WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:09.460 This is dedicated to all the hackers and the crackers, to the hackers and the crackers. 00:09.760 --> 00:15.520 I see in binary, I speak source code, step on my toes, I'll post a million jpegs of you 00:15.520 --> 00:20.780 and a fag pwned, in your digital stance getting firewalled ho, cause I'm riding the net in 00:20.780 --> 00:26.440 my six-fold, I was a dick with my 56, now with my cable I'm able to get that stable, 00:26.440 --> 00:31.740 on the out, my name is Ace and I'm a Leo, on the digital highway, my name is Neo and 00:31.740 --> 00:37.240 I'm a hero, in a flash, I'll screw you on burning dreamcast, you need some ISO, let me through 00:37.240 --> 00:42.680 my hard drive rifle, our exchange you could never stifle, in a digital hug, you just caught 00:42.680 --> 00:48.940 the love bug, I bootlegged your CD, I caused a fight between Un and Jay-Z, your CG, it's 00:48.940 --> 00:53.460 all gonna be free, whether we take it by force or we take it nicely, you feel that rattling 00:53.460 --> 00:58.140 your phones, when I tell you we just hacked out Jones, and NASDAQ leaves you flat on your 00:58.140 --> 01:03.440 back, cause I am he who loves to hack and crack, cause I am he who loves to hack and crack. 01:03.940 --> 01:11.160 This is dedicated to the hackers and the crackers, serial codes, source codes, ISOs, RANs, SIFs, 01:11.160 --> 01:14.200 SIFs, this is dedicated to the hackers and the crack. 01:14.340 --> 01:20.240 Welcome to Binary Revolution Radio episode, I think 195, I really don't know that either, 01:20.240 --> 01:27.780 last one I had recorded was 194, so I think that's where we left off, so 195 today is, 01:27.880 --> 01:35.680 let's see, you're hearing this June 5th, Tuesday June 5th, 2007, Not Theory is on the phone 01:35.680 --> 01:40.020 with us for the episode this week, I'm at the house, what's up? 01:40.020 --> 01:46.540 In the hazy, and if we can actually get through this episode without totally cutting up and 01:46.540 --> 01:52.600 ruining the entire thing, as we've done how many times in the last 10 minutes, let's see, 01:52.700 --> 01:57.020 let's do some housekeeping, got any Bell's Mind housekeeping? I noticed the mysterious circle 01:57.020 --> 01:59.980 that we mentioned on the last episode has disappeared. 02:01.080 --> 02:05.820 Yeah, I don't really want to talk about it too much, it's top secret, but the people who figured 02:05.820 --> 02:08.820 out the Easter egg, they all know what's up. 02:09.100 --> 02:13.080 Alright, well, I guess that, we'll leave it at that, you got any other updates to Bell's 02:13.080 --> 02:13.680 Mind to talk about? 02:16.220 --> 02:22.320 Nope, things are back online, they had a little hit at downtown, somebody contacted me actually 02:22.320 --> 02:28.020 recently, just a couple days ago, asking how the hell to parse out all this crazy JavaScript 02:28.020 --> 02:33.060 content that's a site that's now, ignore all the JavaScript, if you're trying to scrape 02:33.060 --> 02:38.600 stuff from Bell's Mind, basically, do an NPA search, and find the links off of there, 02:38.720 --> 02:43.060 all of the links are still straight HTML, eventually there will be an API, if you're interested in 02:43.060 --> 02:47.800 it, email me, otherwise, keep scraping the site, it's no big deal, do it as much as you 02:47.800 --> 02:48.020 like. 02:48.680 --> 02:53.900 And speaking of contacting you, there are right ways and wrong ways, why don't you yell at 02:53.900 --> 02:57.900 everybody about the right ways to contact you with information or questions about Bell's 02:57.900 --> 02:58.180 Mind? 02:58.180 --> 03:03.480 The wrong way to contact me is to not contact me and ask somebody else what's wrong with 03:03.480 --> 03:05.260 Bell's Mind, that doesn't work. 03:05.480 --> 03:06.620 As in the forums? 03:07.400 --> 03:07.840 What's that? 03:08.040 --> 03:09.800 As in posting to the forums? 03:10.640 --> 03:15.160 Yeah, for anybody who doesn't know, I realize that I'm kind of like an absentee hacktor at 03:15.160 --> 03:19.560 this point, because I pretty much just work all the time, so if you don't know me, I'm 03:19.560 --> 03:27.100 the guy who runs Bell's Mind, so email me, N, the letter N, theory, at Bell's Mind dot 03:27.100 --> 03:32.140 net, and if you put Bell's Mind in the subject line, I will actually read your email and 03:32.140 --> 03:35.760 reply to it, and if I promise that I'll do something the same day, and I'll get to it 03:35.760 --> 03:36.700 like four or five days later. 03:37.160 --> 03:41.120 Yeah, you'll reply, you'll lie your ass off, but you will actually reply. 03:41.920 --> 03:45.920 No, the two people that emailed me, one guy had a crazy long handle that I can't remember, 03:46.080 --> 03:49.700 but I'm going to post some of this code on the site soon, so you'll all know who he 03:49.700 --> 03:49.920 is. 03:49.920 --> 03:55.120 I got back there pretty quickly, and I still have a pretty good response, he's having some 03:55.120 --> 03:58.700 account problems, but if you're having account problems, if you can't register, can't sign 03:58.700 --> 03:59.760 in, let me know. 03:59.880 --> 04:01.800 If you can't get to the site, let me know. 04:02.380 --> 04:07.960 If you can't hear Binary Revolution Radio, then you're pretty much SOL, so let me know. 04:08.860 --> 04:13.180 I guess if you can't hear Binary Revolution Radio, let me know, but that doesn't make any 04:13.180 --> 04:21.420 sense either, but anyway, let's see, what else in the housekeeping, obviously, we had 04:21.420 --> 04:26.200 another few weeks hiatus there, I was out of town for vacation, and we are pretty much 04:26.200 --> 04:29.960 at the point where I'm the only one doing the show these days, nobody else has time 04:29.960 --> 04:37.140 or is able to fill in and do the show, so we are not weekly these days, we are, whenever 04:37.140 --> 04:41.280 I can get a show out, that's pretty much all I can tell you right now, planned ahead 04:41.280 --> 04:46.400 for this, and as usual, plans fall through for one reason or another, so unfortunately, 04:46.560 --> 04:50.620 there's nothing I can do about it, always took pride in having the show come out regularly 04:50.620 --> 04:55.800 and every week, but just not going to happen, so I'm just telling you up front, disclosing 04:55.800 --> 04:57.240 to you that it's not going to happen. 04:57.340 --> 05:00.620 Speaking of things that aren't going to happen, in Bell's mind, where's Freak Factor? 05:02.020 --> 05:06.380 I don't know, it's pretty much the same place that like eight episodes of Binary Revolution 05:06.380 --> 05:08.180 are, but nowhere. 05:08.180 --> 05:12.220 And they're recorded and just haven't been released yet? 05:13.420 --> 05:18.700 Oh yeah, yeah, we did some Secret Bell's mind, Freak Factor recording, and nobody knows 05:18.700 --> 05:23.940 about it, but the tapes, as they were, were lost, so. 05:24.180 --> 05:28.020 There are actually some recordings on your box, but that's a whole other story altogether. 05:28.240 --> 05:28.380 Yeah. 05:28.380 --> 05:32.520 There are actually a lot of recordings, believe it or not, some people have recorded radio 05:32.520 --> 05:36.680 shows on there from some interface I set up a long time ago, and they're still sitting 05:36.680 --> 05:36.860 there. 05:36.900 --> 05:40.640 I don't think they know how to get to them anymore, because they never cleaned them out, 05:40.780 --> 05:44.660 so I don't know what the hell's up with that, but anyway, whatever. 05:44.660 --> 05:45.880 There you go. 05:46.240 --> 05:50.260 Well, as for the main topic this week, I'm not even sure if we're going to have time 05:50.260 --> 05:56.420 to get to a main topic anyway, so I will mention it later if we have time in the show, but because 05:56.420 --> 06:02.460 of the long hiatus, and because of the fact that I purposely saved a few emails from the 06:02.460 --> 06:07.300 last episode that you and I did, where the topic was Java, I purposely saved some emails 06:07.300 --> 06:11.620 from then, and we've had some other emails since then, so this may end up being an old 06:11.620 --> 06:18.820 email show, a Java redux, Java part two, a redo, if you will, and if we have some more 06:18.820 --> 06:20.280 time, we'll go into a main topic later. 06:20.340 --> 06:23.240 We do have one, but we may just sit on it until the next episode. 06:23.760 --> 06:27.600 So, that being said, let's do some email. 06:37.300 --> 06:54.420 Okay, email for this week, which is, there's quite a bit of it, so, and quite a bit of 06:54.420 --> 06:58.980 it's very long, so not theory, I'm going to just basically, let's go ahead and set a ground 06:58.980 --> 07:03.960 rule right now, that we're just going to start reading it, and interrupt, jump in any time 07:03.960 --> 07:08.420 when there's a point we want to respond to, because if we read the whole email, and wait 07:08.420 --> 07:12.160 to respond at the end, we're going to forget things, they're really long and detailed this 07:12.160 --> 07:16.040 time, which is very cool, actually, it's very good, so let me just start reading, and you 07:16.040 --> 07:21.180 just yell and interrupt, and, I don't know, scream out Armageddon, that's our safe word, 07:21.240 --> 07:24.080 you can scream out Armageddon and interrupt me if you want to add a point to this. 07:24.840 --> 07:25.360 All righty. 07:25.440 --> 07:32.260 All right, first email this week comes from, we're going to call him KG, because he dropped 07:32.260 --> 07:37.140 his docs, I don't know if it's real docs, or if he probably is okay with us reading 07:37.140 --> 07:39.500 it, but we're going to call him KJ, did I say KG? 07:39.580 --> 07:42.360 KJ, just to be safe. 07:42.920 --> 07:49.040 KJ says, I think that this discussion was a bit loose, and he was referring to our Java 07:49.040 --> 07:52.100 episode, I think that this discussion was a bit loose. 07:52.100 --> 07:57.340 I hate Java's guts, is too complex, verbose, and convoluted language. 07:57.920 --> 08:02.140 However, when you said about write once, run everywhere, I think you could have approached 08:02.140 --> 08:08.900 it better, I'm going to correct this as we go along, maybe KJ could approach his English 08:08.900 --> 08:13.540 better, but, I mean, you got stuck on the write once, run everywhere, as long as you 08:13.540 --> 08:14.220 have a VM. 08:15.380 --> 08:16.260 Did I get stuck on that? 08:16.340 --> 08:18.240 I know I brought that up, did I get stuck on that? 08:18.940 --> 08:22.880 No, I don't think so, I mean, we definitely brought it up, but I'm, I don't know, that's 08:22.880 --> 08:25.520 the big deal about Java, there's really not much else to talk about. 08:25.520 --> 08:26.580 Well, true. 08:27.020 --> 08:28.900 I think this is very logical. 08:30.020 --> 08:31.800 I guess he means to say illogical. 08:31.880 --> 08:33.380 I think this is very illogical. 08:33.880 --> 08:35.960 I mean, you can say the same thing about Flash. 08:36.160 --> 08:42.060 You write a SWF once, and it will run on everywhere, as long as you have the Flash player. 08:42.440 --> 08:45.580 So the platform is independent, which makes your code portable. 08:46.380 --> 08:53.120 You can say the same about, and HTML is a write once, run everywhere. 08:53.120 --> 08:56.160 Armageddon, Armageddon, I disagree. 08:56.420 --> 08:57.380 As long as you have a browser. 08:57.900 --> 09:04.800 Now, Flash, on the one hand, yeah, it's write once, and it runs the same, almost the same, 09:05.320 --> 09:05.740 everywhere. 09:06.160 --> 09:07.900 Same with Java, runs very, very similar. 09:08.060 --> 09:15.440 HTML, there are no sets that you could possibly be safe on, but HTML is different. 09:15.440 --> 09:19.220 It's different in one version of Firefox, so HTML doesn't really fit that. 09:19.220 --> 09:24.260 But I thought we had mentioned that Flash was very similar to Java, and that you could 09:24.260 --> 09:27.160 write it, and it would look very similar on most architectures. 09:27.660 --> 09:31.480 Well, I think I even brought up, I think my example was the same thing with .NET. 09:31.620 --> 09:36.400 You have to have the .NET framework installed to be able to use all that stuff as well. 09:37.120 --> 09:38.820 So, I mean, I think that's a fair comparison. 09:38.920 --> 09:40.200 I think we definitely talked about that. 09:40.280 --> 09:43.200 Maybe he wrote the email before he listened to the full episode or something, I don't know. 09:43.300 --> 09:44.900 But we definitely brought some of that up. 09:44.900 --> 09:48.260 Now, I'm going to actually defend him a little bit and play devil's advocate. 09:48.260 --> 09:50.900 Actually, no, I kind of, well, let me see what you think about this. 09:50.940 --> 09:58.640 When he says HTML write once, run everywhere, if you use HTML 3.0, 4.0 standards and no custom 09:58.640 --> 10:01.200 browser markups and stuff like that, do you still disagree? 10:02.400 --> 10:04.080 No, yeah, I don't really think so. 10:04.220 --> 10:07.100 I think that some things do render slightly differently. 10:07.780 --> 10:11.600 I mean, if you did everything like absolute positioning and all that kind of stuff, yeah, it does look 10:11.600 --> 10:17.140 the same pretty much everywhere, but I'm sure that there's some quirk in some browser that 10:17.140 --> 10:18.560 just makes it non-match up. 10:19.560 --> 10:24.440 But you know what, HTML, HTML and Java and Flash, they're very different things. 10:24.560 --> 10:28.960 Java and Flash are much closer to each other than HTML because there's no, there's no virtual 10:28.960 --> 10:30.380 machine in HTML. 10:30.640 --> 10:33.160 Like, it's a format that you parse and you display it. 10:33.380 --> 10:33.700 Right. 10:33.800 --> 10:37.120 But the whole virtual machine thing is very different. 10:37.120 --> 10:42.620 Well, right, well, it's right there in the definition, HTML is a markup language, so it's 10:42.620 --> 10:43.780 interpreted on the fly. 10:44.460 --> 10:50.640 All these other things are either pre-compiled, depending on, again, what flavor of Java and 10:50.640 --> 10:54.320 Applet and all that other stuff we want, we'll back off of that because we're going to talk 10:54.320 --> 10:57.000 about it later, or it's compiled on the fly. 10:58.460 --> 10:58.900 Right. 10:59.100 --> 11:04.520 You know, so it's like, not compare, it's not, I don't know, it's not a good comparison 11:04.520 --> 11:06.320 with HTML as far as that goes anyway. 11:06.320 --> 11:06.960 I don't know. 11:08.100 --> 11:12.660 Ah, let's see, so, um, um, um, um, um, um, where was I? 11:12.700 --> 11:21.020 Okay, just as HTML3.x dump developers start using Java, I guess dumb developers, that's 11:21.020 --> 11:27.540 an irony statement, ironic statement right there, dump developers start using Java and encapsulating 11:27.540 --> 11:29.460 on a Windows-specific environment. 11:30.000 --> 11:35.300 So a Java app will be on a exe installer, which makes it unusable in Linux. 11:35.300 --> 11:39.040 This happens on clients such as TalkShoe. 11:39.460 --> 11:43.780 The installer is useless to Linux, so to make it work, you have to install it to Windows and 11:43.780 --> 11:48.140 then move the installation folder to Linux, and only then Java on Linux can run the client. 11:48.540 --> 11:54.220 Many banks also have some crappy IE-specific web applications which won't work on the Linux. 11:54.220 --> 11:57.660 Now wait a second, wait a second. 11:57.740 --> 11:59.260 He's talking about IE-specific. 11:59.440 --> 12:04.500 Is he talking about, like, IE and ActiveX application? 12:04.700 --> 12:06.100 Like, that's not Java. 12:06.200 --> 12:07.340 That's not what we're talking about here. 12:07.340 --> 12:10.860 Right, I, I, he's not really giving us enough information. 12:10.860 --> 12:16.960 I'm assuming he means Java apps written specifically for Internet Explorer, possibly using the IE libraries 12:16.960 --> 12:18.620 and displays libraries or something? 12:18.740 --> 12:19.480 I don't, I don't know. 12:19.580 --> 12:23.460 Maybe, maybe I'm too much of a Java dupe, but I didn't really think you could make an applet 12:23.460 --> 12:27.080 that, that ran on IE if it's run on Firefox. 