WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:09.460 This is dedicated to all the hackers and the crackers, to the hackers and the crackers. 00:09.760 --> 00:15.520 I see in binary, I speak source code, step on my toes, I'll post a million jpegs of you 00:15.520 --> 00:16.600 and a fag pwned. 00:16.720 --> 00:21.640 In your digital stance, getting firewalled ho, cause I'm riding the net in my six-fold. 00:21.900 --> 00:26.440 I was a dick with my 56, now with my cable I'm able to get that stable. 00:26.440 --> 00:32.460 On the out, my name is Ace and I'm a Leo. On the digital highway, my name is Neo and I'm a hero. 00:32.680 --> 00:38.360 In a flash, I'll screw you on burning Dreamcast. You need some ISO? Let me through my hard drive rifle. 00:38.700 --> 00:43.520 Our exchange you could never stifle. In a digital hug, you just caught the love bug. 00:43.840 --> 00:47.540 I bootlegged your CD, I caused a fight between Un and Jay-Z. 00:47.880 --> 00:52.100 Your CG, it's all gonna be free, whether we take it by force or we take it nicely. 00:52.220 --> 00:56.280 You feel that rattling your bones? When I tell you we just hacked out Jones. 00:56.440 --> 01:00.720 And NASDAQ leaves you flat on your back, cause I am he who loves to hack and crack. 01:01.080 --> 01:03.500 Cause I am he who loves to hack and crack. 01:03.960 --> 01:06.780 This is dedicated to the hackers and the creepers. 01:07.040 --> 01:11.660 Serial codes, source codes, ISOs, RANs, SIFs, SIFs. 01:11.900 --> 01:13.940 This is dedicated to the hackers and... 01:13.940 --> 01:21.840 Hello, everybody. Once again, you are listening to Binary Revolution Radio, episode number 170. 01:22.680 --> 01:32.340 170 episodes of our weekly radio show about hacking, technology, and all the other fun related things that go along with it. 01:32.340 --> 01:38.960 Today is, let's see, October 24th, 2006 is when this is airing. 01:39.760 --> 01:42.400 And you know something? I'm gonna start off the show... 01:42.400 --> 01:47.860 People who've listened to the show from the beginning or for a long time know that I have a tendency sometimes to get corny about things 01:47.860 --> 01:54.680 and try to keep a whole positive outlook on hacking and what the quote-unquote community is all about. 01:55.640 --> 01:57.860 And, I don't know, I kind of... 01:58.420 --> 02:01.040 Maybe I'm sentimental or maybe I'm just... 02:01.040 --> 02:02.940 I don't know, whatever I am. 02:02.940 --> 02:11.020 But, I kind of have been having this little thought process lately of how much fun I've been having hacking again lately. 02:11.380 --> 02:17.920 I've actually been getting some time to do things and getting back involved in projects and working with other people on projects. 02:18.320 --> 02:27.380 And even better yet, you know, watching other people develop their projects and maybe helping out, giving advice, and watching the community put a lot of cool things out. 02:27.380 --> 02:30.680 So, I mean, it seems to be meshing back together now. 02:30.880 --> 02:33.220 There's not so much drama mixed in. 02:33.560 --> 02:38.740 And it just kind of got me thinking and realizing that hacking is starting to be fun again. 02:38.880 --> 02:43.580 I mean, I've said on the show many times before that hacking is about learning. 02:44.120 --> 02:46.140 It's about educating yourself. 02:46.280 --> 02:47.680 It's about educating others. 02:47.880 --> 02:51.780 It's about laughing and having fun and enjoying things. 02:51.780 --> 02:59.180 Because, you know, if you're out on a website and hacking away at something or researching something or trying tricks on things, 02:59.240 --> 03:00.060 Hey, will this work? 03:00.140 --> 03:01.300 Hey, I wonder if I can do that. 03:01.980 --> 03:04.800 You know, you should be on the phone. 03:04.860 --> 03:07.520 If you're not laughing out loud, calling somebody on the phone and going, 03:07.620 --> 03:09.160 Yo, Not Theory, dude, check this out. 03:09.200 --> 03:10.140 Look what I just found. 03:10.280 --> 03:13.340 You know, hey, Bland and Quizzer, check this out. 03:13.380 --> 03:14.400 You'll never believe what I found. 03:14.400 --> 03:19.520 If you're not excited about what you're doing and you're not enjoying what you're doing 03:19.520 --> 03:22.420 and you're not laughing and sharing with other people and having fun, 03:23.120 --> 03:26.760 I guess that's the short answer, the short way to say it. 03:27.180 --> 03:31.640 If you're not having fun while hacking, you're not doing it right. 03:32.340 --> 03:36.060 You're doing something wrong because hacking is supposed to be fun. 03:36.160 --> 03:39.640 It's supposed to be something you learn from and something that you enjoy doing. 03:39.640 --> 03:44.640 If it's work and drama and fighting and arguing and putting people down 03:44.640 --> 03:48.100 and all this attacking each other and negativity, 03:48.100 --> 03:49.940 you're not hacking. 03:50.180 --> 03:55.200 No matter what you think, no matter what you may do, you're not hacking. 03:55.320 --> 03:58.560 It's just not what hacking is supposed to be all about. 03:59.000 --> 04:03.540 And, you know, my co-host on the show this week, you know, 04:03.620 --> 04:06.260 I think epitomizes that more than anyone I know. 04:06.260 --> 04:10.620 You know, maybe that's why I'm kind of verklempt for this episode of the show 04:10.620 --> 04:15.680 is because co-hosting the show with me is someone that I've been good friends with 04:15.680 --> 04:18.680 for a long, long time in the hacking scene, 04:19.500 --> 04:23.720 someone who I meet up with at conferences quite a few times a year. 04:23.860 --> 04:25.620 We talk on the phone quite regularly. 04:26.400 --> 04:29.600 Sometimes we'll go through little phases where we talk less than others. 04:29.740 --> 04:32.060 But Dual Parallel is joining me on the show again today. 04:32.200 --> 04:35.420 So Dual, and possibly, now correct me if I'm wrong, 04:35.460 --> 04:37.900 we might possibly have an appearance by Mrs. Parallel as well. 04:37.900 --> 04:39.380 Yeah, yeah, she's here right now. 04:39.380 --> 04:43.200 We might get a bonus appearance, a bonus co-host on the episode. 04:43.200 --> 04:45.540 Okay, I've got to say, that's like the fourth DTMF I've heard. 04:45.720 --> 04:49.420 Are you like, is your like foot on the speakerphone? 04:49.520 --> 04:50.060 What's going on? 04:50.160 --> 04:54.260 No, no, my phone still sends random DTMF tones out every once in a while. 04:54.260 --> 04:55.500 Are you serious? That's really cool. 04:55.660 --> 04:56.540 I don't hear them. 04:56.560 --> 04:56.800 What a great feature. 04:57.040 --> 04:58.040 Yeah, I don't hear them. 04:58.080 --> 04:59.440 Only people on the other line hear them. 04:59.600 --> 05:00.560 But, yeah, I know they exist. 05:00.580 --> 05:01.320 That's another one. What the hell? 05:01.720 --> 05:02.220 I don't know. 05:02.320 --> 05:03.140 I think it interprets. 05:03.340 --> 05:04.900 No, I think it interprets the numbers. 05:05.120 --> 05:07.720 I think it interprets my voice and turns them into touchstones. 05:07.720 --> 05:08.700 Don't worry, call the ghost. 05:10.720 --> 05:11.320 Stop that. 05:12.020 --> 05:12.420 Uh-oh. 05:12.880 --> 05:13.660 Okay, hold on, here. 05:14.960 --> 05:15.780 Hi, Snake. 05:15.920 --> 05:18.040 Welcome to the show, Mrs. Parallel. How are you? 05:18.300 --> 05:20.240 I'm doing well. Thank you so much. 05:20.320 --> 05:20.820 I know. 05:21.040 --> 05:21.720 You're having me on today. 05:21.720 --> 05:25.100 I know that we're keeping you away from your Yu-Gi-Oh! and your Pokemon. 05:25.860 --> 05:27.840 Actually, it's Naruto, but that's okay. 05:28.360 --> 05:29.680 Naruto, excuse me. 05:30.160 --> 05:30.440 Yes. 05:30.560 --> 05:33.100 But I actually, now see, I actually know who that one is. 05:33.180 --> 05:34.660 I saw that on the DVD rack. 05:34.660 --> 05:37.900 That's the head with the goggles and the orange vest or something, I think, right? 05:38.380 --> 05:38.780 Yes. 05:38.900 --> 05:40.080 Yes, I know who it is. 05:40.120 --> 05:47.000 I've never watched it, but, you know, you Japanimation extremists. 05:47.220 --> 05:48.300 It's Duel's fault. 05:48.440 --> 05:48.800 I know. 05:48.820 --> 05:52.000 He got me into it, so I just blame him for everything. 05:52.320 --> 05:54.440 Well, yeah, that pretty much works around here, too. 05:55.220 --> 05:56.280 That's a pastime. 05:57.400 --> 05:58.460 It's Duel's fault. 05:59.080 --> 06:00.260 It is Duel's fault. 06:02.820 --> 06:06.940 Anyway, how about any housekeeping we want to do at the top of the show? 06:07.000 --> 06:07.880 You got anything for us? 06:08.420 --> 06:08.720 Me? 06:09.060 --> 06:10.280 Yeah, you're on the show. 06:10.800 --> 06:11.160 Housekeeping. 06:11.920 --> 06:13.180 Any news you want to announce? 06:13.340 --> 06:15.080 Any, uh, what kind of hacking have you been... 06:15.080 --> 06:15.920 Any news, honey? 06:16.420 --> 06:17.040 Remove me? 06:17.520 --> 06:17.880 No. 06:18.740 --> 06:19.660 No, nothing. 06:20.440 --> 06:22.500 No, we don't have anything that we're announcing. 06:24.020 --> 06:25.320 We've already been married. 06:25.540 --> 06:26.140 No kids. 06:26.360 --> 06:27.120 Nothing like that. 06:27.280 --> 06:29.840 Okay, well, yeah, I think, um... 06:29.840 --> 06:31.780 I don't know if we ever actually made that public information. 06:31.900 --> 06:36.080 I think Mrs. Parallel infers the marriage at this point, right? 06:36.080 --> 06:39.260 Oh, yeah, we got married quite some time, about two and a half years ago. 06:39.360 --> 06:40.360 Yeah, yeah. 06:40.660 --> 06:41.440 It's been a while. 06:41.500 --> 06:44.180 I think most of the people in the community know who I am. 06:44.620 --> 06:48.140 Well, and, you know, we've met up at... 06:48.140 --> 06:52.860 I meet up with you as often as I meet up with Duel, because we were in Vegas this past year. 06:53.000 --> 06:55.260 And we were in, where did we go, New York last... 06:55.260 --> 06:56.180 Two years ago, was it? 06:56.260 --> 06:57.320 Yes, that is correct. 06:57.420 --> 06:57.980 I was there. 06:58.240 --> 07:01.960 So, she's around and in the scene as well. 07:02.040 --> 07:03.040 Maybe more than Duel. 07:03.160 --> 07:03.240 I am. 07:03.460 --> 07:06.740 I actually go to 2,600 meetings with them as well, so... 07:06.740 --> 07:07.220 Do you really? 07:07.280 --> 07:07.780 You didn't tell me. 07:07.820 --> 07:09.120 I didn't know you started going to the meetings. 07:09.280 --> 07:09.820 I do. 07:09.940 --> 07:10.940 I go every so often. 07:10.940 --> 07:12.940 It's actually a really nice group. 07:13.040 --> 07:19.800 They welcome me, even though I'm not technical, per se, but I can hack in my own... 07:19.800 --> 07:20.360 You use Linux. 07:20.480 --> 07:21.380 I use Linux. 07:21.460 --> 07:22.260 You use security. 07:22.440 --> 07:22.940 I use scientific Linux. 07:23.040 --> 07:23.580 Yeah, you use... 07:23.580 --> 07:24.900 Of course, it's me too, but I use it. 07:26.020 --> 07:28.440 Yeah, you have scientific Linux, although I hear you... 07:28.440 --> 07:28.460 I do. 07:28.740 --> 07:31.580 I hear you have a bad habit of putting the... 07:31.580 --> 07:33.540 Closing the laptop without shutting it down. 07:34.200 --> 07:35.820 Ooh, did he tell you that? 07:35.840 --> 07:36.440 Oh, yeah. 07:36.440 --> 07:40.160 Yeah, I bet everybody who's listening is probably cringing to that right now. 07:40.300 --> 07:41.760 Yeah, I do. 07:41.980 --> 07:43.200 I don't know what it is. 07:43.340 --> 07:43.900 I'm... 07:43.900 --> 07:46.960 Yeah, I'm not real technically savvy, so... 07:46.960 --> 07:48.460 But I did use, what, Slackware? 07:48.560 --> 07:49.120 Slackware, yeah. 07:49.180 --> 07:53.440 Before I used scientific Linux, so that was... 07:53.440 --> 07:55.940 He did all the command line, backend stuff. 07:56.000 --> 07:57.280 I just clicked the buttons. 07:58.120 --> 07:59.080 How about Ubuntu? 07:59.860 --> 08:02.260 You know, I'm not familiar with Ubuntu. 08:02.580 --> 08:03.840 Oh, I thought you tried that before. 08:03.940 --> 08:04.260 I thought you... 08:04.260 --> 08:05.140 I don't think so. 08:05.220 --> 08:07.540 I don't think you put that distribution on my computer. 08:08.100 --> 08:08.540 But I did... 08:08.540 --> 08:08.940 What do you think? 08:09.140 --> 08:13.380 I did break Gmail, though, trying to get an account there once. 08:13.600 --> 08:14.620 You broke Gmail. 08:15.040 --> 08:16.520 I broke Gmail, yeah. 08:16.700 --> 08:19.860 So that's why he is the sysadmin for our household. 08:20.080 --> 08:21.160 Ah, gotcha. 08:22.380 --> 08:23.240 All righty. 08:23.320 --> 08:25.780 Well, how about Mr. Parallel there? 08:25.780 --> 08:27.580 Does he have any housekeeping you want to do? 08:27.580 --> 08:28.800 Let me hand the phone over. 08:28.920 --> 08:29.200 Hold on. 08:29.260 --> 08:29.500 All right. 08:32.180 --> 08:33.180 My wife broke Google. 08:33.420 --> 08:33.900 It was awesome. 08:33.900 --> 08:34.620 I know. 08:35.080 --> 08:37.420 Google doesn't like any of us, I don't think, anymore. 08:38.220 --> 08:39.700 But that's a rant for another day. 08:39.780 --> 08:41.620 Okay, let's do a little housekeeping here and move on. 08:41.740 --> 08:42.720 What, um... 08:42.720 --> 08:43.740 Well, you got anything for housekeeping? 08:43.940 --> 08:46.000 I mean, geez, it's been so long since you were on the show. 08:47.460 --> 08:48.140 No, no. 08:48.140 --> 08:48.420 Gosh. 08:48.420 --> 08:49.480 I'm ready to roll. 08:49.900 --> 08:50.460 All right. 08:50.560 --> 08:50.980 Well, cool. 08:51.040 --> 08:52.540 Let me do a couple little things. 08:52.540 --> 08:55.960 Um, I have been making a lot. 08:55.960 --> 08:59.040 I've been doing a lot of work in the forums, making a lot of forum upgrades lately. 08:59.700 --> 09:06.420 Um, one of them was, uh, one of the smaller ones, really, was rearranging the meetings sub-forums. 09:06.420 --> 09:18.000 We used to kind of thought that it'd be a cool thing if we gave everybody their own sub-forum for their meetings sites, so that way they could still stay in the main forums where people like to hang out and have their sites separate. 09:18.000 --> 09:20.740 Well, I think that was just fracturing it too much. 09:20.820 --> 09:30.460 It was causing it to be a little bit too chaotic and mixed up from here to there, so I cleaned all that up and just made one giant general meetings forum, so it's still active and we're still doing meetings. 09:30.580 --> 09:37.300 There's still new ones coming up, uh, all the time, so there's nothing changing about it other than kind of rearranging the forums. 09:37.760 --> 09:39.840 A little reorganization, if you will. 09:41.080 --> 09:44.360 I also added some XML feeds. 09:44.360 --> 09:53.320 We added, um, something I've been wanting to do for a long time and hadn't had the time to do it, uh, adding a lot of XML feeds from other sites into our forums. 09:53.820 --> 09:57.760 They come in and they're just like forum posts, as though they were posted by a user. 09:58.120 --> 10:08.620 Got a little engine that will pull that data in there, post them, allow people to reply to them, so you can get all these latest security headlines and news topics and then have a conversation about them. 10:08.660 --> 10:09.420 How does this work? 10:09.480 --> 10:10.640 Has anybody heard of this before? 10:10.760 --> 10:12.120 I wonder if we can do this better. 10:12.120 --> 10:13.860 What happens if we change this? 10:13.860 --> 10:18.460 So it'll hopefully stimulate a little bit of conversation in the forum. 10:18.580 --> 10:20.340 So we're going to keep it minimal, though. 10:20.460 --> 10:26.120 I could, there's so many sites we could add that could really take up a lot of room, but we're going to keep it pretty, pretty minimized. 10:27.160 --> 10:33.960 And the other big thing, and Duel, you'll probably would enjoy this one, I think, is we added a new forum, and it's called New Projects. 