WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:09.460 This is dedicated to all the hackers and the crackers, to the hackers and the crackers. 00:09.760 --> 00:15.520 I see in binary, I speak source code, step on my toes, I'll post a million jpegs of you 00:15.520 --> 00:20.780 and a fag pwned, in your digital stance getting firewalled ho, cause I'm riding the net in 00:20.780 --> 00:26.440 my six-fold, I was a dick with my 56, now with my cable I'm able to get that stable, 00:26.440 --> 00:31.740 on the out, my name is Ace and I'm a Leo, on the digital highway, my name is Neo and 00:31.740 --> 00:37.240 I'm a hero, in a flash, I'll screw you on burning dreamcast, you need some ISO, let me through 00:37.240 --> 00:42.680 my hard drive rifle, our exchange you could never stifle, in a digital hug, you just caught 00:42.680 --> 00:48.940 the love bug, I bootlegged your CD, I caused a fight between Un and Jay-Z, your CG, it's 00:48.940 --> 00:53.460 all gonna be free, whether we take it by force or we take it nicely, you feel that rattling 00:53.460 --> 00:58.040 your phones, when I tell you we just hacked out Jones, and NASDAQ leaves your fight on 00:58.040 --> 01:03.100 your back, cause I am he who loves to hack and crack, cause I am he who loves to hack and 01:03.100 --> 01:09.540 crack, this is dedicated to the hackers and the crackers, serial code, source code, ISO, 01:10.100 --> 01:20.660 RANS, SIFS, SIFS, this is dedicated to the hackers and the crack, this is episode 166 and 01:20.660 --> 01:27.780 today is Tuesday, September 26th, 2006, I am your host, Verbal, and today we have a very 01:27.780 --> 01:31.240 special guest, Spag Dog, how's it going? 01:31.580 --> 01:34.560 Special as in like rides the short bus to the show special? 01:35.940 --> 01:42.900 Something like that, you take that as what you will, but today we have a good show for 01:42.900 --> 01:47.300 you, but before I get into the specifics, let's do some housekeeping. 01:47.300 --> 01:52.840 The first thing I would like to mention is that, well first of all, I want to thank you 01:52.840 --> 01:58.900 everyone for emailing me about the mentorship program, I've gotten a lot of response and 01:58.900 --> 02:06.940 a lot of people asking to help out, you know, as mentors, but we do need about five or so 02:06.940 --> 02:11.420 more mentors, cause you know, mentees keep coming in and we're not keeping up with the 02:11.420 --> 02:18.280 ratio, so if you have, you know, something you want to teach or anything, you know, if 02:18.280 --> 02:24.340 you feel like you can be a mentor, please send an email to mentorship at binrep.com. 02:25.180 --> 02:32.560 Most of the things right now are people asking to be mentored in coding and PEARL especially 02:32.560 --> 02:39.300 for some reason, but PEARL and C and all of that junk, so if you know or know someone 02:39.300 --> 02:42.520 who is familiar with that, please tell them to give us an email. 02:43.320 --> 02:44.440 Stank, do you have any housekeeping? 02:45.480 --> 02:48.160 I have a quick thing, a very short thing. 02:48.760 --> 02:56.180 I mentioned last week on the show that we had gotten our spam woes cleared up and apparently 02:56.180 --> 02:56.620 we don't. 02:56.620 --> 03:01.580 We're back on another spam list, so bear with us a little bit, it's not one of the 03:01.580 --> 03:06.780 biggest ones, but we are getting some bounces again saying we're on spam and it's kind of 03:06.780 --> 03:09.000 getting on my nerves because it's such a hassle. 03:09.760 --> 03:14.300 These things are very, very anal and they look at the tiniest little things and it makes it 03:14.300 --> 03:20.960 so much work and so much burden to a webmaster of a legitimate site like ours to be able to 03:20.960 --> 03:22.780 do something that should be simple and common. 03:22.780 --> 03:29.620 I mean, their complaint now is that our mail server identifies itself by IP address. 03:29.700 --> 03:33.000 When you issue a hello command, it identifies by IP address instead of a host name. 03:33.600 --> 03:35.360 Big fucking deal, so what? 03:35.820 --> 03:38.620 I mean, it's the correct IP address, it's the correct host name. 03:38.900 --> 03:45.100 That may be common to spammers, I realize that, but single those individual IPs out of the 03:45.100 --> 03:46.240 spammers and block them. 03:46.360 --> 03:51.520 I mean, giving a false positive on anybody who actually runs a secure server is really pretty 03:51.520 --> 03:57.100 freaking stupid and I'm politely choosing my words and I'm going to be happy and polite 03:57.100 --> 04:01.400 about the whole thing and just say, bear with us, we'll get it solved, we're working on getting 04:01.400 --> 04:05.840 our name off of these lists again and shouldn't take too awful long. 04:06.620 --> 04:10.300 We might have to do a little reconfiguring on the mail server just to make the stupid thing 04:10.300 --> 04:11.680 bow down to their rules. 04:11.680 --> 04:15.280 So, uh, that's pretty much all I have to talk about in the housekeeping. 04:16.520 --> 04:20.680 Yes, fuck those guys right in here, evidently. 04:21.460 --> 04:25.680 Okay, so, we have a ton of shit to do on the show, actually. 04:26.200 --> 04:29.560 So, I'm going to move right along and we're going to do some emails. 04:29.560 --> 04:52.200 Okay, before I actually start reading some emails, you said you had something regarding 04:52.200 --> 04:53.580 this you wanted to talk about. 04:54.200 --> 04:56.760 So, do you want to do your thing? 04:56.760 --> 05:00.220 I just wanted to let people know, and I kind of mentioned that last week, we had a couple 05:00.220 --> 05:03.820 emails, we've had quite a few emails, which is fantastic, which is great. 05:04.800 --> 05:09.720 I purposely saved a couple this week so that when we had you, because I knew that you were 05:09.720 --> 05:12.460 going to be back on the show this week, that you would be actually running the show this 05:12.460 --> 05:12.680 week. 05:13.500 --> 05:17.900 So, I purposely saved a couple of these delayed to have you back on the show to address 05:17.900 --> 05:18.420 some of them. 05:18.960 --> 05:21.060 And we've kind of done the same again this week. 05:21.140 --> 05:24.280 We've gotten quite a few emails and we're not going to be able to get to all of them on the 05:24.280 --> 05:24.480 show. 05:24.480 --> 05:26.560 However, I want people to know that we did get them. 05:27.520 --> 05:31.460 And some of them were, we had put out a call, let me shorten it. 05:31.600 --> 05:36.600 We put out a call last week for, if anybody is interested in some of the tools that Quine 05:36.600 --> 05:41.360 and I had mentioned on the show, if you wanted more detail on them, we could do some more 05:41.360 --> 05:43.460 in-depth analysis of some of these tools. 05:44.080 --> 05:48.280 So, we got quite a few emails of people saying, yes, I'd like to hear a review of this tool 05:48.280 --> 05:50.540 or that tool, which is kind of cool. 05:50.740 --> 05:52.360 So, we are working on those. 05:52.420 --> 05:54.320 We're putting them on the to-do list. 05:54.940 --> 05:58.480 And we'll have some, I actually have a couple hosts in mind for some of these. 05:58.840 --> 06:01.080 So, we will be doing those in the future. 06:01.080 --> 06:04.820 So, we may not read your email on the air, but we did get it and we appreciate it. 06:05.380 --> 06:10.200 But, and actually kind of as an aside note here, I guess, it's really easy to like do 06:10.200 --> 06:16.580 a little quick review on any of these tools or give you a list or a general rundown or 06:16.580 --> 06:20.420 even make some kind of how to use whatever this tool is. 06:20.420 --> 06:21.940 How do you use Metasploit? 06:22.000 --> 06:22.740 How do you use this? 06:22.760 --> 06:24.060 And show you it in action. 06:24.180 --> 06:27.240 You know, I can do a little presentation, step-by-step video, whatever. 06:27.860 --> 06:32.220 But, it's actually a little bit different when, because see, we actually like to talk about 06:32.220 --> 06:37.160 how things work, why they work the way they do, and maybe even expand on it a little bit 06:37.160 --> 06:42.080 as far as the applications of some of these tools and some of the nuances about them, some 06:42.080 --> 06:46.840 of the, you know, possible improvements, problems, or cool features that people might not 06:46.840 --> 06:47.040 know. 06:47.040 --> 06:51.300 So, doing a more in-depth show is not as simple as just saying, oh yeah, we're going 06:51.300 --> 06:56.420 to do that next week and read you the fact or read you the website. 06:56.820 --> 06:58.740 We kind of do it a little bit more in-depth than that. 06:58.800 --> 07:01.580 So, anybody can throw together something quickly, but we don't want to do that. 07:01.680 --> 07:05.380 So, we are putting these on the list and they should be coming up soon, but we are going 07:05.380 --> 07:10.280 to put the time into them to make these interesting, because I know on the surface doing an entire 07:10.280 --> 07:15.780 episode on one or two particular tools might not sound as interesting as you may think, 07:15.780 --> 07:19.760 but I think if you give it a chance, you might be surprised at some of the information that 07:19.760 --> 07:20.780 you will pick up on these. 07:20.860 --> 07:24.180 So, I just wanted to kind of let people know that we did get their emails, and thank you 07:24.180 --> 07:24.580 for that. 07:24.800 --> 07:28.780 And then, I guess we had a couple specific ones we were going to address on the show 07:28.780 --> 07:29.040 tonight. 07:29.040 --> 07:36.060 Yeah, that idea actually is really good, and I'm sure a ton of people are going to want 07:36.060 --> 07:41.600 like a how-to-use like step-by-step thing, you know, for whatever tool that they're interested 07:41.600 --> 07:41.820 in. 07:41.880 --> 07:47.000 It just makes it easier to get it, you know, start using it and all that stuff. 07:47.000 --> 07:55.880 So, email specifics, or specific emails, sorry, my brain might not be working correctly, but 07:55.880 --> 07:59.660 the first email is from Billy. 08:00.280 --> 08:09.140 In regards to the episode on tunneling, he said, without talking about OpenVPN, it literally 08:09.140 --> 08:13.980 installs a virtual NIC on your machine and the server, they're just moving together through 08:13.980 --> 08:16.120 an encrypted channel through your real NIC. 08:16.120 --> 08:23.200 The channel can even be configured to use UDP53 solely, so that it could look like DNS. 08:23.700 --> 08:28.580 It takes maybe 30 minutes to set up the first time, and it's massively powerful in its configuration. 08:29.220 --> 08:33.320 I'm actually listed as a major contributor to their open source project. 08:33.740 --> 08:39.140 I've sent in various suggestions and some thanks money a couple times, and hopefully someday 08:39.140 --> 08:41.680 I can contribute to the code if I ever get the time. 08:41.680 --> 08:47.500 If your listeners want to make it an easy, secure VPN connection from their laptop through 08:47.500 --> 08:52.960 some wireless access point to port 53 to their home network, they need to know about this. 08:52.960 --> 09:00.600 And he gives the site, which is www.openvpn.net. 09:01.100 --> 09:11.540 And VPN, and OpenVPN runs on, you know, Linux, Windows, and all the BFDs, OS X, Solaris, and even PocketBP. 09:11.540 --> 09:15.560 So, it runs on, you know, pretty much everything. 09:16.700 --> 09:19.680 Actually, have you ever used OpenVPN before? 09:20.200 --> 09:22.500 I actually have not used OpenVPN at all. 09:22.580 --> 09:24.900 I've only used the commercial vendors. 09:25.440 --> 09:26.740 I really have never used OpenVPN. 09:27.940 --> 09:32.020 I do regret that we didn't mention it, at least on the show for sure, because it is definitely 09:32.020 --> 09:33.240 a worthwhile project. 09:34.380 --> 09:42.300 Yeah, I mean, OpenVPN, like Felicia, is kind of like the one to get in the open source world. 09:42.780 --> 09:44.500 You know, it supports everything. 09:44.620 --> 09:45.460 It runs on everything. 09:45.860 --> 09:51.140 And the code is, you know, pretty solid from as far as I can tell, you know, having used 09:51.140 --> 09:51.300 it. 09:51.360 --> 09:54.000 I mean, I've never actually audited the code or anything. 09:54.700 --> 09:55.560 You know, it's stable. 09:55.800 --> 09:57.820 It does what it's supposed to do. 09:57.820 --> 10:03.840 And you can, like, you know, use all the options that we talked about on that show, like encrypting 10:03.840 --> 10:08.040 with, like, IPsec or using, like, SSL or whatever. 10:08.560 --> 10:09.380 It works. 10:09.520 --> 10:15.880 So, if you are looking to use VPNs in, you know, in your own home environment or for your 10:15.880 --> 10:18.660 travels or whatever, you should definitely look at OpenVPN. 10:19.340 --> 10:20.140 Yeah, absolutely. 10:20.260 --> 10:24.300 Actually, I even, honestly, I feel a little bit bad because we are a big proponent of open 10:24.300 --> 10:26.580 source and open projects like this. 10:26.580 --> 10:27.680 And we really should have mentioned it. 10:27.700 --> 10:28.880 So, I feel a little bit bad about that. 10:28.940 --> 10:30.200 And we definitely support this. 10:30.820 --> 10:34.920 Also, if you want to read more, I chopped the email off a little bit. 10:36.160 --> 10:36.720 Oh, really? 10:37.240 --> 10:41.640 Well, he just copied and pasted the list of features that came from the website. 10:41.860 --> 10:46.480 And I figured we could definitely send our listeners over to openvpn.net and let them 10:46.480 --> 10:51.320 read them for themselves for sake of brevity on the show and time spent on email. 