UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 Welcoming Linda From: pwedel <pwedel@neptune.on.ca> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 97 20:12:52 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 00:45:32 -0400 Subject: Welcoming Linda Hello Linda, Nice to be able to address you in cyberland. Big Warm Welcome :-). I have hesitated emailing thinking that you are probably inundated with email and have virtually no life at all. I would like to submit a few questions to the forum (ie. *you*) and hope they are not too demanding on your time. 1) How have you found your personal and professional lives been affected being one of the main characters in a popular book on this subject? 2) Would you recommend (now having been thrown into the public eye) that other 'experiencers' go public with their experiences? I understand you had some uncomfortable experiences with people after the event - (understatement I know). 3) What 'things' have you found helpful to keep your sanity through all this? 4) In hindsight, is there anything you would have done differently in bringing this part of yourself forward? I will refrain from asking the 2386 other questions I have, realizing Errol would blackball me from this list for overloading his server. :-) :-) :-) Thank you (in advance) for your time and effort in responding to what will probably be more than a few questions from everyone. Best regards, Paul. Paul (Twigman) Wedel !-:-) There are many paths through the forest, they all lead to the other side.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 NATO & Command Sergeant Major Robert O. Dean From: Michael Hesemann <100660.3672@CompuServe.COM> Date: 30 Apr 97 19:59:10 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 00:34:54 -0400 Subject: NATO & Command Sergeant Major Robert O. Dean There has been a lot of controversy regarding the person and background of alleged Command Sergeant Major Robert O. Dean and his claims that a. He was stationed as CSM at NATOs SHAPE (Supreme Headquarters of allied Powers in Europe) HQ in Rocquencourt/France b. His alleged "Cosmic Top Secret" Clearance c. His insight into "The Assessment", an alleged NATO UFO study. Two of his claims were confirmed officially by NATO, as the skeptic German UFO organisation GEP (Gesellschaft zur Erforschung des UFO-Phanomens - UFO Research Society) had to admit after a careful study, originally intended tro discredit Dean and his claims, after Dean spoke on the Dusseldorf International UFO Congress in October 1992. GEP wrote to NATO and asked questions RE Dean. Here are the replys to GEP chairman H.W.Peiniger: * * * ORGANISATION DU TRAITE DE LATLANTIQUE NORD NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY ORGANIZATION 1110 Bruxelles Dear Mr. Peiniger, regarding your letter of 12 April 1992, in which you asked for further information about Robert Dean, I waill try to answer your questions as far as my investigation in this matter allows: 1. According to the US military representative in the Military Commitee of NATO a Robert O. Dean retired in the rank of a Sergeant Major in November 1976. 2. A NATO Coworker with the above mentioned rank can have access to classified documents if he has the necessary clearance. 3. I am not able to give you further information on the person, because of the American "privacy law". 4. Yes, this classification (Cosmic Top Secret, MH) existed as the time in question. (...) With best wishes W. D. Alquen German PIO NATO Office of Information & Press" SUPREME HEADQUARTERS ALLIED POWERS EUROPE B-7010 SHAPE BELGIUM 05 May 1993 RE: Your letter of 12.04.1993 to the NATO Office of Information & Press Dear Mr. Peiniger, NATO Office of Information and Press sent me the above mentioned letter and asked me to reply. Unfortunately I cannot answer all your questions. The following information might help you a little bot. The Supreme Headquarters of Allied Powers in Europe )SHAPE) were until 1967 near Paris in Rocquencourt. (...) The access to classified material does not depend on the rank, but from clearance and authorization, given in the case of thenecessity to have access to fulfill a special mission. "Cosmixc Top Secret" is one of the possible classifications. Sincerely yours Rainer Otte Lt. Col." I hope these letters clarify some points of controversy regarding CSM Robert O. Dean. Yes, the man is genuine, he was what he claims he was. He DID have a Cosmic Top Secret clearance. Has he indeed seen the "Assessment" on UFO activities? Maybe. At least NATOs comment gives us no reason to question his personal integrity. Michael Hesemann, Dusseldorf/Germany
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 Re: Book: 'Left at East Gate'?? From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:55:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 00:18:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Book: 'Left at East Gate'?? Regarding... >Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:59:12 -0400 >From: Graham William Birdsall <106151.1150@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Book: 'Left at East Gate'?? Graham writes: >There has always been a considerable amount of confusion relating to >the dates of alleged UFO activity in or around RAF Woodbridge in >December 1980. Graham, It might help if Colonel Halt would stop moving the goalposts! >Things really began happening on 26 December when Halt was called >from a Christmas Dinner Dance being held at RAF Woodbridge to >check-out reports of lights being observed by security personnel off >base. If only it were so simple. This is from an earlier interview (possibly from the "Unsolved Mysteries" feature?): "In 1980 I was assigned to RAF Bentwaters/Woodbridge. It was a combination twin-base complex. I was assigned as the Deputy Base Commander. On the evening of the 29th December, we were having the Combat Support Group Christmas party. We'd just finished dinner when the Lieutenant on duty came in just white as a sheet and said, "I've got to talk to you and the Base Commander, right now". And he said, "It's back". We looked at each other and looked at him and said, "What's back?" He said, "You know, the UFO, it's back". Now the dinner party was on the 29th, a Monday, and the second event therefore took place that night and the early morning of the 30th. Halt has said elsewhere that it was a "belated" Christmas party. Maybe the belated dinner party was actually on the Sunday - that would perhaps be more traditional and generally suitable for everyone - and the second incident took place on that evening and the morning of the 29th, as originally claimed in Halt's memo. If the original incident took place during the early hours of the 26th, as apparently evidenced by the police records, then it would have been three nights earlier. Interestingly, Halt continues: "We crossed Bentwaters and out the back gate to the Woodbridge base. We proceeded on into the forest to the area where the supposed landing had taken place several nights earlier". "Several nights earlier" makes a difference to a number of aspects. In this account, Halt again confirms that when he was told about the "return" of the UFO, he was with the Base Commander, Wing-Commander Gordon Williams. >...what I found to be of particular interest in 'Left at East Gate' >was this passage in Chapter 11: [...] >'According to Spiegel, Halt had told him that beings HAD been >observed on the third night of UFO activity and that Gordon Williams >had been involved that night. He also said that "a lot more" happened >than people realised. Colonel Halt would only tell what he knew of >the whole story if Congress subpoenaed him to testify.' Do we know if Spiegel confirms this claim made by Larry Warren? Bustinza has already refuted one of Warren's stories and others are known to be unreliable. In the early interview mentioned above, Halt also stated, "I never saw anything as far as an alien being or anything that could be considered human, humanoid, or anything of that nature, although I had a distinct feeling, in fact I'm permanently convinced, the objects we saw were under some type of intelligent control". In the April 1994 OMNI interview, it's reported, "Halt says he has been "harassed" by UFOlogists and fanatics. While half a dozen men assisted Halt's investigation and dozen's of others were near the scene, only a handful of witnesses have come forward. At least one of them, Halt says, is spreading disinformation, consequently media coverage has been inaccurate at best. For instance, he says, "The stories about holographic like aliens emerging from their craft are pure fiction"". >On a further positive note: 'Left at East Gate' may result in new >witnesses coming forward, especially US and UK military personnel who >were stationed at RAF Woodbridge & RAF Bentwaters at the time. Hopefully it will serve as a catalyst to help clarify some of the true facts. You also mention: >Halt struck me as an entirely credible individual, but unlike Larry >Warren, refrained from entering into any discussion about the nuclear >capability of RAF Woodbridge. Some time ago, I asked an acquaintance who lived near the twin bases for an informed opinion on a couple of points; was it conceivable that the beam from Orford Ness lighthouse could be seen in the forest and is mistakenly referred to on the tape made by Halt, and was there any security concerns at that time about the activities of the "Woman's Peace Movement". As I'm sure you recall, they were active in protests against the deployment of nuclear weapons at US bases in England. Just for information, this was Chris's response: "I certainly share the view that nobody is likely to confuse Orford lighthouse with anything else. The beam of Orford light is indirectly visible all over this area depending on the level of atmospheric moisture but a direct line of sight to the light source is unlikely due to terrain and trees. I have never tested the theory at the landing sight but the light cannot be seen from nearby roads, only, occasionally, the refracted/reflected beam as mentioned. This is very much weaker than direct sight of the tower would give. NOBODY around here could ever confuse Orford light with anything else, it is stationary, plain white and flashes in a short, repeated pattern. The theory about the light appearing to move when viewed through trees would, I believe, only work with a bright point source fairly close by". He investigated this further: "Following my last mail I decided to go home via Rendlesham last night to check the lighthouse thing. From the area between Woodbridge East Gate and the area known as 'staging post' in the Butler/Street book only the sky glow of Orford lighthouse can be seen not the light source. From the far end of the site ie by the lane east of the farm fields the glow itself is less visible due intervening terrain and trees. I didn't check the middle of the forest as it is not the place to walk without a torch but I am confident the light is not directly visible at any point. [...] I have no recollection of there being any WPM activity at Bentwaters or Woodbridge at any time. The bases were low profile on a national scale so would be unlikely to attract much attention. The weapons storage facility at Woodbridge probably included 'hot' weapons while the bases operated the F4 but I'm sure these would have been removed when the squadrons changed to the A10 which has no nuclear weapons capability. Most WPM attention seemed to have focused on deployment of the Tomahawk cruise missile - this was never part of either F4 or A10 operations. In summary, it's possible that WPM visited the bases briefly during this period but there was no long-running 'vigil' that attracted my attention or the local media". The point about Orford Ness lighthouse is obviously of some interest. Perhaps also worth pointing out that Chris made this trip on the 21st December, when the conditions, particularly the amount of foliage on the trees, would have been comparable. James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 08:47:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? > From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com > Date: Tue, 29 Apr 97 18:16:50 cst > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen > .... > You seem to be ignoring the possibility that these guys, Adamski > and Meier, deliberately made this stuff up (lied). Naturally, > neither was in possession of information concerning the weather > on Venus -- which, if you accept their stories at face value, > they should have known before Carl Sagan. > > Either they made these stories up or the Cosmic Space Brothers > lied to them. Which do you think is more likely? Now that ufologists can accept that abductees are genuine (since about 1985), one can first ask a question like that about them. Haven't we read of a lot of abductees being told and shown things that either didn't turn out to be true, or that conflicted with or contradicted each other? We have come to realize that most abductees' stories of having been abducted are true; but does that require us to believe that everything they are told or shown is also true? Obviously not! So I see no reason why contactees need have been treated more honestly by their contactors, especially those whose experiences are supported overwhelmingly through witnesses' reports as well as UFO photos/movies. Such a contactee would need to be fed disinformation that would lead ufologists, scientists and the news media into thinking they are fakes, would they not, in order that the aliens not blow their own coverup and violate their "Prime Directive?" I don't know enough about Adamski's case to try to defend him; obviously IF he met aliens who told him they were from Venus (or rather the surface of Venus), we suspect he was fed a lot of bull. Meier was told by Semjase that Adamski was a fake; was that mostly bull? In the case of Meier, he didn't meet "Venusians" and didn't see any signs of life on Venus on his five-day space trip to various spots. He didn't see the surface of Venus at all until they emerged below cloud base, when he was told they were down to 40 km above the surface. He describes it (this was following his 15 July, 1975, contact) as wild looking and covered with craters, with some not-too-high mountains on one side. He was told he could not photograph through the viewing screens as he had done when they were much higher up above the clouds, because their view screens that permitted photography had to be closed down when they got lower, due to Venus's high temperatures nearer the surface; yet he could see through this other view screen lower down. This doesn't sound very plausible to me. Though Meier would of course accept what he was told at face value, why should we? He could have been shown anything through those view screens, for example, including the apparent cloud formations he did photograph from pretty far out, and we might not be able to tell if it was deception or not. > Adamski & Meier's Venusean/Plieadian Space Brothers have been > heavy on the platitudes, but light on hard data. If they wanted > to be taken seriously, don't you think they might have passed > along some useful tidbit such as verifiable, but previously > unknown, scientific or historical data that would unquestionably > establish their emissaries' bonafides? How about the 40 km figure for Venus cloud-base height? That's not too far off from the 45-47km figure I find from browsing various articles in _Science_. Though this cloud-base height was known within the planetary science community by 1975, it seems improbable it was known then by a man who did not get past elementary school in his formal education. But a key question is: would the aliens want their contactee to be taken seriously by ufologists first, then by scientists, then by the news media and the general public, after having gone to such pains over 50 years not to let the coverup come unraveled prematurely with respect to UFO sightings in general or abductions either? Jim Deardorff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 New Info on Black Helicopters.. From: MWayne@bigfoot.com (Michael Malone) Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 01:51:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 10:15:20 -0400 Subject: New Info on Black Helicopters.. I know I have been fairly unbelieving in the whole "black helicopter" issue. I think most of the black helicopters are bunk and are reported by people who have little understanding of helicopters in general, the military, or how surveillance would be done.... But tonight I've seen the oddest thing. I'll check when I get in to work to see if there was any announcements of maneuvers in my area, but this is truly odd. I was asleep on my couch. The wife is sick, and I was trying not to disturb her with my rather loud snores. I had the patio door open so I could get some fresh air. (Wife gets worse sinus problems with the A/C than with outside air.) Anyway, I know that our apartment is on a line with the end of the runway into Redstone Arsenal, a US Army Base. It is currently the home of MICOM (Missile Command) and will soon be the home of the Army's Aviation Command. (The commands will be combined and the new acronym escapes me.) Anyway, it was about 1 O'clock when a loud airplane noise woke me up. Obviously it was a low flying airplane. I glanced out on the patio in time to see a single light fly over. Not thinking much over it, just a late night MAC or C-140 flight into Redstone, I ignored it. When it happened again within a few minutes, I went out on the patio to see if I could ID the plane. It wasn't a plane, but 4 dark helicopters. I wouldn't mention this at all except... three of the four were flying lights out. The only reason I could see those three was their shape clearly illuminated under the clouds which were lit up by the lights of Huntsville. I can not be 100 percent sure, but I am fairly confidant that one of the birds was a RAH-66 Comanche. A minute or two after this pass, I heard approaching helicopters again. I bolted out the door, down to the parking lot, and saw another group of four, again only one was properly illuminated. This time I am close to 90 percent sure one of the birds was a Comanche, and the other was the large, twin rotor helicopter that has been around since Viet Nam. The third dark helicopter was, I think, a pretty typical Bell Longranger, or whatever the military calls them, but this bird had a spotlight shinning in front. (The other, and upon reflection more likely, possibility for this bird is the Huey.) The illuminated bird in this cozy little foursome was an attack craft of some sort. I don't think it was a Cobra, although it could have been. I think it more likely an AH-64 Apache. I know it had wings, so it might have even been an AH-64 Longbow. Within minutes of that flyover, another group of helicopters flew over. This time it was three, and much less noisy. While it could have been four, I only saw three and what seemed to be missing was the twin rotor bird, which would explain the reduction in noise. Also missing was the searchlight on the lead dark bird, but again the group was followed by a properly illuminated Attack bird. Additionally, the two dark birds had their forward port/starboard lights on, but not their rear rotating white light. This brings up many questions. Was it four differant flights of helicopters? I'm assuming that the first noise I heard was helicopters instead of a plane. Was it the same flight 4 times? Why are military aircraft flying over populated Huntsville (and within the Huntsville-Madison County International Airport) without proper lighting? The Aviation Command has NOT moved to Huntsville YET, so why are there attack helicopters, and possibly a STEALTH (The Comanch is stealth, for those unaware.) helicopter flying lightless over Huntsville? Even when the Aviation Command arrives at Huntsville, the command is mostly civilian bean counters and military office personell. It isn't going to turn Redstone into an active air base. The flight schools aren't moving here and no air squad is moving to Redstone... Just the command personell. So I'm looking for anyone who might have insight into this. Additionally, if you have reports of similar flights of helicopters, I'd like to know when and where. I don't really want to know (at this time) the sightings of single black helicopters. Instead I am interested in those flights that have three or four mixed helicopters in them. Attack, utility, and Cargo... that are flying in unusual places under unusual situations. Such as very low in the daytime or blacked out and low at night. Thanks, Michael Malone -- Michael Malone Kilo Foxtrot Four Mike Yankee X-ray
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 Re. New Mars Face? From: Alfred Breull <puma@hannover.sgh-net.de> Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 09:43:38 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 10:27:05 -0400 Subject: Re. New Mars Face? >From: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de (Joachim Koch) >Date: 29 Apr 97 22:59:00 +0000 >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re. New Mars Face? >To: updates@globalserve.net >>Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 15:03:33 -0500 (CDT) >>From: MAC TONNIES <0212104@ACAD.NWMISSOURI.EDU> >>To: updates@GLOBALSERVE.NET >>Subject: Re. New Mars Face? >>My opinion, after studying the Viking imagery, is that the >>now-infamous Martian "structures" were built using already >>existing landforms and "modifying" them. In this sense, ETI >>critics who proclaim that the Cydonia face is "merely a mesa" >>are partially correct. >A very old culture right here on Earth did the same about six to eight >thousand years (or older) ago: The Minoans in Crete. [snip] >Joachim Koch King Minos (island Crete) lived between 1597-1521 bc, not 6-8 thousand years ago. Minos is the king with the famous labyrinth/ maze, which was built by Daidalos (father of Ikarus, who tried to reach the sun with wax wings). The Daidalos/ Ikarus saga is dated at 837 bc. Alf --------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 Re: Questions for Linda Cortile From: HONEYBE100@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 03:33:11 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 10:18:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Questions for Linda Cortile >Date: Wed., 30 Apr 1997 14:42:02 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Ted MacLeod <tmacleod@gemsoft.com> >Subject: Questions for Linda Cortile >Dear Linda Cortile, >In response to Greg Sandow's recent invitation, I have a few brief >questions about the psychological impact of the aliens written with >detail in Budd Hopkin's latest book "Witnessed". What I would like >to know concerns the after-effects of your experiences rather than >what the aliens did at the moment of your 'contacts'. > 1/ How has your "view of the world" changed since the emergence of > these experiences to your emotional and intellectual conscienceness? Dear Ted MacLeod: How nice to hear from you. I'm happy to answer your questions. Thanks for giving me the chance to air some of my own opinions and feelings about my case/experience. My "view of the world" before this case unfolded was very simple. I was always a trusting person and I believed that everyone was just like me. I was raised as a Roman Catholic, Conservative Republican. I believed everything I was taught at home. We were not superstitious, however, every now and then we'd have a Catholic priest come and bless our home for reasons we couldn't quite understand ourselves. As it stands, my view of the world is now somewhat different. I'm not as trusting as I used to be. I'd realized that others weren't trusting, just because I was. Intellectually, I've learned a lot more about people. Emotionally, we were devastated. In a lifetime, we learn about the miracle of love, birth, religion, politics and death. No one has ever brought up the subject of aliens. To say the least, it was an unpleasant surprise. This case has made the lives of my family and me, a mess. But we're all a lot better now. I have gained more faith in God. It had to be His strength that pulled us through. > 2/ In your opinion, what psychological effect would these aliens have on > the population of the world supposing their existence became a undeniable >reality? Panic!!! We have to remember that most people, globally, do not believe in the existence of alien beings. I would imagine that most people would react the same way I did, when I saw what was standing at the foot of my bed on November 30, 1989. However, on the other hand, I do believe that everyone has a right to know what's going on. It should come out gradually in order to prepare the public. I believe that we're all "sitting ducks." This isn't fair. > 3/ What plans do you have for further investigation of your experience? Absolutely no plans. I regret having found out what was really going on. Although Budds' book is well written, some of my opinions differ from his. I believe that aliens exist only because I saw them with my own eyes. Other than that, I would probably not believe in their existence. I don't expect most people to believe what has happened to me. However, I do expect most people to keep an open mind for objective skepticism. Thank you, I appreciate your questions. Linda Cortile - New York City
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 Re: Financing For Hearings In Congress,(idea) From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 00:50:52 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 09:49:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Financing For Hearings In Congress,(idea) >From: EdKomarek@aol.com >Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:16:56 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Financing For Hearings In Congress,(idea) >A POTENTIAL INTRODUCTORY LETTER >Toward gaining corporate financing for hearings in Congress >By Ed Komarek >Dear Chairman--- Ed, do what you're gonna do. Before you start writing letters to corporate CEOs, however -- letters that will never reach their desks in the first place -- might I suggest that you consult something as basic as a dictionary if you don't have one? What in the hey, for example, are "competiours"? The word I assume you want is "competitors." It's not "a effort," but "an" effort, not "idenified," but "identified," not "endevors," but "endeavors," not "evenutaly," but "eventually," and so on. >Presently three major UFO groups are involved in building grassroots >support and are lobbying Congress. These groups have idenified over >100+ individuals that hold or have held high security clearances and >who claim to have worked on alien projects. If MUFON is one of these three supposed major UFO groups, I beg to differ. We have never even remotely claimed to have the names of 100 people, let alone 100+, who claim to have been involved with, or to have worked on, "alien projects." If CUFOS and FUFOR are the other two major groups you have in mind, while I can't speak for them personally, I believe they would issue similar denials if asked. Letters such as this, which I assume you intend on sending out regardless of what I say, are but one reason why the field of ufology as a whole is so widely regarded as a hodge-podge of kooks and crackpots, and a laughingstock in the bargain. I happen to personally know the CEO of a Fortune 500 company -- involved in aeronautics -- and I can assure you that your letter, as worded, will not get past the proverbial first base. In the unlikely event that it does, however, it will do us more harm than good. "Oh, ufologists," I can hear him saying now. "Aren't they the people who can't even spell, let alone back up their claims? And I'm supposed to put my good corporate name (and that of my stockholders) behind their efforts to petition congress? Maybe when pigs fly -- unless you try to tell me that flying pigs are reverse-engineered UFOs." So do what you gotta do, Ed. Just don't do it in my name, MUFON's or anyone else's but your own. And when you do it in your name, be sure to spell it rihgt. >(: Dennis PS: Finally, yes, several interesting projects (MUFON-related and otherwise) are in the works. In the main these are financed by individuals with a private interest in the UFO subject. To disclose more at this time would be to jeopardize their financial backing. How would you feel, by way of example, if the press in your city, state, or country constantly associated you with the Heaven's Gate disaster and other UFO-related imbroglios? In fact, given Heaven's Gate and its extreme sensitivity, ufology will be extremely fortunate if these individuals don't withdraw their behind the scenes support altogether. Any studies resulting from same will be duly published and made public. To concentrate on who made what possible in the meantime is to flirt with potential disaster -- in terms of both ultimate potential and outcome. If this causes some to perceive me and MUFON as "conspirators," so be it. But if we can offer witnesses anonymity, why should financial supporters who wish to remain anonymous be regarded any differently? You'll see the results -- or lack thereof -- soon enough. They may or may not be in areas you've already anticipated. That isn't to monger mystery, so much as to say just atay tuned.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 Posting Rules From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 10:45:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 10:45:47 -0400 Subject: Posting Rules Posting Rules To help current and future readers of UFO UpDates' posts and the UFO UpDates Instant Archive software at: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates please observe the following rules when posting to the List. 1. Line-length Please make your lines no more than 70 characters long ------------------------This line is 70 characters--------------------- Longer lines are wrapped by various pieces of software along the Net and leave awkward and eye-jarring line lengths. 2. Attribution When responding to a message from the List, _always_ include the four line 'header' from the body of that message at the start of _your_ message - e.g..: >Date: 01 Jan 97 00:00:01 EST >From: Genghis@mukluk.com <Bob Bobberts> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Grays are Grey Area Again - it's at the beginning of the 'body' of the message you are responding to. 3. Quoting _Always_ quote from the message to which you are responding. Start each quoted line with a 'greater-than' sign (>) as the first character. It should look like this: >Start each quoted line with a 'greater-than' sign (>) as the >first character. It should look like this: The Archive software will automatically italicize these lines. Visit the Archive page and take a look. Keep quoted material from previous messages to a minimum: Just quote enough text to let people know what you are referring to. Quotes should come _before_ you key your response. Messages that do not utilize the required quoting protocol or contain excessive quoting will not be posted to UpDates. Most modern E-Mail software will allow the user to click a 'Reply' button and automatically open a new window, with the message being responded to inserted with universal quote-mark (>) at the beginning of each line. When 'Reply' is clicked, some E-Mail software will insert a line which states: On 01 Jan 97 at 00:00:01 EST, UFO UpDates wrote: If your program does this, please remove it - UFO UpDates did not _write_ the message - it merely posted it to the List. 5. Don't send 'personal' responses to the list that should be sent directly to the original author. Send a message to the list only if it contains new information that you want _everyone_ to see. Messages that contain what the List Administrator considers to be personal attacks or 'flames' will not be posted to the List. Those messages will be forwarded to the person they refer to for their information. 6. URLs (Web Site addresses) _must_ include 'http://' and be on one line. The Archive software will make the URL a 'click-able' link to that address in your archived message. ------------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 Skywatch: UFO Aficionados To Hold Campou From: "SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL" <skywatch@mail.phoenix.net> Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 06:12:47 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 10:59:13 -0400 Subject: Skywatch: UFO Aficionados To Hold Campou ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: Ndunlks@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 03:34:11 -0400 (EDT) To: Skywatch@phoenix.net Subject: UFO Aficionados To Hold Campout c The Associated Press ROSWELL, N.M. (AP) - UFO aficionados could have a camping experience that's out of this world this summer when they sleep at the site where some believe an alien spacecraft crashed 50 years ago. The camping will be part of a weeklong celebration commemorating the 50th anniversary of the alleged sighting. Previous tours of the property have been limited to 30 minutes during the day. ``Ever since we first began letting people visit the site we've been asked if we'd allow them to camp overnight,'' said Roswell rancher Hub Corn. Tickets for one night during the July 1-6 anniversary week cost $90, and are limited to 2,000 people, organizers said in a news release. Organizers also plan to install a memorial stone sculpture garden featuring 20-foot-tall obelisks and a plaque dedicating the ``sacred site'' to ``the beings who met their destinies near Roswell, New Mexico, July 1947.'' A rancher near Roswell found debris on July 8, 1947, and an Air Force officer was reported to have discovered a flying disc, fueling UFO buffs' theories. A 1994 Air Force investigation found that the debris probably came from a once top-secret balloon designed to monitor the atmosphere for evidence of Soviet nuclear tests. AP-NY-04-30-97 2248EDT Copyright 1997 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without prior written authority of The Associated Press.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 Alfred's Odd Ode #131 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 07:23:47 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 10:48:45 -0400 Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #131 Apology to MW #131 (For March 1, 1997) Beyond lies a void with its end a beginning. It won=92t end with you, and it goes extra innings. It dissolves, and breaks down what you thought to construe. You know it by now, it=92s your Alien View. Ever thought of yourself at universe center? You=92re trained hard from birth for the cultural blender. You=92re hard pushed, remember, to be part of a team. "Forget about self, it=92s OK when it=92s mean." But returning to self is where it=92s all happening! Self aware is a state of your own self awakening! It=92s a shock to discover what=92s always been true; At the center of everything what=92s found there is . . . you! Let Imrie, and ilk pull the wool over eyes? Piss the sense that God gave you away, as despised? Forget it completely that quality people Are *filming* high strangeness betwixt bunky steeples?=20 Sure, and I understand *most* of it=92s fake. Sure, but I understand, _completely_, the stake. Sure, and I know I should keep my mouth shut! Sure, and I know some will think I=92m a nut <g>. But there is something real one can feel at the core, Conveniently hidden behind the closed doors. A plan to round up all the dissidents, say! Called "88", it has antecedence! Pray! And what if the plan=92s afoot, fellow motes? To suspend Constitutions, and make them a joke! Contrived terror in "heartland" gives *black shops* free reign To put us in collars, and muzzles, and chains! Think of the drug deals that screw inner cities. Think of the money fanning skinhead *sensibility*. Think of divisiveness taught by our ministry. Orchestrated by whom, and for what hidden sinistery? Meanwhile, there is Earth, offended by our presence. Tobacco companies win the right to sell slow death to peasants. Ollie North is heaping filth on wholesome _just_ revision; He=92d make a swell inquisitor in his _hoped for_ inquisition. =20 And here you are so all alone, at the center of your universe. It=92s down to you, so buy into the challenge of a multiverse. The length and breadth won=92t go away because you=92ve shut your eyes. High strangeness is what=92s usual, and it highlights, shines, and cries. Did you know that Europa shows a massive revolution? Did you know that NASA chose to suspend that institution? Did you know that pictures show what we=92re not meant to see? They *show* from 7000, folks, and they=92ve *imaged* from 350! And what do you bet that Mars is a bust =96 and strangely inconclusive. What do you bet that the face is made dust, the public made intrusive. And what do you bet that all your hopes, and dreams of satisfactions . . . At whims of fates you could control . . . if you saw though their distractions! We have the tools, and the knowledge needed. We just lack the will, our trust is impeded. Our media allows our leaders to hide In denials just plausible, though no less contrived!=20 We=92re fat little fish in a pond drying fast. We=92ll be splashing in mud at the end =96 at the last. We should have saved more, and had fewer babies. We can still turn the tide, and respect more, our ladies. Our watchers are baffled by our seeming indifference. To let children die =96 poison Earth for convenience. To act so pedantic while suffering reigns? To let suffer slings arrows, and insufferable pains. . . ? To act in this manner =96 with the kingdom at hand. They just can=92t get by it, they don=92t understand. How do some feast at a Sonic or Burgerking Knowing their purchase supports widespread suffering. The unexamined life, I=92ve heard, is really not worth living. Unchallenged faith is valueless, and harmful in the giving. You make the call, it=92s your decision, you _do_ reap what you sow. It=92s the winter of your discontent; at once it sucks, and blows! Lehmberg@snowhill.com =20 Face it! It has _never_ been the "niggers" and the "spics", and "hebes." It=92s just you, and you alone. You buy in! You decide! You give in to the hate! _You_ refuse to forgive, and forget. _You_ put the derision in the minds of your children when you just stood silent. _You_ allowed the creation of a black government that operates outside all your control. _You_ allowed the national debt to sail past $5,000,000,000,000. _You_ mortgaged your future to the meter man so he could attach his chain to the ring in your nose! _You_ may even be the one throwing trash from your bleeding car! =20 Consider what Henry Beston wrote in 1928 . . . "We need another, wiser, and perhaps more mystical concept of animals.=20 Remote from universal nature, and living by complicated artifice,=20 man and civilization surveys the creature through the glass of=20 his limited knowledge, and sees, thereby, a feather magnified,=20 and the whole image in distortion. We patronize them for=20 their incompleteness, for their tragic fate of having=20 taken form so far below ourselves =96 and therein we=20 err, and greatly err. For the animal shall not=20 be measured by man. In a world older, and=20 more complete than ours they move finished, and complete, gifted with extensions=20 of the senses we have lost, or=20 never attained =96 living by=20 voices we shall never=20 hear. . . They are not property; they are not underlings!=20 They are other nations, caught with=20 ourselves in the net of life and=20 time -- fellow prisoners=20 of the splendor and travail of the=20 Earth." =B1 . . .Kind=92a makes a point, don=92t he? What kind of respect are _you_ showing for the splendor, and travail of the earth? How far above the animals do you think _you_ are? Dominion means stewardship, brothers and sisters! Caretaker, not plunderer! Friend, not master! Hand, not fist! Light, not darkness!=20 --=20 "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake, the center of his universe made unjust!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:22:12 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 09:44:45 -0400 Subject: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen At 11:14 PM 4/29/97 -0400, Vince wrote: >From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com >Date: Tue, 29 Apr 97 18:16:50 cst >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen >>Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:28:15 -0400 (EDT) >>To: UFO UpDates - >>Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! > >[Jeroen Jansen] >I wrote regarding the Meier affair: >To which Mike Christol responded: >>I for one, have not seen any "evidence" that Carl Sagan disproved >>anything regarding Adamski's photos, 8 mm color film, etc. >>I know that many want to think it has been disproved. >>However, one must remember, that those photos and color >>films were made in 1952, etc. There was not the >>sophisticated computer techniques available back then to >>reproduce those type photo's and films. >>Not only that, but very similar UFO pictures were taken of the >>Adamski type UFO in many different countries for many years >>afterwar. >(snip) >>I have also talked to other investigators, who lived in that area >>at the time who went to the place where Adamski allegedly had his >>meeting with the Venusean...this person was impressed with the >>information and the location where the meeting took place. >>I have talked to several people over the years, most of whom >>have passed on now, who thought that there was indeed some >>truth in many of Adamski's stories. >The late Carl Sagan is generally credited as having discovered >that Venus was utterly inhospitable to life -- 900 degrees (but >it's a dry heat) and a crushing atmospheric pressure. In short, >no Venuseans -- case closed on anyone claiming to have met >Venuseans or to have visited Venus -- like Adamski and Meier. In my opinion You assume to much. First of all, we are at the mercy of the scientitic community as to what information is made available to us. Even if we assume that they have shared credible information with us, which in many cases is highly unlikely, that does no preclude the existence of Intelligent or human life forms on The Plane Venus, or any other planet for that matter. It appears, that Richard Hoagland has finally been vindicated in regard to his projected ideas that water could exist beneith the Ice on Jupiter's moon. After 17 years, it appears that NASA is finally having to admit that Hoagland could have been correct. But, that is another story. We are constantly entertaining the idea that Aliens could possibly be dimensional beings transcending time and space as we know it. But all of a sudden we want to disgard that idea when it comes to Alien life forms on any of the near by planets in this system. Why is that? How do you know that, just because the three dimensional planets atmospheric temps is around 900 deg. with no known water present, that in a multi-dimensional world, that would hold true for venus? How about Mars? Jupiter? Saturn? Uranus? Neptune? Mercury and Pluto? I am not sure that aliens in any dimension exist, due to my lack of experience with them. I can speculate as much as I wish, but that does not mean I am correct. Nor does it mean I am incorrect. In my opinion, The case for Alien Existence is a Crap Shoot. Until there is "absolute Proof" that aliens exist, it is all hypothetical...I don't care how many people make extraordinary clames. That includes Meier, Adamski, Walton, Betty Hill, and all of the other experiencers. You put me in a position to defend my ideas. I can defend them based on "theory." I cannot defend them based on "fact." It is my contention that neither can you or anyone else at the present time. So all of this is shere speculation. >You seem to be ignoring the possibility that these guys, Adamski >and Meier, deliberately made this stuff up (lied). Naturally, >neither was in possession of information concerning the weather >on Venus -- which, if you accept their stories at face value, >they should have known before Carl Sagan. Just as you are ignoring the possibility that they actually had an experience which was at the core of their claims. You make a lot of assumptions, Vince. Just because you or I or anyone else has not "seen" the information you are alluding to, does not mean it does not or did not exist now or in the past. This whole conversation is a waste of time...from both positions. Yet, I maintain that: "there is more under heaven and earth than your philosophy has drempt of...." Vince. <g> >Either they made these stories up or the Cosmic Space Brothers >lied to them. Which do you think is more likely? There is another alternative. The stories were origionally TRUE, but, due to interference from "outside" forces, there was no way to prove the truth of them. You are dealing strictly from the bottom of the deck, Vince. Try shuffling the cards; deal them out, and see what they show. You know, Vince, I am not a believer in UFOs or Contactees, or abductees. I have a healthy skepticism, which helps me to maintain a balanced prespective. How about you? This attitude of belittle- ment is more the tool of the CYNIC than the skeptic. WE all should be skeptical, it is healthy. It prevents gulability. >>It doesn't matter if it is George Adamski, Billy Meier, >>or Travis Walton...these people cannot accept the >>reality of those stories. > >Why do you include Walton in this list? Walton hasn't established >himself as an Interstellar Ambassador and Fount of Cosmic Wisdom >like Adamski and Meier. Unlike UFO cultists, he's told the same >exact story for 20 years with none of the "detail inflation" that >plagues most high-profile contactee accounts. That's why I >consider Walton to be credible. How can you not include Walton? It is one phenomena, which is multifacated. You can't pick and choose. You either accept the phenomena as a whole, as Possible, or you reject it as a whole. You can't split hairs...of course you can, but you are being totally irresponsible when you do. <g> I personally don't care if Walton has told the same story for a Thousand years. Unchanged or otherwise...we still have no physical proof. We have polygraph tests of those involved; we have medical reports on Walton after he reappeared; we have testimony from friends and family who know/knew Walton; all of this means absolutely nothing, unless we have the Alien/s and their Vehicle, which allegedly abducted him. I am not saying this did not happen. I feel sympathy for Travis Walton and his family because of the Ignorance of the masses of people and their ability to dish out large amounts of Insincerity and harrassment. :-( >Adamski & Meier's Venusean/Plieadian Space Brothers have been >heavy on the platitudes, but light on hard data. If they wanted >to be taken seriously, don't you think they might have passed >along some useful tidbit such as verifiable, but previously >unknown, scientific or historical data that would unquestionably >establish their emissaries' bonafides? How can you make such a statment with a straight face? You support many of the ideas dealing with Aliens and abductees, yet you stop short of saying it is Scientific Fact. But, at the same time, you pounce on the likes of Meier and Adamski. Adamski had his experience in 1952, and Meier has his in 1975 +. Adamski Died in 1965 0r 1966, and never wavered from his story, as far as I know. I have three different recordings of Adamski's lectures in Detroit, New York and London, England. I have listened to each of them many times, as well as viewed the videos which have been presented to the public....I am not so sure he was the "fake" most people claim he was, BUT, I cannot prove it. So, it is just my opinion! >Do the Cosmic Space Brothers only want the gullible to believe in >their presence and to follow their "teachings"? Hmmm, sounds like >religion to me. Maybe a good dose of "religion," would do you some good Vince. You show signs of Athiesm. Of course that is just my opinion. People "NEED" SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN. Such belief helps them maintain a balanced prespective in a chaotic world. Some day, Vince, you might ask for "teachings." Who knows? <g> >Nope, all we get are aphorisms and platitudes. Shouldn't that >tell you something? If not, I've got a sample of "alien metal" >I'd be willing to sell you. One of the "greatest" teachers in the history of mankind attracted people to himself by using aphorisms, platitudes, and parables. He may not hve attracted you, Vince, but he has attracted millions over a period of nearly 2000 years, world wide...Are you that popular? You assume that I am a gullible person, Vince. You really know nothing about me. All you know is what you read on the message echos. You probably would not like me if you really knew me. I would be to boring for you. My life style would make you want to get away from me as quick as possible. Just my opinion, I might add. <g> >Regards, > >Vince Be at peace Vince. REgards, Mike Search for other documents from or mentioning: mchristo |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 Re: Congratulations Steven Greer & CSETI From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 09:52:18 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 10:50:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Congratulations Steven Greer & CSETI >Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:20:30 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: "S. Baldwin" <sblee@stc.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Congratulations Steven Greer & CSETI >Greer seems to have made some impression on a few people. >To my astonishment he was on the local news (very briefly) here in Atlanta >speaking about his adventure in Washington. His "Briefings" weren't mentioned once during the event in the Washington DC market, which is where you would want to make an impression on the politicians clusterred here. For example, gas prices in the Metro area tend to be about 10 to 15 cents higher in this area to keep politicans in Washington from imposing additional tarrifs or taxes on gasoline. Business has long known how to make an impression on those that forumlate policy, which is one of the major reasons that so many "informational" commercials are aired by lobbying groups in the Metro area. >He came across as reasonably level headed and the newscaster although >unfortunately tying everything in the "x-files" bag, was less than his usual >normal smirking self when UFO's are mentioned. I'm glad they gave it some air time, but most stations use it as "filler" when the news is slow. My guess is that the story will pop up for the next several weeks, as many stations hold the story back until it's needed. It may be featured in a number of markets during the weekend, depending on how many stations Greer/CSETI contacted for interviews. >He said "people were coming out of the woodwork" in Congress to talk to him. >Its a start I suppose..... I would like to hope so, but I have my doubts at this point. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 These Things...JUST DON'T HAPPEN! From: Jeroen Wierda <mj_1@thepentagon.com> Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 17:12:45 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 13:10:32 -0400 Subject: These Things...JUST DON'T HAPPEN! I have placed a new EXTREMELY good on-line book at PUFORI. It is called "These Things...JUST DON'T HAPPEN !". It is about the strange phenomanon that a certain person has had for a very long time. This includes abduction style experiences! I urge you all to read this true story. It can contribute to this UFO world! It can be accessed either from within PUFORI or go to http://www.pufori.org/thes e_things/ to view the book directly! Best, Jeroen Wierda President of Picard UFO Research International URL to PUFORI: http://www.pufori.org/ If I do not reply to mail addressed to me within 3 days, plz resend it. Postal address: Jeroen Wierda, PO Box 352, 5201 AJ 's-Hertogenbosch, the Netherlands
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 Kal Korff - Michael Hesemann Responds From: Michael Hesemann <100660.3672@CompuServe.COM> Date: 01 May 97 11:13:37 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 11:35:04 -0400 Subject: Kal Korff - Michael Hesemann Responds From: Michael Hesemann, 100660,3672@Compuserve.com To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net> Subject: Kal Korffs attacks Date: Thursday, 1 May 1997, 16.49 CET I was just informed that Meier Debunker Kal K. Korff used my absence from the net during my recent visit to the US and Canada for another dirty attack. I once mentioned that Korff obviously was lying about his alleged ability to "speak German fluently" which, as he claims, enabled him to do his highly dubious "research" in Switzerland. When I met him on a conference in L.A., I addressed him in proper German and he obviously didn't understand anything, although I used a simple language and simple vocabulary, what made me doubting his language skills. Now, among other naughty things, Korff admitted that he didn't understand me but blamed me for "not being able to pronounce German properly" for whatever reason. This is just as ridiculous as any other of KKK's numerous lies. I was born and educated in Germany, I studied Cultural Anthropology, History, German literature and Journalism at Gottingen University, I had numerous appearances (without translation, of course) in German TV and I lectured, on a recent lecture tour, in front of about 30.000 people, all Germans, and none of them ever claimed he couldn't understand me. I speak German as good and clear as any other of my 80 Million fellow countrymen and surely clearer than anybody in Switzerland where they speak a heavy dialect called "Schwyzerdeutsch" or "Swiss German" which, BTW, I am able to speak and understand, since my father spent his childhood (during the Third Reich) in Switzerland (his mother was Swiss) to escape the Nazi dictatorship and the Nuremberg Racial "Laws" which classified him as Jewish, since his grandmother indeed was Jewish (although he, himself, is and was a Roman Catholic). In my childhood we visited Switzerland many times and he teached me a bit of Swiss German. Since I was raised in Dusseldorf and Neuss, it is true that I, sometimes, have a slight Rhinish accent which causes me, e.g., to pronounce "ch" as "sch", but that's the only slight difference between my pronounciation and "High German". Korffs claim is not just an outrageous lie, but also another character assassination attempt, claiming that a well-known author, lecturer and media personality is not able to speak his own language properly. Korff himself proved his inability to write (in front of his computer, with all necessary dictionaries next to him) even a sentance in German properly in his own, ridiculous mail. Hoping that he forwards the following message to the cryptological dept. of the very agency he is working for, let me use the opportunity to address him in German with the following words: "Um es ganz klar und einfach zu sagen, Herr Korff, Sie sind eine Schande fur die UFO-Forschung und ich bedaure Ihre naiven Leser, die Ihren ganzen Unsinn und all Ihre krankhaften Lugen noch glauben. Ganz gleich, ob die Ahnlichkeit Ihrer Initialien mit denen der gleichnamigen Organisation KKK zufallig sind oder nicht, Sie benutzen dieselben Methoden!" I predict it will take him a month to get the proper translation... To prove Korff is wrong I am more than happy to meet anybody who speaks and understands German on my next lecture in the U.S. I am more than happy to discuss, whatever you want, in my native language! Beware of KKK-methods in Ufology!! Michael Hesemann, Dusseldorf/Germany
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 Re: The camera equation [was Kal Korff Admits] From: Alfred Breull <puma@hannover.sgh-net.de> Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:40:23 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 13:19:27 -0400 Subject: Re: The camera equation [was Kal Korff Admits] >Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:17:52 -0700 (PDT) >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The camera equation >> Date: 30 Apr 97 09:38:11 EDT >> From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Re: The camera equation [was Kal Korff Admits] >Yet, I'd find it informative to learn just how inaccurate the camera >equation may be assuming an infinity setting on the lens and, say, a 50 m >distance to the object on a "cloudy-day" shutter-speed setting. Stevens >mentions the film involved as having been 18 DIN (whatever that might >mean), with brand names: Kodak, Agfa and Peruz all having been used. > Jim 18 DIN = 50 ASA. The pics must be rather old, if he used an original Perutz film. If I remember correct, they not produced anymore since some years. If you like, I may find out the exact date. Alf Search for other documents from or mentioning: puma | deardorj |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 Returned Message - Not Posted From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 18:29:19 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 18:29:19 -0400 Subject: Returned Message - Not Posted Please read the Posting Rules sent to you this morning and re-submit your message. Particularly the Attribution and Quoting sections. ebk Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 15:15:01 -0400 To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> From: Ted MacLeod <tmacleod@gemsoft.com> Subject: Reply to Linda Cortile... Dear Linda Cortile, Thank you for your unexpectantly speedy answers to my questions and for furthering 'our' understanding of what these alien visitations mean to us as a society. I just want to reply that I greatly empathesize with your feelings of mistrust towards what you had always supposed was "how the world normally was" as well as the resentment towards the intrusions into your life of these unwanted visitors. My only response to your point of view is that I wonder if world opinion would reflect your own when pressed to calmly accept the reality of alien beings and would their first reactions towards these beings, right after the initial shock, be mistrust and resentment also? Would we then want them to go away after not a short while so that we could go on with our 'natural' lives, in an attempt to try and forget our utter helplessness and inferiority in the presence of these beings? I suppose if the aliens were to be intergrated into our society, they would have to give us reassurances that our sense of well-being would not be threatened. There seems to be a few hurdles left to overcome... Again, thank you for your time, Ted MacLeod.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 Re: The camera equation [was Kal Korff Admits] From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 18:25:19 -0400 Subject: Re: The camera equation [was Kal Korff Admits] > Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:40:23 +0200 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Alfred Breull <puma@hannover.sgh-net.de> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The camera equation > >Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:17:52 -0700 (PDT) > >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The camera equation > >Yet, I'd find it informative to learn just how inaccurate the camera > >equation may be assuming an infinity setting on the lens and, say, a 50 m > >distance to the object on a "cloudy-day" shutter-speed setting. Stevens > >mentions the film involved as having been 18 DIN (whatever that might > >mean), with brand names: Kodak, Agfa and Peruz all having been used. > 18 DIN = 50 ASA. The pics must be rather old, if he used an original > Perutz film. Thanks for this info, Alf. > If I remember correct, they not produced anymore since some years. If you > like, I may find out the exact date. I don't think there's any need to delve into that, thanks. The dates of Meier's photo ops are not really in question, except for an occasional erroneous date, like Feb. 29th, 1975 for photo #41. Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 New Canadian UFO Book From: "Joe Daniels (UFO JOE)" <ufojoe@cron-2.mco.on.ca> Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:34:03 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 18:31:33 -0400 Subject: New Canadian UFO Book I just finished reading "The UFO Files" by Palmiro Campagna about a week ago. I'd like to get your opinion of the book. I did spot one error, he says that Keyhoe was the "founder" of NICAP. My understanding is that Keyhoe reorganized NICAP, but he was not the founder. I also have to take exception at the suggestion that Wilbert B. Smith was the target of a disinformation campaign. I also took exception to his personal opinion that what Michalak saw at Falkon Lake was an "AVRO" car. .--------------------------------------------. | From UFO Joe Daniels http://cron-2.mco.net | | 37122-769 Southdale Rd. London, ON N6E-3B3 | | An active member of CUFORN & MUFON Ontario | `--------------------------------------------'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 Re: New Info on Black Helicopters.. From: Don Ledger <dledger@istar.ca> Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 21:46:37 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 20:07:31 -0400 Subject: Re: New Info on Black Helicopters.. > Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 01:51:06 -0500 > To: skywatch@mail.phoenix.net > From: MWayne@bigfoot.com (Michael Malone) > Subject: New Info on Black Helicopters... > I know I have been fairly unbelieving in the whole "black > helicopter" issue. I think most of the black helicopters are bunk and are > reported by people who have little understanding of helicopters in general, > the military, or how surveillance would be done.... > But tonight I've seen the oddest thing. I'll check when I get in > to work to see if there was any announcements of maneuvers in my area, but > this is truly odd. > Michael Malone > Kilo Foxtrot Four Mike Yankee X-ray Snipped for brevity. Hi Mike and List, I have one reason why these choppers might have been lightless. You will probably find that when aircraft are flying formation, even loose formation at night they will not use their strobes because it screws up their night vision and is extremely annoying. Also I once read a really good article on flicker vertigo, a phenomena that usually ocurrs at between 10 and 13 hertz which can cause near hypnosis (or trigger an epileptic seizure in those afflicted) or in some rare cases a blackout. Now before you start snickering be advised that the first studies were carried out in this field by the USAF in the early '60s when they were having unexplained helicopter crashes, notably near sundown when the chopper was landing with the sun in the windscreen. It was finally determined that the rotor blades passing infont of the sun during decent was the culprit, it caused flicker vertigo and disorientation. (Have you ever had the sun coming through a line of trees near sundown when you are driving down a country road. It flickers and is akin to F.V. It has probably been the cause for some car accidents. One chopper following another at night would encounter this phenomena if its rotors pass in front of the windscreen during decent (the pilot is actually looking up through the blades at this point) and of course passing in front of another helicopters lights. You will probably find that the choppers are carrying very low level lights for orientation. Just a thought. Don Ledger dledger@istar.ca Search for other documents from or mentioning: dledger | skywatch |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen From: Michael Hesemann <100660.3672@CompuServe.COM> Date: 01 May 97 17:29:58 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 19:47:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen >Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:22:12 -0400 (EDT) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen >But, at the same time, you pounce on the likes of Meier and Adamski. >Adamski had his experience in 1952, and Meier has his in 1975 +. >Adamski Died in 1965 0r 1966, and never wavered from his story, >as far as I know. >I have three different recordings of Adamski's lectures in Detroit, >New York and London, England. I have listened to each of them >many times, as well as viewed the videos which have been presented >to the public....I am not so sure he was the "fake" most people >claim he was, BUT, I cannot prove it. So, it is just my opinion! Dear Mike, although I know how many will hate me (again) for this statement, I fully agree with you that indeed George Adamski was NOT a fake. I interviewed many of his original eyewitnesses including Lord Desmond Leslie, Madeleine Rodeffer, Bill & Rhoda Sherwood (of KODAK), Major Hans C. Petersen, Lou Zinsstag (+) (Carl Gustav Jungs niece) Glenn, Ingrid and Fred (+) Steckling and others. They are all absolutely down-to-Earth healthy, honest individuals, and nothing would be more outrageous than suspecting that all of them are involved in a conspiracy to protect a cult leader who passed away 32 years ago (in April 1965). To set the records straight, I published the results of my inquiry in a video ("UFOs: The Contacts", Part 1), which is available in the UK, US and Germany. For me it is a matter of fact that he was in contact with "them". This doesn't mean that everything they told him is true. "Alien Disinformation" is a question important to consider, and Jim Deardorff published a brilliant work on this question. Greetings, Mike Hesemann, Dusseldorf/Germany
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com Date: Thu, 01 May 97 14:49:34 cst Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 18:40:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen >Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:22:12 -0400 (EDT) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen On the subject of Adamski's claims of contacts Venuseans with and Meier's claim of visiting Venus, I wrote: >>The late Carl Sagan is generally credited as having discovered >>that Venus was utterly inhospitable to life -- 900 degrees (but >>it's a dry heat) and a crushing atmospheric pressure. In short, >>no Venuseans -- case closed on anyone claiming to have met >>Venuseans or to have visited Venus -- like Adamski and Meier. >In my opinion You assume to much. First of all, we are at >the mercy of the scientitic community as to what information >is made available to us. Even if we assume that they have >shared credible information with us, which in many cases is >highly unlikely, that does no preclude the existence of >Intelligent or human life forms on The Plane Venus, or any >other planet for that matter. Are you really making the case that it is more likely that Meier and Adamski were telling the truth, and that the world-wide scientific establishment is engaged in a deliberate coverup regarding conditions on Venus? As I've pointed out already, that would typify the reaction of a True Believer when his "faith" is challenged by scientific fact. Why do you have such a strong emotional investment in these two men's tales? If Meier and Adamski were proved to be nuts and/or con-men, how would that affect the overall reality of the UFO phenomenon? Are you saying that con-men and crackpots don't exist, or that you find Adamski's and Meier's accounts believable? >We are constantly entertaining the idea that Aliens could >possibly be dimensional beings transcending time and space as we >know it. But all of a sudden we want to disgard that idea when it >comes to Alien life forms on any of the near by planets in this >system. >Why is that? How do you know that, just because the three dimensional >planets atmospheric temps is around 900 deg. with no known water >present, that in a multi-dimensional world, that would hold true >for venus? How about Mars? Jupiter? Saturn? Uranus? Neptune? >Mercury and Pluto? Anything is possible. However, we should not be blind to the possibility that some people just make stuff up for attention or monetary gain. >>You seem to be ignoring the possibility that these guys, Adamski >>and Meier, deliberately made this stuff up (lied). Naturally, >>neither was in possession of information concerning the weather >>on Venus -- which, if you accept their stories at face value, >>they should have known before Carl Sagan. >Just as you are ignoring the possibility that they >actually had an experience which was at the core of their >claims. You make a lot of assumptions, Vince. Just >because you orI or anyone else has not "seen" the information you >are alluding to, does not mean it does not or did not exist now or >in the past. This whole conversation is a waste of time...from >both positions. Yet, I maintain that: "there is more under heaven >and earth than your philosophy has drempt of...." Vince. <g> I'm not ignoring the possibility that these guys may have had a "core" experience. As you say, anything is possible. It's the "probable" that I find to be more useful. In my opinion, Meier and Adamski "probably" are nuts and/or con-men. What do you find to be "probable" in these cases? >>Either they made these stories up or the Cosmic Space Brothers >>lied to them. Which do you think is more likely? >There is another alternative. The stories were origionally >TRUE, but, due to interference from "outside" forces, there was >no way to prove the truth of them. You'll have to explain this statement. I have no idea what sort of outside force could cause one to become a guru to a UFO cult. >You are dealing strictly from the bottom of the deck, Vince. >Try shuffling the cards; deal them out, and see what they >show. You know, Vince, I am not a believer in UFOs or >Contactees, or abductees. I have a healthy skepticism, which >helps me to maintain a balanced prespective. How about you? This >attitude of belittle- ment is more the tool of the CYNIC than the >skeptic. WE all should be skeptical, it is healthy. It prevents >gulability. You seem to be taking me to task for my skepticism. I personally don't equate skepticism about far-fetched claims with "belittlement." If the truth or reason belittles, perhaps that should tell you something. >>Do the Cosmic Space Brothers only want the gullible to believe in >>their presence and to follow their "teachings"? Hmmm, sounds like >>religion to me. >Maybe a good dose of "religion," would do you some good Vince. >You show signs of Athiesm. Of course that is just my opinion. >People "NEED" SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN. Such belief helps them >maintain a balanced prespective in a chaotic world. >Some day, Vince, you might ask for "teachings." Who knows? <g> Which religion did you have in mind, Michael? I personally have never had the need to believe in "Something." There's a heckuva gap between "believing" and "knowing" and I'd much rather aspire to "knowing." >>Nope, all we get are aphorisms and platitudes. Shouldn't that >>tell you something? If not, I've got a sample of "alien metal" >>I'd be willing to sell you. >One of the "greatest" teachers in the history of mankind attracted >people to himself by using aphorisms, platitudes, and parables. >He may not hve attracted you, Vince, but he has attracted millions >over a period of nearly 2000 years, world wide...Are you that >popular? Is this supposed to be a "popularity" thing? If in any of those aphorisms, platitudes and parables had contained a single tidbit of previously unknown but currently verifiable scientific data (the same criteria I've expressed for alleged "alien" data, I might be forced to take them seriously. But as with Meier's "Semjase" and Adamski's "Venusean" teachings, all we got is fluff. Regards, Vince Search for other documents from or mentioning:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 Re: New Info on Black Helicopters.. From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:56:19 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 20:11:20 -0400 Subject: Re: New Info on Black Helicopters.. At 10:15 1-05-97 -0400, you wrote: >Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 01:51:06 -0500 >To: skywatch@mail.phoenix.net >From: MWayne@bigfoot.com (Michael Malone) >Subject: New Info on Black Helicopters... > Anyway, it was about 1 O'clock when a loud airplane noise woke me >up. Obviously it was a low flying airplane. I glanced out on the patio in >time to see a single light fly over. Not thinking much over it, just a >late night MAC or C-140 flight into Redstone, I ignored it. > When it happened again within a few minutes, I went out on the >patio to see if I could ID the plane. It wasn't a plane, but 4 dark >helicopters. > I wouldn't mention this at all except... three of the four were >flying lights out. The only reason I could see those three was their shape >clearly illuminated under the clouds which were lit up by the lights of >Huntsville. > I can not be 100 percent sure, but I am fairly confidant that one >of the birds was a RAH-66 Comanche. Hi Michael, Here is a compilation of reports from Flight Magazine, June 1995, and Popular Science, November 1996. First RAH-66 rolled out 25 May 1995 and made maiden flight in January 1996. The second prototype is scheduled to begin test flying September 1998. Six more "early operational capability" RAH-66's will be delivered after that. The production decision will come (FM June 1995) in 2004. So, if this is the truth and the whole truth and if your observation was correct, you have seen the only RAH-66 around without markings. > A minute or two after this pass, I heard approaching helicopters >again. I bolted out the door, down to the parking lot, and saw another >group of four, again only one was properly illuminated. This time I am >close to 90 percent sure one of the birds was a Comanche, and the other was >the large, twin rotor helicopter that has been around since Viet Nam. Chinook CH-53 probably. > The >third dark helicopter was, I think, a pretty typical Bell Longranger, or >whatever the military calls them, but this bird had a spotlight shinning in >front. (The other, and upon reflection more likely, possibility for this >bird is the Huey.) > The illuminated bird in this cozy little foursome was an attack >craft of some sort. I don't think it was a Cobra, although it could have >been. I think it more likely an AH-64 Apache. I know it had wings, so it >might have even been an AH-64 Longbow. The difference between AH-64A and AH-64D withoug Longbow and the AH-64D with Longbow is the radar and the use of Hellfire II rockets. Longbow is the radar guidance system. All AH-64 Apaches have wings. > This brings up many questions. Was it four differant flights of >helicopters? I'm assuming that the first noise I heard was helicopters >instead of a plane. Was it the same flight 4 times? Why are military >aircraft flying over populated Huntsville (and within the >Huntsville-Madison County International Airport) without proper lighting? >The Aviation Command has NOT moved to Huntsville YET, so why are there >attack helicopters, and possibly a STEALTH (The Comanch is stealth, for >those unaware.) helicopter flying lightless over Huntsville? > Even when the Aviation Command arrives at Huntsville, the command >is mostly civilian bean counters and military office personell. It isn't >going to turn Redstone into an active air base. The flight schools aren't >moving here and no air squad is moving to Redstone... Just the command >personell. > So I'm looking for anyone who might have insight into this. >Additionally, if you have reports of similar flights of helicopters, I'd >like to know when and where. I don't really want to know (at this time) >the sightings of single black helicopters. Instead I am interested in >those flights that have three or four mixed helicopters in them. Attack, >utility, and Cargo... that are flying in unusual places under unusual >situations. Such as very low in the daytime or blacked out and low at >night. >Thanks, >Michael Malone Just a suggestion. Call the base and ask for the press office. Let them explain what was going on. __________________________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Leiden, The Netherlands \___________________________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 1 Re: New Canadian UFO Book From: werd@interlog.com (Drew Williamson) Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 23:12:42 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 23:36:57 -0400 Subject: Re: New Canadian UFO Book >Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:34:03 -0400 (EDT) >From: "Joe Daniels (UFO JOE)" <ufojoe@cron-2.mco.on.ca> >To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: New Canadian UFO Book >I just finished reading "The UFO Files" by Palmiro Campagna about >a week ago. >I'd like to get your opinion of the book. >I did spot one error, he says that Keyhoe was the "founder" of NICAP. >My understanding is that Keyhoe reorganized NICAP, but he was not the >founder. Correct. The founder was Thomas Townsend Brown, Physicist, who is the `Brown' mentioned in the Biefeld-Brown effect. Drew Williamson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 2 PROJECT-1947 - Kent Jeffrey and Roswell From: John Stepkowski <legion@WERPLE.NET.AU> Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:54:27 +1000 Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 01:07:44 -0400 Subject: PROJECT-1947 - Kent Jeffrey and Roswell Hi All; Among several other worthwhile articles, the latest issue of the always intriguing CNI News contains an item on Kent Jeffrey, founder of the International Roswell Initiative. In this 50th Anniversary year of the "Roswell Incident", it's sure to be of interest. - John ==+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++== CNI News -- Vol. 3, No. 4 -- May 1, 1997 Global News on Contact with Non-human Intelligence ==+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++== CNI News is a twice-monthly electronic newsletter addressing UFO phenomena, claims of human-alien contact, space exploration and related issues, including the cultural and political impacts of contact with other intelligent life. CNI News is edited by Michael Lindemann and distributed by the 2020 Group. CNI News is a subscription newsletter. First-time recipients may receive two free issues before subscribing. UFO/CNI researchers, educators and organizations may qualify for a complimentary subscription. For more information on how to subscribe, please see the notice at the end of this issue. Questions and comments may be addressed to: Editor, CNINews1@aol.com. The subject matter of CNI News is inherently controversial, and the views and opinions reported herein are not necessarily those of the editorial staff. [...] ==+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++== "ROSWELL DECLARATION" AUTHOR REJECTS SAUCER STORY But Eyewitness Jesse Marcel Says Debris Was Not Balloon Kent Jeffrey, an airline pilot who wrote and energetically promoted the Roswell Declaration, an international petition calling for an end to government secrecy on UFOs, has decided that the Roswell UFO case does not involve an alien spacecraft as he once assumed. In an interview on KTVU-TV news (FOX Channel 2 in Oakland, California) on April 23, Jeffrey said that after four years of investigation, his conclusions about the Roswell case are "a major disappointment for me. "I started out here in a quest for the truth," he said. "Unfortunately, that truth ended up to be different than I thought it might be and hoped that it would be." Jeffrey was instrumental in getting Roswell witness Jesse Marcel, Jr., a Montana-based physician, to undergo some six hours of hypnotic regression recently in an effort to reconstruct exactly what he saw when his father, Major Jesse Marcel Sr., showed him pieces of debris from the famous Brazel ranch crash site in July, 1947. Young Jesse was only eleven years old at the time. Jeffrey told KTVU that, for him, the veracity of the flying saucer claim stands or falls with Marcel's testimony. "In a sense, you could say that the keys to the Roswell event lie in his [Marcel's] memory banks," Jeffrey said. Marcel's regression session was conducted by FBI hypnotist Neil Hibbler in Washington, DC. Though videotapes of the sessions have not been released, one person to whom Kent Jeffrey showed the videos told CNI News that Marcel did not reveal anything that he has not said before. But in Jeffrey's opinion, Marcel's hypnotically recovered testimony supports the claim that the wreckage found on Brazel's range came, not from a flying saucer, but from a top secret Mogul balloon. Also noted in the KTVU story is the fact that Walter Haut, former press officer for the 509th Bomb Wing at Roswell AAF who issued the famous July 8, 1947 press release claiming recovery of a flying disc, now says he had learned a few days after the announcement that "it was a screwup." Though widely quoted in recent years as believing an unusual craft had been recovered, the FOX news story showed Haut saying he thinks it was just a balloon. Haut was one of the original founders of the International UFO Museum in Roswell, New Mexico, but has now cut all ties with the museum. Current museum director Deon Crosby told CNI News that Haut has referred to the UFO claims as "just a bunch of hooey." However, other researchers point out that Haut never claimed any direct access to wreckage or other evidence of the crash and was only following orders when he wrote the "flying disk" press release. Marcel, on the other hand, did see something real from the crash, and despite Kent Jeffrey's apparent change of heart, Marcel himself still thinks there was more to Roswell than a balloon. Reached by phone on April 29, Marcel told CNI News, "The [hypnosis] session was interesting, but it sure didn't change my mind. My recollections are the same." Marcel said he is aware of several clear discrepancies between the material he saw as a child and the material said to come from the Mogul balloon. "I was just going over some pictures of the Mogul balloon device and trying to fit that into the pattern of the debris I saw," he told CNI News. Referring to controversial embossed symbols on a small "I-beam," which researcher Karl Pflock identified as coming from a kind of adhesive tape used in Mogul, Marcel stated: "The figures that they used were on cellophane tape, which is about an inch wide. This is far larger than what I saw." Marcel also commented on the strange symbols. "I looked at some of the drawings of the letters and flower-like images [from the Mogul tape] and I just don't recall anything close to that." What he saw "wasn't flower-like, it was more geometric designs," he said. In the Mogul explanation, the "I-beam" itself is described as stick of balsawood. But Marcel says that's not what he saw and handled in 1947. "It was very light, like balsawood, but I recall metal, not wood. I've built a lot of model airplanes out of balsawood, and I think I would recognize the difference. I'm going to stick to my memory. I remember these beams as metal and not balsawood." He also noted that "the foil they used on the [Mogul] radar target was paper-backed foil, and the foil I saw was not paper-backed." Marcel told CNI News that he considers Kent Jeffrey a close friend, and he's not sure why Jeffrey has now done a "180-degree turnaround" on Roswell. Regardless, Marcel still thinks the debris he saw was stranger than anything from a Mogul balloon. ==+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++== -- *----------------------------* |............................| |... legion@werple.net.au ...| |............................| *----------------------------*
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 2 Re: New Info on Black Helicopters... From: HTSK59A@prodigy.com (MR COY E MICHAEL) Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 23:31:24, -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 01:27:01 -0400 Subject: Re: New Info on Black Helicopters... >Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 01:51:06 -0500 >To: skywatch@mail.phoenix.net >From: MWayne@bigfoot.com (Michael Malone) >Subject: New Info on Black Helicopters... > This brings up many questions. Was it four differant flights of >helicopters? I'm assuming that the first noise I heard was helicopters >instead of a plane. Was it the same flight 4 times? Why are military >aircraft flying over populated Huntsville (and within the >Huntsville-Madison County International Airport) without proper lighting? >The Aviation Command has NOT moved to Huntsville YET, so why are there >attack helicopters, and possibly a STEALTH (The Comanch is stealth, for >those unaware.) helicopter flying lightless over Huntsville? The Huntsville Times, May 1, 1997 ,page B2, reads in part, "The helicopters that folks here have been hearing aren't those choppers that right-wing fanatics say will be part of a U.N. invasion. The Redstone Arsenal airfield has served as a staging base for a two-day exercise by the 101st Battalion from Fort Campbell, Ky"....."Aabout 36 helicopters and 150 soldiers participated in a practice attack on Fort McClelland near Anniston" Coy Michael Search for other documents from or mentioning: htsk59a | skywatch |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 2 Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen From: MAC TONNIES <0212104@ACAD.NWMISSOURI.EDU> Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 23:37:50 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 01:33:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen Vince Johnson wrote: >From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com >Date: Thu, 01 May 97 14:49:34 cst >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen >I have no idea what sort of outside force could cause one to become a >guru to a UFO cult. If one accepts that the United States was secretly aware of the reality of genuine UFOs in the 1950s, then supporting the efforts of a lunatic fringe con-man like Adamski would help ensure the comfortable public opinion that "UFOs are nonsense." This may have happened with Adamski. I've read some intriguing things about his ability to aquire visas for his international UFO lectures...perhaps he was operating as a dupe for U.S. counterintelligence. Similarly, Meier might have received from help from informed governmental sources in order to help further UFOs' place in society one of mythology and delusion. Or, of course, both of these men could simply be naturally charismatic charlatans. I've read nothing that's convinced me that either has had any genuine extraterrestrial experiences. **************************************************************** Mac Tonnies * #415 Franken Hall, NWMSU * Maryville, MO 64468 (816) 562-6488 * E-mail: 0212104@acad.nwmissouri.edu Web: www.nwmissouri.edu/~0212104/apu.html "Today's Abstractions are Tomorrow's Archetypes" **************************************************************** Search for other documents from or mentioning: 0212104 |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 2 Ted Phillips at Ozark UFO Conference From: bikebob <bikebob@MO.NET> Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 23:49:14 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 01:34:33 -0400 Subject: Ted Phillips at Ozark UFO Conference I grant permission to any/all to freely distribute the following copyrighted (by me, Bob Soetebier) article under these terms: (a) The copyright statement and proper attribution must remain attached to article; (b) The article must be reproduced in it's entirety...unedited; (c) Any distribution (whether electronically, or in hardcopy format) of the article is to be done so without charge. (The article may not be reproduced commercially without prior written permission from me.) Bob Soetebier St. Louis County, Missouri ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ted Phillips Highlights Missouri UFOs at Recent Ozark UFO Conference Copyright 1997, by Bob Soetebier On Saturday evening, April 12, 1997, the featured speaker at the Ninth Annual Ozark UFO Conference in Eureka Springs, Arkansas, was Ted Phillips. The title of his presentation was "Landing Case Histories, A 'Spook Light' and Reminiscences in Ufology." Ted Phillips has archived well over 5000 "land-trace" cases. During his talk Phillips said he had personally investigated 600 of these cases and also personally talked to thousands of witnesses involved with such cases. Ted noted that from his experience investigating these incidents -- and from general correlations from the vast majority of such cases -- the physical parameters of the UFOs (reportedly sighted in direct relation to the physical-trace sites) usually fall into one of the three following categories: (a) Eight- to ten-foot in diameter donut-shaped disk; usually hovers just off the ground (rarely "touching down"); apparently not infrequently leaving a circular ring-trace of either, and/or, burned grass and/or hardened soil that typically will then not absorb any moisture. (b) Twenty- to thirty-foot in diameter disks with 3 landing legs. (c) Oval-shaped craft with with 4 legs -- such as the April, 1964, Socorro, New Mexico case involving patrolman Lonnie Zamora. (In response to my later public question, Ted Phillips classed the Zamora case as the most impressive one he had investigated along with his best friend, J. Allen Hynek, who was famous for his role as the chief field investigator for the U.S. Air Force's [now-defunct] "Project Blue Book.") The bulk of modern-day purported UFO-related case now receiving media attention, according to Phillips, seem to involve so-called "abductees" or "experiencers." He also noted an apparent shift from the classic disk-shaped craft to triangular or wedge-shaped craft. During his 1 1/2-hour slide presentation, Phillips featured, among other cases, a 1967 Tuscumbia, Missouri case. This case appears to be one of those "exceptions to the rule" as far as the "3 or 4 legs" landing pods is concerned. A 64-year-old farmer by the name of Claude Edwards was about to feed his cows when he noticed that the cows were all faced the same direction toward a field behind a double fence row. Farmer Edwards reported that what held the cows the attention was a 20-plus feet in diameter greenish-grey disk that was supported off the ground by a singular central shaft-like pedestal. Edwards said he climbed over both fences and noticed small beings (also greenish-grey in color) around the craft. Upon his approach these beings seemed to disappear into the craft. As he got closer to the craft Edwards reported running into some sort of impenetrable invisible force field 15 feet out from the craft. He then picked up a couple of good-sized rocks. He threw the first rock at the craft. It was repelled by the invisible shield. Edwards then threw the second rock on top of the craft and said it skipped off of, and over, the same invisible force-field shield. Needless to say, after being more or less caught between a rock and a persistent hard-case farmer, the UFO was said to have made a hasty retreat. Left behind was the incredulous farmer and a ground impression of that central shaft-like pedestal (with the resultant classic physical-trace characteristics mentioned previously.) Today, Ted Phillips still actively investigates the occasional (but now, more rarely reported) landing-trace case. Currently, his main investigative thrust has been documenting the long-standing (regularly -- almost nightly -- reported since 1800s; right up to present-day) "Joplin 'Spook Light'" just a couple of miles south of the tri-state Missouri, Kansas and Oklahoma border. [John Carpenter -- of Springfield, MO -- has recently produced a 90-minute video on the "Joplin 'Spook Light'" documenting Ted Phillips investigations of this intriguing enigma.] As Ted says: "The Joplin 'Spook Light' is furnace-bright. Whatever it is, it most definitely is NOT distant car headlights!"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 2 Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 00:25:38 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 01:32:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen >From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com >Date: Thu, 01 May 97 14:49:34 cst >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen >>Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:22:12 -0400 (EDT) >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen >>In my opinion You assume to much. First of all, we are at >>the mercy of the scientitic community as to what information >>is made available to us. Even if we assume that they have >>shared credible information with us, which in many cases is >>highly unlikely, that does no preclude the existence of >>Intelligent or human life forms on The Plane Venus, or any >>other planet for that matter. >Are you really making the case that it is more likely that Meier >and Adamski were telling the truth, and that the world-wide >scientific establishment is engaged in a deliberate coverup >regarding conditions on Venus? I'm not making a case for anything. Anything I could say would would be pure speculation. I am not an abductee nor a contactee. I have only seen one thing which I would say was not a "normal" terrestrial creation...and that occurred back in 1967. >As I've pointed out already, that would typify the reaction of a >True Believer when his "faith" is challenged by scientific fact. >Why do you have such a strong emotional investment in these two >men's tales? If Meier and Adamski were proved to be nuts and/or >con-men, how would that affect the overall reality of the UFO >phenomenon? I don't have an "emotional investiment." It's no skin off of my nose whether or not a person knows whether the Meier and Adamski cases fact or fiction. You have chosen to assume that the two men are frauds, at least that is how I interpret your messages. You seem to be worried more about them than you need to. I wonder if you were alive when Adamski was allegedly having his contacts? If so, did you make any attempt to contact Adamski personally? What energy have you expended to "prove" your contentions? The same questions can be asked of your remarkes about Meier. Have you tried to contact Meier or those at his farm? I see that members of that "group???," including one who claims to be Billy Meier has been posting in the Updates lately. ARe you going to answer those claims, and call Mr. Meier a demented person? A Hoaxer? A conman? If not, why not. You have the perfect opportunity to ask the man himself and he will reply to you. So, Vince take it to Meier! Quit bantering with me. It's a waste of time. I have no objection tot the "scientific fact." But, how do I verify that much of what science tells us of things beyond our reach is "fact?" In fact, if you had read my message to the List a week or so ago, you would have seen that I encouraged us to "act responsibly." In fact, only one person responded to that message. So, I don't feel I have to justify my position on the "scientific" verification of this phenomenia. >Are you saying that con-men and crackpots don't exist, or that >you find Adamski's and Meier's accounts believable? Need I answer this question, Vince? I will only say, that I was not there...I don't have any special insight, pro or con, into these cases. I am not in a position to "judge" their motives. I will not make slanderous remarks against the character of these people. You may do as you please. >>We are constantly entertaining the idea that Aliens could >>possibly be dimensional beings transcending time and space as we >>know it. But all of a sudden we want to disgard that idea when it >>comes to Alien life forms on any of the near by planets in this >>system. >>Why is that? How do you know that, just because the three dimensional >>planets atmospheric temps is around 900 deg. with no known water >>present, that in a multi-dimensional world, that would hold true >>for venus? How about Mars? Jupiter? Saturn? Uranus? Neptune? >>Mercury and Pluto? >Anything is possible. However, we should not be blind to the >possibility that some people just make stuff up for attention or >monetary gain. I don't doubt that at all, Vince...the question is: Which people? Speaking of "wanting attention".... I am ready to let this drop. I don't need the attention...in fact, I rather like being low keyed. >>>You seem to be ignoring the possibility that these guys, Adamski >>>and Meier, deliberately made this stuff up (lied). Naturally, >>>neither was in possession of information concerning the weather >>>on Venus -- which, if you accept their stories at face value, >>>they should have known before Carl Sagan. >>Just as you are ignoring the possibility that they >>actually had an experience which was at the core of their >>claims. You make a lot of assumptions, Vince. Just >>because you orI or anyone else has not "seen" the information you >>are alluding to, does not mean it does not or did not exist now or >>in the past. This whole conversation is a waste of time...from >>both positions. Yet, I maintain that: "there is more under heaven >>and earth than your philosophy has drempt of...." Vince. <g> >I'm not ignoring the possibility that these guys may have had a >"core" experience. As you say, anything is possible. It's the >"probable" that I find to be more useful. In my opinion, Meier and >Adamski "probably" are nuts and/or con-men. What do you find to be >"probable" in these cases? Here you go JUDGING again. What qualifications do you have which justifies your OPINION? "Probably," huh? Don't know for sure? If I told you my reasons, you would simply make me the target of your campaign to belittle and humiliate. >>>Either they made these stories up or the Cosmic Space Brothers >>>lied to them. Which do you think is more likely? >>There is another alternative. The stories were origionally >>TRUE, but, due to interference from "outside" forces, there was >>no way to prove the truth of them. >You'll have to explain this statement. I have no idea what sort >of outside force could cause one to become a guru to a UFO cult. I don't know why you act as if you have no idea of what I am talking about. You know as well as I, that many people who have claimed to have experiences with this phenomena, report that they have been approached by people passing themselves off as "government, or Air Force," representatives. These people claim that they were intimidated and in many cases threatened with dire consequences. Why would Adamski and Meier be any different if there was anything to their stories. If you will check back, you will see that Adamski did indeed claim that he received threats from time to time. I also know that Meier has had attempts on his life on several occasions. Why is everything always a CULT, Vince? A cult is defined as a "religious group." I see nothing to indicate that either Meier or Adamski established "religious groups." >>You are dealing strictly from the bottom of the deck, Vince. >>Try shuffling the cards; deal them out, and see what they >>show. You know, Vince, I am not a believer in UFOs or >>Contactees, or abductees. I have a healthy skepticism, which >>helps me to maintain a balanced prespective. How about you? This >>attitude of belittle- ment is more the tool of the CYNIC than the >>skeptic. WE all should be skeptical, it is healthy. It prevents >>gulability. >You seem to be taking me to task for my skepticism. I personally >don't equate skepticism about far-fetched claims with >"belittlement." If the truth or reason belittles, perhaps that >should tell you something. I don't mind that you are skeptical...but, to me, your skepticism goes way beyond what is normal for skepticism...you virge on Cynicism. You obviously have very little consideration for other peoples opinions or experiences. You don't evern seem to give them the benefit of the doubt. All you have to do is take a "wait and see," attitude. Time will eventually prove or disprove these cases. >>>Do the Cosmic Space Brothers only want the gullible to believe in >>>their presence and to follow their "teachings"? Hmmm, sounds like >>>religion to me. >>Maybe a good dose of "religion," would do you some good Vince. >>You show signs of Athiesm. Of course that is just my opinion. >>People "NEED" SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN. Such belief helps them >>maintain a balanced prespective in a chaotic world. >>Some day, Vince, you might ask for "teachings." Who knows? <g> >Which religion did you have in mind, Michael? I personally have >never had the need to believe in "Something." There's a heckuva gap >between "believing" and "knowing" and I'd much rather aspire to >"knowing." I do not voice an opinion as to what "religion" a preson should seek out. That is up to them. I also don't ascribe to "believing" something when it is possible to "know." What is your method of "knowing" that Meier and Adamski are fakers? How do you define Knowledge, Vince? Please tell me. >>>Nope, all we get are aphorisms and platitudes. Shouldn't that >>>tell you something? If not, I've got a sample of "alien metal" >>>I'd be willing to sell you. >>One of the "greatest" teachers in the history of mankind attracted >>people to himself by using aphorisms, platitudes, and parables. >>He may not hve attracted you, Vince, but he has attracted millions >>over a period of nearly 2000 years, world wide...Are you that >>popular? >Is this supposed to be a "popularity" thing? So, you answer my questions with misdirection do you? Forget it Vince. You have just answered it. :-( >If in any of those aphorisms, platitudes and parables had contained a >single tidbit of previously unknown but currently verifiable >scientific data (the same criteria I've expressed for alleged "alien" >data, I might be forced to take them seriously. But as with Meier's >"Semjase" and Adamski's "Venusean" teachings, all we got is fluff. Is that so. ON what do you base your statments. Again, have youj tried to talke to Meier? Have you discussed this with anyone besides Kal Korff? If you like Korff, you will LOVE William "Bill" Moore. Personally, I have very little respect for the latter. To this point, I do still have respect for you. Let's keep it that way. REgards, Mike
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 2 Retrun to the Joplin/Hornet 'Spook Light' From: bikebob <bikebob@MO.NET> Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 23:53:56 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 01:36:36 -0400 Subject: Retrun to the Joplin/Hornet 'Spook Light' I grant permission to any/all to freely distribute the following copyrighted (by me, Bob Soetebier) article under these terms: (a) The copyright statement and proper attribution must remain attached to article; (b) The article must be reproduced in it's entirety...unedited; (c) Any distribution (whether electronically, or in hardcopy format) of the article is to be done so without charge. (The article may not be reproduced commercially without prior written permission from me.) Bob Soetebier St. Louis County, Missouri [P.S.: In regards to the appended note about the "Joplin 'Spook Light'" video which follows this article, I would just like to make it clear to one and all that I have NO financial stake whatsoever in this video. I did purchase a copy myself and thought you all might also find it of as much interest as I did.] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Return To The "Joplin 'Spook Light'" Copyright 1997, by Bob Soetebier On Sunday, April 13, 1997, my wife and I made a return visit to check out the site of the so-called "Joplin [aka: Hornet] 'Spook Light'" [JSL]. On this, our second visit to the location, with a perfectly clear sky, we were able to observe the JSL for almost two full hours. It was back in early April 1993 at the Sixth Annual Ozark UFO Conference in Eureka Springs, Arkansas, that we first learned of the existence of the long-standing JSL. Ted Phillips -- famous for his many years of UFO physical-trace case investigations (both on his own, and in the company of his best friend, astronomer J. Allen Hynek who was the chief field investigator for the U.S. Air Force's "Project Blue Book") -- was one of the featured speakers at that conference. He spoke of his investigations of the JSL. After the 1993 conference, my wife and I drove to the JSL site. At that time we spoke to a few of the local area residents in the vicinity of the site. Each of them recounted personally seeing the JSL on more than one occasion. A few of them even stated that they had had very close (within just a few feet) encounters with the JSL at, or near, the popular viewing site. At that time my wife and I did not witness the JSL. This is probably due to the fact that we arrived at the site at during bright daylight at 3:30pm and left the vicinity at 4:15pm to return to St. Louis. Ted Phillips again was a featured speaker this year at Ninth Annual Ozark UFO Conference in Eureka Springs, AR. Upon my invitation, and just prior to Phillip's conference presentation, Ted and his wife Ginger had dinner with my wife and I and some of our other friends. At that time, Ted made it absolutely clear that as a result of his 30 years of investigating, observing and photographing the JSL -- with a 35mm camera, telescope, videotape, a CCD [Charged Couple Device] and subsequent computer enhancement -- that, contrary to others' claims, there was absolutely NO way that the JSL was the result of distant headlights! He noted that the JSL was "furnace-bright," and that the more detailed photos exhibit multiple lights of varying shape, color and intensity, and that they make all sorts of strange and unexplainable movements. Phillips is convinced that the light is non-natural. He also noted that from his analysis of the light's intensity it is brighter than that of the planet Venus (which is second only to the Moon and Sun in our skies.) He said that at that intensity of brightness that there is no way that any sort of man-made object could be the responsible source of light...it's just way too bright! From our own personal observations on this latest trip to the JSL site, I certainly agree with Ted's analysis. Ted reassured us -- again, from his 30 years of experience in investigating the JSL -- that on any given night we would have a 90% to 95% chance of seeing the distantly-sighted JSL. He also made note of the fact that he has observed the JSL in literally almost every type of atmospheric condition, including rain and freezing drizzle. Phillips said that he has only not seen the JSL on three visits to the JSL site during those 30 years. He also emphasized that while he personally has only seen the JSL from a distance, he does have a life-long friend (whose word he said he trusts) who has told him that he actually had the JSL show up INSIDE his parked car while he was outside of it! This year we arrived at the JSL viewing site at 7:00pm. Since it was still daylight, we decided to drive down "Spook Light" road from its eastern-most intersection with Stateline Road. We drove 3-1/2 miles on the arrow-straight portion of the gravel road and turned around at the western-most point where the road makes a curve to the south and headed back. Because of the poor condition of the road (it's an undulating gravel road full of innumerable potholes) it took us a full 40 minutes for the drive down-and-back. Upon our return, at 7:40pm, to the viewing point (between 1/4 and 1/2 mile west of north-south Stateline Road) on the gravel road, we found our friend Beverly Trout (Iowa MUFON State Director) in the company of three of her friends already parked and waiting for us on the side of the road. Right after we turned around and parked, a couple more of our friends (from the St. Louis and Columbia, MO, areas) pulled up and parked right behind us. At precisely 7:45pm "the show" began with a vengence! It was just at dusk at this time when the light flared up...way down, and just above, the undulating road in the "V-notch" formed by the trees along the side of the road. From that point on, and right up until 9:35pm when we finally decided leave (it had gotten down to almost freezing -- and so were we! -- by that time), the light was visible almost the entire time. Occasionally it would "dim out" for a period of anywhere from 5 to 15 seconds, or so. But, most of the time it would be visible for minutes at a time. During 95% of the time when the JSL was visible, there would usually be at least one major or primary light that would vary in intensity. That particular light would frequently flare up and even move around, either up and down or slightly to the sides. At times the movements of this primary light were dramatic. That is they would be very quick and cover a short relative distance...never moving very far, though. At other times, this primary light would be accompanied by numerous (up to 6 or seven additional), but smaller, lights. These lights appeared on both sides of the main light, but usually above it, while still to one side or the other. Sometimes three of these smaller lights would also line up in a 45-degree diagonal line on the right side of the main light. Typically, various of these smaller lights would wink on and off, and/or disappear completely, only to reappear in an altogether different position. At varying times I saw some of these lights give off different colored hues. These colors ranged from white to yellow to red to green to blue. This was mostly best observed with binoculars. But, these various colors were sometimes even visible with the unaided eye, too. While we did not have a "close encounter" with the JSL, it was a spectacular show nonetheless. I would definitely recommend others consider checking it out whenever they are in the Joplin, Missouri, area (near the tri-state border with Kansas and Oklahoma.) I would urge caution, though, at any time when visiting the site. For a couple of very good reasons I would particularly not recommend visiting the popular viewing site on either a Friday or Saturday evening. Due to unfortunate incidents of vandalism (cut fences, etc.) and littering (beer cans and bottles by the score by line the side of the road) the local-area residents have understandably instigated a "Neighborhood Watch" program. They have also prevailed upon the local police to enforce the anti-loitering law. Now, having said that, I should note that during the two-hour period that we were parked along the gravel road we only had a couple of cars pass by us. No one else showed up nor stopped to bother/question us. It was just us and our half-dozen friends at the viewing site on that particular Sunday evening. (Who knows...maybe we were just lucky that we were left alone and that no one stopped to question our protracted parked presence?) Keeping the above-mentioned cautionary information in mind, the best way to get to the JSL viewing site is to take Hwy. 43 for approximately 6 miles s.s.w. from I-44 in the Joplin, MO, area. About 4 miles n.n.e. of Seneca, MO, Hwy. BB goes east from Hwy. 43. At this intersection of Hwy. 43 and Hwy. BB, turn west on a paved county road and go 2-1/2 miles to the head of the "T-intersection" with the now-paved Stateline Road. Turn north/right on Stateline Road and go 1-1/4 miles. At this interesection, turn west on the gravel road on your left. If you arrive near, or after, dusk you won't have to drive too far down this gravel road for a good view. I guarantee that when you see the JSL it will be a memorable experience. Good luck, and hopefully, happy viewing. --------------------------------------------------------------------- [NOTE: "The Light at the End of the Road...The Joplin Spook Light" is a brand new 90-minute video release. It is a John Carpenter production of long-time UFO researcher Ted Phillips' 30 years of study of this long-standing ("documented sightings from the 1800's") anomalous light. The video includes Phillip's telescopic, CCD camera, videotape and 35mm camera photo-documentation of the "Spook Light," and much more. It is available for $29.95 plus $3.00 shipping from: Carpenter Research, 4033 S. Belvedere, Springfield, MO 65807.]
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 2 Information on MIB Needed From: plandry1@netcom.ca Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 09:20:20 -0400 Subject: Information on MIB Needed Hello everyone; I am doing research on Men in Black and I was woundering if anybody had any info they would like to pass on, or if aomeone could direct me where I can find good reliable information. I would truly appreciate it. Please e mail me at plandry1@netcom.ca Thank-you Diane Landry "the truth is out there" http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/6107 mailto:di@geocities.com Bryan's Paranormal and the Unknown http://www.psn.net./-bryan/Bryan.htm<;/color> mailto:<bryan@psn.net>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 2 Korff's New Book on Roswell From: Pamela7@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:32:50 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 08:25:32 -0400 Subject: Korff's New Book on Roswell Hi there, I am new to this internet stuff and finally decided to write in to this service. I want to make you all aware of a new book out by Kal Korff called "The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want You to Know." I was so moved after reading this book that I feel as if I must share its contents with everyone. Frankly, I expected from Korff yet another Roswell book that really did not answer questions or settle any issues definitively, but this is not the case. In fact, after reading now every other book on Roswell ever published, I nominate Mr. Korff's book by far as "the best," hands down! Korff includes all kinds of new data and evidence that he demonstrates has been ignored by most UFO researchers. This information even surprised me, and I have read everything there is about Roswell. Korff also includes some photos that have never been printed in any of the other Roswell UFO books that have been commercially available and his expose of the Roswell case is airtight and thorough. He also proves that there was for sure a government coverup, and the book has something in it for everyone. Korff's book is not nearly as long as his previous one on Silly Meier, and it does not include as many pictures. It only has 24. The photos speak for themselves, though, especially the alien autopsy stills and the photo of the cameraman. I suppose that maybe I am going to be criticized for my opinion, but as a newcomer to this field I am sometimes ashamed to see the exchanges that take place between the various UFO researchers. I now know why, I think, that UFOs remain such an engima because its investigators are to busy sniping at one another. I am embarrassed to have purchased, for example, Michael Hesemann and Phil Mantle's book on Roswell. Korff not only convincingly disproves their claims in his book, but having independently checked Hesemann's claims for myself now, he is not telling the truth I am afraid. On a similar note, Mr. Stanton Friedman and the terrible weaknesses in his claims are also exposed by Korff and there is new information on how unreliable the major Jesse Marcel was because you see his performance reports printed in Korff's book which show he was reprimanded for blowing Roswell out of proportion. I think the Fat Lady has begun to sing in Roswell and if any of you care about the UFO field, you will buy Korff's new book. I now understand that Mr. Korff is not a skeptic but does seek to improve the UFO field by helping clear out the bunk cases from the ones that might be real. I know his book is going to get a lot of exposure (I have seen some of it already) and it is a relief for me to finally read a book about Roswell that has information in it that I can verify for a change. There is nothing like facts, and as Korff demonstrates after investigating Roswell for 16 years (much longer than Hesemann) he has finally found the truth. Korff also grew up with Friedman and Bill Moore as a kid and he presents a lot of new information on them as well which puts them in their proper perspective. The last chapter in Korff's book is the one everyone should read, and take to heart. He pleads very emotionally for the severe need to think critically and objectively and scientifically in this field and he makes an airtight case for doing so. Other than this, his chapter five nails down what Roswell really was, and these new photos and engineering drawings (previously classified) close the case. I think I understand now why Mr. Heseman dislikes Korff, if I were him I would be embarrassed as well. But Hesemann has no reason to dislike Korff for doing a competent job. Hesemann instead should look himself in the mirror and blame himself for continuing to blow it on two very important cases: Mr. Meier's and now Roswell. Kal Korff's book proves that Justice does triumph after all. I hope all of you will spare me any flames and go get Korff's book and take your emotional issues you may have up with the author. I am simply passing on my opinion, and I went down to Roswell to check all of this. I believe in UFOs and now, thanks to Kal Korff, my understanding of at least two of the cases is clear. I will never buy or read anything Mr. Hesemann and Mantle ever publish again. Kal Korff's book is 265 pages and is hardcover and I have seen it in the major bookstores everywhere. His book is tightly written and concise and the ISBN number for ordering it from anywhere is, according to the book, 1-57392-127-0. I really think you will like it as it even exposes Colonel Corso's claims. Sorry for being perceived as negative, but I am really not. Pamela7 (Pam Rawlins).
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 2 Re: New Mars Face? From: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de (Joachim Koch) Date: 01 May 97 14:32:00 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 09:33:59 -0400 Subject: Re: New Mars Face? >Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 15:03:33 -0500 (CDT) >From: MAC TONNIES <0212104@ACAD.NWMISSOURI.EDU> >To: updates@GLOBALSERVE.NET >Subject: Re. New Mars Face? >My opinion, after studying the Viking imagery, is that the >now-infamous Martian "structures" were built using already >existing landforms and "modifying" them. In this sense, ETI >critics who proclaim that the Cydonia face is "merely a mesa" >are partially correct. A very old culture right here on Earth did the same about six to eight thousand years (or older) ago: The Minoans in Crete. Crete is said to be a very powerful and important place here on this planet. Once you have been there, not on the northern coast with a suit case in hand but with a rucksack on your back in the inner parts of the isle and at the southern coast, you will ever come back. The energy there is tremendous. And don't forget, an artifact was found there which nearly is unique in human history: the Discos of Phaistos. I know a man who is living there, who has become part of this island: Fritz Kuroso, a German. He is highly estimated by the locals. He was the only one so far who challenged the common interpreters with their odd "solutions" of this enigmatic artifact. He is an expert in old Minoan "language" and "scripts" and has resolved the riddle of the Discos: it cleraly contains links to space, planets and those who come from outward... The planet Earth has number seven on this disk - as counted from outward towards the sun. Blessings Joachim Koch FIDO: 2:2410/704.20 Internet: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de or: JKoch1@compuserve.com *Homepage of The International Roswell Initiative, Germany:* http://ourworld.compuserve.com/Homepages/JKoch1
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 2 AUFORA: CSETI & Project Starlight From: David Watanabe <davew@aufora.org> Date: Thu, 1 May 97 18:55:55 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 09:31:45 -0400 Subject: AUFORA: CSETI & Project Starlight AUFORA News Update Thursday, May 1st, 1997 http://www.aufora.org/ _______________________ In the interest of maintaining open discussion: from Joseph Burkes MD: I was somewhat dismayed to read your commentary about the Project Starlight briefings in Washington DC. It appeared from your remarks that you based your opinions on the extremely abbreviated and superficial article which appeared in the Ft. Worth Star Telegram. I can assure you the information provided by the Telegram was out of context. Given the clear bias of the news media, which in my opinion has worked to further marginalize this important subject, I find it quite surprising that your negative comments appear heavily influenced by the Telegram piece. I have enjoyed reading many of the science reports in your newsletter and I believe you are trying to provide an important educational service. For this reason I am sharing my reaction to your unfortunate editorial. I find your "shoot from the hip" put downs of CSETI's important work, extremely objectionable. Have you bothered to check out CSETI's web site? Have you read the many documents freely available there which explain in detail what Starlight is about? I suspect not! I attended the Washington briefings as volunteer CSETI staff. I can tell you from direct personal knowledge that over 20 Congressional offices where present at the behind closed door briefings. The group also included representatives from the Executive branch. The audience was so attentive during the presentation that you could practically hear a pin drop. We are spearheading a campaign to establish open Congressional hearings where many additional witnesses can testify with the whole world watching. Instead of taking pot shots at Dr. Greer and the important effort he is leading in Project Starlight, I suggest you learn more about what we are really accomplishing. Assisting this cause instead of attacking it, is well worth your valuable time. It is my hope that after learning more about Project Starlight, you might find reasons to support the push for Congressional hearings. Many within the UFO research community are now doing exactly that. Sincerely yours, Joseph Burkes, MD CSETI Executive Council Member __________________________________________________________ AUFORA News Update News & Information from the world of UFOlogy AUFORA Web: http://www.aufora.org/ AUFORA News: http://www.aufora.org/news/ AUFORA Discussion: http://www.aufora.org/discuss/ ********************************************************** TO SUBSCRIBE: Send email to: majordomo@spots.ab.ca with "subscribe aufora" in the body of the message. TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send email to: majordomo@spots.ab.ca with "unsubscribe aufora" in the body of the message. Subscribe / unsubscribe requests not done following the above instructions will BE IGNORED!!! ********************************************************** Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of AUFORA __________________________________________________________ Distributed by the Alberta UFO Research Association
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 2 Re. New Mars Face? From: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de (Joachim Koch) Date: 02 May 97 00:52:00 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 09:35:27 -0400 Subject: Re. New Mars Face? >Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 09:43:38 +0200 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Alfred Breull <puma@hannover.sgh-net.de> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: New Mars Face? >King Minos (island Crete) lived between 1597-1521 bc, not 6-8 >thousand years ago. Minos is the king with the famous labyrinth/ >maze, which was built by Daidalos (father of Ikarus, who tried to >reach the sun with wax wings). The Daidalos/ Ikarus saga is dated >at 837 bc. > >Alf Yes, My Dear, I know what's written in the books. Have you ever been to Crete? Blessings Viele Gruesse Joachim Internet: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de oder: 106525.1607compuserve.com Homepage der Internationalen Roswell Initiative, Deutschland: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/Homepages/JKoch1
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 2 Re: Questions for Linda Cortile From: Ted MacLeod <tmacleod@gemsoft.com> Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 09:39:41 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 09:47:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Questions for Linda Cortile >From: HONEYBE100@aol.com >Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 03:33:11 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Questions for Linda Cortile >>Date: Wed., 30 Apr 1997 14:42:02 -0400 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Ted MacLeod <tmacleod@gemsoft.com> >>Subject: Questions for Linda Cortile >>Dear Linda Cortile, > >In response to Greg Sandow's recent invitation, I have a few brief >>questions about the psychological impact of the aliens written with >>detail in Budd Hopkin's latest book "Witnessed". What I would like >>to know concerns the after-effects of your experiences rather than >>what the aliens did at the moment of your 'contacts'. [snip] >Dear Ted MacLeod: >How nice to hear from you. I'm happy to answer your questions. Thanks >for giving me the chance to air some of my own opinions and feelings about >my case/experience. [snip] >Thank you, I appreciate your questions. >Linda Cortile - New York City Dear Linda Cortile, Thank you for your unexpectantly speedy answers to my questions and for furthering 'our' understanding of what these alien visitations mean to us as a society. I just want to reply that I greatly empathesize with your feelings of mistrust towards what you had always supposed was "how the world normally was" as well as the resentment towards the intrusions into your life of these unwanted visitors. My only response to your point of view is that I wonder if world opinion would reflect your own when pressed to calmly accept the reality of alien beings and would their first reactions towards these beings, right after the initial shock, be mistrust and resentment also? Would we then want them to go away after not a short while so that we could go on with our 'natural' lives, in an attempt to try and forget our utter helplessness and inferiority in the presence of these beings? I suppose if the aliens were to be intergrated into our society, they would have to give us reassurances that our sense of well-being would not be threatened. There seems to be a few hurdles left to overcome... Again, thank you for your time, Ted MacLeod. --------------- "I pity the FOO!!! - Mr. T Ted MacLeod Computer Animator 12 Shepard St., Ste.500 Toronto, Ontario CANADA M5H 3A1 Email: tmacleod@gemsoft.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 2 Lake Ontario - news.group item, 1993 From: Jennifer Jarvis <jarvis@globalserve.net> Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 09:58:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 10:07:21 -0400 Subject: Lake Ontario - news.group item, 1993 For your information..... From: mz@moscom.com (Matthew Zenkar) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFO base in Lake Ontario? Date: 16 Mar 93 17:20:00 GMT Organization: Moscom Corp., E. Rochester, NY Well, enough about the Edmund Fitzgerald. I live in Rochester, NY about 3 miles from Lake Ontario. I know a local UFO researcher who has told me about several sightings over Lake Ontario. Some of the sightings have occurred near the Ginna Nuclear Power Plant (for those who don't remeber, that is the plant that sprung a leak in a steam generator tube in I believe 1982 and made the national news). Apparently, there have been sightings around one other Nuke plant near Oswego, NY. As to a base, there has been at least one report of a sighting where a UFO was seen coming out of the water in Lake Ontario. But don't get your hopes up. There are no photos or video tapes. Matthew Zenkar mz@moscom.com or mz@crl.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 2 Re: New Info on Black Helicopters.. From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 09:53:02 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 10:09:10 -0400 Subject: Re: New Info on Black Helicopters.. > Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:56:19 +0200 (MET DST) > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: New Info on Black Helicopters.. > >Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 01:51:06 -0500 > >To: skywatch@mail.phoenix.net > >From: MWayne@bigfoot.com (Michael Malone) > >Subject: New Info on Black Helicopters... > > I can not be 100 percent sure, but I am fairly confidant that one > >of the birds was a RAH-66 Comanche. > Hi Michael, > Here is a compilation of reports from Flight Magazine, June 1995, > and Popular Science, November 1996. > First RAH-66 rolled out 25 May 1995 and made maiden flight in > January 1996. > The second prototype is scheduled to begin test flying > September 1998. Six more "early operational capability" RAH-66's will > be delivered after that. The production decision will come (FM June 1995) > in 2004. > So, if this is the truth and the whole truth and if your observation > was correct, you have seen the only RAH-66 around without markings. Regarding the discredited 1989 Carp, Ontario, Canada UFO crash video which was throughly investigated by MUFON Ontario, this same video was examined by a Department of National Defense photo analyst and the UFO was positively identified as an stealth Comanche (RAH-66) helicopter. I was told by this photo analyst that his supervisor who also examined the 1989 Carp video confirmed that it looked like a RAH-66. The analyst told me that it would not be unusal for a prototype helicopter, not yet in military use, to be flown to the Boeing plant located not far from Carp by transport plane (there is a runway at this plant) and test flown in a remote area like Carp. If this 1989 UFO was in fact a stealth RAH-66 attack helicopter, then its first unofficial madien flight was made well before January 1996 and even specialized magazines such as Flight Magazine and Popular Science did not have the whole story on the RAH-66. Nick Balaskas Physics and Astronomy York University
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 2 Skywatch: New Info on Black Helicopters...Response From: "Skywatch Post Only" <skywatch@mail.phoenix.net> Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:20:28 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 10:43:17 -0400 Subject: Skywatch: New Info on Black Helicopters...Response ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 02:39:37 -0700 From: charles campbell <surfwar@worldnet.att.net> Reply-to: surfwar@worldnet.att.net To: skywatch@mail.phoenix.net Subject: Re: Skywatch: New Info on Black Helicopters... SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL Posted: > ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- > Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 01:51:06 -0500 > To: skywatch@mail.phoenix.net > From: MWayne@bigfoot.com (Michael Malone) > Subject: New Info on Black Helicopters... > Cc: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > I know I have been fairly unbelieving in the whole "black > helicopter" issue. I think most of the black helicopters are bunk and > are reported by people who have little understanding of helicopters in > general, the military, or how survallence would be done.... >But tonight I've seen the oddest thing. I'll check when I get in > to work to see if there was any announcements of manuvers in my area, > but this is truly odd. [snip > Thanks, > Michael Malone > -- > Michael Malone > Kilo Foxtrot Four Mike Yankee X-ray For those non believers in black helicopters I would like to relate the following. My last duty assignment in the US Navy was aboard a LHA (helicopter assualt carrier). My first OP with a full flight deck I noticed all choppers were painted such a dark green they looked black. Their markings were all in black so that unless you were right on top of them they were illegible. I asked about why they were marked like this since all choppers I had previously seen were lighter green or gray and well marked. I never received a satisfactory response. Search for other documents from or mentioning: skywatch | surfwar |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 2 Re: PROJECT-1947 - Kent Jeffrey and Roswell From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701@CompuServe.COM> Date: 02 May 97 10:25:41 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 10:38:56 -0400 Subject: Re: PROJECT-1947 - Kent Jeffrey and Roswell >Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:54:27 +1000 >From: John Stepkowski <legion@WERPLE.NET.AU> >Subject: Kent Jeffrey and Roswell >To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM >Hi All; >Among several other worthwhile articles, the latest issue of the always >intriguing CNI News contains an item on Kent Jeffrey, founder of the >International Roswell Initiative. In this 50th Anniversary year of the >"Roswell Incident", it's sure to be of interest. > - John [snip] Thanks for posting this John. We had been hearing rumors of this for some time now. My concern is where are the "20,000 petitions" that were to be delivered by the IRI? These documents were to be delivered to congress over 2 years ago. Regardless of Mr. Jeffery's personal views on the Roswell Incident, he entered a contract with all signatories and is legally obligated to follow through on his promise, IMO. Also, would you let an FBI hypnotist put you under? <G> Terry Search for other documents from or mentioning: 76016.2701 | legion |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 2 Hot clue on crop circle: High heat was involved From: "Skywatch Post Only" <skywatch@mail.phoenix.net> Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 03:13:15 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 10:43:27 -0400 Subject: Hot clue on crop circle: High heat was involved ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 19:37:42 -0600 (MDT) To: skywatch@phoenix.net From: edwards@rmii.com (TIM EDWARDS) Subject: Archive article Date: Thu, 01 May 97 19:19:24 -0700 From: "Timothy E. Edwards" <edwards@rmii.com> To: edwards@rmii.com Subject: Archive article From: http://www.desnews.com/cgi-bin/libstory?dn97&9704290176 [Deseret News Web Edition] ----------------------------------------------------------- Deseret News Archives, Tuesday, April 29, 1997 Hot clue on crop circle: High heat was involved ----------------------------------------------------------- By Zack Van Eyck, Staff Writer People who want to believe something other than a human prank created a circular pattern in a barley field near Logan last year now have scientific evidence as support. A team of research scientists, including a Salt Lake geologist, has released a report concluding the crop circle was not made by humans using boards, ropes or other techniques. According to tests performed by former University of Michigan biophysicist W.C. Levengood and his associates, creation of the crop design involved the use of high heat, perhaps similar to microwave energy. In recent years, Levengood has advanced the theory that most crop circles are natural phenomena created by swirling waves of heat energy thrust to the Earth's surface from the upper atmosphere. The Logan design, like the majority of grain formations Levengood has analyzed, had all the characteristics of an ``authentic'' crop circle that could have been formed by what Levengood calls a ``plasma vortex.'' Levengood's BLT Research Team found changes in the internal structure of plants from the Logan formation that are consistent with exposure to high heat and commonly found in crop circles. Tests on clay from the soil inside the design, conducted in Salt Lake City by Diane Conrad of Meridian Environmental Co., show the ground also was exposed to a heat source. The crop circle, found Aug. 23 by farmer Gerald Alder, was actually two circles of flattened barley - one 58 feet across and a smaller one measuring 30 feet. The circles were connected by a 258-foot-long row of flattened plants that pointed almost directly at the Logan LDS Temple. Two wing- or handle-like designs were attached to the larger circle. The field is located in the Providence area south of Logan on the southeast corner of 1200 South and U-165, easily accessed from either road. Alder, who leases the field from cousin Seth Alder, recently planted the field and is anticipating a ``normal'' harvest this year - one that won't prompt hundreds of curious onlookers, sheriff's deputies, elementary school classes, UFO researchers and TV camera crews to trample his crop. Some folks drove from out of state last year to see the mysterious configuration of twisted and flattened plants before Alder plowed it under. Alder and his wife, Sandra, still don't know what caused the formation to appear. The Cache County Sheriff's Department is equally puzzled. At one point, the sheriff's department thought hungry gophers might have been responsible. The Alders have yet to receive a copy of the research team's report but are aware of Levengood's hypothesis. ``Everybody has his theories. That's just theirs, I guess,'' Sandra Alder said. ``It was other worlds is what we heard, just to let us know they're out there. Some thought it was cult members doing it. I mean, everybody has his own little theory. ``It was very interesting. I made an album on it, and I took pictures so I'd be able to show my great-grandkids because you don't see that very often.'' Alder said while she and her husband make no claims about the crop circle, they wouldn't be surprised if the design had something to do with UFOs. That's because the Alder family had a UFO sighting of their own in the 1970s while driving through Emigration Canyon late one night. ``It was so huge and so bright. It came down and just hovered over us. It really scared my husband,'' she said. ``It stopped in the middle of the road and, as soon as we stopped, it shot out into the middle of the air.'' Nancy Talbott, a Massachusetts-based field research coordinator and the ``T'' in the BLT Research Team, found that revelation consistent with other crop circle cases. ``It's amazing how many people, farmers who have had these things on their land, eventually come forward with stories like that. Quite a number of them have over the years,'' Talbott said. ``I don't know what to do with (that information). I just make notes of it. Whether it means anything I don't know, but it's very curious.'' Ryan Layton, the Davis County man who collected the samples for Levengood, doesn't have the answers, either. But he suspects crop circles are the product of ``a creative, intelligent life with some type of agenda.'' Talbott said the occurrence of crop circles ``may signal significant alterations in Earth's environment, changes which all of us would be better off understanding than denying. ``There is no question that something highly unusual is taking place and we think it is worthy of scrutiny.'' The Logan design was one of more than 40 such formations reported in the United States last year. Dozens more were recorded in other parts of the world. Talbott said Levengood, who runs Pinelandia Biophysical Laboratory in Grass Lakes, Mich., has worked through the winter to examine a backlog of plant samples sent to him from crop circles around the country - including fields in Ohio, Indiana, South Dakota and Washington state - and from Canada and Europe. Until recently, the phenomenon was relegated primarily to southern England, where it reached its zenith in the early 1990s. Crop circles continue to show up there and around the world, despite the well-publicized admissions of two British hoaxers several years ago. According to Levengood, the idea that a natural phenomenon could create intricate designs like those found in crop circles is not unprecedented. Snowflakes are another example. According to the research report, the stem nodes of plants taken from inside the Logan formation were literally blown open to form what the researchers call ``expulsion cavities,'' an effect they say is unique to crop formations. Expulsion cavities can be reproduced in a lab setting through ``a very rapid rate of heating,'' according to the report. c 1997 Deseret News Publishing Co. [Image]
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 Re: Congratulations Steven Greer & CSETI From: "S. Baldwin" <sblee@stc.net> Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 20:12:24 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 02:34:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Congratulations Steven Greer & CSETI >Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 09:52:18 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Congratulations Steven Greer & CSETI >>Greer seems to have made some impression on a few people. >>To my astonishment he was on the local news (very briefly) here in Atlanta >>speaking about his adventure in Washington. >His "Briefings" weren't mentioned once during the event in the Washington >DC market, which is where you would want to make an impression on the >politicians clusterred here. >has long known how to make an impression on those that forumlate policy, >which is one of the major reasons that so many "informational" commercials >are aired by lobbying groups in the Metro area. I am sorry to say I have very little faith that politicians will take this and run with it. Most of them are only concerned with getting votes and what will please the largest amount of people with the biggest pocketbooks. I was more or less hoping that his efforts would lend a little more credibility to the UFO scene....in other words sort of a "oh, look Made UFO's are being discussed in Washington there must be something to them things- guess Ernie wasn't crazy when he saw that thing in the pasture last week". Something to bring things out in the open a little bit and eliminate some of the "whacko element" still associated with sightings. Perhaps at the same time encourage the public to report their sightings with a little more confidence that what they have seen will be taken seriously. Since I live in the south perhaps I am particularly sensitive to that aspect of it. I had a sighting of something out here and believe me the last people I would go to would be those in authority because of the stigma attached to "seeing a UFO". >>He came across as reasonably level headed and the newscaster although >>unfortunately tying everything in the "x-files" bag, was less than his usual >>normal smirking self when UFO's are mentioned. >I'm glad they gave it some air time, but most stations use it as "filler" >when the news is slow. My guess is that the story will pop up for the next >several weeks, as many stations hold the story back until it's needed. It >may be featured in a number of markets during the weekend, depending on how >many stations Greer/CSETI contacted for interviews. Yes, you are probably right unfortunately, it was not on the "prime time" news but the less watched 10pm. It was just good to see it taken semi seriously here in the South. Ah well, sigh.....maybe next time. Susan
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 02 May 97 12:34:11 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 02:37:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >From: Pamela7@aol.com >Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:32:50 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: NEW ROSWELL BOOK! Pam, >I am embarrassed to have purchased, for example, Michael Hesemann and Phil >Mantle's book on Roswell. Korff not only convincingly disproves their claims >in his book, but having independently checked Hesemann's claims for myself >now, he is not telling the truth I am afraid How did you purchase this book? Interesting, since it has not been published yet!! >Korff's book is not nearly as long as his previous one on Silly Meier, and it >does not include as many pictures. It only has 24. The photos speak for >themselves, though, especially the alien autopsy stills and the photo of the >cameraman. Korff does not have permission to publish photos from the alien autopsy. If he has done so, he can expect to hear from Ray Santilli's lawyers. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 Re: New Info on Black Helicopters... From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 02 May 97 13:37:02 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 02:38:48 -0400 Subject: Re: New Info on Black Helicopters... >From: "Skywatch Post Only" <skywatch@mail.phoenix.net> >Organization: SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL >Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:20:28 -0700 >Subject: Skywatch: New Info on Black Helicopters...Response >For those non believers in black helicopters I would like to relate the >following. My last duty assignment in the US Navy was aboard a >LHA (helicopter assualt carrier). My first OP with a full flight deck I >noticed all choppers were painted such a dark green they looked >black. Their markings were all in black so that unless you were right on >top of them they were illegible. I asked about why they were marked like >this since all choppers I had previously seen were lighter green or gray >and well marked. I never received a satisfactory response. I don't recall if I posted anything here about this or not, but I saw a black, unmarked helicopter in the Valley of Fire state park in Nevada in 1995. This park is due east of "Area 51". This was seen by me and over a dozen others in bright daylight and at VERY close range, since it came roaring down the canyon we were in. This helicopter was BLACK, not dark green, and it had NO marking on it. The head ranger at the park said they come through there all the time buzzing tourists and his rangers, and he is hopping mad about it. But no one he has called to complain to knows anything about this (or won't admit to knowing anything). My guess is that they are using this area east of the Nellis Range for practice runs and pilot training. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 Re: PROJECT-1947 - Kent Jeffrey and Roswell From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 02 May 97 13:37:09 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 02:40:35 -0400 Subject: Re: PROJECT-1947 - Kent Jeffrey and Roswell >Date: 02 May 97 10:25:41 EDT >From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701@CompuServe.COM> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: PROJECT-1947 - Kent Jeffrey and Roswell >My concern is where are the "20,000 petitions" that were to be >delivered by the IRI? These documents were to be delivered to >congress over 2 years ago. Regardless of Mr. Jeffery's personal >views on the Roswell Incident, he entered a contract with all >signatories and is legally obligated to follow through on his >promise, IMO. Had anyone ever heard of Kent Jeffrey prior to the Roswell Initiative? Here's a thought: If you want to debunk something, how about injecting a person into it, have that person use all the buzz words and make himself "Mr whatever". Then when things have built to a peak, have him say, "Oh, sorry, the Air Force was right all along." Dos this shoe fit Kent? I don't know. I've never met the man. We played phone tag with answering machines once for a couple of weeks, but never did talk. So I don't want to accuse him, but I just want people to consider this scenario. Oh, yes. Where the hell are those petitions? Many of us who signed them have not become convinced that the Air Force explanation makes any sense. Yes, Jeffrey has a legal obligation to deliver them, and if his heart is no longer in it, then he should pass the mantle to someone who is still willing to fight. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 NICAP and/or APRO files on Web? From: DianeOmega@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 14:15:22 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 02:42:09 -0400 Subject: NICAP and/or APRO files on Web? Hello, all! Do any of you know if there are NICAP and/or APRO files available on the Web? I'm interested, not in the 3 or 4 high-profile cases, but in flaps, mini-flaps, or sightings that may have occurred in the early '50's. Thank you, Dianne Cameron DianeOmega@aol.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 Re: PROJECT-1947 - Kent Jeffrey and Roswell From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 19:53:19 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 03:04:53 -0400 Subject: Re: PROJECT-1947 - Kent Jeffrey and Roswell > Date: 02 May 97 10:25:41 EDT > From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701@CompuServe.COM> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: PROJECT-1947 - Kent Jeffrey and Roswell > Also, would you let an FBI hypnotist put you under? <G> > Terry Interesting question? Perhaps the answer will become apparent if you ask yourself about these issues: Did the person serve in the military? If not on active duty might they be a reservist or subject to recall under special conditions, i.e., military doctor? Might they ever had a security clearance? Does the person expect to receive a military pension? Are they involved in activities which some might see as controversial? Think about it? Gary
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 Re: New Mars Face? From: Alfred Breull <puma@hannover.sgh-net.de> Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:30:46 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 02:44:00 -0400 Subject: Re: New Mars Face? >From: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de (Joachim Koch) >Date: 02 May 97 00:52:00 +0000 >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: New Mars Face? >Organization: Welt am Draht >To: updates@globalserve.net >>Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 09:43:38 +0200 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Alfred Breull <puma@hannover.sgh-net.de> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: New Mars Face? >>King Minos (island Crete) lived between 1597-1521 bc, not 6-8 >>thousand years ago. Minos is the king with the famous labyrinth/ >>maze, which was built by Daidalos (father of Ikarus, who tried to >>reach the sun with wax wings). The Daidalos/ Ikarus saga is dated >>at 837 bc. >>Alf >Yes, My Dear, I know what's written in the books. Have you ever been =20 >to Crete? >Blessings >Viele Gruesse >Joachim Do you mean during spring, when sudden snow fall cuts off the little villages in the mountains, and the cows are fed by airoplanes? Or do you mean in late summer, when sudden rain changes the island into an ocean of blossoms, or during winter, when you can walk around in T-shirts, because it's almost 20 degrees C? strictly 4 u: Sch=F6ne Gr=FCsse auch an Dich, Alf
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 DISPATCH #50 -- the weekly newsletter of ParaScope From: ParaScope@AOL.COM Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:40:48 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 03:17:40 -0400 Subject: DISPATCH #50 -- the weekly newsletter of ParaScope DISPATCH #50 -- the weekly newsletter of ParaScope S O M E T H I N G S T R A N G E I S H A P P E N I N G 5/3/97 Quote of the Week "They are in position to go in and execute the arrest warrants, and I am convinced that will mean the death of some or all of the people inside....I am pleading with Gov. Bush for mercy, to give us a little more time, just a little more time." --Attorney Terence O'Rourke, voicing his fears that state and federal authorities are anxious to use deadly force against former Republic of Texas Ambassador Richard McLaren and 11 others in Fort Davis, Texas. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Rant of the Week: I Should Not Have to Delete You Every week we pick the wackiest, scariest, nastiest or funniest rant from the hundreds of letters received by us here at ParaScope headquarters, and present it to you as our Rant of the Week. This week, a disgruntled Dispatch subscriber begs for mercy. Enjoy! "Please I subscribed to your strange and psycho publication by mistake. I now realize you are a real bunch of wacko's, in need of psychiatric treatment or some other method of restoring your contact with reality.. Please drop me off your distribution list. I should not have to delete you." [Reprinted with spelling and grammar goofs unchanged. Names changed to protect the ranters.] -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Take Control! Subscribe to the CTRL Mailing List Dispatch readers will be pleased to hear of yet another mailing list they can join! The Conspiracy Theory Research List (CTRL) has just been launched, and you're invited to join the party. If you enjoy discussing theories, exchanging information and debating ideas about all aspects of conspiracies, both confirmed and theoretical, CTRL is for you. The list is, of course, free, and if your brain can't take the strain, you can always back out later. C'mon, you've got nothing to lose but your chains. To subscribe to CTRL, send e-mail to listserv@listserv.aol.com with the following in the body of your letter: SUBSCRIBE CTRL JANE SCHMOE (where "JANE SCHMOE" is your name or alias) -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Do You a) Like b) Love or c) Don't Care About the New ParaPoll? No matter what your opinion, you can now voice it online and see the instant results of what you and other poll-takers believe. We are thrilled to announce our new, fully interactive and up-to-the-minute online poll, now offering new polls every weekday, updated at midnight. And if you missed a previous poll, you can still vote in the poll archives! So, if you weren't part of the 91% of folks who either liked or loved our new poll, you can still go back and make your vote count. AOL members, if you don't have your web browser in working order, you'll need it to take the new poll. Go to keyword: upgrade to update your browser. Visit our new poll today and every day at: http://www.parascope.com/cgi-bin/parapoll.pl/current -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Dissent and Debate, Deep in the Heart of Texas The various members of the Republic of Texas are facing some tough questions these days. Do the actions of one member destroy the legitimacy of an entire movement? Does this provisional government have the necessary rights under international law to make Texas a nation again, or is it all wishful thinking? Join us in the ParaScope Virtual Places chat room, the Crop Circle as we discuss the Republic of Texas. Saturday, starting at 9pm ET. http://www.parascope.com/virtualplaces/virtualplaces.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Coming Up Next Week! Catch all these stories next week on a daily basis on America Online, or all at once next Thursday on the web site! Tuesday, May 6 -- The Cupboards are Bare, and Getting Barer World food reserves are at a record low, as meager harvests and bad weather promise more hard times to come. Famine is taking hold in Africa, and North Korean food distribution centers are adding sawdust to the remaining rice supplies. The situation in North Korea has become so dire that families are holding their dead for several days before burying them to ensure the dead won't be dug up and cannibalized. So far, domestic food prices haven't surged, but will the increasing strain on supply usher in a global food shortage? ParaScope has been covering this story for more than a year, scooping the corporate media by several months. Stay with us as we stay on top of this developing situation. ----------------- Wednesday, May 7 -- The CIA and UFOs: The Robertson Panel Report ParaScope unearths a gem of a UFO document: the once-secret report by a panel of CIA-selected experts who probed the national security risks of "flying saucer" sightings. The "Robertson Panel," which met in 1953, issued some startling recommendations that would have radically changed the UFO debate, had they been adopted. This Nebula/Dossier special feature is sure to be a must-read! ----------------- Thursday, May 8 -- Floating Frog Defies Gravity Did Grandpa used to respond to your "if only" daydreams by saying, "IF? Why if a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass a-hopping!" Well tell Grandpa to wake up and smell the millennial madness, because frogs don't even need wings to fly. Of course, the giant magnetic field makes it look easy. Scientists in the Netherlands have figured out one of the best levitation tricks yet: using magnetic energy to slightly distort the orbits of electrons in the frog's atoms. Sixteen teslas, and the (live) frog is airborne! No kidding! Don't believe us? We dare you to miss this story. ----------------- Friday, May 9 -- Charlotte Protests Urban Warfare Drill On March 4, U.S. Army Special Forces troops and helicopters staged a late-night siege in Charlotte, North Carolina. Like many of the "urban warfare" exercises conducted in U.S. cities in recent years, this operation has evoked a storm of local protest. Frightened residents and angry officials are weighing in against the military's conduct and characterization of the exercise. Dossier has obtained the full text of the Charlotte mayor's recent letter to President Clinton protesting the operation. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Want to help change the world, or at least a little corner of the online world? Here's your chance. Check out the following positions at ParaScope: Sound, Music, Action! Here's your chance to write the national anthem for the conspiracy nation -- or the paranormal republic -- take your pick. ParaScope is looking for musicians and sound designers to assist in bringing life to an upcoming multimedia project that combines some of the best of ParaScope's content from our first year online. If you'd like to volunteer to compose atmospheric music or sound effects, send a note to music@parascope.com. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Jane, Stop This Crazy Thing! Thought you were tough enough to handle the Dispatch and now you realize you're not? Starting to think you've made a wrong turn off the info highway? Well, we're only going to go over this once, so listen up! To unsubscribe yourself from Dispatch: 1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com 2) In the body of your mail, type: unsubscribe dispatch That's all there is to it! Likewise, if you've received this e-mail from a friend and you'd like to subscribe yourself, just: 1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com 2) In the body of your mail, type: subscribe dispatch ---------------------------------------- ParaScope 11288 Ventura Blvd., #904 Studio City, CA 91604 America Online -- keyword: parascope parascope@aol.com World-Wide Web -- http://www.parascope.com info@parascope.com Search for other documents from or mentioning: parascope | listserv |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 CPR-Canada Now on World Wide Web From: psa@direct.ca (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:10:06 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 03:25:17 -0400 Subject: CPR-Canada Now on World Wide Web May 1, 1997 To: All CPR-CANADA NOW ON THE WORLD WIDE WEB! CPR-Canada, the Canadian affiliate office of Circles Phenomenon Research International, now has its own web site as of May 1, 1997. As a resource centre on the continuing crop circle phenomenon, this web site will provide the latest news and developments from Canada and around the globe, as well as published reports on Canadian formations, photo and diagram archives, sampling procedures for lab analysis and related contacts and web site links. The site requires a frames-enabled browser and is best viewed with browser window set at maximum screen width. Please see News and Updates for photo of first major pictogram formation in England in 1997 at Barbury Castle, Wiltshire, found on April 20, plus other news! Welcome, all! Paul Anderson Director CPRI / CPR-Canada E-Mail: psa@direct.ca Web: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: Jean van Gemert <jeanvg@dds.nl> Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 07:24:17 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 10:45:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >From: Pamela7@aol.com >Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:32:50 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: NEW ROSWELL BOOK! >On a similar note, Mr. Stanton Friedman and the terrible weaknesses in his >claims are also exposed by Korff and there is new information on how >unreliable the major Jesse Marcel was because you see his performance reports >printed in Korff's book which show he was reprimanded for blowing Roswell out >of proportion. Do you have some specific information on "how unreliable Marcel was" and those records? A few quotes would be nice. Thanks! Jean __________________________________________________________________________ Science, Logic, and the UFO Debate: http://www.primenet.com/~bdzeiler/index.html -----------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 Re: Financing For Hearings In Congress,(idea) From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 11:52:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 11:52:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Financing For Hearings In Congress,(idea) >From: EdKomarek@aol.com >Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:24:11 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >cc: skywatch@phoenix.net, iufo@world.std.com >Subject: Re, Re Financing For Hearings In Congress,(idea) >>Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 00:50:52 -0500 (CDT) >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Financing For Hearings In Congress,(idea) >>>A POTENTIAL INTRODUCTORY LETTER >>>Toward gaining corporate financing for hearings in Congress >>>By Ed Komarek [snip] >>I happen to personally know the CEO of a Fortune 500 company >>-- involved in aeronautics -- and I can assure you that your >>letter, as worded, will not get past the proverbial first base. >>In the unlikely event that it does, however, it will do us more >>harm than good. >>"Oh, ufologists," I can hear him saying now. "Aren't they the >>people who can't even spell, let alone back up their claims? >>And I'm supposed to put my good corporate name (and that of my >>stockholders) behind their efforts to petition congress? Maybe >>when pigs fly -- unless you try to tell me that flying pigs are >>reverse-engineered UFOs." [snip] > Come on Dennis give me a break. That was simply a draft letter >posted to a list. I edit and publish my own newspaper, Citizens Oversight, >with a run of 30,000 copies that is just as good or better than any other >newspaper in this area. I of course use spell check which I don't happen to >have with this aol email. I just don't have the time right now to edit and >spell check stuff. I would rather use the time in a more advantagous manner. >Just hold you nose and read! Ed, Your letter, as you so glibly put it, is _not_ "simply a draft letter to a list"! Your headers show you posted to at least two other lists. Of the three, two, that I know of, are archived on a publicly accessed web-site. There are probably many thousands of people reading your 'drafts'. Citing "time" really does not make it. What's wrong with composing your posts in a program that _does_ spell check and then copying and pasting 'em into your AOL software? >As for the rest of your post, well what can I say? A few errors in a >draft letter are relatively easy to correct. Your post speaks volumes about >you, MUFON and the quality of your leadership in that organization. Tsk, tsk, Ed. Dennis made some valid points that don't warrant a pissy, personal-attack. He's right. You need to think a little harder about the overall image of ufology. Don't post 'draft' letters in _very_ public forums. If you _really_ want to help, use email to solicit opinions and suggestions - hell, there are a dozen or so damn good writers on this List who would be most happy to pool talent, privately, in order to _make_ points for ufology. Errol Search for other documents from or mentioning: edkomarek | skywatch |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 Re: Financing For Hearings In Congress,(idea) From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:24:11 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 11:51:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Financing For Hearings In Congress,(idea) >Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 00:50:52 -0500 (CDT) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Financing For Hearings In Congress,(idea) >>From: EdKomarek@aol.com >>Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:16:56 -0400 (EDT) >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Financing For Hearings In Congress,(idea) >>A POTENTIAL INTRODUCTORY LETTER >>Toward gaining corporate financing for hearings in Congress >>By Ed Komarek >>Dear Chairman--- >Ed, do what you're gonna do. Before you start writing letters >to corporate CEOs, however -- letters that will never reach their >desks in the first place -- might I suggest that you consult something as basic as a dictionary if you don't have one? >What in the hey, for example, are "competiours"? The word I >assume you want is "competitors." >It's not "a effort," but "an" effort, not "idenified," but >"identified," not "endevors," but "endeavors," not "evenutaly," >but "eventually," and so on. >out regardless of what I say, are but one reason why the field >of ufology as a whole is so widely regarded as a hodge-podge of >kooks and crackpots, and a laughingstock in the bargain. >I happen to personally know the CEO of a Fortune 500 company >-- involved in aeronautics -- and I can assure you that your >letter, as worded, will not get past the proverbial first base. >In the unlikely event that it does, however, it will do us more >harm than good. >"Oh, ufologists," I can hear him saying now. "Aren't they the >people who can't even spell, let alone back up their claims? >And I'm supposed to put my good corporate name (and that of my >stockholders) behind their efforts to petition congress? Maybe >when pigs fly -- unless you try to tell me that flying pigs are >reverse-engineered UFOs." >So do what you gotta do, Ed. Just don't do it in my name, >MUFON's or anyone else's but your own. And when you do it in >your name, be sure to spell it rihgt. >(: Come on Dennis give me a break. That was simply a draft letter posted to a list. I edit and publish my own newspaper, Citizens Oversight, with a run of 30,000 copies that is just as good or better than any other newspaper in this area. I of course use spell check which I don't happen to have with this aol email. I just don't have the time right now to edit and spell check stuff. I would rather use the time in a more advantagous manner. Just hold you nose and read! As for the rest of your post, well what can I say? A few errors in a draft letter are relatively easy to correct. Your post speaks volumes about you, MUFON and the quality of your leadership in that organization. I do thank you for expressing yourself in a public forum such as on the UFO updates list serve. Keep talking and keep in mind that old story from South Georgia about Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby. The best, Ed Komarek (ORTK)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell [Marcel] From: DRudiak@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:48:02 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 12:28:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell [Marcel] From: Pamela7@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:32:50 -0400 (EDT) To: Updates@globalserve.net Subject: NEW ROSWELL BOOK! >On a similar note, Mr. Stanton Friedman and the terrible weaknesses in >his >claims are also exposed by Korff and there is new information on how >unreliable the major Jesse Marcel was because you see his performance reports >printed in Korff's book which show he was reprimanded for blowing Roswell out >of proportion. I have read Marcel's file, and there is absolutely NOTHING in his performance reports saying that he was "unreliable" or "reprimanded for blowing Roswell out of proportion." Quite the contrary. Marcel was consistently given very high marks in all of his service evaluations. What I suspect Korff is doing is taking the following comment by Col. Blanchard on May 6, 1948 and quoting it completely out of context: "His only known weakness is an inclination to magnify problems he is confronted with." The full comment is: "A quiet, mature field grade officer. Exceptionally well qualified in his duty assignment. His only known weakness is an inclination to magnify problems he is confronted with. Superior moral qualities." Similar comments about Marcel were made in other evaluations, and referred to his tendency to be a perfectionist and to do more work than was required of him. Blanchard's comment is not specifically directed at the Roswell incident. The rest of Blanchard's evaluation rates him uniformly excellent to outstanding on a standardized checklist. For example, one statement asks the evaluator to rate the officer's ability to "be responsible in an emergency calling for initiative, coolness, forceful leadership." Blanchard checked the box "Prefer to have him," equivalent to an excellent rating. Blanchard does the same for "Plan all aspects of a military situation, using judgment, initiative, and coolness." In another evaluation on Aug 2, 1948 just before Marcel was transferred to Washington, Blanchard wrote the following personal comments: "Very highly qualified for his present duty assignment and highly recommended for intelligence work at higher leve. Due to this officer's personal efforts to be [the] standard of the 509th bomb Wing's intelligence, [his work] is considered to be of the very highest order. This offer is serious minded, loyal to the extreme, will work long and hard hours. Highly dependable." Under characteristics that best described Marcel, Blanchard checked, "Follows closely directions of higher echelons," "A go-getter always does a good job," "Knows his job and performs it well," "Never makes excuses for his mistakes," "The men know they can rely on his judgment," "Admiration of men and officers alike," "Respected by his fellow officers," "Impresses people favorably," "Commands respect by his actions," "Obtains respect and obedience without causing resentment." Under personal qualifications, rated 1-10, Marcel's lowest marking was on "Degree to which he is able to meet situations without emotional upset," in which he was ranked 7, or in other words superior but not excellent or outstanding. All others were 8's and 9's, including "Degree to which he is able to discriminate and evaluate and arrive at logical conclusiongs," rated 9. None of this is consistent with somebody who allegedly couldn't identify extremely commonplace materials. Gen. Ramey wrote on Aug. 19, 1948: "The services of this officer are outstanding and it is to the best interst of this command that he remain on active duty." Ramey later added that Marcel had the potential to become an "Air Force Commander," but would never make a Commanding General because he wasn't a rated pilot. Ramey also knew Marcel for his intelligence work during Operation Crossroads, the A-bomb tests in the South Pacific in 1946. Ramey wrote a commendation for Marcel on July 26, 1946, in which he stated: "I heartily commend you for the outstanding manner in which you so competently discharged the many and varied duties as Staff Intelligence Officer while attached tot he 509th Composite Group during and previous to Operation Crossroads." "Throughout the entire project you displayed superior ability in the compilation and dissemination of many intricate intelligence reports. Your efficent handling of the complex problem of carrying out the many security measures necessary for this top secret bomb was attended with great tact and diplomacy. The cheerful spirit of cooperation you displayed in handling the aditional duty of making the briefing room the descriptive success it was, a definite aid in the completion of the many highly specialized and varied briefings held there, brought numerous complimentary from all those coming in contact with it's perfection..." Both Ramey and Blanchard knew exactly what went down at Roswell in July 1947. Blanchard was the Roswell C/O who issued the "crashed disk recovery" press release. Ramey was the guy who put out the weather balloon cover story, which began only an hour later (according to the N.Y. Times, Washington Post, and San Francisco Examiner). Do any of these comments by Blanchard or Ramey sound like reprimands for what happened at Roswell, or descriptions of an intelligence officer who couldn't recognize aluminum foil and balsa wood and rashly jumped to the conclusion that it was debris from an alien flying saucer? This is utter nonsense! Besides, all evidence points to Blanchard himself having seen the material before issuing his press release. There are two other evaluations in Marcel's file after Roswell, written by Lt. Col. Ray McDuffee, when Marcel worked at the Special Weapons Project in Washington, starting Dec. 26, 1948. The SWP was a high-sensitive, Top Secret program for remote detection of future Soviet A-bomb tests. His job description is given as follows: "Officer in Charge of War Room. Supervises the prepartion of charts diagrams, and reports on Intelligence data received and keeps Chief, Intelligence Branch informed of all intelligence data and hcanges. Prepares special briefing material for Commanding General, Chief of Operations and Technical Director." Duffy uniformly rated Marcel excellent to outstanding in practically all categories. Overall Marcel received total ratings of 4.4 and 4.5 on a scale of 1 to 5. Under personal comments, Duffy stated June 30, 1949: "He accepts full responsibility for the control, supervision, direction, and instruction of subordinartes. By his own example and willingness to work long, grinding hours he produces superior results from himself and his subordinates, both in work and in conformance to the stands of conduct and discipline expected of Air Force personnel." "He has an acute sense of financial responsibility, personal trustworthiness, and moral character." "He is a very intelligent officer and has a very wide range of capabilities. He has had experience in the intelligence field inalmost all its aspects form the lowest to the highest limits. He has an excellent technical background, is a first rate cartographer, draftsman, illustrator, and presentation man. There are few men in the Air Force who are equal to major Macel in the field of presentation work backed by his wide range of intelligence experience." "He is never satisfied with his work and has exactly work standards which assure his continued growth." He is capable of assuming more important positions and greater responsibilities." Again, Duffee was noting Marcel's streak of perfectionism and being a bit of a workaholic. Like Blanchard, he also noted Marcel's high moral integrity, his diverse intelligence background, and high quality of his intelligence work. There is nothing in all of this about Marcel being reprimanded for blowing Roswell out of proportion. Nor is their anything about him being an incompetent or rash or untrustworthy intelligence officer. The evaluations say exactly the OPPOSITE. How the hell did he ever get promoted to the highly sensitive SWP if he was any of these things and put in charge of the intelligence briefings for the higher brass? Unless some new document has come to light, Korff is lying, pure and simple!! >I think the Fat Lady has begun to sing in Roswell and if any of you care >about the UFO field, you will buy Korff's new book. I don't think so. When the truth comes out how people like Robert Todd and Kal Korff have distorted Marcel's service record, the Fat Lady may begin to sing on them. > I now understand that Mr. >Korff is not a skeptic but does seek to improve the UFO field by helping >clear out the bunk cases from the ones that might be real. I know his book is >going to get a lot of exposure (I have seen some of it already) and it is a >relief for me to finally read a book about Roswell that has information in it >that I can verify for a change. There is nothing like facts, and as Korff >demonstrates after investigating Roswell for 16 years (much longer than >Hesemann) he has finally found the truth. Which is what? That people like Marcel, Blanchard, and others couldn't distinguish rubber, tinfoil, Scotch tape, and balsa wood from something extraordinary? All Korff is doing is recycling the Air Force's, Robert Todd's, and Karl Pflock's Mogul balloon explanation. There is nothing new in any of this. > Korff also grew up with Friedman >and Bill Moore as a kid and he presents a lot of new information on them as >well which puts them in their proper perspective. > >The last chapter in Korff's book is the one everyone should read, and take to >heart. He pleads very emotionally for the severe need to think critically and >objectively and scientifically in this field and he makes an airtight case >for doing so. Other than this, his chapter five nails down what Roswell >really was, and these new photos and engineering drawings (previously >classified) close the case. No, not previously classified. They were in the Air Force's 1995 1000 page Roswell report. Mogul was officially declassified in 1992. I have not read Korff's book yet, but I know of at least one other serious error in it from comments about it on the MSNBC Web page. Korff alleged the mysterious "memory foil" was nothing but aluminized mylar used on the Mogul balloon radar reflectors. This is nothing but a stale debunker urban myth of unknown origin. The Mogul documents published by the Air Force plus newspaper accounts of the day clearly indicate that the radar reflectors were constructed of plain ordinary aluminum foil. Mogul engineer Charles B. Moore when interviewed by the A.F. (again in A.F. report) was asked whether aluminized mylar was used, perhaps in the balloons. He said absoluely not. Mylar was a new material in 1947 and not used by the balloon teams until around 1950. They used polyethylene in the balloons starting in July 1947 (too late to explain the Roswell crash, since Moore and the A.F. are insisting it was a Mogul launch using neoprene rubber balloons dating back to June 4). Moore further explained that polyethylene was translucent and stretchable, whereas mylar was clear and nonextensible. Further, he noted that the plastic balloons were deliberately NOT aluminized. That was also noted in the published Mogul documentation. So where did Korff get "aluminized mylar" out of all of this? If this is indicative of the "accuracy" of his research into Roswell, then I think we can safely assume that the last word on the Roswell events has yet to be written. David Rudiak
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 Transcript Of Halt's 'Rendlesham' Tape From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 06:44:31 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 10:41:16 -0400 Subject: Transcript Of Halt's 'Rendlesham' Tape Concerning the ongoing Rendlesham debate on UFO UpDates, this is a transcript of Halt's tape. I received it from "alt.paranet.ufo" on May 1 at 11.07 CET. UFO Reporting and Information Service Seattle, Washington ______________________________________________________________________ TRANSCRIPT OF THE RENDLESHAM FOREST TAPE - 12/27 AND 12/29-30/80 Produced for CUFON Computer UFO Network BACKGROUND: Lt. Colonel Charles Halt recorded an incident onto his tape recorder that is supposed to have occurred either on 12/27, 12/29, or 12/30 of 1980. The incident occurred in England at the Woodbridge Airbase. At which nuclear weapons are stored. I have tried, to the best of my ability, and with my limited equipment, to transfer the dialog from this tape to paper so that those interested may read it as well as listen to it. If you find any corrections, please let me know so that I may correct them. Thank you, Dale D. Goudie CUFON Computer UFO Network ___________________________________________________________________ TRANSCRIPT OF THE RENDLESHAM FOREST TAPE BY: DALE D. GOUDIE 3/21/85 ___________________________________________________________________ Col. Halt: 150 feet or more from the initial, I should say suspected impact point. Have a little difficulty, we can't get the Lidall to work. Seems to be some kind of mechanical problem. Going to send it back and get another Lidall. Meantime were going to take some readings with the Geiger counter and uh, stick around here a little bit waiting for another Lidall to come back in. Soldier: Let's mark one at a time, that's pod number. Halt: O.K., were now approaching the area within about 25 or 30 feet. What kind of readings we getting? Anything? Soldier: Just five clicks. Halt: Five clicks. Where are the impressions? Soldier: Here's one. Halt: Is that all the bigger they are? Soldier: Well there's one more well defined one over here. Halt: We're still getting clicks Soldier: Still getting clicks. Halt: Can we read that on the scale? Soldier: Yes Sir, we're now on the 5/10ths scale, and were reading about, uh, the third or fourth increment. Halt: O.K., we're still comfortably safe here. Radio: (Makes comment about a Lidall) Unknown: Still minor readings. Halt: Let's go to the third one over here. Soldier: Yes, now I'm getting some residual. Halt: I can read that, the meter is definitely giving....low pulse. Lets go to the center of the area next and see what kind of reading we get out there. You're reading the clicks, I can't hear the clicks. That about the center Bruce? Soldier: Yes Sir. Halt: O.K., lets go to the center. That's the best deflection needle I've seen yet. O.K., can you give me an estimation. Soldier: We're on the point five scale, and we're getting, we're getting right at, uh, a half of a milliroentgen. Halt: That's point. Soldier: I haven't seen it go any higher. Halt: O.K., we'll go out toward the... Soldier: Now it's picking up. Halt: This is out toward the Level One indentation where we first got the strongest reading. It's similar to what we got before. Soldier: This looks like an area here possibly that could be a blast. Soldier: It just jumped to 17. Halt: What? Soldier: It just jumped to 7 tenths. Halt: Seven tenths, right there in the center? Soldier: Uh, huh. Halt: We found a small blast, what looks like a blasted, or, scruffed up area here. We're getting very positive readings. Lets see, is that near the center? Soldier: Yes it is. Halt: Up to seven tenths. Seven units lets call it on the point Five scale. O.K., why don't we do this. Why don't we make a sweep. Soldier: Here, I got my gloves on now. Halt: Lets make a sweep out around the whole area, about 10 foot out. Make a perimeter run around it, starting right back here at the corner. Back at the same first corner where we came in. Lets go right back here. I want to depend on you to count the clicks. Soldier: Right. Halt: O.K. lets...right put the light on it, lets sweep around it. Put it on the ground every once in a while. Soldier: This looks like an abrasion on the tree. Halt: O.K., we'll catch that on the way back, lets go around, hit it there. Soldier: I got an interesting one over here, looks like an abrasion point into the center. Halt: It is. It may be old though, there's some sap marks or something there. Lets go on back around. Soldier: They ought to give us an extension on that. Halt: Yeah, this is an awkward thing to use isn't it. Are we getting anything further?, I'm going to shut this recorder off until we find something. Soldier: Picking up here. Halt: Picking up? What are we up to? We're up to 2 3 units of deflection. You're getting in close to one pod. Soldier: Picking up something here. Picking up. Halt: O.k., its still not going above 3 or 4 units. Soldier: Right. It's picking up more though. More frequent. Halt: Yes, you're staying steady up around 2 to 3...to 4 units now. Soldier: Get one of these trees that's facing the blast. What we assume is the landing sight. All around an abrasion that's facing in the same direction towards the center. Halt: That's interesting, lets go this way around the circle. Turn it back down here. Halt: Let me see that. You know that's kind of funny, that's, your right about the abrasion. I've never seen a tree that's, uh, never seen a pine tree that's been damaged, react that fast. Soldier: I have a bottle to put that in. Halt: Yeah, you have a sample bottle? Soldier: Yes Sir. Halt: Yeah, put this stuff in. Soldier: You notice their all the same color. Halt: O.K., from now on lets, lets, lets identify that as point number one. That stake there. So you all know where it is if we have to sketch it. You got that side Nevells? Soldier: Yes Sir. Halt: O.K., closest to the Woodbridge Base. Soldier: That will be point one. Halt: Be Point one. Lets go clockwise from there. Soldier: Point Two. Halt: Point Two, so this tree is between point two and point three. Radio: (Two other personnel requesting Halts location) Halt: Tell them negative at this time. We'll tell them when they can come out here. Don't want them out here right now. O.K., the sample, your gonna want this sample number one. Soldier: Yes Sir. Halt: Have them cut it off and include some of that sap and all, is between indentation two and three on a pine tree about, uh five feet away, about 3 and a half feet off the ground. There's a round abrasion on the tree about, uh, 3 and a half, or four inches in diameter. It looks like it might be old, but, uh... Halt: Strange, there's a crystalline pine sap that's come out that fast. You say there's other trees here that are damaged with similar things? Soldier: Yes, over towards the landing sight. Halt: O.K., why don't you take a picture of that, and remember your picture. Hey, you ought to be writing this down. Well, it's going to be on the tape. Soldier: You got a tape measure with you? Halt: This is the picture, your first picture will at the first tree. The one between, uh, mark 2 and 3. Meantime, I'm going to look a couple of these trees over here... Halt: Are you getting any readings on the trees your taking samples from?, on the side facing the suspected landing sight? Soldier: 4 clicks, max. Halt: Up to 4. Interesting. That's right where you're taking the sample now. Soldier: Four. Halt: That's the strongest point on the tree? Soldier: Yes Sir. Soldier: If you come up to the back, there's no clicks whatsoever. Halt: No clicks at all on the back, it's all on the, the side facing the...interesting. All the tissues look like something twisted it, as it sat down on them. Looks like someone took something and sat it down and twisted it from side to side. Soldier: Uh, huh. Halt: Very strange. We're up at the same tree we took the sample off with this, what do you call it, starscope? Soldier: Uh, huh. Halt: Getting a definite heat reflection off the tree, about three to four feet off the ground. Soldier: Yes. At the same spot. Halt: Same place as the spot is, we're getting a heat... Soldier: On the spot on the tree directly behind us, I picked up the same thing, the one off to your right. Halt: Three trees in the area, immediately adjacent to the sight, within ten feet of the suspected landing sight, we're picking up heat reflection off the trees. What's that again? Soldier: Well, shine the light on it again Bob. Halt: You having trouble? O.K., turn the light on. Soldier: When you turn the light on, you'll notice the white. ** Halt: Hey! Halt: You're right there's a white streak on the tree. Soldier: Yeah, indicates, uh... Halt: Let me turn around and look at this tree over here now, just a second. Why don't you direct it towards this tree. I can see it. O.K., now give me a little side lighting so I can climb the tree. O.K., uh, I lost the tree. O.K., stop, stop. Light on. Hey, this is eerie. This is strange, here, someone want to look at the spots on the ground. O.K., lets step back and not walk all over it. Come back here and somebody put a beam on'em. We're going to have to come back 10 or 15 feet. O.K., lights off. Yeah. O.K., that's what we'll call spot number 3. Lets go to the back part and get spot number one. Spot number one, here's spot number one right here. Spot number one right here. Need some light? There it is right there. Focused? O.K., look around spot number one through the Starlight scope. Soldier: Picking up a slight increase in light as I go over it. Halt: Slight increase in light at spot number one. Lets go look at spot number two. Halt: Spot number two's right over here. Right here, see it? O.K., get focused on it, tell me when. O.K., lights on, lets see what we get on it. Soldier: Slight increase. Halt: Just a slight increase? Soldier: I'll try to center it. Halt: It's slightly off centered, it's right there. Better get your reading on it right there. Soldier: O.K. Halt: Tell me when your ready. Soldier: Ready. Halt: O.K., lights on. This is the center spot we're looking at now, or almost the center. Soldier: Slight increase. Halt: Slight increase there. This is slightly off centered toward the, uh, one two side. It's some type of abrasion or something in the ground where the pine needles are all pushed back and we get a high reading about, uh, deflection of two to three, maybe four, depending on the perimeter. Soldier: Yes, you say there's a positive after effect? Soldier: Yes, there is definitely...that's on the center spot. Soldier: There is an after effect. Soldier: Whats that mean? Soldier: Means that when the lights are turned off, once we are focused in and allow time for the eyes to adjust, we are getting an indication of a heat source coming out of that center spot. Which will show up on... Soldier: Heat or some form of energy, hardly heated at this stage of the game. Halt: Looking directly overhead, one can see an opening in the trees, plus some freshly broken pine branches on the ground underneath. Looks like some of them came off about 15 to 20 feet up. Some small branches, about an inch or less in diameter. ** Halt: It's 0148, we're hearing very strange noises out of the Farmer's barnyard animals. There very, very active making awful lot of noise. You just saw a light? Where? Soldier: Yeah Halt: Wait a minute now, slow down, where? Soldier: Right up in this position here, straight ahead, in between the tree...there it is again! Watch. Straight ahead off the flash back there Sir. There it is. Halt: Yeah, I see it too. What is it? Soldier: We don't know Sir. Halt: Yeah, it's a strange small red light, looks to be maybe a quarter to a half mile, maybe further out. I'm going to switch off for awhile. Halt: The light is gone now, it was approximately 120 degrees, is it back again? Soldier: Yes Sir. Halt: Well douse the flashlights then. Lets go out to the edge of the clearing so I can get a better look at it. See if you can get the Starscope on it. The light's still there and all the barnyard animals have gotten quiet now. Yeah, we're heading about 110 or 120 degrees from the sight, I'm through to the clearing now, still getting a reading on the meter. About two clicks. Just counted 3 to 4 clicks, getting stronger. Soldier: Now it's stopped. Now it's coming up, hold on, there we go. About 4 foot off the ground with a compass heading of 110 degrees. Halt: Turn the meter off, now say that again. About 4 feet off the ground, about 110 degrees, getting a reading of about 4 clicks? Soldier: Yes Sir. Now its died. Halt: Now its died. I think it's something other than the ground. I think its somethings that, something very weird. Soldier: How about the tree right over... Halt: We just _______ the first night _______ we've seen. We're about 150 or 200 yards from the sight. The woods are just deadly calm. There is no doubt about it, there's some type of strange flashing red light ahead. Soldier: There, it's yellow. Halt: I saw a yellow tinge in it too. Weird, it, it appears that he may be moving it this way? It's brighter than it has been. Soldier: Yellow. Halt: It's coming this way!, it's definitely coming this way. Pieces of it are shooting off. There is no doubt about it, this is...weird. It is definitely... Soldier: Two lights, one light to the right, one light to the left. Halt: O.K., keep the flashlights off. There's something very, very strange. Keep the headset on, see if it gets any stronger. O.K., give us a rundown. Soldier: Notation that this is on a Beta reading too. Halt: It's on a Beta reading, O.K. Soldier: But it still has been removed. Halt: O.K. Halt: Pieces are falling off it again. Soldier: And it just moved to the right. Halt: Yeah! Soldier: Just off to the right. Halt: Strange...Why did it go left? Halt: Lets, lets approach to the edge of the woods up there, O.K.? You wanna do without lights? Lets do it carefully, come on. Halt: O.K., we're looking at the thing, we're probably about 2 to 300 yards away, it looks like an eye winking at you. It's still moving from side to side, and when you put the starscope on it, it, it sort of has a hollow center, a, a, dark center. It's, It's, you know, like the pupil of an eye looking at you, winking. And the flash is so bright to the starscope that, a, it almost burns your eye. Halt: We passed the Farmer's house and crossed into the next field, and now we have multiple sightings, of up to 5 lights with a similar shape and all. But they seem to be steady now, rather than a pulsating or glow with a red flash. Halt: We just crossed the creek. Soldier: Here we go, strong. Halt: And, uh, we're getting what kind of readings now? Soldier: Three clicks. Halt: Three good clicks on the meter and we're seeing strange lights in the sky. Halt: At 0244 we're at the far side of the Farmer's, second Farmer's field. And made sighting again, about 110 degrees. This looks like it's clear out to the coast, it's right on the horizon. Moves about a bit, and flashes from time to time. Still steady or __________ encounter. Also after negative readings in this other field, we're picking up, a, slight readings, a, 4 or 5 clicks now, on the meter. Halt: 0305, we see strange strobe like flashes to the, rather sporadic but there's definitely something, some kind of phenomena. Halt: 0305, at about 10 degrees horizon, directly North, we've got two strange objects, uh, half-moon shaped, dancing about colored lights on them. At, uh, what I would guess to be about 5 to 10 miles out, maybe less. The half-moons are now turning full circles. It's although there was an eclipse or something there for a minute or two. Halt: 0315, now we've got an object about 10 degrees directly South. 10 degrees off the horizon. And the ones to the North are moving. One's moving away from us. Soldier: They're moving out fast! Soldier: This one on the right is heading away too! Halt: And they're both heading North. Here he comes from the South, he's heading toward us now. Now we're observing what appears to be a beam coming down to the ground. This is unreal. Halt: 330, or 0330 and the objects are still in the sky although the one that's South looks like it's losing a little bit of altitude. We're turning around, heading back towards the base. The object to the, the object to the South is still beaming down lights to the ground. Halt: 0400 hours, one object still hovering over Woodbridge Base at about 5 to 10 degrees off the horizon, still moving erratic, and similar lights, and beaming down as earlier. ---------------------------------------------------------------- DEPARTMENT OF THE AIR FORCE HEADQUARTERS COMBAT SUPPORT GROUP (USAFC) APO NEW YORK REPLY TO: 13 JAN 81 CD ATIN OF. SUBJECT: Unexplained Lights TO: RAF/CC 1. Early in the morning of 27 Dec 80 (approximately 0300L), two USAF security police patrolmen saw unusual lights outside the back gate at RAF Woodbridge. Thinking an aircraft might have crashed or been force down, they call for permission to go outside the gate to investigate. The on-duty flight chief responded and allowed three patrolmen to proceed on foot.The individuals reported seeing a strange glowing object in the forest.The object was described as being metallic in appearance and triangular in shape, approximately two to three meters across the base and approximately two meters high. It illuminated the entire forest with a white light. The object itself had a pulsing red light on top and a bank(s) of blue lights underneath. The object was hovering or on legs. As the patrolmen approached the object, it maneuvered through the trees and disappeared. At this time the animals on a nearby farm went into a frenzy. The object was briefly sighted approximately an hour later near the back gate. 2. The next day, three depressions 1 1/2" deep and 7" in diameter were found where the object had been sighted on the ground. The foll- owing night (29 Dec 80) the area was checked for radiation.Beta/Gamma readings of 0.1 milliroentgens were recorded with peak reading in the three depressions and near the center of the triangle formed by the depressions. A nearby tree had moderate (.05-.07)readings on the side of the tree toward the depressions. 3. Later in the night a red sun-like light was seen through the tree. It moved about and pulsed. At one point it appeared to throw off glowing particles and then broke into five separate white objects and then disappeared. Immediately thereafter, three star-like objects were noticed in the sky. Two objects to the north and one to the south, all of which were about 10 degrees off the horizon. The objects moved rapidly in sharp angular movements and displayed red, green and blue lights. The objects to the north appeared to be elliptical through an 8-12 power lens. They then turned to full circles. The objects to the north remained in the sky for an hour or more. The object to the south was visible for two or three hours and beamed down a stream of light from time to time. Numerous individuals, including the undersigned, witnessed the activities in paragraphs 2 and 3. CHARLES I. HALT, Lt Col, USAF Deputy Base Commander ================================================================ --------------------------- C U F O N --------------------------- Computer UFO Network Seattle Washington, USA (206) 776-0382 8 Data Bits, No Parity, 1 Stop Bit 300/1200/2400 bps. SYSOP - Jim Klotz Information Director - Dale Goudie UFO Reporting and Information Service Voice Line - (206) 721-5035 P.O.Box 832, Mercer Island, WA 98040, USA - Please credit CUFON as the source of this material - ================================================================ Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 00:13:39 -0700 From: earl grey <mib@area.51> Subject: UFO FILES: Bentwaters Case, Part 1 Message-ID: <336842A3.52A7@area.51> Mime-Version: 1.0 Search for other documents from or mentioning: stig_agermose | mib |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: Alfred Breull <puma@hannover.sgh-net.de> Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 13:04:14 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 14:51:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >Date: 02 May 97 12:34:11 EDT >From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Korff's New Book on Roswell >>From: Pamela7@aol.com >>Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:32:50 -0400 (EDT) >>To: Updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: NEW ROSWELL BOOK! >Pam, >>I am embarrassed to have purchased, for example, Michael Hesemann and Phil >>Mantle's book on Roswell. Korff not only convincingly disproves their claims >>in his book, but having independently checked Hesemann's claims for myself >>now, he is not telling the truth I am afraid >How did you purchase this book? Interesting, since it has not been >published yet!! >>Korff's book is not nearly as long as his previous one on Silly Meier, and it >>does not include as many pictures. It only has 24. The photos speak for >>themselves, though, especially the alien autopsy stills and the photo of the >>cameraman. >Korff does not have permission to publish photos from the alien autopsy. If >he has done so, he can expect to hear from Ray Santilli's lawyers. >Bob Well spoken, Bob. I think it's both, a stupid advertisement to make some $ flow into his direction again, and an even more stupid try to rehabilitate KKK. Alf Search for other documents from or mentioning: puma | 76750.2717 |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 Re: PROJECT-1947 - Kent Jeffrey and Roswell From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 10:36:25 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 16:44:18 -0400 Subject: Re: PROJECT-1947 - Kent Jeffrey and Roswell >Date: 02 May 97 10:25:41 EDT >From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701@CompuServe.COM> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: PROJECT-1947 - Kent Jeffrey and Roswell >My concern is where are the "20,000 petitions" that were to be >delivered by the IRI? These documents were to be delivered to >congress over 2 years ago. Regardless of Mr. Jeffery's personal >views on the Roswell Incident, he entered a contract with all >signatories and is legally obligated to follow through on his >promise, IMO. >Had anyone ever heard of Kent Jeffrey prior to the Roswell Initiative? >Here's a thought: If you want to debunk something, how about injecting >a person into it, have that person use all the buzz words and make >himself "Mr whatever". Then when things have built to a peak, have >him say, "Oh, sorry, the Air Force was right all along." Dos this >shoe fit Kent? I don't know. I've never met the man. We played >phone tag with answering machines once for a couple of weeks, but never >did talk. So I don't want to accuse him, but I just want people to >consider this scenario. Yes, I've known him for quite a while and the scenario doesn't fit. I get really tired of all these allegations that so and so might be a government agent, or that they had been hired to debunk something. Kent Jeffrey is an honest man who has momentarily joined the dark side. If we provide persuasive information, he'll take a good look at it and evaluate it. He has a mind of his own and sees things for himself. And we all have to admit that the Roswell case has taken some major hits in the last couple of years. The lies of Gerald Anderson, the fake MJ-12 documents, and the failing to find Glenn Dennis' nurse, not to mention his changing of her name, have called a great deal into question. The antics of the International UFO Museum trying to shamelessly promote themselves and the current Jim Ragsdale story have not helped. Anyone who thinks for him or herself is going to see this as very discouraging. That said, let me point out that I am still convinced that the Roswell case is solid. I believe there was a recovery of an alien spacecraft. But let's not start calling names because Kent has seen some evidence that discourages him. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 Re: Welcoming Linda From: "Klemm - Pamela S." <psklemm@umd5.umd.edu> Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 10:43:34 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 16:38:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Welcoming Linda >From: "Greg Sandow" <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Welcoming Linda >Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:19:44 -0400 In response to Greg's invitation for questions for Linda... I would like to start by asking: Linda, if you remember other experiences that happened to you prior to the beginning of the nightime numbness (for the lack of a better word). In Budd's book he relates the "Casper the Ghost in Christmas Lights" experience. Would you elaborate on this experience for the benefit of those who haven't read the book? When you mentioned this incident to your parents the next day did they assume that you had dreamed this? In your inital letter to Budd you said: "I haven't discussed any of this with anyone for at least 10 years. I have the feeling that it will come back again if I do. I haven't had this experience for about 8 years or more..." Other than the abduction experience of 1989, have you had any other experiences since the writing of your inital letter that might be "abduction or visitation" related? Thanks. Pam K.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 Sheep 'Mutes' in Israel From: Chamish Barry <chamish@netmedia.net.il> Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 14:11:38 +0200 (IST) Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 14:54:11 -0400 Subject: Sheep 'Mutes' in Israel SHEEP MUTILATION IN ISRAEL by Barry Chamish On the morning of May I, Amos and Miriam Glam of Sde Uziah, a farming community near Ashdod, found a scene of carnage in their sheep pen. Four sheep had been shaved in their cheeks and a precise 2 inch hole was drilled from one cheekbone to the other. Though killed by the operation, the sheep did not bleed. This same cheekbone operation was performed on four sheep belong to the Gueta family of Moshav Porat, near Kadima in January 1995. UFO activity accompanied both cases. In nearby Kadima, a UFO was sighted a few days before the Gueta sheep mutilations and a large landing circle was filmed and examined for the television program Sightings. Two nights before the Glam incident, a UFO hovered above the family home and beamed a projected light on Mrs. Glam for some ten seconds. Neither she nor her husband could see the craft which beamed the light. The next night, while presumably the sheep were being mutilated, the couple heard sounds "like mice scurrying" from their yard. Almost precisely a year before, just 300 yards away at Moshav Givati, a horse was mutilated in a similar fashion. The animal's owner Chaim Matal said he saw "four small figures, like Orientals" in his yard the evening of the incident. The Glam sheep mutilations were well documented. Israeli ufologist Doron Rotem took still photos of the sheep while veterinarian Arad Nir filmed the slaughter. His initial conclusion was tha the sheep died of "severe trauma" but declared the wounds were deliberate and too precise to have been caused by wild animals. end -------------------------------------------- Sent by Barry Chamish - Israeli journalist. Phone/Fax : (972)-2-9914936 E-Mail : chamish@netmedia.net.il --------------------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 Re: Congratulations Steven Greer & CSETI From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 08:17:56 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 16:31:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Congratulations Steven Greer & CSETI >Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 20:12:24 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: "S. Baldwin" <sblee@stc.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Congratulations Steven Greer & CSETI >>>Greer seems to have made some impression on a few people. >I am sorry to say I have very little faith that politicians >will take this and run with it. >Most of them are only concerned with getting votes and what >will please the largest amount of people with the biggest pocketbooks. >I was more or less hoping that his efforts would lend a little more >credibility to the UFO scene....in other words sort of a "oh, look >Made UFO's are being discussed in Washington there must be something >to them things- guess Ernie wasn't crazy when he saw that thing in >the pasture last week". Something to bring things out in the open a >little bit and eliminate some of the "whacko element" still >associated with sightings. >Perhaps at the same time encourage the public to report their >sightings with a little more confidence that what they have seen will >be taken seriously. >Since I live in the south perhaps I am particularly sensitive to that >aspect of it. I had a sighting of something out here and believe me >the last people I would go to would be those in authority because of >the stigma attached to "seeing a UFO". Most local officials will take UFO reports seriously, but don't have the resources to deal with them. If you call the Air Force with a report, you will be referred to your local sherriff, and that is the level at which such reports are now publicly handled. You are correct in that Congress is a political entity and won't express too much curiousity on its own. That is why it is important to learn how the system works and then use it to your advantage. Greer has apparently started down that path, but has now gone public without any evidence that anything has been accomplished. This is not going to lend much credibility to sighting reports at a national level. At what point does this lack of information translate into a lack of credibility, and how will that impact on the rest of UFOlogy? Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 Re: NICAP and/or APRO files on Web? From: "Joe Daniels (UFO JOE)" <ufojoe@cron-2.mco.on.ca> Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 17:10:34 -0400 Subject: Re: NICAP and/or APRO files on Web? On Sat, 3 May 1997, UFO UpDates - Toronto posted: > From: DianeOmega@aol.com > Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 14:15:22 -0400 (EDT) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Information available? > Do any of you know if there are NICAP and/or APRO files > available on the Web? All of those files are probably at CUFOS. > ...Flaps, mini-flaps, or sightings that may have occurred in the > early '50's. I have quite a few for that period over the London, Ontario area online at: http://cron-2.mco.net/web/ufo/ontario .--------------------------------------------. | From UFO Joe Daniels http://cron-2.mco.net | | 37122-769 Southdale Rd. London, ON N6E-3B3 | | An active member of CUFORN & MUFON Ontario | `--------------------------------------------'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:09:55 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 16:44:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell In a message dated 97-05-02 09:53:54 EDT, you write: << Subj: UFO UpDate: Korff's New Book on Roswell Date: 97-05-02 09:53:54 EDT From: updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto) To: updates@globalserve.net From: Pamela7@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:32:50 -0400 (EDT) To: Updates@globalserve.net Subject: NEW ROSWELL BOOK! >Hi there, [snip] >I want to make you all aware of a new book out by Kal Korff called "The >Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want You to Know." I was so moved >after reading this book that I feel as if I must share its contents >with everyone. [snip] >On a similar note, Mr. Stanton Friedman and the terrible weaknesses >in his claims are also exposed by Korff and there is new information >on how unreliable the major Jesse Marcel was because you see his >performance reports printed in Korff's book which show he was >reprimanded for blowing Roswell out of proportion. >Pamela7 (Pam Rawlins). Well, I've just read Jesse Marcel's service record and find nothing in them to suggest that he was reprimanded for "blowing Roswell out of proportion." In fact, the only negative comment that I find is in the report for the period 1 Jul 1947 to 30 Apr 1948. It said: "His only known weakness is an inclination to magnify problems he is confronted with." That certainly isn't a reprimand for "blowing Roswell out of proportion." That same report also says, "A quiet, mature field grade officer. Exceptionally well-qualified in his duty assigment." The next report date 1 May 1948 to 31 July 1948, says, "Highly qualified for his present duty assignment and highly recommended for intelligence work at higher level." In the report dted 26 Dec 1948 to 30 Jun 1949, it says, "Major Marcel exercises superior judgement in the economical management of the personnel and resources under his supervision.... He has an acute sense of responsibility personal trustworthiness, and moral character.... He is a very intelligent officer and has a wide range of capabilities.... He is never satisfied with his work and has exacting standards..." Looks to me as if there is nothing negative in his file. Had I found anything I would have reported it here because we can't have an honest discussion if information is withheld. And, to make this argument about his reprimanded even more ridiculous, he was promoted to lieuteant colonel on November 20, 1947, which means he was selected for promotion earlier. If there was a problem with Jesse Marcel the promotion would never have been made. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: Michael Hesemann <100660.3672@CompuServe.COM> Date: 02 May 97 16:18:20 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 20:12:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: Michael Hesemann 100660,3672@Compuserve.com Date: Fri, 2 May 1997, 21.51 CET To: Updates@globalserve.net Subject: New Roswell Book! >From: Pamela7@aol.com >Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:32:50 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: NEW ROSWELL BOOK! Hi Pamela, >Frankly, I expected from Korff yet another Roswell book that really did not >answer questions or settle any issues definitively, but this is not the case. >In fact, after reading now every other book on Roswell ever published, I >nominate Mr. Korff's book by far as "the best," hands down! As a victim of Korffs latest slander and character assassination attempt I have to warn you - Korff is far away from being an honest, objective researcher, although he plays this role, I have to admit, pretty well. >I am embarrassed to have purchased, for example, Michael Hesemann and Phil >Mantle's book on Roswell. Korff not only convincingly disproves their claims >in his book, but having independently checked Hesemann's claims for myself >now, he is not telling the truth I am afraid. How did you get the book? It comes out in the US in three weeks, in the UK in June. Not only that Korff, lacking psychic abilities, couldn't have disproved anything of an upcoming book, I wonder how you could have purchased, read AND checked our book THREE WEEKS BEFORE PUBLICATION. Are you a time traveller? Can you please give me a simple little example where "I am not telling the truth". You are wrong, I'm afraid, and I can prove every single claim I make with a footnote for reference, videotaped interviews and documents. >I now understand that Mr. >Korff is not a skeptic but does seek to improve the UFO field by helping >clear out the bunk cases from the ones that might be real. Should I recommend him for canonisation on my next meeting with senior staff of the Vatican? If, for him, Roswell is "bunk", what, may I ask, is real for him? BTW, may I ask, Pamela, if you are engaged with him or if there is any other personal reason for your blind admiration of KKK which, I'm afraid, is rationally unexplainable? >There is nothing like facts, and as Korff >demonstrates after investigating Roswell for 16 years (much longer than >Hesemann) he has finally found the truth. Korff also grew up with Friedman >and Bill Moore as a kid and he presents a lot of new information on them as >well which puts them in their proper perspective. You are right, Pam, I investigate Roswell "only" since 1990, although I am into UFO research since 1978, for 18 years by now. On the other hand, I doubt your claim that Korff investigates the case for 16 continous years, since he disappeared from the scene after Bill Moore misused him (as a minor) to write that naughty little thing on Billy Meier, calling him "the most infamous hoax in ufology". Moore new that no one can sue little Kal and so they did it together this way, using Little Kal as a frontman. Does he, in his book, also reveal the other naughty little stories about his relationship to Bill Moore who, as we all know, did some naughty little things to Paul Bennewitz and others to do a favour for his "godfathers", the "Big Birds" of the "Aviary", as he confessed on the MUFON Conference in Las Vegas? >But Hesemann has no reason to dislike Korff for >doing a competent job. Hesemann instead should look himself in the mirror and >blame himself for continuing to blow it on two very important cases: Mr. >Meier's and now Roswell. I never wrote a book on Billy Meier, I just formed my own opinion on him by investigating the case for myself, and I express this opinion on public. Although I admit that the Meier case is contro- versial (and was contaminated), there is NO WAY to refuse the credible statement of over a hundred credible Roswell witnesses. I wouldn't dislike Korff for "doing a competent job" if he would only do so. Unfortnately his silly Meier Book is full ob LIES, his "sources" (including the spiritist Hans Jacob, who believed Meier is the Antichrist) are more than dubious and his "photo analysis" obviously manipulated on his very own computer. Korff LIED on his lectures and workshops, and when I con- fronted him with one of his lies (he claimed he speaks German fluently, I spoke to him in German, he didn't understand a word) he claimed that I, as a German, am not able to speak my language thanks to a "speaking inability" (fully invented by Korff), although I SPOKE to Millions of Germans on TV and over 30.000 on my lecture tour and everybody clearly understood me. After I caught him "in the act" of lying, I classify him as a patho- logical liar and lost all my respect for him. > I will never buy or read anything Mr. Hesemann and > Mantle ever publish again. Since, as I told you, the book is not on the market yet, I heavily doubt your claim that you ever bought it. Please tell me when and where and, just to prove it, tell me the first word on page 117. If you are able to do so, please e-mail me your address, so I can send you some flowers and a sincere apology. Greetings, Mike Hesemann, Dusseldorf/Germany Search for other documents from or mentioning: 100660.3672 | 3672 |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 3 Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen From: Mike Hesemann. 100660,3672@compuserve.com Date: Fri, 01 May 1997, 22.21 CET Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 20:14:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen >From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com >Date: Thu, 01 May 97 14:49:34 cst >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen >Are you really making the case that it is more likely that Meier >and Adamski were telling the truth, and that the world-wide >scientific establishment is engaged in a deliberate coverup >regarding conditions on Venus? Did George Adamski ever claim he visited Venus? No, he only said that this is what the "space brothers" told him. There are many possible explanations. Do they have bases on Venus? Do they live underground? Did they lie to Adamski? Do they live on Venus, but in a parallel world/different dimensions. WE DON'T KNOW and so did he. Does this prove he lies? Surely not. >Are you saying that con-men and crackpots don't exist, or that >you find Adamski's and Meier's accounts believable? > Yes, I found them believable, because in both cases we have MANY INDEPENDENT WITNESSES and amazing photographic evidence PLUS information received by the contactee of a nature he couldn't know about by himself. Example: Adamski described the "Firefly effect" 8 years before John Glenn did... >Anything is possible. However, we should not be blind to the >possibility that some people just make stuff up for attention or >monetary gain. Then how does it come that neither Adamski nor Meier ever got rich? >In my opinion, Meier and >Adamski "probably" are nuts and/or con-men. What do you find to be >"probable" in these cases? The evidence, see above. Greetings, Mike Search for other documents from or mentioning: 3672 |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: New Canadian UFO Book (fwd) From: "Joe Daniels (UFO JOE)" <ufojoe@cron-2.mco.on.ca> Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 02:06:10 -0400 Subject: Re: New Canadian UFO Book (fwd) Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:08:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Joe Daniels (UFO JOE) <ufojoe@cron-2.mco.on.ca> To: Geoff Dittman <umdittm0@cc.UManitoba.CA> Subject: Re: New Canadian UFO Book (fwd) On Fri, 2 May 1997, Geoff Dittman wrote: > "They did not sign and instead reported the incident to the National > Investigations Committe on Aerial Phenomena (NICAP), a civillian > organization of which Keyhoe was *to become director.*" (Emphasis mine) I'm sure it's there, because when I read it I made a mental note, because for years I had made the same mistake. > As for the Avro Car as an explanation for the Falcon Lake case, I agree > with you. Right now it seems quite laughable. Perhaps reading that > chapter will change my opinion (but I doubt it). Yes, that and the Wilbert Smith theories really bother me for a good reason. Debunkers and skeptics will now be able to claim that all daylight disks were "AVRO" cars and that any high profile person with intimate knowledge of the UFO/Alien phenomenon will be labeled as a target of dis-information. > p.s. If you have an Ark, send it this way. :-( God, I hope you guys are alright up there! I made the STUPID mistake of sending Rutkowski some local sightings and he near bit my head off, with good reason. I really had no idea things were that bad up there, but I'm now taking a special interest in the news. I think they said it should crest today and that the whole thing should be over in about a week. Anyhow, I'll take a quick look through my copy of that book and see if I can spot that Keyhoe comment. .--------------------------------------------. | From UFO Joe Daniels http://cron-2.mco.net | | 37122-769 Southdale Rd. London, ON N6E-3B3 | | An active member of CUFORN & MUFON Ontario | `--------------------------------------------'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: New Canadian UFO Book (fwd) From: "Joe Daniels (UFO JOE)" <ufojoe@cron-2.mco.on.ca> Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:14:20 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 02:06:58 -0400 Subject: Re: New Canadian UFO Book (fwd) Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:11:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Joe Daniels (UFO JOE) <ufojoe@cron-2.mco.on.ca> To: Geoff Dittman <umdittm0@cc.UManitoba.CA> Subject: Re: New Canadian UFO Book (fwd) On Fri, 2 May 1997, Geoff Dittman wrote: > > I finally started reading that book yesterday. As such I can't give > much of a comment on it. As for Keyhoe and NICAP, you are right in that > Keyhoe was not the founder. But Campagna never said as much; at least > not in the first 70 pages. On page 63, Campagna says: Okay, it's near the top of page 145: "He [Keyhoe] eventually founded the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena, or NICAP for short." .--------------------------------------------. | From UFO Joe Daniels http://cron-2.mco.net | | 37122-769 Southdale Rd. London, ON N6E-3B3 | | An active member of CUFORN & MUFON Ontario | `--------------------------------------------'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Lake Ontario - news.group item, 1993 From: Sean <Tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:15:10 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 02:14:23 -0400 Subject: Lake Ontario - news.group item, 1993 >Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 09:58:43 -0400 >From: Jennifer Jarvis <jarvis@globalserve.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: NEWSGROUP ITEM 1993. >For your information..... >From: mz@moscom.com (Matthew Zenkar) >Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors >Subject: Re: UFO base in Lake Ontario? >Date: 16 Mar 93 17:20:00 GMT >Organization: Moscom Corp., E. Rochester, NY >Well, enough about the Edmund Fitzgerald. >I live in Rochester, NY about 3 miles from Lake Ontario. I know a local >UFO researcher who has told me about several sightings over Lake Ontario. >Some of the sightings have occurred near the Ginna Nuclear Power Plant >(for those who don't remeber, that is the plant that sprung a leak in >a steam generator tube in I believe 1982 and made the national news). >Apparently, there have been sightings around one other Nuke plant near >Oswego, NY. >As to a base, there has been at least one report of a sighting where a UFO >was seen coming out of the water in Lake Ontario. But don't get your >hopes up. There are no photos or video tapes. It has been well noted that over here in England UFO sightings are very *popular* around nuclear powerplants, I wonder is it like that all around the world? It has been suggested by some that there are two reasons for this. 1)The *alien's* are interested in our *primitive* technology. 2)(even stranger) That some particular alien race (I forget thier name) have been "assigned" the "job" of keeping an eye on the reactors incase of a catastrophy. One begins to wonder what they did wrong with Chernobyl? In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible. Sean Jones http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com Date: Fri, 02 May 97 16:40:38 cst Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 02:15:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen >Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 23:37:50 -0500 (CDT) >From: MAC TONNIES <0212104@ACAD.NWMISSOURI.EDU> To: >updates@GLOBALSERVE.NET >Subject: Adamski and Meier >If one accepts that the United States was secretly aware of the >reality of genuine UFOs in the 1950s, then supporting the efforts >of a lunatic fringe con-man like Adamski would help ensure the >comfortable public opinion that "UFOs are nonsense." >This may have happened with Adamski. I've read some intriguing >things about his ability to aquire visas for his international >UFO lectures...perhaps he was operating as a dupe for U.S. >counterintelligence. As long as Adamski wasn't touring the East Bloc, he shouldn't have had any more -- or less -- trouble getting visas than any other traveler. >Similarly, Meier might have received from help from informed >governmental sources in order to help further UFOs' place in >society one of mythology and delusion. >Or, of course, both of these men could simply be naturally >charismatic charlatans. I've read nothing that's convinced me >that either has had any genuine extraterrestrial experiences. In "Revelations" Jacques Vallee teases us with the assertion that some French ufologists had uncovered links between the UMMO perpetrators and the Lyndon LaRouche organization. The similarities between the UMMO and Meier sagas are striking. A KGB connection in the pre-glasnost Cold War era was also a possibility. I explored these possibilities in "UFOs: Politics and Deception" which was published in the MUFON UFO Journal. If you can't find a copy, let me know and I'll forward the text file. Regards, Vince Search for other documents from or mentioning:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com Date: Fri, 02 May 97 15:37:54 cst Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 02:13:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:52:35 -0700 (PDT) >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Are contactees ever lied to? In regards to the Meier case, Jim Deardorff wrote: >Now that ufologists can accept that abductees are genuine (since about >1985), one can first ask a question like that about them. Haven't we >read of a lot of abductees being told and shown things that either didn't >turn out to be true, or that conflicted with or contradicted each other? >We have come to realize that most abductees' stories of having been >abducted are true; but does that require us to believe that everything >they are told or shown is also true? Obviously not! So I see no reason >why contactees need have been treated more honestly by their contactors, >especially those whose experiences are supported overwhelmingly through >witnesses' reports as well as UFO photos/movies. Such a contactee would >need to be fed disinformation that would lead ufologists, scientists and >the news media into thinking they are fakes, would they not, in order >that the aliens not blow their own coverup and violate their "Prime >Directive?" Even when discussing the most intriguing abduction cases involving the most credible experiencers, I don't think we (as objective non-experiencers) can classify these cases as anything other than "unknown" at this point. If you believe our putative Visitors are constrained by a "Prime Directive," how do you reconcile this with their apparent willingness to pose their flying saucers for one particular human in one particular geographic location? I agree that there is probably disinformation being disseminated, but I personally believe it's being disseminated by Meier. >I don't know enough about Adamski's case to try to defend him; obviously >IF he met aliens who told him they were from Venus (or rather the >surface of Venus), we suspect he was fed a lot of bull. Meier was told >by Semjase that Adamski was a fake; was that mostly bull? If someone makes unverifiable claims that are later proved to be false when the means for verification are developed, is it really more likely that aliens misinformed the claimant, or that the claimant merely lied to begin with? >In the case of Meier, he didn't meet "Venusians" and didn't see any >signs of life on Venus on his five-day space trip to various spots. He >didn't see the surface of Venus at all until they emerged below cloud >base, when he was told they were down to 40 km above the surface. He >describes it (this was following his 15 July, 1975, contact) as wild >looking and covered with craters, with some not-too-high mountains on >one side. Radar mapping has revealed that Venus is not "covered with craters." Again, is it more likely that Meier was deceived by aliens, or that he made the whole thing up and his lies were later exposed by subsequent technology that wasn't available when he originally made his claim? <snip> >But a key question is: would the aliens want their contactee to be taken >seriously by ufologists first, then by scientists, then by the news >media and the general public, after having gone to such pains over 50 >years not to let the coverup come unraveled prematurely with respect to >UFO sightings in general or abductions either? You seem to want it both ways, Jim: a) The aliens are constrained by a "Prime Directive" forbiding their exposure to, and contact with, humans; and b) The aliens are ambiguously revealing their presence to, and making contact with, a single man out of 6 billion. Clearly, both arguments can't be correct. If aliens did want to make contact with the human race, all they'd have to do is get on the radio. Regards, Vince Search for other documents from or mentioning:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com Date: Fri, 02 May 97 17:03:14 cst Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 02:16:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen >Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 00:25:38 -0400 (EDT) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen Regarding the Meier saga, I wrote: >>Are you really making the case that it is more likely that Meier >>and Adamski were telling the truth, and that the world-wide >>scientific establishment is engaged in a deliberate coverup >>regarding conditions on Venus? <snip> >>As I've pointed out already, that would typify the reaction of a >>True Believer when his "faith" is challenged by scientific fact. >>Why do you have such a strong emotional investment in these two >>men's tales? If Meier and Adamski were proved to be nuts and/or >>con-men, how would that affect the overall reality of the UFO >>phenomenon? To which Michael Christol replied: >I don't have an "emotional investiment." It's no skin off of >my nose whether or not a person knows whether the Meier and >Adamski cases fact or fiction. >You have chosen to assume that the two men are frauds, at least >that is how I interpret your messages. You seem to be worried >more about them than you need to. I wonder if you were alive >when Adamski was allegedly having his contacts? >If so, did you make any attempt to contact Adamski personally? >What energy have you expended to "prove" your contentions? >The same questions can be asked of your remarkes about Meier. >Have you tried to contact Meier or those at his farm? >I see that members of that "group???," including one who claims >to be Billy Meier has been posting in the Updates lately. ARe >you going to answer those claims, and call Mr. Meier a demented >person? A Hoaxer? A conman? If not, why not. You have the >perfect opportunity to ask the man himself and he will reply >to you. >So, Vince take it to Meier! Quit bantering with me. It's a >waste of time. I don't have to go see Meier (or Adamski). I have their words and writings to consider. After consideration, I concluded that they were kooks and/or con-men. >>Are you saying that con-men and crackpots don't exist, or that >>you find Adamski's and Meier's accounts believable? >Need I answer this question, Vince? I will only say, that I >was not there...I don't have any special insight, pro or con, >into these cases. I am not in a position to "judge" their >motives. I will not make slanderous remarks against the >character of these people. You may do as you please. Expressing an honest opinion about people who have actively sought celebrity is not "slander." And yes, we all make judgments about people all the time. Don't you make judgments about whom you want to associate, or politicians you might vote for? Have you ever had jury duty? >>Anything is possible. However, we should not be blind to the >>possibility that some people just make stuff up for attention or >>monetary gain. >I don't doubt that at all, Vince...the question is: Which >people? That is the question, isn't it? >>I'm not ignoring the possibility that these guys may have had a >>"core" experience. As you say, anything is possible. It's the >>"probable" that I find to be more useful. In my opinion, Meier and >>Adamski "probably" are nuts and/or con-men. What do you find to be >>"probable" in these cases? >Here you go JUDGING again. What qualifications do you have >which justifies your OPINION? "Probably," huh? Don't know for >sure? If I told you my reasons, you would simply make me the >target of your campaign to belittle and humiliate. Are you objecting to my holding an opinion, or for expressing my opinion? >You'll have to explain this statement. I have no idea what sort >of outside force could cause one to become a guru to a UFO cult. >I don't know why you act as if you have no idea of what I am talking >about. You know as well as I, that many people who have claimed to >have experiences with this phenomena, report that they have been >approached by people passing themselves off as "government, or >Air Force," representatives. These people claim that they were >intimidated and in many cases threatened with dire consequences. >Why would Adamski and Meier be any different if there was >anything to their stories. If you will check back, you will see >that Adamski did indeed claim that he received threats from time >to time. I also know that Meier has had attempts on his life on >several occasions. Why is everything always a CULT, Vince? >A cult is defined as a "religious group." I see nothing to >indicate that either Meier or Adamski established "religious >groups." An important distinction: Adamski, Meier and others CLAIMED to have had attempts on their lives. If some shadowy government agency wanted them dead, they would have died. They didn't, so.... The bottom line: Those kind of dramatics are sure to have thrilled the rubes, don't you think? Was Heaven's Gate a religious group? How about the Solar Temple? Is there much difference between these groups' theology and Billy Meier's? Regards, Vince Search for other documents from or mentioning:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: Jean van Gemert <jeanvg@dds.nl> Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 07:24:17 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 02:17:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >From: Pamela7@aol.com >Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:32:50 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: NEW ROSWELL BOOK! >On a similar note, Mr. Stanton Friedman and the terrible weaknesses in his >claims are also exposed by Korff and there is new information on how >unreliable the major Jesse Marcel was because you see his performance reports >printed in Korff's book which show he was reprimanded for blowing Roswell out >of proportion. Do you have some specific information on "how unreliable Marcel was" and those records? A few quotes would be nice. Thanks! Jean __________________________________________________________________________ Science, Logic, and the UFO Debate: http://www.primenet.com/~bdzeiler/index.html -----------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 CSETI Update: MUFON and Oberg Comment From: legion@werple.net.au Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 07:28:03 +1000 (EST) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 02:11:28 -0400 Subject: CSETI Update: MUFON and Oberg Comment ==+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++== >From CNI News -- Vol. 3, No. 4, Part 2 -- May 1, 1997 Global News on Contact with Non-human Intelligence ==+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++== CSETI'S DC BRIEFINGS ELICIT WIDELY VARIED RESPONSES MUFON Fears Setback; Skeptic James Oberg Lauds Effort Dr. Steven Greer and members of CSETI (Center for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence) and Project Starlight hosted a series of invitation-only events in Washington, DC in early April for the purpose of presenting eyewitness testimony and documents on UFOs to interested members of Congress and other government leaders. Greer hopes this and followup efforts will result in Congressional hearings on the UFO controversy. Immediately following the events, which occurred mainly on April 9 and 10, Greer issued a number of reports and press releases which have circulated widely on the internet. As might be expected, the mainstream press mostly ignored the story -- mostly, but not entirely. A number of major news publications actually covered the events in some depth, including U.S. News & World Report (4/14 issue) and the Fort Worth Star Telegram (Ft. Worth, Texas, 4/15). One of the best stories ran in the London Sunday Times on April 27. Excerpts from that story are presented below. But not everyone was pleased with Greer's efforts, notably MUFON (Mutual UFO Network) headquarters in Seguin, Texas. MUFON issued a memo suggesting Greer might have done more harm than good, and might have misappropriated UFO briefing documents as well. The text of MUFON's statement follows the Sunday Times story. One of the least expected responses came from well-known UFO skeptic James Oberg, who said he was favorably impressed with Greer's efforts and offered some ideas for further action. CNI News thanks Mr. Oberg for permission to reprint his statement as the concluding part of this story. [Note: The following texts are reprinted as originally received and may contain minor factual errors.] UFO GROUP WANTS CONGRESS TO EXAMINE "PROOF" OF ALIENS The Sunday Times April 27, 1997 An American UFO research group says it will go public with its evidence of aliens if a congressional hearing is not held into the existence of extraterrestrial spacecraft. The Centre for the Study of ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence (CSETI) claims to have 50 witnesses of UFOs who have, or have had, high-level security clearance positions in America's armed forces, intelligence services and military contractors. The hearing would be needed because it would protect witnesses who would be breaking national-security oaths if they gave evidence elsewhere. Also, a congressional hearing could subpoena additional witnesses who could be imprisoned if they lied under oath. Steven Greer, a casualty doctor who is the leader of CSETI, arranged a briefing this month at which he claimed representatives from 30 congressmen's offices were present, including several congressmen. He hopes that those who attended will take CSETI's claims more seriously and back his call for a full hearing. "We're not asking anybody suddenly to believe in UFOs, because nine out of every 10 times, what you hear is absolute rubbish," says Greer. "We just want them to see there is sufficient evidence to warrant a hearing where we can present our case. That is all we are asking. We hope at least one of them is brave enough to back us." Greer claims to have photographic, video and documentary evidence that shows the military has tracked and even recovered UFO craft, as well as their occupants. Greer's campaign has the backing of Edgar Mitchell, a former astronaut who in 1971 became the sixth man to walk on the moon. "The body of evidence is just so overwhelming," says Mitchell. "The real thing here is that the witnesses are not just everyday people who have seen a UFO. These people have had top-security clearance within the military and their contractors. They deserve to be able to tell Congress what they know so we can begin to get to the bottom of this thing." [end Times excerpts] [The following statement was issued on April 26 by "MUFON Staff" at "MUFON HQ," in Seguin, Texas. Thanks to Ed Komarek of Operation Right to Know and Skye Turell for circulating this memo.] MUFON wants everyone on this list to know that Greer is not the only person or group that is trying to work on capital hill. The UFO Research Coalition [MUFON, Center for UFO Studies (CUFOS) and Fund for UFO Research (FUFOR)] has been working for over two years at grooming contacts in Washington, and we are sure Greer was aware of that. It has been brought to our attention that the briefing document Greer used looks very much like the one we paid to have put together. If he did use our material he did it without permission and against our wishes. [This is a reference to "The Unidentified Flying Objects Briefing Document" published in 1996 with the financial backing of Laurance Rockefeller.] We have not fully assessed the impact of Greer's overstated claims, or the validity of the claimed witnesses he presented, but our suspicion is that he has set back our 2 years of efforts, creating work instead of making progress. Since the press seemed to ignore the Greer move we hope that this is an indicator that only a little damage was done. If Greer really wants to do something, he needs to persuade his money support to get behind our effort, so we can make some real progress with a common sense, conservative, well thought through planned approach using people that know there [sic] way around, and know how to conduct themselves. Any one having deep detail as to what went on in Washington; who was there, by name and position, and who said what, or any other details that would allow us to make a damage assessment, it would be appreciated if you would pass it to us. MUFON Staff [A completely different kind of response comes from James Oberg, reprinted here with his permission. Mr. Oberg, considered by some UFO researchers to be an arch debunker like Phil Klass, describes himself as follows: "I am a lifelong UFO buff, a founding fellow of CSICOP and longtime associate of Phil Klass, a colleague and friend of J. A. Hynek from Northwestern days, am fascinated with the folklore aspects of the UFO beliefs in our culture, and a specialist in spaceflight operations, both American and Russian... My book 'UFOs and Outer Space Mysteries', Donning Press, 1982, is subtitled 'Suggestions from a sympathetic skeptic', and that's how I still see myself." Mr. Oberg's letter contains highly intriguing references to government use of UFO information for purposes largely unanticipated or ignored by UFO researchers. His full text follows.] Open letter to Dr. Greer of CSETI: I applaud CSETI's efforts to strip away the "government secrets prosecution" barrier to the disclosure of people's stories about UFO experiences and I fully support the call for a government declaration that all legal constraints against disclosure be dissolved. I've always felt that claims of fear of such prosecution as an excuse by people not to "go public" was often merely a gimmick not to have to take responsibility for the authenticity of such stories, since as far as I've been able to tell -- and through OMNI's "Project Open Book" we searched far and wide for examples -- nobody has ever been arrested or charged -- much less convicted and sentenced -- for actually doing so. But don't stop merely with legalizing disclosure of all -- if any -- government secrets about "real UFOs". I believe there is a far more valuable body of "secrets" that will help understand the decades of UFO phenomena that the world has experienced. This deals with government-related activities which directly or indirectly led to public perceptions that UFOs might be real when they weren't. Sometimes these actions were carefully orchestrated in advance, sometimes they were localized impromptu ad hoc damage-limitation tactics. But from my own experience, they seem to have played a tremendous and widely unappreciated role in inciting and enflaming public interests in UFOs while deflecting public attention from real highly-classified government activities. I'm referring to situations where government representatives -- officials, military officers, any employees -- used "UFO" as a convenient camouflage for other official classified activities (such as retrieval of crashed aircraft or nuclear weapons or other objects), or used artificial "UFO stories" (in oral, written, photographic, film, etc.) form as "tracers" in studying the function of security safeguards and personnel psychological responses, or used "UFO" as an excuse (either intended or accidental) to cover-up improper, forbidden, or diplomatically delicate activities (such as aviation incidents involving dangerous accidental or deliberate close passes or intercepts of civilian airliners, or overseas excursions of agents on intelligence missions where deflection of local perceptions was useful, or to conceal from the country of origin the possession of foreign military hardware), or played pranks and jokes on intended or accidental targets, or any other activity that the government -- or any part of it -- wanted to keep hidden, knowing that having it thought of as "UFO-related" would consign it to the never-never-land of myth and nuttiness, thus keeping mainstream media attention to a minimum. And it's worked!! Please include such "UFO secrets" in your list of disclosure demands, and ask that any government personnel involved in the use (or misuse and abuse) of such practices be immune from any government prosecution for the actions which led them to take such measures. Once such immunity is verifiably granted, I have my own list of people who have privately talked to me over the years and who were involved in government activities leading to a number of well-known "UFO cases", which can be released and which can help understand where and how much of today's UFO mythology originated. This is a serious proposal deserving of serious consideration, and promises immensely fruitful results. James Oberg ==+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++===+++==
