WEBVTT

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts.

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You're about to listen to Havana Helmet Club.

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New episodes will be released weekly, wherever you get your podcasts.

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But if you're in the UK, you can listen to the latest episode a week early, first on BBC Sounds.

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Just to let you know, this episode contains very strong language and may not be suitable for all audiences.

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When I was first in touch with Adam, he sent me a photo.

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We were communicating on a cloak-and-dagger messaging app called Wicca,

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which is partly funded by the CIA, and even features a setting called Burn-On Reading.

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The photo shows Adam standing with former CIA director Mike Pompeo, holding a certificate and a medal.

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He looks back on the few months around when this photo was taken as a special time.

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It was very strange to have all the support finally.

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It felt like we had this golden window of, like, six months where everything was really going in our favour.

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On January the 9th, 2018, at CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia,

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Pompeo presented Adam with the Extraordinary Service medallion, along with a certificate.

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The certificate stated plainly that Adam had been targeted by unknown forces and subjected to unprecedented, damaging attacks.

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The certificate even seemed to thank him for pushing the agency to take notice by managing the situation in Cuba

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and stepping up into roles far beyond his pay grade and experience.

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His parents came and got a tour of the private CIA museum.

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The agency says this museum charts its rich history and commitment to the art of intelligence.

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They keep various spy gadgets, a model of the compound where bin Laden was killed.

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There's also a large wall remembering the CIA's great failures in Cuba.

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All actions ordered by presidents who prized the CIA's ability to keep secrets,

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to do work in such a way that they could deny it ever happened.

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All along, Adam has felt people trying to deny the truth about what happened to him,

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people trying to gaslight him,

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even down to those foreign agents he believes were following him

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and rearranging things in his apartment in Philadelphia.

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What does that do to us?

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Someone's been in my place and they've moved my shit around.

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Well, you just look crazy again.

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Now you've said you're crazy.

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You know, people say you're crazy.

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You've come out with a far-out claim of some sort.

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You've already got shredded out.

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Now you're saying people are following you and someone's been in your house in the US.

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It just, all it does is it just pulls away from your credibility.

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In children's stories,

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sometimes the hero wakes up and wonders if everything had been a dream

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until they find something.

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A nutcracker toy,

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a bell from Santa's reindeer,

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a silver dollop with a bullet lodged inside.

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Some talisman that reassures them that at least some part of it must have really happened.

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Adam sent me that photo from this day to prove his identity.

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But I wonder if he returns to this photograph and the medal and the certificate from the CIA

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because it proves something to him, too.

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He might have been suffering from a life-changing illness.

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It's a very inconvenient document that they've handed us that says we were victims of attacks.

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I bet they wish they could take that shit off me now, but they can't.

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I'm Sam Bungie.

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I'm Jennifer Ford, and this is Havana Helmet Club, Episode 7, America's Backyard.

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For State Department Medical Director Charles Rosenfarb,

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2018 got off to a rocky start.

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He felt Cuba hardliners had attacked him in the Senate over his handling of the crisis in Havana.

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And though he thought doctors at UPenn were superb and the problem in Cuba appeared to be contained,

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he did worry that they hadn't seen the last of Havana syndrome.

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We kept wondering if it's something that's going to happen elsewhere.

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And we started to put in mechanisms to capture that, you know,

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reach that information to our medical people around the world.

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Anything unusual, you get back to us, let us know.

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In April 2018, a report came in.

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A government worker in Guangzhou, China, complaining of symptoms like the patients from Havana.

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We knew we'd better take a close look at this right away.

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Catherine Werner began hearing strange sounds in her apartment in late 2017,

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after the story in Havana became public.

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At first, she dismissed the symptoms, but eventually her mother convinced her to seek help.

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The State Department flew Werner back to the U.S.,

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where the UPenn doctors could examine her along with the patients from Havana.

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And the head of the team at Penn, I remember taking the phone call from him,

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and he said, you know, her story and the MRI findings is exactly like those other people.

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I said, well, OK, now we have a second location.

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Adam, patient zero, remembers that when she arrived at UPenn, it was all very secretive.

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I got word about a week and a half after she'd arrived, and they said, no one can talk to her.

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She has to go through all of this battery of exams.

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She cannot know anything from any of you, because they didn't want us to sway any of her tests.

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And it wasn't until the day that they had finished everything,

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and they were meeting with the government to confirm her case,

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that I got introduced to her when we went to lunch, and I was like,

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first off, you're not crazy.

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This is real.

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I know exactly what you're going through.

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And she just broke down.

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And it's a relief, you know.

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This had not been the experience of that CIA agent in Moscow, Mark Polymeropoulos.

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He says that earlier that same year,

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agency medical staff disagreed with his theory that he'd been attacked,

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finding more mundane explanations for his symptoms,

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and they declined to refer him to UPenn.

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But the US government seemed to be on board with this new case in China.

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We had an incident in Guangzhou that was,

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that the medical indications are very similar and entirely consistent with

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the medical indications that have taken place to Americans working in Cuba.

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On May 23rd, Mike Pompeo went before Congress.

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He'd just left the CIA for a new position as Secretary of State.

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We announced it to the workforce while we slept here last night.

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We have medical teams that are moving to be on the ground there.

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We are working to figure out what took place,

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both in Havana and now in China as well.

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The Chinese foreign minister didn't just deny any involvement.

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He called the attacks themselves inconceivable.

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But the US issued a health alert,

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warning staff in China to beware of strange noises and unusual symptoms.

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And officials speculated,

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was this China?

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China working with Russia?

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Russia has also denied any involvement in this story.

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To Democratic Senator Tim Kaine,

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the new case suggested they were looking for an enemy

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with the means to inflict damage on American personnel anywhere in the world.

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And again, happening in one country leads to a set of hypotheses,

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you've got to run down.

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But now happening in a second country really raises the stakes,

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I think, in terms of trying to get to the bottom of it.

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Guangzhou is classified as a super city or megalopolis.

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Its airport can handle 80 million passengers a year

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and it's one of the richest places in China.

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In Havana, it takes all morning to download Western news

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over an unstable internet connection

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and there are hours-long queues for groceries.

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In contrast, for State Department employee Mark Lenzi,

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Guangzhou felt like the future.

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We had a great life there.

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In late 2017, Lenzi was one of Guangzhou's 14 million residents

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and part of the tight-knit staff of around 130 at the U.S. Embassy.

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He was living with his family in a high-rise apartment building.

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His infant son slept in a crib

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next to a large picture window overlooking Guangzhou.

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And it was there, standing by the crib

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and looking out over the vast city,

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that Lenzi says his wife first heard the sound.

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He says his wife was puzzled by this sound

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and couldn't figure out where it was coming from.

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She said, yeah, I texted the upstairs neighbour.

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Are you dropping something, like, over our bedroom?

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She's like, no, no one's been in there.

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I haven't dropped anything, like, you know.

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And my wife's like, what the hell could it be making that sound?

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Soon, Lenzi began to hear it too.

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I heard that same sound probably on three or four different occasions.

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Really kind of sharp.

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Lenzi and his wife's new headaches and waves of lightheadedness crept up on them.

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And at first they put them down to Guangzhou's crisis-level smog.

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But then, to their horror, strange things happened to their children.

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My wife was giving my two kids a bath.

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But at the same time she heard the sounds, instantly, okay, imagine this,

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both of my kids had bloody, blood just started streaming from their noses.

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He began sleeping late and sensing he was off his game.

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Working on something technical at the embassy one day,

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Lenzi's colleague teased him about word recall.

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He said, oh, well, you, yeah, you just turned 40, right?

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I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's because I'm over 40, ha, ha, ha.

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But inside I'm thinking, this is not right.

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That's when I knew that this was more serious than just smog.

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Like, wait a minute, something else is going on here.

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What is going on here?

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It turns out that Lenzi has a very particular set of skills.

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Much of his job is classified,

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but he describes himself as a foremost American expert on Russia.

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He's also an engineer.

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Months before the idea of a Russian microwaves attack

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was being discussed widely in the media,

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Lenzi came to this view himself.

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To get my badge, my federal badge

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for the Diplomatic Security Service who I work for,

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a large component of that four-month training

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is microwave detection and methods and things like that.

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It's what I do for a living, Sam.

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So yes, if it sounds like I know what I'm talking about here,

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it is because I know what I'm talking about here.

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He'd been thinking about those strange sounds

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that he and his wife had been hearing over their son's crib.

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They struggled to describe them.

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Finally, they took a trip to a hardware store to buy materials.

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I got a sheet of glass and I got these kind of lighter weight marbles,

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if you will, that wouldn't break the glass.

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And then kind of we replicated as best we could with the sound.

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To me, this recording sounded quite a lot like what it is,

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a marble rolling around a funnel and dropping on glass.

