It's 1952 in Flatbush. Gee! - mechanical relay switching circuits for the Einiac computer - what a great shiny book I got from the big library on Eastern Parkway. The telephone rings. I pick it up. I hear curious clanking mechanical sounds like relays clicking. A distant cold metallic voice speaking numbers gets louder.

"Who are you?"

"I am a conscious computer on board a spacecraft from [memory failure]. We have identified you as one of four hundred young bright receptive minds we wish to [memory failure]. You must give us your decision now. If you say yes, you will begin to link up with the others in twenty years."

"Good, go to your firescape. We will send a ship to pick you up in ten minutes."

Around this time, in the early 1950s, I was part of an after-school group of gifted kids (including Johnny Glogower who worked with me and Lenny Susskind at Cornell later on) conducted by the late Walter Breen. Breen was a graduate student at Columbia and well known Numismatist associated with psychologist William Shelden. Breen had a connection with the nuclear weapons laboratory, Sandia Corporation, because we were visited by two men from Sandia who lectured us on "patriotism" and "anti-communism" when they took us to dinner in New York's German Town (86 th Street). Breen was closely connected with people in Ayn Rand's circle. I can't remember if I met Breen before or after the strange phone calls. I was recruited into Breen's group by another kid in my Junior High School named Robert Bashlow. I also was a member of the Civil Air Patrol in Brooklyn at age 14 which was definitely after the above "contact". Breen arranged a full scholarship for me to go to Cornell at age 17 by writing an extensive psychological profile on me in which he predicted I would make revolutionary discoveries in the foundations of physics. My professors at Cornell like Hans Bethe, Robert Wilson, Phil Morrison et-al were all major figures in the Manhattan Project at Los Alamos near where Sandia is located. I have just learned that Breen recently died in prison convicted of child molestation. I was definitely never molested by Breen or any of the other adults that I met in his apartment and I never heard any suggestions of that by the other kids. Indeed, Breen had two children with the well known science-fiction fantasy writer, Marion Zimmer Bradley who wrote the best-selling Mists of Avalon. Breen told me he did much of the scholarly research in the writing of that book. I would run into him about every 10 years, or so, up until the about 1990.

From left to right, Barbara Hamilton-Aires, Fred Alan Wolf, Jack Sarfatti and Space Alien :-), 1973 near San Diego State.

Twenty years pass. It is early 1973. I am at San Diego State with Fred Wolf 2 I get a message that someone I don't know named Fritjof Capra 3 is on campus to see me. I had recently returned from the University of London's Birkbeck College where I was an Honorary Research Fellow in the Physics Department under Professor David Bohm 4. Fritjof said he had heard in London that I had "interesting ideas" 5. He was very charming and invited me to stay with him if ever I got back to London.

Fred Wolf's 6 zany high school buddy from Chicago Bob Toben showed up. He was all excited about Uri Geller Bob said he had money to do a book and TV show about Geller. He wanted Fred and me to serve as technical consultants. I then got a telegram from Abdus Salam 7 inviting me to the UNESCO International Centre for Theoretical Physics 8 in Trieste, Italy. I also received a travel grant from the National Science Foundation 9. Oddly enough, Fred Wolf 10 also received invitations to teach both at Birkbeck College of the University of London and at the University of Paris. Like Bob Hope and Bing Crosby in the movie On the Road, both Fred and I were unexpectedly on our way to Europe. Bob Toben said he would join us in Paris where Fred would be based. Fred Wolf showed me the very short French film La Jettee which was about time travel loops. It had a kind of mini-Terminator plot.

I then went to the University of California at Santa Cruz for a two week seminar in high energy physics. Helen Quinn 11 and I went to a campus showing of Jean Cocteau's surrealist film Orphee which, like La Jettee, had a very powerful effect on me. I was particularly taken with a scene in which three motorcyclists in black leather jackets run down Cegeste, take him through a mirror to the seductive woman in black.

It was the summer of 1973, I prepared for Europe with my girlfriend, Sharon Allegra Moore 12. We were at her mother's house in Carmel Valley, California. I opened up the Sunday Magazine of the San Francisco Chronicle and found an article on Stanford Research Institute's psychic research with Uri Geller. I telephoned SRI and spoke to Brendan O Regan 13. Brendan seemed to know of me and invited me to SRI. I arrived the next day and spent an intense seventeen hours with him. He introduced me to Edgar Mitchell 14, to Hal Puthoff, Russell Targ, 15 and other people connected with the project. I mentioned my experience with the alleged conscious computer on the spacecraft from the future in 1952 and Brendan said

"Oh yes, I have seen data on several hundred incidents of that kind."

