WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:09.460 This is dedicated to all the hackers and the crackers, to the hackers and the crackers. 00:09.760 --> 00:15.520 I see in binary, I speak source code, step on my toes, I'll post a million jpegs of you 00:15.520 --> 00:20.780 and a fag pwned, in your digital stance getting firewalled ho, cause I'm riding the net in 00:20.780 --> 00:26.440 my six-fold, I was a dick with my 56, now with my cable I'm able to get that stable, 00:26.440 --> 00:31.740 on the out, my name is Ace and I'm a Leo, on the digital highway, my name is Neo and 00:31.740 --> 00:37.240 I'm a hero, in a flash, I'll screw you on burning dreamcast, you need some ISO, let me through 00:37.240 --> 00:42.680 my hard drive rifle, our exchange you could never stifle, in a digital hug, you just caught 00:42.680 --> 00:48.940 the love bug, I bootlegged your CD, I caused a fight between Un and Jay-Z, your CG, it's 00:48.940 --> 00:53.460 all gonna be free, whether we take it by force or we take it nicely, you feel that rattling 00:53.460 --> 00:58.140 your phones, when I tell you we just hacked out Jones, and NASDAQ leaves you flat on your 00:58.140 --> 01:03.440 back, cause I am he who loves to hack and crack, cause I am he who loves to hack and crack. 01:03.940 --> 01:11.160 This is dedicated to the hackers and the crackers, serial codes, source codes, ISOs, RANs, SIFs, 01:11.160 --> 01:14.200 SIFs, this is dedicated to the hackers and the crackers. 01:15.060 --> 01:22.980 Hello everybody and welcome to Binary Revolution motherfucking radio bitches, I am StagDog back in 01:22.980 --> 01:33.400 the hizzy for episode 162, coming to you September 5th, 2006. And yes, this is going to be a very 01:33.400 --> 01:39.100 interesting episode this week. Buddy Droops must have got caught up somewhere, I think he went through 01:39.100 --> 01:45.800 some like space time, vorpal continuation, Star Trek something or other, and didn't release an episode 01:45.800 --> 01:53.960 last week. So I'm stepping in here and the last episode that was done had a little bit of follow 01:53.960 --> 01:59.660 up that needed to be done with our co-host once again tonight, Verbal, who's on the phone right 01:59.660 --> 02:05.700 now. Verbal, say hello to the people. Hey, what's going on? And we are going to bring in another, 02:06.260 --> 02:12.340 another co-host tonight, Noe Lani, who was also on that episode, and kind of finish up on the topic 02:12.340 --> 02:21.220 they started on there. So we will have a warm welcome for them, of course. And also in the 02:21.220 --> 02:26.520 housekeeping section here, I guess I should mention that since we did miss an episode last week, 02:26.700 --> 02:31.880 and when I say we, I mean Buddy Droops, I'm going to be taking the show back over for a little while, 02:31.940 --> 02:36.520 try to get us caught back up on some things so Droops can take care of some personal stuff he's 02:36.520 --> 02:41.240 got to deal with. So tune in for some cool shows coming up. I've already been planning them, 02:41.360 --> 02:47.500 actually. The way this season was going to work, and is going to work, is that each of us, whoever 02:47.500 --> 02:53.000 that us ends up being, is going to take the show for, say, a couple months, or a month at a time, 02:53.060 --> 02:58.840 maybe two, however long we have, and kind of hand it off between all of us. That way everybody gets 02:58.840 --> 03:04.220 kind of a breath of fresh air, different hosts, different style of doing the show, different topics 03:04.220 --> 03:10.660 as well. Kind of rotate a lot of different things in there so it's not stale, bland, boring, stank dog 03:10.660 --> 03:16.200 every week, because I think we all know how pretty bad that can be at times. 03:17.160 --> 03:17.520 Seriously. 03:18.080 --> 03:24.100 But, all I can promise you is that I will not be doing any live shows. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. 03:24.980 --> 03:30.240 So, what I think what I'm going to do right now is I'm going to try to pull off a doubleheader next 03:30.240 --> 03:34.520 week, and no, that's nothing sexual. We're going to try to do two episodes back-to-back. 03:34.620 --> 03:39.180 First time ever, Binary Revolution Radio, Tuesday, September 12th, a week from today. 03:39.320 --> 03:47.100 We're going to do back-to-back episodes. So, tune in Tuesday and get three hours of Binary 03:47.100 --> 03:50.180 Revolution goodness. Is that a word? Goodness? 03:50.180 --> 03:54.080 No. Well, it is now. 03:54.080 --> 03:54.780 Definitely not. 03:56.620 --> 03:59.960 Well, you're going to get two, three hours of something. I don't know if it's goodness, 04:00.360 --> 04:07.040 badness, whatever. But, actually, maybe our email will give us a clue to that coming up later on. 04:07.100 --> 04:13.740 But, anyway, actually, because two weeks have passed, I have quite a bit of housekeeping to do. 04:14.400 --> 04:18.380 So, bear with me a little bit verbal. I know I'm running my mouth as usual, but I want to announce 04:18.380 --> 04:22.940 to everybody that Bell's Mind is back up and running. So, make sure you check out bellsmind.net. 04:23.500 --> 04:30.420 And the number for that is country code 1. That would be UNO for our Spanish-speaking listeners. 04:31.260 --> 04:40.520 And the area code of 712. Number is 432-9020. Now, for a non-retarded version of that, it's 04:40.520 --> 04:47.780 1-712-432-9020. And you can get your Binary Revolution radio fix over the phone, as well 04:47.780 --> 04:52.180 as some other shows. So, I know some people will be at work or will be out on the road 04:52.180 --> 04:55.040 or whatever. They'll listen to it on their cell phone. I've heard people say they listen 04:55.040 --> 04:59.340 to it on their cell while driving around for business or driving across the country, which 04:59.340 --> 05:04.620 is cool. So, we've got that back up and running. And more importantly than that, the coolest 05:04.620 --> 05:08.740 thing that we've all kind of been missing out on are the conferences. So, the conferences 05:08.740 --> 05:14.620 are back up and running. I was actually checking a few of those out earlier today. So, we have 05:14.620 --> 05:20.200 our official conference back up for Binary Revolution radio. And we could use a little 05:20.200 --> 05:24.500 help. It's pretty much the same engine that's always been on there. Same code that's been 05:24.500 --> 05:29.980 running. But we are in the process of making some changes. So, if you guys can call in and 05:29.980 --> 05:34.420 just do some testing. Make sure everything's working. Let us know if you get any errors. Let 05:34.420 --> 05:38.900 us know if you get any bugs or if there's anything you want added to it. But for the 05:38.900 --> 05:43.320 most part, it seems to be running okay. So, we want to do a little bit of stress test, 05:43.400 --> 05:49.180 see how to make sure it can handle a larger number of people. And we have some other things 05:49.180 --> 05:55.360 in the works. So, keep your eyes and ears out for some more announcements as they become 05:55.360 --> 06:00.540 available. So, now we're going to get on with the show. See, I didn't spend too awful long 06:00.540 --> 06:04.380 on housekeeping. And I'm going to skip the show and tell segment. I know how 06:04.380 --> 06:09.480 much you love it, Verbal. Don't cry. I'm going to skip the show and tell segment this 06:09.480 --> 06:13.720 week. I'm going to go to the original recipe formula the way I used to do it back in the 06:13.720 --> 06:20.240 day because of a particular reason. Because we have an email to open up the show with that 06:20.240 --> 06:25.540 Verbal was so excited to get. And I thought that that would be a nice way to start off the 06:25.540 --> 06:30.480 show. So, let's start off the show with a good old-fashioned email. 06:30.480 --> 06:56.920 Thanks, Stank. Well, actually, I just want to apologize for the sound quality and also the 06:56.920 --> 07:02.900 time delay in getting the show out the last couple of weeks. Now, like, so what had happened 07:02.900 --> 07:09.360 was last week, I had to go to my moon base because, like, something was messed up there. 07:09.600 --> 07:14.220 I don't know, something about Canon's not working. So, what happened was I was there and we had to, 07:14.220 --> 07:18.960 like, bounce the signal off a couple satellites. And the sound quality just kind of went down the 07:18.960 --> 07:23.480 tubes from that. You know how that happens if you, like, bounce things off of, like, orbital 07:23.480 --> 07:30.540 or whatever. I don't know. But basically, I'm back and we will be doing this show regularly and 07:30.540 --> 07:38.080 the sound quality will hopefully be better. So far, so good. This is my first email that I ever got 07:38.080 --> 07:44.620 for doing Bid and Rev Radio. And it's pretty nice. So, I will read it and share it with everyone. 07:45.220 --> 07:51.840 It reads, in my honest opinion, Bid and Rev Radio sucks. You claim to talk all about the hacking scene, 07:51.840 --> 07:57.800 but never talk about it. If hacking is fucking with your phone and setting up an asterisk server, 07:57.980 --> 08:05.680 spelled A-S-T-R-I-X, I'm in the wrong scene. I mean, damn, over 150 episodes and you guys barely 08:05.680 --> 08:11.680 touch on the subject of code breaking. All you guys talk about is news that can be found on FlashDot. 08:12.120 --> 08:16.980 Maybe this might offend you, a host, or others, but prove me wrong. Talk about something technical. 08:16.980 --> 08:22.340 So, explain how to break a database. Explain how to find the offset with your exploit code. 08:22.760 --> 08:26.940 If you aren't going to talk about code breaking or exploitation, then please stop mentioning 08:26.940 --> 08:32.780 the hacking scene. On a personal level, I bet you, Verbal, couldn't hack your way out of a paper bag. 08:33.040 --> 08:38.980 All in all, you suck at the online. That is from an anonymous show listener. 08:38.980 --> 08:45.440 His name is actually Samuel Manhattan, which doesn't really sound like a real name, 08:45.540 --> 08:50.060 but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Well, first of all, Samuel, thanks for the feedback 08:50.060 --> 08:55.460 and thanks for taking the time to listen to the show. Now, first of all, I've only been hosting 08:55.460 --> 09:00.980 the show for two episodes. Keep in mind, it's a radio show and, you know, it's not a class about 09:00.980 --> 09:06.040 hacking, so it's not our responsibility to teach you about SQL injections and buffer overflows. 09:06.040 --> 09:09.900 But we've done those. For the record, I think I'll be hosting the show in the near future 09:09.900 --> 09:13.900 and, you know, I'm going to try to put more technical content in it, but if you have any 09:13.900 --> 09:18.280 more ideas for topics, please let me know. And keep in mind, though, this is a radio show, 09:18.400 --> 09:23.140 so it's only voice, so anything too complicated requiring a visual aid is not going to happen. 09:23.880 --> 09:30.980 Well, here's the thing, is this person obviously has not listened to a lot of the episodes of 09:30.980 --> 09:36.200 the show because we have talked about SQL injection. I mean, I'm a database programmer 09:36.200 --> 09:41.540 for a living. I mean, I can, I've done topics like that. We've done several code-based topics, 09:42.000 --> 09:46.420 but you're absolutely right. They don't, they don't really translate well over voice only. 09:46.840 --> 09:51.060 So sometimes it's hard to talk about those topics. We don't shy away from them, though. 09:51.080 --> 09:57.100 We still have done several episodes. Gosh, I know just several jumped to mind that I've done 09:57.100 --> 10:01.920 with knot theory. We've had acidists on the show that's talked, we've done some, a lot of coding 10:01.920 --> 10:06.920 topics. We've had decius on the show. We've had just all kinds of people. We've had, you know, 10:06.960 --> 10:12.340 one of the things that, that I really think that makes the show different and that sets us apart 10:12.340 --> 10:16.820 and that we've always tried to do is that we do try to stay technical. You know, we, we always try 10:16.820 --> 10:23.960 to avoid politics as much as possible and stay on technical topics as best we can. But again, 10:23.960 --> 10:28.960 some of it doesn't translate well, but certainly it's there. Now there may have been like a run. 10:29.040 --> 10:33.800 You might've gotten caught in a run where there were a few episodes in a row about asterisk or 10:33.800 --> 10:39.420 something like that or whatever. But I think if you listen to the entire series, 10:40.200 --> 10:45.620 or if you were at the fifth hope or sixth hope, seventh, how many hopes are they up to now? 10:46.280 --> 10:51.040 Which hope did they have this year? I think it's the sixth. Well, I handed out at that episode of hope, 10:51.040 --> 10:56.760 we did the first episode of season four and I handed out a kind of a, I called it the best of 10:56.760 --> 11:02.420 binary revolution radio, but the subtitle says, well, the best we could do anyway. Um, and I picked 11:02.420 --> 11:08.140 out a DVD set coming out with all the big radio episodes. We might have something forward to that. 11:08.400 --> 11:13.620 We might have something. Thanks for putting me on the spot and making me commit, but, uh, we might be 11:13.620 --> 11:17.860 coming out with something, but I mean, it's all freely downloadable from the website and, you know, 11:17.860 --> 11:22.340 I suck up the bandwidth costs for all that. So feel free to hit the site and download every episode 11:22.340 --> 11:28.120 that you want. And we have, the show notes have kind of fallen behind. I'm still waiting for some 11:28.120 --> 11:32.400 volunteers of people who want to do show notes, but, um, show notes have fallen behind, but there's always 11:32.400 --> 11:38.480 a title of every episode, a list of the, the co-hosts that are on that episode. So you can always go back 11:38.480 --> 11:43.380 and find the ones that interest you and, and single out and find those specific, um, episodes and, 11:43.380 --> 11:49.260 and maybe there'll be more to your liking. Um, I really don't know what else to say to that. I 11:49.260 --> 11:53.900 mean, this is very obvious to me that that person has not listened to very many episodes. They've 11:53.900 --> 11:57.880 probably listened to it for the last, I don't know, week, two weeks, maybe a couple months, 11:57.900 --> 12:02.260 and they just haven't heard the entire body of work that we've put out there. But guess what? 12:02.360 --> 12:06.540 This is season four. I don't know what episode we're up to already, but I mean, we must be doing 12:06.540 --> 12:11.800 something right that we're still around this long. So, or something really wrong and we just ignore 12:11.800 --> 12:18.060 everybody. Whatever. Whatever works. I have a question. Shoot. What does you suck at the 12:18.060 --> 12:22.280 online mean? I don't know what that means. I don't know, but I like it. It's got a ring 12:22.280 --> 12:28.280 to it. I'm going to start saying that now. You suck at the online. I mean, I think it's 12:28.280 --> 12:30.800 like, I think it's like, I think it's like you on the soundboard. Yeah. I think that's 12:30.800 --> 12:37.820 like you fail at the interweb or something. I'm not sure. You fail at the interweb. You suck 12:37.820 --> 12:45.000 at online. At the online. The online. Wasn't there a, was it, was it a congressman or something 12:45.000 --> 12:50.800 recently with the whole tubes thing where he was saying that he sent, he sent an, he 12:50.800 --> 12:55.900 sent an internet. The internet is not a dumb truck. It is a series of tubes. Well, not 12:55.900 --> 13:00.940 even that. The one line that said, where he said I, his secretary sent out an internet and 13:00.940 --> 13:06.060 it didn't get back till five days later or something like that. What? Yeah. An email? Is 13:06.060 --> 13:10.640 that what she meant? That was the stupidest. That guy is awesome. Those are the people 13:10.640 --> 13:15.400 running our country, ladies and gentlemen. Had a little round of applause. Wonderful, wonderfully 13:15.400 --> 13:19.480 intelligent people. All right. Well, let's do a couple other emails here. It's been a 13:19.480 --> 13:22.820 couple of weeks, so I've, unfortunately I do have some backed up and I want to get out 13:22.820 --> 13:27.460 of the way here. Uh, let's see. I'll do a couple of them real quick. Um, first one is from 13:27.460 --> 13:32.780 Iman rogue who says, hi, something happened to the last two episodes of binary revolution. 