10:34.460 --> 10:38.920 It's a new forum for people to come in and propose and work on projects with each other. 10:38.920 --> 10:46.720 Now, because I get a lot of email from people saying, oh, I want to help out or I want to work on something, but I don't know what to do. 10:46.800 --> 10:47.980 I don't know what to work on. 10:48.040 --> 10:49.080 Can I help with this? 10:49.160 --> 10:50.440 Do you need any help on that? 10:50.440 --> 10:59.780 And, you know, we do, you know, ask for help on a lot of different things, and we do get a lot of help, but I thought it would be cool to add a forum out there. 10:59.820 --> 11:03.820 And we had a few people request this via email as well, so it looks like the demand is there. 11:03.820 --> 11:15.740 Where we can post project ideas, whether they're as simple as, hey, I'd like to see an article on this, or I want to write an article on this, can someone help me, or do some research, things like that. 11:15.740 --> 11:37.980 So we put a forum out there so that people can get together and help come up with ideas for each other and help work with each other on doing things, whether it's as simple as an article, starting a new website that's helpful, writing a new application, anything, from coding down to research to whatever, all that kind of stuff is fair game in that forum. 11:38.080 --> 11:40.960 So I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out of that. 11:43.120 --> 11:43.520 That's a rule. 11:43.520 --> 11:50.980 Yep, and I think that's all that I've got, so why don't we move into some email. 11:50.980 --> 12:16.100 Yeah, we've got quite a bit of email this week, as it turns out. 12:16.100 --> 12:21.040 I have one email we're going to start with from Doc Simmons. 12:21.180 --> 12:23.560 Doc Simmons says... 12:23.560 --> 12:27.140 Is that the guy who does, like, exercises and stuff and... 12:27.140 --> 12:27.540 What? 12:28.520 --> 12:32.100 What's that, you know, he's got the afro and he wears, like, little shorts and... 12:32.920 --> 12:34.080 Uh, Richard Simmons? 12:34.220 --> 12:34.900 Richard Simmons. 12:35.020 --> 12:35.860 I'm sorry, wrong guy. 12:35.960 --> 12:36.720 Sorry, sorry, sorry. 12:36.880 --> 12:37.560 Okay, go on. 12:37.580 --> 12:39.440 What's the name of the doctor from Back to the Future? 12:40.880 --> 12:41.660 Back to the who? 12:41.960 --> 12:42.700 Back to the Future. 12:42.700 --> 12:44.540 Oh, what's that dude's name with the gigawatts? 12:44.540 --> 12:45.300 Christopher, was it... 12:45.300 --> 12:45.780 Oh, man. 12:45.920 --> 12:47.140 Christopher, no, wait a minute, Lloyd? 12:47.280 --> 12:48.660 Just Doc, because his name's Doc. 12:48.840 --> 12:49.420 Just Doc? 12:49.680 --> 12:50.080 Okay. 12:50.220 --> 12:51.340 Well, it's something about it. 12:51.360 --> 12:51.780 I don't know. 12:52.260 --> 12:53.060 Richard Simmons, okay. 12:53.180 --> 12:55.260 I'm sure this is not either one of those people. 12:55.340 --> 12:55.960 How about that? 12:56.180 --> 12:56.480 Yeah. 12:57.640 --> 12:58.680 Doc Simmons says, 12:58.680 --> 13:00.180 Dear BinRev Dudes, 13:00.960 --> 13:03.760 I was listening to episode 165 on fishing. 13:04.660 --> 13:07.140 Over the summer, I made a fishing page from MySpace. 13:07.600 --> 13:10.700 I sent the link to maybe 30 people, telling them it was the, quote, 13:10.960 --> 13:13.800 funniest MySpace ever, lolololol. 13:14.680 --> 13:16.740 And about 13 people took the bait. 13:17.120 --> 13:21.600 Then I posted the information on a forum and allowed people to go nuts. 13:21.980 --> 13:26.240 The next morning, those 13 MySpace accounts were all covered in goat sea. 13:26.800 --> 13:27.880 But here is the kicker. 13:27.880 --> 13:31.020 I used Yahoo Pages to host the fishing site. 13:31.460 --> 13:36.920 It had huge Yahoo ads all over, and it was totally shitty looking. 13:37.320 --> 13:38.500 People are dumb. 13:38.960 --> 13:40.740 Revenge is sweet. 13:42.720 --> 13:44.440 Revenge is also very petty. 13:44.600 --> 13:45.820 Can I get an amen on this one? 13:46.140 --> 13:47.700 Well, it doesn't sound like revenge for what? 13:47.760 --> 13:50.260 I mean, it just sounds like you kind of ran a test. 13:50.420 --> 13:51.020 I mean... 13:51.020 --> 13:54.240 Well, and that's just the thing, is if this was... 13:54.240 --> 13:57.260 If these 30 people were, like, friends of his, 13:57.260 --> 14:01.400 then, yeah, I mean, a joke is a joke, and I'm fine with all that. 14:01.520 --> 14:02.220 You're not going to delete... 14:02.220 --> 14:02.660 I think that's all it was. 14:02.780 --> 14:04.160 Yeah, you wouldn't delete their stuff. 14:04.240 --> 14:05.580 You wouldn't damage anything, you know. 14:06.460 --> 14:08.260 You've got to be able to take a good joke, you know. 14:08.380 --> 14:09.180 That's kind of funny. 14:09.320 --> 14:13.640 But, I mean, when you're posting their docs in a forum somewhere for other people to come in, 14:13.640 --> 14:16.100 and they're posting GoatSee, that's not a joke anymore. 14:16.440 --> 14:17.100 Well, that was... 14:17.100 --> 14:18.260 Did you say docs? 14:18.320 --> 14:19.300 I mean, just... 14:19.300 --> 14:23.620 Well, he posted their account, MySpace accounts, and user and password, obviously, 14:23.740 --> 14:25.320 for people to come in and GoatSee it. 14:26.260 --> 14:26.660 Oh. 14:26.800 --> 14:27.760 And that's kind of lame. 14:28.440 --> 14:29.100 Oh, okay. 14:29.180 --> 14:30.160 I guess I get it now. 14:30.260 --> 14:30.420 Yeah. 14:30.420 --> 14:30.680 Okay. 14:30.900 --> 14:31.380 Up until... 14:31.380 --> 14:44.020 I mean, I'm not familiar with the whole MySpace thing, you know, on the inter-world webs and the computation machines, so... 14:44.020 --> 14:44.500 Yeah. 14:44.780 --> 14:45.740 It's definitely... 14:45.740 --> 14:48.600 Maybe that's their punishment for using MySpace, possibly. 14:48.880 --> 14:49.180 I don't know. 14:49.400 --> 14:58.640 Well, plus this guy, he says he put up a phishing page with an F, like he, like, those reels and rods and, like, flies and stuff, so... 14:58.640 --> 15:05.080 Yeah, and a couple places he's PH, and then other places F, so, I don't know. 15:05.100 --> 15:05.280 Yeah. 15:05.420 --> 15:05.780 Whatever. 15:06.180 --> 15:14.120 But, yeah, posting the docs on the forum, or the docs being the users and password and the account, so that people could GoatSee it, that's when it crosses the line. 15:14.200 --> 15:15.600 I mean, we don't allow that in our forums. 15:15.980 --> 15:19.300 We have rules against DocDrop, and we don't allow people to do that, because it's... 15:19.300 --> 15:21.140 That's not impressive, you know? 15:21.140 --> 15:28.580 Playing the joke on somebody and getting their information and then go, ha-ha, look how easy it was, you got phished, I tricked you, here's your page, 15:28.640 --> 15:29.700 back, end of joke. 15:29.800 --> 15:31.340 That's how, you know, that part's fun. 15:31.420 --> 15:33.540 That's funny, no problem with that. 15:34.360 --> 15:38.640 But, putting up the GoatSee, I mean, what if that was a kid's page, or what if someone's kid's... 15:38.640 --> 15:40.920 Oh, let me look at Mommy's MySpace, or whatever. 15:42.440 --> 15:42.760 Yeah. 15:43.480 --> 15:44.560 That's probably... 15:44.560 --> 15:46.840 Alright, look, that was a stretch. 15:46.900 --> 15:48.280 I realized that as I said it. 15:48.280 --> 15:50.280 That was kind of dumb, but... 15:50.280 --> 15:51.380 But, whatever. 15:51.380 --> 15:55.900 Oh, hey, they can't all be winners. 15:56.720 --> 15:58.320 Just make some grope fast, that's all. 15:58.640 --> 16:01.520 Fast and hard. 16:02.080 --> 16:02.500 That's right. 16:03.080 --> 16:03.980 Oh, man. 16:04.180 --> 16:07.120 Some kid's going to grow up and end up being traumatized for that. 16:07.740 --> 16:09.800 But, yeah, that's just, to me, that's not impressive. 16:09.940 --> 16:12.320 That doesn't really do much for me. 16:12.380 --> 16:17.560 But, I guess, to turn some positive out of the whole thing, you know, we talked about it on the phishing episode, 16:17.560 --> 16:20.940 there were clues that should have tipped you off to that being a phishing site. 16:21.100 --> 16:22.600 I mean, you've got to look at the URL up there. 16:22.680 --> 16:25.800 You've got to look for, you know, if it's got Yahoo ads or whatever it is on there. 16:26.180 --> 16:28.380 make sure you're at the page you're supposed to be at. 16:28.740 --> 16:29.020 Yeah. 16:29.120 --> 16:33.260 You know, there's lots of anti-phishing plug-ins and toolbars and stuff that'll help. 16:34.440 --> 16:36.860 Yeah, IE7 has something like that now, too. 16:36.880 --> 16:38.380 I just installed it today, and it's, uh... 16:38.380 --> 16:38.840 Yeah, something like that. 16:38.840 --> 16:39.920 Yeah, that's kind of weird. 16:40.080 --> 16:41.020 Yeah, I installed it last night, too. 16:41.020 --> 16:43.720 So, yeah, he just, like, schooled some noobs, so... 16:43.720 --> 16:45.560 Yeah, schooled some noobs. 16:46.500 --> 16:48.260 Did you just say schooled some noobs? 16:48.260 --> 16:49.600 I did. I did. I'm sorry. 16:49.840 --> 16:50.580 Oh, my gosh. 16:51.060 --> 16:54.520 All right, email number two this week comes from FreakMac. 16:54.520 --> 16:57.840 FreakMac says, hey, stank, and co-pimp. 16:57.960 --> 16:58.620 That would be you. 16:59.280 --> 16:59.760 Yeah. 17:00.240 --> 17:06.280 You stated last episode that there is no way to get a virtual machine to run faster than running natively. 17:07.500 --> 17:11.860 In 99% of cases, this is true, but there is one case where it is not true. 17:11.860 --> 17:18.420 Booting Windows XP in the Parallels virtual machine is faster than natively booting into Windows on a MacBook. 17:18.680 --> 17:20.280 Now, let me stop for a second. 17:20.280 --> 17:26.040 Now, Parallels is the name of a piece of software for Macintosh, Parallels Virtual Machine. 17:26.940 --> 17:38.700 And the tiny URL to the article he's referring to is Y24N, as in Nancy, D, as in donkey, and L, as in lover. 17:40.180 --> 17:41.240 Nancy donkey. 17:41.740 --> 17:42.920 Nancy donkey lover. 17:42.980 --> 17:44.140 That's the name of the show, yeah. 17:44.140 --> 17:47.500 The Nancy donkey lover episode of Venera Radio. 17:48.140 --> 17:48.500 Awesome. 17:49.420 --> 17:49.820 Oh. 17:51.320 --> 17:57.160 So, he says, I have no clue how the hell they do it, but there's even video on YouTube of the two booting side by side. 17:57.200 --> 17:59.880 If you need to see it to believe it, I definitely didn't. 18:00.120 --> 18:01.680 Keep up the kick-ass show. 18:02.200 --> 18:02.560 Late. 18:02.560 --> 18:06.380 So, yes, Freak Mac, I went to that site. 18:06.760 --> 18:08.120 Thank you for the email, first of all. 18:08.460 --> 18:19.000 I read the article, and yes, what you stated is true, that it boots faster using Parallels, but first of all, it was on a Mac. 18:19.060 --> 18:25.360 So, you're throwing in a non, well, I'll say non-standard hardware, a different piece of hardware than what we generally were referring to. 18:25.360 --> 18:35.220 We were pretty much talking about Intel, but anyway, besides that, you're talking about, the article was talking about, or had some benchmarking on different things. 18:35.740 --> 18:42.020 Booting was faster, but everything else was quite a bit slower, if I recall, if it even functioned at all. 18:42.360 --> 18:43.840 Some of the tests, they didn't run at all. 18:43.920 --> 18:50.180 I think playing Quake 4 on there didn't even work because there was no DirectX support in parallel virtual machines. 18:50.180 --> 18:57.040 So, what's your, you know, your statement of 99% of the cases, of course, nothing's ever 100% of the time, right? 18:59.800 --> 19:00.200 Right. 19:01.900 --> 19:02.300 Hesitantly. 19:03.880 --> 19:07.560 So, I actually did ask Not Theory about this to see what he thought of it, too. 19:08.880 --> 19:14.780 And he made me realize that, yeah, actually, there could be a very valid explanation for even that boot time being faster. 19:15.160 --> 19:17.900 And CNET may not have even thought about this the more we talked about it. 19:17.900 --> 19:30.600 But the way, what happens with these virtual machines is you can actually, if you already had the virtual machine existing and you create it for the first time, you can pause that virtual machine. 19:30.680 --> 19:34.620 When you stop the virtual machine, it will basically stop and save itself where it's at. 19:35.680 --> 19:39.680 Kind of like, think of it like when you do a hibernation of your Windows desktop, for example. 19:40.200 --> 19:40.900 It hibernates. 19:40.960 --> 19:42.900 All it's doing is going to write stuff off the disk. 19:42.900 --> 19:46.520 When you pause that virtual machine, it's going to write all that stuff out to disk. 19:46.520 --> 19:52.240 And then when you go back and reboot and have it come up back in that virtual machine, all it's really doing is reloading. 19:52.340 --> 19:58.040 It's coming back out of hibernation, which even in the Windows world, everybody knows you come back out of hibernation faster. 19:58.160 --> 19:59.440 That's the point of hibernation. 19:59.800 --> 20:03.500 You come out faster because you're not doing a full boot from scratch. 20:03.880 --> 20:05.040 It does save time. 20:05.340 --> 20:11.500 And a virtual machine booting could very easily be explained because or if that's what happens. 20:11.500 --> 20:17.500 So that could be a very valid explanation, and their benchmarks could be simply wrong because they didn't even realize they were doing that. 20:18.520 --> 20:18.780 Interesting. 20:19.080 --> 20:20.000 Does that make sense, right? 20:20.600 --> 20:20.940 Sure. 20:20.940 --> 20:27.120 So, and I kind of mentioned this briefly earlier. 20:27.820 --> 20:30.560 Oh, I'm going to put you on the spot in just a second, by the way. 20:30.580 --> 20:31.220 I just thought of something. 20:32.820 --> 20:36.740 Don't belittle the fact that hardware and the drivers play a big role in this. 20:36.800 --> 20:39.220 The virtual drivers for the hardware are going to be different. 20:39.220 --> 20:44.020 So, one may work better than another, may be more efficiently written than another with. 20:44.340 --> 20:48.400 So, the more, well, let's call it common hardware, for lack of a better word. 20:48.500 --> 20:50.720 Like, for example, we're generally talking about Intel. 20:50.940 --> 20:52.740 They're the predominant Intel AMD. 20:53.840 --> 21:01.180 Common, large hardware manufacturers that are going to have better drivers, more developed drivers, newer drivers. 21:01.180 --> 21:09.220 It's generally going to be a little bit better than some obscure thing where it's loading generic and loading a lot of memory overhead and a lot of other stuff. 21:09.520 --> 21:15.480 So, when you start throwing in different types of hardware, like a MacBook, you know, that's also a factor in the whole thing. 21:15.560 --> 21:16.660 Now, how big, I don't know. 21:16.760 --> 21:18.360 You'd have to do a lot of studies on that. 21:18.360 --> 21:22.900 But, to put you on the spot, like I was just saying, so it just popped into my head. 21:23.660 --> 21:31.340 I'm going to put you on the spot and say what, and ask you what you think about Macintosh and Macintosh hardware and Apple as a company, I guess. 21:32.720 --> 21:35.760 Yeah, so I'm a recent convert, I guess. 21:35.900 --> 21:36.380 Oh, no. 21:36.380 --> 21:40.580 We were in San Francisco not too long ago, and you pop out of Powell Street, and there it is. 21:40.620 --> 21:45.160 You know, it's glowing, and the birds are chirping, and so I picked up a G4. 21:45.160 --> 21:48.300 So, yeah, I guess this was, I don't know, six months ago. 21:48.400 --> 21:50.460 It was a while ago, and it's just, I love it. 21:50.520 --> 21:51.720 I love it that it's small. 21:51.880 --> 21:53.200 I'm glad I got one before Intel. 21:54.200 --> 21:54.400 Really? 21:54.420 --> 21:56.000 It's an elegant operating system. 21:56.240 --> 21:59.180 You know, it kind of reads your mind, and then there's Unix. 21:59.340 --> 22:00.040 It's just great. 