10:51.480 --> 10:52.680 I thought we'd do that. 10:52.680 --> 10:55.220 So, and you're breaking up a little bit on us there. 10:55.320 --> 11:00.440 But I think you did mention that there was a Pocket PC port that was in development right 11:00.440 --> 11:00.660 now. 11:00.780 --> 11:05.140 So, that also is something that I think is, at least to me anyway, would be useful if I 11:05.140 --> 11:06.980 can get that working on my PDA phone. 11:07.080 --> 11:08.040 So, I think that's kind of cool. 11:09.340 --> 11:10.500 Which PDA phone do you have? 11:10.520 --> 11:10.840 The Trio? 11:11.120 --> 11:12.480 I have the Trio 700. 11:12.480 --> 11:13.140 The Trio 700, yes. 11:13.500 --> 11:20.900 And it's hit and miss sometimes, but that's definitely a topic for, I think I've beaten 11:20.900 --> 11:21.780 that horse to death. 11:21.800 --> 11:22.620 Right, right. 11:22.640 --> 11:23.420 I've done that to death. 11:23.420 --> 11:23.680 Yeah. 11:24.260 --> 11:26.700 Sorry if I break up a little bit. 11:26.980 --> 11:28.620 I am on a cell phone. 11:29.340 --> 11:32.380 And that's probably because I suck at the online. 11:34.660 --> 11:36.100 You do that. 11:36.180 --> 11:37.300 You do suck at the online. 11:37.300 --> 11:43.900 Hopefully, at some point, I will get a landline, so I will be coming in clear. 11:44.380 --> 11:49.420 And how's your spleen or your liver or your kidneys or whatever it is you have? 11:49.640 --> 11:57.440 Yeah, I mean, if I talk to you on R&D or whatever, you'll know that last week I was MIA because 11:57.440 --> 11:58.820 I was in the hospital. 11:59.460 --> 12:02.700 I had a ruptured attenance in there to take that out. 12:02.800 --> 12:03.460 A ruptured what? 12:04.540 --> 12:04.860 Huh? 12:05.060 --> 12:05.880 A ruptured what? 12:05.880 --> 12:07.960 A ruptured appendix. 12:08.200 --> 12:08.600 Appendix. 12:08.660 --> 12:09.140 Oh, okay. 12:09.700 --> 12:15.280 It's like the little organ that doesn't do anything on your large intestine, but it can 12:15.280 --> 12:22.240 get infected and then explode, releasing tasty toxins into your stomach. 12:22.800 --> 12:26.880 Well, I'm holding back a joke about an organ that doesn't do anything, but that's... 12:27.700 --> 12:28.680 Oh, snap. 12:29.120 --> 12:30.480 Oh, no, he didn't. 12:30.740 --> 12:31.460 Actually, I didn't. 12:31.540 --> 12:32.240 No, I held it back. 12:32.320 --> 12:32.660 So, all right. 12:32.740 --> 12:33.720 So, how about another email? 12:33.720 --> 12:36.040 Okay. 12:36.840 --> 12:37.320 Okay. 12:37.440 --> 12:40.540 So, the next email is from VoltageX. 12:41.220 --> 12:42.120 Hi, guys. 12:42.240 --> 12:45.120 Not going to address this to one particular host. 12:45.740 --> 12:46.660 Hi, Verbal. 12:47.040 --> 12:52.320 After listening to episode 162, I looked up DNS tunneling. 12:52.620 --> 12:57.600 I'd had to look at it before, but only found some tools that were really hard to use. 12:57.600 --> 13:14.600 One discussion I found was hgp slash tinyurl.com jxql5, and a potentially helpful site is www.dnstunnel.de. 13:14.600 --> 13:20.720 I'm really starting to enjoy BinRev again, especially Stank's comments on what is a hacker. 13:21.260 --> 13:25.980 I agree that many people are hackers or have the hacker mentality without realizing it. 13:26.360 --> 13:32.780 I guess that's one of the reasons I wear the hacker hat from ThinkGeek, apart from all the funny reactions I get. 13:32.780 --> 13:37.700 But I could get into more of this religious debate on hacker than that. 13:37.820 --> 13:38.520 I'll save it for later. 13:38.680 --> 13:40.340 Thanks again to Dex. 13:41.780 --> 13:42.320 All right. 13:42.440 --> 13:42.880 All right. 13:43.140 --> 13:44.820 I don't know really what to reply to that. 13:44.920 --> 13:47.380 I think that's pretty self-explanatory on my end. 13:47.420 --> 13:49.100 Did you have anything to... 13:49.100 --> 13:55.600 No, I mean, no, thanks for writing in, and I guess, you know, thanks for... 13:55.600 --> 13:56.920 Thanks for the links. 13:57.000 --> 13:58.060 Thanks for the links, for sure. 13:58.160 --> 14:02.280 That tinyurl, jxql5, just to repeat it. 14:02.280 --> 14:02.460 Yeah. 14:02.720 --> 14:08.500 I was browsing through that earlier, so I think that's something that will definitely help our listeners out. 14:10.160 --> 14:10.560 Yep. 14:11.080 --> 14:15.120 Yeah, I'm trying to not get into another discussion about the what is a hacker thing. 14:15.180 --> 14:15.780 Yeah, and that's... 14:15.780 --> 14:16.240 We'll move on. 14:16.420 --> 14:17.020 I'm holding my tongue. 14:17.300 --> 14:18.120 Yeah, well, no, it's all right. 14:18.120 --> 14:18.660 We'll move on. 14:18.760 --> 14:20.720 That's something we've gone into multiple times. 14:20.780 --> 14:23.360 I think our feelings are well-known on that, so... 14:23.360 --> 14:23.740 Right. 14:25.600 --> 14:28.320 Okay, the next email is from IronGeek. 14:29.260 --> 14:30.120 Hi, guys. 14:30.200 --> 14:34.200 What verb said about Gmail in episode 164 was mostly correct. 14:34.200 --> 14:41.200 If you web surf to gmail.com, by default, it only encrypts the authentication and interactions thereafter. 14:41.920 --> 14:44.040 Do not use SSL slash TLS. 14:44.040 --> 14:58.120 However, if you set your entry page to HTTPS slash mail.google.com and log in, everything is encrypted, including email, and you send and receive it from Gmail. 14:58.380 --> 14:59.160 Hope that helps. 14:59.160 --> 15:08.540 Actually, so we were talking about this before the show, Stank and I, and we tried it out and it works, so that is definitely good to know. 15:08.640 --> 15:09.780 It's something I did not know. 15:09.780 --> 15:19.300 So what, just to recap, if you didn't get it, IronGeek is saying, if you just go normally to Gmail, because I always just type in, like, gmail.com and then go. 15:19.860 --> 15:26.400 You know, if you do that, then when you get in, it forces you to log in via HTTPS. 15:26.400 --> 15:36.640 And, you know, so that's what we were talking about on episode 164, where we're like, okay, it only encrypts your password, you know, so it doesn't send it to a clear text. 15:36.820 --> 15:39.160 Subsequently, you know, over plain text. 15:39.560 --> 15:50.600 But he's saying, if you go to a different URL to Skype, that's, like, the entry page, then it won't kick you out of HTTPS and, you know, leave you in it. 15:50.600 --> 15:56.380 So all the emails you send and receive, you know, how you're using Gmail will be encrypted. 15:57.200 --> 16:00.380 So everyone who uses Gmail, start doing that from now on. 16:00.560 --> 16:02.180 And don't go to gmail.com. 16:02.340 --> 16:13.760 Yeah, and part of that is just the browser's behavior in general by default, I guess, for lack of a better word, is if you don't specifically tell it which protocol to use, it uses HTTP protocol, 16:13.760 --> 16:24.260 which makes common sense for 99% of the time, but hard coding that S in there, that secure HTTP, hard coding that will tell it to go through a different route and have everything encrypted. 16:24.260 --> 16:34.500 And just in case anybody wanted to know, I mentioned on that episode also that Yahoo will automatically log you in with a secure protocol. 16:34.660 --> 16:39.700 It will log you in through SSL, but once you're in there, it's sending everything in plain text. 16:39.700 --> 16:41.860 So that is still true. 16:42.020 --> 16:49.100 If you try the same trick, I just tried it on mail.yahoo.com, it kicks you back out to HTTP, even if you do hard code it. 16:49.300 --> 16:53.540 So that is something that is unique to Gmail, and I will say that is definitely a good thing. 16:53.780 --> 16:56.580 See, I can say good things about Google sometimes. 16:57.280 --> 16:57.880 It's possible. 16:57.880 --> 17:04.540 I also think the actual URL you use is important. 17:05.340 --> 17:11.140 If you do, like, HTTPS slash slash gmail.com, I think it also will kick you out. 17:11.440 --> 17:14.680 So you have to do, I think, mail.google.com. 17:15.480 --> 17:15.840 Okay. 17:16.220 --> 17:16.780 Good to know. 17:16.920 --> 17:17.100 Yeah. 17:17.380 --> 17:18.940 So, yes, that is definitely a good tip. 17:18.940 --> 17:20.480 Thank you, Iron Geek, for that. 17:20.480 --> 17:27.040 Yeah, I mean, thanks, Iron Geek, for telling us, because I definitely will start doing that. 17:28.440 --> 17:28.920 Okay. 17:29.720 --> 17:30.680 Next email. 17:31.560 --> 17:33.600 This is from Anonymous. 17:34.440 --> 17:35.660 Stank Company. 17:36.340 --> 17:43.380 First off, I've been listening to the show since, well, I don't know, but it's been a long time now. 17:43.660 --> 17:45.440 The show is the shit store. 17:45.600 --> 17:46.460 Bang, bang, bang. 17:46.460 --> 17:53.580 I would like to thank you and your co-hosts for the time and effort you guys and gals put into it. 17:54.000 --> 18:03.480 I do have a question and or idea I was trying to get info on, so I'd be interested in seeing if yourself, co-hosts, and or listeners have any information on it. 18:03.940 --> 18:06.640 I'm trying to find out information regarding the technology. 18:07.200 --> 18:15.640 Gooba.com is slash are using to filter out copyrighted material from their users' uploaded videos. 18:15.640 --> 18:26.740 From my understanding, it creates a map, in quotes, of the file and then looks through it, searching for a match of copyrighted maps and removes it. 18:27.540 --> 18:33.000 I can see how this is great for them so they don't have issues with the owner of the copyrighted material. 18:33.640 --> 18:36.200 I've emailed them and they are unable to comment on it. 18:36.320 --> 18:37.880 Any idea what or how it works? 18:37.880 --> 18:43.920 I love to create maps of TV ads, so they are insto-deleto-ed. 18:44.960 --> 18:48.540 I think you made up a word there, insto-deleto-ed. 18:49.480 --> 18:51.240 Oh, insto-deleto-ed. 18:51.400 --> 18:52.280 Oh, I get it. 18:52.280 --> 18:53.320 I get it. 18:53.640 --> 18:54.700 Yeah, it works for me. 18:56.700 --> 18:58.560 Now, do you know anything about this site? 19:00.420 --> 19:01.080 Sorry, go ahead. 19:01.280 --> 19:03.340 I said, do you know anything about this Gooba.com? 19:03.480 --> 19:04.780 I know nothing. 19:04.780 --> 19:05.720 Yeah, me either. 19:05.880 --> 19:06.580 I've got to be honest. 19:06.640 --> 19:07.460 I've never looked at it. 19:08.560 --> 19:11.800 But may I – I actually have some questions about this myself. 19:12.080 --> 19:14.400 And let me bounce these off of you and see what you think, actually. 19:15.720 --> 19:19.100 First of all, this – I'm not sure if I'm – am I misunderstanding this? 19:19.140 --> 19:27.000 If it creates a map of the file, as he says, and then looks through it, searching for a match of copyrighted maps and removes it. 19:27.000 --> 19:35.100 So wouldn't you need copyrighted – maps of copyrighted material ahead of time, a database of copyrighted maps somehow? 19:35.580 --> 19:37.600 Is that what he's saying in this email? 19:39.820 --> 19:41.240 I think so. 19:41.440 --> 19:44.000 I'm not exactly sure because I haven't been to the site. 19:44.000 --> 19:52.720 No, but if he's – if I'm understanding his explanation – and, again, I admit I haven't – I glanced at the site when I got this email, but I didn't read it too in-depth. 19:53.520 --> 19:58.580 So by all means, if any listeners know it, by all means email us and radioatvinrev.com let us know. 19:58.960 --> 20:00.260 But here's what I'm wondering. 20:00.360 --> 20:02.220 See if I'm thinking incorrectly here. 20:02.800 --> 20:08.700 If you – you have to have the cooperation of everybody sending you their copyright map. 20:08.700 --> 20:13.480 Here is a copyright map for X, Y, Z, and I would think you'd need a lot of them. 20:13.560 --> 20:18.940 They'd have to send one for every show, every movie, every whatever to be stored in your database. 20:19.060 --> 20:23.600 So you'd need a lot of cooperation from the distributors and the people. 20:23.780 --> 20:26.140 And then second of all, which is all fine. 20:26.200 --> 20:28.160 First of all, that seems like a big obstacle to overcome. 20:29.060 --> 20:31.680 Now, I may be misinterpreting the way the site works. 20:31.720 --> 20:32.360 I'll admit that. 20:32.360 --> 20:41.180 Maybe the – when you upload something for the first time, you upload it with – you upload your mask with it at the same time, or your map with it, excuse me, at the same time. 20:41.960 --> 20:57.700 But secondly, wouldn't that be defeated by simply – not making a copy of it, but extracting it again or re-encoding it again even with a no-loss codec or just kind of re – I'm not sure what the word is. 20:57.700 --> 21:02.080 It's just recreating the actual bytecode or – I'm not sure. 21:02.080 --> 21:10.700 Right, so what you're saying is, you know, you can, like, pass it through another filter and maybe, like, down a little bit or something like that. 21:10.920 --> 21:25.820 It seems to me like this map would be easily – you know, I guess a good thing is, like – a good idea would be, like, you know how if you get past the DRM on, like, iTunes or whatever is you can burn it to a CD, then use a ripping software to re-rip it back off of said CD. 21:25.820 --> 21:28.140 And it's ripped it off without the DRM intact. 21:28.220 --> 21:30.860 You're bypassing it that way, and there's no longer the same map. 21:30.920 --> 21:35.540 It's a new encoding of your material, but it's still at the quality. 21:36.540 --> 21:38.820 And it seems like that would be easy to do here as well. 21:38.980 --> 21:41.420 But maybe I'm not understanding properly. 