WEBVTT

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This is dedicated to all the hackers and the crackers.

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To the hackers and the crackers.

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I see in binary, I speak source code.

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Step on my toes, I'll post a million jpegs of you in a fag pose.

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In your digital stance, getting firewalled ho.

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Cause I'm riding the net in my six-fold.

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I was a dick with my fifty-six.

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Now with my cable, I'm able to get that stable.

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On the out, my name is Ace and I'm a Leo.

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On the digital highway, my name is Neo and I'm a hero.

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In a flash, I'll school you on burning Dreamcasts.

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You need some ISOs? Let me through my hard drive rifle.

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Our exchange you could never stifle.

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And a digital hug, you just caught the love bug.

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I bootlegged your CD. I caused a fight between Un and Jay-Z.

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Your CG, it's all gonna be free.

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Whether we take it by force or we take it nicely.

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You feel that rattle in your bones?

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When I tell you we just hacked out Jones?

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And NASDAQ leaves you flat on your back.

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Cause I am he who loves to hack and crack.

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Cause I am he who loves to hack and crack.

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This is dedicated to the hackers and the criminals.

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Serial codes, source codes, ISOs, RANs, SIFs, SIFs.

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This is dedicated to the hackers and the crack.

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Yeah, so I'm talking to her and I'm like, listen, you haven't seen Googling skills until you've seen me and my Google.

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Oh baby, you should see me Google.

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I'm a Googling machine.

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Oh, oh crap.

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Oh shit, are we recording?

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Yeah, hello everyone.

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We'll edit that out later.

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Welcome to Binary Revolution Radio episode 41.

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I am StankDawg, the Google Meister.

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And I am joined by a voice you may recognize, Rax himself.

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The Google master.

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You're a meister, I'm a master.

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The meister, the master.

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This is Binary Revolution Radio episode 41.

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I think I just said that.

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Coming to you on April 13th.

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Tuesday, April 13th, 2004.

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Only two days to get your taxes done.

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And two days until Hack TV.

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The debut of Hack TV episode one.

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Let's get our priorities straight.

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Taxes?

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Yeah, right.

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Oh, let's see.

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Well, in case you hadn't guessed,

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our topic today is going to be Google

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and lots of good Google information.

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But before we go into that...

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Boy, I'm almost wanting to say Google for every verb.

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I don't know how that started happening.

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Yeah, well...

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Before we Google into that,

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let's Google the housekeeping section

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and Google some emails, shall we?

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First email I got was from someone's real name

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who we don't read on the air, but they said,

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Hey, first off, I'd like to say I love the radio show and Mags.

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I know you probably hear this enough,

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but I'd just like to show my likings for Binary Revolution.

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I'm having a problem with my Orinoco Classic Gold PCMCIA card

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and an antenna I bought.

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The antenna plug and the plug on my Orinoco are both male.

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It seems that all I can find are MC adapters for making the antennas.

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Is there any adapter I can get to connect two male plugs?

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If you could give me a little input, I would appreciate it greatly.

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Thanks.

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Now, we need a little bit more information than that

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because we don't quite know...

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You know, we need a little bit more detail.

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What I can tell you is there's a site that I go to

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and I've bought from before called FabCorp.

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F-A-B dash C-O-R-P dot com.

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And they've got a good selection of lots of different converters,

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male to female, different size, stuff like that.

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But, actually, Rax and I were talking about this a few seconds ago

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and you had a good point and kind of a warning, I guess.

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Well, yeah, there's...

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You know, you can buy stuff any place, all over the place.

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You know, buy it on eBay or whatever.

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And you start mixing and matching.

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Actually, I took some training on Cisco's fundamentals of wireless technology.

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And you find out about a wave propagation theory and all this other stuff.

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And, basically, part of the FCC regulations as stuff was getting set up for Wi-Fi,

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there are different specs for polarities and everything else between different manufacturers.

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And that was specifically requested or specifically demanded by the FCC so people couldn't mix and match things.

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The idea being that if you start throwing all this stuff out there and, you know, putting antenna amplifiers

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and, you know, big old antennas with, you know, whatever, 18 dBi gain and everything else,

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you will get out of specification for what's called the ISM, industrial scientific medical band, that the 2.4 gigahertz is in.

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And since that's more or less a public band, if you start having and start mixing and matching stuff,

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you can end up with a lot of noise and putting out a lot of noise in that band

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and be prepared for potentially, you know, if anyone ever wanted to give you grief and, you know, rat you out to the FCC,

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you know, you could be looking at some pretty hefty fines there.

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Also, any time, too, you're doing any kind of splice stuff, and this just goes with anything,

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whether you're fiber optic or anything else, you're losing a lot of gain right there.

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So probably the better, I know for the listener, he already has the stuff bought,

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but for anyone else out there, you're probably better off doing your homework first,

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finding out what you need and getting the exact thing to fit rather than having problems later on.

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But is that a realistic possibility?

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I mean, I'm assuming that he's thinking, you know, he's...

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I guess I'm thinking that it's similar to what I have, and that's just a small antenna for the roof of the car kind of situation.

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You know, I have an omnidirectional that I actually bought from Fabcorp.

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And if he's just... it's just the adapter is the wrong sex.

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I mean, it's... if it's a small antenna like that, is there really that much of a danger in...

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If there's a small antenna like that, you're probably not going to get out of the spec.

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I forget what it was, it was like 36 DBI was the total output.

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It was another three-letter acronym, but from the point forward in the...

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Basically, it's what you're emitting.

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So you're probably not going to be getting out of that with the little war-driving mag-mount antenna on top of your roof.

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But just kind of a cautionary mention to everyone else out there listening about that.

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When you go to start getting this stuff, you need to keep that in mind.

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So when you go to some of these sites, like this Fabcorp or Wireless Central, I think was another one that had some stuff.

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Literally, they'll actually have kids for you and they'll have the whole shooting match.

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And then the responsibility is on them for specing everything out.

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Good advice. Very good advice.

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So, yeah, check that site out.

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And again, it didn't quite give us enough information to give you a straight answer

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or tell you exactly to buy this model number or whatever from this.

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But if you go to that site, Fabcorp, and what was the other one you said?

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I think it was Wireless Central. I'll double-check that here.

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Yeah, and we'll throw that in the show notes if we find that.

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And you probably will be able to find what you're looking for.

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Now, I have...

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Boy, we've got a lot of emails coming up, so let me warn you.

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We've got a large housekeeping section this time.

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I got an email. Actually, this is the second email.

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I should probably apologize, from Freaky mentioning his site.

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He's got a new site called Hackwire.com.

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Now, he sent me an email of this before, I guess maybe a couple weeks ago,

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maybe even longer, that he put up this new site.

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And I forgot to mention it on the show then I was going to bring it up.

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So, I'm bringing it now.

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If you go check out Hackwire.com, it's kind of a hacking news portal.

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What I like about it was that it also has a news feed.

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You can pick up their news feed and put it on your site.

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So, I've even taken it and put his news feed up over on our FL2600.com,

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site for our local Florida 2600 group, along with Root Secure's news feed and some other sites.

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Don't forget to go check out RootSecure.net also.

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But, yeah, check out Hackwire.com, give them a shot, see what you think about them.

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So...

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Also, in the meantime, I just looked that up.

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It is WirelessCentral.net, but that redirects you to store.ybi.com.

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And they have a ton of, just a whole boatload of wireless stuff there.

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Hmm.

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Well, we'll probably...

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We'll put up the link to the main site in case it redirects somewhere differently next time.

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Alright.

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Um...

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Got another email here from...

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This one...

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I like this one.

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Very short email, but I like getting these.

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It's from Insom.

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And it says,

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Dear Binrev,

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I must say I'm against any form of hacking that's detrimental to someone else's way of life,

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including use of exploits and trojans on corporate servers.

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Just supporting your views.

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I thought that was one of the best emails I've gotten in a long time.

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Short, simple, to the point.

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I don't know.

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What do you think about that?

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Well, it's...

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Get me up on my soapbox.

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Okay.

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Hacking...

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That was the point.

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Yeah.

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Hacking is not about breaking into things, okay?

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Hacking is, if you go back and look at it,

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it was like whatever in the 30s at MIT, the Model Railroad Club,

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they came up with all these cool little ideas for things.

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When the computer things and the artificial intelligence lab and stuff like that started happening at MIT,

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they adopted that name.

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And basically the idea, the whole original concept of that behind a hacker or a person who was a hacker,

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is someone who has a lot of knowledge in an area, finds out a solution to a problem, a clever solution usually to a problem,

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and shares that information with everybody else.

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When people started using computers to commit crimes, the media looked at that and said,

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well, what are we going to call these people?

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What are they calling themselves?

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You know, oh, they call themselves hackers.

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Okay.

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Well, so we'll call them hackers.

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And so now there's, probably from now until the end of time, the term hacker will be stigmatized.

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And to quote Emanuel Goldstein from 2600, they have a name for people who commit crimes with computers.

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It's called criminals.

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Okay.

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So the term hacking, and this guy is right on with the thing, you know, it's about sharing knowledge,

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it's about gaining knowledge and sharing knowledge.

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And like anything else, it's an absolute value.

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Knowledge is an absolute value.

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You can use it any way you want.

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You can take Taekwondo lessons, you know, to learn for self-defense.

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You can take Taekwondo lessons and find some random people and just beat the snot out of them, right?

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So it's all of what your intention is.

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You can use an airplane, right?

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You can fly people around the world.

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You can fly into a building, blow it up, and take buildings down.

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It's all back to your intent.

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So when people are doing these nasty, ugly things and, you know, oh, it's so lead, it's so cool, it's so lame.

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I mean, come on.

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Find things out.

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Share the knowledge.

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Share the information.

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Absolutely.

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Knowledge is power.

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But doing all that other stuff is, you know, it's just BS.

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It's just mental masturbation, you know?

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If you're going to be a criminal, you're going to do whatever you can to be a criminal.

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You're using various tools.

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You know, that's your choice.

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That's your karma.

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But hacking is not about crime.

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End of soapbox.

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Right.

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Well, I'm going to, I'll play a little devil's advocate here because I do think there's a fine line to be careful of here and that is, it's not only intent.

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Intent is an enormous part of it, and absolutely everything you said I agree with completely.

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But let's go with the virus, for example.

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This is an impromptu debate we'll have here on viruses, for example.

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To me, and this is just my personal, do not speak for DDP, hack radio, et cetera, et cetera.

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I don't really fault so much, in every circumstance anyway, the people who write a virus.

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I fault the people who use the virus and release the virus intentionally.

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Again, it comes back to intent, into the wild.

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So I know a lot of times, you know, I just want to be careful that someone may sit on that fence.

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Someone who develops viruses, to me, is not necessarily a black hat hacker, a bad hacker, a criminal or anything like that.

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There are perfectly valid reasons to research and look into this, and most of them being to point out weaknesses and flaws in systems.

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I mean, do you think Microsoft will be patching Outlook and fixing these problems if somebody wasn't pointing them out?

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But then there's a very fine line, like I'm saying, of where you do actually intentionally release that to damage something or...

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Am I making any sense there?

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Okay.

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Do you disagree?

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I was waiting for my opportunity here.

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Okay.

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First of all, I think that there's probably very few virus writers that write it just for the sheer joy of writing the virus.

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I think they write them to release them.

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I agree with that, but there are a few.

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Well, very, very few, I would think.

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You know, why else would someone do that?

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It's not to say, how am I going to prove how powerful my virus is?

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Look at Robert Morris Jr. in The Internet Worm back in the 80s, right?

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You know, he wrote that.

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He was researching it.

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It's actually a whole side story.

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We could talk about that sometime about Robert Morris Sr.

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Actually, his father, who used to work for the NSA and various other things of that ilk, he was actually responsible in some respects for the virus culture, if you will.

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But I think, really, people are writing viruses to release them.

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How else are they going to see them?

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How else are they going to get their jollies?

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How else are they going to feel, you know, good about themselves saying, hey, you know, I took down X amount of things or, you know, I caused this much damage or whatever.

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So I think, really, that they're written to be released.

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Next, for those people who have, and there have been some instances within the last year or so even, where there's supposed to be, you know, good viruses that go up and clean exploits and clean, you know, patch holes and things like that.

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Right.

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And I'm sorry, but I maybe call it, you know, one bad apple spoiling the whole bunch, but I'm not going to trust my security of my system to someone else to let them go in and do that for me.

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You know, shame on me if I don't have it patched, but, you know, I'll be damned if I'm going to let someone else, you know, wittingly, knowingly condone that kind of behavior.

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Well, that's just it. You're not knowingly and wittingly do it. They're using that same method of destruction to rebuild it for you without your knowledge.

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Yeah, and then, you know, there's, you know, again, maybe their intent is good with it, but I forgot about the other point that you were talking there, Stank, but anyway, yeah, I think they're being done to specifically do something.

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And now we're seeing the viruses and Trojans and worms and everything else being written for spammers and, you know, the virus writers and the spammers are working together or they're, you know, they're one and the same person, what have you, that I'll write a virus, it'll install on your system, and it'll put an SMTP server on your cable modem or DSL system or your dial-up, but typically, you know, the always-on connections.