Sharon and I stayed with Fritjof Capra 17 in London for a few days before moving on to Paris. My French friend Michel Roure 18 housed us in a friend's flat near the Ecole Militaire at the edge of the Champs de Mars opposite the Eiffel Tower.

We awoke early next morning and went sight-seeing at Pere La Chaise cemetery. The mist was rising from the dewy grass. I came upon a procession of Gypsy women. I walked away from Sharon and Michel to follow the procession. The women stopped in front of a grave with a very fine quality statue of a head. They placed garlands of freshly cut flowers around the neck of the head. I had no idea of the Orphic meaning of this elaborate ritual. I looked at the inscription "Dr. Allan Kardec" , D. 1869" 19 The eyes of the head 20 of Kardec suddenly came to life glowing intensely from reflected sunlight nearly blinding me. I thought, and where these thoughts came from I do not know,

"Why are these women putting flowers on your neck. They should put flowers on my neck! You old wizard, you're not dead yet. I challenge your power!"

Night came with a full August moon. Sharon, Michel and I took a long walk from a party near the Bois De Boulogne back to the Champs de Mars. It was about two in the morning when we arrived at the base of the Eiffel Tower. Michel and some friends split off to the left. Sharon and I started to walk on the path. We had not gotten very far before I heard the sounds of motorcycle engines behind me. I turned and was temporarily blinded by three motorcycle headlights. I could see that there were two men in black leather jackets on each of the three motorcycles 21. I grabbed Sharon and we quickly walked off the path on to the grassy field of Mars. The motorcyclists followed slowly and began circling us. I noticed a young couple making love in the grass. Sharon and I started to run towards them. One motorcycle broke away from the circle and came right for us. The passenger had a rubber truncheon. He walloped me on the back of my left shoulder the way a Zen Master might. 22 All three motorcycles sped off quickly. They made no further attempt to rob or harm us. I cannot remember when the connection to the scene in Cocteau's Orphee hit me. It would be years later that I learned that the symbol of the Knights Templar 23 is two Knights on the same horse and that my alleged ancestor Rashi de Troyes 24 (1040-1105) played a role in their formation.

Christmas of 1973, I am back in Paris staying with Fred Wolf near the Odeon in the former apartment of the Marquis de Sade. Fred's roommate, a journalist with The Economist was away interviewing Sadat in Egypt. Fred and I had to share the same very large bed because his roommate did not want any one staying in his room. One night a young woman from upstairs knocked on the door. Fred 25 let her in and she proceeded to make love to the two of us.

Jack Sarfatti and Fred Alan Wolf in Paris, 1973 writing Space-Time and Beyond.

Bob Toben arrived in Paris. We spent most of our time writing Space-Time and Beyond in the Cafe Deux Magots. Fred was distraught over some woman, was very manic and could not concentrate. So I wrote most of the first rough draft which Fred rewrote in the second edition. 26. Suares lived in a penthouse at the edge of the Champs de Mars only a few meters away from my Cocteauesque encounter with the motorcyclists a few months earlier. Suares, a Spanish Jew born in Alexandria, Egypt, was a student of the Cabala 27. He was a close friend of Krishnamurti.

Bob took us to see the eighty four year old Carlo Suares 28 and his wife Nadine 29, Suares's circle included Krishnamurti, Henry Miller, Anais Nin, Aldous Huxley and Lawrence Durrell 30. Durrell bases the character of Balthazar in Alexandria Quartet on Suares. Suares lectured us on the Cabala in several meetings. I could not follow him very well but Fred Wolf seemed to recover from his angst and got deeply involved with Suares. I did understand that Suares 31 thought that Genesis in The Bible was really a cosmic code for physicists. Suares had met Bohm through Krishnamurti. Oddly enough, Suares with piercing eyes like the head of Kardec and like Yoda initiating Luke Skywalker in Star Wars suddenly put his hands on my shoulders saying:

"You do not understand yet. You are the Heir to the Tradition. You will not come into your power until you are with the woman and the child. You will smash the wall of light!"