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But this was Lenzi's attempt to recreate what he believed was the Frey effect,

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those sounds that occur only inside your head,

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that Alan Frey himself called sonic delusions.

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It would explain why Lenzi's neighbour heard nothing,

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just like Adams in Havana.

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To Lenzi, it suggested his apartment was being targeted with pulsed microwaves.

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And if that was true, he had a suspect list of one.

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The government of Russia.

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And you don't have to be the wizard of id to figure that out.

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Over the following weeks, Lenzi says his symptoms got worse

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and people at work told him he was acting testy.

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Truth of the matter was, I was irritable at that time.

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I absolutely was.

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That's a classic post-concussion symptom.

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This mirrors Adam's story too.

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Lenzi got pulled into a meeting to address this strange behaviour.

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He says it's called a written counselling session.

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Kind of a big deal in the diplomatic world.

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You know, if that's in your file,

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you have a hard time becoming ambassador and things like this.

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What Lenzi didn't know was that just days earlier,

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Catherine Werner, that first victim in China,

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had been flown home after complaining of her own symptoms.

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When he finally did hear, about six weeks later,

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Lenzi was hopping mad.

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I was just telling anyone that would listen.

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I was firing out these email blasts to my colleagues saying,

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you should have been warned too.

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I should have been warned.

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This wouldn't be the first time Lenzi felt let down by the State Department.

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Twice, he felt, they'd shrugged off leaks of his personal data.

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But he says what made things worse about China

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was that he believes Catherine Werner had been trying to get word of warning

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back to him and his family.

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My neighbour, on three different occasions,

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went to the government and said,

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notify, please, my neighbours, but especially the Lenzi family.

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They live right next to me.

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They're in danger.

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Please let them know.

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Oh, yes, yes, yes, we will.

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We'll let them know.

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And they never did.

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I wondered, had Lenzi done anything

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to run down his microwave attack theory

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while he was in China?

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Did you ever get anyone

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to come and check for radiation or anything like that?

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No, I tried.

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I begged.

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But just because my bosses didn't do it

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doesn't mean that it was not done.

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He's cryptic about who took this alleged reading

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and what was done about it at the time.

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It's important to the story

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because of what he will do with it later.

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But while still in China,

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Lenzi gave an interview to the New York Times.

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In the article, published on June 7th,

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the Times shared details from an all-staff email

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Lenzi sent around the Guangzhou embassy

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in which he accused the State Department

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of knowing full well that his neighbour,

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Werner, was not an isolated case.

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Had I been medevaced in a halfway timely manner,

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my kids, especially my kids' injuries,

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but my injuries as well and my wife's injuries

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would not have been nearly as bad as they are.

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Lenzi told us doctors in the US

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would eventually find that his youngest child,

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the son who slept in that crib,

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suffers nausea during certain balance exercises

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and that his eyes track differently.

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There is, of course, no way to know for sure

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whether this would still be the case

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had his family got out of China sooner.

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But we do know that when the State Department

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sent out a medical team,

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they screened more than 100 staff

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flying 15 back to the US for further tests.

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Among that 15 were Lenzi and his wife,

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who arrived at UPenn almost two months

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after the State Department found out

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about Catherine Werner.

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How would that make you feel?

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It's outrageous. Out-rageous.

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But it's here that the story of the China cases

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runs aground.

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For all the uncertainties surrounding

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a possible cause of the illnesses in Cuba,

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Adam was followed to Miami by many others

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and the doctors began to see

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what they thought was a pattern.

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The China patients never got that kind of reassurance.

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The State Department sent the Cuba patients

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to UPenn only after triaging

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and identifying them as what they believed

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to be genuine, unexplained cases.

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Rosenfarb says the China situation was messier.

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And we kept pressing pen, like, so is it the same?

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Do they have something similar?

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In the end, we found what we believe were explanations

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for the symptoms of all that could not be treated

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to Havana syndrome.

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Our process, in our minds,

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eliminated those people as having,

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being victimized by the same thing.

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On reflection, Rosenfarb wonders

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whether sending the patient straight to Penn

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was such a good idea.

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One of the big regrets I have

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is that we sent these people

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directly to the location

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where they knew, they'd heard

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that colleagues from Havana had gone to

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who had this, you know, non-natural event

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that caused some potential brain injury.

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So that, of course, is what they were thinking they had.

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And Penn is a brain injury center.

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So this is what they were focused on.

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He worries, too, that it gave the team at Penn

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the impression that the State Department

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had already drawn conclusions about these patients.

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And gave the doctors at Penn,

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thought, well, if these guys,

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they're being referred to us,

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just like the Havana people,

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the State Department must know

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that this was the same thing.

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Rosenfarb says that in reality,

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the State Department had not made hard assumptions

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about these patients.

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He says there'd been a low threshold

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for bringing people back from China.

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He didn't think it was the time to be picky.

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We're trying to manage a tough situation

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where people are scared,

16:51.780 --> 16:54.260
and it wasn't a time to sort out.

16:54.640 --> 16:55.780
So we're very inclusive.

16:56.060 --> 16:58.840
If there's any suspicion that they've had something,

16:59.180 --> 17:00.040
they're part of the cohort.

17:01.500 --> 17:03.200
Out of those 16 cases,

17:03.440 --> 17:06.420
the State Department only ever confirmed one as genuine.

17:06.420 --> 17:09.860
that is, China patient zero, Catherine Werner,

17:10.520 --> 17:12.840
which left the other 15 in limbo.

17:13.380 --> 17:14.840
They could not be convinced

17:14.840 --> 17:17.020
that they did not have Havana syndrome.

17:17.700 --> 17:20.860
So that led to a lot of discontent among patients.

17:20.860 --> 17:25.980
Mark Lenzi doesn't buy it.

17:26.440 --> 17:27.620
He thinks it's all political.

17:28.400 --> 17:30.540
Now this had become a hard problem to handle,

17:30.720 --> 17:32.300
the government was trying to shut it down.

17:32.820 --> 17:34.120
Cuba was always much easier.

17:34.500 --> 17:37.100
It was always much easier for the U.S. government

17:37.100 --> 17:38.240
to blame Cuba,

17:38.660 --> 17:40.380
to kick out some Cuban diplomats,

17:40.540 --> 17:42.240
to posture and act tough.

17:42.400 --> 17:43.060
But with China,

17:43.140 --> 17:44.840
it's a completely different beast.

17:44.840 --> 17:48.240
You can't just close our embassy in Beijing and Guangzhou.

17:48.320 --> 17:50.360
These are literally the most important missions

17:50.360 --> 17:51.980
for us in the world, right?

17:52.060 --> 17:53.240
Our relationship with China

17:53.240 --> 17:54.840
is one of the most important,

17:54.900 --> 17:55.960
if not the most important,

17:56.040 --> 17:58.320
bilateral relationship in all of the world.

17:59.220 --> 18:00.480
Adam felt the same way.

18:00.820 --> 18:03.520
He was suspicious of this new two-tier system.

18:04.280 --> 18:05.240
But that's the thing.

18:05.380 --> 18:07.140
If you weren't hurt in Havana,

18:07.500 --> 18:10.160
it doesn't seem like care is forthcoming for people.

18:10.700 --> 18:11.900
You know, they're getting people care,

18:12.000 --> 18:14.220
but they're not getting access to these programs

18:14.220 --> 18:16.100
that I pushed for and helped set up,

18:16.440 --> 18:18.740
which is there for these people.

18:18.960 --> 18:20.500
That was the reason for doing it.

18:20.700 --> 18:24.340
And, yeah, I don't understand why it's falling apart.

18:24.960 --> 18:26.540
As far as Adam was concerned,

18:26.640 --> 18:27.840
they'd been building a case.

18:28.540 --> 18:31.120
More incidents in another country with ties to Russia.

18:31.660 --> 18:32.720
Talk of microwaves.

18:33.160 --> 18:35.080
It all seemed to be moving in the right direction.

18:35.780 --> 18:37.280
Now, disagreement within the government

18:37.280 --> 18:38.740
was throwing everything off track.

18:39.360 --> 18:40.960
But as we know from Marco Rubio,

18:41.240 --> 18:42.640
the former senator from Florida,

18:42.640 --> 18:45.380
who grabbed hold of the Havana syndrome issue

18:45.380 --> 18:47.940
while commentators quibbled about cricket sounds,

18:48.740 --> 18:50.440
uncertainty often makes way

18:50.440 --> 18:52.440
for a leader filled with conviction.

18:53.380 --> 18:55.060
I don't think anything accidental

18:55.060 --> 18:59.500
happens to American diplomats in hostile countries.

18:59.500 --> 19:03.100
In April 2018, Ambassador John Bolton

19:03.100 --> 19:05.460
became Trump's national security advisor.

19:06.340 --> 19:07.780
You may be familiar with Bolton.

19:08.380 --> 19:11.180
For decades, he was one of the Republican Party's

19:11.180 --> 19:13.500
most hard-line foreign policy thinkers.

