This is dedicated to all the hackers and the crackers, to the hackers and the crackers.
I see in binary, I speak source code, step on my toes, I'll post a million jpegs of you
in a fag pose, in your digital stance, getting firewalls hoes, cause I'm riding the net in
my six foes, I was a dick with my 56, now with my cable I'm able to get that stable,
on the out, my name is Ace and I'm a Leo, on the digital highway, my name is Neo and
I'm a hero, in a flash I'll screw you on burning dreamcast, you need some ISO, let me through
my hard drive rifle, our exchange you could never stifle, in a digital hug, you just caught
the love bug, I bootlegged your CD, I caused the fight between Un and Jay-Z, cause CG, it's
all gonna be free, whether we take it by force or we take it nicely, you feel that rattle
in your bones, when I tell you we just hacked out Jones, and NASDAQ leaves you flat on your
back, cause I am he who loves to hack and crack, cause I am he who loves to hack and crack.
This is dedicated to the hackers and the crackers, serial phones, source codes, ISO, RAM, SIS,
this is dedicated to the hackers and the crackers.
Hello and welcome to Binary Revolution Radio, episode 109, with today's date, August 16th,
2005. I'm Black Ratchet, and there's no Strom this week, he sort of went missing, he's been
arrested by feds, and currently down in Guantanamo Bay or something. So, you know, not theory was
very kind, and decided to help us out tonight.
Yeah, and I'm through with all my Verizon problems, so now this can finally be a show about computers.
We don't need to talk anything about phones tonight.
But I thought this was a freaking show.
Oh.
It is?
Oh, I don't know.
Oh, well, I don't know.
No, no, no. Tonight is an all-computer episode.
Apparently, Strom and I are...
Why don't you want to talk about fishing? We can talk about fishing or something.
Fishing would be fun.
Oh, time of fishing, the P-H or the F.
Oh. Yeah, maybe we should not talk about that.
I don't know. How to own Korea or something.
Actually, no. How to own the United States from Korea.
Yeah, that's more like it.
No. Anyway, this is an all-computer episode tonight.
We're going to try to steer away from it.
Pick a nice, juicy, meaty computer subject for all you people out there
complaining that Strom and I are a little too phone-friendly
or we're turning this into Freak Factor
or all your other complaints, so sit down and step away.
Oh, I really hope you're not turning it into Freak Factor, dude.
No. Actually, you know, we actually have an all-section
where we're just going to call up Walmart and try to get on their PA system.
Oh, that would be so neat.
Oh, man. I hear if you hit, like, pound nine, you'll get there.
Want to try it?
Actually, Freak Factor may make a resurgence.
I might have some time freeing up
as I move Freak Factor to a new mystery day.
Yeah, actually, it seems to be dying out.
Yeah, you know, because nobody's ever around to host it
and that's mostly my fault because the show was, like, my idea
and Snag's off doing his own thing.
So if I'm not there to run it, you know, it kind of goes nowhere very quickly,
as you can tell if you've listened to any of them.
Yeah, I got an IM from Cypher X on about 11.30 last Saturday.
He's like, where are you?
And I was, you know, driving home.
And I said, oh, I'm in the car. I'm on my sidekick.
Oh, my God, no one's there to run Freak Factor.
We're not streaming.
And I was like, oh, okay.
So I had to run home and bridge the conferences
because someone forgot to do it.
I wonder who that could be.
Oh, no, that's me.
I didn't forget to do it.
I just didn't want to.
So, you know, what can I say about that?
The amount of love that non-theory has for Freak Factor.
No, no, that's not true.
The thing about it was I was at a wedding
and I was very drunk by that point.
So there was no way I could possibly get onto my phone
and use Putty to get in there and bridge the conferences.
I've got to say that would be pretty elite.
You got Putty running on your phone?
Oh, yeah.
The phones that are not pieces of crap like the sidekick,
they run Putty.
What kind of episode would this be
without not theory talking about the sidekick?
Oh, yeah.
We're going toward phones.
So let's go segue to the next topic.
I have a bit of an announcement.
Rant Radio is going to start pulling our feed from our podcast,
and that's how it's going to grab our episodes.
So I think this is fine and dandy.
I only have to upload one episode now.
I used to have to make two.
I'd send one over to DDP Hack Radio.
Then I'd have to log into Rant Radio
and upload the second episode.
It'd be two settings,
two bits and pieces I have to set,
and two MP3s I have to export.
So now it's easy.
You only have to do one episode, pull it off BINREV.
However, I realized that we update our podcast
after the episode airs.
Actually, Stank actually pointed this out to me,
so it wasn't me.
So this is a bit of a dilemma.
Either I need to update the podcast early,
or Rant Radio is going to be a week behind
of the current episode.
So after much debate,
I decided to let Rant Radio be a week behind.
And we update our podcast early.
No one's going to listen to the live streaming broadcast
we do at 9.30 every Tuesday night.
So no one will want to listen to it.
What's the point of doing it?
So basically what's going to happen is
Rant Radio is now going to be a week behind
the actual live episode.
And right now the only place to get your piping hot,
steaming, fresh out of the oven BINREV radio
is going to be on the DDP hack radio stream
at radio.BINREV.com.
9.30 every Tuesday night.
Be there, be square.
All that other jazz.
Isn't it exciting?
Yeah, I think that is true or right.
Well, you know, Rant Radio does have a large user base,
and it's good over there.
And it'd be cool to give them the live episode also.
I still haven't.
I might contact them and say,
oh, geez, we don't do this until after our episode's aired,
so you're going to be a week behind
and see what they say.
But, you know, hey, DDP hack radio,
that's where it's at.
BINREV.com.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm not saying anything bad about Rant Radio.
I think Rant Radio is awesome.
But, you know, it's our show,
and it's our station,
so it should be there first.
Yeah.
And plus, you know,
if we start flooding it with listeners,
listeners, you know,
Nick84 will just start freaking out.
That'll be fun to watch.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, my God, the stream has 50 people.
Yeah, is the limit beyond 50 now?
Because I'm not really sure that it is.
I forget.
I think it's only at 50.
I'm not sure.
I don't know.
I don't understand telling me that he thought he changed it, but...
I thought he bumped it up to 50.
I don't know.
We'll find out.
Everyone will be, you know,
clamoring for their live DDP hack radio.
Actually, this is a good thing,
because hopefully now,
the big thing in my eyes
to get us from doing live episodes
is trying to reconfigure ourselves
to work with Radio's live stream.
So hopefully now,
it should be rather simple
to flip the switch
and instantly do a live episode
for Binary Revolution Radio.
Has Tank ever done a live episode?
No, I don't think so.
I don't think we've had, like,
the technical prowess
to get that pulled off with...
Well, we don't have technical prowess either,
but we're going to try it anyway.
Good luck.
Yeah, and apparently,
I mean, if you listen to Freak Radio,
you know nobody knew technical prowess
and that kind of crap.
Well, if I did it,
there you go.
Yeah.
What magazine inscription
did you get that phone from?
You're getting all GSM-y on me.
Oh, you know,
it's just the area that I live.
People here are super rich,
and I don't like having cell sites
anywhere near their house.
They don't want their babies
to have five arms and three legs.
Yeah.
Yeah, my town's not so bad,
but a couple of towns over,
they have, like,
a town ordinance
against having cell sites
in the town.
Oh, yeah,
we have a couple of those
in Massachusetts.
Oh, I mean,
how pompous can you get?
Yeah, give me a phone break.
And if you ever drive near them,
your cell phone drops to nothing.
It's disgusting.
I actually know people
who drive routinely
through this same town,
and they have to have
two cell phones,
because one works
in the middle of the town,
one works in the edge
of the town.
That's it.
So,
we're back talking
about phones again.
So,
how do we talk about that?
Well, you know,
cell phone,
that's up to radio engineering.
That's, you know,
whatever.
We can pass that off.
I'm going to send
a shout-out to Chris.
He sent me
the proper pronouncement
of Ubuntu Linux.
That would be
Ubuntu.
So,
thanks, Chris.
Thanks a lot.
And last week,
I mentioned a free IDE
that was for C++
and on Windows.
It's called
Dev C++.
It's a free speech,
as in, you know,
GPL,
a new public license.
You can download the source
and re-contract it
for your own nefarious needs.
It's a free IDE
for C++.
And sadly,
right now,
it's not fully compatible
with Visual Studio.
But I remember playing it
before I got a copy
of Visual Studio for work.
And, you know,
most of the stuff
that you come across,
a couple of quick fixes
and maybe change
some library names
and some function calls.
It's pretty easy.
You can get it down to it.
It's not that hard.
It's available
at www.bloodshed.net.
B-L-O-O-D-S-H-E-D.
Bloodshed.
It's not very violent.
It's a nice,
easy-to-use C++ IDE.
So,
don't let the domain name
freak you out.
Yeah,
it doesn't sound very friendly.
Yes, yes.
Shall we go into the email?
Sure.
Okay, for our first email tonight.
