WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:06.660 Hey, Anna, it's me. 00:10.000 --> 00:11.400 I wish I could talk to you. 00:13.880 --> 00:15.040 Something's wrong with me. 00:19.640 --> 00:21.720 I started feeling bad about an hour ago. 00:23.280 --> 00:26.000 I don't have a sense of balance, and... 00:26.000 --> 00:32.140 Basically, for the last hour, it felt like I'm having a stroke or something. 00:35.100 --> 00:37.840 I'm having a hard time talking. 00:39.760 --> 00:41.600 I can't describe feeling it. 00:48.800 --> 00:53.060 It's mid-November 2020, and an official with the National Security Council, 00:53.060 --> 00:56.400 who I'll call John, leaves these voicemails for his wife. 01:00.100 --> 01:18.300 As John is leaving work that day, something happens. 01:18.300 --> 01:22.320 Something that, to this day, he still can't explain. 01:23.400 --> 01:26.340 It's around 5 p.m. on the grounds of the White House, 01:26.640 --> 01:29.120 and he hears this ringing in his ears. 01:30.480 --> 01:32.460 He's in pain, but he keeps walking. 01:34.960 --> 01:36.320 His body goes numb. 01:37.020 --> 01:39.120 He's having trouble moving his hands and fingers. 01:39.120 --> 01:43.120 He's panicking, but he's still just trying to get home. 01:45.280 --> 01:48.820 So he makes his way out of the White House gates into the park outside. 01:49.500 --> 01:54.060 And that's where John collapses, falls straight to the ground. 01:54.060 --> 02:01.620 Now, this is a young guy, late 30s, healthy, 02:01.920 --> 02:05.440 and here he is, outside the White House, thinking he's going to die. 02:06.080 --> 02:12.060 Hey, Anna, I just, I don't want to worry you, but I'm... 02:12.060 --> 02:19.220 Somehow, John gets himself a lift, which takes him to the hospital. 02:20.320 --> 02:23.660 An ER doctor rushes over to him, takes a look at him, and asks, 02:23.840 --> 02:24.680 Are you on drugs? 02:25.480 --> 02:26.760 John shakes his head no. 02:28.340 --> 02:32.360 Doctors find three cell phones on him, and a White House ID badge. 02:33.200 --> 02:36.180 A few hours pass, and John regains his speech. 02:36.880 --> 02:40.260 The doctors suspect he had a massive migraine with aura. 02:40.260 --> 02:44.080 In other words, a bad fucking headache. 02:49.580 --> 02:51.560 He has no idea what's going on. 02:52.240 --> 02:54.960 But eventually, a possibility presents itself. 02:55.740 --> 02:58.660 One that even by his own admission is hard to imagine. 02:59.880 --> 03:02.380 Because of his job with the National Security Council, 03:02.900 --> 03:05.460 he has access to very sensitive information 03:05.460 --> 03:09.920 about some of the most bizarre health anomalies of our time. 03:10.260 --> 03:15.860 There has been a significant increase in reports of health incidents 03:15.860 --> 03:19.500 affecting U.S. spies and diplomats in recent months. 03:19.500 --> 03:25.020 What John realized was that what he experienced is eerily similar 03:25.020 --> 03:30.500 to the symptoms reported by spies and diplomats in Cuba, in China, in Russia. 03:31.100 --> 03:37.740 A range of debilitating symptoms, including headaches, nausea, vertigo, trouble seeing or hearing. 03:38.100 --> 03:40.420 So he wonders, is that what this is? 03:40.420 --> 03:43.800 Suspected cases have spread across more than half a dozen countries. 03:43.800 --> 03:47.680 More than 130 possible cases now reported across the globe. 03:48.060 --> 03:53.040 He and his colleagues begin to think maybe what happened to him wasn't a massive migraine. 03:53.700 --> 03:55.620 Maybe it's Havana syndrome. 03:56.020 --> 03:59.400 Some have even been diagnosed with traumatic brain injuries. 03:59.780 --> 04:03.300 But what or who is causing the symptoms is still unknown. 04:03.300 --> 04:05.840 The first attacks happened in Havana, Cuba. 04:08.000 --> 04:09.440 I'm Adam Entis. 04:09.980 --> 04:11.000 And I'm John Lee Anderson. 04:11.900 --> 04:15.240 From Vice World News, this is Havana Syndrome. 04:15.240 --> 04:44.420 Episode 1, Get Off the X. 04:45.240 --> 04:50.860 So, can we just start with, when did you first hear about Havana Syndrome? 04:51.440 --> 04:54.900 I'd had a coffee with the source and he told me something was brewing in Havana. 04:55.220 --> 04:57.300 But that was a week or two before the story broke. 04:57.440 --> 05:01.820 So, some U.S. government personnel who were working at our embassy in Havana, Cuba, 05:02.340 --> 05:07.200 they've reported some incidents which have caused a variety of physical symptoms. 05:07.780 --> 05:10.140 Okay, so just to give the audience a little background here. 05:10.140 --> 05:13.300 About a year after the news broke, in November 2018, 05:14.080 --> 05:17.100 you and John Lee Anderson published a story together in The New Yorker, 05:17.240 --> 05:21.100 which really becomes the definitive piece on the mystery of the Havana Syndrome. 05:21.640 --> 05:22.960 How did you all start working together? 05:23.340 --> 05:25.060 I knew I wanted to do this story. 05:25.340 --> 05:28.360 The intelligence community in the world of spycraft is my wheelhouse. 05:28.720 --> 05:31.200 But I had absolutely no connections in Cuba at all. 05:31.620 --> 05:33.920 So I talked to my editor, David Remnick, about it. 05:33.920 --> 05:36.000 And he told me to get in touch with John Lee. 05:37.820 --> 05:41.120 I know of no reporter who knows Cuba better than John Lee. 05:41.580 --> 05:43.760 He lived and reported in Cuba for years. 05:44.000 --> 05:47.760 And he wrote the definitive book on the life of revolutionary Jay Guevara. 05:48.440 --> 05:53.140 When Adam called me, I was excited at the prospect of working on the story. 05:53.780 --> 05:56.060 He's obviously a phenomenal reporter in his own right. 05:56.760 --> 06:00.540 Just the year before, he'd won the Pulitzer for his reporting on the Russia investigation. 06:00.540 --> 06:04.340 I thought, great, with Adam's background reporting on espionage 06:04.340 --> 06:08.080 and my knowledge of Cuba, it could be fun and we could make a great team. 06:12.300 --> 06:14.160 When we started our reporting on this, 06:14.420 --> 06:17.760 what we discovered is that there was a severe lack of understanding and agreement 06:17.760 --> 06:22.460 among people within the U.S. government as to what the Havana Syndrome even was. 06:23.140 --> 06:26.940 A lot of them had their suspicions concerning who or what was behind it, 06:27.240 --> 06:28.340 but didn't know for sure. 06:28.340 --> 06:32.180 What was clear was that the incidents had huge implications. 