This is dedicated to all the hackers and the crackers
I see in binary, I speak source code
Step on my toes, I'll post a million day pages of you in a fag poem
In your digital stance, getting firewalled ho
Cause I'm riding the net in my six-fold
I was a dick with my 56
Now with my cable, I'm able to get that stable
On the out, my name is Ace and I'm a Leo
On the digital highway, my name is Neo and I'm a hero
In a flash, I'll screw you on burning dreamcast
You need some ISO? Let me through my hard drive rifle
Our exchange you could never stifle
And a digital hug, you just caught the love bug
I bootlegged your CD, I caused a fight between Un and Jay-Z
Your CG, it's all gonna be free
Whether we take it by force or we take it nicely
You feel that rattle in your bones?
When I tell you we just hacked out Jones
And NASDAQ, leave your pride on your back
Cause I am he who loves to hack and crack
Welcome to Binary Revolution Radio episode 111
For August 30th, 2005
Black Ratchet is on vacation in Brazil
Um, you know, signing tons of receipts and stamping them
And dealing with mountains of paperwork and ducts
And, uh, squashing bugs
DJ Sub-Zero is our co-host this evening
Hello DJ Sub-Zero
What's happening man?
Not too much
So, tonight's topic is telephony
Past, present and future
This will be one of the more hard technical shows that we've done
It's all been kind of fluff and is this thing on type of stuff up until now
But we're gonna try and do something more technical this week
So, we're going to attempt to take live calls
I've got a number set up
And I'm advertising in the forums and in the IRC channel
For people to call in and ask questions about telephony
Um, I'm not sure how successful this is gonna be
Since we're actually recording the show ahead of time
But, if anyone does show up
Yeah, it could work, it could work
We did it for the ASTRS presentation
So, we'll, uh, we'll give it a shot
Exactly
So, before we get started
Is there anything you want to talk about?
Sub-Zero
Um, no, not right now
I'm good for now
Alright
Cool
Yeah
Our first email is from Hepram
He says
Hey there, Black Ratchet and Strom
I really enjoyed your asterisk talk
That you featured in the most recent episode of Bin Rev Radio
I've been relatively interested in asterisk for a while now
But, up until recently, I haven't had the motivation to get on
Sorry
I haven't had the motivation to get going with VoIP and asterisk
Being in the UK, the VoIP market is definitely less well developed than that of the US
But, after a bit of searching, I've managed to find some providers which outwardly support the use of asterisk
I'm downloading asterisk right now and playing around with it
Aside from that, I have a comment to make
Due to the very nature of a presentation, there is too much information included to be covered properly by show notes
So I'm requesting that the openoffice.org presentation file, or a PDF of it, be put up somewhere for public consumption
Sorry if it's already up and I've just overlooked it
Keep up the good work, Hepram
Well, for some reason...
I'm sorry?
No, I was just going to say, good email
Yeah, it's a good email
Well, I'm glad to hear that you've enjoyed Asterisk and playing with it and whatnot
It's certainly a big thrill to set up
For some reason, I honestly thought that Ratchet was going to put the presentation up on his website
But I guess he didn't
So I'll have the material up either on my website or on BinRevRadio shortly
If I can get access to the website
So...
Is that your phone going off?
Yeah
I think it's you calling me in the other line
No, it's somebody calling me though
Oh, you're shutting it off
Private number
I wonder who that is
Sweet
No, I was going to say about this email though
I know how you feel
Because like, even in the United States, there's areas that like VoIP isn't, you know, there's not a big market for it right now
Like for instance, I live in Iowa
And in Iowa, if I mentioned VoIP to anybody, they would just freak out and not know what it is
It's like VoIP
It kind of sounds like a sound from like a movie or something
I don't know
VoIP, it's a new drug craze
Yeah, it's a new drug
No, but like, that's what happens
I mean like, right now, I mean VoIP is a big thing because
I mean like, that's where technology is going
But on the other hand, it's not everywhere yet
And like, we're like behind the times here in Iowa
So don't feel bad like, for being in the UK and things are not like, as developed as the United States
Because like, even in the United States, like, there's way, there's like a lot of areas that don't even know what VoIP is yet
Yeah, I'm looking up and I'm just seeing if there's anything
I'm trying to find a PST and termination provider for the UK
I know they're out there
I'm not sure who it is
Although I know that Broadvoice, although Broadvoice can't give you a UK number
They will give you free calls to the UK as part of your plan
So there's one solution
Yeah, definitely
Alright, let's go on to the next email
This one's from ImperialDragon144
Hi, angle bracket, who's on the show? Close angle bracket
I guess I'm supposed to actually put my name in there, so
Hi, I think that's from, it's from me
Okay, so, hi, SubZero and Strom
I don't know if you've heard, and if yes, I'm sorry to bring old news
But Google released an IM client, www.google.com slash talk
It doesn't seem to have anything more than other IM clients
Except being made by Google, but that seems to be enough for some people
Will Google one day make an OS, a doomsday machine, rule the world?
Seriously, I checked the terms of service and saw some weird stuff
Yes, it's funny, I mean, people think that Google's taking over the world
Anyway, back to email
Seriously, I checked the TOS and saw some weird stuff
Seriously, I checked the terms of service and saw some weird stuff
Use the service for any fraudulent or inappropriate purpose
Inappropriate? What is that?
Swearing? Can they take everything they forgot to prohibit and say it's inappropriate?
Quote, Google may access or disclose your personal information
Including the content of your communications
If Google is required to do so in order to comply with any valid legal process
Or governmental request, unquote
I haven't checked with the other IMs to see if it's common
We don't want trouble with the Feds clause, probably is
But does that mean the information is there?
They record all you say
But does that mean the information is there?
They record all you say
Do I need to say more?
Well, I will
Quote, we do not log any of the content of your chats or calls, unquote
But they just said that
WTF?
Okay, now what they have to explain is this
Google
Now what they have to explain, that is
Google Talk will collect certain log information
Created in the course of a conversation
So they start saying that they are recording the conversation
To recording nothing at all
To recording logs
I know I'd love to check one of those logs
I love your show
Continue the good work
ImperialDragon144
Okay, so I actually have personally tried Google Talk
I downloaded the client
Me and Adam were messing around with it the other day
Just to see what it was all about
And
I don't know about other clients
I obviously know that Google Talk is
I mean
Just like the way Google works
Even with Gmail
You know how they always have
I mean
There always seem to be those ads
That just know exactly what you're talking about
And like I wouldn't be surprised
If Google implemented some sort of like
I guess not logs
Like I don't think they would be
Recording everything that you say
But I'm sure they're like looking for keywords
And like
Stuff that might be objectionable
And I don't know if it's for safety reasons
I know
AOL Instant Messenger a while back
I think had a problem with this before
Because
I think there was
A law case
A while back
I'm not sure exactly what it was
And I'll have to bring that up
If I can later
If I can find it
But
Somebody
There was
I think it was like
An abduction case with a child
And they were looking through logs
Of
Like
The message
Like just that the child
And the person had
But it was kind of weird
Because like
They didn't record the conversation
Somehow there was logs involved
So I'm not sure
Did the individual clients
Have logging turned on?