Dear Black Ratchet and Strom,
or Dear Black Ratchet and Not Theory,
I guess, you know.
All right.
I've just listened to your intro
into hacking episode
and would like to say a few things.
First things first,
silenceisdefeat.org
is not a Linux shell account.
It is an open BSD account,
which,
while BSD is similar to Linux,
it is not the same thing.
Speaking of BSD,
it's another great open-source
Unix-like operating system
that, in my opinion,
is just as good
to start hacking on as Linux.
Though net and open BSD
are a bit more advanced
for a Unix novice
and get up and running,
free BSD is great
for those who are new to Unix.
You also did not really
touch on programming.
You touched a tiny bit
on how to be a script kitty,
but not really explain
just using other people's exploits
as kind of anti-hackerish.
And as breaking into computers
is your thing,
it's more about figuring out
what's wrong with the system
and how to exploit it
than using others
to gain access.
And that's from Steve-O.
Oops.
My bad.
You know,
I'm sure there's more
than a few people out there
that kind of got ticked off
that didn't mention BSD.
And plus,
nothing really pisses off
a BSD person
to associate them with Linux.
I'm kidding.
Well, sort of.
I didn't touch on BSDs,
so I'll quickly talk
about them here.
BSDs are much more
Unix-y than Linux.
They are real,
honest-to-goodness Unix.
They were forked
from the AT&T BSD distribution.
Are you, like,
cleaning your room
or something?
No, I'm just
shuffling around
so it gets better.
Oh, look at that.
He's just shuffling around.
He's, like,
climbing on the roof.
Goodness,
he's, like,
tearing his house down
or installing
an antenna or something.
Yeah, I've got to
rip out this wall
to be able to
get a good reception here.
Yes.
This old house
was not dairy.
School of time.
BSDs are all forked
from the original
AT&T BSD Unix code.
When I first
cut my,
I find that
they're a lot
less newbie-friendly.
I cut my teeth
after,
on FreeBSD
after, you know,
about two years,
two, three years
with Linux,
and it was a very
interesting experience.
It's not what I was used to.
It's,
there's a,
they're a lot more powerful
and,
but they have a lot
less hand-holding.
I still kind of feel
that way.
I haven't used FreeBSD
in a while.
I've moved over
to OpenBSD.
And,
I guess you could say
that I,
I,
I'm a bit more
versed with them,
so I can't really say
how newbie-friendly
they are anymore.
Anyway,
I'm talking about
FreeBSD,
OpenBSD,
and FBSD,
and you're all going,
what?
So,
let's go over that.
There's three major
BSD forks out there.
OpenBSD,
who's,
basically,
its main purpose
is to be a very,
very secure distribution.
I believe they've
gone five years
and they've only had
one root compromised
in the default
themselves.
Not there,
do you use OpenBSD
at all?
You know,
I don't.
I actually started
on FreeBSD
a long time ago,
but then
just switched to Linux
for the hell of it
and haven't looked back,
not because BSD
was bad,
but,
I don't know.
For Linux,
for me,
for some reason,
it was just more fun,
but I haven't touched it
in a long time,
so I can't really attest
to very much.
Other than that,
I think you're right.
In five years,
they've had one
local root compromised.
I thought it was
remote.
I thought it was
the SSH problem.
I don't know.
Was it?
They proudly display it.
Go to their website.
It's openbsd.org.
Let's see.
What else do we have?
OpenBSD.
There's NetBSD,
whose purpose is,
basically,
they want to port
to everything
under the sun.
Your toaster,
your washing machine,
your Mac,
SE.
They are really
like porting nuts
over there.
I've seen,
basically,
with NetBSD,
all the palm tops
you see that are
just coming out,
NetBSD people
are instantaneously
working on them,
and you usually see
NetBSD on them
before Linux,
because these are
what these people do.
Finally,
there's FreeBSD,
and basically,
their main purpose
is to design
a nice,
stable Intel
x86 Unix,
and that's what
they do,
and they're
pretty good at it.
They always
pride themselves
with being,
you know,
very stable,
very slow-moving,
you know,
don't want to have
the cutting-edge
hardware,
because,
you know,
they don't want
to make 15 revisions
to a kernel
in a week.
They want to do
nice,
slow,
deliberate stuff.
There's patches
out there to bring
it up to date
with more hardware,
but they're more
geared toward,
you know,
running a server,
not having a change,
basically setting up
a kernel,
and only updating
it if there's
something majorly
bad with it.
BSD is fun.
I like OpenBSD
for my internet-facing
systems.
I use it at work
a few times.
However,
I still follow
by the thing,
if you want
to take the plunge,
don't expect
to have your handheld.
It's scary
for the first time.
I did it.
You know,
Steve-O,
as you're for the programming,
I did touch on programming,
just not a lot,
and I don't believe
running exploits
coded by other people
instantly turns you
into a script kid,
either.
When I run an exploit,
I understand how it works,
I know what it's doing,
however,
I fully admit
that I can't code
one for shit.
I do not know shellcode.
I have a copy
of the shellcoders
handbook,
and running,
what is it,
running shellcode
for fun and profit,
it was something
like a frack or something,
and basically,
they're shitting
on my shelf
just collecting dust,
because I haven't had
time to read them yet.
Yeah,
I was actually going
to recommend
the shellcoders handbook
if you want to learn
how to write shellcode,
and beyond that,
if you want to learn
how a lot of this stuff
hangs together
and why exploits work
and stuff like that,
it's a pretty good book.
I have it,
I've only read some of it
because I've been really busy,
but the parts of it
that I read
were just outstanding.
Yeah,
and essentially,
if you want to write shellcode,
be an expert at assembly.
Assembly is what shellcode
is all based out on.
It's as simple as that,
and I mean,
I'm not as well-versed assembly
as I thought I did
after I started reading
shellcoders.
I just basically,
I picked it up,
I started reading it,
and that's where it went.
I mean,
I was like,
oh God,
this is really complex.
I don't know all this stuff.
I have to read
my assembly handbook again,
and that's where I stopped.
So anyway,
I can look at a box.
I can figure out
if holes exist in it.
I can exploit them
to my advantage.
However,
I can't code up bugs
that I might find
in people's code.
I think it's partially that,
you know,
I never had really someone
I can learn from,
and partially that
I've never had someone,
I never really had a reason
to learn it.
I don't,
I'm not into security auditing.
I don't have that much
experience with it,
and I've never really had
a reason to learn to it.
You know,
however,
I can use exploits
and get successfully
in a machine.
I can use what
the misconfigured stuff is.
I know,
I used to be a virtual
encyclopedia on exploits
with certain problems
and programs.
My university used to run
a capture-to-fly contest.
All four times
they ran it
that I participated in,
my team either placed
or won.
I think we won
the last two times.
Yeah,
that sounds about right.
Nice.
Yeah,
yeah,
I was pretty elite.
What can I say?
We always got our,
we had our winnings
in beer as always.
They gave us a nice
gift certificate
over to UNO's,
which was down the street.
Headed on over
and generally
just got completely tanked.
Hmm,
not bad.
And they didn't arrest you
or anything for this?
It was like a really
fully sanctioned contest?
Oh yeah,
it was a fully sanctioned contest.
Basically what they did
is they gave us
this little sandbox
on 192.168,
and you gave us,
you got an account
on a outward-facing machine
that basically connected you
to your own box
and you had 24 hours
to cure it
and 48 hours
to break into everyone else.
Hmm.
Sounds pretty cool.
Yeah,
it was lots of fun.
I really do miss it
and as much as I want
to try to CTF
at, you know,
DEF CON
and all that stuff,
I know that I'm going
to get blown out of the water.
So I just enjoy
sitting there
and looking out
and saying,
yeah,
I could do that maybe
and realize back in my mind,
no you can't.
What are you,
nuts?
Yeah,
I was actually just going
to ask you about
the capture of the flag
if you had checked out.
No,
I mean,
I know you said
you didn't get involved
in it,
but I didn't even
get a chance
to look at it.
As a matter of fact,
I didn't even see
the vendor area
at DEF CON
the entire time
I was there.
Really?
You didn't hit
the vendor area?
I stopped by once
and then I saw
that they didn't have
any shirts in my size
because I went there
far too late
and at which point
I just said,
screw this.
I went to the
Unix Air Plus guys
and they had a couple
of fun things
that I wanted
to get my hands on
but I decided
that carrying
a bunch of switches
in my bag
would probably
not do well
with TSA.
Yeah,
you know,
I actually did
the same thing
with my backpack.
I had my laptop
and I had phones
and cables
and all kinds of stuff
and I can't imagine
that it looked like
anything other than
a bomb,
you know,
but every time
I went through
they never asked
me to open up
the bag.
The only time
I've ever been
searched is when
I had nothing
in my bag.
Wow,
that's weird.
Actually,
I was at
McCarron International
Airport,
which is the main
airport in Las Vegas
and I was sitting
there and my
friend,
he picked up
a souvenir mug
from one of his
friends and he
got flagged and I'm
sitting there in
the little waiting
area for,
you know,
wait for your
friend.