13:32.780 --> 13:37.500 It sounds like it's being recorded through a bad satellite connection. Upload errors. 13:38.140 --> 13:44.340 Keep, keep up the good work. And going right along with that is a message from Oxquan, our 13:44.340 --> 13:48.320 friend across the pond there, who says, hello, BinRev. I'm sorry to report that the sound 13:48.320 --> 13:53.940 quality in episodes 160 and 161 is horrible. What has happened? Codec you've used is making 13:53.940 --> 14:00.480 it sound like a garbage, making it sound like garbage and the file size isn't smaller thanks 14:00.480 --> 14:04.420 to it. So can you please distribute it with better audio quality? Cheers. 14:05.460 --> 14:09.800 Moonbase. Moonbase. Yes. You referred to that earlier. That's completely a verbal's fault. 14:09.880 --> 14:16.040 But no, actually, um, 159 admittedly sucked. It totally sucked monkey balls. There's nothing 14:16.040 --> 14:20.620 we can say about that, but, um, I guess, uh, Droops didn't have time to get his equipment 14:20.620 --> 14:26.260 set up properly. So, um, we had to kind of scramble for that one apparently and that came 14:26.260 --> 14:31.740 out the way it did and life goes on. Pretty bad 159. No debating that. Now, I did listen 14:31.740 --> 14:37.140 to 160 and 161, though, and they weren't, um, they were certainly listenable. I didn't 14:37.140 --> 14:41.860 think they were, like, bad exactly. They just weren't, um, the cleanest they could possibly 14:41.860 --> 14:46.340 be and that's probably going to take a little time to do some sound checks and tweaking and 14:46.340 --> 14:51.660 stuff like that. But keep in mind, too, that everybody has their own different way of 14:51.660 --> 14:56.400 recording the show. Um, like, Verbal and I were kind of joking earlier because I'm going 14:56.400 --> 15:02.640 back to my old school way with the microphone and the speakerphone. Very simple. Um, but 15:02.640 --> 15:06.980 I like it because I get good sound quality because it's directly in front of me and I'm 15:06.980 --> 15:11.780 getting the best, highest VoIP quality setting I can get coming through my phone. I can't 15:11.780 --> 15:15.140 do anything about Verbal's voice. That's the way he was born. So I can't improve that 15:15.140 --> 15:15.400 any. 15:15.400 --> 15:22.140 Uh, if you listened to the last show, someone wrote in and said my voice was sexy, so I 15:22.140 --> 15:23.100 think it's okay. 15:23.300 --> 15:26.460 Actually, I did, I did hear that. You guys, you guys, uh... 15:26.460 --> 15:26.980 Yeah, yeah, thanks. 15:27.140 --> 15:28.220 You hooking up now or what? 15:29.560 --> 15:30.380 You know it. 15:30.540 --> 15:32.560 Did you say, are you guys, like, internet boyfriends? 15:33.680 --> 15:36.100 Yeah, I think it's actually Ratchet, but, you know, whatever. 15:36.940 --> 15:40.200 Well, he has to hide it behind a different name because he doesn't want people to know 15:40.200 --> 15:41.900 it's him, but you just outed him. Good job. 15:42.960 --> 15:43.320 Exactly. 15:43.320 --> 15:49.240 Even though he did just get married a few months ago, but, yeah, that's irrelevant. 15:49.480 --> 15:52.560 That's exactly why. Come on. Jesus Christ. 15:53.260 --> 15:58.060 Oh, and, you know, the other thing, too, is, well, first of all, doing it with a microphone, 15:58.800 --> 16:02.780 I guess it's a better sound quality, but I usually can only get one person on, maybe two 16:02.780 --> 16:07.520 if I'm able to three-way another person in, but sound quality starts degrading and stuff 16:07.520 --> 16:13.060 like that. But the way Black Ratchet and Strom started doing the show with the VoIP, you know, 16:13.060 --> 16:17.180 going a little bit more new school with it. You're going to have variations in the quality 16:17.180 --> 16:21.060 as they do the different compression algorithms and stuff like that, which they gave a great 16:21.060 --> 16:27.100 presentation at DEF CON. Not this most recent one, but the one before that was 13. Is that 16:27.100 --> 16:27.320 right? 16:28.460 --> 16:29.460 Yes, that is correct. 16:29.460 --> 16:33.900 The one that I spoke at was 13. 14 was the one just a month ago, right? 16:34.580 --> 16:34.840 Yeah. 16:34.840 --> 16:40.020 Okay, so they gave a great presentation there where they demoed and showed a bunch of the 16:40.020 --> 16:44.040 compression algorithms and stuff, which was really cool. So it's going to take a little 16:44.040 --> 16:47.360 time to kind of debug and iron that out, and I think that's what Buddy Droops is going 16:47.360 --> 16:52.080 through. But the benefit is that you're going to have a whole lot more hosts on there. 16:52.160 --> 16:59.040 You're running it off of an asterisk box, Mr. Manhattan, Mr. Manhattan. So you get a lot 16:59.040 --> 17:04.940 more flexibility. So, and the ability to do live shows. Verbal, can I get an amen? 17:06.760 --> 17:07.160 What? 17:07.580 --> 17:10.260 I need to insert like some crickets chirping at that point. 17:12.800 --> 17:14.120 All right, crickets chirping. 17:14.380 --> 17:15.540 Well, and honestly... 17:15.540 --> 17:23.060 Don't make me laugh. Okay, so the other thing, and I've said this on the show before 17:23.060 --> 17:31.520 too, because this comes up once in a while, I like the fact that we have a different sound. 17:32.020 --> 17:39.240 We've never, ever purported to be anything more than some hackers making do with the equipment 17:39.240 --> 17:46.100 they got, working things out software-wise, hardware-wise. That's what hackers do. One of 17:46.100 --> 17:49.400 the many things, along with asterisk and... What else did he say? 17:50.480 --> 17:51.840 True turntables and a microphone? 17:51.840 --> 17:57.820 Yeah, that's what it was. Something like that. And it's not all about code... He wants 17:57.820 --> 18:03.300 us to do code... And never mind, forget that guy. But yeah, we're not in this giant building 18:03.300 --> 18:08.340 in New York City, where we have the soundproof studio, and all the fancy microphones, and 18:08.340 --> 18:13.160 the little swinging from the ceiling, and all this racks of equipment, and we don't have 18:13.160 --> 18:19.120 a monthly beg-a-thon for you to buy us new equipment, so we sound the same. We are... 18:19.120 --> 18:21.780 We do. I probably have to start talking like this, you know what I'm saying? 18:21.780 --> 18:24.100 Well, well, WNBC. 18:24.100 --> 18:30.520 Actually, we might be picked up by NPR next month, but I'm not sure. I have to talk to those 18:30.520 --> 18:35.420 guys. But we'll be coming right after some show about rice, I think. 18:35.700 --> 18:40.140 Well, you know what? I'm still going to say fuck. So NPR's going to have to have their 18:40.140 --> 18:41.100 finger on the edit button. 18:41.100 --> 18:44.440 It worked for Howard Stern. 18:44.640 --> 18:50.860 I love NPR as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to pull back or hold back on anything 18:50.860 --> 18:58.100 just for any terrestrial radio of any kind. But, yeah, I should send Howard a letter and 18:58.100 --> 18:59.740 see if I can get on the Howard Stern channel. 19:00.720 --> 19:02.540 You should. XM Radio. 19:02.820 --> 19:06.380 Wouldn't that be awesome? Serious. Serious. Not XM. Serious. 19:07.120 --> 19:10.280 Oh, serious. Yeah. Straight to your brain. 19:10.280 --> 19:15.240 Yeah. So, yeah, we're not doing the beg-a-thons every freaking month, begging you for money 19:15.240 --> 19:20.100 for equipment and rent and all that kind of good stuff. So, yeah, you take what you get. 19:20.240 --> 19:25.780 We do try to make good quality. Occasionally, there's going to be mistakes. Again, 159 was 19:25.780 --> 19:31.300 one of those mistakes. 160 and 161, to me, I thought they were perfectly listenable. They 19:31.300 --> 19:34.680 may not have been what we're used to, but I thought they were perfectly listenable. And 19:34.680 --> 19:39.320 again, it gives it that feel of being a hacking show. It's an underground thing that we're 19:39.320 --> 19:44.520 doing however we have to. I mean, you know, what if we're doing, sometimes we can do a 19:44.520 --> 19:49.120 show from cell phones where you get even less quality, especially in the United States, but 19:49.120 --> 19:53.420 that's a whole other rant. And we'll get not theory on for that rant because I know how 19:53.420 --> 19:57.660 much he loves that topic. But anyway, let's stop beating that topic to death. Let's do a 19:57.660 --> 20:01.600 couple more emails because these are kind of long, but I'm going to read them as quickly 20:01.600 --> 20:10.740 as possible and move on with life. Okay. Next email comes from Bel Narlo. Does that sound 20:10.740 --> 20:10.960 right? 20:11.760 --> 20:13.320 Yes, I think that's how you say it. 20:13.560 --> 20:17.220 Bel Narlo. I'm going to say it with an accent. It sounds Italian. Bel Narlo. 20:17.220 --> 20:23.640 Bel Narlo. Hiya all. Just wanted to reply to Stank's question regarding how we see how 20:23.640 --> 20:28.880 the revolution is going. I figured as a new addition to the whole scene, I might have something 20:28.880 --> 20:35.620 useful to say. Anyways, I only recently stumbled onto BinRev and Phonomicon and Hacker Voice. 20:36.000 --> 20:42.120 I live in the UK. We have a lot of listeners in the UK, by the way. So within the last year, 20:42.120 --> 20:51.800 I figured out that A, hacking isn't bad. B, I am in fact a hacker. And C, there is a great 20:51.800 --> 20:58.260 community out there with loads of people willing to help. I'm actually going to interrupt the email 20:58.260 --> 21:04.260 a little bit here just to add a little bit to each one of those. A, hacking isn't bad necessarily. 21:05.560 --> 21:10.020 I think anybody would be naive to say that there aren't some people out there doing bad things 21:10.020 --> 21:15.240 in the name of hacking because that's how hacking gets the bad name. But real hacking isn't bad. 21:15.320 --> 21:21.860 That's absolutely true. B, I am in fact a hacker. I think a lot of people would be surprised that 21:21.860 --> 21:27.180 they are able to say that. And C, a great community out there with loads of people willing to help. 21:28.520 --> 21:34.160 Actually, we're going to touch on that on our closing comments, something along those lines. 21:34.160 --> 21:38.940 So I'll hold off on that. But yes, there is a great community out there. But you really have to dig 21:38.940 --> 21:43.720 through a lot of shit to find it sometimes. There is also a part of this community that's not as 21:43.720 --> 21:48.980 supportive as I would like it to be. So that's where Binary Revolution kind of stands out and 21:48.980 --> 21:54.640 separates itself from a lot of that negativity. So we are glad that you found us and you're welcome 21:54.640 --> 22:01.120 to participate and stick around. So anyway, let me jump back to his email here. And he goes on to say, 22:01.120 --> 22:07.020 As I said, I needed to learn first that in fact I was a hacker or for that matter what the definition 22:07.020 --> 22:13.500 of a hacker is. I too was brainwashed by the media. From several of the hacker media streams and the 22:13.500 --> 22:18.800 BinRev radio stream, I figured out there was a community out there for me. I decided to join the 22:18.800 --> 22:24.400 BinRev forums and visit the IRC channel once in a while. I was welcomed immediately and made to feel 22:24.400 --> 22:30.300 at home. See people, this is why we try to tell people in IRC, even though it's IRC, you can't be a dick to 22:30.300 --> 22:35.480 people. You know, this is an impression that you give off of BinRev and what we're about and what 22:35.480 --> 22:40.100 I'm about. And I don't want to reflect poorly on the revolution by having a couple assholes in there. 22:40.160 --> 22:44.740 And same thing with the forums. That's why people get banned. I'm sorry. Life, that's how it goes, 22:44.840 --> 22:52.100 you know. Anyway, he goes on to say, I keep interrupting his email here. He says, I still haven't 22:52.100 --> 22:56.300 given back to the hacker community as I feel that even though I've been a Unix admin for years, 22:56.300 --> 23:02.540 I am, quote, subpar, unquote. I still reply to posts on the various hacker forums on the subjects 23:02.540 --> 23:08.080 I feel comfortable with, but that is about it. I have, however, been inspired to give back to the 23:08.080 --> 23:14.400 user community at large. As such, I've started with a friend, a podcast aimed at the users. And I'm 23:14.400 --> 23:22.120 constantly contemplating subjects for TWAT radio, but haven't found one yet. So basically, I want to say 23:22.120 --> 23:27.740 the community you guys helped to build, welcome me in, and has inspired me to, in turn, pass on my 23:27.740 --> 23:34.700 knowledge in the areas I feel confident in. Keep up the great show, and I'm sure I and people like 23:34.700 --> 23:40.820 me will invest more in the community that has given us so much already. Thanks loads. 