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Now I'll harvest that address because, oh, by the way, when it installs itself, it'll send out a little message, you know, it'll pop something up on, you know, some anonymous page on angelfire.com or something.

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I'll go harvest that address. Now I have all these IP addresses around the world of sites I can use to send out spam.

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You know, and actually, that's a good point. We're going off on a little bit of a tangent there.

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Well, that never happens. We never do that.

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Yeah, never. But it kind of bugs me when I hear people talk about, see, to me, there's, I'm trying not to go too far on the tangent, but basically, you hear the word sellout when it comes to hackers.

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If a hacker gets a job in a security company or doing security for a company, they get labeled a sellout.

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To me, the real sellouts and the true sellouts are the ones that are in bed with the spammers and selling and giving their viruses and their trojans, et cetera, to the spammers.

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Those are the real freaking sellouts, if you ask me.

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Well, it's like my, when everyone sees on April 15th here, when you see the intro for Hack TV, my T-shirt says it all.

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I'm not a hacker. I'm a security professional. And it's just that fine line that people from Loft Crack looked at each other.

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You know, Munch looked at, you know, Captain Purple Cow or whatever the other guy's name was.

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Dude, we could make a lot of money if we just sell this in the corporations and, like, cut our hair and, you know, give ourselves a real name and a real website.

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And you get to that at some point, you know, at some point in your life and some realization.

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So, you know, there's nothing wrong with making money. There's nothing wrong with making a living.

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You can carry that too far. Let me give you a two-syllable example, Bill Gates.

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But, you know, there's nothing wrong with making a living with what you're doing.

17:29.980 --> 17:30.760
Unless it's spam.

17:30.780 --> 17:33.900
I think even Richard Stallman, you know, has said that there's nothing wrong with that.

17:33.980 --> 17:36.540
However, you know, there are other various degrees in there.

17:36.540 --> 17:47.680
But when it gets all back to it, again, hacking, the true intent of hacking, at least in my book, is, you know, getting knowledge, finding out solutions, and sharing that.

17:47.780 --> 17:50.860
It has nothing to do with criminal activities.

17:51.180 --> 17:51.980
Or destruction.

17:52.280 --> 17:52.840
Or destruction.

17:53.760 --> 17:55.760
How do we do that? Do we bring it back to the original?

17:56.880 --> 17:59.880
That's exact. You know, I agree 100%.

17:59.880 --> 18:01.520
I agree 100%.

18:01.520 --> 18:08.700
I do try to give a little bit of leeway, I guess.

18:09.820 --> 18:16.620
A very, very small percentage is probably accurate, but I still believe in innocent until proven guilty.

18:17.720 --> 18:24.660
So, someone writing a virus could purposely have done that for a class, for research, for...

18:25.340 --> 18:27.280
Well, I tell you what, what about this question?

18:27.280 --> 18:33.180
Does it matter what the payload of said virus, trojan, or whatever is?

18:33.640 --> 18:37.760
Are there degrees of severity and degrees of intent?

18:37.900 --> 18:40.680
For example, you know, something like...

18:40.680 --> 18:42.320
First degree murder, second degree murder?

18:42.440 --> 18:44.480
You want to have first, second, and third degree hacking?

18:44.820 --> 18:45.140
Is that it?

18:45.140 --> 18:46.400
Well, not so much that.

18:46.620 --> 18:48.240
More like, is...

18:48.240 --> 18:52.480
Well, I'm just posing a question here to see where...

18:52.480 --> 18:58.880
Like, is there a difference between the stoned virus and bugbear?

18:59.820 --> 19:01.900
Is there a difference in those two viruses?

19:02.080 --> 19:05.020
Because to me, they're two totally different things.

19:05.080 --> 19:08.600
One that doesn't do anything but pop a message up on your screen, it's an annoyance.

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And another one that can cause damage and delete files and shut down servers.

19:14.460 --> 19:19.860
Should those be treated differently, or are they all...

19:19.860 --> 19:21.000
I'd say hang them all.

19:21.280 --> 19:22.600
String them up, it'll teach them a lesson.

19:22.760 --> 19:23.100
Yeah, right.

19:23.620 --> 19:24.500
The old...

19:24.500 --> 19:27.740
I love the old line, it says, anyone for capital punishment should be shot.

19:28.140 --> 19:28.400
Yeah.

19:30.540 --> 19:33.600
Well, you bring up an interesting question there, and we've seen...

19:33.600 --> 19:34.180
Me?

19:34.340 --> 19:35.200
An interesting question?

19:35.300 --> 19:35.560
No.

19:35.840 --> 19:36.280
Yeah, yeah.

19:36.340 --> 19:36.740
Well, even...

19:36.740 --> 19:37.480
You know, what do they say?

19:37.480 --> 19:39.420
Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then?

19:40.020 --> 19:40.300
But...

19:40.300 --> 19:41.740
Sorry, man.

19:41.800 --> 19:42.440
I just had to...

19:42.440 --> 19:42.920
Slam!

19:43.140 --> 19:43.500
Burn!

19:43.500 --> 19:50.420
But it brings up an interesting point, because again, now we're starting to see in this post-9-11

19:50.420 --> 19:52.500
world of the Patriot Act and all this other stuff.

19:52.760 --> 19:55.780
By the way, I've slapped my own wrist for saying the Patriot Act.

19:55.860 --> 19:57.120
It's the USAPA, right?

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It has nothing to do with patriotic.

19:58.620 --> 20:02.340
It's just a very cleverly termed marketing scheme.

20:02.800 --> 20:08.980
But anyway, so with the USAPA in this kind of environment, they're saying now that if someone's

20:08.980 --> 20:14.500
doing this illegal activities with computers, you know, do not cobasco, do not collect $200,

20:14.860 --> 20:21.520
go straight to jail, go to the big house, you know, become someone's wife, because now,

20:21.620 --> 20:26.040
you know, this little pencil neck geek that did this, you know, whatever alleged computer

20:26.040 --> 20:27.740
crime is now a felon.

20:27.740 --> 20:33.100
And he's spending, you know, hard time, you know, next to the guy who, you know, I don't

20:33.100 --> 20:36.440
even want to say what kind of unspeakable acts he did and how many people he murdered and

20:36.440 --> 20:37.980
burned houses and everything else.

20:38.200 --> 20:40.920
So, you know, we've carried too far that way.

20:40.960 --> 20:45.460
So you bring up a great point with, you know, just, you know, should everyone be a felon

20:45.460 --> 20:48.140
and, you know, be a felon for life if you write a virus, right?

20:48.240 --> 20:50.040
Throw them in jail, let them rot.

20:50.520 --> 20:54.180
You know, it'll cost us $50,000 plus a year to keep that person in jail, but doggone it,

20:54.180 --> 20:55.000
we got them off the streets.

20:55.420 --> 20:56.760
The Internet, the world's a safer place.

20:57.160 --> 21:01.360
Meanwhile, drug dealers are getting away and going back out on the streets and murderers.

21:01.360 --> 21:03.940
You know, you spend five years in jail for murdering someone.

21:04.060 --> 21:06.080
You get out with good behavior.

21:06.480 --> 21:11.100
You've learned a lot of new techniques, you know, in the can, and now you're going out

21:11.100 --> 21:11.820
and doing bigger crimes.

21:11.820 --> 21:16.200
You know, that would be something that I would like to see personally.

21:16.340 --> 21:21.940
I would like to see a movement to reclassify and further define hacking crimes or technology

21:21.940 --> 21:26.480
crimes, excuse me, let me correct myself, technology crimes and levels thereof.

21:26.480 --> 21:34.160
If there are going to have all these broad levels of non-technology crimes, like you said,

21:34.260 --> 21:38.880
manslaughter one, manslaughter two, murder, first degree, second degree, et cetera, why is

21:38.880 --> 21:42.880
that not the case for Internet crimes or computer crimes?

21:43.520 --> 21:47.160
Well, you know, someone who may be working in that regard, and I've heard her speak at,

21:47.660 --> 21:54.180
I think both at DEF CON and the last HOPE conference, and I call her a white hat lawyer,

21:54.600 --> 21:56.760
because I generally don't like lawyers, but Jennifer Granik.

21:56.920 --> 21:57.320
EFF?

21:57.600 --> 22:03.140
Works for Stanford Law Institute, the same place that Lawrence Lessig works, so, you know,

22:03.140 --> 22:07.160
and she was bringing up all these issues that related to the USAPA and stuff, so.

22:07.700 --> 22:12.720
But, yeah, so like Emmanuel said, people who commit crimes with computers, they're called

22:12.720 --> 22:13.080
criminals.

22:14.000 --> 22:16.500
Yeah, I mean, a thief with a computer is still a thief.

22:16.860 --> 22:17.160
Got it.

22:17.160 --> 22:23.860
So, anyway, well, see, that was a lot of good, that was a lot of good discussion over a two-sentence

22:23.860 --> 22:24.140
email.

22:24.760 --> 22:25.920
So, thank you, Insome.

22:26.020 --> 22:29.800
We appreciate the words, and we're glad that some people get it.

22:30.420 --> 22:35.420
And getting an email as simple as this sometimes really makes me rededicated to realizing that

22:35.420 --> 22:36.760
there are people out there who get it.

22:38.100 --> 22:39.620
So, thank you again for that.

22:39.620 --> 22:48.220
Now, I've got another email I just got in from 813, and he says, well, I love the new

22:48.220 --> 22:48.540
apps.

22:48.740 --> 22:50.360
Really love that default app.

22:50.420 --> 22:53.240
I was crying the whole time from non-stop laughing.

22:53.980 --> 22:55.840
By the way, learn phone number rhythm.

22:56.280 --> 22:59.680
6-2-4-5-0-1-8 is really hard to write down.

23:00.120 --> 23:00.980
Okay, back on topic.

23:01.060 --> 23:05.700
On episode 40, you talk about referrals from P&G, Freaks and Geeks, he's referring to.

23:05.960 --> 23:08.300
Well, I got into this whole scene from Freaks and Geeks.

23:08.300 --> 23:14.860
Was reading up on web design stuff when I found some Unix docs and Hacking 101 docs.

23:15.260 --> 23:17.740
Went through a few links and then found Freaks and Geeks.

23:18.220 --> 23:22.280
I read every article on the site and went through most of the scans when I noticed the forums.

23:22.660 --> 23:24.280
That was the best link I ever clicked.

23:24.680 --> 23:26.100
Very smart, helpful community.

23:26.220 --> 23:27.080
Just thought I'd share.

23:28.040 --> 23:30.620
Well, thank you, 813, again for the kind words.

23:31.340 --> 23:36.500
Default Radio, I was on a couple weeks ago, and I thought it was just a great time.

23:36.500 --> 23:39.060
Three hours of just non-stop hilarity.

23:39.220 --> 23:43.740
It's just such a fun show to do and to listen to and stuff like that.

23:43.780 --> 23:45.360
So that was definitely very fun.

23:46.160 --> 23:56.060
And Icon and the Freaks and Geeks over at freaksandgeeks.com have been, you know, we've been closely allied from day one, you know, and hopefully continually will be.

23:56.060 --> 23:59.000
They've been very good to us, and we try to be good to them.

23:59.080 --> 24:04.840
They're one of the few non-DDP sites or DDP member sites that we're hosting on our server.

24:05.520 --> 24:08.900
So we definitely support them wholeheartedly.

24:08.900 --> 24:22.560
So check them out, Freaks and Geeks, and obviously they're, you know, so much so, I trust Icon so much so that he is, has full control over the Freaks and Geeks forum at BinRevForum.

24:22.760 --> 24:27.980
So, you know, he's got everything, you know, we think alike.

24:28.360 --> 24:32.740
We think alike, we get along real well, and I guess that's all there is to be said about that.

24:32.940 --> 24:36.720
Except that I can't spell the word one in my show notes, but that's a whole different story.

24:36.720 --> 24:43.060
Now, I got one, I saved this one for last because this one could get a little long, too.

24:45.060 --> 24:51.700
This was an email, actually not an email, this was a private message I got from White Raven, an old friend of ours.

24:52.400 --> 25:03.600
And he says, I finally got to listen to BinRev40 without interruption, and a very good reason for the human XML that you are missing would be for mediums that do not support emoticons or even the sighted.

25:03.600 --> 25:15.940
Through this abstraction layer, one could allow the same input and environment data to be accessed through different applications such as voice synthesis technology and next generation virtual reality applications.

25:16.520 --> 25:20.480
Who knows, we may need this once we are able to plug into the matrix, as it were.

25:20.940 --> 25:25.100
The first draft may be flawed in your eyes, but there is a way for this to be useful.

25:25.420 --> 25:27.400
Just thought I would let you know my thoughts.

25:27.400 --> 25:41.520
Okay, first of all, yes, there is a very good point here, but let's clarify exactly what human ML, human markup language, which is what it's officially called, which is a substandard of XML.

25:42.240 --> 25:44.260
Human markup language, isn't that known as tattoos?

25:44.260 --> 25:51.000
Yeah, yeah, we could go into a whole, I've got a great tattoo story for you, another episode.