06:33.220 --> 06:37.340 Could the U.S. no longer keep its diplomats and spies around the world safe? 06:38.440 --> 06:43.500 But for the longest time, it was impossible for me to find a single victim of this mystery illness 06:43.500 --> 06:46.180 who would talk to us about their experience. 06:47.640 --> 06:49.520 Until I found Audrey Lee. 06:49.520 --> 06:58.560 Long fucking day. 07:02.560 --> 07:05.580 Man, you're just sitting in here in the heat without the window down? 07:05.660 --> 07:07.240 You just really like the heat that much, Adam? 07:08.080 --> 07:08.600 I don't mind. 07:09.680 --> 07:11.160 Southern Californian guy, huh? 07:11.160 --> 07:13.540 So, where are we right now, Adam? 07:13.960 --> 07:19.420 We are in Roanoke, Virginia, and we're heading to the home of an American diplomat. 07:19.800 --> 07:22.160 All the calls that we've had have been on the phone. 07:22.560 --> 07:24.360 This is the first meeting we've had face-to-face. 07:26.420 --> 07:29.420 Audrey Lee is a pseudonym that we used for the article. 07:30.140 --> 07:31.860 She didn't even tell me her real name. 07:31.860 --> 07:37.260 At first, she would only talk to me on the phone and wouldn't even tell me where she was. 07:38.860 --> 07:42.400 I didn't really know much about her, other than she was a diplomat, 07:42.680 --> 07:47.660 a consular official at the U.S. Embassy in Havana from 2015 to 2017. 07:48.620 --> 07:53.580 But the secrecy around this story made me question whether she really worked for the State Department 07:53.580 --> 07:55.240 or whether she was a spy. 07:55.720 --> 07:56.100 Hi. 07:56.120 --> 07:56.480 Hello. 07:56.800 --> 07:57.200 Sorry. 07:57.540 --> 07:58.580 Come on in, please. 07:59.080 --> 08:00.640 We're double-vaxxed and everything. 08:00.640 --> 08:01.900 Hi, I'm Adam. 08:02.160 --> 08:05.680 I'd known her for three years before she agreed to meet with me. 08:05.760 --> 08:08.860 Oh, yeah, we should also talk about names. 08:09.040 --> 08:11.500 Along with our producer, Jessie Alejandro Cottrell. 08:11.540 --> 08:12.160 What do you want to do? 08:13.780 --> 08:19.580 So, I am in a much better place in terms of using my name now than I was the last time we spoke. 08:19.700 --> 08:22.100 So, if you want, we can go with that. 08:23.980 --> 08:29.480 And that's when Audrey, to my surprise, agreed to have us reveal her true identity. 08:29.480 --> 08:31.080 I'm Tina Onifer. 08:31.400 --> 08:34.360 I'm a career Foreign Service officer with the Department of State. 08:36.920 --> 08:38.220 Okay, so not a spy. 08:38.640 --> 08:41.540 But she is a very experienced Foreign Service officer. 08:42.280 --> 08:43.580 Tina's in her early 50s. 08:44.140 --> 08:44.580 Blonde. 08:45.020 --> 08:46.180 Super friendly and welcoming. 08:46.740 --> 08:48.180 But she's got this look about her. 08:48.620 --> 08:49.740 Her eyes look tired. 08:50.220 --> 08:52.660 When we meet her, she seems almost out of breath. 08:52.660 --> 08:53.540 So, here we are. 08:54.020 --> 08:54.720 That's my husband. 08:54.820 --> 08:55.220 He's working. 08:55.360 --> 08:57.440 He's in the middle of a work call right now. 08:57.500 --> 08:58.420 So, please come on through. 08:59.540 --> 09:07.880 In early 2017, Tina's living with her husband and 12-year-old twins in a quiet neighborhood in Havana, Cuba, called Cubana Can. 09:08.120 --> 09:13.880 It's the neighborhood where many foreign diplomats, and also the spies pretending to be diplomats, live. 09:15.320 --> 09:17.940 It's a leafy suburb on the west end of the city. 09:18.200 --> 09:20.120 Lots of villas and comfortable houses. 09:20.600 --> 09:24.920 And also some mansions built in the 40s and 50s, just before the Revolution. 09:25.820 --> 09:29.800 Tina and her family get to stay in an even nicer home than some of her colleagues. 09:29.800 --> 09:37.980 The Cuban police maintain sentry booths throughout the neighborhood to keep a close eye on the foreigners, as well as to keep the place secure. 09:38.500 --> 09:40.940 There is extra vigilance wherever Americans live. 09:41.780 --> 09:50.480 And so, in the second year of her posting, Tina and her family are living in this big house with a backyard full of tropical flowers and mango trees. 09:50.960 --> 09:56.440 This is one of the most troubling interviews I've done, partly because Tina has had health problems for years. 09:56.440 --> 10:02.820 And even though we'd spoken on the phone and I knew she was sick, I didn't realize how debilitating her condition was. 10:03.320 --> 10:10.120 Now, if you could tell me the story of the event, you know, if I remember right, your husband was away on business at the time. 10:10.320 --> 10:12.960 You know, you maybe start the story when you're coming home from work. 10:14.740 --> 10:15.140 Sure. 10:15.820 --> 10:22.560 Well, I don't remember coming home from work that day, unfortunately, but I must have come home relatively early, 10:22.560 --> 10:25.840 because I usually did when he was gone, just so the kids had somebody there. 10:28.880 --> 10:30.820 We had pasta for dinner. 10:32.780 --> 10:38.700 Always a favorite for the kids, and it's an easy, lazy mama meal for me when my husband isn't there, 10:38.880 --> 10:40.220 who's a much better cook than I am. 10:40.700 --> 10:43.520 So we had pasta, and we had already eaten. 10:44.320 --> 10:47.780 After dinner, the kids go upstairs to play, and Tina cleans up. 10:47.780 --> 10:53.900 So it's probably a little bit after 8, not 100% sure, but just based on where the kids are. 10:55.340 --> 10:59.280 Standing at the kitchen window, washing the dishes, and I know I'm washing the big pasta pox. 10:59.380 --> 11:00.600 It's heavy in my hands. 11:00.640 --> 11:02.460 I can actually feel it when I think about it. 11:02.940 --> 11:07.160 So the water's running, which is the only real sound that I can hear. 11:08.160 --> 11:09.000 Tina's at the sink. 11:09.360 --> 11:10.260 The lights are on. 11:10.620 --> 11:13.140 It's around 8 o'clock, so it's dark outside. 11:13.140 --> 11:19.580 She can't see them, but she knows the Cuban police are stationed at the guard post in front of her neighbor's house. 11:20.180 --> 11:27.300 And right in the midst of that pot washing is when I felt it. 11:28.480 --> 11:31.000 I didn't hear anything except the water running. 