Let's see
Like I
I don't know exactly
I forget
The like
Total exactly
Details of the
Situation
But like
I know that
Like just for them
To cover themselves legally
I wouldn't be surprised
If they do
Check
I mean
Pretty much anything
On the internet
Can be safely assumed
That it's being monitored
In some way
I mean that's
Just
I'm not a paranoid person
At all
And like
I really honestly
Don't care very much
But
I like
I'm
Going to
Keep believing
And like
Have the impression
That people are watching
Just because
That's just how it is
Right
My interpretation
Of those clauses
Really is that
Apart from recording data
To what you'd expect
To find in web server logs
Google doesn't record
The content of your messages
I mean
Pretty much
If you look at it
Right
Google may
Let me just put this
In order here
Well I mean
It'd be so
Can you imagine
The logs that they'd have
Yeah I mean
If they logged
Every conversation
They would
Just
You know
Their storage requirements
Of the service
Would be mind boggling
I think what it does
Give them
Like
In the terms of service
I think what it
Ends up giving them
Permission to do
Is if there was
Questionable activity
Within a certain
Person's username
That they'd have
The ability to go in
And log
Right
Yeah it gives them
The ability
Should there be
A subpoena
Or questionable activity
Then they can monitor
And see what's going on
Yeah
But you know
And then he says
Well then he mentions
And it says
The service for any
Fraudulent
Or inappropriate
Purposes
I can't talk
Inappropriate
He's like
What is inappropriate
Swearing
Like I think
Basically
They just mean
State laws
Like when they
Talk about
Inappropriate
Purposes
Because
The internet
Has no actual law
I mean there's no law
To govern the internet
So what they do is
Every state
Governs
I mean like
If you're in
You know
Minnesota
And you're doing
Something questionable
In Minnesota
Like you can't gamble
If you're not of age
In Minnesota
You know
So getting online
And gambling
Where you can
It's still illegal
Because you're not
You're within the state
That has those laws
Sort of thing
Like the state
That you're in
Encompasses the laws
That I guess
Bound you to certain
Laws online
Yeah
And I think
The general rule
With most of these things
Is you know
They put things
In the user agreement
For you know
For the purposes
For those situations
Where they really
Do need to exercise
Those parts of the agreements
But I mean
Those are worst case scenarios
Like say
Someone's spamming
Or someone's suspected
Of you know
Abducting someone
Or someone's suspected
Of planning a murder
Using the instant messaging
Service right
So then
You know
They go back
And they can
You know
They can go through
And check
Or if someone
Is harassing other users
You know
They can use those clauses
To suspend the user
From the service
But for the most part
You know
The idea is to provide
Service
Not to be
This oligarchical
You know
Repressive entity
Exactly
So you know
Just use common sense guys
If they
You know
Strenuously monitored
And you know
Restricted
If they acted
Basically like the government
In Orwell's 1984
Right
Then no one would
Use the service
So
Exactly
You know
They just have those clauses
In there for their own
Protection
For cases where that sort of
Stuff has to happen
And like I said earlier
I mean like
It's
If you're
The paranoid
Torridor person
That you're just not
Going to use Google Talk
Because it has this
Like questionable
Terms of service
I mean
Once you start reading
Like most terms of service
For anything
Like
You just sit there
And it's mind boggling
Just because
In the end
All these companies
And businesses
Want to do
Is just carve themselves
For anything
That might go wrong
Or could possibly go wrong
So for that to happen
Like most of these
Terms of services
Are like five pages long
And deal with
Like just a bunch of stuff
That isn't really
Applicable
At the moment
But like
If something happens
You know
They have it there
You know
They can say that
Hey we were ready
For this
So like most of
These places
Don't
I mean
Go to Yahoo
Email
Go to Gmail
Go to like
Anything
Go to any website
And read
Terms of service
For any website
And you'll see like
The exact same thing
Said in every website
And like
They'll monitor things
If they have to
I mean
But that's just
How it is
But if you're
Going to sit there
And be paranoid
About it
Then
I mean
The internet's
Probably not a good
Place for you
To hang out
Well
If you're paranoid
Society is probably
Not a good place
For you to hang out
It'd be better
Go out to the middle
Of the
San Bernardino
County
Into the
San Juan
What is it
The desert
In Southern California
The name of which
Temporarily escapes me
And you know
Just live in
A bungalow
In the ground somewhere
Yeah
So
Yeah
I agree
Yeah
So personal
Hacking story
Did you do anything
Interesting this
Recently
Like
Any personal
Hacking stories
I'm trying to think
I'll think about it
For a second
Because I know
I did something
But I'm
Forgetting what happened
Alright
Well I'll go into mine
Then
Alright go
On Friday
I saw a 35mm
Print of Brazil
Which was
A great lot of fun
I had never seen it
On the big screen before
I only seen a DVD
And that is a great film
If you haven't seen
Brazil yet
Go get the DVD
And watch it
And if you ever
Get the opportunity
To watch it
On a film screen
I highly recommend
You do
Because it's just
Amazing masterpiece
Awesome
I think they showed
On DEFCON TV
As well
Yeah I think
I saw it
On DEFCON TV
As well too
Other than that
School starts this week
For me
I'm going back
To college
After a hiatus
So that's exciting
For me
Nice
Yeah I went back
To school
This past week
And it was
Pretty interesting
Because
I'm now getting
To the point
That like
Have you ever
Seen the movie
Van Wilder
I saw bits and pieces
Of it
But it kind of
Seemed a little
Juvenile for my taste
Yeah yeah
Well for some
Like my goal
In the end
Of my college career
Is to be kind of
Like that guy
Just because
We're like
Everybody knows him
And it's kind of
Getting there
Because it was
Kind of hard
To walk to class
Without seeing
Like I'm on a
Campus with
27,000 people
But like
I couldn't walk
To class without
Like stopping
And knowing
Somebody every
Five minutes
It was kind of
Funny
No I know
What I did
I hooked up
I'm right now
On my desktop
Up to a half
A terabyte
Of space
I have about
550 gigabytes
Of space
I went and
Bought a new
200 gigabyte
Hard drive
The other day
Oh cool
We're doing
Some video stuff
So we like
Need the room
Yeah I bought
Some hard drive
Enclosures the
Other day
And I've been
Playing around
With it
A friend of mine
Asked me to
Restore some data
From his
Crash computer
So I bought
This external
Hard drive enclosure
To put the
Hard drive in
And man
These things
Are cool
They're awesome
Yeah I know
I have two of them
I have three
External hard drives
And two internal
Hard drives
Okay
Yeah I
Quite the amount
Of space
But I mean
With what I do
You know
I kind of
I kind of need it
Oh yeah of course
But yeah
That's pretty much it
Other than just
Trying to get
Things organized
For some stuff
That's going to
Happen next week
I'll just talk about
That at the end
Of the show
Oh cool
Anyway
Last week
I talked about
My idea to do
Music reviews
For the show
And someone
Actually sent in
Music
So here is
The very first
Edition of
Strum's Music
Review
I might come up
With a catchier
Name for it
Later
And if you
If you want to
Suggest a catchy
Name for this
Segment feel free
To email
Radio at
BinRiff.com
Anyway
You need a
Little theme song
Yeah I need
My own music
Review theme song
I don't know
What it is yet
But if anyone
Out there listening
Wants to compose
A Strum's Music
Review theme song
By all means
Feel free
Awesome
Anyway
Ray's
I think that's
How you pronounce it
Of a band called
Post Pathos
I think he said
It's from
A metal band
From New York City
He sent in
Three songs
This band
Recorded
And they're called
Scar
Waste Matter
And Distance
So I listen to these
And they actually
I quite like them
For the most part
The vocals remind me
A lot of
I think it's
Terry Kath
Who does the
First verse of
I'm a man
On the 1969
Chicago Transit
Authority album
The only real
Difference being
That Terry Kath
Wasn't flat
To new songs
He's a good vocalist
On these recordings
But he just
Doesn't hit the note
Correctly
He only seems to
Air on the side
Of flatness
And the songs
Themselves do have
A good emotional
Color to them
But they kind of
Sound muddy
In the mixing
