S4 - THE ROBERT LAZAR STORY
TAPE 3 -- SIDE A
Q: Question
L: Lazar
Q: After you discovered...
L: Right... the fuel... it was really the beginning of the project because now we can really ascertain how the reactor probably worked and we can up with a theory and we had to prove that now... so there was a lot more work to be done... but that was kind of a stumbling block until we knew exactly where to proceed from...
Q: Was this Barry beside you the whole time or were you coming into the room to Barry?
L: Barry was always there.
Q: So there was just a real sense of being in tandem. What was the nature of pressure... in terms of guys with guns... in sense of military pressure... was that intense at this time, or not?
L: Not at this time, no. Later on it started increasing.
Q: Really. During your work there... it started getting more and more pressure...
L: Yeah... it was after the Russians left.
Q: Now wasn't there some element missing at one time, too?
L: Well, yeah...
Q: Was there a chance the Russians were somehow tied to that?
L: No... I was tied to that.
Q: Did you?
L: Yeah.
Q: Where did you find it?
L: Well, I found out where they were having... that's what the Los Alamos connection was... they were actually working at Los Alamos and, at that time, I could get anywhere I wanted to at Los Alamos. And if I couldn't get there, I knew people who were there.
Q: Why did you take some?
L: Well, this is also after... it was after the Russians left, after the...
Q: Things were really tense when you took some.
L: Yeah, because they kind of thought there was going to be repercussions from the Russians... that, you know, we want back in or we want the information and there was just kind of a tension there and this is when... now I've already seen all the goods... and now it's already beginning to wear off... so, now I'm not as content as I was.
Q: So you took it as a form of insurance against them?
L: Yeah.
Q: I have to say something... this is the first time you've said that openly.
(EVERYONE SPEAKS AT ONCE)
Q: No, no, I'm not cycling the subject at all...
L: It's in Jim Croissant's (?) script... but you never read it...
Q: No, I never read it... no, all I'm saying is... I think it's cool... I think it's really neat, but I just want to make the point...
L: Would you get me some water, please.
Q: Forget I said it, but, my only reason for that is that is that something that you want to be known for... something you don't...
Q: Jon, you can't editorialize, I'm dead serious... we want to hear the story... we'll develop the script and we'll all be a part of that... but I certainly don't want to start putting a do you want this, do you want that on this kind of conversation when he's so comfortable.
Q: Alright, I understand. Fine.
Q: The point is... that kind of shit needs to be outside of this room.
Q: I understand.
Q: We just got into something interesting... which is key... although it's getting ahead of the chronology... and that is two things... the level of military paranoia is increasing while he was there... particularly after the Russians were asked to pull out... which we suppose... correct me if I'm wrong... has something to do with this discovery you never learned about.
L: Right... right... some other major discovery was made and they were kicked out... information not shared with them... and right after that the military involvement there... or the pressure... the amount of guards substantially increased.
Q: What is really interesting is that Los Alamos Labs is working in conjuction with S4... what they're doing is analyzing...
L: No... they weren't analyzing... they
had no idea what they were dealing with.
Q: Why did they have some then?
L: Because... this is liquid gas (?) essentially... this substance was stored in discs like silver dollar size and it was used in the reactors... the way it's manufactured, these discs are stacked up...
Q: Kind of like Vegas... put a silver dollar in and the wheel spins...
L: These discs are stacked up... they're taken sideways, compressed and then lathed into a cone... this cone is then sliced... like that... and only in that configuration can these discs work... when one of those slices... which if you look at one of those slices...
Q: Was it easy to slice or hard material?
L: I have no idea... it's very heavy and it will only work in that configuration in the reactor... for all that machining that was sent to Los Alamos... and it was sent under the guise of a new armor... and they were making test targets for the armor... and I thought, that was great 'cause it was going in as a classified material but they had no idea what they were dealing with. I knew the place in Los Alamos where it was going... I knew the building... I knew people that worked there... I've been in there... and it just really connected a lot of stuff together for me... that everyone really doesn't know what they're doing. Los Alamos had no idea.
Q: We're ahead of our story, but when the shit really hit the fan for Bob personally he decides to take out some insurance... he can get into Los Alamos all he wants to... and take some of the stuff and keeps it... and basically this is...
L: Well, I personally didn't take it.
Q: Okay.
Q: Can I ask some quick questions?
Q: Ask all you want.
Q: Your knowledge of the breakthrough that caused the heightened security came from Barry?
L: Yes.
Q: Barry told you...
L: Barry and Dennis.
Q: They said we've potentially found out something here that's going to change life for all of us around here... or was he more specific than that?
L: No, he wasn't specific at all. Barry's the one that specifically told me that we're not sharing it with the Russians. Dennis is the one that told me well we've had some big break through and things may change a little around here and Barry kind of filled in the gaps... well, we decided not to share it with our buddies... and there might be some flak... so that's the way it was put.
Q: Did you ever meet any Russians when you were there? Or was everyone so isolated?
L: The Russians were there...
Q: Why the hell would America have the Russians in on something...
L: The only reason I can see is if they had hardware that we needed to interact with...
Q: They probably had some piece to the puzzle.
L: But I remember dealing with Russians at Los Alamos and, if there's any way possible to screw 'em, I'm all for it. Abso-fucking-lutely... ever single time we did anything... we developed... in the interest of science and cooperation... we were working on this super-conducting magnetic... and we had a big undertaking to have this thing made... it was millions of dollars and we could have really used it for our research, but we decided, well, we'll give it to the Russians for six months to let them use it and then, you know, take it back... stuff like this happened countless times... we'd let them borrow it for six months and they'd say... we lost it... it's gone. It was in a train crash... it's evaporated... and we'd never see it again... and this would happen countless times... so actually when I heard the information it was like, good, yeah, good... I'm glad... if we could have only shot them on the way out... I have absolutely no... because they just ripped us off continuously.