It's like I'm
out of the security
checkpoint and I look
over my shoulder
and over there
is a DEFCON goon
being inspected
and he had
like,
you know,
three laptops all
in his carry-on bag
and they had them
all open there
looking at him
and swabbing it
and I was just
going,
oops,
I really wanted
to take a photo
of it but I
decided against that.
TSA might not
like that.
So,
let's see,
next email.
Hey Black Ratchet
and Strom Carlson
and Random
Co-host,
I found that
very amusing
that you started
talking about
running caseless
computers.
My roommate and
I scrapped
enough spare parts
to our two
machines to make
another computer
and he suggested
we mount it
on the wall.
This was about
15 weeks ago.
He bought some
little mounting
hooks at a
supply store and
stuck the computer
on the wall
at our apartment.
I installed
Fedora Code 3
on it,
I'm sorry,
Fedora Core 3
and we used it
for internet
browsing and
multimedia.
In the last
month he found
an iMac G3
and bought it
home and he
stole the hard
drive out of
our living room
wall box to
try to get
the iMac working.
But once we
found the iMac
was broken,
we gutted it
but saved its
pretty shell.
Our apartment
manager came to
inspect the place
so we had to
take the wall
computer completely
down.
Unfortunately,
hmm,
that was a bad
period.
But I had to
do it again.
I hoped to do
it again.
It was a lot of
fun.
Thanks for reading.
Hopefully this
story was interesting.
I've listened to
BinRev Radio
for several months
now and I've
gone through
all the episodes
I really enjoy
you guys keep
it up.
Thanks again.
Control shift.
Great story,
control shift.
I love wall
mounted computers.
Although I'm
really curious how
you interfaced with
the computer when
it was on the
wall.
I mean,
you can't
really mount
a monitor to
your wall,
can you?
Anyway,
one of my
friends did it.
They did all
stuff over the
network so they
didn't have to
worry about that.
However,
you really have
it configured in
some way that
lets you use the
computer to some
part.
I'm curious as
to whether or not
you just mounted
it on a table
or did something
a little more
interesting.
This actually
reminded me of a
story of a guy who
built a computer
into his wall.
You can read this
really neat hack at
tinyurl.com
slash 84
echo x-ray
oscar.
Wow, I had
trouble remembering
what he was.
Very nice hack.
Looks amazingly
well done.
It's just,
it's really cool.
Have you ever
seen that?
Yeah, a lot of
these pictures are
actually very nice.
I didn't, I haven't
seen this before but
it looks pretty cool.
Is it all touch
screen or what's
Yeah, it's all
touch screen.
It's really cool.
Huh.
Interesting.
Yeah.
So go check that
out.
He has the
Trudus pictures and
he has it all
well designed.
Essentially it's a
dumb terminal that
runs X and he
just used it for
home automation.
Guy's pretty
elite.
Let's see, our
next email is from
VoltageX.
Hey guys, just
listening to 107.
Friends and
teachers have sent
multiple iPods back
after they've died.
Come into the pack
missing and parts
miss it.
They come back but
the parts missing,
et cetera.
Are the number of
faulty iPods around
due to the sheer
number of them or
is this the Apple
hard mark?
At school, we've
had multiple faulty
Apple laptops and
computers sent back.
Because of this, I
started using such
terms as crap and
tosh, Mac and
trash, laptop on a
stick, laptop school.
He puts in
parentheses the
iMac G5, which is
I find an amusing
term.
Anyway, the show's
improving.
Keep it up.
VoltageX.
Well, now that I
hear this and I
actually talked
around to a couple
of my friends,
I'm possibly
Strom was right.
Besides my
recently discovered
battery trouble, I've
yet to have my
iPod break.
However, Strom
went out and got
two of them and
I called a couple
of friends who've
had one break.
All of them within
the past couple of
months.
It's very interesting.
Yeah, I actually
have a friend even
who has an older
one.
Somehow, every single
Apple thing he has
just keeps breaking
and breaking.
I don't know what
it is.
Yeah, I don't
know.
I have a nice
iMac G3 that has
been working fine
forever.
Whatever.
I don't know.
It's not an iMac.
It's a blue and
white G3.
Pardon me.
At least iMacs.
VoltageX, as for
your terms, I've been
using those since I
was about 13 and
that's been quite a
while for most of
you out there.
However, like I
said, I do like
laptops.
Cool.
That's pretty
amusing.
I have a couple of
people who are
doing interesting
mods with their
iBooks and it
really does start
to look like a
laptop icicle.
Whatever.
The reason why I
posted this is we're
going to have a
homework assignment.
How many of you
have Apple products
that have failed
miserably?
And to counterpoint,
how many of you
had rock solid
Apple products?
Email us at
radio at
binrev.com.
Let's see.
We have one more
email tonight.
I found your
radio service to
this website, which
is a podcast
directory.com.
He attached the
email.
You guys rock.
Basically, I'm a
noob without a
pseudoname.
I thought it would
be very cool if I
could get named by
you guys.
I realize this might
be a strange
request, but I'm
going on the
premise of only
stupid questions is
one that I'd ask.
Keep us great work.
P.S.
I also subscribe to
Boston, sorry,
2600.
Wow, I'm kind of
used to constantly
saying Boston
penny 2600.
Wow.
Do you think he
trusts us?
Well, I see
written down here
what you think you
should name him.
Yeah, you know, I
was actually kind of
rattling this around
in my head, you
know, Thrax,
Wraith.
I'm personally
partial to Black
Ratchet Jr.
Oh, yeah, that is
just precious.
Yeah, yeah.
Do you want to
have a not-theory
Jr. over there?
No, I don't think.
Maybe we could just
call him Thury, and
like, he and I
could be like some
type of arch-nemesis
thing going on.
You never know.
Picking a handle
is something, it's
not pseudoname, it's
a, I guess you could
call it a pseudonym,
I guess.
You know, I always
called it my online
alter ego for people
who know me in real
life.
So, picking a
handle is something
you should really do
on your own.
I think that Strom
has a very cool
handle, because you
can give it out as a
real name.
Lots of people think
that Strom Carlson
is a real name.
It isn't.
The way I picked
my name is basically
it was blackratchet.org,
it was, or org, or
whatever you want to
call it.
It was the only
domain name available
that did not sound
lame and sounded
cool.
So, how did you pick
your name, not
Thury?
It is a really,
really long story.
But basically, the
short version of the
story is, when I was
in college, a lot of
professors, I would
talk to them about
different things I
wanted to do, and I
always ask them what
they thought about it,
because I looked up to
them, obviously.
And they'd always say,
well, in theory you
could do it, but this,
this, this, this, this.
In theory, and all
these guys, all they
would ever talk about
is theoretically you
could do something.
But it seemed like,
aside from writing
papers about what they
could do theoretically,
these guys actually did
it.
So, I essentially
just told everybody,
like, I want to do
things in practice, not
theory.
So, that's where it
came from.
That's pretty
interesting.
Stank always thought
that, like, I picked
my name by getting
beaten by a black
ratchet one day or
something, or something
amusing or something.
But no, no, very
lame.
I originally was just
going to have something
called Black Ratchet
Labs to pack all my,
you know, more gray
stuff in real life.
And it's just sort of
descended into a giant
pseudonym for me, or
handle, or whatever you
want to say it.
Well, it works.
Oh, so, that's it for
the emails tonight.
We're going to go into
show and tell.
Do you have any fun
hacking, personal hacking
stories?
Um, let me think.
I really thought that I
did.
I don't know why I'm
choking at the last
second, though.
Um, I don't know, I
can't really think of
anything exciting.
I had something that I
was going to release
before DEF CON, and
then I was going to
release at DEF CON, and
now I'm going to
release, obviously, after
DEF CON, because it
still hasn't come out
yet.
But, um, I'm not going
to spill the beans on
it just yet.
Can you, you know, give
us a hint here?
Um, it has something
to do with making the
Bell's Mind information
much more detailed.
Ooh, sounds
interesting.
That's about it.
Um, but, I, uh, I
can say that I
definitely am going to
redo the interface to
Bell's Mind.
I've been planning to
do it for a while, but,
um, I guess,
unfortunately in one
sense, but fortunately
in, like, a real-life
sense, I have a lot of
work that keeps getting
thrown at me, so I
don't have time to do
anything anymore.
Um, normally I have a
lot of work, but, uh,
now it's, like, really,
really piling up, so.
Well, I, I, I do
enjoy the very raw HTML
look of Bell's Mind
as of now.
So, it looks pretty
weird.
Well, I don't, it's not
going to, it's not going to
change too much.
I'm not going to have,
like, you know, punch the
monkey, or, or slap the
ferret, or whatever the
whole, like, flash ads are
called, but it'll still look
somewhat the same, but it'll
just be, you know, kind of
more functional.
There'll be a lot of search
functions that people have
been asking me for, um, and
if you've been asking me for
it, I've been listening.
Maybe I haven't been
replying to, uh, email, but
I've definitely been taking
notes on what people really
want, and, um, I'm
implementing a bunch of
them.