21:42.380 --> 21:48.140 Yeah, that doesn't sound – yeah, like, just from reading the email, though, it doesn't sound like the best solution. 21:48.140 --> 21:57.720 And, you know, to be honest, it's probably not that good of a solution, and it's not, like, all over the news as, you know, the thing to use. 21:57.880 --> 22:01.480 But then again, that just might be easy to say. 22:01.700 --> 22:06.000 Yeah, and again, I admit that I don't know much about it, so, again, if our listeners know it. 22:06.820 --> 22:10.940 Actually, do you think this might actually make a good – because it is interesting to me. 22:10.940 --> 22:19.220 This might be an interesting, like, research project for somebody in the forums to do, and, you know, maybe you'll find out something interesting enough to put together an article or something like that. 22:20.160 --> 22:21.360 Yeah, definitely. 22:21.640 --> 22:28.280 Like, start, you know, start a thread and, you know, get some people interested and start poking around at it. 22:28.740 --> 22:36.860 Yeah, even if it's just one or two people, I mean, right, put the research together and see if you can find something there and release it as an article. 22:37.080 --> 22:37.800 I'd read it. 22:38.200 --> 22:39.680 You know, I find it interesting. 22:40.940 --> 22:43.600 Yeah, yeah, definitely. 22:44.320 --> 22:49.540 You know, it could turn into a con presentation or something or whatever you want to do. 22:49.700 --> 22:50.420 You'd be surprised. 22:50.420 --> 22:51.200 I'm sure it's cool. 22:51.500 --> 22:54.020 Yeah, you'd definitely be surprised at what people find interesting. 22:54.180 --> 22:56.780 I absolutely – just joking – I mean, I'm being very serious. 22:56.840 --> 22:57.700 I do find that interesting. 22:57.820 --> 23:00.740 I would like to see if somebody finds that out, so. 23:01.700 --> 23:02.040 Yeah. 23:02.740 --> 23:03.140 All right. 23:03.140 --> 23:03.600 Me, too. 23:04.200 --> 23:04.880 All righty. 23:05.720 --> 23:06.680 Next email. 23:06.680 --> 23:14.060 Matt says, I don't think it's cool to start hitting on people in grocery stores. 23:14.120 --> 23:14.460 Wait a minute. 23:14.640 --> 23:15.160 You better – 23:15.160 --> 23:16.000 Apple store, et cetera. 23:16.280 --> 23:16.740 You better – 23:16.740 --> 23:19.980 They just want to do their shopping, not bothered by some dude. 23:19.980 --> 23:20.580 Wait, wait. 23:20.640 --> 23:24.920 I think you ought to preface this and explain what this is in response to. 23:24.920 --> 23:35.880 So, if you didn't listen to episode 163 and 164, I think are the two numbers. 23:36.360 --> 23:42.320 My friend, Noholani, came on the show and she started – we had this little segment where 23:42.320 --> 23:50.420 she did, like, dating advice and kind of, like, geek-long thing from the perspective of, you 23:50.420 --> 23:55.160 know, someone who is actually married to a geek and have been, like, dating them for 23:55.160 --> 23:55.520 a while. 23:56.300 --> 24:02.240 So, I asked her, you know, like, what's the best way to approach someone and, like, how 24:02.240 --> 24:04.560 I should – conversation, et cetera, et cetera. 24:05.000 --> 24:06.960 So, this is what Matt is referring to. 24:07.140 --> 24:07.520 Okay. 24:08.500 --> 24:08.860 Okay. 24:09.740 --> 24:10.220 Right. 24:10.340 --> 24:16.800 So, continuing on, he says, second, even if it is so successful to do that, I tend to 24:16.800 --> 24:18.300 be a little twitchy about things. 24:18.400 --> 24:19.180 I might be wrong here. 24:19.360 --> 24:24.760 Is there a way to meet women without having to feign ignorance of whatever? 24:25.280 --> 24:26.700 First is duplicitous. 24:27.180 --> 24:29.120 Second, which is more attractive? 24:29.660 --> 24:30.580 Which is more attractive? 24:30.580 --> 24:35.600 Someone who knows shit or a buffoon wondering how easy Final Cut Pro is to use. 24:35.600 --> 24:38.860 The hard part is to ask questions on an equal footing. 24:39.200 --> 24:41.640 I would ask, hey, I'm thinking of getting this. 24:41.740 --> 24:43.100 Do you have any experience with it? 24:43.440 --> 24:45.660 Is there anything else I should get or need to know? 24:46.080 --> 24:47.800 If it's legit, that's fine. 24:47.860 --> 24:49.260 But if you're faking it, it's blame. 24:49.580 --> 24:50.860 Even my wife thought so. 24:51.300 --> 24:53.140 Now, my solution is radically different. 24:53.540 --> 24:55.700 Just find a hot hacker chick. 24:56.020 --> 24:58.080 We don't have proper picks up yet. 24:58.160 --> 24:59.020 I'm working on it. 24:59.020 --> 25:01.080 Just been busy with other pursuits. 25:01.080 --> 25:05.940 But we were married July 29, 2006. 25:06.460 --> 25:10.840 Yeah, I think we should probably skip the specific URL here or anything. 25:10.960 --> 25:15.140 Just in case, I'm sure he knew that he was sending us the radio address. 25:15.240 --> 25:18.740 But let's play safe and not read the URL to the pictures. 25:19.760 --> 25:20.120 Yeah. 25:20.120 --> 25:28.820 So he posts a URL with photo albums about, I mean, pictures of him and his wife. 25:29.360 --> 25:33.080 He says, I picked her up in the computer lab. 25:33.200 --> 25:36.580 She was a fellow admin at an assistant department in the same college. 25:36.980 --> 25:39.500 So we met, had classes together, et cetera. 25:39.680 --> 25:42.560 At first, she thought I was an asshole, which I am. 25:42.560 --> 25:49.360 But since class is a captive audience, she had to deal with me and realize that I have 25:49.360 --> 25:50.280 redeeming qualities. 25:50.860 --> 25:51.920 So I asked you to dinner. 25:52.060 --> 25:55.440 Long story short, she spent the night, and we've been together ever since. 25:56.000 --> 25:56.320 Aw. 25:56.460 --> 25:57.140 All right. 25:57.600 --> 25:57.920 Aw. 25:57.920 --> 25:59.880 We need, like, some music playing in the background. 26:00.100 --> 26:00.980 Some nice sappy. 26:02.460 --> 26:03.520 I know, right? 26:03.520 --> 26:13.220 So, Matt, well, I almost agree with you with the part that, you know, saying, like, don't 26:13.220 --> 26:19.160 pretend like you don't know anything about something and just, like, start talking to 26:19.160 --> 26:19.400 them. 26:19.920 --> 26:25.780 But I think, you know, one of the main things that Noelani was getting at is you need to 26:25.780 --> 26:28.540 start a conversation somehow. 26:28.540 --> 26:35.520 So if you're in that situation, I mean, you know, it's like, you're not going to be able 26:35.520 --> 26:40.000 to start a conversation by going up to someone and being like, hey, I know about that. 26:40.080 --> 26:44.120 Let me tell you some stuff about that thing, you know, that you're holding. 26:44.940 --> 26:53.580 But, you know, the other thing is that, like, you're not, well, you know, like, if you want 26:53.580 --> 27:00.080 to be 100% truthful all the time, that's cool with me, but, I mean, sometimes you just kind 27:00.080 --> 27:03.600 of have to get the ball rolling, as they say. 27:03.940 --> 27:05.480 But, I mean, whatever works for you. 27:05.520 --> 27:10.440 If you have a wife and I do not, maybe you definitely know, you know, maybe you know more 27:10.440 --> 27:10.940 than I do. 27:11.620 --> 27:17.720 But the other thing I don't really understand your solution is find a hot hacker chick. 27:17.860 --> 27:19.740 I think that's what we're trying to do. 27:19.940 --> 27:20.380 Exactly. 27:21.180 --> 27:21.940 You know? 27:21.940 --> 27:24.400 Like, it's nothing to it. 27:24.440 --> 27:29.780 That's the whole thing, is, and that's my, I agree with what the guy's saying, too, and, 27:30.180 --> 27:34.200 but, I mean, the thing is, I don't think he realized, you, dude, you got lucky. 27:34.200 --> 27:38.600 You met her in a computer lab at college, and you got lucky. 27:38.900 --> 27:42.860 You landed a good one, I guess it sounds like, but what happens when you're not in college 27:42.860 --> 27:47.940 anymore, or there are no hacker chicks in your college or classes? 27:48.980 --> 27:51.600 That's the question, and, and, for me, anyway. 27:51.600 --> 27:52.020 Exactly. 27:53.740 --> 27:54.180 Exactly. 27:54.560 --> 28:00.640 Because, like, you know, a lot of people that, you know, that, well, a lot of people in general 28:00.640 --> 28:05.160 aren't in school, you know, because they're working or whatever, and it's hard to find 28:05.160 --> 28:11.800 someone after the fact, because you don't have, like, you know, specific things that you're 28:11.800 --> 28:15.020 forced to be at with other people that you don't know. 28:15.660 --> 28:16.020 Right. 28:16.220 --> 28:19.100 Well, I think that's the, that's the key here. 28:19.100 --> 28:23.380 And I think he even used the phrase in there, so, I don't remember, I thought he used the 28:23.380 --> 28:26.840 phrase captive audience, which is exactly what he had, and you don't have that if you're 28:26.840 --> 28:32.040 not in a computer lab with this, or in a class where the, yeah, you're with the chicks. 28:32.040 --> 28:37.260 So, I mean, he kind of said that in his email, so I guess he didn't realize exactly how lucky 28:37.260 --> 28:38.660 he really is. 28:38.720 --> 28:39.540 Oh, I'm going to cry. 28:39.800 --> 28:40.980 I'm getting reclipped. 28:42.800 --> 28:45.100 I think you should, I think you should do it on the email. 28:45.100 --> 28:52.740 Okay, okay, okay, okay, I'm going to move on before Spank says something more emo. 28:55.460 --> 29:06.720 Okay, the next email is from Freak, spelled with a P-H, all right, just got to F-165, damn 29:06.720 --> 29:11.420 you and your Mac users don't have a right-click statement, L-O-L. 29:11.420 --> 29:17.900 We have the Uber Mighty Mouse, damn it, no buttons, but now biatch, and then he gives 29:17.900 --> 29:19.500 a link to the Mighty Mouse. 29:20.180 --> 29:24.580 Which is apple.com slash Mighty Mouse, but yeah, I guess I'll take that one since I made 29:24.580 --> 29:25.160 the comment. 29:26.280 --> 29:26.580 Great. 29:27.140 --> 29:31.900 Yeah, I mean, this is typical Apple, this is typical Macintosh, they're going backwards 29:31.900 --> 29:36.680 as usual, instead of finally adding the second button, and actually third, fourth, fifth 29:36.680 --> 29:40.500 buttons that a lot of the new mics have, Apple's taking the buttons away! 29:40.500 --> 29:42.080 Hey, what the hell are they thinking? 29:42.160 --> 29:43.400 They're going the opposite direction! 29:44.420 --> 29:49.720 Actually, I'm joking, it's not, the Mighty Mouse is their new thing where it clicks, but 29:49.720 --> 29:55.000 there's not really an actual visible button that you can see, I don't know if, you've seen, 29:55.060 --> 29:58.160 you know, you've seen the Mighty Mouse before, they're new mice before, right? 29:59.160 --> 30:01.860 Yes, I've used one a lot. 30:02.140 --> 30:02.360 Yeah. 30:02.520 --> 30:02.940 I hate it. 30:03.140 --> 30:07.320 Well, and actually, I'll put you on the spot right now, because we've gone into a lot 30:07.320 --> 30:13.020 of, see, I have this love-hate relationship with Apple, I love OSX, I love the design 30:13.020 --> 30:18.160 of the Apples, especially the PowerBooks, MacBooks, whatever they call them these days, 30:18.500 --> 30:25.020 I love the design, I just hate the proprietary nature of them, and because of that, I subsequently 30:25.020 --> 30:27.460 hate the ridiculous cost of them. 30:28.000 --> 30:32.020 If they were a little bit more reasonably priced, I've been dying to get a Mac, and when the Mac 30:32.020 --> 30:35.640 Minis came out, I was dying to get one, but they overpriced the damn things for what you 30:35.640 --> 30:41.380 get, so, I love Mac, but I hate Mac, so I'm kind of, you know, I'm joking in a lot of the 30:41.380 --> 30:44.580 stuff I say, but I'm going to put you on the spot, I don't think you've ever come out 30:44.580 --> 30:50.160 on the record, and made your feelings, what do you think about Apple and Macintosh, what 30:50.160 --> 30:50.720 do you think about Apple? 30:50.720 --> 30:57.520 I think if you know me, then you know that I'm a Mac user, I'm looking at my PowerBook 30:57.520 --> 31:05.900 right now, I've started using, I mean, I use Apple stuff because of OS X, you know, I never 31:05.900 --> 31:12.880 used it before that, OS 9, everything before, but ever since OS X, I mean, that's why I use 31:12.880 --> 31:19.240 Apple, and, you know, with the cost, I think they're trying, I mean, to be honest, like, 31:19.700 --> 31:26.900 they need to sell boxes, right, like, Apple is a hardware company, and since they don't 31:26.900 --> 31:33.040 have the volume, they have to go with the quality, and the price reflects that, and now, as they 31:33.040 --> 31:41.260 gain more, you know, volume with their laptop sales and their station sales, you know, like 31:41.260 --> 31:46.200 the iMacs and stuff, too, they're going in the right direction, I think, like, the MacBook 31:46.200 --> 31:52.780 is what, you can go and get one for, like, $1,300, I mean, that's not that bad, like, that's 31:52.780 --> 31:58.000 definitely much lower than what you could have gotten them before, right? 31:58.000 --> 32:03.160 Yeah, but if you compare that to what you could get for $1,300 in the PC world, you could get 32:03.160 --> 32:04.820 a top-of-the-line system. 