Q: You didn't actually have any interaction with any Russian physicists while you were there?
L: No. Coincidentally, someone I used to work with at Los Alamos was working at the test site and this had made the papers... that the Russians were coming in to do some joint nuclear test site inspection... and Joe, who was down at Los Alamos, saw them come in the cafeteria and left. They went to another area and he never saw them again. And I said, well, I found out where they were... very interesting... a complete cover story... even made headlines and stuff and they showed up at the nuclear test site, ate with everybody and then took off and the only time they saw them leave again, was some time later when...
Q: I've got to ask you something... this comes right out of high school. I mean I meant to ask you this eventually... your story is so much about isolation and compartmentalization... what happens at lunch time... is everybody in the same room? Or are you there with one guy and a guard?
L: I don't know because I always came there at 4:30 and I usually left at eleven.
Q: So you didn't get to eat a meal there?
L: No...
Q: Huh.
L: So I have no idea... maybe there's a bell that goes off and everybody goes some where, but the only lunchroom I was ever in was at Area 51 so it's just one of those things I don't know.
Q: Fascinating.
Q: Okay, so, if things started to get tenser after the Russians left... what was the progression? What started to happen that made life miserable?
L: More guards and the guards being more obtrusive, I guess.
Q: How would that happen? What's more obtrusive? What were they doing?
L: Now instead of being outside the door, they were in the room.
Q: This is the room were you read the briefings?
L: Well, and in the lab...
Q: What the hell would they be doing while you're working in the lab talking to Barry, standing there?
L: Just standing there.
Q: One, two... how many?
L: Usually just one... even going into the bathroom, they would come into the bathroom, not just wait by the door. They'd sit and watch you... take a leak in the urinal... they would be right there and it would be just too... I got the feeling that it was specifically to intimidate us...
Q: Something big was discovered.
L: Something happened and they wanted you to know... this is kind of lock down... and they specifically hated me 'cause I felt like because I had never seen anyone else, other than the first time, coming and going all the time... that I was kind of the loose cog... because I was free to come and go as I pleased on flights in and out... and no one else was doing that and I really don't think that they liked that... they would rather me spend the night there...
Q: There was just one guy on the bus or was that changed, too?
L: No... that stayed that way.
Q: Were they rude to you at any time?
L: Oh, yeah, always.
Q: What would they say?
L: Nothing, nothing specific... like it was just general rudeness... I don't know how to describe it.
Q: Did you ever wiseoff to them? Or were you scared of them enough not...
L: No... I never wised off to them.
Q: And would they ever... they would tell you were to go and what to do? Things like that?
L: Yeah, just... stupid things... it's a long hallway to the bathroom and you'd be walking down there at a normal pace and he'd just give me a butt from behind, come on, we don't have all day... stuff like that... it was like... get off my back.
Q: He would touch you? With his gun.
L: Yeah. Yeah.
Q: Did he have a rifle or a sidearm?
L: I don't know, he was behind me. They all had rifles... I'm sure they had sidearms, too, but...
Q: Was he pushing you with a rifle butt?
L: I don't know... I just felt a...
Q: Yeah, we don't have all day.
L: But I couldn't believe it, when that happened.
Q: That obviously shows some disrespect...
L: There was great disrespect between them and us. So it was...
Q: Now, this is interesting. What can the source of this be? Was there a sense of... there's a club sense in the military in general and there's a club sense in the scientific community...
L: But why would they have anything against us? We're on the same side, unless whatever happened...
Q: Someome probably fucked up on the scientific side that somebody didn't like... maybe somebody fucked him over.
L: Right, and again that brings to mind the report with the aliens and the military...
Q: Which report?
L: There again... there's the pseudo science going on and military intervening so... we're seeing a low level repeating of that if that in fact is real... so it was just too confusing... it was disturbing... I didn't know...
Q: So it could be a sense... it could have been a sense within the military side of this... that the scientific side... there were frustrated with the scientific side -- an elitist manner...
Q: Or that the scientific side had allowed something to get out... if people knew there was a break through and... this is just pure speculation, but evidently the military side was upset at the scientific side because...
Q: How else did the atmosphere change... okay the guards... we know... more guards... what about personnel... were there other ways of telling something could be going down?
Q: What was Barry's attitude... was he just as chipper as always?
L: Yeah... Barry really never changed.
Q: Barry seems like such an odd duck to me. Here's a guy, totally out there...
L: Well, he's not totally out there... he's just a guy at work. He's not anything.
Q: But the guy has no wife that I can tell of... that's just amazing.
L: But I didn't see him enough... I was seeing him sporadically... every other week here and there...
Q: Was he happy for your company? Did you have a sense of that?
L: Oh yeah!
Q: Do you have a sense of his working in isolation other than with you?
L: Yeah... he was happy to see me.
Q: So he may have been a guy, to some extent, in a very solitary position except for when you came.
L: Right.
Q: That's a good dynamic.
L: That's when we started fooling around... like I said... we had the reactor running and checking the field out on it and bouncing stuff off of the top of it... doing stupid stuff.
Q: When was the first time that you saw that that could happen? Was that in its own way a discovery?
L: No... that was just something Barry had on...
Q: Barry had the field on many times before that?
L: Yeah.
Q: And what exactly did you see? What did you bounce against it?
L: A golf ball.
Q: So you have an invisible magnetic field...
Q&L: Gravitational field...
Q: Gravitational field...
