and there's just a mood around around the whole town that was just different you know it was hard to put your finger on it people weren't you know openly sobbing or going hysterical in the streets but you could feel kind of a quiet that isn't normally there in New York and just kind of an intensity there's kind of this look that you know I'm going from point A to point B and there'll be no deviations today. 
there were all kinds of everywhere there were all kinds of everywhere there were all kinds of vehicles all kinds of fire department and medical personnel and police everywhere going in every direction north south east west they're going every place blocking streets and eventually we made it all kinds of fire department and eventually we made it all the way down here and eventually we made it all the way down here. 
the air was really really thick with all kinds of debris you had to have something covering your face or it would have been impossible to breathe. 
and unfortunately by the time we got here which was right about 8 o'clock it was close to 8 we found out that in fact power had been lost to this building and a couple of others in the immediate area and the radio station had been evacuated about an hour hour or two hours earlier and so while our transmitter remained unaffected our transmitter was broadcasting just fine there was no audio signal to the transmitter so basically what that amounted to was silence going over the radio which unfortunately was the one thing that but I think we needed to have more than silence obviously in a time like this and we spent the rest of the night just kind of wandering around just looking at things looking at the reaction I guess just seeing all these emergency vehicles in every part of the city and seeing people you know strangers friends people that just all of a sudden meant a whole lot more you know you know small talk or talking about the devastation or talking about anything just being glad to be around where you could talk to these individual people and it took a long time to get home too because of the aforementioned parking in the wrong part of Queens and taking two hours to find where I actually did park but after that I just kind of kind of didn't feel like going out again for a while I just felt like I guess what a lot of us have been feeling over the past past several days just kind of wanting to hibernate wanting to get away from from all of this wanting to see people and just you know hang out and prize the the quiet times the times with the people that didn't realize mattered so much and it was it was an eye-opener in many many ways because here's something that all all of us all of us all of us were familiar with we had all seen the twin towers of Manhattan there was something we grew up with something we became accustomed to it was New York and within the space of a couple of hours they were destroyed completely wiped off the face of the earth and everybody inside along with them and made you realize how no matter how big something is there's nothing permanent about it it can be wiped off the face of the earth just like that and at the same time I realize that all the small things that we take for granted they matter more than anything and that's kind of what I've been doing over the last week not a whole lot of work not a whole lot of anything I guess defined in our society as productive but a lot of a lot of seeking of comfort and I think that's what many of us in New York have been doing to talk to talk to people here both in the studio and people over the phone see how we made out how we're going to make out in the future I'm glad this place is still here I'm sorry for all the time that we were off the air I wish we could have done more from the off the hook archives September 18th 2001 the week after the 9-11 attacks and you know it was a very personal thing for me very personal thing for everybody I think those are the interesting stories we're all very familiar with them how we responded as a nation how the world responded but I think the more interesting stories are the individual ones what we felt as people and I'd like to open it up to everybody here if you choose and of course you know something private and personal you have every right to keep that to yourself but if anyone wants to say where they were on September 11th 2001 please please raise your hand Alex I see your hand is up yeah sure that was that was something to to to listen to Emmanuel it really wasn't brought back a lot I think I think I was there in studio with you when you had broadcast that um I I do remember that that very night though that we all went out to dinner on the 18th of September one week afterwards and we ran into uh our friend David who used to be part of our crew at that point and I remember talking with him and I believe at the time he was working or had worked in the World Trade Center fairly recently and he told us that his friends he was he was up to I think 25 people that he knew that it that he had lost at that point was kind of uh crazy to hear about it but uh I was on Long Island when this happened I remember uh literally I was putting my pants on to go to work I actually I woke up at my girlfriend's place out on Oakdale I was putting my pants on to go to work I had the television on and I thought to myself what the hell has just happened you know the plane had crashed into the the World Trade Center I thought this has got to be some kind of uh small plane it's got to be a small accident you know a like uh like a Cessna or something like that some kind of you know five or six person plane not a uh 747 or any kind of massive plane there's just no way that could ever happen and then watching this and seeing the debris fall out of the World Trade Center and seeing the you know the people stranded up there and how big this hole was in the side of the building you realize like what the hell is happening here something is is going on and then when the other plane hit that was when it all came together that was when you know you started to put two and together and realize that America was under attack um it was terrifying and I had uh like I said I was on my way to work that morning I mean I stayed home for a while we watched what was happening I was in touch with people at work I was I was working at a software company at the time out on Long Island uh and was also a college student and I had I remember passing by uh Main Street in Sayville at the time and feeling like I needed to do something here it felt you it felt very much like you know we were a nation under attack at that moment you know the Pentagon was hit the World Trade Center was hit you know everything had happened at this particular time and I stopped off at the Masonic Lodge on Main Street in Sayville where I was a member of of this lodge I had recently become a member and I had the keys to it because I um I used to mow the lawn at the lodge I was one of the youngest people there everyone else was kind of aging and I went inside and I took out the American flag and I I hung it out so that it was out there waving on Main Street some kind of you know sounds a little bit jingoistic and maybe overly patriotic at this moment but that at that time it seemed to feel really right to do that and then I went to work and what you said about the people in in the broadcast from the 18th about the people being on the bus and reading the newspapers that that really resonated with me Emmanuel because within the software company where there were this kind of cabal of hardcore programmers that had a deadline and wouldn't be distracted by anything and so they they just decided that they were going to just keep going uh you know we had the television now I was part of the IT department there and we were watching everything and the whole place was is basically in tears and crying and worried anxious and yet you know in the upper left area of this office where the programmers sat there were just people there still trying to be hardcore and tough as if you know this is New York and we just get on with it but uh how silly it is for them to have done that and I hope that they look back at that particular moment and think how absolutely ridiculous it was to not pay attention to what was going on in the world at that really historical moment to not be present with your friends and your family um you know the code could always wait so that that bit and hearing that kind of resonated with me because I I will never forget just the absolute idiocy of continuing to feel like you needed to work at that time it was not a time to work it was a time to be together if I can just um step in for a second Alex I think everybody processes in a different way for some people I think that might have been therapeutic I'm not saying they were being therapeutic maybe they didn't care at all I don't know I just don't think that we can apply our own values for instance I'm not going to say anything about you planting an American flag or describing that as America under attack I view it in a completely different way we all process it very differently and I think that's that's what New York was getting during that period I'll buy that I'll buy that sure we can give them the benefit of the doubt in hindsight yeah I we went actually to an Afghan place it used to be on St. 
Mark's and I just remember the people the the people who are going there going to the staff and saying are you okay you know are you being hassled are you being threatened that was a concern of New Yorkers for their fellow New Yorkers wherever they happen to be from we were all caught up in this in this nightmare yeah I remember that Afghan place I do it was it was excellent well it's it's amazing Kyber Pass it's out of business so we can say what it was Kyber Pass it's a great place anyone anyone else have uh recollections Rob yeah um at that point I was living on Long Island and I had the day off I was very fortunate to not be at work when this all happened but um I had the day off so I had stayed out late the night before uh probably went out to see a movie or something and my plan for the day was to just whenever I wake up uh as I spent a lot of my days off I would go into the city I would uh you know visit uh folks do some shopping whatever putter around um a non-specific day uh just in Manhattan um but uh I the first thing that happened to me that day was my phone rang which was next to my bed and it was my best friend shouting at me to turn on the television and I like groggily asked what channel and she said just turn it on and obviously it became apparent that what was going on was on all the channels um and my job at the time was I was manager of an arcade in the Sunrise Mall in Massapequa and so the first uh thing I had to do while waiting for you know after I got a handle on what was going on we talked a little bit she was coming over driving over to pick me up um while waiting for her I checked with my colleagues uh the company I worked for had locations and employees in New York City and elsewhere and people traveling people driving through New York so I checked on folks made sure that we didn't have anyone that we hadn't heard from um everything was obviously shut down for the day and so once uh once I knew that things were not uh not worse in those respects I just took the day and my friend and I were you know had the I guess luxury comparatively speaking of just sitting at her place and watching everything go down um her internet connection which at the time was through AOL um sometimes worked sometimes cut her off the phone lines were undependable um but uh we were able to get on enough to sort of get the sense of okay um people we know are accounted for um and and just proceed through the day and it's funny you mentioned the American flag thing because Alex because I remember one thing that uh one of the newspapers had done I think it was I think it was Newsday had uh I think the next day just included a big paper American flag with every issue and when I eventually returned to work the mall opened back up and everything um the first thing that happened was my friend who ran the newsstand in the mall was handing these flags out to all the other uh store operators and we each had them just hung up um in some prominent place because whether or not you felt uh all that jingoistic about it it was something that we had to do we had to just acknowledge in some way what had happened um and that that uh that that just that just continued there was a numbness there was the following days and weeks the realization that what was in the air even out on Long Island this plume coming from the site and the knowledge of what it is we were all breathing and then uh to say nothing of the the social