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And a very good evening to everybody.
The program is Off the Hook.
This is Manuel Goldstein, joined tonight by Kyle.
Hello.
And out in Signal Land, we have Rob T. Firefly.
Good evening.
Gila.
Good evening.
And Alex.
Good morning.
How are you?
And you saying good morning clues me in on the possibility that you're not in New York.
That's right.
Well, it's just ticked over into the morning.
I'm over in London from the Chelsea Arts Club, as usual.
So good morning and happy Thursday.
Well, you'll be happy to know this is a shortened program.
We're not doing the overtime we usually do after the show.
Because tonight is a call-in show for WBAI listeners.
Great.
And we'll be opening up the phone calls in just a little bit.
But Alex, you're over there.
You missed all the snow and the ice.
And boy, you know, I can't tell you how much fun melting all the ice has been lately.
You know, because it invades pretty much every neighborhood.
In fact, a large part of the country over the weekend certainly was affected by all the ice.
And I think all of us can sort of unite in our own personal battles and community battles,
getting rid of it all.
You know, just kind of destroying it and making it less and less every single day.
I'm sorry you missed that.
Well, I've had my own battles against ice raging over here as well.
Have you?
Yeah, I have.
I have, as a matter of fact.
In fact, I've been battling ice here in London even tonight.
So I've had, yeah, I've been raging, raging against ice.
Well, it's a lot colder over there than I thought it was.
Yeah.
Well, you know, don't underestimate the effects that ice can have extraterritorially, so to speak.
But the weather?
Yeah.
The weather has been interesting, too, hasn't it?
I mean, that's something that...
It certainly has.
So hopefully everybody is snug in their homes listening to us and doing their bit to make
things better.
Okay.
So we have some stories I want to get to first before we open up the phone lines.
This is something that I just saw today, courtesy of Rob, who shared the fact that Meta, the
company that owns Facebook and Instagram and Threads, and don't they own WhatsApp, too?
Yes, they do.
Well, this story sort of left that out, I guess.
That's Politico.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, they apparently have stopped all their users from sharing a database that claims to
contain thousands of names and photos of U.S. immigration and customs enforcement agents
known as ICE.
And anyone trying to post the ICE list to Facebook, as of yesterday afternoon, was warned that the
post violates the platform's community standards.
Instagram and Threads users received a message saying the post failed to upload.
Meta spokesperson Andy Stone shared the company's community standards under privacy violations,
which prohibits sharing or soliciting of personally identifiable information.
Now, you know, I wonder, you know, Andy, if I had you here to ask you a question, where
do you draw the line on that?
I mean, you know, can I refer to somebody who is in the news because I'm giving out their
name, you know, and they're in the news, they're out there in public.
This information that was posted, I imagine, came from publicly identifiable sources, license
plates.
They're there for all to see.
Various databases that proclaim the names of the people that are serving their country
by being part of this Gestapo-ish agency.
Yeah, it'll be a spirited discussion.
Now, the move to restrict the links follows the unrest in Minneapolis, sparked by an ICE
operation that has led to thousands of arrests, two fatal shootings, and it comes as residents
use social media and encrypted messaging apps to trace ICE vehicles and agents.
Now, the site in question is known as wiki.icelist.is.
Yes, apparently it's in Iceland.
.is is the Icelandic domain.
That's wiki.icelist.is.
And, you know, we were experimenting with it a little earlier today.
Over at 2600, we were posting links to it on various platforms.
And it seemed to go through on just about all of them.
But what's disturbing is that something's happening to the site, even as we speak.
The links were working before.
There are links here to browse incidents, look at photos, get a list of known ICE agents in
various states, things like that.
And all of them, all of the links are pretty much dead ending right now and not going anywhere.
And it looks like something that's being changed on the site itself.
First of all, the site doesn't seem to have been updated since November.
And that's another disturbing problem that I see in a lot of sites like this, sites calling
for demonstrations and for public information to be revealed.
They're not maintained.
There are not enough people working on them to keep these things relevant.
And that's something that really has to change if any kind of change is actually wanted.
But basically, if you click on links, it seems to go to something called undefined each time.
And that's not a good thing.
Hopefully, it's a temporary problem.
Hopefully, it will get fixed.
But, you know, you have to be concerned when things like this happen.
Now, the ICE list says that it's a public verifiable record of immigration enforcement activity
in the United States.
It documents incidents, agencies, individuals, facilities, vehicles, and legal authorities involved
in enforcement operations.
Entries are structured, sourced, and timestamped to support verification, cross-referencing,
and long-term analysis.
The wiki is intended for use by journalists, researchers, advocates, and the general public.
The project was created by Crust News, whatever that is.
