right. 
And, again, write to us, OTH at 2600.com. 
Give to WBAI, 212-209-2950, or give to WBAI.org. 
Join us at 8 o'clock on YouTube, channel 2600, and we will do overtime there. 
See you then, and we'll be back next week. 
  And welcome everybody to Off the Hook Overtime here on YouTube. 
Oh, but wait, before we actually begin the program, we have an official sound to play. 
I would throw the dryer out there. 
Yeah, I'd throw it out the window too. 
But that is the official Off the Hook Overtime theme now. 
I'm just curious, is YouTube going to flag us for that now? 
Because that's obviously in the public domain. 
This guy, Odego, I realize now I played his channel to play that song because apparently he uploaded it. 
And only 131 views. 
Wow. 
How am I one of the few people that have played this? 
But yeah, that should not be flagged. 
That should be completely public domain. 
Anyway, here we are in Overtime. 
Kyle, you seem to have made it okay. 
Okay. 
And Gila and Rob, you're there. 
We are here? 
Yep. 
And Alex, where is he? 
I don't see him, but I guess it's audio only? 
We have lost Alex for the evening. 
We've lost Alex for the evening. 
What do you mean we've lost Alex? 
Wait a minute. 
Last time I heard he was on top of a roof in Austin. 
Update me. 
What's going on? 
He told us he had to go. 
Okay. 
Well, it'd be nice to share that information in advance next time. 
We're going to talk with him later. 
I had a question to ask him too. 
Damn. 
Okay. 
Well, our listeners are here. 
And welcome, listeners. 
You can give us a call at 802-321-4225. 
802-321-HACK is our phone number. 
I just wanted to go into this story a little bit more because apparently people live in real fear here on YouTube because, okay, this guy claimed that that song belonged to him, even though it did not. 
YouTube gave Albino a boilerplate response on Twitter saying, quote, we understand how important it is for you from your vid. 
It looks like you've recently submitted a dispute. 
When you dispute a content ID claim, the person who claimed your video, the claimant, is notified and they have 30 days to respond. 
Now, this Albino guy expressed deep frustration at YouTube's response, given how egregious he considered the copyright abuse to be. 
He said, just wait for the person blatantly stealing copyrighted material to respond. 
Yeah, I'm sure they did this in good faith and will make the correct call. 
There would be a shame if they simply clicked reject dispute, took all the ad revenue money and forced me to risk having my channel terminated to appeal it. 
Well, I didn't know that's how it worked. 
If you dispute being accused of something and you lose, you get penalized? 
Do you guys know anything about this? 
The whole way in which the content ID system works is kind of a lashed together disaster because functionally anybody can upload anything to the content ID library, so to speak, and claim it as their own. 
And YouTube takes that as gospel until something is disputed and successfully disputed or otherwise proven wrong. 
But yeah, even a small channel with only a handful of viewers like this person can upload something and claim to own it and therefore automatically pull ad revenue from everything that involves it. 
There was a case some years ago with an artist called Hasselonia who made music in the public domain. 
Like everything this person released was automatically public domain material that anybody could use in any way and somebody else uploaded that to content ID and claimed it. 
And so this original artist who was encouraging everyone, yes, remix my work, do whatever, copy it freely. 
All those iterations of that work were then pulling at money for this other person who had no right doing that. 
So, Rob, can you take this show that is being recorded now on YouTube and upload that to that magical place and claim it as ours? 
Because it is ours. 
We're doing it. 
But I'm just curious what the procedure is. 
It's a very interesting question. 
And I would like to know more about it. 
If people who are deeper into this whole YouTube creative world and maybe especially in terms of music or having to have experience with this, get in touch with us, write to us, OTH at 2600.com or talk to us in the YouTube chat and let us know what your experiences have been. 
Yeah, it seems there would be significant heft like to the kinds of creators that are on and use the YouTube system to collect on that successfully. 
Their influence would be tremendous in this situation. 
And my question would be like, have they proven that this dispute system is capable of the volume and capable in itself to be equal or even handed in how those disputes are done? 
And like, are they really that authoritative a body? 
Is there any transparency as to who is making these decisions or what the shape of it is? 
Or is there just seriously just like a veil through like a very non-porous communication back and forth that really no one knows how it works or who or what they're talking to? 
That in and of itself, to me, shows the lack of integrity of the platform and where influencers might want to chime in. 
Yeah, because it is it is a walled garden in the sense that we're talking about rights and disputes and stuff. 
But this is not a legal situation when it's within the confines of YouTube. 
This is YouTube's algorithms, YouTube's robots flagging things, accepting complaints, just giving boilerplate responses because the sheer volume of stuff uploaded to YouTube means that no human force could possibly contend, I think, with with having to check these things manually. 
So basically, they take everything uploaded as gospel and don't look deeper into it unless forced to by somebody either disputing the claim or getting the actual law involved. 
And, you know, it's otherwise at the mercy of and very vulnerable to bad actors like like this person who uploaded the dryer chime and claimed it. 
Right. 
But I think also similar to something we've talked about in the past was last year, two years ago, when that piano teacher lady who got copyright claimed and had to take her whole. 
Right. 
Yes. 
And we were talking about it last week because of the guy with the picture in the wallpaper. 
And I said, are we sure this is really the dude who took the picture and not someone who's trying to exploit his work and copyright claim stuff that he really has no say over? 
You know, there's no way to know. 
And if it's if it's too much for humans to handle, then maybe humans shouldn't be doing it. 
That that tells you everything right there. 
Right. 
Oh, I mean, it's they say that ninety nine percent of copyright actions on YouTube have consistently been triggered automatically through Continent ID. 
That's YouTube saying this ninety nine percent. 
That's an awful lot. 
And there's no way they can keep up with the appeals. 
And they even admit that they've seen widespread abuse of Continent ID terminating tens of thousands of accounts each year that attempt to abuse our copyright tools. 
YouTube also acknowledged in twenty twenty one that just one invalid reference file and content ID can impact thousands of videos and users, stripping them of monetization or blocking them altogether. 
Yeah. 
I would I would say this might be an argument for for creating content that is itself processed in a way that that makes that fingerprinting harder. 
Like you have to do something to disrupt the input to to kind of hamstring the the results we're getting if it's an out of control system. 
Right. 
Yeah. 
This is why I really wish Alex hadn't bailed because I want to ask him questions about this. 
You know, like, for instance, on YouTube, if you have a musical piece there that is just a musical piece and it's as good a sound quality as if you were to download it or I get it from some some site where you would normally buy it. 
That to me is a clear abuse. 
Now, oftentimes, for unknown reasons, record companies put music up on YouTube themselves. 
So obviously, they want to promote it by not selling it sometimes. 
But in those cases where somebody else does that, yeah, I think that's a legitimate claim. 
Of course, the artist should have a say in that as well. 
But if something is simply detected in the background, who in God's name is going to say, hey, I'm going to I'm going to get some software together, download that video track from YouTube, edit out all the things around it, amplify the signal and wait for the rest of the song to appear someplace else so I can I can save 89 cents. 
It's it's absurd. 
And that is how people are living their lives, thinking that, oh, my God, this is going to be heard by by the YouTube computers and they're going to penalize me. 
