WEBVTT

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This is dedicated to all the hackers and the crackers, to the hackers and the crackers.

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I see in binary, I speak source code, step on my toes, I'll post a million game pegs

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of you in a fag bone, in your digital stance, getting firewalled ho, cause I'm riding the

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net in my six foe.

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I was a dick with my 56, now with my cable I'm able to get that stable, on the out, my

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name is Ace and I'm a Leo, on the digital highway, my name is Neo and I'm a hero, in a flash

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I'll screw you on burning dream cats, you need some ISO, let me through my hard drive

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rifle, our exchange you could never stifle, and a digital hug, you just caught the love

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bug, I bootlegged your CD, I caused a fight between Un and Jay-Z, your CG, it's all gonna

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be free, whether we take it by force or we take it nicely, you feel that rattling your

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bones, when I tell you we just hacked out Jones, and NASDAQ leaves you flat on your

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back, cause I am he who loves to hack and crack, cause I am he who loves to hack and

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crack, this is dedicated to the hackers and the crackers, serial codes, source codes, ISOs,

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RAM, SIF, SIS, this is dedicated to the hackers and the crackers.

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That's right, I'm back on Binary Revolution Radio episode number 148, I am Stank Dog, today

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is May 16th, 2006, and I am here wrapping up season 3 of Binary Revolution Radio, coming

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back to take over for a few episodes and see if I can still pull this off.

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So far, I don't know how it's going, but we'll see if we can pick it up with this episode

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with a returning friend of the show, someone who always, gosh, we go into an hour conversation

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before the show and I always learn something from, and that is of course Desius, our good

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friend from over at memestreams.net is back on the show with us, welcome my friend.

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How's it going?

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Going pretty good, going pretty good, I guess we'll find out at the end of the episode

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here because this is going to be a pretty, a pretty, see the thing about the main topic

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today and the main topic we're going to do is rainbow tables, is a very mathematically

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challenging, is that a good way to put it?

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It's extremely technical, but I think that there's a lot of people in the scene who, you

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know, they just, they think it's cool to have these tools and try to, you know, they think

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it's fun to break into stuff and, you know, I think that really what it's about is understanding

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how, understanding why things work as opposed to, you know, simply being able to do them

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or to run some program and so I think that, you know, this is a challenging topic perhaps,

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but it's interesting at the same time and, you know, the whole point of this stuff is

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to really delve into sort of deep technical subjects and kind of really understand them,

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so I think it's good.

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And we're going to do that, we're going to actually get into a little bit of the math

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on here and by the way, that description you just gave, that's, you know, that's what

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separates a hacker from a script kitty is using a tool and knowing how a tool works and knowing

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what a tool is doing, but I digress on that subject.

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So, yeah, we are actually going to touch on the math a little bit because I got a little

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bit of it from reading a lot of these papers.

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This is pretty complex stuff and that's why I thought you'd be the perfect person to come

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on the show and help us out with this, so that's going to be our main topic later on.

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Oh, and I should also thank you up front, anybody who's ordered magazines lately has noticed

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that they got some extra stickers in there, they got the Industrial Mimetics stickers donated

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by memestreams.net, if you're not already checking out that site, you are missing out,

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so go check that out and if you're ordering magazines or if you bump into me at a BinRev

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meeting or something along those lines, we've been handing those out there as well.

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So, decorate your laptops up with some stickers and you'll be cool.

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It's that easy, I mean people don't realize it's just that easy to be cool, put an Industrial

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Mimetics sticker on your laptop, instant coolness.

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All the girls will want to talk to you.

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And people are busy shopping at Hot Tropic, is that the name of the place, Hot Tropic?

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Man, it's not punk if there's a franchise fee.

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Exactly.

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It's like getting a dead Kennedy's toy with your Happy Meal.

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You get a temporary tattoo kit.

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Anyway, on that note, I guess we will go into some email.

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And our first email this week comes from Eggman.

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Eggman says, Hey Black.

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Of course, he's referring to Black Ratchet, who has been hosting the show for Season 3.

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Shouts out to him again for doing a great job.

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Heard you and Stank talking about having Prawn on the bus via EVDO and thought you might get

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a kick out of this.

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And he sends a link.

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I will put this in the show notes.

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I did not tiny URL it because, yeah, it's been a while and I guess I suck at this job now.

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In the old days, I would tiny URL that out.

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But anyway, basically the Hawaiian bus system has started testing the usage of Wi-Fi on the

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bus as a public service.

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Nice service, powered by Sprint, so I assume it runs over EVDO.

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I did a speed test and got around 300 kbps.

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Anyway, nice show and asked Stank not to yell like that.

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I do have neighbors.

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Well, fuck your couch, first of all.

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Fuck your neighbors.

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EVDO, 300 kbps, that sounds accurate.

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That is the kind of download speed you're going to get.

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I'm interested to know how this works as far as how they're aiming this at the bus.

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How is this thing stuck to the bus?

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What's to stop somebody from, I mean, if you're at the bus stop, can you get these signals?

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Or even just on the, I mean, how are they targeting these kind of things?

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Are they putting antennas in the bus?

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I really don't know enough about this, but I find it interesting.

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I think that might be the case.

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I know that a couple of the Silicon Valley companies, they run buses up to San Francisco

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to pick people up to go to work because TREF is terrible there.

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And they'll have, you know, a cellular connection in the bus,

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and they'll have a Wi-Fi, you know, card, you know, in the bus.

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And so people in the bus can connect to the wireless card in the bus

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and use the Internet via the cellular link.

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Well, what's in it for the cell phone companies?

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Why is the cell phone company doing this?

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The cell phone companies don't like it at all.

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Oh, wow.

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They were initially pretty unhappy about it.

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But, you know, perhaps, you know, in this case, they've finally gotten the clue

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and decided that, you know, if they don't deploy this sort of service,

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that someone else will.

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So I'm sure they're getting, in this case, these are municipal buses.

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I'm sure that the city is paying for them.

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Yeah, they're certainly getting money from somebody.

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They're not going to do it, you know, for free.

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They're not going to donate it.

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But is there enough infrastructure in place with the cell phone towers to do this, though?

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I mean, like, I guess on city buses, you're talking about a fairly small population of people still,

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quite honestly.

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There's not many people on a bus at any given time,

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and maybe one of them, if any, is using it, one or two of them using it.

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So it's probably not a huge traffic load compared to their regular customers that have EVDO cell phones.

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But at some point, I mean, is EVDO an option?

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And they're totally going kind of way away from this email.

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Is EVDO, you think, a good option to cover, like, a city to offer free?

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Because I know Philadelphia, I think, was one I read about in several communities

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that are trying to cover the city with free access to the Internet.

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Most of them I read about are Wi-Fi.

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Do you think EVDO or something along those lines might be better?

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Well, I mean, I think that Wi-Fi is the best option right now as a sort of, you know,

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way to connect directly to people's laptops.

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But don't backhaul it with Wi-Fi.

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You can, but it's a lot of work.

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Excuse me.

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You can do sort of directional antenna and backhaul it with Wi-Fi,

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but it makes more sense to backhaul it with something else.

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I worked on a really interesting project a few years ago where we were looking at doing dense urban areas

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where we did 802.11b as the connection to people's laptops,

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and we had these devices on the roofs of buildings in the city,

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and the devices themselves interconnected in a mesh using 802.11a.

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Now you've got g, which gives you the speed of a on the frequency range of b.

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And so things have changed a little bit.

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But when we were working on this project, you know, b was, you know,

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b is like 11 megabits per second, and a is something like, you know,

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between 20 and 40 megabits per second depending upon how you have it configured.

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So, you know, you could backhaul, you could build this sort of backbone between all these little 802.11b

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b access points using 802.11a links that had more bandwidth.

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And so I think that that's what makes sense.

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You want to, maybe it's not 802.11a, maybe it's, you know, eVideo or Edge or something else

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that you're using in the back end that's providing service through a little box

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that essentially acts as a, you know, as a wireless access point and has an 802.11b card in it.

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Hmm. Yeah, I guess that's true.

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You could chain the technologies together in an interesting way, I guess.

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What about, I tell you what, when I went up to Atlanta for InterZone a couple months ago,

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there was TV, somehow TV was being streamed to the, I guess, trains or subway cars,

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I don't know what you refer to them there, the MARTA cars.

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There was actually a TV signal being fed to those,

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and I found that interesting of how that was being done,

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and I didn't even think about checking for a wireless signal in there.

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I don't think they have them.

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I don't know how they're pumping the TV to the trains either.

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I'm not sure what they did there.

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Yeah, that could be interesting there.

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I noticed it, of course, when I first got on there.

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I found it interesting, and especially when we were going through tunnels

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and I was still, the signal didn't disappear completely

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when we went underground or went under a building or anything like that.

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So, had me wonder about that.

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Was it real-time TV? Were you getting the news?

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Yeah, I think it was, I don't remember what channel.

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It was fixed on some news channel, though.

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I don't remember if it was local or if it was a CNN.

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Yeah, I don't remember too much, honestly.

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Yeah, I'm not sure.

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There's a couple companies that have popped up that are, you know,

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sort of, they've got technology that's specifically designed for trains

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to offer that kind of stuff, but I'm not exactly sure what they do.

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Well, and I find all of those interesting.

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Even, you know, a lot of the, well, not a lot.

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A few of the plane airline companies are putting that on their planes.

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I know Song, when I had my Song flight to Vegas last year for DEF CON,

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that they had the TVs in the back of the plane,

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and it was, I think it was powered by, I want to say, Dish Network,

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or one of the, maybe it was DirecTV, I don't remember.

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But, you know, I find that very interesting.

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I mean, obviously they track the planes in the air, so they know where they're at,

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but it still seems like a stretch to beam the signal to a terrestrial tower

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and then back up to a plane.

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Was the TV really real time?

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It was, well, I'm sure there was some kind of lag or delay,

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but I can't really compare it to anything, obviously.

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But, no, it was like, you know, it was, I was watching news.

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It wasn't coming off the videotape.

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No, I was watching news that was from that day or from that hour.

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I mean, it was recent, up-to-date stuff.

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It was not recorded.

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You know, one thing they might be doing is, they might be hauling, you know,

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they'll transmit, you know, a couple copies of a program, you know,

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and then people can pull it off of, you know, tape in the plane,

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and while it's playing, it'll transmit another program, something like that.

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Hmm.

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You know, so they get a little staggered.

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They can show you a news program that's really fresh if you're on a long flight,

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but, you know, it's not, but you're not, you're not, you're not watching it live necessarily.

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It's getting fed up there and then played.

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Yeah, some, it was, I mean, it was pseudo live, I'm sure.

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It was some kind of delay in there, but, you know, like when 8 o'clock came around,

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the 8 o'clock shows came on, or, you know, the 11, like, for example,

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I think Leno or something came on at 11 or 11.30 or whenever that damn show was supposed to come on.

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So, it was giving the fairly live.

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I don't know exactly what the, how it was getting handed off, but it was interesting anyway.

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That, see, that kind of stuff, I, when I see, and when I see that kind of stuff, I, it's just the geek in me, I guess.

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I want to know how that sort of stuff works.

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It just pops into my head.

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So, if anybody knows, by all means, email us, radio at binrev.com, and fill in some of the blanks for me there, guys.

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One time I flew EVA Air, which is a Taiwanese airline,

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and they had a camera underneath the landing, like, underneath the plane,

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and you could sort of see the front landing gear,

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and it was one of the channels on the TV in your chair.

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And so, you know, at any point that you're flying along,

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you could switch to this channel and see, and look down on Earth,

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and as you were landing, it was a pretty wild experience to watch the landing through that camera

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as if you were sort of strapped to the bottom of the plane.

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Yeah, that's cool.

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And I, you know what, now that you mention that,

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there was one channel on there that was basically GPS.

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It would tell you exactly where we were.

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It showed the map of the states,

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and it showed a little plane icon to show exactly how far we are,

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and an estimate of how far, how much time it was left to go,

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how many miles were left to go, and our coordinates and stuff like that.

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So, there was some kind of GPS, obviously, going on there.

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All right, anyway, let's move on to email number two from,

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well, we're going to call them ESD, because we don't read real names on here.

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ESD says,

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Good afternoon.

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I was just writing to say that I'm a loyal listener to the show.

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I am not sure where to ask this question,

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so I am coming to you guys with it.

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Now, the email this week, let me break off for a second.

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The email this week is very all over the place,

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so I don't really have specific answers for this, quite honestly.

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So, that's why we're both kind of just brainstorming here and thinking this through.

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So, let's see, my question is,

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is it possible to make your laptop self-destruct?

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Say, if the feds were at your door,

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and you were in danger of having your laptop snatched for evidence or something,

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is there a preferably free or low-cost software package,

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say, that would, upon a predefined keystroke,

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wipe all data from the hard disk?

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I guess I am asking if, first, has it been done,

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and, second, if so, how was it done?

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Because, heaven forbid, if someone snatched my computer,

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there is some info that I would not want a person getting their hands on.

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Thanks.

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And this question, actually, is surprisingly common.

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I mean, I think hackers, by general nature, are uber-paranoid people.

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So, it is an interesting question,

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and I guess, didn't Kevin Rose answer this with the thermite and Ramsey

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and the broken or something like that?

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Yeah, I think there was a talk at Outer Zone about using thermite to destroy a hard drive.

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It was like a USB hard drive,

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and if you plugged it into a computer that wasn't running the right kind of driver,

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it would ignite this thermite, and it would eat the drive.

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Kind of overkill, perhaps.

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Yeah, wouldn't that eat more than the drive?

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It was an entertaining presentation.

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Yeah, that would eat more than the drive.

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That would eat through the drive, and then whatever the drive was sitting on,

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and then burn down the house that the drive was in.

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It would go through the floor and just keep going.

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Well, so let's say, joking aside now,

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what, I mean, isn't the traditional, isn't the most,

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I guess it's probably dangerous to even have this around,

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but isn't probably the most reliable way to take a very strong magnet

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and put up against your drives and just,

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because disk drives are still magnetic storage.

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You can buy a degaussing machine, and, you know, I mean, they sell industrial degaussers.

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People have reasonable IT departments that, you know,

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care about information security usually have degaussers

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so that they can wipe drives from former employees or things that they're, you know,

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like if you're taking computers off the line and you're putting them into,

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you're sending them to a recycling center or you're going to resell them,

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and you want to wipe your data off of them,

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and so they'll have these things with big magnets,

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and you flip the switch, and it just wipes the disk right out.

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Yeah, now, the problem of having one of those nearby is,

17:18.120 --> 17:20.720
as a train is going by behind you, it sounds like, is...

17:20.720 --> 17:22.320
Sorry, there's a plane flying around.

17:23.760 --> 17:26.720
...is if you accidentally flip that switch

17:26.720 --> 17:28.960
and, you know, wipe out your data when you didn't want to.

17:29.020 --> 17:30.540
You've got that innate danger,

17:30.540 --> 17:34.140
so if you're that uber paranoid to keep that around, I don't know.

17:34.140 --> 17:36.540
You might be too paranoid to have the degausser.

17:36.540 --> 17:36.700
Yeah.

17:37.640 --> 17:40.120
If one of your buddies comes over some night and thinks it's weird

17:40.120 --> 17:42.660
and presses the button, that'll be it for your computer.

17:42.880 --> 17:43.820
Oh, what's this do?

17:44.920 --> 17:49.360
Yeah, you could also make your own electromagnetic pulse device.

17:50.600 --> 17:53.020
Yeah, you could wipe out a lot more than the computer.

17:54.140 --> 17:58.180
There, yeah, there are straightforward things that you could do in terms of,

17:58.180 --> 18:04.800
you know, like PGP has, you know, a file shredder software that's really user-friendly,

18:05.300 --> 18:11.580
and there are sort of raw, right, I think is a utility for Linux that does some pretty,

18:11.580 --> 18:16.740
you know, sort of complete deletion and wiping of files.

18:16.740 --> 18:22.440
And so, I mean, if you've got a utility like that and set up a script somewhere

18:22.440 --> 18:28.300
where you can, you know, just click on something and it deletes stuff, you know.

18:28.300 --> 18:34.440
And there are definitely several, there are several open source drive disk wiping utilities

18:34.440 --> 18:36.320
that'll use the different, as a matter of fact,

18:36.420 --> 18:41.460
isn't there a Diffie-Hellman standard for how many times you wipe over a drive?

18:41.540 --> 18:45.620
Wasn't that something they also had their name attached to, 27?

18:45.620 --> 18:47.520
I don't know if they had a standard for that,

18:47.540 --> 18:49.280
but there is a federal government standard for that.

18:49.380 --> 18:50.200
Yeah, there's several DLDs.

18:50.200 --> 18:52.360
You know, the tool that I'm thinking of is not raw, right,

18:52.400 --> 18:54.340
but it starts with R, and I don't remember what it's called.

18:54.520 --> 18:57.080
There's one called R-Wipe, R-W-I-P-E.

18:57.080 --> 18:58.900
Yeah, it's R-Wipe maybe is what I'm thinking of.

18:59.040 --> 18:59.820
Yeah, that might be one.

18:59.980 --> 19:02.040
There's a couple, there's several, there really are several of them.

19:02.100 --> 19:05.920
If you go hit up SourceForge and look for drive wiping or what,

19:06.120 --> 19:12.700
I actually have two of them on one of my machines that I like to keep the free disk space,

19:12.700 --> 19:15.400
anything that's been written to, cache, file, stuff like that,

19:15.620 --> 19:20.060
I have it wipe my free space once every week, overnight, kind of like a virus scanner.

19:20.140 --> 19:22.280
You schedule it to run late night on the weekends or something,

19:22.340 --> 19:23.980
or one day when you're not going to be using it.

19:25.180 --> 19:27.880
And I can't remember, I know R-Wipe was one of them,

19:27.920 --> 19:29.440
and I can't remember what the other one was called,

19:29.560 --> 19:35.580
but like I said, there are several, and I just have it set up to wipe my free space.

19:36.240 --> 19:39.360
So basically, that'll wipe out any of my temporary files.

19:39.440 --> 19:43.880
It'll empty my temp directory, empty my cache from my browser and stuff like that.

19:43.960 --> 19:47.680
It will delete any space that I've freed up recently.

19:47.900 --> 19:51.500
So if I have, I don't know, I'm not going to go listing any files,

19:51.580 --> 19:55.320
but if I had something on there questionable and moved it to a CD or something,

19:55.860 --> 19:58.780
this will go behind it and wipe the remnants of it.

19:58.780 --> 20:02.720
And I usually set it to run once every week with a 7-pass DOD standard,

20:02.840 --> 20:06.060
which is a low, one of their lowest standards.

20:06.440 --> 20:10.160
And then I think there's a 21-pass, I want to say,

20:10.600 --> 20:14.560
that will really wipe it so that it's almost unrecoverable.

20:14.700 --> 20:16.840
The 7's pretty darn good, too.

20:16.900 --> 20:18.820
They'd really have to work to recover that.

20:18.820 --> 20:23.900
But the 21 is like for top-secret drives, the DOD standard,

20:24.000 --> 20:25.700
if they really want to wipe something of their own.

20:26.020 --> 20:26.520
And you know what?

20:26.580 --> 20:29.900
If they're happy with 21 wipes, I'm pretty happy with 21 wipes.

20:32.000 --> 20:35.240
So I'm not sure if that exactly answers your question.

20:35.400 --> 20:37.480
I mean, to me, there's not like a...

20:37.480 --> 20:40.320
If you're asking for like an easy solution, as usual in hacking,

20:40.440 --> 20:43.800
there is no magic button or no easy way to set this up.

20:43.800 --> 20:47.600
But especially if they bust down the door

20:47.600 --> 20:50.340
and you're caught with your dick in your hand, you're screwed.

20:50.980 --> 20:55.420
There's nothing you can do that quick that you're going to be able to wipe it

20:55.420 --> 20:59.420
unless you've got that decalcer switch right there in arm's length.

21:00.240 --> 21:02.420
You know, and...

21:02.420 --> 21:06.720
It's more like, if they showed up at your house because you did something,

21:06.840 --> 21:08.560
they probably know what you did.

21:09.000 --> 21:11.800
And if you wipe your computer because you press a button

21:11.800 --> 21:13.480
and they figured out that's what you did,

21:13.480 --> 21:16.760
they'll probably charge you with destroying evidence

21:16.760 --> 21:19.400
or something to that effect as well.

21:19.720 --> 21:23.480
Of course, depending on what you did, that might be a lesser charge than...

21:24.220 --> 21:25.840
Yeah, it might be.

21:26.020 --> 21:26.860
But we won't go there.

21:27.040 --> 21:31.540
I might suggest maybe the button you want is your lawyer's speed dial number.

21:31.800 --> 21:32.100
Yeah.

21:32.800 --> 21:33.480
Yeah, yeah.

21:33.500 --> 21:35.000
We're not going to endorse that, but anyway.

21:35.400 --> 21:36.980
Now, unfortunately, I can't think of a...

21:36.980 --> 21:39.180
I mean, those are some utilities, hopefully, that are helpful

21:39.180 --> 21:42.120
in physical destruction of drives and stuff.

21:42.120 --> 21:43.880
I mean, how about...

21:43.880 --> 21:45.400
See, there's so much...

21:45.400 --> 21:49.320
So many different types of forensics that they can do on drives now.