The wiki is an act of development.
Structure, navigation, and data standards are being finalized.
Older pages may be reformatted as standards are applied consistently.
The usual thing you see on wikis.
So, again, the address, wiki.icelist.is.
Let us know if you are able to get useful information out of that, if it's being updated, if it's
being disassembled.
I'm told that the links are working again now.
So, it seems to be in flux.
It's going back and forth.
It was going to dead ends before.
Now, it seems to be going somewhere.
Hopefully, the publicity of Meta blocking this may have inspired people to start working
on the site again.
That would be great.
Alex.
Well, I have a question for you, Emmanuel.
And Rob and Gila, I'd love to hear your views on this in a sense.
And do you think that Meta would prevent you from advertising for, let's say, job postings
on ICE or advertising for ICE on its platform at this moment?
I would say probably not.
I mean, I would say definitely not.
No, of course, they're in bed with them.
Of course not.
Right.
Right?
Of course not.
Of course they wouldn't, right?
Because then it's about revenue, right?
It's about eyeballs, about revenue, about taking in dollars.
So if on the one hand, you can advertise for ICE on Facebook, but you can't scrutinize
ICE on Facebook or any of these other platforms that Meta owns, well, then this isn't really
even about content moderation.
This is about information control at this particular moment.
I mean, this is a really serious moment.
And it makes us question the legitimacy of the platform, legitimacy of the company, their
partiality.
And I think it really calls into question the nature of what Meta is and the nature of
what these platforms are.
Because on the one hand, they have every right to do this.
They're not the government.
Meta is not the government.
Meta doesn't.
The First Amendment does not apply to Meta because they're a private actor.
The First Amendment applies to government actions.
Meta, thank God, is not the government.
But this notion that we should be allowed to criticize them, and it is a platform where
governmental accountability is front and center right now, it makes us question, and I don't
know the answer to this, what it actually is.
I mean, what the hell, what are we doing here on these platforms?
Is it a public forum?
Is it something that should be regulated by the First Amendment or not?
I don't know.
But this dichotomy between being able to advertise for ICE, but yet not being able to criticize
them, that makes me really uneasy about the information control that's happening on this
platform now.
It's not even criticizing them.
It's simply providing information.
Like, for instance, you know, there was an execution in the streets of Minneapolis over
the weekend.
We all saw it.
We all know about it.
We are not allowed to know the names of the people involved in that execution, you know,
under the guise of, oh, it's for their safety because they would be doxxed.
And yeah, you know what?
That's going to happen to anybody who commits a heinous crime on camera, and they should be
treated no differently.
But the fact that we are forbidden from having basic knowledge about a particular case, you know,
maybe there are people that know the, quote unquote, agents involved and can provide more
information, but they don't know those people are involved in this execution, you know?
And that is something that, you know, as a free society, as an alleged free society, these
are facts that should be known to the public from the very beginning.
And what we're seeing now is not only corporations falling over themselves to stay on Trump's good
side, but we're seeing them aid and abet the hiding of information, vital information that
we are entitled to.
So it's a really disturbing time to be in this country.
And, you know, I think many of us know that.
Many of us are waking up to that fact.
Rob, go ahead.
Yeah.
So we're looking at the icelist.is site and clicking around the wiki.
And as far as we can see, all those links are working, though some of them are quite
slow.
I can only imagine that thanks to the much beloved Streisand effect of someone saying,
no, we don't want this to spread.
And so therefore it's spreading for that reason, spitefully.
I can only imagine that the sheer attention that the site is getting now, this was started
about half a year ago.
And the fact that it's getting all this attention now is putting some stress on whatever hardware
is hosting this.
Having worked on various wikis over the years, I know that this can be a very strenuous thing
to host on a server.
And so I can only hope they have the technical resources they need to catch up and keep up.
But the pages themselves are still working, if you're patient.
And also, you mentioned this not being updated in a while.
I can see every wiki has a, or most wikis, have a recent changes page that will show you
in real time what changes are being made.
And the logs are very active.
There are things being organized.
There are things being added to pages.
It all seems to be a standard operating procedure for a wiki.
So it's still a thing that is being worked on currently by its admins.
One other thing that I found interesting is that they own, they also have icelist.info,
which redirects to icelist.is.
For what that's worth, I think it's probably safer to have this in Iceland than here.
I also see that the links are back up.
I'm looking at a list of agents in New York.
But I'm also looking at an incident list, and I don't see anything beyond 2025.
So that's what disturbs me, is the lack of new, you know, particularly what happened in
Minnesota, both, you know, executions in Minnesota that took place.
That should be front and center here.
And, you know, I'm not faulting them at all.
I know how it gets.