I'm going to lose access or income or whatever else that you're depending on YouTube for. 
However, it's so unhealthy. 
And, you know, it's another thing that we just accept as as reality. 
It doesn't have to be that way. 
Rob. 
I'm talking of YouTube. 
I don't know if the machines are getting angry at us criticizing how they do things, but we are noticing some comments from our YouTube chat that our audio is starting to note it buffer and drop and things. 
This is so we had this problem yesterday on the other show. 
So there's something something going on. 
I'm going to do a speed test of our Internet connectivity. 
I'm getting an error saying YouTube. 
OK, you don't have to get personal. 
YouTube is not receiving enough video to maintain smooth streaming. 
Well, guess what? 
We're not doing video at all. 
So YouTube, you should be able to handle the audio that we're sending across. 
I don't know what the problem is here. 
Let me work on this. 
You guys keep talking and listeners try and piece together what we're saying. 
Whatever you're hearing. 
Know that that there's a good copy of this will be up online in the archive. 
Not on YouTube so much, but on our 2600.com website. 
Kyle's looking into settings on the program here. 
Rob Gila, let's babble away about something. 
We're going to be distracted from that. 
OK, so first of all, we would like to say welcome to the 25 people who are with us right now and assuming you can hear us and to thank Dory for pointing this out and for legit hats and Tim in Connecticut for piping in and saying that this is also an issue. 
We appreciate all of your participation and understanding and forbearance. 
And thank you, Jedi 83. 
We're Emmanuel and Kyle are doing the best that they can right now. 
So we are doing the best that we can by trying to keep you all entertained. 
Thank you, Bobcat. 
Yes, we know it's 2024. 
We can do video now, but we've been asked not to. 
We have good faces for radio, but and even if we were doing video, I still think the connectivity issues would be similar. 
Again, we're trying to work through them right now, but thank you to everyone in the chat who is letting us know of continued issues. 
I don't know what the hell is going on here, but I just did a speed test. 
We pay for a gig up and down, you know, fiber and all that. 
We're getting 184 megs up, 263 down. 
That doesn't sound like a gig to me. 
So something's up. 
Something's up. 
Don't know what it is, but I don't think it's us. 
I don't think it's our fault. 
I think it's it's one of these services we pay a lot of money for that's not working again. 
It's funny, actually, in the building where Gila and I am right now, we we have also noticed we have YouTube muted so we can speak on Skype, but we are watching the image and every so often the image is getting the loading icon in the middle of it. 
So we're not hearing dropouts because we're not listening, but we are seeing dropouts in the still image of the video, which is fascinating, actually, to think about. 
Well, would that be on your side? 
Is that you receiving? 
Because we're not broadcasting any video. 
So if you're getting a little circle or whatever there, I don't see how that could be on our end. 
All right. 
That's showing like dropping in and out. 
And apparently there was just a big dropout. 
I don't know if it was us. 
That was intentional. 
That was intentional. 
You intentionally dropped it off. 
I'm trying to talk about it. 
Oh, yeah. 
Let's hear what you have to say. 
You guys all are doing a great job narrating. 
I restarted it once. 
So there is a big gap. 
I'm sorry. 
All right. 
It was there was an encoding overload error in OBS, which is the program we use. 
But what's it? 
I restarted it. 
It seems to be working better. 
All right. 
Listeners tell us, but that doesn't solve our speed issue. 
Yeah. 
I mean, I don't. 
The software we use kind of works like it's not usually that. 
It does sound like we have no bandwidth. 
So, yeah, like we're pretending to do this. 
But wow, it looks better now. 
I don't know if you I don't know if we can if we're just going to sit here and do speed tests all night. 
I'm going to do another speed test. 
So maybe people can call in and report how their night's going. 
Well, yeah. 
You want to add a phone line into all this? 
We'll see what happens there. 
The whole thing. 
Well, I just feel like we're going to dwell on it and it's going to get it's going to turn into how we end the show. 
But we have less speed now. 
It's under 100. 
OK, now it's above 100. 
But still, this sucks. 
This is terrible. 
I'm not restarting it again. 
I'm not restarted. 
It's not my problem. 
I'm going to. 
If it looks like something is falling apart, I'll click something. 
Wow. 
Aguila, any any any reports from the Rose Rogues Gallery or whatever you call that? 
The folks out there do seem to be indicating that things are going better. 
And our old friend Bobcat is as chipper as ever. 
Well, that's good. 
That's good to hear. 
So so we're better. 
We're better. 
People can hear us now. 
Things do seem to be going better. 
Yeah. 
OK, I'm not going to repeat everything I said. 
I don't think anybody else here wants to. 
So if you want to hear that, grab it from the archive on 2600.com later. 
Our phone number, 802-321-4225. 
I don't think we have a phone call, do we, Kyle? 
No. 
OK, so that's our that's our phone number. 
802-321-HACK. 
We'd love to hear from you. 
Maybe maybe this speed issue is something unrelated, but I don't know. 
It's annoying me. 
OK, I have a thing about data privacy. 
Go on. 
Because I keep getting text messages from. 
Political candidates. 
OK. 
Yeah, they won't stop. 
They won't stop. 
And. 
It is is deeply frustrating because I'm pretty confident I didn't give my phone number when I registered to vote. 
And my phone number is. 
I don't have a local area code. 
I got my phone number before I moved to the New York area. 
I didn't change it when I got here. 
So it doesn't. 
That doesn't make a lot of sense. 
Also, just to answer a quick couple of questions from the chat. 
Yes, over time is archived. 
You'll be able to hear everything in beautiful sound shortly. 
And we're not going to do a video show. 
It's not going to happen. 
But thank you for asking. 
But don't listen to the archive on YouTube because what can I say that? 
Is that legal? 
Can I say don't listen to YouTube on YouTube? 
I can't. 
You're kidding, right? 
Now, have we reached that stage where I can't say that? 
I can't. 
OK. 
All right. 
Apparently, I can. 
People just kidding around. 
You could put a tiny little video in the corner. 
Don't don't listen to the archive on YouTube because it'll sound as shitty. 
And yeah, I can say that on YouTube as what you have been hearing. 
But we also record the shows locally. 
And in situations like this, we can upload the better copy for our archive. 
on 2600.com slash off the hook. 
And that's where you can find all of the shows. 
But it's still better to get the flash drive by supporting WBAI. 
Because have you ever tried to download all of the shows? 
It takes forever. 
It really does. 
So a flash drive, you have them all. 
You can copy them wherever you want. 
You can broadcast them out the window. 
You can have them in your car. 
You can plug the flash drive into your car and drive around the country. 
And not even hear a significant amount of our programs. 
I have a question. 
Go ahead. 
Then Kyle. 
Does the flash drive include overtime? 
Or is it just the BAI shows? 
It does include overtime where overtime exists. 
Well, that's a stupid thing to say. 
Obviously, they can't include it where it doesn't exist. 
But yeah, when we started doing overtime, I think that was what? 
2021 we started that? 
But yeah, so those shows are there as well. 
I was going to say you could answer the challenge when we first started talking about content ID. 
Yes, yes. 