Oh, we are very excited.
Because I, because I am a
Bell's Mind chunky, I will
admit.
I, I constantly come there.
Nice.
Uh, yeah, let's, let's hope
it actually comes together,
though.
Oh.
Well, we'll, we'll, we'll,
we'll be waiting with
bated breath.
We'll probably get it
sometime around 2007.
You're supposed to say no,
but I, I guess not.
I, I said ouch.
That's about it.
I, I can't, I can't really
say no.
I could just say ouch.
It'll, it'll come out when
it comes out.
It'll, it'll come out before
Windows, whatever it is.
Or something.
Um, as for me.
Hopefully.
Gotta, gotta love that.
As for me, I, I really
haven't had any, many, much
projects either.
I've been doing a lot of
work-related stuff lately.
Uh, I, I did a massive
ticking apart my room one
weekend, and I was getting
ready for the MIT flea
just coming up.
I'm going to sell some of
my worldly possessions
because they, I no longer
use them, and they're just
taking up space.
So, that, that's about it
for me.
I haven't been doing much
else.
I'm doing work stuff, but
I'm not going to really talk
about that on air because
I don't think work would
like that.
So, okay.
We're, we're going to move
into our juicy, meaty, you
know, fresh out of the oven
computer subject tonight,
and it's all about Pearl.
Gotta love Pearl.
Ah, I definitely love
Pearl.
Pearl is just the ultimate.
It does everything.
Yeah.
Even when you're not sure
how, how to do it, it just
kind of works somehow.
Yeah, it's, it's all
mystical.
It's like, you know, you,
if you pull apart the
binary, you'll start seeing
like, you know, goat's
guts in the inside and evil
stuff.
You know, okay, so, it's,
it's Pearl.
Pearl stands for practical
extraction and report
language.
It's, so it's, what's the
other term for it?
Practical eclectic rubbish
something?
No, I don't know.
Something like that.
Whatever.
Yeah.
I love Pearl.
Apparently not.
Theory loves Pearl as much
as I do.
Pearl is the Swiss Army
chainsaw of data processing.
You know, given enough time,
effort, and skill, you can,
you can really do anything
with it.
I've made Pearl do things
that no programming languages
should be able to do.
It's, it's, it's scary.
It really is.
You can start building
interfaces to take, you
know, data out of one
portion and pop it into
a completely different
format for Lord knows
what.
Okay.
Well, rather than like,
you know, I can start
babbling with the wonders
of Pearl, but let's start
with the basics, you
know.
Pearl was developed by
Larry Wall.
He developed Pearl
originally as a data
reduction language,
which would something be a
language that is capable of
consuming a lot of data
in a quick and efficient
manner and, you know,
do some various mumbo
jumbo on it and then
spitting out some other
place.
Like I said, Pearl is for
practical extraction
report language.
Pearl is the perfect tool
for system administrators,
and that really isn't
a lie.
It's wonderful.
You can do all kinds of
crazy stuff with it.
It's essentially, it's
shell scripting on steroids.
It, you know, easy
manipulation of files.
You want to go, new,
report about your, your
syslog, just, you know,
make a nice little Pearl
script for it, pop it
in, pull it, and you'll
get this wonderful
properly formatted
report out, basically
into any format you
want.
HTML, XML, SGML, you
know, pretty fine, raw
text, whatever you want
to put it in.
Pearl will do that.
Like a document format?
Can you really do that?
Yeah.
Maybe if they move to
XML, but I don't think
you can actually create a
doc with Pearl, can you?
You know, honestly, I
wouldn't be surprised.
You can, there are some
tricks to get to get
things formatted so
that they kind of look
all right in, in
Microsoft Word.
I had to do it at one
point for somebody.
It's very basic.
You can't really do
crazy things like create
animated three-dimensional
graphs that have sound
and stuff like that, but
you can write it down.
Put, put the Star Wars
theme in your Excel
report.
Yeah, you can't, you
can't really do that.
Due to copyright reasons
as well.
Yeah.
But, yeah, you can, you
can do crazy stuff with it.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, even with
it is, you can put it in
RTF.
RTF is a standard supported
by Word.
And you can also put it
into a lot of other
standards that Word
understands or Excel
understands, but aren't
really Excel files, like
stuff like, you know,
comma-separated value
files or tab-separated
value files.
You know, Pearl loves
that stuff.
It's insanely simple to
have stuff inputted or
outputted via that.
Pearl is another thing
that's, it's really cool
for people who write
CGI bin scripts or
common gateway interface,
basically, uh, web
scripts, and you can
process web forms with
it.
It has a nice, uh, plug-in
for Apache called Mod
Pearl.
It's, it's very fast.
It's very efficient.
I'm starting kind of
shying away from that
because I'm, I'm, I've,
I've fallen in love with
PHP, but it's, I, I cut
my teeth on that for web
programming.
It, it works like a
charm.
A lot of people call it,
uh, something, let's see,
I have it in my notes
here, the glue that holds
the web together, and
I'm, I'm sure some
market droid came up
with that someplace.
It's, it, the good
thing about, for CGI
programming, it's, it's
really useful for string
manipulation, and, like,
it, it comes in handy,
Pearl comes in handy for
that all across the
board.
It's not just, it's not
just for web programming
anymore.
Um, like I said, you
know, Pearl syntax, it,
it's essentially, it's,
it's shell scripting on
steroids.
It's an interpretive
language.
You don't have to
compile it.
It, it resembles shell
programs.
It also has a bit of C.
Uh, it has a lot of
functions that are built
into, uh, aux, set, and
grep, which are Unix
command line utilities for
data processing.
It, it, it's, it's very
easy to learn.
Uh, one of the things to
always remember about
Pearl, there's, there's
always one more way, one
way, more than one way to
do it.
You know, put five people
in, probably Pearl
programmers in the same
room, tell them to write
a certain piece of code
that does a certain thing,
and you'll see, like, you
know, five different ways
of doing it.
It's, it's kind of
creepy.
Yeah, one will be an
obfuscated piece of code
that looks like a cat, and
the other one will be
nice, straightforward, you
know, commented and
everything, and people can
do insane stuff.
Yeah, it's, it's nice.
Uh, I, I took a Pearl
class one, and they, they
had, like, an assignment,
and I, I compared it to my
neighbors sometimes, and
mine looked completely
different from his, and
we both got, like, A's on
it, or check pluses,
whatever, I thought they
created it that week, but
it's, it's, it's creepy.
It really is.
Uh, I, I learned Pearl
immediately after I started
learning Linux.
I, I looked for, I, I did a
lot of data program, data
processing.
Well, technically, I still
do.
So, when I, I was
basically asked to, you
know, convert some stuff
and start looking into
ways of moving some of our
applications over to Linux,
because I was the pimply-faced
youth, and I had tons of
free time.
So, I was looking for a
simple, easy-to-learn, you
know, succinct data
processing language, and
lo and behold, I was
introduced to Pearl.
I, I fell in love with
Pearl quickly.
It's, it's a breeze to
learn, and it's infinitely
easy to mince data and
munch it about and change
it around and do whatever
you want to it.
Uh, I, I use it regularly
to change formats of, you
know, some of, we have,
like, five or six different
data standards of work, at
work, depending on where
we're getting our data from
or where we're sending it
to, and I, I have about,
you know, ten Pearl scripts
that, you know, convert it
from one format to another,
and I actually, you know,
pasted them all together
one day, and I wrote this
little command line utility
that says, you give it
two files, it determines
which one, which format
each file is in, and it
converts them immediately.
It's, it's amazing,
considering that no one's
able to ever do that
before I came there, but
we won't get into that.
Um, you know, more than,
like I said, more than
once someone complains
about, you know, someone
upstairs says, oh, we have
data in this format, and
someone wants it downstairs
with, you know, format two,
and it could be two things
that I've never heard from
before, but I can usually
have a Pearl solution
coded up in about a half
hour.
It's, it's, it's amazing
what it can do.
As long as you write it in
some type of standard format
and you want it to some
other standard format,
Pearl is there.
Pearl can handle it.
Pearl can, you know, do
whatever you want.
Pearl, Pearl, Pearl.
So, developers, developers,
developers.
Oh, man.
Were you there for any of
that fiasco at DefCon?
No.
What, what fiasco?
Well, me and, uh, Slipmode
and some other guys, we
kind of, like, bounced
around from party to party
at DefCon, and, um, I
don't remember if it was
his idea or mine, but we
just started chanting
developers, developers,
over and over and over
again in all of these
different places just to
see if we could get
these different, like,
completely separate
crowds to start chanting
at different times.
It works rather well
at a place like DefCon.
Um, but yeah.
Because everyone
understands it.
I mean, I could run
downstairs and, you
know, go outside and
start running up to a
random group of people
and saying, developers,
developers, developers,
and I'll get huddled
away by the police
because they'll think
I'm an insane person.
Yeah, but not at
DefCon.
Not at DefCon.
Anyway.
Or at Microsoft
references, apparently.