But this is, you know, it shows that we really need to help organizations like this, and more
people have to be involved.
I actually kind of want to push back on that for a second, because I think the idea that
there is so much daylight on what happened to Renee Goode and to Alex Preddy, we need
to shine a light on so many other things.
And I said to Rob, I, you know, I want to click on the Nebraska list and see if anybody
I went to high school with is now an ICE agent.
And none of them seem to be yet, as far as I can tell.
But, you know, I think to have a place where, like, they're just going through, like, LinkedIn
and finding people who are saying, oh, yes, I work for ICE.
And you know what?
Good.
Say it with your whole chest and let the chips fall where they may.
And, you know, the thing that I saw recently that someone said, if ICE agents have to uncover
their faces, like, 80% of them would quit.
Okay.
And yeah, so I think the idea that we're having, like, so the people, I think, are part of the
key right now.
And the incidents may be behind, but also it's a wiki and anybody can happen.
Go ahead, Alex.
I think this goes back to what you said, Emmanuel.
And you know how I like to disagree with you, but I agree with you entirely that this is
another example of these massive tech platforms being afraid to anger the administration and
doing anything they can to curry favor with the president at this moment.
And this is terrifying to me right now, because if platforms like this are treating documenting
government power as more dangerous than government power itself, then I think we have fundamentally
misunderstood who actually needs protection in this country.
That's a big problem.
Now, one other thing I want to mention, which is a corollary point to what I just said, is
this ICE list that I just cite, right?
So I just looked up the DNS configuration of ICE list.is.
I've never seen this hosting provider before.
And it's goddamn cool.
It really is.
I have to see.
So if you look at the NS records, the name server records of ICE list.is, it points to
nf2.1984hosting.com.
That's where the NS records are.
That's the name server records.
Nice.
So the MX records, the mail server records point to mx2.1984.is.
So I think they're choosing the hosting provider of this site very wisely.
It's kind of neat.
It's pretty cool.
I've looked at, I don't know, tens of thousands of domains.
I've never seen this before.
I think all of Iceland is in on it.
It might be.
It very well might be.
I'm pretty sure Trump would agree with me on that.
He would be convinced that they were all in on it.
But yeah, that's right.
I know.
Well, yeah.
Don't tell him about that.
He might get things unconfused.
Kyle?
Well, it's not a coincidence.
I mean, there has been a historic precedent in Iceland for them to act as a media haven.
This was something that was established, I think, over a decade ago.
But it's something to remember that these places are connected.
They are part of the global network that we all use and enjoy.
And in setting up in different jurisdictions, you can protect interests that are active in spaces that have a little bit more hostility towards what they're hosting.
And that's the magic of the Internet.
That's how the Internet was designed.
So it's a good thing that some people still remember that.
One other story here that's of interest.
Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut, singer Billie Eilish, they're among the critics who are accusing TikTok of censoring videos that are critical of the Trump administration's immigration rates.
Yeah, it extends to TikTok, with some raising questions about whether TikTok's new U.S. owners, including Trump ally Larry Ellison and his Oracle, I can't believe I said that, whether or not they're behind the alleged suppression.
Now, Murphy, in a post on Twitter late Sunday, shared a post from a TikTok user who alleged his content critical of immigration and customs enforcement raids are being censored, adding,
I know it's hard to track all the threats of democracy out there right now, but this is at the top of the list.
The user, David Leavitt, has 14,400 followers, but a screenshot he posted to Twitter over the weekend shows one of his newest videos garnering just 276 views, while two other videos said ineligible for recommendation.
Well, David, welcome to the club.
This has been going on for a long time.
And, you know, I post something on Twitter and maybe two people even see it.
And it's insane because, you know, years ago, that would be in the thousands.
So, yeah, this is this is nothing new.
The fact that TikTok is now joining the party.
Yeah, I guess that's a little bit new.
But when you sell to Trump people, what do you expect?
Democratic California State Senator Scott Wiener called TikTok state controlled media in a post.
Wasn't it called that before when it was run by China and now it's run by the United States?
Wow.
How about that?
He said that in a post on Twitter Monday, stating he posted a video to TikTok about state legislation that would allow people to sue ICE agents, but showing a screen grab of his TikTok account showed it sitting at zero views.
It's it's pretty disgusting what's going on.
And it doesn't stop there.
The FBI is now investigating us signal group text chats that Minnesota residents were using to share information about ICE agent movements, including a new front in the Trump administration's conflict there with potential free speech implications.
I'm sorry, launching that new attack.
Basically, Kash Patel is running this whole thing.
So, you know, that's going to go.