You know, not only is overtime on there, but other shows building up to off the hook. 
Because when I started at WBAI, I started doing a special off the hook late at night. 
I didn't think of that as a series. 
And I did other radio shows. 
One was called The Fifth Corner. 
I did News of the World. 
I did a bunch of fill-ins. 
And wherever we had tapes, those are included as well. 
Oh, we have a phone call. 
Okay. 
You can say that, Kyle. 
We have a phone call. 
All right. 
And good evening. 
You're on off the hook overtime. 
Go ahead. 
You already picked up like two minutes ago. 
I know. 
I know. 
But you were down on the board. 
So no matter how loud you screamed, I couldn't hear you. 
Okay. 
So first, when you go into Starbucks and they ask your name, what I always say is, call me Ishmael. 
Oh, that's clever. 
Do they get it? 
And they all laugh because they're all English majors. 
You're probably right. 
Wow. 
That's good. 
That's good. 
You can keep going with that too, you know? 
All kinds of literary figures. 
Yes. 
But Starbucks is from Moby Dick, so. 
Well, I wouldn't advise going in there and saying you're Moby Dick. 
That might result in you not getting what you want. 
But, you know, Starbucks is relatively harmless because they literally just write your name down on a cup and that's it. 
But if you use their app, then you're sending information on the app and then they get more information. 
Again, the store itself, I don't think, is doing anything with that other than handing you your cup. 
But can you be a weird person on the app? 
I don't know. 
Probably. 
I mean, I don't use these apps. 
Credit card names. 
I don't know why you need an app to buy a cup of coffee. 
Or can you use a gift card or whatever, but like make up whatever profile. 
Yeah. 
Tell me why you wouldn't be able to do that. 
I mean, it makes perfect sense to just use a fake name. 
Well, I use a fake name. 
I have a real name. 
I have a fake name. 
I had a fake name on my landline. 
And the other day I looked up to see if someone had gotten that number. 
It has not been recycled after like 10 years. 
But, okay, it had my fake name on my real landline, which took some doing. 
Okay, good. 
I looked up my current primary cell phone number. 
It had my real name. 
Okay, there's various websites that you can look up stuff. 
Okay. 
So it had my real name with my primary number. 
Then I looked up my fake name, and it had my fake numbers. 
Now, when somebody, some site somewhere, or some person who I don't want to talk to wanted a phone number for my fake name, I would give them a test number. 
And in Snetland, any number ending in 0970 would give you a one kilohertz turn, a cone. 
One second. 
Snetland is Southern New England Telephone, for those who don't know. 
Used to be, yeah. 
Yeah, it used to be. 
It's gone. 
Yeah. 
Rest in peace. 
So if anybody called it, they'd boop, and then they'd just think they had accidentally gotten my fax machine or something. 
But here's the thing. 
I also used loop numbers, and you can explain what loop numbers are. 
You know this. 
There's a low end of the loop and a high end of the loop. 
So I would say, hey, call the high end of the loop, which ended in 0980. 
I'll call the low end of the loop, which ended in 0960. 
And then we'd be connected. 
Wow. 
The loop lines, yes. 
Yeah, you can just sit there. 
Okay. 
So I looked up those numbers, and my fake name is on them. 
Because somewhere, at some time, I use my fake name with the fake numbers. 
And it's connected to my real name and my real numbers on that website. 
To look stuff up. 
That's scary. 
That's scary. 
You can't hide. 
Well, no, I've had similar things like that. 
You know, I don't use Facebook. 
I try to avoid it, but I do play with it sometimes using fake personas. 
And one of the scariest things to me was using a fake persona where I didn't connect to anything that I was interested in. 
And I got a friend's suggestion on that fake persona for somebody that I knew. 
And that scared the hell out of me. 
Another thing that I did was set up a new computer at home, turned on the Wi-Fi, went to Google Maps, and it showed me a picture of my house. 
Oh, boy. 
Because the Google photo truck that goes by is snipping all the Mac addresses from your access points. 
They're taking Mac addresses? 
I didn't know that. 
Yeah, because they're fairly unique. 
You can change it. 
But I thought of a good way to commit a crime was you carry a fake Mac address AP device with you. 
You can do that easily with OpenWRT. 
You can go commit a crime, and it's always going to look like you were at home because you were always connected to that exact thing. 
Wow. 
See, this is what I mean. 
This is how you have to think. 
You know, it's not, we're not up to anything. 
We're screwed. 
We're screwed. 
Well, we're screwed. 
Yeah, there's no question about that. 
But still, we can at least try to fight a little bit. 
Okay. 
If you use a bank that allows you to do one-time credit cards, that's a good idea. 
You can do that. 
You can put fake names on your credit cards. 
I've had my fake name on some credit cards. 
But still, they can trace you back. 
It's all been connected already. 
It's far past time. 
You know, here's a question for everybody, though. 
What do you think we should have our real names on? 
I mean, you know, something that we're not going to dispute. 
Is it a bank account? 
Is it... 
It has to be your bank account, yes. 
It has to be voter registration, right? 
Voter registration, I would imagine we want our real names on there. 
For obvious reasons. 
Bank accounts. 
Driver's licenses, perhaps. 
But you don't have to have your physical location on any of those, do you? 
Driver's license? 
Why do they need to know exactly where you are? 
You know? 
As long as they can reach you. 
That's all that matters. 
There's levels. 
I mean, who's they in all of this? 
You got to remind yourself there are different types of scenarios and different criteria for all of these precautions. 
I had a cop tell me once, who was looking at my license after somebody rear-ended me, and looking at the address, and asked if that's where I currently live. 
And I said, no, actually, I moved a few months ago. 
And he told me, it's illegal to have a license that doesn't have your existing address. 
And I'm sorry, I just don't buy that. 
And if that is the case, then I'm not going to follow that law, because, you know, I don't believe in being tracked like that. 
I don't think that I should have to have papers on me that indicate where I am. 
That sounds remarkably similar to a lot of regimes that we're trying to avoid becoming. 
No, let me tell you why they do that. 
You're driving down the road. 
You commit an infraction. 
You zoom away from the police who spotted you. 
They've got your car registration. 
And they're not going to chase you, because that's dangerous. 
They're going to arrest you at home. 
Later. 
Wait, they have my license? 
You've got a car. 
You're driving a car. 
So they know who owns it. 
Well, that's the registration. 
That's car registration. 
That's not a license. 
That's different. 
And I didn't hear that rule applied to car registration. 
I heard that rule applied to driver's licenses. 
Because, you know, a car can be registered to a company. 
It doesn't have to be registered to a person. 
Yes, but if they know the company, they can... 
Of course. 
They can always find you. 
But they can always find you. 
The question is, how quickly can they find you? 
Do you want to give out all your personal information? 
You know, should we have our addresses on the side of our cars, like trucks do? 
I think these rhetorical questions are too forgiving, E, because at the same time, like, you've got to remind the caller and everybody that these are precautions so that this information, when it falls into... 
Because the stories we're talking about is breach, is how this is breached, how this is made portable, and you don't necessarily know who might have it, that this is to protect you. 
And, you know, that is your level. 
Like, you really... 
There should be a case made, if there is one. 