32:04.820 --> 32:13.240 Right, but the problem is, you're, see, like, for me, I'm paying for the software, and, 32:13.240 --> 32:18.300 like, the, not the privilege, but, like, I'm paying for the capability of running all 32:18.300 --> 32:26.700 it in on a box, like, if I buy a, if I buy, you know, some box, actually, I just bought a 32:26.700 --> 32:34.840 new workstation for $1,300, like, you know, it's, like, some crazy AMD, whatever, dual-core 32:34.840 --> 32:35.260 crap. 32:35.700 --> 32:36.680 What do you mean, crap? 32:37.460 --> 32:38.860 What do you mean, dual-core crap? 32:39.180 --> 32:39.480 What? 32:39.620 --> 32:41.080 What do you mean, dual-core crap? 32:42.540 --> 32:43.640 Well, you know. 32:43.820 --> 32:44.440 It's badass. 32:45.720 --> 32:51.120 No, it is badass, but the thing is, right now, all I'm doing, not all I'm doing, but, 32:51.120 --> 32:56.720 like, I'm not, you know, I'm using the CPU to do stuff, generate rainbow tables, and, 32:56.840 --> 33:03.600 like, download media files, and, like, do all this junk, but it's not a desktop system. 33:04.080 --> 33:05.020 It's a workhorse. 33:05.800 --> 33:13.500 Like, I don't want to use GNOME or PD or Flexbox or anything else. 33:13.500 --> 33:21.580 Like, I've messed with, you know, the BSTs, Linux, and Windows for, like, my GUI desktop, 33:21.820 --> 33:23.100 and I can't deal with it. 33:23.860 --> 33:30.900 You know, like, OS X gives me the best combination of usability and power that I can get out of 33:30.900 --> 33:31.460 any OS. 33:31.680 --> 33:37.640 And I do like, I do like my limited experience with OS X, but actually, that poses another 33:37.640 --> 33:37.920 question. 33:38.060 --> 33:42.900 It's funny this came up, because I had kind of this conversation with a couple friends 33:42.900 --> 33:43.980 earlier this week. 33:44.660 --> 33:50.200 What exactly is, see, Apple, we know Microsoft is in the business of software. 33:50.340 --> 33:54.640 They're selling operating systems and Office and packages, server, software, etc. 33:55.180 --> 33:56.840 They're not in the hardware business. 33:57.560 --> 34:00.980 Dell is clearly in the hardware business, but not in the software business. 34:01.640 --> 34:03.860 Apple doesn't know what the fuck they want. 34:03.940 --> 34:06.280 They're trying to double dip out of every bucket. 34:06.460 --> 34:08.980 They're trying to, triple dip if you really want to get down to it. 34:08.980 --> 34:14.040 They're making money on software, making money on hardware, and now on intellectual property 34:14.040 --> 34:17.660 with iTunes and buying the software and trying to get their hand out and get a cut of that 34:17.660 --> 34:18.160 as well. 34:18.920 --> 34:20.980 I just really think that if they focus... 34:20.980 --> 34:27.920 Dude, iTunes and, like, their whole iPod thing, that's the, like, media section. 34:28.260 --> 34:29.400 So, like, that's separate. 34:30.100 --> 34:30.960 Oh, it's Apple. 34:31.120 --> 34:35.780 With the software and hardware, I mean, Apple has always been a hardware company, and they 34:35.780 --> 34:39.980 sell their hardware by writing good software, I mean, they don't really make money off 34:39.980 --> 34:40.460 the software. 34:40.780 --> 34:45.580 Like, you can buy a new version of OS X for, like, $100. 34:46.000 --> 34:46.560 Same as Windows. 34:46.560 --> 34:47.660 For, like, $150 or whatever. 34:47.880 --> 34:48.360 Same as Windows. 34:48.360 --> 34:53.860 You know, that's nothing compared to how much Vista is going to cost, you know? 34:53.980 --> 34:54.840 What are you talking about? 34:54.920 --> 34:55.840 Vista's going to be $100. 34:56.140 --> 34:56.500 It's going to... 34:56.500 --> 35:00.260 Actually, they have low-end versions that are going to be, like, $59, $79, something like 35:00.260 --> 35:00.560 that. 35:01.400 --> 35:02.160 Wait, is that true? 35:02.300 --> 35:02.740 Because... 35:02.740 --> 35:03.960 There's, like, five different ones. 35:03.980 --> 35:05.620 It's going to be, like, $300 at least. 35:05.800 --> 35:06.660 But I could just be wrong. 35:06.780 --> 35:07.820 Oh, no, no, no, no. 35:07.840 --> 35:08.480 It's definitely... 35:08.480 --> 35:11.840 No, there's, like, five or six or seven, maybe, different versions. 35:12.420 --> 35:14.700 They're going to have a lower-end version for home users. 35:15.040 --> 35:16.680 It'll have limited functionality. 35:16.960 --> 35:17.240 And I... 35:17.240 --> 35:17.660 Wait a minute. 35:17.680 --> 35:18.360 Don't get me wrong here. 35:18.360 --> 35:22.700 I'm not defending Microsoft, exactly, for stripping stuff out and selling it cheaper. 35:23.300 --> 35:27.780 Although, to a certain extent, I do like that idea because you pay for what you use. 35:28.060 --> 35:30.880 You shouldn't have to buy a whole lot of stuff you might not use. 35:31.580 --> 35:33.440 Now, that's not to justify or deny. 35:33.440 --> 35:35.640 I'm just saying that they are equivalent as far as that goes. 35:35.840 --> 35:36.440 Let me ask you this. 35:36.480 --> 35:38.420 Do you think Apple... 35:38.420 --> 35:40.480 Do you think if they... 35:40.480 --> 35:41.400 How do I phrase this? 35:41.440 --> 35:46.560 Do you think if Apple started focusing on selling OSX that ran on x86 architecture or the Intel 35:46.560 --> 35:51.380 architecture, which they could now since they're switching to Intel processors, do you think 35:51.380 --> 35:55.320 if they started selling OSX that I could install on my Dell, for example, that they'd make 35:55.320 --> 35:56.800 money selling the operating system? 35:56.880 --> 35:57.680 Do you think they could be... 35:57.680 --> 35:58.000 No. 35:58.260 --> 35:59.780 They will never do that. 35:59.880 --> 36:00.380 Well, okay. 36:00.560 --> 36:01.680 I didn't say will they. 36:01.800 --> 36:02.380 I said do you think they could. 36:02.380 --> 36:04.880 They will not do that in the foreseeable future. 36:05.660 --> 36:09.840 I mean, OSX currently runs on Intel processors. 36:09.840 --> 36:13.820 I mean, I'm running it right now, right? 36:14.460 --> 36:18.500 And, you know, like I said before, Apple's a hardware company. 36:18.680 --> 36:21.160 They need to sell boxes to make money. 36:21.380 --> 36:22.460 They don't sell software. 36:23.620 --> 36:29.660 And, you know, Apple has always been very, well, good or bad, depending on which side 36:29.660 --> 36:35.260 you're on, about keeping OSX running on Apple hardware only. 36:35.260 --> 36:39.340 Like, for a while, they had those, like, clones or whatever. 36:39.520 --> 36:44.540 I mean, it was too far back for me to actually remember because I didn't actually use OSX, 36:44.660 --> 36:46.900 use Apple stuff then, Macintoshes. 36:47.400 --> 36:53.540 But, you know, people try to do that and, you know, Apple came down on them with righteous 36:53.540 --> 36:58.120 theory because Apple, you know, they need to sell their hardware. 36:58.120 --> 37:04.740 And if you can run OSX on Dell boxes, then, to be honest, no one's really going to buy 37:04.740 --> 37:11.120 Apple boxes because while they look good and, you know, and it's cool and shiny, but, 37:11.220 --> 37:15.520 like, if you can spend $1,000 by buying a Dell box instead and running the same software, 37:15.620 --> 37:17.680 I think a lot of people would have to do that instead. 37:17.680 --> 37:19.440 I don't know. 37:20.340 --> 37:21.700 I'm just thinking out loud. 37:21.800 --> 37:22.960 Obviously, it's just my opinion. 37:23.120 --> 37:28.680 But I think that people would still buy Dell hardware, or excuse me, would still buy Apple 37:28.680 --> 37:33.980 hardware and OSX for the simple fact that, yes, you're buying it, I guess, bundled, for 37:33.980 --> 37:34.860 lack of a better word. 37:34.980 --> 37:35.980 You would get it supported. 37:36.640 --> 37:39.860 You know, guaranteed that it's going to run because it is their hardware. 37:40.320 --> 37:41.980 But I still don't see why. 37:42.440 --> 37:44.160 And, again, maybe I'm just being naive. 37:44.260 --> 37:44.940 I'll admit that. 37:44.940 --> 37:50.020 If they would sell OSX that I can install on my Dell and they don't, even if they didn't 37:50.020 --> 37:55.860 support it or it's in whatever with the hardware, just make it available that I could buy it 37:55.860 --> 38:00.860 and run it on a different box, I think they wouldn't really hurt so much their hardware 38:00.860 --> 38:01.200 sales. 38:01.300 --> 38:06.320 If anything, I think they would increase their software sales that would more than offset 38:06.320 --> 38:09.080 any of their hardware losses. 38:09.280 --> 38:12.700 I mean, they're in such a small market share now that I think the dividends would be more. 38:12.700 --> 38:15.160 But, I mean, that's just a business opinion. 38:15.560 --> 38:22.760 Secondly, I mean, anybody who's taken basic economics knows that, you know, the change 38:22.760 --> 38:28.240 in price is going to increase or decrease the demand, the quantity demanded. 38:28.360 --> 38:29.900 I mean, you're going to have a direct relationship. 38:30.460 --> 38:32.740 When you lower the price, people are going to want more of them. 38:32.800 --> 38:34.440 And when you raise the price, people aren't. 38:34.440 --> 38:38.880 And I just don't think they have that ratio to where – they're fine. 38:38.960 --> 38:39.460 They're stable. 38:39.580 --> 38:43.560 They'll sit there and hold on to that 3% market share or 4% or whatever it is, maybe 38:43.560 --> 38:46.540 even 5%, not counting the iPods. 38:47.320 --> 38:48.640 And that's fine. 38:48.680 --> 38:49.680 They'll be stable like that. 38:49.700 --> 38:53.740 But I'm just thinking there's a huge opportunity, in my opinion, that they could grow. 38:53.860 --> 38:55.300 And I just – I don't know. 38:55.300 --> 38:59.080 Now, the other thing that frustrates me is now that they're on Intel architecture, that 38:59.080 --> 39:02.680 they're running – you're using an Intel processor soon, they're cheaper for them 39:02.680 --> 39:04.420 to make, cheaper for them to manufacture. 39:04.600 --> 39:07.180 How do they justify not lowering the price by $100 or $200? 39:08.220 --> 39:08.660 What? 39:08.780 --> 39:09.800 They are lowering the price. 39:09.840 --> 39:10.740 What are you talking about? 39:10.820 --> 39:11.740 Oh, you're crazy. 39:11.920 --> 39:13.000 Still make the comparison. 39:13.240 --> 39:15.120 Still make the comparison to what you would get. 39:15.460 --> 39:16.880 It's not even – no, they didn't. 39:16.880 --> 39:21.840 They dropped it a little tiny bit, but not enough to make it compatible – not enough 39:21.840 --> 39:22.780 to make it worthwhile. 39:24.960 --> 39:27.220 In my opinion, obviously. 39:27.480 --> 39:31.000 So I guess we'll lay that to bed for this episode. 39:31.460 --> 39:31.860 Yes. 39:32.300 --> 39:34.340 We can talk about this for four days. 39:34.640 --> 39:35.300 Yeah, exactly. 39:36.080 --> 39:36.360 Exactly. 39:36.680 --> 39:42.280 We've got about, what, like 40-some minutes maybe to jump into our main – I don't want 39:42.280 --> 39:42.860 to push it along. 39:42.920 --> 39:44.000 Are we done with email or no? 39:44.360 --> 39:46.020 Yes, we are done with email. 39:46.020 --> 39:46.380 Okay. 39:46.920 --> 39:49.660 Let's do the main show topic. 39:50.000 --> 39:50.480 All right. 39:50.600 --> 39:56.400 And actually, before we do, if I may, I kind of have a follow-up question. 39:56.580 --> 40:01.240 I wanted to cover this on our last episode, so I'll kind of – I'll just pose it as a 40:01.240 --> 40:04.380 question now because I think it's kind of related to this show as well. 40:04.860 --> 40:10.980 The last episode that you and I did anyway, which was what, 163, we talked about tunneling 40:10.980 --> 40:15.160 and VPNs and tunneling in general, the concepts of tunneling, what it is, how it is. 40:15.160 --> 40:21.360 Now, I can't help but think and get confused sometimes, the difference between tunneling 40:21.360 --> 40:27.080 and covert channels because I heard that buzzword or that term thrown around a lot at DEFCON 40:27.080 --> 40:27.540 recently. 40:27.540 --> 40:32.760 And I know what covert channels is, but I thought it might be helpful to differentiate for the 40:32.760 --> 40:37.360 audience, and myself as well, kind of the difference between the two because they – are 40:37.360 --> 40:39.900 they somewhat – aren't they pretty closely related or no? 40:40.900 --> 40:42.040 No, not really. 40:42.180 --> 40:42.780 No, okay. 40:43.020 --> 40:43.960 Explain covert channels. 40:43.960 --> 40:47.120 So let me talk a little bit about that. 40:48.040 --> 40:54.400 So tunneling, we did before, it's kind of like – so tunneling is a trick you play with 40:54.400 --> 40:55.860 the headers, right? 40:56.000 --> 41:03.560 You don't really have anything to do with the information inside. 41:03.560 --> 41:08.440 You're kind of just – okay, I'm trying not to use the word tunnel, but you're trying 41:08.440 --> 41:18.140 to pose a packet as another type to send over a different channel that is out of band from 41:18.140 --> 41:23.460 what you want to – from the channel you want to communicate, you know, because for whatever 41:23.460 --> 41:25.300 reason that we talked about before. 41:25.840 --> 41:25.900 Right. 41:25.900 --> 41:29.400 But now covert channel is more like information hiding. 41:30.440 --> 41:32.620 So you're referring to – thanks. 41:32.720 --> 41:39.460 So you're referring to the talk that someone gave at DEFCON recently about doing covert channels 41:39.460 --> 41:40.520 on IPv6, right? 41:41.220 --> 41:45.020 Well, it was actually – it was in several places in several different presentations, but 41:45.020 --> 41:48.100 that's definitely one that I – you and I sat in on that, didn't we? 41:49.100 --> 41:50.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 41:50.120 --> 41:51.400 Yeah, that was definitely one of them. 41:51.460 --> 41:55.560 And actually, that's kind of why I guess I had it in my head that it's somewhat related 41:55.560 --> 41:55.740 here. 41:55.780 --> 41:59.760 It's a good topic because we're going to go into some IPv6 stuff later. 