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Is there a doctor in the house? From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 01:02:48 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 02:19:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Is there a doctor in the house? Hi Errol, hi All, I was informed by the Spooky Duke Himself (Peter Brooksmith, aka 'Mendoza') that this list has grown to many hundreds of members! It's time for me to ask, "IS THERE A DOCTOR IN THE HOUSE?" If (any) of our new members are physicians, could you please take the time to visit the Intruders Foundation website and peruse the following two pages: www.spacelab.net/~jvif/physev.html www.spacelab.net/~jvif/physev2.html They are photos of the marks and scars on the bodies of the abductees. Your professional oppinions and comments would be most welcome and would be added to other data that has been gleaned from contacts with other physicians. Your anonymity is absolutely guaranteed. Any time you can give to this will be greatly appreciated. We are already aware of the "punch biopsy" scars and that they appear over *perfectly healthy tissue*. Comments on these marks in particular (as they are almost ubiquitous among the abductees) would be especially welcome. You may contact me privately at my e-mail add. jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Thanking you in advance, John Velez * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Congratulations Steven Greer & CSETI From: Don Ledger <dledger@istar.ca> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 14:26:02 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 02:23:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Congratulations Steven Greer & CSETI Hi List, I swore I was going to stay out of this one but....., > Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 20:12:24 -0400 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: "S. Baldwin" <sblee@stc.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Congratulations Steven Greer & CSETI > >>He came across as reasonably level headed and the newscaster although > >>unfortunately tying everything in the "x-files" bag, was less than > >>his usual normal smirking self when UFO's are mentioned. > >I'm glad they gave it some air time, but most stations use it as "filler" > >when the news is slow. My guess is that the story will pop up for the next > >several weeks, as many stations hold the story back until it's needed. It > >may be featured in a number of markets during the weekend, depending on how > >many stations Greer/CSETI contacted for interviews. > Yes, you are probably right unfortunately, it was not on the > "prime time" news but the less watched 10pm. It was just good > to see it taken semi seriously here in the South. Ah well, > sigh.....maybe next time. > Susan Susan touches on one of the biggest problem in Ufology...the attitude of the electronic media and the press (hereinafter called "media"). They are, I think, in most cases unwitting dupes in a non directed disinformation campaign started many years ago, probably by the military. Since I don't buy into the super conspiracy scenario I think the media just grabbed the ball and ran with it. At any rate I have run into the "attitude" of the media for so long now it is second nature to distrust their motives on all fronts, including talk shows etc. (though I have seen a few that were very fair). Though nothing may be said in the body of the show, they will depart from their usual signature music to play some of that '50s outer space music which tends to set the tone for what went on before. In one case I took a TV station to task for this and made it known that the next time they would have to find someone else to ridicule and mentioned in passing that since this was a phone in show and this time their switchboard had been overwhelmed by calls (they brought it up) thereby indicating a heavy viewership which of course is the lifeblood of TV and all media, that perhaps the competitive TV station not too far away would get that viewership the next time around. You don't have to take crap from these people. Sit them down one by one and show them the facts, let them see you and hear you and in some cases you can raise doubts. It's too big an issue to get into here, but there are ways to combat this, and we need them to fight the military/government control of this issue. I can go on at length about this because I have some expertise in this area, but perhaps this issue should be saved for dicussion on its own. Regards, Don Ledger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Spooky Duke in the Big Apple From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 01:40:28 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 02:21:30 -0400 Subject: Spooky Duke in the Big Apple Hi Errol, hi All, I had the pleasure of spending two afternoons with the notorius Mendoza. (aka Peter Brookesmith) He's a genuinely bright, charming, funny and down to earth person. Peter's in town researching a book he's writing which will deal with UFO related abduction accounts and some theories/explanations that Peter wants to explore. While here in NY he be met with Budd Hopkins, Greg Sandow and myself. I wish him a safe trip home after his stay here.(And I hope he doesn't get busted for smoking ciggies in the 'loo' on the long flight home! <G>) I disagree with Peter on *almost everything* concerning UFO's and especially anything connected to the abduction phenom. But I can't help liking the hell out of him. I believe that almost in spite of our dramatic differences in views/beliefs and the fact that I KNOW I'll be pissed as hell when I read his book,... I have made a good and hopefully lifelong friend. <G> Gods speed Mendoza. John Velez * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 {73} part 1 - United Kingdom UFO Network From: United Kingdom UFO Network <ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:39:05 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 01:54:52 -0400 Subject: {73} part 1 - United Kingdom UFO Network ______ _______ ____ ------ / / // ____// |---------------------------------------------- U K / / // ___/ / / ' 2nd May, 1997 / / // / / / / N E T W O R K part 1 - Issue 73 --- (_____//__/ -- (_____/------------------------------------------------ This issue comes in 2 parts. If any part is missing please mail: ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk giving the issue number. The issue will be reposted to you. Please put the details as below in the subject section e.g. Repost {73} The United Kingdom UFO Network - a free electronic magazine with subscribers in over 40 countries. In this issue: --------------- * Editorial * Air Traffic Controller incidents * United Kingdom News [UK 1] Something out there! [UK 2] Cosmos Computer takes on the universe [UK 3] WW2 Ghost Plane Riddle on Moors [UK 4] Spooks.com - Secret Service Agency, MI5 [UK 5] Pigs might fly say magnetic scientists [UK 6] Aliens... over Brum [UK 7] A sci-fi telescope for finding life in space [UK 8] Man sights UFO over pub [UK 9] UFO sighting Newport Gwent August 1983 [UK 10] Just an observation. [UK 11] Another UFO has been seen this time in Bretforton. [UK 12] Hinckley sighting, Leicestershire * World News [W 1] Is this the answer to the great Pyramid puzzle? [W 2] New theory rewrites evolution of chimps [W 3] Saved by the Aliens [W 4] A personal story [W 5] NASA Yes, it's true. We got hacked. We're back. [W 6] UFO group wants Congress to examine 'proof' of aliens [W 7] John Carpenter New Videos Editorial --------- Internet Relay Chat made easier For those of you having read the below in the last issue and who are using Microsoft's Internet Explorer web browser we have found the following problems. It appears that currently Microsoft's Internet Explorer web browser is unable to use the java program that enables it to connect to the IRC. However if you are using the Netscape web browsers everything should work fine. We'll keep you updated as and when things change. Connecting to our weekly IRC (Internet Relay Chat) meetings on Saturday nights is now easier than ever before. Our meeting's begin at 11pm (2300hrs) UK time. Everyone is welcome. By simply using your Java compatible Web Browser and going to either of the below sites, you will find pages there to join in using your actual Web Browser. Give it a try...it's easy. http://www.holodeck.demon.co.uk/ http://www.crowman.demon.co.uk/ For those of you using any of the IRC programs, further connecting details can be found at the end of this e-zine. Air Traffic Controller incidents -------------------------------- In issue {71} of the e-zine I published the below incident which happened to me recently. From this I had a mail from Bren McCartney who has been an Air Traffic Controller at Heathrow for 25+ years. Following this is a mail I sent to Bren and his subsequent reply. And as this article is about Air Traffic Controllers we round up with a report from the current issue of CNI News. Bren McCartney has very kindly agreed to do an e-mail interview for us. All questions over the next few weeks will be collected and finally sent to Bren as a single mail. The resulting questions and answers will be published at a later date. Here is your chance to put some questions to an Air Traffic Controller with over 25 years service. If you have a question/s to put to Bren send your mail to: ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk In the subject section put: ATC QUESTION --- Source: United Kingdom UFO Network - issue {71} uk.ufo.nw Dave says: I recently had the chance to visit Air Traffic Control (ATC) at Birmingham Airport. Working at the airport enabled me to arrange a visit for myself and two colleagues. ATC at Birmingham is a relatively small affair compared to the likes of say Gatwick and Heathrow. Over the past eleven years this was probably my fourth visit. The one thing that has always struck me is just how interested they all appear to be in their respective jobs. Nothing had changed on this visit except that over the last few years a fair amount of equipment appears to have been updated. While we were in the radar operators room having the various blips and smudges that were moving around the screen explained to us, I could not pass up the opportunity to ask the inevitable question. I'm sure the majority of you would have done the same. It did cause my two colleagues to look at me with embarrassed smiles. Their interest in ufology is near zero. However I asked the operator if over the years they came across many unidentified objects on radar and if so how did they log them. He asked me what I meant. I replied "UFOs". In about one second flat he looked at me, smiled and said "No" and carried on discussing the radar. I got the distinct impression that that was the end of that and any further questions were going to get me nowhere. What did I expect really. Nothing I suppose. I know for a fact that most if not all UK ATC's record any strange situations in a 'log' book. Another colleague who has seen Birmingham's 'book' but not had access to its contents told me of its existence but stated "they will never show it to you". This leads me onto a question. Do any of you out there know of similar 'books' held by ATC's? Have you ever seen one? Do you know anyone who has? Send in your comments to us. If we publish your mail and you wish to remain anonymous please inform us. In the subject area of you mail put: ATC's SECRET BOOK. --- From: Bren McCartney Date: Saturday 5th April 1997 Occupation: Air Traffic Controller at Heathrow Airport Hi. Just found your web site and downloaded Issue 71. I was fascinated to read the report on the visit to Birmingham ATC. However, I would urge you NOT to pay much attention to the so called "ATC SECRET BOOK". I have been a Heathrow Controller for 25+ years and I am also a UFO nut! There are no "secret" ATC books. Every ATC unit has a log book - and the old Heathrow ones are - I believe - kept at the Public records Office at Kew. An ATC Log Book is exactly what it says - a log of events - and it is maintaine by the Duty ATC Supervisor. All sorts of things are logged ranging from serviceability of navigation aids to the visit of VIPs to the Control Room. Naturally, a report of a UFO would constitute a loggable occurrence but, having served as an ATC Supervisor at Heathrow for many years, I can assure you that such occurrences are pretty rare! In my experience, when a member of the public has rung up with a UFO report it has been possible to explain it away as aircraft navigation lights. I personally experienced two "UFO events", which genuinely terrified me, when I worked in Africa 30 years ago but I haven't experienced any such event here in the UK. Incidentally, I used to be an investigator for BUFORA... then I saw those goons on Reigate Hill with light bulbs in cocoa tins - "UFO detectors". I retain my deep interest in the subject but do NOT anticipate ever learning the "truth" in my lifetime... I'm 53 years old. I guess the guys I work with breakdown to around 10% "believers", 30% "don't know" and 50% "no way" when it comes to UFOs! Of course, we see hundreds of unidentified objects on our radar's every day, but most are light aircraft or gliders operating quite legitimately in UK airspace. Remember, aircraft do NOT have to have an ATC service when they are flying outside Controlled Airspace and there are plenty of small aircraft, not equipped with radio, which do just that. When I read the garbage in UFO magazine I have to weep! If you want any more info don't hesitate to contact me. Regards from Bren McCartney --- From: United Kingdom UFO Network To: Bren McCartney Date: Wednesday 9th April 1997 I must also tell you of a meeting that occurred shortly after the last e-zine issue was published. Whilst at work (Birmingham Airport) I was assisting a colleague in our office when two young ladies were shown in. They were from Birmingham's Air Traffic Control office. They were - in a nut shell - trying to get a working idea together whereby a gridded map of the airport and so many thousands of metres outside of the airport could be mapped. These maps would then be held by ATC, the local Police and Fire service. If an accident or incident occurred it would be a simple case of passing the necessary grid reference onto the necessary emergency departments. etc etc etc. The young ladies had not been in the office two minutes when my colleague asked them outright if they had ever seen any UFOs and if so I was the one to talk to because of the e-zine etc etc etc. Well it was so sudden I just wanted the floor to open up and swallow me. I was a little embarrassed as you can imagine. But some good did come of it. The senior lady of the two did infact tell me that she was also a believer in UFOs and had infact seen various strange things herself. She said that she was one of many Air Traffic Controllers in the UK who believed in the subject. She was a reader of UFO Magazine (one of the better one's I have to say Bren). She asked if I would print our e-zine out for her, which I agreed to do. I shall be asking for a meeting with her in the near future. Like your self she said that they saw many UFOs everyday on radar but the vast majority were no more than gliders and light aircraft. Best wishes Dave --- From: Bren McCartney Date: Friday 11th April 1997 Hi Dave. Many thanks for the Email. In principle I would be most pleased to attempt to answer questions concerning ATC and I have no problems with my name and job being published - nobody is going to put the screws on me at work!! However, I don't want to get bogged down too much as I have lots of other interests which take up my time. As I told you, I used to be an investigator for BUFORA and it became obvious that a lot of the people involved in this game simply have no idea what they're talking about so I packed in through sheer frustration. I'm not surprised that the two ladies at Birmingham said that many ATC people are interested in the subject - a number of Controllers I work with are extremely interested in the subject and one recently went to Area 51, and enjoyed the old "heave-ho" treatment from the boys in the dark shades. So often I read in UFO literature about "cover-ups" by the CAA, or other aviation authorities and I KNOW it's simply not true. The Civil Aviation Authority has quite enough "real" work to do without becoming involved in such a bizarre subject and, contrary to popular belief in UFO circles, pilots are not reporting UFOs on a daily basis. I have been an operational Controller in the Heathrow complex for over 25 years. Every day of my working life I speak to a hundred or more aircraft and I have NEVER been involved in any UFO incident during that time. A friend of mine from Wigan recently rang to say he had heard of a "major event" with a large UFO seen hovering over West Drayton (where I work). That was rubbish! The Building I work in is situated in the middle of a large housing estate close to playgrounds with loads of kids around. Also there is a large police presence AND the whole area is visible from the Tower at Heathrow. There is no way in this world that such an "event" could have taken place without thousands of people knowing and the word getting out. For one thing, if a large UFO appeared over West Drayton I, along with many of my co-workers, would run for our lives! I'm afraid that my denial to him was received with the usual "Oh - I suppose you mustn't talk about it" nonsense! If he thinks the CAA is involved in such cover-ups he's sadly mistaken, but he is so paranoid about the subject that nothing will convince him otherwise. He went on to tell me about a huge triangular UFO which had hovered over the M6 one afternoon, stopping the traffic! With several large airports close by, plus the fact that from West Drayton I can view that area on radar, I have to ask what is happening? Some stealth? I asked him why the news didn't appear in the papers - "They've slapped a D-notice on it". Heaven help us if the UFO-fraternity is full of cranks like that. The UFO Magazine, while it's about all we've got, does contain some nonsense, albeit published in good faith. There's a lot of unnecessary sensationalism - e.g. page 15 of the Mar/Apr issue. Middle column, para 4. "Here then, is the confirmation that Britain's airspace is indeed regularly penetrated by 'unknowns'". This statement applies to pretty well every country in the free world, but the vast majority of those "unknowns" are probably innocent gliders, balloons, hang gliders, light aircraft, etc, because no way is every aircraft tracked on radar or even in communication with ATC. On page 59... the comments about the Saudi mid-air collision are puzzling. That mid-air had nothing to do with UFOs - more sensationalism. The 6th paragraph says: "......the data...seems to confirm that Britain's airspace is quite literally a haven for UFOs". I'm sure this is written to appeal to the loonies - to convince them that we're surrounded by flying saucers, whereas there is not a shred of evidence to support this view. I honestly despair at this form of journalism. I have been fascinated by this subject for around 45 years and I am a firm "believer" yet, despite everything I have read and all the people I have met with a similar interest, I am just as ignorant now as I was back in 1953 when I first read a book on UFOs. Remember, all you and I have is 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th.... 10th hand information and there is not one single piece of hard evidence to help us. I remain a firm believer and will be forever curious but I am absolutely 100% certain that I shall leave this earth just as ignorant as I am now. --- Source: CNI News vol.3 part 3 AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER TELLS OF UFO INCIDENTS [The following text is excerpted and paraphrased from a letter sent by the writer to the National UFO Reporting Center and later posted in several newsgroups. The writer's name was withheld by request. For further information, visit the National UFO Reporting Center web site at http://www.ufocenter.com/] An air traffic controller working at Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) says that in the six years he has worked there, he has personally witnessed four unexplained UFO incidents. "My area of jurisdiction [covers] northeast of LAX, out over the Mohave desert (including the Edwards test ranges), and up around the LAS area (including 'Dreamland')," he says. This area includes a large part of the most restricted airspace in the western United States, an area known to host a large amount of top-secret aircraft activity and also rich in UFO reports. The writer says he is kept completely apprised of even the most secret air traffic. "We work closely with the military, and when I am at a sector, there is NOTHING that goes in my sky (military or civilian) without my knowledge. Even the most classified military projects have proper protocol for reservation of airspace, and numerous flight restrictions (they're not about to let their multi-billion dollar projects be sighted or harmed by some dentist's Cessna 172 chugging along for a weekend trip to Vegas)," he says. Codenames or nicknames are assigned to the most secret aircraft. "They'll just call them something else to keep with procedures and restrictions (the Stealth fighter went around as an "A6" fighter when it was classified)," he explains. That being the case, when he sees something that is truly unidentified, he's pretty sure it's not a super-secret military project. And he has seen some unusual things. "In my (only) six years at the Center, I have personally been part of three bizarre encounters, non-military and non-civilian. I'm just one of 15,000 controllers, too, so there have to be many more that go unreported. "We used to have a specific number to report 'UFO' sightings," he says, "but in the late 80's the directive was replaced by an official 'advisory' to tell pilots, if requested, that they should contact a university or research institution, and no further paperwork was required (unless it was a near mid-air [collision])." On one occasion, he saw another controller discuss a UFO incident with his supervisor. "The controller told the supe about the encounter, and after both determined there was nothing on radar, they just kind of shook their heads and rubbed their chins, and that was that. "This I believe is what typically happens," he says. "Nobody knows what to do, really. There is no government 'coverup,' no mirror-sunglassed agents 'debriefing' us in the back room, no military specialists to take reports. But 'UFO' encounters happen. "I've directly been involved in three incidents -- DIRECT involvement. I was there, plugged into the sector, my own eyes were watching the radar, it actually happened! I've been puzzled on all three." The writer describes his three UFO incidents as follows: 1) (Date uncertain, probably 1992) Northeast of LAX, a UAL 747 on climbout, about 24,000 feet (Flight level 240), suddenly said, "Do you show something went right under us?" We didn't; there was absolutely nothing on the radar. The pilot said it "went right under us, opposite direction, about 3 times the normal closure rate," which normally is 900 knots (head-on jets at 450 knots each), so 3 times is about 2700 knots, minus the 450 of the 747 means it was approximately 2,200 knots. We pulled up the primary radar (raw radar returns) and there was absolutely nothing. The pilot said it was "kind of like a rocket, but with something on the top," and it was "about the size of an F-16." I got on the landline to the lower controller to warn him for subsequent aircraft. The only nearby restricted (military) area had no activity at those altitudes, and there were no military aircraft in the area. We told the supe, and he just said "huh." We just shook our heads, and mostly forgot about it, though the pilot did make a report on it and it appeared in Aviation Week and Space Technology. 2) (1995) I was working a UPS jet in descent to ONT (Ontario), as the only controller at the sector. There was ZERO traffic within 30 miles of him, but he said a "large aircraft of some type, no, I'm not sure what it is" just went over and in front of him, crossing right to left. It was about 9 pm local, after sundown. I showed NOTHING on radar, and anything large would show up on primary radar (we see even tiny Piper Cubs). The military restricted airspace R-2508 was completely cold and the airspace turned over to us. I asked the pilot further if he could see the type, and he said, "No, it was just very large, and it had some strange lights." He was very shaken and asked for a number to call in. I gave him the Area's number and told my supe he'd be calling. After they landed (15 minutes later) he called in and talked to my supe. I just told him what I saw -- there was NOTHING on radar, and NO military activity, and again we just shook our heads. The Area Manager (facility boss) was called in and he shook his head and said they "used to have a UFO reporting number, but we don't any more." That was that. 3) (date not given) I was the only controller in the area during the S-L-O-W midnight shift. Two little cargo aircraft within a 200 mile range was all. This was around 3 am. The military airspace (R2508) was cold and was turned over to us. Nothing going on, not even up at Dreamland -- all the military controllers were home in bed. I'm sitting there and I notice a primary target moving across the desert, about 30 miles east of MHV (Mohave), 20 or so north of Edwards and near our sensitive Boron radar site, close enough that the radar picks up everything, even cars on the highway. The target was zipping along about 4 miles between updates, which is about 20 nautical miles per minute, or about Mach 2. Then, within a 1-mile radius, it reversed course and headed the other way. (At 450 knots, jets need about 10 miles or more to reverse course, and at supersonic speeds even more. The SR-71 needs half the state to turn around!). I lost it as it got away from the Boron site, and wasn't sure what to make of it. One hour later the Kern County Sheriff's [Department] called in. I answered -- I was the only controller in the Area. They had several calls about an extremely bright light moving around the area north of Tehachapi. Did we have any aircraft in that area? I was staring right at the scope, right at Tehachapi, and there was nothing, not even a primary target (no ground clutter even). I asked them if it was a flare. He said no, it's been there for a half hour, moving around, no sound, and they had a deputy right there looking at it too. I said we had nothing there, but I'd call him back if I saw anything. I saw nothing. About 30 minutes later the Sheriff called back and said the light "turned off" and was gone. There was nothing on the radar the whole time. [The writer says he will notify the National UFO Reporting center immediately if any such incidents occur on his watch again, so that "you can get the hard data."] LIKE CNI News? If so, please tell others to request delivery of two free issues so they can find out how much they like it too. There's no obligation. Send all trial subscription requests to CNINews1@aol.com with the message "Try News." United Kingdom News ------------------- [UK 1]****** Source: Birmingham Evening Mail newspaper Date: Friday 18th April 1997 Something out there! More than 1,300 lovers of the paranormal, the mysterious and the downright bizarre are expected to flock to a two-day "UnConvention" this weekend to mark the 50th anniversary of UFO research. The event in London is being organised by the Fortean Times, the journal of strange phenomena, and will feature exotic exhibitions and stalls such as a celebration of the Victorian freak show. Welsh vicar Lionel Fanthorpe, presenter of Fortean TV, will be discussing the Creeping Coffins of Barbados and a possible vampire attack in Cumbria near the end of last century. [UK 2]****** Source: BBC Ceefax Newsround Date: Tuesday 15th April 1997. Cosmos Computer takes on the universe Scientists in Cambridge have bought an amazing new 2 million pounds computer which they hope could solve the mysteries of the universe. The Silicon Graphics Origin 2000, which is installed at Cambridge University, is nicknamed Cosmos and has a main memory of 8,000 megabytes. The scientists hope it will help them model a history of the universe from the first fractions of a second after the Big Bang to the present day. [UK 3]****** Source: The Mirror newspaper Date: Wednesday 26th March 1997 WW2 Ghost Plane Riddle on Moors Rescuers can't find 'crash' By Steve Dennis A mystery plane crash that vanished without trace left witnesses and rescuers baffled yesterday. Locals dialled 999 after seeing the plane explode in flames as it hit a remote Yorkshire moor. Emergency services from two counties launched a huge search on Monday night. But despite scouring the moors for 24 hours, not one piece of wreckage was found. Now people in Hope, South Yorks, are talking of a ghost plane after recalling an identical mystery crash two years ago - on the 50th anniversary of a World War Two Dakota coming down nearby. Witness Mariafrance Tattersfield, 39, a former special constable from nearby Sheffield, said: "I know what I saw. None of this adds up." The search began after she and other other witnesses reported a blinding orange flash and billowing smoke as the twin engine crashed on the Pennines above Hope Forest. Fifty police from Yorkshire and Derbyshire, fire and ambulance crews, more than 100 men and dogs from seven mountain rescue teams, an RAF helicopter and the West Yorks police helicopter joined in. Police said: "It certainly is a mystery and extremely baffling - reliable witnesses clearly saw something go down." The spot is just three miles from where the Dakota crashed in 1945, killing all seven Canadian crew. Two years ago postman Tony Ingle, 53, reporting seeing a Dakota crash in the same area. But when he raced to the scene he found only grazing sheep. He said: I don't believe in ghosts and have racked my brains for explanation but there isn't one." [UK 4]****** Source: Internet Magazine Date: April 1997 Spooks.com Secret Service Agency, MI5 is to launch its own Web site in the autumn as part of its policy of greater openness. The service is believed to be working on elaborate security measures to stop hackers breaking into the site. It's rumoured that MI5 is also considering using an e-mail address as a point of contact for informants after the FBI received thousands of emails in response to a request for more information about the TWA crash. [UK 5]****** Source: BBC Ceefax Newsround Date: Tuesday 15th April 1997 Pigs might fly say magnetic scientists British & Dutch scientists have created a giant magnetic field to make small creatures, including frogs, float in mid air. The boffins learned how to magnetise a plant or animal temporarily, then use a force field to hold it up. Incredibly, they say the techniques can be used on humans too, which would be particularly useful for astronaut training. Frogs used in the experiment have all come unscathed. uk.ufo.nw says: according to tv news reports NASA has taken a keen interest in this technology. [UK 6]****** Source: Evening Mail newspaper DateP: Thursday 24th April 1997 Aliens... over Brum A new video recounting close encounters of the alien kind - over Birmingham goes on sale tomorrow. Produced by Heritage Films, the video takes a close look at UFO sightings over Small Heath and Erdington and footage of a crop circle that appeared in Longbridge. There is also the story of the Aston housewife who claimed to have an aliens baby and the abduction of a mother and daughter from Castle Vale. uk.ufo.nw Dave says: While in W.H.Smiths yesterday 30th April 1997 I saw the very same video priced at 12 pounds and 95 pence. [UK 7]****** Source: The Express newspaper Date: Wednesday 9th April 1997 A sci-fi telescope for finding life in space A GIANT telescope may be built to search for life outside our solar system. The plan is to launch it millions of miles into space to scan 300 Sun-like stars within 50 light years. The sci-fi telescope project has been named after scientist Charles Darwin and experts will begin making a detailed assessment this summer of the technology needed. If the scheme is approved by the European Space Agency the telescope would be launched In about 2015. Darwin would be made up of six separate telescopes placed 50 metres apart in space. They would send signals to a central station which would then beam images back to Earth. Dr Alan Penny of the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory at Didcot, Oxfordshire, said the telescope would be able to detect if there were Earth-sized planets near stars and check if they have an atmosphere. He said: "If there is a lot of water in the atmosphere, it would mean the planet probably had oceans. But the most Important discovery would be an ozone layer because that means there is abundant oxygen which can only be generated by life. "If you see ozone, that is a good indication that life exists." Dr Penny will outline the Darwin project to scientists meeting at Southampton University on Friday. [UK 8]****** Source: The Hinckley Times newspaper Date: Thursday 17th April 1997 Man sights UFO over pub A HINCKLEY man claims to have seen lights from an unidentified flying object hovering in the sky over the area. Mr Matthew Buchan (21) believes that life is not confined to this planet alone and thinks he has seen visitors from another world on two separate occasions. Mr Buchan became fascinated with space science at a young age and first saw some unusual lights while out fishing near The Mill On The Soar pub when he was just 15. He said: "I never actually saw the vehicle itself, all I saw was a set of seven lights. Planes normally have no more than five so it was unusual. "They were blue and white and there was also a hazard light which was flashing. The vehicle wasn't moving at all, just hovering over the fields lOOft to 150ft in the air. Then it shot off and the lights disappeared within about two seconds." The second unexplained incident Mr Buchan saw was over the Tin Hat pub on the Hollycroft Estate last month. Again he witnessed a set of lights which he is certain was not from an aircraft. With this fresh in his mind, Mr Buchan joined two groups, the Northampton UFO Research Forum and the Phenomena Research Association in Derby. And he is interested in hearing from anybody who has seen any-thing strange or unexplained in the Hinckley area. If the incident is recent then he will contact experts from one of these two groups who may come out and investigate it further. "I have been trying to get more information about what goes on in the area because I think people in Hinckley must have seen something," said Mr Buchan. "I like to think we are not the only life forms in the solar system." If anyone has any information the subject Mr Buchan would like to be contacted on Hinckley 633708. [UK 9]****** From: <tjbtelem@andover.co.uk> Date sent: Saturday 8th March 1997 UFO sighting Newport Gwent August 1983 Dear David, Hace just discovered your website, very interesting reading, and I thought you might like to know about an experience of mine in Aug 83. It was about 7.00pm and out of my window I saw a bright light, it was to bright for a star, or planet, and was too large. I went to ask a neighbour as to what he thought it was, and we could not decide, UFO was not at ant time mentioned. That is until it moved at great speed and was at the other side of the horizon in a millisecond, yet just as bright. It was there for at least 15 maybe 20 minutes, than started to 'dance' in the sky, it then shot off to where we first saw it, stayed a few minutes and them shot off at incredible speed and gone. We, together with as reported on local radio, several thousand other people phoned the police, who had to take it very seriously, purely due to the numbers of reports. However, I feel that this is more interesting, a few days later, I had a military policeman knock at my door, asking for a statement. >From that moment on I knew and then believed in the existence of UFO's and that the MOD and the government knew exactly what was going on. Question is, why the lies and deceit, when I know for a fact that, by way of the fact I was questioned together with many others with regard the sighting. Just thought you would be interested. William C. Scott uk.ufo.nw says: Just prior to publication we received the below mail from William for which we thank him. From: William Scott <tjbtelem@andover.co.uk> Date sent: Thursday 1st May 1997 Dear Dave, Thanks for your email regarding the sighting in Newport. As I said a couple of days after the sighting by myself and many many others, I received a visit from the military police. The civil police switchboard was jammed with calls reporting the sighting, it was also reported on the then local radio station GB Radio, now Red Dragon. The MP's where obviously interested in this particular siting, they were curtious, but where without any doubt whatever trying to convey that it was explainable, saying that they were not in a position to give details. They went on to say that there would be a perfectly reasonable explanation for what we 'believed' we saw, i.e. met office balloons, (they forget to mention it was an ultra-supersonic model!!) They also said that it was usual practice to follow up reports such as the one we made to civil police. (I did not and do not beleive that at all) Other than that they simply wanted us to repeat to them what we saw, and left by again saying it was explainable. The very fact they came to see us, is enough to tell me that it was not explainable, and had no idea what we saw. Because of this, I am 100% sure that we, we being the planet, are being visited, whats more, the world govenments are fully aware of this. My theory to why they are hiding the truth is because of the effect it will have on religions around the world, and how it would affect the word of the gospel. I also believe that much of todays high technology have come from 'captured' UFO's. in particular digital technology. As far as i'm concerned it is an insult to our intelligence to have us believe that there is nothing out there, for its a mathmatical certain fact that we cannot be alone. Yours sincerley, William C. Scott [UK 10]****** From: Phil Williams <philip@ambridge.win-uk.net> Just an observation. Phil Williams. Wotton under Edge Gloucestershire U.K. While travelling home in the early hours of Saturday morning, (01.20 14th Dec. 96), cold night, clear sky, very good visibility I observed a Blue ball of light falling almost vertically from the sky, (I est. 3deg from vertical). Previously that evening I had seen at least two shooting stars, a third may have been a trick of the light, this object was totally different, no trail as with a shooting star. The object was round, blue but very white, if that makes sense, I was unable to judge size as I had no distance reference and local hills prevented me from seeing if there was any ground impact. Any thoughts, no I don't think it was a ufo but it was an unidentified falling object ! Best wishes Philip Williams [UK 11]****** From: Mike <testar@globalnet.co.uk> Source: The Stratford-upon-Avon Journal Date: Thursday 5th November 1996 Please find attached a copy of a report in our local 'freebie' paper "The Stratford-upon-Avon Journal" dated Thursday December 5th 1996 . On the Tuesday the 26th November my wife Kathy and our son also saw this object and followed it for several minutes before losing site of it . Mike Another UFO..? Another UFO has been seen this time in Bretforton. Following reports of 'weird lights in Harvington and Chipping Campden, another mystery sighting has been reported by Yvonne Lewis. She and her husband Gary were at home at their New Larkborough Farm house last Tuesday when they saw a flying saucer through a window. Mrs Lewis said: "I know it sounds crazy, and perhaps there is an explanation for it, but it really did really did look like a flying saucer. It was going very slowly and we followed it for about 40 minutes with binoculars. I rang the police and they said somebody from Rous Lench had also seen it." However Inspector Ian Browning, of Evesham police, said he did not know of any such reports. [UK 12]****** From: AShortland@aol.com Date: Thursday 1st May 1997 Hinckley sighting, Leicestershire Hello David. I thought I would mail you whilst it is fresh in my mind! At approx 2245hrs I was chatting over the fence at the front of my house, in the dark, to my neighbour who was trying to fix the brake lights on his car. As we spoke we both saw an extremely bright light travel at VERY fast speed over our rooftops in a rough direction of north to South. The colour of the light was a very bright yellow/white. The shape appeared to be eliptical. It made no sound at all. My neighbour stood there with his mouth hanging open and exclaimed "Did you see that!" "I'm glad that you were with me and saw the same thing or else no one would believe me!" I'm thinking of e-mailing the Hinckley Times to add this to the other reports they have compiled recently and over the last years. Best wishes, Charlie. uk.ufo.nw says: Having now questioned Charlie he informed us that he is sure as he can be this was not a meteorite or asteroid. At arms length it was slightly larger than a 10 pence piece. It was impossible to see it's eventual destination as it was seen while looking between Charlie and his neighbours house. World News ---------- [W 1]****** Source: The Daily Telegraph newspaper Date: Friday 21st March 1997 Is this the answer to the great Pyramid puzzle? By Aisling Irwin - Science Correspondent One of the mysteries of the Egyptian Pyramids may have been solved by a Cambridge engineer, who claims that he knows how the builders managed to carry millions of heavy stones into position. Egyptologists have always been impressed by the strength and diligence of the pyramid builders. The Great Pyramid at Giza, for example, required the quarrying and transporting of 2.3 million stones, each weighing about 2.5 tons. Historians and engineers have suggested that the builders used sleds, ropes, levers, pulleys, cradle-like rockers and ramps. Evidence of all these survive, either physically or in pictures. But Dr Dick Parry, a soil mechanics expert in the engineering department of Cambridge University, believes that none of the suggested methods could have worked. He calculated that the chosen method must have been efficient enough to put in place one block every few minutes if the Great Pyramid was built in 20 years, as he said was generally accepted. He had rejected the principal suggestion that the Egyptians pulled the boulders on sleds up ramps that wound round the sides of the pyramid. This would have required between 60 and 80 men per sled - too many for the ramps to sustain, he argued. "The ramp slopes would have had to be no flatter than one in four," he said. "It is recognised even by sled supports that you cannot pull a sled up a one in four slope." Dr Parry also rejected the popular theory that the ancient Egyptians eased the blocks onto cradles which they rocked along. The method was too hazardous and could not cope with narrow pyramid steps, he added. However, small models of these cradles have been discovered by archaeologists alongside model tools. Dr Parry told a Cambridge audience last night that he believed the cradles were used in a completely different way. Four of them could be arranged to form a circular sheath around a block, transforming it from a cuboid into a cylinder. This would move easily on the level. To drag it uphill, the Egyptians could have coiled a long rope around the cylinder. As they pulled the block up the ramp the rope would gradually have uncoiled and the boulder would have rolled upwards, minimising the amount of human strength needed. Dr Parry was invited by Japanese engineering contractors to test his theory in Tokyo, using 2.5 ton blocks. He was delighted to find that the method worked, after some teething problems such as how to steer the system. It took three men to push the block on the level - sled transport would have required 20 to 30 men. It took 16 to 20 men to pull it up a ramp with a one-in-four gradient. With a sled it would have taken 60 to 80 men - too many for the ramp structure. The crucial test was whether about 20 men could pull it up a slope 49ft long in no more than five minutes - the constraints he believes the Egyptians must have worked under. They did it in one minute. "I was pleased," he said. "I was pretty confident but you can never be 100 per cent sure about these things. This explains how they managed to place these blocks so rapidly." Dr Ian Shaw, a specialist in ancient Egyptian technology at the Institute of Archaeology at University College London, said: "It is a very good idea for someone to have a stab at these nitty-gritty questions." But he questioned how certain Dr Parry could be about some of the historical questions. If the Great Pyramid took much longer than 20 years then other methods might have been possible," he said. -[continued in part 2]- Search for other documents from or mentioning: ufo | cninews1 |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Rendlesham From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 16:35:55 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 02:36:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Rendlesham Regarding... >Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:55:43 -0400 >From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk> >Subject: Re: Rendlesham Neil asked: >I have a portion of the US show "Unexplained Mysteries" transmitted >here on SKY TV back in 1993/94... Does anyone over there know when >this show was made and if the interviews were done at the time of the >production, or earlier??. Neil, I understand the program was originally broadcast by NBC on 18 September, 1991, as the season premiere for "Unsolved Mysteries". The interviews were apparently for that production (John Burroughs didn't come forward as a witness until 1989) and the FX was the work of Industrial Light and Magic. James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Financing For Hearings In Congress,(idea) From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 17:22:18 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 02:49:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Financing For Hearings In Congress,(idea) >Subj: UFO UpDate: Re: Financing For Hearings In >Congress,(idea) >Date: Sat, May 3, 1997 2:11 PM EDT >From: updates@globalserve.net >To: updates@globalserve.net >Your letter, as you so glibly put it, is _not_ "simply >a draft letter to a list"! Your headers show you posted >to at least two other lists. Of the three, two, that I >know of, are archived on a publicly accessed web-site. >There are probably many thousands of people reading your >'drafts'. Citing "time" really does not make it. What's >wrong with composing your posts in a program that _does_ >spell check and then copying and pasting 'em into your >AOL software? Errol: Sorry about steping on your toes. It was not my intention to depreciate list serves. I realy do appreciate what you are doing with UFO updates. Yes I do need to figure out how to write this stuff on my word processing program. Just so much to do. I can see that these moderated list serves can do a great service by providing a public forum to air concerns and pass on information. Many of the UFO leadership are much more expressive and available than most in the UFO community realize. I am doing my best to bring them out of the woodwork kicking and screaming if necessary. We all need to have our views and opinions put up to public scrunity. That even if things get a little hot at times. Thanks again for making this list available. The best, Ed Komarek (ORTK)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 UFOs Photographed in Hardin County, Ohio From: Patricia Mason <pmason@ee.net> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 15:47:53 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 02:35:09 -0400 Subject: UFOs Photographed in Hardin County, Ohio Hello all, I just added photos of UFOs taken in Ohio by Steve Neeley <stneeley@mail.bright.net> of Hardin County Skywatch. You can view them at UNUSUAL RESEARCH: http://users1.ee.net/pmason/hardin_photos.html Best wishes, Pat Mason ********************************************** ********************************************** * UNUSUAL RESEARCH * * * * http://users1.ee.net/pmason/index.html * ********************************************** **********************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 {73} part 2 - United Kingdom UFO Network From: United Kingdom UFO Network <ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:39:43 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 01:56:31 -0400 Subject: {73} part 2 - United Kingdom UFO Network ______ _______ ____ ------ / / // ____// |---------------------------------------------- U K / / // ___/ / / ' 2nd May, 1997 / / // / / / / N E T W O R K part 2 - Issue 73 --- (_____//__/ -- (_____/------------------------------------------------ This issue comes in 2 parts. If any part is missing please mail: ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk giving the issue number. The issue will be reposted to you. Please put the details as below in the subject section e.g. Repost {73} [W 2]****** Source: BBC Ceefax Date: Thursday 27th March 1997 New theory rewrites evolution of chimps Chimpanzees once walked on two legs but then returned to living in tree, an Australian scientist has claimed. Simon Easteal says humans and chimps evolved from a common two-legged ancestor between 3.6m and 4m years ago. He told New Scientist magazine: "We didn't come down from the trees - they went up into the trees." The theory suggests humans evolved much later than thought. It rests on a new calculation of the rate of mutation. [W 3]****** From: crow@crowman.demon.co.uk (Raine & Crow) Date: Friday 4th April 1997 Hiya Dave, At last Saturdays meet, [weekly uk.ufo.nw IRC meetting - see foot of e-zine] Chris Rutkowski (rutkows) volunteered to give the channel a talk about UFO cults, Heaven's Gate in particular, as you know the mass suicides from that cult were all the news last week. He typed up and sent us a copy of his notes from a talk he gave some twenty years ago, when even then Heaven's Gate was an active cult. His chat was pretty interesting as he knew quite a lot of details about that and several other cults. He suggested to us that maybe you could put it into the ezine, so we have attached it. Our thanks to Canadian astronomer and veteran ufologist Chris Rutkowski for permission to print this report. Chris can be reached by email at rutkows@cc.umanitoba.ca >From Heaven Above: Saved by the Aliens by Chris Rutkowski Of the many different cores around which a cult can form, possibly the most curious is the phenomenon of UFOs. Fanatical UFO belief is basically an anti-science movement. It rejects the scientific evaluation and rational explanation for UFOs in favor of a more mystical and religious view. It becomes cult-like when adherents become closed to any interpretation of UFOs as conventional phenomena. Further, fanatical UFO believers often alienate themselves from other UFO buffs, who are interested in a search for "the truth" but do not "know" the truth as fanatical followers claim. There are two basic forms of such fanatical groups: 1) spiritual/religious UFO cults; and 2) obsessive UFO belief cults. The spiritual UFO cults embrace omnipotent beings known often as the "Space Brothers," closely akin to deities. They are always much more advanced that humans, and their levels of advancement are such that they almost always have apparently magical or mystical powers, often including ESP and other psychic abilities. In some cases, they are also more "spiritually-attuned" than us. They are extraterrestrial in the same sense that God is "not of this world," and come from distant planets. Each sub-cult names a different planet of origin for their alien brothers and sisters, including Clarion, Korendar and Zanthar. In UFO cult mythology, for example, Clarion is said to exist "on the other side of the Sun." Some groups select planets within our Solar system as their aliens' homes, including Mars, Jupiter, Saturn and Venus, although some have located their aliens on or inside the Earth. The belief-based cults usually have no spiritual relationship with the Space Brothers, but simply believe that extraterrestrials are visiting Earth. They reject scientists' explanations of UFOs, and often insist that there is some sort of grand cover-up of the knowledge that aliens are among us. One of the early, well-known spiritual UFO cults was the Aetherius Society, founded in Britain by George King in March 1954. One day, King said that he heard a voice from heaven, telling him: "Prepare yourself; you are to become the voice of Interplanetary Parliament." Eight days later, King said a man in white robes walked through a door into his room and delivered the aliens' message that mankind is spiritually unwell. King was advised he was to become the terrestrial representative of the Interplanetary Parliament, which meets regularly on Saturn. He was told to prepare himself for his important duties by practising yoga and leading a healthier lifestyle. A few months later, King was contacted again, this time by the aliens' leader, Master Aetherius. Aetherius was from Venus, where an advanced civilization rules the Solar system. King's body was taken over and controlled by Aetherius, who began proselytizing as he was the "primary terrestrial channel." His mission was, simply, to "alert the world." King attracted a considerable number of followers. His meetings usually took the form of a public channelling display. King went into a trance and began speaking as a "lesser agent," telling of upcoming natural disasters as well as happier occasions such as sightings and landings of flying saucers. Then, Aetherius himself would get channelled, and inform the gathered crowd about esoteric teachings, describing "cosmic energies" and the need for more "positive ions" in the world. Occasionally, another entity would get channelled, including such individuals as Jesus Christ. Jesus explained that He had been born on Venus and had come to Earth in a flying saucer which was disguised as the Star of Bethlehem. Jesus is now on Mars, where He continues His teachings. Channelled, Jesus recited from the New Testament and led the group in prayer. King commended that his followers needed to "charge" mountains in order to prevent cataclysms. He would often lead groups into various mountainous regions where they would pray in circles, thus charging "energy batteries" which could be used by the aliens to prevent disasters. Another UFO cult leader was George Adamski. His mission on Earth began on November 20th, 1952, at 12:30 p.m., near the town of Parker in the California desert, when he and some friends saw a UFO apparently land nearby. He instructed his friends to remain with their car while he went to investigate. Adamski said that he came face to face with a space being who had human features and long, light-colored, shoulder-length hair. (Later, such aliens were called blondes.') Communicating in sign language, Adamski learned that the visitor was from Venus. Later, he was told that the Space Brothers were very displeased with human behavior and had enlisted Adamski to carry their message of peace and goodwill to all mankind. Adamski published three books describing his encounters with the aliens and their messages. They each were financial successes, allowing him to travel widely and attract a huge following. He referred to himself as Professor George Adamski,' and claimed that he lived and worked at Mount Palomar Observatory. In reality, he ran a small cafeteria halfway up the mountain road leading to the astronomical institution. He did have a small portable telescope, through which he took several photographs of aliens and their spaceships hovering nearby, all of which were out of focus or of dubious heritage. One widely-published photograph, showing a closeup of a flying saucer with portholes and ball-like objects underneath, has been dismissed by skeptics as the top part of a vacuum clear, a bottle washer or a chicken brooder. Adamski's followers formed groups in many cities around the world, including Canada. Adamski died in 1965, but his groups continued meeting as recently as the late 1970s. George Van Tassel founded the "College of Universal Wisdom" in 1953. Van Tassel is best known as the organizer of the Giant Rock Flying Saucer Convention, which was held annually for nearly two decades on a desert airfield near Giant Rock, California. The night of August 24, 1953, Van Tassel was sleeping with his wife and was woke up at about 2:00 a.m. to find a man standing at the foot of his bed. The human-appearing entity said that his name was "Sol-ganda" and insisted that Van Tassel come with him aboard his spaceship. Van Tassel noted that his wife was in a deep sleep which Sol-ganda said was because of a "spell." Outside, Van Tassel saw a bell-shaped craft that was powered by an "antigravity beam." Van Tassel didn't receive any direct message from his alien contact, but simply was shown things which he interpreted as directions and information to pass on to others. For example, during one of his later contacts, he was visually shown the true history" of the human race, as observed by aliens. Typically, Van Tassel would go into a trance at a meeting and channel information from Sol-ganda or other aliens. Van Tassel was often attacked by skeptics, and one of the most memorable incidents was the action of a lawyer who set out to show that Van Tassel's stories were hoaxes. He sent Van Tassel faked UFO photos, which Van Tassel quickly adopted as true and proof of his own experiences. However, when both the lawyer and Van Tassel appeared together on a popular UFO-related radio talk show, the lawyer revealed the photos as his fakes. Despite such damaging evidence, Van Tassel remained popular and his Giant Rock convention attracted many thousands of devotees and contactees annually. Near the convention site, he built the Integratron, a wooden dome-shaped temple, from plans he said were supplied by the Space Brothers and similar to Solomon's Temple from the Old Testament. The Integratron was designed for rejuvenation' of the human body, through omni-beams' directed from above. In September of 1944, Amazing Stories magazine editor Ray Palmer received a letter from Richard Shaver. Shaver detailed how he had learned of an "ancient alphabet" from a lost race that had once thrived on Earth and had battled evil aliens. Palmer had his reservations, but he published the letter and was surprised to receive hundreds of requests for more information. Shaver replied with a long story titled: "A Warning to Future Man," which Palmer edited and rewrote as "I Remember Lemuria." It was published in March, 1945. The piece received an unprecedented response from the magazine's readership. More than 50,000 letters flowed in from people who praised the work but also added their own personal experiences which supported the story. Basically, Shaver's story relied on "racial memories" about a race of subhuman creatures called deros (detrimental robots) living in underground cities with the Earth. The deros had once been slaves of an advanced civilization which had once existed on Lemuria, but had perished during the cataclysm that destroyed Atlantis. Deros had control of the Lemurians highly-advanced technology, including mind-rays which they directed at humans on the surface of the Earth, causing mental, emotional and physical problems. Other devices caused earthquakes, volcanoes and droughts. Their sole pastime was to annoy and persecute the human race. Occasionally, they would kidnap humans and torture them, sometimes returning them to the surface, but most often hiding them forever, such as the case of Jimmy Hoffa and Judge Crater. Ray Palmer continued to publish the Shaver stories as fact, which eventually led to his firing from Amazing Stories, but he then began his own science fiction pulp magazine, called first Other Worlds, then Flying Saucers from Other Worlds and then finally Flying Saucers. The stories continued being published until the 1970s. MARK-AGE is a quasi-religious group that still exists today. Its basic set of beliefs is that mankind was once part of an interplanetary spiritual communications system, but has turned away from spiritual matters. Because of this, the Hierarchical Board of the Solar System "drew the veil" over our consciousness. However, some of the aliens, being benevolent, are trying to increase our spiritual consciousness, using mental communications with certain members of our society, projecting their own bodies or actually making themselves seen in their flying saucers. Mark is the chief contact for Earth, and has been assigned to make mankind "space-conscious" and ready to meet other life forms. Mark-Age devotees believe that God is helping the United States space program because it was defined as "one nation under God." The Soviet Union was not given such help because it was in their opinion atheistic. A similar group is the Universal Link, which is concerned that our spiritual understanding is not at the same level as our technology. They view our society as plagued by injustice and strife. They also hold that the Chinese are "breaking the power balance of the world" and may lead us into atomic war. Flying saucers are the "links" in the aliens' operation to Earth which is designed to create a paradigm shift towards more spiritual matters. The Universal Link is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ to Earth, Jesus being an alien whose real name is Orthon. According to the Raelians, aliens are really the "Elohim" referred to in some biblical teachings, meaning literally, "those from the sky." They created humans in a laboratory on their own planet and put us on Earth. We accidentally gained intelligence through interbreeding, and became self-conscious. The aliens left us to our own affairs, but they occasionally send messengers to check on us, such as Jesus, Mohammed and Budda. The latest alien messenger is Rael, born as Claude Vorhilon, who has been to their home planet and met all the other messengers there. Raelians believe that all of the miracles and visitations recorded in the Bible were performed or caused by aliens and their UFOs. They have about 10,000 members worldwide, based in France but with satellite groups in other countries including the USA and Canada. Robert Barry founded the 20th Century UFO Bureau in the late 1960s. He stressed that the public had been lied by the government about the existence of UFOs and aliens on Earth. Basically, an anti-coverup group, Barry also taught that UFOs were spaceships piloted by angels, although a few are driven by Satan and his forces. The angel-piloted UFOs assist the Israelis in their battles in the Holy Land. In the 1970s, Barry held public meetings in a number of cities and towns, promoting himself in "bible belt areas such as Steinbach, Manitoba and in Pennsylvania. Vonnetta Chouinard was born in 1935 in Oxford, Nova Scotia. When she came out of her mother's womb, she had a caul on her face, considered a lucky or fortunate omen. She claimed that at age 7, she died from pneumonia, but "rose again on the third day" after sulfa drugs were administered to her. At age 10, she walked into another dimension and began having visions. In 1968, space creatures took her in their craft to other planets, and even inside the Earth. While on board during one of her journeys, they used an x-ray device to look inside her body. They found several tumors in her body and they operated on her with such advanced surgical techniques that they left no scars. Vonnetta says she was chosen by beings from the fourth dimension to carry their message of peace and sanity to the world. She was directed to help convince mankind to stop pollution, cease atomic testing and repent to God. She was interested in educating children in the aliens' message through UFO comic books and TV shows. In 1975, a "scout craft" burned a cross into a field in Nova Scotia. No snow stayed on the cross, which remained warn to the touch all winter. In spring, no grass grew. A spring nearby turned reddish, then cleared, but Vonnetta began holding religious ceremonies at the site. She claimed that people could be healed by water from the spring, and her "services" were attended by many devotees who were healed of ailments such as arthritis, lameness and blindness. However, some local residents who were skeptical of the activities attempted to put an end to them by hiring a bulldozer to plow the cross over. Vonnetta and her group made a public demonstration of solidarity by laying in front of the bulldozer and stopping the plan. But, as Vonnetta noted, the bodies of those who wanted to plow over the cross were found soon after at the bottom of a lake, with many bones broken. She said that this showed how bad things would happen to those who got in the way of the plans of Space Brothers. Vonnetta said she could sense "vibrations" emanating from the UFOs flying overhead, and also from radiation left behind after they took off from their landing sites. The Society of Unarius was directed by Ruth Norman (Archangel Uriel) for several decades until her death in the 1990s. The group owns dozens of acres on California where each year they await the mass landings of spaceships which will save selected spiritually-attuned individuals. They believe that Earth needs to become the 33rd member planet of the Interplanetary Confederation. Jesus, Mohammed and Einstein were channelled by Norman, giving further teachings to the Society's followers. The Society holds parades and meetings for which members dress up in costumes representative of other planets in the Confederation. Finally, the Kosmon Church believes that Zoroaster (Zarathrustra) was the first Great Teacher; he was an emissary of KOSMON, a spiritual entity/life force. They hold that mankind is unaware of anything off its ethereal plane, and are ignorant of the danger from lower, evil planes which are pressing on Earth, disturbing humanity. The Kosmon Church is warning us that the Ethereans are coming, Discussion We can see recurring themes present in most of these groups: 1) Mankind's spiritual awareness is missing or weak. 2) Space Brothers are trying to coax us back onto the path of spiritual understanding. 3) There will be a Second Coming. 4) Salvation is possible. It appears that, for the most part, UFO religious cults and groups are all concerned with the welfare of the human race. They are trying to spread the teachings of their "masters" in hope that mankind will be saved from itself. Therefore, they are basically "normal" religious groups which simply replace God with a physical being from another planet. They reject science's dismissal of UFO reports, and in doing so, adopt an anti-science attitude that is impressed on their followers. (However, the Heavens Gate cult used technology itself to spread and interpret spiritual and mystical teachings, an interesting combination of beliefs.) The groups usually receive instructions directly from their masters,' usually through channelled missives. Unfortunately, this sometimes led to many "unauthorized" readings and messages by individual members, since there was no control over the depth to which members could become immersed in the particular group's ideology. This sometimes led to their own contacts with the alien masters, distorting the original teachings. Since individual members could themselves become "in tune" with the aliens, they could obtain their own ego-enhancing, spiritual high.' But as we have seen from the Heavens Gate incident, there are personal dangers from becoming too involved in one's faith. In 1982, two people waited in their car for more than a month in North Dakota. They spent the entire time in their car, waiting for a spaceship to arrive. They were drawn by a "higher power" as they sat in below-freezing temperatures, snowbound in their vehicle. Eventually one of them died of a combination of hypothermia, dehydration and starvation, which spurred the other to seek help. (Source: Winnipeg Free Press, November 19, 1982) Some UFO-based religious groups' concepts probably reflect anxieties about our present society and more specifically, the possibility of nuclear war or the general angst felt by those oppressed or otherwise "left out." Other themes are the role of religion in a technological society, the need for peaceful international relations and the possibility of extraterrestrial visitation. According to most groups, the Space Brothers come from planets free from war, poverty and need. They also have achieved immortality through an emphasis on spiritual matters. In short, they exist in a idyllic paradises much removed from terrestrial problems. The Space Brothers also have come to Earth to stop arms proliferation and to prevent further war. Many early UFO religious cults were anticommunist but were paradoxically socialist in their structure. This was ironic, because both the FBI and CIA monitored the groups because they were deemed "dangerous." often infiltrating the groups in order to keep watch on them. Cult members' fear of death is lessened or eliminated by the belief that the aliens will prolong their lives or reincarnate them on another planet. The groups often made Jesus a spaceman, but still defined him as a true messenger who died trying to teach us truth and love. Since Earth was not "ready" yet, the groups had to have human leaders to act as go-betweens. All groups shared their mission to educate mankind in order to save us from destruction. Hence, they sought public exposure in order to transmit their leaders' messages. Furthermore, it should be noted that UFO cults almost always promulgated a "Christian" philosophy of love, peace and reconciliation. Most taught that we should be kind to one another, respecting all life and caring for the Earth. Many had strong environmental convictions. Bo and Peep (or Te and Do) first formed the Christian Arts Centre in Houston in 1972, to promote religious artistic activities. Only three years later, the families of 20 people were panicked when they received postcards from their children informing them that they were "leaving this Earth" and would not see them anymore. Police investigation uncovered the cult commune in Oregon. It was learned that at that time, dozens of people had left their jobs, families and even their children to follow "The Two." That was in 1975. In 1997, we learned that the cult was still operating, with tragic consequences. Their message was the same, and people still were being recruited into its membership. We know that in 1997, 39 people died. In 1975, dozens of people joined the cult, and many were never heard from again. [W 4]****** uk.ufo.nw Dave says: Rob Jansen is a Brit having lived in Canada for the past 30 years or so. His folks still live here in the UK in Ipswich. Rob first contacted me via e-mail in early 1996 and during that year on a visit to the UK with his lovely wife Debbie (a Nurse) to see his parents they spent a day with me and my family here in Birmingham. I have to say what a very pleasant and nice couple. Rob is a fun loving, hard working chap. We have become firm pen friends and write regularly. I was honoured that Rob entrusted me with his story and thank him for allowing me to print it here. A personal story ---------------- From: Rob Jansen (Canada) Chapter One: The Sighting. 10th September 1970 My cousin and I had gone out to a relation's house in Sooke B.C. arriving at approx 6 p.m. we found that the house was locked so we hung around for a while then went into the village returning at 7.30 p.m. We hung around again for about an hour. My cousin decided to climb into a bedroom through one of the windows to get his belongings. While he was attempting to do this I was sitting on the hood of my 1970 Chevrolet Corvair when I heard him yell. I ran round the house to see him and he was pointing up to the sky. I followed his gaze to see a round object silently gliding across the sky. From where we stood it seemed about 150 to 200 feet across and about 800 to 1500 feet up in the air. We estimated its direction and since it was not going fast we decided to follow it. We chased it up into the hills taking the logging road south of the river. We changed from the south side of the river to the north side and followed it for about 30 minutes. We were travelling at roughly 70 mph and about 1/4 of a mile behind it. We watched it get lower and lower until it disappeared below the tree line. We drove for about another mile when I suddenly put the brakes on. My cousin asked why I had stopped and I answered "It's landed." We of course were not sure but I felt it and no persuading on his part would make me drive further on. We stayed there about 15 minutes before heading back to town. We were about half way when we ran into the local county Mounties who would not let us proceed until we had answered all there questions. They wanted to know where we had been and who we had met. However a couple of weeks later I was on my way over the Malahat at day break when myself and a trucker were buzzed by an unknown Aircraft that had something like landing lights on it. We were both forced off the road. Thankfully there was no damage done to either vehicle. Chapter Two: September 1972 My Boss Dan and I had been hunting up at the Copper Canyon area near Naniamo B.C. We had finished hunting having seen nothing but doe's around and were heading home. We were driving round the edge of the canyon slowly as it was getting misty and dark. We spotted a large buck on the road and we stopped. We both took careful aim at the deer when we were struck by a blinding white light. We immediately thought it was a ranger helicopter so we relaxed because we weren't sure whether or not to shoot. The deer disappeared. After we could see again we left. At a further point along the road Dan got out to open the gate and was approached by a short man in a lumberjacks shirt, jeans and vest. They talked for a few minutes then he approached the car and spoke to me. He asked if I had the same interests in 'extraterrestrial phenomena'. I answered yes and he suggested that I meet him later that week and discuss them. I agreed and he gave me his address. I went to the address he gave me but not on the day he said. Actually it was a few days later. The address was phoney. There was nothing there but fields and tree's and more fields. It has often bothered me what would have happened if I had met him. It was just after this I moved out of the area to Penticton B.C. Nothing happened for a year then one morning I was on my way to Kelowna. Just out of Summerland where the road is high enough that you can see the lake I spotted a 'V' shaped wave on the lake travelling at a fair speed. However there was no object on the water. I could see nothing that would make such a wake and could see no object in the water. I watched it until it was obscured from view. If it was Ogopogo he can travel at great speed. I personally think it was something else. Something that was faster than even an underwater craft of anything we know. And I definitely don't think that they had atomic submarines in those days or in that area. Chapter Three: Alberta 1977 Working at Lethbridge was fun but living at Turin was a long way to travel. One night I was on my way home to Turin along the gravel road which was quicker than the regular road. It was about 12.30 a.m. and pitch black. All of a sudden the truck stopped. This was just one of the many things that happened in Alberta. I was there during the time of the cattle mutilations I saw them up close and I can honestly say that no predator, doctor, vet or anyone can do these operations and leave no tell tale evidence. I have seen cows with the brain removed and the reproductive organs removed but no signs of a struggle. No blood even in heavy snow. This happened twice early in the morning and the animals were checked alive and well late the previous night. Despite the allegations that they were the work of cultists you could never convince me of this. I believe it was the work of some things or persons out of this world. Late in 1979 the truck incident was repeated with almost the same amount of time being missed. The year earlier I had a couple of dreams. One told me how UFOs fly and the other about their weaponry. A friend who works for a top university science laboratory checked out the details and they work all too well! That is why I wont tell anymore about it. It is a frightening thing to know that the knowledge you have in your mind could quite possibly change the world. It would make an excellent hunting weapon but until I know how to control the power that can't be tampered with............. We all know how easy weapons can be altered and used and until I can beyond any doubt know that they can not be used against people I'd rather die with the knowledge. uk.ufo.nw Dave says: I have mailed Rob on occasions and asked him to elaborate on things he has said in his text. He always tells me that now is not the time but perhaps at some stage we can talk about it. Rob has asked me to say that if anyone wishes to mail him they can do so at the following e-mail address: jansen@max-net.com [W 5]****** Source: Today@NASA Date: 6th March 1997 Yes, it's true. We got hacked. We're back. At noon EST on March 5, hackers got into the server that houses the main NASA Web page, www.nasa.gov, and replaced it with a page of their own design. The replacement page, which was available for about 30 minutes, contained a diatribe against commercialization of the Internet and protested the criminal prosecution of two hackers. After system administrators assessed the damage (none beyond the affected page) and did some other work to prevent a recurrence, the server was back online at 9:30 a.m. March 6. Apologies to those who were unable to access desired pages. [W 6]****** From: Calb1701@aol.com Source: The Sunday Times newspaper Date: 27th April 1997 UFO group wants Congress to examine 'proof' of aliens An American UFO research group says it will go public with its evidence of aliens if a congressional hearing is not held into the existence of extraterretrial spacecraft, writes Sean Hargrave. The Centre for Study of Extra Terrsrtial Intelligence (CSETI) claims to have 50 witnesses of UFOs, who have, or have had, high-level security clearance positions in America's armed forces, intelligence services and military contractors. The Hearing would be needed becouse it would protect witnessed who would be breaking national security oaths if they gave evidence elswhere. Also a congressional hearing could subpoena additional witnesses who could be imprisoned if they lied under oath. Steven Greer, a casualtiy doctor who is the leader of CSETI, arranged a briefing this month at which he claimed representatives from 30 congressmen's offices were present, including several congressmen. Greer says 11 people told the briefing of their encounters with UFOs. He hopes that those who attened will take CSETI's claims more seriously and back his call for a full hearing. "We're not asking anybody suddenly to believe in UFOs, because nine out of every 10 times, what you hear is absolute rubbish," says Greer. "We just want them to see there is sufficient evidence to warrant a hearing where we can present our case. That is all we are asking. We hoope at least one of them is brave enough to back us." Greer claims to have photographic, video and documentary evidence that shows the military has tracked and even recovered UFO craft, as well as their occupants. Greer's campaign has the backing of Edgar Mitchell, a former astronaut who in 1971 became the sixth man to walk on the moon. "The body of evidence is just so overwhelming," says Mitchell. "The real thing here is that the witnesses are not just everyday people who have seen a UFO. These people have had top-security clearance within the military and their contractors. They deserve to be able to tell Congress what they know so we can begin to get to the bottom of this thing." Greer claims that among his witnesses is a man who held a senior position in the intelligencce unit at the MacGuire airforce base in 1978 when an alien that had left his craft was allegedly shot dead and taken to a top-secret corner of Wright Patterson air base. There is also a high-ranking officer who was part of a team that tracked a massive craft, which, he claims, was capable of travelling the length of the American coast in a single sweep of radar. He also claims to have material samples that levitate when placed in an electric field and which a goverment expert has certified as not being of earth origin. Greer is not willing to reveal the identity of any of his witnesses. He says this is to protect those who, if approached, would be forced to break their national-security oaths. If a congressional hearing is not forthcoming within the next few months, though, he claims that some of his witnesses are still willing to come forward to tell of their experiences. Greer says his approach has been to gather a group of witnesses relating to several events rather than concentrate on a single sighting. This he believes will confront a hearing with a mass of evidence at the same time as allowing witnwsses to come forward as a single group. Despite Greer claiming those present at his briefing were "shocked" by the evidence that was presented, no congressman has yet backed his appeal for a full hearing. [W 7]****** Source: John Carpenter New Videos Hello, UFO fans! This is UFO Abductions researcher John Carpenter writing to you. I wanted to let you know about two NEW RELEASES from the video production team at Carpenter Research. These two new research videos are just jam-packed with great information on UFO abductions --- both from the U.S.A. and Australia (a FIRST !!).... NEW VIDEO RELEASE !!!!!!!! MULTIPLE PARTICIPANT ABDUCTIONS" by John S. Carpenter, MSW, LCSW Multiple participant abductions are accounts of alleged UFO encounters in which two or more persons share the recall of being taken aboard an unusual craft at the same time and experiencing strange beings not of this world. Initially, these witnesses share little more than an odd period of unexplained amnesia or "missing time." Separated for investigative interviews and independent hypnosis sessions, these participants are able to remember -- much to their surprise -- specific details of a shared UFO abduction scenario. They can describe the same odd beings, unique symbols, barren rooms, confusing exams, specific procedures, and extraordinary behaviors which often defy conventional physics. Experience for yourself this important area of abduction research as you meet the participants, view drawings, paintings, and photographs from their experiences, and hear the professional analysis by psychiatric therapist John Carpenter. 115 minutes - $29.95 NEW VIDEO RELEASE !!!!! "ENCOUNTERS IN AUSTRALIA" by John S. Carpenter, MSW, LCSW The "Land Down Under" has not been excluded from the extraordinary mystery of UFO encounters. Despite the remote location of this island continent in the South Pacific Ocean, documented cases of skinny little gray beings with big black eyes, reptilian creatures, hybrid humanoids, and even praying mantis types all appear in the collected data. Experience the words and emotions of each witness as these encounters are revealed. Meet researchers Glennys Mackay and Keith Basterfield as they share their recent cases. Housewife Kelly Cahill suddenly found herself part of a shared abduction encounter with other people she had never met before --- but who now independently correlate and confirm her account. Therapist Elizabeth Robinson had been trying to dismiss her experiences until her own daughter and mother also reported similar encounters. And MUCH MUCH more !!! John Carpenter narrates --- blending these interviews with charming views of the scenery and wildlife of Australia. 116 minutes - $29.95 Please ADD $3.00 for postage and shipping of orders (totals = $32.95) and send check or money orders to: Carpenter Research 4033 South Belvedere Ct. Springfield, MO. 65807 U.S.A. PREVIOUS RELEASES FROM CARPENTER RESEARCH: "The Face in the Window" 80 minutes $29.95 Was an alien face floating into the view of a rural farmhouse window in 1992 actually the first genuine video image of an extraterrestrial captured on film? Explore with John Carpenter the fascinating in-depth analysis of this case. Includes multiple replays (slow-motion, stop-action, enlargements) of image. "Aliens Captured in Brazil?" 113 minutes $29.95 Join in the front-line investigation as Carpenter, Stanton Friedman, and Graham Birdsall interview Vitorio Pacaccini, one of the two top investigators for the unusual crash of a UFO near Varginha, Brazil in January, 1996. Over forty first- hand witnesses (including medical, military, and civilian) described strange beings walking through their city and captured by officials. Carpenter summarizes the various encounters with drawings from the investigators and witnesses. Then, A.J. Gevaerd adds some important additional comments. "Professional Workshop for Researchers and Hypnotherapists" 120 min. $29.95 John Carpenter shares a wealth of interesting and helpful information on the field of UFO Abduction research, outlining symptoms, case material, support strategies, hypnotic and investigative procedures, special considerations, etc. This is a rare and valuable outpouring of useful information on Abductions!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- UNITED KINGDOM UFO NETWORK Please forward all reports to: ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk Visit us on the World Wide Web at http://www.holodeck.demon.co.uk/ For information on receiving back issues and other files send mail with REQUEST INFO in the subject area to: ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk Meet us on the IRC (internet relay chat). Regular meetings held every Saturday night at 11pm (2300hrs) UK time. Connect to irc.mirage.co.uk and join us on channel #UFO Joining the IRC meetings is now even easier! 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Kal Korff to DRudiak From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 18:26:56 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 02:58:41 -0400 Subject: Kal Korff to DRudiak >From: DRudiak@aol.com >Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:48:02 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Korff's New Book on Roswell Dear Mr. Rudiak, Just a short response for now, as I am VERY BUSY at the moment - Will respond more in depth later as time permits: 1) Since you have NOT READ MY NEW ROSWELL BOOK YET, you are in NO POSITION to COMMENT ON ITS CONTENTS!! 2) I DID NOT say any such thing on MSNBC about "aluminized mylar." Those words are YOURS, NOT MINE! If you're going to criticize me, and quote my words in doing so, then at least get them right! Here's what you claim I said: <Snip> >I have not read Korff's book yet, but I know of at least one <other serious >error in it from comments about it on the <MSNBC Web page. Korff alleged the >mysterious "memory foil" <was nothing but aluminized mylar used on the Mogul >balloon <radar reflectors. This is nothing but a stale debunker urban <myth >of unknown origin. The Mogul documents published by <the Air Force plus >newspaper accounts of the day clearly <indicate that the radar reflectors >were constructed of plain <ordinary aluminum foil. As I've stated, I never, to the best of my knowledge, used the words "aluminized mylar."! Is there even any such thing?? So once again, if your going to criticze me for something I've said, then please make sure that I really did say this!! I CHALLENGE you to find any posting or direct quote from me (ever anywhere,) where I used the words "aluminized mylar."!! You are also WRONG about the composition of the Mogul-related radar reflectors. As you know, aluminum foil is coprised of aluminum and has NO BACKING. Mogul radar reflectors, however, had a paper-like backing adhered to it, a characteristic TESTIFIED TO BY SEVERAL ROSWELL WITNESSES! THIS IS A FACT YOU CONVENIENTLY IGNORE!! 3) You are also VERY WRONG ABOUT MARCEL'S RECORDS. How do you EXPLAIN THE FACT THAT MARCEL LIED ABOUT BEING A PILOT AND THAT HE HAD A DEGREE IN PHYSICS FROM LOUISIANA STATE UNIVERSITY, WHEN THE TRUTH IS HE DID NOT! ALSO, IF MARCEL WAS SO "RELIABLE" THEN WHY DID HE LIE (BLATANTLY) ABOUT HAVING SHOT DOWN 5 ENEMY AIRCRAFT AND BEING AWARDED FIVE AIR MEDALS WHEN HE CERTAINLY WASN'T?? HE ALSO LIED ABOUT ENTERING THE ARMY as an aide to general Hap Arnold! How do you explain this? There are other lies that Marcel made, need I recount the pain of all of them to you? Until you can "innocently" justify Marcel's tall tales, I am afraid that there's not much to discuss here. Finally, it would probably do you better to get my new book first if you wish to attack it. I REFUSE to have a debate with someone who gleans their "facts" from "psychic" means like Hesemann does. I know you are not doing this, literally, but for your own CREDIBILITY'S sake, please READ THE BOOK FIRST before trying to attack it. Otherwise, how is anyone going to ever take you seriously? I would welcome your feedback, but only AFTER you've read the book, otherwise, what's the point? I will get back in touch with you in the future with a long list of Roswell issues that if you can refute, then you will have gone (boldly) where no one else has managed to take this investigation before. Should be a challenge for you and any other Roswell supports - the ranks of which seem to be thinning on a daily basis. :-) Sincerely, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 BWW Media Alert 970503 From: BufoCalvin@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 10:02:51 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 02:23:53 -0400 Subject: BWW Media Alert 970503 Bufo Calvin, P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com 510-432-8102 (voice, fax, and recorded messages) TAP (The Address Project) NEARU (National Events by Area Registry of the Unexplained) Bufo's WEIRD WORLD (paper and electronic newsletter) ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert for non-commercial purposes) May 3, 1997 Almost got this one out "on time". I am making an effort to recognize when I'm exhausted, though, and that means I'm pulling fewer late-nighters. I'm working on some other things this week as well. I'm going to lecture in a school on UFOs and critical thinking (I like to say, "why you believe what you believe") on Tuesday. Sorry, not open to the public. I've got another big project on which I'm working...I'll probably tell you about it next week. Btw, I think we may have had the first reference to Chupacabras (that's Spanish for "goat-sucker", an organ-sucking ((don't go there!)) monster, first widely reported in Puerto Rico...although humorist Dave Barry says it's Spanish for "attorney"...) in a Hollywood film. I went to see MCHALE'S NAVY. No, I didn't expect it to be good, but I am a Tim Curry fan and like to see him (even though he isn't always good: he wasn't in this). At one point, the gang is in Cuba, and the camera stays for a very long time on one of those poles with wooden signs with place names painted on them, like they used in MASH. One of the names was Chupa Cabras. I assume it stayed there to give people time to laugh: nobody did. On to the listings! Whoops! Out of time for now. I may supplement this later. Wanted to get this out to include EDGE OF REALITY in time for tonight's show... FICTIONAL NOTES: This is where I briefly cover items which are fictional but which I feel are worth mentioning, either because of the impact they have had on the field or vice versa. I don't list weekly shows, just special items. If you want info on the weekly fictional shows, see Rebecca Keith�s excellent CNI NEWS MEDIA WATCH at http://www.cninews.com. The most-hyped one this week is ROBIN COOK'S INVASION, which has the first ep Sunday at 9:00 PM on NBC and concludes Monday at 9:00 PM. The Disney Channel has CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND on Saturday at 11:20 PM...director Steven Spielberg will be interviewed on NBC's THE TODAY SHOW on Tuesday at 7:00 AM. HBO has THE CONEHEADS at 3:30 on Sunday and 6:30 PM on Wednesday. On PBS on Monday at 5:00 PM, the kids' series ARTHUR has a mock alien invasion: really fits that PBS image, hm? THE MOVIE CHANNEL has MAGIC IN THE WATER, the Mark Harmon lake monster movie, at 7:15 PM on Tuesday. Another fictional monster movie, and another Spielberg bit, is HARRY AND THE HENDERSONS, about a bigfoot: runs on STARZ at 4:00 AM on Wednesday (repeated that night at 6:00 PM). CINEMAX has a movie that features interdimensional aliens, and an amazing alleged cover-up, with BUCKAROO BANZAI at 5:15 PM on Wednesday (this movie and book, which features a pseudo-zen philosophy, popularized the phrase, "No matter where you go, there you are.") HBO has THE ARRIVAL at 1:00 PM and 11:15 PM Thursday. CONFERENCES, LECTURES, ETC. The GREAT MID ATLANTIC 50th ANNIVERSARY UFO SYMPOSIUM: Bethesda Ramada Inn; Saturday, May 3, 9 AM start; Investigator's workshop, Stan Friedman, Linda Howe, Bruce Maccabee, others; $35; Call 301-349-2434 for information. MAGAZINES, NEWSLETTERS, ETC. FORTEAN TIMES, FT 98, June 1997. This is certainly the premier British mag on weird stuff. It also has good U.S. distribution, and the monthly issues can often be found in big bookstores. The cover this time is on HAPPY BIRTHDAY UFO. Feature articles include: THE DEVIL WORSHIPPERS (are Satan worshippers really the threat some folks would have you believe?) by Editor Bob Rickard; A STAR IS BORN (Nostradamus rerererereinterpreted by David Drason); SEVEN DAYS THAT SHAPED UFOLOGY, an excerpt from the forthcoming book by Dennis Stacy, who will certainly do a good job with this); HOW TO START YOUR OWN COUNTRY by Andrew Dennis. The regular features include the indispensable STRANGE DAYS, which includes an update on bogus social workers, in addition to all the usual unusual stuff; FORUM pieces include Andy Roberts on Israeli ETs, Loren Coleman on three-toed biped stories; and Rupert Sheldrake on easy-to-do experiments to prove the existence of connectiveness between beings. Reviews include (among others): Schnabel and Morehouse's books on remote viewers (see also Gordon Elliott's syndicated tv show this Thursday); THE DEMON HAUNTED WORLD by Carl Sagan; and Ed Stewart's remarkable works of scholarship, the indices to THE MUFON JOURNAL and FLYING SAUCER REVIEW. See the website at http://www.forteantimes.com. THE SKEPTICAL ENQUIRER, Volume 21, No. 3, May/June, 1997. This skeptical publication put out by THE COMMITTEE FOR THE SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION OF CLAIMS OF THE PARANORMAL (CSICOP) is something I certainly recommend, as I do FORTEAN TIMES. SI is much more advocatory, which makes it easier to draw the lines, sometimes. I certainly don't agree with much of what it says, but there are usually some great articles (I always prefer those which don't attack specific people). It's interesting, though, how this can parallel the "true believer" type mags (I call this one a "true disbeliever"). The solid articles can be really good here, like the one by E.A. Krol on SCIENTIFIC REASONING AND ACHIEVEMENT IN A HIGH SCHOOL ENGLISH COURSE (although it seems to me to miss a major confounder). At the other end, you have things like the letter by Brandon M. Stickney, who is the author of ALL AMERICAN MONSTER: THE UNAUTHROIZED BIOGRAPHY OF TIMOTHY MCVEIGH. He seems to make statements (always a dangerous thing to do :) ) based on the kind of slim anectotal hearsay that probably wouldn't be allowed in court. Here is an example: "McVeigh thinks, or at least did at the time he worked with Lebron, that flying saucers exist and that miniauture submarines are sneaking illegal drugs into the U.S." Actually, this is what Lebron allegedly says McVeigh allegedly said (allegedly, allegedly). While there was an earler statement that "...We can look at a few of McVeigh's beliefs, according the people who have known him..." as to the source of this evidence by Stickney, they still come off (to me) as pronouncements of fact. Anyway, major articles this issue include: IS THE SKY FALLING? (about comets, etc.) by David Morrison; COLLECTIVE DELUSIONS: A SKEPTIC'S GUIDE by Robert Bartholomew; the aforementioned English and advanced reasoning article; and SKEPTICISM AND POLITICS by Barry Fagin. Reviews include HOW THE MOON AFFECTS YOU by Arold L. Lieber, and HOUDINI!!!, THE CAREER OF EHRICH WEISS. Regular features include: NEWS AND COMMENT (which include the TOP TEN PARANORMAL PHENOMENA OF THE DECADE); NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER by Martin Gardner (he has written some very good things, but in this case, he basically provides a summary of Courtney Brown's COSMIC VOYAGE* with a bit of commentary); INVESTIGATIVE FILES by Joe Nickell (nice piece on how to hoax crystal tears); MEDIA WATCH by C. Eugene EMery, Jr.; PSYCHIC VIBRATIONS (farewell to Jean Dixon and some on Robert Bigelow) by Robert Sheaffer; two FORUM PIECES, one on YES , WE HAVE NO HOSANNAS by Robert Estling and THE COURTNEY BROWN AFFAIR AND ACADEMIC FREEDOM by Scott O. Lillenfeld; LETTERS; and a special section of tributes to Carl Sagan. I wish I had written them one, and perhaps I still should. Sagan made science fun, for many people. I often found his thinking flawed on the paranormal, but he had a great impact on American culture and belief-structures, and was an excellent writer. See their website at http://www.csicop.org. ONLINE OMNI MAGAZINE (http://www.omnimag.com) is back to do real time conferences. The regular night for our kind of stuff is Tuesday 7:00 PM to 8:00 PM Pacific. RADIO AND TELEVISION SYNDICATED RADIO: END OF THE LINE seems to be having a lot of interesting guests, but they don't list info for the following week on the website (at http://www.endoftheline.com). However, Michael Lindemann does a UFO report on Wednesdays each week. You can listen to it on your computer, as well as on many radio stations: go to http://www.endoftheline.com SYNDICATED TV: COULD IT BE A MIRACLE? (They have now provided me with program summaries, which I greatly appreciate!) --week of 4/28, Robert Culp hosts an in depth look at several unexplained, miraculous events. Bob Evans and Michele Wolford present these cases: after he wanders away from his home, a five year old boy is looked after by two angels; seconds after a young boy cuts his hand, a ghostly nurse comes to his rescue; a guardian angel saves two young brothers from a would be gang attack; a recently deceased man visits a young girl several times before leaving for the other world; an angel helps a woman remain calm as she administers CPR to her young daughter; two young girls are trapped in a refrigerator when an unknown presence opens the door and frees them. PSI-FACTOR (see http://www.psifactor.com for stations and airdates and other info). This series is supposedly based on real cases. See also FOX for Monday, AFTER BREAKFAST. Btw, they've just announced that Matt Frewer, best known as MAX HEADROOM, will join the cast next year. This is in addition to LAW & ORDER's Michael Moriarty. --week of 4/21 (#119, new episode), SECOND SIGHT (does a transplant also create a psychic link to the donor?); CHOCOLATE SOLDIER (charismatic cult leader...how timely) --week of 4/28 (#120, new episode): THE FIRE WITHIN: ranchers spontaneously combusting; FATE: the vision of death that comes to a teenager Saturday, May 3 RADIO: THE EDGE OF REALITY, 5:00 PM -8:00 PM Pacific. Also available on Satcom C5, Transponder 23, SEDAT Channel 24. The specific spots have to be considered tentative, and the station in your area may run it tape-delayed. 5:00 PM: Budd Hopkins and Linda Cortile focus on the book WITNESSED, which details her alleged abduction from a New York highrise. Erik Beckjord, curator of THE NATIONAL UFO, BIGFOOT, AND LOCH NESS MONSTER MUSEUM in San Francisco, has been saying he'll be on at this time. They may have double-booked, or planned him for a short segment. We'll see....6:00 Open line...remember, you call call in at 1-800-825-5188. 6:30 PM, REALITY SHIFTS, features author P.M.H. Atwater discussing people who "slide" into other realities. 7:00 PM, clairoyant psychiatrist Judith Orloff. 7:30 PM, Penny Kelly discusses her dealing with Elves, who help her get an exceptional crop of grapes at her vineyard, Lily Hill Farm. 2:00 PM, THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: THE JOURNEY BEGINS (the first ep, including Nessie and UFOs) 3:30 PM, THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL, NEXT STEP: includes ghost hunters Sunday, May 4 SYNDICATED RADIO, 7:00 PM, ART BELL'S DREAMLAND: (see http://www.artbell.com for stations and program info) LOCAL TELEVISION, KING COUNTY WASHINGTON, CHANNEL 29, 7:00 PM: JOURNEY: 11:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, SIGHTINGS (5059): THE MAJESTIC 12 DOCUMENTS! (do these papers prove the U.S. has a recovered flying saucer? or are they a hoax?); SAO PAOLO HAUNTING (high-rise in Brazil); VANISHED (psychic looks for missing person); SECRETS OF THE SPHYNX (Edgar Cayce statements); NEW MEXICO CATTLE MUTILATIONS (San Luis Valley) 12:00 PM, THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: CURSES AND OMENS 4:00 PM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, SIGHTINGS (5059): THE MAJESTIC 12 DOCUMENTS! (do these papers prove the U.S. has a recovered flying saucer? or are they a hoax?); SAO PAOLO HAUNTING (high-rise in Brazil); VANISHED (psychic looks for missing person); SECRETS OF THE SPHYNX (Edgar Cayce statements); NEW MEXICO CATTLE MUTILATIONS (San Luis Valley) 11:00 PM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, SIGHTINGS (5059): THE MAJESTIC 12 DOCUMENTS! (do these papers prove the U.S. has a recovered flying saucer? or are they a hoax?); SAO PAOLO HAUNTING (high-rise in Brazil); VANISHED (psychic looks for missing person); SECRETS OF THE SPHYNX (Edgar Cayce statements); NEW MEXICO CATTLE MUTILATIONS (San Luis Valley) Monday, May 5 SYNDICATED TV, MONDAY, STRANGE UNIVERSE: the TV GUIDE summary says, "optimistic prophecies"...their ad says, "...how to survive doomsday..." I never quite put "optimistic" and "doomsday" together before, but I guess I can see it :) (see website at http://www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse for stations and playtimes in your area.) LOCAL TELEVISION, SNOHOMISH COUNTY, WASHINGTON, 3:00 PM: JOURNEY: Brenda Roberts produces. 10:00 AM, FOX (time may vary), AFTER BREAKFAST: Dan Aykroyd, maven of the mysterious, and host of PSI FACTOR, guests. 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC, AND MIRACLES (#29): Tuesday, April 29 SYNDICATED TV, TUESDAY, STRANGE UNIVERSE: the ad asks "who is keeping UFO evidence from you?" and the summary says a "UFO buff in Nevada". My guess on this? They are doing a story on Robert Bigelow. =I'm= not suggesting he's keeping evidence, but that's been a rumor...(see website at http://www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse for stations and playtimes in your 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC AND MIRACLES (#30): Wednesday, May 7 SYNDICATED TV, WEDNESDAY, STRANGE UNIVERSE: the ad asks, "What's up with New Age sex?" (I would assume the same thing that's up with old age sex...), while the summary mentions "acumassage") (see website at http://www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse for stations and playtimes in your area) 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC, AND MIRACLES (#31): 7:00 PM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, SIGHTINGS ( 11:00 PM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, SIGHTINGS ( Thursday, May 8 SYNDICATED TV, THURSDAY, GORDON ELLIOT: "psychic spies" (while this could be several people with recent books, including Courtney Brown, author of COSMIC VOYAGE* and Jim Schnabel, author of REMOTE VIEWERS*, I think the most recent was in Donald Morehouse, author of PSYCHIC WARRIOR* ) Schnabel and Morehouse are reviewed in June's FORTEAN TIMES. SYNDICATED TV, THURSDAY, ROLONDA: people who have had "extraordinary experiences" (that could mean a lot of things, but may be appropriate to this list) SYNDICATED TV, THURSDAY, STRANGE UNIVERSE: sounds like men in black, but don't hold me to it (see website at http://www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse for stations and playtimes in your area) 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MAGIC, MYSTERIES AND MIRACLES (#32): 7:00 PM, A&E, THE UNEXPLAINED: HAUNTINGS 9:00 PM, THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE:MYSTERIES FROM HEAVEN (religious mysteries, like the Shroud of Turin) 11:00 PM, A&E, THE UNEXPLAINED: HAUNTINGS Friday, May 9 LOCAL RADIO, 8:00 PM (Pacific Time) WGBB 1240 AM, New York: THE JOYCE KELLER SHOW: the host is a psychic who helps callers. Phone number is 516-955-1240 SYNDICATED TV, FRIDAY, STRANGE UNIVERSE: John Lennon's murder and possible conspiracies...believe it or not, radio shows often get calls implicating Stephen King in this (see website at http://www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse for stations and playtimes in your area) 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC AND MIRACLES (#33): 8:00 PM, NBC, UNSOLVED MYSTERIES: one segment involves gooey blobs that fell out of the sky...this is more common than you would think. Pre-dates aircraft, too, of course. This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!" ____________________________ *Want books on these topics over the Internet? Go to http://www.strangemag.com OR You can order books by calling 1-800-905-8367 (615-896-1356 outside the USA). PLEASE TELL THEM BUFO SENT YOU. This is not a paid ad, but if you order something and identify me, I get something. Anything I get will go towards my work in this field. STRANGE Magazine is edited by Mark Chorvinsky. Greenleaf is operated by Marc Davenport and Leah Haley. ------------------------------------------------- **OPUS is the Organization for Paranormal Understanding and Support. I am an Executive Boardmember, and Director of the OPUS Educational Institute. OPUS encourages its officers and Network Associates to express their own opinions: however, it is important to note that I do not speak for OPUS in this piece or others presented under my own name. For more information on OPUS, call toll-free 1-888-999-OPUS. __________________________________________________ You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com. You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to Bufo's WEIRD WORLD (which covers theories and happenings) the same way. Also, please let me know if there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, the week before.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Kal Korff APOLOGIZES to UFOlogy! From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 18:15:41 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 02:52:38 -0400 Subject: Kal Korff APOLOGIZES to UFOlogy! Hello everyone: I SINCERELY APOLOGIZE for being so TARDY in posting responses to the various comments (both true and false) that many of you have uploaded to this listservice that either concern me or are directed at me. At present, I am SWAMPED with lots of work, and have well over 100 Emails to respond to. Suffice it to say, this takes time. At the present rate, I should be caught up by the first of the week, and I plan to respond to ALL of these Emails -- especially the ones posted by Michael Hesemann and Mr. Rudiak, which are ridiculously EASY to do!! I will duck no issues. Sorry for being so tardy, but there's only 24 hours in an Earth day and I am working as fast as I can. Finally, for those of you who live in the St. Louis, Missouri, area, I will be on KTRF between 9:30PM - 11:30PM (PST) discussing my new Roswell book and the Meier case, of course. I will also be announcing NEW INITIATIVES to FILE LAWSUITS AGAINST VARIOUS GOVERNMENT AGENCIES to press for the CONTINUED RELEASE OF UFO-RELATED DOCUMENTS!! As I have TOLD MANY OF YOU, I AM NOT A SKEPTIC OR A DEBUNKER (sorry, Michael Hesemann and Rudiak!) , I am just a RESEARCHER who is trying to get to the TRUTH. I look forward to moving forth with these initiatives and seeking EVERYONE'S INPUT SO THAT THE BEST LEGAL CASE CAN BE MADE for doing this. As I have also stated REPEATEDLY, I am after the TRUTH when I study a UFO case, and I do NOT CARE what that "truth" ultimately turns out to be. More on these upcoming initiatives later, as a press release will be forthcoming. Boy, are the next several months going to be very exciting -- and busy! Sincerely yours, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: XianneKei@aol.com [Rebecca] Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 18:52:47 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 03:18:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell This is really interesting! >From: Pamela7@aol.com >Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:32:50 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: NEW ROSWELL BOOK! > I am new to this internet stuff and finally decided to write in to this > service. New to this internet stuff, eh.... You seem to have gotten the hang of pretty quickly though. > I want to make you all aware of a new book out by Kal Korff called "The > Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want You to Know." I was so moved > after reading this book that I feel as if I must share its contents > with everyone. When did you read it? Did you have a review copy or what? It is not available yet in Houston. I have called several bookstores (and visited some in person) and all tell me it can't even be ordered yet because the book is backordered at the warehouse. Which must be good news for you, Kal, er... I mean Pamela. >Frankly, I expected from Korff yet another Roswell book that really did >not answer questions or settle any issues definitively, but this is not >the case. >In fact, after reading now every other book on Roswell ever published, I >nominate Mr. Korff's book by far as "the best," hands down! I'll bet. I am certainly looking forward to reading it! >Korff includes all kinds of new data and evidence that he demonstrates has > been ignored by most UFO researchers. This information even surprised me, >and I have read everything there is about Roswell. Korff also includes some >photos that have never been printed in any of the other Roswell UFO books >that have been commercially available and his expose of the Roswell case >is airtight and thorough. He also proves that there was for sure a >government coverup, and the book has something in it for everyone. OH Goody. I can't wait. >Korff's book is not nearly as long as his previous one on Silly Meier, and >it does not include as many pictures. It only has 24. The photos speak for >themselves, though, especially the alien autopsy stills and the photo of >the cameraman. Super. I can't wait to see those. I'm sure your ... er... I mean Kal's publisher would not be publishing pictures that shouldn't be published. I wouldn't worry about Mr. Santilli too much if I were you. >I suppose that maybe I am going to be criticized for my opinion, but as a >newcomer to this field I am sometimes ashamed to see the exchanges that >take place between the various UFO researchers. I now know why, I think, >that UFOs remain such an engima because its investigators are to busy >sniping at one another. You aren't a newcomer. You are trying to pull our legs ... and not doing a very good job of it. But then again, that's just my opinion. Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: Don Allen <dona@totcon.com> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 19:28:33 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 03:41:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >Date: 02 May 97 12:34:11 EDT >From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Korff's New Book on Roswell >>From: Pamela7@aol.com >>Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:32:50 -0400 (EDT) >>To: Updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: NEW ROSWELL BOOK! <snip> >>Korff's book is not nearly as long as his previous one on Silly Meier, and it >>does not include as many pictures. It only has 24. The photos speak for >>themselves, though, especially the alien autopsy stills and the photo of the >>cameraman. >Korff does not have permission to publish photos from the alien autopsy. If >he has done so, he can expect to hear from Ray Santilli's lawyers. >Bob I find it very curious that Korff blows outta here real quick when the heat starts up and then "Pamela7", who hasn't ever written here before, posts a positively glowing report over a book that Korff has supposedly written...but no one has seemingly heard anything about. Perhaps "Pamela7" can post some details about the book, like who published it, for starters? Korff wouldn't be sending in ringers to hype his book would he? Nahh. :-) I guess we can all go home now, since KKK has "solved" the Roswell mystery. Gee..it wasn't a crashed alien craft...it was just 'Project Mogul'. Thank God, I'm SO relieved to finally know the "truth". How odd, that Korff got Marcel's mil eval record skewed. I wonder, does that speak well of the rest of his so-called UFO investigative abilities? Don
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Kal Korff Gets Call From Autopsy "Cameraman"!! From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 21:02:31 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 04:10:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff Gets Call From Autopsy "Cameraman"!! I know I mentioned in a previous posting that it might be a few more days before I post my numerous responses to the myriad of EMails that I've received, but I thought I would share with all of you real quickly some "exciting" news which just happened. A few minutes ago, I received a telephone call from a person, who was obviously a male, who claims to be the "cameraman" from the alien autopsy film!! Being amused by this, (because I am not convinced such a person indeed exists) I listened very carefully and took copious notes, getting every word (just about) verbatim. I wish I had had a tape recorder hooked up to my phone, but I didn't. I then asked him if I could record the conversation and he said "no," several times and then said that if I didn't "shut up" and let him talk he would hang up. Naturally, I stopped talking immediately. To make a long story short, I am typing up my notes on how our discussion went and this "cameraman" told me some rather interesting tidbits about Ray Santilli, Bob Shell, Hesemann and Bob Kiviat. He also said he might be willing to do a full "confession", since he claimed that Ray Santilli and others have "misrepresented" the film as it has been promoted!! I will post this info on as soon as I can, and have put it in my hopper of things to get done ASAP. With my new Roswell book out, the media commitments, some time-sensitive projects I am working on, all the EMails, and now THIS, I'll be busy for sometime. I will discuss this tonight on the radio show I guest on, but only if it is appropriate. The Cameraman, by the way, was calling primarily (so he says) in response to the cash REWARD that's been amassed for the successful arrest and civil and criminal prosecution (for mail fraud, fraud, and consumer fraud charges) against those behind the alien autopsy scam. In my new book on Roswell, some slight details about this issue is mentioned, (the reward) and I am making it no secret that I would support such a prosecution of the guilty party(ies) if they can be nailed down. This "cameraman" then launched into a long tirade against Ray Santilli on how he has "misrepresented" some details. (duh!) The "cameraman" also promised to call back and to send me some stills and footage. (Oh boy!) Well, that's it for now, this message is also a "heads-up" in case any of YOU get any phone calls. The cameraman did say that he was "probably" going to call one or two more people, and I recommended to him that he call Bob Todd, Phil Klass, Jim Moseley, and Dennis Stacey. (Sorry, but I couldn't resist doing this!) I find it ironic that this has happened to me...on the other hand I must remember that this "cameraman" telephone call is just as "credible" as some of the other ones that Philip Mantle and Santilli himself claim to have gotten. We must not forget that supporters of the alien autopsy scam cite these phone calls as "evidence" that the case is credible, when it is not. In REALITY, it is simply an anonymous voice on the other end of the phone and unfortunately does NOT prove anything. One interesting note: Despite the fact that I have a caller-ID box on my private line, the call came in as "anonymous" on the box. So much for Caller-ID technology! Since I have my phone set up to REJECT all caller-ID blocked incoming calls, I know it wasn't due to this, otherwise the call would have never gotten through. Finally, I tried dialing *69, (to automatically get a phone number trace and automatically dial back the number the person called from) but the machine said it was unable to "access the number," so I don't know what to make of this. I am now going to view the video I have of the cameraman and see if the voice matches what I remember hearing. I realize all of this proves NOTHING, but it is at least in character with the type of "hard evidence" that exists in this alien autopsy circus. In closing, I promise FULL responses to ALL of your EMails, including replies to: Billy Meier himself, Michael Hesemann, James Deardorff, Bob Shell, Jeroen Jansen, Don Allen, etc. To Pamela 7, I did not know that Hesemann and Mantle's book was even out yet, I just checked with a Barnes-Noble book store in a nearby town where I am scheduled to do a signing in early June on my book and they did not know when they are expecting their copies. I want very much to get a copy of Hesemann and Mantle's book, because I intend to use it in my upcoming lectures and appearances as a shining example of what's WRONG in this field. I will be happy to buy your copy in the interests of saving time and if you really did not like it as you seem to imply. I thank you for the kind comments and the review, but a lot of the credit I am afraid must go to others such as Robert Todd, Karl Pflock, Jim Moseley, Dave Thomas, Brad Sparks, and yes, even William Moore, Stanton Friedman, Kevin Randle, and Don Schmitt. After all, without the tall tales faithfully (and uncritically) recounted by these three latter individuals, there would never have been a book and hence nothing to expose. I just hope the UFO field can get a reality check here, and move forward in doing more productive things and engaging in studying more deserving cases. Respectfully, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Book: 'Left at East Gate'?? From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 21:21:52 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 04:11:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Book: 'Left at East Gate'?? A follow-up on the question of whether Orford Ness lighthouse or the Shipwash lightship were responsible for some of the observations recorded by Lt.Col Halt. It's possible to see the _beams_ from both lights sweeping the sky, but the sources are not readily visible. Although it's over 16 years since the reported events and any direct comparisons now may be questionable, when the case was first investigated by Brenda Butler, Dot Street and Jenny Randles, less than three years afterwards, it was clarified then that the lighthouse beams were an unlikely explanation. In the OMNI article, speaking of the alleged incidents in the forest on the night of the second known incident, Halt also confirmed, "Meanwhile, I recorded this activity on my microcassette recorder. We knew the beam from Orford Ness lighthouse beacon beamed from the south-east. All of a sudden, directly to the east, we saw an unusual red, sunlike light - oval shaped, glowing with a black center - 10 to 15 feet off the ground, moving through the trees". The "Unsolved Mysteries" presentation demonstrated that Halt's comments on the tape about a "flashing light" show it to be synchronised with the rotation of the lighthouse beam. It was however subsequently pointed out that this only applied with the first two rotations, after that there was no correlation. Even if the lighthouse theory could explain some aspects of the lights encountered in the forest, there's still a number of aspects it doesn't appear to resolve. As Halt summarised: "While we were in the process of getting readings, which by the way came out much higher than background radiation, somebody noticed something in the forest, the light. The light was bright as the sun, it was glowing, it had a dark centre and it appeared to have something dripping of it, like molten metal. The light was about...oh... 15 or 20 degrees off to our left, almost directly in front of a farmer's field. As we approached the fence at the edge of the field while watching this object, it suddenly exploded. Now there was never a sound the whole time. It burst suddenly into five objects...five white objects...and disappeared. And at that time we noticed there were several objects in the sky, two to the north and one to the south. They were brightly lit, multi-coloured and they were moving very rapidly together, as though they were in formation. We watched them for several minutes and they kept doing this. We turned and watched the object to the south and suddenly it came toward us at very high speed. It stopped and sent down a beam, like a laser beam. It fell right at our feet and stayed on for several seconds. And just like a flashlight it clicked off". There's no reason why any of these phenomena require to be extraterrestrial in origin, but they're certainly "unusual" as reported. It doesn't necessarily detract from the case if we ignore the second night's occurrences entirely. The events which took place either the night before, or 2 to 3 nights previously, and which involved Burroughs, Penniston, Kavanasac and a number of others, seem to have been of more significance. James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 BWW Media Alert 970503 Supp. From: BufoCalvin@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 20:11:56 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 04:22:06 -0400 Subject: BWW Media Alert 970503 Supp. Bufo Calvin, P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com 510-432-8102 (voice, fax, and recorded messages) TAP (The Address Project) NEARU (National Events by Area Registry of the Unexplained) Bufo's WEIRD WORLD (paper and electronic newsletter) ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert for non-commercial purposes) May 3, 1997 SUPPLEMENT Well, I didn't have time to get everything in before I sent off that last one, so consider this part two. If you did not receive part one (and I expect to be updating the mailing list in-between), let me know and I will re-send. One correction: SCI-FI will not run an episode of SIGHTINGS in the usual Wednesday slot. Oh, and I just found out that the April 1997 issue of PC COMPUTING had a column on weird websites. In it, they mention STRANGE MAGAZINE (among others), and specifically say, "Don't miss the Annual Ten Strangest List, which includes jellies from heaven, a banshee's wail, and Nixon's Ghost." I mention this, because I did that one :) . Great site all around, btw. STRANGE is http://www.strangemag.com. You should be able to get to all the sites in the article from http://www.pccomputing.com. ON-LINE OMNI MAGAZINE's (http://www.omnimag.com) guest on Tuesday night (May 6) from 7-8 PM Pacific will be Christopher O'Brien, author of THE MYSTERIOUS VALLEY* about Colorado's San Luis Valley. RADIO Sunday, May 4 7:00 PM to 10:00 PM Pacific, DREAMLAND (syndicated: see http://www.artbell.com for stations), Art Bell interviews Capt. Bill Miller, author of TAMPA TRIANGLE DEAD ZONE*. I'm almost through with this book, and I'll let you know what I think when I am. 8:00 PM to 11:00 PM Pacific, END OF THE LINE (syndicated: see http://www.endoftheline for stations), which host Jeff Rense tells me is now affiliated with the SIGHTINGS tv show. Guest is Michael Cremo, on "proof" that humans were on Earth one million years ago (which would certainly give the Producers of ONE MILLION YEARS B.C. the last laugh!). Tuesday, May 6 6:00 PM to 8:00 PM Pacific, END OF THE LINE: Jeff's guest is Kal Korff, author of a recent book* (the title is coming to me right now), which claims to (gasp) expose Billy Meier, a one-armed Swiss farmer/contactee of perpetrating a hoax. Btw, FORTEAN TIMES has a letter writer who has a very interesting point about Billy's picture of a pteranadon, if it's true. Wednesday, May 7 6:00 PM to 7:00 PM, Pacific, END OF THE LINE: Michael Lindemann will do his weekly UFO/ET update. It's possible at this point that I will be on the second hour. I'll let you know. If you have anything you'd especially like me to talk about, let me know as soon as it is convenient. Thursday, May 8 6:00 to 8:00 PM, Pacific, END OF THE LINE: John Hogue, author of NOSTRADAMUS: THE COMPLETE PROPHECIES* TELEVISION Sunday, May 4 LOCAL TELEVISION, KING COUNTY, WASHINGTON, 7:00 PM, JOURNEY: first part of an interview with John Hutchinson, who is re-creating some of Tesla's work with anti-gravity and altering metals Monday, May 5 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC & MIRACLES (#29):JACK THE RIPPER; COMMUNION (interview with author* Whitley Strieber); CURSE OF THE KENNEDYS (was the Kennedy family doomed by a gypsy curse?) Tuesday, May 6 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC & MIRACLES (#30): MIRACLE HEALING; THE EVIL INFLUENCE (Aleister Crowley, who took on the role of The Beast); SPIRITS IN OUR MIDST (amerind spirits) Wednesday, May 7 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC & MIRACLES (#31): DRACULA; CRYPTOZOOLOGY (bigfoot, Nessie, et al); BUSHMEN (South African locals) Thursday, May 8 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC & MIRACLES (#32): DOPPELGANGER (sometimes people report seeing themselves...without a mirror); SUPERSTIONS; JENNY COCKELL (past life?) Friday, May 9 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC & MIRACLES (#33): SAVANT SYNDROME (sometimes, smart is as stupid does...); MARILYN'S DEATH (Monroe, of course); MUMMIES (well, it was pretty close to Mummy's Day) This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!" ____________________________ *Want books on these topics over the Internet? Go to http://www.strangemag.com OR You can order books by calling 1-800-905-8367 (615-896-1356 outside the USA). PLEASE TELL THEM BUFO SENT YOU. This is not a paid ad, but if you order something and identify me, I get something. Anything I get will go towards my work in this field. STRANGE Magazine is edited by Mark Chorvinsky. Greenleaf is operated by Marc Davenport and Leah Haley. ------------------------------------------------- **OPUS is the Organization for Paranormal Understanding and Support. I am an Executive Boardmember, and Director of the OPUS Educational Institute. OPUS encourages its officers and Network Associates to express their own opinions: however, it is important to note that I do not speak for OPUS in this piece or others presented under my own name. For more information on OPUS, call toll-free 1-888-999-OPUS. __________________________________________________ You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com. You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to Bufo's WEIRD WORLD (which covers theories and happenings) the same way. Also, please let me know if there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, the week before.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: NICAP and/or APRO files on Web? From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 22:47:54 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 04:21:21 -0400 Subject: Re: NICAP and/or APRO files on Web? >In a message dated 97-05-03 18:13:21 EDT, you write: > Subj: UFO UpDate: Re: NICAP and/or APRO files on Web? > Date: 97-05-03 18:13:21 EDT > From: updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:23:09 -0400 (EDT) > From: "Joe Daniels (UFO JOE)" <ufojoe@cron-2.mco.on.ca> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: NICAP and/or APRO files on Web? > On Sat, 3 May 1997, UFO UpDates - Toronto posted: > > From: DianeOmega@aol.com > > Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 14:15:22 -0400 (EDT) > > To: updates@globalserve.net > > Subject: Information available? > >> Do any of you know if there are NICAP and/or APRO files > >> available on the Web? > >All of those files are probably at CUFOS. The NICAP files have been sent on to CUFOS, but the APRO files, for the most part, remain in the hands of the Lorenzen family. KRandle Search for other documents from or mentioning: krandle993 | ufojoe |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Welcoming Linda From: HONEYBE100@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 03:10:14 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 04:53:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Welcoming Linda >From: "Klemm - Pamela S." <psklemm@umd5.umd.edu> >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Welcoming Linda >Date: Sat. 3 May 1997 10:43:34 -0400 (EDT) In response to Pamela's questions for me... >In Budd's book he relates the "Casper the Ghost in >Christmas Lights" experience. Would you elaborate >on this experience, etc. One evening, when I was about 8 yrs. old, I was looking out of the window and eating cookies. On the neighboring roof top across the way, I saw what I thought was "Casper the Ghost in Christmas Lights." I remember squinting my eyes to get a better look. The next thing I knew, it glided across the roof top and over the other side of the building. I'd thought that Casper had fallen off the roof. I called for my mother to come to the window, but she didn't answer me. I thought she might not have heard me because the water in the kitchen sink was running. Mom was cleaning a chicken. Shortly after that, Mom made me go to sleep. Through my adulthood, this memory always stuck in my mind. Many, many years later in the spring of 1989, I met Budd Hopkins for the first time and he regressed me about this particular memory. It turned out that I saw through the eyes of a child "Casper the Ghost." I looked again, and I saw a big toy top in Xmas lights, as it glided across and over the roof top. Then suddenly, it came from behind the right side of the building towards me. It was a UFO. I screamed for my mother, but she just stood there by the kitchen sink, watching me, but frozen in place. I was taken. Back to the conscious childhood memory: The next day, I told my mother what I had seen the night before and I asked her if she would ask some of the neighborhood people if they saw someone fall off the roof. She shrugged her shoulders, and then agreed to ask for me. Apparently, no one saw anything. >When you mentioned this incident to your parents the next >day did they assume that you had dreamed this? Yes, at first. But when I insisted that I wasn't sleeping, I was looking out of the window, my mother smiled and said, "Ah, to be young again...and to have a terrific imagination!" I felt very much offended. >Other than the abduction experience of 1989, have you >had any other experiences since the writing of your initial >letter that might be abduction or visitation related? Well, prior to the initial letter I wrote to Budd, there were a few strange experiences, I couldn't explain. I didn't know what was going on, but I was frightened. It seemed the more I discussed it with husband, the more it happened. So, I stopped discussing it. After I wrote the initial letter to Budd and I was aware of what might've been happening, I did have a few more experiences since then. Thanks for your questions. Linda Cortile
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Book: 'Left at East Gate'?? From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:22:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 04:38:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Book: 'Left at East Gate'?? >From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] >Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:27:45 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Book: 'Left at East Gate'?? > The facts seem to be that Larry Warren wasn't on base when the events >took place. Even Warren has admitted that he wasn't there. So how could >he possibly provide eyewitness testimony. >KRandle =========================================================================== Hello Kevin, hi All, A piece of information has come into my possesion which I think should go to post. However, I don't want to get caught in the middle of a barrage of questions. I am not an expert on the Bentwaters case. The following post speaks for itself, anyone with any questions should direct them to the originators of the post. Once again it boils down to doing what my conscience says is the "right" thing! I only wish that it would have fallen into the hands of someone else, I really don't like getting in the middle of something that has nothing to do with me in the first place. John Velez ------------------------------------------------------- (Excerpt) On November 6th/88, Lawrence (Larry) Fenwick, noted Canadian UFOlogist was interviewed for ParaNet on Sunday afternoon at the Toronto residence of ParaNet Pi Sysop, Tom Mickus. He had previously agreed to this interview, with the full knowledge that it was being taped, and that the transcript would be released for distribution on the North American ParaNet System. ============================================================== Regarding Bentwaters: <Mickus> "And how many air force personnel do you believe witnessed this..." <Fenwick> "It depends on what part you're talking about, the underground meeting, or the above ground meeting. There were at least a dozen people involved in that case. And there were military policeman involved. One chap who wasn't there, who claimed originally to have been there, was a fellow named Larry Warren. He actually heard it from someone else, another military policeman who was at the underground meeting with the Men In Black [MIB] supposedly. Giving instructions." <Mickus> "But not much is known about that meeting?" <Fenwick> "No, its only referred to very briefly in the book by Jenny Randles and Dot Street, 'Skycrash'. There's another authoress, but I've forgotten her name. I think there's about one or two sentence about that in the whole book. And that was probably the most important aspect of it...and they couldn't get any more information on that. I've got an unpublished manuscript by Larry Warren at home...part of one chapter really...about 10 pages. He's writing a book, so he said that this is not for publication...and he talked about some of his experiences, not there...but as a Military policeman being transferred to some secret NSA facilities in Egypt, and another one in Florida." -------------------------------------------------------------------------- End quote Apparently Larry Warren began writing another book in 1988 about his experiences as a military security policeman with _no_mention_ of the Bentwaters incident. (Odd) It is this partial manuscript, and (I surmise) direct contact with Larry Warren that Mr Fenwick has based his remarks on. If this is so, then,... If anyone knows this "Fenwick" gentleman he should be contacted. First, for confirmation of the above statements, and secondly, to find out if he can produce the manuscript that he derived this information from. I personally found Warren's response to Randle lacking. I originally involved myself because Warren's co-author 'Peter Robbins' is a good friend of mine. I thought that Peter might be hurt by the charges that Randle had leveled and that he deserved an opportunity to respond. But the bottom line is, if Warren is 'telling tales out of school' that takes precedence over whether a friend may have been duped or not! I really value Peter and his friendship. I most sincerely hope, for Peters' sake, that Warren proves to be 'on the level'. If not, then let the chips fall where they may. I'm interested in truth only when it comes to the subject of UFO's. If I want sci-fi I'll read Kurt Vonnegut! Randle is 100% correct on one count, the Bentwaters case is too important to let questions, such as the one he has caused, go unanswered. Which is essentially what Warren has done in his response to Randle. Warren's post _was_ a non-response. Let's see where this one leads us! I almost feel as if I've loosed the hounds of Hell! I hope that some of our more experienced and responsible members pick up on this thread and do a little constructive snooping on behalf of us all! <G> I await further developments along with the rest of you. Truth, is (all) that matters. John Velez * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 'Flying Saucers Invade Europe' From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 05:52:05 +0200 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 04:27:26 -0400 Subject: 'Flying Saucers Invade Europe' It is not my intention to keep on posting these long e-mails, on the contrary, but I just could not resist "Flying Saucers Invade Europe", a 1954 UFO article found during one of my many wanderings on HotBot (superb search engine run by the magazine "Wired"). There are many highlights, but the main reasons were the quotations from and comments on a later totally forgotten 1948 report from the US State Department, which establishes that UFOs are real and controlled by intelligent beings. "Flying Saucers Invade Europe" is based on an extensive compilation of rare and fascinating newspaper stories, and can be found on http://www.esper.com/RareBird/eur-ufo.htm (15548 bytes, 17Jan97). It first appeared "during the European flap of 1950-54 and was printed at the peak of the sightings in a small English language magazine published by Charles Harnett at Kaiserslautern, Germany." There are many gems that will be unknown to a lot of, yes, I dare say all of UFO UpDates readers, though many are well-known experts, so do enjoy! I'll bring you the entire compilation in a short while, but here are a few excerpts, so you can see what I mean. The first is quite sensational, as mentioned, and confirms by quoting an at least nowadays unknown report which originated in the highest layers of US Government that UFOs are real, "controlled in an intelligent manner and ... either piloted or radio-controlled". This secret and probably totally forgotten document was delivered from the U. S. State Department to the Joint Chiefs of Staff on April 28, 1948, but do tell if any of you have heard of it! The article says: "Are flying saucers interplanetary spaceships or missiles from Russia or the United States, if they exist at all? Though some "experts" claim they are piloted by 40-inch tall creatures, others say there is evidence to show that they are supersecret craft of ultra-modern design produced by the Soviet government and used principally for observation. The German illustrated magazine Frankfurter Illustrierte carried a series of articles to advance this theory. It contained the kind of detail that caused many official eyebrows to raise. It told of a secret report delivered on April 28, 1948 from the U. S. State Department to the Joint Chiefs of Staff which stated in part: "From time to time, some saucer-like projectiles have displayed movements that indicate they are controlled in an intelligent manner and are either piloted or radio-controlled. The acceleration of these objects is higher than present normal limits. They are noiseless. With the aid of special instruments, their diameters have been measured to be as large as 100 to 160 feet in diameter." If this article was based on fact, it was directly contradicted by an Air Force official a month later who stated that reports of unidentified flying objects were completely unfounded. The Frankfurt-based magazine went on to quote the chief of the U. S. Defense Staff in Tokyo as stating on May 9, 1953: "In the past few weeks, Navy and Air Force craft operating in the Pacific have seen strange objects on several occasions, objects generally referred to as flying saucers. Their routes could be determined along with their possible home station. Near the island of Tinian one of the objects was struck by an American aircraft and fell into the ocean." *** As some of you may have guessed from my e-mail address, I'm Danish, so it is quite interesting for me that in Europe "Denmark and Italy were reporting more sightings than other countries during this period". From 1952 to 1954 especially, there was a flap of sightings over Scandinavia. Most of the craft appeared to come from behind the Iron Curtain, so in 1954 "Radio Moscow took the unusual step of denying that Russia was behind the saucers. The unprecedented announcement claimed that so-called unidentified flying objects were merely propaganda inventions "to create the impression that Moscow is provoking its neighbors". It denounced western news media for spreading falsehoods." *** According to this last excerpt some of the earliest "post-Arnold" European sightings occurred near Munich and were reported by papers throughout the continent on October 29, 1948: "Five U. S. Air Force pilots observed a mysterious, silvery object similar in appearance to a so-called flying saucer hanging high over Neubiberg Air Base in Bavaria. The object disappeared at a terrific speed after having remained over the air base more than 30 minutes. A similar object had been seen days before by another group of American pilots." The clip is interesting as former astronaut Gordon Cooper had multiple sightings at Neubiberg Air Base in 1951. Well-known debunker James Oberg has not been able to find any clue to this or any other of Cooper's UFO experiences, so probably doesn't know about the 1948 sightings. If he did, he surely would argue that Cooper was inspired by the old incident, though UFO sightings were very common in Europe during this period, especially near military installations as "Flying Saucers Invade Europe" clearly shows. Lately Cooper has told a wide audience of his Neubiberg experiences. At the start of this year he was interviewed by the National Enquirer, and in 1996 on the television show "Paranormal Borderline" he gave correspondent Yolanda Gaskins a short summary of his Neubiberg experiences. The host wasn't correct, however, in stating that Cooper had only told his friends before that. He already had gone public on a few occasions. In 1985, addressing a U.N. panel discussion on UFOs and ETs in New York - chaired by then U.N. Secretary-General Kurt Waldheim - he said: "I did have occasion in 1951 to have two days of observation of many flights of them, of different sizes flying in fighter formation, generally from west to east over Europe. They were at a higher altitude than we could reach with our jet fighters...." "Paranormal Borderline": Host (Jonathan Frakes): But there is another side to Coopers' lifetime in aviation. One that for years he would only discuss with close friends, until now. It involved his personal encounters with UFOs. For him it began in 1951 while flying in Europe for the U.S. Air Force. There Cooper, and other pilots, witnessed an incident that has never been officially explained. A vast armada of UFOs flying in formation at extremely high altitudes. Recently, Yolanda Gaskins spoke with Gordon Cooper. In this exclusive interview Col. Cooper spoke for the first time on television about his encounters with UFOs. YG I've read about this incident you had in 1951, and you said you saw literally hundreds of unidentifiable flying objects. GC Yes they were flying quite high, how high we couldn't tell because we couldn't get anywhere near their altitude, but they were either very large craft way up, or... smaller craft still above well above what we could get to. YG For a day and a half all of this happened... but then no one wanted to talk about it. GC Well we sent a report forward on it, and the answer that finally came back months later was they were probably high flying seed pods, which didn't sound very logical." *** I do hope that I haven't kept you waiting for too long, but I felt that I had to provide just a little background information. Anyhow, this is the article as it appeared in 1954 in Charles Harnett's magazine: Flying Saucers Invade Europe Strange Flying Objecvts Are Appearing in Large Numbers Over the Continent. Are they Secret Weapons of the USSR or....? [This compilation of foreign newspaper stories appeared during the European flap of 1950-54 and was printed at the peak of the sightings in a small English-language magazine published by Charles Harnett at Kaiserslautern, Germany] August 1948 ... All of Europe was still laughing about the many flying saucer sightings reported in the United States the previous year. Americans were certainly making fools of themselves. But the last laugh was yet to come, because on August 16 an Austrian newspaper blazoned its pages with what was described as "the first sightings of flying discs in central Europe". Residents in the Muehlviertel district of Upper Austria along the Czech border had reported seeing flying saucers moving at an exceptionally high rate of speed, then returning just as rapidly to the point where they were first noticed. Soon similar stories were running rampant as strange objects appeared elsewhere. This was the beginning of the European flying saucer flap that began in 1950 and continues unabated to this day. But apparently unknown to many Europeans and most Americans, saucers had been witnessed much earlier and by a good many people throughout the Continent. But there had been no flap -- the sightings had been sporatic and usually reported only in small local papers, mainly in Germany, France and Italy. Turkey entered the controversy early when an Istanbul magazine recalled eyewitness accounts of flying saucers in the Maras region in November 1947, adding that reports had reached Turkey that Soviet scientists had been experimenting with missiles powered by cosmic rays in the region east of Maras, across the Soviet-Turkish border. A newspaper in Rome told how, in March of 1948, seven UFOs were spotted speeding across north Italian skies on a path from northeast to southwest. Eyewitnesses reported that the objects traveled at a very high speed at around 15,000 feet altitude and seemed to emit "deep sounds". A report of August 18, 1949 had eyewitnesses at Lucinico, Trieste near Gorizia seeing flying saucers coming from the direction of the Yugoslav border and proceeding rapidly in a northward direction. On October 29, 1948, newspapers throughout Europe reported this sighting near Munich: "Five U. S. Air Force pilots observed a mysterious, silvery object similar in appearance to a so-called flying saucer hanging high over Neubiberg Air Base in Bavaria. The object disappeared at a terrific speed after having remained over the air base more than 30 minutes. A similar object had been seen days before by another group of American pilots." These reports touched off a chain of speculative comments among astronomers and scientists on the continent, who variously claimed that the objects were from Russia or from outer space. Few seemed to regard them as products of the United States. In November of 1948 reports came from Denmark that unidentified flying objects had been seen at Skagen, Northern Jutland. These were described as missiles which passed over Skagen at high altitude and disappeared northward over Skagerrack. A Danish coast guardsman allegedly saw one disc-like object moving northward at 15,000 feet altitude and then, through binoculars, observed another "shining like silver and traveling in a different direction". Scores of eyewitnesses corroborated the incident. During 1949 saucer sightings over Europe waned but interest was kept alive by reports from the United States that on August 20 officials from the U. S. Air Force's Office of Special Investigation (OSI) had found two dilapidated objects resembling flying saucers in a tobacco shed in the small town of Marley Park, Maryland. The machines, according to a wire service story, had been built before the war by a Jonathan Caldwell who had since disappeared. One of the craft was reported to have flown. Officials said they were interested in finding Caldwell to learn what he had been doing since then and for whom. Hints were made that he might be turning out improved models elsewhere on a larger scale. A German magazine carried a story about the so-called foo-fighters of World War II -- objects reminiscent of flying saucers that appeared usually as small balls of fire and trailed allied fighters and bombers on bombing raids. Rumor had it that these were radar-controlled devices designed by the Germans to track the course of allied aircraft. A French magazine brought from the past a report of a flying saucer seen over Arras centuries before, in 1461. A 500-year old manuscript had been found in which the following appeared: "On the night of All Saints Day a bright object half the size of the moon was seen for almost a quarter hour. It flew rapidly in wild maneuvers, then darted out of sight." The report closely paralleled sightings nearly 500 years later. DPA, the German national press agency, reported in October 1949 that Copenhagen got its first glimpse of "flying fireballs" in and around the city. Balls of fire were also reported over the island of Bornholm in the Baltic, and similar bodies had been sighted over Sweden the week before. Reporters who had written of "Gallic scepticism" after 15 years of supersecret projects under Hitler began to scratch their heads as more and more sightings flooded police stations and newsrooms late in 1949. Could so many people be mistaken by ordinary objects in the sky or hoodwinked by hoaxes? To pragmatic Europeans, it appeared that something was being seen that could and should be explained but weren't. Until 1950, flying saucer stories had attracted little more than passing interest among Europeans. This was to change abruptly. For 1950 and 1951 were to be the years of the most seen over European skies. In the early months, reports came by the hundreds from Belgium, Germany, Sicily, Austria, Lebanon and Portugal. About these, American news organizations were strangely quiet. For example, postal official Josef Brem and his wife claimed to have seen a strange object blazing a trail across the sky over Koetzling, Germany. Brem described it as yellow-silver, disk-shaped, flat like an inverted saucer and surrounded by an opal-shaped, brightly lit ring. He said it remained in view more than a minute before flying off swiftly in a southwesterly direction. Then scores of department store employees in Brussels told police of witnessing a flying saucer zipping about in the sky above their store. The crew of a coast guard ship cruising off north Portugal at night told of seeing dozens of strange objects flying in various formations and moving "faster than tracer bullets". An entire population of a Sicilian village watched in awe as a saucer-shaped object circled the town of Caltagirone, moved in a wide arc, and then disappeared to the southeast. Two Vienna policemen said they glimpsed a UFO heading eastward toward the Czech border, keeping it in view for more than half a minute. Europeans could hardly believe their eyes each morning when they picked up their newspapers to read new reports of strange aerial craft cruising, hovering, speeding and maneurvering over the skies of every country from England to Italy and from Spain to the iron curtain. Denmark and Italy were reporting more sightings than other countries during this period. Some scientists appeared to accept the idea that the objects were either Russian or American. Few followed the theories of American "experts" who spoke of ionized clouds, mirages, meteors or mass hysteria. An occasional European scientist ventured to say it was "possible" that the phenomenon had its origin in outer space. Everyone, it seemed, had an opinion and each was a little different from the other. One American went a little too far to suit most Europeans when he said he believed the objects were the "heavenly host". Another found a biblical phrase that said, "And there shall be signs in the sky". Then, just as suddenly as they came, the strange objects dropped out of sight. Some cases continued to crop up every few weeks in England. And for a short time in France they averaged 20 sightings a day over a three-day period. In January 1952, an expert in meteors in New Mexico made headlines in the leading newspapers of Europe when he stated that a series of green fireballs sighted over the southwestern states were probably not meteors, but more likely guided missiles of Soviet origin. This followed a story in Look magazine that claimed saucers could be manmade vehicles, "most probably Soviet". Then came the story of a 40-year old graduate of the University of Prague and former Luftwaffe Captain Rudolf Schreiver, who claimed to have designed a flying saucer before the collapse of Germany in 1945. He explained that in the early 1940s engineers throughout the world had been experimenting with craft of highly unusual configurations, including the now famous inverted saucer shape. According to Schreiver, a set of blueprints turned up missing from his laboratory and when he gave duplicates to colleagues in Prague they apparently ended up in Russian hands, enabling the Soviets to build a saucer. Late in 1952 the American magazine People Today said that its editors believed flying saucers were not only real but were guided missiles launched from the Soviet Union. The article stated that saucers were being launched from Atomgrad Number 3, a highly secret missile center near Finland. The missiles were described as crewless and deployed mainly for reconnaissance of U. S. atomic and military installations. According to the magazine, "cameras and electronic observation devices" were loaded aboard the craft which were then guided by remote control via a chain of Soviet snorkel submarines in the Atlantic. It seemed the government was not telling the truth for fear of panic. This story was given some credence when Swedish officials recorded the passage of unidentified flying objects hurtling across Scandinavia in a direct line toward the United States. In January 1953 the general staff of the Danish Army issued orders to all servicemen to be on the alert for unidentified flying objects. The order was that any strange aerial apparition should be reported to authorities immediately. An interesting aspect of these sightings is that in most cases the objects appeared to originate from the direction of the iron curtain, and often returned toward the same direction. Coming at the height of the cold war, this led some psychologists to speculate that the sightings were an example of mass hysteria caused by international tensions or fear of a Soviet invasion. Early in 1954, a Swedish pilot observed a strange metallic circular object flying at supersonic speed over southern Sweden well within range of secret Soviet rocket bases. The craft was in sight for 10 seconds. Days later, Radio Moscow took the unusual step of denying that Russia was behind the saucers. The unprecedented announcement claimed that so-called unidentified flying objects were merely propaganda inventions "to create the impression that Moscow is provoking its neighbors". It denounced western news media for spreading falsehoods. On March 26, 1954 five control tower personnel at a NATO air base near Landstuhl, Germany reported seeing a UFO. F-86 Sabrejets were scrambled but failed to get close to the illusive object. Eyewitnesses said the object appeared several times during the early evening hours but each time the jets tried to close, they were not able to get near it. Speed of the object was said to be moving fairly slowly, leading some to speculate that the object was a weather balloon. However, no balloons were reported in the area and the object seemed to easily outmaneuver the jets. The Air Force released no conclusions following the sighting. Are flying saucers interplanetary spaceships or missiles from Russia or the United States, if they exist at all? Though some "experts" claim they are piloted by 40-inch tall creatures, others say there is evidence to show that they are supersecret craft of ultra-modern design produced by the Soviet government and used principally for observation. The German illustrated magazine Frankfurter Illustrierte carried a series of articles to advance this theory. It contained the kind of detail that caused many official eyebrows to raise. It told of a secret report delivered on April 28, 1948 from the U. S. State Department to the Joint Chiefs of Staff which stated in part: "From time to time, some saucer-like projectiles have displayed movements that indicate they are controlled in an intelligent manner and are either piloted or radio-controlled. The acceleration of these objects is higher than present normal limits. They are noiseless. With the aid of special instruments, their diameters have been measured to be as large as 100 to 160 feet in diameter." If this article was based on fact, it was directly contradicted by an Air Force official a month later who stated that reports of unidentified flying objects were completely unfounded. The Frankfurt-based magazine went on to quote the chief of the U. S. Defense Staff in Tokyo as stating on May 9, 1953: "In the past few weeks, Navy and Air Force craft operating in the Pacific have seen strange objects on several occasions, objects generally referred to as flying saucers. Their routes could be determined along with their possible home station. Near the island of Tinian one of the objects was struck by an American aircraft and fell into the ocean." Major Donald E. Keyhoe, a marine reserve officer, personally investigated UFOs and has written articles and books purporting to prove that the illusive objects are interplanetary spacecraft. His latest book is due to be released in Europe soon. Whatever side of the controversy you favor, one thing is for certain. So many eyewitnesses cannot be wrong. Thousands upon thousands of persons throughout the world have seen these objects with their own eyes and refuse explanations of mass hysteria, reflections in the sky or misinterpretations of ordinary objects. Most recently, the Air Force has admitted that 20 percent of UFO sightings reported by Americans are mysteries yet to be explained. But what of the many more thousands of Europeans who have also witnessed these flying phantoms? What percentage of them are unexplainable and who is investigating them? It's been said that a secret is the hardest thing to keep. Perhaps the riddle of the UFOs, if now a well kept secret, may be answered in our lifetimes.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Kal Korff Gets Call From Autopsy "Cameraman"!! From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 04 May 97 10:26:45 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 13:07:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff Gets Call From Autopsy "Cameraman"!! >From: TotlResrch@aol.com >Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 21:02:31 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Kal Korff Gets Call From Autopsy "Cameraman"!! Kal, >In REALITY, it is simply an anonymous voice on the other end of the phone and >unfortunately does NOT prove anything. >One interesting note: Despite the fact that I have a caller-ID box on my >private line, the call came in as "anonymous" on the box. So much for >Caller-ID technology! >Since I have my phone set up to REJECT all caller-ID blocked incoming calls, >I know it wasn't due to this, otherwise the call would have never gotten >through. >Finally, I tried dialing *69, (to automatically get a phone number trace and >automatically dial back the number the person called from) but the machine >said it was unable to "access the number," so I don't know what to make of >this. You don't seem to know much about caller ID. I have it too, and one of the limitations is that it only works for certain areas. If someone calls from an area not served by your phone company's caller ID network, you will get "NO CALLER ID NUMBER" on your box (not "anonymous"). If that happens, calling *69 (or whatever the code is in your area) will not work, either, since both systems use the same information to provide numbers. I've discussed caller ID in great detail with technicians at my telephone company, because I wanted to know exactly how it worked and why it didn't work for some areas. I have no idea about your physical location, but in my area calls from Florida (where I think the cameraman lives) all come in "NO CALLER ID NUMBER" because Florida's network system is incompatible with the one used here in Virginia. There is nothing mysterious about this at all. >To Pamela 7, I did not know that Hesemann and Mantle's book was even out yet, >I just checked with a Barnes-Noble book store in a nearby town where I am >scheduled to do a signing in early June on my book and they did not know when >they are expecting their copies. I want very much to get a copy of Hesemann >and Mantle's book, because I intend to use it in my upcoming lectures and >appearances as a shining example of what's WRONG in this field. I will be >happy to buy your copy in the interests of saving time and if you really did >not like it as you seem to imply. I don't like to accuse people of lies, but it is flatly impossible for Pamela to have bought a copy of _Beyond Roswell_ because it has not been published yet. A number of uncorrected proofs are in circulation among researchers, but that's all. The book will be out some time next month. Unless one of these researchers sold Pam one of these proofs (which would be highly unethical), she has not bought a copy. I do not agree with everything Mike and Philip say in the book, far from it, but I respect both of them as dedicated researchers genuinely looking for the truth. I think _Beyond Roswell_ will be the ultimate book on the Roswell story for some time to come. Of course, I will buy your book as well, since I am interested to see your unique take on this. As for whether the man who phoned you is the man Santilli bought the film from, I have no way of knowing, but I doubt it. I seriously doubt that he would even have heard of you. I suspect that this call was simply a send-up. But, I could be wrong, and I do know that the relationship between him and Santilli has been pretty sour recently. If he has decided to out himself through you, that's cool with me. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 MUFON Seection on CompuServe's Encounters forum From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 04 May 97 10:26:37 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 13:20:00 -0400 Subject: MUFON Seection on CompuServe's Encounters forum SHELLfax TO: WALT ANDRUS FROM: BOB Shell 1601 Grove Ave. Radford, VA 24141 USA RETURN FAX: (540) 633-1710 RETURN PHONE: (540) 639-4393 CompuServe: 76750,2717 DATE: May 3, 1997 Dear Walt, It was really a pleasure to see you at the Ozark Conference this year, and I hope you found my talk interesting and informative. I think it was a very good conference. I wanted to share my thoughts with you over the recent debacle on CompuServe's Encounters forum, where the MUFON section was shut down the very weekend we were in Eureka Springs. No reasonable explanation for this action has ever been given to forum members. I tried to find out what had happened, as did Theresa Carlson and Terry Blanton, the two who were doing all the work on the MUFON section. Rebecca Keith (Schatte) has also attempted to determine just what happened. I was rewarded for my efforts with a very offensive letter from Michael Curta, which I understand Rebecca has forwarded to you. I sent him a very calm and reasoned reply, but he has not had the courtesy to respond. And I have now determined that he apparently did not have the authority he claimed, since he had resigned as director of MUFON on CompuServe. I don't want to get into the politics of this. There is far too much of politics in UFOlogy as it is, and I find it very depressing. I just want to state that the MUFON section of the Encounters Forum was the best of all the on-line places for communication and real research. It was a resource whose value could not be tabulated in dollars and cents, and much important research was done there. The library of the section was the best collection of valuable documents available anywhere. Now this is all gone, and for what? If there were problems, none of us using the section for communication and research were aware of them. Things were working perfectly smoothly and I was dumbfounded when Rebecca told me at the conference that the section had been suddenly shut down. In fact, it sounded so ridiculous that I didn't believe it until I got home and checked. Not that I question Rebecca's veracity, but I just thought it had to be a misunderstanding of some sort since I was certain that such a valuable resource could not just vanish overnight. Anyway, I just wanted to give you my thoughts. I hope you will see your way clear to get the MUFON section of Encounters re-opened so that those of us who came to rely on it can have access to it again. If I can be of any help in any way, just let me know. Best wishes, Bob Shell
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Upcoming UFO related Conferences From: SKvs <bradford@globalserve.net> [Sue Kovios] Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 09:09:59 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 12:53:45 -0400 Subject: Upcoming UFO related Conferences MAY 17th BURNLEY UFO CONFERENCE - A Day of Strange Phenomena=20 Venue: The Comfort Friendly Hotel=20 Speakers: Dr Rauni-Leena-Luukarem Kilde, Albert Budden, George Wingfield, Barry King, Turan Rifat, Eris Morris=20 More Information: Phone Sam (01253 691301), Paulette (01253 391704), or June (01253 356821)=20 JUNE 21st - 22nd 50th ANNIVERSARY ROSWELL WEEKEND=20 Venue: Imperial College, London=20 Speakers: Graham W. Birdsall, Nick Pope, Stanton T. Friedman, Russel Callaghan, Anthony Dodd, George Knapp, Allan Alford, Edward Ashpole=20 (A fantastic 50th weekend anniversary celebration of Roswell and a unique opportunity to take stock of current international scientific thinking as we ask: Are we truly alone in the universe?).=20 Time: 10.55am to 7.00pm (Doors open: 9.45am)=20 Admission: Adults: =A312.50 Concessions: =A310.00 Both Days: =A320.00=20 Tickets: available from: UFO Magazine=20 http://www.ufomag.co.uk/=20 JULY 5th SOUTHEND UFO GROUP CONVENTION=20 Venue: Civic Centre, Southend, Essex=20 Speakers: Busty Taylor, Robert La Mont, Maria Ward, Steve Gerrard, Roy Lake= =20 Admission: =A310.00 or =A38.00 prebooked=20 Phone: 01702 79253=20 AUGUST 16th - 17th THE 9th BUFORA INTERNATIONAL UFO CONGRESS=20 Venue: Pennine Theatre, Sheffield Hallum University=20 PROVISIONAL SPEAKERS Alan Alford, Vicki Cooper-Ecker, Don Ecker, Nick Redfern, Peter Robbins, Derek Sheffield, Larry Warren. Line-Up subject to change Tickets: =A315 per day or =A325 for both days (All cheques should be made payable to BUFORA Ltd)=20 Ticket & Information Hotline: 01484 721993=20 Full Information: British UFO Research Association, BM BUFORA, London, WC1N 3XX 101322.715@compuserve.com=20 http://www.bufora.org.uk/=20 SEPTEMBER 19th - 21st 16th LEEDS INTERNATIONAL UFO CONFERENCE=20 Venue: Leeds University Conference Auditorium=20 Speakers: Anthony Dodd, Brian O'Leary, Graham W. Birdsall, Russel Callaghan, Carlos Diaz. Plus three further speakers to be announced=20 Tickets: available from: UFO Magazine=20 http://www.ufomag.co.uk/=20 SAN MARINO=20 June 6th - 8th 5th ANNUAL UFO SYMPOSIUM=20 Venue: Tourism Theatre=20 Details: Dr. Roberto Pinotti, Via Odorico Da Pordenone 36, Florence, 50127, Italy. Phone/Fax: (39) 55 353 498=20 USA=20 Denver UFO Society The Denver UFO Society meets the fourth Friday of the month at the Glendale Community Center at 7:00pm. 1997 is our 40th year in operation making us about the oldest UFO group in continuous operation.=20 Starpeople (New York)=20 Starpeople is a group formed for Abductees/Experiencers=20 Meetings are held on the first Thursday of every month at:=20 Levittown Hall, Levittown Parkway=20 Hicksville, New York=20 For Information on Lectures/Discussions contact:=20 Joanne or Janet=20 POB 462=20 Farmingdale,NY 11735=20 Fax: 516-654-3173=20 Fax: 516-843-1923=20 Rosebuds6@aol.com=20 wolflady@aol.com=20 MAY 3rd THE GREAT MID ATLANTIC 50th ANNIVERSARY UFO SYMPOSIUM=20 Venue: Bethesda Ramada Inn, Wisconsin Avenue, Maryland=20 Speakers: (include) Stanton Friedman, Linda Howe, Bruce Maccabee, Robert Swiatek, Peter Resta, 'Anna Jamerson and Beth Collings' - There will be an investigators workshop in the morning conducted by Dr. Bruce, Macr-aboo, MUFON Stat.-- Director for Maryland.=20 More Information: Phone Tom Burch on (301) 349-2434 or E-Mail Steven Kaeser at steve@konsulting.com=20 The workshop starts at 9:00 AM. The day will conclude with a panel= discussion. Cost for the entire Symposium (includes morning workshop, lunch, afternoon lectures and evening lecture and discussion) is $35.00. Afternoon and= evening sessions cost $30.00, and evening alone (1 lecture and the panel discussion) costs $25.00.=20 MAY 24th THE SIGNS HAVE ARRIVED=20 Venue: Dartmouth College, Hanover, New Hampshire=20 Speakers: Richard L. Thompson, Dr. Charles Thomas Cayce, Richard L. Thompson, Colin Andrews=20 Also contains details for "A CONVERSATION WITH DR. CHARLES THOMAS CAYCE"=20 MAY 17th SLV/UPPER ARKANSAS UFO & PARANORMAL CONFERENCE - Alamosa=20 Venue: Carson Auditorium, Adams State College, Alamosa, CO=20 Speakers: David Perkins, Davina Ryzska, Tim Edwards, Gail Staehlin, Shari Adamiak, Christopher O'Brien=20 Time: 12:00 noon to 7:00 pm (Doors open around 11.00am)=20 Tickets: priced at a low of $10 are available from:=20 Christopher O'Brien or Tim Edwards PO Box 223, 8020 County Rd 24 Crestone, Salida CO 81131 CO 81201 MAY 18th SLV/UPPER ARKANSAS UFO & PARANORMAL CONFERENCE - Salida=20 Venue: Salida Senior's Center, Salida, CO=20 Speakers: David Perkins, Davina Ryzska, Tim Edwards, Gail Staehlin, Shari Adamiak, Christopher O'Brien=20 Time: 12:00 noon to 7:00 pm (Doors open around 11.00am)=20 Tickets: priced at a low of $10 are available from:=20 Christopher O'Brien or Tim Edwards PO Box 223, 8020 County Rd 24 Crestone, Salida CO 81131 CO 81201 JUNE 21st - 22nd "THE UFO EVENT OF THE YEAR"=20 Venue: The Holiday Inn, North Haven, Connecticut=20 Speakers: Stanton Friedman and John Mack=20 Time: 9.30am to 6.00pm=20 REGISTRATION FEE: Per Day: $65 until March 31; $75 thereafter. Both Days: $120 until March 31; $150 thereafter.=20 (Senior citizen discount of 10% for people 65 or older. Student discount= (see the Omega UFO Conference site for conditions) of 25%)=20 Details: Omega Communications, PO Box 2051, Cheshire, CT, 06410 or visit the Omega UFO Conference web site (includes on-line booking form):=20 http://www.spacebetween.com/omega.html=20 JULY 1st - 6th ENCOUNTER '97: THE 50th ANNIVERSARY OF THE ROSWELL INCIDENT=20 Venue: Various locations in Roswell=20 EVENTS=20 FAMILY FESTIVAL Activities throughout the event=20 JULY 1st - 5th=20 LIVE THEATRE and FILMS=20 JULY 3rd - 6th=20 CONFERENCE=20 Speakers: Don Schmitt, Linda Moulton Howe, Art Bell, Paul Davids, Michael Lindemann, Erich von Daniken, Stanton Friedman, Lance Strong Eagle, John Hunter Gray.....plus others to be confirmed.=20 The brief details above are just a small extract from the detailed= information available at The International UFO Museum and Research Center (IUFOMRC) web site.=20 http://www.iufomrc.com/enc.htm=20 JULY 11th - 13th THE 28th ANNUAL MUFON INTERNATIONAL UFO SYMPOSIUM: "The 50th Anniversary of UFOlogy"=20 Venue: Amway Grand Plaza Hotel, Grand Rapids, Michigan=20 Details: MUFON, 103 Oldtowne Rd., Seguin, Texas, 78155-4099, USA Phone (210) 379-9216 Fax: (210) 372-9439.=20 mufonhq@aol.com=20 AUGUST 10th - 17th INTERNATIONAL UFO CONGRESS - Summer Conference=20 Venue: The Gold River Resort, Laughlin, Nevada=20 Further Information: International UFO Congress, 9975 Wadsworth Pkway #K2-274, Westminster, CO 80020. USA=20 OCTOBER 31st - NOVEMBER 1st 3rd UFO & ALIEN ABDUCTION RESEARCH CONFERENCE=20 Venue: Greenville, South Carolina=20 Speakers: Richard Boylan and others to be announced=20 Additional information: Ms. Shannon Kluge (864) 675-9328=20 NOVEMBER 2nd FIRST ANNUAL UFO CONFERENCE Sponsored by THE EYES OF LEARNING INC. (non-profit organization) & STARPEOPLE=20 Venue: Levittown Hall, Levittown Parkway, Hicksville, New York=20 Speakers: Budd Hopkins (Author - Witnessed), Harold Eglen Jr. (Founder of support group S P A C E), Paul Williams (UFO Desk WBAI 99.5), Rev. Michael Carter (UFOs and The Bible) Also features Panel Of Regressed Abductees plus Alien Artwork by Rick Smith Time: 9.00am to 7.30pm=20 Tickets: $50.00 prepaid by Sept 1st 1997 or $60.00 at the door if available= =20 Send check or moneyorder to:=20 Eyes of Learning=20 Joanne or Janet=20 POB 462=20 Farmingdale=20 NY 11735=20 Please send SASE=20 Or you can contact Janet:=20 Rosebuds6@aol.com=20 Fax: fax Janet 516 654 3173=20 Or you can contact Joanne:=20 Wolflady@aol.com=20 Fax: 516-654-3173=20 http://members.aol.com/Wolflady/TVshow.html=20 GULF BREEZE UFO CONFERENCE (held in November)=20 Contact: Project Awareness=20 P.O. Box 730=20 Gulf Breeze=20 FL 32562=20 Telephone: 904-432-8888=20 INTERNATIONAL MUFON SYMPOSIUM (held in July)=20 Contact: MUFON=20 103 Oldtowne Road=20 Seguin=20 TX 78155-4099=20 Telephone: 512-379-9216=20 NICUFO ANNUAL CONFERENCE Contact: NICUFO (National Investigations Committee on UFOs)=20 P.O. Box 73=20 Van Nuys=20 CA 91408-0073=20 Telephone: 818-989-5942=20 ROCKY MOUNTAIN UFO CONFERENCE (held in June)=20 IFUFOCS (Institute for UFO Contactee Studies)=20 1425 Steele Street=20 Laramie=20 WY 82070=20 Telephone: 307-745-7897, 307-721-5125=20 SAN FRANCISCO EXPO WEST (held in November)=20 P.O. Box 1011=20 Pacific Palisades=20 CA 90272=20 Telephone: 415-905-8874=20 UFO/ALIEN/E.T. &; ABDUCTION CONGRESS (held in March)=20 UFO hot line: 609-888-1358=20 The UFO EXPERIENCE ANNUAL CONFERENCE Contact: Omega Communications=20 P.O. Box 2051=20 Cheshire=20 CT 06410=20 Sue 'A genius is somebody who was a crackpot until his ideas caught on.' At the end of all our searching, we will arrive at the beginning and know the place for the first time. Search for other documents from or mentioning: bradford | 101322.715 |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Book: 'Left at East Gate'?? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 12:32:11 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 12:32:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Book: 'Left at East Gate'?? I called Larry Fenwick of The Canadian UFO Research Network (CUFORN) in Toronto this morning and read him John Velez's post to UpDates..... >Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:22:35 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Book: 'Left at East Gate'?? >>From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] >>Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:27:45 -0400 (EDT) >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Book: 'Left at East Gate'?? >> The facts seem to be that Larry Warren wasn't on base when the events >>took place. Even Warren has admitted that he wasn't there. So how could >>he possibly provide eyewitness testimony. >>KRandle [snip] > (Excerpt) > On November 6th/88, Lawrence (Larry) Fenwick, noted Canadian > UFOlogist was interviewed for ParaNet on Sunday afternoon at > the Toronto residence of ParaNet Pi Sysop, Tom Mickus. He had > previously agreed to this interview, with the full knowledge > that it was being taped, and that the transcript would be > released for distribution on the North American ParaNet System. > ============================================================== > Regarding Bentwaters: > <Mickus> "And how many air force personnel do you believe > witnessed this..." > <Fenwick> "It depends on what part you're talking about, the > underground meeting, or the above ground meeting. > There were at least a dozen people involved in that > case. And there were military policeman involved. One > chap who wasn't there, who claimed originally to have > been there, was a fellow named Larry Warren. He actually > heard it from someone else, another military policeman > who was at the underground meeting with the Men In Black > [MIB] supposedly. Giving instructions." > <Mickus> "But not much is known about that meeting?" > <Fenwick> "No, its only referred to very briefly in the book by > Jenny Randles and Dot Street, 'Skycrash'. There's > another authoress, but I've forgotten her name. I think > there's about one or two sentence about that in the > whole book. And that was probably the most important > aspect of it...and they couldn't get any more information > on that. I've got an unpublished manuscript by Larry > Warren at home...part of one chapter really...about 10 > pages. He's writing a book, so he said that this is not > for publication...and he talked about some of his > experiences, not there...but as a Military policeman > being transferred to some secret NSA facilities in > Egypt, and another one in Florida." > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >End quote Regarding the above interview with Tom Mickus in November of 1988, Larry Fenwick told me that Mickus had plied him with several beers and Fenwick, not being a drinker, had gotten fairly 'light-headed'. It was at that point that Mickus pulled out his tape-machine and asked if would be okay to record their conversation. Fenwick said: "Sure!" He maintains that he had no idea that their conversation would be transcribed and distributed world-wide, despite Mickus' assertion to the contrary, and that he didn't say many of the things that Mickus' transcript says he did. >Apparently Larry Warren began writing another book in 1988 about >his experiences as a military security policeman with _no_mention_ >of the Bentwaters incident. (Odd) It is this partial manuscript, >and (I surmise) direct contact with Larry Warren that Mr Fenwick has >based his remarks on. If this is so, then,... >If anyone knows this "Fenwick" gentleman he should be contacted. >First, for confirmation of the above statements, and secondly, to >find out if he can produce the manuscript that he derived this >information from. [snip] >Let's see where this one leads us! I almost feel as if I've loosed >the hounds of Hell! I hope that some of our more experienced and >responsible members pick up on this thread and do a little >constructive snooping on behalf of us all! <G> Larry Fenwick is in the midst of some changes in his life and consequently is "very busy at the moment!" "It wasn't a 'manuscript' - it was a _letter_.", says Fenwick. He thinks Warren's letter to him was written in either 1989 or '90. He has it on file, but its buried in his archives amongst 2,000 or so pieces of correspondence. It'll take a few days to dig-out, because of the immediate things he needs to take care of. He's assured me that once he finds it, he'll give me a call and let me know if his memory of it has served him well. Fenwick doesn't recall all the details but Warren's letter was only a couple of pages long - not 10 as has been reported here and that Warren had written to him 'in confidence'. Warren didn't mention Bentwaters, though Fenwick does recall that the 'Dulce' case was mentioned. The letter focused on Warren's 'security work' in Egypt. Fenwick has not met Warren, he did meet Robbins at a TV station in Toronto "a couple of years ago". He feels that "Warren is telling the truth about his Bentwaters experiences" and that "Kevin Randle is only guessing that Warren wasn't present during the Bentwaters Incident." I'm not sure that Larry Fenwick is prepared to disclose the full contents of Warren's 'letter' to him. He feels that he needs to fulfill his commitment as to its 'confidentiallity'. "Despite the fact that it Warren's story could be detrimental to ufology?", I asked. "I don't think it contained _anything_ 'detrimental' to ufology", was his response. So, I don't think we're any further ahead with this part of the 'story'. Errol Bruce-Knapp
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Spooky Duke in the Big Apple From: "Greg Sandow" <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 10:58:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 17:02:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Spooky Duke in the Big Apple Gotta second every word that John Velez wrote: > Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 01:40:28 -0500 > To: updates@globalserve.net > From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) > Subject: Spooky Duke in the Big Apple > > I had the pleasure of spending two afternoons with the notorius > Mendoza. (aka Peter Brookesmith) He's a genuinely bright, charming, > funny and down to earth person. [etc] > I disagree with Peter on *almost everything* concerning UFO's and > especially anything connected to the abduction phenom. But I can't > help liking the hell out of him. I believe that almost in spite of > our dramatic differences in views/beliefs and the fact that I KNOW > I'll be pissed as hell when I read his book,... I spent hours with the guy, and couldn't have said it better. Duke Peter is smart, honorable, and a great deal of fun, though wrong, of course, on everything (well, nearly everything) that concerns UFOs. Still, if every skeptic was as open-minded as Peter can be, the world (and ufology) would be much better off. And I was happy to meet someone as disreputable as myself, who can quote Nietzche on Parsifal and has suitably decadent tastes in food, drink, and women... Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Welcoming Linda From: "Klemm - Pamela S." <psklemm@umd5.umd.edu> Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 08:14:51 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 21:06:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Welcoming Linda >From: HONEYBE100@aol.com >Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 03:10:14 -0400 (EDT) >To: <UpDates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Welcoming Linda In response to one of my questions regarding the increase of incidents after the writing of the book, Linda replied: >Well, prior to the initial letter I wrote to Budd, there were >a few strange experiences, I couldn't explain. I didn't know >what was going on, but I was frightened. It seemed the >more I discussed it with husband, the more it happened. >So, I stopped discussing it. After I wrote the initial letter >to Budd and I was aware of what might've been happening, >I did have a few more experiences since then. Linda, I appreciate your candid response to my questions. I would be interested in hearing of the later experiences if you would care to share them. I am also curious about the apparent increase in activity. Looking back on this time in your life now, in 1997, do you think these events actually increased or did you personally become more aware of what was happening around you because of your discussions? When Budd regressed you to find out the details of the 1989 abduction there is a time when you say: "Steve! Why don't you wake up?" My children. What's happening to my children?" Prior to this, you recognized the "beginnings" of an abduction and were desperately trying to fight it off. The reference to your children...did you think that they were going to be taken with you that night? If so were there memories of them being abducted with you before? After you recount what happened on board the craft and return back to the apartment in the regression, you "slip" back into an earlier event that happened from your childhood. From the memories of this earlier experience you were able to confirm that these aliens were the same in both abductions and Budd mentions that the craft you were in as a youth came to rest underwater on the "murky bottom of what she took to be the East River..." Was this the same Casper the Ghost experience you mentioned earlier? Were you able to recall what happened on board the craft during this daytime childhood abduction? Thank you for your time. Pam K.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: "Greg Sandow" <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 11:13:53 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 17:07:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell Well, listen Kal...I haven't read your book, either, so shoot me. Nor am I going to comment on it, for precisely that reason. Still, there's something I asked you here before, which maybe you'll respond to, now that you're back. (And believe me, I understand about getting so busy you ignore UFO UpDates!) Some time ago, in a post here, you said Kevin Randle is a "career military officer." Or maybe you didn't use exactly those words, but that's certainly what you said. I wondered where you'd gotten that information, because... ...Kevin is no such thing. According to what he told me some time ago, he served in the army as a helicopter pilot in Vietnam, then went to college, then enlisted in the Air Force, left after one tour of duty (unless my memory and my notes fail me here; Kevin, is this right?) and then served a number of years in the Air Force reserve. For the past 11 years, he's made his living as a freelance writer. It's true that he's billed on some of his early books as Kevin D. Randle, Capt, USAF (ret), but he tells me this was his publisher's idea. In any case, I wouldn't believe billing on a book jacket until I'd checked it. So, Kal, the question is...did you really do all that Roswell research and neglect to discover exactly what one of the principal Roswell researchers does for a living? Even if that's so, it wouldn't invalidiate anything else you say; we all make mistakes. But it's curious. Footnote to Kevin -- sorry I didn't respond to your comment to me about Larry Warren. I was smiling when I read it....when you said, in effect, so what if I liked and trusted Peter Robbins, because you'd been wrong about Glenn Dennis and Don Schmitt. Good point, and if all of us in this field were as open-minded and quick to acknowledge errors as you are, ufology would be a lot better off. Thanks! Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 08:14:35 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 17:01:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell > Date: 02 May 97 12:34:11 EDT > From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Korff's New Book on Roswell > >From: Pamela7@aol.com > >Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:32:50 -0400 (EDT) > >To: Updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: NEW ROSWELL BOOK! > Pam, > >I am embarrassed to have purchased, for example, Michael Hesemann and Phil > >Mantle's book on Roswell. Korff not only convincingly disproves their claims > >in his book, but having independently checked Hesemann's claims for myself > >now, he is not telling the truth I am afraid > How did you purchase this book? Interesting, since it has not been > published yet!! > >Korff's book is not nearly as long as his previous one on Silly Meier, and it > >does not include as many pictures. It only has 24. The photos speak for > >themselves, though, especially the alien autopsy stills and the photo of the > >cameraman. > Korff does not have permission to publish photos from the alien autopsy. If > he has done so, he can expect to hear from Ray Santilli's lawyers. > Bob Pam, I too would like to know hopw you have managed to purchase a copy of BEYOND ROSWELL as it is not on sale as yet as far as I'm aware. I share also Bob Shell's comments concerning the autopsy photo's, what does this say about his 'research' when he publishes photo's without permission ? Philip Mantle. > UFO UpDates - Toronto - updates@globalserve.net > Operated by Errol Bruce-Knapp - ++ 416-696-0145 > > An E-Mail Subscription Service for the Study of > UFO Related Phenomena > > UFO UpDates Instant Archive now available at > http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates > > MUFON Ontario's Home Page: > http://auraland.com/mufon/index.htm Search for other documents from or mentioning: el51 | 76750.2717 |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Lake Ontario - news.group item, 1993 From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 11:34:14 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 18:52:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Lake Ontario - news.group item, 1993 > From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, on 5/4/97 2:14 AM: > Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:15:10 +0100 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Sean <Tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> > Subject: RE- Lake Ontario - news.group item, 1993 > It has been well noted that over here in England UFO sightings are very > *popular* around nuclear powerplants, I wonder is it like that all > around the world? UFOs have always been "interested" in power plants and other installations. John Fuller's book on the "Incident At Exeter" demonstrated a significant interest in power lines, Fowler's "UFOs: Interplanetary Visitors" and NICAPs "UFO Evidence" confirm a pattern of interest in vehicles, power plants, defense installations, etc. But then again, UFOs have also demonstrated an interest in homes and lone individuals, and prosaic stuff like rocks and plants. > It has been suggested by some that there are two reasons for this. > 1)The *alien's* are interested in our *primitive* technology. > 2)(even stranger) That some particular alien race (I forget thier name) > have been "assigned" the "job" of keeping an eye on the reactors incase > of a catastrophy. One begins to wonder what they did wrong with > Chernobyl? There is insufficient evidence to develop theories of intent. For instance, Fuller and Lorenzen theorized that the interest in powerlines was a prelude to the '65 blackout in the Northeast US, but similar interest was exhibited elsewhere in the world, and at many times before and since. This is not to discount the theory, but simply to say that specific theories of intent have not been provable or falsifiable on the basis of the evidence available to this point. ------- Mark Cashman, creator of the Temporal Doorway at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/5623/ Original digital art, writing and UFO research mcashman@ix.netcom.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Kal Korff to DRudiak From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 12:19:59 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 19:13:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff to DRudiak > From: TotlResrch@aol.com > Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 18:26:56 -0400 (EDT) > To: Updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Kal Korff to DRudiak > >From: DRudiak@aol.com > >Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:48:02 -0400 (EDT) > >To: Updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: Korff's New Book on Roswell > >Dear Mr. Rudiak, > >Just a short response for now, as I am VERY BUSY at the moment - Will >respond > >more in depth later as time permits: > >1) Since you have NOT READ MY NEW ROSWELL BOOK YET, you are in NO > >POSITION to COMMENT ON ITS CONTENTS!! > <Snip> > >3) You are also VERY WRONG ABOUT MARCEL'S RECORDS. How do you EXPLAIN THE > >FACT THAT MARCEL LIED ABOUT BEING A PILOT AND THAT HE HAD A DEGREE IN > >PHYSICS > >FROM LOUISIANA STATE UNIVERSITY, WHEN THE TRUTH IS HE DID NOT! ALSO, IF > >MARCEL WAS SO "RELIABLE" THEN WHY DID HE LIE (BLATANTLY) ABOUT HAVING SHOT > >DOWN 5 ENEMY AIRCRAFT AND BEING AWARDED FIVE AIR MEDALS WHEN HE CERTAINLY > >WASN'T?? HE ALSO LIED ABOUT ENTERING THE ARMY as an aide to general >Hap > >Arnold! How do you explain this? First, if you read the Pratt interview carefully, you see that Marcel did not say that he was a pilot, but that he had flown AS a pilot. That's not really the same thing. Apparently, as the only former member of Army Aviation in this debate, I can say, with authority, that those personnel assigned to aviation units often flew in positions for which they weren't qualified. My crew chief and door gunner both had "stick" time. That is, they flew AS pilots but weren't rated as such. I have had commissioned officers fly as door gunners although not qualified in those position. None of this would show up in the records. Second, we must assume that everything in the military record is 100% accurate. EVERY former military officer to whom I have spoken have said that his or her record contains errors, some of which were so unimportant that it was more effort to fix than it was worth. In my own case, my record shows I have two air medals. I have 41. Yes, I can prove the other awards but it really wasn't worth the effort. In my own case, my record doesn't reflect a college degree. However, I received a commission through ROTC and the only way to receive such a commission is with a college degree. In other words, my record contains contradictory information. Second, I see no evidence that Marcel ever claimed to have a degree in nuclear physics from LSU. I see that he claimed to have attended LSU for a year and a half and studied physics. The Pratt interview is very vague on this point. And, we are assuming that Pratt transcribed the tape perfectly. Third, to everyone other than Bob Pratt Marcel said that he had shot down ONE enemy aircraft. Is it possible that Pratt, because Marcel said he had five air medals, thought he shot down an enemy aircraft for each one. Is it possible that Marcel didn't LIE, but Pratt MISUNDERSTOOD what has been said? Fourth, I too, was a general's aide for a short period of time and that is not reflected in my record. Is it possible that the same thing happened here? In other words, there is no real evidence that Marcel LIED, just that the Pratt interview is in conflict with Marcel's record. Because of that, we decided that Marcel LIED, when, in fact, it could be that honest mistakes were made by others and NOT by Jesse Marcel. The point here is that the military records are not 100% accurate, Pratt's interview has been misinterpreted by others who want to believe that Marcel lied, and that it might be, since no tape remains of the interview, that Pratt made the mistakes and not Jesse Marcel. You can say anything you want about those who are dead because they have no rights. But this situation isn't as black and white as Mr. Korff (I hope he understands that I am merely being polite here and not implying anything) would have us believe. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: 'Beyond Roswell' - Page 117 From: Andy Roberts <101322.751@CompuServe.COM> Date: 04 May 97 12:57:58 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 19:55:02 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Beyond Roswell' - Page 117 Michael Hesemann wrote: >How did you get the book? It comes out in the >US in three weeks, in the UK in June. If you're still surprised who can get what in this game Michael, you haven't been in it long enough. >...just to prove it, tell me the first word on page 117. In my copy the first line is "base area with cameras and a telscope, as well as bom-" Flowers and an apology Michael please. Red roses will be fine, the apology can be in heiroglyphics. Incidentally for the list's benefit, although I haven't read the book from cover to cover it is execrable, pretentious stuff. From the opening Shakespeare quote of: "Time's glory is to calm contending kings, to unmask falsehood and bring truth to light" to the closing "Ready we may be for the truth - for knowledge of their existence and presence - but we are, in reality, unfit for contact with populations from other wrolds, and will remain so until we learn to live in peace with one another and devlop tolerance, respect and kindness for other forms of life and customs" Portentious stuff for such lightweight drivel. Of course if you like reading about 'Star Elders' and the like you'll find it right up your boulevard. The potted history of the autopsy film, Area 51, cover-up etc can be found better, more honestly written in many other places. Prior to the closing statement we get what amounts to a get out clause (there sure as hell ain't no sanity clause in here): "I am afraid, in any case, that Robert Morning Sky is right in saying, 'Whereas we and other native Americans know about the authenticity of Santilli's film, we believe that in the end it will be proved that the material is a fake. The UFO believers have to be discredited, the contents of the film must be drawn through the mud. The powers that be have to keep their control over the people. I don't know how it will be done, but the film will be, has to be exposed as a fake......" Yeeeeeeeeesssss. So the American Indians know it's authentic but it will be proved a fake. Pardon me grasshopper? You get the picture though I'm sure. Throwing the American Indian perspective into a UFO book is to Americans the equivalent of a Brit throwing a Celtic shaman viewpoint in. It looks good, it fits the zeitgeist, but ultimately it is vacuous nonsense. (Hey, I know, I've done it!). 'Beyond Roswell' will sell truckloads and will make money for the authors. But it won't do one tiny thing for UFO research other than to muddy the waters and to mire researchers in an endless chase for the hoaxers. Happy trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: Michael Hesemann, 100660,3672@Compuserve.Com Date: Mon, 5 May 1997, 1.03 AM CET Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 20:50:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >From: XianneKei@aol.com [Rebecca] >Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 18:52:47 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Korff's New Book on Roswell >Super. I can't wait to see those. I'm sure your ... er... I mean Kal's> >publisher would not be publishing pictures that shouldn't be published. I >wouldn't worry about Mr. Santilli too much if I were you. ROLFLMAO!! Rebecca, that's great!! But... do I understand you right (since KKK-Kal diagnosed me speaking and reading disabilities I'm not so sure yet) ... do you mean Pam is Kal in drag? I tend to follow your working hypothesis, who else would like Kals (unpublished yet) new book?? Thanks for your delightful policy recommendation! That's the way to stop KKK... violation of international copyright... I will inform Ray tomorrow... was Prometheus the guy who was nailed on the Caucasian mountains, after stealing the fire from the Gods? At least KKK loves flames, as we all learned... Greetings, Mike
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 'The Randle Report - UFOs in the '90s' From: Don Ledger <dledger@istar.ca> Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 15:07:34 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 19:57:13 -0400 Subject: 'The Randle Report - UFOs in the '90s' Hello List, There has been a great deal of talk on the list about new books on the market on UFOs. At least three in the last couple of weeks. Well now you can add another to your list. Kevin Randle was kind enough to send Chris Styles and myself an advanced copy of his latest book 'The Randle Report - UFOs in the '90s'. When he mailed to us it was noted that it would be in the bookstores in a week to ten days, however since it took that long to get here it is now indeed on the bookstands. It is published by M.Evans and Company, Inc. New York. The ISBN number is - ISBN: 0-87131-820-2 Chris and I have a particular interest in this book where Kevin chose to profile the Shag Harbour Incident in his first chapter. More later. Regards Don (Doug) Ledger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Open Letter To Thomas Deuley from Ed Komarek From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 14:20:00 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 22:54:17 -0400 Subject: Open Letter To Thomas Deuley from Ed Komarek I was afraid you would say that. I think you need to come more to the foreground. I'll see what I can do in that regard. Ha, ha. I do respect your private correspondence. I don't see where the publication of my letter to you would violate that. You are one of the more influntial players in the UFO community over the years and perhaps the least known. The public needs to know more about you. I understand that you head up the UFO establishment coalition for hearings in Congress is that true? If so should not the general public and the UFO community know more about who you are and what you represent? Greer has certainly taken plenty of heat for his role in the hearing process because he has gone public with as much as he can. We all get a few hostile emails it just goes with the territory. Its not pleasant but just part of the process. You have got to give me a better reason than that for keeping a low profile. The only better reason would be that it would interfer with your efforts on behalf of the UFO community and the public as a whole. If so I think a explanation to the public would be helpful. Most of us just don't have the foggest idea what you have been doing all these years. I haven't seen much about you in the UFO literature except for a paper or two in the Mufon proceedings and a article here and there in the Mufon Journal over the years. Yet I understand you had a big hand in founding FUFOR, and are still on that board. You used to be MUFON's Corporate Secretary and are still on the MUFON board. You seem to be where the money and power is in these organizations. You may not be a intelligence mole, but I just get real curious of those that have a lot of influnce but are careful to stay out of the public eye. I have no way to determine what their agenda is, be it helpful or hurtful to the UFO Community or the public at large. I find it hard to believe that with your NSA etc. background that you do not continue to maintain many contacts in Intelligence Community. The question is how do you use those contacts? It seems to me you have access to most of the material that goes up the chain of command from Mufon and Fufor. It would not be hard to plug a security leak once in a while by simply by making a phone call, or pass along critical UFO information to a intelligence source. How would you address such concerns from the public? I want to be sure to say I am not accusing you of anything just that you have a very influential position in the UFO establishment hierarchy. You keep a low profile. Maybe this is just the way you like to operate. Its just very difficult to get a handle on who you are and what you are about. You seem a nice enough fella and thats the type that worries me too. So was Hynek. I have some very real concerns about the focus of the UFO community into research rather than politics since Keyhoe. Its obvious that scientific solutions to a political problem (coverup) will not work. Did this happen naturally or was the UFO community minipulated? I have had some real concerns about Hynek playing both sides of the fence and I have the same concerns now with you as well. Can you understand that? The best, Ed Komarek (ORTK)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Korff Responds to Don Allen & Rebecca Schatte From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 14:19:45 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 22:32:49 -0400 Subject: Korff Responds to Don Allen & Rebecca Schatte Subj: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell Date: Sun, May 4, 1997 From: Totlresrch@aol.com To: updates@globalserve.net <snip> <excerpt from Don Allen's post of 5/4/97 re: Kal Korff's New Roswell Book <I find it very curious that Korff blows outta here <real quick when the heat starts up and then "Pamela7", <who hasn't ever written here before, posts a positively <glowing report over a book that Korff has supposedly <written...but no one has seemingly heard anything about. <Perhaps "Pamela7" can post some details about the book, <like who published it, for starters? < <Korff wouldn't be sending in ringers to hype his book <would he? Nahh. :-) <snip> <Excerpt from R. Schatte-Keith's posting of 5/24/97 re: Kal <Korff's New Roswell Book <When did you read it? Did you have a review copy or what? It <is not available yet in Houston. I have called several <bookstores (and visited some in person) and all tell me it <can't even be ordered yet because the book is backordered at <the warehouse. Which must be good news for you, Kal, er... I <mean Pamela. Dear Don and Rebecca, This is addressed more towards Don, but might provide info of interest to Rebecca, whose work on Alien Autopsy I admire greatly: While I do not mind speculation, I am NOT Pam Rollins. In fact, I do not know of anyone by this name. There are several things wrong with her posting: 1) There is nowhere in my book that says that Marcel got "reprimanded" for exaggerating what he recovered near Roswell. 2) I am not aware that the two books she claims to have read (mine and Hesemann and Mantle's) are even out yet. As I think I stated in another posting, I called a Barnes-Noble in Bellevue, Washington, where I am going to do a signing in early June, and they told me that not only do they NOT have copies, but that they wouldn't have them for a few more weeks!! This has been an issue for me, because the store is supposed to give me a copy (of the Hesemann and Mantle book) for my upcoming signing and lecture as I want to go through their book and compare it with the refutations made in mine for this upcoming lecture. 3) I Don't know HOW she could have even read MY book since it would, I assume, take a couple of days. For everyone's information, I only got MY copies this PAST WEEK and I had them sent via FEDX to me by my publisher and was literally the FIRST ONE TO GET THEM!! They were sent to me overnight FEDX the day my publisher got them from the print house on their docks. It couldn't have gone any faster than this. I also know that when publishers send their lots of books to the stores, that they send them via ground or trucks, and that takes many days. So frankly, I am skeptical (I hate using that word) about various aspects of this person's EMail. 4) Finally, Don, YOU DISAPPOINT me! I don't need to bring in "ringers" (to use your verbage) I am certainly a fairly well known person in this field and if I wasn't already I have certainly become just that ever since joining this forum -- again, judging by the Emails and their high volume. 5) What HAS taken my time, Don, are replying to well over 100 postings from people such as yourself. THANKS to YOU, I am just about finished with a lengthy response to Billy Meier (Because you posted his attack against me under to excuse of "airing" both sides) and I will finally begin by posting these replies next week. Currently, it's over 20 PAGES in LENGTH and has taken days of my time to get into the kind of shape I am happy with. Also, another project, my NEW WEBSITE goes on line in less than TWO WEEKS and that has kept me VERY busy since I have coded all of it myself and there's LOTS of Meier and Roswell stuff in it, Q&As, FAQs, etc. I even canceled a meeting I was very much looking forward to with another UFO researcher Saturday evening who is female, (she knows who she is and posts Emails to this forum) and had to juggle my schedule for a last minute radio interview in St. Louis that my publisher had booked. I don't need to justify my extremely busy schedule to you or anyone, and you will find, Don, that there are always periods of time where I get VERY busy and get behind on corespondence and returning phone calls. Maybe you can't relate to this because you have idle time on your hands. Who knows. :-) Read into this any "conspiracy" you wish, but you are very wide of the mark here. Kal Korff P.S. When you see how much correspondence I pump out next week, there will be no doubt by anyone as to HOW I have been spending my time...
