S4 - THE ROBERT LAZAR STORY
CALENDAR -- AUGUST 1988 THROUGH AUGUST 1989
(CONTINUATION OF TAPE 6 -- SIDE A)
SEPTEMBER 4, 1988
Tracy's 2nd solo cross-country flight. She was working on her
pilot's license.
SEPTEMBER 7, 1988
Joe, the guy I knew and worked with in Los Alamos, came to visit.
And left on the 10th.
[Groom Lake = 125 miles. This is just a mileage note. It doesn't
occur on this date, it's a note to myself how far the drive
was... that was one of my excursions up there. There will be some
deceiving stuff on the calendar intentionally. We'll run into
other stuff like this.]
SEPTEMBER 13, 1988
Testing some fireworks at the drylake about twenty minutes away.
[As a side note, this is how I spent a lot of my thinking time,
more or less, was just driving up there alone because it's
totally isolated. There's no one there... there's absolutely no
sound... and frankly it looks like a different planet. Why
shooting off fireworks is relaxing, but it's just one of those
things.]
Call Vinny, a guy that was doing some work for me on the body of
the jetcar -- insignificant.
More insignificant stuff here -- ordering chemicals for Desert
Blast.
UFO Film is a note to myself to get a film John Lear gave me out
of the house. He gave me a bunch of documents, after I had first
met him. Then I began to wonder how intelligent it was keeping
that stuff around should there be another surprise visit, more or
less.
OCTOBER 1, 1988
Tracy becomes a pilot. [I met Tracy in Los Alamos and she was
basically doing nothing. She was just working at Pizza Huts and
things like that... and didn't have many friends up there...
nothing was really going on and she moved out here into a strange
environment and we frequently went to air shows and she got a
real kick out of that... so, I paid for her to take one of those
trial flights and she fell in love with it... so, she started
taking lessons. They let her work on the weekends, not as a
secretary, but something there, to kind of work it off and she
got away kind of easy. We got married here. After I left Los
Alamos I was with my first wife.]
OCTOBER 4, 1988
John Lear at 8pm [What's happening here is, I'm trying to show
that I knew John Lear from a long time ago. And I think you're
going to see something really obvious, if I remember... I'll
start calling John something else... well, let me just go through
it, instead of looking ahead. Anyway... that has nothing to do
with that date.]
Q: In this time period, here we are in the beginning of October,
you're running your business.
L: Right, businesses are running fine.
Q: Making probes...
L: Making probes... doing the photo business and basically I was
looking for something to do to give Tracy... so we could have two
incomes... and Tracy would be working the photos and I would go
off full time and work somewhere else and get something a little
more mentally stimulating.
Where the World Series started.
OCTOBER 14, 1988
UFO Cover-up [This is actually on that date... at Shelly's with
Jim. This was interesting... and Jim will recall this day... he
came over... now, before this I didn't know who John Lear was and
had an article in the paper about some guy who said the aliens
are here and they're taking over and all that stuff and is giving
lectures at the library and Jim brought it over and showed it to
me and Jim was thinking about going there and wanted to know if I
wanted to go with him and I told him he was crazy... and what a
total waste of time. And he said, well, I'm going to go and I
said, okay, fine... he said why don't you come over tonight cause
the guy's going to be on TV. So, I think, this is the first time
I saw anything and it was some special that was on TV about
people being abducted and stuff like that and I don't remember
exactly what was going on in there, but John was telling his
normal UFO story and there were a couple of other people... you
know... I've been abducted... so, that was the first time I'd
seen John on TV.]
OCTOBER 15, 1988
Tracy's dad comes to visit. [Which is interesting, about a month
later... there's something here about me sending resumes out --
mid- October.]
Q: Now Tracy's dad lives in Los Alamos.
L: Right.
Q: Works at the lab there or does something else?
L: No, he works at the lab... explosives.
OCTOBER 19, 1988
Jim to Tonapa. [Tracy's dad leaves and Jim is now working up at
the test site on the Stealth... I don't know if that was the
first time he'd been up there... but that's when he's starting
his, more or less, secret work.]
There was something here I crossed out and then wrote John Lear
at 4:30.
(AT THIS POINT THE DOORBELL RINGS AND GENE
ARRIVES)
G: John Lear was on TV and we were making fun of him...
L: In fact I just found that day when he was on...
G: On "On The Record"?
L: Whatever it was.
G: He was on "On The Record" with George in August of
'88, wasn't he?
L: Maybe? August isn't on here.
Q: So you were sitting around making fun of the guy talking about
UFO's...
L: You can't believe the stuff this guy was saying...
G: Well, it was interesting... Lear comes off very respectable...
he looks very distinguished... white hair... the guy's an airline
captain, son of Bill Lear, who holds all these flying records,
and he commands a measure of respect, so he can get people's
attention initially, in fact, some of the first things that we
checked out, for instance, Lear was talking about the U.S.
government had this alien held hostage and he was called EBE-3,
Extraterrestrial Biological Entity-3, and he said he was housed
in a facility called YY-2 in Los Alamos, which was a facility
with double-fairday (sp?) shielding... and since Bob had friends
that worked down there he could check and see if this guy knew
what he was talking about or not. And there was a YY-2 facility,
but they weren't holding any aliens. It was a mail stop. I can't
remember what else he said, so... it was a good avenue to see if
this guy had anything going... also he said Jackie Gleason was a
buddy of Richard Nixon's and was a major contributor to the
Republican Party and that Nixon had gotten Gleason into CIA
Headquarters in Langley, Virginia and shown Jackie Gleason an
alien body they kept on ice there... so, all this stuff sounds
feasible, in fact, this made Bob actually invent the terminology
-- Learonym... as opposed to synonym... homonym... a Learonym
sounds like it's something that could have happened, but didn't.
L: And John is familiar with this... but you're speaking of the
stuff that is half-way reasonable...
G: Well, right, right... if you're an innocent by-stander and you
see this guy on television, you would lend him your ear and then
investigate... and there's some value to that... because people
will go and investigate and find out he's crazy, but that maybe
there is a body of information there they should examine so...
did you tell him about some of Lear's outrageous stuff?
L: I couldn't remember...
Q: Tell me some of it.
G: Lear said there was a roof on Area 51... a five mile by five
mile roof... it was a dome over this... how did the jets get
through it anyway?
L: The remote control...
G: Yeah, the theory... see, some abductees... Whitley Striber,
amongst others, said that these aliens would jam these
needle-like things up their nose or back behind their ears and
there were these little balls that they couldn't ascertain on
x-ray whether there was anything in there or there were strange
things in people's heads... and these were alleged receivers and
transmitters, I guess, where aliens could communicate with the
people without going through their outer ear.
Q: John actually believes this...
G: Not only that... but there were like a million people that had
been abducted and tagged... they call that being tagged... and
those that were tagged, at a specific future date, when the
aliens wanted them to act a certain way, that they would be
activated and then the aliens could control these people with a
remote... TV remote controller device.
Q: That's interesting.
G: And the Stealth fighter... did you tell him about the Stealth
fighter... This was before the Stealth was made public and
Lear... when Lear first met Bob, also, he didn't know who Bob was
and that Bob knew all this stuff and Lear was telling him a story
that the way the Stealth fighter achieved its stealthness was
that it had LCD all over the top and bottom and, say, if you were
a jet flying above a Stealth fighter, there were cameras on the
Stealth fighter that would look at the sky and the LCD's... no,
excuse me, look at the ground... and the LCD's would then make
the top of the Stealth fighter look like the ground... so if
you're in the jet looking down, it would blend in with the ground
beneath it and if you're in a jet looking up at it it will then
exhibit the sky... and that's when Bob learned that LCD's were
highly radar reflective. Bob was actually the first one who took
exception to everything... literally everything... Lear said...
and it was a great comedy show... cause this guy got away with
murder prior to that.
L: He's a unique guy.
OCTOBER 23, 1988
Fly to Ballhead... oh, that's just flying with Tracy. [Who is
listed on here as Jackie, by the way. Her name's Tracy
Jacqueline.]
OCTOBER 25, 1988
EG&G -- okay this must be the first interview.
Q: I didn't see a Teller call.
L: No, Teller calls all the way down here. No, no this is me
dropping the resume off. I dropped it off on the 25th of October.
And like I said, there was going to be a place where I sent out
resumes... they probably all went out around this day.
Q: Now, Bob, when you got a resume to EG&G, did you know what
kind of work they were doing? Or did someone indicate to you.
L: No, I brought them everywhere. EG&G was here... so I hand
delivered it there. But there was nothing special about it.
Q: What did you know about them?
L: Ahh, that they mainly dealt with high speed measurement is all
I knew EG&G did... and that's how the company was started
really... was just photographing high speed events. And, working
at the test site, I thought they were just involved with high
speed data recovery from nuclear devices... and I said, well,
that's acceptable... I'll work there.
G: That's pretty common knowledge in the Las Vegas area...
they're a major employer or a conduit to employment at the Nevada
test site even though there's a lot of contractors out there...
EG&G is the most well known, probably, to the Las Vegas
general public, because of news broadcasts.
OCTOBER 27, 1988
Talk about stuff.
G: That's clear.
L: Like I said, this is even going to confuse me.
Q: That's okay... this is good.
Stu and Melissa come to visit again. They leave the day after.
NOVEMBER 1988
L: Now we're in November. There's another random John Lehr down.
That's another one.
G: You're in November?
L: November... the beginning of November.
G: Because George did another "On The Record"...
remember, he did a two-parter and then Lear did a two-parter with
Bill Cooper.
Q: Geez... he does have a good memory. You can remember that?
From '88. You ask me where I was in '88, I'd have to sit and
think a minute.
G: Well, I had gone through this before... were you aware there
was a movie deal before this?
Q: Yes.
G: Okay... and a screenwriter before... in fact, I understand
that it's illegal or improper, but when you get all this done and
everything and you're done and everything is totally proper...
we'd love you to read this great screenplay this other guy
wrote...
Q: I appreciate the fact that you know I can't read it now...
G: But someday you can... and when you can...
Q: Someday I can...
G: And when you can, I would like you to reflect and say how did
this guy get this story out of this...
Q: Well, I'll simply say that Bob told him the story... that it
was all Bob's idea.
L: Carol's birthday... oh, my sister... okay.
G: I saw that, too, and I thought, boy is that strange.
NOVEMBER 17, 1988
L: See, I wonder if I'm screwing myself up here with my own...
Q: It's okay... it's absolutely okay...
L: Linda Howe... I didn't know about Linda Howe for... on the
17th of November...
Q: Who was Linda Howe?
G: Cattle mutilation queen... on a video called "The Strange
Harvest" back in '79 or '80...
Q: Oh, I have that book... I believe I have that...
G: "The Strange Harvest" was the video that was much
better than the book.
L: Oh, move into large bedroom...
G: You talk about recording an insignificant event on your
calendar... oh, is that when you disassembled the lab in the
master bedroom and made a bedroom.
NOVEMBER 29, 1988
L: Okay, Teller called the 29th.
Q: Tell me what he said again? It was a short call, evidently.
L: It was a short call. He recalled our meeting in Los Alamos and
basically said, there might be someone who might be interested in
you and...
G: You want me to add if I remember anything?
L: Yes.
Q: Chime in.
L: 'Cause Gene was around at that time...
G: When Edward Teller called, I said, who's Edward Teller... but
Teller said that he was no longer active and only now worked in a
chief consultant capacity.
L: Right. This is great.
G: And so he couldn't directly give you a job... but he could
give you the number of a guy you could get in contact with here
in Las Vegas... and he gave you a number. And I don't know what
else you talked about...
L: That's better than I remembered it... yet it happened to me.
Q: Did you call the guy?
L: Yeah.
Q: Evidently. Did you call him right away or did you wait...
L: Yeah, I called him right away and that's why a couple of days
later on... December 1, Thursday, I already had an interview.
Q: Okay, now, here's an important question... when you called the
fellow at EG&G... you called whom?
L: I don't remember the guy's name... he wasn't a player.
Q: Was he one of the gentlemen in the meeting on the panel...
when you went in there?
L: Yeah.
Q: Did he know you when you called?
L: Yes. Teller had already spoken to him.
Q: So he said, thank you very much for calling...
G: Were you aware that this guy actually worked for EG&G?
L: No, I called EG&G because that's where the phone rang and
that's where we met... but they talked so lowly about the
EG&G people and personnel... I have a hard time believing
that anyone had anything to do with EG&G.
Q: So, this guy said come on in on December 1st.
L: Right.
Q: So this was your first interview there.
L: That's right.
DECEMBER 1, 1988
First interview EG&G.
Q: And this is where he said, you're over-qualified... we don't
have anything.
L: Right. But we might have something in the near future. Which
was probably a day or two after. Okay, I went out... that's where
the other interview was... now why that's not written down, I
don't know. Unless something is written here, which is scribbled
out... cause that's about where it should have happened. It was
about a day after.
Q: They called you back and said would you come in that day?
L: Right. And that's when the big interview was... wait, that's a
Saturday... that's impossible.
Q: Well, that's okay... we'll say a day or two later.
L: It might have been Monday the 5th... and the only reason it's
not written down is cause we thought Tracy was pregnant that
day... That's a PRG=1.
G: Oh, Preg One, that's right.
L: Then there's doctor stuff, so... and the day doesn't seem to
start till three o'clock, so that makes sense to me.
Q: Now, would they have called you that morning and asked if you
could come in that day.
L: Yeah... that's exactly the way everything operated there...
just like with the phone calls.
Q: Okay.
DECEMBER 6, 1988
L: The following day the 6th was another short interview...
meeting people and then finally going up there.
Q: This is the day they flew you up there... the sixth... one day
after the panel?
L: That doesn't make sense. This is the day that I went there. I
remember writing "Trip to Nowhere" on there.
G: That's when you went to S4 the first time.
L: Yeah, this is the first trip to Area 51.
G: Are you sure... where was the EG&G...
L: Here.
G: That's EG&G at four... where's the EG&G over here?
L: Here.
G: Wow... that had to be dropping the resume off.
L: Yeah, I know... that's when the resume...
G: Well, what was this on the 28th?
L: See, I don't know.
G: Looks like you scribbled out EG&G.
L: It was always the day before Teller called, though.
Q: Well, this will still work... you can wrestle with your
memories and say... was that right or wrong... no one's going to
really be too interested in...
L: Well, obviously this is the day I went up... this was the day
of the first interview... the second interview was somewhere in
there...