23:40.820 --> 23:51.320 Thank you very much for that email, Bernardo. I think you hit it right on the head. The point of 23:51.320 --> 23:57.600 the revolution is that if we each share our knowledge and what we're good at, and I've said 23:57.600 --> 24:03.000 many times we're not all good at everything. Some would say that I'm not good at anything. Whatever 24:03.000 --> 24:09.860 works for you. But by sharing what we do know and what knowledge we do have, that's what makes the 24:09.860 --> 24:14.820 community grow, and that's exactly what the revolution is. We started with a very small core group of 24:14.820 --> 24:21.040 people with FinRev, and it grew as we shared, and it grew as we shared and learned from others, and it 24:21.040 --> 24:26.860 grew to the point where now everybody's sharing and everybody's helping everybody, and that is what the 24:26.860 --> 24:32.500 binary revolution is all about, and you've got it completely. Verbal, you feel me on this or what? 24:32.500 --> 25:01.500 No, I completely agree with you. I mean, whatever you just said. No, but seriously, though, like you said, I'm glad you found us, and if you don't have a subject for TWAT Radio or if you want to participate and don't know what's the best way to go about it, just go in RSC, find me or anyone else in the DPP, and then ask us what there is to do. We always have things going on. 25:01.500 --> 25:05.680 So, you know, just ask, and I will give you something to do. 25:06.500 --> 25:31.480 Absolutely. Absolutely. And actually, on the topic of IRC, quickly, because he did mention it in here, if you do, any listeners out there, first of all, you're welcome to come to the IRC network. We have a very active channel. There's always 40 to 50 people in there at any given time, and easily half of them are chatting. I mean, there's always people idling that come and go, but there's easily, you know, a lot of half the room chatting. 25:31.480 --> 25:36.200 Chatting about something or other, or having emo day, or whatever fun we feel like having. 25:37.320 --> 25:39.220 Don't like fun of emo kids, you ass. 25:39.220 --> 26:05.220 Oh, man. Just because you come in and somebody, you know, people might treat you like a dick, or they might be rude to you, or they might be mean. Keep in mind that it is IRC. We are not, and never have been, and never will. We're not going to try to impose a bunch of rules in IRC. IRC is what it is. It's the wild west of the internet. It's the way we've described it, and I think that's an apt description. 26:05.220 --> 26:24.120 So, we're not going to completely control anything, or make a bunch of rules. With the forum, we do. That's a little bit different. But with the IRC, we're pretty much going to let people go until they cross certain lines of dropping docs, or illegal activities of some kind, attacking the server or our users. That's when we'll cross a different line. 26:24.120 --> 26:37.640 But for the most part, take everything with a grain of salt, and understand that only the channel operators, only those people at the top, are the people that are really going to speak for BinRev, or speak for the channel in any way. 26:37.720 --> 26:46.160 So, if you ever have any problems with other people, that's the ones you would need to contact. Those are the ones that you can trust, and that will treat you with respect in the channel. 26:46.160 --> 26:53.820 So, keep that in mind, that don't let one jerk, or one asshole in the channel ruin your experience. 26:55.060 --> 26:56.260 And just one other thing. 26:56.620 --> 27:04.440 So, I am one of the IRC Ops, and if you have a problem, just come to me, and I will deal with it. 27:04.440 --> 27:17.880 I mean, definitely, there are ass fucks in the channel, but I'm not, you know, we're not in the business of banning, or kicking people, or talking people, or recommending them for not being nice to you. 27:18.060 --> 27:18.440 That's right. 27:18.440 --> 27:19.600 You're going to have to deal with it. 27:19.880 --> 27:28.040 But if something, you know, that you feel is, you know, messed up is happening, just send me an email, or whatever, and I will deal with it. 27:28.700 --> 27:31.080 Absolutely right. Deal with it as best we can, anyway. 27:31.460 --> 27:35.920 And you've always got ignore. You've always got slash ignore. 27:37.100 --> 27:41.080 So, we can help you learn how to use the slash ignore function, too. 27:42.020 --> 27:42.320 All right. 27:42.380 --> 27:50.180 And the only other thing in this email I wanted to kind of mention, too, was that his point that he, you know, he discovered or realized that he is, in fact, a hacker. 27:50.460 --> 27:55.300 And I really, honestly, and truly believe that some people are hackers, and they don't even know it. 27:55.300 --> 27:56.660 They don't recognize it. 27:58.040 --> 28:11.820 I know it sounds kind of probably different than the definition of hacker traditionally, of a complete computer expert or a complete, I don't know, outside subversive, try to break the computer, try to push the boundaries. 28:12.340 --> 28:14.480 Yes, that's all true, and it's all accurate. 28:14.480 --> 28:29.020 But I think anybody that thinks outside of the lines, anybody that's not limited to the way that they think about things or the way they view things, anybody who doesn't accept no for an answer, to me, that is the hacker mindset. 28:29.020 --> 28:30.940 So, I think a lot of people have it. 28:31.500 --> 28:41.060 They may not be, quote, computer hackers, or they may not be traditional hackers, or they may not be active in the hacking community. 28:41.060 --> 28:49.700 But if you've got that way of thinking, I would argue, and I would argue pretty heavily, that you have what it takes to be a hacker. 28:49.820 --> 28:56.700 You have the makings of a hacker, and could easily become an active member of the hacking community. 28:56.700 --> 29:09.200 I've seen and met people that had no idea and no clue and no interest in hacking until I've sat and talked to them and taught them about what hacking is and is not. 29:09.640 --> 29:11.760 And I've given speeches to kids. 29:11.880 --> 29:21.380 I've given speeches to businesses and stuff like that where I explain those things, what it is and what it is not, why we do things and why this stuff happens. 29:21.380 --> 29:26.420 And, you know, of course, mention the media definition and how inaccurate it is and things like that. 29:26.760 --> 29:32.640 And people actually suddenly have their eyes open and they realize, you know what, I think outside of the box sometimes. 29:32.800 --> 29:35.360 I try to think of ways to do things differently. 29:35.540 --> 29:38.000 That, you know, doesn't make me a bad person. 29:38.080 --> 29:39.400 It doesn't make me an evil hacker. 29:39.780 --> 29:43.480 A lot of people have that mentality, and it's not a bad thing. 29:43.600 --> 29:48.280 So, grasping, what I'm trying to say is feel your inner hacker. 29:48.280 --> 29:52.120 Feel your inner hacking soul. 29:53.720 --> 29:55.240 All right, enough with the hippie crap. 29:56.000 --> 29:56.420 One more. 29:56.520 --> 30:02.140 I mean, so for me, like, I'm actually personally, I'm, like, really afraid of the word hacker. 30:02.440 --> 30:06.920 Not afraid, but, like, I just don't like to use it because I don't know what it means. 30:07.380 --> 30:09.360 I mean, it's like fuck or douchebag. 30:09.440 --> 30:10.680 Like, what does that mean? 30:11.100 --> 30:13.800 You know, like, I call people those things all the time. 30:13.960 --> 30:16.280 Well, when a man and a woman... 30:16.280 --> 30:21.060 So, I just try not to even use that word, and, like, I mean, to me, it doesn't mean anything. 30:21.900 --> 30:25.560 I mean, there are so many definitions, and, like, people, like, fighting over it. 30:25.600 --> 30:26.280 It's just retarded. 30:26.940 --> 30:27.940 That's my opinion, anyway. 30:28.180 --> 30:31.660 Well, the word fuck verbal is when a man and a woman love each other very, very... 30:31.660 --> 30:32.100 You know what? 30:32.120 --> 30:32.840 We'll do that offline. 30:32.960 --> 30:33.860 We'll take that after the show. 30:34.380 --> 30:36.940 With the bee penis and the butterfly vagina. 30:37.240 --> 30:38.360 The birds and the bees. 30:38.500 --> 30:39.140 Yeah, we'll do all that. 30:39.500 --> 30:40.460 Oh, the bird vagina. 30:40.560 --> 30:40.960 I'm sorry. 30:41.180 --> 30:42.460 Douchebag, you're on your own for that one. 30:42.480 --> 30:43.380 I'm not helping with that one. 30:43.380 --> 30:44.140 I'm not touching that. 30:44.140 --> 30:50.960 I've got such a rude joke I'm holding back about a particular person in IRC, but I'm not going to go there. 30:51.360 --> 30:53.520 I'm going to go on to our next email instead. 30:53.860 --> 30:58.040 Our next email comes from Sid, C-I-D, who says, 30:58.740 --> 30:59.660 Droops and Stank. 30:59.720 --> 31:00.740 Okay, this is not for you, Verbal. 31:00.780 --> 31:01.540 You can't listen to this. 31:02.340 --> 31:02.700 Dark. 31:03.120 --> 31:04.020 Droops and Stank. 31:04.020 --> 31:08.180 I just listened to episode 160, and it really hit me in the balls. 31:08.440 --> 31:09.160 Sorry about that. 31:09.660 --> 31:17.880 I mean, it's not like I've been in the forums or IRC bitching and stuff, but on that same note, I haven't really done anything to actually help the revolution, and that sucks. 31:18.400 --> 31:23.740 It sucks because I really believe in this binary revolution, and I've gotten so much from this community over the years. 31:23.740 --> 31:25.600 I feel like a sponge. 31:25.740 --> 31:31.660 I've been soaking up knowledge and info and culture and entertainment from you guys right from the start almost. 31:31.780 --> 31:35.160 RFA, BinRev, HackTV, Infonomicon, TWAT, all of it. 31:35.440 --> 31:36.940 I soak this shit up. 31:37.180 --> 31:46.040 You guys have been a constant source of information and inspiration to me for a long time, and I feel like I haven't given back anything of real substance. 31:46.040 --> 31:51.940 So, sure, I've turned a few people on to the show. 31:52.600 --> 31:55.420 This is a little tough to read, which I'll explain in just a second. 31:55.800 --> 32:00.840 I've turned a few people on to the show, but as Dool used to say, I haven't, quote, put up or shut up. 32:01.740 --> 32:05.180 And Ep 160 really reiterated that point to me. 32:05.320 --> 32:12.380 I do have a lot of ideas, whether good or bad, and I can feel this fire within me, but I've never really let that fire out like I should. 32:12.380 --> 32:19.820 I have, and I have worked on some small projects, but again, I haven't given back enough for what I've received from this community. 32:20.340 --> 32:22.600 And I'm going to do what I can to change that. 32:22.940 --> 32:26.480 You've got a very good thing here, and I don't want to just take it for granted. 32:26.940 --> 32:30.160 I'll stop my rant now, but I wanted to tell you thanks for everything. 32:30.600 --> 32:32.880 And sorry about the split mail and weird formatting. 32:33.020 --> 32:35.200 I'm on an old phone on the road. 32:36.080 --> 32:36.480 Later. 32:37.640 --> 32:39.940 Sid, thank you very, very much for this email. 32:39.940 --> 32:45.260 And again, the cool, first of all, the very cool part of this message, it was four separate emails that I got. 32:46.220 --> 32:49.300 Each one short and had dot, dot, dot, or has continued. 32:49.420 --> 32:52.640 I combined them all together because he sent this from his cell phone. 32:52.740 --> 32:55.100 So first of all, that was really cool to get a message like that. 32:55.140 --> 32:58.020 I think that was a first for BinRev, or at least for me on BinRev. 32:58.640 --> 33:00.540 So that alone makes this a cool email. 33:00.540 --> 33:10.720 But there was something specific that I wanted to point out in this email, and that is that you mentioned that all you have done is turn a few people on to the show. 33:11.240 --> 33:12.500 Well, that's a good thing. 33:12.580 --> 33:13.860 That is a very good thing. 33:14.320 --> 33:19.860 We've never been the type of people to go out and promote our stuff outside of the BinRev community. 33:20.340 --> 33:21.080 We really haven't. 33:21.080 --> 33:25.620 Now, we've been accused of doing a lot of cross-promoting within our own projects and sites. 33:26.240 --> 33:31.300 You know, we'll come on the radio show and probably repeat probably too many times some of our projects. 33:31.400 --> 33:35.440 But we're trying to get people interested in them and getting people aware of the projects. 33:35.780 --> 33:41.980 But we've never really gone outside of the BinRev community and posted on other forums or other sites too much. 33:41.980 --> 33:48.880 We let the site live and die on its own merits, and we let it get Googled and people will search. 33:49.140 --> 33:56.100 And if we've got the information that's valid and floats to the top of Google or whatever your search engine of choice is, 33:57.040 --> 34:02.760 we figure that that's the best testament to the site and the content of the site. 34:02.900 --> 34:04.780 So we've never really wanted to go out there. 34:04.880 --> 34:11.520 So we do hope now that if people do like the show, that they'll go out and spread it on their own. 34:11.520 --> 34:17.860 If they're motivated enough to do that, if they want to give back and help us promote the show and promote, 34:18.080 --> 34:22.200 again, I say the word promote as though this is some sort of business or something, 34:22.320 --> 34:27.120 but trust me, I'm losing every bit of money I put into this business. 34:27.240 --> 34:29.620 We're not making any money, so all this is free. 34:29.760 --> 34:32.100 I pay for the bandwidth, which is fine. 34:32.600 --> 34:33.940 So go out there and spread the word. 34:34.040 --> 34:35.180 I'm totally okay with that. 34:35.220 --> 34:36.960 If anything, I want more people to learn. 34:37.060 --> 34:40.900 I don't mind paying if it will help this community grow. 34:40.900 --> 34:44.400 I will come out of pocket with my own hard-earned cash. 34:44.800 --> 34:47.720 Okay, sometimes not as hard as other times earned, but anyway. 34:48.200 --> 34:52.960 I'll come out of my pocket with cash if it will help this community grow in a positive way 34:52.960 --> 34:57.280 and get more people involved in a positive way in producing things. 