WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:14.080 In late 2017, it seemed that the problem had been contained. 00:14.640 --> 00:17.240 All non-essential staff had been pulled out of Cuba. 00:17.900 --> 00:20.660 The CIA station in Havana was indefinitely shut. 00:21.440 --> 00:24.640 The U.S. government had sent a harsh message to the Cubans, 00:24.940 --> 00:27.400 expelling several of their diplomats from the United States. 00:28.180 --> 00:31.080 Meanwhile, those Americans affected are getting treatment. 00:32.080 --> 00:36.320 But then, in a matter of months, fresh cables arrive in Washington, 00:37.160 --> 00:42.380 reporting eerily similar instances facing CIA officers and diplomats abroad. 00:43.140 --> 00:47.400 The Havana syndrome, it seemed, was no longer limited to Havana. 00:48.200 --> 00:51.520 This thing, whatever it is, is spreading. 00:52.260 --> 00:54.960 I'd have American friends of mine in New Hampshire, you know, say like, 00:54.960 --> 00:58.340 oh, Mark, you're in that Guangzhou place or something like that. 00:58.380 --> 01:00.380 How is it over there? Are there like donkey carts? 01:00.900 --> 01:02.980 I was like, you need to come over and see this. 01:03.060 --> 01:06.220 These are more developed cities than, you know, American cities. 01:06.400 --> 01:09.180 From an engineering perspective and stuff, 01:09.240 --> 01:12.300 to see how they pretty much built that new city of Guangzhou, 01:12.400 --> 01:13.420 I mean, it was super impressive. 01:15.480 --> 01:18.980 Mark Lenzi's been stationed in southern China for just over a year, 01:19.380 --> 01:21.580 working at the U.S. consulate in Guangzhou, 01:21.580 --> 01:24.480 a huge metropolis just north of Hong Kong. 01:25.260 --> 01:27.620 He's an engineer with diplomatic security. 01:28.140 --> 01:32.120 Their job is to safeguard diplomats and their communications in foreign countries. 01:32.700 --> 01:36.240 He's the guy making sure none of the diplomats' homes or offices are bugged 01:36.240 --> 01:37.860 and that their computers aren't hacked. 01:38.720 --> 01:39.980 Mark's enjoying his time. 01:40.540 --> 01:43.340 The only downside to living here is the air quality. 01:43.920 --> 01:45.220 You won't believe the stuff that... 01:45.220 --> 01:50.480 Sometimes the tint of the smog would be like this weird green tint. 01:50.480 --> 01:54.700 But after a while, Mark starts to notice something else. 01:55.320 --> 01:59.940 It was November of 2017 when we noticed a distinct increase in headaches 01:59.940 --> 02:03.440 and also a corresponding decrease in our sleep. 02:04.380 --> 02:05.740 And also the kids' bloody noses. 02:06.220 --> 02:09.660 But at first, Mark and his wife think that what their children are experiencing 02:09.660 --> 02:12.280 is a bad reaction to the city's smog. 02:12.280 --> 02:16.360 But as 2017 turned into 2018, 02:17.300 --> 02:23.400 my most distressing symptom for me that I couldn't ascribe to the smog 02:23.400 --> 02:24.860 was short-term memory loss. 02:25.240 --> 02:27.340 Then he starts hearing rumors at work. 02:27.840 --> 02:30.160 His co-workers are saying that one of their diplomats 02:30.160 --> 02:31.900 has just been medevaced out of the country. 02:32.460 --> 02:35.640 And it's around the same time that Mark notices that his next-door neighbor, 02:35.980 --> 02:38.520 who also worked at the consulate, is missing. 02:38.520 --> 02:41.100 I haven't seen her for a long time. 02:42.000 --> 02:44.640 From his perspective, she's gone without a trace. 02:45.320 --> 02:49.440 My leadership is acting really weird with me about things. 02:50.340 --> 02:52.460 But I'm starting to kind of connect the dots here. 02:52.520 --> 02:54.340 Like, wait a second, what's going on here? 02:54.340 --> 03:09.480 I'm John Leanderson. 03:09.860 --> 03:10.800 And I'm Adam Entis. 03:11.520 --> 03:14.260 From Vice World News, this is Havana Syndrome. 03:24.340 --> 03:46.580 Episode 5 03:46.580 --> 03:49.400 Anyone, Anywhere, At Any Time 03:49.400 --> 03:54.380 By the end of 2017, 03:54.900 --> 03:56.640 if you were stationed at a U.S. embassy 03:56.640 --> 03:58.620 in any country other than Cuba, 03:58.940 --> 04:02.060 you may not have even realized that there was any reason for concern. 04:03.440 --> 04:05.060 But just a few months later, 04:05.300 --> 04:06.980 people started to get sick in China. 04:07.980 --> 04:10.120 I didn't know about Guangzhou until months later. 04:10.560 --> 04:13.440 I heard about it from congressional sources that were briefed on it. 04:14.100 --> 04:16.460 I started reaching out to the victims via a lawyer 04:16.460 --> 04:17.900 that represents many of them. 04:17.900 --> 04:21.180 Mark Lenzi was one of the first ones who responded to me, 04:21.500 --> 04:22.940 and he had a real story to tell. 04:24.780 --> 04:26.740 Mark found himself on the front lines 04:26.740 --> 04:30.140 of the first major outbreak of possible cases outside of Havana. 04:30.680 --> 04:32.680 It was not a situation he foresaw. 04:33.260 --> 04:34.380 Not at all, actually. 04:34.880 --> 04:39.360 Or at least what the little information I heard about Cuba 04:39.360 --> 04:40.520 or something like that, no way. 04:40.640 --> 04:42.480 It would not, especially in China, no. 04:42.680 --> 04:44.420 I mean, absolutely not. 04:44.420 --> 04:49.560 I've worked in more than 70 countries around the world 04:49.560 --> 04:52.160 with the State Department, you know, Afghanistan. 04:52.460 --> 04:54.520 I've been to Iraq, Chad, places like this. 04:54.580 --> 04:56.680 So really kind of some tough countries. 04:56.920 --> 05:00.760 I've been, let's say, pushed around before in my work. 05:00.840 --> 05:02.020 I've done some pushing back. 05:02.580 --> 05:03.940 That's kind of the nature of the work. 05:03.940 --> 05:07.200 Or you said you got pushed around. 05:07.280 --> 05:08.080 Can you talk about any of that? 05:08.320 --> 05:09.820 Not in detail too much. 05:12.220 --> 05:14.280 What I do as a security engineering officer, 05:14.280 --> 05:17.760 it's not really a traditional kind of diplomat job. 05:17.840 --> 05:21.060 We work a lot with very, let's say, specialized equipment. 05:21.060 --> 05:25.800 I was always interested in kind of technology. 05:26.620 --> 05:30.440 You know, James Bond, you know, tools and stuff like this growing up. 05:30.760 --> 05:33.140 Mark grew up watching movies where secret agents 05:33.140 --> 05:35.760 went around zapping enemy spies with ray guns. 05:36.420 --> 05:38.120 This led to him studying engineering 05:38.120 --> 05:40.300 and then getting a job with the State Department. 05:40.700 --> 05:42.920 This was kind of a good way to combine the traveling 05:42.920 --> 05:45.920 and cutting-edge technological toys, let's say, 05:46.060 --> 05:47.400 that the U.S. government uses. 05:47.620 --> 05:48.540 So that's why I wanted to... 05:48.540 --> 05:50.280 Basically, Mark prevents outsiders 05:50.280 --> 05:52.580 from infiltrating embassies and consulates. 05:52.860 --> 05:55.920 So it might be setting up alarm systems 05:55.920 --> 05:58.180 within, let's say, U.S. Embassy The Hague, 05:58.420 --> 06:01.760 or it might be looking for foreign countries 06:01.760 --> 06:03.760 trying to commit technical espionage 06:03.760 --> 06:06.060 against U.S. Embassy The Hague. 06:06.980 --> 06:08.180 You ever find a bug? 06:08.900 --> 06:10.220 No, I'm not going to talk about that. 06:14.080 --> 06:16.580 Many of the victims that I've talked to over the years 06:16.580 --> 06:17.640 of reporting on this 06:17.640 --> 06:20.860 have been circumspect and reluctant to point fingers. 06:21.620 --> 06:23.720 I've often had to slowly draw them out, 06:24.120 --> 06:25.560 sometimes over years, 06:25.880 --> 06:27.100 before they would talk to me. 06:27.820 --> 06:29.000 But Mark was different. 06:32.700 --> 06:34.420 It starts in his home. 06:35.300 --> 06:36.820 His apartment is in Tower 7, 06:37.460 --> 06:39.160 a giant building in Guangzhou 06:39.160 --> 06:41.080 that houses a lot of consular staff. 06:41.880 --> 06:45.300 Mark and his wife start hearing these strange sounds. 06:45.300 --> 06:47.520 These sounds, again, 06:47.620 --> 06:50.160 were like nothing that we had ever heard before, 06:50.380 --> 06:54.240 kind of like a ball bearing bouncing on glass, 06:54.480 --> 06:55.840 kind of this high-pitched sound. 06:56.260 --> 06:57.740 Of all the people we've talked to, 06:58.300 --> 06:59.640 Mark's description of the sound 06:59.640 --> 07:01.720 is by far the most specific. 07:02.080 --> 07:03.320 You had like that ball bearing 07:03.320 --> 07:07.120 in a six-foot diameter steel metal funnel, 07:07.120 --> 07:09.840 and the sound that would make us 07:09.840 --> 07:11.280 that gets progressively faster 07:11.280 --> 07:12.260 down towards the bottom. 07:12.600 --> 07:15.120 It's Mark's wife who hears the sounds first. 07:15.840 --> 07:17.840 She's in bed one night when... 07:17.840 --> 07:19.680 My wife's startled awake with the headache, 07:20.000 --> 07:21.020 hears that sound, 07:21.340 --> 07:22.720 and says like, 07:22.820 --> 07:24.480 what the hell could be causing that? 07:24.560 --> 07:26.600 Well, maybe it's our neighbor upstairs. 07:26.660 --> 07:27.880 So she texts our neighbor. 07:28.500 --> 07:30.300 Like, are you dropping some weird, 07:30.300 --> 07:31.240 like, ball bearings, 07:31.400 --> 07:32.420 like, on the floor? 