22:00.300 --> 22:01.580 I spend most of my time with the shell. 22:01.680 --> 22:06.100 Otherwise, I think 512 is not quiet enough for that. 22:06.760 --> 22:07.560 512, you mean that? 22:07.580 --> 22:09.120 I have enjoyed it immensely. 22:09.680 --> 22:18.160 Now, is it, see, my thing is, is it doing anything, first of all, the OSX, OSX, no doubt, 22:18.240 --> 22:23.040 I agree with, seems to be a really good operating system, very intuitive and all that, but you 22:23.040 --> 22:25.240 said you're glad you got one before Intel came out. 22:25.280 --> 22:26.360 I find that curious. 22:26.520 --> 22:27.880 Can you explain, can you expand on that? 22:27.980 --> 22:29.160 Why do you, why do you? 22:29.160 --> 22:30.780 Well, there's a few reasons. 22:30.880 --> 22:32.120 One, I think this one's a little smaller. 22:32.120 --> 22:37.380 I know it's a little thicker, but I'd rather have it, you know, a smaller footprint, you 22:37.380 --> 22:37.580 know. 22:39.520 --> 22:42.880 Also, I know the, the screens are glossy, right? 22:42.940 --> 22:45.060 I wouldn't, I wouldn't buy the, the expensive ones. 22:45.120 --> 22:48.000 I'd probably buy a cheap, you know, the iBook or the i, for whatever. 22:48.100 --> 22:48.860 I don't know what the new one's called. 22:49.020 --> 22:51.940 And I know those, those screens are glossy, and I wouldn't want that. 22:51.940 --> 22:57.220 Um, cause I'm definitely, I'm all over the place, inside, outside, whatever, so. 22:57.800 --> 22:58.100 Right. 22:58.120 --> 23:02.780 Um, and I just, I didn't want Intel, I just wanted a, you know, RPC. 23:02.960 --> 23:05.120 And also, there's, you know, the software, it's mature. 23:05.260 --> 23:07.280 There's just tons and tons of packages, you know. 23:07.280 --> 23:11.360 I've got all the, you know, I've got Fink and ports, and there's so many things already 23:11.360 --> 23:14.980 developed for it, it's, you know, uh, it's no brainer. 23:15.280 --> 23:16.440 Yeah, software-wise, yeah. 23:16.520 --> 23:17.880 But is it worth the price difference? 23:18.000 --> 23:21.480 I mean, my biggest issue is, cause I want one myself to play with. 23:21.480 --> 23:23.480 Nothing fancy, just a low-end machine. 23:24.260 --> 23:28.060 And when those Mac minis came out, I was excited, cause I thought I'd be able to finally get 23:28.060 --> 23:30.480 a low-end cheap machine, but they're still overpriced. 23:31.840 --> 23:32.200 Yeah. 23:32.500 --> 23:33.780 Especially for what they are. 23:33.900 --> 23:38.940 Yeah, for the equivalent hardware, I mean, for the same $600 for the iMac, or Mini Mac, 23:39.020 --> 23:40.880 or whatever, Mini Me, whatever they're called. 23:41.400 --> 23:41.720 Right. 23:41.780 --> 23:44.840 I could get a pretty doggone good PC. 23:45.460 --> 23:49.640 Well, the thing is, they're, they seem to be well-engineered. 23:49.760 --> 23:50.900 I mean, it's, it's held up. 23:50.900 --> 23:52.120 It's been to Tokyo and back. 23:52.660 --> 23:57.200 Um, except for a squeak and the arrow keys occasionally, it's just really solid. 23:57.200 --> 23:58.540 And it's just, it's slick. 23:58.660 --> 24:02.260 You know, there's a button underneath that you can press and light up the LEDs and tell 24:02.260 --> 24:03.320 you where your battery is. 24:03.400 --> 24:04.740 Battery life is great, by the way. 24:04.820 --> 24:05.840 It's just, it's amazing. 24:06.520 --> 24:09.440 Um, it's, I think it's worth it. 24:09.440 --> 24:16.900 And they're not that, um, if you're gonna, you usually get what you pay for, and I think 24:16.900 --> 24:18.860 if you can spend a little extra, I think it's worth it. 24:18.920 --> 24:21.160 Get the, you know, get a low end with a little more memory, maybe. 24:21.500 --> 24:23.120 You know, with my, I had some discounts. 24:23.120 --> 24:25.100 I only paid $900 for this one, so. 24:25.100 --> 24:26.040 Oh, my goodness. 24:26.740 --> 24:27.040 Yeah. 24:27.240 --> 24:27.540 What? 24:28.220 --> 24:29.900 $900 for that? 24:30.740 --> 24:32.040 What do you, what's wrong with that? 24:32.100 --> 24:33.240 Oh, my gosh. 24:33.300 --> 24:35.580 I could have bought two and, oh, my goodness. 24:36.480 --> 24:36.900 What? 24:36.900 --> 24:41.460 I, I'm not even willing to pay the $600 for the Mac Mini, whatever, and it doesn't even 24:41.460 --> 24:42.220 come with anything. 24:42.360 --> 24:43.960 But it's not a, it's not a laptop. 24:44.520 --> 24:45.960 Oh, jeez. 24:46.380 --> 24:47.520 Whatever, dude. 24:47.620 --> 24:48.260 Trust me. 24:48.340 --> 24:53.520 That is way, your money, everybody listen, your money is way better spent buying a low end 24:53.520 --> 24:57.700 Mac notebook than buying some crap Dell. 24:57.920 --> 25:00.800 High end, high end Intel notebook of some kind? 25:01.080 --> 25:01.540 Whatever. 25:01.860 --> 25:03.400 Dell, HP, whatever. 25:03.400 --> 25:08.420 You know, you've got, now you've got the fast processors, just like all the Intel people, 25:08.640 --> 25:08.980 so. 25:10.320 --> 25:13.500 I, it's, you're, yeah, I think you're way better off. 25:13.780 --> 25:14.580 Oh, my goodness. 25:14.720 --> 25:17.000 Well, you're on your own on that one. 25:18.280 --> 25:22.800 See, that's the hard thing for me, is I do like the design and the look of them. 25:23.020 --> 25:24.200 I do like OS X. 25:24.380 --> 25:26.240 I just wish they were a little cheaper. 25:27.340 --> 25:27.740 Gosh. 25:28.040 --> 25:29.140 Well, you know. 25:29.880 --> 25:32.700 Proprietary company, they're the Sony, they're just like I feel about Sony. 25:32.700 --> 25:37.100 Proprietary hardware, proprietary stuff that they put out, they don't want to play well 25:37.100 --> 25:38.680 with others and cooperate and so. 25:38.680 --> 25:44.260 Yeah, but Sony makes crap and so far, personally, I've found it to be high quality. 25:44.680 --> 25:49.060 Wow, so they're one minor step up from Sony, but that's still, yeah. 25:49.300 --> 25:52.400 Anyway, you can buy me one for Christmas, how about that? 25:52.760 --> 25:53.540 Okie dokie. 25:53.700 --> 25:56.480 Yeah, I'll be waiting, I'll be waiting by the mailbox for that. 25:56.480 --> 26:02.820 Alright, so there you go, we'll get, every time we have, every time we talk about it 26:02.820 --> 26:06.460 on the show, get everybody's opinion, there's inevitable hate mail that comes back from it. 26:06.480 --> 26:08.360 So let's see what the feedback is from this one. 26:08.400 --> 26:08.620 Sure. 26:08.820 --> 26:11.860 Although you actually defended it, and I'm the one that's going to get hate mail this time, 26:11.900 --> 26:13.320 but you know what, whatever. 26:14.020 --> 26:16.560 Alright, our next email this week comes from Victor. 26:17.760 --> 26:19.380 Victor says, hi Stan. 26:20.020 --> 26:21.440 I guess that's Stank. 26:21.440 --> 26:22.520 Where was that? 26:22.740 --> 26:26.060 I think that's, I think that's the K next to the comma. 26:26.060 --> 26:26.560 Is it vicious? 26:26.940 --> 26:27.700 Oh, there we go. 26:27.860 --> 26:28.640 Hi Stan. 26:28.940 --> 26:29.660 No, Victor. 26:29.660 --> 26:31.180 I'm still calling you Stan from now on. 26:31.680 --> 26:34.480 I guess the comma and the K are next to each other. 26:34.520 --> 26:36.600 No, you can't call me, you can't drop my docs, I mean. 26:38.020 --> 26:39.620 Sorry Stan, I won't do that. 26:39.880 --> 26:41.440 Alright, so, hi Stank. 26:41.960 --> 26:43.780 Nice show, keep up the good work. 26:44.040 --> 26:47.960 Just writing to ask, don't know, maybe I missed it, because I listened to this show. 26:47.960 --> 26:48.920 Can I buy a period? 26:48.920 --> 26:49.340 Hold on. 26:50.180 --> 26:52.260 I'm going to edit this on the fly. 26:53.220 --> 26:53.720 Hi Stank. 26:54.140 --> 26:55.740 Nice show, keep up the good work. 26:56.380 --> 27:00.640 I'm just writing to ask, I don't know, maybe I missed it, because I listened to the show 27:00.640 --> 27:03.920 at my work, but what is not theory, I can't even fix this. 27:04.060 --> 27:10.980 What is not theories, the not theories machines specs on which he's running all that virtual 27:10.980 --> 27:11.320 stuff? 27:11.400 --> 27:12.260 I'm so confused. 27:12.740 --> 27:17.880 What are not theories machines specs on which he's running all the virtual stuff? 27:17.880 --> 27:18.320 Okay. 27:18.540 --> 27:19.900 Thanks and shouts from the UK. 27:20.960 --> 27:21.540 Alright, Victor. 27:21.700 --> 27:23.700 So, I did ask Not Theory about the specs. 27:23.800 --> 27:25.360 I kind of figured that's what you were getting at there. 27:26.100 --> 27:33.640 And Not Theory reports that his two laptops that he runs are both 1.00 gigahertz with 2 27:33.640 --> 27:34.900 gigs of RAM each. 27:35.060 --> 27:39.420 RAM is the big thing because you're shaving it off for each virtual interface that you have, 27:39.420 --> 27:41.360 so more RAM is good. 27:42.200 --> 27:48.820 And he has one Pentium D 3 gigahertz with 2.5 gigs of RAM, the desktop that he uses. 27:49.080 --> 27:52.920 So, and he moves the images from one to the other, but mostly when I talk to him, he's 27:52.920 --> 27:55.560 always on the go with the laptop stuff. 27:55.560 --> 28:01.540 So, and he also even went on to say that generally what he's doing with his virtual machines is 28:01.540 --> 28:05.600 assigning 512 RAM, 512 megabytes of RAM to each one of them. 28:05.680 --> 28:06.640 That's what he's shaving off. 28:06.640 --> 28:13.440 And sometimes if he's running a different Linux virtual machine that he'll even do less. 28:14.040 --> 28:19.400 I think he said he was running Nopix or, was it Nopix or Kubuntu? 28:19.640 --> 28:24.740 I think it was Nopix or something with only a 128 memory virtual machine. 28:25.260 --> 28:27.980 But he said normally any Linux he'll just open up 256. 28:28.480 --> 28:30.960 So, that's kind of a cool thing to know. 28:31.100 --> 28:31.640 So, there you go. 28:31.640 --> 28:39.020 And also, if nobody knew, those machines are just extensions of his ghost because not there 28:39.020 --> 28:40.600 is a cadre of evil robots. 28:41.100 --> 28:42.320 So, I don't know if anybody knew that. 28:42.340 --> 28:44.920 Well, if they didn't, they know now. 28:45.180 --> 28:45.440 Right. 28:45.500 --> 28:47.760 He's like a superior being. 28:48.480 --> 28:51.520 You'd think he'd get more done if he was an entire cadre of robots. 28:53.120 --> 28:54.220 Oh, man. 28:54.340 --> 28:57.740 I'm going to get paybacks from that one. 28:58.160 --> 28:58.800 All right. 28:59.560 --> 29:01.020 Next email this week. 29:01.020 --> 29:01.800 Oh, where did I? 29:01.920 --> 29:04.280 I lost my spot here from Sid Vicious. 29:05.100 --> 29:09.680 Sid Vicious says, your powers of telepathy continue to amaze me. 29:09.800 --> 29:10.180 Well, I know. 29:10.260 --> 29:11.780 I amaze myself sometimes there, Sid. 29:11.840 --> 29:14.700 It's hard being right and perfect all the time. 29:14.800 --> 29:17.440 It really, sometimes I just, it's really hard. 29:18.220 --> 29:18.640 All right. 29:18.760 --> 29:22.980 He says, I was actually planning on writing in to ask you guys if you could do an ep on 29:22.980 --> 29:25.700 virtualization and now I don't have to. 29:26.920 --> 29:28.520 Yeah, that was not various powers. 29:28.720 --> 29:30.000 And what was he, a cadre of what? 29:30.000 --> 29:34.300 I think Archangel came out with that because he's there too. 29:34.660 --> 29:37.660 A cadre of evil robots because it's just, he's just, it's nutty. 29:37.880 --> 29:46.220 The dude's like, oh yeah, I'll like scrape all of Nampa and like parse it for your cell phone. 29:46.440 --> 29:47.580 A million things at once. 29:47.600 --> 29:48.160 In like 10 minutes. 29:48.480 --> 29:49.160 What the hell? 29:49.160 --> 29:53.100 Yep, he's juggling websites, writing programs, developing things. 29:53.120 --> 29:53.480 Yeah, it's crazy. 29:53.820 --> 29:54.660 A million things at once. 29:54.680 --> 29:56.540 It can't just be, it's not a single human. 29:56.880 --> 29:58.200 Well, that's why he's my internet boyfriend. 29:59.320 --> 30:01.320 Sid Vicious goes on to say. 30:01.660 --> 30:02.580 He's a good daddy. 30:02.580 --> 30:09.160 One question I've always had about virtualized systems is about combating the performance 30:09.160 --> 30:09.540 hit. 30:10.080 --> 30:14.460 Seems to me that one way to get around the performance decrease would be to run your virtual machines 30:14.460 --> 30:15.520 on a cluster. 30:16.100 --> 30:19.900 Now, I don't really know all that much about clustering or virtualization, but it seems 30:19.900 --> 30:21.040 like a logical step. 30:21.040 --> 30:25.060 I've tried to find some info on the subject with little success, and everybody I've talked 30:25.060 --> 30:29.320 to about it seems to think I'm crazy and it wouldn't work, but I just don't see why. 30:29.780 --> 30:32.380 Wondering if you guys might have any input on the idea. 30:32.860 --> 30:34.920 Anyhow, thanks for providing the great show and keep it up. 30:35.020 --> 30:35.660 Talk to you later. 30:36.320 --> 30:41.040 Sid, PS, shouts to everyone involved in the BinRev Mentorship Program. 30:41.220 --> 30:42.720 It's a good thing. 30:43.580 --> 30:45.960 And yes, the mentorship program is a good thing. 30:46.740 --> 30:50.460 Anybody who doesn't know about it already or wants to get more involved, you can email 30:50.460 --> 30:52.960 mentorship at binrev.com. 30:53.040 --> 30:56.420 That's all one word, mentorship at binrev.com. 30:56.480 --> 30:59.220 If you want to be a mentor or mentee, get involved in the program. 30:59.400 --> 31:00.760 It's very, very cool. 31:01.480 --> 31:01.700 Yeah. 31:02.220 --> 31:04.140 Definitely props to Verbal. 31:04.400 --> 31:05.040 Verbal's, yeah. 31:05.180 --> 31:06.700 Verbal's doing a lot of stuff as well. 31:07.720 --> 31:11.520 Juggling that and the IRC and everybody's doing a lot of stuff, man. 31:11.520 --> 31:13.020 There's some amazing people in this community. 31:14.160 --> 31:14.680 I'm sorry. 31:14.760 --> 31:19.140 Was he talking about clustering for virtual machines or virtual clustering? 31:19.140 --> 31:26.620 I believe he was talking about virtual machines on a cluster for the benefit of speeding it up 31:26.620 --> 31:31.640 or getting better power behind it, which really isn't going to work. 31:31.740 --> 31:34.520 And I did talk to NotTheory about this as well. 31:35.020 --> 31:39.380 And you're trying to get a – first of all, his first question, 31:39.460 --> 31:42.840 and I'm pretty sure that what he's asking in this is about the CPU benefit. 31:42.840 --> 31:47.020 But NotTheory asked that question if you're referring to clustering for CPU benefit 31:47.020 --> 31:48.800 or disk clustering. 31:48.960 --> 31:50.100 So we'll address both here. 31:51.460 --> 31:57.440 As far as the CPU benefit, there's not really much to be gained because virtualization is – 31:57.440 --> 32:01.120 well, and the way we were talking about it and the way the majority of people use it 32:01.120 --> 32:02.200 is from within Windows. 32:03.040 --> 32:04.940 And you need to boot from a local drive. 32:04.980 --> 32:07.940 So you're always going to have that bottleneck of having to boot from something. 32:08.380 --> 32:10.060 You're going to be booting from your local drive. 32:10.060 --> 32:13.600 I even asked NotTheory, you know, what about booting from a flash drive to speed it up 32:13.600 --> 32:18.400 or booting from a bootable Linux distro like Nopix or something along those lines. 32:19.680 --> 32:24.020 And it's still got the bottom line of starting the machine up at boot. 32:24.120 --> 32:26.180 So you're not really going to do a whole lot with that. 32:26.440 --> 32:29.900 And clustering it all off is not – you're just not going to gain that much benefit from it. 32:29.900 --> 32:35.940 However, if you're talking about disk clustering, according to NotTheory, 32:36.000 --> 32:39.480 that's something he sees quite frequently actually in the business world 32:39.480 --> 32:43.780 where response time is critical in some cases. 