34:57.720 --> 34:59.260 So I'm totally for that. 34:59.360 --> 35:04.760 And if someone feels either motivated enough or they just want to contribute or they want to help out, 35:04.840 --> 35:06.420 that's one of the things that you can do. 35:06.420 --> 35:13.900 Again, we don't do it ourselves, but anyone who goes out and spreads the good words about our projects 35:13.900 --> 35:18.480 and the things that we're doing, Lord knows that there's plenty of people that go out there 35:18.480 --> 35:19.500 and spread the bad things. 35:19.580 --> 35:22.420 You know, people always want to complain and talk and bitch loudly, 35:22.820 --> 35:26.480 but when it's something they enjoy and they like, they do it quietly. 35:26.480 --> 35:30.880 So, yeah, I see all the things out there that people post and they'll go out and cuss us 35:30.880 --> 35:36.060 and send an email to Verbal about how much he sucks and he's only done two episodes of the show. 35:36.880 --> 35:38.440 Hey, that email was quality. 35:38.700 --> 35:39.440 It's better than yours. 35:39.600 --> 35:39.920 Come on. 35:40.360 --> 35:41.820 Yeah, so you know what? 35:41.920 --> 35:44.440 So seriously, thank you for at least spreading the word about it. 35:44.900 --> 35:47.580 And, you know, you contribute what you can, however you can. 35:47.660 --> 35:51.620 If that's going out and promoting the show and bringing someone in, you've helped the community. 35:52.000 --> 35:52.600 You really have. 35:52.600 --> 35:56.640 If you go out and bring five people in or even two people or one person back 35:56.640 --> 36:00.740 who registers and learns from the site, you've helped the community grow. 36:01.700 --> 36:07.500 Sometimes, I guess to put it short in a way that I tried to explain to someone else before in IRC, 36:08.000 --> 36:13.020 sometimes you can help the community by just shutting the fuck up. 36:13.740 --> 36:14.960 Don't bitch and complain. 36:15.520 --> 36:18.440 Just go out and either support it or don't support it. 36:18.440 --> 36:22.280 And if you support it, go out there, spread the good words, and people will come and enjoy it. 36:22.600 --> 36:26.360 And sometimes that's the best thing that you can do to support the community. 36:27.000 --> 36:28.740 So if you like it, great. 36:28.840 --> 36:30.980 If you don't like it, great too. 36:33.020 --> 36:34.640 All right, so that's enough email verbal. 36:34.720 --> 36:36.420 We've got some topics to talk about, right? 36:36.520 --> 36:39.700 We're, let's see, a third into the show, I would guess here. 36:39.820 --> 36:44.000 So let's do some main show topics, shall we? 36:44.860 --> 36:46.100 Yes, that's a good idea. 36:46.100 --> 36:56.460 All right, well, let's do, first of all, since you and Noelani started a segment last episode, 36:56.540 --> 37:00.860 not last week, but last episode, why don't we get her on the line? 37:02.020 --> 37:04.600 Is that cool with you and continue on with that? 37:04.600 --> 37:05.380 Yeah, definitely, she's ready. 37:05.620 --> 37:07.380 A little Geek Love Radio action here. 37:07.480 --> 37:08.480 Okay, so hold on here. 37:08.520 --> 37:10.600 I'm going to, let's see. 37:10.680 --> 37:11.520 I know how I'm going to do this. 37:11.520 --> 37:12.780 I'm not going to stop recording. 37:12.900 --> 37:17.760 I'm going to go, and I'm going to do, let's see, take a little feedback. 37:18.020 --> 37:18.460 How about that? 37:18.540 --> 37:19.140 Okay, can you hear me? 37:20.240 --> 37:25.120 All right, so what I'm going to do is I'm going to dial and flash her in and then put you back. 37:25.180 --> 37:26.740 So you're off of speakerphone right now. 37:26.960 --> 37:32.360 So hang on just a second, and I'm going to keep talking so that you guys don't get dead air. 37:33.280 --> 37:37.180 And I am going to flash over to another line. 37:37.180 --> 37:44.420 I am going to dial the super secret magic number here to Noelani. 37:44.580 --> 37:45.900 And no, you cannot have it. 37:46.480 --> 37:47.860 It is totally private. 37:49.420 --> 37:51.940 And I am going to get her on the phone. 37:52.780 --> 37:54.000 And it's ringing right now. 37:54.040 --> 37:55.360 So this is what's called stalling. 37:55.520 --> 37:57.120 I could have edited it out, but you know what? 37:57.180 --> 38:00.800 Once again, we're a hacking show, so we're just going to kind of keep going with it. 38:01.540 --> 38:03.400 And Noelani, are you on the line? 38:04.240 --> 38:05.220 Okay, hang on here. 38:05.260 --> 38:06.880 We're not stopping to do this. 38:06.880 --> 38:10.500 We're doing this on the air, live, to add to the little, you know, the excitement factor. 38:10.580 --> 38:10.940 So hang on. 38:11.040 --> 38:13.960 Let me flash Verbal back on. 38:15.200 --> 38:15.520 Hopefully. 38:15.680 --> 38:16.400 Cross your fingers. 38:16.540 --> 38:17.560 And Verbal, you should be back. 38:21.220 --> 38:22.180 And we have Noelani. 38:22.260 --> 38:22.860 Okay, so hold on. 38:22.880 --> 38:24.520 I'm going to put you both back on speakerphone. 38:25.700 --> 38:27.400 And some nasty little feedback. 38:27.640 --> 38:29.060 But okay, are we all back on the show together? 38:29.140 --> 38:29.800 Verbal, are you there? 38:30.600 --> 38:31.280 Check, check. 38:31.340 --> 38:31.800 All right. 38:32.680 --> 38:33.640 Noelani, are you there? 38:34.120 --> 38:34.480 Hello. 38:34.480 --> 38:37.720 Oh, I am so fucking elite. 38:38.760 --> 38:39.760 I have mastered. 38:40.500 --> 38:41.800 That is hot. 38:42.120 --> 38:43.960 I have mastered the art of three-way calling. 38:44.080 --> 38:45.140 That's all it takes, I guess. 38:46.420 --> 38:47.740 In your face, Sean. 38:48.000 --> 38:48.940 In your face. 38:49.800 --> 38:51.940 And I didn't need asterisks to do it. 38:52.420 --> 38:52.620 Cool. 38:52.620 --> 38:57.160 Okay, okay, so I tell you what, I'm going to shut up for a little bit. 38:57.200 --> 38:58.220 I'm going to have my sweet iced tea. 38:58.640 --> 39:01.260 I'm going to shut up and I'm going to let you guys continue on with the show. 39:02.220 --> 39:02.460 Okay. 39:02.980 --> 39:03.480 All right. 39:04.560 --> 39:05.400 Are we ready? 39:05.600 --> 39:05.840 Whatever. 39:06.140 --> 39:06.820 We're recording. 39:06.940 --> 39:08.820 We have not stopped recording the entire time. 39:09.520 --> 39:10.740 Okay, let's do it. 39:11.040 --> 39:11.520 All right. 39:12.980 --> 39:13.380 Okay. 39:13.740 --> 39:14.520 What do you want me to say? 39:15.000 --> 39:15.320 What? 39:15.420 --> 39:15.760 Nothing. 39:15.960 --> 39:16.720 I'm going to talk. 39:16.820 --> 39:17.720 Stop saying stop. 39:17.720 --> 39:20.340 All right. 39:21.440 --> 39:22.120 All right. 39:22.200 --> 39:24.860 Well, now we have Noelani joining us. 39:24.980 --> 39:28.840 If you remember the last episode, we started talking about, you know, 39:28.900 --> 39:33.880 how kind of what a girl is looking for and a geek guy or how, you know, 39:33.940 --> 39:38.480 you would approach someone in a certain situation and, you know, 39:38.840 --> 39:43.120 engage in a conversation and, you know, hopefully get a date out of it. 39:43.540 --> 39:45.740 Now, for you guys, I went to the Apple store. 39:46.640 --> 39:47.080 Right. 39:47.080 --> 39:55.380 You know, the thing is most of the people who listen to this show probably 39:55.380 --> 39:59.400 are not too comfortable with the club or bar scene, you know, or whatever. 39:59.920 --> 40:04.900 So we try to find some other avenues where they can meet people who share 40:04.900 --> 40:06.340 some common interest they have. 40:07.040 --> 40:11.360 And how many of you guys out there went to the Apple store after listening to 40:11.360 --> 40:12.140 the last episode? 40:12.140 --> 40:19.400 And if it works or whatever, you know, send us an email and loves to know about it. 40:20.320 --> 40:25.640 So this week we have Noelani back and we're going to talk more, a little bit more about 40:25.640 --> 40:29.000 that and continue with, you know, topics along the same line. 40:29.600 --> 40:31.100 So welcome back, Noelani. 40:31.560 --> 40:32.400 Hey, what's up, guys? 40:32.400 --> 40:34.580 Thank you so much. 40:36.360 --> 40:41.240 So actually, before we really begin, I have a question for you. 40:41.460 --> 40:45.740 So last time you were saying, okay, you want to go to the Apple store and, you know, 40:45.780 --> 40:50.220 if someone's, you know, looking at, like, say, a copy of Final Cut Pro, 40:50.380 --> 40:54.960 then a way you can engage them is by kind of, you know, not feigning, 40:54.960 --> 40:58.660 but saying you have a mutual interest and then go from there. 40:59.260 --> 41:03.160 But recently I was in a grocery store. 41:03.660 --> 41:10.520 Now, I've heard from, you know, from whatever before that the supermarket is a pretty good way to pick up girls. 41:11.000 --> 41:17.160 But I saw this girl that was, like, really cute, and she seemed to be, like, looking at me 41:17.160 --> 41:22.880 and, like, giving me the vibe, but I had no way to kind of go and talk to her, you know? 41:22.880 --> 41:27.300 So it's, like, I'm not going to say, hey, so, uh, are you eating food? 41:29.760 --> 41:30.160 Right. 41:30.780 --> 41:35.080 So why don't you help me out and tell me what I should do in that situation? 41:35.720 --> 41:38.600 Well, what aisle were you in? 41:41.400 --> 41:42.420 I was actually... 41:42.420 --> 41:43.520 I didn't say a word. 41:43.740 --> 41:46.520 I held back a very, very funny joke. 41:46.600 --> 41:47.400 I didn't say a word. 41:47.400 --> 41:57.880 I was in the spices aisle with, like, the pepper and all that other stuff, 41:58.680 --> 42:03.040 and she, I think she was getting salt or something innocuous. 42:03.040 --> 42:11.600 So I guess, like, one of the things you could do is you could act like you're buying salt 42:11.600 --> 42:17.960 and accidentally drop a jar of salt on her. 42:19.720 --> 42:21.080 What is she, a snail? 42:21.260 --> 42:21.460 Okay. 42:22.140 --> 42:23.120 Okay, hold on. 42:23.380 --> 42:23.980 Let's modify. 42:24.340 --> 42:27.340 Let's say I don't approach her in the salt aisle. 42:27.340 --> 42:31.220 Let's say I, you know, passionately stalk her a little bit, 42:31.660 --> 42:35.900 and where would be the ideal place to engage in some conversation? 42:36.900 --> 42:41.940 You know, I think the ideal place would probably be in, like, the produce section 42:41.940 --> 42:47.500 because you can act, like, totally clueless when you're trying to pick out produce, 42:47.900 --> 42:50.260 and you can say, you know, I really need some help. 42:50.800 --> 42:54.280 I'm not sure what kind of mangoes to get. 42:54.280 --> 42:57.280 Should I get the hard mangoes or the soft mangoes? 42:58.400 --> 42:59.500 Go with the soft. 43:01.820 --> 43:02.420 Okay. 43:03.040 --> 43:05.280 Hard mangoes or soft mangoes? 43:06.360 --> 43:08.280 I will write that down. 43:09.060 --> 43:09.660 Verbatim. 43:12.300 --> 43:13.940 But those are onions. 43:14.200 --> 43:14.760 I don't care. 43:15.000 --> 43:15.700 Answer my question. 43:17.760 --> 43:18.360 Okay. 43:18.580 --> 43:20.800 So next time I will definitely try that. 43:20.800 --> 43:26.760 So pretend, like, I don't know what I'm doing, which is true, and then ask them for help. 43:27.100 --> 43:27.220 Okay. 43:27.780 --> 43:34.420 Now, let's kind of get into more of the mechanics of kind of not picking someone up, 43:34.500 --> 43:37.560 but, you know, like, that whole area of, like, the pre-dates, 43:37.680 --> 43:39.660 working up to actually asking them out. 43:39.660 --> 43:46.360 Like, I hear so many things about, like, proper way for, like, eye contact 43:46.360 --> 43:52.860 and, like, how to act, body language and, like, something about touching them. 43:53.460 --> 43:57.400 And, you know, not in, like, a weirdo way, but, like, do you know what I'm saying? 43:57.700 --> 43:58.900 Yeah, I know what you're saying. 43:59.140 --> 43:59.600 All right. 43:59.700 --> 44:03.780 So tell me how I should act. 44:03.780 --> 44:06.780 So I know how you shouldn't act. 44:07.240 --> 44:07.960 Okay. 44:08.300 --> 44:13.280 We have a friend that does this really intense staring game. 44:14.760 --> 44:15.400 Okay. 44:15.980 --> 44:22.380 And I think, like, the intense staring is probably not a good thing to do 44:22.380 --> 44:28.860 because when a guy intensely stares at me, I get really creeped out and... 44:28.860 --> 44:29.260 Damn it. 44:29.500 --> 44:29.980 No staring. 44:30.480 --> 44:31.760 ...and act like I'm on the phone. 44:31.760 --> 44:36.200 Like, intense staring, like, I'm totally undressing you with my eyes staring. 44:37.940 --> 44:40.020 Okay, okay, okay, okay, so... 44:40.020 --> 44:41.140 You know the difference, right? 44:41.500 --> 44:42.360 Instead of, like... 44:42.360 --> 44:43.960 Well, no, I mean, maybe not. 44:44.120 --> 44:47.440 Do you have a guideline for, like, time? 44:47.780 --> 44:52.740 Like, I know that's kind of hard, but if not time, then kind of some guide to help. 44:53.200 --> 44:55.780 You know, if I, you know, it's like I don't know what I'm doing. 44:55.940 --> 44:56.940 Wait a minute. 44:56.960 --> 44:58.180 So I don't know when is too much. 44:58.220 --> 44:58.680 Wait a minute. 44:58.740 --> 45:01.120 I think I know what you're saying here. 45:01.120 --> 45:03.120 There's a difference between when you give them that... 45:03.640 --> 45:07.720 When you look her up and down, I think that's where you're crossing a different line. 45:08.180 --> 45:11.940 Or where you lick your teeth or something weird in the whole process, you know? 45:12.620 --> 45:15.120 Yeah, licking the teeth is not a good idea. 45:15.360 --> 45:15.680 Yeah. 45:15.680 --> 45:18.680 But, you know, I mean, a few seconds... 45:19.400 --> 45:20.680 I mean, even just the... 45:20.680 --> 45:28.140 The flirting that I've experienced, the stuff that's been really successful with me, has 45:28.140 --> 45:34.080 been, like, you know, a split-second look and then, like, when I feel someone's looking 45:34.080 --> 45:38.060 at me, I kind of look at them and they, like, eye contact for a split-second and then look 45:38.060 --> 45:40.800 away and start doing something else, you know? 45:40.800 --> 45:46.140 And it's something that happens around, like, over the course of a few minutes. 45:47.880 --> 45:48.140 Okay. 45:48.140 --> 45:53.420 And then, you know, it's not an intense stare for ten seconds and whoever looks away first, 45:53.420 --> 45:55.860 then you will show them pure domination. 45:57.100 --> 45:58.640 It's like the blinking game. 45:59.120 --> 46:00.420 No, it's not a contest. 46:00.840 --> 46:01.740 That's the first thing. 46:02.720 --> 46:03.500 And then... 46:03.500 --> 46:05.180 So, okay, so how do I know... 46:05.180 --> 46:08.940 Okay, so let's say I'm sitting somewhere or standing somewhere and I'm, like, looking 46:08.940 --> 46:15.340 around, seeing, you know, who is, you know, interested or interesting. 46:15.840 --> 46:17.760 How do I know if someone is interested? 