21:49.460 --> 21:50.240
There's drive shaving.

21:50.500 --> 21:51.860
There's so much stuff.

21:51.960 --> 21:53.400
I mean, what about...

21:53.400 --> 21:55.360
I mean, now we're getting, like, old school here.

21:55.400 --> 21:57.120
What if you just took the drive...

21:57.120 --> 22:00.620
Obviously, you couldn't do this, like, in an emergency situation he's describing.

22:00.620 --> 22:07.900
But let's say you had a drive with, I don't know, you had virus code or pirated MP3s and

22:07.900 --> 22:09.860
you're MPAA, you're worried about them or whatever.

22:11.540 --> 22:13.880
How about taking it out and, say, catching it on fire?

22:14.020 --> 22:16.380
Do you have any idea if that would be...

22:16.380 --> 22:19.160
Or chopping it with an axe or just crushing it?

22:19.280 --> 22:19.900
I mean...

22:19.900 --> 22:25.860
There are data recovery services that attempt to help people whose drives have been physically

22:25.860 --> 22:26.440
damaged.

22:27.600 --> 22:32.460
And so, you know, I mean, I think that, you know, you're much better off with a software

22:32.460 --> 22:38.620
solution or, you know, some sort of magnetic solution as opposed to attempting to burn it

22:38.620 --> 22:45.960
or, you know, cut it up because, you know, those things are easier to recover.

22:45.960 --> 22:48.260
It's a pain in the neck, but there are people who do that for a living.

22:48.720 --> 22:49.340
Yeah, yeah.

22:49.540 --> 22:54.780
So, software sounds like the way to go and it's probably easier in the grand scheme of

22:54.780 --> 22:55.500
things anyway.

22:56.340 --> 22:56.840
All right.

22:56.920 --> 23:00.320
Our last email this week comes from the Apple Man.

23:01.100 --> 23:06.920
Apple Man says, listening to 146 a few weeks late, but I'm sending you this email from my

23:06.920 --> 23:09.640
MDA, the one with the slide-out keyboard.

23:10.160 --> 23:11.920
From my experience, it really sucks.

23:12.020 --> 23:13.140
You can't talk on Skype.

23:13.140 --> 23:17.700
The battery lasts a day max, and the touchscreen gets way too dirty.

23:18.140 --> 23:21.880
It's so bad, I already have to send it back to be repaired twice in six months.

23:22.300 --> 23:25.800
It crashes all the time and needs to be reset whenever you want to use it.

23:26.360 --> 23:31.000
Not theory suggested the MDA Pro, which is the one with the spin-around screen, which,

23:31.120 --> 23:35.120
although big, is more powerful, has video calling and a huge battery, and, well, if you

23:35.120 --> 23:38.440
get stuck outside of your house, dot, dot, dot.

23:38.440 --> 23:44.560
Dot, okay, you left me hanging on that one, but I'm not sure what he was getting at with

23:44.560 --> 23:45.300
the outside of your house.

23:45.460 --> 23:50.520
The MDA Pro has built-in Wi-Fi, but it also has built-in Bluetooth, and I'm pretty sure

23:50.520 --> 23:56.260
it had EDVO, high-speed, third-generation, high-speed cell network support.

23:56.260 --> 24:00.220
So, if you get stuck outside of your house, you're still going to have access.

24:00.360 --> 24:01.560
I'm not sure what he's getting at there.

24:02.640 --> 24:04.620
Can I ask you what kind of phone you have, Desius?

24:05.660 --> 24:09.120
I have a Sidekick, which I'm really happy with.

24:10.620 --> 24:16.100
The thing that kind of sucks about it is that it doesn't, you can only write Java software

24:16.100 --> 24:20.360
for it, and the Java software doesn't give you sort of rich access to the hardware.

24:20.360 --> 24:25.780
So, it's not like a great phone for hacking, but it's a really usable phone.

24:26.140 --> 24:27.140
The keyboard's really big.

24:27.220 --> 24:28.280
It's great for instant messaging.

24:28.420 --> 24:32.720
The software's well-designed, and, you know, there's nice things about it.

24:33.060 --> 24:41.800
The calculator application that it comes with actually says 31337 on the icon for the calculator,

24:41.920 --> 24:42.960
which I thought was a nice touch.

24:44.320 --> 24:48.240
And there's an SSH client for it, and it can sit on IRC.

24:48.240 --> 24:52.300
I think they're coming out with a Sidekick 2 soon, so if you're thinking of investing

24:52.300 --> 24:56.700
in one of these things, then you might want to wait, because the Sidekick 2 will have

24:56.700 --> 24:57.960
faster Internet access.

24:58.120 --> 25:00.600
Well, the Sidekick 2 is actually out.

25:00.600 --> 25:02.360
Well, sorry, the Sidekick 3 is what I'm thinking of.

25:02.480 --> 25:03.620
I have a Sidekick 2.

25:05.420 --> 25:08.860
But, you know, yeah, I'm pretty happy with it.

25:09.360 --> 25:15.900
I've got a number of friends who have sort of Windows mobile devices, which are really

25:15.900 --> 25:19.020
expensive, but they're very nice, and they're very programmable.

25:19.180 --> 25:25.360
So if you want to write interesting sort of cell phone software, that's probably a better

25:25.360 --> 25:29.300
environment for getting low-level access to the hardware.

25:30.560 --> 25:35.980
Yeah, and I have the Trio 700, which I talked about on the show last week, the 700W, which

25:35.980 --> 25:36.860
is the Windows-based.

25:36.860 --> 25:42.100
And when it actually is not crashing, it actually is not so...

25:42.100 --> 25:43.360
No, actually, that's a lie.

25:43.420 --> 25:44.240
It sucks pretty hard.

25:45.680 --> 25:47.240
So tell me about your Sidekick.

25:47.320 --> 25:51.300
Do you bust out the Bedazzler and put little shiny jewels in, like, My Pretty Pony pictures?

25:51.580 --> 25:55.560
It's a little, perhaps, cheeky.

25:57.060 --> 25:59.440
You know, Paris Hilton has one of these things.

25:59.440 --> 26:01.300
But, you know, it's fine.

26:02.020 --> 26:03.140
It's very functional.

26:03.340 --> 26:08.900
It works really well for what I need it for, which is to SMS and send instant messages.

26:09.360 --> 26:11.080
And, you know, I don't...

26:11.080 --> 26:18.280
I'm not such a fan of the ringtones and the different colored LEDs and things like that.

26:18.400 --> 26:23.540
But, you know, I had a friend who had a Trio for a while, and he got it, and he didn't like

26:23.540 --> 26:26.600
the Sidekick in the beginning because he was like, dude, I can't write good software for

26:26.600 --> 26:26.720
that.

26:26.720 --> 26:28.560
I want to play with my phone.

26:28.560 --> 26:36.580
And, you know, just over time of, you know, seeing mine and, like, playing with it, he

26:36.580 --> 26:39.880
decided it was better, particularly because the keyboard's really big.

26:40.220 --> 26:40.620
Yeah.

26:40.700 --> 26:46.100
As far as using functionality out of the box, I do think the Sidekick has been the best

26:46.100 --> 26:46.920
one to do that.

26:47.740 --> 26:49.520
But, yeah, development for it's kind of rough.

26:49.640 --> 26:53.220
Getting anything published and made available for it's kind of rough.

26:53.940 --> 26:56.560
Actually, this MDA Pro that this...

26:56.560 --> 26:57.100
Who was it?

26:57.100 --> 26:58.180
The Apple man here mentioned.

26:58.740 --> 27:02.680
The MDA Pro is just an incredibly cool-looking phone.

27:02.820 --> 27:04.120
It's kind of like, I think...

27:04.120 --> 27:04.940
What is that new Microsoft?

27:05.380 --> 27:06.600
Origami, I think they call it.

27:07.500 --> 27:08.220
It's really...

27:08.220 --> 27:15.100
It's not quite that, but it is kind of the biggest, I guess, PDA phone, most powerful

27:15.100 --> 27:17.140
PDA phone, because it has the built-in Wi-Fi.

27:17.280 --> 27:19.700
It has all the stuff that almost you'd expect with a laptop.

27:19.700 --> 27:24.800
So, it's really cool that you can pretty much, if you're in the house, use your Wi-Fi.

27:24.920 --> 27:28.640
If you're out of the house, use the EVDO network or whatever high-speed network it supports.

27:29.140 --> 27:32.620
The problem is this thing is probably still two years away from a U.S. release.

27:32.620 --> 27:34.860
I was waiting on this phone.

27:35.200 --> 27:39.520
There were rumors that this phone was going to come out with T-Mobile or for T-Mobile,

27:39.800 --> 27:44.500
and my contract was up on my last phone, which was just a Motorola...

27:44.500 --> 27:45.420
Gosh, I don't remember.

27:45.480 --> 27:52.700
It was a very watered-down CMS phone, contact management phone, with a little bit of contact application.

27:52.820 --> 27:53.180
That's it.

27:53.180 --> 27:56.920
So, I waited for this to come out, and when they finally announced their MDA,

27:57.580 --> 28:01.040
it was actually what they announced it as just an MDA,

28:01.320 --> 28:05.560
which is equivalent, I think, to an MDA 3 in other countries, the third in the series.

28:05.940 --> 28:08.640
The MDA Pro is, I think, around the fifth generation.

28:09.180 --> 28:12.260
So, the stuff that we're releasing here is a couple generations behind.

28:12.860 --> 28:17.560
So, once they announced that the MDA was the one they released and it was not the MDA Pro after all,

28:17.820 --> 28:19.740
I broke down and got the Trio 700.

28:19.740 --> 28:24.880
And, again, I'm not happy with it, but it's the best solution for what I wanted,

28:24.940 --> 28:29.920
to be able to get my email on the go, and I didn't want to get tied down to a Crackberry

28:29.920 --> 28:35.540
because I wanted the other functionality that goes along with the Windows operating system,

28:35.660 --> 28:36.220
and that is...

28:36.220 --> 28:37.360
It's silly stuff.

28:37.380 --> 28:39.160
I'm not really into the ringtones too much either,

28:39.440 --> 28:44.900
but I like to be able to have Hack TV in my phone and maybe whip it out and show it off sometimes,

28:45.480 --> 28:48.260
play a little Hack TV for somebody, or any video for that matter,

28:48.260 --> 28:51.720
but play MP3s, stuff like that on it.

28:51.760 --> 28:53.100
It's kind of a cool feature to have.

28:53.920 --> 28:57.940
And other silly things like games or whatever you can put on it.

28:57.980 --> 29:02.220
Just the fact that it goes back to what you said earlier, developing for it is much easier.

29:04.900 --> 29:06.820
You could get yourself a video iPod.

29:07.760 --> 29:09.280
You know, I've considered that.

29:09.360 --> 29:12.000
I do a lot of traveling for work, and I started...

29:12.000 --> 29:15.540
I did some comparisons, but some of the other, like the Arcos, I think,

29:15.620 --> 29:19.260
makes a device that's similar, that had a lot more functionality,

29:19.460 --> 29:23.140
and I think a lower price, a larger screen, better...

29:23.140 --> 29:24.620
It just seemed to be better all the way around.

29:24.660 --> 29:27.340
I did do some research on those, and I've kind of...

29:27.340 --> 29:31.000
That was probably six months ago, so I probably am not up to date on that stuff.

29:31.960 --> 29:32.220
Yeah.

29:32.600 --> 29:34.900
But they'd be great, like, to take on the plane with me.

29:34.980 --> 29:36.120
I could sit there and watch a movie.

29:36.540 --> 29:39.740
You know, I take my laptop, of course, and I'll watch a DVD or something like that,

29:39.820 --> 29:41.380
but it's not the same.

29:42.480 --> 29:43.280
Not the same.

29:43.960 --> 29:44.460
Anyway, so...

29:44.460 --> 29:44.820
No, not at all.

29:45.060 --> 29:49.140
Yeah, let's close up the mailbag here and move into a little bit of show and tell.

29:50.140 --> 29:54.640
And actually, since we're on the topic of movies or TV,

29:56.320 --> 29:57.760
I have been...

29:57.760 --> 30:00.980
Now, the listeners who have listened to the show for...

30:00.980 --> 30:02.540
Back when I did it for a couple years ago,

30:02.540 --> 30:05.960
know that back then, I didn't have cable television.

30:06.740 --> 30:09.300
I haven't had cable television for a long time.

30:10.180 --> 30:11.740
I would just flip through the channels,

30:11.880 --> 30:13.840
occasionally watch some regular prime time.

30:13.940 --> 30:16.620
People know my obsession with American Idol, which was on Fox.

30:17.440 --> 30:18.180
Shows like that.

30:18.260 --> 30:20.400
Well, now that I'm up here, I moved recently,

30:20.580 --> 30:22.340
and that's one of the reasons I unplugged for a while.

30:22.340 --> 30:26.700
I moved, and I got cable television again, which is very cool.

30:28.020 --> 30:30.080
Unfortunately, way too addictive, I think,

30:30.520 --> 30:32.180
because I'm watching more TV than ever.

30:32.180 --> 30:35.560
But thanks to the DVR, I can just set them up to record

30:35.560 --> 30:36.940
and watch them on the weekends or whatever.

30:37.760 --> 30:41.260
But one of the shows that I've been watching a lot recently is Lost.

30:42.380 --> 30:43.900
Best show on TV, I think.

30:44.100 --> 30:45.180
Such a...

30:45.780 --> 30:47.480
I don't know, it's kind of a cock tease of a show.

30:47.560 --> 30:49.160
They leave you hanging every week,

30:49.700 --> 30:51.220
wondering what's going to happen next.

30:51.280 --> 30:54.280
They're really bad about having lots of dangling plot lines.

30:54.340 --> 30:55.580
They're like X-Men comic books.

30:55.660 --> 30:58.260
They just leave so much stuff hanging out there

30:58.260 --> 31:00.080
and make you wonder what the hell it was all about.

31:00.080 --> 31:02.760
But on this last episode of Lost,

31:02.900 --> 31:04.720
they did something that I thought was really cool.

31:04.780 --> 31:06.600
Now, you don't watch Lost, right?

31:06.660 --> 31:07.940
You're not a big TV guy.

31:09.180 --> 31:11.240
Yeah, I mean, I watch a couple of shows.

31:11.340 --> 31:12.800
I like Aqua Teen Hunger Force.

31:14.300 --> 31:16.460
But I don't watch Lost.

31:16.460 --> 31:19.740
Yeah, I don't see Aqua Teen Hunger Force doing something like this.

31:19.840 --> 31:22.940
This was kind of a cool thing that...

31:22.940 --> 31:26.280
All right, like, the long and short of the Lost is basically this ongoing drama

31:26.280 --> 31:28.960
of these people trapped on this mysterious island.

31:29.280 --> 31:32.600
That's the 10,000-foot overhead view.

31:32.600 --> 31:35.560
So, they're trapped on this island,

31:35.840 --> 31:37.820
and there's all these weird things that are happening,

31:37.940 --> 31:39.180
and nobody seems to know why.

31:39.240 --> 31:41.240
There's no logical reason, et cetera, et cetera.

31:42.060 --> 31:44.040
Well, as the story develops,

31:44.140 --> 31:46.560
they've kind of come across this...

31:46.560 --> 31:48.080
See, I don't want to ruin too much of it either,

31:48.180 --> 31:49.100
but let's...

31:49.100 --> 31:50.760
There's some kind of experiment going on.

31:50.840 --> 31:51.520
They're making...

31:51.520 --> 31:52.960
They're finding things along the island

31:52.960 --> 31:54.800
that is telling them that they have to do this.

31:54.880 --> 31:55.960
They have to push these buttons.

31:56.080 --> 31:56.980
They have to go here.

31:56.980 --> 31:59.160
They're something steering them and leading them,

31:59.360 --> 32:02.860
and basically it looks like it's some sort of social experiment

32:02.860 --> 32:04.760
that's being played on them,

32:04.800 --> 32:06.540
but they don't know by who, why,

32:06.680 --> 32:08.520
whether it's still going on or it's old.

32:09.140 --> 32:10.960
Well, they did something cool in this last episode,

32:11.420 --> 32:13.240
and I don't know how many people caught it,

32:13.280 --> 32:16.480
but during the commercials towards the end of the show,

32:17.380 --> 32:19.220
they played a fake commercial,

32:19.720 --> 32:22.120
and they didn't do it coming out of the show,

32:22.200 --> 32:24.000
going into the commercials or coming back from it.

32:24.000 --> 32:27.040
They've sandwiched it in between two real commercials,

32:27.180 --> 32:28.400
like a Burger King on one end

32:28.400 --> 32:30.020
and like a Ford on the other end,

32:30.340 --> 32:31.400
in the middle of the commercials,

32:31.520 --> 32:32.520
and it looked really real.

32:33.120 --> 32:35.080
And the only reason you'd really even notice it

32:35.080 --> 32:37.260
is if you recognize the name of the company

32:37.260 --> 32:38.080
they were advertising,

32:38.440 --> 32:40.140
you realize it was the name of the company

32:40.140 --> 32:41.820
that was mentioned in the show.

32:42.840 --> 32:45.280
So I just think this is a really cool thing,

32:45.400 --> 32:47.220
and I'm going to throw this out there for some of the freaks.

32:47.300 --> 32:48.860
I know they like phone numbers sometimes.

32:49.480 --> 32:51.660
Basically, the commercial advertised a website

32:51.660 --> 32:54.640
and advertised at the bottom a phone number

32:54.640 --> 32:55.660
for more information.

32:56.400 --> 32:58.660
And the phone number was 1-877.

32:58.960 --> 32:59.480
It's an 8.

32:59.880 --> 33:04.460
It's a 1-877-H-A-N-S-O-R-G,

33:04.580 --> 33:05.620
which is the name of the company.

33:06.220 --> 33:10.400
That's 877-426-7674.

33:11.340 --> 33:12.780
So I thought that's really cool,

33:12.960 --> 33:14.640
and I actually called the number once

33:14.640 --> 33:15.760
just to see what it is,

33:15.860 --> 33:17.040
and I'm not going to do it on the show.

33:17.120 --> 33:18.460
I'm going to let people do that on their own

33:18.460 --> 33:20.280
if they're interested in it or if they haven't already.