11:32.080 --> 11:38.840 The sensation that I felt was an overwhelming sense of inexplicable anxiety. 11:39.060 --> 11:40.360 There was no reason for it. 11:40.360 --> 11:42.400 I was not stressed at all. 11:43.140 --> 11:50.340 And there was incredible pressure and pain in my head and my ears. 11:51.000 --> 11:53.560 I'd never felt anything like that before. 11:53.960 --> 11:56.060 I felt paralyzed. 11:57.520 --> 12:01.360 And I think it's just sort of one of those, you're in a dream and you can't move. 12:01.640 --> 12:02.980 That's kind of how it felt. 12:05.600 --> 12:07.200 It was the most bizarre feeling. 12:07.200 --> 12:16.680 It went on for who knows how long. 12:17.040 --> 12:18.620 Maybe a couple of minutes. 12:18.620 --> 12:31.520 But in the midst of it, in the midst of just standing there gripped in all of this pain and anxiety, 12:32.020 --> 12:35.080 I did remember hearing the security officer. 12:35.220 --> 12:37.260 His voice is ringing in my head. 12:37.260 --> 12:47.540 Tina's now remembering how she had recently overheard a security officer warning her colleagues that if they ever thought something or someone was after them, 12:47.540 --> 12:54.400 that they should immediately get off the X, meaning get away from the site, the X, where you think you're being targeted. 12:54.400 --> 13:02.220 Saying, get off the X, move to a different part of the house, put something between you and the source of whatever's trying to harm you. 13:02.220 --> 13:08.800 As soon as I recalled those words, I moved, and I moved quickly. 13:09.460 --> 13:16.400 And I went into, maybe 15 feet away, into the family room, which has kind of oddly angled walls. 13:16.840 --> 13:21.260 So I put sort of a wall and a half between myself and what I assumed was the source, 13:21.400 --> 13:24.460 which was either the kitchen window or the open screen door next to the kitchen window. 13:27.040 --> 13:30.440 And all of a sudden, it was like a spell had been broken. 13:30.440 --> 13:32.980 The anxiety went away immediately. 13:33.800 --> 13:36.100 The pressure reduced as well. 13:38.080 --> 13:42.680 And I'm just trying to get a hold of myself, my thoughts. 13:42.860 --> 13:45.320 I'm very confused, very disoriented still. 13:46.240 --> 13:50.300 And in the midst of all of that, I remembered that the kids are upstairs. 13:51.280 --> 13:53.160 And I freak out. 13:54.000 --> 13:58.460 Because now all of a sudden, I realize my kids might have just gotten hit by that thing. 13:58.460 --> 14:00.780 She runs up the stairs. 14:01.100 --> 14:09.360 Turn to my left, and they're sitting in their bedroom on the floor, playing a board game together, of all things. 14:10.360 --> 14:15.480 I have never felt such relief in my life as when I saw them there. 14:15.480 --> 14:19.520 And so I'm trying to kind of calm down and collect myself a little bit. 14:19.600 --> 14:21.060 Hey, that was weird. 14:21.200 --> 14:22.500 Did you guys feel that? 14:22.980 --> 14:24.360 Did you hear anything? 14:24.660 --> 14:26.120 That was really interesting, wasn't it? 14:26.220 --> 14:27.500 They looked at me like I was crazy. 14:27.600 --> 14:29.240 They had no idea what I was talking about. 14:29.660 --> 14:32.960 And I just walked down the hall and went into the bedroom. 14:33.240 --> 14:35.000 And I lay down, and that was it. 14:35.100 --> 14:36.340 I didn't sleep. 14:36.960 --> 14:39.400 But I also just, I couldn't focus on anything. 14:39.400 --> 14:43.160 I was just mentally adrift. 14:55.160 --> 14:58.600 The next morning, you come down, and you're fixing breakfast. 14:58.740 --> 15:01.800 I was wondering if you can tell me about fixing breakfast for the kids. 15:02.080 --> 15:04.380 It wasn't so much fixing breakfast as facilitating. 15:04.380 --> 15:09.020 My son is health-obsessed. 15:10.420 --> 15:15.700 And so I think he was probably trying to torment his sister with the ingredients of the cereal she was consuming. 15:16.140 --> 15:18.220 And he asked me if I wouldn't mind reading them off. 15:18.320 --> 15:20.160 Day before, no problem. 15:20.400 --> 15:24.920 I was kind of vain about my eyesight because I was, you know, in my late 40s, and I still didn't need glasses. 15:25.040 --> 15:26.500 I could still read everything just fine. 15:27.280 --> 15:31.300 And so I would laugh at my peers and be like, ha, no glasses for me. 15:31.300 --> 15:34.660 And he asked me if I would read the ingredients on the side of the cereal box. 15:34.760 --> 15:35.540 Sure, of course. 15:35.640 --> 15:36.320 Took it down. 15:36.720 --> 15:37.260 Looked at it. 15:37.500 --> 15:40.400 It's blurry. 15:43.640 --> 15:45.300 I can't read anything. 15:46.020 --> 15:47.000 Why can't I read anything? 15:47.080 --> 15:48.120 And I'm moving it around. 15:48.220 --> 15:57.380 You know how older people do that when they're trying to focus on something closer, further away, this way, that way, blinking my eyes, adjusting my gaze, adjusting my head tilt. 15:58.520 --> 15:58.920 Nothing. 15:59.180 --> 15:59.740 It was a blur. 16:00.460 --> 16:01.140 Absolute blur. 16:01.300 --> 16:09.480 And that was when I realized something was wrong. 16:09.480 --> 16:30.760 There's a backstory to what happened in Tina's kitchen. 16:31.160 --> 16:32.140 A history here. 16:32.880 --> 16:36.980 Two and a half years before that night, in December 2014. 16:36.980 --> 16:37.940 Good afternoon. 16:39.640 --> 16:44.260 Today, the United States of America is changing its relationship with the people of Cuba. 16:45.160 --> 16:51.440 President Obama makes a surprise televised announcement that he's ordering the full restoration of diplomatic ties with Cuba. 16:51.720 --> 16:56.520 We will end an outdated approach that for decades has failed to advance our interests. 16:57.220 --> 17:01.260 And instead, we will begin to normalize relations between our two countries. 17:01.260 --> 17:09.440 At the same time, in Havana, on Cuban state television… 17:09.440 --> 17:17.780 President Raul Castro informs the Cuban people of the news, one of the last standing vestiges of the Cold War is seemingly being pulled down in the Americas. 17:17.780 --> 17:28.740 The world learns that the two countries have been engaged in secret talks for months, and now there are plans to fully reopen the Cuban embassy in Washington, as well as the U.S. embassy in Havana. 17:28.740 --> 17:37.140 They shut the embassy in 1961, two years after the Cuban Revolution had dramatically changed the relationship between the two countries. 