46:17.940 --> 46:23.400 Let's say I'm looking at them and, you know, like, I look at them and they're not... 46:23.420 --> 46:24.160 like, cringing. 46:24.380 --> 46:25.780 There's no grimaces. 46:27.380 --> 46:31.900 But, you know, how do I know whether I should take it to the next step and actually go and 46:31.900 --> 46:33.120 talk to them about something? 46:33.760 --> 46:39.540 I think what I've seen with most girls and just for myself is kind of a, you know, a stare 46:39.540 --> 46:40.880 back and forth type game. 46:41.220 --> 46:46.800 And I try to play it off like I'm talking to my friends and, you know, smiling and then 46:46.800 --> 46:52.320 I'll look over and smile at them, kind of, and then go back and talk to my friends again 46:52.320 --> 46:53.880 and go from there. 46:53.880 --> 46:56.100 And then if a guy... 46:56.100 --> 46:59.660 It's like a club scene, which I hate club scenes, but if it's like a club scene, the 46:59.660 --> 47:06.120 guy will, after five or ten minutes, come up and say, hey, you want to dance or can I 47:06.120 --> 47:06.700 buy you a drink? 47:06.740 --> 47:09.000 And I'll say, sorry, I'm married. 47:09.000 --> 47:12.640 But hopefully, you know... 47:12.640 --> 47:15.800 Well, I can probably try that at the Apple store. 47:16.360 --> 47:20.380 I'll have to play something on the, on the test iPod though. 47:20.820 --> 47:24.080 But okay, definitely we'll try that. 47:24.240 --> 47:24.540 Okay. 47:24.920 --> 47:27.320 So what about the other aspects? 47:27.420 --> 47:29.700 Like, let's say I'm actually talking to them now. 47:29.820 --> 47:37.000 You know, like, what, what are we talking about besides salt and, and hard or soft mangoes? 47:37.000 --> 47:39.380 And like, how, how do I act? 47:39.440 --> 47:45.400 Because I mean, like, let's, you know, let's, let's say for the sake of argument that I'm 47:45.400 --> 47:48.360 not naturally comfortable talking to women. 47:48.560 --> 47:54.720 And I don't, you know, you know, as far of a stretch as that may be, let's, let's, for 47:54.720 --> 47:57.000 the sake of this segment, imagine that we're true. 47:57.460 --> 47:58.140 All right. 47:58.700 --> 47:59.940 Which is not true. 48:00.280 --> 48:02.340 Verbal is like the woman master. 48:03.080 --> 48:03.520 All right. 48:03.560 --> 48:04.720 No, no, no, no, no, no. 48:04.760 --> 48:05.540 That's not true. 48:05.820 --> 48:06.260 Okay. 48:06.260 --> 48:06.760 All right. 48:06.760 --> 48:07.660 You're the man master. 48:07.800 --> 48:08.240 What do you want? 48:08.780 --> 48:09.200 All right. 48:09.320 --> 48:14.340 So I think, um, one of the things you have to do is just pretend like you're talking to 48:14.340 --> 48:19.580 one of your friends, because if you are so focused that this is a really hot girl, then 48:19.580 --> 48:23.320 you're going to really stumble over your words and be really nervous. 48:23.320 --> 48:27.420 And the, the natural flow of conversation is just not going to work. 48:27.500 --> 48:32.000 There's going to be pauses and stuff because you're thinking so hard because she's so immensely 48:32.000 --> 48:32.440 hot. 48:32.440 --> 48:37.920 But, so I think, you know, just keeping with the, she's a friend, I don't have to worry 48:37.920 --> 48:43.040 about things, anything, there's nothing riding on this so that the flow of conversation is 48:43.040 --> 48:43.680 more natural. 48:44.440 --> 48:46.820 That would definitely be a good point. 48:47.500 --> 48:51.840 Laughing at her jokes, if she makes any, is a good thing. 48:51.840 --> 48:52.160 Okay. 48:53.020 --> 48:53.980 Well, if they're not funny. 48:53.980 --> 48:54.780 Yeah. 48:55.180 --> 49:00.060 Well, if it's not funny, then you use your cool acting skills and you laugh anyway. 49:01.460 --> 49:02.160 All right. 49:02.540 --> 49:07.400 Checking acting skills and ugly friends. 49:07.940 --> 49:08.200 Okay. 49:09.040 --> 49:10.800 Um, okay. 49:11.020 --> 49:16.560 So if anyone wants to practice with me, I guess you can send me an email. 49:17.300 --> 49:18.760 Um, that will work. 49:20.380 --> 49:20.940 Okay. 49:20.940 --> 49:22.240 So what's with this touching? 49:22.380 --> 49:23.380 There's a word for it. 49:23.460 --> 49:26.900 It's like, you know, some, some, something. 49:27.240 --> 49:27.540 Yeah. 49:27.560 --> 49:28.320 I can't remember. 49:28.780 --> 49:31.980 It's like, I've heard it called like flirting touching. 49:32.320 --> 49:37.440 It's like very delicate touches and it's okay. 49:37.680 --> 49:40.060 Let me, tell me the secret of that. 49:40.260 --> 49:45.020 Cause I don't know what's going on with that touching thing. 49:45.020 --> 49:52.680 I think, on a very special episode of Binary Revolution Radio, we distinguish between good 49:52.680 --> 49:53.640 touch and bad touch. 49:55.240 --> 49:56.340 Hey, I'm taking notes. 49:56.440 --> 49:57.360 This is important stuff. 49:57.440 --> 49:58.260 What's a woman talking? 49:59.460 --> 50:03.640 So I think one of the things is, um, it really has to be timed right. 50:03.640 --> 50:09.900 And one of the things that I do when I'm talking is I do tend to touch people when I talk and 50:09.900 --> 50:16.820 I try to time it with like, you know, a compliment and my touching is probably going to be different 50:16.820 --> 50:21.760 than a flirting touch, but you can add on to the whole touching thing. 50:21.760 --> 50:27.900 So say we're talking and we're discussing something and you say, you know, you wrote this awesome program and I say, 50:28.040 --> 50:28.900 oh, that's fantastic. 50:29.060 --> 50:30.200 And I put my hand on you. 50:30.760 --> 50:32.020 Can you tell me more about it? 50:32.080 --> 50:39.940 Now, if I was flirting with you, I would like continue my hand to like go down the arm a little and then release. 50:40.100 --> 50:41.760 So it's not just a solid touch. 50:41.800 --> 50:43.860 It's a lingering touch. 50:44.240 --> 50:45.200 Do you understand what I'm saying? 50:45.920 --> 50:47.980 That is so hot. 50:48.600 --> 50:49.300 Oh, sorry. 50:49.300 --> 50:51.380 Um, no. 50:51.760 --> 50:54.140 So are you saying that guys should do that also? 50:54.740 --> 51:01.800 Yeah, I think that it really, there's a fine line of when to touch and when not to touch. 51:01.840 --> 51:05.980 And I think if the girl is giggling and laughing at your jokes and whatnot, 51:06.120 --> 51:13.340 and you've had more of a conversation like this is, you've done the pickup and you're like on your first date type thing. 51:14.140 --> 51:14.620 Okay. 51:14.620 --> 51:17.880 I think you are allowed to linger touch. 51:17.880 --> 51:26.920 But if you're in the Apple store, just picking up on her, talking about Final Cut Pro, I don't think the linger touch would be as good. 51:26.920 --> 51:28.160 Okay. 51:28.880 --> 51:30.460 First date, linger touch. 51:30.660 --> 51:31.180 Got it. 51:32.300 --> 51:35.600 Are there any other types of touching I should be aware of? 51:36.080 --> 51:36.560 Well, I mean... 51:36.560 --> 51:37.300 Besides the obvious. 51:39.500 --> 51:43.040 There's the whole like, should you kiss on the first date? 51:43.480 --> 51:46.980 Should you go to home, have a home run on the first date? 51:47.080 --> 51:49.780 I really think it depends on the woman. 51:49.780 --> 51:52.500 You mean have sex, right? 51:53.160 --> 51:53.500 Yes. 51:53.920 --> 51:54.360 Okay. 51:54.800 --> 51:55.180 Gotcha. 51:55.380 --> 51:55.680 Go ahead. 51:56.020 --> 51:56.820 Equal sex. 51:57.380 --> 51:57.720 Okay. 51:58.140 --> 52:03.580 I think it really depends on the woman and how she responds to the linger touch. 52:04.340 --> 52:09.520 If she like cringes when you touch her, you're probably not going to make it to home base on the first date. 52:09.520 --> 52:11.440 All right. 52:11.540 --> 52:13.620 This sports analogy thing has got to go. 52:13.980 --> 52:14.340 Okay. 52:14.740 --> 52:16.020 Home plate, not home base. 52:16.240 --> 52:16.360 Okay. 52:16.460 --> 52:16.640 Okay. 52:16.640 --> 52:20.120 If your program compiles, that's sex. 52:21.600 --> 52:22.700 Module completed. 52:23.380 --> 52:23.860 Okay. 52:23.860 --> 52:31.640 Now, how do you know if someone you asked on a date knows... 52:31.640 --> 52:39.940 I mean, like, how do you know if they're up for, like, not a one-night stand, but, like, for having sexual relations on the first date? 52:40.400 --> 52:45.380 Or if, you know, it's just kind of a goodnight kiss type of situation? 52:45.940 --> 52:47.440 Just from the touching? 52:48.340 --> 52:48.640 I... 52:48.640 --> 52:51.020 It could be just... 52:51.020 --> 52:53.540 I send a lot of messages out with my touching. 52:54.280 --> 52:54.660 Okay. 52:54.960 --> 53:02.000 But, you know, I'm married, so I'm allowed to do that with my husband. 53:02.540 --> 53:03.580 Oh, with your husband. 53:03.720 --> 53:03.920 Okay. 53:04.040 --> 53:04.220 With my husband. 53:04.220 --> 53:04.440 Gotcha. 53:05.160 --> 53:09.740 But I think it really depends, like, how she kisses. 53:09.740 --> 53:14.160 Because if it's, like, hey, I'm going to kiss you on the cheek, then you're probably not going to be having sex. 53:14.480 --> 53:16.200 No program compiling there. 53:16.200 --> 53:17.720 Okay, okay, okay. 53:18.160 --> 53:18.600 What? 53:18.740 --> 53:19.100 Okay, okay. 53:19.360 --> 53:27.940 How about if after the date or whatever the planned event, I say, okay, where are we going next? 53:29.160 --> 53:36.200 And then she can either say your place, which is pretty obvious what's going to happen, or my place, right? 53:36.660 --> 53:36.860 Yeah. 53:36.860 --> 53:43.480 Now, when she says my place, does that mean my place, or dot, dot, dot, or just my place, period? 53:45.000 --> 53:53.740 It really depends on how she says my place, and if it's followed by, like, she's grabbing her crotch, or it's, you know, my place. 53:54.860 --> 53:55.480 I mean... 53:55.480 --> 53:58.860 My place and then vomit, or... 53:58.860 --> 54:08.740 I think for me, if I'm inviting someone, if I'm specifically inviting someone to my place, I want to do something. 54:08.740 --> 54:19.820 I don't know if it's sexual, but, like, going all the way, but I want to make out with some depth, I guess. 54:20.820 --> 54:28.180 Because, I mean, if you're just going to drop her off, and, you know, you'll kind of know, like, at the door. 54:28.180 --> 54:36.000 If she's like, yeah, let's go to my house, and then she's like, all right, see you later, and gives you a kiss on the cheek, then you know that that's what's going to happen. 54:37.860 --> 54:38.220 Yeah. 54:38.760 --> 54:44.900 So, it's kind of, you kind of, like, got to read what she's saying, and how she's saying it, if she's touching you. 54:45.520 --> 54:48.000 There's all these factors that come into play. 54:48.100 --> 54:50.180 I mean, there's no specific... 54:50.180 --> 54:51.140 Algorithm? 54:51.500 --> 54:51.860 Yes. 54:52.240 --> 54:53.960 There's no specific algorithm. 54:55.020 --> 54:56.240 That sounds hard. 54:56.240 --> 55:00.860 I think we've said on the show before that female of the species is unhackable. 55:00.960 --> 55:03.760 The only thing in the world that's unhackable. 55:04.980 --> 55:06.140 I don't know. 55:06.900 --> 55:08.580 My husband's going to be down pat. 55:10.580 --> 55:11.400 Okay, okay. 55:12.020 --> 55:15.040 Okay, I've, on this subject, I have one last question. 55:15.440 --> 55:24.740 Because I've been debating about this, just people, and if someone asks you to come up for a nightcap, does that mean they want to have sex with you? 55:24.740 --> 55:32.560 Because I'm saying yes, and some girls argue that's a no, and I disagree with them. 55:33.200 --> 55:34.660 I would have to say it depends on the girl. 55:34.760 --> 55:39.000 For me, if I'm saying, hey, let's go out for a nightcap, it's a booty call. 55:39.780 --> 55:40.420 All right. 55:40.420 --> 55:47.600 But, you know, somebody else might be saying, let's go out for a nightcap because I need you to buy me alcohol because I'm depressed. 55:50.040 --> 55:51.540 I'm sorry, was there a difference there? 55:53.960 --> 55:54.400 Okay. 55:55.240 --> 55:55.640 Okay. 55:56.680 --> 55:59.500 All right, let's change the subject for a little bit. 55:59.500 --> 56:05.240 The final thing I want to cover tonight is about online dating. 56:05.520 --> 56:08.360 Now, as you know, there are all these sites coming up. 56:09.060 --> 56:16.540 I mean, they're already up, like MySpace, OkCupid, and, you know, whatever else is available, Match.com, blah, blah, blah. 56:16.540 --> 56:23.380 Like, is that a good place to meet people and, like, to find them? 56:23.760 --> 56:26.440 Because to me that seems a lot easier, you know? 56:26.560 --> 56:32.920 They're all there with pictures and profiles, and you can just browse through them while you're, like, watching TV. 56:33.280 --> 56:34.760 Does that actually work? 56:35.240 --> 56:37.680 You're all, no, no, no, no, no. 56:37.680 --> 56:38.040 No? 56:38.240 --> 56:38.540 No. 56:38.540 --> 56:43.140 No, no, I think for certain people it definitely does work. 56:43.140 --> 56:54.780 I think that if I were to get into the dating scene again because my husband died some horrible death, that I would definitely not do the club scene. 56:55.220 --> 56:58.860 I would not go out and try to find people at coffee shops. 56:59.000 --> 57:05.060 I would do the Match.com thing because I don't have time to sit there and do small talk. 57:05.220 --> 57:08.440 I don't have time, you know, it's like I'm too old. 57:08.800 --> 57:09.780 To play games. 57:10.460 --> 57:12.500 Let's just get it over and done with, all right? 57:12.600 --> 57:19.740 This person meets all my requirements intellectually, socially, you know, romantically. 57:20.200 --> 57:21.980 All right, let's send them an email and go from there. 57:22.080 --> 57:22.780 Wait, wait, wait, wait. 57:22.780 --> 57:23.640 It's really non-pressure. 57:23.820 --> 57:24.240 Wait a minute. 57:24.340 --> 57:25.680 I've got to step in here for a second. 57:25.760 --> 57:26.160 Hold on. 57:27.040 --> 57:33.900 Doesn't that take all the beauty and the romance out of the whole process when you're basically going down a checklist? 57:33.900 --> 57:36.700 Okay, she looks like this and she's into this. 57:36.700 --> 57:40.280 Oh, but she's not a non-smoker, but she likes to do – come on. 57:40.320 --> 57:42.760 Doesn't that take away the magic or something? 57:43.660 --> 57:44.200 You know what? 57:44.360 --> 57:47.020 I think the magic really doesn't always happen. 57:47.360 --> 57:50.600 All that stuff that happens in movies doesn't happen. 57:50.760 --> 57:51.540 There's no fireworks? 57:51.540 --> 57:54.420 There's still fireworks. 