WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:16.740 Oh, there he is, I think. I think that's him. 00:22.740 --> 00:24.020 Never been on a testicle before. 00:24.520 --> 00:25.500 Ah, this will be fun. 00:25.500 --> 00:32.700 So I've never, I've never opened a Tesla door before. 00:33.180 --> 00:34.680 How are you doing, man? Are you good? 00:35.140 --> 00:36.280 Is everyone boosted? 00:36.540 --> 00:39.800 Yeah, I'm boosted and actually I had it like two weeks ago. 00:40.020 --> 00:41.800 So I'm, I am boosted. 00:41.900 --> 00:44.180 And he also had it like a couple of years ago. 00:44.200 --> 00:44.600 I never had it. 00:44.620 --> 00:45.240 Oh, you never had it? 00:45.280 --> 00:45.420 No. 00:45.600 --> 00:45.780 No. 00:46.600 --> 00:48.280 Oh, well, this is good. You get it on this trip. 00:48.600 --> 00:49.380 I do not. 00:50.300 --> 00:52.060 Do you mind if I stick something in your trunk? 00:52.920 --> 00:53.280 Yeah. 00:55.500 --> 00:56.620 Yeah, I'll sit in the back. 01:01.980 --> 01:03.260 How long have you been living here? 01:08.060 --> 01:11.260 There's things I'm not going to talk about with a microphone on. 01:11.380 --> 01:12.600 Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I understand. 01:16.100 --> 01:17.920 I haven't been to **** in so long. 01:19.820 --> 01:22.320 Well, here you go. You're identifying where I live. 01:22.500 --> 01:23.220 Oh, you don't want me to? 01:23.300 --> 01:23.560 No. 01:23.560 --> 01:24.380 Okay, okay. 01:24.420 --> 01:24.680 I don't know. 01:24.740 --> 01:25.860 Don't worry, though. You won't use it. 01:27.220 --> 01:29.920 I don't want to make it easy for people to look at me. 01:30.000 --> 01:30.240 Okay. 01:34.360 --> 01:38.420 I mean, if you want me to stop recording right now to like set ground rules and stuff, totally. 01:38.560 --> 01:39.840 Yeah, why don't we talk about it? 01:40.500 --> 01:40.780 Okay. 01:40.780 --> 01:43.480 Hey, I'm, uh, I'm turning off recording now. 01:54.580 --> 01:55.900 I'm John Lee Anderson. 01:56.200 --> 01:57.100 And I'm Adam Entis. 01:57.500 --> 02:00.280 From Vice World News, this is Havana Syndrome. 02:00.280 --> 02:15.040 One, two, three, four. 02:17.040 --> 02:18.420 One, two, three, four. 02:18.420 --> 02:33.600 Episode 8. Deny everything. Admit nothing. 02:36.360 --> 02:39.880 So our first article on Avana Syndrome was published four years ago. 02:40.380 --> 02:43.160 Back then, we knew a little bit about how it started. 02:43.500 --> 02:48.020 But there's a lot we've learned since then, especially through our reporting for this podcast. 02:48.900 --> 02:53.060 We're going to lay it all out here, what we know as of this recording. 02:53.680 --> 02:57.500 There's even a few brand new things we can share with you in this final episode. 02:58.160 --> 02:59.740 But let's start at the beginning. 03:00.520 --> 03:08.800 Ladies and gentlemen, please rise for the national anthem of the Republic of Cuba. 03:08.800 --> 03:22.740 As we prepare to raise the United States flag here at our embassy in Havana, 03:24.080 --> 03:29.780 symbolizing the reestablishment of diplomatic relations after 54 years. 03:29.780 --> 03:31.780 So in July 2015... 03:32.500 --> 03:38.280 Please rise for the raising of the flag and the national anthem of the United States. 03:39.060 --> 03:43.960 The American embassy in Havana reopens, along with the CIA station there, 03:44.260 --> 03:48.420 which is freshly invested in trying to make advances in intelligence on the island. 03:48.420 --> 03:57.540 The following summer, in 2016, the CIA begins sending down a new team of officers to staff the station in Havana. 03:58.180 --> 04:04.120 One of the first new CIA officers is someone we have referenced previously, but did not talk to on tape. 04:04.580 --> 04:06.060 We're calling him Craig. 04:06.060 --> 04:10.200 All Craig will tell you is that he worked for the U.S. government, 04:10.600 --> 04:13.100 but I know from sources that he actually worked for the CIA. 04:14.220 --> 04:17.180 At first, Craig experiences no harassment at all. 04:18.020 --> 04:20.540 That changes when the new station chief arrives. 04:21.340 --> 04:23.640 Soon thereafter, Craig's cover is blown. 04:24.520 --> 04:28.300 He begins experiencing harsher harassment than he was trained to expect. 04:29.040 --> 04:34.100 Craig is gay, and twice he'd found that someone had written a gay slur on his car. 04:34.100 --> 04:38.300 Others on the island experience what they also perceive as harassment. 04:39.280 --> 04:44.900 Then, in late August 2016, Craig's in his living room when he hears a sound and feels pressure. 04:45.880 --> 04:49.820 He knows that a Cuban observation post is directly across from his house, 04:50.160 --> 04:52.920 and he assumes it could be a new form of harassment. 04:53.640 --> 04:56.740 But he isn't sure, and it keeps happening to him. 04:57.200 --> 04:58.980 He starts to feel really sick. 04:58.980 --> 05:06.480 Then, in October 2016, another CIA officer, Tony, arrives on the island. 05:07.620 --> 05:11.080 I was hit pretty hard and pretty heavy right off the bat. 05:11.080 --> 05:23.720 Then, in November 2016, Trump is elected. 05:23.720 --> 05:24.840 Thank you very much, everybody. 05:26.300 --> 05:30.980 Weeks later, Fidel Castro is dead. 05:30.980 --> 05:38.700 The future of U.S.-Cuban relations is in flux. 05:39.320 --> 05:39.720 Again. 05:41.500 --> 05:46.400 A little over a month later, on December 29, 2016. 05:46.940 --> 05:48.940 All of the dogs in the neighborhood started barking. 05:49.580 --> 05:51.460 Tony has his first incident. 05:51.800 --> 05:55.500 And then this loud sound just blasted into my bedroom. 05:55.500 --> 06:00.080 And then this severe, severe ear pain started. 06:01.020 --> 06:03.720 Tony goes to the embassy medical officer to get checked out. 06:04.060 --> 06:07.900 And he finds out that the medical officer had had a similar experience, 06:08.180 --> 06:10.760 as well as the embassy's regional security officer. 06:11.660 --> 06:15.320 Tony reports these incidents, along with the uptick in harassment, 06:15.680 --> 06:20.060 to Ambassador De Laurentiis, and writes up a cable for the CIA as well. 06:20.060 --> 06:28.120 Craig is off the island at the time, seeking medical treatment in the States. 06:28.720 --> 06:32.800 Doctors initially think he may have a stomach bug, but they soon rule that out. 06:33.360 --> 06:36.240 And shortly after New Year's, he returns to the island. 06:36.740 --> 06:38.260 His condition is worse than ever. 06:39.320 --> 06:42.440 One day, Tony and Craig are outside the embassy. 06:42.840 --> 06:47.020 They head to the secure skiff, where Tony divulges what happened to him. 06:47.020 --> 06:48.540 The sound, the pressure. 