Otherwise, you should be able to say, as I pointed out, whatever level you're comfortable with. 
Whatever works in your situation, but it shouldn't be the opposite, where you're having to prove what fits some criteria in a perceived authority's head. 
Because the way the data is being handled and used in the modern age, I mean, perhaps it was as careless when it was on paper records, but at least it was slower. 
And this... 
Right, right, exactly. 
It's slower. 
Being so forthcoming, it just makes you more vulnerable if a bad actor does get good information. 
When a bad actor gets it. 
So the perceived authorities, I think, need to really build a case if they're trying to make you abide by anything remotely, like what you're cautioning and asking. 
They're valid questions, because those are the questions people, every single day, in every regard, should be asking when someone tries to get them to be ever so honest all the time. 
You know, if a cop asks me where I live, you know, more than just what state or what neighborhood or whatever, for my address, my address is none of your damn business, because they have no right to know that. 
Unless they're serving court documents or something. 
I don't have to tell them my actual address. 
I don't know when that became something we assumed we had to do. 
If you had a red light, you do. 
Well, I'll just make something up then, and they can prove that I'm lying. 
I've never been told this. 
This is something that we've enjoyed in this country, is the right to our individual existence without having to document our whereabouts constantly. 
No, you're driving a car, which is not a right, it's a privilege, and you have a license, which is a license, and if you look at the back of your driver's license, mine says, address change, notify DMV within 24 hours, use label or permanent marker below. 
In 24 hours? 
Wow. 
Yes. 
They will send you a sticker to put on the back of your driver's license. 
This is incredible. 
I must have missed an update, because it didn't used to be like this. 
It did not used to be like this. 
How many times have we heard that, oh, they chased this guy down and they shot him, or they could have just let him go and caught him later? 
Plenty of times. 
They shoot him all the time. 
Wait, what are you talking about? 
First of all, maybe they shouldn't be doing that. 
I'm looking at my license now, by the way, which is a New York State license, and I'm not seeing anything similar to that. 
In fact, the back of my license only has some numbers and doesn't say anything. 
Well, it probably is some variability. 
There's a checkbox for making an anatomical gift. 
Is that what that says, Kyle? 
It's really tiny print and very dim. 
What does that say? 
Mine has a heart with a donor thing under it. 
You can't read it either, can you? 
Do we need a magnifying glass? 
What do you got? 
It says, I hereby make an anatomical gift. 
That's a ridiculous thing to put on the back of a license. 
And yours is checked, and it says, my left footnote. 
There's a checkbox, and I know from the material of this license that no pen is going to stick to that. 
No, but there's nothing here about the address having to be correct. 
And when you look at the address, boy, it's so woefully wrong. 
But the point is, if you needed to get a hold of me, it would reach me. 
It would get to me. 
And that's what matters, not that you have to account for your whereabouts. 
Gila, you had something to say. 
Go ahead. 
I pulled out my license as well. 
In the box under, I wish to make an anatomical gift, which is weird because I'm already an organ donor. 
It says, enter address change. 
You must notify DMV within 10 days. 
Wait, you have a New York State license? 
Do you? 
I do. 
Okay, well, I do too. 
And why does mine not say that? 
Ow. 
I'm sure it does. 
It's just Taylor. 
So on the back where the two boxes are. 
Hang on. 
Kyle's looking at this, and he's got laser eyes. 
So if it's there, he'll find it. 
But yeah, at the bottom. 
Is it there at the bottom? 
Wait, where? 
Where is it written? 
The second. 
The top says, I hereby make an anatomical gift, and then there's a space for your signature. 
And then the box underneath that says, enter address change. 
You must notify DMV within 10 days. 
It doesn't say that much. 
It does not say that. 
There's no way it says that. 
Slow down. 
Slow down. 
It does say that. 
Where? 
I can't even see the letters. 
What is this world where we're reading that as some sort of insistence that we volunteer? 
Again, that's not the question we're really asking. 
You say what you say. 
If it changes, yeah, tell them in 10 days. 
But we might be reading between it in favor of relinquishing that privacy. 
You know, I'm doing the thing I do in restaurants where I can't read the menu. 
I'm taking a picture of it and then zooming in. 
And you're right. 
It's so vague that even blown up, it's hard to read. 
It does say enter address. 
Hang on. 
Change. 
First of all, I don't know how I would be able to fit it in that tiny little box in the back. 
And then I'm going to take your word. 
Yeah, within 10 days. 
Well, you know, I keep all my old licenses and I'll bet that it doesn't say that in the past. 
But I'm going to look into it. 
I'm still not going to do it. 
So good luck. 
Yeah, I mean, that gets back to, I think, the crux of it is how cooperative do we need to be when your privacy is at stake? 
Rob, go ahead. 
Just to address what the caller was saying about driving being a privilege and this being connected to that privilege, I want to point out that my New York State ID card is not a driver's license because I do not drive. 
This is just a state-issued ID, which also says the same thing. 
You must notify DMV within 10 days. 
Wait a minute. 
Hold on. 
Hold on one goddamn second. 
I'm sorry. 
But you're telling me, Rob, that you don't even drive a car and the state is telling you you have to notify them within 10 days if you move, even though you don't even have a driver's license. 
I'm sorry. 
That's some bullshit. 
Yeah. 
I mean it. 
I'll sit down now. 
Just never move. 
Change your address to homeless. 
Uh-huh. 
Yeah, okay. 
Unhoused. 
But, yeah, no, first of all, I want to thank you for getting me all riled up about this and also for educating me about what is said in very dim, tiny print on the back of licenses. 
Kyle, I'm curious what a Washington license might say. 
I have more on licenses, by the way. 
So is there a barcode on the back of your license? 
Sorry, say again, what? 
A barcode of some kind. 
Is there a barcode of some kind? 
I don't know. 
I put my license away. 
Is there a backcode? 
Yeah, I'm sure there is. 
Okay. 
It's got all the information that's on the front of the card in the mag stripe and on the barcodes. 
Uh-huh. 
So, for instance, if you go to a bar and they say, let me see your ID, so they can prove you're over 21 even though you're 64, and they scan it, they have your home address and all the other information that's on that card. 
Okay. 
And a girl was murdered because she was stalked by a bouncer about 20 years ago. 
Furthermore, the last time I had my picture taken for my driver's license, they told me to take off my eyeglasses. 
Oh, wow. 
I don't think you're supposed to do that. 
Well, they did that because they're doing biometric matching. 
Oh. 
So, they've got my picture on it, then there's a little faded picture off to the side, and all of my information, and then it's all on the barcode on the back. 
Uh-huh. 
And I just renewed online because I was up to the five-year limit, and the only thing I could change, I couldn't change my address, couldn't change my name, I had to submit forms for that, so I changed my height. 
That's the only thing I could change. 
So, I'm zero feet and zero inches tall. 
Wow. 
And my eyes are still brown. 
Interesting. 
Well, thanks for the call, and thanks for the discussion. 
And one more thing, quickly. 
One more quick one. 
Yes. 
Kyle registered bodacious-tatas.com. 
Sorry? 
They're still on a parking page, didn't they? 
Uh, what? 
I think that might have been Alex. 