33:20.280 --> 33:21.860
but it's just got some neat stuff

33:21.860 --> 33:23.500
that's the kind of thing maybe we'd call on Freak Factor

33:23.500 --> 33:24.640
if we ever get that going again

33:24.640 --> 33:27.820
but I think it's kind of neat that we're moving more

33:27.820 --> 33:29.220
towards interactive television

33:29.220 --> 33:31.820
and this is something that I've been wanting for a long time

33:31.820 --> 33:34.300
I think this one unfortunately is going to be

33:34.300 --> 33:36.920
it's not going to be really interactive

33:36.920 --> 33:39.020
it's more like just throwing people some more

33:39.020 --> 33:41.200
stuff to play with and look at

33:41.200 --> 33:43.880
and there's some discussion that it's related

33:43.880 --> 33:45.620
to Sprite commercially somehow

33:45.620 --> 33:47.280
which if that turns out to be the case

33:47.280 --> 33:48.200
that'll really suck

33:48.200 --> 33:51.480
but I think it's a cool idea

33:51.480 --> 33:54.600
that I wish other shows and other places would do

33:54.600 --> 33:57.240
and that's interacting more with your audience

33:57.240 --> 33:58.320
and getting them involved

33:58.320 --> 34:01.240
and I don't mean calling to vote for your favorite idol

34:01.240 --> 34:02.760
after the show is over with

34:02.760 --> 34:05.500
I mean actually having some kind of interactivity

34:05.500 --> 34:08.760
where they reveal clues through the phone number

34:08.760 --> 34:09.600
or through the website

34:09.600 --> 34:11.140
that lead you to other things

34:11.140 --> 34:14.680
that actually help enhance the storyline of the show

34:14.680 --> 34:17.800
so anyway I just wanted to get that number out in the air