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: PROJECT-1947 - Kent Jeffrey and Roswell From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 04 May 97 16:11:10 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 23:01:11 -0400 Subject: Re: PROJECT-1947 - Kent Jeffrey and Roswell >From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] >Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 10:36:25 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: PROJECT-1947 - Kent Jeffrey and Roswell Kevin, In my original message, I said: > So I don't want to accuse him, but I just want people to > consider this scenario. I freely admit that I do not know Kent Jeffrey. Some who claim to know him well think he is acting strangely and throwing the baby out with the bathwater. But whether he is acting on his own volition or on someone else's behalf is beside the point. He has a moral (and perhaps legal) duty to proceed with the Roswell Initiative and deliver those damned petitions! Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Complete 'Autopsy Cameraman's' Statement From: XianneKei@aol.com [Rebecca] Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 13:42:53 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 22:24:01 -0400 Subject: Complete 'Autopsy Cameraman's' Statement The credit on this goes to Mark L. Center. I have no further information, but have found Mark to be reliable and competent in the past. ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- RE: Cameraman Hunt Here you go! Updated Version - 04/29/97 The Alien Autopsy Cameraman's On Air Statement transcribed from the UNCUT Direct Sale Video of the Fuji TV Show , Japan / December 19th, 1996 This transcript was taken from the uncut video tape of the original Fuji TV Broadcast. This tape is available to anyone willing to buy for it through a North American base, Japanese video distributor. The questions were asked in Japanese, we later translated these questions using an available Japanese language text print out of all the questions. The stilted nature of the wording is due to the word for word Japanese to English translation. There was no Japanese voice-over on the uncut version, making the cameraman's words much easier to decipher. The interview runs about 12 minutes long, the broadcast interview ran about 6 minutes. Taking into account all available information, we think this is the complete Alien Autopsy Cameraman Interview. Start: Ready? Okay. I have here some notes, and on these notes I have answers to precise questions. My son is here to help me with this interview. You will excuse me, this is the first time I have been in front of a camera and I am a little nervous. And, I will use my glasses, and I have prepared a statement before we go on with the interview. I am the person who shot the film. I will not tell you my name, but I want you to know that I am not happy that I have betrayed my country. Our United States of America is the greatest country in the world, and I am proud to be an American. I do not want that to change. Question #1: What made you to become an army photographer? It wasn't my decision to become a cameraman in the military. They found out that cameras were something I understand and do best. And that's why I was given the job. Question #2: What instructions did you receive from the army concerning UFO in 1947? No comment Question #3: Why did you fly to New Mexico and did you receive any special instructions from the army? Yes, I remember I got a call from McDonald telling me to immediately report to General McMullen. When I got to McMullen, I was told that a plane had come down just outside Soccoro, New Mexico. A flight was being laid on to go down there and I was to be on it. I was told to film the crash site and stay with the team, nothing else. Question #4: Please tell us anything that you saw when you arrived the crash site in New Mexico. Where and how did you get there? Now let's see...I flew out of Andrews with the team, mainly medical I think. We stopped at Wright Field to pick up other officers and men, changing planes and flew down to Roswell air base. Ah...we had a lot of equipment with us. After the flight we traveled by road and dirt track to the site. Question #5 What instructions did you receive when you arrived at the site and what was your impression? There were injured creatures lying around, obviously in pain, but the men at the site were too scared to get close. Ooh there was a great deal of confusion until we arrived. My authority allowed me to operate as an independent as long as I didn't interfere with the clean up. When I arrived, I set up my tent and equipment and once I had light, I started shooting. How did I feel about it? I was concerned about potential contamination, but I had no choice. Question #6: Who else did you see at the location? Photographer? Scientist? Solider? Even if I could remember, I wouldn't give you names! Yes, there were scientists, military brass, and medical experts, even Truman's team got down there, it was the full works. Question #7: How was the situation of the site? We were told nothing and ordered not to discuss what we had seen. We all knew it was not a spy plane or any other type of plane we had seen before. No one knew how it crashed or where it came from. Question #8: What did you take at the site? I filmed the crash site also the poor freaks and we were told to keep back. I filmed the vehicle itself and the area around it. I felt nervous of something I could not understand or explain. Question #9: How did you communicate with the spacemen? The freaks kept crying out and the men were scared, but they were trained and they were ordered to go in and treated it like a war situation. Their first job was to recover the objects the freaks were holding just in case they were weapons of some kind. I filmed the assault on the freaks to get these objects. It turned out they were not weapons, but control units of some kind. The freaks didn't want to let them go, but they didn't stand a chance, we got'em. Once the units were secured, the freaks were removed. Question #10: How did you keep the film after shooting and who developed it? I kept all the film with me, went back to the base and I processed it. Question #11: What happened to the remain of the UFO after delivery? Where did it go? Give me the question again. Now the freaks were taken by the medical team to a lab that had been set up at Fort Worth, the debris and craft were taken to Wright Field Question #12 When was spaceman cut up after crash? The first autopsy took place about three weeks later. I filmed some at a small lab in Fort Worth. Question #13 Under what instructions did you take pictures of the dissection? I was never given orders on how to shot film, my brief was the same, film everything, but stay out of the way which is what I did. Question #14: Who else was there for the dissection of spacemen? What do you think I am? I can't give names. Question #15: What were difficult points in shooting of dissection? The protective suits made my job very difficult. Also the air feeds into the feet kept tripping me The surgeons were always getting in the way, but I expected that. Question #16: How did you develop the film? (garbled)...away I developed the film myself back at the base. Question #17: What are problems after developing the film? Most of the processing took place around August, by the time the military as we knew it, ceased to be, the Air Force and the Army were about to split and my unit was about to be disbanded for a time anyway (laughs out loud). In fact, you could say I was in a strange position for a time of not belonging to either one service. Then eventually they found a home for us. Question #18: Why could you take back the film proving the existence of spacemen home with you? I took all the film because I had no one to report to. My orders were not to discuss the situation with anyone unless they brought up the subject first. The first batch had been delivered, then the department folded and I had no one to deliver to. I tried to contact McMullen, but I couldn't get through. In the end I couldn't leave it laying around, so I took it home which is where it stayed. Question #19: Why did you keep the film after 50 years? I didn't present film to an eager buyer, it didn't happen that way. One thing lead to another and I felt that there was no reason to keep hold of it any longer. Also I needed money at the time. Question #20: How did you meet Ray Santilli? He was in Cleveland looking for music film. I had some footage I shot in �55 when I was freelancing and he was interested in buying it for a documentary. In fact I wouldn't have met him if it hadn't been for my son who discovered that a British company were in town looking for old film. Question #21: Is there anyone that has seen the film in the past 50 years? No! Question #22: How did you keep the film and protect it for 50 years? Now the film was kept safely hidden for about 40 years. I never got to handing back and just didn't want it in the house. Keeping it secret was never a problem, as it was among other film cans, most of the time I didn't give it a thought. Question #23: Was there any reaction from the US government to release of such secret film of dissection, which influences the history of human being? I don't know. Thank heavens I haven't heard from them. Question #24: (first sentence, the Japanese letters are illegible) Some people think that you are used for global physiological test to see how much the world can be controlled through the existence of spaceman. What do you think? A test lasting 50 years! People can think what they like, all you have to do is look at the film. I can't tell you what these freaks are or where they came from, but it happened. Closing Statement: Frankly, I wish I had never sold the film. He kept after me until I sold'em him the film. I sold'em the film because I needed money. I'm not proud of it. Santilli took about 25 reels. That's it. I'm going now. No more questions. Turn it off. No more questions. END of segment. I've played this thing over and over again, this is about as complete as your going to find. If you need any further information you can contact me at: internet: @enzoabix.netcom.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Alfred's Odd Ode # 132 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 16:55:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 23:03:25 -0400 Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode # 132 Apology to MW #132 (For May 4, 1997) Who=92s paying the freight over at NASA? Who fronts travail with the sweat from their brow? Who puts the payloads so deftly in orbit? I tell you it=92s us, and I=92m telling you how! Who makes the backbone of the program? Who suffers loss so they can fly? Who=92s paying off a loan to college? I tell you it=92s us; it=92s our right to pry. I want a camera on all the time, in the sky above the Earth. I don=92t want that signal scrambled, I want it on for lunch. I want to tune in and be in space, and be in REAL TIME. I want clear signals I=92ve paid for with the sweat from chubby bunch! Don=92t tell me where you=92ll look, and won=92t! You work for me, and I call your shots! Enough of me gets together and gives you *attention.* And this job you=92d like to keep will tie you up in knots! If we see something twitchy, and you don=92t know what it is, Well, just say so; it happens all the time. But if you hide the momentous, and get all pretentious We=92ll have your hide, and soul, and heart combined. What do you gain from freezing out Hoagland? And life on the Mars rocks is a thirty year postulate! Plagiarism never becomes what it=92s meant to. Europa is Hoagland=92s; make haste to congratulate. Just who are you thinking the hell that you are? Just what=92s your end in the cover up? I guess that the power means more than your salary Enough of me=92s attention can make both those stop. Just what are the names, and who is responsible? As a teacher I=92m accountable six ways to Sunday. What=92s Gravy for goose, is gravy for gander, And it=92s gonna come out pretty soon anyway! It=92s that damn need to know, and the shadows it makes! In truth, it helped destroy the Soviet Union! We can=92t take a lesson from their sad demise? Make analogy? Craft Metaphor? Draw conclusion? And you kids in college adoring Ollie North! He trashed the constitution while he hammered on some bible! He=92s drugs and guns, and torture; a spider in his web! He=92ll sell you out like he did his country -- then tell you that you=92re libel. But I digress, make detour, branch away from the subject. I demure, make amends, pay my way past your object. I=92ll pretend you have interest in your personal efficacy And your view is all alien =96 happiness, ecstasy. Why stand for an uppity NASA, pray tell? We pay for every stinking bit of data! Real time images are NOTHING TO ASK! Cough it up boys, or explain what=92s the matter! Lehmberg@snowhill.com =20 That would be one lovely sight. Could you see that on a digital big screen TV. . .a wide angle shot of the universe with the curve of the earth in a bottom corner like the cheek of a beautiful woman. We used to have that (well, on the way to that), you know, real time television pictures from space =96 NASA select TV, and god it was boring as hell. The picture was un-detailed, out of focus, and the contrast glared =96 then you saw something that made you sit bolt upright in your chair! "What the hell was that" ?!? No explanation, just scrambled signals ever after. . . yeah buddy! Now, I=92m not supposed to be concerned about that. . .I=92m not supposed to find that just a bit . . . odd?=20 Imrie, and Rogers, and Twitch, oh my! Old lions, and mangy tigers, and tired bears. Aw rat=92s! Writing to you, I=92ve missed "Third Rock from the Sun." Now that=92s sacrifice, fellow motes <g>! --=20 "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake. His killers were in a long line of those who would inhibit access to real time information! @@@@ Government or Social Harassment REPORT - "ZERO" HARASSMENT
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 UFO FAQ @ http://www.ufoic.com/faq From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 01:45:05 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 23:22:07 -0400 Subject: UFO FAQ @ http://www.ufoic.com/faq Hi list, My UFO FAQ has been enhanced: . What is the best evidence for abductions . Are UFOs registered on radar . What happens during an abduction . The evidence for the Roswell crash And more. URL: http://www.ufoic.com/faq __________________________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Leiden, The Netherlands \___________________________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Kal Korff Gets Call From Autopsy "Cameraman"!! From: Michael Hesemann, 100660,3672@Compuserve.com Date: Mon, 5 May 1997, 1.18 AM CET Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 23:13:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff Gets Call From Autopsy "Cameraman"!! >From: TotlResrch@aol.com >Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 21:02:31 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Kal Korff Gets Call From Autopsy "Cameraman"!! >A few minutes ago, I received a telephone call from a person, who was >obviously a male, who claims to be the "cameraman" from the alien autopsy >film!! Fine for you. The only problem is... I'm afraid I don't have any reason to believe you. You lied too much in the past. Oh, sorry, maybe I couldn't understand you, maybe my English is as worse as your German or as you say my German is (at least here we have another, easy-to-prove- wrong example of a typical KKK character assassination and lie! KKK claimed, michael Hesemann doesn't speak proper German. German teachers of the world, unite and check it out! I'm ready for the exam!)... Anyhow, I herewith declare your latest claim -excuse my British English- "just another bloody lie" unless you deliver any proof. What about that: may you please ask the cameraman the date when he called me the last time? (He would remember, no question, since it was close to his birthday) Proof it or shut up! >To Pamela 7, I did not know that Hesemann and Mantle's book was even out yet, >I just checked with a Barnes-Noble book store in a nearby town where I am >scheduled to do a signing in early June on my book and they did not know when >they are expecting their copies. I want very much to get a copy of Hesemann >and Mantle's book, because I intend to use it in my upcoming lectures and >appearances as a shining example of what's WRONG in this field. I will be >happy to buy your copy in the interests of saving time and if you really did >not like it as you seem to imply. Whoow, now you are talking to yourself on the net! But - the book is not out yet. I am happy you gonna show it on your shows, since all those who dislike your book (just everyone, I'm sure) will learn where they get the real information. I admire your remote viewing skills, or how else do you know that the book "is a shining example of what's wrong in this field". BTW, please don't forget to call Ray to clear the rights for the picture, or we have to show your book as a shining example of "what is wrong in this field", meaning the sleazy combination of lies, copyright piracy and character assassination, or, with one word, KKK methods. Sincerely, Michael Hesemann, Dusseldorf/Germany * * They still allow me to live here even after you revealed that I'm not even able to speak the language... But maybe even in Germany nobody takes you serious anyways. P.S. What about a German contest between you and me? The Jury: Two German teachers, one from the US and one from Germany. The test: Each of us has to translate English sentances into German. The worse pays the better one a beer... ...and a two weeks vacation on Hawaii. Maybe that's on a higher level than the usual mud-wrestling you seem to prefer.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: NICAP and/or APRO files on Web? From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 14:31:10 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 22:58:17 -0400 Subject: Re: NICAP and/or APRO files on Web? >From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] >Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 22:47:54 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: NICAP and/or APRO files on Web? >In a message dated Sat, 3 May 1997 22:47:54 -0400 (EDT) you <write: >The NICAP files have been sent on to CUFOS, but the APRO >files, for the most part, remain in the hands of the Lorenzen >family. > KRandle Dear Kevin, Unless things have suddenly changed, the APRO files Do NOT remain in the hands of the Lorenzen family. I spoke with the only surviving member of that family, Larry Lorenzen, and if their family had the files then they would be available to all UFO researchers. The last info I had on this matter indicates that thanks to Mr. Bob Dean's carelessness, custody of the files was turned over to the Choates (I may have their last name spelled wrong) and they have essentially absconded with them. Maybe there's been a new development here, I don't know. I saw Coral Lorenzen shortly before she sadly passed away (we used to be close, as were Jim and I) and she let me go through their files to take whatever I wanted. The files were in very bad shape. This is how I got a copy of Wendelle Stevens' ORIGINAL MEIER MANUSCRIPT which contained the dinosaur photos, Meier's photos of Venus, and other hoaxed imagery that Stevens would conveniently and deliberately later omit for his officially published books on Meier. Photo excerpts from Stevens' incriminating manuscript can be found in my expose book on Billy Meier. What is your "source" for this info, Kevin, and how recent is your source?? Thanks, Kal (Still getting caught up in correspondence but have replied to some postings for today at random) Korff.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 13:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 23:00:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? > From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com > Date: Fri, 02 May 97 15:37:54 cst > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? > > >Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:52:35 -0700 (PDT) > >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Are contactees ever lied to? > > > > If you believe our putative Visitors are constrained by a "Prime > Directive," how do you reconcile this with their apparent willingness to > pose their flying saucers for one particular human in one particular > geographic location? The same catch-22 aspect applies there, too. Like with Ed Walters, his aliens could supply him with photo opportunities on quite a few occasions, and the extra evidence that these photos provided to support his encounters can be countered by skeptics who would claim that no one person should, by chance, have more than one or at most two of these photo ops. So such skeptics can then ignore the photo facts that point to reality of the case and just emphasize this other aspect. Their belief system is therefore saved, and the Prime Directive is upheld. They can now even appear to many over Gulf Breeze, every so often, and the (negative) skeptics can just shrug it off with "Oh, Gulf Breeze is the town where the whole population has gone batty." This "Prime Directive" seems to apply to society as a whole, but not to the selected individuals (UFO witnesses and abductees..) upon whom the task has been imposed to try to persuade their fellow man that the alien presence is real. > I agree that there is probably disinformation being disseminated, but I > personally believe it's being disseminated by Meier. That's the way the Prime Directive is supposed to work. You're not supposed to be forced to believe anything you don't want to, unless you're one of the small fraction who's had his own UFO experiences of a similar nature and wished that it had only been a dream. > If someone makes unverifiable claims that are later proved to be false > when the means for verification are developed, is it really more likely > that aliens misinformed the claimant, or that the claimant merely lied to > begin with? The latter is least likely if the claimed falsification doesn't hold up, or is based merely upon what an abductee/contactee is told or shown, and especially if many of the witness's experiences are indeed supported by witnesses and his photos/films are indeed fully consistent with being genuine and non-hoaxed. > In regards to the Meier case, Jim Deardorff wrote: > >In the case of Meier, he didn't meet "Venusians" and didn't see any > >signs of life on Venus on his five-day space trip to various spots. He > >didn't see the surface of Venus at all until they emerged below cloud > >base, when he was told they were down to 40 km above the surface. He > >describes it (this was following his 15 July, 1975, contact) as wild > >looking and covered with craters, with some not-too-high mountains on > >one side. > Radar mapping has revealed that Venus is not "covered with > craters." Again, is it more likely that Meier was deceived by > aliens, or that he made the whole thing up and his lies were > later exposed by subsequent technology that wasn't available when > he originally made his claim? Well, if you insist that the aliens involved are not very intelligent, and would not have a strategy of dealing with us, then you'd likely go for the latter. Let me ask you something, Vince: Do you think that it is just a random fluke of chance that in 50 years of sightings & encounters, extending over time periods of from seconds to hours and to witnesses numbering from one to scores or more, probably over 200,000 events in all, that the aliens never *once* stuck around long enough for the news media to move in and report it over all the networks and TV, and for scientists and politicians to converge on it and confirm it & see it for themselves? I think you have to concede that "they" are helping maintain their own coverup, while at the same time continuing to expose themselves to selected individuals, witnesses and small groups worldwide and in various flaps. This indicates a strategy is being employed; is 50 years not enough for us to see what the essential part of this strategy is? It's true that Venus exhibits a lot of relatively new surface relatively free of craters, which I guess continues to perplex planetary astronomers. Yet, in the first 5% of its surface mapped by the Magellan spacecraft's radar, 75 craters were counted. Meier could have been shown part of such a section of Venus's surface. Or in reporting on it he may have exaggerated the numbers of craters he saw, or he could have been shown a section of the Moon's surface through the viewing screen, for all one knows. So why base an evaluation of a contactee's or experiencer's case upon what he was shown or told by aliens whom we know have a particular strategy of dealing with us that includes maintaining a coverup? Such an attitude on the part of a ufologist doesn't make sense to me. > >But a key question is: would the aliens want their contactee to be taken > >seriously by ufologists first, then by scientists, then by the news > >media and the general public, after having gone to such pains over 50 > >years not to let the coverup come unraveled prematurely with respect to > >UFO sightings in general or abductions either? > You seem > to want it both ways, Jim: a) The aliens are constrained > by a "Prime Directive" forbiding their exposure to, and contact > with, humans; and b) The aliens are ambiguously revealing their > presence to, and making contact with, a single man out of 6 > billion. Clearly, both arguments can't be correct. So you're saying that aliens haven't presented themselves to individuals and even multiple witnesses over the past 50 years, or they haven't employed an intelligent strategy, including deception at times, to help maintain the coverup? Of course they've done both, I say. They could blow the coverup any day they wished, and allow the ensuing panic and chaos to run rampant, if they wished. It seems their Prime Directive is not quite what Star Trek might display. Exposure to selected individuals seems to be OK, for purposes of implementing a well thought out strategy, if they have calculated that such exposures won't turn into a rapidly snowballing undoing of the coverup, which would suddenly affect human societies as a whole in a catastrophic manner. So, the question arises, do you have a problem in allowing that the aliens could be more intelligent than we are -- or certainly more experienced in dealing with an emerging civilization than we are experienced in facing up to more advanced civilizations? > If aliens did want to make contact with the human race, all they'd have > to do is get on the radio. You seem to be able to get the point. They are not taking any such actions that would blow the coverup. Instead, they are maintaining a coverup to their own operations, assisted greatly by governments and the curtain of ridicule (which grew partly naturally and partly through disinformation fed to the early contactees, which science could understand was nonsense but the contactees usually couldn't). At the same time, they're continuing their operations, which I see as consisting largely of an educational program implemented through CE1s, CE2s,... , directed at those who can accept it as real while providing elements of deniability to those who can't. But I don't quite agree with your radio example. If this happened, afterwards skeptics would quickly claim it was a hoax, and that authorities were diligently engaged in tracking down the human perpetrators, and would see to it that it didn't happen again. The aliens would need to do better than that, if they thought the day had arrived when humanity was as prepared as they would ever be to accept their reality. Jim Deardorff Search for other documents from or mentioning: deardorj |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Kal Korff Gets Call From Autopsy "Cameraman"!! From: Don Allen <dona@totcon.com> Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 20:47:16 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 23:25:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff Gets Call From Autopsy "Cameraman"!! >From: TotlResrch@aol.com >Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 21:02:31 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Kal Korff Gets Call From Autopsy "Cameraman"!! <SNIP> >In closing, I promise FULL responses to ALL of your EMails, including replies >to: Billy Meier himself, Michael Hesemann, James Deardorff, Bob Shell, Jeroen >Jansen, Don Allen, etc. Go ahead on Kal! I'm your huckleberry. BTW, Meier hasn't responded here, I've merely forwarded his articles but I'll be more than happy to forward your responses to his articles back to his Web site. Again, I will re-iterate: I'm NOT a Billy Meier fan but I DO want to get all the facts out onto the table where it can be seen by everyone. There's always two sides to every story. >To Pamela 7, I did not know that Hesemann and Mantle's book was even out yet, >I just checked with a Barnes-Noble book store in a nearby town where I am >scheduled to do a signing in early June on my book and they did not know when >they are expecting their copies. I want very much to get a copy of Hesemann >and Mantle's book, because I intend to use it in my upcoming lectures and >appearances as a shining example of what's WRONG in this field. I will be >happy to buy your copy in the interests of saving time and if you really did >not like it as you seem to imply. Ha! This is nothing more than a "shining example" of "Pamela 7" getting caught in a bald faced LIE about your book. Just how could _your_ book be available when it's not even out yet and just exactly how could she have READ Hesemann's book when that isn't out yet either? >I just hope the UFO field can get a reality check here, and move forward in >doing more productive things and engaging in studying more deserving cases. I'm all for that but since many issues have already been raised about dubious ca ses and including the equally dubious "refutations" of these cases, let's get down to brass tacks, shall we? Don
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 18 From: Masinaigan@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 13:16:45 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 22:28:32 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 18 --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 18 Date: 97-05-04 12:27:32 EDT From: Masinaigan To: Alcyone687 CC: Masinaigan UFO ROUNDUP Volume 2, Number 18 May 4, 1997 Editor: Joseph Trainor SPANIARDS ENCOUNTER A GROUP OF TALL ALIENS Reports of UFOs and ground encounters between shepherds and very tall aliens are current in Galicia, a province in the northwestern corner of Spain. The flap began February 20, 1997 when Heliodoro Nunez was tending sheep at Paradeseca, a village near Orense. The encounter took place in a pasture three kilometers from the Chandrexa road, along the Rio Devesas. "It was more or less four in the afternoon when I was with the livestock," Nunez said. "Suddenly, the dogs began to bark, glaring at a spot behind me. When I turned, I saw these strange beings." Nunez described the "several" entities as being 3 meters (10 feet) tall and wearing "strange hats of a conical form. The whole group changed color at the same time, alternately shifting from red to blue to yellow to green. That was not of this world, and the truth is, upon seeing this apparition, I began to pray." A neighbor, Juan Gonzalez Gonzalez, confirmed Nunez's story, adding that he too "saw something strange" in the pasture "the same day and at the same hour." Gonzalez said he "saw a red light of very intense tones that hovered above the treetops." But because of the distance that separated him from the spot, he did not see the two "giants." The case was investigated by Grupo Fenix, a UFO study group based in the port city of La Coruna. Sra. Nunez, the shepherd's wife, told the group that her husband "arrived at home (that day) very much afraid. He was praying all the time, and, the two following nights, he went without sleep and could eat nothing. I don't know what he saw, but he showed much fear." (See the Spanish newspaper La Region for February 23, 1997) Galicia had its second UFO incident exactly one month later. On March 20, 1997, at 4:13 p.m., a youth group gathered on Mount Espenuca, near La Coruna, to view the Hale-Bopp comet. A UFO flew into their field of view and was videotaped by two of the students. They described the UFO as having "the form of a lozenge and was rimmed by five lights." (Muchas gracias a Javier Garcia para esa historia.) MORE UFO SIGHTINGS IN SOUTHERN ALABAMA On April 5, 1997, at around 2 a.m., James Hogan was walking his dog near the Orange Street pier in Fairhope, Alabama (population 7,286) when he saw a UFO. Hogan said the object "resembled a truck tire on its side and was approximately 600 feet (180 meters) in diameter. It had 10 square windows along its side, and it was completely silent." Five days later, on April 10, 1997, at 1 a.m., a man in nearby Marlow, Alabama (population 100) shot a videotape of "a strange object" that was hovering at treetop level "over Baldwin County Road 32." The videotape is being studied by the husband- and-wife investigative team of Clompton and Susan Jones from the Gulf Breeze, Florida chapter of MUFON. The UFO hotspots of Pensacola and Gulf Breeze are 45 miles (72 kilometers) east of Baldwin County, Alabama. According to Clompton Jones, there have been five UFO sightings in Baldwin County since the discovery of a mutilated cow there back on January 20. Thirty-six hours before the discovery of the mutilated cow, a man driving on a dirt road near the spot "looked to his left and saw the craft," Jones told the Fairhope Courier. "It wasn't cloudy. It was a good clear sighting." The witnessed described the object as "250 feet (82 meters) across with a bank of white lights across the bottom." According to the Courier, "another sighting occurred over the intersection of County Road 87 and U.S. Route 90 in Eleanor, Alabama (population 125). A couple returning to Pensacola (Florida) saw a silent vehicle at the side of the road." The UFO "seemed to approach them" and then blacked out. (See the Fairhope, Ala. Courier for April 23, 1997, "Marlow Videotape Sparks Interest From UFO Groups." Many thanks to Steve Wilson, Jr. for this story. For more on weird doings in Alabama this week, see the next item.) BLACK HELICOPTERS CAUSE STIR IN NORTHERN ALABAMA On Thursday, May 1, 1997, at 1 a.m., ufologist Michael Malone witnessed an unusual incident near Huntsville, Alabama. Huntsville (population 142,513) is located just below the Tennessee state line approximately 188 miles (301 kilometers) north of Montgomery. "I was asleep on my couch," Mike reported. "I had the patio door open so I could get some fresh air... Anyway, it was about 1 o'clock when a loud airplane noise woke me up. Obviously it was a low-flying airplane. I glanced out on the patio in time to see a single light fly over. Not thinking much over it, just a late night MAC or C-140 flight into Redstone, I ignored it." The Malones' apartment building is located near the Redstone Arsenal, a U.S. Army base. "When it happened again within a few minutes, I went out on the patio to see if I could ID the plane. It wasn't a plane but four dark helicopters." "Three of the four were flying lights out," he added, "The only reason I could see those three was their shape was clearly illuminated under the clouds which were lit up by the lights of Huntsville." At first Mike thought one of the helicopters was an RAH-66 Comanche, of which only a couple of prototypes have been built. But, on Friday, May 3, he told the ROUNDUP that he "might have seen two AH-64s" instead of one AH-64 Apache and an RAH-66 Comanche. "A minute or two after this pass, I heard approaching helicopters again," he reported. "I bolted out the door, down to the parking lot, and saw another group of four, again only one was properly illuminated." The other two choppers included a CH-53 Chinook and "a pretty typical Bell Longranger or whatever the military calls them. (OH-58 Kiowa--J.T.), but this bird had a spotlight shining in front." "Within minutes of that flyover, another group of helicopters flew over. This time it was three and much less noisy. While it could have been four, I saw only three and what seemed to be missing was the twin-rotor bird (CH-53) which would explain the reduction in noise. Also missing was the searchlight on the lead dark bird, but again the group was followed by a properly-illuminated attack bird. Additionally, the two dark birds had their forward port/starboard (left/right) lights on, but no their rear rotating white lights. Mike Malone wasn't the only resident to hear the helicopters. According to a local newspaper report, "The helicopters that folks here have been hearing aren't those choppers that right-wing fanatics say will be part of a U.N. invasion. The Redstone Arsenal airfield has served as a staging base for a two-day exercise by the 101st (Aviation) Battalion from Fort Campbell, Kentucky...About 36 helicopters and 150 soldiers participated in a practice attack on Fort McClelland near Anniston (population 29,523)." (See the Huntsville, Ala. Times for May 1, 1997, page B2.) Yet, when Mike phoned the Redstone Arsenal airfield on Friday, asking about the flights, the officer declined to discuss the nightttime maneuvers. (Email Interview) (Editor's Note: Mike is the third ufologist to report a black helicopter encounter this month, after Tom King of Phoenix, Arizona and Sharolyn Stenger of Arlington, Texas.) DAYLIGHT DISC SEEN OVER PARADISE VALLEY, ARIZONA On Sunday, April 27, 1997, at 2:30 p.m., William Hamilton, director of Skywatch International in Arizona, was on the patio at his home in Paradise Valley, a suburb northeast of Phoenix, Arizona "when I saw a bright flash in the northeast sky." "I took my binoculars to get a closer look," Bill reported. "A white metallic object was hovering at a fairly high altitude and had apparently expelled two long metallic objects that were falling and tumbling. I set my Samsung camera on max zoom and took three snapshots of the objects. The stationary object seemed almost self-luminous." "When a plane approached, the unknown object 'winked' out, then back on again," he added. "It appeared to be elliptical in shape. I ran into the house and retrieved by Sony camcorder and proceeded to obtain about a minute and a half (90 seconds) of video, and the hovering object, which was now moving slowly north, then stopped again. I originally focused on the object with a palm tree in the picture for reference, then moved to another position. By then the object had vanished from sight." (Many thanks to Bill Hamilton for this report.) SAUCERS ACTIVE AGAIN IN NORTHERN ONTARIO During the early morning hours of Thursday, April 3, 1997, an Anishinabe man living at the Wikwemikong Indian Reserve on Manitoulin Island, located in Lake Huron's Georgian Bay, spotted a UFO. The eyewitness "happened to look out of his living room window and noticed a yellow, saucer- shaped object a few degrees above the horizon. In the foreground stood a street light. The time was approximately 4 a.m., and the sky was overcast. He estimated the object to be about half a cigarette held at arm's length. He also said at one point, the light blinked out for half a second or so, then reappeared. Soon after, the object disappeared from view." The man "told his girlfriend about the sighting the next day. She said it must have been the northern lights (Aurora borealis--J.T.) He responded by saying that the UFO was in the southern part of the sky (over Lake Huron) and the northern lights usually occur in the northern sky." MUFON Ontario's Sudbury Section is also working on a case in Whitefish, Ont., 12 miles (19 kilometers) southwest of the nickel-mining city of Sudbury. On Saturday, February 1, 1997, at 12:40 a.m., a man watching a sports program on TV "noticed a yellow light coming through the kitchen window." When he looked outside, he saw "two quarter-moon-shaped objects hovering about 100 feet (30 meters) in the air over the neighbor's property...The objects were slightly blocked from view by tall trees in the foreground. As he watched the UFOs, the thought of reaching for his rifle crossed his mind, but then he decided to go into the living room instead, where the large bay window offered a better view...But by the time he got there, the two objects were gone." A week later, on February 8, 1997, the man's son and daughter-in-law "who reside in Cochrane, Alberta (population 1,450) observed a similar sighting of two quarter-moon-shaped UFOs." No other details of the Alberta sighting are yet available. Investigating these cases are Sudbury Section director Michel M. Deschamps and Todd Fraser. (Many thanks to Gordon Courville for this story.) NEW UFO SIGHTING IN THE NETHERLANDS A gathering of 30 UFOs, similar to last week's incident in New Brighton, Minnesota, took place at the same time in Heerhugowaard (population 45,000), a city in the Netherlands 50 kilometers (30 miles) north of Amsterdam. One night last week, R. Groeneveld, 62, who lives on the Versproncklaan in Heerhugowaard, spotted several bright UFOs doing aerobatic maneuvers over the neighborhood. "He counted, he says, at least 30 flying saucers above his house. Also his daughter, her friend, a girl friend, and the neighbor have seen the oval-shaped objects with flashing lights in the air. 'I think we're being observed,' Groeneveld said." (See the newspaper Noordhollands Weekblad for May 1, 1997. Many thanks to Jeroen Wierda of Picard UFO Research International for sending us this story.) UFOs RETURN TO NEW BRIGHTON, MINNESOTA On Monday, April 28, 1997, ufologist Alana C. Ray visited the site of a UFO sighting four days earlier, Thursday, April 24, in New Brighton, Minnesota. A woman named Kay and her son, Tony, witnessed 30 UFOs flying over their home near Long Lake Road. Ms. Ray, a member of CSETI, "arrived sometime after 3 p.m. and...met her (Kay's) son and daughter for the first time. I continued to stay until quite late." "I saw that Kay had just let her two small dogs out," Ms. Ray reported, "and I proceeded to move out onto the lawn. We both looked up into the sky together. Tony joined us, and we all stood looking and feeling an energy. Well, we started to see these lights coming from the southwest. (Silver Lake in New Brighton and Columbia Park in Minneapolis--J.T.) The craft were quite high up in altitude, and yet low enough that you could see the shape and other features." "As they came in closer, we saw that they were triangular in shape. We saw craft coming from the south and the west heading towards the east and also going towards the north...Later this changed and the triangular and circular craft were going from the north to the southwest." Ms. Ray reported that she made three phone calls during the two-hour sighting, one to fellow CSETI member Robert Schultz of New Brighton, Minn., another to Craig R. Lang of Minnesota MUFON and a third to the National UFO Reporting Center in Seattle. "Over the two hours, we sighted approximately 13 to 15 triangular craft and three circular ones," Ms. Ray reported. "One in particular was at a lower altitude and had a huge light, emitting out the front at the vehicle in front of it. Kay had told me that this was similar to the one that shot light through their window the other night (April 24). There were incredibly bright white lights blinking and amber colored lights. Then we heard a combination of what at first appeared to sound like an aircraft, but with a high whirling sound also. I live by an airport and see aircraft day and night all the time, and these did not look or sound anything to what I am accustomed to seeing." "The circular craft were moving at greater speeds and had more of a variety of colors blinking in circular motion. All of these craft moved irregularly, sliding smoothly most times and then jerking back and forth, and side to side... It was as though they did not go any faster (so) as not to call attention to themselves." (Many thanks to Errol Bruce Knapp for this story.) ANOTHER UFO OVER RURAL SAO PAULO STATE On Thursday, May 1, at 6:50 p.m., "uma luz branca muito forte" (a very strong white light) appeared over the town of Morumbi, in Sao Paulo state, Brazil. The OVNI (Portuguese acronym for UFO) "moved from side to side for about two minutes." The mysterious object was then joined by three dimmer yellow lights, all of them described as "circular," which "accelerated very quickly, flying past the first light." From time to time, all four lights "would flash brightly, then disappear and reappear." The display continued for approximately 10 minutes, and then all four flew westward, seemingly heading for the state of Mato Grosso do Sul. (Muito obrigado a OVNI-Brasil para eso caso.) UFO CAUSES BLACKOUT IN PUNTA ARENAS, CHILE On Tuesday, April 23, 1997, during the evening, a woman working as a housekeeper for an elderly lady in Punta Arenas, Chile, reported a strange UFO encounter. Punta Arenas is the southernmost city in Chile, located on the Strait of Magellan. The woman told Agrupacion de Investigaciones Ovniologicas (AION), Chile's well-known UFO group, that she was cleaning her employer's two-story house on the outskirts of Punta Arenas when, suddenly, "all the lights went on and off for a few seconds, and then went out. Then the TV went on and off by itself." Immediately she rushed upstairs to see if the elderly lady was all right. The lady reportedly told her, "Don't worry. It's only the OVNIs again." The woman went to the window, looked up and let out a yell. "There was an OVNI (Spanish acronym for UFO) hovering over the house, big and orange. The OVNI traveled across the yard very slowly. As it passed over the streetlight out front, the light went out." The woman then watched in amazement as the UFO flew over each streetlight along the road. One by one, the streetlights winked out. She added, "It also turned off the lights of four houses nearby as it glided over them." On Wednesday, April 30, 1997, a daylight disc was seen "at very high altitude" over Santiago de Chile, the capital, and in the foothills of the Andes just east of the metropolitan area. More UFOs were sighted in Temuco, a large city 756 kilometers (410 miles) south of Santiago de Chile, and in the nearby towns of Cunco and Villarica, in the foothills of the Andes. (Muchas gracias a Luis Sanchez Perry para esas historias.) FOUR SHEEP MUTILATED ON ISRAELI COAST "On the morning of May 1, Amos and Miriam Glam of Sde Uziah, a farming community near Ashdod found a scene of carnage in their sheep pen," Israeli journalist Barry Chamish reported. Ashdod is a port city on the Mediterranean Sea, 56 kilometers (35 miles) west of Jerusalem. "Four sheep had been sliced in their cheeks" and a hole two inches long "had been drilled from one cheekbone to the other. Though killed by the operation, the sheep did not bleed." "The same cheekbone operation was performed on four sheep belonging to the Gueta family of Moshay Dorat near Kadima in January 1995. In nearby Kadima, a UFO was sighted a few days before the Gueta sheep mutilations." On April 29, "two nights before the Glam incident, a UFO hovered above the family home and beamed a projected light on Mrs. Glam for some 10 seconds. Neither she nor her husband could see the craft which beamed the light." During the night of April 30, the Glams thought they heard sounds "like mice scurrying" from their farmyard. Barry Chamish points out that in 1996, only 300 yards (270 meters) away in Moshav Givati, a horse was mutilated one night. "The animal's owner, Chaim Matal, said he saw 'four small figures, like Orientals' in the yard the evening of the incident." The Glam case was investigated by Israeli ufologist Doron Retem and a local veterinarian, Dr. Arad Nir, whose "initial conclusion was that the sheep died of 'severe trauma' and that the marks were too deliberate and too precise to have been made by wild animals." (Many thanks to Barry Chamish for this story.) WEIRD PIGLET MUTILATION REPORTED IN JAPAN On Saturday evening, April 26, 1997, television station RKK-TV in Fukuoka, Kyushu Island, Japan reported a weird animal mutilation on a farm just west of Miyazaki. Miyazaki is a city on the eastern shore of Kyushu Island, approximately 755 kilometers (453 miles) south of Tokyo. The news video showed a stunned farmer beside his Isuzu truck talking to the correspondent. The farmer said he had gone to the pen to load a few pigs on the truck when he found 20 piglets mutilated. The piglets "had deep wounds on the back of the leg, and some had deep wounds on the stomach. The cause was unknown. At least 20 were found mutilated. Some were still alive and in much pain. A few were dead." (Domo arigato to Hanako Danson for this news story.) TWO SETS OF CROP CIRCLES REPORTED IN BRITAIN Britain has reported its first two crop circles of 1997. Both were found in fields of oilseed rape (canola), the first crop to bloom in the UK. On April 20, the first crop circle was found at Barbury Castle, Wiltshire. It was described as "a ringed circle with six half-crescents" in a counter- clockwise direction. "The outer diameter is about 160 feet (48 meters). Central circle 18 to 20 feet (5.5 to 6 meters), diameter of standing ring 48 to 50 feet (15 meters), diameter of the seven rings which form the basis of the design 78 to 80 feet (24 meters)." A photo of the Barbury Castle crop circle is available at http://alpha.mic.dundee.ac.uk/ft/crop_circles/1997/ 1997.html. (See CNI News, Volume 3, Number 4, part 1 for May 1, 1997. Many thanks to Mike Lindemann and CNI News for this report.) On April 26, 1997, the second crop circle appeared in Littlebury Green, Essex, just off Motorway M11. Phenomena researcher Paul Vigay said the circle had probably been formed on April 22 or 23. "The formation consists of a single large thin ring with a much smaller ring attached like a bauble on a necklace. In addition, there are two thin, slightly curved lines forming a large V shape, meeting at the center of the larger circle and extending several yards outside the perimeter." The larger circle is about 300 feet (97 meters) in diameter. A photo is available at http://rainbow.medbury.com/ enigma/Photo/ess97a.jpg (Many thanks to Paul Vigay for posting this news in Usenet.) from the UFO Files... 1883: STRANGE CREATURE CAUGHT NEAR MASTERTON, NEW ZEALAND One of the strangest "creature" sightings in the southern hemisphere took place near Masterton, in the far south of New Zealand's North Island. "On May 9, 1883, great excitement was caused at Masterton, New Zealand when there was at large an unknown animal with curly hair, short legs, and broad muzzle. Its species was unknown. One dog sent after it was flayed alive by it, while other dogs ran away." (See FLYING SAUCERS UNCENSORED by Harold T. Wilkins, The Citadel Press, 1955, page 91.) FUN UFO WEBSITES Speaking of crop circles, Martin Keitel of Finland's Center of Circles Information (FCCI) has a Website full of articles about them in both Finnish and English. You can visit the Center at http://crop-circles.sip.fi For an in-depth look at UFOs in Canada, check out the MUFON Canada site. Director Michael Strainic has a huge archive available. Log in at this URL-- http://www.renaissoft.com/ufocanada Don't miss our parent site, UFOINFO, which offers a surprising smorgasbord of news, features and pictures. Drop in at http://www.ftech.net/ ~ufoinfo/index.htm For back issues of UFO ROUNDUP, be sure to visit our page at http://www.ftech.net/~ufoinfo/ roundup.hts
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 21:02:41 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 23:30:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen At 02:16 AM 5/4/97 -0400, you wrote: >From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com >Date: Fri, 02 May 97 17:03:14 cst >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen >>So, Vince take it to Meier! Quit bantering with me. It's a >>waste of time. >I don't have to go see Meier (or Adamski). I have their words >and writings to consider. After consideration, I concluded >that they were kooks and/or con-men. Then take it somewhere else, I don't share your judgements! I don't need a selfappointed "expert" defaming the reputations of people he does not nor has ever met or communicated with. In my opinion, And I am going to classify you, based on the replys you continually throw my way: You and Kal Korff went to the same school of ethics, morals, and expression. >>Need I answer this question, Vince? I will only say, that I >>was not there...I don't have any special insight, pro or con, >>into these cases. I am not in a position to "judge" their >>motives. I will not make slanderous remarks against the >>character of these people. You may do as you please. >Expressing an honest opinion about people who have actively >sought celebrity is not "slander." And yes, we all make >judgments about people all the time. Don't you make judgments >about whom you want to associate, or politicians you might >vote for? Have you ever had jury duty? I doubt very seriously that your opinions are honest, Vince. You consider to slander these gentlemen by continually judgeing them as: con-men and Kooks. I do not think you have the ethical right to do that. Your continuous arguement that you do have that right shows ME that I would not want to associate with you on a personal level. You, I'm sorry to say fall more in the arena of a high biased, prejudiced individual. Your opinion has no meaning to me...and I WILL NOT RESPOND TO ANY FURTHER MESSAGES TO YOU. I won't waste my time ON YOU! >>>It's the "probable" that I find to be more useful. In my opinion, Meier >>>and Adamski "probably" are nuts and/or con-men. What do you find to be >>>"probable" in these cases? Here again you support my opinion of you. <sigh> Give it a rest. >Are you objecting to my holding an opinion, or for expressing my >opinion? Opinion is one thing slander and defamation of character is another! >>You'll have to explain this statement. I have no idea what sort >>of outside force could cause one to become a guru to a UFO cult. >>I don't know why you act as if you have no idea of what I am talking >>about. You know as well as I, that many people who have claimed to >>have experiences with this phenomena, report that they have been >>approached by people passing themselves off as "government, or >>Air Force," representatives. These people claim that they were >>intimidated and in many cases threatened with dire consequences. >>Why would Adamski and Meier be any different if there was >>anything to their stories. If you will check back, you will see >>that Adamski did indeed claim that he received threats from time >>to time. I also know that Meier has had attempts on his life on >>several occasions. Why is everything always a CULT, Vince? >>A cult is defined as a "religious group." I see nothing to >>indicate that either Meier or Adamski established "religious >>groups." >An important distinction: Adamski, Meier and others CLAIMED to >have had attempts on their lives. If some shadowy government >agency wanted them dead, they would have died. They didn't, >so.... There is video verification of Meier shows where someone actually shot at Meier, penetrating his coat, hitting a small book in his coat pocket and a metal plate, which stopped the bullet. Now, you can deny that all you wish. I could care less. I will not respond to your slanders again. >The bottom line: Those kind of dramatics are sure to have >thrilled the rubes, don't you think? AGAIN VINCE! YOU NEVER TIRE DO YOU? I pitty those who call you friend...I would that I had never posted to you. I appologize humbly to you for wasting your time and to all who have had to endure this TOTAL WASTE OF TIME! Everyone, Please Forgive ME...I repent! >Was Heaven's Gate a religious group? How about the Solar Temple? >Is there much difference between these groups' theology and Billy >Meier's? >Regards, >Vince Are you a Fanatic of Obsessive Behaviour, Vince? You seem to enjoy pointing out the actions of Unstable Individuals. At least Billy Meier has not ask any of his "followers???" to commit suiside. How about you Vince, Did you Miss the Hale-Bopp? Are you now feeling remorse and wish to take it out on everyone else? Forget it Vince, I really could care less...I don't want to know... Please forget I ever wrote to you. Mike Christol! Search for other documents from or mentioning: mchristo |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Book: 'Left at East Gate'?? From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 21:19:14 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 23:34:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Book: 'Left at East Gate'?? Regarding... >Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:22:35 -0500 >From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Book: 'Left at East Gate'?? John mentioned the following: ><Fenwick> "No, its only referred to very briefly in the book by Jenny >Randles and Dot Street, 'Skycrash'. There's another authoress, but >I've forgotten her name. I think there's about one or two sentence >about that in the whole book. And that was probably the most >important aspect of it...and they couldn't get any more information >on that. John, Skycrash was co-authored by Brenda Butler, Dot Street and Jenny Randles. Some background might be helpful at this point. Brenda lived locally and was acquainted with many people who worked at RAF Bentwaters and RAF Woodbridge. One of those was a USAF security officer who knew of Brenda's interest in the subject of UFOs. On 2 January 1981, he confided the story of a UFO which had crashed in Rendlesham Forest on the night of 27 December, 1980. According to Brenda, he claimed that whilst on security patrol he witnessed a UFO which, apparently having malfunctioned, had come down in Rendlesham Forest. Here, he witnessed a meeting between the Base Commander and some small creatures from the craft. The security officer was given the pseudonym of "Steve Roberts" in the book. Both Steve and his family had been close friends of Brenda's for some five years and he was a trusted source of information. This was the origin of the stories about "alien contact" and it supposedly occurred during the first of the two alleged incidents we know about, not at a later date. As more people contributed personal accounts, what truly happened and when became difficult to determine. Larry Warren told his story to Betty Luca, perhaps better known as Betty Andreasson, a "contactee". Larry saw a TV program featuring Betty and as they lived in the same New England county, he contacted her. Relating his account of the events he claimed to have witnessed, he did not recall any "beings". Betty however thought his story was of significance and put him in touch with Larry Fawcett and Barry Greenwood, who were co-authoring "Clear Intent". Larry was also given a pseudonym, "Art Wallace", in "Skycrash". Although it was accepted that Larry was stationed at RAF Bentwaters, there were grave doubts whether he had actually witnessed any of the events claimed or was simply repeating stories he had heard and elaborating them. These reservations about Larry were expressed In "Skycrash": "Jenny also noticed how his testimony was becoming more elaborate. His first version of events was that he had definitely _not_ seen aliens. This had been an invention to make the story seem too fantastic. Within six months he progressed through "having a feeling I saw something" to describing how he had a kind of telepathic image of an alien implanted into his mind in an underground room to which he was taken. This seemed suspicious. On one occasion Brenda spoke with him, telling things that Steve Roberts had said, but interspersing these with bits of information she had made up off the top of her head. This was a deliberate trap and Art Wallace walked right into it. He agreed with everything, including Brenda's fantasies". When John Burroughs came forward with his story in 1989, he contacted Jim Speiser. An active contributor to the ParaNet discussion forum, Jim commented on aspects of the case, including Larry's involvement, and on one occasion in 1991 stated: "Larry is a very nice, very charming man, who seems as credible as your Aunt Clara, and yet what he says is not only incredible, no one who has checked into his story has been able to verify a single thing he says. Col. Halt claims that Warren wasn't even present at the time of the sightings! And Warren's story is very inconsistent between tellings. Just about a month ago, I overheard him asking John Burroughs what Halt and Col. Gordon Williams look like. So how could he have placed Williams at the scene?" Further to this, the interview with Larry, published in the Spring 1995 (Vol 40, No. 1) issue of Flying Saucer Review, contains the claim: "One "being" moved towards the front, there was a lot of activity, cameras filming all the while. Our Wing-Commander. Lt.Col. Williams, stood nearby with other senior officers (I recognised him, as he was six foot plus)". How could he recognise him if he didn't know what he looked like? But of course, this must be a retrospective recognition, as he apparently only recalled these details under hypnosis. Both RAF Bentwaters and RAF Woodbridge may have had underground facilities, however, that would perhaps be expected as a standard defence precaution. As for meetings with aliens in underground bases and tales of MIB... I suppose it's all part of the game. In March of 1995, issue 10 of "SKYLINK", the magazine published by London UFO Studies (LUFOS), contained an article by Brenda Butler. She wrote: "Why did Steve Roberts come and tell me in January 1981 that an incident happened in Tangham Woods - Rendlesham just outside of Woodbridge air base. He said a craft of some kind had come down in the woods on December 27th 1980. Repair had to be made as the craft was slightly damaged, there were little men trying to repair the craft and this was the original story right through till August 1987. When Steve Roberts suddenly turned up on my doorstep, he had come over from Germany to tell me he had been told along with others to tell UFO investigators about the incident of December 1980. He said, "It was not a Space Craft and that there were no aliens" and that he was told to go out and start the UFO rumours. I asked him why he had told me about the incident in the first place?, he said, "Because he was ordered to". I asked why he had now changed his mind and told me it was not a space craft? He said, "Because we are friends and you are wasting your time chasing shadows", "one day I will tell you what really happened, but it was of no interest to anyone really". So where does this leave us?" One might be tempted to say, "With friends like Steve..." There was always the possibility that the "UFO" stories were deliberate disinformation, but there's a number of anomalies to account for before that's accepted. For example, why did Halt send that memo to the Ministry of Defence? There's no indication that anyone at the Ministry was interested in an explanation for some "strange lights", which they may not even have been aware of. Any documentation on the case hadn't been easy to acquire under the FOIA and a copy of the Halt memo - which was a complete surprise - wasn't obtained until Robert Todd was successful with an alternative and _speculative_ approach in June 1983. So who was it intended to misinform? James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: RobIrving@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:01:33 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 23:35:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell Re: > From: Michael Hesemann 100660,3672@Compuserve.com > Date: Fri, 2 May 1997, 21.51 CET > To: Updates@globalserve.net > Subject: New Roswell Book! > >From: Pamela7@aol.com > >Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:32:50 -0400 (EDT) > >To: Updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: NEW ROSWELL BOOK! <big snip> > BTW, may I ask, Pamela, if you are engaged with him or if there > is any other personal reason for your blind admiration of KKK > which, I'm afraid, is rationally unexplainable? Could this crack of insight signify a new dawn? Run with it, Mike. Rob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: XianneKei@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:13:28 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 23:40:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell I don't know whether to laugh or cry. <sigh> From: Michael Hesemann, 100660,3672@Compuserve.Com Date: Mon, 5 May 1997, 1.03 AM CET To: updates@globalserve.net Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Korff's New Book on Roswell > ROLFLMAO!! Rebecca, that's great!! > But... do I understand you right (since KKK-Kal diagnosed me speaking and > reading disabilities I'm not so sure yet) ... do you mean Pam is Kal in drag? Nope, I didn't mean that at all, Michael. You have displayed this same obsession with trying to put people in drag before. I don't like it one bit. I'm glad you enjoyed the humor though. > I tend to follow your working hypothesis, who else would like Kals ( > unpublished > yet) new book?? I think Kal's book is published, it's just not in stores in Houston yet. Can't speak for anywhere else. As for who would like it? I think anyone who is interested in the subject would want to read it. I don't think you will like it though. I'm just guessing though. > Thanks for your delightful policy recommendation! That's the way > to stop KKK. > violation of international copyright... I will inform Ray tomorrow... was > Prometheus the guy who was nailed on the Caucasian mountains, after > stealing the > fire from the Gods? At least KKK loves flames, as we all learned... I'm sure that Prometheus Books looks forward to a court fight, if indeed Ray takes them to court. Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 4 Re: 'The Randle Report - UFOs in the '90s' From: XianneKei@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:19:21 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 23:41:11 -0400 Subject: Re: 'The Randle Report - UFOs in the '90s' > Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 15:07:34 +0100 > From: Don Ledger <dledger@istar.ca> > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: 'The Randle Report - UFOs in the '90s' > Kevin Randle was kind enough to send Chris Styles and myself an > advanced copy of his latest book 'The Randle Report - UFOs in the > '90s'. When he mailed to us it was noted that it would be in the > bookstores in a week to ten days, however since it took that long to > get here it is now indeed on the bookstands. > > It is published by M.Evans and Company, Inc. New York. The ISBN number > is - ISBN: 0-87131-820-2 It's a pretty good book too! I bought it yesterday here in Houston and I have been working my way through bits and pieces of it. I haven't read it closely enough to nitpick and I probably won't do that. I'm not much of a book reviewer, but I think Kevin can be proud of this book. I'm liking it so far. > Chris and I have a particular interest in this book where Kevin chose > to profile the Shag Harbour Incident in his first chapter. Haven't read that one yet. I'm trying to catch up on the Roswell stuff. > More later. > Regards > Don (Doug) Ledger I did notice that though. I thought maybe you had a brother named Doug. <g> Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 5 Re: NICAP and/or APRO files on Web? From: RGates8254@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:20:16 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 08:56:48 -0400 Subject: Re: NICAP and/or APRO files on Web? In a message dated 97-05-04 06:14:29 EDT, Kevin Randle wrote: >The NICAP files have been sent on to CUFOS, but the APRO files, for >the most part, remain in the hands of the Lorenzen family. >KRandle I was told --as I recall by Walt Andrus, but I am not sure-- that the APRO files were in the hands of some contactee/new age group-- apparently the same group that almost got J Allen Hynek involved with them in the late 80s. Supposedly a whole bunch of file cabinets which contain all said files are currently rotting in one of those storage units. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 5 Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: RGates8254@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:36:46 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 09:00:49 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell All this debate over copies of books that supposedly absolutly can't be out yet is all rather interesting. As a person in the publishing industry, I can tell you that I have seen/requested "review" copies of forth coming books, and received them up to 3 months before the actual street date. Usually its about 4-6 weeks. All this is so that reviews can be published in newspapers and magazines who have quite long lead times for run of the mill stuff --of which Roswell will be considered such by most if not all of them. I have also heard of instances where publishers provided "the select few" galley copies for review purposes/setting up TV interviews etc, all done with the intent of getting them back. So, I am not all amazed by this. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 5 Re: Kal Korff Gets Call From Autopsy "Cameraman"!! From: RGates8254@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:36:55 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 08:53:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff Gets Call From Autopsy "Cameraman"!! A quick comment on *69. I live in the Western US and had "something" dialing my house at 4:30 am, and did so 6 times for the next hour, then 3 or 4 after that. When I would pick up the phone, I would hear a Fax/computer type tone, no voice. After the 2nd call, I did the *69 and it gave me a phone number in Virginia. (Mine does not redial the number) After getting numerous other calls, I finally called the service provider for that area to complain. The customer service people were more than happy to check into it while I was on the phone. I gave them the number, then on hold for a couple of minutes. The tech said that this phone number was a **unlisted** phone number that belonged to a "unlisted" corporation. I asked for the corporations phone number so I could call them and complain and the tech said that ALL the corporations phone numbers were unlisted. So he put me on hold and called the corporation who said that "it belonged to a computer that sends out faxes and it was absolutly impossible for "it" to have called me. The tech told me that he said "well, thats all fine, but then how did these people get your unlisted phone number? Apparently after another pause the woman at the nameless/faceless corporation was "going to send a technician out to the remote site and manually check the computer's data base." Never got another call, and the telephone folks in VA were absolutly great. Anyways another case of weird and strange on the info superhwy. Cheers, Robert In a message dated 97-05-04 17:15:57 EDT, you write: << >Finally, I tried dialing *69, (to automatically get a phone number trace and >automatically dial back the number the person called from) but the machine >said it was unable to "access the number," so I don't know what to make of >this. You don't seem to know much about caller ID. I have it too, and one of the limitations is that it only works for certain areas. If someone calls from an area not served by your phone company's caller ID network, you will get "NO CALLER ID NUMBER" on your box (not "anonymous"). If that happens, calling *69 (or whatever the code is in your area) will not work, either, since both systems use the same information to provide numbers. I've discussed caller ID in great detail with technicians at my telephone company, because I wanted to know exactly how it worked and why it didn't work for some areas. I have no idea about your physical location, but in my area calls from Florida (where I think the cameraman lives) all come in "NO CALLER ID NUMBER" because Florida's network system is incompatible with the one used here in Virginia. There is nothing mysterious about this at all.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 5 Another Planet Found From: werd@interlog.com (Drew Williamson) Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 09:18:26 -0400 Subject: Another Planet Found Oh no not another one! Pretty soon they'll be finding life on one of 'em. Drew Williamson ************************************** SOURCE: Toronto Globe and Mail - p.A14 DATE: Friday April, 25, 1997 Another planet found Discovery dubious, some scientists say The Boston Globe Another planet has been discovered outside the solar system, orbiting a star called Rho Coronae Borealis, which lies about 50 light years from the sun. The astronomers who made the find say this lends support to the idea that planets are commonplace throughout space. While at least eight other planets have been reported outside the solar system in the last two years, some astronomers question whether they are truly planets. If they were formed the way stars are, they might have little relevance in estimating how common planets might be. Stars are believed to form through a gradual collapse of gas toward a central point; planets are thought to form from gas and dust swirling around in a huge disk that gradually grows into a large solid mass. Some astronomers, including David Black, director of the Lunar and Planetary Laboratory at the University of Houston, think all the "planets" found beyond the solar system may have formed the way stars do, and should be classified as "brown dwarfs"-essentially failed stars, too small to ignite their own nuclear fires. But the team that discovered the latest planet, described in a paper to be published in the Astrophysical Journal Letters, say its orbit clearly indicates that it formed the same way planets in the solar system did. Unlike some of the other planets, which have elliptical orbits, this one has an orbit that is nearly a perfect circle. "This discovery helps show that giant planets like Jupiter may be reasonably common around ordinary stars," said Robert Noyes, one of the planet's discoverers. Drew Williamson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 5 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Sun, May 4, 1997 9:39 PM EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 09:04:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell Dear Michael, Here's my response to your latest diatribe against me...I expect (and genuinely look forward to) you responding to the long questionnaire I sent you asking for your stand on everything from Billy Meier's "dinosaur" pictures to his thoughts (the Pleiadian's thoughts) on population control. Please don't try to DUCK THESE QUESTIONS, Michael, as one of Billy Meier's foremost champions, I KNOW you have opinions on this matter. But back to your Email: >snip> >ROLFLMAO!! Rebecca, that's great!! >But... do I understand you right (since KKK-Kal diagnosed me >speaking and reading disabilities I'm not so sure yet) ... do you >mean Pam is Kal in drag? FACT: Michael, I NEVER criticized, as I can recall, your reading abilities. I think this is another example of how you simply "make up" your "facts," as your new book is overloaded with errors - which I shall he happy to point out in excruciating detail (and at the risk of boring everyone) as long as it is productive to do so. In fact, Michael, what famous UFO cases DON'T you believe in? (Please answer this question only AFTER you've answered my long list of Meier-related questions. I don't want any excuses here.) I have no doubt that you WISH I was "Pamela" in drag. If this helps along your fantasies any, you can always paste a photo of my head from my Meier book and put it on the body of any female you like with Adobe PhotoShop software! <snip> <I tend to follow your working hypothesis, who else would like <Kals (unpublished yet) new book?? <Thanks for your delightful policy recommendation! That's the <way to stop KKK...violation of international copyright... I will <inform Ray tomorrow...wasPrometheus the guy who was <nailed on the Caucasian mountains, after stealing the <fire from the Gods? At least KKK loves flames, as we all <learned... <Greetings, Mike Mike, my book IS PUBLISHED, this is yet another example of how you are not grounded in the facts. Looks like my book has beat yours to the market by one month. At this point in time, there are several people who have it and are reviewing it. There's even an upcoming article comparing the accuracy of your book with mine. Should prove interesting. Of course, you would "endorse" the hypothesis that I wrote that Email because any excuse to attack me you tend to seize upon. You must he horribly bored sometimes. I, on the other hand, have resisted the urge for years, but have "had enough" lately. I will probably stop playing these games soon, though, until IF and WHEN you ever address the Meier questions/issues which you so eagerly duck. Finally, there has been no "violation" of International Copyright and you are naive if you think a major publisher would dare attempt such a thing. While I do not speak for my publisher, I suggest you actually SEE and READ the book before making this assumption. It's too bad you really are into research by proclamation and I hope you REALLY WILL follow up on your WORD to send FLOWERS to all those who can identify the text on page whatever it was of your yet-to-be-released book. LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR (FINALLY!) ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS ABOUT MR. BILLY MEIER... Sincerely, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 5 It's a keeper! From: werd@interlog.com (Drew Williamson) Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:59:52 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 09:19:15 -0400 Subject: It's a keeper! Perhaps the owner of this car felt that it became "hot" property after this incident. Drew Williamson ****************************** SOURCE: Toronto Globe and Mail DATE: Saturday, April 26, 1997 Great balls of fire A 1.3-kilogram meteorite tore through the roof of a parked car in the French alpine city of Chambery earlier this month, setting the vehicle on fire. The molten basalt rock fell from the sky about 3 a.m. The car's owner-awakened by the noise of the impact-denied it was a meteorite and insisted on filing an arson complaint with police. Sources: Reuters. New York Times Service Drew Williamson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 5 8,500 Pieces of Space Junk From: werd@interlog.com (Drew Williamson) Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 09:18:32 -0400 Subject: 8,500 Pieces of Space Junk This newspaper article might also raise the question, "with all that stuff up there, how will we know when the aliens are coming?" Drew Williamson ****************************** SOURCE: Toronto Globe and Mail - p. D5 DATE: Saturday April 26, 1997 COLUMN: Mind & Matter The Economist It's a junkyard up there SPACE is so vast that it might seem absurd to worry about it getting cluttered. Consequently, in the 40 years since people began hurling objects skyward hard enough for them to stay in orbit, few have thought much about getting them down again. Now, more than 500 working satellites are circling the Earth, along with nearly 2,000 defunct ones, 1,400 spent rocket boosters and 1,100 other miscellaneous castoffs. And that's not all. Over the years, 137 spacecraft have exploded or broken up in orbit, leaving the Earth in a web of debris. Even minute bits of scrap can wreak impressive destruction when they are travelling at several kilometres a second. A grain of metal a 10th of a millimetre wide can puncture a space suit. Half a millimetre will chip a space-shuttle window badly enough for it to need replacing. Half a centimetre could smash through into the crew cabin, depressurizing it, resulting in what NASA euphemistically refers to as emission loss." Moreover, the jostling is only going to increase. A number of companies are planning to launch communications networks that will triple the number of satellites. Satellites are a potential problem because they are not scattered throughout the vastness of space but concentrated in two main regions: low Earth orbit (LEO), which is between about 200 kilometres and 2,000 kilometres above the ground; and the geosynchronous (GEO) region, about 36,000 kilometres up, where they orbit the Earth at the same rate as the planet spins. The American air force's Space Command monitors everything that its radars are able to see in these two regions-which means most objects larger than 10 centimetres in LEO and one metre in GEO. The total, including satellites, comes to some 8,500. Last July, for the first time, two of them collided. A chunk of an exploded Ariane 4 rocket chopped through a six-metre arm extending from Cerise, a French military satellite. Because radar can only pinpoint positions to within hundreds or thousands of metres, the crash wasn't noticed until a day later, when the two objects' trajectories had clearly changed. By then Cerise had started tumbling (the arm's purpose had been to stabilize the satellite) and a new object- the severed arm --- had appeared in the sky. When the space shuttle was designed in the 1960s, its creators counted on its meeting the occasional micro-meteorite. They never imagined that its path would be strewn with human litter. Now that such litter is commonplace, it has been necessary to replace, at $40,000 (U.S.) apiece, 63 outer windows on the various shuttles since the first was launched in 1981. One proposal that has been floating around NASA for several years is to zap the debris out of orbit. Project ORION would detect so-called "risk objects," one centimetre to 10 centimetres in size --- which are invisible to Space Command's radar-by using a still more sensitive radar. It would then fire a laser at them from the ground. The laser would destroy only a small corner of the object, sending vaporized material shooting off like a tiny rocket exhaust. This would be just enough to nudge the debris out of orbit so it would burn up in the atmosphere. Jon Campbell of NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center, who is trying to get money from the agency for a small test version, says that LEO could be swept free of risk objects for about $60-million to $80 million, and that $200-million would take care of GEO as well. In the long run, he thinks, it would save money. Building armour and lifting it into space is expensive, as is dodging debris (something the shuttle has had to do a few times). Yet some question whether cleaning up space is technically feasible. Joseph Loftus, one of the first people in NASA to work on the problem of debris, says that although it could be done, it would be more expensive than promised. All in all, prevention may be more effective than cure. At the moment the problem is not critical. And the various space agencies have guidelines to ensure it does not become so. These include sending satellites aloft with enough fuel to push themselves back into the Earth's atmosphere, where they burn up, or into a less-populated "parking orbit," at the end of their lives. The coming flood of satellites will be the test of NASA's optimism. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the number of launches worldwide has dropped sharply, from an average of nearly 120 a year during the 1980s to around 70 in 1996. But an increasing number of commercial launches is expected to return this figure to something near its old level in the next three years. "Constellations" of satellites will also be unusually concentrated at particular altitudes. The biggest swarm-924 satellites, to be hoisted by Teledesic-won approval from the U.S. Federal Communications Commission last month. Teledesic says it is abiding by-even exceeding-NASA's guidelines. If its example is followed, all should be well. Otherwise the future may be as depicted in a cartoon that a delegate pinned on the conference noticeboard: forlorn figures in spacesuits, standing with placards reading "No Pollution" and "Green Space," while rockets blast off all around them. And a space summit, perhaps held in Rio, will be needed to sort out the mess. This article first appeared in Economist. Drew Williamson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 5 Re: Korff Responds to Don Allen & Rebecca Schatte From: Don Allen <dona@totcon.com> Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 02:08:14 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 09:23:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff Responds to Don Allen & Rebecca Schatte At 10:32 PM 5/4/97 -0400, Kal Korff wrote: >From: TotlResrch@aol.com >Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 14:19:45 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Korff Responds to Don Allen/R. Schatte >Subj: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >Date: Sun, May 4, 1997 >From: Totlresrch@aol.com >To: updates@globalserve.net <snip> ><Korff wouldn't be sending in ringers to hype his book ><would he? Nahh. :-) >This is addressed more towards Don, but might provide info of interest to >Rebecca, whose work on Alien Autopsy I admire greatly: While I do not mind >speculation, I am NOT Pam Rollins. In fact, I do not know of anyone by this >name. >There are several things wrong with her posting: >1) There is nowhere in my book that says that Marcel got "reprimanded" for >exaggerating what he recovered near Roswell. Thanks for clearing that point up. >This has been an issue for me, because the store is supposed to give me a >copy (of the Hesemann and Mantle book) for my upcoming signing and lecture as >I want to go through their book and compare it with the refutations made in >mine for this upcoming lecture. (sigh). This sounds more like a pissing match than a search for the Truth. >3) I Don't know HOW she could have even read MY book since it would, I >assume, take a couple of days. For everyone's information, I only got MY >copies this PAST WEEK and I had them sent via FEDX to me by my publisher and >was literally the FIRST ONE TO GET THEM!! They were sent to me overnight FEDX >the day my publisher got them from the print house on their docks. It >couldn't have gone any faster than this. My opinion is that she yanked a few chains with her post and since it's not really possible for her to have read two books that weren't available yet, I can therefore conclude she concocted this whole story just to get a rise out of people..which suceeded. >I also know that when publishers send their lots of books to the stores, that >they send them via ground or trucks, and that takes many days. So frankly, I >am skeptical (I hate using that word) about various aspects of this person's >EMail. I'm REAL skeptical about this person's claims. As in, it ain't so! >4) Finally, Don, YOU DISAPPOINT me! I don't need to bring in "ringers" (to >use your verbage) I am certainly a fairly well known person in this field and >if I wasn't already I have certainly become just that ever since joining this >forum -- again, judging by the Emails and their high volume. Ok, so I'm naturally suspicious that a person comes on the List making glowing statements about your book, puts down Hesemann's book and proceeds to put forth erroneous claims about Marcel and tosses in the obligatory derogatory comment about "Silly Meier." Gee, I wonder WHY I suspect something just might be a little fishy here. >5) What HAS taken my time, Don, are replying to well over 100 postings from >people such as yourself. THANKS to YOU, I am just about finished with a >lengthy response to Billy Meier (Because you posted his attack against me >under to excuse of "airing" both sides) and I will finally begin by posting >these replies next week. Currently, it's over 20 PAGES in LENGTH and has >taken days of my time to get into the kind of shape I am happy with. All that on lil' ole me's account? Why, I'm touched. :-) Since you claim to have the ultimate in "conclusive proof" that shows Eduard "Billy" Meier to be a hoaxer of some magnitude beyond any shadow of a doubt, I will simply hold your feet to that fire. That includes examining your facts, scrutinizing your methods and questioning your conclusions. If this makes you uncomfortable or if you aren't used having your claims checked on this List, better get used to it. <g> And if it's true that you can thoroughly debunk Meier's claims with the indisputable "shot between the eyes", that will come out clearly. As for re-posting Billy's articles from his FIGU Website, well fair's fair. You "attacked" his claims, so it's only fair that he has equal time. We'll let the rest of the readership determine what is and isn't valid as far as the Meier case is concerned on any claims or evidence thereof. >Also, another project, my NEW WEBSITE goes on line in less than TWO WEEKS and >that has kept me VERY busy since I have coded all of it myself and there's >LOTS of Meier and Roswell stuff in it, Q&As, FAQs, etc. Good luck on your endeavors. I'm in the process of finishing up my personal Homepage. While it won't have all the bells and frills of major web sites because of limited space, It will feature a few things. Learning HTML has sure been an education. Wait till you come across the <center> vs. <p align=center> Netscapism controversy, ha ha! >I even canceled a meeting I was very much looking forward to with another UFO >researcher Saturday evening who is female, (she knows who she is and posts >Emails to this forum) and had to juggle my schedule for a last minute radio >interview in St. Louis that my publisher had booked. >I don't need to justify my extremely busy schedule to you or anyone, and you >will find, Don, that there are always periods of time where I get VERY busy >and get behind on corespondence and returning phone calls. You just did (see preceeding paragraph). So what? Do you think you're the only one who "gets busy" ? Not! >Maybe you can't relate to this because you have idle time on your hands. Who >knows. :-) I'm not the guy who claims to have all the answers on the Billy Meier case and who claims to have incontrovertible proof that Meier hoaxed _ALL_ his photos. YOU are. The question is, can YOU back these claims up with hard verifiable evidence that proves it..or will you just resort to the the usual lame skeptibunkerin' shop-worn character assassination waffling? It's not good enough that most people simply _believe_ that Meier pulled a scam over on UFOlogy with faking pictures. Show us precisely how he did it consistently. Show me the models, the places he purchased them from, the receipts, etc. While you're at it on your "20 pages", please detail specifically the means how Meier hoaxed the Beamship "sound effects" . >Read into this any "conspiracy" you wish, but you are very wide of the mark >here. I'll be the judge of that, thank you very much. >P.S. When you see how much correspondence I pump out next week, there will be >no doubt by anyone as to HOW I have been spending my time... I'll take _Quality_ over _quantity_ any day. Go for it! Don
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 5 Re: Welcoming Linda From: Honeybe100@aol.com (Linda Cortile) Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 04:49:30 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 09:28:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Welcoming Linda >From: "Klemm - Pamela S." <psklemm@umd5.umd.edu> >Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 08:14:51 -0400 (EDT) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Welcoming Linda In response to more recent questions posed by Pamela S: >I would be interested in hearing of the later experiences if >you would care to share them. I am curious about the >apparent increase in activity. Actually, there was an increase in activity from 1989 to 1993. Some were explored, but most weren't. I'll brief you on one that was explored: (Summer evening in 1991) One evening, I was sitting in the livingroom watching the late night local news. I was knitting a sweater. Suddenly, I felt a deep pain (worse than a bee sting) on the inside of my right ankle. I screamed and jumped up out of the chair. I thought that perhaps, it was a bad bee sting, or maybe a knitting needle pierced my ankle, somehow. I held my ankle in pain and then I looked to see what damage might've been done. The hole in my ankle was about 1/4 inch round. It was extemely deep (maybe down to the bone). It didn't bleed. There was no blood, no bee stinger and no knitting needle anywhere to be found, except for the needles I was holding in my hands. It took about 2 or 3 months for it to heal. I'd never had an injury like that for no apparent reason. Although, I live on the 12th floor, it isn't uncommon for a bee to fly way up the building and come into my apartment. Its happened before, but there was no bee to be found and no stinger in the wound. I mentioned it to my husband when the children were'nt home the next day. A couple of days later, late at night, my youngest son John came into the livingroom. I had put him to sleep at 8PM. It was 12 midnight. He stood there in front of me and said, "Mom, are the bee's buzzing?" I'd thought he was dreaming. He turned around, walked back into his room and went back to sleep. The next day, I telephoned Budd and told him about the injury and what John did the evening before. I went to Budd's place and he photographed my injury. He regressed me, but nothing came out under hypnosis about the wound. This is what did come out: I went to the window to get some air (I'm a smoker). Then I walked back to the chair where I was sitting. From the corner of my eye, I could see the reflection of two tall figures in the wall to wall mirrors I have on the livingroom wall. I didn't want to look up. I was afraid I'd see something. So, I just sat down and tried to be calm, but I couldn't because I felt my heart beating twice as fast as it should've. The next thing I knew (which was my worst nightmare), John came into the room and said to me, "Mom, are the bee's buzzing?" Well... I jumped up and stood in front of him. It was a bad time for John to come into the room. Thats when I saw, what I didn't want to see. There were two, tall, blond haired fellows standing by the entrance door of my apartment. They were interested in John, not me. I was paralyzed while they took him away. I remembered seeing their hands on him and I couldn't move. Even hypnosis couldn't make me remember how they took him out of the house (if in fact they did). I won't let anyone regress my children under hypnosis. They can decide that for themselves when they grow up. My injury healed and now, its a scoop mark. >Looking back on this time in your life now, in 1997, do you think >these events actually increased or did you personally become >more aware of what was happening around you because of your >discussions? It seems that my experiences at that time, had increased. But I don't know if it was due to my discussing them, as I had originally thought. I haven't had an experience, I believe, since 1993 or 94. I've been speaking and discussing them for 3 or 4 years and nothing has happened. I hope it stays this way. >When Budd regressed you to find out the details of the 1989 >abduction there is a time when you say: >"Steve! Why don't you wake up? My children. What's >happening to my children?" The reference to your children... >did you think that they were going to be taken with you that >night? If so, were there memoriesof them being abducted >with you before? Yes. I thought my family would be harmed. Especially, after I threw the pillow and hit the being I saw standing at the foot of my bed. Believing that it had human thoughts like we do, I was afraid it would get even with me and take my children. In the summer of 1989, we believe that John, who was only 6 yrs old at the time, was abducted while I stayed frozen in place and watched. Just as my mother watched it happen to me when I was a little girl during the Casper the Ghost experience. >After you recount what happened on board the craft and return >back to the apartment in the regression, you "slip" back into >an eariler event that happened from your childhood. Budd >mentions that the craft you were in as a youth came to rest >underwater on the "murky bottom of what she took to be the >East River..." Was this the same Casper the Ghost experience >you mentioned earlier? No...and I hope I can remember this correctly, it wasn't the same Casper the Ghost experience I'd mentioned earlier. This one was when I was 11 yrs old, roller skating in a park which was on the coast line of the East River. The funny thing about all of this, is that some have said I've been hallucinating. I wish I were because there's treatment for that. Consequently though, in the "Witnessed" case, if I was hallucinating, this would mean that all of those independent witnesses, saw my hallucination. This very idea, seems to be more bizarre than the case in itself. When the debunkers called me a hoaxer, their statement only served to flatter me. You see, 99% of us are not Bobby Fisher's. The debunkers put me in the 1% category of intelligence to win the "Witnessed" chess game. Unfortunately, I don't know how to play chess. When the debunkers took my identity and splattered it all over the electronic bulletin board of the internet (my real name, address, phone number, etc) and harrassed my children, husband and me, it stirred up a lot of controversy. This clash of opposing views only served to make them look ridiculous, while my case stood firm under all the scrutiny. Yes, its true...the debunkers added even more credibility to the case. As Richard said at one time, "There is always some good that comes out of something bad." He was right. Thanks for your questions. Linda Cortile
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 5 Which way is up? Pt.1 From: werd@interlog.com (Drew Williamson) Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:59:25 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 09:06:31 -0400 Subject: Which way is up? Pt.1 A somewhat satirical look at the debate which continues in Pt.2 Apologies to those who will be unfamiliar with the Toronto references. Drew Williamson **************************** SOURCE: Toronto Globe and Mail DATE: Unknown THIS SIDE UP The ups and downs of cosmic truth In which the author reluctantly abandons the reassuring mysteries of the chaos theory for the dubious order of a stackable universe. BY DAVID MACFARLANE Special to The Globe and Mail Toronto Measurements by scientists have suggested for the first time that the universe has an "up" and a "down." The observation, if correct, would be one of the most surprising and fundamental new insights about the universe to emerge in recent years. -The New York Times, April 18, 1997 THE recent discovery that there is a top and bottom to the universe is, like most scientific discoveries, an answer to a question that I had never thought to pose. Insofar as my own personal scientific inquiries go-and,- with carburetors and VCRs still mysteries, they don't go all that far-I've been more focused on whether the universe has a beginning and an end. Tops and bottoms have never come into it. Sides too, have passed me by. Until now. It's been a little shattering. But the news isn't all bad. After all, black holes, relativity and quantum theory have always been a little difficult to get a handle on. I've had the Stephen Hawking book on our coffee table for years and feel none the wiser for it. On the other hand, the existence of upness and downness seems a concept well within my grasp. That the universe has a top may not be quite the revelation I'd been hoping for, but it's nice to know that in Ontario at least it isn't going to have to bother covering it up on hot summer days. So you've got your up. And you've got your down. I can work with that. I'm not sure that this new information gets us any closer to finding God, but I suppose I'll settle for the knowledge that if I keep going up past the landing, I'll find the garment bags, the old golf-clubs and the Christmas-tree stands. The existence of a cellar comes as good news, too -not that I expect there'll be any more room than there ever is for all the bicycles during the winter. It's just that it's nice to know where, in a metaphysical sense, the Maple Leafs fit into the scheme of things. We're still in the dark about such niggling questions as: What does the universe mean? And, if the upcoming summer blockbuster movies are anything to go by, we're going to stay that way. But thanks to the hard-working scientists at the universities of Rochester and Kansas. we can take some utilitarian comfort in the newly apparent parameters of our existence. We may not know what the universe is, exactly, but at least we can now stack it correctly. This is not an insignificant discovery. Prior to the revelation that there was a right-way up, no-one had to worry about storing the bloody thing. There was the universe, and that was that. If you were on the outside, you were nowhere; it was sort of like being at Splendidos on a Saturday night with neither a reservation, a limousine, a Los Angeles ad dress or a publicist. In the old alpha and omega days, the universe had a kind of nice, old-fashioned tautology to it. It was what it was-sort of like East York and Scarborough used to be. But now everything has changed. Natch. Scientists, like provincial Tories, can never leave well-enough alone. Good old plain, everyday infinity just isn't good enough for them. Oh no. Now they tell us that there's a top and that there's a bottom to the universe, and what exactly does that mean? Well, duh. Having a top and a bottom means that there is something above the top and below the bottom. Otherwise, what good is either? What is below the bottom of the universe? Based on empirical evidence, I'd have to say clogged drains. Either that, or the top of an other universe-assuming, of course, that one is stacked the right-way up. The existence of another universe is a troubling concept. After all, this one has been hard enough to figure out; it's taken us all this time just to get the arrows pointing the right way. Now, along comes the news that we may be stacked in a pantryful of universes-each one with a top and a bottom, but otherwise with their own idiosyncratic and unfamiliar universal laws. Just think of it. Whole new income-tax acts. There may even be a place where lawyers are allowed to wear shoes without tassles. Why, it may actually be possible-as difficult as such a thing is to conceive of-that somewhere way, way up, or somewhere way, way down, there is a plane of existence on which nobody knows or even gives a hoot that Ellen DeGeneres is a lesbian. David Macfarlane's profiles of Mike Harris and Peter Gzowski were nominated this week for National Magazine Awards. Drew Williamson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 5 Which way is up? Pt.2 From: werd@interlog.com (Drew Williamson) Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:59:13 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 09:07:20 -0400 Subject: Which way is up? Pt.2 Reading this article and the heated debates between scientists (who seem to be always sure about what is and isn't possible) makes one want to say, "can't we all just get along?" Drew Williamson ********************************* SOURCE: Toronto Globe and Mail - Page A13 DATE: Saturday, May 3, 1997 Scientists quarrel over universe origin Astronomers challenge controversial claim that threatens to upset Einstein's theory BY STEPHEN STRAUSS Science Reporter TORONTO-Oops, maybe the universe doesn't have an axis after all. The response has been hot, heavy and negative to a recent highly publicized analysis by two U.S. physicists that seemed to show that the universe had an "up" and "down." If true, it would have meant that everything from Einstein's theory of relativity to the Big Bang theory of the universe's origins would have had to undergo drastic revisions. Last week, several groups took issue with complicated statistics that John Ralston of the University of Kansas and his former graduate student Borge Nodland, now with the University of Rochester, used to arrive at their conclusion. Now, a group of U.S. astronomers has sent out a news release announcing that when they looked at the universe, they see neither up nor down, only randomness. The controversy arose after Prof. Ralston and Dr. Nodland presented evidence based on radio-wave information from 160 galaxies in the April 21 issue of the distinguished scientific journal Physical Review Letters. The information they based their conclusions on had been collected in the 1970s and 1980s by University of Toronto astronomer Phillip Kronberg and his associates. The two U.S. physicists argued that the radio waves seemed to be travelling through space in a slow rotating pattern that they likened to a corks crew. The waves went through one complete revolution every billion light years, and the degree of twisting was greater in one direction than the other. At the time of the paper's publication, Dr. Ralston told journalists that the standard model of the origin of the universe might be wrong. The model saw the Big Bang happening uniformly through time and space-a major tenant of modern cosmology and one backed by Einstein's theory of relativity. "Perhaps it was not a perfect Big Bang, but a Big Bang with a twist to time and space," he said. But another group of U.S. astronomers has looked for evidence of the corkscrew in more modern and higher quality information and found absolutely nothing. "We think it [the Nodland-Ralston finding] is an entirely bogus result," said Rick Perley, one of the new study's co-authors and an astronomer at the National Radio Observatory in New Mexico, where some of the readings were taken. Dr. Perley points out, in a paper that has also been submitted to Physical Review Letters, that little or no rotation was observed in any of 26 quasars (radio-wave-emitting sources) and galaxies they studied. For example, one quasar was so far away that it should have had its radio emissions rotated by a nearly 90 degree angle if the Nodland-Ralston hypothesis was correct. H had no twist in it, the U.S. group said. "I don't think they understood the objects they hung their theory on," said John Wardle, an astronomer at Brandeis University near Boston and another co-author of the submitted paper. For their part, Prof. Ralston and Dr. Nodland argue that their critics have misunderstood their paper and that the arguments are largely baseless. "We were expecting to be attacked, but these are pretty weak, nothing but straw-men analysis," Prof. Ralston said. He argued that not enough galaxies and quasars had been looked at by the radio astronomers to refute the original observation. He also lambasted the U.S. astronomers for issuing a news release be fore their paper had been accepted for publication. "This is really outrageous," he said. He further suggested that it was also impossible to argue against his theory and not use any of the complex statistical analysis he and Dr. Nodland developed. He added that critics of his statistical approach, notably Daniel Einsenstein at the Institute for Advanced Research at Princeton and Emory Bunn at Bates College in Lewiston, Me., apparently hadn't realized that three separate statistical analyses were in play. "The critics here are attacking us on only one premise," he said. He pointed out that before the original paper was accepted for publication, six referees from Physical Review Letters had gone over it with a fine-tooth comb looking for errors. Prof. Kronberg sides with Prof. Wardle, Dr. Perley and Marshall Cohen of the California Institute of Technology, the newly submitted paper's third author. "This is a very large effect, and it should be very clear whether it is there or not," he said. "The answer is that it is not." Finally, one additional element is in play in what may sound to the public like the verbal jousts of scientists fighting over extremely arcane phenomena. Participants on both sides freely acknowledge that something of a culture clash is at work. Prof. Ralston and Dr. Nodland are theoretical physicists. The three U.S. astronomers are just that: astronomers. Nobody thinks the others really understand the subtleties of their field. "They haven't addressed the main point, which is the statistical correlation," Prof. Ralston said. "He doesn't understand a damn thing," Prof. Wardle responded. "... An old professor of mine in England once said to me . . . if you need statistics to prove something, it probably isn't true. If you can't see it, then you are probably fooling yourself." Drew Williamson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 5 Re: Kal Korff Gets Call From Autopsy "Cameraman"!! From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 11:24:44 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 16:28:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff Gets Call From Autopsy "Cameraman"!! >From: Michael Hesemann, 100660,3672@Compuserve.com >Date: Mon, 5 May 1997, 1.18 AM CET >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Kal Korff Gets Call From Autopsy "Cameraman"!! >>From: TotlResrch@aol.com >>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 21:02:31 -0400 (EDT) >>To: Updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Kal Korff Gets Call From Autopsy "Cameraman"!! >* They still allow me to live here even after you revealed >that I'm not even able to speak the language... >But maybe even in Germany nobody takes you serious >anyways. Michael Hesemann wrote in response to Kal Korff >P.S. What about a German contest between you and >me? The Jury: Two German teachers, one from the >US and one from Germany. >The test: Each of us has to translate English >sentances into German. The worse pays the better one >a beer... >...and a two weeks vacation on Hawaii. >Maybe that's on a higher level than the usual >mud-wrestling you seem to prefer. Michael, you are being unfair to Kal, because Kal could never win such a match. He seems to think that because there are 40 German dialects that he is allowed to use one of them in writing. His understanding of the German language has not yet progressed to the point that he knows that that there is only one German language that is the same everywhere. __________________________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Leiden, The Netherlands \___________________________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 5 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: RobIrving@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 08:08:49 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 16:30:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell Re: > Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 08:14:35 +0000 > From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell Philip, > I share also Bob Shell's comments concerning the autopsy > photo's, what does this say about his 'research' when he > publishes photo's without permission? Didn't you also have similar problems recently, selling images without consent? As you've brought it up, now might be a good time to dispel those rumours concerning your problems with the picture agency in Leeds, UK. Rob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 5 Re: New Canadian UFO Book From: "Joe Daniels (UFO JOE)" <ufojoe@cron-2.mco.on.ca> Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 09:12:27 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 17:32:38 -0400 Subject: Re: New Canadian UFO Book On Sat, 3 May 1997, Geoff Dittman wrote: > On Fri, 2 May 1997, Joe Daniels (UFO JOE) wrote: > > Okay, it's near the top of page 145: > > "He [Keyhoe] eventually founded the National Investigations > > Committee on Aerial Phenomena, or NICAP for short." > The author is inconsisten too then. I may have to eat humble pie on this one. According to David Jacobs in his book "The UFO Controversy in America" Keyhoe did have a hand in the formation of NICAP: "A group of private citizens interested in UFOs and dissatisfied with Air Force policies met in October 1956 to organize the Flying Saucer Discussion Group.... With the help of Keyhoe, Brown appointed to the board of governors a retired army brigadier general, two physicists, two ministers, and two businessmen, among others.... Brown changed the club's name to the professional sounding National Investigations Committee on Aerial Pehnomena and had the organization incorporated on October 24, 1956.... Keyhoe purposely stayed in the background, not wanting reporters to 'jump on it [NICAP] and picture it as a Keyhoe-inspired deal'" So it may seem that Keyhoe may have indeed formed NICAP, but wanted to create the impression that he did not. > Have you read his Avro Arrow book? No I have not. Have you? .--------------------------------------------. | From UFO Joe Daniels http://cron-2.mco.net | | 37122-769 Southdale Rd. London, ON N6E-3B3 | | An active member of CUFORN & MUFON Ontario | `--------------------------------------------'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 5 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 05 May 97 08:58:48 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 16:31:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 13:10:52 -0700 (PDT) >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? Jim, It seems to me that the proper question is: Are contactees ever told the truth? I am skeptical of most contactee stories in the sense that I think it is not necessarily true that they are being contacted/abducted by ETs. The same scenario has been played out over and over as far back as we can find historical records, and the same sequence of events appears to have happened in all cases. But the information imparted during the contact has always been skewed to fit into the zeitgeist of the time. So you have gods and angels when that was appropriate, fairies and elves when that was appropriate, devils and demons when that fit, and so on, until today we have "space brothers". All are masks assumed for our benefit. I suspect the truth, if we ever get to it, will be far weirder than any of us have imagined, perhaps weirder than we CAN imagine. BTW, I can recommend a new book for those interested in a brief and non technical background on this. It is _The God Hypothesis_ by Dr. Joe Lewels. Joe has synthesized it all and put it into one easy read. Also, I think the video of Joe's presentation at the 1996 Ozark UFO Conference is still available, and I can highly recommend it as well. Joe is one of those unique people with the brains and courage to venture into this quicksand. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 5 Re: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 05 May 97 08:58:50 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 17:31:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >From: XianneKei@aol.com >Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:13:28 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell Rebecca, >I'm sure that Prometheus Books looks forward to a court fight, if indeed Ray >takes them to court. I'm pretty sure that Ray will not just let this slide. He has already filed suit against previous infringers of copyright, which is far easier to defend on still photographs, as obvious derivatives of the film/video. I have a personal stake in this because I have devoted a lot of time and money to research for my planned book, and have secured the exclusive right to reproduce still images from the film/video in that book. The only other person who has authorization to use ANY still images from the film/video is Linda Moulton Howe, and I worked with her and Ray to select images for her use which would not interfere with my project. However, since we only have Pamela7's word that the images were used, and "she" has proved herself a pathological liar by her own words, we must await the arrival of the book. It has not reached any of the book stores in my part of Virginia yet, so I have to wait. Now I have to buy TWO copies, one for me and one for the lawyers. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 5 British 'Freedom of Information Act'? From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 15:48:55 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 17:34:46 -0400 Subject: British 'Freedom of Information Act'? Hi List, To all British researchers out there. Are you aware that the new British government under Tony Blair is planning to enact a freedom of information act? I read it in the Herald Tribune. The paper did not elaborate on it and I was stuck with a question. Namely, what would be the difference with the current Official Secrets Act? __________________________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Leiden, The Netherlands \___________________________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 5 Korff to Hesemann re: Autopsy "Cameraman" From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 05:11:54 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 16:26:45 -0400 Subject: Korff to Hesemann re: Autopsy "Cameraman" In yet another Email, Michael Hesemann wrote to me: <snip> <Fine for you. The only problem is... I'm afraid I don't have <any reason to believe you. You lied too much in the past. <Oh, sorry, maybe I couldn't understand you, maybe my <English is as worse as your German or as you say my <German is (at least here we have another, easy-to-prove- <wrong example of a typical KKK character assassination <and lie! KKK claimed, michael Hesemann doesn't <speak proper German. German teachers of the world, <unite and check it out! I'm ready for the exam!)... < <Anyhow, I herewith declare your latest claim -excuse my <British English- "just another bloody lie" unless you <deliver any proof. Michael, I DO NOT CARE IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME! (YAWN) <What about that: may you please ask the cameraman <the date when he called me the last time? (He <would remember, no question, since it was close <to his birthday) Proof it or shut up! I think the correct English word here that you MEANT to use, Michael, is "prove" it not "Proof" it. Tsk, tsk. Michael, I think you need to go back to SMOKING some of that Pleiadian Ganja (sp?) you fancy....since I have only had ONE CONVERSATION with this "cameraman," and it has ALREADY TAKEN PLACE, I was in NO POSITION to do what you ask. If this person should call again, however, I will do this one favor for you, I promise. >To Pamela 7, I did not know that Hesemann and Mantle's book was even out yet, >I just checked with a Barnes-Noble book store in a nearby town where I am >scheduled to do a signing in early June on my book and they did not know when >they are expecting their copies. I want very much to get a copy of Hesemann >and Mantle's book, because I intend to use it in my upcoming lectures and >appearances as a shining example of what's WRONG in this field. I will be >happy to buy your copy in the interests of saving time and if >you really did not like it as you seem to imply. <Whoow, now you are talking to yourself on the net! But - the <book is not out yet. I am happy you gonna show it on your <shows, since all those who dislike your book (just everyone, <I'm sure) will learn where they get the real information. <I admire your remote viewing skills, or how else do you know <that the book "is a shining example of what's wrong in this <field". Michael, I have NO REMOTE VIEWING SKILLS that I am aware of (I'm not a Courtney Brown) and it is YOU that TALKS TO HIMSELF! YOU SAT THERE AT BOTH THE UFO WEST EXPO and at the MUFON 1995 ANNUAL SYMPOSIUM and talked to yourself out loud while I was lecturing. Finally, Erik Beckjord (and others) had to tell you to "shut up!" (That's a quote, and it's on videotape from Underground Video). <BTW, please don't forget to call Ray to clear the rights for the <picture, or we have to show your book as a shining example of <"what is wrong in this field", meaning the sleazy combination <of lies, copyright piracy and character assassination, or, <with one word, KKK methods. < <Sincerely, Michael Hesemann, Dusseldorf/Germany * < <* They still allow me to live here even after you revealed <that I'm not even able to speak the language... <But maybe even in Germany nobody takes you serious <anyways. Michael, my new book on Roswell IS NOT about character assassination. SINCE YOU HAVE NOT READ IT, YOU ARE IN NO POSITION TO MAKE THIS COMMENT!!!! I WOULD ADMIRE YOUR "REMOTE VIEWING" SKILLS IF THEY HAD BEEN ACCURATE THIS TIME, MICHAEL, BUT THEY ARE NOT. Michael, I REPEAT for the LAST TIME, I NEVER SAID YOU DID NOT SPEAK FLUENT GERMAN!! If you CONTINUE to MAKE THINGS UP like this than I shall NOT respond to any more of your EMails and then what will you do to amuse yourself!? : ) As I said in one of my PUBLIC Emails (which has been posted here, thanks to the generosity of Errol Knapp), "you could spank me in a German speaking contest any day." No doubt, you'd enjoy it -- that and seeing me in Drag!! : ) (that was my attempt at a joke, Michael.) Regarding my phone call from the alleged "Cameraman," as I also said in my posting (WHICH YOU IGNORE, OF COURSE!) I found the whole thing AMUSING since I do NOT believe that such a person exists. As I also said (WHICH YOU IGNORE, OF COURSE!) that as far as I am concerned it is just a VOICE on the other end of the phone, nothing more at this point. Regarding my alleged "lies" Michael, WHY don't you EXPOSE the FLAWS in my Meier research like you've PROMISED for YEARS now?? Please START with my expose of Meier's "Venus" and "dinosaur" photos and ALL the OTHER issues I cited in my Email to you a while back which you have NOT responded to. I will send you the list again so there's no EXCUSE for you to DUCK these issues. Inquiring minds want to know, Michael, and you'd be an even greater "hero" to Meier's numerous supporters. And Michael, sorry you are so PARANOID, but I did NOT "take advantage" of you while you were in Canada to suddenly start my numerous Emails. As much as you may NOT LIKE HEARING THIS, MICHAEL, I AM TOO BUSY TO WORRY EITHER ABOUT YOU OR WHAT YOUR SCHEDULE IS. I DID NOT KNOW YOU WERE IN CANADA NOR DO I CARE! Deal with it. Finally, my "cameraman" conversation is JUST AS CREDIBLE as YOURS or SANTILLI'S OR PHILIP MANTLE'S. Just a voice at the end of the phone, with no tape recording. I do hope (for the UFO field's sake) that the call was genuine...especially if this person follows through and sends the stills and film clips he promised. As I mentioned I will post my notes on this conversation I had as soon as I get caught up. I have put responding to people's Emails first, and my other commitments on a higher priority basis, only because my "transcript/notes" will prove absolutely NOTHING and I am loathe to contribute even more to the alien autopsy circus. It already has more than three rings going fulltime! Finally, Michael, I REALLY AM GETTING TIRED OF THESE GAMES WITH YOU. I would prefer dealing with issues and not ad hominems. While I have undoubtedly contributed to SOME of the mud that has been thrown I really am tiring of this. Therefore, if you wish to continue to attack me for things I have NOT said, then so be it. I will be in discussions with BOB KIVIAT tomorrow on my conversation with this "cameraman," if you choose to believe I never had such a discussion Michael, then that's your fantasy. As you will notice by at least one OTHER posting directed at you, Michael, I am NOT THE ONLY ONE who thinks your new book contains numerous errors. As I state in a letter to be published in an upcoming issue of Moseley's "Saucer Smear," I think a beter name for your book instead of "Beyond Roswell" should be called "Beyond Gullibility." Also, Michael, as you will see IF and WHEN you READ my NEW book on Roswell, I obtained a copy of your ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPT and THAT'S HOW I was able to REFUTE its contents. (See pages 174 and 226 of my NEW book for starters!) I can EASILY PROVE THIS (and can send you excerpts) but PLEASE DON'T SEND ME ANY FLOWERS. It might start inappropriate rumors and instill more fantasies in your head about spanking me and seeing me in drag! : ) Finally, I am NOT ENGAGED TO ANYONE, and am happily single. I hope someday to meet the right woman and eventually settle down. Doesn't every man pretty much wish the same??? I HOPE this CLARIFIES things with you, Michael, and since I QUOTE from your ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPT in my NEW BOOK, even YOU will have to concede that I was right and telling the TRUTH! BUT PLEASE, don't send me any Roses...a FREE subscription you your magazine 2000 will suffice....this way I can teach myself German! :-) P.S. The NAME OF MY GERMAN PROFESSOR who I had for FOUR YEARS in high school is mentioned on page 11 of my book that exposes Meier, which you keep a copy of in your bathroom. My best friend at the time from Switzerland, Mr. Richard Kirchhofer, is also mentioned on page 11. He and I were the ONLY TWO PEOPLE IN THIS CLASS for my 11th and 12 grade German III and IV classes, so we couldn't hide or duck any of our lessons. This is how I devloped an ear for both german and Swiss-German. I graduated with a "B" in German by the way, Michael. You may call them and speak with them if you like. They'll understand you, whether you speak in German or English. I DOUBT YOU'LL follow up on this, though, because it would destroy your unique REALITY DISTORTION FIELD that knows no bounds. Zieg Heil! and Keep trying Michael, Kal Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Re: Complete 'Autopsy Cameraman's' Statement From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 05 May 97 12:09:25 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 09:15:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Complete 'Autopsy Cameraman's' Statement >From: XianneKei@aol.com [Rebecca] >Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 13:42:53 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Complete Cameraman's Statement Rebecca, Thanks for posting this and thanks to Mark for putting it together. It agrees with my recollection of what I was told was the full "interview" when Ray showed it to me in his office last year. At the time it was shown to me, it had already been edited and story boards with the question numbers had been inserted. Philip Mantle has now seen some of this, and says that he is reasonably sure that this is the same man who telephoned him. At least the voice sounds the same. Is this the real cameraman? I don't know. I do believe that this is the man that Ray bought the film from. Whether he is really the man who shot the film is less certain. I've been trying to arrange either a face to face or telephone interview with him for more than two years with no success. My one hope is to be able to interview him at some length before he dies. If he is the real McCoy, then he knows things which are vitally important to human history, and must be brought out into the light of day. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Adamski From: Paul Fuller <100611.1013@CompuServe.COM> Date: 05 May 97 14:24:42 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 09:17:54 -0400 Subject: Adamski I've been very interested reading the threads on this List concerning George Adamski. Honestly folks I thought that this one had been put to bed decades ago !! I've been lucky enough to receive a review copy of the excellent new "Fortean Times" book "UFO 1947-1997; Fifty Years of Flying Saucers", edited by Hilary Evans and Dennis Stacy, (John Brown Publishing, ISBN 1-870870-99-9). In it there is an article by Belgium researcher Marc Hallet titled "Adamski and his Believers: A Reminiscence". Hallet describes how as a boy of 12 he was first introduced to the Adamski story when he read one of Jimmy Guieu's books. Hallet became fascinated by the Adamski story and later became a leading proponent of the Adamski claims via a Belgium UFO group founded by Mrs May Flitcroft (who was an old personal friend of Adamski's). Flitcroft encouraged Hallet to write for the group's bulletin and for some years Hallet was given open access to the group's archives. In 1973 (8 years after Adamski's death) Hallet was invited by Mrs Flitcroft to write a book about the Adamski claim. Hallet readily agreed to do so. However, when he began discovering contradictions in Adamski's story Hallet was surprised to discover that Mrs Flitcroft was unable to answer his questions. Instead Flitcroft routed Hallet's questions to Alice Wells at the HQ of the Adamski Foundation in California. Hallet never received a reply to these embarrassing questions. One of the pieces of evidence which had first captivated Hallet as a youth was Adamski's film footage showing spaceships flying through a landscape. Mrs Flitcroft gave Hallet two films Adamski had provided her with many years before. Hallet took the films to a photographic expert "who made some interesting discoveries". Next Hallet examined the film under a microscope... "The microscope revealed a classic trick : two images had been superimposed." Unfortunately Hallet's sceptical examination of the film didn't go down well with the George Adamski Foundation. Mrs Flitcroft returned from a visit to California and demanded that Hallet return the film immediately. In 1976 Hallet resigned from the Belgium pro Adamski group and was soon invited to write a critical book on the case. Hallet admits that "I made a fundamental error : any statement made by Adamski which I did not know to be false, I accepted as true." Even at this stage Hallet admits that he was still inclined to give Adamski the benefit of the doubt. Over the next few years Hallet gradually became convinced that the whole Adamski story was fraudulent. It wasn't until 1994 that Hallet finally demonstrated in "George Adamski : Last Synthesis" that "Adamski had been a professional liar who had duped his followers throughout his life". Hallet's lengthy conclusions about how Adamski operated and the working of his support group make interesting reading. Much the same can be concluded on this affair by reading Jim Moseley's account of his visits to Adamski in 1953 in his book "UFO Crash Secrets at Wright/Patterson Air Force Base" (Abelard, 1991, ISBN 0-938294-73-3). Moseley reports that no one in the famous desert encounter with the Venusian saw anything more than a "dirigible- shaped mother ship" and a "flash of light" - and all of this was from a vantage point one mile from Adamski's alleged encounter. Adamski's claim in "Flying Saucers Have Landed" that two navy electronics engineers had confirmed the landing of a flying saucer in Mexico was emphatically denied by one of the engineers according to Moseley, who found contradictions and inconsistencies in everything he researched on the case. I don't understand why some UFO researchers continue to promote the Adamski case, but I believe that for a balanced analysis we should speak with people who were there at the time and who tried to find rational explanations for the Adamski claim. I hope this information proves useful, Paul Fuller The Crop Watcher, The New UFOlogist
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Re: Which way is up? Pt.2 From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 05 May 97 11:26:15 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 09:14:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Which way is up? Pt.2 >Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:59:13 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >From: werd@interlog.com (Drew Williamson) >Subject: Which way is up? Pt.2 > "He doesn't understand a damn thing," Prof. Wardle responded. "... An old >professor of mine in England once said to me . . . if you need statistics >to prove something, it probably isn't true. If you can't see it, then you >are probably fooling yourself." An old professor of mine in Virginia once said that anything you could not explain to a six-year old was nonsense. Both statements, in spite of coming from professors, are twaddle. Just because an unidentified old professor in England said this are we supposed to just accept it? Professor Wardle's statement, if quoted accurately, deserves an award for one of the dumbest things ever said by a scientist. This sort of reminds me of the dispute between archeologists and geologists over the age of some monuments in Egypt. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswel From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 05 May 97 11:26:13 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 09:13:18 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswel >From: RGates8254@aol.com >Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:36:46 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell > All this debate over copies of books that supposedly absolutly can't be >out yet is all rather interesting. > As a person in the publishing industry, I can tell you that I have >seen/requested "review" copies of forth coming books, and received them up to >3 months before the actual street date. Usually its about 4-6 weeks. > All this is so that reviews can be published in newspapers and magazines >who have quite long lead times for run of the mill stuff --of which Roswell >will be considered such by most if not all of them. > I have also heard of instances where publishers provided "the select few" >galley copies for review purposes/setting up TV interviews etc, all done with >the intent of getting them back. Robert, You are missing the point here. I'm a magazine editor, so I know about advance review copies, uncorrected proofs, etc. I get them all the time. However the person who started this exchange about Kal Korff's new book and Mike Hesemann/Philip Mantle's new book claimes that she had BOUGHT the books. I know for a fact that the Hesemann/Mantle book is not out yet. I phoned the publisher this morning and was told it would be two or three weeks minimum before it came out. AKA "Pamela7" claimed she bought the books and compared them, and this is what we were saying was impossible. I got uncorrected proofs of the Mantle/Hesemann book over a month ago, as did a number of others with reason to see it ahead of time. Unless "Pam" is a prominent researcher or book reviewer, there is no legitimate way for her to have the books, and no legitimate way for her to have bought them. That was the point. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Dutch UFO-Reporing Centre From: Karel Bagchus <karel@worldonline.nl> Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 17:24:23 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 09:16:55 -0400 Subject: Dutch UFO-Reporing Centre Hi there, I guess I'm having another bad day over here. Last week I translated an article about Monique Hendriks and her UFO-Reporting Centre. I wrote her a letter, and got her reply today which was kind of a disappointment to me. I asked her if she would be interested in sharing her cases and research with this list, and her response was: "When you dive into the Internet, you get an overwhelming amount of information that is absolutely not true. The sincerity-percentage of Internet Info is very low. That is the reason why I absolutely do not want my serious research to be spread through the Internet." That is of course her good right. -------------------------====### KUFOR ###====--------------------- Karel's UFO Research Karel Bagchus E-mail: karel@worldonline.nl WWW: http://home.worldonline.nl/~karel/ufo/ ICQ: 303261
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Re: Korff Responds to Don Allen & Rebecca Schatte From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 05 May 97 11:44:28 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 09:15:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff Responds to Don Allen & Rebecca Schatte >Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 02:08:14 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Don Allen <dona@totcon.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Korff Responds to Don Allen & Rebecca Schatte >I'll take _Quality_ over _quantity_ any day. Go for it! Don, That just about puts it in a nutshell. Bob P.S.: Look up solipsist in your dictionary.............