57:54.840 --> 57:59.140 If you meet a person on Match.com, you meet in person, there's still going to be fireworks. 57:59.760 --> 58:03.260 You just overpass all that first junk. 58:03.540 --> 58:08.920 I mean, I have to say one of the best things about being married is I don't have to go through all that crap of dating. 58:08.920 --> 58:14.620 It's so hard to date sometimes. 58:16.680 --> 58:18.380 Okay, so you would recommend people going to – 58:18.380 --> 58:19.320 I would recommend it. 58:19.620 --> 58:23.060 But it's definitely for a different type of person. 58:23.280 --> 58:27.940 You know, some people want to do the whole mystery firework thing. 58:28.100 --> 58:28.680 And you know what? 58:28.720 --> 58:29.320 That's cool. 58:29.440 --> 58:31.720 And I know there's still a lot of people out there who want to do that. 58:31.720 --> 58:34.580 But some people just don't have time to do that. 58:34.720 --> 58:40.640 They're busy working and doing volunteer stuff and just doing a lot of stuff. 58:40.840 --> 58:46.680 And this is a great alternative for them to meet people and not even – 58:46.680 --> 58:46.940 Okay. 58:47.240 --> 58:48.020 You know, just people that – 58:48.020 --> 58:49.220 One last thing. 58:49.340 --> 58:49.720 All right. 58:50.300 --> 58:56.860 Now, the art of the first message, how – like, you find someone and you message them. 58:56.860 --> 59:00.880 Like, I know what all the bad messages are, you know? 59:00.880 --> 59:01.620 All right, you tell me. 59:01.620 --> 59:04.440 Like, do you want to do it, et cetera, et cetera? 59:05.160 --> 59:11.200 But how do you, you know, send them a message that is going to lead to something? 59:12.480 --> 59:21.320 I think being, like, as a woman, I would want, if I was on one of these sites, 59:21.720 --> 59:28.500 the guy to actually read through my profile and take some time and effort to, like, 59:28.600 --> 59:30.180 see the type of things that I like. 59:30.880 --> 59:36.260 So, if I have on there, you know, I really dig volunteer work or nonprofit work, 59:36.360 --> 59:41.200 then I would hope that he would take the time and say, you know, 59:41.260 --> 59:43.520 I see here that you do a nonprofit work. 59:43.580 --> 59:44.580 That's really great. 59:44.760 --> 59:47.400 You know, we need more people like you or something of the sort. 59:48.180 --> 59:49.740 Tell me about your nonprofit work. 59:49.740 --> 59:52.320 You know, you looked very interesting in your profile. 59:53.180 --> 59:57.160 I want to know more about you, X, Y, and Z, that kind of stuff. 59:57.220 --> 01:00:00.960 Not – you have a nice rack, you know? 01:00:02.120 --> 01:00:04.660 That's, like, three or four emails down the line. 01:00:04.660 --> 01:00:13.720 Okay, read, email, and chain – okay, got it, got it. 01:00:14.080 --> 01:00:16.460 Now, verbally, are you going to keep us up to date on the show? 01:00:16.580 --> 01:00:17.240 Thank you for coming on again. 01:00:17.240 --> 01:00:19.040 Well, we need to stop here, though. 01:00:19.080 --> 01:00:23.780 If anybody has any questions or anything like that that they want to send to me, 01:00:24.840 --> 01:00:28.560 they can do it by sending it to noelani at spy.net. 01:00:29.520 --> 01:00:34.820 And that is N-O-E-L-A-N-I at spy.net. 01:00:36.160 --> 01:00:36.820 All right. 01:00:36.880 --> 01:00:38.020 Well, thanks for coming on. 01:00:38.080 --> 01:00:39.440 I'm sure we'll have you on again. 01:00:40.400 --> 01:00:42.780 As always, it is lovely to have you. 01:00:43.220 --> 01:00:43.680 Thank you. 01:00:43.920 --> 01:00:45.700 Thank you very much for being on the show. 01:00:46.020 --> 01:00:47.000 Thank you for having me. 01:00:47.620 --> 01:00:48.880 And I will talk to you guys soon. 01:00:49.680 --> 01:00:50.080 Okay. 01:00:50.280 --> 01:00:50.700 Bye-bye. 01:00:50.920 --> 01:00:51.300 Bye. 01:00:51.820 --> 01:00:52.420 All right. 01:00:52.640 --> 01:00:55.340 And let's zip very quickly. 01:00:56.980 --> 01:00:57.740 Verbal, you there? 01:00:58.440 --> 01:00:58.800 Yes. 01:00:58.860 --> 01:00:59.120 Okay. 01:00:59.200 --> 01:01:03.000 Let's zip very quickly into some technical topics on this episode of the show, 01:01:03.300 --> 01:01:06.400 especially since you got hate mail about not having technical stuff. 01:01:07.060 --> 01:01:07.700 Hey, whatever. 01:01:07.920 --> 01:01:08.680 Fuck that guy. 01:01:08.680 --> 01:01:12.940 You had a topic that you did want to talk about on the show tonight in addition to that, correct? 01:01:13.780 --> 01:01:14.440 I do. 01:01:14.680 --> 01:01:20.420 Well, so I mean, okay, this has always been a thing of mine, but I have a question. 01:01:20.980 --> 01:01:29.620 And I'm wondering, you know, I'm, so recently I've been emailing a lot with, say, you and the other people in the bin rev community. 01:01:30.020 --> 01:01:31.880 And no one uses encryption. 01:01:31.880 --> 01:01:41.400 Like, I mean, I know it's not, like, super top secret stuff, but do you use encryption for any of the emails you send from a day-to-day basis? 01:01:41.400 --> 01:01:45.400 Well, yes and no. 01:01:45.400 --> 01:01:49.760 I guess no, if you say the emails I send on a day-to-day basis, no. 01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:53.760 But it depends on what the content of the email is. 01:01:53.760 --> 01:02:06.100 I have a PGP key, but I don't bother really sharing it and putting it out there a lot and using it unless there's something I really, really, really feel like I need to encrypt because I don't want it to be seen by prying eyes. 01:02:06.100 --> 01:02:13.800 And quite frankly, that's very rare that I have something like that because if I do, I have other ways of communicating that. 01:02:13.860 --> 01:02:19.160 Quite frankly, I'm still a fan of the good old-fashioned phone call or meet face-to-face with somebody. 01:02:19.260 --> 01:02:22.960 That way there is no interception of anything, at least face-to-face. 01:02:22.960 --> 01:02:24.400 You can't intercept the phone call. 01:02:24.420 --> 01:02:27.220 Well, I corrected myself, but face-to-face anyway. 01:02:27.380 --> 01:02:33.520 It's very difficult to, unless you're over somewhere with a boom microphone zooming in on a face-to-face meeting of some kind. 01:02:33.520 --> 01:02:37.220 And you know what? Usually, even then, it's not that big a deal. 01:02:38.180 --> 01:02:46.260 Or if I've got to send a password or something like that, I'll usually make it temporary, and I'll tell the other person, you change it immediately. 01:02:46.800 --> 01:02:48.760 I mean, okay, so this is my thing. 01:02:48.860 --> 01:03:02.160 Well, and I'm sorry. One other thing, though, Verbal, to keep in mind, too, is that whenever possible, I'm connected on my end through a VPN or I log in through an SSH connection or something like that. 01:03:02.160 --> 01:03:06.320 So that from my end, all of my traffic is encrypted. 01:03:06.320 --> 01:03:11.120 So if you come from an unprotected location, that's your problem. 01:03:12.960 --> 01:03:13.760 Okay, okay. 01:03:13.980 --> 01:03:14.240 Right? 01:03:14.320 --> 01:03:15.660 See, my thing is this. 01:03:17.160 --> 01:03:25.560 I'm not saying you can do something questionable, but if at some point you get subpoenaed for your key and you don't give it, you know, 01:03:25.560 --> 01:03:35.880 and like 99% of your email is unencrypted and, you know, you don't give your key for that last remaining percent of your email, that's going to look bad on you, you know? 01:03:36.100 --> 01:03:36.780 Well, that's a good point. 01:03:36.780 --> 01:03:47.640 The thing is I am always kind of of the opinion that you should always practice security regardless, you know, of what it is that you're doing just to kind of get in the habit. 01:03:48.280 --> 01:03:58.780 And also, you know, like at DEF CON, there was a talk on the plausible deniability toolkit that people were giving. 01:03:58.780 --> 01:04:11.540 And, you know, they're saying, like, okay, if you have a process for doing something, say, wiping your hard drive, don't fucking do it when the guys with shotguns are banging on your door, you know? 01:04:11.620 --> 01:04:14.520 Then afterwards, you just look guilty, you know? 01:04:14.660 --> 01:04:23.180 Like, if you want to set that up, do it every single week so then you can say, well, I wipe my hard drive every single week, so, I mean, it's nothing new. 01:04:23.180 --> 01:04:27.680 So, then, like, they can't do anything to you, and it's the same thing with encryption. 01:04:28.440 --> 01:04:39.160 And, you know, a lot of people have this mentality that's like, well, I'm not doing anything important, so, you know, I don't need to encrypt my emails or I don't need to, you know, secure my host. 01:04:39.300 --> 01:04:44.160 I'll just run Windows 2000 with no patches or whatever, you know? 01:04:44.160 --> 01:05:01.720 Well, and, you know, maybe you don't care if your box gets taken over, but, you know, your box is probably in some botnet or, like, just being taken over by someone to download porn or, like, to host whatever the fuck, right? 01:05:02.260 --> 01:05:03.780 Well, I can always use more porn. 01:05:03.780 --> 01:05:18.560 Well, it's, I mean, hey, it could be, it could be midget porn or, like, pyro-bestiality, necro-bestiality, like, flaming dead cats and stuff. 01:05:18.600 --> 01:05:19.540 You don't want to see that shit. 01:05:19.720 --> 01:05:21.400 That is so hot. 01:05:22.520 --> 01:05:22.920 Literally. 01:05:22.920 --> 01:05:34.640 Well, maybe for you, but I'm saying I don't want to see that shit, and I'm just saying you should always practice security by default because, I mean, I, I mean, that's just a rant. 01:05:34.840 --> 01:05:36.920 No, you're, you're, you're very, you're absolutely right. 01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:38.120 I mean, you have a very good point. 01:05:40.200 --> 01:05:47.740 It's like, for, it's not only, and not only encryption, like, you know, the whole plausible deniability thing is exactly what you described. 01:05:47.960 --> 01:05:50.520 Like, for example, I do wipe my hard drive every week. 01:05:50.520 --> 01:05:52.360 It's scheduled to run every Sunday night. 01:05:52.480 --> 01:05:58.580 I have, you know, all that we've talked about in the show before that gets wiped out, all my free space, and, you know, some privacy aspects. 01:05:58.680 --> 01:06:00.340 So I do have that aspect in place. 01:06:00.740 --> 01:06:03.700 I could probably be a little bit better on my email about that. 01:06:03.740 --> 01:06:05.260 I should probably do that on everything. 01:06:05.740 --> 01:06:16.420 But I think I've also, we've talked on the show about, we've had a couple shows about encryption the entire show, and one of the things that I mentioned, and I think keeps a lot of people away from it, and maybe you've got some suggestions here, 01:06:16.420 --> 01:06:22.440 is the fact that it's still not easy for your everyday person to use. 01:06:22.440 --> 01:06:38.880 I mean, if I could do it in such a way where inside of Thunderbird, or inside of even Outlook, or whatever your email client of choice is, if there was a simple checkbox that said, encrypt this with my key, 01:06:39.380 --> 01:06:46.780 and I just have never found a good, easy-to-use plugin that makes it near invisible to use, I just haven't found it yet. 01:06:46.780 --> 01:06:49.320 I'm sure there probably is one, I just haven't found it. 01:06:49.360 --> 01:06:50.900 I would love somebody to tell me that. 01:06:52.200 --> 01:06:53.820 Well, okay, so two things, right? 01:06:54.560 --> 01:06:56.100 First of all, two things. 01:06:56.200 --> 01:07:00.740 First of all, I'm not talking about, you know, regular people. 01:07:00.900 --> 01:07:05.460 I'm talking about people listening to this show, and you should know how to use it. 01:07:05.900 --> 01:07:11.440 And the second thing is, don't be lazy, because if you're lazy, you're just going to get fucked in the ass later. 01:07:11.720 --> 01:07:12.640 And no one wants that. 01:07:12.640 --> 01:07:19.200 I mean, just suck it up and do it, make it part of your routine, then you won't think it's hard. 01:07:20.100 --> 01:07:21.600 I think that's easier said than done. 01:07:21.720 --> 01:07:22.360 I haven't seen... 01:07:22.360 --> 01:07:22.920 It is! 01:07:23.200 --> 01:07:25.040 I mean, it's not supposed to be easy. 01:07:25.180 --> 01:07:28.340 Like, you have to protect your own privacy, you know? 01:07:28.720 --> 01:07:31.820 If it was easy, it would just be the way. 01:07:32.120 --> 01:07:33.220 Well, you haven't sent encrypted... 01:07:33.220 --> 01:07:33.960 And then everyone would do it. 01:07:34.300 --> 01:07:37.060 You haven't sent those encrypted emails to me either, by the way. 01:07:37.840 --> 01:07:38.160 What? 01:07:38.380 --> 01:07:39.900 That's because I don't have any keys. 01:07:41.480 --> 01:07:42.280 Secondly... 01:07:42.280 --> 01:07:43.460 Secondly, okay. 01:07:44.460 --> 01:07:45.820 Secondly, what about... 01:07:45.820 --> 01:07:46.260 What about... 01:07:46.260 --> 01:07:47.120 No, I'm... 01:07:47.120 --> 01:07:48.100 A serious question. 01:07:48.240 --> 01:07:49.240 I mean, what if... 01:07:49.240 --> 01:07:53.300 I mean, the time that it takes to do that, you have to make a decision. 01:07:53.440 --> 01:07:54.800 Something else is going to get sacrificed. 01:07:55.180 --> 01:07:57.740 And, you know, I mean, it's easy to say that. 01:07:57.820 --> 01:07:58.760 And I understand what you're saying. 01:07:58.760 --> 01:08:00.980 Your point is very well taken, don't get me wrong. 01:08:01.360 --> 01:08:05.080 But if we had to encrypt every email that you and I have sent in the past week, for example, 01:08:05.640 --> 01:08:07.700 the show wouldn't have gotten done tonight, quite frankly. 01:08:07.700 --> 01:08:09.420 It simply would not have gotten done. 01:08:09.420 --> 01:08:12.240 That's just a fact. 01:08:12.500 --> 01:08:13.040 I just... 01:08:13.040 --> 01:08:13.660 I know that. 01:08:14.080 --> 01:08:15.180 So there comes a point... 01:08:15.180 --> 01:08:17.280 Frankly, I'm only speaking of myself personally. 01:08:17.800 --> 01:08:22.120 Other people, if they want to make their own excuses, I'm only making my own bullshit excuse. 01:08:22.520 --> 01:08:22.640 But... 01:08:22.640 --> 01:08:25.040 Admittedly. 01:08:25.460 --> 01:08:26.060 Admittedly so. 01:08:26.160 --> 01:08:26.780 But you know what? 01:08:27.200 --> 01:08:28.080 That's what I'm saying. 01:08:28.080 --> 01:08:29.080 Even... 01:08:29.080 --> 01:08:34.160 You're saying to the listeners of this show, they should be better than just your normal everyday person. 01:08:34.280 --> 01:08:35.480 And you're not talking about them. 01:08:35.780 --> 01:08:36.400 But I'm sorry. 