07:32.500 --> 07:33.780 I don't know how you're doing that sound, 07:33.780 --> 07:34.280 but like... 07:34.280 --> 07:36.080 Mark's neighbor texts his wife back 07:36.080 --> 07:37.020 a little while later, 07:37.500 --> 07:38.240 and she's like, 07:39.000 --> 07:40.860 there's no one in that room above you. 07:41.200 --> 07:43.160 No one's been in that room for, 07:43.260 --> 07:44.800 you know, eight hours. 07:46.000 --> 07:47.400 After that, my neighbor 07:47.400 --> 07:49.060 kind of treated my wife 07:49.060 --> 07:49.880 like a little bit like, 07:49.960 --> 07:51.300 you're kind of hearing these strange sounds, 07:51.440 --> 07:53.500 texting me at 11 o'clock at night 07:53.500 --> 07:54.580 after your kid's in bed, 07:54.600 --> 07:55.160 and you're in bed, 07:55.220 --> 07:56.200 and about these strange sounds. 07:56.200 --> 07:56.780 I was like, what the hell? 08:00.460 --> 08:02.540 But then he notices other things. 08:02.540 --> 08:05.180 His kids start waking up every morning 08:05.180 --> 08:06.340 with bloody noses. 08:07.000 --> 08:07.920 Remember that Tony, 08:08.220 --> 08:09.480 the first CIA officer 08:09.480 --> 08:11.720 to report getting Havana syndrome in Cuba, 08:12.260 --> 08:14.100 told us that he had a bloody nose 08:14.100 --> 08:16.400 so intense that it soaked through his pillow. 08:17.100 --> 08:17.820 Mark and his wife 08:17.820 --> 08:19.140 keep getting awful headaches. 08:19.580 --> 08:20.820 They start popping aspirin 08:20.820 --> 08:21.960 like they were Tic Tacs. 08:22.280 --> 08:23.800 We were definitely taking 08:23.800 --> 08:25.340 a lot more aspirin. 08:25.340 --> 08:26.640 In fact, she bought, like, 08:26.700 --> 08:27.460 a huge jar, 08:27.560 --> 08:29.580 if you know, 500 tablets of aspirin, 08:29.640 --> 08:30.280 and I split that 08:30.280 --> 08:31.400 because I was taking it at work, 08:31.400 --> 08:32.280 I was taking it at home 08:32.280 --> 08:32.940 and stuff like that. 08:32.960 --> 08:33.620 And so now, 08:33.920 --> 08:35.280 Mark's coming in late to work, 08:35.800 --> 08:36.660 calling in sick. 08:37.040 --> 08:39.000 His job performance starts to suffer. 08:39.780 --> 08:41.040 An important part of the job 08:41.040 --> 08:42.640 is memorizing security codes 08:42.640 --> 08:44.000 to let him or his bosses 08:44.000 --> 08:45.240 into restricted areas 08:45.240 --> 08:46.220 throughout the consulate, 08:46.340 --> 08:48.040 like entire floors of the building 08:48.040 --> 08:49.100 that are off-limits. 08:49.680 --> 08:51.380 And Mark usually has dozens 08:51.380 --> 08:52.180 of these memorized. 08:52.180 --> 08:53.440 But now, 08:53.740 --> 08:54.860 when he tries to get into 08:54.860 --> 08:55.860 these restricted areas 08:55.860 --> 08:57.220 and has to type the right code 08:57.220 --> 08:58.080 into the keypad, 08:58.540 --> 08:59.600 his mind goes blank. 08:59.600 --> 09:01.380 I thought that maybe 09:01.380 --> 09:02.880 I had, like, 09:02.920 --> 09:04.280 early onset of Alzheimer's. 09:04.440 --> 09:05.060 That's kind of what I thought. 09:05.060 --> 09:05.780 Because he's forgetting 09:05.780 --> 09:06.900 even simpler things. 09:07.580 --> 09:08.040 One day, 09:08.340 --> 09:09.540 when he's installing cable 09:09.540 --> 09:10.540 with another technician, 09:10.900 --> 09:12.500 he tries to ask for a tool 09:12.500 --> 09:13.580 that he's used for years, 09:13.700 --> 09:15.020 but suddenly he can't 09:15.020 --> 09:15.780 remember the name. 09:16.160 --> 09:17.440 And the word I was looking for 09:17.440 --> 09:18.520 was water pump pliers. 09:19.480 --> 09:20.320 It was like one of these 09:20.320 --> 09:21.320 awkward moments, 09:21.400 --> 09:21.780 and he's like, 09:21.800 --> 09:22.440 you okay, man? 09:22.560 --> 09:24.120 But he bailed me out, luckily, 09:24.340 --> 09:24.900 and he said, 09:24.960 --> 09:26.160 oh, well, you're over 40 now. 09:26.260 --> 09:26.940 I go, yeah, yeah, yeah, 09:26.940 --> 09:27.980 welcome to the club, man. 09:27.980 --> 09:31.820 It's in the middle of Mark 09:31.820 --> 09:33.160 experiencing all of these 09:33.160 --> 09:34.040 strange symptoms 09:34.040 --> 09:35.940 that he hears that his neighbor, 09:36.240 --> 09:37.940 who also works at the consulate, 09:38.140 --> 09:38.580 is gone. 09:39.220 --> 09:40.160 Then he finds out 09:40.160 --> 09:41.620 that she was actually medevaced 09:41.620 --> 09:43.440 for a serious medical emergency. 09:45.180 --> 09:46.060 Mark and his neighbor 09:46.060 --> 09:46.900 weren't close, 09:47.460 --> 09:48.560 but he feels that he must 09:48.560 --> 09:49.180 talk to her. 09:49.660 --> 09:50.680 Maybe she can help him 09:50.680 --> 09:51.520 make sense of what 09:51.520 --> 09:52.400 he's going through. 09:53.160 --> 09:54.560 After some back and forth, 09:54.880 --> 09:56.020 he gets her on the phone. 09:56.020 --> 09:57.460 At the time, 09:57.760 --> 09:58.540 she's actually at 09:58.540 --> 09:59.800 the University of Pennsylvania 09:59.800 --> 10:01.020 with some of the victims 10:01.020 --> 10:01.660 from Cuba. 10:02.920 --> 10:03.620 She said, 10:03.680 --> 10:04.520 why are you calling me? 10:04.960 --> 10:05.360 And I said, 10:05.420 --> 10:06.920 well, I wanted to let you know 10:06.920 --> 10:07.940 that my wife and I 10:07.940 --> 10:10.020 are over the last 10:10.020 --> 10:10.700 couple months. 10:10.900 --> 10:11.920 He tells her about 10:11.920 --> 10:12.620 their symptoms. 10:13.040 --> 10:13.480 She's like, 10:13.560 --> 10:14.240 okay, that's it. 10:14.300 --> 10:15.020 I'm going to stop you 10:15.020 --> 10:15.520 right there. 10:15.980 --> 10:16.800 Those same symptoms 10:16.800 --> 10:17.880 that you just described to me, 10:18.100 --> 10:19.480 that's exactly what I had. 10:19.760 --> 10:20.940 When Mark tells her 10:20.940 --> 10:21.920 that he and his family 10:21.920 --> 10:22.600 are still living 10:22.600 --> 10:23.340 in their apartment, 10:23.680 --> 10:24.900 she kind of freaks out. 10:24.900 --> 10:25.600 She goes, 10:25.680 --> 10:25.880 Mark, 10:25.980 --> 10:27.120 you need to get them 10:27.120 --> 10:28.340 out right now. 10:28.640 --> 10:29.380 I'm surprised you're 10:29.380 --> 10:30.280 even still in that apartment. 10:30.380 --> 10:30.600 I said, 10:30.620 --> 10:30.980 well, they're not 10:30.980 --> 10:31.940 telling us anything. 10:32.740 --> 10:33.840 And then she says to him, 10:33.920 --> 10:34.520 do you know why 10:34.520 --> 10:35.160 I'm back here? 10:35.680 --> 10:36.140 And I was like, 10:36.160 --> 10:37.100 no, they're not telling us. 10:37.100 --> 10:37.400 He's like, 10:37.400 --> 10:38.080 I'm back here. 10:38.160 --> 10:38.720 I was diagnosed 10:38.720 --> 10:39.780 with brain injury, 10:39.860 --> 10:40.400 the same thing 10:40.400 --> 10:41.420 that was going on in Cuba. 10:54.900 --> 10:57.340 While all of this 10:57.340 --> 10:58.240 is happening to Mark 10:58.240 --> 10:58.840 in China, 10:59.380 --> 11:00.220 the U.S. government 11:00.220 --> 11:01.180 is still struggling 11:01.180 --> 11:01.880 to figure out 11:01.880 --> 11:02.820 what's going on. 11:03.460 --> 11:04.320 The FBI's 11:04.320 --> 11:05.820 Behavioral Analysis Unit 11:05.820 --> 11:07.160 had started to examine 11:07.160 --> 11:08.160 the Havana cases. 11:08.900 --> 11:09.960 I got a tip 11:09.960 --> 11:11.020 that this FBI unit 11:11.020 --> 11:11.920 was working on it. 11:12.420 --> 11:13.000 Soon thereafter, 11:13.280 --> 11:14.320 I broke the news 11:14.320 --> 11:15.040 that they had come 11:15.040 --> 11:15.780 to the conclusion 11:15.780 --> 11:17.580 that this was psychogenic, 11:18.400 --> 11:19.900 meaning that the FBI unit 11:19.900 --> 11:21.940 believed that nothing real 11:21.940 --> 11:23.120 had happened to them. 11:23.120 --> 11:29.400 After my article came out, 11:29.640 --> 11:30.480 a number of people 11:30.480 --> 11:31.380 got in touch with me. 11:31.860 --> 11:32.300 Victims, 11:32.700 --> 11:33.760 State Department officials, 11:33.960 --> 11:35.080 the doctors at UPenn. 11:35.600 --> 11:36.540 They were all pissed. 11:37.160 --> 11:38.340 How could the FBI unit 11:38.340 --> 11:39.340 reach this conclusion 11:39.340 --> 11:40.360 without talking 11:40.360 --> 11:41.240 to any of the victims? 11:42.180 --> 11:42.980 Some of these people 11:42.980 --> 11:43.840 were so distraught 11:43.840 --> 11:44.560 that I was worried 11:44.560 --> 11:44.980 that they were 11:44.980 --> 11:46.180 potentially suicidal. 11:47.420 --> 11:49.300 Regardless of the FBI assessment, 11:50.080 --> 11:50.720 Havana Syndrome 11:50.720 --> 11:51.840 just kept spreading. 11:51.840 --> 11:53.680 Around the same time 11:53.680 --> 11:55.000 that Mark first gets sick, 11:55.280 --> 11:56.700 a senior CIA officer 11:56.700 --> 11:58.000 comes down with the symptoms 11:58.000 --> 11:58.800 in Moscow. 11:59.360 --> 12:00.860 The events in Moscow 12:00.860 --> 12:01.640 and Guangzhou 12:01.640 --> 12:02.900 weren't made public 12:02.900 --> 12:03.460 right away, 12:03.980 --> 12:04.820 and my reporting 12:04.820 --> 12:05.820 leads me to think 12:05.820 --> 12:06.680 that those were 12:06.680 --> 12:07.580 the first incidents 12:07.580 --> 12:09.000 reported outside of Cuba. 12:09.680 --> 12:10.300 But of course, 12:10.420 --> 12:11.220 there could be others 12:11.220 --> 12:12.480 that we don't know about yet. 12:13.200 --> 12:14.560 A pattern was yet 12:14.560 --> 12:15.300 to be detected, 12:15.680 --> 12:16.820 and inside the government, 12:17.080 --> 12:17.760 the new cases 12:17.760 --> 12:18.340 weren't really 12:18.340 --> 12:19.280 getting much attention. 