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: MAC TONNIES <0212104@ACAD.NWMISSOURI.EDU> Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 19:01:51 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 09:25:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? Bob Shell wrote: >Date: 05 May 97 08:58:48 EDT >From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? [...] >So you have gods and angels when that was appropriate, fairies >and elves when that was appropriate, devils and demons when that fit, >and so on, until today we have "space brothers". All are masks assumed >for our benefit. >I suspect the truth, if we ever get to it, will be far weirder than >any of us have imagined, perhaps weirder than we CAN imagine. >BTW, I can recommend a new book for those interested in a brief and >non technical background on this. It is _The God Hypothesis_ by >Dr. Joe Lewels. This sounds very akin to the ideas of Jacques Vallee. "Passport to Magonia" is essential, and his book "Dimensions" offers an expanded treatment of his hypothesis. Vallee is wary of "crashed hardware" but simultaneously considers UFOs a very physical phynomenon. **************************************************************** Mac Tonnies * #415 Franken Hall, NWMSU * Maryville, MO 64468 (816) 562-6488 * E-mail: 0212104@acad.nwmissouri.edu Web: www.nwmissouri.edu/~0212104/apu.html "Today's Abstractions are Tomorrow's Archetypes" ****************************************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Re: Lake Ontario - news.group item, 1993 From: Sean <Tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:17:00 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 09:21:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Lake Ontario - news.group item, 1993 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >Subject: re: UFO UpDate: Lake Ontario - news.group item, 1993 >Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 11:34:14 -0700 >UFOs have always been "interested" in power plants and other installations. >John Fuller's book on the "Incident At Exeter" demonstrated a significant >interest in power lines, Fowler's "UFOs: Interplanetary Visitors" and >NICAPs "UFO Evidence" confirm a pattern of interest in vehicles, power >plants, defense installations, etc. But then again, UFOs have also demonstrated >an interest in homes and lone individuals, and prosaic stuff like rocks and >plants. I have often wondered why ..... >There is insufficient evidence to develop theories of intent. For instance, >Fuller and Lorenzen theorized that the interest in powerlines was a >prelude to the '65 blackout in the Northeast US, but similar interest >was exhibited elsewhere in the world, and at many times before and >since. This is not to discount the theory, but simply to say that specific >theories of intent have not been provable or falsifiable on the basis of the >evidence available to this point. I never said I agreed with either theory I just put them forward as what has been said, My personnal theory is If when we explore the stars (in the not so distant future) would we too would want to look at everthing before we venture thurther contact? >------- In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible. Sean Jones http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 NICAP's Formation & quote. From: DRudiak@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 09:51:55 -0400 Subject: NICAP's Formation & quote. In the thread New Canadian UFO Book: "Joe Daniels (UFO JOE)" <ufojoe@cron-2.mco.on.ca> wrote: > I may have to eat humble pie on this one. According to David Jacobs > in his book "The UFO Controversy in America" Keyhoe did have a hand > in the formation of NICAP: > "A group of private citizens interested in UFOs and dissatisfied > with Air Force policies met in October 1956 to organize the Flying > Saucer Discussion Group.... With the help of Keyhoe, Brown appointed > to the board of governors a retired army brigadier general, two > physicists, two ministers, and two businessmen, among others.... > Brown changed the club's name to the professional sounding > National Investigations Committee on Aerial Pehnomena and had the > organization incorporated on October 24, 1956.... Keyhoe purposely > stayed in the background, not wanting reporters to 'jump on it > [NICAP] and picture it as a Keyhoe-inspired deal'" > So it may seem that Keyhoe may have indeed formed NICAP, but >wanted to create the impression that he did not. Brown, however, quickly left NICAP. Maybe somebody knows the history. Retired Rear Admiral Delmer S. Fahrney, former head and founder of the Navy's guided missile program and a friend of Kehoe's, took his place as NICAP board chairman. The first organizational meeting of NICAP was held in Washington D.C. on Jan. 16, 1957, and was actually briefly reported on by the New York Times. The interesting part was Fahrney's comments in a press conference held afterwards in which he stated that "there are objects coming into our atmosphere at very high speeds. No agency in this country or Russia is able to duplicate at this time the speeds and accelerations which radars and observers indicate these flying objects are able to achieve." Also, "an intelligence" directs such objects "because of the way they fly. They are not entirely actuated by automatic equipment. The way they change position in formations and override each other would indicate that their motion is directed." That seems like a pretty definitive statement that they were real from a top military man and rocket scientist type. As I remember, Fahrney was gone in a few more months, and that's when Keyhoe took over. Again, I don't know the details of what happened. David Rudiak
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 17:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 09:27:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? > Date: 05 May 97 08:58:48 EDT > From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? > >Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 13:10:52 -0700 (PDT) > >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? > Jim, > It seems to me that the proper question is: Are contactees ever told > the truth? Bob, The spreading of disinformation doesn't work so well if the source doesn't add in some truths, in particular, some truths that the reader can check up on and say, "Yes, indeed, that's true, so why shouldn't I believe the rest, too?" > I am skeptical of most contactee stories in the sense that I think it > is not necessarily true that they are being contacted/abducted by ETs. There are undoubtedly a few here and there who make up their stories, for one reason or another. So one has to be skeptical of all, at least until you've researched each thoroughly for yourself. I understand that John Mack had one ringer amongst his abductees; that's the way one expects it would normally unfold -- the hoaxer later brags about her ability to have fooled the researcher, in an attempt to discredit the researcher. > The same scenario has been played out over and over as far back as we > can find historical records, and the same sequence of events appears > to have happened in all cases. But the information imparted during > the contact has always been skewed to fit into the zeitgeist of the > time. So you have gods and angels when that was appropriate, fairies > and elves when that was appropriate, devils and demons when that fit, > and so on, until today we have "space brothers". All are masks assumed > for our benefit. That part fits in well with the idea that the aliens are intelligent enough to have become informed of what the Zeitgeist of the times is -- perhaps even more intelligent than we are!! > I suspect the truth, if we ever get to it, will be far weirder than > any of us have imagined, perhaps weirder than we CAN imagine. Um, that's why the Meier case has its detractors among those of limited imaginations. If you were to look into it in depth, I think you'd find much right there to exemplify your suspicion. > BTW, I can recommend a new book for those interested in a brief and > non technical background on this. It is _The God Hypothesis_ by > Dr. Joe Lewels. Joe has synthesized it all and put it into one easy > read. Also, I think the video of Joe's presentation at the 1996 > Ozark UFO Conference is still available, and I can highly > recommend it as well. Joe is one of those unique people with the > brains and courage to venture into this quicksand. I've read it and also find it to be really excellent, for the most part. For those less interested in the "God hypothesis" portion, its first 2/3 or so mainly concerns the UFO phenomenon and does a great job. Joe was unable to attend the 1997 Ozark Conference, but Brian Crissey presented his talk for him, and did a superlative job. So I recommend purchasing the video of that also, if only List participants had the time to look at videos! Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 'Contents' of Korff's New Roswell Book From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 19:29:19 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 09:24:44 -0400 Subject: 'Contents' of Korff's New Roswell Book Many of you have Emailed me and asked me questions like "What's the table of contents like for your new book?" Well, the following outline should give all of you a pretty good idea: Acknowledgments Preface Chapter 1 The Roswell UFO Crash: A History, The Claims Chapter 2 The Original Roswell Eyewitnesses Chapter 3 The New Roswell "Witnesses" Chapter 4 The "Alien" Materials Recovered at Roswell Chapter 5 The Air Force Cover-up: What the Roswell Object Really Was Chapter 6 Roswell: Setting the Record Straight Chapter 7 The Alien Autopsy Film Chapter 8 The Rowell UFO Crash: Whatever Happened to the Truth? Appendix: The NYU Balloon Flights Bibliography Index The book has 26 figures/illustrations in it, not 24 as previously reported, and most of them are in a glossy photo insert in the middle of the book. Chapter 5 is the crux of the treatise basically. Chapter 2 examines Major Marcel's testimony and distortions, (among others) and opens with an ironic quote from Stanton Friedman which says "When someone lies about their background, one has to wonder what else they [sic] might be lying about." This is a valid observation by Mr. Friedman, but I am not sure that he ever applied it to Major Marcel. Hope this answers those of you who have requested this information. I can elaborate at a later date on specific sections if you wish and as time permits. Still snowed under but managing to chip away at my workload, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:04:46 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 09:57:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >Date: 05 May 97 08:58:50 EDT >From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >>From: XianneKei@aol.com >>Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:13:28 -0400 (EDT) >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >Rebecca, >>I'm sure that Prometheus Books looks forward to a court fight, if indeed Ray >>takes them to court. >I'm pretty sure that Ray will not just let this slide. He has already >filed suit against previous infringers of copyright, which is far easier >to defend on still photographs, as obvious derivatives of the film/video. >I have a personal stake in this because I have devoted a lot of time and >money to research for my planned book, and have secured the exclusive >right to reproduce still images from the film/video in that book. The >only other person who has authorization to use ANY still images from >the film/video is Linda Moulton Howe, and I worked with her and Ray to >select images for her use which would not interfere with my project. >Now I have to buy TWO copies, one for me and one for the lawyers. >Bob Bob: I hate to redund here, if that's what I'm doing, but what is this business about copyright? If the cameraman was employed by the US military then the copyrights appropriately belong to them, not him, nor, by extension, to Santilli. Remember when Santilli threatened suit against Fortean Times if they reproduced the cameraman's picture from the interview broadcast on Japanese TV? They balked, but CNI News and the MUFON Journal didn't. So sue us (and apologies aside to Ed Komarek for any leadership on my part). Sue Kal Korff and Prometheus Books for infringement in the bargain. Hell, sue everyone within sight. Don't you think any number of defendants would love to be hauled into court by Santilli--where he might have to establish such messy things as ownership, provenance and the reality of the film in question in the first place? So sue us all--please! Don't hesitate another minute. It'll be the first time in history that Prometheus Books and MUFON, etc., have ever been on the same side of the court room. Nothing personal, you understand, but I'll even buy the second copy of Korff's book for your lawyers myself. Just sue us. Now. Please. San Antonio Sasquatch Search for other documents from or mentioning: dstacy | 76750.2717 |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Re: Welcoming Linda From: Yellowrose <yelorose@swbell.net> Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 00:43:14 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 09:54:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Welcoming Linda >Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 04:49:30 (EDT) >From: Honeybe100@aol.com (Linda Cortile) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Welcoming Linda > From the corner of my eye, >I could see the reflection of two tall figures in the wall to wall >mirrors I have on the livingroom wall. I didn't want to look up. >I was afraid I'd see something. Linda: I am studying reports of things people report seeing out of the corner of their eyes and things seen in mirrors that are not visible when viewed straight on (sounds bizarre, I know, but this is part of what I call "unvisibility"). Experiencers (of many types of phenomena) report seeing things out of the corner of their eyes. Although infrequent, Experiencers who associate their experiences with UFOs/aliens do report seeing shadows or beings just out of their line of sight but cannot see them when they try to look straight at them. Mirrors seem to reflect entities we do not see with the naked eye. This is the second time I've heard of a CEE (Close Encounter Experience) in which beings were seen in the mirror. You described tall, blond beings as coming from or through the entrance to your apartment. Can you remember where they were when you saw them in the mirror? Were they standing near this entrance you describe or were they in another part of the room? Can you give me a little more detail about what you saw in the mirror? Thank you. Amy [Hebert]
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Re: Korff Makes PEACE with Hesemann! From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 19:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 09:22:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff Makes PEACE with Hesemann! Korff Makes PEACE with Hesemann! (Well, sort of...) Dear Michael, in your last Email to me you wrote: <snip> <Dear Kal, <it's "Sieg Heil", and of course the favorite greetings of your <kind! <I don't dare to call you the "Dr. Joseph Goebbels" of ufology, <since <your KKK-Methods of character assassinations are indeed <"Sturmer"- <style. <As I said before, according to Bob Shell and others you <claimed on "UFO Update" that you didn't understand me when I <spoke to you in German, NOT because you are a pathological <liar and lied about your German skills (and I passed a test <in French when I went to University with B and don't <remember more than 10 words anymore) BUT because I don't <pronounce my own language right because of some kind of <"speaking disability". Sorry, Kal, I lectured in front of 30.000 <Germans and spoke to Millions on TV <and everyone understood me, and the only "speaking <disability" I have is a slight Rhinish accent, much slighter <than, e.g. the one of Germanys ex-chancellor Dr. Konrad <Adenauer. <"Wehret den Anfangen!" and "Never Again" to use the greetings <of Germanys ANTIFA movement (Anti-Faschist-Movement) to <which I belonged at my university days... and: Stop KKK! <Greetings, Mike Well, Michael, I must apologize to everyone (and you) for my "Zieg Heil!" remark. I KNOW it's "Sieg" Michael, I've certainly read enough books about the Third Reich to know better, in addition to the years of German I've had. I deliberately mistyped it because it was a DELIBERATE SPOOF on your references to me as "KKK" which are a subtle ploy on your part to imply that I might be a member of the Klu Klux Klan. Wendelle Stevens tried this same, unfortunate tactic years ago on me when I was 18 years of age, and I am sorry that you see fit to imitate him. However, regardless of my motivation(s) for spoofing you, Michael, such a remark is insensitive -- especially to someone like you who, apparently, may have lost relatives in the Holocaust to the Nazi regime. My "Sieg Heil!" remark is also insensitive to those people in general who lost loved ones during the Holocaust, so I am apologizing Michael for reasons INDEPENDENT of the one I have stated specifically to you. Luckily, my ancestors came to the United States before Hitler rose to power and regardless of my personal opinion of you, Michael, I should not casually throw around such remarks. When I do this I certainly have no right to criticize you for using the "KKK" initials on me, although I think you will admit it is childish. It's hypocritical of me and I do sincerely apologize and plan not to do it again. You also have managed to forget, Michael, that the one thing you also DID do was deliberately speak to me faster and faster as you talked on and on in Seattle, and when I realized that you were playing these games and trying to "trip" me up, I of course refused to play along with you. You then MISINTERPRETED this as if I "could not understand a word you said," and decided to fill in your own blanks. Since I did not want to waste my time on this, I never said anything to you. You were already mad enough at me at the MUFON meeting in 1995 in Seattle because of the fact that I gave a "surprise" talk on Billy Meier and showed some undercover footage I shot while in Switzerland and exposed the case as a hoax. My speech is all on video, Michael, from two separate sources. I don't think you've ever seen them because you stated earlier that the video was not released. This is not true. PLEASE Michael, do NOT "lecture" me about copyright violations. My publisher has done NO SUCH THING with my new book, and since you HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET, you are in no position to comment on this. Besides, it was YOU, Herr Hesemann, who was KICKED OUT of a UFO lecture given by one of your fellow Germans because YOU were SECRETLY PIRATING images that you were warned specifically against copying! You did it anyway, and got kicked out. I DID Email you, Michael, a bunch of questions about Meier. If you did not get them, do not worry, I have LOTS more and will Email them to you when I have time later in the week. Michael, if you are FINALLY READY to sit down and DISCUSS the issues and the evidence, then this would be a GREAT SERVICE to the UFO field I think, and certainly in the spirit in which Mr. Knapp I assume runs this computer messaging system. I am certainly going to change drastically the nature of my messages to you...while some have been "entertaining" (according to several people who have Emailed me privately), I am not so sure that the UFO field is served productively at all by carrying on like this. I think you would perhaps agree. I HOPE, Michael, that you are CLEAR NOW that I have indeed read your book (again I excerpt from it in my book on the pages previously mentioned in an earlier post) and that MY book is indeed out in the stores. I know several people who already have it, including Jim Moseley, Karl Pflock, Bob Kiviat, Jeff Hatfield, Rudy Adams, Dan Smith, Bill Marriott, etc. I have signed and sent some 25-30 books out to people myself. Now that I hope you are CLEAR on things and realize that I was NOT LYING about having READ your book or the availability of mine, I look FORWARD to discussing the RELEVANT ISSUES of Meier, Roswell, Alien Autopsy, et. al., after you've had a FEW DAYS to "cool off." I also assume that you will stop with the subtle KKK remarks, or are you going to persist in this game? The choice is yours, of course. I most definitely will be in touch..... : ) Cordially yours, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Re: Information on MIB Needed From: Paul Wedel <pwedel@neptune.on.ca> Date: Mon, 5 May 97 14:46:10 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 09:19:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Information on MIB Needed >Hello everyone; >I am doing research on Men in Black and >I was woundering if anybody had any info >they would like to pass on, or if aomeone >could direct me where I can find good >reliable information. I would truly >appreciate it. Please e mail me at >plandry1@netcom.ca >Thank-you >Diane Landry Dear Diane, I am currently doing research on a Native Reserve in Central Ontario and have interviewed one person who encountered a "man in black" several years ago. Details as follows. A local medicine woman, let's call her Jill, claimed that one hot humid summer day she observed as a man all dressed in black who stood by the roadway at the entrance to Jill's driveway - rather long about 150 feet. She had to drive out to get some things and passed the man as she turned onto the reserve highway. He was very neatly dressed and she stopped and asked him if he needed a ride anywhere, remarking how she had seen him standing there for some time. He accepted her request and sat in a back seat in her van. Despite the intense heat and humidity he did not appear to be sweating. His hair was neatly slicked back and evenly combed. He wore all black clothing and dark sunglasses. He had a dark complexion and Jill thought he was native. He told Jill that he had heard people had seen some unusual things around the reserve. She went on to explain all the incredible things that had happened while he sat their quietly listening and knodding his head. Jill had to stop at a friends house to get something and drove in, both she and this 'man' stepped out and she walked to the house that resided in the middle of a large field. When she turned back to say something to him he had vanished from sight. She claimed it would have been physically impossible for him to run that fast or hide from her sight. Jill presented herself as a very level headed and spiritual native traditionalist. She does not drink alcohol and has a family. She and her husband are both medicine people on the reserve and work hard in the community where part of their role help in healing. My own subjective impression was that she was telling me the truth. Hope this helps your research. If you come across any reports on events involving Aboriginals I would very much appreciate a copy. :-) Best regards, Paul. Paul (Twigman) Wedel !-:-) There are many paths through the forest, they all lead to the other side.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 AUFORA: [1996 UFO] Gallup poll results From: David Watanabe <davew@aufora.org> Date: Mon, 5 May 97 21:53:04 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 10:11:45 -0400 Subject: AUFORA: [1996 UFO] Gallup poll results AUFORA News Update Monday, May 5th, 1997 http://www.aufora.org/ _____________________ GALLUP POLL RESULTS from NACOMM - http://www.nacomm.org/ In a little-reported poll taken in early September, 1996, the Gallup Organization asked 1,000 U.S. adults about their belief in UFOs and life in outer space. The questionnaire also asked about various paranormal subjects such as channeling, astrology, ghosts and angels. The last time Gallup ran a poll on UFOs was in June of 1990. The poll indicated that belief in the reality of UFOs remains about where it has been for the last two decades -- around 50%. According to Gallup, that number peaked in 1978 at 57%. Far more people today, 72%, seem convinced that there is some kind of life in the universe beyond earth, though only 38% think such life will look somewhat like ourselves. Also significant is the finding that 71% of those polled believe the U.S. government knows more about UFOs than it has disclosed. Here is a summary of all findings related to the subject of UFOs and extraterrestrial life. The results are based on telephone interviews conducted September 3 through 5, 1996 with 1,000 U.S. adults aged 18 and up. On this basis, Gallup states with 95% confidence that the margin of sampling error is + or - 3 percentage points. * Question: Have you heard or read about UFOs? Yes: 87% No: 13% Though high, this number has steadily declined over the last four Gallup polls on UFOs. In 1990, 90% said yes; in 1978, 93% said yes; and in 1973, 95% said yes. * Question: Have you, yourself, ever seen anything you thought was a UFO? Yes: 12% No: 87% No opinion: 1% This number has varied only slightly over the years. In 1990, 14% said yes; in 1973, 11% said yes. * Question: In your opinion, are UFOs something real, or just people's imaginations? Real: 48% Imagination: 31% No opinion: 21% In 1990, 47% said real; while in 1978, 57% said real. * Question: Do you think that UFOs have ever visited the earth in some form, or not? Yes: 45% No: 39% No opinion: 16% This question has not been asked on previous polls. It obviously implies, though it does not specifically state, that "UFO" is equivalent to "extraterrestrial spacecraft." The previous question about the reality of UFOs does not necessarily carry the same implication. The next two questions were each asked of only half the sample, 500 people per question. The margin of error for these questions is + or - 5%. * Question: Do you think there are people somewhat like ourselves living on other planets in the universe, or not? Yes: 38% No: 44% No opinion: 18% In 1990, 46% said yes; while in 1978, 51% said yes. * Question: Do you think there is life of some form on other planets in the universe or not? Yes: 72% No: 19% No opinion: 9% This question has not been asked on previous polls. The final question was asked of the entire sample of 1,000 people. * Question: In your opinion, does the U.S. government know more about UFOs than they are telling us? Yes: 71% No: 19% No opinion: 10% This question has not been asked on previous Gallup polls. The very high affirmative seems to indicate a strong constituency that could be mobilized in support of an end to official UFO secrecy. In contrast to the numbers of people who believe UFOs are real (48%), belief in ghosts and various paranormal or metaphysical phenomena were mostly lower. For example: * Do you believe in channeling? Believe: 12% Not sure: 21% Don't believe: 64% * Do you believe in astrology? Believe: 25% Not sure: 22% Don't believe: 52% * Do you believe in ghosts? Believe: 30% Not sure: 19% Don't believe: 50% However, belief in the devil is higher, at 56%, than belief in UFOs; and belief in angels is much higher: 72%. __________________________________________________________ AUFORA News Update News & Information from the world of UFOlogy AUFORA Web: http://www.aufora.org/ AUFORA News: http://www.aufora.org/news/ AUFORA Discussion: http://www.aufora.org/discuss/ ********************************************************** TO SUBSCRIBE: Send email to: majordomo@spots.ab.ca with "subscribe aufora" in the body of the message. TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send email to: majordomo@spots.ab.ca with "unsubscribe aufora" in the body of the message. Subscribe / unsubscribe requests not done following the above instructions will BE IGNORED!!! ********************************************************** Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of AUFORA __________________________________________________________ Distributed by the Alberta UFO Research Association
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Kent Jeffrey and the Roswell Declaration From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 09:27:54 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 10:13:29 -0400 Subject: Kent Jeffrey and the Roswell Declaration I know that many were concerned that Kent's turnaround on the Roswell case would somehow affect the distribution of the Roswell Declarations that he had collected so I decided to ask him about them. He assured me that he felt an obligation to see that the Declarations were delivered as he had promised. While he is still on "the Dark Side" about the Roswell case, he believes that government refusal to release data which would answer the questions is still a worthwhile goal. So, the Declarations will be delivered as had been promised. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Where Does Kevin Randle REALLY Stand? From: TotlResrch@aol.com [Kal Korff] Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 05:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 14:32:53 -0400 Subject: Where Does Kevin Randle REALLY Stand? On page 228 of my new book, "The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want You to Know," I quote UFO and Roswell author Kevin Randle in an interview he gave on the subject of the Roswell UFO crash as saying: "If I (Kevin Randle) had to rely on the public record (in the Roswell case), I'd throw up. The evidence is not strong and it's not convincing." As I note in my new book, I was shocked to hear Randle say this because it has been HE AND DONALD SCHMITT (whom he has since disavowed) more than anyone, who have put into "the public record" this "evidence" that he now says would make him "throw up." In a recent posting, Kevin Randle has stated that he still thinks that "Roswell" involves the recovery of an alien spacecraft. Yet despite this, there is still this troublesome quote Randle is on record as having made only just recently about finding the Roswell "evidence" to not be "strong" or "compelling." Can you EXPLAIN this quote, Mr. Randle, and CLARIFY for the record WHERE you stand on "Roswell" and mention the NAMES of WHAT WITNESSES (and their tesimonies) that you feel are "credible" in this case?? And is it true, Mr. Randle, that you believe in the testimony and numerous tales of Frank Kaufmann? Looking forward to resolving this apparent discrepancy and for a clarification of your position, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Kal Korff ADMITS Kevin Randle is RIGHT!! From: TotlResrch@aol.com [Kal Korff] Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 04:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 14:32:30 -0400 Subject: Kal Korff ADMITS Kevin Randle is RIGHT!! Sometime ago back, I had made the comment that Major Jesse Marcel claimed that he had earned a degree in physics from Louisiana State University and that this wasn't true. I then stated that Major Marcel has lied about his background to various UFO researchers such as Stanton Friedman, who still claims that Marcel was a "credible" witness. In response to my claim, Roswell researcher Kevin Randle then responded that this was not true, and that I was wrong. Well, Kevin Randle is correct, I did indeed MAKE A MISTAKE in this data regarding Jesse Marcel and I apologize!! Instead of Marcel lying about having earned a degree in physics from LSU, as I incorrectly stated, it was George Washington University in Washington D.C. where Marcel claimed he had earned this degree. However, what Kevin Randle (and others) conveniently neglect to mention is that Major Marcel still LIED about this fact. If one checks with George Washington University like Robert Todd and I have done, one will find that there is no record of Major Jesse Marcel ever having attended that university -- let alone having earned a "degree" in the field of Physics. I apologize for mixing up Marcel's false claims about his time spent at LSU with his other false claim about having earned a degree in physics. Trying to set the record straight on Major Marcel's numerous confabulations is hard enough as is without my accidentally mixing up the names of the schools which only compounding the difficulty of this process. At least in my new book on Roswell I did NOT make this mistake, and cite all of the known false claims Major Marcel is undeniably guilty of making, on pages 60-68. The list is quite extensive. I hope this Email clarifies and corrects the above misunderstanding. Sincerely, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files From: TotlResrch@aol.com [Kal Korff] Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 05:05:36 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 14:32:43 -0400 Subject: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files Recently, several UFO researchers have professed to have copies of Major Marcel's military files. While there is no doubt that this material is making the rounds via the photocopy circuit, one must be CAREFUL which set of these records one possesses. For example, I received from Bob Todd, the ENTIRE nearly 200 page set of files that constitute Marcel's military records. This is nearly ALL his files, save his medical records. I also received another set of the SAME material from another source. By comparison, for a long time now, a SUB-SET of this material consisting of some 8-11 pages has been widely circulated and if there are any of you out there who are making grand pronouncements about Marcel's "truthfulness" from this sparse, incomplete material, you need to know that it is only the COMPLETE SET that tells the FULL story!! I would be interested in knowing from Kevin Randle and others who have posted comments about this topic for example, WHICH set of records they are citing in their "glowing" remarks about Major Marcel. Is it the complete set, or this subset of records? Until those who have only the subset of Marcel's records have the rest of the nearly 200 additional pages, their "comments" cannot be taken seriously. The truth is Major Marcel did indeed make false claims about numerous things, including about being a "pilot," which he was not. Kevin Randle is wrong on this point and I prove this in my new book on Roswell which discusses Marcel's numerous false claims over the course of 8 pages. Looking forward to resolving this discrepancy, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Conversations with James Oberg - Part 1 From: Karel Bagchus <karel@worldonline.nl> Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 13:42:00 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 14:21:46 -0400 Subject: Conversations with James Oberg - Part 1 Hi, On the 24th of april I responded to a message in the alt.paranet.ufo newsgroup from someone that wanted to see the sts-48 footage. I wrote in return that the KUFOR sit might be of interest to him. I was surprised to see that I recieved an e-mail from James Oberg, with just one line: "What do you claim it shows?". Here I have reconstructed the total conversation from different e-mails. I formatted it in an intervieu-style conversation by Different topics. I'm sending them out in different parts. You should note that all these topicis where discussed at the same time. I have Jim's explicit permission to publish any e-mail conversation with him. In this part we talk about Astronauts and UFO's ---------------------------------------------------------------------- James: What do you claim it shows? Karel: That depends on what video clip you are referring to. Most of the claming is done by the individuals who filmed the UFO's. Please note that in my opinion, an UFO doesn't have to relate to aliens or so. It just means it's not identified yet. It can be any experimental plane too. As of the things filmed by space shuttle missions STS-48 and STS-80, yes I do claim that UFO's where being recorded, and that the are not ice crystals like the NASA endorsed theory. James: So in those cases, the individuals who filmed the UFOs are NOT making the claims.... Karel: That's true, yes. James: Isn't that true of ALL the "astronaut" cases? Karel: No, just to name a few; Donald Slayton, Eugene Cernan and Gordon Cooper have all been very explicit about UFO's. James: Slayton and Cooper testified about encounters while they were military pilots; I haven't heard of any actual encounters by Cernan. None was in space. Karel: In July 1960 Cooper was interviewed by Yvonne Durfield ; "I don't take UFO's seriously. I would be very skeptical." In March 1978 Cooper stated to the National Enquirer ; "UFO's are definately real" It is interesting that his two flights into space occurred between the dates of the two interviews. The statement by Donald Slayton is indeed of the period that he was a military pilot. James: Even Gordon Cooper (and Ed Mitchell) maintain that the "space UFO" stories associated with astronauts are spurious. . . . so do you believe them? Karel: I'm not sure what the meaning of "spurious" is (remember that I'm Dutch). James: Sorry -- you're very smooth use of English makes it easy to forget. I meant merely to say, "not authentic", "false". Karel: Allright, if you tell me which stories about UFO's astronauts they say are spurious, and the source you are quoting, than I would have no reason not to believe them, unless some other astronaut says something different ofcourse. James: They both assert that only McDivitt's report was even remotely related to UFOs. All other stories (through the time they were associated with NASA, that is early 1970s) that they've heard about, they say are not authentic. Karel: I'd really like to know what your source is regarding this statement by Cooper. Do you maybe have an address of Cooper for me ? I'd like to ask him exactly what stories he is talking about becouse I'm not sure what he has heard, and what not. - end of this topic- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | | | Karel Bagchus karel@worldonline.nl | | | | World Online bv. tel. (+31) 035 - 699 87 00 | | Gooimeer 1D fax (+31) 035 - 695 11 99 | | Postbus 5222 | | 1410 AE Naarden http://www.worldonline.nl | | the Netherlands | | | +-------------------------------------------------------------+
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Conversations with James Oberg - Part 4 From: Karel Bagchus <karel@worldonline.nl> Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 13:42:04 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 14:22:39 -0400 Subject: Conversations with James Oberg - Part 4 Hi, On the 24th of april I responded to a message in the alt.paranet.ufo newsgroup from someone that wanted to see the sts-48 footage. I wrote in return that the KUFOR sit might be of interest to him. I was surprised to see that I recieved an e-mail from James Oberg, with just one line: "What do you claim it shows?". Here I have reconstructed the total conversation from different e-mails. I formatted it in an intervieu-style conversation by Different topics. I'm sending them out in different parts. You should note that all these topicis where discussed at the same time. I have Jim's explicit permission to publish any e-mail conversation with him. In this part we talk about Maurice Chatelain. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Karel: There's actually another question I'd like to ask you. At the UFO updates we had a discussion about Maurice Chatelain. It was mentioned that he worked at Nasa as "head of communications". Well, I guess you know the story. So I posted a mail about your position to this; "when James Oberg contacted Chatelain's employers he learned that Chatelain was no longer employed by them when Apollo 11 landed on the moon. If he was no longer an employee of a NASA sub-contractor then he could not have been present in any so-called "secret room" And Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com> wrote a reply; "James Oberg has made many claims regarding Maurice Chatelain. Do you have any primary information e.g. dated verifiable documents from Chatelain's employer or are you just echoing these old Oberg "truths". Those familiar with some of the James Oberg / Brian Zeiler threads in the Usenet group alt.paranet.ufo may be aware that several times Oberg came up short in substantiating his claims." I'm curious to what you have to say about that. James: Regarding Chatelain, there is no evidence he ever was the "Chief of NASA communications". Nobody has offered any such evidence except his own claims. Karel: Did he ever provide some sort of contract that shows that he did work as Chief of NASA communications ? I guess everybody that works somewhere gets a contract that shows the name of his employer and the position tha's he's going to fullfill. James: I described how I wrote to the company which had employed him and received an official reply about the dates of his employment. Anybody could do this -- there is no secret data bank. To the best of my knowledge, nobody else has even tried to do this. Karel: What company was that, and what where the dates of his employment ? I'm also curious why NASA works with contractors that mutch. James: Many years ago (mid-1970s, when his first book came out about "Our ancestors Came from Outer Space"), I called the group in Downey, California, where he had worked a decade before, and was told by his former co-workers that he was told to leave after he spent more time at the office on a private restaurant business than on his assigned tasks. Karel: Is the "group" you mention the Company that Chatelain says contracted him to work for NASA in the period that he wass supposedly chief of com's ? Can you tell me at least the name of the group that you contacted ? James: I have the names of the people I talked to, they are almost certainly all retired and possibly even dead by now, but it was a private conversation which was candid based on promise of anonymity. There's nothing unusual or improper about that. Karel: I'm not really convinced when you refer to anonimous people, becouse then there is only your word on that, but no way to verify your story. That put's you into the same position as many so called UFOlogist's, that claim things on the basis of anonymous witnesses. James: So regarding Chatelain, why should any rationale person even wonder about whether he's a self-serving hoaxer, or not, given the level of "evidence" available to back him up (that is, none). Karel: I'm just trying to find that out Jim. Oh, by the way, did you ever contacted Chatelain about this ? James: I sent two letters, both unanswered. You only have my word for that. The contractor he worked for was North American Aviation in Downey, California, near LA. It was bought by Rockwell 25 years ago, then recently was sold by Rockwell to Boeing. I talked to people in the spacecraft radio systems group, which I doubt has even existed now for 10-15 years. Karel: Is that the same contractor that Chatelain claimes he worked for as Chief of Comm's ? Sorry to be such a picker, but I have to have my facts straight when I contact Chatelaines publisher (or Chatelaine). James: This is the only Apollo-related employer he ever worked for. I do not know if Chatelain himself ever said he was "Chief of Communications". Writers who quoted him referred to him with that phrase, but they often get so much else wrong, it could have started with one UFO writers misunderstanding or lie, and then spread out. James: I have heard that he has died. Do you have any information about this? Perhaps you could inquire at his publisher in France. Karel: I don't know. I'll write to some people in France, and see if I can get a hold of an address or telephone number of the publisher. +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | | | Karel Bagchus karel@worldonline.nl | | | | World Online bv. tel. (+31) 035 - 699 87 00 | | Gooimeer 1D fax (+31) 035 - 695 11 99 | | Postbus 5222 | | 1410 AE Naarden http://www.worldonline.nl | | the Netherlands | | | +-------------------------------------------------------------+
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Conversations with James Oberg - Part 2 From: Karel Bagchus <karel@worldonline.nl> Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 13:42:01 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 14:22:14 -0400 Subject: Conversations with James Oberg - Part 2 Hi, On the 24th of april I responded to a message in the alt.paranet.ufo newsgroup from someone that wanted to see the sts-48 footage. I wrote in return that the KUFOR sit might be of interest to him. I was surprised to see that I recieved an e-mail from James Oberg, with just one line: "What do you claim it shows?". Here I have reconstructed the total conversation from different e-mails. I formatted it in an intervieu-style conversation by Different topics. I'm sending them out in different parts. You should note that all these topicis where discussed at the same time. I have Jim's explicit permission to publish any e-mail conversation with him. In this part we talk about the STS-48 Video. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- James: The claim of "space junk" (not necessarily 'ice crystals') is one endorsed by the actual witnesses. And "ice crystals" appears to be a sloppy misrepresentation -- can you actually quote a NASA statement which uses that phrase, or is a term you have made up to make it sound silly? Karel: No. Vince DiPietro's statement mentions ice crystals.... James: Vince has made many many statements. Can you please direct me to the statement in question. I am being obsessive about this because "ice particles" is indeed a commonly offered explanation, and is often true, ..... Karel: I'm not sure what his exact statement was. A statement by MUFON (don't know who either) said: "Vince DiPietro's report to FUFOR (the Fund For UFO Research) provided the descriptions of events for which video was unavailable to HUFON Report. Interestingly, DiPietro, a NASA employee at the Goddard Space Flight Center now publicly endorses the "ice crystal" explanation." Do you have Vince's e-mail address ? I would like to ask him directly about it. The NASA footage was on the Dutch news in 1991. I remenber that they too said that the explanation from NASA was that the "things" where ice crystals. I think that's odd becouse Donald Ratsch writes about it: "NASA claims the flash is from an atitude adjuster rocket to correct the course of the shuttle. If this is so then why doesn't the horizon change at the flash? They also claim that the object making the extreme course change is urine just flushed from a waste water dump, and it appeared to move because of the atitude adjuster rocket. If thats the case then why can you hear the Astronauts talking about the waste dump, after the footage was shot." James: but the word "crystals" has additional implications which may not be justified. Karel: I'm not sure what you mean.... can you explain that ? James: I've found an old note of mine where I used the phrase ice crystals too. So we all got careless. A crystal is a form of water which freezes directly out of vapor. The water ice we see around the Orbiter sometimes does come out as hot vapor (from the flash evaporator, for example) so I suppose it could form real ice crystals, if very small. Most of the water, however, leaks out or is expelled from valves as liquid water, and freezes around the rims of the holes, later breaking loose. It is definitely not crystalline, it's what's called "amorphous" (shapeless) ice. Karel: OK, that clarifies the difference. When dumping water through the holes, what is the approx. percentage that freeses around the rim of the holes, and is frosen loosely in space ? I guess not all water freezes to the rim of the holes. [James went on without answering this question] James: Donald Ratsch writes about it: "NASA claims the flash is from an atitude adjuster rocket to correct the course of the shuttle. If this is so then why doesn't the horizon change at the flash" He's been told again and again but he just doesn't learn: the jet which fired was a fine tuning engine with a resulting angular rate of about 0.05 degrees per second, much too small to be visually detectable. That's exactly what the telemetry records -- which Ratsch never asked nasa for -- show. Ratsch: "They also claim that the object making the extreme course change is urine" I don't know where he says nasa said that. several sources were suggested. And ice comes off the rim of the valve long after a venting of the tanks -- sometimes hours later. Ratsch: "just flushed from a waste water dump, and it appeared to move because of the atitude adjuster rocket. If thats the case then why can you hear the Astronauts talking about the waste dump, after the footage was shot." Easy: the ice didn't have to come from the main dump, it could have been a leftover of the previous dump. Karel: Do you know the exact time the truster was fired and to what purpose ? Can you tell me at what position that particular tuning engine is connected to the shuttle, and in what direction it was fired ? Since there is no atmosphere in space, what happens with the exaust emissions when it is released in space ? Does it expand ? and can you give an estimate of the kenetic energy resulting from both the firing of the truster and the expansion of the emissions ? I've looked at the video of the launch of th Apollo 11. When the first stage is disconnected, a lot of ice particles are breaking off too. The difference with the way the ice particles are moving away is that in this video, the particles are tumbling and rotating in circular waves. I don't see that kind of movement in the STS-48 video, where the supposed particles are moving in straight lines and making sharp turns. Also, becouse there is no atmosphere to stop the shuttle from rotation by means of friction, wouldn't the horizon of earth be rotated 3.0 degrees, after 60 seconds, about the duration of the "event" ? I guess that would be visible then. I'll have to excuse myselve for my English again, but what is a telemetry record ? Since they where talking about doing a waterdump, I guess that happens in coordination with CapCom. Can you find out at what date and time was the previous waterdump ? [I didn't get a reply on these questions. So I wrote him another e-mail:] Karel: There still are a couple of questions to which you didn't reply, and I would like to ask them again. When dumping water through the holes, what is the approx. percentage that freeses around the rim of the holes, and is frosen loosely in space ? I guess not all water freezes to the rim of the holes. Do you know the exact time the truster was fired and to what purpose ? Can you tell me at what position that particular tuning truster is connected to the shuttle, and if it is able to rotate in what direction it was fired ? Becouse there is no atmosphere to slow down or stop the shuttle from rotation by means of friction, wouldn't the horizon of earth be rotated 3.0 degrees, after 60 seconds, about the duration of the "event" ? I guess that would be visible then. Or did another truster fire to stop the rotation ? The difference with the way the ice particles are moving away in the Apollo 11 video is that in that video, the particles are tumbling and rotating in circular waves. I don't see that kind of movement in the STS-48 video, where the supposed particles are moving in straight lines and making sharp turns. Can you explain that ? Since they where talking about doing a waterdump, I guess that happens in coordination with CapCom. What date and time was the previous waterdump ? [To which he replied:] James: Well, I'm really out of time for now, but I hope you find your answers somewhere out there on the 'net. [Final note; I think that is a ~very~ "convenient" answer from him. Either he has no time (which I doubt, becouse he usually e-mailed be back within an hour), doesn't know the answer to these questions, or worse; answering these questions would show that the "Ice Particle" theory dousn't hold it's ground.] +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | | | Karel Bagchus karel@worldonline.nl | | | | World Online bv. tel. (+31) 035 - 699 87 00 | | Gooimeer 1D fax (+31) 035 - 695 11 99 | | Postbus 5222 | | 1410 AE Naarden http://www.worldonline.nl | | the Netherlands | | | +-------------------------------------------------------------+
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Conversations with James Oberg - Part 3 From: Karel Bagchus <karel@worldonline.nl> Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 13:42:02 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 14:22:25 -0400 Subject: Conversations with James Oberg - Part 3 Hi, On the 24th of april I responded to a message in the alt.paranet.ufo newsgroup from someone that wanted to see the sts-48 footage. I wrote in return that the KUFOR sit might be of interest to him. I was surprised to see that I recieved an e-mail from James Oberg, with just one line: "What do you claim it shows?". Here I have reconstructed the total conversation from different e-mails. I formatted it in an intervieu-style conversation by Different topics. I'm sending them out in different parts. You should note that all these topicis where discussed at the same time. I have Jim's explicit permission to publish any e-mail conversation with him. In this part we talk about NASA employment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Karel: So, do you still work for NASA ? James: I've spent 22 years in Mission Control work on the space shuttle, as a contractor to NASA, but never exactly a NASA employee. Karel: Could you please tell me what the chain of command is at Mission Control ? I'm also interested in what you did at Mission Control. James: The "Flight Director" is in charge of all flight operations and makes all command decisions, which are relayed to the crew by the "Capcom". The "FD" has a team of about a dozen specialists in the "front room" at Mission Control. I was one of these, the "Rendezvous Guidance and Procedures Officer", or RGPO (pronounced "Rendezvous Gee-Po"), for missions involving complicated approach and departure trajectories with other satellites. Earlier, I was involved with the OMS/RCS propulsion system and was the "Prop Consumables" book-keeper on console, in a "back room" supporting one of the dozen "front room" positions, for the launch of the very first shuttle, STS-1, on April 12, 1981. Prior to that I supported the flight control activities of the Data Processing System (DPS) operator during the 1977 glide tests of 'Enterprise'. Right now I am designing the launch and rendezvous profile for the very first space station assembly mission, and will probably have a highly responsible operational duty when it actually occurs sometime in mid-1998 (latest schedule). Karel: Is the "front room" what they normally show on tv when they show footage of Mission Control ? Karel: How many people are actually involved (exept mechanics) during a Space Shuttle flight ? I've looked through all mission press-kits for the space shuttle missions from mission STS-26 through mission STS-83r (exept missions 27, 28, 33, 36 and 38, for which there wasn't a press kit avalable). Although they contain detailed information about the people involved with Mission Control, your name isn't mentioned anywhere. Can you explain why ? James: What does STS-32 say for RGPO (I was lead RGPO for the LDEF retrieve)? That was the first time there was a formal one on a non-classified mission, it took the PAO a while to catch on. I should be listed for STS-37 and STS-48 as well, and I took turns in back room support for several of these too. Karel: Nope, the only references to LDEF in the STS-32 press-kit are; E. Burton Lightner LDEF Project Manager, William H. Kinard LDEF Chief Scientist. No mention whatsoever about RGPO. Sorry, but none of the press-kits mention your name anywhere. That makes me wonder.... if there would be an event that involves National Security, would you be notified of that, and to what extend would your breefing go ? James: Well, just WHO is listed under MCC teams? Usually there was a JSC press release with several pages of names of the specialists, for all three shifts. Is that what you were looking at? Karel: I guess not huh ? I took the press-kits off of http://www.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missions/ . I'm not aware of any other press kits. But can you answer this question for me: if there would be an event that involves National Security, would you be notified of that, and to what extend would your breefing go ? in other words, if an unknown space ship would be encountered, what whoud you know about it ? James: When there were Pentagon payloads that were classified 'Secret' (never anything higher), there were restrainsts on discussing the characteristics of the vehicles and their orbits. As far as some external agency coming in, in response to some real time event, and declaring 'national security', I don't even know how that would be accomplished since there no longer are any security safeguards from the 'Secret' days -- they all have been dismantled and removed. I suppose of the TV from the shuttle showed flaming bodies, or pieces of bodies, or an insane raving astronaut, the Public Affairs Officer would interrupt the transmission, but again, to the best of my knowledge (and I know most of the PAO operators who have been in the 'front room' -- that has never happened. I don't think any exterior agency has any authority over MCC operations, it certainly is not documented in the manuals we use for reference. I know there are a lot of rumors about NSA review and CIA control and so forth but I've never seen the tiniest hint -- or any other part -- of that kind of thing. +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | | | Karel Bagchus karel@worldonline.nl | | | | World Online bv. tel. (+31) 035 - 699 87 00 | | Gooimeer 1D fax (+31) 035 - 695 11 99 | | Postbus 5222 | | 1410 AE Naarden http://www.worldonline.nl | | the Netherlands | | | +-------------------------------------------------------------+
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Kal K. Korff's UFO Sighting - The DETAILS! From: TotlResrch@aol.com [Kal Korff] Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 06:08:58 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 14:33:02 -0400 Subject: Kal K. Korff's UFO Sighting - The DETAILS! Recently, several of you have asked me about my own "UFO" sighting which I mentioned having had many years ago. In particular, Gary Alevy asked me for this information as well, so I hope Mr. Alevy that this posting provides you with enough information. If anyone has any more questions about my encounter, please feel free to contact me, but it may take me a few days to get back to you. My Sighting of a "UFO" On February 16, 1981, just after, ironically, I finished putting the final touches on my original expose of the Eduard "Billy" Meier hoax, I was on my way home with two friends of mine at the time, Mr. and Mrs. Al and Barbara Reed. The time was about 11:45PM and because of the tremendous amount of work my original expose of the Meier case had taken the Reeds and I to put together, the three of us were sick and tired of the UFO subject and very much wanted a break from it. Since I knew that my book would not be published and on the market until May of that year, I looked forward to a few months respite from the field of UFOlogy and its dreaded politics. I also knew that exposing the Meier case as a fraud would not endear me to certain individuals and destroy my then-friendship with Wendelle Stevens. At any rate, while driving home, the thee of us saw off to our left in the sky at aproximately a 40 degree angle, what Mrs. Reed called a "funny looking" airplane. Immediately, Al and I both said at that same time "That's no airplane" and yelled "pull over." This we did, and the three of us got out of the car to observe the object. The object I saw was a bright, red light with a definite metallic or "spherical" surface reflection behind it. It was about the angular size of the tip or head of a wooden stick match held at arm's length. Its' altitude was above the horizon, yet below the cloud cover and other air traffic. I observed it on highway 237 in California (in the San Francisco Bay Area region between the towns of Santa Clara and Milpitas) and it was just hovering there with no motion or movement for as long as 4 minutes. The direction I observed the object was Northwest, and the sky was pretty illuminated in the direction of the object due to the its' location. After observing an airplane (a regular jet airliner) pass above and right by the object, (though well above it), after the plane left the object it suddenly for a split second got momentarily brighter and separated into TWO objects! In observing this, it was as if a piece of it separated from itself, and pulled AWAY from the primary object towards the left. For a brief moment, there were TWO objects now (looking much like a cell dividing into two under a microscope!) and this second object was about half the size and half the brightness of the primary object. As the two "objects" separated from one another, the second object flew away and within a few seconds literally DISAPPEARED right in front of our eyes! It was as if it had "cloaked" and dissolved, just like a Romulan or Klingon spaceship does in the science fiction series Star Trek! We couldn't believe this. After this second object dissolved out the larger, primary one then started moving and headed straight East towards the mountains of the Bay Area over the city of Milpitas and southern Fremont. Immediately, the three of us got into the car and sped very fast (luckily there were no police with radar guns that night, as usual) in order to try and follow the object. Lucky for us, Highway 237 goes West to East, so we were able to eventually catch up with the object. I never took my eyes off it up to this point. However, the object soon slowed down again and started heading north. We were also coming to the end of highway 237 by this time and then headed north on highway 880 (formerly known as the Nimitz freeway) and caught up to the object once again. This time, it had STOPPED and hovered in mid air, and we were directly UNDER IT at this point and pulled over to the side of the freeway where we got out of our car and the three of us watched it where it hovered directly above our heads. I tried flagging down some cars but in typical California style, no one would stop. I then returned to observing the object. It sat there motionless for a minute or so, and then executed 8 PERFECT tight circle maneuvers in succession before it stopped once again and rose STRAIGHT UP above the cloud cover where we lost it for good. The total sighting lasted about 11 minutes, maybe 15, depending on whose wristwatch you believe. In my years since this sighting, where i have become quite familiar with almost everything flying and even have worked on the "Star Wars" program and in particular remote controlled drones, I have never seen anything like this and know of no craft the U.S. has today that can explain what it saw. The "cloaking" of the object (it would have still been visible to us if it had merely tunred off its lights), the flight characteristics and its "dividing into two pieces" still have me baffled to this day. The next night, i was channel surfing, and Dr. Richard F. Haines and Dr. Andrew Grotowski were shown on the news out at night looking for a "UFO" which divided into two pieces, was red in color, and behaved the same way the object the Reeds and I saw. Over the course of the next six weeks, there were more than 65 separate reports of this same object seen in both the day and nighttime. The patterns of behavior were remarkably consistent: after "separating" itself, the secondary object would "dissolve" and the primary object would take off at a high rate of speed , stop and however, and the fly away. Many UFO researchers from the Bay Area chapter of MUFON went out to investigate these sightings and I did as well. I made a point to investigate both the night and daytime reports, but of course never told any of the witnesses I interviewed that I had seen the thing as well. What was fascinating about this mini UFO "wave" was the extreme consistency of reports. Later, when I was granted a security clearance and assigned to the Star Wars project, I did extensive searches for any U.S.-made device that might account for what I saw. I never found anything, for what it's worth. Well, that's it for now...I will be happy to answer any questions anyone might have. As I kept looking at the object, I remember thinking "Wow, if this is REALLY from another planet, then we (humanity) are indeed very insignificant in this grand scale of things." I felt like an ant trying to comprehend nuclear physics!! Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Re: Adamski From: bhamilto@pcshs.com Date: Tue, 06 May 97 08:05:54 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 14:29:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Adamski >Date: 05 May 97 14:24:42 EDT >From: Paul Fuller <100611.1013@CompuServe.COM> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Adamski >I've been very interested reading the threads on this List >concerning George Adamski. Honestly folks I thought that this >one had been put to bed decades ago !! I never thought it had been put to bed and I will never be one to do so because I saw a craft that resembled the one in his photos back in 1957. Many hundreds of people have. Also Adamski revealed little details that abductees have picked up on since then, but Adamski preceeded these people's stories by many years. I am also one of the few to have met three of the six witnesses and talked to them at some length and was most impressed by the testimony of Alice Wells. I prefer to be open-minded and objective. There is no conflict there. I am still of the opinion that something happened at Desert Center on Nov. 20, 1952, but I wasn't there either. Bill Hamilton AZ Dir SKYWATCH INT'L Home e-mail: billh46088@aol.com Work e-mail: bhamilto@pcshs.com website: http://members.aol.com/billh46088/newhome.htm "It is easier to ridicule than investigate, but not as profitable" - Alan Search for other documents from or mentioning: bhamilto | 100611.1013 |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: bhamilto@pcshs.com Date: Tue, 06 May 97 07:59:10 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 14:28:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? Date: 05 May 97 08:58:48 EDT From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 13:10:52 -0700 (PDT) >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >Jim, >It seems to me that the proper question is: Are contactees ever told >the truth? >I am skeptical of most contactee stories in the sense that I think it >is not necessarily true that they are being contacted/abducted by ETs. I find the above is a prevalent belief. I do not know what the basis of such a belief is, but it seems that skepticism is always the first attitude used in approaching this subject (except by a few) and it is not unwarranted. On the other hand, I am one one of the few around who knew the early-day contactees like most of the critics do not and witnessed my first UFOs following their advice or in their presence. I have no trouble with the concept of an ET origin or ED (extradimensional) origin, but how do you frame a set of criteria to test the hypothesis. After 44 years of research I find I am encountering many researchers who have been in this just a few years and have already leaped to conclusions of their own - why so hasty? It seems like most of you on this List are bent on debate. How many are pursuing the evidence? We are not all going to agree on the various facets of this subject just as no scientist seems to agree with his peers as the search for knowledge is fiercely competitive in our species. Remember that lies are a form of communication that is somewhat common in our society and may be common in other societies. If a woman is married to a man who is doing top secret work, and she whispers sweet nothings to him one night begging to know what it is he really does at the office, does he lie to her? Why? One of the primary reasons for official "lies" has always been security. I have often wondered what we do in a world without lies...I guess I'll have to go the Jim Carrey movie to find out. Sincerely, Bill Hamilton AZ Dir SKYWATCH INT'L Home e-mail: billh46088@aol.com Work e-mail: bhamilto@pcshs.com website: http://members.aol.com/billh46088/newhome.htm "It is easier to ridicule than investigate, but not as profitable" - Alan Search for other documents from or mentioning: bhamilto | 76750.2717 |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 6 'Row of Lights' From: bhamilto@pcshs.com Date: Tue, 06 May 97 08:22:27 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 14:31:03 -0400 Subject: 'Row of Lights' ROW OF LIGHTS Last night my wife, Pamela, and I went outside to watch for the Eta-Aquarid meteor shower (after the showing of Part 2 of "Invasion") at about 10:15. Earlier I had gone out with my new Orion telescope to look at Hale-Bopp still visible in the NW sky from my location in NE Phoenix (Paradise Valley). At 10:30 I had my chair turned to the NW to look for meteors when I spotted something eerie at about 75 degrees elevation, 270 degrees azimuth west of Mars: a row of 6 softly glowing objects traveling at about jet speed on a vector from south to north without sound. This row of objects (or lights on one object) was about 3X the length of an airliner at intermediate altitudes (5,000 - 10,000 feet) traveling silently without strobes or running lights. That makes the row about 350 to 400 feet in length. This row pivoted like a compass needle and proceeded on a NW trajectory before leaving our sight. The duration of the sighting was about 5 to 7 seconds. Pamela saw the same sight as I pointed and yelled. The skies are still active in Arizona! Sincerely, Bill Hamilton AZ Dir SKYWATCH INT'L Home e-mail: billh46088@aol.com Work e-mail: bhamilto@pcshs.com website: http://members.aol.com/billh46088/newhome.htm "It is easier to ridicule than investigate, but not as profitable" - Alan
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 'The Randle Report' and Kevin Randle's opinions From: KRandle993@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 17:59:59 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 11:26:56 -0400 Subject: 'The Randle Report' and Kevin Randle's opinions Since it seems that there are people out there who love to take things out of context, and suggest things that aren't really true, why not take a look at THE RANDLE REPORT. You'll find the names of witnesses I find credible, some of those that I don't, and my opinion on a whole host UFO cases. Remember, however, that these are my opinions based on the information I have reviewed. So, if I find the public record on the Roswell case to be lacking, if I find that the International UFO Museum to have become the worst adversary in the Roswell case, then that in no way suggests that I believe that the Roswell case wasn't the crash of an alien spacecraft. For those who want to know what I believe, then read MY book and not someone else's opinion. And, if Kal Forff really suggested that I was a career military officer I would like to know where he got that impression and what relevance that it has. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 06 May 97 17:13:18 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 11:05:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:04:46 -0500 (CDT) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell Dennis, Let me make it clear that I have not threatend to sue anyone, and have no intention of doing so. Ray Santilli is his own man, and if he decides to sue someone, that is up to him. The cameraman claims copyright to the film because he says it was abandoned by the US Govt. Copyright attorneys have told me this is a sound argument. Furthermore, for the US GOvt to claim copyright, they would have to acknowledge the film as the real thing. I don't see that as likely. In the absence of any claim to copyright by the US Govt, the copyright will remain with the cameraman, or with anyone he transfers it to. But, regardless of this, Ray has every right to claim copyright on still images from the footage since his company bought and now owns the footage, and these stills are derivatives from that footage. That is a different issue. The cameraman interview is a totally different issue, again, since that is clearly copyrighted material, and no one can contest this on any grounds. Ray is in Spain at present on a business trip, but I did receive a communication from him today and he indicated that he would pursue this matter if the Korff book indeed contains still images used without authorization. Since I have not yet seen the book, I can not comment on what images it contains. That's where the matter stands. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 18:20:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 11:31:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >From: bhamilto@pcshs.com >Date: Tue, 06 May 97 07:59:10 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, updates@globalserve.net >Date: 05 May 97 08:58:48 EDT >From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 13:10:52 -0700 (PDT) >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>Jim, >>It seems to me that the proper question is: Are contactees ever told >>the truth? >>I am skeptical of most contactee stories in the sense that I think it >>is not necessarily true that they are being contacted/abducted by ETs. Bill Hamilton responds, >On the other hand, I am one one of the few around who knew the early-day >contactees like most of the critics do not and witnessed my first UFOs >following their advice or in their presence. I have no trouble with the >concept of an ET origin or ED (extradimensional) origin, but how do you >frame a set of criteria to test the hypothesis. After 44 years of >research I find I am encountering many researchers who have been in this >just a few years and have already leaped to conclusions of their own - >why so hasty? One of the most difficult things confronting both researchers and contactees, is having to wade though all of the 'dogma' that has formed around the subject. The simple truth is, that we don't know 'what's' going on, but we know for sure that 'something' is. At some point an effort has to be made for all of us to unify as a group and begin deciding on a systematic approach to the problem that can deliver answers. Ala "Project 1947" where some good people have put their heads together and are focusing on a single objective. From what I have seen, energies are scattered and unfocused in the UFO community at large, and the ones that _are_ involved (especially on the net) feed on each other like crash survivors on an isolated mountain top! Ooooh yum! Who we gonna eat next! <G> Until actual steps are taken by 'us' to unify as a group and pool common resources, all we're going to get is more of this cinema verite Fellini flick called "Ufology". I for one will not weep for its demise. I can't wait to see it all replaced by something saner and more coherent, focused, and united in effort. I only hope that ufology (as it exists today) is not a vampire like 'Disco' that rises from the grave occasionally to strike fear and mortal dread into the hearts of all warm blooded beings. >It seems like most of you on this List are bent on debate. How >many are pursuing the evidence? There are lots of good guys on this list Bill. Unsung (local heros) like Jerry Cohen, and Rebecca Shatte to mention but two of many. And then there are those who enjoy engaging in what can only be classified as a form of intellectual masturbation. They are alot like the 'chatter' you have to get through when you're meditating before you reach the Silence! <G> >We are not all going to agree on the various facets of this subject just >>as no scientist seems to agree with his peers as the search for knowledge >>is fiercely competitive in our species. One of the things that make us great! As is our ability to rise together in concerted effort. We put men on the Moon! >I have often wondered what we'd do in a world without lies... Tell each other the truth amigo! _None of us_ would have many friends, but the few we would have, would be true ones. The only ones who would suffer would be those with something to hide. I think I could live in a world where you don't have to keep an incessant watch out for incoming cowpies! <G> John Velez * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** * Search for other documents from or mentioning: jvif | bhamilto |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Open Message to Kal Korff & Michael Hesemann From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 12:12:07 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 12:12:07 -0400 Subject: Open Message to Kal Korff & Michael Hesemann To: Kal Korff & Michael Hesemann From: Errol Bruce-Knapp, Moderator UFO UpDates - Toronto Gentlemen, Your messages to this List were, in the beginning, interesting, informative and most amusing. The threads, however, have become personal in nature and obviously have not escaped the attention of other UpDates subscribers. I'd like to draw your attention to the second pair of lines in the 'tag' at the bottom of each message that appears on this List: > An E-Mail Subscription Service for the Study of > UFO Related Phenomena That's 'UFO Related Phenomena' - not UFO Researcher/Author personality-related phenomena. If you cannot find a way to publicly deal with one another in a more palatable manner please take your feud to personal/direct/one-on-one e-mail. Errol Bruce-Knapp Moderator _______________________________________________ UFO UpDates - Toronto - updates@globalserve.net Operated by Errol Bruce-Knapp - ++ 416-696-0145 An E-Mail Subscription Service for the Study of UFO Related Phenomena UFO UpDates Instant Archive now available at http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates MUFON Ontario's Home Page: http://auraland.com/mufon/index.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Re: Where Does Kevin Randle REALLY Stand? From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 16:14:26 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 11:23:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Where Does Kevin Randle REALLY Stand? >From: TotlResrch@aol.com [Kal Korff] >Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 05:16:25 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Where Does Kevin Randle REALLY Stand? >On page 228 of my new book, "The Roswell UFO Crash: >What They Don't Want You to Know," I quote UFO and >Roswell author Kevin Randle in an interview he >gave on the subject of the Roswell UFO crash as saying: >"If I (Kevin Randle) had to rely on the public record >(in the Roswell case), I'd throw up. The evidence is >not strong and it's not convincing." I said the public record meaning that available in various public arenas including the Air Force files and other government files. That evidence is not convincing. That is what I meant and nothing more. >In a recent posting, Kevin Randle has stated that he still thinks that >"Roswell" involves the recovery of an alien spacecraft. Yet despite this, >there is still this troublesome quote Randle is on record as having made >only just recently about finding the Roswell "evidence" to not be "strong" >or "compelling." So now honesty is becoming troublesome. >Can you EXPLAIN this quote, Mr. Randle, and CLARIFY for the record WHERE >you stand on "Roswell" and mention the NAMES of WHAT WITNESSES (and their >tesimonies) that you feel are "credible" in this case?? See above. And it means that I was the one who interviewed Dr. Curry Holden, Dr. C. Bertrand Schultz, Major Edwin Easley, Major Patrick Saunders, and other members of the 509th Bomb Group, Bill Brazel who added some compelling testimony to the mix. I don't view that as part of the PUBLIC record. So, if I was coming at this new and I hadn't heard what these people, among many others, I wouldn't find the public records persuasive. >And is it true, Mr. Randle, that you believe in the testimony and numerous >tales of Frank Kaufmann? Yes because I've seen the documentation. And I am, unfortunately responsible for some of the mistaken notions about Frank. For example, he mentioned using a mirror to monitor the situation in the radar room and I envisioned a scene from REAL GENUIS where they bounced a light beam down the hall. Frank corrected me, saying it was a single mirror on which the man watching the scope would flash his light if something happened. My mistake, not Frank's. And I know that some of the debunkers have misquoted Frank, but those quotes go forward as if Frank uttered them when he did not. But those same quotes are used to discredit him. > Looking forward to resolving this apparent discrepancy and for a >clarification of your position, >Kal K. Korff No apparent discrepancy. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 16:30:14 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 11:13:54 -0400 Subject: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files > From: TotlResrch@aol.com [Kal Korff] > Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 05:05:36 -0400 (EDT) > To: Updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files >Recently, several UFO researchers have professed to have copies of Major >Marcel's military files. While there is no doubt that this material is >making >the rounds via the photocopy circuit, one must be CAREFUL which set of >these >records one possesses. >For example, I received from Bob Todd, the ENTIRE nearly 200 page set of >files that constitute Marcel's military records. This is nearly ALL his >files, save his medical records. I also received another set of the SAME >material from another source. >By comparison, for a long time now, a SUB-SET of this material consisting >of >some 8-11 pages has been widely circulated and if there are any of you out >there who are making grand pronouncements about Marcel's "truthfulness" >from >this sparse, incomplete material, you need to know that it is only the >COMPLETE SET that tells the FULL story!! >I would be interested in knowing from Kevin Randle and others who have >posted >comments about this topic for example, WHICH set of records they are citing >in their "glowing" remarks about Major Marcel. Is it the complete set, or >this subset of records? >Until those who have only the subset of Marcel's records have the rest of >the nearly 200 additional pages, their "comments" cannot be taken seriously. >The truth is Major Marcel did indeed make false claims about numerous things, >including about being a "pilot," which he was not. Well, I actually have both sets of records, the whole 200 pages and the 16 page subset. I also have the unit histories of several of the units to which Marcel was attached during the Second World War and even have a copy of a citation for one of the Air Medals that Marcel was awarded. >Kevin Randle is wrong on this point and I prove this in my new book on >Roswell which discusses Marcel's numerous false claims over the course of 8 >pages. If we are assuming that the Pratt interview is one hundred percent accurate and there is no possibility that he might have made a mistake, Marcel didn't claim to be military pilot but that he had flown AS a pilot. He mentioned that he had other flight time, and I know quite a few people who served in aviation units who have quite a bit of flight time and none of it documented in official sources. Sorry, I'm just not buying this one. > Looking forward to resolving this discrepancy, > Kal K. Korff Apropos of nothing at all, in which branch of the military did you serve? KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 06 May 97 17:13:11 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 11:06:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell Note to all. My book stores still do not have K Korff's book. Waldenbooks, B. Dalton and Books a Million all tell me it isn't even in their main warehouses yet. Would someone who has the book already let me know the name and address of the publisher and the ISBN? I'll try direct ordering. Thanks a lot. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Keyhoe & NICAP From: "Joe Daniels (UFO JOE)" <ufojoe@cron-2.mco.on.ca> Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 13:09:22 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 10:59:56 -0400 Subject: Keyhoe & NICAP On Tue, 6 May 1997, Dave Rudiak wrote: > From: DRudiak@aol.com > Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:16:52 -0400 (EDT) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: NICAP's formation. Great quote. > In the thread New Canadian UFO Book: "Joe Daniels (UFO JOE)" > <ufojoe@cron-2.mco.on.ca> wrote: > > I may have to eat humble pie on this one. According to David Jacobs > > in his book "The UFO Controversy in America" Keyhoe did have a hand > > in the formation of NICAP: > > "A group of private citizens interested in UFOs and dissatisfied > > with Air Force policies met in October 1956 to organize the Flying > > Saucer Discussion Group.... With the help of Keyhoe, Brown appointed > > to the board of governors a retired army brigadier general, two > > physicists, two ministers, and two businessmen, among others.... > > Brown changed the club's name to the professional sounding > > National Investigations Committee on Aerial Pehnomena and had the > > organization incorporated on October 24, 1956.... Keyhoe purposely > > stayed in the background, not wanting reporters to 'jump on it > > [NICAP] and picture it as a Keyhoe-inspired deal'" > > So it may seem that Keyhoe may have indeed formed NICAP, but > >wanted to create the impression that he did not. > Brown, however, quickly left NICAP. Maybe somebody knows the history. > Retired Rear Admiral Delmer S. Fahrney, former head and founder of the > Navy's guided missile program and a friend of Kehoe's, took his place as > NICAP board chairman. > The first organizational meeting of NICAP was held in Washington D.C. on Jan. > 16, 1957, and was actually briefly reported on by the New York Times. The > interesting part was Fahrney's comments in a press conference held afterwards > in which he stated that > "there are objects coming into our atmosphere at very high > speeds. No agency in this country or Russia is able to > duplicate at this time the speeds and accelerations which > radars and observers indicate these flying objects are able > to achieve." > Also, > "an intelligence" directs such objects "because of the way > they fly. They are not entirely actuated by automatic > equipment. The way they change position in formations and > override each other would indicate that their motion is > directed." > That seems like a pretty definitive statement that they were real from a top > military man and rocket scientist type. > As I remember, Fahrney was gone in a few more months, and that's when Keyhoe > took over. Again, I don't know the details of what happened. > David Rudiak Once again, according to David Jacobs in "The UFO Controversy in America": "Tensions between Keyhoe and Brown over Brown's financial policies peaked in January 1957 at a climatic membership meeting.... A shouting match ensued and Keyhoe issued an altimatum to the board and Brown: either Brown resigned from NICAP or Keyhoe would personally advise Admiral Fahrney and other board members to resign.... the next day it [the board] forced Brown to resign, elected Admiral Fahrney chairman, and appointed Keyhoe to replace Brown as the new director of NICAP." .--------------------------------------------. | From UFO Joe Daniels http://cron-2.mco.net | | 37122-769 Southdale Rd. London, ON N6E-3B3 | | An active member of CUFORN & MUFON Ontario | `--------------------------------------------'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com Date: Mon, 05 May 97 13:44:45 cst Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 13:11:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >Date: 02 May 97 12:34:11 EDT >From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Korff's New Book on Roswell >>Korff's book is not nearly as long as his previous one on Silly Meier, and it >>does not include as many pictures. It only has 24. The photos speak for >>themselves, though, especially the alien autopsy stills and the photo of the >>cameraman. >Korff does not have permission to publish photos from the alien autopsy. If >he has done so, he can expect to hear from Ray Santilli's lawyers. >Bob Gee, Bob... you certainly have an unusual obsession about Santilli's copyright claims. Why should you care one way or the other -- unless you have a financial stake in his venture? But then, what should we expect from Santilli's PR flack? [Bob Shell's only publicly stated -- in this very forum -- reason for taking Santilli's alien autopsy video seriously: "It's a secret." I don't think the reason is much of a secret except to the terminally credulous. Vince
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Meier & Adamski (Vince Meets Santa Claus) From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com Date: Mon, 05 May 97 17:11:11 cst Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 13:13:34 -0400 Subject: Meier & Adamski (Vince Meets Santa Claus) >From: Mike Hesemann. 100660,3672@compuserve.com >Date: Fri, 01 May 1997, 22.21 CET >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Kal Korff Admits He's NOT A Spy! [Jeroen On the Meier affair, I wrote: >>Are you really making the case that it is more likely that Meier >>and Adamski were telling the truth, and that the world-wide >>scientific establishment is engaged in a deliberate coverup >>regarding conditions on Venus? To which Michael Hesemann replied: >Did George Adamski ever claim he visited Venus? No, >he only said that this is what the "space brothers" told >him. There are many possible explanations. Do they >have bases on Venus? Do they live underground? >Did they lie to Adamski? Do they live on Venus, but >in a parallel world/different dimensions. WE DON'T >KNOW and so did he. >Does this prove he lies? Surely not. You could make this same argument for any and all contactee accounts -- no matter how ludicrous. I could just as easily make the claim that I met Santa Claus, and that he told me that he really lives on Venus, and furthermore, I could produce impressive photos of the jolly old elf and several "witnesses" who would verify my account. Would my claim would be any less believable than Adamski's or Meier's, and if not, why not? >>Anything is possible. However, we should not be blind to the >>possibility that some people just make stuff up for attention or >>monetary gain. >Then how does it come that neither Adamski nor Meier >ever got rich? Not enough overcredulous rubes, I suppose. Are you saying that neither Adamski or Meier made any money from their contact accounts? Regards, Vince
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 20:25:48 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 13:21:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell Regarding... >Date: 05 May 97 08:58:50 EDT >From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell Bob wrote to Rebecca: >I have a personal stake in this because I have devoted a lot of time >and money to research for my planned book, and have secured the >exclusive right to reproduce still images from the film/video in that >book. The only other person who has authorization to use ANY still >images from the film/video is Linda Moulton Howe and I worked with >her and Ray to select images for her use which would not interfere >with my project. [...] >Now I have to buy TWO copies, one for me and one for the lawyers. Bob, When did you secure the "exclusive rights"? My reason for asking is that I had a fax from Ray earlier this year which said, "Concerning the use of some stills from the footage... I would be happy for you to use a couple of these images...". I didn't take up Ray's offer, but can I still do so if I wish? Perhaps I should pass on your claims to Ray and ask if he was aware I might face legal action from you? Obviously, I need to know. Aside from securing your "personal stake", if indeed you have, perhaps you could recap the meaningful evidence you have secured from Ray. James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Re: Conversations with James Oberg - Part 1 From: Geoff Price <Geoff@CalibanMW.com> Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 18:27:18 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 14:49:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Conversations with James Oberg - Part 1 >Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 13:42:00 +0200 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Karel Bagchus <karel@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Conversations with James Oberg - Part 1 [...] >James: They both assert that only McDivitt's report was even remotely >related to UFOs. All other stories (through the time they were associated >with NASA, that is early 1970s) that they've heard about, they say are not >authentic. >Karel: I'd really like to know what your source is regarding this statement >by Cooper. Do you maybe have an address of Cooper for me ? I'd like to ask >him exactly what stories he is talking about becouse I'm not sure what he >has heard, and what not. Cooper said as much in his 1980 OMNI interview. I found this snippet of the interview on the web (although I remember the full text being up somewhere at one time): http://login.icenet.no/~sms/txt/cooper.html Best, Geoff Price Geoff@CalibanMW.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 MJ12 'Fake' documents - a new possibility? From: armen victorian <106105.3217@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:01:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 15:30:35 -0400 Subject: MJ12 'Fake' documents - a new possibility? Recently in the course of my investigation and direct interviews with a few members of an elite US Army team, who were assigned to the CIA, and conducted highly classified operational missions, cleared by the NSC, sanctioned by the relevant US President in the Office, I was told on more than two occasions, and by two separate individuals, whose time of assignment had a wide gap in between - and did not know each other - that, highly classified Executive Orders were issued, either typed, or even hand written, by the US President, and or the Vice President for carrying out these highly sensitive missions. The individuals concerned have provided detailed information concerning some of these missions, and paper trail concerning the validity and qualifications of the individuals concerned - with a long operational history, and are in my archives. This information casts a new dimension on the MJ12 documents. Although, I believe that the actual MJ12 documents released to researchers are fake - nevertheless, I can not rule out the possibility of existence of identical, highly classified Executive Orders concerning the UFO issue. Armen Victorian
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 22:32:40 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 14:55:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files >From: TotlResrch@aol.com [Kal Korff] >Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 05:05:36 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files >Until those who have only the subset of Marcel's records >have the rest of the nearly 200 additional pages, their >"comments" cannot be taken seriously. >The truth is Major Marcel did indeed make false claims >about numerous things, including about being a "pilot," >which he was not. You know, thinking about this, I realized something. Almost no one in this debate ever served in the military. Sooooo, following this logic, I don't think those who have never served should have their comments taken seriously. I mean, they don't understand that the records are normally kept by clerks who were draftees, who didn't care, and that many mistakes have crept into the files. In fact, I think I'll take this a step further and suggest that all those who have NEVER served in Army Aviation should not have their comments taken seriously. (Gees, what a convoluted sentence for a writer). These people don't seem to understand that non-rated personnel sometimes flew AS pilots, or AS doorgunners, but would not have that information included in their official files. They could say that they had flown AS a pilot, for example, and NOT be lying. SOOOO, I don't think we have to listen to anyone who was NEVER in Army Aviation. That is, if we follow the logic shown above. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 22:36:32 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 14:59:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files Going through Marcel's military file, can I find anything missing? What I mean is, are there facts that we can substantiate that are not in the official record? Well, the original citation from FEAF (Far East Air Force) for Marcel's SECOND Air Medal, is not included in the package as it was originally written. How do I know? Because I have a copy of the citiation from the unit history. I also notice in the file, in a document dated February 8, 1942, that Marcel is ordered to "extended active duty at University of Maryland, College Park, Md. Air Intelligence School." Isn't that interesting? KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Alfred's Odd Ode #133 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 18:39:12 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 13:20:05 -0400 Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #133 Apology to MW #133 (For May 6, 1997) I=92m channeled to detachment, imbued with an enchantment, And the multiverse is frozen for inspection. With opened eyes unseeing, still the shadows are retreating And the bunkies sit in puddles of distraction. Yes, the schemers are in evidence, and the fakes have heavy precedence,=20 But that 2%. . . , true strangeness, goes ignored! We orbit inconclusive, and the truth is unobtrusive It=92s our comfort -- sullen safety, that=92s adored. I find it hypocritical to dote on what=92s political, So I don=92t pretend support to _any_ party. I decry the tax and spend, as I do Trent Lott=92s dry end, Our system=92s gone all dark, contrived, and warty.=20 Self-fulfilling prophecy is the flesh of our hypocrisy. It permeates our ways on many levels. We=92ll label a child and treat him a while, But then forget him as one of the rabble. We=92ve prisons for him, or a chain gang un-prim, Or work house, confinement, harsh stable. Locked up together, they hardly make better Their movement away from our label. So, put Ollie North on a chain gang, henceforth! He trashed your treasured constitution! With criminal convolution, he=92s received absolutions From the blackest of closed, and elite institutions. Consider Jake and Elwood, the mythic Blues Brotherhood. Now what was their quest _really_ about? In a government twister to get money to the sisters? A little rock and roll? A little twist and shout?=20 It was over reaction to government abstraction. It was guns, and missiles, police and national guard. It was the weight of oppression much more than suggestion. For just doing what should have been assured! And there at the offices where *they* have final auspices; After Jake and Elwood travailed -- =20 You had a strange hunch that they=92d be "out to lunch." And at the top of the steps _that_ was nailed. It=92s plain that the "G" men would make us un-free men. If they had their way . . . and they do. And it=92s tied in with secrecy, it departs from Democracy. They would have it like Singapore =96 it=92s true. And if you think that the idea is salvation and can free ya=92 Then have another think, you crass conservative. The police go to EXCESS when you don=92t have due process They frame you in arbitrary, unjust prerogative!=20 We see it all the time, and it _should_ just blow your mind! It=92s seen in every time, and place, or province. There=92s been no revolution, where the ruling institution Is generous with the wealth produced in process. In generous places loyalty effaces=20 The hatred for the man of high position. The man flat has nothing, finds existence not worth flushing With the builders of his life in revolution. So come on secret man, let it out of the can! Let the legendary chips fall where they may. Don=92t be the *stall* guy, it=92s your place as the *tall* guy, Who hid it *there*, then hoped t=92would go away. Lehmberg@snowhill.com Well it didn=92t go away; it hasn=92t gone away, I=92m thinking that it=92s= not going to go away. The evidence suggests it won=92t going away. A recent Gallup poll says it hasn=92t gone away. It has not gone away from a commercial media, and it=92s absence is suspicious from the media of news. My guess is it shan't go away, is not capable of going away, and yes, most assuredly should _not_ go away. It=92s here. --=20 "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake. Still, it didn't go away! @@@@ Government, or Social Harassment REPORT - "ZERO" HARASSMENT
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 BWW Media Alert Flash! From: BufoCalvin@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:19:00 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 15:13:34 -0400 Subject: BWW Media Alert Flash! Bufo Calvin, P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com 510-432-8102 (voice, fax, and recorded messages) TAP (The Address Project) NEARU (National Events by Area Registry of the Unexplained) Bufo's WEIRD WORLD (paper and electronic newsletter) ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert for non-commercial purposes) I'll be on THE END OF THE LINE (which is now reportedly officially connected with SIGHTINGS) Wednesday night at 7:00 PM to 8:00 PM Pacific. It's now on the Premiere Radio Network...go to http://www.premrad.com/about-us/affiliates (I think that's it...click the "about us" button if there is one) for stations in that network. Unfortunately, not all of the affiliates carry the show, apparently: the San Francisco one, KNBR, doesn't seem to do so. You can also go to the site at that time and hear it on RealAudio over your multimedia computer. Anyway, I'm hoping to talk about snake mysteries: giant snakes, etc. Maybe one of my cryptozoology friends can help me out here: I remember reading about glowing snakes, but can't spot the reference right away. Anybody know? This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:02:29 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 15:32:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files I've discovered another document missing from Marcel's file. According to one section of it, he was awarded the Bronze Star but I find no citation for it. What this means, quite clearly is that there is information missing from the official record. Let's stop this game of if it isn't in the official record then it must be a lie. There are some alternative explanations here that don't result in our having to destroy the reputation of a man because we don't like what he said. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Re: Where Does Kevin Randle REALLY Stand? From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 01:11:16 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 15:08:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Where Does Kevin Randle REALLY Stand? > From: TotlResrch@aol.com [Kal Korff] > Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 05:16:25 -0400 (EDT) > To: Updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Where Does Kevin Randle REALLY Stand? > On page 228 of my new book, "The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want You > to Know," I quote UFO and Roswell author Kevin Randle in an interview he gave > on the subject of the Roswell UFO crash as saying: > "If I (Kevin Randle) had to rely on the public record (in the Roswell case), > I'd throw up. The evidence is not strong and it's not convincing." > As I note in my new book, I was shocked to hear Randle say this because it > has been HE AND DONALD SCHMITT (whom he has since disavowed) more than > anyone, who have put into "the public record" this "evidence" that he now > says would make him "throw up." > In a recent posting, Kevin Randle has stated that he still thinks that > "Roswell" involves the recovery of an alien spacecraft. Yet despite this, > there is still this troublesome quote Randle is on record as having made > only just recently about finding the Roswell "evidence" to not be "strong" > or "compelling." > Can you EXPLAIN this quote, Mr. Randle, and CLARIFY for the record WHERE > you stand on "Roswell" and mention the NAMES of WHAT WITNESSES (and their > tesimonies) that you feel are "credible" in this case?? > And is it true, Mr. Randle, that you believe in the testimony and numerous > tales of Frank Kaufmann? > Looking forward to resolving this apparent discrepancy and for a > clarification of your position, > Kal K. Korff Kal, I am not speaking for Kevin so I am saying this just because I wanted the enjoyment of doing so: BUY his book, READ his book. (have we seen a similar statements somewhere <grin>). The book that will answer many of your questions is: THE RANDLE REPORT - UFOs in the 1990s. In his discussion of Roswell Kevin Randle does separate out the good, the bad and the ugly and and I thought, states his current position on the evidence clearly. No question about it - this book HAS been published and has been on the bookshelves in the local, NYC, Barnes and Nobles for at least two weeks. P.S. Thank you Kal for the posting of your sighting experience. Gary Alevy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com Date: Tue, 06 May 97 17:21:39 cst Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 13:18:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 13:10:52 -0700 (PDT) >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? On the Meier saga, I wrote: >> If you believe our putative Visitors are constrained by a "Prime >> Directive," how do you reconcile this with their apparent willingness >>to pose their flying saucers for one particular human in one particular >> geographic location? To which Jim Deardorff replied: >The same catch-22 aspect applies there, too. Like with Ed Walters, his >aliens could supply him with photo opportunities on quite a few >occasions, and the extra evidence that these photos provided to support >his encounters can be countered by skeptics who would claim that no one >person should, by chance, have more than one or at most two of these >photo ops. So such skeptics can then ignore the photo facts that point >to reality of the case and just emphasize this other aspect. Their >belief system is therefore saved, and the Prime Directive is upheld. >They can now even appear to many over Gulf Breeze, every so often, and >the (negative) skeptics can just shrug it off with "Oh, Gulf Breeze is >the town where the whole population has gone batty." The difference between Ed Walters and Billy Meier is this: Ed Walters, while his numerous UFO photos rival Meier's, has never established himself as a self-proclaimed Cosmic Emissary of an alien race, as Meier has done. Also, I don't think anyone has ever described the entire population of Gulf Breeze as having "gone batty." In my opinion, the Gulf Breeze sightings must remain classified as "unknown" -- which tends to indicate that anomalous events are actually occuring. Contrast that with Meier's extensive "contact notes" with extraterrestrials he claims to know by name, place of origin, etc. These types of contactee accounts are wholly inconsistent with the consistently inexplicable nature of the UFO phenomenon throughout history, worldwide. >This "Prime Directive" seems to apply to society as a whole, but not to >the selected individuals (UFO witnesses and abductees..) upon whom the >task has been imposed to try to persuade their fellow man that the alien >presence is real. I think you'll agree that if they wanted to, ET ufonauts could find a much more efficient means to reveal their presence. Why would they use a method that was so ambiguous -- and frankly, unbelievable? These sorts of contact accounts have been put forth since 1947 -- without any result other than to call the sanity and/or motives of the contact claimants into question. >> I agree that there is probably disinformation being disseminated, but >>I personally believe it's being disseminated by Meier. >That's the way the Prime Directive is supposed to work. You're not >supposed to be forced to believe anything you don't want to, unless >you're one of the small fraction who's had his own UFO experiences of a >similar nature and wished that it had only been a dream. Let me get this straight: The Prime Directive is aimed at inducing only a tiny minority of the Earth's population to believe in the existence of ETs? There's just no logic to this -- at least to my puny simian brain. >> If someone makes unverifiable claims that are later proved to be false >> when the means for verification are developed, is it really more >> likely that aliens misinformed the claimant, or that the claimant merely >> lied to begin with? >The latter is least likely if the claimed falsification doesn't hold up, >or is based merely upon what an abductee/contactee is told or shown, and >especially if many of the witness's experiences are indeed supported by >witnesses and his photos/films are indeed fully consistent with being >genuine and non-hoaxed. As I recently posted to Michael Hesemann: You could make this same argument for any and all contactee accounts -- no matter how ludicrous. I could just as easily make the claim that I met Santa Claus, and that he told me that he really lives on Venus, and furthermore, I could produce impressive photos of the jolly old elf and several "witnesses" who would verify my account. Would my claim would be any less believable than Adamski's or Meier's, and if not, why not? >Let me ask you something, Vince: Do you think that it is just a random >fluke of chance that in 50 years of sightings & encounters, extending over >time periods of from seconds to hours and to witnesses numbering from one >to scores or more, probably over 200,000 events in all, that the aliens >never *once* stuck around long enough for the news media to move in and >report it over all the networks and TV, and for scientists and politicians >to converge on it and confirm it & see it for themselves? >I think you have to concede that "they" are helping maintain their own >coverup, while at the same time continuing to expose themselves to >selected individuals, witnesses and small groups worldwide and in >various flaps. This indicates a strategy is being employed; is 50 >years not enough for us to see what the essential part of this strategy >is? ABSOLUTELY! "They" (our putative Visitors) have apparently made every effort to obscure and confuse not only their doings -- but their very existence. Why then would this carefully maintained strategy be scrapped in the case of Billy Meier? In my opinion, we are either dealing with advanced beings constrained by a Prime Directive, or something so weird and outside our knowledge, experience and imagination that we can't begin to comprehend. Meier's claims don't conform to either scenario. >> If aliens did want to make contact with the human race, all they'd >>have to do is get on the radio. >But I don't quite agree with your radio example. If this happened, >afterwards skeptics would quickly claim it was a hoax, and that >authorities were diligently engaged in tracking down the human >perpetrators, and would see to it that it didn't happen again. The >aliens would need to do better than that, if they thought the day had >arrived when humanity was as prepared as they would ever be to accept >their reality. Intelligent signals from "far away" (which could easily be established beyond a doubt) would establish the reality of intelligent ET life, while offering the comfort that the radio source was far away. Best of both worlds. Wouldn't that make a helluva lot more sense than the questionable (at best) scenario you seem to be endorsing? Regards, Vince Search for other documents from or mentioning:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Re: Welcoming Linda From: HONEYBE100@aol.com (Linda Cortile) Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 02:38:11 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 15:10:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Welcoming Linda >Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 00:43:14 -0500 (CDT) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto - <UpDates@globalserve.net> >From: Yellowrose <yelorose@swbell.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Welcoming Linda You wrote: >Mirrors seem to reflect entities we do not see with the naked eye. >This is the second time I've heard of a CEE (Close Encounter >Experience) in which beings were seen in the mirror. Amy: I have never heard of this sort of phenomena. I saw the relection of these beings in the mirror from the corner of my eye, during hypnosis. This wasn't a conscious memory. >Can you remember where they were when you saw them in the >mirror? Yes...they were standing to my right in the mirror, but a little ways behind me as I started to walk away from the window. I put my eyes down so as not to see what was there. I walked back to my chair. As I continued to walk back to the chair, I could see them from the corner of my eye, on the left of me (there are no mirrors there. >Were they standing near this entrance you describe or were they >in another part of the room? By the time I got back to my chair, I saw them standing at another part of the room, the entrance way. >Can you give me a little more detail about what you saw in the >mirror? To the right of me, and a little bit behind, I could see two darkish, long, vertical images. I'll suppose they looked dark because the lighting in the livingroom is dim at night. I was afraid that whatever it was, was going to attack me from behind. But still, I chose to keep my eyes down hoping that they would think I didn't see them. I had hoped that if they believed I didn't see them, I could make a surprise run-for-it to the boys room. But it was too late, they were standing by the entrance door of the apartment. This would mean that I'd have to run past them to get to the boys room. These two, tall, blond men were there in the mirror and at the entrance way of my apartment. I looked straight at them as they stood there. Your research sounds very interesting. I have seen things from the corner of my eyes here in this apartment. I haven't mentioned any- thing to anyone about it. However, a few years back, a friend of mine who was staying with my younger son, complained about seeing things from the corner of his eye, but not in the mirrors. He'd quickly turn his head to the right, so as to catch what he saw. But nothing was there. Its happened to me too. However, I think there's a strong possibility that while wearing eyeglasses, reflections can be more evident in the glass. Or, is my opinion wishful thinking on my part? Thanks for your questions, Amy. Regards, Linda Cortile
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 19:31:29 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 15:35:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 18:20:53 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>From: bhamilto@pcshs.com >>Date: Tue, 06 May 97 07:59:10 -0700 >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, updates@globalserve.net >>Date: 05 May 97 08:58:48 EDT >>From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>>Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 13:10:52 -0700 (PDT) >>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>>Jim, >>>It seems to me that the proper question is: Are contactees ever told >>>the truth? >>>I am skeptical of most contactee stories in the sense that I think it >>>is not necessarily true that they are being contacted/abducted by ETs. >Bill Hamilton responds, >>On the other hand, I am one one of the few around who knew the early-day >>contactees like most of the critics do not and witnessed my first UFOs >>following their advice or in their presence. I have no trouble with the >>concept of an ET origin or ED (extradimensional) origin, but how do you >>frame a set of criteria to test the hypothesis. After 44 years of >>research I find I am encountering many researchers who have been in this >>just a few years and have already leaped to conclusions of their own - >>why so hasty? >One of the most difficult things confronting both researchers and >contactees, is having to wade though all of the 'dogma' that has >formed around the subject. The simple truth is, that we don't know >'what's' going on, but we know for sure that 'something' is. >At some point an effort has to be made for all of us to unify as a >group and begin deciding on a systematic approach to the problem >that can deliver answers. Ala "Project 1947" where some good people >have put their heads together and are focusing on a single objective. >>From what I have seen, energies are scattered and unfocused in the >UFO community at large, and the ones that _are_ involved (especially >on the net) feed on each other like crash survivors on an isolated >mountain top! Ooooh yum! Who we gonna eat next! <G> >Until actual steps are taken by 'us' to unify as a group and pool >common resources, all we're going to get is more of this cinema >verite Fellini flick called "Ufology". I for one will not weep for >its demise. I can't wait to see it all replaced by something saner >and more coherent, focused, and united in effort. I only hope that >ufology (as it exists today) is not a vampire like 'Disco' that >rises from the grave occasionally to strike fear and mortal dread >into the hearts of all warm blooded beings. >>It seems like most of you on this List are bent on debate. How >>many are pursuing the evidence? >There are lots of good guys on this list Bill. Unsung (local heros) >like Jerry Cohen, and Rebecca Shatte to mention but two of many. >And then there are those who enjoy engaging in what can only be >classified as a form of intellectual masturbation. They are alot >like the 'chatter' you have to get through when you're meditating >before you reach the Silence! <G> And there are those who decide what good guys are. __________________________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Leiden, The Netherlands \___________________________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 13:51:40 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 15:47:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >>Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:04:46 -0500 (CDT) >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell Bob Shell wrote: >Dennis, >Ray Santilli is his own man, and if he decides to sue someone, that is up to >him. Bob, thanks for yours. I suspect that Ray, once his attorneys brief him about what would be involved in pursuing a copyright infringement suit in the United States, will decline to sue anyone here, either. The situation is somewhat analogous to the difference between US and British libel laws. Had Jenny Randles been quoted in an American newspaper instead of an English one, do you think Harry Harris and Stanton Friedman would have pursued it beyond a phone call? I think not. >But, regardless of this, Ray has every right to claim copyright on still images >from the footage since his company bought and now owns the footage, and these >stills are derivatives from that footage. That is a different issue. >The cameraman interview is a totally different issue, again, since that is >clearly copyrighted material, and no one can contest this on any grounds. I'm no attorney myself, mind, but I would hazard that 90 per cent or more of all cases settled in this country have little to do with the exact word of the law, so much as issues of who's willing to outspend who. In other words, Santilli or his barristers would have to find someone in this country willing to tackle Prometheus Books. That someone, in turn, would have to be convinced that considerable damages were involved and could theoretically be recovered. I suspect the main issue involved here would be what is referred to in the news business as the "fair use" clause. By reproducing still frames from the autopsy film in his book as a basis for critical comment on same (which he probably 'grabbed' himself), Korff is probably entirely within his journalistic rights. Presumably, Prometheus's own attorneys would have hashed this out with the publisher long before they allowed them to appear in print. >Ray is in Spain at present on a business trip, but >I did receive a communication from him today and he >indicated that he would pursue this matter if the Korff >book indeed contains still images used without authorization. >Since I have not yet seen the book, I can not comment on what >images it contains. >That's where the matter stands. >Bob You also say that the AF wouldn't dare claim copyright because it would prove the alien autopsy was 'real.' Perhaps. But real *what*? What if it turned out to be a real training film for a theoretical alien autopsy that was never used. 'What if?' a lot of things. I suspect the defendants' attorneys would have a number of interesting questions for Ray in court, too, questions that he might not rather have answered in a public forum, given that he's been so artful at dodging answers to them in the past. Same could conceivably apply to the cameraman's case, as well. In short, I hope he does sue -- but my own money is that he won't. Especially if, as you say, things are presently 'sour' between Ray and the cameraman. > Since I have not >yet seen the book, I can not comment on what images it contains. Being a lifelong CIA snitch, I thought I'd be able to provide the ISBN number for Korff's book from the latest Prometheus catalog, but I seemed to have misplaced same. Anyway, the following should do the trick: http://www.Prometheus.com Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: Glennys Mackay <glenmack@thehub.com.au> Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 01:42:41 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 15:38:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? I would like to add my bit to Bob Shell's article. Yes truth is stranger than fiction, It is very hard for anyone in your shoes to accept that people are being contacted or abducted, but until you have had that experience, then you cannot comment.(make judgement) As a hypnotherapist and researcher over 25 years plus. I have had many patients who have come to me for various problems and under hypnosis have recalled experiences of being taken on a space craft, having probes inserted to various places in there body, these same people have had a great fear of the dark and bright lights - which when asked to look behind those bright lights were able to see space craft and tall skinny beings and ones in grey body suits. Majority of these patients have never had knowledge or believed in UFO's but were able to release there fear of having to sleep with the light on. Understanding that as a child, it was not a family member who entered there room and touched them while they slept , but beings of strange appearances. I chose to go on a journey of discovery through my own experiences, when having had a disk shaped object land on my parents farm as a child, (In Tasmania) then being followed home one night in April, 1964 in New Zealand, lost time - One hour and twenty minutes. I found phenomenal things started happening to me, like psychic powers enhanced. telepathatic communication with something or someone every night until 2.20am in the morning. I have never felt afraid. I was also cured of throat and lung cancer in the mid-seventies. 1970's saw much activity in New Zealand. I had three helicoptor pilots and an aircraft engineer staying with us at the time, we often used to sit on the balcony most nights and watch these things flying across the sky many miles up and enter a larger object which I would consider a mother ship. On three occassions had first hand encounters during day light with different beings that looked just like us, only more intelligient (as they claimed we have not used very much of our grey matter - They would often set us tasks, some times mathematical equations and tell us to go work it out or they would give us the answer and tell the boys in our group to go way and work out how to get that answer and come back in a week). We had one of these people turn up at our monthy meetings in the middle of February when the temperature was up round 90's and the humidity was extremely high wearing a thick sweater and a leather jacket. Skin texture was a little strange in colour, One of the interesting things about this male person was the fact that he never opened his eye. If he looked at you he would raise his head and look at you under his eyelids. We had about sixty people there that day and during the afternoon, when we were sharing information he turned to look at me and when he opened his eyes wide, he had slits for his pupils and the whites of the eyes was like looking at silvery/grey. I had often analyzed the whole situation for me - and come to the conclusion that we maybe the robots, ( :) smile) as often when they communicated I would be told to go to a certain place and they would show themselves or they would give me information that was very relevant at the time - I would have the opportunity to pass on information that would help someone else. etc. My last encounter was in Honolulu in Manoa Valley when I with five other people all academics except for my husband. We spotted a light on the hill which our logic mind decided it was a house and saw through the three windows people moviing about, we assumed that they were getting ready for bed. Then when this woman appeared who was over 7feet tall which is about t o feet taller than , dressed in a white tunic walked down the road towards us. I asked "Did you come from that house on the hill?" she replied; "That is not a house" she continued walking and I tried to keep up with her to ask further questions. Then we decided to get in the car and drive up the hill and find out. The very interesting thing about this whole evening was the cloud formation which caught our eye several times. one lot of clouds moved and this particular one did not , but reflected an orange/red light through the clouds that did not move. This was in May 1993. On driving up the hill we found that only tall trees and a shear drop down into the vally below. On looking up into the sky above us we were aware of this huge round disk shaped object of huge proportion over the top of us. The comment by the Dr. we were with "there has to be a logic answer for all this". the news hit the airwaves of K108 and other stastions the following day. By the way the lady whom we watched come out of this light just dissappeared . Our last encounter was two hours from Flagstaff middle of January of this year while attending the UFO Congress in Laughlin. Was on our way through the Grand Canyon , when we had a very interesting encounter with a very tall man about 6.'.7' wearing a short sleeve shirt and thin flannel trousers. The snow was on the ground and it was very very cold., when questioned as to whether he was cold. he just said " I am not from here" walked to a stationery pick-up which had an emblem on the side, and darn me days, if he just did not dissappear infront of us. We drove back to Laughlin and did not arrive at our hotel till around 3.40am . Did we get lost? What happened?? it was very strange. Regarding 'The God Hypothesis', Joe Lewels was one of our Guest speakers at the Ausralian International Symposium in Brisbane in October 1996 and his lecture was quite outstanding. I will look forward to reading his book. As there are other ways of looking at this whole senario besides the logic mind. Congratulations Joe, Well done. Well done Errol - I do enjoy the articles. Keep up the good work. Glennys MUFON QLD ["Speak your truth quitely and clearly listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant' they too have their story."]
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Re: Information on MIB Needed From: Glennys Mackay <glenmack@thehub.com.au> Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 01:59:04 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 15:40:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Information on MIB Needed Regarding Diane Landry's request for stories of aborigianal stories. There are many Australian Aboriginals that tell of many encounters with the Star People who come down to teach. One group I know claim to have been taught all about Egptytology by the Star People. They also claim that a particular hill shaped like a pyramid surrounded by a huge mountain range is where they used to come to there sacred sight. Now this mountain has been taken as Crown land by the Government and is now used by the airforce from Amberly Base and the army . Farmers claim they have been stopped from going up to the top and when walking through the the paddocks are very much aware that the ground is shaking. A concrete pad is on top of this pyramid shaped hill. The native Aborigines are very telepathic in fact they could run rings around us. this is where Bush telegraph came from. In the early days the native stockmen would be able to telepathic tune into someone on the other properties and send messages which cold be picked up by others many miles away. Jenny Randles in England who has written many books, was one on MIB check you book stores. Regards, Glennys
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Greer - CSETI From: armen victorian <106105.3217@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 07:58:51 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 15:26:44 -0400 Subject: Greer - CSETI If you are seriously keen to join in a venture with Steven Greer, and are prepared to part with $2100, you better contact CSETI. Greer is offering one week "special event in England" from July 22-28, 1997. During which you would have a taste of what CSETI is all about. But, beware should you decide to cancel, you would be loosing $100. Previously I wrote about Greer's funding via Laurence Rockefeller through BSW Foundation. BSW stands for; 1. "Bootsie" Galbraith - whose husband was the US Ambassador to France during Reagan's term in the office - Evan Galbraith - who in turn is the brother of the famous Economist. Bootsie has had a long term interest in alternative health methods, and still does. Luarence, in many occasions, and privately funded many of Bootsie's own projects, dealing with alternative health methods. 2. "Sandy" Houghton - who is Sandra Hougton, of the famous publishing family "Houghton Mifflin". She is another wealthy woman, that was close to Bootsie. Sandy is now divorced, and goes under the name Sandra Wright. She is a total credulous believer in all types of New Age and fanatic UFO claims. She is a staunch supporter of stories like; Meir, Mexico sightings, Bob Dean, crop cirlces, and maitains her support of Greer. Bootsie and Sandy for a while worked closely on the UFO briefing project, which Laurence partly funded the BSW for it, a totall sum of approximately $100,000. The briefing paper, better known intially as "Matrix of UFO Beliefs" was the brainchild of Dick Farley, and was an investigative and analytical tool, that according to Farley had its genesis during Farley's 20 years of active inquiry into 'UFO' phenomena. The main contributors to Farley's thinking were J. Allen Hyneck [1981-1984], and Jacques Vallee [who independently asked to brief Gibbons in the White House during this entire affair]. Farley at that time was hired as the director of project development for the Human potential Foundation (HPF), chaired by Senator Clairborne Pell, a close friend of Laurence. HPF's president was C.B. "Scott" Jones. The Matrix of UFO Belief was not designed to suggest to Bill Clinton or his advisors what "all the UFO might be". Eventually this briefing paper was delivered to Gibbons in mid-May 1993. But, during the process of this document Bootsie, who is more credulous, and not as naive as Sandy had a falling out, with Sandy. Consequently Sandy was removed from the project. One issue of this despute between Sandy and Bootsie was Steven Greer, who had received funds on the promise that he could produce actual witnesses to the "government cover-up". Greer enjoyed the funding and delivered nothing at that time. Sandy a close friend and supporter of Greer remained faithful to Greer, and she still is. Bob Dean too, enjoyed some funding in this between. Greer whilst working for them, at that time misrepresented himself as Laurence's representative. Henry Diamond, Laurence's attorney soon put a stop to it, and cut off any further funding to Greer. The entire operation at the end produced no results, in fact it was a sham. Another individual who acted as a consutant for a while during the preparation of this briefing document was Bob Durant. Durant still remains a friend to Sandy, and has no contact with Bootsie. Sandy Wright still remains active in the UFO field and is closly involved with Greer's activities. Briefing document, as mentioned before, produced no results, and was ignored by all its recepients. After Greer was exposed he took an antagonistic position, further alienating himself from his sponsors. 3. Daphne Wood, a secretary working in a small office was the "W" component of the BSW. She since has left BSW and another woman has taken her place. Wood was never one of the prime movers in this scenario. In fact it was Sandy Wright who recently funded Greer's recent meeting in Washington. Edgar Mitchell from the Institute of Neotic Sciences made a small contribution. Nevrtheless, Mitchell is not one of Greers "witnesses". Although, he was present at the meeting. But let us have a closer look at some of Greer's "witnesses", who are prepared to forego their secrecy agreement with the US Government and step forward; 1. Commander Graham Bethune (US Navy retired): Bethune had some kind of sighting many years back. He is a staunch believer that all the planets are inhibited by invisible beings. 2. Dona Hare; Claims to be a former NASA employee. Checks with NASA proved otherwise. Hare claims that NASA removed the traces all of UFOs on photographs before being released to public. 3. Sgt. Charles Sorrells: A former military airport tower operator, who was stationed at one time at Edwards AFB. Sorrells claims that he saw six UFOs over the base in 1965, and scramble was made, but could not intercept the UFOs. There is nothing new in his claims, many researchers do in fact possess documents released through the FOIA, containing such cases. 4. Col. Swatecki: USAF, was stationed in Strategic Air Command at Loring AFB when UFO hovered over the base for many hours. Loring had been closed for many years now. Additionally, once more several records are available on the case. 5. Major George Filer USAF (retired). I know Filer. Filer claims to have knowledge of the killing of an alien at Fort Dix (McGuire AFB). This is an old [late] Leonard Stringfield story. Filer also believes that the US Government possesses Nazi saucers that have been flying around for almost 50 years! 6. There is also a Naval officer [asked not to be named] who claims that a UFO was tracked on radar on the East Coast of the US sometimes around 1980. In addition to these, there are another group of Greer's witnesses, whose stories are so hillarious and humourous that I'd rather leave them out at this juncture. Greer was given a piece of a metal, and was made to believe it is a piece of a UFO. He confided this to a few of his close associates in strict confidence. He was quite excited about it for a while, and even took a trip to Pentagon. A Pentagon source told me that after examining the piece there was nothing unearthly about it. Greer, after that meeting no longer spoke about his discovery. He even, apparently removed the traces of all written references to the metal from his press briefing. The questionable point is that "IF" Greer possessed the "smoking gun" witnesses - as it were - he wouldn't have to keep threatening the US Government, having all secret meetings, or keep trying to raise money to find more witnesses. Armen Victorian
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: MAC TONNIES <0212104@ACAD.NWMISSOURI.EDU> Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 15:28:26 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 21:27:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell Vince wrote: >From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com >Date: Mon, 05 May 97 13:44:45 cst >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >>Korff does not have permission to publish photos from the alien autopsy. If >>he has done so, he can expect to hear from Ray Santilli's lawyers. >>Bob >Gee, Bob... you certainly have an unusual obsession about >Santilli's copyright claims. Why should you care one way or the >other -- unless you have a financial stake in his venture? >But then, what should we expect from Santilli's PR flack? I am so tired of wading through pointless negativism and inter- personal barbs every time I check my e-mail. The issues re. copyright of the alleged alien autopsy stills have been addressed previously in this forum, and I fail to see how junk messages like this one help advance the issue. I've enjoyed and benefitted from many of the arguments on UpDates, but this message doesn't qualify. "Have a point...It makes it so much more enjoyable for the listener!" --Steve Martin "Planes, Trains and Automobiles" **************************************************************** Mac Tonnies * #415 Franken Hall, NWMSU * Maryville, MO 64468 (816) 562-6488 * E-mail: 0212104@acad.nwmissouri.edu Web: www.nwmissouri.edu/~0212104/apu.html "Today's Abstractions are Tomorrow's Archetypes" ****************************************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 7 'Tent Footage' video sold in Italy From: Edoardo Russo <erusso@torino.ALPcom.it> Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 20:35:29 +0001 (GMT) Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 16:58:18 -0400 Subject: 'Tent Footage' video sold in Italy Hello All! You may be interested in learning that the infamous "tent footage" is presently being sold on video in thousands of newsstands all over Italy for no more than 10 U.S. bucks. The 5 minutes long footage is contained in a commercial video called "Alien Autopsies - vol. 2", sold with weekly issue No. 13 of a sort of UFO Enclyclopedia called "UFO - Dossier X", published by such a publisher as Fratelli Fabbri (one of the greatest ones here) and edited by none else but our old friends of "Centro ufologico nazionale" (CUN), i.e. Roberto Pinotti and Maurizio Baiata. Claimed circulation of that venture is over 50,000 copies (very good for a country with 50 millions inhabitants), price is 16,900 Italian Lire for a 24-pages glossy booklet and a 30-minutes video. The er... real "autopsy footage" had already been distributed in December, 1995, together with then current issue of "Notiziario UFO" (Italian equivalent of "UFO Universe", edited by the Two Guys above and sold in 30,000 copies) priced 19,900 Lire (US $ 12). The same mag was the only one in the world (to my knowledge) to also publish some still images from the "other" (so-calle "first") autopsy in 1996. Those same stills are now also included in the "Alien Autopsies - Vol. 1" video of the same "UFO - Dossier X" series (as you may guess, Vol. 1 is mainly consisting of the first half of that 1995 video cassette, while Vol. 2 has the second half). I wonder if that's the first time the "tent footage" is put on sale on video anywhere in the world. If so, that will only confirm the good liaison between Ray Santilli and the Italian group known as "Centro ufologico nazionale", whose directors Roberto Pinotti and Maurizio Baiata have long been deeply involved in helping Ray to sell "his" goods here in Italy, beside taking part in the so-called International Research Team, whom I seemed to understand was an Santilli-independent truth-seeking informal group, wasn't it? Indeed, both video covers claim the "exclusive" rights upon Editalia ("Notiziario UFO" publisher) and "Futuro Co.", the personal commercial venture of (guess it!) Roberto Pinotti and Maurizio Baiata. Does it mean that Fratelli Fabbri payed Futuro/Pinotti/Baiata for the video rights? Probably so. Such eminent IRT members as Philip Mantle, Michael Hesemann and Bob Shell will undoubtedly be able to check whether their Italian counterparts acted upon regular permission by Santilli (as I believe) or as an unauthorized (thence persecutable?) copyright violation. Anyway, the Gang of Two did already publish some stills from the "tent footage" in their September-October 1996 issue, and Maurizio Baiata has been showing the footage tent in his public conferences in Italy since more than a year. Since he's always called himself "the one holding the autopsy footage rights for Italy" and even claimed "we of CUN [formerly a UFO research group] are transacting for selling the rights to the Italian national TV", I have no reason to think he might have betrayed his friend Santilli's trust, expecially as Maurizio was the special representative of Santilli in his menaced sueing of me and other bad guys of Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, who dared to break the claimed copyright by distributing free copies of autopsy stills to the Italian press. Ah, as for copyright infringements and lawsuits: Bob Shell, Kal Korff, Dennis Stacy or anybody else, out there: don't worry too much about that. Two years have since elapsed, no sue was ever cast upon us (we assumed the interested parties were much too occupied in counting green bucks) and the alien autopsy stills have been published all over Italy in books, journals, magazines, etc., without either Santilli or Baiata ever sueing any publisher. Nor did Ray sue our good Spanish friends Javier Sierra and Enrique De Vicente, who decided to publish those stills in the popular mag "Ano Cero", back in that hot 1995 summer, openly challenging Ray's claimed copyright. BTW, Maurizio Baiata will only be too glad at the recent turnaround by Kent Jeffrey about the Roswell case, since Maurizio was the first ("Notiziario UFO", May-June 1996) to openly call Jeffrey a debunker when Kent dared to publish his now-famous critique of the SCAM. (No wonder to see Baiata now rejoined by more IRT members, as well as by the "paranoid fringe" of conspirationists.) Thus goes present-day Italian ufology, well the commercial-minded part of it only, I mean. That was for the record. Best regards. Edoardo Russo Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici C.I.S.U. - P.O. Box 82 - 10100 Torino - Italia tel. +39-11-3290279 (24 hours) fax +39-11-545033 (24 hours) e-mail: edoardo.russo@torino.alpcom.it http://www.arpnet.it/~ufo
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 8 April sightings in Baldwin County, Alabama? From: "Diana Hopkins" <DDBH@msn.com> Date: Wed, 7 May 97 22:14:33 UT Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 00:33:05 -0400 Subject: April sightings in Baldwin County, Alabama? Does anyone have any further information regarding the April sightings in Baldwin County, Alabama? NBC did some coverage on them but I'm wondering if any further sightings or any research has occurred? Thanks
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 8 Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 16:28:19 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 00:27:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files >From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] >Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:02:29 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files >I've discovered another document missing from Marcel's file. >According to one section of it, he was awarded the Bronze >Star but I find no citation for it. What this means, quite clearly >is that there is information missing from the official record. Let's >stop this game of if it isn't in the official record then it must be >a lie. There are some alternative explanations here that don't >result in our having to destroy the reputation of a man because >we don't like what he said. >KRandle I would hate to have the sum-total of my reputation and believability resting on the completeness and accuracy of a military career record. I think SOME people out there spend too much time trying to debunk according to the Klass principle-very little facts and investigation and a lot of prejudiced opinion. I hate to repeat Stanton Friedman here, but in this case: absense of evidence is NOT evidence of absense. I think we sometimes take for granted how little power the idea that we don't know something due to lack of info has. Lots of people dismiss things out of hand because the evidence they want isn't handed to them on a silver platter on demand and at lightning quick speed. Remember only 10 years ago we sometimes had to wait years for a case to culminate before a conclusion could be reliably reached. How quickly things change (attitudes that is.) Joel Henry ***************************************************** Minnesota MUFON Webmaster Minnesota MUFON Web Page= http://www.wavefront.com/~jhenry/index.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 8 Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:23:29 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 00:36:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files >From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] >Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 22:32:40 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files >>From: TotlResrch@aol.com [Kal Korff] >>Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 05:05:36 -0400 (EDT) >>To: Updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files >>Until those who have only the subset of Marcel's records >>have the rest of the nearly 200 additional pages, their >>"comments" cannot be taken seriously. >>The truth is Major Marcel did indeed make false claims >>about numerous things, including about being a "pilot," >>which he was not. >You know, thinking about this, I realized something. Almost >no one in this debate ever served in the military. Sooooo, >following this logic, I don't think those who have never >served should have their comments taken seriously. I mean, >they don't understand that the records are normally kept by >clerks who were draftees, who didn't care, and that many >mistakes have crept into the files. >In fact, I think I'll take this a step further and suggest >that all those who have NEVER served in Army Aviation should >not have their comments taken seriously. (Gees, what a >convoluted sentence for a writer). These people don't seem to >understand that non-rated personnel sometimes flew AS pilots, >or AS doorgunners, but would not have that information >included in their official files. They could say that they >had flown AS a pilot, for example, and NOT be lying. >SOOOO, I don't think we have to listen to anyone who was NEVER >in Army Aviation. That is, if we follow the logic shown above. Kevin, I think there is much to say for this. Indeed, most UFO researchers are not familiar with the Army Aviation environment you are describing where documents are lost or facts recorded incomplete or erroneously. This can easily lead to allegations of lies in cases where there were only a few mistakes made or reporting more facts was not relevant or important. However, to lose documents or record facts incompletely is not unique for Army Aviation, USAF, other air forces or the military in general. It is happening all around the world in every organization and usually nobody bothers. I think what is really wrong in some parts of UFO research is that some UFO researchers assume there is fraud, deceit and cover up in everything they don't understand themselves. This is leading me to think that some UFO researchers should learn more about the world we are living in before they qualify as researchers in the UFO field which is only part of the world. That way we could be spared much misinformation, unfounded allegations and the ensuing confusion and heated debate. Let it be totally clear that I think some UFO researchers do qualify. __________________________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Leiden, The Netherlands \___________________________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 8 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: budscan@juno.com (Bud Jamison) Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 20:08:04 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 01:05:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >Date: 06 May 97 17:13:18 EDT >From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >The cameraman claims copyright to the film because he says it was >abandoned by the US Govt. Copyright attorneys have told me this is a >sound argument. >Furthermore, for the US GOvt to claim copyright, they would have to >acknowledge the film as the real thing. I don't see that as likely. >In the absence of any claim to copyright by the US Govt, the copyright >will remain with the cameraman, or with anyone he transfers it to. If the film were real (and _I_ don't believe it for a second), WHY would the Government have 'forgotten' about it in the first place? And WHY would they have let Santilli release it, once they knew it was found? Without GOOD answers to those questions, anything else is unimportant.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 8 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: budscan@juno.com (Bud Jamison) Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 20:08:04 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 01:07:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 01:42:41 +1000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Glennys Mackay <glenmack@thehub.com.au> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >As a hypnotherapist and researcher over 25 years plus. >I have had many patients who have come to me for various problems and >under hypnosis have recalled experiences of being taken on a space >craft, having probes inserted to various places in there body, these same >people have had a great fear of the dark and bright lights - People ALSO see demons, ghosts, and all sorts of other stuff in dreams. They 'fall' from hills and float for minutes before crashing to earth. They go naked into normal everyday activities. Are these dreams real also? Hypnosis is notoriously unreliable. People can be convinced that they've seen something that did NOT happen. The fact that they had no interest in UFOs before hypnosis makes no difference at all. I WISH that someone would come up with solid evidence for alien life, and I also wish that ONE abductee would come up with irrefutable proof of an abduction. Until that happens, I'll have to believe that there are parts of the mind that we just DON'T understand yet.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 8 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 16:55:14 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 01:02:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? > From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com > Date: Tue, 06 May 97 17:21:39 cst > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? > >Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 13:10:52 -0700 (PDT) > >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? Deardorff wrote: > >The same catch-22 aspect applies there, too. Like with Ed Walters, his > >aliens could supply him with photo opportunities on quite a few > >occasions, and the extra evidence that these photos provided to support > >his encounters can be countered by skeptics who would claim that no one > >person should, by chance, have more than one or at most two of these > >photo ops. So such skeptics can then ignore the photo facts that point > >to reality of the case and just emphasize this other aspect. Their > >belief system is therefore saved, and the Prime Directive is upheld. > >They can now even appear to many over Gulf Breeze, every so often, and > >the (negative) skeptics can just shrug it off with "Oh, Gulf Breeze is > >the town where the whole population has gone batty." > The difference between Ed Walters and Billy Meier is this: Ed Walters, > while his numerous UFO photos rival Meier's, has never established > himself as a self-proclaimed Cosmic Emissary of an alien race, as Meier > has done. The latter is just your assumption. Upon treating Meier's supportive witnesses seriously, plus all his photo evidence that Korff couldn't refute, one finds that Meier was just relaying what he was told by his contactees. If it all didn't happen, then you're right. If it did happen, then Meier was indeed selected by these aliens to be their prime contactee -- call him a Cosmic Emissary then if you wish. Do you have something against the possibility that aliens might choose one person to show & describe & explain themselves to? Obviously, they couldn't repeatedly do this with a group of persons and expect that their coverup could remain intact. Or is the problem that they "should" have contacted some top-notch scientist? Or some political leader? In either case like that it wouldn't be politically correct for that one person then to report to others what had occurred, because he would be overridingly concerned with maintaining his reputation. Although the differences between contactees and abductees are considerable, and Ed falls into the abductee category despite his many photo ops, another similarity is that Meier also had alien experiences dating back to childhood. > Also, I don't think anyone has ever described the entire > population of Gulf Breeze as having "gone batty." Perhaps not yet, or not "all." But it's the sort of statement I'd expect negative skeptics to make. Wherever a flap occurs, the skeptic is left with this way out: of assuming one or more UFO reports or photos provoked still others into mistaking natural events as UFOs or hoaxing their own events. > In my opinion, the Gulf Breeze sightings must remain classified as > "unknown" -- which tends to indicate that anomalous events are actually > occuring. Contrast that with Meier's extensive "contact notes" with > extraterrestrials he claims to know by name, place of origin, etc. There's not that much contrast there: We know what Meier was told their names were, we don't know if those were their real names; they could use other names within their own society. They told him they were from the Pleiades, but one doesn't know if this was true; later they told him they were from some 80 light-years beyond the Pleiades, and we also don't know if that was true. Etc. > These types of contactee accounts are wholly inconsistent with the > consistently inexplicable nature of the UFO phenomenon throughout > history, worldwide. Your sentence would make more sense if you had used the word "consistent." Surely it's just as inexplicable in the Meier case how his aliens could render their craft invisible, or cause it to jump away from one place to another faster than the eye can follow, as in CE1 reports. > >This "Prime Directive" seems to apply to society as a whole, but not to > >the selected individuals (UFO witnesses and abductees..) upon whom the > >task has been imposed to try to persuade their fellow man that the alien > >presence is real. > I think you'll agree that if they wanted to, ET ufonauts could find a > much more efficient means to reveal their presence. I apologize to others for your forcing me to repeat so much here. But we agreed a short time back that they *don't* want to reveal their presence to all of society, at least not yet, since they obviously haven't done that. And the Prime Directive idea goes along with this. But that doesn't mean that they can't reveal themselves to one or more isolated individuals; then when those individuals report what transpired with them, others can believe it or not, depending upon how open or closed their belief system is. > Why would they use a > method that was so ambiguous -- and frankly, unbelievable? Again I repeat, if it were believable to scientists as a whole, and then to society, their coverup would be blown. > These sorts of > contact accounts have been put forth since 1947 -- without any result > other than to call the sanity and/or motives of the contact claimants > into question. There are definite results beyond what you mention. Those who have thoroughly studied the Meier case and its key investigators' findings -- Wendelle Stevens' 1982 & 1987 books, Lee & Brit Elders' and Gary Kinders, and/or have travelled to Switzerland and interviewed some of the supportive witnesses for themselves, learn, for one thing, about aliens that have a human appearance. We learn what some of the main things Meier was taught, especially along spiritual lines. The latter causes one to look into the various books describing evidence supporting the reality of reincarnation, so that one can have a much more informed basis for one's basic beliefs than one had previously. In my case it also caused me to become a New Testament Gospel scholar and understand the origins of Christianity and at just which points orthodoxy and "mainstream" scholars alike went astray. This from careful study of the Talmud of Jmmanuel and comparing it with both the internal (biblical) and external evidence. The Meier case needn't be all that unbelievable if you study the real evidence and realize that they gave Meier an unprecedented amount of same. Then, upon realizing also that they wish to remain covert for some time longer, it is not so hard to understand that they needed to be extra careful to provide Meier also with plenty of ambiguous or deceptive information that would provide negative skeptics with a way out, thus upholding their "Prime Directive" and the coverup. Again, my apologies to others for having to repeat this to Vince. > Let me get this straight: The Prime Directive is aimed at inducing only > a tiny minority of the Earth's population to believe in the existence of > ETs? There's just no logic to this -- at least to my puny simian brain. Again, no. Have you never seen that Star Trek program where some crew members exploring some planet with a native population ready to evolve rapidly into a civilized mode are seen by one of the natives? The Prime Directive there had as its major objective that the advanced ETs (captain Picard & crew) not show themselves to the natives because it would disrupt their society and/or cause them to worship them as gods. Yet in the end they were forced to beam the one native aboard their spacecraft and show her all to prevent her from going crazy, and then return her and leave her to decide if she could explain to her comrades what it was all about. If she were to be successful, then that primitive society was at a stage where the Prime Directive could soon be lifted. If she were unsuccessful, then that society wasn't yet ready, the Prime Directive (or embargo/quarantine against that planet) would remain in place, and the native in question would suffer ridicule or even death at the hands of her comrades. (I've forgotten just how it turned out.) So the tiny minority is the catalyst; they are supplied with personal evidence of alien existence and presence *even while the Prime Directive remains in effect.* The Prime Directive then continues to apply to society as a whole; but to implement it in an ethical or neutrally ethical way, the aliens make exceptions of selected individuals. This shouldn't be considered as anything new -- we've seen it go on for several decades now. > >> If someone makes unverifiable claims that are later proved to be false > >> when the means for verification are developed, is it really more > >> likely that aliens misinformed the claimant, or that the claimant merely > >> lied to begin with? > >The latter is least likely if the claimed falsification doesn't hold up, > >or is based merely upon what an abductee/contactee is told or shown, and > >especially if many of the witness's experiences are indeed supported by > >witnesses and his photos/films are indeed fully consistent with being > >genuine and non-hoaxed. > As I recently posted to Michael Hesemann: > You could make this same argument for any and all contactee accounts -- > no matter how ludicrous. I could just as easily make the claim that I met > Santa Claus, and that he told me that he really lives on Venus, and > furthermore, I could produce impressive photos of the jolly old elf and > several "witnesses" who would verify my account. Now you've suddenly forgotten all about Meier's photo evidence and supportive witnesses. E.g. there's an interesting video tape that shows a Japanese ufologist interviewing Kalliope Meier, with Herbert Runkel as translator, and interviewing two of her children who also had the daytime sighting of Semjase's beamship. One of the children had even drawn a picture of it soon afterwards, which he showed. Though Kalliope by now may be a hostile witness, she couldn't deny what she and her three children saw with their own eyes, and didn't deny it on the video tape. So forget your Santa Claus argument. > >I think you have to concede that "they" are helping maintain their own > >coverup, while at the same time continuing to expose themselves to > >selected individuals, witnesses and small groups worldwide and in > >various flaps. This indicates a strategy is being employed; is 50 > >years not enough for us to see what the essential part of this strategy > >is? > ABSOLUTELY! "They" (our putative Visitors) have apparently made > every effort to obscure and confuse not only their doings -- but > their very existence. Why then would this carefully maintained > strategy be scrapped in the case of Billy Meier? OK. Don't you get it now? The strategy wasn't scrapped. You and others have ensured that news of the Meier case won't make it out into society as a whole, because you're not ready for it, and most of society isn't either. This is part of the strategy. They don't seem to want their existence forced upon people who aren't ready for it, and to me this falls into the category of being an ethical guideline. Jim Deardorff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 8 UFO sighting, New York City From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 01:22:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 02:22:56 -0400 Subject: UFO sighting, New York City Hi Errol, hi All, In the interest of documenting a 'sighting' in a timely manner, I post the following. Anyone who collects such data is welcome to add this report to their database. On Saturday April 26th 1997 at approximately 3:45 pm, I shot 15 seconds of clear video of an 'unknown' in the sky over Queens, New York. The object appeared to be bright white and (somewhat) elliptical. Object appeared to be about 1500 feet high and about as far away. Tough to say if the object is reflecting light or emmiting it, but it is bright white against the blue sky and some clouds that it passes in front of. The weather in New York on Saturday was gorgeous, blue skies, a few cumulus clouds here and there, but otherwise excellent visibility and clarity. The sun was behind me as I shot the video footage. The object that I have captured on tape is identical to the objects that Tom King and others are getting out west. Only diff' is, these are in the skies over New York City and within walking distance from the busiest international airport on the planet, JFK. I had four sightings of the object(s) within a one and-a-half hour period beginning at about 2:15pm (or closely thereabouts.) I spoted a white disc hovering stationary (well not exactly, it seemed to wobble from side to side as it hung there) and it suddenly just zipped away at breakneck speed. 15 or twenty minutes later it would "re-appear" hover for a few seconds, only to zip away again as soon as I'd spot it. I have no way to know if I saw the same object coming and going or four different ones. They all looked identical if there was more than one. The 'forth' appearance, I was ready for! I got my videocam! I spotted the white disc again after searching the sky carefully for more than twenty minutes. As soon as I set my sights on it it began to move away swiftly towards the northeast. I videotaped the object for 15 seconds before it disappeared over my rooftop and out of sight. *But I got the sucker on tape! God bless whoever invented the videocam, and Rodney King for popularizing them! <G> You don't have to take my word for what I saw. You can check it out yourself! There are tons of excellent reference points in the videoclip. The rooftops, the TV antennae, the object passed in front of clouds, etc. I hope it helps whoever trys to/knows how to measure sizes and distances. Copies of this video footage have been sent to the following: Errol Bruce-Knapp, UFO UpDates, Toronto, Canada (to document sighting, verification that the video exists, review and comment for list members) Jeff Saino, MUFON staff photo/video analyst (For analysis) Joaquim Fernandes, Universidade Fernando Pessoa, Porto, Portugal (For analysis by their video lab.) Tom King, Phoenix, Arizona (For posting of videoclip on the web for free public access at: Ovni Chapterhouse) As with the photos I took last year, all results of image analysis will be published the second they are available. I am sending a copy of the videoclip to Tom King so he can post it on the Ovni Chapterhouse website. When it's posted I'll let everybody know via Errols list so you can download it and check it out for yourselves. Hope I've handled this properly. If any (serious) researchers require more info you can contact me privately at my e-mail address. I would also appreciate comments from Errol for the benefit of those who will have to wait to see it for themselves. Strange things are happening kiddies! Watch the skies! I know I plan to spend a lot of time in my yard with my videocam this summer! <G> Better n' Disney Land! John Velez :) * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 8 Debunker Containment Strategy? From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 21:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 12:17:50 -0400 Subject: Debunker Containment Strategy? I would like to see a book written exploring the interactions and relationships between such debunkers as Karl Pflock, Karl Korff, Col. Weaver, Phil Klass, James Oberg, Carl Sagan, Donald Menzel etc. I would also like to see investigations of CSICOP and the tabloid press particulary the Weekly World News. These individuals and organizations have had and are having much influnce on the mass media and mass conciousness. All seem to be following a common strategy to maintain the wall of denial and ridicule around the UFO/ET subject that was officially pursued in the fifties by agencies such as the Air Force and the CIA. It should be explored as to what the relationships are between these individuals and their debunking organizations and the intelligence agencies of the United States Government. Are these organizations and individuals working as honest skeptics or are they acting informaly as a private UFO/ET containment arm of government? Its time that UFOlogists quit playing defense in this intelligence game. It seems quite clear to me that there is in progress a coordinated effort to discredit Roswell and the witnesses involved. In my mind individuals such as Korff and Karl Pflock are simply repeating the tried and true efforts of the debunkers before them such as Phil Klass, Donald Menzel and Carl Sagan. Through such efforts denial and ridicule of the reality of UFO/ETs has been effectively maintained for 50 years. Why has there been so little investigation into the motives, agendas, and backgrounds of the debunkers? Is it not time to put the debunkers under the same scrutiny that the UFO subject recieves. Of the vast number of UFO books written I can't think of one on the debunkers. Why? I think that such qualified investigators and writers such as Kevin Randle, Stanton Friedman and Timothy Good should turn their attention toward exposing these debunking organizations and individuals. Lets take the offensive. Let the debunkers defend themselves for a change. I have seen some good material published in a limited and fragmented matter by Ed Walters, George Hansen and some others but nothing comprehensive. I am willing to bet that a well written and informative book will be a real money maker. I for one would surely buy several copies. How about you? The best, Ed Komarek
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 8 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 07 May 97 20:49:18 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 12:16:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 13:51:40 -0500 (CDT) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell Dennis, I'll be away from here for a while but did want to comment on your post about copyright. Being the Editor of a major national magazine, I've learned quite a bit about what you can and can't do with copyrighted material. Our magazine won the largest judgement in US history for the unauthorized use of a single photograph several years ago. I was in federal court for the trial, and learned a lot. The photographer got $ 156,010.00. Ray has, in fact, already filed one law suit here in the USA over unauthorized use of still images and video. This is a multi-million dollar suit, and will be some time in getting into court and coming to a resolution. >I suspect the main issue involved here would be what is referred to in the >news business as the "fair use" clause. By reproducing still frames from the >autopsy film in his book as a basis for critical comment on same (which he >probably 'grabbed' himself), Korff is probably entirely within his >journalistic rights. Presumably, Prometheus's own attorneys would have >hashed this out with the publisher long before they allowed them to appear >in print. This is by no means a clear cut issue. The fellow who stole the image from my magazine claimed "fair use" but the judge ruled against him on the grounds that fair use has very narrow limits, and applies primarily to newspapers and public TV/radio. James Easton said that Ray had offered him use of a couple of images. That changes nothing. Ray most likely likes James, and was saying that James could use a couple images if he asked in a proper manner. Linda Howe asked ray for use of very specific images, and use rights were granted for some, and not for others. Linda appealed to Ray, and with my help was given permission to use the others. My only interest in this whole issue is that I have negotiated a deal with Ray to write the comprehensive book on the subject, and for this book I will have permission to use many still images, some which have been seen, some which have not. I would rather not have others muddying the waters in the meanwhile. I hope this makes sense. Bob P.S.: To Vince. Yes, I am ignoring you. If you stop insulting me I just might take you seriously, and answer questions.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 8 Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 21:43:03 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 12:21:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files >From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] >Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 22:36:32 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files >I also notice in the file, in a document dated February 8, >1942, that Marcel is ordered to "extended active duty at >University of Maryland, College Park, Md. Air Intelligence >School." Isn't that interesting? >KRandle Only if you can demonstrate that it actually means something! Did Marcel ever go, for instance, and if so, for how long? And even if he did, so what? We know that he had to have gotten to where he was at Roswell at the time -- obviously -- but that isn't really the question, is it? The question is, how reliable is he, period. You yourself have seen G. Anderson, J. Ragsdale and G. Dennis discredit themselves over Roswell. Why assume, necessarily, that Marcel Sr. (God) and Marcel Jr. (Jesus) are any different. Might they not have simply been *mistaken*? Dennis and Ragsdale were taken originally at face value, too, as potentially reliable witnesses -- until they turned out differently. Are you saying -- unequivocably at this time -- that the same can't possibly happen to Kaufmann? That he's good and true for the duration? Then you're much more of a betting man than I am. I don't care if he has documentation out the kazoo. A bona fide service record doesn't mean -- pardon my French -- merde in this business. Dave Morehouse has credentials, too. If you don't believe me, just read his knee-deep-in-cow-poop book about remote viewing, "Psychc Warrior." Ed Dames was in the military, too. And so was Philip Corso, with otherwise impeccable credentials, except that you yourself don't even believe his wildest most recent tales re Roswell. So why do you hold on so tenaciously to the Marcels and Kaufmann? Hasn't it occurred to you that everyone was just a little bit off, and that that's all it really takes to turn Roswell from the UFO event of the century into one of the most magnified mundane events of all time? People need to at least consider the possibility that there was indeed no ET crash at Roswell, let alone one with recovered bodies, and that, consequently, nothing even remotely resembling MJ-12 -- in either fact or fiction -- was established in its wake. Reality is rude. Reality is cruel. But I'd rather be rudely abused than go on believing in something that just did not happen -- at least not in the way that you and other Roswell devotees have advocated. Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 8 Re: Welcoming Linda From: Yellowrose <yelorose@swbell.net> Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 22:16:10 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 12:24:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Welcoming Linda At 03:10 PM 5/7/97 -0400, Linda Cortile wrote: >From: HONEYBE100@aol.com (Linda Cortile) >Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 02:38:11 -0400 (EDT) >To: UpDates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Welcoming Linda >Amy: >I have never heard of this sort of phenomena. I saw the relection >of these beings in the mirror from the corner of my eye, during >hypnosis. This wasn't a conscious memory. Linda, Dr. Karla Turner described this phenomenon somewhat in her book INTO THE FRINGE. Betty Andreasson-Luca also described experiencing this phenomenon in THE ANDREASSON AFFAIR -PHASE TWO and others have experienced it too. I study all phenomena and this has been reported in many types of experiences. In fact, my father described seeing "people" standing in his house that he saw out of the corner of his eye but they disappeared when he looked straight at them. He described them to me three times in a week and my father NEVER saw such things. He first described them as "ghosts" then as "people" just standing there. A week later, I found him dead on the floor. He was old and sickly. I think they were either what we call "angels" or his loved ones who passed on who came to take him home because they knew it was close to his time. I was studying this phenomenon before he passed away. I have other information and evidence that indicates what we see with the naked eye in effect "blinds" us to what is really around us. For some reason seeing out of the corner of our eyes affords better visibility than what enters our field of vision. I am correlating case studies and reports of phenomena that are seen under certain circumstances. What you described was the first time I've heard of both the figures seen in a mirror AND out of the corner of your eye. Mirrors may reflect things we do not see with the naked eye, much like what we see out of the corner of the eye. These phenomena also seem to correlate with anomalies not visible to the eye yet show up in photographs. There are important clues in reports like yours. Whether you remembered spontaneously or under hypnosis is not important for you could not have known how these phenomena correlate with CE experiences (and other experiences). I know that there is much around us not visible to the eye, all I need now is to isolate the frequency per phenonema and how to MAKE it visible through the aid of specialized optics. >Your research sounds very interesting. I have seen things from the >corner of my eyes here in this apartment. I haven't mentioned any- >thing to anyone about it. However, a few years back, a friend of >mine who was staying with my younger son, complained about >seeing things from the corner of his eye, but not in the mirrors. >He'd quickly turn his head to the right, so as to catch what he saw. >But nothing was there. Its happened to me too. However, I think >there's a strong possibility that while wearing eyeglasses, reflections >can be more evident in the glass. Or, is my opinion wishful thinking >on my part? Linda, sometimes our first impressions are more accurate than our analyses. I can understand how uncomfortable it must be to be surrounded by things that "should'nt be there" in your OWN home. You seem to handle it pretty well! Better than most of us would! I don't blame you for not wanting to look at what might be there. Some people seem to be able to see things others cannot see such as auras and balls of light and other phenomena. My daughter sees balls of light that I cannot see. She also sees what she sometimes describes as "little spot of light" all over her hands, face, body and on others (she woke me up in the middle of the night to tell me what she was seeing one night). One time I interviewed an "abductee" who described a ball of light or probe that she often saw out of the corner of her eye. She drew a picture of it for me. This case was/is quite genuine and amazing. After I went home, I kept noticing "things" out of the corner of MY eyes for several days. I'd forgotten about the woman's description of these anomalies until it finally got so irritating I acknowledged that something WAS there - then I remembered the woman describing these things. After about a week, it went away. I wondered if her little "probes" had followed me home.? So, Linda, you are not the only one who experiences this...and there is more! In fact, "Kathy Davis" described seeing a "ball of light" that she saw but her friend could not see even though it floated right past his line of vision (ABDUCTED! by Debbie Jordan and Kathy Mitchell, 1994). There seem to be many things around us that we do not always see. I don't mean to frighten you. Anyway, we live with all kinds of stuff around us we aren't even aware of so why worry about it unless it comes to your attention? As long as these "phenomena" don't leave dirty clothes on the floor and don't put empty milk bottles BACK in the refrigerator, I'll put up with them. Which is more than I can say for my kids! <grin> >Thanks for your questions, Amy. Oh, THANK YOU for answering them! Amy [Hebert]
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 8 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com Date: Thu, 08 May 97 16:29:58 cst Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 19:32:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell Date: 07 May 97 20:49:18 EDT From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell Bob Shell wrote: >P.S.: To Vince. Yes, I am ignoring you. If you stop insulting >me I just might take you seriously, and answer questions. Okay, Bob -- no insult -- just one simple question for the record. In light of Ray Santilli's many evasions and well-documented mis-statements (in our newfound atmosphere of cordiality, I'll refrain from using the "L" word here), what exactly about the alien autopsy case inspires your confidence that the "film" is authentic? Vince
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 8 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:03:48 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 20:06:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >From: budscan@juno.com (Bud Jamison) >Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 20:08:04 EDT >>Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 01:42:41 +1000 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Glennys Mackay <glenmack@thehub.com.au> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>As a hypnotherapist and researcher over 25 years plus. >>I have had many patients who have come to me for various problems and >>under hypnosis have recalled experiences of being taken on a space >>craft, having probes inserted to various places in there body, these same >>people have had a great fear of the dark and bright lights - >People ALSO see demons, ghosts, and all sorts of other stuff in dreams. >They 'fall' from hills and float for minutes before crashing to earth. >They go naked into normal everyday activities. Are these dreams real >also? Hypnosis is not dreams. >Hypnosis is notoriously unreliable. Not so. It is unreliable only in details that have no emotional value. Like whether a couch was blue or black. > People can be convinced that they've >seen something that did NOT happen. That's right, but irrelevant. Because despite the fact that many hypnosis sessions have been recorded, witnessed and transcribed, the first alien abduction hypnosis session has yet to be found where the therapist IS influencing the subject. In the hypnosis sessions that are on the record the alien abduction scenario comes out without help from the therapist. Believe me, any psychologist can tell you the difference between leading questions and non-leading questions. I am a psychologist and I know the difference. Under normal circumstances no psychologist would consider the line of questioning done by people like Mack or Hopkins as suspect. However, when we are talking about alien abductions, debunkers step in and try to connect the results of the hypnosis session to their own pet theories, like false memory syndrom. If psychologist Elizabeth Loftus was on this list, I couldn't wait to debate her. >I WISH that someone would come up with solid evidence for alien life, and >I also wish that ONE abductee would come up with irrefutable proof of an >abduction. Until that happens, I'll have to believe that there are parts >of the mind that we just DON'T understand yet. There are multiple witness abductions. See http://www.ufoic.com/faq. Best evidence for abductions. __________________________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Leiden, The Netherlands \___________________________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 8 Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:44:25 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 20:04:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files >From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] >Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 22:32:40 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files Kevin wrote in response to: >>From: TotlResrch@aol.com [Kal Korff] >>Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 05:05:36 -0400 (EDT) >>To: Updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files >In fact, I think I'll take this a step further and suggest >that all those who have NEVER served in Army Aviation should >not have their comments taken seriously. (Gees, what a >convoluted sentence for a writer). These people don't seem to >understand that non-rated personnel sometimes flew AS pilots, >or AS doorgunners, but would not have that information >included in their official files. They could say that they >had flown AS a pilot, for example, and NOT be lying. >SOOOO, I don't think we have to listen to anyone who was NEVER >in Army Aviation. That is, if we follow the logic shown above. >KRandle Jeez, Kevin, have you gone completely daffy on us? Then that means we don't have to listen to you, either, eh wot? Let's all be big boys and face facts. For the most part, military review records were roughly akin to what one might expect from the good ol' boy network of country clubs and political parties. In either case you could probably cheat on your wife to your heart's content and pass out face first in the company punch bowl and it probably wouldn't go on your record--whereas every time you chased an opossum off the golf course probably would. In peacetime you might even get a bronze star for same. So why wasn't Marcel summarily court-martialed if he indeed cocked up Roswell? Simple: there was no need to, especially when the AAF didn't want to draw any additional attention to the 509th. True, Ramey was no doubt pissed at being put out for a day, and he probably chewed out Blanchard's tail to boot. But by that same afternoon, after the poorly attended press conference at Carswell--and please don't pick at my choice of words here: there was no press mob--Roswell was basically a moot issue as far as the AAF was concerned. Done, over and dead with. Had it been otherwise, we (and the public record) would probably have been subjected to a barrage of written studies and documents pertaining to "Roswell: How _Not_ to Report a Crashed UFO to the Public." Or Why We Cashiered Jesse Marcel, Sr. Instead we get contemporary documents by high-ranking military intelligence officials in which Roswell is not even mentioned, period. In other words, it's not even raised in order to be dismissed. Why? Because clearly, as far as the AAF (and later the Air Force) was concerned, Roswell was a non-UFO event from the start. Ironically, this puts KRandle in the position of denying the authenticity of the purported MJ-12 documents without being able to put anything in their place, when it's patently obvious that if Roswell _had_ occurred as he believes it did, then something very much like the hypothesized Majestic 12 would undoubtedly have been established. A similar dichotomy occurs in the case of Barney Barnett, the original source of stories involving archeologists at a crash site with bodies. Randle largely dismisses Barnett's account, but then somehow substantiates the claim that archeologists were involved. If we're going to tread easy on Marcel's military record and reputation, then I suggest we do the same with Ted Holden's reputation as well, Holden supposedly being the leader of the archeology team that chanced across a crash site with dead bodies. I'm frankly tired of hearing that he substantiated such a story when it's quite clear from Randle's own published account that the man, interviewed literally on his death bed, probably had no idea in Hades of what Randle was talking about. To maintain that he actually confirmed same, and would have said more but for the unfortunate fact of his untimely death, is, frankly, to misrepresent the dead. The height of this travesty is that Thomas J. Carey, writing in the Spring 1997 issue of the International UFO Reporter, can characterize the event, with relative impunity, as follows: "The frail Holden, in what amounted to a confession, confirmed to Randle his presence at the UFO crash site just north of Roswell those many years before, but many details, including whom he was with, were missing from his account." Indeed, and no wonder! I call on Randle to publicly correct colleague Carey's characteriztion of Holden's muddled comments as a "confession" of _anything_, let alone anything remotely pertaining to, or confirmative of, a second crash site and the presence of alien bodies. (God, I love the smell of alliteration in the morning!) I'm glad to see that KRandle, when confronted with the obvious, can disavow the testimony of Glenn Dennis, Jim Ragsdale and others. Now I await that moment when he will claim at least some responsibility for having contributed to the climate which promoted such patently unbelievable claims in the first place. That's actually a tribute, Kevin, as I don't expect Stanton Friedman to ever utter uncle, no matter how indicative the evidence to the contrary. For you, however, there's still some hope. You can join the Dark Forces now, or you can join us later. Or, in the meantime, you can continue to stake your reputation on the likes of Frankie Rowe and Frank Kaufmann. The latter you seem to support because you've seen the "documentation." But doesn't Philip Corso--who's testimony you apparently don't support--have impeccable documentation, too? If so-called documentation is the only issue, then on what other basis, pray tell, do you distinguish between Kaufmann and Corso?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 8 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: pwedel <pwedel@neptune.on.ca> Date: Thu, 8 May 97 08:24:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 19:41:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>>Jim, >>>It seems to me that the proper question is: Are contactees ever told >>>the truth? <snip> >Bill Hamilton responds, <snip> John Velez writes: >One of the most difficult things confronting both researchers and >contactees, is having to wade though all of the 'dogma' that has >formed around the subject. The simple truth is, that we don't know >'what's' going on, but we know for sure that 'something' is. Here here John! >At some point an effort has to be made for all of us to unify as a >group and begin deciding on a systematic approach to the problem >that can deliver answers. <snip> >Until actual steps are taken by 'us' to unify as a group and pool >common resources, all we're going to get is more of this cinema >verite Fellini flick called "Ufology". I for one will not weep for >its demise. I can't wait to see it all replaced by something saner >and more coherent, focused, and united in effort. I only hope that >ufology (as it exists today) is not a vampire like 'Disco' that >rises from the grave occasionally to strike fear and mortal dread >into the hearts of all warm blooded beings. Aside from the fact that 'Disco' is something that can cause me to run screaming in pain, the infighting, derision, suspicion and paranoia I have observed around people who have had extraordinary experience's visit their small quiet lives is rather disquieting. It would not take much research to see that being a contactee is not a 'club' anyone would ever (in their right ming) want to join. I would like to 'second' John's comments. The contactee's/abductee's/experiencer's (or whatever acronym you wish to apply to these people) that I have had to opportunity to speak with consistently express uncertainty in the absolute nature of this phenomenon. Those who do speak with such certainty about the phenomenon produce a certain amount of natural suspicion in me the same as someone who is absolutely certain the Kevin Randle likes to wear propellor beenies in his closet. <G>. In addressing the original question, 'are contactee's ever lied to?' , I (subjectively) feel every researcher would agree it is a very good question and one that is very difficult to scientifically verify since these beings are (seemingly) very good about cleaning up after themselves and leave so little evidence other than the fragmented memories and shattered lives of those that have come into contact with them. (and I guess the odd crashed device...) That's my 2 cents (cdn) worth. If anybody ever develops a model for finding out whether a contactee has been lied to or not please let us all know... I'm outta this thread. :-) Paul. Paul (Twigman) Wedel !-:-) There are many paths through the forest, they all lead to the other side.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 8 Re: 'Tent Footage' video sold in Italy From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 08:16:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 20:06:37 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Tent Footage' video sold in Italy >Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 20:35:29 +0001 (GMT) >From: Edoardo Russo <erusso@torino.ALPcom.it> >Subject: Tent footage video sold in Italy >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Hello All! >You may be interested in learning that the infamous "tent footage" >is presently being sold on video in thousands of newsstands all >over Italy for no more than 10 U.S. bucks. Will this be available in the US? If not, is there a way I could purchase it through you? Joel Henry ***************************************************** Minnesota MUFON Webmaster Minnesota MUFON Web Page= http://www.wavefront.com/~jhenry/index.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 8 Re: Crash in Puerto Rico From: Francisco Lopez <d005734c@dc.seflin.org> Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 02:00:16 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 19:35:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Crash in Puerto Rico Note: For security reasons I can not disclose the name and address of the author. He is also under oath. Author: "I told you to keep you eyes open from May 1997 and on." [English Translation Follows] En Lajas "uno de los lugares de mas avistamientos en Puerto Rico", como a las 9:00pm, muchas personas presenciaron un objeto grande y luminoso caher en un monte seguido de un Ruido estremesedor. Personas del Pueblo corrieron al monte para ver que fue, y fueron testigos de un area como de un kilometro quemada, animales grandes y pequeqos muertos, y lo que quedo del pasto sin quemar total mente, estava aplastado como si un rolo gigante le paso por ensima y una peste como a Asufre tan fuerte que algunos tuviero que regresar pues no la soportaban. los hombres Vieron una Luz Verde y Brillante a lo lejos, trataron de llegar al lugar de la luz, pero no pudieron ver que lo producia pues el objeto estava en un Joyanco "como desimos en Puerto Rico" bien profunda. Ya era serca de las 11:00 y estava muy oscuro y decidieron regresar para buscar ayuda, sogas, linternas mas fuertes y demas. Cuando colectaron todo y se disponian a regresar la Policia los detuvo. [English] In Lajas [SW of the Island], "one of the places with most sightings in Puerto Rico," at around 9:00 PM, a big and luminous object was seen falling by many people followed by a loud noise. People from the town ran to the mountain to see what happened and witnessed an area of about one kilometer burned, big and small animals dead and whatever remained of the grass unburned crushed down like if a big roll crushed everything. There were a very foul smell like sulfur. The stench was so intense many had to return as they could not stand it. Thwe men saw a big and luminoud green light and try to reach it but it was on a very deep valley. It was around 11:00 PM and it was very dark then when they decided to go back to town to seek for help, ropes, lanterns. When they came back the Police stop them. Ya de madrugada la policia corria de arriba Para bajo. Primero dijero "que fue una persona en una motora que quemo el pasto" Ja, Ja. Cuando los testigo le cuestionaron que "era Imposible que una motora Volara, cayera del cielo", cambiaro "que fue un meteorito" y cuando se les pregunto, "pues si fue un meteorito que diablos ase los Federales "FBI" en todo esto" y "por que votaron a la policia local del area" y "porque la presencia de helicopteros de la Guardia Nacional", no tuvieron contestacion. Horas antes de todo esto numerosos vesinos del lugar afirmaron a ver visto UFO's en el area y algunos llamaron a la policia para reportarlos y en otras partes de la Isla, como Ponce, que una seqora gravo en su video camara una Luz brillante volando serca de un cerro. [English] During late night and early morning, the police was running around al over the place. First they said that there was a motorcycle, HA! HA!, as if motorcycles fly, then they changed the story to a meteorite. When asked why the FBI has to do ther with a metorite and why he local police was kicked out from the area and why the presence of helicopters and the national guard, they had no answer. Hours before this, redisents reported UFOs in the area an called the police. Some reports came from other parts of the Island. A woman in Ponce [s of the island, named after Ponce de Leon], videotaped the bright light flying over a hill. Ya todo fue tapado, no hay ninguna evidencia, nada paso, solo queda el recuerdo de la caida de una estrella, y el pasto quemado y aplastado. Son muy eficientes mi Amigo, una unidad especializada con practica. [English] Everything has been covered up. There is no evidence. Nothing happened. No only stands the memory of the fall of a star and the grass burned and crushed. They are very efficient my friend. A unit specialized with experience. Por fin cuando los reporteros tubiero acceso al lugar y al espacio aereo, la unica evidencia que quedo en el lugar era el pasto quemado, aplastado y los animales grandes muertos, como vacas. [English] When finally the reporters had access to the ground area and aerial space the only evidence that remained was the burned and crushed grass, and the animals, big and small dead. Los avistamientos son muchos en Fajardo, Naguabo, Cabo Rojo, Lajas, Loiza, Arecibo y otros en los untimos dias. [English] The sightings are many in Fajardo, Naguabo and Loiza [NE of the Island], Cabo Rojo and Lajas [SW of the Island] and Arecibo [N of the Island] during the last days. De aqui en adelante seran mas y mas los avistamientos, no solo en Puerto Rico, Sur America y otros. [English] >From this time forward, there will be more and more sightings, not only in Puerto Rico, [also] in South America and other [places]. Anotalo, te lo dije ase un Aqo, lo grande esta por venir. [English] Write it down, I told you a year ago, the big thing is still to come. Ranger leads the way, Airborne.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 8 Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:01:20 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 20:16:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files >Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:23:29 +0200 (MET DST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files >However, to lose documents or record facts incompletely is not >unique for Army Aviation, USAF, other air forces or the military >in general. It is happening all around the world in every >organization and usually nobody bothers. I think what is really >wrong in some parts of UFO research is that some UFO researchers >assume there is fraud, deceit and cover up in everything they >don't understand themselves. This is leading me to think that >some UFO researchers should learn more about the world we are >living in before they qualify as researchers in the UFO field >which is only part of the world. That way we could be spared >much misinformation, unfounded allegations and the ensuing >confusion and heated debate. This is my point exactly. Because something is not recorded in the record does not mean it is a lie. To make the case that is attempted here, we must ASSUME that the military record is 100% accurate, that Bob Pratt's interview transcript is 100% accurate, and that there are no alternative answers that could reflect an honest mistake on the part of the record, Pratt or Marcel. When we read the interview CAREFULLY, we find that it isn't as black and white as others would have us believe. That's why I kept pointing out that Marcel said that he had flown AS a pilot, not that he said he WAS a pilot. A very real difference. There are many aspects of that interview that have checked out. I don't think it is appropriate to assassinate the character of a man because we don't happen to like what he said. And, with the data as vague as it is, I don't think it is appropriate to make the allegations that have been made. In my own case, I can see parallels between what Marcel said and what I experienced. It means that this situation has gotten out of hand. It means that the evidence for Marcel LYING is not as clear as we're being told. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 8 Earth to Kal Korff (Part 1) From: DRudiak@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:22:06 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 21:45:34 -0400 Subject: Earth to Kal Korff (Part 1) In a message dated 97-05-04 05:45:53 EDT, Kal Korff wrote: >From: TotlResrch@aol.com >Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 18:26:56 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Kal Korff to DRudiak >>From: DRudiak@aol.com >>Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:48:02 -0400 (EDT) >>To: Updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Korff's New Book on Roswell >Dear Mr. Rudiak, >Just a short response for now, as I am VERY BUSY at the moment - >Will respond more in depth later as time permits: >1) Since you have NOT READ MY NEW ROSWELL BOOK YET, you are in >NO POSITION to COMMENT ON ITS CONTENTS!! And until now I've withheld comment. I haven't seen your book in the bookstores yet (and according to Bob Shell, that's because it hasn't been released yet). But then you wrote that Marcel was an "unreliable witness," followed by the mysterious "Pamela7," also with an AOL address and no member profile, who said EXACTLY the same thing, and gave your nonreleased book a glowing review.. The anonymous "Pamela7" also claimed that your book had Marcel's military evaluation files which clearly demonstrated that Marcel had been reprimanded for what happneded at Roswell. The FACT is, there is no reprimand for anything in there, much less Roswell. Marcel aways received excellent reviews for his work. >2) I DID NOT say any such thing on MSNBC about "aluminized >mylar." Those words are YOURS, NOT MINE! You are correct here. My fault for working in haste off my memory rather than checking the MSNBC story. HOWEVER, they do say, "And the strange debris Marcel and others found apparently wasn't so otherworldly after all: the top-secret Project Mogul spy balloons that were in a train 600 feet in length used a strong foil backed by plastic for their radar reflectors." The foil was neither strong, nor was it backed by plastic (as you admit below)." You will have to justify or account for these statements which WERE in the MSNBC story. > If you're going to criticize me, and quote words in doing so, >then at least get them right! Here's what you claim said: >>I have not read Korff's book yet, but I know of at least one >>other serious error in it from comments about it on the <MSNBC >>Web page. Korff alleged the mysterious "memory foil" was >>nothing but aluminized mylar used on the Mogul balloon radar >>reflectors. This is nothing but a stale debunker urban myth of >>unknown origin. The Mogul documents published by the Air Force >>plus newspaper accounts of the day clearly indicate that the >>radar reflectors were constructed of plain ordinary aluminum >>foil. >As I've stated, I never, to the best of my knowledge, used the >words "aluminized mylar."! Is there even any such thing?? You've obviously led a protected life. Ever opened a package of potato chips? That's aluminized mylar. It's hard to tear, but easy to cut and burns like hell. That doesn't fit the description of the Roswell debris of Marcel and OTHERS. In addition, while mylar is crease-resistant, it is far from crease-proof. Various people in addition to Marcel, spoke of the "plastic" or elastic-like properties of the material, in that it unfolded itself to perfect smoothness after being crushed or wadded up, or wouldn't hold a crease or dent. Mylar will partly unfold, but even a moderate wadding up will leave creases in the material. As to aluminum foil, it doesn't burn or smoke (but backed with paper it would). It is easily cut, torn, creased, and doesn't unfold. In addition various witnesses described the metal-lke foil as dull grey in color, more like lead foil. Aluminized mylar and aluminum foil are both shiny. That's also quite evident in photos taken of this particular model radar reflector. So to dismiss the Roswell story as a Mogul balloon, you also have to ignore the testimony about the properties of the debris of a fair number of witnesses who independently CORROBORATED Marcel's descriptions. To my mind, that's playing fast and loose with the evidence. >So once again, if your going to criticze me for something I've >said, then please make sure that I really did say this!! I >CHALLENGE you to find any posting or direct quote from me (ever >anywhere,) where I used the words "aluminized mylar."!! Correct, you didn't say "aluminized mylar," in the MSNC article. But they DID have you saying that the aluminum foil on the radar reflectors was "strong" and backed by plastic. Both statements are wrong. >You are also WRONG about the composition of the Mogul-related >radar reflectors. As you know, aluminum foil is coprised of >aluminum and has NO BACKING. Mogul radar reflectors, however, >had a paper-like backing adhered to it, I am well aware of this. I've read the Mogul documents, the Air Force Report, and the statements in 1947 newspapers which all say this. I've even written about it on Usenet (go check DejaNews). Were you aware that the Air Force Report also says that they didn't always use paper backing? It's not listed, e.g., in the list of materials on the published radar reflector engineering schematic. Now that you've stated that the foil was backed with paper, why does MSNBC have you saying they were backed with plastic? How did this aluminum foil get so "tough" that it couldn't be cut with knives or torn? How did it unfold itself and leave no creases? Why didn't the alleged paper backing burn? Do you know how lightweight these radar reflectors were? They were 100 grams total according to Charles Moore. That weight had to include everything: the balsa wood framework, the foil, and all that super-paper, super-glue, and super-tape, that allegedly made the balsa and foil so incredibly resistant to damage. Let's try a little thought experiment. Rebuild the radar reflector to scale using the same materials. After you've put the balsa frame together (without any glue reinforcement), and use balsa sticks only 7 mm across (very fragile), I calculate the weight of the balsa alone at around 70 grams (very light balsa according to my CRC handbook has a density of around 0.14 gm/cm^3; the engineering schematic for the radar reflector shows about 10 m or 1000 cm of sticks). Now that's a very conservative estimate of the balsa weight. The Air Force measurements in their report placed the various sticks in the Fort Worth photos as being either .4 inch (1 cm) or .8 inch (2 cm) across. That leaves only 30 grams for the foil and paper backing, or roughly an ounce. Again, according to the schematic diagram of the Rawin target reflector, there would have been 18 square feet of foil and 18 square feet of backing paper (if the foil was fully backed). That's the equivalent of 30 pages of 8-1/2 x 11 inch paper just for the paper backing alone. The fact of the matter is, you can't make all that foil and paper weigh just 30 grams or so unless it is EXTREMELY thin or use something like a loose mesh paper. Even if you double or triple the weight allotment for the foil and paper, you still arrive at this conclusion. 30 pages of typing paper alone weigh around 4 ounces. And we still haven't accounted for the weight of the mysterious super-glue and super-tape, or things like metal eyelets, staples, or joints.. The point is, the radar reflectors had to be made of very fragile materials to keep them very lightweight. They were aptly described as balsa kites. When asked in the Berlitz/Moore's "Roswell Incident" whether the foil could be easily torn, Fort Worth weather officer Irving Newton said, "You would have to be careful not to tear it. The metal involved was like an extremely thin Alcoa wrap. It was very flimsy." So once again, where does this "tough" aluminum foil comment come from, and backed with plastic at that? > a characteristic TESTIFIED TO BY SEVERAL ROSWELL WITNESSES! THIS >IS FACT YOU CONVENIENTLY IGNORE!! Unlike you, I am ignoring nothing. Name even one DEBRIS FIELD witness who said that the foil-ike debris was backed by paper. Marcel never mentioned it (He said there was an extremely tough parchment-like substance covered with hieroglyphics on the field, but nothing about it being attached to the foil or being like paper; he couldn't cut or burn it). Marcel Jr. is adament there was no such thing as paper or paper backing in the debris his father brought home. (He told me the Fort Worth photos were "hoaxed.") Rickett never mentioned it. Not even Mogul "star witnesses" Sheridan Cavitt and Bessie Brazel Schreiber mentioned it. Schreiber said the "foil" was "rubber-like" on one side and grayish. The paper described in the Air Force Report and by Charles Moore as being white or brown, and certainly not rubberlike. There is no match to Mogul here. She did mention in another statement that, "There was what appeared to be pieces of heavily waxed paper and a sort of aluminum-like foil. Some of these pieces had something like numbers and lettering on them, but there were no words that we were able to make out. ...It looked like numbers mostly, as least I assumed them to be numbers. They were written out like you would write numbers in columns to do an addition problem. But they didn't look like the numbers we use at all. What gave me the idea they were numbers, I guess, was the way they were all ranged out in columns." Again, this is a lousy match for Mogul. Since when was the paper backing covered with indecipherable writing? She sure isn't describing "flower-tape" here. And what part of the Mogul train fit the description of "heavily waxed paper? Again it doesn't sound like the white/ brown very thin paper that would have been used on the radar reflectors. It sounds more like the "parchment" covered with writing that Marcel described. The only witness statment that even comes close to "paper backing" was that from Mac Brazel in his newspaper interview, AFTER Gen. Ramey had already debunked the whole thing as a weather balloon. Brazel was quoted as saying that they "came upon a large area of bright wreckage made up of rubber strips, tinfoil, a rather tough paper, and sticks." That's about it. Brazel was in military custody at the time, and remained there for the next week. There are a lot of witnesses to that. He told radio reporter Frank Joyce shortly after his interview that he was forced to change his story. If you tried to introduce Brazel's newspaper comments into evidence in a court of law, they would be thrown out because they were tainted by possible coercion. Brazel's newspaper comments also don't match those made in private WITHOUT coercion to his son Bill and his neighbors the Proctors. The properties he described were quite different and matched those of other witnesses. Among other things, they said Brazel described foil that spontaneously unfolded itself, couldn't be cut with knife, and wouldn't burn. Similar properties were described of the other materials. Loretta Proctor testified to seeing a small stick that Brazel brought over which likewise couldn't be cut or marked and was undamaged by flame. I'd love to know how one makes very lightweight balsa wood that has those properties. Proctor's description of the wood-like or plasic-like stick, BTW, matched Marcel's almost exactly. So did Bill Brazel's. Bill Brazel's description of the debris field, as related to him by his father, also closely matched Marcel's. It sure as hell didn't match Sheridan Cavitt's "20 square feet." Another thing related by Floyd Proctor was "[Brazel described it as] the strangest stuff he had ever seen. ...He described the stuff as being very odd. He said whatever the junk was, it had designs on it that reminded him of Chinese and Japanese designs. It wasn't paper because he couldn't cut it with his knife, and the metal was different from anything he had ever seen. He said the designs looked like the kind of stuff you would find on firecracker wrappers ... some sort of figures all done up in pastels, but not writing like we would do it." "It wasn't paper because he couldn't cut it with his knife." Why, how remarkably similar to that "liar" Marcel's description. And note the absence of the infamous "flower patterns." We would very much like to know what this remarkable "paper" used to back the tinfoil was made of, that was extremely lightweight (remember the weight limitations on the radar reflectors?), yet so readily resisted the attack of a knife or a cigarette lighter. Can I buy some today? Even the Fort Worth photos don't clearly indicate any sort of paper backing on the displayed radar reflector. "Reluctant" (Walt Whitmore Jr.) said he saw balloon debris but backed with a WHITE, linen-like CLOTH, which he claims to still have stashed away somewhere, but nobody has ever seen it. His story has also completely changed from what he said in 1979. For example, back then he said the foil was dull gray like lead foil and couldn't be cut or torn. Another supposed debris field witness was AP reporter Jason Kellahin. He claimed to have seen a balloon crash in which the foil material looked like "pieces of SILVER colored fabric, perhaps ALUMINIZED cloth." Does anybody see some discrepancies here between Reluctant's, Kellahin's, and Schreiber's descriptions? The biggest problem with Kellahin's story was that it was IMPOSSIBLE for him to have made it out to Mac Brazel's place in the time he had. He had to drive from Albuquerque to Roswell in time to interview Brazel in Roswell that evening, yet still have time for a very long detour out to Brazel's place where he claimed to have seen the debris. He couldn't do it. Statements by Charles Moore or other Mogul people are worthless since they never saw the actual debris. Irving Newton also was not a debris field witness and very likely saw substituted debris (we can get into this in great detail if necessary). Same for photographer/reporter C. Bond Johnson. Johnson also reported the powerful stench of rotting rubber weather balloon in Ramey's office. This was the FIRST such report of any odor associated with the debris. NOBODY mentioned anything about the smell of rubber debris prior to this, not the Marcels, the Brazels, or anybody else that came in contact with it. Now by some remarkable coincidence, Johnson saw the balloon debris AFTER both that "liar" Marcel and Gen. Dubose said Ramey swapped in an ordinary weather balloon for the REAL debris. Do you suppose that has something to do with nobody mentioning rotting neoprene rubber before hand? So please tell us about all those witnesses you claim there are who described ordinary white or brown paper backing on the foil. I can't find them anywhere. >3) You are also VERY WRONG ABOUT MARCEL'S RECORDS. How do you >EXPLAIN THE ACT THAT MARCEL LIED ABOUT BEING A PILOT Marcel went into the service as an air intelligence officer, not a pilot. That's what he was trained in and that was his official job designation. If he had flown unofficially during his stint in the Air Force, it is very unlikely to show up in his military record. According to Marcel Jr. in an e- mail conversation I had with him, his father did "bootleg" planes on occasion while in the course of duties. So there's one witness to Marcel flying planes. If you call Marcel Sr. a liar, you may as well go Marcel Jr. a liar as well. Please note Kevin Randle's own personal wartime experiences where others not rated as pilots had "stick time" in his helicopter. Randle also personally knows of many other instances where people flew and none of this is in their personal file, since it wasn't their official job. Marcel likewise says he sometimes acted as a pilot during combat missions in the South Pacific. What did Marcel ACTUALLY say about his experience as a pilot in Bob Pratt's interview of him? This is the transcription as given in Karl Pflock's "Roswell in Perspective." Pflock notes that he changed Pratt's text "to fully state Pratt's questions, which he set down in short form in his transcript..." In other words, these aren't necessarily Pratt's exact words. Pflock added, "...and by adding a limited amount of bracketed material to provide clarification. Marcel's words are exactly as transcribed by Pratt...." So we are depending on the accuracy of Pratt's transcription and Pflock's interpretation of it. Pratt: What do you think this thing was? Marcel: Well, as far as I know, or can surmise, it -- I was pretty well acquainted with most of the things that were in the air at the time, not only from my own military aircraft but also in a lot of foreign countries, and I still believe it was nothing that came from earth.... Pratt: You had three thousand hours as a pilot -- Marcel: Right, [and] eight thousand hours [total] flying time. Note how the bracketed material added by Pflock alters the meaning. Without it, Marcel's response really reads, "Right, eight thousand hours flying time." This unaltered statement by Marcel doesn't have him claiming any actual air time as a pilot. The statement to that effect came from Pratt (assuming Pratt's statement is accurately represented), not Marcel. From the wording, Marcel may actually have been correcting Pratt's statement, or simply re- emphasizing his flight experience after first stating he was well acquainted with all things airborne. Robert Todd, however, used the statement with the bracketed words and said Marcel claimed to have 3000 hours as a pilot. That's simply not true. It's a case of Todd putting words in Marcel's mouth which he didn't say. Earlier in the interview are the following statements attributed to Marcel: "I had flying experience before going in service -- started flying in 1928 -- being in [the] air was not foreign to me. Did lot of flying, combat flying, [in] B-24s." Here are some other statements: Pratt: Was the flying you did before the war part of your work? Marcel: Private pilot. Pratt: What work did you do before the war? Marcel: I was a cartographer, map maker. Worked for U.S. Engineers and Shell Oil Company. I was working for Shell Oil Company as a photographer when the war began. All my map making for the Engineers and Shell Oil Company was derived from aerial photographs. Except for the one terse statement "private pilot," Marcel made no specific representation of piloting done before the war, when, how much, or in what capacity. This was still in the very early days of aviation. For all we know, Marcel could have gotten started on a biplane crop duster in 1928 and there would be no record of it. The FAA was formed that year, but until then there was no official government agency for licensing pilots, and many pilots doubtlessly flew for years afterwards without licenses, until the bureaucratic machinery took hold. Lindbergh was an unlicensed pilot when he flew the Atlantic in 1927. So was everybody back then. Marcel was also in the Louisiana National Guard from 1926-1929 and may possibly have been introduced to aviation at that time. This was 70 years ago, and it would be very difficult if not impossible to verify any of this. As so many of the charges of "liar" against Marcel, they are so easily made, but so hard to disprove given the passage of time and the difficulty of tracking down obscure records, which may or may not exist. As to other flying experience before the war, Marcel perhaps suggested that he did some of the aerial photography used in his map making, but again his statement is ambiguous. Also there was nothing here in which he stated that he flew the planes while doing this. Marcel then spent 8 years in the Air Force as an Air Intelligence officer. He could easily have compiled many thousand of hours of flight time, particularly during his 2-1/2 years in the South Pacific. This would have included the 468 hours of air combat time that he claimed, plus noncombat aerial intelligence, and simply flying from one field of operation to another across the vast Pacific. (He was listed as participating in 12 different campaigns.) Just flying to and from the South Pacific by prop plane back in 1943 could easily have taken 100 hours all by itself. Marcel was also in the South Pacific during Operation Crossroads in 1946 (he handled staff briefings and security for the 509th and was commended for his job by Gen. Ramey), and all his various other air intelligence and training assignments while in the U.S. would have added to his flight time. Given his various responsibilities, Marcel doubtlessly spent many hours in the air from 1928-1950 (and perhaps afterwards -- he wasn't specific), just like he said, although it would probably be impossible to verify just how much, either as a passenger or as a pilot. So what we have here is an absence of evidence one way or the other. The only thing mysterious to my mind is why Marcel didn't list any flying experience he may have had when he applied for the Air Force Reserve in 1942. Perhaps he didn't think there was enough to be worth noting, or it was the wrong type of experience, or it was too long ago to be relevant, or he lacked documentation (no license), or perhaps he wasn't interested in being a Reserve pilot. But all that's just conjecture. It's also just conjecture at this point that he lied about being able to pilot a plane. >AND THAT HE HAD A DEGREE IN PHYSICS FROM LOUISIANA STATE >UNIVERSITY, WHEN THE TRUTH IS HE DID NOT! Marcel never said he received a degree in physics from Louisiana State. (And you accuse me of inventing things!) He noted in his record that he had 1-1/2 years of undergraduate education at LSU majoring in physics. This was at the very beginning of the Great Depression, and it seems Marcel probably quit to get work. A college education was more of a luxury back then when people were worried about putting food on the table. In the Bob Pratt interview, Pratt has Marcel saying that he received a degree in nuclear physics from George Washington University in Washington D.C. The most likely time this would have happened would have been when he worked for the Special Weapons Program in Washington, where part of his job was to evaluate intelligence on Soviet nuclear weapons capability and testing. Col. McDuffie in his evaluation of Marcel on June 30, 1949, wrote, "He is a very intelligent officer and has a very wide range of capabilities. He has had experience in the intelligence field in almost all its aspects from the lowest to the highest limits. He has an excellent technical background, is a first class cartographer, draftsman, illustrator and presentation man..." Hmmm. Seems like the man received some technical education along the way. Marcel, e.g., worked as an aerial cartographer for Shell Oil in Houston before the war, and one of the places he said he "attended" was the U. of Houston. On July 30, 1950 he noted that "Major Marcel is an alert and forward looking officer who reads and studies regularly in his fields of interest." Would it be stretching it too far to consider that among Marcel's fields of interest at this time considering his job was nuclear physics? Might he have been taking night classes or correspondence courses through GWU at this time, but this isn't in GWU records because of Marcel's Top Secret position? This could have been a security measure. Or could 50 year old records be misfiled, destroyed, or buried someplace where some files clerk can't find them? I think these are all distinct possibilities. Unless they can be exhaustively ruled out, I think it's a bit premature to declare that Marcel lied about this. It is also possible he took correspondence courses following his stint in the service and received a degree afterwards. People do get degrees later in life. Has any checked into this? > ALSO, IF MARCEL WAS SO "RELIABLE" THEN WHY DID HE LIE >(BLATANTLY) ABOUT HAVING SHOT DOWN 5 ENEMY AIRCRAFT AND BEING >AWARDED FIVE AIR MEDALS WHEN HE CERTAINLY WASN'T?? Kevin Randle has already dealt with these issues. For example, Randle said he had personally received 41 air medals, but only two are recorded in his military file. Marcel said he received five air medals, but his record shows only 2. Marcel spent two and half years in the South Pacific as an air and squadron intelligence officer. He said he spent 468 hours in air combat. That's very plausible given the length of time he was in the South Pacific and represents dozens of missions. It would be surprising if he received ONLY two air medals given that many combat flight hours. The liar Marcel also said he received a Bronze Star, and his record lists it among his medals. But there's no citation for it in his record. This means the record is incomplete. There are other gaps in it as well. (I note another one below about his initial assignment to Washington in 1942.) In order to denigrate Marcel's claims of combat flying, Robert Todd has even gone so far as to claim that NONE of the hours of Marcel's intelligence flight time were spent on combat missions. But the record's two citations for air medals say otherwise. E.g., the one he received 11 Aug 1944 from Lt. Gen. Kenney states, "For meritorious achievement while participating in sustained operational flight missions from 4 Dec. 1943 to 26 April 1944 in the Southwest Pacific area during which hostile contact was probable and expected. These operations consisted of bombing missions against enemy airdromes and installations and attacks on enemy naval vessels and shipping. The courage and devotion to duty displayed during these flights are worthy of commendation." The second air medal had the same wording. Marcel's service record also lists 12 different battles and campaigns that Marcel was involved in during his 29 month stint in the South Pacific. So what did Todd base his charge of "no combat time" on? Absolutely nothing but his personal conjecture. This is typical of the distortions of Marcel's record by Todd. Also, according to Kevin Randle, only the Bob Pratt interview claims Marcel said that he shot down five enemy planes. This was from a transcription of a no longer existing tape. Others, however, have said Marcel only claimed to have shot down one plane in combat. I certainly don't find the latter claim to be implausible given Marcel's combat time. But for certain his military record shows two air medals plus a number of other medals and commendations. It also states that the air medals were received while flying in combat sitations. (Continued in Part 2)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 8 Earth to Kal Korff (Part 2) From: DRudiak@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 22:28:09 -0400 Subject: Earth to Kal Korff (Part 2) Kal Korff continues his tirade against Jesse Marcel: >HE ALSO LIED ABOUT ENTERING THE ARMY as an aide to general Hap >Arnold! How do you explain this? Marcel was an expert aerial cartographer, a rare commodity, and very valuable for intelligence purposes. This was the start of the war for the U.S., and accurate maps were in big demand by the military. That the AAF wanted Marcel for these skills is pretty clearly indicated in the application for appointment process. Marcel merely applied to be a 2nd lieutenant in the Air Force Reserve Combat Command. However he was recommended for full appointment to active duty in the Army Air Force just three weeks later as a Photo Interpretation Officer, after first completing Air Intelligence School, Univ. of Maryland. This was forwarded to the Commanding General (not specified). Two weeks later (Feb. 19) Col. Davison, Chief of Air Staff, A-1, seconded the recommendation and forwarded it to the Adjutant General (not specified). Davison also recommended that the usual educational qualification (college degree) be waived in this case, and also noted that there was no suitable qualified reserve officer to fill this position. (Marcel was also below weight, but this medical requirement was likewise waived.) The Air Force obviously wanted and valued Marcel's many years of training in aerial photography interpretation and map drawing. Davison likewise recommended that Marcel be given the assignment of "Photo Interpretation Officer, Combat Unit, after going to Intelligence School, University of Maryland, College Park, Maryland (right next door to Washington D.C.), Air Force Combat Command." Moving forward to March 6, we find "Special Orders No. 58." It states that Marcel's effective date of duty was April 10, 1942, and his station of assignment was "with AC AAF, Washington, D.C." Again on April 30 is a "Report of Entry on Active Duty." It states that Marcel reported for active duty April 12, AAF Washington, D.C. So Marcel's first temporary assigment was in Washington, which just happened to be where Gen. Hap Arnold would have been. Marcel didn't say when or how the recommendation for him to attend air intelligence school was made in his Bob Pratt interview. It's quite possible that Marcel's map-making ability and photo-interpretation skills was brought to Gen. Arnold's attention during Marcel's application process and Arnold also recommended Marcel for air intelligence training before his entry into the service. Or it's possible that Marcel DID work for Gen. Arnold in some capacity while he was stationed in Washington, perhaps as a map maker or map interpreter. It wasn't until June 23 that Marcel was transferred to the Air Intelligence School in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, which could very well have been on Arnold's recommendation. (Arnold was born and raised in Pennsylvania, which may or may not be relevant.) This would ALL be consistent with what Marcel said and wouldn't necessarily be in his military record. In fact there is NOTHING in his record about what he was doing between reporting for duty on April 12 and going to Harrisburg on June 23, not even about attending Air Intelligence School at the nearby U. of Maryland, as was initially recommended. Yet one presumes he did something. Could it be he was working for Gen. Arnold instead in some capacity? This absence of detail in Marcel's record is very typical, and probably of all military records in general. They are very sketchy and incomplete, and don't record day-to-day activities. I think Kevin Randle's comments about this are apropos. Randle said he worked briefly as a general's aide and there's no mention of it in his record either. With the AAF wanting Marcel for his aerial mapmaking and interpretation skills, and with Marcel being stationed in Washington his first two months, and with no definitive record of what Marcel was doing at that time, can Kal Korff or Robert Todd definitively state that Marcel did NOT act as an aide to Hap Arnold, or that Arnold played no role in Marcel going to intelligence school in Harrisburg? Would Marcel have been a likely aide to Arnold? Various later evaluations in Marcel's record do mention Marcel's diverse technical background and his outstanding briefing and presentation capability. Gen. Ramey commended him for it in 1946. Col. McDuffie did likewise in his two evaluations he wrote while Marcel was the Officer in Charge of the War Room at the Top Secret Special Weapons Program in Washington. It says he gave the brass-in-charge briefings on changes in intelligence. This also included writing special reports for the Commanding General. None of these briefings or reports for the generals is recorded in his military record, but he did them nonetheless. It was part of his job description noted by McDuffie. This of course proves nothing, but it wouldn't be too surprising if Marcel also acted in a similar capacity to Gen. Arnold, even at the start of his career. His map making and interpretation were in demand. So where's the PROOF of Kal Korff's allegations that Marcel lied about being an aide to Gen. Arnold when he first entered the service? Marcel entered in April, just like he said. (check) He said he entered as a 2nd lieutenant (check). He was first stationed in Washington at AAF, placing him in proximity to Gen. Arnold (check) He had technical skills upon entry that were sought after by the AAF (check) and may have been immediately utilized by the high command, putting him in contact with Gen. Arnold (no way to currently verify, but consistent). It was noted in his record that he had excellent briefing skills and later frequently briefed the brass (check). There is nothing in Marcel's record about him attending Air Intel. School in Maryland as first recommended. Marcel said he was later sent to Air Intelligence School, and in fact was sent to Pennsylvania after being in Washington for 2-1/2 months. (check). Marcel said this was upon the recommendation of Gen. Arnold (no way to currently verify, but consistent). I don't see any obvious lying here, just some things that can't be verified, but are nonetheless consistent with Marcel's statements. Just to demonstrate how much Robert Todd (and I'll presume Kal Korff, who has done nothing put parrot Todd so far) distorted the actual record, this is what Todd wrote about all this. TODD: "Marcel claimed he was an aide to General Hap Arnold, and that it had been Arnold who decided he should go to intelligence school. This claim is false. As already noted when Marcel applied for an appointment as a second lieutenant, he was still working for the Shell Oil Company in Houston, Texas. When Marcel accepted the appointment and entered active duty, his very first assignment was as a student at the Army Air Forces Intelligence School (AAFIS) in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania." FALSE, or should I say a blatant LIE? Marcel's FIRST assignment was in Washington, D.C., not Pennsylvania, which IS CLEARLY INDICATED in Marcel's record. The initial recommended intelligence school assignment was also there, NOT in Pennsylvania. TODD: "The decision to send him to intelligence school had been made by the Air Force even before Marcel accepted the appointment and before he served even one day in the Army Air Forces." Yes, but at the U. of Maryland (not Harrisburg), but there's no record of him ever going there in his service file. Marcel may have been doing something else while he was in Washington for 2-1/2 months (working as aide for Hap Arnold?). There is no record of who recommended Marcel for LATER training at the intelligence school in Pennsylvania. It could have been Arnold for all we know. TODD: "Not only was the decision to send Marcel to intelligence school made before Marcel even entered the service, but it was also decided that, after completing intelligence school, Marcel would be assigned to a combat unit as a 'Photo Interpretation Officer', both decisions undoubtedly based on Marcel's employment at Shell Oil where he made maps from aerial photographs." COMMENT: Yeah, so what? Is Todd making a point here? This has nothing to do with the veracity of Marcel's remarks. If anything, Todd is agreeing that Marcel's aerial mapmaking skills could also have made him in demand at the Pentagon when he was first assigned to the AAF in Washington. TODD: "Marcel's claim was a blatant falsehood. Moreover the nature of his claim does not lend itself to an innocent explanation, except perhaps for delusions of grandeur." COMMENT: The only blatant falsehoods I've seen in all this were Todd's absolutely false claims that Marcel's FIRST assignment was at Air Intelligence School in Pennsylvania and that this was recommended before Marcel entered the service. Both statements are contradicted by Marcel's own record. His FIRST assignment was Washington D.C. and the Air Intelligence School in College Park, Maryland, where he may very well have come into contact with Hap Arnold in some capacity. Arnold may then have recommended his transfer to Pennsylvania. There's currently NO evidence to contradict this. >There are other lies that Marcel made, need I recount the pain >of all of them to you? I think I've read just about all of them by Robert Todd, you, and others. I know they have caused Dr. Marcel and probably other members of his family great pain. (He told me Todd even sent mail personally attacking him.) That's why such sweeping accusations of lying against a dead man with a SPOTLESS military career shouldn't be done lightly and without VERY good evidence. Maybe Kal Korff should take that lesson to heart. Most of the charges against Marcel Sr. are based on innuendo, conjecture, absence of evidence, omissions of evidence, assertions of fact not in evidence, mistatement of facts, and quoting out of context. Look at how Robert Todd deliberately misrepresented Marcel's first assignment in order to accuse him of lying about being an aide to Hap Arnold. Look at the other ways in which Marcel's record has been cleverly twisted to place him in as bad light as possible. Look at how absolutely NOTHING is ever said about the high ratings and praise Marcel received in his evaluations, including from the likes of Col. Blanchard and Gen. Ramey, who knew very well what happened at Roswell. It's blantantly obvious what's taking place here. Marcel is being treated as THE pivotal witness in the Roswell case, and destroying the man and his credibility through propaganda techiques and plain old character assassination is considered crucial for debunking the Roswell case, for whatever the personal agendas of the various debunkers might be. But Marcel's Roswell story doesn't stand alone. It is completely backed up IN DETAIL by the testimony of others involved, such as Gen. Dubose, Gen. Exon, and Louis Rickett, other debris and military witnesses to the events, plus surviving documentation from the day. A Mogul star witness like Sheridan Cavitt, on the other hand, is blatantly lying on a number of points (like the tiny balloon crash no bigger than his living room or never meeting Mac Brazel). There are numerous changes of story and internal logical contradictions in his testimony. Nobody backs up Cavitt's story, not even his own assistant Rickett. We can go into the various points one by one. So why is his testimony credible and Marcel's isn't? Why is Cavitt the trustworthy one and Marcel the "liar." Simply because Cavitt said "balloon" and Marcel said "not of this earth." Do you think Kal Korff poured over Cavitt's every word and spent half a dozen pages debunking him, like he did Marcel? Are you kidding? > Until you can "innocently" justify Marcel's tall tales, (Again, does this sound like Kal Korff parroting Robert Todd, or what?) Kan Kal Korff innocently justify Cavitt's various "tall tales?" How about other so-called "Mogul witnesses," like Irving Newton or Karl Pflock's "Reluctant," who have had BIG changes in testimony over the years? > I am afraid that there's not much to discuss here. There's lots to discuss and there are many decent explanations. E.g., Marcel said he wrote the intelligence report on the first Soviet A-blast read by Truman to the nation. The only thing demonstrably wrong with this statement was that Truman didn't read a report over the air, but issued a written press release. Todd and others have tried to make a lot of this, but it's really a nitpick. The real question is whether Marcel might have written such an intelligence report used by the White House. Todd claims no, but Marcel's record actually shows it was VERY possible. As I've noted before, Col. McDuffie's evaluations of Marcel note that his job responsibilities with the Special Weapons Program included being in charge of evaluating all new intelligence and writing special reports for the Commanding General. McDuffie also noted that Marcel was one of the best presentation and briefing men in the Air Force. This sounds like exactly the person who would have written an intelligence summary destined for consumption by nontechnical politicians in the White House, but officially signed by Marcel's higher ups. Marcel wouldn't necessarily have gotten credit. Almost all of the detail and grunt work in any large organization is done by underlings, while those in charge take credit by signing off on the work. Marcel's record says for a fact that he wrote special intelligence reports for his uppers, but none of the reports are recorded in Marcel's file. That's not surprising, since that isn't the purpose of a personal military file. (It also isn't surprising that there would be no record of a special report being written by Sheridan Cavitt about Roswell in his file either. This proves nothing one way or the other about whether such a report was written. There's absolutely nothing in Marcel's record either about the period covering the Roswell incident or for several months afterward.) Some of Todd's allegations are incredible nitpicks of absolutely no significance. For example, Marcel remembered in one interview being transferred to the Special Weapons Program in the latter part of 1947, when it was really Dec. 1948. This was obviously nothing more than a very minor memory error or slip of the tongue that anyone could make 30 years after the fact. Todd, however, tried to make a Federal case out of it, claiming that Marcel deliberately lied about the date. His ridiculous psychobabble theory was that Marcel was trying to make himself look better by claiming he was quickly transferred to a position of higher responsiblity after bungling Roswell. [As a point of fact, it WAS a position of higher responsibility, TOP SECRET, and of extreme sensitivity. Why would they send him there if he bungled Roswell? Not only does Todd's theory make absolutely no sense, Todd treats Marcel's new position like it was some nothing post, and mentions nothing at all about Marcel's job responsibilities or the excellent reviews Marcel received for his work.] In a similar vein, Marcel said he was promoted to Lt. Colonel in Dec. 1947, but he didn't find out about it until after he left the service, because was too busy and didn't bother to read his personal file. Todd excorciated Marcel for not explicitly stating the promotion was in the Air Force Reserve, not active duty. Todd then called Marcel a "liar" for saying that he didn't know about the promotion until later. Todd cites the fact that Marcel applied for the promotion and later signed a letter of acceptance Dec. 1, 1947. What Todd LEFT OUT, however, is that this promotion didn't become official until Jan. 13, 1948, when a commission for his appointment was filled out. While this was a mere formality at this point, he nonetheless wasn't officially promoted until then, although the promotion was retroactive to the initial approval. It is quite possible that Marcel never saw the commission in his file until AFTER he left active service, which may very well be what he meant. In the meantime Marcel remained in active service as a Major. There was no reason for him to have been overly concerned about his reserve rank until after he left active duty. Todd again employed a questionable psychobabble theory, stating that Marcel again was trying to puff himself up by saying he was a Lt. Colonel to make himself look good after Roswell. The FACT of the matter is, Marcel WAS promoted to Lt. Colonel, and it's nothing but a nitpick to attack Marcel for not specifying it was in the Reserve. I've seen no evidence that he represented himself as anything other than a Major while in active service. For example, in the "Roswell Incident," Bill Moore addressed him as "Major Marcel," but also noted that he was now a Lt. Colonel. Marcel's promotion also wasn't official until 6 weeks after he signed. And finally, Marcel had absolutely NOTHING to gain by falsely claiming he didn't find out about it until after he left active duty. Now I don't know if Kal Korff is making all these same nonsensical and misleading statements in his book. But from what I've seen so far from him, he seems to be parroting most of Todd's original charges that Marcel was some sort of pathological liar with delusions of grandeur (e.g. Marcel's claim of working for Hap Arnold as an aide). Isn't it amazing how these characteristics don't show up in Marcel's evaluations after Roswell written by people who actually KNEW him, which single out his high moral integrity and trustworthiness, not to mention his excellence as an intelligence officer? Why would a person with all his serious alleged personality defects be transferred afterwards to an extremely sensitive intelligence position following his alleged bungling of the Roswell crash? Will debunkers like Korff and Todd ever address these fundamental points? >Finally, it would probably do you better to get my new book first >if you wish to attack it. I REFUSE to have a debate with someone >who gleans their "facts" from "psychic" means like Hesemann does. Oh brother! The pot calling the kettle black. Where did Kal Korff glean his "fact" that Marcel claimed to have a degree from LSU? What about the "fact" that the foil was "tough" and backed with plastic? How about all those nonexistent Roswell witnesses who supposedly said they saw foil backed with paper? Does Korff have any real evidence that Marcel didn't work for Hap Arnold, or that he didn't know how to fly a plane? Korff seems to be using psychic means of his own, perhaps some remote viewing capability? > I know you are not doing this, literally, but for your own >CREDIBILITY'S sake, please READ THE BOOK FIRST before trying to >attack it. Otherwise, how is anyone going to ever take you >seriously? With your already many misstatements of fact, how is anyone going to ever take you seriously? >I would welcome your feedback, but only AFTER you've read the >book, otherwise, what's the point? Fine Pamela -- I mean Kal. Let's make a deal. Maybe you should stop shamelessly promoting your book, including statements about its contents and brilliance, until AFTER it comes out. Then we'll stop taking potshots at you until we've had an opportunity to read and examine it. Fair is fair. >I will get back in touch with you in the future with a long list >of Roswell issues that if you can refute, then you will have gone >(boldly) where no one else has managed to take this investigation >before. Should be a challenge for you and any other Roswell >supports - the ranks of which seem to be thinning on a daily >basis. :-) If you're declarations of Marcel's dishonesty are as shallow and unfair as Todd's, there will be lots to discuss. I'm sure there are also a a lot of other issues you think you've got nailed down. I bet you even believe the debris in the Fort Worth photos really does come from Mogul. We'll see. The obvious smugness of your beliefs may whither faster than the ranks of Roswell supporters once you are subjected to a real debate of the facts. David Rudiak