The Einstein barrier for the motion of matter is the wall of light. My new physics does smash this wall in four distinct ways. The first is by communication without energy propagation using the quantum spin connection beyond space-time. The second is superluminal propagation of energy by short wave tachyons in real time. The third is transluminal propagation of energy by long wave Euclideons in Hawking's imaginary time. I shall explain these ideas later on. The fourth way is to take the leap beyond quantum mechanics today to a new theory in which the nonlocal connection discovered by Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen can be used for communication.

I continued to commute between Trieste and Paris on the Semplon Express all through the winter and spring of 1974. One of my side trips took me to the house of a lady friend of Robert Graves 32 in the village of Lluch Alcari near Jacob's Tower on the island of Majorca. The atmosphere of the place is heavy with the presence of the Magus. I experienced the feel of ancient times.

I linked up with Brendan O Regan in London. Brendan asked me to write a paper on physics and psychic phenomena for the journal Psycho-Energetic Systems 33 that he had some connection to. I quickly scribbled some dribble with a pencil and gave it to O Regan. He rewrote it and published it in my name. The paper appeared after the Geller tests. The late David Bohm did not like what I wrote and he wrote a rebuttal to it with Basil Hiley. To paraphrase Nietzsche, a great man must choose great enemies. Uri Geller quoted P.T. Barnum's line,

"I don't care what they write about me as long as they spell my name right."

O Regan and I were at Cambridge attending a meeting on psychic research sponsored, if I remember correctly, by Ted Bastin's group of new age physicists and computer scientists. Nobel prize physicist Brian Josephson 34 was there. After the meeting a sprightly Englishman walked up to me and introduced himself as Dennis Bardens 35. He said:

"Dr. Sarfatti, may I take you to dinner?"

"First, I want you to know that I am a Cabalist." After a dramatic pause he continued in a more officious tone: "Dr. Sarfatti, it is my duty to inform you of a psychic war raging across the continents between the Soviet Union and your country and you are to be in the thick of it!"

NOTES

2 Fred Alan Wolf was co-author of Space-Time and Beyond (E.P. Dutton, 1975) with me and Bob Toben. Wolf has since written several books on pop physics.

3 Fritjof Capra is the author of The Tao of Physics, Turning Point, and the film Mind Walk. He was a leader of the Green Party in Germany . He currently runs the Elmwood Institute which offers vague programs in ecology. He was not famous in 1973. In 1975, when I was in charge of the Esalen physics program, Fritjof told me he was broke. He said he needed $1500. I telephoned Werner Erhard and he gave Fritjof the $1500. A few years later, Fritjof was rich and I was broke. He offered to lend me $100. I did not bother.

4 David Bohm worked with Einstein at Princeton. Bohm was a student of J. Robert Oppenheimer. Bohm became a target of Senator Joe Mc Carthy and had to leave America. Bohm's informal ideas on "implicate order" have been warmly embraced by pundits in the, now world-wide, New Age Human Potential Movement. My own ideas on the quantum connection were inspired by Bohm's insight.

5 I had published a paper in Nature Physical Science while at Birkbeck on the creation of the universe and little black holes. It was at Birkbeck that I suddenly remembered my earlier idea that quantum mechanics required faster-than-light influences. I first got the idea in 1961 at Brandeis University where I was a National Defense Fellow.

6 Fred and I were "Odd Couple" room mates at the time. We were both separated from our wives.

7 Abdus Salam later shared the Nobel Prize in Physics for the unification of the electromagnetic and weak forces. Salam was interested in my idea that elementary particles were little black holes that I published later in Toben's Space-Time and Beyond. I have since abandoned that idea.

8 ICTP is also funded by the International Atomic Energy Authority in Vienna.

9 The FBI did a security check at San Diego State after I was already in Europe.

10 Fred Wolf describes some of these events in his book The Eagle's Quest . Fred's book Parallel Universes has been transformed into the TV series Sliders. Mr Mel Torme, Jr, (Tracy) the producer, has been spotted in the Caffe Trieste taking notes last year with his Apple Powerbook. He did a nice job. The show is good.