12:27.080 --> 12:30.080 But, I've just never seen that before. 12:30.240 --> 12:31.960 I honestly don't know the answer to that either. 12:32.320 --> 12:36.520 And that's, the whole thing is there's so much to Java that's, there's so much overwhelming 12:36.520 --> 12:38.420 information, I just don't know what to believe. 12:38.580 --> 12:41.380 So much conflicting information too, and I think we're going to find that out through some 12:41.380 --> 12:43.200 of these upcoming emails. 12:44.360 --> 12:51.180 Let's see, to go on with KJ's email here, on the Mono versus .NET versus Java, well, Mono 12:51.180 --> 12:53.960 has some philosophical goals to justify its existence. 12:53.960 --> 12:57.620 What is true is that Mono is more like a framework. 12:58.160 --> 13:03.680 You can run Java in Mono, as well as other languages like Perl, Python, C++, etc. 13:05.380 --> 13:13.400 The so-called Windows Forms versus GTK toolkits, GTK sharps toolkits, and how to map each widget 13:13.400 --> 13:14.560 with the next. 13:17.560 --> 13:23.680 Yeah, I, not to be a dick, but that was really broken English through the whole email, so 13:23.680 --> 13:27.280 just trying to understand what some of these things were. 13:27.340 --> 13:28.680 It really jumped around a lot. 13:29.480 --> 13:32.900 So, I don't know, some of those things I think we did talk about. 13:33.680 --> 13:36.860 I don't remember us doing a Mono versus .NET versus job. 13:36.940 --> 13:41.140 I think we mentioned all three of those things, but I don't know that we did a quote versus. 13:42.680 --> 13:43.140 Did we? 13:43.140 --> 13:47.480 Yeah, you know, man, I don't know that I could really say that I know enough about, I mean, 13:47.520 --> 13:51.320 I've used .NET plenty, but I haven't really used Mono all that much, so I don't really 13:51.320 --> 13:54.760 think I'd be qualified to make any type of comparison on that. 13:54.960 --> 13:55.300 Yeah. 13:55.300 --> 14:01.280 I mean, I think we might have simply mentioned that Mono is the attempt at making code written 14:01.280 --> 14:06.420 in .NET portable over to Linux, so that you can use the same function calls that you would 14:06.420 --> 14:12.480 use in .NET, even if it's called, you know, resize underscore win, or whatever, and I'm 14:12.480 --> 14:13.160 just making that up. 14:13.220 --> 14:15.020 I don't know if that's real, so don't email me about that. 14:15.020 --> 14:20.360 But if it's called that in .NET on a Windows environment, they're trying to make that same 14:20.360 --> 14:26.140 function call with the same parameters over in the Linux environment. 14:26.260 --> 14:31.440 Now, they may have to write the code behind it to do it a little differently, but at least 14:31.440 --> 14:36.340 keep the names and function calls the same so that the code will port straight over there 14:36.340 --> 14:43.020 without having to rewrite specific Linux-only versions of the same thing to draw a Windows 14:43.020 --> 14:48.380 version where it's ex-Windows, GNOME, KDE, et cetera, et cetera. 14:49.780 --> 14:49.980 Yeah. 14:49.980 --> 14:56.060 But, yeah, that's definitely something that I have not, I have never done anything in 14:56.060 --> 14:57.440 Mono, so I'll say that up front. 14:57.720 --> 14:57.960 Yeah. 14:58.080 --> 15:01.620 Actually, the only thing I've tried to do in Mono is I've tried to take a .NET application 15:01.620 --> 15:06.200 that's done it with Mono, but apparently Mono doesn't implement the Microsoft, like, Windows 15:06.200 --> 15:10.760 forms, so this thing tried to put up a message box or something like that, and it just 15:10.760 --> 15:15.700 wouldn't, it would give me some error saying that it couldn't find Microsoft.messagebox.show, 15:15.820 --> 15:18.980 or Microsoft.visualbasics.messagebox.show, or something like that. 15:19.100 --> 15:19.940 So, I don't know. 15:20.060 --> 15:24.180 Mono seems like a bit more of a disaster to me than Java right now, just from the little 15:24.180 --> 15:24.860 bit that I've seen. 15:24.940 --> 15:28.500 I'm not saying that it is definitely, but I haven't seen anything great that runs it. 15:28.580 --> 15:32.140 I've seen, I actually heard, I forget the name of the music player, but suppose that there's 15:32.140 --> 15:35.140 something like Mono Music Player for Linux that's just fantastic. 15:35.140 --> 15:39.620 So, I want to check that out, actually, tonight, to see what it's all about, but so far, Mono 15:39.620 --> 15:41.780 hasn't really blown me out of the water. 15:42.180 --> 15:45.180 But that actually brings me to an important side. 15:45.400 --> 15:52.580 For anybody out there who is a .NET wizard and who uses, or at least knows about VisualBasic.NET, 15:53.740 --> 16:01.360 please email us, or me, or somebody, and let me know if VisualBasic.NET supports incremental 16:01.360 --> 16:01.820 builds. 16:01.820 --> 16:06.580 Because I'm working on a huge VB.NET project for somebody that I really hate, and anytime 16:06.580 --> 16:12.180 I change anything, it takes, like, fucking two minutes for the damn thing to just stop 16:12.180 --> 16:15.140 maxing out the processor to let me use the editor again. 16:15.260 --> 16:18.000 So, I just had to throw that in there. 16:18.120 --> 16:20.640 I don't think it does support incremental builds from seeing this. 16:20.780 --> 16:26.800 VisualStudio.NET 2005, and anytime I change anything, I just piss away minutes of my time, 16:27.100 --> 16:28.920 and it makes developing pretty much possible. 16:30.220 --> 16:31.340 All right, there you go. 16:31.820 --> 16:38.760 All right, on that, let's move ahead to a next email from Vati, who was nice enough 16:38.760 --> 16:42.860 to give me a pronunciation for his handle, so take note, people. 16:43.580 --> 16:51.400 Vati says, background, I've been coding primarily in Java, Gawk, G-A-W-K, and PHP for five years, 16:51.640 --> 16:53.520 miscellaneous other languages longer. 16:53.520 --> 16:56.520 Okay, so he's established credibility, so I like the start of this email. 16:57.520 --> 17:05.180 One of Java's great aspects is its stock API, collections of pre-existing objects like GUI components or database connectors. 17:05.180 --> 17:12.340 There are three sizes, quote-unquote, sizes available, so you don't waste drive space with extraneous features. 17:13.120 --> 17:19.500 J2-ME is micro, J2-SE is standard, and J2-EE is enterprise tons of stuff. 17:19.500 --> 17:23.920 So, let's see, keep your target audience in mind. 17:24.020 --> 17:29.520 If your program includes objects in a larger slash newer API than they have, it'll die. 17:30.060 --> 17:36.180 Stick to basics, and your EE dev environment can probably compile apps that run on ME phones. 17:36.180 --> 17:40.360 Most people run 1.4 SE and up. 17:40.620 --> 17:47.440 Compilers have switches to dumb themselves down, but instead, I stay a couple generations behind to be safe. 17:48.980 --> 17:50.180 I'm going to stop right there. 17:50.220 --> 17:51.440 Do we have any reply to that? 17:51.520 --> 17:57.060 I think we kind of bitched and made some comments along those lines, 17:57.120 --> 17:59.080 but I think he actually explained it a little bit better. 18:00.380 --> 18:01.740 Yeah, so far, I'm with this guy. 18:01.740 --> 18:07.000 Yeah, I think that's clear, the way he worded it is probably better than we did. 18:07.700 --> 18:11.480 And actually, I think we were kind of questioning that anyway, so that kind of clarifies some things. 18:11.780 --> 18:17.380 And staying a couple generations behind, see, I don't like the idea of that. 18:17.460 --> 18:21.400 That's not good backwards compatibility when you're scared to upgrade and stuff like that, 18:21.440 --> 18:23.360 but that's a whole, I guess, a whole other topic. 18:23.360 --> 18:31.820 So, he's saying, basically, that just get the J2EE edition or 1.4 SE or above, 18:32.120 --> 18:37.120 and if you're going to develop a micro application, I guess, to use this terminology, 18:37.260 --> 18:41.740 or an ME for something for a cell phone, a portable PDA or something like that, 18:42.060 --> 18:47.720 to just be careful to only use the micro libraries for things that you want to do. 18:47.800 --> 18:49.360 Is that what I'm reading into this? 18:49.380 --> 18:50.620 Is that what he's saying, he or she? 18:50.620 --> 18:57.240 No, I kind of thought that he was saying, basically, use the smallest functions that's possible, 18:57.400 --> 18:59.380 and you may turn out you don't need all that. 19:00.000 --> 19:06.000 You know, if your application is written as J2SE, you might be able to get by with just the J2ME functionality. 19:06.820 --> 19:12.700 But if you were making a J2ME application, and you try to use an SE function or EE function, 19:12.840 --> 19:13.620 it just won't compile. 19:13.980 --> 19:15.400 It will just tell you, I can't find this. 19:15.400 --> 19:22.580 Well, if you tried to code that in the IDE, it's not going to find the libraries that come with SE or EE 19:22.580 --> 19:23.760 because you didn't install them. 19:24.420 --> 19:25.240 Right, right, right. 19:25.320 --> 19:26.200 So they rolled downhill. 19:26.320 --> 19:29.560 The EE should come with everything that the SE and the ME comes with. 19:30.180 --> 19:30.580 Right. 19:30.860 --> 19:31.280 Is that right? 19:31.280 --> 19:38.860 So why not just always use the J2EE and just be knowledgeable and understand which libraries you're going to need 19:38.860 --> 19:40.760 for which applications you're going to write? 19:41.100 --> 19:43.300 Why do they have to break it up into three different things? 19:43.380 --> 19:46.740 Why not just have, you know, project-based? 19:46.840 --> 19:48.260 What type of project are you writing? 19:48.360 --> 19:51.980 Just have one IDE, J2EE, Enterprise whatever edition, 19:51.980 --> 19:58.600 and then when you start a new project, program, whatever nomenclate you want to use, select. 19:58.720 --> 20:01.180 Are you writing something for a portable object? 20:01.360 --> 20:08.020 If so, I'll only demonstrate and show you the available objects and libraries for that type of application. 20:08.600 --> 20:10.480 That's something that's an issue we handle in the IDE. 20:10.740 --> 20:10.860 Oh, yeah, actually, Eclipse does that. 20:10.980 --> 20:13.380 Eclipse will let you set project-specific and say, 20:13.720 --> 20:19.660 okay, for this project I want to use Java 1.3 with only these particular settings, 20:19.660 --> 20:23.320 and I want, you know, I want to be able to auto-complete these different libraries. 20:23.840 --> 20:25.640 Yeah, Eclipse definitely does that. 20:25.700 --> 20:28.960 You have one editor that does M-E-S-E-E-E. 20:29.260 --> 20:30.660 It's exactly what you're talking about. 20:31.300 --> 20:35.560 All right, so that should just, it seems to me like we don't have a need for J2M-E-S-E-E. 20:35.680 --> 20:40.400 Just have one fucking development environment and let the users select what they're doing. 20:40.800 --> 20:42.340 You know, this is for programmers. 20:42.460 --> 20:45.660 If you can't figure that out as a programmer, then... 20:45.660 --> 20:50.500 But I think you're confusing the development environment and the run time. 20:50.620 --> 20:53.300 The point is the development environment can support all of them. 20:53.620 --> 20:55.880 You can let your app, whichever application you want. 20:56.000 --> 20:56.340 Right. 20:56.380 --> 20:58.540 Or whichever standard, M-E-S-E-E-E. 20:58.660 --> 21:01.960 But if you're running something on a phone, it only has the M-E run time, 21:02.040 --> 21:05.400 which means it has this very small subset of functions they can use. 21:05.400 --> 21:09.860 So if you try to use something that's S-E-E-E, it's just not going to run. 21:09.860 --> 21:15.240 All right, I hear you, but I'm saying that when I, let's say I use, again, the E-E, 21:15.360 --> 21:18.880 let's call that the I-D-E, we're going to call it J2-E-E or whatever. 21:19.800 --> 21:20.480 I don't know. 21:20.520 --> 21:21.620 What was the name? 21:21.740 --> 21:24.500 Is there a name of the actual development environment itself? 21:25.340 --> 21:25.980 Yeah, Eclipse. 21:26.200 --> 21:27.100 Eclipse, okay, I'm sorry. 21:27.200 --> 21:28.860 Maybe I'm using, maybe my names are... 21:28.860 --> 21:31.240 So let's say you're in Eclipse and you want to write a program. 21:32.000 --> 21:36.380 Why not just have one super version of Eclipse that has E-E libraries, S-E libraries, 21:36.500 --> 21:37.880 and M-E libraries, all of them? 21:37.880 --> 21:39.120 And I say... 21:39.120 --> 21:39.380 That's what I'm saying. 21:39.580 --> 21:40.900 Eclipse has that already. 21:41.020 --> 21:42.560 That's exactly what Eclipse does. 21:42.720 --> 21:46.480 Well, then why does J2-M-E and S-E and E-E, why are they all separated? 21:47.800 --> 21:49.200 Because they're different run times. 21:49.460 --> 21:51.360 You might have a device that runs E-E. 21:51.480 --> 21:53.300 You might have a phone that runs S-E. 21:53.400 --> 21:55.300 You might have like a web server that runs E-E. 21:55.460 --> 21:56.400 It needs to do a lot of stuff. 21:56.600 --> 21:57.860 Oh, so this is not... 21:57.860 --> 21:59.340 When you download a development environment, 21:59.420 --> 22:04.840 you're not downloading only the J2-M-E Eclipse with only J2-M-E libraries? 22:04.840 --> 22:10.960 No, you might be able to download like a J2-M-E or J2-S-E, like SDK, 22:11.240 --> 22:13.140 but Eclipse comes with everything all together. 22:13.500 --> 22:14.640 Okay, well, that's... 22:14.640 --> 22:15.220 What is Eclipse? 22:15.360 --> 22:16.900 Does that come from Sun? 22:18.020 --> 22:20.080 No, Eclipse is an IDE that was like... 22:20.080 --> 22:20.980 It's an open source IDE. 22:21.540 --> 22:25.140 Actually, it's a framework for building editors that you can... 22:25.140 --> 22:26.940 That they've built this Java IDE off of, 22:26.940 --> 22:29.400 and I think it's kind of sponsored by IBM or stuff like that. 22:29.440 --> 22:30.220 But it's all open source. 22:30.320 --> 22:31.540 It's actually written in Java, 22:31.540 --> 22:33.280 and it's like a really... 22:33.280 --> 22:34.520 It's a really amazing development. 22:34.720 --> 22:35.600 Well, that's great. 22:35.720 --> 22:37.240 I mean, it sounds like there was a need for that. 22:37.260 --> 22:37.800 It's a great thing. 22:37.840 --> 22:39.440 But let's take that back out of the equation 22:39.440 --> 22:44.120 because it's not something that Sun delivers as something for Java. 22:44.180 --> 22:45.340 It's a third-party thing. 22:46.120 --> 22:46.560 Oh, yeah. 22:46.660 --> 22:47.540 So it sounds great. 22:47.560 --> 22:48.780 I can't say much about Sun. 22:48.960 --> 22:50.960 I don't know what to say about those guys. 22:51.380 --> 22:54.060 Yeah, I mean, from what I've seen in my experience, 22:54.060 --> 22:55.860 I go to the website to download a development, 22:56.320 --> 22:57.940 and I have to download one of those three. 22:58.120 --> 22:59.300 At least the last time I looked, 22:59.300 --> 23:01.860 and I got so frustrated, as we've talked about in the other show, 23:02.500 --> 23:05.540 it's like, geez, why can't I just download one thing 23:05.540 --> 23:08.520 and then let me wade through and read the RTFM 23:08.520 --> 23:10.280 and figure out what libraries I need to use 23:10.280 --> 23:12.460 for what application I need to develop? 23:12.900 --> 23:15.540 So it sounds like that need was so in demand 23:15.540 --> 23:18.040 that third-party people, open source, whatever, 23:18.180 --> 23:21.960 have developed Eclipse to do exactly what I'm describing to do, 23:22.020 --> 23:22.760 which is great, 23:23.140 --> 23:26.280 but let's not give credit to Sun or to Java for doing that. 23:26.280 --> 23:28.160 They obviously missed that need, 23:28.480 --> 23:30.760 and thus there was a need for third-party people, 23:30.960 --> 23:32.280 whether it was IBM or whatever, 23:32.380 --> 23:33.860 to come in and develop that. 23:33.940 --> 23:34.960 So that's a good solution. 