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 Re: Bob Shell Buying Korff's New Roswell Book From: TotlResrch@aol.com [Kal K. Korff] Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 20:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 00:27:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Bob Shell Buying Korff's New Roswell Book In a recent posting, Bob Shell wrote: <snip> <My book stores still do not have K Korff's book. <Waldenbooks, B. Dalton and Books a Million all tell me it isn't <even in their main warehouses yet. <Would someone who has the book already let me know the name <and address of the publisher and the ISBN? I'll try direct <ordering. <Thanks a lot. <Bob To which Kal K. Korff replies: Thanks, Bob, (sincerely) for your interest. I should let you know however that you are mentioned nowhere in the book, even in the alien autopsy chapter. And don't forget to order TWO copies...one for yourself, and one for your lawyer...even though I understand you have no intention of "suing anyone." : ) Sincerely, Kal K. Korff P.S. I will address this later Bob, in another posting, but for what it's worth I AGREE with your comments awhile back about 35mm film sizes, and the other technical points you mentioned. You are to be commended, in my opinion, for doing a good job of addressing these issues.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com Date: Thu, 08 May 97 10:45:35 cst Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 01:05:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 15:28:26 -0500 (CDT) >From: MAC TONNIES <0212104@ACAD.NWMISSOURI.EDU> >To: updates@GLOBALSERVE.NET >Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >Vince wrote: >>Gee, Bob... you certainly have an unusual obsession about >>Santilli's copyright claims. Why should you care one way or the >>other -- unless you have a financial stake in his venture? >>But then, what should we expect from Santilli's PR flack? >I am so tired of wading through pointless negativism and inter- >personal barbs every time I check my e-mail. The issues re. >copyright of the alleged alien autopsy stills have been >addressed previously in this forum, and I fail to see how junk >messages like this one help advance the issue. >I've enjoyed and benefitted from many of the arguments on >UpDates, but this message doesn't qualify. >"Have a point...It makes it so much more enjoyable for the >listener!" Hi Mac, Here's the point: Bob Shell has represented himself as an impartial photographic expert who can provide an objective expert opinion on the authenticity of the alien autopsy video. In reality, Shell has been nothing more than an advocate (i.e., a PR flack) for Ray Santilli's business venture. Each of his previous pronouncements authenticating the alien autopsy "film" (use of quotation marks still required because even the existence of actual film footage has not yet been verified -- even by Bob Shell) has proved to be based, ultimately, only on the descriptions offered by Ray Santilli -- not on actual first-hand inspection by Shell, Kodak or anyone else. Yet, after repeated challenges to provide his reasons for his public statements in support of the authenticity of the AA "film," and his condemnation of its critics, he could only reply (flippantly) that it was "a secret." Any objective analysis of Shell's activities can only conclude that his sole motivation is to preserve the marketability of the AA video, and for his upcoming book on same. If you think that my public accusation that Shell is a con-man motivated by crass commercial consideration is "pointless negativism," so be it. Would you also characterize Errol's brilliant expose of Bob Oeschler as "pointless negativism?" My personal opinion is that if we don't agressively police our own ranks (of the kooks and scam artists) ufology will never be taken seriously. Besides, don't you find it odd that Shell has never denied any of these accusations? Regards, Vince Search for other documents from or mentioning:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 Re: UFO UpDate: UFO sighting, New York City From: bhamilto@pcshs.com Date: Thu, 08 May 97 08:28:57 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 00:29:36 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: UFO sighting, New York City >Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 01:22:35 -0500 >To: updates@globalserve.net >From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) >Subject: UFO sighting, New York City >In the interest of documenting a 'sighting' in a timely manner, I post the >following. Anyone who collects such data is welcome to add this report to >their database. >On Saturday April 26th 1997 at approximately 3:45 pm, I shot 15 seconds >of clear video of an 'unknown' in the sky over Queens, New York. The object >appeared to be bright white and (somewhat) elliptical. Object appeared to >be about 1500 feet high and about as far away. Tough to say if the object >is reflecting light or emmiting it, but it is bright white against the blue >sky and some clouds that it passes in front of. I saw your footage, John. Tom King showed it to us at Village Labs. The 'unknown' was bookin' it. The one I shot with my video cam on April 27th at approx. 2:30 PM MT was not bookin' it, but was alternately hovering and moving slowly north. Tom will post that footage on his website as well. We had another sighting reported to the NAUFORC that came from Phoenix, then a call to us that objects were zipping around the Estrella Mountains again and I called one of our skywatchers six miles from the event to check it out. I am sure that through rapid communication and networking we will get more video footage. Keep up the good work. We are on READY status. Sincerely, Bill Hamilton Executive Director SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL Home e-mail: billh46088@aol.com, starmanbh@aol.com Work e-mail: bhamilto@pcshs.com SKYWATCH website: http://www.wic.net/colonel/ufopage.htm ALIEN MAGIC website: http://members.aol.com/billh46088/newhome.htm "It is easier to ridicule than investigate, but not as profitable" - Alan Search for other documents from or mentioning: bhamilto | jvif |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military File From: bhamilto@pcshs.com Date: Thu, 08 May 97 12:27:14 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 01:53:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military File >From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] >Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 22:36:32 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files >People need to at least consider the possibility that >there was indeed no ET crash at Roswell, let alone one >with recovered bodies, and that, consequently, nothing >even remotely resembling MJ-12 -- in either fact or >fiction -- was established in its wake. Then again, maybe we need to consider the possibility there was a crash and there was a special intelligence and security operation and maybe a few others -- we still cannot dismiss it or we might miss a lot. >Reality is rude. Reality is cruel. But I'd rather be >rudely abused than go on believing in something that >just did not happen -- at least not in the way that you >and other Roswell devotees have advocated. What is one man's rude reality is another's wake-up call, but maybe there is more than one person's reality to consider here. Maybe it did happen. I don't think we have a conclusion yet (IMHO). Bill Hamilton Executive Director SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL Home e-mail: billh46088@aol.com, starmanbh@aol.com Work e-mail: bhamilto@pcshs.com SKYWATCH website: http://www.wic.net/colonel/ufopage.htm ALIEN MAGIC website: http://members.aol.com/billh46088/newhome.htm "It is easier to ridicule than investigate, but not as profitable" - Alan Search for other documents from or mentioning: bhamilto | krandle993 |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 Re: UFO sighting, New York City From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 01:02:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 01:02:13 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO sighting, New York City John Velez wrote: >Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 01:22:35 -0500 >To: updates@globalserve.net >From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) >Subject: UFO sighting, New York City >In the interest of documenting a 'sighting' in a timely manner, I post the >following. Anyone who collects such data is welcome to add this report to >their database. >On Saturday April 26th 1997 at approximately 3:45 pm, I shot 15 seconds >of clear video of an 'unknown' in the sky over Queens, New York. The object >appeared to be bright white and (somewhat) elliptical. Object appeared to >be about 1500 feet high and about as far away. Tough to say if the object >is reflecting light or emmiting it, but it is bright white against the blue >sky and some clouds that it passes in front of. John, Most interesting footage. I must admit that first time through I thought "some kid must be real un-happy letting go of that one!" <G> But on re-winding and sitting closer to the set while it played I could see an out-line around the white object. I've yet to grab a couple of frames and blow 'em up real good' and tweak pixels - I'll pass on a couple of them to you. I'm quite amazed at the way these 'things' present themselves for you to grab video and still shots of. (For those of you who weren't on the List last year Senhor Velez managed to fire off some stills of a whole bunch of daylight objects). Perhaps when you get some feed-back from Jeff Saino you could let the List know his findings? Thanks for the dub, John. "There are UFOs over New York and I ain't too surprised" - John Lennon, 'Nobody Told Me' Strange Days Indeed! Errol
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 Pointless Negativism? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 01:11:36 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 01:11:36 -0400 Subject: Pointless Negativism? >From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com >Date: Thu, 08 May 97 10:45:35 cst >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell <snip> >If you think that my public accusation that Shell is a con-man >motivated by crass commercial consideration is "pointless >negativism," so be it. Would you also characterize Errol's >brilliant expose of Bob Oeschler as "pointless negativism?" Vince, The 'expose' was a team effort - it happened that I was the only member of the MUFON Ontario investigative group that had access to the Net and FIDO at the time. Thanks on behalf of, as Oechsler so quaintly termed us, "those dumb Canucks". Errol
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? From: Andy Roberts <101322.751@CompuServe.COM> Date: 08 May 97 15:28:16 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 02:03:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? EdKomarek wrote: > Debunker Containment Strategy? If I wasn't familar with this list I would suspect Ed had his tongue in his cheek. Sadly he hasn't. Let's go through the saucer shaped window........ >I would like to see a book written exploring the interactions and >relationships between such debunkers as Karl Pflock, Karl Korff, >Col. Weaver, Phil Klass, James Oberg, Carl Sagan, Donald >Menzel etc. So would I. But so what? Ed - you need to be able to distinguish between a sceptic and a debunker. Some of the above are most definitely sceptics. Or more likely you need to be able to distinguish between someone who agrees with what you think and someone who disagrees. >These individuals and organizations have had and are having >much influnce on the mass media and mass conciousness. >All seem to be following a common strategy to maintain the wall >of denial and ridicule around the UFO/ET subject that was >officially pursued in the fifties by agencies such as >the Air Force and the CIA. If only! ;-) Your prejudices are showing again Ed. I think they are actually expressing facts and opinions about a subject they know rather a lot about. People don't like them simply because their opinions are at odds with with the majority view. The people you label 'debunkers' have all done *very* good work in the ufological field and we should be grateful that sceptics exist to challenge the majority view and to provide alternate explanations, otherwise we'd probably all be eating apple sauce in the tail of a comet by now. Why do you object so to alternate viewpoints? >It should be explored as to what the relationships are >between these individuals and their debunking >organizations and the intelligence agencies of >the United States Government. Yawn. *That* old chestnut trotted out again. If someone doesn't believe in the reality of ufos and dares to say so obviously they are in the pay of the government. Do you realise just how silly that idea actually is? >Are these organizations and individuals working >as honest skeptics or are they acting informaly >as a private UFO/ET containment arm of government? Puhleeeze. See above >Through such efforts denial and ridicule of the reality of >UFO/ETs has been effectively maintained for 50 years. I don't think it is ridicule of the reality of UFOs/ETs so much as ridicule of the ill-informed people who peddle conspiracy theories about those they disagree with. The idea of the reality of an ET origin for UFOs and their occupants is a perfectly sensible one but the simple fact is that the *evidence* (there is no proof as yet) doesn't back up the beliefs. > I think that such qualified investigators and writers such >as Kevin Randle, Stanton Friedman and Timothy Good >should turn their attention toward exposing these debunking >organizations and individuals. Lets take the offensive. Let >the debunkers defend themselves for a change. I really wish that would happen, I am sure the 'debunkers' would welcome it. I haven't found a sceptic yet who doesn't relish the idea of someone challenging their claims or being asked to provide back up for their statements. Andy Waiting for that elusive job with the government
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 Challenge to Ed Komarek From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:14:41 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 02:13:32 -0400 Subject: Challenge to Ed Komarek From: Kal K. Korff Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 To: updates@globalserve.net Subject: Challenge to Ed Komarek Dear Ed, For the LAST time, I am NOT a UFO DEBUNKER. I advocate the SERIOUS, SCIENTIFIC STUDY OF UFO PHENOMENA and I have ALWAYS advocated this position for some 23 YEARS!! I state this in my Meier expose and my new Roswell books in the LAST chapters of BOTH books. For you to call me a DEBUNKER simply is not true. 1) I would he HAPPY to cooperate with you on this issue and address these ridiculous charges. I can send you LOTS of documentation and past articles of mine which PROVE my position. But first, you must prove yours, since YOU are levying the unfounded charge here. 2) I saw a UFO once and have just recently posted the details of my sighting as I promised Gary Alevy and everyone on this forum that I would do so. 3) I am President and CEO of a group, TotalResearch, which studies paranormal subjects and does not just blindly "debunk" them. My own sighting is a perfect example of a case which remains unidentifed and unexplained. 4) By comparison, Stanton Friedman has NEVER seen a UFO, yet he "swears" they are real. Karl Pflock has also had a UFO sighting, which most people are unaware of, and that's why he studies UFO reports and feels they are worthy of scientific investigation. Let me know if you have the courage to take up this challenge, while I cannot speak for anyone else from the list of researchers you cited, I can speak for myself and when it comes to your categorization of me you are simply PLAIN WRONG! Everyone who REALLY knows me would never call me a debunker. But there is nothing wrong with investigating UFO cases and if the evidence indicates that they are a hoax, one must stick by the evidence. Not all UFO cases are "genuine," in fact MOST of them are simple and innocent misinterpretations of conventional objects or phenomena. If you are NOT familiar with my true position on things or cannot articulate it correctly, then I would appreciate you refraining from even doing so until you have your facts straight. Ask me first and I shall enlighten you with more documentation than you can probably stomach. We need critical thinking here, not emotionalism. Respectfully yours, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 Alfred's Odd Ode #134 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 18:26:51 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 02:10:04 -0400 Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #134 Apology to MW #134 (For May 8, 1997) Playing let=92s make a buck from the ones out of luck, Korff impugns yet again, the hapless major. Paid to spit in the eye of survivors he pries In the records of giants much braver. =20 I=92m the storm bringer, I=92m the tit in your wringer, And I pretend to make you think of what you wouldn=92t. I=92m the bad news, I=92m a lover of Jews*! I bring a present -- you could one day wish you had it. I am a sane man, if _not_ a brain man. But I saved up =91till I had some _time_ for thinking. I was a crazed man, my mind a sterno can. The process of my thinking truly stinking. The gays? A bad draw =96 they had a character flaw! And those black folks were a fumble with their handout! Women weren=92t men, just get your panties down, little hen! And those Jews, what is it they=92re whining wretched, now? I wasn=92t overt, or even that covert, And didn=92t show my pink neck out in public. But I kept my own mouth shut =96 should have slapped some others up! So I did _my_ part to build this hate republic. . . There must be a way to couch what you say. . .=20 To say the right things, and piss no people off. I know my expressions =96 inconvenient inspections =96 =20 Make you feel like you=92re boinking Boris Karloff <g>. But think of that monster, who became such a wrongster BECAUSE of the rejection from the others! When treated with some kindness by a better kind of blindness That monster was more fun than Sally Struthers <g>. But back to the ignominy of my educational disharmony When I was first compelled to utter "Wait a minute!" I didn=92t do it on my own, I didn=92t do it getting stoned, I wanted answers for this world, and the hate I saw within it! You do that when you=92re 50, when you=92d have your life more nifty. The time one has to work out one=92s despair. Though the gods have smiled for you; most others screwed and blue, But you=92re distracted by glad fortune=92s lucky stare. Consider Major Jesse, and Kal=92s move to make him messy. And is Kal somehow a pseudonym for Todd <g>? From where, then, is this flood, this slinging of old mud? It is nagging, nasty nonsense =96 swear to God! The big bucks are cool breezin=92, and I=92m sure they have Kal sneezin=92. God knows another=92s motives more than I. But cheap shots Roswell=92s major, won=92t heat up, much, Kal=92s pager. Besides, he pokes surviving family in the eye! And listening to K-randle, who has the firmer handles, Kal isn=92t making much of Alien View. Is he taking out of context, presuming specious pretext? Is he panning for some gold dust, with what he might construe? And the irony is as monstrous as old simony. Moral fiber of our major=92s torn and weaker? From the recorded account, and in no small amount, He=92s more moral than a President, or a Speaker! =20 As to records that are quantified, K-randle says I=92m qualified <g> To challenge all their specious claims of efficacy. I know my own are not so accurate, perhaps inflated, a little obdurate, And that=92s the way they=92re written, hard, but spacy. So you readers have some doubts, on the length of Marcel=92s snout. He was cased to fine _distinction_ with his files. And a government so grim, put special faith, and trust in him! His was NOT a checkered past =96 Kal just defiles! Lehmberg@snowhill.com *. . .and of course, Moslems. I promise not to dredge it up again, but I have to apply, here, my response to Mr. Todd when _he_ first brought up this business impugning the character of Major Marcel. Those records that are brandished about with such solemn righteousness by muckraking players, do not hold the integrity, and accuracy they presume. There is distortion, inflation, and obduration =96 "a moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on. Nor all of [Kal=92s] piety, or wit, can call back a single line to alter, nor all his tears wash a word of it." Again, as I requested of Mr. Todd, in the event of the Major=92s eventual vindication, I hope Kal has the courage to write about that, too. --=20 "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake. I wonder what clever distortions could be made from Monk Bruno's record! =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1= =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1= =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1 Government or Social Harassment REPORT - Presently, "ZERO" HARASSMENT
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: meccam@205.252.116.10 [Melanie Mecca] Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 07:59:37 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 10:19:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? > Date: Thu, 8 May 97 08:24:22 -0400 > From: pwedel <pwedel@neptune.on.ca> > To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net> > In addressing the original question, 'are contactee's ever lied to?' , > I (subjectively) feel every researcher would agree it is a very good > question and one that is very difficult to scientifically verify since > these beings are (seemingly) very good about cleaning up after themselves > and leave so little evidence other than the fragmented memories and > shattered lives of those that have come into contact with them. (and I > guess the odd crashed device...) At the MD MUFON conference, 'Beth Collings' and 'Anna Jamerson' spoke about an incident from their book, in which Anna was the recipient of a "thought bomb" from a being they called "the pink lady" (drawing in the book). Anna was told that she would receive clarity, her mission, and know what to do when the cataclysms arrived - in February or march 1997. She said "They lie." She was of the opinion that the disaster visions shown to contactees were more to see what their reactions might be, talked about the visitors using the analogy of graduate students experimenting on rats.> So far, their predictions communicated to Anna have not come true. After the 1994 Harvard conference, both women were abducted, and Anna caught the thought impression "They didn't learn enough to change the timetable." That's interesting, isn't it? Seems to corroborate the notion of a well thought out plan. One view is that the greys are harvesting for themselves and that's all there it to it - maybe there is more than that going on. Wouldn't it be nice if we all woke up one morning with Edgar Cayce like powers and knew the truth? Melanie
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 The 9th BUFORA International UFO Congress From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 01:08:57 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 10:24:15 -0400 Subject: The 9th BUFORA International UFO Congress The 9th BUFORA International UFO Congress. The Pennine Theatre, City Campus, Hallam University, Sheffield, South=20 Yorkshire, England. 16th & 17th August, l997. Confirmed Speakers: Derrel Sims (USA), Don & Vicki Ecker (USA), Debbie Jordan (USA), Paul=20 Devereux (UK), Larry Warren & Peter Robbins (USA), Malcolm Robinson=20 (Scotland), David Percy (UK), Derek Sheffield (UK), Alan Alford (UK),=20 Nick Redfern (UK) and Matthew Williams (Wales). Speaker line-up subject to change. Ticket Prices: Single Day Ticket: =A315.00. Two-day ticket: =A325.00. All cheques payable to BUFORA Ltd. For a booking form please write to: Congress 97, BM BUFORA, London, WC1N 3XX, England. Telephone: 01484 721 993. E-mail: 101322.751@compuserve.com Philip Mantle. Press Officer. British UFO Research Association.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 Re: 'Tent Footage' video sold in Italy From: Edoardo Russo <erusso@torino.ALPcom.it> Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 14:25:50 +0001 (GMT) Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 11:01:39 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Tent Footage' video sold in Italy Hello Joel > Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 08:16:06 -0500 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: 'Tent Footage' video sold in Italy > >You may be interested in learning that the infamous "tent footage" > >is presently being sold on video in thousands of newsstands all > >over Italy for no more than 10 U.S. bucks. > Will this be available in the US? If not, is there a way I could > purchase it through you? As for the U.S.A., I can't know, but you might ask somebody nearer to Santilli, there. If you (or some other colleague) need a copy from Italy, well - you can contact my e-mail in order to avoid unnecessary overfloading of many uninterested recipients of the list. Best regards Edoardo Russo Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici C.I.S.U. - P.O. Box 82 - 10100 Torino - Italia tel. +39-11-3290279 (24 hours) fax +39-11-545033 (24 hours) e-mail: edoardo.russo@torino.alpcom.it http://www.arpnet.it/~ufo
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files From: DRudiak@aol.com [David Rudiak] Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:17:18 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 10:17:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files >Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 21:43:03 -0500 (CDT) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files >>From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] >>Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 22:36:32 -0400 (EDT) >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Major Jesse Marcel's Military Files >>I also notice in the file, in a document dated February 8, >>1942, that Marcel is ordered to "extended active duty at >>University of Maryland, College Park, Md. Air Intelligence >>School." Isn't that interesting? >>KRandle >Only if you can demonstrate that it actually means >something! Did Marcel ever go, for instance, and if so, >for how long? Well you see Dennis, there is this big hole in Marcel's record during this period, one of many. There is no paperwork from this period at all when he entered active duty in Washington D.C. on April 12, 1942 to when he signed an acceptance of promotion to 1st lieutenant in Harrisburg, Penn. on June 23. Prior to all this are the following papers: Feb. 5, 1942: Recommends his admission to the Army Air Force and recommends he be ordered to Air Intelligence School, University of Maryland, College Park (adjacent to Washington D.C.) Feb. 12: Again recommends admission and assignment to the Intelligence School at the U. Maryland. Recommends waiver of the usual educational requirement. March 6: Orders Marcel to active duty, April 10, "with AC (Air Corp) Army Air Force, Washington, D.C. April 30: Report of Entry on Active Duty. States he reported for active duty, April 12, 1942 to AAF, Washington D.C. <Gap> June 22: Marcel signs notice that he has been promoted. June 23: Marcel signs oath of office for promotion, notarized in Harrisburg, Penn. at the Intel School. Later in Marcel's records, it states he first graduated from the Harrisburg intel school on June 25 after 2-1/2 months. But there is no paperwork at all about when he was transferred there, by whom, when he arrived, an evaluation of his coursework, etc. The only such Harrisburg paperwork dates July 31, when he was rated for the period June 27 to July 31; Sept. 30, for the period Aug. 15 to Sept. 30; and Dec. 31, for Oct. 1 to Dec 11. But the initial paperwork in his file states he was first assigned to Washington D.C. and the intel school in College Park, Maryland. > And even if he did, so what? You haven't been paying attention. It is the debunker's claim, like Robert Todd, that Marcel's first assignment was in Harrisburg, but the file says his first assignment was Washington D.C. and College Park. Marcel indicated that when he first reported for active duty in April, he worked as an aide for Hap Arnold, then the AAF's Chief of Staff. If Marcel was in Washington, that could be true. To make it more plausible, the AAF wanted Marcel because he was an expert aerial map maker. Marcel might very well have been briefly involved in some sort of map making or photo interpretation for Arnold's staff. If he was in Harrisburg, however, this is unlikely to be true. On this thin thread, Todd said Marcel was a "liar" with "delusions of grandeur." In addition, Marcel said Hap Arnold recommended that he attend intelligence school, and it is then that he went to Harrisburg. Todd again calls Marcel a "liar," because the recommendation that he attend intelligence school came before (true) and in Harrisburg (FALSE -- College Park, Washington D.C.). > We know that >he had to have gotten to where he was at Roswell at the >time -- obviously -- but that isn't really the question, >is it? The question is, how reliable is he, period. If Marcel was the only Roswell witness, there would be no Roswell case. He would be one man speaking alone, no matter what his credentials or credibility might be. But Marcel wasn't alone. Every bit of his basic Roswell story has been independently corroborated by other civilian and military witnesses, including a number of Air Force Generals like Dubose, Exon, Blanchard, and Ramey (both Blanchard and Ramey highly praised Marcel for his intelligence work following Roswell; Blanchard privately told various people that the debris was anomalous, and of course issued the crashed disk press release. Ramey of course debunked it with a weather balloon story.) >You yourself have seen G. Anderson, J. Ragsdale and >G. Dennis discredit themselves over Roswell. Why assume, >necessarily, that Marcel Sr. (God) and Marcel Jr. (Jesus) >are any different. Might they not have simply been *mistaken*? Where did you ever get the idea that the Roswell case is strictly about the Marcel's? There's documentation of events plus various witnesses whose credibility has never been questioned who back him up. Do you think Marcel would have been lavishly praised in evaluations by Blanchard, his C/O, and Ramey if they really thought Marcel had completely bungled it and publicly humiliated them and the Air Force? Do you think an Air Intelligence Officer who couldn't identify aluminum foil and balsa wood would be recommended for promotion to higher intelligence work (Blanchard wrote this) and then receive it when he was transferred to the Top Secret Special Weapons Program in Washington? Would an incompetent and rash intelligence officer be made Officer in Charge of the War Room at the SWP, where his job was to evaluate all the latest Top Secret intelligence on Soviet nuclear capability, and then prepare briefings and reports for the higher brass? The obvious answer is that Marcel would never have received such a promotion if he had bungled Roswell. Nor would he have received his subsequent excellent ratings. He would have been given some harmless desk job somewhere and then probably quietly released once his enlistment time ran out. >Dennis and Ragsdale were taken originally at face value, >too, as potentially reliable witnesses -- until they >turned out differently. Are you saying -- unequivocably >at this time -- that the same can't possibly happen to >Kaufmann? That he's good and true for the duration? The so-called "Mogul witnesses" are all very unreliable in their stories (or there is no evidence that they actually saw the debris), yet the debunkers never seem to question their credibility. Take a key witness like Sheridan Cavitt, e.g. Initially Cavitt told various investigators he was never involved in the Roswell events, or that he wasn't even at Roswell. In his Air force interview he said he saw nothing but a tiny balloon crash no bigger than his living room. That's totally inconsistent with the crash of an alleged 600 foot tall Mogul. Cavitt was obviously reciting the old 1947 weather balloon story. (He wasn't briefed beforehand.) He also denied seeing anything like the infamous "flower tape," even when prompted by Col. Weaver in his interview. He declared that was all the invention of those lying Roswell authors, who got the idea of alien hieroglyphics from somewhere else. Of course, the "flower tape" is supposed to be the one clear link between Mogul and the Roswell crash, yet here we have Cavitt denying it ever existed and declaring it to be a fabrication. He also denied ever meeting Mac Brazel, leaving us with the conundrum of how he could ever have found his tiny balloon crash without Brazel's assistance in the middle of the New Mexico desert. We also have Mac Brazel's newspaper statement that the debris field was 200 yards across, in direct contradiction to Cavitt's "20 square feet," yet debunkers selectively quote from both and ignore the irreconciable inconsistency. Nobody backs up the various pieces of Cavitt's latest story, which is contradicted by Marcel, Brazel, Marcel Jr., Louis Rickett and others (including his own wife), and even himself. Lots of people and documentation back up Marcel. But in DebunkerLand, Marcel is "Satan" and Cavitt is "Jesus Christ." Go figure. <snip> >So why do you hold on so tenaciously to the Marcels >and Kaufmann? Because their stories have independent corroboration and are more consistent. Why are you holding so tenaciously to Cavitt, or other "Mogul witnesses" whose stories are grossly inconsistent and ever changing? > Hasn't it occurred to you that everyone >was just a little bit off, Hasn't it ever occurred to you that the evidence for Mogul is just a little bit off -- way off? > and that that's all it >really takes to turn Roswell from the UFO event of >the century into one of the most magnified mundane >events of all time? And that's all it really takes to turn Mogul from the debunking event of the century into one of the most magnified mundane cover stories of all time. >People need to at least consider the possibility that >there was indeed no ET crash at Roswell, let alone one >with recovered bodies, and that, consequently, nothing >even remotely resembling MJ-12 -- in either fact or >fiction -- was established in its wake. People need to at least consider the possibility that there was indeed no balloon crash at Roswell, let alone one with superstrong balsa wood, aluminum foil, and Scotch tape. >Reality is rude. Reality is cruel. But I'd rather be >rudely abused than go on believing in something that >just did not happen -- at least not in the way that you >and other Roswell devotees have advocated. Reality is rude. Reality is cruel. But I'd rather be rudely abused than go on believing in something that just did not happen -- at least in the way that you and other Mogul devotees have advocated. Search for other documents from or mentioning: drudiak | dstacy |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 Can Philip Mantle Be Helped? From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 02:59:08 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 10:19:49 -0400 Subject: Can Philip Mantle Be Helped? Dear colleague, I wonder can you help me ? I am consulting on a series of children's book on the unexplained and we are coveruing a variety of topics. I've come across one or two small items that I can't find any info on and wondered if you could shed any light on them. They are: 1. Lord Carnarvon, Tutankhamun's excavation. Apparent at the moment of his death his dog back home in England let out a shriek. What make of dog was it ? 2. Walter Pidgeon was one of the first Westerners to view the great serpent mound in the USA. Walter was shown the mound by a native American Indian, but of what tribe ? If we know the tribe do we know how they would be dressed etc ? Any assistance with the above would be greatly appreciated. Philip Mantle. el51@dial.pipex.com PS. Please forward this onto anyone who you think might be able to help if you can't help yourself.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 Re: Meier From: "Jeroen Jansen" <edzmath@bart.nl> Date: Fri, 9 May 97 11:04:30 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 10:15:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Meier Vince Johnson wrote a while back regarding my critical remarks regarding Korff's 1995 book: ><snip> >...and proceeds to argue why Korff's analysis is in error, >presumably making the case that Meier's photos and story are >true. Your assumption that I write these e-mails with the purpose of "making a case for Meier's photos and stories being true" is incorrect, I write these postings with the purpose of pointing out scientific facts which prove that Korff's "scientific" research obviously isn't that scientific at all. You can check it up yourself and convince yourself of Mr. Korff's obviously questionable scientific approach. Take a look for example at his claim of having found the exact Unterbalm location Meier hoaxed his photo from (pp. 149-151). I disproved that one earlier here in a posting on the list. Or take a look at Mr. Korff's "scientific" reasoning regarding Meier photo # 3 (pp. 240-142 & 144) which I treat in a recent posting to this list. Or his concave arced upward "suspension line" fig. 66, p. 198. Or his suggestion that thallium (atomic number 81) and thulium (atom number 69) are one and the same element (p. 277). Or his claim that the Hasenbol Langenberg UFO is a model hold close to the camera which is wrong since you can even see the black contours of branches in the left dark bottom area of the UFO in in fig. 72, p. 205. I'm not a frequent poster to this list, I've also no intentions to become one; besides other things to do, I post these facts which can be observed by any sane individual under reconstruction (a rarity in UFOlogy) in the hope that they might be of some help to other UFO researchers around the world. Jeroen Jansen
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light?) From: HONEYBE100@aol.com (Linda Cortile) Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 04:24:05 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 10:13:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light?) >Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 22:16:10 -0500 (CDT) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Yellowrose <yelorose@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light?) > You wrote: >Some people seem to be able to see things others cannot see >such as auras and balls of light and other phenomena. Oh no!!! Balls of light? That's just as frightening as the alien abduction phenonema in itself. Do you know what they are? Where they come from? Are we supposed to feel them when they're here? In my whole life, I have seen only one ball of light. But I wouldn't really interpret it as a ball of light because it had a tail on it (almost like a comet). [Alright everyone, I'm open for the Hail-bop jokes <G>] All kidding aside, I had a terrible experience with one of those things about 17 years ago. Never experienced it again. I haven't mentioned anything about it publicly for fear of ridicule, after all, I'm far from being a New Age person (not that there's anything wrong with it). It's just not me! This "ball of light" gave me a temporary sunburn on one side of my face. I'll never forget it. What you have said, is the closest thing I've ever heard in comparison to what has happened to me many years ago. I'm mentioning it now, because I'm no longer afraid of ridicule. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, the debunkers could poop in their hats, and wear them! I look forward to making them look ridiculous! <G> Through the years, I have always wondered what is was that I've experienced. You can be sure, it left a lasting impression on my mind. In fact, I was so scared, that when I screamed for my husband to put the lights on, "he couldn't get to the lamp because I had him in a very firm neck hold." He was frightened too because he'd never seen anyone's face glow in the dark, like the digits on a clock. I didn't see my own face, but I'll take his word for it, as he is not an abductee and a very objective person. I hope that you, or someone out there will be able to explain this away for me. I don't like the feelng of being different, because I'm not. Perhaps, there is some sort of explanation for what has happened. Some logical explantion? >One time I interviewed an "abductee" who described a ball of >light or probe that she often saw out of the corner of her eye. I always see things out of the corner of my eyes. But only when I'm at home watching TV. I've always thought, somehow, that the TV screen might've been reflecting lights through the corner of my right eye because of the TV prescription glasses I wear to watch TV. So, on a whole, what you are saying, is that what I thought to be reflections, might in fact be things that no one else can see. I can only see these things through the corner of my eye. But as soon I turn my head quickly to the right, there isn't anything there. Yes indeed, thats very strange. >So, Linda you are not the only one who experiences this...and >there is more! "Kathy Davis" described seeing a "ball of light" >that she saw, etc. I did'nt know that Kathy Davis saw such things. I have spoken with her a couple of times and it never came up. Maybe I ought to start reading some UFO related books. Honestly, I never do read anything UFO related. Not even Budd Hopkins' latest, "Witnessed." <G> I have read the manuscript though. Thanks for your input. I'm anxious to find out more. It's helpful, but its somewhat frightening, you know? Your information, I'm sure is helping to answer questions that some people (like me) have kept secret. Thank you, Linda Cortile
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 #5 The Lesotho Incident From: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de (Joachim Koch) Date: 08 May 97 22:13:00 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 10:06:59 -0400 Subject: #5 The Lesotho Incident On behalf of the authors, we, Joachim Koch and Hans-Juergen Kyborg, feel previleged to publish the following important article. ______________________________________________________________________ *The "Lesotho Incident"* *Part Five* *Some remarks by Alexander Stein* Because of the recent discussion - that is also on the internet - on the so-called Lesotho incident of 1995, regarding an alleged saucer-crash, I regard it as my obligation towards the public to present some facts within this open letter. Beforehand, let me explain to you that as a businessman I am also in the public eye, and since UFOs unfortunately are subject to ridiculousness in wide parts of - especially German - public, from the very beginning of my involvement my decision was to use a pseudonym: Alexander Stein. For myself I like to use it for the sake of not spreading my name everywhere, even though a German author does not respect this and intends to publish my name in the near future. By the way, in his case, I am quite surprised that he has not found out my name much earlier, which he was looking for quite eagerly and because of certain circumstances having had some opportunities to get it way sooner. Well, Mr. Jochen Kopp and Mr. Andreas v. Retyi, editors of the UFO-KURIER magazine here in Germany know my real identity, of course. Regarding the presentation of facts that was given in the January edition of the UFO-KURIER as well as with some addition in CNI news, I totally agree with Mr. v. Retyis remarks and explanations. The information now to follow shall support a better understanding of certain facts and events regarding the Lesotho incident. Since the name of one of the main sources has already been published, I myself have no reason not to mention it also. I was involved in the Lesotho story, when two friends of mine got to know the alleged South African foreign agent Mrs. Judith van Greunen at certain circumstances. Mrs. van Greunen had some pages of documents with her that seemed to be ABOVE TOP SECRET material. She allowed them to make xeroxes of these pages. At that meeting a couple of quite interesting events happened to which I will refer a bit later. Soon I happened to meet one of my friends, who explained to me what he had witnessed and who also showed me the above mentioned pages. I was really surprised regarding the contents of the documents, asked for another xerox of them, which I received not much later. I knew of the Kalahari incident of 1989, and so I was also aware of van Greunen, who had supplied material to that case, too. Because of my personal opinion that there was no question that this information had to be investigated, I called Mr. Andreas v. Retyi, author of astronomical and UFO books, who has my confidence, because of his very well investigated UFO publications - in contrast to some work by certain selfacclaimed researchers. From this point of time we started our co-operation regarding the Lesotho incident. Because of favorable circumstances we soon were able to establish contact to Judith van Greunen in South Africa. Van Greunen is - as stated earlier by Mr. von Retyi - a mystery in herself. However, I cannot help feeling that against her there are a couple of really unjustified attacks in the making, so to say to deal her the death-blow, even though she was the source of the reports on the Kalahari Incident which had a far more factual background than most researchers have realized till now. In this context let me remind you of the extensive work done by Mr. Anthony Dodd from England, who found much evidence, but nevertheless was exposed to many attacks by uninformed people. Their superficial evaluation was widely publicized and promoted the commonly accepted opinion that the case was nothing more than pure hoax. If you, however, have a closer look into the whole matter, then you recognize partly strange and contradictory statements by several "investigators". For example, I observed that, at an online conference with Steve Kups in 1996, German author Mr. Michael Hesemann stated having received papers about an incident in Lesotho from an "inside source from within the intelligence community of South Africa". When you know that this source was Judith van Greunen, his current statements especially on the position of that person give you cause for thought. In addition, I can only suggest to reread Mr. Hesemann's earlier statements regarding van Greunen and "Kalahari" (e.g. quoted by Leonard Stringfield) and to compare them with his current ones; it is not difficult to recognize a couple of inconsistencies and differring remarks that were uttered by him over the time in a chronologically not comprehensible way. But, as I mentioned above, now I would like to explain to you what happened at the meeting of my two friends with Judith van Greunen. Because of the quite difficult situation she was in while here in Germany, there were two interesting phone calls, which were witnessed by my friends. They had the phone on loud speaking and so could easily follow the dialogues. The first call was to the consul of South Africa in Munich. The consul was speaking very carefully and with low voice. Among other issues he also spoke of "treason" (of the country) and revealed to Mrs. van Greunen: "You are in a very bad situation. The only I can do for you is that you take a plane back to South Africa this evening. However, there I cannot guarant for anything." The second call was to the German Intelligence (BND, Bundesnachrichtendienst). After van Greunen had told her name and whom she wanted to speak (we know this name) she was put through immediately. This BND man asked: "Where are the documents? You are here now as "persona non grata" and have to leave the country at once!" In general, our investigation showed that at least the German Secret Service is interested in not just a marginal way regarding the case and van Greunen herself and that their interest has been alive for quite a long time - this as a short remark about a person that is said by some "researchers" to have "never been involved in intelligence activities". Please think also about the fact that Judith Helena van Greunen, when taken to Germany by Andreas v. Retyi, Jochen Kopp and myself, arrived with a passport that, regarding its color, had to be characterized as diplomatic passport (because it was green instead of blue as usual). The statements of Judith van Greunen regarding the Lesotho crash were confirmed by Henry G., who was also brought to Germany by us. We saw his passport, so his identity should be confirmed in principal. Henry G., who is known as the real source of information regarding "Kalahari" and as real officer (Major) of the South African military intelligence, made no statements with respect to "Lesotho" that were contradictory to the ones made by van Greunen herself. Recently, the German Michael Hesemann has claimed that the phone numbers of the institutions as given in the Lesotho documents had nothing to do with them. This is definitively not true. I received confirmation for the correctness of the military phone numbers in Pretoria and Tempe as well as for the phone number of the "Medical Research Institute" (all on tape). Of course, it depends on the method how to gain true information, however. Without question you will receive a negative answer when it is statute of a certain institution to cover up true identities and to deny facts while facing inquiries by unauthorized persons. The method and the naivety of certain ;researchers" respectively regarding checks of phone numbers or receiving confirmation of names of military personal sometimes seems to me grossly negligent. Later Mr. Hesemann explained the phone numbers lead to switchboards of the institutions - this is already a clear difference to what he said in the beginning. Finally allow me some remarks regarding the person Judith van Greunen. Whatever one may think of this person, who is even prepared to spread contradictions and lies (especially when her own person and her past is discussed), I would ask you to bear in mind the following facts and questions: 1) The "Kalahari incident" which was revealed for the first time by van Greunen, almost certainly was a real incident. Its implications and the whole background of the case, however, are so complex that within this short statement it is in no way possible to present the facts that lead to that conclusion. So, for those who dub it a pure hoax: Please refer again to all the results and work of British investigator Anthony Dodd! You may not handle the matter in a superficial way! 2) With respect to statements of certain "reseachers", especially some in Germany and South Africa, who also were involved in the Kalahari matter, there emerges quite a couple of inconsistencies and of in no way logical conclusions - also regarding "Lesotho". But why? 3) Is it true, that information that is transferred to the public eye by an obviously questionable personality be false only because of that? 4) Why have we been warned by an official agency within the German intelligence community that it could be very dangerous to deal with matters like the one discussed here? This warning was spoken out in direct connection with the Lesotho matter. 5) Why was there a huge fireball in the sky over southern Africa / Lesotho right at the date in question, September 15, 1995? What a fireball was this? 6) There are other facts and insights that give reason enough at least to us to consider this case an interesting one to be further researched carefully; however, finally I only want to remind you of the many facts that meanwhile have been published especially in the UFO-KURIER magazine (but also in QUEST UFO MAGAZINE, England) and that show that "Kalahari" as well as "Lesotho" for sure have some real background, whatever this may be, whatever the implications may be. As a final remark, here I can only quote Mr. Anthony Dodd from England (Quest). Asked why so many "researchers" dub "Kalahari" as pure hoax, he only replied: "Because they do not know anything!" With kindest regards, Alexander Stein ______________________________________________________________________ Herzlichst Joachim Koch Internet: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de oder: 106525.1607@compuserve.com Homapage der Internationalen Roswell Initiative, Deutschland: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/Homepages/JKoch1
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 Korff to Hesemann re: Autopsy "Cameraman" From: "Jeroen Jansen" <edzmath@bart.nl> Date: Fri, 9 May 97 11:04:40 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 10:16:10 -0400 Subject: Korff to Hesemann re: Autopsy "Cameraman" Photo # 3 --------- Visible on the foreground of this Meier UFO photo are the dark contours of a raised road and with to the right parked on it a long-distance truck. All foreground features are out-of-focus. The dark bottom of what according to Meier is Semjase's beamship can be seen hovering in good focus in the cloudy background sky. Meier claims this photo is the second one he took of Semjase's spaceship during his first contact with her in the Frecht Nature Preserve on January 28, 1975. -Analysis and refutation of claims by Korff. Korff (p. 141, 1995) states that Meier later during an on-site reconstruction of the 28-1-75 events had established the distance from the place he took the photo from to the truck as being 143 feet(44m). Korff also states that Meier estimated that the UFO hovered 325 feet (107 m) above the truck. On basis of the UFO being in good focus and the truck being out-of-focus in the photo and further that "it is claimed" that *both* objects are 143 feet from the camera Korff then concludes that the photo must be a hoax. The point to notice here is that the claim of the UFO and truck both being 143 feet away from the camera originates from Korff and not from Meier or any of his proponents. Korff apparently thinks here that when the distance between the camera is 143 feet and the UFO hovers 325 feet above the truck the distance between the UFO and the camera also is 143 feet. Obviously such reasoning is not valid. The correct distance between the UFO and the truck for the above described situation can be calculated by using the theorem of Pythagoras: (143^2 + 325^2) = X^2 ===> X = 355. A distance between the UFO and the photographer of 355 feet (116 m) is obtained which is more than 2.5 times the distance of the camera to the truck. The fact that the UFO is in good focus and truck out-of-focus in the photo then is in line with Meier's reported camera characteristics: the camera's lens was "jammed short of the infinity setting, which means that objects *farthest* away from his lens will be in *better* focus than those objects closer to him" (p. 245, Korff 1995). -In case of Meier telling us the truth: What's distance from the UFO to the camera? Since the distance between the camera and the truck is known (143 feet) and the height of the trailer of the truck can be estimated (12 feet) the height of the trailer on the original film must have been about 3.5 mm (42 * 12: 143). The diameter in Korff's fig. 23 of the UFO is about 3/4th the height of the trailer of the truck which would make the diameter of the UFO on the original film about 2.64 mm (0.75 * 3.5). The distance from the UFO to the camera then becomes 42 * 22.75 : 2.64 = 362 feet (119 m). A distance of 362 feet is obtained which agrees pretty much with the earlier calculated distance of 355 feet.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 Kal K. Korff Responds to Open Letter From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 20:07:14 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 10:20:36 -0400 Subject: Kal K. Korff Responds to Open Letter Date: 07 May 97 From: Kal K. Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com> To: UFO Updates Subject: Kal K. Korff Responds to Open Letter Recently, UFO Updates admonished Michael Hesemann and myself to take our "discussions" privately. To be frank (even though my name is Kal), I couldn't AGREE more!! Michael Hesemann (I think) also has had similar notions because now I get Emails faithfully everyday from him sent directly to me. (lucky me!) :-) I would just like to take this opportunity to say that I APPRECIATE UFO Updates for making this request and I admire the spirit in which this forum should be and pretty much is conducted. Thank you again for your time and consideration of this matter, Sincerely yours, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 Re: Crash in Puerto Rico From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 01:01:11 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 10:05:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Crash in Puerto Rico >Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 02:00:16 -0400 (EDT) >From: Francisco Lopez <d005734c@dc.seflin.org> >Subject: Crash in Puerto Rico Hola Francisco, you wrote, >A woman in Ponce [s of the island, named after Ponce de >Leon], videotaped the bright light flying over a hill. Is a copy of this video available? I have been collecting video from all around the world and would be very interested in comparing it to what I already have. I am especially interested because I am Puerto Rican and I have many family members living there. (Including my dad!) Contact me privately or thru this list. >Write it down, I told you a year ago, the big thing is still to come. Is it possible to elaborate on this remark? Thank you in advance, John Velez PS- For those of you waiting, I am in mid-edit on the compilation tape. Will advise all as soon as it's complete. JV * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 #6 The Lesotho Incident From: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de (Joachim Koch) Date: 08 May 97 22:26:00 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 10:08:35 -0400 Subject: #6 The Lesotho Incident On behalf of the authors, we, Joachim Koch and Hans-Juergen Kyborg, feel previleged to publish the following important report. ______________________________________________________________________ *Was the Lesotho Crash Really Exposed As Hoax?* *by* *Alexander Stein & Andreas v. Retyi* Regarding the "Lesotho UFO Crash" there has been a lot of discussion in different ways, so in some magazines as well as on the internet. There was and is a lot of speculation and false reasoning going around, including claims there has never been a crash of a so far unknown object in Lesotho/southern Africa on September 15, 1995. There are controversial documents that report about such an incident - documents which consist of a police report, a military report and a medical report on alien beings; there are also several other listings and correspondence that suggest a crash/retrieval of an alien/extraterrestrial craft in the Kingdom of Lesotho. Especially one German author, Mr. Michael Hesemann, made many efforts to convince the public that this case is nothing than a hoax. With the remarks to follow, it is in no way our intention to attack the person or to provide a polemic text. However, we have to react now, since our long-lasting extensive research into the matter and a thorough examination of several claims stated so far, of claims not only uttered by Mr. Hesemann, show a not negligible number of clear aberrations from proven results of our investigation. So we feel indebted to present them to the public. We also want to stress that in our eyes the high demand to clear up such a case, to receive all information necessary to prove this true or false, seems absolute illusionary. Mr. Hesemann made a very quick visit to Lesotho. We believe it is well justified to doubt that he or anybody else would be able to really solve the puzzle of a complex case (including possible extraterrestrial technology) within a time frame of only some hours or days. We also wish to stress that, to the contrary of what has been circulated by some others, we are yet in the process of investigation, we have neither reached any final conclusion nor claimed that the documents in question are genuine. However, we have discovered quite a couple of stunning details and facts; we have faced situations and events that prove there is a serious background to this case. But let us come to the claims of those opposed to the case and let us, on the other hand, introduce the facts. We will concentrate only on a couple of definitely false statements, even if there are many other intended or unintended misinterpretations known to us from different sources. According to the documents the object crashed at a location about 8 miles (twelve kilometers) west of Madibamatso River near the town of Lejone in Lesotho. It was claimed that in such a rural region "no cover-up or secrecy could ever prevent local talk and rumors about such an obvious incident" First of all, this is a speculative statement, which deserves nothing more than a speculative answer, an answer however that without any question bears some logic in it: If something happens that brings fear to people and could be followed by events that may endanger their lives, this could - no question - prevent them from talking. Mr. Hesemann states: "You can silence a person, you can let him disappear, but you will always find people who remember him" We believe, it is quite doubtful, if such remaining people will give information to an unknown white person who suddenly arrives and asks questions, when those people themselves have witnessed what happens to others when they say too much! Remember, the region of the crash is a very remote one. Lejone is more than ten kilometers away from the crash site, and if somebody comes to Lejone to look for crash witnesses there, it is not so sure if he will succeed. In this context it is important to mention that according to the alleged secret files the explosion that occurred in connection with the crash was not a "loud", but a "dull" one. It is also stated in the files that the object seemed to come down quite slowly. Mr. Hesemann claimed he could not find witnesses of the incident. If he would have invested more time, he should have found some. We got independent confirmation from an absolutely reliable source: Our inquiry regarding unusual sightings on September 15, 1995, was forwarded by the South African Astronomical Observatory (SAAO), a renowned astronomical institution, to Cederberg Observatory. All anomalous observations of objects like huge fireballs (bolides), etc., are stored there. Cederberg is no large institution and supervised by avid amateur astronomers; a proof for their reliable and serious work is the cooperation with SAAO. At this point, we have to remark that one of us (Andreas v. Retyi) is specialized in meteoritics and has some insights into astronomical matters. He has done bestselling books on astronomy. >From Mr. Bill Hollenbach, associate of Cederberg, he received some very interesting info on the "Lesotho Fireball" - Indeed, there was a very bright object that streaked across the skies over southern Africa on September 15, 1995. It reached a maximum brightness of magnitude -6 to -8 which is between the apparent intensity of Venus (-4.4 maximum) and of our half moon (-10). The object lost several smaller fragments and, according to Hollenbach, was witnessed by thousands of people. However, the South African government is not willing to release any data on that object; an aspect which is hardly understandable if that object was nothing else than a bright meteor. It is also interesting that Hollenbach used to add quotation marks while calling the phenomenon "meteor". Also something is not correct with the claim that "neither Leribe Police Chief Major Letunja" - who (thoroughly?) checked his files after Mr. Hesemann's request - "nor Lejone Station Commander Sgt. William Selli Mosili knew of an incident on the 15th of September..." With respect to the highly secrecive nature of the matter (and within this statement we will supply some further proof for a serious background of the case discussed here) no private investigator can expect that he will receive answers from official sources. Hesemann also claims there is neither a Constable Nandi as mentioned in the files nor an Abe Lochwela of the Lesotho government. However, one of us (Mr. Stein) made a call to the Leribe Police Department and received confirmation that a Constable Nandi exists. Mr. Stein's call was carried out in a way that it seemed absolutely unrelated to the case. As far as possible, we always strictly followed the principle of making inquiries in such a way that no relationship to the incident could be established in case any official agency or institution was contacted. Regarding Mr. Abe Lochwela, to the contrary of Mr. Hesemann, we received confirmation of his very existence. Mr. von Retyi made a call to the government of Lesotho, introducing himself with a pseudonym, and asked for the man. He was told that Mr. Abe Lochwela can be reached the next day between 8 and 12 a.m. (this is on tape). And the next day there came the surprise: When calling again, Mr. Lochwela was denied! There is also the claim that there is no "Department of Defence", only a "Ministry of Defence" in Lesotho, and that the documents must be fake, since the letterhead of Mr. Abe Lochwela's fax to the South African National Defence Force says "Department ..." (by the way, this fax is to inform the mighty neighbor of an aircraft of unknown origin, maybe "an experimental aircraft from the South African Air Force"). In that context one has to take into account that exactly those lines of the letterhead are written by Abe Lochwela himself. Now it is interesting that the Military Report (which was done in South Africa) mentions the "Lesotho Ministry of Defence", obviously the correct term, whereas South Africa for itself uses the term "Department". So it is rather kind of politeness than error when Lochwela used "Department" (with respect to the addressee). Mr. Hesemann explains that he checked the names of the policemen who were on duty at the day in question (Sept. 15, 1995) and that there is neither Sergeant Thobo, who is also mentioned in the controversial files, nor the above mentioned Nandi. The problem with this is that Hesemann checked the Lejone Police Station; Thobo and Nandi, however, were from Leribe Police Department! It is impossible to find them in Lejone. Then he often repeatedly mentions a nocturnal helicopter invasion. This is a story in itself, which needs to be explained, especially, since there was no such invasion and it is not stated in the files, too. Therein is only mentioned o n e PUMA helicopter which was sighted in that region "approximately 30 minutes before the a l l e g e d incident took place" (please observe the wording, stressed here by the authors A.S./A.v.R.) and of t w o ALOUETTE rescue helicopters. So we consider it exaggerated to speak of an invasion. This "invasion" seems to be necessary as argument against the case, because of course it appears paradox that such a lot helicopters fail to be observed widely. Another conclusion that seems to long for more helicopters is the Hesemann interpretation that the quoted "3 Bataillon" are three Bataillons, whereas the true meaning is "third Bataillon". To make the situation even stranger, Hesemann creates a "loud" explosion out of a "dull" one - as mentioned above. By the way, it is not necessary to fly in that Bataillon by countless helicopters. As also mentioned in the controversial documents there was a "1 Para Bataillon" in action, the First Parachute Bataillon, stationed at Tempe/Bloemfontein, SA. The personnel is known as "tough guys", and the bataillon gives advanced parachute training and instruction for the Special Forces units of the SANDF (the South African National Defense Force). For their operations they use not only the Transall, but also C-130s (used even for low altitude para-dropping night operations), C-47 Dakotas (which are also used for casuality evacuation, night operations and paratrooping) or the Spanish Aviocar C.212. There are a lot of other statements by Mr. Hesemann that as a whole suggest the strong - but wrong - impression that nothing with this case and the contents of the documents is correct. However, a closer look shows that these opposing statements by him are not correct. He explains that "according to the Report the crash happened 12 kilometres (8 miles) west of the Madibamatso River in the Lesotho Foothills" And immediately he adds "Indeed there are no foothills west to the mighty river" The difference is that in the documents it is stated that the object was heading on a course towards the Lesotho Foothills, there is no mention of a crash i n the Lesotho Foothills. The implications are obvious. They are also obvious with the situation for Mr. Peter Lachasa, who is quoted as the primary witness and farmer on whose land the unknown object did crash according to the documents. Well, it is stated that Lachasa heard the detonation at 9.17 p.m. and arrived at the Leribe Police Department at 10.20 p.m.; this is also the time frame quoted by Mr. Hesemann who writes: "The document indicates that it took about 50 minutes to go there" First of all, the time difference is 63 minutes. Second, it is not correct that "it takes much longer to drive the 87 kilometers (54 miles) to Leribe, since the only road there is a serpentine road over a mountain pass." The distance between Lejone and Leribe is about 60 kilometers. Since the crash region is some 12 kilometers west of Lejone, Mr. Lachasa had to travel about 50 kilometers. So an average speed of 48 kilometers per hour is sufficient to make it. Of course, you have to consider bad condition of the streets. And it is true that there is a road over a mountain pass and that this road is about 87 kilometers long. However, it is not the only road in that region. There is a far more direct way to Leribe, and so the problem with the time frame does not exist. There is another non-existing problem. Mr. Hesemann claims that the Lesotho Ministry of Defence is closed at night. This is simply not true - and also not to be expected. One of us (Mr. Stein) called the Lesotho Ministry of Defence at a Sunday night, 11.00 p.m. (the day of the incident was a Friday). By the way, he called the number of Abe Lochwela. The phone rang only once and immediately someone answered. Mr. Stein ("S") asked: "Are you the officer on duty?" - the man ("MOD1") replied: "No, I am not.". Then there was a short dialogue: S: "Who are you?" MOD1: "You should not ask me my name!" S: "I need an urgent communication to the officer on duty" MOD1: "I put you through". Then a second man ("MOD2") was on the phone: S: "Is this the Department of Defence?" MOD2: "Pardon?" S: "Is this the Department of Defence?" MOD2: "Yes" S: "Are you the officer on duty?" MOD2: "Yes, you are right". We believe it to be reasonable to suppose that if the Department of Defence is not closed at a Sunday night it was also not closed on that certain Friday night. So, Abe Lochwela would not have to be too quick to inform a "sleeping" government. And when you get a prepared text - and the one in question is quite short - it is not impossible to fax it within two minutes to another bureau. There are so many other false claims regarding that case that sometimes we wonder if there is some deeper reason for certain people to attack this case in the public as they also did with the Kalahari case of 1989, where some investigators stuck in their own contradictions. It would be quite important to make an abstract of all those events and claims with a thorough discussion, however even such an abstract would be a paper on its own. The above shall be sufficient at least for this moment to demonstrate that there are circulating countless unfounded claims against the case. One of the main problems with both cases, Kalahari as well as Lesotho, is directly connected to the main source, James/Judith van Greunen. Like all the others involved in the network of those South African UFO cases, we are very skeptic about this person and know that no question van Greunen does not hesitate to lie, especially on her own person, and often mixes up facts and fiction. However: First, we should not forget that she was the one who brought the information on Kalahari to the UFO public; and it is not us, who state that there was a real UFO crash in the Kalahari, but Mr. Anthony Dodd of England who did very serious research into that matter and found evidence for that SA UFO crash. Of course, all that does not prove that van Greunen is the original source of the information or that the documents (if Kalahari or Lesotho) are genuine. But all results show that the contents are genuine. This is especially true for Kalahari, and we have to proceed with further serious research on Lesotho, where we up to now have been also able to dig up proof that something very strange happened on that very day and that the contents of the documents can be estimated far more trustworthy than the claims by certain skeptics. Second: van Greunen is not the only source of our information. There are several other persons in the background, one of them was dubbed even by Michael Hesemann as genuine intelligence agent and who now confirmed the van Greunen statements regarding Lesotho when we had him flown to Germany in 1996. Without question, this does not prove a UFO crash, but is a statement given by a source generally accepted as genuine. By the way, please bear in mind that Mr. Hesemann himself published the Kalahari incident in one of his books as the best-documented UFO crash. However, it was "bandwaggon-jumper and hoaxer" van Greunen who brought this to the public. We really cannot understand these contradictions. It is not our intention to defend van Greunen or van Greunen's behaviour. Everyone is right when he is careful regarding several of van Greunen's claims. But up to these days we would obviously not know about both incidents if van Greunen would not have contacted UFO investigators in Europe. So, one can hardly dub van Greunen a "band-waggon jumper". Third: We ourselves regarded the contact and meetings with van Greunen important, of course. You cannot investigate Kalahari or Lesotho without getting into touch with van Greunen. However, we have opened other channels and are also working on contacts not related to van Greunen for further investigation - to repeat, for us, the case is not closed at all! Instead, we are in the planning stage of a very thorough on-site investigation at several locations in South Africa and Lesotho, where we intend to stay for longer time to carry out detailed research into every aspect of the matter, since only a most extensive investigation will help to clear up what really happened there. One of our sources explained to us that Mr. Hesemann unfortunately visited the wrong location, not the crash site. This source also explained to us some important aspects of the political situation in southern Africa. He told us there were several nuclear weapons that were given to South Africa in exchange for the alien spacecraft that was retrieved by the U.S. in 1989. Today, South Africa's (black) ANC government is as mighty as the Apartheid regime earlier was. Of course, there was a political turnaround, and SA cancelled relationships to western oriented countries like Taiwan to join communistic counterparts. This dangerous shift could become even far more dangerous, so the source, when they could become able to get into possession of the alien technology stored, administered and researched by the secret (white) shadow government of Illuminated Nine. This would also be one important reason for the sources to bring info on crashed and retrieved SA UFOs to the public and to direct attention to the situation as a whole. It was stated that the Lesotho scenario was rather improbable because of the political relationships. However, without any question, the opposite is the case. There was claimed that it is also improbable that the Lesotho Government would contact the competing South African government for help regarding a retrieval of the crashed object. But what else should Lesotho do? Lesotho is economically absolutely dependent from South Africa; it is absurd to claim there is some kind of competition between those two very different countries. The relationship can be demonstrated with the fact that even King Moshoeshoe of Lesotho was reinstated in 1994 on Nelson Mandela's orders. Mr. Hesemann claimed and criticized that we allegedly did not contact other researchers for exchange of information and coinvestigation of the case. This is not correct. However, at least in the first stage of research, we decided to carry out independent research for two interrelated reasons: First to receive independent results and to come to own conclusions that would later be of more value for comparison. Second, to avoid to be accused of having been influenced by "prejudiced" investigators from the very beginning of our involvement. However, of course, we are in contact with other researchers, and it is most important for us to be in exchange with Anthony Dodd who in our eyes is the leading expert regarding the Kalahari UFO crash. He also was severely attacked by uninformed opponents who did not know the details of the case. Even today, most researchers think of a hoax when they hear of Kalahari. With respect to Lesotho, September 15, 1995, Tony Dodd wrote us that it is very difficult to gather any hard information about the true nature of that incident. From his sources in South Africa however, Tony Dodd received the information that the crashed object was a secret missile test which went wrong. They also told him "that it was dangerous to pursue the event because of the sensitive nature of the weapon." This could be at least a reasonable explanation for what happened and also for the fact that we were warned by a German intelligence agency that it could become very dangerous to deal with this matter. However what is important to us, among other aspects, is that there was that certain fireball in the skies, and we hope to receive government data on this event soon, since only these data can clear our minds up if a missile could really cause a phenomenon like the one observed over southern Africa and Lesotho on that September day - a correlation that seems quite strange. But how does Mr. Dodd's as well as our own research square with Mr. Hesemann's statement that he could not find witnesses for a crash in that region at the time in question and that nothing happened there? It is at least our personal opinion that all the facts presented here supply sufficient proof that Mr. Hesemann was a bit too quick - and superficial - with his investigation. None of us is in the only possession of the whole truth, we do not claim to have hard evidence for a UFO crash in Lesotho, and against some accusations we have never claimed that the documents we published in the UFO-KURIER magazine in January are proof for such a crash. We presented them as a preliminary info on what happened and what is going on, and we were able to confirm a number of interesting aspects of their contents. However, we are in the process of researching this matter, which we consider as having a serious background with possible UFO involvement. ______________________________________________________________________ Herzlichst Joachim Koch Internet: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de oder: 106525.1607@compuserve.com Homapage der Internationalen Roswell Initiative, Deutschland: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/Homepages/JKoch1
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 Re:The 9th BUFORA International UFO Congress From: "Mark Pilkington" <markp@syzygy.co.uk> Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:31:59 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 12:40:05 -0400 Subject: Re:The 9th BUFORA International UFO Congress ---- From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> To: updates@globalserve.net Date: Friday, May 09, 1997 6:26 PM Subject: UFO UpDate: The 9th BUFORA International UFO Congress >Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 01:08:57 +0000 >From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: BUFORA CONGRESS >The 9th BUFORA International UFO Congress. >The Pennine Theatre, City Campus, Hallam University, Sheffield, South >Yorkshire, England. >16th & 17th August, l997. >Confirmed Speakers: >Derrel Sims (USA), For those intending to hear Derrel Sims, Alien Hunter TM, I would recommend reading this article by Randall Patterson: http://www.netkonect.co.uk/d/dogon/magonia/news/sims.htm Mark Pilkington Magonia online http://www.netkonect.co.uk/d/dogon/index.htm "Big words, smooth talking, BUT WHAT'S YOUR POINT?!"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 Re: Challenge to Ed Komarek From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:27:33 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 12:38:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Challenge to Ed Komarek >From: TotlResrch@aol.com >Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:14:41 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Challenge to Ed Komarek >Dear Ed, >For the LAST time, I am NOT a UFO DEBUNKER. I advocate the >SERIOUS, >SCIENTIFIC STUDY OF UFO PHENOMENA and I have ALWAYS >advocated this position >for some 23 YEARS!! I state this in my Meier expose and my >new Roswell books >in the LAST chapters of BOTH books. >For you to call me a DEBUNKER simply is not true. Hi there Kal, pleased to meet you. I too have been around the UFO scene for quite a while. Seems I have heard this old song sung many times before by such notables starting with the late Donald Menzel who just happened to have extremely high security clearances as did his replacement Carl Sagan. Of course you could never hope to aspire to that level. I place you and Karl Pflock in the same category as our most dear Phil Klass who in my opinion is perhaps one of the most intelligent and deceptive debunkers of all time. He is assured of a place in history which you can never hope to achieve. Then we have that notable researcher Willy Smith who was caught red handed having fake photos made to discredit Ed Walters (See UFO Abductions In Gulf Breeze). How may times have I heard Phil say, I am not a debunker just a skeptical UFO researcher! I used to so love to watch Phil debate the issues until so much information accumulated that it was quite obvious he was not a serious UFO researcher but simply working to strengthen the wall of denial and ridicule around the subject to say nothing of dirty tricks he may have been involved in. Phil simply moved on to work on the mainstream press to keep the information in the UFO community bottled up and out of mainstream conciousness. What did it matter if there were a few well informed UFOlogists as long at their message to the public at large could be suppressed. There is no need for me to debate you as their are much more qualified people to do that like Kevin Randle. My bet is that you won't waste time much longer debating the facts but will move on just as Phil has done to propaganize in the mainstream press. In my opinion now that you have build up your cover as a serious researcher (ha ha) in the UFO community and the public at large you have a vehicle to insert your disinformation and propaganda into the public domain. I certianly hope you keep talking and I am so glad that there is a archive of all your posts to updates. A serious investigator hopefully will put it all together to show that you are not a serious UFO researcher at all but simply working to discredit and suppress UFO related information and witnesses. There have been millions of deaths from smoking yet a multibillion dollar buisness has been built upon such denial and disinformation techniques as you debunkers use today. The suppression of the truth to the public of UFO reality has been just as effectively suppressed as the dangers of smoking. What the UFO community needs to understand and also the public at large is that the UFO problem is first and formost a political issue diserving of political solutions. You debunkers have been aware for a long time of that truth and have worked very hard to propandize the public using tried and true political techniques of deception, denial and dirty tricks. Its worked for 50 years. Nixon would have been proud! The UFO community must understand that it takes political solutions to solve political problems not scientific solutions. Just look to the smoking industry and the emphasis on more and more "research" while people continue to die. As always the best, Ed Komarek, ORTK.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 9 IUFO: Report - Greer on Bell - a.m. May 9, '97 From: "Alana Ray" <acray@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 02:05:42 PDT Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 12:40:24 -0400 Subject: IUFO: Report - Greer on Bell - a.m. May 9, '97 Dr. Steven Greer was on Art Bell Thursday eve/Friday am. Dr. Greer stated that he is working to foster an educational process and is gathering witnesses and data prior to going public. He said that there has been so much disinformation for so long, that we are set back to a minus number rather than starting at point zero. There is much preparation work required in order to gather strong evidence, and to present credible witnesses. On the day of the congressional briefing on April 9, in Washington, witnesses were gathered for the first time. Over a hundred witnesses were present and Dr. Greer said that 30 Congressional offices (members) were present and members of staff - Senators, Chair and Committee people. These witnesses have signed statements under oath that their testimony is true. He continued to say, that evidence was received at the closed briefing, re: (witnesses with top secret clearance) stated that a signal was received at least three dozen times, and registered in our computers. They have been ruled out as earth based. The Beta System at the Harvard Observatory registered the signal. Everyone present at the observatory went into action to confirm the signals. (I cannot remember the year, I thought he said in the 80's). This information is just now being presented to the public. Art Bell stated that the major newspapers should be fighting to pick this up now. Dr. Greer stated that you would think so, yet the debunking process has silenced many. Many believe that it cannot be true and their egos get in the way. Some saying, "If this were true, then I would have known about it." A person with a very senior position was shocked and frightened that he would not have been privy to such information. How can this information have been so suppressed? Greer stated, "You could sense a feeling of deep concern and even a feeling of panic coming from witnesses. You have these huge triangles and disks flying over cities, and newsman, Tom Brokaw isn't reporting this." He noted, that we had several sightings which occurred during October, 1981, when the Atlantic Command Space Center registered this off the Atlantic Seaboard, and we scrambled planes to chase it and force it down. He continued, that we got good photos of it off the coast of Maine, New Finland (code Zebra), Norfolk, and people were sweating bullets when this occurred. One of our military men got an excellent photo of a huge metallic disk and the maneuverability of it was astonishing. There was a witness (Top SDI clearance), who named an Admiral and date of event - who was present, and who saw craft off the western seaboard that was picked up by satellite and stated that it was shot down. There have been multiple reports about craft being shot down by the military. CSETI has at least a half dozen witnesses with information re: shooting of these ET vehicles. He stated that he felt that the crash in Brazil may have been such a hit. He continued, "We have multiple witnesses that stated, that at the North facility, at Edwards Air Force Base (primarily underground), who had witnessed an alien reproduction vehicle which was being designed. This design system was put in place and studied for 50 years. A prototype vehicle was created and manufactured by humans and function similarly. They utilize anti-gravity and have been fully operational for some time. We test flew it back in 1988 at a private and secret air show." One witness worked with President Eisenhower's military and was assigned to the White House during the late 50's. He was shown items retrieved by an ET device in the 40's in New Mexico. This man also was told by a high ranking civilian in 1959, that they had a capacity to track UFO's then. He is a lawyer and is still practicing law, and is a very solid witness. Another account was given about the April meeting: Two men ended up drawing the same symbols that were seen on an ET device, which had been stored in safe keeping. The younger man wrote out his interpretation of the symbols, while another, older man, looked on and was visibly shaken as he had seen the exact symbols provided that he himself had drawn. Many of these people in these conventional fields know of this information and yet it is not being disclosed to the larger population. "One of the witnesses present at the April meeting, broke away at break and left to make a phone call to one of his contacts. He disappeared and never returned to the meeting. Dr. Greer said that he did receive a note which stated that the man was asked to temporize what he was going to say. Greer said that things were in free fall right then and were causing some reorganization and reclassification to occur." Greer continued, "He was an intelligence officer and had detailed info of ET vehicles and how they were going to be used to hoax an ET event in order to convince people of a hostile event akin to Independence Day." Sounds like the same account provided by Dr. Boylan in his fiction (?) book, Project Epiphany. Art Bell stated that he was concerned for Greer's safety. Dr. Greer responded that he is presenting this information in a very open manner, and that he does not fear for his safety or the safety of CSETI members and witnesses, due to the openness and the extensive documentation that has been gathered, and been presented to news media and members of Congress. He stated, "I have been monitored with phone taps, and have had my hard drive of my computer erased. Nothing too severe." He said that when a band of people is formed, that a coalition of folks can help maintain safety and stability for all involved. Another story was shared regarding a covert kidnaping, whereby a man who was working with the same aim as CSETI, was abducted, by (I think he said military), and told that he should cease and desist, or that he and all of the others involved would similarly be abducted. Dr. Greer stated that another goal of CSETI involves establishing close encounters of the Fifth Kind. (CE5) The strategy utilized, whereby human ambassadors try to initiate a landing situation which consists of a number of protocols utilized in order to facilitate communication with ETI. This strategy is one such vehicle which bypasses the covert control of groups that try to block certain progress. Greer shared that he and members of CSETI visited Arizona and were doing some of their protocols. He said that even though it may be a coincidence, we were in Phoenix at the time when the flap occurred. We also were in Mexico when (a three to four football field - in size in triangular vehicle), came within 3-5 feet of us. We remote viewed the commander directing this vehicle at that time. Dr. Greer requested that we get on the phone or write letters and contact the Government Oversight Committee, Health and Science Technology Center, Representatives, etc. and push them to support the aims expressed within the CSETI Congressional hearing. A suggested letter to Representatives is posted on Dr. Greer's site. He does suggest that individuals try to personalize the letter by adding some of their own wording and/or personal comments. Dr. Greer may be contacted at: CSETI, PO Box 15401 Asheville NC 28813 He requests that if there are any high level people in government, congress, military, who have information they would like to share, please contact him at the following number. Please restrict use of this line for witness information only ( 704-274-5671). If you would like more information or a copy of #250 pages of documentation from the April meeting, it can be ordered - by going to the CSETI site. http://www.cseti.org If I have made any mistakes in reporting or spelling, I apologize. I did my best to listen and write as information was presented. I firmly support the CSETI program and Dr. Steven Greer in his work. I have been a CSETI member since 1993 here in the Twin Cities, and am personally very familiar with the protocols and program. Alana Ray Real Audio: http://ww2.audionet.com/artbell/abell/9705/ab0508.ram http://www.angelfire.com/mn/earthstar - New site in process. Email Alana Ray http://www.acray@hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 10 Re: Challenge to Ed Komarek From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 20:56:07 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 09:14:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Challenge to Ed Komarek >From: EdKomarek@aol.com >Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:27:33 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re, Challenge to Ed Komarek >>From: TotlResrch@aol.com >>Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:14:41 -0400 (EDT) >>To: Updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Challenge to Ed Komarek >>Dear Ed, >>For the LAST time, I am NOT a UFO DEBUNKER. I advocate the >SERIOUS, >>SCIENTIFIC STUDY OF UFO PHENOMENA and I have ALWAYS >advocated this position >>for some 23 YEARS!! I state this in my Meier expose and my >new Roswell >>books in the LAST chapters of BOTH books. >>For you to call me a DEBUNKER simply is not true. Ed Komarek wrote in response to Kal Korff: > What the UFO community needs to understand and also the public at >large is that the UFO problem is first and formost a political issue >diserving of political solutions. You debunkers have been aware for a long >time of that truth and have worked very hard to propandize the public using >tried and true political techniques of deception, denial and dirty tricks. >Its worked for 50 years. Nixon would have been proud! > The UFO community must understand that it takes political solutions >to solve political problems not scientific solutions. Exactly. It is perhaps easier to understand this when one considers the fact that science itself is more a environment of rivalry than an environment where everybody is just investigating and being nice to each other. In reality ideas are stolen or copied all the time, evidence is conveniently witheld all the time, sometimes funding is witheld for personal or political purposes. And this is true on a macro and a micro level. Knowledge is perhaps gained by doing research, but the acceptance of knowledge by the scientific community is only reached by shrewd politics. And the higher the stakes are, the more this is true. Ask any active scientist. I think one reason why Ufology is progressing so slowly toward acceptance by the mainstream is that the average Ufologist seems so naive as to think that just presenting the evidence is enough. That is not how science works, it is not how scientific ideas get accepted. I don't know whether Kal Korff is consciously trying to debunk Ufology. I think too much scepticism or just incomplete research should explain enough in his case. And btw research can never be complete, neither on Roswell, so I think Korff's claims that he has written the definitive work on Roswell is his real mistake. But what Korff apparently does better than other Ufologists is fostering his contacts with the media. Yesterday I read a long message from David Rudiak attacking Korff on Mogul and Jesse Marcel. In this Rudiak showed himself a clear thinking, well informed and very articulate researcher. Why I don't understand is why Rudiak doesn't contact the same journalists as Korff did - or they contacted him but that does not matter -, like MSNBC and point out Korff's mistakes. That way Ufology would gain more acceptance. __________________________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Leiden, The Netherlands \___________________________________________________/ Search for other documents from or mentioning: hvdp | edkomarek |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 10 Roswell: Historical Facts From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com Date: Fri, 09 May 97 14:06:47 cst Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 09:36:57 -0400 Subject: Roswell: Historical Facts We can argue the merits of particular Roswell witnesses, but there is one inescapable historical fact that can't be denied. The commander of the Roswell Army Air Field officially announced that the U.S. Army Air Force had recovered a "flying disk." Two points should be considered about this historic fact: 1. Using a sensational "RAAF captures flying disk" press release as a cover story for some other incident would attract more attention to the incident than for the AAF to simply say nothing at all. 2. If the "flying disk" press release was an act of collosal stupidity based on simple misidentification of any kind of balloon wreckage, Col. Blanchard's distinguished career would have effectively been over from that point on. We know that Blanchard suffered no negative career repercussion as a result of the Roswell press release. A third point concerns the shipment of Roswell debris to Wright-Patterson. While this has not been proved beyond a doubt like the press release and Blanchard's subsequently successful career in the AF, the evidence overwhelmingly supports the allegations that whatever debris was recovered was then air transported elsewhere. In light of this evidence, I have to conclude that something extraordinary did occur at Roswell 1n 1947. Regards, Vince Search for other documents from or mentioning:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 10 Re: Korff's Message to Ed Komarek From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 19:49:09 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 11:33:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's Message to Ed Komarek From: Kal K. Korff <TotlResrch.aol.com> Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 Subject: Korff's Message to Ed Komarek To: Updates@globalserve.net I would have "snipped" clips from Komarek's message to me, but AOL "logged me off," even though I was busy typing! and now his Email is GONE from my list! Luckily, I still had what I was typing in the clipboard and have re-pasted it into this new Email. I am sorry this happened. ------------------------------------------------------- Dear Mr. Komarek, I noticed you managed to conveniently DUCK the most important points in my message to you, which is the fact that: 1) I am NOT a UFO debunker, just a researcher who believes very STRONGLY in the scientific and objective study of UFO reports. Deal with it. 2) That I had a UFO sighting MYSELF and just posted the details of it to this forum the other day. Phil Klass, Donald Menzel and Carl Sagan never had a UFO sighting and nor has Stanton Friedman. How do you explain this, Ed?? I certainly hope that your Operation Right To Know is more grounded in reality than your opinion(s) about me are. If it is not, then your group will fail miserably and the UFO field will have yet another black eye that has been self-inflicted. Finally, let it be known for the public record, Ed, that when given the chance to PROVE your fantasy allegations against me (I was and am still more than willing to cooperate in this matter) you DECLINE to do so. Why this is, I don't know, but if YOU won't take up the challenge and put your actions where your mouth is you have no right to complain about others who don't bother doing this either. I WAS going to contact you regarding suggestions on filing a new round of FOIA requests with various U.S. government agencies re the subject of UFOs in order to try and obtain more data. But if your ridiculous (to be polite) allegations against me are symptomatic of where your "logic" is nowadays, then I will not bother. Such a movement needs credibility, Ed, not someone who can't separate fact from fiction - especially when given a direct and open opportunity to do so. I will leave this matter up to you. Conact me and let's talk. You have my Email address and am on America On Line like I am. Respectfully yours, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 10 Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #134 From: DRudiak@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 20:21:33 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 11:35:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #134 In a message dated 97-05-09 07:25:53 EDT, you write: >I promise not to dredge it up again, but I have to apply, here, my >response to Mr. Todd when _he_ first brought up this business impugning >the character of Major Marcel. Those records that are brandished about >with such solemn righteousness by muckraking players, do not hold the >integrity, and accuracy they presume. There is distortion, inflation, >and obduration =96 "a moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on. Nor >all of [Kal=92s] piety, or wit, can call back a single line to alter, nor >all his tears wash a word of it." >Again, as I requested of Mr. Todd, in the event of the Major=92s eventual >vindication, I hope Kal has the courage to write about that, too. This was great stuff, Alfred. I loved it! Korff deserves being poked=20 in the eye. Korff and Todd are shameless, arrogant liars and hypocrites, the pots calling the kettle black. I have no idea if they really believe the junk that they've written, or whether they're both now spOOks in the employ of somebody. I agree with Ed Komarek. It looks like a coordinated debunking campaign of Marcel using civilians Korff and Todd as the hatchet men, and giving plausible deniability to those really behind it. It's no accident this is all happening now following the Air Force's release of their debunking Roswell report. The strategy comes under the headings Preemptive Strike, Mop-up, and Protecting the Rear Flank. David Rudiak
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 10 'Project Mogul' - let's get it right! From: BGBOPPER@aol.com [Russ Estes] Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 05:30:32 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 11:47:45 -0400 Subject: 'Project Mogul' - let's get it right! I have been watching many interesting, and some not so interesting posts on, Roswell, Jesse Marcel, et al. The one thing that most have in common is a reference to Project Mogul as a GIANT Top Secret weather balloon. Matter of fact, in a post by D Rudiak, project Mogul was discribed as a 600 foot high balloon. The NYU Balloon project, better known to Ufology as Project Mogul, was flown in two basic configurations. Both configurations would be very hard to misidentify as anything other than a bunch of weather balloons. The "String of pearls" config. was a 300 to 600 foot long teather with 24 + Balloons, all neoprene, 15 to 30 feet in dia. Mogul carried a payload of aprox. 25 lbs. That included ballast and a sonobouy micro- phone, plus two or three raywin targets. The second config. was very similar to the first in it's length but the balloons were set up in a couple of fans. As classified as project Mogul might have been, the components were not classified at all. During an interview with Prof. Charles Moore, who worked on the NYU Balloon project, I asked "What happens when a Balloon crashes?" His answer was rather brusk and to the point, "Balloons don't crash! They drift down!" My point of this post is, if we are going to use or not use project Mogul...Let's at least agree on what project Mogul was. R. Estes
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 10 Re: The Tree of Life Formation: A feast for the From: Pat Parrinello <pparri@sat.net> Date: Fri, 9 May 97 17:17:05 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:08:32 -0400 Subject: Re: The Tree of Life Formation: A feast for the [The enigmatic Mr Pat writes: (ebk)] >The Tree of Life Formation: A feast for the eyes! >Greetings, All ! >Here's the aerial of the newest Formation! >http://alpha.mic.dundee.ac.uk/ft/crop_circles/1997/tree97.html I'm looking at it now... Tree of life? Eeerr... OK, if you say so. But,... What I see is an algorithmic construct parsing base translations on a multinodal geometry interface. It is saying something. 1. Base 10 2. Prism 9 nodes 3. The Golden Ratio is thrown in for good measure. (Pantheon) For two reasons I know that this circle is a hoax. 1. Mathematics. 2. (Care to guess?) ~Pat~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 10 Re: UFO sighting, New York City From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 02:13:37 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 11:27:00 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO sighting, New York City >John Velez wrote: >>Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 01:22:35 -0500 >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) >>Subject: UFO sighting, New York City >>In the interest of documenting a 'sighting' in a timely manner, I post the >>following. Anyone who collects such data is welcome to add this report to >>their database. >>On Saturday April 26th 1997 at approximately 3:45 pm, I shot 15 seconds >>of clear video of an 'unknown' in the sky over Queens, New York. The object >>appeared to be bright white and (somewhat) elliptical. Object appeared to >>be about 1500 feet high and about as far away. Tough to say if the object >>is reflecting light or emmiting it, but it is bright white against the blue >>sky and some clouds that it passes in front of. ----------------------------------------------------- Errol writes, >John, >Most interesting footage. I must admit that first >time through I thought "some kid must be real un-happy >letting go of that one!" <G> Yeah, but I'll bet the _second look_ at it got you going! I have recorded stray party balloons and they tumble around blown this way and that by any prevailing winds. This thing hovered, and then took off with purpose! It moves in that weird skipping motion I described in last years sighting. Tom King tells me that he and the boys estimate it's moving at several hundred miles per hour as it goes over my house! A balloon would have to be caught in a jet stream to move that fast! >But on re-winding and sitting >closer to the set while it played I could see an >out-line around the white object. You bet! Upon blowing it up, the classic 'Hockey Puck' shape shows up! I only wish we all had digital cameras and equipment, the resolution on my dinosaur of a videocam is not as good as it could be. We're getting 'photo ops' we should be recording this stuff with state of the art cameras. A patron or sponsor would be a Godsend for us right about now! >I've yet to grab a couple of frames and blow 'em up real good' >and tweak pixels - I'll pass on a couple of them to you. Please! And for the list as well Errol, I'm sure some folks are itching to check em out. >I'm quite amazed at the way these 'things' present >themselves for you to grab video and still shots of. Try standing underneath them as they buzz around doing tricks over your head! The closest I can come to describing it is a childlike state of empty headed wonder and elation. They don't frighten me. My feeling is that they are there to be photographed and they must get pretty frustrated up there wondering when the dummy is going to stop gawking and get the camera so they can get out of there! <G> >Perhaps when you get some >feed-back from Jeff Saino you could let the List know >his findings? Same drill as last time, as soon as it's in my hands it'll be posted. >Thanks for the dub, John. You are very welcome, and thank you for taking time out of what I know is a very busy schedule to review it and verify it's existence for the list members. You're the best! >"There are UFOs over New York > and I ain't too surprised" > - John Lennon, > 'Nobody Told Me' >Strange Days Indeed! You ain't kidding! Wait till they're over Toronto! Then we can sing Johnny's tune together! After a while we may end up with more singers than the Vienna Boys Choir! <G> Hee-Haw I have to make up a big sign for the aliens for next time with Phillip Klass' photo and address on it! If ever there was a white man in need of an alien rectal probe,...although I wouldn't want to see his keester get 'cored' like they do with livestock. I hope for the old guys sake that they don't get confused. <G> John Velez :) * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 10 Re: PROJECT-1947 - Kent Jeffrey and Roswell From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 19:23:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:22:23 -0400 Subject: Re: PROJECT-1947 - Kent Jeffrey and Roswell Regarding... >Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:54:27 +1000 >From: John Stepkowski <legion@WERPLE.NET.AU> >Subject: Kent Jeffrey and Roswell John kindly posted the CNI News story - >"ROSWELL DECLARATION" AUTHOR REJECTS SAUCER STORY >But Eyewitness Jesse Marcel Says Debris Was Not Balloon Which reports that: >Reached by phone on April 29, Marcel told CNI News, "The [hypnosis] >session was interesting, but it sure didn't change my mind. My >recollections are the same." It seems those recollections have in fact changed, and significantly. Dr Marcel's description of the symbols had for some time remained consistent, for example, "It was like they were embossed...the metal had the same basic appearance of aluminum, kind of a dull, metallic finish, it wasn't polished. And the hieroglyphics were embossed on that. So they stood out from that". However, in the Union Pictures/Channel 4 "Incident at Roswell" documentary, Marcel was invited to watch and comment on Ray Santilli's brief "debris" footage. Marcel claimed that the symbols in the footage were different in two respects, their size and the point about the symbols being embossed. What Marcel actually says in the video is that the embossed symbols in the footage are different because, "the ones I saw were not raised above the level of the beam". I thought there might be some misunderstanding, although it wasn't obvious what that could be. This apparent anomaly and the commercial availability of a "replica" I-beam were discussed on the CompuServe MUFON forum. A gentleman called Miller Johnson was involved with Marcel in the replica production and one of the forum members, Dennis Murphy, spoke with him. Dennis reported, "I asked if Jesse Marcel Jr. knew whether or not the symbols were embossed into the I-beam. He stated that Jesse was not sure if they were or not. The subject had come up though". Also perhaps worth keeping in mind that whilst Maj. Marcel spoke of "little members with symbols" which were "very hard", he also claimed, "they did not look metallic...something like balsa wood". Dr Marcel however recalls they "sure didn't look like balsa wood, unless it was sprayed with aluminium paint or something like that". And whilst his son originally claimed the symbols were "actually an embossed part of the metal itself", Maj. Marcel claimed, "they looked like they were painted on". It's a point I had recently discussed with Bruce Maccabee and Bruce wondered if these were possibly descriptions of different types of debris. However, both father and son agree on some notable characteristics: Sr. - little members with symbols...about three-eighths or a half inch square... in just about all sizes, none of them very long...[The biggest was] I would say, about three or four feet long...all the solid members were that way [long and slender] Jr. - small, less than a fingernail wide Sr. - about the same weight [as balsa wood]...weightless...you couldn't even tell you had it in your hands Jr. - it was extremely light Sr. - along the length of some of those they had little markings...we had to call them hieroglyphics because I could not interpret them...they could not be read, they were just symbols Jr. - many of the remnants, including I-beam pieces that were present, had strange hieroglyphic typewriting symbols across the inner surfaces...imprinted along the edge of some of the beam remnants there were hieroglyphic-type characters Sr. - those symbols were pink-purple, lavender was actually what it was Jr. - pink and purple...a violet-purple type color... the writing was a purplish-violet hue...shiny purple What seems more likely is that Dr Marcel's apparently uncertain recollections as a young boy, are in fact describing the same debris which others spoke of, but his memories of the "metallic" beams are simply not accurate. Bruce noted, "Jesse emphasized that he only saw these markings when he held the beam up toward a light...". Another witnesses also attributed the same properties, but to tape which was attached to pieces of the debris. Bessie Brazel Schreiber claimed, "some of the metal-foil pieces had a sort of tape stuck to them, and when these were held to the light they showed what looked like pastel flowers or designs". She also recalled, "sticks, like kite sticks, were attached to some of the pieces with a whitish tape" and that the tape had "flower-like designs on it".The "flowers", " were faint, a variety of pastel colors". Pink, purple and violet, perhaps? Loretta Proctor reportedly confirmed that Mac Brazel mentioned, "a tape that had some sort of figures on it" or "which had printing on it" and that "the color of the printing was a kind of purple". She added, "he said it wasn't Japanese writing; from the way he described it, it sounded like it resembled hieroglyphics". Putting all of this together, it seems to indicate that what Dr Marcel first described as metallic I-beams with pink, purple, violet embossed "hieroglyphics", was likely to be the same type of material that others described as rather more mundane. Dr Marcel has also acknowledged that he can not accurately recall the shapes of the symbols he saw, save one which he remembers with any confidence and which reminded him of a "seal with a ball on its nose". If doubt exists, it relates solely to the reliability of Dr Marcel's recollections - not his integrity. >Marcel still thinks the debris he saw was stranger than anything from >a Mogul balloon. He's perfectly entitled to. The problem remains that there are clear descriptions of debris which was flimsy and part of it's construction was sticky tape! As Bessie Brazel Schreiber is quoted, "The debris looked like pieces of a large balloon which had burst". The other point of discussion with Bruce was the influential background of the time. I had put to Bruce: Brazel didn't of course know if anything had exploded over the Foster ranch, only that there was a lot of debris. As we know, at first Brazel apparently didn't consider the debris to be significant and it was only after a couple of days that he went back to the debris field and brought some pieces home. It was the following night, when in Corona, that he first heard about the "flying saucer" reports and it was suggested to him that he might have some pieces of one. >From Maj. Marcel's account in "The Roswell Incident", by Berlitz and Moore: "Brazel went into town - Corona. While he was there he heard stories about flying saucers having been seen all over the area". "The sheriff said that Brazel had told him that something had exploded over Brazel's ranch". "In my discussion with the colonel, we determined that a downed aircraft of some unusual sort might be involved". We can see how already there was the idea that an _unusual_ crashed aircraft might have been involved, that it might have _exploded_ over the ranch. This was of course before Maj. Marcel's trip to see the debris field. It was subsequent to this that Maj. Marcel decided that the wreckage was unequivocally from a "flying saucer". As Dr Marcel recalled in a June 1994 interview: "In 1947 that's when the term flying saucer first became popular, because there's a man Mr. Arnold, I think, who was flying in Mt. Rainier, Washington state; saw what looked this thing was, the remnants of a crashed flying saucer. So, they brought the debris in, and, as our house happened to be between where they were coming from and the airbase, so my dad swung by the house to show my mother and myself what this looked like, and he said "this is a flying saucer, at least portions of it". Q: So he actually said that to you? Dr. M: Yeah, this was about one or two o'clock in the morning, it was kind of a late night that day. Q: Did he have to wake you up? Dr M: Yeah, oh yeah. I was asleep, and I looked at these materials, very strange indeed, and, something very different, definitely not an airplane. Q: What was your first impression when you saw it? Dr M: Well actually, I had never heard of a flying saucer before, I didn't know what it was, but he said this is a flying saucer and well, what is that? And he said something that came from other places other than the earth here, no it wasn't built by any civilization that we have here. Q: So he had that in his mind right then? Dr M: Yeah, that was the thought that was planted in my mind, and when I saw that I could believe it very well because this was a very strange material, very exotic. In "The Roswell Incident", Maj. Marcel reportedly claims, "I didn't know what it was, but it certainly wasn't anything built by us...". Obviously, he wasn't privy to his country's top secrets and couldn't know for a fact it wasn't "built by us". It was, perhaps understandably, an assumption. Accepting that, it's not clear why the integrity of the late Maj. Marcel needs to be called into question. >Also noted in the KTVU story is the fact that Walter Haut, former >press officer for the 509th Bomb Wing at Roswell AAF who issued the >famous July 8, 1947 press release claiming recovery of a flying disc, >now says he had learned a few days after the announcement that "it >was a screwup." Haut's statement in the "Unsolved Mysteries" Roswell feature, is possibly of significance. Referring to the press release, he states: "I took the releases into town and that was one of the things that Colonel Blanchard told me to do, take it into town, because if there's any validity to this he didn't want the news media to feel that we had jumped over their heads and were not co-operating with them". This would seem to suggest the reason for a press release was exited speculation that a "flying saucer" had _possibly_ been found, but the validity of that claim remained uncertain. All of this is perhaps to a large extent peripheral. The foundation for believing that something of importance had truly happened at Roswell was Glenn Dennis's testimony. It was possible to offer rational explanations for most other aspects of the case, but who could have believed that the account of such an apparently sincere, conservative, elderly gentleman should be treated with such caution. If events at Roswell did have a prosaic explanation, the explanation for Glenn's testimony had to be that it simply wasn't accurate. Now that we know that seems to be the answer, and given reservations about the perhaps less convincing Mr Kaufmann, it's understandable why Kent Jeffrey - whom I know and have a high regard for - feels there's little evidence left to support a case for the recovery of an extraterrestrial craft and it's occupants. He may have joined the "dark forces", but those forces are proving to be seductive. James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 10 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net> Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 08:27:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 11:49:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 19:31:29 +0200 (MET DST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 18:20:53 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>>From: bhamilto@pcshs.com >>>Date: Tue, 06 May 97 07:59:10 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, updates@globalserve.net >>>Date: 05 May 97 08:58:48 EDT >>>From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>>>Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 13:10:52 -0700 (PDT) >>>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>There are lots of good guys on this list Bill. Unsung (local heros) >>like Jerry Cohen, and Rebecca Shatte to mention but two of many. >>And then there are those who enjoy engaging in what can only be >>classified as a form of intellectual masturbation. They are alot >>like the 'chatter' you have to get through when you're meditating >>before you reach the Silence! <G> >And there are those who decide what good guys are. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - JC: Hello Henny. What you say is true, however, we're all entitled to this as intelligent, thinking, reasoning individuals. But, by the way, we haven't heard your reply to the "Oberg/Cooper rebuttals yet." As you know, they are located at my website. Looking forward to your comments. Respectfully, Jerry Cohen Email: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net> Website: http://www.li.net/~rjcohen Search for other documents from or mentioning: rjcohen | hvdp | jvif |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 10 Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light?) From: Yellowrose <yelorose@swbell.net> Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:32:06 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:12:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light?) >Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 04:24:05 (EDT) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net >From: HONEYBE100@aol.com (Linda Cortile) >Subject: Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light?) >Linda wrote: >Oh no!!! Balls of light? That's just as frightening as the alien >abduction phenonema in itself. Do you know what they are? >Where they come from? Are we supposed to feel them when >they're here? In my whole life, I have seen only one ball of >light. But I wouldn't really interpret it as a ball of light because >it had a tail on it (almost like a comet). Oh, my, Linda, I can't answer all your questions! ;p There are many theories but no one really knows what all these things are. I am including an excerpt from an on-line book about balls of light that sounded much like what you just described... "Grace continued to have nose bleeds about once or twice a week. On November 30th, 1993, as she was going to bed, she had another nose bleed. After we got the situation under control, she sat in front of me as I combed her hair and said, "Mommy, do I have one of those implant things in my nose like the stuff we saw on TV?" I laughed and said, "No, Honey! We don't have any of that weird stuff around here! We don't have UFOs or aliens or little balls of light bothering us!!" She jumped, turned around and said, "But, Mommy, I see balls of light all the time!" I didn't know much about the balls of light associated with UFO phenomena. Only that morning I had listened to a taped lecture of Debbie Jordan (of Intruders) while driving to work in which she described seeing several balls of light in conjunction with her abduction experiences. I had never mentioned this aspect of the phenomenon to my children simply because I knew nothing about it. Before tucking my daughter into bed, I asked her to draw a picture of the "balls of light" for me the next day. I forgot about this request until she came up to me the next day and handed me a picture she had drawn. I sat down with her and asked her to tell me about what she had drawn. Although I'd never been trained in investigative techniques, I'd had many courses in interviewing skills through my psychology courses. I tried to be very careful not to influence my daughter's descriptions in any way. She would point to different parts of her drawing and tell me about it. As she talked, I wrote down her exact words. First she described one ball of light she said she had seen the most. I asked her how big it was and she made a circle with her thumb and index finger. She said it was a little bigger than that. I estimated the size to be about 2 to 3 inches in diameter [Figure 7]. Then she said it was a pale, purplish color and had a "tail". She said the "tail" changed colors, like a rainbow, as it flew around. She said they fly "zig-zag" through the air and demonstrated by drawing the pattern in the air with her finger. She said she had tried to catch them but they disappeared just as she tried to grab them. I asked her how often she sees them and she said, "Oh, a lot!" She said she had come to me before trying to tell me they were in her bedroom but I just told her to go back to bed. I asked her if she saw them in the dark or the light. She said she had seen them at night, in the daytime, indoors and outdoors. I asked her if she was afraid of them and she said no, they didn't scare her. The second ball of light she described was about 2 to 3 feet in diameter [Figure 8]. I asked her to show me how big it was and she stretched her arms around in a circle to show me. She said this ball of light just floated around about a foot or two off the floor. She pointed to the middle of the ball in her drawing and said it was bright, light in the middle. She had colored the center a bright yellow. Around the bright center she said there were rainbow colors. On the outer edges she said, "There were sparkles coming from it like a Fourth of July sparkler." I asked her how often she saw this ball of light and she said she didn't see it much, maybe five times. I asked her if she saw this ball of light inside the house or outside. She said she saw it inside and outside. She then described seeing it one day when her father was driving she and her sister home from visitation. She said she saw it slowly float from the field, across the road and into our house. When she said that, it gave me cold chills all over! I'd been sitting right there in my house all that time and never knew something was in the room with me! Months later, while driving on the highway one night, Grace said, "Oh, Mommy, there are little balls of light in the car!" While trying to keep one eye on the road, I shot quick glances to the back seat but never saw a thing. I asked her to tell me what she was seeing. She said they were going in an out of the car through the roof and the door and everywhere. Then she giggled and said, "Oh! One just went through me!" I didn't know whether to abandon ship or try to out run them! Whatever they were, they didn't seem to cause any harm. After a few minutes, she said, "They're all gone now." I asked her all kinds of questions about what she had seen because I didn't know if she needed a shrink or eye-glasses. When she finally said, "Mommy, I thought everyone saw them that's why I never told you before.", I began to cry quietly. That was exactly what I thought about the Many In One when I was her age. As time passed, I came up with new questions to ask about the balls of light. One day I asked Grace if she thought the balls of light were just made of light, were machines or were alive. She said she wasn't sure about the little ones but she felt the bigger balls of light, 2 to3 feet in diameter, were alive and could think. I asked her if they ever said anything but she said she didn't remember. Grace has always been very down-to-earth, open and honest. She has never made up wild stories or told lies. She has always been very sensitive, loving, caring, and responsible. When she told me she saw balls of light, I had no reason to doubt her. I have yet to find a reasonable, logical explanation for what she describes but neither do I assume it's just her imagination. I honestly don't know what she sees. As I began to study more about UFO/abduction phenomena, I found many descriptions of balls of light seen by others that match Grace's descriptions and drawings precisely. How could a 9 year old who knew nothing about this phenomenon describe these details so accurately? And how could this be in our lives?! Again, reluctantly, I confessed to Dr. Turner one more thing I'd previously denied as part of our lives." http://www.pufori.org/these_things/> or http://members.aol.com/Dee777/index2.htm for the complete story and pictures. > This "ball of light" gave me a temporary sunburn on >one side of my face. I'll never forget it. I talked to a man that was a skeptic who went camping with a group abductees to an area in east Texas where they had been observing a lot of different phenomena. While camping in his little tent, in the rain, he stepped just outside the door of his tent to ....relieve himself.. and saw a ball of light come whizzing around him and around the tent. It certainly frightened him! Then a few days later back at his apartment, he was standing on the balcony and saw a ball of light for the second time in his entire life. It hovered a few feet from his balcony and he watched it for a few seconds. Then it suddenly shot a beam of light at his hand and he jerked his hand back in pain and shock. The ball of light disappeared but a small, circular burn remained on his hand for days. He said it was sort of like a laser had burned him. This man had just finished his master's degree in psychology and was working on his doctorate. He went camping with the group of abductees because he did not believe their claims. He does now! ;> I speculate that these "balls of light" or "BOL"s as they are being called may be around many people, not just abductees, perhaps all the time. The only reason some people don't see them is because these BOLs either exist just beyond our dimension or use frequencies of the electromagnetic spectrum to "cloak" themselves from our observation, "all of the above" or "none of the above". >I always see things out of the corner of my eyes. But only when >I'm at home watching TV. I've always thought, somehow, that >the TV screen might've been reflecting lights through the corner >of my right eye because of the TV prescription glasses I wear to >watch TV. So, on a whole, what you are saying, is that what >I thought to be reflections, might in fact be things that no one else >can see. I can only see these things through the corner of my eye. >But as soon I turn my head quickly to the right, there isn't anything >there. Yes indeed, thats very strange. Linda, not everything we see out of the corners of our eyes are really there. Some things may actually be caused by reflecting lights in the prescription glasses you wear to watch TV. Sometimes there are rational explanations especially if the phenomena occurs almost exclusively only when you wear your glasses to watch TV. However, if these apparitions coincide with other odd experiences, chances are something IS there that you can't see straight on or within the normal field of vision. I don't want to mislead you here. There certainly are reports of figures being seen only out of the corner of one's eye and these "sightings" are not isolated to the UFO/abduction phenomena. Person's who have had NDEs and OBEs also report experiencing these phenomena as well as those having other paranormal encounters. I was always a skeptic until I realized that some people DO see things beyond the limits of average human vision. Some of us only see these things out of the corners of our eyes but a few people can see these things straight on. I am researching what people see, who sees it, why and trying to find what patterns exist that are common between these individuals. You probably won't find much if any information in this area because it is little known and usually ignored when abductees and others report it. >I did'nt know that Kathy Davis saw such things. It's in her book, "ABDUCTED!" co-authored with her sister. >Thanks for your input. I'm anxious to find out more. It's helpful, >but its somewhat frightening, you know? I know it's frightening, Linda. But if it's already there whether you are aware of it or not, and if it hasn't really hurt you by now, will it make that much difference if you become more aware and learn that others experience it too? If it's gonna be there anyway, avoiding it will not make it go away. So, maybe if you know it's there, it can't surprise you anymore.? > Your information, I'm sure is helping to answer questions that > some people (like me) have kept secret. Linda, <grin> I think you kept it more of a secret from yourself than from anyone else. Can't say I blame ya, Dear!! There's a LOT of things I'd like to pretend will go away,too, if I don't look!!! ;> You are fantastic! Amy [Hebert]
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 10 DISPATCH #51 -- the weekly newsletter of ParaScope From: ParaScope@AOL.COM Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 22:02:08 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 23:42:58 -0400 Subject: DISPATCH #51 -- the weekly newsletter of ParaScope DISPATCH #51 -- the weekly newsletter of ParaScope S O M E T H I N G S T R A N G E I S H A P P E N I N G 5/10/97 Quote of the Week "[The suspects were] always criticizing the U.S. government and have discussed the evils done at Waco and Ruby Ridge." --An FBI court document requesting warrants against three Colorado militia members arraigned on weapons charges Friday. (Thought-crime, however, was not explicitly listed in the warrant.) -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Rant of the Week: May the Force Be With You Every week we pick the wackiest, scariest, nastiest or funniest rant from the hundreds of letters received by us here at ParaScope headquarters, and present it to you as our Rant of the Week. This week, as a change of pace, we present a happy letter from "Yoda," who loves us and lets us know. Enjoy! "To whom it may concern: congratulation on your 1st anniversary. as a true seeker of light i am for ever grateful for your parascope publication. hope you continue spreading the light to a planet of darkness, even if you do not have the answer, it is recomforting. MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU ALL, signed: a devote readert." [Reprinted with spelling and grammar goofs unchanged. Names changed to protect the ranters.] -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Take Control! Subscribe to the CTRL Mailing List If you tried subscribing to the CTRL list last week and couldn't, try again! (Circumstances, uh...conspired to thwart the efforts of many of you.) If you enjoy discussing theories, exchanging information and debating ideas about all aspects of conspiracies, both confirmed and theoretical, CTRL is for you. The list is, of course, free, and if your brain can't take the strain, you can always back out later. C'mon, you've got nothing to lose but your chains. To subscribe to CTRL, send e-mail to listserv@listserv.aol.com with the following in the body of your letter: SUBSCRIBE CTRL JANE SCHMOE (where "JANE SCHMOE" is your name or alias) -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Who Cares? We know for a fact some of you care. But if that's the case, why haven't you cast your vote in our new daily opinion poll? It's easy, it's fun, and you get instant online results for how you and millions (OK, thousands) of others have voted. AOL members, if you don't have your web browser in working order, you'll need it to take the new poll. Go to keyword: upgrade to update your browser. Visit our new poll today and every day at: http://www.parascope.com/cgi-bin/parapoll.pl/current -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Show Me the (Real) Money! Chat About It Till Dawn Where did all our money go? Did the government have a right to substitute fiat currency (Federal Reserve notes) for gold & silver? Could this be what's responsible for our gigantic national debt and tax burden? For that matter, just who actually is obligated for the income tax? Join PSCP 3000 for a wry inquiry into the status quo, and stay up late as we discuss this topic Thursday, May 15 from midnight Eastern till 2am (and beyond?) in ParaScope's Grassy Knoll chat room on AOL. Plus, don't forget the great chats we hold on our web site every Saturday, starting at 9pm ET. http://www.parascope.com/virtualplaces/virtualplaces.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Coming Up Next Week! Catch all these stories next week on a daily basis on America Online, or all at once next Thursday on the web site! Pentagon's Healing Hands ParaScope has obtained the final report of the military-funded experiments on "therapeutic touch" -- a questionable "treatment" that relies on unseen human energy fields. Find out what the controversy is about, and what the Pentagon got for its $350,000 investment in this unproven but fascinating method. ----------------- Artificial Intelligence: Even Better Than the Real Thing? Gary Kasparov's dramatic chess battle versus "Deep Blue" illustrates the classic conflict of man against machine. But it also brings up some unsettling -- or possibly unfounded -- fears about the permanence of humankind's dominant position over our own creations. Is artificial intelligence even possible? Will self-aware computers turn against humanity? Will HAL 9000 team up with the Terminator to kick our asses? Enigma editor D. Trull examines the AI debate and the current state of the technology. ----------------- Fake Air Force Memo Exposed One of the hazards of conspiracy and UFO research is the lurking hand of the hoaxster. The Schulgen Memo is a case study in the unwitting perpetuation of a forgery. This set of three documents, touted as evidence of Air Force knowledge of the Roswell incident, was recently proven to be a cleverly modified version of an authentic Air Force document, sans UFO-related references. Robert G. Todd explains in exact detail how he cracked this hoax. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Want to help change the world, or at least a little corner of the online world? Here's your chance. Check out the following positions at ParaScope: Sound, Music, Action! Here's your chance to write the national anthem for the conspiracy nation -- or the paranormal republic -- take your pick. ParaScope is looking for musicians and sound designers to assist in bringing life to an upcoming multimedia project that combines some of the best of ParaScope's content from our first year online. If you'd like to volunteer to compose atmospheric music or sound effects, send a note to music@parascope.com. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Jane, Stop This Crazy Thing! Thought you were tough enough to handle the Dispatch and now you realize you're not? Starting to think you've made a wrong turn off the info highway? Well, we're only going to go over this once, so listen up! To unsubscribe yourself from Dispatch: 1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com 2) In the body of your mail, type: unsubscribe dispatch That's all there is to it! Likewise, if you've received this e-mail from a friend and you'd like to subscribe yourself, just: 1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com 2) In the body of your mail, type: subscribe dispatch ---------------------------------------- ParaScope 11288 Ventura Blvd., #904 Studio City, CA 91604 America Online -- keyword: parascope parascope@aol.com World-Wide Web -- http://www.parascope.com info@parascope.com Search for other documents from or mentioning: parascope | listserv |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #134 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 11:35:50 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 08:53:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #134 > From: DRudiak@aol.com > Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 20:21:33 -0400 (EDT) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Alfred's Odd Ode #134 > In a message dated 97-05-09 07:25:53 EDT, you write: =20 > I agree with Ed Komarek. It looks like a coordinated debunking > campaign of Marcel using civilians Korff and Todd as the hatchet men, and > giving plausible deniability to those really behind it. It's no accident > this is all happening now following the Air Force's release of their > debunking Roswell report. The strategy comes under the headings= Preemptive > Strike, Mop-up, and Protecting the Rear Flank. =20 > David Rudiak We agree, it must be fact <g>! I wonder who's eating dust on the=20 rear flank -- get's messy back there! Lehmberg@snowhill.com --=20 "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake. The bunkies strutted and capered before the flames. =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1= =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1= =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1 Government or Social Harassment REPORT - Presently, "ZERO" HARASSMENT
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 18:53:25 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 08:52:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? At 11:49 10-05-97 -0400, you wrote: >Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 08:27:40 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 19:31:29 +0200 (MET DST) >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>>Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 18:20:53 -0500 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) >>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>>>From: bhamilto@pcshs.com >>>>Date: Tue, 06 May 97 07:59:10 -0700 >>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, >updates@globalserve.net >>>>Date: 05 May 97 08:58:48 EDT >>>>From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>>>>Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 13:10:52 -0700 (PDT) >>>>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>>There are lots of good guys on this list Bill. Unsung (local heros) >>>like Jerry Cohen, and Rebecca Shatte to mention but two of many. >>>And then there are those who enjoy engaging in what can only be >>>classified as a form of intellectual masturbation. They are alot >>>like the 'chatter' you have to get through when you're meditating >>>before you reach the Silence! <G> >>And there are those who decide what good guys are. >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >JC: Hello Henny. >What you say is true, however, we're all entitled to this as >intelligent, thinking, reasoning individuals. But, by the way, we >haven't heard your reply to the "Oberg/Cooper rebuttals yet." As you >know, they are located at my website. Looking forward to your >comments. >Respectfully, >Jerry Cohen I think you confuse me with Karel Bagchus who posted his interview with Oberg on this List last week. I have no opinion on Oberg and Cooper because I have not studied them. Karel's address is karel@worldonline.nl. Respecfully, Henny. __________________________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Leiden, The Netherlands \___________________________________________________/ Search for other documents from or mentioning: hvdp | rjcohen | jvif |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light?) From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 14:43:59 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 08:56:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light?) >Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:32:06 -0500 (CDT) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Yellowrose <yelorose@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light?) >>Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 04:24:05 (EDT) >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net >>From: HONEYBE100@aol.com (Linda Cortile) >>Subject: Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light?) >>Linda wrote: >>Oh no!!! Balls of light? That's just as frightening as the alien >>abduction phenonema in itself. Do you know what they are? >>Where they come from? Are we supposed to feel them when >>they're here? In my whole life, I have seen only one ball of >>light. But I wouldn't really interpret it as a ball of light because >>it had a tail on it (almost like a comet). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Amy responded, >Oh, my, Linda, I can't answer all your questions! ;p There are many >theories but no one really knows what all these things are. > The second ball of light she described was about 2 to 3 feet in >diameter [Figure 8]. I asked her to show me how big it was and she >stretched her arms around in a circle to show me. She said this ball of >light just floated around about a foot or two off the floor. She pointed >to the middle of the ball in her drawing and said it was bright, light in >the middle. She had colored the center a bright yellow. Around the >bright center she said there were rainbow colors. On the outer edges >she said, "There were sparkles coming from it like a Fourth of July >sparkler." I asked her how often she saw this ball of light and she said >she didn't see it much, maybe five times. I asked her if she saw this >ball of light inside the house or outside. She said she saw it inside >and outside. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hello Ladies, hi all, Just want to jump in for a minute to corroborate Amys' daughter and Lindas accounts of floating spheres. Cathy from our list has spheres involved in almost all of her consciously recalled experiences. I have many (very clear and lifelong memories) of strange or unexplained events in my life. (That's one of the main reasons for my involvement with folks who look into this sort of thing!) When I was a child (way back in the 50's,... and on more than one occasion) I remember being awakened and thinking that someone had turned the lights on, only to find one or two glowing spheres dancing slowly around in midair. On one other occasion that I clearly recall it was a solid (laser like) blue/white shaft of light crossing diagonally from cieling to floor. On every occasion I simply went to sleep! But the memory of those things has always been a source of questioning and self doubt. Now, at age 48 I find that these odd memorys (things I always witheld from discussing with others for fear of ridicule or rejection) are not only shared by others, but shared in exquisite detail! It's (one of the things) that contribute to my personal conviction that something real and physical is happening to us. We can't ALL have been experiencing an identical hallucination for all these many years. I saw those things, in that I have no doubt. And, just like any other meaningful life experience, it has burned itself into my brain and has in fact resurfaced more often than other memories of events in my life. There are so many of these little corroborative details that it forces one to look at them. O-K Ladies, I'm outta here, please resume your most interesting conversation. I've followed it from the beginning. Nice to have Linda around on the list as well! Hugs for you both, John Velez :) * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** * Search for other documents from or mentioning: jvif | yelorose |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Re: Roswell: Historical Facts From: TotlResrch@aol.com [Kal Korff] Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:09:20 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 09:05:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Roswell: Historical Facts In a recent posting from May 9, 1997, Vince Johnson wrote: <snip> >A third point concerns the shipment of Roswell debris to >Wright-Patterson. While this has not been proved beyond a >doubt like the press release and Blanchard's subsequently >successful career in the AF, the evidence overwhelmingly >supports the allegations that whatever debris was >recovered <was then air transported elsewhere. Dear Vince, There was indeed a flight to Wright Patterson AFB and some of the Roswell material was definitely flown there. This was only logical, because anything "unknown" that was recovered by Air Force personnel would have been sent there for analysis by their technical intelligence center and laboratory. However, as has now become known, it was Colonel Duffy that called Albert Trakowski from Wright Patterson AFB, and he called him and confirmed that the material he had been given (which had come from Roswell) was from Project Mogul!! I quote Albert Trakowski in my new book, he says: "I became aware of this (the Roswell incident) only after Colonel Duffy called me from Wright Field from his house. This was just an informal call, he just wanted to let me know that someone had come to him with some debris from (Roswell) New Mexico and he said, "this sure looked like some of the stuff that you launched from Alamogordo (New Mexico). "Duffy was very familiar with the various apparatus and materials for the project (Mogul), so if he said that it was debris from the project, I'm sure that's what it was." Question, Vince (and by the way, I have enjoyed many of your postings): If Roswell involved the recovery of a REAL UFO and there were all these flights and high-profile visitors like some of these "witnesses" claim, then WHY don't the Visitor's Logs for the base indicate any unusual activity or arrivals of various V.I.P.s such as the Lt. Gov. of New Mexico (who Randle says viewed the bodies) when a simple check establishes that he was nowhere near Roswell during the crucial days?? Looking forward to your response, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Re: 'Project Mogul' - let's get it right! From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 14:11:52 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 09:20:59 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Project Mogul' - let's get it right! Dear Group: [List Dennis, _List_ <G> -ebk] I don't know where to stick this one, so I suppose under 'Mogul' is as good as anywhere. One thing about the Roswell incident has always struck me as curious and I don't remember seeing any really satisfactory explanation for it. In fact, hardly anyone ever brings it up, but since it's relevant to the question 'how could anyone in the military make such a mistake?', we might as well run it past everyone and see what kind of response(s) we get. The issue is this: The original press release said something to the effect that a relatively "intact" flying disc had been towed into his barn by a local rancher. Presumably, the infamous press release would only have been composed after Blanchard 'debriefed' Marcel and Cavitt upon their return to base. Where did the idea of a flying disc come from in the first place, then? Given the nature of the debris field, whatever it was, there was nothing so large left that a circular disc-shape could have even been guessed at, let alone logically inferred. In the same vein, how did a debris field get translated into the relatively intact disc of the press release? Theoretically, it could only have come from what Marcel told Blanchard, seeing as Marcel was the one so excited about the debris (he stopped off and told his son he had pieces of a flying saucer). So it would seem that Marcel exaggerated the situation to begin with, and if he didn't, then Blanchard did. In other words, the press release was a complete foul-up in the first place -- at least as far as accuracy goes. A few other questions for those who think the material was so extraordinary. If it was so strong, durable and otherworldly, then how come it got blown completely to smithereens -- enough to cover a debris field 200 yards wide -- and in such small pieces? Doesn't sound like ET titanium to me. Why is the debris so basic and *simple*? I know it doesn't pay to outthink ET engineers, but one would logically expect a vast array of all different kinds of debris from a crashed, technologically advanced space craft -- everything from knobs and cushions, to seating materal and bath room fixtures, not to mention power plant parts, et cetera. Which brings me to my last point. If the Brazel debris wasn't from a Mogul balloon array, then by what cosmic coincidence would it resemble a balloon 'crash' at all? Apart from the miraculous properties (super-strong, etc.) attributed to the material, it still *sounds* (or looks) much like what made up a Mogul -- sticks, tape with pastel designs, lightweight foil and neoprene, or whatever the hell it was balloons were made of in those days. How could Marcel Sr. make such a mistake? Who knows? By the same token, who told Blanchard about a relatively intact flying disc towed into a rancher's barn in the first place? Or did Blanchard just make it up on his own? We now know that piece of 'evidence,' 'intelligence' or whatever you want to call it was totally and utterly wrong to begin with. (How much of a flying disc would it be, anyway, if Brazel could tow it across rugged country with an old flathead-six Ford pickup -- or better yet, on the back of a horse? Besides, Brazel didn't have a garage or barn at the site.) Why did Marcel then think he had found a flying disc not made on this planet? Only he can tell us that, but he's no longer alive. He had no way of *knowing* that the debris wasn't from some supersecret terrestrial technology, ours or the Soviets, nor did he have a way of intuiting that all the tiny pieces, when put back together, would form a disc shape. They could just as easily have formed a triangle or flying wing shape. Clearly, Marcel was extrapolating from the start. And I don't mean that as a character slur, but as a simple statement of fact. The Arnold case was less than two weeks old, 'flying saucers' were in the air (and news), and so was a $3000 reward. Under similar circumstances, any one of us might have jumped to similar conclusions. The same also applies to Marcel Jr. Try imagining yourself as an 11-year-old boy just rousted out of bed by your father who wants you to look at pieces of a flying saucer from another world. You'd be excited, too. Just as interesting as what Marcel did say is what he *didn't* say, and here supporters can't have it both ways. Nothing is said of a second crash site or recovered alien bodies. Yet it's inconceivable that Marcel, sent out to recover the 'first' saucer, wouldn't have been involved in any additional recoveries as well. Given his record and who he was, you can't just write him out of the loop that conveniently. In short, had there been a second crash site and bodies (and autopsies), Marcel would have known about it. If he already 'knew' a flying saucer had been recovered, there would have been no earthly reason to boot him out of the loop now. In fact, had such evidence been obtained, it's likely that Marcel would have been on his way with it to Wright-Pat instead of Ft. Worth. It's also likely that *if* a UFO and alien bodies *had* been recovered, that Blanchard would have been severely punished for prematurely announcing same without first acquiring approval and permission. You can be damn sure that if it had happened like that, that orders would have gone out to every base commander in the country as to what procedures to take when the *next* crashed UFO was recovered. Similarly, you would have expected every base in the country and around the world to have been put on a high state of alert in anticipation of the next saucer 'recovery' -- or even eventual attack. In other words, flying saucers would have been a known *reality* at that point -- and this country's first military priority, even more so than the Soviet Union. But we also know for a fact that this didn't happen. Sorry, folks, but no way that kind of immense paper trail could have been covered up. Fact of the matter is we would probably have approached the Soviets, at least by diplomatic feelers, at that point and said something to the effect that, Look, I know we just whipped Hitler, but this could be worse. After all, if a saucer could accidentally crash here, what logical reason would we have for thinking that they wouldn't crash in Russia just as easily. This is one reason why Vallee and others say the Air Force couldn't cover up the UFO phenomenon even if they had a rationale for doing so. A UFO crashing in the suburbs of Paris, for example, would make just as much news as the crash of a 747 outside Orly Airport. And Roswell, if nothing else, *implies* that saucers are as failure-prone as our own aircraft. In 50 years' time, then, if UFOs were as numerous as everyone seems to think they are, there would have been at least one unequivocal crash in the world somewhere that the US Air Force would have been incapable of sweeping under the privacy rug, no matter how big a broom they wield. SA Sasquatch Which reminds me that I feel one of those compelling self-promotional moments coming over on. My own UFO book, "UFO 1947-1997: Fifty Years of Flying Saucers," co-edited with Hilary Evans, has just been published in England by John Brown Publishing, Ltd., who do Fortean Times. I'll bore you with more details soon -- when my CIA handler tells me what to say.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Reality Check Requested From: TotlResrch@aol.com [Kal Korff] Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 21:29:38 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:52:00 -0400 Subject: Reality Check Requested From: TotlResrch@aol.com <Kal K. Korff> Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 To: Updates@globalserve.net Subject: DRudiak Reality Check Requested Dear Mr. Rudiak, I have been working on a reply to you, among many other things, but before I can continue, I would appreciate a clarification (so I can direct my response accordingly) on where you stand on a few things. 1) Do you believe that I am a UFO researcher, UFO skeptic, UFO debunker, or a UFO believer? Or, do you believe I am a government "disinformation" agent or on the payroll of some nefarious agency (you pick the agency and the group) for the purpose of detracting from the subject of UFOs?? Just WHAT is your position and WHAT are your beliefs about me? Be blunt please, and to the point. You need not pull any punches or couch your opinions in any sort of polite formalities. 2) How do you regard the testimony of Brig. General Thomas DuBose? Do you consider it to be credible? Yes or No? And do you regard DuBose's remarks where he was ADAMANT that the weather balloon story was a cover up story designed to get the press of Ramey's back to be credible? In gory detail, please, like how you very admirably stated your case in your two lengthy messages to me, would you please explain your COMPLETE position on DuBose's testimony and how you see that it fits into the Roswell scenario. These clarifications will help me address the relevant issues you raised. Unti I get a response from you, I cannot proceed any further. I would appreciate this. Respectfully yours, Kal K. Korff -- Confuscious saying: Never tell UFO believers that Roswell did not involve the crash of a real UFO or they will bombard you with at least 100 eMails each day! >-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Korff to D. Rudiak From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 16:05:49 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:19:37 -0400 Subject: Korff to D. Rudiak In a recent, lengthy posting, Dave Rudiak brought up several issues concerning Roswell and the supposed evidence that helps establish the "fact" that it involved the recovery of an alien spacecraft. He also raised other issues. This is just a short note to let all of you know that within a few days I shall have a response posted to Mr. Rudiak, who has raised some very interesting issues. Some of his points are well taken, we'll see what comes out of this. Sorry I don't have my reply ready this precise moment, but to wade through and address his lengthy claims properly, this will take some time. However, I fully intend to do this. After doing so, I will be able to cut and paste my answers to similar inquiries I get in the future since much of what he cited as "facts" are addressed throughout my new book. Respectfully yours, Kal K. Korff Confucious Saying: "Don't ever tell UFO believers that Roswell did not involve aliens or you may get more than 100 eMails a DAY in retaliation." :-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: Jeroen Wierda <mj_1@thepentagon.com> Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 16:10:17 +0200 Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:47:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:03:48 +0200 (MET DST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >Hypnosis is not dreams. [JW] I cannot debate that..:-) >>Hypnosis is notoriously unreliable. >Not so. It is unreliable only in details that have no emotional >value. Like whether a couch was blue or black. [JW] I must disagree with that. The subject can be influenced in any way that the therapist likes. The subject is defensless, and can be molded by the therapist in "remembering" situations that never really happened. The therapist can even make subjects "remember" very emotional situations that never actually happened. This has been proven and is on tape. >> People can be convinced that they've >>seen something that did NOT happen. >That's right, but irrelevant. >Because despite the fact that many hypnosis >sessions have been recorded, witnessed and transcribed, the first >alien abduction hypnosis session has yet to be found where the >therapist IS influencing the subject. In the hypnosis sessions that >are on the record the alien abduction scenario comes out without >help from the therapist. [JW] I can name a few who can clearly be seen and heard as influencing the subjects. Like Dr. John Mack, and Budd Hopkins. It is on tape that they ask their questions in such a way that the subject MUST remember. The "therapists" keep asking for more information, and IMO that clouds the subconsious minds of the subjects. The mind tries to form a picture of that event that can nicely fit with what the therapist wants. The human mind is so complex. >Believe me, any psychologist can tell you the difference between >leading questions and non-leading questions. I am a psychologist >and I know the difference. Under normal circumstances no psychologist >would consider the line of questioning done by people like Mack or >Hopkins as suspect. However, when we are talking about alien >abductions,debunk ers step in and try to connect the results of the >hypnosis session to their own pet theories, like false memory syndrom. >If psychologist Elizabeth Loftus was on this list, I couldn't >wait to debate her. [JW] I do not debate the existence of ET civilizations here, because I firmly believe that they (or a secret govt operation) are out there and abduct people. But that is beside the point. In many hypnotic sessions the therapist is trying (unknowingly?) to get the classic abduction story because he/she knows what that looks like. It is something like getting hypnosis to "remember" your undoubtly many past lives. There is many proof out there that can clearly show you that false memories can be planted inside a subject while undergoing hypnotic regression. And many proof that it is getting very emotional during those sessions too. I ask you to read one news article that is about False memory implantation: "http://www.pufori.org/news/nwscontrove.htm" it was in our march news section (March 5 1997). [JW] Best, Jeroen Wierda President of Picard UFO Research International URL to PUFORI: http://www.pufori.org/ If I do not reply to mail addressed to me within 3 days, plz resend it. Postal address: Jeroen Wierda, PO Box 352, 5201 AJ 's-Hertogenbosch, the Netherlands
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 UFOs make front page in Arizona From: xalium@netwrx.net Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 13:39:30 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:46:55 -0400 Subject: UFOs make front page in Arizona The Arizona Republic X-Files is Opened Into Phoenix "UFO" BarWood asks staff to investigate lights By Susie Steckner and Chris Fiscus. It's not exactly the kind of made-for-tv case those X-files agents would investigate. But, says Frances Emma Barwood, those strange lights in the Phoenix sky should be checked out by city staff, at the very least. "I asked them to find out if it's a hoax or what," the Phoenix councilwoman said Friday. "I did not see it. I wish someone would have called me. "Apparently, people all over the city got video of it. They all said it was as big as a football field." So Sculley---Sheryl, the assistant city manager, not X-files FBI Agent Dana Scully ---has asked police to look into the sightings, at Barwoods request. "I guess they'll ask Sky Harbor, ask the military, look at videos, I'd love to see all the videos," Barwood said. In March, callers from Prescott Valley to Tucson flooded the National UFO Reporting Center in Seattle to report the appearance of a boomerang-shaped, lighted object. The center called it "the most dramatic sighting" reported in the past two or three years. In the following weeks, it drew hundreds of calls--- even one from Las Vegas--- and resulted in an inch-thick stack of written reports, center Director Peter Davenport said. Then, in April, the sighting was featured on the out-of-this world radio program called The Edge of Reality, which is produced in New York City. "Personally, I think it's something the Air Force is working on, some sort of large transport," Barwood said. Does she believe in UFOS? "Thats a good question," she said. "I guess I have an open mind." Since God created the universe, she said, "Why couldn't he have created others?" UFO researchers so far say they have no explanation, despite asking questions around Luke Air Force Base and local airports. Davenport, meanwhile, is thrilled to hear that a public official is taking the sightings seriously. "As far as I know, this is the first time I've ever heard of a local or state body taking an official stand," he said. "I'm encouraged. I'm heartened by that." At a City Council meeting this week, Barwood said she was "a little curious" about the recent sightings. She said a television news crew asked her about the lights, and piqued her curiosity. The crew was from the show Extra, which aired a segment Thursday about the "Phoenix UFO mystery." Barwood said the main reason she asked the city to look ino the matter is because the TV crew asked why no one was investigating the reports. "I said, 'I'll ask.'" "I don't know why they (the government) don't check it out and if it was nothing, say it was nothing," Barwood said. "Being there were videos of it, it has people's curiosity. Why not check it out and see if it's a hoax?" Transcript END. Note from Tom King: I did call Barwood to see if she was serious about seeing the videos. She is. We will take appropriate steps and present the city council with the evidence as soon as we can. Apparently the Phoenix Mayor is upset Barwood is even inquiring about the sightings. I appaulded Barwood for bringing this to an official level. I also said if any type of repercussions come because of this let me know. We'll have the UFO community watch your back to prevent this sort of thing. I'll keep you posted. Tom King AZ Dir SKYWATCH INT'L E-Mail xalium@netwrx.net OVNI CHAPTERHOUSE http://personal.netwrx.net/xalium/ufovideo.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Alfred's Odd Ode #135 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:08:34 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:20:39 -0400 Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #135 Apology to MW #135 (For May 10, 1997) There are persons in torment, and it=92s genuine, bunky! They belie all your snide ribbing sneers! They=92ve crashed on the sidelines of life in such weirdness, Too casually dismissed as, say, awash in cheap beer. They write me sad letters that are truth in unwinding. Uncomplaining, they live shattered lives! One has to lie to a spouse to keep blending. . . Another is alone, and despised. "Just say it ain=92t so," another=92s relatives plead. "What do you make it up for, anyway?" "You=92ve lost everything =96 you won=92t let it alone." "Better down on your knees, stop sinning and pray!" ~ But they _know_ just what they felt and saw and heard! They _know_ they weren=92t just dreaming, that=92s absurd! What _smells_ like that in dreams where nothing=92s blurred? And the process of abduction=92s undeterred! =20 ~ I won=92t pretend to understand their horror Of events that go on past all sane control. Or that shock of strange _beyond_ a mere dishonor, Or the people ground in gears of steel, and gold. If they=92re wrong, the bunkies reason, they are pathetic. They=92re a drain on worshipped science, at the worst. But if right they readjust our rigid world view, And our white bread compilations split and burst! If they=92re right they have an insight on the changes. That may mean that what you work for is unjust. All the wealth you=92ve amassed may be ripped from your grasp And you end up on your tail in the dust.=20 If they=92re right your personal world could get uncomfortable. All your children could be thrown up in your face. All your works an abomination to the true God; All your thought=92s as filthy rags in time and space. Is it best, then, not to think that you=92re invalid? Though the evidence may point to such a case? For my part, I would rather -- start at _zero_, Than to live a life contrived, without true base. And still the walking wounded write me letters. Their misery complicated -- without surcease. Abandoned, and alone some are in tatters, Impugned, and yes, maligned, by mind police. ~ And they _know_ just what they felt and saw and heard! They _know_ they weren=92t just dreaming, that=92s absurd! What _smells_ like that in dreams, a screaming bird? While this process of abduction=92s unconcurred. =20 ~ Think "Ellen" was brave to swim out to Lesbos? Think _her_ courage so refined? It=92s, respectfully, piddle, when compared to the trouble The abducted take on as consigned! They are driven from family more than the gays. They are driven from jobs where they=92ve worked and they=92ve saved. They can=92t get a loan on a car or a home "They are stricken and dangerous -- their roads need repave!"=20 That=92s the lot in life of those who put their trust In our cultures admonition that it=92s _there_ for you! But show a little weakness in performance if you must, And they shove you where you get all cold and blue. So suffer your tattered lives, my friends!=20 Take heart it=92s un-contrived! Take heart that you are closer still To what soon we=92ll _all_ imbibe!=20 Lehmberg@snowhill.com Steven Stills soulfully warns on the oldies channel, "Something=92s happening here =96 What it is ain=92t exactly clear. . ." So damn much is made unclear. Made unclear. . .that suggests mechanism, and what is that mechanism? What _is_ happening! Be strong, you woeful effected. Ignore the jibes of the affected, and move on. --=20 "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno spat from the fundamentalist's stake.=20 =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1= =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1= =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1 Government or Social Harassment REPORT - Presently, "ZERO" HARASSMENT
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Re: Crash in Puerto Rico From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com> Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 20:48:57 GMT Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:50:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Crash in Puerto Rico >Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 01:01:11 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Crash in Puerto Rico >>Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 02:00:16 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Francisco Lopez <d005734c@dc.seflin.org> >>Subject: Crash in Puerto Rico >Hola Francisco, >you wrote, >>A woman in Ponce [s of the island, named after Ponce de >>Leon], videotaped the bright light flying over a hill. >Is a copy of this video available? I have been collecting video from all >around the world and would be very interested in comparing it to what I >already have. I am especially interested because I am Puerto Rican and I >have many family members living there. (Including my dad!) Contact me >privately or thru this list. John, Please keep me in mind with any breaking news. Listen to UFO Desk this Monday morning for news concerning the show. Things are happening. Paul Wms.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Upcoming Radio Debate on Meier Case: Korff vs. From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 19:13:37 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:49:21 -0400 Subject: Upcoming Radio Debate on Meier Case: Korff vs. FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Amherst, New York -- Kal K. Korff, President and CEO of TotalResearch and the author of two books, the critically-acclaimed "Spaceships of the Pleiades: The Billy Meier Story" and "The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want You to Know," will debate UFO researcher and author Randolph Winters, author of "The Pleiadian Mission: A Time of Awareness" on Jeff Rense's nationally-syndicated radio talkshow "SIGHTINGS". Mr. Rense's show is a radio broadcast spin-off of the venerable and highly-popular nationally syndicated television show, "SIGHTINGS". The debate is scheduled for Tuesday, May 13, 1977. The show begins at 6:00PM Pacific Standard Time (PST) and will last for two hours. It will be carried on the Internet live on the World Wide WEB and listeners can tune in from around the world by listening on their PCs using "Real Audio" or via conventional radio from your local broadcasters. For further information on the debate, or how to tune in via your PC, please consult the "SIGHTINGS" Web site at http://www.endoftheline.com where this historic debate will be broadcast and later archived. The Real Audio plug-in for your favorite WEB browser can be obtained FREE also at this site. "I am looking forward to the debate with Mr. Winters," remarked Korff. Kal Korff's last appearance on Rense's "SIGHTINGS" was this past Friday, May 9, 1997, where he discussed for two hours the research in his new book, "The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want You to Know," both available from Prometheus Books. The debate between Winters and Korff will focus on the Meier evidence often cited by its' supporters and Mr. Winters, and address allegations that the case is a hoax by Korff and the various claims he makes in his expose book -- the results of which were obtained via a secret, undercover investigation in Switzerland where Korff spent several days posing as a Meier "believer" at their Swiss headquarters. "I commend Mr. Winters for agreeing to debate the issues," Korff explained. "This is the first time we will have debated one another and the public wins in situations like this because we get full disclosure of the data and people can decide the issues and the merits of the case for themselves. I also commend Mr. Jeff Rense for leading the charge in putting this debate together." The debate will air nationwide on radio station affiliates for the syndicated talkshow. Audio casettes of the debate will be available for sale to the public just like any other episode of "SIGHTINGS", and can be purchased from the show. Jeff Rense's "SIGHTINGS" radio program is formerly known as "The End of the Line." Both Mr. Winters and Mr. Korff have appeared separately on his show in the past as guests. Mr. Korff is available for media appearances by contacting: Chris Cramer, Publicity Director, Prometheus Books, (716) 691-0133. For further press information via Email, contact Public Relations Office, TotalResearch (TotlResrch@aol.com)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 AUFORA Movie From: David Watanabe <davew@aufora.org> Date: Sun, 11 May 97 02:06:54 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:09:31 -0400 Subject: AUFORA Movie Greetings, AUFORA has added a new section to its website. AUFORA Movies offers a selection of UFO related movies (in both QuickTime and Windows AVI formats). Please check this out at: http://www.aufora.org/movies/ Thanks! Dave Watanabe http://www.aufora.org/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Major Marcel From: Stuart Livesey <livesey@trump.net.au> Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:12:42 +1000 Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:06:53 -0400 Subject: Major Marcel As a newcomer to this list, but not to the subject, I was very disappointed to see so many attacks made on a person who is no longer able to defend himself. Apart from being morally questionable such attacks achieve nothing positive. While there may be some points in Marcel's military files etc. that may be worth raising is anything really gained by openly attacking his credibility over these points. It would seem from what has appeared on the list so far that the only thing these attacks have brought into question is the objectivity of those who have raised these matters. Sure each point that has been noted does raise some questions but the answers should be left up to the individual who can reach his own conclusions after considering all the evidence so people how about we back off on the personal attacks and look objectively at the pros and cons. That way we may be able to see through the fog and identify what really happened at Roswell. One question that may be helpful to clear some of this fog is just what course did Marcel undertake at intelligence school. I ask this because, at one stage my military record nearly showed that I attended an intelligence course. This may well have raised some eyebrows if I had subsequently gone on to be involved in something like Roswell but the truth was a lot more mundane. The course I was supposed to go on merely equipped me to ask the right questions when debriefing patrol leaders. The answer for the question, as it relates to Marcel, may be just as mundane. Regards Stuart Livesey
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 MIB? From: Stuart Livesey <livesey@trump.net.au> Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 09:58:54 +1000 Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:08:41 -0400 Subject: MIB? Is it just my imagination or are reports of MIB encounters becoming fewer? If they are, does anyone care to speculate on what this means? Stuart
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Re: Roswell: Historical Facts From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:56:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Roswell: Historical Facts >From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com >Date: Fri, 09 May 97 14:06:47 cst >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Roswell: Historical Facts > We can argue the merits of particular Roswell witnesses, but there > is one inescapable historical fact that can't be denied. The > commander of the Roswell Army Air Field officially announced that the > U.S. Army Air Force had recovered a "flying disk." > Two points should be considered about this historic fact: > 1. Using a sensational "RAAF captures flying disk" press release > as a cover story for some other incident would attract more > attention to the incident than for the AAF to simply say nothing > at all. > 2. If the "flying disk" press release was an act of collosal > stupidity based on simple misidentification of any kind of > balloon wreckage, Col. Blanchard's distinguished career would > have effectively been over from that point on. We know that > Blanchard suffered no negative career repercussion as a result > of the Roswell press release. > A third point concerns the shipment of Roswell debris to > Wright-Patterson. While this has not been proved beyond a doubt like > the press release and Blanchard's subsequently successful career in > the AF, the evidence overwhelmingly supports the allegations that > whatever debris was recovered was then air transported elsewhere. >In light of this evidence, I have to conclude that something >extraordinary did occur at Roswell 1n 1947. >Vince Vince, to say I am surprised is an understatment. I applaude you on your conclusions. They are well stated and thought out. Needless to say, you and I disagree on other topics, but on this one, I stand firmly behind you. REgards, Mike Search for other documents from or mentioning: mchristo |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Other peoples arguements/junk mail From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:00:17 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:48:14 -0400 Subject: Other peoples arguements/junk mail To Ed Komarek & Kal Korff, Re: Junk mail, >Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 07:38:09 -0400 (EDT) >From: TotlResrch@aol.com >To: jvif@spacelab.net >Subject: Ed Komarek vs. The Truth >The following message is being forward to you in order to correct a blatant >lie and distortion Mr. Ed Komarek made in the latest issue of his Operation >Right to Know, issue #26, from May 10, 1997. >-------------------------------------------------------- >Ed Komarek vs. The TRUTH >Dear Mr. Komarek, >I received, of course, your latest ORTK Bulletin #26, which of course has an >attack on me written by yourself in it. I am now sending this reply to you as >a LAST attempt to keep you from further embarrasing yourself. =========================================================================== Gentleman, I will thank you not to clutter my mailbox with your direct-to-me junk email. I could really care less about who said what about who. Can't both of you do this privately without involving the rest of the world? If the fight was between two people I care about it would be different, but such is not the case. Please "unsubscribe me" to your arguement! John Velez, I've got bigger fish to fry! * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Re: ORTK Bulletin #26 From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 07:02:34 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:12:44 -0400 Subject: Re: ORTK Bulletin #26 Ed Komarek vs. The TRUTH Dear Mr. Komarek, I received, of course, your latest ORTK Bulletin #26, which of course has an attack on me written by yourself in it. I am now sending this reply to you as a LAST attempt to keep you from further embarrasing yourself. For the LAST time, Mr. Komarek, I am NOT a UFO SKEPTIC NOR A UFO DEBUNKER. AS I HAVE TOLD YOU REPEATEDLY, I SAW A UFO MYSELF AND ADVOCATE THE SERIOUS, SCIENTIFIC STUDY OF UFO REPORTS. I have even posted the details of my sighting to Errol Knapp's UFO Updates forum -- a fact you were AWARE of BEFORE you deliberately SLANDERED and MISREPRESENTED my position on the subject of UFOs. As I have also TOLD you, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THE MEIER CASE IS AUTHENTIC NOR HAVE I BEEN "PURSUADED" BY THE EVIDENCE IN THE ROSWELL UFO CASE. I regard OTHER UFO cases as more worthy of scientific study, such as certain UFO motion picture films, which consist of tangible data that can be objectively studied in a scientific laboratory. Since you have seen fit to DELIBERATELY MISREPRESENT my position on the UFO subject, DESPITE MY EMAILS TO YOU CLEARLY STATING MY OPINIONS, I can only assume that you have no interest in representing the TRUTH in this matter. Therefore, I have taken the steps to Email HUNDREDS of people around the world, setting the record straight on this issue, and I am demanding a RETRACTION AND APOLOGY from you in this matter. If you do NOT provide one within 30 days, then I shall take additional measures. I will leave it to you to theorize on what these additional measures will be. I would keep one thing in mind however: I never bluff, and I do not play Poker!! As I have also mentioned to you, I am getting ready to file the largest assortment of FOIA requests, and possible litigation suits against various agencies of the U.S. government that this field has ever seen. My efforts represent a serious attempt to have declassified as many UFO-related documents as possible. I will be announcing these actions in the media, and in fact have already started, through my numerous scheduled appearances and via my new Roswell book tour. I WAS going to consult with you on this matter, sir, and see where we might pull our mutual resources and interests together, but after seeing how you are obviously UNABLE to handle BASIC REALITY issues such as stating my position accurately when I have TOLD it to you on several occasions, I have no interest in cooperating with you. The LAST thing my new effort needs on the FOIA front is someone like you who can't tell the difference between plain UFO researchers who do not share your opinions on certain UFO cases, versus other individuals who are hardened debunkers and wouldn't believe in UFOs if one came down and abducted them. As I REMIND you sir, for the umpteenth time, I saw a UFO myself and regard the phenomenon as worthy of scientific study. I will NOT "cc" you, nor provide you with the names or fellow members in the UFO community with whom I have sent this message to. I do however, expect you to do the RESPONSIBLE thing and RETRACT AND APOLOGIZE for your colossal and stupid error. Once you supply me with the text of such a statement setting the record straight, I will make sure that it gets sent to each of the hundreds of people that I have sent this notice to. I also expect you to APOLOGIZE publicly on Errol Knapp's UFO Updates forum, where you originally made your mistake. Looking forward to you correcting the parameters your own reality distortion field, Respectfully yours, Kal K. Korff President and CEO, TotalResearch Note: TotalResearch is dedicated to studying subjects of universal concern, including topics both in and out of the realm of the so-called paranormal. UFO reports are among these topics.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Re: UFOs brought to earth with a bump From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 17:05:11 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:50:30 -0400 Subject: Re: UFOs brought to earth with a bump > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:40:57 -0400 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFOs brought to earth with a bump > >Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:44:55 -0400 (EDT) > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >From: werd@interlog.com (Drew Williamson) > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: UFO's brought to earth with a bump > >>From: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de (Joachim Koch) > >>Date: 17 Apr 97 00:55:00 +0000 > >>Subject: UFOs brought to earth with a bump > >>Organization: Welt am Draht > >>To: updates@globalserve.net > >>Date: 17 Apr 97 00:43:00 Central European (Summer) Time > >>From: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de <Joachim Koch> > >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >>Subject: UFOs brought to earth with a bump > >>Hello! > >>Here's something we retrieved for you: > >>--------------------- Begin of Document ----------------------- > >>Daily Telegraph dated 3 April 1997 > >[snip] > >>"We cannot substantiate the existence of UFO's and we are not > >>harbouring remains of UFO's" department spokesman Ken Bacon said. > ....snip.... > JC: A momentary interjection if I may. Sounds to me like you're > arguing over semantics. I don't mean to be repetitious, but .... > reading the following, previous post in its entirety (i.e. following > its links) on the web would certainly help us understand how the Air > Force arrived at its conclusion. Anyone, anywhere... reading this and > disagreeing, please feel free to write this list and tell us about > it. It's all painstakingly documented, footnoted (i.e. checkable), > accurate history. > Web address given to avoid printing the whole thing here again. It > will flow better there anyway. > >----start here---- > Re: Pentagon Denies Interest In UFOs > http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1997/apr/m07-002.shtml > >-----end here---- > Respectfully, > Jerry Cohen I have been gone for most of the past month and came back to 1200 messages, but for those who want ammunition to destroy the Air Force comments, which are merely an echo of the false and misleading letter from USAF Colonel Shubert to US Senator Patty Murray, reprinted in TOP SECRET/MAJIC, check out my five page response letter pointing out the fallacies and falsities. Hastily, Stan Friedman Search for other documents from or mentioning: fsphys | rjcohen | werd
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 ORTK BULLETIN #26 From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 21:53:55 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:55:06 -0400 Subject: ORTK BULLETIN #26 ORTK Bulletin #26 By Ed Komarek 5/10/97 _________________________________________________ INSIDE 1. ED KOMAREK CO-FOUNDER OF ORTK RESURRECTS THE BULLETIN 2. IMPORTANT: TO STAY ON THIS LIST YOU MUST SUBSCRIBE ON THE AWAITER 3. UFO/ET CONTAINMENT POLICY POST 4. KAL KORFF RESPONDS TO POLICY POST 5. ED RESPONDS TO KAL 6. MUFON'S THOMAS DEULEY WONT POST PUBLICLY CONCERNS THAT UNDERMINE CREDIBILITY OF OTHERS. PROMPTS OPEN LETTER FROM ED 7. WHATS WITH MUFON? (Editors note: Perhaps mufonhq can explain.) _________________________________________________ ORTK CO-FOUNDER ED KOMAREK RESURRECTS BULLETIN Okay folks I am getting comfortable enough on my new computer to start getting back in the saddle more formally. I have figured out how to spell check this Bulletin on my word processing program and move back and forth from email in order to edit material. Sorry Dennis Stacy you will have to make up a better straw man to trash me with now! Ha Thanks to Nick Shannon for sending me some old mailing lists. Nick has a alternate ORTK site where he posts my material. http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/1486/ For those of you that are just getting back in contact with me I have created a small mailing list on AOL. I am working to combine that with the old list to get the word out to those that have been involved with me in the past. So some of you from the past may get duplicate posts as the mailing lists are different. I won't mail Bulletins anymore out through my email at aol anymore(maybe one more), thanks to Eric Stevens and his awaiter. He has me set up with a blind copy mailings list that has a good backup. One of the problems we had in the past is that we lost subscribers because of system crashes with poor backup. This should take care of that. Mark Hines what is the scoop on the ORTK page at your site? http://galaxy.tradewave.com/editors/mark-hines/ortk.html Can we begin to update it? What are your thoughts on this. Everybody please remember that if you email me with your thoughts, opinions and research to be sure to let me know if any information is confidential so I don't publish it in the Bulletin. I want to get back to publishing more feedback. I would also like to make it very clear that the opinions presented by myself and others do not necessarily represent the opinions of Operation Right To Know (ORTK). Also anybody is free to copy and distribute this Bulletin to help in its circulation. Please help. _________________________________________________ IMPORTANT: TO STAY ON MY LIST YOU MUST SUBSCRIBE BELOW Okay here is how you can subscribe and unsubscribe to this bulletin. As those of you that have been with me in the past know, I try not to make to many mailings. A year ago I was putting out a Bulletin a week and occasionally other material. I don't want to fill up peoples email so I will try to keep my posts limited. ************* Okay when you subscribe you should get back this post showing you subscribed correctly: Could be some what different as Eric irons things out. Just follow instructions to subscribe. There are going to be some bugs to begin with. Subj: New subscriber welcome message [5/9/97 9:36:43] Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 2:42 PM EDT From: list serve@awaiter.com X-From: list serve@awaiter.com (Listserve) To: (your address) Welcome to the "ORTK-Bulletin" list. To subscribe to this list, send mail to: list serve@awaiter.com with the following text in the body of the message: subscribe ortk-bulletins To unsubscribe, send mail to: list serve@awaiter.com with the following text in the body of the message: unsubscribe ortk-bulletins You can put anything you want in the subject header To reach the list administrator mail to edkomarek@aol.com Only Ed Komarek can post to this list _________________________________________________ DEBUNKER CONTAINMENT STRATEGY POST From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 21:59:26 -0400 (EDT) To: updates@globalserve.net Subject: Debunker Containment Strategy? I would like to see a book written exploring the interactions and relationships between such debunkers as Karl Pflock, Kal Korff, Col. Weaver, Phil Klass, James Oberg, Carl Sagan, Donald Menzel etc. I would also like to see investigations of CSICOP and the tabloid press particularly the Weekly World News. These individuals and organizations have had and are having much influence on the mass media and mass consciousness. All seem to be following a common strategy to maintain the wall of denial and ridicule around the UFO/ET subject that was officially pursued in the fifties by agencies such as the Air Force and the CIA. It should be explored as to what the relationships are between these individuals and their debunking organizations and the intelligence agencies of the United States Government. Are these organizations and individuals working as honest skeptics or are they acting informally as a private UFO/ET containment arm of government? Its time that UFOlogists quit playing defense in this intelligence game. It seems quite clear to me that there is in progress a coordinated effort to discredit Roswell and the witnesses involved. In my mind individuals such as Korff and Karl Pflock are simply repeating the tried and true efforts of the debunkers before them such as Phil Klass, Donald Menzel and Carl Sagan. Through such efforts denial and ridicule of the reality of UFO/ETs has been effectively maintained for 50 years. Why has there been so little investigation into the motives, agendas, and backgrounds of the debunkers? Is it not time to put the debunkers under the same scrutiny that the UFO subject receives. Of the vast number of UFO books written I can't think of one on the debunkers. Why? I think that such qualified investigators and writers such as Kevin Randle, Stanton Friedman and Timothy Good should turn their attention toward exposing these debunking organizations and individuals. Lets take the offensive. Let the debunkers defend themselves for a change. I have seen some good material published in a limited and fragmented matter by Ed Walters, George Hansen and some others but nothing comprehensive. I am willing to bet that a well written and informative book will be a real money maker. I for one would surely buy several copies. How about you? The best, Ed Komarek