34:17.800 --> 34:19.060
in case anybody wasn't aware of it

34:19.060 --> 34:20.520
I thought that was kind of a cool thing

34:20.520 --> 34:22.380
and other than that

34:22.380 --> 34:24.200
something I've been doing

34:24.200 --> 34:25.140
I'm sorry go ahead

34:25.140 --> 34:27.460
I figure I'd drop in an anecdote

34:27.460 --> 34:29.520
about that

34:29.520 --> 34:30.840
I mean there

34:30.840 --> 34:34.100
you know what I don't have an exhaustive

34:34.100 --> 34:35.580
knowledge of this

34:35.580 --> 34:37.500
there's probably a Wikipedia article on it

34:37.500 --> 34:37.860
but there

34:37.860 --> 34:40.260
you know is the odd

34:40.260 --> 34:41.940
movie or television show

34:41.940 --> 34:43.440
that drops a real phone number

34:43.440 --> 34:44.440
for one reason or another

34:44.440 --> 34:45.860
and one I remember

34:45.860 --> 34:47.280
is Sneakers

34:47.280 --> 34:50.120
and I didn't catch this

34:50.120 --> 34:51.200
when it came out in the theater

34:51.200 --> 34:53.740
but the scene

34:53.740 --> 34:56.940
where they get busted

34:56.940 --> 34:57.940
by the Secret Service

34:57.940 --> 35:00.780
and they're asking River Phoenix

35:00.780 --> 35:01.780
what he wants

35:01.780 --> 35:02.220
or whatever

35:02.220 --> 35:02.960
you know

35:02.960 --> 35:04.340
and he says he wants

35:04.340 --> 35:07.620
the Secret Service agent

35:07.620 --> 35:09.760
girl's phone number

35:09.760 --> 35:10.880
and she

35:10.880 --> 35:11.380
you know

35:11.380 --> 35:12.420
so she gives him

35:12.420 --> 35:13.660
her phone number

35:13.660 --> 35:15.000
the phone number she reads out

35:15.000 --> 35:16.080
is a real phone number

35:16.080 --> 35:16.840
and

35:16.840 --> 35:18.360
like I said

35:18.360 --> 35:19.020
I didn't catch it

35:19.020 --> 35:19.900
when I saw it in the theater

35:19.900 --> 35:21.260
and it was a long time

35:21.260 --> 35:22.640
before I actually rented it

35:22.640 --> 35:24.380
but when I rented it

35:24.380 --> 35:25.580
I was like

35:25.580 --> 35:25.920
wait a minute

35:25.920 --> 35:26.840
that was a real number

35:26.840 --> 35:27.480
so

35:27.480 --> 35:28.820
so I called it

35:28.820 --> 35:29.460
and it was this

35:29.460 --> 35:30.260
this

35:30.260 --> 35:31.560
this voicemail box

35:31.560 --> 35:32.320
for some lady

35:32.320 --> 35:33.760
who was obviously irate

35:33.760 --> 35:34.720
about getting all these

35:34.720 --> 35:35.280
phone calls

35:35.280 --> 35:35.880
from these weird

35:35.880 --> 35:36.720
computer geeks

35:36.720 --> 35:38.100
and she goes on

35:38.100 --> 35:38.600
about how

35:38.600 --> 35:39.340
you know

35:39.340 --> 35:40.000
she doesn't

35:40.000 --> 35:40.540
you know

35:40.540 --> 35:41.640
she doesn't take dates

35:41.640 --> 35:42.540
and you know

35:42.540 --> 35:43.740
this was some weird thing

35:43.740 --> 35:44.300
that MGM

35:44.300 --> 35:45.780
Universal Studios did

35:45.780 --> 35:46.500
and you know

35:46.500 --> 35:47.320
it's not her number

35:47.320 --> 35:48.420
and you know

35:48.420 --> 35:48.980
blah blah blah blah

35:48.980 --> 35:49.920
it was kind of funny

35:49.920 --> 35:52.020
I had no idea

35:52.020 --> 35:52.540
what you'd get

35:52.540 --> 35:53.340
if you called that number

35:53.340 --> 35:53.760
today

35:53.760 --> 35:55.020
and I

35:55.020 --> 35:55.920
I really don't know

35:55.920 --> 35:56.280
what

35:56.280 --> 35:57.400
what was on it

35:57.400 --> 35:57.760
originally

35:57.760 --> 35:58.260
but

35:58.260 --> 35:59.600
I thought it was

35:59.600 --> 36:00.120
an interesting

36:00.120 --> 36:00.900
bit of trivia

36:00.900 --> 36:01.920
yeah

36:01.920 --> 36:02.980
and you know

36:02.980 --> 36:03.420
that's why

36:03.420 --> 36:04.320
usually in movies

36:04.320 --> 36:04.980
and TV shows

36:04.980 --> 36:06.460
they reserve 555

36:06.460 --> 36:07.420
555 is not

36:07.420 --> 36:08.160
a usable number

36:08.160 --> 36:09.000
anytime you hear

36:09.000 --> 36:11.540
something on a TV show

36:11.540 --> 36:12.140
they may have

36:12.140 --> 36:13.420
a legitimate area code

36:13.420 --> 36:13.980
like you'll hear

36:13.980 --> 36:14.400
I don't know

36:14.400 --> 36:14.980
Law and Order

36:14.980 --> 36:15.880
which is in New York

36:15.880 --> 36:16.720
you'll hear them say

36:16.720 --> 36:18.280
2-1-2-5-5-5

36:18.280 --> 36:19.100
and then a number

36:19.100 --> 36:20.980
but 555 is not

36:20.980 --> 36:21.860
a valid exchange

36:21.860 --> 36:22.660
so it's never

36:22.660 --> 36:22.960
you know

36:22.960 --> 36:23.440
those are never

36:23.440 --> 36:24.000
real numbers

36:24.000 --> 36:24.380
and I thought

36:24.380 --> 36:24.940
that was just

36:24.940 --> 36:26.320
generally accepted

36:26.320 --> 36:27.320
I guess they slipped up

36:27.320 --> 36:27.820
on that one

36:27.820 --> 36:28.140
huh

36:28.140 --> 36:30.460
oh that poor woman

36:30.460 --> 36:31.180
must have been

36:31.180 --> 36:32.900
now

36:32.900 --> 36:34.300
something

36:34.300 --> 36:34.860
you know

36:34.860 --> 36:36.280
this is a

36:36.280 --> 36:37.180
sort of

36:37.180 --> 36:38.400
nostalgic conversation

36:38.400 --> 36:39.160
sometimes

36:39.160 --> 36:40.000
some of the numbers

36:40.000 --> 36:40.880
in 555

36:40.880 --> 36:41.820
are real numbers

36:41.820 --> 36:44.100
obviously 555-1212

36:44.100 --> 36:45.900
is always a real number

36:45.900 --> 36:47.360
but sometimes

36:47.360 --> 36:48.160
there's other stuff

36:48.160 --> 36:49.280
in there as well

36:49.280 --> 36:50.960
and it's usually

36:50.960 --> 36:52.080
kind of in neat

36:52.080 --> 36:55.100
but you know

36:55.100 --> 36:57.720
there's a lot of

36:57.720 --> 36:58.100
dead air

36:58.100 --> 36:58.560
between

36:58.560 --> 36:59.800
in between

36:59.800 --> 37:00.640
random things

37:00.640 --> 37:01.500
that might exist

37:01.500 --> 37:02.120
in that space

37:02.120 --> 37:02.820
it would be an

37:02.820 --> 37:03.280
interesting

37:03.280 --> 37:04.280
interesting scan

37:04.280 --> 37:05.240
to see what people

37:05.240 --> 37:05.740
would find

37:05.740 --> 37:06.200
in some of those

37:06.200 --> 37:07.260
555 exchanges

37:07.260 --> 37:07.800
I mean yeah

37:07.800 --> 37:08.080
you're right

37:08.080 --> 37:08.940
1212 is an

37:08.940 --> 37:09.500
obvious one

37:09.500 --> 37:11.060
so yeah

37:11.060 --> 37:11.620
maybe there is

37:11.620 --> 37:12.360
other interesting

37:12.360 --> 37:13.060
stuff after all

37:13.060 --> 37:14.320
it's pretty much

37:14.320 --> 37:14.780
generally

37:14.780 --> 37:15.940
I don't know

37:15.940 --> 37:16.420
if it's common

37:16.420 --> 37:16.740
knowledge

37:16.740 --> 37:17.180
but it's pretty

37:17.180 --> 37:17.740
much accepted

37:17.740 --> 37:18.180
that if you're

37:18.180 --> 37:18.680
going to do a show

37:18.680 --> 37:19.380
you just make up

37:19.380 --> 37:20.360
555-whatever

37:20.360 --> 37:21.280
and it's assumed

37:21.280 --> 37:22.040
to be not in use

37:22.040 --> 37:22.820
but you never know

37:22.820 --> 37:24.020
yeah I mean

37:24.020 --> 37:24.700
it's not going to be

37:24.700 --> 37:25.340
it's connected

37:25.340 --> 37:26.000
with the consumer

37:26.000 --> 37:27.000
you're going to

37:27.000 --> 37:27.420
get connected

37:27.420 --> 37:27.920
to some weird

37:27.920 --> 37:28.720
phone company system

37:28.720 --> 37:29.740
if the number

37:29.740 --> 37:30.220
exists

37:30.220 --> 37:31.280
you know

37:31.280 --> 37:31.920
maybe it's a

37:31.920 --> 37:32.820
maybe it's a

37:32.820 --> 37:33.160
you know

37:33.160 --> 37:33.840
they put a

37:33.840 --> 37:35.180
loop test

37:35.180 --> 37:35.800
or something else

37:35.800 --> 37:36.720
a toner in there

37:36.720 --> 37:37.880
you know

37:37.880 --> 37:38.400
sometimes there's

37:38.400 --> 37:39.240
weird stuff in there

37:39.240 --> 37:40.460
at least that's

37:40.460 --> 37:41.080
my recollection

37:41.080 --> 37:41.540
from like

37:41.540 --> 37:42.880
a long long time ago

37:42.880 --> 37:44.360
be very careful

37:44.360 --> 37:45.240
with those numbers

37:45.240 --> 37:45.900
I'll just leave

37:45.900 --> 37:46.580
that alone

37:46.580 --> 37:48.100
yes absolutely

37:48.100 --> 37:51.040
and actually

37:51.040 --> 37:51.760
this is another

37:51.760 --> 37:52.800
kind of funny thing

37:52.800 --> 37:54.420
another TV thing

37:54.420 --> 37:55.220
that's hooked me

37:55.220 --> 37:56.560
purely

37:56.560 --> 37:57.400
the show is

37:57.400 --> 37:58.280
utter garbage

37:58.280 --> 38:00.720
it's called

38:00.720 --> 38:01.780
Deal or No Deal

38:01.780 --> 38:03.120
and I've been

38:03.120 --> 38:03.720
watching this

38:03.720 --> 38:04.200
well I don't

38:04.200 --> 38:04.920
watch it regularly

38:04.920 --> 38:05.660
it is garbage

38:05.660 --> 38:06.460
but if I ever

38:06.460 --> 38:07.600
am catching it on

38:07.600 --> 38:09.360
I have to admit

38:09.360 --> 38:10.340
that for some reason

38:10.340 --> 38:11.240
it intrigues me

38:11.240 --> 38:11.860
it addicts me

38:11.860 --> 38:12.620
from a mathematical

38:12.620 --> 38:13.140
standpoint

38:13.140 --> 38:14.440
I grab

38:14.440 --> 38:15.880
a notepad

38:15.880 --> 38:16.760
and pen

38:16.760 --> 38:17.440
and I write down

38:17.440 --> 38:18.100
the combinations

38:18.100 --> 38:19.100
and what this is

38:19.100 --> 38:19.820
for those who don't know

38:19.820 --> 38:20.340
it's basically

38:20.340 --> 38:21.120
a game show

38:21.120 --> 38:22.160
where they have

38:22.160 --> 38:22.560
a bunch of

38:22.560 --> 38:23.480
different dollar amounts

38:23.480 --> 38:24.240
from I think

38:24.240 --> 38:24.840
one penny

38:24.840 --> 38:26.060
and then it jumps

38:26.060 --> 38:26.900
to like one dollar

38:26.900 --> 38:27.700
five dollars

38:27.700 --> 38:28.340
ten dollars

38:28.340 --> 38:28.840
and it jumps

38:28.840 --> 38:29.780
in these big increments

38:29.780 --> 38:31.440
up to a million dollars

38:31.440 --> 38:33.000
and there are

38:33.000 --> 38:33.600
I think

38:33.600 --> 38:35.180
32 different numbers

38:35.180 --> 38:36.360
there's 32 suitcases

38:36.360 --> 38:36.840
you pick

38:36.840 --> 38:37.380
and each one

38:37.380 --> 38:38.300
has a dollar amount

38:38.300 --> 38:38.740
in it

38:38.740 --> 38:40.260
supposedly randomly

38:40.260 --> 38:41.880
distributed each game

38:41.880 --> 38:42.440
and resets

38:42.440 --> 38:42.960
it's random

38:42.960 --> 38:44.740
and to me

38:44.740 --> 38:45.300
it's just a very

38:45.300 --> 38:46.380
intriguing algorithm

38:46.380 --> 38:47.260
behind it

38:47.260 --> 38:47.700
because

38:47.700 --> 38:48.840
your goal

38:48.840 --> 38:49.840
is to end up

38:49.840 --> 38:50.840
with a thousand dollar

38:50.840 --> 38:51.780
suitcase somehow

38:51.780 --> 38:53.940
but it's a process

38:53.940 --> 38:54.680
of elimination

38:54.680 --> 38:55.940
fundamentally

38:55.940 --> 38:56.740
all you're going to do

38:56.740 --> 38:57.760
is keep picking cases

38:57.760 --> 38:58.760
and you're hoping

38:58.760 --> 38:59.400
you're eliminating

38:59.400 --> 39:00.620
small number amounts

39:00.620 --> 39:02.800
and if you eliminate

39:02.800 --> 39:03.600
all the small numbers

39:03.600 --> 39:04.100
and you're left

39:04.100 --> 39:05.120
with a million dollar case

39:05.120 --> 39:06.440
that's your ultimate goal

39:06.440 --> 39:06.780
right

39:06.780 --> 39:09.260
but it's just so

39:09.260 --> 39:10.500
I don't know

39:10.500 --> 39:11.400
brilliant to me

39:11.400 --> 39:11.680
that

39:11.680 --> 39:13.160
I don't know

39:13.160 --> 39:14.180
if irony is the right word

39:14.180 --> 39:14.860
but the more

39:14.860 --> 39:15.740
of the small

39:15.740 --> 39:16.780
amount cases

39:16.780 --> 39:17.660
you get rid of

39:17.660 --> 39:19.540
you're left

39:19.540 --> 39:20.540
with large cases

39:20.540 --> 39:21.360
with large amounts

39:21.360 --> 39:21.680
in it

39:21.680 --> 39:22.860
and statistically

39:22.860 --> 39:24.020
your odds

39:24.020 --> 39:25.020
of picking a low number

39:25.020 --> 39:25.740
go down

39:25.740 --> 39:26.840
so you're inevitably

39:26.840 --> 39:27.420
going to end up

39:27.420 --> 39:28.500
picking the large numbers

39:28.500 --> 39:29.400
and you're always

39:29.400 --> 39:30.460
going to end up

39:30.460 --> 39:31.380
in some average

39:31.380 --> 39:32.360
dollar amount

39:32.360 --> 39:33.660
over the long term

39:33.660 --> 39:36.080
in any individual game

39:36.080 --> 39:36.820
and I've written

39:36.820 --> 39:37.920
I've written some articles

39:37.920 --> 39:38.600
on statistics

39:38.600 --> 39:39.380
and the lottery

39:39.380 --> 39:40.560
and stuff for 2600

39:40.560 --> 39:42.060
and statistics people

39:42.060 --> 39:43.380
know that I'm very into that

39:43.380 --> 39:44.340
I find all that stuff

39:44.340 --> 39:44.740
interesting

39:44.740 --> 39:46.200
this is very cool

39:46.200 --> 39:46.840
there's probably

39:46.840 --> 39:48.320
if you balance out

39:48.320 --> 39:49.060
all the people

39:49.060 --> 39:49.640
who have won it

39:49.640 --> 39:50.460
you'd probably come up

39:50.460 --> 39:51.540
with a pretty close average

39:51.540 --> 39:53.020
and over the long term

39:53.020 --> 39:55.220
a long history of the game

39:55.220 --> 39:56.000
you'd probably find

39:56.000 --> 39:57.020
everybody would

39:57.020 --> 39:58.980
deviate towards that

39:58.980 --> 40:00.680
median and middle point

40:00.680 --> 40:01.540
I've had conversations

40:01.540 --> 40:02.520
with friends about

40:02.520 --> 40:04.360
should there be

40:04.360 --> 40:05.040
a goal

40:05.040 --> 40:05.640
that if you get

40:05.640 --> 40:07.200
over the average amount

40:07.200 --> 40:08.720
should you automatically

40:08.720 --> 40:09.620
call it quits

40:09.620 --> 40:10.520
should you automatically

40:10.520 --> 40:11.600
say oh well

40:11.600 --> 40:12.920
the deal that I've been

40:12.920 --> 40:13.600
offered is

40:13.600 --> 40:14.500
X number of dollars

40:14.500 --> 40:15.220
so I should quit

40:15.220 --> 40:16.160
and take that and run

40:16.160 --> 40:17.640
so anyway

40:17.640 --> 40:18.880
it's an intriguing algorithm

40:18.880 --> 40:20.120
if you haven't

40:20.120 --> 40:20.940
looked into that

40:20.940 --> 40:22.080
there's actually

40:22.080 --> 40:22.600
a really good

40:22.600 --> 40:23.840
Wikipedia article on that

40:23.840 --> 40:24.360
since you mentioned

40:24.360 --> 40:24.840
Wikipedia

40:24.840 --> 40:25.920
it's a really good

40:25.920 --> 40:26.620
article on that

40:26.620 --> 40:27.400
that links to

40:27.400 --> 40:28.360
some of the algorithms

40:28.360 --> 40:29.340
and stuff like that

40:29.340 --> 40:30.620
and I've actually

40:30.620 --> 40:31.400
done a lot of

40:31.400 --> 40:32.340
work on it myself

40:32.340 --> 40:32.920
trying to think

40:32.920 --> 40:33.740
about how it works

40:33.740 --> 40:35.720
and I've kind of

40:35.720 --> 40:36.840
got the algorithm

40:36.840 --> 40:38.280
I won't say cracked

40:38.280 --> 40:38.920
but I've got it

40:38.920 --> 40:39.760
down to pretty close

40:39.760 --> 40:40.580
so I know exactly

40:40.580 --> 40:41.360
how it's working

40:41.360 --> 40:42.460
there's some kind

40:42.460 --> 40:43.340
of weighting system

40:43.340 --> 40:43.900
going on

40:43.900 --> 40:44.600
and I just haven't

40:44.600 --> 40:45.440
ironed out exactly

40:45.440 --> 40:46.180
what the weight

40:46.180 --> 40:47.120
is like

40:47.120 --> 40:49.640
so it's one of those

40:49.640 --> 40:50.180
things where I'm

40:50.180 --> 40:51.060
totally reverse

40:51.060 --> 40:51.720
engineering it

40:51.720 --> 40:52.540
by writing down

40:52.540 --> 40:53.120
the amounts

40:53.120 --> 40:53.980
writing down

40:53.980 --> 40:54.620
the offer that

40:54.620 --> 40:55.200
comes in

40:55.200 --> 40:56.700
and every time

40:56.700 --> 40:57.280
that happens

40:57.280 --> 40:57.940
if I can ever

40:57.940 --> 40:58.700
find an algorithm

40:58.700 --> 40:59.820
that works

40:59.820 --> 41:00.380
it should work

41:00.380 --> 41:00.860
universally

41:02.340 --> 41:03.740
I don't know

41:03.740 --> 41:04.400
why I find

41:04.400 --> 41:04.940
that interesting

41:04.940 --> 41:05.680
but I do

41:05.680 --> 41:06.320
and it's a

41:06.320 --> 41:06.920
complete waste

41:06.920 --> 41:07.460
of time

41:07.460 --> 41:08.000
that will never

41:08.000 --> 41:08.860
ever get me

41:08.860 --> 41:09.540
anything in the

41:09.540 --> 41:09.920
world

41:09.920 --> 41:11.260
but for some

41:11.260 --> 41:11.540
reason

41:11.540 --> 41:12.640
I find that

41:12.640 --> 41:13.340
stuff interesting

41:13.340 --> 41:15.220
so that's enough

41:15.220 --> 41:15.800
for my hacking

41:15.800 --> 41:16.400
stories for the

41:16.400 --> 41:16.980
week I guess

41:16.980 --> 41:17.640
what uh

41:17.640 --> 41:18.280
it's been a while

41:18.280 --> 41:18.700
since you've been

41:18.700 --> 41:19.080
on the show

41:19.080 --> 41:19.420
there buddy

41:19.420 --> 41:19.660
what have you

41:19.660 --> 41:20.220
been up to

41:20.220 --> 41:22.220
I don't know

41:22.220 --> 41:22.400
man

41:22.400 --> 41:22.820
working on

41:22.820 --> 41:23.360
projects

41:23.360 --> 41:23.900
and uh

41:23.900 --> 41:24.920
and uh

41:24.920 --> 41:25.960
just uh

41:25.960 --> 41:26.520
just chilling

41:26.520 --> 41:28.280
yeah you and

41:28.280 --> 41:28.780
I are in the

41:28.780 --> 41:29.180
same boat

41:29.180 --> 41:29.900
as far as

41:29.900 --> 41:30.800
we have a few

41:30.800 --> 41:31.460
projects that we

41:31.460 --> 41:32.220
can't talk about

41:32.220 --> 41:34.160
yep I got a lot

41:34.160 --> 41:34.620
of uh

41:34.620 --> 41:35.220
I got a lot

41:35.220 --> 41:35.620
of stuff

41:35.620 --> 41:36.440
you know

41:36.440 --> 41:36.860
I don't know

41:36.860 --> 41:37.640
hopefully uh

41:37.640 --> 41:38.560
hopefully uh

41:38.560 --> 41:38.860
I'll get

41:38.860 --> 41:39.560
opportunities to

41:39.560 --> 41:39.960
talk about

41:39.960 --> 41:40.260
some of the

41:40.260 --> 41:40.680
stuff I've been

41:40.680 --> 41:41.120
working on

41:41.120 --> 41:41.560
over the

41:41.560 --> 41:42.540
next few

41:42.540 --> 41:42.820
months

41:42.820 --> 41:43.380
but uh

41:43.380 --> 41:44.080
uh

41:44.080 --> 41:45.220
it's all uh

41:45.220 --> 41:45.960
it's all uh

41:45.960 --> 41:46.680
in the garage

41:46.680 --> 41:47.440
under the uh

41:47.440 --> 41:48.380
under sheets

41:48.380 --> 41:48.960
right now

41:48.960 --> 41:50.820
gotcha gotcha

41:50.820 --> 41:51.740
well and now

41:51.740 --> 41:52.260
we did find

41:52.260 --> 41:52.800
Tom we met

41:52.800 --> 41:53.460
up at uh

41:53.460 --> 41:53.840
we met up

41:53.840 --> 41:54.240
in Atlanta

41:54.240 --> 41:54.860
at InnerZone

41:54.860 --> 41:55.860
and I think

41:55.860 --> 41:56.580
you mentioned

41:56.580 --> 41:57.280
earlier that

41:57.280 --> 41:57.800
you're trying

41:57.800 --> 41:58.100
to make it

41:58.100 --> 41:58.400
to Hope

41:58.400 --> 41:59.660
uh

41:59.660 --> 42:00.320
gonna try

42:00.320 --> 42:01.760
definitely like

42:01.760 --> 42:02.200
Manhattan

42:02.200 --> 42:03.440
yep yeah

42:03.440 --> 42:03.960
so I've already

42:03.960 --> 42:04.520
booked for that

42:04.520 --> 42:05.060
so I'll definitely

42:05.060 --> 42:05.480
be there

42:05.480 --> 42:06.080
so um

42:06.080 --> 42:06.460
we're definitely

42:06.460 --> 42:06.920
gonna have to

42:06.920 --> 42:07.920
go uh

42:07.920 --> 42:08.560
go hang out

42:08.560 --> 42:09.060
downtown

42:09.060 --> 42:09.700
Manhattan

42:09.700 --> 42:11.040
that weekend

42:11.040 --> 42:11.880
go get a drink

42:11.880 --> 42:12.200
at night

42:12.200 --> 42:12.680
some night

42:12.680 --> 42:14.440
so um

42:14.440 --> 42:15.280
alright well

42:15.280 --> 42:15.920
there's some

42:15.920 --> 42:16.260
uh

42:16.260 --> 42:16.860
rumblings of

42:16.860 --> 42:17.120
throwing

42:17.120 --> 42:18.320
an industrial

42:18.320 --> 42:18.780
mimetics

42:18.780 --> 42:19.340
party

42:19.340 --> 42:20.460
but uh

42:20.460 --> 42:21.580
I don't

42:21.580 --> 42:22.240
know uh

42:22.240 --> 42:23.000
whether or not

42:23.000 --> 42:23.320
that's gonna

42:23.320 --> 42:23.880
come together

42:23.880 --> 42:24.480
there's uh

42:24.480 --> 42:25.540
there's some

42:25.540 --> 42:26.100
uh there's some

42:26.100 --> 42:26.500
things in the

42:26.500 --> 42:26.880
works though

42:26.880 --> 42:27.380
perhaps

42:27.380 --> 42:28.100
well cool

42:28.100 --> 42:28.500
definitely

42:28.500 --> 42:29.080
definitely let

42:29.080 --> 42:29.360
us know

42:29.360 --> 42:29.740
so we can

42:29.740 --> 42:30.120
tell the

42:30.120 --> 42:30.680
listeners about

42:30.680 --> 42:31.300
it um

42:31.300 --> 42:32.080
I'm sure

42:32.080 --> 42:32.600
there's lots

42:32.600 --> 42:32.920
of people

42:32.920 --> 42:33.400
listening that

42:33.400 --> 42:33.600
are gonna

42:33.600 --> 42:33.980
be there

42:33.980 --> 42:34.700
so um

42:34.700 --> 42:34.860
yeah

42:34.860 --> 42:35.380
keep us

42:35.380 --> 42:35.600
in the

42:35.600 --> 42:35.760
loop

42:35.760 --> 42:36.140
on that

42:36.140 --> 42:36.940
um

42:36.940 --> 42:37.340
I guess

42:37.340 --> 42:37.840
now we

42:37.840 --> 42:38.120
should go

42:38.120 --> 42:38.400
into the

42:38.400 --> 42:38.980
main topic

42:38.980 --> 42:39.460
um

42:39.460 --> 42:41.280
and this

42:41.280 --> 42:41.480
could

42:41.480 --> 42:41.860
let's see

42:41.860 --> 42:42.420
we're 40

42:42.420 --> 42:42.980
minutes in

42:42.980 --> 42:43.420
here

42:43.420 --> 42:44.720
a little

42:44.720 --> 42:45.320
over 40

42:45.320 --> 42:46.020
so we've

42:46.020 --> 42:46.500
got some

42:46.500 --> 42:47.020
we're gonna need

42:47.020 --> 42:47.540
a little time

42:47.540 --> 42:47.960
to go through

42:47.960 --> 42:48.280
this

42:48.280 --> 42:49.740
I'm gonna

42:49.740 --> 42:50.380
go briefly

42:50.380 --> 42:50.940
over some

42:50.940 --> 42:51.160
of the

42:51.160 --> 42:51.660
general

42:51.660 --> 42:53.060
slash

42:53.060 --> 42:54.640
easy stuff

42:54.640 --> 42:55.080
and then

42:55.080 --> 42:55.600
leave you

42:55.600 --> 42:56.280
with the

42:56.280 --> 42:57.200
hard stuff

42:57.200 --> 42:58.140
all right

42:58.140 --> 42:58.520
all right

42:58.520 --> 42:58.960
well hopefully

42:58.960 --> 42:59.860
my explanations

42:59.860 --> 43:00.340
will be

43:00.340 --> 43:00.880
clear

43:00.880 --> 43:02.680
this is one

43:02.680 --> 43:02.940
of those

43:02.940 --> 43:03.360
things where

43:03.360 --> 43:03.620
if I

43:03.620 --> 43:05.100
if this

43:05.100 --> 43:05.640
was a

43:05.640 --> 43:06.660
television

43:06.660 --> 43:07.180
and I could

43:07.180 --> 43:07.840
draw it

43:07.840 --> 43:08.260
would be much

43:08.260 --> 43:08.720
easier to

43:08.720 --> 43:09.200
explain

43:09.200 --> 43:10.300
exactly

43:10.300 --> 43:10.800
exactly

43:10.800 --> 43:11.100
we can do

43:11.100 --> 43:11.560
a Hack TV

43:11.560 --> 43:12.220
episode on

43:12.220 --> 43:12.360
this

43:12.360 --> 43:12.740
it might be

43:12.740 --> 43:12.980
better

43:12.980 --> 43:13.260
but

43:13.260 --> 43:13.880
well we're

43:13.880 --> 43:14.280
gonna go

43:14.280 --> 43:14.880
and see

43:14.880 --> 43:15.240
this comes

43:15.240 --> 43:15.620
back to what

43:15.620 --> 43:15.860
you said

43:15.860 --> 43:16.380
earlier too

43:16.380 --> 43:16.940
is I can

43:16.940 --> 43:17.560
do so much

43:17.560 --> 43:18.180
reading on

43:18.180 --> 43:18.580
my own

43:18.580 --> 43:19.080
and I have

43:19.080 --> 43:19.560
the tools

43:19.560 --> 43:19.880
and I've

43:19.880 --> 43:20.340
played around

43:20.340 --> 43:20.660
with them

43:20.660 --> 43:21.540
and I got

43:21.540 --> 43:22.040
a good

43:22.040 --> 43:23.480
A I can

43:23.480 --> 43:23.920
use them

43:23.920 --> 43:24.160
and know

43:24.160 --> 43:24.480
how they

43:24.480 --> 43:24.700
work

43:24.700 --> 43:25.060
obviously

43:25.060 --> 43:25.400
I can do

43:25.400 --> 43:25.740
the script

43:25.740 --> 43:26.020
kitty

43:26.020 --> 43:26.720
use the

43:26.720 --> 43:27.100
tools

43:27.100 --> 43:28.200
big deal

43:28.200 --> 43:28.660
big whoop

43:28.660 --> 43:28.900
there

43:28.900 --> 43:29.900
but I did

43:29.900 --> 43:30.460
read the

43:30.460 --> 43:31.100
actual

43:31.100 --> 43:34.460
white paper

43:34.460 --> 43:34.900
I guess

43:34.900 --> 43:36.600
on this

43:36.600 --> 43:37.060
original

43:37.060 --> 43:38.080
concept

43:38.080 --> 43:39.320
and tried

43:39.320 --> 43:39.780
to kind of

43:39.780 --> 43:40.140
take it

43:40.140 --> 43:40.440
from there

43:40.440 --> 43:40.820
and I got

43:40.820 --> 43:41.620
the very

43:41.620 --> 43:42.560
very general

43:42.560 --> 43:43.360
basis of it

43:43.360 --> 43:43.640
but the

43:43.640 --> 43:43.980
mathematics

43:43.980 --> 43:44.680
behind it

43:44.680 --> 43:45.340
is very

43:45.340 --> 43:47.760
not obscure

43:47.760 --> 43:48.240
I'm not sure

43:48.240 --> 43:49.040
what a good

43:49.040 --> 43:49.460
word is

43:49.460 --> 43:49.820
actually

43:49.820 --> 43:50.760
but we'll

43:50.760 --> 43:51.200
come to that

43:51.200 --> 43:51.500
in a minute

43:51.500 --> 43:52.180
and basically

43:52.180 --> 43:53.940
we're talking

43:53.940 --> 43:54.660
about of course

43:54.660 --> 43:55.360
rainbow tables

43:55.360 --> 43:55.800
if I didn't

43:55.800 --> 43:56.160
already say

43:56.160 --> 43:56.640
that again

43:56.640 --> 43:58.060
and rainbow

43:58.060 --> 43:59.040
tables were

43:59.040 --> 44:00.460
created by

44:00.460 --> 44:00.920
and I hope

44:00.920 --> 44:01.360
I pronounced

44:01.360 --> 44:02.120
this correctly

44:02.120 --> 44:02.960
the concept

44:02.960 --> 44:03.940
is from

44:03.940 --> 44:04.380
Dr.

44:04.640 --> 44:05.040
Felipe

44:05.040 --> 44:06.480
or Dr.

