WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:04.480 BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. 00:05.140 --> 00:07.160 You're about to listen to Havana Helmet Club. 00:08.000 --> 00:11.160 New episodes will be released weekly, wherever you get your podcasts. 00:11.680 --> 00:16.600 But if you're in the UK, you can listen to the latest episode a week early, first on BBC Sounds. 00:17.500 --> 00:22.500 Just to let you know, this episode contains very strong language and may not be suitable for all audiences. 00:22.500 --> 00:31.560 The top brass of the CIA work on the 7th floor of headquarters in Langley, Virginia. 00:32.300 --> 00:36.700 A place of thick carpets and heavy wood, where secrets gather like dust. 00:38.160 --> 00:44.120 For years, what those people really thought about Havana Syndrome, or anomalous health incidents, was a mystery. 00:45.380 --> 00:50.280 Then, in 2023, they declared there was nothing to see. 00:50.280 --> 00:53.720 No weapon. No enemy. No proof. 00:54.420 --> 00:57.540 Some heard clarity. Others smelled a cover-up. 00:58.360 --> 01:09.460 I am convinced that the evidence that exists in the classified arena directly contradicts the public conclusions expressed by federal agencies as to the origin, cause, and scope of AHIs. 01:10.060 --> 01:15.020 The timing mattered. Havana Syndrome emerged at the dawn of Trump's first term in office. 01:15.020 --> 01:22.440 When Americans couldn't even agree on what counted as fact, Russiagate, fake news, the so-called deep state. 01:23.080 --> 01:26.540 The country was split. Each side convinced the other was lying. 01:26.540 --> 01:33.600 If Havana Syndrome was a weapon, maybe its real force was never the injury. Maybe it was the doubt. 01:33.600 --> 01:40.300 Yeah, it's sort of a perfect attack in that way. 01:40.360 --> 01:49.320 It's absolutely perfect. I know I was the victim of it, but, like, it's so good. It's so good. Perfectly executed. I mean, the whole thing. 01:49.320 --> 02:02.440 It's like a symphony. You took someone like me off the playing field, who's worth a lot of time, money, effort, energy, and training, and all you did was point, shoot, run away, and there's no evidence of it, and you just sit back and call me crazy. 02:03.000 --> 02:06.480 Can you watch the fire burn from across the fence because we're just fighting each other? 02:07.020 --> 02:11.860 I mean, they don't have to do anything. We're busy yelling at each other, and we should be looking outwards. 02:12.760 --> 02:16.680 Bravo. Brilliant. It's so good. It's so good. 02:16.680 --> 02:23.560 In the myth of Jason and the Argonauts, the hero is facing an army of warriors conjured from the earth. 02:24.180 --> 02:30.760 Jason throws a single rock into their ranks. Struck without knowing the source, suspicion turns inward. 02:31.520 --> 02:39.060 Each warrior strikes the other, on and on until the whole army has defeated itself, always looking inwards instead of out. 02:40.380 --> 02:41.600 I'm Jennifer Ford. 02:41.600 --> 02:47.140 I'm Sam Bungi, and this is Havana Helmet Club, Episode 10, The Seventh Floor. 02:47.140 --> 03:11.760 Adam is in a neighborhood outside Washington, D.C. around twilight on a Wednesday in November 2023. 03:11.760 --> 03:16.320 I'm just going to go to the supermarket and grab some carrots for the dog. 03:16.860 --> 03:21.840 Homeowners are out on their lawns blowing leaves into great piles with petrol-spewing machines. 03:23.180 --> 03:27.540 I'm just getting my head mentally around the map here. It takes me a second to figure out. 03:28.020 --> 03:29.840 Is this not your old, um... 03:29.840 --> 03:31.000 I trained out here. 03:31.260 --> 03:31.640 Yeah. 03:31.700 --> 03:32.180 Something bad. 03:32.180 --> 03:32.360 Yeah. 03:32.520 --> 03:32.780 Yeah. 03:33.780 --> 03:36.760 So, I'm pretty familiar. It's just been a little while. 03:37.780 --> 03:43.440 When Adam was learning to be a CIA field agent a decade ago, he did training missions here. 03:44.600 --> 03:46.640 Adam should be using that training in the field. 03:47.300 --> 03:52.360 Instead, he's back here, navigating these old streets with the aid of a support dog. 03:52.360 --> 04:02.380 And, you know, you look at where this topic sits in public today, and if you ask the common person on the street that isn't following this, 04:02.900 --> 04:05.860 they'll say, oh, well, they didn't find anything. It's nothing. It's over. 04:06.740 --> 04:09.700 And the building has shut this down. It's like it never existed. 04:10.260 --> 04:15.140 There's no talk of it. There's no any support. There's no nothing. Zero. 04:16.180 --> 04:19.100 It's like they put out that report, and then it just vanished. 04:19.100 --> 04:26.280 He and others have been pushing for a government inquiry, but the problem has been getting a formal investigation off the ground. 04:27.360 --> 04:30.120 Adam has come to Washington to try to force the issue. 04:30.680 --> 04:35.280 If he can succeed in putting what he believes happened in the case of Havana syndrome on the record, 04:35.940 --> 04:40.120 he thinks he can kick-start inquiries in the U.S. Senate and Congress. 04:40.740 --> 04:42.720 He guides us to a little park to talk. 04:43.420 --> 04:45.500 I'm going to tell them the facts of what happened. 04:46.360 --> 04:47.200 What happened to you? 04:47.200 --> 04:49.580 What happened to me? What happened to General? 04:49.760 --> 04:51.580 Who did what, when, where, why, and how? 04:52.400 --> 04:55.000 They get to determine if they consider that a cover-up or not. 04:55.860 --> 04:59.420 You know, if you ask me, if the question was, do you think this was a cover-up? 04:59.660 --> 05:00.580 Yeah, 100%. 05:00.580 --> 05:04.160 But I'm not going to march in there and go, this was a cover-up, da-da-da. 05:04.320 --> 05:06.180 No, I'm going to sit there and answer their questions. 05:06.740 --> 05:12.080 And at the end of their investigation, with not just me, everyone else that will be involved or is involved, 05:12.080 --> 05:15.680 then they can make the determination if they think it's a cover-up or not. 05:15.680 --> 05:22.440 I'm just, I'm tired, which is probably why you're getting a more open stance on all of this. 05:22.440 --> 05:27.860 But I'm just, I think I'm just, I'm fed up because I've spent so long over the last few weeks 05:27.860 --> 05:31.940 going through so much information that I'd forgotten about. 05:31.940 --> 05:36.440 And it's just made me angry again. 05:37.440 --> 05:42.400 In preparation for this week, Adam's been compiling all the information he's gathered 05:42.400 --> 05:46.480 since that night in Havana in 2016 that he believes makes his case. 05:47.020 --> 05:50.340 Part of preparing for this testimony was going through my records. 05:51.260 --> 05:56.320 And, you know, I'd forgotten how many people on both sides of the river. 05:56.320 --> 06:02.020 Um, when you say that, you mean, like, CIs on one side of the river and the State Department's on the other side of the river. 06:02.200 --> 06:02.440 Okay. 06:02.720 --> 06:07.060 Um, worked against, against us. 06:07.640 --> 06:10.500 Written cables, audio, and other material. 06:11.080 --> 06:14.160 Details of the saga that he believes demonstrate a cover-up. 06:14.600 --> 06:17.180 He has all this in a backpack that never leaves his side. 06:17.520 --> 06:23.100 The same backpack he threw all his belongings into the last time he left Havana, seven years ago. 06:23.940 --> 06:25.780 It's a long, long time. 06:26.320 --> 06:29.280 And I, this can't define me in my life. 06:29.720 --> 06:30.840 This is a part of it. 06:31.040 --> 06:33.860 It's a big chapter, but this can't be what defines me. 06:35.060 --> 06:36.900 I need to run a tinfoil hat brigade. 06:37.020 --> 06:38.460 That's what will define me. 06:38.840 --> 06:40.060 I will become their chief. 06:41.180 --> 06:42.180 We'll march around. 06:45.780 --> 06:50.140 He wants to get these investigations rolling, and then try to move on with his life. 06:51.180 --> 06:52.180 There's rats running out of there. 06:52.180 --> 06:53.600 I was going to say we're surrounded by rats. 06:53.600 --> 06:54.680 There's a lot of rats out. 06:54.680 --> 06:55.180 There's a lot of rats over here. 06:55.180 --> 06:55.820 Yeah, I know. 06:55.820 --> 06:59.240 It definitely takes away from the, um, charm of the... 06:59.240 --> 07:01.760 It's a gorgeous spot. 07:01.820 --> 07:03.320 And then you're like, well, there's a lot of rats here. 07:05.200 --> 07:09.980 Adam has dragged himself to the Washington swamp, but the rats seem a little on the nose. 07:09.980 --> 07:15.940 How did things get so bad between Adam and the others and the CIA? 07:16.940 --> 07:26.040 About 18 months before Adam's trip to Washington, when we'd just started working on this story for the BBC, a series of confusing messages came out of Washington. 