But I don't think
That's any fault
Of the band
Themselves
They probably just
Mix this on their
Computer or something
But I definitely
Like to listen
To these songs
Again when the
Mix is cleaned up
And either the
Vocalist can sing
Or they got a
Vocalist who can
And apologies
To the vocalist
From Post Pathos
But anyway
I recommend that
You go and
Listen to them
Their address is
www.geocities.com
Slash post
Underscore
Pathos
P-A-T-H-O-S
Yes
And we're going
To use
I'm on their
Website right now
Oh cool
Yeah we're going
To use I think
Waste Matter
As the closing
Theme tonight
So we'll get
To hear that
Yeah I'm on
Their website
Right now
They have some
I like the picture
That they have
Is their graphic
It looks pretty
Original
Yeah yeah I love
The visual style
Of the site
Yeah
Alright and
Finally
Let's get into
Our show topic
For the week
Which is
Telephony
A little bit
Of past
A lot of
Present
And a lot
Of future
So
Yeah this is
The hardcore
Telephony show
And so
Pretty much
What I'm going
To do is
I'm just going
To do a
Basic introduction
To telephony
And how it
Works
And the world
Of the analog
Network
And the digital
Network
And the VoIP
Network
Awesome
And SubZero
Here I guess
You're
I forget how
Much you know
About telephones
Dude I'm a
Noob
No I know
A bit
Not enough
Not as much
As you
But I
I can get
Around
Just I'm
Pretty noobish
Though
Alright cool
Well I guess
Then you'll
You'll function
As the
Voice of the
Audience here
Who doesn't
Know telephones
As well as
I do
And ask for
Clarification
Questions
Anything
Sounds good
So
Let me see
Let's
We
I asked
The bin
Reforms
Let's
Actually
See
If
Anybody
Is
Sitting
On
The
Call
In
Queue
At
The
Moment
Someone
Appears
To
Be
Calling
In
So
Let me
Grab
That
Call
Just a
Second
All right
On the
Line
We have
Ponyboy
From
Do you
Want me
To tell
Them
Where
You're
From
Oh yes
Go ahead
All right
Ponyboy
From
Atlanta
Georgia
Let me
Bring him
In
Here
Hello
Ponyboy
Hello
Welcome
And
Congratulations
On being
The very
First
Call in
Question
On
Binary
Revolution
Radio
Well thank
You very
Much
Um
How's
It
My
Question
Was
It's
Going
Great
But
Unfortunately
I did
A radio
Show
About a
Week
Ago
And
The
Topic
Was
The
Future
Of
Telephony
Yes
And
Then
Some
People
Totally
Ripped
Me
Off
Oh
You
Did
What
Show
Was
It
Oh
Belcore
Radio
Yes
Belcore
Radio
I'm
Sorry
I honestly
Did
Not
Intend
To
Rip
To
Rip
You
Off
I
Came
Up
With
The
Topic
Totally
Independently
Of
You
I
Completely
Understand
I
Just
I
Had
To
Find
Some
Way
To
Get
A
Shameless
Plugin
Nice
And
I
Promise
I
Had
Nothing
To
Do
With
It
Alright
So
What's
Your
Question
Ponyboy
Alright
My
Question
Was
Regarding
I
Don't
Know
If
You
Guys
Have
Read
On
Flash
Dot
And
What
Not
About
The
New
Cellular
Technologies
That
Texas
Instrument
Has
Come
Out
With
That
Can
Make
Cellphones
A
Lot
Cheaper
And
Easier
To
Afford
And
I
Was
Wondering
How
You
Guys
Think
That
Is
Going
To
Affect
The
Use
Of
Landlines
And
The
Payphone
Industry
Why don't
You
Give
A
Deeper
Description
Of
The
New
Technology
That
You're
Talking
About
Well
Basically
They've
Instead
Of
Having
A
GSM
Cell
Phone
That
Could
Have
Up
To
Three
Or
More
Chips
Inside
To
Make
It
Run
They've
Basically
I
Don't
Know
The
Exact
Details
Of
How
They
Did
It
But
They
Basically
Got
It
So
That
They
Can
Have
A
Cell
Phone
With
One
Chip
Inside
That
Will
Make
It
Basically
Make
A
Cell
Phone
So
Cheap
That
Just
About
Anyone
Can
Afford
To
Buy
One
Oh
Cool
Did
They
Mention
A
Price
Point
For
The
Completed
Phone
I
Am
Not
I
Don't
Think
That
They're
Marketing
It
Just
Yet
But
I
Think
That
They
Just
Officially
Figured
Out
That
It
Works
So
Very
Cool
Well
I
Mean
Cell
Phones
Are
Getting
Cheaper
Anyway
You
Can
Go
For
80
Bucks
Or
So
And
Buy
A
Prepaid
Cell
Phone
Totally
Anonymously
With
Cash
And
That
Includes
The
Phone
An
Hour
Of
Service
And
60
Minutes
Of
Talk
Time
From
T-Mobile
Or
You
Can
Go
And
Often
Times
You'll
Get
A
Year
Of
Mobile
Phone
Service
However
Many
Dollars
A
Month
And
I
Don't
Think
That
You
Know
If
The
See
The
Way
The
Free
Phone
Thing
Works
Is
That
You
Sign
Up
For
A
Year
Or
Two
Years
Of
Service
Basically
To
Subsidize
The
Cost
Of
Your
Telephone
Set
Because
T-Mobile
Or
Verizon
Or
Singular
Or
Whoever
You
Go
With
Has
To
Purchase
The
Phone
And
They
Give
You
The
Phone
For
Free
Under
The
Assumption
That
You
Are
Going
To
Generate
Enough
Revenue
For
Them
In
Order
To
Actually
Repay
Them
For
The
Cost
Of
Your
Phone
Plus
Generate
Them
A
Profit
So
If
The
Cell
Phones
Themselves
Become
Cheaper
To
Manufacture
The
Long
Term
Impact
Is
Probably
Not
Going
To
Be
On
Cell
Phone
Prices
Themselves
But
On
The
Cost
Of
Providing
Month
To
Service
From
The
Mobile
Phone
Company
And
Even
If
They
Do
Manage
To
Make
Phones
That
Are
Cheap
And
That
You
Can
Buy
Out
Of
A
Vending
Machine
For
$15
Or
Something
And
Buy
Talk
Time
For
10
Cents
A
Minute
I
Think
The
Cell
Phone
Is
Cheap
Enough
Now
To
Where
It
Is
Basically
A
Commodity
Item
People
Do
Spend
Lots
Of
Money
On
Designer
Phones
And
Fancy
Phones
And
What
Not
But
I
Think
At
This
Point
The
Phones
Are
Cheap
Enough
That
Market
Saturation
Is
Even
At
This
Price
Point
Would
Be
Something
That
Is
Likely
To
Happen
What
Do
You
Think
I
Think
Personally
That
I
Agree
With
You
Totally
Because
Right
Now
Cell
Phones
Are
So
Cheap
What
You
End
Up
Paying
For
Is
Not
The
Cell
Phone
It
Is
Service
And
Like
I
Mean
You
Have
Been
Out
And
Like
Even
Those
Are
Like
Considerably
Way
Less
Money
Than
They
Were
Before
Like
I
Remember
When
They
First
Started
Coming
Out
And
Like
Right
Now
Like
There's
Going
To
Be
Like
It's
Just
Easy
I
Why
Pay
Why
Have
To
Go
Deal
You
Know
Buy
A
Cell
Phone
Or
Like
Get
A
Cheaper
Cell
Phone
Just
To
Make
A
Couple
Calls
Like
When
You
Could
Just
Go
To
A
Pay
Phone
Like
I
Don't
Know
To
Me
Personally
I
See
That
It's
Not
Going
To
Have
At
Least
A
Big
Effect
In
The
Long
Run
It
Might
But
In
Short
Run
Way
I
See
Things
Going
The
Pay
Phone
Is
Dying
A
Slow
Death
But
There
Is
A
Market
For
It
You
Go
To
A
Different
State
Or
A
Different
Country
Or
Something
And
The
Cost
Of
Using
Your
Mobile
Phone
There
Is
Just
Expensive
So
You
Use
A
Pay
Phone
Or
A
Wireline
Phone
And
There
Is
Definitely
A
Market
For
Wireline
Services
And
We'll
Get
Into
That
Actually
Because
There
Was
Question
About
That
From
The
Message
Board
But
Pretty
Much
The
Way
I
View
It
At
Least
And
The
Way
Most
People
Use
Their
Telephony
Services
Is
That
The
Home
Phone
Is
Used
While
At
Home
And
The
Mobile
Phone
Is
A
Phone
That
You
Use
While
You're
Outside
Of
The
House
And
You're
Not
Near
Your
Home
And
Your
Office
Phone
And
There
Are
Predictions
Of
People
Who
Think
That
The
World
Is
Going
To
Go
Totally
Wireless
And
We're
Not
Going
To
Have
Any
Wireline
Phones
Anymore
But
Wireless
Calls
Sound
Like
Crap
And
They're
Not
As
Reliable
As
Wired
Connections
And
They're
More
Expensive
In
General
So
Definitely
I was
Just
Going
To
Mention
That
I'm
Like
No
Matter
How
Good
Technology
It
Is
Like
Just
Having
A
Landline
Is
You're
Going
To
Have
The
Quality
That
You
Need
Especially
Like
I mean
For
instance
If
You're
Doing
Big
Business
Meetings
You're
Not
Going
To
Want
To
Have
Static
In
A
Meeting
It's
More
Secure
And
I
Don't
Know
I
Think
Maybe
On
Personal
Use
Cell phones
Might
Get
A
Bit
More
Popular
I
Don't
See
It
Getting
More
Popular
Than
It
Is
Now
Even
My
Ten
Year
Old
Cousin
Has
A
Cell
Phone
So
It's
One
Of
Those
Things
That
You
Know
It's
Going
To
Affect
Some
Things
But
In
The
End
I
Think
It's
Not
Going
To
Have
Quite
The
Most
Visible
Effect
That
People
Are
Expecting
It
To
Have
Right
And
I
Mean
The
Thing
You
Have
To
Look
At
When
You
Look
At
Market
Saturation
Numbers
I
Forget
Exactly
What
The
Market
Saturation
For
Mobile
Phones
Is
These
Days
But
Even
I
Think
I
Heard
CD
Players
Only
Have
80%
Market
Saturation
And
Television
Sets
Only
Have
75%
Or
80%
Market
Saturation
So
You'll
Never
Reach
A
Point
Where
Everybody
Has
A
TV
Set
Or
A
Telephone
Or
A
Compact
Disc
Player
That
Will
Never
Happen
I
Mean
There
Will
Always
Be
Some
Segment
Of
The
Society
That
Doesn't
Either
Can't
Afford
It
Or
Doesn't
Want
It
And
So
You
We're
Kind
Of
Approaching
That
Point
Of
Market
Saturation
With
Mobile
Phones
And
I
Think
The
Technology
Will
Only
Get
Cheaper
And
That'll
Be
A
Benefit
For
The
Mobile
Phone
Industry
But
Even
As
Technology
Gets
Cheaper
I
Mean
Think
About
It
Too
I
Mean
Anytime
That
There's
Like
A
New
Phone
Comes
Out
Like
For
instance
Like
The
Sidekicks
You
Know
Like
When
They
First
Came
Out
They
Like
350
400
You
Know
And
It
Was
Just
The
Thing
To
Do
It
Wasn't
More
I
Mean
People
Weren't
After
Price
They
Were
Just