25:52.620 --> 26:05.960
But XML is, basically it's a form of output, of input output I guess you could say, that can be used in any number of ways.

26:05.960 --> 26:30.600
By setting a standard format for it, you can set it up so that if you have a substandard within it, which is what the human markup language is, and applications can support that substandard, then they will be able to apply and use them for whatever intent of reason, whatever intent or reason I guess I should say, was meant to be used for.

26:30.600 --> 26:42.000
Now, I admit that I completely overlooked the possibility of using this for someone that was visually impaired or anything like that.

26:42.460 --> 26:47.700
So, I actually sat down and tried to rethink this through with that application in mind.

26:48.180 --> 26:57.160
And I still don't see where someone who is not sighted would really benefit much from this human markup language.

26:57.160 --> 27:07.440
This thing envisions models and avatars, visual aspects, visual items that you can see that require sight.

27:07.920 --> 27:25.620
I don't know what point it would be to have human markup language saying, you know, somebody winks or is laughing or smiling or these definitions of, you know, how the other person is reacting and showing those emotions and stuff like that without sight.

27:25.620 --> 27:38.360
Maybe it could do things like, you know, as voice synthesis technology gets better, it can change the inflection, the rhythm as we're saying things.

27:38.440 --> 27:48.200
Think about it, you know, if I'm kind of laughing and I'm joking and, you know, the speed and the cadence and things like that, you know, so maybe that's a possibility.

27:48.200 --> 27:53.700
Absolutely is. However, let me pose this question to you then, and this is what I mentioned before.

27:54.540 --> 28:02.860
What's to stop me from lying? What's to stop me from saying that I'm laughing when I'm – obviously there's a difference in me going, Rex, you're a complete asshole.

28:03.440 --> 28:06.380
And me going, Rex, you are such an ass.

28:06.940 --> 28:10.300
Those are two different things, right? When you're laughing with one, it makes it a little bit different.

28:10.560 --> 28:10.760
Right.

28:10.760 --> 28:18.120
How do you know if I wasn't still calling you an ass in the second one? I just put in a fake human markup language saying laugh when you call him an ass.

28:18.580 --> 28:24.940
Well, what's to say you couldn't do that when you're looking at me in the eye? And, you know, people are doing that all the time.

28:25.340 --> 28:30.860
Absolutely, which brings me to the second point that I mentioned before, too, was why do we need this?

28:30.860 --> 28:35.880
Why wouldn't you be on the phone with somebody verbalizing this or face-to-face with the person?

28:36.260 --> 28:49.340
It seems like a wasted – another excuse to hide from human contact, which I don't want everybody to go into their shells and stay – we're always telling people to get out from the matrix once in a while, go out into the fresh air and stuff like that.

28:49.880 --> 28:54.320
And secondly, how is it necessary to form a standard for this?

28:54.320 --> 29:02.100
Why can't we just put in there the actual raw text? Do we need a tag, a standard tag?

29:02.200 --> 29:07.060
That, by the way, does it sound that complex? It sounds like I could develop this in a couple weeks, if that.

29:07.520 --> 29:12.200
I thought that was part of XML is that you can define the tags basically on the fly.

29:12.360 --> 29:15.940
Exactly. So they're spending years trying to develop this whole thing.

29:15.940 --> 29:29.180
And I really don't see – I mean, the voice synthesis technology, if it's good enough to try to do inflections and things like that, but it seems to me like it would take a lot of tags.

29:29.660 --> 29:34.400
And the inflection is not in sentences. Inflection is on individual words.

29:34.400 --> 29:44.600
And that would be a lot of code and doubling the size of things to put the inflections on the proper words and the right emotions around each sentence or each word and phrase.

29:45.000 --> 29:55.060
And it just seems like a whole lot of work for something that is just not dependable, reliable, or frankly, I still don't see that it's real useful.

29:55.680 --> 29:59.720
I just don't think – the most use that I would see out of it would be visual.

29:59.720 --> 30:11.340
If you want to put an avatar or like – remember a few years they had VRML, virtual reality markup language, you know, where you can have a 3D avatar and look at people face-to-face, something like that.

30:11.560 --> 30:21.520
I could see it being applied. I still think it's kind of a dumb kind of a waste, but it's visual, so it's still – I'm not quite sure I'm seeing – I could be missing something.

30:21.520 --> 30:32.820
I completely admit maybe I'm missing something on this, but to me it still seems like it's just – there's so many other things that people could be doing studies on besides this.

30:32.820 --> 30:40.840
Well, the other thing is, taking the counterpoint to this, is that first of all, ASCII is very flat.

30:42.000 --> 30:48.640
And, you know, we do little things like, you know, we put – as we're typing plain ASCII text, you know, we put some words in capitals.

30:48.840 --> 30:57.280
You know, those of us who respect other people's eyes and don't want to abuse them, you know, we don't type entire sentences or entire messages in capital letters, for example.

30:57.280 --> 31:05.720
But, you know, we put, like, the asterisks around words or sometimes we put an underscore in front and, you know, in front of a word and behind a word to add a little bit of emphasis.

31:06.120 --> 31:09.700
But ASCII is very flat. It's not rich at all.

31:10.240 --> 31:26.020
And the human language and human communication is so rich, and because of that and the inflections and the cadences that we're working with things that we're trying to bring that – it sounds like we're trying to bring that into these other mediums.

31:26.020 --> 31:27.960
So I don't think – I don't see that as a waste.

31:28.200 --> 31:33.460
I actually see that, you know, a lot of times you have a solution before you have the problem.

31:33.580 --> 31:36.780
Case in point is the data CD-ROM.

31:37.300 --> 31:41.440
It was out for years and years before people actually started using it.

31:41.500 --> 31:51.540
One of the first things I can remember that had a useful – one of the first things related to the technology that had a useful application for a CD-ROM,

31:51.540 --> 31:54.960
other than, you know, music CDs, which no one was really buying back then.

31:55.000 --> 31:59.100
Everyone was still in the cassettes, and the diehards were still holding on to their 8-track tapes with, you know,

31:59.640 --> 32:01.060
take it out of my cold, dead hands.

32:01.500 --> 32:06.080
But one of the first things that I saw that was of really good use for that was in CorelDRAW.

32:06.760 --> 32:10.440
CorelDRAW came with, like, maybe one CD of clip art.

32:11.060 --> 32:16.080
Because, after all, you know, we had hard drives at the time where, like, you know, 30, 40, 50 megs maybe.

32:16.080 --> 32:19.720
Who would need – who would ever need 600 megs worth of data?

32:20.020 --> 32:20.500
That's insane.

32:20.600 --> 32:26.080
I have a whole operating system in every document I've ever written, you know, on a 32-meg RLL hard drive.

32:26.240 --> 32:28.980
So who needs 600 meg of data, right?

32:29.060 --> 32:30.680
Well, nowadays, look at our hard drives, right?

32:30.880 --> 32:33.660
You know, I've got 200 gig online here, and I don't have enough space.

32:34.260 --> 32:38.840
So sometimes you have the solution to the problem before you actually define the problem itself.

32:38.840 --> 32:46.940
So if we put that work in here ahead of time and those things are developed, again, since XML is, you know,

32:46.960 --> 32:56.120
an on-the-fly kind of definition of those things, rather than being like HTML, which all the tags are predefined and everything,

32:56.580 --> 33:02.420
being – generating that type of thing on the fly, I think that's – I think that's good because it gives us room for growth.

33:02.420 --> 33:11.120
And if – you know, as long as it's done in kind of an open environment, and listeners may have heard me say – use this quote before,

33:11.540 --> 33:15.700
but Isaac Newton said, if I see farther, it's because I stand on the shoulder of giants.

33:16.280 --> 33:20.140
So if people are working on doing these kind of little rudimentary types of things now,

33:20.660 --> 33:24.100
who knows what they'll come up with, and they'll base those things on the future.

33:24.100 --> 33:28.480
Well, I guess any progress, I guess we have to say, is good.

33:28.560 --> 33:37.020
So maybe I shouldn't be laughing at it so much, but I still, still say that I just – there's an opportunity cost involved here.

33:37.760 --> 33:45.220
And I guess that's a business term, but an opportunity cost of – I'm assuming, and maybe I shouldn't be,

33:45.480 --> 33:46.780
that they're getting funding from this.

33:46.840 --> 33:47.740
This is through a university.

33:47.860 --> 33:48.800
They have a group of people.

33:48.800 --> 33:54.780
So I'm assuming they're getting some funding, and even if they're not, they're spending human resources, time,

33:54.960 --> 34:01.140
and energy on something like this, when, frankly, we still need a cure for cancer.

34:01.960 --> 34:02.800
We still have –

34:02.800 --> 34:03.180
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

34:03.240 --> 34:03.640
Let's take it.

34:03.920 --> 34:04.120
All right.

34:04.200 --> 34:09.180
Now, the monetary resources absolutely could be used, but the people who are going to be developing, you know,

34:09.220 --> 34:12.560
this human markup language are not going to be the same people, you know, researching,

34:12.860 --> 34:14.340
doing genetic research on cancer.

34:14.760 --> 34:15.440
Well, fine.

34:15.480 --> 34:16.680
I'm using an extreme example.

34:16.720 --> 34:17.480
You want a real example?

34:17.480 --> 34:21.600
These are intelligent computer people that could be using – trying to solve the spam problem,

34:21.920 --> 34:23.100
trying to increase bandwidth.

34:23.300 --> 34:31.160
I mentioned on a couple shows ago about this new BitTCP protocol to enhance the speed of sending stuff over the internet.

34:31.300 --> 34:32.640
This is research that is good.

34:32.720 --> 34:34.620
This is research that will benefit everybody.

34:34.960 --> 34:38.660
This is not research to make a better smiley, and I think that's wasted.

34:40.220 --> 34:42.480
So, yes, could it be used for some good things?

34:42.580 --> 34:43.640
Possibly down the road.

34:43.640 --> 34:47.880
But, I mean, me comparing it to cancer is kind of like you comparing it to CDs.

34:48.400 --> 34:55.200
CDs has so much possibilities and so much endless – even though you say there was an answer before a problem came out.

34:55.600 --> 35:00.960
There were so many possibilities that could be done with that that it's – you know, it was mind-boggling.

35:00.960 --> 35:06.880
I mean, human markup language, we're sitting here struggling trying to think, well, we could use better speech synthesis.

35:09.320 --> 35:14.940
Again, you know, we're just standing at the edge of a shore wondering what's on the other side.

35:15.080 --> 35:19.160
You know, we're on the edge of the ocean wondering what life is like on the other side there.

35:19.160 --> 35:21.580
Yeah, I guess you're right.

35:21.860 --> 35:22.540
And you know what?

35:23.000 --> 35:32.400
I probably shouldn't be so negative, but, gosh, it just gets frustrating when you see other problems out there that could be – people could be working on.

35:33.140 --> 35:35.120
But I guess everybody can't work on the same thing.

35:35.180 --> 35:36.000
That would be bad, too.

35:36.140 --> 35:37.520
So, point taken.

35:37.520 --> 35:45.380
Anyway, we are well over halfway into the show, and we've still got Google to talk about.

35:46.380 --> 35:55.980
So, before we do, let me just talk about some stuff I've been working on lately because we mentioned last week that Hack TV will be coming out April 15th.

35:55.980 --> 35:58.200
So, I've been putting a few finishing touches on that.

35:58.860 --> 36:04.560
And another video that I've been working on, kind of a fun thing that I'll put up online, probably over on StankDawg.com soon.

36:04.560 --> 36:10.260
And I've been working on some more articles and doing some Perl scripting, which is not my forte.

36:10.440 --> 36:12.420
I have little or no experience in that.

36:13.020 --> 36:15.000
So, In Theory has been helping me with that a lot.

36:15.380 --> 36:18.200
And actually, for work is actually the reason.

36:18.280 --> 36:23.100
I don't like trying to teach myself something without a goal in mind.

36:23.200 --> 36:29.280
So, when I found a problem at work that some people were working on, and I thought to myself, Perl would be great for this.

36:29.660 --> 36:34.160
So, In Theory has helped me a lot to work on a program that I actually can use for something.

36:35.140 --> 36:38.820
And on the totally opposite end of the spectrum, I've been playing a lot of Gunbound.

36:39.480 --> 36:42.240
So, if anybody wants to play Gunbound sometime, hit me up in the forums.

36:42.860 --> 36:46.220
We'll hook up online, and I will blow you away.

36:46.400 --> 36:48.060
Actually, not, because I really suck at that.

36:49.320 --> 36:52.480
But, anyway, what's been going on with you?

36:53.260 --> 36:54.600
Well, this isn't...

36:54.600 --> 36:56.160
I'll take it from the other end.

36:56.160 --> 36:58.220
It's actually not a hacking-related one.

36:58.480 --> 37:03.080
But a year ago today, I got back from my trip to Ireland.

37:03.660 --> 37:06.200
And for the last couple of weeks, I've been taking Irish language classes.

37:06.800 --> 37:10.360
Let me tell you, I want to pronounce all the words.