07:26.040 --> 07:35.920 At the end of January 2022, the CIA briefed a small group of journalists that Havana syndrome could be explained by other medical causes. 07:36.660 --> 07:41.780 Ten days later, in early February, there was news of another US intelligence community report. 07:41.780 --> 07:48.340 I went to talk with Gordon Carrera, who was the BBC's security correspondent at the time. 07:49.340 --> 07:55.100 Carrera had covered Havana syndrome since the story broke, and I wanted to know how he was squaring these two reports. 07:55.100 --> 07:58.140 Well, well, you know what? It is odd. 07:58.820 --> 08:08.640 To me, one plausible reason is that there are kind of still quite different opinions within the intelligence community and kind of, you know, rival camps. 08:08.900 --> 08:15.820 And some who are, who remain quite dismissive of Havana syndrome and others who believe that there is something there. 08:16.100 --> 08:21.100 And I feel like on this story generally, there's a lot of people with entrenched positions. 08:21.100 --> 08:27.000 The first paper did mention a core of around two dozen cases that remained unexplained. 08:27.640 --> 08:34.340 But it said it was very unlikely that any of it was the result of a concerted global campaign by a foreign adversary. 08:35.660 --> 08:44.900 I felt the key takeaway was to play down the sense that there was some massive campaign going on. 08:45.140 --> 08:46.660 So they wanted to kind of... 08:46.660 --> 08:47.460 By a foreign... 08:47.460 --> 08:49.900 By a foreign state, you know, that they're... 08:49.900 --> 08:54.020 You know, in the last year, you got more and more cases coming in. 08:54.120 --> 09:01.720 And it felt like every month you were getting, like, his case is in Vienna, his case is in Berlin, his case is in Hanoi, you know, his case is in Latin America. 09:01.900 --> 09:04.700 And it felt like it was kind of building and building and building the volume. 09:05.520 --> 09:13.320 And so you could imagine the kind of sense that people might have that actually, is there something really huge going on? 09:13.320 --> 09:17.540 And I guess the message from that first CIA study was to say, no. 09:17.700 --> 09:18.240 Calm down. 09:18.380 --> 09:18.900 Calm down. 09:19.220 --> 09:25.840 I think there was a bit of a sense in some quarters, well, maybe that's, maybe that's Havana syndrome kind of, you know, done and dusted, you know. 09:25.840 --> 09:33.740 But then came that other report, which was from the wider intelligence community, including the CIA, FBI and NSA. 09:34.460 --> 09:35.740 And it had a different focus. 09:35.740 --> 09:58.680 It was focused on that small group of cases that couldn't be explained by other factors and basically said, it looks like there's something to those cases, which isn't environmental or medical or psychological or social, and could well be directed energy or perhaps ultrasound. 09:58.680 --> 10:07.900 And that, that was, because suddenly you're back in the, well, well, you know, that's a device, you know, that's someone doing something to someone. 10:08.280 --> 10:12.620 They'd only released the executive summary, and a good half of that was blacked out. 10:13.000 --> 10:18.320 You can do quite a lot of interpretation with a declassified document, even where bits are classified. 10:18.760 --> 10:19.040 Yeah. 10:19.340 --> 10:21.360 You can see why some bits are still classified. 10:21.480 --> 10:22.220 So there's a bit here. 10:23.040 --> 10:28.660 Pulsed electromagnetic energy, particularly in the radio frequency, plausibly explains the core characteristics, although information can be used. 10:28.680 --> 10:32.100 And then there's a big blacked out section. 10:32.180 --> 10:32.760 It's very interesting. 10:33.160 --> 10:33.340 Yeah. 10:33.540 --> 10:37.600 Using, so just going back to that, seems like some kind of device. 10:37.780 --> 10:38.300 Yeah, exactly. 10:38.440 --> 10:42.580 That, that looks like what's been blacked out there is the technical details of a device. 10:43.320 --> 10:44.440 It was all hypothetical. 10:44.840 --> 10:47.860 And this hypothetical device didn't even need to be a weapon. 10:48.500 --> 10:53.360 As all the American spies posted to Havana told us, Cuba was a surveillance state. 10:54.040 --> 10:55.920 Maybe this was eavesdropping gone wrong. 10:56.100 --> 11:06.300 So, you know, at the most malicious, you've got someone going around trying to harm deliberately U.S. spies and diplomats, you know, by, by, by hurting their brains. 11:06.700 --> 11:13.120 Another theory is that someone is trying to carry out electronic surveillance of U.S. diplomats and spies. 11:13.120 --> 11:17.100 And as a by-product, it's caused harm to them. 11:17.580 --> 11:20.900 And so that's the slight distinction between a weapon and a device. 11:23.320 --> 11:24.160 Who knows? 11:24.400 --> 11:25.460 Device takes it both. 11:25.460 --> 11:33.800 This week, Adam's staying in a furnished apartment in Arlington, Virginia. 11:34.180 --> 11:37.220 It's on a lower ground floor and has one of those keys with a PIN code. 11:37.940 --> 11:39.320 Adam's fumbling with the numbers. 11:39.860 --> 11:40.900 Welcome to brain damage. 11:42.240 --> 11:43.540 Adam's dressed casually. 11:44.180 --> 11:45.480 Sneakers, a baseball cap. 11:45.980 --> 11:48.440 The backpack he's never without slung over his shoulder. 11:48.440 --> 11:54.500 Anything that I don't want to lose, you know, stays with me on my person. 11:55.040 --> 11:59.480 I'm coming out here to testify and if some of the information I need is in my bag. 12:00.020 --> 12:02.640 And I left it here and we got home and it was gone. 12:03.340 --> 12:06.220 How devastating that would be, you know. 12:06.380 --> 12:06.600 Yeah. 12:06.600 --> 12:17.200 Not only is it gone for the purposes of what I'm here to do, but who took it and, you know, what are they going to do with it? 12:17.600 --> 12:20.420 He has cameras set up around the rented apartment. 12:21.200 --> 12:22.980 He says it's to thwart foreign intel. 12:23.340 --> 12:27.140 We might try to mess with him while he's here, like he says they did back in Philadelphia. 12:27.140 --> 12:37.640 Just, if there's anyone walking in or out that shouldn't be, you just have some external proof, you know. 12:37.900 --> 12:39.460 I always travel with my own cameras. 12:39.740 --> 12:41.380 Not a big deal, not a big footprint. 12:41.700 --> 12:45.020 It's just an extra layer for me. 12:45.380 --> 12:50.060 Adam is concerned about being spied on, robbed or even targeted with something while he's here. 12:50.620 --> 12:55.300 But for everything he's doing this week, he doesn't expect his own government is going to bother him. 12:55.300 --> 12:58.660 I don't think I'm of interest to anyone, frankly, anymore. 12:58.840 --> 13:01.860 I think they're annoyed with me, but I think that's as far as it goes. 13:02.440 --> 13:03.840 The information I have is dated. 13:04.700 --> 13:06.320 I'm a dated individual. 13:06.640 --> 13:07.020 I'm not. 13:07.660 --> 13:11.060 I don't have the most damaging information anymore. 13:11.680 --> 13:20.460 I always act on the premise that they're up on my phone, but again, that's the conceded notion of you're important enough for that. 13:21.160 --> 13:22.340 I just don't think I am anymore. 13:22.340 --> 13:52.320 I don't think I am. 13:53.100 --> 13:56.680 Now he's picked up word about another report that's coming down the track. 13:57.020 --> 13:59.880 The findings from a study by the National Institutes of Health. 14:00.760 --> 14:05.140 Adam himself made just one visit to that program before deciding he didn't trust them. 14:05.900 --> 14:09.900 He's learned they'll dismiss Havana Syndrome and point to psychogenic illness. 14:09.900 --> 14:11.960 What a stupid game. 14:11.960 --> 14:15.580 You know, I look at this at the grand scheme of things. 14:15.780 --> 14:26.280 I go, the hours and hours and hours and all the money and all the time and efforts and energies towards making this go away. 14:26.280 --> 14:37.160 And it's like, we probably could have rock solidly solved this if we took the same amount of people and effort and energy and put it towards the actual problem versus calling us the problem. 14:37.160 --> 14:47.600 That new report did find that 40% of the patients studied met the criteria of functional neurological disorders, as in psychogenic illness. 