42:00.180 --> 42:02.080 So, yeah, that's a good – 42:02.080 --> 42:02.100 All right. 42:02.100 --> 42:07.700 So, so for covert channel, like, it's all really about information theory. 42:08.320 --> 42:12.980 If you don't know what information theory is, it's kind of – it's a branch of mathematics 42:12.980 --> 42:22.840 that deals with, like, information and how it is sent and, like, how it looks and other 42:22.840 --> 42:23.860 stuff. 42:23.860 --> 42:33.120 So, Alan Turing was actually one of the people who kind of did this during the war a lot. 42:33.380 --> 42:36.760 And, you know, he kind of made the feel, actually – there are some other important 42:36.760 --> 42:39.080 names in there, but I don't really care. 42:41.340 --> 42:41.860 Yeah. 42:42.120 --> 42:42.660 That's okay. 42:42.660 --> 42:44.980 So, basically, the deal is this. 42:45.940 --> 42:49.600 You have some channel of communication. 42:49.920 --> 42:56.800 Let's say you take, I don't know, all the calls that, like, people make to each other 42:56.800 --> 43:04.420 in an area and then you do something like, I don't know how long they are, and then you 43:04.420 --> 43:06.840 graph it, like, against time or something. 43:06.840 --> 43:13.260 So, what you'll end up with probably is, like, a bell curve, which is, like, basically most 43:13.260 --> 43:19.360 of the people make, you know, make calls of a certain duration, like, a minute or two 43:19.360 --> 43:20.140 minutes or something. 43:20.140 --> 43:25.600 And then, like, you'll get, like, a tapering off where, like, a few people would make 43:25.600 --> 43:31.660 calls of a second or two minutes or two minutes, but I don't know, probably some bad number or 43:31.660 --> 43:32.040 whatever. 43:32.300 --> 43:32.520 Okay. 43:32.580 --> 43:32.860 Hold on. 43:32.900 --> 43:33.160 Hold on. 43:33.180 --> 43:33.480 Hold on. 43:33.580 --> 43:34.780 You broke up really bad there. 43:34.780 --> 43:39.400 You were saying that some people might make a lot of calls that are two minutes, but it 43:39.400 --> 43:41.060 tapers off for longer? 43:41.300 --> 43:42.280 You broke up right there. 43:42.940 --> 43:43.340 Okay. 43:43.420 --> 43:43.720 Sorry. 43:43.720 --> 43:52.020 So, what I'm saying is if you have a graph of all the people that make phone calls in a 43:52.020 --> 43:57.020 certain area and you graph it according to, like, the time versus the duration or something, 43:57.100 --> 44:02.880 like, the time at which they made them and how long the call was, then you would probably 44:02.880 --> 44:03.760 have a bell curve. 44:03.760 --> 44:10.700 So, a bell curve means that in the middle you have a lot of people concentrated and then 44:10.700 --> 44:17.580 as you move towards, like, the end of the graph in either direction, it tapers off and 44:17.580 --> 44:18.660 there are less and less people. 44:19.580 --> 44:24.700 So, what that means, for my example, is that you have a lot of people making calls that last, 44:24.800 --> 44:27.800 like, some duration of time, like, let's say one or two minutes. 44:27.800 --> 44:34.260 Then you have, you know, as, like, your time, the duration of the call is, like, higher. 44:34.260 --> 44:37.540 So, you have less and less people making calls that duration. 44:38.160 --> 44:42.480 So, it could be, like, only a few people making calls that will be, you know, 10 to 20 minutes 44:42.480 --> 44:48.440 or, like, a few people making calls that will, like, you know, two to four seconds or something. 44:48.880 --> 44:48.980 Right? 44:49.080 --> 44:49.160 Right. 44:49.240 --> 44:51.660 On each extreme end of the curve is what you're saying. 44:51.720 --> 44:54.100 The extreme ends of low and the extreme ends of high. 44:54.960 --> 44:55.280 Right. 44:55.460 --> 44:55.880 Yeah, okay. 44:55.880 --> 45:03.200 So, that is kind of, like, you know, that's information theory stuff is you kind of look 45:03.200 --> 45:11.100 at how information about, like, nature and how all that stuff is analyzed and, like, what 45:11.100 --> 45:11.900 you expect to see. 45:12.340 --> 45:20.120 So, covert channels are basically hiding information in kind of the sea of information that's already 45:20.120 --> 45:20.600 out there. 45:20.600 --> 45:25.780 So, I mean, like, you can imagine that was very useful during the war and stuff where 45:25.780 --> 45:31.380 they had, you know, they wanted to transmit messages about, like, killing pirates and sinking 45:31.380 --> 45:37.620 ships or whatever, like, while, you know, so the other side doesn't, you know, know that 45:37.620 --> 45:38.780 they're sending information. 45:39.560 --> 45:45.160 But, now, in this day and age, what we're doing with covert channels is hiding information 45:45.160 --> 45:49.920 in what appears to be legitimate data. 45:49.920 --> 45:57.420 Now, in the, you know, so let's say we had that example with the curve, right, with the 45:57.420 --> 45:57.940 bell curve. 45:58.380 --> 46:06.640 Now, if it were some other kind of traffic, like IP traffic or whatever, you have some 46:06.640 --> 46:14.000 sort of distribution that when you look at it, you're like, okay, this is, this looks 46:14.000 --> 46:16.520 like legitimate traffic. 46:17.180 --> 46:21.880 Like, you know, because you know, like, let's say it's what we were talking about with the 46:21.880 --> 46:22.400 phone calls. 46:22.560 --> 46:24.560 So, you know it's supposed to look like a bell curve. 46:24.960 --> 46:31.260 So, say at some point, someone is doing something weird and they're trying to send extra information 46:31.260 --> 46:35.780 and they're, like, making a lot of phone calls that last a long time, right? 46:35.780 --> 46:41.160 So, then, if you plot that graph again, then you won't get a nice, smooth curve. 46:41.460 --> 46:44.640 You'll get a curve and then, like, bump somewhere. 46:45.360 --> 46:51.520 And if you do that, then what that's going to do is, you know, alert someone that you're 46:51.520 --> 46:53.560 sending something that you're not supposed to. 46:53.560 --> 47:00.080 So, in that case, you have to use, you know, some sort of, if you want to use some sort 47:00.080 --> 47:04.740 of covert channel, you have to do something mathematically to get the curve to look the 47:04.740 --> 47:04.960 same. 47:05.500 --> 47:11.300 Now, this curve really relates to, in real life, like, you know, posing your actual 47:11.300 --> 47:17.680 legitimate traffic, I mean, posing your illegitimate traffic into something that's 47:17.680 --> 47:18.080 legitimate. 47:19.080 --> 47:23.140 So, let's, you know, one example of this application is steganography. 47:23.560 --> 47:28.440 Now, steganography is hiding information in pictures. 47:29.200 --> 47:34.420 So, that, you know, like, Stank, you were asking me before, how does this relate to covert 47:34.420 --> 47:35.820 channels and stuff, right? 47:36.040 --> 47:36.400 Right. 47:36.480 --> 47:40.740 But, the thing is, let's say I send you a picture, right? 47:41.300 --> 47:45.780 And you, and if someone intercepts that, it just looks like a picture. 47:46.180 --> 47:52.300 Now, unless they do a lot of, you know, tweaking and, like, looking at the bits, they're not 47:52.300 --> 47:56.340 going to know that I've hid a message in the picture. 47:57.820 --> 47:57.980 Right. 47:58.940 --> 47:59.380 Right. 47:59.480 --> 48:05.160 So, in steganography, you end up hiding your information in, like, the high order bits, 48:05.260 --> 48:07.720 I think, or the lower order bits, one of those. 48:07.720 --> 48:14.700 And the change to that image file is not perceivable by the human eye. 48:15.260 --> 48:20.780 So, what happens is if the receiver knows that the image has a special, you know, encoding 48:20.780 --> 48:25.480 in it, so it has some message, then he or she can extract it. 48:25.480 --> 48:30.240 But, now, that relates to, you know, a bunch of other stuff, too. 48:30.800 --> 48:33.140 So, you can do that in everything. 48:33.480 --> 48:37.780 But, mostly, if you're talking about, like, networks and sending, like, traffic on the 48:37.780 --> 48:43.860 internet, et cetera, you're talking about probably hiding information in packets, right? 48:44.540 --> 48:44.840 Right. 48:44.840 --> 48:52.260 So, what you can do is, so you look at a packet, and some legitimate packet, let's say some IP 48:52.260 --> 49:00.900 packet doing HTTP or something, to make a covert channel out of that packet, what you need to 49:00.900 --> 49:11.620 do is modify the contents of that packet without making it seem like you did, which sounds kind 49:11.620 --> 49:19.980 of weird, but, you know, there are a lot of places in the IP packets that you can add stuff. 49:20.840 --> 49:30.140 So, for example, if you have, like, the IPv4 header, you have the type of service bits that's used for, like, 49:30.140 --> 49:32.380 QWAS and all of that stuff. 49:32.680 --> 49:35.460 QWAS is quality of service. 49:36.740 --> 49:40.000 But, most routers today don't use them. 49:40.000 --> 49:45.580 So, if you have a packet, and it goes through, it just ignores the TOS bits. 49:46.380 --> 49:48.460 And, that's, like, three bits, I think, or something. 49:49.000 --> 49:52.840 And, that's, you know, that's, like, one place you can put your information. 49:53.280 --> 50:01.800 Now, either side has to know that you're sending, you know, your information in the TOS bits. 50:02.280 --> 50:02.760 Right. 50:02.760 --> 50:03.960 But, right. 50:04.180 --> 50:06.200 So, I mean, all that is predetermined. 50:06.340 --> 50:06.640 Isn't QWAS... 50:06.640 --> 50:11.240 I mean, there are all these places that you can hide things, and it would look as though 50:11.240 --> 50:16.160 it was a legitimate packet to someone who's just, like, passively monitoring traffic. 50:16.400 --> 50:17.040 Right, right. 50:17.100 --> 50:18.020 I get what you're saying. 50:18.080 --> 50:18.780 I think it's clear. 50:18.780 --> 50:21.480 But, now, but is QWAS the best example? 50:21.640 --> 50:26.300 Because, I thought QWAS is actually still very much used, especially in the age of VoIP. 50:26.420 --> 50:30.020 Isn't that what a lot of cable companies that are offering VoIP phones, that's how they're 50:30.020 --> 50:35.080 guaranteeing bandwidth, is because they are prioritizing those packets with the QWAS bit. 50:35.360 --> 50:37.360 And, I thought that was still very much in use. 50:37.420 --> 50:38.780 I don't know if... 50:38.780 --> 50:39.160 I mean, there's... 50:39.160 --> 50:41.460 I don't, like, I... 50:41.460 --> 50:46.220 Well, I mean, I know what you're saying, but I don't think that's true for some reason. 50:46.220 --> 50:52.420 Like, a lot of people, well, I mean, not people, but a lot of routers just ignore those 50:52.420 --> 50:54.780 pits, because they don't use them. 50:55.140 --> 51:01.560 I mean, things could be changing because of, like you said, the book stuff, but I don't 51:01.560 --> 51:05.040 think that's true, but I could be wrong. 51:05.320 --> 51:08.660 Well, actually, and you've already opened up, actually, we should probably segue into the 51:08.660 --> 51:14.800 main topic, I would think, now, as time keeps on running here, but I think that, basically, 51:14.800 --> 51:19.680 if I can oversimplify this, it sounds like, basically, the difference between tunneling 51:19.680 --> 51:25.020 is that you're redirecting packets, whereas with covert channels, you're actually injecting 51:25.020 --> 51:32.480 extra data in packets, with the goal of sending that data quietly, covertly, secretly, to another 51:32.480 --> 51:36.760 destination, someone else, to yourself, another server you've got somewhere, or whatever. 51:36.820 --> 51:41.980 You're actually injecting extra data into your packets instead of simply redirecting or 51:41.980 --> 51:44.160 changing the types of packets that you're sending. 51:45.800 --> 51:46.300 Is that good? 51:46.380 --> 51:47.560 Yeah, that's a good summary. 51:47.900 --> 51:48.140 Okay. 51:49.140 --> 51:49.420 All right. 51:49.420 --> 51:51.420 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that sounds about right. 51:52.300 --> 51:57.700 All right, well, that's, that's, um, they're kind of, sort of, similar, but not. 51:57.880 --> 52:04.460 I guess they're only similar in that they both are, deal with details in, with the packet 52:04.460 --> 52:07.700 itself, and how the packet is formed and directed and stuff. 52:07.700 --> 52:12.140 So I guess that's where, I guess I sometimes get the two related, even though they're not. 52:12.220 --> 52:16.520 But I still don't know that steganography is, I kind of see the same thing, you're hiding 52:16.520 --> 52:23.000 data, but, I don't know, one's, one's transport and one's a, a file application. 52:23.180 --> 52:24.260 Yeah, they feel a little bit different. 52:24.260 --> 52:25.840 Well, I mean, you can hide data anywhere. 52:26.200 --> 52:27.140 Yeah, they work the same way. 52:27.140 --> 52:29.960 It doesn't have, covert channels doesn't even have to be over the network. 52:30.540 --> 52:36.060 Like, uh, if, if you're on some system, um, that's like, you know, some military system 52:36.060 --> 52:40.980 or whatever that uses access control lists or whatever, then you, you can, you know, let's 52:40.980 --> 52:46.380 say me and you, right, have access to that system, but you're like a general and I'm like 52:46.380 --> 52:48.460 some, some janitor, right? 