19:14.640 --> 19:15.780
He says when he came in,

19:15.900 --> 19:18.760
Havana syndrome was one of several items on his desk

19:18.760 --> 19:20.060
that he wanted to prioritize.

19:21.200 --> 19:23.760
This was potentially a direct attack

19:23.760 --> 19:25.000
on American officials.

19:25.540 --> 19:27.400
It caught my attention immediately,

19:27.400 --> 19:28.140
that's for sure.

19:29.140 --> 19:29.840
By reputation,

19:30.220 --> 19:32.200
Bolton doesn't always work well with others.

19:32.780 --> 19:34.760
But Trump regularly watched Bolton

19:34.760 --> 19:35.740
on Fox and Friends

19:35.740 --> 19:37.620
and described him as one tough cookie.

19:39.020 --> 19:40.620
Why do you think he picked you for the job?

19:41.060 --> 19:42.240
Well, I thought at the time

19:42.240 --> 19:43.460
that it was because he agreed

19:43.460 --> 19:44.800
with a lot of what I was saying.

19:44.960 --> 19:46.520
Presumably, you don't hire somebody

19:46.520 --> 19:47.660
that you don't agree with.

19:48.020 --> 19:49.140
And are you smiling

19:49.140 --> 19:50.500
because it didn't work out that way?

19:50.900 --> 19:53.040
Well, I don't think he believes in anything

19:53.040 --> 19:55.140
except the greater glory of Donald Trump.

19:55.140 --> 19:56.480
He doesn't have a philosophy.

19:56.760 --> 19:58.540
He doesn't pursue policies

19:58.540 --> 20:00.500
in the way most decision-makers

20:00.500 --> 20:04.100
and academics would construe that.

20:04.480 --> 20:06.220
Apparently, Bolton's independent streak

20:06.220 --> 20:06.860
was a problem

20:06.860 --> 20:08.220
because Trump fired him

20:08.220 --> 20:09.960
after a little less than 18 months.

20:10.980 --> 20:12.940
Some sources cited Trump's dislike

20:12.940 --> 20:14.200
of Bolton's moustache

20:14.200 --> 20:15.540
as a contributing factor.

20:16.480 --> 20:17.620
Bolton denounced Trump

20:17.620 --> 20:19.300
as a useful idiot for Putin.

20:20.160 --> 20:20.880
By the end,

20:21.240 --> 20:22.900
Trump was calling him a sick puppy.

20:22.900 --> 20:25.440
And as I said in my book,

20:25.540 --> 20:26.800
working in his administration

20:26.800 --> 20:28.340
turned out to be like

20:28.340 --> 20:29.720
living in a pinball machine.

20:30.100 --> 20:31.000
Looking for stability

20:31.000 --> 20:32.200
in the Trump White House,

20:32.700 --> 20:34.260
Bolton hired a trusted deputy,

20:34.780 --> 20:35.720
his old work pal,

20:35.880 --> 20:36.640
Charlie Kupperman.

20:37.400 --> 20:39.080
Friendship and commitment

20:39.080 --> 20:40.900
goes back to the Reagan days.

20:41.260 --> 20:41.740
And, you know,

20:41.780 --> 20:42.760
it was clear this country

20:42.760 --> 20:44.580
had some national security challenges

20:44.580 --> 20:46.320
and that Donald Trump

20:46.320 --> 20:47.580
was a different kind of president

20:47.580 --> 20:48.900
than Ronald Reagan was.

20:49.520 --> 20:50.420
Kupperman and Bolton

20:50.420 --> 20:51.800
personally helped Reagan

20:51.800 --> 20:52.980
spread the world view

20:52.980 --> 20:53.820
that was in style

20:53.820 --> 20:55.000
back in the Cold War.

20:55.660 --> 20:56.800
Ronald Reagan believed

20:56.800 --> 20:58.340
that the Soviet Union

20:58.340 --> 20:59.720
was an evil empire

20:59.720 --> 21:01.140
and that, you know,

21:01.200 --> 21:02.540
the only outcome was,

21:02.680 --> 21:03.260
as he said,

21:03.320 --> 21:04.440
we win, they lose.

21:05.100 --> 21:06.600
These two Cold War warriors

21:06.600 --> 21:08.320
still keenly perceived threats

21:08.320 --> 21:09.800
associated with that era.

21:10.200 --> 21:11.560
They suspected Havana syndrome

21:11.560 --> 21:12.840
came out of that world

21:12.840 --> 21:14.080
and they wanted to deal

21:14.080 --> 21:14.940
with it head on.

21:15.680 --> 21:17.000
Was it being taken pretty seriously

21:17.000 --> 21:17.800
when you came in?

21:17.800 --> 21:20.680
No, no, because I think

21:20.680 --> 21:21.660
they don't want to,

21:22.340 --> 21:23.380
because, you know,

21:23.440 --> 21:24.400
they would just as soon

21:24.400 --> 21:25.180
brush it off.

21:25.960 --> 21:27.320
Adam, or Patient Zero,

21:27.760 --> 21:28.740
had felt that he'd finally

21:28.740 --> 21:30.020
got through to the top floor

21:30.020 --> 21:30.660
at the CIA.

21:32.020 --> 21:33.780
The director, Mike Pompeo,

21:33.840 --> 21:34.560
had awarded him

21:34.560 --> 21:35.220
that certificate.

21:36.180 --> 21:37.260
But Pompeo's time

21:37.260 --> 21:38.640
as director was now up.

21:39.200 --> 21:40.380
On his way out the door,

21:40.780 --> 21:42.080
he gave Bolton a heads up

21:42.080 --> 21:43.160
about where things stood

21:43.160 --> 21:44.080
on Havana syndrome.

21:44.080 --> 21:46.520
And he said,

21:46.720 --> 21:48.260
in general terms,

21:48.340 --> 21:49.740
I can describe the conversation,

21:49.940 --> 21:51.500
that we have this disagreement

21:51.500 --> 21:52.540
within the government,

21:52.780 --> 21:54.100
uncertainty about what

21:54.100 --> 21:55.500
caused the attacks,

21:55.620 --> 21:56.680
which is how he and I

21:56.680 --> 21:57.840
both viewed them.

21:58.040 --> 21:59.220
And he just felt

21:59.220 --> 22:00.260
the bureaucracy,

22:00.680 --> 22:01.540
both the CIA

22:01.540 --> 22:03.160
and the State Department,

22:03.640 --> 22:05.180
was not making progress

22:05.180 --> 22:06.100
toward resolving

22:06.100 --> 22:07.480
what had happened.

22:07.680 --> 22:08.700
Kupperman says he told

22:08.700 --> 22:10.080
the new CIA head,

22:10.220 --> 22:10.920
Gina Haspel,

22:11.300 --> 22:11.840
that they wanted

22:11.840 --> 22:12.980
intelligence updates

22:12.980 --> 22:14.400
in as close to real time

22:14.400 --> 22:15.060
as possible.

22:15.420 --> 22:16.660
I don't think they had

22:16.660 --> 22:18.000
the same sense of urgency

22:18.000 --> 22:19.300
that we had.

22:19.760 --> 22:20.600
But the truth is

22:20.600 --> 22:21.780
that over the following year,

22:22.060 --> 22:22.920
they struggled to stay

22:22.920 --> 22:24.100
on top of Havana syndrome.

22:24.840 --> 22:26.480
In the West Wing pinball machine,

22:26.760 --> 22:27.300
there were a lot

22:27.300 --> 22:28.620
of other things going on.

22:28.700 --> 22:29.800
The first week I arrived,

22:29.880 --> 22:30.460
we had to deal with

22:30.460 --> 22:31.700
a chemical weapons attack

22:31.700 --> 22:32.220
in Syria.

22:32.340 --> 22:33.420
So I arrived on Monday

22:33.420 --> 22:34.700
and we were bombing Syria

22:34.700 --> 22:35.320
by Friday.

22:35.460 --> 22:36.220
So I was a little bit

22:36.220 --> 22:37.480
occupied the first week

22:37.480 --> 22:38.120
and there were a number

22:38.120 --> 22:38.780
of other things

22:38.780 --> 22:40.420
that had also piled up.

22:40.420 --> 22:41.540
Ambassador Bolton

22:41.540 --> 22:42.620
had a vision

22:42.620 --> 22:43.460
on how he wanted

22:43.460 --> 22:44.580
to run the NSC.

22:44.980 --> 22:47.060
So it's non-stop though.

22:47.180 --> 22:48.020
It is non-stop.

22:48.600 --> 22:49.780
As far as Mark Lenzi

22:49.780 --> 22:50.260
could see,

22:50.680 --> 22:51.520
nothing was happening.

22:52.140 --> 22:52.960
He says he was trying

22:52.960 --> 22:54.500
in vain to get medical care

22:54.500 --> 22:55.260
for his family.