37:10.360 --> 37:14.160
But when you have five letters that are all silent at the beginning of the word, it's kind of hard.

37:14.580 --> 37:17.540
So, cut us a tattoo spank.

37:19.920 --> 37:20.360
True.

37:21.680 --> 37:22.120
False.

37:22.120 --> 37:27.600
Aside from that, I've been delving into crypto a little bit more lately.

37:28.880 --> 37:36.740
Thought, T-H-A-W-T-E, thought.com is giving out free personal S-MIME X509 email certificates.

37:36.740 --> 37:46.580
I encourage everyone to get that and start using it, even if you don't go through the full process of getting it all authenticated and becoming a notary yourself.

37:46.960 --> 37:50.460
If people started using it, first of all, it gives you the integrity.

37:51.300 --> 37:54.180
You can encrypt with that, so you get the confidentiality.

37:54.820 --> 37:59.900
And if enough people actually start using personal email certificates, you can say,

38:00.000 --> 38:02.940
I'm not going to accept anything from anyone unless it's digitally signed.

38:03.360 --> 38:04.740
And then you have non-repudiation.

38:04.740 --> 38:09.380
And then the son of a gun, those spammers don't want to, you know, they're like cockroaches.

38:09.460 --> 38:10.920
They don't want to see the bright light of day.

38:11.060 --> 38:13.380
So, I think that can help cut down on spam.

38:14.040 --> 38:16.420
And aside from that, I've been doing training classes.

38:16.560 --> 38:23.680
I've been training other people, instructors, how to train students in security, IT security stuff.

38:23.820 --> 38:25.380
So, that's what's been going on with me.

38:25.740 --> 38:27.280
Well, you've got your work cut out for you.

38:27.500 --> 38:27.820
Oh, yeah.

38:28.720 --> 38:29.460
Very much.

38:30.580 --> 38:31.220
All right.

38:31.220 --> 38:35.640
Well, like we mentioned at the top of the show, this is the Google episode.

38:36.580 --> 38:38.160
I'm sure there will be more in the future.

38:39.600 --> 38:44.560
But we have several Google – as a matter of fact, I don't know that we're going to be able to cover all of these topics today.

38:44.760 --> 38:47.600
So, let's jump right in first of all.

38:47.680 --> 38:48.660
Where should we start?

38:48.740 --> 38:55.780
With the mail or – I guess let's do the answers quickly and then talk about the mail.

38:55.780 --> 38:59.980
Because I think the mail thing could go on and let's see how that goes first.

39:00.740 --> 39:04.360
So, let's do the first thing that I wanted to – is that okay with you?

39:04.900 --> 39:13.180
I was going to say we should probably even just touch briefly for someone who's maybe been living on another planet and, you know, just listening to the show for the first time.

39:14.140 --> 39:15.960
Just a little bit about Google and their background.

39:18.640 --> 39:19.840
Well, do you want to do that?

39:20.400 --> 39:20.760
Okay.

39:21.920 --> 39:26.920
Google – and there's actually – I was thinking I were talking before the show here.

39:27.020 --> 39:33.500
I think there's a potential lawsuit coming up here for – there was a cartoon back in like the 1920s called Barney Google.

39:33.720 --> 39:34.640
It was spelled the same way.

39:35.040 --> 39:41.540
So, I think whoever still owns that maybe is planning this big old lawsuit against Google, the search engine.

39:42.000 --> 39:43.600
But basically, again, a search engine, right?

39:43.600 --> 39:50.460
It's going out, it's looking on webpages across the Internet, finding information, building indexes on that.

39:51.100 --> 39:58.600
And I believe it was two either professors or grad students from one of the California universities that set this up.

39:59.040 --> 40:03.100
They're using – of course, you know, they've developed a lot of their own software.

40:03.100 --> 40:05.540
But I believe they're using BSD-based systems.

40:05.540 --> 40:15.380
They have a ton of white box computers, and they have them all, again, running like a free BSD or something is what I believe they're using.

40:16.120 --> 40:17.320
They cluster them together.

40:17.560 --> 40:24.900
They basically have a supercomputer with all the hardware they have, and they have tons of bandwidth, obviously, for all the searches.

40:25.500 --> 40:28.200
But it started kind of slow, and it's something that's interesting.

40:28.320 --> 40:32.760
I was reading today, getting ready for the show, is that Google really hasn't spent on advertising.

40:32.760 --> 40:36.460
You know, we have Yahoo advertising on TV.

40:36.720 --> 40:38.760
You know, you've got these little guys yodeling and all that type of stuff.

40:39.540 --> 40:43.600
Google is relatively new in terms of Internet usage.

40:44.760 --> 40:50.920
Yahoo – I remember going originally to Yahoo when it was akebono.stanford.edu.

40:51.320 --> 40:51.640
Right.

40:52.200 --> 41:01.060
And it was the name of a – for those trivia buffs out there, that was the name of the first U.S. Japanese national sumo wrestling champion.

41:01.060 --> 41:09.040
And so the Jerry Filo and Jerry Yang, I believe, were both engineering students at Stanford when they started that.

41:09.120 --> 41:13.620
And I emailed them about some things when it originally got going, like in 95, and they emailed me back.

41:13.700 --> 41:15.120
I should have saved that email, I guess.

41:15.380 --> 41:23.440
But anyway, so Google is relatively new in terms of things about, what was it, 97, 98 that they came out.

41:23.440 --> 41:28.680
And they have – they're very powerful search algorithms.

41:28.880 --> 41:33.400
They have caches of this information, the data that's available on websites.

41:33.840 --> 41:37.140
They basically have replicated on their servers.

41:37.900 --> 41:45.340
And if you ever do a Google search, you may notice on the last line of the little summary, most of the pages say cached.

41:45.340 --> 41:54.560
And if it's not available online, you can sometimes go click on that cached version of that page and find something that's been taken offline already.

41:54.660 --> 41:55.480
So that's very powerful.

41:56.240 --> 42:02.880
So Google has this – it seems originally kind of like a grassroots type of growing thing for search engines.

42:03.020 --> 42:07.140
And it replaced – outpaced, I should say, AltaVista.

42:07.800 --> 42:09.840
AltaVista was majorly huge.

42:09.900 --> 42:11.080
It was very cool technology.

42:11.080 --> 42:14.600
AltaVista has been sold a few times now, and it's practically nonexistent.

42:15.240 --> 42:19.720
So Google is one of the big players in search engines.

42:20.620 --> 42:26.000
And millions and millions and millions of people – sounds like Carl Sagan – billions and billions of stars.

42:27.020 --> 42:32.320
People are going to Google and using it as their resource for finding things.

42:33.000 --> 42:38.520
And even as we were setting up for the show, I forgot how to disable – how to defeat call waiting on my phone here.

42:38.580 --> 42:39.200
They call it Stank.

42:39.200 --> 42:47.480
So I went to Google, I typed site, colon, quest.com, space, call waiting, and the asterisk.

42:47.780 --> 42:52.100
And bingo, it was quicker doing that than going into Quest's site and trying to find things.

42:52.600 --> 43:01.840
So it becomes such a part of our lives, such a part of our online lives that – the various terms, Googling.

43:02.100 --> 43:03.420
You know, you Google for yourself.

43:03.520 --> 43:04.200
You go searching.

43:04.560 --> 43:05.660
You know, we don't search anymore.

43:05.740 --> 43:06.780
We Google for things.

43:06.780 --> 43:17.160
And one of the articles – there was a link back out through Slashdot – is putting forth the supposition that Google and Yahoo

43:17.160 --> 43:23.360
and any of the large search engines like that are actually becoming virtually a desktop in and of themselves.

43:24.020 --> 43:31.980
So the operating system is becoming less relevant, whether you're running Mac or whether you're running Windows or Linux or BSD or what have you.

43:31.980 --> 43:33.880
So knowledge is power.

43:34.240 --> 43:35.160
Information is power.

43:35.740 --> 43:39.640
Google lets you tap into that power very easily.

43:39.760 --> 43:42.020
It's a very seductive kind of approach.

43:42.020 --> 43:48.520
So based on that, Google is doing like Yahoo and other places that have before.

43:49.000 --> 43:52.360
Google is developing itself into more or less a portal.

43:52.920 --> 44:03.220
So not only are you able to do search engine searches, you're able to do image searches, and you're able to use Frugal, which is looking for best prices for things.

44:03.220 --> 44:16.780
Now there's Google local where you can – it writes out a little cookie, which we'll probably touch on later, but it asks you your address, and you search for, I don't know, Pizza Hut, and it'll tell you the closest Pizza Hut to your house.

44:17.360 --> 44:18.360
And news groups?

44:18.700 --> 44:20.400
And the Google news groups, yeah.

44:21.960 --> 44:24.260
Basically, you can search on the Google news groups.

44:24.320 --> 44:24.660
Good point.

44:25.000 --> 44:26.340
You can search on the Google news groups.

44:26.340 --> 44:31.080
You can find Linus Torvald's original post about Linux, the Linux kernel.

44:31.220 --> 44:36.400
You can find Richard Stallman's original post almost some 25 years ago about the new project.

44:36.580 --> 44:38.840
Well, let's be careful of the terminology here.

44:38.900 --> 44:40.400
It's not Google's news groups.

44:41.140 --> 44:49.000
It's actually an archive of Usenet, an ongoing archive of Usenet news groups, which actually was originally owned by Deja News.

44:49.300 --> 44:50.480
Formerly owned by Deja News.

44:50.600 --> 44:51.660
And Google bought it out.

44:51.820 --> 44:52.620
Google bought it out.

44:52.620 --> 44:56.040
We can search and see, again, how pervasive Google's become.

44:56.220 --> 44:57.220
I'm calling them Google news groups.

44:57.480 --> 44:59.800
But it stinks exactly right.

45:00.000 --> 45:04.140
It's that archive was taken, is put online, and it's searchable through there.

45:04.200 --> 45:09.320
So Google is doing all this stuff, and I was listening to the Motley Fool on NPR today.

45:09.900 --> 45:14.980
Google's getting ready to do an IPO to go public and make even more money.

45:14.980 --> 45:23.000
So I just wanted to kind of lay a little bit of background, a little bit of background on stuff before we got into it a little more deeply.

45:23.120 --> 45:23.800
So take it away, Spank.

45:24.440 --> 45:24.720
All right.

45:24.780 --> 45:31.980
And actually, another little bit of trivia was you mentioned the sumo wrestler name for their server.

45:31.980 --> 45:44.400
They actually – I don't know if they still do this, but I know for several years as the site grew, they started adding more servers, and they started using names of several different sumo wrestlers, not just the one original.

45:44.820 --> 45:49.500
They named all of their – and I don't know if they ran out of them at some point or if they still go with that today.

45:49.500 --> 45:59.340
Okay, so that's another little tidbit of trivia, and I also wanted to interject, and let's – maybe this can be a little topic of debate.

45:59.980 --> 46:02.500
Why is – you mentioned AltaVista.

46:03.920 --> 46:17.500
Now, I'm almost – I'm pretty confident to say that AltaVista still, believe it or not, has almost as many indexes, pages, as Google in its engine.

46:17.500 --> 46:32.040
Why is Google so more widespread, so much larger and more powerful than AltaVista, considering they both have the same or close to the same number of pages in their engine?

46:34.220 --> 46:45.340
There's actually also another search that – another search engine that was using a different kind of algorithms called Tioma, which I guess is supposed to be an Irish word for expert.

46:45.340 --> 46:50.600
I'll have to look it up now that I'm taking Irish language, but – and that was bought out by Ask Jeeves.

46:51.300 --> 46:55.920
So there are – and there's Dogpile, and there's all the web, and there's all these other places out there.

46:56.040 --> 47:01.160
So, again, that begs the question, why does Google have such a mindshare?

47:01.600 --> 47:08.240
And don't forget InktoMy, and my – the one I've been using more than anything recently, I mentioned on the show, is Vivissimo,

47:08.240 --> 47:16.440
which is not actually a search engine in and of itself, but it organizes results from all the other search engines, which I thought was kind of neat.

47:16.440 --> 47:26.660
Well, and yeah, that is the question, is why is Google the one – I mean, I have to say, first of all, the ease of use factor.

47:26.780 --> 47:27.660
I mean, let's be honest.

47:28.460 --> 47:35.740
You go to Google, and you get a search thing right then and there in front of you that's very simple, yet at the same time can be very, very powerful.

47:35.740 --> 47:42.620
So AltaVista is kind of the same way, too, but like you said, they changed hands a few times,

47:42.620 --> 47:51.100
and each one wanted to add more advertising and pop-ups and stuff like that to it, and I think that's what killed them, believe it or not.

47:51.680 --> 47:53.640
And they were bought and sold a number of times.

47:53.800 --> 48:00.900
I think DEC, Digital Equipment Corporation, originally had AltaVista, and Compaq acquired that when Compaq took things over.

48:00.980 --> 48:04.140
It's been bought and sold a few times since that point.

48:04.140 --> 48:07.920
Yeah, my bookmark was AltaVista.Digital.com.

48:08.120 --> 48:08.320
Yep.

48:08.880 --> 48:09.200
You know?