23:35.140 --> 23:36.040 I like the idea of that, 23:36.100 --> 23:38.800 but let's not give credit to Sun or to Java for that, 23:38.860 --> 23:39.560 in my opinion. 23:40.500 --> 23:41.260 Okay, fair enough. 23:41.420 --> 23:41.700 All right. 23:42.480 --> 23:42.820 All right. 23:43.120 --> 23:45.220 And, yes, we're going to get a lot more hate mail for this, 23:45.320 --> 23:45.920 but that's all right. 23:45.980 --> 23:47.160 That's the way I feel about it, 23:47.180 --> 23:48.380 so what can I tell you? 23:49.380 --> 23:50.300 Let's see. 23:50.600 --> 23:51.840 Where did I leave off here? 23:52.940 --> 23:57.060 SE has got more than enough for general purposes. 23:57.500 --> 24:00.080 I've rarely needed to look for libraries outside the API 24:00.080 --> 24:01.460 to include with my app. 24:02.000 --> 24:07.100 JDOM is a particularly nice XML parser live by the O'Reilly guys. 24:07.240 --> 24:08.080 That's J-D-O-M. 24:09.800 --> 24:10.380 And, actually, you know, 24:10.460 --> 24:11.420 actually one other question, 24:11.540 --> 24:14.680 because you kind of mentioned this about most people run 1.4 SE and up. 24:14.680 --> 24:16.680 As far as the runtime environment, 24:17.620 --> 24:18.600 you have to be careful. 24:19.180 --> 24:24.940 I mean, you can't assume that everybody has the latest version of the Java runtime stuff, right? 24:25.680 --> 24:26.460 Right, exactly. 24:26.660 --> 24:30.760 So if I run with the just absolute cutting-edge latest version of Java, 24:31.740 --> 24:37.220 anybody that wants to run that Java app is going to have to download that latest runtime library, right? 24:37.240 --> 24:38.920 That's why Java is all the time being updated. 24:39.640 --> 24:40.260 Yeah, exactly. 24:40.260 --> 24:46.860 So it's easy to say something is run anywhere when the quote-unquote anywhere is constantly being updated and changed. 24:48.940 --> 24:49.820 Yeah, exactly. 24:50.180 --> 24:54.720 It's not exactly a perfect system, but the best they've got right now. 24:54.800 --> 24:55.700 But it's not run anywhere. 24:55.820 --> 24:58.520 That's the point I made all along, and people seem to be trying to defend. 24:58.740 --> 25:00.280 The bottom line is it's not run anywhere. 25:00.540 --> 25:06.060 It's run anywhere that has the latest runtime environment updated and installed, you know? 25:07.080 --> 25:07.520 Right. 25:07.520 --> 25:10.140 I mean, I understand it's the nature of it. 25:10.180 --> 25:10.800 Don't get me wrong. 25:10.880 --> 25:11.900 I understand the nature of it. 25:11.940 --> 25:13.980 But let's just be honest and not call it run anywhere. 25:14.300 --> 25:19.520 It's run anywhere that has the proper version and the proper runtime library type, 25:19.680 --> 25:21.060 whether it's M, E, S, E, or whatever, 25:21.320 --> 25:24.800 and the proper version or higher that you need. 25:25.760 --> 25:26.040 Right. 25:26.140 --> 25:28.300 But the point of the whole virtual machine thing 25:28.300 --> 25:32.160 is so that somebody can do the implementation of the virtual machine on that platform once, 25:32.560 --> 25:34.300 and then all of those other things can run on it. 25:34.300 --> 25:37.060 Whereas if you're writing a C application, C is portable, right? 25:37.420 --> 25:42.520 But everybody who writes a C application needs to know about all these quirks of different operating systems 25:42.520 --> 25:45.380 to make it run on those other operating systems. 25:45.640 --> 25:48.320 Whereas a Java virtual machine is supposed to take care of that for you. 25:48.440 --> 25:53.200 And despite what you may think, it really does a pretty good job of that, I think. 25:53.280 --> 25:53.820 No, I think... 25:53.820 --> 25:54.820 At least on the platforms I've seen. 25:54.820 --> 25:56.960 Oh, I definitely think it does it better. 25:57.060 --> 25:57.820 No doubt about that. 25:57.880 --> 26:00.260 I'm not completely saying that it's garbage or anything. 26:00.360 --> 26:01.940 I'm just saying let's put it in perspective. 26:02.140 --> 26:03.100 Let's not... 26:03.100 --> 26:07.060 You know, some of these Java zealots will just put it up on a pedestal like it's the greatest thing ever. 26:07.240 --> 26:08.200 It has flaws, too. 26:09.280 --> 26:10.320 Yeah, everything has flaws. 26:10.440 --> 26:11.360 Yeah, so there's nuances. 26:12.820 --> 26:13.940 Yeah, yeah, right. 26:14.020 --> 26:15.880 The mysterious circle. 26:16.020 --> 26:16.940 That's all I have to say. 26:18.860 --> 26:19.940 It's totally mysterious. 26:20.280 --> 26:21.640 It can take apart guns with its mind. 26:21.640 --> 26:25.640 But keep your eyes on, it may come back in the future, listeners, if you find it. 26:26.960 --> 26:27.860 Behold its power. 26:28.680 --> 26:32.420 Another nice thing is that the whole API source code is available. 26:32.600 --> 26:33.640 Well, of course, that's a great thing. 26:34.120 --> 26:36.480 You can see the guts of a J button or linked list. 26:36.580 --> 26:39.880 You can start by coding RAD style, which is rapid access development. 26:40.200 --> 26:46.820 RAD style, and then eventually streamline by copy-pasting to create an identical but custom object and stripping out methods. 26:46.820 --> 26:52.360 Or if a new Java 1.x introduces a bug, you can make an old-school button from the previous source. 26:53.260 --> 26:54.520 Totally feel you on that one. 26:54.700 --> 26:56.180 That's definitely straightforward. 26:56.540 --> 26:56.700 Cool. 26:57.420 --> 27:02.700 As mentioned before, the write once run everywhere means your users don't need to troubleshoot compiler errors. 27:03.060 --> 27:05.260 They do have to install a virtual machine once. 27:06.540 --> 27:07.420 Okay, I'm going to stop. 27:07.560 --> 27:08.040 Armageddon! 27:08.280 --> 27:08.760 Armageddon! 27:09.480 --> 27:09.920 Armageddon! 27:10.140 --> 27:11.800 They have to install a VM once. 27:12.320 --> 27:15.980 I'm going to insert and constantly upgrade it as new releases come out. 27:16.800 --> 27:20.820 Oh, you don't have to worry about updating it because Java Update does that for you like 15 times a day. 27:20.900 --> 27:21.920 I know, constantly. 27:22.100 --> 27:23.940 I swear to God, I am not joking. 27:24.040 --> 27:26.800 I did that before we started recording and rebooted my freaking machine. 27:27.540 --> 27:27.940 Of course. 27:29.580 --> 27:30.140 Let's see. 27:30.140 --> 27:36.720 They do have to install a virtual machine once, but from then on, they just run your JAR, and it behaves the same on any virtual machine. 27:36.720 --> 27:44.180 And again, correct me if I'm wrong on this or if you know this, but we're going back to what he said. 27:44.180 --> 27:52.080 I think that's within the parameters he laid out earlier of only using the standard stick-to-basics that he says earlier. 27:52.200 --> 27:55.620 Your EE dev environment can compile apps that run on, blah, blah, blah. 27:57.100 --> 28:01.020 So sticking with the libraries and the APIs that it comes with, not using any third-party. 28:01.120 --> 28:03.620 And actually, I'll throw that question out to the interweb listeners. 28:03.620 --> 28:08.140 Are there third-party, are there libraries that don't come with it? 28:08.180 --> 28:11.280 It may come with a lot, but are there third-party libraries? 28:11.400 --> 28:26.320 I know with Visual Basic and a lot of the other visual languages, you can buy third-party libraries that you pay for for things like doing extra graphics functions or 3D graphics and game development, things like that, that you can buy third-party libraries to use. 28:27.080 --> 28:29.960 Is that the same for Java, or do you know the answer to that in our theory? 28:31.040 --> 28:33.380 If you can buy third-party libraries, absolutely. 28:33.620 --> 28:34.360 Yeah, there's tons of them. 28:34.700 --> 28:35.240 For Java? 28:36.560 --> 28:37.800 Yeah, for Java, definitely. 28:38.120 --> 28:38.440 Okay. 28:39.160 --> 28:39.520 Interesting. 28:39.780 --> 28:52.180 Now, if you do that, if you buy third-party libraries to develop, say, I don't know, a game, so you buy third-party libraries that have some tools that help you in programming games like animation or something, and then I want to distribute that. 28:52.180 --> 28:58.140 How do I get those third-party libraries to work on a virtual machine of somebody that didn't have them? 28:58.200 --> 29:03.640 Are they included in the JAR file so that when they get there, they'll load into the virtual machine somehow? 29:04.460 --> 29:10.080 Yeah, you could put them, you could include the JAR files, or you could include those classes in your JAR file. 29:10.440 --> 29:17.720 So, yeah, the distribution of that is all, the package builder, the JAR builder that you have in Eclipse will handle all of that kind of stuff for you. 29:18.420 --> 29:24.560 Now, see, that, now that I know that, that, I think, would alleviate a lot of my frustrations if more people did that. 29:24.640 --> 29:30.700 Is that, sounds to me like that should be something that's a standard programming practice, include any external libraries. 29:30.700 --> 29:37.900 Because, when you, when you put something to a JAR file, I assume there's some sort of packaging process that will put everything you need into that JAR file? 29:38.560 --> 29:39.200 Yeah, exactly. 29:39.920 --> 29:41.440 Hmm, very interesting. 29:42.400 --> 29:42.620 That? 29:42.740 --> 29:49.180 But, honestly, the, the applications that I've worked with, you know, I, I deploy what's called a WAR file. 29:49.340 --> 29:51.040 It's a web JAR, basically. 29:51.340 --> 29:51.620 Mm-hmm. 29:51.620 --> 29:57.720 And I have some external libraries that are required for that, Postgres library, and, and things along, along that line. 29:57.720 --> 30:03.360 But, uh, I actually just put those on the server, and I don't include them with my, uh, with my WAR file. 30:03.460 --> 30:10.740 So, I haven't done it before, but I'm pretty sure that you can just tell it, include these files, and, and stuff them into the JAR, and it should be just fine. 30:10.780 --> 30:14.880 But if you can't, you can distribute them alongside of the, uh, of the JAR file. 30:16.400 --> 30:18.000 So, there is, there is a way to do it. 30:18.000 --> 30:24.760 But, but you have to go, do you have to go out of your way to tell it to include those, or isn't it smart enough to automatically say, 30:24.760 --> 30:30.960 hey, these are not part of my standard runtime library, these APIs, or something separate, and automatically include them? 30:32.300 --> 30:37.940 Well, you know, like I said, I've never packaged a JAR like that before, but Eclipse is definitely smart enough to know when things are missing. 30:38.360 --> 30:39.360 So, once again. 30:39.460 --> 30:41.700 So, if Eclipse exists, Eclipse doesn't. 30:41.900 --> 30:43.360 So, Eclipse saves the day again. 30:44.040 --> 30:49.880 Yeah, Eclipse actually is supposedly IntelliJ, which is, uh, another editor, or another IDE for Java. 30:50.000 --> 30:54.880 It's supposed to be a million times better than Eclipse, which I don't understand how it's possible, but that's what people tell me. 30:54.960 --> 30:58.640 So, if you want, maybe you should just check that out from the start, see what it can do. 30:58.960 --> 30:59.320 Cool. 30:59.640 --> 31:01.780 All right, well, so far, I'm, I'm enjoying this email. 31:01.780 --> 31:04.020 I'm actually learning a couple things I didn't realize before. 31:04.240 --> 31:08.000 So, Vati, you got the, you got the good email of the week award so far. 31:09.220 --> 31:10.460 Uh, let's see, where else? 31:10.580 --> 31:12.520 And we're only halfway through this email, a little over. 31:12.520 --> 31:15.200 Uh, a note on virtual machines. 31:15.440 --> 31:17.960 Uh, let's see, am I, did I pick up the right place? 31:19.520 --> 31:21.820 Yeah, a note on virtual machines. 31:21.960 --> 31:24.220 Technically, they're portable in the USB sense. 31:24.740 --> 31:28.880 The installer's mainly for file associations, browser integration, and path variables. 31:28.880 --> 31:45.260 You can simply copy the virtual machines folder around with your app and use a shell script to run dot myvm slash bin java exe space jar space minus jar space dot my app dot jar. 31:45.260 --> 31:47.880 I'm not sure about licensing issues on that, though. 31:47.980 --> 31:53.380 Similarly, you can have several different virtual machines on the same box if you run them that way. 31:53.380 --> 31:56.920 So, actually, there's another stopping point, if I may. 31:57.500 --> 32:03.000 Do you know anything about, why, why would you need multiple virtual machines for Java on the same box? 32:03.060 --> 32:06.240 If Java's so great, why wasn't, why doesn't one virtual machine do the job? 32:06.240 --> 32:13.440 Uh, you know, I think one virtual machine would do the job, but I think that there might be some breaking changes between versions. 32:13.980 --> 32:18.140 So, some things may work or be quirky if you don't have the same version they implemented. 32:18.280 --> 32:21.200 But it shouldn't really be that way, but that's a possibility. 32:21.200 --> 32:33.200 The other reason is that maybe you've got one particular virtual machine that's optimized, that runs, like, I know there's, like, the Sun virtual machine, and there's, like, the Blackdown. 32:33.380 --> 32:34.460 I think it's called Blackdown. 32:34.660 --> 32:36.740 It's another Java runtime environment. 32:36.840 --> 32:38.840 It might be optimized better to do certain things. 32:39.260 --> 32:42.320 So, you might say, if I'm running this type of application, let me use Blackdown. 32:42.440 --> 32:43.880 If I'm using this one, let me use Sun. 32:43.960 --> 32:45.240 If I'm using this one, let me use IBM. 32:46.300 --> 32:49.960 From what I can understand, it would probably just be performance that you'd be worried about. 32:49.960 --> 32:53.320 But maybe there are other reasons that I'm not clear on. 32:54.560 --> 32:57.740 Yeah, I mean, you've got to maintain backwards compatibility. 32:58.080 --> 33:03.760 I mean, if you want enterprises and big companies to use this, but every time you upgrade it, it's going to break stuff. 33:03.820 --> 33:06.340 And I have seen that happen on multiple occasions. 33:06.440 --> 33:10.460 And then they have to release patches, and it automatically updates 50 times a day, et cetera, et cetera. 33:11.100 --> 33:12.880 And then the updates break more things. 33:12.880 --> 33:16.980 So, that's poor implementation by Sun. 33:17.140 --> 33:20.460 But it is certainly another thing that frustrates people. 33:21.020 --> 33:22.600 And that's, again, kind of the conversation. 33:22.720 --> 33:25.500 It's not necessarily me or even us. 33:25.860 --> 33:28.040 You know, we've had issues with Java in the past. 33:28.080 --> 33:29.000 We've talked about it on the show. 33:29.100 --> 33:32.660 But the whole point of the show is let's give Java a fair shake. 33:32.780 --> 33:33.820 Tell me what I'm missing. 33:33.980 --> 33:38.600 Explain to me some of the things that are frustrating and I'm confused by about Java. 33:38.660 --> 33:39.620 And explain them to me. 33:39.620 --> 33:42.420 That's why we've got a lot of great email this week to talk about that. 33:42.540 --> 33:47.060 So, I'm picking up a few good things that I didn't realize, but some of them I still haven't been convinced. 33:48.180 --> 33:49.960 Let me finish this email here. 33:50.360 --> 33:51.000 Let's see. 33:51.400 --> 33:55.160 Yes, Java is usually more of a memory hog and a bit slower than native apps. 33:55.560 --> 33:59.940 It's a tradeoff for end-user convenience and rapid access development, RAD, for devs. 34:00.300 --> 34:03.380 Some third-party virtual machines try to remedy that with optimizations. 34:03.940 --> 34:08.340 Also, don't confuse IE's slow applet startup times with virtual machine sluggishness. 34:08.340 --> 34:12.420 I don't know what IE's problem is, but Opera runs applets instantly for me. 34:14.260 --> 34:19.760 I would assume, not theory, that that's because Opera probably loads it when you boot Opera for the first time, 34:19.840 --> 34:27.440 so that when you do hit a Java applet, a jar file or whatever, that it already has it loaded into memory when it booted the browser, 34:27.560 --> 34:31.140 so therefore it can run immediately and IE probably doesn't load it at startup. 