12:19.280 --> 12:20.480 There was a lot 12:20.480 --> 12:21.060 of confusion 12:21.060 --> 12:22.300 about what Havana Syndrome 12:22.300 --> 12:23.040 even was, 12:23.500 --> 12:24.680 or if it was even real. 12:25.200 --> 12:26.160 It looked like maybe 12:26.160 --> 12:27.500 this would never get solved. 12:28.020 --> 12:28.760 It was going to be 12:28.760 --> 12:30.520 Bigfoot, UFOs, 12:30.740 --> 12:31.520 the Havana Syndrome. 12:32.300 --> 12:33.720 It wasn't a priority. 12:34.840 --> 12:35.300 But there were 12:35.300 --> 12:36.440 a few people in government, 12:36.720 --> 12:37.280 many of whom 12:37.280 --> 12:38.200 were cold warriors, 12:38.720 --> 12:39.380 who were dying 12:39.380 --> 12:40.480 to get to the bottom of it, 12:40.560 --> 12:41.860 and were frustrated 12:41.860 --> 12:42.680 that nobody could 12:42.680 --> 12:43.620 give them any answers. 12:43.620 --> 12:44.320 And do you guys 12:44.320 --> 12:45.160 need anything, 12:45.320 --> 12:46.540 cords, blah, blah, blah? 12:46.840 --> 12:47.480 No, I just think 12:47.480 --> 12:47.920 the only thing 12:47.920 --> 12:48.460 that we're going to ask 12:48.460 --> 12:49.060 everyone in the room 12:49.060 --> 12:49.820 to do is to, like, 12:50.200 --> 12:50.800 probably turn off 12:50.800 --> 12:51.320 their cell phones. 12:52.260 --> 12:53.200 But that's not going to happen? 12:53.620 --> 12:54.140 No, it will. 12:54.280 --> 12:54.560 It will. 12:54.760 --> 12:55.600 I believe that the 12:55.600 --> 12:57.200 ambassadors is on silent. 12:57.480 --> 12:58.340 It depends on the ring, 12:58.420 --> 12:58.540 though. 12:58.560 --> 12:59.220 Is it a cool ring? 12:59.360 --> 13:00.800 No, it is not a cool ring. 13:00.900 --> 13:02.340 I can guarantee you that. 13:03.200 --> 13:04.460 Ambassador, John Lee Anderson. 13:04.460 --> 13:05.040 Hi, how are you? 13:05.040 --> 13:05.520 Nice to meet you. 13:06.600 --> 13:07.320 They just want you 13:07.320 --> 13:08.200 to say your name, 13:08.540 --> 13:09.580 and, you know, 13:09.720 --> 13:10.740 I was national security advisor 13:10.740 --> 13:11.120 or something like that. 13:11.960 --> 13:13.020 I'm John Bolton. 13:13.020 --> 13:14.880 I was a national security advisor 13:14.880 --> 13:16.160 during the Trump administration. 13:17.180 --> 13:18.540 The best time of your life? 13:20.420 --> 13:21.300 Except when he was 13:21.300 --> 13:21.960 wishing me dead 13:21.960 --> 13:23.020 from COVID-19. 13:24.160 --> 13:25.980 Bolton was President Trump's 13:25.980 --> 13:27.820 third national security advisor 13:27.820 --> 13:28.920 in just over a year. 13:29.500 --> 13:30.380 But he's served 13:30.380 --> 13:31.460 in every Republican 13:31.460 --> 13:32.760 presidential administration 13:32.760 --> 13:33.940 going back to Reagan. 13:33.940 --> 13:35.360 Is John Bolton 13:35.360 --> 13:36.920 the most dangerous man 13:36.920 --> 13:37.460 in the world? 13:37.680 --> 13:38.440 He's got leaders 13:38.440 --> 13:39.200 around the globe 13:39.200 --> 13:40.480 terrified he could trigger 13:40.480 --> 13:41.780 a full-scale battle. 13:41.960 --> 13:42.800 He was the ambassador 13:42.800 --> 13:43.540 to the U.N. 13:43.540 --> 13:44.900 under George W. Bush. 13:45.000 --> 13:45.880 He has a reputation 13:45.880 --> 13:47.520 of a bit of a bomb thrower. 13:47.660 --> 13:48.360 An institution 13:48.360 --> 13:49.340 he didn't particularly 13:49.340 --> 13:50.180 believe in. 13:51.080 --> 13:53.460 I started in April of 2018, 13:53.740 --> 13:55.300 and just a few weeks, 13:55.380 --> 13:56.320 I think, before that, 13:56.440 --> 13:57.660 there had been reports 13:57.660 --> 13:59.480 of similar attacks in China. 13:59.720 --> 14:00.980 In his second year in office, 14:01.280 --> 14:02.320 Trump chooses Bolton 14:02.320 --> 14:03.960 to be his national security advisor. 14:04.540 --> 14:05.280 Soon thereafter, 14:05.460 --> 14:06.100 he's briefed 14:06.100 --> 14:07.140 on the latest developments 14:07.140 --> 14:09.040 in the Havana Syndrome mystery. 14:09.900 --> 14:11.240 Bolton forms a strong opinion 14:11.240 --> 14:12.200 about the situation 14:12.200 --> 14:12.920 pretty quickly. 14:12.920 --> 14:14.460 Certainly from all 14:14.460 --> 14:15.520 outward appearances, 14:15.760 --> 14:16.440 it was an attack 14:16.440 --> 14:17.480 on American personnel, 14:17.680 --> 14:18.360 first in Cuba, 14:18.440 --> 14:19.120 then in China. 14:20.280 --> 14:21.680 And, you know, 14:21.720 --> 14:23.280 we can't tolerate that. 14:23.620 --> 14:24.840 He starts poking around, 14:25.320 --> 14:26.380 asks his staff 14:26.380 --> 14:27.540 to start pulling together 14:27.540 --> 14:28.920 any inside information. 14:29.160 --> 14:30.560 But to his surprise, 14:30.700 --> 14:31.560 there isn't much. 14:32.120 --> 14:33.600 In terms of your sense 14:33.600 --> 14:34.860 of the prioritization 14:34.860 --> 14:36.180 given to this 14:36.180 --> 14:37.840 by the intelligence community, 14:38.460 --> 14:39.700 what was your sense 14:39.700 --> 14:41.320 of the way they viewed this? 14:41.700 --> 14:42.540 I didn't sense 14:42.540 --> 14:43.640 that they thought 14:43.640 --> 14:44.740 it was much of a priority. 14:45.260 --> 14:45.960 He starts pushing 14:45.960 --> 14:46.880 for more to be done. 14:47.160 --> 14:49.080 You can't say to Gina Haspel, 14:49.200 --> 14:49.980 the CIA director, 14:50.220 --> 14:51.040 I need you to, like, 14:51.120 --> 14:52.420 double the resources on this. 14:52.480 --> 14:54.100 You can say a lot of things. 14:54.180 --> 14:55.540 Whether the bureaucracy responds 14:55.540 --> 14:56.420 is a different story. 14:56.700 --> 14:57.940 I don't command anybody 14:57.940 --> 14:59.400 outside the relatively 14:59.400 --> 15:00.840 small NSC staff. 15:01.560 --> 15:05.640 Bolton starts raising 15:05.640 --> 15:06.400 his concerns 15:06.400 --> 15:07.360 at meetings he's having 15:07.360 --> 15:08.280 with other principals 15:08.280 --> 15:08.840 in government. 15:09.380 --> 15:10.460 And what Bolton learns 15:10.460 --> 15:11.160 is that even though 15:11.160 --> 15:12.380 the FBI, the CIA, 15:12.480 --> 15:13.180 and the State Department 15:13.180 --> 15:14.340 are all investigating 15:14.340 --> 15:15.120 Havana Syndrome, 15:15.620 --> 15:16.400 no one is making 15:16.400 --> 15:17.200 much progress. 15:17.840 --> 15:19.020 Which is understandably 15:19.020 --> 15:20.300 pretty frustrating for him 15:20.300 --> 15:21.420 and his top advisor 15:21.420 --> 15:22.900 at the National Security Council. 15:23.040 --> 15:23.720 So just basically 15:23.720 --> 15:25.160 say your name and then... 15:25.160 --> 15:25.300 Okay. 15:26.620 --> 15:27.860 I'm Charles Kupperman. 15:28.180 --> 15:29.020 I was a deputy 15:29.020 --> 15:30.240 National Security Advisor 15:30.240 --> 15:31.300 from January 2008. 15:31.560 --> 15:32.780 2019 until the end 15:32.780 --> 15:34.340 of September of 2019. 15:35.980 --> 15:37.000 Kupperman and Bolton 15:37.000 --> 15:37.740 go way back. 15:38.200 --> 15:39.360 They're both cold warriors, 15:39.800 --> 15:40.980 anti-communist types. 15:41.880 --> 15:42.560 Since the beginning 15:42.560 --> 15:43.660 of his political career 15:43.660 --> 15:44.940 in the late 1970s, 15:45.440 --> 15:46.420 Kupperman has been focused 15:46.420 --> 15:47.420 on national security, 15:48.060 --> 15:48.980 particularly the threat 15:48.980 --> 15:49.840 posed by Russia. 15:51.040 --> 15:52.400 And so when he comes back 15:52.400 --> 15:53.120 to the White House 15:53.120 --> 15:54.220 in 2018 15:54.220 --> 15:56.020 to join the Trump administration, 15:56.620 --> 15:58.220 his focus is on ensuring 15:58.220 --> 15:59.320 that we are better equipped 15:59.320 --> 16:00.980 militarily than our adversaries. 16:01.600 --> 16:03.380 There was a great deal 16:03.380 --> 16:04.460 of interest on the part 16:04.460 --> 16:05.360 of Ambassador Bolton 16:05.360 --> 16:06.660 that we need to stay ahead 16:06.660 --> 16:07.880 of the technology curve 16:07.880 --> 16:08.640 and the threat curve 16:08.640 --> 16:09.400 in technology. 16:10.140 --> 16:11.140 So we put together 16:11.140 --> 16:12.120 a team that would look 16:12.120 --> 16:13.340 far out as to 16:13.340 --> 16:14.660 what other technologies 16:14.660 --> 16:16.180 might we pay attention to 16:16.180 --> 16:17.300 that create threats 16:17.300 --> 16:18.220 against the United States 16:18.220 --> 16:18.920 and our allies. 16:19.700 --> 16:20.940 One of the first tasks 16:20.940 --> 16:22.120 his team takes on 16:22.120 --> 16:23.420 is trying to figure out 16:23.420 --> 16:23.980 what's causing 16:23.980 --> 16:24.700 Havana Syndrome. 16:25.540 --> 16:26.700 With limited information, 16:26.700 --> 16:28.080 they use a process 16:28.080 --> 16:28.660 of elimination 16:28.660 --> 16:29.660 to rule out 16:29.660 --> 16:30.620 potential causes. 16:31.140 --> 16:32.160 They land on a theory 16:32.160 --> 16:33.540 that Havana Syndrome 16:33.540 --> 16:34.740 is caused by a weapon. 16:35.340 --> 16:36.500 As for what kind of weapon, 16:37.100 --> 16:37.920 they think it's one 16:37.920 --> 16:39.240 that uses pulsed 16:39.240 --> 16:40.820 microwave radiation. 16:41.200 --> 16:42.160 And he came up 16:42.160 --> 16:43.120 with a very interesting 16:43.120 --> 16:44.120 set of conclusions. 16:44.600 --> 16:45.580 Primarily a pulsed 16:45.580 --> 16:46.580 microwave device 16:46.580 --> 16:47.460 could cause the kind 16:47.460 --> 16:48.220 of damage that 16:48.220 --> 16:50.300 individuals were experiencing. 16:50.920 --> 16:51.740 We'll get deeper 16:51.740 --> 16:52.500 into how this kind 16:52.500 --> 16:52.920 of weapon, 16:53.200 --> 16:54.040 if it exists, 16:54.040 --> 16:55.080 might work 16:55.080 --> 16:56.100 in a later episode. 