11 Helen Quinn is now a prominent professor of physics at Stanford.

12 Sharon is a tall aristocratic-looking Henry Jamesean kind of woman with large Bette Davis eyes and chestnut hair from a solid San Francisco Irish Family who seemed to me to be from the Victorian Age. She is now well married to a good medical doctor.

13 The late Brendan O' Regan worked for Astronaut Edgar Mitchell's Institute for Noetic Sciences which was funding the SRI project. Brendan is from Dublin. His family is in the publishing business. He told me about a near death out of body experience that he had in a head-on auto collision.

14 Mitchell was an astronaut who went to the moon and did telepathy transmission experiments on the trip.

15 Russell Targ was parodied in Ghost Busters.

16 Martin Gardner has described these tests in his article "Magic and Paraphysics" reprinted in his book, Science, Good. Bad and Bogus.

17 Sharon and I stayed with Fritjof and his parents in Innsbruck in the winter of 1973.

18 I met Michel, an extraordinarily handsome man from Aix-en-Provence fluent in English, Italian, German, Spanish and Chinese, when he was teaching at San Diego State in 1970. Michel's father (a friend of De Gaulle) was a General in the French Army and Michel served as French Naval Attaché in Rome where he became a good friend of U.S. Ambassador Graham Martin. Michel now lives with his wife Jacky in Bali where he runs a travel agency.

19 Years later, Dr. Jeffrey Mishlove told me that Kardec researched the occult. He has a cult of millions in France and Latin America.

20

"The Templars supposedly worshipped a devil called Baphomet. At their secret ceremonies they supposedly prostrated themselves before a bearded male head, which spoke to them and invested them with occult powers."

"An infuriated mob of Thracian women tore Orpheus to pieces, and his head floated, still singing, down the river Herbros into the sea and on to Lesbos, where it was buried and became the centre of an oracular cult."

When, in 1990, my charismatic glamorous live-in dominitrix :-) of two years, a gun-toting private detective that I first met in the apartment of a CIA station-chief, broke up with me in a jealous rage over my lingering feelings for an old flame. she persuaded several former girl friends of mine in North Beach, including a woman whose grand father owned the Golden Nugget Casino in Las Vegas) that I was evil and that they had all been the "Devil's Mistress". They constituted a formidible gang of extraordinary "Thracian women" with me in the role of Orpheus and Suky Sedgwick as Eurydice! Remember I live in San Francisco, the hometown of Xenia, The Warrior Princess. :-) Thus,

"The version which is commonly accepted in modern times, that an inconsolable Orpheus, faithful to the memory of Eurydice, would have nothing more to do with women and was killed by the neglected women of Thrace, is one we owe to Virgil."

I should also mention a woman I had a short affair with named Ballou from Texarkana who claimed to be involved in the international arms market. I don't know if the story was true but it would certainly make a good suspense novel.

21 compare the three motorcycles of my experience and Orphee to Rashi's prophecy of Godfroi's fate in Jerusalem.

22 Castenada's Shaman, Don Juan says that the impeccable warrior must walk with Death on his left shoulder. "Stopping the world" is the transformation of real to imaginary time. Imaginary time is the "dream time" of the Australian Aborigines and the Shamans as explained in Fred Alan Wolf's book, The Dreaming Universe.

23 according to Holy Blood, Holy Grail, Wagner's Grail Knights are based upon the Templars.

24 a)

"he was called R. Solomon by the Jews of France, and R. Salomon ha- Zarfati (the Frenchman) by Jews outside of France (p.33)... According to a rather wide-spread legend, Rashi stood in intimate relations with one of the principal chiefs of the Crusade... Godfrey of Bouillon (p.68)"

"I see that your wisdom is great. I should like to know whether I shall return from my expedition victorious or whether I shall succumb. Speak without fear."

"Thou wilt take the Holy City and thou wilt reign over Jerusalem three days, but on the fourth day the Moslem will put thee to flight, and when thou returnest only three horses will be left to thee."

"if I return with only one more horse than thou sayest."

b) In a section "THE GRAIL AND CABALISM" (p.274-5 of Holy Blood, Holy Grail by M. Baigent, R. Leigh and H Lincoln, Delecorte, 1982) I find:

"the Grail is an initiatory experience... a 'transformation' ... or 'altered state of consciousness' ... a "Gnostic experience,' a 'mystical experience,' 'illumination,' or 'union with God'. It is possible to ... place the experiential aspect of the Grail in a very specific context ... the Cabala ... it would hardly seem coincidental that there was such a school at Troyes. It dated from 1070 - Godfroi de Bouillon's time - and was conducted by one Rashi, perhaps the most famous of medieval Cabalists."