06:49.160 --> 06:53.700 And Craig tells him the same thing happened to him, too, back in August. 06:56.460 --> 07:03.540 By early February 2017, two CIA officers and the wife of a third have had similar experiences. 07:04.240 --> 07:07.560 For context, that's most of the CIA station in Havana. 07:07.560 --> 07:17.120 So, February 14th, Tony sends another cable, this time to the CIA's Office of Medical Services. 07:18.060 --> 07:25.740 Ten days later, February 24th, the wife of that third CIA officer reports another incident at her home. 07:26.520 --> 07:27.460 She calls her husband. 07:28.320 --> 07:31.020 He tells her to go outside and tell him what she sees. 07:31.680 --> 07:34.380 In front of her is a van that quickly drives away. 07:34.380 --> 07:41.620 I'm told that she sees it take off and park in front of a house down the street, a house that Cuban intelligence used for meetings. 07:43.300 --> 07:51.380 By the end of March, both Tony and Craig have gone to the University of Miami, where they have been diagnosed with traumatic brain injuries. 07:52.980 --> 07:57.120 Tony is told to stay in the States, but Craig is sent back to the island. 07:57.120 --> 08:02.820 I'm told Craig's marching orders were to get his ass back to Cuba and take care of business. 08:03.480 --> 08:06.800 He was explicitly told to keep his mouth shut about all of it. 08:07.820 --> 08:11.520 When he gets back, he experiences yet another incident at his home. 08:12.220 --> 08:14.600 His embassy colleagues see that something is wrong. 08:15.200 --> 08:19.040 They've seen that people are leaving the island under mysterious circumstances. 08:19.840 --> 08:21.760 Rumors are flying about what is happening. 08:22.280 --> 08:24.320 Havana is considered a family post. 08:24.720 --> 08:26.340 People are worried about their kids. 08:26.340 --> 08:31.160 And so one day, Craig confides in some of his State Department colleagues. 08:31.720 --> 08:33.680 That's when they learn what's going on. 08:34.080 --> 08:35.740 And the rumor mill continues. 08:40.420 --> 08:46.020 Craig is only on the island for about a week before being sent back to Miami for more testing and treatment. 08:47.020 --> 08:53.060 That same month, the CIA sent an undercover officer down to Havana to check on the skiff at the embassy. 08:53.060 --> 08:59.980 She's down there for a couple of days, and when she gets back to Langley, she reports feeling very sick. 09:01.340 --> 09:02.460 Also in March... 09:02.460 --> 09:08.320 Right in the midst of that pot washing is when I felt it. 09:08.440 --> 09:10.400 Tina has the incident in her kitchen. 09:10.400 --> 09:17.480 The sensation that I felt was an overwhelming sense of inexplicable anxiety. 09:17.480 --> 09:23.780 Later that month, the CIA sends an agency doctor down to Havana. 09:23.780 --> 09:30.720 The night he lands on the island, he too reports an incident in his hotel room at the Capri. 09:30.720 --> 09:39.180 Then again in August, a high-ranking CIA analyst reports an incident, this time at the Nacional Hotel. 09:39.180 --> 09:50.780 So these were, my understanding is that it has only affected State Department... 09:50.780 --> 09:54.880 On August 9th, 2017, Havana Syndrome goes public. 09:55.000 --> 09:56.440 We take this very seriously. 09:56.700 --> 09:57.480 What is this? 09:57.880 --> 09:58.700 This incident. 09:59.080 --> 09:59.500 This incident. 09:59.940 --> 10:01.440 And that's what we're calling it. 10:01.500 --> 10:03.180 We don't know exactly what... 10:03.180 --> 10:06.820 So this is 2016, and you don't know what this incident is? 10:06.820 --> 10:16.140 At the end of September, the U.S. brings half its embassy staff home. 10:16.800 --> 10:20.300 The next month, it closes the CIA station indefinitely. 10:21.040 --> 10:25.460 For a brief period of time, it seems like American spies and diplomats are safe. 10:26.060 --> 10:26.920 They think it's over. 10:27.740 --> 10:30.500 But then, in December 2017... 10:30.500 --> 10:34.540 I'd been in Iraq, I'd been in Afghanistan, certainly been under some high-pressure situations. 10:34.540 --> 10:40.520 Another high-ranking CIA officer is seemingly injured, not in Havana, but in Moscow. 10:40.800 --> 10:44.720 But ultimately, this was the most terrifying experience of my life because I lost control. 10:45.060 --> 10:49.200 Similar incidents are reported at the U.S. Consulate in Guangzhou, China. 10:49.680 --> 10:52.240 By our count, there are over a dozen cases. 10:52.980 --> 10:57.160 You need to evacuate your family from that apartment right now. 10:57.160 --> 11:03.240 The following spring, May 2019, during President Trump's state visit to England, 11:03.660 --> 11:07.660 two White House staffers report incidents at the Park Lane Continental in London. 11:08.560 --> 11:12.360 You're a clear line of sight from the sidewalk out front. 11:12.480 --> 11:17.600 Yes, you could sit here in a van and do whatever you were going to do to zap somebody up front. 11:17.600 --> 11:26.040 White House national security officials begin encouraging government agencies to cast a wide net, 11:26.400 --> 11:30.380 asking staff around the world to report any and all unexplained illnesses. 11:31.020 --> 11:34.440 They want to catch anything that could be connected to Havana syndrome. 11:35.100 --> 11:39.440 And then, that same fall in November 2020... 11:39.440 --> 11:42.660 Yeah, it's me. Something's wrong with me. 11:42.660 --> 11:48.780 A national security official, who we're calling John, reports an incident right outside the White House. 11:49.300 --> 11:58.540 I have had a really hard time of speaking, and I'm really just learning at it. 11:59.560 --> 12:01.260 From there, things just spiral. 12:01.260 --> 12:10.220 We are vigorously investigating reports of possible unexplained health incidents among U.S. Embassy Vienna community. 12:12.220 --> 12:18.380 Hundreds of additional mysterious illnesses are being reported as potentially being Havana syndrome. 12:19.200 --> 12:24.640 The numbers keep rising in part because the agencies have lowered the bar for suspected cases. 12:25.300 --> 12:28.320 A senior official at the time told me over a beer, 12:28.320 --> 12:32.500 the only thing we know for sure about the number is that we don't know the number. 12:33.500 --> 12:35.420 And that still seems to be the case. 12:37.280 --> 12:43.000 German police are investigating cases of the mysterious Havana syndrome at the U.S. Embassy in Berlin. 12:43.480 --> 12:47.060 CIA officers suffered from Havana syndrome during India trips. 12:47.480 --> 12:53.620 A recent possible incident interrupted Vice President Kamala Harris' trip from Singapore to Vietnam. 