WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:09.440 This is dedicated to all the hackers and the crackers, to the hackers and the crackers. 00:09.760 --> 00:15.520 I see in binary, I speak source code, step on my toes, I'll post a million jpegs of you 00:15.520 --> 00:20.800 in a fag pose, in your digital stance, getting firewalls hoes, cause I'm riding the net in 00:20.800 --> 00:26.440 my six foes, I was a dick with my 56, now with my cable I'm able to get that stable, 00:26.440 --> 00:31.740 on the out, my name is Ace and I'm a Leo, on the digital highway, my name is Neo and 00:31.740 --> 00:37.240 I'm a hero, in a flash, I'll screw you on burning dreamcast, you need some ISO, let me through 00:37.240 --> 00:42.680 my hard drive rifle, our exchange you could never stifle, and a digital hug, you just caught 00:42.680 --> 00:48.940 the love bug, I bootlegged your CD, I caused the fight between Un and Jay-Z, cause CG, it's 00:48.940 --> 00:53.380 all gonna be free, whether we take it by force or we take it nicely, you feel that rattle 00:53.380 --> 00:57.920 it in your bones, when I tell you we just packed out Jones, and NASDAQ leaves you flat 00:57.920 --> 01:02.920 on your back, cause I am he who loves to hack and crack, cause I am he who loves to hack 01:02.920 --> 01:09.020 and crack, this is dedicated to the hackers and the crackers, serial phones, source codes, 01:09.180 --> 01:13.420 ISO, RAM, SIS, this is dedicated to the hackers and the crack, this is dedicated to the hackers 01:13.420 --> 01:14.200 and the crackers. 01:14.580 --> 01:21.120 Hello, and welcome to Binary Revolution Radio, episode 172. 01:21.120 --> 01:27.240 Today's date is November 7th, 2006, and last week it was Halloween, and today's election 01:27.240 --> 01:31.360 day, for those of you listening in the United States, and for those of you who don't have 01:31.360 --> 01:36.940 like ass-backwards law, of which it was somehow like another previous election, I don't know, 01:37.640 --> 01:38.200 there's crazy stuff. 01:38.280 --> 01:41.880 I'm Black Ratchet, your host for the evening, and with me this evening is Stank Dog. 01:42.740 --> 01:43.100 Yay! 01:44.660 --> 01:45.940 Hooray voting! 01:45.940 --> 01:50.160 I feel like half the audience was like, oh crap, he's back, click. 01:50.440 --> 01:53.700 Yeah, exactly, damn it, I thought we got rid of Stank Dog. 01:54.280 --> 01:59.960 Yeah, well, actually, someone sent me an email saying, oh my god, I can't believe you're 01:59.960 --> 02:01.440 back, it's wonderful. 02:02.580 --> 02:08.940 Yeah, I was just like, wow, I guess people like me, I don't know who that, I think, actually, 02:08.940 --> 02:11.360 I think he's in the email this week, but just not that email. 02:11.360 --> 02:16.080 So, yeah, I thought I had a filter on that blocked out all those messages of people like 02:16.080 --> 02:17.900 you, but I guess one slipped through. 02:18.400 --> 02:18.620 Yeah. 02:19.320 --> 02:19.780 Oh, well. 02:21.560 --> 02:25.900 Anyway, so, what is this, episode 172? 02:26.420 --> 02:26.820 172. 02:27.380 --> 02:31.260 And since this is voting day, that's, I guess, our theme for the show today? 02:31.720 --> 02:34.060 Yes, yes, actually it is, that's why we actually decided to bring it up. 02:34.640 --> 02:39.300 By the way, I loved last week's episode with the sound effects and stuff in the background 02:39.300 --> 02:41.360 for Halloween, that was classic, that was good stuff. 02:42.320 --> 02:46.100 Isn't, wouldn't that be like our first Halloween special, like that was actually airing on 02:46.100 --> 02:46.440 Halloween? 02:47.020 --> 02:50.760 I don't, I think so, we might have made some allegations, but I think that was the first 02:50.760 --> 02:53.940 time it aired on Halloween that I can think of, I guess we have to check the archives, 02:54.100 --> 02:54.220 but. 02:54.220 --> 02:58.300 Yeah, so I just like, it was like, it just occurred to me, oh man, when I'm editing all 02:58.300 --> 03:01.720 this stuff up, let's go put some crazy sound effects in there, and I just wanted to get 03:01.720 --> 03:05.400 like, I actually, I was just playing like, do it like once or twice, and I really got 03:05.400 --> 03:05.960 carried away. 03:05.960 --> 03:09.920 Yeah, there were a couple points where it like, overlaid the talk, it was obviously 03:09.920 --> 03:11.820 an afterthought, but. 03:11.860 --> 03:12.440 Oh yeah, totally. 03:12.960 --> 03:16.540 The first time it came through, I was laughing out loud, pretty, I was, I was, I was lolling 03:16.540 --> 03:17.020 at that one. 03:17.220 --> 03:20.320 He was lolling, he was doing the loller skates and the roffle copters. 03:20.840 --> 03:23.940 No, I wasn't roffle, I wasn't in the roffle copter, but I was loller skating. 03:24.080 --> 03:24.340 Oh. 03:25.080 --> 03:25.340 Yeah. 03:26.140 --> 03:27.420 In my headphones at work. 03:29.140 --> 03:32.740 Everyone thought Stank was insane at work, going, oh my god, I don't know what he's 03:32.740 --> 03:33.260 listening to. 03:33.880 --> 03:35.560 Oh, they already all know that, don't worry. 03:35.960 --> 03:37.880 That has been previously established. 03:39.000 --> 03:43.540 Hey, you know what, let's do, let's do, we have kind of a theme for the show, but let's 03:43.540 --> 03:47.200 do kind of an old school show, because like, I have a couple other little things, let's 03:47.200 --> 03:50.460 do housekeeping this time, I know we don't, we kind of cut that out, but let's do some 03:50.460 --> 03:51.660 housekeeping later on, what do you think? 03:51.800 --> 03:55.460 Well, see, I do housekeeping, because it's always like, fun to address issues that have 03:55.460 --> 03:59.980 been previously brought up, but I didn't have any housekeeping this time, do you want 03:59.980 --> 04:01.920 to like, bring something up right now, or do you want to wait later? 04:01.920 --> 04:06.240 Like, no, we can wait until later, like, remember back in like season one of the show, it used 04:06.240 --> 04:11.240 to be like shotgun style, I used to call it, where it was like multiple topics, and you 04:11.240 --> 04:17.100 know, the long time listeners know that I read entirely too much, so like I get a bajillion 04:17.100 --> 04:20.460 magazines, and I would bring up some of the articles I thought were interesting or worth 04:20.460 --> 04:25.840 talking about on the show, and I had an article I wanted to talk about, and I had a kind of 04:25.840 --> 04:29.560 a physical hacking thing I wanted to talk about, so we'll save it until later on when 04:29.560 --> 04:32.560 we get there, but yeah, let's do kind of an old school throwback show to see if you want. 04:32.560 --> 04:38.320 Well, actually, we got a pretty good physical security email in the mailbag this week, so 04:38.320 --> 04:40.500 perhaps you can actually might work that in there. 04:41.560 --> 04:46.480 Well, so what do you think, housekeeping email, you push the show, I'm just going to sit back 04:46.480 --> 04:46.920 and be quiet. 04:47.260 --> 04:53.320 All right, well, I'm like, oh crap, who was that guy from Greek mythology who rolls up the 04:53.320 --> 04:58.620 stone up the hill all day, and then has to like, see, this is why, this shows you I 04:58.620 --> 05:00.900 read entirely too much, because I know the answer to this question. 05:01.760 --> 05:02.920 That would be Sisyphus. 05:03.400 --> 05:04.500 Sisyphus, thank you. 05:04.900 --> 05:08.900 Who would roll it up one side of the hill, only to have it roll back down, and he'd have 05:08.900 --> 05:13.600 to roll it back up the other side of the hill, and continually caught, so yeah. 05:13.640 --> 05:18.080 Well, would you rather be Sisyphus, or how do you pronounce his name, or the guy that's 05:18.080 --> 05:23.840 basically tied up, and his, like a bird eats his liver every day, and then it grows back? 05:24.460 --> 05:26.840 Well, you know, there's six of one, half a dozen of the other. 05:26.900 --> 05:27.820 I'd rather roll the broccoli. 05:28.040 --> 05:28.520 Yeah, me too. 05:28.520 --> 05:31.500 I tell you what, listen, I've got to be honest with you right now, I'm going through a little 05:31.500 --> 05:32.140 torture myself. 05:32.240 --> 05:33.040 You have cats, right? 05:33.380 --> 05:33.600 Yeah. 05:34.740 --> 05:36.540 Well, actually, I don't currently have catfart. 05:36.540 --> 05:40.300 Man, I've got to close the door or something. 05:40.780 --> 05:41.060 Jeez. 05:42.060 --> 05:44.680 Man, there's nothing in the world worse than a catfart. 05:45.820 --> 05:51.600 I can't say that I ever have actually smelt my catfart, or perhaps I just missed it on 05:51.600 --> 05:52.160 somebody else. 05:53.180 --> 05:55.200 Maybe it's all that Florida food you feed. 05:55.280 --> 05:59.580 Yeah, we feed our cats beans and sausages down here. 06:00.040 --> 06:02.360 No, man, all I feed my cats is pixie sticks. 06:05.000 --> 06:07.880 I'm eating right now, baby, leftover from Halloween. 06:08.200 --> 06:09.100 Hey, it's Halloween, man. 06:09.680 --> 06:12.880 I'm in my house, and I'm eating my tubes of pixie sticks. 06:13.980 --> 06:15.440 Beautiful tubes. 06:16.320 --> 06:18.220 All right, we've gone way off topic here. 06:18.340 --> 06:20.960 Let's steer it back to shore there, Ratchet. 06:21.380 --> 06:22.560 Oh, come on, it'd be fun. 06:22.680 --> 06:23.560 Pixie sticks are fun. 06:23.700 --> 06:23.720 I know. 06:23.820 --> 06:27.860 Like, you know, feeding a pixie stick to a ferret and just watching it break Mach 1. 06:29.480 --> 06:30.780 It's like an episode of Family Guy. 06:30.840 --> 06:33.460 It's like that time, and then we go to some weird segue. 06:33.460 --> 06:36.760 All right. 06:37.840 --> 06:38.780 Okay, let's let one. 06:38.800 --> 06:39.600 That was my Peter Griffin. 06:41.840 --> 06:43.340 Going way off course here. 06:43.580 --> 06:47.200 All right, do you want to go into email here to start a salvage an episode? 06:47.720 --> 06:48.740 Sure, let's do it. 06:48.740 --> 07:16.580 All right, so you start the email. 07:16.580 --> 07:17.960 I'll read some if you get tired. 07:18.040 --> 07:19.680 I'll read some if you want, but you go ahead and start. 07:19.960 --> 07:23.760 Okay, our first email is from Vector, and I actually think this is the guy who sent me the email. 07:23.920 --> 07:25.160 Oh, my God, it's Black Ratchet. 07:25.160 --> 07:30.140 Hey, I just wanted to let you guys know that I fucking love BinRev. 07:30.200 --> 07:30.920 It's my homepage. 07:31.620 --> 07:37.880 I stumbled across BinRev about five months ago looking for a good hacking podcast or net radio show or whatever people call them. 07:38.560 --> 07:39.600 I've been hooked ever since. 07:39.700 --> 07:43.400 I recently started hanging out in the forums, and I've got to say, they are great. 07:43.860 --> 07:48.160 I'm there every fucking day, and I know this probably sounds retarded. 07:48.160 --> 07:51.980 Are you retarded if you can't spell retarded probably? 07:54.300 --> 07:55.980 Sorry, Vector, I had to take the jab. 07:56.020 --> 07:57.800 Yeah, it was sitting right there. 07:58.200 --> 08:00.700 I had to stop myself from saying something. 08:00.700 --> 08:08.340 This probably sounds retarded, but I actually get excited when Tuesday comes, because I know the new episode comes out. 08:08.980 --> 08:13.080 I've learned a lot listening to the past episodes and talking to people on the forums. 08:13.220 --> 08:18.320 I just wanted to say that BinRev fucking rocks, and I love it, and keep up the awesome work. 08:18.420 --> 08:19.240 Oh, fuck that. 08:19.360 --> 08:21.820 The BinRev haters, they lick my balls. 08:22.320 --> 08:22.600 Vector. 08:23.460 --> 08:25.360 Lick my balls, Mr. Garrison. 08:26.980 --> 08:27.600 I don't know. 08:27.640 --> 08:28.560 I'm in a voice mood today. 08:28.560 --> 08:36.460 I'm warning all the listeners that I might be throwing in a lot of my patented, terrible, terrible, terrible impersonations or whatever. 08:36.800 --> 08:39.140 That's just an authentication tool that we know it's you. 08:39.740 --> 08:40.580 Yeah, exactly. 08:40.820 --> 08:42.900 That's how you know it's the real stank. 08:45.160 --> 08:50.280 Well, thanks, Vector, for giving us mad props there, I guess. 08:50.400 --> 08:55.280 But if he really makes the BinRev homepage his homepage, perhaps StankDog might want to update it a little more often. 08:56.560 --> 08:57.560 Yeah, it's the foo. 08:57.960 --> 08:58.140 Yeah. 08:58.940 --> 09:00.240 That's the whole point of the blog. 09:00.340 --> 09:02.340 We're posting all our news on the blog now. 09:02.940 --> 09:04.740 The B-L-A-W-G, the blog. 09:05.140 --> 09:05.780 Do you want to do one? 09:05.800 --> 09:06.800 Instead of having to update. 09:07.260 --> 09:12.900 Because we see, the thing is, the thing with the BinRev site is that it's on our list, first of all, 09:12.940 --> 09:16.880 to kind of re-engineer the whole thing, redesign the whole thing. 09:16.880 --> 09:19.880 But it's low on the list because we've got so many other things going on. 09:19.880 --> 09:21.620 But it's all custom code. 09:21.620 --> 09:28.920 So to actually update the homepage on the thing, you have to go in and actually edit the HTML and add all this news and stuff. 09:29.000 --> 09:30.460 And it's not like it's hard or anything. 09:30.580 --> 09:33.540 It just takes a little time as opposed to going over to the blog. 09:33.540 --> 09:33.820 HTML. 09:34.320 --> 09:34.760 Yeah. 09:34.760 --> 09:34.940 Yeah. 09:34.940 --> 09:40.620 As opposed to going over to the blog and just adding a new post entry or whatever, 09:40.720 --> 09:44.120 which actually sometimes that can be a pain in the ass too, but that's a whole other topic. 09:44.120 --> 09:53.400 I liked when we were running WordPress, whatever it was, 1.5 or whatever the previous major release was 09:53.400 --> 09:59.080 because I do not like their new AJAX, you know, JavaScript, crazy-ass editor. 10:00.400 --> 10:08.580 Yeah, well, it's security problems in the 1.5 and we probably jumped to 1.2.0. 10:08.580 --> 10:10.920 Yeah, we probably jumped to 2.0 pretty quickly. 10:10.920 --> 10:16.240 Yeah, by the way, I'm just waiting and watching day by day for the inevitable attacks on the site 10:16.240 --> 10:21.020 for people who think we have a vulnerable envision thinking we're running it in maintenance mode. 10:21.080 --> 10:21.780 It's kind of fun. 10:22.640 --> 10:28.340 Every time some new zero day comes out, oh, of course we keep everything patched and all that kind of good stuff. 10:28.560 --> 10:29.120 No, no, no. 10:29.160 --> 10:30.160 I mean, have we seen anybody? 10:30.360 --> 10:31.880 I would hope that we have it patched. 10:31.920 --> 10:32.640 Thank you very much. 10:33.040 --> 10:33.980 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 10:33.980 --> 10:34.940 That's taken care of. 10:35.200 --> 10:37.520 And I watched the logs. 10:37.560 --> 10:38.560 I haven't actually looked to see. 10:38.620 --> 10:39.920 It just came out a couple days ago. 10:39.920 --> 10:43.400 But we were never – actually, there was no patch to be – I mean, we're not affected by it. 10:43.480 --> 10:44.160 I mean, who runs it? 10:44.940 --> 10:46.100 It's attacking boards. 10:46.220 --> 10:48.680 That's the funny thing is people don't even understand or realize what it does. 10:48.740 --> 10:52.680 They just see it in the skitties, get a hold of it, and they just go Google search for 10:52.680 --> 10:57.520 Powered by Envision 2.0 whatever, whatever, and then they just start running it blindly. 10:57.620 --> 10:58.880 They don't even understand what it does. 10:59.140 --> 11:00.420 That's what skitties do. 11:00.520 --> 11:04.640 That's why we ate the script kitties because they'll go out there, and sometimes it'll work 11:04.640 --> 11:05.820 even though they don't know what they're doing. 11:05.820 --> 11:10.500 But in this case, the exploit itself – I don't know if I'm dragging this off topic here, 11:10.520 --> 11:15.560 but the exploit itself basically affects only if you go into – I guess let's call it 11:15.560 --> 11:16.100 maintenance mode. 11:16.140 --> 11:17.200 I think there's a different term for it. 11:17.200 --> 11:21.500 But when you go into maintenance mode or a certain debug level, you only turn that on 11:21.500 --> 11:24.080 where you're like doing testing of the forums or anything like that. 11:24.840 --> 11:28.580 You'll turn it on, and it basically shows a lot more debugging information on every page. 11:28.580 --> 11:33.560 Like debugging information, meaning like if you ever notice at the bottom of some pages 11:33.560 --> 11:37.160 it says page rendered in however many milliseconds or whatever like that. 11:37.360 --> 11:41.480 It'll give you a lot more information like what tables is being hit, if there's any log, 11:41.560 --> 11:46.160 if there's any slowdown, and what the exact thread ID, just different information to help 11:46.160 --> 11:47.880 you kind of isolate and debug problems. 11:48.240 --> 11:50.600 Nobody leaves it or runs it in that mode. 11:50.600 --> 11:56.360 I mean, it's just like that exploit is only going to affect those people who have it in 11:56.360 --> 11:58.240 that mode, and you just don't. 11:58.240 --> 12:03.280 Even if we wanted to do debugging and testing, we have a whole other instance that's completely 12:03.280 --> 12:07.980 off the server or somewhere else, completely password protected that we go in and we do 12:07.980 --> 12:10.480 all that testing ahead of time before we roll anything into production. 12:10.660 --> 12:13.600 So it's never going to be – that type of attack is never going to be an issue. 12:13.740 --> 12:17.560 But again, the skitties that don't read that and pay attention to what it does are certainly 12:17.560 --> 12:21.880 going to go out there and try to just execute it, run it against us, and fail miserably. 12:22.000 --> 12:25.300 Like, remember all those ones that we saw on the forums that were like that swing of gibberish? 12:25.600 --> 12:26.400 Oh, my gosh. 12:26.700 --> 12:33.520 Well, actually, I distinctly remember that because I get a – it's like 6 a.m. in the morning. 12:33.640 --> 12:35.280 Well, actually, no, I think it was closer to 7. 