After
Like
You
Know
Style
I
Guess
Whatever
You
Want
To
Call
It
Yeah
And
That's
Interesting
Because
There's
Always
Kind
Of
This
You
As
Technology
Especially
In
Areas
Where
Technology
Improves
Greatly
As
Each
Year
Goes
Past
You
Know
The
Fact
That
The
Old
Technology
Becomes
Obsolete
And
It's
Kind
Of
Funny
To
Look
At
The
Way
The
Industry
Went
Right
You
Know
Initially
You
Had
These
Big
Brick
Phones
That
You
That
Was
As
Small
As
They
Could
Make
It
And
You
It
Just
Kept
Getting
Smaller
And
Smaller
And
Smaller
And
Smaller
And
It
Kind
Of
Reached
A
Point
Where
The
Technology
Was
Small
Enough
That
Years
Ago
It
Was
Nokia
89
20
Or
Something
I
Forget
Exactly
What
It
Was
But
It
Was
A
Little
Tiny
Nokia
GSM
Phone
Right
And
It
Was
Pretty
Much
The
Same
Feature
Set
As
All
The
Other
Cell
Phones
And
Then
Now
They
Have
Started
To
Become
Bigger
But
Now
Instead
Of
Getting
Smaller
And
Just
Differentiating
On
Size
Is
No
Longer
An
Issue
For
The
Manufacturers
They
Differentiating
On
Features
Yep
Color
Screens
Ability
To
Play
Music
You
Know
And
Ability
To
Do
Text
Messaging
Web
Browsing
And
So
On
Yeah
And
So
The
Technology
Will
Again
Just
Cater
To
The
Demands
Of
The
Market
Yeah
I
Mean
In
The
End
Like
Those
Cheaper
Phones
Are
Probably
Going
To
Help
Out
A
Few
People
And
Like
But
It's
Not
Gonna
Like
Who
The
Cell
Companies
Are
Marketing
To
In
The
End
Is
Not
Those
People
And
Like
Even
If
It's
Going
To
Give
Them
A
Couple
More
Sales
That's
Not
Who
They're
Going
To
Be
Like
Wanting
To
Go
After
They're
Going
To
Come
Out
With
New
Phones
Obviously
That are
Going
To
Cheaper
To
Make
But
They're
Going
To
Be
Higher
Quality
And
They're
Still
Going
To
Be
More
Expensive
Than
Before
I
Mean
If
They
Can
Come
Out
With
A
Phone
That
Has
One
Chip
Set
And
Does
Everything
That
It
Needs
To
Instead
Of
Them
Charging
Less
I
Bet
They're
Going
To
Start
Charging
More
For
Just
For
The
Fact
That
It's
Like
Newer
Technology
Well
I
Mean
There's
An
Interesting
Dynamic
In
Pricing
Things
Versus
Manufacturing
Cost
If
You
Manage
To
Figure
Out
A
Way
To
Manufacture
Something
For
Say
50%
Of
What
It
Cost
To
Manufacture
Before
And
There's
Already
A
Market
Full
Of
Competitors
What's
More
Likely
To
Happen
Is
Not
That
You're
Going
To
Bring
Out
That
Phone
At
The
Lowest
Possible
Price
But
You're
Going
To
Market
It
At
A
Price
Which
Is
Competitive
But
Is
Still
High
Enough
To
Generate
You
The
Maximum
Amount
Of
Profit
You
Can
Make
Yeah
And
I
Was
Going
To
Say
They
Might
Be
Cheaper
Phones
To
Make
But
In
The
End
They're
Not
Going
To
Make
The
Sales
That
They
Could
You
Know
Right
So
They're
Going
To
Be
Wanting
To
Make
A
Better
Phone
With
This
New
Technology
And
Instead
Of
Making
A
Cheaper
Phone
It's
Going
To
End
Up
Being
A
Newer
Phone
With
Better
Technology
But
It
Could
End
Up
Being
More
Expensive
Right
So
Anyway
In
VIN
RADIO
History
Well
Thanks
For
Taking
The
Time
To
Answer
My
Question
There
You're
Very
Welcome
This is
Ponyboy
From Atlanta
Georgia
And
Co-host
Of
Bellcore
Radio
You
Want to
Pimp
Your
Show
What's
The
Site
Give
It
A
Listen
It's
Bellcore
Radio
Dot
Net
New
Episodes
Every
Other
Thursday
Cool
And
That's
C-O-R-E
Not
C-O-R-P-S
Yeah
C-O-R-E
Alright
Awesome
Catch you
Later
Dude
Cool
Awesome
That was
Surprisingly
Successful
Yeah
Now there
Is
Nobody
In
The
Queue
So
Let's
Go
To
Email
Some
Questions
Some
Specific
Questions
Awesome
Okay
What
Should
We
Do
First
Why
Don't
We
Do
Okay
There
Are
Two
Kind
Of
Related
Questions
Here
One
Is
From
Okay
These
Are
Both
From
The
Binary
Revolution
Forum
So
This
Is
From
Binderove.com
Slash
Forum
One
Of
Them
Says
This
Is
From
A
Guy
Named
Andrew
He
Says
You
Could
Talk
About
VoIP
And
Maybe
How
It
Works
How
A
Call
Is
Rooted
Across
The
Country
Through
The
PSTN
And
Or
VoIP
I
Would
Love
To
Find
Out
What
Main
Centers
My
Call
From
Here
In
New
Than
To
Kind
Of
Related
Things
So
Let
Me
See
If
I
Can
Oh
You
Know
What
I
Did
I
Have
A
Copy
Of
Lurk
But
What
I
Did
Was
I
Been
Rewriting
Because
The
Format
Changed
And
I
Loaded
Into
My
SQL
Database
And
I
Didn't
Realize
The
Format
Has
Changed
So
My
Current
Homing
Arrangement
Database
Is
Not
Accessible
At
The
Moment
But
What
I
Do
Is
I
Will
Do
An
Example
That
I
Know
And
I
Will
Post
I
Will
Post
Directly
To
You
Andrew
Or
I
Will
Just
Note
On
The
Show
At
A
Later
Point
How
Calls
Are
Routed
From
Newfoundland
To
California
So
Basically
The
Phone
Network
Is
Made
Up
Of
Switches
And
A
Switch
Not
A
Little
Light
Switch
It
Is
Similar
To
The
Ethernet
Switch
That
You
Have
In
Your
Network
Except
Circuit
Switch
Rather
Than
A
Packet
Switch
The
Three
Main
Switch
Types
There
Are
Well
There
Is
More
Than
Three
But
The
Major
Switch
Types
In
North
America
Are
The
5
ESS
From
Lucent
The
DMS100
And
The
DMS10
From
Nortel
The
GTD5
EAX
Manufactured
By
The
Now
Defunct
Automatic
Electric
Company
There
Is
Also
The
Siemens
What
Is
It
EWSD
Switch
And
There
Are
A
Number
Of
Other
Switches
There
Is
The
Stromberg
Carlson
DCO
These
Are
All
End
Office
Switches
The
Tandem
Versions
Basically
I'll
Knock you up
Ahead
Of
Myself
You
Have
These
End
Office
Switches
Which
Are
Basically
What
Give
You
Dial
Tone
So
You
Pick
Up
Your
Phone
And
You
Get
A
Dial
Tone
And
Say
You
Calling
The
Person
A
Mile
Away
From
You
So
You
Dial
Their
Number
555
2368
The
Switch
Does
A
Translation
On
That
Number
It
Says
Okay
555
2368
My
Prefix
Is
555
And
That
Line
Is
In
My
Line
Tray
So
It
Switches
It
Basically
Finds
A
Point
In
It
Time
Division
Switching
Matrix
And
It
Connects
The
Audio
From
Your
Phone
Line
To
The
Other
Phone
Line
It
Doesn't
Connect
The
Audio
All
The
To
The
Second
Phone
Line
Until
The
Other
End
Picks
Up
But
We'll
Get
Into
That
In
A
Second
What
It
Does
Then
Is
It
Checks
To
See
Whether
The
Called
Line
Is
Free
If
So
It
Starts
Ringing
The
Line
And
If
Not
It
Gives
You
A
Busy
Signal
If
The
Line
Is
Free
And
The
Line
Rings
Voltage
In
North
America
90
Volts
AC
At
20
Hertz
Is
Sent
To
The
Called
Supervised
The
Call
Supervises
And
Your
Audio
Is
Connected
To
Their
Audio
And
You're
Allowed
To
Have
A
Conversation
And
Then
When
One
Of
You
Hangs
Up
The
Call
Is
Torn
Down
That's
The
Most
Basic
Type
Of
Telephone
Call
Which
Is
An
Inter
Office
Call
There's
Also
A
Type
Of
Call
Called
An
Inter
Office
Call
And
This
Happens
When
You
Call
Someone
Who
Is
Not
Served
Out
Of
Your
Telephone
Switch
Obviously
One
Switch
Can't
Serve
A
Whole
City
The
Switches
Tend
To
Serve
An
Area
Roughly
Three
Let's
See
It's
About
18,000
Feet
So
Roughly
Three
To
Five
Miles
In
Diameter
From
The
Actual
Central
Office
Building
Is
Where
The
Area
That
The
Switches
Serve
Sometimes
It's
Smaller
Sometimes
It's
Bigger
Depends
On
The
Telephone
Company
And
The
Area
But
Generally
It's
Call
Someone
20
Miles
Away
And
So
You
Pick up
Your
Phone
You
Dial
Their
Number
And
Say
It's
The
Seven
Number
Say
You
Dial
454
3474
And
The
Switch
Says
Oh
Okay
454
That's
The
Gladstone
Office
And
These
Days
The
Offices
Really
Don't
Have
Names
Anymore
But
They
Used
To
So
The
Switch
Says
Okay
That's
That
Office
On
The
Other
Side
Of
Town
So
What
It
Does
Is
Trunks
And
These
Days
The
Trunks
Are
All
Run
On
Fiber
Optic
Cable
In
The
Old
Days
They
Were
Analog
Either
Individual
Cable
Pairs
Or
They
Went
Over
Some
Sort
Of
Radio
Frequency
Carrier
System
But
These
Days
These
Are
All
Digital
Trunks
So
The
Switch
That
You're
Calling
From
Selects
A
Trunk
To
The
Other
Switch
And
Signals
The
Other
Switch
That
A
Call
Is
Coming
Through
On
And
Then
Control
The
Call
Is
Handed
Off
To
The
Other
Switch
The
Switch
On
The
Called
End
Then
Does
The
Same
Thing
That
Happened
When
You
Called
The
Person
On
Your
Same
Switch
It
Looks
At
The
Line
Sees
Whether
It's
Free
Rings
Or
Gives
It
Busy
And
What
It
Does
Connects
The
Audio
Path
To
Your
Trunk
Doesn't
Connect
The
Audio
Path
Of
The
Called
Line
To
Trunk
Yet
But
It
Does
Connect
The
Audio
Path
Inside
Of
It
To
Your
Trunk
So
It
Can
Send
You
Either
The
Ring
Or
The
Busy
Signal
What's
Supposed
To
Happen
In
Many
Cases
Is
That
Actually
Let
Let me
Just
I'll
Get
Into
That
When
I
Get
Into
What
SS7
Is
Shortly
But
It's
So
Easy
To
Get
Ahead
Of
Yourself
When
Describing
This
Thing
Because
Everything
Is
Just
Inter
Intertwined
And
Interworked
And
Relies
On
Everything
Else
But
I'm
Trying
To
Explain
As
Simply
As
I
Can
So
If
You
Make
A
Call
Say
All
The
Way
To
The
Other
Side
Of
Your
Metropolitan
Area
Like
Say
You're
In
Santa
Monica
And
You
Make
A
Call
All
The
Way
Out
To
Ontario
Or
Something
That's
What
Happens
Then
Is
There
Something
Called
A
Tandem
And
A
Tandem
Is
Basically
A
Switch
That
Connects
Telephone
Offices
Together
So
In
This
Case
Let's
See
Santa
Monica
And
Ontario
Are