14:47.600 --> 14:50.160 So where are we on that whole question? 14:50.840 --> 14:54.600 Well, it seems like everyone accepts that it has played some part in Havana Syndrome. 14:55.300 --> 14:57.160 Adam thinks there are likely cases. 14:57.160 --> 15:12.080 Basically, my client base is as strong as the weakest link, right? 15:12.140 --> 15:19.620 If I introduce a case that turns out to be false, it potentially undermines the credibility of everybody else. 15:19.620 --> 15:29.140 So I have to be very cautious in the clients I take and the advocacy that I push and the statements that I make. 15:29.600 --> 15:32.920 For one thing, I'm only representing federal government employees. 15:33.180 --> 15:42.200 So I am not representing civilians in that sense, non-federal employees, which I get contacted by all the time. 15:42.200 --> 15:51.420 One of the consequences of Havana Syndrome is that it's become like a lightning rod for members of the public, who are also convinced that they are being targeted by directed energy. 15:52.260 --> 15:55.040 Zade says people get in touch with him all the time looking for help. 15:55.040 --> 16:00.760 For one thing, clearly these people are suffering from something. 16:01.040 --> 16:14.140 I mean, they send me photographs of what their body looks like, and one person sent me a frickin' supposedly bone fragment of their skull in a box that I did not open and returned, because I'm like, no thank you. 16:14.400 --> 16:15.320 They send you a bit of that. 16:15.340 --> 16:16.120 That's what they said. 16:16.280 --> 16:17.420 That's what the letter said. 16:18.960 --> 16:21.360 I'm like, okay, thanks, but no thanks. 16:21.360 --> 16:30.340 Look, I will not belittle that they're suffering from something, but I live by Occam's razor. 16:30.480 --> 16:48.560 The simplest explanation is the best explanation, and there is no reason to believe, based on any evidence we know so far, that person X who lives in city Y in the middle of nowhere, USA-ville, is subject of Russian microwave weapons. 16:48.560 --> 16:53.340 And quite frankly, a lot of these people come to me and they say, it's the U.S. government that's microwaving them. 16:53.780 --> 16:56.540 Some people say it's the FedEx driver who's microwaving them. 16:56.540 --> 17:10.600 He's heard about one theory he finds almost irresistible, that if the aim is confusion, then this is all part of the dastardly plan, to target civilians too and throw any investigation off track by muddying the waters. 17:10.600 --> 17:19.700 Like, deliberately doing it for disinformation purposes to create this mass hysteria and notion of everybody's crazy. 17:20.120 --> 17:25.260 I mean, it's a beautiful spy thriller theory. 17:26.020 --> 17:34.500 And I don't know, maybe it's true, but, you know, that's, I think, it's more the work of fiction and our vivid imaginations at this point. 17:34.500 --> 17:41.980 Zaid recognized the challenge in working out where to draw the line between genuine cases and everyone else that was now coming forward. 17:42.680 --> 17:48.160 It's something that former State Department Medical Director Dr. Charles Rosenfarb had struggled with too. 17:48.600 --> 17:51.900 Something happened to some people, no doubt. 17:51.900 --> 18:00.320 Back when he was trying to figure out the scope of the problem, he says they'd been inclusive, sending everyone to UPenn's Center for Brain Injury and Repair. 18:01.260 --> 18:05.820 But the problems began when they decided that not everyone in that group was a genuine case. 18:06.640 --> 18:11.660 You would think people would be happy to find out that they don't have something really wrong with them. 18:11.660 --> 18:22.800 But for whatever reason, this is a situation where people feel that they feel wronged if they're not told they have something that's serious like this. 18:23.000 --> 18:24.080 People want a diagnosis. 18:24.480 --> 18:24.720 Yeah. 18:25.040 --> 18:28.320 And again, for many, and I'm not criticizing any of the patients. 18:29.520 --> 18:34.980 It's just that I think in human nature that it becomes part of your identity, you know. 18:34.980 --> 18:45.040 And I think in this situation, the nature of it, they are now, for better or worse, you know, Havana Syndrome victims. 18:45.540 --> 18:53.820 Professor Simon Wesley, who investigates mass psychogenic illness cases, says there often comes a point when distrust of authority is so ingrained, 18:54.320 --> 19:01.620 and people have built so much of their identity around one particular understanding of their illness, that that line can no longer be found. 19:01.620 --> 19:05.660 So you've got to find an explanation that isn't stigmatizing. 19:07.040 --> 19:09.260 And unfortunately, we're probably past that. 19:09.480 --> 19:14.120 In so many of the episodes that go on and on and on, we've passed the point of no return. 19:14.660 --> 19:22.940 And that's what really worries me about this particular thing, that it doesn't really matter now what causes it, because the battle lines are drawn. 19:22.940 --> 19:30.920 So, you know, any form of kind of reason, rational discussion flies out of the window, emotions rise, and positions are taken. 19:31.680 --> 19:38.360 And also, and then by that time, it's like looking for footprints on a beach, which has just been driven over by a tank. 19:38.700 --> 19:42.100 It's gone, vanished, and won't return. 19:42.100 --> 19:46.240 And, um, I personally can't see a simple way out. 19:51.000 --> 19:54.200 It's the start of the morning rush hour, and I'm out on the street with Adam. 19:55.040 --> 19:58.400 I'm outside his apartment, waiting for an Uber that will accommodate a dog. 19:59.280 --> 20:02.260 We're on our way to the capital, where Adam is hoping to testify. 20:03.260 --> 20:06.540 Out on the street, a man is berating a woman for her parking skills. 20:06.540 --> 20:10.320 But Adam points out it's perfectly legal for your tire to touch the curb. 20:11.340 --> 20:14.820 A little over ten years ago, Adam was a small-town police officer. 20:15.440 --> 20:19.140 He's gone from that fraternity to the CIA, where he believed he'd found his people, 20:19.620 --> 20:22.980 to being alone, at home, but in hostile territory. 20:23.500 --> 20:26.940 I'm glad you're here, because if someone tries to kill me in the next 20 minutes, 20:27.040 --> 20:29.140 at least it'll be on, uh, radio. 20:29.140 --> 20:30.000 Yeah, that's good. 20:30.000 --> 20:37.020 I saw you give that guy a second look there. 20:37.080 --> 20:39.160 Yeah, yeah, I wasn't happy with him. 20:40.080 --> 20:45.180 He's been picking up mixed signals about whether his appearance in front of Congress will go ahead. 20:45.820 --> 20:47.760 I'd be curious to see if today actually happened. 20:48.540 --> 20:52.320 The previous evening, after I left Adam, I got a text message... 20:52.320 --> 20:53.120 Is this her guy? 20:53.220 --> 20:56.640 ...saying he'd been the subject of a drawn-out fight in Congress that day. 20:56.640 --> 20:58.120 Hey, that's your service dog. 20:58.120 --> 21:00.000 Yeah. Down. 21:00.960 --> 21:01.320 Subtle. 21:02.400 --> 21:03.800 If you jump on the other side. 21:04.060 --> 21:04.200 Yeah. 21:05.060 --> 21:08.060 Apparently, Adam has had a visit from a Congressional staff member 21:08.060 --> 21:12.000 and learned there are people trying to stop the whole thing from going ahead. 21:13.460 --> 21:13.940 Morning. 21:14.280 --> 21:15.020 Hey, good morning, sir. 21:15.700 --> 21:16.300 How are you? 21:16.460 --> 21:17.180 Fine, thank you. 21:18.060 --> 21:21.080 So, go on. What happened last night, then, after I left? 21:21.080 --> 21:30.360 Um, someone came over to, um, discuss today, and it looked real, they looked really rough, frankly. 21:30.860 --> 21:34.800 Um, so I asked what was, you know, what's going on. 21:34.880 --> 21:39.160 They're like, well, the good news is tomorrow is likely still happening. 21:39.160 --> 21:43.120 Well, you thought it was, you didn't know that it wasn't going to happen, yeah. 21:43.340 --> 21:48.120 Well, I guess yesterday was just a knockdown, drag them out, screaming fights, everything, 21:48.620 --> 21:50.700 um, in Congress to make today happen. 21:51.360 --> 21:54.080 Because there were people trying to stop it again. 21:54.080 --> 22:03.800 So, it's, so, it was indirectly implied that, um, the agency was trying to stop today from happening. 22:06.080 --> 22:07.560 Whether that's true or not, I don't know. 22:09.040 --> 22:11.140 Yeah, so you have to come prepared, but... 22:11.140 --> 22:16.920 Yeah, you come prepared, but I may be, I may just be going and showing my dog off to everyone, 22:17.120 --> 22:17.980 and then walk leaving. 