32:43.780 --> 32:45.240 It's very important to what they're doing. 32:45.340 --> 32:53.480 It's very common for them to set up disk farms with just gigabytes and terabytes upon terabytes of hard drive. 32:53.480 --> 32:59.880 And they will set up disk clustering while they'll do striping and use those disks in such a way 32:59.880 --> 33:04.180 where they can increase the read-write performance and the throughput of data back to your virtual machines. 33:04.360 --> 33:07.440 So you can get better performance out of them once they're up and running. 33:07.720 --> 33:12.660 But as far as clustering to get some kind of increased speed or benefit from the CPU, 33:13.620 --> 33:18.700 he seems to think, and it sounds right to me, that there's not much you're going to get out of doing that. 33:19.560 --> 33:19.920 Interesting. 33:19.920 --> 33:24.540 So there you go, and let's see. 33:24.600 --> 33:26.400 How are we on time for this last email? 33:26.580 --> 33:29.720 We're about 30-something minutes in here. 33:29.760 --> 33:32.480 I'm going to read this quickly because I thought this was a pretty decent email. 33:33.100 --> 33:35.400 And this email comes from Novin. 33:37.220 --> 33:37.980 Novin says, 33:38.060 --> 33:38.900 Hey there, Stank Dog. 33:38.960 --> 33:43.180 I'm a big radio fan, but currently I'm on a three-month assignment to Indonesia. 33:44.100 --> 33:45.300 You ever been to Indonesia? 33:46.140 --> 33:46.480 No. 33:46.700 --> 33:46.840 No. 33:46.840 --> 33:51.440 All right, which leaves me well out of range of any radio stations I can understand. 33:51.960 --> 33:57.600 So I've been getting into internet radio in a big way and listening to a lot of shows. 33:58.140 --> 34:01.200 Yours is definitely one of the best out there, interesting, informative, blah, blah, blah. 34:01.600 --> 34:06.220 I only discovered you three weeks ago, and I've been steadily working my way back through your archives. 34:06.320 --> 34:12.540 Your most recent show about virtualization intrigued me because recently I've been getting into virtualization in a big way. 34:12.540 --> 34:15.060 I've just finished rolling out Kubuntu. 34:15.320 --> 34:17.140 That's why I had Kubuntu in my head from earlier. 34:18.560 --> 34:26.820 I've finished rolling out Kubuntu across an organization, and I had to configure and test a custom install and then train the users in the new OS. 34:27.180 --> 34:29.460 There was no way I was touching my Gentoo install. 34:29.460 --> 34:34.680 VMware let me do all of the above in a virtual environment on my laptop. 34:35.160 --> 34:46.780 The snapshot feature let me make all kinds of crazy changes during training and then roll it back to a clean install for the next group, which is one of the things that we really emphasize as one of the coolest features. 34:46.780 --> 35:00.140 He also goes on, he says, I also use it to keep copies of various client machines on my laptop, so when someone emails me with a problem, I can play around in my virtual environment that mirrors theirs. 35:00.240 --> 35:01.100 Now, I don't think we mentioned that. 35:01.120 --> 35:01.660 That's a good idea. 35:02.120 --> 35:09.420 Figure out the best way to solve it and then log in and fix the problem with minimal disruption and risk to the production server. 35:10.240 --> 35:11.880 I don't think we mentioned that at all. 35:12.000 --> 35:13.140 I didn't think about that. 35:13.200 --> 35:14.480 That is a really good application. 35:14.500 --> 35:15.800 Minimizing risk is a good thing. 35:15.800 --> 35:19.120 Absolutely, and it's going to tie in very much to our topic tonight, isn't it? 35:19.320 --> 35:19.800 Mm-hmm. 35:19.920 --> 35:20.740 Our main topic. 35:21.940 --> 35:22.600 Let's see. 35:23.060 --> 35:32.080 He goes on to say, and of course, it's handy to keep a Windows install for testing applications before recommending them to clients. 35:32.540 --> 35:37.320 A side effect is this, is that I can keep some games in there that run better under VMware than Wine. 35:38.040 --> 35:38.900 Wait a minute. 35:38.940 --> 35:40.380 Didn't Wine just change its name, by the way? 35:41.400 --> 35:42.080 Today, guys. 35:42.640 --> 35:44.040 Or maybe that's just for the games. 35:44.060 --> 35:44.440 I'm not sure. 35:44.440 --> 35:45.340 Oh, okay. 35:45.800 --> 35:46.980 Under VMware than Wine. 35:46.980 --> 35:52.960 And when playing, I can just suspend the machine and, quote, pause the game at any stage or point. 35:53.060 --> 35:55.200 Then a few days later, I can resume my game. 35:55.260 --> 35:55.820 That's pretty neat. 35:56.140 --> 35:58.480 In the time it takes for a machine to resume. 35:58.720 --> 35:59.640 That's really cool. 35:59.760 --> 36:00.520 That is kind of cool. 36:00.580 --> 36:02.500 Much quicker than booting up and loading a program. 36:02.800 --> 36:07.760 And actually, that's further support for what we mentioned earlier about quicker boot time. 36:08.240 --> 36:09.480 Exactly what he's saying here. 36:09.480 --> 36:14.080 So, as far as performance, there is a bit of overhead, but it is generally manageable. 36:14.580 --> 36:20.960 My laptop has a core duo 1.8 gigahertz CPU, 1 gig of RAM, and a 7,200 RPM hard disk. 36:20.960 --> 36:30.360 I can run two virtual machines, Kubuntu and Win 2000, and a few apps on the core system, Gen 2, comfortably. 36:30.780 --> 36:32.900 The biggest bottleneck would be the hard disk. 36:33.140 --> 36:37.380 RAM usage is managed well, and the CPU is taxed far less than you would expect. 36:37.380 --> 36:43.400 Well, I'm glad I did read this, because that also defends what we said earlier about the hard disk being the bottleneck, 36:43.540 --> 36:47.280 and disk clustering and disk farming could, of course, speed that up. 36:47.840 --> 36:48.120 Mm-hmm. 36:48.800 --> 36:54.440 By the way, Microsoft's Vista licensing for virtual machines is going to change things significantly. 36:55.260 --> 36:59.800 Home Basic and Home Premium will not be licensed at all for virtual machines. 37:00.420 --> 37:04.720 Nothing technically stops you, except maybe an update to their SPP? 37:05.820 --> 37:06.240 Don't know. 37:06.240 --> 37:07.120 Don't know. 37:07.380 --> 37:09.560 But you are breaking the license by doing it. 37:10.240 --> 37:13.400 As for the other versions, you can only transfer the license once. 37:13.400 --> 37:18.680 So if you install in a VM and later wipe it and reinstall, you are now stuck. 37:19.160 --> 37:20.780 Doing it again breaks the license. 37:20.980 --> 37:26.280 Developers with an MSDN subscription can run unlimited virtual machines for development purposes 37:26.280 --> 37:30.780 with only a single license, and data centers have their own rules that I'm not clear on. 37:31.200 --> 37:36.240 So once again, Microsoft shaft their users by killing the potential to legally take advantage 37:36.240 --> 37:38.420 of a great new technology. 37:38.420 --> 37:38.860 Yay. 37:38.860 --> 37:39.360 Yay. 37:39.360 --> 37:39.560 Yay. 37:39.560 --> 37:39.640 Yay. 37:39.640 --> 37:39.660 Yay. 37:39.660 --> 37:39.680 Yay. 37:39.680 --> 37:39.860 Yay. 37:39.860 --> 37:40.460 Yay. 37:40.460 --> 37:40.740 Yeah. 37:40.740 --> 37:42.760 Well, I've got MSDN, so fuck the rest of you. 37:42.760 --> 37:48.880 I love VMware Workstation and think it is definitely worth the money. 37:48.880 --> 37:54.020 However, if you are cheap, VMware player is okay, but you can't create the range of virtual machines 37:54.020 --> 37:54.580 and images. 37:54.580 --> 38:00.720 One solution is to install QEMU, an open source virtual solution you didn't mention, and create 38:00.720 --> 38:05.580 machines and images you can then use in VM player, which has much better performance. 38:06.200 --> 38:07.220 I know I've rambled on. 38:07.300 --> 38:11.700 This is a long email, and I would expect you to read it all, but maybe all out loud, but 38:11.700 --> 38:14.200 maybe something I've said would be of use or interest to your listeners. 38:14.360 --> 38:15.320 Keep rocking. 38:15.600 --> 38:19.860 Well, I definitely read it all, obviously, because there was a good email. 38:19.860 --> 38:20.580 Okay, what was it? 38:20.660 --> 38:24.520 That was only like six minutes or so, so it wasn't so bad, and it did have good stuff in 38:24.520 --> 38:24.620 there. 38:24.760 --> 38:26.220 That was a very good email. 38:26.600 --> 38:28.420 And, shouts to Indonesia. 38:28.700 --> 38:29.560 I don't know. 38:29.620 --> 38:34.400 I still get a kick out of getting emails from weird and, well, weird places, meaning non-U.S. 38:34.480 --> 38:35.740 places, places I'll never tell. 38:35.840 --> 38:38.140 If it's weird, they'll come from the U.S. 38:38.220 --> 38:39.920 Yeah, I was going to say, not weird in a negative way. 38:40.040 --> 38:42.680 Weird meaning places I never expected to receive email from. 38:42.740 --> 38:43.280 That's what I mean. 38:44.460 --> 38:45.020 All right. 38:45.120 --> 38:48.680 Well, Mr. Parallel, can I call you Dool? 38:49.580 --> 38:50.140 You may. 38:50.360 --> 38:50.600 Okay. 38:50.760 --> 38:53.540 Dool, what are we going to talk about on the show tonight? 38:53.640 --> 38:56.280 Stan, we're going to talk about, oh, crap. 38:56.360 --> 38:56.580 You know what? 38:56.580 --> 38:57.960 I want to close my door real quick. 38:59.000 --> 38:59.240 Why? 38:59.280 --> 38:59.640 You're naked? 38:59.740 --> 39:04.300 No, we're going to, as we mentioned earlier, we're going to talk about risk and analyzing 39:04.300 --> 39:04.840 risk. 39:05.200 --> 39:06.980 In terms of physical security. 39:07.380 --> 39:12.840 Well, ultimately, it's stemming from physical security, but you can apply it to many things. 39:13.080 --> 39:13.480 Okay. 39:14.380 --> 39:14.780 Explain. 39:14.780 --> 39:18.680 Well, overall, let me look at my time real quick. 39:19.720 --> 39:30.400 So, overall, this is really kind of the tail end of systems engineering, right? 39:30.460 --> 39:37.220 When you need to, for physical security systems, for example, you need to determine the objectives 39:37.220 --> 39:38.880 of the physical protection system. 39:38.960 --> 39:39.800 What is it going to do? 39:39.800 --> 39:43.280 So, you've got to design it, and then you've got to evaluate it. 39:43.620 --> 39:49.620 If I may, right up front, I want to reference a great book, probably the definitive book, 39:50.260 --> 39:54.360 The Design and Evaluation of Physical Protection Systems by M.L. Garcia. 39:54.360 --> 39:58.960 It really, it's the Bible, okay? 39:59.600 --> 40:04.960 So, referencing that, go by it, and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. 40:05.400 --> 40:09.080 So, again, we're talking systems engineering, basic steps, right? 40:09.140 --> 40:10.380 It seems very, very simple. 40:10.760 --> 40:16.560 Now, at the end of that evaluation, one of the things you need to do is assess risk, right? 40:16.560 --> 40:21.920 You need to analyze the risk, and then, okay, find out what's acceptable, and find out what 40:21.920 --> 40:24.880 you can do with the resources you have to mitigate risk. 40:25.220 --> 40:26.640 And that's what we're going to be talking about tonight. 40:26.860 --> 40:29.420 There's going to be an equation, okay? 40:29.540 --> 40:33.060 It's not a hard one, but we're going to be as technical as possible. 40:33.480 --> 40:35.240 Oh, man, there's going to be, is there going to be a quiz? 40:36.620 --> 40:36.980 Yes. 40:37.160 --> 40:38.020 Will this be on the test? 40:38.520 --> 40:39.380 Yes, there will be. 40:39.480 --> 40:40.880 Yeah, it won't be bad, though. 40:41.100 --> 40:41.460 Okay. 40:41.460 --> 40:42.800 You'll be able to live. 40:43.700 --> 40:44.960 You'll probably be able to find these. 40:45.700 --> 40:53.840 I want to, first, let's begin, and again, since it is, this is about security, right, 40:53.860 --> 40:57.460 which is near and dear to the hearts of hackers. 40:57.980 --> 40:59.340 Let's define security. 40:59.500 --> 41:02.900 You can go to Wikipedia, and I think it does an all right job, but I don't think it's really 41:02.900 --> 41:04.380 exactly correct. 41:04.380 --> 41:12.400 But security is the protection against malevolent acts, right, perpetrated by humans, bad humans, 41:12.520 --> 41:12.800 okay? 41:12.960 --> 41:14.300 That's what security is, period. 41:14.560 --> 41:15.520 What about evil robots? 41:16.100 --> 41:16.500 What's that? 41:16.660 --> 41:17.680 What about evil robots? 41:18.200 --> 41:22.920 Well, yeah, well, ooh, see, robots can't actually harm humans, but they can follow their, 41:23.080 --> 41:23.860 I'm not sure. 41:24.060 --> 41:24.400 We'll have to look into that. 41:24.400 --> 41:25.200 I don't know. 41:25.320 --> 41:26.460 What about iRobot? 41:26.940 --> 41:27.400 Don't mean me? 41:27.420 --> 41:28.160 I haven't seen that. 41:28.220 --> 41:29.020 I don't want that crap. 41:29.020 --> 41:34.360 So, security has nothing to do with safety. 41:34.820 --> 41:36.540 Safety is separate, right? 41:36.880 --> 41:39.200 I think Wikipedia actually says something about safety. 41:39.340 --> 41:40.840 That's not correct. 41:41.580 --> 41:49.180 Safety is, you know, is trying to, you know, stop harm from, you know, natural disasters 41:49.180 --> 41:51.060 and accidents, right? 41:51.120 --> 41:51.920 That's safety. 41:51.920 --> 41:59.420 Security is protection, right, or, you know, or designing systems to protect against malevolent 41:59.420 --> 42:00.780 acts from malevolent humans. 42:00.940 --> 42:01.920 That is security. 42:02.320 --> 42:03.520 So, that's out of the way. 42:04.060 --> 42:04.420 Interesting. 42:04.660 --> 42:05.580 Interesting separation. 42:05.700 --> 42:07.420 I've never heard the term separated like that before. 42:07.660 --> 42:08.580 That's new to me. 42:08.860 --> 42:14.540 There's the, oh, well, yeah, and everyone, if that's new to you, change your thinking right 42:14.540 --> 42:17.060 now and change the thinking of those around you, right? 42:17.060 --> 42:26.060 If you've got a security guard and he's, you know, let's say he's at one of your horrible 42:26.060 --> 42:30.820 big box stores and he's going out and collecting carts, no, he's a security guard. 42:30.880 --> 42:34.160 He should be doing security, not whatever the hell that is, right? 42:34.560 --> 42:35.540 That's the same thing. 42:35.620 --> 42:37.920 You need to separate security from safety. 42:38.780 --> 42:40.780 They are not the same. 42:41.300 --> 42:44.080 So, make sure you spread that. 42:44.120 --> 42:45.720 Make sure you use that at your work as well. 42:47.060 --> 42:52.560 So, now, we've got a good definition of what security is. 42:52.640 --> 42:53.660 Let's talk about risk. 42:54.380 --> 42:57.360 Risk is a metric, right? 42:57.800 --> 42:59.240 It is a way to measure something. 42:59.940 --> 43:10.660 And it is a metric that combines, well, essentially, the likelihood of a malevolent act and the consequence 43:10.660 --> 43:20.600 of that act to, and also, here, we'll be using the effectiveness of the physical protection system 43:20.600 --> 43:26.720 or the system in general, whatever you're doing, whatever you're using to protect against the act. 43:26.720 --> 43:39.200 And then, using that metric, you can evaluate your resources and use them to the best cost benefit, meaning, where can I use my money most wisely? 43:39.600 --> 43:42.140 Money, time, people, whatever it is, resources, right? 43:42.180 --> 43:44.960 To get the maximum reduction in risk. 43:44.960 --> 43:46.620 Did that make sense? 43:47.760 --> 43:49.720 It did, but, um... 43:49.720 --> 43:50.580 We're going to... 43:50.580 --> 43:52.120 We'll definitely expand on it. 43:52.200 --> 43:52.480 Okay. 43:53.380 --> 43:54.260 Did you have a question? 