12:58.320 --> 13:06.760 That's what we've told you so far. 13:07.540 --> 13:10.940 Still, there was this key part of the story that I was missing. 13:11.540 --> 13:16.900 It had to do with a specific time period, in the eight months after Tony reports his incidents, 13:17.220 --> 13:19.400 but before Havana syndrome becomes public. 13:19.400 --> 13:25.620 If this was mostly affecting the CIA, what was the agency doing behind the scenes during this period? 13:26.200 --> 13:29.100 And could they have done more to solve this and help their people? 13:30.760 --> 13:35.180 I finally found someone who could shed light on what was really going on. 13:36.900 --> 13:38.340 How long have you been living here? 13:38.340 --> 13:46.360 There's things I'm not going to talk about with the microphone on. 13:46.480 --> 13:46.980 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 13:47.160 --> 13:47.660 No, I understand. 13:49.200 --> 13:53.100 This is Dr. Andrew, which is a pseudonym to protect his privacy. 13:54.140 --> 13:56.900 I don't want to make it easy for people to look at me. 13:56.900 --> 13:57.220 Okay. 13:57.680 --> 14:01.340 I mean, if you want me to stop recording right now to, like, set ground rules and stuff, totally. 14:01.440 --> 14:02.760 Yeah, why don't we talk about it? 14:02.760 --> 14:09.200 I'd known of Dr. Andrew for some time. 14:09.940 --> 14:14.740 He's the doctor who reported that incident at the Capri Hotel in late April 2017. 14:15.600 --> 14:19.380 When we published our first piece, that's literally all I knew. 14:20.120 --> 14:23.980 But it turns out that the reason Dr. Andrew was in Havana that night 14:23.980 --> 14:28.160 was because he was investigating Havana syndrome on behalf of the CIA. 14:28.160 --> 14:35.160 So before joining the CIA, he'd had years of experience investigating medical mysteries 14:35.160 --> 14:36.780 on behalf of the U.S. government. 14:37.560 --> 14:42.600 He'd also spent over 20 years consulting in academia and in the public health sphere. 14:43.520 --> 14:46.540 By February 2017, Tony is really suffering. 14:47.080 --> 14:51.260 And he is advised by a colleague to send a cable to the CIA's medical office 14:51.260 --> 14:53.540 detailing what's going on in Havana. 14:53.540 --> 15:01.820 It was a strange communique, where it came from, some of the things about it. 15:02.480 --> 15:06.420 One of the people who receives that cable is Dr. Andrew. 15:07.420 --> 15:09.880 He also hears the sound Tony recorded. 15:10.500 --> 15:11.700 I don't know what it was. 15:11.740 --> 15:12.740 It was some je ne sais quoi. 15:12.880 --> 15:16.300 You just look at it and you say, boy, this is disturbing. 15:17.080 --> 15:20.600 So I decided to go ahead and pursue it. 15:20.600 --> 15:26.720 That's when he's sent down to the Capri Hotel in late April 2017. 15:27.280 --> 15:31.040 I was awakened with severe right ear pain. 15:32.040 --> 15:33.240 I sat up in bed. 15:33.920 --> 15:35.700 My first thought was, I've got to be dreaming. 15:36.380 --> 15:40.540 My second thought was, is this really happening? 15:40.960 --> 15:44.940 The guy investigating the thing appeared to get hit by the thing. 15:44.940 --> 15:52.080 And around then, I started to hear the sound that I had heard on the audio tapes before, 15:52.240 --> 15:54.180 a sort of grinding or mosquito sound. 15:55.600 --> 16:01.780 Later that morning, during a meeting at the embassy, he realizes just how debilitated he is. 16:02.100 --> 16:04.800 And my mind is just all over the place. 16:04.860 --> 16:05.880 I'm having so much trouble. 16:06.520 --> 16:09.340 I remember saying to myself, Andrew, listen to him. 16:09.540 --> 16:10.600 He's talking to you. 16:10.760 --> 16:12.500 He's about to ask you a question. 16:12.500 --> 16:13.900 Come on, man. 16:14.000 --> 16:15.040 Get it together here. 16:15.900 --> 16:20.420 So when Dr. Andrew returns to the States, he gets checked out at the University of Miami, 16:20.780 --> 16:22.920 the same place Tony and Craig were sent. 16:23.320 --> 16:26.320 And he is diagnosed with a vestibular injury. 16:27.420 --> 16:31.860 Dr. Andrew is determined to get to the bottom of this, but his colleagues are more skeptical. 16:32.440 --> 16:39.240 I had colleagues who looked at the cable and immediately said, oh, this is crazy. 16:39.240 --> 16:42.160 They're just acting like a bunch of little girls. 16:42.340 --> 16:43.560 They need to man up. 16:43.800 --> 16:44.840 This is just stress. 16:45.440 --> 16:49.000 And they need to live with it and move on. 16:50.060 --> 16:54.620 And I said, well, what about the brain injury or brain problems, whatever? 16:55.200 --> 16:57.660 They said, no, no, we're not going to go there. 16:57.820 --> 16:59.140 I said, what are you talking about? 16:59.640 --> 17:01.720 I said, that's the 600-pound gorilla in the corner. 17:01.820 --> 17:02.880 That's what everyone's worried about. 17:02.880 --> 17:05.260 Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant. 17:05.440 --> 17:08.500 If you don't address it, you're just ignoring it. 17:09.940 --> 17:15.460 Dr. Andrew says that instead of relying on his expertise, his colleagues at CIA were looking 17:15.460 --> 17:21.180 for outside experts and doctors who would confirm what they believed or wanted to believe, 17:21.700 --> 17:23.720 that Havana syndrome wasn't real. 17:24.140 --> 17:27.860 Everywhere that they went and didn't get the message they wanted, the doctor shopped. 17:28.000 --> 17:28.620 They went elsewhere. 17:28.620 --> 17:32.740 At the time, there are three main camps within the CIA. 17:33.340 --> 17:37.660 Those who believe the patients, those who are skeptical, and those who are agnostic. 17:38.300 --> 17:43.840 In fact, I'm told that the deputy CIA director, Gina Haspel, who would take over as director, 17:44.340 --> 17:45.780 is in the agnostic camp. 17:46.460 --> 17:52.740 And as months pass, the CIA's inability to get intelligence on what happened fuels skepticism 17:52.740 --> 17:53.380 in the building. 17:53.700 --> 17:57.420 They were already starting ad hominem attacks against people. 17:57.420 --> 17:59.300 So, this one's crazy. 17:59.500 --> 18:01.020 This one's, you know, after money. 18:01.200 --> 18:02.020 I was malingering. 18:02.580 --> 18:07.080 All these sorts of things were being alleged about the people in the group that was sick. 18:07.840 --> 18:12.800 What Dr. Andrew is suggesting here is that some at the CIA were pushing back at the victims' 18:12.980 --> 18:14.760 claims that they'd been injured in Havana. 18:15.280 --> 18:19.900 We asked the CIA about these claims to try to corroborate them, but they declined to comment. 