48:10.280 --> 48:15.700
So now, as you mentioned, Google's turned into a portal, and let's also back up.

48:15.980 --> 48:17.840
Yahoo has a lot of those same features, too.

48:18.340 --> 48:23.840
Right, and I was also going to mention, too, until recently, wasn't Yahoo using Google's search engine?

48:24.440 --> 48:28.320
Yahoo stopped using their own search engine technology a long time ago.

48:28.980 --> 48:32.980
They licensed AltaVista's search engine when they were popular.

48:32.980 --> 48:35.900
They licensed InktoMy for a little while.

48:36.320 --> 48:39.700
Then Google hit, and they've been with Google for quite a while now.

48:40.020 --> 48:45.580
They actually bought, like, last year, they bought some other search engine technology company, and they've recently dumped Google.

48:45.920 --> 48:52.220
Yeah, I think they're in the process of redeveloping their own, which may have been based on something they bought,

48:52.720 --> 48:55.380
which is ironic considering where they came from as well.

48:55.380 --> 48:58.360
So, interesting stuff.

48:59.320 --> 49:00.660
Comes full circle, I guess.

49:00.660 --> 49:07.920
Now, a couple of the things that we wanted to talk about in regards to Google are a couple of their features,

49:08.080 --> 49:11.440
a couple of their functions, and they have been in the news lately.

49:13.080 --> 49:13.740
You know what?

49:13.740 --> 49:19.540
Let's jump and go straight to the Gmail, because I want to see how this is going to shake out first

49:19.540 --> 49:22.220
and see what time we have for some of the other topics.

49:22.340 --> 49:23.540
We may have to do a part two.

49:23.800 --> 49:28.220
We may have to do another episode next week to finish all these topics, because we're going pretty long already.

49:29.020 --> 49:33.140
But we've got time to talk about the Gmail, which was announced.

49:33.240 --> 49:37.720
See, quite honestly, I'm still not convinced that this is not an April Fool's joke.

49:38.360 --> 49:40.860
Well, that's the trouble when anything's released in April Fool's.

49:40.860 --> 49:43.120
You have to wonder if it's really, if it's for real or not.

49:43.440 --> 49:43.800
Absolutely.

49:44.060 --> 49:50.060
I'm still wondering, and it's, from a logistical standpoint, is my reasoning for it.

49:50.460 --> 49:52.680
And we'll come to that later on, but...

49:52.680 --> 49:55.240
Well, there really is a Gmail.com site.

49:56.000 --> 49:57.680
Gmail.google.com.

49:57.960 --> 49:59.420
Well, you can go to Gmail.com.

49:59.420 --> 50:00.160
Oh, there is?

50:00.200 --> 50:01.560
I don't know that I've ever tried that.

50:01.640 --> 50:02.420
That's a good...

50:02.420 --> 50:07.060
And now, interestingly, if you go to, this is an extra little gem for you.

50:07.060 --> 50:12.940
There's a great, for doing who is stuff, there's a great website called whois.sc.

50:13.440 --> 50:13.760
Right.

50:14.180 --> 50:21.120
If you go to whois.sc and look up Gmail, they point back and show the records.

50:21.300 --> 50:25.440
And it was alldomains.com, probably one of those domain squatting type of places, isn't that?

50:25.860 --> 50:32.120
But they have the screenshot from January 15th that's showing this company called NetConcept.

50:32.120 --> 50:38.700
And DNS stuff is all NS1 through NS4 at google.com and so on and so forth.

50:38.820 --> 50:40.500
But kind of an interesting little thing there.

50:40.720 --> 50:44.980
And then, if you go to this NetConcept, I looked up the NetConcept site, went to there,

50:45.460 --> 50:52.000
and they have a link that actually points back to a private IP address, 192.168.1.1.

50:52.000 --> 50:56.440
And so when you click on it, if you have one of these home routers and you use the default setting...

50:56.440 --> 50:58.200
And you happen to use .1.1.

50:58.320 --> 50:58.700
Yeah, right.

50:58.740 --> 51:01.600
And you use .1.1, it pops up and asks you for a username and password.

51:01.720 --> 51:02.960
So it was really kind of bizarre.

51:03.300 --> 51:09.460
But, again, so if you go to whois.sc and look up Gmail, I don't know how long this will still be there.

51:09.460 --> 51:14.180
But we should maybe take a screenshot and pop that up on the site related to the show notes here.

51:14.460 --> 51:18.720
Yeah, after the show airs, it might be discovered and taken down quickly.

51:19.000 --> 51:19.280
Right.

51:19.940 --> 51:25.900
So, but anyway, so Gmail was announced April 1st, which, again, you always have to take with a grain of salt.

51:26.500 --> 51:31.680
The idea was that you can have a lifetime email address for free,

51:32.520 --> 51:38.860
and you can have one gigabyte of data storage, one gigabyte of message storage.

51:38.860 --> 51:44.720
Well, yeah, actually, before, let's, let's, there are, there's four things that I, I cut and pasted this out of.

51:44.740 --> 51:47.460
There's four things that they list as the main features.

51:47.740 --> 51:49.140
It's right on the main page.

51:49.920 --> 51:54.740
And, yeah, the hunt, the, the, the 1,000 megabytes or one gigabyte is one of them.

51:55.040 --> 51:57.460
But I thought we'd talk about each one of these real quickly.

51:57.580 --> 51:59.160
Just shoot down this list.

51:59.940 --> 52:02.640
And the first one is, is search, don't sort.

52:03.680 --> 52:08.760
Use Google search to find the exact message you want, no matter when it was sent or received.

52:09.760 --> 52:13.400
And that actually leads directly into what you just mentioned.

52:13.500 --> 52:17.080
And they, their feature list says, don't throw anything away.

52:17.240 --> 52:19.580
1,000 megabytes of free storage.

52:19.740 --> 52:22.380
So you'll never need to delete another message.

52:22.580 --> 52:23.640
Keep all your spam forever.

52:24.300 --> 52:29.240
Yeah, I, you know, besides the spam aspect of it, which they claim they're going to try.

52:29.240 --> 52:31.200
Yeah, so does, you know, Hotmail tries it.

52:31.240 --> 52:32.140
Yahoo Mail tries it.

52:32.160 --> 52:37.620
Every other mail, you're not going to stop it, you know, as long as they're working on human markup language.

52:37.720 --> 52:38.380
But I digress.

52:40.120 --> 52:46.520
I, I, this is the main reason I still think this could be, I'm still not giving up that this is still an April Fool's joke.

52:47.140 --> 52:51.860
I still am not giving up on this because, let's, let's, let's follow this train of thought here.

52:53.860 --> 53:02.760
Do you know how much web space, how much storage disk space it would take to give a gigabyte of storage to everybody who asks for it or wants it?

53:02.760 --> 53:06.180
Do you know how cheap a gig of storage space is?

53:06.300 --> 53:08.240
Yes, and it's not a matter of cost.

53:08.420 --> 53:09.640
It's not a matter of cost.

53:09.740 --> 53:10.920
It's a matter of logistics.

53:11.600 --> 53:12.500
It's about 50 cents.

53:12.780 --> 53:16.140
First of all, first of all, if they've got that much space, archive the web.

53:16.280 --> 53:18.020
They make a cache copy of some things.

53:18.140 --> 53:19.200
Pretty much do already now.

53:19.260 --> 53:20.700
No, they make one cache copy.

53:20.800 --> 53:23.200
Go to archive.org and look at that project.

53:23.480 --> 53:25.560
That is archiving the web.

53:25.860 --> 53:25.960
Right.

53:25.960 --> 53:29.220
That is how it could, should be done, but again, space.

53:29.720 --> 53:29.980
So.

53:29.980 --> 53:34.400
Well, should we get through the other, the other two points here, the other two bullet points?

53:34.560 --> 53:35.760
And you want to, and come back to it?

53:35.960 --> 53:36.120
Yeah.

53:36.240 --> 53:36.440
Okay.

53:36.980 --> 53:40.360
Their third one is keep it all in context.

53:40.840 --> 53:44.820
Each message is grouped with all of its replies and displayed as a conversation.

53:45.720 --> 53:47.160
Okay, that's threaded viewing.

53:47.700 --> 53:52.560
They've had that in mail clients for a while now, and just like their news groups have set up,

53:52.560 --> 53:56.140
they might even have based it somewhat on the technology they use to display the news groups.

53:56.900 --> 53:58.420
As a matter of fact, I can't, now I'm interested to see it.

53:58.420 --> 54:02.100
I bet you it will look very much like they organized the Google news groups.

54:03.980 --> 54:07.120
And the fourth thing is no pop-up ads, no banners.

54:07.260 --> 54:11.340
You see only relevant text ads and links to related web pages of interest.

54:12.100 --> 54:14.080
Now, they still have ads with 1D.

54:14.420 --> 54:16.840
They still have advertisements, but just not pop-ups.

54:16.840 --> 54:24.640
So, these ads are really what I think you want to go into in a moment, and this is really a very valid privacy concern.

54:24.640 --> 54:31.420
But before we go into it, let's go back to the logistics of this space that they're going to take up.

54:31.420 --> 54:38.760
First of all, one gigabyte of space, I mean, imagine what you can do with that.

54:39.540 --> 54:41.300
Imagine how many ISOs you could upload.

54:41.420 --> 54:48.280
Put up a Linux distro, save it, store it on your email, mail it to yourself, mail it to everybody you know.

54:48.880 --> 54:49.180
Right.

54:49.180 --> 54:52.440
Now, here's the thing, we started talking about that at our 2600 meeting this month.

54:52.560 --> 54:52.820
Okay.

54:53.120 --> 54:59.040
And there's techniques they can use when you, and there's counter-techniques for this as well.

54:59.180 --> 55:01.620
And that actually gets back to the old, like, use net days.

55:01.920 --> 55:07.460
But if they could put limits in saying, all right, first of all, attachments, you can't have no more, nothing larger than,

55:07.820 --> 55:09.460
let me arbitrarily pick a number, 100 meg.

55:10.280 --> 55:10.600
Right.

55:10.600 --> 55:16.780
So what you would have to do then, you start losing the convenience factor when you have to start making, you know,

55:16.800 --> 55:21.560
breaking that 700 meg ISO down into chunks of 100 megs.

55:22.100 --> 55:28.100
They could also say that they won't store, that they won't give of that gig of disk space.

55:28.240 --> 55:29.040
It's mainly for messages.

55:29.380 --> 55:36.400
They could say out of that gig of disk space at any one time, you can only have 500 megs of active attachments, period.

55:37.000 --> 55:38.680
So then you would have to go to a scheme.

55:38.680 --> 55:40.760
So here's, like, the counter-banding thing, right?

55:41.000 --> 55:50.600
Then you'd have to go to, like, a UUN code scheme that we used to do back in the day where you're converting all that 8-bit ASCII to 7-bit ASCII

55:50.600 --> 55:52.300
and putting that as part of your message.

55:52.840 --> 55:56.680
And, yes, for those technical people out there, I do realize that all e-mail is converted.

55:57.500 --> 56:02.880
It is actually 7-bit ASCII as it's transversing through the things, and it's MIM headers that take care of that.

56:03.200 --> 56:06.780
But when you start taking that convenience factor away from people doing this,

56:06.780 --> 56:14.560
so there's several mitigating techniques that Google could use to help reduce that.

56:14.560 --> 56:21.100
But those same things are what was trying to control Usenet, which we mentioned earlier.

56:21.680 --> 56:29.460
And UUN code, or Unix to Unix encoding, is still alive and used every day by people in news groups and the alt binaries and stuff like that,

56:29.500 --> 56:30.960
and the binaries news groups out there.

56:30.960 --> 56:32.520
And it gets broken apart.

56:32.740 --> 56:34.120
It is plain ASCII text.

56:34.180 --> 56:40.440
It's not an attachment because, like you said earlier, we know that the data is going through there as ASCII text.

56:40.500 --> 56:45.780
We know that it gets put back together on the opposite end to look like a, quote, attachment.

56:46.160 --> 56:47.960
There's not really an attachment per se.

56:48.320 --> 56:48.540
Right.

56:48.540 --> 56:52.860
You know, it's text, and they're going to have a tough time distinguishing.

56:53.920 --> 56:54.760
Well, not really.

56:54.940 --> 56:57.960
Think about it because something has to decode it on the other end.

56:58.420 --> 57:03.160
So you look for, you know, you look for the patterns, you look for the signature, you look for the MIM header,

57:03.600 --> 57:05.660
and they could just simply detach that.

57:05.860 --> 57:10.200
Okay, what if I put up a fake MIM header in front of my real plain ASCII text message?

57:10.700 --> 57:10.940
Right.

57:11.080 --> 57:14.740
See, that's, again, when you start doing that type of thing, you start taking away the convenience factor.

57:14.740 --> 57:20.080
The next thing is, and this brings up a, and this relates to my privacy issue,

57:20.160 --> 57:24.080
but what if you encrypt the message and you encrypt the entire message,

57:24.200 --> 57:27.480
and now you can't tell that it's a UU encoded attached message.

57:27.660 --> 57:29.800
Right, and I was getting ready to say that exact same thing.