52:48.460 --> 52:55.840 Then we can have a covert channel that, that between us to leak, like for you to leak top 52:55.840 --> 53:00.680 secret information to me without, you know, me actually know, without the other people 53:00.680 --> 53:01.520 actually knowing it. 53:01.520 --> 53:08.020 Like, for example, we, we can have some pre-agree thing where it's like, okay, uh, if I like, 53:08.220 --> 53:13.940 you know, write, write some memory to some obscure section in, in, you know, not obscure 53:13.940 --> 53:19.420 section, but like some predefined section in my RAM, in, in the system's RAM, then like, 53:19.500 --> 53:21.220 you know, that stands for something. 53:21.340 --> 53:23.040 So like, it's not just networking. 53:23.380 --> 53:24.060 Right, right, right, right. 53:24.060 --> 53:27.280 It's, you know, also, um, in OS's and everything. 53:27.620 --> 53:28.500 Yeah, absolutely. 53:28.640 --> 53:29.280 I, I got you. 53:29.320 --> 53:29.940 I, I see it. 53:29.980 --> 53:32.520 It's, um, it's not necessarily networking. 53:32.640 --> 53:33.500 It can be anywhere. 53:33.500 --> 53:36.860 It's the same principle being applied in different places. 53:36.960 --> 53:37.440 I got you. 53:39.540 --> 53:42.060 Okay, so let's go to the main topic then. 53:42.060 --> 53:48.080 And since now we have this covered, um, tonight's main topic is going to be about 53:48.080 --> 53:50.100 IPv4 versus V6. 53:50.440 --> 53:57.040 Now, I know that's been done a ton of times, but the thing I want to kind of emphasize 53:57.040 --> 54:05.560 on is not so much me or Stang saying, like, V4 is better or V6 is better, but more like 54:05.560 --> 54:12.040 tell, tell the viewers the differences, the key differences between the two and kind 54:12.040 --> 54:12.980 of letting them decide. 54:13.120 --> 54:17.460 Because to be honest, I don't really have an opinion 100%. 54:17.460 --> 54:21.840 Like, I, I lean toward one, but that's just me. 54:22.320 --> 54:28.220 And I think it's better if you get, you know, the information yourself and decide for yourself. 54:28.440 --> 54:28.880 Well, and. 54:28.880 --> 54:33.060 Because I, because I see, the thing is, I, I see a lot of people, like, they'll read 54:33.060 --> 54:36.840 an article or someone will tell them that, like, oh, V6 is better because there's more 54:36.840 --> 54:37.180 addresses. 54:37.980 --> 54:40.740 Or, like, V6 is more secure or something like that. 54:40.980 --> 54:41.380 Right. 54:41.540 --> 54:45.440 And, like, they'll, they'll just go with that and, then spread that around. 54:46.000 --> 54:49.900 And, you know, without actually understanding why or whether it's true at all. 54:49.900 --> 54:54.860 Yeah, and, and actually, I guess we're going to have to rush this into 20 minutes, I think. 54:55.160 --> 54:59.200 But, um, maybe, I don't know, would it be better? 54:59.500 --> 55:05.640 Can I start, like, with a little quick, like, a very quick discussion of IPv4 as it is now? 55:06.100 --> 55:11.320 Now meaning the most predominant, you know, IPv4, which has been around for a while. 55:12.400 --> 55:15.140 Um, gosh, how can I do this quickly? 55:15.140 --> 55:20.960 All right, I, I, I'll tell you what, first of all, go back and listen to IPv, or excuse 55:20.960 --> 55:27.600 me, go back and listen to episode 164, I think we did this, right? 55:28.480 --> 55:28.760 Yeah. 55:28.840 --> 55:33.080 I think, um, where we talked about the relationship between TCP and IP. 55:34.000 --> 55:39.380 Because everybody talks about TCP slash IP like it's one big thing, but there is a distinction 55:39.380 --> 55:40.660 between the two of them. 55:40.660 --> 55:46.660 Um, and I think it would take too much time to go into it again or recap it, but the long 55:46.660 --> 55:51.660 and short of it is that the internet, the IP is the internet protocol, and the TCP, the 55:51.660 --> 55:54.240 transfer control protocol, do two different things. 55:54.320 --> 55:59.200 They certainly work cooperatively, but it's that, it's the IP part that we're really going 55:59.200 --> 56:02.740 to focus on, thus IPv4, IPv6, right? 56:03.740 --> 56:04.140 Yeah. 56:04.140 --> 56:12.580 Well, IP addresses and IPv4, okay, let's, basically that's what we all know and are used 56:12.580 --> 56:14.160 to and have been used to for years. 56:14.300 --> 56:19.780 That's those four nodes, those, you know, number, dot, number, dot, number, dot, number addresses 56:19.780 --> 56:20.840 that we all see. 56:21.820 --> 56:23.720 And that's IPv4 in action. 56:23.720 --> 56:28.920 And that's used for addressing, of knowing where servers are, how to get to them, how 56:28.920 --> 56:35.120 to route to them as they're handed over these, these switches, this backbone that forms the 56:35.120 --> 56:36.680 global interweb as we know it. 56:37.680 --> 56:43.840 Um, and I guess I'll briefly kind of mention, too, the different classes of addresses because 56:43.840 --> 56:47.420 that's very much how the routing takes place. 56:47.420 --> 56:52.160 It's, it's kind of like, I always use this, this metaphor and verbal, I don't know if you 56:52.160 --> 56:56.340 can chastise me if this is a bad metaphor, but I always use the metaphor of a phone number, 56:57.060 --> 57:01.620 the way area codes work, and a phone number, if I'm explaining this to, to non-techies, 57:01.680 --> 57:06.340 I'll talk about, you know, that's why different states, different cities, different, even regions 57:06.340 --> 57:10.840 within big cities like New York have different area codes, so that the phone system knows how 57:10.840 --> 57:11.820 to route your call. 57:11.820 --> 57:17.520 So that if I make a call from here to, um, I don't know, 212 in New York or, or whatever, 57:18.120 --> 57:22.920 uh, 305 Miami or whatever, the phone company is going to know from those first couple of 57:22.920 --> 57:26.700 numbers how to direct my phone call to the person on the other end. 57:27.100 --> 57:31.160 And I always make that comparison to the same way IP addresses work. 57:31.280 --> 57:32.380 Do you think that's a good metaphor? 57:33.960 --> 57:41.600 Um, I, I, well, okay, so if you talk, so when you talk about IP, uh, address classes, 57:41.600 --> 57:47.220 if you're just going with, like, the regular Class A, Class B, Class C, Class C address 57:47.220 --> 57:51.620 family, then the area code metaphor kind of works. 57:52.040 --> 57:52.220 Right. 57:52.240 --> 57:55.740 But, you know, like, like all metaphors, it kind of breaks down at some point. 57:55.780 --> 57:56.020 Right. 57:56.020 --> 58:00.460 You just have to know when it stops working as a metaphor, and, you know, 58:00.860 --> 58:01.320 Right, right, right. 58:01.320 --> 58:02.600 You have to understand what's actually going on. 58:02.600 --> 58:05.200 Yeah, it's, it's definitely not regional, that's for sure. 58:05.280 --> 58:09.580 So that doesn't, you know, like area codes are somewhat regionable, reason, uh, regional 58:09.580 --> 58:13.200 for the most part, although VoIP blurs those lines again, but that's a different topic. 58:13.680 --> 58:18.420 But as far as the classes of addresses, you know, Class A address being that first node, 58:18.420 --> 58:23.600 and let's say, for example, I don't know, 240, I don't even know who owns that or whatever, 58:23.600 --> 58:32.960 but anything that's 240.x.x.x is a Class A address that is assigned to a certain company, 58:33.920 --> 58:40.120 usually the big telcos, the big backbone providers, that then are allowed to distribute addresses 58:40.120 --> 58:40.980 within that. 58:42.100 --> 58:45.160 Uh, so let's, I'm going to make up an example. 58:45.300 --> 58:47.080 This is not a real example. 58:47.160 --> 58:47.680 I'm making it up. 58:47.680 --> 58:53.680 But let's pretend, uh, 240, uh, Class A address is assigned to, um, I don't know, Bell 58:53.680 --> 58:55.200 South, for example. 58:55.880 --> 59:00.460 Bell South serving a large number of clients, whether they be business clients or, or home 59:00.460 --> 59:05.820 users on DSL or whatever, can assign and break that 240 down to whatever they want. 59:05.820 --> 59:11.060 And they may subsequently break that down and say, okay, well, we're doing business with 59:11.060 --> 59:15.820 this large local ISP, and we own everything that's 240.whatever. 59:15.820 --> 59:23.900 So they may say, we're going to sell you, or assign you 240.1.x.x, and sublet that down 59:23.900 --> 59:25.020 to a smaller company. 59:25.780 --> 59:29.740 Um, normally a company is not going to get a Class B address either. 59:29.860 --> 59:36.020 Class C maybe, possibly for larger companies, but generally A's and B's are reserved for the 59:36.020 --> 59:38.100 large companies to then distribute out. 59:38.100 --> 59:46.060 So, understanding the, the Class A address, Class B, the, basically the Class A is the 59:46.060 --> 59:56.220 largest, anything under 240.x, you can imagine that goes from 240.1.x.x to 240.255.x.x. 59:56.220 --> 59:59.160 So, you've got 255 to the third power. 59:59.240 --> 01:00:01.900 That's a lot of fucking addresses in a Class A block. 01:00:04.120 --> 01:00:04.520 Right? 01:00:04.740 --> 01:00:05.780 Okay, yes. 01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:07.580 That, that is a lot of addresses. 01:00:08.660 --> 01:00:09.840 But, uh. 01:00:10.160 --> 01:00:14.200 But, I mean, like, I'm going to get into that later, I don't want to jump into it now, but. 01:00:14.280 --> 01:00:14.620 Right. 01:00:14.620 --> 01:00:16.920 You know, we, we need more addresses too. 01:00:17.080 --> 01:00:19.960 Like, that may seem like a lot, and it probably is right now. 01:00:20.120 --> 01:00:20.400 Right. 01:00:20.460 --> 01:00:21.840 But, I mean, in the future. 01:00:22.100 --> 01:00:22.800 Well, and that is. 01:00:22.880 --> 01:00:23.660 In the near future. 01:00:23.980 --> 01:00:29.000 That is, of course, the reason for the big push to IPv6, because right now, the, the total 01:00:29.000 --> 01:00:32.280 number of addresses you have possible, mathematically. 01:00:32.520 --> 01:00:36.720 Now, we're not going to get into, as you were well aware, any of the reserved addresses, 01:00:36.900 --> 01:00:42.860 10.x, 127.x, all those, a lot of those, some of the 198s are reserved and stuff. 01:00:42.860 --> 01:00:47.780 We're not going to get into those, but just mathematically, two, it's a 32-bit address 01:00:47.780 --> 01:00:48.340 range. 01:00:48.500 --> 01:00:53.560 So, with 32-bits, you have a limited number of possible addresses with the whole thing. 01:00:54.220 --> 01:00:59.320 So, you've got basically, again, mathematically only, 255 to the fourth power. 01:00:59.400 --> 01:01:09.100 That's 255 times 255 times 255 times 255, um, which, get, basically, works out to around 01:01:09.100 --> 01:01:11.240 4.2, 4.3 billion addresses. 01:01:11.240 --> 01:01:16.320 Now, again, take a few away from that for reserved addresses, but you're talking a little 01:01:16.320 --> 01:01:17.540 over 4 billion addresses. 01:01:17.860 --> 01:01:19.380 Sounds like a lot, like you just said. 01:01:19.420 --> 01:01:20.580 That sounds like a lot of addresses. 01:01:21.360 --> 01:01:22.700 But when you say that for the whole... 01:01:22.700 --> 01:01:25.260 How many people do we have on the earth right now? 01:01:25.560 --> 01:01:26.260 Oh, my gosh. 01:01:26.280 --> 01:01:27.080 I wouldn't even know. 01:01:27.160 --> 01:01:30.520 I'm sure census data, a whole lot more than that. 01:01:31.660 --> 01:01:32.080 A whole lot more. 01:01:32.080 --> 01:01:32.400 Really? 01:01:32.520 --> 01:01:32.720 Okay. 01:01:32.720 --> 01:01:34.620 I would, I would imagine so. 01:01:34.720 --> 01:01:35.260 I would guess. 01:01:35.360 --> 01:01:37.460 I mean, how many, I don't know. 01:01:37.540 --> 01:01:39.000 Actually, that's a very good question. 01:01:39.500 --> 01:01:40.320 I really don't know. 01:01:40.400 --> 01:01:42.560 But certainly, there's not enough to go around. 01:01:42.940 --> 01:01:48.840 And I think estimates, and these are, of course, just people estimate, people's analysis on this 01:01:48.840 --> 01:01:55.100 or whatever, is saying that we're going to run out around 2009, 2010, somewhere in that 01:01:55.100 --> 01:01:55.480 range. 01:01:55.480 --> 01:01:57.800 We're going to run out of IPv4 addresses. 01:01:58.840 --> 01:02:01.120 So, as we're running out, they are coming up... 01:02:01.120 --> 01:02:02.540 Well, they keep saying that. 01:02:02.860 --> 01:02:05.840 Well, yeah, and I'm not lending any credence. 01:02:05.860 --> 01:02:09.100 But the deal is, you have NAT. 01:02:09.780 --> 01:02:11.460 Well, and that's what I was getting ready to go into. 01:02:11.560 --> 01:02:15.600 There are actually some solutions to this problem, and NAT is one of them. 01:02:16.880 --> 01:02:21.400 Dynamic IP addresses, I think, is one that people don't even consider or they overlook a lot. 01:02:21.840 --> 01:02:23.000 You're reusing addresses. 01:02:23.000 --> 01:02:29.060 When you get a dynamic address from your local ISP, they may have 5,000 users, but they don't 01:02:29.060 --> 01:02:33.420 need 5,000 addresses because they might not all be on at the same time. 01:02:34.040 --> 01:02:37.880 Especially that was true in the dial-up days and the AOLs and stuff like that in the world, 01:02:37.960 --> 01:02:39.000 the dial-up ISPs. 01:02:39.800 --> 01:02:43.860 Not everybody's on at the same time, so they can share them and reuse them and just reassign 01:02:43.860 --> 01:02:46.160 the address to somebody dynamically when it's needed. 01:02:46.560 --> 01:02:51.460 So, your friend may have that IP address in the morning, but he logged off and you log in. 01:02:51.460 --> 01:02:53.100 You may get that same IP address later. 01:02:53.220 --> 01:02:57.520 So, you can reuse some of those addresses, and that's something I think people overlook. 