He said in an interview with conservative podcaster Benny Johnson that he wanted to know whether any Minnesota residents had put federal agents in harm's way with activities such as sharing their license plate numbers and locations.
Yeah, that's all it takes, apparently, in Kash Patel's limited brain to put somebody at risk is to give out their license plate, which is publicly displayed or to say where they are, which anybody knows who sees them.
You cannot create a scenario that illegally entraps and puts law enforcement in harm's way, he said.
The investigation quickly drew skepticism from free speech advocates who said the First Amendment protects members of the public who share legally obtained information, such as the names of federal agents and where they are conducting enforcement operations.
You know, that's standard practice.
That's, you know, cops have their names on their badges.
You can identify them, you know, they don't even have numbers on ICE agents uniforms so that internally they can identify them.
They have nothing so they can get away with all these heinous acts and be completely unaccountable.
It's not a flaw.
That's the design.
That's what they want.
And, you know, the sharing of the disinformation that is coming out of this administration concerning the victims of these crimes, concerning, you know, Alex Preddy and Renee Good, basically, it's not about the lie so much.
Yeah, it's easy to prove that they're lying.
It's easy to prove that they're wrong.
The video evidence is overwhelming.
It's about repeating it, repeating it over and over and over again, because even if it's a lie and you keep repeating it, it's going to stick in people's minds.
And five, ten years from now, people will say, yeah, that is not the person who was threatening the ICE agent.
You know, and a lot of people are saying that now because it's being repeated.
Fox News is on the air and they're repeating this over and over, too.
So the whole thing is really disgusting.
But, yeah, so they're investigating signal chats and supposedly they infiltrated signal.
Not the hardest thing in the world to do.
You simply can invite it into a chat and there you are.
In fact, the Trump administration even demonstrated that last year.
You know, any kind of dialogue is only as secure as the weakest link.
And if somebody from the opposing side is in your chat, yeah, they're going to reveal what you say.
But there's nothing wrong with saying the things that they're saying, which is basically ICE is here.
This is what they're doing.
These are the vehicles they're using.
It's called a free society, you know, and apparently it's something these people know nothing about.
Alex?
Go ahead.
Sorry, I was just coughing there.
But no, it's called accountability and transparency.
And these are the things that we've ordinarily expected our government to provide to us.
And yet, somehow, that seems to be an insane proposition now.
Everything has been turned on its head.
The whole thing is awful, is unbelievable, and continues to get worse, I have to say.
And look, I'm excited to open up the phone lines tonight and hear what our viewers have to say.
Well, not viewers, but listeners.
And believe me, that's a good thing.
Yeah, definitely.
But we do have to caution a couple of things.
If you're a regular caller to overtime, please don't call on this program because this is for BAI listeners,
people who are listening either to the radio or to the live stream and do this each week and don't call the other show.
And the phone number will be active in just one moment.
And we'd like people to keep it short so that as many people as possible can get in.
If you are currently the subject of one of our bands, actually, we only have one band going on right now.
We're not going to mention names, but you know who you are.
Don't call or the band will become permanent.
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All right.
Phone number 802-321-4225.
That's right.
It's a different phone number.
Not the usual BAI number.
802-321-HACK is our phone number.
We're not in Vermont.
That's a Vermont area code, but we're making use of technology to route phone lines all over the place.
802-321-4225.
If you have anything to say about technology, what's going on in the world today, something completely unrelated,
or just feedback to the show or to WBAI in general, please call that number.
802-321-4225.
We have a call, and let's pick that up.
And good evening.
You're on WBAI.
Go ahead.
Am I on?
You're on the air right now.
Okay.
I can never hear you guys.
This is Peter from Queens.
I can never hear you guys when I call.
But I'll just talk, and I'll go off the air.
So I had a question.
If you use something like a QR code or some passive technology to, like, glitch a system, like a surveillance camera or a Tesla,
and it causes it to malfunction or veer off the road or just shut off, can you be held liable for that?
And not even pretending it was an accident, like, you intended for that to happen, and it happened, you know?
This is a question for Alex, I guess.
I can't hear, so I'll just hear it off the air.
Okay.
I don't know why he can't hear.
Okay.
But, you know, Alex, just to preempt you for a second, you know, I would say it has to do with intent.
You know, if somebody knows they're going to do that, then, yeah, that's something that could be held accountable for.
But if just holding up a QR code is enough to make something get completely fouled up, well, I don't see how they could be held.
And our phone lines are open, 802-321-4225.
Go ahead, Alex.
Yeah, I think it does boil down to intent.
If you intend to do something like that, you probably could be held liable for it.
I mean, the law always has to do with intention and foreseeability, and it would also very likely fall under the ambit of state computer tampering laws.