Oh, where were they?
Did I cover where we
can get Perl?
No, I don't think
I discovered where
we can get Perl.
Perl is cool because
for those of you
with access to a Linux
system, chances are
you probably already
have it.
You know, a simple way
of doing this, for
those of you who
don't know, is
basically you type in
which, which as in
W-H-I-C-H, then
space Perl, and, you
know, see if it
returns a command.
Like, it should say,
you know, user Perl
or bin Perl or user
bin Perl, user
little bin Perl.
So just, you know,
some type of command
where it's a file
somewhere in the
directory structure.
If you haven't, you're
good to go.
You are ready to take
a plunge into the
Perl pool something.
I could think of a
good way of coming
out with that.
Basically, if you
don't have it, tough
luck.
What you need to do
is see if your
package management
system has it and
install it, or if you
want, you can go to
www.perl.org.
By the way, Perl is
actually spelled
P-E-R-L for those
of you who can't,
you know, convert the
name back to the
acronym.
It would be
Perl.org, you have
it available for
download and
compiling.
I've never actually
compiled it.
It's one of those
things that I don't
like to compile
programming languages
because it can be
very messy.
So I just use
the package manager.
And it takes a
while, too.
I've done it on
Gentoo, and it
doesn't take a
ridiculous amount of
time, but you
don't have a fast
machine, you can
wait for a while.
Do you know how
big the source
distribution is?
I actually have
no idea.
I am also
unaware.
Oh, by the way,
you asked me to
check before, Open
BSD has had only
one, you are
correct, remote
root exploit in
eight years.
Eight years?
Wow.
Eight years.
Good for Theo.
I'm sorry.
A lot of people,
he gets a lot of
flack as a prima
donna, but he's
got the skills to
back that up.
I don't care what
you say.
If you have enough,
if you can talk
the talk and
walk the walk,
go right ahead.
It's just all
these people who
constantly complain
and they can't
do anything about
it.
Also, one of the
fun things, for
those of you with
Windows, you can
run Perl.
It's a little bit
more tricky.
However, there's a
distribution for
Perl for Windows.
It's done by a
company called
ActiveState.
It's ActiveState.com.
Basically, the links
there are horrible
and I really didn't
feel like tiny URL-ing
it, so click away.
You'll see it right
there.
It's ActivePerl
5.8 something or
other.
Basically, what they
do is they take the
Perl source distribution
and port it over to
Windows.
It runs fine.
It's a simple way to
install it.
It's an MSI file,
download it, double
click it, and you're
set to go.
It works fairly
consistently as the
Linux version or the
other Unix version.
It doesn't have to
necessarily be Linux,
by the way.
It's any Unix.
FreeBSD, OpenBSD,
NetBSD, probably
all have it.
I think it even
works on VMS, which
two people run still,
but anyway.
The problem with the
Linux version is,
I'm sorry, the
problem with the
Windows version is
that there's some
idiosyncrasies between
Windows and Perl.
I'm sorry, with
Windows and Linux.
They're not always the
same, and I'll go
into some of the
differences later,
one of the major
ones that I hate.
So, okay, you have
it installed, you're
ready to go, let's go
find a tutorial.
An excellent tutorial
that I like, that I
learned on, but it's
still very, it still
all works, it's called
Robert's Pearl
Tutorial, and it's
tinyurl.com slash
6 Sierra November
5 Lima.
This is what I
learned on, however,
it hasn't been
updated, I think, by
the time I saw it,
it's been updated the
last time it was
updated.
As in, you know, I
think it was updated
April 21st, 2005.
So, I'm sorry, April
21st, 1999, and here
it is 2005, about six
years later.
Yeah.
So, but anyway, it
hasn't changed that
much, so it's not
going to be a major
thing.
Yeah, the basics are
all the same.
Yeah, the basics are all
the same.
You might, I think it
was probably, it's still
the major distribution,
everything right now is
running on Perl 5, they're
coming up with Perl 6,
quote, real soon now,
unquote, but we won't
get into that.
And, you know, it's still
the major division, all the
syntax still there,
everything works, all the
basics are, you know,
haven't changed at all.
But, it, it, everything
works fine.
Another book that I
found was Pick Up Perl,
Pick Up Perl, and it's
very, it's an e-book, it's
all in a tar-gz format, but
it's pretty good.
I was sort of thumbing
through it at work because
our internet decided to
crash today, and it's
tinyurl.com slash 99hon.
They're both, like I said,
both very straightforward
on Perl, it's, and they're
really easy to follow, and
once you get the basics
down, it's, it all built on
top of itself, so, I mean,
like I said, Perl is a
breeze to learn.
All of the limits you see
in C, you see in C++, Perl
just sort of throws them
out the window, and it's,
it's fine.
So, one of the best
features I found about Perl
is that it has something
called modules, and modules
are libraries and bits of
code that people make that
you can include in your
program that automatically
made it certain methods
and certain functions.
You know, for example,
the one that I really
found in handy was back
about a month ago, I
needed to have a bot for
binrev, for those of you
who, I'm sorry, a bot for
the pound binrev, which is
our IRC channel on
irc.dal.net.
So, after looking at a
bunch of bots, like, you
know, what is it, emec and
eggdrop and all the other
ones, I found that none of
them really fit my needs, so
I, basically, I sat down and
started figuring out, okay,
I need to code a bot, and
of course, what did I pick
but Perl, because Perl can
do everything.
Now, you know, normally
with a programming language,
you have to write a way to
sometime to connect with a
socket, a way to write data
to the socket, read data
from the socket, control
idle checks, watch for
disconnections, watch for
joins, do all the stuff in
the channel, send to a
channel, and basically, I'd
have to start reading the
protocol RFC and handling it
that way, however, you know,
Which, I'll tell you, for
IRC is, IRC is basically a
telnet session, but still, it
is annoying to write a
client from scratch, I had
to do it for a programming
class once, and it sucked.
You had to write an IRC
channel for, ooh, I mean,
that was...
Yeah, I had to write a
telnet client, and one of the
tests was to make a couple
of modifications and use it
as an IRC client.
It was terrible.
Yeah.
Some of us, I mean, I have
one of us, I was actually
trying to do something with
C++ and sockets, and it was
just, it was painful.
It really was.
I couldn't even imagine
trying to implement the IRC
protocol, because even though
it's telnet, it handles all
of its messages in a certain
format, there's an RFC for it,
I think it's 43, 35, I don't
know, I'm not even going to
throw a number out there.
There's some RFC out there,
and there's about, I think
there's like 400 different
types of messages you have
to handle that, you know,
to be perfectly functioning
as an IRC client.
So, I mean, I was just ready
to cry, and I was figuring
that I'd have to do this
over a telnet session.
However, there's something
called, thanks to the
wonders of modules, there's
something called PoE
Component IRC, and I tossed
it into my thing, and I started
writing code around it, and
what it is, basically, every
time something happens, it
calls a certain function.
You say, okay, when X
happens, do this.
When Y happens, do this.
When Z happens, do this
other thing.
And quite literally, this
model saved, this module
saved me weeks upon weeks
of coding, because I, and
quite frankly, this module
saved me, because I don't
think I'd be able to write a
bot in Perl or any other
language that handles the
IRC protocol.
It's nuts.
So, and, you know, we have
all these modules, and that's
a really cool idea.
Yeah, so it's cool by
itself, but what all the
maintainers did a few years
back, actually, I have no
idea when they did it, they
said, no, oh, geez, we have
all these modules, we should
make them easy to get.
So they made a project called
the Comprehensive Perl
Archive Network, or CPAN.
I'm assuming I'm pronouncing
that right.
I've never actually heard it
pronounced by somebody.
Actually, every person that I
know that uses it calls it
CPAN.
Oh, okay.
And they worship it, because
it is one of the greatest
things ever.
Yeah, well, let's explain
what it is.
We'll just spell it the
best thing ever, and we'll
just leave it at that.
Yeah, that's cool.
Just forget it.
Yeah, it's a CPAN.
That's what it is.
CPAN is the shizzle.
Just use it.
We won't tell you how to
use it, but you should be
using it if you use Perl.
No, anyway, but what CPAN
is, it's basically a giant
laundry list of all the
modules that, you know,
basically they do
everything from, you
know, connecting to IRC
to making sure a, you
know, a phone number is
theoretically valid for the
Ukraine.
They have modules that do
everything.
Stuff that automates
Telnet clients, stuff that
automates Telnet servers.
You can open up raw TCP
sockets.
It's just, it's simply
amazing all the crap that
people do with this
programming language.
It's kind of scary.
But, you know, what the
cool thing is about it is
the way to access the
archive, you can do it
through the web and
there's like, you know,
15 bazillion ways to
actually access it.
But they have included
modules in the Perl
distribution itself that
you can run through the
Perl client on the
command line that will
allow you to interface
with the database,
download all your crap,
you know, interface with
it.
I mean, it's all just
there in the basic Perl
distribution, so all you
need to do is, you know,
pull it up and you're all
set.