44:06.620 --> 44:08.620
Ph-P-H

44:08.620 --> 44:10.580
I-L-I-P-P-E

44:10.580 --> 44:11.100
I guess that's

44:11.100 --> 44:11.800
Felipe right

44:11.800 --> 44:13.400
uh yeah

44:13.400 --> 44:14.040
I guess

44:14.040 --> 44:14.500
I don't know

44:14.500 --> 44:15.060
Philip

44:15.060 --> 44:15.520
Felipe

44:15.520 --> 44:16.080
I'm sorry

44:16.080 --> 44:16.360
if I'm

44:16.360 --> 44:16.660
mangling

44:16.660 --> 44:17.080
your name

44:17.080 --> 44:17.640
and the

44:17.640 --> 44:18.060
last one

44:18.060 --> 44:18.240
is

44:18.240 --> 44:21.220
O-E-C-H-S-L-I-N

44:21.220 --> 44:21.680
Felipe

44:21.680 --> 44:22.120
O-E-C-H-S-L-I-N

44:22.120 --> 44:23.280
and from

44:23.280 --> 44:23.780
the Swiss

44:23.780 --> 44:24.360
Federal

44:24.360 --> 44:24.900
Institute

44:24.900 --> 44:25.940
of Technology

44:25.940 --> 44:27.880
and that

44:27.880 --> 44:28.560
actually was

44:28.560 --> 44:29.100
based on

44:29.100 --> 44:29.520
an original

44:29.520 --> 44:30.220
idea from

44:30.220 --> 44:30.760
even further

44:30.760 --> 44:31.260
back a

44:31.260 --> 44:31.800
cryptographer

44:31.800 --> 44:32.220
that you're

44:32.220 --> 44:32.780
very familiar

44:32.780 --> 44:33.080
with

44:33.080 --> 44:33.440
Martin

44:33.440 --> 44:33.920
Hellman

44:33.920 --> 44:34.980
of course

44:34.980 --> 44:35.480
of Diffie

44:35.480 --> 44:35.800
Hellman

44:35.800 --> 44:36.260
fame

44:36.260 --> 44:39.100
and also

44:39.100 --> 44:40.720
the original

44:40.720 --> 44:41.720
idea was

44:41.720 --> 44:42.220
invented in

44:42.220 --> 44:43.060
1980 by

44:43.060 --> 44:43.500
my

44:43.500 --> 44:44.320
Hellman

44:44.320 --> 44:44.960
and some

44:44.960 --> 44:45.580
other folks

44:45.580 --> 44:46.120
whose names

44:46.120 --> 44:46.520
I don't

44:46.520 --> 44:47.040
remember right

44:47.040 --> 44:47.660
now

44:47.660 --> 44:48.880
and Hellman

44:48.880 --> 44:49.440
is Diffie

44:49.440 --> 44:49.680
Hellman

44:49.680 --> 44:49.980
Hellman

44:49.980 --> 44:51.680
and then

44:51.680 --> 44:52.080
it was

44:52.080 --> 44:52.840
improved upon

44:52.840 --> 44:53.580
by Ron

44:53.580 --> 44:54.220
Ravast

44:54.220 --> 44:54.960
who is

44:54.960 --> 44:55.880
a professor

44:55.880 --> 44:56.380
at MIT

44:56.380 --> 44:56.900
and he's

44:56.900 --> 44:57.420
the R

44:57.420 --> 44:58.280
in RSA

44:58.280 --> 44:59.980
and then

44:59.980 --> 45:01.040
this

45:01.040 --> 45:01.500
Felipe

45:01.500 --> 45:03.120
guy

45:03.120 --> 45:04.800
extended

45:04.800 --> 45:06.200
Ravast's

45:06.200 --> 45:06.620
ideas

45:06.620 --> 45:08.680
and it's

45:08.680 --> 45:09.020
really his

45:09.020 --> 45:09.540
concept that

45:09.540 --> 45:09.960
we call

45:09.960 --> 45:10.380
a rainbow

45:10.380 --> 45:10.900
table

45:10.900 --> 45:12.340
and it's

45:12.340 --> 45:12.720
really cool

45:12.720 --> 45:13.220
but it's

45:13.220 --> 45:13.640
a sort of

45:13.640 --> 45:14.080
subset of

45:14.080 --> 45:14.760
this generalized

45:14.760 --> 45:16.500
concept of

45:16.500 --> 45:17.560
a sort of

45:17.560 --> 45:18.240
efficient way

45:18.240 --> 45:21.260
to pre-compute

45:21.260 --> 45:23.060
hashes or

45:23.060 --> 45:25.140
ciphered texts

45:25.140 --> 45:26.120
for cryptidial

45:26.120 --> 45:27.940
and it really

45:27.940 --> 45:28.520
is kind of

45:28.520 --> 45:28.900
cool

45:28.900 --> 45:30.240
and kind of

45:30.240 --> 45:31.500
I mean a lot

45:31.500 --> 45:32.220
of people think

45:32.220 --> 45:32.740
you know the

45:32.740 --> 45:34.060
internet age

45:34.060 --> 45:34.840
we're inventing

45:34.840 --> 45:35.340
new things

45:35.340 --> 45:36.060
every day

45:36.060 --> 45:36.820
and technology

45:36.820 --> 45:37.560
is breaking

45:37.560 --> 45:38.200
so quickly

45:38.200 --> 45:39.160
I find it

45:39.160 --> 45:40.120
interesting that

45:40.120 --> 45:41.340
we're the

45:41.340 --> 45:42.100
fundamental basis

45:42.100 --> 45:42.620
of this

45:42.620 --> 45:43.300
everybody thinks

45:43.300 --> 45:44.380
this rainbow

45:44.380 --> 45:45.140
table is some

45:45.140 --> 45:45.620
new thing

45:45.620 --> 45:46.260
that it's based

45:46.260 --> 45:46.680
on actually

45:46.680 --> 45:47.220
something from

45:47.220 --> 45:48.180
1980 did you

45:48.180 --> 45:48.680
say that was

45:48.680 --> 45:49.420
worked on in the

45:49.420 --> 45:50.380
late 70s to get

45:50.380 --> 45:51.100
to that 1980

45:51.100 --> 45:51.640
release

45:51.640 --> 45:53.500
that I think

45:53.500 --> 45:54.020
is incredible

45:54.020 --> 45:55.020
and that's why

45:55.020 --> 45:56.080
you know I

45:56.080 --> 45:57.060
always mention

45:57.060 --> 45:57.560
and find

45:57.560 --> 45:57.980
interesting

45:57.980 --> 45:58.620
mathematics

45:58.620 --> 45:59.300
and I write

45:59.300 --> 46:00.000
articles and

46:00.000 --> 46:00.440
stuff on

46:00.440 --> 46:01.240
statistics and

46:01.240 --> 46:01.960
math is because

46:01.960 --> 46:02.720
fundamentally

46:02.720 --> 46:04.220
math is the

46:04.220 --> 46:05.440
basis for so

46:05.440 --> 46:06.620
many things

46:06.620 --> 46:07.240
that we find

46:07.240 --> 46:08.180
interesting today

46:08.180 --> 46:09.660
it's very

46:09.660 --> 46:10.880
unappreciated by

46:10.880 --> 46:11.880
computer programmers

46:11.880 --> 46:12.740
or computer

46:12.740 --> 46:13.800
geeks or

46:13.800 --> 46:14.440
hackers or

46:14.440 --> 46:14.940
whatever if you

46:14.940 --> 46:15.420
ask me I

46:15.420 --> 46:16.320
think mathematics

46:16.320 --> 46:17.100
is just the

46:17.100 --> 46:18.260
key to

46:18.260 --> 46:19.360
finding all of

46:19.360 --> 46:20.040
this new stuff

46:20.040 --> 46:21.000
especially when

46:21.000 --> 46:21.400
it comes to

46:21.400 --> 46:22.340
cryptography

46:22.340 --> 46:24.300
yeah I mean I

46:24.300 --> 46:25.120
think that if

46:25.120 --> 46:25.580
you are a

46:25.580 --> 46:26.140
computer person

46:26.140 --> 46:26.820
I was a

46:26.820 --> 46:27.780
when I was in

46:27.780 --> 46:28.480
high school

46:28.480 --> 46:29.800
you know I

46:29.800 --> 46:30.300
was very into

46:30.300 --> 46:31.060
computers but I

46:31.060 --> 46:31.920
wasn't like the

46:31.920 --> 46:32.860
most stellar

46:32.860 --> 46:33.600
math student

46:33.600 --> 46:35.880
and you know my

46:35.880 --> 46:36.520
teachers used to

46:36.520 --> 46:37.500
say you know

46:37.500 --> 46:37.920
well you're never

46:37.920 --> 46:38.820
going to accomplish

46:38.820 --> 46:39.240
anything in

46:39.240 --> 46:39.840
computers if you're

46:39.840 --> 46:40.380
not good at math

46:40.380 --> 46:41.140
and I said you

46:41.140 --> 46:41.780
know I felt like

46:41.780 --> 46:42.320
computers were

46:42.320 --> 46:43.560
really a lot about

46:43.560 --> 46:44.260
being creative

46:44.260 --> 46:46.100
but the fact is

46:46.100 --> 46:47.240
that I had a way

46:47.240 --> 46:47.920
of thinking about

46:47.920 --> 46:48.780
computer problems

46:48.780 --> 46:49.480
that was very

46:49.480 --> 46:49.920
logical

46:50.040 --> 46:52.880
and when I

46:52.880 --> 46:53.460
went to college

46:53.460 --> 46:55.240
I did a huge

46:55.240 --> 46:55.920
amount of math

46:55.920 --> 46:57.740
and you know

46:57.740 --> 46:58.340
basically learned

46:58.340 --> 47:00.020
to love it

47:00.020 --> 47:01.320
basically by

47:01.320 --> 47:01.980
bringing it

47:01.980 --> 47:02.420
from a fire

47:02.420 --> 47:02.720
hose

47:02.720 --> 47:04.740
but the thing

47:04.740 --> 47:05.200
is that

47:05.200 --> 47:06.880
you know I

47:06.880 --> 47:07.500
found that

47:07.500 --> 47:08.200
you know my

47:08.200 --> 47:09.300
natural way of

47:09.300 --> 47:09.800
thinking about

47:09.800 --> 47:10.500
computer problems

47:10.500 --> 47:12.500
was in a way

47:12.500 --> 47:13.600
related to the

47:13.600 --> 47:14.280
appropriate way

47:14.280 --> 47:14.580
of how to

47:14.580 --> 47:15.260
think about math

47:15.260 --> 47:16.120
but math wasn't

47:16.120 --> 47:16.800
presented to me

47:16.800 --> 47:17.700
in the right way

47:17.700 --> 47:18.960
I guess in school

47:18.960 --> 47:20.160
you know they

47:20.160 --> 47:20.600
didn't really

47:20.600 --> 47:20.880
make it

47:20.880 --> 47:21.300
interesting

47:21.300 --> 47:23.020
and you know

47:23.020 --> 47:24.000
there's this

47:24.000 --> 47:25.040
language that

47:25.040 --> 47:26.020
you use in

47:26.020 --> 47:26.860
mathematics to

47:26.860 --> 47:27.860
express mathematical

47:27.860 --> 47:29.140
concepts and

47:29.140 --> 47:29.740
you know I

47:29.740 --> 47:30.540
never sort of

47:30.540 --> 47:30.940
learned the

47:30.940 --> 47:31.940
language or

47:31.940 --> 47:32.400
learned to

47:32.400 --> 47:33.540
express my

47:33.540 --> 47:34.360
sort of logical

47:34.360 --> 47:36.200
ideas in the

47:36.200 --> 47:37.000
language of math

47:37.000 --> 47:38.260
and so you know

47:38.260 --> 47:40.000
once I learned the

47:40.000 --> 47:40.760
language by force

47:40.760 --> 47:41.960
I found it fit a

47:41.960 --> 47:42.260
lot of the

47:42.260 --> 47:42.720
thinking that I

47:42.720 --> 47:43.160
was doing really

47:43.160 --> 47:44.640
well but it

47:44.640 --> 47:45.360
was just that it

47:45.360 --> 47:46.200
was not something

47:46.200 --> 47:46.700
that I was

47:46.700 --> 47:48.940
motivated to

47:48.940 --> 47:49.820
study until

47:49.820 --> 47:50.820
and I mean I

47:50.820 --> 47:51.260
think that for

47:51.260 --> 47:51.800
computer people

47:51.800 --> 47:52.620
cryptography is a

47:52.620 --> 47:53.480
really great way to

47:53.480 --> 47:54.300
get into math

47:54.300 --> 47:55.620
because we you

47:55.620 --> 47:56.140
know because we

47:56.140 --> 47:56.980
think cryptography is

47:56.980 --> 47:58.580
interesting you

47:58.580 --> 47:59.000
know all these

47:59.000 --> 47:59.720
computer security

47:59.720 --> 48:00.480
protocols are

48:00.480 --> 48:01.500
sort of rooted in

48:01.500 --> 48:03.280
it and it's

48:03.280 --> 48:04.220
neat and it's

48:04.220 --> 48:05.100
kind of you know

48:05.100 --> 48:06.260
you know spy

48:06.260 --> 48:07.800
versus spy stuff

48:07.800 --> 48:09.620
so you know it's

48:09.620 --> 48:10.420
kind of sexy

48:10.420 --> 48:12.440
you know and so

48:12.440 --> 48:14.580
people you know

48:14.580 --> 48:16.180
may spend time

48:16.180 --> 48:17.180
you know reading

48:17.180 --> 48:17.620
it because they

48:17.620 --> 48:18.340
find it interesting

48:18.340 --> 48:19.140
and find themselves

48:19.140 --> 48:20.240
staring at these

48:20.240 --> 48:21.900
complex equations

48:21.900 --> 48:23.520
and say how do I

48:23.520 --> 48:24.200
decipher that

48:24.200 --> 48:24.820
what does that

48:24.820 --> 48:26.840
mean and find

48:26.840 --> 48:27.960
themselves or find

48:27.960 --> 48:28.780
this becomes a

48:28.780 --> 48:29.460
gateway for them

48:29.460 --> 48:31.760
to really you

48:31.760 --> 48:32.760
know studying you

48:32.760 --> 48:33.660
know more basic

48:33.660 --> 48:34.620
math concepts and

48:34.620 --> 48:35.560
building up that

48:35.560 --> 48:36.660
sort of vocabulary of

48:36.660 --> 48:37.360
that language that

48:37.360 --> 48:38.260
they use to express

48:38.260 --> 48:39.180
equations in so

48:39.180 --> 48:41.480
right and you

48:41.480 --> 48:42.020
know a lot even

48:42.020 --> 48:42.800
the people that I

48:42.800 --> 48:43.900
know I know a lot

48:43.900 --> 48:44.860
of people that claim

48:44.860 --> 48:45.760
to be into

48:45.760 --> 48:46.640
cryptography know

48:46.640 --> 48:48.020
and all that you

48:48.020 --> 48:48.560
know they know

48:48.560 --> 48:49.920
that you know they

48:49.920 --> 48:50.560
make statements like

48:50.560 --> 48:51.900
oh RSA is better

48:51.900 --> 48:53.760
than Shaw is better

48:53.760 --> 48:54.700
than this or this

48:54.700 --> 48:55.440
is used for that

48:55.440 --> 48:56.100
but they don't

48:56.100 --> 48:57.100
understand that the

48:57.100 --> 48:57.940
mathematics upon

48:57.940 --> 48:59.000
which they are based

48:59.000 --> 48:59.660
which is something

48:59.660 --> 49:00.520
that I don't know

49:00.520 --> 49:01.640
me I just want to

49:01.640 --> 49:02.260
know that kind of

49:02.260 --> 49:02.860
stuff I find it

49:02.860 --> 49:03.440
interesting maybe

49:03.440 --> 49:04.220
that's a personality

49:04.220 --> 49:05.580
quirk but again

49:05.580 --> 49:06.840
I mean I think that

49:06.840 --> 49:07.680
this that's like I

49:07.680 --> 49:08.160
was saying in the

49:08.160 --> 49:08.740
beginning that's what

49:08.740 --> 49:09.600
this scene is about

49:09.600 --> 49:11.060
and you know the

49:11.060 --> 49:12.080
you know cryptography

49:12.080 --> 49:13.360
is a field that

49:13.360 --> 49:14.280
you can plunge

49:14.280 --> 49:15.320
into that can

49:15.320 --> 49:16.340
consume your whole

49:16.340 --> 49:17.940
life there's no

49:17.940 --> 49:20.200
limit to how deep

49:20.200 --> 49:20.980
you can go with

49:20.980 --> 49:22.180
this stuff how

49:22.180 --> 49:22.980
challenging it can

49:22.980 --> 49:24.360
become if you're

49:24.360 --> 49:25.340
really interested in

49:25.340 --> 49:27.840
it and so you know

49:27.840 --> 49:29.260
if you you know

49:29.260 --> 49:29.880
it's not I mean

49:29.880 --> 49:30.780
it's if it's some

49:30.780 --> 49:31.600
you know it's if

49:31.600 --> 49:32.500
you get bored with

49:32.500 --> 49:33.440
cryptography you're

49:33.440 --> 49:34.600
you're you're not

49:34.600 --> 49:35.280
looking at it in the

49:35.280 --> 49:36.040
right way I think

49:36.040 --> 49:38.360
well and let's

49:38.360 --> 49:39.240
move into the

49:39.240 --> 49:40.680
the application of

49:40.680 --> 49:41.560
cryptography tonight

49:41.560 --> 49:42.200
that we're talking

49:42.200 --> 49:42.860
about which is

49:42.860 --> 49:43.740
rainbow tables once

49:43.740 --> 49:45.860
again and rainbow

49:45.860 --> 49:46.620
tables a lot of

49:46.620 --> 49:47.600
people and see I

49:47.600 --> 49:48.360
actually posed this

49:48.360 --> 49:49.460
question in IRC and

49:49.460 --> 49:50.160
you get some pretty

49:50.160 --> 49:52.300
responses like well

49:52.300 --> 49:53.560
this is all it is it's

49:53.560 --> 49:54.760
that simple what's to

49:54.760 --> 49:55.440
talk about you know

49:55.440 --> 49:56.380
there's not a lot of

49:56.380 --> 49:57.160
detail well actually

49:57.160 --> 49:58.260
there is because when

49:58.260 --> 49:59.040
you talk about how

49:59.040 --> 49:59.820
and why they work

49:59.820 --> 50:00.340
that's where the

50:00.340 --> 50:01.000
detail is and the

50:01.000 --> 50:02.620
interesting part is to

50:02.620 --> 50:04.980
me so kind of a

50:04.980 --> 50:05.840
disclaimer a warning

50:05.840 --> 50:06.460
some of this might

50:06.460 --> 50:07.580
get kind of dry like

50:07.580 --> 50:08.500
like Desi is referring

50:08.500 --> 50:09.260
to on the radio it's

50:09.260 --> 50:09.920
kind of hard to

50:09.920 --> 50:10.360
illustrate on the

50:10.360 --> 50:10.880
radio we're going to

50:10.880 --> 50:11.600
give it our best shot

50:11.600 --> 50:13.220
and see if we can't

50:13.220 --> 50:14.600
explain it let's talk

50:14.600 --> 50:15.360
about kind of an

50:15.360 --> 50:16.640
overview of what it

50:16.640 --> 50:17.580
is first of all this

50:17.580 --> 50:19.500
is first of all let me

50:19.500 --> 50:20.160
let me put a couple

50:20.160 --> 50:21.480
facts out there to

50:21.480 --> 50:22.500
keep in mind as we go

50:22.500 --> 50:23.300
along first of all

50:23.300 --> 50:24.380
this this is something

50:24.380 --> 50:25.240
that only works for

50:25.240 --> 50:27.480
hashing algorithms it's

50:27.480 --> 50:29.180
something that is only

50:29.180 --> 50:30.000
going to work for a

50:30.000 --> 50:31.360
fixed an algorithm

50:31.360 --> 50:31.860
that's going to

50:31.860 --> 50:33.320
produce a fixed value

50:33.320 --> 50:34.400
a fixed hash every

50:34.400 --> 50:35.400
time a hash of course

50:35.400 --> 50:37.280
being a a cipher text

50:37.280 --> 50:39.140
representation of like

50:39.140 --> 50:40.280
a password for example

50:40.280 --> 50:41.740
when you create a

50:41.740 --> 50:42.540
password it's going to

50:42.540 --> 50:43.040
run it through this

50:43.040 --> 50:43.680
algorithm and it's

50:43.680 --> 50:44.340
going to generate a

50:44.340 --> 50:45.580
hashed version of it

50:45.580 --> 50:46.600
an obfuscated version

50:46.600 --> 50:47.280
of it however you want

50:47.280 --> 50:50.480
to refer to it and

50:50.480 --> 50:51.380
some examples of

50:51.380 --> 50:52.360
things like that are

50:52.360 --> 50:54.300
like MD5 which is

50:54.300 --> 50:55.780
message digest that's

50:55.780 --> 50:56.700
one of the most common

50:56.700 --> 50:59.540
ones SHA LM which is

50:59.540 --> 51:00.560
Windows land manager or

51:00.560 --> 51:02.080
NT passwords that's

51:02.080 --> 51:02.900
really I think the

51:02.900 --> 51:03.880
one thing that you

51:03.880 --> 51:04.640
see most commonly

51:04.640 --> 51:06.900
used by rainbow tables

51:06.900 --> 51:07.660
most people will use

51:07.660 --> 51:09.320
it for NT Windows NT

51:09.320 --> 51:10.900
password but one of

51:10.900 --> 51:11.580
the ones that I find

51:11.580 --> 51:12.740
interesting was my SQL

51:12.740 --> 51:14.640
actually uses a system

51:14.640 --> 51:15.640
that can be this can be

51:15.640 --> 51:16.860
used on so and there

51:16.860 --> 51:18.120
are others besides that

51:18.120 --> 51:21.220
the important thing to

51:21.220 --> 51:21.920
understand about a

51:21.920 --> 51:22.780
hash function is that

51:22.780 --> 51:23.800
it's a one-way function

51:23.800 --> 51:25.440
you take information it

51:25.440 --> 51:26.780
goes through this

51:26.780 --> 51:27.600
mathematical

51:27.600 --> 51:28.920
manipulation and you

51:28.920 --> 51:30.060
get junk out the other

51:30.060 --> 51:31.640
side and it's very

51:31.640 --> 51:33.900
difficult to if you have

51:33.900 --> 51:35.780
the junk to come up to

51:35.780 --> 51:36.800
figure out what the

51:36.800 --> 51:39.200
thing that went in was to

51:39.200 --> 51:41.500
begin with and so it

51:41.500 --> 51:42.260
gives you the security

51:42.260 --> 51:43.400
property and once you

51:43.400 --> 51:44.480
send it through the junk

51:44.480 --> 51:47.160
and out the other side

51:47.160 --> 51:48.540
it's very difficult for

51:48.540 --> 51:49.320
people to get back

51:49.320 --> 51:52.280
one game that a friend of

51:52.280 --> 51:54.000
mine and I played at a

51:54.000 --> 51:55.460
conference once was to

51:55.460 --> 51:57.240
take an MD5 hash of our

51:57.240 --> 51:59.120
of our name and write it

51:59.120 --> 52:01.800
on our badge and so if

52:01.800 --> 52:02.840
you didn't know who we

52:02.840 --> 52:04.760
were that MD5 hash wasn't

52:04.760 --> 52:05.720
going to help you figure us

52:05.720 --> 52:07.480
out you know because you

52:07.480 --> 52:08.600
can't get back from that

52:08.600 --> 52:12.060
hash to a nickname but if

52:12.060 --> 52:13.900
you if you thought you knew

52:13.900 --> 52:15.660
who we were you could take

52:15.660 --> 52:16.860
the name that you thought

52:16.860 --> 52:19.020
was our name and take the

52:19.020 --> 52:20.580
MD5 hash of it and see if

52:20.580 --> 52:21.360
it was the same as what

52:21.360 --> 52:21.940
we've written on our

52:21.940 --> 52:24.280
name tag and so we thought

52:24.280 --> 52:24.740
that was kind of

52:24.740 --> 52:26.420
interesting and did

52:26.420 --> 52:27.120
anybody get it

52:27.120 --> 52:30.220
no but you know whatever

52:30.220 --> 52:31.220
we got drunk and you

52:31.220 --> 52:31.960
know mostly forgot about

52:31.960 --> 52:32.660
it but it was kind of a

52:32.660 --> 52:33.100
neat idea

52:33.100 --> 52:34.480
yeah that's pretty much

52:34.480 --> 52:35.340
how the conference is

52:35.340 --> 52:39.280
all right so so rainbow

52:39.280 --> 52:40.400
table so those are some

52:40.400 --> 52:41.640
some facts to think about

52:41.640 --> 52:43.660
up up front the one way

52:43.660 --> 52:44.540
is good excellent point

52:44.540 --> 52:46.380
and what the rainbow

52:46.380 --> 52:48.080
table does basically is

52:48.080 --> 52:50.040
this is when you

52:50.040 --> 52:51.100
traditionally think of

52:51.100 --> 52:52.800
cracking a password the

52:52.800 --> 52:54.100
first thing of course is

52:54.100 --> 52:55.840
brute force and that is

52:55.840 --> 52:56.860
an application of some

52:56.860 --> 52:57.660
kind that's going to

52:57.660 --> 52:59.440
simply throw combinations

52:59.440 --> 53:01.820
at a hash password or any

53:01.820 --> 53:02.660
kind of password for that

53:02.660 --> 53:04.000
matter and try to just

53:04.000 --> 53:06.760
brute force it usually by

53:06.760 --> 53:08.020
having a dictionary file

53:08.020 --> 53:08.900
handy where you're pulling

53:08.900 --> 53:10.720
in common words it's one

53:10.720 --> 53:12.040
of the reasons people always

53:12.040 --> 53:13.540
say good password policies

53:13.540 --> 53:14.660
use special characters

53:14.660 --> 53:16.940
use mixed case use spaces

53:16.940 --> 53:19.640
numbers letters mixed case

53:19.640 --> 53:22.580
etc etc because if you're

53:22.580 --> 53:23.460
using something that's a

53:23.460 --> 53:24.200
common word from a

53:24.200 --> 53:26.100
dictionary then dictionary

53:26.100 --> 53:27.040
attacks can be very

53:27.040 --> 53:28.080
successful against those

53:28.080 --> 53:30.640
type words obviously well

53:30.640 --> 53:32.460
when you have stronger

53:32.460 --> 53:34.120
passwords and keep that

53:34.120 --> 53:35.060
dictionary in mind we're

53:35.060 --> 53:35.740
going to come back to that

53:35.740 --> 53:36.360
in a second because

53:36.360 --> 53:37.240
Desi has actually made a

53:37.240 --> 53:38.000
really good point to me

53:38.000 --> 53:39.480
before we started recording

53:39.480 --> 53:42.380
but with the rainbow tables

53:42.380 --> 53:43.540
when you've got a more

53:43.540 --> 53:46.260
complex password you've got

53:46.260 --> 53:48.260
so many possibilities to go

53:48.260 --> 53:49.460
through especially if you're

53:49.460 --> 53:51.960
just let's call it a random

53:51.960 --> 53:53.320
let's say it's really a bunch

53:53.320 --> 53:55.360
it's not even close to a it's

53:55.360 --> 53:58.440
not like password 571 it's

53:58.440 --> 54:01.960
actually p5j underscore if it's

54:01.960 --> 54:05.100
really just weird stuff rainbow

54:05.100 --> 54:06.720
tables can be more effective on

54:06.720 --> 54:10.000
that type of password and the what

54:10.000 --> 54:13.160
it is basically is doing all of

54:13.160 --> 54:15.320
the work up front instead of

54:15.320 --> 54:16.840
getting on a system and trying

54:16.840 --> 54:18.400
to do a brute force attack right

54:18.400 --> 54:20.100
then and there on the fly you're

54:20.100 --> 54:21.860
doing all of the work up front to

54:21.860 --> 54:23.160
generate what's called a rainbow

54:23.160 --> 54:25.020
table and we're going to talk a

54:25.020 --> 54:26.820
little bit about what that is but

54:26.820 --> 54:29.220
think very large tables of

54:29.220 --> 54:32.080
predetermined hashes and that that

54:32.080 --> 54:33.860
is overly simplifying it but for now

54:33.860 --> 54:35.400
keep that in mind you've got a bunch

54:35.400 --> 54:37.720
of predetermined hashes and

54:37.720 --> 54:40.720
obviously it's going to be huge

54:40.720 --> 54:43.020
huge files I mean when you're

54:43.020 --> 54:44.720
talking about how many possible

54:44.720 --> 54:46.560
combinations of passwords they are

54:46.560 --> 54:48.620
you're talking gigantic files

54:48.620 --> 54:50.360
gigabytes and gigabytes of data

54:50.360 --> 54:54.400
however depending on exactly how you

54:54.400 --> 54:55.800
make them and the variables

54:55.800 --> 54:56.940
involved which I'm going to talk

54:56.940 --> 54:59.620
about next you can create a very

54:59.620 --> 55:01.400
high percentage chance that almost

55:02.000 --> 55:03.680
every combination of password can

55:03.680 --> 55:06.140
be cracked depending on how big you

55:06.140 --> 55:08.020
make your tables and how exhaustive

55:08.020 --> 55:11.320
you set the variables to be now the

55:11.320 --> 55:12.780
other factor in this is yes you're

55:12.780 --> 55:15.020
doing all the work up front but it's

55:15.020 --> 55:18.420
still a lot of freaking work you need

55:18.420 --> 55:19.940
a lot of power to generate these

55:19.940 --> 55:21.660
tables you're still doing work it's

55:21.660 --> 55:23.620
just you're doing it up front to put

55:23.620 --> 55:25.260
them in big files so that when it

55:25.260 --> 55:27.280
comes time to actually crack passwords

55:27.280 --> 55:29.440
you're using the memory of the

55:29.440 --> 55:31.540
computer to parse through all these

55:31.540 --> 55:34.100
huge tables to find what you're

55:34.100 --> 55:37.180
looking for so I mentioned earlier

55:37.180 --> 55:40.280
this works on on hashed passwords but

55:40.280 --> 55:41.920
it will not work for any hash that's

55:41.920 --> 55:44.820
been salted and do you want to kind of

55:44.820 --> 55:49.220
explain what salting is sure well on a

55:49.220 --> 55:51.360
unix machine but see a lot of times

55:51.360 --> 55:53.700
hashes are used as follows you take

55:53.700 --> 55:55.240
someone's password and you hash it and

55:55.240 --> 55:56.720
you store it in the password file so that

55:56.720 --> 55:58.000
way you don't have to store their actual

55:58.000 --> 56:00.300
password in the password file and so

56:00.300 --> 56:01.760
somebody sees the password file they

56:01.760 --> 56:04.140
don't get everyone's password and then

56:04.140 --> 56:06.480
when they log in the login process

56:06.480 --> 56:08.720
takes their password and hashes it and

56:08.720 --> 56:10.460
compares it against the hash that's in

56:10.460 --> 56:12.920
the password file and if they're the

56:12.920 --> 56:15.620
same you know it lets you in and so

56:15.620 --> 56:17.240
unix machines you know have been doing

56:17.240 --> 56:21.240
this since the 70s are there and they

56:21.240 --> 56:26.700
you know they have a salted hash which

56:26.700 --> 56:27.860
means that there's a couple of numbers

56:27.860 --> 56:31.640
numbers that are appended to the to your

56:31.640 --> 56:34.340
password before it goes through the

56:34.340 --> 56:38.420
one-way hash function and that makes

56:38.420 --> 56:42.260
things a little complex you know for you

56:42.260 --> 56:44.480
know basically the password love for

56:44.480 --> 56:47.180
instance the md5 hash of the password

56:47.180 --> 56:49.280
love is always the same but if you add

56:49.280 --> 56:51.900
the salt of a couple of characters then

56:51.900 --> 56:53.980
you have you know maybe it's two

56:53.980 --> 56:56.900
characters then you've got you know

56:56.900 --> 57:02.460
you know 16 bits of entropy that you've

57:02.460 --> 57:04.640
added in addition to whatever the

57:04.640 --> 57:06.660
password is you know just a huge number

57:06.660 --> 57:08.180
of different ways that the hash result

57:08.180 --> 57:10.860
could turn out and so reno tables tend

57:10.860 --> 57:12.780
to break down when you're when you're

57:12.780 --> 57:15.220
talking about that much that much added

57:15.220 --> 57:18.180
complexity so usually when people are

57:18.180 --> 57:23.500
cracking salted hashes they they you know

57:23.500 --> 57:24.960
they just kind of they do their

57:24.960 --> 57:26.960
calculations on the fly using the salt

57:26.960 --> 57:29.500
that was that appears in the password

57:29.500 --> 57:33.180
file they generate a hash of their

57:33.180 --> 57:37.300
dictionary and and compare the results

57:37.300 --> 57:39.060
of that with what would appear to the

57:39.060 --> 57:40.740
password file and check to see if they're

57:40.740 --> 57:45.040
the same but you know Microsoft you know

57:45.040 --> 57:47.460
when they when they when they it's really

57:47.460 --> 57:49.340
not their fault actually uh the land

57:49.340 --> 57:51.220
manager hash is older than that man

57:51.220 --> 57:53.500
from the 80s or wherever the this net

57:53.500 --> 57:56.640
bio stack came from uh you know but

57:56.640 --> 57:59.240
that that hash is it doesn't is not

57:59.240 --> 58:02.880
salted and so it's a lot weaker uh than

58:02.880 --> 58:05.560
a than a unix password hash there you

58:05.560 --> 58:06.920
know for each given password that

58:06.920 --> 58:08.760
someone might have there's only one

58:08.760 --> 58:14.560
possible uh result and so uh you know

58:14.560 --> 58:17.880
it's possible to i mean it's uh when

58:17.880 --> 58:19.400
you when you the real advantage of

58:19.400 --> 58:21.740
rainbow tables is this um you know

58:21.740 --> 58:24.100
because there's no salt you could take

58:24.100 --> 58:26.840
the entire list of possible passwords

58:26.840 --> 58:29.640
uh and you can hash them all and you

58:29.640 --> 58:31.520
can have this database with every

58:31.520 --> 58:33.540
possible hash result it would take you a

58:33.540 --> 58:35.880
while to generate it but um you know

58:35.880 --> 58:38.440
ultimately uh you know you could do it

58:38.440 --> 58:41.360
and and the problem is that the that you

58:41.360 --> 58:44.500
have this huge file uh that would just

58:44.500 --> 58:46.940
take a massive massive amounts of space

58:46.940 --> 58:49.140
uh and would take you a very long time

58:49.140 --> 58:52.360
to search uh uh and it you know and of

58:52.360 --> 58:54.420
course generating it also would take you

58:54.420 --> 58:57.420
know extremely long period of time uh you

58:57.420 --> 59:00.360
know on the order of years so so um you

59:00.360 --> 59:03.660
know what you want to do is uh is is is cut

59:03.660 --> 59:05.700
the time down a little bit and the way you

59:05.700 --> 59:08.140
do that uh the way that rainbow tables

59:08.140 --> 59:10.340
help you do that is by reducing the amount

59:10.340 --> 59:12.860
of data that you have to search uh instead

59:12.860 --> 59:15.180
of having to store every single possible

59:15.180 --> 59:17.620
hash of every single possible password

59:17.620 --> 59:21.360
you only have to store a small percentage

59:21.360 --> 59:25.040
of them uh in memory and based on on those

59:25.040 --> 59:29.540
results you can easily uh find um uh you

59:29.540 --> 59:31.900
know the you know most of the hashes

59:31.900 --> 59:34.200
regardless of the fact that that you

59:34.200 --> 59:37.080
haven't stored um as much data it's sort

59:37.080 --> 59:38.860
of like a trade-off between the amount of

59:38.860 --> 59:40.360
memory that you have and the amount of

59:40.360 --> 59:43.320
processing power that you have uh and uh

59:43.320 --> 59:46.100
rainbow tables give you a really good sort

59:46.100 --> 59:48.300
of balance between the two that lets you uh

59:48.300 --> 59:50.280
lets you have a relatively small amount of

59:50.280 --> 59:52.740
data but get your results relatively quickly

59:52.740 --> 59:54.700
with you know a low amount of computation

59:54.700 --> 59:58.120
and and you referred of course to the the

59:58.120 --> 01:00:00.800
huge huge tables there are a couple

01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:03.960
variables that determine that and make your

01:00:03.960 --> 01:00:06.000
table size or define it now even on the

01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:08.760
smallest scale um they're going to be big