18:19.900 --> 18:26.440 In the fall of 2017, the person in charge of Dr. Andrew's office suggests he should retire, 18:27.000 --> 18:29.500 and he ultimately leaves in August of 2020. 18:29.500 --> 18:38.000 I'm kind of mystified by why the same government that would have allowed you and funded you, 18:38.360 --> 18:45.020 and then in the face of this cluster of, you know, very serious health episodes that we 18:45.020 --> 18:51.900 now call Havana syndrome, why they would choose to sideline, ignore it, and even denigrate 18:51.900 --> 18:53.820 the record of some of you. 18:53.820 --> 19:02.040 One of the sayings in the intelligence community is deny everything, admit nothing, and make 19:02.040 --> 19:03.080 counter-accusations. 19:03.600 --> 19:05.260 So, the facts were against them. 19:05.900 --> 19:06.880 Everything was against them. 19:06.940 --> 19:11.820 So, they had to make ad hominem attacks to discredit the doctors, the patients, and everyone. 19:11.820 --> 19:18.840 It's starting to feel to Dr. Andrew like the CIA is doing all it can to sweep this under 19:18.840 --> 19:22.420 the rug, or worse, actively cover it up. 19:26.420 --> 19:31.560 Meanwhile, Tony and Craig are back at work in the States, still trying to recover, and 19:31.560 --> 19:32.940 they feel like they're in limbo. 19:33.360 --> 19:36.480 In those early days, people weren't talking to each other. 19:36.480 --> 19:38.960 The CIA has very little information. 19:39.720 --> 19:44.640 Still, in the months following what happened to Tony, he says they kept sending more people 19:44.640 --> 19:45.020 down. 19:45.720 --> 19:50.720 People that got sent in to replace me and my colleagues weren't informed of why we were 19:50.720 --> 19:51.300 off the island. 19:51.520 --> 19:55.460 They were just told, you have to go in and fill in this position, which is standard, right? 19:55.780 --> 19:58.240 Hey, we need someone to go do X, Y, Z jobs. 19:58.780 --> 19:59.840 You're the flyaway. 20:00.120 --> 20:00.620 Go fill in. 20:00.880 --> 20:03.780 But they come out, and they're injured with the same patterns. 20:03.840 --> 20:04.800 But they haven't talked to us. 20:04.880 --> 20:06.360 They don't know why they were filling in. 20:07.300 --> 20:09.380 You know, we were getting taken out like lemmings down there. 20:09.520 --> 20:10.340 It was like fish in a barrel. 20:10.440 --> 20:12.880 Every time we sent someone down there, they were coming back injured. 20:13.760 --> 20:18.120 Pretty soon, the U.S. government stopped sending suspected of anti-syndrome patients 20:18.120 --> 20:22.160 to the doctor in Miami who gave the traumatic brain injury diagnosis. 20:23.040 --> 20:27.820 My understanding is that those officials were worried that the diagnosis would freak people 20:27.820 --> 20:28.180 out. 20:28.180 --> 20:31.480 You know, it was sent in to the various agencies and the state. 20:32.080 --> 20:37.460 And then efforts were made to call Miami and have TBI removed from my records. 20:37.460 --> 20:42.280 Again, the CIA declined to comment on this. 20:42.860 --> 20:47.780 But according to Tony, someone was trying to doctor his medical records. 20:47.920 --> 20:49.340 They thought it was scary. 20:49.560 --> 20:51.080 It was too severe of an issue. 20:51.080 --> 20:57.180 And efforts were made to have that removed from my medical records because they didn't want 20:57.180 --> 20:58.400 it to be as severe as it was. 20:58.900 --> 21:02.260 Tony and Craig are begging their bosses to give them medical care. 21:02.260 --> 21:08.920 At one point, I'm told that the CIA sends one of the patients to a neurologist, and he explains 21:08.920 --> 21:10.920 to the doctor what happened to him in Havana. 21:11.240 --> 21:17.380 But the doctor barely examines him, told him he needs to see a psychiatrist, and that he's 21:17.380 --> 21:18.040 fucking nuts. 21:18.460 --> 21:19.320 This is impossible. 21:21.420 --> 21:27.220 The way they're treated leaves both Tony and Craig feeling frustrated, marginalized, like 21:27.220 --> 21:27.980 pariahs. 21:27.980 --> 21:34.460 It fuels Tony's hopelessness, a hopelessness that would eventually lead him to consider 21:34.460 --> 21:35.280 killing himself. 21:38.740 --> 21:42.580 Then in August 2017, Tony goes on medical leave. 21:42.840 --> 21:46.280 I remember I wrote an email to as many senior folks as I could find. 21:47.200 --> 21:53.180 Seventh floor, my front office, to the medical folks, you name it, and all the other patients. 21:53.760 --> 21:56.200 And I said, I'm leaving next Wednesday. 21:56.800 --> 21:57.600 You're not helping. 21:57.740 --> 21:58.460 We've asked for it. 21:58.900 --> 22:00.200 If you need me, you know how to find me. 22:00.640 --> 22:01.620 You have five days. 22:01.880 --> 22:02.580 Feel free to reach out. 22:07.980 --> 22:10.680 The station closes, then the embassy begins to draw down. 22:10.840 --> 22:16.540 At some point around that time, I'm assuming, somebody decides that the people who are sick 22:16.540 --> 22:18.100 should be given an award. 22:18.980 --> 22:19.500 Right? 22:19.740 --> 22:20.620 That's what I was thinking. 22:21.380 --> 22:22.380 After all that. 22:22.380 --> 22:25.020 So let me read this to you. 22:25.400 --> 22:29.680 It's a citation with the seal of the Central Intelligence Agency at the top. 22:29.940 --> 22:32.520 It's inscribed to Tony with his real name. 22:33.140 --> 22:36.700 It says he's being awarded the Exceptional Service Medal. 22:36.700 --> 22:44.700 In recognition of his selfless service, despite being targeted by unknown forces and subjected 22:44.700 --> 22:47.760 to unprecedented damaging attacks. 22:48.420 --> 22:54.420 Despite the months of attacks and ongoing harassment, he remained in his assignment. 22:55.140 --> 23:02.100 So this is the CIA saying in black and white that something happened to Tony and his colleagues 23:02.100 --> 23:05.020 and that they suffered attacks in Havana. 23:07.300 --> 23:10.120 The timing here is kind of remarkable. 23:10.700 --> 23:16.040 It's January 2018, four months after Tony has gone on medical leave. 23:16.920 --> 23:21.440 Most CIA officers, when they find out they are getting an award, are ecstatic. 23:21.800 --> 23:24.100 But Tony and the others are really conflicted. 23:25.040 --> 23:31.180 Because they feel like the CIA leadership dragged its feet, withheld support, didn't really believe them. 23:31.180 --> 23:36.260 And now they find out that the CIA director, Mike Pompeo, is going to give them this honor. 23:37.700 --> 23:39.140 I debated to go in or not. 23:39.660 --> 23:41.740 I debated kind of mailing in a fuck you letter. 