12:35.780 --> 12:39.860 And it was a weekday, and I'm getting on the bus going up to Boston because that's how 12:39.860 --> 12:42.680 I commute in every day, or used to at that point. 12:43.100 --> 12:46.380 And I get like – I check my – I do what I usually do. 12:46.380 --> 12:50.720 I sit down, and I, you know, situate myself, and I rip out my hip top, which my hip top 12:50.720 --> 12:51.700 has been retired, by the way. 12:51.760 --> 12:53.120 We'll get into that in personal hacking stories. 12:54.080 --> 12:57.180 And I see like, you know, 15 billion reported posts. 12:57.280 --> 12:59.400 Like, literally, it was a full screen of them. 12:59.460 --> 13:00.880 And I'm going – I'm checking them out. 13:00.960 --> 13:04.620 I'm like, you know, someone's reporting me as, you know, attempted exploit, attempted 13:04.620 --> 13:05.740 exploit, attempted exploit. 13:05.800 --> 13:07.820 And I'm like, oh, ooh, that's not good. 13:08.540 --> 13:12.920 And I go check out Millworm, and I say, you know, envision PowerBoard exploit, you know, 13:13.680 --> 13:15.580 we'll, you know, do all these evil things. 13:15.580 --> 13:16.900 And I'm like, oh, crap. 13:17.000 --> 13:21.400 So I call up Stank, and I think I called you at like, you know, 710, and you're like, 13:21.440 --> 13:21.800 hello? 13:22.500 --> 13:23.220 Yeah, come on. 13:23.240 --> 13:25.460 Who'd be calling me at the butt crack of dawn like that? 13:26.740 --> 13:28.200 Well, you know, it was just one of those things. 13:28.820 --> 13:31.760 I'm like, well, you know, there's an envision – oh, okay. 13:32.800 --> 13:33.840 I'll go check it out. 13:34.400 --> 13:35.640 I'll call you back. 13:36.440 --> 13:38.380 Yeah, no, I get up at 715 anyway. 13:38.500 --> 13:38.960 We all know. 13:39.440 --> 13:40.080 It's all good. 13:40.080 --> 13:42.240 And, yeah, we patched it right away. 13:42.280 --> 13:42.920 It had nothing to it. 13:43.000 --> 13:47.500 It was – but, again, the skitties get out there and get to it first and start blindly 13:47.500 --> 13:49.100 running it. 13:49.880 --> 13:51.620 And the next thing you know, we're hacked by Chinese! 13:52.740 --> 13:53.440 Hacked by Chinese! 13:53.820 --> 13:55.260 Oh, God, I remember that. 13:55.360 --> 13:55.960 Oh, it's so funny. 13:56.300 --> 13:59.580 I remember when, like, you know, that was a Code Red thing. 13:59.580 --> 14:04.260 I think we discussed that in the last episode when Code Red started coming out. 14:04.380 --> 14:08.100 And, actually, you actually sometime went to Windows Update, depending on what load balance 14:08.100 --> 14:08.800 server you got. 14:09.440 --> 14:11.960 You went to – you got the big sign that says, hacked by Chinese! 14:12.140 --> 14:12.760 I'm like, oh! 14:13.920 --> 14:15.840 The Chinese have invaded Microsoft! 14:16.900 --> 14:17.300 All right. 14:17.640 --> 14:21.500 Well, anyway, now that I sidetracked the show once again – 14:21.500 --> 14:21.980 Hey, why not? 14:22.080 --> 14:23.220 It's a shotgun episode. 14:23.360 --> 14:23.860 Shotgun episode. 14:23.860 --> 14:24.380 That's right. 14:26.600 --> 14:28.340 But thanks, Vector, for making the show on page. 14:28.340 --> 14:28.800 That's pretty cool. 14:29.600 --> 14:29.940 Yeah, I know. 14:30.000 --> 14:34.080 I've got to say, I actually think he was – 14:34.080 --> 14:34.740 Lying? 14:35.220 --> 14:35.760 Well, no, no. 14:35.760 --> 14:36.420 I don't think he was lying. 14:36.480 --> 14:38.660 I think he probably made the forums his homepage. 14:39.760 --> 14:41.000 Yeah, a lot of people deep-linked. 14:41.020 --> 14:41.920 That's one thing I've noticed. 14:42.620 --> 14:45.800 A few people go to the front page anyway, which is yet another reason not to worry about 14:45.800 --> 14:47.480 updating it frequently or anything. 14:48.000 --> 14:51.980 And the only thing I want to post on that front page is, like, BinRev-specific announcements. 14:51.980 --> 14:56.680 You know, and, you know, we haven't really had anything BinRev-specific related lately 14:56.680 --> 14:57.840 that I haven't already posted. 14:57.840 --> 15:01.240 So I do have something to put up there kind of soon. 15:01.380 --> 15:04.700 But, again, we post most of that stuff in the forum, so it's nothing really new to anybody. 15:06.100 --> 15:07.860 Eventually, we'll redesign the whole thing. 15:07.940 --> 15:11.820 We'll get making an XML feed, an RSS feed for the whole thing or something. 15:11.820 --> 15:14.260 But, yeah, that's way down on the to-do list right now. 15:14.460 --> 15:15.360 We have a to-do list? 15:16.380 --> 15:18.900 Well, I have, like, a to-do book. 15:20.440 --> 15:21.460 I remember those. 15:22.200 --> 15:23.160 I have one now. 15:23.840 --> 15:27.940 But anyway, our next email is from Jeff. 15:27.940 --> 15:32.080 Hi, Stank, Dizzy, and all the DDP crew. 15:32.720 --> 15:34.940 I'm a long-time listener and a huge fan of the show. 15:35.060 --> 15:39.600 I think that all of you do a great job, so fuck the haters. 15:40.360 --> 15:43.460 Now that I've just said that, I want to hack for a career. 15:43.660 --> 15:47.220 I love security and exploits in just about every aspect of hacking. 15:47.220 --> 15:52.220 I find every show enjoyable and entertaining. 15:53.260 --> 15:57.140 And I believe that I do have what Stank calls the hacker mindset. 15:57.740 --> 16:00.940 My problem is that I don't know how to turn this into a career. 16:01.140 --> 16:03.700 And being 25, I really need to get moving in some direction, 16:03.840 --> 16:05.920 whether it be coding, network security, et cetera. 16:06.340 --> 16:07.840 I have no hacking friends. 16:08.500 --> 16:10.500 Most of them barely know how to burn a CD, 16:10.680 --> 16:12.760 and let's forget about teaching them how to use a BitTorrent. 16:13.080 --> 16:13.600 No offense. 16:13.780 --> 16:14.760 You know who you are. 16:14.760 --> 16:17.240 So, I must turn to the DDP. 16:17.640 --> 16:19.880 Any help and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. 16:20.120 --> 16:22.240 Thanks, much love, and keep up the fabulous work. 16:22.620 --> 16:23.020 Jeff. 16:24.340 --> 16:26.720 Have we ever been called fabulous before? 16:28.300 --> 16:31.420 Actually, I've never seen the word enjoyful before. 16:33.800 --> 16:34.200 Enjoyful. 16:34.540 --> 16:36.560 Not enjoyable, but enjoyful. 16:37.480 --> 16:39.380 Well, I didn't actually catch that up. 16:40.000 --> 16:42.660 You know, we've been called everything at some point in time, so. 16:43.700 --> 16:44.540 We're fabulous. 16:45.660 --> 16:46.900 Well, I'll take fabulous. 16:47.720 --> 16:48.080 Yes. 16:49.420 --> 16:49.700 Fabulous. 16:50.580 --> 16:52.460 Yeah, you didn't have to emphasize it like that. 16:53.700 --> 16:54.060 Fabulous. 16:54.460 --> 16:54.700 Fabulous. 16:54.940 --> 16:58.260 I used to have a great, you know, lisp to it. 16:58.320 --> 17:00.740 I used to be able to really freak people out back when I was in high school. 17:01.040 --> 17:04.540 But, ah, the skill sets that we used to have that are no longer needed. 17:06.260 --> 17:07.240 No longer needed? 17:07.320 --> 17:08.080 What are you talking about? 17:08.580 --> 17:10.560 Well, now it's a sexual harassment lawsuit. 17:11.480 --> 17:12.140 Oh, yeah, true. 17:13.020 --> 17:14.120 It'll come in handy on a resume. 17:15.060 --> 17:15.260 Yeah. 17:15.580 --> 17:27.020 Well, we actually did an episode of the show to talk about this email as far as moving in the security to become a security professional, so to speak. 17:27.800 --> 17:31.420 And just the only thing that I, and I get asked this actually at conventions a lot. 17:31.420 --> 17:41.460 I've had people come up to me after presentations and stuff and just generally say, hey, you know, I've heard you talk about security professionals on the show and how I have some issues with some of them and stuff. 17:41.460 --> 17:44.620 And, you know, there's nothing wrong. 17:44.620 --> 17:48.840 And I know I have a lot of friends and hacking friends who are security professionals who are still hackers. 17:49.000 --> 17:50.220 Just don't sell out when you go. 17:50.640 --> 17:57.820 But the only thing that I like to always remind people that they may not realize is that being a security professional is not being a hacker for money. 17:57.980 --> 17:59.140 You're not getting paid to hack. 17:59.140 --> 18:05.580 And that's the biggest misconception I see from hackers thinking they want to go out and become security professionals for a living. 18:05.580 --> 18:11.540 If you think that you're going to go get paid to hack, very rarely. 18:11.680 --> 18:15.640 There are a couple jobs that will pay you to do penetration testing and things like that. 18:16.000 --> 18:17.460 There are even fewer jobs still. 18:17.640 --> 18:26.380 Like my good friend asked us, you know, if I was ever going to do a job to get paid for hacking, it would be that sort of thing where it's researching vulnerabilities and stuff like that. 18:26.400 --> 18:27.880 But there's very few of those sites. 18:27.880 --> 18:33.680 You know, and that's why, like at DEF CON or Black Hat, you'll see people that are under their company name presenting. 18:33.920 --> 18:37.020 And that's usually the few jobs where they pay you to do actually hacking. 18:38.140 --> 18:47.960 You know, defining hacking, of course, is taking things apart, breaking them down, looking for vulnerabilities, writing code, writing script, figuring out weaknesses and vulnerabilities, that aspect of hacking. 18:48.520 --> 18:51.400 So there are very, very few and far between. 18:51.400 --> 18:53.940 Like that old cliche about, you know, athletes. 18:53.940 --> 19:04.020 You know, one out of all of the kids that go to college or, excuse me, young people, man, I'm getting old, that go to college, only one or two of them will ever make the pros. 19:04.200 --> 19:05.020 You know, that old cliche. 19:05.600 --> 19:06.920 It's the same thing with this. 19:07.000 --> 19:12.260 I mean, there's a lot of hackers out there, and there's certainly not enough jobs hacking, so to speak. 19:12.700 --> 19:17.660 Now, there's plenty of security jobs, security professional jobs, but know that what you're getting yourself into with that, 19:17.660 --> 19:24.160 you're getting yourself into rolling out patches on mass scales to all the computers in a company. 19:24.460 --> 19:26.100 That's a security professional job. 19:26.420 --> 19:33.660 So if you're okay with that kind of mass maintenance and what I would call boring work, you know, system administrator type stuff that's not really hacking, 19:33.880 --> 19:42.700 it's rolling out patches, checking for vulnerabilities, scanning your networks, and finding, oh, no, there's somebody who's running this server over on the other side of the company. 19:42.700 --> 19:48.220 I have to roll out a patch to them, or I have to call them and tell them to upgrade the newest version of whatever. 19:49.160 --> 19:53.160 That's going to be a lot of your security stuff, writing and enforcing policies. 19:53.240 --> 19:57.520 You're going to have to sit down and write up documentation that says, official password policy. 19:57.600 --> 20:04.380 You must choose number case and lower case letters, and it must contain a number, and you're going to have to write that sort of stuff up and enforce it. 20:05.540 --> 20:10.940 There's a lot of bureaucratic and stuff that goes along like that, so just know what you're in for. 20:10.940 --> 20:14.640 I mean, if you're still interested in it, yeah, then there's plenty of stuff out there. 20:14.720 --> 20:20.160 Go get just your computer degree and do some security research and get some stuff like that on your resume 20:20.160 --> 20:24.160 and try to get you an entry-level job somewhere and go forward with it. 20:25.280 --> 20:33.060 And, like, getting back to what Sang was saying about, you know, when you start scanning out all this stuff and mass rolling out patches, 20:33.860 --> 20:39.940 I mean, yes, that's about, like, a good 90% of the job, but at the same time, it's what we refer to as firefighting. 20:40.940 --> 20:45.940 You're either sitting around with your thumbs up your ass or you're running around with a chicken with their head cut off. 20:46.640 --> 20:52.720 Like, for example, like, there was a – when Code Red – was it Code Red or was it Sasser? 20:53.720 --> 20:54.620 I forget what it was. 20:54.620 --> 21:00.440 I don't think we really hit Code Red, but I think the – one of our developers – 21:00.440 --> 21:10.100 back when I was a Wii PFY working at my job, and we actually got – I think it was Sasser because it was – 21:10.100 --> 21:12.720 Sasser was, like, you know, multi-pronged. 21:12.720 --> 21:16.980 And I believe one of our developers, who was stupidly running IIS on his machine, 21:17.100 --> 21:24.500 despite our insistence that he did not do that, was not patching it and got hit with the web version of it, 21:24.560 --> 21:27.340 and then the web version propagated across all of our network shares. 21:27.500 --> 21:28.620 Oh, boy, that wasn't fun. 21:28.620 --> 21:37.340 And actually, we did pretty good because we were actually up on – because we were actually aware of patches, 21:37.540 --> 21:40.460 and we realized all this crap, and I saw this patch saying, 21:40.900 --> 21:45.280 oh, a remote code execution via the buffer overflow in one of the network services. 21:46.040 --> 21:47.140 This isn't good. 21:47.140 --> 21:51.960 And I said, yeah, we need to roll out this patch like yesterday. 21:52.560 --> 21:58.100 So by the time it hit, we are actually mostly patched because this was actually before mass rollouts, 21:58.140 --> 22:00.320 and you actually had to walk across to every machine and hit it. 22:02.020 --> 22:06.700 So Sasser basically came in and said, I'm inside your network, and I'm rooting your noobs. 22:07.100 --> 22:07.960 Yes, exactly. 22:08.680 --> 22:09.680 Is that exactly how it went? 22:09.920 --> 22:10.280 Exactly. 22:10.460 --> 22:12.060 I mean, that's what it says. 22:12.140 --> 22:15.020 We got an email from the Sasser buyer that said, I'm in your network. 22:15.020 --> 22:16.280 I'm rooting your noobs. 22:16.280 --> 22:17.300 Oh, my God. 22:21.780 --> 22:24.320 Yep, that's about all I have to say about that. 22:24.640 --> 22:31.960 Well, actually, our next email is – I guess the Hearst email is kind of elated because, I mean, 22:32.000 --> 22:36.320 we're not trying to knock Jeff here because, you know, lots of people quickly type out emails, 22:36.460 --> 22:38.480 and they don't actually think about what they're typing about. 22:39.140 --> 22:43.060 But, you know, there were some typos, 22:43.060 --> 22:46.380 and there were some problems actually understanding the concepts behind it. 22:46.500 --> 22:49.680 But our next email actually addresses some of that. 22:49.820 --> 22:52.240 And this is from – he gives his full name here. 22:52.340 --> 22:54.960 I mean, he actually signs it sincerely, so-and-so. 22:55.060 --> 22:58.300 Well, we're just going to give his – no, we're just going to give his first name, of course, on the air. 22:58.560 --> 22:58.860 But, you know. 22:58.860 --> 22:58.980 All right. 22:59.060 --> 23:00.640 I never know how to handle these. 23:00.640 --> 23:01.980 So our next email is from Frank. 23:03.440 --> 23:05.700 And he actually starts off with, Dear BinRev homies, 23:05.700 --> 23:11.960 I love the episode on risk assessment since it is something that is usually not discussed in the scene. 23:12.080 --> 23:15.100 Most hackers think of security in firewalls, honeypots, and ports. 23:15.960 --> 23:22.180 In fact, most people that have security-related – IT security-related jobs don't think of security much past that either. 23:22.880 --> 23:27.620 The bean counters and managers of the business world don't care that Linux is fundamentally more secure than Windows. 23:28.160 --> 23:30.980 That statement alone is more than enough to lose people in a meeting. 23:31.680 --> 23:37.460 Presenting assessments, calculation, and numbers is the way to make a business case for security. 23:38.040 --> 23:41.120 It's a way to translate what you know into what they know. 23:42.420 --> 23:47.380 The techniques discussed don't always have to be applied into multi-state NOCs. 23:47.440 --> 23:50.260 On a smaller scale, they're a good way to make a business case for smaller items, 23:50.320 --> 23:52.360 such as extra backup devices or an extra firewall. 23:52.800 --> 23:58.860 All too often, I see in forums and in IRC chats about the younger hackers – and some older ones, too – 23:58.860 --> 24:01.540 talking about how they can't find work using their hacking skills. 24:02.140 --> 24:07.740 I believe that many of them are lacking in business skills to work in a professional environment. 24:08.220 --> 24:09.800 Take penetration testing, for example. 24:10.480 --> 24:16.000 There are many talented people lurking in the mid-ref forums, many of whom would love to do penetration testing for a living. 24:16.720 --> 24:17.820 Where have I heard this before? 24:18.440 --> 24:20.460 Yeah, this is a good segue into the next scene. 24:20.520 --> 24:21.020 That was a good one. 24:21.060 --> 24:21.460 Okay, go ahead. 24:21.460 --> 24:28.000 While many have the technical skills to penetrate networks and find the holes, this is only half the job. 24:28.320 --> 24:31.200 The other half is presenting the information to the company that you've assessed, 24:31.520 --> 24:35.000 where their security holes are, and what the risk assessment of these holes are. 24:36.600 --> 24:41.500 Making the business case is the skill set that many hackers are missing and they're completely unaware of 24:41.500 --> 24:45.200 when they think about making a profession their hobby – making a profession of their hobby. 24:45.200 --> 24:49.080 I've used the term business case quite a few times in this email. 24:49.260 --> 24:52.840 All too often, people with technical skills could care less about the business side of security 24:52.840 --> 24:55.820 while it is the business side that gets you a paycheck. 24:56.380 --> 24:59.860 Learn what to fight for the money that you need to get your job. 25:00.380 --> 25:03.240 Learn how to build a business case in existence and in the professional world. 25:03.400 --> 25:05.500 It is how you sell your services and your skills. 25:06.860 --> 25:08.020 Sincerely, Frank. 