Computer tampering laws are laws that have been on the books for several decades now, if you think about it.
But as opposed to federal hacking statutes where you are bypassing some kind of gate and accessing something without authorization,
those statutes probably wouldn't apply to this particular situation unless you had caused it to go to a site and drop some malware
and then exceed some kind of authorization that way.
Most likely, this would fall under the ambit of computer tampering laws if you had that intent to do it.
Okay, Rob, then Kyle.
I also can't help but assume that if you did happen to do something that made like a car go off the road
and that caused some actual harm to human life, that's a whole other field of responsibility.
Yeah, I would just emphasize that it would probably also include factors like the relative level of harm
that whatever your adjustment or attempt at bypassing or circumventing something,
it would be a calculation in the willingness of someone to try to prosecute that or punish an individual,
especially if it's scaled up.
Like a lot of people are doing the very same thing.
And the other thing that I think is worth considering there is the relative...
Oh, I'm blanking.
I'm losing my train of thought, but I just think the impact and yeah, just the choice of thing...
Oh, and the overlap.
If you have some sort of thing you're doing that then overlaps with a right
or some sense of sovereignty personally that you're trying to exercise,
like obfuscating your face with a barcode or something that messes with a camera
that would protect your perceived right to like, say, privacy, etc.
I'd like to know if you found a QR code that can mess up a Tesla somehow.
That's fascinating.
Okay, we have another phone call.
Good evening.
You're on off the hook.
Go ahead.
Hello.
I was just wondering if anyone has tried using like a URL shortener
or like a URL modifier to post the Ice List link onto Facebook
and other social medias that it's banned on.
Well, you know, that's a good question.
I would imagine they're on to that by now because URL shorteners have been around forever.
But, you know, I guess the only way to find out is to try it.
Yeah, I would try it if I had a Facebook, but unfortunately I don't have one.
Yeah, yeah, a lot of us don't.
But thanks for that input.
Yeah, and I also just want to say that everyone else seems to sound really good on the phone,
but Emmanuel, you're kind of like coming in and out and kind of like shorting out sounding a little bit.
Okay, well, that's valuable feedback.
And, Kyle, we've talked about this, so what's wrong with my voice?
We'll figure it out, but thanks for the info, and I'll let Alex address the issue there.
Yeah, while you deal with the technical issue over there, I thought about the same thing.
I'm not sure a URL shortener is the way to go in order to bypass these types of filters to get this content out there.
What I was thinking more along the lines is just having it hosted on multiple domains,
continuously, you know, adding new domain names to this,
because I would imagine that the block is based off of the icelist.is domain
or maybe the particular IP address that's associated with that.
So if you push it out to - if you push out the actual content to another domain hosted as a mirror,
maybe that's the best way to go.
Yeah, you know, these are all old methods of getting around things.
I'd be surprised if they still work because they're so obvious.
But, again, you know, the thing that they really can never get past is that Streisand effect,
where basically it'll just keep multiplying in different places.
They can't block everything, you know, and if they do, then they don't have anything.
So I don't know.
It's definitely something that I think it's a losing battle on their end.
802-321-4225.
I believe our phone lines are open.
And, Kyle, we're trying to fix my voice.
I don't know what's wrong with - why would my voice work over the air but not over the phone?
It's just -
Well, I try to add a little more of it.
Well, there's a simple solution.
I'll say less, you know, and you guys do more talking.
But we need a phone call.
802-321-4225.
This is our - it's pretty much a monthly call-in show here on WBAI, although we weren't on last month
because there was a lot of traveling going on.
So this was the first one in a couple of months.
So be a part of it.
Say what's on your mind.
802-321-4225.
Rob?
Yeah, while we're waiting for that phone call, I'll just mention that our - over on Channel 2600 on YouTube, where we won't be tonight,
but there are now Hope videos posted.
And among those Hope videos is the Off the Hook AMA that we did at last year's Hope Conference.
So I was re-watching that today and also seeing some nice comments about how nice it is to put our faces to our voices.
And so it's a nice little thing.
If you're a regular listener to this program and you haven't checked it out yet, you can go down to Channel 2600 and look for Off the Hook AMA Under the Hope 16 videos.
It's not always a nice thing to see our faces for many people, but, you know, if that's the kind of thing that you're into, yes, there we are.
And, you know, all the videos are there.
You're right.
All the videos are there.
It's funny.
We didn't tell anybody.
It's just - people found out and a lot of people are looking at them.
I had a dream about that, like, where, like, there was, like, a stage and stuff.
Uh-huh.
It was crazy.
You were on the stage, Kyle.
That's why you had a dream.
I don't know about that.
Okay.
We have another phone call.