43:54.520 --> 43:57.740 Well, I'm just kind of thinking that it seems like... 43:57.740 --> 43:58.900 And... 43:58.900 --> 44:00.200 Correct me if I'm wrong here. 44:00.200 --> 44:00.880 I probably am. 44:00.880 --> 44:04.860 But it just seems like that sometimes you can't measure risk. 44:04.860 --> 44:05.980 I mean, it's like... 44:05.980 --> 44:06.320 I don't know. 44:06.380 --> 44:12.540 Sometimes it feels like an intangible thing that you can't say, oh, well, the risk factor is 5 out of 10 or so. 44:12.540 --> 44:14.080 I mean, maybe in some cases you can. 44:14.620 --> 44:14.800 Right. 44:14.800 --> 44:17.660 And there's probably ways to do that, but is there... 44:17.660 --> 44:19.720 Okay, is there such a thing as an unforeseen risk? 44:20.460 --> 44:21.140 That's... 44:21.140 --> 44:25.200 Snake, you brought up an amazingly good point. 44:25.840 --> 44:27.820 Hey, it happens every once in a while. 44:29.360 --> 44:31.820 I'm going to have to stop the show and go buy a lottery ticket real quick. 44:32.160 --> 44:32.460 Right. 44:32.500 --> 44:32.820 You're right. 44:32.820 --> 44:34.220 It is subjective. 44:35.160 --> 44:36.040 And it's... 44:36.040 --> 44:37.240 You can't... 44:37.240 --> 44:40.180 You can't exactly say the risk is this. 44:40.740 --> 44:42.800 Well, you can, and you're going to try to. 44:42.840 --> 44:44.020 You're going to try to quantify it. 44:44.240 --> 44:44.460 Right. 44:44.460 --> 44:45.580 But right now it's not. 44:45.740 --> 44:47.960 There's no, like, you know, universal risk table. 44:47.960 --> 44:56.600 So, you know, the risk of somebody tossing a brick from my window and clunking me in the head and stealing my baby Escalade. 44:56.940 --> 44:57.520 Well, that's... 44:57.520 --> 44:59.060 See, that risk is higher for me. 44:59.400 --> 44:59.920 What's that? 45:00.120 --> 45:01.380 I said, see, that's where... 45:01.380 --> 45:03.220 Subjective is the best way. 45:03.280 --> 45:04.580 That's a good way of describing it. 45:04.860 --> 45:06.180 All the crap that I was trying to say. 45:06.540 --> 45:13.580 Subjective is the best word because I'm more likely to get hit in the head with a brick than you are because people don't like me. 45:14.040 --> 45:16.380 So, subjective to me... 45:16.380 --> 45:16.780 I like you, Stan. 45:16.780 --> 45:17.320 It's got it. 45:17.380 --> 45:18.060 Oh, I love you, too. 45:18.400 --> 45:19.460 Internet Boyfriend, number two. 45:19.980 --> 45:20.980 Internet Boyfriend, number two. 45:21.660 --> 45:22.640 And you know what? 45:22.940 --> 45:23.820 You're a good-looking man. 45:26.540 --> 45:27.560 Record that, bitches. 45:27.840 --> 45:30.820 That's going to be remixed into a song, too. 45:31.300 --> 45:32.180 But I love you, too. 45:32.420 --> 45:32.660 Anyway. 45:32.660 --> 45:34.620 It's very subjective. 45:34.620 --> 45:34.660 It's very subjective. 45:38.660 --> 45:44.160 So, your goal is to objectify it. 45:44.160 --> 45:46.480 You want to make it... 45:46.480 --> 45:51.800 You want to be able to quantify risk, right, in a meaningful way. 45:52.020 --> 45:52.300 Okay. 45:52.300 --> 46:05.100 So, if you've got something that's just, it's so nebulous, well, there's got to be ways that you can, you know, define, and we'll talk about this, define your system, test your system, get some performance numbers, right? 46:05.100 --> 46:13.140 Because performance testing, that's how you're going to get actual numbers, right, that will feed and that will become the effectiveness, that will feed in this risk equation. 46:13.240 --> 46:17.120 It will actually get you a number, something solid, something to work from, right? 46:17.200 --> 46:18.920 So, it's not so nebulous. 46:19.780 --> 46:20.140 Right. 46:20.840 --> 46:22.160 So, that's what we're going to talk about. 46:22.300 --> 46:23.660 And it's really... 46:23.660 --> 46:25.280 And it's not that difficult. 46:25.980 --> 46:27.700 I mean, yes and no. 46:27.800 --> 46:34.900 I mean, to get experts in whatever field, you know, if you've got some big facility, if you've got some, you know, huge network that you need to secure, you know, 46:34.900 --> 46:43.040 you're going to need experts in this and that, and it's, no, it's not easy, but wrapping your mind around this topic shouldn't be too hard, 46:43.120 --> 46:48.180 especially when I think, you know, all the listeners are already thinking this way, you know? 46:48.260 --> 46:49.460 I'm sure they are. 46:49.460 --> 46:58.460 You know, even if they haven't, you know, put pen to paper or, you know, or, you know, literally spoken about it, 46:58.460 --> 47:06.140 they've probably thought about it, you know, just in their everyday lives, you know? 47:06.420 --> 47:06.740 Right. 47:06.740 --> 47:13.520 Well, and just on the surface, it certainly is, you know, it's not a difficult concept to grasp and it needs to be done, 47:13.680 --> 47:17.200 but I also know that it's not exactly easy. 47:17.280 --> 47:21.940 I mean, there are, like, all these equations and stuff that are out there that will help you try to do this, right? 47:22.540 --> 47:23.780 Yeah, and that's the thing. 47:24.000 --> 47:30.920 There's a lot of, right, so, again, it's not hard to grasp. 47:31.080 --> 47:34.520 It's not a hard concept to grasp, but it needs to be formalized. 47:34.860 --> 47:38.040 And there are lots of, you can go on the web, you can get a lot of books, 47:38.080 --> 47:41.940 and there are lots of ways people say, oh, here's this consequence, you know, here's a, I'm sorry, 47:41.980 --> 47:45.900 here's a risk matrix, I want to fill the consequence matrix, you know, here's this equation, 47:45.900 --> 47:47.720 here's how you do this, we call it this. 47:47.720 --> 47:51.920 And really, it's just like the security safety thing. 47:52.080 --> 47:55.980 They're all just kind of, they sort of know what they're talking about, but, you know, 47:56.140 --> 48:01.740 and that's a good try, good job, you know, but there's a little, there's a little more to it. 48:02.300 --> 48:08.520 That's why I referenced Garcia's book that really is definitive. 48:08.520 --> 48:14.920 And this equation that we'll talk about comes from that book. 48:15.880 --> 48:18.220 It's been in use for decades. 48:18.760 --> 48:22.360 It is effective, and it's straightforward, right? 48:23.560 --> 48:27.220 The definitions, the foundation is there, the definitions are there. 48:28.720 --> 48:30.180 The numbers will work. 48:30.180 --> 48:40.180 So let's, if I may, let's roll, you know, let's get into it now, and we'll start showing you how to assess risk. 48:40.340 --> 48:43.980 All right, I'm going to sit back and take notes, and you go ahead, and you're going to drive here. 48:44.000 --> 48:45.380 I'm going to stand back and just listen. 48:45.780 --> 48:47.760 Yeah, well, please, you know, please ask questions. 48:47.880 --> 48:51.000 You know, if something's not clear, please let me know. 48:51.900 --> 48:55.060 So, again, we're talking about system, overall, we're talking about system engineering. 48:55.060 --> 48:58.540 And you need to, of course, determine the objectives of your system. 48:58.720 --> 49:01.300 You need to then design that system, and then you need to evaluate it. 49:01.340 --> 49:08.240 And in that evaluation phase, you're going to want to assess risk, right, and then reduce that risk as best you can. 49:10.140 --> 49:16.760 So, given a system, the first thing you need to do, of course, is define that system. 49:18.280 --> 49:22.140 You need to characterize it, if you will, right? 49:22.180 --> 49:24.060 What kind of network do I have? 49:24.060 --> 49:25.860 What kind of connectivity is there? 49:25.960 --> 49:27.880 Who has access to it, right? 49:27.940 --> 49:29.220 What kind of computers are there? 49:29.300 --> 49:30.320 What software is running? 49:30.720 --> 49:40.080 You need to know everything about it that you can, and not just what people say exists, because often that is not the case, right? 49:40.260 --> 49:40.620 Right. 49:41.200 --> 49:43.900 People may say, well, we don't have a Halon problem here. 49:43.900 --> 49:54.320 But you know that the Halon alarm goes off, you know, twice a month, and then eventually people don't pay attention to it. 49:54.420 --> 49:56.440 And I guess that's actually a safety issue. 49:56.800 --> 49:57.180 I do. 49:57.860 --> 49:58.820 Yeah, exactly. 49:59.260 --> 50:00.600 And that's the only reason I brought that up. 50:00.680 --> 50:01.600 That's probably safety, too. 50:01.600 --> 50:02.520 I shouldn't be talking about that. 50:02.520 --> 50:08.220 Let's talk about a door alarm. 50:08.720 --> 50:16.740 Let's say this one door, right, to the knock, it's alarmed, and, you know, it goes off all the time. 50:17.540 --> 50:20.040 And eventually, you know, it's supposed to work. 50:20.100 --> 50:20.800 And we say it works. 50:20.840 --> 50:22.240 And we check a box and say it works. 50:22.300 --> 50:23.620 Fine, because, you know, it goes off. 50:23.720 --> 50:25.940 But really, nobody pays attention to it. 50:26.020 --> 50:27.160 And eventually it turns off. 50:27.160 --> 50:28.220 And there's no effectiveness there. 50:28.260 --> 50:31.480 You need to know what really goes on in the system. 50:32.660 --> 50:33.020 Okay? 50:33.320 --> 50:34.060 Does that make sense? 50:34.340 --> 50:35.100 Yeah, absolutely. 50:35.100 --> 50:38.500 Yeah, but actually I do have a question or maybe a clarification. 50:38.820 --> 50:44.700 When you say system, and even in your examples, so far you've referred to computers and software. 50:44.960 --> 50:48.760 But a system is not necessarily computer even or technology even. 50:48.820 --> 50:55.540 It can be a system of security as it applies to people living in an apartment. 50:56.080 --> 50:57.060 Yeah, I mean anything. 50:57.160 --> 50:57.660 Really, right? 50:57.780 --> 50:58.260 Or is that? 50:58.680 --> 51:04.840 And I may be a little misleading because doing all of this in the cyber realm is a little different. 51:04.940 --> 51:05.920 It's a lot different, actually. 51:05.920 --> 51:06.060 Right. 51:06.060 --> 51:10.640 That's a big problem, and it's still being worked on to this day because it's so different. 51:10.800 --> 51:12.800 You know, there's no delay. 51:13.100 --> 51:14.940 You know, it's really, it's a hard problem. 51:15.820 --> 51:22.520 But when I mention computers and networks and stuff, something is it, because I'm assuming most of your listeners are familiar with that. 51:22.640 --> 51:23.460 Right, right, absolutely. 51:23.760 --> 51:24.720 So we're going to stick with that. 51:24.720 --> 51:26.520 We're going to focus on that for the rest of the. 51:26.520 --> 51:28.720 Yeah, I would say so. 51:28.840 --> 51:35.680 We're probably like the physical, excuse me, like the physical protection, you know, of a data center, let's say. 51:36.020 --> 51:36.360 Okay. 51:36.360 --> 51:39.620 So that's what, so we'll kind of use that example. 51:39.800 --> 51:40.340 All right, good. 51:41.340 --> 51:45.380 So, where all your cismans, cismans are nurse mode, you know, that's what we'll talk about. 51:46.560 --> 51:49.240 So you need to, you have to characterize the facility. 51:49.500 --> 51:53.180 You have to know exactly what's going on, what really happens, you know. 51:53.460 --> 51:58.440 That door, if somebody says, yeah, well, that door, it's always locked and only I have the key. 51:58.440 --> 52:05.340 Well, you know what, he kind of gave a key to this guy because he has to come in and work on this box. 52:05.440 --> 52:08.600 But it's just, it's only once in a while and it's just him. 52:09.500 --> 52:09.880 Or the locksmith. 52:09.880 --> 52:10.820 You know, so they don't work it down. 52:10.940 --> 52:12.760 No, that's, you need to know that. 52:12.960 --> 52:18.500 Well, the locksmith, the locksmith might have a master key or the building managers. 52:18.500 --> 52:20.280 You've got to think outside of the. 52:21.520 --> 52:21.880 Absolutely. 52:22.320 --> 52:27.080 And that's, and what's really important is that you must go and talk to people. 52:27.280 --> 52:30.740 You've got to, you've got to get on site, get hands on and talk to the experts. 52:30.840 --> 52:32.460 Those are the people who are actually doing the work. 52:32.520 --> 52:32.780 Okay. 52:32.900 --> 52:34.300 You need to go and talk to people. 52:34.400 --> 52:35.840 You need to find out exactly what's going on. 52:35.900 --> 52:38.920 You need to characterize that facility to the utmost. 52:40.300 --> 52:45.500 Next, you need to, and this is, this is, you know, this is a difficult problem. 52:45.500 --> 52:49.600 But there are resources that can help you. 52:50.000 --> 52:52.760 And that is defining the threat, right? 52:53.060 --> 52:56.220 So what am I, you know, what am I worried about? 52:56.480 --> 52:58.640 Or better yet, who am I worried about? 52:59.460 --> 53:04.600 You've got to determine who, you know, what the adversary is going to look like. 53:04.740 --> 53:06.320 Who's going to do bad things to you? 53:06.940 --> 53:12.200 So if you've got a data center, you're probably worried about insiders. 53:12.200 --> 53:17.320 That's a, that's a big problem and another, and another show unto itself. 53:18.260 --> 53:19.400 But that's what you need to do. 53:19.480 --> 53:21.180 You need to define, okay, what's my threat? 53:21.260 --> 53:24.360 Who am I going to, or at what level am I going to protect against? 53:24.880 --> 53:25.140 All right. 53:25.260 --> 53:32.680 If you're a small ISP or, you know, you're a little SELEC, are you going to worry about a nation state going after you? 53:32.760 --> 53:33.720 Probably not. 53:34.000 --> 53:35.920 You're probably not worried about Titan Reign. 53:36.020 --> 53:36.300 Okay. 53:36.300 --> 53:40.360 Um, you know, if you're, um... 53:40.360 --> 53:41.180 Wait a minute, worried about what? 53:42.260 --> 53:44.220 Uh, Titan Reign, the Chinese hackers. 53:44.800 --> 53:45.160 Oh! 53:45.160 --> 53:46.680 Time Magazine, you ever heard of that? 53:46.760 --> 53:47.160 Ah, I... 53:47.160 --> 53:47.500 Read up. 53:47.840 --> 53:48.320 I hadn't forgotten. 53:48.340 --> 53:53.500 Yeah, if nobody's read of, if you guys haven't read about Titan Reign, look into it, it's really interesting. 53:53.660 --> 53:57.340 There's, they're, China's doing a lot of stuff, let's just say that. 53:57.500 --> 53:57.860 Yeah. 53:57.860 --> 54:00.500 Yeah, I think it was in time, I think it was in time. 54:00.500 --> 54:10.260 Um, so, if you're a bank, you've probably got a more sophisticated adversary, you know, maybe organized crime, right? 54:10.360 --> 54:11.420 You, you know, who knows? 54:11.540 --> 54:17.260 You've, you've got to, you've got to protect against, you know, a lot of people want money, so you've got to protect against a higher level adversary. 54:17.260 --> 54:32.820 Um, if you're just a Joe Schmo and you need to protect your, you know, your boxes in your house, well, you know, sturdy doors, good locks, maybe an alarm system is not really going to do much good for you, but, you know, what's your adversary? 54:33.160 --> 54:33.840 Common criminal. 54:34.460 --> 54:42.700 So you need to define that threat, so you can determine the effectiveness, once you determine the effectiveness of your system, you can say, okay, given this threat, I need to protect this. 54:42.700 --> 54:51.700 Here's a protection I have, I can use this much money to change my, you know, level of protection, not my level of protection, because my threat is, is, you know, this sophisticated, so. 54:52.460 --> 54:53.600 You must define your threat. 54:54.640 --> 54:57.560 And then finally, define, uh, the target, or identify the target. 54:57.840 --> 54:59.040 What are they going to attack? 55:00.300 --> 55:01.960 Um, what's important? 55:02.320 --> 55:03.200 What's most important? 55:03.920 --> 55:10.300 Um, what, what's, as far as risk goes, what's acceptable if it's lost, right? 55:10.600 --> 55:10.980 Right. 55:10.980 --> 55:19.100 If your NTP server goes down, eh, you know, that may be, actually, that may be really bad, but, you know, if DNS goes down, that's really bad. 55:19.860 --> 55:21.360 So, what are you going to protect? 55:22.120 --> 55:27.560 Well, is it, is a, is it a factor at all, the cost of replacement of something? 