34:31.140 --> 34:33.460 Yeah, that's a possibility. 34:33.640 --> 34:40.640 I think also IE has like a weird mechanism for starting up the Java runtime because, you know, 34:40.680 --> 34:46.940 Java doesn't come with Windows anymore, so I think it's kind of like a clunky process for IE to fire it up. 34:47.060 --> 34:51.120 Like there might be some like helper ActiveX control or something that does it, 34:51.120 --> 34:55.440 so there's like an extra layer or there's an extra step that it needs to go to in order to start that up. 34:55.580 --> 35:01.240 But yeah, I've seen Java applet performance in, I mean, even in Firefox seems faster than IE, 35:01.480 --> 35:06.380 so it's probably just some bad programming at Microsoft's part. 35:06.460 --> 35:08.120 I know that's not possible, but... 35:08.120 --> 35:12.940 Well, I was going to say, then we go back to the old Microsoft released their virtual machine 35:12.940 --> 35:18.360 and that whole mess that it came from that. 35:19.180 --> 35:19.580 Yeah. 35:20.000 --> 35:21.960 So, yeah, I don't even want to go there. 35:22.700 --> 35:28.040 Anyway, and actually, and I'm just thinking out loud here, I don't know if I'm saying this is correct or not, 35:28.060 --> 35:32.780 but as far as a memory hog, is that because the nature of a virtual machine is you have to load 35:32.780 --> 35:37.720 all of the possible libraries that may be needed in a virtual machine into memory, 35:37.840 --> 35:40.480 into the runtime environment, in case they're used? 35:40.540 --> 35:42.440 Do you have to load every possible one? 35:43.300 --> 35:45.060 No, it can load them on the fly. 35:45.140 --> 35:46.000 It can, okay. 35:46.540 --> 35:46.820 Yeah. 35:47.300 --> 35:48.700 So what else could be causing... 35:48.700 --> 35:55.320 I mean, everybody knows, it's common knowledge that Java apps are more memory intensive and CPU intensive. 35:55.940 --> 35:56.680 Why is that? 35:57.920 --> 36:00.200 Well, there's a couple of reasons I can think of that. 36:00.200 --> 36:06.580 But the first would be that, essentially, you've got that extra layer of virtualization going on. 36:06.660 --> 36:12.660 Because I think of resources, whether it's CPU or hard drive space or RAM, that's some of it there. 36:12.740 --> 36:17.000 But also the Java garbage collector doesn't always run when you think it should. 36:17.140 --> 36:21.700 So, like, if you create a bunch of objects and then you destroy them, you think you get that memory back. 36:21.780 --> 36:24.340 But in Java, you really don't until the garbage parts are run. 36:24.340 --> 36:29.360 So it could just be that the application is poorly designed and it's allocating too many things. 36:29.360 --> 36:37.660 That's not, you know, not being as efficient as it could, which I don't know if that's just a Java programmer thing to do or what. 36:37.780 --> 36:44.920 But if you have an application that you notice that way and you have the source code to it, you can, you know, sprinkle coal into the garbage. 36:44.920 --> 36:48.280 You can force the garbage collector to run and see if that helps it. 36:48.280 --> 36:59.660 But, yeah, in general, I'm not really sure exactly what causes – I couldn't say with 100% certainty what causes the memory bloat and Java applications. 36:59.860 --> 37:01.140 But it's definitely there. 37:01.300 --> 37:01.640 I see it. 37:01.740 --> 37:05.640 The application that I've heard, like the Bellspot application, seems to be pretty lean. 37:05.640 --> 37:09.680 But, you know, the PHP application definitely took up a bus pathway. 37:10.620 --> 37:10.900 Hmm. 37:11.500 --> 37:13.420 But it also did a whole hell of a lot less. 37:13.920 --> 37:16.480 So it's really hard to compare, I think. 37:16.960 --> 37:27.240 If you're – so if you are very careful programming, are you saying things like making sure you have destructors every time you no longer need an object? 37:27.240 --> 37:37.180 Do you make sure you destruct everything you've constructed along the way and that will free the memory back up and not let it sit there and wait to be closed by the machine itself? 37:37.940 --> 37:38.680 Well, actually, no. 37:38.800 --> 37:45.580 In Java, what they do, instead of you having to worry about, like, destroying your objects and things like that, they do what's called reference counting. 37:46.040 --> 37:50.760 So, like, let's say I create an object, right, that has a reference count now of one. 37:51.240 --> 37:51.420 Right. 37:51.420 --> 37:57.580 Somebody else, you know, I pass a – or I pass a pointer, kind of, not really, but somebody else gets a reference to that object. 37:57.700 --> 37:59.860 So we're both looking at that object. 38:00.020 --> 38:02.160 So now the object has a reference count of two. 38:02.900 --> 38:07.900 Well, when I dispose of it, when I tell Java I'm done with it, Java decrements the reference counter. 38:08.000 --> 38:15.820 If the reference counter goes to zero, it's supposed to kind of take that memory space and say, okay, nobody's using this anymore. 38:15.820 --> 38:19.100 Let me free it up and, you know, give it back to the system. 38:19.100 --> 38:24.280 But running the garbage collector to do that is, like, a CPU-intensive process. 38:24.600 --> 38:31.060 So they try to avoid it on third virtual machines, especially, like, the J2ME virtual machines that run on your phone. 38:31.520 --> 38:34.680 Like, running the garbage collector on a phone is really CPU-intensive. 38:34.820 --> 38:36.580 So they like to avoid it as much as possible. 38:36.580 --> 38:49.200 So even if your object has a reference count of zero and it's been disposed of and nobody's looking at it anymore, the system knows that that RAM is earmarked to be free, but only the next time the garbage collector runs. 38:49.320 --> 38:52.380 And unless you run it explicitly, there's no way to be sure when it runs. 38:52.840 --> 38:55.820 Sometimes it will only run when the machine runs out of RAM completely. 38:55.820 --> 39:04.140 So that's why, even when you're disposed of an object, it's still there until you actually explicitly garbage collect it. 39:04.340 --> 39:04.680 Gotcha. 39:04.680 --> 39:05.140 Does that make sense? 39:05.500 --> 39:05.720 Yep. 39:05.900 --> 39:06.540 Perfect sense. 39:07.380 --> 39:07.720 Okay. 39:07.940 --> 39:08.540 I love you. 39:09.440 --> 39:10.680 Oh, let's get married. 39:12.560 --> 39:13.220 Let's see. 39:14.320 --> 39:14.680 Email. 39:15.040 --> 39:16.080 A note on applets. 39:16.200 --> 39:17.240 And we're almost to the end of this. 39:17.540 --> 39:18.400 A note on applets. 39:18.520 --> 39:22.880 Applets are different from applications in that their powers are limited for security reasons. 39:22.880 --> 39:34.100 And while applications are isolated, applets within a browser can talk to each other and share static classes slash variables. 39:38.500 --> 39:41.640 All right. 39:41.900 --> 39:47.680 I just popped a thought into my head, and this may be way off because I once again admit that I'm a complete noob at this. 39:47.680 --> 39:54.500 But if it's persistent, what happens if you open two different tabs with two different applets in them? 39:54.580 --> 39:55.240 Can they share? 39:55.360 --> 40:02.460 Are they using shared memory locations where they can read and write from something that's going on in another tabbed window somewhere? 40:02.560 --> 40:07.340 A Java applet over here that, I don't know, has my credit card information or something like that? 40:07.400 --> 40:15.240 Can I write another Java app that, if opened in another browser tab, can read said memory and pull it over there and deliver it to a different site? 40:15.240 --> 40:22.960 I think the way that the Java security model works is that applets from, like, different domains probably can't talk to each other. 40:23.020 --> 40:24.220 I'm not totally sure about this. 40:24.300 --> 40:28.720 But I think when they came up with that security model, nobody really had tabbed browsers. 40:28.880 --> 40:29.700 So that's an interesting question. 40:29.820 --> 40:30.240 I don't know. 40:31.020 --> 40:35.420 Maybe if you had two tabs open to the same website, those applications would talk back and forth, 40:35.500 --> 40:39.600 but maybe each tab is considered, like, a separate applet container or something. 40:39.680 --> 40:40.480 I'm not really sure. 40:41.180 --> 40:43.000 That would be really cool. 40:43.140 --> 40:44.540 Yeah, that could be pretty awesome. 40:45.240 --> 40:50.280 Yeah, actually, one thing I learned about Java that I didn't, you know, maybe I did realize it before, 40:50.420 --> 40:56.100 but wasn't totally sure about it, is that Java applications can actually manipulate the page that they're on 40:56.100 --> 40:57.440 and, like, screw around with the DOM. 40:57.580 --> 40:58.220 So I don't know. 40:58.640 --> 41:00.680 There's got to be some type of security application there. 41:00.780 --> 41:06.600 Like, can a Java applet, like, dynamically create JavaScript that does, you know, scary things, 41:06.600 --> 41:11.260 like posting to your home and doing weird stuff like that, you know, cross-site scripting, whatever? 41:11.260 --> 41:17.300 I don't know that either, but I know that definitely Java can, you know, mess around with the DOM 41:17.300 --> 41:20.020 and, like, turn check boxes on and off and do scary things. 41:20.660 --> 41:23.860 So if anybody knows the answer to that question, we should write in and let them know. 41:23.860 --> 41:28.880 Or, yeah, if it can just, if it can do that kind of thing, I mean, you could have a trigger waiting for a certain event 41:28.880 --> 41:33.740 in JavaScript, waiting for a Java applet to do something. 41:34.860 --> 41:35.120 I don't know. 41:35.520 --> 41:38.800 Anyway, now that I understand a lot of this, now a bunch of questions are coming to my head, 41:38.820 --> 41:42.960 and these are probably, you know, people that know Java really well from a security side 41:42.960 --> 41:44.300 probably already know a lot of this too. 41:44.300 --> 41:48.740 So please, by all means, email me, because now I'm, I can't believe I'm going to say this not there. 41:48.820 --> 41:53.760 You might have to fly down here and kill me, but I actually think I'm starting to get interested in Java now. 41:54.420 --> 41:57.140 Yeah, Java's the best language ever. 41:57.280 --> 41:59.620 Whoa, okay, now let's not go all crazy now. 42:00.460 --> 42:01.500 Armageddon, Armageddon! 42:02.560 --> 42:06.360 Let's not, let's keep, let's keep this. 42:06.360 --> 42:07.280 It's the best language ever. 42:07.620 --> 42:11.380 You know what, right now, for me, it's the best language that I'm using, to tell you the truth. 42:11.380 --> 42:18.300 But, uh, but it's really neat to, to program in, and I think, uh, I think it keeps, keeps things running smoothly on my side. 42:18.960 --> 42:21.820 Yeah, it really, no, joking aside, I really am becoming more interested. 42:21.960 --> 42:23.540 I understand a little bit more about it now. 42:24.320 --> 42:26.020 So, uh, let's see. 42:26.040 --> 42:26.600 You drank the Kool-Aid. 42:27.160 --> 42:29.360 I took the red pill, or was it the blue pill? 42:29.880 --> 42:30.120 Whatever. 42:30.240 --> 42:30.700 I don't know. 42:31.240 --> 42:35.580 Um, when people complain that it's slow, I always think of this, this fun exception. 42:35.800 --> 42:37.560 Jake 2, a Quake 2 port. 42:37.840 --> 42:40.960 Check out its benchmark comparison against C. 42:41.680 --> 42:43.120 Uh, and he gives a URL. 42:43.240 --> 42:44.200 I'm not going to read it on the air. 42:44.620 --> 42:48.580 Uh, we'll try to put it in the show notes, if we ever get those up to. 42:48.920 --> 42:54.020 Finally, for a convenient reference, here are API docs and monolithic CHM help files. 42:54.100 --> 43:00.580 And once again, I'll try to put that up in the, uh, show notes as well, because it's kind of a long URL. 43:00.580 --> 43:02.100 And I'm lazy, and we're running out of time. 43:02.160 --> 43:06.900 Can you believe we're, like, well over halfway through the show, 40 plus minutes into the show, 43:06.900 --> 43:09.120 and we're only in a second email? 43:10.280 --> 43:11.520 Yeah, that's pretty big. 43:11.760 --> 43:12.320 Yeah, but you know what? 43:12.540 --> 43:14.200 The second email was really good, that's why. 43:14.500 --> 43:14.860 Exactly. 43:15.080 --> 43:19.220 Vati, not only do you win the Email of the Week award so far, and I still got some more coming up, 43:19.720 --> 43:24.140 but since this is the only episode this month, that means by default you win the Email of the Month award. 43:24.920 --> 43:26.600 And quite possibly, this was a good email. 43:26.720 --> 43:29.260 It answered a lot of questions, it explained a lot of things. 43:29.840 --> 43:32.360 Um, maybe the Email of the Year award so far. 43:32.420 --> 43:33.100 What do you think of that? 43:34.700 --> 43:35.060 Whoa. 43:35.060 --> 43:38.940 We don't really have such awards or anything, but I'm making it up right now. 43:40.380 --> 43:43.800 So, uh, let's move on to another long email about Java. 43:44.720 --> 43:46.240 This email is from Pixel. 43:47.280 --> 43:48.000 Pixel says, 43:48.100 --> 43:49.120 ThankDog and co-host. 43:49.760 --> 43:51.600 Regarding episode 192, 43:51.700 --> 43:53.000 wow, is this back on 192? 43:53.080 --> 43:54.300 We're only on 195 now? 43:54.660 --> 43:56.880 Boy, we are not very fast. 43:57.440 --> 44:01.060 Um, I wanted to help clarify a few of your Java questions. 44:01.180 --> 44:01.580 Please do. 44:01.580 --> 44:05.980 There are three flavors of Java, J2SE, J2ME, and J2EE. 44:06.640 --> 44:10.020 Actually, the two has been dropped with the release of Java 5 and 6. 44:10.180 --> 44:11.660 Oh yeah, that's going to clear things up. 44:11.700 --> 44:14.620 Let's just start fucking dropping numbers, renaming shit even further. 44:14.820 --> 44:16.080 That'll always clear things up. 44:16.140 --> 44:16.760 Clear as mud. 44:18.140 --> 44:18.860 Alright, whatever. 44:19.380 --> 44:24.060 J2SE is the standard edition that allows you to create command line applications and GUI applications. 44:25.460 --> 44:28.320 J2ME is a micro edition targeted at mobile devices. 44:28.320 --> 44:34.520 J2ME is a set of standards for defining additions to the standard edition to allow certain mobile-specific functionality, 44:35.020 --> 44:39.280 such as mobile phone camera access, sending SMS messages, etc. 44:40.740 --> 44:46.380 It is more or less the equivalent to installing the Windows Mobile Smartphone SDK on top of standard .NET. 44:46.380 --> 44:50.320 Alright, so I, okay, Armageddon, hold on, I got a question. 44:51.140 --> 44:51.460 Okay. 44:51.740 --> 45:02.540 I thought on cell phones, and you might know this, I thought on cell phones that all this played in its own sandbox and could not, in fact, access things like sending SMS messages. 45:02.540 --> 45:04.240 No, no, no, no, no, no, no. 45:04.240 --> 45:06.420 Actually, you're going to love this. 45:06.580 --> 45:06.960 Oh, no. 45:06.960 --> 45:17.100 There are extensions for cell phones that let them access different functionality on even, like, different model phones. 45:17.360 --> 45:26.920 So you could have one phone that has a GPS and another phone doesn't, but has some, like, assisted GPS where the cell phone network can tell it where it is and all kinds of stuff like that. 45:26.920 --> 45:33.260 So they have standard, this is semi-standardized called some of these things, and I think they're called JSRs. 45:33.260 --> 45:45.100 I don't know what JSR stands for, but, like, if you Google around for something like JSR 139, I don't know what 139 is, but I'm sure it'll say, like, you know, an interface to a camera phone through Java. 45:45.260 --> 45:55.160 So it's some way that you can use Java and get to that native device hardware, but the device has the ability to limit you. 45:55.160 --> 46:02.380 Like, you can pop up a box to the user, print the JVM, and say, do you want this application to be able to use the camera? 