um repercussions that continued watching colleagues in the mall have to be escorted to their cars by security because um they looked Middle Eastern in origin whether or not they were the increased everyone was on on edge on tenterhooks and people were ready to blow up at each other there were there were a couple of fights in the arcade which was not a common occurrence I think before that and yeah there there are there are things that uh I I still consider a lot when uh you know especially around this time of year but uh yeah I think uh I think it's worth remembering I I actually was listening to Off the Hook when you made that broadcast on the 18th whether or not it was in the arcade because I used to put it on the speakers and in the store um when it was on uh so whether it was there whether it was at home I don't remember but I remember listening to it and um hearing your voice again Emmanuel was um comforting and uh something from before this happened that uh you know I could be assured was still going on you know belated thanks thank thank you for that anyone else Kyle go ahead oh yeah um I've told this a bunch of times in a bunch of different ways and I I think itself the the act of recollection it's it's it's tiresome in some ways but it's also important to keep I guess sharing and retelling it in a different way but um I I have a lot of different ways of thinking about it and I'm not trying to say anything like you pointed out it's up for everybody's uh interpretation I don't know even if how I came to understand all of it is the right way like it's just how I ended up reck uh reckoning with it personally but um it occurred at a time in my life when I was there was like excitement and optimism for the future I was um just starting in college and uh I was sitting basically I woke up and I'd already like kind of uh met people and was socializing and feel like on that kind of high of like being new and having fun and and that that revelry of of what is you know being on your own for the first time and so there's no bitterness or any kind of negative to it and I had a lot of work ahead of me presumably but um so and of course my and my course load reflected my interest which was media and um and audio video all the sorts of production stuff that uh that I was kind of you know intrigued by or thought maybe I could play around with and make something of and at the time a lot of that stuff was changing with digital formats and stuff so it's kind of cool to um think about what my future might be in that and so the class I was in was a mass media class for for that track and um I was at uh in a in a big city in Chicago at a religious school and um I don't know I think it uh I didn't know what it was in the class because basically I woke woke up and like showed up at this early class and they just said you know um turned on the tv and like uh we sat there and watched it I didn't I just remember being in there and not knowing what it was like you know how you go to a class and you don't know what the curriculum calls for that day is this movie day or like we would watch um some of the like jackson cats and media foundation stuff and so like you got it eventually we did I think and that was where um like critical theory and a lot of that stuff started um making me think about like uh sociology and and um the political economy and all of that in media and uh so like are we watching some instructional or critical film of the news but it was just us watching the news and then that was it I just remember not knowing what it was and the confusion of it I think confusion might be something a synonym for a lot of people and I guess uh how to keep it short and uh come out of that I just remember like a an assistant or TA like handing out sheets that were describing different sources of media to look to and that was what the professor was encouraging us to do I remember that as a takeaway and I think that um point Alex made about hearing your voice I was listening to the show at the time so I was a listener I think and going through I think all the way through um 2004 to the invasion even I was listening uh off the wall uh started as well and I think your interpretation of it helping people grapple that was one of those sources of media if that makes sense because like Pacifica or you know community radio in general was uh one of those sorts of non how shall we say mainstream forms of media and that's I guess where I would say like today like what it is and how we look at it I don't know I don't really like a lot of the ways it is looked at because to me it completely derailed a lot of that revelry or optimism for what I had to look forward to personally and in the larger sense for America and for the world uh and I feel like it took it completely um it basically was the only thing people spoke through from then on and then it was morphed into conflict and it became um um sort of the the the the seed of what we might say is polarized politics now and stuff and so like I look at it now and I'm I'm kind of like I kind of hate it for that for me I know that may be like kind of selfish a little bit but and then I also look at like well what did I do in light of it and it honestly made it incredibly impossible to look at uh school as like fun made it impossible to think I was already kind of tangled up and making probably uh just you know all the right mistakes for a college student so I had a lot going against me but I had a lot um of support as well but I it was incredibly hard to think throughout that year and and I'm not a a exceptional scholar in the first place so uh maintaining like just my ultimate path was not there at that institution I moved around a little bit I found my own way through it all which is I think um a positive that I might have made of it or that came out of it but it itself um like I said peppered every bit of how I looked at what I would do in and it was sobering like I had to really grow up quickly from that initial kind of um uh naivete going into um higher education so it was a real rude awakening for me and just is instructive with so many of the choices good or bad that I've made and the way I've thought about the world and even my kind of uh uh skepticism about stuff today or just like my tolerance for stuff that then I would have protested now I'm just like well it's more of like you know I've fought this over and over again like I'm I'm a different person now at the through the through the other side of it if any of that makes sense but I I don't know it's it's hard to put into words well you did it beautifully thank you Gila so I think it's apt that I'm sharing my story last because mine is not a New York story um mine is not even a Chicago story um I was living on the west coast at the time I was a senior in college and I was also living in a large city and going to a religiously oriented college I was a senior and my phone rang at 6 15 6 30 in the morning and I answered the phone I should mention I'm a very sound sleeper that is actually relevant to the story my phone rang and I said was who's calling me and it was my mother and she said are you watching tv and I said no I was asleep and she said you need to turn on the tv and I said I was sleeping why do I need to turn on the tv and she said there's been an attack and god forgive me I was wondering why she was telling me about something that had happened in another country I had no idea it just I could not fathom that this might be happening here and I turned on the tv I went down to a lounge in my dorm where I was standing around in their pajamas um classes were canceled at my teeny tiny university and we actually had an assembly so everybody could be together and then on the 12th classes were canceled again and we had listening circles and talking circles and there was something weird about being in California at the time because everything felt so far removed because I was on the other side of the country and because at the time I was adamantly anti-New York City never wanted to live here never wanted to spend much time here didn't know where anything was I had no concept of where anything was and I knew that I had some friends who were going to school here and I was panic contacting all my friends who were up at Columbia are you okay are you they said we're nowhere near this I said okay but I was I had no idea one thing though I distinctly remember from the listening circles on the 12th was saying that the thing that upset me the most beyond the loss of life and beyond the attack itself was this idea that we didn't know where it was coming from at least initially that there was no place to focus the energy and anger and the fear it was just out in the ether and because everybody for the most part I think we can say was feeling fear and confusion and agita and there was no place to put it so it just felt like everybody was very silent and I my friends and I were supposed to go see a movie we had plans to go see a movie that night we were supposed to go see wet hot American summer actually which we heard about this movie it was only playing in small theaters we were ready it was great and all the movie theaters were closed um I remember a friend of mine saying she was terrified because they're going to get us next and I said excuse me I understand you're scared it's a very frightening thing that happened I said but people in the city where we are don't know where this school is I don't think international terrorists are coming to find us um but that Sunday I had to fly I was going to Texas I was at the airport um I was at the airport for about three hours getting through security and that day it didn't feel like the security theater that it is now and I didn't mind having this experience I didn't mind that we were literally standing in line for three hours to go get on an airplane because we were all trying to figure out what things were going to look like afterward we were allowed to keep our shoes on at that point but and then this idea that when anything happens now we have to clarify where it came from it's a fascinating aftermath I think um last week I was in my office and my boss said that she got a google alert about a flight that had been diverted diverted to JFK because a passenger had a health issue that turned out to be diarrhea and she said why does the world need to know that and I said it's unfortunate and I feel for the person I feel terrible but the fact that it needed to be clarified that there was a health issue but it wasn't COVID this entire flight was not about to come down with COVID no one was dead on the plane no one had punched a flight attendant it wasn't terrorism the plane wasn't broken this was just old-fashioned diarrhea and the fact that whatever happens the first thing that has to be said is we don't think it's terrorism a blackout right it could have whatever it is that now that we're in this place 23 years still 23 years later where everything has to be we don't think it was terrorism we're confident it's not terrorism I think there was some sort of fundamental shift that day where you were looking over our national shoulder in a way that we weren't before and we really have been since and I think that's the thing that sticks with me the most wow thank you for that thank you all for your recollections you know we're all New Yorkers in one way or another and I think everybody listening is a New Yorker in one sense or another we all have stories and I encourage people to reach out to each other listen to the stories there is nobody who is not touched by this of course if you weren't born yet obviously but the people who were around then and and sentient um they all have different perspectives different ways of looking at this traumatic and historic event that took place 23 years I can't believe it's 23 years ago tonight we've done um two other shows on September 11th we were supposed to do one on September 11th 2001 uh but the station was off the air uh so this is the third time we've done that and I think um I think it's the most thoroughly we've um we've thought back on it I'd like to um give listeners the opportunity as well on overtime which follows this program on youtube um you can call up and uh tell us your recollections uh starting at eight o'clock I'm gonna do something unusual I'm gonna give out the phone number on this show which we don't usually do uh and the phone right now is off the hook um in case there's any wise acres out there that want to uh call now uh the phone number write it down and and call us after eight o'clock p.m eastern time it's 802-321-4225 that's 802-321-HACK is what that spells um and um yeah if you have a story to tell please keep it keep it uh short and um you know not too short but uh keep in mind