25:09.140 --> 25:09.860 Frankie boy. 25:10.140 --> 25:10.760 Thank you, Frankie. 25:10.880 --> 25:13.020 Actually, I did not know that was coming up. 25:13.020 --> 25:14.600 Or I should say, I forgot that was coming up. 25:14.700 --> 25:15.880 That was in the email for this week. 25:16.000 --> 25:19.000 But yeah, I kind of re-emphasized a lot of the things I said. 25:19.460 --> 25:23.340 Specifically, to re-re-emphasize, you're going to be doing a lot of documentation, 25:23.500 --> 25:25.320 filling out a lot of fucking TPS reports. 25:26.860 --> 25:28.340 Like someone knows that. 25:29.100 --> 25:32.940 I actually – for the longest time, I actually had no clue – I mean, up until today, 25:33.000 --> 25:36.180 I had no clue what exactly a TPS report was. 25:37.040 --> 25:37.360 What? 25:37.920 --> 25:39.400 I've never had to do a TPS report. 25:39.500 --> 25:40.760 I've always been a very small developer. 25:40.760 --> 25:43.900 I've never actually worked on these massive developing houses. 25:44.900 --> 25:51.080 Yeah, well, we have to fill out full-on technical specifications that are – in some cases, 25:51.080 --> 25:53.180 I've seen some of them that were 100-plus pages. 25:55.180 --> 25:59.380 But yeah, the one I was – see, Rack just referring to the fact that I was kind of whining 25:59.380 --> 26:02.060 or complaining a little bit earlier about having to do one of those today. 26:02.160 --> 26:04.220 I've been documenting all day, filling out TPS reports. 26:04.400 --> 26:05.520 Did you get the new cover sheet? 26:06.600 --> 26:08.020 The new TPS cover sheet? 26:08.160 --> 26:08.540 Yeah. 26:08.540 --> 26:09.460 Can you have a memo about that? 26:09.460 --> 26:09.980 I'll go ahead and send that again. 26:10.980 --> 26:14.120 Yeah, I'll go ahead and resend you that memo if you could use that in the future. 26:14.600 --> 26:14.920 Yeah. 26:16.580 --> 26:19.560 So yeah, I had about, I don't know, 15 pages or so. 26:20.660 --> 26:24.680 So you're going to be doing a lot of documenting, a lot of documentation, a lot of – 26:24.680 --> 26:29.740 now, and that's – to go a step further, a lot of the professional tools like Core Impact 26:29.740 --> 26:34.460 and some of the high-end expensive tools, which, of course, are nothing more than glorified 26:34.460 --> 26:34.940 Metasploit. 26:35.040 --> 26:40.960 But anyway, these higher-end tools actually have add-ons or plug-ins or just built-in support 26:40.960 --> 26:43.720 to make nice reports automatically generate them for you. 26:43.780 --> 26:45.060 So that's helpful as well. 26:45.360 --> 26:47.420 But yeah, I think – I don't know. 26:47.500 --> 26:51.100 I think Frank pretty – did a pretty good job of explaining most of it there. 26:51.100 --> 26:52.960 So I don't know that there's really much more for me to add. 26:54.120 --> 26:58.320 Frank did a great email, and he definitely did hit the nail on the head when he said 26:58.320 --> 27:01.440 a lot of hackers lack the skills to survive in the business world. 27:02.760 --> 27:03.440 Yeah, that's true. 27:03.700 --> 27:03.900 Yeah. 27:04.060 --> 27:08.820 I mean, personally, I think one of the reasons that everyone at my place of business, they 27:08.820 --> 27:15.440 always – I used to be the IT guy, and then I changed my job to be a developer, which 27:15.440 --> 27:18.920 I would not – well, I would be in IT, but I wouldn't be like a system mini type. 27:18.920 --> 27:24.900 And our help desk got absorbed by the giant conglomerate help desk upstairs because, you 27:24.900 --> 27:26.180 know, it would save money and stuff. 27:26.900 --> 27:32.260 And people still prefer me as opposed to the help desk monkeys that come down from upstairs 27:32.260 --> 27:33.980 because, A, they really don't know what they're doing. 27:34.080 --> 27:40.740 But anyway, I think one of the reasons they prefer me is that I can actually explain the 27:40.740 --> 27:46.380 problems that they have in easy-to-understand terms that, you know, they actually grasp. 27:46.380 --> 27:51.000 And I think that that's – if you can really master that skill, you can really write your 27:51.000 --> 27:51.400 own ticket. 27:51.700 --> 27:58.980 I mean, translating, you know, very abstract computer hardcore subjects to, you know, manager 27:58.980 --> 28:03.980 speak, for lack of a better term, is a really – it's something that's very sought after. 28:03.980 --> 28:08.500 Well, and not even – not even necessarily – not even only managers. 28:08.700 --> 28:10.620 Not even – that made no fucking sense. 28:10.680 --> 28:11.380 Let me just rewind. 28:12.380 --> 28:16.600 Not only managers, but being able to speak to just general users. 28:17.260 --> 28:19.480 I mean, you've got to keep in mind that not everybody's technical. 28:19.740 --> 28:22.120 And that's – you know, that's not a bad thing. 28:22.200 --> 28:24.400 Not everybody wants to be a programmer, you know. 28:24.500 --> 28:29.300 People that are in accounting or people that are in other departments and whatever, they 28:29.300 --> 28:31.320 just don't – they don't need to be. 28:31.440 --> 28:32.260 Maybe they don't want to be. 28:32.300 --> 28:32.960 It doesn't interest them. 28:32.980 --> 28:34.340 That's why they're not IT professionals. 28:34.500 --> 28:36.880 But they do need to understand certain things. 28:36.920 --> 28:40.060 And you've got to be able to patiently explain things. 28:40.100 --> 28:43.140 And I think that comes a little bit with age, I guess, and time and experience. 28:44.240 --> 28:45.300 A lot of the stuff in the business sense. 28:45.300 --> 28:45.880 Patience is always a virtue. 28:46.720 --> 28:47.680 It certainly is. 28:48.540 --> 28:52.740 You can't start flipping out on users when they ask you, why can't I display a 50,000 record 28:52.740 --> 28:56.740 data – a 50,000 record data set on my screen in Access? 28:58.700 --> 28:59.060 Yeah. 28:59.560 --> 29:00.360 Something like that. 29:00.480 --> 29:02.240 You just smile and nod and say – 29:02.240 --> 29:04.700 Speaking of Access, that's going to come up later on in the show, by the way. 29:04.780 --> 29:05.100 But okay. 29:05.740 --> 29:06.080 Anyway. 29:06.520 --> 29:07.500 I don't want to know. 29:08.320 --> 29:08.960 No, yes. 29:09.140 --> 29:10.100 It's good stuff. 29:10.340 --> 29:10.560 Yeah. 29:11.840 --> 29:12.540 Well, when I say good stuff – 29:12.540 --> 29:16.620 You were the expert on this whole virtualization thing, and you did this episode. 29:16.740 --> 29:18.120 Do you want to read the next email? 29:20.080 --> 29:20.780 I'll read it. 29:20.780 --> 29:22.640 I don't know how much of an expert I am. 29:22.980 --> 29:23.820 Actually, it was not there. 29:23.900 --> 29:26.380 I really noticed most of it, and I have limited experience. 29:26.460 --> 29:28.060 But sure, I'll read it, and we'll see what we can do here. 29:29.520 --> 29:30.320 Hey, gents. 29:30.700 --> 29:34.020 One virtualization software package you failed to mention in Episode 1. 29:34.100 --> 29:34.840 There's no name on this. 29:34.900 --> 29:35.820 Why is there no name on this? 29:36.560 --> 29:38.200 I don't think you can actually find a name. 29:38.380 --> 29:39.980 But go ahead and check it out, and I'll just double-check. 29:40.000 --> 29:40.120 All right. 29:40.120 --> 29:43.180 So I'm going to call him Joe Bob. 29:43.280 --> 29:44.120 Joe Bob says, 29:44.120 --> 29:49.560 One virtualization software package you failed to mention in Episode 169 is XEN. 29:49.560 --> 29:51.000 That's X-E-N. 29:51.000 --> 29:56.840 It's an open-source virtualization solution that has better performance than VMware with some caveats. 29:57.360 --> 29:59.840 First, we should probably clarify some terminology. 29:59.840 --> 30:08.420 Virtualization is when you create virtual hardware in order to allow for, quote, multiplexing, unquote, on physical hardware. 30:08.640 --> 30:14.040 The idea here is to impose as little overhead as possible, which is one of the things I brought up in the episode. 30:14.040 --> 30:17.020 So that's the ultimate goal, of course. 30:17.180 --> 30:19.980 But generally, historically, that's been the big hurdle. 30:21.260 --> 30:24.600 So this is easier if the CPUs have hardware support for it. 30:24.680 --> 30:28.880 PowerPC, Core Duo, Core2 Duo, some of the newer AMD CPUs, et cetera. 30:29.020 --> 30:32.140 Examples, Xen, VMware, and Mac on Linux. 30:33.140 --> 30:37.380 Emulation is when you pretend to be something you're not, down to the processor level. 30:37.380 --> 30:42.920 Examples of this are PearPC, QEMU, and Box, B-O-C-H-S. 30:43.260 --> 30:43.900 Is that Box? 30:44.040 --> 30:44.280 Box. 30:44.380 --> 30:45.700 I've never heard of Box, I have to admit. 30:46.400 --> 30:46.800 Oh, wait a minute. 30:46.880 --> 30:47.560 Yeah, I know Box. 30:47.960 --> 30:48.400 Yeah, okay. 30:48.460 --> 30:48.860 No Box. 30:48.960 --> 30:49.800 I've never actually heard of it. 30:50.040 --> 30:51.660 I think I've seen that mentioned in the forums. 30:52.100 --> 30:54.380 Again, I'm not as familiar with this. 30:54.500 --> 30:57.020 It's not Terry who's probably tried all of those and then some. 30:58.260 --> 30:59.220 So this is an important distinction. 30:59.220 --> 31:02.680 What the StankDog here is trying to do is he's trying to emulate a virtualization expert. 31:03.820 --> 31:04.960 Exactly, exactly. 31:05.500 --> 31:08.520 This is an important distinction and helps reduce confusion. 31:08.780 --> 31:11.720 So virtualization versus emulation. 31:11.980 --> 31:13.720 So good point, clarification there. 31:14.300 --> 31:20.360 Okay, second, you can stop acting like this is a new thing any time now, smiley face. 31:20.800 --> 31:23.600 Yeah, I don't think we ever insinuated that it's a new thing now. 31:23.600 --> 31:24.320 Don't get me wrong. 31:24.460 --> 31:28.560 But it's never been done on our show before, so maybe it did come across that way. 31:28.560 --> 31:30.620 But no, no, no, no, certainly not. 31:31.040 --> 31:35.900 It's been available on big iron servers, particularly IBM Power Architecture servers, for like 20 years. 31:36.220 --> 31:37.840 It's only new in the PC space. 31:37.940 --> 31:41.480 Yeah, well, you know, how many of our listeners actually have the heavy metal machines? 31:41.700 --> 31:43.000 But point taken. 31:43.520 --> 31:45.900 Anyway, now on to what I'm doing with it. 31:46.180 --> 31:48.920 On the business side, one server consolidation. 31:49.180 --> 31:54.860 Right now we've got six racks of Sun machines, most of them running four to eight CPUs at about 500 megahertz. 31:54.860 --> 32:03.340 And huge disk arrays running way too many SCSI drives, none larger than 36 gigabytes, most of them about nine. 32:04.140 --> 32:11.520 These are supported by large banks of UPSs and a huge HVAC unit, which, for those who don't know, is heating, ventilation, and air conditioning. 32:12.240 --> 32:19.340 We're going to replace all of these with one bank of multi-processor core two duo servers using larger capacity SATA drives. 32:19.340 --> 32:24.640 The power savings on just the servers will be over $300 a month. 32:24.780 --> 32:29.200 This doesn't include the cooling savings, which can be two to three times the electricity savings. 32:29.300 --> 32:30.520 Wow, I didn't realize that. 32:30.740 --> 32:31.720 That's a nice little bonus. 32:31.720 --> 32:32.340 That's a good point. 32:33.100 --> 32:34.120 Wow, I didn't even think about that. 32:34.120 --> 32:35.880 I wonder what he's going to do with all those sun servers. 32:36.060 --> 32:37.920 I mean, if he's looking to get rid of them, you know. 32:38.020 --> 32:38.780 Send them our way. 32:38.880 --> 32:39.200 That's right. 32:39.300 --> 32:40.340 Hey, I'm all over it. 32:40.340 --> 32:44.720 Plus, with Solaris 10 being free, you know, that would be a nice little combination. 32:46.280 --> 32:51.260 Two, still under the business side of things, the second thing is compartmentalization. 32:51.980 --> 32:53.140 Wow, that's a good Scrabble word. 32:53.600 --> 33:00.200 As you touched on in episode 169, you can snapshot these machines at periods in time. 33:00.340 --> 33:03.240 You can also set up a bunch of servers which are logically separate. 33:03.800 --> 33:06.200 You can move them from physical box to physical box. 33:06.300 --> 33:10.000 You can clone one server, change its IP, and test upgrades changes to it. 33:10.000 --> 33:14.420 If a box gets hacked, you can snapshot it for forensics, then go back to a backup. 33:14.780 --> 33:17.880 Before it was hacked, patch the broken service, then spin it up again. 33:18.800 --> 33:24.020 Yep, again, we kind of – actually, I don't know that we clarified that is a good idea of taking a snapshot for forensic purposes. 33:24.140 --> 33:25.020 I don't think we mentioned that. 33:25.060 --> 33:25.880 That's another good idea. 33:27.520 --> 33:35.220 And on the hacker side, as mentioned in episode 169, I think all these – you can use it to sniff traffic between machines. 33:35.220 --> 33:43.980 This is easier than dropping a hub in line between two machines and sniffing the traffic between them because you can do it completely inside one physical machine. 33:44.760 --> 33:49.440 So, yeah, a lot of those things we touched on, and you added a lot of new ideas in there, too, that we hadn't. 33:49.500 --> 33:52.040 So we always welcome email like that, certainly. 33:52.240 --> 33:53.920 So thank you – what did I call him? 33:53.960 --> 33:54.340 Joe Bob? 33:54.460 --> 33:54.920 Joe Bob. 33:54.980 --> 33:55.860 Joe Bob's what we're going on. 33:55.920 --> 33:56.920 Unless you found a different one. 33:56.920 --> 33:59.440 He didn't sign his name, but – 33:59.440 --> 34:01.560 Well, we'll just – let's go with Joe Bob. 34:01.600 --> 34:02.020 It doesn't matter. 34:02.180 --> 34:03.120 Joe Bob, you know who you are. 34:03.200 --> 34:03.800 Thanks for the email. 34:05.580 --> 34:07.020 And actually, let me see. 34:07.120 --> 34:13.760 Now, I'm going to wing this off the cuff here, Ratchet, if I may, because I think there was one other email that I wanted – yeah. 34:13.820 --> 34:14.740 Can I do one more email? 34:14.780 --> 34:15.300 Do we have time? 34:15.620 --> 34:16.440 I'll make it quick. 34:16.460 --> 34:16.480 Yeah, sure. 34:16.500 --> 34:16.720 Go ahead. 34:16.720 --> 34:17.760 All right. 34:17.800 --> 34:20.420 This email just came in recently. 34:20.800 --> 34:23.480 It's from Thunderstruck. 34:24.880 --> 34:31.840 Thunderstruck says, guys, I'm not the type to use labels, and I hate the term hacking personally, quote, unquote, hacking personally. 34:31.840 --> 34:34.460 But really, it should be defined correctly. 34:35.400 --> 34:55.980 Hacking most certainly is not, quote, thinking outside the box, end quote, or simply, quote, exploiting systems vulnerabilities, end quote, as you guys have defined it, nor is it the act of running a script, which you did not write, to attack the vulnerability that you did not find on a system located with a ping sweeper port scanner that you downloaded off of the web. 34:56.260 --> 35:00.940 This type of person is not a hacker at all, but rather what we call in our community a script kitty. 35:00.940 --> 35:04.100 Someone who takes from the community but does not give. 35:04.580 --> 35:10.540 The media should not portray this type of individual as a hacker, but rather what he or she is, a criminal. 35:11.640 --> 35:18.320 Hacking is the act of modifying, altering, or exploiting a technology to perform outside the scope of its original intended use. 35:18.620 --> 35:19.640 It's really quite simple. 35:19.640 --> 35:29.880 In the context of your show, I may exploit the server messaging block, SMB protocol, on an IIS server in order to allow me to administer access to the server using a Perl script I wrote. 35:30.240 --> 35:34.860 But the Perl script is not the hack, but rather the exploitation of the vulnerable protocol on the server. 35:35.460 --> 35:41.560 You see, I'm extending the technology of the IIS server beyond its intended scope by convincing the server to grant me access. 35:41.560 --> 35:50.140 Likewise, the kernel on my Linux system was not designed to handle my Wi-Fi network interface, so I hack the kernel source code to enable support for the device. 35:50.600 --> 36:00.080 I flip or hack the boot page on my TiVo in order to trick the machine into not loading a handicap bootstrap, which prevents me from running homemade software of its hardware. 36:00.080 --> 36:11.140 I solder a new basic input-output system, or BIOS, onto my Xbox, which allows me to bypass the crippled BIOS so I can play emulators, Xbox, Media Center, and other homemade software on my Xbox. 36:12.080 --> 36:20.060 Essentially, one can hack anything, as long as it retains a technical connotation and as long as it extends or exploits the intended scope of something. 36:20.180 --> 36:24.260 This dates all the way back to the homebrew computer club, and it applies in the same manner today. 36:24.260 --> 36:28.260 So, enough of all this good cop, bad cop, white hat, black hat, hacker definitions. 36:28.980 --> 36:40.500 Hacking is far broader than just network hacking, and I wish other types of hacking, such as hardware and consumer electronics hacking, got paid more attention to since, in my opinion, they're far more interesting than network hacking. 36:41.160 --> 36:47.720 Anyhow, great show. It's a noble effort, and if I have some free times, perhaps I will volunteer to be a mentor at some point in the future. 36:49.160 --> 36:52.920 Thunderstruck. So, thank you very much, Thunderstruck, for that email. 36:52.920 --> 37:00.360 However, let me just back up, because, and I think even one of the earlier emails referred to it, and actually, let me go back and look at that earlier email, 37:00.460 --> 37:07.260 because I was very careful to word that. I don't know which episode you may have heard. 37:07.340 --> 37:11.700 I mean, I've said before I do have a pretty liberal definition of what hacking is and is not. 37:11.700 --> 37:20.120 But we did do an episode recently where I tried to go into a good clarification and kind of make a final opinion, I guess it is, 37:20.160 --> 37:25.000 because no one can ever define a word like hacking because it's so variable and so ever-changing. 