Both
Former
GTE
Areas
Now
Verizon
So
I'm
Trying
To
Remember
Exactly
How
The
Call
Roots
The
Most
Basic
Way
That
It
Will
Root
Is
The
Office
In
Santa
Monica
And
The
Office
In
Ontario
Will
Not
Be
Connected
Directly
To
Each
Other
Because
They
Are
Not
In
Contiguous
Service
Are
They're
Both
Verizon
Areas
But
Running
Right
Through
The
Middle
Of
Them
Is
A
Huge
Chunk
Of
SBC
Territory
So
What
Will
Happen
Is
The
Office
In
Santa
Monica
The
End
Offices
You're
Calling
From
Will
Pick up
A
Trunk
To
The
Tandem
Office
Which
Is
Actually
Located
In
Downtown
Santa
Monica
It
Will
Signal
The
Tandem
Office
That
It
Wants
To
Make
A
Call
To
The
Ontario
Switch
The
Tandem
Office
Will
Then
Select
A
Trunk
I
Believe
The
Santa
Monica
Tandem
Office
Will
Either
Have
A
Direct
Trunk
To
The
Ontario
Switch
Or
Most
Likely
It
Will
Have
The
To
Ontario
Tandem
I'm
Not
Sure
Where
Exactly
The
Tandem
Is
I
Think
It's
Either
On
Ontario
Or
In
Rancho
Cucamonga
Somewhere
But
At
This
Point
The
Detail
Is
In
Contextual
And
I'm
Sure
One
Of
The
Guys
Who
Lives
Out
There
Will
Call
And
Correct
Me
Immediately
They'll
Be
Like
No
It
Was
Pacoima
Is
Nowhere
But
So
The
Tandem
Office
In
Santa
Monica
Will
Pick up
A
Trunk
To
The
Tandem
Office
In
Ontario
And
It'll
Say
Okay
Call
To
The
End
Office
Serving
The
Northern
Half
Of
Ontario
The
Tandem
Office
In
Ontario
Will
Pick up
A
Trunk
Call
To
That
End
Office
And
The
End
Office
Will
Do
The
Originating
Line
Thing
And
Once
The
Not
The
Originating
Do
The
Thing
Where
It
Checks
For
The
Status
Of
The
Called
Line
And
Again
At
This
Point
The
Audio
Pass
Is
Connected
From
The
Ontario
Switch
All
The
Way
Back
To
The
Santa
Monica
Switch
Through
All
Those
Tandems
From
One
End
Office
To
Another
And
The
Ontario
Switch
Again
Sends
The
Ring
Signal
Back
To
The
Santa
Monica
End
Office
Or
The
Busy
Signal
Back
To
Santa
Monica
End
Office
And
When
The
Called
Party
In
Ontario
Answers
The
Phone
And
Says
Hello
The
Audio
Path
Is
Complete
And
Hello
Gets
Transmitted
All
The
Way
Back
To
Santa
Monica
So
That's
Basic
Call
Routing
When
You
Go
Over
Inter
Exchange
Carriers
Say
You
Make
A
Long
Distance
Call
From
Los
Angeles
To
San
Francisco
What
Will
Happen
Is
For
The
Most
Part
The
End
Office
Switches
Will
Have
Direct
Connections
To
The
Long
Distance
Company
Switches
So
There
Are
Access
Tandems
In
Case
Those
Trunk
Groups
Are
Busy
But
For
The
Most
Part
They
Have
Direct
Connections
If
Say
You
Make
A
Call
Over
AT&T
So
You
Call
From
Los
Angeles
Somewhere
To
Say
Concord
California
In
The
East
Bay
So
You
Dial
925
685
1230
That's
The
Number
Served
Off
The
Concord
Switch
It's
A
College
In
Concord
And
There's
Nobody
There
At
This
Point
Last
I
Checked
That
On
Mitel
PBX
But
That
Might
Have
Changed
There
Anyway
Back
To
The
Main
Point
If
Your
Call
Is
Set
Up
To
Root
Over
AT&T
Say
You
Have
AT&T
As
Your
Long
Distance
Carrier
Your
End
Office
Switch
In
Los
Angeles
Will
Pick up
A
Direct
Trunk
To
The
AT&T
Switch
In
The
Downtown
Los
Angeles
Building
There's
Actually
Two
Of
Them
I'm
Not
Sure
Which
One
Is
Used
For
Which
Function
Or
In
Oakland
California
Which
Will
Then
Pick up
A
Trunk
To
The
Concord
Office
And
The
Signaling
Will
Be
Sent
To
The
Concord
Office
Will
Ring
The
Destination
Line
In
This
Case
That
Line
Is
Served
Off
Of
A
T1
Or
A
Primary
Rate
ISDN
Are
Basically
Technologies
That
The
Phone
Company
Uses
To
Deliver
Digital
Phone
Lines
Directly
To
A
Customer
As
Premises
When
They
Have
Need
More
Than
A
Few
Phone
Lines
They
Will
Deliver
One
Cable
Which
Carries
24
Phone
Lines
In
The
Case
Of
T1
Or
23
And
A
Signaling
Channel
In
The
Case
Of
Primary
Rate
ISDN
So
But
For
The
Most
Part
The
Status
Of
The
Line
Check
Is
For
The
Same
And
It
Will
Connect
You
To
The
Terminating
Line
And
Audio
Is
Passed
All
The
Way
Back
To
Your
Switch
And
That
Is
How
The
Call
Set
Up
So
There
Is
A
Signaling
Yeah
Pretty
Basic
Any
Questions
At
This
Point
No
I
Think
I'm
Doing
Pretty
Good
All
Right
Cool
So
There's
A
Way
That
The
Switches
Talk
To
Each
Other
Called
Signaling
System
Number
Seven
Or
SS
Seven
And
In
The
Old
Days
Before
SS
Seven
There
The
Switches
Used
In
Band
Signaling
Which
Sounded
A
Like
This
A
I'm sorry, the number you have reached is not in service or temporarily disconnected.
The number you have reached is not in service at this time.
This is a recording.
And what the switch would do is it would actually pick up the trunk to the next switch in the line
and literally supervise and send the number in the form of those tones.
Okay.
And, you know, this was kind of a weakness in the phone system
because it allowed phone freaks to actually control the network by using a blue box.
All you had to do was imitate the tones that it sent down the line,
and the switch on the receiving end would not be able to tell the difference between you
and the switch it normally talks to on that trunk.
Gotcha.
So, however, you know, now these days,
the signaling information is not carried on the phone line.
Touchtone, for example, is a way of in-band signaling.
You know, you press buttons,
and the tones actually get sent all the way down the line to the telephone company switch,
which then interprets those tones.
But in the case of call setup, I mean,
note how when you pick up the phone and you dial even a long-distance call,
it starts ringing almost immediately.
Yeah, it's because the phone switches now talk on this packet switch network kind of similar
to the way Internet protocol works, although it's in reality completely different.
But for, you know, basic purposes of understanding,
just imagine a separate packet switch network,
which is not the Internet and which is not the voice telephone network.
This is the SS7 network.
And what it does is it basically sends instructions down the line
and says, you know, to the next office, you know,
hey, set up a call on this trunk to this number.
So it's just more instant.
Yeah, well, it's faster.
You don't have to pick up the trunk, wink, and send tones.
You just send a packet, and the other switch, you know, deals with it almost immediately.
The call setup times are much faster.
So basically the, you know, for longer calls, for shorter inter-office calls,
and note that SS7 is only used for inter-office calls.
It's not used when you're making a call within the same switch.
But SS7 basically for, you know, short inter-office calls that only need to go from one office to the next,
you know, the switches will just talk directly via SS7.
And for longer calls where the call has to be set up over multiple networks and whatnot,
the SS7 call setup information will get passed from one switch to the next,
and they'll all send acknowledgement messages back as the call is set up.
I had a question for you, actually.
Yeah, yeah, ask away.
Okay.
This one seems kind of noobish, but you were talking about how, like, okay,
like when you're making the call, it sends, it looks at the receiving end
and see if there's, like, somebody on the line or not.
Mm-hmm.
So with VoIP, is there, like, can you, like, have more than one person, like, you know,
call you at the same time?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That, um, I'll get into that in a second.
But that's, you know, basically dependent on the end equipment.
Gotcha.
But, um.
Okay, yeah, because I was just reading, somebody asked me a question the other day about that,
and I was kind of clueless as to, they were wondering about multiple calls at the same time over at Line,
and I'm like, well, I don't know.
Oh, wasn't I asking you about this, too, for the radio show?
Oh, yeah, I think you were asking me about that.
Okay.
Anyway, I'll explain that.
So, yeah, okay, you can get to that in a second.
Because I had a question about that for, like, for me, because I want to set up an asterisk box.
Okay.
Yeah, no, totally.
Oh, now I remember where I was.
So, yeah.
So, the various switches in the connection will all send acknowledgement messages back as the call is set up.
And, in fact, what's really supposed to happen is, you know, if the call line is busy, you know,
regardless of how many links are in the chain, the call to office is supposed to just send a busy message back to your telephone line,
or not to your telephone line, to your switch.
And your local switch is supposed to give you the busy signal or the ring signal.
Gotcha.
Okay.
And, in fact, like on an ISDN phone, that'll happen.
You'll just hear the ringing from your actual telephone set itself,
because the phone has a similar out-of-band signaling connection to your switch.