L: Well, the first thing was... you started the reactor, put the reactor under and the ray (?) was just sitting on the table and then he'd turn the reactor on and he's say, touch it. And you'd feel... it's almost like if you had two magnets in your hand, but with no metal at all... as you put your hand closer to it, you could never actually touch the metal reactor... which is pushed solidly (?)... and on the base of it, he'd say okay now try and move it...
Q: Was there any sound?
L: No, no... total silence... and to move it... you could not move it at all... it was just locked in time and space essentially... it was just completely immovable... then you could feel that the field was almost elastic on the top and that's when we were bouncing things off it... and he wailed a golf ball at the top and it rebounded off and there's this suspended ceiling and it blasted one of the tiles and some of the stuff came down and the guard wasn't in the room, so we had an emergency clean up before the guard saw us doing anything... that was the only time we were concerned about...
Q: Did the dust fall in the field?
L: No... it just fell around...
Q: If it had, would it just have stopped in mid-air...
L: I don't know... that's interesting.
Q: Well, if you poured liquid over it...
L: It would just run down the sides...
Q: Did you ever do that?
L: No, we did all kinds of silly things though, but...
Q: That would be another small thing to take license with that we ought to do... as Barry demonstrates it, we move into Bob... that's great stuff... that kind of effect done well, so you absolutely believe what you see, is better than an entire spaceship attack on some wacky...
Q: ... the black holes that were created in the lab and the black discs...
L: Well, just one disc... the bending of light... that's when they had one of the amplifiers off the craft connected to the reactor and focused it down and you could see through it and then there's just a black dot where you can see all the light was being bent away from the focal point... that was amazing...
Q: That was like hallucinatory, I would think...
L: Yeah, right, that's exactly what it does... because the absolute first thing you did was try to look at it out of the corner of your eye, expecting it to move...
Q: Can you put your hand through that?
L: No, you couldn't stick your hand by the...
Q: What would happen?
L: I don't know... but he just said, don't do that.
Q: Alright... so, I asked... Barry didn't seem to change much, but was the atmosphere on the...
L: No... another guy I met was Rene and he... I didn't spend a lot of time with him, but he was more or less working with another guy somewhere else, but he's the only other guy that I met...
Q: And how was he... was he affected at all by the increased security?
L: No, not really.
Q: Everybody was still happy in their work...
L: Yeah, more or less.
Q: So the guards were tougher... something had gone down... we don't know what... where does this lead us in your personal story... you were continuing to work...
Q: How many days a week now?
L: Ahh... still only one or two... I mean, not a lot... not even two days a week...
Q: It's hard for me to imagine you doing work this important...
L: Yeah, but what was happening, coincidentally, not coincidentally, but simultaneously, I should say, now... this is probably what prevented me from going on full time right away... at that time, my wife was having an affair without me knowing... and she's doing all the communication over the phone... so they pulled the brakes, and I only found this out after, they pulled the brakes on essentially letting me in, because now they're kind of at an impasse of what to do... because now they have a candidate for mental instability for social problems at home... marital problems at home... and they're more or less waiting for this to come to a head... sitting there listening in to a soap opera every day on the phone and waiting for it either to dissolve or come to a head or something... and I think that was the lag time that we're looking at.
Q: So you yourself may have been wondering why you weren't making it...
L: Right, right... and essentially at one point they just didn't call me back and then I began to wonder what's going on and it's in your imagination... that's what kills you because now time goes on and, you know, now what the guards have told me is beginning to echo in my head... why am I home and there's no one watching me now.
Q: What's echoing in your head?
L: Well... something about we do what is absolutely ever necessary to keep this secret, so on and so forth...
Q: Was there a threat in that?
L: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
Q: So, they were suggesting they'd kill you.
L: Oh, yeah. No, ifs, ands, or buts...
Q: Did they say... we'll kill you? Did they say it outright?
L: No... not at that point.
Q: This was after things got worse...
L: No this was before. This was way before.
Q: That was early... part of the welcome to the place...
L: Right.
Q: But you were remembering it more now?
L: Ahh...
Q: Was it repeated?
L: No, it wasn't repeated.
Q: What did you do while you were waiting for the callback?
L: Nothing... just tried to continue on with life as normal...
Q: Without meaningful work... that must have been difficult.
L: Yeah, that was really difficult... and it began to get really tough, and that's when I started telling someone... that's when I started speaking to Gene about it.
Q: Is that who I met?
L: Yeah. It was actually a relief to tell him... and...
Q: What brought you to tell him finally?
L: I don't know... I just began to worry... I don't know if it was unfounded... I don't know about what...
Q: Did he notice the change in you?
L: Oh, yeah. You can ask him about that. He... ah... it was a great relief to unload on him and everything and that's when we went out and saw the test flights and so on and so forth...
Q: Is that the night you unloaded?
L: No... it was some time before... it was kind of a slow unloaded... you kind of tell him a couple of things and then... the only place I would talk to him... I wouldn't talk to him in my home... it was either in his car or walking outside somewhere... I didn't trust anything... 'cause I knew the level of technology that was going on... I knew what the guys were capable of... so it would just be in person...
Q: Could they be watching at this time?
L: Oh, yeah... there was no doubt about it.
Q: That's bad news for us.
L: There's no doubt about that.
Q: How can you tell?
L: Well, as I'll get into... they've turned up at places where they'd be people outside... all kinds of things.
Q: What's happening with your wife? Now you still don't know this is going down... that she's continuing this affair and you're home...
L: Right... now I'm home and she's disappearing at night. Taking flying lessons... but I knew you had to have so many hours of night flying to get your flying license... so it made sense...
Q: It was a good cover...
L: Yeah.