22:18.220 --> 22:22.480 You know, it could be a very brief, uh, endeavor, or it might go ahead as planned. 22:22.680 --> 22:23.060 We'll see. 22:24.080 --> 22:27.340 Adam has brushed his hair, and he's wearing a suit and tie, and another item, 22:27.820 --> 22:32.480 that at first glance looks like a waistcoat, but is, in fact, a weighted balance vest. 22:33.300 --> 22:33.880 Yeah, yeah. 22:34.700 --> 22:37.500 I usually, well, you, you have been wearing a jumper, so you've not seen it. 22:38.120 --> 22:39.020 You were wearing it yesterday? 22:39.020 --> 22:40.320 Yeah, yeah, I wear it all the time. 22:40.660 --> 22:44.100 When I'm here, it's just, it helps free up a bit of brain space. 22:45.200 --> 22:48.000 Yeah, it doesn't help when it looks like a suicide vest inside. 22:48.740 --> 22:49.540 What does it do? 22:49.820 --> 22:53.320 It gives me a, like, if, if there's a pendulum swinging, 22:53.320 --> 22:56.740 you know, the pendulum always stops in the center where gravity is. 22:56.840 --> 23:01.860 It helps give me a pendulum to operate on subconsciously, so I know where the ground is. 23:02.860 --> 23:05.880 If I, if I don't have it, I'm just kind of floating around in space. 23:06.820 --> 23:08.620 What's this, um, pen? 23:08.620 --> 23:11.380 Uh, it's for the Exceptional Service Medal. 23:11.980 --> 23:18.580 It's a very inconvenient document that they've handed us, um, that says we were victims of attacks. 23:19.000 --> 23:21.700 I bet they wish they could take that shit off me now, but they can't. 23:21.700 --> 23:33.640 The CIA gave Adam the Exceptional Service Medallion back in 2020 for being attacked in Havana 23:33.640 --> 23:35.860 and stepping up to bring the issue to light. 23:36.520 --> 23:40.440 He's wearing it as a reminder of how much the CIA has changed its position. 23:41.300 --> 23:44.160 One man's whistleblower is another's conspiracy theorist. 23:44.160 --> 23:48.180 It seems that at one time or another, Adam has been both for the CIA. 23:49.300 --> 23:51.280 He has his backpack with all his data. 23:52.160 --> 23:56.240 He seems eager to pass its contents off, to get it out of his life. 23:57.700 --> 24:01.880 It's going to the appropriate places, and then it will be destroyed on my end. 24:02.300 --> 24:05.380 There's a lot of information that a lot of people would be upset about, 24:05.720 --> 24:10.300 and they can be upset, but if they want to send the Bureau to come raid the house, 24:10.300 --> 24:14.080 that's great. It's not going to exist anymore in my home. 24:14.560 --> 24:19.840 It will exist in the hands of the people that it gets given to over this week, and that's it. 24:20.500 --> 24:24.180 But today, he's hoping to stand in front of Congress and lay it all out. 24:24.700 --> 24:30.140 Today is what happened, so it's documented, like, what, you know, what is the, 24:31.020 --> 24:34.540 how did everything happen, how did it play out, what was the timeline look like, 24:34.540 --> 24:41.180 and eventually who did what, why, when, and should they be held accountable for some of their actions. 24:41.900 --> 24:45.320 And I guess, you know, in the context of yesterday, it's like, 24:45.380 --> 24:49.920 why is the agency still saying that it didn't happen? 24:50.460 --> 24:51.900 It's a great question, yeah. 24:52.300 --> 24:55.440 Because they've put their final stamp on things, 24:55.820 --> 24:59.820 and so I think the hope is that they can just walk, you know, 24:59.820 --> 25:01.700 I think they tried to drop the mic and walk away, 25:02.340 --> 25:06.940 and we're not allowing them to get away with that so easily. 25:09.520 --> 25:13.280 Adam talks about a cover-up, but what would the CIA be hiding? 25:14.220 --> 25:22.700 I find that it is very seldom that at least the US government can keep a real secret for very long. 25:23.740 --> 25:26.440 Something gets out. It just ultimately does. 25:26.920 --> 25:28.580 This is attorney Mark Zaid again. 25:28.580 --> 25:31.320 Now, there are secrets, of course, that never get out, 25:31.380 --> 25:33.600 and there are secrets that are kept secret for decades and decades. 25:33.900 --> 25:35.900 I mean, if you're right, they're keeping a good secret here. 25:35.920 --> 25:39.300 It's, yeah, it is. It's a very good secret here. 25:39.960 --> 25:46.160 After, you know, the FBI, CIA, the Canadian Mounties, 25:46.320 --> 25:53.100 all of the people investigating this, you know, since 2016, 25:53.620 --> 25:56.560 why do we still not have any information on a weapon? 25:56.560 --> 26:00.260 Yeah, and it's a great question, and it's a troubling question. 26:00.980 --> 26:05.140 People have suggested that the government is trying to avoid spiraling compensation claims, 26:05.580 --> 26:08.460 or to stop it taking a toll on morale at the agency. 26:09.080 --> 26:13.140 Havana syndrome was reportedly making it harder to recruit young people to work abroad. 26:13.940 --> 26:16.640 But one big reason that several people have suggested 26:16.640 --> 26:20.100 is that it's because they are trying to divert attention away 26:20.100 --> 26:23.180 from whatever America might be developing itself. 26:23.280 --> 26:25.280 And I would not discount this yet, 26:26.280 --> 26:29.600 that we've done the same thing to the other side. 26:30.120 --> 26:33.900 Now, I certainly hope it wasn't for the purpose of trying to harm them, 26:33.900 --> 26:37.800 but if it was a technology that was being utilized 26:37.800 --> 26:45.340 to extract information from, especially, some sort of technological systems. 26:46.100 --> 26:49.860 We, the United States, invented most of this microwave technology 26:49.860 --> 26:52.300 in the 50s and 60s. 26:52.300 --> 26:54.560 The odds are we were doing it too. 26:56.180 --> 26:57.940 Directed energy is used in surveillance. 26:58.800 --> 27:01.360 The U.S. has its own directed energy weapons program. 27:01.920 --> 27:05.500 But it's all, as one expert described it, incredibly classified. 27:07.100 --> 27:09.200 Why do you think they're so heavily classified? 27:10.200 --> 27:12.340 Well, the government's spending a billion dollars a year 27:12.340 --> 27:15.860 on weapons designed to shoot down drones. 27:15.860 --> 27:17.780 This is Professor Kenneth Foster. 27:18.580 --> 27:21.980 And so they're not about to explain what they're doing 27:21.980 --> 27:26.920 to let their opponents develop countermeasures against these weapons. 27:28.180 --> 27:32.200 The government is very secretive about its directed energy weapons 27:32.200 --> 27:35.760 because of its tremendous military application. 27:36.240 --> 27:37.680 Foster is the microwaves expert 27:37.680 --> 27:40.180 that the neurologist Professor John Stone contacted 27:40.180 --> 27:42.440 to discuss that theory of his 27:42.440 --> 27:44.360 that some more low-key device 27:44.360 --> 27:46.720 could have triggered a functional illness in the patients. 27:47.900 --> 27:49.400 Foster had told Stone that, yes, 27:49.500 --> 27:51.360 it was totally possible to have a device 27:51.360 --> 27:52.500 that the target would feel. 27:53.100 --> 27:55.620 In fact, Foster knows firsthand what it feels like 27:55.620 --> 27:57.580 to be the target of a microwave beam. 27:58.000 --> 28:00.380 He's worked in the field since the 1970s. 28:01.060 --> 28:02.700 Back then, it was his job to look after 28:02.700 --> 28:05.420 the safety of Navy officers working with microwaves. 28:06.220 --> 28:07.500 He studied the fray effect, 28:07.840 --> 28:11.360 those sounds that radar operators reported hearing inside their heads. 28:11.360 --> 28:13.120 You didn't try it on yourself, right? 28:13.120 --> 28:14.540 Sure, I did. 28:14.980 --> 28:15.360 Of course. 28:15.800 --> 28:16.380 And I tried it. 28:16.480 --> 28:18.060 My commanding officer came in, 28:18.120 --> 28:20.140 and I stuck his head in the microwave beam, too. 28:20.540 --> 28:22.640 Foster said he and his buddies used to take turns 28:22.640 --> 28:24.680 putting their heads in the path of the microwaves, 28:25.060 --> 28:26.420 all in the name of research. 28:27.020 --> 28:28.240 What does it sound like? 28:28.660 --> 28:29.780 When I put my head in, 28:29.880 --> 28:33.320 it sounded as if one would experience 28:33.320 --> 28:34.540 by putting a head underwater 28:34.540 --> 28:36.280 and banging two sharp objects together 28:36.280 --> 28:39.120 in a very sharp, high-frequency sound. 28:40.120 --> 28:42.260 Foster had been a sceptic on Havana syndrome. 28:42.260 --> 28:43.960 He was the one who declared, 28:44.080 --> 28:44.780 you might as well say, 28:44.900 --> 28:46.280 little green men from Mars 28:46.280 --> 28:47.660 were throwing darts of energy. 