01:02:58.340 --> 01:03:04.420 The thing is, wouldn't it be nice, and this is probably a good segue to IPv6, is wouldn't 01:03:04.420 --> 01:03:07.500 it be nice if everybody had their own address? 01:03:07.700 --> 01:03:11.420 Well, skip right over IPv5 because that was this totally experimental thing. 01:03:11.500 --> 01:03:13.640 It was all testing and experimenting. 01:03:13.640 --> 01:03:16.120 So, that didn't really, it's nothing. 01:03:16.260 --> 01:03:17.220 It's not even worth mentioning. 01:03:17.800 --> 01:03:23.120 But IPv6 now is, well, you know a whole lot more about it than I do. 01:03:23.180 --> 01:03:25.380 I know some basics and some statistics. 01:03:26.140 --> 01:03:30.900 But first of all, instead of being 32-bit, which is limited, you have 128 bits to work 01:03:30.900 --> 01:03:31.360 with, right? 01:03:32.080 --> 01:03:32.420 Yeah. 01:03:32.420 --> 01:03:38.920 Well, actually, before we move on, let me just say that, so I went online and looked 01:03:38.920 --> 01:03:44.980 at how many people there are, and there are like 6.5 billion people right now on the earth. 01:03:45.980 --> 01:03:49.280 So, a little more than 4.3. 01:03:49.960 --> 01:03:51.000 Yeah, a few. 01:03:52.280 --> 01:03:52.600 Right. 01:03:52.800 --> 01:03:53.200 So, okay. 01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:54.520 And growing. 01:03:54.520 --> 01:04:00.600 There are definitely more addresses, the addresses is bigger for IPv6. 01:04:01.180 --> 01:04:10.840 Now, in v4, you were saying like it's 255, 255, 255, 255 for each, you know, octal. 01:04:11.160 --> 01:04:11.320 Right. 01:04:11.400 --> 01:04:18.820 Now, what that means is that one IPv4 address has 32 bits in it. 01:04:18.820 --> 01:04:25.940 So, when you write like, you know, the four sections, so each section is 8 bits, which 01:04:25.940 --> 01:04:30.480 has a range of 0 to 255. 01:04:30.780 --> 01:04:31.500 Good, right. 01:04:31.620 --> 01:04:32.400 So, yeah. 01:04:32.400 --> 01:04:44.400 In IPv6, however, each address has 128 bits, and that is 50 octillion addresses. 01:04:45.140 --> 01:04:48.220 I don't even know what an octillion is, but that's a whole hell of a lot. 01:04:48.820 --> 01:04:58.440 Um, so, uh, the, the scientific notation ends up to be like 3.4 times 10 to the 38, whereas 01:04:58.440 --> 01:05:00.520 a billion is just 10 to the 9. 01:05:01.420 --> 01:05:01.980 Wow. 01:05:02.660 --> 01:05:04.080 10 to the 38. 01:05:04.480 --> 01:05:10.160 It's such a big number that they don't even try to, like in the beginning they were saying 01:05:10.160 --> 01:05:10.980 that it would be possible. 01:05:10.980 --> 01:05:15.520 Like, this is one of the things touting IPv6 is that every single person in the world 01:05:15.520 --> 01:05:20.240 will have, be able to have 100 IP addresses for themselves. 01:05:20.380 --> 01:05:22.560 You can put one on your coffee maker, on your refrigerator. 01:05:22.820 --> 01:05:24.360 You can have five for your computers. 01:05:24.560 --> 01:05:27.420 You can, just enough that you can hand them out like candy. 01:05:27.580 --> 01:05:31.000 And basically, effectively, I should say, unlimited. 01:05:31.000 --> 01:05:34.920 I mean, it's obviously limited, but there's so damn many of them, it's ridiculous. 01:05:35.040 --> 01:05:40.500 Have you seen the ones about, they're saying that, um, every atom in your human body could 01:05:40.500 --> 01:05:41.440 have an IP address? 01:05:42.700 --> 01:05:43.060 Yeah. 01:05:43.320 --> 01:05:44.040 That's crazy. 01:05:44.220 --> 01:05:46.420 I actually thought it was in the universe, but that's probably not true. 01:05:46.480 --> 01:05:47.760 There's several different versions. 01:05:47.780 --> 01:05:49.680 But yeah, every single atom in your body can have an IP address. 01:05:49.980 --> 01:05:51.920 Yeah, there's several different things like that. 01:05:52.060 --> 01:05:52.820 Which sounds about right. 01:05:52.820 --> 01:05:54.300 It's, yeah, it's ridiculous. 01:05:54.340 --> 01:05:56.340 Well, okay, so think about it this way. 01:05:56.720 --> 01:06:02.760 It's 2006, and we're, like, you know, not that advanced yet, in the grander scheme of 01:06:02.760 --> 01:06:03.000 things. 01:06:03.060 --> 01:06:03.600 Some of us less than others. 01:06:03.600 --> 01:06:10.080 How many IP, like, if you died right now, and you no longer existed, how many, like, less 01:06:10.080 --> 01:06:12.300 P's would the world be using, you know? 01:06:12.340 --> 01:06:16.760 Like, you have boxes everywhere, you have, you know, this and that, whatever, right? 01:06:16.980 --> 01:06:17.300 Right. 01:06:18.200 --> 01:06:22.240 So it's not, you know, so each person uses a lot of IPs. 01:06:22.240 --> 01:06:27.920 Oh, and, you know, I'm not saying you're going to die, but if you and someone is going 01:06:27.920 --> 01:06:34.260 to die, then, you know, you would not be using at least, like, 10 IPs. 01:06:34.440 --> 01:06:38.920 I mean, you have accounts, and you have, like, hosting, or you have boxes, or whatever. 01:06:39.740 --> 01:06:46.900 So, not only that is, you know, now you're going to get IPs for your Xbox 360, for your 01:06:46.900 --> 01:06:49.840 PS3, for your coffee maker, and all that junk, too. 01:06:49.840 --> 01:06:55.880 But one thing you have to realize is that there are other things in the world taking 01:06:55.880 --> 01:07:00.100 up IP addresses besides, like, people and, like, their computers. 01:07:00.320 --> 01:07:08.060 Like, every single router between you and, like, Pakistan has an IP on the interface. 01:07:08.480 --> 01:07:09.180 Excellent point. 01:07:09.180 --> 01:07:11.600 So, it's not just, like, people. 01:07:11.860 --> 01:07:17.300 It's all the stuff in between, and, you know, who knows how many of that there are. 01:07:17.660 --> 01:07:19.060 Excellent, excellent point. 01:07:19.200 --> 01:07:20.640 Each interface, very good. 01:07:20.860 --> 01:07:23.840 No, I was saying that is an excellent point, and I'm so glad you mentioned that. 01:07:23.960 --> 01:07:25.340 Excellent point that people overlook. 01:07:25.460 --> 01:07:30.840 They don't factor in the backbone itself that has needs to keep the whole infrastructure running. 01:07:30.900 --> 01:07:31.860 It's an excellent point. 01:07:31.860 --> 01:07:34.240 All right, cool, thanks. 01:07:34.540 --> 01:07:37.620 So, like, that, too, and all this other junk, right? 01:07:38.940 --> 01:07:44.060 And, you know, like, I don't have to tell you, like, all these predictions that people 01:07:44.060 --> 01:07:49.400 make, and they turn out to be grossly, you know, underestimations of what people really 01:07:49.400 --> 01:07:49.700 need. 01:07:49.980 --> 01:07:50.240 Right. 01:07:50.240 --> 01:07:56.780 So, kind of, like, the argument that, oh, this is too much, like, we don't need it, that's 01:07:56.780 --> 01:08:02.340 going to probably prove wrong with time, just like most other things in this area. 01:08:03.160 --> 01:08:09.660 But, you know, the increased address space is not just for, you know, giving people more 01:08:09.660 --> 01:08:10.500 IP addresses. 01:08:10.800 --> 01:08:15.660 Like, it definitely does that, but, you know, there are other benefits and implications from 01:08:15.660 --> 01:08:15.980 that. 01:08:16.880 --> 01:08:19.820 Let's try to squeeze it all in here for a chance. 01:08:19.820 --> 01:08:27.780 Like, you were saying, Frank, people are kind of limping by on IPv4 and the lack of addresses 01:08:27.780 --> 01:08:29.800 from, with the use of NAT. 01:08:30.440 --> 01:08:36.580 So, like, my apartment or your house or whatever, you know, we only need one external IP address 01:08:36.580 --> 01:08:38.520 and we have NAT on the inside. 01:08:39.840 --> 01:08:40.120 Right? 01:08:40.340 --> 01:08:41.120 Right, right. 01:08:41.800 --> 01:08:42.120 Right. 01:08:42.120 --> 01:08:50.000 So, the thing with that is, I mean, as you know, that you might have had problems with, 01:08:50.080 --> 01:08:51.520 like, directly connecting with people. 01:08:52.480 --> 01:08:57.740 You know, I'm not going to go, really go into how NAT works, but basically, all the machines 01:08:57.740 --> 01:08:59.880 behind the NAT share an IP address. 01:08:59.880 --> 01:09:08.840 So, when you, you know, send some traffic into a NAT, it doesn't really know which box on 01:09:08.840 --> 01:09:12.220 the inside it needs to go to unless you already have established some state. 01:09:13.120 --> 01:09:17.240 So, I mean, that's a major problem with NAT that they're trying to solve. 01:09:17.780 --> 01:09:23.900 But the thing is, you know, if you have IPv6, you don't need to solve that problem. 01:09:23.900 --> 01:09:31.420 So, I mean, you can have, you can have everyone have an IP address, then, you know, then with 01:09:31.420 --> 01:09:36.380 that, some people are saying, like, oh, there are security concerns or, you know, there are 01:09:36.380 --> 01:09:40.920 problems with, like, well, if I can just access every single box and they're not protected 01:09:40.920 --> 01:09:45.460 by NAT, then, you know, that, that could screw a lot of people. 01:09:45.820 --> 01:09:53.120 But the thing is, you know, why, NAT was not designed for, from a security standpoint, like, 01:09:53.120 --> 01:09:57.440 as a tool for security, just like, because, you know, that's like making something not 01:09:57.440 --> 01:10:03.440 accessible is kind of protecting it, which kind of makes sense, but it's really not, it's 01:10:03.440 --> 01:10:05.640 not actually unaccessible. 01:10:06.180 --> 01:10:09.380 It's just kind of, like, hidden and it makes it one step harder. 01:10:09.860 --> 01:10:14.340 And the other thing is, if you don't have NAT and everyone has an IP address, you can still 01:10:14.340 --> 01:10:20.540 use firewalls and other security devices to protect the machines, you know, that's, quote, 01:10:20.540 --> 01:10:22.680 quote, in your network, inside your network. 01:10:23.520 --> 01:10:23.880 Right. 01:10:24.060 --> 01:10:32.700 But we, we probably need to focus on IPv6, specifically some of the things, because I don't 01:10:32.700 --> 01:10:34.160 know if we can fit five more minutes. 01:10:34.320 --> 01:10:35.160 That's a lot of material. 01:10:35.980 --> 01:10:36.800 Right, right, right. 01:10:37.500 --> 01:10:37.940 Okay. 01:10:37.940 --> 01:10:45.800 So, one, the last thing I want to mention with the address space is, in 1984, some people 01:10:45.800 --> 01:10:51.560 over at MIT wrote this, like, really important paper called the Enchant Arguments in System 01:10:51.560 --> 01:10:52.040 Design. 01:10:52.580 --> 01:10:55.000 And you should definitely go read it. 01:10:55.400 --> 01:11:01.620 But the crux of it is it's saying that functionality should be implemented in the correct layer of 01:11:01.620 --> 01:11:02.200 abstraction. 01:11:02.200 --> 01:11:07.660 So, if, you know, the transport layer should only deal with getting packets from one place 01:11:07.660 --> 01:11:12.160 to one port to another, and you shouldn't, like, stuff any additional functionality in 01:11:12.160 --> 01:11:12.380 there. 01:11:12.860 --> 01:11:18.100 If, like, the application layer, some higher layer of abstraction needs, you know, to use 01:11:18.100 --> 01:11:20.460 something, then they should implement it themselves. 01:11:20.780 --> 01:11:26.500 And IPv6 is going to allow you to do that, because it's going to restore, like, the end-to-end 01:11:26.500 --> 01:11:32.180 principles back to the Internet, where, like, I can access thanks box without having to go to 01:11:32.180 --> 01:11:35.340 any, like, NAT or any, like, translation stuff. 01:11:35.780 --> 01:11:36.060 Right. 01:11:36.160 --> 01:11:37.620 Now, right. 01:11:37.800 --> 01:11:42.940 So, I'm going to post that URL onto the show notes so you can read that. 01:11:43.340 --> 01:11:48.140 But there's another paper called Rethinking the Design of the Internet, the End-to-End 01:11:48.140 --> 01:11:52.860 Argument versus the Brave New World, which is basically saying, like, okay, well, when they 01:11:52.860 --> 01:11:57.300 wrote that in 84, you know, some stuff were true, but now things are a little different. 01:11:57.300 --> 01:12:03.900 And so it re-evaluates the issue that it brings up in, you know, like, the modern times, I 01:12:03.900 --> 01:12:04.040 guess. 01:12:04.400 --> 01:12:09.420 So I will put that link in the show notes also, and then you can read it and discuss 01:12:09.420 --> 01:12:10.080 it yourself. 01:12:11.080 --> 01:12:11.520 Okay. 01:12:11.760 --> 01:12:15.700 So let's get back to more IPv6 and less other things. 01:12:16.900 --> 01:12:22.780 If you have v6 addresses, right, so you have more addresses, that means that you can allocate, 01:12:22.780 --> 01:12:25.580 like, bigger blocks of addresses for each AS. 01:12:26.060 --> 01:12:34.180 So let's say you run, like, AOL.com, and, you know, they may not have one giant, like, 01:12:34.240 --> 01:12:35.840 they may not have a Class A to give you. 01:12:36.400 --> 01:12:41.720 So if you need more IP addresses than that, then you might have to run, like, several Class 01:12:41.720 --> 01:12:44.520 Cs and a Class B, you know, to satisfy your needs. 01:12:44.520 --> 01:12:50.660 But if they had enough addresses, they can just give you one block of one contiguous block 01:12:50.660 --> 01:12:53.740 of addresses, and you can run your whole network. 01:12:54.180 --> 01:13:00.560 So what that's going to do is simplify everyone's routing tables so you will have fewer entries 01:13:00.560 --> 01:13:06.180 because you can have enough addresses to segment the, you know, basically group everything 01:13:06.180 --> 01:13:11.560 together, and you won't have, like, fragmentation of your IP addresses for your network. 