Well, first of all, I apologize for the quality of my voice because I'm probably not coming in well, but let me just say good evening and welcome to Off the Hook.
Go ahead.
Is that me?
That is you.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, I can hear you now.
There you go.
Okay.
I just wanted to know if you knew anything about the ICE reading license plates and finding out that they'd come back to a bad or a, you know, new Social Security number and they don't tag them as illegals?
Do you know anything about that?
I'll take them off the air.
Okay.
Did anybody understand what he was asking?
Because I didn't.
I heard automatic license plate readers coming back with, or license plate reading or some kind of apprehension.
We heard the words.
It's just putting them together for meaning is what I'm having trouble with.
They're like new Social Security numbers.
Rob, do you know?
Yeah.
I think what the caller is asking about is, is ICE reading license plates with automatic readers and then checking those against some database to see if they come up against bad Social Security numbers that people who aren't here legally might be using?
And I have no idea of the answer, but I believe I understand the question.
Okay.
I'm not quite sure I understand the question or the answer or the phrasing, but go ahead, Kyle.
I think that in and of itself is worth talking about.
The fact that we don't really know how and what is being done when they take in information, when they're grabbing photos of people, when they're referencing and cross-referencing things.
There isn't a lot of transparency.
We should know.
We should totally know.
We should understand how it all works, what exactly is being compared so that there's and what mechanisms there are to remove yourself from some list or to deal with duplicate names and things like that or unusual spellings.
All of that is completely an assumption or we're trusting leadership.
We don't really have a good answer as to how that, or at least it's not been emphasized enough for the public en masse to totally, to understand it widely.
It's not common knowledge.
We should know, though.
We need to know a lot of things.
We need to know about chain of command, about due process, you know, about evidence, things like that.
And the way ICE operates, they believe they're above the law.
They believe they do not have to follow state law.
We've seen that in Minnesota and that is wrong.
Everybody unanimously says that is wrong, people with any kind of knowledge in the legal system.
But it doesn't stop them from continuing to flout the law and just ignore court orders and act illegally.
That's why it is so important to get the facts out there as to what they can do and what they cannot do, what you can do and what you should not do.
But it's an intimidating time to be in this country.
It really is.
And you might think, you know, it doesn't affect you.
But remember, two U.S. citizens were executed in the street in broad daylight with dozens of video cameras recording them.
And those people are still walking the streets.
And they could do it again.
And if you think the threat at this point are people without the right documents, you're barking up the wrong tree because the threat is far more insidious than that.
And it's something that has been repeated throughout human history.
And, boy, I don't want to have to play that game all over again.
But it looks like we're going down that road.
Anybody in Signal Land have comments and we'll take this phone call?
Yeah, just the theory of the authority of authority figures in this country, the police, the Fed, whoever, regardless of how you feel about them, it has, in theory, been a central point of their authority that they are accountable, that we can see how they do things and we can track and punish when that goes wrong.
And the fact that the current authority figures in this country aren't even pretending that's the case anymore is terrifying.
I would just add there has been some coverage.
I know for my home state, the state's DMV has been alleged or there's been some investigative reporting about their involvement, places like EFF and other organizations who are concerning themselves with this and spreading the word, sharing our great bits of ad hoc oversight when you don't really have it.
So we should be thinking about that.
Yeah, states, DMVs, the people that are sourcing and providing hookups and allowing the use of their infrastructure for this, they're then creating the conditions for mistakes and stuff like that.
They're sort of responsible because they're a third party that's sort of being used to - as a credible bottom line for apprehensions.
You know, you mentioned EFF, and I can't emphasize enough the importance of supporting these groups, these nonprofits that are out there, EFF.org, ACLU.org, and WBAI.org as well.
Because, boy, you know, the things that we are broadcasting here, you better believe when ICE comes to town, we are right on their target list.
It's not fantasy.
This is really happening.
So we need to all put our money where our mouths are and keep these institutions going because we've seen what they can do.
We've seen what they want to do.
And they're in power for a while to come.
And this is not going to end well for any of us.
So we need to stick together.
We need to join together.
We need to overlook whatever differences we might have with each other.
And we need to work together to save what's left of our society.
So please, support those organizations for WBAI since we are here.
Obviously, we can give you more specific information.
Give to WBAI.org or become a BAI buddy, buddy.wbai.org.
Every person who becomes a part of the station, who donates, makes us just a little bit stronger.
And having this voice here, it's been threatened so many times.
It's been taken off the air so many times.
But we always come back.
We always are there in the end.
And we need to continue that tradition.
And you're the key to doing that.
So please, give to WBAI.org, buddy.wbai.org.
And good evening to our caller.
You're on Off the Hook.
Go ahead.
All right.