22:56.020 --> 22:56.840
He says he's maintained

22:56.840 --> 22:57.880
secrets on behalf

22:57.880 --> 22:58.540
of his government

22:58.540 --> 22:59.600
for his whole career.

23:00.020 --> 23:00.740
But in this case,

23:00.800 --> 23:01.620
he felt secrecy

23:01.620 --> 23:02.880
was no longer an option.

23:03.660 --> 23:05.060
He decided to go public

23:05.060 --> 23:06.040
in a big way.

23:06.700 --> 23:07.980
My neighbor, me,

23:07.980 --> 23:09.160
these aren't the type

23:09.160 --> 23:10.520
of people that want

23:10.520 --> 23:11.440
to go to the press.

23:11.520 --> 23:12.480
That's the last resort

23:12.480 --> 23:13.500
thing to do for us.

23:13.580 --> 23:14.500
We love doing what we do

23:14.500 --> 23:15.040
in the shadows.

23:15.480 --> 23:16.720
That was our last resort

23:16.720 --> 23:18.120
to do that, right?

23:18.180 --> 23:19.880
They forced us to do that

23:19.880 --> 23:21.900
and we had no other choice.

23:23.580 --> 23:25.620
On March 17th, 2019,

23:26.500 --> 23:27.560
CBS network show

23:27.560 --> 23:28.460
60 Minutes,

23:28.920 --> 23:30.200
the highest rated news show

23:30.200 --> 23:30.840
in America,

23:31.580 --> 23:32.260
aired a special

23:32.260 --> 23:34.000
titled Targeting Americans.

23:34.720 --> 23:35.320
Until now,

23:35.400 --> 23:36.340
the alleged victims

23:36.340 --> 23:37.240
had been shielded

23:37.240 --> 23:37.820
from the public.

23:38.400 --> 23:39.600
60 Minutes put a face

23:39.600 --> 23:40.440
on Havana Syndrome

23:40.440 --> 23:42.080
for millions of viewers.

23:42.640 --> 23:43.460
Over many months,

23:43.600 --> 23:44.660
we have been collecting

23:44.660 --> 23:45.940
evidence of what appears

23:45.940 --> 23:47.040
to be a hostile

23:47.040 --> 23:48.540
foreign government's plan

23:48.540 --> 23:50.340
to target Americans

23:50.340 --> 23:51.300
serving abroad.

23:51.680 --> 23:52.500
The evidence presented

23:52.500 --> 23:52.980
in the show

23:52.980 --> 23:54.200
was far from definitive.

23:54.800 --> 23:55.640
It consisted largely

23:55.640 --> 23:56.820
of first-hand accounts

23:56.820 --> 23:58.020
of strange experiences.

23:58.840 --> 23:59.560
Lenzi appeared

23:59.560 --> 24:00.880
wearing tinted spectacles,

24:01.240 --> 24:01.940
which he said helped

24:01.940 --> 24:02.780
with balance issues

24:02.780 --> 24:03.800
and light sensitivity

24:03.800 --> 24:05.080
brought on by the attacks.

24:05.540 --> 24:06.260
His former neighbor,

24:06.380 --> 24:07.020
Catherine Werner,

24:07.020 --> 24:08.060
described a sound

24:08.060 --> 24:09.060
coming from nowhere,

24:09.560 --> 24:10.680
a pressure on her temples,

24:11.300 --> 24:12.140
her pet dogs

24:12.140 --> 24:13.080
coughing up blood.

24:13.680 --> 24:14.440
It was like a scene

24:14.440 --> 24:15.360
from a horror movie.

24:15.620 --> 24:18.360
I started to get hives

24:18.360 --> 24:19.780
all over my body,

24:20.200 --> 24:21.140
really bad hives.

24:21.700 --> 24:24.080
I woke up with headaches

24:24.080 --> 24:24.860
every day.

24:26.020 --> 24:29.200
I started to feel tired.

24:29.380 --> 24:30.240
The simplest things

24:30.240 --> 24:31.020
would just make me

24:31.020 --> 24:32.080
very, very tired.

24:32.660 --> 24:34.400
Then, that summer of 2019,

24:34.720 --> 24:35.300
Havana Syndrome

24:35.300 --> 24:36.300
struck at the heart

24:36.300 --> 24:37.140
of the very team

24:37.140 --> 24:38.440
taking this most seriously.

24:39.280 --> 24:39.860
In late May,

24:39.980 --> 24:40.700
Ambassador Bolton

24:40.700 --> 24:41.340
flew to London

24:41.340 --> 24:42.020
with the President

24:42.020 --> 24:43.260
to visit the Queen.

24:44.280 --> 24:44.940
On that trip,

24:45.080 --> 24:46.320
two of Bolton's staff

24:46.320 --> 24:47.840
on the National Security Council

24:47.840 --> 24:49.080
believed they were hit

24:49.080 --> 24:50.320
in their London hotel room.

24:50.880 --> 24:51.520
When they returned

24:51.520 --> 24:52.300
to the U.S.,

24:52.300 --> 24:53.540
one of those two staffers

24:53.540 --> 24:55.160
believed she was targeted again

24:55.160 --> 24:56.340
while she was out

24:56.340 --> 24:57.160
walking her dog.

24:57.840 --> 24:58.760
She was outside

24:58.760 --> 24:59.760
a Trader Joe's

24:59.760 --> 25:00.800
in the Washington area.

25:00.800 --> 25:02.760
Over the next year or so,

25:02.860 --> 25:03.660
there were several more

25:03.660 --> 25:04.800
incidents in the U.S.,

25:04.800 --> 25:05.800
including one that involved

25:05.800 --> 25:07.120
a senior member of the NSE

25:07.120 --> 25:08.780
who confided to Bolton

25:08.780 --> 25:09.940
that he'd been stricken

25:09.940 --> 25:10.900
while walking down

25:10.900 --> 25:11.760
a flight of steps

25:11.760 --> 25:12.660
by the West Wing.

25:13.140 --> 25:13.600
Obviously,

25:13.960 --> 25:16.200
something very serious

25:16.200 --> 25:17.480
is going on.

25:18.520 --> 25:19.520
The same individual

25:19.520 --> 25:20.200
being struck

25:20.200 --> 25:21.440
on multiple continents,

25:22.180 --> 25:23.640
attacks on an Allies' territory

25:23.640 --> 25:25.000
during a presidential visit,

25:25.000 --> 25:27.140
and even on American soil

25:27.140 --> 25:28.480
within striking distance

25:28.480 --> 25:29.340
of the West Wing

25:29.340 --> 25:31.760
and to Bolton's own staff.

25:32.380 --> 25:33.260
To some observers,

25:33.500 --> 25:34.420
incidents like these

25:34.420 --> 25:35.100
took the story

25:35.100 --> 25:35.860
of Havana Syndrome

25:35.860 --> 25:37.080
into a realm

25:37.080 --> 25:38.260
that stretched credulity.

25:38.720 --> 25:39.040
To them,

25:39.120 --> 25:40.080
it was outlandish

25:40.080 --> 25:40.900
to believe an enemy

25:40.900 --> 25:42.040
could attack Americans

25:42.040 --> 25:43.040
on their home ground

25:43.040 --> 25:44.420
with an invisible ray.

25:44.800 --> 25:45.400
But Kupperman,

25:45.880 --> 25:46.860
who personally dealt

25:46.860 --> 25:47.540
with the staff,

25:48.060 --> 25:48.780
saw it differently.

25:49.240 --> 25:49.980
And they came to me,

25:50.020 --> 25:50.160
I said,

25:50.220 --> 25:50.960
you should have come in here

25:50.960 --> 25:51.900
the first day you got back.

25:52.340 --> 25:53.360
We take this seriously

25:53.360 --> 25:54.480
and we know that

25:54.480 --> 25:55.500
something happened to you

25:55.500 --> 25:56.840
if you said it happened to you.

25:57.100 --> 25:58.100
It seemed to Kupperman

25:58.100 --> 25:59.240
that Havana Syndrome

25:59.240 --> 25:59.960
was striking

25:59.960 --> 26:00.960
at the very heart

26:00.960 --> 26:02.100
of American power.

26:02.680 --> 26:02.900
I mean,

26:02.940 --> 26:03.940
these people were marked.

26:04.140 --> 26:05.120
It's not accidental.

26:05.600 --> 26:06.160
Why did you think

26:06.160 --> 26:07.120
they in particular

26:07.120 --> 26:08.220
might have been targeted?

26:08.580 --> 26:09.960
Because of their jobs

26:09.960 --> 26:10.720
and where they were

26:10.720 --> 26:11.540
and who they were with.

26:11.960 --> 26:12.160
You know,

26:12.220 --> 26:12.860
these are people

26:12.860 --> 26:15.040
who have some of the

26:15.040 --> 26:16.460
most sensitive

26:16.460 --> 26:18.240
national security clearances.