46:03.100 --> 46:11.160 And you can say, yes, always, yes, once, no, this time, or no, always, you know, something like that. 46:12.120 --> 46:18.840 So, yeah, Java applets can get to all kinds of stuff on phone, from GPS to the camera to sending text messages. 46:18.840 --> 46:24.380 Sending text messages is very common in standard of across phones now, but those other things, not so much. 46:25.160 --> 46:29.620 So what I just heard was never trust a Java applet on your cell phone. 46:30.540 --> 46:32.860 Well, here's the thing. 46:32.960 --> 46:43.900 The applets are required to prompt you about certain different things, and a lot of these JSRs, they're not accessible on the device unless your code is signed. 46:43.900 --> 46:52.780 So if you have, let's say, a Verizon Razor phone, if you're just a regular Java developer, you can't get to the location API. 46:52.980 --> 47:01.080 You can't, you know, have the phone figure out where it is by GPS or whatever, and then send that information out over a port and, like, spy on somebody. 47:01.440 --> 47:04.940 You need to send your application to Verizon to get it approved. 47:04.940 --> 47:09.580 They have to, like, check it out, make sure you're legit, and then they'll send you a signed copy back. 47:09.720 --> 47:12.640 You can distribute to people that then has access to those APIs. 47:13.280 --> 47:14.020 It won't just... 47:14.020 --> 47:18.660 But that's how they try to assure you security, because, of course, everyone trusts Verizon. 47:19.320 --> 47:19.740 So I wouldn't worry about it. 47:19.740 --> 47:24.700 And I assume they do code review on that to make sure it's not doing anything fishy? 47:25.600 --> 47:27.040 Actually, I think that they do. 47:27.160 --> 47:29.920 I think there's, like, a certification process if you want to... 47:29.920 --> 47:39.920 Specifically, if you want to use the Verizon vocation-based API, I think that there is some type of code review or some type of approval. 47:40.060 --> 47:43.540 Maybe they give it to people who debated that, but I'm not totally sure. 47:43.620 --> 47:49.460 But I wanted to write something that was, you know, location-aware for Verizon, and I looked at their forms. 47:49.460 --> 47:51.780 You had to fill out all the bullshit you had to go through, 47:51.780 --> 47:55.420 and they have a policy where if somebody else has a similar application already, 47:56.000 --> 48:00.260 that chances are they're not going to grant you the ability to write a similar application, 48:00.420 --> 48:03.940 because Lord knows you couldn't have two applications that did similar things, 48:04.020 --> 48:05.180 but one was better than the other. 48:05.900 --> 48:13.820 So, yeah, there is some form of certification and some pseudo-guarantee that the application is not going to, you know, 48:13.840 --> 48:15.720 go crazy and insult you. 48:16.940 --> 48:20.700 And there's no way to install unsigned applications? 48:20.700 --> 48:25.120 It won't just pop up a dialogue like it does when you try to install certain Windows plug-ins, 48:25.180 --> 48:29.200 saying it hasn't passed Microsoft Authent certification, warning, warning, 48:29.380 --> 48:31.240 and you say, yeah, install anyway? 48:31.480 --> 48:33.020 It was not going to allow me to do that? 48:33.960 --> 48:35.340 You know, I'm not totally sure. 48:35.500 --> 48:41.420 There may be hacks to do that, or maybe certain, like, maybe Sprint will let you do that, 48:41.500 --> 48:42.480 but maybe not Verizon. 48:42.480 --> 48:46.440 And I'm not sure how that portion of the security model works. 48:46.600 --> 48:50.860 But I'm sure somebody out there does, and hopefully they'll email us, but it's not. 48:51.440 --> 48:53.300 And we'll get to it in another month or two. 48:54.280 --> 48:54.640 Yeah. 48:54.640 --> 48:57.200 Okay, so let's see. 48:57.260 --> 48:58.060 I left off J2ME. 48:58.220 --> 49:02.400 J2EE is the Enterprise Edition and provides a set of standards for Enterprise features, 49:02.520 --> 49:06.040 including web servlets, message queues, and clustered features. 49:07.120 --> 49:07.560 Okay. 49:08.540 --> 49:12.960 J2SE is created by Sun, and obviously I'm back reading the email here from Pixel, 49:13.080 --> 49:14.100 in case you didn't figure that out. 49:14.960 --> 49:16.460 J2SE is created by Sun. 49:16.460 --> 49:24.480 J2ME and J2EE are implemented by other vendors on top of J2SE to provide specific installations. 49:25.120 --> 49:31.740 For example, Nokia mobile phones have a Nokia implementation of J2ME written for their hardware. 49:31.860 --> 49:32.560 Oh, that's interesting. 49:33.860 --> 49:39.200 Any application which is written to the standard will run on any of the appropriate platforms. 49:39.720 --> 49:44.760 There are some issues with J2ME, but these mostly relate to the different screen resolutions of different devices. 49:44.760 --> 49:51.920 For example, a web application written to standard will run on either Tomcat or Jetty web servers on Linux, Windows, Solaris, or even Mac. 49:52.220 --> 49:56.540 A simple J2ME application would run on a Nokia or Sony Ericsson mobile phone. 49:57.040 --> 50:04.100 Obviously, this is broken when you start including vendor-specific code, but this practice is only really common with J2ME. 50:05.760 --> 50:11.300 And that's kind of what I was alluding to about Java applets in general and vendor-specific code. 50:11.300 --> 50:14.000 In this case, he's talking about cell phones in the ME environment. 50:14.000 --> 50:19.300 But the same potential exists or does not exist in the PC environment. 50:19.420 --> 50:27.340 Like I said earlier, if you've got external third-party libraries that you can buy or something like that, won't the same situation come up? 50:29.820 --> 50:34.960 Or support for PC hardware, drivers, things like that? 50:34.960 --> 50:40.980 I mean, does it use – see, we're probably getting into way too many nuts and bolts details of it at this point, though. 50:42.040 --> 50:44.520 So maybe I should just back off those questions for another day. 50:45.020 --> 50:50.680 If you're looking – if your question – I'm not totally clear on what you're asking, but if you're asking, 50:50.680 --> 50:59.100 is there a way for a Java applet or application or something like that to get to, like, hardware-specific functionality on your PC, 50:59.280 --> 51:01.600 like maybe access some type of USB device? 51:01.700 --> 51:02.640 Yes, there is, actually. 51:03.240 --> 51:03.480 Right. 51:03.580 --> 51:10.340 And would that – if you use those – and it's not part of the standard API – if you use those on Windows, 51:10.340 --> 51:14.360 they're not necessarily going to port over. 51:14.520 --> 51:16.380 So not theory, obviously, just got dropped. 51:16.900 --> 51:20.700 So I'm going to keep talking and wait for him to call back in or hope that he calls back in. 51:21.480 --> 51:24.700 And then I'm probably going to have to repeat all of this to him when he does call back in. 51:24.780 --> 51:30.780 So let's see how long I can stall and keep the show going and hear my wonderful, wonderful redneck voice 51:30.780 --> 51:34.760 before we get the Yankee back on the phone. 51:35.620 --> 51:36.600 Hey, what's up? 51:36.600 --> 51:45.600 I am on the beautiful New York State subway, and I just got cut off at mile marker 117. 51:46.420 --> 51:47.500 So I'll remember it next time. 51:47.600 --> 51:48.900 117, it says bye. 51:49.080 --> 51:49.640 There you go. 51:50.160 --> 51:50.420 All right. 51:50.480 --> 51:57.180 Well, I was just talking and saying that, you know, if there are drivers or whatever to interface with a USB device 51:57.180 --> 52:01.400 or whatever you talked about, they would work in Windows, but they would or would not necessarily work 52:01.400 --> 52:04.860 if you wanted to port that same Java applet over to Linux. 52:04.860 --> 52:09.860 I would think that they wouldn't because the way Windows interfaces with devices is different 52:09.860 --> 52:12.380 than the way that Linux interfaces with devices. 52:12.520 --> 52:15.440 So therefore, I would think that that makes your code immediately non-portable. 52:16.520 --> 52:18.160 Well, hold on a second. 52:18.740 --> 52:19.080 Okay. 52:19.660 --> 52:20.040 Okay. 52:20.040 --> 52:26.280 I forgot exactly where I saw this, but I think it was Microsoft Robotics. 52:26.380 --> 52:33.920 If you Google Microsoft Robotics, I believe they have a board that you can hook up to your PC 52:33.920 --> 52:38.940 that has like, you know, 10 relays or something on it as you control different devices. 52:39.520 --> 52:43.500 Now, you can program this thing in C Sharp or Visual Basic.net or whatever, 52:43.500 --> 52:47.040 but they actually also have Java support for it too, which confused me. 52:47.120 --> 52:50.740 I was like, okay, USB piece of hardware that's got some weird stuff all over it. 52:50.740 --> 52:51.780 How does that fit Java? 52:52.500 --> 52:57.720 Well, they wrote drivers for Windows and they wrote drivers for Linux, 52:57.960 --> 53:01.200 and there's this thing called JNI, which is the Java Native Interface, 53:01.640 --> 53:07.380 which is basically a way that Java can have an interface on Windows, on DLL, 53:07.380 --> 53:10.720 or on linuxa.so file. 53:10.920 --> 53:15.380 So the thing is, your application's always talking to that JNI object, 53:15.960 --> 53:18.060 so it doesn't care whether it's on Windows or Linux. 53:18.200 --> 53:19.500 Your application is portable. 53:19.660 --> 53:25.760 You just need to have that DLL or SO on the machine and that JNI library to do it. 53:25.800 --> 53:29.120 So you do need, there is like kind of like a middleware piece that connects them, 53:29.500 --> 53:32.140 that connects Java to the driver, but as long as you have that, 53:32.220 --> 53:34.940 the actual application that you deploy doesn't change at all. 53:35.640 --> 53:37.380 So it's a piece of middleware. 53:37.500 --> 53:40.520 It's another, basically a plug-in or another part of the virtual machine. 53:40.640 --> 53:44.480 It's another virtual machine, or it's, you have to have the libraries. 53:44.560 --> 53:47.780 And that's why I was saying earlier about can't those be packaged into the JAR files 53:47.780 --> 53:51.880 so you don't have to deliver or expect people to have those extra things. 53:52.540 --> 53:56.420 I don't think that those can be packaged into the JAR files because, again, 53:56.500 --> 54:00.200 I think for security reasons they don't want you to be able to distribute something to somebody. 54:00.580 --> 54:01.940 Like the whole point of Java is that you're sandboxed. 54:01.940 --> 54:09.400 So unless the person wants to go out of their way to install this library that can get direct access 54:09.400 --> 54:12.780 to their USB hardware, you're not going to be able to get to it. 54:12.780 --> 54:21.160 So I think that in that case you wouldn't be able to do that to install that create your JAR file. 54:21.740 --> 54:22.980 I think that makes sense, though. 54:23.040 --> 54:25.140 Like if you want to get to the hardware, there's got to be, 54:25.700 --> 54:31.140 there has to be some type of connection for you to get from this protected language to, you know, 54:31.220 --> 54:33.600 C or whatever the drivers have to do. 54:33.680 --> 54:34.720 That I'm fine with it. 54:34.800 --> 54:36.220 I think that's okay. 54:36.220 --> 54:41.880 Well, especially that makes sense, and that goes back to what he was saying in the email about for mobile environments, 54:41.960 --> 54:47.380 yeah, you have to have the stuff from Nokia to access their hardware, et cetera. 54:47.680 --> 54:49.360 So that makes perfect sense, yeah. 54:50.960 --> 54:54.880 All right, we are never going to get through, we're not even going to get through the emails, 54:55.000 --> 54:56.040 let alone the main topic. 54:56.120 --> 55:00.580 So I'm going to try to read faster and not stop every five seconds, Armageddon. 55:01.600 --> 55:02.000 Armageddon. 55:02.000 --> 55:03.660 All right, let's see. 55:04.040 --> 55:07.340 When talking about Java, everyone gets hung up on the virtual machine. 55:07.940 --> 55:12.780 While it is true that you have to download and install a Java virtual machine in order to run any Java application, 55:13.200 --> 55:16.280 you also have to install the .NET framework to run a .NET application. 55:16.400 --> 55:17.360 I think we said that before. 55:17.820 --> 55:20.200 .NET uses the CLR, or Common Language Runtime, 55:20.280 --> 55:23.380 which executes the .NET equivalent to Java bytecode on the system. 55:23.780 --> 55:27.980 This is how .NET code can be written in C Sharp or VB.NET and even run on Linux using Mono. 55:27.980 --> 55:31.960 The same goes for pre- .NET VB days when you need the Visual Basic Runtime files installed. 55:32.560 --> 55:36.720 Absolutely, I don't think we mentioned Visual Basic, but we have absolutely the same thing. 55:37.240 --> 55:40.740 To run a J2EE application, you don't use a J2EE virtual machine. 55:40.840 --> 55:48.880 You use the standard virtual machine, the J2EE container, e.g. Tomcat, such as Comcat, 55:49.040 --> 55:51.160 which will have the J2EE libraries. 55:51.280 --> 55:54.680 It is even possible to get microchips with Java virtual machines on them, 55:54.840 --> 55:58.480 allowing them to execute Java at a hardware level for embedded systems. 55:58.480 --> 56:12.300 For example, the IMSYSNAP model, TinyURL36QEQD, is a tiny embedded system like the Gumsticks, 56:12.440 --> 56:16.480 G-U-M-S-T-I-X.com, which runs native Java. 56:16.480 --> 56:21.440 I've got to tell everybody, by the way, if you haven't seen the Gumsticks platform before, 56:21.920 --> 56:24.380 I used it a little bit in my last job. 56:24.700 --> 56:25.740 It is really cool. 56:25.840 --> 56:32.220 It's pretty cheap, and it's got a decent amount of functionality, and they're pretty damn reliable. 56:32.360 --> 56:37.240 So I think it's like $99, and there's like a $50 add-on sound card, stuff like that. 56:37.280 --> 56:41.480 If you want to play with an extended Linux device cheaply, that's the way to do it. 56:41.480 --> 56:43.840 Another one is BlackSpan. 56:44.020 --> 56:45.560 If you Google BlackSpan, you'll see it. 56:45.960 --> 56:52.100 But like this guy was talking about, there is hardware out there that implements Java natively, 56:52.420 --> 56:55.440 and one of them is called the JSTAMP. 56:55.520 --> 56:56.860 There's a company called Parallax. 56:56.940 --> 57:01.720 They make a basic stamp that runs basic, but they make a JSTAMP, I believe, that runs Java as well. 57:01.760 --> 57:03.280 And I think it's decently fast. 57:03.720 --> 57:06.760 So Java isn't just for these big slow business apps. 57:06.860 --> 57:10.600 Like, you can really do a better program with it now, and it runs just fine. 57:12.480 --> 57:12.960 Cool. 57:14.240 --> 57:15.020 Let's see. 57:15.160 --> 57:18.080 Any class in Java extends from the base object. 57:18.200 --> 57:22.340 A Java bean is simply a Java object, which contains strings, numbers, and other objects, 57:22.660 --> 57:28.480 which meets the bean specification of having get and set methods for all its public variables. 57:29.820 --> 57:30.300 Ah. 57:31.080 --> 57:31.560 Interesting. 57:31.840 --> 57:32.720 I did not know that. 57:33.500 --> 57:36.900 You know, because I've asked a lot of people, what in the world is a bean? 57:37.680 --> 57:39.400 And nobody can really tell me. 57:39.400 --> 57:44.860 It sounds like it's just a predetermined specification, and if it falls within those parameters, it's called a bean? 57:44.940 --> 57:45.600 It's just a label? 57:46.600 --> 57:53.900 Well, I mean, it sounds to me like maybe something that's considered a bean has no publicly accessible data members 57:53.900 --> 57:56.800 except through, like, get and set method. 57:57.160 --> 58:05.000 So if you had, like, an elevator object, you could have, like, a get floor instead of accessing, like, you know, elevator.floor directly, 58:05.240 --> 58:05.960 something like that. 58:06.000 --> 58:08.140 So everything is wrapped behind one of those functions. 58:08.140 --> 58:10.880 So that's what it sounds like to me, but I could be wrong. 