This log is recorded on 24-08-1999. The conversation 's between nN, BlackB, CrackZ, [Lazarus]
and mEX-d34d and deals with "ethics" of cracking. You don't have to agree on what everybody
claims....there are just some good points to think about as a cracker or as a user that just
uses cracks!!

   BlackB


<nN> well actually, i don't like cracking simply because i find it restrictive to one's creativity
<BlackB> then why r u two on #cracking4newbies? :)
<BlackB> becoz u don't like cracking? ;p
<BlackB> funny
<CrackZ> because a lot of people here think very much the same
<nN> think about breaking a protection scheme...interesting, now think about ripping a code routine from a program and using it for your own purposes, which maybe are patching another program with the same routine, thus adding a function to it.
<CrackZ> you won't see hutch-- doing webwarez
<nN> which one does it sounds more interesting ?
<nN> and anyway
<BlackB> well, okay, cracking on itself is pretty boring....but when u cracked a program it gives me some satisfaction
* mEX-n00s is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog On]
<[LaZaRuS]> second one sounds like stealing of intellectual property ;)
<hutch--> Crackz, ya right
<nN> i'm here because i've got friends here, and because if i can give a little help to someone with my little experience, it's a nice thing to do.
<CrackZ> very few people crack for challenge sadly
<BlackB> nN: ur a nice person and if u were a girl, i'd kiss you :p
<CrackZ> else where are the HWinfo keygens
*** Joins: llama_ (llama@isp211.ana.unl.dynamite.com.au)
<CrackZ> and IDA keygens
<nN> but i AM a girl! ;)
<CrackZ> and the rest.
<BlackB> nn: ah yea.....i forgot *kiss* :pp
<CrackZ> nN rocks :-)
<llama_> fuck
<CrackZ> her picture 0wns.
<nN> lol
<BlackB> :)
<nN> true true =)
*** Joins: shannon- (Shannon@p6-max9.mel.ihug.com.au)
<CrackZ> the real ones not so good though :p
<nN> norc admitted i 0wn his britto ass inside out with my pic ;)
<nN> haha
<nN> bastid =)
<BlackB> crackz: i crack programs for.....1. myself 2. satisfaction 3. EVC 4. friends
<nN> yeah, another thing...crews....eww
<CrackZ> well you should probably only do 1.
<nN> i couldnt stand re-entering the crew scene
<[LaZaRuS]> heh, I only do 1 :)
<BlackB> hmmmm
<CrackZ> doing 4 or anything similar to 3 is not good.
<CrackZ> satisfaction should come with 1.
<BlackB> why not?
<BlackB> why 's cracking for a friend or a group wrong....according to u?
<CrackZ> well why crack for any group.
<CrackZ> or any friends.
*** Quits: [K]in[G] (Leaving)
<CrackZ> they should learn themselves
*** Joins: atzbani (jk@212.3.196.87)
*** Parts: _TK_ (Zorg@spc-isp-ham-uas-02-22.sprint.ca)
<CrackZ> and the lamers should buy the soft.
<CrackZ> not rely on the few who can crack it
<CrackZ> you ALL ought to buy SoftICE as a priority
<CrackZ> I really mean that
<BlackB> i don't have the money for that
<nN> well, but u're not considering the personal (natural) satisfaction of showing a friend how you can crack something
<[LaZaRuS]> yeah, send me the money
<BlackB> i'd like to pay for it....but hell it isn't cheap
<CrackZ> I know it isn't cheap.
<CrackZ> so I understand to a point.
*** Joins: redfire__ (fire@rdg-dial-196-2-34-145.mweb.co.za)
<nN> hi redfire
<redfire__> hi
*** Quits: atzbani (2)
<[LaZaRuS]> it's more money I ever had at the same time in my whole life
<CrackZ> I hope you guys when you are earning mega $
<CrackZ> do buy it
<BlackB> i will
<[LaZaRuS]> yeah, I will too (when I have money)
*** mEX-DR34D is now known as mEX-dr34d
<redfire__> I wanted to know some more about the .com files im playing with, whats in all the registers when one starts? (i need lotsa details, like what ax, has, why.. .what bx...)?