55:27.640 --> 55:31.580 Like, if you lost a server, or if you lost, something was stolen, the cost to replace? 55:32.540 --> 55:37.800 Absolutely, in fact, and that's, we'll, we'll talk about that when, when, uh, we get to mitigation, you know, insurance. 55:38.340 --> 55:39.420 All right, I'm jumping the gun here. 55:39.740 --> 55:40.940 Let's, I'm sorry? 55:41.120 --> 55:42.800 I said I was jumping the gun there, I guess. 55:43.200 --> 55:48.600 Well, no, that's, that's, that's good to point out, because, and, and that's why you're, that's why you're identifying the, the targets. 55:48.700 --> 55:50.260 That's right, identifying the valuable assets. 55:50.580 --> 55:53.640 So, when you get to that point, you say, well, we can just replace it. 55:54.220 --> 55:55.500 And that risk is acceptable. 55:55.900 --> 55:58.420 So, you have to, you have to know that up front, right? 55:58.740 --> 56:04.840 When you're, when you're defining the system, when you're determining the objective, you need to know that when you get to that point. 56:04.840 --> 56:06.780 So, that's why this is the legwork. 56:07.400 --> 56:14.040 This is the, you know, not the most, not, not the hardest work, not, you know, the most work, but this is the, you know, building the foundation. 56:14.400 --> 56:16.420 What, what kind of time frame does it take to do this part? 56:16.420 --> 56:18.820 It depends on the system. 56:19.340 --> 56:20.520 Ah, of course. 56:20.560 --> 56:23.980 If it's, if it's nationwide, long time, right? 56:24.000 --> 56:25.060 If we're talking infrastructure. 56:25.680 --> 56:26.420 Right, right. 56:26.440 --> 56:26.880 Who knows? 56:27.380 --> 56:27.580 Yeah. 56:27.680 --> 56:35.620 You know, but if you're talking, you know, you're renting a, a room downtown with your Astro servers, you know. 56:36.080 --> 56:36.460 Right. 56:37.040 --> 56:37.480 Not long. 56:37.480 --> 56:38.180 All right. 56:38.280 --> 56:39.980 So, whatever case by case basis. 56:40.580 --> 56:40.900 Right. 56:41.220 --> 56:44.100 So, now you've got all of these things and you need to design the system. 56:44.220 --> 56:45.140 Okay, I've got this stuff. 56:45.200 --> 56:46.180 I'm going to design the system. 56:46.320 --> 56:47.320 Here's the money I've got. 56:47.420 --> 56:50.000 Here's the best technology I've got. 56:50.080 --> 56:51.500 I've looked into it as best I can. 56:51.580 --> 56:54.440 Hopefully, you're designing things before it's built, right? 56:54.460 --> 56:55.900 You're not kind of adding on to stuff. 56:57.980 --> 57:03.920 And we're, and we're not going to talk about the specific things when you design the system being detection delay and response. 57:03.920 --> 57:10.320 There's actually an article in a really good magazine called VR that you can check out and it talks about those. 57:11.700 --> 57:13.180 You need to design that system. 57:14.200 --> 57:19.720 And then once it's designed, once you've got it, you need to evaluate it. 57:21.000 --> 57:24.360 Now, there are, there are tools. 57:24.820 --> 57:28.380 There are worksheets, you know, like spreadsheets, Excel, spreadsheets. 57:28.380 --> 57:40.940 Of course, there are books, you know, there are guides that can help you in assessing your physical protection system and use them. 57:42.940 --> 57:43.780 Check them out. 57:43.920 --> 57:47.100 Make sure, you know, make sure they've got good pedigree. 57:48.500 --> 57:49.680 Make sure they make sense. 57:49.780 --> 57:51.600 Make sure they know the difference between safety and security. 57:51.600 --> 57:58.540 Make sure they're not just, you know, looking into your pencil and checking off a box because that's not what it's about. 58:00.020 --> 58:01.800 But I bet that's very common, though. 58:02.300 --> 58:02.800 It is. 58:02.900 --> 58:03.440 Yeah, I bet that's true. 58:03.440 --> 58:04.260 It really is. 58:04.440 --> 58:09.960 And knowing these things, here's the thing, you know, everybody that's listening, you know, actually, 58:10.320 --> 58:14.540 BINREV in general is going to give you, is going to, you know, enable you, empower you in this way. 58:14.540 --> 58:18.840 But knowing these things is going to, you know, give you that leg up. 58:18.960 --> 58:24.380 It's going to give you, you know, that extra sophistication when you're going to an interview 58:24.380 --> 58:30.960 or when you're dealing with people who are, you know, trying to sell you their security product 58:30.960 --> 58:35.940 or when you're trying to secure anything from your box at home to a knock, right? 58:36.340 --> 58:39.040 This, you know, and BINREV does that, again, in general. 58:39.340 --> 58:42.700 But this right here, just knowing these things will help you as well. 58:42.700 --> 58:48.100 Well, I know right now, I mean, if I ever am in a situation where I need a vendor to come in 58:48.100 --> 58:52.120 and do a security assessment for me, you know, one of the questions I'll ask in the interview 58:52.120 --> 58:56.180 or up front is, you know, explain to me the difference between security and safety. 58:56.300 --> 58:59.540 And if they can't do that, thanks, God bless, good night, bye-bye. 59:00.620 --> 59:02.960 You know, I mean, so I'm getting a lot out of this. 59:03.060 --> 59:03.420 Absolutely. 59:03.580 --> 59:05.640 There's already a lot of good information. 59:06.140 --> 59:10.560 I'm going to try to shut up because we've got, like, I don't know, 20-some more minutes to go, 59:10.660 --> 59:12.260 and I'm getting interested in this. 59:12.260 --> 59:14.020 I'm getting more and more interested in this as I hear. 59:14.440 --> 59:14.980 I'm glad. 59:15.100 --> 59:15.480 I'm glad. 59:15.680 --> 59:19.540 You know, to be sure, there are systems integrators out there who can, you know, 59:20.280 --> 59:23.860 who can, you know, make the systems work together because, you know, obviously they can. 59:24.140 --> 59:26.760 You know, if you can leverage the other, that's a definite positive. 59:27.320 --> 59:30.880 But you must realize security is separate. 59:31.140 --> 59:32.380 Security is important. 59:33.040 --> 59:37.120 Security is not just a cost or it will cost you, right? 59:37.120 --> 59:43.100 It is a cost, obviously, but it's not a – it shouldn't be a – and it is. 59:43.460 --> 59:48.780 I know, you know, people who are making the decisions and have the money, man, I've got to pay for security. 59:48.900 --> 59:50.620 This sucks because nothing's ever happened. 59:50.760 --> 59:55.020 You don't see a direct, immediate benefit from it is the common thing. 59:55.020 --> 01:00:00.620 You can't go and say, I need you to budget me X number of dollars from the business standpoint, you know, 01:00:00.660 --> 01:00:02.080 and I've seen this happen before. 01:00:02.260 --> 01:00:03.580 Sorry to jump in on this, but – 01:00:03.580 --> 01:00:04.020 No, it's fine. 01:00:04.020 --> 01:00:10.260 So many times I've seen it happen where they just will not justify the budget for you to pay for – I've even seen, you know, 01:00:10.300 --> 01:00:16.400 requests for a simple backup server or extra hard drives and stuff turned down because, you know, we don't need that. 01:00:16.580 --> 01:00:18.120 We're not going to get any benefit from that. 01:00:18.180 --> 01:00:24.640 We can't justify spending that money on a disk farm of some kind because they can't see an immediate benefit. 01:00:24.640 --> 01:00:37.160 However, you know, six months down the road, and I'm telling you this from actual experience, when you're – someone accidentally drops a table space and you lose half your database that was sitting there 01:00:37.160 --> 01:00:48.780 and you don't have good backups of it somewhere, you don't realize the cost that it will take to try to recover, if you can recover, the data. 01:00:48.780 --> 01:00:56.820 I mean, I was in – I can't go into too much detail, but I was in a situation where it was so bad that they ended up having to send the hard drive off 01:00:56.820 --> 01:01:01.220 because there were no good backups to one of those data recovery, and that is not cheap. 01:01:02.020 --> 01:01:10.960 So that's a factor and a way of measuring, you know, to go back to the metrics of the thing, measuring what is the potential cost of recovering from situations like this 01:01:10.960 --> 01:01:13.740 versus what you would have spent on it. 01:01:13.740 --> 01:01:20.040 And that's the way you have to sell this from a business standpoint to upper management and to the higher-ups in your company. 01:01:20.120 --> 01:01:27.480 You have to show them, yes, we're asking for this much money now so that we don't have to ask for this much money later. 01:01:28.040 --> 01:01:28.380 Right. 01:01:28.920 --> 01:01:33.060 Yeah, you're not going to get profit from this, but it's necessary. 01:01:33.060 --> 01:01:37.460 And then here is where security can leverage safety, and this is the safety of your data from an accident, right? 01:01:37.660 --> 01:01:37.920 Right. 01:01:38.460 --> 01:01:43.360 Or, again, security leveraging that from an insider wiping your database. 01:01:43.360 --> 01:01:47.200 Well, I've got secure off-site backups now, so way to go, ass. 01:01:47.380 --> 01:01:49.660 I've got this shit, and you're in jail. 01:01:50.080 --> 01:01:50.360 Yeah. 01:01:51.040 --> 01:01:51.960 Yeah, absolutely. 01:01:52.260 --> 01:01:53.820 And you've got to convince people of that. 01:01:54.120 --> 01:01:55.220 You've got to sell. 01:01:55.560 --> 01:01:58.140 You've really got to sell this because it's important, you know. 01:01:58.340 --> 01:01:59.540 Good security is important. 01:02:01.900 --> 01:02:06.020 So you've determined the objectives of the physical protection system. 01:02:06.120 --> 01:02:06.800 You've designed it. 01:02:07.080 --> 01:02:08.220 You've implemented it. 01:02:09.060 --> 01:02:11.020 Hopefully you've done this before implementation. 01:02:12.000 --> 01:02:13.660 And now you need to evaluate it. 01:02:14.820 --> 01:02:18.240 And I'm going to drop the risk equation right on you right now. 01:02:18.480 --> 01:02:18.880 Uh-oh. 01:02:20.040 --> 01:02:26.020 So we can reference this throughout the rest of the talk here. 01:02:26.020 --> 01:02:32.460 So the risk equation is, oh, and what should I do about that? 01:02:32.660 --> 01:02:35.300 Yeah, is this going to translate over the radio well, though? 01:02:35.400 --> 01:02:36.640 Yeah, it's not big. 01:02:36.700 --> 01:02:37.180 It's not bad. 01:02:37.300 --> 01:02:38.560 It's really not bad at all. 01:02:38.700 --> 01:02:38.960 Okay. 01:02:38.960 --> 01:02:45.920 And I'll talk about the terms and their definitions, and actually that'll help you, because you'll 01:02:45.920 --> 01:02:47.860 see other definitions when you look into this. 01:02:47.860 --> 01:03:02.700 Risk, R, equals P sub A, which is the probability of attack, times, and there's actually 01:03:02.700 --> 01:03:11.040 a parenthesis here, one minus P sub I, which is the probability of interruption. 01:03:11.040 --> 01:03:17.840 That's going to be the effectiveness of the system, close paren, times consequence. 01:03:17.840 --> 01:03:18.840 Okay. 01:03:18.840 --> 01:03:24.820 So again, risk equals P A, times paren, one minus P I, probability of interruption, close paren, 01:03:24.820 --> 01:03:30.820 times consequence, C, which is C. So you'll often hear, here we're using probability of attack, 01:03:30.820 --> 01:03:47.160 and that is, you'll often hear likelihood, right? 01:03:47.160 --> 01:03:50.640 You'll hear that in safety as well, the likelihood of an event. 01:03:50.640 --> 01:03:55.900 here that in safety as well the likelihood of an event okay but it's just it's the probability that 01:03:55.900 --> 01:04:06.740 you will be attacked um consequences um oh what term is used i guess consequences pretty much used 01:04:06.740 --> 01:04:14.280 uh no there's something else oh crap what do they use consequences um repercussions um severity 01:04:14.280 --> 01:04:21.300 okay often you'll see severity you know and again that's maybe it's tied more to safety what's the 01:04:21.300 --> 01:04:26.100 severity of the event you know katrina's really bad that's a one all of these terms 01:04:26.100 --> 01:04:36.000 uh are quantified from zero to one oh okay okay so everything you're probably it's their 01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:40.420 probabilities right your consequences from zero to one zero meaning uh it doesn't matter 01:04:40.420 --> 01:04:47.920 one meaning the worst thing that can happen okay and your effectiveness um there's actually 01:04:47.920 --> 01:04:56.480 the probability of interruption that's that's the the the probability that that uh any node 01:04:56.480 --> 01:05:02.420 in the physical protection system will stop an adversary and or i'm sorry not stop an adversary 01:05:02.420 --> 01:05:09.340 but will um you know interrupt detect and tell somebody hey something bad is going on 01:05:09.340 --> 01:05:15.580 at that point in this attack timeline and that is again a probability um and there are more 01:05:15.580 --> 01:05:19.540 there are actually more terms in there but we're simplifying it to that r equals pa 01:05:19.540 --> 01:05:29.120 times quantity of one minus pi and can i and i actually i've dealt with some equations like this so if 01:05:29.120 --> 01:05:33.120 the this is just kind of a personal tip that i've always used is 01:05:33.120 --> 01:05:40.120 in measurements like this to me and maybe to the listeners it's easier for me to think of these now 01:05:40.120 --> 01:05:44.800 let me hear me out before you i know you're gonna say this is wrong but i like to think of some of 01:05:44.800 --> 01:05:51.020 these as percentages now i know it's i know it's zero to one but quite honestly if you're at a 01:05:51.020 --> 01:05:57.560 0.995 which is very very high you know very possible it's going to happen versus say let's well 01:05:57.560 --> 01:06:02.580 actually let's go back to 0.5 which is in the middle well that's a 50 percent the way i like to think 01:06:02.580 --> 01:06:08.740 but only in my head so it's a lot of times it's easier for me personally to think of things in 01:06:08.740 --> 01:06:15.040 terms of percentages in my head the only reason you do with the 0 to 1 on paper is for the mathematics 01:06:15.040 --> 01:06:21.440 involved so that you can actually do these multipliers through each other within reasonable 01:06:21.440 --> 01:06:27.620 numbers so that the multipliers don't have this this uh i don't know over bloated effect by staying 01:06:27.620 --> 01:06:33.140 with numbers within a certain range between 0 and 1 it makes the math more applicable it makes you able 01:06:33.140 --> 01:06:39.860 to again better measure these things but if it's easier for you to think of it you know if it's 01:06:39.860 --> 01:06:46.400 easier to visualize this in your head when you hear about something that has a 0.05 it's really 01:06:46.400 --> 01:06:51.780 only a five percent chance that it might happen right absolutely no that's absolutely correct yeah 01:06:51.780 --> 01:06:55.860 they're just they are percentages yeah they're the one that's a percentage so yeah and that's and 01:06:55.860 --> 01:07:01.460 that's how you'll talk to people about it well that you know the the consequence of this events is you 01:07:01.460 --> 01:07:09.300 know it's 90 that's a real bad right that's that's you know um so we've got our equation and did that 01:07:09.300 --> 01:07:14.580 that translate i hope it did i think so it's real straight again i'll get one more time just just in 01:07:14.580 --> 01:07:19.460 case i'll literally talk about you know literally here are the characters r equals pa 01:07:21.220 --> 01:07:26.100 paren one minus pi close paren time c 01:07:30.340 --> 01:07:36.820 and that's actually real world yes you'll see that on any time anytime you have a security assessment 01:07:36.820 --> 01:07:42.820 you're going to see that yes and that's that's actually simplified so if you're gonna and that's 01:07:42.820 --> 01:07:47.540 fine depending on your system but there are other there are other terms there as well 01:07:48.900 --> 01:07:56.500 but i thought that is that's enough that that should go over radio all right sounds good okay so we've 01:07:56.500 --> 01:08:03.620 got we've got a risk equation now we need to start measuring risk so how do you do that uh you've got 01:08:03.620 --> 01:08:09.140 to assess your system effectiveness and the best way to do that is by performance testing and just like 01:08:09.140 --> 01:08:14.260 characterizing your facility yeah don't just take the word of the vendors right you're going to have 01:08:14.260 --> 01:08:23.860 to go and actually determine how it works how effective uh it is in its in its implementation 01:08:24.580 --> 01:08:33.620 uh you've got a sensor it will you know detect a six foot human walking um you know 85 of the time well 01:08:33.620 --> 01:08:41.860 uh you know and i'm not talking about what kind of sensor it is but you know so you have the sensor is 01:08:41.860 --> 01:08:48.420 at 85 in day at night when it's warm when it's cold you know when it's when it's 10 feet off the ground 01:08:48.420 --> 01:08:54.100 when it's eight feet off the ground how is it implemented um and then how is it how effective is 01:08:54.100 --> 01:09:00.340 it in that implementation so you've got to determine that um and the best way is to and i'm not you know 01:09:00.340 --> 01:09:06.660 going to go into statistics because i don't know off my head you know i'd have to go back and look at 01:09:06.660 --> 01:09:12.420 my college textbooks i guess um you've got a performance test you've got to you know walk 01:09:12.420 --> 01:09:17.860 past that sensor 30 times and see how well it works with some confidence well and that that actually 01:09:17.860 --> 01:09:23.540 brings something else to mind too isn't part of this um and it goes back to what you said earlier about 01:09:23.540 --> 01:09:28.820 taking their word for who's got the keys to the thing or that something goes off all the time and 01:09:28.820 --> 01:09:33.140 it's not a problem or we've only got this software installed we don't have anything else yeah 01:09:33.140 --> 01:09:38.820 there's actually inherently some auditing part of this job where you have to actually verify 01:09:38.820 --> 01:09:42.900 improve all this you otherwise it's like you said i think you said this in the beginning you used the 01:09:42.900 --> 01:09:47.380 term checking check marks on a clipboard or something you're just going down a checklist on a clipboard 01:09:47.380 --> 01:09:51.460 just oh really that's what you've got check check check you're not really doing so much the 01:09:52.100 --> 01:09:56.500 analysis you're just taking their word for it you have to actually do some auditing and test a lot of 01:09:56.500 --> 01:10:02.260 this stuff yourself inherently to the process is that right that's a really good point it's amazing 01:10:02.260 --> 01:10:08.500 how much you will learn about your system it's amazing how much even you know customers will come to 01:10:08.500 --> 01:10:13.220 us and it's just going through the process not even getting to the point where we're making the 01:10:13.220 --> 01:10:18.820 calculations and talking about mitigation you get just going through the process and they've they learn 01:10:18.820 --> 01:10:26.420 so much you know they have people you know people not talking to other people in the organization you 01:10:26.420 --> 01:10:32.980 know people finding out what really app managers finding out what really goes on you know not you know 01:10:32.980 --> 01:10:41.060 some may be bad not all the time but absolutely you you learn so much you learn so much it's it's amazing 01:10:41.060 --> 01:10:48.660 what a good process can do cool so this is so what we're what we're talking about now you've got your 01:10:48.660 --> 01:10:52.340 physical you've got your you know you know what kind of facility you're dealing with you've got your threat 01:10:53.460 --> 01:10:59.220 you know what's important in in in your system um now you need to find the effectiveness of that system 01:10:59.220 --> 01:11:05.140 so you go and you're near testing you find okay this really works yes this door locks automatically every time 01:11:05.140 --> 01:11:11.300 um that's going to feed that's going to be your pi so in your equation you've got your you've got your 01:11:11.300 --> 01:11:22.820 pi now right and that's and that is going to be again it's simplified um boy yeah it's kind of tough 01:11:22.820 --> 01:11:30.980 to translate into radio i know yeah um i guess right because it's and i know everybody's thinking well 01:11:30.980 --> 01:11:34.980 there's lots of sensors there's lots of layers of security well yeah and again this 01:11:34.980 --> 01:11:41.460 is this this equation is simplified um i guess the the best way i can explain it is that you want 01:11:41.460 --> 01:11:48.820 to determine um what's what's that that pi that probably did an eruption what's going to be the 01:11:48.820 --> 01:11:55.780 effectiveness of that system from that adversary right and then use that as that number and use that 01:11:55.780 --> 01:12:03.060 from your tests right get that number from your tests and i'll leave it at that that is a simplification 01:12:03.060 --> 01:12:09.540 hopefully not an oversimplification um well there is like like i'm kind of thinking in the back of my 01:12:09.540 --> 01:12:15.860 head that's fine to test let's use your sensor example you can walk past it and test it all you 01:12:15.860 --> 01:12:20.260 want test it in the daytime nighttime all that stuff that you said and let's say you come up with 01:12:21.060 --> 01:12:27.460 0.85 you said 85 percent early you come up with a 0.85 but that's just the one individual sensor and 01:12:27.460 --> 01:12:32.180 there are layers of security that's a sensor on the first corner of the hallway and you have to walk 01:12:32.180 --> 01:12:39.380 down three hallways to get to the data center right so it's actually pi is actually a product of the 01:12:39.380 --> 01:12:44.820 probabilities of detection of each of those sensors of each you know node in that physical protection 01:12:44.820 --> 01:12:49.060 system so yeah we can do that so basically you're going to be multiplying all those numbers exactly 01:12:49.060 --> 01:12:55.220 so it may be 85 individually one at a time each one has an 85 percent chance but the chance to be 01:12:55.220 --> 01:13:02.420 making it through all three of them is a lot not is a lot harder right so there we go it's there's a 01:13:02.420 --> 01:13:06.660 little so that so that kind of fills you in that kind of gets the rest of your system thank you very 01:13:06.660 --> 01:13:11.540 much yeah um so that i understand what you mean by oversimplifying it but we have to do that for 01:13:11.540 --> 01:13:16.340 radio and i i think our listeners understand that yeah and i hope and i hope it's not painful 01:13:16.340 --> 01:13:25.140 too reading off an equation on radio it's got to be just horrible radio too well so so thank you 01:13:25.140 --> 01:13:33.380 for putting so okay so now you've got your pi so in that risk equation uh so now you've got r equals 01:13:33.380 --> 01:13:40.820 pa one minus pi times c pa times one minus pi times c you've got your pi you've got that term 01:13:42.660 --> 01:13:48.500 that's the effectiveness of your system the probability of attack this is a really easy one 01:13:49.380 --> 01:13:54.100 if you want to just assume that you're going to be attacked you can make that a one right and as you 01:13:54.100 --> 01:13:58.900 probably you should if you're going to talk about risk you might as well say okay well let's you 01:13:58.900 --> 01:14:04.420 know let's say we are well it depends on the threat what is that threat level red or whatever they call 01:14:04.420 --> 01:14:14.020 it uh that's no that's that's a that's called a joke um so uh and and i was i was when i mentioned 01:14:14.020 --> 01:14:19.700 thread and about resources um this is where that comes into play when you want to determine the 01:14:19.700 --> 01:14:24.100 probability of attack okay you've got your threat now what's what's the possibility right what's 01:14:24.100 --> 01:14:29.620 the probability that they are going to you know hit my facility um how are you going to know that 01:14:30.260 --> 01:14:36.660 okay you can look at crime statistics you can talk to the cops um i guess if you've got some 01:14:37.620 --> 01:14:42.420 national infrastructure you can you know they've got intelligence obviously they you know they've 01:14:42.420 --> 01:14:50.340 they've they've got ways to quantify that uh but you know for most of the real world it's it's not 01:14:50.340 --> 01:14:56.180 any you know it's not an easy problem um so again you've got you've got some tools there are crime 01:14:56.180 --> 01:15:00.260 stats you can look at you can talk to cops you can talk to you can talk to security companies there 01:15:00.260 --> 01:15:04.420 are you know there are private security companies who know what's going on um 01:15:04.420 --> 01:15:11.540 um pi's maybe i don't know but there are ways to find out okay what's you know is this a good area 01:15:11.540 --> 01:15:17.620 or not am i going to get whacked you know or again you could just say okay i'm going to assume that this 01:15:17.620 --> 01:15:22.980 is going to happen and move on with your equation from there so you can use a pa of one that actually 01:15:22.980 --> 01:15:28.740 makes it it's called conditional meaning that yes i am going to be attacked and it essentially drops out 01:15:28.740 --> 01:15:41.700 so then you'd have r equals uh one minus pi times c um consequence that's the last uh term to figure 01:15:41.700 --> 01:15:49.940 out you've got your target and this this will bring in what you mentioned earlier right here stank um 01:15:50.580 --> 01:15:55.940 or well or we will after this i should say um you've got your target you've got a really it's just a 01:15:55.940 --> 01:16:04.020 hyper important server uh if this you know if somebody comes in and you know beats it to death 01:16:04.020 --> 01:16:11.140 with a baseball bat like office space um that's the worst thing that can happen to my company right 01:16:11.140 --> 01:16:16.820 and that's how you need to determine this right what's the worst thing that can happen to whoever 01:16:16.820 --> 01:16:21.460 this customer this company you what's the worst thing that can happen me the worst thing that can 01:16:21.460 --> 01:16:28.500 happen if anything happened to my wife oh maybe oh that's just so precious um so you need to determine 01:16:28.500 --> 01:16:34.420 that and again it's like like you said snake percentage so if somebody going gangsta on your 01:16:34.420 --> 01:16:41.460 server is the worst thing that can happen that's a one okay and that essentially drops out as well 01:16:43.380 --> 01:16:49.700 um probably it's not what you're going to be most people probably won't be working with a one 01:16:49.700 --> 01:16:55.700 you're probably going to have graded consequences for multiple targets right so would you have a 01:16:55.700 --> 01:17:04.500 different equation for each target or uh yeah yeah you would you would you would have uh what's the risk 01:17:05.380 --> 01:17:15.540 you um is it an overall measurement of overall security for like your entire data center or site or is it 01:17:15.540 --> 01:17:26.340 like what is the overall uh uh ratio or the overall measurement of our data center versus the overall 01:17:26.340 --> 01:17:32.260 measurement of let's say of somebody of losing your servers in your data center or overall uh 01:17:32.260 --> 01:17:37.380 possibility of losing your telephone lines leading into your data center are those two separate 01:17:37.380 --> 01:17:41.300 things i mean one's going to affect the other but all right they're two totally different 01:17:41.300 --> 01:17:48.980 targets how do i how do i explain this uh and that's a great great question um and you know 01:17:48.980 --> 01:17:58.340 i've done it a lot how do you explain it um and i've done it well well it seems like they would stack 01:17:58.340 --> 01:18:03.380 like um the one the the chance of it affecting your phone lines coming into your building is definitely 01:18:03.380 --> 01:18:09.060 going to take down your data center so the data center would incorporate that however the phone one would 01:18:09.060 --> 01:18:13.700 be separate it doesn't incorporate the other data center risks like that it might be catch on fire 01:18:13.700 --> 01:18:21.620 inside of there no it's got its own separate risks like a like a tractor running a over the telephone 01:18:21.620 --> 01:18:27.060 pole and knocking it out and you lose communications it's other it seems like there's independent ones 01:18:27.060 --> 01:18:32.420 yet they are at the same time can be intertwined sometimes okay and let me and i've got my easy out 01:18:32.420 --> 01:18:37.780 and that is it depends on the system right so and it's all those it's all those things you mentioned 01:18:37.780 --> 01:18:43.380 and they're all bad guys it's a bad guy with a tractor and it's an arson causing the fire wow true it 01:18:43.380 --> 01:18:51.140 depends on the system so and giving a week and we let's and let me think of let me let me make up an 01:18:51.140 --> 01:19:01.540 example here okay um if you do have um if your you know your team your your trunks coming in are important 01:19:02.100 --> 01:19:10.020 and they've got their own security right even if it is being underground and it's you know or in a locked 01:19:10.020 --> 01:19:17.300 vault whatever it is um you would calculate the risk of somebody attacking that right right um 01:19:17.300 --> 01:19:24.180 um and then if you've got uh let's say your 01:19:26.260 --> 01:19:29.780 and that's and that's problem because it's a little it's kind of nebulous getting into the cyber 01:19:29.780 --> 01:19:33.300 stuff like your connectivity right the risk of your connectivity wow 01:19:34.420 --> 01:19:38.900 well i mean i'm envisioning you know like you're in a big office building in new york or well just an 01:19:38.900 --> 01:19:44.180 office building anywhere and right the building controls the the incoming phone lines and all the 01:19:44.180 --> 01:19:48.420 trunks and stuff is separate and independent from your data center on the 12th floor right which 01:19:48.420 --> 01:19:53.540 has its own card swiping and its own physical security and its own you know right and they 01:19:53.540 --> 01:19:59.140 are interdependent and then it is part of of calculating the overall system risk and you can do 01:19:59.140 --> 01:20:06.580 that uh i wouldn't i wouldn't recommend that right now let's just talk about let's let's look at some 01:20:06.580 --> 01:20:16.820 simple systems and let's look at um uh let's look at calculating the risk for for your target or 01:20:16.820 --> 01:20:24.980 targets right whether it is your your pop or this important server or the room that's in the data center 01:20:24.980 --> 01:20:29.140 because you've got you've got you know undoubtedly you've got some servers that are more important 01:20:29.140 --> 01:20:32.980 than others and what are the risks you know how do you protect how do you use your resources to 01:20:32.980 --> 01:20:37.940 protect those individual servers well as well as using your resources to protect the entire room 01:20:38.500 --> 01:20:45.620 well let's we'll simplify that right now well okay let's let's protect the room first right and if you 01:20:45.620 --> 01:20:55.620 want to you know then just break it down right now interdependencies um you know off-site systems and how 01:20:55.620 --> 01:21:06.180 that affects your risk uh we we won't deal with that right now okay is that is that okay is that uh yeah 01:21:06.180 --> 01:21:12.980 well it's yeah i think i know what you're saying yeah it's it's going to