17:37.860 --> 17:46.920 But since the 70s, the Americans had maintained a bare-bones diplomatic mission where people could do basic things like process visas, stuff like that. 17:46.920 --> 17:59.600 But with Obama's announcement, the two countries would fully restore relations, the fancy term diplomats like to use for this international reunion is rapprochement. 18:00.200 --> 18:06.940 When you heard the news that there was rapprochement going on, what was that like? 18:07.460 --> 18:10.700 Hearing the news? It was pretty thrilling. 18:10.700 --> 18:19.060 For a foreign service officer like Tina, the full restoration of diplomatic relations is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. 18:19.800 --> 18:26.780 A friend of mine texted saying, dude, turn your TV on now. It was on. It was being announced on television. 18:27.140 --> 18:33.180 She'll be part of a staff that helps steer a historic opening. It will be hard work, but Tina's thrilled. 18:33.180 --> 18:42.860 And I was shocked that this place I thought I was going to go to that was going to be super closed off and super isolated, 18:43.320 --> 18:47.160 all of a sudden it's going to be an embassy and it's going to be a big deal and rapprochement. 18:47.400 --> 18:50.520 And we're going to be best friends with the Cubans and everything's going to be great and everything's going to be wonderful. 18:50.660 --> 18:53.480 Yeah, I can't wait to go. That was it. 18:53.480 --> 19:01.400 As the number two consular official at the embassy, her job is to manage teams that help American citizens abroad. 19:01.620 --> 19:05.820 Making sure visa adjudications are running the way they're supposed to, 19:05.920 --> 19:09.320 making sure the American Citizen Services section has everything they need. 19:09.660 --> 19:14.040 If there's an American citizen emergency, obviously everyone drops everything and focuses on that. 19:14.520 --> 19:19.200 If you're a U.S. citizen who traveled to Cuba and lost your passport and need help getting home, 19:19.200 --> 19:23.120 or if you just got arrested after a drunken fight at a rum bar, 19:23.660 --> 19:26.000 Tina's team would be your one phone call from jail. 19:31.860 --> 19:33.640 There is much work to be done. 19:34.200 --> 19:37.720 With the loosened travel restrictions authorized by the Obama administration, 19:38.420 --> 19:42.340 U.S. tourists are about to flood the island for the first time since JFK was in office. 19:42.860 --> 19:44.540 It's an incredible about-face. 19:44.540 --> 19:49.940 Because until this point, the state of U.S.-Cuban relations had almost been suspended in time. 19:51.160 --> 19:56.440 In Havana, the U.S. embassy building itself had slowly deteriorated over the decades. 19:56.940 --> 20:01.380 It's located on the city's famous waterfront promenade known as the Malecon. 20:01.380 --> 20:06.120 I remember seeing six feet waves splashing into the building. 20:06.240 --> 20:09.960 I was in the building. It was a Saturday because we were doing... 20:09.960 --> 20:13.060 That's former U.S. ambassador to Cuba, Jeff De Laurentiis, 20:13.360 --> 20:16.840 remembering what it was like at the beleaguered embassy building in 1993, 20:17.580 --> 20:19.740 during the so-called storm of the century. 20:20.080 --> 20:22.200 And was literally stuck there overnight. 20:23.180 --> 20:29.300 Fidel Castro was on the radio talking about how he was going to rescue folks in buildings 20:29.300 --> 20:30.560 that were along the Malecon. 20:30.560 --> 20:34.900 And, of course, we were all joking that the U.S. intersection would be the last building in Havana 20:34.900 --> 20:37.280 that would ever get rescued in this circumstance. 20:37.280 --> 20:42.740 Which means half a century of tensions and counterintelligence efforts 20:42.740 --> 20:45.580 are also about to be brought to the surface. 20:46.960 --> 20:51.560 For years, the U.S. and Cuba had not only been suspicious of each other, 20:52.000 --> 20:52.740 they were enemies. 20:53.300 --> 20:58.340 Short of war, they engaged in some of the most ambitious spy operations against each other. 20:58.960 --> 21:01.800 Cuba could really get under the CIA's skin. 21:02.260 --> 21:04.940 Cuban intelligence is legendary in the spy world. 21:04.940 --> 21:07.640 They're particularly good at recruiting Americans 21:07.640 --> 21:12.040 and preventing the CIA from recruiting Cuban sources. 21:12.620 --> 21:14.680 I had a neighbor in Havana, where I lived for years, 21:14.900 --> 21:19.140 who'd been sent to the U.S. right after the revolution as a counterintelligence plant. 21:19.540 --> 21:20.540 She was a double agent. 21:21.360 --> 21:24.720 One of the advantages the Cubans had was an ideological one. 21:25.380 --> 21:29.200 There were Americans who were very critical of American policy and Latin America and elsewhere, 21:29.200 --> 21:31.720 and felt admiration for the Cuban cause. 21:31.980 --> 21:37.320 Some of these people felt such sympathy that they crossed the line and started working for the Cubans. 21:37.880 --> 21:41.720 And a few ultimately reached very high levels within the intelligence community. 21:42.720 --> 21:46.660 So that 2014 announcement of renewed diplomatic relations 21:46.660 --> 21:50.720 was about to create some new opportunities for spies on both sides. 21:50.720 --> 21:54.500 The CIA already had a station in Havana. 21:55.040 --> 21:58.420 It was located within the U.S. Embassy building, but it was very small. 21:58.920 --> 22:00.220 Only three or four officers, 22:00.700 --> 22:03.080 who couldn't do much intelligence gathering on the island 22:03.080 --> 22:06.360 because Cuban counterintelligence was so good at thwarting them. 22:07.060 --> 22:10.020 The Cuban government also had the embassy buildings surrounded. 22:10.660 --> 22:12.840 They handpicked the guards stationed outside. 22:13.500 --> 22:18.360 The U.S. also assumed that the local janitorial and maintenance staff were informants too. 22:18.360 --> 22:23.320 But the CIA tried the best it could to do its work without being discovered. 22:23.860 --> 22:27.820 Almost all the CIA officers in Havana operated under diplomatic cover. 