<nN> hell i mean. sometimes we're so hypocritical...i'm not talking about you zen, but how many times i read stuff like "buy it cuz it's really worth it"...
<BlackB> but hey....software companies don't loose much money by us crackerz
<nN> i admit i had this same hypocritical attitude in the early days
<CrackZ> nN - so true.
<CrackZ> most tutes say "buy SoftICE"
*** Joins: f0dder (f0dder@195.192.70.204)
*** Joins: ^PlAyEr (player2@p3E9E77C3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
<CrackZ> as do most sites
<CrackZ> and we all know the author hasn't.
<[LaZaRuS]> heh
<CrackZ> and I'm guilty of it with some of my programs also
<BlackB> i never write in my tuts to buy software
<CrackZ> I should really buy WinRAR
<[LaZaRuS]> yeah, me too
<nN> but at least i had the sense of not putting that sucky idealistic moralistic shite from my conseal tute
<CrackZ> & some others
<[LaZaRuS]> I can't say "buy" if I didn't 
<BlackB> isn't is rediculous to buy a program becoz it has a good protection......and to not buy it if it has bad protection?
<nN> which is incidentally the first cracking tute i've written in a long time
<CrackZ> BlackB - everyone here is using WinRAR & WinZip
<redfire__> uhm.. and, how can I set a breakpoint on an int, but a specific call, like int 21 with AH=51...?
*** Joins: Karnak (karnak@srac309-050.ports.primus.com.au)
<Karnak> hi guys
<CrackZ> I'll bet on that.
<[LaZaRuS]> em, I don't use WinRar ;)
<redfire__> and sice...
<CrackZ> bpint 21 if ah==51
<nN> bpint 21 if ah==51
<redfire__> thanks :)
<redfire__> bye
<nN> np
<nN> bye
*** Parts: redfire__ (fire@rdg-dial-196-2-34-145.mweb.co.za)
<Ice[AWAY]> rhcp on mtv
<CrackZ> oh well time for me to get off my soap box
<BlackB> ur all weirdos u know :)
<nN> anyhow sometimes i feel something is wrong with crews as well.
<[LaZaRuS]> yep :P
<nN> like..
<BlackB> tell me nn :)
<nN> what the heck, i crack shit for me and NOT for every damn lamer around
<CrackZ> I gave up on warez releasing.
<[LaZaRuS]> yeah, exactly my opinion
<nN> i mean
<CrackZ> I spent 2hrs reversing a damn good HASP.
<CrackZ> and some asshole pre'd it to loadsa sites
* mEX-dr34d applaudes for ZEN's great speech
<CrackZ> not a word
<nN> how did randy linden had to feel when xoanon cracked his bleem ?
<BlackB> well, i'm in a group to get in contact with various good crackers......and get some help if i'm stuck with a prog 
<nN> i've read an email he sent him afterwards
<BlackB> i just like to be in the cracking scene
<[LaZaRuS]> I am here to get in contact
<mEX-dr34d> with who, laz?
<BlackB> yea i know....but being in the same group is something else
<[LaZaRuS]> with all nice guys here :)
<BlackB> it's different of being in this chan
<nN> and he simply explained, "thanks man, you ruined me...we're not enough powerful to put bleem in the stores, we can only do web-selling. now everyone will use ur crack...thanks again"
<nN> xoanon told me he felt like shit
<CrackZ> yep.
<BlackB> wow
<nN> and would have NEVER cracked a bleem release again
<Cali> what nice guys?
<CrackZ> but we all were in #UCF2000
<Cali> =)
<CrackZ> and there were 1000's of lamers
<nN> now i mean
<nN> a programmer that writes software
<CrackZ> nearly 450 people in there
<nN> most prolly won't have a second job
<BlackB> nN: well......in that case i would have felt guilty too
<CrackZ> Bleem is a brilliant piece of coding.