16:56.640 --> 16:57.300 But for now, 16:57.420 --> 16:58.220 all you need to know 16:58.220 --> 16:58.980 is that it's a weapon 16:58.980 --> 16:59.680 that supposedly 16:59.680 --> 17:01.160 uses microwave energy, 17:01.660 --> 17:02.340 similar to how 17:02.340 --> 17:03.760 your home microwave works. 17:04.480 --> 17:05.360 But the thing is, 17:05.580 --> 17:06.340 this kind of weapon 17:06.340 --> 17:07.040 is more theory 17:07.040 --> 17:07.780 than reality. 17:08.380 --> 17:09.760 Pulsed microwave weapons 17:09.760 --> 17:10.740 have never been used 17:10.740 --> 17:11.320 on a battlefield 17:11.320 --> 17:12.580 that we know of. 17:13.700 --> 17:14.100 Still, 17:14.420 --> 17:15.200 when Kupperman 17:15.200 --> 17:16.560 hears his team's theory, 17:17.000 --> 17:17.980 he has an immediate 17:17.980 --> 17:19.120 emotional reaction. 17:19.460 --> 17:19.860 Angry. 17:20.280 --> 17:20.620 Angry. 17:21.460 --> 17:22.220 Absolute anger. 17:22.220 --> 17:22.720 You know, 17:22.760 --> 17:23.180 if we're going 17:23.180 --> 17:23.740 to negotiate 17:23.740 --> 17:25.060 with our adversaries 17:25.060 --> 17:25.580 and they're not 17:25.580 --> 17:26.140 going to follow 17:26.140 --> 17:27.360 even the most basic 17:27.360 --> 17:28.420 international norms, 17:28.680 --> 17:29.720 we need to change 17:29.720 --> 17:30.280 our lenses 17:30.280 --> 17:31.240 and look at these 17:31.240 --> 17:32.260 countries as enemies, 17:32.480 --> 17:33.360 not as competitors. 17:34.200 --> 17:35.220 The enemies are enemies 17:35.220 --> 17:36.740 and there's no difference 17:36.740 --> 17:38.300 between what's being done 17:38.300 --> 17:39.200 in a state of war 17:39.200 --> 17:39.700 and attacking 17:39.700 --> 17:40.740 American citizens. 17:41.560 --> 17:42.420 Kupperman concludes 17:42.420 --> 17:42.980 that the U.S. 17:43.000 --> 17:43.660 is under siege 17:43.660 --> 17:44.800 by a foreign adversary 17:44.800 --> 17:46.220 and something needs 17:46.220 --> 17:47.100 to be done about it. 17:47.100 --> 17:58.920 They are mortified 17:58.920 --> 17:59.480 to this day 17:59.480 --> 18:00.860 that I sent this email. 18:01.180 --> 18:01.900 Not because 18:01.900 --> 18:03.100 everything in it 18:03.100 --> 18:04.360 was 100% true 18:04.360 --> 18:05.120 and factual. 18:06.020 --> 18:06.860 It's because 18:06.860 --> 18:08.360 a U.S. diplomat 18:08.360 --> 18:09.220 is using terms like 18:09.220 --> 18:09.940 lied to 18:09.940 --> 18:10.540 and cover up. 18:13.060 --> 18:14.340 That's after the break. 18:17.100 --> 18:31.280 This summer, 18:31.440 --> 18:32.720 Instacart is bringing back 18:32.720 --> 18:34.400 your favorites from $19.99 18:34.400 --> 18:36.980 with prices from $19.99. 18:37.340 --> 18:39.080 That means 90s prices 18:39.080 --> 18:40.300 on juice pouches 18:40.300 --> 18:41.540 that ought to be respected, 18:41.940 --> 18:44.320 90s prices on box mac and cheese, 18:44.660 --> 18:46.800 and 90s prices on ham, 18:46.800 --> 18:47.240 cheese, 18:47.360 --> 18:48.360 and cracker lunches. 18:48.660 --> 18:50.100 Enjoy all those throwbacks 18:50.100 --> 18:52.080 and more at throwback prices. 18:52.420 --> 18:53.580 Only through Instacart. 18:53.860 --> 18:56.300 $4.72 maximum discount 18:56.300 --> 18:57.980 per $10 of eligible items. 18:58.300 --> 18:59.480 Limit one offer per order. 18:59.680 --> 19:00.820 Expires September 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20:00.960 --> 20:02.680 We pulled so many 20:02.680 --> 20:03.360 all-nighters 20:03.360 --> 20:04.420 to give you this deal 20:04.420 --> 20:05.160 and hey, 20:05.440 --> 20:06.840 stop messing with the mic! 20:07.540 --> 20:08.200 I'm just helping this 20:08.200 --> 20:09.180 catch people's attention. 20:09.440 --> 20:11.440 This is a great deal! 20:12.180 --> 20:12.620 Exactly! 20:12.940 --> 20:13.900 So it doesn't need 20:13.900 --> 20:14.700 all that. 20:15.420 --> 20:15.860 Fine. 20:16.860 --> 20:17.780 Head to your nearest 20:17.780 --> 20:18.460 Boost Mobile store 20:18.460 --> 20:18.960 right now. 20:19.080 --> 20:19.560 Visit your nearest 20:19.560 --> 20:20.020 Boost Mobile store 20:20.020 --> 20:20.720 for full offer details. 20:20.860 --> 20:21.260 Apple Intelligence 20:21.260 --> 20:22.280 requires iOS 18.1 20:22.280 --> 20:22.540 or later. 20:22.640 --> 20:23.120 Restrictions apply. 20:31.120 --> 20:32.760 In early 2018, 20:33.160 --> 20:33.660 Mark Lindsay 20:33.660 --> 20:34.660 is still experiencing 20:34.660 --> 20:36.280 all these intense symptoms 20:36.280 --> 20:37.300 in Guangzhou. 20:37.680 --> 20:38.900 When I evacuated us 20:38.900 --> 20:39.640 from that apartment, 20:39.960 --> 20:40.820 the headaches get 20:40.820 --> 20:41.940 a little bit better 20:41.940 --> 20:43.360 for my wife and I. 20:44.360 --> 20:45.820 So after he finds out 20:45.820 --> 20:46.460 that his neighbor 20:46.460 --> 20:47.320 is getting treatment 20:47.320 --> 20:48.320 back in the States 20:48.320 --> 20:49.800 at the University of Pennsylvania, 20:50.240 --> 20:50.920 he's upset. 20:51.760 --> 20:52.980 His bosses know 20:52.980 --> 20:54.500 that he's also been sick 20:54.500 --> 20:55.460 and that his family 20:55.460 --> 20:56.320 has been sick. 20:56.880 --> 20:57.840 So what do they know 20:57.840 --> 20:58.780 that he doesn't know? 20:59.560 --> 21:00.160 Do they know 21:00.160 --> 21:01.080 what's put his family 21:01.080 --> 21:01.560 at risk? 21:02.160 --> 21:02.780 And if so, 21:03.060 --> 21:03.680 why haven't they 21:03.680 --> 21:04.800 done anything for them? 21:04.800 --> 21:05.960 Why haven't they 21:05.960 --> 21:06.380 moved him 21:06.380 --> 21:07.280 out of Tower 7? 21:08.220 --> 21:08.920 He's worried 21:08.920 --> 21:09.560 that the longer 21:09.560 --> 21:10.340 they stay, 21:10.540 --> 21:11.760 the worse they'll get. 21:12.260 --> 21:13.460 He starts asking 21:13.460 --> 21:14.240 more questions, 21:14.660 --> 21:16.080 but gets no clear answers. 21:16.760 --> 21:17.260 One day, 21:17.360 --> 21:17.860 he corners 21:17.860 --> 21:18.780 one of his bosses 21:18.780 --> 21:19.580 at the consulate. 21:19.820 --> 21:20.080 I said, 21:20.140 --> 21:20.700 what the hell? 21:20.840 --> 21:22.060 That's my neighbor's apartment. 21:22.180 --> 21:23.180 Don't you care about that? 21:23.320 --> 21:24.760 She was medevaced back 21:24.760 --> 21:26.440 because of a brain injury 21:26.440 --> 21:27.560 and you weren't 21:27.560 --> 21:28.140 going to tell me that? 21:28.180 --> 21:28.460 He's like, 21:28.560 --> 21:29.620 I didn't know 21:29.620 --> 21:30.440 that you were neighbors 21:30.440 --> 21:31.500 and I don't care. 21:31.860 --> 21:33.120 Mark's a bit of a hothead 21:33.120 --> 21:34.140 and his anger 21:34.140 --> 21:35.360 is a potential problem 21:35.360 --> 21:36.060 for his bosses. 21:36.560 --> 21:37.440 He's a volcano 21:37.440 --> 21:38.820 that's about to erupt. 21:39.440 --> 21:40.740 But Mark feels like 21:40.740 --> 21:41.860 he's being gaslit 21:41.860 --> 21:42.960 and that he needs 21:42.960 --> 21:43.780 to do something 21:43.780 --> 21:44.780 before any more 21:44.780 --> 21:45.400 of his colleagues 21:45.400 --> 21:45.980 get hurt. 21:46.640 --> 21:47.900 So on May 27, 21:48.340 --> 21:49.120 2018, 21:49.780 --> 21:50.460 he writes 21:50.460 --> 21:52.760 a really lengthy email. 21:53.180 --> 21:54.660 It's two Guangzhou Americans, 21:54.900 --> 21:55.940 which is about 180, 21:56.000 --> 21:56.460 at the time, 21:56.520 --> 21:58.100 185 Americans. 21:58.100 --> 21:59.900 And I cc'd Terry Branstad, 21:59.980 --> 22:01.820 the ambassador in Beijing. 22:02.420 --> 22:03.300 Friends, colleagues, 22:03.420 --> 22:04.160 many of you know me 22:04.160 --> 22:05.480 from organizing football games 22:05.480 --> 22:06.060 with the Marines 22:06.060 --> 22:06.980 or dissing Cornell 22:06.980 --> 22:08.820 during Thursday street hockey. 22:09.020 --> 22:10.000 He describes 22:10.000 --> 22:10.700 what his family 22:10.700 --> 22:11.620 has been going through. 22:11.740 --> 22:12.760 I would also encourage 22:12.760 --> 22:13.640 children who have 22:13.640 --> 22:15.400 had to play, 22:16.380 --> 22:17.440 who have had play dates 22:17.440 --> 22:19.380 with Elise and Tommy, 22:19.500 --> 22:20.200 those are my kids, 22:21.080 --> 22:21.800 at our apartment 22:21.800 --> 22:23.240 to get evaluated as well. 22:24.560 --> 22:24.980 Sorry, 22:25.060 --> 22:25.660 when I talk about 22:25.660 --> 22:26.040 hey kids, 22:26.040 --> 22:27.040 that's... 22:27.040 --> 22:31.640 He doesn't just 22:31.640 --> 22:32.420 warn his colleagues 22:32.420 --> 22:33.200 about their health, 22:33.420 --> 22:34.400 he takes things 22:34.400 --> 22:35.200 a step further. 22:35.500 --> 22:36.540 Over the past two months, 22:36.600 --> 22:37.760 you have been poorly served 22:37.760 --> 22:39.520 by leadership 22:39.520 --> 22:41.000 at U.S. Consulate Guangzhou, 22:41.420 --> 22:42.120 Embassy Beijing, 22:42.400 --> 22:43.520 and from state leadership 22:43.520 --> 22:44.180 in Washington. 22:44.740 --> 22:45.680 An attempted cover-up 22:45.680 --> 22:46.040 has taken place... 22:46.040 --> 22:52.360 This is a stunning accusation 22:52.360 --> 22:53.780 for an active diplomat 22:53.780 --> 22:54.380 in-country 22:54.380 --> 22:55.680 to accuse State Department 22:55.680 --> 22:57.220 leadership of a cover-up, 22:57.880 --> 22:59.100 and so publicly accusing 22:59.100 --> 23:00.080 the American government 23:00.080 --> 23:00.920 of a cover-up, 23:01.140 --> 23:02.100 which it denied. 