Q: Trip to Nowhere is December 6th... and that's about a four
o'clock flight up there?
L: Right.
Q: And they called you at two... three?
L: Right before two o'clock.
Q: Okay. Now, you had no idea they were going to call you, right?
L: Right. I had no idea at all.
Q: Okay. Did you take anything or just your two shoes... you just
went down to the airport and...
L: Just went there...
Q: And they told you to get on the airplane and...
L: Well, no, that was what part of the time was at EG&G...
they said your job's going to take place mainly at a remote area
up within the confines of a test site... you'll go up there and
we'll show you around... it didn't seem like anything unusual to
me.
Q: Were you the only person who was giving that little briefing?
L: Yeah, there was no... Dennis came with me. That was the first
meeting...
Q: You and Dennis and the person giving you the briefing?
L: Right.
Q: And you and Dennis got on the airplane and there were some
others on the airplane?
L: Right.
Q: Okay. Now, that was the second time you were with Dennis?
L: Right. Aside from the big interview... that was the first time
I went anywhere with Dennis. People visiting... Tracy's not
pregnant.
DECEMBER 11, 1988
Fireworks show... in the middle of December.
G: An unusual fireworks show.
L: Boy, that's odd.
G: But that's true... because remember you and Tracy and I went
up on one (UNCLEAR)... so you were preparing for something, but I
don't know what it was.
DECEMBER 14, 1988
L: Black and white Groom Lake photo done. I think this is when I
blew up a photo of Groom Lake to see...
G: That was that old photo of Groom Lake from the '60's or
something... wasn't it?
L: Right... I had just gotten back from there about a week ago...
Q: And you wanted to see what?
L: If it had changed...
Q: Well, it sounds to me like you were interested in seeing where
you were up there?
L: Right.
Q: Where did that photograph come from that you blew up? That
negative?
L: Where did that come from?
Q: That's okay... that's interesting... so you were in the
darkroom taking a look at where you were.
G: I think you made a negative from another photo and enlarged
that negative of that photo... you know what I mean... I don't
think you had access to a negative...
L: No...
G: I think we had gotten another picture from somewhere and he
made a negative and then enlarged that...
L: I was trying to look for the building that I went in...
Q: Okay. Was it there?
L: I couldn't tell. It was just too big.
Q: When you got off the airplane up there, what did they do...
did they just drop you on an airstrip and you walk off into a
receiving area...
L: No... there's like a little electric... not a golf cart
thing... but one that seats several people... like a tour bus
type of thing... but all open and that just takes you from the
strip to the last couple of buildings on the end...
Q: People get off at different points...
L: No, they all pile on that and you go into this big cafeteria
type area...
Q: Where there machines that... candy machines...
L: Yeah... there were machines, but there's also a buffet type
thing.
DECEMBER 20, 1988
L: The Alpha Probe Contract was renewed on the 20th. Tracy's dad
visits on the 23rd... her sister comes in on the 26th... Robin...
this is when, now that I have my job, I'm training Wayne's wife,
'cause Tracy decided she no longer wanted to do photos...
training Wayne's wife how to do photos... so...
DECEMBER 26-30, 1988
L: Within the 26th through the 30th is when Thigpen showed up.
Cause Robin was here and so was Kris... Robin and Kris were here
the day Thigpen showed up... so within those five days is when
Thigpen showed up and before this... somewhere... was another
surprise visit from those guys that was never recorded.
Q: Before Thigpen.
L: Right.
G: You already know Thigpen was with the OFI, right?
Q: No, you say OFI... I'm familiar with the OSI... but what is
the OFI?
G: The Office of Federal Investigations... which is not something
you can look up in the phonebook... it's not a public access like
the FBI or CIA... and I'm not totally... George Knapp might be
able to help you out a little more there... but they
apparently... they do background checks for people that need
clearance... they do the background checks and they are a
division of the Office of Personnel Management... OPM... which is
headquartered in Pennsylvania... and OFI is something almost
nobody's ever heard of...
Q: I had never heard of them... background investigations that I
was familiar with were done by the Defense Investigative
Service... DIS... and sometimes the FBI would get involved... so
this is a new one for me and OSI... is Office of Special
Investigations...
G: This was definitely OFI... they have an office here in town...
L: Yeah, George Knapp managed to track them down...
G: And he had written down the name of Mike Thigpen and a phone
number and gave it to me and I lost the piece of paper, but I
remembered Thigpen's name... I told George Knapp... George Knapp
found out Thigpen worked for the OFI... we then told Knapp,
because we didn't have the phone number, that John Andrews, of
Testor, the one doing the disc... John is kind of a hub for a lot
of information... John found out that it was the OFI here in town
and that they were a division of the Office of Personnel
Management in Pennsylvania and gave us the number of Thigpen and
his boss' name and... John Andrews was also the guy... we were
talking about John Lear before, just to let you know how Andrews
fits in and the background... is even... by the time we ever
heard of Lear... and Lear had already gone off the deep end... he
was probably right about the deep end, actually, but, anyway,
Lear, himself, in the mid-'80's, I guess, was a disbeliever and
kind of pooh-poohing UFO's and John Andrews is the guy who
scooped in the models for the Stealth Fighter and the SR71 and U2
and these guys were always out trying to glance glimpses of it,
proto-type aircraft, and Andrews knew Lear from somewhere... and
Andrews heard Lear making fun of that and said, hey, there's
something to this and you ought to check it out. And John Andrews
was actually the guy that got John Lear on the trail and Andrews,
subsequently, he wanted the disc model to be his coup de grace
and he wanted to do this and then retire...
L: I never knew that.
JANUARY 1, 1989
Q: I appreciate you chiming in like this...
L: I'm already calling you GUFON, here... and right up there,
you're Gene... so...
G: 'Cause I had been reading all that UFO stuff.
L: Yeah... I told them the GUFON...
G: Okay... we were just making fun of MUFON...
L: So before this... before January 1st is when they came in with
the transcript to the door... with a conversation between Gene
and I and had outlined various things we were talking about... I
thought that happened much further on... but it must have
happened...
G: Are you sure you're not thinking of the one with Jim...
because they did one with Jim before the one with you and I.
L: Huh?
G: I thought that's how I remembered it... the first time...
L: What's screwing me up is I purposely wrote stuff out of order
on here...
G: Yeah... he's stealth himself...
L: But it's not suppose to backfire on me...
G: But I remember them questioning you about a conversation with
you and Jim... 'cause Jim was working up at TTR and the... Slim
Jim... all that stuff... calling Slim Jim...
L: Right... oh, right.
G: That happened before you and I.
L: I forgot all about that.
Q: What happened there?
L: It was almost an identical situation that happened to Gene and
again they came in and, at that time, now Jim and I are talking
cause he's working up at Tonapa... that's a secure area... and
I'm working where I am... and we say very little on the phone,
because Jim is working on his clearance and I really don't
remember how the conversation got started, but it was, again, I
think it was the use of a nickname, right...
G: I wasn't involved in that... I just remember talking about
it...
L: That got it started and I never did call him Jim during the
conversation and that brought them right over to the house
afterwards.
Q: So they came over with the transcript?
L: Yeah.
Q: And said, who were you talking to and what is this about?
L: Right... who's the guy, Slim, I think is what was said...
G: You guys might have chirped on the phone...
L: Boy, yeah, that makes a lot of sense...
Q: What?
G: I don't even know where it...
L: I have no idea how it started... this is years ago... because
Jim and I have known each other for a long time, but, when Jim
called... or if I called there and Vicky answered the phone...
instead of saying, hi, hello... he always makes a bird chirp
noise and I do the same thing.
G: You know how people do stupid things... when they chirped to
each other... instead of saying hi, this is Bob...
L: Oh, I know exactly what it was... we did something like that
and said something like... what's up Slim... and then it was...
nothing I can talk about on the phone... remember that? And he
said, okay, I'll see you later. So, they came over right away
thinking that this was a plan to set up a meeting between us two
and exchange information in person.
Q: Now, you had been to Trip to Nowhere one time...
L: No, no... I've gone there twice...
Q: So, you've been up there twice... so you've actually been to
S4?
L: Yeah, now I was already at S4 when...
Q: When they came over with the transcript... the chirp script...
G: What did you go to S4 twice in December, right?
L: No... S4 once... Groom Lake once.
G: Oh... okay.
L: And I went before Christmas. So before the 23rd...
G: Because they broke for Christmas, didn't they...
L: Yes, before the 23rd is the second trip there and I don't know
where that occurred.
Q: Did the fellows with the transcript come over before Thigpen
or after? Or do you remember?
L: The fellows with the transcript came over after Thigpen...
that's why this would make a lot more sense if this was Jim...
this calendar's doing exactly the opposite of what it's suppose
to...
Q: Confusing the enemy...
L: Right... whatever it is it's effective... anyway, you know
about those events and they did occur and they occurred after
January 1st.
Q: Now, if they're going to shut down... aerospace and defense
companies normally shut down for that entire week... did they?
From Christmas until New Years? You know... the whole government
operations... being dead in the water...
L: Okay... hold on... no... cause this is the day...
JANUARY 7th, 1989
L: Okay, no, that's right... that's right... and this is the day
that they had done the allergen test up here...
Q: The allergen test was the 23rd of December?
L: Well, I'm saying before that date... I went on the second trip
to S4... where I drank the pine fluid and here it is the 7th when
I said there was lots of blood in my urine and I collapsed... and
so on and so forth... and on the following Monday I went to the
doctor.
(PHONE RINGS. MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON.)
JANUARY 9th, 1989
Q: Let me repeat that... that was the 9th of January and that's
when you went to the doctor and you got a shot of Demerol and
what happened?
G: Well, it was just fine because I called and he was high... he
had never done any drugs in his whole life and I gave him a shot
of Demerol and he was slurring his words and everything and I
didn't know what was wrong.
(START OF TAPE 6 -- SIDE B)
JANUARY 12, 1989
L: That looks like a trip to Los Alamos on the 12th of January.
Q: Is this probe related?
L: Yeah.
Q: Okay.
L: Leaving the next day. Buy the first 6" shell on Sunday.
JANUARY 16, 1989
L: Work at 4pm -- here's another trip.
Q: Okay, that's 16 -- January.
L: Right. Now Lear is written at the top here and I don't know
why -- looks like it was written in after the date was written,
but I can't be sure.
Q: Just so that you're anchoring with regards to these trips...
is this a trip in which you were exposed to files?
L: Oh, yeah, all of them were.
Q: Okay.
L: Unfortunately, they're not all going to be listed here... and
Q: Is this a trip in which you... had you seen the spacecraft...
the disc? At this point.
L: At this point, yes, probably so.
Q: Okay.
L: Yes, because we had one... this is probably the first time I
saw it.
Q: 16, January.
L: Right. Sitting outside... because this would have been the
third trip there... and I remember the third trip was when I came
in the side entrance.
G: And you started acting a lot more secretive and wierd in
January...
Q: Now, Gene, how did he start to act... secretive and wierd...
give me an example...
G: He compartmentalizes information, anyway... he wasn't paranoid
in the classic sense of the word... but, he wouldn't talk about
anything that even skirted the issue... I mean, there's nothing
wrong with one of your friends saying, how's your new job. But,
it would be a big deal to him.
Q: You asked him... what did he say?
G: Probably in sign (?)... you know, something unbelievable...
some dirty (?) answer... but, I mean, but he had worked at Los
Alamos... he worked on secret things before... so, you would just
think that he's working on something he can't talk about... you
wouldn't go... well, I bet he's working on flying saucers... but,
he was a little more defensive than you would think he would be
if he was working on some type of bomb or missile, which the
average person wouldn't care about anyway... or understand... he
was a little defensive and you got the... my perception from his
attitude was... let's just stay off that subject... and then he'd
also talk... not about the job... but about the security check...
I mean, I knew Thigpen had come by and these guys would drop by
his house and so, in all probability, his phone was tapped and
who knew if they had come back or whatever... so, it was... you
just couldn't talk about it... you could make small talk about
anything, except anything about what he'd been up to lately as
far as his new job. And it's a strange job... he gets a job and
he's leaving at four in the evening and coming home at random
times at night...
Q: What did you think about that? Did you comment to anybody that
this was kind of a wierd situation?
G: No, because I didn't really know enough about... I'm not a
scientist, or anything, I've never worked in a scientific
program, or a government program, and that could be normal. A lot
of people here... for instance guys... there're a lot of people
working at the test site here in town and the test site will
provide small studio type apartments for these guys so they can
pay some nominal fee and go up and stay all week, rather than
take a bus out and back every day and be beat at the end of the
week. A lot of guys without kids... or single guys... I think it
was something crazy like seven bucks a day or eleven bucks a day
or something to rent these apartments and stay up there all
week... so that type of activity isn't unusual.
Q: January 16th... now you said something about coming in the
side door and you saw it outside or something...
L: Coming in the hangar door instead of going around the back
into the office entrance...
Q: Okay.
L: Umm...
Q: That's the time when you really thought it was something we
were building...
(DOORBELL RINGS.)
L: Right.
(MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
JANUARY 19, 1989
L: Another Los Alamos trip on the 19th... stayed at my friend
Joe's out there.
Q: You and Joe talk about what... anything about your new job?
Did he know you had a new job?
L: Yeah... I think... no... he knew I had a new job... and I was
still just being secretive about everything.
Q: Okay. Now... critical point... you've seen a disc... you are
reading files... have the files, at this point, indicated to you
that that disc isn't one of ours...
L: Yes.
Q: So, at this point you really know that...
L: Oh, yeah, I know what's going on now.
Q: Okay.
JANUARY 24, 1989
L: And, in fact, when I get back from Los Alamos on the 24th... I
go out again...
Q: 24th... of January.
L: Right.
Q: Okay. Is that always listed as "Trip to Nowhere"?
L: No... it's "go to work" here... "go to
work" back here... my birthday's on the 26th...
JANUARY 26, 1989
Q: What did you do on your birthday?
L: Went out with GUFON and his wife to Alpine Village... a
Swedish restaurant... that was the first time I ate rabbit, I
think.
G: Or was it duck?
L: No, rabbit.
JANUARY 28, 1989
L: Tracy's sister comes out.
Q: Tracy's sister's name is...
L: Kris...
Q: Kris... and this is... she's studying to be a lawyer.
L: Right.
G: She switched vocations, didn't she... she was going to take
Japanese or Chinese or be an interpreter... or was it a Chinese
speaking lawyer...?
L: Who knows.
G: She was a nut, though. I don't think she ever did anything, do
you?