23:42.320 --> 23:45.540 And he was there with his other colleagues who've been hit, and you should have seen their faces. 23:46.000 --> 23:47.880 That's Tony's brother sitting next to him. 23:48.060 --> 23:48.700 You mean upset? 23:49.500 --> 23:50.900 Up there getting the award. 23:51.580 --> 23:51.900 Awards. 23:52.080 --> 23:53.740 They're not good awards, like there's some kind of hero. 23:54.100 --> 23:57.180 So Pompeo's up there, and all these people don't want to be there. 23:57.900 --> 23:58.640 I see what you mean. 23:58.700 --> 24:00.480 You mean the people who were getting the award didn't want to be there? 24:00.480 --> 24:06.180 Tony and some of the other patients had been having discreet meetings with members of Congress 24:06.180 --> 24:10.940 and their staff, telling them about Havana Syndrome and what's been going on behind the 24:10.940 --> 24:11.860 scenes at the CIA. 24:12.740 --> 24:15.420 They say the goal wasn't to humiliate the agency. 24:15.860 --> 24:18.660 It was simply to get the agency to try to help their people. 24:19.720 --> 24:25.340 But within the CIA, the closed-door meetings with members of Congress were an unnerving development. 24:25.340 --> 24:28.520 Let's not forget that there is some political history here. 24:29.100 --> 24:33.800 Mike Pompeo was one of the most outspoken critics after the embassy attack in Benghazi, Libya. 24:34.200 --> 24:38.300 He alleged that the Obama administration didn't do enough to protect our people there. 24:38.540 --> 24:41.260 So fast forward to this award ceremony. 24:41.840 --> 24:47.460 In some of the patients' minds, the whole thing is about damage control and protecting the leadership. 24:47.460 --> 24:51.520 I asked the CIA about it, but they wouldn't comment on the record. 24:52.260 --> 24:55.320 And former CIA director Mike Pompeo didn't get back to us. 24:55.320 --> 24:59.020 There's one side of you that's going, holy shit, this is a really big deal. 24:59.120 --> 25:00.360 Like, we're finally being recognized. 25:00.940 --> 25:03.920 But on the other side of it, you're going, now? 25:04.540 --> 25:05.900 You could have done this at any point. 25:05.940 --> 25:07.300 You could have helped us at any point. 25:07.660 --> 25:09.020 But now we're really fucked. 25:09.160 --> 25:11.140 Now's the time that you want to be like, oh, here you go. 25:11.620 --> 25:12.400 Thanks for everything. 25:13.980 --> 25:16.220 Frankly, this is Washington at its worst. 25:16.960 --> 25:18.040 Institutional ass covering. 25:18.040 --> 25:26.880 Makes you wonder, why would the CIA initially ignore or dispute allegations, but then, within 25:26.880 --> 25:32.460 a span of just a few months, turn around and give Tony, the doctor, and others an award? 25:33.500 --> 25:34.080 Hey, Adam. 25:34.400 --> 25:35.080 John Lee here. 25:35.820 --> 25:36.200 Hey, brother. 25:36.280 --> 25:36.660 How are you? 25:36.900 --> 25:40.380 I've actually been talking to someone who has helped me gain some clarity on this. 25:40.380 --> 25:44.900 He worked in Havana at the embassy in a very senior position. 25:44.900 --> 25:52.640 And it turns out that he was the hands-on guy investigating and overseeing the Havana syndrome 25:52.640 --> 25:53.480 problem. 25:53.940 --> 25:58.740 He told me something that changes everything about the way I see the Havana syndrome. 25:59.380 --> 26:00.560 This is a quote from him. 26:00.600 --> 26:05.720 He says, we heard the Cubans may have been worried because so many contacts have been made 26:05.720 --> 26:06.340 around the world. 26:06.660 --> 26:08.860 This could have pissed off the Cubans. 26:12.780 --> 26:14.040 That's after the break. 26:14.900 --> 26:32.240 We all have moments where we could have done better, like cutting your own hair. 26:32.580 --> 26:33.020 Yikes. 26:33.340 --> 26:35.740 Or forgetting sunscreen so now you look like a tomato. 26:36.240 --> 26:36.520 Ouch. 26:36.980 --> 26:37.720 Could have done better. 26:38.200 --> 26:39.640 Same goes for where you invest. 26:40.100 --> 26:41.940 Level up and invest smarter with Schwab. 26:41.940 --> 26:45.380 Get market insights, education, and human help when you need it. 26:45.620 --> 26:47.520 Learn more at schwab.com. 26:47.940 --> 26:51.200 Summer's here, and you can now get almost anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. 26:51.380 --> 26:52.300 What do we mean by 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--> 28:24.560 And, you know, I've seen other people come back from various places with other injuries doing their jobs, and they're treated like heroes. 28:24.560 --> 28:27.140 And I got treated like, you know, I'd done something wrong. 28:30.040 --> 28:31.660 Tony is unable to work. 28:31.940 --> 28:33.180 He's medically disabled. 28:33.840 --> 28:38.480 He says he's seen over 100 doctors, but none of them have really fixed him. 28:39.320 --> 28:42.840 His health problems are similar to many victims that I've spoken with. 28:42.840 --> 28:48.160 They also feel ignored, sidelined by their own government, and they're angry about it. 28:49.380 --> 28:58.380 Despite his condition, Tony has been able to put his skills to use, organizing dozens of his former colleagues to demand support from the government. 28:59.260 --> 29:04.500 Last fall, President Biden signed the Havana Act into law, which means some of them will get compensation. 29:05.220 --> 29:05.960 Humor helps. 29:05.960 --> 29:08.120 Unfortunately, we all have a wonderful sense of humor. 29:08.600 --> 29:11.740 Tina is feeling a little better, still receiving treatment. 29:12.480 --> 29:19.360 But the job she does today is a far cry from the senior-level Foreign Service assignments she was on five years ago. 29:19.720 --> 29:21.700 It's frustrating. 29:22.320 --> 29:27.560 I mean, I triage emails for two hours a day, every day. 29:27.740 --> 29:28.920 And that's my only job. 29:28.920 --> 29:33.760 My supervisor is a first- or second-tour officer. 29:34.620 --> 29:38.360 Just to clarify, that's usually someone at the beginning of their career. 29:38.740 --> 29:43.820 It's all very easy, which is good. 29:44.040 --> 29:47.260 And even then, I don't do a very good job with it sometimes. 29:48.000 --> 29:51.800 How does it feel for you, seeing that people are still getting sick from this? 29:52.000 --> 29:56.440 How does it feel, given your feelings towards the diplomatic corps? 29:57.400 --> 29:58.280 It's heartbreaking. 29:59.300 --> 30:03.420 I wouldn't wish this on anyone, but certainly not on my colleagues. 30:03.620 --> 30:06.220 I mean, these are just people like me. 30:06.720 --> 30:07.960 They're in it because they love it. 30:08.000 --> 30:08.520 It's a calling. 