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 19 From: Masinaigan@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:36:41 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:00:59 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 19 UFO ROUNDUP Volume 2, Number 19 May 11, 1997 Editor: Joseph Trainor LARGE UFO SPOTTED IN TEXAS On Monday night, April 5, 1997, a large UFO bearing five lights was seen near the cities of Austin and Dallas in Texas. According to Peter B. Davenport, director of the National UFO Reporting Center in Seattle, his group received three calls from Texas that evening, reporting the overflights. The first call came from a man in Round Rock, Texas (population 11,812), located 40 miles (64 kilometers) north of Austin, the state capital. The eyewitness came out of his house at 8:45 p.m. on April 5 and saw "a very peculiar cluster of lights directly overhead." "The lights were of varying size...and oriented in a straight line from the caller's vantage point," the center reported. "It appeared to be at least five lights, perhaps more, and the two lights on the 'nose' and the 'tail' of the cluster were very bright, and the three lights between the two were smaller..." The witness had the UFO in view for about 10 seconds, and reported that the object passed "directly overhead, heading in a northwesterly direction." The next call came from Flower Mound, a suburb of Dallas. "Two young women were out walking, deeply engrossed in conversation, when the attention of one of the two was drawn to a strange cluster of lights overhead" at 8:50 p.m. "They reported seeing a very large cluster of five to seven individual lights overhead," the center reported. "Arranged in a slightly curving line like a gigantic pencil, tipped up at an angle." The women said the size of the cluster was "huge" and "it moved across the sky at a steady precision. Suddenly, the lights got very much brighter, then dimmed, and they then simply disappered from view...They were walking, they believe, due north, and the object was directly ahead of them while they were watching it for one to two minutes." The third call came from a man in Lancaster (population 14,807), another suburb of Dallas. "He reported that he was standing outside, when his attention was drawn to eight lights in the sky, which were oriented in an almost straight line. He said it appeared to be the shape 'of a big wing' and the formation he estimated to be 'huge.' He said he thought the formation (was) as long as 'ten airplanes lined up (nose to tail), bigger than two football fields,' i.e. 600 feet (220 meters). (Many thanks to Peter B. Davenport and the National UFO Reporting Center for posting these reports at their Website.) UFOs, BLACK HELICOPTERS SEEN IN CORONA, CALIFORNIA The city of Corona, California (population 37,791), located 40 miles (64 kilometers) east of Los Angeles, had a very strange week. The flap began April 26 when several people, including two policemen, reported seeing "a fireball in the sky." Riverside County police helicopters searched the suburbs for the supposed "burning plane," but nothing was found. (See the local paper, the Daily Bulletin for April 27, 1997, page 1) On Tuesday, April 29, Oliver Dale, a Corona resident, was driving on Highway 91, north of Sixth Street, when he "saw two helicopters flying along the freeway. No markings were seen. There is no armed forces base that I know of in the area. And those birds made about four passes back and forth in a two-hour time period." (Email Interview) On Thursday night, May 1, 1997, at 11:15 p.m., Charles Ostend said he "saw something in the sky over Riverside County, in the city of Corona. It was a bright white light, which appeared over my car and shot across the sky to a point about two miles away, in the span of two to three seconds!" "I've seen many meteors, and they are reddish," Charles added, "and it was too low and horizontal in its flight, anyway. As big as it was, if it had been a meteor, it would have hit." (Email Interview) A Riverside woman also reported seeing the same object. "On May 1, I saw a bright, white craft shoot across the sky, from a point two miles above my car to a point about two miles away. The craft, or whatever it was, then vanished completely...It has been suggested to me that I saw a meteor or a chunk of satellite entering the atmosphere, but what I saw was too big and too low. There was also no reddish glow to indicate something burning in re-entry. This seemed to have a very craft-like form of movement." ANOTHER UFO SIGHTED IN PARADISE VALLEY On Sunday, May 4, 1997, at about 10:15 p.m., William and Pamela Hamilton went out in the backyard of their home in Paradise Valley, Arizona, a suburb northeast of Phoenix, to watch the Eta-Aquarid meteor shower. Bill Hamilton is the director of Arizona's chapter of Skywatch International. "At 10:30 I had my chair turned to the northwest to look for meteors," Bill reported, "when I spotted something eerie at about 75 degrees elevation, 270 degrees azimuth west of Mars; a row of six softly- glowing objects traveling at about jet speed on a vector from south to north, without sound." "This row of lights was about three times the length of an airliner at intermediate altitudes (5,000 to 10,000 feet) (1,515 to 3,030 meters--J.T.) traveling silently without strobes or running lights," he added, "That makes the two about 350 to 400 feet (100 to 125 meters) in length. This row pivoted like a compass needle and proceeded on a northwest trajectory before leaving our sight. The duration of the sighting was about three to seven seconds. Pamela saw the same sight as I pointed and yelled. The skies are still active over Arizona!" (Many thanks to Bill Hamilton for this news story.) LUMINOUS GREEN UFO SEEN IN SOUTHERN NEVADA On Monday, May 5, 1997, at 8:30 p.m., Scott Finley, 40, and two neighbors were standing outside a home in North Las Vegas, Nevada (population 42,739) when they saw "a bright green light dropping from the sky." "I had just walked up and was listening to their conversation," Finley told the Las Vegas Review- Journal. "A few of us were looking out across the street, and we saw it. It came in at about a 60- degree angle. It was moving, but it was big. It had to be big because it looked like it was beyond Sunrise Mountain." From the group's vantage point on Monte Alban Drive, near Lone Mountain Road and Camino Al Norte, the UFO looked "about the size of a basketball above the two-story house across the street," Finley told the Review-Journal. "The ball appeared to a split-second and then dropped out of sight." "I'm not saying I saw a flying saucer or that I saw a UFO," Finley said, "But I saw something just big and green." According to the Review-Journal story, "The North Las Vegas Police Department had no reports of a green ball. Nellis Air Force Base officials could not be reached for comment." (See the Las Vegas Review-Journal for May 7, 1997, "Green Light in Sky Mystifies Residents." Many thanks for Glenn Campbell and the Groom Lake Desert Rat for posting this story.) UFO SEEN OVER POITIERS IN FRANCE On Friday, May 2, 1997, at 11:30 p.m., Albert Grosseliers was walking his dog along the river Clain in the city of Poitiers, Vienne department, in west central France when he sighted a UFO. "I saw an aerial engine that looked like a rectangular block," Albert reported. "It flew very slowly and in a rectilinear trajectory. In only one minute, it covered the expanse of the sky. My surprise was total. I saw blinking white lights on the OVNI (French acronym for UFO). Several seconds later, a small red ball appeared very close to the object." The UFO "flew very low, near the roofs of the houses," he added. (Merci a Thierry Garnier pour cette historie.) BRITISH COLUMBIA REPORTS MONTH-LONG UFO FLAP Since April 2, Canada's Pacific Coast province of British Columbia has been visited repeatedly by UFOs, with most of the sightings in the notorious "Surrey Corridor." On April 2, 1997, at 9 p.m., Mr. V. of Surrey, B.C. "saw three bright lights move away from the left side of the moon" and fly southward. He called his wife's attention to the display. Together they watched as "the lights were in a triangular formation and moved together" until the UFOs passed behind a building to the south. On April 4, 1997, at 8:55 p.m., a man riding the Georgia Strait ferry from Horseshoe Bay, B.C. to Nanaimo on Vancouver Island went topside to see the Hale-Bopp comet. While at the railing, he saw a meteor fall in the west. Then, "he saw passing overhead from behind him a bright object with a short bright tail. The object was moving from east to west on a path slightly south" of the ferry. He had the UFO in view for "approximately five seconds. The object seemed to be surrounded by a fuzzy halo. Object and halo were white in color." The UFO passed directly over the observer's head, flying west toward Vancouver Island. On April 6, 1997, at 10:15 p.m., a woman living in Port Coquitlam, B.C. (population 23,926) "looked out her window and saw a bright blue flash. She then observed a bright pulsating blue, red and white. Looking at it with binoculars, she saw a disc with red, blue and white lights. The object tilted up, revealing a white light on its bottom, then went straight up out of sight.) On the same night, April 6, at 10:15 p.m., a man in Richmond, B.C. (population 80,034) was looking to the southwest, over the Georgia Strait, when he "saw a very bright light, 'twice as bright as any other star,' pulsating with red, blue and white lights." The following night, April 7, 1997, at 10:15 p.m., a young man in New Westminster, B.C. (population 38,393) out looking for Hale-Bopp "noticed an even brighter object in the southern sky...After about 30 seconds, it started to change color from blue to red to white, then all three colors together. It repeated the exact (same) sequence twice, then the object slipped 20 degrees to the left. At its new location, it again repeated the color change sequence before zipping straight up." On April 15, 1997, at 1 p.m., a man in Burnaby, B.C. (population 131,595) spotted "a small bright red object in the sky over Burnaby Lake." At first he thought it was a "balloon," but then it began moving against a stiff wind. After a short while, "it came to a halt, wobbled about for a few moments, and slowly climbed vertically into the sky, finally disappearing into a low cloud base." On April 18, 1997, the scene of UFO action shifted back to Surrey, B.C. That evening, Ted K., his wife, and two friends "observed in the southern sky a very bright orange light, described as smaller than a dime at arm's length, moving slowly north. The object then stopped, and a very slight up-and-down, and side- to-side motion was observed. While looking at the orange UFO, suddenly a very bright white light shot straight out of the bottom at 'incredible speed,' and then made an abrupt change of direction to the right." The quartet watched the display from the area of 96th Avenue and 128th Street in Surrey and were looking towards Newton at the time. On April 21, 1997, at 10 p.m., a man standing on his balcony near 96th Avenue and King George Highway in Surrey "looked up to see an orange sphere in the eastern sky. The object was 1/4 inch in diameter at arm's length, estimated to be 3,000 feet away and 500 feet above ground. It continued in an easterly direction, stopped, then dropped down before stopping again. It then curved in an arc, rising to about 700 feet before 'winking out.' " He told UFO*BC that the UFO "was like nothing we had ever seen before." Ten minutes later, at 10:10 p.m. on April 21, in a suburban neighborhood of Surrey, a young father "came out of the baby's room and happened to look out the front window. He saw a triangular object with a round white light on each corner and a rectangular white light in the center. The object seemed close and moved past the window quite quickly." The witness put his ear to the door but heard no sound. Since he was the only adult in the house, and the baby was sleeping, he did not venture outside. (Sensible fellow--J.T.) (Many thanks to Bill, Dave, Graham, Garvis, Tracy and Steve of UFO*BC for these news stories.) BLACK HELICOPTER FLIES OVER HELSINKI, FINLAND On Saturday, May 10, 1997, at 12:02 p.m., lunchtime strollers in downtown Helsinki, the capital of Finland, were startled by the sight of a black helicopter flying at rooftop level on an unknown mission. According to eyewitness Carl Johannsen, "The black helicopter flew straight over my house, heading north-northwest. It was a kind of bulky, military transport model, not high above the treetops." Finnish armed forces use the Russian MIL Mi-8T helicopter, while the Helsinki metropolitan police use Hughes 500C and D model choppers. The unknown helicopter did not resemble either model. (Many thanks to Carl Johannsen for posting this story in Usenet.) MYSTERIOUS EXPLOSION ROCKS NEWTOWN, OHIO On Friday, May 9, 1997, at 12:08 a.m., a strange explosion rattled homes near Main Street and Debolt Street in Newtown, Ohio (population 1,817). The town is located 11 miles east of Cincinnati. Radio station WLW 700 AM aired the report on its 2 a.m. broadcast. First to investigate the case was Charles Stuart of Tri-States Advocates for Scientific Knowledge (T.A.S.K.) According to T.A.S.K., Sgt. Foster at the Hamilton County Police and Fire Dispatch Center said, "This was no bomb, it was something big. It was no random fireworks. It sounded like a propane bomb." T.A.S.K. spokesman Kenneth Young said the sergeant described the blast "as a 'deep explosion' which lasted nearly four or five seconds." A clerk at the United Dairy Farmer convenience store at the corner of Route 32 and Church Road in Newtown told T.A.S.K. that "I thought a truck had hit the back of the store. The first thing I did was look outside, and there was a patrol cruiser that just happened to be stopped at the traffic light out front. It looked like the officer was hunkered down in his seat, crouched under the steering wheel. He sat there a few minutes, and then after awhile his siren started flashing, and within three minutes, there were cops everywhere, and the sirens on top of the volunteer fire department started going off." At 8:20 a.m. Friday morning, T.A.S.K. phoned Dennis Klepper at the Cincinnati Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) office. According to Kenneth Young, Mr. Klepper reportedly said, "I heard the news report on the radio this morning, and I can't put my finger on any airplane coming out of this airport which could cause such a racket. A sonic boom would have to be a military aircraft. But if it was a sonic boom, it would have been heard beyond Newtown." On April 17, a similar "mystery boom" was heard about seven miles (10 kilometers) north of Newtown at Thielmans Mobile Home Park on Ohio Route 28 near the Interstate Highway 275 exit. A "flash of light" was also seen at the time of the "explosion." Investigations by T.A.S.K. are continuing. (Many thanks to Kenneth Young of T.A.S.K. for these news stories.) from the UFO Files... 1958: UFO APPEARS OVER URUGUAY On May 5, 1958, Carlos Alejo Rodriguez was flying his Piper Cub over Capitan Curbelo Naval Air Base in Uruguay. The base is located outside Pan de Azucar, a town 96 kilometers (60 miles) east of the capital city of Montevideo. As Rodriguez banked southward, heading out over the Atlantic Ocean, he noticed "a brilliant top-like (symmetrical above and below) object" at exactly 3:40 p.m. The OVNI (Spanish acronym for UFO) "suddenly approached his plane head-on." The OVNI "about 15 to 20 meters (50 to 66 feet) in diameter, stopped about 2,000 meters (2,200 yards) away and...'rocked twice in a balancing motion.'" "Rodriguez felt strong heat, so he removed his jacket and opened the aircraft windows. The UFO took off abruptly (south) toward the sea '...at a fantastic speed,' leaving a thin vapor trail." (See the book UNINVITED GUESTS by Richard Hall Aurora Press, Santa Fe, N.M. 1988, page 246; also THE UFO EVIDENCE (NICAP, 1964) page 120) FUN UFO WEBSITES Ufologist Dave Norris is busy these days covering sightings in Gaston and Lincoln counties in North Carolina. For an update on his findings, check out his Website at http://www.concordnc.com/dnorris/ For an in-depth look at British Columbia's UFO scene, try Bill Oliver's UFO*BC Website. They're at http://www.ufobc.org Chryse has a site devoted to a UFO photographed over Arganil, Portugal in July 1995. Is it a genuine saucer or a flaw in the film? You be the judge. You'll find the photo at http://www.terravista.pt/guincho/1139/ovni.html Normally I'd list the URLs for UFOINFO and UFO ROUNDUP at this point. But John Hayes tells me we're about to become Gypsies. More on that next issue. Right now I have to put on my headband and start practicing the violin. (Or maybe I'll just stick with the tambourine instead--it's easier, and your editor is really tone deaf.) If you see a UFO story in your local newspaper, clip it out and mail it to our snail-mail address-- UFO ROUNDUP, Box 16, 126 Toll Gate Road, Warwick, Rhode Island, USA 02886. If you have a UFO to report, contact us online at this address: Masinaigan@aol.com "Bienvenidos, amigos!" to our new readers from Uruguay. That's all for this week. Join us next Sunday for more saucer news from "the paper that goes home--UFO ROUNDUP." UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1997 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post any news item from UFO ROUNDUP on their Websites or in newsgroups so long as they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of the newsletter in which the item appeared.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 BWW Media Alert 970510 From: BufoCalvin@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:13:34 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:15:06 -0400 Subject: BWW Media Alert 970510 [The following was delivered as an HTML file - very ugly in ascci - I've converted it using an 'ancient chinese secret formula' <G> - ebk] Bufo Calvin, P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com 510-432-8102 (voice, fax, and recorded messages) TAP (The Address Project) NEARU (National Events by Area Registry of the Unexplained) Bufo's WEIRD WORLD (paper and electronic newsletter) ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert for non-commercial purposes) Well, this time I'm both late and "lite". See, it's Mothers' Day, and my brother-in-law's birthday, and I'm working on a massive deadline, and I'm switching to a new computer and I only have one monitor so it's all piece-meal, and the sun's in my eyes, and my glove is too big, and a rock got in my way ;) . I considered trying to throw something together, but I've been down to five hours sleep a few nights this week, and didn't feel I could do it tonight (being the night before Mothers' Day, and wanting to be bright and chipper tomorrow to help my seven-year old with my wife's Day. So, here's what I'm doing. I'm going to reproduce Rebecca Keith's excellent Media Watch, which is part of Michael Lindemann's CNI NEWS (see http://www.cninews.com). I have permission to do this, but only if I don't abstract it or alter the text. Therefore, you are going to get listings for a lot of fictional stuff I don't usually cover. My apologies. I'll try to get back to normally weird next week... This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!" ____________________________ Welcome to the CNI News Media Watch CNI News Media Watch Volume 30.2 -- May 9, 1997 Compiled and Edited by Rebecca Keith MEDIA WATCH is the CNI News weekly preview of CNI-related television, radio, film and print media. MEDIA WATCH is updated every Friday and covers the week from Saturday to Friday. Take it! It's free! Welcome to Media Watch. This edition covers the week of Saturday, May 10 to Friday, May 16, 1997. THIS, THAT and the OTHER... The networks will be delivering their fall lineups beginning with NBC on Monday. Don't look for "Dark Skies" to return next season (and apparently not even this season). NBC never gave the show a chance. Our only hope is that some other network will pick the show up. The USA Network announced it has "Bruce Lee's Netherworld" in development for a new series. It is a fantasy action series written by "The Crow's" John Shirley about a man guided by the spirit of Bruce Lee to avenge those in trouble. With the use of CGI technology, the late Bruce Lee will appear in the series. Also in development for the USA Network is "Spellbound," a light-hearted drama following the adventures of a witch who teams up with a detective. The SciFi Channel announced it will produce its first six-hour original mini-series -- "Invasion Earth" -- in conjunction with the BBC, as well as develop a six-hour mini-series based on the best-selling novel "Dune." "Invasion Earth" will begin production this August in Scotland with a combination of American and European actors. The story takes place in Britain over two time periods -- WWII and present day -- involves the discovery of a clandestine invasion of Earth since WWII, and abduction of its residents by multi-dimensional aliens. "Invasion Earth" and the "Dune" mini-series are being developed for the 1997-98 season and will join returning series "Sightings," and all the rest of your favorite SciFi Channel programs. "Mission Genesis" is a new series being developed as well. "Mission Genesis" is the story of two humans, Reb and Yuna in the year 2157 AD who are the guardian of the survival of the human species. The SciFi Channel will also be bringing us "Earth 2" and "Space: Above and Beyond" in the first quarter of 1998. COMING SOON TO A THEATER NEAR YOU... "The Fifth Element" is opening May 9. A lot of critics are panning the film but I still want to see it. Maybe Bruce Willis has something to do with that. "Daily Variety" chief film critic Todd McCarthy has called the film "misfired." I've picked on McCarthy before and that's because I know if he hates it, chances are I will like it. And this quote from McCarthy (who sounds just a tad pompous) is what convinces me I must see this movie: "...Willis provides just about the only recognizable thing one can latch onto amid the mishmash of half-baked futuristic, mythological, quasi-religious, big-scale action and would-be romantic motifs." DISCLAIMER: Please bear in mind that I am only human, and I do make mistakes. Show times and descriptions are not set in stone. The networks have a right to change anything they want -- and believe me, they do change things! Please check your local listings for times in your area. SYNDICATED TV... Check local listings or the web for times and stations in your area. "Babylon 5" no info. "Baywatch Nights" A boardwalk fortuneteller sends Mitch and Ryan into the future, where they see themselves facing death---and can't alter the outcome. "Psi Factor" A stone formation seems to trigger a string of deaths on an island where Peter's dad works; and a car-crash victim's persona is transferred to the driver who killed her. "Star Trek: Deep Space 9" A sub-space message indicating cloaked Maquis missiles heading for Cardassia prompts Sisko to release Eddington, hoping the rebel leader will help disarm them. "Star Trek: Voyager" Tuvok's holonovel about a mutiny aboard Voyager, originally written as a tactical training scenario, becomes a real threat to the ship when the program is discovered to have been booby-trapped by Seska. "Strange Universe" Airs 5 days a week. Check www.strangeuniverse.com for program updates. Monday includes: experimental cancer clinics in Mexico. Tuesday includes: conspiracy theories about the suicide of Clinton aide Vincent Foster. Wednesday includes: a human-growth hormone with some youth-restoring powers. Thursday includes: attempts to channel the spirit of Grateful Dead guitarist Jerry Garcia. Friday includes: three psychics who were consulted by British royalty. DAILY TV LISTINGS... All times are Eastern Time Zone. SATURDAY 5/10 11:30 am SciFi -- "Making of the Fifth Element" Highlights from the new science fiction film starring Bruce Willis. Noon A&E -- "Haunted Houses" Includes a visit to Louisiana's Myrtle Plantation, known as America's most haunted house, and Joshua Ward House in Massachusetts, where a sheriff's curse can be traced back to the Salem witch trials. 2:00 pm DSC (Discovery) -- "Mysterious World" Topic: the mystery surrounding Stonehenge and other prehistoric stone circles in Britain is investigated. 3:00 pm DSC -- "Discovery News" A news program providing in-depth coverage of the week's top stories in the fields of medicine, space, archaeology, geology, paleontology, computers, forensic science, biology, environmental science, and natural and man-made disasters. 7:00 pm A&E -- "Mysteries of the Bible" On a mountaintop in the Land of Canaan, Abraham laid down his son at God's command. 1,000 years later, David brought the Ark of the Covenant to the mount; then Solomon built the First Holy Temple. For over a millennium, three Temples would embody the yearnings of the Jewish people. What treasures are entombed beneath the Temple Mount? Included: rituals associated with the temples and their meanings. 8:30 pm SciFi [again at 1:00 am] -- "Cocoon: The Return" Sequel in which senior citizens who found eternal life on the planet Antarea journey back to Earth. 9:00 pm CBS -- "Touched by an Angel" A private woman (Diane Ladd), who is eager to have her rose hybrid officially recognized, is dismayed when three people with Down syndrome move into a group home near her, and she mounts an effort to close it down. 10:00 pm A&E [repeats at 2:00 am] -- "Mummies" Part 2: Heiroglyphics and King Tutankhamaun. Examines the poetic "sacred carvings" that ancient Egyptians believed could actually come to life, and the "boy King" Tutankhamum's tomb with the many objects a pharaoh needed in his journey to the afterlife. 10:35 pm TMC -- "Species" Tongue-in-cheek thriller about a genetic experiment that mutates into the form of a woman whose killer looks -- and killer instincts -- threaten the human race. 11:30 pm WGN -- "Alien" Oscar-winning special effects stretch the tension in this Gothic tale of an interstellar cargo ship terrorized by a monstrous stowaway. SUNDAY 5/11 6:30 am MAX -- "Robinson Crusoe on Mars" The adventures of an American astronaut on the red planet. 8:30 am MAX -- "Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai" Spacecapades of a musician-surgeon. Noon DSC -- "Mysterious Universe" Exploring mysteries surrounding religious relics, including the Shroud of Turin in Italy. Also: a visit to the Cathedral of St. Januarius in Naples. 12:30 pm DSC -- "Discovery News" A news program providing in-depth coverage of the week's top stories in the fields of medicine, space, archaeology, geology, paleontology, computers, forensic science, biology, environmental science, and natural and man-made disasters. 2:00 pm SciFi [also later at 7:00 pm and early Monday morning at 2:00 am] -- "Sightings" A visit to an Ontario jail that is reportedly haunted by the spirit of an Irish immigrant who was unjustly hanged; an investigation of a 1965 UFO sighting in New Hampshire; and a profile of a woman who is reinventing her life after an accident left her with no memory. 5:00 pm A&E -- "The Unexplained" Hauntings examines homes where occupants have claimed that ghosts reside. Also included are interviews with scientists and other experts who offer explanations for the phenomenon. 7:00 pm A&E -- "Ancient Mysteries" An exploration of the hallowed ground at Delphi where Zeus' two eagles crossed paths and the Oracle prophesied the fortunes of kings and countries. 8:00 pm CBS -- "Touched by an Angel" A spoiled young man (Charlie Schlatter) who has dreams of being a bluesman is perplexed by the instructions of his father's will, which send him on a mysterious journey to find his inheritance. 8:00 pm NBC -- "3rd Rock From the Sun" Sally becomes the toast of Rutherford after she decks a visiting celeb who had taken her restaurant table. Naturally, her fame makes Dick jealous. [Time approximate after basketball; another episode follows.] 8:30 pm NBC -- "3rd Rock From the Sun" A shy and brainy librarian is attracted to Dick and Sally realizes why she is attracted to Officer Don (Wayne Knight). Meanwhile, Tommy and Harry write a "killer" episode of "The X-Files." 9:00 pm FOX -- "X-Files" Visions of his family's past plague Mulder when he's suspected in a double murder, after waking up in a motel room with blood on his hands, two rounds fired from his gun and no recollection of why. 11:45 pm SHO -- "Outer Limits" When the crew of a space station dies, their captain (Mario Van Peebles) is accused of their murders, but he insists a sinister force was at work. MONDAY 5/12 1:00 pm SciFi -- "Mystery, Magic and Miracles" Miracles, The Virgin Mary, and Guardian Angels. 4:45 pm HBO [again Thursday at 10:30 am and 6:30 pm] -- "Coneheads" A TV skit becomes a movie! Dan Akroyd and Jane Curtin recreate their "Saturday Night Live" schtick as the "French" family next door. Of course, we know Beldar and Prymaat are really from the planet Remulak! Now they have landed in suburban New Jersey. 10:00 pm SciFi [again at 2:00 am ET] -- "V: The Series" Donovan and Ham are imprisoned in a Visitor work camp guarded by a hideous alien beast; Diana plans to use Kyle as a bargaining chip to acquire the starchild. 11:35 pm NBC -- "Jay Leno" John Lithgow ("3rd Rock From the Sun") is scheduled. TUESDAY 5/13 4:10 am MAX -- "Dark Breed" Non-stop actioner finds astronauts returning to earth as host organisms for scheming alien parasites. 1:00 pm SciFi -- "Mystery, Magic and Miracles" Mystical Powers, Graphology and a Haunted Motel 6:30 pm SciFi -- "Making of the Fifth Element" A look at the film "The Fifth Element," a science fiction drama starring Bruce Willis. 8:00 pm SciFi -- "seaQuest DSV" Extraterrestrials, "searching for the beginnings of intelligent life," are welcomed aboard seaQuest, only to be held captive by a pompous general (Jesse Doran) bent on discovering their advanced technological secrets. 8:30 pm UPN -- "Homeboys in Outer Space" Ty and Mo purchase the Ratman and Gerbil superhero franchise, little realizing the evil Rhymer has a villainous coalition ready to destroy them. Season finale features Burt Ward, John Astin and George Takei. WEDNESDAY 5/14 1:00 pm SciFi -- "Mystery, Magic and Miracles" The power of prayer, Time Travel, and "lady in white" sightings. 8:00 pm SHO -- "Outer Limits" A dark family secret emerges when a woman (Kim Cattrall) impregnates herself using the cloned cells of her dead child -- then experiences the child's memories. 8:00 pm UPN -- "The Sentinel" Jim suspects foul play when a racetrack owner and a construction foreman are found dead, but all of the evidence points to Jim's brother as the main suspect. 10:00 pm SciFi (again at 2:00 am) -- "Sightings" no info. THURSDAY 5/15 1:00 pm SciFi -- "Mystery, Magic and Miracles" Miracles, Witches of South Africa and Harriet's Ghost. 9:00 pm A&E [repeats at 1:00 am] -- "Ancient Mysteries with Leonard Nimoy" An examination of the "Bigfoot" legend includes 1967 footage of what some believe to be the creature 9:00 pm DSC [again at midnight] -- "Mysterious Universe" Examining alleged encounters with ghosts, some scary, others comical. Host Arthur C. Clarke recalls unusual childhood experiences. Also: recent theories about the supernatural. 10:00 pm A&E [repeats at 2:00 am]-- "The Unexplained" no info. 12:30 am CBS -- "The Late Show with Tom Snyder" Della Reese of "Touched by an Angel" is a scheduled guest. FRIDAY 5/16 7:00 am A&E -- "Classroom" Atlantis: the Lost Civilization." 1:00 pm SciFi -- "Mystery, Magic and Miracles" Near Death Experiences, Night Terrors and Alcatraz. 6:00 pm SciFi -- "Making of the Fifth Element" A look at the film "The Fifth Element," a science fiction drama starring Bruce Willis. 8:00 pm FOX -- "Sliders" After cornering Rickman on a world inhabited by bizarre hybrids, the sliders finally have a chance to get home -- until they encounter a scientist who's trying to create a race of slaves from the DNA of humans. 8:00 pm NBC -- "Unsolved Mysteries" A profile of a priest who reportedly has the gift of healing people with various afflictions. 8:30 pm LIF (Lifetime) [repeats at 12:30 am]-- "Pandora" Pandora explores alternative ways of looking at the world through astrology, numerology, tarot, herbs, crystals, and more. 9:00 pm ABC -- "Sabrina, the Teenage Witch" Sabrina gets help from a troll in finding a missing notebook, not knowing he wants her hand in marriage as payment. Then, when she rebuffs him, he traps her in his castle. Meanwhile, Sabrina and Harvey's relationship is in jeopardy. 9:00 pm DSC -- "Discovery News" A news program providing in-depth coverage of the week's top stories in the fields of medicine, space, archaeology, geology, paleontology, computers, forensic science, biology, environmental science, and natural and man-made disasters. 9:00 pm FOX -- "Millennium" Vacationing in the D.C. area, Frank Black nonetheless heeds the call of duty, as he tries to clear an admiral's son of murder in a horrifying case that's linked to a psychopath and capped by a cliffhanger. Part 1 of three. 10:00 pm SHO -- "Outer Limits" A young man falls in love with a mysterious woman -- the same woman his father rescued from cruel experiments 20 years earlier. ON THE RADIO... "Sightings on the Radio" with Jeff Rense Formerly known as "End of the Line," Jeff's show is really picking up steam now that the "Sightings" TV people and the Premier radio network are solidly behind him. Jeff anticipates the show will penetrate many major city markets in the coming months. Six nights a week, he interviews guests on topics ranging from investigation of UFOs and aliens to political intrigues and scandals to health and alternative medicine. CNI News editor Michael Lindemann is a regular guest every Wednesday night, doing a UFO news update. The show airs 9-11 pm Eastern time weeknights, and 11pm to 2am Eastern time on Sundays. If unavailable in your broadcast area, you can hear the show via Sightings with Jeff Rense on Audionet. Archived shows are also available. I suggest going to the website and listening to an archive show while you go about other work on your computer! Jeff has a great program. Art Bell's "Coast to Coast" Airs Monday - Friday at 2:00 am ET on many stations. Topics include just about anything. Guests are becoming more prevalent on the show but that tends to run in cycles. Guests: 5/12/97 Mon/Tue: Bryce Zabel, Dark Skies. To hear Coast to Coast via the internet go to Art Bell on Audionet. "Dreamland" Art Bell hosts a 3 hour program on Sunday evenings beginning at 10 pm ET. The program starts with a 15-20 minute segment with Linda Howe. Art then usually interviews a guest for 2 hours before he opens the phones for callers. 5/18/97 Dr. Robert Langs, author of "The Dream Workbook." Check out Art Bell's Home Page for additonal information. AT THE BOOKSTORE... "The Randle Report: UFOs in the 90s" by Kevin Randle [ISBN 0-87131-820-2] is now in bookstores. Published by M. Evans and Co., "The Randle Report" should clarify to anyone exactly where Kevin Randle stands on the Roswell crash and why. Rumors have been floating around that Randle was abandoning or giving up on the case. Nothing could be further from the truth, as demonstrated by the question he asks in Chapter 13 (The Roswell Phoenix): "...if Roswell is not the scene of a flying saucer crash in 1947, why is the Air Force working so hard to convince us that it isn't?" But "The UFO Report" is more than Roswell. In this book, Randle examines some of the best UFO cases like the Shag Harbor Incident, Travis Walton, STS-48 and so. Randle also takes a critical look at Gulf Breeze, Chupacabras, the alien autopsy, and Varginha, Brazil. Buy this book (or at least get it the library). There is a lot of good information in it and I think you will like the "new" Kevin Randle. See y'all next week Rebecca Keith XianneKei@aol.com ============================================= Media Watch is a weekly publication of CNI News, compiled and edited by Rebecca Keith and copyright 1997 by CNI News. Permission granted to reproduce and distribute on the condition that the entire text is included without alteration or omission.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Re: Upcoming Debate on Meier Case: Korff vs. From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 15:03:33 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:14:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Upcoming Debate on Meier Case: Korff vs. >From: TotlResrch@aol.com >Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 19:13:37 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Upcoming Debate on Meier Case: Korff vs. Winters >Jeff Rense's "SIGHTINGS" radio program is formerly known as >"The End of the >Line." Both Mr. Winters and Mr. Korff have appeared separately >on his show in >the past as guests. >Mr. Korff is available for media appearances by contacting: >Chris Cramer, Publicity Director, Prometheus Books, (716) >691-0133. For >further press information via Email, contact >Public Relations Office, TotalResearch (TotlResrch@aol.com) I hope everbody is aware that Prometheus Books is closely affiliated with the nortorious debunking organization called CSICOP. CSICOP means Committee For The Scientific Investigation Of Claims Of The Paranormal which in itself is a fraud as there is nothing scientific about CSICOP. CSICOP is a political organization not a scientific organization. They spend all their buttering up the press so as to insert their propaganda and disinformation into the mass media. They are masters of political warfare. The UFO community must also learn to stand up and fight back politicaly if the truth is ever to be known. Perhaps Kal would like to discuss in more detail his affiliation with this notorious debunking and propaganda operation. The best, Ed
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Re: "Project Mogul"--Let's Get it Right! From: MAC TONNIES <0212104@ACAD.NWMISSOURI.EDU> Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:43:56 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:12:09 -0400 Subject: Re: "Project Mogul"--Let's Get it Right! Dennis Stacy wrote: >Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 14:11:52 -0500 (CDT) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: 'Project Mogul' - let's get it right! >Presumably, the infamous press release would only have been >composed after Blanchard 'debriefed' Marcel and Cavitt upon their >return to base. Where did the idea of a flying disc come from in >the first place, then? Given the nature of the debris field, >whatever it was, there was nothing so large left that a circular >disc-shape could have even been guessed at, let alone logically >inferred. I think this a largely semantic problem. Just how "UFO" usually translates to "ET spacecraft" in our society," "flying disc" translated to "ET spacecraft" in 1947. I don't think Marcel had any particular shape in mind, but was using a popular term to describe what he genuinely felt was an unearthly artifact. >Why is the debris so basic and *simple*? I know it doesn't pay to >outthink ET engineers, but one would logically expect a vast >array of all different kinds of debris from a crashed, >technologically advanced space craft -- everything from knobs and >cushions, to seating materal and bath room fixtures, not to >mention power plant parts, et cetera. This is a very good point, and I agree that it's probably fruitless to out-think alien engineers. I once compared the Roswell debris to the miniaturization trend indicated by earthly technology: blow up ENIAC and you'll get all sorts of interesting bits and pieces, but blow up a Pentium chip and you're lucky to find anything interesting left. Maybe the reason a "power plant" wasn't found was because it was completely destroyed in the "explosion" that brought the craft to earth. The magnitude of such an explosion would in turn explain how the tough materials that comprised the craft managed to get scattered far and wide as "scraps." This kind of explosion doesn't seem to leave much room for intact bodies, let alone survivors. Maybe "they" ejected. **************************************************************** Mac Tonnies * #415 Franken Hall, NWMSU * Maryville, MO 64468 (816) 562-6488 * E-mail: 0212104@acad.nwmissouri.edu Web: www.nwmissouri.edu/~0212104/apu.html "Today's Abstractions are Tomorrow's Archetypes" ****************************************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Komarek & Korff From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 14:16:21 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:08:54 -0400 Subject: Komarek & Korff Debunker Kal Korff continues to blow smoke. This day after I put out ORTK Bulletin # 26 I got quite a diatribe as private email correspondence. Come on Kal keep the dialogue going in the public domain if you dare. I am sure the members of the public don't want to be left out of this feud. I do intend to address the issues and concerns that I have about you and I am sure others do too. I don't respond well to threats private or public either. It can be seen that I gave you plenty of space to get your points across in the Bulletin and I will continue to do so. By all means give me all the publicity you can. It is obvious to me that your agenda is political not scientific. This from your posts to the list serves. A good scientist and researcher does not make accusations without very strong proof to back those accusations up. A good researcher does not try to intimidate and undermine the credibility of those witnesses whose testimony does not agree with his pet theory. I expect many Roswell witnesses now feel intimidated by you, so how could you possibly do good research without a strong bias in favor of your flawed theories. Many of these same political tactics are employed by other debunkers such as Phill Klass and Karl Pflock. In my opinion you are a debunker all right. Please remember that the Late Donald Menzel who after his death it was discovered, held the highest security clearances in the country also had a UFO sighting. Later he went on to debunk his own sighting. These are all tried and true propaganda tactics. You have a long and distinguished debunker history to draw on. The fact that you state that you and Pflock have had sightings means little. I expect it won't be long that at the appropriate time before the press that you both will debunk your own sighting if you haven't already. Oh, has Air Force propagandist Col Weaver had a sighting yet? The best, Ed
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Komarek & Korff From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 14:37:27 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:09:36 -0400 Subject: Komarek & Korff >From: TotlResrch@aol.com >Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 07:02:34 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Ed Komarek vs. The Truth >As I have also mentioned to you, I am getting ready to file the >largest >assortment of FOIA requests, and possible litigation suits >against various >agencies of the U.S. government that this field has ever seen. >My efforts >represent a serious attempt to have declassified as many >UFO-related >documents as possible. >I will be announcing these actions in the media, and in fact >have already >started, through my numerous scheduled appearances and via >my new Roswell >book tour. Thats great Kal and I bet you get those documents in record time and of a nature that support the belief that all can be explained by conventional means too. This regardless of the fact that real UFO researchers have had to wait years just for scraps. The best, Ed
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light?) From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 14:40:08 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:28:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light?) John Velez wrote... >Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 08:56:47 -0400 >To: updates@globalserve.net >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light?) >>>Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 04:24:05 (EDT) >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net >>>From: HONEYBE100@aol.com (Linda Cortile) >>>Subject: Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light?) >>>Linda wrote: >>>Oh no!!! Balls of light? That's just as frightening as the >>>alien abduction phenonema in itself. Do you know what they are? >>>Where they come from? Are we supposed to feel them when >>>they're here? In my whole life, I have seen only one ball of >>>light. But I wouldn't really interpret it as a ball of light >>>because it had a tail on it (almost like a comet). >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Amy responded, >>Oh, my, Linda, I can't answer all your questions! ;p There are >>many theories but no one really knows what all these things are. >> The second ball of light she described was about 2 to 3 feet in >>diameter [Figure 8]. I asked her to show me how big it was and she >>stretched her arms around in a circle to show me. She said this ball >>of light just floated around about a foot or two off the floor. She >>pointed to the middle of the ball in her drawing and said it was bright, >>light in the middle. She had colored the center a bright yellow. >>Around the bright center she said there were rainbow colors. On the >>outer edges she said, "There were sparkles coming from it like a Fourth >>of July sparkler." I asked her how often she saw this ball of light and >>she said she didn't see it much, maybe five times. I asked her if she >>saw this ball of light inside the house or outside. She said she saw >>it inside and outside. >-------------------------------------------------------------------- John Velez then commented ... >Hello Ladies, hi all, > ... >When I was a child (way back in the 50's,... and on more than one >occasion) I remember being awakened and thinking that someone had >turned the lights on, only to find one or two glowing spheres >dancing slowly around in midair. This ongoing discussion regarding balls of light kept pinging at my memory, and finally I remembered something I read in Raymond Fowler's book "The Watchers II: Exploring UFOs and the Near-Death Experience". This book continues Fowler's investigations of the remarkably detailed UFO experiences of Betty (Andreasson) Luca. In chapter 4 of this book (The Crystal Forest), there's a fascinating discussion which just may relate to these spheres. In that chapter, Betty is being shown around a "place" during one of her experiences, and she and her guide stop at a location where there are a bunch of crystalline light balls all together. Betty asks her guide what these things are, and he replies that "those are intelligence. Those orbs ... are record keepers of intelligence, they can becomee small as what we know as atoms, or they can be come large, but they each are intelligent." ... "They are all around us .. but our eyes cannot see them. And they collect all knowledge and intelligence. They're record-keepers ... recorders of it somehow." Well anyway, there's more but I probably shouldn't quote too much of Fowler's fascinating book here. So when I hear this discussion of these light balls folks keep seeing, I can't help wondering if there's some connection. Maybe abductees, because of their experiences, are able to see these things when normal folks can't? Just a wild thought, -Brian Cuthbertson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Re: Other peoples arguments/junk mail From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 16:04:06 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:43:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Other peoples arguments/junk mail >From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) >Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:00:17 -0500 >Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:48:14 -0400 >Subject: Other peoples arguements/junk mail >To Ed Komarek & Kal Korff, >Re: Junk mail, >>Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 07:38:09 -0400 (EDT) >>From: TotlResrch@aol.com >>To: jvif@spacelab.net >>Subject: Ed Komarek vs. The Truth >>The following message is being forward to you in order to >>correct a blatant >>lie and distortion Mr. Ed Komarek made in the latest issue of >>his Operation >>Right to Know, issue #26, from May 10, 1997. >-------------------------------------------------------- >>Ed Komarek vs. The TRUTH >>Dear Mr. Komarek, >>I received, of course, your latest ORTK Bulletin #26, which >>of course has an >>attack on me written by yourself in it. I am now sending this >>reply to you as >>a LAST attempt to keep you from further embarrasing >>yourself. =========================================================================== >Gentleman, >I will thank you not to clutter my mailbox with >your direct-to-me junk email. I could really care >less about who said what about who. Can't both of >you do this privately without involving the rest >of the world? >If the fight was between two people I care >about it would be different, but such is not >the case. Please "unsubscribe me" to your >arguement! >John Velez, I've got bigger fish to fry! John: You have a concern a point here I would like to respectfuly address. The point is, is this just a feud a argument or is this a surface feature of something much larger. What I am trying to point out is that if the truth is going to get out to the public we have to fight a political war to that end. Such a war is not pleasant. The nortorious CSICOP organization is not a scientific organization as it claims. It is in my opinion a political organization dedicated to propagandizing the public. What we appear to be seeing now is a powerful political effort to discredit Roswell that is being backed by the CSICOP organization with its mass of press contacts. One very strong clue is the publication of Korff's book by Promethius Books. Kal Korff in my opinion is simply one of the latest front men in this political war to contain and confuse the UFO subject. Thus the public never becomes informed and the political UFO coverup continues. Our situation as I have expressed is not that different from that of the tobacco issue. We are not going to get the UFO/ET truth out to the public by being nice. Politics is a tough business. This tough political fight is going to go right up to hearings in Congress. In my opinion the question is do we want the coverup up to end and do what it takes to that end, or are we going to follow the failed policies of the past? I think it is going to take powerful political action not more research to solve our problem. That also means going head to head to the debunkers in the public domain as unpalatable as that might be. The best, Ed Komarek ORTK Search for other documents from or mentioning: edkomarek | jvif |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 UFOINFO and UFO ROUNDUP have moved From: John Hayes <john@ufoinfo.ftech.co.uk> Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:04:21 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:44:22 -0400 Subject: UFOINFO and UFO ROUNDUP have moved Dear Errol, I would be grateful if you could post this message, mainly to help those web site owners who have linked to my site - I have mailed 178 individuals but know there are others I have missed. UFOINFO has moved to http://www.digiserve.com/ufoinfo/ UFO ROUNDUP has moved to http://www.digiserve.com/ufoinfo/ (A very big apology to those who have just altered their links to single issues of UFO Roundup). The move was made because the site was generating too many hits on the server for Personal web space, the alternative was to take out Commercial space at a price I could not afford or close UFOINFO. I am hopeful that this site will be successful and there will be no need for another move.......I am also hopeful that everything works after having to rename nearly all my files and updating what seems like hundreds of internal links :) To those of you who have linked to individual pages within my site: You will find that some of the pages have moved into sub-directories, so it is not a simple case of changing the domain name. Regards, John Hayes. john@ufoinfo.ftech.co.uk ufoinfo@digiserve.com Visit UFOINFO at http://www.digiserve.com/ufoinfo/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:50:06 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:39:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 16:10:17 +0200 >From: Jeroen Wierda <mj_1@thepentagon.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:03:48 +0200 (MET DST) >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>>Hypnosis is notoriously unreliable. >>Not so. It is unreliable only in details that have no emotional >>value. Like whether a couch was blue or black. >[JW] I must disagree with that. The subject can be influenced in any >way that the therapist likes. The subject is defensless, and can be >molded by the therapist in "remembering" situations that never really >happened. The therapist can even make subjects "remember" very emotional >situations that never actually happened. This has been proven and is on >tape. If you followed this thread to the start, what the original contributor meant was that hypnosis is unreliable even when the therapist is NOT influencing the therapist. This is only so in details without emotional value. >>> People can be convinced that they've >>>seen something that did NOT happen. >>That's right, but irrelevant. >>Because despite the fact that many hypnosis >>sessions have been recorded, witnessed and transcribed, the first >>alien abduction hypnosis session has yet to be found where the >>therapist IS influencing the subject. In the hypnosis sessions that >>are on the record the alien abduction scenario comes out without >>help from the therapist. >[JW] I can name a few who can clearly be seen and heard as influencing >the subjects. Like Dr. John Mack, and Budd Hopkins. It is on tape that >they ask their questions in such a way that the subject MUST remember. What tape? >The "therapists" keep asking for more information, and IMO that clouds >the subconsious minds of the subjects. Of course the therapists keep asking for more information, what else should they do. But it only clouds the mind if the questions are leading. There is a distinct difference between leading and non-leading questions that debunkers are conveniently forget or are unaware of. >The mind tries to form a picture >of that event that can nicely fit with what the therapist wants. Again, only if the therapist is leading. Where is proof of this? >The human mind is so complex. No doubt, but despite that much is known about isolated aspects of the mind. In a quality book store I visit often, there are books stacked up at along a few square meters of wall space dealing solely with was is known about the mind. >>Believe me, any psychologist can tell you the difference between >>leading questions and non-leading questions. I am a psychologist >>and I know the difference. Under normal circumstances no psychologist >>would consider the line of questioning done by people like Mack or >>Hopkins as suspect. However, when we are talking about alien >abductions,debunkers step in and try to connect the results of the >>hypnosis session to their own pet theories, like false memory syndrom. >>If psychologist Elizabeth Loftus was on this list, I couldn't >>wait to debate her. >In many hypnotic sessions >the therapist is trying (unknowingly?) to get the classic abduction >story because he/she knows what that looks like. Again, examples. >It is something like >getting hypnosis to "remember" your undoubtly many past lives. Which can be true as well. >There is many proof out there that can clearly show you that false >memories can be planted inside a subject while undergoing hypnotic >regression. If you have read my previous posting carefully I said that this only happens when the therapist is influencing the subject. I know that people like Dr. Robert Baker and Dr. Elizabeth Loftus have demonstrated that implanting memories is possible. They have shown this in documentaries like "Kidnapped by UFOs", that was aired in the USA by ABC, I believe. There they deliberately try to influence the subject from the start and go to great lengths to achieve this. But it is all irrelevant toying around with pet theories because it is not what abduction therapists are doing. They have shown this in the same documentaries. So unless you provide proof of the opposite I cannot take these theories seriously. You must remember that Baker and Loftus and in the Netherlands Prof.dr. Crombagh have developed these theories in a different context, mainly child abuse, and that their theories were applied to alien abductions only after the media asked them their opinion on that subject. Apparently, they haven't studied this subject as carefully as child abuse. All this despite the fact that there are multiple witness abduction cases. See http://www.ufoic.com/faq, "What is the best evidence for abductions?". __________________________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Leiden, The Netherlands \___________________________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Re: UFOs Over Arizona and the Investigation From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 16:22:16 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:53:20 -0400 Subject: Re: UFOs Over Arizona and the Investigation From: Kal K. Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com> To: updates@globalserve.net Subject: UFOs make front page in Arizona Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 <snip> <The Arizona Republic < <X-Files is Opened Into Phoenix "UFO" <BarWood asks staff to investigate lights < <By Susie Steckner and Chris Fiscus. < <It's not exactly the kind of made-for-tv case those X-files <agents would investigate. But, says Frances Emma Barwood, <those strange lights in the Phoenix sky should be checked out <by city staff, at the very least. < <"I asked them to find out if it's a hoax or what," the Phoenix <councilwoman said Friday. "I did not see it. I wish someone <would have called me. I think this action is very commendable, I hope something productive comes out of it. <snip> < <Apparently the Phoenix Mayor is upset Barwood is even <inquiring about the sightings. I will report this to my CIA superiors and see if the Mayor of Phoenix cannot be pursuaded to "change" his mind. (My sorry attempt at a joke here folks -- no doubt some in the UFO field will regard this as "proof" that I am a CIA/Disinformation/ Debukner UFO agent!) But seriously, I have some connections into the City Hall of Phoenix (due to the Genesis III/Billy Meier fraud lawsuit from the 1980s) and will see what is behind this. As soon as I learn anything, I will post it to UFO Updates. Sincerely yours, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 Re: CPR-Canada Web Site Update - May 10, 1997 From: psa@direct.ca (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:45:22 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:59:35 -0400 Subject: Re: CPR-Canada Web Site Update - May 10, 1997 CPR-CANADA WEB SITE UPDATE MAY 10, 1997 NEW "TREE OF LIFE" AND "NUCLEAR SYMBOL" CROP CIRCLES IN ENGLAND; NEW RESEARCH PROJECTS ANNOUNCED BY COLIN ANDREWS ___________________________________________ The CPR-Canada web site has been updated again, as of May 10, 1997. In this update: New "Tree of Life" formation which appeared May 3 near Barbury Castle, Wiltshire and "Nuclear Symbol" which appeared May 2 near Stretall in Essex. Several new comprehensive research initiatives now approved for funding, according to CPRI founder Colin Andrews. For further details on these items, please check the CPR-Canada web site at: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310 Keep checking for regular updates and news on 1997 Canadian circle formations (pending - previous reports from 1995 / 1996 will be posted soon!). Paul Anderson Director CPR-Canada An Affiliate of Circles Phenomenon Research International E-Mail: psa@direct.ca Web: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 11 John 'Valez' and Other Peoples Arguments/Junk Mail From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 16:09:13 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:52:12 -0400 Subject: John 'Valez' and Other Peoples Arguments/Junk Mail Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 To: updates@globalserve.net From: Kal K. Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com> Subject: Re: Other peoples arguements/junk mail In a recent posting, Mr. John Valez wrote: <snip> <Gentleman, < <I will thank you not to clutter my mailbox with your <direct-to-me junk email. I could really care less about who <said what about who. Can't both of you do this privately <without involving the rest of the world? < <If the fight was between two people I care about it would be <different, but such is not the case. Please "unsubscribe me" to <your arguement! < <John Velez, I've got bigger fish to fry! Dear Mr. Valez, I thank you for your recent letter and in principle, I certainly agree. However, Mr. Valez, you should be aware that it was Ed Komarek, not I, that posted in his publication a blatant misrepresentation of my views. Furthermore, since Mr. Komarek made a point to distribute his misrepresentation widely to dozens of people, I made a point to do the same in order to set the record straight and make sure my views are accurately portrayed since Mr. Komarek does not care to do so. There is nothing wrong with this and it is the most effective way at dealing with people who do this. If Mr. Komarek had not done this deliberate deed, then I would have kept the eMail as it was, just between he and I. It was Komarek, however, who took it public and since he has made a point to misrepresent my views, and then widely disseminate his misrepresentation, I felt compelled to set the record straight. The public record is important. Maybe you might wish to eMail Mr. Komarek and let him know that if he continues to deliberately misquote people, despite their best efforts to set him straight, that he is doing the UFO field a disservice. Once again, I sought only to correct the public record on this. I have also told Mr. Komarek, for what it is worth, that I intend to discuss this issue no further with him...I have stated my views publicly repeatedly, have corrected his misstatements publicly, and although Komarek wants me to take our debate public "if I dare" (to use his words), enough is enough. The burden is now on Komarek to set the record straight with regard to his misrepresentation of my views. I have already done my part. I do apologize if receiving my massively eMailed letter bothered you, but remember that although I did not start this, it is my intention to end it. Case closed. Sincerely yours, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 12 MSN UFO Webshow debunks LEFT AT EAST GATE From: "Diana Hopkins" <DDBH@msn.com> Date: Mon, 12 May 97 02:22:54 UT Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:35:33 -0400 Subject: MSN UFO Webshow debunks LEFT AT EAST GATE Project: watchfire is a newsbased investigative show on UFOs. Salley Rayl of Omni's Project: Open Book is the host and head writer. Their new episode concerns the circumstances of the December 1980 sighting at Bentwaters AFB in England, written up in a book titled "Left at East Gate" by Larry Warren and well known ufo investigator Kevin Randles. The key witness in this week's case is Deputy Commander Robert Halt. Both Halt and Project: watchfire's previous guest - Jim Penniston, sgt of arms at the AFB during the incident and key witness on the first sighting (Halt was there for the second night) state that Warren wasn't even in England at the time - he was in Germany. Project: watchfire's briefing room now has background and netshow video clips on the case. On Tuesday, May 13th, they will have a live interview (with Netshow audio) where people can ask questions. Start time is at 6pm, PST. A large portion of this interview will be focused on debunking the book by Warren and Randles.. Their URL is http://watchfire.msn.com/watchfire.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 12 Re: Roswell: Historical Facts From: legion@werple.net.au [John Stepkowski] Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 08:30:53 +1000 (EST) Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 00:58:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Roswell: Historical Facts Hi Vince; Regarding; > From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com > Date: Fri, 09 May 97 14:06:47 cst > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Roswell: Historical Facts > We can argue the merits of particular Roswell witnesses, but there > is one inescapable historical fact that can't be denied. The > commander of the Roswell Army Air Field officially announced that > the U.S. Army Air Force had recovered a "flying disk." There is a lot of doubt about this. Walter Haut, who according to Randle/Schmitt et al. wrote this release, has stated many times that Col. Blanchard told him to issue it. In an article for the August/September 1992 issue of _Air & Space/Smithsonian_ magazine, Frank Kuznik wrote: Before my trip to Wright-Patterson, I tracked down Walter Haut, the retired base public information officer who wrote the infamous press release, and asked him if he ever actually saw the wreckage. "No, and I feel like an idiot every time somebody asks me that," he said ruefully. "I got a call from the base commander, who basically dictated what was in the press release." And yet the "flying disk" release states that: "The _Intelligence_ office of the 509th Bombardment group ... announced that the field had come into possession of a flying saucer. According to information released by the department _over the authority of Maj. J.A. Marcel, intelligence officer_, the disk was recovered.... The _intelligence office_ stated that no details...etc.." In the _OMNI_ article, "The Truth About Roswell", a copy of which can be found at: http://www.omnimag.com/o07jul/ros_truth.html, Dava Sobel questioned Walter Haut about this point and more confusion arises: "When Blanchard talked to you about what to say, did he use the words 'flying saucer?"' I asked. "Did he seem to be frightened?" [...] "I do not remember the minute details," Haut told me. "I feel that I've had a pretty full life, and how the colonel passed that information on to me I cannot honestly tell you. I don't know whether he called me on the phone and said, `Haut, I want you to put out a press release and hand deliver it to the local news media. Here's what I want in it.' "Or," Haut continued, "the adjutant might have called and said, `Haut, the old man's got a press release he wants you to pick up and take it around town."' When I pressed Haut about the authorship of the release, he answered frankly: "I cannot honestly remember whether I wrote it, whether he had given me the information and told me `This is what I want in it.' It was not that big a production at that time, in my mind." I couldn't believe that. Wouldn't a flying saucer have been a pretty spectacular find? "Well, there were quite a few reports of flying saucers at that time," Haut reminded me. "I had a multitude of hats I wore. I had all kinds of things to do. I asked my wife, when all this [the renewed interest in Roswell in the mid 1980s] started, `Do you remember me coming home and saying anything about it?"' Her reply, he recalled, was simply no. If Haut was ordered to announce this astonishing discovery to the world by Col. Blanchard, why do all roads lead to Maj. J. A. Marcel of the Intelligence office? And just who decided to describe the debris as coming from a "flying disk" when Marcel never saw anything remotely disk-shaped? Contrary to established Roswell lore, Haut did not know how the release came to be written. If anyone has any ideas about this I'd appreciate hearing them. > Two points should be considered about this historic fact: > 1. Using a sensational "RAAF captures flying disk" press release > as a cover story for some other incident would attract more > attention to the incident than for the AAF to simply say nothing > at all. Which is precisely what happened. Phones into Roswell and the Air Corps in Washington were deluged with callers from all over the world. It's difficult to comprehend the "flying saucer" Zeitgeist now, but after the Arnold sighting on June 24th, there wasn't a day when "flying disk/disc" stories weren't making front page news. What hasn't been explored, however, is that nobody knew what a "flying disc" or "saucer" was. Newspapers of the time used "flying saucers" as a generic term for all unidentified object reports. Jan Aldrich first pointed this out some time ago, and reading newspaper accounts from the 1947 wave verifies this. Whether the reports were of flaming objects, objects with wings glistening in the sun, discs, "snowballs", cigar shapes, or even high-altitude contrails, inevitably the newspapers headlined them as the latest "saucer" or "disc" sightings. Few reporters bothered to contemplate the wider implications of unknown objects flitting about the sky. The exciting "Men from Mars" angle was played up by some newspapers, but the majority view was that the reports themselves were sufficiently newsworthy not to need any in-depth analysis. Reporters speculated that "saucers" were weather balloons, secret military projects, "sky phantoms", "floaters" in the eyes of the witnesses and, not surprisingly, that people were most likely to see "saucers" when they were "in their cups." If someone told you in 1947 that they'd recovered a "flying disk", hardly anyone - if anyone at all - would've immediately assumed you'd found a "space ship". But based on all the newspaper reports, boy, would they have been interested! Nobody in their right mind would have used a "flying disk" cover story during the Arnold wave of 1947 and not expect to get swamped by reporters. > 2. If the "flying disk" press release was an act of collosal > stupidity based on simple misidentification of any kind of > balloon wreckage, Col. Blanchard's distinguished career would > have effectively been over from that point on. A few points here. Just for the sake of argument, let's suppose that what Marcel found really was part of "Project Mogul/Whatever". RAAF wouldn't have known anything about it - TOP SECRET project, special decoder ring, show me the secret handshake and all that - so that gets everybody off the hook. Let's also remember that at this stage nobody was talking about interplanetary space ships. "Flying saucers" were being explained as everything from balloons to who-knows-what. If Marcel had come into Blanchard's office and said he'd found a "flying disc", no doubt Blanchard would have been pleased that at last the USAAF would be able to discover the true nature of these things. But, and this is a big BUT, if Marcel had said - "Look at this stuff, it's incredible! You can't break it, bend it, cut it or burn it. And look at these weird markings. What the hell are they?" - would Blanchard have approved the "flying disc" announcement to be released? If Blanchard had handled the debris and confirmed these extraordinary properties, wouldn't he have phoned "higher headquarters" and awaited instructions first? You didn't get to be the commander of the world's only atomic-ready Air Base if you weren't a team player who followed orders. If Blanchard knew the debris Marcel recovered had incredible, almost unearthly properties, would he have permitted that news to be released without first consulting Washington? And if one of the USAAF's finest had called Washington and told Gen. Ramey or Gen. Vandenberg: "This stuff is the most amazing thing I've ever seen!" what would've been the response? "Cool! Send it to us by first available carrier. Oh, and you may as well tell the world. Get your PIO to send out a press release about it. You don't know what the stuff is? Oh, call it, um, a 'flying disk.'" How likely does that sound? > We know that Blanchard suffered no negative career repercussion > as a result of the Roswell press release. Which wouldn't have been the case if he'd been a maverick who'd decided to "spill the beans" to the world against the orders of his superiors. Or if he'd been the victim of someone else's carelessness. Whatever happened, a release seems to have been officially sanctioned. The mystery remains over who wrote the release and why they used the words they did. Concluding that a trunk full of bits and pieces were part of a "flying disk" sounds like someone desperately wanted that material to be from a "flying disk." As fast as the tumult over the Roswell "disk" arose, it subsided just as quickly. Reading the newspaper reports of the time highlights this fact. _Big News_ July 8 and 9 (the other papers were a day behind the _Roswell Daily Record_), and nothing about Roswell after the "it was just a balloon" explanation. In fact, the Roswell disk story crashed to earth rapidly after the Haut/Blanchard/Marcel/Some Guy press release hit the newswire. Here's a brief excerpt from Loren Gross's excellent _UFOs: A History Volume 1: 1947_ detailing just how quickly the press release was "deflated": [...] Bedlam. Washington was caught flat-footed. So many reporters jammed the Pentagon press room one would think money was being given away. Lt. General Hoyt Vandenberg, Vice Chief of Staff, Army Air Corps, dashed to the press room to take charge personally and bring some order out of the chaos. Fending off the pad and pencil boys, General Vandenberg got Fort Worth, Texas, Eighth Air Force Headquarters on the phone and conferred with the officer in charge, Brig. General Roger Ramey. Nearly every major American newspaper, plus some foreign ones, tied up the phone lines to the Roswell Sheriff Office of George Wilcox. The San Francisco _Examiner_, however, correctly surmised that the Commanding Officer of the Eighth Air Force was its best bet and got through just ahead of its competitors After Vandenberg hung up, General Ramey made himself available to the press. The San Francisco _Examiner_, a Hearst paper, was the first to get through to the General. The _Examiner_ found General Ramey in a seemingly jocular mood whose first words when picking up the receiver were: "Everybody in the country is trying to get through on this telephone." His statement on the saucer matter was less sensational than those coming from Roswell. The fragments, General Ramey said, were "flimsy," of a foil construction of some sort. The General had the word of Warrant Officer Irving Newton, the Fort Worth Air Base forecaster, that the thing as only a beat up weather balloon radar reflector. The Fort Worth commander expressed his consolations that he had to disappoint the news media by stripping the saucer find of its glamor. The tumult had lasted an hour. After the capture story had swelled and then burst like a bubble, military officers at Roswell Field received, according to sources known to United Press, a "blistering rebuke" from Air Corps Headquarters in Washington for their part in the panic. Consider the aftermath of the "panic". The day after the excitement had subsided, there was Gen. Ramey in his office, looking through the newspapers in which his picture featured so prominently. Nice pictures. No doubt Mom would've been proud. The phone was no longer jangling off the hook with calls from reporters, and Haut et al. had been suitably dressed down. The aggregate damage to the soon-to-be USAF? Minimal. Had it happened today, Letterman and Leno would have feasted off the incident for months, but by July 10, 1947, Roswell was just a small town in New Mexico with an A-Bomb base again. And Major Marcel seemed to agree with that. No stories from him of large numbers of C-54s descending on the base with all manner of experts, no sudden influx of unknown personnel, no heightened state of alert at the base, no major road trains driving out into the desert and, most importantly, no stories about recovered flying saucers - complete ones this time - and ET bodies being stored in aircraft hangars. As far as Major Marcel was concerned, his "saucer" was a lot of sticks/beams and bits of foil-like material that were spirited away, never to be seen again. And he wasn't even ordered not to talk about this "unearthly debris," either. > A third point concerns the shipment of Roswell debris to > Wright-Patterson. While this has not been proved beyond a doubt > like the press release and Blanchard's subsequently successful > career in the AF, Can you clarify this, please? No one is disputing that the press release was written. The question is where does the release fit into the "Big Picture" that has become the Roswell story/legend/myth? I don't understand how documenting Blanchard's career has any bearing on the "disk" story. Blanchard was a brilliant officer. When he died of a heart-attack some years later, he'd risen to the rank of three-star general. > the evidence overwhelmingly supports the allegations that > whatever debris was recovered was then air transported elsewhere. The 'Mogul' debris was transported to Ft. Worth where Irving Newton examined it. It was later flown to Wright Field where, according to the USAF 'Mogul' report, it was confirmed as meteorological equipment by a Colonel Duffy. I can't say where the flying saucer and the ET bodies ended up, though. Thought-provoking post, Vince, thanks. Perhaps we can use this opportunity to clear up the mystery of "Who Wrote The Roswell Press Release?" My guess: Major Marcel In the Study With The Typewriter... ;-) Best, John -- *----------------------------* |............................| |... legion@werple.net.au ...| |............................| *----------------------------* Search for other documents from or mentioning: legion |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 12 Re: UFO sighting, New York City From: meccam@205.252.116.10 Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 19:56:38 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:28:59 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO sighting, New York City > Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 02:13:37 -0500 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO sighting, New York City > >John Velez wrote: > Try standing underneath them as they buzz around doing tricks > over your head! The closest I can come to describing it is a > childlike state of empty headed wonder and elation. They don't > frighten me. My feeling is that they are there to be photographed > and they must get pretty frustrated up there wondering when the > dummy is going to stop gawking and get the camera so they can > get out of there! <G> > You ain't kidding! Wait till they're over Toronto! Then we can sing > Johnny's tune together! After a while we may end up with more singers > than the Vienna Boys Choir! <G> Hee-Haw > I have to make up a big sign for the aliens for next time with Phillip > Klass' photo and address on it! If ever there was a white man in need > of an alien rectal probe,...although I wouldn't want to see his keester > get 'cored' like they do with livestock. I hope for the old guys sake > that they don't get confused. <G> > John Velez :) John - we'd like to see this footage too! You are a lucky duck, seeing all that stuff! Did see some of the Arizona shots from Linda Howe's video show, and they were indeed spectacular!!!! WOW! Melanie
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 12 Re: Kal K. Korff's UFO Sighting - The DETAILS! From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 18:31:15 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:03:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal K. Korff's UFO Sighting - The DETAILS! In a recent posting, Mr. Jerry Cohen wrote: <snip> <JC: Re your sighting: Kal, I know this sounds way-out to you, <but... did you ever think "they" were trying to tell you <something? (and not necessarily that the Meier case was <true.) I had a similar experience with same kind of timing, <right over my house back in 1967. (Different craft) < <Respectfully, <Jerry Cohen To which Kal Korff replies: Dear Mr. Cohen, It is interesting you should mention this, because all three of us who saw this object did get the feeling that we were being toyed with. The object easily left us in the "dust" at times and then would slow down and stop and hover, which allowed us to "catch up" to it. I can't describe this feeling, but I did feel (I am being subjective here of course) that a bid of a "mind game" was being played. The timing of it could not have been more ironic as well. As I mentioned, I was totally burned out on the subject of UFOs and although I regarded the Meier case to be a hoax and Roswell to be REAL back then, I still believed then (and do now) that UFOs are worthy of serious, scientific investigation. It's just that the Meier stuff made things very intense and I needed a break. Naturally, after my encounter, I never did get that break and maybe some year I will take it. Would you be willing to share with me the details of your experience? I am most interested. We can do this off-List if you prefer. Respectfully yours, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 12 Reality Check Requested -- Will Korff show his From: DRudiak@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 17:22:50 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 00:51:06 -0400 Subject: Reality Check Requested -- Will Korff show his >From: TotlResrch@aol.com <Kal K. Korff> >Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: DRudiak Reality Check Requested >Dear Mr. Rudiak, >I have been working on a reply to you, among many other things, >but before I can continue, I would appreciate a clarification >(so I can direct my response accordingly) on where you stand >on a few things. >1) Do you believe that I am a UFO researcher, UFO skeptic, >UFO debunker, or a UFO believer? You have said you are a UFO researcher and UFO believer. Yet all you have written are debunking books. If you are a "believer" why aren't you also writing books about what you believe are very solid cases? You remind me of James Oberg, who claims to be a "sympathetic skeptic," yet finds it impossible to write about a single UFO case he believes has merit. > Or, do you believe I am a government "disinformation" agent or >on the payroll of some nefarious agency (you pick the agency and >the group) for the purpose of detracting from the subject of >UFOs?? Just WHAT is your position and WHAT are your beliefs about >me? Be blunt please, and to the point. You need not pull any >punches or couch your opinions in any sort of polite formalities. I don't know what you are -- honestly -- or why you do as you do. Why is this even relevant to the discussion of the facts of Roswell? You do strike me as a UFO debunker in "believer" clothing. Your personal motivations are unknown to me. Maybe you really do feel there is nothing to the Roswell case. What I don't understand is if you are a serious UFO researcher, as you claim to be, why aren't you spending most of your time digging into cases which you do feel have merit, and writing books about these? That would be one way to advance the UFO agenda, not debunking easy targets like Billy Meier. Even most UFO researchers think he's a phony. Most of the public has never heard of him. Why even spend the time debunking him? As to writing a debunking Roswell book, your motivations may have something to do with your obvious gift for self-promotion and a desire to cash in on the upcoming 50th Anniversary. I have yet seen an original argument about the case on your part. It's all been said before by the likes of Todd, Klass, Pflock, and, of course, the Air Force OSI people who did the Roswell report. >2) How do you regard the testimony of Brig. General Thomas >DuBose? Do you consider it to be credible? Yes or No? Dubose backed up Marcel about what happened in Fort Worth and added details not mentioned by Marcel and likely not known to him. Both Dubose and Marcel are further backed up by a long list of circumstantial documentary evidence and indirectly by the testimony of others. E.g., photographer C. Bond Johnson of the Fort Worth Star Telegram was immediately struck by the powerful stench of the rubber weather balloon in the office. This was AFTER both Marcel and Dubose said the real debris had been swapped with a weather balloon Ramey brought in. This would have been the same material that Marcel recovered the previous day, if this really was the real debris brought by Marcel to Fort Worth. Yet nobody who handled this debris beforehand made any comment about it having any odor. E.g., Robert Porter said he flew with Marcel to Fort Worth and handled the wrapped packages of debris. He mentioned nothing about a powerful rubber odor, or any sort of odor. He said on board the plane he was told the debris was from a flying saucer, then he was told in Fort Worth it was nothing but a weather balloon, which he didn't believe. I consider this circumstantial evidence pointing to a debris swap, just as Marcel and Dubose said. We also have statements from the newspapers, such as the N.Y. Times the next day, that the "disk" was identified as a weather balloon and radar reflector *within an hour* after the initial press release. Marcel had probably just gotten air borne at that time. We also have Ramey's statements to the Washington Press corp at the Pentagon (e.g. the Washington Post the next day) in which he described a weather balloon and radar reflector for them. Again, this seems to have been BEFORE the debris ever arrived in Fort Worth, yet Ramey told the press that he had just gone to look at it. And if you look at the San Francisco Examiner, the reporter said he contacted Ramey very early on (before Ramey's phone lines got jammed), and Ramey told him it was nothing but a weather balloon and radar reflector. Various surviving wire telegrams have the military making similar statements about the debris about an hour later, with additional changes of story from the initial Roswell base press release. E.g., the initial release by Blanchard said the rancher had found the debris a few days earlier (that was Marcel's memory of what Brazel told him as well). But an hour later, the press was being told that he found it three weeks earlier. That was to become Mac Brazel's official story a few hours later when the military marched him to a press conference in Roswell. Brazel said he initially found the debris on June 14. And the story was repeated the following day by the mysterious balloon launch team at Alamogordo who staged a phony Mogul launch for the local press, then added that Brazel undoubtably found the balloon they had launched on June 14. The problem with the story was that there was no June 14 launch. It was a complete lie. The real Mogul team had left the week before. This was a deliberate and coordinated debunking campaign. There's more, but that's enough for now. It's obvious a weather balloon cover story was being put out while Marcel was still en route to Fort Worth. The testimony of both Dubose and Marcel on the weather balloon swap is highly credible on this point. And if Marcel had really screwed up such a simple debris identification, would Ramey have written so highly of him a year later? The Air Force has a strange way of dealing with it's so-called incompetents and liars. Perhaps Kal Korff can offer an "innocent" explanation. > And do you regard DuBose's remarks where he was ADAMANT that the >weather balloon story was a cover up story designed to get the >press of Ramey's back to be credible? It's obvious Korff is trying to set me up for something here, instead of simply stating his case. It's a cheap debating trick. But yes, I find Dubose's remarks to be credible. He was saying the same things back in 1979 and didn't change his basic story up to his death in 1993. I can only speculate at this point what Korff is going to pull. Perhaps he's going to do a Phil Klass, and say that Dubose was a very old man at the end who underwent hypnosis and was very vulnerable to being led in his testimony by researchers. In other words, when you can't attack the evidence, attack the witness. Marcel is an obvious case in point. And since Dubose, an Air Force general, backed up that "liar" Marcel, he's going to have to discredit Dubose as well, plus everybody else who backed up Marcel. Or a simpler tactic, already employed by the Air Force debunkers, is to avoid mentioning that such people even existed. >In gory detail, please, like how you very admirably stated your >case in your two lengthy messages to me, would you please explain >your COMPLETE position on DuBose's testimony and how you see that >it fits into the Roswell scenario. (ASIDE: Isn't it interesting how Kal Korff repeatedly DEMANDS to know the detailed positions of others, while telling us absolutely NOTHING? Why won't Korff detail his own position first?) Dubose and Marcel were eyewitnesses who independently said there was a debris swap at Fort Worth, and are backed up in their testimony by considerable other evidence as quickly outlined above. Dubose was the only one to mention that debris was also secretly flown to Washington via Fort Worth several days before (probably 2 days before), and subsequently flown on to Wright Field for analysis. Following Ramey's press conference, the surviving FBI telegram says that Major Kirton (Ramey's head intelligence officer) "advised that the object found resembles a high altitude weather balloon with a radar reflector, but that telephonic conversation between their office and Wright Field had not borne out this belief." Well Mogul material definitely resembled a weather balloon and radar reflector, since that's what the early balloon trains were made of, but Wright Field disagreed. Why would they disagree? Perhaps the material that Dubose said they had received earlier from Washington didn't match balloon material. That's a logical inference, and would seem to back up Dubose's story of an earlier debris flight which eventually ended up at Wright. Now interestingly, the Air Force report mentions the story of a debris flight to Washington (it's in Lt. McAndrew's summary), but doesn't mention that the story came from one of their own generals (Dubose). In fact, if you look through the entire 1000 page report, you won't find Dubose being mentioned anywhere as being involved, not even to identify him in the pictures taken of him with Ramey with the radar reflector debris. They're scared to death of what Dubose had to say. Why is that? Why couldn't they bring themselves to even mention the man's name? Nonetheless they use Dubose's story anonymously, but put their own spin on it. McAndrew theorizes that the debris was indeed flown to Washington to be identified by the weather officers there, which they subsequently did. End of story. McAndrew says nothing about the REST of the story by Dubose in which the debris was flown on Gen. McMullen's personal plane to Wright Field for analysis by the labs there. This must have been MIGHTY puzzling "tin foil" and "balsa wood!" Even the weather people in Washington had no idea what it was. Why did McAndrew choose to leave out this part of Dubose's story? Other questions also present themselves. Suppose for the sake of argument that the weather people had identified the debris as coming from some sort of weather balloon and radar reflector. Why wasn't this information then relayed down through the chain of command to Dubose in Fort Worth and back to Roswell? "It's just some sort of balloon, guys?" All through this ridiculous scenario, we're continually being asked to believe that EVERYONE at Roswell, including Marcel and Blanchard, were incapable of recognizing extremely mundane materials like rubber, tinfoil, Scotch tape, and balsa wood, and then nobody bothered to be inform them of any subsequent identification, eventually leading to Blanchard's infamous crashed disk press release. Here's another logical conundrum. Supposedly Col. Duffy, original Project Officer for Mogul, now at Wright Field, a few days later calls Col. Trakowski, his Mogul replacement. Trakowski claims Duffy told him of being awakened in middle of the night by "some man from New Mexico" who shows him this crash material, and says that it had stirred up considerable press interest. From this description, it means we would be talking about the debris flown to Wright Field AFTER Ramey's weather balloon debunking of the story. Allegedly Duffy then identified it as coming from Mogul. There are a number of problems with this story, among them being its second-hand, uncorroborated nature (unlike Marcel's and Dubose's story about the debris swap). More important, there was nothing unique about this material to Mogul at all. The identical weather balloons and radar reflectors were used at military weather stations all over the country. (Irving Newton, the weather officer Ramey dragged in to identify the debris, said exactly that in 1947; he's since changed his story). In fact, they were displayed the FOLLOWING DAY in a coordinated debunking campaign of all the flying saucer reports. Pictures of the IDENTICAL radar reflectors being launched ELSEWHERE were shown in at least a few newspapers. One of these showed a launch from the weather station at Waynesville, Ohio, about a dozen miles from Wright Field. To repeat, this was the following day. So how could the sleepy Col. Duffy be so certain that the debris was from Mogul? What was the urgency in awakening the man from his beauty sleep if the debris had supposedly been previously identified, as McAndrew contends? Why not wait until morning? Why was the FBI told hours before the debris even arrived there that Wright Field DIDN'T think the debris resembled a weather balloon and radar reflector? Why would Ramey even bother to ship mundane weather balloon debris shown in the Fort Worth photos on to Wright Field for further identification? Among Dubose's memories of the event was that Ramey told the press that the planned flight to Wright Field had been cancelled. That is absolutely corroborated by the printed newspaper stories, which say that Ramey and his minions stated that the flight had been cancelled and that the debris was going to stay right there. Dubose's story sounds very credible to me. And there has been a deliberate attempt by the Air Force to avoid mentioning it or the man. This is not a balanced presentation of evidence. It is a deliberate omission of critical evidence and the use of propaganda techniques to deal with it. One wonders why Air Force debunkers would have to resort to such techniques if their Mogul case is so strong. Why not just lay it all out and let the evidence speak for itself? >These clarifications will help me address the relevant issues you >raised. Unti I get a response from you, I cannot proceed any >further. Nonsense! You could simply state your own position about Dubose first. My personal position vis a vis Dubose should have nothing to do with your own. There's absolutely no reason why you "cannot proceed any further." Why not just present your case, such as it is, and then there can be a discussion? This is just some silly game you're playing. >I would appreciate this. Fine. Play your little games. Now show your cards. David Rudiak.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 12 Disproving Ed Komarek From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 04:57:58 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:50:45 -0400 Subject: Disproving Ed Komarek From: Kal K. Korff <Totlresrch@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 To: updates@globalserve.net Subject: Disproving Ed Komarek Dear Mr. Komarek, I have put in another 17 hour day, and over this weekend have answered 108 letters. While I am still not caught up, a sizable "dent" has been made in my workload finally. My last two letters to end this work session are to you and Mr. Rudiak, the latter in another posting. Mr. Komarek, I have told you I am NOT a UFO debunker, and have had a UFO sighting myself. You refuse to accept this reality and still cling to your "conspiracy" fantasies. So be it. There is no "CSICOP" conspiracy, which you claim, to "discredit" Roswell. Colonel Corso, Hesemann and Mantle are doing a fine enough job at this all by themselves. While I do not speak for CSICOP (nor would I) I am simply unaware of any. Finally, I have some more troubling news for you, Ed: I APPROACHED Prometheus Books to publish my Roswell title. They did not approach me, nor did they commission me. I approached them, for many reasons, one of which was to see the UFO "believer" crowd cry "foul" and use CSICOP as convenient a scapegoat to avoid the real issues. It was my intention to bring this absurd argument to a head, and thanks to people like you, it worked beautifully. I did the same thing with my Meier expose. I solicited Prometheus, it was not the other way around. I am NOT a member of CSICOP, Mr. Komarek, and my relationship with them is that Prometheus Books is simply my publisher. That is all. There's nothing else to it. CSICOP does not control my beliefs, nor influence them, nor do I control or influence theirs. However, like many in the mainstream media they have found my work to be basically credible and do not have a problem with the fact that I had a UFO sighting. This should tell you (and others) about CSICOP, because it flies in the face of what they get unjustly criticzed for. Of course, I can supply you with LOTS of documentation for this fact, that I pitched the book to them and that it was MY idea, but you would probably decline to face it, just like you previously did when I have offered it to you before regarding my beliefs which you continue to deliberately misrepresent. The reason I am getting so much attention from the media (and it is only just beginning) is because I have always gotten lots of attention from them ever since I was 15, whenever I made myself available to them. I am using this attention to launch new initiatives...primarily to discuss Roswell and begin to lead a very expensive and extensive effort to obtain currently classified UFO-related documents. There are also other programs I will be announcing shortly at the proper time. I agree with you that the "cover-up," (whatever it consists of) must end. I am indeed sorry that there is no "conspiracy" going on here, it would be far more interesting if there were. However, because I can get featured on virtually every major show anytime I want, I fully expect to exploit this opportunity for the good of UFOlogy and to take its research to an entirely new level not seen before. In July, for example, a major network will air for broadcast a one hour special on UFOs which features my Meier and Roswell research, as well as some real stumpers. Perhaps this will convince you. I do not intend to engage you on such non-issues anymore, although it seems you would enjoy it, but I just wanted you to know that you are wrong once again -- I am not a member of CSICOP, and Prometheus Books, which publishes mostly NON UFO and paranormal-related titles, (a fact you ignore!) is simply my publisher. That is all. Deal with it. Finally, Mr. Komarek, you needn't fret so much about Roswell as you do. The very valid case for the declassification or UFO-related documents from the various agencies of the United States Government (which I fully support) is INDEPENDENT of Roswell and should NOT rise or fall on the ultimate fate of Roswell -- whatever that turns out to be. It is dangerous to put all one's eggs in a single basket and the UFO "cause" (to be frank) deserves better. If Roswell never existed, the case for declassifying UFO-related material would still be an entirely valid one. Again, I support this. Quit seeing conspiracies under every rock and in every nook and cranny. You may miss the REAL action! Respectfully yours, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 12 Re: MSN UFO Webshow debunks LEFT AT EAST GATE From: KRandle993@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:23:00 -0400 Subject: Re: MSN UFO Webshow debunks LEFT AT EAST GATE >Date: Mon, 12 May 97 02:22:54 UT >From: "Diana Hopkins" <DDBH@msn.com> >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: MSN UFO Webshow debunks LEFT AT EAST GATE > Project: watchfire is a newsbased investigative show on UFOs. > Salley Rayl of Omni's Project: Open Book is the host and head > writer. Their new episode concerns the circumstances of the > December 1980 sighting at Bentwaters AFB in England, written > up in a book titled "Left at East Gate" by Larry Warren and > well known ufo investigator Kevin Randles. Boy, I hope their other investigative efforts are better than this one. First, I have not written a book with Larry Warren. It was by Larry Warren and Peter Robbins. Second, I wouldn't have written a book with Larry Warren because I don't believe his tale. And third, my last name is Randle, with no "S" on the end. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 12 Japan UFO photo From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:50:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:50:42 -0400 Subject: Japan UFO photo Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:21:40 +0200 To: updates@globalserve.net From: JJ Mercieca <mufor@maltanet.net> Subject: Japan UFO photo
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 12 UFOS and RODS currently appearing over Roswell From: Patricia Mason <pmason@ee.net> Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:33:46 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:25:37 -0400 Subject: UFOS and RODS currently appearing over Roswell Hello Everyone, I found a very interesting web site about rod-shaped UFOs. Are they living beings? Jose Escamilla has over 500 hours of video of these mysterious objects. Pat Mason ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >From the web site of Jose Escamilla, Roswell Rods http://www.roswellrods.com/pre.html Welcome to the Roswell Rods Web site. For those of you that haven't heard about the RODS phenomena, you are about to find out what they are and what we are doing currently to analyze and gather more data about the phenomena. Our aim here is to inform and bring you up to speed on the phenomena, along with other news about the UFOS and RODS currently appearing over Roswell and Midway, New Mexico and other locations we are being made aware of. You will find out the difference between, insects, birds, jet aircraft and Rods and what it took to make certain we were not mis-filming anything, prior to releasing our findings to the public. All in all, this is a fun page for all of you to enjoy. I don't want anyone out there to think I am forcing you to believe or dis-believe. Your opinions and beliefs are entirely yours. I am only presenting the evidence as we are experiencing it and want to share it with you. I welcome all inquiries and questions pertaining to anything you find here at the site, and urge you to write us at:rods@rmi.net Enjoy Jose and Karen Escamilla WHAT ARE RODS? Rods are cylindrical or cigar shaped objects that have been discovered appearing in the skies. The objects are not like the typical "cigar" shaped UFOS that have been reported throughout history. The following are characteristics of Rods gathered over the past three years of our videotaped evidence and research: They are from four inches to a hundred,(or more), feet in length. Some are thin like spears. Some Rods have what appear to be "appendages" along their torsos resembling Centipedes. They travel at extremely high velocities barely visible with the naked eye. They do exhibit some form of intelligence. They are appearing everywhere. They don't appear to be mechanical or made of metal. They appear to be alive! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ********************************************** ********************************************** * UNUSUAL RESEARCH * * * * http://users1.ee.net/pmason/index.html * ********************************************** **********************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 12 Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light?) From: Cathy Johnson <rfsignal@M3.SPRYNET.COM> Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:14:12 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:48:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light?) > From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, > Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 14:43:59 -0500 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light?) > >Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:32:06 -0500 (CDT) > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >From: Yellowrose <yelorose@swbell.net> > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light?) > >>Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 04:24:05 (EDT) > >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net > >>From: HONEYBE100@aol.com (Linda Cortile) > >>Subject: Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light?) > >>Linda wrote: > >>Oh no!!! Balls of light? That's just as frightening as the alien > >>abduction phenonema in itself. Do you know what they are? > >>Where they come from? Are we supposed to feel them when > >>they're here? In my whole life, I have seen only one ball of > >>light. But I wouldn't really interpret it as a ball of light because > >>it had a tail on it (almost like a comet). > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Amy responded, > >Oh, my, Linda, I can't answer all your questions! ;p There are many > >theories but no one really knows what all these things are. > > The second ball of light she described was about 2 to 3 feet in > >diameter [Figure 8]. I asked her to show me how big it was and she > >stretched her arms around in a circle to show me. She said this ball of > >light just floated around about a foot or two off the floor. She pointed > >to the middle of the ball in her drawing and said it was bright, light in > >the middle. She had colored the center a bright yellow. Around the > >bright center she said there were rainbow colors. On the outer edges > >she said, "There were sparkles coming from it like a Fourth of July > >sparkler." I asked her how often she saw this ball of light and she said > >she didn't see it much, maybe five times. I asked her if she saw this > >ball of light inside the house or outside. She said she saw it inside > >and outside. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Hello Ladies, hi all, > Just want to jump in for a minute to corroborate Amys' daughter and Lindas > accounts of floating spheres. Cathy from our list has spheres involved in > almost all of her consciously recalled experiences. > I have many (very clear and lifelong memories) of strange or unexplained > events in my life. (That's one of the main reasons for my involvement > with folks who look into this sort of thing!) > When I was a child (way back in the 50's,... and on more than one occasion) > I remember being awakened and thinking that someone had turned the lights > on, only to find one or two glowing spheres dancing slowly around in > midair. On one other occasion that I clearly recall it was a solid (laser > like) blue/white shaft of light crossing diagonally from cieling to floor. Thankyou for the intro, John. I was skulking around and saving these dear messages for my own. And, I was hoping to share at some time. Yet, I didn't want to be bothered by any kind of debate about the realities or existence of 'UFO's' and aliens. For me, there is simply no question about the fact that I have been convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that there is an alien presence interacting with humanity. I'm not about to convince anyone of anything. But, I will say what I care to about the things I know to be true only as I can know them to be relevant or valid information. I only want to help those who need help and will accept what I have to say. Yes, I know a lot about these little lights, globes up to four feet across. They are different sizes of artificially sentient remote sensing and surveying units. I had a two year long friendship with a Sphere that began in 1961. I still remember all kinds of information about my experiences, no hypnosis at all. At the moment, I am trying to write a new book about my experiences. It is a major undertaking for a trucker that I am. So far, I have spent three years of difficult writing, after learning about computers, to get what little of my memories that have been exposed. Still, I remember more as I write. It is such a complex process of remembering and reliving events of so long ago, then of trying to translate it all into words before I begin to type it. It is such a jumbled mess to work with. Yet, there is no trace of doubt in my mind about my experiences. Take care for now, Cathy Johnson Search for other documents from or mentioning: rfsignal | jvif |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 12 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com Date: 09 May 97 17:46:59 cst Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:55:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 16:55:14 -0700 (PDT) >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? The debate between Jim Deardorff and myself on the Meier affair continues: >> The difference between Ed Walters and Billy Meier is this: Ed >>Walters, while his numerous UFO photos rival Meier's, has never >>established himself as a self-proclaimed Cosmic Emissary of an alien >>race, as Meier has done. >The latter is just your assumption. Upon treating Meier's supportive >witnesses seriously, plus all his photo evidence that Korff couldn't >refute, one finds that Meier was just relaying what he was told by his >contactees. If it all didn't happen, then you're right. If it did >happen, then Meier was indeed selected by these aliens to be their prime >contactee -- call him a Cosmic Emissary then if you wish. Only if one believes Meier's story. I don't. I also don't accept "supporting witnesses" as definitive proof that any of this really happened. Do you believe that Joseph Smith really was given enscribed golden plates by the angel Moroni? He had "eyewitnesses" that verified the existence of the plates (although most of them later hedged, saying they saw them "spiritually," not literally). In short, supportive eyewitnesses -- especially in the furtherance of a particular ideology -- doesn't necessarily prove anything. Of course, I could be wrong, and Meier's story could be true just as he's told it. But in my experience, such grandiose tales are the result of either neuroses or scams. You wouldn't refute this observation, would you? >>In my opinion, the Gulf Breeze sightings must remain classified as >>"unknown" -- which tends to indicate that anomalous events are >>actually occuring. Contrast that with Meier's extensive "contact notes" >>with extraterrestrials he claims to know by name, place of origin, etc. >There's not that much contrast there: We know what Meier was told their >names were, we don't know if those were their real names; they could >use other names within their own society. They told him they were from >the Pleiades, but one doesn't know if this was true; later they told him >they were from some 80 light-years beyond the Pleiades, and we also >don't know if that was true. Etc. No Jim, we don't know that these conversations or any aspect of the Meier saga really happened. If you suspect that everything Meier's aliens say is a lie, what does that say about their motives regarding the 'Prime Directive,' etc.? Wouldn't that put Meier's Pleiadians more into the metaphysical realm of "elementals" (disembodied tricksters) as opposed to material/technical ET lifeforms? In either event (ET or elemental), such lying entities should be denounced -- not idolized. > These types of contactee accounts are wholly inconsistent with the > consistently inexplicable nature of the UFO phenomenon throughout > history, worldwide. >Your sentence would make more sense if you had used the word >"consistent." Surely it's just as inexplicable in the Meier case how >his aliens could render their craft invisible, or cause it to jump away >from one place to another faster than the eye can follow, as in CE1 >reports. Nope, I don't think so. That kind of stuff is just technological. We'll probably be able to do that kind of stuff in 100 years or so -- maybe less. It's the motivation and methodology that you ascribe to them that I find utterly inexplicable. >>> This "Prime Directive" seems to apply to society as a whole, but not >>>to the selected individuals (UFO witnesses and abductees..) upon whom >>>the task has been imposed to try to persuade their fellow man that the >>>alien presence is real. >> I think you'll agree that if they wanted to, ET ufonauts could find >>a much more efficient means to reveal their presence. >I apologize to others for your forcing me to repeat so much here. But we >agreed a short time back that they *don't* want to reveal their presence to >all of society, at least not yet, since they obviously haven't done >that. And the Prime Directive idea goes along with this. But that >doesn't mean that they can't reveal themselves to one or more isolated >individuals; then when those individuals report what transpired with >them, others can believe it or not, depending upon how open or closed >their belief system is. >> Why would they use a >> method that was so ambiguous -- and frankly, unbelievable? >Again I repeat, if it were believable to scientists as a whole, and then >to society, their coverup would be blown. I see. Meier's aliens have a plan to reveal their existence by presenting irrational, inconsistent and frankly, unbelievable evidence for their presence through contact with a single human, Billy Meier. Thus, the "spiritually attuned" will become aware of their presence, while the other 99.9999% of the Earth's population will remain blissfully unaware of this momentous revelation -- victims of the aliens own ongoing efforts to obscure their own presence. Don't you see the huge inconsistency here? They reveal themselves -- but continue to obscure their existence. Tell me how this makes any sense at all. >> These sorts of >> contact accounts have been put forth since 1947 -- without any >>result > other than to call the sanity and/or motives of the contact >>claimants into question. (snip) >In my case it also caused me to become a New Testament Gospel scholar and >understand the origins of Christianity and at just which points orthodoxy >and "mainstream" scholars alike went astray. This from careful study of >the Talmud of Jmmanuel and comparing it with both the internal (biblical) >and external evidence. Didn't Meier claim to have discovered the "Talmud of Jmmanuel"? Did anyone else ever see it, or is it like Joseph Smith's golden plates -- a creation of his imagination with no basis in physical, material reality? Like J. Smith, Meier seems intent on founding his own religion. >> As I recently posted to Michael Hesemann: >> You could make this same argument for any and all contactee accounts -- >> no matter how ludicrous. I could just as easily make the claim that I >> met Santa Claus, and that he told me that he really lives on Venus, and >> furthermore, I could produce impressive photos of the jolly old elf >> and several "witnesses" who would verify my account. >Now you've suddenly forgotten all about Meier's photo evidence and >supportive witnesses. E.g. there's an interesting video tape that shows >a Japanese ufologist interviewing Kalliope Meier, with Herbert Runkel as >translator, and interviewing two of her children who also had the daytime >sighting of Semjase's beamship. One of the children had even drawn a >picture of it soon afterwards, which he showed. Though Kalliope by now >may be a hostile witness, she couldn't deny what she and her three >children saw with their own eyes, and didn't deny it on the video tape. >So forget your Santa Claus argument. I could create convincing photos of Santa Clause. I could gather a group to swear they had seen Santa (I suspect this could be accomplished for as little as $25 per "eyewitness"). Based on the incredible incredulity running rampant, I daresay I could even attract a following. If I have photos and eyewitnesses my Santa claim would have just as much supportive evidence as Billy Meier. The Santa Claus argument is a valid one, Jim. Why can't you admit this? And from what I'm reading, Kalliope is denying the entire scam now. Is she lying now or was she lying then? Oddly, one wouldn't expect such bitterness from a woman so blessed to have been married to The Most Special Human On Earth. She now seems singularly unimpressed with her husband, Semjase, and the Pleiadians in general. Nothing like a nasty divorce to air the dirty laundry... Regards, Vince Search for other documents from or mentioning:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 12 Korff & Komarek From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:41:49 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:41:49 -0400 Subject: Korff & Komarek [This is the last post on any thread between you - unless you both have something new or _useful_ to add - ebk] From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:04:28 -0400 (EDT) To: updates@globalserve.net Subject: JohnValez and Other Peoples Arguments/Junk Mail >From: TotlResrch@aol.com >Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 16:09:13 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: JohnValez and Other Peoples Arguments/Junk Mail >Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 >To: updates@globalserve.net >From: Kal K. Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Other peoples arguements/junk mail >I thank you for your recent letter and in principle, I certainly >agree. >However, Mr. Valez, you should be aware that it was Ed >Komarek, not I, that >posted in his publication a blatant misrepresentation of my >views. >Furthermore, since Mr. Komarek made a point to distribute his >misrepresentation widely to dozens of people, I made a point >to do the same >in order to set the record straight and make sure my views >are accurately >portrayed since Mr. Komarek does not care to do so. There is >nothing wrong >with this and it is the most effective way at dealing with >people who do >this. >If Mr. Komarek had not done this deliberate deed, then I would >have kept the >eMail as it was, just between he and I. It was Komarek, >however, who took it >public and since he has made a point to misrepresent my >views, and then >widely disseminate his misrepresentation, I felt compelled to >set the record >straight. The public record is important. >Maybe you might wish to eMail Mr. Komarek and let him know >that if he >continues to deliberately misquote people, despite their best >efforts to set >him straight, that he is doing the UFO field a disservice. Once >again, I >sought only to correct the public record on this. "I AM NOT A CROOK" Richard Nixon "I AM NOT A DEBUNKER" Kal Korff Methinks Debunker Kal doth protest to much. For anybody that has been following closely the posts on Updates and other servers they know that in ORTK Bulletin 26 I gave Kal plenty of space in reply to my concerns and opinions. He was certianly much more vocal and imflamatory that I! I think Kal can't take what he dishes out! Now he even wants to wage a email campain against me wow! This is a man who claims to be a legitimate UFO investigator and researcher. Kal is all about politics not research and this is precisely the point I have been trying to make. In my opinion CSICOP and Kal are political animals trying to cloak their deceptions in researcher clothing. I think Kal own actions and antics on Udates have proven my case. The best, Ed Komarek (ORTK)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 13 Re: MSN UFO Webshow debunks LEFT AT EAST GATE From: "Diana Hopkins" <DDBH@msn.com> Date: Tue, 13 May 97 03:11:41 UT Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:54:31 -0400 Subject: Re: MSN UFO Webshow debunks LEFT AT EAST GATE >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto >Sent: Monday, May 12, 1997 6:23 PM >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: MSN UFO Webshow debunks LEFT AT EAST GATE >From: KRandle993@aol.com >Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:21:04 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: MSN UFO Webshow debunks LEFT AT EAST GATE >>Date: Mon, 12 May 97 02:22:54 UT >>From: "Diana Hopkins" <DDBH@msn.com> >>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: MSN UFO Webshow debunks LEFT AT EAST GATE >> Project: watchfire is a newsbased investigative show on UFOs. >> Salley Rayl of Omni's Project: Open Book is the host and head >> writer. Their new episode concerns the circumstances of the >> December 1980 sighting at Bentwaters AFB in England, written >> up in a book titled "Left at East Gate" by Larry Warren and >> well known ufo investigator Kevin Randles. >Boy, I hope their other investigative efforts are better than this one. >First, I have not written a book with Larry Warren. It was by Larry >Warren and Peter Robbins. Second, I wouldn't have written a book with >Larry Warren because I don't believe his tale. And third, my last name >is Randle, with no "S" on the end. >KRandle I apologize to Kevin Randle, et al for the horrible mistake is placing his name on that book - actually, the msn site makes no mention of the book at all - it only focuses on Halt's testimony of what happened. I hope that put Mr. Randle's mind at ease. I'm now going to go and back track to which website I had found your name attached to Warren's book - if I find it, I will certainly let you know! Apologies. Diana Hopkins
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 13 CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:00:14 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:33:42 -0400 Subject: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! Recently, Mr. Ed Komarek raised the issue of my relationship with CSICOP and Prometheus Books and asked me to "explain" it. This is a fair question, I suppose, when considering the absurd "political" climate and the emotional biases in the UFO community. In a sincere attempt to clarify this matter for the record, I am posting the following information: 1) Contrary to the opinions of what finally seems like a steadily dwindling number of "UFOlogists" (at least based on my eMail traffic and the tremendous amount of support I have received for my views), I am NOT a UFO debunker nor am I a skeptic. At the same time, however, I am not a "blind believer" as well. As I have stated repeatedly over the YEARS, I am simply a UFO researcher who takes each case on its' own individual merits and I form my conclusions accordingly. This said, (and hopefully for the LAST time) I do not care if there are those still out there like Mr. Komarek who cannot accept this simple concept and prefer to believe differently. 2) I am NOT a member of CSICOP, nor am I a member of any UFO group such as MUFON or CUFOS. Sadly, it has been my experience during my 24 years now in this field, that when you join one organization you are automatically "at war" with another. This is most unfortunate. Most of the world is NOT black and white, folks, but some shade of grey, if not several shades of different colors. For this reason, I prefer to stay as NEUTRAL as possible, and work with ALL sides of the UFO controversy in order to help separate the UFO "signal" (whatever it might be) from what certainly appears to be a virtually infinite amount of "noise," -- thanks in no small part to various UFlogists. 3) It was MY DECISION, and no one else's, to approach CSICOP and Prometheus Books to publish both my Meier expose (Spaceships of the Pleiades: The Billy Meier Story) and my new book on Roswell, (The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want You to Know.) I approached Prometheus Books, because I wanted to polarize an absurd issue that I feel HURTS the UFO field more than it helps it. This is the stupid MYTH that EVERY book published by Prometheus cannot be trusted, and that "all Prometheus does is publish anti-UFO books." Indeed, if I had only a penny for every time I have heard this claim over the years, I would have more money than Bill Gates does!! :-) The FACT is, Prometheus Books is a book publisher, and in a typical year only some 5-10 percent of their books (if even this) have even anything remotely to do with the "paranormal," and even LESS have anything to do with UFOs. To prove this, one need only look at their BOOK TITLE PRODUCT CATALOG to verify this SIMPLE fact! Prometheus Books is in the business of publishing books, just like any other book publishing company. One obvious example of this is when my Meier expose book was featured in their catalog for Summer, 1995. My book was the "#2" title for that season, second only to the famous actor Peter Ustinov's autobiography, which they also published!! So what does this tell you? Certainly NOT what UFO conspiracy hotheads like Ed Komarek (and others) would have you believe. 4) I also know that after I exposed the hoax claims of Billy Meier, I knew I would take on Roswell and maybe even Bob Lazaar. This was based on years of research on these issues and cases, with which I have yet to make public. Let us be HONEST here: during the past 10 years in the UFO field, loads of very spurious cases and patently unverifiable incidents have drawn MOST of the media attention, for better or worse. And with all these claims of "underground alien bases" and people claiming to "time-travel and meet Jesus Christ" and President Clinton meeting with aliens on a regular basis, the UFO field is often its' own worst enemy. And some of you then "wonder" aloud why many people don't take those "UFO nuts" seriously!! My Meier book is endorsed by BOTH the skeptics groups and the pro-UFO books such as MUFON and CUFOS. Indeed, it is so far, the ONLY UFO book to get UNIVERSAL ENDORSEMENTS from all sides -- except for all practical purposes from Billy Meier fanatics and believers, but this is to be expected. Even Stanton Friedman declared on his WEB site that my Meier expose book was probably the only Prometheus Book he'd ever endorse. The union of the pro-UFO community (most of it) and the skeptics over my Meier expose book (because of Prometheus being the publisher) is the crowning achievement of the approach I deliberately sought, which was to work with ALL sides of the UFO controversy. Recently, endorsements from many UFO "believers" and skeptics of course, have started to come in regarding my new Roswell book. This is appreciated. I would even be interested in working with people like Ed Komarek, and have stated as such, but first he needs to be grounded in REALITY with regard to my positions on things. Despite my best efforts to explain everything to him (and a small handful of others) he and they are still in denial of this reality. 5) Finally, Mr. Komarek thinks that he has made "hay" out of the fact that in a recent press release from TotalResearch it was mentioned that I am available for interviews by calling Chris Cramer at Prometheus Books. In reality, Mr. Komarek has done nothing but make a fool out of himself once again, and the TRUTH is far less "conspiratorial" than he would make it appear. In fact, there is no conspiracy here at all!! Mr. Komarek, because Prometheus is my current publisher, I often refer media inquiries through and to them. If Random House were my current publisher I would refer people to them. This is a normal, standard practice for any author who has any sort of level of national and international exposure and recognition such as I do. There is another side benefit in doing this, by referring people to Prometheus Books, there is a single, organized, focused point of contact, and it relieves me of the financial, managerial, and administrative burdens of having to pay for a fulltime manager, publicist, and other assorted staff which I USED to fund and had on my payroll in the past. Instead, these monies and resources can now be better channeled towards other things, such as furthering UFO research and various UFO-related initiatives which I shall announce in the near future. If you were my publisher, Mr. Komarek, I would even refer all inquiries to you, but you are not. In summation, the NAME of one's PUBLISHER is ultimately IRRELEVANT. Here's a good example: Marlow & Company have published Stanton Friedman's TOP SECRET/MAJIC. They are also publishing Hesemann and Mantle's "Beyond Gullibility," er, "Beyond Roswell" treatise. Hesemann and Mantle in their soon-to-be-published book, ENDORSE the alien autopsy case. On the other hand, Friedman has a chapter in his TOP SECRET/MAJIC book decrying it as anything BUT real. These three men share not only the SAME PUBLISHER, but even have the SAME LITERARY AGENT named Jack White -- not to be confused with "Jack Barnett," the supposed alien autopsy "cameraman"!! :-) By comparison, I have NO agent, and it is just myself and my media reputation and long history of being in the media for 20 YEARS now that speaks for itself and continues to draw attention. Some of you really need to do your homework on this more throughly. So, where are the chorus of "boos" from the Komarek's of this world protesting this Friedman/Hesemann/Mantle literary agent and book publishing incestuous troika? They don't exist because Friedman, Hesemann and Mantle's publisher is not the "dreaded" Prometheus Books. PLEASE, people, and ESPECIALLY Mr. Komarek, GET A CLUE!! If one takes the time to read the LAST CHAPTERS of BOTH my Meier expose book AND my new Roswell book, one will see the I am most definitely "pro-UFO" to use the term, although as I state in an upcoming magazine interview I prefer to think of it as "pro-science." Once again, I advocate the serious, scientific and objective study of UFO reports and I support full disclosure to the public of UFO-related data. Read my words FIRST and THEN if you wish to take issue with me then do so. I hope the above, long-winded explanation puts to rest and answers the "concerns" some of you might have. In short, they are without foundation. My dealings with Prometheus are strictly business -- I need publishers for my research as a way of getting the data out to the public for critical examination, and as book publishers Prometheus needs research to publish. Sounds pretty straightforward to me. If Prometheus Books were the epitome of "evil" like some of you make them out to be, then they would have tried to INFLUENCE my opinions and would NOT support me as one of their authors because of my position on the UFO subject and the fact that I had a sighting myself. The TRUTH however is that they have NEVER done this. And if they had ever tried, then I would have nothing to do with them. I am my OWN PERSON, and NO PUBLISHER or PERSON will ever dictate to me, my beliefs! I consider this non-issue and what has amounted to yet another delusional fantasy in the minds of a select few, especially Mr. Komarek, to be closed. Sincerely yours, Kal K. Korff -- Confuscious saying: "Don't ever tell UFO believers that Roswell did not involve the recovery of an alien spacecraft, or you will be labeled a debunker or a skeptic, especially if you are not one and your publisher just happens to be Prometheus Books. Nothing you say will ever convince these types." It is my hope in this one case, that Confuscious is WRONG! :-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 13 Re: MIB From: livesey@trump.net.au (Stuart Livesey) Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:34:57 GMT+1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:53:31 -0400 Subject: Re: MIB G'day from downunder, downunder, The other day I posted a query about the MIB phenomena and shortly after that found 93 messages in my box. Unfortunately, before I could read any I had a nasty crash that erased the lot so if any were from you guys I would really appreciate it if you would re-reply direct rather than cluttering up the list with duplicates. It would have made me feel good to be able to say that the crash happened in mysterious circumstances but it didn't - it was completely human (for that read me) error. Stuart
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 13 Re: 'Flying Saucers Invade Europe' From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 06:25:55 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:40:11 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Flying Saucers Invade Europe' As to my 'Flying Saucers Invade Europe', I got a reply on "alt.alien.visitors" from David Rudiak, whom some of you might know from his many erudite and informative contributions to various "alien" newsgroups and UFO UpDates. I sent some comments May 9, but my service provider has had some problems accessing newsgroups lately so the e-mail never arrived. Here it is a once again, and I would be very grateful if somebody could help distinguishing between facts and fiction. The opening lines are mine: Thanks for the comment which sheds some light on the alleged report to the Joint Chiefs of Staff. You are not right, however, concerning the date of the important document that you mention. I'll tell you why after your e-mail. Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) wrote: >I'll bring you the entire compilation in a short while, but here are a >few excerpts to show you what I mean. >The first is quite sensational, as mentioned, and confirms, by >quoting an at least nowadays unknown report which originated >in the highest layers of US Government, that UFOs are real, >"controlled in an intelligent manner and ... either piloted or >radio-controlled". This secret and probably totally forgotten >document was delivered from the U. S. State Department to the >Joint Chiefs of Staff on April 28, 1948, >It told of a secret report delivered on April 28, 1948 from the >U. S. State Department to the Joint Chiefs of Staff which stated in >part: >"From time to time, some saucer-like projectiles have displayed >movements that indicate they are controlled in an intelligent >manner and are either piloted or radio-controlled. The >acceleration of these objects is higher than present normal limits. >They are noiseless. With the aid of special instruments, their >diameters have been measured to be as large as 100 to 160 feet >in diameter." David Rudiak wrote: Timothy Good in "Above Top Secret" mentions a Secret Air Force MEMO dated April 27, 1948. It descibes how Dr. Joseph Kaplan, of the A.F. Scientific Advisory Board, visited Kirtland AFB (Albuquerque, New Mexico) Office of Special Investigations (OSI), AEC's Sandia Base (Albuquerque), and Los Alamos, under orders from Dr. Theodore von Karmen. Kaplan and astronomer Dr. Lincoln LaPaz interviewed security personnel about UFOs flying over sensitive AEC facilities. Kaplan reported to von Karman that he felt the incidents were of extreme importance to the national defense of the U.S. and should be scientifically investigated. The statements in the alleged April 28 report are substantially the same as those in the Twining and Schulgen memos of Sept. and Oct. 1947. Both Gen. Twining and Gen. Schulgen stated that the saucers were real, noiseless, under intelligent control, and displayed extreme accelerations. Schulgen also noted they were most commonly reported to be the size of a C-54 or Constellation type airplane, making them over 100 feet in size. It's not too much of a stretch to believe the alleged April 28 secret report to the Joint Chiefs is genuine. The reported contents certainly match up with what had been stated before in other documents. Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 14:10:19 GMT From: DRudiak@aol.com (David Rudiak) Subject: Re: "Flying Saucers Invade Europe" Message-ID: <5kq2ok$klb$1@agate.berkeley.edu> Stig Agermose wrote: In 'Beyond Top Secret' (the updated edition of 'Above Top secret') Good says: 'On 27 and 28 April 1949, Dr Joseph Kaplan, a member of the Air Force Scientific Advisory Board, visited...' (p. 323) and then gives the places you mention. The evidence comes from 'a previously secret Air Force Memorandum', in accordance with your e-mail. But on p. 325, at the end of Good's short piece, the memo is quoted and the accompanying note 17 (p. 566f) gives the title and the date: 'Memorandum (Secret) from Lieutenant Colonel Doyle Rees, USAF, District Commander, 17th District Office of Special Investigations, Kirtland AFB, Albuquerque, New Mexico, to the Director of Special Investigations, Office of the Inspector General USAF, Washington 25, DC, 12 May 1949.' It is possible, however, that the April 28 report from the State Department to the Joint Chiefs of Staff was made in connexion with Kaplan's visit, as he stated that the matter "was of extreme importance", and that he would submit his report to Dr von Karman immediately. In that case, on the last day of his visit, April 28, he might have telephoned or had a teletyped message sent to the State Department, which in turn, without delay, made the report to the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Good says (p.323f): 'The purpose of the visits, a previously secret Air force memorandum states, was to review the reports of investigations and the circumstances surrounding the 'unidentified aerial phenomena' that had been observed in the area, and to make recommendations as to the advisability of a scientific investigation into the occurrences. Drs Kaplan and LaPaz met with several security and investigation personnel at Los Alamos on 28 April, so that Kaplan could ascertain the nature of the UFO sightings that had been reported there by members of the AEC project and AEC security-service inspectors. He seems to have been impressed, and stated that he would immediately submit his report to Dr von Karman: 'Dr Kaplan expressed a great concern, as these occurrences relate to the National Defense of the United States. He advised that he felt that this was of extreme importance and should be investigated scientifically.(17)" Search for other documents from or mentioning: stig_agermose | drudiak
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 13 Re: UFO sighting, New York City From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:13:48 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:49:44 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO sighting, New York City >From: meccam@205.252.116.10 >Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 19:56:38 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO sighting, New York City >> Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 02:13:37 -0500 >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) >> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO sighting, New York City >> >John Velez wrote: >> Try standing underneath them as they buzz around doing tricks >> over your head! The closest I can come to describing it is a >> childlike state of empty headed wonder and elation. They don't >> frighten me. My feeling is that they are there to be photographed >> and they must get pretty frustrated up there wondering when the >> dummy is going to stop gawking and get the camera so they can >> get out of there! <G> >> You ain't kidding! Wait till they're over Toronto! Then we can sing >> Johnny's tune together! After a while we may end up with more singers >> than the Vienna Boys Choir! <G> Hee-Haw >> I have to make up a big sign for the aliens for next time with Phillip >> Klass' photo and address on it! If ever there was a white man in need >> of an alien rectal probe,...although I wouldn't want to see his keester >> get 'cored' like they do with livestock. I hope for the old guys sake >> that they don't get confused. <G> >> John Velez :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Melanie writes, >John - we'd like to see this footage too! You are a lucky duck, seeing >all that stuff! Did see some of the Arizona shots from Linda Howe's >video show, and they were indeed spectacular!!!! WOW! >Melanie -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hiya Melanie, hi All, In case you missed my earlier post, the video is being prepared for the web (as we speak) by Tommy King and Jason DeGraf of the OVNI Chapterhouse website. When it is posted, I'll let everyone know via Errols List, so watch for further informational posts from me. It shouldn't be long. John Velez * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 13 Re: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:44:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? > From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com > Date: 09 May 97 17:46:59 cst > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? > >Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 16:55:14 -0700 (PDT) > >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? > The debate between Jim Deardorff and myself on the Meier affair > continues: > >The latter is just your assumption. Upon treating Meier's supportive > >witnesses seriously, plus all his photo evidence that Korff couldn't > >refute, one finds that Meier was just relaying what he was told by his > >contactees [contactors]. If it all didn't happen, then you're right. > >If it did > >happen, then Meier was indeed selected by these aliens to be their prime > >contactee -- call him a Cosmic Emissary then if you wish. > Only if one believes Meier's story. I don't. I also don't accept > "supporting witnesses" as definitive proof that any of this really > happened. Well, consider a case like "Adrain" of Miami who Randy Winters championed, at least for awhile -- the claimed Pleiadean contactee supposedly dating back to 1974, a year before Meier's main contacts began. Randy is still maintaining Adrain's anonymity, so no one can interview him thoroughly and check him out for years and years like some investigators did Meier. And Adrain's supposed supportive witnesses are all anonymous, so that no one can check any of them out, even though what they supposedly saw was as spectacular as what Meier's supportive witnesses saw. But not a one of Adrain's supportive witnesses felt that what they saw was so important that the world should know about it even though it would likely cost them their jobs; but some two dozen of Meier's supportive witnesses gave Wendelle Stevens, the Elders et al. and Gary Kinder their names and/or written statements of what they had witnessed. So in a case like "Adrain," your position makes a lot of sense; I regard him as a hoax perpetrated by I don't know who. In the case of Meier, the witnesses stick to their guns to this day; they know what they saw. I've even interviewed three of them; they're sincere. One of the supportive witnesses, Hans Schutzbach, along with four other named persons, witnessed a spectacular UFO light show one particular night that Meier had told them Semjase had agreed to put on for them that night. He is also one of a half dozen persons, besides Meier, to have had a beamship sighting in the daytime. Schutzbach is one who later had a falling out with Meier because he didn't care for the content of the messages Meier had received and was promulgating to his group. But Schutzbach nevertheless insists Meier had his experiences that were real UFO experiences; he could hardly deny it later after having signed written statements in 1976 attesting to what they had seen, which Stevens reported in his 1982 book. Do you have any reason why you would believe an alleged UFO witness like Korff but disbelieve Schutzbach, Jacobus Bertschinger, Margret Flammer, Margarite Rufer and Amata Stetter? > Do you believe that Joseph Smith really was given enscribed > golden plates by the angel Moroni? He had "eyewitnesses" that verified > the existence of the plates (although most of them later hedged, saying > they saw them "spiritually," not literally). In short, supportive > eyewitnesses -- especially in the furtherance of a particular ideology -- > doesn't necessarily prove anything. I tend to believe the Joseph Smith case was just that -- a UFO contact. > Of course, I could be wrong, and Meier's story could be true just as he's > told it. But in my experience, such grandiose tales are the result of > either neuroses or scams. You wouldn't refute this observation, would > you? I note your experience, but it would seem that you haven't been exposed to many persons who tell it like it is. You seem to be saying that surely anyone who relates an experience of having been taken from their bed by aliens, for example, and whisked through the wall of their apartment up into a hovering UFO, is telling a grandiose tale. And if there were a few witnesses to the abduction who dared to come forth on it, it seems you would claim that their witnessing does not amount to anything. > If you suspect that everything Meier's aliens say is a lie, what does > that say about their motives regarding the 'Prime Directive,' etc.? We've been over this before, Vince. Recall, disinformation has no value to its propagator unless substantial amounts of truth are fed in also. In Meier's case, I suspect that the disinformation was in the minority and truth in the majority, back in 1975-76. So here you were setting up an extreme "everything." > > These types of contactee accounts are wholly inconsistent with the > > consistently inexplicable nature of the UFO phenomenon throughout > > history, worldwide. > >Your sentence would make more sense if you had used the word > >"consistent." Surely it's just as inexplicable in the Meier case how > >his aliens could render their craft invisible, or cause it to jump away > >from one place to another faster than the eye can follow, as in CE1 > >reports. > Nope, I don't think so. That kind of stuff is just technological. We'll > probably be able to do that kind of stuff in 100 years or so -- maybe > less. It's the motivation and methodology that you ascribe to them that I > find utterly inexplicable. Well, OK, so it's totally inexplicable to you that aliens would show ethical regard towards skeptics who are unable to cope with the UFO reality, while at the same time providing positive definite evidence that others need not ignore and that proves to them that the alien presence is real enough. The aliens must do one, or they must do the other, but they're not smart enough to do both, you say. I can't do any more than I already have to clue you in. Someone else can take over, if they wish! > And from what I'm reading, Kalliope is denying the entire scam now. Is she > lying now or was she lying then? Like I said, she wasn't lying then, there were other witnesses; her own children saw the beamship; Hans Schutzbach saw it, so did Hans Benz and Eva Bieri. If you have any information that says she now denies she saw the beamship, please let us know about it, if you will. I have a video tape that records her witnessing to it, including the portholes around the cupola, plus what two of her children saw. > Oddly, one wouldn't expect such > bitterness from a woman so blessed to have been married to The Most > Special Human On Earth. Really, Vince. Next you'll be saying that Meier must cause some persons to wish to assassinate him or crucify him on a cross, as occurred to a Special Human a while back. Jim Search for other documents from or mentioning: deardorj |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 13 Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light) From: HONEYBE100@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 00:50:49 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:48:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light) >Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:32:06 -0500 (CDT) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Yellowrose <yelorose@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Welcoming Linda (Balls of Light) Amy wrote: >Oh, my, Linda, I can't answer all your questions! ;p There are >many theories but no one really knows what all these things are. Sorry I haven't been around lately. I've been sick in bed with a cold, fever, etc. I understand that no one has answers. I'm just interested in the confirmation of those who have experienced the same thing. I'm certainly not alone, am I? Although it was 17 years ago that I've experienced the "ball of light" thing, I was always afraid that it would happen again. This ball of light, did much more than show itself: 1. I felt the hot breath of someone say [in a harsh voice] "HI," in my ear. 2. Then I saw an orange flash of light. 3. It looked similar to a comet only because of its tail. It raced across the ceiling. 4. The whole side of my face and the ear, was sunburned. 5. My husband saw my face glow in the dark. Are these things supposed to talk too? No, I didn't see little people, or anything like that, but I want to thank you for all your help. I'll suppose that my curiousity has been satisfied. Thanks again, Linda Cortile 2.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 13 'UFOS and RODS' currently appearing over Roswewll From: paa3765@dpsc.dla.mil (Steve Adams) Date: Tue, 13 May 97 09:09:31 est Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:55:16 -0400 Subject: 'UFOS and RODS' currently appearing over Roswewll Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:33:46 -0400 To: Errol Bruce-Knapp <updates@globalserve.net> From: Patricia Mason <pmason@ee.net> Subject: UFOS and RODS currently appearing over Roswell Hello Everyone, I found a very interesting web site about rod-shaped UFOs. Are they living beings? Jose Escamilla has over 500 hours of video of these mysterious objects. Pat Mason ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >From the web site of Jose Escamilla, Roswell Rods http://www.roswellrods.com/pre.html Welcome to the Roswell Rods Web site. For those of you that haven't heard about the RODS phenomena, you are about to find out what they are and what we are doing currently to analyze and gather more data about the phenomena. Our aim here is to inform and bring you up to speed on the phenomena, along with other news about the UFOS and RODS currently appearing over Roswell and Midway, New Mexico and other locations we are being made aware of. You will find out the difference between, insects, birds, jet aircraft and Rods and what it took to make certain we were not mis-filming anything, prior to releasing our findings to the public. All in all, this is a fun page for all of you to enjoy. I don't want anyone out there to think I am forcing you to believe or dis-believe. Your opinions and beliefs are entirely yours. I am only presenting the evidence as we are experiencing it and want to share it with you. I welcome all inquiries and questions pertaining to anything you find here at the site, and urge you to write us at:rods@rmi.net Enjoy Jose and Karen Escamilla WHAT ARE RODS? Rods are cylindrical or cigar shaped objects that have been discovered appearing in the skies. The objects are not like the typical "cigar" shaped UFOS that have been reported throughout history. The following are characteristics of Rods gathered over the past three years of our videotaped evidence and research: They are from four inches to a hundred,(or more), feet in length. Some are thin like spears. Some Rods have what appear to be "appendages" along their torsos resembling Centipedes. They travel at extremely high velocities barely visible with the naked eye. They do exhibit some form of intelligence. They are appearing everywhere. They don't appear to be mechanical or made of metal. They appear to be alive! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ********************************************** ********************************************** * UNUSUAL RESEARCH * * * * http://users1.ee.net/pmason/index.html * ********************************************** **********************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 13 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: Jeroen Wierda <mj_1@thepentagon.com> Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:29:15 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 21:28:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:50:06 +0200 (MET DST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 16:10:17 +0200 >From: Jeroen Wierda <mj_1@thepentagon.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >[JW] I must disagree with that. The subject can be influenced in any >way that the therapist likes. The subject is defensless, and can be >molded by the therapist in "remembering" situations that never really >happened. The therapist can even make subjects "remember" very emotional >situations that never actually happened. This has been proven and is on >tape. If you followed this thread to the start, what the original contributor meant was that hypnosis is unreliable even when the therapist is NOT influencing the therapist. This is only so in details without emotional value. [JW] Hypnosis is unreliable, until real scientific proof exists that can prove otherwise. Emotions are irrelevant in this. It's similar to lie detectors... >[JW] I can name a few who can clearly be seen and heard as influencing >the subjects. Like Dr. John Mack, and Budd Hopkins. It is on tape that >they ask their questions in such a way that the subject MUST remember. What tape? [JW] I have several VHS tapes from documentaries where one can clearly see and hear that Therapists influence their targets. >The "therapists" keep asking for more information, and IMO that clouds >the subconsious minds of the subjects. Of course the therapists keep asking for more information, what else should they do. [JW] You can see and hear from the tapes that they are influencing the subjects with questions like. "What did the being look like? Grey or green?" Now is that a leading question or not? "You were on the table, then what happened? You can remember more.... your body remembers... ", etc..etc..etc. How can one's body remember if your mind doesn't??? But it only clouds the mind if the questions are leading. There is a distinct difference between leading and non-leading questions that debunkers are conveniently forget or are unaware of. [JW] You can only call someone a debunker if you have absolute proof. Is there anyone out there who has absolute proof that UFOs are piloted by alien beings (without mentioning Billy Meier)? >The mind tries to form a picture >of that event that can nicely fit with what the therapist wants. Again, only if the therapist is leading. Where is proof of this? [JW] Again... proof is on tape, I have some. You can also buy tapes from stores, and view them. Look objective, and see what happens. >In many hypnotic sessions >the therapist is trying (unknowingly?) to get the classic abduction >story because he/she knows what that looks like. Again, examples [JW] Discovery channel had a very interesting Documentary a few weeks ago where you can see Dr. John Mack sending a full package of UFO related material to a subject. There was no way to appear on a counseling meeting without being "prepared"...! >It is something like >getting hypnosis to "remember" your undoubtly many past lives. Which can be true as well. [JW] If that is true, then there are hundreds of people out there who were Cleopatra, or any other historical significant person! >There is many proof out there that can clearly show you that false >memories can be planted inside a subject while undergoing hypnotic >regression. If you have read my previous posting carefully I said that this only happens when the therapist is influencing the subject. I know that people like Dr. Robert Baker and Dr. Elizabeth Loftus have demonstrated that implanting memories is possible. They have shown this in documentaries like "Kidnapped by UFOs", that was aired in the USA by ABC, I believe. There they deliberately try to influence the subject from the start and go to great lengths to achieve this. [JW] How about the classic story "Lost in a super mall"? Over several sessions a therapist lets a subject remember that she has been lost in a supermall for a few hours, until an elder lady escorts her back. Her parents testified that she has never ever been lost in a mall before. And yet, after several sessions, she has complete memories of her traumatic (emotional) experience. But it is all irrelevant toying around with pet theories because it is not what abduction therapists are doing. They have shown this in the same documentaries. So unless you provide proof of the opposite I cannot take these theories seriously. You must remember that Baker and Loftus and in the Netherlands Prof.dr. Crombagh have developed these theories in a different context, mainly child abuse, and that their theories were applied to alien abductions only after the media asked them their opinion on that subject. Apparently, they haven't studied this subject as carefully as child abuse. [JW] I do not know those people, unfortunately. So I cannot comment on them. All this despite the fact that there are multiple witness abduction cases. See http://www.ufoic.com/faq, "What is the best evidence for abductions?". [JW] Ok... you refer to people who remember seeing eachother in a hypnotic regression, and yet (claim to) have not seen/ met before? I agree that that is very impressing to say the least. And I am not skeptic at all. I always keep an open mind about these subjects. I will, however not be absolute certain that these things are true, unless I get real (non photographic/ tape/ audio) evidence. [JW] There is much out there that we don't know, like Farseeing, Telekynesis, Mindreading, Healing by Psychic powers, etc. We still have not a clue as to what causes it. Brain-waves perhaps?, Some "new" type of radiation? Who knows? Jeroen Wierda President of Picard UFO Research International URL to PUFORI: http://www.pufori.org/ If I do not reply to mail addressed to me within 3 days, plz resend it. Postal address: Jeroen Wierda, PO Box 352, 5201 AJ 's-Hertogenbosch, the Netherlands
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 13 Just a comment on Marcel's Military Records From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:25:18 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 21:24:18 -0400 Subject: Just a comment on Marcel's Military Records A Small Journey to seek the Truth . . . Jesse Marcel's Military Records Perhaps it's time for a reality check . . . or perhaps not, depending on your point of view. We have become witness to a continuing debate on the veracity of Jesse Marcel, Sr., as defined by analysis of his military record and statements that he allegedly made. I will leave it to those with more ammunition to carry on this discussion. But, I will admit that it reminds me of the old rule that if you can't discredit the message, then discredit the messenger. When I first became aware or the allegations that have been made, I decided to try and follow this up on my own and obtain a copy of Marcel's records under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). On January 21, 1997 I submitted an FOIA request to the Headquarters Air Force Personnel Center, Randolph Air Force Base, which they acknowledged. On February 12th I received a reply that was somewhat surprising: "The Air Force Worldwide Locator does not maintain records, but was able to identify Colonel Marcel on a listing indicating that his records were burned in the fire at the National Personnel Records Center (MPRC) in St. Louis in 1973. However, sometimes the MPRC is able to provide information from alternate record sources on an individual whose military personnel record was believed to be destroyed in that 1973 fire. Your request is being forwarded to the National Personnel Records Center/Air Force Reference, 9700 Page Avenue, St. Louis Missouri 63132-5100 for their appropriate action. They will reply directly to you." If true, that would mean that those quoting from Marcel's official record must have obtained it prior to the fire, and somehow that doesn't seem too likely. While the letter seemed somewhat ominous, I knew from experience with the NPRC and other veteran agencies that records were often lost in the system or simply on loan to another department. But it raises the question of where all these 200 page "copies" of Marcel's official record came from. If they're copies, and I doubt that any of them are original documents, then it is quite likely that they aren't identical. It would be quite interesting to obtain complete sets of each for comparison. But I would be hesitant in accepting arguments that were based solely on interpretation of what appears most likely to be an incomplete record. Kevin Randle has pointed out that many of the records are flawed, and that further complicates the question as to their completeness. On April 17, 1997 I received a form response from the National Personnel Records Center stating that: "On February 12, 1997 this Center received your request under the Freedom of Information Act. We find that the pertinent record is not available as it has not yet been transferred to this Center / has been loaned to the originating agency." In addition, I was informed that "A response to the portion of your request about which there is no question of releasability is enclosed." Attached to this form letter was a single sheet, filled out by hand. It outlined very basic information, and was by no means complete. It did show the record of a decorated veteran of the Pacific Theater during World War II, but it boiled his entire military career into about 50 written words, so I wouldn't call it anything more than interesting. Until (or Unless) the NPRC is able to locate Marcel's records, or it simply resurfaces at Randolph Air Force Base, there is no way to tell what Marcel's official record contains. Without an official record to back up the "copies" that have been circulating among researchers, we are left with documents that are unverified. Unfortunately, it would appear that the system may be designed to always leave open the question of whether or not the record, as compiled, is complete. If the records were actually destroyed in the 1973 fire, that would leave a number of questions as to where the circulating "copies" came from. Even if accurate, they may only paint a partial picture of his career and conclusions would be flawed as a result. For all the noise and debate, I suspect that we will all find out positions determined as much by our preconceived notions as by the "rational" arguements we have seen on the "net" on this issue. At least that's my opinion as another passenger on this bus. ================= For those who would like to see the documents quoted above, they are linked to a WEB page, which will repeat the above information with links to the scanned documents. That URL is: http://www.konsulting.com/steve/marcel.htm This page is not referenced from any other page. ==================
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 14 Skywatch for NYC area From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:02:34 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:11:14 -0400 Subject: Skywatch for NYC area Hi Errol, hi All, I've gotten some responses to my 'sighting' post from folks in the NY metropolitan area. It gave me an idea. I'd like to get some folks together for a coordinated skywatch lasting over the summer (and possibly longer!) You will need; a videocam in good working order, a camera, and a pair of binocs or opera glasses. I have enough video on hand from all over the world to help you learn what to look for, their unique flight characteristics, and how to tell the difference between the 'unknowns' and normally occuring air traffic. The only other thing you'll need is some time that you can commit to watching the NY skies over the summer! A network where several individuals can be notified of a 'sighting' will allow us to track them in their flight paths,(under the right conditions) triangulate the objects so that measurements can later be made for size and distance, and allow for the recording of these objects by several individuals from various vantage points. It's an opportunity to help document what may be the most significant event in human history. We'll also end up with some damned interesting video to boot! If you live in the NYC area, and have the equipment necessary, contact me privately at my e-mail add. jvif@spacelab.net These 'things' are up there,...all we have to do is (spend some time) looking up in their direction and you'll see em. Hope to hear from a few of you. John Velez * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 14 Rutkowski & The Flood of The Century From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:47:55 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:47:55 -0400 Subject: Rutkowski & The Flood of The Century There's been much interest in private E-mail about the floods around the Red River Valley, Winnepeg and Chris Rutkowski. So to answer questions and bring the List up to date here are some excerpts from the latest exchanges between Chris and I. The '>' are me to Chris..... ____________________________ > We weren't sure which part of the city you > live in and couldn't keep track of where the > water was going. We just kept our fingers, eyes, > ears and noses crossed for you. And other various body parts that I don't even want to think about ... We live in St. Norbert, which did make the news because of evacuations. Water was over the street in places, and some basements got it. The tiny creek in the glade 100 feet from our home had created a lake where the meadow should have been. If it weren't for the various dikes and floodway, they produced a map which showed which low-lying areas would have been flooded. Basically, it was 80% of Winnipeg, similar to Grand Forks (or what's left of it). It appears that Manitoba will become the Zuider Zee of Canada, and I can see some healthier respect for nature from now on. > >The UFO files were saved, more or less, although mixed up a bit during > >frenzied packing. But, we're back and dry and I *suppose* ready to be > >resubscribed. :) > Damn! That must have been a nightmare. Was the > freakout and jumble the worst? "You have 24 hours to save everything. Get out." I'd call it numbed, controlled panic. The worst was living all in one room, out of a few suitcases with two small (and very bored) children. Of course, now that we're back, it's a matter of reassembling the contents of the house. Suffice to say that we are awash in a sea of boxes - and the UFO books and files aren't back yet. :) __________________________________________________ For those of you who are not familiar with Chris, he has a massive number of UFO related books and periodicals along with his own and inherited UFO Files. All of which were organised and set up in his basement. To quote from an earlier message of Chris': Seekers (Brian and Dave) came all the way in to Winnipeg to help us clear out the basement, but now that we may get even *worse*, they are coming back (a 2-hour drive each way!) tomorrow with a truck to take the UFO book collection and UFO files all to their higher ground. Chris is basically back on-line now, 'towelled-off' and bidding farewell to three-quarters of the 8,000 Canadian soldiers who helped save Winnepeg from inundation. Welcome Back Chris, ebk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 14 Ed Komarek's Final Post To Kal Korf From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:25:30 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:50:13 -0400 Subject: Ed Komarek's Final Post To Kal Korf I see that our esteemed moderator Errol has grow weary of our threads and feels that enough has been said between us. I agree, so this will by my last post to you unless something realy extraordinary comes up. I think Errol is doing a great service to all of us by letting you put yourself on the public record. Now any researcher can come along and go through the UFOupdates archive to do research on you, your motives and your agenda. And on me for that matter too. I think it will be obvious to most, that you are a debunker in believer clothes as Mr. Rudiak suggests. I hope now you will answer Mr. Rudiaks post: Subject: Reality Check Requested -- Will Korff show his cards? I think Mr. Rudiak can do a much better job of exposing your motives, agenda, debunker tactics etc. than I. In my opinion I think most serious investigators of the UFO phenomena can now see past your attacks on my character as simply attempts to intimidate and distract from the fact that indeed you are a debunker and involve yourself in debunker tactics and deceptions. Anyone can see that your tears are but crocodile tears. I have yet to say anything about you maligning my character through all this. Its interesting that those with the least credibility must be forever defending their credibility and making attacks on the credibility of others. Those that have taken the time to know me know I am honest and to the point. I have every right to my opinions and to express those opinions in a public forum. In your past several posts you seem to indicate that the CSICOP organization is a valid organization promoting honest scientific thought. Perhaps you could enlighten me further as to your views on this organization. I and many others see nothing scientific about CSCIOP. Their journal the Skeptical Inquirer is not a refereed scientific journal but a blantant biased journal that only promotes the skeptical side of the UFO issue. They claim to be a organization of reason yet they hardly ever promote a objective and fair look at the UFO issue. Perhaps for once you will quit blowing smoke and answer this question clearly and effectively. Is The Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal a scientific organazation as it claims in its name? Does CSCIOP promote truely scientific investigations into Claims of the Paranormal? Or is its name a lie just as is its message of reason. Thank you very much, Kal its been a pleasure getting to know you. The best, Ed Komarek Richard Nixon, "I am not a crook" Kal Korff, "I am not a debunker"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 14 Re: Roswell: Historical Facts (Part 1) From: DRudiak@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:42:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Roswell: Historical Facts (Part 1) >From: legion@werple.net.au [John Stepkowski] >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Roswell: Historical Facts >To: updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto) >Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 08:30:53 +1000 (EST) >Hi Vince; >Regarding; > > From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com > > We can argue the merits of particular Roswell witnesses, but there > > is one inescapable historical fact that can't be denied. The > > commander of the Roswell Army Air Field officially announced that > > the U.S. Army Air Force had recovered a "flying disk." >There is a lot of doubt about this. >Walter Haut, who according to Randle/Schmitt et al. wrote this >release, has stated many times that Col. Blanchard told him to issue >it. In an article for the August/September 1992 issue of _Air & >Space/Smithsonian_ magazine, Frank Kuznik wrote: > Before my trip to Wright-Patterson, I tracked down Walter > Haut, the retired base public information officer who wrote the > infamous press release, and asked him if he ever actually saw the > wreckage. "No, and I feel like an idiot every time somebody asks > me that," he said ruefully. "I got a call from the base > commander, who basically dictated what was in the press release." >And yet the "flying disk" release states that: "The _Intelligence_ >office of the 509th Bombardment group ... announced that the field >had come into possession of a flying saucer. According to information >released by the department _over the authority of Maj. J.A. Marcel, >intelligence officer_, the disk was recovered.... The _intelligence >office_ stated that no details...etc.." This WAS NOT the original press release. It's how the Roswell Daily Record reported the story on the afternoon of July 8 (And Marcel was gone by this time to Fort Worth). But the press release as printed in other papers went: "The many rumors regarding the flying discs became reality yesterday when the intelligence office of the 509th (atomic) Bomb Group at the 8th Air Force, Roswell Army Air Field, was fortunate enough to gain possession of a disc through the cooperaion of one of the local ranchers and the sheriff's office of Chaves County." "The flying object landed on a ranch near Roswell some time last week. Not having phone facilities, the rancher stored the disc until such time as he was able to contact the sheriff's office, who in turn notified Major Jesse A. Marcel, of the 509th Bomb Group intelligence office. "Action was immediately taken and the disc was picked up at the rancher's home. It was inspected at the Roswell Army Air Field and subsequently loaned by Major Marcel to higher headquarters." Please note that there is NOTHING here about the disc being released "over the authority of Maj. J. A. Marcel." NOR did it say that the intelligence office announced it. That was how the Daily Record reported it, not how the orignal press release read. Marcel had no such authority in any case. The authority resided with the base commander, Col. Blanchard. If Marcel HAD exceeded his authority he would have been in serious trouble. There would have been a reprimand at the very least in his record. He may even have been court martialed. Blanchard would surely have noted something about insubordination in his subsequent evaluations of Marcel. But there is no such thing in Marcel's record at all: no demerits, no reprimands, no disciplinary actions, etc. Instead Blanchard noted how well Marcel carried out and obeyed orders from higher command and his extreme loyalty. There is no indication anywhere in Marcel's records that he ever jumped over the heads of his commanders, yet that is the contention in many of these silly skeptical theories. >In the _OMNI_ article, "The Truth About Roswell", a copy of which can >be found at: http://www.omnimag.com/o07jul/ros_truth.html, Dava Sobel >questioned Walter Haut about this point and more confusion arises: > "When Blanchard talked to you about what to say, did he use the > words 'flying saucer?"' I asked. "Did he seem to be frightened?" > When I pressed Haut about the authorship of the release, he > answered frankly: "I cannot honestly remember whether I wrote it, > whether he had given me the information and told me `This is what I > want in it.' It was not that big a production at that time, in my > mind." >If Haut was ordered to announce this astonishing discovery to the >world by Col. Blanchard, why do all roads lead to Maj. J. A. Marcel >of the Intelligence office? This is utter nonsense. Please note again that Marcel would have been guilty of insubordination for doing this and would certainly been severely punished after the following press feeding frenzy that went clear to the Pentagon. Others have accused Haut of writing the press release on his own (he was accused of this in the 1947 press, e.g.), but, once again, there is no indication that Haut was disciplined in any way. There are OTHER witnesses besides Haut as to the origins of the press release, and they pretty clearly lay it at the feet of Blanchard. Haut has also been quoted theorizing that Blanchard himself was just following orders, and that both he and Blanchard may have been "set up." All along, however, Haut has been clear that the information for the press release came from Blanchard's office, whether it was dictated by phone or already written out is a side issue. Frank Joyce, e.g., remembers Haut hand delivering the press release to him at radio station KGFL. Joyce says he told Haut that he shouldn't send out the release because there were procedural errors in it. Haut was making statements in the name of higher headquarters without permission to do so. Haut, however, told him that Blanchard told him to release it. Joyce said he also later called Haut at the base and again recommended that they shouldn't release a story about having a flying saucer or flying disc. Haut again said he had the OK from Blanchard. Art McQuiddy, editor of the Roswell Morning Dispatch, said that 3 or 4 months later, Blanchard, a good friend of his, reluctantly admitted to authorizing the press release. McQuiddy says Blanchard also told him, "The stuff I saw, I've never seen anyplace else in my life." (McQuiddy also recalled getting a call from the base shortly after the press release advising him of the "error" and saying the wreckage was actually the remains of a radiosonde balloon. The weather balloon cover story was first put out within an hour of the press release going out over the wire. Many people don't realize this, and think it originated with Ramey several hours later.) Similarly, Maj. Gen. Woodrow Swancutt, another good friend of Blanchard's, said that Blanchard told them his men had retrieved something very unusual and significant. Swancutt, who in July 1947 was assistant Roswell operations officer, said Blanchard "was convinced he had something very important at first." Blanchard's two wives also confirmed that Blanchard had seen the debris, that it was highly unusual, and that it wasn't from a balloon. Anne Blanchard, e.g., in 1979 said that her husband knew the debris wasn't from a balloon and not made by us. At first he thought it might be Russian because of the strange symbols on it; later he realized it wasn't Russian either. The press release was obviously authorized, perhaps even written or dictated by Blanchard. The real question is why. > And just who decided to describe the >debris as coming from a "flying disk" when Marcel never saw anything >remotely disk-shaped? It's called logic. Disk shaped objects of unknown origin are being reported flying at high speeds all over the country. Then Marcel and Blanchard saw anomalous debris which doesn't seem like it could be made by us. They conclude the debris probably comes from a crashed disc. Some of these high-speed saucer reports came from New Mexico within the previous week, including from military scientists at White Sands. As intelligence officer, Marcel may have been privy to such information. One CIC/OSI agent located by Karl Pflock, Maj. William O'Brien, knew Sgt. Jack Williams, the third CIC agent serving on Marcel's staff with Rickett and Cavitt. When the C/O, Maj. John Womack, who may have served with Williams at Roswell, heard Williams talking about Roswell, he "chewed him out" and Williams never spoke about it again. However, Womack did tell O'Brien that there was considerable CIC activity in July 1947 at Roswell, and that he and other agents had been posted to watch the skies with binoculars for an extended period. Once again, such stories aren't just the fantasy of Jesse Marcel. In a phone interview with Leonard Stringfield, Marcel also said that he and Cavitt inspected a large, intact chunk of debris about 10 feet across that Brazel had hauled into a shed with his tractor. If this was the case, then the debris had to have come from a larger craft of some sort. Johnny McBoyle of Roswell radio station KSWS also allegedly visited the crash site, probably on July 8. In a story told primarily by teletype operator Lydia Sleppy, McBoyle also reported that Brazel had hauled a large piece which looked like a "crumpled dishpan" into a cattle shelter. Finally, Marcel noted that the debris was scattered in an elongated path and thinned out, like something traveling at high speed in the air had exploded and the pieces fluttered down. He also remembered that Brazel mentioned something about hearing an explosion. >Contrary to established Roswell lore, Haut did not know how the >release came to be written. If anyone has any ideas about this >I'd appreciate hearing them. Haut doesn't clearly remember if it was dictated to him over the phone by Blanchard or whether he picked it up prewritten at Blanchard's office, but he's been pretty clear it came from Blanchard and was authorized by him. Other witnesses back up this contention. > > Two points should be considered about this historic fact: > > 1. Using a sensational "RAAF captures flying disk" press release > > as a cover story for some other incident would attract more > > attention to the incident than for the AAF to simply say nothing > > at all. >Which is precisely what happened. Phones into Roswell and the Air >Corps in Washington were deluged with callers from all over the world. >It's difficult to comprehend the "flying saucer" Zeitgeist now, but >after the Arnold sighting on June 24th, there wasn't a day when >"flying disk/disc" stories weren't making front page news. Not really true. My collection of newspaper stories indicates that most papers didn't begin to pick up reporting on the flying discs until around July 5 & 6. One of the most widely reported incidents was that of a United Airlilne crew over Idaho which had a very similar sighting to Kenneth Arnolds in the late evening of July 4. Like Arnold's sighting, these were large objects capable of moving very fast (Arnold calculated 1200+ mph.) With stories like these, if you find lots of pieces of highly anomalous debris that suddenly appears out in the middle of the desert scattered along a long, linear trajectory (as described by Marcel and Brazel), and the finder (Brazel) tells you he heard a loud explosion, you might justifiably conclude it could have come from an exploded craft traveling at high speed. That was Marcel's conclusion. > What hasn't been explored, however, is that nobody knew what a "flying >disc" or "saucer" was. >Newspapers of the time used "flying saucers" as a generic term for all >unidentified object reports. Jan Aldrich first pointed this out some >time ago, and reading newspaper accounts from the 1947 wave verifies >this. Whether the reports were of flaming objects, objects with wings >glistening in the sun, discs, "snowballs", cigar shapes, or even >high-altitude contrails, inevitably the newspapers headlined them as >the latest "saucer" or "disc" sightings. Few reporters bothered to >contemplate the wider implications of unknown objects flitting about >the sky. The exciting "Men from Mars" angle was played up by some >newspapers, but the majority view was that the reports themselves were >sufficiently newsworthy not to need any in-depth analysis. Reporters >speculated that "saucers" were weather balloons, secret military >projects, "sky phantoms", "floaters" in the eyes of the witnesses and, >not surprisingly, that people were most likely to see "saucers" when >they were "in their cups." Pretty much true. Except for the usual hoax, hysteria, and mistaken identity theories were the belief that they might be some new secret weapon, and to a lesser extent that they weren't human in origin. One such story by nationally syndicated columnist Walter Winchell was carried on July 8, and reported on similar sightings dating from over the last 150 years, collected by R. DeWitt Miller, author of "Forbidden Mysteries." Miller concluded the modern reports were caused by either 1) Secret military devices, 2) Interplanetary craft, or 3) Interdimensional beings. Sound familiar? >If someone told you in 1947 that they'd recovered a "flying disk", >hardly anyone - if anyone at all - would've immediately assumed you'd >found a "space ship". But based on all the newspaper reports, boy, >would they have been interested! > >Nobody in their right mind would have used a "flying disk" cover >story during the Arnold wave of 1947 and not expect to get swamped >by reporters And that's the big mystery of the press release. One theory advanced by Haut is that Blanchard was rather unusual in that he really believed in good public relations and keeping the locals informed of base happenings. The other theory by Haut is that Blanchard was "set up" by those higher in the chain of command. He wasn't disciplined afterwards because he was just following orders. Similarly Haut and Marcel were following orders and never disciplined for anything that they did. A third, similar theory, advanced by Gen. Arthur Exon, among others (e.g. Kevin Randle), is that it was a very clever cover story orchestrated from above, and Blanchard and unspecified others at Roswell were involved in it from the beginning. The whole point was to stir up interest and then have the thing quickly debunked and ridiculed. As the papers the next day reported, both the Army and Navy were making a concerted effort to stop all the flying saucer reports. This included staging launches of weather balloons with radar reflectors on July 9 (including at Alamogordo), and using them to explain ALL flying saucer reports. My personal opinion is that Blanchard initially acted alone, since there seemed to be genuine surprise at first on the part of the high brass. On the other hand, it didn't take too long for the damage control to begin. The weather balloon cover story was already being put out to the press within one hour of the initial press release. Gen. Dubose and Marcel both said that it was Ramey, or his staff, who quickly dreamed it up to get the press off Ramey's back. The debunking was so successful, they seemed to expand upon it the following day by staging all the weather balloon launches to suppress public interest in the flying discs. This is just my opinion. It's still a puzzlement to me exactly what happened. > > 2. If the "flying disk" press release was an act of collosal > > stupidity based on simple misidentification of any kind of > > balloon wreckage, Col. Blanchard's distinguished career would > > have effectively been over from that point on. >A few points here. >Just for the sake of argument, let's suppose that what Marcel found >really was part of "Project Mogul/Whatever". RAAF wouldn't have >known anything about it - TOP SECRET project, special decoder ring, >show me the secret handshake and all that - so that gets everybody off >the hook. Again I consider this theory to be utter rubbish for several reason. First of all, nobody needed to know anything about Mogul construction details or its purpose. What counted for identification of a balloon crash were materials, and there was nothing mysterious about the Mogul materials at all. The Mogul balloons were neoprene rubber weather balloons. The radar reflectors were made primarily of balsa wood and aluminum foil and maybe paper. I've been familiar with all these materials since about the age of 6. The newspapers in previous days and the following days stated that radar reflector targets were routinely used by EVERY military base in the country for meteorological purposes. Yet we're supposed to believe that these hot shot Air Force guys at Roswell had never seen a weather balloon or a radar target, and were also totally unfamiliar with rubber, aluminum foil, balsa wood, etc., and therefore ascribed all sorts of fantastic properties to these completely ordinary materials. (Marcel, BTW, had taken a Radar Intelligence course, which included about 120 hours of training.) I also find it hard to believe that NOBODY at Roswell knew anything about Mogul. The FAA had already been informed of the Project (without being told, of course, anything about its purpose) since the large balloons obviously represented a potential aviation hazard. Yet we're supposed to believe that the Air Force neglected to inform one of their own, including their nearby and one and only atomic bomber base. Both base security and aviation safety requirements would have demanded that Roswell be told of when these launches took place, and kept informed of the trajectories of the balloons. One of these balloons sailed almost directly over Roswell on June 5 (the day after the supposed Roswell incident culprit), yet we're supposed to believe Roswell base knew nothing of it. I would think that at the very least, the base commander (Blanchard) and maybe the senior radar officer would have been briefed on the matter. They had to know of potential aviation hazards to their pilots and intrusions into their air space. >Let's also remember that at this stage nobody was talking about >interplanetary space ships. Not true. This certainly was in the newspapers, though not to any great extent. And secretly, behind the public eye, various factions of the intelligence community took the reports VERY seriously. Remember, Gen. Schulgen's Air Intelligence Staff started a secret investigation into the best cases the very next day, aided by the FBI. This included the Kenneth Arnold sighting (which was publicly dismissed as a mirage) and the United Airlines sighting. When Gen. Twining was reached by the Portland Oregonian on July 7, he told them that the flying discs were not some secret military craft, people have evidently seen something, and it was being investigated. AAF laboratories at Wright Field confirmed Twining's statements. Of course, a few months down the line, Twining wrote his famous memo, saying it was the considered opinion of his command that the flying discs were real, metallic craft under intelligent control. Wind-tunnel testing of disc models was also underway at Wright Field. Behind the scenes, the flying saucers were treated as VERY real. > "Flying saucers" were being explained as >everything from balloons to who-knows-what. If Marcel had come into >Blanchard's office and said he'd found a "flying disc", no doubt >Blanchard would have been pleased that at last the USAAF would be able >to discover the true nature of these things. But, and this is a big >BUT, if Marcel had said - "Look at this stuff, it's incredible! You >can't break it, bend it, cut it or burn it. And look at these weird >markings. What the hell are they?" - would Blanchard have approved >the "flying disc" announcement to be released? Apparently yes, that's exactly what he did. And he didn't just do it on the say-so of Marcel. It's pretty clear from the testimony of various people, including Haut and Blanchard's wives, that Blanchard had personally examined the debris and was puzzled by it. Remember McQuiddy's comment? Blanchard's words were to the effect that, "The stuff I saw, I've never seen anyplace else in my life." >If Blanchard had handled the debris and confirmed these extraordinary >properties, wouldn't he have phoned "higher headquarters" and awaited >instructions first? You didn't get to be the commander of the world's >only atomic-ready Air Base if you weren't a team player who followed >orders. Again, that's what happened. According to Gen. Dubose, then Ramey's right-hand man in Fort Worth, higher command WAS contacted early on, apparently the same day Mac Brazel sauntered into town on July 6. The debris samples he brought were then ordered to Washington by Gen. McMullen, and then forwarded to Wright Field for analysis. Sure, Blanchard went through the chain of command. One set of records the GAO tried to locate were the outgoing base communications, but discovered that they had been destroyed without authorization a long time ago. Hmmmmm. >If Blanchard knew the debris Marcel recovered had incredible, >almost unearthly properties, would he have permitted that news to be >released without first consulting Washington? And if one of the >USAAF's finest had called Washington and told Gen. Ramey or Gen. >Vandenberg: "This stuff is the most amazing thing I've ever seen!" >what would've been the response? "Cool! Send it to us by first >available carrier. According to Dubose, that's EXACTLY what happened, only 2 days earlier. > Oh, and you may as well tell the world. Get your >PIO to send out a press release about it. You don't know what the >stuff is? Oh, call it, um, a 'flying disk.'" >How likely does that sound? How likely does it sound that he would issue a press release about a simple balloon crash? Blanchard seemingly either issued the release because 1) He was something of a renegade officer who sincerely believed the local public should be informed of something significant that concerned them, or 2) It was part of a preplanned debunking campaign to kill once and for all public interest in the reported saucers. First build it up, then make it look ridiculous. (Continued Part 2) Search for other documents from or mentioning: drudiak | legion |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 14 Re: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:48:35 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:12:18 -0400 Subject: Re: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! >From: TotlResrch@aol.com >Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:00:14 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: EXPOSE: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! Kal Korff started this thread with this statement. >Recently, Mr. Ed Komarek raised the issue of my relationship with CSICOP and >Prometheus Books and asked me to "explain" it. This is a fair question, I >suppose, when considering the absurd "political" climate and the emotional >biases in the UFO community. > Kal Korff follows this up with a lengthy expose explaing that he is not a debunker. Then concludes with: >Sincerely yours, >Kal K. Korff -- Confuscious saying: "Don't ever tell UFO believers that >Roswell did not involve the recovery of an alien spacecraft, or you will be >labeled a debunker or a skeptic, especially if you are not one and your >publisher just happens to be Prometheus Books. Nothing you say will ever >convince these types." > But Kal, Confuscious is also saying: "If people only concern themselves with myths" - i.e. Meier, Roswell - "one must ask himself why". __________________________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Leiden, The Netherlands \___________________________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 14 Re: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:21:56 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:21:05 -0400 Subject: Re: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! >From: TotlResrch@aol.com >Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:00:14 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: EXPOSE: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! [text deleted for brevity] >I am my OWN PERSON, and NO PUBLISHER or PERSON will ever dictate to me, my >beliefs! >I consider this non-issue and what has amounted to yet another delusional >fantasy in the minds of a select few, especially Mr. Komarek, to be closed. >Sincerely yours, >Kal K. Korff A great deal is being said about beliefs and relationships that is based more on theory than fact. I would suggest that it would make more sense to wait until your book has hit the book stores before beginning the debate over the veracity of your conclusions. For several weeks now, this list has been inundated with postings related to "evidence" that is about to be unleashed, which has resulted in personal debates that we all have been able to watch unfold. I would rather learn more about the message, than concentrate on the messanger.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 14 MSN UFO Webshow 'debunks' Left at East Gate From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:50:52 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:42:47 -0400 Subject: MSN UFO Webshow 'debunks' Left at East Gate Hi Errol, hi All, The following was forwarded to me for post to the list. Any mistakes are mine! My OCR software is damn near leagally blind! <G> John Velez -------------------------------------------------------------------------- May 13 1997 To: UFO UpDates From: Peter Robbins, co-author of Left at East Gate Subject; Tonight's MSN UFO Webshow (which) debunks Left at East Gate I am not on line, but have asked that this statement be posted on tonight's MSN UFO Webshow. I wish the circumstances prompting my remarks were different, but very much appreciate your taking tile time to read it. 'Peter Robbins, NY. Yesterday afternoon a friend faxed me a page from an Internet service, "UFO Updates Mailing List Archive," noting that the show would be devoted to debunking Left at Fast Gate, a recently published book on England's 1980 Bentwaters-Woodbridge UFO incident. As a co-author of that book, I feel some brief comment from me is appropriate before the debunking begins. The announcement which came to me was written by a Ms. Diana Hopkins. I do not know Ms. Hopkins, but am aware that she requested (and received) a complimentary copy of Left at East Gate from our publisher. As such, one would reasonably expect that she had read it, but Ms. Hopkins does not even know who Larry Warren wrote it with. It was not "well known ufo investigator Kevin Randles," and that is spelled 'Randle' not 'Randles'. Neither of these errors will please Mr. Randle, who has been busy debunking Left at East Gate on this internet list. But as Ms. Hopkins has raised his name in association with our book, readers should be aware of the following facts. Mr. Randle, like this Webshow's host, Sally (not 'Salley') Rayl, believes that the incidents in question occurred over the course of two, and not three nights, as Larry Warren contends. They also believe he had no involvement in any of the events which comprise the incident. Having spent almost ten years of my life pursuing the facts surrounding these events and Larry Warren's place in them, I can say without hesitation that he was most certainly involved, and on a very real third night of UFO activity. The amount and variety of evidence supporting this fact is now there for anyone to read. For the record, Warren was a member of the USAF Security Police stationed at RAF Bentwaters in December 1980. Though on leave in Germany on the first two nights, he was back at the base and on duty on the third and final night. Tonight's Webshow's key witness is former RAF Bentwaters Deputy Base Commander Charles I. Halt (not Robert Halt, Ms. Hopkins). My own, and my co-author's conversations with Mr. Halt were recorded (with his knowledge and permission) and transcribed; they appear in the book. Quoting from them, and from Mr. Randle's comments on the internet, what do you deduce? Randle: . . Halt in various interviews after the events has said that there were only two nights, no third. Robbins (to Halt): . It involved the approximate time of the incident. Halt: which incident? There were three nights. (p.328) Charles Halt told Larry: "I think you sincerely believe what you're saying, and you may be right, and I can't say you're Iying, but I find flaws here and there that I have to resolve for myseIf." So did I, and I invite you to do the same. Read Left at East Gate and make up your mind for yourseIf. Peter Robbins * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 14 Re: Kal K. Korff's UFO Sighting - The DETAILS! From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net> Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 21:44:10 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:01:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal K. Korff's UFO Sighting - The DETAILS! Kal .. you recently wrote to UFO UpDates: >From: TotlResrch@aol.com >Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 18:31:15 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Kal K. Korff's UFO Sighting - The DETAILS! >In a recent posting, Mr. Jerry Cohen wrote: ><snip> ><JC: Re your sighting: Kal, I know this sounds way-out to you, <but... did >you ever think "they" were trying to tell you <something? (and not >necessarily that the Meier case was <true.) I had a similar experience with >same kind of timing, <right over my house back in 1967. (Different craft) ><Respectfully, ><Jerry Cohen ....snip.... and Kal had written: >Would you be willing to share with me the details of your experience? I am >most interested. We can do this off-List if you prefer. ....snip.... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - JC: Actually, Kal, your "Internet courtesy" needs a bit of upgrading. What you refer to as a "posting" was a personal letter to you. Unfortunately it escaped you that it didn't have the "UFO Updates" address, letterhead, 70 column formatting, etc. on it. If I had really wanted it discussed publicly, I would have posted it there. I suppose I'm rather glad I sent the answer I did. Please feel free to post that too, in its entirety. Thanks! Jerry Cohen E-mail: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net> Author: Oberg/Cooper rebuttals Website: http://www.li.net/~rjcohen UFOmind: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/people/c/cohen/ > > >
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 14 Re: 'Project Mogul' - let's get it right! From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com Date: Tue, 13 May 97 17:37:34 cst Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:33:20 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Project Mogul' - let's get it right! >Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 14:11:52 -0500 (CDT) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: 'Project Mogul' - let's get it right! >The issue is this: The original press release said something to >the effect that a relatively "intact" flying disc had been towed >into his barn by a local rancher. >Presumably, the infamous press release would only have been >composed after Blanchard 'debriefed' Marcel and Cavitt upon their >return to base. Where did the idea of a flying disc come from in >the first place, then? Given the nature of the debris field, >whatever it was, there was nothing so large left that a circular >disc-shape could have even been guessed at, let alone logically >inferred. >In the same vein, how did a debris field get translated into the >relatively intact disc of the press release? Theoretically, it >could only have come from what Marcel told Blanchard, seeing as >Marcel was the one so excited about the debris (he stopped off >and told his son he had pieces of a flying saucer). So it would >seem that Marcel exaggerated the situation to begin with, and if >he didn't, then Blanchard did. In other words, the press release >was a complete foul-up in the first place -- at least as far as >accuracy goes. Hi Dennis, I don't think we can infer that, unless you think Marcel, Blanchard and the rest of the respondents could have gotten that flummoxed and excited over shredded mylar/neoprene and balsa wood. That possibility seems even more implausible than the "crashed saucer" explanation. As far as the "stored in his shed" report, well, I suspect that especially those of us in this field can easily appreciate that the media is often confused and mistaken -- especially on fast-breaking news based on disparate verbal accounts. I don't think Blanchard would have ordered the issuance of the "RAAF captures flying disk" press release without having some measure of confidence that that is exactly what happened. >Why did Marcel then think he had found a flying disc not made on >this planet? Only he can tell us that, but he's no longer alive. >He had no way of *knowing* that the debris wasn't from some >supersecret terrestrial technology, ours or the Soviets, nor did >he have a way of intuiting that all the tiny pieces, when put >back together, would form a disc shape. They could just as >easily have formed a triangle or flying wing shape. Clearly, >Marcel was extrapolating from the start. As an Army Air Force intelligence officer, Marcel was exposed to the highest technology of his day -- including nuclear weapons. I think one could easily argue that if Marcel (who nobody has ever accused of being stupid, insane or out to make a buck off his experience) thought the debris was from "out of this world," he was probably in an excellent position to make that determination. >And I don't mean that as a character slur, but as a simple >statement of fact. The Arnold case was less than two weeks old, >'flying saucers' were in the air (and news), and so was a $3000 >reward. Under similar circumstances, any one of us might have >jumped to similar conclusions. >The same also applies to Marcel Jr. Try imagining yourself as >an 11-year-old boy just rousted out of bed by your father who >wants you to look at pieces of a flying saucer from another >world. You'd be excited, too. Absolutely correct on both counts. >Just as interesting as what Marcel did say is what he *didn't* >say, and here supporters can't have it both ways. Nothing is said >of a second crash site or recovered alien bodies. Yet it's >inconceivable that Marcel, sent out to recover the 'first' >saucer, wouldn't have been involved in any additional recoveries >as well. Given his record and who he was, you can't just write >him out of the loop that conveniently. In short, had there been a >second crash site and bodies (and autopsies), Marcel would have >known about it. If he already 'knew' a flying saucer had been >recovered, there would have been no earthly reason to boot him >out of the loop now. In fact, had such evidence been obtained, >it's likely that Marcel would have been on his way with it to >Wright-Pat instead of Ft. Worth. Not necessarily, Sasquatch. Remember, the AF needed a patsy to be paraded before the press as "The Man So Foolish He Coundn't Tell The Difference Between a Weather Balloon and a Flying Saucer." >It's also likely that *if* a UFO and alien bodies *had* been >recovered, that Blanchard would have been severely punished for >prematurely announcing same without first acquiring approval and >permission. You can be damn sure that if it had happened like >that, that orders would have gone out to every base commander in >the country as to what procedures to take when the *next* >crashed UFO was recovered. Similarly, you would have expected >every base in the country and around the world to have been put >on a high state of alert in anticipation of the next saucer >'recovery' -- or even eventual attack. In other words, flying >saucers would have been a known *reality* at that point -- and >this country's first military priority, even more so than the >Soviet Union. But we also know for a fact that this didn't >happen. Sorry, folks, but no way that kind of immense paper >trail could have been covered up. Fact of the matter is we would >probably have approached the Soviets, at least by diplomatic >feelers, at that point and said something to the effect that, >Look, I know we just whipped Hitler, but this could be worse. >After all, if a saucer could accidentally crash here, what >logical reason would we have for thinking that they wouldn't >crash in Russia just as easily. There may have been no "UFO" policy in effect at that time. However, your point about a higher degree of readiness after any revelation of an alien presence is a good one. I don't know that there was an alert after Roswell, but as I recall, there were alerts after the 1952 DC overflights. Also, if we did recover samples of alien technology, I don't think we would have informed Joeseph Stalin of that fact. >This is one reason why Vallee and others say the Air Force >couldn't cover up the UFO phenomenon even if they had a >rationale for doing so. A UFO crashing in the suburbs of Paris, >for example, would make just as much news as the crash of a 747 >outside Orly Airport. And Roswell, if nothing else, *implies* >that saucers are as failure-prone as our own aircraft. In 50 >years' time, then, if UFOs were as numerous as everyone seems to >think they are, there would have been at least one unequivocal >crash in the world somewhere that the US Air Force would have >been incapable of sweeping under the privacy rug, no matter how >big a broom they wield. You are of course, correct on this. But if Roswell was a one-of-a-kind failure, a once-every-50-year failure record would still be most impressive. Regards, Vince Search for other documents from or mentioning:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 14 Re: 'Roswell Rods' From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 03:55:59 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:05:30 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Roswell Rods' Recently, there has been talk about "huge Rods" being seen and filmed over Roswell. While I have not taken the time to analyze these images in detail, I have taken a cursory look at them and have noticed a couple of things: 1) They are almost always pretty much out of focus -- which is unfortunate and, to some, suspicious. 2) The photographer and his (presumed wife) have also photographed "ghosts" on numerous occasions. 3) There is a video and still photos of these images for sale. 4) OF COURSE they have "showed up" just in time for the 50th anniversary of Roswell. While I have no idea(s) whether these images are "real" or not, I do hope that he goes out and buys a powerful zoom lens so that better images can be obtained. We need more than just blurry, out of focus images to work with if there's any hope of resolving this issue. This is what I would hope any prudent person would do given the chance to capture these "ETs" on film repeatedly. It also might help to have more than one photographer involved, shooting at different angles and with varying video, film, and camera equipment and lenses. Finally, I am not optimistic this will ever be done, (IF past cases can be considered a pecedent) and it is a shame that once again when the apparent opportunity to bring a scientifically controlled environment for documenting these things and can easily be done, that some excuse will probably be made as to why this wasn't possible. The most likely one? "They quit showing up" It will be interesting to see how this case develops. I, too, would encourage people to checkout the "Rods" WEB site and peruse BOTH the "ghost" photos and the supposed "UFO" pictures. Who knows, maybe we just might get lucky this time around. Kal K. Korff