01:08:36.500 --> 01:08:43.720 I really think that if you can cater something to the everyday person, then you're going to get all of us using it as well. 01:08:43.720 --> 01:08:52.720 Right now, you're only going to get those of us who are so concerned about every little thing that we send that I just don't really think it's... 01:08:52.720 --> 01:08:53.980 I'm just trying to explain. 01:08:54.060 --> 01:08:56.560 I think that's why a lot of people don't do it. 01:08:56.640 --> 01:09:03.500 Whether I'm way off base, I guess our listeners should email us to radio at binrev.com and let us know what their reasons are for not using it. 01:09:03.540 --> 01:09:04.440 But that's the way I feel. 01:09:04.500 --> 01:09:05.920 I don't know if that's just me or what. 01:09:05.920 --> 01:09:08.420 Okay, you know what I'm going to do? 01:09:08.600 --> 01:09:08.860 Okay. 01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:17.280 Everyone who is listening right now, email me at verbal at binrev.com and tell me what male client you're using. 01:09:17.800 --> 01:09:28.660 And I will make a list of every single male client and how to use PGP or GPG or whatever and get that integrated for you. 01:09:28.700 --> 01:09:30.120 Because there is software out there. 01:09:30.120 --> 01:09:34.380 You may not know what it is or you may not think it's the easiest thing to use. 01:09:34.380 --> 01:09:42.340 But tell me what you're using and I will put up a page somewhere that will explain to you how to integrate encryption with your email client. 01:09:43.620 --> 01:09:44.960 Verbal, that makes me want to cry. 01:09:45.060 --> 01:09:45.820 That's so beautiful. 01:09:46.920 --> 01:09:47.500 That's right. 01:09:47.840 --> 01:09:48.760 I'm getting reclipped. 01:09:49.760 --> 01:09:51.660 Get some tissues for later. 01:09:51.800 --> 01:09:52.740 Oh, okay. 01:09:52.860 --> 01:09:53.240 I'm better. 01:09:53.780 --> 01:09:54.240 I'm better. 01:09:54.360 --> 01:09:56.700 I think that's a really cool thing you're volunteering to do right there. 01:09:56.740 --> 01:09:57.220 I really do. 01:09:58.260 --> 01:09:58.960 No problem. 01:09:59.020 --> 01:10:00.520 I better get some effing emails. 01:10:00.520 --> 01:10:05.160 Listen, let's go back to the little conversation. 01:10:05.440 --> 01:10:14.920 I mean, you and I met across a crowded room at DEF CON and our eyes locked and we stared at each other for a good long time until I ran and jumped into your arms. 01:10:15.300 --> 01:10:17.420 So that whole staring thing works fine. 01:10:19.680 --> 01:10:20.980 Uh, yes. 01:10:21.240 --> 01:10:21.480 Okay. 01:10:21.620 --> 01:10:22.660 Just thought I'd throw that in there. 01:10:22.660 --> 01:10:26.300 Uh, okay. 01:10:27.420 --> 01:10:29.360 I just thought I'd derail the topic like this. 01:10:29.400 --> 01:10:34.820 So you've got to be able to take these kind of things that are thrown at you and still go on with the talk. 01:10:35.760 --> 01:10:36.660 Yeah, I'm fine. 01:10:36.860 --> 01:10:37.200 Thanks. 01:10:37.720 --> 01:10:38.300 You're traumatized. 01:10:38.300 --> 01:10:40.020 The events might be a little skewed. 01:10:40.220 --> 01:10:40.900 You're traumatized. 01:10:40.900 --> 01:10:42.940 I'll post what really happened in the show notes. 01:10:45.080 --> 01:10:45.520 Okay. 01:10:46.300 --> 01:10:48.300 So, Labor Day weekend. 01:10:48.920 --> 01:10:49.220 Yeah? 01:10:49.980 --> 01:10:50.620 Just ended. 01:10:50.620 --> 01:10:52.720 What did you do with your extra day of fun? 01:10:53.240 --> 01:10:54.040 I'm recording this. 01:10:54.040 --> 01:10:54.260 Do you travel? 01:10:54.540 --> 01:10:56.060 I'm recording this fucking show. 01:10:56.940 --> 01:10:58.080 Well, fuck you two. 01:10:58.880 --> 01:10:59.940 I had family. 01:11:00.020 --> 01:11:00.980 I had family in town. 01:11:00.980 --> 01:11:03.900 I always forget to do when I'm traveling because I don't do it too often. 01:11:04.720 --> 01:11:09.000 But whenever you go to the airport, you have to, like, pay some fee. 01:11:09.500 --> 01:11:11.420 And I'm doing hand quotes, but you can't see it. 01:11:11.880 --> 01:11:14.500 You have to pay some fee to use the internet. 01:11:15.340 --> 01:11:17.480 And personally, I think that's pretty bullshit. 01:11:18.200 --> 01:11:21.880 But I just wanted to remind everyone, there usually is a way around that. 01:11:21.880 --> 01:11:29.240 Now, the way it works is when you go to the airport thing, to make it easy, they let you 01:11:29.240 --> 01:11:34.660 log in to some web thing, and you can pay them via the web thing. 01:11:35.260 --> 01:11:39.200 And, you know, they give you an access code and blah, blah, blah, blah, and you get on 01:11:39.200 --> 01:11:39.680 the internet. 01:11:40.280 --> 01:11:45.480 Now, the thing is, in order to have that initial page work, your computer has to be able to 01:11:45.480 --> 01:11:45.940 find it. 01:11:45.940 --> 01:11:54.060 So, long story short, most of the time, when you have that, what they need to do is let 01:11:54.060 --> 01:11:56.260 DNS through the outside world. 01:11:56.600 --> 01:11:59.860 Like, they can block everything else, but they usually let DNS through. 01:12:00.380 --> 01:12:07.000 And if you went to Bruce Potter's presentation about two or three years ago at DEF CON, he 01:12:07.000 --> 01:12:13.260 talks about tunneling IP over DNS, and that is something you should definitely do. 01:12:13.260 --> 01:12:20.480 So, you know, just have that set up so whenever you go traveling, you'll have that with you. 01:12:21.100 --> 01:12:27.140 Now, but the one thing is, if you do that, all of your IP packets are going to be encapsulated 01:12:27.140 --> 01:12:31.740 in DNS packets, so no one's going to know what the fuck you're talking about. 01:12:31.860 --> 01:12:37.920 So, what you need is somewhere out in the world, you need to be running a proxy server for all 01:12:37.920 --> 01:12:45.420 of your traffic. So, what you need is, your client needs to speak IP over DNS, and you need to have 01:12:45.420 --> 01:12:52.540 a proxy server, probably your house or whatever, that speaks IP over DNS, and have your computer 01:12:52.540 --> 01:12:55.420 that you're running the proxy on do all the work for you. 01:12:56.100 --> 01:13:03.040 Okay? So, have that set up, and next time you're in the airport, you won't be stuck without internet. 01:13:03.040 --> 01:13:11.440 Now, the thing is, I wanted to segue into this concept of tunneling. Now, when he talks about, 01:13:11.560 --> 01:13:21.100 you know, putting an IP packet inside DNS packet, you know, that is tunneling, and you hear tunneling, 01:13:21.280 --> 01:13:27.860 you know, associated a lot with encryption and all this stuff, mostly VPN, and that is not, 01:13:27.860 --> 01:13:32.700 you know, that is not just what tunneling is for. Tunneling is used for everything. So, 01:13:32.860 --> 01:13:37.900 to give you a better idea of what actually happens, you know, when they do the quote-unquote 01:13:37.900 --> 01:13:42.900 tunneling, I'll talk about how the OS actually deals with packets that it gets in. Okay? 01:13:43.400 --> 01:13:50.520 So, you have a network stack, right? And you may not, you know, don't worry if you don't know 01:13:50.520 --> 01:13:56.240 what the fuck I'm talking about, but you have a network stack, and from the application or whatever 01:13:56.240 --> 01:14:03.160 you're sending the packet, you're sending data, and you have to tell it where to go, right? So, 01:14:03.280 --> 01:14:09.640 there are all these, like, acronyms for, like, TCP and UDP and IP and IPsec and all this junk. 01:14:09.980 --> 01:14:17.520 So, I'm going to try to clear up some of that stuff. Now, what happens is a packet, it's logically 01:14:17.520 --> 01:14:25.100 divided into layers, and if you've heard, like, of the OSI layer, like the seven layer, 01:14:25.700 --> 01:14:31.700 that is what it is referring to. Now, the seven layers is just kind of like a reference implementation, 01:14:32.480 --> 01:14:38.520 and, you know, it's kind of a way to let people talk about the same thing with a common language, 01:14:38.520 --> 01:14:44.840 and in real life, that doesn't actually happen. Like, not every single protocol stack has a neat 01:14:44.840 --> 01:14:50.500 seven layers on it. Usually, they have the bottom four, definitely, but, and then after that, 01:14:50.860 --> 01:14:54.320 you know, it depends on what the application is, and, you know, pretty much anything. 01:14:54.320 --> 01:15:02.980 Now, you have the physical layer on the bottom, right? And that's, like, the hardwire. 01:15:03.400 --> 01:15:03.680 Right. 01:15:03.760 --> 01:15:08.380 So, we don't really care about that. Then you have the link layer, which is, like, 01:15:08.400 --> 01:15:14.480 the Ethernet and all this trash. And now, the third layer is where we start to care. The third 01:15:14.480 --> 01:15:23.360 layer is the IP layer. So, that is, you know, like, the end-to-end IP addresses, like, your 32-bit, 01:15:23.360 --> 01:15:30.620 whatever. And that does not have the ports or anything else. That is one level. So, that's 01:15:30.620 --> 01:15:36.620 layer three. Now, in layer four, you end up with what they call the transport. Now, in the transport, 01:15:37.220 --> 01:15:43.220 you have TCP and UDP and a bunch of other stuff, and that is the thing with all the port numbers in 01:15:43.220 --> 01:15:47.240 it and all that junk. So, it's a different layer of abstraction. Then, after that, you'll have, 01:15:47.320 --> 01:15:51.760 like, the data, and depending on what application you're doing, you might have other headers. 01:15:51.760 --> 01:16:00.220 But when the packet comes in, you have a data packet, and then you kind of hack the headers 01:16:00.220 --> 01:16:06.400 on in, like, a reverse order. So, if you have, you know, some data that you want to send, 01:16:06.980 --> 01:16:14.140 and you're sending out, like, a normal TCP stream, you put the TCP header in front first, 01:16:14.140 --> 01:16:21.600 and then you put the IP header, you know, in front of that, and so on and so forth. So, 01:16:21.680 --> 01:16:28.060 if you visualize two stacks, and, you know, that's why they call it a stack. You have, you start, 01:16:28.200 --> 01:16:34.900 you're sitting in the top. You start, and when you send the data, you know, you go down the stack, 01:16:35.040 --> 01:16:40.060 which, you know, it goes from layer four, three, two, one, and you put it in that order as you 01:16:40.060 --> 01:16:46.220 traverse. So, after it goes out, the packet goes out, and you have those four headers on the data 01:16:46.220 --> 01:16:52.440 that you want to send, on the wire, it's going to have them in that order, so that when it gets to 01:16:52.440 --> 01:16:59.420 the other side, you have, you know, you kind of decapsulate it, or get rid of the header in the 01:16:59.420 --> 01:17:10.380 same fashion, or I guess in reverse order, which you put it in. Okay? Right. So, that is how the, 01:17:10.380 --> 01:17:15.720 you know, the headers work, and the headers contain information for, it's like a directive. 01:17:16.580 --> 01:17:21.420 If it's the IP layer, it tells you where to run the packet to the next top and all that junk, 01:17:21.840 --> 01:17:26.140 and if it's, like, the transport layer, then it tells you what port to send it to, 01:17:26.140 --> 01:17:32.880 and all that stuff. So, when an OS gets a packet, you know, in the physical layer, like, 01:17:33.100 --> 01:17:39.140 the OS is written with these layers logically separated out. So, once you get a packet, 01:17:39.660 --> 01:17:44.900 the first bit of code that deals with that will strip away the first header, and it'll take all 01:17:44.900 --> 01:17:49.560 the information it needs, and then from that point on, it'll know where to send the packet, 01:17:49.720 --> 01:17:54.280 the data packet, you know, which function to call, or what other thing to pass it to. 01:17:54.280 --> 01:18:01.240 So, each layer has really nothing to do with the layer previous. And the way they set that up 01:18:01.240 --> 01:18:06.620 is so you don't write fucking ugly code and have all these interdependencies between the layers. 01:18:07.800 --> 01:18:15.400 And, now, so you have tunneling, and we talked about, you know, IP over DNS a little bit. 01:18:15.400 --> 01:18:24.160 Now, what that does is, let's say you have a regular DNS packet, okay? You have the DNS protocol stack, 01:18:24.760 --> 01:18:30.640 you know, which is, like, the normal, you know, physical layer, link layer, whatever you're using, 01:18:31.140 --> 01:18:36.080 and then you have, like, IP and then UDP. Or you can have TCP, too, but we're not going to get into that. 01:18:36.080 --> 01:18:44.800 So, after the UDP layer, then you have the actual data. So, whether you're doing, you know, 01:18:44.840 --> 01:18:51.540 like a fucking request, reply, or whatever, you know, that's the data. Now, what you do is 01:18:51.540 --> 01:18:59.300 you replace that data with the actual IP header that you want to send. I mean, sorry, 01:18:59.300 --> 01:19:06.940 the IP packet that you want to send. So, when you look at that packet, right, you're going to end up 01:19:06.940 --> 01:19:14.760 having the physical link, your first IP and UDP layer. That's for the DNS packet. And after that, 01:19:14.820 --> 01:19:20.140 where the data is supposed to be, you have more headers, and that's what encapsulation is about. 01:19:20.560 --> 01:19:26.160 So, what happens is, at the receiving end, like your proxy, like, after you send that packet out, 01:19:26.160 --> 01:19:32.060 that contains your, like, HTTP request or whatever you're doing. The proxy needs to know, 01:19:32.120 --> 01:19:38.580 at that point, after it strips the DNS, IP, and UDP header, what to do with the next, all that stuff. 01:19:38.780 --> 01:19:44.040 Because it's expected. So, if you just run it with the regular DNS code, it's going to expect to see 01:19:44.040 --> 01:19:50.840 a DNS data packet, you know, of whatever format, I mean, of whatever DNS protocol that you're doing. 01:19:51.300 --> 01:19:55.920 It's expecting to see that. So, if you pass in your packet to that, it's just going to throw up, 01:19:55.920 --> 01:20:01.420 because it doesn't know what, why there is an IP header doing, you know, in there. And it's not 01:20:01.420 --> 01:20:06.040 even going to know it's an IP header. It's just going to be like, this is not a DNS packet. I don't 01:20:06.040 --> 01:20:11.580 know what to do with it. So, what I was saying earlier is that you need to have a special proxy 01:20:11.580 --> 01:20:19.140 written. So, when you run the server and you get that, quote, quote, DNS packet, your servers knows 01:20:19.140 --> 01:20:23.560 to say, oh, this is an actual, you know, actually an IP packet that I'm going to, you know, 01:20:23.560 --> 01:20:30.380 relage something else. So, that's why you need that. And that's how VPN works. And that 01:20:30.380 --> 01:20:31.800 is the topic of tonight. 