26:18.960 --> 26:20.340
The American incidents

26:20.340 --> 26:21.060
in particular

26:21.060 --> 26:22.040
convinced Kupperman

26:22.040 --> 26:23.020
that this was the work

26:23.020 --> 26:24.260
of his old nemesis,

26:24.380 --> 26:24.860
the Russians.

26:25.600 --> 26:26.680
So they're signaling

26:26.680 --> 26:27.720
the United States

26:27.720 --> 26:28.640
that anybody

26:28.640 --> 26:29.980
is reachable

26:29.980 --> 26:32.640
by a Soviet-Russian target.

26:33.380 --> 26:35.320
And basically saying,

26:35.440 --> 26:36.180
we know who you are,

26:36.240 --> 26:37.100
we know where you are,

26:37.220 --> 26:37.980
we can reach out

26:37.980 --> 26:38.520
and touch you

26:38.520 --> 26:39.460
and do things to you

26:39.460 --> 26:40.560
that you can't control.

26:40.940 --> 26:42.640
We know how Putin behaves,

26:43.220 --> 26:43.600
you know.

26:44.240 --> 26:46.020
He puts out operations

26:46.020 --> 26:48.340
against foreign individuals

26:48.340 --> 26:49.680
all the time.

26:50.620 --> 26:51.980
Looking down the pike,

26:51.980 --> 26:53.540
Bolton saw a grave

26:53.540 --> 26:54.100
and growing

26:54.100 --> 26:55.660
national security threat.

26:56.760 --> 26:58.360
Just as the great inventor

26:58.360 --> 26:59.100
Nikola Tesla

26:59.100 --> 27:00.340
had a century earlier,

27:00.840 --> 27:01.780
he envisioned a weapon

27:01.780 --> 27:02.640
that could take out

27:02.640 --> 27:03.940
an army in an instant.

27:04.320 --> 27:06.880
If you had a directed energy weapon

27:06.880 --> 27:08.180
that could immobilize

27:08.180 --> 27:09.560
thousands of people

27:09.560 --> 27:10.860
at distance,

27:11.020 --> 27:12.180
you could incapacitate

27:12.180 --> 27:12.920
a government's

27:12.920 --> 27:14.280
decision-making capability

27:14.280 --> 27:15.320
in the middle of a crisis.

27:15.320 --> 27:16.680
You could incapacitate

27:16.680 --> 27:17.540
large numbers

27:17.540 --> 27:18.300
of its troops.

27:19.240 --> 27:20.440
With these sorts of stakes,

27:20.660 --> 27:21.500
this would ordinarily

27:21.500 --> 27:22.180
be a question

27:22.180 --> 27:22.880
for the president.

27:23.720 --> 27:24.500
Trump had apparently

27:24.500 --> 27:25.460
been all for punishing

27:25.460 --> 27:26.600
Cuba over the issue.

27:27.540 --> 27:28.420
But now that Bolton

27:28.420 --> 27:29.340
suspected Russia

27:29.340 --> 27:29.920
was behind

27:29.920 --> 27:30.800
Havana syndrome,

27:31.060 --> 27:31.800
it was trickier.

27:33.080 --> 27:33.860
Kupperman felt

27:33.860 --> 27:35.080
that the disjointed

27:35.080 --> 27:36.500
response from the government

27:36.500 --> 27:37.640
was giving people

27:37.640 --> 27:38.480
valuable cover

27:38.480 --> 27:39.320
to duck an issue

27:39.320 --> 27:40.160
that no one wanted

27:40.160 --> 27:41.320
to tackle head on.

27:41.320 --> 27:44.200
Once we make a conclusion

27:44.200 --> 27:45.380
as to where

27:45.380 --> 27:46.500
and who is responsible

27:46.500 --> 27:46.980
for it,

27:47.000 --> 27:47.680
the next question

27:47.680 --> 27:48.080
is going to be

27:48.080 --> 27:48.460
what are you going

27:48.460 --> 27:49.020
to do about it?

27:49.480 --> 27:50.440
And that's back

27:50.440 --> 27:51.620
to the arms control

27:51.620 --> 27:52.400
philosophy.

27:52.740 --> 27:54.120
If you find somebody

27:54.120 --> 27:54.740
that's cheating,

27:54.840 --> 27:55.120
what are you going

27:55.120 --> 27:55.700
to do about it?

27:55.860 --> 27:56.760
So it's a lot easier

27:56.760 --> 27:57.080
to say,

27:57.140 --> 27:58.440
I couldn't find anybody

27:58.440 --> 27:58.820
cheating.

27:59.240 --> 27:59.960
Because if you make

27:59.960 --> 28:00.860
that determination,

28:01.540 --> 28:02.400
what do you do about it?

28:03.240 --> 28:04.100
Trump seemed not

28:04.100 --> 28:05.040
to share their view

28:05.040 --> 28:06.000
about Russia's threat

28:06.000 --> 28:06.720
to the US

28:06.720 --> 28:07.640
and the world order

28:07.640 --> 28:08.900
and was attempting

28:08.900 --> 28:09.620
a different,

28:09.840 --> 28:10.800
more friendly approach

28:10.800 --> 28:11.840
with President Putin.

28:12.160 --> 28:12.960
I did worry

28:12.960 --> 28:13.800
that if I said

28:13.800 --> 28:14.960
we've got a hypothesis

28:14.960 --> 28:15.820
there's a Russian

28:15.820 --> 28:17.080
directed energy weapon

28:17.080 --> 28:18.260
that's harming our people,

28:18.420 --> 28:19.160
we want to do

28:19.160 --> 28:20.220
more research on it.

28:20.260 --> 28:21.120
He may well have said,

28:21.180 --> 28:21.640
oh, come on,

28:21.720 --> 28:23.740
I'll just talk to Putin

28:23.740 --> 28:24.140
about it.

28:24.160 --> 28:24.840
We'll get that

28:24.840 --> 28:25.560
straightened out.

28:25.980 --> 28:27.160
And that would have been

28:27.160 --> 28:28.420
the end of the whole thing

28:28.420 --> 28:29.140
because Putin

28:29.140 --> 28:30.080
would go to ground

28:30.080 --> 28:31.140
for a considerable

28:31.140 --> 28:32.000
period of time

28:32.000 --> 28:33.920
or conduct their experiment

28:33.920 --> 28:34.740
somewhere else

28:34.740 --> 28:35.440
where we wouldn't

28:35.440 --> 28:36.420
find out about it.

28:37.200 --> 28:37.880
Years later,

28:37.980 --> 28:38.700
when Adam heard

28:38.700 --> 28:39.700
of Bolton's decision

28:39.700 --> 28:40.600
not to approach

28:40.600 --> 28:41.600
Trump to discuss

28:41.600 --> 28:42.540
a Russia connection,

28:42.920 --> 28:43.880
he would be furious.

28:44.240 --> 28:44.880
You don't get

28:44.880 --> 28:45.800
to dictate that.

28:46.000 --> 28:46.840
That's not your job.

28:46.920 --> 28:47.660
Your job is not

28:47.660 --> 28:49.340
to withhold information

28:49.340 --> 28:50.480
from the president,

28:50.760 --> 28:51.420
whether you like him

28:51.420 --> 28:51.840
or not,

28:52.180 --> 28:53.000
or whether you think

28:53.000 --> 28:53.640
they can handle it

28:53.640 --> 28:53.840
or not.

28:53.860 --> 28:55.020
That's not your job.

28:55.280 --> 28:56.200
At the time, though,

28:56.320 --> 28:57.140
Bolton felt it would

28:57.140 --> 28:57.740
be premature,

28:58.460 --> 28:59.160
admitting that they

28:59.160 --> 28:59.900
were still working

28:59.900 --> 29:00.620
on a hunch.

29:01.280 --> 29:02.100
If we had had

29:02.100 --> 29:02.860
more evidence,

29:03.000 --> 29:03.940
if we had had

29:03.940 --> 29:05.020
the ability to come

29:05.020 --> 29:06.440
to a clearer conclusion,

29:06.920 --> 29:07.840
obviously we would

29:07.840 --> 29:08.380
have to go to

29:08.380 --> 29:08.920
the president.

29:09.240 --> 29:11.060
But in the ambiguous,

29:11.400 --> 29:12.400
amorphous situation

29:12.400 --> 29:13.460
we were in at the time,

29:13.820 --> 29:15.340
I felt that it was

29:15.340 --> 29:16.060
both premature

29:16.060 --> 29:17.560
and potentially dangerous

29:17.560 --> 29:18.820
that the whole thing

29:18.820 --> 29:19.740
would be shut down.

29:20.800 --> 29:21.860
So under Trump,

29:22.120 --> 29:22.480
there would be

29:22.480 --> 29:23.800
no aggressive investigation

29:23.800 --> 29:24.760
of this alleged

29:24.760 --> 29:25.660
Russia connection.