there's there's probably a lot of people that want to um uh call in as well um yes Alex go ahead Alex once again you're muted really all right you know what what talk to us can can you can you hear me now yeah your mouth was moving and nothing was coming out so I assumed you're muted that's probably faded a bit now though is it are the levels worse now for god's sake Alex tell us what you want to say yeah uh one of the things that that always stuck out to me was the um I think about this every year too was that uh the new yorker halloween edition of the new yorker and you know how they have different covers every week that were always fascinating that the halloween edition of the new yorker in 2001 and I think I think about it and I choke up every time because you remember that um you know it was a totally different world back then when september 11th happened and our our policemen and our firemen were our heroes back then I mean these are the people that were going down into the rubble and removing bodies and looking for survivors and the police dogs and you remember seeing the images of these firemen coming back entirely covered in soot you know the only the only portion of them not covered in soot was under their eyes from the tears and you know it was it was an incredibly moving thing and this cover the new yorker has a scene of kids either in brooklyn or it looks like the west village they're in front of some brownstones or something like this obviously a new york scene and every single kid is dressed up as a policeman or fireman in that halloween cover and it's uh it's really moving to look at it and think back at that time I remember the um uh the season premiere of saturday night live back then where the firemen were on stage and uh in fact giuliani was even there that was that was back when people uh thought giuliani was capable of doing some good and I even praised him on the air of this station which is something that believe me is a is is a one offer uh but um he he at the time seemed to be a comforting figure you know america's mayor I think he was called but I remember he was he was there at the opening of snl and uh one of the cast members uh asked him so can we be funny now and he said sure try try something new which you know it's it's the laugh we needed back then um all right um enough recollection I guess uh you know we have to look forward um one thing I just want to conclude with um I remember I don't know if it was on this station or another station or another show or just a private conversation but I remember it being brought up that this horrible event was also a tremendous opportunity for the world to come together and unite against against evil against injustice to make sure something like this never happened again and boy did we blow that boy did we make it as bad as we possibly could make it tsa patriot act all kinds of uh military actions countless lives lost for for for no good reason but um that's how things go sometimes all right um we have only a few minutes left but we should we should talk about some other things that are happening we spent a lot of last week talking about um elon musk and what has become of twitter and his his war with brazil which I think is still ongoing I haven't really heard much about it haven't really been paying much attention to anything he says with one exception um last night you might recall there was there was another event where every channel was broadcasting something it was it was an ass whooping from uh from pennsylvania um and um apparently um elon musk is once again getting called out and this is really disgusting creepy a comment he made to taylor swift after she publicly endorsed kamala harris for president he took to twitter and said fine taylor you win i will give you a child and guard your cats with my life i mean how inappropriate how creepy can you possibly get and and this guy is is running a major platform sending people to space it's it's really it disturbs me it disturbs me so much you know what i'm gonna do i'm gonna report this account right now if i can figure out how to do it on twitter um and um report elon musk to twitter as being inappropriate you all can tell me not to oh i say go for it let's see what happens there yeah so yeah that's just a bizarre story i did not know that emmanuel i don't think there has been any developments on the brazilian front either okay i'm reporting the post uh that's what type of issue am i reporting hate abuse and harassment uh violent speech child safety privacy spam suicide or self-harm sensitive or disturbing media impersonation or violent and hateful entities and i think i can only choose one of those i'm going to go for abuse and harassment does everybody agree that's the right one i do think that's fair um emmanuel are you still do you still have a twitter account oh yeah yeah absolutely do you still use it how else do i harass my my my various elected officials i will be curious to see what happens after you submit this report well uh let's see um okay so under abuse and harassment now i have um uh some choices of the best match unwanted nsfw and graphic content nsfw not safe for work uh targeted harassment um i think that's kind of the the lead right now insults unwanted sexual content and graphic objectification i'll i'll go for that one uh violent event denial or inciting harassment i think the unwanted sexual content is definitely um the one to choose there and i'm submitting thanks for making x helping make x better for everyone i have reported elon musk's post not elon musk the account i'll do that next but the post i feel good i feel good about this everybody should do the same thing because that means tracking down his his horrible post in the first place but sometimes sometimes you have to get a little bit dirty to uh to to get justice um one other thing and i think we'll talk about this on on overtime because we're kind of out of time now but there was a fascinating story last week uh about um a u.s media company that turns out is um accused alleged to have been funded by russia linked to some right-wing social media stars uh and it's the the company is known as tenant media you guys hear about this story it's really uh kind of kind of disturbing fascinating yeah yes emphatically yes um this is this is a a kind of uh thing i think we all are kind of we should be sensitive to be aware of um when you're endorsing things and um doing things uh for cash uh you should investigate and find out about the ownership especially if there are fictitious uh uh benefactors or um uh people that are sponsoring it but they the people who were accused of this alleged thing are feigning ignorance i just found their names i was searching for the names in the whole story uh benny johnson tim pool and dave rubin tim pool by the way has been on this show many years ago i'm sorry i fell for what he was saying seemed like he was fair-minded at the time maybe he was maybe he was he hadn't completely bought into right-wing propaganda um but the signs were there the signs were there just like the signs with elon musk were there um before he went uh totally wacko uh but in this particular case as carl said yeah they're claiming they're the victims that they didn't know they were getting what is it uh how much money per per video well there there are different arrangements one um hundred thousand dollars a post there was others that were uh sort of salaried situation where there was like four hundred thousand a month or something there was different criteria they didn't ask where the money was coming from in some cases they asked a little bit uh others there were there weren't any questions asked and they were to basically keep doing what they're doing and that's the the way this kind of thing is done you have people that are already sort of useful and you just want to make them more useful to you and it is that in the interest of state actors and large entities uh on on the global stage that uh will will want to amplify that because it benefits um their strategic interests so i and i think that a lot of what we have noticed in hacking over the years is that um there are um shells of shells of shells in these in in the the darker parts of the web and you need to understand that and i think that's something we talk about when we're educating people that are new they need to know um that they could be quickly become affiliated with something that is uh connected to these types of things in ways they they might not understand we're gonna have to continue this conversation on overtime as we are uh out of time now please support wbai give to wbai.org give the number to wbai.org write to us oth at 2600.com tune into off the hook next wednesday 7 p.m and overtime coming up at eight o'clock on youtube follow the link um on 2600.com the main page and uh we will see you there give us a call and uh tell us your stories from from uh 9-11 if you have any we will um we'll see you next time stay free   And welcome everybody here on YouTube for Off the Hook Overtime. 
I made it, I think. 
Kyle, it looks like you made it too. 
Yes. 
All right. 
And we're up to Firefly. 
Did we make it? 
And are we on YouTube? 
We made it. 
We are still catching up to our delay on YouTube. 
So, oh, there we are. 
We found it right. 
So YouTube is delayed. 
And Gila, I assume you have also made it over. 
I have indeed. 
Yes. 
And Alex. 
Yeah, barely here, but I'm here. 
Barely here. 
Okay. 
Well, it's good everybody is here. 
I just want to thank you all. 
You all told such interesting, moving stories. 
And that's why we do this. 
So we can share our accounts, our observations, our theories, our thoughts. 
And you all did a really amazing job on that. 
It's a very difficult subject. 
And now we're opening up the phone lines for listeners. 
802-321-4225. 
We gave the number out on the air, so there's going to be extra competition for those people. 
We already have a phone call, right? 
Yeah. 
So I'll say good evening. 
You're on Off the Hook Overtime. 
Go ahead. 
Oh, I'm sorry. 
Hold on. 
Hold on. 
I'm going to do that again. 
I messed up. 
I didn't press the right button. 
I'm going to say good evening. 
You're on Off the Hook Overtime. 
Hi. 
Can you guys hear me? 
We hear you. 
Yeah, thanks for doing the tribute. 
I really appreciate it. 
It's the kind of thing that your memories are very good. 
I wish I'd kept a diary or something, you know, because obviously it's a lot of years have gone by. 
But I do recall I worked for a company in Midtown, and it was in a skyscraper, and for several weeks after the attacks, we had to have a bag check before we entered the building, which obviously I, you know, never expected that there'd come a time that there'd be some type of horrific incident that would require me to have my bag checked by security before I entered the building. 
So that was pretty weird. 
And also, I remember, I forget how long it was, but it seems to me that it must have been like, I think, a week of programming on television where they had no commercial breaks. 
I don't know if any of you guys remember that, but I was watching, you know, the local channels, 247. 
And it seemed to me that I think it might have been like at least five or six days where it was just straight reporting, where they didn't go to commercial break. 
And I was like, that was pretty weird. 
Do you guys remember that? 
That was just around the clock news coverage. 
Yeah, well, who could break for a commercial in a crisis like that? 
Not only were the news networks, the cable news networks going, but local channels as well, because, yeah, it was New York. 
And I think pretty much every real TV station, and when I say real TV station, I mean, you know, not what Channel 31 turned into, you know, which is an all, I don't know, cop show channel, not what Channel 9 has become. 
They used to have news. 
They have nothing now. 
But the other ones, yeah, certainly. 
They had wall-to-wall coverage. 
And I got to say, you know, I'm glad how the debate turned out yesterday, but I really, it bothers me that they had to do it right before, the day before 9-11, because I really would have liked to have had, like, a day of recollection that, you know, obviously all the cable channels, it's wall-to-wall coverage of the debate. 
And nobody's even talking, they didn't even spend 30, maybe spent 30 seconds about the anniversary. 
Well, that's what they did today. 
Today, they certainly did that. 
But, yeah, I hear, but, you know, one thing that I was kind of surprised at during the debate was that they didn't pander to 9-11. 
Neither one did, really. 
I was expecting them to be, you know, I'm a supporter of the 9-11 families more than you are. 
It wasn't even brought up, I don't think. 
No, it wasn't. 