Q: So why didn't they just leave it like that? Why did they have to tell you anything? You would have discovered it eventually on your own. Did they finally tell you this... or what happened then...
L: Well, yeah... there's a lot of events that lead up to that. But... I eventually... well, after I told Gene it was kind of a... again a chain reaction took place... then I told her... and then I told... Gene had recently met John Lear... this is how I got to know John Lear... and found out that he had... we wanted his telescope... he had a big Celestron 8" telescope... so we told him a little bit about it... not as much as I had told Gene... just enough to get him to bring his telescope so we could see what was going on... that's when we were actually able to see... an 8" telescope from 13 miles yields a pretty good picture of the disc...
Q: Did you film through it?
L: No, we couldn't... it was just to see. I looked pretty good.
Q: Was that one night or a number of nights?
L: Well, it was a number of nights since we got away with it on the first night, we were just compelled to keep going back and...
Q: Always Wednesday?
L: Always Wednesday night. At that time. Then... what happened after that? After that...
Q: Can I go back for just a second?
L: Sure.
Q: When you were waiting for the call to go back, and the call wasn't coming because he had been monitoring your phone calls between your ex-wife and her lover and you'd go out and talk with Gene... did you know that they were surveilling you?
L: Yeah.
Q: How did you know?
L: In fact... the first time I had seen that was, I believe, when I went to John Lear's house and when I pulled up in the driveway... a car pulled up across the street and I just stayed there... and when I left, they left and several hours later... at night... I was asleep and I woke up and looked outside the window... the kitchen window... and the car was parked directly across the street... now that's an overt showing to me... they could have hide around the corner somewhere, but they...
Q: They probably were hearing you telling people.
L: Well, how could they?
Q: Well, maybe not, but they had some sense... they wanted to threaten you.
Q: If you went to John Lear's house... they certainly knew you were there to talk about... because they knew he was involved with UFO's...
L: Right... and then going around with Gene... it was just once in awhile you would just be followed and then the most overt showing occurred a little later on and, at the time, I was going to work out with my friend's girlfriend, Shelly... and I just go to this Family Fitness Centers... and we'd leave... well, at first, it was either this friend Shelly or Mario I'd go with. And Mario and I left one night to go there at night in my 280Z and I started bringing my gun with me, 'cause I started getting scared... So, which, at that time I had an Uzi, so I left it on the console...
Q: Is it legal to have an Uzi here or is that illegal...
L: Yeah... so I just carried that with me and it just began... we went and we parked the car. Now, I'm wearing shorts, so I can't...
Q: Carry your Uzi...
L: Yeah, can't carry my Uzi and I left my wallet and I just covered it with a towel or whatever was in the back... over the center console... left it in the car... and locked the doors and Mario and I went out... we came back, and he goes around the other side and opens the door... but the door wasn't even closed... both doors, the driver and passenger side, were both ajar... and I said, God... but nothing was taken... and I thought, oh, gee what a stupid mistake... it's impossible, but I remember locking the door, so, it was two nights later we'd go back to work again, and this time, same deal, had the gun, wallet, same place, covered up... and we go and we actually make a joke about it... we lock the doors and we close them... and we're trying to open the doors... we're shaking the car back and forth... acting stupid like, you think it's closed now... well, it seems to be... so we go inside... just thinking we were stupid that time... we come out about an hour and a half later and both doors of the car are wide open and nothing's disturbed in the car... and I'm going... this is really strange.
Q: Was Gene with you?
L: No, just this guy Mario... and, at that point, he got really scared.
Q: Sure.
L: He knew I was doing some kind of crazy thing... so I had him start the car...
(LAUGHTER)
L: Mario remembers that well...
Q: How do you get someone else to start your car... what do you tell them?
L: I just said start it... I just want to see if it's running right... he knew it was...
Q: About a bomb and he started it anyway?
L: Yeah.
Q: That's a good friend.
L: Yeah... I looked underneath... I don't know... now my imagination's running away with me... So I get back to the house and Mario, not surprisingly, didn't want to go with me the next time... so I went with Shelly... we left... came back... and she had left her car in the driveway... and her doors were wide open in the car... her seats slide back and everything was gone through when we got back to the house. And it just seemed like nothing was being done other than someone letting us know...
Q: You're not alone...
L: Yeah... you weren't alone... it was just to aggravate... not to aggravate me... but...
Q: Well, this would scare the living shit out of me personally.
L: Yeah, I always thought there was someone somewhere and it was an extremely... now I'm beginning to think, well why are they treating me like this... is it going to escalate further? So...
Q: Did you call Dennis or anybody?
L: No... same thing as before... as I called... no one here by that name... blah, blah, blah...
Q: So there was no one you could turn to at this point.
L: No... there was no one I could turn to and now it kind of starts getting scary for me... though maybe nothing was happening, but it was in my mind... then... I spoke to... it was originally Gene, I think, that said, what you should do is probably tell a news reporter or something... and, for whatever reason, just in case anything happens... or what... so...
Q: So... but... now, I'm sorry... but you hadn't been out yet with Gene to the...
L: Yeah, we had several times...
Q: But you hadn't been caught...
L: No... we hadn't been caught... wait, am I leaving out the...
Q: Because it did escalate significantly after you were caught.
L: Yeah, but I'm trying to get to the last time now... did that happen before...
Q: Well, you can look at your notes... I don't want you to get stuck on chronology just yet... but the point is during this period you're getting more and more paranoid... this has got to be hell... cause you've got to have an instinct that life at home sucks... you don't know why exactly...
L: Yeah, just something wierd... but...
Q: What was your wife's reaction to being told you were working... when you told her you were working on UFOs, did she believe you?