L: I don't know. By the way, just a side question here, don't
they, if they're... I imagine Tracy's got to be part of the
screenplay in some respect...
Q: Um hmm... but real or in a fictional scene... it depends on
how we eventually work it out... because what you may want to say
is... I don't really want this is there like that... because it
has to do with my private life... let's just fictionalize this
person...
L: Well, that's what I was wondering was if they're going to be
represented in a movie, don't you need their permission? Because
the last time Guber Peters asked her... she said no.
(MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
L: Well, however, that's going to be... it's going to be
difficult to get her permission for anything.
FEBRUARY 1989
Q: Now where are you making... where are you manufacturing the
probes at this point?
L: Los Alamos.
Q: You're doing it all there.
L: In a friend's house, yeah.
Q: Okay.
G: You didn't shave your beard off until February?
L: Yeah, I was shocked... that's the most shocking thing...
G: I thought you shaved your beard off when you went to the
EG&G interview... because you were looking very
business-like.
L: That's certainly nothing I would have purposely put somewhere
else... that's really strange. I wonder what prompted me to do
that?
G: Here's another thing for the missing days there, when he just
put an 'X" in it and didn't write that he went to work...
keep in mind now the security guys are dropping by randomly and
can look at his calendar... so he can't put down... worked at
S4...
Q: Now, Bob, when you're doing this calendar... was there any
particular reason for having done a calendar like this?
L: Oh, I'd done it for years... I got in that habit all the way
back... I've got... I think I've got fifteen years of
calendars... it's just total, complete habit... I can't not do
it... it's cause I've got such a terrible memory, it's the only
thing were I can... and it saved me a lot of times... on
different things... when did I get insurance and so on and so
forth... there's always been one up somewhere. So, it's habit, I
guess.
G: Aren't there just big blotches of days where you just
"X" out days and don't write anything... any of those
can be work days?
L: Yeah, I was just looking for something that might look...
There's nothing in February... well, I went to work in there
somewhere. Where I don't know... I don't see anything...
Q: Once a week?
L: No, not always... there should have been a couple of trips
during that month.
Q: Okay. You're in the lab now?
L: Umm hmm.
Q: Gene, are you noticing a change in his behavior as he gets
deeper and deeper into this program?
G: Yeah, that he wasn't any fun anymore.
(LAUGHTER)
G: I mean he really wasn't. I mean we have fun now, even after he
told us... even after... you know, it's easy to relax and make
fun and have laughs about things in the past, but at that time it
was a (UNCLEAR)... because Bob wouldn't talk about anything, he
would be very abrupt and discreet on the phone because he
presumed they were listening to him... and he was right, you
know... and, so, you couldn't hardly talk about anything and it
was just kind of a drag.
L: Okay...
Q: How often did you see him... once a week... twice a week?
G: About once. His photo lab was still doing the photos... so he
was involved with that... but later I see him five days a week,
sometimes... but, you know, there were other things going on...
remember, we were... that's when we got the small business
innovative research program... which is a big government
(UNCLEAR) by different agencies for companies of 400 people or
less... they put up funding and they need innovative research in
different levels... level 1, 2, 3... for instance, the guys who
fly the F15's or this or that, they need a cooling system to go
inside their flight suits to keep them cool... for instance if
it's level three, you can get all the information, they go...
here's where we're at and here's where our problem is... what is
your idea to solve it and, if you come up with some ideas, then
they'll fund... give you money... and then, if you further the
idea, make a working model, they can be manufactured... like even
the defense contract can buy it from you... and this is to keep
all the big, giant companies from getting all the business.
MARCH 22, 1989
L: March 22nd I have written down -- "go to there"...
now, I have a feeling that that wasn't a trip to work. Because on
the...
MARCH 29, 1989
L: Jim, GUFON and Jackie go fishing...
G: ... which is... fishing is Groom Lake...
L: Right. So "go to there"...
Q: Wait a minute, fishing is Groom Lake... tell me that a
different way... when, you say...
L: "Go fishing" is the code meaning...
G: Groom Lake is the drylake bed... Area 51... so "going
fishing" was when he took us up to...
L: When I knew the test schedule...
Q: So, this is a Wednesday...
L: Oh, yeah, it is a Wednesday... and this is a Wednesday, too...
good point... so these are two dates when we're out spying...
Q: Okay, what are the dates?
L: Wednesday the 22nd of March and Wednesday the 29th of March.
Now the 22nd of March must've been the first time that we ever
went.
G: My son was born March 15th and I had a little baby and my
in-laws were still in town... so here's the whole family at the
house and Bob and his wife drop by and...
Q: Now, you didn't know anything about this before...
G: Oh, yeah, he had told us now...
Q: Okay, wait... step me back... to the first time he comes to
tell you.
G: I don't know what date it was but we were driving down Alta
Street in my car and I don't know where we were going and I said
something... I said, you don't think my car's bugged, do you? He
said, no, I said, well...
Q: Why'd you say that?
G: Well, because I knew about the security check, I knew he was
generally paranoid, I knew whatever he was doing at work, he
wouldn't talk about... and I said, you ever going to tell me what
you're doing at work... because I thought he would if he got a
chance... and that's when he told me he was working on this
disc...
Q: What did he say?
G: He said... "they've got 'em."
L: That's right.
G: Now, I had seen programs with John Lear and stuff on TV saying
there were flying saucers out there... but I didn't necessarily
believe him...
Q: So he said, "they've got 'em."
G: "They've got 'em."
Q: Did you know...
G: I knew right away... they've got flying saucers that're called
discs and he proceeded to tell me about them and I was shocked...
Q: What did you feel when he said "they've got 'em"?
G: Exhilarated, because I knew then... now in hindsight... it was
dominos all the way down the line... this is why his personality
changed... in other words, the personality changes and his
activities now made sense and, also, it reinforced, even at this
point, that I knew this guy was telling the truth... because,
even if it's your friend, you've got to be apprehensive... I mean
this changes everything... this means everything... and he told
me that they had 'em... they had discs... they had nine of
them... there were nine hangars... he was in the lab... he told
me there were all different shapes... one was a Sportsmodel...
Q: This is as you're driving down the street?
G: Yeah... we're driving down the street and then he also told
me... I remember... that the one looked like they had put it up
on the edge and shot a projectile through it... because there was
a hole in it as though they had tested the skin's integrity and
that's when he first started teaching me about space/time
distortion, because I said, well, maybe they shot it down...
because remember now I'm reflecting on bullshit that I've heard
John Lear and others say on television and read in Omni and
things like that... and he explained space/time distortion and
how impractical it would be that any jet fighter of ours could
ever catch one of those things... much less get a missle to shoot
through it.
Q: Where were you going in the car?
G: I don't know.
Q: What did you say when you got home?
L: Did you tell Mary when you got home?
G: I don't think I told her at first, cause you told me not to
tell anybody and stuff like that and I knew I couldn't trust her
to not accidentally act like she knew if we were out...
Q: So when did you tell her?
G: When did I tell her?
Q: Do you remember?
G: After the baby was born. Because remember now... she gave
birth on March 15th and... though she's not very Catholic
anymore, she was raised Catholic and would be more reluctant...
Q: How did you tell her?
G: I just told her... once I knew he had told Jim... now,
remember, after he told me, I didn't know if he told Jim... you
know what I mean, in other words...
Q: But he hadn't.
G: I don't know... maybe he had... although I'm friends with Jim,
we don't call each other and hang out together. He and Bob have
that relationship. So once I knew Jim knew, however I knew that,
I told Mary and she was thrilled... But she had seen all the Lear
stuff and everything on TV and I had been an open-minded guy to
this, I mean from "Journey to the Gods" back in the
mid-70's and all of that stuff... so we certainly entertained the
possibility and, remember, Lear was a pretty convincing guy. He
was throwing around CIA headquarters and Jackie Gleason and
Richard Nixon and Jackie Gleason apparently had a house that was
shaped like a disc and had one of the biggest occult libraries of
anybody in the world... so these were Learonyms... these were
believable stories and so we were pretty open-minded about the
possibility... we were actually amazed that we knew somebody who
got into the program.
Q: So, the baby's born and then Bob says, do you want to come out
and see a test flight?
L: That was seven days afterwards.
G: Well, about five days afterwards, or something, and again, he
had already told us at this point, I knew what he was working on
and stuff, and I started reading... getting books... I appraised
Lear's house in exchange to get a bunch of tapes from Lear... all
kinds of UFO information, which were taped terribly, but was
really good. It was all kinds of UFO stuff and, so anyway, what
had happened was, we couldn't speak in Bob's house, so we went
out in the driveway and, this was after they didn't call him to
work for a few weeks, I guess, so I told him I was reading about
all this UFO information and they talk about the Roswell crash in
'47 and the alledged Russian landings in the '50's and the
(UNCLEAR) in the '60's and I said, well, if all this is going
on... there must be something going on somewhere now... if there
are aliens here and they're flying around and whatever there
venue is... they must be here now... that's where I want to be.
And he said... what are you doing Wednesday night.
L: That's right. That's exactly right.
G: I said, what did you have in mind. And then he tells me. That
he knows the disc schedule and stuff and he's going to take us
out there then to watch the disc... which was one of the most
thrilling...
Q: Tell me about this... there was the three of you... this was
the first time...
L: It was Jim, also.
Q: Oh, Jim... wasn't Jim up at Tonapa...
L: Yeah, but he came down sporadically...
G: He'd have to work five and seven day stretches, but it wasn't
always Monday through Friday...
L: Right. So it was me, Gene, Jim and Tracy. Right? I have to
check it with you. No, no, no... that was the second time... the
first night was...
G: Lear... no, Lear was the last night.
L: I know you and I were there... it must have been Lear, because
we had the telescope...
G: Yeah, we invited Lear, because Lear's got an eight inch
Selectron (sp?) and he knew, I didn't know... I'd never been out
there, but he knew we were going to be a long way away... over a
mountain range and so we had met Lear by then and Lear had a
telescope and it was me, you, Lear and Tracy.
L: Okay.
Q: What car?
G: It was Lear's RV.
L: Okay.
Q: You're driving up there. Everybody was... was this
light-hearted conversation... was this deadly serious... were you
afraid?
L: I remember...
G: Here's a guy telling me I'm going to get to see an
extraterrestrial vehicle tested... you know...
L: And, as we're coming up the mountain, which goes down... now
the thing is going to take off... I forget at what time... 9:15
or 8:15... we're coming up the hill and the transmission gives
out on the motor home and we're stuck in the middle of the road
on a hill in the middle of the desert...
G: So I hitchhike with a guy coming from either Area 51 or
(UNCLEAR), I get in his truck and he's going to take me all the
way down the hill to get some transmission fluid at the gas
station down there... and on the way down, and this guy's
drinking beer, you know, guys drive through central Nevada and
they pick up a six-pack for safe driving on the way home... and
we're going down and I start talking with his guy about Area 51
and, though he wouldn't really open up, he was a complete
stranger, he (UNCLEAR) working at Area 51 and that you do have to
get clearance to get anywhere in there and he had worked with a
man who had had a heart attack and they called an ambulance and
the ambulance didn't have clearance to get inside the gate... so
they had to bring the guy from inside there to the gate and it
took too long and the guy died... and had he gotten to the
ambulance he would have lived... but just by virture of security
clearance, they held the ambulance at the gate and made the guy
be brought out to the gate and the guy died... this is the story
from this complete stranger. He takes me down there to get
transmission fluid... I buy him another six-pack of beer to thank
him and he takes me back out...
Q: Oh, he drove you back up?
G: He drove me back up... I was going to have to hitchhike back
up again...
Q: So you were still going up the grade... and is this on the way
to what is now Alien Inn?
G: No... Alie-Inn is past there... it's thirty miles past
there...
L: Actually that heart attack story I thought came from Dennis...
but it didn't... now I remember where the origin of that story
was...
G: Oh, yeah...
Q: So you get the transmission fluid back in...
G: We go back up, we put the transmission fluid in... we turn out
the lights... sneak down the road... set up the telescope...
Q: This was a paved road, though?
L: No, dirt road.
G: Gravel road.
L: While you're talking, let me just try and find "The Day
After" on tape...
Q: Gene... tie this one off for me... you went up, parked, set up
the telescope... what happened?
G: Well, after dark, a light appeared up in the sky... started
jumping around... pretty thrilling... now, listen, it was really
thrilling that day... but the reason I'm playing it down was
because the next week, when Jim was with us... not Lear...
Q: What did Lear say when he saw the light?
G: He knew it.
L: He was excited...
G: He knew they were out there... it just confirmed it.
L: It was more like... "I told you."
G: Right.
Q: Now, you were looking at it through the telescope?
L: No, I wasn't... because I thought I'd let them see what was
going on.
G: Yeah, we got to see it through a telescope and it was still
far away through the telescope... you could see an elliptical
light and it jumped around and danced around in the air...
Q: Could you see it with the naked eye?
G: Oh, yeah, you could. When we got the best shot of it... Lear
got his eye on the eyepiece... and when we got the best shot of
it... he's getting out of the way and he kicks the tripod and
moves the telescope. And, if you think it's easy, it is tough to
get that thing on that telescope... and the next week...
L: We really hated him...
G: Yeah, we really hated him after that.
Q: It was approximately how many miles away?
L: Thirteen, I would guess.
Q: Okay.
G: But the next week, we rented a Lincoln, because we all had
small cars and...
Q: Now this is the second time?
G: This is the second time.
L: Which was on...
G: April 29th...
L: No, wait... March...
G: March 29th...
Q: Now, were you excited that week, knowing that the next week
you were going to go out and look at this again?
G: I felt so privileged... I felt like the luckiest son of a
bitch in the world... he's a physicist and was in the program and
stuff... I'm getting this free of charge... nobody wants to kill
me... I realized how lucky we all were... as a writer, don't you
feel fortunate to jump on... this is the best story... imagine if
Jesus was here... it's got... infidelity... it's got government
cover-up... it's got... isn't this great?
(LAUGHTER)
Q: You're in the Lincoln... take me out...
G: Okay, we rent a Lincoln cause we've all got small cars...
Q: Who signed on the dotted line for the Lincoln?
G: I did... I was the only one who had a charge card I think...
L: No, no, no, wait... wasn't that Kristin...
G: No...
L: He remembers better than I do...