Once you do that, you
can have full access to
all the archives and you
say install net component
IRC, or I'm sorry, POE
component IRC, and it
automatically pulls it
down, it tests it for you,
it installs it, and you're
all set to go.
You can use it in your
system.
It's, besides like a quick
configuration that you have
to do the first time you do
it, it's instantaneous.
It's amazing.
This is the best feature of
Perl, in my opinion.
All the modules and
everyone can be treating to
it and just them making it
so easy to get to.
I mean, there's tons of C++
and there's tons of C
libraries out there that
people access it, but
they're just all distributed
and you have to, like, you
know, pour through Google
to find them and it's really
difficult.
It's not fun.
No, it's not fun.
And Perl has just, you know,
set it up and made it
incredibly easy to access.
It's cool.
And really, there's a
million things you can do
with Perl.
Perl has ability to, you
know, if you want to create
a GUI tool, if you want to
create a GUI for your
program, like graphical user
interface, Perl can do that.
They interface with, I
believe the interface is with
GTK.
I believe there's a QT binding
for it that you can, you
know, in your Perl program,
you can control it and
actually have a window pop
up on your, whether you'll be
KDE or GNOME or whatever
your X windowing
environment is.
Do they have stuff for
just raw X, you know, or
like motif?
You know, I believe there
is some raw X stuff and I
think there's open, I know
there's OpenGL stuff too.
I've just never really
gotten it to work.
I've never actually heard
of the OpenGL.
That's something I have to
check it in.
You can do anything with
it.
You know, Perl can grab
data off the web, you
know, pop it off the, you
know, pop it out via the
phone with asterisk, which
is the module I've just
recently, I wouldn't say
just recently.
I settled upon right
after I started
programming with asterisk
and it is just, it used
to be cool, you used to
be able to take stuff off
the web and put it into a
format you want.
Now you can, you know,
take stuff off of the web
and have it read it back to
you over the phone.
It's amazing.
It's the shizzle.
Have you done fun things
with Perl?
Actually, my title in the
forums, the data
pillager, I got that
pretty much because Perl
enabled me to write a
bunch of scripts and
just pull mountains and
mountains and mountains
data off the internet
and stuff them in
databases and then using
PHP, I can make a user
interface to it.
And essentially, that's
really how Bell's
Mine started.
So I've done a lot of
data pillaging with Perl
and I'm totally in love
with it for that.
Yeah, it's simply amazing.
Where did you pull your
data from, if I may ask?
Or do you want to admit to
it?
How about that?
Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
I fully admit to it.
I pulled data from NAMPA,
the North American Numbering
Client Association.
I pulled data from CNAC,
the Canadian numbering
something.
The damn connects with
phones.
I pulled it from those
guys.
And, well, DSLreports.com
was particularly interesting
because every few hours,
they would block whatever
I was doing.
But they were blocking
by user agents.
So I just told Perl,
hey, change your user
agent to something else.
And the funny story about
that is that I initially
sent my user agent to
Bob Dole and they
blocked the user agent
of Bob Dole.
So I changed the user
agent from Bob Dole to
Bob Dole 2.
And then they blocked
that.
And then I changed it to
Bob Dole 3.
And this went on about
15 or 20 times.
I guess they didn't kind
of pick up on the hint
like maybe he's going
to up it by one and
call Bob Dole again.
But, you know, in
three or four days,
I had all of DSLreports.com.
I'm sure it was
automated.
I'm actually probably
someone like poured
through the logs
afterwards and someone
said, what the hell is
this guy doing?
Of course, by then you
were like a thief in
the night and going
away.
So basically what you're
saying is you pulled
data down from three
separate data sources,
all via Perl, and
combined it into one
giant database.
And it does it all
automatically, too.
Actually, the Nampa
Daily Updates pulls
the data from Nampa.
They have an Excel
spreadsheet that they
release every day.
And Perl takes the
Excel spreadsheet,
extracts all the data
out of it, figures
out which ones are
table headers and
which ones are actual
cells of data, and
then turns it into
an insert statement
and inserts it into
the database.
It also diffs it from
the previous.
It'll check to see if
the record has changed
or not.
And if it has, it
makes a note in the
calendar.
So it says, this
record changed on this
date.
So it does a lot of
stuff.
So the file that you
pulled down is an
Excel file?
Oh, yeah.
It's an Excel
spreadsheet.
And can Perl read
that?
I just use a program
called Excel HTML, and
I take that and I
type it into Perl and
extract the data from
there.
See, that's just, I
mean, that's just
Perl excels.
It's just, it's amazing
all the crap that it
can do.
It really is.
Yeah, I think there
actually is a module
for Perl that does
read Excel files.
But at the time when
I was doing a
development, I just
didn't have time to
play with it.
Yeah.
And, you know, Perl
doesn't do everything,
I will admit.
Wait a second.
Hmm?
Are you sure it
doesn't do everything?
Okay, how about
this?
It doesn't do
everything easily.
Okay, that's fair.
Actually, that
actually reminds me
of one of my slides
from my asterisk
presentation when I
was talking about
the module that
talks to asterisk
with Perl.
One of the lines
was, you know,
easily integratable
with Perl, which
easily integrates
with everything.
And I actually had
the second easily
crossed out,
because, you know,
sometimes Perl
can be interesting.
But basically, if
you toss enough
time and effort
to it, you'll
get it done.
You really will.
It just, it'll
sit there and,
you know, it'll
just function away.
I mean, it may
not look pretty.
One of the major
complaints with,
you know, more of
the classical
programmers, they
complain that, you
know, Perl's not
pretty enough and,
you know, it's not
elegant.
But basically, you
know, Larry Wall,
when he designed
this, I think I
talked about him,
didn't I?
Yes.
Yes, I did
mention him.
Larry Wall, the
creator of Perl.
He's a god, in
my opinion.
He just designed
it.
He basically, the
way he designed
it was, he was
at his government
job, I believe it
was government or
something.
He was at his
job, and his
boss came to him
and said, hey, we
need something that
will do this.
So he said, well,
geez, all these
tools, like, you
know, Krep
Auken said, will
kind of work
together.
But I think it
would be easier if
I just designed my
own programming
language, at which
point Perl was
born.
And, you know, it
really is.
You know, Perl can
be a giant
kludget sometimes,
and I've seen
more than enough
code that you
write, and then
you come back
about two months
later, and you
look at your
source code, and
you say, what
was I thinking?
That's, I don't
understand that.
And you have to,
like, sit there and
relearn your code,
because unless you
properly document it,
and I guess you
could technically
say this for, you
know, all types of
code, if you don't
properly document it,
you'll never
understand it
afterwards.
Can you attest to
that?
Oh, yeah, definitely.
But I think Perl is a
little different.
I think Perl gives
you the freedom to be
a little more clever,
and I'm putting clever
in double quotes there,
because you may have a
great idea and say,
oh, I can do this a
little bit simpler and
save a couple of lines
of code by doing this.
But when you do it and
then forget to document
it, I think Perl can
trip you up a little
bit more than any
other language.
So, yes, you will
start to cry.
I've done it before.
Yeah, Perl has an
uncanny ability to come
back after you've left
it for a couple of
months, and you come
back to your script
to edit it, and it
looks completely like a
line noise.
And what line noise
is, for those of you
who don't know, back in
the days of modems and
everything, if your
line was staticky,
you'd start seeing,
like, you know, random
bits of data showing
up, like, you know,
like little pounds and
asterisks and,
just random ASCII
characters show up,
which was, you know,
your computer was
trying to interpret
this crackling on the
line, when in reality
it was just, you know,
the wind blowing your
line about from
between you and the
central office.
Yeah, I just thought
about that.
I was like, wow, I
haven't thought about
line noise in a long
time.
Yeah, isn't that
amazing?
Like, everyone has
DSL now, and you
have to, well, I
wouldn't say everyone
has DSL now.
All the people that we
know have DSL.
I know, but the
thing about it is,
even if you don't
have DSL, if you're
not calling a dial-up
bulletin board, you
don't know what line
noise is, because you
don't see it.
When you have a PPP or
slip connection, or
hopefully nobody still
has a slip connection,
but when you have a
PPP connection to your
provider, you don't see
line noise.
I believe my
university, I don't
think they have it
anymore, but they've
recently terminated all
their slip stuff,
because what they used
to do is they'd have
the modem, and over,
they'd have this giant
modem rack, and they'd
be talking a slip to
the terminal servers.
Oh.
Yeah, that was pretty
scary when I got the
email saying, oh,
yeah, we're going to
retire all of these
things.
I was like, oh, God,
you still have that?
This is 2004.
Yeah, exactly.
And also, now that I
think about it, even if
you have, even if you're
calling up that at
bulletin boards, if you
have, like, MMP5 or any
of those types of error
correction, you're
probably not going to
see it either.
So, if you've seen
line noise, you are
old school, officially.
Yeah, you see it for a
little extent.
I mean, depends on
what the, we're kind
of drifting here, but
let's go take a strip
down memory lane,
because, hey, why
not?