Yeah, that was Alex. 
I've not registered any domains like any domains or certainly nothing like that. 
Yeah. 
Okay. 
I remember the conversation, though. 
Yeah. 
There's 50 articles in New York Times and a bunch of other things about it back 20 years ago when they did the Weibo thing to take down the site. 
Uh-huh. 
So, that would be great if you could, like, just put up a list of those articles to laugh at the Tata group. 
And it's funny that he used a gandhi.net to register the name. 
Because it was an Indian company that did the Tata group. 
Well, we'll have to ask him about that if he shows his face again. 
He didn't, yeah, he didn't stick with us. 
I'm really sorry, because you could have talked to him about that. 
And I'm sure he would have had a laugh and enjoyed the conversation. 
Well, if anyone is in Austin, he's on the highest rooftop. 
Track him down there and say we want to have a word. 
Okay. 
We're going to say goodbye to you. 
And we're going to say, go ahead, Gila, with what... 
We're going to say hi to Rebels. 
Okay, bye. 
Oh, God. 
Thank you. 
Go ahead, Gila. 
Okay. 
So, first of all, I just wanted to throw out there that I was curious if Alex was on the highest rooftop in Austin or the Hyatt rooftop in Austin. 
I honestly wasn't... 
Oh, that's a good point. 
See? 
See? 
Okay, so... 
He could have said Hyatt's, and it could have sounded like highest. 
Any number of things could have happened. 
He said Hyatt with a lisp? 
Is that what you're saying? 
No, Hyatt's possessive, like their rooftop. 
He just makes things difficult for us, doesn't he? 
Okay, so in Pennsylvania, you have 15 days to update your license, and apparently in Connecticut, you have 24 hours to update your address. 
Am I the only one to see something wrong? 
Look, I'm not saying that I have a completely fake address. 
I'm saying it's not... 
I'm giving out too much information. 
You can get... 
It'll get to me. 
Let's put it that way. 
But there's no reason on earth I have to tell a cop, yeah, I live in that house, in that apartment. 
Not doing that. 
I will not do that. 
Well, I think Alex would point out, in the cop scenario, you don't even necessarily need to speak, other than to say, am I free to go? 
Exactly. 
I mean, that's... 
You're right as well. 
Uh-huh. 
So, speaking, you know, further details. 
And this goes far beyond this one credential. 
There are many other avenues that this applies to, simple as a line for coffee. 
Yeah, but this is what I was trying to say before. 
We've just become too permissive in allowing our data to be shared, you know, and just giving it to whoever asked for it without questioning. 
Do you need it? 
Why do you think you need it? 
And it's my decision in the end what I do with it, period. 
Go ahead, Gila. 
Another listener says, I'm coming into this late, but I just turned 40. 
My ID has the same picture from when I was 16. 
Several letters updating, and I just throw them away. 
It doesn't expire for another 15 plus years. 
Nice. 
Awesome. 
Yeah. 
You know, passports, they don't have your address. 
They have information on them, for sure. 
They know what area you registered your passport in, but that's, you know, that's more reasonable, I think. 
All right, 802... 
Well, it's not on. 
I'm sorry, just give me a phone number. 
802-321-4225. 
Sorry. 
Go ahead, Gila. 
I mean, they have your address. 
They have to send it to you. 
Yeah, they have. 
Exactly. 
That's my point. 
They can get to me if they need to. 
I don't have to advertise with everybody who looks at it. 
It's precisely the point, and they, because it is a identification method that will be widely circulated, presumably with your travel around the world, handled by many people, many different societies that may view or seek more or less information about travelers, so they're protecting you. 
That's exactly why they put enough information for you to cross those borders, but not every little detail about how you can be specifically located or contacted and the like. 
So it's a great example to take note of and realize that that's exactly what you should take to as many scenarios as you're presented with in your everyday life, that some information people do need, but not all of it, not all the time, and not just because you're asked. 
And it'll make you, I think, a better filter for the ways information is sought after and used in everyday life. 
And you just, you should be, just as we should increase the cost of our attention span, we should increase the cost of our personal information to who's asking. 
They should be challenged more. 
They should, you know, they should have to have more than just the expectation of an answer right to back up their, their right to that info. 
You know, who's an expert on this kind of thing, bypassing systems like this, kids, teenagers, fake IDs, you know, but they're getting them just because they want to bypass alcohol laws. 
They want to drink. 
Like, okay, you know, I think the, um, uh, the motive is questionable, but the intent is honorable. 
Uh, basically you want to not have to show who you really are to anybody who is looking. 
And I think, you know, if we had that mentality without it being for an ulterior purpose, such as, you know, bypassing a particular law, the only purpose we have is to keep private information, private period. 
And, and, and, uh, that's something I think if we pulled our, our, our brains and, and, and, uh, thought about this some more, we come up with a lot of plans, a lot of, a lot of ways of doing this. 
I think that that's already occurring. 
Uh, maybe a more apt example would be to use certain social media sites that have age, uh, minimum age limits to join and participate in an app or something. 
There is a huge movement towards that from a regulatory side. 
And, and, uh, so people in that, uh, demographic are probably employing similar tactics, not for alcohol, but rather for these, um, for the, the sense of community, at least that's being offered by these, these large media companies. 
I would like to ask everybody listening tomorrow, Thursday, uh, throughout the day, whenever anybody asks you or any, any form on the internet or just anything anywhere asks for your name, consider, giving a different name, consider giving different information, not for fraud, but just because they don't have to know and see how far you're able to get. 
See if you're able to pull it off. 
See if you're able to order food at a restaurant without giving your real name. 
See if you're able to, um, uh, open an account somewhere, you know, uh, just, you know, an innocent account at a store or a website or social media, something like that. 
And use a different name and don't tie it to your real accounts or anything like that. 
Um, make a new accounts where you can receive email to quote unquote, verify that you're real. 
Well, you know, reality it's in the eye of the beholder. 
So let's define our own reality. 
All right. 
I'm, I'm sounding, sounding like a guru now. 
So, uh, should we take a phone call? 
We have a phone call. 
Yeah, please. 
There's a call. 
I didn't expect to get into this whole thing, but you're on off the hook over time and please turn down your device. 
Yeah, no, I'm just driving. 
I just want to make a quick comment. 
The person who called the guy who called in earlier, he said the barcodes behind that driver's license have all your info. 
And I just thought that was just fascinating because I've never knew that's what it was. 
I drive had those. 
I've seen that all the time. 
I'd never thought about it. 
I'd never thought about it. 
You knew it had to be something, right? 
It seems, it seems like that's what they would do, but that's just amazing. 
That just blew my mind. 
So if you could just scan it and everything just pops up, that's just amazing. 
I don't, I don't think too many people know this. 
I don't think too many people know this. 
Well, I think a lot of people will be scanning it now and see what's, what's on there. 
Yeah, I know. 
I just, it's just, it's just amazing. 
Yeah. 
That's all I wanted to say. 
I'm driving. 
You're driving and listening to YouTube at the same time. 
That's, that's, you know, not the kind of thing we get usually, but actually I've, I know I've heard, like, I think it's a predominant thing. 
Like people stream a lot of audio in the car. 