28:48.620 --> 28:51.280 The U.S. military has a high-powered microwave weapon 28:51.280 --> 28:52.520 used for crowd control, 28:52.720 --> 28:54.640 but it causes no permanent harm, 28:54.840 --> 28:55.980 and it's also so enormous, 28:56.180 --> 28:57.920 it has to be mounted on the back of a truck. 28:58.860 --> 29:00.900 Most of the microwave weapons we know about 29:00.900 --> 29:03.340 are used to target drones, not people. 29:03.860 --> 29:04.740 But Foster said, 29:04.740 --> 29:05.520 the truth is, 29:05.960 --> 29:08.080 there's a huge amount that we just don't know. 29:09.080 --> 29:10.960 The government releases almost nothing at all 29:10.960 --> 29:13.000 about possible microwave effects 29:13.000 --> 29:15.400 because microwave-directed energy weapons 29:15.400 --> 29:16.900 are so incredibly classified. 29:17.740 --> 29:20.840 And since this whole Havana syndrome thing 29:20.840 --> 29:22.260 is, for better or worse, 29:22.440 --> 29:26.520 tied at the waist with the directed energy weapons, 29:26.520 --> 29:28.760 even though there may be no real connection, 29:29.420 --> 29:31.260 that prevents people like me 29:31.260 --> 29:32.840 from finding reliable information. 29:33.840 --> 29:36.240 Several microwaves experts that we spoke to 29:36.240 --> 29:37.600 didn't want to talk on the record 29:37.600 --> 29:39.620 for fear of losing government contracts, 29:40.080 --> 29:42.080 or they would only speculate on rumors. 29:43.220 --> 29:45.260 It means whatever the U.S. government knows 29:45.260 --> 29:46.960 about the feasibility of a device 29:46.960 --> 29:48.460 that could cause Havana syndrome, 29:49.120 --> 29:51.340 including whether America has one itself, 29:51.900 --> 29:53.260 lies in this black hole. 29:53.260 --> 29:56.680 The issue of anomalous health incidents 29:56.680 --> 29:58.240 or unidentified health incidents 29:58.240 --> 29:59.320 are a perfect example 29:59.320 --> 30:00.760 of where the system is broken. 30:01.160 --> 30:02.920 Mark Zade, the whistleblower attorney. 30:03.460 --> 30:06.860 It is an indication of where the agencies 30:06.860 --> 30:07.800 and the U.S. government 30:07.800 --> 30:10.140 has sacrificed the individual employees 30:10.140 --> 30:12.540 for whatever greater good 30:12.540 --> 30:14.340 they think they are protecting. 30:15.160 --> 30:17.700 What struck us most is how little has changed. 30:18.240 --> 30:19.600 Back in the 1920s, 30:19.780 --> 30:21.260 scientific American reporters 30:21.260 --> 30:22.980 were chasing rumors of ray guns. 30:23.880 --> 30:25.180 One story claimed a prototype 30:25.180 --> 30:27.060 had blown up a taxi in Paris, 30:27.520 --> 30:29.340 another that a beam could wipe out an army 30:29.340 --> 30:30.540 without leaving a trace. 30:31.440 --> 30:32.460 A hundred years on, 30:32.800 --> 30:34.580 people say the same about Havana syndrome. 30:35.460 --> 30:36.020 The proof? 30:36.580 --> 30:37.900 Always just out of reach. 30:37.900 --> 30:47.280 It was like to tip in cash before they rate you on Uber. 30:49.280 --> 30:50.420 Back in Washington, 30:50.580 --> 30:52.540 our Uber has left us on Independence Avenue 30:52.540 --> 30:55.080 and we're approaching the West Lawn of the Capitol. 30:55.880 --> 30:57.140 The brilliant white buildings, 30:57.760 --> 30:59.140 familiar from countless movies 30:59.140 --> 31:01.120 and also riot footage, 31:01.640 --> 31:02.340 look surreal, 31:02.840 --> 31:03.660 like set dressing. 31:04.540 --> 31:06.120 This guy showed up with a dog. 31:06.120 --> 31:09.580 I started talking about the CIA. 31:09.580 --> 31:10.440 I know. 31:12.440 --> 31:16.240 So, it's a big first step for the investigations, 31:16.540 --> 31:17.680 but it feels kind of, 31:18.340 --> 31:19.380 I don't know, 31:19.880 --> 31:21.800 it feels nice to be the first one in, I guess. 31:22.140 --> 31:22.900 It kind of feels fitting. 31:23.360 --> 31:26.880 Why does it feel good or fitting to be the first? 31:28.760 --> 31:30.020 I just think that, 31:30.600 --> 31:34.040 not that I was the first to be hit in all of this, 31:34.120 --> 31:38.020 but I think I was the first to certainly raise the alarm 31:38.020 --> 31:40.300 and to keep fighting. 31:41.040 --> 31:43.340 I guess that's why, you know, 31:43.400 --> 31:46.000 I was named Patient Zero by the press for so many years, 31:46.140 --> 31:48.180 is that they all thought I was the first one. 31:49.180 --> 31:49.800 I mean, I wasn't. 31:49.880 --> 31:53.120 I was just the first one to fight and to make it public. 31:53.720 --> 31:55.180 What I'm most pleased about 31:55.180 --> 31:58.500 is that this will be written forever. 31:59.020 --> 32:01.880 It kind of lets me close some doors mentally 32:01.880 --> 32:05.500 and knowing that I've kind of done everything 32:05.500 --> 32:06.780 I've set out to do, hopefully, 32:07.460 --> 32:08.760 in doing this. 32:08.920 --> 32:10.380 So, yeah, we'll see. 32:10.600 --> 32:11.920 We'll see how it all turns out. 32:12.440 --> 32:13.160 During this visit, 32:13.260 --> 32:15.780 I've seen how much a full day takes out of Adam. 32:16.420 --> 32:17.440 He takes naps, 32:17.440 --> 32:18.520 but even then, 32:19.040 --> 32:20.280 he can be fine one moment 32:20.280 --> 32:21.580 and the next, 32:22.000 --> 32:23.320 it's as if he's being drugged. 32:25.360 --> 32:26.080 So, do you have, 32:26.160 --> 32:27.040 do you have, like, 32:27.120 --> 32:29.260 techniques and stuff 32:29.260 --> 32:30.480 if you start getting tired with it? 32:30.520 --> 32:32.080 I'm assuming this will be really taxing. 32:32.460 --> 32:33.180 Yeah, I've got, 32:33.340 --> 32:33.820 you know, 32:33.960 --> 32:35.080 I've got five-hour energies 32:35.080 --> 32:36.460 and a bunch of shit caffeine in it 32:36.460 --> 32:38.100 and, I mean, 32:38.160 --> 32:38.620 this could be, 32:38.720 --> 32:39.020 like, say, 32:39.080 --> 32:40.060 it could be 20 minutes, 32:40.140 --> 32:41.300 could be four or five hours, 32:41.360 --> 32:41.700 I don't know. 32:41.840 --> 32:42.040 Yeah. 32:42.740 --> 32:42.980 Yeah. 32:43.100 --> 32:43.800 Or nothing. 32:44.260 --> 32:44.720 Or nothing. 32:44.720 --> 32:45.160 Yeah. 32:45.520 --> 32:46.440 Might just be a, 32:46.980 --> 32:47.900 go look at the decor. 32:48.760 --> 32:50.200 We reach the side entrance 32:50.200 --> 32:51.220 of the Capitol building. 32:51.340 --> 32:51.860 I'm just trying to blend it. 32:51.860 --> 32:52.880 All right, I'll let you go here. 32:53.100 --> 32:53.400 Okay. 32:53.840 --> 32:54.400 Good luck. 32:54.400 --> 32:58.000 A woman in a navy suit and heels 32:58.000 --> 32:58.800 and a lanyard 32:58.800 --> 33:00.260 appears out of the Capitol 33:00.260 --> 33:02.180 and guides Adam and his dog inside. 33:03.020 --> 33:03.820 I stick around 33:03.820 --> 33:05.240 to see if he'll re-emerge. 33:05.840 --> 33:06.300 He doesn't. 33:07.160 --> 33:08.160 Today, it seems, 33:08.460 --> 33:09.720 is going ahead after all. 33:11.400 --> 33:13.480 But what about Cuba's day in court? 33:14.320 --> 33:15.640 Though the CIA determined 33:15.640 --> 33:16.820 no state actor 33:16.820 --> 33:18.360 had attacked its people in Havana, 33:18.960 --> 33:20.380 there's been no public statement 33:20.380 --> 33:21.220 about their decision 33:21.220 --> 33:22.760 to abandon the Cuba post, 33:22.760 --> 33:24.620 kicking off a mass exodus 33:24.620 --> 33:26.840 and unravelling the U.S.-Cuba thaw. 33:28.000 --> 33:29.260 Ambassador Jose Cabana 33:29.260 --> 33:30.900 says that as soon as Havana Syndrome 33:30.900 --> 33:31.800 got into the hands 33:31.800 --> 33:33.240 of some Washington politicians, 33:33.820 --> 33:35.100 it became America's weapon 33:35.100 --> 33:35.800 against Cuba. 33:36.660 --> 33:37.360 He wonders 33:37.360 --> 33:39.260 if they did genuinely believe 33:39.260 --> 33:40.340 that Cuba had attacked 33:40.340 --> 33:41.360 either their people 33:41.360 --> 33:42.320 or at the very least 33:42.320 --> 33:43.380 failed to protect them. 33:44.060 --> 33:44.840 Why not go after 33:44.840 --> 33:45.700 the other countries 33:45.700 --> 33:46.440 where this had happened 33:46.440 --> 33:47.360 in the same way? 33:47.360 --> 33:49.760 Why, if you had 33:49.760 --> 33:50.900 so many people 33:50.900 --> 33:52.400 living in so many countries 33:52.400 --> 33:54.520 feeling the same symptoms, 33:55.300 --> 33:56.260 your only reaction 33:56.260 --> 33:57.280 is against Cuba? 33:57.940 --> 33:58.900 The only people 33:58.900 --> 34:00.220 the State Department 34:00.220 --> 34:02.120 severed the ties 34:02.120 --> 34:02.920 was with Cuba. 34:04.180 --> 34:04.480 Why? 34:04.600 --> 34:05.840 Do they have any explanation 34:05.840 --> 34:06.940 why they did that? 34:07.300 --> 34:08.320 Why they didn't do it 34:08.320 --> 34:10.180 with foreign countries? 