<nN> and hence he HAS to live with that
<CrackZ> I declined to crack it.
<mEX-dr34d> *good* software deserves to be bought
<CrackZ> Randy was around a long time back.
<nN> if the last lamer cracks his program and SPREADS
<nN> how the hell is a programmer supposed to live ?
<CrackZ> and whats it retail.
<nN> SO i mean....if u wanna crack
<CrackZ> $15 or $20
<nN> do it for yourself
*** Joins: Anstoss (player2@p3E9C31BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
* Karnak agrees with nN
<nN> but dont give a crack to any motherfucker that will just use it and then delete it
* [LaZaRuS] too
<BlackB> nN: okay, you have a point there but......
<CrackZ> time to go.
<CrackZ> l8ters nN.
<mEX-dr34d> no 'but..' there BB
<nN> giving a HUGE fuck about the cracker and the job it took him to crack the program
<mEX-dr34d> laters Zen
<nN> laters, zen
*** Anstoss is now known as PlAyEr^
<CrackZ> now crack that webwarez I gave you :-)
<BlackB> what's wrong with cracking a prog of microsoft.....or any other big software companie?
<BlackB> company
*** Quits: CrackZ (Gone.)
<[LaZaRuS]> no difference
<mEX-dr34d> the cracking isnt wrong, the spreading of it is
<BlackB> no difference???
<Karnak> nothing... if you're doing it for your own reasons... 
<[LaZaRuS]> yep
<nN> exactly
<nN> that's why i say
<mEX-dr34d> cracking can be fun
<nN> let us not be hypocrite
<nN> let's crack and spread KNOWLEDGE
<nN> not cracks
*** Quits: ^PlAyEr (Ping timeout)
<Karnak> if you are doing it for credit.. or anything like that.. i reckon its wrong.. 
<mEX-dr34d> spreading might be, dont know that, but THEN and only then you're ruining your targets creator
<Karnak> yup... i'm up for knowledge any day!
* [LaZaRuS] praises Neural the Wise ;)
<nN> if the last lamer on earth stubles across a crack and across a tutorial...what do you think he will choose ?
<Karnak> i do this stuff so i can learn more about the system and how it works
<Karnak> and i've learned heaps too
<nN> hehe lazzaro
<Karnak> sure i get a buzz when i crack something.. but thats coz i knwo i've leraned somethign new
<nN> exactly, karnak....that's the spirit
<BlackB> nN: u've got kinda noble toughts....but isn't it like fighting ur shadow? i mean, if u don't spread the crack, someone else will
<Karnak> :)
<f0dder> BlackB: now that's rather lame.
<Karnak> when i crack something.. i try and write a tutorial for it too.. so others can learn..
<mEX-dr34d> BB: that's about the stupidest argument you can come up with
<[LaZaRuS]> and I crack, because I can't reverse engineer targets (I see it as starting point for *real* RE)
<Karnak> i dont write them so others can rip other people off
<nN> BB, it's like saying "if i don't throw my cigarette packet on the ground, someone else will, so why not"
<mEX-dr34d> if I dont shoot my neighbour, there's a chance that someone else will do it..
<Karnak> yeah.. me too laz
<nN> and i do NOT agree with that
<mEX-dr34d> if I dont shitlist you now, nN might do
<BlackB> dread: that 's something else
<f0dder> ;)
<mEX-dr34d> no it isnt
<BlackB> hey, i 'm just giving arguments, so r u guys......so don't come up with those lame shitlist and other stuff
<mEX-dr34d> it's the core-fact that 'if I dont, then someone else will'-argument
*** Joins: Tragen (aab@209-130-151-208.nas-3.MON.frontiernet.net)
<mEX-dr34d> I dont BB
<mEX-dr34d> just some examples
<mEX-dr34d> and I wont shitlist you
<mEX-dr34d> but maybe nN will ;?)