I was talking to a friend and they were amazing. 
They were asking me like, if I use streaming audio, I don't know if the caller has an opinion about it, but I think a lot of people are kind of going away from FM, which we don't like to hear. 
We like when people scan around, especially listening to WBA. 
We're not on FM right now. 
We're on YouTube. 
So that's why he went to YouTube. 
But this is a great way to, to connect up with the show. 
If you have that option while you're listening to one program, you just switch. 
And if you're in a vehicle, we're the safest channel on YouTube because we don't have any video. 
You should not watch video while you're driving. 
So we're the only one that you can really go to. 
I really, I listen more to the YouTube show than I actually do the radio show. 
I just tune in at around this time for the YouTube show. 
Is it because we can use salty language or we just, we have more phone calls? 
It's more fun. 
Everybody just, yeah, you just say whatever. 
We're chill. 
Yeah. 
Very, very, very relaxed here. 
Say whatever. 
Okay. 
Well, have you said everything you want to say? 
Yeah, I'm done. 
Yeah. 
Thanks. 
May I ask where you're driving? 
What area are you driving in? 
Long Island. 
Oh, cool. 
Yes. 
Heading the riverhead. 
Wow. 
Be careful. 
We have some of the most dangerous roads in the country. 
Enjoy your drive. 
I know. 
Yes. 
Be careful out there. 
All right. 
Thanks for listening. 
Thanks for calling. 
That's cool. 
That's cool. 
We don't get many people in their cars calling us while we're on YouTube. 
You forget people are able to do that. 
Yeah. 
Because the bandwidth, the cellular situation has evolved so much that, of course, without FM, there are ways to get audio in a vehicle. 
You know, speaking of phones in cars, though, I use Bluetooth and my phone rang yesterday. 
It didn't go to voicemail. 
I don't know what was going on there. 
Has anybody ever had this happen where, you know, you expect your phone, because I wasn't going to pick up. 
That's another thing. 
You don't have to pick up the phone every time it rings. 
You know, I decided I'm not going to, yeah, you know, I could talk to this person. 
They want to talk to me. 
But, you know, I'm busy doing something else right now. 
I'll talk to them when it's convenient for me. 
That's not rude. 
That's just looking out for your interests like we all should be doing. 
So I said, not going to pick this up. 
I'll deal with it later. 
But my phone had a different idea. 
It must have rung about 30 times. 
I could not believe it wasn't going to voicemail. 
It just kept ringing. 
And I was like, nope, I'm not going to do it. 
I don't care what you do. 
I'm not going to pick up the damn phone. 
And I don't know technically what happened there, how it didn't go to voicemail. 
But it sure didn't. 
At what point, I think you were in an area that didn't have service and it was still ringing. 
How is that possible? 
If I don't have service, how can the phone ring? 
Wow. 
You have a call now. 
I have a call. 
Okay. 
Good evening. 
You're on off the go for time. 
Go ahead. 
Hi, everyone. 
This is Jedi 83. 
It sounds like you're driving too. 
I am actually. 
Wow. 
At work. 
Okay. 
Speaking of driving, I just looked at my driver's license. 
In Florida, we have 30 days. 
30. 
Whew. 
I feel like I fell asleep on duty here and this happened without me realizing it. 
I am going to dig through my old papers and find my old licenses and see if that's always been there or if it's been something new. 
I think I have an expired one I can look at. 
Interesting. 
I don't have it on me, though. 
Yeah. 
I'm also curious what people in other countries have. 
I mean, it's probably more draconian in some places. 
And how do you feel about being forthcoming with that kind of info? 
Yeah. 
I'm not forthcoming about it at all. 
Any other thoughts, caller? 
Yeah. 
Actually, I had a question. 
You were saying that you've got a lot of documents that you use a manual instead of your other name on. 
I was wondering how you actually did that because I don't usually use my actual real name. 
A lot of times, I'd like to put it on elsewhere. 
I was just curious what you've done. 
Well, I mean, there are some things like tax forms. 
You don't use fake names on tax forms. 
And when you're registering to vote, obviously, you use your real information there. 
You know, official things like that. 
But, okay, so let's say you sign up for a credit card. 
There's a credit check, so you have to be a real person, but you can still get additional credit cards and different names. 
And that's completely legal as well. 
So those are people that are your friends or relatives. 
They don't do credit checks on them. 
You can give them whatever name you wanted. 
And as long as there's no fraud involved, as long as the bill gets paid, you can walk around and use that credit card. 
No problems. 
Of course, if you listen to some of these older shows, you'll know that I did have some issues crossing the border a couple of times where I had all these credit cards with different names on them. 
And they didn't understand why that was something that I wanted to do. 
Some of them were quite nice. 
I had band members from Pink Floyd. 
I had their names on credit cards. 
Yeah, you know, it depends what your motives are. 
And if your motives are honest, it shouldn't be an issue. 
It really shouldn't be. 
I've had cell phones registered under different names. 
They seem to have really cracked down with cell phones, though, where now they demand your social security number. 
Why in God's name do you need a social security number to get a phone? 
That makes no sense to me. 
They don't have my SSN for sure. 
But that's because I've had a phone for much longer than they've had the regulation. 
There are certain sub-brands like prepaid and other carriers that are maybe linked to a larger phone carrier that you can do monthly billing if you're lucky. 
That's a fun one. 
And you can even find ways to pay for them outside, let's say, beyond your borders. 
So there's tricks you can do that way with communications carriers and different subscription services like that, but specifically like prepaid and different sorts of accommodations for billing. 
But many times you wind up paying a premium for that and you shouldn't have to. 
You shouldn't have to be penalized because you just want to keep your privacy. 
Cool. 
I appreciate it. 
Sure. 
No problem. 
Is that it? 
Yep. 
All right. 
Thank you. 
Have a good night. 
Take care. 
I think we have time for a couple more. 
A lot of people out there. 
802-321-4225 is our telephone number. 
It's off the hook over time. 
Gila, it looks like you have something to say. 
I do. 
I just want to remind everybody who's listening that we're always happy to hear from you. 
And even if, especially if you've never called in, we'd really love to hear from you. 
We had someone in the chat say they want to call but get cold feet. 
We're very friendly. 
We'd love to hear from you. 
Don't be afraid to call us. 
Thank you. 
Yeah, new people, new topics, new ideas. 
We're totally open and not judgmental. 
We understand it is kind of scary to reach out. 
I don't know if we usually say it's just radio, right? 
Like this is just a stream, just the internet. 
Yeah, it's just the internet. 
Yeah, just if it helps, you could write things down. 
Don't forget to breathe. 
And don't have loud, like heavy machinery running in the background. 
And that should set you up. 
Maybe have a glass of water. 
That helps too. 
Yeah, but don't be drinking on the air. 
Not like drinking, drinking. 
Not any drinking because it just sounds bad. 
But stay hydrated. 
And we have another phone call. 
Good evening. 
You're on off the hook over time. 
Go ahead. 
Hi. 
Well, first of all, the technical report. 
Let me turn the computer off. 
Yes. 
Have we gotten help with that better? 
I've always called you on the toll-free number, and now I was getting a busy signal. 