23:03.140 --> 23:04.600 We asked the State Department 23:04.600 --> 23:05.620 about Mark's story. 23:06.080 --> 23:07.200 They told us that 23:07.200 --> 23:08.660 due to privacy concerns 23:08.660 --> 23:10.280 and for security reasons, 23:10.280 --> 23:11.780 they do not discuss 23:11.780 --> 23:12.900 specific individuals 23:12.900 --> 23:13.580 or events. 23:18.940 --> 23:19.460 Ultimately, 23:19.660 --> 23:20.800 my reporting suggests 23:20.800 --> 23:21.720 that over a dozen 23:21.720 --> 23:22.560 U.S. officials 23:22.560 --> 23:23.780 and their family members 23:23.780 --> 23:25.440 were medically evacuated 23:25.440 --> 23:26.100 from China, 23:26.520 --> 23:27.660 including Mark Lenzi 23:27.660 --> 23:28.500 and his family. 23:29.000 --> 23:30.200 I've spoken to a number 23:30.200 --> 23:30.580 of them, 23:30.940 --> 23:31.900 and for the most part, 23:32.040 --> 23:32.620 they're pissed, 23:32.800 --> 23:33.740 because even though 23:33.740 --> 23:35.360 they were eventually evacuated, 23:35.600 --> 23:36.380 they feel like 23:36.380 --> 23:37.200 they should have been told 23:37.200 --> 23:38.260 sooner that they were 23:38.260 --> 23:38.820 in danger 23:38.820 --> 23:39.760 if the State Department 23:39.760 --> 23:40.380 knew people 23:40.380 --> 23:41.160 were getting sick. 23:41.900 --> 23:42.920 Some of these diplomats, 23:43.040 --> 23:43.600 like Mark, 23:43.840 --> 23:44.520 even believe 23:44.520 --> 23:45.760 that consulate officials 23:45.760 --> 23:46.540 in Guangzhou 23:46.540 --> 23:48.340 intentionally lied to them 23:48.340 --> 23:49.740 and tried to cover up 23:49.740 --> 23:50.700 how much danger 23:50.700 --> 23:51.260 they were in. 23:53.780 --> 23:55.220 I have my own assessment, 23:55.560 --> 23:55.980 which is that 23:55.980 --> 23:56.700 the State Department 23:56.700 --> 23:57.980 was trying to keep things 23:57.980 --> 23:59.240 hush-hush in Guangzhou 23:59.240 --> 24:00.560 because they didn't know 24:00.560 --> 24:01.080 what to make 24:01.080 --> 24:02.020 of the China cases, 24:02.360 --> 24:03.400 and they were trying 24:03.400 --> 24:04.140 to buy themselves 24:04.140 --> 24:04.840 some time 24:04.840 --> 24:05.600 to figure out 24:05.600 --> 24:06.320 what to do. 24:07.160 --> 24:07.940 They didn't want 24:07.940 --> 24:08.580 to be pressured 24:08.580 --> 24:09.460 into a confrontation 24:09.460 --> 24:10.320 with China 24:10.320 --> 24:11.680 without hard information. 24:12.480 --> 24:13.620 The trade relationship 24:13.620 --> 24:14.220 with China 24:14.220 --> 24:14.820 is critical, 24:15.280 --> 24:16.480 and the diplomatic mission 24:16.480 --> 24:17.300 there is one of our 24:17.300 --> 24:17.980 most important 24:17.980 --> 24:18.540 in the world. 24:19.200 --> 24:20.140 They couldn't just use 24:20.140 --> 24:21.020 the same playbook 24:21.020 --> 24:22.000 they followed in Cuba. 24:22.500 --> 24:23.320 They would be playing 24:23.320 --> 24:23.860 with fire. 24:24.940 --> 24:25.800 I can understand 24:25.800 --> 24:27.220 why Mark sent the email, 24:27.680 --> 24:28.680 because he was genuinely 24:28.680 --> 24:29.780 concerned for his 24:29.780 --> 24:30.900 and his family's safety, 24:31.160 --> 24:32.020 and about the safety 24:32.020 --> 24:32.780 of his colleagues. 24:33.580 --> 24:35.180 But I can also understand 24:35.180 --> 24:36.240 why American officials 24:36.240 --> 24:37.460 were unhappy with him, 24:37.460 --> 24:38.700 because the last thing 24:38.700 --> 24:39.200 they wanted 24:39.200 --> 24:39.960 was a panic 24:39.960 --> 24:41.060 and press attention, 24:41.620 --> 24:42.640 which is what they got. 24:44.500 --> 24:45.740 Well, it was frustrating, 24:45.880 --> 24:46.240 obviously, 24:46.420 --> 24:47.900 but this is not a question 24:47.900 --> 24:48.420 of believing 24:48.420 --> 24:49.420 in the deep state. 24:49.660 --> 24:50.780 I'm not saying 24:50.780 --> 24:51.780 that at all. 24:52.200 --> 24:52.920 John Bolton 24:52.920 --> 24:54.200 doesn't see what happened 24:54.200 --> 24:54.760 in China 24:54.760 --> 24:55.680 as a cover-up. 24:55.680 --> 24:56.840 My conclusion 24:56.840 --> 24:58.280 toward the end 24:58.280 --> 24:58.780 of my tenure 24:58.780 --> 24:59.560 at the NSC 24:59.560 --> 25:01.220 was that basically 25:01.220 --> 25:02.080 the docs 25:02.080 --> 25:03.480 in the CIA 25:03.480 --> 25:04.380 and the State Department 25:04.380 --> 25:05.320 just didn't believe 25:05.320 --> 25:06.020 what the people 25:06.020 --> 25:06.680 were telling them. 25:07.060 --> 25:08.100 And if you just think 25:08.100 --> 25:08.640 there's nothing 25:08.640 --> 25:09.260 there there, 25:09.420 --> 25:10.400 then that explains 25:10.400 --> 25:11.100 why a bureaucracy 25:11.100 --> 25:11.840 doesn't move. 25:12.380 --> 25:13.540 This was a situation 25:13.540 --> 25:14.640 where they said, 25:14.780 --> 25:15.380 we don't know. 25:15.840 --> 25:16.700 So you can pound 25:16.700 --> 25:17.240 on somebody 25:17.240 --> 25:18.020 as much as you want, 25:18.100 --> 25:18.940 and if they keep saying, 25:19.200 --> 25:19.760 we don't know, 25:19.840 --> 25:20.460 you can't say 25:20.460 --> 25:21.080 that they're lying. 25:21.160 --> 25:22.260 They may actually 25:22.260 --> 25:22.840 not know. 25:23.300 --> 25:24.300 Regardless of not 25:24.300 --> 25:25.340 knowing what it is, 25:25.720 --> 25:26.500 Bolton comes up 25:26.500 --> 25:27.520 with his own theories 25:27.520 --> 25:29.020 of who might be 25:29.020 --> 25:30.180 behind Havana Syndrome. 25:30.540 --> 25:31.020 Initially, 25:31.200 --> 25:32.080 before the China 25:32.080 --> 25:33.480 cases emerged, 25:33.860 --> 25:34.520 I remember us 25:34.520 --> 25:35.320 having a conversation 25:35.320 --> 25:36.460 in which you thought 25:36.460 --> 25:37.320 China could be 25:37.320 --> 25:38.100 the culprit here. 25:38.440 --> 25:39.500 Why did you think that, 25:39.640 --> 25:40.500 and why did you 25:40.500 --> 25:41.420 have a revision 25:41.420 --> 25:42.960 in your personal assessment 25:42.960 --> 25:44.540 that more likely 25:44.540 --> 25:45.120 it's the Russians? 25:45.560 --> 25:46.340 My first feeling 25:46.340 --> 25:46.980 was that it was 25:46.980 --> 25:47.420 the Russians 25:47.420 --> 25:48.640 because the first incident 25:48.640 --> 25:49.400 had taken place 25:49.400 --> 25:49.900 in Cuba. 25:50.120 --> 25:50.660 And I didn't think 25:50.660 --> 25:51.440 it was the Cubans. 25:51.580 --> 25:53.440 I thought it was 25:53.440 --> 25:53.840 the Russians 25:53.840 --> 25:54.560 when the second 25:54.560 --> 25:55.240 we heard 25:55.240 --> 25:56.060 was in China. 25:56.500 --> 25:56.880 I thought, 25:57.000 --> 25:57.520 well, maybe that's 25:57.520 --> 25:57.940 the Russians 25:57.940 --> 25:59.280 playing around there too. 25:59.860 --> 26:00.700 In a way, 26:00.780 --> 26:01.840 maybe a false flag 26:01.840 --> 26:02.400 operation 26:02.400 --> 26:02.980 to get us 26:02.980 --> 26:04.180 to suspect the Chinese. 26:05.080 --> 26:06.340 Bolton isn't alone 26:06.340 --> 26:07.080 in his thinking. 26:07.760 --> 26:08.240 Because of the 26:08.240 --> 26:09.620 historically close ties 26:09.620 --> 26:10.560 between the Cubans 26:10.560 --> 26:11.120 and Russians, 26:11.500 --> 26:12.120 many assumed 26:12.120 --> 26:12.940 that the thawing 26:12.940 --> 26:13.460 of relations 26:13.460 --> 26:14.280 between the U.S. 26:14.280 --> 26:14.700 and Cuba 26:14.700 --> 26:15.520 was bound 26:15.520 --> 26:16.500 to ruffle feathers. 26:17.440 --> 26:17.940 Remember, 26:18.340 --> 26:19.060 Russia and Cuba 26:19.060 --> 26:19.820 remain close. 26:20.640 --> 26:21.920 And with President Putin's 26:21.920 --> 26:23.020 increasingly hostile 26:23.020 --> 26:23.640 relationship 26:23.640 --> 26:24.200 of the West 26:24.200 --> 26:24.940 ramping up, 26:25.280 --> 26:25.940 I'd been hearing 26:25.940 --> 26:26.580 from sources 26:26.580 --> 26:27.120 that Putin 26:27.120 --> 26:27.840 had been making 26:27.840 --> 26:28.860 deliberate overtures 26:28.860 --> 26:29.740 to keep the Cubans 26:29.740 --> 26:31.700 closer and to expand 26:31.700 --> 26:32.980 his spying capabilities 26:32.980 --> 26:33.720 on the island. 26:34.560 --> 26:35.060 There's another 26:35.060 --> 26:35.920 very big piece 26:35.920 --> 26:37.280 of circumstantial evidence 26:37.280 --> 26:37.580 here. 26:37.960 --> 26:38.440 For decades, 26:38.560 --> 26:39.460 the Russian state 26:39.460 --> 26:40.120 and the USSR 26:40.120 --> 26:40.860 before it 26:40.860 --> 26:42.020 experimented 26:42.020 --> 26:43.420 with microwave technology, 26:43.860 --> 26:44.640 the kind of tech 26:44.640 --> 26:45.520 that Bolton's theme 26:45.520 --> 26:46.540 thought was perhaps 26:46.540 --> 26:47.840 behind Havana syndrome. 26:48.320 --> 26:49.040 We'll go deeper 26:49.040 --> 26:49.540 into this 26:49.540 --> 26:50.420 in our next episode. 26:52.000 --> 26:52.840 So there was 26:52.840 --> 26:53.460 this belief 26:53.460 --> 26:53.940 that Russia 26:53.940 --> 26:54.980 was behind this, 26:55.180 --> 26:55.880 in which case 26:55.880 --> 26:56.680 the false flag 26:56.680 --> 26:58.000 operation makes sense, 26:58.660 --> 26:59.500 attacking people 26:59.500 --> 27:00.000 in China 27:00.000 --> 27:00.660 to make it look 27:00.660 --> 27:01.440 like the Chinese 27:01.440 --> 27:02.160 were involved. 27:02.720 --> 27:03.560 This is exactly 27:03.560 --> 27:04.260 the kind of thing 27:04.260 --> 27:05.120 the Russian government 27:05.120 --> 27:06.160 has done for years. 27:06.740 --> 27:07.780 They try and confuse 27:07.780 --> 27:08.680 and distract. 