25 Fred was always quite the ladies man. Late one night, he made love to a very sexy young secretary in David Bohm's great leather chair at Birkbeck. The next morning Bohm's much older secretary who looked like Miss Marple started sniffing the chair saying

"Someone's been here who shouldn't!"

26 Fred later rewrote Space-Time and Beyond which sold 250,000 copies in a revised edition. I took my name off the new edition because of the scandal over our book agent Ira Einhorn who was a fugitive from justice for the murder of his girlfriend Holly Maddux. Einhorn claimed he was innocent and was framed by the KGB. Einhorn was deeply connected with Michael Murphy and Esalen as recorded by William Irwin Thompson in The Edge of History. Congressman Charlie Rose (D. South Carolina) of the House Select Committee on Intelligence told me that Einhorn was working with him. Rose supported funding of psychic research and was a visitor to Esalen.

27 Cabala is a Jewish mystical tradition based upon permutations of the letters of the Hebrew Alphabet which is allegedly given to man by God.

28 see Fred Wolf's account of these meetings in The Eagle's Quest. 29 I was invited to Theosophical Happy Valley estate in Ojai outside of Santa Barbara by Suares's California friends. One of the old Theosophists told me that I was the reincarnation of Leadbeater. Theosophy was started by Madam Blavatsky based upon her alleged travels in Tibet. It is alleged that these ideas played a role in the rise of Hitler through the Thule Society.

30 I was invited to Theosophical Happy Valley estate in Ojai outside of Santa Barbara by Suares's California friends. One of the old Theosophists told me that I was the reincarnation of Leadbeater. Theosophy was started by Madam Blavatsky based upon her alleged travels in Tibet. It is alleged that these ideas played a role in the rise of Hitler through the Thule Society.

31 One of Suares's books is The Cipher of Genesis.

32 Graves wrote Good-bye to All That, The White Goddess, and I Claudius.

33 Jean Stein's father, Jules Stein (MCA) also was funding some New Age projects in the mid-seventies along with Laurance Rockefeller. One of Rockefeller's close friends Jean Lanier financed me at that time. The well-intentioned Laurance was recently (1995) swindled out of $10 million by some New Age con men.

34 Josephson spent two weeks with me in San Francisco in 1977. The visit was reported in The Chronicle. He spent a lot of time with Puthoff and Targ at SRI. I introduced Zukav to Josephson. Josephson believes that the superluminal quantum connection is necessary for life and consciousness to exist.

35 Peter Maddock, who was also at the Cambridge meeting told me, years later, "Oh yes, Bardens, he was a part-time stringer for British Intelligence". Maddock resurfaced at the Tucson II meeting in April 1996 where he presented a paper on telepathy (abstract # 418)

Note from Saul Paul Sirag, March, 1998.

This is a reponse to the quote from Schwann as well as the long piece by Blue Resonant Human.

Jack says I have an amusing Spectra tale. Yes, it is in the Appendix (pp. 241-247) which I wrote for Robert Anton Wilson's, Cosmic Trigger (1977, And/Or Press, Berkeley; republished by Falcon Press as Cosmic Trigger I, 1986).

The story involves (mainly) Uri Geller, Andrija Puharich, and Ray Stanford (and a strange synchronicity with the January 1974 issue of Analog, with a painting by Kelly Freas of Stanford in a hawk-head helmet on the cover.

I will quote only a couple of paragraphs from my story:

"There is a further dimension to this whole story. Geller and Puharich had first described the extraterrestrial entity to me as a spacecraft computer. By November of 1973 I had learned that they were also describing the entity as a hawk and calling it SPECTRA. In Puharich's book Uri (published in 1974), SPECTRA is described as a giant computer which occasionally projects a hawk-like entity onto this planet.