01:13:11.560 --> 01:13:14.760 So that is one good thing about v6. 01:13:15.180 --> 01:13:20.900 I mean, Stank, like, at your work or whatever, do you have to look at, like, router configs 01:13:20.900 --> 01:13:23.160 and stuff like that and, like, routing tables? 01:13:23.440 --> 01:13:24.920 No, not myself, no. 01:13:26.000 --> 01:13:33.420 Okay, so I do a lot of times in, like, production networks, and what ends up happening is, like, 01:13:33.580 --> 01:13:39.540 people have these, like, shit-long, like, 5-meg config files on, like, their Cisco routers 01:13:39.540 --> 01:13:44.320 or, like, Juniper or whatever, and it's, like, it's mostly because their network is all over 01:13:44.320 --> 01:13:49.720 the place, and they have to, like, you know, go and, you know, have a bunch of routing rules 01:13:49.720 --> 01:13:55.900 for different subnets because they couldn't get an actual, like, one subnet for all their stuff. 01:13:57.240 --> 01:14:00.100 So, okay, so that's one benefit. 01:14:00.100 --> 01:14:07.660 And the other thing is, like, have you heard people say that IPv6 kind of offers better 01:14:07.660 --> 01:14:10.400 security from, like, something? 01:14:10.560 --> 01:14:10.940 I don't know. 01:14:11.760 --> 01:14:13.040 I don't know that I've heard. 01:14:13.180 --> 01:14:18.580 I've heard that it has inherently, that it is inherently more secure, but honestly, I've 01:14:18.580 --> 01:14:20.240 never heard any explanation of why. 01:14:20.660 --> 01:14:27.020 But that's why, you know, I know, I don't know that much about IPv6 other than the statistics 01:14:27.020 --> 01:14:28.180 that get thrown around. 01:14:28.180 --> 01:14:36.040 Okay, so, you know, the thing is, when I heard that, like, way back in the day, it kind 01:14:36.040 --> 01:14:42.740 of seemed weird to me because, you know, why would you, like, why would a new IP layer 01:14:42.740 --> 01:14:45.360 protocol have better security? 01:14:45.660 --> 01:14:45.960 Right. 01:14:46.100 --> 01:14:53.700 And I think these are, like, the two things that it is saying, that people say mean when 01:14:53.700 --> 01:14:54.280 they say that. 01:14:54.460 --> 01:14:57.920 The first one is it has a bigger address space, again. 01:14:58.180 --> 01:15:04.060 So, what that means is, I mean, as you know, people scan networks all the fucking time. 01:15:04.280 --> 01:15:04.440 Right. 01:15:04.540 --> 01:15:09.820 You put a box out there and people are scanning and, you know, if you have vulnerability, like, 01:15:09.960 --> 01:15:12.560 you know, like minutes, it will be picked up. 01:15:13.260 --> 01:15:20.700 But with a much larger address space, what they're saying is it will be impractical to scan, you know, 01:15:20.700 --> 01:15:26.740 with the scan networks and do all that stuff, like, the enumeration will be harder and it 01:15:26.740 --> 01:15:27.920 will just be not practical. 01:15:27.920 --> 01:15:33.580 Because there's so many addresses, so, like, the kind of hit-to-miss ratio is going to be so 01:15:33.580 --> 01:15:34.980 great that it's not going to be worth it. 01:15:35.480 --> 01:15:35.640 Right. 01:15:35.800 --> 01:15:40.740 Well, it's a simple concept of brute-forcing a short password versus a longer. 01:15:41.060 --> 01:15:47.180 You're brute-forcing or scanning, enumerating, through 4.3 billion addresses, 4.2 billion we 01:15:47.180 --> 01:15:51.840 were talking about earlier, versus 50 octillion try to scan through those. 01:15:51.960 --> 01:15:54.140 I mean, that's a pretty big difference. 01:15:55.400 --> 01:15:55.620 Yeah. 01:15:55.860 --> 01:16:02.480 I mean, so, I mean, my opinion on that is just, like, you know, that's not really a security 01:16:02.480 --> 01:16:03.300 feature. 01:16:03.860 --> 01:16:06.380 You know, like, people, like, a number is a number. 01:16:06.900 --> 01:16:11.760 Like, compared to, I don't know, like, 5,000, 4.3 billion is pretty fucking big, right? 01:16:11.960 --> 01:16:12.320 Right. 01:16:12.320 --> 01:16:18.800 So, right, so, you know, it's like, at some point, people are going to find clever ways 01:16:18.800 --> 01:16:21.940 to get around that or just throw more power at it. 01:16:22.040 --> 01:16:26.860 I mean, not power, but, like, throw more boxes that scan addresses at it or something. 01:16:27.120 --> 01:16:31.780 Well, will there still be blocks, address blocks, somehow in IPv6? 01:16:33.480 --> 01:16:41.060 Yeah, so what happens is you still have the network portion, and you still have, like, 01:16:41.060 --> 01:16:44.920 your host portion, I think they call it. 01:16:45.740 --> 01:16:48.940 So, basically, in V4, you have, like, a mask, right? 01:16:49.120 --> 01:16:54.700 And it's like, okay, the mask tells you how many bits are, like, how long my network is. 01:16:55.300 --> 01:17:00.700 And, like, so if you do, like, a slash 8, that's, like, class A or whatever. 01:17:00.980 --> 01:17:06.280 So it's just saying, like, the first 8 bits are my network, and then the rest are the host-specific 01:17:06.280 --> 01:17:08.420 or network-specific host IPs, right? 01:17:08.420 --> 01:17:10.480 So they have the exact same thing in IPv6. 01:17:12.240 --> 01:17:16.400 All right, well, then, I guess if you knew which ones were assigned to a certain place, 01:17:16.460 --> 01:17:18.940 you could limit your scan to within that. 01:17:19.600 --> 01:17:20.280 You know, I don't know. 01:17:20.440 --> 01:17:20.520 Right. 01:17:20.580 --> 01:17:21.400 Do we have time? 01:17:21.520 --> 01:17:22.380 You can definitely do that. 01:17:22.500 --> 01:17:24.280 Like, no one's telling you to scan the whole Internet. 01:17:24.560 --> 01:17:29.540 Verbal, do we still have time to do all that you want to do on this topic, or should we split this up? 01:17:29.580 --> 01:17:32.300 I'm not sure if we're going to be able to. 01:17:32.300 --> 01:17:33.580 No, I think we have time. 01:17:33.680 --> 01:17:35.060 Do we have, like, 10 more minutes? 01:17:35.340 --> 01:17:35.700 Nope. 01:17:35.700 --> 01:17:39.240 Oh, well, I guess that's not a question. 01:17:39.400 --> 01:17:41.220 I guess I'll wrap this up next show. 01:17:41.840 --> 01:17:46.800 Yeah, I hate breaking stuff up in the middle, but unfortunately, I think, um, I don't know 01:17:46.800 --> 01:17:49.620 that we're going to have the time to do it this episode, unfortunately. 01:17:51.120 --> 01:17:52.520 Okay, sorry, everyone. 01:17:52.800 --> 01:17:55.860 Yeah, I guess some of these tops were biting off too big. 01:17:55.900 --> 01:17:59.400 We probably should have skipped covert channels or something in the beginning and saved that 01:17:59.400 --> 01:18:00.480 for a different show. 01:18:00.480 --> 01:18:07.060 Yeah, probably, but this is my first time hosting, so, uh, next time it'll be better. 01:18:07.260 --> 01:18:10.880 And you know what, I take some fault because I was interrupting with questions here and 01:18:10.880 --> 01:18:16.240 there, but let's, um, I will come up with some specific questions next week on this because 01:18:16.240 --> 01:18:21.760 I think it's a little bit better to answer some questions on this, Q&A on this. 01:18:21.760 --> 01:18:24.780 So we'll do, next episode, we'll do some IPv6. 01:18:24.980 --> 01:18:31.740 This one was mostly covert channels and IPv4, which are definitely related, and so will covert 01:18:31.740 --> 01:18:37.720 channels and IPv6 based on that presentation we saw at DEF CON, but, um, yeah, we're going 01:18:37.720 --> 01:18:39.560 to have to break up IPv6 to another episode. 01:18:39.680 --> 01:18:41.140 There's just too much to talk about, really. 01:18:41.140 --> 01:18:48.240 Yeah, that's true, and I mean, that's fine, but, like, I would rather do a show, you know, 01:18:48.300 --> 01:18:50.600 the show correctly than to rush through it. 01:18:50.840 --> 01:18:51.880 Exactly, exactly. 01:18:52.120 --> 01:18:56.120 All right, so, um, well, what are we going to do from here then? 01:18:56.200 --> 01:18:56.500 Shouts? 01:18:56.720 --> 01:18:59.060 Oh, so right now, uh, let's do some shouts. 01:18:59.360 --> 01:19:01.480 Uh, Stan, do you have any shouts you want to give out? 01:19:01.980 --> 01:19:07.740 Um, well, I'll give shouts to my regular crew at, uh, BR-407, the Benref-407 meeting. 01:19:07.740 --> 01:19:13.700 Um, I'll give some shout-outs to Chilean hackers, hackers from Chile, got contacts all 01:19:13.700 --> 01:19:18.500 over the planet, biatch, so I was kind of thinking how funny it would be, I would make 01:19:18.500 --> 01:19:23.220 a trip around the world one, one time, sometime in the upcoming years, maybe make a trip around 01:19:23.220 --> 01:19:27.600 the world and crash with a different hacker in a different country along the way, kind 01:19:27.600 --> 01:19:32.600 of do this hack the planet, literally, I guess, go around the, go around the planet and meet 01:19:32.600 --> 01:19:35.620 a bunch of different people, because so many people in so many different countries that 01:19:35.620 --> 01:19:43.080 I've met, um, so shouts to everybody, but Chile is my country of the week, and, uh, and I 01:19:43.080 --> 01:19:46.140 guess I'll throw in some shouts to BlackRash, but I haven't given him, given him shouts 01:19:46.140 --> 01:19:48.340 in a while, so, uh, that's enough for me. 01:19:49.940 --> 01:19:50.340 Chile? 01:19:52.180 --> 01:19:53.880 I'm sorry, Justin, I laughed. 01:19:54.800 --> 01:19:56.320 Did I say that and laugh? 01:19:57.420 --> 01:19:57.820 Okay. 01:19:57.820 --> 01:20:04.100 Uh, yeah, I just want to give shouts to my mentee, Crackpin, for writing and debugging 01:20:04.100 --> 01:20:06.580 his first program, and see, good job. 01:20:06.740 --> 01:20:06.980 Woo! 01:20:07.740 --> 01:20:08.020 Woo! 01:20:08.880 --> 01:20:10.960 Um, do we have a side of the week? 01:20:11.020 --> 01:20:11.920 I think we do. 01:20:12.540 --> 01:20:17.820 Uh, how about, uh, let's see, side of the week is, um, not related to the topic exactly, 01:20:18.000 --> 01:20:24.200 at all, actually, but, um, I've been finding myself going to a site called hotdeals.org, 01:20:24.200 --> 01:20:31.640 that's H-O-T dash D-A-L-S dot org, uh, doing some shopping, they find a bunch of the stuff 01:20:31.640 --> 01:20:36.940 that's on sale, cool, uh, sales, misprices, things like that, so I've been shopping, I 01:20:36.940 --> 01:20:44.160 bought a 2GB flashcard for, uh, it's like $34, and then a $20, $20 rebate on top of that, 01:20:44.240 --> 01:20:47.780 so, like, $15 for a 2GB flashcard, hells yeah! 01:20:48.760 --> 01:20:50.020 Nice, sounds awesome. 01:20:50.020 --> 01:20:56.400 Um, all right, uh, as always, you can email us at radio at binrev.com, or you can email 01:20:56.400 --> 01:21:07.000 me personally at verbal at binrev.com, and the closing music is from ArtRenSpace, I'm a 01:21:07.000 --> 01:21:08.700 fucking moron remix. 01:21:09.540 --> 01:21:12.560 Hey, do you have anything to say about that? 01:21:12.560 --> 01:21:18.460 Well, that's, um, that was, uh, some of my comments from a recent show, or I even made, 01:21:18.540 --> 01:21:23.340 I even said and made the joke, the comment, somebody's going to remix this into a three 01:21:23.340 --> 01:21:29.500 and a half minute song on MySpace, me saying, I'm a fucking moron, and, yep, sure enough, 01:21:29.640 --> 01:21:35.680 it came true, so this is hilarious, closing song for tonight, it's R-N-Y Space, which is 01:21:35.680 --> 01:21:39.680 my, an attempt at MySpace, I think it's somebody who wanted to stay anonymous is what it is, 01:21:39.680 --> 01:21:43.880 they thought I might get mad or something, but I think it's hilarious, so, that's going 01:21:43.880 --> 01:21:45.200 to be our closing music for the week. 01:21:46.160 --> 01:21:50.520 All right, thanks a lot, we'll see you next week, same hack time. 01:21:51.200 --> 01:21:52.340 Same hack channel. 01:21:53.100 --> 01:21:56.360 I will suck it up and admit, I'm a fucking moron. 01:22:01.000 --> 01:22:03.480 Hey, somebody's going to take that clip and loop it a little bit. 01:22:03.480 --> 01:22:24.400 I will suck it up and admit, I'm a fucking moron. 01:22:24.400 --> 01:22:54.380 Hey, somebody's going to take that clip and loop it a little bit. 01:22:54.380 --> 01:23:04.420 It's already a three and a half minutes on, and somebody's MySpace. 01:23:17.000 --> 01:23:18.340 I'm going to say dumb enough. 01:23:18.840 --> 01:23:19.620 Dumb, dumb enough. 01:23:20.020 --> 01:23:21.120 Dumb, dumb, dumb enough. 01:23:21.280 --> 01:23:22.280 I'm a fucking moron. 01:23:22.280 --> 01:23:24.280 I'm a fucking moron. 01:23:24.280 --> 01:23:26.280 I'm a fucking moron. 01:23:28.280 --> 01:23:36.280 Hey, somebody's going to take that clip and loop it a little bit. 01:23:36.280 --> 01:23:38.460 I'm a fucking moron. 01:23:40.660 --> 01:23:44.140 I'm a fucking moron. 01:23:44.140 --> 01:23:50.520 I'm a fucking bitch. 01:23:51.160 --> 01:23:52.280 I'm a fucking bitch. 01:23:52.880 --> 01:23:55.520 Why don't you throw that out there and leave that hanging? 01:24:09.940 --> 01:24:12.400 You know, something we always come back to. 01:24:14.140 --> 01:24:18.420 And I'm not going to preach on it again, but quite frankly, I'm a fucking moron. 01:24:28.920 --> 01:24:32.420 I'm a fucking moron. 01:24:32.420 --> 01:24:36.420 I'm a fucking moron. 01:24:37.020 --> 01:24:39.720 Hey, you're so much going to take that slip and move it a little bit. 01:24:40.940 --> 01:24:42.320 You ain't dumb enough. 01:24:44.140 --> 01:25:14.120 I'm a fucking moron. 01:25:14.120 --> 01:25:20.640 It's already a three and a half minute song on somebody's MySpace.