57:29.980 --> 57:31.640
So there are ways around things.

57:31.700 --> 57:32.200
It's the old story.

57:32.240 --> 57:35.060
You can't ever make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious, right?

57:35.160 --> 57:38.560
So, you know, it'll constantly be a battle.

57:39.440 --> 57:41.500
You know, they'll turn off some feature.

57:41.500 --> 57:45.960
They'll disable something, and people will hack in the true original sense of the word.

57:46.020 --> 57:48.360
They'll find a clever solution and will work your way around it.

57:48.760 --> 57:55.020
Right, and, you know, frankly, when you offer up that carrot of one gigabyte of storage, people are going to use it.

57:55.100 --> 57:58.240
They're going to try to use it, and they're going to try to figure out ways to use it.

57:58.280 --> 58:02.640
For every hurdle that you put up there, they're going to jump over it, crawl under it, or go around it.

58:02.660 --> 58:03.500
They're going to try their best.

58:03.620 --> 58:09.120
When you dangle that one gigabyte of storage out in front of them, they want it, and they're going to try to use it.

58:09.120 --> 58:12.720
Don't offer it if you don't intend on allowing people to use it easily.

58:13.540 --> 58:16.640
And that gets back to the link.

58:16.760 --> 58:20.020
The story's up on April 11th if you want to check it out on Slashdot.

58:21.000 --> 58:27.120
It's called Google's Next Steps, and it links off to an article at USA Today, and, again, I touched on this,

58:27.480 --> 58:30.460
saying that Google is trying to position itself to be the desktop.

58:30.460 --> 58:37.400
Because if you can get to your e-mail and if you can have your, you know, your word processing documents and other things there,

58:37.700 --> 58:41.080
it doesn't matter what computer you're using to get there.

58:41.760 --> 58:43.280
That becomes marginalized.

58:44.420 --> 58:46.440
The data is the key.

58:46.540 --> 58:47.180
Data is king.

58:47.580 --> 58:53.800
You know, you can go down to, you know, any store, virtually anywhere in this country, and, not any store,

58:53.860 --> 58:57.100
you can go to a lot of stores, you can go practically anywhere in this country and buy a computer.

58:57.100 --> 59:02.200
Some places, more easily than others, I realize, but you can buy the operating system,

59:02.280 --> 59:03.580
or you can download the operating system.

59:03.680 --> 59:06.220
If you're using a free operating system, you can buy a copy of Windows.

59:06.720 --> 59:08.100
You can bootleg a copy of Windows.

59:08.200 --> 59:08.920
You can do whatever you want.

59:09.200 --> 59:10.540
You can get the data.

59:10.760 --> 59:11.940
I mean, you can get the operating system.

59:12.240 --> 59:13.920
You can get the programs, right?

59:13.980 --> 59:15.080
That's becoming marginalized.

59:15.300 --> 59:16.320
That's becoming a commodity.

59:16.920 --> 59:19.420
What you can't get is that information.

59:19.420 --> 59:27.400
So, now, if you can start storing your information, or you have links through search engines like Google and Yahoo

59:27.400 --> 59:34.500
and all the others we've mentioned, if you can get to that easily, it doesn't matter what operating system you're running.

59:35.100 --> 59:41.660
And Microsoft obviously hates that issue, and that's why Microsoft is also looking at becoming a big player in the search engine business,

59:41.660 --> 59:46.620
but kind of getting slightly off track there, but Google is in a very good place,

59:46.700 --> 59:52.640
and they're positioning themselves very well to become this portal, and portals more so than, you know,

59:52.660 --> 59:55.940
we had portals a few years ago where, you know, we had the news feeds,

59:56.160 --> 01:00:00.820
and we had all this other garbage-y stuff that we didn't really necessarily need.

01:00:01.140 --> 01:00:03.780
But Google is positioning itself very well for that.

01:00:03.780 --> 01:00:07.200
Well, and I'm sorry, if I can interrupt for just a second, since you mentioned Microsoft.

01:00:08.420 --> 01:00:17.520
There was, and I should confirm this, but I'm pretty sure Microsoft actually made an attempt to buy Google in fall of last year, fall 2003.

01:00:17.980 --> 01:00:21.840
They made an attempt to buy Google for $10 million and got turned down.

01:00:22.240 --> 01:00:24.420
I think Microsoft attempted to buy every company.

01:00:24.580 --> 01:00:27.720
Microsoft tried to buy Intuit to make it quicken years ago.

01:00:27.720 --> 01:00:35.280
So Microsoft, not many people know this, back probably in the mid-'90s, Microsoft tried to buy Novell,

01:00:35.940 --> 01:00:38.340
and Microsoft, you know, tries to buy anything.

01:00:38.540 --> 01:00:41.620
So I guess it's a good sign when, first of all, they try to buy it.

01:00:41.680 --> 01:00:45.240
It's a better sign when you say no thanks.

01:00:45.740 --> 01:00:50.120
Yeah, and that could have been a devastating combination for exactly what you described.

01:00:50.260 --> 01:00:55.460
However, it's also scary because I don't remember where I've read this article at.

01:00:55.460 --> 01:01:05.880
I remember it being somewhat reliable, but they actually got, Microsoft got a little bit offended, upset that their offer was refused,

01:01:06.280 --> 01:01:10.480
and supposedly lit a fire under them, to use a metaphor.

01:01:10.740 --> 01:01:14.800
They decided that they were going to refocus on their own search engine technology

01:01:14.800 --> 01:01:19.960
and develop their own new system to try to knock Google off the top spot.

01:01:20.420 --> 01:01:22.340
That's Microsoft's typical M.O.

01:01:22.340 --> 01:01:31.340
Yeah, absolutely, but let's be honest, they frequently succeed by sometimes questionable means, but...

01:01:32.120 --> 01:01:34.320
Oh, yeah, I mean, they're very successful at that.

01:01:34.760 --> 01:01:38.320
They're very... look at all the... I was reading another article relating to that,

01:01:38.380 --> 01:01:43.100
but, you know, you basically, when you're a hardware company in Silicon Valley,

01:01:43.240 --> 01:01:45.920
you want a company like Cisco to come and buy you,

01:01:45.920 --> 01:01:50.080
and then you take the golden parachute and you're, you know, fat and happy for the rest of your life.

01:01:50.460 --> 01:01:55.020
When you're a software company, you hope you don't get too big to be noticed by Microsoft

01:01:55.020 --> 01:01:57.260
because Microsoft will basically eat you alive.

01:01:57.760 --> 01:02:01.360
And if they don't acquire you, they will eat your lunch.

01:02:01.900 --> 01:02:04.860
They will... Microsoft has enough money, the $40 billion in the bank,

01:02:05.420 --> 01:02:09.620
that they could basically give Windows away and give all their stuff away

01:02:09.620 --> 01:02:13.040
and pay most of their employees for the next five years

01:02:13.040 --> 01:02:16.580
and not charge a single dime and still come out okay on the other side.

01:02:17.120 --> 01:02:21.320
And, by the way, that is in Robert Kringley's latest article, if you want to read more about that.

01:02:21.580 --> 01:02:24.540
So, but, you know, Microsoft is just this huge behemoth

01:02:24.540 --> 01:02:27.380
when they set their sights on something.

01:02:28.120 --> 01:02:29.640
You know, they can get it done.

01:02:29.700 --> 01:02:30.540
They have enough resources.

01:02:30.880 --> 01:02:33.240
They have enough talent, despite what you may think of their programmers.

01:02:33.240 --> 01:02:37.540
They have enough talent, resources, and money, mainly, being the main resource,

01:02:37.540 --> 01:02:39.220
that they can do these things.

01:02:39.640 --> 01:02:44.700
However, as we try to, you know, we're using other things

01:02:44.700 --> 01:02:47.900
and as people are getting more and more dissatisfied with Microsoft

01:02:47.900 --> 01:02:51.860
and their business practices, having alternatives is good.

01:02:52.400 --> 01:02:58.160
Now, that having been said, any kind of monopoly, any kind of huge thing like Google

01:02:59.160 --> 01:03:05.400
has tons of potential opportunities for doing bad things.

01:03:05.400 --> 01:03:08.200
And there's a site I want to point out to everyone.

01:03:08.300 --> 01:03:12.020
If you haven't seen it and you've used Google, you should know about this site anyway.

01:03:12.520 --> 01:03:15.560
It's called google-watch.org.

01:03:15.940 --> 01:03:18.080
Where a lot of this information comes from.

01:03:18.360 --> 01:03:18.680
Exactly.

01:03:18.880 --> 01:03:23.680
Google Watch will give you, they have links and lots of analyses on things.

01:03:23.760 --> 01:03:26.560
They look at Google's evil cookie that doesn't expire for 35 years.

01:03:26.560 --> 01:03:31.900
And they have an anonymous Google ad-free proxy that you can surf

01:03:31.900 --> 01:03:35.860
and it'll pass the information back and forth and you won't, you won't,

01:03:36.400 --> 01:03:37.540
Google won't be tracking you.

01:03:37.940 --> 01:03:38.020
Right.

01:03:38.220 --> 01:03:42.320
But, so, so Google is not, I mean, let's face it, they're, you know,

01:03:42.340 --> 01:03:43.200
they're in it for the money too.

01:03:43.240 --> 01:03:44.760
And again, there's nothing wrong with making money.

01:03:44.900 --> 01:03:47.440
And if you have, if you do something, well, you can make a lot of money.

01:03:47.440 --> 01:03:47.940
That's great.

01:03:48.600 --> 01:03:53.320
But now we start getting into the more nefarious sides of things.

01:03:53.920 --> 01:03:54.120
All right.

01:03:54.200 --> 01:03:59.980
Well, you know, let's hold up here for just a second to let you know we're at an hour and going.

01:04:00.420 --> 01:04:05.700
So let me make this one point and then step aside

01:04:05.700 --> 01:04:08.360
and let's talk about the privacy aspects of this.

01:04:09.180 --> 01:04:13.120
We've got maybe 15 more minutes we can go with this and still make it.

01:04:13.120 --> 01:04:17.760
So speaking of, this kind of relates to the money factor

01:04:17.760 --> 01:04:21.600
and how much they're going to have to invest, especially with this Gmail.

01:04:21.840 --> 01:04:23.120
This is not a small undertaking.

01:04:23.240 --> 01:04:24.780
This is a very huge thing.

01:04:25.440 --> 01:04:29.840
And like I mentioned earlier about the logistics of this, let's, let's use an example.

01:04:29.980 --> 01:04:32.360
Let's, let's keep the numbers close to home for a second here.

01:04:32.600 --> 01:04:36.240
We have 600 people, close to 600 people in our forums.

01:04:36.840 --> 01:04:40.660
And if each one of those people is assigned a gigabyte of storage

01:04:40.660 --> 01:04:44.820
and I don't know what they're, how they're going to handle allocation and stuff like that.

01:04:44.860 --> 01:04:46.060
They're going to give you a gig outright.

01:04:46.280 --> 01:04:47.260
I don't know how that's going to work.

01:04:47.320 --> 01:04:47.860
We don't know yet.

01:04:48.340 --> 01:04:51.340
But 600 gigabytes, that's a lot of space already.

01:04:51.940 --> 01:04:54.040
That's, you know, three 200 gig hard drives.

01:04:55.100 --> 01:04:57.600
They make bigger than 200 gig, I'm pretty sure.

01:04:57.980 --> 01:05:01.000
But, you know, that's three, at least three big hard drives.

01:05:02.280 --> 01:05:03.120
Probably mirrored.

01:05:03.440 --> 01:05:04.260
So you're going to have duplicates.

01:05:04.340 --> 01:05:06.960
You're going to have some kind of backup process in there, something like that.

01:05:06.960 --> 01:05:11.060
Now, that's just for our tiny little corner of the web.

01:05:12.320 --> 01:05:17.060
Take into account, I met, I looked this up on one of the show notes from one of our previous episodes

01:05:17.060 --> 01:05:20.000
on when we talked about the single sign on a Microsoft Passport.

01:05:20.640 --> 01:05:25.400
Microsoft Passport has 200 million users.

01:05:25.520 --> 01:05:27.340
And the majority of those are Hotmail users.

01:05:27.460 --> 01:05:28.660
They kind of go hand in hand.

01:05:29.640 --> 01:05:30.760
200 million.

01:05:30.760 --> 01:05:35.020
200 million times one gigabyte of storage for each person.

01:05:35.400 --> 01:05:40.300
It's not so much the money and how cheap it is per gig or per meg, et cetera, et cetera.

01:05:41.140 --> 01:05:45.880
I don't know that that much hard drive space was ever created in all of time.

01:05:47.860 --> 01:05:53.420
From the day that hard drives were first manufactured to now, I don't know if that so much storage exists.

01:05:53.860 --> 01:05:54.220
Oh, sure.

01:05:54.320 --> 01:05:54.760
Think about it.

01:05:54.780 --> 01:06:00.100
Those 200 million people, most of them probably have larger than a one gigabyte hard drive on their computer.

01:06:00.100 --> 01:06:01.280
So it definitely exists.