01:00:08.760 --> 01:00:12.180
tables we're talking i i would say probably

01:00:12.180 --> 01:00:15.720
one 660 meg to fit on a cd table might

01:00:15.720 --> 01:00:19.000
cover um a basic character set and the

01:00:19.000 --> 01:00:20.800
character set is one of the variables on

01:00:20.800 --> 01:00:23.040
creating these rainbow tables what

01:00:23.040 --> 01:00:25.660
characters do you know are going to be in

01:00:25.660 --> 01:00:28.140
the password certain um algorithms may or

01:00:28.140 --> 01:00:30.540
may not allow certain types of letters is it

01:00:30.540 --> 01:00:33.060
going to have and not only algorithms but

01:00:33.060 --> 01:00:35.860
more more to the point password policies at

01:00:35.860 --> 01:00:37.940
the company is are all the passwords

01:00:37.940 --> 01:00:40.860
converted to uppercase windows style for

01:00:40.860 --> 01:00:43.180
example are um the passwords going to

01:00:43.180 --> 01:00:44.820
allow mixed case are they going to allow

01:00:44.820 --> 01:00:46.860
numerics or they require numerics at the

01:00:46.860 --> 01:00:49.280
company what their password policy is does

01:00:49.280 --> 01:00:51.920
it require special characters well you

01:00:51.920 --> 01:00:55.920
develop your rainbow tables using well i'm

01:00:55.920 --> 01:00:57.660
going to simplify it to two important

01:00:57.660 --> 01:00:59.420
things one the algorithm that you're going

01:00:59.420 --> 01:01:02.100
to use what type of hash is it and let's

01:01:02.100 --> 01:01:05.380
say it's a an md5 for an argument's sake

01:01:05.380 --> 01:01:08.480
an md5 and then what character set are you

01:01:08.480 --> 01:01:09.940
going to use are you going to use simply

01:01:09.940 --> 01:01:12.280
26 characters for the 26 letters of the

01:01:12.280 --> 01:01:14.600
alphabet you know that there's no chance

01:01:14.600 --> 01:01:16.980
of numbers ever showing up let's say that

01:01:16.980 --> 01:01:18.260
let's say you're building one for your

01:01:18.260 --> 01:01:20.280
company to do password audits which is a

01:01:20.280 --> 01:01:22.260
valid application for this you're a

01:01:22.260 --> 01:01:23.700
security officer you want to make sure

01:01:23.700 --> 01:01:26.180
that that your employees are using good

01:01:26.180 --> 01:01:27.940
passwords or whatever which if you're

01:01:27.940 --> 01:01:29.420
using a basic character set you're not

01:01:29.420 --> 01:01:33.060
but it won't go there you want to do an

01:01:33.060 --> 01:01:34.480
audit to make sure everybody's changing

01:01:34.480 --> 01:01:35.760
their password or something every so

01:01:35.760 --> 01:01:39.160
often you can create a rainbow table

01:01:39.160 --> 01:01:41.000
based on just the character set of the

01:01:41.000 --> 01:01:44.920
26 alphabetic characters and it's going

01:01:44.920 --> 01:01:48.080
to make a pretty big file but not nearly as

01:01:48.080 --> 01:01:50.700
big as if you also know that you require

01:01:50.700 --> 01:01:53.100
them to put a number in their password if

01:01:53.100 --> 01:01:54.980
they have love is their password and you

01:01:54.980 --> 01:01:57.200
know it's an easy word to figure out and

01:01:57.200 --> 01:02:00.520
it's um it's all alphabetic characters

01:02:00.520 --> 01:02:02.520
then you make a smaller table there's no

01:02:02.520 --> 01:02:04.240
point in checking for numbers if you know

01:02:04.240 --> 01:02:07.040
it doesn't exist however if you their

01:02:07.040 --> 01:02:09.160
password requires a number and it's love

01:02:09.160 --> 01:02:12.680
14 then you add the numeric characters or

01:02:12.680 --> 01:02:14.660
if it requires special characters or there's a

01:02:14.660 --> 01:02:16.580
potential of special characters you want

01:02:16.580 --> 01:02:19.320
to add those to the character set to you

01:02:19.320 --> 01:02:21.740
that you use to build your table so love

01:02:21.740 --> 01:02:25.320
underscore 14 exclamation point becomes a

01:02:25.320 --> 01:02:27.200
more complex password and you have to

01:02:27.200 --> 01:02:30.120
build larger and larger tables to account

01:02:30.120 --> 01:02:34.400
for this and your success probability

01:02:34.400 --> 01:02:37.020
falls into play here the smaller you make

01:02:37.020 --> 01:02:39.040
the tables the lower percent chance the

01:02:39.040 --> 01:02:41.220
lower space that you're making available

01:02:41.220 --> 01:02:44.200
to use these passwords it's going to try to

01:02:44.200 --> 01:02:46.080
smart do it as smartly as it can but

01:02:46.880 --> 01:02:48.500
you're going to basically it's a law of

01:02:48.500 --> 01:02:51.260
diminishing returns another statistical

01:02:51.260 --> 01:02:53.340
term mathematical term your law of

01:02:53.340 --> 01:02:55.660
diminishing returns is the smaller this

01:02:55.660 --> 01:02:58.640
table is you're going to get a base

01:02:58.640 --> 01:03:00.680
percentage chance of success let's say

01:03:00.680 --> 01:03:02.480
it's you start with 50 percent chance of

01:03:02.480 --> 01:03:05.120
success when it's a five gigs file I don't

01:03:05.120 --> 01:03:08.760
know as you move towards 60 percent it's

01:03:08.760 --> 01:03:10.380
not going to take another 10 gigs it may

01:03:10.380 --> 01:03:12.500
take 12 gigs and then for you to get a

01:03:12.500 --> 01:03:14.280
70 percent success rate it's going to

01:03:14.280 --> 01:03:16.580
take even more so the closer you get

01:03:16.580 --> 01:03:19.400
towards that 100 percent success rate the

01:03:19.400 --> 01:03:23.080
larger your files are going to be so if

01:03:23.080 --> 01:03:25.440
you go for absolute perfection a

01:03:25.440 --> 01:03:27.880
character set that includes every special

01:03:27.880 --> 01:03:29.900
character including a space people

01:03:29.900 --> 01:03:32.340
forget about the space special characters

01:03:32.340 --> 01:03:35.660
spaces numbers alpha huge character set a

01:03:35.660 --> 01:03:37.820
complex algorithm and you want a hundred

01:03:37.820 --> 01:03:40.500
percent success probability first of all I

01:03:40.500 --> 01:03:41.920
don't know that you can actually get a

01:03:41.920 --> 01:03:43.820
hundred percent I'll stay I'm not sure do

01:03:43.820 --> 01:03:46.200
you know if that's if it's possible I

01:03:46.200 --> 01:03:51.280
think it is you run into a little bit of

01:03:51.280 --> 01:03:56.180
trouble at the edges with basically chains

01:03:56.180 --> 01:03:59.640
merging you through that you can run into

01:03:59.640 --> 01:04:02.240
some limitations in terms of the space you

01:04:02.240 --> 01:04:06.240
can search but you know in general you can

01:04:06.240 --> 01:04:09.020
get very close to that yeah so there comes a

01:04:09.020 --> 01:04:10.680
point where you're saying you know what if I

01:04:10.680 --> 01:04:13.460
can crack 97 percent which is a number I

01:04:13.460 --> 01:04:16.980
see quite frequently or even 70 80 percent

01:04:16.980 --> 01:04:18.720
whatever you're you're comfortable with

01:04:18.720 --> 01:04:20.820
you generate that table and that's about

01:04:20.820 --> 01:04:22.300
the success rate you're going to have in

01:04:22.300 --> 01:04:23.800
cracking it now again if you go with

01:04:23.800 --> 01:04:26.580
simpler character sets and lower file size

01:04:26.580 --> 01:04:28.160
you can still get a higher success rate

01:04:28.160 --> 01:04:30.320
for that lower file size and when you

01:04:30.320 --> 01:04:33.300
increase both of those variables create

01:04:33.300 --> 01:04:34.940
more tables you're getting a higher

01:04:34.940 --> 01:04:37.240
percentage chance and the other thing

01:04:37.240 --> 01:04:38.820
that's important to note is that these

01:04:38.820 --> 01:04:41.560
tables are portable this is the other

01:04:41.560 --> 01:04:44.160
really cool thing there's no point in

01:04:44.160 --> 01:04:47.260
anybody ever recreating another rainbow

01:04:47.260 --> 01:04:49.880
table if someone's and has created it

01:04:49.880 --> 01:04:52.360
it's going to work universally we said

01:04:52.360 --> 01:04:54.680
earlier in the beginning that that hash

01:04:54.680 --> 01:04:56.480
that's generated with that algorithm is

01:04:56.480 --> 01:04:58.860
going to be universal if I create the

01:04:58.860 --> 01:05:01.500
password love on my machine and Decius

01:05:01.500 --> 01:05:03.120
creates it on his machine using that

01:05:03.120 --> 01:05:05.460
same algorithm with say Windows NT

01:05:05.460 --> 01:05:07.740
password it's going to create the same

01:05:07.740 --> 01:05:10.920
hash therefore the same tables are going

01:05:10.920 --> 01:05:13.120
to work on both of our machines so if

01:05:13.120 --> 01:05:14.620
you've ever been to maybe hacking

01:05:14.620 --> 01:05:16.400
conferences or seen websites where you

01:05:16.400 --> 01:05:19.880
can buy or download rainbow tables

01:05:19.880 --> 01:05:22.600
that's absolutely fine understand the

01:05:22.600 --> 01:05:24.080
character set that they've given you

01:05:24.080 --> 01:05:27.020
you know don't don't download or buy or

01:05:27.020 --> 01:05:29.300
whatever a CD that only has alpha

01:05:29.300 --> 01:05:31.140
numeric alpha numeric and you know your

01:05:31.140 --> 01:05:33.640
passwords have special characters you know

01:05:33.640 --> 01:05:34.860
but then there's that trade-off the

01:05:34.860 --> 01:05:36.520
size that comes in do you want to buy

01:05:36.520 --> 01:05:38.840
everything on one DVD or you're going

01:05:38.840 --> 01:05:40.980
to buy 20 DVDs how thorough do you want

01:05:40.980 --> 01:05:44.060
to get so the portability is an important

01:05:44.060 --> 01:05:46.700
thing and again the huge file size I

01:05:46.700 --> 01:05:49.540
can't emphasize that enough you could

01:05:49.540 --> 01:05:51.880
probably take 20 gigs if you wanted to

01:05:51.880 --> 01:05:54.680
go I would say if you wanted to get 90%

01:05:54.680 --> 01:05:58.120
success rate on a really full character

01:05:58.120 --> 01:06:00.300
set it would take at least 20 gigs of

01:06:00.300 --> 01:06:04.420
data to get you even I don't know 70% or

01:06:04.420 --> 01:06:06.140
higher maybe as high as 90% I don't

01:06:06.140 --> 01:06:07.500
even think you'd get that much out of

01:06:07.500 --> 01:06:10.260
20 gigs so to put it in perspective in

01:06:10.260 --> 01:06:14.220
the in the in the in the paper it depends

01:06:14.220 --> 01:06:17.400
it depends totally on the hash in the

01:06:17.400 --> 01:06:20.280
paper they were using the empty land

01:06:20.280 --> 01:06:22.700
manager hash and they they were able to

01:06:22.700 --> 01:06:27.920
crack 99% with with 1.5 megabits of data

01:06:27.920 --> 01:06:32.840
or sort of gigabits 1.5 gigs of data so so

01:06:32.840 --> 01:06:35.800
so you know when they they weren't

01:06:35.800 --> 01:06:37.740
running you know sort of one of the

01:06:37.740 --> 01:06:39.360
tools that's available they were they

01:06:39.360 --> 01:06:42.100
wrote their own code to sort of prove

01:06:42.100 --> 01:06:45.660
their concept but they you know they you

01:06:45.660 --> 01:06:48.880
know 1.5 gigs is is you know pretty

01:06:48.880 --> 01:06:50.920
manageable amount of space these days but

01:06:51.540 --> 01:06:53.020
you know if you're if you're talking

01:06:53.020 --> 01:06:55.680
about a different kind of hash that has

01:06:55.680 --> 01:06:59.600
larger like a you know Shaw you know

01:06:59.600 --> 01:07:02.160
512 hash I guess produces I think it

01:07:02.160 --> 01:07:05.580
produces longer output you know that's

01:07:05.580 --> 01:07:06.660
obviously going to take more space to

01:07:06.660 --> 01:07:07.780
store and so you're going to end up with

01:07:07.780 --> 01:07:10.560
bigger files yeah that's a good point

01:07:10.560 --> 01:07:11.980
there yeah the length of the of the

01:07:11.980 --> 01:07:13.400
hash that's generated is absolutely

01:07:13.400 --> 01:07:14.620
another variable that I didn't even

01:07:14.620 --> 01:07:15.600
think about you're absolutely right that's

01:07:15.600 --> 01:07:17.400
that's a good point as well as that as

01:07:17.400 --> 01:07:18.980
well as the length of the passwords in

01:07:18.980 --> 01:07:21.480
question I mean you know if you NT lane

01:07:21.480 --> 01:07:23.100
manager is a hard limit in terms of the

01:07:23.100 --> 01:07:25.220
length of passwords but if you've got some

01:07:25.220 --> 01:07:27.280
hashing algorithm and you're looking at

01:07:27.280 --> 01:07:29.460
longer and longer potential passwords

01:07:29.460 --> 01:07:33.860
that then that's going to require you

01:07:33.860 --> 01:07:35.720
know more hashes be done and so that's

01:07:35.720 --> 01:07:38.360
your table there all right well I'll tell

01:07:38.360 --> 01:07:40.720
you what let's go into a little bit now

01:07:40.720 --> 01:07:42.720
again this is kind of tough to do over

01:07:42.720 --> 01:07:47.140
the radio but we'll wait till the plane

01:07:47.140 --> 01:07:49.720
overhead passes but we're about it let's

01:07:49.720 --> 01:07:51.680
see we've got about 10 or 15 more

01:07:51.680 --> 01:07:53.860
minutes left and I I would like to

01:07:53.860 --> 01:07:56.320
discuss the the math part of this now

01:07:56.320 --> 01:07:59.420
understand that this is going to be kind

01:07:59.420 --> 01:08:01.400
of difficult to illustrate so we're

01:08:01.400 --> 01:08:02.860
going to do our best to see if we can

01:08:02.860 --> 01:08:05.360
make this make sense but this is pretty

01:08:05.360 --> 01:08:07.460
complex math again if you go back to the

01:08:07.460 --> 01:08:09.280
original paper if you really want to do

01:08:09.280 --> 01:08:12.200
some independent study do a search for

01:08:12.200 --> 01:08:14.680
Dr. Felipe I hope I'm pronouncing that

01:08:14.680 --> 01:08:18.280
right Oshlin he's gonna like rainbow

01:08:18.280 --> 01:08:20.320
tables the first link you're going to

01:08:20.320 --> 01:08:22.320
get off of Google will have a link to

01:08:22.320 --> 01:08:24.360
this paper yeah it's you can find it

01:08:24.360 --> 01:08:30.040
pretty easily but the I guess the two

01:08:30.040 --> 01:08:31.620
important things to keep in mind when I

01:08:31.620 --> 01:08:34.160
start are that that the whole point of

01:08:34.160 --> 01:08:37.100
this is to reduce is to is you know

01:08:37.100 --> 01:08:40.420
instead of storing a hash of every single

01:08:40.420 --> 01:08:42.580
possible password I want to restore less

01:08:42.580 --> 01:08:44.140
data than that and have to search less

01:08:44.140 --> 01:08:47.260
data than that you know even if you

01:08:47.260 --> 01:08:50.640
should tweak the settings out you know

01:08:50.640 --> 01:08:53.160
with your rainbow table generator so

01:08:53.160 --> 01:08:54.940
that you know you're generating huge

01:08:54.940 --> 01:08:57.900
tables that take up a lot of space the

01:08:57.900 --> 01:09:00.200
space that they your tables take up is a

01:09:00.200 --> 01:09:01.860
fraction of the space that they would

01:09:01.860 --> 01:09:04.680
take up if you were just storing ever

01:09:04.680 --> 01:09:07.000
all of the hashes in the password space

01:09:07.000 --> 01:09:09.940
that you're searching and so that's

01:09:09.940 --> 01:09:13.240
really the power of this technique and

01:09:13.240 --> 01:09:14.620
the second thing to keep in mind as we

01:09:14.620 --> 01:09:16.000
said is that a hash is a one-way

01:09:16.000 --> 01:09:19.360
function data goes in and it comes back

01:09:19.360 --> 01:09:22.720
out junk and that junk is always going to be

01:09:22.720 --> 01:09:24.580
the same if the input was the same the

01:09:24.580 --> 01:09:28.900
output's going to be the same and so the

01:09:28.900 --> 01:09:32.920
way it works is as follows you generate

01:09:32.920 --> 01:09:36.300
these things called chains they're hash

01:09:36.300 --> 01:09:41.740
chains and when you start with a potential

01:09:41.740 --> 01:09:45.480
password for example and you hash it and

01:09:45.480 --> 01:09:49.380
you get the result then you take that

01:09:49.380 --> 01:09:52.680
result and you hash it again and so you

01:09:52.680 --> 01:09:57.520
get the third result and you hash that

01:09:57.520 --> 01:09:59.560
again and you get the fourth result and

01:09:59.560 --> 01:10:01.120
you hash that again and get the fifth

01:10:01.120 --> 01:10:07.000
result and so in theory each one of these

01:10:07.000 --> 01:10:09.260
each one of these you have all these

01:10:09.260 --> 01:10:11.760
functions chained up in a row and for

01:10:11.760 --> 01:10:13.880
each one you have an input and an output

01:10:13.880 --> 01:10:16.400
the input is a potential key that you

01:10:16.400 --> 01:10:18.380
could be trying to that you could be

01:10:18.380 --> 01:10:20.920
looking for a potential password and the

01:10:20.920 --> 01:10:22.600
output is the hash that would be stored

01:10:22.600 --> 01:10:26.160
for those for that password and so you

01:10:26.160 --> 01:10:31.700
build these chains and you store in your

01:10:31.700 --> 01:10:34.240
you know and these chains can be 10,000

01:10:34.240 --> 01:10:39.040
hashes long for example and you build you

01:10:39.040 --> 01:10:41.800
know you know tens of thousands or

01:10:41.800 --> 01:10:45.420
hundreds of thousands of these chains and

01:10:45.420 --> 01:10:47.880
but when you what you store to disk are

01:10:47.880 --> 01:10:50.920
just the first and the last entry in each

01:10:50.920 --> 01:10:53.880
chain so that's where you get your sort of

01:10:53.880 --> 01:10:57.420
reduction in the in the space you have

01:10:57.420 --> 01:11:01.380
this table that has you know for each

01:11:01.380 --> 01:11:03.020
each one of these each one of these

01:11:03.020 --> 01:11:05.180
functions of the chain is a is a password

01:11:05.180 --> 01:11:08.780
and it's associated hash but all you have

01:11:08.780 --> 01:11:10.240
to do is store the first and last one in

01:11:10.240 --> 01:11:13.400
each chain and so the other say you know

01:11:13.400 --> 01:11:19.040
you know 9,999 that you threw out or

01:11:19.040 --> 01:11:21.400
98 that you threw out you don't have to

01:11:21.400 --> 01:11:22.740
keep them on disk and you don't have to