L: Yeah, well, after we all went out to see a test...
Q: You brought her as well...
L: Yeah, I think the second time she came out as well...
END OF TAPE 3 -- SIDE A
TAPE 3 -- SIDE B
Q: Third time...
L: Third time... umm... we wanted to go out... Tracy's sister was in town... again...
Q: Ex-wife...
L: Yeah, Tracy, my ex-wife, her sister Kristen was in town and we were going... me, Tracy, her sister and Gene were going out again. We're getting ready to go and John Lear pulled up in the driveway... just because... we purposely didn't really talk to him because we knew John then was a little crazy... cause we'd heard that he was into the UFO stuff and one of the only reasons I had originally contacted him was thinking I wonder if any of this stuff that he's accumulated is true. And he just let me...
Q: Did you know him before all this?
L: No. And he... actually the reason, let me digress for a minute, the reason I told Gene was, coincidentally, and Gene was just a pseudo-friend... more than an acquaintance... but not a really good friend, but I really didn't know very many people out here... at that time, cause I just kept to myself... he was just a guy on my photo staff who I kind of spent some time with and he had coincidentally, he's a real estate appraiser, had appraised John Lear's house... cause John Lear was getting it re-financed or something... and had at one time, while I was working on the project, started telling me about, yeah, there's this guy and about aliens and stuff like that... and I'm thinking to myself... this is a scream, hearing this and not being able to say anything...
Q: Oh, that's great...
L: Anyway, that was my... that was the reason I first started talking to Gene. 'Cause that began to be big news here right after... John Lear started giving lectures at the libraries around here... so it was in the papers shortly after that.
Q: Is he the son of the Lear jet man?
L: Bill Lear... yeah.
Q: So, this is a wealthy kid?
L: No, his father wrote him out of all the inheritance and all that stuff...
Q: So he's a full time UFO guy?
L: No, he's a pilot -- part time pilot...
Q: How old is he?
L: John always looks like he's sixty... but he's probably 49, I guess.
Q: Okay... so did he join you?
L: Ah, yeah... he showed up and we... there was no way we could leave without him coming along and we really didn't want him to come along... but there was no way out of it... so he did. We went up there and we brought Geiger counters... binoculars... telescopes... radios... guns... I mean, we were ready for anything... so we go up there and we put everything in the trunk... and, but hide the gun underneath the spare tire...
Q: Uzi again?
L: No, this was just a pistol. We were up on the highway trying to decide where to go and everyone suggested that we stay there and I insisted that we go in further... which was a colossal mistake... so we got in the car...
Q: This is closer than you ever watched before?
L: Right...
Q: So in some sense this was progressive... each time you took a greater risk.
L: Oh, we were going to continuously do that...
Q: This was a dirt road now... you're all in one vehicle?
L: All in one vehicle. And we purposely had to get a rented car to fit everyone, cause everyone only had cars with two seats in them... everyone, coincidentally owned sports cars, and Kristen was from out of town and she had rented a car...
Q: What did your wife think of all this stuff?
L: She thought it was neat. All of a sudden she's getting into it. So, we all pile into the car and drive out and wait until about dusk and go down on the road and we get in real close and we saw... well, initially when we're up on the top of the road, you could see this (UNCLEAR) sweeping the air... just looking for anybody.
Q: A helicopter?
L: Bronco's just blasting through the desert all over the place... and we just stayed far, far away.
Q: So you were up on a ridge.
L: Yeah, the highway's up on a ridge.
Q: Did you have your lights off?
L: Well, it was daylight at that time... and we put the tire iron out and made it look like we were changing a tire... did the whole... in fact this is all on video tape... even us doing the fake tire thing... then it started getting dark... the security people started dissipating and then we turned the lights out and drove down the road... just keep it in first gear so we don't have to hit the brakes and have brake lights come on... cause they'd see that... so we roll further than we've ever gone and stop and the way we'd stop was we'd just put it into park and it's go GRRRR-WHAM... so we didn't have to hit the brakes. Then everyone forgot about it... that when you open the door the dome light comes on... so it was like a spotlight in the middle of nowhere and it was almost as if the dome light was connected to headlights in the desert... we open the door and they just went... around us and we knew we were dead. So the concensus was we didn't want them to catch me so we turned around and started leaving real fast... but you could already see that there were Jeeps that were heading us off... closing us off at the pass... so we were absolutely caught and dead... but no one had come to us yet, so we stop in the middle and I get out and I run out into the desert... then... now the rest of this was from them because I was too far away to see... and I'm just laying down in the bushes, but I took the gun with me and they, with the trunk open...
Q: That was smart... did you think you might be killed?
L: Yeah. Yeah, I was really scared then... they whipped the trunk open and set up the telescope and then John Lear gets out and says the stupidest line ever... so they came blasting out in the Jeeps with the guns and everything...
Q: Now these are the...
L: Desert camouflaged... no name, rank, insignia or anything... they're just...
Q: Nicholson is John Lear...
Q: Right.
L: But the guards comes out and John says, I can't remember what he said exactly, but, We're not breaking up a dope deal or anything are we? I mean a real stupid thing... and the guards just stood there in amazement... They said, what are you doing... and John said, we're looking at stars. They know he's just set it up and John says... yeah, we've been here for awhile. And they watched us leave... I really didn't hear any of this... I was just told this... and then they talked to them for awhile... and they said, well, you need to get out of here... you're close to a military installation... blah, blah, blah... just leave. So, they said, okay, fine... they pack up everything, but they don't leave. And they just see the guards drive off. Now, unbeknownst to them, to anyone at that time, it's absolute totally pitch black... you can't see your hand in front of your face. They drove fifty feet and stopped and stood on top of the car with the night vision scopes watching everyone... I mean from here to there... they were right there, but no one could see them. And, we're sitting there and I come back... and it was kind of a jovial type of a relaxed mood and Gene and I frequently joke around a lot and we were saying stupid things... and, as I came back in from the desert, slinging the gun... I said something to Gene like, well, I told the attack force just to lay low until those guys were out of site... and Gene said, well, that's good, okay... and the guys on the Jeeps don't know what's going on...