34:10.520 --> 34:11.880 When Havana Syndrome emerged, 34:11.940 --> 34:12.760 as far as the Cubans 34:12.760 --> 34:13.320 were concerned, 34:13.460 --> 34:14.220 it was a case of 34:14.220 --> 34:15.200 here we go again. 34:15.700 --> 34:16.920 I have said as a joke 34:16.920 --> 34:17.640 several times 34:17.640 --> 34:18.760 that when I retire, 34:18.860 --> 34:19.740 I will probably write 34:19.740 --> 34:20.900 a book on arguments 34:20.900 --> 34:22.320 that the Americans 34:22.320 --> 34:23.300 has put forward 34:23.300 --> 34:24.700 to damage 34:24.700 --> 34:26.500 the bilateral relationship. 34:27.300 --> 34:28.080 Every time. 34:28.480 --> 34:29.740 It's like a routine. 34:30.740 --> 34:32.100 Strict sanctions imposed 34:32.100 --> 34:32.800 in retribution 34:32.800 --> 34:33.720 for Havana Syndrome 34:33.720 --> 34:34.840 remain in place. 34:35.740 --> 34:36.400 Biden waited 34:36.400 --> 34:37.200 until he was almost 34:37.200 --> 34:37.800 out of office 34:37.800 --> 34:38.620 to remove Cuba 34:38.620 --> 34:39.740 from the state sponsor 34:39.740 --> 34:40.540 of Terror List. 34:41.300 --> 34:42.540 Then, on day one 34:42.540 --> 34:43.120 of his return 34:43.120 --> 34:43.860 to the presidency, 34:44.220 --> 34:45.380 Trump put them back on. 34:45.940 --> 34:46.380 And it has 34:46.380 --> 34:47.320 serious implications 34:47.320 --> 34:49.160 for Cuba. 34:49.700 --> 34:50.560 It has serious implications 34:50.560 --> 34:51.400 for the United States. 34:51.960 --> 34:53.780 This is retired CIA analyst 34:53.780 --> 34:54.560 Fulton Armstrong. 34:55.600 --> 34:56.840 It is for you too. 34:57.400 --> 34:59.240 Because if you come here 34:59.240 --> 35:00.100 in the United States 35:00.100 --> 35:02.020 on an ESTA visa waiver 35:02.020 --> 35:03.880 and you go to Cuba, 35:04.280 --> 35:05.240 you can't come in 35:05.240 --> 35:06.560 on an ESTA ever again 35:06.560 --> 35:07.540 for the rest of your life 35:07.540 --> 35:09.060 because you've gone 35:09.060 --> 35:10.060 to a terrorist 35:10.060 --> 35:10.980 supporting country. 35:11.500 --> 35:12.300 Armstrong says 35:12.300 --> 35:13.260 the idea that Cuba 35:13.260 --> 35:14.380 had been behind attacks 35:14.380 --> 35:15.400 on U.S. diplomats 35:15.400 --> 35:16.600 never made sense to him. 35:16.880 --> 35:17.900 Even if you do it 35:17.900 --> 35:19.440 like a policeman 35:19.440 --> 35:20.260 and say, 35:20.360 --> 35:20.800 OK, well, 35:21.240 --> 35:22.020 we have a body, 35:22.460 --> 35:23.380 we don't have a weapon, 35:23.840 --> 35:24.700 do we have a motive? 35:26.080 --> 35:27.160 There was no motive. 35:27.740 --> 35:28.480 The Cubans, 35:28.480 --> 35:30.800 especially at that time, 35:30.880 --> 35:32.120 wanted to be very careful 35:32.120 --> 35:33.920 not to shake up 35:33.920 --> 35:35.320 the bilateral relationship 35:35.320 --> 35:36.160 because they knew 35:36.160 --> 35:37.280 that Trump was coming in 35:37.280 --> 35:39.900 looking for a dog to kick 35:39.900 --> 35:41.040 and they didn't want 35:41.040 --> 35:41.620 to be the dog. 35:42.120 --> 35:43.140 He says a Russia connection 35:43.140 --> 35:44.060 didn't make much sense 35:44.060 --> 35:44.680 to him either. 35:45.620 --> 35:46.300 He thought they would 35:46.300 --> 35:47.280 likely be happy about 35:47.280 --> 35:48.140 America and Cuba 35:48.140 --> 35:48.840 making up 35:48.840 --> 35:50.140 since it would make Cuba 35:50.140 --> 35:50.940 less financially 35:50.940 --> 35:52.060 dependent on them. 35:52.060 --> 35:54.520 The Russians had no motive 35:54.520 --> 35:55.300 at all 35:55.300 --> 35:56.320 to sour 35:56.320 --> 35:58.320 Cuban-American 35:58.320 --> 35:59.660 normalization. 36:00.320 --> 36:02.000 They were huge proponents 36:02.000 --> 36:03.120 of normalization. 36:04.020 --> 36:05.440 But if they were doing it, 36:05.800 --> 36:06.880 which is a huge if, 36:07.420 --> 36:08.040 you're saying 36:08.040 --> 36:09.100 that the Cuban government 36:09.100 --> 36:12.100 and the Chinese government 36:12.100 --> 36:13.720 don't know 36:13.720 --> 36:15.060 their own operating turf? 36:15.720 --> 36:16.740 That's a stretch. 36:16.740 --> 36:18.460 As an analyst, 36:18.660 --> 36:19.900 Armstrong spent his career 36:19.900 --> 36:21.020 weighing up intelligence 36:21.020 --> 36:22.260 and possible scenarios. 36:23.180 --> 36:24.740 His guiding principle... 36:24.740 --> 36:25.640 Don't trick yourself 36:25.640 --> 36:26.440 and fall in love 36:26.440 --> 36:27.760 with one particular 36:27.760 --> 36:28.440 interpretation 36:28.440 --> 36:29.400 and scenario. 36:29.840 --> 36:30.420 He worries that 36:30.420 --> 36:31.540 that's what's happened here. 36:32.220 --> 36:33.080 Once people were seeing 36:33.080 --> 36:33.980 this as an attack, 36:34.480 --> 36:35.620 they were on a single-minded 36:35.620 --> 36:36.600 hunt for a weapon. 36:37.020 --> 36:37.740 The biggest beef 36:37.740 --> 36:38.480 isn't that people 36:38.480 --> 36:39.440 politicized it 36:39.440 --> 36:40.880 and that opportunists 36:40.880 --> 36:42.200 in the Trump administration 36:42.200 --> 36:42.780 used it 36:42.780 --> 36:43.760 to shut down 36:43.760 --> 36:44.440 normalization. 36:44.440 --> 36:45.620 but the real problem 36:45.620 --> 36:46.160 was that 36:46.160 --> 36:47.180 if you look for 36:47.180 --> 36:47.940 the wrong thing, 36:48.060 --> 36:48.980 you will not see 36:48.980 --> 36:49.640 the right thing. 36:51.040 --> 36:52.160 But what was 36:52.160 --> 36:52.940 the right thing? 36:53.420 --> 36:54.500 No one could decide. 36:55.200 --> 36:55.940 Was it a weapon? 36:56.620 --> 36:57.560 Was it surveillance? 36:58.440 --> 36:59.420 Some strange 36:59.420 --> 37:00.800 Cuban intelligence mission 37:00.800 --> 37:01.700 that played out 37:01.700 --> 37:02.740 against unfamiliar 37:02.740 --> 37:04.080 and hostile surroundings, 37:04.620 --> 37:06.300 where deafening crickets 37:06.300 --> 37:07.400 get mistaken 37:07.400 --> 37:08.760 for electronic weapons. 37:09.620 --> 37:10.660 Did people's symptoms 37:10.660 --> 37:11.380 trip over 37:11.380 --> 37:12.720 into a functional illness 37:12.720 --> 37:13.420 at some point? 37:13.420 --> 37:15.160 so long ago 37:15.160 --> 37:16.600 that it's impossible now 37:16.600 --> 37:17.660 to see the join. 37:18.540 --> 37:19.660 As Simon Wesley said, 37:20.080 --> 37:20.560 it's like looking 37:20.560 --> 37:21.700 for footprints in the sand 37:21.700 --> 37:22.120 that have been 37:22.120 --> 37:23.380 driven over by a tank. 37:24.380 --> 37:24.980 Adam's worry 37:24.980 --> 37:25.720 was that everyone 37:25.720 --> 37:26.760 had to stop looking. 37:27.980 --> 37:28.580 Watching him 37:28.580 --> 37:29.180 and his dog 37:29.180 --> 37:30.440 entering the colossal 37:30.440 --> 37:31.300 Capitol building 37:31.300 --> 37:32.500 drove home 37:32.500 --> 37:33.960 just what he was up against. 37:34.660 --> 37:35.620 Would he convince others 37:35.620 --> 37:37.220 of what he so strongly believed? 37:37.600 --> 37:38.220 And if so, 37:38.320 --> 37:39.320 would anyone be willing 37:39.320 --> 37:40.660 to do something about it? 37:40.660 --> 37:42.820 It was the CIA 37:42.820 --> 37:44.300 who had pulled out of Cuba 37:44.300 --> 37:45.720 and triggered a mass exodus. 37:46.220 --> 37:46.880 The CIA 37:46.880 --> 37:48.300 who had directed the patients 37:48.300 --> 37:49.580 to a brain injury clinic, 37:50.020 --> 37:50.820 telling those doctors 37:50.820 --> 37:51.680 that they'd been exposed 37:51.680 --> 37:52.280 to something. 37:53.040 --> 37:54.220 Now they were coming out 37:54.220 --> 37:55.320 and saying definitively, 37:55.400 --> 37:56.000 no attack, 37:56.400 --> 37:57.320 no foreign actor, 37:57.560 --> 37:58.120 no weapon. 37:58.900 --> 37:59.900 Many people told us, 37:59.960 --> 38:01.280 you can't easily roll back 38:01.280 --> 38:02.680 a diagnosis like that. 38:02.680 --> 38:04.580 Like the diplomats 38:04.580 --> 38:06.000 exposed to Moscow's signal 38:06.000 --> 38:07.700 or even the young soldiers 38:07.700 --> 38:09.200 abandoned at the Bay of Pigs, 38:09.820 --> 38:10.980 the Havana Syndrome patients 38:10.980 --> 38:12.080 were collateral damage 38:12.080 --> 38:12.900 in a fiasco. 38:13.660 --> 38:14.600 It was down to them 38:14.600 --> 38:15.660 to pick up the pieces 38:15.660 --> 38:17.560 or to try to work out 38:17.560 --> 38:18.660 the meaning behind it all. 38:19.520 --> 38:21.180 I thought about Dr. Andrews. 