But I just feel, I remember last week you guys said you were going to do this, you were promoting this week's show. 
And I was thinking to myself, Gore Vidal once said that we're the United States of amnesia. 
And I think asking people for their recollections, I think, unfortunately for many Americans and even many New Yorkers, this is like asking people for their recollections of the battles of Lexington and Concord, that it's just totally alien to them. 
And it really, it does bother me that there's, we haven't really found a way to preserve memories of this thing. 
It just kind of bothers me. 
I think in a couple of years, they won't even read the names. 
Or if they read the names of the victims, they won't even cover it on the radio or on TV. 
It just kind of, I mean, people don't even remember January 6th or the COVID lockdown. 
Well, I think people remember January 6th. 
I think we've seen evidence of that. 
No, but I mean, Trump has not faced the consequences. 
No, that's certainly true. 
I mean, he has a 50-50 chance of becoming president, even though he inspired an insurrection. 
And that should cause us a lot of grief or, you know, cause us to pause. 
Well, the us is the problem. 
It's what's wrong with us, because right now it's in the hands of the people. 
And if the people actually elect someone like that, then, you know, you can't say media. 
You can't say politicians. 
You got to look at the people and say, what's wrong with you? 
Yeah. 
Well, I sent you guys a link to this great documentary, if you haven't seen it. 
These two French brothers, documentary filmmakers, filmed a New York City firehouse. 
Yes. 
That was actually aired on CBS, I believe. 
Oh, okay. 
Well, if you haven't seen it in a while, I mean, it's definitely worth re-watching. 
Yeah. 
So thanks for doing this, and keep up the great work. 
Thank you. 
Thank you for your call. 
Take care. 
And our phone number, 802-321-4225. 
If anyone has any stories of 9-11 they wish to tell us, or anything else, really. 
Yes, Alex? 
What was the documentary? 
I didn't get the gist of it, or the reference. 
It was a documentary that these French filmmakers were making about New York City firehouses, and they were making it on September 11th, when all hell broke loose. 
So they got remarkable footage. 
And it didn't air for a while because of the language that was in it. 
I don't mean French. 
I mean, you know, four-letter words and things like that. 
So once CBS was able to get past that, they aired it on TV. 
Go ahead, Gia. 
We, in the chat, did mention to folks that we are inviting people to share their stories with us. 
I said, you know, call in if you can. 
If you can't, if you can't get through, or you'd feel more comfortable sharing it via text, you're absolutely welcome to put them in the chat. 
We've already got one from a listener named Larry, who says, On 9-11, I was working in an FAA building in Cambridge, Massachusetts. 
We watched the traces on the air traffic control network as all the other flights were grounded. 
Every TV was on CNN watching it unfold. 
We evacuated early, along with most of the rest of Boston. 
Wow. 
Good recollection there. 
I think something that came to mind is how different technology was at the time. 
So, like, finding out about it, these cable outlets and broadcasts in general were the way to find out as much information. 
I mean, I think SMS and some browsing features were available on the mobile phones of the era, but that was another thing that made that getting information and figuring out what it is difficult. 
But also, I'm imagining how much time it took for the conspiracies and all of the, like, infodemic... 
Not much time. 
Not much time at all. 
The, like, chaotic noise and incorrect, inaccurate stuff. 
It's kind of like the politicians had the Patriot Act ready to go. 
We were better off without that. 
But yeah, and then that legal stuff, the, like, things that, the fallout of it that was to come after. 
Go ahead, Gila. 
I was also thinking of something, a story my parents told me. 
My parents lived in Omaha, Nebraska at the time, and they were watching the national news feed, and there was a crawl of all the national sites that were closed, and things were, you know, the airports and the national monuments and whatever, Disneyland. 
And they said, but there was also a local crawl of all the things that were closed, and that happened to be at the exact same time that the words on the national feed, Mall of America, closed. 
There was this teeny, tiny mall in Council Bluffs, Iowa, that was almost dead 23 years ago. 
And at the same time as the words Mall of America, closed, were going across the screen. 
It said Mall of the Bluffs, closed, because that apparently was a place people were concerned about. 
And it was just everybody, no matter how far removed you were from New York City physically, I think everybody took on board that this felt like it was happening to all of us, and the Mall of the Bluffs in Council Bluffs, Iowa, needed to be closed. 
Is the Mall of the Bluffs still around? 
Give me one moment, please. 
All right. 
I think we should all go. 
And I'm wondering also, like, there are documentaries probably being made about January 6th, and the way we're interpreting media, a lot of these events are so covered, like there's a glut of coverage, because there was so much that was filmed, that the documentary, it was made by the actors or people there, and there was, like, some stuff that was aired, but I don't think there's an appetite for it, and there aren't a lot of outlets for it. 
It just seems like it's not been a subject matter people want to deal with, because it is immediately a presidential cycle. 
Interesting. 
Before you start, though, Gila, I'd like to say one thing. 
I do hope that somebody checked to see whether that mall was actually closed, because it could have been Bluffin. 
I'm going to just fade you down for a little bit here, Alex, until you get that out of the system. 
I would like to confirm, though, that the Mall of the Bluffs was closed for the last time on December 31st, 2019. 
It was demolished a year later, and to the best of my understanding, Menards has purchased the site and is going to be building a giant new store on the property. 
Strike three. 
Okay. 
Well, you've got to visit malls while you can, folks, because you don't know what you've got until it goes back to wilderness. 
Or another store. 
Rob, do you have something? 
Yeah, this is true. 
As I mentioned on the air, I was working at the mall in Massapequa at the time, which, as I understand it, is also no more nowadays. 
And there are some Gazi plans on what they want to do with that whole area. 
Nothing sadder than an abandoned mall. 
Actually, no, there are plenty of things sadder than that. 
There's nothing sadder than a mall being constructed on wilderness. 
That's the saddest part. 
And we've had enough damn malls, so we've done it. 
We've done malls. 
We're finished. 
All right. 
Let's move on. 
Yes, Kyle. 
Yeah. 
There's a phone call. 
Oh, there's a phone call. 
Okay. 
Let's take this next phone call. 
Good evening. 
You're on off the cover time. 
Go ahead. 
Yes, I'm calling from a hackerspace, makerspace or hackerspace. 
And do you have any idea what the subject is tonight, Rebel? 
I do. 
About the 9-11 thing. 
Now, I just want to mention that one caller that said, no, everybody's forgetting. 
Look, everybody forgot about December 7th, didn't they? 
I mean, you know. 
What, Pearl Harbor Day? 
Remember. 
Yeah, we still remember. 
Oh, are we going to go back to the Battle of the Bastille? 
I mean, how much history do you want to cover? 
I know. 
I'm just saying people kind of forgot that and kind of remember. 
I don't think they forgot that. 
I think they just figured that's so damn far away that it's not relevant to this conversation. 
Anyway. 
It's 1941. 
I mean, you know, I got the year right. 
I get credit for that, don't I? 
We're almost a quarter of the way through this century. 
Yeah. 
Yeah, we're close to the 2040. 
I just would like to point that out to everyone on a general basis. 
That's scary. 
Wow. 
Almost a quarter of the way through the century. 
And the way things are remembered changes, that's something else I'm getting from the whole September 11th thing, the memorialization and what is memorialized, what is remembered, and how it's spoken, how different things are spoken through the language of it. 
And it is its own discourse. 
But the celebration, the remembrance, the memorialization changes through time and has, and it becomes just, I guess, ringing bells and saying names all day long. 
And will that change? 
Will that go on forever? 
I mean, different events have and evolve different traditions over time, and even those traditions can change. 
Of course, and as well they should. 
I mean, you can't be doing the same thing for hundreds of years. 
I mean, some people believe that, but yeah, things change. 
Things become further back in history. 
Other things happen that replace them. 
You know what's weird, though? 
I realize we're living in the 20s, and no one says that. 
Why does nobody say it's the 20s? 
It's roaring. 
It's not roaring. 
No, the 1920s, yeah. 
But, I mean, even people don't say the 2020s, or they just don't say 20s. 
When I was growing up in the 70s, we said, this is the 70s, and boy, they suck. 
I remember that. 
It's just boring. 
It's apathetic. 
Nobody's doing anything interesting. 
The 60s, that was cool. 
Maybe the 80s would be better. 
But the 70s, man, what a waste of time. 
We said that back then, but I don't hear anybody talking about the 20s. 
I think there's probably two reasons for that. 
One is that when you say the 20s, people definitely still think the 1920s. 
Do they? 
Really? 
I think so. 
And number two, if you're going to say the 2020s, that's odd. 
Okay, now there's a third reason, which is that 2020 as a year sucked so hard and so bad in so many ways that we don't want to invoke its memory in that way. 
So you're saying just because of the pandemic, the whole decade has been sacrificed. 
I don't think that's fair. 
I don't think it's just because of the pandemic. 
A lot of crap went down in 2020. 
The first two decades, you know, we didn't have names for those either. 
We didn't call them the aughts, even though people are doing that now. 
We didn't call them the teens. 
I didn't hear anybody say, oh, we're in the teens now. 
I mean, what's going on? 
In the 1900s, we had this figured out. 
It was the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. 
Here, we can't seem to get started. 
Did you not hear people calling it the aughties? 
Never. 