22:28.520 --> 22:30.240 They would work at the embassy during the day, 22:30.500 --> 22:33.680 then sneak through a back staircase that would take them to the station, 22:34.160 --> 22:37.200 located behind an unmarked door with a special lock. 22:38.080 --> 22:41.620 And no outsiders were allowed to go past the second floor of the embassy 22:41.620 --> 22:46.400 without being escorted for fear that they would try to locate and bug the station. 22:46.400 --> 22:51.800 We asked the CIA for official comment on their security situation at the embassy, 22:52.080 --> 22:52.940 and they declined. 22:53.980 --> 22:55.820 But Tina has nothing to do with any of that. 22:56.460 --> 23:00.000 Her job is to make sure U.S. citizens are safe and having fun in Havana. 23:00.560 --> 23:01.880 Her kids start school there, 23:02.220 --> 23:03.600 she and her husband host parties 23:03.600 --> 23:06.080 and make friends with other diplomats in the area. 23:06.620 --> 23:08.040 It all feels quite normal. 23:10.220 --> 23:11.860 Except for the parts that aren't. 23:11.860 --> 23:15.980 Because if you're a U.S. spy, or even a diplomat in Cuba, 23:16.680 --> 23:18.120 you know you're being watched. 23:18.540 --> 23:22.280 We had heard stories of harassment, and we just hadn't experienced it. 23:22.880 --> 23:25.420 We didn't have, you know, our dogs didn't get poisoned, 23:25.820 --> 23:29.080 and we didn't find, you know, presents left behind in the toilet. 23:29.540 --> 23:30.500 Turds in the toilet. 23:30.840 --> 23:34.800 It's one of the most common forms of harassment from Cuban counterintelligence. 23:34.800 --> 23:36.120 Because it's ambiguous. 23:36.760 --> 23:38.220 Maybe your wife forgot to flush. 23:38.700 --> 23:39.640 Or your housekeeper. 23:40.180 --> 23:43.300 Or it's a spy letting you know we're watching you. 23:43.600 --> 23:46.660 And we didn't have our tires slashed or anything like that. 23:46.700 --> 23:48.480 And we had heard other people tell these horrible stories. 23:48.560 --> 23:50.420 We had never experienced any of it. 23:50.820 --> 23:52.080 In certain parts of the world, 23:52.460 --> 23:54.600 this kind of harassment is par for the course. 23:55.200 --> 23:57.260 Usually it's done in this ambiguous way 23:57.260 --> 23:59.640 that leaves room for plausible deniability. 23:59.980 --> 24:02.040 Oh, did someone enter my house through the window? 24:02.040 --> 24:03.760 Or did I leave the window open? 24:04.480 --> 24:06.960 But other times, it's unambiguous. 24:07.620 --> 24:10.260 An FBI officer based in Israel once told me 24:10.260 --> 24:12.060 that he remembers coming home 24:12.060 --> 24:14.560 and finding that someone had strung up 24:14.560 --> 24:17.280 a bunch of condoms across his apartment ceiling. 24:17.840 --> 24:18.780 As if trying to say, 24:18.880 --> 24:19.940 welcome to your new assignment. 24:20.580 --> 24:21.980 It's juvenile, but effective. 24:22.800 --> 24:25.860 It's the job of the spies to keep track of this kind of stuff. 24:27.560 --> 24:30.980 That's not really something that Tina spends a lot of time thinking about. 24:32.040 --> 24:35.160 But one day, she actually did have her own weird experience. 24:35.480 --> 24:39.240 So it had to have been that last year, 2016 to 2017, that we were there. 24:39.580 --> 24:40.740 Something that may have been nothing 24:40.740 --> 24:43.640 or could have been a sign that the Cubans wanted her to know 24:43.640 --> 24:44.960 that she was being watched. 24:45.480 --> 24:48.580 We got home and something smelled just dreadful. 24:49.420 --> 24:52.940 And we, of course, went straight to the fridges and the freezer 24:52.940 --> 24:54.720 and the big standing freezer, 24:54.900 --> 24:57.000 which is, of course, where we stored all of our meat 24:57.000 --> 24:58.860 because you buy your meat whenever you can get it 24:58.860 --> 24:59.660 and then you freeze it. 25:00.680 --> 25:02.280 And it had been turned off. 25:02.400 --> 25:04.780 It had been unplugged and turned off. 25:05.240 --> 25:06.340 Tina takes it in stride. 25:06.660 --> 25:08.920 Maybe one of her kids accidentally unplugged the fridge. 25:09.440 --> 25:10.800 It's impossible to know for sure. 25:11.160 --> 25:13.100 I think we just sort of chuckled and said, 25:13.160 --> 25:13.940 oh, there it is. 25:14.080 --> 25:14.760 We got one. 25:15.220 --> 25:17.060 That was our one thing. 25:17.140 --> 25:19.500 And that was the only time anything like that happened 25:19.500 --> 25:21.420 until, you know. 25:21.420 --> 25:27.920 So, you know, obviously in the podcast, 25:28.120 --> 25:30.620 we're going to tell the story of the beginning of Havana Syndrome, 25:30.820 --> 25:31.940 the first reported cases. 25:32.240 --> 25:35.680 And I was wondering what you remember hearing at the water cooler. 25:40.600 --> 25:41.880 Here's where it all goes downhill. 25:49.060 --> 25:50.220 That's after the break. 25:51.420 --> 26:04.960 This back-to-school season, one thing is clear. 26:05.240 --> 26:06.880 Kids need a way to stay connected. 26:07.200 --> 26:09.960 Between pickups, practices, and after-school activities, 26:10.260 --> 26:11.620 having a phone is a must. 26:11.860 --> 26:14.620 But it shouldn't come at the cost of their mental health. 26:14.760 --> 26:16.580 The youth mental health crisis is growing 26:16.580 --> 26:18.660 and social media is a major driver. 26:18.660 --> 26:21.380 Teens are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, 26:21.600 --> 26:24.300 and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, 26:24.520 --> 26:26.220 and even suicidal thoughts. 26:26.460 --> 26:27.820 That's where Gab comes in. 26:28.060 --> 26:30.120 Gab offers kids-safe phones and watches 26:30.120 --> 26:32.380 with no internet or social media apps 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Live makes it easy. 27:14.400 --> 27:16.400 Streaming gameplay, scouting new gear, 27:16.700 --> 27:19.120 chatting, and shopping all at the same time? 27:19.380 --> 27:21.140 That's my kind of multitasking. 27:21.420 --> 27:23.700 And it all happens on Amazon Live. 27:23.920 --> 27:26.800 Shop on Amazon Live by searching Amazon Live 27:26.800 --> 27:28.360 in the Amazon Shopping app. 27:28.420 --> 27:30.540 And follow your favorite creators today. 27:30.540 --> 27:33.100 Summer's here, and you can now get almost anything you need 27:33.100 --> 27:34.180 delivered with Uber Eats. 27:34.360 --> 27:35.280 What do we mean by almost? 27:35.600 --> 27:37.120 You can't get a well-groomed lawn delivered, 27:37.280 --> 27:39.040 but you can get chicken parmesan delivered. 