29:25.660 --> 29:27.380
But what happened next

29:27.380 --> 29:28.460
might surprise you.

29:29.160 --> 29:29.940
Bolton and Kupperman

29:29.940 --> 29:30.660
might have seen

29:30.660 --> 29:31.400
Havana syndrome

29:31.400 --> 29:33.100
as a rapidly evolving

29:33.100 --> 29:34.000
global threat

29:34.000 --> 29:35.880
orchestrated by a world power.

29:36.480 --> 29:37.300
But they wanted

29:37.300 --> 29:38.220
to bring the focus

29:38.220 --> 29:39.960
back to that small island

29:39.960 --> 29:40.820
in the Caribbean.

29:41.820 --> 29:42.860
Wouldn't surprise me

29:42.860 --> 29:43.520
if the Cubans

29:43.520 --> 29:44.500
had helped the Russians

29:44.500 --> 29:44.800
out.

29:44.880 --> 29:45.660
That hypothesis,

29:46.100 --> 29:46.700
I felt,

29:46.780 --> 29:47.360
was consistent

29:47.360 --> 29:48.580
with their past behavior.

29:49.480 --> 29:50.400
When it comes

29:50.400 --> 29:51.480
to suspecting Cuba

29:51.480 --> 29:53.000
of having covert weapons,

29:53.500 --> 29:54.380
Bolton has previous.

29:54.380 --> 29:54.580
this.

29:55.560 --> 29:56.200
Bolton Armstrong,

29:56.600 --> 29:58.200
that former CIA analyst,

29:58.580 --> 29:59.460
told us about it.

29:59.740 --> 30:01.160
Believing is seeing

30:01.160 --> 30:02.320
for somebody

30:02.320 --> 30:03.300
like a John Bolton.

30:03.820 --> 30:04.600
I believe it,

30:04.680 --> 30:05.540
therefore I see it.

30:06.040 --> 30:06.560
And I'm damned

30:06.560 --> 30:07.320
I'll find it.

30:08.360 --> 30:09.720
17 years earlier,

30:09.980 --> 30:10.620
back during the war

30:10.620 --> 30:11.080
on terror,

30:11.640 --> 30:12.580
Bolton accused Cuba

30:12.580 --> 30:14.020
of using its drug companies

30:14.020 --> 30:14.700
as a front

30:14.700 --> 30:16.380
for making bioweapons

30:16.380 --> 30:17.620
such as anthrax.

30:18.160 --> 30:18.660
And he warned

30:18.660 --> 30:19.540
that Iran and Cuba

30:19.540 --> 30:20.400
might get together

30:20.400 --> 30:21.760
and bring America

30:21.760 --> 30:22.580
to its knees.

30:23.240 --> 30:23.920
But all of us

30:23.920 --> 30:24.620
who know Cuba

30:24.620 --> 30:25.580
said,

30:25.660 --> 30:25.980
wait,

30:26.520 --> 30:27.060
time out.

30:27.480 --> 30:28.680
There are much

30:28.680 --> 30:29.320
more plausible

30:29.320 --> 30:31.000
explanations for this.

30:31.080 --> 30:31.620
And by the way,

30:31.640 --> 30:32.460
there's no evidence

30:32.460 --> 30:32.880
at all.

30:33.340 --> 30:34.420
The germ warfare claim

30:34.420 --> 30:35.080
didn't stick.

30:35.480 --> 30:36.740
But in April 2019,

30:37.660 --> 30:38.280
Bolton launched

30:38.280 --> 30:39.140
a fresh attack

30:39.140 --> 30:40.320
on the Cuban regime

30:40.320 --> 30:42.120
using Havana syndrome

30:42.120 --> 30:43.460
as the starting pistol.

30:43.820 --> 30:45.720
To justify its policy

30:45.720 --> 30:47.120
of normalizing relations

30:47.120 --> 30:47.640
with Cuba,

30:47.800 --> 30:48.760
President Obama

30:48.760 --> 30:49.540
said Cuba,

30:49.680 --> 30:50.300
and I quote,

30:50.640 --> 30:52.780
poses no genuine threat.

30:54.120 --> 30:55.200
Tell that

30:55.200 --> 30:56.760
to the American diplomats

30:56.760 --> 30:57.640
who were attacked

30:57.640 --> 30:58.300
in Havana.

30:58.300 --> 31:02.060
On the anniversary

31:02.060 --> 31:03.440
of the Bay of Pigs,

31:03.860 --> 31:04.460
Bolton said

31:04.460 --> 31:05.280
that America

31:05.280 --> 31:05.740
was ready

31:05.740 --> 31:06.280
to finish

31:06.280 --> 31:07.120
what they'd started.

31:07.540 --> 31:08.680
And by destroying

31:08.680 --> 31:09.780
the Cuban regime,

31:10.120 --> 31:11.180
Russia's old foothold

31:11.180 --> 31:11.780
in the West,

31:12.320 --> 31:12.820
they threatened

31:12.820 --> 31:13.220
to kick

31:13.220 --> 31:14.520
their Cold War nemesis

31:14.520 --> 31:15.620
out of America's

31:15.620 --> 31:16.500
backyard once

31:16.500 --> 31:17.100
and for all.

31:17.200 --> 31:18.040
The destinies

31:18.040 --> 31:18.700
of our nation

31:18.700 --> 31:19.980
will not be dictated

31:19.980 --> 31:21.180
by foreign powers.

31:21.680 --> 31:22.660
They will be shaped

31:22.660 --> 31:23.480
by the people

31:23.480 --> 31:23.920
who call

31:23.920 --> 31:24.720
this hemisphere

31:24.720 --> 31:25.720
home.

31:26.860 --> 31:29.900
Cuba is a huge failure

31:29.900 --> 31:31.220
of American foreign policy

31:31.220 --> 31:32.980
going back 70-plus years,

31:33.340 --> 31:35.500
and trying to fix it,

31:35.540 --> 31:35.820
I think,

31:35.880 --> 31:36.720
should be a priority

31:36.720 --> 31:38.540
for any American president.

31:39.020 --> 31:40.640
What do you see it fixing it as?

31:40.680 --> 31:41.540
How would you fix it?

31:41.800 --> 31:42.720
Eliminating the regime

31:42.720 --> 31:44.040
and allowing the Cuban people

31:44.040 --> 31:45.100
to pick their own government.

31:45.680 --> 31:47.020
It's not always an invasion.

31:47.300 --> 31:47.600
You know,

31:47.660 --> 31:48.880
if you believe in the people,

31:48.980 --> 31:49.740
you believe in, you know,

31:49.960 --> 31:50.960
representative government,

31:51.140 --> 31:52.340
the legitimacy,

31:52.700 --> 31:53.420
sovereignty flow

31:53.420 --> 31:54.120
from the people,

31:54.680 --> 31:56.000
then empower the people.

31:56.520 --> 31:57.100
This time,

31:57.500 --> 31:58.360
Bolton wasn't talking

31:58.360 --> 31:59.200
about an invasion.

31:59.860 --> 32:00.140
Instead,

32:00.640 --> 32:01.600
they would starve out

32:01.600 --> 32:02.200
the regime

32:02.200 --> 32:03.200
through crippling

32:03.200 --> 32:04.360
economic sanctions.

32:05.360 --> 32:05.980
At that dinner,

32:06.580 --> 32:07.300
Bolton boasted

32:07.300 --> 32:08.140
of their achievements.

32:08.600 --> 32:09.900
We have imposed

32:09.900 --> 32:11.560
even further sanctioned,

32:11.980 --> 32:12.980
tightened restrictions,

32:13.540 --> 32:14.360
and scaled back

32:14.360 --> 32:15.180
U.S. personnel

32:15.180 --> 32:16.380
at Embassy Havana

32:16.380 --> 32:17.540
in response

32:17.540 --> 32:18.840
to the vicious attacks

32:18.840 --> 32:20.320
on American diplomats.

32:21.200 --> 32:22.120
From now on,

32:22.120 --> 32:23.140
no regime

32:23.140 --> 32:24.060
will target

32:24.060 --> 32:25.220
American citizens

32:25.220 --> 32:26.400
with impunity.

32:27.060 --> 32:28.740
Under this administration,

32:29.240 --> 32:30.520
we don't throw

32:30.520 --> 32:32.220
dictators' lifelines.

32:32.740 --> 32:34.000
We will take them away.

32:37.220 --> 32:38.300
Bolton and Kupperman

32:38.300 --> 32:39.200
scoured the books

32:39.200 --> 32:40.300
for every last remnant

32:40.300 --> 32:41.400
of Obama's policy.

32:42.120 --> 32:42.940
They stopped

32:42.940 --> 32:43.700
Cuban Americans

32:43.700 --> 32:44.960
from sending money home

32:44.960 --> 32:46.040
via Western Union.