27:09.540 --> 27:10.080 And this is where 27:10.080 --> 27:10.960 you might assume 27:10.960 --> 27:11.560 that Bolton, 27:11.820 --> 27:12.860 as national security 27:12.860 --> 27:13.300 advisor, 27:13.620 --> 27:14.460 goes to his boss, 27:14.560 --> 27:15.020 the president, 27:15.520 --> 27:16.580 and says something like, 27:16.800 --> 27:17.620 we're under attack, 27:17.620 --> 27:18.860 we need to do something. 27:19.560 --> 27:20.600 But that wasn't the case. 27:21.260 --> 27:22.180 Because we thought 27:22.180 --> 27:23.600 the most likely culprit 27:23.600 --> 27:24.480 was the Russians, 27:24.780 --> 27:25.820 there wasn't really 27:25.820 --> 27:26.840 any point in talking 27:26.840 --> 27:27.940 to Trump about it 27:27.940 --> 27:28.660 because it would have 27:28.660 --> 27:29.540 meant explaining 27:29.540 --> 27:30.800 that almost certainly 27:30.800 --> 27:31.660 with at least 27:31.660 --> 27:32.680 the tacit approval 27:32.680 --> 27:33.620 of Vladimir Putin, 27:33.720 --> 27:34.080 the Russians 27:34.080 --> 27:35.540 were attacking Americans. 27:35.800 --> 27:36.800 At this point, 27:37.200 --> 27:38.120 Trump has been vocal 27:38.120 --> 27:39.220 in denying reports 27:39.220 --> 27:39.760 that Russia 27:39.760 --> 27:40.780 had interfered 27:40.780 --> 27:41.860 on his behalf 27:41.860 --> 27:43.340 in the 2016 election. 27:43.800 --> 27:44.840 So anything involving 27:44.840 --> 27:45.960 Putin or Russia 27:45.960 --> 27:47.300 is already super sensitive. 27:47.620 --> 27:49.020 And Trump is also 27:49.020 --> 27:49.860 very suspicious 27:49.860 --> 27:50.660 of the CIA 27:50.660 --> 27:51.980 and dismissive 27:51.980 --> 27:53.300 of any of their findings. 27:53.620 --> 27:54.860 One thing that I concluded 27:54.860 --> 27:55.960 fairly early was 27:55.960 --> 27:56.420 there were only 27:56.420 --> 27:57.160 so many things 27:57.160 --> 27:57.780 you could put on 27:57.780 --> 27:58.620 his radar screen 27:58.620 --> 27:59.640 at any one time. 28:01.020 --> 28:02.040 Because the Trump 28:02.040 --> 28:02.520 administration 28:02.520 --> 28:03.520 was so chaotic, 28:03.780 --> 28:04.440 maybe we've grown 28:04.440 --> 28:05.520 accustomed to stories 28:05.520 --> 28:06.080 like this. 28:06.660 --> 28:06.960 Still, 28:07.180 --> 28:08.640 it's shocking to me 28:08.640 --> 28:09.260 that a sitting 28:09.260 --> 28:10.480 national security advisor 28:10.480 --> 28:11.520 wouldn't tell his boss, 28:11.620 --> 28:12.120 the president, 28:12.640 --> 28:13.800 about his suspicions 28:13.800 --> 28:14.520 that Russia was 28:14.520 --> 28:15.780 attacking U.S. citizens. 28:15.780 --> 28:28.760 This is an NBC News 28:28.760 --> 28:29.780 special report. 28:30.020 --> 28:30.960 Well, there were cheers 28:30.960 --> 28:32.440 outside Buckingham Palace 28:32.440 --> 28:34.100 here as Marine One 28:34.100 --> 28:35.780 elegantly swooped down 28:35.780 --> 28:37.220 behind Buckingham Palace there. 28:37.520 --> 28:38.380 An entourage 28:38.380 --> 28:39.500 of the royal family 28:39.500 --> 28:40.060 who will meet 28:40.060 --> 28:40.680 the president's. 28:40.680 --> 28:42.900 At the end of John Bolton's 28:42.900 --> 28:43.800 first year serving 28:43.800 --> 28:44.980 in the Trump administration, 28:45.440 --> 28:46.620 Havana syndrome seemed 28:46.620 --> 28:48.060 to mostly affect diplomats 28:48.060 --> 28:49.500 and spies who were abroad 28:49.500 --> 28:51.280 in places with governments 28:51.280 --> 28:52.840 hostile to the United States 28:52.840 --> 28:54.700 like Cuba, Russia, 28:54.920 --> 28:55.640 and China. 28:56.320 --> 28:57.240 Bolton and Kupperman 28:57.240 --> 28:58.760 themselves didn't know 28:58.760 --> 28:59.440 any of the victims 28:59.440 --> 29:00.060 personally. 29:00.860 --> 29:02.180 But that was about to change. 29:02.320 --> 29:02.900 In London, 29:03.020 --> 29:04.080 the president landed 29:04.080 --> 29:04.600 in the U.K. 29:04.660 --> 29:05.480 a few hours ago. 29:05.620 --> 29:06.460 He will be received 29:06.460 --> 29:06.880 this morning 29:06.880 --> 29:07.740 by Queen Elizabeth. 29:07.740 --> 29:11.420 In June of 2019, 29:12.160 --> 29:13.120 Bolton and his team 29:13.120 --> 29:13.760 were in London 29:13.760 --> 29:15.060 for a state visit, 29:15.480 --> 29:16.440 staying at the same 29:16.440 --> 29:17.120 ritzy hotel 29:17.120 --> 29:18.420 as almost everyone else 29:18.420 --> 29:19.140 from the White House 29:19.140 --> 29:19.720 delegation. 29:20.800 --> 29:21.600 And over the course 29:21.600 --> 29:22.520 of a couple days, 29:22.960 --> 29:23.780 two of Bolton's 29:23.780 --> 29:25.040 own staff members 29:25.040 --> 29:26.380 reported incidents 29:26.380 --> 29:27.020 that sounded 29:27.020 --> 29:27.980 eerily familiar. 29:28.520 --> 29:29.480 What was your reaction 29:29.480 --> 29:30.500 when you heard 29:30.500 --> 29:31.900 that these two people 29:31.900 --> 29:33.260 were affected like this? 29:33.620 --> 29:34.940 Given the location, 29:35.240 --> 29:36.100 I took it to mean 29:36.100 --> 29:37.300 that somebody had targeted 29:37.300 --> 29:37.980 the hotel, 29:38.260 --> 29:39.060 knowing that that's 29:39.060 --> 29:39.700 where pretty much 29:39.700 --> 29:40.660 everybody on the U.S. 29:40.760 --> 29:42.280 delegation was staying. 29:42.620 --> 29:43.460 I guess what I thought 29:43.460 --> 29:44.240 was thereafter 29:44.240 --> 29:45.180 White House personnel. 29:51.580 --> 29:52.500 I've been told 29:52.500 --> 29:53.700 not just by Bolton, 29:53.880 --> 29:55.000 but by other officials 29:55.000 --> 29:55.960 in the U.S. government 29:55.960 --> 29:57.000 that this was 29:57.000 --> 29:58.000 a pivotal moment. 29:58.660 --> 30:00.060 It was a wake-up call 30:00.060 --> 30:00.840 at the White House. 30:00.840 --> 30:02.140 It suggested that 30:02.140 --> 30:03.500 anyone could be targeted 30:03.500 --> 30:04.960 anywhere in the world. 30:06.100 --> 30:07.660 And so, of course, 30:08.000 --> 30:08.920 we wanted to visit 30:08.920 --> 30:09.940 the scene of the crime. 30:24.740 --> 30:25.960 What's that sound, Adam? 30:27.120 --> 30:28.240 I think you should ask 30:28.240 --> 30:28.640 John Lee. 30:28.740 --> 30:29.420 I'm not actually sure 30:29.420 --> 30:30.140 what I'm listening to. 30:30.380 --> 30:31.600 John Lee, what's that sound? 30:31.680 --> 30:32.400 Well, we're walking 30:32.400 --> 30:33.100 along the side 30:33.100 --> 30:33.980 of Buckingham Palace 30:33.980 --> 30:34.900 and it's the changing 30:34.900 --> 30:35.520 of the guards. 30:36.320 --> 30:37.640 I think you know by now 30:37.640 --> 30:38.920 that if there's one thing 30:38.920 --> 30:39.740 you can count on 30:39.740 --> 30:40.680 John Lee for, 30:41.060 --> 30:42.540 it's some scenic description. 30:42.880 --> 30:43.720 You can see them 30:43.720 --> 30:45.220 out there in their 30:45.220 --> 30:46.920 bear hats 30:46.920 --> 30:48.000 and their serried ranks. 30:48.140 --> 30:48.700 Look at what they're wearing. 30:48.880 --> 30:49.920 They're the great, 30:49.980 --> 30:52.360 great coats for winter. 30:52.520 --> 30:52.980 They're gray. 30:53.380 --> 30:54.780 Towards the end of 2021, 30:55.260 --> 30:56.420 our team went to London. 30:56.420 --> 30:58.960 We are visiting the site 30:58.960 --> 31:01.760 where in June 2019, 31:02.480 --> 31:05.380 two NSC staff members 31:05.380 --> 31:08.180 said they were in the hotel room 31:08.180 --> 31:11.080 when they felt tremendous pressure 31:11.080 --> 31:12.280 in their heads 31:12.280 --> 31:13.820 and heard a strange sound 31:13.820 --> 31:14.500 in their ears 31:14.500 --> 31:15.860 and believed that they were 31:15.860 --> 31:16.440 under attack. 31:16.800 --> 31:17.560 As journalists, 31:17.760 --> 31:19.100 there's just no substitute 31:19.100 --> 31:20.380 for actually going somewhere 31:20.380 --> 31:21.820 and seeing with your own eyes 31:21.820 --> 31:23.220 where an event has happened. 31:23.220 --> 31:24.540 And we were sure 31:24.540 --> 31:26.220 our keen investigative instincts 31:26.220 --> 31:27.160 wouldn't fail us. 31:27.500 --> 31:29.160 With two world-class reporters 31:29.160 --> 31:29.880 on the case, 31:30.300 --> 31:31.980 nothing was going to sidetrack us. 31:32.260 --> 31:33.200 Hey, hey, hey, hold on. 31:33.280 --> 31:34.200 Do you guys know 31:34.200 --> 31:34.600 where we're going? 31:36.080 --> 31:37.040 I thought we were 31:37.040 --> 31:38.140 following John Lee. 31:38.840 --> 31:40.120 Well, if you want to use your GPS, 31:40.900 --> 31:42.240 this is telling me 31:42.240 --> 31:43.740 we're supposed to go 31:43.740 --> 31:44.460 around that circle. 31:45.580 --> 31:45.780 Hmm. 31:46.480 --> 31:46.840 Dunno. 31:47.240 --> 31:47.460 Okay. 31:49.460 --> 31:50.340 I'm just lost. 31:51.060 --> 31:52.160 I'm playing some way. 31:52.160 --> 31:52.520 Is it? 31:52.600 --> 31:53.600 So I'm turned around. 31:53.840 --> 31:54.120 Yeah. 31:54.480 --> 31:55.400 We're on this side 31:55.400 --> 31:56.480 of Buckingham Palace. 31:56.680 --> 31:57.220 And the first way 31:57.220 --> 31:58.260 is just to go across 31:58.260 --> 31:59.220 and go through the park 31:59.220 --> 32:00.360 and come across. 32:00.360 --> 32:00.960 Okay, thank you very much. 32:00.960 --> 32:01.240 Thank you. 32:01.420 --> 32:02.180 We can get across 32:02.180 --> 32:02.620 if we hurry. 32:02.820 --> 32:03.500 Another American 32:03.500 --> 32:04.400 told us what to do. 32:04.520 --> 32:04.880 That's fine. 32:05.620 --> 32:07.000 I just have to say here 32:07.000 --> 32:07.600 that John Lee 32:07.600 --> 32:08.940 actually lives in England. 