The UFO UpDates Archive Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 14 Kal Korff Declared Winner in Meier Debate From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:13:23 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:05:37 -0400 Subject: Kal Korff Declared Winner in Meier Debate From: TotalResearch, Public Affairs Office, (TotlResrch@aol.com) To: Updates@globalserve.net Date: May 13, 1997 Subject: Kal Korff Declared Winner in Meier Debate FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Kal Korff Declared Winner in Meier Debate Seattle, Washington -- In a nationally-aired debate on the syndicated radio show "SIGHTINGS," TotalResearch President and CEO, Kal Korff, debated UFO author and researcher J. Randolph Winters on the merits of the controversial Eduard "Billy" Meier case of Switzerland. In the two hour broadcast, both Korff and Winters stated their positions on the Meier case: Korff expressing his views that the case is an elaborate hoax, and Winters stating that the "core" of the case was real. A studio audience for the debate, consisting 15 people, 9 females and 6 males, declared Korff the overwhelming winner, by a margin of 13-2. "I just think Mr. Kal Korff proved his case more convincingly. And Mr. Winters admitted that Mr. Kal was right on many points." stated Brian Young, one of the studio audience members who voted for Korff. Although Korff was voted as having won the debate, two people expressed disappointment. "I expected fireworks, fire and brimstone, that sort of thing." exclaimed Sara Trujillo, one of the audience poll members. "Instead, both Mr. Winters and Mr. Korff were very civilized to each other and I find those kind of debates to be very boring." What the Korff and Winters debate lacked in the form of verbal fireworks, it more than made up for in a series of startling revelations about the Meier case by Randolph Winters. To the surprise of both the SIGHTINGS show host, Mr. Jeff Rense, and Kal Korff, Mr. Winters conceded that there were real "problems" with some of the Meier evidence. "I was pleasantly surprised that Mr. Winters admitted that Meier's photos of the planet Venus are really images from the Mariner 10 spacecraft passed off as 'real'. I was also surprised to hear Mr. Winters admit that he did not believe in many of the so-called time-travel images that Meier claims he has taken." stated Korff. In another startling admission, Randolph Winters also conceded that he had transcripts from Billy Meier's "visit" with "Jesus Christ" which Meier claims took place at the age of 19. Winters voiced his skepticism of the account as being true because he said it was full of egotistical remarks about Meier himself, "probably written by Meier himself." Winters also disclosed that he gave copies of Meier's "conversation" with Jesus Christ to UFO researcher Dr. James Deardorff, who has written extensively on the subject of the "Talmud Jmmanuel," the so-called "last testament" of Christ. "I found that revelation by Mr. Winters fascinating, because I am not aware that Mr. Deardorff has ever shared this remarkable 'contact' with the public. I now challenge Jim Deardorff to do so, and come forth with this information that he apparently has. The public has a right to see this. Obviously, the whole issue of this Talmud, and its' professed authenticity, must be judged in part in consideration of this discussion Meier says he had with Jesus." stated Kal Korff after the debate. Winters also contradicted himself towards the end of the program, when he denied Korff's charge that Meier runs a cult. However, after hearing several examples cited by Korff of how Meier makes his followers "live their lives according to the Pleiadians," and how they "control how many kids you can have, when you can have them, and what the severe penalties are if you violate their rules" he admiited that Korff was right. Korff also mentioned that Meier's followers must give "10% of their salary every month to the group," with Korff calling it "Pleiadian tithing." Winters then admitted Korff was right on this point as well, and conceded that he had left the Meier group himself after they tried to impose the very same restrictions on him! Although Winters was not available for interviews after the debate, Korff was asked for his thoughts about the two hour affair. "It was a very interesting debate from the standpoint that Winters admitted and agreed with some of my research in my book that exposes Billy Meier. This surprised me. The last time I saw him he was much more confrontational. But for me, the real issue isn't who won or lost, it's the fact that the public got to hear both sides of the case and now they can decide whatever they will. I think this is what debates should be all about. I am glad it was not an intense debate, nor a heated one. I simply went with its' flow." At the conclusion of the show, Winters stated that he thought the core of the Meier case was genuine but that much of the evidence surrounding the case has indeed been faked. The two ended the debate by restating their positions that the UFO subject should be investigated fully and both admitted having had a sighting of an unidentified flying object. J. Randolf Winters' book supporting the Meier case is called "The Pleiadian Mission: A Time of Awareness" and is privately-published by the Pleiades Project. Kal K. Korff's book exposing the Meier case is called "Spaceships of the Pleiades: The Billy Meier Story" and is published by Prometheus Books.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 14 Astronomer Drakes' ET Announcement? From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 03:37:47 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:05:42 -0400 Subject: Astronomer Drakes' ET Announcement? From: Kal K. Korff Date: Thu, 14 May 1997 To: Updates@globalserve.net Subject: Astronomer Darkes' ET Announcement? I recently read in a Dutch newspaper that famed Astronomer Frank Drake is on record as saying more or less, after translaton into English: "Unfortunately up to now we haven't received any signals coming from extraterrestrial life forms. Despite this, we do have evidence of the existence of extraterrestrial civilizations." Drake is alleged to have made these remarks after commenting both on the number of new planets that have been discovered on a new series of very powerful radio telescopes that will come "on line" in the year 2001 and through 2003. These new radio telescopes will purportedly increase our ability to "eavesdrop" on the universe 150,000 times! Does anyone know about this and if Drake REALLY said this and IF he DID, what "evidence" he's referring to?? I thought I would throw this out for discussion in case anyone has any information. It could be important. Sincerely yours, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 14 Magazine News From: bhamilto@pcshs.com Date: Wed, 14 May 97 12:45:21 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:31:02 -0400 Subject: Magazine News Dear All, We may someday get all of our news on the Internet, but then there is still a world out there that publishes magazines found on news stands. Here are three interesting ones currently on the stands: 1) Popular Science - featuring ROSWELL celebration 2) Popular Mechanics - featuring the NEW AREA 51. 3) UFO Magazine - featuring ROSWELL with an article on Phil Corso Bill Hamilton Executive Director SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL Home e-mail: billh46088@aol.com, starmanbh@aol.com Work e-mail: bhamilto@pcshs.com SKYWATCH website: http://www.wic.net/colonel/ufopage.htm ALIEN MAGIC website: http://members.aol.com/billh46088/newhome.htm "It is easier to ridicule than investigate, but not as profitable" - Alan ---------- TO LEAVE THE LIST, send a message to: majordomo@primenet.com with the one line message of: unsubscribe in_search_of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 14 Re: Roswell: Historical Facts (Part 2) From: DRudiak@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:14:56 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:35:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Roswell: Historical Facts (Part 2) >From: legion@werple.net.au [John Stepkowski] >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Roswell: Historical Facts >To: updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto) >Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 08:30:53 +1000 (EST) Part 2 of Exchange on what really happened at Roswell. > > We know that Blanchard suffered no negative career repercussion > > as a result of the Roswell press release. And neither did Marcel or Haut, no reprimands, no nothing. There goes your silly theory that Marcel was an insubordinate officer and behind the whole thing. Marcel would have been an easy sacrificial lamb if he had screwed up and would have been drummed out of the service. Instead, he got high marks in his subsequent evaluations by both Blanchard and Ramey, and was promoted to a very sensitive, Top-Secret position a year later. Why would they do that to an unreliable screwup? Blanchard had friends in high places and was one of the Air Force's fast rising stars. If he had fouled up, they may have chosen to overlook it. But not Marcel. >Which wouldn't have been the case if he'd been a maverick who'd >decided to "spill the beans" to the world against the orders of his >superiors. Or if he'd been the victim of someone else's >carelessness. Conceivably, he had no such orders, or the whole thing hadn't been officially classified. This was all very new. Technically, then, the worse he would have been guilty of would have been poor judgment, but not insubordination. In any case, the military quickly made lemonade from lemons and realized no damage had been done. In fact, in turned out to be a wonderful way to ridicule UFOs then and to the present day. Why, there are still people today who actually believe an atomic bomber base like Roswell was staffed by drooling idiots who had never seen aluminum foil and balsa wood before. Or maybe he was part of a cleverly coordinated debunking campaign from higher up, in which case he was just carrying out orders. Therefore, there would not have been any repercussions. The same reasoning applies in spades to Marcel. If he was just following orders, nothing would have happened to him. He might even be singled out as being extremely loyal and reliable (Blanchard did that in following evaluations). On the other hand, there would have been VERY serious consequences for an underling like him if he had badly screwed up or been insubordinate. He had no buddy generals in Washington, like Blanchard had, who might cover for him. There is NO indication, however, that he was ever disciplined or marked down in any way. >Whatever happened, a release seems to have been officially >sanctioned. Perhaps, perhaps not. We may never know for sure. > The mystery remains over who wrote the release and why >they used the words they did. Concluding that a trunk full of >bits and pieces were part of a "flying disk" sounds like someone >desperately wanted that material to be from a "flying disk." No it sounds like intelligent, well-trained people drawing logical inferences from anomalous debris, perhaps one large chunk, a reported explosion, an elongated crash field suggesting high speed, and a flood of reports of high-speed, unknown objects. Some of these reports came from military personnel and scientists within New Mexico. >As fast as the tumult over the Roswell "disk" arose, it subsided >just as quickly. Reading the newspaper reports of the time >highlights this fact. _Big News_ July 8 and 9 (the other papers >were a day behind the _Roswell Daily Record_), and nothing about >Roswell after the "it was just a balloon" explanation. In fact, >the Roswell disk story crashed to earth rapidly after the >Haut/Blanchard/Marcel/Some Guy press release hit the newswire. >Here's a brief excerpt from Loren Gross's excellent _UFOs: A History >Volume 1: 1947_ detailing just how quickly the press release was >"deflated": > [...] > Bedlam. > Washington was caught flat-footed. So many reporters jammed > the Pentagon press room one would think money was being given > away. Lt. General Hoyt Vandenberg, Vice Chief of Staff, Army Air > Corps, dashed to the press room to take charge personally and > bring some order out of the chaos. You realize, of course, that in the present day, the Air Force debunker boys are denying that Vandenberg was involved in any way, and accused the newspapers of making this all up. (This would include newspapers such as the New York Times, Washington Post, and San Francisco Examiner, who were among those that reported Vandenberg's involvement. If you believe the Air Force, it wasn't money, but hallucinogens being given away to reporters.) His secretary's diary does detail a crowded afternoon schedule of appointment and phone calls. A preplanned meeting with Air Marshall Goddard at 3:00 P.M. EDT on "4 subjects," however, does not appear to have been kept. This left a short gap between 3:10 and 3:25 PM, enough time for Vandenberg to have ducked into the Pentagon press room and put in an appearance. This just happens to be "within an hour" of the original press release going on the wire, as reported in the New York Times. > Fending off the pad and pencil > boys, General Vandenberg got Fort Worth, Texas, Eighth Air Force > Headquarters on the phone and conferred with the officer in > charge, Brig. General Roger Ramey. Nearly every major American > newspaper, plus some foreign ones, tied up the phone lines to the > Roswell Sheriff Office of George Wilcox. The San Francisco > _Examiner_, however, correctly surmised that the Commanding > Officer of the Eighth Air Force was its best bet and got through > just ahead of its competitors > After Vandenberg hung up, General Ramey made himself > available to the press. The San Francisco _Examiner_, a Hearst > paper, was the first to get through to the General. The > _Examiner_ found General Ramey in a seemingly jocular mood whose > first words when picking up the receiver were: "Everybody in the > country is trying to get through on this telephone." I wonder where Gross got this? It wasn't in the Examiner article. Does anybody know? Also it's not at all clear that the Examiner called Ramey before or after Vandenberg. The Examiner story suggests they called approximately an hour (or about 3:20 Washington time) after the press release and were the first to get through to Ramey. Ramey described a weather balloon and radar reflector to them. The article said, "His description tallied with that of radar reflectors sent up with weather balloons every day at Oakland." Radar reflectors were used everywhere by military and civilian weather stations, including those at Roswell and Fort Worth. They were no mystery. The stories the following day had Newton saying that particular style radar reflector could have come from any of 80 weather stations, Other stories and PHOTOS of the exact same radar reflector being launched or recovered elsewhere backed this up. Incidentally, the Examiner story blamed the press release on Haut, not Marcel or Blanchard. Other newspapers did as well, such as the S.F. Chronicle, Oakland Tribune, and Washington Post, who all ridiculed him for his "mistake" and called him things like an "eager-beaver" public information officer. If anybody should have been bitter, it would have been Haut, not Marcel. > His > statement on the saucer matter was less sensational than those > coming from Roswell. The fragments, General Ramey said, were > "flimsy," of a foil construction of some sort. The General had > the word of Warrant Officer Irving Newton, the Fort Worth Air > Base forecaster, that the thing as only a beat up weather balloon > radar reflector. The Fort Worth commander expressed his > consolations that he had to disappoint the news media by > stripping the saucer find of its glamor. > The tumult had lasted an hour. Whoah! Let's back up here a moment! According to the Washington Post, when Vandenberg called, Ramey said the object was "of very flimsy constuction -- almost like a box-kite," made of wood and with a cover "like tinfoil." He then added that hadn't actually seen it yet. [!!] Then "he went to take a look, and called back that it was about 25 feet in diameter. [!!] He said he was shipping it on to Wright Field, Ohio, but would have one of the meteorological officers look at it first." Several points here. First and foremost, Ramey couldn't have seen it yet because Jesse Marcel's plane had just taken off from Roswell and hadn't arrived. There was nothing to see. Second, note that Ramey described it as being "25 feet in diameter." This description continued to be put out for hours afterwards. Now look at the Fort Worth photos. Is there anything there that could even remotely be described as "25 feet in diameter?" Where did Ramey get this description? Obviously Ramey had seen nothing of the sort, not surprising since Marcel and the debris were still en route. Third, note that Ramey indicated that he had yet to have a meteorological officer look at it. Ramey certainly DID NOT have the word of Irving Newton at this point. This is also clearly indicated in the Examiner story, which says he wasn't called in until later. Newton didn't enter the picture for perhaps another 2-3 hours. Gross' chronology is way out of whack. Fourth, it wasn't all over after only an hour. Ramey was definitely putting out a weather balloon story within an hour to get the press off their backs, as Dubose and Marcel said, but the infamous Fort Worth photos of the radar reflector weren't taken for another 2 hours or so. Marcel hadn't gotten there yet for one thing, and the photographer remembers this happening at around 4:30 p.m. Fort Worth time or 5:30 Washington time. Newton was probably called in after that at some sort of press conference, and Ramey went on the air at some time after 6:00. It was also after 6:00 that the first wire stories appeared announcing that the "disc" was nothing but a meteorological device, and it was also at this time that the FBI Dallas office sent their telegram saying that Ramey's intelligence officer told them it was nothing but a balloon and radar reflector. So what was Ramey up to between the Vandenberg/Examiner calls and the photos about 2 hours later? Could it be that he and his staff were finding their weather balloon shill? > After the capture story had swelled and then burst like a > bubble, military officers at Roswell Field received, according to > sources known to United Press, a "blistering rebuke" from Air > Corps Headquarters in Washington for their part in the panic. Well, that's what the press was told, but Walter Haut certainly doesn't remember getting any such calls. And there certainly isn't anything in Marcel's record about being rebuked or reprimanded. And neither Marcel's or Blanchard's careers were hurt in the least. >Consider the aftermath of the "panic". The day after the excitement >had subsided, there was Gen. Ramey in his office, looking through >the newspapers in which his picture featured so prominently. Nice >pictures. No doubt Mom would've been proud. One of the recent interesting comments about this by the photographer, C. Bond Johnson, is that he's always wondered why Ramey was all decked out in his dress uniform, as if it were an historic occasion, while others like Marcel and Dubose were in their ordinary work uniforms. Johnson also wondered why Ramey would be stinking up his office with a rotting weather balloon, when crash debris was normally displayed for the press out in one of the hangars. Does "photo-op" ring a bell? > The phone was no longer >jangling off the hook with calls from reporters, and Haut et al. had >been suitably dressed down. Except there's nothing to indicate that Haut, "et al" were actually "dressed down." > The aggregate damage to the soon-to-be >USAF? Minimal. Had it happened today, Letterman and Leno would have >feasted off the incident for months, but by July 10, 1947, Roswell was >just a small town in New Mexico with an A-Bomb base again. An A-bomb base run by a drooling idiot Commanding Officer and head Intelligence Officer, neither of whom had never seen balsa wood and aluminum foil before. Neither had anyone else at Roswell, or up and down the chain of command. That's what we're supposed to believe to swallow all this tripe. >And Major Marcel seemed to agree with that. No stories from him of >large numbers of C-54s descending on the base with all manner of >experts, Not surprising, since for most of the time, he wasn't even at the base. First he was out at the debris field from the evening of July 6 to the night of July 7. He was at Roswell base the following mornng until shortly after noon when the he was sent to Fort Worth with the debris he had recovered from the day before. When he arrived at Fort Worth, he was kept there until late on July 9, when two witnesses place him on a return flight back to Roswell. He wouldn't have been there when the major recovery occurred out at the Brazel ranch. Hence, no stories of C-54s and all manner of experts. > no sudden influx of unknown personnel, no heightened state of >alert at the base, no major road trains driving out into the desert >and, most importantly, no stories about recovered flying saucers - >complete ones this time - and ET bodies being stored in aircraft >hangars. Again, he wouldn't have been there. > As far as Major Marcel was concerned, his "saucer" was a lot >of sticks/beams and bits of foil-like material that were spirited >away, never to be seen again. And he wasn't even ordered not to talk >about this "unearthly debris," either. It was a common comment from base personnel besides Marcel, that you just didn't talk about things that happened at the base. That was understood. BTW, Marcel did sign a security oath upon leaving active duty, but this was probably standard operating procedure. > > A third point concerns the shipment of Roswell debris to > > Wright-Patterson. While this has not been proved beyond a doubt > > like the press release and Blanchard's subsequently successful > > career in the AF, > >Can you clarify this, please? No one is disputing that the press >release was written. The question is where does the release fit into >the "Big Picture" that has become the Roswell story/legend/myth? > >I don't understand how documenting Blanchard's career has any bearing >on the "disk" story. Blanchard was a brilliant officer. When he died >of a heart-attack some years later, he'd risen to the rank of >three-star general. The fact that he was a "brilliant officer" and a rising star in the Air Force with many high-level friends like LeMay and Ramey might also explain why he could write a press release on his own authority, and not suffer serious consequences when it blew up into a media feeding frenzy. > > the evidence overwhelmingly supports the allegations that > > whatever debris was recovered was then air transported elsewhere. >The 'Mogul' debris was transported to Ft. Worth where Irving Newton >examined it. There is no evidence that Newton ever saw the debris that Marcel flew to Fort Worth. Both Marcel and Gen. Dubose said Ramey swapped it with a weather balloon and radar reflector. Contrary to claims of the debunking community, this particular style radar reflector was far from unique to the Mogul Project. Newton himself in 1947 said it could have come from any of 80 other weather stations and they were launched every day. He was backed up by the comments of other weather officers, plus the launching of IDENTICAL weather targets in Kansas City and near Wright Field the following day, as part of a nationwide saucer debunking campaign. There is a good deal more evidence of a debris swap, such as the sudden appearance of a strong odor associated with this balloon, which NOBODY had ever mentioned BEFORE in association with the debris at the Brazel place. > It was later flown to Wright Field where, according to >the USAF 'Mogul' report, it was confirmed as meteorological >equipment by a Colonel Duffy. This was a second-hand, UNCORROBORATED anecdote by the former Mogul Project Officer and head of security. It would take me a long time to point out some of the inconsistencies in this story. I have done it elsewhere recently, and this post is already EXTREMELY long. >I can't say where the flying saucer and the ET bodies ended up, >though. Nobody can say where the so-called Mogul debris ended up either. Ramey and his henchmen first told the press that the special flight to Wright Field had been cancelled. There was no reason to send it there, because it was, after all, nothing but a humble, torn-up weather balloon. A few hours later, the story got changed. Ramey admitted to the press it was being sent there, and Wright Field said it was on its way but hadn't arrived yet. The FBI telegram says the FBI was told the debris was being flown there and that the FBI was to be informed of the results of any analysis. The GAO did try to search some of Wright Field's command records, but found nothing. There was also no record in FBI files that the FBI was ever told anything about what Wright Field concluded, including Duffy's alleged identification. And for some reason, Trakowski after supposedly being told about it by Duffy, failed to make a record of what happened to this balloon for Mogul records or telling any of his people about it. And Mogul DID keep track of its balloon recoveries or what happened to them. Another thing Trakowski failed to do was mention anything about this incident two years later, when Project Grudge requested that he correlate Mogul launches with UFO reports. Trakowski said NONE of the early Moguls could possibly account for any of the reports being studied, including such reports as Kenneth Arnold's, being launched at the wrong time and in the wrong place. For some reason Trakowski failed to mention anything about one of their balloons at one time being mistaken for a crashed flying saucer. Those are among those nagging inconsistencies I mentioned above. >Thought-provoking post, Vince, thanks. Perhaps we can use this >opportunity to clear up the mystery of "Who Wrote The Roswell Press >Release?" >My guess: Major Marcel In the Study With The Typewriter... ;-) I guess you haven't been keeping track of the Clues. Miss Blanchard, Sgt. Haut, Mr. McQuiddy, and all the other evidence suggest that Col. Blanchard did it with the Telephone in his Office. His accomplice was General Ramey with a Weather Balloon in Fort Worth. ;-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 14 Re: Are contactees ever lied to? From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:47:36 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:27:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >From: Jeroen Wierda <mj_1@thepentagon.com> >To: "'UFO UpDates - Toronto'" <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:29:15 +0200 >>Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:50:06 +0200 (MET DST) >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >>Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 16:10:17 +0200 >>From: Jeroen Wierda <mj_1@thepentagon.com> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Are contactees ever lied to? >If you followed this thread to the start, >what the original contributor meant was >that hypnosis is unreliable even when the therapist >is NOT influencing the therapist. This is only so in >details without emotional value. >[JW] Hypnosis is unreliable, until real scientific proof exists that can prove >otherwise. Emotions are irrelevant in this. It's similar to lie detectors... "Real scientific proof". This is something that is only brought up by people who don't understand science. Jeroen, I think the roof of my house will fall down some day and I am going to move until I have real scientific proof that it doesn't. Scientific investigation into hypnosis has of course been done. It showed that emotions were highly relevant to the accuracy of the recollection. But we are going round in circles here, so I'll terminate this discussion. >>[JW] I can name a few who can clearly be seen and heard as influencing >>the subjects. Like Dr. John Mack, and Budd Hopkins. It is on tape that >>they ask their questions in such a way that the subject MUST remember. >What tape? >[JW] I have several VHS tapes from documentaries where one can clearly >see and hear that Therapists influence their targets. After reading your entire message I found out that you mean the doc 'Kidnapped by UFOs'. This one proves that they do NOT influence their subjects. What you are doing, Jeroen, is quoting Elizabeth Loftus word for word. False memory syndrom is her pet theory and clouds her mind and the minds of the viewers. >[JW] You can see and hear from the tapes that they are influencing the >subjects with questions like. "What did the being look like? Grey or green?" Apparently Loftus and you don't find it significant that they all say they are grey. >Now is that a leading question or not? "You were on the table, then what >happened? If the subject has told the therapist this, no not at all. Jeroen, try studying interview techniques for a start. Why do you think the interviewer repeats what a subject has said? Think. You can remember more.... your body remembers... ", >etc..etc..etc. How can one's body remember if your mind doesn't??? Whether the body remembers or the toe or the nose is irrelevant. Apparently the abductions are coming out again and again. Hopkins has his technique, Mack has its own, Hilda Musch in the Netherlands does not use hypnosis at all, and they all find abductees. And I suppose you never heard of people with conscious memory of abductions which form a large part of the total. >But it only clouds the mind if the questions are leading. >There is a distinct difference between leading >and non-leading questions that debunkers are >conveniently forget or are unaware of. >>The mind tries to form a picture >>of that event that can nicely fit with what the therapist wants. >Again, only if the therapist is leading. Where is proof of this? >[JW] Again... proof is on tape, I have some. You can also buy tapes from >stores, and view them. Look objective, and see what happens. I look objectively while you are quoting Elizabeth Loftus word for word. Loftus does a good job in leading many viewers unconsciously to a false memory. >>In many hypnotic sessions >>the therapist is trying (unknowingly?) to get the classic abduction >>story because he/she knows what that looks like. >Again, examples >[JW] Discovery channel had a very interesting Documentary a few weeks >ago where you can see Dr. John Mack sending a full package of UFO related >material to a subject. There was no way to appear on a counseling meeting >without being "prepared"...! Are all therapists doing this in all cases? No, because in the beginning they didn't even know what abductions were. In fact, the very first hypnosis session on Betty and Barney Hill was done by Dr. Benjamin Simon, who was an outspoken sceptic and tried to lead the Hills into believing that they were not abducted. And have you read the letters Mack received previously from this subject in the documentary? The letters were from Donna Bassett, who had decided to deliberately set up Mack and sold her story to Time Magazine. Is it really necessary to present such cases here and pretend they are representative of what's going in the therapeutic process? Discriminate signal from noise. >>It is something like >>getting hypnosis to "remember" your undoubtly many past lives. >Which can be true as well. >[JW] If that is true, then there are hundreds of people out there who were >Cleopatra, or any other historical significant person! Go to a pub and do a poll on how many times the guys had sex last week. Does that mean sex doesn't exist? Btw I stop this discussion because this is a different suject. >>There is many proof out there that can clearly show you that false >>memories can be planted inside a subject while undergoing hypnotic >>regression. >If you have read my previous posting carefully I said that this >only happens when the therapist is influencing the subject. >I know that people like Dr. Robert Baker and Dr. Elizabeth Loftus >have demonstrated that implanting memories is possible. They have >shown this in documentaries like "Kidnapped by UFOs", that was >aired in the USA by ABC, I believe. There they deliberately try >to influence the subject from the start and go to great lengths >to achieve this. >[JW] How about the classic story "Lost in a super mall"? Jeroen, call Elizabeth Loftus and sign up for her course, you would make a perfect student. >Over several >sessions a therapist lets a subject remember that she has been lost in a >supermall for a few hours, until an elder lady escorts her back. Her >parents testified that she has never ever been lost in a mall before. And >yet, after several sessions, she has complete memories of her traumatic >(emotional) experience. I have seen this. Are Mack and Hopkins doing the same thing? No. So it's irrelevant. I wished people were better able to distinguish between what is true and what is true AND relevant. It would save us a lot of time. >But it is all irrelevant toying around with pet theories because >it is not what abduction therapists are doing. They have shown this >in the same documentaries. >So unless you provide proof of the opposite I cannot take these >theories seriously. You must remember that Baker and Loftus and in >the Netherlands Prof.dr. Crombagh have developed these theories >in a different context, mainly child abuse, and that their >theories were applied to alien abductions only after the media >asked them their opinion on that subject. Apparently, they >haven't studied this subject as carefully as child abuse. >[JW] I do not know those people, unfortunately. So I cannot comment >on them. As I said the woman who debunks Hopkins in the doc is Loftus. Baker stars in the same show. >All this despite the fact that there are multiple witness >abduction cases. See http://www.ufoic.com/faq, "What is the >best evidence for abductions?". >[JW] Ok... you refer to people who remember seeing eachother >in a hypnotic regression, and yet (claim to) have not seen/ met before? No, my faq describes two CONSCIOUS multiple witness alien abductions. Almost half of all abductions and other encounters with aliens are remembered consciously to begin with. And if that is true there is no reason to begin with to pretend that the reliability of hypnosis is relevant. As I said, it is toying around with pet theories. __________________________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Leiden, The Netherlands \___________________________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 15 Re: Kal Korff Declared Winner in Meier Debate From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:01:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff Declared Winner in Meier Debate > From: TotlResrch@aol.com > Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:13:23 -0400 (EDT) > To: Updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Kal Korff Declared Winner in Meier Debate > From: TotalResearch, Public Affairs Office, (TotlResrch@aol.com) > To: Updates@globalserve.net > Date: May 13, 1997 > Subject: Kal Korff Declared Winner in Meier Debate > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > Kal Korff Declared Winner in Meier Debate > Seattle, Washington -- In a nationally-aired debate on the syndicated radio > show "SIGHTINGS," TotalResearch President and CEO, Kal Korff, debated UFO > author and researcher J. Randolph Winters on the merits of the controversial > Eduard "Billy" Meier case of Switzerland. Etc. > In another startling admission, Randolph Winters also conceded that he had > transcripts from Billy Meier's "visit" with "Jesus Christ" which Meier claims > took place at the age of 19. Winters voiced his skepticism of the account as > being true because he said it was full of egotistical remarks about Meier > himself, "probably written by Meier himself." > Winters also disclosed that he gave copies of Meier's "conversation" with > Jesus Christ to UFO researcher Dr. James Deardorff, who has written > extensively on the subject of the "Talmud Jmmanuel," the so-called "last > testament" of Christ. > "I found that revelation by Mr. Winters fascinating, because I am not aware > that Mr. Deardorff has ever shared this remarkable 'contact' with the public. > I now challenge Jim Deardorff to do so, and come forth with this information > that he apparently has. The public has a right to see this. Obviously, the > whole issue of this Talmud, and its' professed authenticity, must be judged > in part in consideration of this discussion Meier says he had with Jesus." > stated Kal Korff after the debate. Etc. Hello to the List, Don Allen already posted this a few weeks ago, to our list. It was fairly lengthy, as in it I refuted each of the false claims, errors, misleading impressions and false innuendos -- some 37 of them in all -- that I had found in Korff's book on pp. 36, 78-83. (That's his section that deals with the Talmud of Jmmanuel and Meier's time travel trip.) Quite a few of these came from a Swiss professor whom Korff kept anonymous, and Korff just included the professor's summary without apparently checking out its faulty conclusioins for himself. If others besides Korff want this posted again, I or Don Allen can do so. Otherwise, it's already been done and probably isn't all that relevant for this list. I don't know why Korff put his latter paragraph above in quotes. Jim Deardorff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 15 UFO-related 'On The Road With Bicycle Bob' URL From: bikebob <bikebob@MO.NET> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:58:25 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:42:45 -0400 Subject: UFO-related 'On The Road With Bicycle Bob' URL To all: Patricia Mason has dedicated a specific portion of her 'Unusual Research' web site to some of my UFO-related missives. :) Pat did a great job (on her own...after she contacted me under her own initiative and asked my permission to add my stuff to her web site... I'm sure you'll agree. (I really like the two Bicycle Bs. :) Here's where to go to check it out if you're interested... Linkname: ON The Road With Bicycle Bob URL: http://users1.ee.net/pmason/Bicycle_bob.html Bob Soetebier St. Louis County, Missouri Tailwinds to you... See you ON the road! /// BICYCLE BOB /// bikebob@mo.net
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 15 Re: 'Project Mogul' - let's get it right! From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:41:02 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:04:38 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Project Mogul' - let's get it right! >From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com >Date: Tue, 13 May 97 17:37:34 cst >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'Project Mogul' - let's get it right! >Hi Dennis, >I don't think we can infer that, unless you think Marcel, Blanchard >and the rest of the respondents could have gotten that flummoxed and >excited over shredded mylar/neoprene and balsa wood. That possibility >seems even more implausible than the "crashed saucer" explanation. As >far as the "stored in his shed" report, well, I suspect that >especially those of us in this field can easily appreciate that the >media is often confused and mistaken -- especially on fast-breaking >news based on disparate verbal accounts. >I don't think Blanchard would have ordered the issuance of the "RAAF >captures flying disk" press release without having some measure of >confidence that that is exactly what happened. If memory serves me, it was Mac Brazel that labeled the debris as coming from a "Flying Saucer" when he took samples of the material to the Sheriff Wilcox. I believe it was Loretta Proctor and her husband who told him that the debris might be from a crashed saucer and that a reward was being offered when he showed up to show them the material in question. It would be safe to assume that if this is true, then he would have mentioned as much to the Sheriff, who would have in turn described it as such when he called the AAF Base. I suppose that it might be argued that Marcel viewed the debris with this thought in mind, and thus his interpretation was tainted. But I would seriously suspect that an experience military man would have taken an untrained civilian's opinion with a "grain of salt", and checked it out for himself.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 15 Re: Just a comment on Marcel's Military Records From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:45:26 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:58:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Just a comment on Marcel's Military Records > Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:25:18 -0400 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> > Subject: Just a comment on Marcel's Military Records > A Small Journey to seek the Truth . . . > Jesse Marcel's Military Records > Perhaps it's time for a reality check . . . or perhaps not, > depending on your point of view. <snip> > When I first became aware or the allegations that have been made, I decided > to try and follow this up on my own and obtain a copy of Marcel's records > under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). On January 21, 1997 I > submitted an FOIA request to the Headquarters Air Force Personnel Center, > Randolph Air Force Base, which they acknowledged. On February 12th I > received a reply that was somewhat surprising: I trust your surprise is a result of some limited experience with beaurocracy, I should only have been so fortunate. > "The Air Force Worldwide Locator does not maintain records, but was able to > identify Colonel Marcel on a listing indicating that his records were > burned in the fire at the National Personnel Records Center (MPRC) in St. > Louis in 1973. However, sometimes the MPRC is able to provide information > from alternate record sources on an individual whose military personnel > record was believed to be destroyed in that 1973 fire. Your request is > being forwarded to the National Personnel Records Center/Air Force > Reference, 9700 Page Avenue, St. Louis Missouri 63132-5100 > for their appropriate action. They will reply directly to you." This is a standard form letter. > If true, that would mean that those quoting from Marcel's official record > must have obtained it prior to the fire, and somehow that doesn't seem too > likely. While the letter seemed somewhat ominous, I knew from experience > with the NPRC and other veteran agencies that records were often lost in > the system or simply on loan to another department. But it raises the > question of where all these 200 page "copies" of Marcel's official record > came from. If they're copies, and I doubt that any of them are original > documents, then it is quite likely that they aren't identical. It would be > quite interesting to obtain complete sets of each for comparison. This is incorrect. > But I would be hesitant in accepting arguments that were based solely on > interpretation of what appears most likely to be an incomplete record. > Kevin Randle has pointed out that many of the records are flawed, and that > further complicates the question > as to their completeness. > On April 17, 1997 I received a form response from the National > Personnel Records Center stating that: > "On February 12, 1997 this Center received your request under the Freedom > of Information Act. We find that the pertinent record is not available as > it has not yet been transferred to this Center / has been loaned to the > originating agency." > In addition, I was informed that > "A response to the portion of your request about which there is no question > of releasability is enclosed." > Attached to this form letter was a single sheet, filled out by > hand. It outlined very basic information, and was by no means complete. It > did show the record of a decorated veteran of the Pacific Theater during > World War II, but it boiled his entire military career into about 50 > written words, so I wouldn't call it anything more than interesting. > Until (or Unless) the NPRC is able to locate Marcel's records, or it simply > resurfaces at Randolph Air Force Base, there is no way to tell what > Marcel's official record contains. Without an official record to back up > the "copies" that have been circulating among researchers, we are left with > documents that are unverified. Unfortunately, it would appear that the > system may be designed to always leave open the question of whether or not > the record, as compiled, is complete. Unfortunately the implications you have made regarding Major Marcel's records are wrong and misleading and unfortunately based on imperfect research methods; doing research is never really so easy, where is the perspiration? > If the records were actually destroyed in the 1973 fire, that would leave a > number of questions as to where the circulating "copies" came from. Even > if accurate, they may only paint a partial picture of his career and > conclusions would be flawed as a result. You are jumping the gun here. Did you ask the successful researchers how they obtained their information. Note I did not say to obtain a copy from them since what you are really after is the material from the source with a traceable provenance. They were not. See the information below. > For all the noise and debate, I suspect that we will all find out positions > determined as much by our preconceived notions as by the "rational" > arguements we have seen on the "net" on this issue. > At least that's my opinion as another passenger on this bus. A bit too much opinion and a little too little research. <snip> Unfortunately the implications you have made regarding Major Marcel's records are wrong and misleading and unfortunately based on imperfect research methods. Robert Todd documented how he obtained the 200 page release from the Air Force Military Personnel Center (AFPMC) in Texas in his "The Spot Report" No. 6 12/20/96 issue which is provided with a subscription to Just Cause. His successful method is documented on page 3. He states that instead of requesting Marcel's COMPLETE file, which resulted in the release of limited material. He states: "Knowing that the government is extremely sensitive about releasing medical information from personnel files (even to other family members, and even to the person who is the subject of the file), I subsequently amended my request to exclude all records (or portions thereof) containing medical information. Shortly after I amended my request,, the AFMPC released nearly 200 pages of records from Marcel's personnel file." Its also interesting to note that Mr. Todd states that no one bothered to contact him to find out how he had obtained the record. So that's how he says he obtained it. Why don't you try it and document the results for the readers of UFOpdates. Hope this was helpful, Gary Alevy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 15 Re: Roswell: Historical Facts (Part 1) From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:46:36 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 02:10:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Roswell: Historical Facts (Part 1) Regarding... >From: DRudiak@aol.com >Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:04:44 -0400 (EDT) >Subject: Re: Roswell: Historical Facts Dave Rudiak replied to John Stepkowski thus: >The press release as printed in other papers went: >"The many rumors regarding the flying discs became reality yesterday >when the intelligence office of the 509th (atomic) Bomb Group at the >8th Air Force, Roswell Army Air Field, was fortunate enough to gain >possession of a disc through the cooperaion of one of the local >ranchers and the sheriff's office of Chaves County". The "disc" actually being some flimsy debris, not a structured, disc-shaped object. >"The flying object landed on a ranch near Roswell some time last >week". There was no reported landing. ">Not having phone facilities, the rancher stored the disc...". Brazel put in a safe place? >Others have accused Haut of writing the press release on his own (he >was accused of this in the 1947 press, e.g.), but, once again, there >is no indication that Haut was disciplined in any way. For what it's worth, there is some heresay evidence. From "The Roswell Incident": Question: "Let's go back to how the press and radio people got involved. Can we go over that again?" Maj. Marcel: "It was the public information officer, Haut I believe his name was, who called the AP and later wrote the press release. I heard he wasn't authorized to do this, and I believe he was severely reprimanded for it, I think all the way from Washington". Marcel may have picked this up from the newspapers, but it was possibly also base gossip. >Swancutt, who in July 1947 was assistant Roswell operations officer, >said Blanchard "was convinced he had something very important at >first." That's a scenario suggested by the evidence, it was sincerely believed, at first, that a "flying disc" may have been found. JS>And just who decided to describe the debris as coming from a JS>"flying disk" when Marcel never saw anything remotely disk-shaped? >It's called logic. Disk shaped objects of unknown origin are being >reported flying at high speeds all over the country. Then Marcel and >Blanchard saw anomalous debris which doesn't seem like it could be >made by us. They conclude the debris probably comes from a crashed >disc. It's debatable whether that was a logical conclusion or a speculative one. Either way, it was simply an assumption and subject to human error. >In a phone interview with Leonard Stringfield, Marcel also said that >he and Cavitt inspected a large, intact chunk of debris about 10 feet >across that Brazel had hauled into a shed with his tractor. If this >was the case, then the debris had to have come from a larger craft >of some sort. If it had to be "hauled" by tractor, wouldn't that have been a pretty long haul? The debris site was apparently in a sheep grazing pasture, 7 or 8 miles from the ranch house. I can't locate a reference from his family's testimonies which describes anything other than flimsy, light-weight materials. Did they ever confirm this story? Marcel describes how "one of the fellows tried to put some of the pieces together - like a giant jigsaw. He managed to get about 10 square feet together, but it wasn't enough to get any idea of the general shape of the object itself". I can't see where Marcel ever mentioned, originally, a large piece of heavy debris, about 10 feet across. >He also remembered that Brazel mentioned something about hearing an >explosion. Acording to Marcel, again in "The Roswell Incident", he thought that Brazel had mentioned "an odd explosion" several days before during an electrical storm. Accordingly to Brazel's son, Bill, "He said it was the worst lightning storm he had ever seen". In the midst of the storm there was "an odd sort of explosion", but his father hadn't given it much thought, "because the storm was so bad". JS>Nobody in their right mind would have used a "flying disk" cover JS>story during the Arnold wave of 1947 and not expect to get swamped JS>by reporters. >And that's the big mystery of the press release. One theory advanced >by Haut is that Blanchard was rather unusual in that he really >believed in good public relations and keeping the locals informed of >base happenings. This is essentially what Haut says in the "Unsolved Mysteries" interview. And finding a "flying disc", whatever they were, would have been news. >I also find it hard to believe that NOBODY at Roswell knew anything >about Mogul. The FAA had already been informed of the Project >(without being told, of course, anything about its purpose) since the >large balloons obviously represented a potential aviation hazard. >Yet we're supposed to believe that the Air Force neglected to inform >one of their own, including their nearby and one and only atomic >bomber base. If the FAA were kept informed, but not told any specifics, the same compartmentalisation could have applied to Roswell AAF. As reported in the January-February, 1995 issue of the Skeptical Inquirer, "The Mogul project was so classified and compartmentalized that even Moore didn't know the project's name until Robert Todd informed him of it a couple of years ago". >Both base security and aviation safety requirements would have >demanded that Roswell be told of when these launches took place, and >kept informed of the trajectories of the balloons. Absolutely, but they wouldn't perhaps have a need to know what the launches related to. We can believe that, surely. >Why, there are still people today who actually believe an atomic >bomber base like Roswell was staffed by drooling idiots who had never >seen aluminum foil and balsa wood before. It was certainly staffed by people who believed they had the ability to identify apparently unusual material as "not of this world", and who couldn't get some basic facts correct in their official press release. No need to question their competence to accept they could have been mistaken in some assumptions. JS>As far as Major Marcel was concerned, his "saucer" was a lot of JS>sticks/beams and bits of foil-like material that were spirited JS>away, never to be seen again. And he wasn't even ordered not to JS>talk about this "unearthly debris," either. >It was a common comment from base personnel besides Marcel, that you >just didn't talk about things that happened at the base. That was >understood. But you could stop off at your house and show the family some ET debris? ;) James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 15 Re: Just a comment on Marcel's Military Records From: livesey@trump.net.au (Stuart Livesey) Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 18:20:13 GMT+1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:52:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Just a comment on Marcel's Military Records >Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:25:18 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >Subject: Just a comment on Marcel's Military Records Steve, Thanks for some clear and relevant comments/research into Marcel's records. I was beginning to think that reality had become completely clouded by those who are so keen to ram their ideas (factually based or not) down the throats of everyone else. The truth is there if we are just prepared to keep sifting the evidence and not try and make a "name" for ourselves. Regards Stuart Livesey
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 15 Posting Rules From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:45:19 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:45:19 -0400 Subject: Posting Rules Posting Rules To help current and future readers of UFO UpDates' posts and the UFO UpDates Instant Archive software at: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates please observe the following rules when posting to the List. 1. Line-length Please make your lines no more than 70 characters long ------------------------This line is 70 characters--------------------- Longer lines are wrapped by various pieces of software along the Net and leave awkward and eye-jarring line lengths. 2. Attribution When responding to a message from the List, _always_ include the four line 'header' from the body of that message at the start of _your_ message - e.g..: >Date: 01 Jan 97 00:00:01 EST >From: Genghis@mukluk.com <Bob Bobberts> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Grays are Grey Area Again - it's at the beginning of the 'body' of the message you are responding to. 3. Quoting _Always_ quote from the message to which you are responding. Start each quoted line with a 'greater-than' sign (>) as the first character. It should look like this: >Start each quoted line with a 'greater-than' sign (>) as the >first character. It should look like this: The Archive software will automatically italicize these lines. Visit the Archive page and take a look. Keep quoted material from previous messages to a minimum: Just quote enough text to let people know what you are referring to. Quotes should come _before_ you key your response. Messages that do not utilize the required quoting protocol or contain excessive quoting will not be posted to UpDates. Most modern E-Mail software will allow the user to click a 'Reply' button and automatically open a new window, with the message being responded to inserted with universal quote-mark (>) at the beginning of each line. When 'Reply' is clicked, some E-Mail software will insert a line which states: On 01 Jan 97 at 00:00:01 EST, UFO UpDates wrote: If your program does this, please remove it - UFO UpDates did not _write_ the message - it merely posted it to the List. 5. Don't send 'personal' responses to the list that should be sent directly to the original author. Send a message to the list only if it contains new information that you want _everyone_ to see. Messages that contain what the List Administrator considers to be personal attacks or 'flames' will not be posted to the List. Those messages will be forwarded to the person they refer to for their information. 6. URLs (Web Site addresses) _must_ include 'http://' and be on one line. The Archive software will make the URL a 'click-able' link to that address in your archived message. ------------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 15 Re: Bob Shell Buying Korff's New Roswell Book From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 14 May 97 19:41:48 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:12:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Bob Shell Buying Korff's New Roswell Book >From: TotlResrch@aol.com [Kal K. Korff] >Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 20:17:05 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Bob Shell Buying Korff's New Roswell Book Hi Kal, >Thanks, Bob, (sincerely) for your interest. I should let you know however >that you are mentioned nowhere in the book, even in the alien autopsy >chapter. Honestly, I don't just buy books that I'm mentioned in. My library would be pretty damned small if I did that <G>. >And don't forget to order TWO copies...one for yourself, and one for your >lawyer...even though I understand you have no intention of "suing anyone." Already ordered the two copies, and got a call just a few minutes ago from Waldenbooks to let me know they came in today. No, I don't plan to sue anyone. But those who doubt that Santilli can and will sue over this ought to talk to Chuck Harder and Video Dave. There is a very real lawsuit in progress over the release by For The People of stills and video which were not authorized. >I will address this later Bob, in another posting, but for what it's >worth I AGREE with your comments awhile back about 35mm film sizes, and the >other technical points you mentioned. You are to be commended, in my opinion, >for doing a good job of addressing these issues. It may come as a surprise to you Kal, but some people think I am a debunker too over stuff like this. They want to believe, and don't like it when I point out that photos of "mysterious lights" are simple lens flare, and give them simple, non-technical ways for superimposing images without double exposures to explain how "way cool" photos and videos could easily be faked. My expertise is in photography( and zoology), and when on this familiar turf my bullshit filter works overtime. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 15 Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 14 May 97 19:41:51 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:18:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell >From: Vince_Johnson_at_TENSOR__HSTN@ccmailsmtp.hstn.expl.pgs.com >Date: Thu, 08 May 97 10:45:35 cst >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff's New Book on Roswell Vince, >Besides, don't you find it odd that Shell has never denied any of >these accusations? If that bothers you, consider them denied. I have not previously denied your accusations because I have been ignoring your posts, which are overtly hostile and negative, and I see no need to bother myself with such. I find your constant labeling of me as a "PR Flack" highly offensive, so I have ignored all previous messages in which this odious appellation has appeared. >Yet, after repeated challenges to provide his reasons for his >public statements in support of the authenticity of the AA >"film," and his condemnation of its critics, he could only reply >(flippantly) that it was "a secret." I only replied that way to you, because I do not take you seriously. If you will lighten up, stop being insulting, and appreciate the humor which pervades UFOlogy, not only will you live longer and happier but people like me will take you seriously. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 15 Re: 'Tent Footage' video sold in Italy From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 14 May 97 19:41:43 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:14:00 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Tent Footage' video sold in Italy >Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 08:16:06 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: 'Tent Footage' video sold in Italy >>Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 20:35:29 +0001 (GMT) >>From: Edoardo Russo <erusso@torino.ALPcom.it> >>Subject: Tent footage video sold in Italy >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Hello All! >>You may be interested in learning that the infamous "tent footage" >>is presently being sold on video in thousands of newsstands all >>over Italy for no more than 10 U.S. bucks. >Will this be available in the US? If not, is there a way I could >purchase it through you? >.Joel Henry The "tent footage" is included in the tape that Chuck Harder and Stanton Friedman put together some time ago and were selling through For The People for $ 19.95. I bought a copy. The story I have been told is that Harder borrowed a copy of the tape Bob Kiviat had with the promise not to copy it, and then did copy and sell it. As I understand it, For The People has been sued by Trimark Video for big bucks over this. I've seen several versions of the "tent footage" and, ultimately, it is very unsatisfactory because you just can't tell what is shown in this dim, murky video. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 15 Re: Just a comment on Marcel's Military Records From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 06:55:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:23:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Just a comment on Marcel's Military Records >Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:45:26 -0400 >From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Just a comment on Marcel's Military Records >Unfortunately the implications you have made regarding Major Marcel's >records are wrong and misleading and unfortunately based on imperfect >research methods. Robert Todd documented how he obtained the 200 page >release from the Air Force Military Personnel Center (AFPMC) in Texas in >his "The Spot Report" No. 6 12/20/96 issue which is provided with a >subscription to Just Cause. His successful method is documented on page >3. >He states that instead of requesting Marcel's COMPLETE file, which >resulted in the release of limited material. He states: >"Knowing that the government is extremely sensitive about releasing >medical information from personnel files (even to other family members, >and even to the person who is the subject of the file), I subsequently >amended my request to exclude all records (or portions thereof) >containing medical information. Shortly after I amended my request,, >the AFMPC released nearly 200 pages of records from Marcel's personnel >file." >Its also interesting to note that Mr. Todd states that no one bothered >to contact him to find out how he had obtained the record. >So that's how he says he obtained it. Why don't you try it and document >the results for the readers of UFOpdates. >Hope this was helpful, >Gary Alevy Gary- I happen to work for the U.S. House and handled Veterans Affairs for the Member that I formerly worked for, so I have some knowledge of the information retained and the how it is obtained from the VA. I was advised by Karl Phlock as to the best methodology to proceed with this, and he advised that I start with Randolph AFB, implying that Todd had used that route. He was very surprised by the response. BTW, this was not my first FOIA request. To be quite honest, I posted this to begin a discussion on this issue. I stated in the post that I believe the records do indeed exist, and were probably just lost in the system. The form letter indicates that their records "show" that the Marcel records were destroyed. It does not say that the "may" have been burned in the fire, but states that their files show that to be the case. No evidence can be trusted unless it can be found independantly. Jesse's son has been unable to obtain his father's file, and I obtained his permission to proceed with a search on my own. I have been informed that the Fund for UFO Research, as well as Stanton Friedman, have over 200 pages of Marcel's file, and Korff says he has nearly 200 pages. I would assume that Randle and Todd probably have the same number. While I have discussed this with the Fund and Friedman, I am more curious as to the official information from the Military. Quite honestly, anyone can make up a good scenerio regarding the source of alleged documents, and there are many that are questioning the MJ-12 documents and the newer "MJ-12 Operations Manual". Are we to blindly accept the word of researchers as to their source, or should we accept some because we happen to find them plausible, while rejecting others? If all these researchers are looking at about 200 pages of documents, it would be very interesting to perform a comparison to make sure they were all singing from the same sheet music (so to speak). I suspect that Marcel's file was sent to Washington to help with the 1994 AF Roswell report. That would place the file in the hands of James McAndrews, who spent a great deal of time with researchers gatherring his data. But if this is true, I'm not sure why a form letter indicating they were destroyed in 1973 had been used. They also have form letters that simply state that the records are on loan to another agency, but that was not the response I got. As you note, research is never easy, and I'm not certain that all the cards have been placed on the table by those making all the noise. I haven't given up the search, and will post any further information that I obtain. Take care, Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 15 NASA Releases First Version of Online Photo From: NASANews@hq.nasa.gov Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:53:12 -0400 Subject: NASA Releases First Version of Online Photo Brian Dunbar Headquarters, Washington, DC May 15, 1997 (Phone: 202/358-0873) RELEASE: I97-6 NASA RELEASES FIRST VERSION OF ONLINE PHOTO DATABASE A new online collection of NASA photographs and images provides a single point of entry to various photographic databases of six NASA centers. The NASA Image Exchange (NIX) at: http://nix.nasa.gov provides an umbrella over existing photo databases at the centers, providing better access to photos for NASA personnel and the general public. Search capabilities of NIX include simple searches, complex searches, and browse searches (prebuilt searches on a number of preselected topics). NIX also provides tips to users on searching, copyright information, and a comments section. The NIX effort, which was spearheaded by NASA's Scientific and Technical Information Program Office at Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA, is a voluntary association of STI, Public Affairs, Web, photographic, graphic and library personnel from all 10 NASA centers. The STI Program Office is issuing grants to selected NASA centers for the expansion of the capability of NIX. - end -
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 15 Re: MSN UFO Webshow 'debunks' Left at East Gate From: "Diana Hopkins" <DDBH@msn.com> Date: Thu, 15 May 97 15:04:25 UT Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:52:23 -0400 Subject: Re: MSN UFO Webshow 'debunks' Left at East Gate >Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:50:52 -0500 >To: updates@globalserve.net >From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) >Subject: Tonight's MSN UFO Webshow (which) debunks Left at East Gate >Hi Errol, hi All, >The following was forwarded to me for post to the list. >Any mistakes are mine! My OCR software is damn near >leagally blind! <G> >John Velez >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >May 13 1997 >To: UFO UpDates >From: Peter Robbins, co-author of Left at East Gate >Subject; Tonight's MSN UFO Webshow (which) debunks Left at East Gate >I am not on line, but have asked that this statement be posted on tonight's= =20 >MSN >UFO Webshow. I wish the circumstances prompting my remarks were different, >but very much appreciate your taking tile time to read it. 'Peter Robbins,= NY. >Yesterday afternoon a friend faxed me a page from an Internet service, "UFO >Updates Mailing List Archive," noting that the show would be devoted to >debunking Left at Fast Gate, a recently published book on England's 1980 >Bentwaters-Woodbridge UFO incident. As a co-author of that book, I feel= some >brief comment from me is appropriate before the debunking begins. [snip] Date: Thu, 15 May 97 15:04:25 UT From: "Diana Hopkins" <DDBH@msn.com> To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net> Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: MSN UFO Webshow 'debunks' Left at East Gate A) I never requested a copy of your book from the publisher - Hopkins is a= =20 pretty regular name, you might want to check the first name out. Or is this= a=20 touch=E9 for my error with Mr. Randle? B)If you read all updates, you would have seen that I had already recalled= my=20 mistake with Mr. Randles name and had apologized to him publicly and pointed= =20 out which websites <message boards> had mistakenly accredited him with your= =20 book - these sites are where I found the information. More proof that you= are=20 in error in stating that I received a copy from your publisher. C)I'm so glad you found this an opportunity to plug your book more. Silly= me=20 - I guess that was the whole point of this, huh? The archives from the Halt interview will be available within a few weeks'= =20 time, btw.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 15 Re: UFO crash in Puerto Rico From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:56:07 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 16:36:09 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO crash in Puerto Rico Hi Errol, hi All, I just got this response from Francisco Lopez re: the UFO crash in Puerto Rico. Because it has yet to be translated into english I thought I'd post the most relevant part of it for the list members. John Velez ================================================ Translations will be preceeded by (*) JV ================================================ Referente a: Estrellamiento de OVNI en Lajas, Puerto Rico. *In reference to: Crash of UFO in the town of Lajas, Puerto Rico Texto: A toda la comunidad local e tinternacional. *to the entire local and international community. Jorge Martin, Director del Centro de Investigaciones Cientificas de Ovnistica y lo Paranormal de Puerto Rico, y editor de la revista Evidencia OVNI, alerta por este medio que las informaciones sobre el alegado estrellamiento de un OVNI en el sector de la Sierra Bermeja, en Lajas, Puerto Rico, en la noche del 5 de mayo de 1997 son enteramente falsas y parten de un montaje hecho por individuos irresponsables. *George Martin, Director of the Center for Scientific Study of UFO's and the Paranormal in Puerto Rico, and editor of the magazine "UFO Evidence" would like to alert everyone via this medium that the information pertaining to the crash of a UFO in the Sierra Bermeja sector of Lajas, Puerto Rico, on the night of May 15, 1997 is entirely false and part of a hoax perpetrated by irresponsible individuals. (snip) ================================================ Scratch that one folks! Thanx to the investigative work and timely announcement by our compatriots in Puerto Rico, this one was nipped in the bud! Kudo's to all involved in the speedy resolution of this incident. John Velez * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 15 Re: NYC UFO sighting From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:22:46 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 16:31:15 -0400 Subject: Re: NYC UFO sighting Hi Errol, All, For those of you waiting to see the videoclip I got here in the city, here's an update from Tom King. As soon as it's available I'll let everyone know. There will also be a link to the material from the 'IF' website. John Velez ====================================== The OVNI Chapterhouse,... http://personal.netwrx.net/xalium/ufovideo.htm ...has been recently updated with the following: The Russian Space Station MIR, footage STS-37 UFO footage STS-51a UFO footage Mike DeVarennes May 9, hockey puck footage. Ovni Chat Room. In development are the following: The John Velez footage. The Bill Hamilton footage. The Bob Hetsko photographs. The STS-48 "Worm" video. Tom King AZ Dir SKYWATCH INT'L E-Mail xalium@netwrx.net OVNI CHAPTERHOUSE http://personal.netwrx.net/xalium/ufovideo.htm * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 15 Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:11:05 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:57:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? >Date: 08 May 97 15:28:16 EDT >From: Andy Roberts <101322.751@CompuServe.COM> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Debunker Containment Strategy? >>Through such efforts denial and ridicule of the reality of >>UFO/ETs has been effectively maintained for 50 years. >I don't think it is ridicule of the reality of UFOs/ETs so much >as ridicule of the ill-informed people who peddle conspiracy >theories about those they disagree with. The idea of the >reality of an ET origin for UFOs and their occupants >is a perfectly sensible one but the simple fact is that >the *evidence* (there is no proof as yet) doesn't back >up the beliefs. "Conspiricy theory" here It is "believed" that there _IS_ evidence that proves this to be the case BUT that the evidence is being withheld from public scrutiny by various government agencies. _IF_ this where to be true ( I might add here that I believe this ) then the various government agencies would have whatever they need to debunk "our" claims, IE the evidence. After all how often has it been said "show us the evidence". _IF_ "they" do have the evidence. In which case proof will never be forth coming because "they" don't want it to be. In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible. Sean Jones http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 15 Oberg's CSETI news.group Post From: Francisco Lopez <d005734c@dc.seflin.org> Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 16:36:46 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:56:12 -0400 Subject: Oberg's CSETI news.group Post ::: The Oberg Files ::: (c) 1997 by Blue Resonant Human, Ph.D. (Agent BlueBird) In regards to Jim Oberg's startlingly revealing (yet utterly ignored!) usenet posting of last week: Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: OTHER gov't UFO secrets From: jamesoberg@aol.com (JamesOberg) Date: 26 Apr 1997 14:15:43 GMT Open letter to CSETI: I applaud CSETI's efforts to strip away the "government secrets prosecution" barrier to the disclosure of people's stories about UFO experiences and I fully support the call for a government declaration that all legal constraints against disclosure be dissolved. I've always felt that claims of fear of such prosecution as an excuse by people not to "go public" was often merely a gimmick not to have to take responsibility for the authenticity of such stories, since as far as I've been able to tell -- and through OMNI's "Project Open Book" we searched far and wide for examples -- nobody has ever been arrested or charged -- much less convicted and sentenced -- for actually doing so. But don't stop merely with legalizing disclosure of all -- if any -- government secrets about "real UFOs". I believe there is a far more valuable body of "secrets" that will help understand the decades of UFO phenomena that the world has experienced. This deals with government-related activities which directly or indirectly led to public perceptions that UFOs might be real when they weren't. Sometimes these actions were carefully orchestrated in advance, sometimes they were localized impromptu ad hoc damage- limitation tactics. But from my own experience, they seem to have played a tremendous and widely unappreciated role in inciting and enflaming public interests in UFOs while deflecting public attention from real highly-classified government activities. I'm referring to situations where government representatives -- officials, military officers, any employees -- used "UFO" as a convenient camouflage for other official classified activities (such as retrieval of crashed aircraft or nuclear weapons or other objects), or used artificial "UFO stories" (in oral, written, photographic, film, etc.) form as "tracers" in studying the function of security safeguards and personnel psychological responses, or used "UFO" as an excuse (either intended or accidental) to cover-up improper, forbidden, or diplomatically delicate activities (such as aviation incidents involving dangerous accidental or deliberate close passes or intercepts of civilian airliners, or overseas excursions of agents on intelligence missions where deflection of local perceptions was useful, or to conceal from the country of origin the possession of foreign military hardware), or played pranks and jokes on intended or accidental targets, or any other activity that the government -- or any part of it -- wanted to keep hidden, knowing that having it thought of as "UFO-related" would consign it to the never-never- land of myth and nuttiness, thus keeping mainstream media attention to a minimum. And it's worked!! Please include such "UFO secrets" in your list of disclosure demands, and ask that any government personnel involved in the use (or misuse and abuse) of such practices be immune from any government prosecution for the actions which led them to take such measures. Once such immunity is verifiably granted, I have my own list of people who have privately talked to me over the years and who were involved in government activities leading to a number of well-known "UFO cases", which can be released and which can help understand where and how much of today's UFO mythology originated. This is a serious proposal deserving of serious consideration, and promises immensely fruitful results. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Figuring Brother Jim for the consummate team player, we marvelled amongst ourselves at this unexpected midstream change of strategy and could not help but wonder who birthed the Bright Idea to expose the delicate underbelly of The Dark Lords in such a blatant fashion as this! So, deciding to shake the tree a tad, we stuffed a copy of Oberg's refreshingly candid letter into both the mouth of The Eschaton (who immediately circulated it on the Hill) and the beak of his Devious Overlord ("what a strange bird is the Pelican -- it's beak can hold more than it's belly-can") then sat back, amused, to watch the cauldron bubble a bit. Eye of Newt and Tongue of Dan, etc. Now in that our Fine Metaprogramming Friend, CSETI's Dr. Steve, is currently embroiled in a Holy NWO B'hai Jihad of Galactic Proportion, Brother Daniel was absolutely delighted to encounter such a propitious cache-o-timely-intell, thinking to toss the recent Oberg Missive on the Relatively Holy Fires which are already beginning to brew in certain Secrecy Oversight Hearings out D.C. way. Alas, The Evil Government hath once again prevailed for a subsequent call to Mr. Oberg revealed not the Righteously Indignant and Noble Seeker of Truth we had hoped, but rather an intimidated and downright terrified individual who had apparently been pushed around a bit by The Bully which calls itself our Deare Uncle Samuel. In fact, Mr. Oberg stated that he did not want his family involved in any of this and that he was now abandoning the field of UFOlogy altogether! A most interesting turn of events, no? So where does this leave us? The sp00ks can still hide many of their heinous and insidious black-ops human experimentation projeckts beneath the veil of the Modern Urban Myth which we all lovingly refer to as Club UFOlogy whilst Brother James will have trouble showing his face around these parts without some elaborate form of retraction-flavoured sophistry. Though many of the True Blue UFO Believers will no doubt rejoice over this perceived "victory" as yet another of their Hegelian counterparts bites the dust, we cannot but perceive this as a depressing setback in terms of shedding much needed light into some of the darker recesses of the taxpayer-funded eschatological machine. ::: sigh ::: In any event, for those who psuspect something far less extraterrestrial than "rectum-coring reticulan reptoids" from outer space, we have included some related materials which you will no doubt find of great interest: 1) A recently declassified (FOIA) and highly relevant CIA document. 2) A copy of the infamous Pentacle Memorandum (with poignant commentary by our Beloved Jacques Vallee) 3) Oberg's bio (as of 94-08-17) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [dated 1952] Central Intelligence Agency Washington 25, D.C. Office of the Director Memorandum to: Director, Psychological Strategy Board Subject: Flying Saucers 1. I am today transmitting to the National Security Council a proposal (TAB A) in which it is concluded that the problems connected with unidentified flying objects appear to have implications for psychological warfare as well as for intelligence and operations. 2. The background for this view is presented in some detail in TAB B. 3. I suggest that we discuss as an early board meeting the possible offensive or defensive utilization of these phenomena for psychological warfare purposes. Walter B. Smith Director Enclosure [Note: for additional information regarding this controversial document, contact Technology 1999, 3739 8th Ave, Suite One, San Diego, CA 92103-4327, (888) 223-1999 -B:.B:.] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- THE PENTACLE MEMORANDUM A controversial memorandum from 1953 may shed new light on the UFO phenomenon. - - - - - January 9, 1953 SECRET SECURITY INFORMATION G-1579-4 cc: B.D. Thomas H.C. Cross / A.D. Westerman L.R. Jackson W.T. Reid P.J. Rieppal V.W. Ellsey / R.J. Lund Files Extra [handwritten] Mr. Miles E. Coll Box 9575 Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio Attention Capt. Edward J. Ruppelt Dear Mr. Coll: This letter concerns a preliminary recommendation to ATIC on future methods of handling the problem of unidentified aerial objects. This recommendation is based on our experience to date in analyzing several thousands of reports on this subject. We regard the recommendation as preliminary because our analysis is not yet complete, and we are not able to document it where we feel it should be supported by facts from the analysis. We are making this recommendation prematurely because of a CIA- sponsored meeting of a scientific panel, meeting in Washington, D.C., January 14, 15, and 16, 1953, to consider the problem of "flying saucers". The CIA-sponsored meeting is being hold subsequent to a meeting of CIA, ATIC, and our representatives held at ATIC on December 12, 1952. At the December 12 meeting our representatives strongly recommended that a scientific panel not be set up until the results of our analysis of the sighting- reports collected by ATIC were available. Since a meeting of the panel is now definitely scheduled we feel that agreement between Project Stork and ATIC should be reached as to what can and what cannot be discussed at the meeting in Washington on January 14-16 concerning our preliminary recommendation to ATIC. Experience to date on our study of unidentified flying objects shows that there is a distinct lack of reliable data with which to work. Even the best-documented reports are frequently lacking in critical information that makes it impossible to arrive at a possible identification, i.e. even in a well-documented report there is always an element of doubt about the data, either because the observer had no means of getting the required data, or was not prepared to utilize the means at his disposal. Therefore, we recommend that a controlled experiment be set up by which reliable physical data can be obtained. A tentative preliminary plan by which the experiment could be designed and carried out is discussed in the following paragraphs. Based on our experience so far, it is expected that certain conclusions will be reached as a result of our analysis which will make obvious the need for an effort to obtain reliable data from competent observers using the [...unreadable...] necessary equipment. Until more reliable data are available, no positive answers to the problem will be possible. We expect that our analysis will show that certain areas in the United States have had an abnormally high number of reported incidents of unidentified flying objects. Assuming that, from our analysis, several definite areas productive of reports can be selected, we recommend that one or two of theses areas be set up as experimental areas. This area, or areas, should have observation posts with complete visual skywatch, with radar and photographic coverage, plus all other instruments necessary or helpful in obtaining positive and reliable data on everything in the air over the area. A very complete record of the weather should also be kept during the time of the experiment. Coverage should be so complete that any object in the air could be tracked, and information as to its altitude, velocity, size, shape, color, time of day, etc. could be recorded. All balloon releases or known balloon paths, aircraft flights, and flights of rockets in the test area should be known to those in charge of the experiment. Many different types of aerial activity should be secretly and purposefully scheduled within the area. We recognize that this proposed experiment would amount to a large- scale military maneuver, or operation, and that it would require extensive preparation and fine coordination, plus maximum security. Although it would be a major operation, and expensive, there are many extra benefits to be derived besides the data on unidentified aerial objects. The question of just what would be accomplished by the proposed experiment occurs. Just how could the problem of these unidentified objects be solved? From this test area, during the time of the experiment, it can be assumed that there would be a steady flow of reports from ordinary civilian observers, in addition to those by military or other official observers. It should be possible by such a controlled experiment to prove the identity of all objects reported, or to determine positively that there were objects present of unknown identity. Any hoaxes under a set-up such as this could almost certainly be exposed, perhaps not publicly, but at least to the military. In addition, by having resulting data from the controlled experiment, reports for the last five years could be re-evaluated, in the light of similar but positive information. This should make possible reasonably certain conclusions concerning the importance of the problem of "flying saucers". Results of an experiment such as described could assist the Air Force to determine how much attention to pay to future situations when, as in the past summer, there were thousands of sightings reported. In the future, then, the Air Force should be able to make positive statements, reassuring to the public, and to the effect that everything is well under control. Very truly yours, [unsigned] H.C. Cross - - - - - [following is a related response from Jacques Vallee] 27 April 1993 Barry Greenwood JUST CAUSE Dear Barry: Thank you for sending me your thoughtful commentary about the Pentacle document. I do agree with you on one point: the significance of the memo comes, in part, from what it does not say. In particular, it makes no reference to any recovered UFO hardware, at Roswell or elsewhere, or to alien bodies. The greater significance of what it does say will slowly emerge in coming years as the overall implications come to light. Let me draw your attention to three specific points. 1. Project Twinkle and other observational efforts by the military, which you mention in an effort to show that Pentacle was only dusting off an old idea, were purely passive projects. In sharp contrast the Pentacle proposal goes far beyond anything mentioned before. It daringly states that "many different types of aerial activity should be SECRETLY AND PURPOSEFULLY SCHEDULED WITHIN THE AREA (my emphasis)." It is difficult to be more clear. We are not talking simply about setting up observing stations and cameras. We are talking about large-scale, covert simulation of UFO waves under military control. 2. The greatest implication, which is perhaps not obvious on first reading but which amounts to a scandal of major proportion in the eyes of any scientist, has to do with the outright manipulation of the Robertson panel. Here is a special meeting of the five most eminent scientists in the land, assembled by the government to discuss a matter of national security. Not only are they not made aware of all the data, but another group has already decided "what can and cannot be discussed (Pentacle's own words!)" when they meet. Dr. Hynek categorically stated to me that the panel was not briefed about the Pentacle proposals. 3. Revelation of this document may seem irrelevant to Just Cause, but its explosive nature wasn't lost on Battelle. As I noted in Forbidden Science, and as Fred Beckman vividly recalls to this day, the Project Stork team reacted with fury when Hynek went back to Battelle in 1967, demanding to know the truth. The man I have called Pentacle snatched his notes away and told him in no uncertain terms that the contents of the memo were not to be discussed, under any circumstances. [In _Forbidden Science_, Vallee notes in June of 1967 "What these people were recommending was nothing less than a carefully calibrated and monitored simulation of an entire UFO wave" and asks "For whom did 'Pentacle' work? Did the proposed experiment take place? Who were these people who calmly sat around the table with the CIA and the Air Force and who, many years before us, understood the need to acquire second-generation data?" And of the insights of his friend Dr. Hynek, he states "Hynek had once assured me that if it ever turned out that a secret study had been conducted, the American public would raise an unbelievable stink against the military and intelligence communities. It would be an outrage, he said, an insult to the whole country, not to mention a violation of the most cherished principles of American democracy." (p. 285) Elsewhere, regarding the Pentacle document he remarks "It is hard to excuse the betrayal of science that took place when the intelligence community decided to bar the Robertson Panel from direct access to the knowledge Pentacle and his group had obtained." while of Hynek, he laments "Hynek was a quiet man, who disliked confrontation and scandal, feared authority and was in awe of secrecy. He once told me plainly that 'he would not look under the bed even if he knew for certain that something was hidden there.'" (pp. 425-426) -B:.B:.] I find it odd that a group that claims to be interested in the historical study of our field, as Just Cause does, should fail to see the significance of the Pentacle Memo, which is an authentic document, when so much time, money and ink have been devoted over the last several years to an in-depth analysis of the MJ-12 papers, which were faked. Perhaps the Pentacle memo only proves that scientific studies of UFOs (and even their classified components) have been manipulated since the fifties. But it also suggests several avenues of research which are vital to the future of this field: why were Pentacle's proposals kept from the panel? Were his plans for a secret simulation of UFO waves implemented? If so, when, where and how? What was discovered as a result? Are these simulations still going on? I invite your group to turn its investigative resources and its analytical talent to this important task. In reading Forbidden Science, you should recognize that the book is a Diary, no, an analytical report or a memoir. Therefore many important inferences, many relevant details, can only be found by reading between the lines. Your preliminary analysis of the Pentacle memo is not unfair, but it is somewhat simplistic, and it takes it out of context. I invite you to go back for a second, closer reading. /s/ Jacques Vallee cc: Fred Beckman - - - - - Excerpt from: Encounter Chronicles, Journal of Scientific Intelligence Issue #16, Vol. 4, No. 4, July-August 1996 Dr. Rod Lewis, Editor/Publisher 10878 Westheimer #293, Houston, TX 77042 forbsci@aol.com (713) 558-5342 (BBS) (713) 558-1630 (Voicemail) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Subj: Re: "THE" James Oberg? Date: 94-08-17 07:20:07 EDT From: JamesOberg To: Density 4 Professional Profile James E. Oberg Address: Rt 2 Box 350, Dickinson, TX 77539 FAX or phone: 713-337-2838 Born Nov. 7, 1944, NYC, NY. Married 1969, two sons (b. 1977, 1984). SSN xxx-xx-xxxx US Passport # Xxxxxx52, expires 3/3/02, issued in Marseilles, France on March 3, 1992 Education: B.A.-- mathematics (summa cum laude, Phi Beta Kappa), Ohio Wesleyan University, 1966, departmental honors in math (orbital rendezvous), honors in Russian M.S. (plus additional Ph.D. coursework), Applied Mathematics (Astrodynamics), Northwestern University, 1969 M.S. Computing Sciences (compiler design), University of New Mexico, 1972. USAF Squadron Officer School / Command and Staff College / DoD Computer Institute faculty Profession: Manned Spaceflight Operations Specialist (Past, Present, and Future) Avocation: Expert in Russian Space Technology, Operations, History, and Policy Sample Specialties: Space Station Habitability / Role of Man-in-Space / Technology Transfer Vulnerabilities/Opportunities Space Hardware and Facilities Assessment / Accurate Policy Options Analysis Problems of high-tech complex systems control center operations and decision-making International Cooperation & Competition / "Lessons Learned" Overviews Russian military/civil aerospace operations, accidents, historical controversies Divergent, Innovative Alternative Approaches to Complex Technical Problems Technological Defenses Against Biosphere Threats ("Planetary Engineering") Recent consultees on Soviet/Russian spaceflight include: NASA -- (Johnson Space Center, NASA Headquarters, Marshall Spaceflight Center and JPL) Rockwell Space Operations Company / National Air and Space Museum Fairchild Space Company (Germantown, MD) / TRW Corporation (Redondo Beach) Hamilton Standard / McDonnell Douglas Space Station Office (Washington, DC) Office of Technology Assessment (OTA) / Government Accounting Office (GAO) National Science Foundation / U.S. Army Engineering Center (Fort Leonard Wood, MO) Association of Space Explorers / United States Information Agency / Voice of America United Nations Outer Space Affairs Division / British Interplanetary Society / RAND Corporation International Space Hall of Fame (Alamogordo) / Space Commerce Corporation (Houston) Sotheby's of New York / George Marshall Institute (Washington,DC) / Boston Museum of Science Teledyne Brown Engineering (Colorado Springs) / U.S. Library of Congress Federal Research Division Science Applications International Corporation (New York City) / AT&T Bell Labs (Whippany, NJ) CBS News (including 60 Minutes, CBS Evening News, Morning News) ABC News (including Evening News, Nightline, Good Morning America) NBC News (including Evening News) / CNN News (including News, Crossfire) Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty / BBC / CBC / NPR "As It Happens" PBS NOVA Russian space miniseries "The Russian Right Stuff" (WGBH) Most major U.S. newspapers, newsmagazines, wire services, and radio networks Publications: Author of more than 400 popular magazine articles on spaceflight around the world, and of eight books including Red Star in Orbit (Random House), Pioneering Space (McGraw-Hill), Mission to Mars (New American Library), and, most recently, Uncovering Soviet Disasters (Random House). Books in preparation on "Space Age Folklore", "Russian Secrets", "Future of the Russian Space Program", and "Climate Engineering on Earth". Also, leading speaker and commentator on Russian space affairs. Languages: Eloquent English, good Russian and French, medium German, Latin. Professional Honors: American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, National Space Society, British Interplanetary Society, Clear Lake Council of Technical Societies, Russian Academy of Cosmonautics Nov 12, 1993 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Obscuris Vera Involvens; -Blue Resonant Human, Ph.D., etc. http:/www.brotherblue.org/ "No, no, no -- not you, m'lord, the other m'lord, m'lord."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 16 Message from Jesse Marcel Jr. From: KAnder6444@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:38:03 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:27:33 -0400 Subject: Message from Jesse Marcel Jr. Hi Errol and all, I do want to say I've enjoyed the banter going on. Although sometimes it appears to be very nasty, hopefully everyone involved hasn't taken it too personal. Its always nice to see all the perspective side of things. One has to keep an open mind. To keep things fair, I do, however have a message I would like to relay from Jesse Marcel Jr.: "I have seen at least a portion of the 200 pages that are now circulating around. Even though this is a copy, it does look authentic, I can recognize my dads signature etc, and also recognize information that only our family would have known. I think the only question about these copies is that completness of them. I have my doubts that the 200 pages are complete and a lot of vital information is missing. It is a bit disgusting to note...(snip)...that are so eager to kill the Roswell story are not above defaming my dad even to the point of totally fabricating situations." I am anxiously waiting for these Roswell books to come out!!! Kathleen Andersen State Section Director - Seattle - Mufon U.S. Coordinator for Brisbane 97'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 16 Oberg's CSETI news.group Post From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:29:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:24:40 -0400 Subject: Oberg's CSETI news.group Post > Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 16:36:46 -0400 (EDT) > From: Francisco Lopez <d005734c@dc.seflin.org> > Subject: ::: The Oberg Files ::: > ::: The Oberg Files ::: > (c) 1997 by Blue Resonant Human, Ph.D. (Agent BlueBird) > In regards to Jim Oberg's startlingly revealing (yet utterly ignored!) > usenet posting of last week: < snip > Yes noted but ignored, yawn! Nothing new here that anyone reading in this field hasn't known for years, besides all those declassified documents are old news. Moreover, Oberg speaks OFFICIALLY FOR NO ONE. He is totally deniable. Typical debunker positioning. His old outdated resume is useless and misleading. Post his verifiable military history, list the positions he held in the companies and proprietaries he has worked for, clearances held and W-2s, then there might be something to discuss, IF one is bored. > -Blue Resonant Human, Ph.D., etc. > http://www.brotherblue.org/ > "No, no, no -- not you, m'lord, the other m'lord, m'lord." Just a thought, perhaps if you dropped this cartoonish blue obscurantism you would be taken more seriously, particularly on this list; this isn't the Usenet. Gary Alevy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 16 Odyssey Web Site From: "Steven J. Powell" <sjpowell@access.digex.net> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:41:32 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:33:03 -0400 Subject: Odyssey Web Site The Odyssey Web Site is back online, permanently this time. http://CC636243-A.twsn1.md.home.com Thanks, take care. John. ([]][][][][][][][][][][][][][]) [ ] [ sjpowell@access.digex.net ] [ ] ([]][][][][][][][][][][][][][]) http://CC636243-A.twsn1.md.home.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 16 Re: Rutkowski & The Flood of The Century From: pwedel <pwedel@neptune.on.ca> Date: Thu, 15 May 97 21:28:10 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:28:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Rutkowski & The Flood of The Century >Chris Rutkowsi writes: >It appears that Manitoba will become the Zuider Zee of Canada, and I >can see some healthier respect for nature from now on. Dear Chris, Speaking as a fellow Canadian and a canoeist who has healthy respect for windy lakes and the power of nature...I hear you. Glad to hear you and your family are safe and well. You've earned a stiff drink. Best regards, Paul. Paul (Twigman) Wedel !-:-) There are many paths through the forest, they all lead to the other side.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 16 Fund for UFO Research Web Page From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:49:57 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:48:20 -0400 Subject: Fund for UFO Research Web Page Hello Errol Greetings, After a month of computer problems, I seem to be able to post again. I don't recall seeing any announcement that Fund for UFO Research has entered cyberspace at: http://www.fufor.org It is worth a gander. Now that it is established more updated information will soon follow. Jerome Clark's new contribution SPACEMEN, DEMONS & CONSPRIACIES: THE EVOLUTION OF UFO HYPOTHESES just received. Mine is a review copy, but it should soon be available from the FUFOR soon. Jan Aldrich Project 1947
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 16 Orillia, Ontario or there abouts From: UFO Joe Daniels <ufojoe@cron-2.mco.on.ca> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:14:04 -0400 Subject: Orillia, Ontario or there abouts I just received the following message about a UFO book and sighting in Ontario during 1973. Any information would be very helpful. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm trying to find out some information concerning a UFO sighting and contact that happened back in the summer of 1973. The individual wrote a book about it and it was called my UFO adventures by "buzz" Andrews. The individual claimed to be an engineer, while somewhere up north around Orillia, Gravenhurst, not to far from Toronto, he spotted a UFO. The thing followed him home to Toronto and subsquently the aliens make contact with this fellow and the book goes on and on about a war that is on going, un beknownst to us, within the alien community. I picked this book up and looked through it in a New age book store in Vancouver years ago and never saw or heard anything about it since. It really is a strange book and totally unbelieveable, except for one thing. I saw the UFO,s that he described in Toronto around the Keele and Lawrence area on July 3, 1973, be tween 12:00 am and 7:00 pm. The sightings were not reported in the media. But in the fall between Sept to Nov, that same year, these UFO's were sighted again at the Pickering power plant and reported in the Toronto Star. I'm finally on the net and have an opportunity to find out more about this One of the objects sat in the sky like a large floating yellowish diamond rotating slowly the cut angles of the object constantly flucuating. There were more craft that could only be seen because of the lights that were mounted on them. Two of them seemed like flying boxes because of the way the lights sat on them, like a string of lights around a box, one had lights going around it diagonally like the x on an american confederate flag, the other UFO,s just had a head light and floated around the neighbourhood silently. I observed these things at they were stationary and then they flashed across the sky and came to an instant stop, again it was all done soundlessly. When it became light I observed that the object that looked like a floating diamond in the sky no longer looked that way. In the light it looked like a giant cylinder one end towards the ground with a slight tilt so that I could see the length of it but of course I can't give you an estimate on its length or its height. Don't ask me why no one else saw it in the center of North York. I'm in Taiwan now and I am trying to find out information about this fellow or these sightings that happened that year. He may have something going on in Collingwood I have no idea. I trying to findout and would appreciate any info you can share. Sincerely Dan Fedorchuk --------------------------------------------------------------------------- .--------------------------------------------. | From UFO Joe Daniels http://cron-2.mco.net | | 37122-769 Southdale Rd. London, ON N6E-3B3 | | An active member of CUFORN & MUFON Ontario | `--------------------------------------------'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 16 Question concerning Listowel, Ontario From: UFO Joe Daniels <ufojoe@cron-2.mco.on.ca> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:15:15 -0400 Subject: Question concerning Listowel, Ontario Any information you have about the following sighting would be greatly appreciated. All I have is a few sightings in that area on the night of March 30, 1966. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dear Joe; I was curious to know if you might happen to have any records of any sightings in or near by Listowel (spelling?) between 1965 and 1971? If so, I wondered if you could let me know the specifics. Thanks for your time! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .--------------------------------------------. | From UFO Joe Daniels http://cron-2.mco.net | | 37122-769 Southdale Rd. London, ON N6E-3B3 | | An active member of CUFORN & MUFON Ontario | `--------------------------------------------'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 16 RE: Fund for UFO Research Web Page From: grice@foto.infi.net (gary rice) Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:55:16 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:32:39 -0400 Subject: RE: Fund for UFO Research Web Page >Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:49:57 -0700 >From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) >To: errol@canadamail.com >Subject: Fund for UFO Research Web Page > After a month of computer problems, I seem to be able to >post again. I don't recall seeing any announcement that >Fund for UFO Research has entered cyberspace at: > http://www.fufor.org > It is worth a gander. Now that it is established more updated >information will soon follow. Jerome Clark's new contribution >SPACEMEN, DEMONS & CONSPRIACIES: THE EVOLUTION OF UFO HYPOTHESES >just received. Mine is a review copy, but it should soon be >available from the FUFOR soon. how can i get a copy of this report? thanks u Gary Rice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GSR
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 16 Re: Other peoples arguments/junk mail From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> Date: 16 May 97 14:50:57 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:47:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Other peoples arguments/junk mail >From: EdKomarek@aol.com >Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 16:04:06 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Other peoples arguments/junk mail Ed, >The nortorious CSICOP organization is not a scientific >organization as it claims. Completely, 100%, over and above the call of duty correct. Neither is CSETI, MUFON, BUFORA or any other organisation involved in the research of UFOs, past, present and I very much doubt, future. Y'see, the problem is with every group is that organisation costs in terms of building and fostering the network, nurturing the links and promoting a viewpoint that could foster a change in the paradigm and _allow_ mainstream science to look at the non-falsifiable UFO [lit.] as something other than the preserve of the guys with the placards at the top of a tall building that get zapped in the opening minutes (tm). CSICOP suffers from the same problems in that elements of the organisation have problems with reality, even with the science they promote, to the extent where one delegate started to talk about discredited psychological techniques from the forties as _fact_. All organisations tend to suffer from this, and I've seen it happen a million times before, however it looks like fear when the snake rears at the mongoose. >One very strong >clue is the publication of Korff's book by Promethius Books. What! Prometheus publishes 'debunker' books?! >This tough >political fight is going to go right up to hearings in Congress. <deadpan> I can't wait. </deadpan> James A Diss ---------------------- HEALTH WARNING: Care Should Be Taken When Lifting This Product, Since Its Mass, and Thus Its Weight, Is Dependent on Its Velocity Relative to the User. --------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 16 Re: 'Project Mogul' - let's get it right! From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> Date: 16 May 97 14:50:53 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:48:28 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Project Mogul' - let's get it right! >Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 14:11:52 -0500 (CDT) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: 'Project Mogul' - let's get it right! Dennis wrote: >The issue is this: The original press release said something to >the effect that a relatively "intact" flying disc had been towed >into his barn by a local rancher. This seems to be traceable to Lydia Sleppy's <sp?> comments passed on from Johnny McBoyle, the DJ from the spookily appropriate KLAS. Although there is a huge sort of 'security cordon' affair connected with this, I'd be interested to know if Ms Sleppy exists. I don't know whether the original newspaper article mentions it but then that's become mostly a sideline produced for the benefit of the banner headline rather than source data. I beleive that the first rumours circulated were to the effect that Brazel towed something into his cow shelter, but given subsequent events, I can't see that being true at all. Brazel comments elsewhere that he was puzzled by all the fuss. >enough to cover a debris field 200 yards wide -- and in such >small pieces? >Doesn't sound like ET titanium to me. I've always been puzzled by the references to denting with a hammer/crumpling and returning back to shape. Or the relatively innocuous black metal box that Cavitt retrieved. >"UFO 1947-1997: Fifty Years of Flying Saucers," If I say I think it's rather good, would you be nice about a forthcoming book I'm producing on ferrets and their loveable habits? If not, I consider it a nice treatment of the field in general. James A Diss ---------------------- HEALTH WARNING: Care Should Be Taken When Lifting This Product, Since Its Mass, and Thus Its Weight, Is Dependent on Its Velocity Relative to the User. --------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 16 Re: MIB? From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> Date: 16 May 97 14:50:55 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:46:41 -0400 Subject: Re: MIB? >Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 09:58:54 +1000 >From: Stuart Livesey <livesey@trump.net.au> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: men in black >Is it just my imagination or are reports of MIB encounters >becoming fewer? I've been reliably informed that brown is this season's black, so a concerted effort to look for 'men in brown' appears to be in order. On the bright side, the acronym doesn't need changing until green comes into fashion. James A Diss ---------------------- HEALTH WARNING: Care Should Be Taken When Lifting This Product, Since Its Mass, and Thus Its Weight, Is Dependent on Its Velocity Relative to the User. --------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 16 Re: Rutkowski & The Flood of The Century From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:47:30 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:51:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Rutkowski & The Flood of The Century > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Rutkowski & The Flood of The Century > Date: Thu, 15 May 97 21:28:10 -0400 > From: pwedel <pwedel@neptune.on.ca> > To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net> > >Chris Rutkowsi writes: > >It appears that Manitoba will become the Zuider Zee of Canada, and I > >can see some healthier respect for nature from now on. > Speaking as a fellow Canadian and a canoeist who has healthy respect > for windy lakes and the power of nature...I hear you. > Glad to hear you and your family are safe and well. You've earned a > stiff drink. I'll take that drink anytime! (Flood or no flood) It's amazing to me that the water has dropped so quickly. I just came back from the Forks (where it really *is* luxurious to sit on the patio and sip capuccino whilst overlooking the river), and the level has dropped dramatically since just last weekend. And, where a "new lake" existed because of an overflowed stream just 100 yards from my home, there is now a nearly-dry arroyo. Weird. BTW, a narrative of my trip inside flooded St. Norbert has appeared, with photos, at: http://www.umanitoba.ca/news/flood97/ under "Images" and the "photo album." The story is titled "High Water." But, to make this relevant to this ListServ, I'll mention one little thing, if only to annoy Paul ... Persinger's paper in which he connected the Carman UFO flap of 1975-76 in Manitoba with a small flood around that time can be looked upon with less confidence now, IMHO. In the same area, we just are mopping up with a *much* greater flood, and there were hardly any UFOs to speak of in Manitoba this spring. Hmmm.... Other UFO-related tidbit: This Tuesday marks the 30th anniversary of the noted Falcon Lake CE2. It has been only in the past five or six years that it's received much attention, with spots on Unsolved Mysteries and the Unexplained. It's also interesting that two recent UFO books have appeared in the past year that devote entire chapters to this case. The first, by Roy Craig of the USAF-sponsored Condon Committee, suggested it was a hoax. The second, by Palmiro Campagna of the National Research Council and relying upon the official government and military investigation files, says it was a "secret" military aircraft but concedes that there's no other record of such a craft in production or testing! Now, who do you believe? ;) -- Chris Rutkowski - rutkows@cc.umanitoba.ca (and now, also: Chris.Rutkowski@UMAlumni.mb.ca) University of Manitoba - Winnipeg, Canada
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 16 'Alien Autopsy' Problems - According to Korff From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 04:45:12 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:27:01 -0400 Subject: 'Alien Autopsy' Problems - According to Korff Dear Colleagues, In Kal Korff's new book 'The Roswell UFO Crash - What They Don't Want You To Know' he devotes one chapter entirely to the 'alien autopsy' film. It probably will not surprise you that Korff is adamant that the film is a hoax. Korff comes to this conclusion on three main areas. These are: Medical. Photographic. Special Effects. What I would like to do is to ask those that are suitably qualified in these three areas to comment on Korff's information which I will outline below. When replying I would appreciate it if you could give some indication of your area os speciality and your qualifications for commenting on the area in question. Kal Korff's problems with the alien autopsy film are: PHOTOGRAPHIC: According To Korff the camera allegedly used to film the AA film (a Bell & Howell Filmo 70 Model) is incorrect and a more modern piece of equipment was used. I quote from his book " When a person films something with this particular model and then stops and starts again, the first few frames are over-exposed while the spring loaded mechanism gets going. As a result, a white 'hot flash' area will saturate the first few frames and this effect is visible both to the naked eye and certainly through frame-by-frame examination. Despite this unavoidable fact, it is interesting to note that Santilli's alien autopsy film displays no such hot flashes. In other words, where it is obvious that the camera had to be stopped and started again (such as when angles change), the resulting hot flash which should be present is not. This is very incriminating evidence that contrary to what Santilli cliams, the camera used to fuilm the autopsy footage was not a Bell & Howell Filmo 70 model, but rather a more modern one. While advocates of the authenticity of the alien autopsy footage will argue that hot flashes do indeed appear in the Santilli Roswell video that he directly markets (which was released after the Fox special originally aired), this is not true. Indeed, a careful examination of these purported 'hot flashes' in Santilli's video reveals that they are created digitally, and are not real. This can be easily proven by the fact that the light moves from left to right in every 'hor flash' instance, a sure sign that a special effects filter was used. By comparison, real hot flashes generated by spring coiled mechanisms produce much more random lighting spots a vary widely. In addition to this, a frame-by-frame examination shows more that 22 instances of 'jump' cutting, sequences which suddenly start and stop. Because none of these have hot flashes either, the film has been either edited or a more modern camera than the Filmo 70 was used. THis means that the integrity of the film is suspect, since it has obviously been manipulated by either Santilli or someone else". Another problem pointed out by Korff is the film canister labels released by Santilli. The labels depict the seal of the Department of Defense which was not in existence in June/July of l947. These labels, according to Korff, also state that an '85 filter' was used but such filters were used for colour film and not black and white. MEDICAL: Korff also inicates a number of problems with the medical procedures of the actualk autopsy itself, I quote: " The first obvious point has to do with the way the scissors are being held by the alleged pathologist. In real autopsies, the scissors are held in one's hand with the thumb and middle finger> The index finger is usd to steady the scissors. However, as fig 21 shows (still from AA film), in the alien autopsy film, the 'pathologist' is holding the scissors the wrong way - as if he's cutting a piece of paper, using the thumb and index finger to hold them. This is laughable. Another problem with the autopsy procedure is that according to the clock on the wall, which the 'cameraman' makes a point to repeatedly show, the entire dissection of the alien took roughly two and a half hours. This is a remarkably short period of time considering the fact that we're supposedly dealing with an extraterrestrial here. One would assume that a real autopsy of an alien would take weeks, if not months. It would be a one-time historic opportunity, one that would not be rushed or hurried. In a real autopsy, the body is always placed on a small block that arches the back and extends the chest upward. This is done to provide easier access to the chest cavity and to make any cuts that are needed. However, in the alien autopsy film, the alien lies flat on the table, with no block placed under it. Imagine this, the most important autopsy ever conducted, and the 'specialists' don't follow even the most basic of procedures: They can't hold their instruments correctly and they don't elevate the corpse! There are problems regarding the body itself. For example, the creature exhibits a strong, stocky, muscular physique. Yet when the 'doctors' cut it open, its internal organs are just sitting in the body as if they are dumplings floating in a bowl of chicken soup ! In addition, once the doctors remove the aliens internal organs, they place the organs into metal pans. In reality, to avoid potential contamination, internal organs are always placed in glass jars. This is a fact that any first year medical student would know. Another problem occurs when the 'pathologist' cuts open the alien. The camera is perfectly in focus (whereas in every other portion of the autopsy where minute details might be seen the camera is conveniently out of focus) and the 'creature' bleeds easily. THis is highly unlikely. When living things that have blood in them die, gravity takes over and causes all fluids to sink to the lowest point in the body. This is basic physics. However, in the alien autopsy film, the creature 'bleeds' as if it were still alive. Yet according to the 'cameraman' the alien has been dead for many days!" SPECIAL EFFECTS: Again I will quote directly from Korff's book: " There are other problems, only one more of which will be discussed hee. In the scene where the brain is removed, one of the doctors holds the head of the alien still while this procedure is taking place. After removal, the head snaps back, just like one would expect a latex or special effects dummy to do!" Korff does point out other problems with the AA film many, if not most of which have been dealt with elesewhere and certainlt in BEYOND ROSWELL. I would therefore ask those of you with qualifications in the above three fields to offer your professional opinions/comments on what Mr. Korff sees as problems with the alien autopsy film. I would appreciate it greatly if you could pass this onto others for comments also. Yours Sincerely, Philip Mantle. E-mail: el51@dial.pipex.com. 16.5.97.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 16 Re: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> Date: 16 May 97 17:05:45 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:28:14 -0400 Subject: Re: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! >Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:48:35 +0200 (MET DST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! >But Kal, Confuscious is also saying: "If people only >concern themselves with myths" - i.e. Meier, Roswell - >"one must ask himself why". The same reason that consumer's groups exist, from a personal standpoint. Occasionally someone has to point out that the emperor is, indeed, naked. James A Diss ---------------------- HEALTH WARNING: Care Should Be Taken When Lifting This Product, Since Its Mass, and Thus Its Weight, Is Dependent on Its Velocity Relative to the User. --------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 16 Re: Spacemen, Demons, & Conspiracies From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:03:10 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 19:25:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Spacemen, Demons, & Conspiracies Several people have asked me about the new Jerome Clark monogram, SPACEMEN, DEMONS, & CONSPIRACIES: THE EVOLUTION OF UFO HYPOTHESES. Richard Hall told me it is not quite ready for sale yet. There will be an announcement on the Fund for UFO Research web site http://www.fufor.org next week with ordering information. There is also a new mailing going out in about a week: FUFOR P. O. Box 277 Mount Rainier, MD 20712 The Fund will also add Ed Stewart's important Mutual UFO Network's MUFON JOURNAL & SKYLOOK 1967-1996: AN INDEX to it publication list. This subject, author and volume index is a must for those who want to find important articles on the wide scope of material covered over the years in the MUFON Journal, Skylook and Symposia through 1996. Long running series like Louis Farish's "In Other's Words" and Robert Gribble's "Looking Back" are completely indexed and "sub-indexed." All the "Looking Back" events are sub-indexed into EM, Daylight Disc, CE, etc. The price for this index is the same as Ed Steward "Flying Saucer Review Index." Jan Aldrich
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 16 Mogul Balloons & Foil-like Material From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:03:57 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:27:21 -0400 Subject: Mogul Balloons & Foil-like Material As we know, many of the people who handled debris from the Brazel ranch, commented on the unusual "metal foil" and claimed the wreckage was unquestionably not from a weather balloon. Judging from some of the descriptions of the foil-like material, it's understandable why they considered the debris to be from another source, or perhaps in some cases from another planet! If the debris was indeed from a Mogul balloon and these witnesses are to be vindicated, the material must have formed part of the balloon construction, yet have been material which they would not be familiar with. I can't see this has been explained yet. If it has, what is the answer - what was this thin, dull, pliable, crease-resistant, foil-like material which had almost plastic properties and was so tough? James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Re: 'Alien Autopsy' Problems - According to Korff From: RobIrving@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:27:48 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:11:27 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Alien Autopsy' Problems - According to Korff > Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 04:45:12 +0000 > From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: ALIEN AUTOPSY-PROBLEMS WITH IT ACCORDING TO KAL KORFF. > Dear Colleagues, <snip> > Korff does point out other problems with the AA film many, if not most of > which have been dealt with elesewhere and certainlt in BEYOND > ROSWELL. certainlt elesewhere, anyway. C'mon Philip, with regard to information on the SUE footage, to suggest that your book delves any deeper than two year-old superficialities is misleading. For example, Korff mentions problems with the film can label seals, and you say you've dealt with that. How have you dealt with that? Rob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 The disappearing regiment in WWI From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 01:07:20 -0400 Subject: The disappearing regiment in WWI A friend was asking me if I knew where this large-scale abduction event is written up within the UFO literature. I came across it years ago and can't remember now where I saw it. Can someone on the List? It involved British soldiers, as I recall, engaged against Turkish soldiers in WWI. The one group marched into a "cloud," which then lifted up and off. Thanks, Jim Deardorff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 ORTK Report on Phoenix, AZ, City Meeting From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:59:20 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 01:04:51 -0400 Subject: ORTK Report on Phoenix, AZ, City Meeting ORTK confidential report on AZ City Council UFO meeting ORTK Bulletin Editor: I recieved this report from a confidential source this evening and hopefully others will be able to confirm this story. This person is known to me. Sincerely, Ed Komarek ________________________________________________ A local official here in Phoenix asked Airforce officials for an explanation about the so called "Phoenix Lights" seen over Phoenix and parts of Arizona last month. Meanwhile, a computer lab wizard had a team of guys working on a computer model of the sightings. The info gathered from 6 (maybe more, I'm not sure) different video cameras was used to triangulate the size and movements of the craft. This analysis was then released to the press. Hard copy, special edition and several networks around the western hemisphere and South America. On Wenesday, several Officers from Luke Airforce Base, officials from the FAA and members of the city council all gathered (independantly?) at the offices of the scientist. The officials cleared the room and seemed very upset about the computer anamation being released to the media and hinted (More than hinted, really) at national security issues. They demanded to know how the (computer) model was made. Later FAA officials quized the scientist as the city council watched and later asked their own questions. Several officials came back during the evening as a closed door meeting took place. Meanwhile, Kal Korf contacts the council offices to info them that this man is a fraud and to ignore him. Curious, how did he even know this was going on? Also, why would he decide to send this damning info to the city council just before they left for the meeting. Many questions about Kal Korf, his sources and reasons remain unanswered. I spoke with (blank) today. He isn't talking about what happened at the meeting that night. This isn't to be misconstrued, however. The scientist is a very busy man... what with all the ufo photos coming in, needing to be analyized. Tonight 5/16/97, on "Extra" (well, it's on NBC @ 6:30 & 11:30pm, here) there will be some of what took place that day. At least the info they got that day will be presented.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Re: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:50:18 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 01:00:08 -0400 Subject: Re: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! >Date: 16 May 97 17:05:45 EDT >From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! >>Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:48:35 +0200 (MET DST) >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! >>But Kal, Confuscious is also saying: "If people only >>concern themselves with myths" - i.e. Meier, Roswell - >>"one must ask himself why". >The same reason that consumer's groups exist, from a >personal standpoint. Occasionally someone has to point >out that the emperor is, indeed, naked. >James A Diss Which is just another way to say that Kal Korff is indeed a debunker. __________________________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Leiden, The Netherlands \___________________________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 DISPATCH #52 -- the weekly newsletter of ParaScope From: ParaScope@AOL.COM Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:26:24 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 01:14:56 -0400 Subject: DISPATCH #52 -- the weekly newsletter of ParaScope DISPATCH #52 -- the weekly newsletter of ParaScope S O M E T H I N G S T R A N G E I S H A P P E N I N G 5/17/97 Quote of the Week LARRY KING: OK, what are you doing? Were you on that ledge at the motel across from where Dr. King was standing? JAMES EARL RAY: Ledge? KING: I mean whatever the shooting occurred from. Did you hold a rifle that day? Did you shoot a rifle that day? -- CNN gab-meister Larry King, who prides himself on "never preparing for interviews" questioning James Earl Ray during an April 12 broadcast. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Rant of the Week: May the Force Be With You Every week we pick the wackiest, scariest, nastiest or funniest rant from the hundreds of letters received by us here at ParaScope headquarters, and present it to you as our Rant of the Week. This week, "Gary" takes us to task for not mounting a "Million People Drive" on Area 51. (Surprise, Gary, it's already planned for 1998!) Enjoy! "Ready to quit playing games? Organise a Million people Drive to groom lake. They cant possibly handle this kind of American invasion and even if they try,The publicity would kill them.The government would be forced to respond in some fashion seeing the refusal of the American people to accept the ongoing secrecy of its Own government... But then you people would have to be seriuos about this subject to do something like this. And quite frankly you just like selling your inuendo and conspiracy stories....The truth coming out would cost you money and thats why no one is seriuos about sending this kind of message to washington........ enjoy your bullshit .:) let me know if you decide to quit playing with yourselves and get serious." [Reprinted with spelling and grammar goofs unchanged. Names changed to protect the ranters.] -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Enter the Realm of the Shadow Warrior! You loved "Blood" and begged us for more. Naturally, we couldn't resist. So ParaScope has again teamed with GT Interactive, the makers of Duke Nukem, to bring you another great action game download, absolutely free! Lo-Wang is the Shadow Warrior. Trained since birth in the ancient art of killing. A master among masters. A soldier of fortune. A man without fear. His motto: "Let those who deserve it die." Click on the Shadow Warrior buttons on the main screens of ParaScope's AOL and web sites to enter the realm of Lo-Wang, the Shadow Warrior. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Beyond the Gates of Hell Whether as the result of an overt or covert conspiracy to control people, information and ideas, or as an unfortunate side effect of the society's never-ending tug-of-war between security and freedom, many people believe Americans are losing the fight to preserve their civil liberties. But cyberspace is different. The online universe is hailed by many Netizens as the to the final frontier for free people and ideas. But government, big business and other interest groups all have an interest in stifling the Net, or at least a part of it. (See ParaScope's "Gates of Hell" story published this week for the lowdown on Microsoft's plan to own the Net.) Is cyberspace safe for free people. Does an "Evil Empire" lurk just around the bend? Discuss the fate of the Internet Saturday at 9pm ET on the ParaScope web site's Virtual Places chat room. http://www.parascope.com/virtualplaces/virtualplaces.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ There Be Dragons Here Legends old and new from around the world deal with large reptiles, usually winged and possessing special/magical powers. These beasts are known to the West as Dragons. Where does this lore come from? Is it an ancestral memory of creatures long extinct? What can explain the compelling belief so many have in these mystical beasts? Find a perch on the Grassy Knoll with PSCP Pan as we discuss the legends of Dragons the world over on Monday, May 19 from 10pm to midnight ET. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Coming Up Next Week! Catch all these stories next week on a daily basis on America Online, or all at once next Thursday on the web site! Contra Cocaine Documents Online The uproar over last year's San Jose Mercury News series flared again last week, when the paper's executive editor published a statement criticizing aspects of the series, which suggested that supporters of the CIA's contra guerrillas helped fuel the rise of the crack trade in the United States. The allegations have been hotly debated, expecially on the Web. Dossier investigates the best online documentation on the case, and gives you the inside scoop from "Dark Alliance" reporter Gary Webb, who started it all! ------------------ Artificial Intelligence: Even Better Than the Real Thing? (Part Two) In this second segment of a four-part special report, Enigma editor D. Trull continues his investigation of the AI controversy. Will computers ever achieve real consciousness and thought? Or has science has taken the wrong approach entirely in its pursuit of AI? Are predictions that self-aware robots and computers will rise against humanity just luddite paranoia, or warnings of technological apocalypse? ------------------ Operation Animal Mutilation: The Official Investigation You've heard about the cattle mutilations craze -- for years there have been reports of dead farm animals found with key body parts missing. Who or what is to blame? A government experiment? UFOs? Satanists? These are but a few of the theories that observers have floated. Now you can study the results of a massive government investigation of mutilations, as ParaScope presents the Justice Department-funded report you must see to believe. Be warned: the report's photos of classic "mutes" are not pretty! +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Want to help change the world, or at least a little corner of the online world? Here's your chance. Check out the following positions at ParaScope: Sound, Music, Action! Here's your chance to write the national anthem for the conspiracy nation -- or the paranormal republic -- take your pick. ParaScope is looking for musicians and sound designers to assist in bringing life to an upcoming multimedia project that combines some of the best of ParaScope's content from our first year online. If you'd like to volunteer to compose atmospheric music or sound effects, send a note to music@parascope.com. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Jane, Stop This Crazy Thing! Thought you were tough enough to handle the Dispatch and now you realize you're not? Starting to think you've made a wrong turn off the info highway? Well, we're only going to go over this once, so listen up! To unsubscribe yourself from Dispatch: 1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com 2) In the body of your mail, type: unsubscribe dispatch That's all there is to it! Likewise, if you've received this e-mail from a friend and you'd like to subscribe yourself, just: 1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com 2) In the body of your mail, type: subscribe dispatch ---------------------------------------- ParaScope 11288 Ventura Blvd., #904 Studio City, CA 91604 America Online -- keyword: parascope parascope@aol.com World-Wide Web -- http://www.parascope.com info@parascope.com Search for other documents from or mentioning: parascope | music |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 BWW Media Alert 970516 From: BufoCalvin@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:57:44 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 01:18:37 -0400 Subject: BWW Media Alert 970516 Bufo Calvin, P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com 510-432-8102 (voice, fax, and recorded messages) TAP (The Address Project) NEARU (National Events by Area Registry of the Unexplained) Bufo's WEIRD WORLD (paper and electronic newsletter) ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert for non-commercial purposes) May 17, 1997 Oh, I do get torn on this, between trying to cover everything and get it out early enough. Good week, though: THE LEARNING CHANNEL has a UFO week, and THE DISCOVER CHANNEL is rerunning BEYOND BIZARRE. The latter is not necessarily =good=, exactly, but worth seeing. I was on SIGHTINGS ON THE RADIO with Jeff Rense this week, talking about giant snakes. I think it went quite well, and thank all of you that listened. I'm also in the current issue of FATE, but I haven't seen it yet. It doesn't seem to be on the stands here on the West Coast yet. It includes a picture of me, taken in my actual library (although I moved a few of the piles first...). On to it! Hey, I haven't done anything except write this yet, and it really looks weird...the formatting I mean! I'll have to see how it comes out...apologies in advance if it looks screwy! FICTIONAL NOTES: This is where I briefly cover items which are fictional but which I feel are worth mentioning, either because of the impact they have had on the field or vice versa. I don't list weekly shows, just special items. If you want info on the weekly fictional shows, see Rebecca Keith�s excellent CNI NEWS MEDIA WATCH at http://www.cninews.com. Fox reruns the episode THE SPRINGFIELD FILES of THE SIMPSONS on Sunday at 8:30 PM...voices of David Duchovny and Gillian Anderson from THE X FILES, and Leonard Nimoy...Homer has an alien encounter. On the WB on Tuesday at 8:30 PM, Emmanuel Lewis plays an Alien on the CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE WORST KIND episode of IN THE HOUSE. There have been many inventive "explanations" of the Loch Ness Monster: on BEWITCHED on TBS on Friday at 5:35 AM, it turns out to be a warlock in the 'SAMANTHA AND THE LOCH NESS MONSTER episode. On the talk show parody, NIGHT STAND, the episode is SUPERNATURAL SEX (ghost lover)...7:30 PM and 10:30 PM, Thursday on E! HBO has the movie THE ARRIVAL (which a lot of =other= people liked) on Saturday at 11:45 AM, and Friday at 9:00 AM and 6:00 PM. They also run CONEHEADS on Tuesday at 2:30 PM. FLATLINERS, a movie about induced near-death experiences, is on Encore on Monday at 8:00 PM, andon THE MOVIE CHANNEL at 2:45 on Wed. HARRY AND THE HENDERSONS, Spielberg's bigfoot movie, is on STARZ, Saturday at 2:30 PM. Speaking of monster movies, THE MOVIE CHANNEL runs MAGIC IN THE WATER on Monday at 8:30 AM. BOOKS* RINGMAKERS OF SATURN* by Dr. Norman R. Bergrun, ISBN 0946270 33 3. This book was actually written back in 1986, but has been getting a good push lately. It was somewhat of a tough read for me...the first section is very much written in engineerese. I could understand it, but it isn't my first language ;) . I mean, if you don't understand terms like "efflux" and "fineness ratio", it's a long haul. The basic premise is that giant artificial craft have been photographed by the U.S. around Saturn, and that these craft make the rings! It =seemed= fairly convincing, but I'm not qualified to judge it. Lots of photographs and diagrams, though, will make it certainly worthwhile for folks into that stuff. When he got to the part I could zip through, he seemed to be making some logical jumps, but I'm not sure that =he= was qualified to judge those. I think it may be a case of good material not presented by someone who is a dynamic presenter and communicator. For more information on it, and to order it directly, contact OhMyStars@aol.com. Tell the nice person there that Bufo sent you :) . THE TAMPA TRIANGLE DEAD ZONE* by Captain Bill Miller, ISBN 0-9624019-7-8. It was funny: Lee Spiegel of THE EDGE OF REALITY asked me to prep some material for some of their affiliate radio stations, and one of the cities he mentioned was Tampa. I started doing the research, and couldn't find much. He told me that they were having a guy on who had written a whole book on all the weird stuff happening there! Well, I had to read it. Turned out the guy was covering a lot of stuff =outside= of Tampa proper: I'd only checked that city itself with the time I had. The book also turned out to be a whole lot of writing on a fairly small amount of material. The facts are few, and then there is a lot of anonymous speculation about them. He also includes stuff like a sunken submarine and a hammerhead shark...not paranormal in my mind. The book is fun, though: in part of it, it's like a hard-boiled detective novel! It does illustrate what I try to show with NEARU: weird stuff happens all over, and the biggest impact on an area getting a rep is a sympathetic and effective reporter. CONFERENCES, LECTURES, ETC. Saturday, May 17, 7:30 -10:30 PM, John Carpenter (not the movie director), abduction researcher for MUFON (Mutual UFO Network), talks about the supposed capture of non-human creatures in Brazil, abductions in Australia, and abductions and UFOs generally. Price is $10.00 at the door (no advance tickets). Chemistry Building Auditorium at the University of California at Santa Barbara. For more info, call Donna Higbee (a noted researcher in her own right, particularly in the area of spontaneous human combustion) at 805-964-3889. THE CROP CIRCLES OF 1996 Saturday, May 24, 7pm, Michael Glickman and Patricia Murray lecture on THE CROP CIRCLES OF 1996. Pacific Cultural Center, 1307 Seabright Avenue, Santa Cruz, California. $15 prepaid (check only), $20 at door. Mail payment by May 21 to Kwazupum Productions, 500 Quail Drive, Santa Cruz, CA 95060. More info, 408-471-1635. ONLINE OMNI MAGAZINE (http://www.omnimag.com) is back to do real time conferences. The regular night for our kind of stuff is Tuesday 7:00 PM to 8:00 PM Pacific. This week's guest is Philip Stander, co-author* of POLTERGEISTS AND THE PARANORMAL. RADIO AND TELEVISION SYNDICATED RADIO: END OF THE LINE seems to be having a lot of interesting guests, but they don't list info for the following week on the website (at http://www.endoftheline.com). However, Michael Lindemann does a UFO report on Wednesdays each week. You can listen to it on your computer, as well as on many radio stations: go to http://www.endoftheline.com SYNDICATED TV: COULD IT BE A MIRACLE? (They have now provided me with program summaries, which I greatly appreciate!) I've switched computers this week, let me see if I recover them yet. PSI-FACTOR (see http://www.psifactor.com for stations and airdates and other info). This series is supposedly based on real cases. --Week of May 12, case #32-1147. Last new show of the season, one case for the full hour, PERESTROIKA (giant, monster parasite emerges from frozen ancient creature). Saturday, May 17 RADIO: THE EDGE OF REALITY, 5:00 PM -8:00 PM Pacific. Also available on Satcom C5, Transponder 23, SEDAT Channel 24. The specific spots have to be considered tentative, and the station in your area may run it tape-delayed. 5:00 PM, The Amazing Kreskin...this guy has been around for years, but is quite an astounding "mentalist"; 5:30 PM, Erik Beckjord, the highly controversial curator of the National UFO, Bigfoot, and Loch Ness Monster Museum in San Francisco; 6:00, Lexa Rosean, the Witch from New York City ("ooh, wah, ooh, doo wah diddy), author of SUPERMARKET SORCERESS*; 6:30 PM, Dr. Steven Greer, head of CSETI (which tries to initiate contact with UFOS), who has recently tried to influence Washington bigwigs on the topic, and Retired Navy Commander Graham Bethune, UFO witness; 7:00 PM, Mike Stellitano and Dr. Dan Royal, on healing hands; the ever-entertaining, super-prolific author Brad Steiger on his latest book, TOTEMS* 9:00 AM, A&E, WHERE ARE ALL THE UFOS? (narrated by Micahel Dorn 2:00 PM, THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: MONSTERS OF THE LAKE (Nessie, etc....there are many lakes in which monsters are reported...see also STRANGE UNIVERSE for Thursday) 9:00 PM, THE LEARNING CHANNEL, THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE, THE UNEXPLAINED (crop circles, voodoo, etc.) Sunday, May 18 SYNDICATED RADIO, 7:00 PM, ART BELL'S DREAMLAND: (see http://www.artbell.com for stations and program info) LOCAL TELEVISION, KING COUNTY WASHINGTON, CHANNEL 29, 7:00 PM: JOURNEY: 12:00 AM, THE LEARNING CHANNEL, THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE, THE UNEXPLAINED (crop circles, voodoo, etc.) 11:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, SIGHTINGS (#5060): House of Plenty (Parts 1 and 2)! (haunted house story); 1947! (big year in UFOs); Healing Harps! (harps as therapeutic instruments); UFOs Holy Land! PM, THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: SPIRITS OF PLACE: HAUNTINGS AND GHOSTS 1:00 PM, THE DISCOVER CHANNEL, BEYOND BIZARRE:VAMPIRES AND OTHER PETS (healing; vampires; and pet psychologists...no, no, the psychologists aren't pets, these are psychologists =for= pets) 200 PM, A&E, THE UNEXPLAINED: ESP, DREAMS AND DISASTERS 2:00 PM, THE DISCOVER CHANNEL, BEYOND BIZARRE: WHAT IS BIZARRE? (snake-handling, poison-drinking churchgoers; rocks that move by themselves in Death Valley; the wolf boys ((hairy kids)) in Mexico; and modern mummification) 3:00 PM, THE DISCOVER CHANNEL, BEYOND BIZARRE: BODIES: DEAD AND ALIVE (cryptozoology, animal myths, and ghosts...as I recall, this last segment features Loyd Auerbach, well-known ghostbuster) 4:00 PM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, SIGHTINGS (#5060): 11:00 PM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, SIGHTINGS (#5060): MHouse of Plenty (Parts 1 and 2)! (haunted house story); 1947! (big year in UFOs); Healing Harps! (harps as therapeutic instruments); UFOs Holy Land!House of Plenty (Parts 1 and 2)! (haunted house story); 1947! (big year in UFOs); Healing Harps! (harps as therapeutic instruments); UFOs Holy Land! Monday, May 19 SYNDICATED TV, MONDAY, STRANGE UNIVERSE: White supremacists (this should have some weird stuff as well, but it's hard to tell...did a big episode on a polygamist this week) (see website at http://www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse for stations and playtimes in your area.) LOCAL TELEVISION, SNOHOMISH COUNTY, WASHINGTON, 3:00 PM: JOURNEY: Brenda Roberts produces. 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC, AND MIRACLES (#39): ALIEN MONTAGE; MIND OVER MATTER; RODS 7:00 PM, THE LEARNING CHANNEL, UFOS AND ALIEN ENCOUNTERS 10:00 PM, THE LEARNING CHANNEL, UFOS AND ALIEN ENCOUNTERS Tuesday, May 20 SYNDICATED TV, TUESDAY, STRANGE UNIVERSE: "DID NASA FAKE THE MOON LANDING?" (FORTEAN TIMES recently featured this idea in a couple of issues, and there are several books* that support it)(see website at http://www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse for stations and playtimes in your area) 8:00 AM, CBS, THIS MORNING (UFO-based theme park near Montreal) 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC AND MIRACLES (#40): 7:00 PM, THE LEARNING CHANNEL, ALIEN SECRETS: AREA 51 (part 1) 10:00 PM, THE LEARNING CHANNEL, ALIEN SECRETS: AREA 51 (part 1) Wednesday, May 21 SYNDICATED TV, WEDNESDAY, STRANGE UNIVERSE: FIRESTARTERS (spontaneous human combustion) (see website at http://www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse for stations and playtimes in your area) 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC, AND MIRACLES (#41): 7:00 PM, THE LEARNING CHANNEL, ALIEN SECRETS: AREA 51 (part 2) 7:00 PM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, SIGHTINGS (5064): no details available, but should be a new episode...check the website at http://www.scifi.com/sightings after Tuesday)...rumor has it it might cover bigfoot 10:00 PM, THE LEARNING CHANNEL, ALIEN SECRETS: AREA 51 (part 2) 11:00 PM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, SIGHTINGS (5064): no details available, but should be a new episode...check the website at http://www.scifi.com/sightings after Tuesday) Thursday, May 22 SYNDICATED TV, THURSDAY, STRANGE UNIVERSE: THE MONSTER OF FLATHEAD LAKE (one summary I have goes on to say that the monster rescues a child. Flathead Lake is in Montana, and the critter is fairly well-known there, with reports in the local paper. It made quite a splash in the early 1960s (see website at http://www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse for stations and playtimes in your area) 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MAGIC, MYSTERIES AND MIRACLES (#42): 7:00 PM, A&E, THE UNEXPLAINED: PSYCHIC DETECTIVES 7:00 PM, THE LEARNING CHANNEL, UFO 9:00 PM, THE DISCOVER CHANNEL, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: DOOM OF THE DINOSAURS 10:00 PM, THE LEARNING CHANNEL, UFO 11:00 PM, A&E, THE UNEXPLAINED: PSYCHIC DETECTIVES Friday, May 23 LOCAL RADIO, 8:00 PM (Pacific Time) WGBB 1240 AM, New York: THE JOYCE KELLER SHOW: the host is a psychic who helps callers. Phone number is 516-955-1240 SYNDICATED TV, FRIDAY, STRANGE UNIVERSE: (see website at http://www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse for stations and playtimes in your area) 12:00 AM, THE DISCOVER CHANNEL, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: DOOM OF THE DINOSAURS 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC AND MIRACLES (#43): 7:00 PM, THE LEARNING CHANNEL, UFOS AND OTHER CLOSE ENCOUNTERS 8:00 PM, NBC, UNSOLVED MYSTERIES: This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!" ____________________________ *Want books on these topics over the Internet? Go to http://www.strangemag.com OR You can order books by calling 1-800-905-8367 (615-896-1356 outside the USA). PLEASE TELL THEM BUFO SENT YOU. This is not a paid ad, but if you order something and identify me, I get something. Anything I get will go towards my work in this field. STRANGE Magazine is edited by Mark Chorvinsky. Greenleaf is operated by Marc Davenport and Leah Haley. ------------------------------------------------- **OPUS is the Organization for Paranormal Understanding and Support. I am an Executive Boardmember, and Director of the OPUS Educational Institute. OPUS encourages its officers and Network Associates to express their own opinions: however, it is important to note that I do not speak for OPUS in this piece or others presented under my own name. For more information on OPUS, call toll-free 1-888-999-OPUS. __________________________________________________ You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com. You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to Bufo's WEIRD WORLD (which covers theories and happenings) the same way. Also, please let me know if there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, the week before.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Re: The disappearing regiment in WWI From: livesey@trump.net.au (Stuart Livesey) Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 22:42:35 GMT+1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 10:37:26 -0400 Subject: Re: The disappearing regiment in WWI >Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 01:07:20 -0400 >To: updates@globalserve.net >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: UFO UpDate: The disappearing regiment in WWI >Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:03:08 -0700 (PDT) >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: The disappearing regiment in WWI >A friend was asking me if I knew where this large-scale abduction event >is written up within the UFO literature. I came across it years ago >and can't remember now where I saw it. Can someone on the List? >It involved British soldiers, as I recall, engaged against Turkish soldiers >in WWI. The one group marched into a "cloud," which then lifted up and off. >Thanks, >Jim Deardorff I believe that the story of the "disappearing regiment" arose during the Dardanelles campaign that commenced on 25 April 1915 when troops from the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand went ashore at Gallipoli, Turkey. The campaign was doomed to failure and the Australian & New Zealand forces were at the sharp end of the fighting from the start and suffered incredible casualties for very little gain. In fact on several occasions when a battalion's roll was called after a battle the number of survivors who were capable of answering to their names could be numbered on the fingers of both hands. I'm not sure at what point in the campaign this story began began but there is little doubt that it referred to an Australian battalion. However, it is only a story and is not grounded in fact. While a battalion may have been seen marching into a cloud they were only going up to the front and, while many of the troops never returned there is no official record of an entire battalion disappearing. I have also heard the story in relation to a British unit that allegedly vanished in similar circumstances during the fighting around Ypres. Again, I don't believe that there is any basis in fact. Rather, I think it was just another unit chewed up in the dreadful fighting that went on there. Of course it is possible that there are some people out there who may suggest that this was all covered up as part of the great UFO/Government conspiracy but let's not forget that this was 1914-1918 and to try and link this to conspiracy theory is just too far-fetched. If anyone wants more info, write to me off-list and I may be able to find out which battalion was involved. I did come across that information some years ago but I now can't remember the exact details. Stuart Livesey
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Re: Crash in Puerto Rico From: Francisco Lopez <d005734c@dc.seflin.org> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 01:49:38 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 10:49:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Crash in Puerto Rico Thanks to Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo from Miami UFO Center for forwarding Mr. Martin's fax. From:UFOMiami@aol.com English translation follows. Estimado Francisco Lopez, Aqui te envio un Fax que me envio nuestro colega en Puerto Rico Jorge Martin para su divulgacion. No he tenido el tiempo para traducirlo al ingles, espero que me ayudes con esto. Ayer lei otra version, no firmado, y traducido por ti sobre el mismo caso. Pienso que este es muy importante. Lo estoy divulgando a los de habla en castellanos. Con el tiempo sabremos la verdad. Virgilio <=><=><=><=><=><=><=><=><=><=><=><=><=><=><=><=><=><=><=><=> ENGLISH I'm sending a fax that our colleague Jorge Martin in Puerto Rico sent us for its dissemination. I had no time to translate it to English, hope you can help me on this. Yesterday I read another version, not signed and translated by you about the same case. I think that this [one] is very important. I'm sending it to those speaking Spanish [Editor's note: UFOES and other lists]. With the [passage of] time, we will know the truth. Virgilio Recibimos y divulgamos textualmente este Comunicado de Prensa recibido el 5/09/1997. ======================================================== [We] receive and publish textually this Press Release received on 5/09/97. Comunicado de Prensa Press Release Referente a: Estrellamiento de OVNI en Lajas, Puerto Rico. In reference to: UFO crash in Lajas, Puerto Rico Texto: Text: A toda la comunidad local e internacional. To all local and internation community. Jorge Martin, Director del Centro de Investigaciones Cientificas de Ovnistica y lo Paranormal de Puerto Rico, y editor de la revista Evidencia OVNI, alerta por este medio que las informaciones sobre el alegado estrellamiento de un OVNI en el sector de la Sierra Bermeja, en Lajas, Puerto Rico, en la noche del 5 de mayo de 1997 son enteramente falsas y parten de un montaje hecho por individuos irresponsables. English Jorge Martin, Director of the Center for UFOlogical and Paranormal Scientific Investigations of Puerto Rico and editor of the magazine Evidencia OVNI [UFO Evidence], alert via this medium that the informations about the allegued crash of a UFO in Lajas, PR in the night of May 5, 1997 are false on their entirety and came from irresponsible individuals. Estas mismas personas, que se han dedicado a fabricar y a diseminar otras informaciones falsas en el pais, como las ya conocidas fotos falsas de "cadaveres" de extraterrestres, que en realidad son los famosos munecos de goma utilizados para la produccion de la pelicula comercial de Hollywood, Roswell., protagonizada por el actor Martin Sheen, han informado en esta ocasion a los medios de comunicacion que el alegado OVNI se habria estrellado en la sierra esa noche, que el area habia sido controlada totalmente por gran numero de agentes federales y que el publico habria sido hostigado y amenazado por estos, que el area habria sido invadida por un gran numero de helicopteros militares federales de los EE.UU. y de la policia de Puerto Rico, etc., y que agentes federales se habrian llevado del lugar los restos del platillo volador y de alegados seres extraterrestres. English These same persons, who had been dedicated to dissemenate other false informations through the country as those already known false photos of extraterrestrial corpses, that were just the famous manequins used for the Rosswel movie, protagonozed by martin Sheen, had informed the media thatthe allegued UFO crashed in the sierra [mountanious range] that night and that the area was controlled by federal agents and that the public was harrassed and threatene by these, that the area had been invaded by a great number of millitary hellicopters from the federal government from the USA and the Puertorrican Police and that the feds took the remnant of the UFO and the ETs. Un evento normal y natural, como lo es la caida de un aparente meteorito encendido en el sector, que incendio el abundante pasto seco de la region, afectado por una fuerte sequia, ha sido convertido irresponsablemente por estos individuos en un sensacionalista incidente mayusculo en el que, alegadamente, un platillo volador se habria estrellado en el lugar, devastando toda el area y matando a muchos animales, incluyendo a caballos, etc.. English A normal and natural event as is the crash of an apparent incandescent meteorite in the sector, which inflamed the dry pastures [due the strong drought] had been converted irresponsibly in a sensacionalist mayor incident, in which an allegued flying saucer had been crashed in the place, devastating all the area and killing horses and many other aninals. El Centro de Investigaciones desea informar a toda la comunidad, tanto local como internacional, que habiendo investigado responsablemente los hechos, y tras haber recibido innumerables llamadas requiriendo informacion al respecto, que todo el asunto es parte de un montaje y una gran farsa. English The Center of Investigations, want to inform to al the community, local and international that having investigated responsibly the facts and after receiving inumerable calls requesting information, that all the affair is a farse and a staging. Para mas informacion los interesados pueden comunicarse al centro al tel. [ 787] 758- 0692, por e-mail a: jmartin@coqui.net. o escribir a: CEDICOP P.O.Box 29516, San Juan, Puerto Rico 00929-0516 English For more information, all interested parties can caal 787 758-0692 or e mail jmartin@coqui.net or to write to: CEDICOP PO Box 29516, San Juan, PR 00929-0516 ============================================================ Hasta aqui el mensaje recibido y firmado por el colega Jorge Martin. message received and signed by the colleague Jorge Martin. Dr.Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo Miami UFO Center http://www.angelfire.com/fl/ufomiami/index.html Search for other documents from or mentioning: d005734c | ufomiami |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Re: The disappearing regiment in WWI From: Ron Decker <ron_decker@wavebbs.com> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 06:01:44 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:37:56 -0400 Subject: Re: The disappearing regiment in WWI > Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:03:08 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: The disappearing regiment in WWI > A friend was asking me if I knew where this large-scale abduction event > is written up within the UFO literature. I came across it years ago > and can't remember now where I saw it. Can someone on the List? > It involved British soldiers, as I recall, engaged against Turkish soldiers > in WWI. The one group marched into a "cloud," which then lifted up and off. > Thanks, > Jim Deardorff Jim, If memory serves me correctly I beleive this was supposed to have happened at Gallipoli (sp?). My recollection is that an entire regiment was enveloped in a cloud/mist/fog and disappeared. I don't recall the incident being connected with UFOs, though. Best regards, Ron Decker
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 How We Were Saved From Flying Speedboats From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:35:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:35:35 -0400 Subject: How We Were Saved From Flying Speedboats The Toronto Star Saturday, May 17, 1997 Arts Section Page N3 How we were saved from flying speedboats Late afternoon, June 24, 1947. At the airport in Pendleton, Oregon, Kenneth Arnold was struggling to find the words to describe to reporters what he'd seen flying "very rapidly" in the direction of Mount Rainier in Washington a couple of hours earlier. The 32-year-old rescue pilot and businessman had been using his single-engine plane in an effort to find a downed U.S. Marine transport plane when he saw what he described as a "chain of nine peculiar looking aircraft." Striking out after what he first assumed were jests, he quickly lost the crescent-shaped objects as they zoomed away in formation at a speed the pilot calculated at 1,656 mph. Whatever they were, he decided they weren't airplanes. The reporters, who'd been alerted to the incident after Arnold had refueled a couple of hours earlier in Yakima, Washington, traded furtive glances. They pressed the young man, by all accounts a community pillar, to describe exactly what he'd seen. Struggling for an image, Arnold first likened the objects to speedboats on water, then to the swooping tail of a Chinese kite. The scribes still weren't getting the picture. Then Arnold said it: "They flew like a saucer would if you skipped it across the water." Bingo. Before running out to file, Bill Bequette scribbled two words that would effectively launch (so to speak) one of the more persistent and perplexing pop culture phenomena of the postwar century. According to the reporter, Arnold had seen "flying saucers". Nothing new about people seeing high strangeness in the wild blue yonder, of course. In the anxiously atomic year of 1946, unsettling reports began appearing in Scandinavian newspapers about an outbreak of sightings of rocket-like objects "spook bombs" -- flaming across the sky, occasionally crashing spectacularly in lakes. During the war, pilots from all sides had reported mysterious balls of light -- nicknamed 'Foo Fighters' after a comic-strip gag --- that would pursue and dart around planes in flight. In the last years of the 19th century, when the science-fiction writings of Jules Verne trigged a worldwide explosion of interplanetary-themed dime novels, people reported seeing giant illuminated, cigar-shaped airships in the skies. As one travels across time and cultures, the objects reported my change, but their airborne status remains: the 'floating cities' of the early 19th century, the flying dragons of the Middle Ages, the swooping 'silver shields' that attacked Alexander the Great in 329 B.C., the deadly flying 'Vimanas' described in an Indian text written in 5th century B.C. For the Romans, they were 'flying chariots' and for the ancient Chinese 'flying carts'. For Ezekiel, the Kenneth Arnold of the Old Testament, it was a "wheel in the middle of a wheel" that fired lightning bolts during ascent. Since 1947, thanks to Bequette's economical turn of phrase, it has been flying saucers. Within months after the Arnold affair, UFO sightings (ahem) skyrocketed across the continent, but people weren't seeing missiles, cigars or luminous gremlins much any more. They saw saucers. Indeed, less than a month after Arnold landed in Pendleton, when the single-most controversial incident in UFO lore happened -- the allegedly hushed-up crash-landing of an extraterrestrial craft near the airbase at Roswell, N.M. -- the banner headline in The Roswell Daily Record confirmed the entry of a new fixture to to the popular lexicon. It read: "RAAF Captures Flying Saucer On Ranch Near Roswell Region." By the early 1950s, flying saucers were, like cars and teenagers, everywhere -- if not hovering silently above the desert highway somewhere, then on magazine and paperback covers, in comic books and cartoons and, of course, at the movies: 'It Came From Outer Space', 'Earth Vs. The Flying Saucers', 'It Conquered The World', 'The Day The Earth Stood Still', 'I Married A Monster From Outer Space', 'Invaders From Mars'. By the time Eisenhower became president, aliens were plummeting from the heavens like prairie hailstones, their favoured method of conveyance being the flying saucer. Fifty years after the Arnold incident, it still is and it makes one marvel at the pure, sublime serendipity of the thing. Had those reporters not pressed the poor pilot for a more evocative image, we might have endured a half-century of attack by flying speedboats.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Re: 'Alien Autopsy' Problems - According to Korff From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:42:17 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:36:57 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Alien Autopsy' Problems - According to Korff UFO UpDates - Toronto wrote: > > From: RobIrving@aol.com > Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:27:48 -0400 (EDT) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: 'Alien Autopsy' Problems - According to Korff > > > Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 04:45:12 +0000 > > From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> > > To: updates@globalserve.net > > Subject: ALIEN AUTOPSY-PROBLEMS WITH IT ACCORDING TO KAL KORFF. > > > Dear Colleagues, > > <snip> > > > Korff does point out other problems with the AA film many, if not most of > > which have been dealt with elesewhere and certainlt in BEYOND > > ROSWELL. > > certainlt elesewhere, anyway. C'mon Philip, with regard to information on the > SUE footage, to suggest that your book delves any deeper than two year-old > superficialities is misleading. For example, Korff mentions problems with the > film can label seals, and you say you've dealt with that. How have you dealt > with that? Dear Rob, I've mentioned the film canister labels in this posting and what is depected on one of them. There are some things that I can not answer nor can you, the only person that can is the man who shot the film. Fake or genuine, someone shot the film, hence there could well be and probably is a cameraman. I'd like to discuss the problems highlighted in my posting and your comments on them, if you are qualified to comment, would be appreciated. Philip.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Alfred's Odd Ode #136 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 08:16:37 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:40:48 -0400 Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #136 Apology to MW #136 (For May 17, 1997) =20 Arcturus is a star that wavers subtlety, In it=92s place of mythos mingling with the night. Like the eye of a beast asleep by half, It glows in other colors, soft, but bright. Twenty three times the size our sun, We know its motion in the sky. It=92s part of errant history, And the sum of those who=92ve died. A breeze was in the grasses of an aging spring confined By the wine sweet effervescence of a flower. In the sky above our heads was a timeless sweep of space And Bootes was watching bears in ursine power. =20 It was a moment=92s glad respite from the injustice Of a world all out of practice with itself. Alanis Morrisette was on the speakers She sang it plain, and sweet and breathy from the shelf. And the night birds, singing sonic without feathers, Danced with bugs that were provided as a shield To keep them warm, and fed against the night fears; Their fear of us, and the power that we wield. We=92re the thinking part of water,=20 And could be taking better care Of a cradle made a cesspool, Or our home in sad repair. "Global warming=92s total bullshit." One said behind me in my car. But my mind was on some friendliness So I didn=92t take it far. . . Except to say <g>, I hope you=92re right, And my professors have been looney. Cray computers model tripe, And disaster=92s looming hooey. I hope your birds do sweetly sing In reds, and golds, and browns. And never cause have we to weep For dying, hapless towns. The sky is now it=92s robin=92s egg. And saucers criticize your sky. And the history channel asks the kids "Are there UFO=92s, and why?" Their report was: kids don=92t buy it. They=92re not believing in What=92s lurking in the shadows Of their father=92s bosses=92 friends. And they sure don=92t cop at college. Where they smoke their rightist blend. They won=92t question their convictions, And they=92d sooner break then bend. Now the evening is upon me; the sky ascends to purple. The stars wink on in undiminished fire. Arcturus herds at night, bear protector burning bright. . . My eyes beyond the sullen churches spire. =20 Lehmberg@snowhill.com Good God, but we have to find a way to get off each other=92s ass! I say this knowing that I can get so far up a persons nose they can feel my boot heels on their chin. But again, if I was hearing this message anywhere else, I=92d climb down. I=92m in the possession of a text book that gives indication things are worse than I suspected. Just another liberal pule from a liberal education system? I think not! Key words are "cognitive dissonance", and "Lies my teacher told me." More coming. --=20 "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake. Bootes looked down, saddly, from the sky. =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1= =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1= =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1 Government or Social Harassment REPORT - Presently, "ZERO" HARASSMENT
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Re: ORTK Report on Phoenix, AZ, City Meeting From: TotlResrch@aol.com <Kal K. Korff> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 13:33:10 -0400 Subject: Re: ORTK Report on Phoenix, AZ, City Meeting Recently, Ed Komarek posted an update for his Operation Right to Know bulletin regarding the mysterious lights over Arizona and claimed in his post: >Meanwhile, Kal Korf [sic!] contacts the council offices [in <Arizona] to >info them that this man is a fraud and to ignore him. Curious, how did he >even know this was going on? Also, why would he decide to send this damning >info to the city council just before they left for the meeting. Many >questions about Kal Korf, his sources and reasons remain unanswered. Now for a dose of REALITY. TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT, I have contacted NOBODY in Phoenix regarding these sightings...I have been so far behind in catching up with basic correspondence I simply have had no time!! In the next two weeks or so, I do hope to follow up on this, but only as time permits. Whomever Komark's "source" is, he is WRONG, and since I have contacted NOBODY about this, they must have made it up. Whether this was Komarek or someone else, who knows... I am not even sure Ed knows what drummer he marches to the beat of. :-) Finally, I CHALLENGE Komarek and his "source" (if this person even exists) to NAME WHO I SPOKE WITH and provide the DETAILS to PROVE their allegations. I am "psychically" predicting that Komarek or his "source" will NOT be able to do this, because in REALITY NO SUCH CONVERSATIONS have taken place! Once again, I have NOT had the time to even look into these alleged sightings over Arizona. I wish I did have the time because it would mean that my workload wasn't so heavy. It seems to me that Ed Komarek, once again, will have to go back to the drawing board on this one. And while he's there, he might as well take the time to correct himself on his misperceptions about me being a debunker, ad nauseum. Respectfully yours, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> Date: 17 May 97 08:30:46 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:40:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? >Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:11:05 +0100 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? Sean wrote; >It is "believed" that there _IS_ evidence that proves this to be the >case BUT that the evidence is being withheld from public scrutiny by >various government agencies. _IF_ this where to be true ( I might add >here that I believe this ) then the various government agencies would >have whatever they need to debunk "our" claims, IE the evidence. After >all how often has it been said "show us the evidence". In terms of the above, the most calls for the evidence to be shown actually come from ufology itself, rather than the faceless powers that be. It's very well to insinuate that people are in the pay of government agencies, but in the most part it's a simple insinuation. Given some of the claims out there, I think its important that things get questioned, but recent events on the list have shown that you can take this to extremes that end up in the realm of serious slander with no direct evidence. It could be argues that 'black' government is extremely good at keeping secrets, but then any secret produced so far has had a maximum shelf life of around thirty years, not a good record. Ufology has been around for forty, and very little has come forward in terms of direct evidence that government agencies, any government agencies, have anything but a nodding aquaintance with the wider phenomenon. Rather, ufology has descended into the realms of politics and personality cults that seek to promulagate a given viewpoint rather than a wider understanding of the mechanisms involved, be they TSTs, Nuts and Bolts, Psychological, dimensional, ad naueseum... I'd say I'm sick of it all, but I enjoy it too much. James A Diss ---------------------- HEALTH WARNING: Care Should Be Taken When Lifting This Product, Since Its Mass, and Thus Its Weight, Is Dependent on Its Velocity Relative to the User. --------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Shell's Brief Look at Korff's Roswell Book From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 17 May 97 10:19:58 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 13:43:07 -0400 Subject: Shell's Brief Look at Korff's Roswell Book Please distribute to the ends of the earth and beyond. After much anticipation I finally got my copy of Kal Korff's book _The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want You To Know_. First of all, the book is deceptively packaged, since it would be impossible to know from reading anything on the dust jacket that this is an anti-Roswell book. The bio of Korff simply states that he is "the author of _Spaceships of the Pleiades: The Billy Meier Story_. He is also president and CEO of TotalResearch, a group dedicated to studying the mysteries and phenomena of both the normal and paranormal realms. He lectures widely and has appeared on such popular shows as "Larry King Live!" and "Encounters". I predict that many will buy this book thinking it is pro-Roswell, based on brief perusal of the dust jacket info, and be very distressed at what they actually get. Anyway, I have so far only glanced through the balance of the book. I wish to comment at this point only on the short, fourteen-page, chapter on the Alien Autopsy film. I have made it clear many times that I do not have 100% assurance that the AA film is real. However, I do think that the preponderance of the evidence points in that direction. If it is a hoax, it is the best one in history, and incredibly well researched. However, in the two and a half years I have been studying the film I have grown very tired of debunkers dismissing the film with poorly researched or nonsensical "evidence". I was expecting more from Korff. I did not get it. First of all, reading of this chapter clearly spills some sour grapes from Korff because he initially thought that Bob Kiviat would make him the prime researcher on the film. "We joked about the fact that I was going to be the "Forensic UFOlogist" in the affair and I felt honored that of all the UFO researchers with whom Kiviat was well acquainted he gave me the nod." Further reading reveals that it didn't work out that way, and, in fact, Kiviat used none of Korff's material in his programs. But, let's get to "facts". The first problem with the footage, according to Korff, is that is could not have been shot with a Bell & Howell Filmo 70. Now to put my response to this in perspective, I learned to use a 16 mm movie camera from my father, who was a TV news reporter. They used a bunch of B & H Filmo cameras in the news department he worked in, and they were regarded as the workhorses. They also used a few Bolex cameras, which were much more refined, but much more delicate. In a scrap the B & H Filmo made a darned good weapon as well as camera! I did my first filming with a B & H Filmo 70 at around the age of 15-16, and used them on and off for many years after that. I even did one short film on a Filmo which was broadcast on TV. Later I moved on to more refined cameras like the Beaulieu and Eclair, and did some longer films, including one TV documentary. I am very familiar with the Filmo 70, cut my cinematographic teeth on it as it were. Korff says "The Bell and Howell Filmo 70 is a spring-loaded, manually wound camera." That statement is total nonsense. What, pray tell, is a spring-loaded camera? The B & H Filmo series, the longest production run of any motion picture camera, are spring-driven. The spring is wound with a big key on the earlier models and with a crank on the later ones. Some models have a coupling which allows connection of an electric motor, but this motor is very big and heavy and not suited to hand-held shooting. Korff continues: "Unlike today's cameras which have electrically driven motors to advance the film frames, the Filmo 70 does not. Because of this, when a person films something with this particular model and then stops and starts again, the first few frames are over-exposed while the spring-loaded mechanism gets going. As a result a white "hot flash" area will saturate the first few frames...." If one of my photo magazine writers wrote something like that I'd fire him! "Electrically driven motors to advance the film frames..." indeed! Why not just say what you mean, "electric motors to advance the film". Bloviation is a sign of uncertainty in writers, and I deal with it day in and day out. Additionally, this statement is incorrect. The Bell & Howell Filmo 70 produces white flashed frames occasionally because the shutter mechanism has no brake to insure that it always stops in the closed position. It stops in random positions between closed and open, sometimes only partially open. Whether this produces flashed frames depends on how much light there is and where the camera is pointed. However, the camera stops with the shutter closed more often than not. Over exposure while coming up to speed is only apparent in a malfunctioning Filmo 70. When properly lubricated and adjusted, which is easy to do on a camera this simple (I've completely stripped and reassembled them), this effect simply does not occur. Korff also mentions "Jump cutting", sequences which suddenly start and stop. If he had been paying attention he would realize that Santilli has said that the film was in bad shape, and had many breaks, and a lot of it was received as loose strips of varying length. This film was put back together in what they thought was the proper sequence, but in at least one case they got one strip of film out of sequence in putting it back together. This does not prove that the film "...has obviously been manipulated by either Santilli or someone else.", just that is was in poor condition with a number of breaks. "When Ray Santilli supplied a strip of film for examination that he claimed was from the autopsy footage, he furnished only _blank leader film_, the transparent plastic portion that one feeds into a projector when threading the reel. While this blank leader film did contain the appropriate edge codes......" Sorry, Kal, there is blank film and there is leader, and they are not the same. There is no such thing as blank leader film. Leader is film with no emulsion or markings which is supplied in rolls and is cut and spliced onto the beginning and end of a film to allow threading of the projector. Blank film, which is what Ray supplied, is actual film with the edge markings, which are optically printed onto the film at the factory and appear when the film is developed. This blank film is part of actual camera rolls, while leader is not. Now, whether this particular blank film with 1947 edge markings really came from the AA film is the real question. Ray Santilli says it did. John Purdy, who has a quantity of it which he got from Ray, was convinced that it did when I last talked to him about it. That Ray Santilli knows the difference between film and leader is clearly shown in the quote from Ray which is used at the chapter header, that Kal Korff does not is clearly shown by this statement. "There is another problem with the alien autopsy film: Ray Santilli has posted on the Internet copies of some of the labels from film canisters...." Actually what have been posted and curculated as hard copies are copies of three Kodak film BOXES with labels affixed to them, not canister labels. Kal claims that the seal on the labels is that of the DOD, and that this did not exist in June or July of 1947. Unfortunately, the stamps were made with old-fashioned rubber stamps, and the ink has blobbed out around the letters, and it is impossible to read the writing on the seals. It is by no means established that these are DOD seals. Computer analysis of the writing has been inconclusive, but the best educated guesses are that the writing says either Central Intelligence Agency or Defense Intelligence Agency. Kal also jumps on the mention of a # 85 filter on one of the labels, and says this filter was only used with color film. A # 85 filter is an amber filter, normally used to balance Type A color film for use in daylight, but since it is simply an amber filter it can also be used with black and white film when slightly enhanced contrast is desired. I've done it myself, and I'm sure I'm not the only photographer who ever thought of this. I have found several references in photographic literature to using a #85 filter with black and white film. In the use of filters, as in much of photography, there are no hard and fast rules. Korff also goes into a long-winded bit about Santilli buying Elvis footage from Bill Randle and this somehow proving that Santilli did not get Elvis footage from the AA cameraman. This presumes that Santilli only once bought any Elvis footage. In actual fact, Santilli and his company have the largest holdings of Elvis material other than that held by Graceland. Ray has shown me several different Elvis documentaries he has produced, and they contain footage from a wide variety of sources. Incidentally, Ray never took delivery of the footage from Randle (confirmed by Randle), so the statement that he sold it to Polygram is wrong. After all of this, Kal moves on to "Alien Autopsy Blunders". First he brings out the bit about the doctor holding the scissors wrong. Sorry Kal, no cigar, that was thrown out nearly two years ago along with the curly cord and telephone. There were surgeons who used the scissors hold shown in the film. In fact, this is one of the reasons that medical experts who have looked at the film are convinced that the man doing the dissection is a surgeon and not a pathologist. Next we hear about the absence of a body block, "always" used in real autopsies. So howecome there are films of real autopsies in which the body block is not used? Kal is upset that organs are put into metal pans and not glass jars. Visits to medical museums have revealed that enamel coated metal pans were used in this time period for this purpose. True, this is not how it would be done today, but this film is not claimed to show a modern procedure. The other points about the body bleeding when cut, the look of the internal organs, etc. have been discussed ad nauseum with medical experts, and they see no problems with any of this. Neither do I, and I have done numerous dissections and watched autopsies. BTW, "The entire venture would be marketed under the name of "Roswell Limited"." Actually, Kal, that's Roswell Footage Ltd., which was later changed to Orbital Media, Ltd. I can only hope that the rest of the book is written better and more carefully researched and that this chapter was thrown together at the last minute. I'll read the rest of the book one day..... Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 [Fwd] Re: ORTK Report on Phoenix, AZ, City Meeting From: Richard Motzer <RFMmars@AOL.COM> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:28:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:54:49 -0400 Subject: [Fwd] Re: ORTK Report on Phoenix, AZ, City Meeting That meeting was helded at Village Labs were I presented our findings that the lights the night of 3-13-97 were FLARES over and behind the Estrella Mountains and not over the City of Phoenix. You bet when Extra ran the story there was not a mention of this. This does not explain the V formation that night with I have the original source tape shot on HI 8 Richard F. Motzer State field investigator Mufon AZ
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Re: ORTK Confidential Report on AZ UFO City From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:08:29 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 13:45:53 -0400 Subject: Re: ORTK Confidential Report on AZ UFO City Hi Ed. Here is some additional info in regards to The city council meeting in Phoenix. Will you please make any edits you must to get my name off this e-mail and post it to Errols Updates. I'm too close and don't want to get into trouble with anyone. At 01:04 AM 5/17/97 -0400, you wrote: >From: EdKomarek@aol.com >Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:59:20 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: ORTK COMFIDENTIAL REPORT ON AZ CITY COUNCIL UFO MEETING >ORTK confidential report on AZ City Council UFO meeting >ORTK Bulletin Editor: I recieved this report from a confidential source this >evening and hopefully others will be able to confirm this story. This person >is known to me. >Sincerely, Ed Komarek Well, I can't get into specifics yet, but I will say what is wrong with this. ________________________________________________ >A local official here in Phoenix asked Airforce officials for an >explanation about the so called "Phoenix Lights" seen over Phoenix >and parts of Arizona last month. Meanwhile, a computer lab wizard >had a team of guys working on a computer model of the sightings. >The info gathered from 6 (maybe more, I'm not sure) different video >cameras was used to triangulate the size and movements of the craft. >This analysis was then released to the press. Hard copy, special >edition and several networks around the western hemisphere and South >America. This for the most part is true, but the Computer work is still in process. >On Wenesday, several Officers from Luke Airforce Base, officials from >the FAA and members of the city council all gathered (independantly?) >at the offices of the scientist. The officials cleared the room and >seemed very upset about the computer anamation being released to the >media and hinted (More than hinted, really) at national security issues. >They demanded to know how the (computer) model was made. Nobody from Luke. No scientist. No officials cleared the room, nor was anyone upset. The computer model anyone can be done at home. So right there should tell you something about whoever sent you this report. People were brought into the session in small groups, or sometimes one at a time. The FAA was there. >Later FAA officials quized the scientist as the city council watched >and later asked their own questions. Several officials came back >during the evening as a closed door meeting took place. Again no scientists. >Meanwhile, Kal Korf contacts the council offices to info them that >this man is a fraud and to ignore him. Curious, how did he even know >this was going on? Also, why would he decide to send this damning info >to the city council just before they left for the meeting. Many >questions about Kal Korf, his sources and reasons remain unanswered. I don't know if Korf was involved in anyway, or made any phone calls. But at the meeting Richard Motzar, member of MUFON was there. He brought in 2 additional pieces of video. Then what he did is utterly amazing. He claimed all other video were flares, but the ones he brought with him were real????!!?!?!?!?! Does anybody understand that I don't. This guy has a very kooky history, and I would not be surprised that there is some affiliation with CSICOP. He has this attitude and takes all the info he can get his hands onto and sits on it. I have and many others have been repeatedly upset by this mans actions. But this is the last straw.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Re: How We Were Saved From Flying Speedboats From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:12:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:12:54 -0400 Subject: Re: How We Were Saved From Flying Speedboats I neglected to include the writers name before I posted the following article. If you're archiving it or passing it on please change your copies to reflect the following: The Toronto Star Saturday, May 17, 1997 Arts Section Page N3 How we were saved from flying speedboats by Geoff Pevere ___________ Thanks, ebk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Re: The disappearing regiment in WWI From: werd@interlog.com (Drew Williamson) Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 13:58:16 -0400 Subject: Re: The disappearing regiment in WWI >Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:03:08 -0700 (PDT) >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: The disappearing regiment in WWI >A friend was asking me if I knew where this large-scale abduction >event >is written up within the UFO literature. I came across it >years ago and >can't remember now where I saw it. Can someone on the >List? >It involved British soldiers, as I recall, engaged against Turkish >>soldiers in WWI. The one group marched into a "cloud," which then >>lifted up and off. >Thanks, >Jim Deardorff ************************** Jim, I don't know where you saw it, but here is the account as related in Peter Brookesmith's, UFO: The Complete Sightings, which includes a possible (Earthly) explaination. Drew Williamson ************************** UFO: The Complete Sightings By: Peter Brookesmith Brown Books 255-257 Liverpool Road, London N1 1LX United Kingdom 1995 ISBN 1 897884 16 8 Pages 29-30 THE REGIMENT THAT VANISHED Cloud-shaped UFO abducts a British unit at Gallipoli TYPE: Close encounters of the fourth kind PLACE: Suvla bay, Gallipoli, Turkey DATE: 28 August 1915 BACKGROUND In one of the most famous and ill-starred actions of World War 1, French, British, Australian and New Zealand troops first landed on the Gallipoli peninsula in April 1915, in an attempt to seize Turkish forts overlooking the narrow Dardanelles entrance to the Black Sea. The mysterious events related below were first reported as late as 1965. THE EVENTS According to three eyewitnesses serving with the New Zealand Army, 28 August 1915 was clear and bright but for a group of clouds that, oddly, did not move despite a breeze of about 4-5 mph (6-8 km/h). One cloud - an 'absolutely dense, solid-looking structure' - seemed to be resting on the ground across a creek near Hill 60 on Suvla Plain. A battle was raging between Turkish and British troops for possession of the hill. The New Zealanders, whose post was on Rhododendron Spur, some 300 ft (100 m) above the hill, then observed the following: 'A British regiment, the First-Fourth Norfolk... marching up this sunken road or creek towards Hill 60. However, when they arrived at this cloud, they marched straight into it, with no hesitation, but no one ever came out to deploy and fight at Hill 60. About an hour later, after the last of the file had disappeared into it, this cloud very unobtrusively lifted off the ground and, like any cloud or fog would, rose slowly.... As soon as the singular cloud had risen to their level, they all moved away northwards.... In a matter of about three quarters of an hour they had all disappeared from view. 'The regiment mentioned is posted as "wiped out" and on Turkey surrendering in 1918, the first thing Britain demanded of Turkey was the return of this regiment. Turkey replied that she had neither captured this regiment, nor made contact with it, and that she did not even know that it existed.... Those who observed this incident can vouch for the fact that Turkey never captured that regiment, nor made contact with it.' ASSESSMENT Records show that two of the three 'eyewitnesses' had been evacuated from Gallipoli by 28 August because of illness. The First-Fourth Norfolks was not a regiment but the First Battalion of the Fourth Norfolk Regiment. The unit did not disappear on that day or any other, but went on to fight with distinction in Gallipoli until the end of 1915, when it was evacuated. However, on 12 (not 28) August, the First Battalion of the Fifth Norfolk Regiment's Colonel, 16 officers and 250 men did vanish. They were in hot pursuit of the enemy when night fell; the next day, there was no trace of them. Sir Ian Hamilton, the commanding general, called the incident 'a very mysterious thing.' But they were operating over four miles (6 km) from the New Zealanders, and nowhere near Hill 60. New Zealand researcher I. C. McGibbon suggested that the memory of Frederick Reichardt, the main witness (who had indeed been on Rhododendron Spur), became confused. He concludes that at some point Reichardt did see soldiers disappear into a (normal) mist on the battlefield - for instance, one official report noted: 'By some freak of nature Suvla Bay and Plain were wrapped in a strange mist on the afternoon of 21 August.' He also probably heard of the 'disappearance' of some of the First-Fifth and conflated the two events. His imagination supplied the rest. In the early Eighties, however, one of Reichardt's sons stated that he had heard his father tell the story 'from the earliest days I can remember (I was born in 1932).' [PHOTO CAPTION] Troops go 'over the top' during the disastrous Gallipoli campaign of 1915. The disappearance of a Norfolk infantry unit's colonel, with 16 other officers and 250 men, during a battle in August 1915 has been promoted for years as a mass abduction by UFOs, but the grim truth is that at least half the missing men died in battle, and the rest were probably taken prisoner and shot in cold blood by their Turkish captors. The British, intent on fostering good relations with Turkey after the war, kept the soldiers' murder secret for many years - and so gave the UFO myth fertile ground in which to grow. _____ Drew Williamson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Brookesmith Smears Marcel From: DRudiak@aol.com [David Rudiak] Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 13:55:47 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:00:36 -0400 Subject: Brookesmith Smears Marcel I just picked up a copy of Peter Brookesmith's new book, "UFO: The Government Files." He spends an entire chapter debunking Roswell (in fact the whole book is one of debunkery). Particularly nasty are his statements about and accusations against Jesse Marcel, obviously swiped directly from Robert Todd and others like Philip Klass. I doubt if Brookesmith did any original research on any of this (see the very end of this post for another glaring example of Brookesmith's lack of originality). Below are some of Brookesmith's statements about Marcel, and my commentary on how Brookesmith is way off base: BROOKESMITH: "In December 1995 Robert Todd published the results of an elementary piece of detective work that no other Roswell researcher had thought to undertake." COMMENT: Jesse Marcel Jr. had attempted to get his father's military record for years, without success. Also refer to Steve Kaeser's recent post here on UFO Updates about his independent attempt to get Marcel's file and being told alternately that 1) It had been destroyed in a fire, and 2) been sent elsewhere and was not available. It's not as if Roswell researchers made no attempt to look into Marcel's record. They simply weren't allowed to. BROOKESMITH: "None of Marcel's claims stood up under scrutiny." COMMENT: Here we go. Please note below how none of Brookesmith's and Todd's charges stand up under scrutiny. BROOKESMITH: "His combat flying was limited to a passenger's job, as an observer for intelligence." COMMENT: This was Todd's assertion, nothing more, based on ZERO evidence. Marcel's two recorded air medals read: "For meritorious achievement while participating in sustained operational flight missions from [dates] in the Southwest Pacific area during which hostile contact was probable and expected. These operations consisted of bombing missions against enemy airdromes and installations and attacks on enemy naval vessels and shipping. The courage and devotion to duty displayed during these flights are worthy of commendation." Does that sound like combat missions under fire or what? BROOKESMITH: "His certainty about the high strangeness of the Roswell debris was based on his being 'acquainted with virtually every type fo weather-observation or radar tracking device being used by either the civilians or military.' ...He had no knowledge of radar tracking or weather balloons. As Todd points out, 'radar targets were a highly specialized piece of equipment unknown to most people except the relative handful... who used them.'" COMMENT: This is simply a LIE! Marcel's record very clearly indicates that he took an intensive month long radar intelligence course at Langley Field when he returned from the South Pacific at the end of the war. The course was 120 hours long and for which Marcel received at overall score of 88, rated "excellent." In fact, one of Marcel's job titles in his record was "Intell Photo-Radar Officer." Course work included "Basic Radar," "Scope Interpretation," "Radar Navigation," "Radar Bombing," "Target Study," "Mission Planning," "Radar Countermeasures," "Aircraft Recognition," and "Scope Photography." This IS in Marcel's record. Does this sound to anyone like he "Had no knowledge of radar tracking?" Where do Brookesmith and Todd get this crap? As a "Radar Intelligence" class, I bet the course also covered radar targets of various types, including weather balloon radar reflectors. It would be necessary to distinguish these from other possible radar targets, such as airplanes. Also, how on earth could Robert Todd possibly know that Marcel had never seen a weather balloon or radar reflector in all his years of service? Is the man psychic or something? Weather balloons were launched four times a day from every military base in the country, according to the 1947 newspapers. Presumably that also included a bomber base like Roswell. Radar reflectors were used at all military bases and also the civilian meteorological services, again according to the 1947 newsapers. No doubt a fair number of weather balloons were likewise launched in the South Pacific during the war when Marcel was a squadron intelligence officer (and would need to know current weather conditions), and afterwards when Marcel was part of Operation Crossroads. Yet in all this time, Marcel absolutely had never seen a radar target or even a weather balloon, says Robert Todd. We have his word on that. So what have we here? One very baldfaced LIE and a simple assertion of fact by Todd with ZERO evidence to back it up. BROOKESMITH: "Marcel's promotion to light colonel was in the reserve: it was never his active-service rank." COMMENT: And Marcel never said otherwise. He simply said he was promoted to Lt. Colonel after Roswell, which was TRUE. Interviewers such as Bill Moore addressed him by his active duty rank (Major), while noting that he was now a Lt. Colonel. I have never read anywhere were Marcel insisted on being addressed by his reserve rank of "Colonel." This is nothing but another completely frivolous attack on Marcel. BROOKESMITH: "There is absolutely no evidence that he was shot down in combat." COMMENT: More to the point, there is absolutely no evidence that he WASN'T shot down in combat. What we have here are just more unsubstantiated attacks based on Todd and Brookesmith's amazing psychic abilities. There are huge gaps in Marcel's record during his 29-1/2 months in the South Pacific, but presumably he didn't spend his time lying around on a beach. The record doesn't detail his missions, yet we know he flew them over a period of a year from his two recorded air medals. The attacks against Marcel are routinely based on such absences of evidence, one way or the other. And the Air Medals DO show that Marcel flew on COMBAT BOMBING missions where the Japanese were shooting back. What's so implausible about one of those missions getting shot down? That happens all the time in aerial combat. If Marcel had said he was shot down ten times in combat, then I might begin to wonder. But once isn't a fantastic claim at all. BROOKESMITH: "(like many other fantasists he claimed to be the sole survivor of the incident). COMMENT: This is another real juicy LIE by Brookesmith, who seems to be enjoying a "fantasist" life of his own as a "Roswell researcher," renowned psychic and expert psychoanalyst. Here's all that was said about the crash in Bob Pratt's transcription of his interview with Marcel, as recorded by Karl Pflock in "Roswell in Perspective": PRATT: Did everyone survive? MARCEL: All but one crashed into mountain. Now I'm going to take one very minor liberty here, the same as Karl Pflock did when he inserted bracked material into Marcel's transcripted responses, which were his interpretations of what Marcel meant. Marcel's manner of speech was very clipped, often dropping words and not completing sentences. I consider the following to be more in keeping with Marcel's overall speaking style. PRATT: Did everyone survive? MARCEL: All but one [--] crashed into mountain. The first interpretation of what Marcel said was that all but one other crew member crashed into the mountain and was killed. The alternate interpretation with the slight addition of punctuation into written text (the tape no longer exists), would indicate that everyone survived except for one crew member. However you interpret it, Marcel NEVER said he was the sole survivor of the crash. Evidence of "fantasism" indeed! Again, where the hell are these guys dreaming up this unbelievable nonsense? BROOKESMITH: "...[And there is no evidence] that he was even remotely involved in Truman's announcement of Soviet nuclear capability -- which was not made on the radio." COMMENT: Another LIE by Brookesmith and Todd. There IS evidence to that effect. Marcel was transferred to the Top Secret Special Weapons Program in Washington a year after Roswell, where he was made Officer in Charge of the War Room. This was the program designed to gather intelligence on whether the Soviets had exploded a nuclear device. So Marcel WAS in the program which provided the White House with the report that the Soviet's had a bomb. Further, according to his two evaluations there (he received high excellent ratings), he was in charge of a staff that evaluated new intelligence on Soviet nuclear capabilities and prepared staff briefings and reports for the higher brass. Marcel's evaluator singled out his outstanding presentation capability, his diverse technical and intelligence background, and noted he prepared special reports for the Commanding General of the program. So Marcel WAS in the right place at the right time. He had the job description and responsibilities of someone who WOULD prepare a special report on a Soviet blast that would eventually end up in the White House and would serve as the basis of a press release. He might not have gotten credit for the report because, like all such organizations, the technical specialists do most of the work, their work is then passed on up through the chain of command to those in charge who review it, then sign off on it in their own names. The ONLY thing that was demonstrably wrong about what Marcel remembered was that historically Truman did not read the press release over the radio. But you can bet others did in Truman's name. This would amount to nothing but a very minor memory error by Marcel 30 years after the fact. Of course, those so eager to smear Marcel's name have blown it up into some sort of monumental, egotistical lie. BROOKESMITH: "'Clearly Marcel had a problem with the truth,' Todd remarked with masterful self-control." COMMENT: "Clearly Todd and Brookesmith have a problem with the truth," I remarked with masterful self-control. BROOKESMITH: "Marcel's lies and grossly misleading statements amounts to rather more than a common vice among veterans, which is to elevate one or two wartime incidents to heroic proportions." COMMENT: Todd and Brookesmith's lies and grossly misleading statements amount to rather more than a common vice among debunkers, which is to elevate one or two minor memory errors or ambiguous statements by a witness into "evidence" of lying of monumental proportions. BROOKESMITH: "It is different in kind, because it is consistent and comprehensive in its distortions and untruths." COMMENT: Mindless, vicious debunkery is different in kind, because it is consistent and comprehensive in its distortions and untruths. BROOKESMITH: "It is a very long way from the tendency of many other combat veterens -- to say little or nothing at all about their experiences, except among their peers." COMMENT: More psychobabble nonsense based on NOTHING. I've had vets tell me their war stories, and I'm not a veteran. Some talk about it, some prefer not to. It's really that simple. Again, where does Brookesmith dream up such crap? Here's some more garbage from another section. BROOKESMITH: "The Legend of Jesse Marcel: Lt. Walter Haut, the 509th Bomb Group's public information officer, could not remember in 1995 exactly who had suggested using the terms 'flying disc' or 'saucer' in his press release of 8 July 1947, or whether he had even written the release himself." COMMENT: What Brookesmith leaves out here is that Haut has ALWAYS maintained that the press release came from Col. Blanchard and was released under his authority. He just can't remember if Blanchard dictated the information over the phone, or whether he picked up an already written release at Blanchard's office. Various other people back up Haut's contention that Blanchard had personally seen the debris, didn't know what it was, and authorized the release, perhaps even wrote it. There is currently NO evidence that Marcel wrote the release. BROOKESMITH: "However, a thoughtful reader of the [Roswell Daily] Record's lead story cannot help noticing that the human star of this sensational piece is none other than Jesse Marcel... COMMENT: Gee, what a surprise! A major participant in a news story being mentioned as a major participant. Did Marcel write the Daily Record story as well? The press release actually read that the sheriff first notified Marcel, not surprising since Marcel was Roswell head of intelligence. The other mention of Marcel was that "the disc" was "subsequently loaned by Major Marcel to higher headquarters. That information could easily have been written by either Haut or Blanchard. BROOKESMITH: " -- who was the first to hear of the 'saucer' story from Sheriff Wilcox. Did he write, or dictate, the press release?" COMMENT: And the sheriff was also mentioned in the initial press release as being involved. Does that mean he wrote or dictated it? I repeat, there is currently NO evidence that Marcel wrote the press release or personally authorized its release. Haut says it came from Blanchard's office. Blanchard may even have dictated it to him. Marcel had NO authority to authorize such a press release and he would have been disciplined in some way for insubordination had he tried. But there are NO negative marks in Marcel's record anywhere, before or after Roswell. It was noted in a later evaluation of Marcel by Blanchard that he was a team player who dutifully carried out the orders of his superior officers. BROOKESMITH: "It was certainly issued 'over the authority of Major J. A. Marcel.'" COMMENT: It certainly WAS NOT issued "over the authority of Major J. A. Marcel." Originally this nonsense was written by Philip Klass, but it's obvious that Brookesmith can't even put an original debunking argument together. The original press release DID NOT say that the disc was released 'over the authority of' Marcel. That is how the Roswell Daily Record reported it later that afternoon, not what the release said. Marcel was already in Fort Worth when the Record story came out. Such statements couldn't have come from him. The release claimed Marcel loaned it to higher headquarters, but Marcel lacked the personal authority to do this. Such authorization had to come from the base commander (Blanchard) or higher up in the chain of command. In fact, a few newspaper stories of the day stated that Blanchard ordered the debris to Fort Worth after conferring by telephone with Gen. Ramey. Think about it a moment. What was Marcel supposed to do -- commandeer a plane and fly the debris to Fort Worth all on his own? That's what no- brain debunkers want you to think. The debris was obviously NOT released "over the authority of Marcel." Sheesh! BROOKESMITH: "His looming presence and the bit-part alotted to Cavitt ('a detail') in the printed report point to him as the source of the flying-saucer phrases, especially in light of Newton's account of the scene at Fort Worth." COMMENT: "His looming presence..." Oh brother! This is nothing but propagandistic debunker writing. And Brookesmith's main point isn't even correct. Again Brookesmith can't even keep the press release and the Daily Record's story separated from one another. About the recovery the release merely says, "Action was immediately taken and the disc was picked up at the rancher's home." That's all folks. Nothing there about who was directly involved, is there? Certainly nothing about the egotistical "looming presence" of Marcel. Again, there is no way Marcel could be held responsible for how the Daily Record reported the story. How many times does this have to be stated? He wasn't even in Roswell at the time. Marcel also wasn't responsible for Cavitt not being mentioned. In fact, Cavitt's name would have been deliberately withheld from the press since he was not regular Army intelligence like Marcel, but in the Counter-Intelligence Corps, a much more secretive group. Later that evening Brazel mentioned that Marcel was accompanied out to Brazel's place by a man in "plain clothes," which would have been Cavitt. (The CIC wore plain clothes, which concealed their rank and minimized their military connection.) Does Brookesmith mention that Cavitt denied Marcel being involved in the inital recovery and denied even meeting Mac Brazel, contradicting the news stories of the day and both Marcel and Brazel? How was Cavitt supposed to find his "tiny" balloon crash in the middle of the desert without Brazel's help? Cavitt simply repeated the 1947 weather balloon story, not having been pre-briefed on the new, improved giant Mogul balloon. Why isn't Cavitt's credibility ever examined with the same scrutiny as Marcel's? It's obvious Brookesmith is no expert on the Roswell events and is just rehashing old debunkery from the likes of Klass, Todd, and others. Remember, Brookesmith in his previous book, published as recently as 1995, knew so little about Roswell and Marcel that he misidentified Irving Newton in a photo as Jesse Marcel! If Brookesmith had read even one book on Roswell he wouldn't have made such an incredibly stupid mistake. Now he's acting like he was Father Confessor to Marcel and knows the man psychologically from the inside out. BROOKESMITH: "Marcel's next documented appearance in the narrative is with the debris in General Ramey's office. the uncropped photographs taken at the time reveal clearly that the debris displayed by Marcel is exactly the same as that shown in the pictures with Irving Newton, General Ramey, and his chief of staff, Col. Thomas Dubose -- contrary to Marcel's claim that the 'real' wreckage was switched for something innocuous after his picture was taken." COMMENT: Like all Roswell debunkers, Brookesmith deliberately doesn't mention that Dubose, later an A.F. general, backed up Marcel 100% on this one. Dubose corroborated that a weather balloon was switched with the real debris. He said Ramey, or Gen. McMullen (Dept. Commander of the SAC), or Ramey's intelligence officer dreamed it up to "get the press of Ramey's back" and "put out the fire." Dubose also remembered that Ramey's public information officer, Major Cashon, took a picture of Marcel with the debris. Whether a separate picture of Marcel with the "real debris" exists is unknown, but it wouldn't be implausible that such a picture would be taken under the circumstances. Marcel made it quite clear in other interviews that the balloon debris shown in the pictures was "staged." Dubose had more to say, including that debris had been shipped to Fort Worth two days before, forwarded to Washington and then to Wright Field for analysis on McMullen's personal plane. Dubose said he was told the whole affair was taken direct to the White House, over what -- balloon debris? As for Irving Newton, many parts of his original story have changed substantially over the years. E.g., in the "Roswell Incident," he said Ramey directed him to his office, he identified the debris, was quickly dismissed, and rushed back to his unmanned weather station. He then stated it wasn't until some time AFTERWARDS that he learned that the whole thing was about a supposed crashed saucer. But that isn't the story Newton is telling today. In his Air Force interview he claimed he giggled at the so-called flying saucer as soon as he entered the room. How could he do that if initially he testified that he knew nothing about any flying saucer connection when called into the room? Later in OMNI magazine, he claimed Marcel chased him all over the room, in front of reporters no less, trying to convince him of "alien writing" and supertough foil debris. But initially Newton said nothing about any of this, certainly nothing about "alien writing" or being questioned or "chased" by Marcel, whom Newton didn't know. He only referred to a "Major" who was involved. In fact, Gen. Dubose stated it was Ramey's PIO, MAJOR Cashon (the one he says took Marcel's photo), who actually spoke to Newton. (It's also possible Cashon took Newton's photo with the radar reflector. That is currently the belief of the known photographer of the other Fort Worth photos, C. Bond Johnson who says he didn't take it, and thought it was Ramey's PIO. Therefore Newton likely DID interact with Cashon. Johnson was also the FIRST witness to ever comment on the smelly rubber weather balloon. Nobody BEFORE the alleged swap mentioned anything about a smell being associated with the debris, much less a very powerful one as Johnson described. ) In 1947 Newton told the press that the radar target he identified could have come from any of 80 weather stations around the country. In fact, an identical one had been recovered in Circleville, Ohio a few days earlier with photos of it in newspapers on July 6. A weather officer at the Clinton County Ohio Air Base, site of the Army Air Forces All-Weather Flying Center, told the press that the device was "used to take sounding by radar of the atmosphere. Every weather station in the country uses them." Another similar radar reflector was reported recovered in Adrian, Missouri on July 8. The next day after Newton's statement, various weather balloon launches were staged at military bases around the country. At least two of these show identical radar reflectors in Kansas City and Ohio being launched, the same as the supposedly "unique" Mogul radar reflector. (This is ignoring the phony Mogul launch staged at Alamogordo the same day, used to explain what Brazel found, which shows two obviously Mogul-style radar reflectors.) The military deliberately made the point in all these news stories, that it was these radar reflectors which were responsible all the flying disc reports over the entire nation. They said radar targets were used whenever more accurate wind information was needed, or when ordinary balloons couldn't be used, such as in cloudy weather. (This is probably the first documented national military debunking campaign of the flying saucers. In fact, the newspapers stated explicitly that the Army and Navy were making a concerted effort to stop all the flying saucer reports.) So Newton was absolutely correct in 1947 about the common use of these reflectors. Now, however, he is claiming they were used only overseas and on special projects such as Mogul -- again, another big change of story. It's obvious Newton has jumped on the debunking bandwagon, embellished his original story, and has changed his story on some key points. But you don't hear the debunkers questioning his credibility, only Marcel's. More importantly, there is other evidence besides the testimony of Dubose and Marcel that Newton never saw the original debris brought to Fort Worth (e.g., Johnson first noticing the rubber balloon smell). If so, then Newton is no longer a first-hand witness to the actual debris. He was nothing but an unwitting stooge brought in by Gen. Ramey to make an official weather balloon identification for the benefit of the press. BROOKESMITH: "Then he took some home and let his son handle piece of it (as Bill Brazel did too) powerfully argues that the material was neither extra-terrestrial nor classified. Marcel was an intelligence officer. He would not have been that indiscreet -- then or three decades later." COMMENT: Again Brookesmith pretends to be some sort of mindreader and an expert in psychology of military personnel. In the REAL world, not DebunkerFantasyLand, many people share confidences with their spouses and children, since they are among the people they most deeply trust. Others choose not to involve them. It's that simple. Marcel wasn't the only Roswell officer to have discussed the incident with his family. It is clear, e.g., from interviews with Blanchard's two wives that he discussed the matter with them at some time. He talked to other people as well. Sheridan Cavitt obviously spoke to his wife Mary, who continuously butted into his Air Force interview with some revealing statements to that effect. E.g., she said the Cavitts knew to keep their mouths shut, and couldn't understand why the Marcels would talk about it. Finally, the incident with Marcel's wife and son happened on his return from the debris field. He had been away from the base for over a day, and if the matter was officially classified at that point (as Dubose said it was), he wouldn't have known about it until he returned to the base. Marcel broke no rules. According to his son, Marcel afterwards told them not to discuss what had happened, and for 30 years that continued to be the case. Marcel only spoke out publicly after being sought out, not the other way around. And there is NO record of him ever being disciplined in any way for what happened at Roswell. Quite the contrary. Both Ramey and Blanchard praised him a year later as he was being transferred to Washington. (Ramey called him an "outstanding" intelligence officer.) "Indiscreet," bungling intelligence officers DON'T get promoted into highly sensitive, Top Secret positions afterwards, as Marcel was with the Special Weapons Program. The debunkers are scared to death to deal with this very important issue. BROOKESMITH: "In the Roswell legend, Marcel said nothing about the alien bodies that had been allegedly scattered in any one of five or six shifting sites, but still supposedly passing through the Roswell air base. It is curious that he failed to mention them, while having no qualms about broadcasting his other allegedly secret knowledge." COMMENT: Just more gross ignorance by Brookesmith. Over a three day period from July 6 to July 9, Marcel was at Roswell base for less than half a day. The rest of the time, Marcel was either on the debris field, in Fort Worth, or on a plane to and from Fort Worth. Therefore, it's hardly surprising that Marcel said nothing of "alien bodies" (unless somebody told him), since he was generally elsewhere and wouldn't have been involved in any such recovery after Brazel sauntered into town on July 6. BROOKESMITH: His concluding comments on Marcel: "The Key Man: To a large extent, from initial involvement and press release to his statements many years later, Marcel is the foundation stone of the Roswell incident." COMMENT: Like all Roswell debunkers, Brookesmith chooses to leave out everybody who corroborated Marcel's story (such as Dubose) including his debris descriptions and the events in Fort Worth. Roswell ISN'T just the testimony of one man. But the whole point of smearing Marcel and making him out to be the "key man" is to discredit the whole thing by discrediting Marcel alone, without having to consider the statements of others or the documentation that corroborate him. BROOKESMITH: "His reliability is crucial to the extra-terrestrialists' case. Yet he aggrandized most aspects of his life, not just his war record, to the point of losing touch with reality. If he acted true to form and exaggerated about the Roswell wreckage, what substance is left to the notion that something extraordinary fell to Earth in New Mexico in 1947?" COMMENT: Well I hope by now, people realize that Marcel wasn't the one who had lost touch with reality. Not a single one of the allegations against him has ever been conclusively proven. At best the evidence is extremely weak. In several cases, the allegations are simple lies or distortions, easily refuted from Marcel's own record or presentation of what was ACTUALLY said by Marcel or what is in the historical record. As for "reliability," "self-aggrandizement" and questionable conduct, people should pick up a copy of "Alien Worlds," by Reuben Stone, published 1993, and compare it to Brookesmith's later 1995 book, "UFOs, The Complete Sightings." Check out Stone's writeup of the Socorro/ Lonnie Zemora case, a following one dated 6 November 1967 in Hampshire, and the 1980 Cash-Landrum case. Then compare it to Brookesmith's writeup of the same three cases. Also check out Samara, 13 Dec. 1990 and the 1957 Antonio Villas-Boas abduction. You'll find that most of Brookesmith's accounts of these cases are copied virtually word for word from Stone's book. Perhaps Peter Brookesmith has an innocent explanation for this (e.g., he helped Stone), but until then maybe we shouldn't put too much credence into his second-guessing of the moral character of others.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Re: Shell's Brief Look at Korff's Roswell Book From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:34:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Shell's Brief Look at Korff's Roswell Book > Date: 17 May 97 10:19:58 EDT > From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> > To: BlindCopyReceiver:; > Subject: Kal Korff Kills AA Film --- No Way! > After much anticipation I finally got my copy of Kal Korff's book _The Roswell > UFO Crash: What They Don't Want You To Know_. First of all, the book is > deceptively packaged, since it would be impossible to know from reading anythi ng > on the dust jacket that this is an anti-Roswell book. The bio of Korff simply > states that he is "the author of _Spaceships of the Pleiades: The Billy Meier > Story_. He is also president and CEO of TotalResearch, a group dedicated to > studying the mysteries and phenomena of both the normal and paranormal realms. > He lectures widely and has appeared on such popular shows as "Larry King Live! " > and "Encounters". > I predict that many will buy this book thinking it is pro-Roswell, based on > brief perusal of the dust jacket info, and be very distressed at what they > actually get. Hi Bob, The same can be said for Korff's anti-Meier book. Nothing in its title or on its dust cover would give the reader any hint that it's an attempt to debunk the case. In this respect, Korff seems to have learned something about selling books since his earlier stab at it in 1981 when he published, under Bill Moore's auspices, _The Meier Incident: The Most Infamous Hoax in Ufology_. Or perhaps it was Prometheus Press that clued Korff into how to pose the title. > Anyway, I have so far only glanced through the balance of the book. > I wish to comment at this point only on the short, fourteen-page, > chapter on the Alien Autopsy film. .... Thanks for taking the time to have refuted all those points of Korff's. Those of us who used to be on the Encounters Forum of CompuServe will recognize that his points that make any sense at all have long since been discussed there and settled. Unfortunately, it would probably take more than a one-volume book for you or another to carefully refute all of Korff's false and misleading claims you're likely to come across, and there's no market for anything like that; hence Korff can get away with it except for those who follow the Internet. If experience holds, Korff will not try to answer your explanations, but will ignore them and perhaps try a little character assassination. Let's hope that your background is as pure as the driven snow! Jim Deardorff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 'Dear BUFORA Member' From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 08:23:54 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:38:13 -0400 Subject: 'Dear BUFORA Member' From: "Matthew Williams" <truthseekers@celtic.co.uk> To: <phil@sahara.demon.co.uk>, <ghost@dial.pipex.com>, <el51@dial.pipex.com> Subject: Dear BUFORA member, Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 15:08:18 +0100 Dear BUFORA member, READ THIS CAREFULLY, THIS AFFECTS YOU AND THE WAY YOUR ORGANISATION IS REPRESENTED! I am currently canvassing for people who are in opposition to Mr Philip Mantle taking up position on the BUFORA council with duty of Press Officer. There are many people in BUFORA who are opposed to this but we need to get your name in a petition to make any move against Mr Mantle in an attempt to either see him resign from THIS PRESS OFFICER POSITION or to be deposed by way of a vote of no confidence. For those of you who know why there are objections we will not go into any great detail but we believe that Mr mantles involvement in the Santilli footage and his connections with Ray Santilli and Michael Hesseman (who is another blind believer in the footage) - both Mantle and Hesseman proclaim the footage to be real with no proof other than a gut feeling. ***We can do without this sort of stupidity in UFOlogy especially when Mr Mantle was put across on TV and Radio as a BUFORA representative - whilst he maintains that this was not his fault but instead the fault of the journalists in misrepresenting him, on many occasions Mr mantle was happy to be put forward as the main BUFORA representative, having been warned not to represent the footage in a positive manner but to use a balanced view. He ignored these instructions from BUFORA council with the effect that BUFORA were seen in the medias eye as if saying the footage was real. *** We feel this is an unacceptable action on behalf of Mr Mantle and we wish to see him out of a position in direct contact with the press where he can DO HARM to the credibility of BUFORA. Indeed many are worried that Mr Mantles continued promotion of the Santilli Alien footage is because he has vested interests in keeping the story alive by way of his writing a book on the subject. This book is due out soon. We are worried that he will again use his position at BUFORA to sell his book - a situation which CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN. We also feel that the way that Mr Mantle was voted in was unfair as no members of BUFORA knew that a press officers position was available so could not put themselves forward. This was because the council kept these facts about the position to themselves and then only allowed certain members the ability to apply for the position by way of a one man selection panel, before council voting. In order to stop such unfair practices happening again myself and Richard Conway have moved to be elected to the council to see that there is no complacency to important matters of election of officers in the future. These points were raised at the last BUFORA AGM by myself. FOR NOW WE NEED YOUR SUPPORT WE NEED YOUR NAME TO PUT ON A PETITION. SEND ME AN EMAIL WITH YOUR NAME ADDRESS AND BUFORA MEMBERSHIP NUMBER AND A ONE SENTENCE NOTE SAYING THAT YOU OPPOSE PHILIP MANTLES POSITION AS BUFORA PRESS OFFICER. Please note that we do not wish to remove Mr Mantle from the council - simply from the press officers position. ACT NOW!!!! PLEASE REPLY BY THE RETURN OF EMAIL AND TELL ANY OTHER BUFORA MEMBER ABOUT THIS ACTION AS WE CANNOT CONTACT ALL BUFORA MEMBERS. WE ARE RELYING ON *YOU!* MATTHEW WILLIAMS UFO researcher and Journalist EMAIL: truthseekers@celtic.co.uk Search for other documents from or mentioning: el51 | truthseekers |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Re: 'Alien Autopsy' Problems - According to Korff From: RobIrving@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:30:46 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:59:11 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Alien Autopsy' Problems - According to Korff > Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:42:17 +0000 > From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'Alien Autopsy' Problems - According to Korff >>> How have you dealt with that? > Dear Rob, > I've mentioned the film canister labels in this posting and what is > depected on one of them. There are some things that I can not answer nor > can you, the only person that can is the man who shot the film. Fake or > genuine, someone shot the film, hence there could well be and probably is > a cameraman. I'd like to discuss the problems highlighted in my posting > and your comments on them, if you are qualified to comment, would be > appreciated. Slippery, but hardly an answer to the question asked. You tell us that you have dealt with certain questions in your book, implying balanced answers, but what you really mean is that you've dealt with various 'inconsistencies' by ignoring them. With regard to the seals, what you fail to mention (as does Korff, apparently) is that evidence exists that the seals were _designed_ after the date supposedly written on the labels by the cameraman. Okay, so this might not actually prove anything, but it does warrant discussion. After researching this, about a year ago I emailed you information and full text of the documents I received from the DoD. I don't expect balance from you and Michael, but don't patronise the rest of us by expecting that we only accept half the information on offer. Rob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Green Lights? From: livesey@trump.net.au (Stuart Livesey) Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 06:59:34 GMT+1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 17:30:16 -0400 Subject: Green Lights? I am interested in hearing from anyone who has encountered the type of UFOs that my wife and I saw in March last year. We were driving home, along a highway around 2100 when our car was "buzzed" by two green lights. At first we thought they were bolides/shooting stars but when they both rose to clear a footbridge, that spanned the highway, and then dropped back to their previous height we knew we were looking at something unexplained. Since then I have been looking for other instances like ours but I haven't found anything that quite fits what we saw. I would also like to see some input regarding UFO demographics. Can we begin to put together a list of the places where UFOs are seen most frequently and can we draw any conclusions from this? Stuart Livesey