01:11:22.740 --> 01:11:24.900
search them and so that's really where

01:11:24.900 --> 01:11:26.420
you're getting your your performance

01:11:26.420 --> 01:11:30.620
enhancement from so let's say you're

01:11:30.620 --> 01:11:34.420
trying to crack a password hash that that

01:11:34.420 --> 01:11:37.800
you pulled off of a machine you've got

01:11:37.800 --> 01:11:40.860
this hash and what you do is you make a

01:11:40.860 --> 01:11:44.800
change starting with it you hash it and

01:11:44.800 --> 01:11:47.880
then you take the result and you hash that

01:11:47.880 --> 01:11:49.860
and you take the result and you hash that

01:11:49.860 --> 01:11:52.560
and so in our in our example we did this

01:11:52.560 --> 01:11:54.400
ten thousand times so you're going to do

01:11:54.400 --> 01:11:57.200
it ten thousand times and then for each

01:11:57.200 --> 01:12:01.100
of those ten thousand answers you're going

01:12:01.100 --> 01:12:04.020
to search your your tables that you

01:12:04.020 --> 01:12:08.340
stored and see if those that that

01:12:08.340 --> 01:12:11.280
password appears in it for any of the

01:12:11.280 --> 01:12:14.220
chains that you have as the last entry in

01:12:14.220 --> 01:12:19.860
the chain and so if you if you think about

01:12:19.860 --> 01:12:21.960
it when you when you get a match what

01:12:21.960 --> 01:12:26.540
that means is maybe I'll frame things a

01:12:26.540 --> 01:12:28.840
little bit more simply so that so that

01:12:28.840 --> 01:12:31.740
it's easy to think about let's say each

01:12:31.740 --> 01:12:33.640
one of the chains I originally generated

01:12:33.640 --> 01:12:36.780
five function they iterated the function

01:12:36.780 --> 01:12:40.320
five times so you've got you've got number

01:12:40.320 --> 01:12:42.880
one or number number one and number five

01:12:42.880 --> 01:12:46.200
stored in your in your database instead

01:12:46.200 --> 01:12:48.240
of ten thousand let's and let's say

01:12:48.240 --> 01:12:51.480
somewhere within that huge list of chains

01:12:51.480 --> 01:12:54.780
there's a chain that when I when I generated

01:12:54.780 --> 01:12:57.480
originally had the actual password that

01:12:57.480 --> 01:12:59.900
I'm trying to crack in it and it was the

01:12:59.900 --> 01:13:03.340
third one in the chain you know if you take

01:13:03.340 --> 01:13:04.940
that password and you hash it you're going

01:13:04.940 --> 01:13:07.760
to get a result which is going to generate

01:13:07.760 --> 01:13:11.960
a result when it's hashed and so the last

01:13:11.960 --> 01:13:16.100
one in that chain is going to show up in

01:13:16.100 --> 01:13:19.360
my list if I take the password I pulled

01:13:19.360 --> 01:13:21.000
off the machine or the hash that I pulled

01:13:21.000 --> 01:13:22.460
off the machine and I start hashing it

01:13:22.460 --> 01:13:26.220
over and over again because it's an

01:13:26.220 --> 01:13:27.660
iterative function and it always reaches

01:13:27.660 --> 01:13:30.360
the same result and so once I found a

01:13:30.360 --> 01:13:37.220
match in the in the table for the for the

01:13:37.220 --> 01:13:39.660
that matches one of the one of the

01:13:39.660 --> 01:13:42.020
results of my iteratively hashing the

01:13:42.020 --> 01:13:44.940
thing I'm trying to crack all I can

01:13:44.940 --> 01:13:47.060
take the first you know because I saw

01:13:47.060 --> 01:13:48.460
the first and the last entry in each

01:13:48.460 --> 01:13:50.340
chain I can take the first entry in that

01:13:50.340 --> 01:13:52.420
chain and start iteratively hashing it

01:13:52.420 --> 01:13:55.880
until I get to the thing that I was

01:13:55.880 --> 01:13:58.400
looking for and of course the value that

01:13:58.400 --> 01:14:02.820
produced it is the password that may be

01:14:02.820 --> 01:14:06.600
difficult to follow but that's really the

01:14:06.600 --> 01:14:09.360
simplest possible way to explain it

01:14:09.360 --> 01:14:10.780
all right I think actually that I think

01:14:10.780 --> 01:14:12.180
that was very good actually I think

01:14:12.180 --> 01:14:13.660
keeping it down with a small number of

01:14:13.660 --> 01:14:16.300
five I think is a very good way to kind

01:14:16.300 --> 01:14:17.840
of demonstrate this that you find that

01:14:17.840 --> 01:14:19.640
last one and you can back you know that

01:14:19.640 --> 01:14:21.740
you've narrowed it down that there's an

01:14:21.740 --> 01:14:25.400
overlap there it could really help if you

01:14:25.400 --> 01:14:27.280
try to do it on paper if you try to write

01:14:27.280 --> 01:14:30.260
this down you take a number you hash it you

01:14:30.260 --> 01:14:32.380
take it that result and hash it and make

01:14:32.380 --> 01:14:36.200
a chain of five and and then you and

01:14:36.200 --> 01:14:38.580
then you and then you pretend that you

01:14:38.580 --> 01:14:40.920
pulled the third one in that chain off

01:14:40.920 --> 01:14:44.360
of off of a computer and you make five

01:14:44.360 --> 01:14:48.260
hashes of it you'll see that the fifth

01:14:48.260 --> 01:14:51.480
one in your first list is the you know

01:14:51.480 --> 01:14:54.000
the third one in your second list and so

01:14:54.000 --> 01:14:55.820
you have a match and you can see that

01:14:55.820 --> 01:14:58.500
based on the first one in the list the

01:14:58.500 --> 01:15:00.240
first list you generated you could get

01:15:00.240 --> 01:15:03.600
back to the third one so if you if you

01:15:03.600 --> 01:15:05.000
just kind of if you just kind of lay it

01:15:05.000 --> 01:15:07.620
out on paper and try it you know

01:15:07.620 --> 01:15:10.460
hopefully it'll make sense I think that's

01:15:10.460 --> 01:15:12.160
excellent I think that was a very I think

01:15:12.160 --> 01:15:13.780
that was a great job in explaining and I

01:15:13.780 --> 01:15:16.180
think that is understandable and also

01:15:16.180 --> 01:15:18.360
just to kind of reiterate something you

01:15:18.360 --> 01:15:19.920
said too is that you know that these

01:15:19.920 --> 01:15:22.260
iterations are going to both work out the

01:15:22.260 --> 01:15:23.460
same that they're going to come up to

01:15:23.460 --> 01:15:25.580
the same conclusion because you're

01:15:25.580 --> 01:15:27.220
reiterating your I don't know if that's

01:15:27.220 --> 01:15:29.520
a proper way to say you're you're coming

01:15:29.520 --> 01:15:32.320
up with the the iterative hash of the

01:15:32.320 --> 01:15:34.220
hash before it and the one before it

01:15:34.220 --> 01:15:35.840
which goes back to that original

01:15:35.840 --> 01:15:37.800
password and as we said at the beginning

01:15:37.800 --> 01:15:40.260
of this conversation because of the way

01:15:40.260 --> 01:15:42.340
a hashing algorithm works it's going to

01:15:42.340 --> 01:15:44.660
create the same hash so you're all

01:15:44.660 --> 01:15:50.280
starting from the same place so the um

01:15:50.280 --> 01:15:53.700
uh there's something that um I think

01:15:53.700 --> 01:15:56.780
important to uh to explain there's two

01:15:56.780 --> 01:15:58.800
things that I need to explain and I I'm

01:15:58.800 --> 01:16:01.200
gonna I'm gonna uh sort of go backwards

01:16:01.200 --> 01:16:02.740
here because I think that one of the

01:16:02.740 --> 01:16:04.620
things I want to explain helps people

01:16:04.620 --> 01:16:07.160
helps um you know you understand this a

01:16:07.160 --> 01:16:11.720
little bit better uh when you um the

01:16:11.720 --> 01:16:14.640
thing that I I you know I have kind of a

01:16:14.640 --> 01:16:16.780
criticism of the use of of rainbow tables

01:16:16.780 --> 01:16:21.460
um I know that is that that I I I you

01:16:21.460 --> 01:16:27.520
most people have lame passwords uh they

01:16:27.520 --> 01:16:29.280
have passwords that are based on dictionary

01:16:29.280 --> 01:16:33.640
words uh and so if you've got this if you

01:16:33.640 --> 01:16:36.080
think about this hash train when you take a

01:16:36.080 --> 01:16:38.720
password like love and you md5 hash it

01:16:38.720 --> 01:16:41.380
you're going to get a bunch of gobbledygook

01:16:41.380 --> 01:16:43.780
and then if you hash that you're going

01:16:43.780 --> 01:16:46.340
to get more gobbledygook and so if you

01:16:46.340 --> 01:16:48.300
look at one of these hash chains even if

01:16:48.300 --> 01:16:49.500
you started with something which could

01:16:49.500 --> 01:16:51.660
reasonably be a password most of the

01:16:51.660 --> 01:16:53.020
entries in the chain are going to be

01:16:53.020 --> 01:16:55.480
gobbledygook that is highly unlikely to

01:16:55.480 --> 01:17:00.980
be someone's real password uh and so you

01:17:00.980 --> 01:17:03.620
know if you do this you know if you have

01:17:03.620 --> 01:17:08.580
32,000 chains with uh you know uh

01:17:08.580 --> 01:17:10.500
with uh with 10,000 entries like

01:17:10.500 --> 01:17:12.140
eventually you know some of those things

01:17:12.140 --> 01:17:13.320
are actually going to be dictionary

01:17:13.320 --> 01:17:15.800
words uh but it's just sort of at random

01:17:15.800 --> 01:17:17.340
that that happens it's kind of random

01:17:17.340 --> 01:17:22.580
exactly and so uh if you were to take

01:17:22.580 --> 01:17:25.520
a dictionary which had you know maybe

01:17:25.520 --> 01:17:28.520
three hundred thousand dictionary words

01:17:28.520 --> 01:17:30.940
in it uh and permutations of the words

01:17:30.940 --> 01:17:34.060
and you were to hash all of them

01:17:34.060 --> 01:17:37.220
chances are good that you would end up

01:17:37.220 --> 01:17:39.540
with a with a search space that's

01:17:39.540 --> 01:17:42.980
smaller than most uh than than your

01:17:42.980 --> 01:17:49.060
typical uh uh rainbow table and the the

01:17:49.060 --> 01:17:51.020
so the thing is that and and i mean you're

01:17:51.020 --> 01:17:53.280
going to find you know eighty percent of

01:17:53.280 --> 01:17:55.500
uh the passwords you'd expect to find in

01:17:55.500 --> 01:17:59.420
the real world that way uh and so you

01:17:59.420 --> 01:18:01.820
know where you get a real advantage out

01:18:01.820 --> 01:18:03.460
of rainbow tables is when you're when

01:18:03.460 --> 01:18:05.640
you're really trying to crack uh you

01:18:05.640 --> 01:18:08.360
know very uh sophisticated passwords

01:18:08.360 --> 01:18:10.720
um that might be the kind of gobbledygook

01:18:10.720 --> 01:18:12.220
you're going to get out of reiterating

01:18:12.220 --> 01:18:16.760
this hash function um so uh you know i

01:18:16.760 --> 01:18:18.220
think that sheds a little bit of light

01:18:18.220 --> 01:18:20.340
onto to how this thing actually works

01:18:20.340 --> 01:18:22.660
but it also goes to say like i think

01:18:22.660 --> 01:18:25.080
there's a lot of people who are who are

01:18:25.080 --> 01:18:27.700
employing these tools who you know who um

01:18:27.700 --> 01:18:29.700
you know could get away doing something

01:18:29.700 --> 01:18:33.520
much less complex uh uh you know and and get

01:18:33.520 --> 01:18:36.560
um you know a similar kind of result out

01:18:36.560 --> 01:18:39.460
of it in terms of uh in terms of the uh you

01:18:39.460 --> 01:18:41.520
know the effectiveness that it has in you

01:18:41.520 --> 01:18:45.440
know finding bad passwords uh i guess the um

01:18:45.440 --> 01:18:47.260
the other thing that i should explain is

01:18:47.260 --> 01:18:49.160
that the the sort of algorithm that i just

01:18:49.160 --> 01:18:51.780
that i just described to you is a very

01:18:51.780 --> 01:18:54.400
simple simplified explanation and it's

01:18:54.400 --> 01:18:56.220
really an explanation of the kinds of

01:18:56.220 --> 01:18:58.820
things that uh that helman was talking

01:18:58.820 --> 01:19:02.400
about uh and how many didn't coin the

01:19:02.400 --> 01:19:06.940
term rainbow table to refer to his uh his

01:19:06.940 --> 01:19:10.560
his uh innovation um and you know and then

01:19:10.560 --> 01:19:14.140
revest built upon what helman did and uh

01:19:14.140 --> 01:19:18.100
uh felipe built upon what revest did and

01:19:18.100 --> 01:19:21.900
felipe uh uh his algorithm is what is

01:19:21.900 --> 01:19:24.740
really referred to as rainbow tables but i

01:19:24.740 --> 01:19:26.240
haven't dug into this deep enough to

01:19:26.240 --> 01:19:28.700
really get to the difference between what

01:19:28.700 --> 01:19:30.460
felipe is doing and what helman is doing

01:19:30.460 --> 01:19:33.060
uh but basically there when you're

01:19:33.060 --> 01:19:35.720
iterating through these hash functions you

01:19:35.720 --> 01:19:38.240
don't just take the result of the hash and

01:19:38.240 --> 01:19:41.200
hash it again in reality you also send it

01:19:41.200 --> 01:19:42.480
through this thing called a reduction

01:19:42.480 --> 01:19:48.660
function uh and the reduction function um uh in

01:19:48.660 --> 01:19:51.900
in helman and revest's versions was always

01:19:51.900 --> 01:19:55.860
the same and uh this created a real serious

01:19:55.860 --> 01:19:58.740
problem with chains merging uh where

01:19:58.740 --> 01:20:01.240
basically uh you know you start generating

01:20:01.240 --> 01:20:04.440
a chain and eventually it sort of syncs up

01:20:04.440 --> 01:20:05.700
with another chain that you generated

01:20:05.700 --> 01:20:09.000
previously um and so in order to combat

01:20:09.000 --> 01:20:11.340
that what felipe did was change the

01:20:11.340 --> 01:20:13.660
reduction reduction function every single

01:20:13.660 --> 01:20:16.060
time he iterated which um reduced the

01:20:16.060 --> 01:20:19.560
probability of having chains merge uh and

01:20:19.560 --> 01:20:21.940
so um he gets a lot of performance

01:20:21.940 --> 01:20:26.400
advantages out of that but uh the uh you

01:20:26.400 --> 01:20:28.980
know and so and so you have to have um in

01:20:28.980 --> 01:20:30.920
order to really have a rainbow table quote

01:20:30.920 --> 01:20:33.380
unquote you have to have a reduction

01:20:33.380 --> 01:20:35.080
function that changes at each generation

01:20:35.080 --> 01:20:37.820
but uh you know getting into the details of

01:20:37.820 --> 01:20:39.840
what a reduction function is and how it

01:20:39.840 --> 01:20:41.680
plays in is you know sort of information

01:20:41.680 --> 01:20:43.640
overload for this radio show

01:20:43.640 --> 01:20:48.340
um the other thing that i want to point

01:20:48.340 --> 01:20:51.120
out is that when when helman was thinking

01:20:51.120 --> 01:20:52.880
about this stuff originally he wasn't

01:20:52.880 --> 01:20:55.720
trying to crack passwords uh and in fact

01:20:55.720 --> 01:20:57.060
like i think helman would have strongly

01:20:57.060 --> 01:20:59.180
advised the folks that were designing some

01:20:59.180 --> 01:21:01.580
of these authentication systems to use

01:21:01.580 --> 01:21:04.980
assaulted hashes so that um they were

01:21:04.980 --> 01:21:08.840
still you know well outside the the reach

01:21:08.840 --> 01:21:12.360
of uh uh you know rainbow table that you

01:21:12.360 --> 01:21:14.280
could generate on a you might imagine

01:21:14.280 --> 01:21:19.000
generating on a pc uh but um you know what

01:21:19.000 --> 01:21:20.360
what he was trying to do is he was trying

01:21:20.360 --> 01:21:23.840
to crack encrypted files and you can use

01:21:23.840 --> 01:21:26.700
rainbow tables to do that and the scenario

01:21:26.700 --> 01:21:29.980
you know a lot of files have the exact same

01:21:29.980 --> 01:21:33.240
header uh you know maybe information

01:21:33.240 --> 01:21:35.460
within the file is different the first you

01:21:35.460 --> 01:21:37.580
know maybe n bytes of the file are going

01:21:37.580 --> 01:21:40.060
to be the same regardless of of what's in

01:21:40.060 --> 01:21:42.440
it uh and you know a lot of times this

01:21:42.440 --> 01:21:44.400
happens just kind of through force of

01:21:44.400 --> 01:21:46.800
habit like how many c++ source files have

01:21:46.800 --> 01:21:49.180
you seen that start with a slash and then

01:21:49.180 --> 01:21:53.300
a bunch of asterisks of uh you know a lot

01:21:53.300 --> 01:21:56.360
you so so if you if you took that sort of

01:21:56.360 --> 01:21:58.260
header and you assume that's going to be

01:21:58.260 --> 01:22:00.600
the front of a lot of files that might be

01:22:00.600 --> 01:22:03.200
encrypted that i want to decrypt then what

01:22:03.200 --> 01:22:06.900
i can do is instead of doing a hash in my

01:22:06.900 --> 01:22:09.100
when i'm generating my rainbow table i take

01:22:09.100 --> 01:22:13.060
that text and uh and i uh and i and i

01:22:13.060 --> 01:22:17.240
say that's encrypted with a key and then i

01:22:17.240 --> 01:22:19.620
take the output of that death encryption and

01:22:19.620 --> 01:22:21.200
use it as the key for the next death

01:22:21.200 --> 01:22:23.160
encryption and i do that iteratively

01:22:23.160 --> 01:22:26.680
instead of hashing the hash uh and you

01:22:26.680 --> 01:22:28.060
know what i end up doing is getting a

01:22:28.060 --> 01:22:30.240
rainbow table for a file a particular

01:22:30.240 --> 01:22:33.060
header encrypted with every possible death

01:22:33.060 --> 01:22:35.780
death key and so if i have an encrypted

01:22:35.780 --> 01:22:38.380
file that starts with that header i can

01:22:38.380 --> 01:22:42.520
check uh my rainbow table uh and uh you

01:22:42.520 --> 01:22:45.260
know for that header and um hopefully find

01:22:45.260 --> 01:22:47.900
the key and then i can encrypt the file

01:22:47.900 --> 01:22:52.080
and so uh you know if you if you were to

01:22:52.080 --> 01:22:56.060
generate you know you know a huge collection

01:22:56.060 --> 01:22:59.560
of these deaths uh uh rainbow tables then

01:22:59.560 --> 01:23:03.060
you could uh then uh you know with a large

01:23:03.060 --> 01:23:06.140
number of sort of common headers uh and

01:23:06.140 --> 01:23:09.860
you were trying to uh uh uh crack um open a

01:23:09.860 --> 01:23:12.460
file and you could guess uh the first few

01:23:12.460 --> 01:23:14.740
characters of that file uh you might be

01:23:14.740 --> 01:23:16.300
able to uh decrypt the whole thing this

01:23:16.300 --> 01:23:20.580