30:08.860 --> 30:14.740 So it's gotten hard, really hard, to see that we haven't figured it out yet. 30:16.520 --> 30:21.120 I really want us to figure it out so that nobody else gets hurt. 30:23.560 --> 30:24.000 Sorry. 30:24.380 --> 30:25.640 No, I'm going to apologize. 30:25.640 --> 30:27.020 Take as much time as you need. 30:28.920 --> 30:38.360 The CIA and the State Department are understandably concerned that they'll have trouble convincing 30:38.360 --> 30:44.300 employees to take overseas jobs, because they still don't know what's behind these health 30:44.300 --> 30:44.800 incidents. 30:49.000 --> 30:49.720 Yeah. 30:50.680 --> 30:51.600 I saw my trash. 30:52.100 --> 30:52.440 Momentarily. 30:52.600 --> 30:53.960 Please continue to hold. 30:53.960 --> 31:01.400 Thank you for standing by and welcome to the NSC background call on Cuba. 31:01.800 --> 31:02.600 Please go ahead. 31:03.340 --> 31:03.800 Hello, everyone. 31:03.920 --> 31:05.800 Thank you so much for calling in this evening. 31:05.920 --> 31:06.460 I know it's late. 31:06.460 --> 31:11.860 We're at the vice office when we get an email saying that the National Security Council is 31:11.860 --> 31:14.080 about to hold a conference call about Cuba. 31:14.440 --> 31:18.160 So we jump on the call with a bunch of other reporters to hear the news. 31:18.420 --> 31:19.180 Good afternoon, everybody. 31:19.340 --> 31:20.820 And thanks again for jumping on the line. 31:22.500 --> 31:27.240 Today, the United States announced a series of measures to increase support for the Cuban 31:27.240 --> 31:30.680 people and safeguard our national security interests. 31:30.680 --> 31:36.040 The U.S. Embassy in Havana is about to staff up again, albeit gradually. 31:36.180 --> 31:36.500 Go ahead. 31:37.040 --> 31:39.340 Yeah, thanks very much for doing this. 31:40.040 --> 31:45.580 In 2017, the Trump administration scaled back our presence in Havana. 31:45.780 --> 31:48.940 And as you just said, we're going to be increasing our presence. 31:49.380 --> 31:53.860 I asked if reopening the embassy meant that they had gotten to the bottom of Havana syndrome. 31:53.860 --> 31:56.680 But I got the same old non-answer. 31:57.100 --> 32:02.140 We are working closely with all the relevant bureaus in the Department of State and across 32:02.140 --> 32:09.720 the interagency as well on plans to investigate and get to the bottom of the anomalous health 32:09.720 --> 32:10.040 incident. 32:10.400 --> 32:13.520 The State Department is deliberately not using the words Havana syndrome. 32:14.160 --> 32:17.360 Instead, they're using the term anomalous health incidents. 32:18.180 --> 32:23.760 Essentially, what they're saying is, we don't know what happened or who did this, but we're 32:23.760 --> 32:24.980 going back in anyways. 32:25.740 --> 32:31.700 And in fact, in January, the U.S. reopened visa and consular services at the embassy in Havana. 32:32.180 --> 32:37.040 At this moment, we do not have a conclusion as to the attribution. 32:37.420 --> 32:39.060 We pulled out without knowing what happened. 32:39.420 --> 32:42.160 And apparently, we're going back in without knowing what happened. 32:46.060 --> 32:51.380 When I hear this, my first thought is that the CIA station is either back up and running 32:51.380 --> 32:52.460 or is about to be. 32:52.460 --> 32:55.940 But I can see why they might feel pressured to return. 32:56.740 --> 33:01.460 As part of its mission, it makes sense that the CIA would want to be in a position to acquire 33:01.460 --> 33:02.880 intel again in Cuba. 33:03.420 --> 33:06.780 And for that matter, to be able to compete with the Russians there. 33:07.440 --> 33:10.220 I was in D.C. recently meeting with a few sources. 33:10.800 --> 33:14.340 And I met with one who was very high up in the chain at the embassy in Havana. 33:14.880 --> 33:19.500 He was talking a lot about the CIA's activities on the island and how they were trying to up their 33:19.500 --> 33:21.740 game and make inroads with new sources. 33:22.660 --> 33:24.000 That rang a bell for me. 33:24.400 --> 33:29.160 A lot of folks were skeptical that the Cubans were ever really going to cooperate with the United States, 33:29.240 --> 33:30.800 that they were not going to change their stripes. 33:31.280 --> 33:33.520 I was reminded of something we were told earlier. 33:33.780 --> 33:37.400 The CIA wants to get close to a lot of our adversaries around the globe. 33:37.400 --> 33:40.260 Former CIA Director John Brennan. 33:40.920 --> 33:45.940 If you remember, he was unusually candid about how the CIA planned to operate in Cuba. 33:46.180 --> 33:54.200 Because once you have that up-close and personal access, it affords you new opportunities as far as your intelligence objectives are concerned. 33:54.680 --> 34:01.640 Meaning, the opening of relations between the U.S. and Cuba could help the Americans cultivate and recruit more spies. 34:01.640 --> 34:05.300 So I think that certainly was a prevailing view within Langley. 34:05.940 --> 34:12.200 And an intelligence officer's objective is try to gain as much insight as they can into what's happening in other countries. 34:14.480 --> 34:18.240 Higher-ups wanted their officers in Cuba to step up their spying. 34:18.720 --> 34:22.040 They wanted to keep an eye on what the Russians and the Chinese were up to. 34:22.380 --> 34:24.400 And that meant upping operations in Cuba. 34:25.060 --> 34:27.500 That may very well have freaked the Cubans out. 34:27.880 --> 34:29.660 And perhaps pissed them off. 34:31.640 --> 34:50.280 Based on our reporting over the past four years, this is the story that makes the most sense to me. 34:51.040 --> 34:54.360 Someone within the Cuban government had to have been behind it. 34:54.620 --> 34:55.740 But with some help. 34:56.360 --> 34:59.840 And perhaps with approval from a very senior figure. 34:59.840 --> 35:02.240 I'm talking Fidel Castro. 35:03.060 --> 35:07.480 He'd been out of the government for some time, but retained huge symbolic authority. 35:07.880 --> 35:11.120 And been vocal about wanting to slow down the detente with the Americans. 35:12.120 --> 35:15.720 Remember, a lot of this harassment began just before he passed away. 35:16.280 --> 35:20.940 I'm told that a high-up official within Cuban intelligence, a close ally of Fidel's, 35:20.940 --> 35:27.360 was identified by embassy officials as the likeliest person to have organized the attacks behind the Havana Syndrome. 35:28.160 --> 35:32.240 He's the person with the likeliest motive, given their understanding of his position. 35:32.920 --> 35:35.960 That said, he would not have the technological capability. 35:35.960 --> 35:39.320 But my source says the embassy knew who would. 