27:39.260 --> 27:40.060 Sunshine? No. 27:40.220 --> 27:41.100 Some wine? Yes. 27:41.260 --> 27:43.580 Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. 27:43.700 --> 27:44.140 Order now. 27:44.280 --> 27:45.100 Alcohol in select markets. 27:45.180 --> 27:45.800 See app for details. 27:45.800 --> 28:04.900 So, I honestly don't remember the first thing I heard. 28:05.620 --> 28:08.480 But I knew that several people had been sent to Miami 28:08.480 --> 28:09.620 for medical evaluations. 28:09.620 --> 28:13.900 Um, it was all very unclear why. 28:14.900 --> 28:18.260 One day, a few weeks before the episode in Tina's kitchen, 28:18.700 --> 28:21.220 she remembers getting pulled into a private meeting 28:21.220 --> 28:22.560 with the Consul General, 28:22.780 --> 28:25.220 and a colleague who had just returned from Miami. 28:25.220 --> 28:32.620 And this person described everything in pretty extensive detail. 28:33.960 --> 28:37.500 This is Tina's first indication outside the rumor mill 28:37.500 --> 28:40.400 that something is indeed amiss at the embassy. 28:41.040 --> 28:44.000 At least two of her colleagues have suddenly come down 28:44.000 --> 28:46.540 with headaches, nausea, vertigo, 28:46.900 --> 28:50.260 and they had heard a strange buzzing sound before they got sick. 28:50.460 --> 28:52.020 As we were sitting there listening, 28:52.020 --> 28:53.960 he and I just kept looking at each other like, 28:54.140 --> 28:55.660 is this, is this for real? 28:56.180 --> 28:57.100 Is this a thing? 28:57.780 --> 28:58.940 This doesn't make any sense. 28:59.040 --> 29:00.000 Everything was going great. 29:00.140 --> 29:01.900 Why? What? What is happening? 29:03.000 --> 29:06.020 Tina and her boss agree to keep the information confidential 29:06.020 --> 29:08.460 because they don't want to start a panic at the embassy. 29:09.060 --> 29:12.120 Pretty soon, wild theories start floating around at the embassy, 29:12.520 --> 29:14.180 especially amongst those with children. 29:14.980 --> 29:16.920 A lot of them go to school together in Havana, 29:17.080 --> 29:19.740 and it becomes a source of gossip amongst the parents. 29:19.740 --> 29:23.220 Some people think that maybe this is just food poisoning, 29:23.600 --> 29:26.640 while others are speculating that it could be something far more sinister, 29:27.240 --> 29:30.380 that someone might actually be targeting U.S. officials 29:30.380 --> 29:31.940 with some kind of secret weapon. 29:34.160 --> 29:35.260 Were you scared? 29:36.020 --> 29:36.880 Not at all. 29:37.260 --> 29:39.000 I mean, scared for my colleagues, yes. 29:39.540 --> 29:41.320 Personally or for my family, no. 29:41.780 --> 29:45.200 Because at that point, I think we all had an idea in our heads 29:45.200 --> 29:46.620 of who was being targeted. 29:47.260 --> 29:50.060 And it was, you know, folks who were more on the security side. 29:50.800 --> 29:52.500 Or not me. 29:54.140 --> 29:55.520 Nobody's going to try to recruit me. 29:55.580 --> 29:57.720 I'm not one of the people that has special information 29:57.720 --> 29:58.820 that they're interested in. 29:59.280 --> 30:02.260 Nobody really cares about my work or what I do. 30:02.260 --> 30:06.640 And then the incident in Tina's kitchen happens. 30:07.280 --> 30:10.520 Overwhelming sense of inexplicable anxiety, 30:10.760 --> 30:13.700 incredible pressure and pain in my head and my ears. 30:13.780 --> 30:15.680 I've never felt anything like that before. 30:19.400 --> 30:21.680 But even though Tina has this lingering headache, 30:22.120 --> 30:24.260 she doesn't link it back to the mass illnesses 30:24.260 --> 30:25.560 and what her boss told her. 30:26.080 --> 30:27.880 Her first reaction is denial. 30:27.880 --> 30:32.780 So you had this experience and you have these implications 30:32.780 --> 30:35.540 for your health that you clearly register. 30:36.260 --> 30:38.000 What do you do with this information? 30:39.780 --> 30:45.360 Nothing is the answer for a solid month and change. 30:45.500 --> 30:46.260 Absolutely nothing. 30:46.520 --> 30:48.600 I didn't say anything to anyone, not even my husband. 30:49.460 --> 30:51.280 Crisis Tina takes over at that moment. 30:51.520 --> 30:53.620 And I shut down completely. 30:53.860 --> 30:54.700 I was just fine. 30:54.780 --> 30:55.440 I'm fine. 30:55.640 --> 30:56.760 There's nothing wrong. 30:56.760 --> 30:58.240 There's nothing to see here. 30:58.540 --> 30:59.680 Everything is fine. 30:59.940 --> 31:00.260 Move along. 31:01.580 --> 31:05.480 I told myself that I had imagined it, 31:05.700 --> 31:06.680 that it was psychological. 31:07.200 --> 31:08.240 I had heard the rumors. 31:08.460 --> 31:09.980 I was clearly affected by them. 31:11.180 --> 31:14.880 And so now my body is manifesting symptoms 31:14.880 --> 31:16.220 that I don't actually have. 31:16.920 --> 31:18.900 But she's tired all the time. 31:19.380 --> 31:20.620 And of course I'm not sleeping. 31:21.180 --> 31:22.820 Her headaches are getting worse. 31:23.220 --> 31:24.680 And she's losing her memory. 31:24.680 --> 31:27.020 I think my son even mentioned something. 31:27.200 --> 31:28.820 You don't normally sound stupid, Mama. 31:29.020 --> 31:31.680 You sound kind of, you know, slow. 31:33.780 --> 31:35.140 Well, thanks, kiddo. 31:35.320 --> 31:37.460 But yeah, yeah. 31:37.580 --> 31:38.860 Mama's just a little tired. 31:39.720 --> 31:41.280 And most unsettling for Tina, 31:41.760 --> 31:43.100 she can't keep up at work. 31:43.300 --> 31:44.200 I would read emails. 31:44.640 --> 31:45.820 And by the time I would get to the end, 31:45.860 --> 31:48.120 I wouldn't remember a single thing about what I had just read. 31:48.840 --> 31:51.460 Words would kind of jump a little bit on the screen. 31:51.460 --> 31:53.720 Things would move and shake. 31:55.080 --> 31:57.220 And I think everybody saw how I looked. 31:57.760 --> 31:59.260 My boss, the Consul General, 31:59.380 --> 32:00.800 called it the elephant in the room 32:00.800 --> 32:02.740 because I wasn't talking about it with anyone, 32:02.880 --> 32:03.900 but I looked like a zombie. 32:04.020 --> 32:05.100 I looked like absolute crap. 32:05.920 --> 32:07.080 This goes on for weeks. 32:07.620 --> 32:09.060 Tina's symptoms are getting worse. 32:09.560 --> 32:10.980 But she still doesn't tell anyone. 