And if they did, I dismissed them immediately as being obnoxious. 
I think they don't say it because they're saying it every time they reference the date. 
Like when you write the date, you're saying 2024 or... 
Out loud? 
Well, I think when people are talking about today's date or the year, you're saying it's 2024 then in that year. 
But you're not saying it's the 2024s. 
About living through the 70s and the 80s and the 90s. 
We said it then while we were living through it. 
We're not saying it... 
I don't know. 
There's no decade pride anymore. 
I think that's my point. 
Oh, you know, I forgot Rebel. 
Sorry, Rebel. 
We put you on the... 
I'm so sorry about it. 
I went off on a tangent there. 
Okay. 
Did you know that Google is getting rid of Google Voice? 
They're doing away with Google Voice? 
I like the way you say Google for some reason. 
That's my reaction too. 
Can you repeat all of that? 
I just got sort of distracted by that. 
Go ahead. 
When I went to the Google store on 10th Avenue or whatever it is. 
Oh. 
Near the main office, or they're not in the office, but near the Google... 
Stop saying it, please. 
It's just making it worse. 
Okay. 
Okay. 
So you go by... 
And 9th Avenue and like 13th Street, whatever. 
I went there and I said, my Google Voice isn't working. 
They said, well, we're getting rid of it. 
We're doing away with Google Voice. 
Are you using your Google Voice right now, Rebel? 
No, I'm not using Google Voice. 
What voice is this you're using? 
Because I don't think it's your Google Voice. 
No. 
They're getting rid of the Google Voice service. 
Stop saying it. 
I have some experience with this. 
I actually had a number that I was using, and they had this game where if you didn't use it enough, they would threaten to take it back from me. 
Uh-huh. 
And eventually they just took it. 
They took your phone number away. 
Um, and I haven't talked to the person that has it now. 
I'm sure they're loving it. 
I did by accident. 
Yeah, you accidentally contacted them. 
It's a whole long thing, but... 
Well, you had a WhatsApp account, I think, attached to it, right? 
All right. 
I don't want to get into exactly how... 
And then I tried to contact you on WhatsApp. 
I wound up talking to this complete stranger who now knows all your friends and family and is more beloved than you are. 
I told you the perils of WhatsApp. 
Yeah, that's what... 
Your identity has been stolen, Kyle. 
Wait, I don't use it for anybody I know, but... 
Anyway, this person ended up knowing you because that's not the point. 
Oh. 
The point is, they took it back, and it doesn't surprise me that they're... 
I don't know what the game is. 
They want, I guess, content over it. 
Like, they want all your voicemails and all your conversations, and if you're not using it that frequently, if it's just sitting, they want to, I guess, allocate that to somebody else who will use it that way. 
I think they just want the phone number back if you're not using the phone number. 
You know, if you make a phone call, I think that would have counted. 
But if it's a free service, why do you have to keep using it? 
Like, it seems like you're... 
It's free to you. 
I don't think they just conjured a number up out of thin air. 
I think they had to do something to get the number, and... 
Okay, but it wasn't, like, that kind of thing to begin with. 
No? 
I'm just relating... 
Yeah. 
...to the fact that it might be going away, because it seems like they didn't really want to allow you to have it and use it the way you want. 
Because the way I want is not using it all the time. 
Right, right. 
But they'll be sunsetting it, I'm sure, as they say. 
I mean, what else do you know about this going away? 
Because good riddance is what I have to say. 
Uh-huh. 
Well, you know, we're using Google Voice right now. 
Are we? 
This phone number is a Google Voice number. 
Yes, Gila. 
Yeah, but this is what they want. 
They're happy, so they're not threatening you, right? 
Gila is waving her hand frantically and jumping up and down. 
Go ahead. 
No, I am waving my hand frantically, because it appears that they're not ending Google Voice. 
They're just changing it slightly. 
Legacy Google Voice is being sunsetted. 
It'll be a more higher-pitched Google Voice. 
Am I correct? 
Yes! 
Okay, wow. 
Gee whiz. 
I mean, what, I, I, I've, I've no, I have all the words and none. 
Like, so, so, why do I care what they are doing? 
Oh, you know what? 
It doesn't apply to me. 
I don't care. 
But I, I think that the, um, the rumors of Google Voice's demise, um, are slightly exaggerated, if not just full-out, not a thing. 
Uh, so, Rebel, you may have been misinformed. 
Oh, Manuel? 
Uh, yes. 
Did you hear what Gila said to you? 
I kind of hear she was very low, but my, I want to just make a point that my Google Voice number stopped working. 
Then when I asked the people at the Google Store, they said they're doing away with Google Voice, or they're doing away with some service, maybe the phone number service or something. 
So I'm just telling you guys, because I know you use Google Voice. 
There are Google stores? 
I've never been to a Google store. 
There's a Google store on 9th Avenue in like 14th Street by the Google Voice. 
Wow. 
Okay. 
I have to, have to go there and, uh, and taunt them a bit. 
But, um, well, I, I wouldn't believe everything you're told. 
Okay. 
Well, that's what they told me, that they're doing away with the service. 
That's why my Google phone number stopped working. 
Um, now, the other thing I wanted to mention is that at the 2600 meeting, I used my laptop, Wi-Fi, that, uh, the, uh, the building, the city called the building's Wi-Fi. 
They blocked 2600 from being viewed on their Wi-Fi. 
Uh, who, who is this that blocks it? 
Uh, the city called, you know, the city of the building where the Hue is, the city called people, they, when you go on their Wi-Fi, you cannot go to city to 2600 on Wi-Fi. 
Wow. 
Well, I mean, we're familiar with this. 
There's a lot of, uh, companies that block us and say that, you know, we're a hacking site and all that when really we're not. 
We have, we have this show, uh, is, is, is on our site and not much else. 
If you, if you tether on your phone or if you go to, if you go to another Wi-Fi, like the link, New York city, if you get that, you'll be able to go to 2600. 
Now, when I went to the Best Buy store today, uh, I went to the app where they had the little Macintosh, like they may have like two or three Macintoshes, Apple computers on, they do not let you go to 2600, but when I tethered it on my phone, they still don't let you go to 2600. 
When I went on, when I went on, uh, another Wi-Fi, like if you could look at what Wi-Fi hotspots there are. 
When I went to, I found like a free one that like, I don't know, like, um, uh, I think it was a Starbucks there and I went on their website, their Wi-Fi because they were like right here. 
And so I went on Starbucks website, you know, still no 2600. 
How do they do that? 
I know Starbucks goes to 2600. 
I've used them. 
They're AT&T, I think. 
No, no, no. 
They, it's, I tethered on my phone onto the, this, this Apple computer on a Best Buy. 
It still doesn't go to 2600. 
Alex, you look like you're in a Starbucks. 
Can you check this for us? 
No, no. 
Starbucks, when I go to Starbucks, you can go to 2600 on Starbucks on their Wi-Fi, but it's just at Best Buy on the Apple computers. 
Wait, what? 
Does anybody understand what he said? 
You, you can go there and, uh, at Starbucks, but what? 
But you can't go there on the Apple computers at Best Buy. 
Well, why are you bringing up Starbucks then? 
Why are we talking about Starbucks? 
Because I could go to Best Buy's, you know, they're all hooked onto Best Buy's, uh, Best Buy's Wi-Fi. 
I figured, okay, I can't go to 2600 on Best Buy's Wi-Fi. 
I'll go to Starbucks Wi-Fi or I'll tether it on my Wi-Fi on my cell phone. 
No, you can't go to 2600.com. 
How does that work? 
I, I, I don't understand what you're doing. 
Does anybody here understand what he's doing? 
Can someone speak up? 
Okay, we're all clueless, apparently. 
We have no idea what you're doing. 
You're somehow using Starbucks while you're in Best Buy? 
No, I'm going to, all right. 
At the 2600 meeting, I go to their Wi-Fi. 
You cannot go to 2600 website on their Wi-Fi. 
If you, like, tether it on your cell phone or if you go to another Wi-Fi hotspot that's nearby, you will be able to. 
That's not surprising. 
They have a lot of electronics. 
Next, next place. 
Yeah, that's Best Buy. 
How does Starbucks enter into this? 
Please tell me. 
Because if I go to Starbucks or, let's say, Chicopee or something or another Wi-Fi hotspot, then I still, if I'm at Best Buy, I'm using their, their computers or their, you know, Apple's or their, whatever computers they have on the display, you will still not be able to go to 2600. 
Oh, yeah, you're saying if you use a computer that belongs to Best Buy and you use Starbucks Wi-Fi network, it'll still be blocked. 
Or anybody else. 
Because it's blocked. 
Or anybody else. 
Because they have it apparently set to the machine or to their internal network, regardless of what. 
Rob, do you have something to add to this? 
Yeah, I hate to derail the discussion and completely change the subject. 
But Rebel, I know that you're a local guy and you and I knew each other back, back at that point. 
I wondered if perhaps you were comfortable sharing your thoughts about what happened on September 11th, 2001 and what was going on with you. 
Well, I will after we answer this question. 
Wow. 
Okay. 
I know where I was. 
I knew where I was. 
I could tell you where I was. 
But after we answer this question. 
What do you want us to do about this? 
We can't fix the problem. 
Okay. 