<nN> lazza, if u allow me an opinion from the little experience i've got, you're on the right path...r.e. without a cracking basis is impossible
*** Joins: shadow1 (shadow@actcom.co.il)
*** Joins: Anstoss (player2@p3E9E77E8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
<shadow1> !seen blorght
<Karnak> blackb: if i dont shoot you in the head.. someone else will.. so i may aswell do it :)
<mEX-dUDE> I found 8 matches to your query.  Here are the 5 most recent (sorted): bl0b bl0rght blorght blorght_ blo.  bl0b (tp963323@allman.canberra.edu.au) was last seen quitting from #cracking4newbies 5 hours, 20 minutes ago stating (Hey!  Where'd my controlling terminal go?).
<nN> and another thing, get into PE format, coding and memory managment
*** Parts: shadow1 (shadow@actcom.co.il)
<[LaZaRuS]> heh, thanx :)
<nN> that'll help alot
<[LaZaRuS]> yeah, I'll do it
<nN> noprob
*** Quits: PlAyEr^ (Ping timeout)
<BlackB> i've got a good argument.....need some time to typ it in
<mEX-dr34d> laz, but I advise you to first get a grip on SI, IDA and some win32asm coding
<mEX-dr34d> ok, we'll wait BB


******Some unimportant stuff inhere*********


<mEX-dr34d> BB: it's going to be huge that argument, isnt it?
<Magic_Aw> lo all
<nN> ahah kl
*** Parts: Karnak (karnak@srac309-050.ports.primus.com.au)
<nN> kd rather :)
<[LaZaRuS]> so big arguments cannot be so good ;)
*** Magic_Aw is now known as MagicRaph
<mEX-dr34d> well, before we judge, let's wait some more
<BlackB> okay, now listen all to this......ppl that use cracks are mostly private persons.....like us.....few private persons buy their software on their computer. If they somehow HAD to buy software (if cracking wouldn exist), we just wouldn't buy the software......so the software company doens't loose any money. The MAIN INCOME of software companies are from business companies.....and those HAVE to registere their product
<mEX-dr34d> hope the argument wont be 'Ping Timeout'
<nN> wow
<BlackB> so my point is.....
<nN> huge argument
<nN> let's read.
<BlackB> they don't loose money due to us
<f0dder> BB: there's some right stuff in all that.
<mEX-dr34d> ok, good point, but still.. let me type some against-arg
<BlackB> okay :)
<nN> yet bb
<nN> the problem is with the hypocritical mentality
<mEX-dr34d> there is no real problem in my eyes when using cracks for programs you wouldnt have bought in no possibility.. however, you SHOULD buy software you use, simply because it's good work from the coder
<nN> and the fact that actually, if i need a program
<nN> i would buy it, damnit....if i couldnt afford it, i would LEARN to crack
<nN> and that would be much better
<mEX-dr34d> so, to get back to the first part, you shouldnt use cracks on programs that deserve to be bought, and you shouldt use programs that dont deserve that
<f0dder> What about poor sods like me then? I use, say, visual C++ 6. No chance I'd ever have enough money to buy it.
<nN> instead of just opening opera and loading astalavista...
<nN> don't u think '
<nN> ?
<BlackB> nN: that's a very idealistic opinion.....not everyone is able to learn to crack
*** Quits: Cali (syntax: i'm rooled)
<BlackB> it implies that u know quite a lot computer stuff
<nN> true, not everyone...and do you think that they will get any better if they dl a crack ?
<BlackB> not everyone can do that
<mEX-dr34d> at least I do, nN, I would love to buy SI, IDA, Photoshop and a lot more.. but I ph34r that will take some time till I got the dough
* mEX-b0NE ph34rs
*** Parts: chicken_ (dunno@193.58.197.138)
<mEX-dr34d> he chickened out
<[LaZaRuS]> I guess I missed the best (Phone) :(
*** Joins: Cali (who@pppc2-41.eisa.net.au)
*** mEX-dUDE sets mode: +v Cali
*** mEX-b0NE sets mode: +v Cali
*** mEX-c4N sets mode: +v Cali
<mEX-dr34d> scroll up then laz
<nN> do you REALLY think that the lamer next door is BETTER because he is able to dl a crack ? or that he GIVES A FUCK about the cracker loosing his sleep on that crack?