32:11.240 --> 32:13.480 I do remember thinking to myself 32:13.480 --> 32:17.440 that I don't want to contribute to the rumor mill. 32:17.440 --> 32:19.180 I don't want to let everybody down. 32:19.300 --> 32:21.920 I just want to keep my head down, do my job, 32:21.960 --> 32:22.580 and I'll be fine. 32:22.700 --> 32:24.100 I will absolutely be fine. 32:24.180 --> 32:25.900 I will mind over matter my way out of this, 32:25.980 --> 32:27.620 and I'm just going to keep my mouth shut. 32:31.720 --> 32:32.780 Behind the scenes, 32:33.100 --> 32:35.060 the U.S. government is scratching its head. 32:35.720 --> 32:38.240 In the two months leading up to Tina's kitchen incident 32:38.240 --> 32:39.460 in March 2017, 32:40.100 --> 32:42.540 U.S. intelligence officers stationed in Havana 32:42.540 --> 32:44.120 had reported incidents 32:44.120 --> 32:46.840 in which they felt pulsating pressure in their heads. 32:47.440 --> 32:50.340 These were people who were pretending to be diplomats 32:50.340 --> 32:51.520 working at the embassy, 32:51.980 --> 32:54.040 but who were actually CIA officers. 32:55.060 --> 32:57.500 These officers were prepared to get harassed. 32:58.160 --> 32:59.000 But getting hurt, 32:59.400 --> 33:01.860 that's against the unwritten rules of the spy game. 33:02.600 --> 33:03.920 You can fuck with each other, 33:04.000 --> 33:05.400 but you can't hurt each other. 33:06.260 --> 33:08.440 The CIA officers also reported 33:08.440 --> 33:10.360 that during their strange health incident, 33:10.780 --> 33:13.060 they'd also heard a very loud sound. 33:13.500 --> 33:16.600 Some said the sound was almost like cicadas. 33:17.300 --> 33:18.600 In some cases, 33:19.020 --> 33:20.720 the sound seemed to follow them 33:20.720 --> 33:22.820 wherever they went within their homes, 33:23.000 --> 33:25.920 and it would continue for a period of minutes at least, 33:26.320 --> 33:28.520 until they opened a door to the outside, 33:28.740 --> 33:30.820 at which point the sound would stop. 33:30.820 --> 33:35.540 The CIA isn't sure what to make of the incidents 33:35.540 --> 33:36.960 that the spies were reporting. 33:37.420 --> 33:40.620 They got so sick that they had to seek treatment back in the States. 33:41.500 --> 33:43.100 Then things get weirder. 33:43.640 --> 33:47.300 When the CIA sends officers on temporary assignment to Havana, 33:47.840 --> 33:50.360 even these new arrivals start getting sick 33:50.360 --> 33:51.740 at their hotels. 33:51.740 --> 33:57.120 Doctors cannot identify the source of the illness. 33:57.800 --> 34:00.480 Some of them just start calling it the thing. 34:03.120 --> 34:03.680 Privately, 34:04.380 --> 34:06.760 top U.S. government officials hold Cuba responsible, 34:07.300 --> 34:10.000 because even if Cuba isn't causing these illnesses, 34:10.420 --> 34:13.280 they must at least know who or what is. 34:13.820 --> 34:15.440 They control everything on the island, 34:15.440 --> 34:17.060 but the Cubans say 34:17.060 --> 34:19.980 they have no idea what the Americans are talking about. 34:27.720 --> 34:31.100 By now, the Americans have a real medical mystery on their hands, 34:31.520 --> 34:32.860 one that appears to be spreading. 34:32.860 --> 34:35.660 Is it the result of some new illness? 34:36.240 --> 34:38.020 Or is it the result of a weapon? 34:38.800 --> 34:40.160 The U.S. government doesn't know, 34:40.520 --> 34:42.320 and it's divided about how to respond. 34:43.420 --> 34:44.380 It's 2017, 34:45.140 --> 34:47.860 just a few months into a new presidential administration. 34:48.900 --> 34:49.740 Obama is out, 34:49.900 --> 34:52.220 along with the officials who pushed to restore relations. 34:52.780 --> 34:55.400 And Cuba is dealing with its own change in regime 34:55.400 --> 34:57.660 in the wake of Fidel Castro's death. 34:58.560 --> 35:02.380 And so some CIA officers want to pull their people off the X, 35:02.380 --> 35:04.080 meaning out of Cuba, 35:04.520 --> 35:06.740 because they don't know how to keep them safe anymore 35:06.740 --> 35:07.480 in this environment. 35:09.520 --> 35:10.040 Eventually, 35:10.360 --> 35:13.680 the press finds out about all the mystery illnesses in Cuba 35:13.680 --> 35:15.440 and starts asking questions. 35:15.720 --> 35:18.440 But the Trump administration doesn't have any answers. 35:18.940 --> 35:20.820 And they're starting to get a lot of flack 35:20.820 --> 35:22.780 for not keeping U.S. personnel safe. 35:23.180 --> 35:25.280 So they make an unprecedented decision. 35:27.960 --> 35:30.680 The CIA decides to close its station in Havana, 35:31.180 --> 35:32.360 an extraordinary step. 35:33.240 --> 35:34.920 Even in the most war-torn of places, 35:35.340 --> 35:35.800 Baghdad, 35:35.960 --> 35:36.280 Kabul, 35:36.900 --> 35:38.620 the CIA station has stayed open, 35:39.320 --> 35:40.140 but not in Cuba. 35:41.360 --> 35:42.160 And at this point, 35:42.300 --> 35:42.880 Rex Tillerson, 35:43.280 --> 35:44.320 the Secretary of State, 35:44.680 --> 35:46.500 has little choice but to do the same 35:46.500 --> 35:48.240 and pull his diplomats out. 35:48.580 --> 35:50.700 The U.S. State Department said today, 35:51.140 --> 35:54.440 all but essential American diplomatic staff are going home. 35:54.520 --> 35:56.140 They did some bad things in Cuba. 35:56.140 --> 36:00.120 President Donald Trump seems to blame the Cubans today, 36:00.120 --> 36:02.760 but there's no evidence Cuba was behind this. 36:02.760 --> 36:11.620 It's always amazed me that they had no hard evidence 36:11.620 --> 36:14.280 when they made this huge decision to pull off the island. 36:15.020 --> 36:16.340 Talk about flying blind. 36:16.340 --> 36:20.160 By the end of September 2017, 36:20.760 --> 36:23.100 all non-essential embassy staff are sent home. 36:23.620 --> 36:24.460 Then a month later, 36:24.760 --> 36:25.960 in Washington, D.C., 36:25.960 --> 36:29.440 the U.S. expels an equal number of Cuban diplomats. 36:29.440 --> 36:33.040 After all those efforts to restore relations 36:33.040 --> 36:34.320 just a few years prior, 36:34.720 --> 36:38.200 now the U.S. and Cuba are nearly back to square one. 36:41.940 --> 36:44.080 And this is when things get even crazier. 