38:21.520 --> 38:22.640 He was the CIA doctor 38:22.640 --> 38:23.360 who was the first 38:23.360 --> 38:24.940 to take Adam's cable seriously, 38:25.580 --> 38:26.360 only to wind up 38:26.360 --> 38:27.380 becoming sick himself 38:27.380 --> 38:28.600 after travelling to Havana 38:28.600 --> 38:29.140 to help. 38:29.900 --> 38:30.720 He told me about 38:30.720 --> 38:31.960 what life is like for him now 38:31.960 --> 38:32.760 while making tea 38:32.760 --> 38:33.500 in his kitchen. 38:35.620 --> 38:36.700 Problems with balance, 38:37.300 --> 38:38.940 headaches, nausea, 38:40.020 --> 38:41.080 visual problems 38:41.080 --> 38:43.580 are still a little better 38:43.580 --> 38:44.960 but still bad enough 38:44.960 --> 38:46.260 that I have trouble reading, 38:46.860 --> 38:47.580 using a computer 38:47.580 --> 38:48.540 for prolonged times. 38:49.380 --> 38:50.400 It really impairs 38:50.400 --> 38:51.220 a lot of things 38:51.220 --> 38:52.860 that you want to do. 38:53.100 --> 38:54.120 Can I get through a day? 38:54.260 --> 38:54.960 I'm kind of getting 38:54.960 --> 38:55.720 through today. 38:56.480 --> 38:57.220 How do you think 38:57.220 --> 38:58.600 this day now, 38:58.700 --> 38:59.700 talking for several hours 38:59.700 --> 39:00.360 will affect you? 39:00.360 --> 39:04.560 I'll have a headache tonight. 39:05.200 --> 39:06.320 The nausea is already 39:06.320 --> 39:06.940 building up. 39:07.620 --> 39:08.400 I won't be able 39:08.400 --> 39:09.260 to focus at all 39:09.260 --> 39:10.480 and tomorrow 39:10.480 --> 39:11.680 I'll be exhausted. 39:12.240 --> 39:13.060 It didn't make you 39:13.060 --> 39:13.740 reconsidered 39:13.740 --> 39:15.400 or consider not doing it? 39:16.100 --> 39:16.700 Yeah. 39:16.900 --> 39:17.320 It's like, 39:17.400 --> 39:17.720 why bother? 39:18.300 --> 39:19.320 I know I'm gonna get sick 39:19.320 --> 39:24.900 but you have some duty 39:24.900 --> 39:29.520 to counter 39:29.520 --> 39:34.560 some of the noise out there 39:34.560 --> 39:35.560 that this is all 39:35.560 --> 39:37.260 a bunch of baloney. 39:37.260 --> 39:39.380 You need to step out there 39:39.380 --> 39:39.620 and say, 39:39.820 --> 39:40.320 excuse me, 39:40.380 --> 39:41.740 but there is something here 39:41.740 --> 39:45.060 that can't just be written off. 39:45.440 --> 39:46.380 To these patients, 39:46.380 --> 39:47.500 it seems like 39:47.500 --> 39:48.080 that's exactly 39:48.080 --> 39:48.760 what the CIA 39:48.760 --> 39:49.440 are now trying 39:49.440 --> 39:50.220 to do with them. 39:50.840 --> 39:51.920 To just look the other way 39:51.920 --> 39:53.280 and hope it all dies down. 39:53.640 --> 39:54.540 Have you always 39:54.540 --> 39:55.300 kind of remained 39:55.300 --> 39:57.880 steadfast in it 39:57.880 --> 39:58.860 or have you ever 39:58.860 --> 40:00.040 doubted yourself? 40:01.060 --> 40:01.380 You know, 40:01.420 --> 40:02.360 in any disease, 40:02.480 --> 40:03.020 is there also 40:03.020 --> 40:04.180 a psychological component? 40:05.380 --> 40:06.060 When you have 40:06.060 --> 40:06.760 a chronic condition, 40:06.820 --> 40:07.460 when you can't work, 40:07.500 --> 40:08.160 when you're disabled, 40:08.620 --> 40:09.940 does that also 40:09.940 --> 40:11.120 then affect 40:11.120 --> 40:11.940 your symptoms? 40:12.120 --> 40:12.780 Of course it does. 40:13.420 --> 40:14.180 That doesn't mean 40:14.180 --> 40:14.900 you made it up. 40:18.340 --> 40:19.380 Back in Washington, 40:19.880 --> 40:20.760 four hours later, 40:21.080 --> 40:22.080 Adam does reappear 40:22.080 --> 40:23.120 a few blocks away, 40:23.860 --> 40:24.380 having used 40:24.380 --> 40:25.800 the underground trolley system 40:25.800 --> 40:26.300 connecting 40:26.300 --> 40:27.480 the government buildings. 40:28.140 --> 40:28.980 How are you doing? 40:29.200 --> 40:29.880 I always forget 40:29.880 --> 40:30.980 about the topography here. 40:32.300 --> 40:33.800 Adam seems suddenly energized, 40:34.460 --> 40:35.640 as alert and animated 40:35.640 --> 40:36.840 as I've ever seen him. 40:37.580 --> 40:37.980 It's funny, 40:38.040 --> 40:38.620 if you wear a suit, 40:38.680 --> 40:39.280 you can kind of go 40:39.280 --> 40:40.060 anywhere around here. 40:40.280 --> 40:41.020 They don't stop you. 40:41.680 --> 40:42.080 It's like, 40:42.280 --> 40:42.700 hello. 40:42.700 --> 40:44.540 I don't think 40:44.540 --> 40:44.900 you should be 40:44.900 --> 40:45.680 letting me through here. 40:46.360 --> 40:47.000 In the Capitol, 40:47.240 --> 40:47.900 Adam had been put 40:47.900 --> 40:48.360 in a room 40:48.360 --> 40:49.380 with court reporters 40:49.380 --> 40:49.980 and lawyers 40:49.980 --> 40:51.000 who took him through 40:51.000 --> 40:52.120 his version of events 40:52.120 --> 40:52.880 beat by beat. 40:53.580 --> 40:54.100 At the end, 40:54.200 --> 40:55.160 Adam signed a document 40:55.160 --> 40:56.260 saying he wouldn't 40:56.260 --> 40:57.080 discuss anything 40:57.080 --> 40:57.900 that had been said. 40:58.400 --> 40:58.900 Let's see if we can 40:58.900 --> 40:59.760 find a bench in here. 41:01.240 --> 41:02.220 Way back when, 41:02.300 --> 41:03.800 when I was having 41:03.800 --> 41:04.580 secret meetings 41:04.580 --> 41:06.480 with intelligent staff members, 41:06.600 --> 41:07.200 I was meeting them 41:07.200 --> 41:08.020 on these benches. 41:08.920 --> 41:09.640 We were letting them 41:09.640 --> 41:10.420 know what was happening 41:10.420 --> 41:11.240 because the building 41:11.240 --> 41:12.180 was lying to them 41:12.180 --> 41:14.380 or wasn't being forthcoming. 41:15.380 --> 41:16.080 I would say lying 41:16.080 --> 41:16.700 through a mission. 41:17.400 --> 41:18.820 Those were off-book meetings, 41:19.400 --> 41:19.940 ones they didn't 41:19.940 --> 41:20.980 want a paper trail of. 41:21.600 --> 41:22.560 Now he's delivered 41:22.560 --> 41:23.820 his story for the record. 41:24.600 --> 41:25.540 So how do you feel 41:25.540 --> 41:27.200 about what you just did? 41:28.080 --> 41:28.480 Um, 41:28.640 --> 41:30.220 I will say that 41:30.220 --> 41:32.640 I'm glad we did it. 41:33.640 --> 41:34.300 I don't know 41:34.300 --> 41:34.600 what they're going 41:34.600 --> 41:35.040 to do with it. 41:35.180 --> 41:35.520 I don't know 41:35.520 --> 41:36.280 what the plan is, 41:36.400 --> 41:36.860 um, 41:37.420 --> 41:38.720 but now it's 41:38.720 --> 41:39.620 officially on the record 41:39.620 --> 41:41.200 so people can use it, 41:41.260 --> 41:41.880 access it, 41:42.100 --> 41:42.680 manipulate it, 41:42.740 --> 41:43.200 whatever they want 41:43.200 --> 41:43.800 to do with it, 41:44.020 --> 41:44.420 um, 41:44.560 --> 41:45.280 going forward, 41:45.400 --> 41:47.220 but it's present now. 41:47.300 --> 41:47.640 It's something 41:47.640 --> 41:49.020 that people can refer back to. 41:50.060 --> 41:51.460 Adam still has his backpack, 41:52.000 --> 41:52.820 but he's passed on 41:52.820 --> 41:53.600 whatever information 41:53.600 --> 41:54.300 it was carrying, 41:54.820 --> 41:55.400 and he seems 41:55.400 --> 41:56.260 somehow lighter. 41:56.620 --> 41:57.560 I just don't feel like 41:57.560 --> 41:58.580 there's anything left 41:58.580 --> 41:59.480 for me to push 41:59.480 --> 42:00.400 for anymore, 42:00.980 --> 42:01.320 you know? 42:01.940 --> 42:02.520 And so 42:02.520 --> 42:03.760 it felt like 42:03.760 --> 42:04.580 our big push 42:04.580 --> 42:05.260 was getting it 42:05.260 --> 42:07.020 to where we're at now, 42:07.240 --> 42:08.120 and I just don't know 42:08.120 --> 42:08.680 that there's much 42:08.680 --> 42:09.740 we can do to impact. 42:10.300 --> 42:11.260 It feels like 42:11.260 --> 42:11.960 the last piece 42:11.960 --> 42:12.680 of the puzzle to me. 42:12.880 --> 42:13.480 Like, I just kind of 42:13.480 --> 42:15.360 have that voice 42:15.360 --> 42:16.240 deep down that's like, 42:16.300 --> 42:16.880 okay, that's it. 42:17.000 --> 42:17.320 You can, 42:17.480 --> 42:18.680 you can let it go now. 42:19.060 --> 42:19.920 You feel like you're done. 42:20.380 --> 42:21.220 It feels like I'm done. 42:21.600 --> 42:21.760 Yeah. 42:22.800 --> 42:23.880 So that's it, yeah. 42:25.040 --> 42:25.820 That's all she wrote. 42:25.820 --> 42:32.140 The Congressional Inquiry 42:32.140 --> 42:32.960 eventually heard 42:32.960 --> 42:34.280 from 48 witnesses 42:34.280 --> 42:35.340 and received 42:35.340 --> 42:37.300 3,400 pages 42:37.300 --> 42:38.640 of whistleblower documents. 42:39.440 --> 42:41.160 The findings amounted 42:41.160 --> 42:42.020 to a vindication 42:42.020 --> 42:43.440 of some of Adam's claims. 