37:25.020 --> 37:25.800 I think Webster's did. 37:26.240 --> 37:33.000 Well, I'm sure they tried, but we did, I know I did an episode, and I went out of my way to try not to say that it is this or it is that, 37:33.000 --> 37:37.920 and I certainly didn't say, and I'm trying to look, I think it was this, one of these earlier emails, let me see. 37:39.380 --> 37:43.320 I do, okay, so this was from Jeff earlier email who said, 37:43.720 --> 37:46.940 I believe that I have what Stank calls the hacker mindset. 37:47.600 --> 37:52.760 And what it sounds like you're describing there is what I described as the hacker mindset, 37:52.920 --> 37:54.700 and I do stick by that definition. 37:55.360 --> 38:01.440 Absolutely, to be a hacker, okay, and I will, I'll stick to this, I'll go down swinging with this, 38:01.480 --> 38:07.360 is you can't be a hacker if you do not have that mindset of curiosity and tinkering with things 38:07.360 --> 38:11.860 and taking them apart and pushing things beyond their boundaries, seeing what they can and can't do. 38:11.940 --> 38:13.080 Don't accept no for an answer. 38:13.500 --> 38:15.880 Pushing things where they weren't intended to go. 38:16.280 --> 38:23.880 That is absolutely the foundation, the hacker mind, the mindset upon which one can become a hacker. 38:23.880 --> 38:31.020 If you don't have that, I'm sorry, I do not see anyone without that mindset ever being a hacker. 38:31.560 --> 38:35.120 So I've never said that that single alone thing makes you a hacker. 38:35.580 --> 38:40.440 What I've said is that that's the building blocks that can make you and take you into being a hacker. 38:40.820 --> 38:42.340 I do think you can teach security. 38:43.380 --> 38:45.560 You can teach hacking to a limited extent. 38:45.680 --> 38:49.340 You can teach hacking techniques, you know, and absolutely, I don't even, 38:49.900 --> 38:53.760 the definition he made of skitties and hackers, I don't disagree with any of it. 38:53.760 --> 38:58.300 I think that's exactly what we've said, but I do believe that there is a fundamental building block 38:58.300 --> 39:02.280 of what makes, what can make a hacker. 39:02.380 --> 39:03.480 Let's say a good hacker. 39:04.320 --> 39:07.860 If you can't think outside of the box, you can't think outside of the lines 39:07.860 --> 39:11.940 and push beyond what normally people, what normal people would stop, 39:12.160 --> 39:14.420 then you don't have the building blocks to become a hacker. 39:14.820 --> 39:16.760 And that's all I've ever really said along those lines. 39:16.760 --> 39:19.520 So I don't know if maybe you want to go back and listen to that particular, 39:19.600 --> 39:21.040 I don't even know which episode that was. 39:21.460 --> 39:26.860 Or maybe he's listening to an older episode that maybe wasn't as in-depth as that one we did fairly recently. 39:27.760 --> 39:31.360 Well, I think back about, I don't even remember when it was, 39:32.400 --> 39:35.800 back a while back, one of my early episodes during season two, 39:35.900 --> 39:38.980 we had like, you know, how not to be a skiddy or something like that. 39:39.000 --> 39:39.740 Yeah, okay, yep. 39:39.780 --> 39:40.560 I remember that one. 39:40.560 --> 39:43.820 And, yeah, we covered a lot of the basic stuff, 39:43.960 --> 39:46.620 but that really doesn't actually talk about how to be a hacker. 39:46.740 --> 39:49.620 It's more of how to, like, not to fall into common pitfalls certain people, 39:50.240 --> 39:52.160 you know, getting snared in. 39:52.600 --> 39:52.960 Right. 39:53.740 --> 39:54.480 And you know what? 39:54.500 --> 39:58.580 We started episode one of this show four years ago with the what is a hacker, 39:58.800 --> 40:00.280 a little bit of a what is a hacker thing. 40:00.360 --> 40:02.160 So it's never going to be defined. 40:02.300 --> 40:03.700 It's constantly changing. 40:03.700 --> 40:05.440 You're shooting at a moving target anyway. 40:06.780 --> 40:09.220 And, you know, it's kind of like, yeah, I mean, 40:09.220 --> 40:11.600 I think we've said all that needs to be said about it, 40:11.600 --> 40:13.760 and everybody's going to have different opinions and different definitions, 40:14.020 --> 40:15.060 and that's okay. 40:15.180 --> 40:15.600 It really is. 40:15.700 --> 40:17.080 Actually, it's okay that people have that. 40:17.140 --> 40:18.620 That's what hackers do. 40:18.720 --> 40:21.540 If you all agreed on a definition, then none of us have the mind of a hacker. 40:22.280 --> 40:24.120 How ironic is that? 40:26.160 --> 40:30.620 So, anyway, I think that's all the email for at least that I had. 40:30.680 --> 40:31.320 Did you have anything? 40:32.500 --> 40:35.320 I actually don't remember actually seeing that email that you read, 40:35.440 --> 40:38.140 so I'm going to have to, like, look at it back on all my stuff and see what I missed. 40:38.140 --> 40:42.160 Because, I don't, like, this spam problem is getting out of freaking control. 40:42.740 --> 40:46.960 Yeah, well, it's like spam assassin picks up quite a bit, 40:47.020 --> 40:50.480 but then you also have to have good filters on your client because some of it slips through. 40:50.860 --> 40:52.520 And, yeah, it's a mess. 40:53.080 --> 40:53.660 It's a mess. 40:53.780 --> 40:57.060 Well, it's like, I mean, ever since, what is it, like September for me, 40:57.720 --> 41:01.620 like, and apparently, like, these pump and tum stock scams have been, like, going crazy. 41:01.720 --> 41:04.140 And I guess someone actually looked some research into it, 41:04.140 --> 41:06.260 and someone wrote about it online. 41:06.360 --> 41:12.580 Apparently, it's like, you know, these, like, five major botnets all started doing all this all at once. 41:12.660 --> 41:14.280 Like, they were purchased by the same person. 41:14.940 --> 41:16.120 Same nefarious person. 41:16.280 --> 41:16.800 Dum, dum, dum. 41:17.500 --> 41:20.920 And that's what's causing all the, well, causing all the issues, 41:21.000 --> 41:22.620 which really freaks me out personally. 41:22.860 --> 41:25.580 But, let's not go in there. 41:25.660 --> 41:26.900 We covered that last week. 41:27.840 --> 41:28.540 Yeah, yeah. 41:28.680 --> 41:29.880 All right, well, I guess let's move on. 41:29.960 --> 41:31.560 How much, how are we on time here? 41:31.560 --> 41:33.300 We've got to probably pick it up a little bit, yes? 41:33.780 --> 41:35.480 Eh, we're about 45 minutes in or so. 41:35.720 --> 41:36.600 40 minutes, probably, I guess. 41:37.880 --> 41:40.000 Well, how about you tell me? 41:40.140 --> 41:40.660 You're driving. 41:41.320 --> 41:43.340 Oh, you want to do a personal show and tell next, 41:43.420 --> 41:45.620 and personal hacking stories and all that wonderful stuff? 41:45.720 --> 41:48.740 Or do you want to just segue right into the shotgun topics? 41:49.740 --> 41:52.060 Well, to me, they were going to be kind of one and the same. 41:52.060 --> 41:55.080 I guess I'll, I tell you what, you start if you've got any, 41:55.180 --> 41:58.820 and then I'll kind of segue in and then drive us into the main topic. 41:58.900 --> 41:59.320 How about that? 41:59.320 --> 42:02.460 Well, my big news, and I'm sure not theory is absolutely, you know, 42:02.500 --> 42:03.580 rejoicing over this news. 42:03.660 --> 42:06.740 I haven't told them yet, but I've dropped the sidekick. 42:06.860 --> 42:11.760 I'm now running a T-Mobile MDA or a, I think it's HTC Wizard, 42:12.600 --> 42:13.460 for those who don't know. 42:13.840 --> 42:14.820 It's a sweet little thing. 42:14.880 --> 42:16.300 I've only got a credit for a couple of days, 42:16.380 --> 42:19.460 and I'm still, you know, working out everything and figuring everything out. 42:19.460 --> 42:26.880 But I got all the BINREV email today at work on my lunch break without plugging into the work email address 42:26.880 --> 42:31.200 or work internet because I don't want them to sniff BINREV email and see where I'm going. 42:31.320 --> 42:34.520 And technically, you're not supposed to use other unapproved email accounts. 42:35.240 --> 42:38.980 So I had it plugged into my MDA, and I was using the T-Mobile dial-up. 42:40.520 --> 42:41.760 And it was pretty good. 42:41.840 --> 42:43.100 I was pulling out about 20K a second. 42:43.100 --> 42:46.440 I actually downloaded a BINREV radio show just to see how fast it was going. 42:46.560 --> 42:49.100 It was going about, it topped out, I think, at 20.9K. 42:49.800 --> 42:51.960 It was usually hovering around 19.5 to 20. 42:52.920 --> 42:53.700 How did you measure the speed? 42:53.700 --> 42:54.380 I was pleased. 42:54.800 --> 42:55.340 How did you measure the speed? 42:55.340 --> 42:58.880 I downloaded a BINREV episode, and I just see how fast it was going. 42:59.120 --> 43:01.200 Oh, you just, okay, so you just kind of did the math. 43:01.840 --> 43:02.060 Yeah. 43:02.220 --> 43:02.920 Yeah, gotcha. 43:04.100 --> 43:06.120 It was saying 20.0K a second. 43:06.220 --> 43:07.820 And I was like, okay, there's my average speed. 43:08.100 --> 43:08.780 Ah, there you go. 43:08.780 --> 43:09.400 I'm good like that. 43:09.600 --> 43:10.140 There you go. 43:10.140 --> 43:11.240 So, yes, it was pretty sweet. 43:11.240 --> 43:15.580 Plus, you know, riding home on the train this afternoon, I was checking out all my email. 43:16.220 --> 43:18.220 Is that Windows Mobile 5 powered? 43:18.580 --> 43:20.160 Yes, Windows Mobile 5. 43:20.460 --> 43:25.500 It's a 195 megahertz OMAP processor, which I'm not exactly sure who makes it. 43:25.600 --> 43:30.120 And it's made by a company called Q-Tech, which I believe is based in Taiwan. 43:30.540 --> 43:32.140 Yeah, they make good stuff, though. 43:32.980 --> 43:33.400 They do. 43:33.520 --> 43:35.040 They make some nice phones. 43:35.040 --> 43:41.140 I mean, the one complaint, I think, I always wanted to have like a cell phone roundup show 43:41.140 --> 43:45.760 and just, you know, get various people on here with all kinds of different phones and, you know, 43:45.820 --> 43:47.100 let them all duke it out. 43:47.640 --> 43:51.520 Yeah, we've done that, but they've been scattered amongst episodes as we all change here and there. 43:52.100 --> 43:52.400 Yeah. 43:52.400 --> 43:55.580 But, yeah, I dig the MDE. 43:56.000 --> 44:00.260 So far, I give it a thumbs up, but tentative. 44:00.560 --> 44:01.460 Well, yeah, exactly. 44:01.620 --> 44:06.140 I did it first also with the Trio, and then, of course, it kind of went downhill from there. 44:06.220 --> 44:10.380 And actually, since we're talking about it, I'm not real happy with the Trio again right now 44:10.380 --> 44:13.040 because it got better when I upgraded. 44:13.180 --> 44:14.600 They made a software upgrade. 44:14.600 --> 44:18.620 So I downloaded and installed all that and, of course, rebooted the phone, 44:18.760 --> 44:21.020 which is always funny to reboot Windows, even if it's on a phone. 44:22.780 --> 44:24.260 And it was working fine for a while. 44:24.340 --> 44:27.300 Now, all of a sudden, it will not connect to the global interweb automatically. 44:27.540 --> 44:30.100 It's almost like it's constantly in flight mode or something. 44:30.360 --> 44:33.760 But I've looked at all the configurations, and it's definitely set up right. 44:33.820 --> 44:36.360 It's just a flaming piece of shit is what it is. 44:37.340 --> 44:39.040 So I'm not happy about that. 44:39.040 --> 44:44.860 So my e-mail, I have to manually make a connection to the global phone interweb 44:44.860 --> 44:47.040 and then check my mail. 44:47.120 --> 44:49.040 So I'm not getting, like, the instant notification, 44:49.260 --> 44:51.480 which is one of the reasons I bought the phone in the first place. 44:52.100 --> 44:54.720 Oh, actually, I'll go toss this out here. 44:54.820 --> 44:58.480 For you and technically everyone else, there's a website out there, 44:58.480 --> 45:06.420 and it's called www.portport, the number 8 and the number 8, port88.org. 45:06.420 --> 45:11.920 And I don't know what the hell he's actually doing it on and how legit it is, 45:12.440 --> 45:18.340 but he's an avid poster in sort of the developer forums for this group of people 45:18.340 --> 45:21.280 set up a bunch of developer forums for all the HTC QTEC stuff. 45:21.820 --> 45:25.900 And he set up basically a free Exchange 2003 server. 45:26.180 --> 45:29.380 You'll get an account, and he'll use the direct push e-mail service, 45:30.200 --> 45:34.160 which essentially is what Microsoft clone of the BlackBerry system. 45:34.580 --> 45:35.740 It'll set it up for you. 45:35.740 --> 45:38.160 And I'm not sure exactly he can read your e-mail or whatever, 45:38.360 --> 45:40.380 but I'll definitely give him props for, you know, 45:40.460 --> 45:43.080 at least sponsoring a good community service. 45:43.900 --> 45:44.300 Nice. 45:45.260 --> 45:46.540 Yeah, yeah, props to him. 45:46.600 --> 45:48.160 I think his name is Austin or something. 45:48.320 --> 45:49.420 That was my Borat impression. 45:50.120 --> 45:50.320 Yeah. 45:50.980 --> 45:52.160 It is nice, yeah? 45:52.160 --> 45:52.980 It's nice. 45:53.080 --> 45:54.120 I like this. 45:55.120 --> 46:01.160 Yes, back in Kazakhstan, we use our direct push e-mail to get the prostitutes. 46:01.720 --> 46:05.080 How annoying would it be if we did a whole episode in that voice, of all things? 46:05.080 --> 46:06.200 Dude, that would rock. 46:06.360 --> 46:07.660 We've done the prawn episode. 46:08.040 --> 46:09.700 We've done the rock and roll. 46:09.860 --> 46:11.000 That was the funnest one. 46:11.040 --> 46:12.620 Not theory, not doing our rock and roll voices. 46:13.120 --> 46:14.300 We did the pirate day. 46:14.480 --> 46:17.600 We did, oh my gosh, we've done a lot of them come to think of it. 46:18.260 --> 46:19.460 Oh, we're a bunch of losers, aren't we? 46:19.460 --> 46:20.900 Yeah, we're going to have to add Borat to the list. 46:22.480 --> 46:22.760 And Ollie G. 46:22.760 --> 46:23.580 That's like some reporters. 46:23.960 --> 46:24.220 Yeah. 46:24.220 --> 46:30.560 Anyway, well, actually, I'll just talk about one thing I've done recently, physical security 46:30.560 --> 46:30.940 here. 46:31.740 --> 46:35.360 I actually have a Viper alarm system on my car. 46:37.260 --> 46:41.640 And specifically, the 791XV, if anybody wants to go out there and try to own it. 46:41.640 --> 46:42.840 Oh, it's got the X in it. 46:42.860 --> 46:44.120 That means it's like extra cool. 46:44.560 --> 46:47.660 That means it's, yeah, this one, it is kind of cool. 46:47.660 --> 46:49.600 It's got the, it's not a pager. 46:49.680 --> 46:57.540 I call it a pager, which is not good terminology, but it's got a little RF, it's got a little 46:57.540 --> 47:02.540 antenna in there that if somebody does try to go in the car, not only does it set the 47:02.540 --> 47:05.700 alarm off, but it sets my pager, my key fob off. 47:06.360 --> 47:11.360 So if I'm in the office and somebody tries to break into it, it'll vibrate and it's got 47:11.360 --> 47:15.200 a little LED on the front that'll tell me where, what set the alarm off. 47:15.260 --> 47:15.760 Was it the door? 47:15.880 --> 47:16.480 Was it the trunk? 47:16.560 --> 47:17.100 Was it the hood? 47:17.180 --> 47:17.760 Was it the whatever? 47:18.640 --> 47:22.980 But simple point being that if it goes off, I run outside and kick somebody's ass. 47:23.080 --> 47:23.860 That's the whole reason. 47:23.940 --> 47:24.380 That's the point. 47:24.420 --> 47:24.820 I got it. 47:25.320 --> 47:26.280 No, no, no, no, no. 47:26.280 --> 47:27.040 Say it like it is. 47:27.260 --> 47:28.880 You run outside and get your ass kicked. 47:29.220 --> 47:29.720 No, I'm glad. 47:29.900 --> 47:32.240 Hey, no, you mess with my car and you get fucked up. 47:32.380 --> 47:32.620 See? 47:33.160 --> 47:35.420 There's no, there's no playing around with that. 47:35.420 --> 47:37.860 You fuck with my car, that's your ass. 47:38.180 --> 47:38.820 It's that simple. 47:39.020 --> 47:39.800 Gang, bang, or stink. 47:39.920 --> 47:40.400 That's right. 47:40.400 --> 47:42.540 Gang, bang, I don't know about all that now. 47:43.880 --> 47:46.180 So, well, what has happened? 47:46.300 --> 47:48.980 You see, what had happened was, I was, you know, it was like this. 47:49.040 --> 47:49.780 See, here's what happened. 47:49.900 --> 47:50.840 All right, so here's how it went down. 47:50.860 --> 47:51.120 You ready? 47:51.900 --> 47:52.640 Here's what happened. 47:53.200 --> 47:54.420 I lost the key fob. 47:56.360 --> 47:58.920 First of all, the key fob's a piece of crap. 47:59.000 --> 47:59.880 It falls apart easily. 48:00.140 --> 48:03.420 I lost the back of the battery case a long time ago, so I was walking around with the 48:03.420 --> 48:06.540 battery sliding in and out all the time, which is annoying because it makes a noise 48:06.540 --> 48:07.300 every time it does. 48:07.300 --> 48:11.280 And then I tried to scotch tape it together, and of course, that doesn't last long. 48:11.340 --> 48:14.540 And then you've got to change the battery, and it ruins it anyway, every month or two. 48:14.880 --> 48:16.640 And anyway, yada, yada, yada. 48:16.680 --> 48:19.500 I finally got to the point where I lost it, so I was signed to buy a new one. 48:19.580 --> 48:21.340 So, interesting process, I thought. 48:21.400 --> 48:22.420 I'm like, this is kind of interesting. 48:22.520 --> 48:28.020 What's to stop me from, you know, ordering one of these replacement key fobs online and, 48:28.020 --> 48:30.300 you know, going out and owning someone else's car? 48:30.300 --> 48:32.400 So, I'd never really known how the process worked. 48:33.160 --> 48:37.220 So, those of you who do, and you can just kind of fuck off now, and I'm going to tell 48:37.220 --> 48:38.280 the story to those of you who don't. 48:38.960 --> 48:43.080 Basically, what you have to do is you get this transmitter, and of course, you're going 48:43.080 --> 48:49.680 to have to reprogram it to the frequency that the alarm is using, right? 48:49.720 --> 48:52.900 So, I thought to myself, well, that would be really cool if that's all there is to it, 48:52.920 --> 48:56.840 what's to stop me from syncing it up with someone else's car, you know, and thereby 48:56.840 --> 49:02.840 owning their car just with my new programmable remote entry unit. 49:03.340 --> 49:05.740 I don't know, key fob, I'm going to keep calling it, because I don't know what else to call it. 49:05.740 --> 49:06.840 Key fob, no, that sounds right. 