No, no, no. 
I'm not guessing. 
I'm just wondering how it works is that if I have a laptop, I'm at the 2600 meeting and I log on to Citicorp's Wi-Fi or the Hughes Wi-Fi or whatever it is, and I go to my Google Chrome browser and type 2600.com, it does not work. 
Okay. 
So what I think the answer here is, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, is that you're encountering a network block or blacklist of our site that when you connect to a particular Wi-Fi network, when you connect to a particular Wi-Fi network, you find that it's blocked. 
Now, the same thing can also be set on a local network. 
That means if you're using a computer inside a store that belongs to them, regardless of what network you connect that computer to, it can also be blocked. 
If, however, you walked in there with your laptop, you walked into Best Buy with your laptop and connected that to Starbucks, you should be able to get through. 
Right. 
All right. 
I was wondering how they do it on their network, like whatever Wi-Fi network you choose. 
It's a setting. 
Oh, so you could set it so that your browser doesn't go to certain websites? 
You're using their computer, right? 
Yeah. 
It's not your browser. 
They have control over that network, so they can implement all kinds of whatever they want and impose that on the customers that are, in most cases, just the general public who could be going to places they're not interested in them navigating to, so they control it in their network. 
They can program their computer to start flashing a red light and blaring a siren if you type 2600. 
They can do that. 
That's their computer. 
So they take all five computers or six computers or however many computers they have there and go on Safari on each of them and go to the settings on Safari. 
I don't know exactly how they do it. 
It might just be something system-wide that no matter what browser you use, don't go to this particular IP or this particular domain name. 
What do you mean system-wide? 
What do you mean system-wide? 
The system that they have in Best Buy for all of their computers, which I assume they all go through the same system. 
Depending on the OS, they could have their own firewalls implemented in the operating system, and if they orchestrate that when they install it. 
Apple. 
Apple. 
They're using Apple. 
Okay, well, they can use Apple to do that easily. 
Rob, you have something else as a second request for Rebel to tell a story? 
Well, there is software for retail establishments and that sort of use case where you have a computer that's there for demonstration or if you're running a Wi-Fi network that people might connect their own devices to, and it's always a feature of that software that you can decide to block certain sites, or you could decide to block categories of sites, or you could use a block list, which might be a commercial thing or a free thing or whatever, or some kind of list they can subscribe to to say, here's all the sites that have to do with hacking that you can block. 
Here's all the sites that have to do with adult content that you can block, and a lot of them just automatically use these lists and block things wholesale, and you can do that on the local machine. 
You can do that on the local network. 
It can happen anywhere along the process between the screen you're looking at and the open internet because they own every step of that system inside, the computer, the network, everything. 
And it's very, very common for retail establishments to block anything that they might worry that might be found objectionable, quote unquote. 
Let me try and explain this in a way Rebel might be familiar with. 
Let's say that you're calling us. 
We can set Google Voice or whatever we're using to block your number so it never gets to us. 
Now, if for some reason we don't do that and we see your number showing up on caller ID, we can opt not to pick it up. 
You see, there's two different ways to block you. 
There's many ways to block you. 
Okay. 
So it's basically the city court, getting back to the city court thing. 
That's just the network doing that. 
That's just their Wi-Fi. 
It sounds like their Wi-Fi. 
Yeah. 
Because you're not using their computer. 
You can go to a proxy, but you can go to a proxy and get around it. 
Well, I mean, why don't you just connect to a different Wi-Fi network? 
What? 
VPN. 
Oh, your VPN. 
You could use a VPN. 
I don't know. 
In some cases, yes. 
Some cases, it's not a problem. 
But you could be, you know, the more you're doing on their systems, the more you got to wonder, like, okay, how much more are they interested in what's going on here? 
And you're obviously in their store, so there could be cameras. 
And then the actions you take if you're installing software onto these systems while you're there, you are then running on the clock, basically, before someone takes an interest in you modifying what is there, which is essentially the hardware, and even if you got down to that, like reinstalling something or doing something quick enough, you're better off probably just plugging right into their wall. 
And even then, you'd be detectable and, you know, probably be limited in whatever you're appearing to be on their network. 
So, yeah, I mean, there's lots of things you could be doing, but you're already getting the warning that they care about what people have their hands on in-store. 
And, you know, the easiest thing, though, is if you have network on your phone, simply tether to your phone and connect that way. 
Right, yeah, that's in the Citicorp building. 
That you could do. 
That's anywhere. 
Right, not in Best Point, because I tried tethering it on my phone. 
No, no, no. 
Listen, it's your phone network. 
You're using your phone company. 
You're tethering to your phone. 
It's not going to be affected by a block in Best Buy or Starbucks or anywhere. 
No, it will. 
I just tried it today. 
I tried the Apple computer. 
I don't think you're doing it right then. 
That's when the block list is in the Apple computer that you're using. 
So no matter what you connect it to, it won't see what you want it to see there. 
If you're using your laptop and it's tethered to your phone and your phone is using your phone network to connect, the only blocks that you will experience are blocks that your phone company has installed, which I don't believe include us. 
No, I'm talking about tethering. 
I had the Citibank, the 2600 meeting, to go around their Wi-Fi thing. 
You could just go to other Wi-Fi hotspots if you want to. 
Yeah, your phone being one of them. 
Your phone being one of them. 
All right. 
Or you could go on a VPN, right? 
Yeah. 
Do you have a 9-11 story for us or not? 
Yeah, but I just want to ask... 
No, no. 
We're done with this. 
Quickly, 9-11 or you're going to have to wait for the next one. 
Okay. 
Let's see. 
I was doing my laundry. 
I slipped leave. 
That's the whole story? 
Yeah. 
Never disappoint, Raul. 
Thank you for your call. 
Good night. 
Interesting topic, though. 
I was up early, too, and I'm never up early, and you can't wake me up with a phone. 
You can't wake me up by calling me to tell me to turn on a TV set. 
So how did I see 9-11 as it was unfolding? 
I was on jury duty that week. 
Yeah, so I had to be up early. 
That doesn't happen very often. 
And then jury duty got canceled. 
We have another phone call? 
All right. 
Good evening. 
You're on Off the Hook Overtime. 
Go ahead. 
Is it me? 
Please turn down your radio or computer or whatever it is that's glaring on the background. 
I'm trying. 
Okay. 
All right. 
Cool. 
So I guess it's me. 
Well, one comment. 
How appropriate that Rebel would hijack the transmission or program, whatever you want to call it. 
Too soon. 
Too soon. 
Way too soon. 
I'm sorry. 
I couldn't resist. 
In any case, you know what else I was going to say. 
But the topic, can we get back on the topic that you were treating in the program, which sounded rather interesting? 
We can try. 
So that's really what I wanted to say. 
I want to hear what else you have up your sleeve. 
Well, we have up. 
We've already revealed our sleeves. 
So it's your turn now. 
I know. 
But what I mean is, is there going to be more discussion of that? 
If people discuss, you're a person. 
So, yes, you're invited to discuss where you were on that day. 
No, this is not what was being discussed on the radio. 
Or did you just say that now this is the topic for overtime and I missed the first few minutes? 
I'm not sure you listened to the right station. 
We were talking about 9-11. 
I was listening to BAI. 
And you were having a rather interesting conversation. 
Okay, Alex, I think you have something to contribute here. 
Go ahead. 
I think the caller is referencing what we discussed at the end of the program, which was that Russian influence operation. 
Oh, the last couple of minutes of the show. 
Okay, well, the whole show was pretty much something else. 
You said you were going to continue on overtime. 
Okay, fair enough. 
And the contributions and all that. 
So more of that, please. 
Okay, well, we... 
I do remember very well where I was. 
But, you know, I think that's a little more interesting. 
Well, it is. 
So, you know, it's not necessarily a choice between the two. 
But, yeah, it's something that happened last week. 
And it was basically charges laid out by the Justice Department saying that this particular company is working as part of a Kremlin-orchestrated influence operation, which was targeting the current election. 
And it's linked to right-wing commentators, millions of subscribers on YouTube, other social media platforms. 
I mean, I think we got the gist of it out, that that's what was happening here. 
Alex, do you have anything to add? 
Yeah, I mean, I think this is a really fascinating story because it goes and shows you the length to which other nations can go and will go in order to try to influence people on social media. 
And social media is such an influence operation attack vector. 
And there are so many open polls in this, you know, there's basically no defense against any of this, right? 
Because the whole thing is motivated by money. 
And basically through proxy, the Kremlin was able to utilize a husband and wife couple to pay influencers that had millions and millions of followers and subscribers on social media platforms. 
I think the total was like a little over six million or something, which is, I believe, more than the circulation of The New York Times. 
And all it took was a little bit of money for them to parrot whatever seemingly ridiculous and far-right political ideals the Russians wanted to espouse that would show dissent in this country and benefit Donald Trump to become the next president of the United States. 
So it's a really, I think, scary story and goes to show you why social media is such a scourge on this country. 
I just want to point out that the value is really that relative reach through those, that audience that's built into those actors they're paying. 
And it's a weird thing. 
I think that the people that are enticed by this are in different circumstances themselves and money is money. 
So for them, it may have been a windfall for the little effort it would have taken to produce content, as they were already, and not think of the reach they're gaining, the entity that they're becoming the mouthpiece for through this transaction. 