42:44.840 --> 42:45.760 They concluded 42:45.760 --> 42:47.440 that the intelligence community 42:47.440 --> 42:48.460 attempted to shape 42:48.460 --> 42:50.040 their 2023 assessment, 42:50.980 --> 42:51.960 cherry-picking facts 42:51.960 --> 42:52.480 to create 42:52.480 --> 42:53.660 a politically palatable 42:53.660 --> 42:54.340 conclusion 42:54.340 --> 42:55.680 that was dubious 42:55.680 --> 42:56.240 at best 42:56.240 --> 42:56.980 and misleading 42:56.980 --> 42:57.720 at worst. 42:58.860 --> 42:59.840 The inquiry said 42:59.840 --> 43:00.860 intelligence had placed 43:00.860 --> 43:01.360 hurdles 43:01.360 --> 43:02.800 on who could testify 43:02.800 --> 43:03.520 at the inquiry 43:03.520 --> 43:05.200 and said that 43:05.200 --> 43:06.080 those who spoke 43:06.080 --> 43:07.080 did so despite 43:07.080 --> 43:08.500 fear of retaliation. 43:09.200 --> 43:10.620 Congressman Rick Crawford 43:10.620 --> 43:11.780 vowed that the report 43:11.780 --> 43:12.600 was just the beginning 43:12.600 --> 43:13.160 of a fight 43:13.160 --> 43:14.200 to get better answers 43:14.200 --> 43:15.580 from the intelligence community. 43:16.580 --> 43:17.720 If they didn't outright 43:17.720 --> 43:18.740 declare a cover-up 43:18.740 --> 43:19.620 over Havana Syndrome, 43:20.260 --> 43:21.260 they came close. 43:23.100 --> 43:24.000 Adam had done 43:24.000 --> 43:25.120 what he set out to do. 43:25.680 --> 43:26.280 But if he thought 43:26.280 --> 43:26.860 it was over, 43:27.260 --> 43:28.280 he was kidding himself. 43:29.220 --> 43:29.980 Around the world, 43:30.160 --> 43:30.900 courts are clogged 43:30.900 --> 43:31.300 with people 43:31.300 --> 43:32.440 who tried to fight back, 43:32.980 --> 43:34.060 against a bad loan, 43:34.540 --> 43:35.640 an unfair dismissal, 43:36.300 --> 43:37.760 and found the system 43:37.760 --> 43:38.540 wouldn't help them. 43:39.100 --> 43:39.820 Most give up. 43:40.800 --> 43:41.660 The ones who don't 43:41.660 --> 43:42.360 can get dragged 43:42.360 --> 43:43.800 into an endless spiral, 43:44.200 --> 43:45.240 where one injustice 43:45.240 --> 43:45.920 breeds another. 43:47.860 --> 43:48.700 Adam and the Havana 43:48.700 --> 43:49.340 Helmet Club 43:49.340 --> 43:49.860 are formidable, 43:50.580 --> 43:51.560 but they're up against 43:51.560 --> 43:53.120 forces far more powerful, 43:53.120 --> 43:54.900 with ways to stop them 43:54.900 --> 43:56.260 that they can't yet imagine. 43:57.800 --> 43:58.980 We did catch up 43:58.980 --> 43:59.340 with Adam 43:59.340 --> 44:00.460 one more time recently. 44:01.360 --> 44:02.500 He's now putting his faith 44:02.500 --> 44:03.720 in the mercurial team 44:03.720 --> 44:04.220 of the new 44:04.220 --> 44:05.240 Trump administration, 44:05.800 --> 44:07.160 with its revolving door 44:07.160 --> 44:07.800 of staff. 44:08.300 --> 44:08.940 But he says 44:08.940 --> 44:10.020 a major announcement 44:10.020 --> 44:10.980 is in the works. 44:10.980 --> 44:12.800 There has never been 44:12.800 --> 44:14.320 the mountain 44:14.320 --> 44:15.500 of evidence 44:15.500 --> 44:16.820 that I know 44:16.820 --> 44:17.680 currently exists. 44:18.880 --> 44:20.280 The truth will prevail. 44:20.420 --> 44:21.520 We've always stood on that. 44:21.640 --> 44:22.480 Because the one thing 44:22.480 --> 44:23.400 that has never changed 44:23.400 --> 44:24.200 in all these years 44:24.200 --> 44:24.940 is the truth. 44:25.480 --> 44:26.400 And we'll keep pushing 44:26.400 --> 44:26.860 on that 44:26.860 --> 44:28.200 until it finally comes out. 44:28.960 --> 44:29.980 He's talking about 44:29.980 --> 44:31.200 irrefutable evidence 44:31.200 --> 44:32.020 of something that can 44:32.020 --> 44:33.220 definitively explain 44:33.220 --> 44:33.860 his symptoms. 44:34.680 --> 44:35.460 He says the question 44:35.460 --> 44:36.140 that remains 44:36.140 --> 44:37.020 is whether anyone 44:37.020 --> 44:37.520 is willing 44:37.520 --> 44:38.940 to bring this evidence 44:38.940 --> 44:39.520 to light. 44:39.520 --> 44:40.420 you know, 44:40.500 --> 44:41.060 they can lie 44:41.060 --> 44:41.600 and cover up 44:41.600 --> 44:42.120 and do everything 44:42.120 --> 44:42.580 they want, 44:42.700 --> 44:43.840 but it will not hold up 44:43.840 --> 44:44.900 to the scrutiny of time. 44:45.140 --> 44:46.180 And I've got all the time 44:46.180 --> 44:46.600 in the world. 44:54.840 --> 44:56.520 From BBC Radio 4, 44:56.740 --> 44:58.160 this is Havana Helmet Club. 44:58.600 --> 44:59.940 Listen to the latest episodes 44:59.940 --> 45:01.500 first on BBC Sounds. 45:02.020 --> 45:03.120 If you want to be notified 45:03.120 --> 45:04.780 when the latest episode drops, 45:05.240 --> 45:06.220 make sure you're subscribed 45:06.220 --> 45:07.620 to Havana Helmet Club 45:07.620 --> 45:08.720 on BBC Sounds 45:08.720 --> 45:10.120 and have push notifications 45:10.120 --> 45:10.900 turned on. 45:11.380 --> 45:12.240 Havana Helmet Club 45:12.240 --> 45:13.160 is written and presented 45:13.160 --> 45:14.100 by Sam Bunke 45:14.100 --> 45:15.040 and Jennifer Ford 45:15.040 --> 45:16.780 and edited by Guy Crossman. 45:16.980 --> 45:17.740 Our story editor 45:17.740 --> 45:18.480 is Mike Olive 45:18.480 --> 45:19.260 and our producer 45:19.260 --> 45:20.200 is Larry Ryan. 45:20.680 --> 45:21.220 Jesse Baker 45:21.220 --> 45:22.740 is our editorial advisor. 45:23.520 --> 45:24.280 Additional editing 45:24.280 --> 45:25.600 by Simon Pearce. 45:26.120 --> 45:26.860 Original music 45:26.860 --> 45:28.040 by Tom Pintons. 45:28.540 --> 45:29.040 Sound design 45:29.040 --> 45:30.040 by Meryn Royards 45:30.040 --> 45:30.760 and mix 45:30.760 --> 45:31.620 by Joe McDonnell. 45:32.360 --> 45:33.060 Commissioning editor 45:33.060 --> 45:33.700 for the BBC 45:33.700 --> 45:34.940 is Dylan Haskins. 45:35.440 --> 45:36.460 Assistant commissioners 45:36.460 --> 45:37.320 are Sarah Green 45:37.320 --> 45:38.700 and Natasha Johansson. 45:39.180 --> 45:40.020 Havana Helmet Club 45:40.020 --> 45:41.000 is a Yarn production 45:41.000 --> 45:42.660 for BBC Radio 4 45:42.660 --> 45:43.840 and BBC Sounds. 45:44.720 --> 45:45.420 Script advisor 45:45.420 --> 45:46.160 is John Mullen. 45:46.860 --> 45:47.480 Archive help 45:47.480 --> 45:48.320 from Miriam Walsh 45:48.320 --> 45:49.020 and Helen Carr. 45:49.640 --> 45:50.780 With special thanks 45:50.780 --> 45:51.720 to Gabby Hornsby 45:51.720 --> 45:52.700 and Seema Karner. 45:52.700 --> 45:54.260 Thanks also to 45:54.260 --> 45:54.840 Media Milk, 45:55.060 --> 45:55.760 Ed Augustin, 45:56.140 --> 45:56.900 Michelle McCafferty 45:56.900 --> 45:57.780 and Stephanie Ford. 45:58.520 --> 45:59.460 And special thanks 45:59.460 --> 46:00.480 to Ronan Percival, 46:00.840 --> 46:01.700 James McSweeney, 46:02.220 --> 46:03.080 Conan Fagan, 46:03.300 --> 46:03.960 Kieran Mooney, 46:04.460 --> 46:05.120 Ronan Lavery, 46:05.560 --> 46:06.240 Hugh O'Donnell 46:06.240 --> 46:07.540 and Stuart O'Sullivan. 46:09.620 --> 46:10.880 Havana Helmet Club 46:10.880 --> 46:11.420 was edited 46:11.420 --> 46:12.620 by Guy Crossman. 46:13.080 --> 46:13.740 He's the editor 46:13.740 --> 46:14.280 we mentioned 46:14.280 --> 46:15.380 in the first episode 46:15.380 --> 46:17.080 who had a glass shatter 46:17.080 --> 46:17.540 in his hand 46:17.540 --> 46:18.180 one afternoon 46:18.180 --> 46:19.200 in Shabba's bush. 46:20.480 --> 46:21.740 Guy died in June. 46:21.740 --> 46:23.400 He was a good friend 46:23.400 --> 46:24.800 and a joy to work with 46:24.800 --> 46:26.040 and he's sorely missed. 46:36.160 --> 46:38.200 In today's digital world, 46:38.460 --> 46:39.640 it's easier than ever 46:39.640 --> 46:41.360 to invade someone's life 46:41.360 --> 46:43.220 and far harder to escape. 46:43.540 --> 46:45.140 Anyone determined enough 46:45.140 --> 46:45.840 to do harm 46:45.840 --> 46:47.380 can find a way to do harm. 46:47.800 --> 46:48.880 I'm Carol Cadwallader, 46:49.120 --> 46:50.400 an investigative journalist. 46:50.400 --> 46:51.540 In this podcast, 46:51.540 --> 46:52.520 I follow the story 46:52.520 --> 46:52.980 of Hannah 46:52.980 --> 46:53.760 whose life 46:53.760 --> 46:54.980 was turned upside down 46:54.980 --> 46:56.360 by an anonymous stalker. 46:56.480 --> 46:57.320 I no longer know 46:57.320 --> 46:58.160 who I can trust. 46:58.460 --> 46:59.100 What began 46:59.100 --> 47:00.640 as one woman's nightmare 47:00.640 --> 47:02.200 became a chilling investigation 47:02.200 --> 47:03.400 into deception, 47:03.780 --> 47:04.260 control 47:04.260 --> 47:05.520 and the faceless power 47:05.520 --> 47:06.160 of the internet. 47:07.180 --> 47:07.740 Stalked. 47:08.080 --> 47:09.720 Listen on BBC Sounds.