01:20:32.060 --> 01:20:36.640 Well, verbal, actually, I think that might have to be the topic of next week. 01:20:37.840 --> 01:20:38.240 What? 01:20:38.300 --> 01:20:39.280 I know you've been on. 01:20:39.340 --> 01:20:39.960 Are we out of time? 01:20:39.960 --> 01:20:47.060 Yeah, we used quite a bit of time in the middle of the show there. So, we've got, I mean, maybe 01:20:47.060 --> 01:20:51.500 two or three minutes left. But I think, I know you've been on the show like a couple of weeks 01:20:51.500 --> 01:20:56.480 in a row now. But I think it might be better served if we continue this, because that's a 01:20:56.480 --> 01:21:01.720 lot to sink in. So, as a matter of fact, maybe that's what we'll do. Maybe we'll be sneaky 01:21:01.720 --> 01:21:07.400 and do a double-sized episode or something where we have three full hours to do the show. 01:21:07.500 --> 01:21:12.240 That might work out really cool, too. So, for now, unfortunately, we're going to wrap 01:21:12.240 --> 01:21:18.520 up the show with that. But I do, just to clarify, because I don't want it to be like I cut you 01:21:18.520 --> 01:21:22.600 off there. I want to make sure the listeners understand exactly that tunneling. And maybe 01:21:22.600 --> 01:21:28.320 let me say it back, and you correct me if I misinterpret this or say something. But to 01:21:28.320 --> 01:21:31.140 hear it from someone else, maybe it'll make sense. It'll be a little bit more clear, 01:21:31.140 --> 01:21:36.040 too, to hear both of us say it. Basically, and let's put it in a real-world scenario again. 01:21:36.100 --> 01:21:41.880 Let's say you're at an airport, and you want to bypass the charge. Or, of course, we're 01:21:41.880 --> 01:21:46.260 not condoning that or anything. But let's say you're in a place, and you want to use 01:21:46.260 --> 01:21:49.940 tunneling to your advantage. You want to use it simply for the encryption, which is your 01:21:49.940 --> 01:21:55.740 right to do. So, you would have to have set up a proxy server. Now, we'll use, it can 01:21:55.740 --> 01:22:00.860 be at your home. It can be, if you have a box, a co-located box, a server out there 01:22:00.860 --> 01:22:05.260 somewhere. And there are applications that exist, am I correct, that are already set 01:22:05.260 --> 01:22:05.820 up to do this. 01:22:05.820 --> 01:22:11.540 Yes. You can just download and install and run. You described how they work and what 01:22:11.540 --> 01:22:15.820 they do, but you do not have to reinvent the wheel. So, don't be intimidated by a lot of 01:22:15.820 --> 01:22:20.980 that, the technical discussion behind it. There's a lot of that that already exists. And 01:22:20.980 --> 01:22:25.220 you can put that on there. And basically, what it's doing is, you're sending a request 01:22:25.220 --> 01:22:31.220 to the greatest site in the world, binrev.com. And, of course, it's not going to go through 01:22:31.220 --> 01:22:35.500 normally. So, what you're going to do is, you're going to wrap that up into a DNS packet 01:22:35.500 --> 01:22:41.860 and send that to your server. Now, the way these pay system works in some of these things 01:22:41.860 --> 01:22:45.360 is they're not going to check DNS packets, is what you were alluding to earlier, correct? 01:22:46.620 --> 01:22:47.020 Yes. 01:22:47.180 --> 01:22:48.920 So, it's going to slide through that. 01:22:48.920 --> 01:22:52.320 They will let DNS packets through. 01:22:52.320 --> 01:22:59.220 And that DNS packet, in our particular case, when what we're doing is tunneling, is that 01:22:59.220 --> 01:23:06.740 DNS packet actually has our TCP IP packet. And I think also that TCP IP relationship gets 01:23:06.740 --> 01:23:10.460 fuzzy a lot to a lot of people. They think that they're both the same or they go hand 01:23:10.460 --> 01:23:14.180 in hand. And I think you did a good job of explaining the difference between layer three 01:23:14.180 --> 01:23:18.880 and layer four. So, I think that was an important thing to note, too. So, you're sending 01:23:18.880 --> 01:23:24.840 this, what would normally be a TCP IP. You're sending a normal request to binrev, a normal 01:23:24.840 --> 01:23:31.240 TCP IP packet. You're wrapping it up in a DNS packet and sending it to your proxy server, 01:23:31.340 --> 01:23:36.380 is what we're going to call it. Your server grabs it and says, oh, wait a minute. This 01:23:36.380 --> 01:23:42.540 isn't a DNS request at all. This is actually a request for binrev.com or whatever it is you 01:23:42.540 --> 01:23:47.260 wanted. And, of course, we're not talking one packet. We're talking about a series of all 01:23:47.260 --> 01:23:52.080 your requests being tunneled in this exact same fashion. And it's going to pass it on 01:23:52.080 --> 01:23:58.080 to the site. Inside of that packet also is your return address. So, it's going to send 01:23:58.080 --> 01:24:02.960 that back to you wherever you are. It's going to have assigned you an address and it's going 01:24:02.960 --> 01:24:08.900 to get routed back to you the same way. Is that over, is that simplified? 01:24:09.720 --> 01:24:16.540 Right. So, between your laptop in the airport and your server at home or wherever running 01:24:16.540 --> 01:24:23.880 the proxy, the traffic between those will look like DNS traffic. But from your proxy to wherever 01:24:23.880 --> 01:24:29.920 else you're going, it will look like whatever packets you want to send. It will get rid of 01:24:29.920 --> 01:24:36.400 all the stuff related to DNS. So, your proxy is the translation gateway, so to speak. 01:24:36.400 --> 01:24:39.540 Right. Just takes that outer wrapper off, that DNS wrapper off. 01:24:40.380 --> 01:24:40.780 Right. 01:24:41.780 --> 01:24:46.180 Well, good stuff. Good stuff. Well, yeah, I think that's a good stopping point right there. 01:24:46.280 --> 01:24:50.040 I'll let that sink in because I really do think a lot of people don't, I think a lot of people 01:24:50.040 --> 01:24:55.680 under, not underestimate, they don't go into that detail when they think about how packets 01:24:55.680 --> 01:25:02.680 are handed off. And, as our first email today mentioned, you know, this level of technical 01:25:02.680 --> 01:25:05.680 detail is difficult to get across on the radio. So, I think this really is a good, 01:25:05.680 --> 01:25:11.740 a good stopping point. And if anyone has any questions, you can hit the BinRev forums and 01:25:11.740 --> 01:25:16.060 post if anything was unclear and we can follow up on it on the next episode. Or, of course, 01:25:16.140 --> 01:25:24.660 you can email us at radio at binrev.com as we close out the show. I'll knock out our site of the 01:25:24.660 --> 01:25:29.980 week this week. I mentioned earlier it's bellsmind.net since it's back up and running once again. So, 01:25:29.980 --> 01:25:37.480 go check that out. And, you know, before we do shouts, we have maybe a minute here to do 01:25:37.480 --> 01:25:43.400 an update. What about that other project you were working on, the BinRev mentoring program? Is that 01:25:43.400 --> 01:25:46.460 still alive? Is it going well? Why don't you give us a little update? 01:25:47.360 --> 01:25:53.020 Actually, so, last show I was bitching about no one emailing me. And I guess people are listening 01:25:53.020 --> 01:25:58.880 because I've gotten a shitload of emails from that for people both, you know, volunteering to be 01:25:58.880 --> 01:26:07.060 mentors and asking to be mentees. Right now, we have like 14 or 16 people that are matched up. 01:26:07.700 --> 01:26:12.060 And, you know, more is coming and I just need to find the time to match people. So, if you haven't 01:26:12.060 --> 01:26:17.660 been matched yet, you know, if you don't have a mentor assigned to you or a mentee, just, you know, 01:26:17.660 --> 01:26:23.000 stay with me next couple of days. I'm going to sort out all the paperwork. But, I mean, 01:26:23.020 --> 01:26:27.460 the people we have already paired are doing great. They have, you know, like a plan and, 01:26:27.580 --> 01:26:31.380 and, you know, like the mentees are telling me that they're already learning a lot. So, 01:26:31.540 --> 01:26:38.360 this is actually taking off. And we have also, you know, a website that we have put up, you know, 01:26:38.420 --> 01:26:44.480 just kind of some static words about, you know, what this is all about and how much effort, 01:26:44.480 --> 01:26:49.560 you know, and how much time it requires. And how to contact us. So, if you want to, 01:26:49.680 --> 01:26:57.680 please go over to check out the site. And the URL is www.binrev.com slash projects 01:26:57.680 --> 01:27:06.560 slash mentors dot html. That's m-e-n-t-o-r-s mentors dot html. Not mentos. 01:27:07.280 --> 01:27:12.200 The fresh maker. That's what we should call the program, the fresh maker. The hack maker. 01:27:12.200 --> 01:27:18.200 So, okay. So, the webpage does exist. And I'm actually looking forward to be mentored by 01:27:18.200 --> 01:27:23.160 some people in there and some of the skills that I am not as up to par as I would like to be. Possibly 01:27:23.160 --> 01:27:27.940 even from you, Verbal. Because, I mean, I feel like I just got a mentoring session with this last part 01:27:27.940 --> 01:27:31.780 of the episode. And it's going to continue on to the next one. So, that's awesome. 01:27:32.160 --> 01:27:36.860 I hope so. How about some... Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, one thing I want to mention is that you can be both a 01:27:36.860 --> 01:27:42.620 mentor and a mentee. You know, if you have the time to devote to it, nothing prevents you from, 01:27:42.780 --> 01:27:48.120 you know, mentoring multiple people or being mentored by multiple people. Just tell me what 01:27:48.120 --> 01:27:52.820 you want to learn and tell me how much time you have. And I will, you know, I will match you up. 01:27:53.280 --> 01:27:56.820 And, you know, the thing is, okay. So, for example, right now, I'm mentoring Crackton 01:27:56.820 --> 01:28:01.140 and I'm being mentored by Savant. And it's working out great. And, you know, 01:28:01.520 --> 01:28:05.500 so you can do both and nothing prevents that. Just the time you have. 01:28:06.500 --> 01:28:12.080 And we did set up an email address specifically for that, for people to email if they want to be 01:28:12.080 --> 01:28:16.800 a mentor or mentee. And it's on that webpage. But just for the listeners, it is, again, 01:28:16.920 --> 01:28:17.900 what was that email? 01:28:19.020 --> 01:28:21.740 That is mentorship at binrev.com. 01:28:21.820 --> 01:28:24.880 Got it. All right. How about some quick shouts for the end of the show? 01:28:24.880 --> 01:28:30.180 So, I'll go ahead and spew mine out real quick. Since this was kind of like a little 01:28:30.180 --> 01:28:34.220 Geek Love Radio thing going on this week, I'm going to give some shouts to DJ Mollusk 01:28:34.220 --> 01:28:37.340 and to Sub-Zero, our good friends over there at Geek Love Radio. 01:28:38.420 --> 01:28:41.980 And, let's see, our newest moderator, newest member of the moderating team, 01:28:42.100 --> 01:28:45.460 Seal, longtime friend of the show, longtime friend of the revolution. 01:28:46.240 --> 01:28:49.180 And since you just mentioned him, and you probably will second me on this, 01:28:49.240 --> 01:28:49.960 to Savant. 01:28:50.880 --> 01:28:54.420 Yes. Shouts to Savant. Thank you very much. And shouts to Crackton. 01:28:54.880 --> 01:29:03.460 And our closing music this week, oh, a shouts, of course, to, I have to make sure I say this 01:29:03.460 --> 01:29:09.460 correctly, shouts to Noe Lani. I have to say thank you for coming on the show. That was 01:29:09.460 --> 01:29:11.580 very entertaining. I thought that was really good. 01:29:12.380 --> 01:29:14.380 Yeah, thanks, Noe Lani, for coming on the show. 01:29:14.380 --> 01:29:21.040 And our closing music this week is called I Know My Rights. It's from ADD or Jeff Fall. 01:29:22.500 --> 01:29:27.460 It's from their new mini-album, if you want to call it that, which you can download from their 01:29:27.460 --> 01:29:36.380 website, actdead.com, A-C-T-D-E-A-D.com. Cool little track that I found, so I hope you enjoy it. 01:29:36.380 --> 01:29:42.200 And, Verbal, thank you for being on the show, and we will have to continue this, hopefully, 01:29:42.760 --> 01:29:44.820 next week. Same Hack Time. 01:29:45.380 --> 01:29:46.360 Same Hack Channel. 01:29:46.360 --> 01:30:16.240 Locked me in the dungeon, beat me with chains, smashing my brain. Toothpicks in my eyelid, 01:30:16.240 --> 01:30:26.260 watching television. You took away everything I loved, but nothing that I needed. Bound and blinded 01:30:26.260 --> 01:30:34.460 me, broke my nose, and threw me in the street. But I know it's gonna be okay, nothing's bad 01:30:34.460 --> 01:30:42.320 as it seems. Gonna be alright, cause I know my rights, cause the good Lord came to me and I'd dream. 01:30:42.320 --> 01:31:00.840 Holy hand of justice, don't let me beg for mercy. When they tie up my ankles, tie up my wrists, 01:31:00.840 --> 01:31:05.720 don't let me scream so many lives, like this. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. 01:31:05.720 --> 01:31:07.680 Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. 01:31:07.680 --> 01:31:16.240 Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. 01:31:16.240 --> 01:31:24.860 Hold on to me and heart, and I'm feeling real smart. Because see, I'm looking for a man like 01:31:24.860 --> 01:31:27.520 A man like me, nothing's so difficult. 01:31:27.520 --> 01:31:32.460 A man like me, like me in the dungeon. 01:31:32.860 --> 01:31:35.520 Beat me with chains, smashing my brains. 01:31:36.480 --> 01:31:40.040 Toothpicks in my eyelids, watching television. 01:31:42.080 --> 01:31:46.520 Da-da, da-da. 01:31:46.520 --> 01:31:55.220 I'm gonna go to heaven when I die. 01:31:55.340 --> 01:31:58.440 Won't see you there, but that's all right. 01:31:59.460 --> 01:32:02.460 It's easy to forget about these things. 01:32:04.780 --> 01:32:08.800 It's easy to forget about these things. 01:32:10.820 --> 01:32:13.420 Let me know I'm gonna be okay. 01:32:13.420 --> 01:32:16.080 Nothing's bad as it seems. 01:32:16.520 --> 01:32:19.480 It's gonna be all right, cause I know my rights. 01:32:19.560 --> 01:32:22.000 Cause the good Lord is praying to me and I. 01:32:22.000 --> 01:32:26.040 It's gonna be all right, cause I know my right. 01:32:26.040 --> 01:32:28.040 It's gonna be all right. 01:32:28.040 --> 01:32:29.540 It's gonna be all right. 01:32:29.540 --> 01:32:31.520 It's gonna be all right. 01:32:31.520 --> 01:33:01.500 We'll be right back.