And it really isn't that much money, and you have to really have the kind of, I think, ability to think critically before you know it, or otherwise before you know it. 
I mean, the entity behind things you're working on might not be who you think they are, if you're sort of kind of caught up in your own bravado. 
And especially in this vector, which is a visual and new and sort of richer medium that has a lot to do with sort of popularity and less technical things, less verifiable things. 
You know, these sort of personality value, the value and ability for people to cash in on that in this way. 
It's really just they're setting up cameras, they're establishing themselves through this low-cost streaming ability and whatever other publications and things they're working through. 
But the production costs are low enough, so if they're enticed, they can become the arm of interested parties who are willing to pay that and pay much more. 
Now, if I can just say we've been talking about the influencers, the people who actually make the videos, but the founders are pretty much the ones being implicated here as well. 
Tenant Media's U.S.-based founders, they're not named in the indictment, but they certainly should be, I think. 
Business records filed in Tennessee reveal two people connected to the company, Lauren Chen and Liam Donovan. 
A Twitter account for Donovan identifies him as the president of Tenant Media, and his Instagram account describes Donovan as Chen's husband. 
A private message between the two in May of 2021 reads as follows. 
So, we're billing the Russians from the corporation, right? 
Two weeks later, another message said, also, the Russians paid, so we're good to bill them for the next month, I guess. 
My God. 
It's not that they're criminals here. 
It's just that they're bad at it. 
They're really bad at covering things up. 
Chen is a right-wing online influencer in her own right. 
She has appeared in some of Tenant Media's videos, has more than 500,000 subscribers on YouTube. 
The Russian state-controlled media RT lists Chen as a contributor for several articles in 2021 and 2022. 
She's also linked to the conservative youth organization Turning Point USA. 
As of Thursday afternoon, Turning Point USA had deleted webpages featuring Chen. 
A YouTube video referenced in the indictment further describes Tenant Media as a project of Lauren Chen and her husband, Liam. 
And then Blaze Media, a subset of the Glenn Beck-founded conservative outlet, has since fired Chen. 
So, it's a whole big kerfuffle here. 
Go ahead, Rob. 
Yeah, the element of this I'm finding particularly entertaining is, in the article about this, it quotes a couple of the influencers who are saying that, oh, we're obviously the victims in this situation. 
We didn't know that, you know, this was, the Russians were paying for this and whatever. 
But that doesn't acquit you, because if you're being, if you're being given things by a foreign power trying to spread disinformation to say, and you're being paid for that, okay, that's crappy. 
But if the product you genuinely make and the thing you intentionally put out there as your own work is worth paying for by a Russian or, you know, any foreign actor who is intentionally spreading disinformation, that means you're the disinformation. 
And either way, like, you're the baddies. 
Okay, so, let me ask Alex this. 
What is the crime exactly? 
Because if it's spreading disinformation, doesn't Trump do that every time he says anything? 
Yes. 
The crime, I believe, was that they failed to register as a foreign agent under FARA, the Foreign Agent Registration Act. 
So if you are acting on behalf of a foreign power in the United States, you need to register as a foreign agent. 
And they didn't do that. 
And the failure to do that is a federal crime. 
So, like, if they had set up Tenet in such a way that it was disassociated from wherever their funding source was, then this sloppiness may not have gotten them caught. 
Well, that's right. 
And that's why they registered and Tenet was, like, squeaky. 
Yeah. 
If they registered as a foreign agent, then they couldn't be charged under FARA. 
But who would believe them, then, if it became known they were working for a foreign government? 
Well, right. 
And that's why that text message was so important, which was because they identified that they knew at the time that they were working for the Russians. 
So how is it they're not charged? 
I think they are. 
No, the founders were not named in the indictment. 
Oh. 
Maybe they're cooperating. 
Yeah. 
They're the ones that did it. 
They're the founders. 
Well, remember, the media company wasn't even referenced or mentioned. 
That's true. 
It was unnamed. 
CNN figured out who it was. 
I think that Chen and the other person were charged, but I guess they weren't. 
And it's just the influencers themselves. 
But I guess it would still be the same charge, but it seems like it would have been much more relevant for the owners of Tenet Media to have been charged under FARA. 
Given that text message. 
Anyhow. 
Yeah. 
But I'd be curious. 
I'm sure there's other charges as well. 
Probably some kind of obstruction of something or another. 
And yeah. 
I don't know. 
Conspiracy or something like that. 
I'd like to read what the influencers said. 
But let's see. 
We are disturbed by the allegations in today's indictment, which makes clear that myself and other influencers were victims in this alleged scheme. 
That is. 
They only have the last name. 
Johnson. 
Who's Johnson's first name? 
Boy, they spread it out through this whole story. 
I don't know what Johnson's first name is. 
Tim Poole, on the other hand, said, should these allegations prove true, I, as well as the other personalities and commentators, were deceived and are victims. 
So, I mean, that's the playbook. 
That's what they're going by. 
They're the victims here. 
The ones that get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to make videos because they claim they would have just made them anyway. 
I wonder, in the case of, like, hackers for hire and, like, how we look at this and, like, do we sympathize in that case? 
If someone unwittingly is, like, offering services or doing something for hire and they didn't actually kind of look into it and realize who was actually interested in the kind of work they were doing. 
I think there's a lot of these kinds of perils because this information space is being used in sort of a weaponized way. 
And I don't have as much sympathy or I just, like you said, it's a play because a lot of what they say, I mean, they're saying this with their chest. 
Like, they're really serious about a lot of the things they've espoused. 
It's not like they're unaware of the context of their words and then to do it for hire like this and then be surprised when they don't. 
I'm sorry, Carla, do you have something to add? 
Yes. 
You know, as you said, it's a playbook. 
And I wonder if they weren't just, you know, just in case we get caught, this is the excuse. 
But they knew perfectly well who they were working for. 
And they didn't care in the best case scenario. 
In the worst case scenario, they were accomplices with the media company and not just, you know, unwitting participants. 
And I wonder if the FBI is going after them for that. 
The other thing, and Alex may confirm this as a legal expert, part of the indictment, including the names, may have been sealed for whatever reason. 
Is that possible, Alex? 
Yes, it's definitely possible, especially if they were some kind of cooperating witness. 
There's likely a number of documents that the public aren't going to be able to see on this. 
I think you're absolutely right about that, caller. 
And also, I've realized as well that, did a little bit of research, it turns out that the Justice Department doesn't actually allege any wrongdoing of the influencers. 
It actually accuses two employees of RT, the television station Russia Today, of funneling about $10 million to a Tennessee-based company, that's that tenant company, for the Russian-friendly content. 
So it's these two employees of RT that are charged. 
So maybe the influencers themselves are cooperating to help with that, and they get to say they had no idea. 
Does anyone believe that these people just were blithely making videos, collecting $100,000 checks, and had no idea who they were working for? 
And we're supposed to believe them, and they don't get charged with anything, while helping a hostile government override the election here? 
That's what I mean. 
Like, if this is part of the fifth domain, if this is part of an attack surface, how is this cool? 
How are we chill? 
Well, let's at least destroy their reputation, you know? 
I mean, their actions kind of do that for them. 
I'd like to take it a step further. 
There is no direct connection to the Trump campaign. 
But, you know, in the woodwork, this, quote, Tennessee company is being connected, and the wife was an executive on whatever conservative, I forget the code name. 
But Trump has been working with these entities and then denying any accountability. 
And, you know, this is an old project of mine. 
I would like to start a RICO case against the Republican Party. 
It's a racketeering institution that is trying to deny people their rights to vote on a gigantic scale. 
And, unfortunately, we'll see that on November 7th or 8th. 
I forget the exact date. 
But they've been working for years for this. 
This is, you know, no better than the actual mob. 
So they should be prosecuted with this law that is on the book and has been on the book. 
What do you think, Alex? 
No disrespect to the mob, by the way. 
We have to be careful. 
I mean, I can certainly appreciate the sentiment of the caller. 
But I think it would be near impossible to invoke the RICO statute against the Republicans. 
I just think it's, you know, you need to improve a lot of coordination. 
And also, I think it's just, like Emmanuel said, it's almost insulting to the mafia. 
It seems like they're so discoordinated in some ways. 
And, you know, and it just has this disastrous result on civil rights. 
It just kind of happens to be that way. 
But, yeah, but I can appreciate the sentiment, though, behind that. 
Well, I hope that was enough discussion for you. 
And thanks for getting us to talk about it. 
Thank you. 
Keep up the good work. 
At least you heard it here first. 
As I said, it's an old idea of mine. 
I would love to keep going. 
All right. 
Well, best of luck with that. 
And we'll definitely be in the courtroom cheering you on. 
Okay. 
We have time for, I think, one more phone call. 
802-321-4225. 
802-321-HACK. 
This is Overtime. 
Coming away every Wednesday, 8 p.m. 
after Off the Hook on WBAI, which you should support. 
Give to WBAI.org so we can have all kinds of conversations that get transmitted throughout the New York metropolitan area, as they did 23 years ago. 
We have another phone call. 
Good evening. 
You're on Off the Hook, Overtime. 
Go ahead. 
Good evening, gang. 
This is Tim in Connecticut. 
How are you today? 