G: There was a Lincoln... I rented it... Budget Rent A Car and so
Jim and I... we're going up... Jim and I are in the front... Bob
and Tracy are in the back... Bob's got a video camera... I think
Bob was also explaining space/time distortion to Tracy in the
back seat, if I remember right and the funny thing was, we're
going up and Jim's looking out the window and it looks like these
two F15's are following us. And Jim's looking out the window and
we said, what're you looking at and he says, I know this is an
optical illusion but it seems like these F15's are folllowing
us... as though we'd be important enough... and, so as a joke, I
said, that's okay, I'll get rid of them, I've seen 'Top Gun"
and I started backing the car... back and forth on the highway...
L: He did that...
G: But then we got up there... we got up and turned the lights
out... we snuck down the road and waited about...
Q: Same place... you're going to the same place.
G: About four and a half...
Q: Now, you've got no telescope this time...
G: Yeah, we've got a telescope... it's a small telescope, video
camera, which is what I think he's cueing up there... yeah, this
is the actual sound from that night, isn't it?
L: Yeah, this is the whole thing... I even have the tape of us in
the car, joking around.
Q: Who's running the camera? Bob, are you running the camera?
G: Yeah. He's in the back seat...
L: Probably, yeah.
G: He and Tracy are in the back seat. So, anyway, we went down
the road to the same place... we set up the telescope and stuff
and Bob is screwing with the telescope, because the mountain and
the skies are starting to blend together, it's getting dark, and
I can't see shit.
Q: Now, are you just kind of standing there? Are you drinking
beer? Or...
G: I'm sure Jim was drinking beer.
L: Jim always drinks beer.
G: We were probably drinking soft drinks, or something. Not that
I'm opposed to beer, but I wouldn't have been drinking it then,
because I would have had to work the next morning. So then, Bob
is screwing around with the telescope and video camera... Jim's
looking through binoculars... no, he's screwing with the
telescope, Tracy's on the video camera... cause we know where to
look now... we had seen this thing before... but Jim hadn't...
Jim's looking with binoculars...
Q: It came up over the top of the mountain...
G: So we're looking around and, without looking exactly at it, a
small light passed above the mountains and I go, Bob, look at
that. And he goes... that's probably just a star. Period. That's
generally the place it pops up in the sky. It's not moving or
anything... so he goes back to the telescope... and so then I'm
just looking with binoculars, watching it... now Cereus jumps up
and jumps three or four, five miles to the west. And Jim says,
holy shit, did you see that? And I said, hey, Bob... and he said,
what, and I said, Cereus just jumped about three miles to the
west and he looked up and that was the night... it jumped up and
did the step moves all around and, even though all of this is in
hindsight now, it's still very hard to believe it happened, but
it did. It came so far up the mountain range toward us and glowed
so brightly, again we left the trunk of the Lincoln open, because
we got the telescope and everything out of there... and we
actually backed up to get behind the trunk. Now, as I reflect
back on that, it's hard to believe...
Q: It was just a light.
G: Right, but it glowed so brightly... I think your mind can only
take so much before it starts an explosion... in other words,
whatever your mind's eye is used to seeing, it's hard to
describe, when this thing came down the mountain range... it's
not as though it's a car on the highway or a train on the
railroad track approaching you and you say, yeah, it'll be here
in a few minutes, it'll be there and you'll say something to
somebody and turn around and it's a lot closer and you didn't see
it come and you might blink and it's a lot closer... I guess
that's by virtue of the way it travels... and it's alarming cause
you don't see it coming... you can't judge it... it's like
boom... boom... it's actually that fast... and, according to
Bob's information, the more highly energized it is, the more
brightly it glows... the more of a charge you're going to see
around the disc and so when it dropped down near to where we
were, it was glowing so brightly, it was like a small sun...
Q: Was it illuminating the car?
(PHONE RINGS. MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
Q: So you stepped back behind the car?
G: We stepped back behind the trunk and the thing glowed back
down...
Q: What did Jim say?
L: Oh, look, this is April 5th.
G: That's the final night when we got busted without seeing any
disc...
L: Okay, that's the car that she rented then.
G: That's the car she rented.
L: I had the two days blended together.
Q: What did Jim say when he saw the disc coming towards you?
G: Well, you can probably hear it if he finds...
L: No, this is the third night... Well, you can finish the second
night and when the third night comes up, we've got the tape.
G: What did Jim say... "holy shit!"
L: Right.
G: Jim's not a man of many words... he wouldn't say a big
soliloquy about it.
Q: No, Jim's got a clearance... Jim's worked...
L: No, he never did get his clearance...
Q: Ah...
L: But he was working on it...
G: Because he knew Bob Lazar.
L: Yeah.
Q: Okay.
G: But that was a thrilling night. That was the best night we
ever got.
Q: So the disc left.
G: The disc went back down the mountain range... did a few more
moves... sat there right above the mountain where it came up and
then very slowly just went right back down... the show's over...
Q: Five minutes, roughly... three minutes...
G: I don't know... I was thrilled and I wasn't... It was the
longest one I saw... it was minutes... it wasn't just a few
seconds.
Q: You drove back... what did anybody say in the car when you
drove back? Was it quiet, was it noisy?
G: It was noisy... although, it's a drive from hell on the way
home when it's dark, so it gets quiet cause everybody's falling
asleep. But I was thrilled. I think Jim and I were... we were in
the front seat... we had music on... I don't even know what Tracy
and Bob...
Q: Bob, did anybody tell you that you should tell more people
that night?
L: I don't remember. I actually remember very little about that
night. Other than just the major events.
G: Now, listen, he's not kicked out of the program yet... so,
everybody who knows him knows how ludicrous it would be... in
other words, you were thankful that Bob let you in... you would
never go... why don't we bring all of us inside... you were
thrilled to be... honored... to be in that group and nobody would
have suggested that... because his life and security clearance
and everything else were really on the line.
Q: So you drove back. That was the...
L: That was the 29th.
Q: What happens in the next few days before the next test flight.
Anything?
G: Well, Kris comes to town... that's one thing.
APRIL 4th, 1989
L: Kris comes to town on the 4th. Oh here it is...
APRIL 5th, 1989
L: "Bad day at Groom" is what's written on the 5th. So
that's the day we got caught. And here it is...
APRIL 6th, 1989
L: Debriefing on the 6th.
Q: That's Indian Springs. Let's take a look at that day at Groom.
[VIDEO TAPE OF THE 3RD VISIT TO GROOM LAKE BEGINS TO RUN IN THE
B.G. A BIT HARD AT TIMES TO DISTINGUISH INTERVIEW FROM THAT B.G.
DIALOGUE.]
Q: So who's in the car now?
L: This is Kris driving. There's John Lear. No, you didn't want
John to come.
G: We never wanted John to come. He was too big an asshole. He
acts like he's in charge. How this happened was... you know the
tests ran on a regular basis and Lear called and wanted to go up
to Groom and Bob goes, Nah, I don't think we're going to go
tonight... and blows him off and Lear says, well, I'm going out
there anyway and so Bob calls me and says...
L: Didn't he just show up in front of the house?
G: He might have called you from his cellphone... I remember that
you did call me and I go... well, I don't know... cause Lear and
I never got along terribly well... so Lear shows up within twenty
minutes...
[GENE AND BOB SPEAKING SIMULTANEOUSLY]
L: There's everyone there... that's Tracy there...
G: There's a car rented... and Lear doesn't even think for a
second that he wasn't invited he thinks that in twenty minutes we
ran out, rented a car, and got ready to go to Groom Lake.
L: Tracy's standing on the center line saying, here comes a car.
We're trying to decide on the best vantage point.
Q: It's a paved highway.
L: Yeah, this is the highway, we haven't taken the road down
there yet.
Q: What does his hat say?
L: Special Forces or something.
G: That's John Lear with a regular .35 mm camera... he's going to
take a picture of a light in the sky fifteen miles away.
Q: Let me ask Gene about that... we actually talked about that
quite at length. Gene, tell me from your perspective what
happened that night? About when you were caught.
G: Actually what happened was we were up there... you saw us
there... we were looking over the valley... now, what that didn't
show, was there all kinds of four-wheel drive vehicles sweeping
the road.
Q: Sweeping the dirt road.
G: These are dirt roads that ranchers can use to go in and get
their cattle, cause this is open range. But all the security
vehicles were sweeping these roads to make sure no one was on
them.
Q: Now, you knew they were security vehicles?
L: Right. We were waiting for them to disappear.
G: That's what we could see through those binoculars, although it
wasn't on any of the video. We could see what kind of vehicles
they were. Besides the ranchers drive old trucks with big
trailers on them.
Q: So you were waiting for them to leave.
G: Get done in the area and then once it started getting dark
with no lights on, we snuck... no, did you get out of the car
first?
L: No... that was the story... that was the story we had talked
about on the phone. If anyone asks, I got out at the... that was
the stop sign story...
G: We go down the road and we're going further and further and
we're deciding well, should we stop here, no... let's go in
further... no lights on or anything and eventually, I don't know
why, Kris hit the brakes...
L: No, we stopped by slamming into park... but we forgot that
when we opened the door the dome light goes on...
G: That's right... that's right. Yeah, because we were going to
try to sneak out and she hit the brakes on the way out. But
anyway, the dome light comes on so and I guess it's dark now...
L: Yeah, cause when the dome light came on...
G: The dome light comes on and Blazers and Broncos start coming
out from the security base out there all over the roads... and
you can see dust kicking up in the air and all these vehicles
running all over the place. And this is when you got out, isn't
it?
L: We actually drove up the road a bit and saw that they were
already up in front of us...
G: Right because they had gone up the other road and gone to the
highway and they're coming on the highway and there's no way we
can beat them to the highway... so we were going up the road and
we were going to try and sneak out... but Tracy had to hit the
brakes a few times... and then once... now they've got headlights
on... he gets out and takes the gun in case of rattlesnakes cause
he can't get caught with us. We go further up the road... oh,
that's it... now, he's out... he's going over and hiding in the
desert... we look up the road and the security vehicles behind us
stop, so we stop... cause they aren't going to chase us... we
aren't going to leave... and so then they start up again and we
start up again... and then we stop because they've got us in both
directions... interesting... the two guys that came in the
vehicle down from the road were two Indians... Indian looking
guys... I mean, thin, thirty, thirty-five years old and they were
Indians... which I found really strange... cause that's not
Indian reservation...
L: I never saw that.
Q: But they were in uniforms?
G: No, no... they were in plainclothes and they were in a
Blazer... I remember it was a Chevy and they were in a Blazer and
they were Indians and the only reason I thought they were in it
was because the guys who came up behind us were in uniforms and
the Indian guys pulled over and the main head guy, who was very
big, muscular guy and bald headed, went over and they spoke... we
were just up the way, but I couldn't hear what they said or
anything, but they knew each other... they were involved in
coming around the highway... I don't know... I don't know... and
then there were two vehicles behind us and then the head guy --
bald headed -- they had automatic weapons, but they saw that we
weren't any threat and they put the automatic weapons back in
their vehicles and the bald headed, big, muscular guy -- the head
security guy -- and then another guy, who was even bigger, like
they could have beat the shit out of us... they weren't worried
about having to use weapons on us... and he said, what are you
doing out here. Now genius Lear says, "What did we do, break
up a drug bust or something?" I don't know where that came
from, but these guys have machine guns... we're out here... and
so anyway... oh, when we stopped... we stopped and set up the
telescope again real fast... and we said, we're just watching the
stars... so the head guy radioed back and said, they say they're
out here watching the stars... and we didn't hear what the
response was, but I'm sure they said, get 'em out of there. And
so he hands us this sheet and says...
L: Oh, really... this is the first I heard of that.
G: Yeah, he hands us this sheet and says...
Q: What sheet?
G: It's a handout they give showing the Nevada revised statutes
regarding that military installation and, if you enter the
military installation, or you are out there with any...
binoculars... video equipment...
L: It's a crime actually to sketch the mountain range...
G: So, legally even if you take a picture of the outside of the
moutain, they can charge you a thousand dollar fine and put you
in jail for a year. So, he hands us a sheet of paper saying
that... and says, well, whether you know it or not, there's a
military installation on the other side of the mountain range...
we want you to get back up on the highway if you're just watching
stars... we don't know why you're in the middle of Nevada
watching stars anyway... cause the stars can be seen from a lot
of places... so Lear says something. I was quiet, cause I didn't
want... Lear says, well, this is (UNCLEAR) land, or something,
and they said, yeah, and we can't force you to get off here, but
we'd prefer that you get back up on the highway. So they got back
in their vehicles and just sat there, waiting for us... So
eventually, we went back up toward the highway and he had moved
up in the dark and was going up that way and so we weren't on the
highway, we were up by the highway and Bob came walking back
over, put the gun in the trunk, and we told him what had
happened...
L: Wait, you're leaving out a good part of the story... about me
and you joking around...
G: Right... that's what I'm getting to now... and then we started
joking about what if we had guys surrounding the guards... is
that what you're talking about?
L: Yeah.
Q: How did that happen?
L: Well, we didn't know they were right there...
G: Right. And we had pulled up by the highway and it's dark now
and we don't know they're there and we start goofing around
saying, wouldn't they have been surprised if, when they pulled up
and started out, we had people with guns surrounding them... and
blah, blah, blah, and we're standing there talking and, I don't
remember exactly, I know me and Tracy... did you see the green
light drop also...
L: Yeah.
G: Okay... me and Bob and Tracy are standing there talking and we
see a green light back down the road go... like that... and I
guess that's kind of what... those green scopes... well,
apparently, they had been watching us through that and dropped it
and we all saw the green light drop and realized these guys were
there, so they saw Bob come walking back over to the car and then
we left and went back up on the highway and made a left... went
towards Alie-Inn cause we were going to still stay out there...
and...
Q: The Alie-Inn was further down the road?
G: Right.
L: At that time it was the Rachel Bar and Grill.
Q: It was further away...
G: From Las Vegas... right. And we went down there and sat awhile
and...
L: What? I don't remember any of that... I thought we...
G: No, we went down there in the car... not too far... and we sat
on the highway for a few minutes and decided we weren't going to
see anything, whipped a U, and headed back toward Las Vegas, and,
as soon as we did, that's when (UNCLEAR) pulled us over...
L: Okay, I thought he was there when we got up to the road...
G: It's not like we were trying to memorize the situation... so
then the cop pulled us over... Kris is driving. He gets out and
tells us... he's not in a very good mood, and he tells us he's
got a problem... and the problem is that when the security pulled
this vehicle over there were four people in it and now he pulls
us over and there are five. Can anybody explain that to him? You
got any weapons in this car? No remember... the guards probably
saw him put that gun in the trunk... got any weapons in this car?