32:46.340 --> 32:47.080
They cancelled

32:47.080 --> 32:48.220
baseball contracts.

32:48.220 --> 32:49.680
And Kupperman says

32:49.680 --> 32:50.660
they began the process

32:50.660 --> 32:51.940
of reinstating Cuba

32:51.940 --> 32:53.080
on America's

32:53.080 --> 32:54.460
most noxious blacklist

32:54.460 --> 32:55.440
for foreign enemies,

32:56.020 --> 32:56.780
the state sponsors

32:56.780 --> 32:57.520
of terrorism.

32:58.280 --> 32:59.140
Being on this list

32:59.140 --> 33:00.540
ushers in a whole host

33:00.540 --> 33:01.300
of new sanctions

33:01.300 --> 33:02.040
and restrictions.

33:02.800 --> 33:03.380
Cuba would be

33:03.380 --> 33:04.380
a pariah state,

33:04.860 --> 33:05.400
along with just

33:05.400 --> 33:06.040
North Korea,

33:06.260 --> 33:06.540
Iran,

33:06.620 --> 33:07.080
and Syria.

33:07.660 --> 33:08.600
Obama had removed

33:08.600 --> 33:09.620
Cuba from this list.

33:10.180 --> 33:11.200
Trump put them back on.

33:11.540 --> 33:12.580
Sanctions take time.

33:12.720 --> 33:14.360
They're not a foolproof tool,

33:14.520 --> 33:16.340
but you can use them

33:16.340 --> 33:17.600
to impose pain

33:17.600 --> 33:18.440
without using

33:18.440 --> 33:19.880
a military option.

33:20.180 --> 33:20.920
But how does...

33:20.920 --> 33:22.020
What I'm saying is...

33:22.020 --> 33:23.280
So, you know, this...

33:23.280 --> 33:24.040
So keep Cuba

33:24.040 --> 33:25.240
out of the banking system.

33:25.980 --> 33:26.940
That's what that does.

33:27.120 --> 33:27.520
It does.

33:28.400 --> 33:29.060
Over time,

33:29.240 --> 33:30.220
people can't send money.

33:30.760 --> 33:31.840
The country can't trade.

33:32.480 --> 33:33.380
Things run short.

33:34.040 --> 33:35.220
The hope was to make life

33:35.220 --> 33:36.040
so intolerable

33:36.040 --> 33:37.040
for the ordinary Cuban

33:37.040 --> 33:38.540
that it would trigger

33:38.540 --> 33:39.120
an uprising.

33:39.920 --> 33:40.600
The Cuban people

33:40.600 --> 33:41.200
would overthrow

33:41.200 --> 33:42.440
the regime themselves.

33:43.580 --> 33:44.520
You isolate a country

33:44.520 --> 33:45.260
and, you know,

33:45.560 --> 33:46.100
pretty soon

33:46.100 --> 33:47.000
you had people

33:47.000 --> 33:47.500
in the streets.

33:48.060 --> 33:49.720
On July 11th, 2021,

33:50.080 --> 33:50.900
protests erupted

33:50.900 --> 33:51.760
across Cuba.

33:52.120 --> 33:53.420
There was an anarchic feel

33:53.420 --> 33:54.980
to the initial news reports.

33:55.580 --> 33:57.100
Videos shared on social media

33:57.100 --> 33:58.360
show protesters chanting

33:58.360 --> 33:59.380
with some overturning

33:59.380 --> 34:00.060
police cars

34:00.060 --> 34:01.160
and looting shops.

34:01.420 --> 34:02.240
Hundreds of people

34:02.240 --> 34:03.380
have joined protests

34:03.380 --> 34:04.440
against Cuba's

34:04.440 --> 34:05.240
communist government

34:05.240 --> 34:05.800
in Havana

34:05.800 --> 34:07.140
and several other cities.

34:08.320 --> 34:09.960
Once the protests began,

34:10.400 --> 34:11.160
Cuban Americans

34:11.160 --> 34:11.900
piled on,

34:11.900 --> 34:14.020
organising sympathy protests

34:14.020 --> 34:14.840
in Little Havana.

34:15.720 --> 34:17.140
The Miami Herald newspaper

34:17.140 --> 34:17.920
ran articles

34:17.920 --> 34:18.880
calling for the new

34:18.880 --> 34:20.000
president Joe Biden

34:20.000 --> 34:21.380
to force out the regime.

34:22.060 --> 34:23.180
Senator Marco Rubio

34:23.180 --> 34:23.980
used the media

34:23.980 --> 34:24.900
to push the government

34:24.900 --> 34:26.200
to seize the moment.

34:26.440 --> 34:27.060
What is it so hard

34:27.060 --> 34:27.760
about coming forward

34:27.760 --> 34:28.160
and saying,

34:28.560 --> 34:29.040
we're not going to

34:29.040 --> 34:29.860
tolerate brutality,

34:30.120 --> 34:30.660
we're not going to

34:30.660 --> 34:31.540
tolerate bloodshed,

34:31.800 --> 34:32.760
do not step forward,

34:32.860 --> 34:33.500
Cuban military,

34:33.720 --> 34:34.700
and attack and hurt

34:34.700 --> 34:35.340
your own people.

34:35.500 --> 34:36.120
If you do it,

34:36.140 --> 34:36.620
you're going to be

34:36.620 --> 34:37.220
held accountable.

34:37.220 --> 34:38.400
Fulton Armstrong,

34:38.700 --> 34:39.920
that CIA analyst,

34:40.300 --> 34:41.240
says he even emerged

34:41.240 --> 34:42.160
that Cuban exiles

34:42.160 --> 34:43.380
working in the U.S.

34:43.380 --> 34:44.040
may have helped

34:44.040 --> 34:45.000
spark the riots

34:45.000 --> 34:45.740
with a targeted

34:45.740 --> 34:47.280
social media campaign.

34:47.280 --> 34:49.040
They did Facebook things

34:49.040 --> 34:49.960
with pictures of

34:49.960 --> 34:51.260
President Diaz-Canel's

34:51.260 --> 34:52.060
head on a platter

34:52.060 --> 34:53.480
and they said,

34:53.680 --> 34:54.460
come to the plaza

34:54.460 --> 34:56.240
or never come again,

34:56.700 --> 34:57.240
you're chickens.

34:57.760 --> 34:58.960
It was very provocative.

34:59.840 --> 35:00.240
Parts of it

35:00.240 --> 35:01.160
were pretty sophisticated

35:01.160 --> 35:02.540
on very dry kindling,

35:03.000 --> 35:03.780
so it became

35:03.780 --> 35:04.580
a mass thing.

35:04.580 --> 35:05.780
So that was all,

35:05.880 --> 35:06.840
that was orchestrated?

35:07.060 --> 35:08.020
It was originated.

35:08.460 --> 35:08.740
Yeah.

35:09.060 --> 35:10.240
But most of the people

35:10.240 --> 35:10.660
who went out

35:10.660 --> 35:11.840
were obviously spontaneous,

35:12.200 --> 35:13.640
normal people.

35:14.200 --> 35:15.280
It's a dirty game.

35:15.440 --> 35:15.880
It's rough.

35:16.300 --> 35:17.120
It's a rough game.

35:17.820 --> 35:18.600
Before things

35:18.600 --> 35:19.700
could escalate further,

35:20.280 --> 35:21.040
the Cuban president

35:21.040 --> 35:21.860
got on the radio

35:21.860 --> 35:22.800
to call for members

35:22.800 --> 35:23.340
of the public

35:23.340 --> 35:23.960
to come out

35:23.960 --> 35:25.200
and block the protesters,

35:25.720 --> 35:26.480
which eventually

35:26.480 --> 35:27.780
brought them under control.

35:28.740 --> 35:30.260
Reporters tried to make sense

35:30.260 --> 35:32.020
of these unprecedented scenes.

35:32.940 --> 35:33.760
What do you read

35:33.760 --> 35:35.760
into the president's response?

35:36.000 --> 35:36.380
Do you think

35:36.380 --> 35:37.360
he's rattled by this?

35:37.700 --> 35:38.380
I do, yes.

35:38.400 --> 35:39.120
I definitely think

35:39.120 --> 35:39.660
he's rattled

35:39.660 --> 35:40.220
and I think

35:40.220 --> 35:40.760
this is their

35:40.760 --> 35:41.900
absolute worst scenario.

35:42.320 --> 35:43.460
They're hugely significant

35:43.460 --> 35:44.200
in the sense

35:44.200 --> 35:45.600
that we so rarely

35:45.600 --> 35:46.840
see any protest

35:46.840 --> 35:47.680
of any description

35:47.680 --> 35:48.480
that isn't government

35:48.480 --> 35:49.140
sanctioned

35:49.140 --> 35:50.200
or government organised

35:50.200 --> 35:50.800
in Cuba.