58:11.400 --> 58:15.520 Well, and that's something that, again, I would expect the IDE to have if I tell it, 58:15.660 --> 58:18.540 okay, I know in advance the application that I'm developing, 58:18.780 --> 58:23.040 and I know it to fit within the limitations of a quote-unquote bean. 58:23.040 --> 58:29.520 So I would think that there would be a way for it to make it easier for me to develop that by limiting 58:29.520 --> 58:36.180 or helping me get started writing something that falls within those bean restricted functionality. 58:36.180 --> 58:42.040 Yeah, I don't know that Eclipse does that, but Eclipse does make, you know, 58:42.100 --> 58:44.160 writing, like, getters and setters like that a lot easier. 58:44.280 --> 58:49.140 Like, you can just define all of your variables, and you can tell it generates all the getters and setters for me, 58:49.160 --> 58:51.520 and it just goes off because it writes a lot of code for you. 58:51.560 --> 58:57.720 So Eclipse is kind of there, and I guess if this really is conforming to the bean standard, 58:57.860 --> 59:00.360 Eclipse is kind of there and doing it all for you. 59:00.360 --> 59:05.500 But I'm sure that, you know, maybe there's some plug-in that I don't have that really does take care of all that. 59:06.180 --> 59:08.940 Okay, let's see. 59:09.020 --> 59:10.900 An applet, let's see, did we do that? 59:10.980 --> 59:12.340 A class, a Java bean. 59:12.360 --> 59:16.180 Okay, an applet is deployable Java application designed to run client-side in a web browser 59:16.180 --> 59:18.540 and has a restricted functionality for security purpose. 59:18.980 --> 59:22.940 A servlet is a Java application designed solely to run inside a web server. 59:23.100 --> 59:24.560 I think we did get those right. 59:25.240 --> 59:31.820 While it is possible to use JSPs, JSPs, JSPs, JSPs in the same way as ASP, 59:32.060 --> 59:34.280 with code included in, quote, scriptlets. 59:34.280 --> 59:36.940 Oh, yeah, great, another Java term, just what we needed. 59:37.600 --> 59:39.260 This is not the preferred behavior. 59:39.400 --> 59:42.860 The normal method is to have a servlet, which performs all the logic of an application 59:42.860 --> 59:45.820 and then calls a JSP, which will format and display this information. 59:46.280 --> 59:49.900 This is similar to the .NET method of, quote, code behind, 59:50.600 --> 59:54.080 where the ASPX page calls a DLL to perform business logic, 59:54.220 --> 59:57.600 but from a, quote, code in front method. 59:58.220 --> 01:00:00.880 Now, I'm not familiar with those terms in relation to .NET, 01:00:00.880 --> 01:00:02.320 but that makes sense to me, so. 01:00:04.100 --> 01:00:07.600 JBoss, WebSphere, and WebLogic are all Java application servers, 01:00:07.700 --> 01:00:10.020 which implement the complete J2EE specification, 01:00:10.720 --> 01:00:12.620 whereas Tomcat and Jetty are web servers 01:00:12.620 --> 01:00:16.640 and only implement the more basic web-based parts of the J2EE specification. 01:00:17.140 --> 01:00:20.500 For hosting a web application, JBoss and the others are seriously overkill 01:00:20.500 --> 01:00:21.760 and only really necessary, 01:00:22.260 --> 01:00:26.180 where the web presents a small proportion of your application requirements. 01:00:26.180 --> 01:00:30.120 By the way, JBoss was bought by Red Hat about 12 months ago. 01:00:30.600 --> 01:00:32.520 Thanks for the excellent show, Pixel. 01:00:34.100 --> 01:00:34.540 Okay. 01:00:35.800 --> 01:00:36.780 Another good email. 01:00:38.160 --> 01:00:38.840 Yeah, definitely. 01:00:39.040 --> 01:00:41.000 I learned a lot more from that one, too. 01:00:41.080 --> 01:00:41.680 Thank you, Pixel. 01:00:41.820 --> 01:00:44.040 Excellent show because you guys are writing in great emails, 01:00:44.240 --> 01:00:49.200 and, you know, once again, this show is about us learning a lot of this stuff, too, 01:00:49.200 --> 01:00:52.060 you know, and opening the dialogue with people out there 01:00:52.060 --> 01:00:56.080 that definitely have more, obviously have more experience and knowledge 01:00:56.080 --> 01:00:57.340 in a certain subject matter, 01:00:57.400 --> 01:00:58.980 and this is definitely one of them for me. 01:00:59.960 --> 01:01:01.140 So, that is cool. 01:01:01.220 --> 01:01:02.720 Now, we're like an hour in. 01:01:02.940 --> 01:01:05.000 There is another enormously long email. 01:01:05.180 --> 01:01:05.960 I'm going to, 01:01:07.180 --> 01:01:08.600 I'm going to try. 01:01:08.740 --> 01:01:09.840 We're never going to get through with it, 01:01:09.860 --> 01:01:11.500 so I'm going to read this one super fast, 01:01:11.560 --> 01:01:13.120 and I'm probably going to skip over some parts. 01:01:13.780 --> 01:01:15.600 So, this email from Pernikin, 01:01:15.880 --> 01:01:16.580 I apologize. 01:01:16.880 --> 01:01:19.900 I'm going to chop it up for the sake of time. 01:01:21.360 --> 01:01:21.860 Let's see. 01:01:21.900 --> 01:01:22.540 Pernikin says, 01:01:22.660 --> 01:01:26.420 Props to the DDP for showing that hacking is about gaining knowledge 01:01:26.420 --> 01:01:27.760 and understanding through experimentation, 01:01:28.060 --> 01:01:30.360 not about abusing technology for personal advancement. 01:01:30.740 --> 01:01:33.540 I've been listening to the Minerip podcast for a good while now, 01:01:33.560 --> 01:01:34.280 and I've learned a lot. 01:01:34.840 --> 01:01:38.080 Also, props to Stankdog and Not Theory for giving Java a chance. 01:01:38.900 --> 01:01:39.260 Armageddon! 01:01:40.420 --> 01:01:41.060 Oh, no, wait. 01:01:41.140 --> 01:01:43.100 I guess we are giving Java a chance. 01:01:43.120 --> 01:01:44.680 Actually, I give everything a chance. 01:01:44.760 --> 01:01:47.000 I just need somebody to answer my questions. 01:01:47.120 --> 01:01:47.520 When I say, 01:01:47.680 --> 01:01:48.840 Why the fuck doesn't this work? 01:01:48.880 --> 01:01:49.840 Or, Why doesn't that work? 01:01:49.860 --> 01:01:50.780 Or, Why is this happening? 01:01:51.260 --> 01:01:53.620 And no one can ever explain it to me. 01:01:54.240 --> 01:01:56.620 Then, yeah, I have a tendency to dismiss Java and say, 01:01:56.700 --> 01:01:59.320 Look, nobody seems to know what the hell Java is all about. 01:01:59.560 --> 01:02:01.600 So, yeah, I kind of get frustrated and dismiss it. 01:02:01.740 --> 01:02:04.260 So, I'm glad we did bring this back up. 01:02:05.860 --> 01:02:06.420 Let's see. 01:02:06.540 --> 01:02:09.640 Now, he asked the audience to write in and explain some of the main ideas. 01:02:10.820 --> 01:02:12.780 I've been programming Java for about five years. 01:02:12.780 --> 01:02:14.000 It's professional and it's a hobby. 01:02:14.740 --> 01:02:20.720 First of all, the word Java is used as a sort of universal moniker that can cause a lot of confusion for newcomers. 01:02:20.760 --> 01:02:23.540 When someone says Java, they can be referring to at least one of three things. 01:02:24.300 --> 01:02:25.540 One, the Java language. 01:02:25.800 --> 01:02:26.080 Okay. 01:02:26.080 --> 01:02:27.620 I understand the difference. 01:02:28.140 --> 01:02:30.180 Java API, which depends on your platform. 01:02:30.280 --> 01:02:30.980 I'll explain below. 01:02:31.420 --> 01:02:32.780 And the Java virtual machine. 01:02:32.900 --> 01:02:35.520 And we talked about all of them earlier in the show. 01:02:36.160 --> 01:02:40.860 So, let me skim through some of this because we've already clarified those three separate portions. 01:02:41.000 --> 01:02:43.240 Which I'm glad, him breaking it down is very good too though. 01:02:43.240 --> 01:02:47.100 So, the Java language refers to the actual language, etc. 01:02:48.480 --> 01:02:50.820 On the show, you talk about the Java object class. 01:02:50.920 --> 01:02:58.540 This is kind of a technicality, but the base Java class, the object class, serves as a super class for all object types defined in Java. 01:02:58.540 --> 01:03:00.200 And it has a number of public methods. 01:03:00.340 --> 01:03:03.580 Every object type or class in Java inherits these methods. 01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:07.080 And they choose to override some subset of them. 01:03:07.900 --> 01:03:10.580 I think that's getting into some detail about Java coding. 01:03:10.840 --> 01:03:14.280 And I'm going to have to, we don't have time to go into that, unfortunately. 01:03:16.580 --> 01:03:21.440 Without getting into the details of object-oriented program, here are some differences between Java and C++. 01:03:22.120 --> 01:03:24.280 Which most BinRev listeners are probably familiar with. 01:03:24.400 --> 01:03:26.220 One, Java is type safe. 01:03:26.220 --> 01:03:29.820 Java is strongly object-oriented. 01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:32.700 All user-defined data types are derivatives of the object class. 01:03:32.780 --> 01:03:33.440 We just said that. 01:03:34.640 --> 01:03:37.420 There's some built-in language support for multi-threaded applications. 01:03:38.040 --> 01:03:39.140 Better exception handling. 01:03:39.440 --> 01:03:42.180 And garbage collection, which you talked about earlier as well. 01:03:43.880 --> 01:03:50.140 And he puts in parentheses, which is actually implemented in the virtual machine, but the language assumes that garbage collection occurs. 01:03:51.180 --> 01:03:52.600 So, we did mention that earlier. 01:03:53.320 --> 01:03:53.520 Right. 01:03:53.520 --> 01:03:59.760 Okay, the second, the Java API refers to the library of classes that are available for the programmer to work with in the Java language. 01:04:00.300 --> 01:04:03.480 Again, sorry to chop up your email, but we did talk about that a little bit earlier. 01:04:03.480 --> 01:04:10.260 And that's where we talked about using the standard APIs that come with it to do just about anything you want to do. 01:04:10.260 --> 01:04:14.680 And it sounds like, from what I've heard from everybody, that they'll do just about anything you want. 01:04:14.740 --> 01:04:25.980 If you're going outside of that standard API, you're doing something different and unusual where you have to use these other things, like the Nokia development kit or whatever specific thing you're doing. 01:04:26.040 --> 01:04:27.880 You're going to need something on top of that. 01:04:27.880 --> 01:04:31.860 But generally speaking, it sounds like it's got quite a bit of the base stuff with it. 01:04:33.540 --> 01:04:36.780 If you want to write for your mobile device, you're going to have support for that. 01:04:36.920 --> 01:04:39.000 Okay, yeah, we just kind of alluded to that. 01:04:39.960 --> 01:04:43.240 As not theory put it, J2EE is for building huge bloated enterprise apps. 01:04:43.320 --> 01:04:45.560 And I'm still not sure what a Java bean is. 01:04:46.240 --> 01:04:47.200 Well, guess what? 01:04:47.200 --> 01:04:47.920 Now you know. 01:04:49.920 --> 01:04:53.180 So, see, we're all learning, see, as we go along here. 01:04:53.800 --> 01:04:57.040 The third thing that people use the word Java for is the Java virtual machine. 01:04:57.340 --> 01:04:59.180 Again, sorry, we talked about that. 01:05:00.420 --> 01:05:04.020 Actually, no, I'm going to read this because he's got some things in here I think he's more clear about. 01:05:05.300 --> 01:05:08.900 Java is, in theory, right, once run everywhere, which is definitely an overstatement. 01:05:09.020 --> 01:05:11.740 See, here's an experienced Java person admitting and agreeing with me. 01:05:11.940 --> 01:05:12.660 It's an overstatement. 01:05:12.800 --> 01:05:17.180 It uses a software interpreter program called the virtual machine to allow cross-platform support. 01:05:18.120 --> 01:05:23.420 Basically, Java code is written to run in the virtual machine, which handles all or at least a lot of the platform-specific details. 01:05:23.820 --> 01:05:27.540 When one compiles a Java program, the Java source code is compiled into an inter... 01:05:27.540 --> 01:05:28.340 And this is important. 01:05:28.900 --> 01:05:37.000 When one compiles a Java program, the Java source code is compiled into an intermediate format called bytecode, 01:05:37.560 --> 01:05:40.160 which is in turn executed by the virtual machine. 01:05:40.620 --> 01:05:45.080 The idea is that by writing a program in the Java language using the Java APIs for that platform, 01:05:45.080 --> 01:05:49.460 it can be run on any platform device that has the virtual machine software installed. 01:05:49.940 --> 01:05:54.080 There are many virtual machines available, but the most popular is Sun's Hotspot JVM, 01:05:54.160 --> 01:05:56.460 but that's not to say that it's the best. 01:05:58.640 --> 01:05:58.960 Okay. 01:06:00.060 --> 01:06:00.540 I don't... 01:06:00.540 --> 01:06:01.340 You know what I forgot to do? 01:06:01.380 --> 01:06:03.120 I forgot to get on my iced tea before we did the show, 01:06:03.220 --> 01:06:05.840 so my voice is starting to get out here a little bit. 01:06:07.520 --> 01:06:10.320 Don't forget, you can scream at Armageddon at any time, even though I'm going quickly. 01:06:11.120 --> 01:06:12.680 No, I didn't want to interrupt you, so... 01:06:12.680 --> 01:06:13.080 Okay. 01:06:13.340 --> 01:06:16.960 Also, you touched on this in the show, but Java is useful for more than just web stuff. 01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:19.140 Yep, we did talk about that. 01:06:19.220 --> 01:06:21.840 Applet, Servlets, JSP, we just went through that, unfortunately. 01:06:22.100 --> 01:06:22.900 Gosh, I hate... 01:06:22.900 --> 01:06:23.320 This guy's... 01:06:23.320 --> 01:06:24.560 He wrote a long email. 01:06:24.660 --> 01:06:27.500 I might post this in the forums or something, because it's got a lot of great stuff, 01:06:28.500 --> 01:06:32.340 where he breaks down the differences between applets and servlets and JSP, 01:06:32.340 --> 01:06:35.100 but I think we were right about that the first time. 01:06:35.220 --> 01:06:37.600 I think when we talked about all of them, we were pretty accurate with that, 01:06:37.700 --> 01:06:39.640 and we've confirmed that, so I'm going to skip that. 01:06:41.020 --> 01:06:45.180 The last thing he mentions here is, going back to write once, run anywhere. 01:06:45.960 --> 01:06:49.220 Java is very far from being entirely cross-platform. 01:06:49.680 --> 01:06:52.820 The quote, write once, run anywhere, quote, end quote, 01:06:52.900 --> 01:06:56.700 is completely impossible to achieve on the breadth of platforms that Java supports. 01:06:56.980 --> 01:06:58.060 And that's all I've ever said. 01:06:59.480 --> 01:07:00.820 I wasn't dismissing it. 01:07:00.820 --> 01:07:03.620 When I say that statement, I'm just saying, let's be truthful. 01:07:03.820 --> 01:07:07.680 It's write once, run in a lot of places, but not quite anywhere. 01:07:07.880 --> 01:07:09.200 That's what I think I should say. 01:07:09.980 --> 01:07:10.500 That's true. 01:07:11.340 --> 01:07:12.940 Run most anywhere. 01:07:13.180 --> 01:07:13.980 Run most places. 01:07:15.620 --> 01:07:19.380 Of course, you're not going to be able to write software for your Linux box that runs on your phone, 01:07:19.440 --> 01:07:22.540 but if you wanted to write a graphical application that runs on both Linux and Windows, 01:07:22.600 --> 01:07:23.740 you can do so with Java. 01:07:24.420 --> 01:07:26.900 This is why I first got into Java for my personal projects, 01:07:26.980 --> 01:07:29.280 because I didn't want my programs to be limited to just Windows or Linux. 01:07:29.280 --> 01:07:35.700 Of course, very admirable, you know, what it's attempted to do, very admirable idea, just not quite delivered. 01:07:36.560 --> 01:07:37.900 Java offered me a way to do that. 01:07:37.980 --> 01:07:39.980 Sure, you have to download and install a virtual machine. 01:07:40.100 --> 01:07:40.520 Big deal. 01:07:40.760 --> 01:07:41.920 And, yeah, I agree with that, too. 01:07:41.940 --> 01:07:42.260 Big deal. 01:07:42.620 --> 01:07:46.700 You have to have an operating system with properly installed drivers on your computer for other software to run, 01:07:46.700 --> 01:07:48.660 and this is obviously commonly accepted. 01:07:49.560 --> 01:07:50.120 Oh, wait a minute. 