36:45.040 --> 36:46.700 Despite getting off the X, 36:46.900 --> 36:47.540 leaving Cuba, 36:47.880 --> 36:50.040 American officials report more incidents, 36:50.560 --> 36:51.260 not in Cuba, 36:51.500 --> 36:52.180 but in Russia, 36:52.740 --> 36:53.680 and then in China, 36:54.300 --> 36:55.060 then in Austria, 36:55.560 --> 36:56.260 then in Colombia, 36:56.540 --> 36:57.360 then in Vietnam, 36:57.360 --> 36:58.380 then in Kyrgyzstan, 36:58.580 --> 36:59.420 and more and more. 37:00.140 --> 37:00.880 Around the world, 37:01.040 --> 37:02.060 diplomats and spies 37:02.060 --> 37:03.440 and members of the U.S. military 37:03.440 --> 37:05.720 continue to report mysterious incidents 37:05.720 --> 37:07.920 that get put into the same category 37:07.920 --> 37:09.140 as the bizarre affliction 37:09.140 --> 37:11.020 first reported in Havana, Cuba. 37:11.620 --> 37:13.280 And then the list expands 37:13.280 --> 37:15.120 to include White House staffers 37:15.120 --> 37:17.380 who report incidents first in London 37:17.380 --> 37:20.300 and then within steps of the Oval Office itself. 37:23.300 --> 37:24.360 Yeah, it's me. 37:25.640 --> 37:27.040 I wish I could talk to you. 37:27.040 --> 37:30.660 Something's wrong with me. 37:33.660 --> 37:35.200 It's supposed to change. 37:35.880 --> 37:37.460 Tell me if I'm walking too fast. 37:37.500 --> 37:37.900 No, you're fine. 37:40.380 --> 37:41.000 All right. 37:41.260 --> 37:41.880 All right. 37:42.040 --> 37:44.280 Let's go over to the gate, I guess. 37:44.500 --> 37:44.680 Yep. 37:44.680 --> 37:48.760 So, we're outside the White House. 37:49.400 --> 37:51.520 This is probably the most secure place 37:51.520 --> 37:52.340 on the planet. 37:53.500 --> 37:56.680 There are cameras dangling 37:56.680 --> 38:00.700 from all of the light posts on the street. 38:00.700 --> 38:02.900 If you look to the top of the White House, 38:03.560 --> 38:06.840 you'll see occasionally snipers 38:06.840 --> 38:09.040 with binoculars, you know, 38:09.140 --> 38:10.920 looking out and scanning the crowds 38:10.920 --> 38:11.860 that pass by. 38:13.460 --> 38:15.300 So, obviously, not the kind of place 38:15.300 --> 38:17.580 that you'd expect anything like 38:17.580 --> 38:19.000 what he thinks happened to him here. 38:19.000 --> 38:33.760 At first, it starts as sort of rumors 38:33.760 --> 38:36.100 that there were incidents in Washington, 38:36.380 --> 38:37.380 in the Washington area. 38:38.240 --> 38:39.840 I'll be honest, I was quite skeptical. 38:40.300 --> 38:42.560 It just seemed outlandish to me. 38:43.560 --> 38:45.340 Because it's so brazen. 38:45.400 --> 38:46.440 It would be so brazen 38:46.440 --> 38:48.020 of a foreign intelligence service 38:48.020 --> 38:50.400 to think that it can get away with it, 38:50.600 --> 38:52.860 you know, on American soil. 38:53.680 --> 38:54.980 The difference is when you talk 38:54.980 --> 38:56.360 to the person who's involved, 38:56.620 --> 38:58.280 and that sort of, you know, 38:58.840 --> 39:02.320 convinces you that they are really suffering. 39:03.920 --> 39:08.140 Honestly, I don't know what is going on, right? 39:08.380 --> 39:10.400 But I have no doubt in my mind 39:10.400 --> 39:13.000 that John experienced 39:13.000 --> 39:14.480 exactly what he's describing, 39:14.920 --> 39:17.460 that he is a completely reliable narrator 39:17.460 --> 39:18.820 of what happened to him. 39:19.500 --> 39:21.100 I do not know what happened to him. 39:26.920 --> 39:28.100 For what it's worth, 39:28.400 --> 39:30.660 John was himself skeptical at first 39:30.660 --> 39:31.920 that what happened to him 39:31.920 --> 39:33.160 could be Havana Syndrome. 39:33.700 --> 39:35.760 But after discussing it with his colleagues, 39:36.000 --> 39:38.160 it occurred to him that this could be it. 39:38.160 --> 39:41.060 And that's been a running theme 39:41.060 --> 39:43.060 throughout our years reporting this story. 39:43.700 --> 39:45.500 There is still no definitive evidence 39:45.500 --> 39:48.080 that any of these incidents actually happened, 39:48.440 --> 39:49.680 except for the fact that people 39:49.680 --> 39:51.080 are reporting these symptoms, 39:51.720 --> 39:53.620 symptoms that these patients' doctors 39:53.620 --> 39:55.560 have argued are very real. 39:56.660 --> 39:59.740 And so, if the cause is some kind of weapon, 40:00.280 --> 40:02.700 if this is the result of a series of attacks, 40:03.520 --> 40:05.860 someone has perpetrated the perfect crime. 40:05.860 --> 40:07.880 And so now, 40:08.020 --> 40:09.220 we're trying to figure out 40:09.220 --> 40:10.920 what is Havana Syndrome? 40:14.420 --> 40:15.520 Is it even real? 40:16.160 --> 40:17.200 And if it is, 40:17.580 --> 40:18.420 who's doing it? 40:18.800 --> 40:20.420 And why is it taking so long 40:20.420 --> 40:21.820 for the U.S. to solve this? 40:22.700 --> 40:23.720 Is there something 40:23.720 --> 40:25.340 that the United States, 40:25.620 --> 40:27.100 one of the most powerful countries 40:27.100 --> 40:28.180 in the history of the world, 40:28.400 --> 40:30.040 has been missing this whole time? 40:30.040 --> 40:53.040 They've killed people's dogs. 40:53.180 --> 40:54.680 They've urinated in mouthwash. 40:54.820 --> 40:56.720 They put feces under your door handles 40:56.720 --> 40:58.100 so you'd come and grab them. 40:58.280 --> 41:00.000 They'd do some sort of damage to your car. 41:00.280 --> 41:02.040 This was just part of this long game 41:02.040 --> 41:03.920 of them always letting you know 41:03.920 --> 41:04.520 that they're there, 41:04.900 --> 41:06.320 letting you know that they can get to you. 41:06.740 --> 41:07.440 But also, 41:07.680 --> 41:09.640 they want to find what gets under your skin, 41:09.740 --> 41:10.600 and they exploit it. 41:12.800 --> 41:13.720 That's next time 41:13.720 --> 41:15.020 on Havana Syndrome. 41:15.020 --> 41:26.860 Havana Syndrome is hosted and reported 41:26.860 --> 41:27.900 by Adam Entous 41:27.900 --> 41:28.500 and me, 41:28.760 --> 41:29.500 John Lee Anderson. 41:30.000 --> 41:31.100 It's produced and reported 41:31.100 --> 41:32.100 by Julia Nutter, 41:32.440 --> 41:33.880 Jesse Alejandra Cottrell, 41:34.120 --> 41:35.580 and Ramon Campos-Iriarte, 41:36.020 --> 41:38.020 and edited and executive produced 41:38.020 --> 41:38.980 by Annie Aviles 41:38.980 --> 41:40.320 and Kate Osborne, 41:40.680 --> 41:41.800 with original composition 41:41.800 --> 41:42.820 and sound design 41:42.820 --> 41:43.820 by Steve Bone. 41:45.020 --> 41:46.040 Havana Syndrome Wong 41:46.040 --> 41:46.700 and Kate Osborne Moore 41:46.700 --> 41:47.260 and Kate Osborne. 41:49.440 --> 42:03.200 We've got 42:03.580 --> 42:05.480 the stuff he tangable 42:06.940 --> 42:07.260 that's on. 42:09.320 --> 42:11.120 I'm very excited 42:11.120 --> 42:13.620 and the humbled