Hey, Tim in Connecticut. 
How are you? 
Not too bad. 
A couple of quick stories about 9-11. 
I was working nights at the time. 
My nephew from Chicago calls me to ask me to turn on the TV. 
And that's how I was presented with it. 
But one other story, I had to fly for work a couple of weeks later. 
And on the way back, I happened to be sitting in a row with a military person. 
And we were chatting, you know, because of the current events. 
And he made mention that he was a pilot. 
And he was flying that day, or the next day, I believe it was. 
And he said the thing that he will remember most of all is the fact that when you're in the air with military hardware, you can see almost everybody. 
And he said that only military IDs were in the air. 
And it was very, very spooky that this once-crowded airspace was just so empty. 
Yeah, I remember that day when I was going back the next morning after going into Manhattan to presumably do a show I never got to do, pretty much out all night with friends. 
And it was dawn when I was going back through Queens. 
And I just remember how quiet it was. 
There was nothing in the sky. 
You know, maybe an occasional military plane because the airspace was completely closed throughout the country. 
And, yeah, that was bizarre and weird and kind of a once-in-a-lifetime thing. 
There's nothing going on with air Queens, I mean, or LaGuardia. 
Most definitely not. 
And as far as the people accepting money from various sources, maybe they were taking, I don't know, maybe a, oh, you know, the new policy in government where it's not a bribe if it's before, it's a tip when you do it afterwards. 
Yeah, I think they might have gotten paid before, though. 
I'm not sure. 
That would have been good advice. 
You don't care where it comes from if you're bending the rules, you know, if you've gone that far. 
You know, I just think, at the very least, can we just never believe anything these people say again? 
Because this is their integrity level. 
Mm-hmm. 
Okay, well, I just wanted to pass that on. 
I'll let other people get on the line. 
All right, well, good to hear from you. 
Take care. 
I'm with you guys again. 
Have a great night. 
Bye-bye. 
I did say that was the last call, but it was a short call, so I don't know. 
I have a couple of minutes. 
That's right. 
We should set a hard end time for this show. 
He got off the line so someone else could talk. 
Like, 9 o'clock, we're done. 
Because sometimes we go to, like, 9.30, sometimes we end at 8.30. 
But if we just say it's going to go to 9 o'clock, maybe overtime gets the same level of respect as off the hook, you know? 
We have 4 minutes and 30 seconds. 
That's a disadvantage. 
Remember when we would do the two-hour shows in WBAI and the station? 
To me, it always felt like a really long time. 
But I feel like we do these two-hour shows now almost every week. 
I guess you weren't around for the three-hour shows we did occasionally. 
Uh, maybe I was at some point. 
It's all in the archive, 2600.com slash off the hook. 
And we have another phone call. 
Oh, Joy. 
We have it connected, Kyle. 
Okay. 
And good evening. 
You're on off the hook. 
Over time. 
Go ahead. 
I just wanted to share my 9-11 story. 
I was a student at a borough of Manhattan Community College, BMCC. 
And I had a late-night class the night before 9-11. 
And my class ended, like, I want to say, like, 8.30 or something. 
And I had to make a phone call. 
So I went into that building, the 9-11 building. 
This is, like, late at night. 
They used to have phones on the first floor. 
But you mean the World Trade Center, but you said the 9-11 building. 
The World Trade Center, yeah. 
Okay, I remember all those phones and the escalators near them. 
And, yeah, I remember this. 
Yeah. 
So I went in there to make some telephone calls. 
And while I was there, somebody I knew from, like, high school, he came out of the escalator. 
And he works in the building. 
He works on top in that building. 
And I was like, wow, I haven't seen you in a long time. 
And we were shaking hands. 
And I was like, wow, he works up there. 
And we got to talking. 
And I was curious. 
I was like, I've never been up there before. 
You know, he said he works on, like, the top to higher floors. 
And while we're talking, he asked me if I want to see what it's like. 
He was like, well, you want to see what it's like? 
You want to tour? 
I was like, yeah, sure. 
I'd love it. 
I've never been up there before. 
So we got back on the elevator. 
And we went up there. 
We went up to, like, I don't know what floor it was. 
It was very, very high up there. 
And I remember looking through the window. 
I was like, wow, this is like I'm flying in the air. 
I'd never been. 
I remember commenting that I've never been this high in any building before. 
It was like the furthest up I've ever been. 
And I was looking out the window, and it was just surreal. 
And then that was it. 
And then I just went back down, and I went home. 
And then the next day, this building was knocked down. 
It was blown up. 
And I was thinking. 
I was calling this guy. 
I didn't know this guy. 
This is a guy just. 
I hadn't seen him since high school. 
So I started looking for his number, because I was thinking, gee, I wonder what happened. 
And he wouldn't answer the phone. 
And I was just calling and calling, because we exchanged numbers that day. 
But eventually, I was able to get in touch with him something like maybe two weeks or three weeks after, a long time after. 
And I thought he was dead on us. 
I thought something happened to him, because I was like, this is just so strange. 
I just saw him the night before. 
I wonder what happened. 
And it turned out he was okay, though. 
He lived, and he was fine. 
But I also got a job. 
After the 9-11 thing happened, I happened to get a job, like some type of a transport job. 
We were driving around vans, you know, like the rescue people and all the work that we're doing out there, you know, removing debris and all that kind of stuff. 
And I had a night job that I was doing there. 
And I recently found out that they're actually having these things, almost like, I don't know if it's a lawsuit, but they're actually compensating people who worked there, who worked at this 9-11 site. 
And I saw this on Facebook. 
This law firm was like, hey, listen, if you worked at 9-11, if you worked at that site back then, you should contact us, because, you know, we may be able to compensate you for whatever. 
So I did. 
I was like, I started looking for my pay stubs to see if, you know, maybe I have a pay stub from back then. 
And I found one, and I contacted this law firm, and they said, hey, you may be able to get some money for whatever. 
So I just recently started that, and let's see what happens. 
Let's see where that goes. 
I don't know, you know. 
Well, have you been affected physically by being down there? 
I haven't been affected, and I'm not going to say that I ever was. 
I was saying to myself, I'm not going to make up stories. 
That's bad karma. 
I'm not going to say I have whatever, you know, but, you know, that's bad. 
Well, you'd have to prove it, too, some other way, I'm sure. 
But I don't know what the legal aspects of this is. 
You might still be entitled to something just for having put yourself through that. 
That's certainly possible. 
And I may have something in the future. 
I mean, I'm still, you know, I'm just like in my 40s. 
I'm still, I guess, relatively young, I suppose. 
You are one of the luckiest people I think I've ever talked to. 
I mean, you got to see the top of the World Trade Center the day before it was destroyed. 
It was surreal. 
Your friend survived, and thank God you're healthy after working on the site. 
So I hope your luck continues. 
Yeah, I know. 
Very weird. 
But I just wanted to share that story. 
I enjoyed your show, though. 
I think Alex has a question. 
Go ahead, Alex. 
Yeah, you must have been, because you were at BMCC, right? 
Is that over in Tribeca, I think? 
Yeah, yeah. 
They used to have a building. 
I'm not sure if that building is still there. 
We used to call it the F-Man Building, Fittiman Hall Building. 
And it was that building, it was just right next door to the World Trade Center. 
Yeah, yeah, it's like right there. 
Yeah. 
Yeah. 
You know, yeah, I went to school. 
My class just ended just the night before. 
It was just strange. 
It was just weird. 
I was just telling everybody, like, I was just in that building just a few hours ago. 
Literally, like, let's say, 12 hours later, the building was gone. 
You know, it was just weird. 
You know? 
Amazing. 
It was just strange. 
Very sad. 
Very sad. 
I kept thinking, I kept thinking all those people I'd seen in the building when I was going up there, when I was in there, I wonder how many of them lived. 
I kept thinking, I wonder, probably a ton of them were dead. 
You know, it was just surreal. 
Well, night shift, I don't know. 
Maybe they didn't, they weren't supposed to come in until later. 
I don't know. 
But, yeah, it's definitely history that we all lived through. 
Yeah. 
All right. 
Thanks for sharing that with us. 
Enjoy the show. 
All right. 
Take care. 
That's a great call to end on, I think. 
Wow. 
That's an extraordinary story. 
A lot of good stories. 
Even Rebel's story was touching, in a way. 
What was it? 
Three words? 
Yeah. 
But, um... 
Oh, my God. 
I'm just glad we have each other to talk to and share these memories, albeit unpleasant memories, but also comforting just to be able to tell our stories. 
And, um... 
Again, everybody you know has a story. 
Whether it's about this or something else, and talking to them is an important thing. 
So, um... 
Any final words before we sign off for the night? 
Uh... 
Choose your cyber gangs wisely. 
Yes. 
Yes. 
That's something we should say every week. 
Um... 
Act and, uh... 
Act with empathy and kindness, and, uh... 
Also vote with them. 
Okay. 
Good. 
Good. 
I feel like the pressure's on now for everybody to say something wise. 
Yeah. 
I'm just gonna go with what Rob said. 
Yeah. 
That sounds good. 
Yeah, so what Rob said, it's fine. 
Yeah, indeed. 
All right. 
Again, OTH at 2600.com is our email address. 
We'll see you next week. 
Good night.