32:09.760 --> 32:10.560 But anyway, 32:10.780 --> 32:12.260 now nothing is going 32:12.260 --> 32:13.240 to sidetrack us. 32:13.780 --> 32:14.800 I think the thing 32:14.800 --> 32:15.480 to keep in mind 32:15.480 --> 32:16.080 about London, 32:16.480 --> 32:17.560 London is also 32:17.560 --> 32:19.080 part of the Five Eyes. 32:19.640 --> 32:21.320 So it's one of the countries, 32:21.320 --> 32:22.600 one of the five countries 32:22.600 --> 32:23.640 that includes 32:23.640 --> 32:24.480 the United States, 32:24.680 --> 32:25.700 the U.K., 32:25.700 --> 32:26.220 Australia, 32:26.480 --> 32:26.960 New Zealand, 32:27.640 --> 32:27.940 you know, 32:28.120 --> 32:28.460 Canada, 32:28.660 --> 32:30.160 that the U.S. 32:30.280 --> 32:31.320 shares all of its 32:31.320 --> 32:32.840 most sensitive intelligence 32:32.840 --> 32:33.720 with. 32:34.100 --> 32:35.140 This is something 32:35.140 --> 32:35.800 that came out 32:35.800 --> 32:36.540 of World War II. 32:37.380 --> 32:38.260 As we walked 32:38.260 --> 32:39.080 toward the hotel 32:39.080 --> 32:39.680 where Bolton 32:39.680 --> 32:40.080 and the rest 32:40.080 --> 32:40.680 of the White House 32:40.680 --> 32:41.500 team were staying, 32:41.980 --> 32:42.840 we started thinking 32:42.840 --> 32:43.540 about how much 32:43.540 --> 32:44.380 of a game changer 32:44.380 --> 32:45.100 it was for people 32:45.100 --> 32:46.160 to get sick here. 32:46.580 --> 32:46.900 Yeah, 32:47.060 --> 32:47.860 because the U.K. 32:47.860 --> 32:48.600 is the closest 32:48.600 --> 32:49.240 of allies 32:49.240 --> 32:50.280 to the United States. 32:50.660 --> 32:50.960 Still, 32:51.060 --> 32:51.260 though, 32:51.460 --> 32:52.400 I wasn't entirely 32:52.400 --> 32:53.180 shocked when I heard 32:53.180 --> 32:54.080 that Havana syndrome 32:54.080 --> 32:54.940 struck London. 32:55.340 --> 32:56.280 Explosions at three 32:56.280 --> 32:57.680 separate subway stations 32:57.680 --> 32:58.820 tore through trains 32:58.820 --> 32:59.600 and ripped apart 32:59.600 --> 33:00.560 a double-decker bus 33:00.560 --> 33:02.320 like it was a tin can. 33:02.600 --> 33:02.960 There have been 33:02.960 --> 33:03.880 plenty of terrorist 33:03.880 --> 33:04.880 attacks in the U.K. 33:04.940 --> 33:06.040 over the past few decades. 33:06.240 --> 33:07.520 Alexander Litvinenko's 33:07.520 --> 33:08.460 death from acute 33:08.460 --> 33:09.540 radiation sickness 33:09.540 --> 33:10.320 was slow 33:10.320 --> 33:11.460 and agonizing. 33:11.740 --> 33:12.220 As he lay 33:12.220 --> 33:13.100 on his deathbed, 33:13.500 --> 33:14.040 he told them 33:14.040 --> 33:14.820 he'd been targeted 33:14.820 --> 33:15.540 by the Russian 33:15.540 --> 33:16.620 Secret Service. 33:16.620 --> 33:21.860 Hold on, 33:21.880 --> 33:22.800 so this is it? 33:23.120 --> 33:23.880 This is the hotel? 33:24.660 --> 33:24.820 Yeah, 33:24.900 --> 33:25.800 this is the Park Lane 33:25.800 --> 33:26.560 Intercontinental. 33:27.140 --> 33:28.000 The last time I was here, 33:28.100 --> 33:28.960 I came for tea 33:28.960 --> 33:30.060 with General Pinochet 33:30.060 --> 33:32.040 in 1998, 33:32.280 --> 33:33.280 just before he was 33:33.280 --> 33:34.080 arrested. 33:34.660 --> 33:35.100 Pinochet, 33:35.380 --> 33:36.240 as in the dictator 33:36.240 --> 33:37.060 who ruled Chile 33:37.060 --> 33:38.320 for almost two decades. 33:38.520 --> 33:39.720 This is where he stayed. 33:40.600 --> 33:40.960 Oh boy. 33:41.260 --> 33:41.460 Yeah. 33:42.100 --> 33:42.700 Every year, 33:42.760 --> 33:43.620 he would come to London. 33:44.140 --> 33:44.800 He was a friend 33:44.800 --> 33:47.060 of then-former 33:47.060 --> 33:47.760 Prime Minister 33:47.760 --> 33:48.800 Maggie Thatcher. 33:49.680 --> 33:49.920 You know, 33:49.980 --> 33:51.460 this is the very heart 33:51.460 --> 33:54.000 of elite London. 33:55.000 --> 33:55.580 Why do, 33:55.640 --> 33:55.900 say, 33:56.000 --> 33:56.940 high-level foreign 33:56.940 --> 33:57.460 delegations 33:57.460 --> 33:58.220 stay in this area? 33:58.340 --> 33:58.620 Because, 33:59.080 --> 33:59.280 I mean, 33:59.320 --> 33:59.920 look around you. 34:00.400 --> 34:01.120 We're very near 34:01.120 --> 34:01.860 Buckingham Palace. 34:02.000 --> 34:02.480 We're right across 34:02.480 --> 34:03.280 from Hyde Park. 34:03.640 --> 34:04.340 Every other car 34:04.340 --> 34:04.880 on the street 34:04.880 --> 34:07.020 is either bodyguards 34:07.020 --> 34:07.760 or chauffeured, 34:07.860 --> 34:08.260 limos, 34:08.380 --> 34:08.580 you know, 34:08.640 --> 34:09.740 it's safe London. 34:10.080 --> 34:10.260 Yeah. 34:11.220 --> 34:11.680 So we go in? 34:11.900 --> 34:12.220 Okay. 34:12.620 --> 34:12.940 Let's do it. 34:12.940 --> 34:17.640 Let me see 34:17.640 --> 34:18.420 what I have 34:18.420 --> 34:19.600 ready for you 34:19.600 --> 34:19.960 if you need 34:19.960 --> 34:20.720 the check-in now, 34:20.820 --> 34:21.040 sir. 34:21.280 --> 34:21.640 Thank you. 34:22.220 --> 34:22.960 Both of the London 34:22.960 --> 34:24.480 victims felt the symptoms 34:24.480 --> 34:25.040 while they were 34:25.040 --> 34:25.900 in a hotel room, 34:26.340 --> 34:26.960 so we checked 34:26.960 --> 34:27.600 into a room 34:27.600 --> 34:28.720 in the hotel ourselves. 34:29.120 --> 34:30.280 It's about 15 34:30.280 --> 34:31.280 by 18 feet. 34:31.680 --> 34:32.020 The room, 34:32.160 --> 34:32.460 frankly, 34:32.560 --> 34:33.000 wasn't much 34:33.000 --> 34:33.640 to look at. 34:33.960 --> 34:34.480 And then there's 34:34.480 --> 34:35.140 a little hallway 34:35.140 --> 34:35.840 and a bathroom. 34:36.040 --> 34:37.660 It's a big wooden, 34:37.980 --> 34:38.240 you know, 34:38.320 --> 34:39.240 rosewood-type bureau 34:39.240 --> 34:40.360 with a TV in it. 34:40.360 --> 34:41.620 But it's, 34:41.660 --> 34:41.780 yeah, 34:41.900 --> 34:43.540 it's a very 34:43.540 --> 34:44.780 overpriced 34:44.780 --> 34:46.720 London hotel room. 34:46.800 --> 34:47.800 It's not very impressive. 34:50.260 --> 34:51.680 But what happened here 34:51.680 --> 34:53.120 to John Bolton's aides 34:53.120 --> 34:54.800 marked another turning point. 34:56.060 --> 34:57.140 I know a lot 34:57.140 --> 34:57.760 of the details 34:57.760 --> 34:58.740 of what happened here. 34:58.980 --> 35:00.020 I spoke to the victims 35:00.020 --> 35:00.580 themselves 35:00.580 --> 35:01.940 and their superiors. 35:02.540 --> 35:04.120 But there are some facts 35:04.120 --> 35:05.040 I'm still missing. 35:05.040 --> 35:07.840 It's early on the morning 35:07.840 --> 35:09.660 of June 3rd, 2019. 35:10.400 --> 35:11.140 Bolton's aide 35:11.140 --> 35:11.940 wakes up early. 35:13.160 --> 35:14.260 And she wakes up early 35:14.260 --> 35:15.280 because her job 35:15.280 --> 35:16.220 is to prepare 35:16.220 --> 35:16.860 the paperwork 35:16.860 --> 35:18.220 for John Bolton 35:18.220 --> 35:19.240 to start his day. 35:20.060 --> 35:21.320 And after she finishes, 35:21.580 --> 35:22.920 she goes to the breakfast room 35:22.920 --> 35:23.600 in the lobby. 35:25.260 --> 35:26.160 It's around 35:26.160 --> 35:26.720 nine o'clock 35:26.720 --> 35:27.200 in the morning. 35:27.540 --> 35:28.360 She comes back up 35:28.360 --> 35:28.980 to her room, 35:29.100 --> 35:30.300 which overlooks the park. 35:31.100 --> 35:32.740 The blinds are open. 35:32.740 --> 35:34.280 And she sits down 35:34.280 --> 35:36.240 and she's, 35:36.340 --> 35:36.680 you know, 35:36.780 --> 35:37.820 checking her emails 35:37.820 --> 35:38.900 and, you know, 35:39.000 --> 35:39.860 on her phone 35:39.860 --> 35:40.700 and on her laptop. 35:44.340 --> 35:46.020 And that's when she feels 35:46.020 --> 35:48.140 a burst of pressure 35:48.140 --> 35:48.760 in her head 35:48.760 --> 35:50.640 and ringing in her ears. 35:51.140 --> 35:52.760 And she has no idea 35:52.760 --> 35:53.480 what's happening. 35:54.140 --> 35:54.920 She freaks out 35:54.920 --> 35:55.800 and she rushes 35:55.800 --> 35:56.800 out the door 35:56.800 --> 35:57.340 of her room 35:57.340 --> 35:58.140 into the hallway. 35:58.920 --> 36:00.000 And suddenly, 36:00.000 --> 36:03.060 the pressure stops. 36:03.540 --> 36:04.120 She's fine. 36:07.220 --> 36:08.040 Then later, 36:08.160 --> 36:09.200 during the same trip, 36:09.500 --> 36:10.380 the second incident, 36:11.620 --> 36:12.300 she's got a more 36:12.300 --> 36:13.160 junior colleague 36:13.160 --> 36:14.440 who does the same job. 36:14.720 --> 36:15.460 They are planning 36:15.460 --> 36:16.780 on going to dinner together. 36:17.180 --> 36:17.780 And so, 36:17.980 --> 36:19.300 the more senior staffer 36:19.300 --> 36:20.240 invites the more 36:20.240 --> 36:21.080 junior staffer 36:21.080 --> 36:22.040 to come to her room. 36:23.400 --> 36:23.820 And so, 36:23.900 --> 36:24.660 they're in the room 36:24.660 --> 36:25.760 by the couches again. 36:25.840 --> 36:26.620 The blinds are open. 36:26.620 --> 36:28.800 And they both feel 36:28.800 --> 36:29.660 the pressure 36:29.660 --> 36:30.480 and the pain. 36:31.240 --> 36:32.420 And one of them says, 36:32.520 --> 36:33.420 do you feel that? 36:33.780 --> 36:34.560 The other one says, 36:34.640 --> 36:35.220 yes, I do. 36:35.840 --> 36:36.860 That discomfort 36:36.860 --> 36:37.920 just kept on growing 36:37.920 --> 36:38.420 and growing. 