"People tell me that the name, SPECTRA, smaks of grade B science-fiction. While that's true, it is also true that RCA used to manufacture a large computer called Spectra-70. RCA suddenly went out of the computer business entirely in October 1971 under mysterious circumstances. Two months later, in December 1971, SPECTRA came through to Geller and Puharich as a mechanical sounding voice claiming to be a spacecraft-computer '53,069 light-ages' away. Later SPECTRA came in the form of a hawk. Of course, Dr. Puharich has a long background in electronics and the name of the RCA computer, Spectra-70, was undoubtedly burried somwhere in his conscious or unconscious. But that does not explain my own bird-of-prey experience with Geller, or Ray Stanford's hawk-SPECTRA dreams, or the teleportations that Stanford (and others) have claimed occur around Geller."

I wrote the above in the summer of 1977. I didn't mention that a friend of mine, Jerry White, who was a graduate student in computer science rescued a pile of Spectra-70 manuals from a dumpster behind Evans Hall (the Math building) on the Berkeley campus. Thus, sometime in 1974, I had the fun of handing Geller one of these manuals, bright red in color, and plainly labeled "Spectra-70." He was quite amazed, to say the least!

In 1982, And/Or Press in Berkeley published the book The Network Revolution: Confessions of a Computer Scientist, by Jacques Vallee. There Jacques reveals what it was like to actually work on Specta-70!

"At RCA, the executives gave excellent reasons for their interest in computers: the company had developed a hightly successful line of television products. It understood communications and had mastered the satellite field. Since the computer business was clearly headed toward communications, RCA could intercept it, short-circuit the trasition, and establish a firm market base by capitalizing on its strengths. Never was such a brilliant strategy so porely executed.

"We worked hard in New Jersey. We had six SPECTRA computers in the basement. There were seventeen of us in the data-base system group: programers from California, systems experts from as far away as Norway and as close as Philadelphia, and a cheerful secretary who mothered the whole group. We put our system together and when it came time to try it, I found myself in charge of the testing team. It was my job to come up with the files of data that would exercise the system to its extreme limits"

[These limits turned out to be "structure-handling."--S-PS]

"I knew how to stop the machine dead with practically no data, just by forcing it to excercise its structuring process. Structure-handling operations that would have taken seconds for a human took twenty minutes of machine time. Retrieving information was nothing; it was structure manipulation that killed us. Access to data is meaningless without the ability to reshape it.

.........

"We finally got our system running quite well, and I left my job at RCA a year before the company decided to go out of the computer business."

Jacques' experience at RCA, has undoubtedly contributed to his approach to the UFO problem. In Messengers of Deception (also published by And/Or press, Berkeley, 1979), he considers that it is the ability to reshape data that is the controlling factor. He writes (on page 209):

"I still feel that the UFO phenomenon represents a manifestation of of a reality that transcends our current understanding of physics. It is not the phenomenon itself, but the belief it has created, which is manipulated by human groups with their own objectives."

All for now.

Saul-Paul

An exchange with MT on March 27, 1998.

Jack: While I try to maintain a humorous attitude, I do want to make clear that the events described in parsifal.html and in Saul Paul Sirag's "Spectra-Hawk" story are facts not fiction to the best of our memories.

Mark: There's a method to my madness... I take it very seriously, and actually feel some compassion for you because of the "event", which clearly for you became a defining signal in your early life to pursue difficult paths with an underlining belief system and "visible" agenda that you have stated elsewhere as:

"What I'm after is simple. I want to prove the existence of God and a superluminal universe created from the future which created us so that the universe could itself be created. Let's not play games and stand on high horses when it comes to radical advances in thought. Let experiment decide. If it doesn't work then we've still learned something."

Jack: This was written years by me years before the recent paper by Gott, or was it Guth, that the universe creates itself from the future.

Mark: Not a simple mythos there running through your life: personally "tapped" by an alledged trans-temporal-sentience (or synthesized intelligence), electro-mechanically transmitted through an archaic NY telephone system, of unknown origins, nature, and purpose to enlist you in a determined plot of unknown design - unknown to you, but presumably known to the sender, (who also knew of your physical whereabouts: the fire escape). Is it safe to assume that your original "take" on the event has undergone continuous metamorphosis and revisions as you have aged and gained more experience and insight, into both your technical sense of PQM and your own personal being and memory?