We're running low on
material.
No, we have plenty
of material.
Yeah.
I mean, if you had a
lot of stuff that would
update stuff, like
ANSI feeds and, you
know, trying to get
complicated displays,
you'll start running
into that as, you
know, something along
the line told it to
update, you know, the
cursor at 8025 and
accidentally interpret
that as 8023, so you
got this little bit of
data down there that
doesn't look correctly.
I remember back in the day
playing multiplayer Star
Trek, which was
essentially this giant
ASCII board, and they
had a key that would
say, redraw screen, and
I'd hit it, like, you
know, about once every
20 seconds, because my
screen would just start
looking at crap.
I'd be firing on a
Romulan warbird that was
at a certain coordinate,
and it was in reality
just, you know, some
badly updated piece of
data.
Yeah, I remember
that.
Not in that game, but
there was a game called
the, I think it was
called The Pit, and you
would fight other
people, other computer
players, or if you were on
a multi-node BBS, oh my
God, that had, like, two
or three people calling
in, you could play in
real time against the
other players.
And I remember on that,
you would get a little
bit of blindness, and
you would throw the
whole fight off, because
you wouldn't know where
the other person was.
So you'd sit there and
hit Control-L, Control-L,
Control-L to update the
screen, and hope that it
would work.
That was the same key for
Star Trek.
Memories!
Oh, man, old school.
I'm so glad that somebody
else remembers some of
this stuff, because
sometimes I mention it to
people, and they just
look at me like I'm a
thousand years old.
Oh, yeah, no, it's
depressing.
We're not trying to
knock any of you
younger crowd out there,
but you make these
jokes about, you know,
people are talking
about Telnet, what the
hell is that?
And you're like,
what?
What do you mean?
You never used
Telnet before?
Yeah, seriously.
It's kind of sad.
I mean, even now,
because everyone uses
SSH, people don't use
Telnet anymore.
People shouldn't use
Telnet anymore.
People probably still
use it because they
don't know any better.
Oh, yeah, I know
some people that do.
Oh, yeah, I remember,
God, SSH, what the
hell is that?
No one ever had that.
I remember using
Telnet, you know,
TelnetSurfers.org,
slash, no, sorry,
not TelnetSurfers.org,
space 4242.
Connect you over to
port 4242, and I
used to go on my
multi-user dimension.
Actually, it was at
org or dot org,
org.uk.
I completely forget.
Back in the, oh,
God.
What are my accounts
still there?
That'd be a hoot.
Oh, my God.
Yeah, I got on the
internet back in 1995,
for those of you who
don't know.
So, I'm a bit of an
old-timer.
It was very scary when
I realized that I'd
been on the internet
for 10 years.
Wow, you know, I
hadn't really thought
about it.
I don't remember what
year it was, but I was
still in high school, so
it was definitely either
92 or 93, I suppose.
And that was a big
event.
Like, nowadays,
everybody's got
internet access, and
you know, it's no big
deal.
When I had internet
access, at least for me,
because I was a
hardcore geek, and
still am, I was like,
wow, I am on the
internet.
People don't understand
how cool this is.
People didn't know what
the hell the internet
was back then.
No, nobody knew
what the internet was.
None of that kind of
crap.
And, like, I remember
telnetting to different
systems, and, like,
talking to people
online through Usenet
in, like, different
places over the world.
I had math on my
wall, like a true
loser.
And true loser
style, I had a map
on my wall, like a
world map, and I
had, like, little,
like, pushpins, like
people that I knew
that were on the
internet, and I
would, like, put a
little pin for, you
know, for people that
I had met on the
internet.
And I had tons of
them all over the
place.
I gotta say, I
never actually did
that, although I
did have my world
map for radio
contacts, which was
my other, I don't
know, weapon of
choice, I guess you
could call it.
That's what I used
to use mine for.
I got on the
internet, but,
you know, on
December
94, I think.
That's what it was.
I got a modem for
my, for Christmas, and
that's where I
started, and I got
this little ISP, and
it was, you know,
mom and pop, and
they've since been
sold, like, two or
three times, and I
don't even know what
they were, I think
they're owned by
Primus now, which is
very depressing.
And that's what I
used to do, and I
used to do the same
thing I used to do,
Usenet, and God,
God, I haven't been
in Usenet in
forever.
I think I had that
in my Speakeasy
account.
I think I have to
fire that up.
And it was just,
and people, like, I
used to, oh, email,
and people used to
look at me and say,
email, what the
hell is that?
And I distinctly
remember saying to
myself, you know,
World Wide Web, what
the hell is that?
Oh, yeah, I remember
being a real fan of
Gopher back in the
day.
Yeah, Gopher was
the shit.
I actually think
there's, like, a
couple of ports out
there.
I'm going to set up
a Gopher server on
my, you know, on
my server.
I'm going to put,
like, old school
freaking test on
there.
That's what I'm
going to do.
Add that to my
to-do list.
I'm going to be
like, yeah.
Dude, Gopher
colon slash slash,
man.
Oh, my God.
Does Firefox
support that?
I don't even know.
I know Mozilla
used to do it.
You know something?
I'll bet you that
it does.
Gopher colon slash slash.
Oh, look at that.
It does.
Wow.
Oh, my God.
That's pretty neat.
I'm going to try that
out.
I'm going to find a
Gopher server someplace
now.
Essentially, Gopher
was, for those of you
who don't know,
Gopher was the stuff
before the web, and
what it was is it used
to have just a bunch
of cascading menus.
It didn't actually
have, like, hypertext
or anything.
It's vaguely related
to HTTP, the transfer
protocol, at least, but
nothing like HTML.
Basically, you know,
you'd say, you know,
oh, I want to see
stuff, you know, see
stuff in archaeology,
and then it's like,
okay, well, you want
to classify stuff by
author, and you go
down, and basically,
it's just like this
giant directory, and
you'd have, like,
archaeology, authors,
authors starting with
the letter Z, and,
you know, Zimler, I
can't think of a Z
starting name.
Some authors starting
with Z, and you'd get
like a list of text,
text, and I've got to
say, it was pretty
cool at the time.
I thought it was
pretty nice.
Back in the day,
what we used to
use to is, like, you
know, graphics and
everything.
God, we didn't have
those, did we?
Unless you were, like,
really cool back in the
time.
No, I remember hearing
about the World Wide
Web and Gopher, and I
remember I had a Gopher
client that had no
graphics, and I remember
actually making fun of
somebody, because I was
like, ooh, I can't just
read my information, I
need to have pretty
graphics to go along
with it.
It's funny how things
change.
So, yeah, my first
internet account,
definitely no graphics,
all text mode.
No PPP.
It was all text for me,
too.
Just text.
And even before
internet access, I
did have a motive, but
I just had dial-up
BBS that I connected
to, and some of them
had graphics, but not
most of them.
It used to be, like,
ASCII art.
Yeah, they had ASCII
art, and then they
came out, if anybody's
really interested in
looking this up, there
was a protocol called
RIP, not the routing
protocol, but there was
another protocol called
RIP, where you could
connect with a special
client and dial up and
get, like, you know,
these weird, like,
vector-based graphics
that it would draw, you
know, it would draw a
couple of lines and then
fill it in.
Oh, that's pretty
cool.
See, I sort of skipped
the whole BBS thing.
I came in and basically
plunged straight onto the
internet.
I never really got
interested in anything
else beyond that.
You know, where I
lived, I had no option
to get internet access
for years.
I looked everywhere for
it.
I called up all of the
universities, and I
all said, no, either we
don't have internet
access, or we do, but
it's only available to
students.
And being that I was
12, I didn't really
qualify.
You weren't in
college when you
were 12?
Maybe I could have
gone to community
college.
Dude, you could have
social engineered your
way in, though.
But elite?
Yeah, I should have, but
I was lame at the
time.
I still am lame, but
I was more lame.
Obviously, this is a
kind of lameness other
people like me try to
aspire to.
Yeah, well, let's see if
I ever get another
project done, then
people can start saying
I'm not lame.
But my motivation now
is that I'm feeling
very lame.
Okay, so we've
completely drifted off
topic here, so let's
go get back to
Perl.
Yeah, Perl.
I think we pretty much
explained everything.
Just try the
tutorials, figure it
out.
It's a lot of fun.
Basically, I think
Perl, I have a quote
here, and basically I
feel that it
submises Perl
perfectly.
I found it on the
web.
It's by Charles
C-A-Z-A-B-A-O-N.
I'm sorry, C-A-Z-A-B-O-N.
Cazabon or something.
And he says, Perl
isn't really a Swiss
Army knife.
That's more like C.
Perl is a large
metallic toolbox
containing, one, a
complete set of
boxed end wrenches,
both metric and
imperial, except for
10 millimeters and
3-eighths inch.
Two, a selection of
five machinist
hammers.
Three, one regular
construction hammer.
Four, 10 and 12
pound sledge
hammers.
Five, a complete
set of Robertson
screwdrivers.
And six, an infinite
length of duct tape.
And I've got to say
that fits Perl to a
T.