<mEX-dr34d> wbcali
<nN> man, i don't really think so.
<BlackB> yea, ur right on that one
<mEX-dr34d> hmm. I'd wish that this unACE would be faster.. then I might buy it even
<nN> most persons i know of just dl the crack, read the nfo for instructions, don't give a damn about who's the cracker, crew, or whatever else, run the crack, and DELETE IT
<nN> yes, DELETE IT.
<Cali> danke
<nN> they're not worth your nights, man
<nN> at least that's my humble opinion.
<f0dder> why SHOULD they, really?
<mEX-dr34d> I know nN, and I can sincerely say that I got really 'Wow, thanks man' awnsers when mailing the cracker to say good work.
<BlackB> nN: yea i know, but as i said, i'm cracking for a group....NOT for the ppl who want the crackz.....but for the group-spirit.....knowing new ppl.....getting personal help etc.....
<nN> exactly....
<[LaZaRuS]> heh, the guys I played Halflife with don't delete their cracks (and btw BlackB: mostly EVC)
<f0dder> They don't DL a crack to pay respect to a cracker, but to avoid spending their money,
<mEX-dr34d> WHEN I didnt have the time to crack it myself, or couldnt do it, yet
<Cali> heh - I had another group use one of my cracks when the next release came out..  and they didn't even bother talking to me
* Cali sobs
<hutch--> haha
<f0dder> I don't delete my cracks. I put them on backup cd's.
<hutch--> crack piracy
<mEX-dr34d> btw, *sidenote* the chan is about cracking once again, lets cheer!
<hutch--> Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee
<mEX-dr34d> indeed hutch, we're loosing a lot here
*** Quits: Anstoss (Operation timed out)
<[LaZaRuS]> I don't use cracks (either crack it myself, or don't use it)
<nN> bb, that's a fantastic ideal...and it's a good way to start and LEARN lots...but think about the end user too...if u read interviews with crew prezs u'll easily notice HOW the crew cares about the lame end-user
<Cali> its terrible hutch.. used to happen all the time
<mEX-dr34d> cheer!
* nN cheers :)
*** Joins: Dawai (dawai@u195-95-31-222.pop-kortrijk2.planetinternet.be)
<Dawai> [Dawai] ph34r this l33t info line
<Dawai> omfg
<nN> hi daw
*** Quits: llama_ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
<mEX-dr34d> dahigh!
<Dawai> hi
<BlackB> nN: yea, most end-users are lamerz......but, for now, that isn't any of my concern
<Dawai> 40 new mails in 12 hours time
<mEX-dr34d> ah, select m all, and delete m, the important messages will be sent again dawai
<Dawai> heh
<mEX-dr34d> *Grin*
*** Quits: MagicRaph (Ping timeout: 360 seconds)
<nN> bb, true but let's not bring this discussion to death: my point is really easy: you work , they leech, you care, they don't give a damb about BlackB cracking xyz app, they just read CRACK.COM and run it. everything else does NOT concern them
*** Joins: MagicRaph (~haha@d-105-237.bdx.ftci.oleane.com)
<nN> and this is the end...i've got your point and it's ok this way =)
<[LaZaRuS]> yeah, but everyone that releases knows that
<Dawai> wtf
<BlackB> i also got your point nn :)
<mEX-dr34d> nN, but should they? I think it's better to have concern for the coder of the app, then for the poor cracker
<[LaZaRuS]> so, I can't see this prob
<nN> cool ;)
<Dawai> looks like Occultations has gone crazy
<mEX-dr34d> as the cracker cracks because he likes to, not to get money
<f0dder> exactly
<BlackB> indeed
<BlackB> i crack becoz i like it
* Dawai mounts sortof
<[LaZaRuS]> or Neural: do you really need respect of some lamers?