Bob says no... So then Kris is the one who rented this car and he
starts asking her... will you give me permission to search this
vehicle... and we couldn't even look at her and give her a signal
or anything, but she was very strong and obstinate and she just
said, no, she would not let them...
L: Well, she was going to legal school at the time and was really
up on it...
G: She wouldn't let him search the car... so he wanted ID's from
all of us and it was Lear, wasn't it?
L: Oh, yeah.
G: So he frisks us... because I had a little bit of bronchial
asthma... I didn't hear him... so he frisked us and asked for ID
from everybody... and I didn't have any ID cause I wasn't
driving... so I gave him my social security number and stuff and
Lear, instead of saying, I didn't bring my ID, just like I did
before him... says my ID's in the trunk. So he gets the keys and
opens up the trunk and there's a movie camera and a telescope and
binoculars, a Gieger counter, everything you're not suppose to
have is there in the trunk and the Sheriff's looking at this. And
then Lear gives him his ID and so he goes back to the cop car and
we know this, I guess in hindsight, but then... we didn't know
that the Sheriff was in with the security people and he radios
all of our names and social security numbers and he comes back
and says... look, I've detained you fifty-five minutes now, I can
only detain you one hour without taking you in... according to
law... so I'm going to let you go, but you're out here outside
this military installation with all this stuff inside your trunk
playing hide and go seek with the guards and stuff and saying
you're not up to anything, I suggest you get out of here and
don't let me catch you around here anymore... so that was it...
and we can only...
L: Well, don't forget... you did leave out a couple points... one
was... that had nothing to do with anything, was right before he
said I've detained you for so long and I'm going to let you go, I
was trying to interrupt him talking to that other cop to tell him
we did have a gun in the car...
G: Oh, that's right... you were going to confess. Yeah, cause we
were getting scared... we did have a gun in the car...
L: Well, they were going to tow the car... and the tow truck came
out...
G: Right... and so Bob was going to confess, but he let us go and
so then, after we got in the car, and talked about what a big
dickhead the Sheriff was... you know, typical talk about the
Sheriff and I remember on the way home, Bob wouldn't back me up,
I remember Kris, his sister-in-law... now it seems obvious that
we must have been let go because Bob was with us and they didn't
know what Bob told us or anything... because there's no reason
they should have let some people who were out there on a
Wednesday night with all this illegal equipment, taking movies...
just let us go and not taken our car and searched it... and so I
was in an argument with Kris, cause she thought that Bob being
with us had nothing to do with it... we were just lucky and they
let us go. And I said, you mean you think we were out there with
all this stuff and we were just let go... so, that's all I
remember on the way home, cause Bob wouldn't take my side in the
argument. So, anyway, then I remember silence. Everybody was
beat.
Q: Next day... Indian Springs.
APRIL 6th, 1989
L: Indian Springs.
Q: We went down to EG&G and picked up Dennis.
L: Right and then we drove to Indian Springs in my car.
Q: When you drove into Indian Springs, did you comment that, I
thought this base was closed up... it's all boarded up, right?
L: I really had never been up to Indian Springs before that. It's
not boarded up... it's there, but just deserted.
G: It's just a little, rural base and the Thunderbirds land out
there once in awhile, don't they? It's just a little base
designed to watch the perimeter of the bombing range...
L: But it's a big area...
G: But its' nothing.
L: It's not like multitudes of buildings or anything.
G: Right... you go by it on the highway... it's not even that far
to drive out and look at it if you'd like to see it.
Q: But the gate actually has a guard there?
L: Yeah. And it says, "Auxiliary Air Force Base", or
something.
G: And isn't their water tank painted with red and white
checkers?
Q: When you went onto the base, did the guards stop you and ask
for someone's ID or did you just go right through the gate?
L: No, he stopped us and Dennis said something and the guy
checked a list and we went in. So that was all the priliminary
stuff... Dennis knew right where to go. He told me to go up to
this building... we walked inside and it was a small office
with... I don't know how many guys were there... I know
eventually the guards came down... but I think it was me and
Dennis riding up in the car... the guy that was there and someone
else.
Q: People you'd never seen before?
L: Right. People I'd never seen before.
Q: Ever saw them again?
L: No... definitely never saw them again. I might have seen them
before... I don't think so.
Q: Came back from Indian Springs -- did you say anything to Gene
when you came back?
L: I know I told him about what had happened.
G: Yeah, the next day... not that night. You went out there... I
didn't know anything about that until the next day.
Q: What did Bob say?
G: How happy they were... that when he was driving out with
Dennis... that he asked him what we were going out there for and
Dennis turned to him and said, you know, Bob, you weren't
supposed to bring all your friends out there to watch the discs
fly. And that was kind of it. He said it was a solemn drive.
L: It was just quiet.
G: And he said that they put guns to his head and debriefed
him... the one guy had a blue windbreaker on that said
"FBI" on the back... right?
L: No, I don't remember that.
G: I'm pretty sure that's what you said, because that was the
first... because you said you didn't even know if he was
"FBI", but that he had a blue windbreaker on that said
that. They put guns to his head, hollered at him, screamed at
him, and that's the night when they showed you the transcript of
Tracy and her boyfriend talking on the phone...
L: Right.
Q: Now when you say, that's the night... you were up there during
the night also.
L: Whatever... it was late... it was a late... we left late
and... I got back and it was dark, so...
G: When you left EG&G it was already like four or something
and so you thought you were flying out... and you and Dennis had
to go on a sixty or seventy-five mile drive... and it was winter,
so it was dark the whole time, right?
Q: When you saw the transcripts, that was a complete surprise to
you? Or was it?
L: Yeah.
Q: Bob say anything about the transcripts that he saw.
L: I must have, if I told you about everything else.
G: Yeah, right... he... well, you already knew about Tracy,
right? You did before you went...
L: No, that was the first I heard...
G: Oh, that's it... see, I don't want to (UNCLEAR) here, as I
remember, now just correct me if I'm wrong, I could be wrong, but
I thought the reason they decided to show them to you... and tell
you that, was because Tracy called her mom in Minnesota and told
her mom she had an affair...
L: No, that's when I came back and told Tracy they told me... and
so purposely made the call...
G: Oh, okay... all right...
L: I was trying to show them an end to... to show them that
everyone knew what was going on and it's over... I was trying to
display an end... I even think her mom knew about it... I'm not
sure about that... but she purposely made a phone call to her mom
in Minnesota, telling her I told Bob about how everything
happened, he knows about everything, and so on and so forth... I
don't remember how that ended or...
G: And you had her do that to what... show them there wasn't any
emotional instability, or what?
L: Beats the hell out of me... I remember doing that... but I
can't...
G: I remember talking to him about this subject... cause he was
(UNCLEAR) mad right now... so I wasn't going... well, what did he
say? And what did she say? I mean, he wasn't in the mood for
that.
L: See now the story doesn't fit together right... something...
I'm getting something wrong... I remember, I made Tracy make that
phone call to tell her Mom cause I knew they were listening and,
for some reason, I was... okay, well go ahead...
G: I don't know... that was your and Tracy's personal life, the
way I remembered... and it could be wrong... you were the one
that was there... again, I wasn't jumping in to their personal
business, cause this was a touchy situation at this point and
time... I didn't know... all I knew was Tracy, maybe at your
request, called her Mom and told her Mom that she had had an
affair and that she told you... I thought after that is when you
went to Indian Springs... because now the guys who were listening
on your phone knew that you knew... because they had had
transcripts of her and her boyfriend for a long time and they
weren't going to break the news to Bob... I thought, once they
heard her confess to her Mom that you knew, know they knew you
knew and stuck it in your eye and said, ha, ha we've known and
this is why we're yanking your clearance...
L: Why wouldn't I remember this? This is a significant point.
G: Well, what else makes sense though...
L: Well, it's easy to find out, because...
Q: Let me ask you, one of the salient points here is at Indian
Springs was it definitive that you were not going to get your
clearance?
L: No, I still wasn't sure...
Q: Good.
L: No, I actually thought that I was still coming back, because
they really never did do anything... and, in fact, later on down
the road, they asked me to come back... I refused then, but... no
one said, that's it... we want nothing to do with you anymore...
or anything along those lines. At one point, they said...
emotional instability and something about six months... you
remember anything about that... reapply in six months?
G: Yeah, but they said they were going to yank your clearance,
because you were a sure candidate for emotional instability...
you can reapply in six to nine months... Now, I was under the
impression, all this shit went down the same night as Indian
Springs... but I could be wrong.
L: No, that's why I'm questioning... was that on Indian Springs
night?
G: I thought on Indian Springs night... cause you never went back
again... they called you back, but you thought it was because
they wanted to put you in jail or kill you... not because of work
and that's why you refused to go back...
L: Right...
G: So if you refused to go back... that means you never talked to
these people ever again other than Dennis on the phone or... that
means it had to have happened that night...
L: See, they had to have told me first because, here's the
debriefing on the 6th... on the...
APRIL 10th, 1989
L: is "life equals zero".
G: That's when you knew Tracy had an affair...
L: Right... so that is the way.
G: So they were the ones that told you about Tracy's affair?
(START OF TAPE SEVEN -- SIDE A)
(PHONE RINGS)
Q: Bob, help me with this... why is "life equals
zero"...
L: I think that's because when Tracy told me about everything
about the affair...
Q: But you saw the transcripts on the 6th... so you knew about
it?
L: Right.
G: See... Bob's a very live and let live guy... so Bob... now
keep in mind, he's been involved in the most important scientific
program in the world, he's been busy... he's been neglecting
Tracy... he doesn't even tell her what he's doing... and stuff
like this... so Bob was willing to try and work it out. See a
counselor... forgive and forget. I think by the time it was
"life equals zero" , you just thought she had had a
sexual fling... she told you she actually had some feelings for
Chris and that's when you said... that's what hurt you. You
didn't care that she had sex on the side...
L: Right...
G: You bottomed out when you found out...
(PHONE RINGS)
G: See I don't like talking about this in front of Bob...
L: I don't like hearing about it either.
(MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
Q: Okay, "Life equals zero" April 10th... where do we
go from there? This is great, by the way, we're...
L: You know, I even had a feeling that what I read was not
true...
Q: On the 6th...
L: But the hell with that... it doesn't matter... 'cause after
the 10th nothing really mattered.
Q: Did you show her this when you came home? Did you show her the
transcript?
L: I... it's a blur... I really don't remember.
G: You didn't get the transcript, did you?
L: No... they didn't give me it. They never gave me any
transcripts.
APRIL 12, 1989
L: Oh, counselor... Dr. John... two days after.
Q: Who made the call to Dr. John?
L: Tracy. And then a trip to Los Alamos. See I'm in a bad mood
already...
G: I didn't want to...
Q: Bob, this is important...
L: Yeah, I know...
G: It's like... here's the worst day of your life now... what
happened...
L: Exactly what happened next? Okay, here's his last name...
LaClose?
G: Did you tell him what happened with Dr. John?
L: Yes... that he fired us.
Q: Can you walk through how you phrased that to him?
L: Ahh...
Q: I mean, how did it come up in the conversation?
L: Well, cause he's trying to lay out... well, what's all the
stress you guys keep talking about? And I said, well, we have a
lot of external stress and other things influencing our life...
he said, well, I can't iron things out... now this is over
several visits... he said, I really can't iron things out... why
don't we lay everything out on the table... and then Tracy and I
now are playing off of each other and we're laughing... saying...
we keep beating around the bush and we finally say... okay, this
is it. And we lay everything out... and I remember him sitting
there with a pencil in his mouth and he keeps taking it out and
tapping it and then he goes over a recap of what we've just told
him and it sounds...
Q: Step through the recap...
L: He said... and it sounds just as ridiculous to us... so, you
were working on alien flying saucers for the government...
G: It sounds funny now, too...
L: And I can't remember how it was stated... and now that you're
not working there... they might be after you to kill you or your
wife because you went and showed your friends and your phone is
tapped... everything you do is being monitored... so on and so
forth... and at the end... we said, yeah, that's about it... and
he just told us... look, I don't think I'm going to be able to
see you guys anymore... so... that's it and we left and...
G: They got fired...
L: Right. And then we had a great laugh coming back. That was...
if anything that actually did help, because we talked about that
for days. Okay, that was here, so we went the first time to the
counselor... everything happened on the 10th... the 12th we went
to the counselor... then we went again on the 18th and the 25th
is when we got fired.
Q: What's the next date, Bob?
L: Well... Tracy and I are still living together... and still
working together... so... she goes to Los Alamos and I'm here...
huh? Well... Dr. John at 6 p.m.... maybe that was the last day.
JUNE 1, 1989
L: So... that, I guess, is the last day. But this is a surprising
entry on June 1st... it says... told Trac secret... what secret
could that possibly be? Obviously, she knew about all the flying
saucer stuff. What was left that I could probably... is it
something that's going to depress me?
G: Nothing I'm going to tell you. I don't know what that would
be... but didn't you go on TV in silhouette in May... didn't they
start chasing you...
L: Oh, oh, oh... maybe that's it. Yeah, cause we were caught...
G: April 5th... debriefed April 6th and I think you were on TV in
May in silhouette that was when you were trying to get them to
leave you alone so you came forward.
Q: What happened in that period, as best you recall, when Bob
was... felt like he was in danger? Did you feel like you were in
danger, also?
G: Yeah... I was a little paranoid because once he told me about
the transcript of Tracy on the phone, I knew for sure his phone
was tapped and, by that time, we had relaxed somewhat and talked
about stuff on the phone... where if someone really was
listening, they knew I knew... and they knew Jim knew... and they
even would know I had called other people and told them... but I
always felt they were after him... I mean, I was paranoid...
although some of it was being paranoid for him more so than me...
although I always thought... actually I remember me and you and
Tracy talking about staying quiet about it... certainly more for
him... I'm just saying that I can remember the three of us
talking about... that even Tracy and I felt that like we were
carrying a weight... because now we knew... he had taken us
out... shown us the disc... we believed him... we knew there had
been life here from another source and the rest of the entire
world, including people older than us... younger than us...
everybody didn't know... and it was almost like a burden... I
don't know if he can relate to that or not... but it was... I
don't know how to describe it... but it was like carrying a heavy
weight because then I was really... and even Tracy... started to
read everything we could... we had viewed all those tapes from
Lear and I was reading stuff... the library had a good selection
of stuff here... books written in the decade prior to that...
tried to see if anybody knew anything that paralleled what Bob
had seen... so we really became students of Ufology, as they call
it... to see if anybody knew anything... and paranoid... I
remember one time... then the strange things started happening...