01:06:01.520 --> 01:06:02.680
You know what?

01:06:02.720 --> 01:06:04.260
That's a fantastic point.

01:06:04.340 --> 01:06:05.240
You're absolutely right.

01:06:05.340 --> 01:06:05.720
There is.

01:06:06.480 --> 01:06:09.340
But that's still a huge logistical nightmare.

01:06:09.600 --> 01:06:11.880
And then, like I said, you're going to have backups and stuff like that.

01:06:11.980 --> 01:06:19.700
So you're going to then, I won't say double it, but essentially double it or at least come up with some kind of good RAID backup plans for the whole system.

01:06:19.800 --> 01:06:27.780
So there's going to actually be more than that, not to mention all the application driving end of it and interface end of it and graphics, et cetera, et cetera.

01:06:28.760 --> 01:06:31.600
So that's a lot of space.

01:06:31.600 --> 01:06:35.640
And that's still to this day why I'm questioning whether or not this is real or not.

01:06:35.960 --> 01:06:38.060
If it is, wow.

01:06:38.880 --> 01:06:39.900
That's all I can say.

01:06:39.980 --> 01:06:40.300
Wow.

01:06:40.400 --> 01:06:49.320
If you've got that much space, I'm saying archive the Internet with it instead of creating a million e-mail addresses with gigabytes of storage to me.

01:06:49.520 --> 01:06:50.960
It seems kind of...

01:06:50.960 --> 01:06:53.100
Well, I signed up for getting one.

01:06:53.220 --> 01:06:57.180
I wanted, you know, as soon as I heard about it, I signed up and wanted to get my name on the list there to see.

01:06:57.420 --> 01:06:57.800
So it'd be...

01:06:57.800 --> 01:07:00.300
Well, it's because you wanted to waive your privacy, obviously.

01:07:00.680 --> 01:07:03.420
Well, you know, I can be very selective at what I put on there, too.

01:07:03.780 --> 01:07:04.060
Right.

01:07:04.140 --> 01:07:05.040
They want to investigate.

01:07:05.040 --> 01:07:11.620
I mean, that's kind of what I always see in my role in things is to be that pioneer and investigate these things.

01:07:11.800 --> 01:07:15.140
And I'm absolutely the same way, and I'm dying to see what...

01:07:15.140 --> 01:07:18.020
I can't wait until they open it up so I can start playing with it and see what it does.

01:07:18.720 --> 01:07:21.980
But, you know, again, you mentioned earlier about how they're going to not let you do this.

01:07:22.060 --> 01:07:23.620
They might put a limit on file size.

01:07:23.700 --> 01:07:25.400
They might not allow you to upload binaries.

01:07:25.520 --> 01:07:26.800
They might let you, et cetera, et cetera.

01:07:26.800 --> 01:07:32.720
Well, then, doesn't it seem kind of counterproductive to giving you a gigabyte of space?

01:07:33.200 --> 01:07:35.500
What else would you use a gigabyte of space for?

01:07:35.820 --> 01:07:37.040
All of your email messages.

01:07:37.400 --> 01:07:38.100
All of your emails?

01:07:38.100 --> 01:07:38.820
That's their intent.

01:07:38.960 --> 01:07:40.600
Their plain ASCII text?

01:07:41.200 --> 01:07:43.700
Yeah, plain ASCII text, maybe with a limited amount of things.

01:07:43.780 --> 01:07:47.160
I'm just going to go take a look on my system here as we're talking.

01:07:47.340 --> 01:07:47.660
Okay.

01:07:47.820 --> 01:07:55.980
I may not be an average user here, but I'm just going to take a look and see just how much space I'm using on my hard drives for my email.

01:07:55.980 --> 01:07:58.880
Now, what email application are you using before you go there?

01:07:59.340 --> 01:08:01.100
Well, I've switched over the years.

01:08:01.180 --> 01:08:09.100
I've got, you know, several years' worth of email that I've worked on, and I'm currently using Thunderbird, Mozilla Thunderbird.

01:08:09.200 --> 01:08:09.420
Right.

01:08:09.760 --> 01:08:11.280
That's exactly what I'm using at home.

01:08:11.520 --> 01:08:11.720
Okay.

01:08:12.040 --> 01:08:15.000
And this is with my attachments, with all my various boxes in that.

01:08:15.700 --> 01:08:17.200
It's 760 meg.

01:08:18.000 --> 01:08:19.760
And that's over several years.

01:08:19.920 --> 01:08:25.540
And if I take off all my attachments, which is about 260 of that, you know, I'm using maybe about 500 megs.

01:08:25.540 --> 01:08:28.980
I'm using half a gig already, not in counting attachments.

01:08:29.200 --> 01:08:29.800
And spam.

01:08:30.520 --> 01:08:31.060
No, no.

01:08:31.180 --> 01:08:32.260
That's definitely not spam.

01:08:32.400 --> 01:08:32.440
Right.

01:08:32.440 --> 01:08:37.340
I've got tons of filters, and for those few that do, you know, come through, I zap them right away.

01:08:37.440 --> 01:08:39.040
So that's not counting spam.

01:08:39.600 --> 01:08:39.880
Right.

01:08:40.000 --> 01:08:42.240
Spam is going to be a factor on these new servers, though.

01:08:42.760 --> 01:08:44.060
Oh, on there, absolutely.

01:08:44.060 --> 01:08:44.560
You know.

01:08:44.920 --> 01:08:52.720
But, you know, also looking at it, as we're talking here, I think probably that Gmail was kind of a clever, multi-layered entendre,

01:08:53.300 --> 01:08:58.100
because it's Google, it's mail instead of email, but it's also a gig that's Gmail.

01:08:58.320 --> 01:09:04.820
And as Stank knows, like my handle, Rack, there's about 10 levels of meaning for that, depending on which angle you're coming from.

01:09:04.880 --> 01:09:05.940
So I thought it was kind of funny.

01:09:05.940 --> 01:09:09.960
You know, and there's actually a good point here, too, in why would they do this?

01:09:10.260 --> 01:09:15.280
And there's a very clear, easy explanation that I think you and I both know, but maybe some of the users hadn't thought of this.

01:09:15.740 --> 01:09:16.840
Why would they do this?

01:09:16.920 --> 01:09:17.880
Why would they give you a thought?

01:09:17.960 --> 01:09:19.020
What's in it for them?

01:09:19.880 --> 01:09:20.940
And obviously it's advertising.

01:09:21.720 --> 01:09:24.480
You heard the expression, it was a movie, it's all about the Benjamins.

01:09:24.620 --> 01:09:25.980
It's all about the Benjamins.

01:09:25.980 --> 01:09:30.000
It's all about the advertising Benjamins, the advertising money.

01:09:30.420 --> 01:09:34.000
Now, they mentioned they're not doing pop-ups and things like that, no banner ads, big deal.

01:09:34.080 --> 01:09:36.940
They've still got their advertising, and everybody's seen their Google ads.

01:09:37.420 --> 01:09:38.840
They're fairly text-based.

01:09:38.980 --> 01:09:40.820
They're not all that intrusive, I guess.

01:09:41.220 --> 01:09:46.220
There's some questions about how you get higher on there and how you can buy keywords in it,

01:09:46.220 --> 01:09:49.660
and I think that's a topic for another time because we're definitely going over it.

01:09:49.940 --> 01:09:55.160
But they're going to have this email interface for you to look at your email.

01:09:55.160 --> 01:09:56.460
That's fine.

01:09:57.540 --> 01:10:01.120
In a ratio like you mentioned earlier about how little it costs for disk space,

01:10:01.520 --> 01:10:04.580
that visibility of every single page is going to have ads on it

01:10:04.580 --> 01:10:09.440
and the possibility of you clicking through them customized to whatever the content of your email is.

01:10:09.820 --> 01:10:14.120
And I think that's what we're going to talk about right now is how they're designing those ads

01:10:14.120 --> 01:10:15.920
and how they're going to deliver those ads to you.

01:10:16.220 --> 01:10:22.060
But from their perspective, from a business standpoint, they want that visibility of the advertisements.

01:10:22.060 --> 01:10:28.860
And every page that you view, and this is true of any online email, whether it's Yahoo, whether it's Hotmail,

01:10:29.340 --> 01:10:31.260
you see all the ads that they put on those.

01:10:31.340 --> 01:10:32.300
They may not be pop-ups.

01:10:32.400 --> 01:10:35.480
They may not be whatever, but you'll see several ads on one page.

01:10:35.960 --> 01:10:39.380
It's all about the visibility factor, and that's how they make their money.

01:10:39.460 --> 01:10:40.760
They can justify spending.

01:10:41.320 --> 01:10:42.840
What did you say earlier, 50 cents?

01:10:43.200 --> 01:10:45.940
50 cents a gig is about the street price of a drive now.

01:10:45.940 --> 01:10:47.060
50 cents a gig.

01:10:48.020 --> 01:10:49.000
50 cents a gig?

01:10:49.120 --> 01:10:49.500
A meg.

01:10:50.180 --> 01:10:51.020
No, 50 cents a gig.

01:10:51.580 --> 01:10:53.260
A 20 gig hard drive would cost $5?

01:10:53.800 --> 01:10:56.160
No, you're getting like a 200 gig drive.

01:10:56.760 --> 01:10:59.340
You know, after rebates and stuff and that on sale, you get for about $100.

01:11:02.760 --> 01:11:03.160
Okay.

01:11:03.160 --> 01:11:12.080
Anyway, for the cost of storage versus what they would make by giving someone to click through those ads,

01:11:12.240 --> 01:11:15.040
it's more than worth it to them from a business standpoint.

01:11:15.480 --> 01:11:16.740
That's really what I'm trying to say.

01:11:17.080 --> 01:11:19.480
That's what's in it for them, and that's why they're doing it.

01:11:21.020 --> 01:11:25.820
But those ads themselves, I know, is something that you wanted to talk about.

01:11:25.900 --> 01:11:27.340
So please, I won't interrupt.

01:11:27.440 --> 01:11:28.160
You go ahead and...

01:11:28.160 --> 01:11:32.960
Well, you know, sometimes, actually, believe it or not, I don't mind ads sometimes.

01:11:33.820 --> 01:11:36.940
Sometimes, like in technology magazines, I'm flipping through.

01:11:37.320 --> 01:11:40.200
You know, I'm interested in, let's say, like security, which I am.

01:11:40.580 --> 01:11:45.400
I get several computer security magazines, and there's advertisements, printed advertisements,

01:11:46.180 --> 01:11:49.860
in those magazines that are for security products and security topics.

01:11:50.560 --> 01:11:55.560
And because I'm interested in IT security, I may be interested in those products as well,

01:11:55.560 --> 01:11:59.240
which is great, and that's the traditional advertising model.

01:12:00.040 --> 01:12:04.260
So sometimes ads aren't a bad thing, and sometimes when I'm searching for something,

01:12:04.740 --> 01:12:06.060
sometimes those ads are okay.

01:12:06.920 --> 01:12:12.340
Sometimes it helps me find the things that I want, or it gives me more information, or what have you.

01:12:12.760 --> 01:12:16.080
And as Stank said, they're fairly inobtrusive.

01:12:16.080 --> 01:12:22.080
You know, they're not the blinking animated GIF, you know, that's blinking at a fast enough rate

01:12:22.080 --> 01:12:27.200
to give someone a seizure, as we've seen on so many of these other types of bad things.

01:12:27.440 --> 01:12:31.360
So, you know, advertising, again, necessarily, in and of itself, isn't bad.

01:12:32.000 --> 01:12:36.520
The thing that I take exception to, and the thing that I know a lot of people are questioning,

01:12:37.300 --> 01:12:38.960
is that privacy.

01:12:38.960 --> 01:12:42.460
So now I send Stank an email about,

01:12:43.180 --> 01:12:47.320
Stank, I just, you know, got this great new DSL modem.

01:12:47.820 --> 01:12:50.260
You know, it's made by, you know, XYZ Company.

01:12:50.400 --> 01:12:51.560
You really ought to go check it out.

01:12:52.000 --> 01:12:57.280
Well, Google is, or Gmail, is going to search through that, index that name,

01:12:57.700 --> 01:13:00.780
and when Stank is reading that email on his Gmail,

01:13:01.440 --> 01:13:05.380
there's going to be a little ad on the side that is for that company,

01:13:05.380 --> 01:13:09.100
or is for half a dozen different stores that are selling that particular product.

01:13:09.600 --> 01:13:14.040
Or worse yet, and I just thought of this with, when you made up this example,

01:13:14.620 --> 01:13:17.000
worse yet, a competitor to that company.

01:13:17.320 --> 01:13:18.820
Right, and I thought you said you weren't going to interrupt me.

01:13:18.960 --> 01:13:19.580
I'm sorry, go ahead.

01:13:21.660 --> 01:13:22.220
Go ahead.

01:13:22.420 --> 01:13:24.200
Okay, sorry, I was just messing with you.

01:13:24.300 --> 01:13:24.660
Oh, okay.

01:13:25.060 --> 01:13:26.360
Yeah, yeah, worse yet, a competitor.