Somebody else say it.
I guess I can't be heard.
Good evening.
You're on Off the Hook.
Myself?
Ian?
Hello?
Yes, you are.
Hi.
Yeah, my name is Ian Phillip Gonzalez.
I'm from Queens, New York.
And I'm calling because you guys are talking about a lot of technology and surveillance.
And so I'm basically a person that's being surveilled.
I'm on some sort of list.
I'm here in New York.
And I'm an unwilling participant in some sort of DARPA research program.
You could tell the tech they use.
They're using citizens to patrol citizens.
Like the community watch groups have gone high tech.
And what they do is they discredit you.
They'll use someone like myself.
I'm 57 years old.
I'm a yoga instructor.
But I did time in jail when I was younger.
So basically they want to use someone like myself.
They could discredit using their past against them.
Although that was in the 80s and 90s.
You know, I even went to college when I was upstate.
So I came out, got my associates.
And I just wanted to bring this to light to know if there's any way I could get in touch
with an investigative journalist because they've done everything.
You've heard of Havana syndrome, correct?
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
So they've used that against me in directed energy in about 2018, 19.
And today I've been diagnosed by the neurologist with many strokes in between my frontal lobe
and an operated brain aneurysm.
And I can't even use a smartphone.
I have to use a flip phone because I'm very sensitive to technology because of that.
So, and, yeah, this is something really new.
It's got high tech, these community watch groups.
They basically work in groups and tandems and use a smartphone.
You could always tell when someone's always hacking into your phone and everything, you know.
And I want to know if you guys know about any investigative journalists that kind of deal with this matter.
Well, that's a tough one, you know, because there are so many stories, similar stories of a bigger nature,
you know, enveloping entire cities or countries.
You know, we hear this a lot.
We hear people say this kind of thing a lot.
And it's kind of, it's difficult to give advice as to what exactly to do except try and keep your sanity.
You know, try not, if this is going on, you know, it sounds naive, but just try not to let it get to you or defeat you.
Do your own thing anyway.
And I don't know.
I think they've run out of tactics after a while.
Yeah, I would recommend live your life as best you can.
Enjoy your life and live your life.
You don't want to live in a sort of psychosis around this stuff because, but what you're talking about is,
at the same time, something that people should be aware, like, yeah, the kinds of policing that is going to go on is going to involve more technology.
And there is news even about that type of weapon that you're talking about.
But, of course, the widespread use of it and the scale, it may not necessarily be the cause of the sorts of symptoms at various points that you might encounter.
But, anyway, document it, like, tell your story, but also, like, live your life as well.
You don't want to have it be something that controls you.
Rob, you have something, too?
Exactly.
Yeah, the thing I would add to that advice is you mentioned that you're getting medical care, which is wonderful.
Not everyone has the ability or the access to do that.
But I would also say if you have people in your life, in real life, who you trust, family, friends, people like that,
who could help face whatever you're facing with you and be a trusted voice as to, you know, what's going on,
I think that could be more valuable than anything.
All right.
We're going to have to leave it there because we want to get some more calls in.
But best of luck to you.
Okay.
Thank you so much.
Appreciate it.
Take care.
802-321-4225 is our phone number.
We have time for maybe one or two at the most calls.
So if you want to be one of those calls, dial that number.
802-321-4225.
Good calls tonight.
Absolutely.
And that last one, great point, Rob.
Community, like, the people, the network around you, that fabric is so critical to really help you make sense of stuff
that might seem coincidental or seem like something.
Make sure you have a check on what you're seeing.
So anyway, we got it.
It's easy to dismiss people, too.
Don't do that.
Listen to people, you know?
Yep.
It's so important.
Yeah, but you don't want to get too caught up, like, focusing on it without some help, without a team, you know, without that family.
Go ahead.
Alex.
I echo everything that you're saying, Kyle, and what Rob said, too.
And I think for that caller, the most important thing for him to realize is he's part of a community.
He's part of this community of listeners and part of this radio show.
He's not alone here.
And I've seen a lot of people that have gone down a rabbit hole and have started to lose their sanity in thinking that they're being surveilled.
And there are definitely valid and invalid aspects of what's happening around you.
And just don't let it invade your life.
As I can't remember if it was Rob or Kyle who said it, you have to live your life.
Talk to people.
Don't isolate yourself.
That's the most important thing.
Always talk to people and get a check on this and make sure that you're living every day to the fullest here.
Because calling a radio call-in show, I think, is a good step towards sharing your story.
802-321-4225.
We have open lines, Kyle?
We are open, yes.
Okay, we're wide open.
So that doesn't happen often.
802-321-4225.
The remaining minutes of this special call-in edition of Off the Hook here on WBAI.