49:07.440 --> 49:10.000 Transmitter, it's a remote transmitter is what it is. 49:10.260 --> 49:13.940 So, well, here's actually how it works. 49:14.000 --> 49:17.180 It's very secure, as it turns out, and I just did not know this, because I've never 49:17.180 --> 49:22.860 been through it before, but to reprogram this thing, you have to do a couple of things first, 49:23.140 --> 49:25.660 and this is why I kind of preface it with physical security. 49:25.660 --> 49:27.840 First of all, you have to have a door open. 49:29.260 --> 49:31.120 Well, that alone, okay, that's kind of a problem. 49:31.240 --> 49:32.360 I mean, I guess you could get a door open. 49:32.420 --> 49:34.480 What if somebody left their car unlocked? 49:34.580 --> 49:37.140 You could obviously open it very easily, so that's not a problem. 49:37.720 --> 49:40.300 But that is pretty detrimental if somebody's car is locked. 49:40.440 --> 49:42.180 You'd have to jury-rig it. 49:42.220 --> 49:46.880 You'd have to slip your Slim Jim in there, which, you know, I have one in my trunk at all 49:46.880 --> 49:47.180 times. 49:47.260 --> 49:49.840 I don't know about everybody else, but get the door open. 49:49.900 --> 49:50.700 So, there's step one. 49:51.100 --> 49:52.500 My trunk's full with that, Hooker's. 49:53.160 --> 49:55.580 Well, yeah, but you have room for the Slim Jim, don't you? 49:55.580 --> 49:57.380 I mean, you've got room for the bat to knock him out. 49:57.460 --> 49:59.100 You should certainly have room for a little Slim Jim. 49:59.920 --> 50:00.720 No, no, no. 50:00.800 --> 50:02.320 I just have chloroform in my pocket. 50:02.860 --> 50:03.180 Oh. 50:04.220 --> 50:05.180 Snap into a Slim Jim! 50:06.080 --> 50:09.860 So, the second part of this, not only do you have to have the door open, you have to 50:09.860 --> 50:11.740 have the key in the on position. 50:12.020 --> 50:13.540 Well, there's a big problem. 50:13.660 --> 50:19.080 If you've got the key, well, you know, it's kind of like having physical access to a computer. 50:19.700 --> 50:22.880 You know, if you can sit down in front of an unlocked computer, you know, you've got 50:22.880 --> 50:24.320 the key or you've got the password. 50:24.720 --> 50:26.580 There's not really much of a challenge left to it. 50:26.580 --> 50:30.180 So, that's another big detriment physically to getting in the car. 50:30.260 --> 50:31.360 So, you actually have to open the door. 50:31.440 --> 50:32.900 You have to put the key in the on position. 50:33.680 --> 50:35.660 And then, you have to look up on this little chart. 50:35.740 --> 50:39.000 Now, these are probably available online, but it gives you a little chart because this 50:39.000 --> 50:41.700 transmitter can be used for several different models. 50:42.340 --> 50:47.220 So, you'll have to put in a little code that associates with your particular model. 50:48.100 --> 50:49.780 So, you have to punch in a little code to it. 50:50.300 --> 50:52.980 And there's also what they call, what I call anyway, a valet switch. 50:53.060 --> 50:54.720 In their directions, they were pretty vague. 50:54.840 --> 50:56.080 They didn't, they called it something else. 50:56.200 --> 50:59.220 But there's a little switch that you can put in your car. 51:01.240 --> 51:04.080 Irrelevant of this, when you get the alarm put in the first place, there's a little switch 51:04.080 --> 51:08.320 you can put in at the bottom because this model also has the remote start feature. 51:09.440 --> 51:13.220 Well, sometimes you don't want other people remote starting your car. 51:13.220 --> 51:16.420 So, there's a little, basically, an override switch, an override button. 51:16.420 --> 51:17.420 They call it a valet switch. 51:17.500 --> 51:20.700 So, if you give your car to valet, they can't remotely start your car. 51:22.500 --> 51:28.140 So, you have to flip that over into the off position as well when you program your car. 51:28.200 --> 51:32.080 So, you've got to go through three stages of pretty intense physical access. 51:32.220 --> 51:35.320 And if you've got that kind of physical access, you pretty much already got the car, right? 51:36.560 --> 51:41.300 So, long story short, you can't really own somebody's car with this program over remote 51:41.300 --> 51:45.540 control as easily as you would think because it won't even go into listening mode or programming 51:45.540 --> 51:47.560 mode without doing all of those things. 51:47.640 --> 51:51.840 Now, once you do it, punch in a code, you wait for a few seconds and it reprograms itself 51:51.840 --> 51:55.800 in a matter of two seconds, if that, and you're done. 51:55.920 --> 51:57.220 And it's all synced up and ready to go. 51:59.180 --> 52:04.260 Now, don't ask me why or how I got an automatic start on my stick shift car. 52:04.360 --> 52:05.700 That's a whole other story altogether. 52:06.700 --> 52:08.520 I didn't know you drove sticks. 52:08.520 --> 52:10.080 Come on, real men drive sticks. 52:10.980 --> 52:11.460 Oh, whatever. 52:11.600 --> 52:13.040 I do four wheels and it goes. 52:13.380 --> 52:14.240 Oh, please. 52:14.340 --> 52:16.140 You've got to have control over the automobile. 52:16.320 --> 52:18.160 See, you know how much crap I got for the car hacking. 52:18.260 --> 52:20.240 We're not going to go off into that segment on the radio show, too. 52:23.120 --> 52:24.080 Nobody likes to car hacking. 52:26.820 --> 52:27.760 Well, no, it was cool. 52:28.880 --> 52:29.780 We're not going into it. 52:30.080 --> 52:31.820 Do you want to go segue into the main topic here? 52:31.820 --> 52:36.960 Yeah, and actually that is kind of a segue as far as physical security somewhat relates 52:36.960 --> 52:40.100 to our main topic insofar as e-voting. 52:41.120 --> 52:45.240 And specifically, I guess, I don't know, the best way to approach this, I would think, 52:45.360 --> 52:46.440 and I don't know, tell me what you think. 52:46.940 --> 52:49.420 I did watch this HBO special. 52:49.580 --> 52:53.000 It's kind of somewhat been in the news lately called, I think it's called Hacking the Vote 52:53.000 --> 52:53.960 or something like that. 52:54.500 --> 52:55.500 Hacking Democracy or something? 52:55.520 --> 52:56.080 Yeah, it is. 52:56.080 --> 52:56.720 Hacking Democracy. 52:56.840 --> 52:57.460 That's what it's called. 52:57.460 --> 52:59.840 So there was some controversy. 52:59.840 --> 53:04.140 It's been in the news because there's a little bit of controversy where it is pretty much 53:04.140 --> 53:05.540 what you're assuming it's about. 53:05.620 --> 53:11.420 It's about the Diebold machines and the vulnerabilities and how easily they can be defrauded or how 53:11.420 --> 53:12.480 inaccurate they can be. 53:12.540 --> 53:14.720 I guess it's probably a better way to approach it. 53:15.320 --> 53:19.420 So this documentary just aired, I think, three days ago when you're listening to this 53:19.420 --> 53:19.820 probably. 53:20.040 --> 53:22.800 I think it aired on Sunday or premiered on Saturday or Sunday. 53:22.800 --> 53:29.320 And I guess Diebold and other companies were trying to fight it being released, telling 53:29.320 --> 53:31.240 HBO they couldn't air it or something like that. 53:31.340 --> 53:32.860 And HBO was like, it's the foo. 53:33.920 --> 53:35.000 And they aired it anyway. 53:35.300 --> 53:36.000 Get back to voting. 53:36.340 --> 53:36.580 Yeah. 53:36.780 --> 53:40.280 So she voted, watched it, and it was actually pretty decent. 53:40.440 --> 53:41.020 It was pretty good. 53:41.040 --> 53:41.940 Did you see it by chance? 53:42.780 --> 53:43.360 No, no. 53:43.820 --> 53:47.260 I know not of these premium channels that you speak of. 53:47.660 --> 53:49.040 Oh, yes, yes. 53:49.100 --> 53:51.900 You have to get the HBO and HD. 53:52.840 --> 53:55.120 But, yeah, it was pretty interesting. 53:56.500 --> 53:58.320 And a lot of it, here's the thing. 53:58.400 --> 54:01.480 I had kind of a little discussion, we'll say. 54:02.020 --> 54:02.340 Debate? 54:02.520 --> 54:02.820 Argument? 54:03.000 --> 54:03.160 No. 54:03.340 --> 54:09.140 We had a discussion with someone at work about, at the end of this thing, I kind of, there's 54:09.140 --> 54:12.840 a lady at the end of it, basically, and I'm not giving away the ending or anything, but 54:12.840 --> 54:17.800 she was kind of putting on these crocodile tears or the kind of fake, I don't know if it 54:17.800 --> 54:21.600 was fake, but she started crying about, oh, my gosh, all our democracies are gone. 54:21.600 --> 54:23.960 I don't know if all our bases belong to Diebold, whatever. 54:24.760 --> 54:25.680 I'm in your voting machines. 54:25.860 --> 54:26.920 I'm stealing your democracies. 54:27.140 --> 54:28.060 I'm stealing your votes. 54:30.380 --> 54:37.080 It's like, yeah, I mean, it's kind of sad and pathetic, and it just, I don't know, it 54:37.080 --> 54:38.700 came across, come on, you're really crying? 54:38.700 --> 54:43.260 I mean, listen, I don't, I'm ashamed that our democracy has turned to this and it's a 54:43.260 --> 54:46.000 fucking joke also, but this is not new. 54:46.620 --> 54:49.540 You know, it's like, I guess she'd heard it for the first time or didn't realize that 54:49.540 --> 54:51.240 this was not like a hacker who was in the know. 54:51.360 --> 54:55.080 This was a, you know, a lady who was trying to get down to the truth and all that kind 54:55.080 --> 54:55.400 of stuff. 54:55.440 --> 54:58.860 So she was kind of, I don't know, I thought it was a little overly dramatic by self, 54:58.860 --> 55:02.340 but it's like, this is not news to anybody. 55:02.620 --> 55:06.460 So if you're looking at this thinking you're going to see anything new, it wasn't a whole 55:06.460 --> 55:10.340 lot new exactly, but it was very well put together, very well done. 55:11.680 --> 55:17.560 And I guess basically, should I just kind of walk through it maybe and you jump in? 55:17.640 --> 55:21.660 Because I know there's some, we're going to tie this into some e-voting topics in general, 55:21.760 --> 55:22.040 right? 55:22.800 --> 55:23.200 Yeah, yeah. 55:23.200 --> 55:24.260 As we go along or? 55:24.880 --> 55:27.940 Well, I have a couple of talking points written down here in the show notes. 55:28.260 --> 55:33.840 Okay, well, I think, I think, I mean, from what I've heard, I mean, I haven't heard, I 55:33.840 --> 55:37.080 have, like I said, I haven't watched it, but I've heard a bunch of people talking about 55:37.080 --> 55:40.780 it and apparently, it's a lot like you, apparently a lot of people agreed that it was pretty good, 55:40.820 --> 55:45.560 it was nonpartisan, it wasn't, you know, too inflammatory. 55:47.560 --> 55:47.880 Inflammatory? 55:48.000 --> 55:49.240 I don't know, that's not the word I'm looking for. 55:49.340 --> 55:51.620 Too, it's not, it's not as much as, you know. 55:51.620 --> 55:53.080 It's biased towards any party or anything. 55:53.080 --> 55:54.500 The sky is falling, you know. 55:55.400 --> 55:59.040 No, no, it was really an analysis, it was an analysis, it was a start to finish study 55:59.040 --> 56:00.580 and let's see if we can prove it kind of thing. 56:00.940 --> 56:07.300 And actually, the opening I thought was really cool because it's a lady that runs, I think 56:07.300 --> 56:11.600 the site is blackboxvoting.org, I'm pretty sure about that. 56:12.360 --> 56:16.200 And the lady that runs that, it was basically, she's a non-techie, she's actually a writer 56:16.200 --> 56:17.220 if I remember correctly. 56:17.660 --> 56:23.760 She's a non-techie and she was from here in Florida, if I remember correctly as well, 56:24.240 --> 56:26.700 where we had a lot of the voter problems in 2000. 56:27.960 --> 56:33.320 So the documentary itself, I thought, and let me preface again, we're talking about this 56:33.320 --> 56:36.420 from a technical standpoint, analytical standpoint, kind of a review. 56:36.420 --> 56:39.740 We're not going to go party lines, we're not going to go into politics, we're not going 56:39.740 --> 56:40.380 to do any of that. 56:40.740 --> 56:43.920 And I have to say, the documentary, I think, did a fairly good job. 56:44.000 --> 56:47.800 They did drop a few names, but for the most cases, they were in factual statements and 56:47.800 --> 56:48.140 comments. 56:48.480 --> 56:51.160 So, you know, I guess that's perfectly fine. 56:51.800 --> 56:57.340 But, that being said, they went in and basically, you know, she was driven by the 2000 election 56:57.340 --> 57:02.500 and the outcome being so close and the questionable votes and the hanging chads and yada, yada, 57:02.580 --> 57:03.600 yada, all those stories. 57:03.600 --> 57:08.420 So, she kind of went on this little quest of trying to figure out, hey, did my vote really 57:08.420 --> 57:08.700 count? 57:08.820 --> 57:11.380 Which is extremely admirable, in my opinion. 57:13.100 --> 57:14.200 So, the first thing that she did... 57:14.200 --> 57:18.780 I actually think she went to DEFCON 12, I believe it was. 57:18.780 --> 57:19.940 Well, and here's the funny thing. 57:19.980 --> 57:25.860 They referred in the documentary later on that she went to a hacking security conference, 57:26.020 --> 57:27.920 but they didn't mention the name. 57:28.840 --> 57:29.880 And I was there. 57:29.980 --> 57:30.440 Oh, yes. 57:31.580 --> 57:32.560 So, wait a minute. 57:32.560 --> 57:33.840 Did I... 57:33.840 --> 57:36.120 No, I presented at 13, right? 57:36.280 --> 57:36.680 Yeah, anyway. 57:37.080 --> 57:37.540 I don't know. 57:37.600 --> 57:38.280 You weren't there for 12. 57:38.340 --> 57:39.180 You weren't there for 12. 57:39.200 --> 57:40.000 I don't think I made that one. 57:42.240 --> 57:43.380 Anyway, she... 57:44.060 --> 57:46.620 The thing started off, I thought, really cool. 57:47.200 --> 57:50.720 First thing she did is she just started going out into global interweb and doing some research. 57:50.960 --> 57:53.960 Of course, like anybody should start doing when they're doing any kind of hacking, go do 57:53.960 --> 57:54.660 your research first. 57:54.720 --> 57:55.220 Do some homework. 57:55.220 --> 57:58.520 She went out there and basically went searching for Dibold. 57:58.740 --> 58:00.580 She did a Google search. 58:01.440 --> 58:04.340 And when she got the Google search, she clicked on the page. 58:05.040 --> 58:07.780 And she wasn't actually taking to a webpage or a website. 58:08.420 --> 58:10.080 She was taking to an FTP site. 58:10.080 --> 58:18.360 The FTP site was run by Dibold and it contained the source code for their system. 58:19.880 --> 58:23.180 So, now, I would have had a fucking ball with that myself. 58:23.780 --> 58:25.280 I would have eaten that shit alive. 58:25.520 --> 58:29.660 But her, being a non-techie, she didn't really know exactly what she had stumbled across. 58:30.520 --> 58:31.360 And she spent a long time... 58:31.360 --> 58:32.200 I think he would have pooped himself. 58:32.900 --> 58:33.400 What's that? 58:34.540 --> 58:35.820 I think he would have pooped himself. 58:36.060 --> 58:36.420 Absolutely. 58:37.220 --> 58:37.860 I would have never... 58:37.860 --> 58:38.980 I would have been in the house all week. 58:39.040 --> 58:40.200 I would have called in sick to work. 58:40.440 --> 58:40.760 Anyway. 58:43.140 --> 58:46.000 She did not really know what she had because she was not a techie. 58:46.060 --> 58:46.820 She was not a programmer. 58:46.920 --> 58:48.080 She couldn't decipher this code. 58:48.580 --> 58:52.480 And that's one of the things that ended up leading her to this unnamed security conference, 58:52.600 --> 58:53.020 DEFCON 12. 58:54.100 --> 58:56.780 She went looking for someone who could help her out and to decipher this. 58:57.200 --> 58:58.360 And she found someone. 58:58.360 --> 59:01.480 And my gosh, I should have the name and I don't. 59:01.480 --> 59:03.320 So I horribly apologize to him if he's listening. 59:03.880 --> 59:06.800 But I believe it was a Dutch... 59:06.800 --> 59:10.880 He was a European hacker who had done some research on the devices. 59:11.320 --> 59:13.900 And some people who did some... 59:13.900 --> 59:17.980 Helped her decipher the code itself and how it was working and how simplistic it was. 59:18.480 --> 59:21.140 And remember earlier when I referred and said, you know, 59:21.400 --> 59:23.060 Microsoft Access would come back up later? 59:23.220 --> 59:25.160 Well, guess what it's powered by? 59:26.360 --> 59:27.820 I'm guessing Microsoft Access. 59:27.940 --> 59:28.560 You got it. 59:28.660 --> 59:29.500 Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. 59:29.560 --> 59:30.420 Microsoft Access. 59:30.420 --> 59:34.980 So the code itself, first of all, was out there and publicly available. 59:35.220 --> 59:36.680 And it apparently was very simplistic. 59:36.840 --> 59:38.700 Another cool thing is the documentary itself. 59:39.720 --> 59:42.100 And the very opening and credits and the very opening scenes, 59:42.200 --> 59:45.640 they were scrolling some source code on the screen as they talked, 59:45.700 --> 59:47.140 you know, for dramatic effect and whatnot. 59:48.080 --> 59:51.720 And if you can actually read C, C++, you can read code. 59:52.100 --> 59:53.820 As it's scrolling by, I'm looking at it. 59:53.820 --> 59:58.240 I'm like, damn, that's not just fake cookie cutter code that they threw up there for effect. 59:58.240 --> 01:00:00.400 I can see kind of what that code's doing. 01:00:01.040 --> 01:00:02.260 That's legitimate code. 01:00:02.380 --> 01:00:05.880 That's something to do with voting stuff right there, which I guess makes sense. 01:00:05.880 --> 01:00:08.280 They're owning Dival because he just saw the code. 01:00:08.420 --> 01:00:09.060 Hey, you find... 01:00:09.060 --> 01:00:10.100 Listen, let me tell you something else. 01:00:10.180 --> 01:00:16.720 On HDTV, you do some freeze frames and you can see some stuff on screens that people might not have thought of or realized before. 