I remember he went to work out at the gym with Shelley and Mario
and came out and his car had been broken into to and the one time
the doors... he had his Uzi and his wallet in there and the doors
were standing open and he came back to the car and no one had
stolen the Uzi or the wallet, which means whoever broke in and
opened the doors left them open to say... ha, ha we were here...
then with Mario a similar thing happened, didn't it? Didn't you
go work out with Mario...
L: Right... you kind of have the story wierd... that happened
with Mario, twice, and with Shelley I went to work out with her
and her car was in the driveway... when we came back to the
house, her car was open... all the seats were back... everything
was gone through, but nothing was taken.
G: And then another time... now we were paranoid, so he had his
Uzi and he loaned me a .44 Magnum 'cause I didn't even own a
handgun... I'm not a hunter or killer or anything like that... I
own a gun now... so I borrowed his .44 Magnum and so he was being
followed by unknown cars. It wasn't general paranoia because he
doesn't do drugs or anything against the law generally speaking,
you know... so I remember one day I was in my office, I've got
the .44 Magnum in there and he comes walking in...
L: Oh, yeah...
G: And ah... he goes... give me the gun and I picked it up and I
gave it to him and he doesn't say anything, just walks back out
and then he goes chasing somebody, somebody had been following
him down Charleston towards my office and he stopped at my office
and got a gun and then wanted to go chase the car that had been
following him, but I guess they lost you or something. Now he
didn't know if this was the government or who it was, but
somebody was following him...
Q: This was roughly what time period? Roughly.
G: Must have been in April, huh?
Q: And this is before you went on TV?
L: This is after April 7th...
G: It was before you went on TV though?
L: Yeah.
Q: And before the time that someone took a shot at you?
L: Right. Right.
JUNE 20, 1989
L: And just to update us, right here... it says "Dr. John
drops us" on the 20th of June... so, I guess there were a
lot more visits than I had imagined to him... but that's when
that event actually does happen.
G: Also, even though it's not any place on the calendar, before
Tracy moved out, he got his paycheck... now remember he was on
call and so he might work one week... you know, five working
days... over the course of a month or a month and a half...
depending what time frame he was in... he got his paycheck... and
he was going to skim the paycheck and not tell Tracy, because he
had some electronic equipment he wanted to buy... so he got his
paycheck and he showed me... and it was like nine hundred and
fifty or nine hundred and seventy bucks... because I presumed a
senior staff physicist would make more than that... wouldn't you?
You know, you've got to go to school a long time... do a lot of
things... and this guy isn't even making a grand a week as a
senior staff physicist and I remember being curious about that
and so that is when he received his paycheck and it was in one of
those envelopes like... remember now... this wasn't critical
because nobody knew he was going to get kicked out of the
program... he thought there'd be many more paychecks... so it's
not like I said, please, let me see the envelope and memorize
it... but if I remember right, wasn't it like one of those brown
Department of Treasury type envelopes?
L: It was a big check... I remember that... I don't remember what
the...
G: (UNCLEAR)... the golf tournament...
L: Yeah...
G: But he did get a paycheck during that time... I mean, I didn't
really look at it... all I remember is musing about the amount,
cause I thought he'd be making more money.
Q: What did you think when he was shot at?
G: I thought it was big trouble... naturally... he had left my
office and, in the mean time, I had left my office... I got home
and there was this message on my answering machine in this real
neurotic... nervous... scared voice...
Q: He was on his way over to John Lear's?
G: I don't know... why would you be going to John Lear's?
L: To do the interview with George? To do the satellite link-up
with George.
G: Yeah, but I met you up... we went over to Lear's together...
because, well, Tracy was at Lear's. Me and Tracy sat outside the
van...
L: Oh, really?
G: We just used Lear's parking lot... was Lear even there?
L: This is such a blur to me...
G: Lear's got like a commercial parking lot in front of his
house... I recall Marilee (sp?) being there... I don't recall
John being there. Because here's the thing, Tracy, as you saw, is
a very attractive young woman and she was trying to get into some
modeling... she's too short... too much of a Munchkin to be a
classic model... but certainly a great looking face... and
Marilee Lear... she's a casting agent for bit parts is what she
does now... for Lear Casting for movies that are shot here in
Nevada... then, or she probably still does, she helped people get
into modeling... she was like an agent... wasn't she?
L: Right...
G: So she... Tracy was using Marilee to try and get some
photographic modeling jobs... for face shots and stuff like
that... and I don't even recall John being there... but I do
remember Jan Jones was there... who's now the mayor of Las
Vegas... Jan Jones was there because...
L: She was going to buy their horse...
G: She was into horses and Marilee was showing Jan Jones a horse
and Frank was the camera man in that van... I don't even recall
John being there. And Frank and you were in the van and Tracy and
I stood outside of the van while you did the silhouette thing...
L: That's right...
G: So somehow... however that went down... you and Tracy and I
ended up back here together and went to Lear's parking lot
together. Because it had to be a remote place, you know.
Q: Take me back a day or two before that... to the shooting
incident.
G: I mean, I don't recall much about it, other than he was
getting on the highway...
Q: Was it the same day as...
JUNE 21, 1989
L: I believe that was on June 21st.
G: It wasn't the same day... was it? Did you get shot and
interviewed the same day?
Q: You went to the hotel after you were shot.
L: Yeah, I think... didn't I? Didn't that happen the same day?
G: I don't remember.
L: It was only four years ago...
G: Five years ago now...
Q: There was a message on your machine...
G: With him saying that they had shot his tire out and then you
did disappear for a while... did you go to a hotel then, is that
what happened?
L: Yeah.
G: Well, then I don't think you went on TV the same day your tire
was shot out... cause somehow you and Tracy and I got together
and went to Lear's parking lot.
L: Where was I going then?
G: When... what do you mean when?
L: When I got shot...
G: You were probably coming from my office and heading back on...
L: I know... but that is not the normal trip back... there was
something specific that was happening just that day.
G: Right... cause you got on going north.
L: Right.
G: But that wouldn't have been to Lear's house... from my office
to Lear's house you would have gone east.
L: That's right.
G: And you had to meet up with me and Tracy somewhere. So I don't
know where you were going. You're right... you wouldn't normally
get on 15 north... because you'd be begging for a traffic jam...
L: Unless I was going to meet you guys back here?
G: That might have been it.
L: 'Cause that's the way I would've gone.
G: Because the tire was shattered... there were no slugs or
anything... I mean, later, right about that time was when we
learned about (UNCLEAR) safety slugs... remember?
L: Right.
G: But again, I remember as a third party, but things were still
a little wierd with him and Tracy. Cause even now I know she had
an affair and they're going to a counselor and so I wasn't trying
to dig into their personal lives... I was just trying to be a
friend on the light side of things... and I was also trying to
learn and have Bob tell me more UFO stuff...
Q: But he was shot at...
G: Right.
Q: Did you tell him to go to the police?
G: No, I didn't.
L: I don't think anyone did... I think the only person that did
was...
G: Because if there wasn't a slug in the tire or anything, you
could never convince the cops... that's not a normal thing... you
could never convince the cops you didn't have a blow out... then
what are you going to tell them? Well, would anyone have an
occasion to shoot at you? Yeah. Who? Well, you see I worked on
flying saucers and secret agents are chasing me... so it was
literally that more than...
Q: So, shortly after that you went on TV.
L: Yeah, whatever date that was.
G: Now, backing up a bit... did you tell him about the time you
and Dennis went to the police station?
Q: Nope, haven't heard about that.
L: No.
Q: Time frame for that incident is...?
L: Oh, boy...
G: Well, you said the police... I presume you're wondering could
there be a record of any of this stuff. And he did go to the
police station with Dennis Marrianni (sp?) one time.
L: That's when I was still going there... so we're talking a time
frame... this is back, right after the Russians left.
G: That's not on there... cause when I did the whole thing on the
calendars... once I wrote out every UFO related event or peculiar
looking notes that would mean nothing to anyone but Bob... and I
don't think you ever did mark that down.
L: Oh... what's here... called about guns? Called about guns. It
is on here.
G: Holy cow.
L: January 23rd.
G: All right.
L: And go to work is the next day.
Q: And what happened on the 23rd of January?
L: Well, supposedly, what I was told was after the incident with
the Russians, when we made some sort of discovery and kicked them
out of the program, they weren't very happy about it... now, this
is all just what I was being told...
Q: By Dennis?
L: Right. And I was told shortly after that, probably on that
day, that one of the twenty-two that worked on the project up
there was now missing. And what they were doing was issuing
sidearms to all the people that were working up there... I was to
get a gun. And it was... I'm trying to remember how they said
it... it was just something I could carry from the airport and
home and it could never go on the plane, it always had to stay at
the EG&G building and come home with me. The following day
was on the 24th is when I went to work and I think that's when
they gave me... I don't know what they gave me... they gave me a
little gun and I said, well, I have a gun... ahh... no, they gave
me a gun and they said if I lost it...
G: Five hundred dollars deposit...
L: Right...
G: And you said, this gun doesn't cost five hundred dollars.
L: Right.
G: Why would I pay five hundred dollars if I lose it? This lady
was arguing with you.
L: Right. And I said, I have a gun can I just carry that? And
forget about this thing... so, that was agreed upon and they said
as long as the thing's registered... well, I never register
anything... so I had to go down and get the gun registered and
with a permit to carry.
G: Yeah, cause your guns were from New Mexico... when he worked
at Los Alamos and he never registered them in the state of
Nevada.
L: Right... so I went with Dennis to the police station and the
sub-station down on Eastern...
G: Well... what date was that just for the records?
L: Because... coincidentally we have one of the cops tracing down
the paper work now...
G: January 28th? Is that when it was...
L: It's the 24th, 25th...
G: It was the day before your birthday.
L: Right.
G: The 25th... so the guy we know who is the... he's now an
investigator for the District Attorney's Office... I don't know
why we never saw it on the calendar, but anyway, we couldn't
remember what date that was... so I gave him the serial number
off Bob's .44 Magnum and he traced back the date to see when it
was registered because we wanted to see if there was any evidence
that Dennis Marrianni had to flip any ID at the police station.
Cause it's pretty important trying to find out what you can about
that guy. So, anyway, he found out that it was the South
Sub-station over on St. Louis Avenue and he went over there to
dig around, but a Lieutenant caught him over there and asked him
what he was doing and stuff and he can't... he's three years
in... so he doesn't want to get caught looking at the UFO guy's
records. And, but anyway, so he's trying to dig up what he can on
Dennis Marrianni. Also, when you went over there, remember Dennis
went in to speak with the Desk Sergeant, or whatever, for a few
minutes and Bob's sitting out in the hall and Bob tells me that
the Sergeant comes out... some big, fat Sergeant and says,
"So this is the kid the Russians are after."
L: Right. So he had told him...
G: Like somebody as important as me... he's looking at Bob, not
knowing that this kid is working on craft from another star
system... like he's big Mr. Policeman and why would the Russians
want this kid and made a copy on the copy machine... isn't that
so?
L: Right... that's exactly right.
Q: So you had the gun...
G: Anyway, in the state of Nevada, your car's an extension of
your house, so you don't need a permit to carry a gun in your
car. So he didn't need to get a permit to carry a gun.
L: Right. Just as long as it stayed in the car.
Q: What did Bob say about Dennis? Or did he ever talk about
Dennis?
G: Well, later on, I saw Dennis.
L: Oh, in the hotel.
G: Yeah, right. But he said that he was a very...
Q: Tell me about that incident.
G: These are all such long stories...
Q: No... this is great.
G: Well, I guess this must have come after you went on in
silhouette, didn't it?
L: This was even after...
G: Cause he already called and said...
L: I don't know if I'm right... I think it was after George's big
expose... UFO...
G: Well, that was in November of '89...
L: Okay, then it wasn't. It was definitely after I was on.
G: Yeah, he was on in silhouette and Dennis was trying to get
hold of him and Joe was in town for the weekend from Los Alamos
and Dennis was trying to set up this meeting with Bob and Joe and
I are here... so we think Dennis is going to be coming over
here... so we're setting up all this stuff to bug the place.
Remember... so Joe and I can sit outside...
L: Right outside in your cars...
G: And try and hear what is going on... so Dennis calls and we're
here and Bob's talking and Bob can hear all kinds of
reverberation and everything and says, look, Dennis, this phone
sounds funny... what's going on here? Dennis wants to meet on a
personal level... he just wants to talk to him... not in any
official capacity. Dennis says, how about the Sahara Hotel... Bob
says no... cause he was going to say no to whatever place Dennis
said... and however they did it, they settled on the Union
Plaza...
L: I said how about something on my side of town.
G: They settled on the Union Plaza downtown and we took that old
Toyota I had... me and Joe and Bob... and we had this plan... and
Bob went in before us... then Joe and I come walking in about a
minute later. And Joe and I sit down and order something to drink
and start playing the slot machines... which we never do. But
we're going through slot machines, looking conspicuous, we don't
know where Bob is... and he comes walking back to the casino area
and goes... I don't see Dennis anywhere... and I go... well, why
don't you page him on the phone. He goes over and pages Dennis on
the phone next to the bar. Dennis never answered... you can hear
the operator page Dennis Marrianni... no answer... Bob comes
back. So then Bob leaves again, and this place is packed, so we
don't see Bob. Joe and I are sitting together... well, Bob comes
back next time with this strange look on his face and says... I
just saw Dennis and he walked right past me and didn't
acknowledge that it was me. I know he saw me and he wouldn't say
anything... so he said, hey, Dennis, or something like that...
didn't you? And Dennis walks past like he didn't know him. And
Bob also said that he thought he saw another security guy...
L: Before I saw Dennis...
G: Oh, okay... he saw another guy in there before... so then Bob
comes back over and doesn't know what's going on. So Joe stays
there to guard that exit and Bob takes me to the casino... cause
now Dennis has gone and sat at a blackjack table. So we go
stealthily in behind the silver slot machine and he shows me
Dennis... There's Dennis, just like he'd always described him...
medium build... military trim haircut... neatly trimmed blond
mustache... blond hair in shape. But something's wierd because
then Dennis, he's smoking a cigar, also, Dennis had two gorgeous
babes on either side of him playing blackjack... wasn't this like
on a weekend night? A Friday or Saturday?
L: Yeah.