01:07:50.160 --> 01:07:51.020 No, holy crap. 01:07:51.120 --> 01:07:51.480 I got... 01:07:51.480 --> 01:07:52.320 Yeah, okay. 01:07:52.380 --> 01:07:52.980 I didn't... 01:07:52.980 --> 01:07:54.580 I thought I skipped a sentence there, but no. 01:07:54.780 --> 01:07:55.920 I agree with that completely. 01:07:56.040 --> 01:07:56.840 So, let me... 01:07:56.840 --> 01:08:00.620 In case I came across wrong before, it's not a big deal. 01:08:01.480 --> 01:08:02.780 I'm not saying it's a problem. 01:08:02.780 --> 01:08:08.400 I'm just saying that people need to understand that you do have to go out of your way to do some installation 01:08:08.400 --> 01:08:11.900 and to do prepare your environment a lot. 01:08:12.440 --> 01:08:14.060 I'm not saying it's bad or wrong. 01:08:14.140 --> 01:08:18.040 I'm just saying let's not forget to make that point when we talk about how great Java is 01:08:18.040 --> 01:08:20.280 that you do have to do a lot of setup work. 01:08:20.500 --> 01:08:23.980 We also mentioned on that last show that you'd have to do the same thing for .NET. 01:08:24.120 --> 01:08:24.680 I'm not naive. 01:08:24.680 --> 01:08:27.160 I'm not saying it's better, worse, different than anything else. 01:08:27.720 --> 01:08:28.420 It's the same. 01:08:28.580 --> 01:08:30.920 It's similar to everything else as far as that goes. 01:08:32.480 --> 01:08:33.540 Last paragraph here. 01:08:33.860 --> 01:08:36.820 But the write-once-run-anywhere idea breaks down for another reason. 01:08:37.240 --> 01:08:40.880 Even if there is a flawless virtual machine available for every Java platform, 01:08:41.020 --> 01:08:44.240 which perfectly implements the Java API for that platform, 01:08:44.580 --> 01:08:47.420 it's still hard to make your own code cross-platform. 01:08:47.820 --> 01:08:51.300 A lot of the shortcuts that you might want to take won't work well in every environment, 01:08:51.560 --> 01:08:53.740 and that limits the portability of your code as well. 01:08:53.740 --> 01:09:00.840 But in my experience, Java satisfies my niche requirement of cross-platformity between Windows and Linux quite well. 01:09:01.680 --> 01:09:03.480 Anyway, I guess this turned into a long email. 01:09:03.600 --> 01:09:04.220 Gee, I think. 01:09:04.540 --> 01:09:05.880 And I skipped most of it. 01:09:06.120 --> 01:09:08.100 But I hope it helped explain some more about Java. 01:09:08.700 --> 01:09:09.820 I really dig this show. 01:09:09.820 --> 01:09:12.520 Another great email. 01:09:12.640 --> 01:09:14.840 Wow, this is probably the best email show we've ever had. 01:09:14.960 --> 01:09:17.300 So, Pernikin, big shouts out to you. 01:09:17.420 --> 01:09:17.920 Great email. 01:09:18.080 --> 01:09:19.860 Sorry I had to jump through quite a bit of it. 01:09:20.460 --> 01:09:22.700 But I might have to put this up in the forums if you don't mind. 01:09:22.740 --> 01:09:25.240 Or maybe I'll ask you to post it in the forums. 01:09:25.320 --> 01:09:28.140 That way you're inherently giving permission to post it there. 01:09:28.140 --> 01:09:31.440 Anyway, let's see. 01:09:31.480 --> 01:09:32.680 How are we on time here? 01:09:33.840 --> 01:09:35.660 We did have a couple other emails. 01:09:35.880 --> 01:09:39.480 I'm going to skip over those because I think we've beaten Java to death for this episode. 01:09:40.180 --> 01:09:41.300 So, that's definitely our main topic. 01:09:41.400 --> 01:09:45.600 Ended up being Java, the redux, redux, redo, whatever. 01:09:46.480 --> 01:09:47.040 I've heard it. 01:09:47.040 --> 01:09:49.640 Let's see. 01:09:49.720 --> 01:09:52.220 We'll do a couple quick emails since we have a little bit of time here. 01:09:52.300 --> 01:09:53.760 An email from Iron Geek. 01:09:54.220 --> 01:09:54.900 Iron Geek says, 01:09:55.000 --> 01:09:57.060 Hi, stank-a-dank-a-dee-dank. 01:09:57.200 --> 01:09:57.880 And co-host. 01:09:58.660 --> 01:10:01.140 One caveat to the asking about a person's accent. 01:10:01.240 --> 01:10:04.020 To try to endear yourself to them while S-E-ing. 01:10:04.080 --> 01:10:08.960 So, he's referring to the social engineering episode we did last, well, last month, I guess. 01:10:09.000 --> 01:10:09.880 I can't say last week. 01:10:10.220 --> 01:10:10.920 Last episode. 01:10:12.440 --> 01:10:14.500 Sometimes an accent isn't really an accent. 01:10:14.620 --> 01:10:15.540 It's a speech impediment. 01:10:15.540 --> 01:10:18.160 I have people ask me all the time where I'm from. 01:10:18.640 --> 01:10:21.360 My buddy says I should tell women I'm from Latveria. 01:10:21.580 --> 01:10:22.640 Keep up the good work. 01:10:23.780 --> 01:10:25.100 And he has a link to Wikipedia. 01:10:25.260 --> 01:10:26.940 You can go to Wikipedia and look up Latveria. 01:10:27.020 --> 01:10:30.900 But, of course, Latveria is the home of Dr. Doom himself. 01:10:31.320 --> 01:10:32.440 So, I don't know. 01:10:33.420 --> 01:10:37.060 If I lived in Latveria, I'd have to kick Dr. Doom's ass and take the place over. 01:10:37.180 --> 01:10:37.920 But that's just me. 01:10:39.360 --> 01:10:40.380 You ever been to Latveria? 01:10:41.960 --> 01:10:43.660 I've never even heard of it. 01:10:43.660 --> 01:10:44.620 That's because it's fictional. 01:10:45.540 --> 01:10:48.720 I know that, but you've obviously heard of it. 01:10:48.920 --> 01:10:50.360 I was wishing you would say yes. 01:10:50.400 --> 01:10:51.020 That would have been cool. 01:10:51.920 --> 01:10:53.700 But, no, you can't play along with the joke. 01:10:53.780 --> 01:10:54.640 You've got to be difficult. 01:10:54.960 --> 01:10:56.440 Why do I ever have you on the show? 01:10:56.540 --> 01:10:57.160 I swear to God. 01:10:57.200 --> 01:10:58.480 I should just hang up on you right now. 01:10:59.060 --> 01:10:59.640 Wait a second. 01:10:59.780 --> 01:11:00.380 We're on the show. 01:11:01.840 --> 01:11:04.060 Actually, it would have been funny there if you would have hung up on me. 01:11:04.060 --> 01:11:06.660 Okay, but don't do it now. 01:11:06.740 --> 01:11:07.500 Okay, we're almost done. 01:11:07.660 --> 01:11:08.220 Here we go. 01:11:08.640 --> 01:11:11.720 Next email comes from CyberPig. 01:11:12.880 --> 01:11:13.560 CyberPig says, 01:11:13.620 --> 01:11:15.920 Been listening to BinRev for a while now and enjoy the show. 01:11:16.280 --> 01:11:18.580 I'm listening to episode 194 about social engineering. 01:11:18.740 --> 01:11:20.060 And a question popped into my head. 01:11:20.120 --> 01:11:23.240 How does one know they're being socially engineered and to counter it? 01:11:23.240 --> 01:11:26.200 P.S., in case someone hasn't told you, 01:11:26.260 --> 01:11:29.160 the reference to LAMO was connected to the government-run computer forensic school 01:11:29.160 --> 01:11:31.820 in Hoover, Alabama in episode 193. 01:11:31.880 --> 01:11:33.420 I was wondering where the hell that came from. 01:11:34.240 --> 01:11:35.900 So, thanks for letting me know that, CyberPig. 01:11:35.940 --> 01:11:36.580 How do you know? 01:11:36.720 --> 01:11:37.140 Not theory. 01:11:37.200 --> 01:11:38.020 I'll let you feel that one. 01:11:38.020 --> 01:11:39.720 How do you know that you're being social engineered? 01:11:40.780 --> 01:11:41.860 Well, here's the thing. 01:11:41.860 --> 01:11:46.720 I can't ever be sure that I'm being social engineered, so I have a tactic. 01:11:47.120 --> 01:11:50.800 Anyone that I'm talking to, I lie about everything just in case. 01:11:51.120 --> 01:11:51.880 Just in case. 01:11:52.560 --> 01:11:53.120 Just in case. 01:11:53.200 --> 01:11:55.220 That way, if they can social engineering, they're all they want. 01:11:55.300 --> 01:11:56.540 They're never going to get the truth out. 01:11:56.820 --> 01:11:57.100 Well? 01:11:58.240 --> 01:12:01.500 It's, you know, it's obviously, it's hard to tell somebody who's social engineering, 01:12:01.600 --> 01:12:02.740 because that's the whole point. 01:12:02.900 --> 01:12:04.200 Like, they don't want you to tell. 01:12:04.360 --> 01:12:06.140 I actually do have a trick for this. 01:12:06.300 --> 01:12:09.060 I have a great trick that works for me every time. 01:12:10.300 --> 01:12:17.660 I carry with me at all times, no matter where I am, at all times of the day, 01:12:17.660 --> 01:12:19.300 whether I'm in my car, I'm in the office, 01:12:19.680 --> 01:12:21.460 I carry with me a small cactus. 01:12:22.680 --> 01:12:25.960 And any time I'm talking to people, and I think they might be lying, 01:12:26.020 --> 01:12:27.680 I just look at them and I go, cactus, cactus? 01:12:29.220 --> 01:12:31.560 And if they're telling a lie... 01:12:31.560 --> 01:12:33.160 All right, look, I'm giving a little shout out there. 01:12:33.200 --> 01:12:33.480 Shut up. 01:12:34.080 --> 01:12:35.020 All right, next email. 01:12:35.020 --> 01:12:36.960 The answer is, you're right. 01:12:37.040 --> 01:12:38.780 You can't know whether you're being social engineered. 01:12:38.900 --> 01:12:39.720 It's just a skill. 01:12:40.420 --> 01:12:43.140 I mean, it's just like, can you ever tell that you're being lied to? 01:12:43.200 --> 01:12:46.020 And if somebody's really good at it, it's harder to detect. 01:12:46.400 --> 01:12:48.940 The way to find out is to always question them. 01:12:49.020 --> 01:12:51.160 Don't let them use some of those techniques. 01:12:51.160 --> 01:12:54.740 If they're asking, if they're giving you vague responses or evasive in their answers, 01:12:55.380 --> 01:12:56.200 press a little bit harder. 01:12:56.300 --> 01:12:57.620 Don't be afraid and don't give up. 01:12:57.720 --> 01:12:58.480 Don't be lazy. 01:12:59.040 --> 01:13:02.060 A lot of times it's to your laziness you get tired of being asked questions. 01:13:02.160 --> 01:13:07.320 And I even mentioned that as a tactic to wear people down until they finally give up and don't care anymore. 01:13:07.720 --> 01:13:08.980 Don't let that happen to you. 01:13:10.760 --> 01:13:12.720 And yeah, it's just a feeling. 01:13:12.900 --> 01:13:15.420 It's just something you have to be able to tell and to have in you. 01:13:15.500 --> 01:13:18.700 So I really wish there was something easier to tell you how to detect it. 01:13:19.340 --> 01:13:23.120 The only answer I can say is to be thorough and ask a lot of questions. 01:13:23.260 --> 01:13:27.080 Make sure you ask enough questions so that you're comfortable. 01:13:27.340 --> 01:13:28.920 And now I have the hiccups at the end of the episode. 01:13:29.000 --> 01:13:29.680 That's going to be great. 01:13:30.140 --> 01:13:30.740 All right, perfect. 01:13:30.880 --> 01:13:31.660 This is good radio. 01:13:32.780 --> 01:13:33.980 My voice is giving away. 01:13:34.100 --> 01:13:34.800 I have the hiccups. 01:13:34.800 --> 01:13:36.200 I'm talking really fast. 01:13:37.320 --> 01:13:41.120 And we haven't had phone sex or yet, so. 01:13:41.960 --> 01:13:43.120 Why don't you cry about it? 01:13:43.780 --> 01:13:44.660 I just might. 01:13:44.960 --> 01:13:46.580 I'm going to wait until I get off the air, though. 01:13:46.780 --> 01:13:47.040 I'm not. 01:13:47.380 --> 01:13:49.440 I promised myself I wouldn't do this on the show. 01:13:51.120 --> 01:13:52.180 I'm getting perclept. 01:13:53.300 --> 01:13:54.280 Okay, it's fine. 01:13:54.720 --> 01:13:56.340 Next email comes from Crate. 01:13:56.700 --> 01:13:59.560 Crate says, okay, what the hell happened to episode 193? 01:13:59.660 --> 01:14:01.440 Is this the Children of BinRev episode? 01:14:02.120 --> 01:14:06.160 Actually, I quite enjoyed it and found it a refreshing reprieve from Stank's random innuendo, 01:14:06.160 --> 01:14:09.580 proving once again that Stank really is a dirty old man. 01:14:10.420 --> 01:14:11.700 I resent that fact. 01:14:11.960 --> 01:14:12.200 I am. 01:14:12.720 --> 01:14:14.780 No, I guess I exactly am a dirty old man. 01:14:15.640 --> 01:14:16.840 Everyone did a great job. 01:14:16.920 --> 01:14:17.260 I laughed. 01:14:17.340 --> 01:14:17.740 I had fun. 01:14:17.800 --> 01:14:20.340 And I learned, as I'm sure others did, wonderful job. 01:14:20.460 --> 01:14:24.280 So shout outs to everybody who helped out on episode 193. 01:14:24.500 --> 01:14:25.720 People did enjoy that. 01:14:25.720 --> 01:14:28.520 So good to hear some props every once in a while. 01:14:28.680 --> 01:14:34.240 Everybody likes to hear that somebody listened to and appreciated their work. 01:14:34.500 --> 01:14:37.320 So I will second that email from Crate. 01:14:39.680 --> 01:14:40.540 And let's see. 01:14:40.600 --> 01:14:41.220 Two more emails. 01:14:41.540 --> 01:14:43.140 Next email from DJ Mollisk. 01:14:43.980 --> 01:14:49.000 DJ Mollisk says, while listening to episode 194, Social Engineering, I had a BinRevgasm. 01:14:49.000 --> 01:14:51.700 Um, okay. 01:14:53.420 --> 01:14:54.100 All right. 01:14:54.540 --> 01:14:57.680 I've been waiting for the topic of what is social engineering to be addressed. 01:14:57.820 --> 01:15:00.860 Back in the days of Radio Freak America, there was an episode where this was discussed. 01:15:01.440 --> 01:15:05.020 Rax, who I have respect for, gave one of the most horrible responses, and that has stuck with me. 01:15:05.100 --> 01:15:07.920 Rax said that social engineering was a fancy euphemism for lying. 01:15:09.400 --> 01:15:09.760 Armageddon. 01:15:09.820 --> 01:15:10.420 Okay, let me interrupt. 01:15:10.420 --> 01:15:17.200 I agree with you completely, and Rax saying that, and he and I would argue about that off the show all the time, 01:15:17.300 --> 01:15:20.900 and he'd always make jokes about that's all it was, and I always hated that, 01:15:20.960 --> 01:15:22.480 so it's another reason I wanted to do that episode. 01:15:23.280 --> 01:15:24.420 So I feel you on that one. 01:15:24.860 --> 01:15:27.940 I noticed on episode 194 that things started to go in that direction as well, 01:15:28.000 --> 01:15:29.660 putting social engineering in the bed with lying. 01:15:30.120 --> 01:15:31.880 You can use social engineering without lying. 01:15:31.940 --> 01:15:34.080 I think we purposely tried to emphasize that. 01:15:34.320 --> 01:15:36.760 My whole thing was about social engineering with integrity. 01:15:36.760 --> 01:15:39.860 You do not have to sell yourself out and completely lie. 01:15:40.420 --> 01:15:44.040 You can tell someone the truth, but adjust the way you speak so that the person thinks it's a lie. 01:15:44.560 --> 01:15:47.540 Also, if you break it down, social engineering really is just using psychology. 01:15:47.740 --> 01:15:49.600 Absolutely, there are aspects of it for sure. 01:15:50.520 --> 01:15:53.500 Anticipating the response of others based on your actions. 01:15:54.020 --> 01:15:58.680 Once you break it down like that, it should be clear that social engineering is used everyone, 01:15:58.900 --> 01:16:00.580 everywhere, I think he means to say, with everyone. 01:16:01.000 --> 01:16:03.100 It is just part of our psychological defense system. 01:16:03.100 --> 01:16:08.340 Just because hackers can use it and use it to their means doesn't make it a hacker qualifier. 01:16:08.340 --> 01:16:11.500 So, thank you, DJ Mollusk. 01:16:11.500 --> 01:16:13.440 I don't think there's really anything more to say to that. 01:16:14.540 --> 01:16:20.460 And our last email this week is actually, this is actually an email from the future, not theory. 01:16:20.520 --> 01:16:22.040 This is actually kind of interesting. 01:16:22.900 --> 01:16:24.640 This email comes from King Vegeta. 01:16:24.640 --> 01:16:29.000 King Vegeta, I think it's pronounced Vegeta, I remember. 01:16:29.360 --> 01:16:33.920 King Vegeta, who says, in response to episode 220. 01:16:35.640 --> 01:16:39.940 Dear Stank, I'm writing to you in response to the piece of shit episode 220. 01:16:40.120 --> 01:16:41.100 That sucked, man. 01:16:41.220 --> 01:16:47.380 Your rants on how you prefer latex to rubber and butt plugs instead of cock pumps were sick. 01:16:47.880 --> 01:16:49.140 You are a perverted man. 01:16:49.140 --> 01:16:51.360 I will never listen to your show again. 01:16:51.920 --> 01:16:53.920 Note, this message is from the future. 01:16:57.480 --> 01:17:00.460 So, I guess we have to adjust. 01:17:00.580 --> 01:17:03.080 We actually had planned ahead for episode 220. 01:17:03.240 --> 01:17:04.700 It was going to be called the butt plug episode. 