01:00:16.720 --> 01:00:21.080 Back to my, what was my presentation that enters own? 01:00:21.180 --> 01:00:27.380 And then again, that Hope was looking and finding all the information on the screenshots and things that are... 01:00:27.380 --> 01:00:32.020 Oh, my gosh, I was going to see a presentation I saw the other day where somebody had screenshots with lots of docs in it. 01:00:32.100 --> 01:00:38.300 But anyway, so the documentary started off with that, how she went out to Google, downloaded these things. 01:00:38.400 --> 01:00:40.580 Well, Divald accuses her of breaking in and stealing them. 01:00:40.580 --> 01:00:45.060 Gee, any hackers out there can't relate to that story? 01:00:45.740 --> 01:00:49.720 Let's see, it's out there on Google, it's on the global interweb, it's on your site with no password, 01:00:49.880 --> 01:00:53.780 and it's just sitting out there playing to be found, yet somebody broke in. 01:00:53.840 --> 01:00:55.420 No, you're a fucking moron. 01:00:56.120 --> 01:01:00.800 Okay, so they still hold, and I guess they're still fighting with her, trying to punish her, saying that she broke into it. 01:01:00.820 --> 01:01:04.020 I guess it's still something that's ongoing, or they alluded to it being anyway. 01:01:04.020 --> 01:01:09.840 But they couldn't do anything about it, I guess, so she had it, was out there shopping it around. 01:01:09.860 --> 01:01:10.780 The genie is out of the bottle. 01:01:11.220 --> 01:01:12.920 Exactly, you can't put the shit back in the horse. 01:01:14.020 --> 01:01:21.480 So, that, as well as, that drove her even further, what she did is she went down to the voting precincts, 01:01:21.500 --> 01:01:27.660 to Volusia County, Florida, which is where the big fiasco was before, and did some dumpster diving. 01:01:27.880 --> 01:01:30.820 And not only there, lots of other precincts as well, but that one, she started that, 01:01:30.820 --> 01:01:37.660 and she got hit the jackpot with lots of registries, lots of reports, lots of things that showed some incorrect information. 01:01:38.360 --> 01:01:42.480 Printouts that showed that Al Gore had negative so many thousand votes. 01:01:43.500 --> 01:01:47.600 Why is there even a fucking negative, why is subtract even a function in these programs? 01:01:47.740 --> 01:01:49.120 There's no, it's an impossibility. 01:01:50.220 --> 01:01:52.100 Because Al Gore sucks that much. 01:01:52.240 --> 01:01:53.960 Well, true, true, but we won't go there. 01:01:55.140 --> 01:01:57.160 See, why'd you have to go and bring politics into this show? 01:01:57.160 --> 01:02:01.920 No, I'm not, I'm not saying, I'm just saying Al Gore, I'm not saying anything about any other, 01:02:02.100 --> 01:02:04.300 I'm not saying politically, I just can't stand the man. 01:02:04.640 --> 01:02:06.900 That little wooden boy, come on, he invented the interweb. 01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:09.020 Him and Cliff LeBlonski. 01:02:09.260 --> 01:02:17.660 But they basically found all these documents, all these registries, lots of printouts and stuff like that, 01:02:17.900 --> 01:02:21.780 that legally, they're supposed to be held for X number of years in storage, 01:02:21.920 --> 01:02:23.520 but they were already being thrown out. 01:02:24.020 --> 01:02:25.940 They were inaccurate to what the results were showing. 01:02:25.940 --> 01:02:29.640 They were showing negative numbers, which, of course, pushed her further to go confront Diebold and say, 01:02:29.720 --> 01:02:31.540 hey, how did this happen? 01:02:31.720 --> 01:02:33.140 You know, how do you have negative votes? 01:02:33.240 --> 01:02:35.500 You know, that's just ridiculous. 01:02:35.660 --> 01:02:38.460 It's kind of like when I mess with people when I go into the everything's a dollar store. 01:02:39.260 --> 01:02:42.820 Every time I go into the everything's a dollar store, I always ask the lady at the cash register, 01:02:42.900 --> 01:02:45.820 I'm like, how come you don't just have one big button that says one on it? 01:02:46.600 --> 01:02:47.820 I mean, everything's a dollar, right? 01:02:47.880 --> 01:02:50.880 Just hit the one button over and over again, but I digress. 01:02:50.880 --> 01:02:53.560 And don't write any email. 01:02:53.640 --> 01:02:54.480 I know why they have them. 01:02:54.540 --> 01:02:55.260 That's a joke, people. 01:02:57.280 --> 01:03:00.320 So it's like these brought up more questions. 01:03:00.440 --> 01:03:04.760 She went and tried to confront Diebold, who, of course, are defensive about it, deny the whole thing, 01:03:05.560 --> 01:03:09.740 claim that, you know, it doesn't mean anything, that just because a report generated this, 01:03:09.800 --> 01:03:11.720 that the results were accurate, et cetera, et cetera. 01:03:12.400 --> 01:03:15.620 Well, she got some cooperation from another precinct here in Florida, 01:03:15.860 --> 01:03:18.880 and they did some testing and found out, again, that, like I said earlier, 01:03:18.960 --> 01:03:21.360 that it was powered by Microsoft Access on the back end. 01:03:22.480 --> 01:03:26.660 And they went in and looked at the reports for the voting, did some tests, 01:03:26.700 --> 01:03:28.040 and they're like, okay, we're going to do some tests. 01:03:28.080 --> 01:03:28.760 Here's how many votes. 01:03:28.800 --> 01:03:30.220 So it's from a local high school election. 01:03:30.300 --> 01:03:32.620 They said this person got this many votes, this one got this many. 01:03:33.200 --> 01:03:34.200 You know, fine, right? 01:03:34.200 --> 01:03:36.120 Well, watch how easy this is. 01:03:36.420 --> 01:03:40.840 They went, double-clicked on the MDB, or I think it was an MDB, Microsoft database format, 01:03:41.680 --> 01:03:42.620 Excel fired up. 01:03:43.020 --> 01:03:47.140 They went and browsed the table with the votes, typed in 5,000 instead of 500. 01:03:47.620 --> 01:03:49.620 Bam, instant vote change. 01:03:50.780 --> 01:03:54.460 Completely changed the election by simply going as anybody could have gone in 01:03:54.460 --> 01:03:58.920 at any precinct around the world that used that 4.0 version of the software 01:03:58.920 --> 01:04:01.140 and changed the votes that easily. 01:04:02.400 --> 01:04:04.040 And this was just a few years ago. 01:04:04.100 --> 01:04:05.820 This was after the 2000 election. 01:04:06.000 --> 01:04:07.880 We don't know what happened with any of those voting machines. 01:04:07.980 --> 01:04:09.240 It could absolutely have happened. 01:04:09.240 --> 01:04:11.300 And how would we ever know? 01:04:12.420 --> 01:04:14.380 Well, that's where her question was. 01:04:15.420 --> 01:04:18.520 Well, a lot of people are saying, oh, you know, this could happen, this could happen, 01:04:18.580 --> 01:04:19.140 this could happen. 01:04:19.720 --> 01:04:22.060 And, I mean, yeah, okay, I will agree. 01:04:22.160 --> 01:04:25.340 Yes, all of those stuff are theoretical possibilities. 01:04:25.460 --> 01:04:32.660 But the question is, I mean, it's more of a concern that if, getting back to the 01:04:32.660 --> 01:04:36.360 Physical Security Act's point of it, you know, you need to make sure that these boxes are 01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:37.760 secured and all this kind of stuff. 01:04:37.800 --> 01:04:42.380 And I think that part of the problem is, is that they're expecting, you know, 01:04:42.480 --> 01:04:46.240 Diebold, you know, or, you know, I'm not even going to say Diebold, you know, 01:04:46.360 --> 01:04:51.020 Jim Bob's, you know, voting machine, you know, manufacturing plant, you know, 01:04:51.020 --> 01:04:54.180 when they hire this developer, he's expecting it not to have all of this. 01:04:54.880 --> 01:04:56.080 You know, he's not hardening it. 01:04:56.120 --> 01:04:57.960 He's assuming that certain things are going to happen. 01:04:57.960 --> 01:05:03.140 Like, you know, say, for example, you know, they lock these machines up every, you know, 01:05:03.180 --> 01:05:04.980 for like, you know, 354 days a year. 01:05:05.140 --> 01:05:08.920 And a lot of these things just don't happen because, you know, you're talking to your 01:05:08.920 --> 01:05:10.120 local elections commissioner. 01:05:10.280 --> 01:05:12.140 He doesn't have any idea about computers. 01:05:12.560 --> 01:05:12.700 Right. 01:05:12.780 --> 01:05:14.140 He's usually a political appointee. 01:05:14.400 --> 01:05:18.040 Yeah, but you know that all I have to do myself is to walk down there and become a 01:05:18.040 --> 01:05:19.820 volunteer at the precinct. 01:05:19.880 --> 01:05:22.420 And who knows what they might, I tell them I have computer experience. 01:05:22.500 --> 01:05:23.860 That may be what they assign me to do. 01:05:23.860 --> 01:05:26.800 Do you want me in charge of that box that calculates the votes? 01:05:27.960 --> 01:05:30.000 Actually, yeah, I trust you a lot more than what I have to do. 01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:31.620 Well, that's a whole other topic. 01:05:31.880 --> 01:05:32.320 But anyway. 01:05:32.560 --> 01:05:33.380 Well, no, no, no, no. 01:05:33.460 --> 01:05:38.980 I mean, political leanings aside, I mean, I would trust you a lot more than I would trust, 01:05:39.040 --> 01:05:42.060 you know, some random schmo off the street. 01:05:42.320 --> 01:05:43.840 Aw, that makes me feel special. 01:05:44.760 --> 01:05:45.120 Aw. 01:05:45.420 --> 01:05:46.000 I have a chubby. 01:05:47.760 --> 01:05:48.920 I've got a chubby checker. 01:05:49.160 --> 01:05:49.460 Anyway. 01:05:50.220 --> 01:05:51.760 But honestly, this is a valid point. 01:05:51.760 --> 01:05:56.420 I mean, joking aside, I mean, yes, it's like you're playing the coulda, woulda, coulda game, 01:05:56.520 --> 01:05:57.800 you know, coulda, woulda, shoulda game. 01:05:58.360 --> 01:06:01.340 Which is very easy to do in retrospect and stuff like that. 01:06:01.400 --> 01:06:04.040 But let's acknowledge that at least the possibility exists. 01:06:04.480 --> 01:06:10.600 And when you're talking about one of the greatest things that we have to execute our powers of democracy, 01:06:10.860 --> 01:06:14.180 and that is voting, you can't leave holes like that open. 01:06:14.260 --> 01:06:15.120 You can't do it. 01:06:15.120 --> 01:06:18.500 And the overall problem here, and I'm not going to delve into politics, 01:06:18.500 --> 01:06:24.400 but one of the overall comments of the show was this is what happens when you start privatizing. 01:06:24.400 --> 01:06:34.680 Privatizing meaning giving private corporations control over public events and things like voting where they don't really, 01:06:34.800 --> 01:06:37.800 it's not open source, they hide all, they would not release anything. 01:06:37.800 --> 01:06:42.520 All these demands and questions people made on them, die bold, deny, deny, dodge, duck, deny. 01:06:43.220 --> 01:06:44.640 They would not give up the source code. 01:06:44.720 --> 01:06:45.700 There's no auditing done. 01:06:46.300 --> 01:06:51.360 They followed up on the auditing process in this documentary as well. 01:06:51.460 --> 01:06:54.300 They went to the auditing company that signed off on it, confronted the guy, 01:06:54.300 --> 01:06:57.700 and the guy basically said, look, all we do is write reports. 01:06:58.320 --> 01:07:02.440 They give us a list of check this, does it work, check that, does it work, check that, does it work, 01:07:02.480 --> 01:07:03.180 and we check it. 01:07:03.580 --> 01:07:06.200 Guess what the one thing on the list that said N.A., do not check? 01:07:06.900 --> 01:07:07.300 Security. 01:07:09.120 --> 01:07:12.500 So security was never checked outside of die bold, only internally. 01:07:13.180 --> 01:07:18.940 Well, that's, again, we've, hackers for years, have talked about the dangers of closed source for things like that, you know? 01:07:19.160 --> 01:07:20.220 So what are you going to do? 01:07:20.220 --> 01:07:25.340 You can't privatize something like that, in my personal opinion, but we'll back away from that, 01:07:25.400 --> 01:07:28.020 and that was one of the other messages and tones of the documentary. 01:07:29.300 --> 01:07:34.380 Well, so that's one aspect of it was getting access to the server and how ridiculous it was 01:07:34.380 --> 01:07:38.200 and that anybody and anyone that had access to the computers could have easily done that. 01:07:38.780 --> 01:07:44.240 Well, the second thing they did was some of the newer die bold machines that used the little memory card. 01:07:45.080 --> 01:07:48.800 Now, as far as I could tell, it didn't look like any memory card I'd really seen before. 01:07:48.800 --> 01:07:54.800 It could have been just a PCM, CIA, POW, JJ, Walker, I don't know what the hell, one of those laptops. 01:07:55.740 --> 01:07:57.800 I think it's a PC card. 01:07:58.580 --> 01:08:00.020 It looked like it at first glance. 01:08:00.120 --> 01:08:05.560 They didn't mention it on the show, but it wasn't anything small like an SD or a compact flash. 01:08:05.640 --> 01:08:07.520 It was something larger, some sort of memory card. 01:08:07.520 --> 01:08:18.380 And this is where she went to DEFCON or the unnamed security conference and had someone contact her from Europe 01:08:18.380 --> 01:08:24.200 saying that he had gotten his hands on one of those cards and a card reader and was going to do some testing on it. 01:08:24.460 --> 01:08:29.660 And he came to the conclusion that the card actually has executable code on it, 01:08:29.660 --> 01:08:36.600 that when you put the card in, it boots up and runs something off the card, which, of course, is a security vulnerability 01:08:36.600 --> 01:08:41.280 because you could put your own card in there and execute your own arbitrary code, arbitrary code injection physically. 01:08:42.520 --> 01:08:44.260 So he pointed this out. 01:08:44.460 --> 01:08:46.220 Die bold, of course, deny, deny, deny. 01:08:46.220 --> 01:08:52.180 And another thing that die bold had been doing is, you know, when they were occasionally caught in a lie, 01:08:52.300 --> 01:08:57.720 what their spin control was, was, oh, well, the person we answered that question was a salesman. 01:08:57.780 --> 01:09:01.000 They didn't know or didn't understand the question, and that's why they said this. 01:09:01.120 --> 01:09:02.400 That's how they'd spin out of it. 01:09:02.460 --> 01:09:09.200 So they confronted the head engineer who designed the whole thing and said, hey, here's another concern. 01:09:09.280 --> 01:09:11.700 Is it possible that somebody could load software onto the card? 01:09:11.780 --> 01:09:13.480 Does it execute anything off the card? 01:09:13.480 --> 01:09:17.800 And he got right up in front of the people and said, nothing is executed on the card. 01:09:17.880 --> 01:09:19.040 There's no executable code. 01:09:19.760 --> 01:09:21.420 Well, that was a flat-out lie. 01:09:22.400 --> 01:09:23.500 And don't sue me, die bold. 01:09:23.600 --> 01:09:26.100 I'm reporting a review of the documentary. 01:09:26.260 --> 01:09:26.920 That's all I'm doing. 01:09:28.780 --> 01:09:30.020 Stank dog versus die bold. 01:09:30.260 --> 01:09:31.280 Die bold versus stank dog. 01:09:31.340 --> 01:09:36.820 So what this gentleman who had the card reader and writer was doing is he went and kind of altered it a little bit 01:09:36.820 --> 01:09:42.900 with a different algorithm that would not only just boost votes or vote for the other person when you put it in. 01:09:42.900 --> 01:09:45.900 And, of course, I kind of skipped over some of the non-technical part. 01:09:46.200 --> 01:09:51.300 There were glitches that they pointed out, too, where sometimes people would touch screen on one candidate 01:09:51.300 --> 01:09:55.820 and the other one would light up, or some candidates simply wouldn't let you touch them. 01:09:55.900 --> 01:09:57.620 They would just be as though they were blocked out. 01:09:57.660 --> 01:09:59.000 They just wouldn't take the vote. 01:09:59.480 --> 01:10:00.620 So there were other glitches. 01:10:00.620 --> 01:10:04.520 I could really just toss up references to Mark Foley right here, 01:10:04.640 --> 01:10:08.960 but I'm not going to do it with that whole, you know, some candidates don't want you to touch them. 01:10:09.780 --> 01:10:10.760 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:10:10.760 --> 01:10:11.400 We'll leave that alone. 01:10:13.220 --> 01:10:17.160 So there was some of that in there, but for the most part I'm focusing on what I thought was the cool part. 01:10:17.160 --> 01:10:19.060 And this was this card. 01:10:19.180 --> 01:10:23.920 So what this gentleman did was he wrote his own little exploit code, I guess, onto the card, 01:10:24.020 --> 01:10:27.160 and he did not have access to the server to test it on. 01:10:27.240 --> 01:10:28.220 So they brought him over here. 01:10:28.300 --> 01:10:31.480 He brought his card jacked up with his algorithm, 01:10:31.760 --> 01:10:38.200 and Diebold claimed that even if there was code put on the card that the server wouldn't allow it to execute. 01:10:38.320 --> 01:10:41.320 The server wouldn't allow the votes to be changed or whatever. 01:10:41.320 --> 01:10:46.480 Well, he put in the card, and basically what he did with his card was every time somebody voted, 01:10:46.940 --> 01:10:50.060 it would have a little algorithm in there, and I don't know the details, 01:10:50.180 --> 01:10:53.360 but basically it was kind of doing a two votes for one type thing. 01:10:54.180 --> 01:10:57.420 Or on some occasions it would work fine, but other occasions it would add, 01:10:57.880 --> 01:11:01.980 subtract a vote from somebody else and add two to the other person and vice versa. 01:11:02.100 --> 01:11:05.700 It had a little algorithm, but long and short of it was the way the algorithm was written, 01:11:06.080 --> 01:11:09.120 whatever the total votes were would match. 01:11:09.120 --> 01:11:13.840 It would just occasionally take one from the other person and give it to the other candidate. 01:11:14.780 --> 01:11:20.260 That way it didn't look odd when you've got a county that has 5,000 people and there were 20,000 votes. 01:11:20.380 --> 01:11:23.820 That could actually be caught by the human eye, somebody who's paying attention. 01:11:23.900 --> 01:11:24.480 It's better voting. 01:11:24.740 --> 01:11:25.040 Right. 01:11:25.320 --> 01:11:26.980 That's what only happened in Chicago. 01:11:27.960 --> 01:11:30.160 Well, yeah, in Ohio and Florida. 01:11:30.940 --> 01:11:36.080 They ran a little test impromptu. 01:11:36.080 --> 01:11:39.760 They made up a fake election that said, can the Dybulb voting machine be hacked? 