So, you'll hear, if you're calling an ISDN line, you'll just hear, you know, the phone ringing in your actual phone,
not the ringing sound from the distant end office.
And a similar thing with VoIP, because VoIP, again, uses the kind of similar out-of-band signaling concepts.
So, I mean, obviously there are situations where this won't work.
Like, for example, there's this new thing where I think personally I think it's kind of dumb,
but you can subscribe to the service from your mobile phone carrier where you replace the sound of ringing with music or whatever.
And I think it's confusing.
I actually ran into this the other day, and I thought it had gone straight to voicemail, so I hung up.
And they called me back, and they said, hey, you called.
Why did you hang up immediately after calling?
I said, wait a second, that was ringing?
So, I think it's more.
Yeah, I was going to say, because I think my service has that.
Yeah, the only thing I would use to replace it with was just replace a standard, you know,
ESS-type ring with something, say, from maybe a number five crossbar or a step
or another old electromechanical switch, but I'm just weird like that,
and I don't think you can actually specify your own audio for that.
So, anyway, mobile phones, digital mobile phones, and VoIP also use similar out-of-band signaling protocols,
and they are different.
The main part of the SS7 VoIP network is the ISDN user part, which is ISUP.
Mobile phones, I think, use mobile telephone application part or mobile application part.
I forget which exactly, which part of the specification that is.
And VoIP phones use either SIP or H.323 or EECS, which are various VoIP signaling protocols.
But the basic ideas are the same.
You know, the call setup information is transmitted as data rather than as tones.
And so you have that question about multiple calls coming in at the same time on VoIP.
Again, yeah, that's, you know, kind of the same idea as call waiting.
You know, in the case of a peer-to-peer arrangement, you know, your telephone set will actually, you know,
not even peer-to-peer.
In the case of any VoIP call, the piece of equipment which is responsible,
the piece of equipment or the piece of software, actually, which is responsible for, you know, handling the call,
you know, when it's sitting idle, obviously it'll take the call and ring.
And then, you know, if the software is designed to have the ability to take more than one call at any given time,
if a second call comes in, then it'll function very similar, you know, to the user to the way call waiting works.
You know, it'll say, you know, oh, okay, yeah, this call is being set up.
I'm ringing the phone.
Please hold.
And if it's not, it'll just send back a busy message.
How about the software?
Is it easily customizable?
Can you, like, go in and customize it for your needs?
Well, I think it depends on the package.
I mean, as far as going in and customizing from user-level control panel options,
is that depends on the package.
And as far as actually rewriting it, I mean, but honestly, if you're using a SIP client
that doesn't do more than one call at a time and you're considering rewriting it,
I would probably suggest that you go find a different SIP client
because I think most of them do handle more than one call at any given time.
Awesome.
Okay.
What's actually kind of interesting is a lot of times, like, one thing I find quite useful,
mobile phones served out of five ESS will often do this thing where when you call them,
you'll know if the call party is on another call already while it's ringing.
Instead of hearing, you'll hear something like this.
Yeah, I was just going to mention, because, like, I'm on a five ESS.
You have a mobile phone?
Yes.
And so, like, I can tell, like, when there's somebody on the other line.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, because you have a slightly different ring.
And I think that's an awesome feature.
I wish that were the case on all telephones, but I guess I can't have my way all the time.
So that's basically how SS7 works.
It sends, you know, call setup messages and says, you know, hey, here's the number that's being called.
Here's the number that's calling this number.
Here's the number that the call is being billed to.
Here's the forwarding number if this call is being forwarded.
And so on.
And, you know, the actual SS7 specification is, you know, hundreds of pages long.
And there are, you know, there are messages for every conceivable possibility.
And there's, you know, there's different types of messages.
Again, there's numbers.
There's the class of service of the originating lines.
So they switch and tell whether you're calling from a pay phone or a mobile phone or a house phone or a hotel phone or anything.
And those are called A and I, I, I digits.
And so, I mean, there's just tons and tons of information that can be sent.
Not all of it is sent all the time.
But there certainly is written into the specification, you know, messages for almost every eventual possibility.
So to the next query from the forum.
Merck says, it would be cool if you did something on the internals of asterisk
and PBXs in general.
Well, that's a good question.
Because I had some questions the other day about this, too.
Because we were sending, like, I was talking to you about wanting to set up a asterisk box for Geek Love Radio.
And how we would go about that.
And, like, what, I mean, like, how easy is it, you know?
And, like.
Right.
Well, I mean, I'm not, and he continues the question,
and internals of different exchange systems such as the Lucent 5 ESS.
Oh.
So, yeah.
Way more deeper in depth than that.
Yeah.
Well, I'm not really sure what he means by internals.
Does he mean the software that runs them?
Does he mean the actual switching matrix itself?
Or switching matrix itself?
So, I'll just try and answer both possibilities.
As far as the switching matrix itself goes,
the way time division switching works is that, okay, all audio on the phone network these days is digital PCM.
It's a MULA PCM, and it's 8,000 samples a second, and it's 8 bits wide, and it's companded using something called MULA companding,
which basically uses a logarithmic scale to encode the amplitude of the waveform at that specific point.
And so, by using a logarithmic scale, you get more resolution at the lower amplitudes where the majority of human voice energy actually is.
So, you get what sounds like 16-bit audio.
But as you get to the higher amplitudes, you know, when people are shouting into the phone,
then you lose resolution that sounds closer to 8-bit audio.
But it's a neat little trick that gives you the impression of 16-bit audio on an 8-bit connection.
And that's what we're talking on right now is MULAW.
Sweet.
So, at 8,000 samples a second, you know, it's 8-bit PCM 8,000, which is 64 kilobits a second,
which is the standard bandwidth of any, you know, telephone trunk.
Yeah.
And which explains why you can't get more than 56 kilobits a second on a modem,
because I forget the exact specific explanation,
but it has to do with the fact that you lose a certain amount of bandwidth by going to tones
and then going back from tones and being on analog lines.
So, you can only guarantee up to 56 kilobits a second.
But I digress.
Anyway, so your voice is chopped up into little, you know, bits of 8-bit data,
little individual bits of data at any given time.
And a T1 basically, you know, transmits 24 8-bit frames in one go plus a framing bit.
So, you get 193 bits at 8,000 times a second, which gives you 1.544 megabits a second,
which is the bandwidth of a T1.
So, it just loops through all of these.
And so, it does something called time division.
So, in one 1-8,000th of a second, it actually transmits sequentially all 24 samples.
So, that's given time.
And so, you know, so if you're in time slot 13, you know, whatever the switch is listening for is, you know,
time slot 13, 13, 13, as it comes back again and again and again and again and again.
So, the internal switching matrix of a DMS100, and I believe the 5ESS is the same as well, is kind of similar.
It's, again, time division switching matrix similar to a T1.
But instead of 24, it has 32 channels.
And they can, you know, repeat this as needed based on the capacity of the switch.
But the basic module of this has 32 channels.
And for the most part, it's just the same.
What happens is, you know, there are various time slots.
And I forget whether there are, I think one of two things happens.
Either, you know, say you're making that intra-office call to your neighbor.
Either you two get connected to the same time slot in the switching matrix.
Or you get connected to one time slot, and your neighbor gets connected to a different time slot.
Say you're on 8, she's on 25.
And then those two are connected together internally in the switch.
Either way, basically, you know, you've got just this band of data going by that the computer is processing.
And you only get to hear the bits which are pertinent to your conversation.
And I believe asterisk is TDM internally as well as time division.
It's not VoIP internally.
So all the switching is TDM.
But basically, very basically, that's how that works.
Now, as far as, you know, the internal software of the various systems,
they couldn't be more different from one another.
If you're a wizard asterisk, you will have no idea how to use DMS.
And if you're a wizard with DMS, you'll have no idea how to use a 5ESS because, you know,
the interfaces are totally different.
But as far as actually programming the DMS and the 5ESS, you know,
these are, for the most part, technologies which came about in the late 70s, early 80s.
So you can still administer them from a VT100.
It's all, you know, typed commands.
And it's all pretty much just keyboard-based.
There is no graphical user interface for a DMS or a 5ESS.
In fact, the 5E, if I remember correctly, runs a specific variant of Unix.
Gotcha.
Which helps explain why Unix is so stable, because it was designed for telephony environments.
But, of course, of course.
Thank you, Bell Telephone Laboratories Incorporated.
All right.
So, let's see if there's anyone on...
No, no one's in the queue.
I guess no one wants to call in.
I'm sure this would be far more successful if we actually did the show live.
So, if you guys out there have any questions or comments about the way the call-in thing should work
or the way you'd like it to work or whatnot, just mail it on in, and we'll take it under consideration.
So, Right Coast sent an email in response to my query for comments.
He says,
Greetings, Strom.
I had to burp there for a second.
Right Coast sent an email, and he says,
Greetings, Strom.
Google...
Hey, what'd you know?
It's another Google email.
Google has always been a company whose initial forays into a technology only foreshadow grander plans.
Tudor...
Tudor ratio, Softpedia Tech Editor writes,
It's more than likely that Google Talk won't stop here,
its goal being more than just PC-to-PC communications.
Just as three months ago, we were 90% sure that Google will launch an IM client.
Today, we can say with confidence that in less than three months, Google Talk will be integrated with cellular telephony.
So, that's the quote.
And then Right Coast continues on.
I would love to hear your guys' collective thoughts on what that means and explain in greater detail its possible effects.
Not in a Google-owns-the-world kind of way.
I would like to hear the impact of that on our current communications and telephony model.
Whether Google refines and implements the idea in a generally accepted way, or another company does,
how would that affect consumers, companies, and our current communications model in the short and long term?