G: And so the place is packed... everybody's drinking... Dennis,
playing blackjack, looking at his cards, he's not even looking at
the gorgeous babes flagging him... he's not even looking at the
dealer, I mean this guy's exhibiting unusual behavior for a guy
playing blackjack... like he's paranoid about something. So I
stay there and Bob... isn't this when you walked up to him at the
blackjack table?
L: Right.
G: And says, Dennis, what the fuck is this? What's going on? You
wanted to meet out here... now, let's talk. Dennis again doesn't
acknowledge his existence and he comes walking back over and now
Bob walks around the blackjack table, down this other bar, just
on the other side, and I'm watching Dennis from behind. Now
Dennis is facing like I am... Bob walking there... and I'm back
over there behind Dennis... and now Dennis, after not looking up,
not looking at the dealer, not looking at the beautiful women
flagging him, now, the only thing Dennis has looked at is he
follows Bob as Bob walks down... and I see that... which shows me
that Dennis knows who Bob is... and then, Bob walks all the way
back around and comes behind the slot machines. We're hiding and
we're formulating a plan and we look back out and now Dennis is
gone.
L: It was truly like a "Twlight Zone" episode...
G: He dematerialized. And we looked towards all the exits and the
johns and we hurry and run, trying to go toward any exits because
the plan was... let's at least get this guy's license plate. You
know, what I mean, let's follow him to the parking lot and find
out the plate on the car he's driving. We couldn't find him
anywhere in the casino... he wasn't by any exits... finally we
just walked back to where Joe was and told him what happened and
we just left. And I guess you never heard from him again?
L: No, that was it. It was almost like something big was going to
happen and it all diffused in front of our eyes.
G: He saw the guy from S4... there is the possibility that Dennis
was trying to meet him on a personal level... to go... hey, man,
this is what's going to happen... but see Dennis would have to
have known that his phone was tapped. I just don't know how that
story exactly went... could Dennis have not known the other S4
guy was there? And the other S4 guy was watching Dennis trying to
get together with Bob? I don't think anybody's got the solution
to that.
Q: It would make sense to me that Dennis arranged to meet so that
Dennis might point Bob out to someone else.
G: Oh, I see. Oohh, that's spooky, I never thought of that angle.
L: Well, whatever the initial intention was... that's how
everything happened.
Q: What other dates do we have that we haven't hit yet?
L: We kind of left off at... "Told Tracy the secret"...
who knows what that was.
Q: We're in July, now?
L: No, June... June... seems like the shooting incident took
place on the 21st.
Q: 21st of June was the shooting incident?
L: That's what it seems like. Right now.
G: But that would have been after you were on in silhouette.
L: The only reason I say that is because it says 280 Z dies. I
dont know...
G: Yeah, but I don't know if... cause remember you and Tracy were
without vehicles and all mine were broken, too, and I borrowed
Reg and Sherry, my friends, van and we were using it for photo
deliveries and everything. And Tracy was still here cause she
took it on deliveries. Of course that doesn't confirm anything
about chronological order... it's just that George says that you
were on in silhouette in May... in fact I've got the tapes of
that newscast, but it doesn't say the date on it.
L: Okay... it's certainly possible.
JULY 1, 1989
L: "Desert Blast" is on July 1st...
G: But it's pretty important whether or not you got shot at
before or after you went on in silhouette.
L: Yeah, I'm positive I got shot at before. I know I got shot at
before.
G: Because this was like a warning not to do it.
L: Right, I'm positive it was before... I just don't know the
dates.
G: Oh, I thought... I don't know...
Q: Now, you were encouraging Bob to do this... or was John
Lear...
G: To do what?
Q: To go on TV. Who was telling Bob to...
L: He did... I mean, you did, didn't you?
G: Well, I mean at this point I wasn't really encouraging him to
do anything, because I thought they might kill him. I do
remember... after... you're right... you got shot at before you
went on...
L: I know it...
G: You did... because that was a determining factor. You know
what I mean... that's when you said, hey, fuck it! Cause I
remember when George called and asked if you'd go on and you said
yeah and I said... you're shitting? I mean, this guy was going to
go on TV and I thought, what a ballsy move.
Q: Now help me here with something? When George called... who did
John Lear tell George Knapp...
L: John Lear I think was the first contact to George.
G: Yeah.
Q: So John told George... call Bob Lazar.
L: I don't know how he got in touch with me? I know it started
out...
G: See now that Lear knew... Lear was starting to blab... the
tape of when we were out there with Lear was the joy of Lear's
life, at this point in time. So, yeah, Lear was trying to
(UNCLEAR), cause Lear wanted everybody to go... ah ah... John
Lear... I said it... I showed you... I changed the world. So he
was the conduit to George Knapp. I don't know how it happened,
but George Knapp called and out of the blue Bob said yes that he
would go on television and I couldn't believe it. Which was
really exciting because now we knew they're been life here from
somewhere else and the hardware and everything... and this was a
thrill because now Bob was going to go on the news and tell
everybody. So it was thrilling...
Q: And he interrupted the evening news with this.
G: Well, it was a live... George hosted the "Live at
Five"...
L: It was like a satellite...
G: I just recently got the whole tape dubbed from George on VHS
if you'd like to see it.
Q: Course I would.
G: Of Bob in the van... not his story on TV... I actually got him
in the van before the...
Q: I think I have a copy of that... I think I do.
G: I don't think you have a copy of this... but you've got a copy
of that (UNCLEAR)... or you might have a copy of the broadcast. I
mean, I got George's tape that wasn't ever aired... the tape
taken inside the van...
Q: Oh, I'd love to see that.
L: We started shooting practice...
G: Did we?
L: Shortly thereafter, yeah.
Q: You went to a range to shoot?
L: Yeah... everything happens at the drylake bed.
G: Because I could shoot the UZI really well and I couldn't hit
the broadside of a barn with the .44 Magnum, which was the gun I
had.
Q: Now, after you went public, Gene what did you feel like? After
Bob went public.
G: I was excited... I thought it was the coolest thing that ever
happened. I thought that...
L: I want to see if I can find the calendar after this...
G: I wondered where it would go from there... now see he did it,
and although all the UFO fans think Bob did them a big favor to
prove the government cover-up... he really did do it for selfish
reasons... because he doesn't care... sincerely does not care
about UFO nuts... people... he did nothing for them... even
though it kind of looked like that, he did it for him to kind of
force their hand and, also, around the time, for safe keeping,
George Knapp and Brian Franklin (?), the cameraman, came here and
did a video tape... which we now call the Bob Chronicles, which
was just for safe keeping... not for anything, just in case they
were going to get Bob because he went on in silhouette... we now
had a tape with Bob saying everything on camera... and this is
when George Knapp's boss gave him permission to go ahead and do
the UFO special, which George ended up winning the UPI Individual
Achievement Award for for 1990... but George did that UFO special
and Bob still, a month before the broadcast, did not give George
permission to use anything of him in there... because Bob did not
do it to become a UFO star... he did it to protect himself. Do
you remember what made you decide to go on that George UFO
clip?... Anyway, I remember...
L: Do you remember the fight in the editing room with George's
boss?
G: I remember George coming here and Bob going... how's the UFO
Special going? And George is drinking beer, cause George can
drink beers like shots and not get drunk, you know what I mean,
there are people just like that... George goes... without you
I've got no UFO Special. And finally Bob broke down and said,
okay... I don't know what caused him to do that... cause this is
one where he goes... this is Bob Lazar... so then George got to
edit in all this Bob Lazar... so how he did it was it was Sweeps
Week and so the first four nights, and this was excellent, you
saw "UFO's The Best Evidence", didn't you?...
Q: Umm hmm...
G: Okay... the nightly news clips were even better... they edited
that into a two hour "UFO'S The Best Evidence" to be
shown as a package... as a presentation, but that was just a
compilation of nightly segments over the course of like eight or
nine nights on the news... ten or fifteen minutes every night...
and so the first four nights, he did one great job showing people
basic UFOlogy... well, through history, and you go back, in the
Bible and this and this and this and this... all the way up and
in the '40's and '50's and then quotes from generals and
ex-presidents and here's what the Mormon Church thinks and here's
what the Catholic Church thinks...
NOVEMBER 11, 1989
L: By the way, if I can insert something there... November 11th
is when that special started... my segment aired on Friday the
10th.
G: Right. Okay, so that's exactly right... and so then, he's
setting them up for the big boom and the big ratings... on
Thursday night... they're going into tomorrow night and we're
going to reveal this man and they show the clip of him in
silhouette from May and now they've got everybody in Las Vegas...
they got the biggest share ever of anything ever in Las Vegas on
that Friday night five o'clock... or six o'clock news show...
whatever it was... and that was the night that revealed this Bob
Lazar...
Q: What happened after that?
G: Oh, Jesus, the switchboards went absolutely crazy... the
public response was unbelievable... George probably received
hundreds of phone calls a day for weeks and weeks if not months.
Because he continued the next week... they introduced Bob on
Friday and then on Monday... they've got more of Bob... well,
here's what happened... he was flown out there... and the blue
bus... and, you know, the story... and then Tuesday they had Lane
Khak(?)... did you tell him anything about Lane...
L: No...
G: That was in "UFO's The Best Evidence"... you saw
him, the hypnosis regression guy?
Q: Umm hmm.
G: Well, that was Lane and they interviewed me, but anyway... it
went on the next week... they used Bob Friday and then Monday,
Tuesday and Wednesday they told his whole story and backed it up
with other people surrounding him and stuff and that program has
been bootlegged around the world.
L: It was a great program.
Q: When was the polygraph?
L: Polygraph... I saw both of them right here.
OCTOBER 10th, 1989
L: The first polygraph was October 10th... that was with the guy
that wanted to be on "Donahue"... and the second one
was on October 17th. Look at this... it says "evidence"
on the... a good reason to...
Q: What does that say?
L: It says "they took this as evidence". This was
during the...
Q: Brothel?
L: Yeah. The brothel.
Q: Wait a minute... the dates for the brothel incident were?
L: I guess it starts here... Friday the 13th.
Q: Was it?
L: Yeah. That's an amazing coincidence. It says "raid"
and it says "calendar gone" the next day, cause I had
to fill this stuff in afterwards. And that was the best fireworks
show ever, for some reason.
G: By the way, they're trying to make those hypnosis regressions
with Lane... and Lane's still here in town if you'd like to talk
to him...
Q: Tell me about that?
L: Well, you can tell him... I was under hypnosis...
G: But it wasn't like these UFO things... Bob had total
consciousness and memory recall of everything...
L: I was trying to remember exactly... the exact wording...
G: He was describing gravity waves...
L: And redraw some of the schematics and other things that I
had...
G: It wasn't anything like they portrayed it... and Bob went back
and they made him remember... he had total memory of
everything... he wanted to get him to relax... cause, you can
imagine... he was taken to that briefing room for random amounts
of time to look through the most exciting information anybody
with any brains could ever see and absorbed a lot of it as it
ended up... he was able to remember a lot of it... but that's
what he went for... it wasn't to remember... it's not like he had
no recall and went there... and oh, that's right, I worked on
flying saucers...
(LAUGHTER)
G: John Lear was on a TV program one time and Lane said that it
sounded like they used a thing called the Orion Response on
Bob... because Bob said, they were slamming fingers in his
chest... and shouting in his ear and threatening him and pointing
guns at his head and everything and so Lear goes on TV... it was
"On the Record" with George Knapp and goes... yeah, I
know this scientist and it's a strange thing, when he goes to
work there, they're able to turn him on and make him remember
everything and then when he goes home... they turn him off and he
goes home and he can't remember anything that happened... and
they used this secret government thing called the Orion
Response... the Orion Response was actually advertised in the
Yellow Pages under hypnotherapist... but this is a John Lear
story. And there are a hundred thousand people who would believe
that you could take a scientist to work, like a robot, and turn
him on and off... and this was the kind of stuff... so, Lear
takes a little thing that Lane said, hey, it sounds like they
might have used the Orion Response on him... which everybody in
hypnotherapy knows about... Lear turns it into a super secret
government thing that only he knows about.
Q: Did anything come of the Khak business? The hypnosis?
L: Yeah, I did recall a lot more specifically... as far as... I
drew exact layouts of how things were... and I got the days
separated... at least back then... wherever those dates are now.
And I tried to remember exact wording in the briefings...
G: And that 115 was activated...
L: Yeah... exactly how... I wanted all the physics down without
any errors and it was a lot for me to remember, but specifically
how the decay went with 115... just some of the specifics...
G: Oh and the stuff on externally corrected evolution and that
stuff...
L: Yeah.
Q: What's externally corrected evolution?
G: Don't look at me like that?
L: No, I'm just saying... go ahead... you started it...
G: Well, (UNCLEAR)... that he read in the reports... that man was
a product of externally corrected evolution and that man is a
species that's been genetically altered sixty-five times.
L: I mentioned that to you before.
Q: Umm hmm... okay.
L: No, I laughed and gave you a look because you say externally
corrected evolution and it flows off your tongue like a common
thing.
G: That's true. Which started me on years of reading, by the way.
I mean I'm still on that.
Q: But that was from the files?
L: Right. So, basically, the only thing we got from Lane was just
remembering things more specifically... mainly the physics and
you need everything verbatim that way... cause, as you well know,
one or two characters out of place or something and everything
goes down the tubes. So that did help to some degree... we took
notes and...
G: When I say that he was in control under hypnosis... was Lane
would get on some subject, because Tracy and I were there one or
two times and then just me and then me and George and Brian... he
actually wanted to televise it originally... not televise it...
video tape it... and, so, I passed Lane a note, because when Bob
would be talking about things that happened, like he'd be talking
about a guy out there named Rene and I would pass Lane a note...
saying "last name"... so he would ask Bob, did you see
a last name on a name tag... but, anyway, he'd get on some
subject and Bob would say, I'm not suppose to talk about that. In
other words, even under hypnosis, he wouldn't let it... it was
kind of wierd.
L: So that's really all that happened with Lane and then really
kind of everything wound down from then. Until the brothel thing
happened.
G: Yeah, UFO's backed down (?) after they saw that Lane story...
because no one set Lane up... Lane didn't know what was coming...
he starts to regress Bob and Bob's talking about discs... and
Lane thinks he's saying desks. And poor Lane... we later became
friends with Lane... and finally Lane realized this guy's talking
about flying discs... which was a big revelation to him...
because Lane was an innocent bystander... he was not briefed...
he didn't know anything... just that Bob was going to try and
remember some things... so Lane had trouble knowing what
direction to go and we'd pass him notes.