Which, hopefully, you're also filling out forums online to help support and keep WBAI on the air.
Because I guarantee you no other radio station in the New York area is as relevant as we are right now.
So, yeah.
802-321-4225.
I'm out of things to say, guys.
Well, there it is.
Well, I'll jump in and say, I think that if there's any radio station that will have the balls to push back against ICE when they come rolling into New York.
And don't forget, we may not hear about the fact that ICE has operations ongoing in New York all the time.
They are already here, okay?
They may not be here as en masse as they are in Minneapolis.
But there are ICE operations happening in New York.
Our neighbors are being taken.
Our neighbors are being seized.
We talked about it last week.
I've had this case going on for a petition for a writ of habeas corpus for an ICE detainee for a man who was picked up at immigration court in New York.
And I think I should find out how that case is going to be decided on Friday, this particular Friday.
And I'm very hopeful, knock on wood here, that we're on the right pathway and that we can get this guy out of ICE's custody.
But this is just one out of thousands that is happening all around us.
And we need stations like WBAI to be on the air because this is a form of community.
It's a form of being able to spread the information.
This is information dissemination that you're hearing and you're a part of right now.
And if it goes away, we're not going to realize the value of it until it's gone.
And, you know, hats off to you, Alex, for doing your bit.
And I encourage everybody out there, do whatever you can.
Maybe it's just showing up at a demonstration.
Maybe it's making phone calls.
Maybe it's just posting somewhere, getting the word out, pushing back however you can.
Every person matters.
Every person counts.
It's a microcosm here at WBAI.
When we have one person call in and pledge a certain amount, it's only one person.
But that's one person and another person and another person after that.
And before you know it, you have enough to survive.
Same thing out in the streets.
The same thing out online.
Just speak up.
Don't be intimidated.
You matter.
We have a phone call.
Good evening.
You're on Off the Hook.
Go ahead.
That's me, right?
That's you.
Hey, your microphone's shot.
I'm hearing you over somebody else's.
You keep getting glitches on your microphone.
You can hear it shorting.
And you're on Off the Hook.
Somebody else's on the air.
Okay.
Well, you know, it's weird because only people on the phone hear this.
I don't know why that is.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
You got a glitch on it.
You just got better again.
Okay.
But anyway, real quick, I just wanted to touch on this.
This is George from Jersey.
I just wanted to touch base and see some.
What about when, you know, do you think and or when do you think you're going to install
these explosives in your devices, on your phones and everything, just in case you get
out of line a little bit?
The other thing is, could it be very easy to do by shorting out the battery with just
a little computer glitch and you can activate a glitch by doing something, hitting it, you
know, however they did it.
It would be interesting if they had a signal they sent out to do it.
I don't know if they just called them.
They must have sent them a signal.
But do you think our phones are already set up for that?
And I'll take it off the air.
And they're like, where does this go from there?
That's a good question.
He cut himself off.
But I don't know.
That seems a little heavy handed.
But it might be getting to that point.
Yeah, I think explosives would be, that would be, I think, putting a lot of people at risk.
And I think that it would be very hard to do repairs.
It would be even harder than it already is.
Maybe, okay, maybe be as hard as it is now to do repairs on phones.
We are talking in, Jess, because the last thing we need is for somebody to say, oh, look
what they're plotting and scheming now.
Look, the important advice that we can give is to not put your entire life on a phone
so that if you lose it or somebody seizes it, they own you.
You don't want that.
Spread misinformation about yourself, you know.
Put things in different places.
Back it up and encrypt it.
There are ways to defeat them.
And you don't have to give up anything in so doing.
You just have to think a little bit differently.
Rob, we have 20 seconds.
Go ahead.
One thing I've heard of people doing is putting a card on their phone, like maybe inside
the case with their personal info and the number of an emergency contact, just in case
they need to throw it to somebody while, you know, while they're being hauled away.
So that might be useful.
There you go.
All right.
We're out of time.
Thank you, everybody who called in.
And please, you can write to us here at Off The Hook, OTH at 2600.com.
Next week, we'll be back with a regular show followed by Overtime.
We're not doing Overtime this week, but we will do it next week.
And again, support WBAI, WBAI.org.
Follow all the links for raising funds and supporting the most unique radio station in
New York, possibly the country.
We'll see you next week.
Good night.
We'll be right back.
Join ICE.
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Take my advice.
If you're lacking control and authority, come with me and hunt down minorities.
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Well, I failed the academy.
The cops weren't having me.
The army didn't sound that fun.
So I found me a paramilitary operation that was keen to hand me a gun.
I got picked on in school.
I never felt that cool.
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guitar solo
In the current circus
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