36:39.140 --> 36:40.360 And they both, 36:40.600 --> 36:40.860 again, 36:41.120 --> 36:41.920 rush out of the room. 36:43.040 --> 36:43.540 Immediately, 36:43.760 --> 36:45.020 the sensations stop. 36:49.560 --> 36:50.840 This is the first time 36:50.840 --> 36:51.840 where you had 36:51.840 --> 36:52.560 two people 36:52.560 --> 36:53.120 experiencing 36:53.120 --> 36:54.000 the same thing 36:54.000 --> 36:55.100 at the same time. 36:55.100 --> 36:56.220 and actually 36:56.220 --> 36:57.080 discussing it 36:57.080 --> 36:57.740 real time, 36:58.140 --> 36:58.720 which made 36:58.720 --> 37:00.960 this particular episode 37:00.960 --> 37:02.240 especially credible 37:02.240 --> 37:02.940 in my mind. 37:03.960 --> 37:04.480 I see you. 37:07.740 --> 37:08.380 Yeah, 37:08.580 --> 37:09.400 so the room 37:09.400 --> 37:10.280 that I was describing 37:10.280 --> 37:11.980 is directly above us. 37:12.500 --> 37:13.520 We head downstairs 37:13.520 --> 37:14.920 to the hotel's bar. 37:15.980 --> 37:16.660 The victims 37:16.660 --> 37:18.160 were in a room 37:18.160 --> 37:19.360 directly above us. 37:19.880 --> 37:20.680 And when you look 37:20.680 --> 37:21.460 out the window, 37:22.140 --> 37:22.580 there's, 37:22.720 --> 37:23.180 you know, 37:23.320 --> 37:24.200 there's enough space 37:24.200 --> 37:25.340 only that as far 37:25.340 --> 37:25.880 as I can tell 37:25.880 --> 37:26.960 for two vehicles. 37:27.700 --> 37:28.800 And there are two 37:28.800 --> 37:30.040 vans that are 37:30.040 --> 37:31.200 parked in the spots. 37:31.640 --> 37:32.000 Nondescript. 37:32.340 --> 37:33.920 One is a utility van. 37:34.000 --> 37:34.620 The other has 37:34.620 --> 37:35.480 no markings on it. 37:35.540 --> 37:36.380 It could be anything. 37:36.460 --> 37:36.940 We don't know. 37:37.080 --> 37:37.220 Yeah. 37:37.840 --> 37:38.120 And, 37:38.180 --> 37:39.500 but they wouldn't be there 37:39.500 --> 37:40.380 without the hotel's 37:40.380 --> 37:41.360 say-so or okay. 37:41.760 --> 37:43.100 It's just hard to see, 37:43.180 --> 37:43.900 you know, 37:43.940 --> 37:44.560 where anybody 37:44.560 --> 37:45.840 would have line of sight 37:45.840 --> 37:47.680 to the rooms above us. 37:47.680 --> 37:50.620 It just is hard to see. 37:50.700 --> 37:51.200 I think we need 37:51.200 --> 37:51.780 to go outside. 37:52.000 --> 37:52.020 Yeah, 37:52.020 --> 37:52.760 let's go outside 37:52.760 --> 37:53.160 and see. 37:53.220 --> 37:54.320 And see if we look up. 37:54.360 --> 37:55.360 There's a war memorial 37:55.360 --> 37:56.140 over there. 37:59.280 --> 37:59.680 Oh, 37:59.760 --> 38:00.020 sorry. 38:03.240 --> 38:03.820 All right. 38:06.320 --> 38:06.920 All right. 38:07.600 --> 38:07.820 Well, 38:07.860 --> 38:08.100 you know, 38:08.200 --> 38:08.860 I take back 38:08.860 --> 38:09.500 what I said. 38:10.460 --> 38:10.620 Look. 38:10.620 --> 38:11.700 Adam pointed up 38:11.700 --> 38:12.480 to some windows 38:12.480 --> 38:13.320 on the second floor 38:13.320 --> 38:13.960 of the hotel. 38:14.180 --> 38:14.620 We're standing 38:14.620 --> 38:15.800 outside the hotel, 38:15.800 --> 38:17.560 directly in front 38:17.560 --> 38:18.640 of where 38:18.640 --> 38:20.700 the room was, 38:20.980 --> 38:21.860 which is above 38:21.860 --> 38:22.620 the bar area 38:22.620 --> 38:23.580 that we just were in 38:23.580 --> 38:24.700 and the restaurant. 38:25.340 --> 38:26.180 The rooms we're talking 38:26.180 --> 38:26.880 about are, 38:27.820 --> 38:29.180 the row that she's in 38:29.180 --> 38:29.820 is this row. 38:30.020 --> 38:30.200 Yeah. 38:30.500 --> 38:31.420 And the way 38:31.420 --> 38:32.180 it's situated 38:32.180 --> 38:35.040 is they're built out. 38:35.620 --> 38:37.140 Every other room 38:37.140 --> 38:38.260 sticks out. 38:38.660 --> 38:39.880 From where we are, 38:40.640 --> 38:41.140 you can see 38:41.140 --> 38:42.100 the back of the chairs 38:42.100 --> 38:43.760 in the room. 38:44.340 --> 38:44.820 And so, 38:44.820 --> 38:46.040 so frankly, 38:46.360 --> 38:47.920 I didn't realize 38:47.920 --> 38:49.420 how visible 38:49.420 --> 38:50.660 it would be. 38:50.800 --> 38:51.580 But if you were, 38:51.660 --> 38:52.460 if you were sitting 38:52.460 --> 38:53.960 on one of those chairs, 38:55.020 --> 38:55.240 you're, 38:55.240 --> 38:56.760 you're a clear line of sight 38:56.760 --> 38:57.100 from, 38:57.360 --> 38:58.320 from the sidewalk 38:58.320 --> 38:58.840 out front. 38:59.180 --> 38:59.860 And if somebody 38:59.860 --> 39:00.340 were actually 39:00.340 --> 39:00.960 in the room 39:00.960 --> 39:02.060 standing or sitting, 39:02.440 --> 39:03.300 you'd be able to, 39:03.400 --> 39:04.120 you'd see their head, 39:04.640 --> 39:04.920 you know, 39:04.960 --> 39:05.720 their head and shoulder 39:05.720 --> 39:06.220 easily. 39:06.480 --> 39:07.320 You're very exposed. 39:07.440 --> 39:08.120 You are exposed, 39:08.220 --> 39:08.500 actually. 39:09.420 --> 39:10.220 Much more exposed 39:10.220 --> 39:10.840 than I realized. 39:10.840 --> 39:15.280 Just below those 39:15.280 --> 39:15.960 exposed windows 39:15.960 --> 39:17.240 is a very short street. 39:17.620 --> 39:18.380 And on that street 39:18.380 --> 39:19.200 are two public 39:19.200 --> 39:20.040 parking spaces, 39:20.480 --> 39:21.500 which is super rare. 39:22.040 --> 39:22.560 There are almost 39:22.560 --> 39:23.660 no parking spaces 39:23.660 --> 39:25.020 in this entire neighborhood. 39:25.720 --> 39:26.880 Which is all to say, 39:27.000 --> 39:27.740 if you had a big 39:27.740 --> 39:28.600 experimental weapon 39:28.600 --> 39:29.580 that needed to be moved 39:29.580 --> 39:30.740 in a large vehicle 39:30.740 --> 39:31.560 to keep it hidden, 39:31.820 --> 39:33.240 these two parking spots 39:33.240 --> 39:33.920 are perhaps 39:33.920 --> 39:34.920 the only ones 39:34.920 --> 39:35.460 in the neighborhood 39:35.460 --> 39:36.320 where you could park. 39:36.320 --> 39:37.720 on that day 39:37.720 --> 39:38.140 that we stood 39:38.140 --> 39:38.960 in front of the hotel, 39:39.520 --> 39:40.620 a big white van 39:40.620 --> 39:41.240 was parked 39:41.240 --> 39:42.300 in one of those spaces. 39:42.900 --> 39:44.440 And it had a perfect view 39:44.440 --> 39:45.160 of the room 39:45.160 --> 39:46.380 in which Bolton's aides 39:46.380 --> 39:46.900 had sat. 39:47.520 --> 39:48.480 You could sit here 39:48.480 --> 39:49.140 in a van 39:49.140 --> 39:50.060 and do whatever 39:50.060 --> 39:50.720 you were going to do 39:50.720 --> 39:52.000 to zap somebody up front. 39:58.860 --> 39:59.740 Our colleagues 39:59.740 --> 40:00.860 came back from the trip 40:00.860 --> 40:01.460 and, you know, 40:01.520 --> 40:02.220 came in and said 40:02.220 --> 40:03.460 something very strange 40:03.460 --> 40:04.180 happened while we were 40:04.180 --> 40:04.540 in London 40:04.540 --> 40:05.800 and we don't understand it. 40:05.800 --> 40:06.920 Charlie Kupperman, 40:07.160 --> 40:07.940 former Deputy 40:07.940 --> 40:09.300 National Security Advisor. 40:09.400 --> 40:10.280 When you hear 40:10.280 --> 40:11.180 that two people 40:11.180 --> 40:12.060 on your team 40:12.060 --> 40:13.300 undergo this, 40:13.440 --> 40:14.360 have this experience, 40:14.700 --> 40:15.680 does it feel like 40:15.680 --> 40:16.660 the team, 40:16.800 --> 40:17.840 the White House itself, 40:18.100 --> 40:19.360 is the target? 40:19.620 --> 40:20.500 Yes, it does. 40:21.400 --> 40:22.140 It does feel like 40:22.140 --> 40:22.580 the White House 40:22.580 --> 40:23.080 is the target 40:23.080 --> 40:23.840 because the National 40:23.840 --> 40:24.540 Security Council 40:24.540 --> 40:25.420 is a key component 40:25.420 --> 40:26.120 in the White House. 40:26.660 --> 40:27.500 They're basically 40:27.500 --> 40:28.600 sending us a message 40:28.600 --> 40:29.540 that we can reach out 40:29.540 --> 40:30.160 and touch you 40:30.160 --> 40:30.780 any time, 40:30.880 --> 40:31.960 any place we want to. 40:35.800 --> 40:38.220 After the events 40:38.220 --> 40:38.680 in London, 40:39.280 --> 40:39.820 Havana Syndrome 40:39.820 --> 40:41.140 seems to keep spreading. 40:41.840 --> 40:42.480 U.S. officials 40:42.480 --> 40:43.420 report incidents 40:43.420 --> 40:44.260 in Colombia, 40:44.640 --> 40:45.320 Kyrgyzstan, 40:45.640 --> 40:45.960 Germany, 40:46.300 --> 40:46.600 India. 40:47.340 --> 40:47.940 Sometimes people 40:47.940 --> 40:48.720 get sick in their 40:48.720 --> 40:49.140 apartments, 40:49.560 --> 40:50.700 sometimes in their cars, 40:51.280 --> 40:52.180 sometimes walking 40:52.180 --> 40:52.900 down the street. 40:53.700 --> 40:54.780 To paraphrase 40:54.780 --> 40:55.700 Charlie Kupperman, 40:56.100 --> 40:56.760 it seems like 40:56.760 --> 40:57.380 Havana Syndrome 40:57.380 --> 40:58.420 can touch anyone, 40:58.960 --> 40:59.380 anywhere, 40:59.760 --> 41:00.520 at any time. 41:00.520 --> 41:06.540 which begs the question, 41:07.280 --> 41:08.360 if Kupperman is right 41:08.360 --> 41:09.100 and there's a weapon 41:09.100 --> 41:10.180 making people ill, 41:10.720 --> 41:11.700 what kind of weapon 41:11.700 --> 41:12.420 would that be? 41:22.560 --> 41:24.080 That's on the next episode 41:24.080 --> 41:25.160 of Havana Syndrome. 41:30.520 --> 41:50.500 Havana Syndrome 41:50.500 --> 41:51.580 is hosted and reported 41:51.580 --> 41:52.620 by Adam Entous 41:52.620 --> 41:53.200 and me, 41:53.460 --> 41:54.200 John Lee Anderson. 41:54.640 --> 41:55.820 It's produced and reported 41:55.820 --> 41:56.800 by Julia Nutter, 41:57.140 --> 41:58.600 Jesse Alejandro Cottrell, 41:58.600 --> 42:00.300 and Ramon Campos-Iriarte. 42:00.520 --> 42:02.240 And edited and executive 42:02.240 --> 42:03.720 produced by Annie Aviles 42:03.720 --> 42:05.020 and Kate Osborne 42:05.020 --> 42:06.560 with original composition 42:06.560 --> 42:07.580 and sound design 42:07.580 --> 42:08.580 by Steve Bone.