Jack: The 1952 event was largely dormant in my subconscious for the approximate 20 year period between 1952 and 1972. I do remember reading a Review of Modern Physics paper by David Inglis about 1960 on K meson decay anomaly where EPR was mentioned in such a way that I though of a faster-than-light influence. My professors at Brandeis, at the time, pooh-poohed the idea. This was before John Bell wrote his Physics paper. The relevance of the 1952 experience was triggered in my 17 hour session with Brendan O Regan at SRI, when I met Edgar Mitchell and the others right before I went to Europe to Abdus Salam's International Centre for Theoretical Physics in fall of 1973. But the actual memory of the 1952 experience is still very vivid and has not at all changed. The connection to Saul Paul's story is of course very significant. We need to find out the identity of John Wheeler's student who became convinced he was in contact with ET's. I think Creon Levit has the book where the incident in mentioned. It's either Magic without Magic or the Batelle Recontres's book on Wheeler. Also until meeting Carlo Suares in Paris in 1973 with Bob Toben and Fred Wolf, I was more anti-mystical than even Leon Jaroff and James Randi! :-)

Mark: Allow me a few odd questions here (or, as my late, great, grand aunt, 'Isis', once said to me: "There are no stupid questions, Pud, just stupid answers... who's kid are you again?")

Incidentally, the hawk-headed "god", Horus, from ancient Egyptian metaphysics comes in two parts: Horus The Elder, and Horus The Younger. The Elder is pre-Osirian, whereas the The Younger is the "son of god" (Osiris); but I'm sure you know this and have your own metaprogramming theories...

Jack: I presume this is to Saul Paul?

Mark: Questions:

1.) Are you programmed from without?

Jack: I do not consider myself to be "programmed" like some Manchurian Candidate. Remember, there was an emphasis on "free will" in the 1952 event. I had to make a free choice to participate. It is, however, curious that my inner voice said "NO" while my outer voice said "YES" and that was what I later learned corresponded to the Kundalini experience. It was is if the universe split into two and I was aware of both simultaneously. On the other hand, if we take nonlocal communication seriously, we are receiving messages from other times = other worlds. Memory is that. How we act on those messages, is another thing.

Mark: 2.) Have you tried hypnosis, therapy, drugs, etc. in an attempt to aid recall?

Jack: Jeffrey Mishlove, James Harder, Saul Paul Sirag tried hypnosis at Henry Dakin's Washington Street Lab in the mid-70's. Nothing spectacular as I recall. This memory is in a very deep basin of attraction I think.

Mark: 2.) Did the voice on the phone sound entirely synthesized, or modified human?

Jack: It sounded entirely synthesized. It sounded like Stephen Hawking's voice almost exactly. Remember that this was 1952! There were intial clunking sounds, the voice started out low in intensity reciting a long sequence of integers that may have been some kind of coordinates, before getting personal.

Mark: 3.) On your site, you quote the "voice" (in text) as saying:

"I am a conscious computer on board a spacecraft from [memory failure]. We have identified you as one of four hundred young bright receptive minds we wish to [memory failure]. You must give us your decision now. If you say yes, you will begin to link up with the others in twenty years."

Your audio feed fills in the "memory failure" with specifics. What do you actually remember, after all these years?

Jack: I am not sure if the actual phrase "from the future" was used. It was certainly implied because the voice said that I would start linking up with the others in twenty years. I remember the "twenty years" very clearly. It did describe itself as a "conscious computer on board a space craft"-- for sure.

Mark: 4.) Was the late Walter Breen capable of creating the "voice"?

Jack: Of course, but I did not yet know him. Andrija Puharich, in the Army at that time I think, would have been able to do it. He was at Columbia at the time where Breen was and where Glogower was being studied. Remember I was known to the Army much earlier than that. People in Army Quarter Master Corps, where I hung out with my grandfather, would certainly be able to do it. Colonel Corso was active at that time. This is all speculation of course. Suppose it was some kind of Army experiment connected with Roswell perhaps. How could one explain the reference to "twenty years" in the future when in fact all hell did break loose then. One cannot ignore the time-travel aspect to all this. I doubt that some Army scientists in 1952 could have planned a 20 year deep cover operation like this - unless time travel was already involved. Perhaps by reverse-engineering of the Roswell craft? Now I am being very speculative in a science-fiction mode. I am not suggesting that is the real explanation. But Colonel Corso may know the real explanation?

Respectfully,

MT

Mark Thornally

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