01:17:04.840 --> 01:17:09.080 And I guess, should we change that and risk changing the future? 01:17:09.200 --> 01:17:16.680 You know, if you kill a butterfly in the past, should we risk changing the topic for 220 now in advance, now that he's told us? 01:17:16.680 --> 01:17:19.460 Has he killed the butterfly and doomed us for all eternity? 01:17:22.100 --> 01:17:34.280 Or, are we now committed that we have to absolutely do episode 220, and it has to be about latex versus rubber and butt plugs and cock pumps, so we don't change the course of time? 01:17:34.320 --> 01:17:36.040 That's a lot of pressure to put on me, man. 01:17:36.480 --> 01:17:37.720 I'm just trying to do a radio show. 01:17:37.740 --> 01:17:39.080 Well, I just hope that we're forced to do that episode. 01:17:39.200 --> 01:17:40.180 It sounds like a great one. 01:17:40.500 --> 01:17:42.760 We might just do that one next week, Mr. Man. 01:17:43.280 --> 01:17:44.720 We might do that off the air. 01:17:44.720 --> 01:17:48.440 We might do that as soon as we stop recording in about five more minutes. 01:17:49.040 --> 01:17:49.360 Okay. 01:17:50.160 --> 01:17:53.000 So, yeah, well, one thanks. 01:17:53.120 --> 01:17:55.300 Back to the future you, by the way, King Vegeta. 01:17:55.440 --> 01:17:56.240 Thanks for the handjob. 01:17:56.420 --> 01:17:57.200 I appreciate that. 01:17:57.340 --> 01:17:58.360 That worked out really well. 01:17:59.240 --> 01:18:00.800 And also, I've got to ask, though. 01:18:01.400 --> 01:18:06.320 I guess sometime between now and episode 220, he changes from Prince Vegeta to King Vegeta. 01:18:06.320 --> 01:18:16.920 So, there's, somebody's kicking the bucket between now and 220, so I'm not sure what the backstory to that is, but he's King Vegeta in this email, and previous emails were, I think, Prince Vegeta. 01:18:16.920 --> 01:18:27.280 But, if he's the king, then, actually, I guess I should ask him, I wonder how I'm doing in my future position as supreme ruler of the universe. 01:18:28.000 --> 01:18:31.620 Because I'm hoping that by episode 220, I should be ruling with an iron fist. 01:18:31.620 --> 01:18:40.520 So, I guess let us know how that works out in the future, King Vegeta, if you do feel the need to write back. 01:18:41.440 --> 01:18:44.300 So, that's going to wrap up the show for this week. 01:18:45.220 --> 01:18:45.940 Let's see. 01:18:46.280 --> 01:18:47.180 No main topic. 01:18:47.420 --> 01:18:52.180 I guess that was our main topic, like I said before, so we'll bump this topic for a future episode. 01:18:52.840 --> 01:18:55.060 And I won't even say what it was, so how do you like that? 01:18:55.880 --> 01:18:56.860 Shouts for this week. 01:18:56.940 --> 01:19:00.300 I'll go ahead and give my shouts to all the people who emailed us earlier. 01:19:00.420 --> 01:19:01.100 Great emails. 01:19:01.240 --> 01:19:08.120 Probably the best email content show we've had in almost four complete seasons now that we're coming up on the end of our fourth season. 01:19:08.820 --> 01:19:12.000 Probably the best email episode we've ever had from day one. 01:19:12.140 --> 01:19:15.940 So, my shouts go to our listeners, one and all. 01:19:16.040 --> 01:19:23.480 Even if I didn't read your email on the show, you guys are giving a lot of great feedback, and I'm learning from the show every week as well, and that's why I enjoy doing it. 01:19:24.160 --> 01:19:25.800 What kind of shouts you got there, buddy? 01:19:27.080 --> 01:19:37.700 I got shouts to the people I got feedback from, Thorpe Freaker and the other guy whose handle I can't remember because it's too long, and Rigel. 01:19:37.880 --> 01:19:41.820 I haven't talked to Rigel in a while until this week, but caught up with him a bit. 01:19:42.000 --> 01:19:42.760 Seems to be doing well. 01:19:43.240 --> 01:19:44.700 I'll give some shouts to Decoder. 01:19:44.860 --> 01:19:46.040 I haven't done that on the air in a while. 01:19:46.100 --> 01:19:47.100 We talked a couple days ago. 01:19:48.060 --> 01:19:49.320 We talk once in a while. 01:19:49.540 --> 01:19:50.240 Shouts to Decoder. 01:19:50.960 --> 01:19:51.640 You know what? 01:19:51.700 --> 01:19:52.480 Shouts to Rosebud. 01:19:52.480 --> 01:19:54.300 Pass some shouts on to Rosebud for me, will you? 01:19:55.140 --> 01:19:55.560 All right. 01:19:55.640 --> 01:19:56.140 All right. 01:19:56.440 --> 01:19:57.320 And let's see. 01:19:57.560 --> 01:20:01.740 Hosting for Binary Revolution Radio is provided by caro.net. 01:20:01.940 --> 01:20:05.480 So, if you need hosting managed or otherwise, check them out. 01:20:05.920 --> 01:20:08.180 We appreciate them providing our bandwidth and hosting. 01:20:08.180 --> 01:20:13.020 Site of the week for this week is streetviewer.com. 01:20:13.060 --> 01:20:18.320 That's S-T-R-E-E-T-V-I-E-W-R.com. 01:20:18.380 --> 01:20:19.320 That's not W-E-R. 01:20:19.440 --> 01:20:21.920 That's V-I-E-W-R.com. 01:20:21.920 --> 01:20:27.260 And that is some pretty interesting pictures that people have found using that new Google 01:20:27.260 --> 01:20:33.840 Streets functionality Google added to Google Maps where you can actually see what it looks 01:20:33.840 --> 01:20:34.920 like from the street level. 01:20:35.040 --> 01:20:37.500 You can look at buildings and people on the sidewalks and stuff. 01:20:37.500 --> 01:20:41.660 And they actually captured some pretty interesting things that they probably didn't mean to 01:20:41.660 --> 01:20:45.580 or realize and didn't catch in the editing process if there was one. 01:20:46.260 --> 01:20:48.580 So, a lot of people have found some pretty funny pictures. 01:20:48.720 --> 01:20:49.740 So, go check that out. 01:20:50.240 --> 01:20:52.860 And by all means, share any other ones you may find. 01:20:52.860 --> 01:21:00.780 And, let's see, email us feedback of any kind to radio at binrev.com or you can contact 01:21:00.780 --> 01:21:06.100 nottheory directly at ntheory at bellsmind.net. 01:21:06.520 --> 01:21:10.820 So, if you have any feedback for Bell's Mind, as he said earlier, he only checks the forums, 01:21:10.920 --> 01:21:12.960 what, once a week, a couple times a week these days? 01:21:14.600 --> 01:21:16.320 Maybe twice a week at this point. 01:21:16.400 --> 01:21:18.840 Not the best place to get in contact with him. 01:21:18.940 --> 01:21:21.060 Email him if it's something about Bell's Mind. 01:21:21.060 --> 01:21:25.600 Don't let it be down for a week and not tell him about it. 01:21:25.860 --> 01:21:29.480 How many times have I called you and you're like, how long has it been down? 01:21:29.560 --> 01:21:30.640 No one has told you anything. 01:21:31.960 --> 01:21:34.240 Yeah, that's been quite a few times. 01:21:34.340 --> 01:21:34.700 Yep. 01:21:35.640 --> 01:21:37.460 And then we have phone sex until 3 a.m. 01:21:38.040 --> 01:21:41.720 Closing music this week is from, I don't think I've used this before. 01:21:41.840 --> 01:21:43.520 If I have, well, you're getting it again. 01:21:43.620 --> 01:21:45.700 This is from Emergency Pizza Party. 01:21:45.760 --> 01:21:49.480 This is actually a local, local to me here in Orlando or near, 01:21:49.480 --> 01:21:54.540 I think they're in the Orlando slash Tampa area, local nerdcore group, if you will. 01:21:54.880 --> 01:21:58.540 Emergency Pizza Party, the, well, the name I have on here is GAL. 01:21:58.720 --> 01:22:00.760 I don't know if that's an acronym or initials for something, 01:22:00.880 --> 01:22:02.860 but that's the closing track for this week. 01:22:03.580 --> 01:22:06.240 And, not theory, we are running out of time. 01:22:06.280 --> 01:22:06.960 We've got a couple minutes. 01:22:07.020 --> 01:22:07.640 You got anything else? 01:22:07.680 --> 01:22:09.080 You got any words of wisdom to impart? 01:22:09.080 --> 01:22:14.880 I've kind of been talking over the whole second half of the episode trying to pound this through. 01:22:15.100 --> 01:22:16.660 So, what else you got for us? 01:22:16.660 --> 01:22:17.120 Anything good? 01:22:18.400 --> 01:22:18.800 No. 01:22:19.040 --> 01:22:22.680 No, I'm just drained on the shell of my former self. 01:22:22.960 --> 01:22:24.020 There's nothing left to me. 01:22:24.300 --> 01:22:26.400 You want to sing Baby, Baby, Baby, I'm a Hacksaw? 01:22:28.400 --> 01:22:31.680 Baby, Baby, Baby, I'm a Hacksaw. 01:22:32.380 --> 01:22:32.960 How about Lollipra? 01:22:32.960 --> 01:22:33.380 You're good. 01:22:33.680 --> 01:22:34.300 You want to sing Lollipra? 01:22:34.300 --> 01:22:35.460 There's songs in that. 01:22:35.880 --> 01:22:36.700 I got Lollipra on. 01:22:36.700 --> 01:22:37.700 You want to sing Lollipra on with me? 01:22:37.700 --> 01:22:41.100 Maybe we'll save that for the... 01:22:41.100 --> 01:22:42.060 Come on, sing it with me. 01:22:42.100 --> 01:22:42.480 Grow a pair. 01:22:42.560 --> 01:22:42.840 Let's go. 01:22:42.900 --> 01:22:43.280 We're going to sing. 01:22:43.340 --> 01:22:43.480 Ready? 01:22:43.820 --> 01:22:44.940 One, two, three. 01:22:45.760 --> 01:22:49.740 Lollipra on, Lollipra on, oh, Lolli, Lolli, Lolli, Lollipra on. 01:22:51.020 --> 01:22:53.340 Oh, that makes it gross, though, the popping sound. 01:22:54.320 --> 01:22:57.460 Yeah, well, gross, hot, whatever you want to say. 01:22:59.020 --> 01:23:01.340 Gross, sexy, you know, whatever floats your boat. 01:23:02.780 --> 01:23:03.180 Seriously. 01:23:03.560 --> 01:23:04.480 How's that for a meme? 01:23:04.480 --> 01:23:07.720 Am I going to have everybody across the global interweb singing Lollipra on now? 01:23:08.420 --> 01:23:09.140 I sure hope so. 01:23:09.340 --> 01:23:10.020 I hope so, too. 01:23:10.080 --> 01:23:12.880 Please send in your renditions to RadioFinRev.com. 01:23:13.400 --> 01:23:18.440 And that is going to do it for us this week, possibly this month, this year. 01:23:18.540 --> 01:23:19.980 I don't know when we'll do another episode. 01:23:20.140 --> 01:23:21.380 We'll try to get one out next week. 01:23:21.480 --> 01:23:24.920 But if we don't, we will see you sometime in the near future. 01:23:25.440 --> 01:23:26.300 Same hack time. 01:23:27.260 --> 01:23:28.200 Same hack channel. 01:23:29.880 --> 01:23:30.520 Lollipra on. 01:23:30.520 --> 01:23:48.580 Your music is poop. 01:23:48.820 --> 01:23:50.560 Your music is poop. 01:23:50.560 --> 01:23:52.660 Your music is poop. 01:23:52.940 --> 01:23:54.660 We're wrapping the poop. 01:23:54.660 --> 01:23:58.940 Benjamin Bear, why do you hate nerdcore? 01:23:59.560 --> 01:24:03.340 Benjamin Bear, he's covered in cold sores. 01:24:03.460 --> 01:24:05.100 Well, if you don't like it, listen to the track. 01:24:05.180 --> 01:24:07.320 Don't be flippin' on me, cause my music is whack. 01:24:07.620 --> 01:24:09.420 I didn't know that I was so disliked. 01:24:09.660 --> 01:24:11.400 Maybe I should just put down the mic. 01:24:11.700 --> 01:24:15.100 Benjamin Bear, you need to get a life. 01:24:15.640 --> 01:24:17.540 Benjamin Bear, you're a big fat jerk. 01:24:17.600 --> 01:24:19.540 When you spit your shit, the microphone gets covered in turns. 01:24:19.660 --> 01:24:21.560 Everybody on the BBS knows you suck. 01:24:21.560 --> 01:24:23.680 And stop feelin' up on my boyfriend's butt. 01:24:23.900 --> 01:24:25.620 It's time for you to get a life that you don't care. 01:24:25.720 --> 01:24:27.620 Cause you're gettin' more plays than the average bear. 01:24:27.740 --> 01:24:29.720 Put your panties back on, we don't wanna see that. 01:24:29.800 --> 01:24:31.760 Don't flaunt that red-haired baby rap. 01:24:32.080 --> 01:24:33.860 Why you got me spittin' on this? 01:24:34.120 --> 01:24:35.900 Benjamin Bear sounds like a bitch. 01:24:36.020 --> 01:24:38.000 Skip this track, I'd rather smoke crack. 01:24:38.200 --> 01:24:39.940 Compare me, yeah, that's fair. 01:24:40.120 --> 01:24:42.200 110% better than B-Bear. 01:24:42.260 --> 01:24:44.080 I'm the one that brings the flair. 01:24:44.340 --> 01:24:46.020 Benjamin Bear, I hit and miss. 01:24:46.160 --> 01:24:48.140 I'd rather drink a jar of piss. 01:24:48.140 --> 01:24:49.560 Your music is poop. 01:24:49.920 --> 01:24:51.580 Your music is poop. 01:24:52.060 --> 01:24:53.660 Your music is poop. 01:24:54.080 --> 01:24:55.680 We're wrapping the poop. 01:24:56.440 --> 01:24:59.940 Benjamin Bear, why do you hate nerdcore? 01:25:00.480 --> 01:25:04.280 Benjamin Bear, he's covered in cold sores. 01:25:04.480 --> 01:25:06.140 Well, if you don't like it, listen to the track. 01:25:06.220 --> 01:25:08.340 Don't be flippin' on me, cause my music is whack. 01:25:08.340 --> 01:25:10.480 I didn't know that I was so disliked. 01:25:10.680 --> 01:25:12.480 Maybe I should just put down my mic. 01:25:12.760 --> 01:25:16.120 Benjamin Bear, you need to get a life. 01:25:16.720 --> 01:25:18.800 Yo, B-Bear, time to make you a bitch. 01:25:18.920 --> 01:25:20.560 Red hair, so we burn you like a witch. 01:25:20.600 --> 01:25:22.540 You got a smaller dick than any bear should. 01:25:22.740 --> 01:25:24.220 This track gives both feet the end. 01:25:24.300 --> 01:25:25.700 Shellwood, oh, does it burn? 01:25:25.780 --> 01:25:26.200 Does it sting? 01:25:26.260 --> 01:25:26.720 Does it hurt? 01:25:26.920 --> 01:25:28.220 All the good stuff and darks. 01:25:28.220 --> 01:25:28.940 I came from rain thirst. 01:25:29.060 --> 01:25:30.200 Does a bear shit in the woods? 01:25:30.260 --> 01:25:30.920 You might ask. 01:25:31.040 --> 01:25:32.820 Nah, B-Bear, he shits on the track. 01:25:33.020 --> 01:25:34.820 Benjamin Bear, you need to get yourself a life. 01:25:34.900 --> 01:25:36.880 You need to stop hittin' rocks from the crack pipe. 01:25:36.880 --> 01:25:38.920 You've been hurtin' nerdcore from day one. 01:25:39.000 --> 01:25:40.920 Your raps are poop and your beats are dumb. 01:25:41.000 --> 01:25:42.020 But I don't give a fuck. 01:25:42.080 --> 01:25:43.200 All this, you don't beat all. 01:25:43.280 --> 01:25:45.000 Look, you've been banned from the nerdcore documentary. 01:25:45.180 --> 01:25:47.040 It's gonna be a fault if we lose a song fight. 01:25:47.260 --> 01:25:49.060 Suck, B-Bear, you need to get a life. 01:25:49.220 --> 01:25:50.580 Your music is poop. 01:25:50.900 --> 01:25:52.600 Your music is poop. 01:25:53.080 --> 01:25:54.660 Your music is poop. 01:25:55.120 --> 01:25:56.640 We're rapping to poop. 01:25:57.520 --> 01:26:00.920 Benjamin Bear, why do you hate nerdcore? 01:26:01.640 --> 01:26:05.360 Benjamin Bear, he's covered in cold sores. 01:26:05.360 --> 01:26:07.380 Well, if you don't like it, let's send the track back. 01:26:07.460 --> 01:26:09.360 Don't be flippin' on me, cause my music is whack. 01:26:09.660 --> 01:26:11.480 I didn't know that I was so disliked. 01:26:11.700 --> 01:26:13.460 Maybe I should just put down the mic. 01:26:13.700 --> 01:26:17.140 Benjamin Bear, you need to get a life. 01:26:17.660 --> 01:26:19.580 Hangin' tops like a new kid on the block. 01:26:19.780 --> 01:26:21.920 Benjamin Bear, he be givin' no fuck. 01:26:22.080 --> 01:26:23.400 You're a stupid dumb cock. 01:26:23.560 --> 01:26:25.480 You can't even make this mic rock. 01:26:25.880 --> 01:26:26.880 Tryna bust a flow. 01:26:26.980 --> 01:26:27.900 You're an happy ass hoe. 01:26:27.980 --> 01:26:30.060 You blippin' us and I'm not that soul. 01:26:30.240 --> 01:26:31.560 Don't even try to rap. 01:26:31.560 --> 01:26:34.100 You're a nerd called Pussy, change your maxi pad. 01:26:34.340 --> 01:26:35.860 Make way for the worst in the game. 01:26:36.120 --> 01:26:37.740 Benjamin Bear, send it in for lame. 01:26:37.780 --> 01:26:39.680 I got the worst rhymes and the worst beats. 01:26:40.140 --> 01:26:41.880 Movin' a fight in the dark cold sea. 01:26:41.980 --> 01:26:43.980 When you're back down, Ben, you know what you can't rap. 01:26:44.220 --> 01:26:46.000 Self-enjoyin' when you rock that crap. 01:26:46.200 --> 01:26:48.020 Everyone knows that you're the worst in the land. 01:26:48.080 --> 01:26:50.120 Come up here right now, we're starting to jump in. 01:26:50.120 --> 01:26:55.220 You Conan O'Brien, AB1-lookin' motherfucker. 01:26:55.960 --> 01:26:58.220 You call yourself a bear. 01:26:59.000 --> 01:27:02.060 Benjamin Bear, you suck. 01:27:02.060 --> 01:27:13.620 Move an act when you rock that crap. 01:27:13.620 --> 01:27:43.600 Thank you.