Q: Could they hear you?
L: Yeah, they heard us fine... cause later this came up at the briefing and so they went to arms with the guns...
Q: Attack force...
L: Yeah, they didn't know if we were joking around or what... but, they're just like, what attack force... and plus a guy just came out of the desert with a gun... so there're like, oh, no...
Q: You couldn't make this up.
L: It's an amazing scene... so we're sitting there and now our car is pointing away... Their vehicle is pointing towards us and they're all there and we can't see them and I'm leaning against the bumper of the car at the back and I put the gun back in the trunk, close it up, and I said, we better get out of here... and we started talking about... well, we saw cars up there and... I don't know where they went... so on and so forth... and I said, I didn't see anything... I was in the bushes... and I think Gene even interjected there and said, with the other guys, right?
L: And I said, oh yeah...
Q: I'm sorry, but I actually blanked for a second, because I was thinking of how to do this on film... would you back up for me...
L: Okay, I'm just sitting...
Q: You've returned... you said...
L: I've returned... I've put the gun in the trunk underneath the tire... I said, I didn't see where the other cars went that were up by the road and looked like there were going to cut us off and I said I just had my head down in the bushes... and Gene said, with the other guys, right. And I said, yeah. Another... so we were just joking around with each other... so we're all collectively just staring out that way, deciding well, should we leave or should we stay... it's public land essentially, we think... so, at that time, we hear a THUD on the ground and this little green glowing dot rolling towards us... one of the guys dropped the night vision scope...
(LAUGHTER)
L: And we're just completely shocked by it... that this thing is rolling across the road and then you see it just get picked up in total blackness... all you see is just this little green dot... so... that was the decision... so I said, let's just get the hell out of here... cause we knew exactly what it was and then Kristen, Tracy's sister, was kind of a little ditz and said, did someone drop a lighter... did any of you guys drop a lighter... just get in the car... let's go. So we drove off. Now we came to the road... now they don't have any jurisdiction over us... but they had called the Lincoln County sheriff, so we came up to the road and the sheriff was waiting there and he just said, stop....
(TAPE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
L: They can hold you there...
Q: Did they take you to jail?
L: No... they can hold you and question you for an hour and then they must let you go. As it turned out, Kristen was going to law school...
(LAUGHTER)
L: ... and...
Q: How old was Kristen?
L: Ah... she was older than Tracy, so she was about my age. And so she looked forward to a confrontation with either the military or the police just because she knew all her rights and all that stuff. So the police get there and... am I leaving out a part... what happened...
Q: I don't think so... this jives perfectly with what I've read and seen... but it gets very interesting when the police get involved...
L: Well... we didn't go to a police station or...
Q: When they opened the trunk?
L: Yeah... what happened was another great John Lear move... if we'd only left him home... they said, well, can we see I.D.'s... so everyone said, well, we don't have our wallets... okay... so he said, what's your name... what's your name... and we told him our names... and it seemed like he was gone for a... then they asked John and...
Q: Were you telling them false names or yours?
L: No, we told them real names. And then he asked John and John said, oh, wait, mine's in the trunk... and we're all mentally trying to tell John... do not open the trunk... and he opens the trunk, cause he did put his wallet in there, and everything in the world is in there... and the cop, of course, walked over to the trunk with John and he opened it up and shined his light in there... and the first words out of his mouth were... what are you guys doing here... we're out star gazing was, I think, the cover story... they said, you're out star gazing... you've got a Geiger counter, what else did we have... I mean all kinds of ridiculous stuff there... shovels and everything... and you guys are out star gazing... and the cop said, well, what is all this stuff for... and we were all just kicking rocks around... we couldn't even think of a lie to tell him... and he said, okay, well, I'm going to have to search the car. And Kristen says, no... and then he gets a call from the guys... the base or the guys directly and then he comes out and he says... where's the gun? So then we knew he absolutely talked to them and he said... originally they saw four people in the car, now there's five... or whatever the hell it was... and some guy walked in from the desert with a gun... and we said, we don't know what you're talking about... that's crazy. So she went back and forth with him... and he said, well, I've got reasonable cause... she said, well, what is it... so he called in another cop... and another cop comes and the reason he called the other cop, he actually went to start his car and it wouldn't start... now we never did pick up on this so he called the other car and he made it know to us... I'm getting a tow truck, cause we're going to tow it down to the police station and strip it... well, the tow truck was for his car because it wouldn't start. So he called the other cop to come over so he could drive him out of there. Now we had no idea that that was the deal and we thought he was just playing with the mike and then here comes the tow truck... and we're thinking... ahhh, Kristen, you better know what the hell you're talking about cause they are taking us out of there. And the funny thing was the cop kept talking and it really seemed like they were going to tow the car and we were going to go to jail and stuff like that unless you just tell me where the gun is and then it will all be over... which is probably a lie anyway, but, I figured I was getting everyone into trouble so I went up to the cop and was trying to interrupt him to tell him where the gun was, but he wouldn't shut the fuck up, cause he was talking to this other cop and, as soon as he stopped talking, he turned around and said, well, I can only legally keep you here an hour... it's been 59 minutes... so, I don't know why you won't let me search the car... and I was so thankful that he didn't let me admit what was going on and then he started reading our names back to the base... and I don't know if it was coincidentally, but when he came to my name, he went in the car and closed the door and then spoke to them... then he came out and said you guys can go. And we got in the car and left. And then the next morning I was called like the normal time, but instead of the lady it was Dennis and Dennis said, well, I'm going to meet you today and... like nothing had happened... but we've got to drive out to Indian Springs Air Force Base, which is kind of a closed, auxiliary Air Force Base in the middle of nowhere up here and he said, I'm going to need a ride, so we're going to take your car... is that okay? I said, yeah, sure.