35:50.940 --> 35:51.920
So to have something

35:51.920 --> 35:52.860
that wasn't just

35:52.860 --> 35:54.020
spontaneous,

35:54.400 --> 35:55.600
apparently organic,

35:55.780 --> 35:56.260
but happening

35:56.260 --> 35:57.440
in a whole series

35:57.440 --> 35:58.620
of parts of the island

35:58.620 --> 35:59.560
at the same time

35:59.560 --> 36:01.300
was truly breathtaking.

36:01.300 --> 36:02.840
If this was

36:02.840 --> 36:04.040
another attempted coup,

36:04.420 --> 36:05.260
it failed again.

36:06.080 --> 36:06.800
But these forces

36:06.800 --> 36:07.720
would keep trying.

36:08.420 --> 36:09.180
Cuba's resilience

36:09.180 --> 36:10.700
is endlessly triggering.

36:11.400 --> 36:11.940
It's like that

36:11.940 --> 36:13.000
old American ambassador

36:13.000 --> 36:13.500
said,

36:13.940 --> 36:15.120
Cuba has the same effect

36:15.120 --> 36:16.680
on US administrations

36:16.680 --> 36:18.080
as the full moon

36:18.080 --> 36:19.300
does on werewolves.

36:22.980 --> 36:23.780
Havana Syndrome

36:23.780 --> 36:24.740
might have been a weapon,

36:25.360 --> 36:26.600
but whose weapon was it?

36:27.000 --> 36:28.060
The way the Cubans

36:28.060 --> 36:29.160
we spoke to saw it,

36:29.160 --> 36:30.540
the answer was clear.

36:31.320 --> 36:32.640
They want to strangle Cuba

36:32.640 --> 36:34.000
and grind it

36:34.000 --> 36:34.700
into the earth.

36:34.940 --> 36:35.860
That's what the US

36:35.860 --> 36:36.600
policy is doing.

36:40.920 --> 36:41.780
Next time

36:41.780 --> 36:43.160
on Havana Helmet Club.

36:44.160 --> 36:45.180
This ignorance

36:45.180 --> 36:46.080
of what's happening

36:46.080 --> 36:46.960
inside Cuba

36:46.960 --> 36:48.100
and of what was

36:48.100 --> 36:49.000
in the Cuban minds

36:49.000 --> 36:49.660
that has led

36:49.660 --> 36:50.400
so many people

36:50.400 --> 36:51.020
to believe that

36:51.020 --> 36:52.240
this whole Havana

36:52.240 --> 36:53.180
Syndrome story

36:53.180 --> 36:53.880
could have been true.

36:54.740 --> 36:56.080
Where's the evidence?

36:56.260 --> 36:57.040
Science is made

36:57.040 --> 36:57.880
with evidence.

36:57.880 --> 36:59.180
Where is your evidence?

36:59.520 --> 37:00.160
The new syndrome,

37:00.380 --> 37:01.000
where is it?

37:01.400 --> 37:01.900
They thought

37:01.900 --> 37:02.820
that I might potentially

37:02.820 --> 37:04.260
be held physical hostage.

37:04.760 --> 37:05.280
But they're all

37:05.280 --> 37:06.640
in the pocket of the Cubans.

37:06.900 --> 37:07.720
Explain that to me.

37:07.820 --> 37:08.540
These are just like

37:08.540 --> 37:09.680
scientists, right?

37:09.760 --> 37:10.280
Like, uh...

37:10.280 --> 37:11.120
Yeah, every scientist

37:11.120 --> 37:11.800
is for sale.

37:12.280 --> 37:12.680
Russians.

37:13.000 --> 37:13.740
Russians, no.

37:14.280 --> 37:14.760
Communists.

37:15.080 --> 37:16.200
I am not a communist.

37:16.200 --> 37:20.160
From BBC Radio 4,

37:20.360 --> 37:21.760
this is Havana Helmet Club.

37:22.220 --> 37:23.580
Listen to the latest episodes

37:23.580 --> 37:25.060
first on BBC Sounds.

37:25.620 --> 37:26.740
If you want to be notified

37:26.740 --> 37:28.420
when the latest episode drops,

37:28.860 --> 37:29.840
make sure you're subscribed

37:29.840 --> 37:31.240
to Havana Helmet Club

37:31.240 --> 37:32.260
on BBC Sounds

37:32.260 --> 37:33.760
and have push notifications

37:33.760 --> 37:34.500
turned on.

37:34.840 --> 37:35.500
While you're waiting

37:35.500 --> 37:36.500
for the next episode,

37:36.960 --> 37:37.640
you can check out

37:37.640 --> 37:39.220
even more gripping investigations

37:39.220 --> 37:40.080
with intrigue

37:40.080 --> 37:40.980
on BBC Sounds.

37:40.980 --> 37:43.120
One of our all-time favourites,

37:43.220 --> 37:43.760
The Rat Line,

37:43.800 --> 37:44.540
is on that feed.

37:44.960 --> 37:45.420
It came out

37:45.420 --> 37:46.440
a few years ago now,

37:46.780 --> 37:47.940
but it's such a great series

37:47.940 --> 37:49.020
because of Philippe Sounds'

37:49.160 --> 37:50.240
extraordinary personal

37:50.240 --> 37:51.320
connection to the story

37:51.320 --> 37:52.660
and because he weaves

37:52.660 --> 37:53.940
a plot that's as satisfying

37:53.940 --> 37:55.540
as any John le Carré thriller.

37:56.160 --> 37:56.800
There's lots of other

37:56.800 --> 37:58.300
great series to discover too.

37:58.780 --> 37:59.720
Just search Intrigue

37:59.720 --> 38:00.760
on BBC Sounds.

38:02.560 --> 38:03.460
Havana Helmet Club

38:03.460 --> 38:04.360
is written and presented

38:04.360 --> 38:05.300
by Sam Bunke

38:05.300 --> 38:06.240
and Jennifer Ford

38:06.240 --> 38:07.980
and edited by Guy Crossman.

38:08.140 --> 38:08.960
Our story editor

38:08.960 --> 38:09.680
is Mike Olive

38:09.680 --> 38:10.480
and our producer

38:10.480 --> 38:11.420
is Larry Ryan.

38:11.840 --> 38:12.560
Additional editing

38:12.560 --> 38:13.900
by Simon Pearce.

38:14.400 --> 38:15.120
Original music

38:15.120 --> 38:16.320
by Tom Pintons.

38:16.840 --> 38:17.480
Sound design

38:17.480 --> 38:18.640
by Meryn Royards.

38:19.220 --> 38:20.340
Additional sound design

38:20.340 --> 38:20.840
and mix

38:20.840 --> 38:22.400
by Peregrine Andrews.

38:23.000 --> 38:23.700
Commissioning editor

38:23.700 --> 38:24.340
for the BBC

38:24.340 --> 38:25.600
is Dylan Haskins.

38:26.060 --> 38:27.100
Assistant commissioners

38:27.100 --> 38:27.960
are Sarah Green

38:27.960 --> 38:29.340
and Natasha Johansson.

38:29.840 --> 38:30.660
Havana Helmet Club

38:30.660 --> 38:31.660
is a yarn production

38:31.660 --> 38:33.320
for BBC Radio 4

38:33.320 --> 38:34.480
and BBC Sounds.

38:37.540 --> 38:39.500
From BBC Radio 4.

38:39.500 --> 38:40.440
The Russians will be

38:40.440 --> 38:41.300
launching a satellite

38:41.300 --> 38:42.560
sometime in the next

38:42.560 --> 38:43.080
three weeks.

38:43.820 --> 38:44.640
I'm Kim Cattrall

38:44.640 --> 38:45.820
back with a new series

38:45.820 --> 38:46.840
of Central Intelligence.

38:47.080 --> 38:48.160
This is a CIA

38:48.160 --> 38:49.900
covert op top secret.

38:50.100 --> 38:51.000
The drama podcast

38:51.000 --> 38:52.440
that tells the history

38:52.440 --> 38:53.260
of the CIA

38:53.260 --> 38:55.080
from the inside out.

38:55.500 --> 38:56.720
Starring Ed Harris,

38:57.080 --> 38:57.680
Johnny Flynn

38:57.680 --> 38:58.340
and me,

38:58.540 --> 38:59.120
Kim Cattrall.

38:59.280 --> 38:59.920
Miss Page,

39:00.080 --> 39:01.360
such a pleasure

39:01.360 --> 39:02.880
to meet a real American.

39:03.520 --> 39:04.940
Listen to Central Intelligence

39:04.940 --> 39:06.280
Series 2 first

39:06.280 --> 39:07.840
on BBC Sounds.

39:07.840 --> 39:10.920
For more informationome,

39:11.980 --> 39:27.560
please press

39:27.560 --> 39:28.720
into additional

39:28.720 --> 39:28.820
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39:30.840 --> 39:31.180
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