01:11:39.900 --> 01:11:42.580 And it was a little OCR scanner, and they filled in their bubble sheet. 01:11:43.340 --> 01:11:46.840 And eight of them said no, and one of them said yes, I think is what it was. 01:11:46.880 --> 01:11:47.820 No, two of them said yes. 01:11:48.260 --> 01:11:54.780 And when they slid it through, the results were, I think, nine to one opposite of what they actually voted. 01:11:54.780 --> 01:12:01.720 So it was proof that, yes, with his hacked card, with his arbitrary code, it executed and counted the votes wrong. 01:12:01.780 --> 01:12:09.000 When they printed off the receipt from the individual machine, it was absolutely not what was recorded as the proper votes. 01:12:09.480 --> 01:12:17.320 So they then said, okay, well, we've proven that, but maybe Dybulb's claim about how the server wouldn't accept it is different. 01:12:17.400 --> 01:12:19.040 Maybe the report was hacked. 01:12:19.040 --> 01:12:25.620 The function that generates the report was able to generate fake results, but the actual vote data is still intact. 01:12:25.720 --> 01:12:31.800 So they took it to the server that I mentioned earlier, powered by the access thing, which supposedly they had fixed in later versions. 01:12:32.020 --> 01:12:32.580 Powered by access. 01:12:32.920 --> 01:12:33.180 Yeah. 01:12:33.360 --> 01:12:37.680 Dude, if my voting machine said powered by access, I'd be like, dude, give me a piece of paper right now. 01:12:37.840 --> 01:12:38.700 Yeah, exactly. 01:12:39.100 --> 01:12:39.880 I don't want the paper vote. 01:12:39.880 --> 01:12:43.140 Give me two stones, and I will bang them together, preferably on the machine. 01:12:43.380 --> 01:12:44.640 Hanging chads, right. 01:12:44.640 --> 01:12:49.740 Well, I don't know about you, but when I went, we had the touchscreens when I voted the last time for the presidency, and I was doing the four corners. 01:12:49.900 --> 01:12:50.860 I was dragging and dropping. 01:12:51.000 --> 01:12:53.820 I was trying to click everywhere, but I couldn't break it. 01:12:54.540 --> 01:12:55.240 I couldn't crash it. 01:12:55.240 --> 01:12:59.520 Well, I mean, for me, at least in Massachusetts, I know. 01:13:00.380 --> 01:13:07.000 I've been told that, you know, I know for a fact that where I used to live had this, and I'm pretty sure down here has this as well, where I live now. 01:13:07.640 --> 01:13:12.740 We have basically giant scantron, which is, you know, take the pencil, fill in the bubble, count your vote. 01:13:12.740 --> 01:13:15.860 Yeah, and that's the one they were focusing on at the end of the documentary. 01:13:16.640 --> 01:13:17.240 Oh, really? 01:13:17.400 --> 01:13:21.960 The big scantron side where they fill in the bubble, and then the thing generates a little printout like a receipt tape. 01:13:23.040 --> 01:13:23.780 I'm getting owned. 01:13:24.280 --> 01:13:24.620 Yep. 01:13:25.860 --> 01:13:27.280 Yep, you're the vulnerable one. 01:13:28.240 --> 01:13:36.240 Yeah, and I think that's part of the problem is that there's been electronic voting for quite a while now, and people just don't realize it. 01:13:36.280 --> 01:13:40.680 They think, oh, electronic voting, touchscreens, you know, stuff like that. 01:13:40.680 --> 01:13:47.960 I think a lot of people don't realize that electronic voting also counts in along the lines of, you know, these scantron sheets. 01:13:48.160 --> 01:13:50.220 I didn't know they actually covered that in the documentary. 01:13:50.380 --> 01:13:51.000 I'm glad they did. 01:13:51.660 --> 01:14:00.840 And even going back to, like, you know, 2000 and where they used to have butterfly ballots, it was – I mean, those are all electronic, too. 01:14:00.840 --> 01:14:04.400 I mean, for those of you who don't know, I am a political junkie. 01:14:04.600 --> 01:14:08.160 I mean, you know, Election Tuesday is my Super Bowl Sunday junior. 01:14:08.700 --> 01:14:16.420 I am covering, like, you know, at least 20 different races that have nothing to do with me in the grand scheme of things, but I'm just, you know, absolutely excited. 01:14:16.940 --> 01:14:19.280 And I hope that everybody listening right now voted today, by the way. 01:14:19.440 --> 01:14:20.280 I know I did. 01:14:20.800 --> 01:14:21.480 Will did. 01:14:21.480 --> 01:14:24.520 Actually, well, I guess if you're on the West Coast, you still have a chance. 01:14:24.660 --> 01:14:25.380 I did as well. 01:14:25.840 --> 01:14:32.040 I will admit I did not vote in my primary, but there was absolutely nothing to vote for, quite literally, in my primary. 01:14:32.640 --> 01:14:33.460 The Democrats had it. 01:14:33.820 --> 01:14:42.400 And seriously, Massachusetts, we're having a governor's election, and the Republican nominee, who's the lieutenant governor now, is a stiff. 01:14:43.040 --> 01:14:44.040 And I am voting for this. 01:14:44.040 --> 01:14:47.440 I, actually, I'm not going to name names. 01:14:47.520 --> 01:15:01.340 I was going to give my endorsement for them, but the independent nominee solidified my vote by running a cartoon ad that basically said, that basically showed all of the political people in Massachusetts with their heads up their asses. 01:15:02.520 --> 01:15:03.000 Owned. 01:15:03.760 --> 01:15:11.280 Yeah, you really, like, do a, I'm not going to say anything, but hold on, I got another phone call. 01:15:11.520 --> 01:15:13.100 One ringy dingy dingy dingy. 01:15:13.100 --> 01:15:15.180 Well, I'll continue going on with it a little bit. 01:15:15.300 --> 01:15:40.680 The way the thing basically ended was at the end of the whole documentary, they showed all these vulnerabilities and whatnot, and by the time the documentary was over, as Black Ratchet answers the phone in the background, by the time the whole thing was over, the last thing they did is after finding all this evidence out that they were absolutely flawed, the potential exists for damage, is they went to California to, I don't remember who the person was, 01:15:40.680 --> 01:15:55.880 but one of the larger districts in California who was in the process of signing a $22 million, I think it was, $22 million deal with Diebold to purchase these new machines, and basically this lady from blackboxvoting.org, again, I can't pimp the site enough, of course, 01:15:55.880 --> 01:16:11.960 and her group of people, they went with their evidence and said, hey, look, this is a problem, hey, look, this is a problem, hey, look, this is a problem, so this was towards the end of the documentary, it wasn't the end, but towards the end, and they basically showed this person in California, hey, here it is. 01:16:11.960 --> 01:16:22.960 You're buying stuff that's flawed, they can't deny it, they can't argue, they were telling you up front what it is, and they did end up spending the $22 million on these new, broken, Diebold voting machines anyway. 01:16:23.120 --> 01:16:32.400 So it's almost like, and that's why a lot of times hackers get frustrated and go underground with a lot of their findings or release things anonymously, because we know that people aren't listening. 01:16:32.400 --> 01:16:43.000 Even if we tell them sometimes, they still go and do it anyway. I mean, if you tell somebody that something's insecure, you tell somebody that there's a problem and they ignore it, what are you going to do? 01:16:43.060 --> 01:16:52.500 It's like my Star Search article I released in 2600. I notified those people like a dozen times, and they never bothered to fix it or cared to fix it or never reached them or whatever the case may be. 01:16:53.260 --> 01:17:01.200 You know, and that happens a lot to people. You try and you try to tell them that they have problems, and if they just refuse to acknowledge it, 01:17:01.200 --> 01:17:03.640 what else can you do about the whole thing? 01:17:04.460 --> 01:17:09.500 I mean, well, to be honest, I mean, what's the alternative right now besides not doing anything about it, 01:17:09.500 --> 01:17:13.380 which unfortunately I think a lot of people aren't going to do, period. 01:17:13.380 --> 01:17:17.380 I mean, you know, everyone says, okay, Diebold sucks. We're not going to use Diebold. 01:17:18.460 --> 01:17:20.080 But they're not the only player in the game. 01:17:20.320 --> 01:17:21.420 Well, they're not the only player in the game. 01:17:21.600 --> 01:17:21.860 They aren't? 01:17:22.040 --> 01:17:27.420 They're the predominant one. The documentary specifically mentioned three total, including Diebold. 01:17:27.820 --> 01:17:30.980 Now, Diebold and one of the other companies own 80% of the market share. 01:17:31.800 --> 01:17:36.100 So it is certainly a predominant amount, but they're not the only one out there. 01:17:36.320 --> 01:17:39.920 And secondly, why not develop, you know, custom solutions? 01:17:40.060 --> 01:17:41.340 Why not develop stuff in-house? 01:17:41.340 --> 01:17:44.860 Why not go the open source route, maybe get a consortium together? 01:17:45.620 --> 01:17:47.620 I mean, there's lots of things that you can do. 01:17:47.780 --> 01:17:48.300 And you know what? 01:17:48.340 --> 01:17:52.320 When you're talking about $22 million contracts with Diebold for one precinct, 01:17:52.380 --> 01:17:54.860 imagine how much that adds up to across the United States, 01:17:55.200 --> 01:17:59.000 and you'll get an idea what a huge company we're talking about with Diebold, 01:17:59.000 --> 01:18:02.440 and how can they possibly skimp on these security and have these kind of problems? 01:18:02.560 --> 01:18:03.760 What are they doing with all that money? 01:18:05.020 --> 01:18:07.380 Listen, why not make a government program? 01:18:07.520 --> 01:18:08.700 Let me throw out a proposal here. 01:18:08.720 --> 01:18:10.000 Why not make a government program? 01:18:10.600 --> 01:18:13.160 And generally, I'm against making any new government programs, 01:18:13.160 --> 01:18:15.660 but why not take the money that you were going to do 01:18:15.660 --> 01:18:20.100 and maybe even pull it with other precincts or other states or whatever 01:18:20.100 --> 01:18:27.060 and hire people and develop an open source system with that same money? 01:18:27.140 --> 01:18:30.740 You'll probably come out way ahead in the long run financially, 01:18:31.000 --> 01:18:33.160 and you'll end up with something that's more secure. 01:18:33.160 --> 01:18:37.600 Well, I mean, yes, but we're only looking at it from the software side of things. 01:18:37.740 --> 01:18:42.500 I mean, part of the issue is that you have to have a voting machine. 01:18:42.800 --> 01:18:44.280 It's not a voting software. 01:18:44.660 --> 01:18:49.220 You can't have, you know, J Random user logging in from his website, 01:18:49.540 --> 01:18:51.740 which would be cool, but that's a major issue. 01:18:52.060 --> 01:18:55.080 Come on, look at how many different kiosk things there are out there, 01:18:55.120 --> 01:18:57.020 and a lot of them are very flexible, very powerful. 01:18:57.140 --> 01:18:59.380 How hard could it be to develop something like that as well? 01:18:59.380 --> 01:19:03.600 Well, touch screen screens have dropped in price dramatically. 01:19:03.900 --> 01:19:05.780 I mean, I'm not saying it's an easy solution. 01:19:05.840 --> 01:19:06.280 Don't get me wrong. 01:19:06.320 --> 01:19:07.840 I'm just saying, like, people need to think. 01:19:08.820 --> 01:19:10.880 You know, let's stop just blindly grabbing. 01:19:10.980 --> 01:19:13.020 You know what happened is Diabol got their foot in the door, 01:19:13.140 --> 01:19:18.960 and then what generally happens in the public sector, meaning governments, 01:19:19.820 --> 01:19:23.280 anything government-run, government programs, state government, federal government, etc., 01:19:23.280 --> 01:19:27.640 what happens is once one place does something, it's a Diabol effect. 01:19:27.640 --> 01:19:29.140 Everybody tends to follow suit. 01:19:29.140 --> 01:19:31.540 And I'm telling you this, I can't say in detail, 01:19:31.660 --> 01:19:36.420 but I can tell you from absolute inside experience that this happened. 01:19:36.660 --> 01:19:37.780 One place does it. 01:19:38.720 --> 01:19:41.920 The next place that comes along says, hey, we need to do something like this. 01:19:42.060 --> 01:19:43.800 Do we know any other precincts that have done it? 01:19:43.940 --> 01:19:45.200 They contact that precinct. 01:19:45.280 --> 01:19:46.060 They say, what did you do? 01:19:46.280 --> 01:19:49.180 Oh, well, we just ordered from Diabol, and they came and they installed them, 01:19:49.240 --> 01:19:50.020 and it was easy. 01:19:50.100 --> 01:19:51.180 We just set them up like this. 01:19:51.440 --> 01:19:53.080 And they're like, oh, well, we'll do that too. 01:19:53.140 --> 01:19:53.740 That sounds easy. 01:19:53.760 --> 01:19:54.580 We don't want to do any work. 01:19:55.200 --> 01:19:56.360 And it perpetuates it. 01:19:56.360 --> 01:19:58.400 Well, yeah, I mean, you're not even talking about public sector. 01:19:58.520 --> 01:19:59.440 That's private sector too. 01:19:59.760 --> 01:20:00.940 Yeah, it's really bad in the public sector. 01:20:00.940 --> 01:20:04.500 You know, you have two guys who know each other, and you say, oh, you know, I need to do this. 01:20:04.580 --> 01:20:08.320 Oh, well, you know, this company came in and solved all of our problems. 01:20:08.420 --> 01:20:09.820 Oh, okay, I'll use them. 01:20:09.820 --> 01:20:17.840 And I think Diabol had its foot in the door a bit earlier than that because who makes all the ATM machines in the world? 01:20:18.040 --> 01:20:19.720 Or a very large amount. 01:20:20.280 --> 01:20:21.300 I guess that would be Diabol? 01:20:22.320 --> 01:20:22.980 Yes, yes. 01:20:23.080 --> 01:20:24.500 Well, I mean, at least around here. 01:20:24.540 --> 01:20:27.120 I'm not sure if it's the same down by you. 01:20:27.220 --> 01:20:31.860 But if you look at your ATM machine, you'll see a Diabol, look for a Diabol trademark. 01:20:31.860 --> 01:20:39.240 Yeah, I think it's almost the same in the private sector, but it goes a little bit – in the public sector, it's like, well, we're lazy. 01:20:39.340 --> 01:20:40.040 We don't do any work. 01:20:40.100 --> 01:20:41.080 We'll just copy what you did. 01:20:41.140 --> 01:20:45.580 In the private sector, it's more, here, I'll give you season tickets to the Knicks if you buy our software. 01:20:45.680 --> 01:20:46.720 Okay, that works too. 01:20:48.960 --> 01:20:50.160 I'll give you some kickback. 01:20:50.900 --> 01:20:51.300 Wait a minute. 01:20:51.320 --> 01:20:52.420 Who wants to see the Knicks? 01:20:52.900 --> 01:20:54.720 Yeah, even people in New York don't want to see the Knicks. 01:20:54.820 --> 01:20:56.100 Oh, man, I'm going to get hate mail. 01:20:56.560 --> 01:20:56.940 Damn it. 01:20:56.940 --> 01:20:57.420 Oh, well. 01:20:58.080 --> 01:21:00.880 No, no, I think we'll have a lot of people agreeing with you. 01:21:02.580 --> 01:21:03.760 Let's not get into this topic. 01:21:03.820 --> 01:21:04.100 Exactly. 01:21:04.240 --> 01:21:05.320 Because I can rant about this. 01:21:05.500 --> 01:21:08.260 I mean, just the car wrecks that are in the Knicks right now. 01:21:08.300 --> 01:21:10.800 To go back to the main topic, because I'm pretty much done with the documentary. 01:21:10.920 --> 01:21:12.520 I think that's a pretty good summary of the whole thing. 01:21:12.520 --> 01:21:15.220 But you made a good point earlier about it's not new. 01:21:15.420 --> 01:21:16.600 I mean, this has been around for a while. 01:21:17.060 --> 01:21:20.620 And I think you said this, but it's certainly worth reemphasizing. 01:21:20.800 --> 01:21:22.520 There's nothing wrong with it necessarily. 01:21:22.680 --> 01:21:23.380 It's very helpful. 01:21:23.500 --> 01:21:24.740 It helps things go faster. 01:21:24.740 --> 01:21:33.620 And truthfully, if there's another pet peeve of mine in there, truthfully, I'd rather take a little time and hand count them if you have to. 01:21:33.700 --> 01:21:35.440 That's always an option to do something manually. 01:21:36.220 --> 01:21:40.820 And if it's more accurate and it'll get it right, I mean, certainly there's room for corruption there too. 01:21:40.820 --> 01:21:41.540 I'm not naive. 01:21:41.960 --> 01:21:49.300 But if it means getting it right and spending a week to hand count them and report them all in and armored car the results or whatever it takes, I'm all for that. 01:21:49.380 --> 01:21:53.940 I'd rather have it accurate than have all this controversy and bullshit, because then people harbor resentment for life. 01:21:53.940 --> 01:21:58.000 And that's not the guy I voted for and he's not my president and all this other stuff. 01:21:58.120 --> 01:22:02.980 And it just is a bad thing on society in general that all stemmed from something that could have been prevented and could have been helped. 01:22:03.380 --> 01:22:04.700 Do it manually if you have to. 01:22:04.760 --> 01:22:15.520 If anything, I'm going to go back and point a finger at the media a little bit, because the media, you know why they rush it and they try to get all these things done electronically and get it all counted and they close the polls at 7 o'clock and turn people away? 01:22:15.520 --> 01:22:16.300 You know why? 01:22:16.460 --> 01:22:18.620 Because it makes good television that night to find out who won. 01:22:19.380 --> 01:22:20.000 That's why. 01:22:20.200 --> 01:22:21.340 That's one of the reasons why. 01:22:21.880 --> 01:22:22.900 But anyway, that's the – 01:22:22.900 --> 01:22:25.020 Closing the polls and everything. 01:22:25.160 --> 01:22:27.040 It's just more of, you know, okay, we're closing the poll. 01:22:27.320 --> 01:22:28.840 It's been open for 12 hours, people. 01:22:28.900 --> 01:22:30.540 If you haven't voted yet, you know, tough nogies. 01:22:30.660 --> 01:22:31.080 Oh, true. 01:22:31.160 --> 01:22:32.080 If you're going to come in, absolutely. 01:22:32.620 --> 01:22:37.720 But, like, I mean, going back to what you're saying, oh, you know, I want to make it, you know, hand counted. 01:22:38.020 --> 01:22:40.340 Well, okay, yeah, that's wonderful. 01:22:40.340 --> 01:22:43.460 But you're probably going to make a lot more of the seats than the computer did. 01:22:44.380 --> 01:22:44.840 Well, I don't know. 01:22:44.900 --> 01:22:45.600 I guess it's available. 