Regards, Right Coast.
And there actually was another question, which I'm going to read back here and roll into this.
This is from Magnum IP on the forums.
I love that handle.
I love the wordplay in the handle, Magnum IP.
We had a contest to find this guy a new handle, and Magnum IP was the winner.
I didn't suggest it, but I love it.
Anyway, he writes, I would like to know the impact Verizon's Fios is going to have on landlines.
To be more precise, what is the good-slash-bad points of copper and fiber optics?
For those of you who don't know, Fios is a new service Verizon is offering where they actually bring fiber optic cable to your premises,
to your house, or to your apartment building, or whatever.
And this has actually kind of been the wet dream of telephony experts for 25 years now.
I recall reading a book about the Bell system that was written in 1978 and 1979.
And they were hot on the trail of fiber to a premises, even then.
But just for telephony, it doesn't quite work.
But for data and telephony, it's really intriguing.
Because with fiber, you can get a lot more band without a fiber than you can out of a DSL connection.
But my DSL connection that I'm talking to you on right now is 6 megabit down, 608 kilobit per second up.
And what Verizon's Fios is, it's like 15 megabit down and I think 5 megabit up or 3 megabit up or something like that.
And that's a fraction of what a fiber optic cable can carry.
You know, if you look at the optical carrier systems that the telephone networks use for their internal trunking over fiber,
you know, on one fiber pair, you can have, you know, easily, you know, 54 megabits a second for a, sorry, 45 megabits a second for a DS3.
Let me, let me pull up the page I have that lists all the capacities, because I don't know these off the top of my head.
All right, on a single fiber pair, you know, an OC3 is 126 megabits a second.
And you can even do, you know, up to OC192, which is 8,064 megabits a second.
And they've got OC768 now, which is, you know, many times 192.
And you can even multiplex OC whatever's onto fiber.
You can use something called wavelength division multiplexing, which puts each different circuit at a different wavelength on the same fiber.
And then you have something at the other end, which decodes the different wavelengths and splits them all out.
But the capacity of fiber is just absolutely mind-boggling.
So what Verizon is offering now to its consumers is, you know, like kind of throwing a toothpick into a volcano as far as bandwidth is concerned.
So, you know, but what impact this will have is, you know, the main barrier to the deployment of VoIP as a replacement for standard copper, you know, copper telephone lines
has been bandwidth and latency.
Most standard cable modem connections are 1.5 megabits down and 128 kilobits a second up.
And that goes the same for most standard low-end DSL.
And, you know, that will handle reliably one single call at regular telephone network quality,
assuming you don't do much else with your DSL at that moment.
You know, you can have something check in email, you can do some, like, web serving, but the minute you start downloading something,
your call is just totally useless as far as talking on.
So what will happen once, you know, higher bandwidth DSL becomes norm and, you know,
and once fiber starts displacing copper to the premises is that you're actually going to see copper telephone lines start to slowly become a thing of the past.
I'm pretty sure that there will at some point in the not-too-distant future be a time where you won't be able to order a copper telephone line anymore.
You'll have to order fiber and then run VoIP over it.
You know, copper telephone lines will remain as a grandfather's service, but for all new service,
you're going to have to order fiber and run VoIP over that.
And even if you don't run VoIP over it, you know, the phone company can easily provision a data circuit and a phone circuit on the same piece of fiber.
You know, it's a straight time division phone circuit versus having VoIPs all the way out to your premises.
But even so, the telephone network is actually going to change dramatically in the next 10 to 15 years.
Right now, it's for the most part all time division.
You know, all the switches operate on a time division matrix and all the circuits between them are, you know,
channelized DS1s and DS3s with individual channels for individual phone calls.
But since the majority of traffic going over the network these days is actually data,
it makes more sense for the phone companies to transition their networks to be from – or where was I going with this?
It's easier for the – it makes more sense, you know, logically, network-wise,
for the phone companies to abandon their time division networks and move to packet switch networks
and basically run IP on their networks.
And if done correctly, an IP phone call sounds absolutely no different from a standard time division phone call.
As long as you've got enough bandwidth and low enough latency to throw at it, then it should sound exactly the same.
Okay.
And so, you know, what will happen basically is that the phone companies will, again,
eventually stop offering standard wireline telephone service.
You'll just have VoIP out to your premises.
And from there, you know, they'll probably give you a terminal adapter that gives you an Ethernet connection
and, you know, an analog phone connection for your existing phones.
And then as analog phones become a thing of the past and we have, you know, VoIP phones all over the place,
they'll just, you know, you'll have one network on your – at your premises that you plug all your computers
and your telephones into and telephony will basically become another application delivered over IP.
Okay.
Now I can see how this can become, like, useful.
But, like, say, for instance, like, okay, here in Iowa where, like, VoIP is barely, you know, showing up.
Mm-hmm.
Like, and just – to be honest, there's, like, areas in Iowa just that don't even –
they don't have phones or, like, barely just got phones.
Mm-hmm.
And, like, I mean, it's just not Iowa.
There's, like, places, like, all around the country, you know, that, like, some areas are just, like, so not –
I mean, who's going to want running cable out to, like, the middle of a field, like, where there's nothing for 200 acres
or, like, miles or whatever, you know?
Like, how practical is it going to be for that?
And, like, and so is it – like, how is it going to affect that?
Well, I mean, for some areas, obviously, you know, that either there isn't enough demand for data
or, you know, it's too expensive to run fiber out to the premises.
You know, well, see, the thing about running fiber is, for the most part,
it costs about the same as running copper.
In fact, it may be cheaper because you can, you know, you can run fiber –
I'm saying, assume you run a fiber cable and a copper cable of the same, you know, diameter.
The cost as far as, you know, labor is going to be the same.
And, you know, labor ends up being the main cost component of running this stuff,
not the actual materials themselves.
So, you know, there are, you know, rural places where –
sure, they don't have phones, but there are rural places where they do have telephones.
And it's exactly the same.
They can, you know – the good thing about fiber is that it doesn't suffer the problems,
you know, the length limits that copper does.
With copper, you can only have a loop of a certain length.
You can only – you know, you can put load coils on it and get it, you know,
and extend the range of the copper.
But – and that's totally analog, and that destroys your ability to have any sort of data service on that loop.
But for voice service, you know, you can get that copper loop, you know,
going a considerable amount of distance.
Obviously, you can't extend it forever.
But you can extend it, you know, several miles beyond what it would normally handle.
And the nice thing about fiber is you only need to – all you need to do is put a repeater along the line
every, you know, 15 to 30 miles, I think.
I think it might even be more depending on the type of equipment used.
But, you know, just as long as you have those little repeaters,
you can really – you can easily have someone on one side of the county being served out of a switch
on the complete other end of the county, you know, and if you have a total – a complete fiber connection
out to their premises, it's not going to be any different from someone who served out of a – you know,
served across the street from the switch.
So, in fact, the – once fiber becomes the de facto method of delivering telephony
and data services to customers, it'll be, you know, more reasonable to run, you know, services out to the consumers
way out in the sticks.
Yeah.
I was going to say, because, like, I mean, half – I mean, there's people that I know that are, like,
barely getting internet, you know.
And so, I mean, like, I could see how things – I mean, obviously, things are going to move along faster, you know,
where there's more people and the need for it.
But I was just, like – I guess, like, just wondering, like, cost-wise, you know,
and just, like, I guess how it would affect – but –
Well, yeah, I think cost-wise, you know, copper and fiber – fiber is – I'm not really sure
what's more expensive these days.
You know, I think on a per-foot basis, probably – copper is probably a lot cheaper than fiber.
But considering that, you know, on one strand of fiber, you can run, you know, 8, 16, 24,000 telephone calls,
sorry, on one fiber, on an OC192, you can run 129,000 telephone calls.
You know, and that's just one OC192.
So on one single fiber pair, you can run a hell of a lot more than you can on any copper cable
you could possibly dream of.
Oh, yeah.
So it's a really, really, really thick copper cable.
So per actual physical foot, I think fiber is more expensive.
But as far as, you know, utilization per foot, the cost of fiber is a lot less.
That's why, you know, pretty much every long-distance – every part of the long-distance network these days
and every part of the inter-exchange network these days is fiber rather than copper.
So the cost of delivering high-bandwidth data services to consumers is going to go down as well.
I mean, look at Verizon Fios.
The cost of getting, you know, a DS3 is thousands of dollars a month,
and the cost of getting Verizon consumer fiber to the prem is, you know, 50 bucks a month.
The only downside of this, of course, is you need to have electricity at both ends,
whereas, you know, with a copper phone line, you have the electricity to run the phone
is delivered from the phone company.
So that's the only downside, you know.
And there are ways to screw it up.
In Las Vegas, where I used to live, there was fiber to the curb.
Yeah, fiber to the curb delivered by Sprint.
And they had just done some really asinine things with the way they provisioned it.
It was bit robbed.
It wasn't, you know, full 64 kilobits a second.
So you have this kind of whining noise in the background.
And that's basically, they can do that on a DS0.
They insert a, they use every, you know, one bit every certain number of frames
to indicate whether you're on or off hook.
And that is called bit robbing.
That gives you only 56 kilobits a second versus 64.
And it can make, you know, make it sound worse.
But if you're, you know, you're running all data
and you're doing all VoIP out to the consumer,
then you can do full 64 kilobits a second.
You can even do more.
You can do wider bandwidth.
You can do 128 kilobits a second.
You can do 30, you know, 16-bit audio at, you know, 16,000 hertz, 24,000 hertz.
You know, it'll sound amazing, but it'll use up a lot of bandwidth.
But again, if you've got the bandwidth to throw at it,
then it'll sound wonderful.