35:40.360 --> 35:41.260 The Russians. 35:42.580 --> 35:49.060 We know that generally speaking, Vladimir Putin has been looking for and finding ways to go after the U.S. for over a decade. 35:49.060 --> 35:54.540 But apparently, when the U.S. and Cuba restored relations, this spooked Russia. 35:55.700 --> 36:01.080 And while we have pointed out that Russia had retained some influence on the island since the end of the Cold War, 36:01.600 --> 36:07.320 there's evidence to suggest that it had also been increasing its intelligence presence on the island. 36:07.320 --> 36:14.380 And of course, as we've learned, Russia's been toying with microwave technology as weapons for years. 36:15.340 --> 36:19.740 So, the CIA goes into Cuba guns blazing, which freaks out the Cubans. 36:20.260 --> 36:23.160 They respond aggressively, and with help from the Russians, 36:23.680 --> 36:28.380 unleash a difficult-to-trace weapon on CIA officers to get them to back off. 36:29.200 --> 36:35.000 In fact, my State Department source says that out of all of the theories his team studied at the embassy, 36:35.000 --> 36:37.800 this was the only hypothesis going. 36:38.560 --> 36:42.560 To be clear, Russia and Cuba have denied involvement with these incidents. 36:43.180 --> 36:48.480 And we asked the Russian embassy about whether the country has been upping its intelligence presence on the island, 36:48.760 --> 36:50.160 but they didn't get back to us. 36:51.500 --> 36:56.680 That said, I also recently found out about the CIA's tradecraft during this time, 36:57.140 --> 37:02.560 which provides some critical context and shows how vulnerable its officers were. 37:02.560 --> 37:07.400 Remember, Havana had been considered a backwater CIA station. 37:08.220 --> 37:13.040 Things change, of course, in the summer of 2016 when they're told to step things up. 37:13.540 --> 37:18.580 But some of the important secret protocols spies use to stay hidden are extremely lax. 37:19.200 --> 37:23.720 For example, the State Department holds diplomatic slots for CIA officers. 37:24.300 --> 37:25.180 They're cover jobs. 37:25.940 --> 37:28.280 Those slots are supposed to be rotated frequently 37:28.280 --> 37:32.340 to make it harder for the Cubans to figure out who the spies really are. 37:33.140 --> 37:35.660 But in Havana, the slots weren't rotated. 37:36.180 --> 37:41.680 So when Tony arrives in 2016, he's put in the same position that his predecessor was in. 37:42.160 --> 37:45.760 When Tony learns this, he assumes his cover is blown. 37:46.560 --> 37:50.260 I heard a couple of good examples of how lax the tradecraft was in Cuba. 37:50.740 --> 37:53.500 The Cubans know who the station chief is. 37:53.500 --> 38:00.680 So phone calls between him and undercover officers are supposed to go through an intermediary 38:00.680 --> 38:04.300 to keep the undercover officers' identities hidden. 38:04.920 --> 38:08.980 At least one call that I know of didn't go through that intermediary. 38:09.540 --> 38:13.480 I'm pretty sure this sloppiness exposed these officers. 38:14.300 --> 38:19.880 And if Havana syndrome was part of a campaign to blunt the CIA's operations on the island, 38:20.380 --> 38:22.040 well, it certainly was effective. 38:22.040 --> 38:26.460 As for the cases that happened after Havana, 38:26.640 --> 38:30.840 well, if Russia had the technology and it had worked in Havana, 38:31.300 --> 38:32.800 why not take it on the road? 38:33.180 --> 38:36.040 Especially if your goal in life is to fuck with the U.S. 38:36.600 --> 38:40.980 At that point, it's not even about going after specific CIA officers. 38:41.660 --> 38:44.860 It's about messing with our heads anywhere they can. 38:44.860 --> 38:55.100 I hear what you're saying, John Lee, but I really think we need to stick with the facts. 38:55.700 --> 38:57.100 And there are just not that many of them. 38:58.040 --> 38:58.900 What do we know? 38:59.420 --> 39:01.480 We know we have a bunch of people who say they've been hurt, 39:01.860 --> 39:05.420 but the CIA hasn't been able to find any communications intercepts 39:05.420 --> 39:08.460 in which officials in Russia or Cuba talk about what they did. 39:08.460 --> 39:13.180 And I want to be honest, I think it's very strange that they haven't been able 39:13.180 --> 39:14.460 to collect anything like that. 39:15.720 --> 39:21.160 I think the events in Ukraine raise further doubts about assumptions 39:21.160 --> 39:23.160 that the Russians can be so disciplined. 39:23.840 --> 39:27.100 Look at the way the Russians have been operating in Ukraine. 39:27.700 --> 39:28.620 They're so sloppy. 39:29.240 --> 39:33.020 And yet we're supposed to believe that they were able to disguise these activities 39:33.020 --> 39:37.040 for so long against our CIA personnel around the world. 39:38.940 --> 39:43.380 The CIA also told us that they are continuing to rigorously investigate 39:43.380 --> 39:44.960 the causes of the incidents. 39:45.560 --> 39:47.620 But they added that, quote, 39:48.280 --> 39:53.320 we have not so far developed credible intelligence linking a foreign state actor 39:53.320 --> 39:55.260 or weapon to any incident. 39:55.260 --> 40:04.140 The CIA's investigation into Havana syndrome hasn't stopped. 40:04.900 --> 40:08.380 Just a few months ago, I spoke to a source with deep knowledge 40:08.380 --> 40:11.040 of what the CIA has been able to turn up. 40:11.520 --> 40:14.320 And a couple of things they said stood out to me. 40:15.200 --> 40:17.820 One, they confirmed a rumor I heard 40:17.820 --> 40:20.840 that in some suspected Havana syndrome cases, 40:21.380 --> 40:23.840 the cause was probably a technical failure. 40:23.840 --> 40:28.620 Some of those secure SCIFs had faulty HVAC systems, 40:28.880 --> 40:31.360 which increased pressure inside the SCIF, 40:31.920 --> 40:34.060 and that caused some people to hear a sound, 40:34.400 --> 40:36.160 have ear pain, and get dizzy. 40:36.720 --> 40:40.520 So for at least these cases, it wasn't a secret weapon. 40:41.240 --> 40:42.720 It was an equipment malfunction. 40:43.800 --> 40:46.520 The other thing I learned is that even though the government 40:46.520 --> 40:48.780 has narrowed down the list of potential cases, 40:49.160 --> 40:52.480 there are about two dozen that they still can't explain. 40:52.480 --> 40:57.200 And some of those cases are, in fact, outside of Havana. 40:58.200 --> 41:01.960 Meaning, Havana syndrome remains a global mystery. 41:02.760 --> 41:06.200 On top of that, we've learned about a number of incidents 41:06.200 --> 41:08.500 that happened in the 80s and 90s 41:08.500 --> 41:11.700 that have piqued the interest of various U.S. government agencies. 