Q: Were you suspicious?
L: I was a little suspicious, but you know in the back of my mind I thought, they didn't make the connection, that's great... or else Dennis would be pissed. Maybe it's just something else and this is when they took... we drove up and about nine-tenths of the way there... we're entering the town of Indian Springs and it's been like an hour drive.
Q: Where did you meet Dennis?
L: Down at EG&G.
Q: Okay.
L: And it's been like an hour drive and now we're just entering the town of Indian Springs and he says, the only time he ever said anything jokingly was he said, Bob, when we said it was a secret project we didn't mean for you to bring everyone you knew out to see test flights.
(LAUGHTER)
L: And then I already knew... you know, we were there and that they knew and the whole thing. Oh, before that... cause that reminds me of something else... before that we were setting this thing up, Gene and I, so we decided to talk in code over the phone... so we were talking about going fishing and I guess on the phone we said, yeah, well if anything goes wrong... the story is that you guys were going and it would be more suspicious for me not to go, so I went along with you and you dropped me off at the stop sign up on the road and I had nothing to do with it. So the first thing that they say, this was just over the phone between Gene and I, the first thing they say when I get in there, they said, did you ever think we'd ever fall for the stop sign story... so I had no answer for that and then that's when it started. More or less an interrogation... and that's when they kind of got real...
Q: How did that go?
Q: Now, wait, you're out in Indian Springs, what kind of environment are you in?
L: It's like an Air Force Base.
Q: And you walk into a room with other people?
L: Yeah, walk into a room that had... it was Dennis who came with me... and there were two other guys there and they said we're waiting for a couple of people to get here... and they were waiting for the guards that were there... now this is how I found out the whole story... and also how I know that the guards didn't know anything, 'cause I purposely made mention of a flying saucer to them and they got the guards out of the room and they were extremely pissed after that. And these were the guards... I guess they're separate and I guess they're external from the base, which are a different group...
Q: Indian Springs is shut down, you said, though?
L: Well, you can go by there today and there's nothing ever happening there. I mean there's not a soul ever visible and once in awhile if you just kind of stake out the place, cause after this was all over, I just kind of monitored things, once in awhile you'll see the strangest things... like a completely black painted fighter will land there with no insignia on it... people will come out of no where and do some stuff to it, go back in, the plane will take off, and then it returns back to a desolate place... but you can see everything... there's nothing hidden. It's the strangest place... I have no idea what goes on there and it says "Auxiliary Air Force Base" right on the outside.
Q: There's a military housing out there and it's all boarded up...
L: It is like the eeriest place...
Q: That's what's so great, cinematically, he's taken to like this ghost town Air Force Base...
Q: Exactly.
L: Yeah, but, it comes to life sporadically... for no reason and, you know, and then shuts back down.
Q: Hiding something in plain sight.
L: Yeah, it is... it's on 95, if you want to go north of here, you can not go through it... it's right alongside the road... the entire thing is an episode out of "The Twilight Zone" and there's absolutely...
Q: How intense was the interrogation?
L: That was pretty intense. That's when they brought up the phone transcripts, printed transcripts between my wife and the guy, Chris...
Q: First time you were aware of that?
L: Yeah. And then I saw that... well, you know, I skipped the GUFON story. Before that... this is right after I had started talking to Gene... started telling him... and right after we came back from Lear's house, I started looking through his material... which was all stupid things... aliens are here to steal frogs (?) because they need something... I mean, ridiculous things... either that or they're going to eat us... and we had noticed that on a lot of the information they had it was either from the Mutual UFO Network and everything in acronyms... it was MUFON... and the Computer UFO Network, which was CUFON... everything had an UFON name to it... we kind of thought that was funny... and because Gene considered me a source of UFO information... he started calling me BUFON... so, just as kind of a joke on the phone, I called him GUFON... it became a running thing... that night... you know we did that, it was the first phone call and I think he was calling me from a strange phone somewhere and he said, BUFON, this is GUFON... we just did something stupid like that... I said, yeah, what's going on... ah, nothing, just doing the normal stuff... just a bullshit phone call, but if it was someone external listening to it... it would have really sounded wierd now that I look back on it. So it was not twenty minutes later, and this has always amazed me... twenty minutes later... and it takes you twenty minutes to drive from downtown, that the doorbell rings, I come over to the door and there is a computer printout with redline of that conversation... BUFON, GUFON... the stuff we talked about... in little brackets... like, just doing the regular stuff... that was bracketed... and they said, we've got to have a talk about your conversation... and I was like amazed.
Q: Who were these people? Anyone you knew or had seen before?
L: No. Never seen before, but the same type of...
Q: Suits.
L: Yeah, suits that had come... exact same type of guys. And I knew I had signed the order to do that. And I explained who GUFON was... what we were doing... I just said, it's a nickname... and they had me fill out a form that said Gene Huff AKA Gufon and his address and they said, do you have any other aliases?
(LAUGHTER)
L: And to me it was hilarious, it was a funny thing... so that was the first occurrence of the telephone...
Q: So this was the first time you were told about your wife's infidelities in this sort of deserted place... that's heaven.