01:13:27.120 --> 01:13:29.340
And there's been, you know, all kinds of stuff about that,

01:13:29.440 --> 01:13:33.600
like, you know, companies buying other companies' trademark names and...

01:13:33.600 --> 01:13:34.200
Keywords.

01:13:34.200 --> 01:13:34.860
Products, yeah.

01:13:35.240 --> 01:13:37.140
So, like, in other words, imagine this.

01:13:37.580 --> 01:13:41.040
If you're searching for, you know, information about Coca-Cola,

01:13:41.140 --> 01:13:43.200
you want to find out who the founder of Coca-Cola was,

01:13:43.660 --> 01:13:48.360
and Pepsi-Cola bought the keyword Coca-Cola, or bought for that search,

01:13:48.640 --> 01:13:51.160
and all the advertisements on the side were for Pepsi instead of Coke.

01:13:51.300 --> 01:13:52.360
So that's that issue.

01:13:52.760 --> 01:13:54.760
And that sounds like it could be a potential lawsuit.

01:13:55.120 --> 01:13:58.320
I mean, there already is discussion in copyright and keywords for Google.

01:13:58.400 --> 01:14:00.960
They're already in some discussion about that now,

01:14:00.960 --> 01:14:05.680
but that could be much more, could be much worse now that you're customizing it to people's e-mail

01:14:05.680 --> 01:14:07.520
and driving it to them a little bit more.

01:14:07.940 --> 01:14:08.920
Right, right.

01:14:08.960 --> 01:14:09.600
That's dangerous.

01:14:09.600 --> 01:14:14.420
Now, getting back to the privacy issue, so Google is going to, or Gmail,

01:14:14.820 --> 01:14:18.340
which is still Google, is going to be able to read my messages.

01:14:18.340 --> 01:14:26.220
And any time I'm sending someone a message about whatever, let's say I'm a bird watcher, let's say,

01:14:26.280 --> 01:14:30.860
and I'm sending that, well, on the side, when that person reads their mail through Gmail,

01:14:31.440 --> 01:14:34.180
there's going to be an ad for them, Amazon.com, for, you know,

01:14:34.260 --> 01:14:37.080
Field Guide to the Birds by Roger Torrey Peterson.

01:14:37.560 --> 01:14:38.880
Yeah, I used to be a bird watcher when I was a kid.

01:14:38.960 --> 01:14:39.780
Okay, I'll admit that.

01:14:40.940 --> 01:14:43.540
So the fact of the matter is...

01:14:43.540 --> 01:14:44.520
Come on, let's be honest.

01:14:44.540 --> 01:14:46.580
You were a pterodactyl watcher when you were a kid.

01:14:46.580 --> 01:14:48.100
Oh, dude, thanks, man.

01:14:48.120 --> 01:14:48.880
You're going to pay for that.

01:14:48.940 --> 01:14:49.660
You said I'm old?

01:14:50.280 --> 01:14:50.720
Burn!

01:14:51.100 --> 01:14:52.240
That's a payback burn.

01:14:53.120 --> 01:14:53.780
You're back to the bitch.

01:14:53.920 --> 01:14:54.020
Okay.

01:14:54.820 --> 01:14:59.860
So now, as we're looking at those kinds of things, right, we...

01:14:59.860 --> 01:15:06.460
It in and of itself isn't bad, but let's say, oh, some three-letter governmental agency

01:15:06.460 --> 01:15:11.280
wants to find out about certain things and people who are searching for certain terms.

01:15:11.280 --> 01:15:14.740
As a matter of fact, if you go to that google-watch.org,

01:15:14.740 --> 01:15:23.320
there's links and information out about that, that, you know, people searching for certain terms.

01:15:24.000 --> 01:15:24.660
You know, if I was...

01:15:24.660 --> 01:15:30.220
Let's say I was searching for information about the Koran, the Holy Book of Islam.

01:15:30.220 --> 01:15:38.000
So if some three-lettered governmental agency wanted to find out about people who are interested

01:15:38.000 --> 01:15:45.780
in the Islamic faith, for example, Gmail could be used, you know, under subpoena or whatever

01:15:45.780 --> 01:15:50.960
else in that, but Gmail could be used to find anyone who's ever mentioned anything about

01:15:50.960 --> 01:15:56.240
Islam or about the Koran or about Allah or about Krishna or about Buddha or about Jesus

01:15:56.240 --> 01:15:58.240
or anything else.

01:15:58.240 --> 01:16:07.360
So we run into these huge, huge privacy issues, and that, fellow listeners, is, I think, the

01:16:07.360 --> 01:16:10.400
biggest issue that we're going to have with Gmail.

01:16:10.820 --> 01:16:16.300
Now, I have a one-word answer for you that may solve this, but just as easily as Google

01:16:16.300 --> 01:16:21.820
can disallow certain types of email attachments, they could circumvent this solution.

01:16:21.820 --> 01:16:23.300
And that word is crypto.

01:16:24.440 --> 01:16:24.480
Right.

01:16:24.780 --> 01:16:30.860
If I encrypt my messages, and as I'm sending them to Stank, Stank receives them.

01:16:30.960 --> 01:16:37.260
We could do PKI, public key infrastructure, like with PGP or GPG, or we could do, like I

01:16:37.260 --> 01:16:42.020
mentioned earlier, these email certificates, the X509 certificates, like from Thought or somebody

01:16:42.020 --> 01:16:42.340
else.

01:16:44.080 --> 01:16:45.740
And now they're encrypted.

01:16:45.740 --> 01:16:49.660
And Google, Gmail, cannot read that.

01:16:50.840 --> 01:16:58.320
But just as easily as they could disallow something that is an email attachment, they

01:16:58.320 --> 01:17:02.240
could disallow things that don't look like plain ASCII.

01:17:02.660 --> 01:17:07.320
Well, so giveth Google, so shall Google taketh away.

01:17:07.720 --> 01:17:08.100
Exactly.

01:17:08.100 --> 01:17:12.020
And I think we're going to have to go on that, because we're way long.

01:17:12.720 --> 01:17:13.900
Huge issues, folks.

01:17:14.040 --> 01:17:16.180
Again, tons of resources checking it out.

01:17:17.060 --> 01:17:18.200
I like that Google Watch.

01:17:18.280 --> 01:17:20.600
Again, they have that anonymous proxy you can use as well.

01:17:20.940 --> 01:17:22.020
Links out there about Gmail.

01:17:23.200 --> 01:17:24.340
Please check it out.

01:17:24.440 --> 01:17:25.380
Read it on your own.

01:17:25.540 --> 01:17:28.120
We have lots of other stuff to talk about Google, don't we, Stank?

01:17:28.260 --> 01:17:28.600
Yeah.

01:17:28.680 --> 01:17:30.800
And how do you feel about a part two next week?

01:17:31.180 --> 01:17:32.280
Yeah, we can do that.

01:17:32.300 --> 01:17:33.220
We can finish up this thought.

01:17:33.220 --> 01:17:38.720
So anyone out there, if you have any thoughts about Google or Gmail, what's the address

01:17:38.720 --> 01:17:39.700
they have to send it to, Stank?

01:17:39.780 --> 01:17:43.740
Send it to radio at binrev.com, and we are going to continue this next week.

01:17:43.800 --> 01:17:54.600
If you're available, go to Gmail site, gmail.google.com, and read the rules and the privacy aspects

01:17:54.600 --> 01:17:55.420
and stuff like that.

01:17:55.500 --> 01:17:58.920
That's your assignment for next episode, because we're going to talk more in depth about that.

01:17:59.020 --> 01:18:00.660
I knew we'd run long.

01:18:00.660 --> 01:18:05.360
Plus, we have a couple other Google topics, so this is definitely going to be a Google

01:18:05.360 --> 01:18:07.420
part two next week.

01:18:08.460 --> 01:18:13.720
So come back to hear more on the Gmail as well as some other Google things.

01:18:15.080 --> 01:18:20.080
And, ah, man, we are, this was a good, every time we have you on, we have a good show.

01:18:20.360 --> 01:18:20.820
Oh, thanks, man.

01:18:20.900 --> 01:18:21.940
Every time we have you on.

01:18:21.980 --> 01:18:23.380
It's so great to have you on.

01:18:23.380 --> 01:18:30.840
Um, let's jump out all this other text I have in the show novels, and jump down to the end

01:18:30.840 --> 01:18:32.300
here, and go for some shouts.

01:18:32.380 --> 01:18:34.120
Why don't you take some shouts, because it's been a while.

01:18:34.220 --> 01:18:36.620
Why don't you give shouts out to anybody you're thinking?

01:18:37.520 --> 01:18:37.980
Oh, boy.

01:18:38.160 --> 01:18:39.980
And, um, shouts out to my mom.

01:18:40.080 --> 01:18:43.400
She's, uh, moved back down here to Arizona, moved out of the cold climate.

01:18:43.400 --> 01:18:47.480
So, uh, she's, unfortunately, she doesn't listen to Bin Rev or other types of things

01:18:47.480 --> 01:18:48.160
in that, but, uh.

01:18:48.160 --> 01:18:49.000
Well, you'll have to start her.

01:18:49.360 --> 01:18:50.380
There you go.

01:18:50.820 --> 01:18:57.240
And, um, you know, all the folks at the AZ2600 meetings and, uh, and or the, uh, the DEF CON

01:18:57.240 --> 01:18:59.040
meetings, because we kind of run it all together.

01:18:59.200 --> 01:19:00.740
So, shouts to everybody in that crew.

01:19:01.700 --> 01:19:02.100
All right.

01:19:02.120 --> 01:19:02.880
And I'm going to give shouts.

01:19:02.960 --> 01:19:06.140
I mentioned earlier to In Theory, he was helping me doing some plural scripting.

01:19:06.200 --> 01:19:10.500
So I got a crash course in that earlier this week, which was very cool, and learned a

01:19:10.500 --> 01:19:11.860
phenomenal amount from it.

01:19:11.860 --> 01:19:16.420
And I just mentioned a second ago, but I'll reiterate, radio at binrev.com.

01:19:16.540 --> 01:19:20.440
If you want to email us about Google, about any concerns you have, or any of the topics

01:19:20.440 --> 01:19:24.420
we've talked about, follow-ups on, um, even human ML or any of that kind of stuff.

01:19:24.960 --> 01:19:28.520
Um, any, any suggestions or ideas you have about it, by all means.

01:19:29.240 --> 01:19:32.640
Um, and, again, I'm going to say articles at binrev.com.

01:19:32.700 --> 01:19:38.260
If you want to send articles for their binrev 2.2, um, send them in any, any time, and we'll

01:19:38.260 --> 01:19:38.840
take a look at them.

01:19:38.840 --> 01:19:41.440
Check out PAC-TV episode one.

01:19:41.860 --> 01:19:44.480
Hack, episode one, April 15th.

01:19:44.480 --> 01:19:48.180
And we'll put up information on the hacktv.binrev.com site.

01:19:48.820 --> 01:19:50.440
Um, we'll probably put up a BitTorrent.

01:19:50.600 --> 01:19:52.700
Um, maybe have some direct downloads and some mirrors.

01:19:52.820 --> 01:19:54.000
It's going to be pretty big.

01:19:54.060 --> 01:19:57.600
It looks like somewhere around 200 megs in DivX formats.

01:19:57.680 --> 01:19:59.980
Looks like we're going to try to go the most universal we can.

01:19:59.980 --> 01:20:03.040
So, um, look for that on the 15th.

01:20:03.180 --> 01:20:05.520
And don't forget to get your taxes out at the same time.

01:20:05.600 --> 01:20:06.740
Uncle Sam wants his cut.

01:20:07.900 --> 01:20:11.980
And we're going to close out with another track from Brad Sucks called

01:20:11.980 --> 01:20:15.020
Understand, Understood by Your Dad, excuse me.

01:20:16.160 --> 01:20:17.700
And that's going to do it.

01:20:17.740 --> 01:20:19.940
So, again, Rax, thank you very much for being on the show.

01:20:20.060 --> 01:20:22.440
And we'll try to do it again next week.

01:20:22.540 --> 01:20:23.280
Same hack time.

01:20:23.820 --> 01:20:24.540
Same hack channel.

01:20:24.540 --> 01:20:54.520
Same hack channel.

01:20:54.540 --> 01:21:24.520
Same hack channel.

01:21:24.540 --> 01:21:30.800
But I don't, you know, a place that I will go to be

01:21:30.800 --> 01:21:35.380
Understood by your name, yeah

01:21:35.380 --> 01:21:40.820
You can hear my face with a ball and a chain

01:21:40.820 --> 01:21:50.740
I can show them the blood of fucking straight to my brain

01:21:50.740 --> 01:22:18.980
You can hear my face with a ball and a chain

01:22:18.980 --> 01:22:29.980
I can show them the blood of fucking straight to my brain

01:22:29.980 --> 01:22:37.980
You know, you know, a place that I will go to be

01:22:37.980 --> 01:22:40.980
Anyone that you wish would

01:22:40.980 --> 01:22:46.980
I don't, you know, a place that I will go to be

01:22:46.980 --> 01:22:51.980
Understood by your name, yeah