it's that's that is absolutely 01:21:12.980 --> 01:21:20.100 a systems engineering problem and that's way more than i've prepared for and way more for a radio show 01:21:20.100 --> 01:21:26.100 right now we want to right because that's you know well there's a lot of decisions to be made 01:21:26.100 --> 01:21:32.260 there yeah from a lot of different people that's hence you know if you're going to protect an 01:21:32.260 --> 01:21:36.980 infrastructure it's a great question right well and it's not one we can finish up in these last five 01:21:36.980 --> 01:21:45.460 minutes so so we'll back off that one more advanced yeah all right so where do we go here with the last 01:21:45.460 --> 01:21:49.700 five minutes what how do we how do we summarize all this how do we wrap all this up well that's 01:21:50.260 --> 01:21:56.260 so you've got whatever right whatever system you have whether it's protecting a server or protecting 01:21:56.260 --> 01:22:04.100 a room right so you're so you've you've got uh uh the probability of attack right you've got your 01:22:04.100 --> 01:22:12.020 system effectiveness and you've got your consequence right right um and that's going to get you risk 01:22:12.020 --> 01:22:18.020 risk so now again let's let's say protecting the perimeter of this data center the integrity of 01:22:18.020 --> 01:22:30.260 this data center um given given those terms you calculate risk now you have okay the you know the 01:22:30.260 --> 01:22:37.300 risk of this bad guy coming in and and and lighting fire to this place and setting off the halon alarms 01:22:37.300 --> 01:22:52.500 is this amount all right so now you need to use that number use the the the work you did up front um 01:22:54.100 --> 01:23:00.900 characterizing facility determining all the things signing the system and then using the resources that 01:23:00.900 --> 01:23:14.180 you have to uh improve security how do i how do i say this you want you want to get the best cost benefit 01:23:14.180 --> 01:23:20.660 out of your resources so if you can spend a small amount of money and get a large increase in security 01:23:20.660 --> 01:23:26.500 right to essentially decreasing risk you want to do that and that's what risk enables you to do well 01:23:26.500 --> 01:23:32.340 that you calculate the risk right of the of uh i guess this kind of goes back to your question 01:23:32.340 --> 01:23:37.380 all right let me yeah actually i think i think maybe i have a a good i'll try let me you tell me if this 01:23:37.380 --> 01:23:42.980 is what you're if this is a good example let's say like my example earlier of two different areas of 01:23:42.980 --> 01:23:48.100 attack two different risks that you're looking at the risk of um your phone connection to the building 01:23:48.100 --> 01:23:54.020 going out which therefore disrupts your business versus the chance that your server 01:23:54.020 --> 01:23:59.380 uh an employee breaks into your server uh an employee breaks into your server and erases the data off of 01:23:59.380 --> 01:24:08.660 it okay two different things well the if you can stop the first of those examples if you can say 01:24:08.660 --> 01:24:14.420 if you can lower the risk of your phone lines being cut off by simply putting a five dollar lock on 01:24:14.420 --> 01:24:21.540 the door to the room you have to determine that using that ratio versus spending fifty thousand dollars to 01:24:21.540 --> 01:24:28.020 add a card swipe system on that lab to allow certain employees in and out of it or not you got 01:24:28.020 --> 01:24:34.180 to make a decision of how to spend that money to best lower the risk of all of the possibilities that 01:24:34.180 --> 01:24:39.060 you have in front of you perfect is that right is that good i mean if you can spend a five dollars 01:24:39.060 --> 01:24:43.940 to and that'll lower your overall risk of a lot of different things or actually lower your risk 01:24:43.940 --> 01:24:48.980 on two or three different things since they're interrelated that that's the decision and that's why you do the 01:24:48.980 --> 01:24:55.060 analysis to figure out how best to apply your budget and your resources to lower the overall risk 01:24:55.620 --> 01:25:00.580 by addressing the ones that are most severe with the best application of funds available 01:25:00.580 --> 01:25:04.340 absolutely that's perfect well said i just pulled that right out of my ass 01:25:04.900 --> 01:25:09.780 that's great and that's what it is you know and and and as far as as far as you know the boundaries of 01:25:09.780 --> 01:25:17.220 your system you know where where where to calculate risk and where to spend money you know that's 01:25:17.220 --> 01:25:21.540 that's going to be again it's going to be right it's subjective say that and it is my on and i'll 01:25:21.540 --> 01:25:27.620 take it right now you know you that's you know that's what you're going to have to determine that's 01:25:27.620 --> 01:25:32.580 what you're going to when you go out and you get that pi right you you calculate you go through 01:25:32.580 --> 01:25:37.780 whether it is from the lines coming in all the way to the the one server you know you need to determine 01:25:37.780 --> 01:25:43.380 that and where you know you can you you can you can put all of it all into one big giant system 01:25:43.380 --> 01:25:48.820 and calculate i've got this one risk number for my whole you know when right you know that's you 01:25:48.820 --> 01:25:53.940 know yeah well yeah you can do that but i don't recommend it yeah it's a case-by-case basis like you 01:25:53.940 --> 01:25:58.980 said of what's the best and i think that's the best way to wrap the whole thing up because we're 01:25:58.980 --> 01:26:03.380 we're not going to leave ourselves much time here to close out is i mean is that really it's gone 01:26:03.380 --> 01:26:09.380 already okay it's going that quick man yeah and i hope you know and i know it's oversimplified 01:26:10.340 --> 01:26:16.500 if anything familiarization with the terms is going to be is going to be powerful for you and knowing 01:26:16.500 --> 01:26:22.420 okay this is generally how this is this is what risk is about and this is how i can calculate it 01:26:22.420 --> 01:26:29.140 you know and and try it out on a simple system right try it out on something you know your your 01:26:29.140 --> 01:26:36.740 your computers in your home try it all right well and um and again a lot of the terminology 01:26:36.740 --> 01:26:41.460 and stuff that is something you should at least be aware of and know about even if you don't do 01:26:41.460 --> 01:26:46.420 one yourself or don't find yourself in the position you at least have that knowledge now to know what 01:26:46.420 --> 01:26:51.140 you're looking for in an assessment if somebody else does it you'll be able to spot the flaws and 01:26:51.140 --> 01:26:56.020 you'll know you're not going to get screwed because you know more about what they're doing now and 01:26:56.020 --> 01:27:01.540 what to expect from them so you'll know absolutely this is a primer this is going to get you ready 01:27:01.540 --> 01:27:08.100 there's a lot more to this way more way more than i know so but this this should this should help 01:27:08.100 --> 01:27:14.980 everyone all right well let's jump into some shouts here to close out the show um i'll stall and go 01:27:14.980 --> 01:27:19.380 first a little bit i of course i'm going to give shouts to everybody in the ddp kind of that friendship 01:27:19.380 --> 01:27:25.140 thing earlier you know i gotta i gotta bring up i gotta give shouts to a acidus to a lonka good friends of 01:27:25.140 --> 01:27:29.540 mine i mean so many people and you know i'm going to give shouts to the moderating team because i 01:27:29.540 --> 01:27:34.580 don't do that nearly enough and right now as you're listening to this i'm actually out of town 01:27:35.460 --> 01:27:39.940 again for work i'm quite frequently out of town and they're running the site they're running the 01:27:39.940 --> 01:27:45.300 forums and everything so big shouts to them they're doing such a great job and i i lean on them so much 01:27:45.300 --> 01:27:50.180 so i appreciate everything that they're doing and i'll cross into your shots with one i know you'll 01:27:50.180 --> 01:27:55.780 back me up on and that's our good friend bland inquisitor oh yeah the bland inquizzle nizzle 01:27:55.780 --> 01:28:05.140 nipple flipple that's awesome what else you got oh yeah i want to give shouts to mrs parallel oh yeah 01:28:05.140 --> 01:28:10.260 and uh you threw me for a loop she came into the like i'm in the middle of the stuff she came into the 01:28:10.260 --> 01:28:18.820 room kind of a little disarming don't even don't oh so yeah big shouts to my wife thank you for 01:28:19.380 --> 01:28:27.540 and uh i'd like to uh give shouts to you stank i love you stank you i think you do so much uh for the 01:28:27.540 --> 01:28:36.100 community uh you probably don't get thanked enough also uh big shouts to uh shouts to um uh hacksaw pink 01:28:36.100 --> 01:28:50.660 dugan uh uh who he already did that yeah not during notice and uh white sword and vh slip and the phoenix 01:28:50.660 --> 01:28:58.420 crew logic and uh just so many people the scene you know the scene really is uh good you know 01:28:58.420 --> 01:29:02.900 there's a there's some bad things and bad things that have happened and bad people but for the most 01:29:02.900 --> 01:29:11.860 part it is um uh just like i don't mean this in a religious fashion but like but the biblical way 01:29:11.860 --> 01:29:17.940 it's there's good you know there's a good in a man's heart or evil the this you know the community 01:29:17.940 --> 01:29:23.620 the hacking community is good and getting better i think yeah i agree and getting better our site of 01:29:23.620 --> 01:29:29.540 the week this week is about us.org it's a wiki page that has lots of information about different 01:29:29.540 --> 01:29:35.300 websites out there kind of got some who is stuff it's got some summary screenshots alexa information 01:29:35.860 --> 01:29:41.860 nice little place to go uh find out about websites and dual is a noob.com dual is a noob.com 01:29:41.860 --> 01:29:49.540 uh japan japan.com uh is it japan.com oh there's yeah tokyo.tools.com 01:29:49.540 --> 01:29:54.180 i'm sorry tokyo already but you know i just i still like it though i don't pin my site 01:29:54.980 --> 01:29:58.820 you know so hey what the hell take advantage and hopefully there's something there that 01:29:58.820 --> 01:30:03.620 somebody might be able to use that's that's my only goal the picture of the tokyo chicks is worth it 01:30:03.620 --> 01:30:10.660 for me yeah yeah email us uh for feedback of any kind to radio at binrev.com closing music this 01:30:10.660 --> 01:30:15.780 week is mc lars a track called hurricane fresh i don't think i've used this before but if i did 01:30:15.780 --> 01:30:21.540 you're going to hear it again and dual my friend thank you for being on the show yes i love you too 01:30:21.540 --> 01:30:25.140 thanks thanks and tell everybody that we're going to see him next week same hack time 01:30:25.140 --> 01:30:37.060 stay back channel 01:30:49.700 --> 01:30:52.980 oh snap you know this track is fly so get crunked up and don't ask why post rap post bunk post 01:30:52.980 --> 01:30:53.840 Don't ask why 01:30:53.840 --> 01:30:55.740 Post rap, post punk, post Kurt Cobain 01:30:55.740 --> 01:30:57.720 Post cool modi, post house of pain 01:30:57.720 --> 01:30:59.620 Chuck D told me that I had to be me 01:30:59.620 --> 01:31:01.520 So I bought the public enemy CD 01:31:01.520 --> 01:31:03.520 A Rick one track in MP3 01:31:03.520 --> 01:31:05.560 Till Lars Ulrich came after me 01:31:05.560 --> 01:31:07.420 I said it's me, your last nephew 01:31:07.420 --> 01:31:09.440 He said no way, that can't be true 01:31:09.440 --> 01:31:11.420 I kicked him with my Converse shoe 01:31:11.420 --> 01:31:13.320 All the way to Timbuktu 01:31:13.320 --> 01:31:15.300 A wolf and Ulrich, sad but true 01:31:15.300 --> 01:31:17.180 He lived there for a year or two 01:31:17.180 --> 01:31:19.260 He mastered puppetry alone 01:31:19.260 --> 01:31:21.140 Just as for Sean Fanning clones 01:31:21.140 --> 01:31:23.140 Now that's fresh, now that's switch, let's switch 01:31:23.140 --> 01:31:25.040 Get fresh, now that's fresh, let's switch 01:31:25.040 --> 01:31:27.060 I get fresh, now that's fresh, let's switch 01:31:27.060 --> 01:31:28.620 Get fresh, now that's fresh 01:31:28.620 --> 01:31:29.620 Now that's fresh, now that's fresh 01:31:29.620 --> 01:31:32.800 Now that's fresh, now that's fresh, let's switch 01:31:32.800 --> 01:31:34.920 I get fresh, now that's fresh, let's switch 01:31:34.920 --> 01:31:36.420 I get fresh, now that's fresh 01:31:36.420 --> 01:31:38.780 My dad's named Bob, he toured with me 01:31:38.780 --> 01:31:40.640 When a UK licenses put out my CD 01:31:40.640 --> 01:31:42.520 I got Matpots from the BBC 01:31:42.520 --> 01:31:44.600 But hip-hop heads still don't get me 01:31:44.600 --> 01:31:46.660 So I take a chance, I ride with it, so what 01:31:46.660 --> 01:31:48.600 I like Chris Brown and Beyonce's butt 01:31:48.600 --> 01:31:50.560 Whatever your race, all friends drew you 01:31:50.560 --> 01:31:52.420 And rent to Spike Lee, Netflix too 01:31:52.420 --> 01:31:54.500 And I still wrap shows and try to dance 01:31:54.500 --> 01:31:56.300 Still rock Simpsons underpants 01:31:56.300 --> 01:31:58.280 And I still like Rush and Dr. Drake 01:31:58.280 --> 01:32:00.220 I still keep bumpin' N.W.A. 01:32:00.220 --> 01:32:02.160 I get fresh on the mic like I'm elpin' on duty 01:32:02.160 --> 01:32:04.240 So burn the Cisco to the ground and baby shake that booty 01:32:04.240 --> 01:32:06.260 I attack the track like a Steve Seagal movie 01:32:06.260 --> 01:32:08.140 3D fresh, not 2D fruity 01:32:08.140 --> 01:32:10.700 Now that's fresh, now that's fresh, that's fresh, get fresh 01:32:10.700 --> 01:32:12.640 Now that's fresh, that's fresh, I get fresh 01:32:12.640 --> 01:32:14.600 Now that's fresh, that's fresh, get fresh 01:32:14.600 --> 01:32:16.580 Now that's fresh, now that's fresh 01:32:16.580 --> 01:32:18.540 Now that's fresh, that's fresh, get fresh 01:32:18.540 --> 01:32:20.460 Now that's fresh, that's fresh, I get fresh 01:32:20.460 --> 01:32:22.420 Now that's fresh, that's fresh, get fresh 01:32:22.420 --> 01:32:24.280 Now that's fresh, oh five 01:32:24.280 --> 01:32:25.780 So live, I've been doin' this for years 01:32:25.780 --> 01:32:27.740 Makin' money cause I'm funny with this music of the spheres 01:32:27.740 --> 01:32:29.620 And I dance, hey watch me dance 01:32:29.620 --> 01:32:31.760 Goofy MCs can't be me, even if they had the chance 01:32:31.760 --> 01:32:33.320 Pandora, have you seen Persephone? 01:32:33.620 --> 01:32:35.540 Hey these rapies got me goin' like KR's O&E 01:32:35.540 --> 01:32:37.580 Why's that? I don't know, MCs act if they don't know 01:32:37.580 --> 01:32:39.440 I poison this track with a scorpion flow 01:32:39.440 --> 01:32:41.140 Because I rock the mic, like a hurricane 01:32:41.140 --> 01:32:43.100 Because I rock the mic, like a hurricane 01:32:43.100 --> 01:32:45.060 Because I rock the mic, like a hurricane 01:32:45.060 --> 01:32:47.260 Because I rock the mic, hurricane fresh 01:32:47.260 --> 01:32:49.840 Now that's fresh, now that's fresh, that's fresh, get fresh 01:32:49.840 --> 01:32:57.900 Now that's fresh, let's fish, I get fresh 01:32:57.900 --> 01:32:59.820 Now that's fresh, now that's fresh 01:32:59.820 --> 01:33:01.540 Now that's fresh, let's fish get fresh 01:33:01.540 --> 01:33:05.380 Now that's fresh, let's get fresh 01:33:05.380 --> 01:33:11.620 Now that's fresh, now that's fresh 01:33:11.620 --> 01:33:15.860 Now that's fresh, let's fish, get fresh 01:33:15.860 --> 01:33:17.180 Make it fresh, make it fresh, get it fresh 01:33:17.180 --> 01:33:18.680 Come on, hurricane fresh 01:33:18.680 --> 01:33:21.340 Fresh, fresh, fresh, fresh, fresh, fresh, fresh