So going back to the question that was asked about Google, you know,
how will this change, how will, you know,
Google VoIP's ability to do peer-to-peer phone calls change the telephony market?
I honestly don't think it's going to have that huge of an impact
because, you know, for the most part, you know, you've got, you know,
you've got to chat with a person and say, hey, do you want to set up a phone call now?
And they have to be sitting there, and they have to say, oh, okay.
Then you have to set up the phone call.
They have to acknowledge and whatnot.
Whereas, you know, with a telephone, you just dial the number regardless of what's there,
and you can leave them a voicemail.
And I think, honestly, from a human factors point of view,
the telephone makes more sense simply because you pick up the phone,
you dial a 10-digit number, and you're talking to the other party.
And whereas Google VoIP, you know, you've got, instead of a handset,
you've just got your own microphone and speakers.
And that leads to echo problems, and, you know, most, a lot of people don't have,
you know, the correct setup for VoIP, and, you know, it can be a pain.
So I don't think, honestly, that the fact that Google VoIP has,
we're kind of getting close to the end, so.
I don't think the fact that Google VoIP has a peer-to-peer thing built into it
in and of itself is going to be that detrimental to the telephone industry.
But, you know, I think it'll raise awareness of VoIP, sure.
But, you know, there's Skype, and Skype isn't making that many inroads
into the phone industry.
You know, what's really going to do it is Asterisk and the other services
where they actually give you a real telephone.
Yeah.
Or at least some simulation thereof, you know,
a terminal adapter where you plug in a real telephone.
Mm-hmm.
So that's what's going to happen there.
But as far as Google Talk on cell phones,
you know, we have instant messaging on mobile phones already.
That's nothing new.
It's just a different platform.
VoIP on mobile phones is going to be a considerably different story
because mobile phones don't give you really enough bandwidth
to do any sort of reasonable VoIP.
You can do compressed VoIP.
You know, you can do G.739.
You can do GSM.
But, you know, if your phone already does GSM natively,
it doesn't make a difference.
And also, GPRS bandwidth, you know,
tends to be expensive for mobile phone companies.
There are unlimited plans you can get, like, from T-Mobile for the Sidekick.
But, I mean, for the most part, you pay per kilobyte with GPRS.
And for VoIP, that's just not going to fly.
And, I mean, it would be great to be able to do VoIP
from my mobile phone to my asterisk box
and do pure 64 kilobit a second MULA
from my mobile phone to my asterisk box.
And that may eventually happen someday
when they are able to throw more bandwidth in the air
at mobile phone consumers.
But, for the time being,
I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.
What are your thoughts?
I have a question.
Sure.
Okay, so, um...
Oh, never mind, actually.
All right.
That's all right.
I can ask you some other time.
Well, I mean, if it's a question
that the audience might find useful,
then go ahead and ask it.
No, I'm sorry.
I'll post it in the forums and stuff.
It'll bring up some good topics to talk about.
You sure?
Yeah.
Well, ask me the question anyway.
We can edit it out if you don't like it.
Well, I was just going to ask you
about, like, the 5ESS,
because you were saying, like,
just the...
Like, you were saying how
one line of fiber can hold, like,
I forget how many,
like, different lines.
How many did you say?
Oh, 126,000 phone lines.
126,000.
Like, how about, then, like,
with...
With, like, the copper.
Like, what's...
I mean, like, total...
Total bandwidth on copper?
Yeah.
From the switch out
to the subscriber's premises, or...
Yeah.
Well, okay,
because, like,
I'm reading right now online.
Mm-hmm.
It says,
it says,
today's 5ESS is jam-packed with modules
that can make switching easy enough
for any printer monkey to run.
This is, like, a...
just a transcript
if there's some guy talking.
And it says,
this is just easy to maintain.
It can hold up to around
200,000 lines
in an office
and roughly around
94,000 trunks.
Mm-hmm.
I don't know.
I guess I was just confused.
Oh, no, no, no.
So, what is your question?
Well, I was wondering, like,
so, what's with the 200,000 lines
and with the 5ESS?
Oh, okay.
The actual capacity
of the internal switching matrix
of the 5ESS itself
maxes out
at about 200,000 lines.
Beyond 200,000 lines,
you have to actually put
more than one 5ESS
in the building
to handle all those subscribers.
Gotcha.
All right.
So, it's actually internal.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
That makes more sense.
Okay, because I'm, like,
sitting here reading
about, like, the 5ESS
and I'm like, huh.
I'm like, wait a minute.
So, like,
that totally answered my question.
I just didn't know
that it was internal
that they were talking about.
Okay.
Well, yeah, no, I mean,
each individual trunking technology
has a certain capacity
for simultaneous calls
and then, you know,
each switch will have
its own maximum capacity
for telephone calls.
Gotcha.
Okay.
That makes more sense.
And when they say
96,000 trunks there,
they say 96,000
actual individual circuits
on, you know,
telephone lines
between offices.
So, 96,000, you know,
different simultaneous calls
that can be set up
to different offices
at any given time.
Okay.
And that's the maximum capacity.
In practice,
they never fill those out.
But in theory,
that's the most
that they can handle.
Well, that totally
clears up everything then.
Cool.
All right.
I think we have,
we've hit our time limit.
So, let's,
let's see.
There are no announcements.
Well, let's see.
Announcements this week.
Again,
questions or comments
on the call-in format.
We are,
just for a certain announcement,
I'm sort of planning
on trying to,
at some point,
in the not terribly distant future,
do the show live
instead of prerecorded
so you guys can call in
and, you know,
we can make the show
more dynamic.
So, that'll,
that'll, I'm sure,
make you happy.
But if you've got
any questions
or comments about that
or anything we've talked
about today,
give us a call.
We have the
BINREV voicemail line,
213-415-1047.
Again,
213-415-1047.
And the,
the BINREV radio email address
which is radio
at BINREV.com.
So,
send us your comments,
your questions,
and so on.
Any shouts you'd like
to make,
Sub-Zero?
No,
I haven't announced it
though,
I guess.
Okay.
Kind of an announcement.
Next week,
or September 5th,
I guess,
a week from tomorrow.
I guess it'll be next week
for everybody listening.
Geek Love Radio starts.
Our season two of
Geek Love Radio is
going to happen.
Unreal.
We're pretty pumped
about that.
Oh, cool.
Because we have a lot
of projects that we've
worked on all summer.
And we have a lot more
stuff that we've done.
Right now,
if you go to the site,
it's until September 5th.
And during the show,
we're going to do
a live update of our site.
We have a new website,
new design.
We have a whole new,
we have,
I can't even like
start to begin
like to talk about
the many different projects
that we've worked on.
So,
everybody needs to go
check that out sometime.
And that's about it.
Very cool.
Yeah.
Shouts,
I guess I'll give a shout
to Post Pathos
who sent in the music
for the music review.
If you guys have music
that you want me to review,
you're a songwriter,
you're a band,
whatever,
send it in.
For the time being,
use stromcarlson
at gmail.com
or contact
radio at binrev.com
and we'll
get in touch with you
and
I'll review your music.
As always,
again,
email us
at radio at binrev.com.
Any
shout
you'd like to make?
I'll shout out
my roommate,
DJ Mollusk,
and
I'm going to
shout out Droops.
That's about it.
Cool.
And shouts to,
I forget who
picked the handle,
but whoever picked
Magnum IP
as the handle
for Magnum IP.
That's totally awesome.
So,
shouts to him.
Great handle,
yeah.
Yeah,
I love it.
Anyway,
side of the week
is Post Pathos.
You can download
your music,
geocities.com
slash post underscore
pathos.
And our
closing music
this week
is Post Pathos,
Waste Matter.
Actually,
later on we'll talk,
but I have
something actually
that you can
help us with.
Oh?
Yeah,
we'll talk though.
It'll be part of
the unveiling of
everything
on September 5th.
Oh,
cool.
Well,
the mysteries,
Suspense,
tune in to
Geek Love Radio
and find out
what's going on
because I don't
know what's
going on right now.
Ah,
nobody does.
Cool.
Well,
anyway,
see you next week.
Same hack time.
Same hack channel.
Take care.
fellow.
See the world at sea
Come and taste it
Won't let me think
You feel like a kid
Touching angels
Won't feel the pain
Of her mistake
Only the girl beats you, baby
Are you feeling on the dance floor
Face down
Drop the water
Cause we put you back together
Are you feeling on the
With the safe and sense
I can't believe they'll
Left you lying there forever
Exclamations and cheers
And nevertheless
Won't you roll
With the rolling made
Won't you roll
You said
Won't you roll
See the world at sea
Come and taste it
Won't you think
You feel like a kid
Teating angels
Won't you feel the pain
Or hurt
Or stay
Only the drum beats, baby
I told your father
That I loved you, Jamie
I can't forget how we were
Crying there together
I'm sure that Molly said
I love you, Jamie
But that won't stop me now
From the scene forever
What would you feel it
On the dance floor
Face down
All these horses
Couldn't put your heart together
What would you feel it
On the way to St. Vincent's
I can't believe you
What would you feel it
When they're there and so forever
We got solution
And cheers
And never
Shots
Won't you roll
She's rolling
And rolling
She won't
She's rolling
And rolling
But you won't
She's rolling
And rolling
She's
Won't you
Please stop
Hear me
Number five
You said
You're looking for me
The signs against you
Till I lost my brother
It's hard to see
But you're feeling
On the dance floor
Face down
All these horses
Couldn't put you
Back together
What was with you
On your way to St. Vincent's
The deal is dying
Now we're missing you forever
She'll pay your mother
Back and cheer
This never
Enough
It's hard to see
Thank you.