way uh so um i think that's uh i think

01:23:20.580 --> 01:23:23.260
that's a pretty interesting uh aspect to

01:23:23.260 --> 01:23:25.180
this too that you don't see a lot of

01:23:25.180 --> 01:23:27.320
people uh talking about necessarily

01:23:27.320 --> 01:23:30.460
right right well i tell you what we're

01:23:30.460 --> 01:23:33.020
running kind of low here so uh the one

01:23:33.020 --> 01:23:34.600
other thing i want to do and if there's

01:23:34.600 --> 01:23:35.900
anything else you wanted to talk about i

01:23:35.900 --> 01:23:37.240
wanted to at least throw some of the

01:23:37.240 --> 01:23:39.520
tools out there so that people do want to

01:23:39.520 --> 01:23:40.780
follow up and play around with this on

01:23:40.780 --> 01:23:43.220
their own and kind of see if they can

01:23:43.220 --> 01:23:44.580
understand it better just from playing

01:23:44.580 --> 01:23:46.420
with the tools that are out there is

01:23:46.420 --> 01:23:47.420
there anything else you wanted to cover

01:23:47.420 --> 01:23:48.540
before we move on to that

01:23:48.540 --> 01:23:51.180
uh no i'm done yeah i think that i think

01:23:51.180 --> 01:23:53.420
it's a great i really like the the and i

01:23:53.420 --> 01:23:55.100
agree agree completely with the point of

01:23:55.100 --> 01:23:57.200
the dictionary attack um and it kind of

01:23:57.200 --> 01:23:58.140
goes back to what i was saying earlier

01:23:58.140 --> 01:24:00.160
about the plain character sets if you're

01:24:00.160 --> 01:24:02.840
just using new alpha alphabetic characters

01:24:02.840 --> 01:24:04.560
you know it's probably dictionary words

01:24:04.560 --> 01:24:06.680
most likely then yeah it's probably not

01:24:06.680 --> 01:24:08.060
going to pay off for you to build a

01:24:08.060 --> 01:24:09.660
rainbow table for something like that

01:24:09.660 --> 01:24:11.760
however i think more people are still

01:24:11.760 --> 01:24:13.080
going to use it because of the

01:24:13.080 --> 01:24:14.800
universality of it i don't know if

01:24:14.800 --> 01:24:17.200
that's a word universality that if you

01:24:17.200 --> 01:24:20.360
make you know get that 97 99 or whatever

01:24:20.360 --> 01:24:22.720
for 1.5 gigs a lot of people might just

01:24:22.720 --> 01:24:25.160
go with it for ease of use it may it's

01:24:25.160 --> 01:24:26.460
not going to be the most efficient there

01:24:26.460 --> 01:24:28.000
are better ways but it will still

01:24:28.000 --> 01:24:30.240
probably work so i don't see that i see

01:24:30.240 --> 01:24:32.880
people still using it that way um some

01:24:32.880 --> 01:24:34.900
of the tools of course um you know one

01:24:34.900 --> 01:24:36.940
of the the obvious one is rainbow crack

01:24:36.940 --> 01:24:38.880
um but there's another one out there

01:24:38.880 --> 01:24:41.020
called oph crack which is very good

01:24:41.020 --> 01:24:44.080
uh there's a windows tool called uh win

01:24:44.080 --> 01:24:46.560
rt gen which i think the original was

01:24:46.560 --> 01:24:48.200
called rt gen which rainbow tables

01:24:48.200 --> 01:24:50.700
generator there's a win rt gen that i

01:24:50.700 --> 01:24:53.400
like a lot i think it's really cool and

01:24:53.400 --> 01:24:55.140
it's a great tool to download and

01:24:55.140 --> 01:24:57.280
understand what we're talking about

01:24:57.280 --> 01:24:58.640
with the character sets and the

01:24:58.640 --> 01:25:01.000
algorithms you can actually see that on

01:25:01.000 --> 01:25:02.720
the fly and it will do some estimates

01:25:02.720 --> 01:25:05.220
and calculations change some of those

01:25:05.220 --> 01:25:07.120
variables and watch how your

01:25:07.120 --> 01:25:10.140
percentage of success drops as opposed

01:25:10.140 --> 01:25:12.180
to how many files you have to create to

01:25:12.180 --> 01:25:15.080
make better success better success rate

01:25:15.080 --> 01:25:17.760
excuse me um in addition to that

01:25:17.760 --> 01:25:19.900
because once again the universality of

01:25:19.900 --> 01:25:21.940
boy i hope that's a word i'm totally

01:25:21.940 --> 01:25:24.380
using it the the files are universal

01:25:24.380 --> 01:25:26.620
and they're going to work no matter

01:25:26.620 --> 01:25:28.020
which computer they were generated on

01:25:28.020 --> 01:25:29.220
because the way hashing works

01:25:29.220 --> 01:25:32.460
they can be done online there are a

01:25:32.460 --> 01:25:34.280
lot of companies now i don't know if

01:25:34.280 --> 01:25:35.340
companies there are a lot of people

01:25:35.340 --> 01:25:37.240
that are charging that if you send them

01:25:37.240 --> 01:25:39.480
the hash they'll run it through their

01:25:39.480 --> 01:25:41.020
rainbow tables to their website or

01:25:41.020 --> 01:25:43.220
whatever and charge you a price for it

01:25:43.220 --> 01:25:45.920
and and do the work for you so there

01:25:45.920 --> 01:25:47.740
are a lot of um places i've seen

01:25:47.740 --> 01:25:49.800
popping up lately to do it online what

01:25:49.800 --> 01:25:51.380
i would like to see and i'll throw

01:25:51.380 --> 01:25:52.600
this out to the community i would

01:25:52.600 --> 01:25:54.540
really think it would be cool if

01:25:54.540 --> 01:25:55.820
somebody out there who had a really

01:25:55.820 --> 01:25:59.240
big box were to make that kind of

01:25:59.240 --> 01:26:01.120
service publicly available i think you'd

01:26:01.120 --> 01:26:02.680
get a lot of hits i think a lot of

01:26:02.680 --> 01:26:04.800
people would be interested in that if

01:26:04.800 --> 01:26:06.840
you were to take a big several hundred

01:26:06.840 --> 01:26:09.800
gig or multiple hard drives store a

01:26:09.800 --> 01:26:12.140
bunch of very large rainbow tables a

01:26:12.140 --> 01:26:12.960
lot of them have already been

01:26:12.960 --> 01:26:14.500
created like i said you can find the

01:26:14.500 --> 01:26:16.680
ones that are already done and there

01:26:16.680 --> 01:26:18.740
are people out there sharing them and

01:26:18.740 --> 01:26:20.440
make them put them on the website

01:26:20.440 --> 01:26:22.160
not so much for download because it

01:26:22.160 --> 01:26:23.560
kill your bandwidth downloading

01:26:23.560 --> 01:26:25.920
gigabytes of tables but maybe a way

01:26:25.920 --> 01:26:27.700
that people could submit hashes and

01:26:27.700 --> 01:26:29.300
have the work done have it queued up

01:26:29.300 --> 01:26:30.900
and have it mailed back to them or

01:26:30.900 --> 01:26:32.440
something along those lines i think

01:26:32.440 --> 01:26:33.760
that would make a very cool community

01:26:33.760 --> 01:26:36.080
project but there are some people

01:26:36.080 --> 01:26:39.220
that are doing it now is pay sites and

01:26:39.220 --> 01:26:40.680
a lot of the security tools cane and

01:26:40.680 --> 01:26:42.760
able i know has built in right click

01:26:42.760 --> 01:26:45.720
for um to submit a hash as well so a

01:26:45.720 --> 01:26:47.000
lot of the security tools are going

01:26:47.000 --> 01:26:48.760
that route to give another option

01:26:48.760 --> 01:26:49.840
instead of just a brute force

01:26:49.840 --> 01:26:51.840
dictionary attack they're offering

01:26:51.840 --> 01:26:54.120
this and i even saw i don't think

01:26:54.120 --> 01:26:55.260
there's any i don't think it hasn't

01:26:55.260 --> 01:26:57.500
been started yet but i saw a project

01:26:57.500 --> 01:27:00.700
has been created for a distributed tool

01:27:00.700 --> 01:27:03.040
for rainbow table generation because as

01:27:03.040 --> 01:27:04.680
we said it also takes a lot of power

01:27:04.680 --> 01:27:08.140
and time to generate these up front so

01:27:08.140 --> 01:27:10.960
that might be a neat distributed project

01:27:10.960 --> 01:27:14.760
so uh that wraps it up for rainbow

01:27:14.760 --> 01:27:16.420
tables at least as far as we're going

01:27:16.420 --> 01:27:19.220
to get into them on this show um and

01:27:19.220 --> 01:27:20.960
truthfully if anybody does find them

01:27:20.960 --> 01:27:21.820
more interesting and wants to go

01:27:21.820 --> 01:27:24.000
further this is the point where they

01:27:24.000 --> 01:27:26.540
really need to take the initiative and

01:27:26.540 --> 01:27:27.980
go out there and really read because it

01:27:27.980 --> 01:27:30.860
does get so much more complex i mean i've

01:27:30.860 --> 01:27:32.380
had trouble wrapping my head around a

01:27:32.380 --> 01:27:34.360
lot of it and that's why i thank you

01:27:34.360 --> 01:27:36.000
desius for helping me understand it

01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:37.540
better as well as our listeners because

01:27:37.540 --> 01:27:40.020
it is something that you know i like to

01:27:40.020 --> 01:27:41.580
understand not only what it's doing but

01:27:41.580 --> 01:27:43.600
why and how it's doing it and i do feel

01:27:43.600 --> 01:27:45.340
like i've i've gained that out of this

01:27:45.340 --> 01:27:47.100
episode so hopefully the listeners have

01:27:47.100 --> 01:27:51.240
too um as we wrap it up um only reminder

01:27:51.240 --> 01:27:54.040
i have is that this friday our BinRev

01:27:54.040 --> 01:27:55.820
meeting so if you have a BinRev meeting

01:27:55.820 --> 01:27:57.960
nearby or if you want to start one

01:27:57.960 --> 01:28:00.740
contact us um but BinRev meetings this

01:28:00.740 --> 01:28:03.480
Friday and i'll kick it over to you for

01:28:03.480 --> 01:28:05.380
any shouts if you want to say give

01:28:05.380 --> 01:28:06.800
shouts out to anybody i'll let you go

01:28:06.800 --> 01:28:09.240
with that well i'll shout out to uh to

01:28:09.240 --> 01:28:12.200
rattle and uh and acidous uh who uh who

01:28:12.200 --> 01:28:14.140
may be out there uh uh listening to the

01:28:14.140 --> 01:28:16.900
show and uh i think for uh for having me

01:28:16.900 --> 01:28:19.400
on again i always like uh uh get the

01:28:19.400 --> 01:28:20.920
opportunity to talk about this kind of

01:28:20.920 --> 01:28:24.500
stuff so uh um and we and we love having

01:28:24.500 --> 01:28:26.360
you we love having on the show and i think

01:28:26.360 --> 01:28:28.020
this will be i'm pretty sure this will be

01:28:28.020 --> 01:28:29.760
a very popular show i think a lot of

01:28:29.760 --> 01:28:30.860
people are going to learn from this

01:28:30.860 --> 01:28:33.820
because most people stop after they see

01:28:33.820 --> 01:28:36.200
how it works or what it what it does i

01:28:36.200 --> 01:28:37.520
should say and now they're going to know

01:28:37.520 --> 01:28:39.960
a lot more about how it works so um and

01:28:39.960 --> 01:28:42.800
i yeah totally acidous um virgil i spoke

01:28:42.800 --> 01:28:44.560
to an email not too long ago so it's good

01:28:44.560 --> 01:28:47.620
to talk to him again um and we're actually

01:28:47.620 --> 01:28:49.800
i guess under announcements maybe next

01:28:49.800 --> 01:28:51.160
week we'll announce more detail but i've

01:28:51.160 --> 01:28:53.240
been working with emmanuel to try to put

01:28:53.240 --> 01:28:55.900
together some events for hope so once we

01:28:55.900 --> 01:28:57.300
get some of that ironed out we might have

01:28:57.300 --> 01:29:00.000
a few cool surprise events going on at

01:29:00.000 --> 01:29:03.540
hope um so let's see site of the week

01:29:03.540 --> 01:29:05.700
uh i have a site out there we have a we

01:29:05.700 --> 01:29:07.640
have a little project site we created

01:29:07.640 --> 01:29:10.040
that seemed to be in demand um it's called

01:29:10.040 --> 01:29:14.600
hacker events.org all one word hacker e-v-e-n-t-s

01:29:14.600 --> 01:29:17.780
dot org and it's nothing but i threw up an

01:29:17.780 --> 01:29:20.220
open source calendar client on there people

01:29:20.220 --> 01:29:23.120
can go submit um events that are upcoming

01:29:23.120 --> 01:29:26.140
there's so many uh local cons smaller cons

01:29:26.140 --> 01:29:28.960
now meetings etc that i thought it'd be

01:29:28.960 --> 01:29:30.860
kind of useful to have one central calendar

01:29:30.860 --> 01:29:32.800
anybody can submit so if you have a local

01:29:32.800 --> 01:29:34.960
linux user group meeting put it on there

01:29:34.960 --> 01:29:36.820
i've already put on the 2600 meetings for

01:29:36.820 --> 01:29:39.020
the rest of the year bin rev meetings

01:29:39.020 --> 01:29:42.440
defcon meetings etc etc i put on hope

01:29:42.440 --> 01:29:44.500
defcon all the conferences that were

01:29:44.500 --> 01:29:46.040
announced at the time when i was creating

01:29:46.040 --> 01:29:48.040
it all on that calendar so you kind of

01:29:48.040 --> 01:29:50.280
look ahead and see make your plans around

01:29:50.280 --> 01:29:53.640
where you want to go etc etc if you have

01:29:53.640 --> 01:29:57.460
any feedback on the show radio at bin rev dot

01:29:57.460 --> 01:29:59.680
com that's the only place that we're going

01:29:59.680 --> 01:30:02.580
to read emails on the air if you want

01:30:02.580 --> 01:30:04.500
them anything else you send it to i get

01:30:04.500 --> 01:30:06.260
people send stuff to my personal account

01:30:06.260 --> 01:30:08.500
or something um i'll read them i don't

01:30:08.500 --> 01:30:09.840
know that i'll always get back to you

01:30:09.840 --> 01:30:12.160
because i get a lot of email but radio at

01:30:12.160 --> 01:30:13.880
bin rev dot com will always be read by

01:30:13.880 --> 01:30:16.980
one of us and possibly read on the air so

01:30:16.980 --> 01:30:19.580
make sure you send it there only um our

01:30:19.580 --> 01:30:22.100
closing music tonight is it's a track

01:30:22.100 --> 01:30:24.700
called code monkey which is pretty much

01:30:24.700 --> 01:30:26.480
what my job is one of my favorite words

01:30:26.480 --> 01:30:28.400
i use on the show i am a code monkey the

01:30:28.400 --> 01:30:29.980
song is called code monkey it's by

01:30:29.980 --> 01:30:33.860
jonathan coolton calton c-o-u-l-t-o-n

01:30:33.860 --> 01:30:37.720
and the website is jonathan calton dot com

01:30:37.720 --> 01:30:40.360
so google for it if you can't find it and

01:30:40.360 --> 01:30:42.440
that's it desius once again thank you for

01:30:42.440 --> 01:30:44.180
being on the show we're probably a couple

01:30:44.180 --> 01:30:47.820
minutes over so i guess in between coughs

01:30:47.820 --> 01:30:50.100
here we will tell everybody that we will

01:30:50.100 --> 01:30:52.600
see them next week same hack time

01:30:52.600 --> 01:30:56.340
same hack channel we're both coughing and

01:30:56.340 --> 01:30:59.000
trying to get it out next week later

01:30:59.000 --> 01:31:03.220
code monkey get up get coffee code monkey

01:31:03.220 --> 01:31:07.940
go to job code monkey have boring meeting

01:31:07.940 --> 01:31:12.960
with boring manager rob rob say code monkey

01:31:12.960 --> 01:31:15.820
very diligent but his output stink

01:31:15.820 --> 01:31:42.100
is code not functional or elegant what do code monkey think code monkey think maybe manager want to write god damn login page himself code monkey not say it out loud code monkey not crazy just proud code monkey like fritos code monkey like dab of mountain dew code monkey very simple man

01:31:42.100 --> 01:31:44.380
but they've worn fuzzy secret heart

01:31:44.380 --> 01:31:49.100
code monkey like you

01:31:49.100 --> 01:31:53.100
code monkey like you

01:31:53.100 --> 01:31:57.100
code monkey like you

01:31:57.100 --> 01:32:03.100
code monkey hang around at front desk till your sweater looks nice

01:32:03.100 --> 01:32:04.380
code monkey even better look nice

01:32:04.380 --> 01:32:10.100
code monkey off or buy your soda bring your cup bring your ice

01:32:10.100 --> 01:32:18.100
code monkey have long walk back to cuticle he sits down for the soda cause soda make you fat

01:32:18.100 --> 01:32:20.060
you busy with the telephone

01:32:20.060 --> 01:32:21.800
no time for chat

01:32:21.800 --> 01:32:23.880
Code Monkey have long walks

01:32:23.880 --> 01:32:25.340
back to Cue the Girl

01:32:25.340 --> 01:32:27.840
he sits down with his hand to work

01:32:27.840 --> 01:32:29.540
Code Monkey not thinking

01:32:29.540 --> 01:32:31.700
so straight, Code Monkey

01:32:31.700 --> 01:32:33.900
not feeling so great

01:32:33.900 --> 01:32:35.860
Code Monkey like Fritos

01:32:35.860 --> 01:32:38.140
Code Monkey like

01:32:38.140 --> 01:32:39.520
Tab and Mountain Dew

01:32:39.520 --> 01:32:42.160
Code Monkey very simple man

01:32:42.160 --> 01:32:44.080
big, warm, fuzzy

01:32:44.080 --> 01:32:45.000
secret heart

01:32:45.000 --> 01:32:47.700
Code Monkey like you

01:32:48.100 --> 01:32:54.440
Code Monkey like you

01:32:54.440 --> 01:32:56.500
lots

01:32:56.500 --> 01:33:06.200
Code Monkey

01:33:06.200 --> 01:33:08.000
have every reason

01:33:08.000 --> 01:33:09.960
to get out this place

01:33:09.960 --> 01:33:12.200
Code Monkey

01:33:12.200 --> 01:33:13.860
just keep on working

01:33:13.860 --> 01:33:16.000
see your soft pretty face

01:33:16.000 --> 01:33:18.240
much rather

01:33:18.240 --> 01:33:20.140
wake up, eat a coffee cake

01:33:20.140 --> 01:33:21.840
take bath, take nap

01:33:21.840 --> 01:33:24.100
this job

01:33:24.100 --> 01:33:26.120
fulfilling in creative way

01:33:26.120 --> 01:33:27.840
such a load of crap

01:33:27.840 --> 01:33:29.080
Code Monkey thinks

01:33:29.080 --> 01:33:31.220
someday he have everything

01:33:31.220 --> 01:33:33.940
even pretty girl like you

01:33:33.940 --> 01:33:35.520
Code Monkey just waiting

01:33:35.520 --> 01:33:36.340
for now

01:33:36.340 --> 01:33:38.060
Code Monkey says

01:33:38.060 --> 01:33:39.340
someday, somehow

01:33:39.340 --> 01:33:41.680
Code Monkey like Fritos

01:33:41.680 --> 01:33:44.580
Code Monkey like Tab

01:33:44.580 --> 01:33:45.500
and Mountain Dew

01:33:45.500 --> 01:33:47.680
Code Monkey very simple man

01:33:47.680 --> 01:33:50.080
big, warm, fuzzy

01:33:50.080 --> 01:33:51.000
secret heart

01:33:51.000 --> 01:33:53.680
Code Monkey like you

01:33:53.680 --> 01:33:59.680
Code Monkey like you

01:33:59.680 --> 01:34:18.780
Code Monkey like he

01:34:20.080 --> 01:34:21.980
someone who thinks is amerieszka

01:34:21.980 --> 01:34:23.960
and miss you

01:34:23.960 --> 01:34:25.900
a lot of