01:22:45.900 --> 01:22:49.180 If that's the case, why is that the backup process? 01:22:49.220 --> 01:22:51.160 If we want to do a recount, it's a manual recount. 01:22:52.160 --> 01:22:52.700 I don't know. 01:22:53.200 --> 01:22:54.820 Potentially, potentially it could be more. 01:22:54.820 --> 01:23:00.000 Because when you have, you know, okay, well, I mean, let's go back to the Scantron machines. 01:23:00.100 --> 01:23:06.660 You have, you know, some user who's never actually, you know, done a standardized test in his or her life. 01:23:06.660 --> 01:23:09.920 You know, they're from – let's say they're from Poland or – actually, I'm not going to say Poland. 01:23:09.920 --> 01:23:12.480 Well, let's say they're from Slovakia and they don't, you know – 01:23:12.480 --> 01:23:12.900 Kazakhstan. 01:23:14.340 --> 01:23:14.660 Kazakhstan. 01:23:14.920 --> 01:23:15.300 There we go. 01:23:15.360 --> 01:23:16.320 They've never voted before. 01:23:16.580 --> 01:23:17.960 And they have their American citizenship. 01:23:18.560 --> 01:23:21.580 And they see this thing to fill out and they don't read the instructions right. 01:23:21.640 --> 01:23:22.960 They don't speak English too well. 01:23:23.000 --> 01:23:24.120 They have people in the polls. 01:23:24.120 --> 01:23:27.660 And instead of filling in – yeah, and so – well, instead of – he doesn't ask. 01:23:27.760 --> 01:23:28.700 He just does it. 01:23:28.700 --> 01:23:29.980 Well, that's his problem. 01:23:30.280 --> 01:23:31.360 That's his or her problem. 01:23:31.360 --> 01:23:32.440 I don't have any pity for that. 01:23:32.440 --> 01:23:38.240 But, yeah, but at the same time, he just, like, you know, makes a small little mark in the hole instead of filling it all up. 01:23:38.240 --> 01:23:42.200 Yeah, and, I mean, you know, that's going to be – it's not going to count that vote in the recount. 01:23:42.360 --> 01:23:47.580 I mean, you'll notice that when you're in a hand thing, but when you're doing this electronically, there's no way to recount that. 01:23:47.840 --> 01:23:48.880 Ignorance is no excuse. 01:23:49.120 --> 01:23:49.800 Ignorance is no excuse. 01:23:49.800 --> 01:23:50.520 Yeah, I mean – 01:23:50.520 --> 01:23:53.280 And that's what all the problem was back with the hanging chads debacle. 01:23:53.420 --> 01:23:55.040 Some people didn't punch the chads out of the way. 01:23:55.120 --> 01:23:56.120 I mean – 01:23:56.120 --> 01:24:04.740 When my father was basically the political junkie that got me started on all of this, was when I voted to him, he always used to tell me, 01:24:04.820 --> 01:24:10.800 always make sure when you take out your butterfly ballot that everything is empty because it won't count that. 01:24:10.800 --> 01:24:18.540 And, I mean, you know, going back to where it was, we were just looking at it going, God, we know all this stuff already. 01:24:18.680 --> 01:24:19.840 I mean, people don't know. 01:24:20.520 --> 01:24:24.520 Well, you know, to a certain extent, that's, you know, there's lots of instructions. 01:24:24.740 --> 01:24:26.720 They send out mail instructions ahead of time. 01:24:26.780 --> 01:24:27.660 You can do your research. 01:24:27.760 --> 01:24:31.760 If you take it seriously, then you won't make those mistakes. 01:24:31.860 --> 01:24:35.620 And if you do make those mistakes, you didn't take it seriously enough, and I don't pity you losing your vote. 01:24:35.760 --> 01:24:36.240 I don't. 01:24:36.240 --> 01:24:37.500 I just – I'm sorry. 01:24:37.580 --> 01:24:37.980 I don't. 01:24:38.680 --> 01:24:40.960 I mean, I feel sad at the same time. 01:24:41.120 --> 01:24:41.220 Sad, yeah. 01:24:41.220 --> 01:24:44.160 But at the same point, I just go – yeah, I mean, it's sad that you didn't get the vote. 01:24:44.240 --> 01:24:45.980 It's not that you didn't get to do in the process and everything. 01:24:46.080 --> 01:24:48.400 But at the same time, you just want to go up to them and go, what's that wrong with you? 01:24:48.520 --> 01:24:51.420 Yeah, and there are people there to help you, and there are signs explaining it. 01:24:51.420 --> 01:24:55.280 And the directions on the damn screen says, punch out completely, and come on. 01:24:55.800 --> 01:24:56.720 Plus, you know what? 01:24:56.760 --> 01:24:58.000 If you're voting, you should know the language. 01:24:58.600 --> 01:25:00.460 But that's a whole other political topic. 01:25:00.800 --> 01:25:02.060 So let's get off of that. 01:25:03.020 --> 01:25:06.220 Okay, let's just stop right here because we're actually delving into – 01:25:06.240 --> 01:25:08.160 kind of more political spectrum here. 01:25:08.180 --> 01:25:08.660 Exactly, exactly. 01:25:08.860 --> 01:25:09.760 So let's back off. 01:25:09.860 --> 01:25:13.320 But yeah, the whole point being, you know, there's nothing wrong with electronic voting. 01:25:13.380 --> 01:25:14.560 It just needs to be more secure. 01:25:14.640 --> 01:25:16.340 And I think that is the global message here. 01:25:16.900 --> 01:25:22.420 Even the overly dramatic HBO documentary, I do think that was their overall message, 01:25:22.560 --> 01:25:24.020 was that there are problems in this. 01:25:24.100 --> 01:25:28.480 You're privatizing something, and by doing so, it's protected under trade secrets, 01:25:28.580 --> 01:25:29.800 and no one can ever view the source. 01:25:29.920 --> 01:25:31.360 No auditing can be done on it. 01:25:31.360 --> 01:25:33.240 And we're taking these people's word for it. 01:25:33.620 --> 01:25:39.080 And in their opinion, not mine, but in the documentary, they basically inferred that these people are liars. 01:25:39.080 --> 01:25:43.160 They've caught them in several lies or several mistruths, however you want to call it. 01:25:43.200 --> 01:25:46.080 I'm just going to call it liars, what they're insinuating and getting across. 01:25:46.680 --> 01:25:50.600 And we're supposed to trust these liars to be telling us, yes, we fixed it. 01:25:50.640 --> 01:25:52.640 Yes, it's secure without letting anyone audit it. 01:25:52.640 --> 01:25:58.160 But that's just not, you know, that was the overall review of the documentary. 01:25:58.320 --> 01:26:01.040 So take that for what you're worth, form your own decisions on it. 01:26:01.080 --> 01:26:03.980 But certainly if you do have HBO or can get it or know a friend that has it, 01:26:04.120 --> 01:26:05.480 it's worth going to someone's house. 01:26:05.560 --> 01:26:06.500 It's an hour and a half long. 01:26:06.860 --> 01:26:08.600 Go over to your buddy's house and watch it. 01:26:09.300 --> 01:26:09.860 TiVo it. 01:26:10.420 --> 01:26:14.440 You know, I can't say go find it on a website, torrent site, something like that. 01:26:14.460 --> 01:26:15.700 But, you know, watch the thing. 01:26:15.700 --> 01:26:17.820 It's definitely worth watching, and it was well done. 01:26:17.820 --> 01:26:22.760 And then I do give it two thumbs up on the stank scale of watchworthiness. 01:26:23.200 --> 01:26:24.360 How's that for making up a word? 01:26:25.560 --> 01:26:27.340 Well, that's a stank and e-bird. 01:26:28.660 --> 01:26:34.400 That was a very, you know, that word was very enjoyful that you just made up. 01:26:35.060 --> 01:26:35.460 Enjoyful. 01:26:35.540 --> 01:26:36.260 Thank you very much. 01:26:38.220 --> 01:26:38.940 Isn't that right? 01:26:38.940 --> 01:26:39.200 All right. 01:26:39.200 --> 01:26:40.840 We're kind of actually running out of time here. 01:26:41.280 --> 01:26:41.960 Oh, man. 01:26:42.040 --> 01:26:45.440 Did we cover any topics we missed that we didn't want to about e-voting in general? 01:26:46.340 --> 01:26:47.620 I think we did a pretty good job. 01:26:47.780 --> 01:26:54.840 I think we mostly just concentrated on the documentary, but I think we brought up the topics that we wanted to cover and, you know, at least got the word out. 01:26:54.980 --> 01:27:03.380 Because, I mean, I really want to actually see this documentary now, and I think a lot of people in our listening audience would like to go see it or see it, listen to it, whatever. 01:27:03.620 --> 01:27:06.300 I sincerely do suggest people watch it. 01:27:06.500 --> 01:27:08.020 It was really, really well done. 01:27:08.020 --> 01:27:13.560 The only other thing, I'll now make this quick because I know we're running low, and I can summarize this. 01:27:13.560 --> 01:27:24.540 If these are the problems we're having with e-voting at this stage of the game, hardware and physically going in, does anybody listening really think we're ready for voting on the global interweb yet? 01:27:24.740 --> 01:27:25.460 I mean, come on. 01:27:26.280 --> 01:27:26.880 Come on. 01:27:27.420 --> 01:27:27.860 Seriously. 01:27:28.000 --> 01:27:30.660 Do people actually think we're ready for voting on the global interweb yet? 01:27:30.940 --> 01:27:34.260 Because that's going back to my two rocks theory. 01:27:34.400 --> 01:27:36.220 You know, I'll take two rocks, and I'll vote that way. 01:27:36.300 --> 01:27:36.680 Thank you. 01:27:36.800 --> 01:27:38.220 Exactly, and that's what my point is. 01:27:38.220 --> 01:27:49.040 If we can't even get this part of electronic voting right, let alone voting over the global interweb, there's so many more potentials for damage, especially if people are going to be a closed source and all these arbitrary and, yeah. 01:27:49.160 --> 01:27:51.560 I just don't see that happening anytime soon. 01:27:52.120 --> 01:27:55.280 So take that in perspective. 01:27:55.340 --> 01:27:59.460 If we can't even get this right, they don't even need to be thinking about online voting yet. 01:27:59.460 --> 01:28:06.920 And I kind of was going to go into some stories about online voting at, like, individual websites, you know, like, what was it, podcastalley.com. 01:28:06.960 --> 01:28:07.880 I had some good fun with them. 01:28:07.940 --> 01:28:09.120 They had a voting system up. 01:28:09.660 --> 01:28:16.660 And I put BinRev up to the number one radio show on the site, you know, within minutes because it had vulnerabilities, and it was easily scripted. 01:28:17.080 --> 01:28:21.200 And I hammered the thing out, and we jumped up to the top of their podcast listing for a day. 01:28:21.960 --> 01:28:26.580 Of course, I emailed the webmaster and told him about the vulnerability and worked with him to fix it. 01:28:26.580 --> 01:28:29.620 Now he's fixed it, and it's not vulnerable anymore. 01:28:29.880 --> 01:28:34.080 So, I mean, that's just a podcasting website. 01:28:34.900 --> 01:28:39.820 We can't treat our vote for our elected officials the same way. 01:28:40.980 --> 01:28:42.000 So I guess it's – I don't know. 01:28:42.020 --> 01:28:43.580 I think that's all the points really to talk about. 01:28:43.700 --> 01:28:44.780 I think that's all I've got anyway. 01:28:46.520 --> 01:28:47.120 All right. 01:28:47.580 --> 01:28:48.940 Well, do you have any announcements to make? 01:28:48.980 --> 01:28:49.780 Because I sure as heck don't. 01:28:50.540 --> 01:28:50.940 Announcements? 01:28:51.220 --> 01:28:52.900 I think we did everything up top. 01:28:53.080 --> 01:28:55.640 The mentor program is still going really well, which is good. 01:28:55.640 --> 01:28:57.240 So my email mentioned that. 01:28:57.360 --> 01:29:00.880 Send your email to mentorship at binrev.com. 01:29:01.540 --> 01:29:06.280 And I guess if we're at that point in the show, I guess I can segue into Shouts to Verbal for working on that. 01:29:06.460 --> 01:29:07.940 And Kyle L., I think, has been helping out. 01:29:08.000 --> 01:29:12.340 Tom, some of whom you may be hearing from in the future, to Savant. 01:29:13.160 --> 01:29:13.820 I don't know. 01:29:13.880 --> 01:29:15.860 Zero DB down there, vegging out. 01:29:17.140 --> 01:29:17.740 I don't know. 01:29:17.960 --> 01:29:18.560 That's about it. 01:29:19.760 --> 01:29:21.400 Now I'll send Shouts out to Savant, too. 01:29:21.400 --> 01:29:24.660 And I'll send Shouts out to T-Mobile for their MDA, which is pretty good. 01:29:24.780 --> 01:29:26.440 And Q-Tec, that's who people makes it. 01:29:26.720 --> 01:29:27.660 Pretty bitchin' phone. 01:29:27.920 --> 01:29:32.500 I'm locked into freaking Verizon for another year, year and a month, I think, before I can go. 01:29:32.500 --> 01:29:34.720 Oh, I'm locked into T-Mobile for two years. 01:29:35.020 --> 01:29:37.360 So I paid my pound of flesh, that is for sure. 01:29:37.360 --> 01:29:38.380 Yeah, yeah. 01:29:38.520 --> 01:29:44.040 Well, you know, we can always move to one of those out-of-the-way places where they don't have coverage and they'll pay. 01:29:44.100 --> 01:29:58.420 Oh, yeah, well, I was in this out-of-the-way place in Texas, short story, out-of-the-way place in Texas where my, instead of saying Verizon Wireless Network on, it just said, it didn't say roaming, but it was said, oh, man, it didn't say unknown network. 01:29:58.540 --> 01:29:59.740 It was some other message on there. 01:29:59.780 --> 01:30:00.620 Darn it, I forgot what it was. 01:30:00.660 --> 01:30:02.420 But I remember going, what the hell does that mean? 01:30:02.420 --> 01:30:09.220 Because I only had, like, two bars the whole time out in this little small town, so some carrier had a tower, but I don't know whose it was. 01:30:09.340 --> 01:30:14.620 It didn't, usually if it picks up on a singular tower, it will say, you're on a singular network, even though I'm Verizon. 01:30:15.180 --> 01:30:18.760 You know, they can piggyback, and they'll pay the roaming fees to singular for using their towers. 01:30:19.660 --> 01:30:27.040 So this one didn't say singular, it didn't say AT&T, it didn't say Verizon, it didn't say any, you know, so I don't know whose network I was on. 01:30:29.640 --> 01:30:31.780 So, no shots for you. 01:30:31.780 --> 01:30:34.320 You never know, it could have been, like, you know, Mexicano Network or something. 01:30:34.340 --> 01:30:35.820 It may have been, for all I know. 01:30:37.140 --> 01:30:38.240 Oh, yeah, and all the pay phones. 01:30:38.320 --> 01:30:40.820 Do I have time to talk about the pay phones in Mexico? 01:30:40.940 --> 01:30:43.880 No, I don't think we have time to talk about anything. 01:30:43.960 --> 01:30:44.320 All right, go. 01:30:44.940 --> 01:30:45.480 Sadly enough. 01:30:45.560 --> 01:30:47.680 All right, closing, do you have any closing music? 01:30:48.220 --> 01:30:49.160 Oh, I have a side of the week. 01:30:49.280 --> 01:30:51.160 Oh, what's side of the week? 01:30:51.740 --> 01:30:53.900 Oh, crap, hold on, I've got to go right in. 01:30:53.900 --> 01:31:08.080 The side of the week, this week for November 7th, as I stall for a second, is called RiffTracks, R-I-F-F-T-R-A-X, RiffTracks.com. 01:31:08.140 --> 01:31:10.660 Anybody knows I'm a big fan of MST3K. 01:31:10.660 --> 01:31:15.240 You can now download MST3K audio for new movies and overlay it. 01:31:15.280 --> 01:31:22.660 So if you want to watch your movie on mute and play the MP3 track of the Mystery Science Theater style jokes, RiffTracks.com. 01:31:23.640 --> 01:31:26.160 R-I-F-F-T-R-A-X. 01:31:26.220 --> 01:31:26.660 You got it. 01:31:28.260 --> 01:31:28.600 Okay. 01:31:28.720 --> 01:31:28.900 Good job. 01:31:28.900 --> 01:31:29.440 Oh, that sounds cool. 01:31:29.480 --> 01:31:30.360 I'll have to actually check that out. 01:31:30.400 --> 01:31:31.060 That sounds interesting. 01:31:31.100 --> 01:31:32.060 Not politically related. 01:31:33.500 --> 01:31:34.220 Closing music? 01:31:34.220 --> 01:31:37.460 You'll find out in a moment and check out our link. 01:31:37.740 --> 01:31:39.840 I never do closing music. 01:31:40.040 --> 01:31:44.180 It was more of like, we were talking earlier before the show, like, oh, it's for closing music tonight. 01:31:44.240 --> 01:31:45.880 I'm like, I didn't remember. 01:31:46.120 --> 01:31:46.420 Damn it. 01:31:47.840 --> 01:31:48.360 All right. 01:31:48.520 --> 01:31:49.680 So, hey. 01:31:49.860 --> 01:31:52.980 It's something really cool and it's going to be a surprise and you're all going to love it. 01:31:53.040 --> 01:31:53.780 Yeah, sure they are. 01:31:55.100 --> 01:31:56.660 Anyway, thanks for having me on the show again. 01:31:56.680 --> 01:31:58.140 It's fun being on this side of the phone. 01:31:58.200 --> 01:31:58.600 Oh, yeah. 01:31:58.660 --> 01:31:59.300 Thanks a lot, man. 01:31:59.460 --> 01:32:00.440 I'll send shouts out to you, too. 01:32:00.520 --> 01:32:01.240 Shouts for coming on the show. 01:32:01.260 --> 01:32:01.760 Oh, wow, please. 01:32:02.960 --> 01:32:03.280 Yeah. 01:32:03.920 --> 01:32:05.440 And shouts to my friend Jack, by the way. 01:32:05.580 --> 01:32:05.760 Okay. 01:32:05.900 --> 01:32:06.280 That's all. 01:32:08.480 --> 01:32:09.460 Last minute shout outs. 01:32:09.480 --> 01:32:10.080 What can you do? 01:32:11.120 --> 01:32:12.020 Yeah, you know, shout outs. 01:32:12.140 --> 01:32:14.360 It should be something like to have, like, an entire show of shout outs. 01:32:14.680 --> 01:32:17.140 Boy, that would be the worst episode ever. 01:32:18.200 --> 01:32:19.040 Well, it'd be interesting. 01:32:19.180 --> 01:32:21.420 You know, have, like, fun anecdotes and all the little short things. 01:32:21.500 --> 01:32:25.460 You know, shouts out to so-and-so from Hope2k4 who helped me change my tire. 01:32:25.620 --> 01:32:25.840 I don't know. 01:32:27.520 --> 01:32:29.460 Shouts to the guy that hung out with us at White Castle. 01:32:29.580 --> 01:32:31.120 And for everybody there, you know what I'm talking about. 01:32:31.840 --> 01:32:32.800 That was crazy. 01:32:33.280 --> 01:32:34.880 All right. 01:32:35.760 --> 01:32:37.980 So I guess that's kind of wrapping up the show. 01:32:38.140 --> 01:32:40.200 And I guess we'll see you next week. 01:32:40.280 --> 01:32:41.040 Same hack time? 01:32:42.100 --> 01:32:44.220 Same hack channel? 01:32:45.420 --> 01:32:46.180 I think so. 01:32:46.180 --> 01:32:46.480 Yeah. 01:32:46.480 --> 01:32:59.520 I think so. 01:32:59.520 --> 01:33:29.500 Thank you. 01:33:29.520 --> 01:33:59.500 Thank you. 01:33:59.520 --> 01:34:29.500 Thank you. 01:34:29.520 --> 01:34:59.500 Thank you. 01:34:59.520 --> 01:35:29.500 Thank you. 01:35:29.520 --> 01:35:59.500 Thank you. 01:35:59.520 --> 01:36:29.500 Thank you. 01:36:29.520 --> 01:36:59.500 Thank you. 01:36:59.520 --> 01:37:29.500 Thank you. 01:37:29.520 --> 01:37:59.500 Thank you. 01:37:59.520 --> 01:38:29.500 Thank you.