Yeah, that's
really clever.
I've never heard
that before.
I think I got it
from Alt-SysAdmin
Recovery, which is
another, actually, no,
I'm not going to say
it out loud.
No one go there,
please.
Don't go there
unless you're used
to Usenet.
Hopefully nobody's
used to Usenet
anymore.
Yeah, I don't think
anyone really does
besides spammers.
And people who
trade wares.
Wares, really?
Yeah, yeah, you'd be
surprised.
Oh, I'll have to
check that out.
That's not what I'm
saying.
But I do know
people who get
like Super News
or Air News
accounts or something
like that, and
they go on there
because they say
that it's the best
place to find
wares.
Essentially what I'll
do is I will look at
it and say,
oh, look at that.
That's neat
because I do not
believe in software
piracy because
software piracy is
bad.
Neither does
DDP.
Ah.
You could believe
in porn, though.
They said there's a
lot of porn there,
too.
Oh, I know there's
a lot of porn there.
What do you think I
was doing on the
Usenet when I was
13?
Jeez.
Ah, yes.
Okay.
Fair enough.
We no longer
actually support that
either.
Any other fun
Perl-related
things to wrap up
with?
No, not really.
Just, you know,
mess around with it,
play with it,
and look for all
the modules first.
Before you go write
anything huge,
definitely check out
CPAM like we were
saying.
Yeah.
Somebody's probably
implemented, you
know, whatever you've
thought of already.
Yeah.
And essentially,
a lot of the times
it's just one module
will do one thing,
another module will
do the other thing,
and what you have to
do is just interhook
them together in one
way, shape, or form.
I mean, that's
essentially what I do
with Asterisk in a
lot of my more
quote-unquote
cooler programs.
I took the email
reading program,
I took the Asterisk
AGI module which
interfaced with
Asterisk, and I
took an IMAP module
that interfaced with
the Internet Mail
application protocol,
access protocol or
something, and I
just basically
hammered it out
together with my,
you know, 10 and
12-pound sledge
hammers and made
them work together
and talk to each
other.
And that's all it
was, and that's
what make modules so
cool.
Yep.
So I think we'll
just kind of move
on to the wrapping
up here because we're
talking about line
noise and BBSs and
then talking about
sledgehammers and
Perl.
Oh, hey, you
know, if people
don't appreciate
that, then that
would really hurt my
feelings.
Yes, I think we'll
get a couple of
emails saying,
line noise, what's
that?
Or, oh, I
remember doing the
BBS thing.
Yeah, if anybody
out there remembers
line noise and
MMP4 and MMP5 and
V32 and V42 and
V42 bits and all
those other standards
that everyone would
brag about, yeah,
when somebody got
one of these modems,
so I started on a
2400 board modem,
but when I
upgraded to a
14-4 and it had
like all these
crazy standards and
like no more line
noise because it had
MMP5 and all this
other crap, if
anybody remembers
going through that
phase of buying a
$500 14-4 modem,
please, write us
email because I
would love to hear
about it.
Radio at
BinRev.com and
we'll go set up a
mailing list like
the, you know,
oldfarts-l or
something.
Yes, definitely.
Anyway, we have
actually a lot of
announcements this
week.
So far, we got an
email from 2600
Denver and I'm not
sure if this is a
real Denver 2600
group or just a
handle, but he's
starting a meeting
in Denver, takes
place at the
Borders Cafe, and
I'm going to
mispronounce this,
Parker and
Arafo, A-R-A-P-A-H-O-E,
and it starts at
about 5 and ends
about between 8
to 9 or so, and
is held on the
first and third
Fridays of the
month, and that
would mean that
would be this
Friday.
I think that's the
third Friday,
wouldn't it?
Yeah.
I believe BinRev
meetings are this
week.
Do you have a
BinRev meeting in
New York?
I don't have one
in Boston.
No, no.
Not yet.
I've been thinking
about doing a
meeting for a
while.
I just, I've
got to make sure
that the time
works out, which
it never does.
Yeah, no, it
never does for me
either.
Let's see.
And for those
of you in Boston,
the MIT flea market
this Sunday from
9 to 2, basically, I
think I've discussed
this before, it's
essentially a flea
market for geeks.
Every type of
electronic piece of
equipment you can
find there, it's a
treacherous.
It's a religious
experience, really.
You should go
there.
I'll be there.
Boston 2600 will be
there, and if you're
anywhere around
Boston, you should be
too, so no excuses.
Come on, let's go.
I think next week
we're going to
start blending over
to freaking, and
Strom and I, if he
gets back from his
camp x-ray or
wherever it is, we're
going to try to do
our asterisk
presentation, but no
promises on that
one, we're not
sure.
Shouts, you got
any shouts?
My shouts go to
Natus, because he
is very quickly
learning PHP and I
think Pearl as
well, so let's
not for this project
that he's doing
right now.
I mean, he's been
asking me PHP-related
questions all week
too, so.
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
but, you know, he's
picking it up fast.
It's kind of creepy
how fast he's picking
it up.
We should do another
PHP thing.
There we go.
There's a topic for
some other week.
Whatever week
Strom doesn't show
up, PHP.
Yeah.
Oh, no, Strom does
PHP.
Oh, really?
I have no idea.
He uses Pearl, too.
He does some crazy
shit with Pearl.
I had no idea
Strom was programming.
Yeah, not as much
as us, but otherwise,
I know, we wouldn't
insult him for that.
Let's see, I'm not
sure if I...
Shouts to Chris for
sending me that
Ubuntu pronunciation.
Ubuntu.
I need to start
reading that, because
I'm still using
Ubuntu, but whatever.
And Steve-O for
correcting my stupid
mistake on saying
silence the feed is a
Linux shell account
when in reality
it's BSD-based.
Pardon me.
I, you know,
apologize profusely.
You're a terrible
person.
I'm horrible, aren't
I?
You'll never be
forgiven.
Site of the week,
bellsmind.net,
since not
theories on the show.
Yeah, it's free
and if you haven't
been there, go there
right now.
Check it out.
Oh, my God.
I'm almost motivated
to finish up some of
these features now,
but I have so much
work to do, I can't.
Well, there you go.
I promise there
will be neat things
coming, and whenever
I can, and whenever
I get it done, there
will be an announcement
on the show, if you
guys have time.
You have, I'm just
going to send it on
over, I'll gladly
take shots for that.
Yeah, you have 22
hours if you want to
get it done, because
that's when the
stands in the air.
Let's see, email,
as always, radio
at binrev.com.
The closing music for
this week, I'm doing
a little bit of risque
here, because this is a
band that I've fallen
in love with.
It was around back in
mid-2000s, about
2000 or so, and it's
a band called
Splashdown, and what
it was is, this is
why MP3s are so
cool.
They recorded an
album, no one wanted
to produce it, or
actually sell it, and
they fought with them
for about a year and
a half, and at which
point they finally
said, we're breaking
up, we're sorry,
they had some
creative differences,
whatever.
At which point, they
took all their
albums, and they
made them an MP3
and they sent
around saying,
guys, do whatever
you want with this,
it's all yours, we
don't care anymore.
So I'm going to try
to do it, and
hopefully we won't
get sued, and I
won't have to edit
this out at some
point, because I
mean, I have a copy
of the email
someplace saying,
this is open for
distribution.
So they basically
open-sourced
everything, and this
is what MP3s are so
cool, because
essentially you would
never find this
unless they
released it like
this, because
right now I'd
probably be sitting
in some record
company's closet just
collecting dust.
And the music
tonight is called
Iron Spy, which I
think is one of
their best songs.
So, anything else
you would like to
say tonight?
No, that's it.
So I guess we'll
see you next week,
same hack time.
Same hack channel.
Iron Spy, I didn't hear you
coming from behind, yes I'm afraid
to turn around, no one to point, no whisper, like a child.
I'm so surprised to hear you now.
I understand someone who lays down on the top of the screen
I don't see
through the переж optimal
ねぇ
I thought five or three
but I saw you
Yeah, you've never been truly mine, but if you were, yes, if you were, I wouldn't want you anyway.
I'm free to stay. I promise I'm trying to hide it now. You've made the guts to stay to watch this dream.
Just make sure if she just stays with me.
Stop my hands from taking my hurt and my fine time.
Stopped in lightning, raging anger. Yeah, you've never been truly mine, but if you were, yes, if you were, I wouldn't want you anyway.
Yeah, you've never been truly mine.
Stopped in lightning.
Stopped in lightning, raging anger. Yeah, you've never been truly mine, but if you were, yes, if you were.
If you were, yes, if you were.
I wouldn't want you anyway.
Oh, Lord.
Stopped in lightning, raging anger. Yeah, you've never been truly mine.
Stopped in lightning.
Stopped in lightning, raging anger. Yeah, you've never been truly mine.
But if you were, yes, if you were, yes, if you were.
I wouldn't want you anyway.
Stopped in lightning.
I wouldn't want you anyway.
Stopped in lightning.
I wouldn't want you anyway.
Thank you.