You know, hi, this is a big news signal, et cetera, et cetera. 
Interesting. 
A busy signal on the toll-free number. 
Maybe it expired or something. 
Ah, okay. 
Well, maybe you would want to look into it. 
But regardless, I got a kick out of the driver's license story, and I have one that goes the opposite way. 
We're the same age. 
Don't ask me how I know, but I know. 
Okay. 
And I have an old, old, old green card. 
The ones that don't expire. 
So every time I cross the border, well, not every time. 
You know, when I get a young prick who gets into his head that is going to get me to get a new green card, you know, and then we get into a back and forth, and I say, why should I want to give $1,500 every 10 years to the government when this one is absolutely free? 
It doesn't expire. 
Oh, but it's an old one and security. 
So lo and behold, they send me to what I call the Borca and Turban Room. 
Yes. 
I know exactly what you mean. 
Been in that room many times, many times. 
Yes. 
But one time, I was with a very Aryan East German girlfriend. 
As tall as me, I'm six feet tall. 
And we found a friendly guy. 
We were coming back. 
You know, this was during the Trump Islamophobia scare. 
So the guy told me, you know why they send you to that room? 
I said, no. 
Because the system is so old, they don't know what the numbers on the back of the card mean. 
They can't read it anymore. 
They don't know, you know, other than your face when you were 20 years old and your fingerprints. 
And there is nothing else that they can make. 
And, of course, your alien number. 
But that's, you know, I got a kick out of that. 
Now, is it that they can't physically read the numbers or they just don't know what they mean? 
They don't know what they mean anymore. 
They can't read them because they're, you know, they're in Arabic script. 
Okay. 
Like all the numbers, yeah. 
Well, shouldn't they keep track of what their own numbers mean? 
I know. 
I know. 
That your tax dollars have worked. 
Wow. 
Another case of, you know, forget the old system. 
We'll just get a new system. 
You know what I would suggest, this is a long shot, but it might be worth it. 
Contact your local senator, representative, even go to their office in D.C. 
They're open. 
They'll talk to you. 
And say, can you write me a letter addressed to people that keep asking me to get a new green card? 
Because, you know, I have this one. 
It's valid. 
And I'd like to keep it. 
And I'll bet you'll get something. 
That's very interesting. 
I never thought of that tackle because I know these people personally. 
I mean, local politics, meaning, you know, activism. 
So I have met them. 
But, yeah, I never thought of asking them for that. 
It will be interesting to just have a conversation on the topic. 
Yeah, absolutely. 
Thank you for the suggestion. 
Absolutely. 
Simple request. 
Yeah. 
And there's probably other people experiencing the same thing that, you know, aren't as educated as you are. 
So the last time I really had a kick because it was last December. 
I was coming back from my brother's funeral. 
And I really needed the nap because I had been to Italy and back in 48 hours. 
I left on Monday night. 
Tuesday, I landed. 
Wednesday was the funeral. 
Thursday, this was all before Christmas. 
I see. 
And Thursday morning I was back on a plane. 
So I hadn't literally had the time to close my eyes. 
So they sent me to the room. 
I just relaxed and I go to sleep. 
And then I hear my name being called. 
And this, you know, tough elderly woman goes, you're free to go. 
Hand the pass to the outside. 
And then I realized what it was because I forgot. 
And the guy says, where is your pass? 
So they won't let you outside the room if you don't give them the pass. 
Interesting. 
Wow. 
Well, I thought I'd share that story. 
Well, keep up the good work. 
It's always interesting to hear you guys. 
And I'll let someone else talk if there is anybody else who wants to say something. 
Okay. 
Well, thanks for your call. 
And best of luck with your travels. 
Thank you. 
All the best. 
Take care. 
Bye-bye. 
I think we have room for one more call. 
802-321-4225. 
Rob Gila, maybe you want to try that toll-free number. 
Maybe it's expired and can't be used anymore if people are saying they're getting a busy signal. 
Or maybe it's busy. 
Maybe somebody else is calling somebody on that. 
But, yeah, we shouldn't give out a number that doesn't work. 
But 802-321-4225, that number does work. 
We've been proving it all night. 
We will definitely look into that. 
It's not our toll-free number. 
A friend of the show set it up for us. 
So it is possible that it expired without us now. 
Yeah. 
These things happen. 
They definitely do. 
But, yeah, this is all very interesting. 
I loved hearing that green card. 
Oh, it's ringing. 
Pick up and see if it's him. 
Me. 
All right. 
Good evening. 
You're on Off Talk Overtime. 
Go ahead. 
Yeah. 
I mean, it's getting way too meta. 
Oh, boy. 
It is you. 
So the number still works. 
Okay. 
Wow. 
Okay. 
I'm going to hang up now. 
All right. 
We could have a lot more fun with this. 
But, okay, fine. 
Thanks for calling. 
Bye. 
See, that caller, that caller just didn't seem to have something to say, you know, it's, it's like they never used a telephone before, you know, it's, I don't know. 
I don't know. 
It takes all types. 
802-321-4225. 
802-321-HACK. 
We have time for one more call. 
And if we don't get it in the next minute or so, then there'll be no more calls. 
That's not nasty, right? 
That's fair. 
Tell us about something. 
Yeah. 
While we're waiting, I'll just remind folks, once again, check out give2wbai.org or call, what's the pledge number? 
212-2950. 
I can't remember. 
212-209-2950. 
Yeah. 
And help out where you can to keep us at Off the Hook and at WBAI and at Pacifica doing what we do. 
What were you going to say, Kyle? 
Tell us about something. 
Tell us, on the topic of new callers, new ideas, new experiences, what people might be seeing or what on the horizon of modern technology and high technology, low expectations, all of it. 
We want to hear what you have to say. 
You know what we totally forgot to even mention is HOPE, our hacker conference that we've been going crazy organizing. 
July 12th through 14th, just about five weeks away. 
We have a whole bunch of speakers listed on our website right now. 
And guess what? 
That's not even all of them. 
There's a lot more coming that we're still in the process of verifying and coordinating. 
The schedule is being worked on, and we're going to have a final schedule really soon. 
We also have a whole bunch of workshops that are happening. 
And again, that's not the full listing. 
That's just partial. 
We have all kinds of activities scheduled. 
We have villages. 
And oh, yeah, tomorrow is the deadline for St. 
John's housing registration. 
So go to the HOPE.net website. 
Check out the link for lodging, and you'll get all the information about that. 
You might see some dates that are out of whack. 
I was looking at the form, and it said something about February. 
But yeah, some things might not be updated, but your info will get through, and you'll be able to register. 
What else? 
And of course, tickets. 
Yes, we definitely need more people to buy tickets because that's how we make the conference happen in the first place. 
So it's super important that a bunch of people, a bunch of people register for that. 
We have more speakers than ever. 
We have more workshops than ever. 
We have more enthusiasm than ever. 
So we need more ticket sales to be able to accommodate all of that because it's going to be an awesome conference. 
Again, July 12th through 14th, full details, HOPE.net. 
And that being said, there is ultimately going to be a capacity issue. 
So we're definitely encouraging people to make your plans as these things are being announced and the deadlines for making those reservations come up. 