Q: Let's talk for a minute... pure speculation... if they still
might be flying them...
L: Not there.
G: D.J., the guy we told you about who was the D.A.'s
investigator who looked up the thing about the gun... there's a
computer guy back in Virginia and he had... I don't know how he
does it... but he gets on these computers and found a list of
people working at national labs in technical positions and this
and that... and the guy who indoctrinated him was Barry
Castillo...
Q: Spell Castillo...
L: Castillio or something like that...
G: Well, anyway, we have him... so this guy back east sends us a
FAX saying he's found a Bartollo Castillio... because Barry and
Castillio don't really go together... so he finds a Bartollo,
which sounds better together, working at San Dia (?) Labs in New
Mexico... this is present day, now... and so with the guy's work
telephone number... with the guy's home address and telephone
number... now the only way to find out if that's the Barry is to
have Bob identify him... but anyway, the curious thing is...
D.J., the guy at the District Attorney's office, runs Bartollo
Castillio in New Mexico and the guy does not have a driver's
license in New Mexico... nor does he have any license plates
there... and this is the guy that we got the address on that says
he works at San Dia Labs and he does that without a car or
without a driver's license in the state of New Mexico...
Q: So, he's from out of state?
G: Well, I guess... that's as far as it's got... there's no sense
in going any further unless we can have Bob... where does he
live... Santa Fe?
L: Alberquerque...
G: Alberquerque... that's right... unless Bob can I.D. this guy.
Oh, my point here is that, we speculated that it's not probable
that Barry was in training Bob and he was in that deep and they
go... okay, your position here's over and now we work you to go
work on this stuff down in San Dia... and considering that the
whole Stealth Wing moved into New Mexico and considering that Bob
told everybody that the disc program was in central Nevada... and
yet this Bartollo Castillio...
L: After that... after all that stuff happened, there was a big
movement of stuff to New Mexico, including the Stealth planes...
it seemed as though there was just a blitz...
G: It's a possibility that the discs are in New Mexico... you
said speculate... and that's purely speculative...
L: But from what we've heard, anyway, and DiaMatto, who
supposedly took a flight around there... and Congressman Bilbrae
(?) helped try and get my records from the FBI, you know, wrote
letters back and forth, because he didn't accept the answers that
they were giving either... so supposedly they did take a flight
around there and then there's apparently nothing left of the
area... if they did take them to the right place.
G: Now DiaMatto wasn't necessarily bright enough... I wouldn't
even believe that he was at (UNCLEAR) drybed... I don't know
Bilbrae, I presume he's an intelligent man, because he's a
Congressman, but DiaMatto was a babe in the woods... this guy, he
might be a (UNCLEAR) investigator, but he was not very bright and
I would not even believe that he knew if that was the place... so
I wouldn't take his word, but the two of them allegedly took a
helicopter flight around there... they couldn't find any evidence
of a base there...
Q: When did they do that... when did they take the flight...
L: Just recently...
G: 1993...
L: Just recently... and, though the roads and what not still
remained, but they all just deadend and disappear now...
Q: And there reason for going there in the newspapers or in the
press was listed as...
G: Well, it wasn't a high profile thing... Billbrae was on the
Defense Committee, or whatever it is, in Congress... DiaMatto was
actually sent out because Senator Byrd, John Glenn and so other
guys were getting so much pressure from their constituents
because of Bob Lazar... this story made it around the world and
the Lazar tapes got out and got bootlegged all over the place
and, you know, people started pressuring their congressmen and
stuff, and so these senators don't want to go on the record yea
or nay about anything and it also rubs their ego, because they
feel there being one hundred guys in the senate... especially the
guy, you know, Sam Nunn... and guys like that... need to know
what's going on and if that, kid, in their words, is telling the
truth and this is going on... and if not through the normal chain
of commands... if this stuff is going on... where are they
getting the money? They want to find the money trail... and, in
addition to the disc program, all the projects of ROARDA (?), our
new spy plane, they can't find the money trail for it... the Air
Force says it doesn't exist... yet people have heard it...
Q: It's funded by the CIA... it's always been that way...
G: People have seen it... actually the word under the table,
which came from John Andrews at the Testor Corporation, his
suggestion... and his suggestions are pretty good, by the way, is
the way it works is... they have a deal with Saudi Arabia and
places like that... that they jack up the price of oil... and, by
the way, that's why we defend Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and places
like that... and they actually get a kick-back from those oil
countries so they don't have to get that from the budget and,
also...
L: I've never heard this...
G: Oh, you've heard this... then the research and development...
if Lockheed, for instance, is doing research and development, and
they don't have to do it for the United States, they can do
research and development under the guise of doing it for Saudi
Arabia, as long as they notify the United States government... we
are doing this research for them... so, therefore, they can get
kick-back money by allowing oil prices to be raised and doing
R&D under the guise of doing it for a foreign government by
notifying the United States government and therefore the United
States government cannot audit their budget and can honestly say
we don't know anything about it.
Q: I don't know if that's true, or not, but it's common knowledge
that the U2 and the SR71 were CIA funded and those funds were not
subject to congressional... not audit... I'm looking for another
word... congress wasn't involved... and I would imagine that
there's the same mechanism today. So that's great... they went
out to Papoose Lake and flew around in the helicopter and didn't
see anything.
G: But that kind of activity has been going on forever...
L: Well, first of all, if what was going on there, when I was
there, was still going on... a bi-budget (?) investigator and a
congressman are not going to fly over Papoose Lake bed... that's
not going to happen... that's absolutely impossible... so, I
think things were moved way before '93 and, in fact, Jim, who
worked at the Tonapa, before he left, already saw... he saw
himself designation areas as S4 between the S4 that I worked at
but at Tonapa... and construction and what not going on... so,
wherever it had moved, I'm convinced it moved... and I think they
were more than happy to bring people in to show them what was
going on... it was just to take the heat off...
G: In fact, when Peter...
L: See, there's nothing...
G: ... Billbrae or DiaMatto... one of them, when they went up
there...
L: But there's a road... you can drive three 18 wheelers on side
by side... but there's nothing there...
G: It was like a Lieutenant Colonel, I guess he met DiaMatto, or
was it Billbrae, anyway, he tells him that he wants to go to
Papoose Lake and they said... so you've been talking to Bob
Lazar, huh? You must remember this?
L: Yes.
G: I don't know which one it was... was it DiaMatto or
Billbrae...
L: Well, when you said that I just tuned out... because I
remember the thing... the CIA guy that Andrews talked to or
something in Washington... remember... and they started talking
about Papoose... do you remember the rest of the story?
G: No, I don't know that one...
L: 'Cause I don't either... it was along the same lines...
G: But, anyway, when DiaMatto or Billbrae, one of them, went out
there... a Lieutenant... it might have been Billbrae, because a
Congressman... a Lieutenant Colonel met him and when he said he
wanted to go to S4, the guy actually mentioned Bob Lazar's name.
He didn't say S4... he said, I want to go to Papoose Lake and he
said, so you've been talking to Bob Lazar, huh? Oh, and that's
right, the first time DiaMatto came out, there was a white-out...
it snowed all over the place up in central Nevada... so there was
no air traffic up or back...
L: That was his surprise visit.
G: Yeah.
L: He came out to surprise everyone... this was the first visit
by any civilian, essentially, out there... so he came up and he
said, okay, I want to go up to S4 and they said... we can't...
it's white-out conditions... we can't take you up there... so he
had to wind up going back to Washington.
G: And the next time, they said, we'll take you up there, but you
aren't going to find anything. That's what they said and we
thought, wow, that's really confident to say... we can take you
up there, but you aren't going to find anything. But, anyway,
that was the DiaMatto sneak visit and there was a white-out. So,
by the way, just so you know a little chronology here, the sneak
visit... wasn't that sneak of a visit, because we met with him
before the Gulf War started and then the Gulf War started and
went and ran its course and DiaMatto came out what... eighteen
months or two years later for the surprise visit... so...
Q: You both met with DiaMatto?
L: Yeah.
G: And George Knapp. But (UNCLEAR -- several voices speaking at
once)... accommodations over at Nellis Air Force Base... George
checked him out in Washington, D.C.... George went to Washington,
D.C. to get his UPI award and he checked DiaMatto out whie he was
there... and DiaMatto's the real thing... what I'm saying is...
DiaMatto came out and did not give his surprise visit till two
years later... so they knew he was coming eighteen months or two
years in advance... cause the whole Gulf War had happened and
wound down and was over before he ever came back... which was a
valid excuse... he had other things to do...
Q: That's a great story. Roads that just end... nothing there.
L: Anybody hungry?
Q: Let's go get something to eat.
L: You feel like getting something to eat?
G: Sure.
(START OF TAPE 7 -- SIDE B -- NOTE: DISTORTED SOUND)
G: ... now to me... it sounded like a guy trying to influence Jon
Farhat into hiring him to make sure he didn't have any trouble.
Q: Really? Well, I think, that the easiest way for... if there
are problems with the story... really the easiest way for them
not to make a big deal out of it is to let it go... the stupidest
thing someone could do would be to try and stop it.
G: However, movies, as you well know, I'm sure, mean a lot
because the legacy of the story of JFK to our children will be
the movie, "JFK"...
Q: I hope not.
G: It will be. That tends to be the general influence...
L: Well, that's kind of sad... that is... but... ah...
Q: Should we go in one car?
(MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON -- DIFFERENT SETTING)
G: When we were outside of Area 51 one night... and, here's the
thing, Bob compartmentalizes information, so he was telling me
stuff... Joe stuff... Jim stuff... maybe Lear stuff... but I
never questioned... we never had a big old meeting... and I
didn't know what they knew... and they didn't know what I knew...
and I felt just fortunate to know what I knew... now a couple
years ago, he told me that the reason I ended up knowing more
than everyone else... because other than Lear, which he didn't
give that much information to, his other friends, who knew him
longer... his older friends, Joe and Jim, didn't ask him. But,
anyway... which I find strange, if you had a friend that could
answer those kind of questions, would you do anything but
question him? But anyway... we were driving out there and Lear
goes... you know how many aliens are here? And I said, you mean,
how many do I know are here or how many do I know you think are
here... and he takes that as an insult... and then he proceeds to
tell us that we can't remember if it's one billion or two
billion...
L: No, how many aliens are living in the mountains that lie along
side of the road? And we think he's joking. But he's serious. And
I said, no, John, how many. I'd say it was a billion, but...
G: It was either one or two billion... who cares... let's say a
billion...
L: There's a billion in there. In these mountains alone.
G: And we said, now do they just live on Highway 15 or over on
Highway 95...
L: And he got so pissed off... he really believed...
G: This guy expected us to believe there were a billion aliens
living in the mountains that line the highway on the way up to
Area 51...
L: It was great... it was absolutely great.
(MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
G: Anyway, he's over in Laos, when we're not supposed to be in
Laos... he flies cargo in there and they go to sleep in these
tents and he's going to bed for the night and Lear goes to bed
and he starts to fall asleep and he hears a KABLAAAMMM like a
bomb goes off and he gets up and he thinks this is the end... he
thinks they're being bombed and this is it... they're all going
to die... but he looks out and across the way there are a bunch
of other pilots out there and there's a light out there and
they're playing games... they're throwing knives against this
wooden building for money... they're gambling and throwing knives
at a target... and he lays back down and all of a sudden
KABLAAAMMM, it happens again, and Lear is scared to death... he's
shaking, but he doesn't know what to do and he doesn't want to
act like a big sissy... cause these guys are out there throwing
knives. So this goes on all night and he doesn't get any sleep
and he gets up in the morning... trying to act macho and he goes
to take a shower and stuff and the subject of the loud explosions
come up and this is when he finds out that those were outgoing
shells... and those were the guns going off... and that's why the
other guys weren't worried and throwing knives and he thought
they were being bombed on... So they gave him the award of the
Laos chicken, wasn't it... or something like that?
L: Yeah.
G: He got a ribbon with it...
L: That's a John Lear story.
G: ... it was equivalent to the woman from Venus in his eyes...
he's just the funnel... he takes everything and doesn't qualify
or anything and he just spits it back out... and when someone
proves it to be absolutely false... Lear says, I'm sorry. And he
thinks that's okay. Now most people in the rest of the world
don't... but Lear's misinformation is not malicious... he's a
numbskull... he's a knucklehead... he could play Curly on the
Three Stooges... but he doesn't look like that... even his
house... this guy lucks out... they've got a house... you know, I
did an appraisal on his house... that's how we got all the
original UFO... five hundred thousand dollars... he's got... it's
on 2.2 acres that (UNCLEAR) on Hollywood Boulevard that have off
on Sunrise Mountain and there's a whole view of the valley... the
nighttime view is breathtaking... things are a lot cheaper here
than down where you're from... I think it's only worth about five
hundred and fifty thousand now... he's got 2.2 acres... the main
house is a two story stucco/tile, pretty nicely decorated
inside... it's forty-four hundred square feet... then in a
U-shape around the pool, there's a seventeen hundred square foot
two bedroom/two bathroom with a fireplace guesthouse...
Q: Jesus... I should live here...
G: You should... a seven hundred and twenty square foot one
bedroom kitchenette/one bath studio, which is next to the four
car garage around the pool and behind it is a tennis court and a
corral with a tack room in it... and that's all...
Q: Five hundred and fifty thousand dollars?
G: Well... anyway, so, this is all on... there's eight/tenths of
an acre behind that... all that good stuff I just described is on
1.4 acres and it's 2.2 acres total... he's got his own wall,
everything... so I don't know how they found out about this, but
this house belonged to a highroller gambler... there were first,
second and third mortgages on it and he went under and they
foreclosed on it...
Q: What does that tell you about highrollers?
G: Yeah... so Lear bid three hundred and thirty thousand bucks on
this house... I don't know where he was going to get that...
L: From his mom...
G: Oh, okay... so he bids it and they turn it down... so all
these mortgagers foreclose on it and it comes back for an auction
at the bank... Lear is the only one that shows up at the
auction... he bids a hundred and seventy-five thousand and they
take it. He had already offered three thirty and they turned it
down... he goes to the auction, only one there and bids one
seventy-five... they take it and the land was worth more than one
seventy-five... so this knucklehead gets this 2.2 acre estate for
a hundred and seventy-five thousand dollars. I mean it's the best
real estate deal I've ever seen...
(LAUGHTER)
(END OF TAPE SEVEN)