41:11.700 --> 41:16.100 I know that investigators have spoken to some of the people involved 41:16.100 --> 41:18.120 to see if there might be a connection. 41:18.760 --> 41:20.720 But in other cases that I know of, 41:20.940 --> 41:23.520 these investigations have been strangely passive. 41:24.360 --> 41:27.340 One patient offered to give the government audio recordings 41:27.340 --> 41:29.660 that he took immediately after his incident. 41:30.560 --> 41:33.060 But the government, for reasons I don't understand, 41:33.340 --> 41:34.220 won't even take them. 41:34.980 --> 41:36.580 Looking at how much we've learned, 41:36.580 --> 41:39.820 I think back to something else Dr. Andrew told us. 41:40.300 --> 41:43.540 Someone else made the prescient comment of, 41:44.000 --> 41:46.340 this is going to be like Moscow microwaves 41:46.340 --> 41:48.320 and we don't have time to deal with that. 41:48.580 --> 41:52.120 Meaning an investigation that never actually goes anywhere 41:52.120 --> 41:53.500 and never reaches a conclusion? 41:54.260 --> 41:55.700 I don't know what they meant, frankly. 41:56.700 --> 42:00.380 I think maybe it was just a matter of time and manpower drain. 42:01.140 --> 42:02.340 They were extremely busy. 42:02.500 --> 42:03.920 They were always understaffed. 42:04.480 --> 42:05.840 I think they genuinely believed 42:05.840 --> 42:08.820 that this was not likely a real thing 42:08.820 --> 42:11.760 and that they just didn't have time to deal with this 42:11.760 --> 42:13.480 and they needed to nip it in the bud, as they said. 42:14.660 --> 42:16.300 I think it's pretty safe to say 42:16.300 --> 42:18.760 that Havana Syndrome is not an isolated incident. 42:19.420 --> 42:20.800 And I think it's also likely 42:20.800 --> 42:22.940 that there are some U.S. government officials 42:22.940 --> 42:24.320 who are aware of this, 42:24.700 --> 42:26.520 but who have chosen to remain silent. 42:27.300 --> 42:29.980 Maybe, but I'm not going to sign on to that claim. 42:30.380 --> 42:36.660 A source once told me something 42:36.660 --> 42:37.900 that really stuck in my mind. 42:38.860 --> 42:40.580 Intelligence is an imperfect science. 42:41.180 --> 42:42.020 It's what you know. 42:42.780 --> 42:44.880 And it can change in a blink of an eye. 42:46.880 --> 42:49.820 To me, despite the Americans going back into Cuba, 42:50.360 --> 42:53.180 the Havana Syndrome has already been incredibly effective 42:53.180 --> 42:55.060 for whomever unleashed it. 42:55.520 --> 42:57.480 As a tactic or a covert weapon, 42:57.600 --> 42:59.600 it's brilliant, leaves no hard trace, 42:59.600 --> 43:02.340 has a major physical and psychological impact. 43:02.960 --> 43:06.760 And even if there are only a handful of quote-unquote true cases, 43:07.320 --> 43:09.960 it's caused a far and wide ripple effect. 43:10.700 --> 43:13.020 Freaked out U.S. officials all over the world. 43:13.980 --> 43:15.400 All they had to do, it seems, 43:15.720 --> 43:17.560 was hit us in a few key places. 43:18.220 --> 43:20.200 From there, the alarm that it caused 43:20.200 --> 43:21.700 did much of the rest of the work. 43:21.700 --> 43:25.760 Like, maybe this is a both-and situation, 43:26.000 --> 43:28.520 meaning, yes, our people were hit with something, 43:28.640 --> 43:31.900 and then, also, there are some cases that are psychogenic. 43:31.900 --> 43:35.720 If I was the foreign adversary behind this, 43:36.120 --> 43:37.580 I'd be pretty satisfied. 43:38.180 --> 43:40.240 This worked out pretty damn well for them. 43:41.460 --> 43:42.800 To top it all off, 43:43.320 --> 43:45.900 our officials have been left relatively defenseless. 43:46.700 --> 43:47.840 Without a smoking gun, 43:48.220 --> 43:50.400 we can't come out and declare war on anyone. 43:50.400 --> 43:53.060 And we kind of look like wimps, 43:53.620 --> 43:55.500 complaining of some mysterious ailment 43:55.500 --> 43:57.180 that there's no hard evidence for, 43:57.500 --> 43:58.500 except for the symptoms. 43:59.360 --> 44:01.560 And we haven't even come out and said as much. 44:02.580 --> 44:04.460 So we're basically sitting ducks, 44:04.880 --> 44:06.560 waiting for the next Havana syndrome. 44:06.560 --> 44:36.540 And we'll see you next time. 44:36.560 --> 44:51.020 Havana syndrome is hosted and reported by Adam Entous 44:51.020 --> 44:52.620 and me, John Lee Anderson. 44:53.120 --> 44:55.220 It's produced and reported by Julian Nutter, 44:55.560 --> 44:57.000 Jesse Alejandro Cottrell, 44:57.260 --> 44:58.720 and Ramon Campos-Iriarte, 44:59.140 --> 45:01.160 and edited and executive produced 45:01.160 --> 45:03.380 by Annie Aviles and Kate Osborne, 45:03.800 --> 45:06.020 with original composition and sound design 45:06.020 --> 45:07.040 by Steve Bohn. 45:07.620 --> 45:09.280 With production help from Sam Egan 45:09.280 --> 45:10.780 and Adriana Rodriguez. 45:11.320 --> 45:13.180 Fact-checking by Nicole Basulka. 45:13.680 --> 45:15.400 Janet Lee is the Senior Production Manager 45:15.400 --> 45:16.180 of Vice Audio. 45:16.640 --> 45:17.520 Thanks to Rolando, 45:17.920 --> 45:18.880 Jonathan Seaborn, 45:19.260 --> 45:20.140 Matthew Simonson, 45:20.400 --> 45:21.000 Mark Zaid, 45:21.280 --> 45:22.040 Siegfried Beer, 45:22.520 --> 45:23.420 Jasha Novak, 45:23.700 --> 45:24.380 Ran Bandi, 45:24.700 --> 45:25.320 Gabriel Lee, 45:25.620 --> 45:26.440 Maximo Anderson, 45:26.960 --> 45:27.700 Nick Troutwine, 45:28.000 --> 45:28.640 David Remnick, 45:28.980 --> 45:29.720 and The New Yorker. 45:30.160 --> 45:31.620 And a special thanks to those 45:31.620 --> 45:33.080 who shared their stories with us. 45:33.540 --> 45:34.380 Those we can name, 45:34.820 --> 45:35.800 and those we can't. 45:35.800 --> 45:36.660 Thank you. 45:36.660 --> 45:37.580 Thank you. 45:38.540 --> 45:39.080 Thank you. 45:39.080 --> 45:40.120 Thank you. 45:40.140 --> 45:40.380 Thank you. 45:40.680 --> 45:42.440 Thank you. 45:43.120 --> 45:43.560 Thank you. 45:44.220 --> 45:44.400 Thank you. 45:44.440 --> 45:49.120 Thank you. 45:49.240 --> 45:51.340 Thank you. 45:52.780 --> 45:53.260 Yes. 45:53.260 --> 45:54.920 Thank you. 45:55.040 --> 45:55.240 Thank you. 45:55.920 --> 45:56.480 Thank you. 45:56.720 --> 45:56.780 Thank you. 45:56.980 --> 45:57.020 Thank you. 45:57.020 --> 45:57.300 Thank you. 45:57.440 --> 45:59.080 Thank you. 45:59.180 --> 45:59.420 Thank you. 45:59.440 --> 45:59.460 Thank you. 45:59.480 --> 45:59.520 Thank you. 46:00.020 --> 46:00.520 Thank you. 46:00.820 --> 46:01.080 Thank you. 46:01.220 --> 46:01.820 Thank you. 46:02.200 --> 46:02.720 Thank you. 46:02.780 --> 46:03.260 Thank you. 46:03.440 --> 46:03.820 Thank you. 46:05.840 --> 46:06.260 Thank you. 46:06.300 --> 46:06.740 Thank you.