L: Yeah.
Q: What was the purpose of that?
L: Them telling me? I don't know. I think it was just a smack in the face.
Q: They were mad at you basically for talking.
L: Yeah.
Q: It's wild.
L: I think they were also telling me why... because nothing was coming of it... I really don't know...
Q: What else happened in the interview?
L: That's when they physically started screaming at me... when the gun took out his gun, out of his holster, and that's when they made it known in no uncertain terms that if they felt that I was jeopardizing the secrecy of the project at all, they would kill me, absolutely on the spot.
Q: They said that?
L: Oh, yeah, absol... right to my face.
Q: Pointed the gun at your head?
L: Yeah, yes. That story is absolutely true.
Q: Who did it...
L: An unknown, nothing, stupid guy.
Q: They touch skin, or just point, or what?
L: They just pointed...
Q: Unbelievable.
L: Before they had an M16 is what they usually carried and...
Q: Was the guy in uniform?
L: Yeah.
Q: What else did they ask?
Q: Was Dennis there?
L: Yeah, Dennis was sitting right there.
Q: What was his attitude.
L: Totally silent. He disappeared at that point.
Q: He didn't have a gun pointed at you, so he was less important.
L: Correct.
Q: Did you just return home after that and that was it?
L: No, it went on a little bit further. Actually, you know, I think he pointed a rifle at me.
Q: You weren't struck or physically restrained?
L: No, but, I'm telling you... you should know if it was a gun or a rifle... but this was a really...
Q: I had a gun pointed at me once and all I saw was a black hole.
L: It was a really traumatic event.
Q: I saw this black hole and I could have sworn there was a breeze coming out of it.
L: It was too much stuff at one time... cause the thing with my wife, with the gun and the people yelling at me... and it kind of all... it kind of went into a blur.
Q: Did you think you were going to die?
L: No, not at all. Well, it became... now everything was bouncing off of me... it didn't matter... if the guy cocked the gun and put it in my face, it didn't matter, now I was impervious to everything at that point. And that's when I cracked a smile again... and, you know, right after he said, we'll have no problem killing you... I can't even fake it... it just has to actually happen... and that's when he said, implied that there had been other people that they had killed.
Q: Was that the first time you ever suspected that they had disappeared anybody?
L: Yeah, for real.
Q: Was there ever even rumors about that at the base?
L: No, no one talked about that.
Q: Did they show you death certificates?
L: No, but they said... that's when I smiled and they said... do you think we're kidding about this... would you like to see death certificates?
Q: This was some nervous smile?
L: Right... it just happens... but too much had happened in over the four or five minutes... so now it just didn't matter what they said. And that's when they brought the guys in... because I guess these other two guys that were in charge of the interview hadn't heard the report and they came in and said that's the guy... to me. And they said... something else to them... I don't remember where it was that I inserted it... but somewhere in there I had said something about... I inserted the term flying saucer...
Q: Did you do it on purpose or...
L: Oh, no, totally on purpose... because they were skirting around the topic... they said they were in a restricted area because they were conducting restricted tests... and I said, well, during the flying saucer test... you know, purposely like that, but I can't remember how it was inserted in the wording and I mean, you could instantly see the cringe on everyones' face... they really didn't want any of that said... so... it.... they got the guards out and they finished yelling at me at some length... and it really completely blurred past that... I went back with Dennis and...
Q: Did Dennis have any comment on the drive back?
L: Oh, yeah, he had some negative comments...
Q: He said you'd fucked up or whatever...
L: Yeah, good job, Bob... but very minimal talk and we got back...
Q: Well, this guy was not your friend?
L: No.
Q: He was always a little distant.
L: Yes. Now real distant. Now, when I got back after that, the more... people following type of thing...
Q: They harrassed the shit out of you because they knew you were talking.
L: Right.
Q: What was the worst thing they did?
L: When they shot at the Z.
Q: What went down? You were driving along...
L: Driving from just seeing Gene... and we had just been talking on the phone about a guy named George Knapp, that had always been doing reports on Area 51 and stuff like that... and I was going to go see him.
Q: You were on the phone during this conversation?
L: I was on the phone with Gene saying we were going to set up a meeting.
Q: From here or a public phone?
L: From here. And I drove to Gene's office over on Eastern and then said, well... he had spoken to George... I don't remember exactly how the events went down, but George said he was going to get a satellite link-up truck so they could just take me somewhere, interview me, bounce it off a satellite and then get it back to the station... that was really cool... and I said, okay, we'll do that... we're just going to interrupt in the five o'clock news and say it... because now, for some reason, I really thought I was in trouble... I just had to...
Q: For some reason... you had a gun pointed in your face...
L: But... it was... it just made more sense to me to say something publicly now, because it would just be intolerable to...
Q: What did you have to say to your wife when you came home? Did you confront her about this stuff?
L: No, right now everything was on hold... this was more important.
Q: Did you go home?
L: No, not really. She wasn't home yet anyway... so was out fucking some other guy... so coming back from Gene's, there was this wierd on-ramp from Charleston to the I-15 Fwy and, as I was driving, a car appeared next to me and, I typically drive like a sixteen year old, I never let anybody get in front of me... as I'm driving, I really didn't have time to play around with any one, but I went fast and he went fast and stuff like that... I thought he wanted to race or something... so, right when we came around the turn to get on the on-ramp, I just jammed on the gas and took off. And he was riding along side of me the whole time and I think he was trying to say something to me out the window... though, I never did see...
Q: You don't know who it was?
L: No, but, just as I turned the corner, I glanced back like, now get away from me, and the window was rolled down and all I saw was there was a gun pointed at me...
END TAPE 3 -- SIDE B