<Ice[AWAY]> hehe
<[LaZaRuS]> you don't care about them - they don't care about you
<mEX-dr34d> fucking christ, this unace is taking OVER 20mins now..
<nN> well then, i mean....if u are in a crew and stand the pressure that a crew puts on you...why dont u leave and crack for yourself ?
<nN> i mean....when i was in crews, all i felt was pressure
<nN> no rewards, nothing else...
<BlackB> i don't feel pressure
<f0dder> that's the price you pay for nice compression ratios.
<[LaZaRuS]> that's the reason I don't join a crew
<nN> just a few stupid warez sites that u can find anywhere else
<nN> NOW....i thought, damn
<mEX-dr34d> that's totally true, I quitted crews very soon after I joined
<nN> what the fuck am i doing here ?!?
<Dawai> i got 2 old 386's for free
<nN> and i left....and i begun analizing and studying on my own
<Dawai> maybe i'll use them to code my own OS on :)
*** Joins: netzone (~steve@fw.kalnet.com.au)
<mEX-dr34d> same here nN
<nN> and now it was ME to choose what to reverse and what not
<nN> it was ME to choose what to crack and what to buy
<mEX-dr34d> or, no not really, I founded DREAD
<[LaZaRuS]> heh, I made the thoughts before I joined anything
<f0dder> heh.
<nN> that's all.
<netzone> Can some out there do two cracks for me VB4 16 Bit programs??
*** Dawai is now known as mEX-daWAi
<mEX-daWAi> :)
<mEX-dr34d> and recruited some people with the same interest..
<BlackB> nN: my personal tutor helped me a lot when i was at the very beginning of cracking.....and he asked me to join EVC......and i did partially becoz he helped me so much
*** mEX-daWAi is now known as Dawai
<Dawai> cya all
*** Quits: Dawai (Leaving)
<nN> netzone, look in #cracks for cracks, not here
<mEX-dr34d> well, this unace has been too long.. I'm out of here
<mEX-dr34d> laters
<nN> laters mate
<BlackB> cu :)
*** Parts: Pl-Sauer (player2@p3E9E77E2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
<mEX-n00s> later
<BlackB> nN: well.......i hope u got what u wanted -> a serious conversation ;)
<netzone> been there done that but no luck:)
*** Joins: DeeLuXe- (_xx@p3E9D37AE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
<nN> bb: excellent one :)
<nN> i'm very happy :P
<BlackB> hehehe
<[LaZaRuS]> yeah
<nN> netzone: well i'm sorry man but you should read bot notifies, this is NOT a crack-distributing channel
<BlackB> i'm going to upload this log to my page
<BlackB> under the "ethics" devision :)
<[LaZaRuS]> heh
<nN> so u better stick to www or whatever else
<[LaZaRuS]> leave EVC immediately ;=
<[LaZaRuS]> ;) even
<BlackB> laza: i won't
<nN> ehheeh bb
<[LaZaRuS]> become one of the good site :P
<BlackB> this isn't star wars :p
* crazzie_ BrB
<[LaZaRuS]> heh
*** Quits: crazzie_ (www.welcome.to/phase)
<nN> okay i'm off leeties
<netzone> ok see ya thanks for your help
<nN> take good care :)
*** Quits: [BeeP] (Ping timeout: 181 seconds)
<[LaZaRuS]> me too
*** Parts: netzone (~steve@fw.kalnet.com.au)
<[LaZaRuS]> cya all laterz
*** Quits: [LaZaRuS] (Can anyone get me a date with Bill Gates daughter?)
<BlackB> cu NN
* nN waves to all the l33ties
<nN> laters bb
<BlackB> i'm off too
<BlackB> :)
*** Quits: nN (she is the tear that hangs inside my soul forever....)
Session Close: Tue Aug 24 14:15:37 1999

So, that's it....i hope it may have been useful to you in some way...nevertheless at least....
THINK ABOUT IT yourself!

Greetz

  BlackB