We want to make sure people that want to have the opportunity, and that includes getting a ticket and joining the presentation. 
And if you can't be at the conference itself, please get a virtual ticket. 
That way, you're supporting the conference. 
You'll also be able to mingle with other virtual attendees and ask questions of all the talks and things like that. 
It's really a lot of fun. 
It's gotten very high recommendations from people who participated that way. 
Just click on the tickets button on the HOPE.net website for details. 
Okay, we have one more phone call. 
Good evening. 
You're on off the govertime. 
Go ahead. 
Speak up, please. 
You sure? 
Somebody's here. 
Because I don't hear anybody. 
You might have a bad mouthpiece. 
You might have a mute button. 
Hmm? 
No, nothing. 
There's nothing there. 
Last chance. 
All right. 
Please disconnect and see if we get one more phone call in the next minute. 
Otherwise, we're going to call it a night because we're past our time. 
And again, those of you who heard, I imagine the audio is better now. 
Rob Gila, you haven't heard anything, any more complaints about audio? 
Uh, no, we have not heard any more complaints about audio, but I didn't want to pass along one question from tonight's first caller saying, is there going to be a Cheshire Memorial at HOPE? 
And I know the answer, but I want everybody to know the answer. 
Yeah, of course. 
You know, there's a Cheshire Memorial right now on HOPE.net. 
In fact, there's a memorial to a whole bunch of people we've lost over the years. 
So we'll definitely put aside time and space for that. 
It's going to be hard. 
I got to say, it's going to be hard not having his presence for the first time in the history of HOPE. 
Um, and you know, it's, it doesn't get any easier. 
It really doesn't get any easier. 
Um, yes. 
Uh, but there's one more thing I wanted to say. 
Um, I don't know. 
Um, what was it about HOPE? 
Was it about, um, it doesn't matter. 
Okay. 
Let's take a phone call. 
The memorial or the site? 
Um, we do have a call. 
Yeah, we do have a call. 
So I'm going to take the call. 
Maybe I'll remember what I was going to say. 
Sure. 
Good evening. 
You're on off the go for time. 
Go ahead. 
Hi. 
Hi. 
How are you doing? 
Where are you calling from? 
Hi. 
Hi. 
I'm calling in from Pennsylvania. 
Oh, great. 
So what's on your mind? 
Uh, I actually had a question about the HOPE ticket. 
Okay. 
Will they still be available, um, like at the start of July? 
Is it for the finance thing? 
I don't know if we can extend it that, that far. 
I don't know if we can. 
And if we hit our caps. 
The virtual ticket? 
Yes. 
Virtual tickets should be available, um, uh, much, much longer. 
Let's put it that way. 
But we do have to have a sense as to how many people we're going to have. 
We can't, you know, um, change that number too close to the conference. 
Sure. 
That makes sense. 
I just wanted to, um, it's a finance thing. 
So I just, like, I wanted to go and this is the, this is the constraints I got. 
So yeah. 
Wanted to check. 
Thank you. 
All right. 
Well, thanks for your support. 
Yeah. 
Um, great show tonight. 
And, uh, the, the driver's license thing's weird. 
Like, yeah, I've, I've learned that. 
I learned that tonight. 
So, all right. 
All right. 
Well, thanks for your call. 
Have a good night. 
Yeah. 
Good night. 
Good night, everybody. 
Hi. 
Talk to you again. 
You know, and I remember what I was going to say. 
I was going to finish the sentence I started, which was basically about, um, uh, the audio, uh, for, um, for the, the overtime show. 
People, uh, were complaining at the beginning because, and rightfully so, because our audio was, something was bad was happening to it. 
Um, and I think we fixed that. 
And if you want a copy of the show that doesn't have that, go to 2600.com slash off the hook in an hour or two when it'll be up there. 
Uh, and, um, if you want to hear the crappy one, let's go to YouTube because that's where that one's going to, going to live. 
I'm curious if, uh, we get flagged for playing the washing machine music, you know, in case the washing machine music got, um, uh, screwed up, I'm going to try and load it again. 
Um, yeah, but I closed the window, so I have to, I have to, uh, get it back. 
You did another load. 
Yeah. 
That's, that's what you. 
It's the third time I played it. 
So much longer. 
You're running the same load. 
Oh, it's not dirty laundry that you'll find on this program. 
Um, we all know that crap is king. 
What the hell? 
I can't, I can't, you know what? 
I think, am I in the wrong browser? 
Why is it that browsers don't label which browser you're in? 
It's hard to tell which browser you're in sometimes. 
Because they all want to be the only browser for you. 
Yeah. 
But you know, if you don't tell me what browser you are, how am I supposed to know that that's the browser I want? 
Right. 
I mean, the channel's also down on the board. 
Um, I can't find this. 
Hold on a second. 
I have, um, uh, this is a problem that I have, um, with my organizational skills. 
Um, I, I leave a lot of tabs open. 
I have over a thousand tabs open on Firefox in, on one of my machines. 
Uh, the one I'm looking at right now, I, I must have at least a hundred, probably more on my phone. 
My phone, I've got, I've got dozens and dozens of windows. 
I don't know. 
I just don't close them. 
I don't want to close them because I might need them again, but then I can never find them. 
I think it's like separation anxiety. 
You think that's what it is? 
Yeah. 
You don't want to have to research for information. 
Uh-huh. 
You want to know it's there. 
Like, I'm not going to say it's hoarding. 
Right, right. 
Um, okay, I found it. 
I found it. 
Um, so we're going to close off with this once more. 
So let's say our goodnights now. 
Good night, everybody. 
Bye. 
We're going to see if, uh, YouTube flags this because, uh, they have no right to, but they probably will. 
And, uh, we'll see you again next week. 
Good night. 
That's not it. 
You know what happened? 
It, it went to the next, the next video by this person. 
Wow. 
That sounds like a totally different appliance. 
I don't know what appliance that is. 
Hold on. 
How do I find it now? 
Um, yeah, I'm seeing other songs by this person, but not. 
Uh, not that one. 
Can someone else talk while I'm trying to do this? 
Cause it's really, it's really hard. 
I already said goodbye. 
I know. 
So did I back in now. 
I have to say hi. 
Hi. 
Um, how's it going? 
Suggesting bug cat recommended playing big audio dynamite and seeing if we get copyright claimed for that. 
Well, I think we would. 
Why wouldn't we? 
I, you know, I don't make up the comments. 
I just read them. 
I don't know. 
I fair. 
Just because we like a band, it's not going to register. 
It's of course it's going to register. 
Okay. 
I found it. 
I'm sorry for the, um, um, lack of coordination here. 
It's been, it's been rough. 
Uh, to the content ID thing and then get paid every time someone plays a reorder tone. 
Um, that would be something we could at least try. 
I mean, right now we have a phone company truck and nobody else does not even the phone company, you know, cause they've retired that kind of phone company truck and, and the logos and the stripes and all that. 
So it's, and, and we have pay phone and they don't have pay phones anymore. 
Slowly, slowly we're taking over the entire thing and we'll own it all by the time nobody remembers it. 
All right, here we go. 
Good night. 
Hey, laundry's done.