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 'Riley Air'? From: tHrec <threc@li.net> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:38:25 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 17:32:19 -0400 Subject: 'Riley Air'? Has anyone heard of a place, thing, or anything to do with "Riley Air". Thanks for your time
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Re: ORTK Report on Phoenix, AZ, City Meeting From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 17:46:44 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 20:09:18 -0400 Subject: Re: ORTK Report on Phoenix, AZ, City Meeting >Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:28:45 -0400 >From: Richard Motzer <RFMmars@AOL.COM> >Subject: Re: [Fwd: UFO UpDate: ORTK Report on Phoenix, AZ, City Meeting] >To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Richard Motzer wrote, >That meeting was helded at Village Labs were I presented our findings that >the lights the night of 3-13-97 were FLARES over and behind the Estrella >Mountains and not over the City of Phoenix. You bet when Extra ran the >>story there was not a mention of this. According to my sources (Tom King & Bill Hamilton} it's their opinion that these objects were not 'flares'. Can you please share with us how you arrived at _your_ findings? If they _were_ flares then they're flares. I'm curious - what information or tests led you to your conclusion? >This does not explain the V formation that night with I have the original >source tape shot on HI 8 I have copies of video taken from several, different vantage points that clearly show this 'open V formation' of objects hovering at low altitude directly over downtown Phoenix. Many are still waiting for an explanation for that one. I'm also curious why there has been practically no mention of these events anywhere in the national media. According to military sources at Luke AFB (contacted by several local news operations), no flights, manouvers or tests of any kind (including 'flares') had taken place over Phoenix on the night in question. During the event, (the mass sighting of the 'open V formation' over Phoenix) a pilot radioed the tower at Phoenix airport reporting that one of the objects was passing directly over him and in fairly close proximity. The tower personnel (according to two local Phoenix newscasts) reported back to the pilot that nothing (except for the reporting aircraft) showed on their radar in the pilots immediate vicinity! Has anyone from MUFON spoken to either the pilot or the tower personnel on duty that night? This is important testimony because they are competent professional witnesses and the lack of a blip on radar is significant. Is any work being formally done by MUFON AZ to investigate these reports on behalf of the rest of us who can't be there to do it ourselves? I'm surprised that you didn't mention _all_ the other material that's available, and a lot harder to explain. The numerous close-up daylight sightings that have been recorded in Phoenix have yet to be properly studied or explained. 'Flares' may account for the nightime sighting of the 13th, but the formidable and compelling daylight-video material has yet to be addressed. And all of that cannot be dismissed because one nights footage may have been 'flares'. This *has to be stated clearly* in order not to mislead people that _all_ of the Phoenix sightings are so easily explainable. *Some* of those things are 'somebody elses' aircraft. Whether that somebody else is our own military (which I doubt because it doesn't make sense for them to test secret aircraft right over the heart of downtown Phoenix) or, these things are from someplace else. Either way, it's a *can't ignore* situation. I'm sure we agree on that point. John Velez (Speaking for myself) * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** * Search for other documents from or mentioning: jvif | rfmmars |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Re: The disappearing regiment in WWI From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:43:13 -0400 Subject: Re: The disappearing regiment in WWI > Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:30:41 -0400 (EDT) > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: werd@interlog.com (Drew Williamson) > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The disappearing regiment in WWI > >Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:03:08 -0700 (PDT) > >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >Subject: The disappearing regiment in WWI > >A friend was asking me if I knew where this large-scale abduction event > >is written up within the UFO literature. I came across it years ago and > >can't remember now where I saw it. Can someone on the List? > Jim, > I don't know where you saw it, but here is the account as related in Peter > Brookesmith's, UFO: The Complete Sightings, which includes a possible > (Earthly) explaination. Thanks very much for this, Drew, and thanks to two others who mentioned the event as being connected with deployment of forces near Galliopi, Turkey. The event interests me, with an atmospheric sciences background, as the "cloud" in question is said to have been an "absolutely dense, solid-looking structure." In another account I ran across, it was called "a strange formation of lenticular clouds." In Peter Brookesmith's account the cloud is said to have been resting on the ground across a creek near Hill 60. However, lenticular clouds, when not high in the sky above irregular terrain, frequently cap mountain peaks, but not hills, and certainly do not engulf a creek, which is lower down yet. A fog doesn't fit the descriptions, but if it had been a fog, perhaps a marine fog in August, one wouldn't see such a packet of fog rise and then move off; and one could not then explain why the witnesses themselves weren't enshrouded in fog then too when it had risen to their level. And one report in Brookesmith's account placed the event in the afternoon, by which time any fog over land in August would have burned off. But the date of the event is sufficiently uncertain and the time too long ago for us probably to ever know what really happened. Due to this and the bizarreness of the event, what various non-witnesses conclude overrules what the witnesses reported. Jim Deardorff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Re: Astronomer Drakes' ET Announcement? From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 00:22:00 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 20:11:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Astronomer Drakes' ET Announcement? >From: TotlResrch@aol.com >Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 03:37:47 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Astronomer Drakes' ET Announcement? >From: Kal K. Korff >Date: Thu, 14 May 1997 >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Astronomer Darkes' ET Announcement? >I recently read in a Dutch newspaper that famed Astronomer Frank Drake is on >record as saying more or less, after translaton into English: "Unfortunately >up to now we haven't received any signals coming from extraterrestrial life >forms. Despite this, we do have evidence of the existence of extraterrestrial >civilizations." >Drake is alleged to have made these remarks after commenting both on the >number of new planets that have been discovered on a new series of very >powerful radio telescopes that will come "on line" in the year 2001 and >through 2003. These new radio telescopes will purportedly increase our >ability to "eavesdrop" on the universe 150,000 times! As far as I know - and I have read this in De Volkskrant - he has said that the new radio telescope system that was proposed by Dutch astronomers last week will be advantageous to the search for ETs. That was the quote. It was about the Square Kilometer Array Interferometer (SKAI) that will, if built, consist of several groups of hundreds of flat panel sensors arrayed together in fields, distributed over an area of hundreds of kilometers. Together the thousands of these panels would bring a giant leap in reception power. The people of the Dutch radio telescope system at Westerbork, who proposed this, were thinking of locating the system partly in the Netherlands partly in Germany, which gives you an idea how big they are thinking. But it was speculated that Australia or China were suitable as well with the head office at Westerbork. I don't think 2001 and 2003 were suggested as the years of getting online, if I remember correctly it would be somewhat later. I have read in two Dutch papers about it and they mention that the system will increase our ability to eavesdrop a hundredfold. But this is incorrect, because it simply depends on how many panels you install and how powerful the computers and software are that process the data. The SKAI is the limit, so to speak. Drake was apparently asked for his opinion about the proposal. >Does anyone know about this and if Drake REALLY said this and IF >he DID, what "evidence" he's referring to?? I know of no remark from him about evidence, not in the original reports not in a background that was printed last Saturday. But what paper did you read and on what date was Drake quoted? Since I am a journalist myself I can easily ask the reporter about it if you want. __________________________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Leiden, The Netherlands \___________________________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Re: ORTK Report on Phoenix, AZ, City Meeting From: xalium@netwrx.net Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 17:33:55 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 21:14:06 -0400 Subject: Re: ORTK Report on Phoenix, AZ, City Meeting >From: EdKomarek@aol.com >Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:59:20 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: ORTK COMFIDENTIAL REPORT ON AZ CITY COUNCIL UFO MEETING >ORTK confidential report on AZ City Council UFO meeting >ORTK Bulletin Editor: I recieved this report from a confidential source this >evening and hopefully others will be able to confirm this story. This person >is known to me. >Sincerely, Ed Komarek I was at that meeting, some of the things described from ORTK aren't true. Don't believe all of it. Not really in the mood to go into details on the meeting as I thought it was sort of boring. Just another debriefing for someone. Maybe Bill Hamilton will write a report on it after he gets back in town. I'm not much for a writer. Tom King AZ Dir SKYWATCH INT'L E-Mail xalium@netwrx.net OVNI CHAPTERHOUSE http://personal.netwrx.net/xalium/ufovideo.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 'Tent Footage' and 'First Autopsy' Stills From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 21:35:16 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 22:17:11 -0400 Subject: 'Tent Footage' and 'First Autopsy' Stills With the kind assistance of a friend in Italy, I have been able to acquire a copy of the recently released video "Autopsie Di Alieni?" (Volume Duo). This features the "tent footage" which Ray Santilli and Co. have never previously released. I'm not sure if this release has been sanctioned by them and it's of no relevance. Part of the footage had also previously been "pirated" on a video called "penetrating the web 2", released in the UK. The footage on "penetrating the web 2" is brief, lasting for 1 minute and 37 seconds. The new release runs for 5 minutes and 35 seconds. And from what I can make out, they're different, both being part of a sequence which runs for 7 minutes and 12 seconds. The videos originally given by Ray Santilli to Colin Andrews and Philip Mantle were apparently some 7 minutes in length. Both these videos conceivably contain all of that same footage. Why the pirated extract is missing from the new release, and vice-versa, I don't know. The new footage has slightly better contrast, but is still murky. The entire film seems to consist of material being cut from what purports to be a body, lying underneath a white sheet on a table. It's filmed in a dark environment, with a lamp suspended over the table. The two people performing the procedures are at the far side of the table. They are wearing white coats and although not disguised, are not identifiable in these copies. The person furthest from the camera is cutting the material and hands it to the other person standing next to them. This second person, who seems to be female, examines the material, sometimes holding it up to the lamp, and then turns around to place it in an unseen location at around ground level. As she turns around and bends down, we can see that the white coat is full length. And that's really all there is to it. I'll have a more detailed look at it tomorrow. There are no obvious breaks in filming and the camera is steady, presumably tripod mounted. I say "what purports to be a body", because we can only see two feet sticking out of the sheet, at the end nearest the camera, the right hand, and the head at the top end of the table. No facial details can be seen. I've also now seen the "first autopsy" stills released in Italy and these indicate that the body in the other, unreleased, "autopsy" film, has the same bulbous thighs and stomach. There's no full-body image, or a picture of the head and shoulders, so it's difficult to make any further comparisons. It does however appear that the actors/attendants are disguised/protected with the same type of suits. One further point, the "body" in the tent footage doesn't appear to have the bulbous thighs and stomach. The sheet which covers the body shows no evidence of this. It's questionable if there is in fact a body under the sheet. Still no reason why the "tent footage" wasn't the inspiration for the "first autopsy", which was a dress rehearsal for the final release. James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 17 Richard Motzer and CSICOP From: xalium@netwrx.net [Tom King] Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 18:18:34 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 22:03:20 -0400 Subject: Richard Motzer and CSICOP Yes, its true the UFO researcher Richard Motzer was at the meeting for only a few minutes on 5-14-97. I believe most researchers laughed at this idea the sightings known as event #3 were flares. He came in with a flimsy report and claimed he could "prove" they were flares. His report explained next to nothing. To understand why he may have come up with these theories we must look back into his past "research?" The newest list of Motzers' 180 degree turns on UFO cases. 1. Tim Edwards, Salida footage, Motzer said it was real and very good footage. Later he changes his story to optics inside the camera. Soon afterwords he 180's and says its a spider web... 2. Tom Kings, Phoenix footage of a clyinder. Motzer obtained a copy from me and in December of 1995 he went to Channel 15 in Phoenix with it. Richard was claiming he shot my footage and was taking credit for the video.(Sound familar?). I jumped Richard about this after I found out what happened and he claimed it was an accident. I have the news copy to prove he did this. Then he 180's the footage and says its a spider web... 3. Russia footage, UFO video of a clyinder taped in Russia. Richard believed this was a real event too. Then after he believes spider webs can explain everything the same theory now applies to the Russian footage. 4. March 13, 1997, UFOs over Phoenix. Richard was busy collecting all the videos he could on these sighting. He then sat on all these videos and didn't share any copies with local researchers. Then we start hereing FOX and other networks have all the footage less than 2 weeks after the 13th. Apparently he was sending the footage to the networks because hes the only one who has all the footage. He has said several times to the media that these lights couldn't have been flares. Then he has a rare opportunity to present the UFO data to a city official and Richard comes to debunk the story with flares. What kind of researcher does this? Theres lots of eyewitness testimony about this, including flare video, airtraffic controllers, pilots, military experts, and computer evidence to prove they weren't flares. 5 airtraffic controllers saw and it said it wasn't flares, two of them were on the "Extra" show. Nobody believes they're flares, except Motzer, not even the Luke Air Force Base believes it. You see there are about 5 videos on the night of March 13th including my video. Most of these videos are of Event #3 at 10:00 p.m. over the Estrella Mountains. Only one video was shot of Event #1, the V-formation that flew down the state. I have talked to this person and agreed not to reveal any infomation about their identity. He would only say he turned his "Event #1" video turned over to Richard Motzer and it's his now. He wants nothing to do with the UFO community or media and I respected that wish. So after Richard debunks the other 4 videos of Event #3 that leaves only Event #1 left, his video. I will also make a note that his sudden 180 turns on UFO cases in Phoenix have absolutely nothing to do with Bill Hamilton's recent resignation as Asst. State Dir. of MUFON. Nor does it have anything to do with Mr. Hamilton and I becoming members of Skywatch International. Many people in Phoenix are wondering who is this guy? Where did he come from? and is he in CSICOP? Tom King AZ Dir SKYWATCH INT'L E-Mail xalium@netwrx.net OVNI CHAPTERHOUSE http://personal.netwrx.net/xalium/ufovideo.htm
The UFO UpDates Archive Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 18 Phone conversation with Jorge Martin (Puerto Rico) From: Francisco Lopez <d005734c@dc.seflin.org> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:47:20 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 01:26:53 -0400 Subject: Phone conversation with Jorge Martin (Puerto Rico) I talked yesterday by phone with Ufologist Jorge Martin, from Puerto Rico. Jorge publish the Spanish language magazine Evidencia OVNI. He had the courtesy of dedicating some time to this conversation, even though he is mourning his teen age son. Our condolences to him in this personally tragic moment. He explained me about a group, seemly para-military called UFO, which dress in black uniforms and conduct exercises, had been doing things that, according to Jorge, are discrediting UFOlogy in the Island, like fabricating incidents to have them debunked by the media. He believes that this group might have links to the military and/or other US government agencies operating in the Island. They were the ones behind the announcement of the allegued UFO crash in Puerto Rico. The fact that members from this list under oath and links to the military and intelligence aparatus had been privately warning about events like this (even pin pointing locations) for about a year now, lead me to believe that many of these incidents might be staged for discrediting or controlling the flow of credible information. Of course, this could be the almost random outcome of things flowing from the actions of compartmentalized agencies. Among the things JM told me during the conversation, are the continuing aparitions of the Chupacabras, now with some company [grey like creatures] and humans victimized and mutilated during incidents in which UFOs apear and take cows and other animals and dissect them throwing the remains in the fields. A curious thing is the aparition of black helicopters and apparently military personnel in black uniforms without markings following the creatures. In another incident JM commented, a UFO with a set of what seemed as turbines was seen with two other UFOs. He believes that this might be related to some sort of reverse engineering program. Finally, JM told me about a second set of meeting between the PR governor, Harvard Medical School graduate, Pedro Rosello and the US South command. The first set of conversations are related to the transfer of the South Command from Panama to Puerto Rico. During the second round of conversations, in a ship between Vieques [twenty miles east and west of the Virgin Islands] and the main Island, a huge UFO passed over the ship and entered the ocean. The information came alleguedly from close persons to Governor Rosello and reliable contacts of Jorge Martin. According to JM, Governor Rosello, thinks the UFOs are real, but will not make any comment and less announcement unless the US government do it first. Jorge Martin authorized me to post these comments from the phone conversation we had. As always, use critical sense.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 18 Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 00:13:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 01:10:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? UFO UpDates - Toronto wrote: > > Date: 17 May 97 08:30:46 EDT > From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? > < snip > > > It could be argues that 'black' government is extremely good at keeping > secrets, but then any secret produced so far has had a maximum shelf > life of around thirty years, not a good record. Ufology has been around > for forty, and very little has come forward in terms of direct evidence > that government agencies, any government agencies, have anything but a > nodding aquaintance with the wider phenomenon. Thirty years, either you are a deliberately spreading incorrect information or don't bother to read the reports of the government's own committee handling the issues of secrecy and declassification. Read the Moynihan committee reports or at least the news coverage of it. By the way the last publicly reported oldest material still held classified dates back to the early 1900's. Oh and as to the government only having a "nodding acquaitance" with the UFO phenomenon - that's either ignorance or intentional deception, e.g. you are forgetting that prominent scientists such as Dr. Edward Teller were involved in researching the "green fireball" problem (Project Twinkle), the CIA's own declassified documents refer to its UFO experts and the NSA dispatched a agent of its own to investigate the Hudson Valley sightings in the 1980's (this was documented by Dr. Hynek in his book Night Siege); Ray Fowler documented that the Army Medical Intelligence unit researched the Coyne helicopter incident with long term followup studies - this is just skimming the surface. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself some history of the government's research and involvement in the phenomenon. > Rather, ufology has descended into the realms of politics and personality > cults that seek to promulagate a given viewpoint rather than a wider > understanding of the mechanisms involved, be they TSTs, Nuts and Bolts, > Psychological, dimensional, ad naueseum... I see, your ignoring the history of the phenomenon and goverment involvement and research into it is not a political act. That's some logic! > I'd say I'm sick of it all, but I enjoy it too much. Except spreading incorrect information about the history of the government's involvement. > James A Diss > ---------------------- Gary Alevy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 18 Re: Richard Motzer and CSICOP From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 02:28:19 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 08:44:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Richard Motzer and CSICOP >From: xalium@netwrx.net [Tom King] >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Richard Motzer and CSICOP >Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 18:18:34 EST Tom King writes, >Yes, its true the UFO researcher Richard Motzer was at the meeting for >>only a few minutes on 5-14-97. I believe most researchers laughed at this >>idea the sightings known as event #3 were flares. <snip> I don't know if you read my last post, but I have asked him to tell us how he arrived at his conclusion. Let's give all a chance to see why he thinks as he does and how he justifys his finding. If it's BS we'll (all) smell it right away. >Richard was claiming he shot my footage and was taking credit for the >>video.(Sound familar?). I jumped Richard about this after I found out >what >happened and he claimed it was an accident. I have the news copy to >prove >he did this.(snip) Tommy, it's important to publish a copy of this news piece. If this guy Motzer has done (any) of the things that you accuse him of, the rest of the UFO community needs to know about it. This is as serious an accusation in terms of affecting Motzer's future in UFOlogy as anyone can level. If the news copy bears you out, then this guy is finished, at least in terms of his credibility and future as a UFO investigator. If we don't police ourselves then we're all just dead in the water, and sitting ducks for opportunists. (Although many would rightfully argue that such is the current state of affairs in UFOlogy anyway! <G>) >4. March 13, 1997, UFOs over Phoenix. Richard was busy collecting all the >videos he could on these sighting. He then sat on all these videos and >didn't share any copies with local researchers. Then we start hereing FOX >and other networks have all the footage less than 2 weeks after the 13th. >Apparently he was sending the footage to the networks because hes the only >one who has all the footage. He has said several times to the media that >these lights couldn't have been flares. Shades of Dr Greer! This is one that really ticks me off because one of the things that I believe strongly in (I know that you do as well) is the open exchange of information and any evidence connected to this phenomenon. It is 'news' that affects us all, and the hoarding of information is tantamount to supression and should be treated as such. Again, if true, this man should be drummed out of the corp. Strip him of his UFO books and buttons! <G> >Many people in Phoenix are wondering who this guy is? Where did he come >from? And, is he in CSICOP? After hearing all of this, I'd like to know who Mr Motzer is myself! Please keep us all posted as to the 'doings' in Phoenix, and keep us informed about developments connected to the mass sighting. More folks than you would imagine are interested and paying close attention. John Velez ================================================== Personal comment. The e-mail that was originally circulated by Ed Komarek re: Phoenix, was the worst report of information to come down the pike since Christ left Chicago. No names, no info, no nothing, other than rumor, speculation and another opportunistic shot at the character of his 'favorite meat', Kal Korff, the **Karla of the Intelligence Community according to Ed. I asked them (both) publicly to please leave me out of their (e-mail) mutual smearfest. Much to his credit Kal Korff has respected my wishes in this matter and I want the man to know that I appreciate it. Ed Komarek hasn't quite gotten the message. Ed, please,...unsubscribe me to your (completely unsolicited) private e-mailings. I already have quite enough on my plate without having to push off all the 'beans' you keep piling onto it! No disrespect or insult intended, but I have rarely found anything of real value in them anyway! You're a lot like a politician that way, you talk a lot but never manage to say much. I guess some folks would consider that a 'marketable commodity', I do not. <G> Speaking strictly for myself, Citizen Velez ** Ref's to: "Tinker, tailor, soldier, spy!" John Le Carre. An excellent spy novel to add to your summer reading list. Le Carre *is* a bit long winded but this cat can spin one hell of a yarn, a real page turner. :) * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 18 Re: 'Alien Autopsy' Problems - According to Korff From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:06:14 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 08:56:47 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Alien Autopsy' Problems - According to Korff > From: RobIrving@aol.com > Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:30:46 -0400 (EDT) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'Alien Autopsy' Problems - According to Korff > > Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:42:17 +0000 > > From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'Alien Autopsy' Problems - According to Korff > >>> How have you dealt with that? > > Dear Rob, > > I've mentioned the film canister labels in this posting and what is > > depected on one of them. There are some things that I can not answer nor > > can you, the only person that can is the man who shot the film. Fake or > > genuine, someone shot the film, hence there could well be and probably is > > a cameraman. I'd like to discuss the problems highlighted in my posting > > and your comments on them, if you are qualified to comment, would be > > appreciated. > Slippery, but hardly an answer to the question asked. > You tell us that you have dealt with certain questions in your book, > implying balanced answers, but what you really mean is that you've > dealt with various 'inconsistencies' by ignoring them. > With regard to the seals, what you fail to mention (as does Korff, > apparently) is that evidence exists that the seals were _designed_ > after the date supposedly written on the labels by the cameraman. > Okay, so this might not actually prove anything, but it does warrant > discussion. After researching this, about a year ago I emailed you > information and full text of the documents I received from the DoD. > I don't expect balance from you and Michael, but don't patronise the > rest of us by expecting that we only accept half the information on > offer. > Rob Dear Rob, You will see from Bob Shell's posting that the DoD seals issue has been dealt with. As for our book you might like to read it first before you comment on it. Philip.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 18 Re: Re: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> Date: 18 May 97 07:31:35 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:02:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Re: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! >Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:50:18 +0200 (MET DST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! Henny wrote: >Which is just another way to say that Kal Korff is indeed >a debunker. I what way? Exposing false claims? Yes. Gainsayer to a larger audience. No. The distinction lies in the direct translation of the terms used within context, rather than arbitarily supplying labels in an effort to pigeonhole everyone into two orderly ranks awaiting the 'off', so to speak. There is already enough 'us and them' in this field without confusing the issue by assigning everyone a department in the military-industrial complex. However, I would like first dibs on an office with a view. James A Diss ---------------------- HEALTH WARNING: Care Should Be Taken When Lifting This Product, Since Its Mass, and Thus Its Weight, Is Dependent on Its Velocity Relative to the User. --------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 18 Re: 'Alien Autopsy' Problems - According to Korff From: RobIrving@aol.com Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:52:57 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 11:34:43 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Alien Autopsy' Problems - According to Korff > Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:06:14 +0000 > From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'Alien Autopsy' Problems - According to Korff Philip, > As for our book you might like to read it first before you comment on it. Cheeky monkey. Were my comments inaccurate? Of course I've read it. Rob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 18 Re: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 15:54:29 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 11:42:38 -0400 Subject: Re: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! >Date: 18 May 97 07:31:35 EDT >From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! >>Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:50:18 +0200 (MET DST) >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! >Henny wrote: >>Which is just another way to say that Kal Korff is indeed >>a debunker. >I what way? Exposing false claims? Yes. >Gainsayer to a larger audience. No. Look, what I meant was that Kal Korff is only occupied with exposing false claims. That is: false according to him. Whether Kal is a debunker or not I don't know. But it is interesting to note that he spends all of his time on writing stuff that discredits cases while ignoring - or not taking seriously - the evidence that would support them. The question why he does this will keep coming back to him unless he answers it. __________________________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Leiden, The Netherlands \___________________________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 18 Publisher Needs 'Help' From: drjackryan@juno.com (John P Ryan) Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 11:15:51 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 12:07:00 -0400 Subject: Publisher Needs 'Help' To all that post and read messages here, a friend of mine needs your help. Delta Publishing is working on a new book about Extraterrestrials and UFOs. They need your computer photos for their book, and they will give you the credit. Even if the photo wasn't taken by you, still send it, they need as many as they can get. If you would like to be a part of this, e-mail your pictures and stories to Delta2121@aol.com. If you have any questions for me feel free to e-mail me. Dr. John P. Ryan U.S. Naval Academy Annapolis, Maryland (DrJackRyan@juno.com)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 18 Re: Richard Motzer and CSICOP From: Jason DeGraf <gilgamesh@cyberconnect.com> Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 06:53:52 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 11:59:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Richard Motzer and CSICOP >From: xalium@netwrx.net [Tom King] >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Richard Motzer and CSICOP >Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 18:18:34 EST >Yes, its true the UFO researcher Richard Motzer was at the meeting for only >a few minutes on 5-14-97. I believe most researchers laughed at this idea >the sightings known as event #3 were flares. He came in with a flimsy report >and claimed he could "prove" they were flares. His report explained next to >nothing. To understand why he may have come up with these theories we must >look back into his past "research?" >The newest list of Motzers' 180 degree turns on UFO cases. >1. Tim Edwards, Salida footage, Motzer said it was real and very good >footage. Later he changes his story to optics inside the camera. Soon >afterwords he 180's and says its a spider web... > >2. Tom Kings, Phoenix footage of a clyinder. Motzer obtained a copy from me >and in December of 1995 he went to Channel 15 in Phoenix with it. Richard >was claiming he shot my footage and was taking credit for the video.(Sound >familar?). I jumped Richard about this after I found out what happened and >he claimed it was an accident. I have the news copy to prove he did this. >Then he 180's the footage and says its a spider web... >3. Russia footage, UFO video of a clyinder taped in Russia. Richard believed >this was a real event too. Then after he believes spider webs can explain >everything the same theory now applies to the Russian footage. >4. March 13, 1997, UFOs over Phoenix. Richard was busy collecting all the >videos he could on these sighting. He then sat on all these videos and >didn't share any copies with local researchers. Then we start hereing FOX >and other networks have all the footage less than 2 weeks after the 13th. >Apparently he was sending the footage to the networks because hes the only >one who has all the footage. He has said several times to the media that >these lights couldn't have been flares. IF I may add my own personal experience with Motzer.(sorry a bit long) 5. A friend came down to Phoenix from Toronto, Canada. My wife, the friend (Robert Kennedy), and two other people went to Mexico to visit a tourist beach spot. This is 1995. On the way there, as they were passing on the North side of Luke Air Force Gunnery Range, also known as Goldwater Gunnery range, Robert shot about 5 minutes of 2 very bright lights in the sky. These disappeared then cam back again, only to disappear. I thought it was pretty good video, looked in the phone book and called a number that happened to be MUFON of AZ. No proper attribution that it was MUFON was given in the phone book. Richard Motzer rushes over in about 45 minutes with a VCR to record the tape in exchange for about 10 minutes of what he called 'Real UFO' NASA footage. Which was fine, I didn't have that footage at that time. I did not appreciate that he had 'real UFO' footage, as compared to what I had. At the time flares were not mentioned. So I waited for about 3 months for him to get back to me on some analysis or whatever he had come up with. Nothing. I tracked him down in the Mall during UFO appreciation week in August of 1995. Asked him about the video, and he said it was 50/50, either flares or real. That he talked to someone unnamed in the Air Force etc. 50/50??? Who knows what he was talking about. I said forget this guy, he is not a researcher. In the short time that followed we were able to conclude at Ovni Chapterhouse that these were indeed flares and presented the case as such on the Web Page. Jason DeGraf Ovni Chapterhouse http://personal.netwrx.net/xalium/ufovideo.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 18 New Area 51 'Witness'? From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 19:50:35 +0200 Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:37:43 -0400 Subject: New Area 51 'Witness'? I don't know what to think of this new Area 51 witness whom I became aware of through an e-mail that I received from the newsgroup "alt.alien.research" today, May 18 1997, at 18.00 CET. Anyhow, here is the story or rather the summary that is given at the witness's website. After that you'll find the Don's e-mail with the URL. Alien Technology & UFO's at Area 51 Welcome to my home page About 15 years ago, whilst working for a UK defence contracter, I was involved in the development of SAW (Surface Accoustic Wave) microwave frequency devices. The applications were strictly military and secret in nature. Considerable interest was shown in our work (and we were the leading exponents of SAW technology in the world at the time) by US companies developing LPI (Low Probabilty of Intercept) radars for Low Observables (stealth) and other exotic airborne platforms. In addition to my design role, I was the team expert in automated testing of completed devices and subassemblies, and this led to my being chosed for the project described below. We were contracted to provide sample devices for inclusion in a prototype LO radar assembly and, as part of this project, I became one of a small team sent to work on an evaluation sample to be installed in an F-4C test vehicle. Flight testing was to be carried out at Groom Lake, Nevada, often referred to as "Area 51", although I did not hear this term in use at the time. Whilst working in Nevada, i was exposed to intriguing details of some very unusual aircraft, including some of apparent extraterrestrial origin. Two years later, i was closely involved in the evaluation of hardware of such an advanced nature that the final report concluded had to be constructed by a technological culture far more advanced than our own. The construction and operationof this device defied belief (and the laws of physics as we know them) and yet it was there on my workbench. I have written a report setting out all the details of my experiences as I remember them. The price of this document is $15US. My motive in charging for this information is purely financial. I now run a small retail business which loses money and I need to move on again, as I start to get nervous if I remain in the same place for too long. I was not the only engineer working on unusual technology and, when I tast checked, more than 20 of my colleagues had died under misterious circumstances. Details are in the report. If this is of interest to you then secure credit card payment is available below. Using the Internet Billing Co. to process the order protects your details and conceals mine. Should you have any questions about the material, then the report contains details of an IRC site and time when I will be available. No authors or "ufologist" investigators please. I am not doing this for publicity. Thanks for your time> Ali. Credit card transaction services provided by Internet Billing Co., Ltd. And here's the e-mail: Yes, Something new for a change!! I found this file on my server : http://www3.mistral.co.uk/tpfserv/a51.htm Selling information, and claims to have worked on alien technology, and at Area 51. Don't have a credit card myself so haven't been able to check out the book. Anyone seen it? Don -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 10:33:09 -0600 From: tpfserv@mistral.co.uk Subject: Area 51 - NEW Message-ID: <863969367.26565@dejanews.com>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 18 UFOs over Brooklyn, NY - April 26 1997 From: XELAUFO@aol.com Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 20:48:10 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:30:39 -0400 Subject: UFOs over Brooklyn, NY - April 26 1997 HI THERE, Just thought you might be interested in this story and picture TAKEN IN BROOKLYN NEW YORK. It appears to be very close in appearance to the ARIZONIA LIGHTSHIPS. PLEASE let me know what you think of it..... thank you, ALEX CAVALLARI tel # 718 332 1041 XELAUFO@AOL.COM NEW YORK STATE DIRECTOR, SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL KB2NYV AMATEUR RADIO ============================================================= UFO SIGHTING APRIL 26 1997 COPYRIGHT 1997 ALEX CAVALLARI UFO SIGHTING ( JET OBJECTS 3 ) April 26 1997, Brooklyn New York, Sheepshead Bay section . Three male witnesses. ALEX CAVALLARI NEW YORK STATE DIRECTOR of SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL and two friends were outside on the front porch of Alex's home. They were barbecuing and doing some low level UFO / PARANORMAL hunting at this location. ALEX was informing his friends that there are many UFOs in the skies over Brooklyn. ALEX usually just films the local air traffic and then check the videos and pictures for unseen UFOs. This blind filming has yielded many pictures of UFOs for ALEX , most are filmed and seen within close proximity to the home of ALEX. On this day there were THREE high altitude LIGHTSHIP type UFOs spotted. The LIGHTSHIPS were seen with the naked eye and were also observed through 6 by 30 and 8 by 50 power binoculars. There were 35 mm film pictures and video tape recording equipment in use at the same time. The video recorder was set and filmed at a 12X lens zoom setting on manual. The LIGHTSHIPS were seen in close proximity to some air traffic which was flying out of and into KENNEDY AIRPORT. The UFOs were approximately 2 to 5 miles away from the air traffic. The air traffic was about 2 - 5 miles away from Alex�s home. The LIGHTSHIPS were hovering and doing low / high speed sharp 90* angle turns, they would stop dead and then just reverse direction all in a instance. Some even did loop de loops with abrupt stops and starts , at one point they even just vanished and reappeared in a different area of the sky. They darted around and appeared to be playing a game of hide and seek with ALEX and his friends. They were seen in the south eastern skies. The weather that day was excellent, it was very clear with few clouds in the sky. The temperature was about 70 - 75* F .The time was between 4:30 and 5:30 PM. The LIGHTSHIPS were viewed for about 15 minutes by ALEX and his two friends. They were above the normal air traffic altitude and appeared to be just above the high altitude air traffic. Alex thinks they were at about 60 thousand feet or so. They appeared to be disc to oval in shape and not totally round. It is very possible that they were round but they appeared to shimmer and glow whitish in color and this made it very difficult to determine exactly what shape they were. Some even appeared to have a emission tail of some unknown type. The emission tails did not remain in the sky after the LIGHTSHIPS moved, when the ship moved the tail vanished. It appeared to be some form of pulsed emission. The emission tail was about 4 - 8 X longer in length then the LIGHTSHIP. The OBJECTS made no sound and did not have any flashing lights or normal aircraft markings. It appears that the objects were emitting and not reflecting light type optical energy. The sun was just about at the horizon level, setting in the west. It is possible that the objects were using some form of energy such as LIGHT TYPE OPTICAL ENERGY AS A FORM OF CAMOUFLAGE. There is much activity similar to this over the Brooklyn NY area and ALEX has seen and filmed these objects often. There is a theory which ALEX has which suggests that the UFOs use our airports and terminals exactly the same way we use them, to take off and land and to pick up and depart passengers. These pictures were taken in close proximity to KENNEDY and LA GUARDIA airports. When ALEX called the airports to inquire about these objects two days later, when he had the pictures in his hand, "The calls made to these airports went unanswered ". " LIFE IS ELECTRICITY AND ELECTRICITY IS LIFE " Thank you, ALEX CAVALLARI NEW YORK STATE DIRECTOR, SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL XELAUFO@AOL.COM ============================================================= ============================================================= HERE IS MY BIOGRAPHY BIOGRAPHY 1997 ALEX CAVALLARI 2740 BROWN STREET BROOKLYN, N.Y. 11235 TEL# 718 332 1041 Internet World Wide Web Site: http://www.allmedianow.com E - Mail: alex@allmedianow.com : xelaufo@aol.com Electronic Designer / Consultant F.C.C. Licensed Amateur Radio Operator Technician Plus KB2NYV UFO / PARANORMAL Research / Investigation Founder of UFO PARANORMAL MEDIA UPM Television Program Producer, Talk Show Host Research and Designer of Electronic "Interdimensional Communication Systems" "ICS" Internet World Wide Web Site Designer / Consultant New York State Director of SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL, INC. International Ghost Hunter Society - Member Alex Cavallari has submitted proposals for the SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION of "THE ABDUCTION PHENOMENON" to the Mutual UFO Network (Mufon). He has been OWNER and HOST / CO-HOST of a LIVE TELEVISION PROGRAM called "INVESTIGATION UFO" for 44 weeks during 1994 - 1995 on COMMERCIAL TELEVISION U.H.F. CHANNEL 53 WWAC ATLANTIC CITY N.J. He has supplied the TV SHOW "SIGHTINGS" with information in the area of UFO / PARANORMAL activity. He also has been written up in OMNI Magazine November 1994, "PROJECT OPEN BOOK" and PENTHOUSE Magazine December 1994, "LET THE PROJECT BEGIN" for his involvement in a UFO EVENT over Brooklyn New York. He has researched, investigated, filmed and documented many UFO / Paranormal events including aerial phenomena, unknown aircraft / spacecraft and unknown lifeforms. He has had numerous UFO / Paranormal events and or encounters in Brooklyn, New York during the past 10 years. "I believe in the existence of UFOs, EXTRATERRESTRIAL and PARANORMAL LIFEFORMS due to the fact that I have SEEN, INTERACTED and COMMUNICATED with some of them !" " LIFE IS ELECTRICITY AND ELECTRICITY IS LIFE " ALEX CAVALLARI
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 18 Korff Boo From: Andy Roberts <101322.751@CompuServe.COM> Date: 18 May 97 13:01:36 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:39:41 -0400 Subject: Korff Boo Bob Shell wrote; >Date: 17 May 97 10:19:58 EDT >From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> >To: BlindCopyReceiver:; >Subject: Kal Korff Kills AA Film --- No Way! >I predict that many will buy this book thinking it is pro-Roswell, based on >brief perusal of the dust jacket info, and be very distressed at what they >actually get. C'mon Bob if someone is so stupid as not to be able to work out wether a book is for or agin something whilst standing looking at it in a bookstore they've got problems enough without being exposed to ufology. Ditto the fact that not only might they be 'stupid' but that they could be 'distressed' by reading an anti-Roswell tract. I also in other posts today sense the sound of Philip Mantle subtly changing his position on things. Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 18 Re: Publisher Needs 'Help' From: "A. Hebert" <yelorose@swbell.net> Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 14:34:16 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:47:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Publisher Needs 'Help' >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: NEW BOOK NEEDS YOUR HELP >From: drjackryan@juno.com (John P Ryan) >Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 11:15:51 EDT >To all that post and read messages here, a friend of mine needs your >help. Delta Publishing is working on a new book about Extraterrestrials >and UFOs. They need your computer photos for their book, and they will >give you the credit. Even if the photo wasn't taken by you, still send >it, they need as many as they can get. Get real!!! Since when do publishers accept photos for publishing without the original photographer's permission? This "Dr. Jack Ryan" needs to learn about a little law about "Copyrights"!!! Hello, John P. Ryan, have we met before? You seem familiar, "juno.com". Yellowrose [Amy Hebert] ***Center For Expanding Realities (CER)*** (Under Construction, stay tuned!)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 18 Re: Richard Motzer and CSICOP From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 14:18:29 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:42:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Richard Motzer and CSICOP >Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 02:28:19 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Richard Motzer and CSICOP >The e-mail that was originally circulated by Ed Komarek re: Phoenix, was >the worst report of information to come down the pike since Christ left >Chicago. No names, no info, no nothing, other than rumor, speculation and >another opportunistic shot at the character of his 'favorite meat', Kal >Korff, the **Karla of the Intelligence Community according to Ed. You are certianly one to bite the hand that feeds you, John. If you will go back and research the posts that I made, you will see that nothing was coming out about those meetings of the City Council in AZ. For some reason nobody wanted to post publicly to Updates. So when I got some raw information I put it on updates to get the ball moving and asked for comfirmation of the confidential report. A second report was passed on to me by another person that clarified and corrected the first report. I also posted this to Updates. This second report never would have come out at that time If the first had not been issued. This second report brought you this other apparent debunker which you are now talking about. Its seems to me the first author of the first report had confused this new debunker with Kal. Of course Kal took all this out on me in another post. I thought I made it clear in both of the confidential reports that this was raw data that needed confirmation. So give me a break okay! I will try to be even clearer in the future. Answers come when we see all the pieces and all the viewpoints. If we all waited to be absolutely sure of the reports we post, very little would ever get posted and we would all be none the wiser. I prefer to be completly out in the open about who I am and what I am about. I do recognize that others are often not in such a postion or are fearful of the reprocussions if they use their names to post information. I think the issue that could be debated is, is it okay to post raw data to Updates as long as it is labled as such. I will try to be even more explict in the future so as to avoid confusion. I do not think you are being fair at all to me here in this post of yours. >I asked them (both) publicly to please leave me out of their >(e-mail) >mutual smearfest. Much to his credit Kal Korff has respected >my wishes in >this matter and I want the man to know that I appreciate it. >Ed Komarek hasn't quite gotten the message. Ed, >please,...unsubscribe me to >your (completely unsolicited) private e-mailings. I already >have quite >enough on my plate without having to push off all the 'beans' >you keep >piling onto it! >No disrespect or insult intended, but I have rarely found >anything of real >value in them anyway! You're a lot like a politician that way, >you talk a >lot but never manage to say much. I guess some folks would >consider that a '>marketable commodity', I do not. <G> >Speaking strictly for myself, >Citizen Velez I will take you off the list of course. I was confused as to weither you wanted to be on my list or not. I do remember the public post but I mistakenly thought that you were only refering to Kal. I don't remember a private email from you asking specificly to be taken off the list. This was a honest mistake, sorry. The best, Ed Komarek
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 18 Re: Shell's Brief Look at Korff's Roswell Book From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 15:52:49 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:50:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Shell's Brief Look at Korff's Roswell Book Regarding... >Date: 17 May 97 10:19:58 EDT >From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Kal Korff Kills AA Film --- No Way! Bob wrote: >Actually what have been posted and circulated as hard copies are >copies of three Kodak film BOXES with labels affixed to them, not >canister labels. Bob, What have been made available are photocopies of labels _claimed_ to originate from Kodak film boxes. But aren't you leaving out something of importance here? In September of 1995, you stated: "Ray Santilli does have some of the original film boxes with the cameraman's notes on the back. We have already gotten in touch with a forensic document examiner certified by Christie's auction house in London. This person will conduct an analysis of the written notes and film boxes to date them, independently of the film. We can also do a handwriting comparison to establish that "Jack" is actually the person who made the notes on the film boxes. Some of the film cans have labels stuck on them as well, and there is a variety of other physical evidence associated with the film which can be dated. This work will go on parallel to mine, and we should be able to announce all of the results at the same time." [End] I pointed out to you some time later that when Ray was asked "Why have the original film box labels not been made available for examination but only copies instead?", he had explained, "I only have copies, the boxes were returned". You then confirmed, "It is my belief that Ray never had or saw those film boxes, that he just had photo copies provided by the cameraman", which prompted my question, "Then why would he say the boxes were returned?". Now over a year since your original statement, on 19 December, 1996, you responded: "Originally, Ray told me he had the actual boxes and sent me photo copies of them. I made the arrangements to have the boxes examined, but when the time came to do it Ray confessed that he did not have them. He claimed that he had sent them back some time before. Now he knew I was setting up this examination and never mentioned this. In conversations with him I have asked what color the boxes were, what sort of cardboard, tape, labels, etc. My impression from Ray's answers is that he really never saw the actual boxes and was just supplied with photocopies. I have no proof of this, but it is what I think happened. Ray tends to exaggerate things to his benefit, and even when he is being absolutely forthright he tends to use language very sloppily". In other words, you were apparently misled by Ray, as you have been on a number of key issues. Perhaps we should explain the full circumstances for the record. >Kal claims that the seal on the labels is that of the DOD, and that >this did not exist in June or July of 1947. >It is by no means established that these are DOD seals. What Kal Korff appears to have overlooked is that the DoD seal was inherited from the National Military Establishment, the seal remaining unchanged. The imprint on the labels appears to be a stamp, not necessarily a formal seal. There's a comparison of the relevant seals on my web site, at URL: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/aa_qa.htm >Ray has shown me several different Elvis documentaries he has >produced, and they contain footage from a wide variety of sources. Has Ray shown you the actual footage which he claims was bought from "Jack". Wasn't that also unavailable when you were supposed to see it? >BTW, "The entire venture would be marketed under the name of "Roswell >Limited"." Actually, Kal, that's Roswell Footage Ltd., which was >later changed to Orbital Media, Ltd. And which, before it became Roswell Footage Ltd., was the suitably named, International Exploitation Management. James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 18 Re: MSN UFO Webshow 'debunks' Left at East Gate From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 20:30:15 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 23:02:26 -0400 Subject: Re: MSN UFO Webshow 'debunks' Left at East Gate Regarding... >Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:50:52 -0500 >From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) >Subject: Tonight's MSN UFO Webshow (which) debunks Left at East Gate John posted some comments from Peter Robbins, co-author of "Left at East Gate", which read: >My own, and my co-author's conversations with Mr. Halt were recorded >(with his knowledge and permission) and transcribed; they appear in >the book. >Quoting from them, and from Mr. Randle's comments on the internet, >what do you deduce? >Randle: . . Halt in various interviews after the events has said >that there were only two nights, no third. >Robbins (to Halt): . It involved the approximate time of the >incident. >Halt: which incident? There were three nights. (p.328) John, Perhaps we can deduce that Halt says there were three nights, not three incidents. We know there were two claimed incidents, apparently over a period of three nights. Halt has been quite categorical about this. >Charles Halt told Larry: "I think you sincerely believe what you're >saying, and you may be right, and I can't say you're lying, but I >find flaws here and there that I have to resolve for myseIf." Diplomatically put. As I've mentioned, Halt expands on these views elsewhere. For example, from the recent "Project watchfire" article on the Rendlesham Forest case: "Anywhere there's a vacuum something moves it to fill it up," says Halt. "There's one individual who's travelled around, made the talk show circuit and claims to have been present for the incidents. He's what I call a wanna-be, someone who maybe was hanging on the edge, picking up pieces of information. He's claimed the wing-commander went out and made contact with holographic aliens and that we helped them repair their craft and all kinds of things. None of which are true," says Halt". The problem is not simply that the promotion of Warren's claims obscures the more credible evidence, it unfortunately does so at a time when there may be some real breakthroughs in the case, when significant evidence is being added and the issues are becoming much clearer. There are apparently plans for a substantial promotional campaign in the UK, when "Left at East Gate" is shortly published. A "media blitz" I'm led to believe and Nick Pope's name has been mentioned as part of the campaign team. No doubt the tabloids will take a brief interest in the story of an American airman who was hypnotised and "recalled" being kidnapped by aliens in an underground English airbase...or however they report it. Certain journalists with the influential newspapers may also delight in completely ridiculing the Rendlesham Forest case, without still understanding the true issues. And the book will probably sell more copies. But there are some serious concerns about the impact this will have on the perception of what is perhaps a "UFO" case with more substance than has ever before been realised. I hope that can be pre-empted. James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 18 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 20 From: Masinaigan@aol.com Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 13:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:23:23 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 20 UFO ROUNDUP Volume 2, Number 20 May 18, 1997 Editor: Joseph Trainor CHUPACABRAS SCARE SWEEPS BRAZIL Stories of a strange Chupacabras-style creature that attacks sheep have created panic among "chacareiros" (ranchers) in Brazil's southern states of Sao Paulo and Parana. Known as "O Bicho" (pronounced Beee-shoooo), meaning "The Beast," the creature has killed over 50 sheep since January 28, 1997. The attacks have been concentrated in rural districts surrounding the city of Campinas in Sao Paulo state and the small city of Campina Grande do Sul, 30 kilometers (18 miles) from Curitiba in Parana state. A woman of rural Sao Paulo state, who saw Bicho two weeks ago, described the creature as "two meters tall (six feet, six inches), very thin, with small forearms and long claws, and of a dark gray color." On May 11, 1997, the newspaper Folha de Londrina in Parana state published a long feature story on Bicho. According to journalist Paulo San Martin, "The first attacks occurred at the end of January. But no one called attention to them until a month later when the massacre occurred at the ranch of Samuel Ramos Lago" near Campina Grande do Sul. On February 20, 1997, Ramos Lago and his wife, Rosimara, left their ranch on a business trip. Staying behind was housekeeper Jose Batista de Moraes. Batista de Moraes told the newspaper that "at 2 a.m. (February 21) he "awoke apprehensively having heard loud noises coming from outside." Because it was drizzling, he put on a raincoat before going into the barnyard. "When I approach the corral, I heard sheep bleating and a loud rumble, a type of growling that I'd never heard before," Batista de Moraes said. "I tried to enter through the gates, but they were tightly shut. By the time I got to the other gate, the strange animal had escaped." Inside the corral, Batista de Moraes "switched on the lights and found a scene of massacre. Twelve sheep lay dead, and another 11 were very much chewed up. All of the sheep were mutilated with surgical precision. Some of the living sheep had suffered an excruciating blow, a violent break of the maxillary bone." When the Ramos couple returned home, Samuel examined the dead sheep and "found claw scrapes and a curious cut on each sheep's ear. The cuts were perfect. They appeared to have been executed by a surgical instrument." Local veterinarian Dr. Luiz Cintra was the first to investigate the scene. He took samples of a "mucus-like substance" found on the wool of the dead sheep. Three days later, on February 24, the Policia Florestal and a team of veterinarians led by Dr. Ana Silvia Passarinho of Curitiba's municipal zoo examined the dead and wounded sheep. "Other predators of the region were immediately dismissed," Folha de Londrina reported. "Jaguars don't attack sheep. Also, their teeth marks are too small to fit the incisors shown on the remains." Dr. Passarinho said, "Cats do not attack their prey from behind. Nor do they go for the ears first, as this creature did." She added that the scale of butchery was out of character for felines, as well. Tracks left by Bicho also seemed puzzling. Ramos Lago said that at times the creature appeared to stand and move on two legs, and at other times, it appeared to be moving on four legs. (See Folha de Londrina for May 11, 1997. Also, many thanks to Eduardo Castor Borgovni for the reports from Sao Paulo state.) (Editor's Comment: This seems to be the week for monster stories! Keep reading...) MONSTER REPORTS CAUSE STIR IN SOUTH AFRICA TV viewers in South Africa were stunned Tuesday night, May 8, 1997 by a 15-minute news broadcast about a monster scare in the Eastern Cape region. The broadcast showed an interview with a Xhosa tribal chief and one of his princesses near the town of Umzimkulu. The couple claimed that seven Xhosa people have disappeared during the last month, all victims of a creature they call Mamlambo. The most recent alleged victim, a Xhosa man, washed ashore recently along the banks of the Umzimhlava River, about 176 kilometers (110 miles) southwest of Durban. The body was badly lacerated, and the victim's eyes had reportedly been gouged out. Mamlambo, the royal couple claim, has a head like a horse, a long neck, and a body with scales like a fish. It is said to be a giant amphibian or a reptile that came out of the river. However, the Umzimkulu police chief, also a Xhosa, laughed off the reports, said there were not six people missing, adding that the body found was that of "a drowning victim" who was "probably eaten by the crabs." The controversy reached South Africa's Parliament when Ezra Sigwella, agriculture minister for the Eastern Cape, asked the members to deal with Mamlambo. (See Earthweek for May 9, 1997. Many thanks to Loren Coleman for posting the original item. And thanks to Roger Day and Leon Bouwer of South Africa for the additional information.) (Editor's Comment: According to Star for May 27, 1997, Marla Maples is looking for movie work. I think she'd be perfect in Mamlambo, the Creature that Ate Johannesburg.) THREE UFOs SIGHTED OVER LONG ISLAND, NEW YORK On Sunday, May 4, 1997, MUFON investigator Andrew Casaveno and his girlfriend observed three UFOs flying over Nassau County, Long Island, New York. The UFOs "were moving southeast slowly at 30,000 to 35,000 feet (9,090 to 10,606 meters) and changing shape as observed through binoculars." "The UFOs appeared to be metallic with an orange glow," Casaveno reported. He then saw "two F-16 fighters intercept from the southwest. The UFOs disappeared when the F-16s got near." "Fifteen minutes later," he added, "two black helicopters flew into the same general area and released a large quantity of balloons. This operation appeared very unusual and could cause a flight hazard to aircraft operation. Has anyone heard of a similar balloon release?" (Many thanks to George A. Filer, MUFON Eastern Director for this news story.) LIGHTSHIP UFOs SEEN IN THE SKIES OVER BROOKLYN On April 26, 1997, Alex Cavallari, New York state director of Skywatch International and two friends were out in the backyard of Alex's home in the Sheepshead Bay section of Brooklyn, New York, not far from Neptune Avenue. The trio was having a barbecure and "doing some low-level UFO/paranormal hunting at this location." "On this day there were three high-altitude lightship type UFOs spotted," Cavallari reported. "The lightships were seen with the naked eye and were also observed through 6-by-30 and 8-by-50 power binoculars. There were 35mm film pictures and video tape recording equipment in use at the time. The videorecorder was set and filmed at a 12X lens zoon setting on manual." Cavallari estimated that the "lightships" were two to five miles (3 to 8 kilometers) away from commercial air traffic flying in and out of Kennedy International Airport in Queens, New York. "The lightships were hovering and doing low/high speed sharp 90-degree angle turns," he reported. "They would stop dead and then just reverse direction, all in an instant. Some even did loop-de-loops with abrupt stops and starts. At one point, they even just vanished and reappeared in a different area of the sky...They were seen in the southeastern skies. The weather that day was excellent--it was very clear with a few clouds in the sky. The temperature was about 70 to 75 degrees Fahrenheit. The time was between 4:30 and 5:30 p.m." The group viewed the UFOs "for about fifteen minutes... Alex thinks they were at 60,000 feet (18,182 meters) or so. They appeared to be disc to oval in shape...but they appeared to shimmer and glow whitish in color and this made it very difficult to determine exactly what shape they were." (Copyright 1997 by Alex Cavallri. Thank you, Alex, for allowing UFO ROUNDUP to quote from your report.) UFO SIGHTINGS CONTINUE IN PHOENIX, ARIZONA On Friday, May 9, 1997, at 9:50 p.m., Norm Miller and his family spotted "six to eight round lights in the southern skies of Phoenix." "The lights stayed in one area of the sky," Miller told Skywatch International, "moving from a small cluster, into a V formation to a straight line, inverted V and back to a small cluster. This went on for approximately one minute after which they went west at a very high rate of speed at approx. 10,000 feet (3,030 meters)." "They continued the various formations until they were out of sight," Miller added, "The night was clear, approx. 85 degrees (Fahrenheit), no weather balloons, no swamp gas, and maneuvering the way they did, no planes. Anyone else see this?" On Wednesday night, May 14, 1997, at 9:30 p.m. several residents of Phoenix, living near Sunnyslope and Squaw Peak, reported seeing "a large boomerang object" with five or six white lights. (Many thanks to Skywatch International.) SAUCER RAMS ELECTRICAL TOWER IN CHILE On Friday, May 9, 1997, the TV news program MegaNoticias on Channel 9 in Santiago de Chile stated that a massive blackout eight days earlier had been caused by a UFO. On the night of Thursday, May 1, 1997, residents of Jahuel, a town in the Andes of central Chile, told MegaNoticias that "a big glowing disc rammed one of the high-voltage (electrical transmission) towers, and all the lights went out. Then it flew straight up into the sky until it disappeared." The May 1 outage killed all electrical power in the metropolitan Santiago area all the way north to Arica, leaving 60 percent of the country in darkness. The blackout lasted for about one hour. The Fuerzas Aereas de Chile (FACh), the Chilean Air Force, denied the Channel 9 story and refused to comment on the May 1 blackout. (Muchas gracias a Luis Sanchez Perry para esas noticias.) STUDENTS VIDEOTAPE UFO OVER URUGUAY On April 5, 1997, a group of university students were hiking in the farm country east of Cerro de las Animas. The region is just north of Maldonado, about 100 kilometers (60 miles) east of Uruguay's capital city of Montevideo. As they walked along some railroad tracks, the students saw a gleaming white UFO hovering in the northern sky about 1 kilometer (0.6 miles) away. The UFO was about 30 degrees above the horizon in a blue sky marked by scattered clouds. The UFO's shape was discoidal or oval. Grabbing a videocamera, one of the students obtained a couple of minutes of coverage. The UFO then flew away at incredible speed. (Muchas gracias a Ricardo Darca para ese. To obtain a photo, email Ricardo at this address-- rdarca@adinet.com.uy) FOUR-DAY UFO FLAP ROCKS CENTRAL BRAZIL Between Saturday, May 10, and Tuesday, May 13, 1997, multicolored UFOs were seen again and again over Vila Cortes, a barrio in the town of Santo Antonio de Descoberto. The town is in Brazil's Goias state, about 50 kilometers (30 miles) from Plano Piloto. On May 10, Sra. Maria de Fatima da Silva was washing clothes when she saw the first of the "bolinhas" or OVNIs (Portuguese acronym for UFO), which she described as "rotating and brilliant, of the colors blue, yellow, red and green" and flying "in groups of three. They were moving very rapidly and appeared to be communicating with each other." On May 11, Ilza Araujo, a local teacher acquainted with the family, went to Vila Cortes to observe the phenomenon. "The objects were brilliant," Srta. Araujo told the newspaper Corrieo Braziliense. She watched the OVNIs with her Pentax binoculars. "One flew very low--it looked like a 500-liter jar of water. I wish they would come down and converse with me." Claudiane Veras, age 8, saw a UFO on May 13 and said, "It was a brilliant ball, but seemed more like an oval." Not everyone in Santo Antonio de Descoberto believes the objects are UFOs. Raimundo Nonato Fontenelle said, "For myself, I believe these objects are plastic bags flying in the wind." (See the newspapers O Imparcial of Plano Piloto and Correio Braziliense of Brasilia, D.F. for May 13, 1997. Muito obrigado a Pedro Cunha para esas historias) (Editor's Note: Santo Antonio de Descoberto was the site of many UFO sightings during Brazil's big flap back in 1986.) NEW MYSTERY EXPLOSION HEARD IN CINCINNATI, OHIO On Thursday, May 15, 1997, at 1:15 p.m., an explosive sound rolled across a wide area of southern Ohio into northern Kentucky, mystifying thousands of residents. Reports flooded in from a 104-mile area ranging from Aurora, Indiana (population 3,816) to West Union, Ohio (population 1,639). Charles Stuart, an investigator for Tri-States Advocates for Scientific Knowledge (T.A.S.K.), heard the explosion while in West Chester, Ohio and he "described the blasts as six separate jolts happening over a 10-minute duration." A woman in Adams County contacted T.A.S.K. to report "a sonic boom heard around 2:00 p.m. The boom greatly startled her, she said, and shook her teeth." Kenneth Young, T.A.S.K. public relations director, said the Clermont County Sheriff's Department received "calls originated at 3:45 p.m. from Tate township, 3:52 p.m. from Monroe township, 3:55 p.m. from Washington township, 4 p.m. from Miami township police departments." Young reported that Terry Donald of the WKRC-TV Channel 12 news department "received calls from Aurora, Indiana, Delhi (Ohio)...and Boone County, Kentucky. WKRC Ch. 12 also confirmed that multiple booms were reported, and added that a Delhi resident called the news station to complain that 'her little glass knick-knacks shattered,' and also received a call from Butler, Kentucky (population 663), whose front door had exploded from the blast." This is the third explosive event in the Cincinnati region since April 19. The T.A.S.K. investigation is continuing. (Many thanks to Kenneth Young of T.A.S.K. for this news story.) from the UFO Files... 1952: USAF PLANES TANGLE WITH SAUCERS OVER NORTH KOREA Forty-five years ago, on May 15, 1952, U.S. Air Force planes chased UFOs over North Korea. The incidents appear to have taken place in the lakes district south of Changsong-ni and north of the Nangnim Mountains. Here are the actual combat reports for both UFO encounters. "Air Intelligence Information Report 52-79 dated 28 May 1952 describes a brief but interesting encounter with a UFO by two 'very reliable' pilots of the 51st Fighter-Interceptor Wing, 25th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron. The two planes were on Mission C/51-02 flying wing positions in Maple flight. Lt. McCarthy was the first pilot to see the strange object. He had completed 27 combat missions. The other unnamed pilot was the Interceptor Group Operations Officer with 56 combat missions completed. Following is a summary of key events:" "A silvery oval-shaped object larger than a MiG jet airplane was seen at the nine o'clock position below the two F-86E (Sabre) jet airplanes at an estimated altitude of from 8,000 to 10,000 feet and about twenty miles (32 kilometers) away. The single-seat airplanes were on a heading of 280 degrees; the object continued on in a straight flight path and disappeared at about the three o'clock position. While flying at an altitude of 30,000 feet and an airspeed of 500 knots, both eye- witnesses saw the object for only 3 to 5 seconds and noted that the object travelled at an estimated 1,200 to 1,500 mph in a 'rolling maneuver.' (A barrel roll--J.T.) The reported weather (at 8 p.m. on May 15, 1952) was a medium haze with visibility of 10 to 12 miles." The second report was at 6:35 p.m. on May 15, 1952. "Air Intelligence Information Report No. 52-81 describes an encounter between the pilot of an F-51 (Mustang--same model as Tommy Mantell's) propellor- driven fighter bomber and a silver object estimated to be about 50 feet in diameter. The aircraft was assigned to the 18th Fighter Bomber Group. The pilot had flown 76 combat missions in WW2 (World War II). He was... flying on a heading of 180 degrees at an altitude of 9,000 feet; he first noticed the object at the one o'clock position. 'By the time I called the object in as a bogie, it had moved to the 3 o'clock position and started a steep climb, which I assumed was the beginning of a loop, but at the vertical position in the loop, the object moved forward in its original course of travel (360 degrees) and wavered momentarily and then descended and disappeared into the haze which reached an altitude of approximately 7,000 to 8,000 feet.' While the (F-51) airplane was traveling at only 240 mph, the UFO was estimated to be moving at 1,000 mph, first to the east and then changing to the north. It was at approximately the same altitude as the airplane during the 15-to-25-second-long sighting." (See the book ADVANCED AERIAL DEVICES REPORTED DURING THE KOREAN WAR by Richard F. Haines, LDA Press, Los Altos, California, 1990, pages 39 and 40) (Editor's Note: The MiG-15 had a wingspan of 10 meters or 33 feet. McCarthy's UFO was probably 12 meters or 40 feet in diameter.) FUN UFO WEBSITES Got some new Web addresses for our parent site, UFOINFO, and UFO ROUNDUP. We moved last weekend. Not to stay one step ahead of the MIBs and the cyper-sheriff, mind you, but because the old server was not too pleased with all the hits we were getting. So, to save money (and we all know how important that is!) John Hayes found us a new home. So here are the new URLs: You'll find UFOINFO at http://www.digiserve.com/ufoinfo/index.html. For back issues of UFO ROUNDUP, check out our page at: http://www.digiserve.com/ufoinfo/roundup/index.shmtl If you see a news story about a UFO in your local newspaper, clip it out and send it to our snail-mail address: UFO ROUNDUP, Box 16, 126 Toll Gate Road, Warwick, Rhode Island, USA 02886. And if you have a UFO sighting to report, email us at Masinaigan@aol.com. That's it for this week. To our readers in Cuba and on "Calle Ocho" in Miami, I hope you had a pleasant "Dia de Independencia" yesterday. Look for more saucer news next Sunday from "the paper that goes home--UFO ROUNDUP." UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1997 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from UFO ROUNDUP on their Websites or in news groups provided that they credit the newsletter and its author by name and list the date the item appeared in the newsletter.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 18 Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> Date: 18 May 97 21:27:13 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 23:04:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? >Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 00:13:01 -0400 >From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? Well, the third accusation of governmental collaboration in a week. I wish I could get the buggers to part with some cash for it. Thanks for the offers, but I think I'll freelance it for a bit. Gary wrote; >> Thirty years, either you are a deliberately spreading incorrect information or don't bother to read the reports of the government's own committee handling the issues of secrecy and declassification. << You decide. <Bwahahahahhahahhaha!> >> By the way the last publicly reported oldest material still held classified dates back to the early 1900's. << Now lets just extrapolate some stuff from that snippet, even though I am more accustomed to the UK PRO declassification rules, unhampered by messy old FOIA regulations and gubbins. While I mention the FOIA, how many documents over how long a time span have been located that refer to UFOs? >> that's either ignorance or intentional deception << Presume it's ignorance, and control don't have your Email address, eh? <wink> >> e.g. you are forgetting that prominent scientists such as Dr. Edward Teller were involved in researching the "green fireball" problem (Project Twinkle) << And the present incumbent of presidential scientific advisor was involved in Remote-viewing. Big Whoop. You don't think in the early days that scientists didn't get involved in the subject on a level that would allow them to look at this seriously before the fringe got involved bigtime? >> the CIA's own declassified documents refer to its UFO experts << Yup. >> and the NSA dispatched a agent of its own to investigate the Hudson Valley sightings in the 1980's << Yup. >> this was documented by Dr. Hynek in his book Night Siege << Another noted pawn of the Pentagon... >> Perhaps you should familiarize yourself some history of the government's research and involvement in the phenomenon. << Perhaps. Do you know what DI61 is? James A Diss ---------------------- HEALTH WARNING: Care Should Be Taken When Lifting This Product, Since Its Mass, and Thus Its Weight, Is Dependent on Its Velocity Relative to the User. --------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Re: Publisher Needs 'Help' From: Tim Joiner <tjoiner@flash.net> Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 23:19:09 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:05:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Publisher Needs 'Help' UFO UpDates - Toronto wrote: > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: NEW BOOK NEEDS YOUR HELP > From: drjackryan@juno.com (John P Ryan) > Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 11:15:51 EDT > To all that post and read messages here, a friend of mine > needs your > help. Delta Publishing is working on a new book about > Extraterrestrials > and UFOs. [snip] > Dr. John P. Ryan > U.S. Naval Academy > Annapolis, Maryland > (DrJackRyan@juno.com) Has someone been reading too many Tom Clancy novels? Besides, in the last novel, Jack Ryan got to be President of the US. I don't think he'd go back to being plain-old Doctor Ryan. If you're gonna pull a funny, at least get your facts straight. Tim Joiner Benton, Arkansas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Re: UFOs over Brooklyn, NY - April 26 1997 From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:24:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:38:23 -0400 Subject: Re: UFOs over Brooklyn, NY - April 26 1997 >From: XELAUFO@aol.com >Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 20:48:10 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: UFOSIGHTING Alex writes, >HI THERE, >Just thought you might be interested in this story and picture >TAKEN IN BROOKLYN NEW YORK. You bet I'm interested, I've been seeing these buggers for years and it's comforting to know that (someone else) is seeing and recording the same objects. I'm getting ready to start a whole new "New Age religion" whose object of worship is the videocam! If you chant 'Sony, Sony, Sony',often enough you will attain enlightenment. >It appears to be very close in appearance to the ARIZONIA LIGHTSHIPS. Not too crazy about your use of the term, "Lightship." Simple truth is we don't know 'what' they are. Unknowns or unidentifieds would be much more accurate and less speculative. Although you *are* entitled to your oppinion. Your 'guess' is just as good or valid as anyone elses I suppose. BTW, I got to preview the webpage that Tom King and Jason DeGraf have set up for my videoclip. They have done a completely professional and compelling presentation of the material that I submitted to them. I will post the web address as soon as Tom and Jason give me a 'green light' to do so. I openly welcome comments from all serious and interested parties. For Alex, These sightings in NY are an important issue Alex, it won't do to see it all get swept under a rug or dismissed because someone has attached New Age jargon and connotations to it. Or by pretending to know what these things are because they got the information from the alien that they channel for! Know what I mean? Let's try to be responsible about how we report these sightings. I'm a bit taken back by the fact that the "Director" of New York Skywatch would use terms like "Lightships" when making a report. I was laboring under the delusion that "Skywatch" was a serious, investigative group of people. Slapping labels on things prematurely (especially New Agey crap like "Lightships") or jumping to conclusions can only serve to diminish ones credibility, I'm sure you'd agree Mr Director! <G> I, for one would like to be taken seriously by mt peers, it's something that has to be earned. Careless usage of words (from one in your position) does nothing to help the cause. >PLEASE let me know what you think of it..... The objects that you have captured on video are identical to the ones I have witnessed repeatedly. They are also the same type of object that Tom King, Mike DeVarnes, Bill Hamilton, John Bro and others have been getting over Phoenix! Ditto for Mexico City. This is why I've been on such a 'Jihad' about these sightings (which began in Mexico in 1991) and have now progressed far enough north to generate sighting reports, photos and video from New York. To all of my beloved friends in 'Canuckia'... watch the skies, you're next! The rash of sightings appears to be heading due north! <G> I think more and more of these reports will begin to surface as time goes by and more people begin to look up occasionally! It has become a mission with me to work toward that end. >The LIGHTSHIPS were seen in close proximity to some air traffic >which was flying out of and into KENNEDY AIRPORT. I live within spitting distance of JFK. The "UNKNOWNS" I have witnessed are usually spotted south east of me (Jamaica Bay on your maps guys) which is JFK's busiest landing and take off corridor. Like Mexico City, this could prove to be a potentially dangerous situation for earthly commercial traffic and passengers. And I'm not too bananas about having a jumbo jet emergency land on my roof when my damn mortgage is so near paid up! >The LIGHTSHIPS were hovering and doing low / high speed sharp 90* >angle turns, they would stop dead and then just reverse direction all >in a instance. Some even did loop de loops with abrupt stops and >starts , at one point they even just vanished and reappeared in a >different area of the sky. Yes, that is precisely how the "UNKNOWNS" I have witnessed, photographed and videotaped behave. Their flight characteristics are quite unique, easy to spot and consistent. >It appears that the objects were emitting and not reflecting light I got that very distinct impression myself Alex, and have said so on several occasions. It only becomes an important question because it is so very hard to tell whether they are (in fact) reflecting or emitting the bright light that the objects display. >" LIFE IS ELECTRICITY AND ELECTRICITY IS LIFE " You are absolutely right, but don't stick your pee-pee in a light socket to test your theory! Electricity, (in the mundane world) can also *kill you* reeeeeal good! <G> John Velez S.O.S. (on the 'Side Of Sanity'... anybody else care to join?) * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 .....Reducing Government Secrecy 1997 From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 23:44:28 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:06:59 -0400 Subject: .....Reducing Government Secrecy 1997 Many readers of UFOupdates have an interest in the governments documentation process, classification and de-classification of documents. Recently the commission chaired by Daniel Patrick Moynihan of New York has issued its completed report. This report, Senate Document 105-2, is entitled: REPORT of the COMMISSION ON PROTECTING AND REDUCING GOVERNMENT SECRECY 1997 This document is available by conventional means through the GPO; however, it is also available through the www at the following address: http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/commissions/secrecy/index.html The various sections of the report are beautifully outlined and the sections of the report are available as downloadable Adobe Acrobat .pdf files. The Acrobat reader is available for free from Adobe at its site http://www.adobe.com/ also through a link on the commission report page. The accessibility of this report may foster more informed discussions which involve issues of government documentation, secrecy, classification and de-classification. Gary Alevy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Foo Fighters From: midian@aljan.com.au (David K. Minehan) Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:18:50 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:04:22 -0400 Subject: Foo Fighters Dear Guys... Anybody interested in the history of Foo Fighters... Here's some stuff :-) David M... :-) **************************************************** --Taken from UFO Report--Spring 1975 edition. THE MYSTERIOUS "FOO FIGHTERS" OF WWII By Jerome Clark and Lucius Farish During WWII, when a series of incomprehensible events suddenly erupted over battle zones from North Africa to Guadalcanal to the Rhineland, hundreds of fliers and infantrymen on both sides of the conflict had occasion to look into the skies ata mystery that has never been explained. Whatever the cause, these weird aerial apparitions, which came to be known as "foo fighters", were enough to make witnesses forget momentarily the life and death concerns of men in combat. June 24, 1947--the date Kenneth Arnold's Mt. Ranier sighting would firmly plant the phrase Unidentified Flying Objects in the public consciousness-- was more than five years away when the first known sighting of a "foo" took place. The witnesses were tow sailors of the deck of the S.S. Pulaski, an old Polish vessel which had been converted into a British troopship for use in ferrying soldiers between Durban, South Africa, and Suez, Egypt. While the ship was cruising thorugh the Indian Ocean during the early morning= hours of a clear, starry night in September 1941, seaman Mar Doroba happened to look up and saw, as he recalled some years later, "some strange globe= glowing with greenish light, about half the size of the full moon, as it appears to us." He called out to one of the English gunners and the two of them watched the strange light, which they estimated to be at an altitude of 4,000 to 5,000 feet, as it followed them for the next hour. Finally the thing "just disappeared." Several months laterm on Feb. 26, 1942, Willem J. Methorst underwent an equally wierd experience while aboard a ship in the Timor Sea near New Guinea. In 1957 Methorst, then a resident of Melbourne, Australia, told Peter Norris of the Victorian Flying Saucer Research Society: "While on watch for enemy aircraft just after noon, I was scanning the skys with binoculars when suddenly I sa a large illuminated disc approaching at terrific speed 4,000 or 5,000 feet above us. This object proceeded to= circle high above our ship, the cruiser, Tromp, of the Royal Netherlands Navy. "After reporting it to the officers on the bridge, they were unable to identify it as any known aircraft. After keeping track of this object for about three to four hours, as it flew in big circles and at the same height, the craft suddenly veered off in a tremendous burst of speed (at about 3,000 to 3,500 miles an hour) and disappeared from sight." Stephen J. Brickner, a sergeant with the 1st Marine Division, had an even more fantastic encounter with mysterious aerial objects. "The sightings occured on Aug. 12, 1942, about 10 in the morning while I was in bivouac with my squad on the island of Tulagi in the southern Solomons, west of Guadalcanal," he recalled. It was a bright tropical morning with high banks of white, fleecy clouds. I was cleaning my rifle on the edge of my foxhole, when suddenly athe air raid warning was sounded. There had been no 'Condition Red.' I immediately slid into my foxhole, with my back to the ground and my face turned up to the sky. I heard the formation before I saw it. Even then, I was puzzled by the sound. It was a mighty roar that seemed to echo in the heavens. It didn't sound at all like the 'sewing-machine' drone of the Jap formations. A few seconds later, I saw the formation of silvery objects directly overhead. "At the time I was in a highly emotional state; it was my fifth day in combat with the Marines. It was quite easy to mistake anything in the air for Jap planes, which is what I thought these objects were. They were= flying very high above the clouds, too high for a bombing run on our little island. Someone shouted in a nearby foxhole that they were Jap planes searching for our fleet. I accepted this explanation, but with a few reservations. = First, the formation was huge, I would say over 150 objects were in it. Instead of the usual tight 'V' of 25 planes, this formation was in straight lines of 10 or 12 objects, one behind the other. The speed was a little faster than Jap planes, and they were soon out of sight. A few other things puzzled me: I couldn't seem to make out any wings or tails. They seemed to wobble slightly, and every time they wobbled they would shimmer brightly from the sun. Their colour was like highly polished silver. No bombs were dropped, of course. All in all, it was the most awe-inspiring and yet frightening spectacle I have seen in my life." What may be one of the best UFO photographs in existence lies buried in U.S. and British intelligence files, if we are to credit the testimony of "C.J.J.", an informant known to ufologist Leonard Stringfield. C.J.J. was attached to a wing of an antisubmarine squadron that patrolled the Bay of Bascay off France. One day in November 1942, the plane's tail gunner spotted a "massive" object without wings, which apppeared, suddenly, behind the bomber. Stunned at the strange sight, he alerted the rest of the crew, including C.J.J., who was in the nose turret. By the time he climbed into the waist gunner's position, virtually everyone on board was watching the "thing," which remained in sight for 15 minutes. Sgt M.F.B. was busy taking pictures with a K-20 camera. The object soon gained altitude and did an abrupt 180-degree before disappearing. Only one of the pictures--the one taken with a filter--turned out, and it was, in C.J.J.'s words, "a perfect print." Today, more than 30 years later, it has yet to be released. Usually foos were amorphous lights, not the kind of apparently solid, craft- like objects Brickner, C.J.J., and several other witnesses reported. Royal Air Force pilot B.C. Lumsden observed two classic foos while flying a Hurricane interceptor over France in December 1942. Lumsden had taken off from England at seven p.m., heading for the French coast, using the Somme River as a navigation point. An hour later, while cruising at 7,000 feet over the mouth of the Somme, he discovered that he had company: two steadily climbing orange-coloured lights, with one slightly above the other. He thought it might be tracer flak but discarded the idea when he saw how slowly the objects were moving. He did a full turn and saw the lights astern and to port but now they were larger and brighter. At 7,000 feet they stopped climbing and stayed level with Lumsden's Hurricane. The frightened pilot executed a full turn again, only to discover that the objects had hung behind him on the turn. Lumsden had no idea what he was seeing. All he knew was that he didn't like it. He nosedived down to 4,000 feet and the lights followed his every maneuver, keeping their same relative position. Finally they descended about 1,000 feet below him until he leveled out, at which point they climbed again and resumed pursuit. The two lights seemed to maintain an even distance from each other and varied only slightly in relative height from time to time. One always remained a bit lower than the other. At last, as Lumsden's speed reached 260 miles per hour, he was gradually able to outdistance the foos. "I found it hard to make other members of the squadron believe me when I told my story," Lumsden said, "but the following night one of the squadron flight commanders in the same area had a similar experience with a green light." We have no specific date on the following story, which Sgt. Dirk Wylie recounted in a letter published in the May 1946 issue of Ray Palmer's Amazing Stories: "In 1942 I was on a little island outpost off the southern U.S. coast. While on duty at the observation post one clear, moonless night, I saw a brightly glowing, unidentified object, like a flare in appearance,= travelling horizontally over the sea at moderate speed; I can't even guess at its size, height or distance from where I was. "Possibly 30 seconds or a minute after my first glimpse of it, the object plummeted straight down toward the water and disappeared. I watched the area where it had vanished, and a couple of minutes later it reappeared, rising swiftly in apparently an absolute vertical line until it was out of sight." If there were foo sightings in 1943, as surely there must have been, we have no record of them. One possible explanation for the scarcity of reports= from that year is that, since at that time UFOs were usually assumed to be secret military weapons, military security kepts reports out of the press and discouraged observers from speaking to outsiders about their experiences. = It is also likely, though, that there were comparatively few sightings that year, because even after the war, when soldiers were free to talk, few if= any recalled seeing UFOs in 1943. However, 1944, was another story altogether. From April of that year= through August 1945, there would be no shortage of bizarre phenomena in the sky. Among the first to witness the "things" were the radar plotters of the Argus 16 Combat Intelligence Center at Tarawa, where in April 1944 a "bogey," the blip of an unknown object, was tracjed moving at the then incredible speed= of 700 miles per hour. When the radar operators had determined there was nothing wrong with their sets, thwy had no choice but to conclude that it= was a supersonic Japanese plane. Of course, it wasn't, since after the war American intelligence experts found that the Japanese had no such fighter. The invasion of Europe, which began on June 6, 1944, at Normandy, apparently attracted the foos. At least one sighting was made at Omaha Beach from the deck of the U.S.S. George E. Badger, which lay anchored off shore. Gunner Edward Breckel, who was on duty, happened to be watching the sky when a dark cigar-shaped object crossed the horizon about five miles away. Visible for three minutes, the UFO, which was moving too low and too fast to be a blimp, travelled a smooth, circular course about 15 feet above the water. It had= no wings. Then there was the dispatch by George Todt, a columnist for the Los Angeles Herald-Examiner, who recalled, "On one occasion a party of four of us-- including a lieutenant colonel--watched a pulsating red fireball sail up silently to a point directly over the American-German front lines in 1944 during the Battle of Normandy. It stopped completely for 15 minutes before moving on." In 1950, Edward W. Ludwig of Stockton, Calif., recalled this very strange story: "It happened in the last week of June 1944. The small Coast Guard-manned cargo vessel, of which I was executive officer, was approaching the tiny island of Plamyra, about 800 miles southeast of Hawaii... Suddenly the atmosphere of calm was shattered by a crackling radio message telling us that a Navy patrol plane had been lost at sea. Plamyra naval authorities appealed for our assistance in the search. "So we cruised back and forth, shouting into the black still night, playing our searchlight beams over the dark waters. We found nothing. Not even a scrap of floating debris or spot of oil to indicate where the plane had crashed. Twenty-four hours later we anchored in the lagoon-harbor of Palmyra, weary, our minds numbed by the tragedy. "That midnight I was on watch on our ship's bridge. Suddenly I glimpsed= what first appeared to be a brilliant star, high in the dark sky over the island. As I watched, the light began to swell like a balloon and to come closer. I grabbed my binoculars, hoping for an instant that teh lost plane might be returning. "But I soon saw that the object in the sky was neither plane nor star. It was definitely round, a sphere hovering above me, motionless and silent, and at least five times as bright as the most brilliant star. The sphere began to move with almost imperceptible slowness. Then it stopped... For half an hour the light continued its slow, purposeful maneuvers until it covered an area of approximately 90 degrees. At last it headed northward, away from= the island and in the direction where the plane had been lost. "The following morning I made inquiries, my mind toying with the thought= that the two incidents--the sphere and the lost plane--might be related. The Naval lieutenant in charge told me that absolutely no aircraft had been= aloft that night and that no Japanese could possible be within 1,000 miles. "He was extremely puzzled by the problem of the missing plane. Its radio direction finder, he believed, had somehow malfunctioned, resulting in a reversal of directions. But this theory, of course, would not explain why two experienced pilots, familiar with the area, would fly directly into the setting sun, away from the island, instead of in the opposite and correct direction. I will never forget the lieutenant's final words. 'Perhaps,' he suggested, 'the inhabitants of the strange sphere wanted specimens'." Admittedly in this instance any connection between the plane disappearance and the UFO is purely speculative, but Ludwig's account is interesting in view of the growing number of aircraft disappearances in which UFOs seem to be connected. The Kinross Air Force Base incident of Nov. 23, 1953, is the most famous of these cases. Shortly after midnight on Aug. 10, 1944, a B-29 was returning to Ceylon= after a bombing mission over Palembang, Sumatra, when, as the pilot said "my copilot reported a strange object pacing us about 500 yards off the= starboard wing. At that distance it appeared as a sperical object, probably five or six feet in diameter, of a very bright or intense red or orange in color. It seemed to have a halo effect. "My gunner reported it coming in from about the five o'clock position at our level. It seemed to throb or vibrate constantly. Assuming it was some kind of radio-controlled object sent to pace us, I went into evasive action, changing direction constantly, as much as 90 degrees and altitude about= 2,000 feet. It followed our every maneuver for about eight minutes, always= holding a position about 500 yards out and about two o'clock in relation to the plane. When it left, it made an abrupt 90 degree turn; accelerating= rapidly, it disappeared into the overcast." Late in August, during the Battle of Brest in France, a UFO was seen by two men of the 175th Infantry Regiment. As members of a mine-laying platoon, they were entrenched a few thousand yards outside the city waiting for the Germans to launch a counterattack. The night was clear and quiet. "I saw this craft travelling no faster than a Piper Cub on a straight course," one of them told NICAP years later; he asked that his name not be published. "When I got over the shock of seeing this silent aircraft, I tapped Sergeant Ness on the shoulder, motioning for him to look up... When he looked skyward, he leaped to his feet to stare at this pehnomenon... Both of us were so awed, we forgot the war. If you knew Sergeant Ness as I knew him, you would know that he was too clever a combat soldier to stand= up, even at night, near the enemy. So it had to be awesome. "I swear to God, it was the same as a railroad boxcar, retangular not cylindrical... It seemed five times as large as a boxcar... I looked= closely for evidence of propellors, wings, or other protruding devices, but saw none on the three edges visible to us. There was absolutely no noise from it. = It traveled at no more than 90 miles per hour. We had a long look at it before it vanished over the sea. Neither the German nor the American antiaircraft batteries opened fire..." For a brief moment the UFO passed across the surface of the moon and blotted it out. It finally vanished out to sea. (Amazingly, a strikingly similar object was observed in Apache, Okla., that October. The witness, Robert Spearman, had just returned from a fishing= trip and was standing on his front porch when a "rushing wind sound" made him= look up into the midday sky. There he saw a "silver train--like a streamlined passenger train--of our make with about nine coaches with landing gear that looked like inflated pillow-like wheels for soft landing... It traveled= from east to west with a swish sound." Moving low and "very fast," it was= visible for 10 minutes. It passed behind Spearman's 60-foot windmill about 100 yeards to the south of the house before disappearing.) Another UFO appeared over Sumatra in September. The witnesses, members of the Japanese Imperial Navy, thought the object was the size of a B-29 at 8,000 feet. It was white, egg-shaped, and brilliant. In 1958 Carson Yorke, who in 1944 was a lance corporal with the first Canadian Army fighting in northwestern Europe, recalled this sighting: "This occured in September 1944, just outside Antwerp, Belgium, which the Germans were bombarding at the time with V-2 rockets. At about nine p.m. I stepped out of my vehicle and on looking upward saw a glowing globe= traveling from the direction of the front line toward Antwerp. It seemed to be about three or four feet in diameter and looked as though it was cloudy glass with a light inside. It gave [off] a soft white glow. Its altitude seemed to be about 40 feet, speed about 30 miles per hour, and there was no sound of any sort. "I noted that the object was not simply drifting with the wind but was obviously powered and controlled. Immediately [after] it had gone out of view it was followed by another which in turn was followed by five others in all. "During this time I called some other men out to see so the objects were observed by about five men. We weren't very impressed at the time because the Germans were using so many new weapons against us, such as the V-1 and V-2, so we assumed that these were simply some new sort of device of theirs. Also, remember that these objects were apparently following the same course V-2s which were falling on Antwerp regularly at the time, one every few minutes if I remember correctly." Near Weert, in southeastern Holland, half a dozen men spotted a "brillant point of light" at 9:30 one clear October evening. They quickly notified their commander, Capt. J.B. Douglas, Jr., who studied it through binoculars, noting that "the object appeared slightly larger and more brilliant--just as a planet would when viewed through field glasses." Passing slightly to the= =7F south and directly above the witnesses, it remained in sight for about 45 minutes. All during 1944-45 Allied airmen over Germany encountered what B-17 pilot Charles Odom described as "crystal balls", clear, about the size of basketballs." They would approach to within 300 feet of the bomber formation, "then would seem to become magnetized to our formation and fly alongside... After a while, they would peel off like a plane and leave." Mostly they were seen at night but some airmen reported spotting them during daylight hours. Over the Rhine Valley early one November evening in 1944, Lt. Henry Giblin and his radar observer, Lt. Walter Cleary, sighted a "huge red light" 1,000 feet above them (they were flying at 1,000 feet). The object was moving at about 200 miles per hour. About the same time two other airmen encountered a "glowing red object" which shot up vertically, turned over, and plunged into a steep dive. The witnesses were sure the thing was under intelligent control. Later that month, the Lincoln and Welland Regiment of the Canadian Army, stationed south of the Maas River, watched a star-like object cross the night sky toward the east. After 20 minutes is disappeared. About eight or 10 bright orange lights startled the crew of an American aircraft connected with the 415th Night Fighter Squadron as the plane= cruised the Rhine River area north of Strasbourg one November night. Curiously, the lights, which were moving across the sky at remendous speed, did not show up on either ground or aircraft radar. The pilot, Lt. Ed Schlueter, banked= into them expecting a dogfight, but much to his astonishment the objects completely disappeared, only to reappear seconds later. After five minutes the lights were gone. According to Maj. William D. Leet, "My B-17 crew and I were kept company by= a 'foo fighter,' a small amber disc, all the way from Klagenfurt, Austria, to the Adriatic Sea. This occured on a 'lone wolf' mission at night, as I recall, in December 1944 in the 15th Air Force, 5th Wing, 2nd Bomb Group. The intelligence officer who debriefed us stated that it was a new German fighter but could not explain why it did not fire at us or, if it was reporting our heading, altitude, and airspeed, why we did not receive antiaircraft fire." Some time in late 1944, a P-47 pilot west of Neustadt, Germany, saw "a gold-colored ball with a metallic finish" moving slowly through the air. = The sun was low in the sky so the observer could not tell if the sun was reflecting off the object or if the object had its own light source. A "phosphorescent golden sphere" three to five feet in diameter was seen by another P-47 pilot in the area. On December 22nd a pilot with the 415 Night Fighter Squadron encountered two "large orange glows" which climbed rapidly toward him as he flew over Hagenau, Germany, at six a.m. The radar operator also saw the strange objects. "Upon reaching our altitude," the pilot said, they "leveled off and stayed= on my tail." He excecuted a steep dive, a sharp bank, and other intricate maneuvers but the objects matched them all. "After staying with the plane for two minutes," he said, "they peeled off and turned away, flying under perfect control, and then went out." Foo fighers continued to plague the 415th all through January 1945. Usually the lights, colored orange, red, or white, would tail the aircraft for a few moments before streaking away. The ghostly objects never showed up on= radar, but the veteran crews discounted theories that the glowing globes were reflections, St. Elmo's fire, or flares, all of which they had observed many and would have easily recognized. One pilot even insisted that he had felt prop wash as the foos zipped passed him. That same month George Todt, in the company of 50 or 60 Frenchmen, watched a glowing object in the sky over Paris. "We all saw the same thing," he said. "It was neither an hallucination nor a 'temperature inversion'." Robert Crawford, now a consulting geologist, was one of 14 sailors who witnessed an incredible sight south of the Aleutian Islands in March 1945. Crawford and the other sailors were aboard the U.S. Army transport Delarof when they saw a dark sphere suddenly erupt out of the water half a mile= away, circle the ship, and fly away in an instant. He estimated the UFO to have been about 400 feet in diameter. On March 25th elements of the 6th Armored Division were dug in south of Darmstadt, Germany, east of and overlooking the Autobahn when a formation= of=7F UFOs flew overhead. Later in the evening 30 soldiers watched six or seven bright yellow-orange circular objects approach the Autobahn from the west at an altitude of about 150 feet. The lights were not traveling in formation; whle moving in the same general direction as the rest, each object had its own distinct erratic movement as if individually controlled. They were three to four feet in diameter and so bright that they illuminated the trees around them. They descended slowly, moving about 10 miles per hour, until they entered the forest. After five or six minutes the foos were too far inside the dense forest to be visible any longer. Even the combat-hardened observers found the sight eerie and frightening. Germans were also seeing unconventional arial objects which they, like their Allied counterparts, assumed to be enemy weapons. A resident of Dresden= gave=7F this accounts to the German UFO magazine Weltraumbote in 1958: "It happened here, in March or early April 1945. I had a clear view of the sky from my position. My first thought was that it was an airplane. But I could see plainly that it was round, and had neither propeller nor wings. Also, it was hovering noislessly in the air. Then it suddenly disappeared, like a broken soap bubble. I also recall that the unfamiliar object was silvery-colored and flat--not round like a baloon. I especially remember= the sudden disappearance, like something that wanted to avoid my gaze... The= war was till going on at the time, and that evening I spoke to a friend. 'Oh, did you see it, too?' he asked. No doubt aircraft pilots also observed it." In April, aerial gunner James V. Byrnes observed a "crystal ball" as it= paced his B-24 bomber at a distance of about 30 to 40 feet. "This object was definitely no hallucination," he told NICAP many years later. A few days before V-E Day in May 1945, a yellowish-white foo, "brighter than any star, or even the planet Venus... passed completely from horizon to horizon in about two seconds," according to Lynn R. Momo, who was on guard duty at Ohrdorf, a small hamlet on the Elbe about 40 miles west of Berlin. "Its speed was enormous," and it made no sound. Momo was certain its altitude was no more than 2,000 feet. As we already have noted, radar sightings of UFOs during WWII were extremely rare, but they were not nonexistant, as Andrew V. Amrose, a radar operator with an antiaircraft battalion, was able to attest. "I had frequently picked up a target on the radar screen that appeared to be a conventional aircraft," he said. "But... upon being tracked [it] would accelerate to a fantastic speed, which made it impossible to set a rate on and even more difficult to identify. So we referred to them as 'ghosts'... I have always been puzzled by the occurrence of these sightings I have personally made on radar." William A. Mandel of Los Angeles recalled: "During the summer of 1945 I was stationed in northern Okinawa. I was an artillery captain on duty with the military government. I don't recall the exact date. "Our bivouac was situated on a bluff facing the East China Sea and overlooking a very narrow stretch of beach. On a clear moonlight evening I was gazing seaward when I suddenly saw a bright speck of light approaching from the south paralleling the coast. "The light proved to be coming from the rear of a cigar-shaped object which I could see quite clearly. It gave out no light except from the tail. It passed me at a distance of no more than 500 yards and must have been considerably closer. I judged its speed at from 200 to 300 miles per hour (definitely not jet or rocket speed) at an altitude of not over 400 feet-- probably less since it seemed to pass me at eye level and I stood no more than 200 feet above sea level. "The object had no wings nor were there any ports or windows visible. The object moved smoothly and silently at a constant speed along the coast until it disappeared from sight. I judged the object to be 30 to 40 feet long with a diameter of six to eight feet." Another series of sightings from the Pacific theatre occurred somewhat earlier, on the nights of May 23rd and 25th. During the bombing raids on Tokyo Americans and Japanese saw objects described as "round, speedy balls= of fire" and "flying hotcakes." The weird lights, about 20 yards in diameter, "were blue--maybe grey... They were followedseveral times six foot wide and 30 foot long colored air waves," in the words of one witness Tomoyo Okado. Andrew Cimbala of Duquesne, Pa., told this story in 1954: "In August 1945, while in the Navy, I had the anchor watch at Ulithi in the South Pacific. Just after sunset, while it was not yet dark enough for the stars to show, I saw a red streak appear in the sky to the east. It traveled directly over my head, heading west toward Japan. It was visible for 40 seconds or more from the time it came into view. It reminded me of a hot bar of steel about a half inch wide and about a foot long. It was not a flame. No object of any kind was visible in front of the red streak." Leonard Stringfield, who would later become a prominent ufologist, was among those aboard a C-46 en route to occupy Atssgi Airdrome, near Tokyo, on= August 28th, just prior to the proposed major Allied landing of occupation forces. Suddenly, midway between Ie Shoma and Iwo Jima, the plane's left engine= began to fail. "As the plane dipped, sputtered oil, and lost altitude," he wrote, "I remember looking out through one of the windows and to my surprise, seeing three unidentifiable blobs of brilliant white light, each about the size of= a dime held at arm's length." The lights traveled in a straight line through the clouds, keeping pace and staying parallel with the C-46. "When my plane pulled up," Stringfield said, "the objects remained below and then disappeared into a could bank." It was only years later that Stringfield, who my then had become familiar with cases in which UFOs seem to have cause electromagnetic interference= with planes and cars, thought to connect the sputtering engine with the enigmatic blobs. He remembered that it had been the left engine which had malfunctioned, and that the UFOs had been on that side of the aircraft. That same monthe the crew of the U.S.S. Bradford spotted a "star" streaking across the sky 600 miles east-southeast of Kyushu, Japan. After turing right, it shot upward at fantastic speed, later estimated to be about 3,000 miles per hour. Oddly, according to Lt. Dan MacDougald, though "we were equipped with surface search, air search, and fire control radar... none... could pick up the object." One curious feature of the WWII sightings is the abscence of landing or occupant reports. If there were any, to our knowledge no one has come foward with information to this effect. Of course, we assume for the moment that some kind of intelligence directs the UFOs, we might speculate that the ufonauts considered such activity too dangerous--they might have been mistaken for enemy soldiers and shot at. But that, as we say, is just speculation. Another puzzling aspect of all this, in view of the many post-1947 radar cases, is the foos' way of foiling radar scopes. Skeptics have always taken delight in this fact, seeing it as proof that the objects were in fact optical illusions ir natural phenomena. Those not content with such simpleminded solutions include researcher John Keel, who believes that the amorphous lights which figure in most WWII accounts, and in many postwar reports as well, are the "real" UFOs. The so-called craft--the discs, cigar-shapes, and the other objects out of whose appearances flying saucer enthusiasts have fashioned the interplanetary theory of UFO origin--in Keel's opinion are really engineered to mislead us. Whether this is true or not, there is no denying that the foo fighters were something very strange indeed. Today, 30 years later, we know no more about their origin and purpose than did the author of an article published in the December 1945 American Legion Magazine, and we can only echo his concluding words: "Meanwhile, the foo fighter mystery continues unsolved... and your guess as to what they were is as good as mine, for nobody really knows." [End]
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Re: Re: Richard Motzer and CSICOP From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:48:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 02:08:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Re: Richard Motzer and CSICOP >From: EdKomarek@aol.com >Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 14:18:29 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Richard Motzer and CSICOP >>Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 02:28:19 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Richard Motzer and CSICOP >>The e-mail that was originally circulated by Ed Komarek re: Phoenix, was >>the worst report of information to come down the pike since Christ left >>Chicago. No names, no info, no nothing, other than rumor, speculation and >>another opportunistic shot at the character of his 'favorite meat', Kal >>Korff, the **Karla of the Intelligence Community according to Ed. Ed responds with,... >You are certianly one to bite the hand that feeds you, John. "The hand that feeds me !?! " --- Let's see how can I put this politely so that Errol won't bounce my response to you. "the hand that feeds me"....my gluteus maximus! <G> Do you assume that my involvement with ufology puts bread on my table? You couldn't be more wrong. Or, are you trying to correlate my rejection of you with a rejection of ufology,... which according to you "feeds me"! Too convoluted for me to follow or even contemplate. Which is precisely the reason I want off your e-mail list! Too convoluted. <I will take your name off the mailing list. Thank you much. With that little bit of news you've single handedly returned me to "happy camper" status, you should feel proud! <G> John Velez * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Re: The disappearing regiment in WWI From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:46:39 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:27:15 -0400 Subject: Re: The disappearing regiment in WWI > From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, on 5/17/97 1:07 AM: > Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:03:08 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: The disappearing regiment in WWI > A friend was asking me if I knew where this large-scale abduction event > is written up within the UFO literature. I came across it years ago > and can't remember now where I saw it. Can someone on the List? > It involved British soldiers, as I recall, engaged against Turkish soldiers > in WWI. The one group marched into a "cloud," which then lifted up and off. This appears on p 98 of Vallee's "Passport To Magonia" paperback edition ISBN 0-8092-3796-2 ------- Mark Cashman, creator of the Temporal Doorway at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/5623/ Original digital art, writing and UFO research mcashman@ix.netcom.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Re: CSICOP & Korff's Relationship From: "Thomson" <thomhack@polbox.com> [Thomson Mason] Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 00:15:58 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:33:58 -0400 Subject: Re: CSICOP & Korff's Relationship > From: thomhack@polbox.com > Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:40:14 (CET) > To: Updates@globalserve.net > Subject: re : CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! Hi Mr. Korff, Hi All ! I'm quite new here and I've got some questions: > 4) I also know that after I exposed the hoax claims of Billy Meier, I knew I > would take on Roswell and maybe even Bob Lazaar. This was based on years of > research on these issues and cases, with which I have yet to make public. Is there ANY CASES that Mr. Korff describes as real and not-hoax ? (except his own sighting, of course...) > my positions on things. Despite my best efforts to explain everything to him > (and a small handful of others) he and they are still in denial of this > reality. "..explain everything..." ??? Mr Korff just asking questions and questions. But he says not even single word about his own opinion. Greetings from Poland Thomson , thomhack@polbox.com Confuscious saying: "Korff is a debunker"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Albert K. Bender? From: "R.Bull" <RAB@cadcentre.co.uk> [Rob Bull] Date: Mon, 19 May 97 09:28:00 PDT Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:31:00 -0400 Subject: Albert K. Bender? Hi everybody. I'm doing some research into Men In Black at the moment and I am wondering if Albert K. Bender is still alive and, if so, where could he be contacted? I checked "Switchboard" at http://www.switchboard.com , nothing there. I have spoke to someone who tells me that (unlike his friend and publisher Gray Barker) he IS still alive, living somewhere in the USA and no longer interested in UFOs but in orchestral music. Could anyone out there help me out? Thanks, Rob Bull
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Re: Green Lights? From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 02:02:28 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:28:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Green Lights? > From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, on 5/17/97 5:30 PM: > To: updates@globalserve.net > From: livesey@trump.net.au (Stuart Livesey) > Subject: green lights > Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 06:59:34 GMT+1000 > I am interested in hearing from anyone who has encountered the type of UFOs > that my wife and I saw in March last year. > We were driving home, along a highway around 2100 when our car was "buzzed" > by > two green lights. At first we thought they were bolides/shooting stars but > when they both rose to clear a footbridge, that spanned the highway, and > then > dropped back to their previous height we knew we were looking at something > unexplained. There are, of course, the famous "green meteors" of the US southwest from the early period of UFO observations. Also, a case from 1959 in New Zealand described the underside of the object as displaying two green lights in "dents". > Since then I have been looking for other instances like ours but I haven't > found anything that quite fits what we saw. I would also like to see some > input regarding UFO demographics. Can we begin to put together a list of > the places where UFOs are seen most frequently and can we draw any > conclusions > from this? I believe you are referring to geographics rather than demographics. Demographics is the study of the characteristics of populations (for instance, UFO witnesses), while you seem to be interested in a study of the geographic distribution of UFO reports. There are a variety of different studies of the geographic components of specific waves, but I am not aware of any comprehensive geographic study. However, there are severe selection effects to be considered in validating such a study: 1) Knowledge of the existence of UFO phenomena as a separate category of experience 2) Availability of UFO research groups 3) Availability of modern communication and information storage systems (including archives, newspapers, and libraries) 4) Geographic and meteorologic knowledge held by the indigenous population ... etc. ------- Mark Cashman, creator of the Temporal Doorway at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/5623/ Original digital art, writing and UFO research mcashman@ix.netcom.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Lazar's 'Story'? From: "Thomson" <thomhack@polbox.com> [Thomson Mason] Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 00:13:08 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:35:13 -0400 Subject: Lazar's 'Story'? Hi All I'm looking for details about Lazar's story. I'm particulary interested in physics details, such as element 115, gravity waves, matter-antimatter reaction etc. Thaks in advance ! Greetings from Poland Thomson , thomhack@polbox.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Re: MSN UFO Webshow 'debunks' Left at East Gate From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 02:03:46 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:29:51 -0400 Subject: Re: MSN UFO Webshow 'debunks' Left at East Gate >Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 20:30:15 -0400 >From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: MSN UFO Webshow 'debunks' Left at East Gate >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Regarding... >>Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:50:52 -0500 >>From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) >>Subject: Tonight's MSN UFO Webshow (which) debunks Left at East Gate >John posted some comments from Peter Robbins, co-author of "Left at >East Gate", which read: >>My own, and my co-author's conversations with Mr. Halt were recorded >>(with his knowledge and permission) and transcribed; they appear in >>the book. >>Quoting from them, and from Mr. Randle's comments on the internet, >>what do you deduce? > >Randle: . . Halt in various interviews after the events has said > >that there were only two nights, no third. > >Robbins (to Halt): . It involved the approximate time of the > >incident. > >Halt: which incident? There were three nights. (p.328) James writes, >John, >Perhaps we can deduce that Halt says there were three nights, not >three incidents. Oh brother James, I will pass on a copy of your e-mail to Peter as I will be seeing him this week. But,...I am not (and do not wish to be) a part of this thread in any way other than forwarding messages for Peter who is not web connected. I will forward yours to him, if he wishes to respond I'll post it. Ahh ham not now, nor haz ahh evah bin an expoit on Bendwawders! So rather than show my ignorance, I have chosen to stay out. :) John Velez, (Monkey in the middle) * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Re: The disappearing regiment in WWI From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:46:39 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:58:31 -0400 Subject: Re: The disappearing regiment in WWI > From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, on 5/17/97 1:07 AM: > Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:03:08 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: The disappearing regiment in WWI > A friend was asking me if I knew where this large-scale abduction event > is written up within the UFO literature. I came across it years ago > and can't remember now where I saw it. Can someone on the List? > It involved British soldiers, as I recall, engaged against Turkish soldiers > in WWI. The one group marched into a "cloud," which then lifted up and off. This appears on p 98 of Vallee's "Passport To Magonia" paperback edition ISBN 0-8092-3796-2 ------- Mark Cashman, creator of the Temporal Doorway at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/5623/ Original digital art, writing and UFO research mcashman@ix.netcom.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 '84 Omni Mag Lake Ontario UFO Photo? From: "rose rotis" <rotis_@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 07:28:10 PDT Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:20:37 -0400 Subject: '84 Omni Mag Lake Ontario UFO Photo? Hello, I am trying to locate a photo of a UFO that appeared in Omni Magazine, sometime in the spring or summer of 1984, in the Continuum section. This photo was of a cigar shaped object flying over the water,one end up at a angle, with portholes, and a tower like structure at the lower end. I believe the pic showed the left side up at an angle, with the structure on right side. Caption specifically said "Taken from Lake Ontario shore" If anyone knows this photo and how I could get it, the information would be very much appreciated! Thanks, rose
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Re: ORTK Report on Phoenix, AZ, City Meeting From: bhamilto@pcshs.com Date: Mon, 19 May 97 08:25:11 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:36:00 -0400 Subject: Re: ORTK Report on Phoenix, AZ, City Meeting >Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:28:45 -0400 >From: Richard Motzer <RFMmars@AOL.COM> >Subject: Re: [Fwd: UFO UpDate: ORTK Report on Phoenix, AZ, City Meeting] >To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM >That meeting was helded at Village Labs were I presented our findings that >the lights the night of 3-13-97 were FLARES over and behind the Estrella >Mountains and not over the City of Phoenix. You bet when Extra ran the story >there was not a mention of this. >This does not explain the V formation that night with I have the original >source tape shot on HI 8 I was also present at Village Labs for the meeting and was an eyewitness to the lights seen near the Estrella Mountains. Since we could see the lights in front of the mountains and below the peaks (around 4,500 ft) and you could prove this from the video, and since the lights were not suspended from any parachutes, emitted no sparks or smoke as usual with flares, and were in a stationary position for more than 4 minutes, and did not illuminate the terrain, the conclusion of experts is that these were NOT FLARES. I concur with the experts. I have seen flares on many occasions over military operation areas (MOAs) and they always drifted or emitted smoke and sparks. All sightings from 3-13-97 over the Valley of the Sun in Arizona to this date remain in the "unknown" category. Bill Hamilton Executive Director SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL Home e-mail: billh46088@aol.com, starmanbh@aol.com Work e-mail: bhamilto@pcshs.com SKYWATCH website: http://www.wic.net/colonel/ufopage.htm ALIEN MAGIC website: http://members.aol.com/billh46088/newhome.htm "It is easier to ridicule than investigate, but not as profitable" - Alan Search for other documents from or mentioning: bhamilto | rfmmars |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Re: ORTK Report on Phoenix, AZ, City Meeting From: bhamilto@pcshs.com [Bill Hamilton] Date: Mon, 19 May 97 08:09:54 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:35:50 -0400 Subject: Re: ORTK Report on Phoenix, AZ, City Meeting >From: EdKomarek@aol.com >Subject: ORTK COMFIDENTIAL REPORT ON AZ CITY COUNCIL UFO MEETING >ORTK confidential report on AZ City Council UFO meeting >ORTK Bulletin Editor: I recieved this report from a confidential source this >evening and hopefully others will be able to confirm this story. This person >is known to me. >Sincerely, Ed Komarek ________________________________________________ >A local official here in Phoenix asked Airforce officials for an >explanation about the so called "Phoenix Lights" seen over Phoenix >and parts of Arizona last month. Meanwhile, a computer lab wizard >had a team of guys working on a computer model of the sightings. >The info gathered from 6 (maybe more, I'm not sure) different video >cameras was used to triangulate the size and movements of the craft. >This analysis was then released to the press. Hard copy, special >edition and several networks around the western hemisphere and South >America. >On Wenesday, several Officers from Luke Airforce Base, officials from >the FAA and members of the city council all gathered (independantly?) >at the offices of the scientist. The officials cleared the room and >seemed very upset about the computer anamation being released to the >media and hinted (More than hinted, really) at national security issues. >They demanded to know how the (computer) model was made. On Wednesday, May 14, there was a meeting at Village Labs in Tempe. Present was only one city council member, Frances Barwood, who asked the city to investigate the Phoenix sightings. Also present was her husband and a man named Mike Johnson, an electro-optical engineer. Earlier that day, 2 Air Traffic controllers were interviewed by the people from EXTRA (TV), but I saw no officers from Luke or other city council members. I was present with my wife and Tom King and several other witnesses. Sincerely, Bill Hamilton Executive Director SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL Home e-mail: billh46088@aol.com, starmanbh@aol.com Work e-mail: bhamilto@pcshs.com SKYWATCH website: http://www.wic.net/colonel/ufopage.htm ALIEN MAGIC website: http://members.aol.com/billh46088/newhome.htm "It is easier to ridicule than investigate, but not as profitable" - Alan Search for other documents from or mentioning: bhamilto | edkomarek |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Re: UFOs over Brooklyn, NY - April 26 1997 From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:58:34 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:58:34 -0400 Subject: Re: UFOs over Brooklyn, NY - April 26 1997 From: XELAUFO@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:10:50 -0400 (EDT) To: updates@globalserve.net Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFOs over Brooklyn, NY - April 26 1997 Hi John, Thanks for your honest reply. The reason I termed them "LIGHTSHIPS "is due to the fact most "unknows " which are seen as light are termed "LIGHTSHIPS". It was not meant to imply NEW AGE !!!!..the term "lightship" has been used for at least 30 years or more so far as I can remember . I see these objects all the time in this area and have many pictures of them. I have some taken from a closer altitude and they appear to be very much like solid light objects with no apparent metal like structures visible. I thank you for you reply and if I get better ones I might send them and post them on SKYWATCH. There is also a video of the event under investigation by my image experts. I also have a 3 minute video from 1994 of a so-called " LIGHTSHIP " over the Verrazano Bridge area of Brooklyn. This was taken from about 3 -5 miles away, by myself. thank you ALEX CAVALLARI ============================================================= HERE IS MY BIOGRAPHY AND A PICTURE OF ME BIOGRAPHY 1997 ALEX CAVALLARI 2740 BROWN STREET BROOKLYN, N.Y. 11235 TEL# 718 332 1041 Internet World Wide Web Site: http://www.allmedianow.com E - Mail: alex@allmedianow.com : xelaufo@aol.com Electronic Designer / Consultant F.C.C. Licensed Amateur Radio Operator Technician Plus KB2NYV UFO / PARANORMAL Research / Investigation Founder of UFO PARANORMAL MEDIA UPM Television Program Producer, Talk Show Host Research and Designer of Electronic "Interdimensional Communication Systems" "ICS" Internet World Wide Web Site Designer / Consultant New York State Director of SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL, INC. International Ghost Hunter Society - Member Alex Cavallari has submitted proposals for the SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION of "THE ABDUCTION PHENOMENON" to the Mutual UFO Network (Mufon). He has been OWNER and HOST / CO-HOST of a LIVE TELEVISION PROGRAM called "INVESTIGATION UFO" for 44 weeks during 1994 - 1995 on COMMERCIAL TELEVISION U.H.F. CHANNEL 53 WWAC ATLANTIC CITY N.J. He has supplied the TV SHOW "SIGHTINGS" with information in the area of UFO / PARANORMAL activity. He also has been written up in OMNI Magazine November 1994, "PROJECT OPEN BOOK" and PENTHOUSE Magazine December 1994, "LET THE PROJECT BEGIN" for his involvement in a UFO EVENT over Brooklyn New York.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:33:17 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 18:47:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? > Date: 18 May 97 21:27:13 EDT > From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? > >Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 00:13:01 -0400 > >From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? > Well, the third accusation of governmental collaboration in > a week. I wish I could get the buggers to part with some > cash for it. Are you having a reading problem? Even if you were deliberately spreading incorrect information it does not entitle you to any goverment position, do you often fantasize about working for the government? There are many other explanations for this behavior, counter-intelligence agent isn't necessarily in the top ten. > Thanks for the offers, but I think I'll freelance it for a bit. > Gary wrote; > >> Thirty years, either you are a deliberately spreading incorrect > information or don't bother to read the reports of the government's own > committee handling the issues of secrecy and declassification. << > You decide. <Bwahahahahhahahhaha!> Thats a pretty inappropriate response, your usual let's waste the time of people on this list by dodging the issue. > >> By the way the last publicly reported oldest material still held classified > dates back to the early 1900's. << > Now lets just extrapolate some stuff from that snippet, even though I am > more accustomed to the UK PRO declassification rules, unhampered by > messy old FOIA regulations and gubbins. You extrapolate just to ignore the point that you were wrong in your original statement. > While I mention the FOIA, how many documents over how long a time span > have been located that refer to UFOs? > >> that's either ignorance or intentional deception << > Presume it's ignorance, and control don't have your Email address, eh? > <wink> > >> e.g. you are forgetting that prominent scientists such as > Dr. Edward Teller were involved in researching the "green > fireball" problem (Project Twinkle) << > And the present incumbent of presidential scientific advisor was > involved in Remote-viewing. Big Whoop. > You don't think in the early days that scientists didn't get involved > in the subject on a level that would allow them to look at this > seriously before the fringe got involved bigtime? I know that scientists were involved but you tried to convey in your original post that goverment scientists weren't involved. So when a point of fact is made that shows your statement was erroneous you are off on a tangent about an irrelevant topic. Perhaps you have difficulty focusing on a topic. > >> the CIA's own declassified documents refer to its UFO experts << > Yup. Why acknowledge something that you originally stated didn't exist? Is there any integrity in the statements you post to this list? > >> and the NSA dispatched a agent of its own to investigate the Hudson > Valley sightings in the 1980's << > Yup. Confirmation of another example, I'm losing faith that I'll be able to read your posts without doing fact checking. > >> this was documented by Dr. Hynek in his book Night Siege << > Another noted pawn of the Pentagon... Another irrelevant response, speak man whats really on your mind? > >> Perhaps you > should familiarize yourself some history of the government's research > and involvement in the phenomenon. << > Perhaps. Do you know what DI61 is? Let's play a game, I'll answer no so you can show everyone how clever you are. > James A Diss Gary Alevy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: KRandle993@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:17:42 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 19:20:41 -0400 Subject: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context I've been waiting to see Kal Korff's book to see if he took my statement about relying only on the public record out of context. What a surprise. He did. The rest of the statement made it clear that I was suggesting that a number of the witnesses had since died. I had the opportunity to speak with them and I know what they told me. That put me one up on everyone. Edwin Easley did tell me that the craft was extraterrestrial. I have the notes of that conversation, which would be sufficient in most arenas to prove the conversation took place. But, since he said the craft was extraterrestrial, that can't be the truth. There must be another explanation. Korff has one, but I know it's wrong. He makes much of Stan Friedman's ridiculous assault of claiming I had made 38 false claims, ignoring the fact that originally it was 38 false claims of Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt. In the latest version I have inherited them all. Incredibly, I didn't even make some of the claims, but who cares. Let the tar fly. I've seen enough of Korff's book to know that similar misrepresentations and half-truths are used throughout. Korff made a big deal that Prometheus has published other books and that as a publisher, they are in business to make money. However, has Prometheus EVER published a book suggesting that UFOs might be real? They publish debunking books about these topics. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Re: '84 Omni Mag Lake Ontario UFO Photo? From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 19:14:22 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:42:12 -0400 Subject: Re: '84 Omni Mag Lake Ontario UFO Photo? > From: "rose rotis" <rotis_@hotmail.com> > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: UFO Photo Taken at Lake Ontario Sought > Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 07:28:10 PDT > I am trying to locate a photo of a UFO that appeared in Omni Magazine, > sometime in the spring or summer of 1984, in the Continuum section. > This photo was of a cigar shaped object flying over the water,one end > up at a angle, with portholes, and a tower like structure at the lower > end. I believe the pic showed the left side up at an angle, with the > structure on right side. Caption specifically said "Taken from Lake > Ontario shore" Rose, this sounds similar to the Mount Clemens photo of 1967, which was taken near at Lake St. Clair. You can have a look at the photos (two of four, digitally enlarged and cropped) as they appear in my paper at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/5623/tulsamtc.htm However, there are no "porthole" type structures visible in any of these daytime photos. I have been informed by CUFOS that these photos are considered to be hoaxes. I am currently making alterations to my paper to accomodate this new information. On the other hand, if the photo you are looking for is not the Mount Clemens photo, please let me know, since I am particularly interested in any photo showing the "tower-like" structure to which you refer. ------- Mark Cashman, creator of the Temporal Doorway at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/5623/ Original digital art, writing and UFO research mcashman@ix.netcom.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Re: The disappearing regiment in WWI From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:57:13 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:35:58 -0400 Subject: Re: The disappearing regiment in WWI >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >Subject: re: UFO UpDate: The disappearing regiment in WWI >Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:46:39 -0700 >> From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, on 5/17/97 1:07 AM: >> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:03:08 -0700 (PDT) >> From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> Subject: The disappearing regiment in WWI >> A friend was asking me if I knew where this large-scale abduction event >> is written up within the UFO literature. I came across it years ago >> and can't remember now where I saw it. Can someone on the List? >> It involved British soldiers, as I recall, engaged against Turkish soldiers >> in WWI. The one group marched into a "cloud," which then lifted up and off. >This appears on p 98 of Vallee's "Passport To Magonia" >paperback edition ISBN 0-8092-3796-2 >------- >Mark Cashman, creator of the Temporal Doorway at >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/5623/ >Original digital art, writing and UFO research >mcashman@ix.netcom.com It appears on p. 98 of the original hardback as well, and is referenced again as Case #41 (p. 188) in the Appendix to the same book, "A Century of UFO Landings." The problem with the "disappearing regiment" is that it just didn't happen--at least according to the best available evidence, as opposed, say, to the vaunted UFO "literature," which, of course, never makes misteaks. The story was pretty much discredited or debunked (the latter word used whenever someone disappoints ufologists' beliefs and/ or expectations and actually explains a case) in a series of articles by, I believe, Paul Begg, which first appeared in "The Unexplained," that highly esteemed English part work edited by none other than the Duke of Mendoza. Lest there are those who think Vallee was infallible, it should be pointed out that he also reproduces in Magonia the story of the 1897 William Hamilton "calfknapping" in conjunction with the Great Airship flap, which was later convincingly explained by notorious UFO debunker Jerome Clark as a patent hoax, produced by a local liar's club of the time. In short, the "missing regiment," what Deardorff refers to as a "mass abduction," appears to be a hoary myth on a par with the Hamilton calfknapping and the alleged crash of a Martian airship at Aurora, Texas in 1897 (including the subsequent burial of its pilot in the local cemetery). If people can't subject themselves to a critical faculty implant, they ought at least consider the notion that they shouldn't believe everything they read (or hear), Ed Komarek excepted, of course. Actually, in Vallee's defense, the following should be noted. In the same Appendix, p. 171, under the bold heading, "A Warning," he says: "We shall not apologize for the inclusion of reports that may with reason be regarded as unbelievable or ludicrous. We are not claiming that *any* of the reports in the list relates to a real physical event..."*We cannot accept responsibility for the mistakes of those who ignore this warning.*" [Emphasis in the original.] What we should probably be asking Deardorff and Komarek, then, is this: Has *any* UFO case ever been explained by *anyone* who wasn't a debunker, and if so, which one? The problem with Vallee's own anticipatory defense, is that he discusses several of the cases from the Appendix at length in the text of the book itself (missing regiment & Hamilton included) *as if they were credible and real events,* thus somewhat inflating the entire Magonia "argument." For a revisionist approach to Vallee's land of Magonia (a phrase which also equates to debunking, I suppose), one could consult "Magonia: A Re-evaluation" by Jean-Louis Brodu which appeared in Fortean Studies, Volume 2. Unfortunately, that might lead to a little exertion on one's part, ultimately resulting in thinking for one's self, maybe even re-evaluating some of the existing UFO shibboleths. Believe me, it's much easier just to go on believing in everything, rather than trying to conscientiously sort the wheat from the chaff. Missing in Action Cpl. B. F. Sasquatch First Fourth Norfolk (ANZAC) Hill 60 Regiment Survivor
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Un-Attributed 'Autopsy' Opinion From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:09:34 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:39:02 -0400 Subject: Un-Attributed 'Autopsy' Opinion Date: 18 May 97 22:35:16 EDT From: Theresa <70571.1735@CompuServe.COM> To: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Subject: Re: [Fwd: ALIEN AUTOPSY-PROBLEMS WITH IT ACCORDING TO KAL KORFF.] Dear Philip, >>In Kal Korff's new book 'The Roswell UFO Crash - What They Don't Want You To Know' he devotes one chapter entirely to the 'alien autopsy' film. It probably will not surprise you that Korff is adamant that the film is a hoax.<< I posted your message on the MUFON on Compuserve forum. I just posted it this weekend, so there may be more responses yet to come, but I was given permission to forward the following to you. ---------------------------------- start forwarded message Hi Theresa, Here are my qualifications to answer some of these questions: B.Sc. Biology, Computer Science (McGill University) D.D.S. (McGill University) -10 years practice in Dental Surgery -9 years Computer Consultant (Programming, Computer Graphics and 3D animation) PHOTOGRAPHIC >> Because none of these have hot flashes either, the film has been either edited or a more modern camera than the Filmo 70 was used. THis means that the integrity of the film is suspect, since it has obviously been manipulated by either Santilli or someone else". << Since no one has seen the original film footage, and our only view of the film is what has been transferred to video, it is very difficult to find out if the film as been edited. I am not an expert on those flashes that the camera might leave on the film, and if true this might be a real problem with the film. If Santilli says that the videotape circulated are a true frame by frame copy of the film reels without any attempts in editing bad footage this claim might be true. If what we are seeing is a montage of all the reels with all of the bad footage edited out, then this claim is irrelevant. Also since nobody as seen the original film stock the integrity of the film is suspect anyway <G>. Only then could we put that one to rest, and I cannot pronounce myself either way until such footage is released. MEDICAL >> The first obvious point has to do with the way the scissors are being held by the alleged pathologist. In real autopsies, the scissors are held in one's hand with the thumb and middle finger> The index finger is used to steady the scissors. << This is the most ludicrous statement that I have ever heard. There are standard techniques to old scissors that are thought for different procedures, but I have seen so many variations of them employed by instructors and surgeons over the years to make that broad statement impossible to prove anything one way or another. From my own experience, while performing surgery I would switch from one position to the other depending if I needed control or power. While doing anaesthesiology training I have even seen a renowned thoracic surgeon who held his scissors completely backward with the blades towards him in the palm of his hands. I'm still sitting in the fence on that one. >> nother problem with the autopsy procedure is that according to the clock on the wall, which the 'cameraman' makes a point to repeatedly show, the entire dissection of the alien took roughly two and a half hours. This is a remarkably short period of time considering the fact that we're supposedly dealing with an extraterrestrial here. << Who knows why they would do the autopsies as they did, if they wanted only gross specimens they would be no need for fine dissection of the body. This does not prove anything since we do not know their intentions. >> In a real autopsy, the body is always placed on a small block that arches the back and extends the chest upward. << That is assuming that the body follows the same norms as human anatomy does. >> For example, the creature exhibits a strong, stocky, muscular physique. Yet when the 'doctors' cut it open, its internal organs are just sitting in the body as if they are dumplings floating in a bowl of chicken soup ! << What do we know about Alien anatomy and physiology? >> Another problem occurs when the 'pathologist' cuts open the alien. The camera is perfectly in focus (whereas in every other portion of the autopsy where minute details might be seen the camera is conveniently out of focus) << The camera is fixed focused and was at the proper distance from the body for that sequence? >> the 'creature' bleeds easily. THis is highly unlikely. When living things that have blood in them die, gravity takes over and causes all fluids to sink to the lowest point in the body. << What do we know about Alien anatomy and physiology? SPECIAL EFFECTS >> After removal, the head snaps back, just like one would expect a latex or special effects dummy to do!" << What do we know about Alien anatomy and physiology? All in all I only see conjectures, and nothing new that would make me take a position other than sitting squarely on the fence. I do not see any proof of anything in there, only more questions to answer. Luc... -----------------------------end forwarded message
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Re: MSN UFO Webshow 'debunks' Left at East Gate From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 19:00:07 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:40:16 -0400 Subject: Re: MSN UFO Webshow 'debunks' Left at East Gate Regarding... >Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 02:03:46 -0500 >From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) >Subject: Re: MSN UFO Webshow 'debunks' Left at East Gate John wrote: >I will forward yours to him, if he wishes to respond I'll post it. Thanks, John, although I'm not sure what Peter can really add. There's no apparent reason to doubt his sincerity, or that of Larry Warren. It's not inconceivable that Larry believes in the images he saw under hypnosis, but his claims will not advance our understanding of what really happened at Rendlesham Forest. The stories about "aliens" can be traced back to "Steve Roberts" and he admitted making them up. It just goes downhill from there. If we ignore the claims which originate from either gentleman, the picture has become much clearer in recent years and it remains an intriguing case. When you have someone of Colonel Halt's standing, who is now retired and seems to be possibly open to supporting a fresh look at the evidence, it's not every day that happens. There's some notable comments from Halt in an article on the Microsoft Network "Project watchfire" forum. He states: "It would be more interesting I suppose if there had been some alien beings, but I never saw any," he says. "I never personally saw even a definite shaped craft. I wish I had. Maybe I'd have a little better feel for it. However, I certainly do believe the young airmen who were out there the first night - especially Sgt. Penniston, who actually touched the object. What we're trying to do now is set the facts straight. We need to keep them straight or we'll never get the answers". I'm not sure if those answers are locked in a filing cabinet in some Whitehall office, or a vault in the Pentagon, but someone knows what happened and it was of apparent significance. With a new Labour government committed to introducing a Freedom of Information Act in the UK, there's an outside chance the dust might be blown off some files over here. James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Crop Circle Connector Mailing List #20 From: Markk Fussell <mjfussell@marque.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:17:12 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:24:56 -0400 Subject: Crop Circle Connector Mailing List #20 Welcome to the Crop Circle Connector Mailing List #20 Members = 1400 What's New on the Crop Circle Connector. on Monday 12th & 19th May 1997 *************************************** 2nd Formation at Barbury Castle "Tree of Life" New updates and additional photographs to this rather meaningful formation. Also included are links to other sites on the Kabballah, for extra information. Additional update for the 19th of May on the "Tree of Life". *************************************** 2nd Formation in Essex Report on this formation in the same area as Littlebury Green, with new photograph. *************************************** Michigan Formation USA. Additional information, with Aerial photographs of this unusual occurance earlier in the year.(See Inter Crop- Circles 1997 page) *************************************** UFO leaves Crop Circles in Northern Croatia Read this fascinating report on this UFO related incident, which may have been responsible for a Crop Circle Marking. (See Inter Crop Circles 1997) *************************************** Crop Circles of 1996 Pacific Central Centre New lecture coming up, but hurry, it takes place on the 24th of May. ************************************** All the best Stuart. All the best Stuart and Mark. All the best Mark and Stuart -- .888. Mark fussell mailto:mjfussell@marque.demon.co.uk _db__8',`8__db_ The Crop Circle Connector Web Site at: qp 8.`.8 qp http://www.marque.demon.co.uk/connector/connector.html `888' Subscribe news:alt.paranormal.crop-circles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Re: Publisher Needs 'Help' From: Don Ledger <dledger@istar.ca> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:06:39 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:24:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Publisher Needs 'Help' > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: NEW BOOK NEEDS YOUR HELP > From: drjackryan@juno.com (John P Ryan) > Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 11:15:51 EDT > To all that post and read messages here, a friend of mine needs your > help. Delta Publishing is working on a new book about Extraterrestrials > and UFOs. They need your computer photos for their book, and they will > give you the credit. Even if the photo wasn't taken by you, still send > it, they need as many as they can get. If you would like to be a part of > this, e-mail your pictures and stories to Delta2121@aol.com. > If you have any questions for me feel free to e-mail me. > Dr. John P. Ryan > U.S. Naval Academy > Annapolis, Maryland > (DrJackRyan@juno.com) Well now it starts. Is this BS for real. If your going to Hunt in Red October and play your Patriot Games you had better be advised that you are in a Clear and Present Danger. Jack...your cover is blown. Don Ledger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 A Quick Look at 'Beyond Roswell' From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:41:10 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:08:41 -0400 Subject: A Quick Look at 'Beyond Roswell' BEYOND ROSWELL (a first look) by Steven Kaeser After months of anticipation the first book to try to resolve the inconsistencies between the alleged "Alien Autopsy" film and the now classic "Roswell UFO Crash" is about to hit bookshelves in the U.S. and Europe. However, those hoping to resolve the debate regarding the authenticity of either event will find that this book will do little more than inflame the arguments that are likely to rise as the 50th Anniversary approaches. Michael Hesemann and Philip Mantle have become known for their support o f the "Alien Autopsy" (AA) film and it might surprise some that the "film" is rarely mentioned in the book until Chapter 13. Indeed, this book is designed to lay out an historical framework that would allow the AA film to coexist with the theories outlined by researchers Kevin Randle, Donald Schmidt, Stanton Friedman and others. It should also be pointed out that those researchers have their own differences regarding what happened a half decade ago near that small southern New Mexico town. In the Foreword, Jesse A. Marcel, M.D., describes events that took place in his parent's small kitchen during the first week of July 1947. He recounts his father's excitement at the discovery of debris from a "flying saucer" and his own realization that we are not alone in the universe. It is apparent that Dr. Marcel's life has been changed as the result of an event that still remains shrouded in mystery, and he calls upon the Government to end the cover-up that he believes is still in place. It is this "cover-up" that could best be described as the central theme of BEYOND ROSWELL, with the AA film becoming only one facet of a complex story of confusion, apprehension, secrecy and fear. Chapter one begins at the dawn of UFOlogy, with the Kenneth Arnold sighting near Mount Rainier, Washington and describes the early efforts of the Army Air Force (AAF) in pursuing their investigation of reported unidentified objects in the sky. It quickly follows through to the infamous statement on July 8th by the military that a "flying disk" had been recovered, only to have that story deflated several hours later by General Roger Ramey who said the so called "disk" had been nothing more than a weather balloon. The story is very familiar to those in the genre, but the events as described serve to lay a foundation for the chapters to follow on the discovery and clean up of the debris field, as well as the alleged military cover up. Perhaps the most surprising factor in the early chapters of the book is the ease with which Hesemann and Mantle have woven the theories created by Friedman and Randle together. Both authors have developed their own scenarios with regard to what happened near Roswell, and their differences have at times resulted in a war or words between them. However, those same theories are used by Hesemann and Mantle to describe the scene around Roswell in July 1947 as they take the reader on a tour of nearly every facet of UFOlogy that relates in some way to the alleged crash of an alien craft in New Mexico. Those facets include the "Majestic Twelve", background information on the "Aviary", the "Blue Room" at Wright-Patterson AFB, "Dreamland" and a number of other lessor known events. If nothing else, BEYOND ROSWELL manages to be the first book to make an effort to tie it all together. Whether it succeeds in that effort will be based on the beliefs of the reader, but it weaves an interesting tale. From the initial confusion of the military, to the alleged recovery of an alien craft, and eventually to the alleged decision to withhold information until the Government could determine what they were dealing with, there are a great number of disconnected facts and events that appear to support many of the theories being proposed. For the first time, the hand drawn maps of where the crash site is located, as provided by the alleged "cameraman" through Ray Santilli, have been published. However, I was surprised to find that while Hesemann believes he has identified the site and describes it in his book, there is no picture to allow the reader a chance to see the site in question. After contacting Philip Mantle, I learned that the "uncorrected proof" that I had been sent did not include all of the photographs that the final release would contain. I have been to the site, just west of Socorro, NM and I found the area of rock that has been cut away at the base of a cliff to be quite interesting. The fact that the rock has been chiseled away does not prove that an alien craft crashed there, but there is also no record of why the rock had been removed. The question then arises as to whether there were any local witnesses to something unusual during the time of the crash, and it turns out that several local Native American children (who are now much older) remember an unusual incident that occurred in late May of 1947. As recorded in the diary of one of those children: On May 31, 1947 they were outside in the cool of the evening when the sky lit up like daylight and a ball of fire glided silently overhead from northwest to southeast with a brightness that forced them to cover their eyes. Doctors were later called to treat their hands and arms for what was described as burn blisters, but no cause was ever determined. I would note that the cliff face where the crash allegedly occurred is facing the northwest, which would fit their description, and the timing would fit with the "cameraman's" description of the events that later unfolded. Information from Robert Morning Sky is included, along with a chapter on "The Star Elder", which describes a Native American belief in, what would be described in more modern terms as, extraterrestrial visitation. For the Native Americans this apparently has become a part of their religion. It is also interesting to note that there are many Anasazi petroglyphs at Canyonland of Utah that show six-digit footprints. These markings date back to some 1,400 years BC and it appears that the Native American belief in beings from the stars goes back to long before Europeans crossed the Atlantic and changed the culture of Native Americans for all time. BEYOND ROSWELL is easy to read, and full of information that is familiar to those who follow this genre with any regularity. However, it is the first time that I have seen this mix of Roswell related information in one book and those unfamiliar with it will quickly find out what the excitement is all about. I'm sure that a number of researchers, on both sides of the argument, will pick it apart as a result of their own disagreements over the validity of the evidence presented. It is unlikely that non-believers will be swayed by the arguments presented, but it represents a first step in the authors' effort to fit the "Santilli" film into the Roswell event. Published by Marlowe and Company of New York, BEYOND ROSWELL will be released June 1, 1996 with the cloth edition priced at $24.95 (ISBN 1-56924-781-1). Pre-release orders are now being taken by Amazon Books at their WEB site (www.amazon.com), and I would highly recommend this book to anyone who has an interest in the Roswell event. ===***===
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 {74} part 2 - United Kingdom UFO Network From: United Kingdom UFO Network <ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:39:43 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:06:08 -0400 Subject: {74} part 2 - United Kingdom UFO Network ______ _______ ____ ------ / / // ____// |---------------------------------------------- U K / / // ___/ / / ' 19th May, 1997 / / // / / / / N E T W O R K Part 2 - Issue 74 --- (_____//__/ -- (_____/------------------------------------------------ This issue comes in 2 parts. If any part is missing please mail: ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk giving the issue number. The issue will be reposted to you. Please put the details as below in the subject section e.g. Repost {74} The United Kingdom UFO Network - a free electronic magazine with subscribers in over 40 countries. [W 2]****** Source: UFO Magazine Date: May / June 1997 MISSILEGATE The Fatal Flight of TWA 800 And now: Missilegate. A top-secret, and officially banned United States navy "chainsaw" missile accidentally destroyed a TWA jumbo jet and 230 people off Long Island last July, a report claimed on Thursday, 13 March 1997. The US government has covered up its involvement, from a mixture of embarrassment and determination to preserve the secrecy of the weapon, according to Pierre Salinger, journalist, former spokesman for President John F. Kennedy and leader of a freelance investigating team. TEAM OF TEN EXPERTS Mr Salinger told a press conference in Paris on 13 March 1997 that his group of ten experts, including several government officials, had reached these conclusions on the mysterious fate of flight TWA 800 with "very great certainty". But the FBI, which was given the Salinger report four days previously, dismissed its findings as a "cruel hoax". There was no clear evidence that a missile destroyed the plane, the FBI said, although this remained one of three possibilities. The other two were a terrorist bombing or a mechanical malfunction. Mr Salinger has been preoccupied by the unexplained destruction of the New York to Paris flight since he saw allegations of an accidental missile strike on the Internet. MISSILEGATE He called on the US Defense Secretary, William Cohen, to order an official investigation into the affair, which he dubbed "Missilegate". The report, co-ordinated by Mr Salinger through the Internet, says TWA 800 was "destroyed by accident... by a US navy missile which mistook its target". This missile - probably a top-secret kinetic-energy or chain-saw missile containing no explosive warhead - was fired either from a submarine or from a missile ship engaged in secret military exercises, the report said. Mr Salinger produced stills of a video recording of radar screens taken at JFK Airport that night which, he claimed, showed a "missile heading towards the TWA plane". The Pentagon insists that no missile has been fired in the area for two years [see our current issue of The Unopened Files] but Mr Salinger said 154 witnesses on Long Island saw one or two missiles in the air that night. He said he had also been contacted by a man with a son in the US Navy. The man said his son had told him: "Dad, we destroyed the plane." The video stills of the alleged radar traces of the missile appeared the day before the press conference in Paris-Match magazine and Mr. Salinger said the proceeds from the publication of the photograph would go the families of the TWA 800 victims. Families of French victims of the disaster decided over the previous weekend to begin a civil action against an unknown culprit in the French courts. This is likely to bring about a judicial investigation. A chain-saw or kinetic-energy or continuous rod missile is a fearsome weapon, officially banned by international treaty. It contains no warhead as such and, in flight, resembles a huge rod of metal. When it finds its target it blasts straight through and would tear an aircraft to pieces. Thanks to John Lichtield The Independent UFO Magazine, Subscription Dept, Wharfebank House, Wharfbank Business Centre, Ilkley Road, Otley, LS21 3JP, England. [W 3]****** Source: Nando Times Date: March 21, 1997 Mystery blip on TWA 800 Radar tape is unarmed Navy reconnaisance plane, says FBI NEW YORK (Mar 20, 1997 8:19 p.m. EST) -- A blip on a radar tape purported by friendly fire theorists to prove that a missile brought down TWA Flight 800 was actually a passing unarmed Navy reconnaissance plane, the FBI's lead investigator said Thursday. James Kallstrom, in his first explanation of the mystery blip, said it belonged to an unarmed Navy P-3 Orion that was flying at 20,000 feet with the knowledge of air traffic controllers but without a working transponder, an instrument that allows controllers to monitor and identify an aircraft. "When your transponder is not on, it shows on the radar screen as a solid line. And if you look at that, I guess if you're a school kid, you could say that looks like a missile or a cigar or a pencil," he told business executives at a luncheon at Kennedy International Airport. Kallstrom said the line makes it appear to the untrained eye as if the planes nearly intersected although they were more than 7,000 feet apart when the P-3 crossed in front of the Boeing 747 before the jetliner exploded off Long Island last July 17. All 230 people aboard the Paris-bound flight died in the crash. Again attacking Pierre Salinger and others trying to prove a Navy missile doomed the plane, Kallstrom called the theory "total nonsense" and an "absolute charade on the American public." A day earlier, the Federal Aviation Administration radar screen tape was shown in Washington during a closed session of the House of Representatives' Subcommittee on Aviation. John Duncan, the Tennessee Republican who is chairman of the panel, said that the presentation by the FBI, the National Transportation Safety Board and the Navy left the committee "unequivocally convinced that friendly fire did not cause this crash." At the luncheon, Kallstrom said the missile theory remains on the board in part because there were 200 reports from citizens saying they saw flares or tracks of light going up prior to the explosion. Kallstrom noted that he first raised the possibility of a missile at a news conference within hours of the disaster. Investigators continue to collect wreckage from the ocean floor and reassemble it at a Long Island hangar, where they hope to finally determine what caused the plane to crash. [W 4]****** Source: BBC Ceefax World Date: Monday fifth open-air 1997 "Mechanical failure" caused TWA crash The FBI have said that mechanical failure was the likely cause of last year's TWA plane explosion over Long Island, killing all 230 people aboard. Early theories after last July's accident blamed the explosion on a terrorist attack. But FBI director Lewis Freeh has now admitted that evidence is "fast moving in the other direction". The Boeing 747 exploded shortly after take off from JFK airport in New York. [W 5]****** Source: Nando Times Date: April 1, 1997 Family found dead at California Air Force Base VANDENBERG AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. - An airforce sergeant, his wife and their two children were found dead Monday by military police at the Vandenberg Air Force Base in California, a base spokesman said. No immediate explanation was given for the deaths. Base spokesman Michael Gentile said the bodies were found at about 8:45 a.m. PST/11:45 EST in military housing at the base. They were identified as Master Sgt. Joseph Macalusa, his wife Pamela and their two sons, who were originally from Chicago. Gentile said there were no suspects in the case, but declined to say if it was a murder-suicide. "We are unable to release that information at the moment pending further investigations," he said. The base, located about 55 miles north of Santa Barbara, in central California, is the home of the 30th Space Wing which launches the Titan IV rocket. Macalusa worked on the missile site, Gentile said. [W 6]****** Source: The Nando Times Date: 2 April 1997 22 year government probe found no evidence of UFOS WASHINGTON (Apr 1, 1997 4:43 p.m. EST) - The U.S. Air Force found no evidence of extra-terrestrials during a 22-year investigation into sightings of unidentified flying objects, the Pentagon said Tuesday. Code-named "Project Blue Book," an air force unit headquartered in Dayton, Ohio checked out 12,618 purported UFO sightings from 1947 to 1969 before abandoning the effort. "We cannot substantiate the existence of UFOs and we are not harboring remains of UFOs," Pentagon spokesman Kenneth Bacon said. Interest in UFOs has picked up in the wake of a mass suicide last week in California by members of a cult that believed they were to be transported to a spaceship trailing the comet Hale-Bopp. Bacon said the air force concluded that nothing it had checked out posed a threat to national security or involved technology beyond the current state of knowlege. Although the vast majority of the sightings were explained either by meteorological phenomena or aircraft in the area, 701 were classified as "unidentified sightings." But the air force investigators concluded there was no evidence "no evidence indicating that the sightings of these so-called UFOs were extra-terrrestial vehicles," Bacon said. [W 7]****** Source: BBC News (Teletext P108) Date: April 02, 1997 US Government denies hiding UFO wrecks The US Air Force has published the results of a 22-year-long study which says there is no evidence that alien spacecraft exist. Project Blue Book checked out 12,618 reported sightings of unidentified flying objects. A Pentagon spokesman also denied the government was hiding the remains of any alien craft. There was no national security threat, nor was there a cover-up, he added. [W 8]****** Source: Nando Times Date: April 2, 1997 Heaven's Gate cultists stashed weapons SAN DIEGO, California (Apr 2, 1997 01:55 a.m. EST) - Rifles and semi-automatic handguns belonging to the Heaven's Gate cult were found by investigators in a storage facility, a Sheriff's Department investigator said Tuesday. Jerry Lipscomb, the lead investigator of the mass suicide of 39 cult members last week, said his department was tipped off by a local storage company of two sheds that had been rented by the group. A search this morning turned up three assault rifles fitted with scopes, five handguns, including two semi-automatic weapons and boxes of files, literature on UFOs and space, computers and "hundreds of videotapes." All the material was taken to two crime labs where they will be evaluated to determine whether they indicate the investigation should expand beyond what has been established as suicide, Lipscomb said. "I don't know what the significance of this is. It is my opinion that it is insignificant as it relates to this investigation," Lipscomb said in a telephone interview. Investigators will be going through the registration records of the weapons to determine whether they were obtained illegally. On Thursday, the investigators said they found only one 9 mm handgun when they searched the luxury Rancho Santa Fe home where the 39 bodies were found identically-clad lying on beds, mattresses and couches. Twenty-one women and 18 men took high doses of phenobarbital or Vicodin -- a semi-opiate -- and washed it down with vodka. Some were killed by the potentially deadly mix, others were asphyxiated. The group said in videotapes they wanted to "shed their earthly containers" and ascend to a spaceship travelling behind the Hale-Bopp comet where they hoped to move on to a higher level of existence. [W 9]****** Source: Teletext News (ITV) P313 01:10 Date: April 03, 1997 Bookies shorten odds on alien life The odds on aliens being found in outer space were lengthened by bookies - who later admitted they may be cut amid revelations of possible life on Jupiter. Ladbrokes pushed out the odds on intelligent alien life being found within a year from 50 to 100/1, after publication of a US Air Force report. But a spokesman said they could be cut again in the light of the Galileo find. SIGNS OF LIFE ON JUPITER MOONS Signs of life may have been spotted by a space probe on two of Jupiter's moons, scientists have disclosed. The Galileo spacecraft is thought to have seen organic molecules containing carbon and nitrogen on the surface of Ganymede and Callisto. These two elements are vital components of living things. The evidence is from data gathered by a Galileo instrument. [W 10]****** Source: The London Times Date: April 3, 1997 Roadie for Grateful Dead dies to join cult >From Giles Whittell in Los Angeles A MAN found dead in his mobile home in northern California left a note saying he was going to join last week's mass suicide victims in a spaceship. He could be the first of many more "copycat" suicides, according to a former cult member. In an eerie replay of scenes from the Heaven's Gate mansion in Rancho Santa Fe, Robert Nichols, 58, was found lying on his back, his torso covered in a purple shroud. He had hung a model spacecraft made of silver foil from his ceiling and left a note saying he was going to join "the spaceship with the comet [Hale-Bopp] to be with those who have gone before me". Mr Nichols was a former "roadie" for the Grateful Dead, the hippie-style rock group. His sister said yesterday he had become depressed in recent years trying to make ends meet from a series of odd jobs. He had no links to the Heaven's Gate cult, according to authorities who insist the suicide of Marshall Applewhite and 38 followers was an isolated event. Even so, several former disciples of the charismatic, castrated cult leader say that dozens, and possibly hundreds, of those who once roamed the country had kept in contact and may be planning a secret gathering. Aaron Greenberg, a former Heaven's Gate member from Oregon, told The New York Times that he knew of 60 to 80 former members, adding: "But I feel there are hundreds; there are about 1,000 people who passed through this thing." At least two groups of surviving Heaven's Gate followers, including one from Canada and one from New York state, were converging this week on a secret site in southwestern America, Mr Greenberg said. "This is not a good thing," he continued, referring to an invitation recorded by Applewhite before his death: "Remember what they say in the videotapes: 'Come join us, the time is now, the window is small'." Last week's suicide victims apparently believed they were evacuating their human bodies or "containers" to be reincarnated as hairless, benevolent aliens in a spaceship travelling behind the Hale-Bopp comet. Investigators say the entire active membership of Heaven's Gate perished last week. But there is no shortage of other UFO cults in California. [W 11]****** Source: Nando Times Date: April 3, 1997 'Stupid Days' parade ridicules cultists SAN FRANCISCO (Apr 3, 1997 00:07 a.m. EST) -- Taking their brand of silliness to the next level, revelers in the annual St. Stupid's Day Parade ridiculed the Heaven's Gate cultists and their fascination with the Hale-Bopp comet. "That's pretty much the stupidest thing people have done in a long time," said Ron Davis, referring to the 39 people who died last week in Rancho Santa Fe, Calif., after eating poisoned pudding in order to be transported onto a spaceship they believed was trailing the comet. Davis, who carried a handmade Styrofoam version of the comet, was one of about 250 people who spent two hours Tuesday celebrating the sublime art of being stupid. Almost everyone at the parade agreed that recent comet and cult-related occurrences made for foolhardy fodder. Held for the 19th consecutive year, the April Fools' Day event is the one and only holy day recognized by the First Church of the Last Laugh here. Bishop Joey, a. k. a. Ed Holmes of the San Francisco Mime Troupe, founded the event as a tribute to "the DNA link that unites the entire species -- stupidity." It is named in honor of St. Stupid, renowned as patron saint of civilizations and parking meters. "Everybody tries so hard to not look stupid all the rest of the year, but they are," Bishop Joey said. "This is the day we let it all out." The festivities began at Justin Herman Plaza as participants raised their right hands, crossed their index and middle fingers and repeated the church credo after Bishop Joey: "I pledge allegiance to the illusion, and to the pyramid scheme for which it stands, one nation, one species, in denial, with error and excess by all." A rhythmic cacophony of drums began as the group made its way through the streets of the financial district, accompanied by bells, kazoos, cymbals and noisemakers. Nancy Frank, conservatively dressed in a maroon business suit and black hose, was named "Comet Lady" and asked to lead the way while clutching a bouquet of silver, star-shaped balloons. Because she is a futurist by profession, she said, she was perfect for the part -- even if she could only participate during lunch. Bishop Joey, wearing a referee uniform and a faded, red velvet Revolutionary War-style hat, banged his drum with a plastic femur as he led his foolish followers to the Seven Stations of Stupid. Puzzled onlookers beheld the spectacle -- and most smiled, but a few sighed and shook their heads. [W 12]****** Source: Sydney Morning Hearld Date: April 07, 1997 Stay in touch: The truth is in Gosford EDITED by DAVID DALE and BROOK TURNER MYSTERIES The National UFO Hotline (a private X-Files organisation) wants to know if anyone else saw what seemed to be some strange lights and a lot of military-type aircraft activity in the NSW central coast area of Umina late last Thursday night. But be warned: if you phone them to tell them about it, be brief, because you'll have to pay $3 a minute,so don't take too long. Ross Dowe, told Australian Associated press a 35-year-old Umina man called about 10.22 on Thursday night to report 12 "illuminated, triangular or stealth-type" aircraft flying overhead in formation. After he and his family watched them for a few minutes, they appeared to disappear into the sea. "Following this event a heavy-duty or military-type helicopter with two large spotlights combed the area and seemed to take an interest in the Umina Beach area (on the Gosford side of Pittwater)," Dowe said, noting that the Royal Australian Air Force had claimed they had not recorded any aircraft in the area. He said he wanted to hear from anyone with eyewitness accounts of this or associated events on 190 2243529. Sounds to us like a combination of Close Encounters of the Third Kind, The Abyss, and When A Stranger Calls. [W 13]****** Source: Associated Press (Burlington Free Press) Date: March 20, 1997 Humming noise the buzz in northeath Kingdom Town NEWARK[, VT] - The group of people who report hearing a mysterious humming sound in the Northeast Kingdom is growing. Newark artist Claire van Vliet, who complained of the noise two weeks ago in a story in the Caledonian-Record newspaper, said she has been contacted by people who have heard humming noises elsewhere in the Northeast Kingdom and in the United States. The humming noise has changed, van Vliet said. When the story hit the national news, the humming stopped for a few days and started up again with a slightly higher-pitched frequency. It is steadier, she said. Steven Weaver of Waterford said had been hearing the noise on and off since 1989. Thinking he was the only person who did, he eventually stopped mentioning it to other. "I'm just kind of relieved that someone else (in the Northeast Kingdom) has been hearing the hum," he said. Van Vliet and other hearers are convinced the sound is of military origin. U.S. Navy "ELF" (extremely low frequency) stations in the Michigan peninsula and Wisconsin were scrutinized as the possible source in a New Mexico study of another mysterious humming noise. In that case, the study concluded the ELF could not be the source. [W 14]****** Source: Nando Times Date: March 26, 1997 NASA plans rocketless space vehicles WASHINGTON (Mar 26, 1997 01:13 a.m. EST) -- NASA plans to develop four unmanned space vehicles that can fly at 10 times the speed of sound without using rocket engines. The five-year, $33.4 million Hyper-X project will demonstrate hypersonic propulsion technologies and produce four experimental vehicles, the space agency said Monday. The first flight would be in the mid- to late 1999 and conducted off the coast of Southern California. If successful, the flight would mark the first time a non-rocket engine has powered a vehicle at speeds greater than Mach 5 -- five times the speed of sound. A booster rocket would carry each vehicle to the test flight's speed and altitude. The spacecraft will then launch itself using an "air-breathing" propulsion unit. A rocket carries its own oxygen for combustion. An "air-breathing" vehicle such as the Hyper-X will burn oxygen that it has scooped from the atmosphere. Because of this, the spacecraft should be able to carry more payload and travel for longer ranges than rocket-powered systems. [W 15]****** Source: Nando Times Date: March 26, 1997 Rockets to collect data on Hale-Bopp comet WHITE SANDS MISSILE RANGE, N.M. (Mar 25, 1997 10:43 a.m. EST) -- The man who helped discover the Hale-Bopp comet watched as the first in a series of arrow-like rockets was launched to unlock the comet's secrets. The rocket launched Monday night carried a telescope that would try to detect whether the comet contains the gases neon and argon. "When we're studying the comets like this, we're getting some real clues about what conditions were like at the formation of the universe. It's like a time machine going back 4 1/2 billion years," Alan Hale said. The gases form only under certain conditions. If the gases are found, they could help determine when and where the comet originated, said James Green, a University of Colorado astronomer who is conducting the experiment. The rocket is the first of four being launched to collect data on the comet's composition, including gas emissions and dust particles. Each carries a different set of instruments. The rockets won't reach orbit. The highest will go 240 miles high and provide only five minutes of data before parachuting back. But telescopic equipment can provide a clearer picture than possible from Earth, bringing back information scientists may never get otherwise. University of Wisconsin astronomer Walt Harris said the rockets help fill gaps between observations made on the ground and those made in space by equipment like the Hubble telescope. Hale-Bopp is one of the largest comets ever cataloged, with a tail estimated at 10 million to 20 million miles in length. It is roughly three to four times bigger than Halley's comet. Green indicated it could take several months to analyze data from the experiment. He said the results could provide a small piece of the puzzle over the birth of the universe. "It is not going to happen in our lifetime that we are going to get the final answer," said Green. "But we are making progress." [W 16]****** From: David Watanabe <davew@aufora.org> Date: Monday 5th May 1997 GALLUP POLL RESULTS from NACOMM - http://www.nacomm.org/ In a little-reported poll taken in early September, 1996, the Gallup Organization asked 1,000 U.S. adults about their belief in UFOs and life in outer space. The questionnaire also asked about various paranormal subjects such as channeling, astrology, ghosts and angels. The last time Gallup ran a poll on UFOs was in June of 1990. The poll indicated that belief in the reality of UFOs remains about where it has been for the last two decades -- around 50%. According to Gallup, that number peaked in 1978 at 57%. Far more people today, 72%, seem convinced that there is some kind of life in the universe beyond earth, though only 38% think such life will look somewhat like ourselves. Also significant is the finding that 71% of those polled believe the U.S. government knows more about UFOs than it has disclosed. Here is a summary of all findings related to the subject of UFOs and extraterrestrial life. The results are based on telephone interviews conducted September 3 through 5, 1996 with 1,000 U.S. adults aged 18 and up. On this basis, Gallup states with 95% confidence that the margin of sampling error is + or - 3 percentage points. * Question: Have you heard or read about UFOs? Yes: 87% No: 13% Though high, this number has steadily declined over the last four Gallup polls on UFOs. In 1990, 90% said yes; in 1978, 93% said yes; and in 1973, 95% said yes. * Question: Have you, yourself, ever seen anything you thought was a UFO? Yes: 12% No: 87% No opinion: 1% This number has varied only slightly over the years. In 1990, 14% said yes; in 1973, 11% said yes. * Question: In your opinion, are UFOs something real, or just people's imaginations? Real: 48% Imagination: 31% No opinion: 21% In 1990, 47% said real; while in 1978, 57% said real. * Question: Do you think that UFOs have ever visited the earth in some form, or not? Yes: 45% No: 39% No opinion: 16% This question has not been asked on previous polls. It obviously implies, though it does not specifically state, that "UFO" is equivalent to "extraterrestrial spacecraft." The previous question about the reality of UFOs does not necessarily carry the same implication. The next two questions were each asked of only half the sample, 500 people per question. The margin of error for these questions is + or - 5%. * Question: Do you think there are people somewhat like ourselves living on other planets in the universe, or not? Yes: 38% No: 44% No opinion: 18% In 1990, 46% said yes; while in 1978, 51% said yes. * Question: Do you think there is life of some form on other planets in the universe or not? Yes: 72% No: 19% No opinion: 9% This question has not been asked on previous polls. The final question was asked of the entire sample of 1,000 people. * Question: In your opinion, does the U.S. government know more about UFOs than they are telling us? Yes: 71% No: 19% No opinion: 10% This question has not been asked on previous Gallup polls. The very high affirmative seems to indicate a strong constituency that could be mobilized in support of an end to official UFO secrecy. In contrast to the numbers of people who believe UFOs are real (48%), belief in ghosts and various paranormal or metaphysical phenomena were mostly lower. For example: * Do you believe in channeling? Believe: 12% Not sure: 21% Don't believe: 64% * Do you believe in astrology? Believe: 25% Not sure: 22% Don't believe: 52% * Do you believe in ghosts? Believe: 30% Not sure: 19% Don't believe: 50% However, belief in the devil is higher, at 56%, than belief in UFOs; and belief in angels is much higher: 72%. AUFORA News Update News & Information from the world of UFOlogy AUFORA Web: http://www.aufora.org/ Conferences =========== * PEER's First Clinical Conference to be held at the Omega Institute in Rhinebeck, NY EXTRAORDINARY EXPERIENCES: CLINICAL APPROACHES & COSMOLOGICAL CONSIDERATIONS A Hallmark Conference on Alien Abduction John E. Mack, M.D. and Roberta Colasanti, LICSW August 15 to 17, 1997 Call 800-944-1001 to register --------------------------------------------------------------------- UNITED KINGDOM UFO NETWORK Please forward all reports to: ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk Visit us on the World Wide Web at http://www.holodeck.demon.co.uk/ For information on receiving back issues and other files send mail with REQUEST INFO in the subject area to: ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk Meet us on the IRC (internet relay chat). Regular meetings held every Saturday night at 11pm (2300hrs) UK time. Connect to irc.mirage.co.uk and join us on channel #UFO Joining our IRC meetings is now even easier! If you are using the Netscape Navigator web browser just come along to the sites mentioned below: http://www.holodeck.demon.co.uk/ Many new sites will be listed in issue {75} We are still working on the java for Microsofts Internet Explorer. More news when we have it. For advice on connecting to our weekly meetings via the irc please send mail to: ufo-irc-advice@crowman.demon.co.uk SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION The UK.UFO.NW free fortnightly e-zine covering UFO reports and information from the UK and around the world is now available by subscribing to our new List Server. Send mail to: listserv@maelstrom.stjohns.edu In the main body of the mail put: subscribe ufo <first name> <last name> For example: subscribe ufo John Smith A confirm mail will then be sent to you which you need to reply to within 48 hours to be put on the e-zine mailing list. If you have problems you may also subscribe by sending mail to: ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk In the subject section of your mail type: SUBSCRIBE
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 {74} part 1 - United Kingdom UFO Network From: United Kingdom UFO Network <ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:39:05 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:04:31 -0400 Subject: {74} part 1 - United Kingdom UFO Network ______ _______ ____ ------ / / // ____// |---------------------------------------------- U K / / // ___/ / / ' 19th May, 1997 / / // / / / / N E T W O R K Part 1 - Issue 74 --- (_____//__/ -- (_____/------------------------------------------------ The United Kingdom UFO Network - a free electronic magazine with subscribers in over 40 countries. This issue comes in 2 parts. If any part is missing please mail: ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk giving the issue number. The issue will be reposted to you. Please put the details as below in the subject section e.g. Repost {74} In this issue: Editorial --------- Air Traffic Control United Kingdom News ------------------- [UK 1] Strange sighting over Birmingham Int Airport [UK 2] Meteorite spotted [UK 3] First UK crop circle of 1997? [UK 4] UFO over Derby Area [UK 5] Strange things at Shoeburyness World News ---------- [W 1] Exclusive...the true life X files story [W 2] MISSILEGATE - The Fatal Flight of TWA 800 [W 3] Mystery blip on TWA 800 Radar tape [W 4] "Mechanical failure" caused TWA crash [W 5] Family found dead at California Air Force Base [W 6] 22 year government probe found no evidence of UFOS [W 7] US Government denies hiding UFO wrecks [W 8] Heaven's Gate cultists stashed weapons [W 9] Bookies shorten odds on alien life [W 10] Roadie for Grateful Dead dies to join cult [W 11] 'Stupid Days' parade ridicules cultists [W 12] Stay in touch: The truth is in Gosford [W 13] Humming noise the buzz in northeath Kingdom Town [W 14] NASA plans rocketless space vehicles [W 15] Rockets to collect data on Hale-Bopp comet [W 16] Gallup pole results Conferences ----------- : New York Editorial ========= Readers are reminded that Bren McCartney an Air Traffic Control of 25+ years currently working from Heathrow in London has kindly allowed us the opportunity to put questions to him regarding Air Traffic Control procedures and anything else that might come to mind. Send you questions to: ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk In the subject section type: ATC QUESTION A question and answer article will be published in the coming weeks. In the next issue: ================= by Nick Pope A British defence official examines tales of alien abduction and draws startling conclusions. United Kingdom News =================== [UK 1]****** From: As reported to United Kingdom UFO Network Source: West Midlands Police Officer, Birmingham Int Airport. Date: Wednesday 14th May 1997 Time: 2341hrs Visability: Crystal clear sky Total observation time: Approximately 10 seconds. +++ See Next Report for Update +++ Two Police officers while on foot patrol on the long stay open air car park at Birmingham airport observed an object travelling from the Solihull area towards the airport in a SE to NW direction. The object was described as being at a height of approximately one mile. It was a very bright yellow/orange colour with an almost sparkling rear end, reminiscent of a firework sparkler. As it travelled across the sky the rear end of the object detached or broke away dropping vertically down before fading away. The remainder of the object carried on before it to disappeared. "It was not a meteor or shooting star" said one officer. "It was moving to slowly." Air Traffic Control at Birmingham airport were contacted immediately. They stated that they had no aircraft airborne and nothing had shown up on radar. They did however log the incident. One thought occurred to the officers that it may have been some space 'junk' re-entering the Earth's atmosphere. Both officers have many years service in the Police Force, one of them having worked at Birmingham airport for the previous eight years. They are both fully conversant with the normal things appearing in the sky over Birmingham at night. [UK 2]****** uk.ufo.nw would like to thank PC Bridges of the West Mercia Police motorway section for bringing this report to our attention. Source: Worcester Evening News newspaper Date: Friday 16th May 1997 Meteorite spotted A meteorite which was seen crashing through the earth's atmosphere in the skies above Worcester was also spotted by pub-goers on the other side of the city. Richard Taylor, of Dines Green, told told yesterday that he thought parts of the meteorite may be lying undetected after he saw it split and break up late on Wednesday night. Samantha Banks, 27, of Snowshill Close, Warndon, was walking home from the pub with two friends at the same time and also witnessed the starry sighting. She said: "It was a yellow colour and looked like a firework. It carried on for a few seconds heading north and then just disappeared." Mr Taylor said he saw parts of the meteorite split and head towards the ground, north of the city. [UK 3]****** From: 74146.2734@compuserve.com Date sent: 24 Apr 97 04:28:44 EDT First UK crop circle of 1997? One of the first crop circles of the 1997 season has been reported in England. It was made in pre-flowering rapeseed (canola) on or about April 20, 1997. The crop circle is 168 feet in diameter and is in the design of a counter-clockwise whirling turbine/pinwheel shape. The formation is located near Barbury Castle. Thanks to John Sayer, Peter Sorensen and many others for their going research into this important phenomenon. It's going to be an *awesome* season. Further info at http://alpha.mic.dundee.ac.uk/ft/crop_circles/1997/1997.html [UK 4]****** From: pagrosse@compuserve.com Date sent: Wednesday 7th May 1997 UFO over Derby Area Dave, I wonder if Charlie (A Shortland) (issue 73) saw something similar to what I saw in 1995? First of all, my background of looking up to the heavens is based upon a passing interest in astronomy and aviation. I live close to East Midlands Airport in England and when the wind blows in a particular direction, the aeroplanes fly overhead at about 5,000 feet. We are also situated, along with the rest of Derby and surrounding area, beneath one of the main flight-paths to America - I get the impression that it is the London to LA great-circle - so we get a lot of high altitude jets as well. My passing interest in astronomy encourages me to stand in the back garden, looking for meteors at night and it was exactly this that lead to my observation. People will recall that in the summer of 1995, Channel 4 had a week of UFO related programmes including the one with the Roswell autopsy film. My observation was the week before this. As on the two previous nights, I stood in the back garden looking up at the clear sky. It was about half past ten, it was still and there was a slight haze, but viewing was all right for where we are. I had just seen two meteors in as many minutes and was about to go back inside and go to bed when I saw a yellow coloured elongated hexagonal shape pass across my field of view. As it was silent, my first thought was that it was something in the upper atmosphere just starting to `warm up' on entry, but I noticed that the shape was lit uniformly, with no `hot corners' as you would expect. I then thought that it could be something flying just above the house - if it was, it was about the size of a pigeon, but it's flight was very linear, with no wobble or swaying as one would expect from a bird or similar sized object. It gave me the impression that it was powered because, throughout the duration of the observation, it's path and speed remained constant. Then, it's outline became diffuse as it disappeared into the haze, finally disappearing completely. The duration of the observation, from first sighting to disappearing into the haze was only about five to ten seconds. I immediately looked at my watch and made a note of where I was standing, fetched a piece of paper from inside the house and made a sketch of the whole scene and made notes on everything that I could think of at the time. Summarised below are the main details of the observation. Object: /\ Colour: About the same hue as sodium light. / \ Size: Angular size, about the same as the / \ reflector on next doors TV aerial | | (~8" x 3") at a distance of ~8m. | | | | <---- Direction of travel | | | | Speed: Angular speed, from 8 metres, it \ / covered the 6 metre width of the \ / garden in about 1.5 seconds. \/ * Date: 23/8/1995; * Time: 10:38pm (21:38 GMT); * Location of observation SK 3400 3185 - just south of the centre of Derby; * The object was solid, it was in no way nebulous; * It did not change it's shape at all; * It didn't leave a trail; * There were no clouds in the sky; * There was no sound or smell; * It was flying parallel to the house, a bearing of ~45 degrees; * The fact that it became diffuse when it traveled into the haze would suggest that it was at least 4,000 feet up; * Its path was not in the ecliptic plane; * Looking towards the South East, it traveled right to left. >From the trig, if it was a satellite, it would have to be several kilometers across. This does not stop it from being a satellite, but if it was, who built it? The Derby to Birmingham InterCity Line runs parallel to the object's path but there were no trains running at the time and the line was behind me. There were no satellites in view and there were no aeroplanes in view. If it was the size of a small light aircraft, it would have to have been flying at about 6,000 feet and traveling at 4,000mph. So, was it military? The shape of the illuminated part does not necessarily represent the extent of the true outline of the vehicle so it could be any shape - circular or even triangular. The following week, I watched the Roswell programme and the description by one of the observers of the crashed ship, that there were hexagonal panels beneath the ship. Coincidence? If anyone observed the same object as me at the same time, a size and speed could be determined, or if anyone else has seen anything similar, I would be most interested to find out more. On 27th December 1995, at 18:47 GMT, I observed something very similar, although slightly different in its appearance and behaviour. Could anyone with any information regarding these or similar sightings please e-mail me at pagrosse@compuserve.com Regards Paul. [UK 5] From: dave.stone@dial.pipex.com Date sent: Monday 5th May 1997 Strange things at Shoeburyness I have caught on to the realm of UFO's relatively recently, and apologise if this is the wrong medium in which to put this question. I have been told of a military site near Shoeburyness, Essex, that has allegedly held a crashed UFO for examination. The person who told me about this is a close friend of someone who worked on the project fairly recently, and my contact certainly believes it to be true. Does anyone else have any knowledge or has anyone else heard any tales of the area's involvement in this work, or indeed, the likelihood of the tale being genuine. Shoeburyness does have a long military involvement through being a firing range. I would be grateful for anyone's views in this matter. Regards, Dave Stone World News ========== [W 1]****** Source: The People newspaper Date: 23rd March 1997 Exclusive...the true life x files story that has shocked a nation This woman was abducted by aliens! This is the true UFO story that has shocked America. A woman claims aliens abducted her in the middle of New York. What makes the story believable is that the abduction was witnessed by two US Government secret agents and an international diplomat. Now, in Against her will, the attractive woman felt the three grey creatures with dead black eyes lift her from her bed. Terrified mum Linda Cortile screamed: "I wanna shut my eyes. I don't wanna see em'. They're taking me outta bed. I won't let them. Steve! Why don't you wake up? My children. What's happening to my children?" The no nonsense New Yorker took her astonishing tale to America's leading UFO expert Bud Hopkins on December 2nd, 1989, hoping he would be able to explain what had happened to her. He placed her under hypnosis and she began to re-live the moment three days She said she had been sleeping next to her husband Steve in the 12th floor flat in Manhattan when the grey creatures with abnormally large heads escorted her towards a bright blue white light outside her window. "I'm standing up on nothing. And they take me out all the way up, way above the building. Ooh, I hope I don't fall. The UFO opens, almost like a clam, and then I'm inside," said 41 year old Linda. "I see benches, similar to regular benches. And they're bringing me down a hallway. Doors open like sliding doors. Inside are all these lights and buttons and a big long table. "I don't want to get up on that table. They get me on the table anyway. They start saying things to me and I'm yelling. I can still yell. One of them says something that sounds like 'Nobbyegg'. I think they were trying to tell me to be quiet because he put The aliens then began to examine Linda's body thoroughly using a silver and maroon instrument with a rectangular tip. They concentrate hard on her nose. "They're spending a lot of time on the right side of my nostrils and I'm just saying to myself, 'I hope I skis and I hope they get it right in the face'. "The three of them just stand in front of me and stare at me. I feel I can drown in their eyes. They're blank. They're so big. I find them very frightening." Her memory goes blank and the next thing Linda remembers is waking up and scrambling through her apartment to check on her two young sons Johnny and Stephen while her husband Steve snores unaware of what's happened. Chillingly she had no idea how she got b Only when witnesses came forward with their own memories of that night would she discover the full extent of her involvement with the aliens. For Hopkins this was the start of years of investigation into the most amazing extra terrestrial case of his life - one that would lead him to a shocking conclusion about what the aliens planned for humanity. As other witnesses contacted him, Hopkins set up another taped hypnosis session with Linda to try to find out what had happened before she returned to her apartment. Linda returned to the night of the abduction and described the end of her examination on the UFO table. The aliens led her towards a door. "I'm not home. I thought I was going to go home," she said. "I don't know where I am but I'm on a beach. "One of them hands me a box and a bright white light goes on which illuminates the whole area. Now they're giving me a scoop. We have to dig. We have to find soil samples. "There's something wrong with the minerals. They aren't as pure as they should be and our sea life is dying. We've got to find what's polluting the minerals. "We're going to find why our sea creatures are dying. "There are three people sitting on the sand. It's so cold. And so we walk up to them. The three aliens and I look at them. "I feel this overwhelming sense of sadness and anger. Then I pick up a dead blue dish lying on the sand and it's their fault - the three people on the sand. "People like them kill our sea creatures. I looked at them and said, 'look what you've done. Look at this creature now'. "One of them asked a question. I think he wanted to know who I was. It wasn't a name something to do with sand." Hopkins ended the hypnosis session convinced that Linda's will had been overpowered and controlled by the aliens. He knew her as a smoking, meat eating woman who wore a real fur coat and was not unduly concerned about the environment. The hypnosis sessions made Linda curious about what the aliens wanted with her. She started to notices other things in the life that now seemed unusual. Years before she had noticed a bump on her nose. A doctor had checked it out and told her it was scar tissue from surgery. She asked Hopkins: "who operated on my nose and why don't I remember?" She decided to find out what had happened to her nose and had an X-ray. Linda was horrified the X-ray revealed a tiny cylinder buried in her nose and held in place by tiny metal spurs. She knew nothing about it. One week after the X-ray Linda had another late night alien visitor in her room. Delicately, words appeared in her head that he had come "to take this out". Linda felt a "slack" and woke up covered in blood from her nose. When she told Hopkins, he was amazed at how closely the aliens were monitoring her every move. But what followed showed him that the aliens interest did not stop with Linda. On May 25, 1992, three years after her abduction, Linda woke up gagging on a sharp tasting liquid in her throat. She switched on the light, looked in the mirror and saw blood pouring from her nose. Holding damp cloths to stem the blood, she heard a stirring from her son Stevens room and moment later he and a friend who was staying over also came out with nose bleeds. They were followed by her younger son Johnny, nine, and her husband who also had blood pouring from their right nostrils. Linda new what it meant - the aliens were back and this time they wanted her family. Now it looked as though her whole family had been given the alien nose implants. And Linda knew there was nothing she could do. Under hypnosis she recalled that when she was put on the operating table during the abduction she had screamed: "you have no right to do this to me," A blank eyed alien looked over her and in her mind formed the reply: "we do have the right." Adapted from the book Witnessed by Bud Hopkins, published by Bloomsbury on April 17 at 16 pounds 99 pence Secret agents saw a woman sail out of the window The two secret agents and the International diplomat they were guarding could not believe their eyes. In front of their official car was a giant UFO hovering over an apartment block in the heart of New York. It was 3am on November 30, 1989. When they contacted America's most famous UFO expert Bud Hopkins about their experiences they did not know they were collaborating one of the most amazing alien abduction cases of all time. Hopkins was certain that in a city as busy as New York someone must have seen the giant UFO hovering over Linda Cortile's apartment block. But even he could not have expected that the first witnesses to contact him would be two US secret agents. The diplomat was known only to Hopkins as the Third Man. The car was part of an official motorcade driving to the Wall Street heliport after a late night meeting. As the motorcade neared Brooklyn Bridge their car engines died and in silence those present witnessed the close encounter with a UFO. The first agent to contact Hopkins would only give his first name, Richard, and said he had been sitting in the passenger seat when he noticed a fiery red glow reflected in the silver gum wrapper he held. Richard looked up to see what was causing it. "There was an oval shaped object hovering over the top of the apartment building two or three blocks up from where we sat," he recalled. "We didn't know where it came from. It happened too fast. "It's light turned from a bright reddish orange to a whitewash blue coming out of the bottom. Green lights rotated round the edge of the saucer. "A little girl or woman wearing a white gown sailed out of the window in a foetal position and then stood in mid-air in this beam of light. "I could see three of the ugliest creatures I ever saw. I don't know what they were. They weren't human. Their heads were out of proportion, very large heads with no hair. "Those buggers were escorting her into the craft. My partner screamed, 'we have got to get them'. We tried to get out of the car but couldn't. After the woman was escorted in, the oval turned reddish orange again and whisked off." Hopkins told them that Linda Cortile was the woman they had seen. Concrete evidence that they had not been dreaming was almost too much for the hard headed agents to bear. It meant they really had seen a UFO. They became suspicious of Linda and began to tail her. The second agent, Dan, contacted Hopkins. He said both men were so disturbed by the incident that he slept with a sledgehammer and Richard put a shop window dummy in his bed and slept in another room. Richard told Hopkins they were overcome with an unexpla Finally they cracked. On April 29, 1991 they kidnapped Linda, bundled her into their car in broad daylight and quizzed her for three hours. Dan became increasingly upset with Linda as she repeated she had no idea why it had happened. "Don't hand me that shit! You are one of them, aren't you," be screamed from the front of the car. "Richard, pull her shoes off. I want to see her feet." The agents counted her 10 toes before taking her home. They had no idea why they needed to see her feet but the reason became clear as they had flashbacks of the night of the abduction. Hopkins later discovered that following the agents car and listening in on the two way radios was the third man. He too would eventually write to Hopkins and confirm what he had seen. His present that night indicated to Hopkins that Linda's abduction may not have been a coincidence. What came next proved him right. Dan wrote to Hopkins and told him that he, Richard and the third man had begun having the same flashbacks. "After seeing the abduction we found ourselves sitting on the seashore somewhere. "We didn't know how we arrived there," wrote Dan almost two years after the incident. "Linda was on the beach bending down with one of those creatures. They were digging in the sand. They put their findings in metallic boxes with white lights, which reflected tiny silver particles that seemed to be stuck on Linda's hands and feet." As they looked they realised Linda was the only figure on the beach with toes. "They walked up to us as we sat there. The girl held up what appeared to be a lifeless fish and said in a bold voice, 'look what you have done'. "Our first impulse was to run. Instead I asked her who she was. She didn't answer. "One of the beings replied, 'Lady of the Sands'." Hopkins was stunned by the letter, which corroborated everything Linda had revealed under hypnosis. It was later backed up by letters from Richard and the third man. Was it possible Linda had been temporarily taken over by the UFO occupants and used as a symbol of alien ecological concern? What was definitely not in doubt was the power of alien technology, which so easily kidnapped a leading world figure and dumped him on a beach for an ecology lesson from a Manhattan housewife. The pressure of the revelations proved too much for Dan who became obsessed with Linda. By October 1991 Dan had convinced himself Linda could not be trusted because she was half human and half alien. The strain pushed him over the edge and he kidnapped Linda for the second time on October 15, 1991. He drove The to a US government safe house on the coast. There he gave Linda a white nightgown like the one she had been wearing when she was abducted. Dan began to take pictures of her in the nightgown as a permanent reminder of what she had looked like the night the aliens abducted her. Linda ran off but Dan continued to take pictures of her running down the beach. Then he caught up with her and dragged her into the sea. He was holding her head under water when Richard arrived and pulled them both back to dry land. The third man could not afford news of the alien abduction to become known, he would be a public laughing stock. But Dans breakdown was putting his career, and those of both agents, at risk. Richard quietly had Dan committed. Hopkins investigation uncovered a much bigger and sinister alien involvement in Linda and agent Richards lives. The night the world stood still on Brooklyn Bridge... The secret agents and the third man were not the only people to have witnessed the alien abduction of Linda Cortile. Many other people saw the incredible seen as the New York housewife was beamed up to a spaceship hovering above her apartment. UFO investigator Bud Hopkins has tracked down eye witnesses and recorded their testimony. As he taped what the witnesses said, often in front of independent observers, each invariably told the same story. Ageing book keeper Cathy Turner said that at 3 am on November 30, 1989 she saw an object like "a big Christmas ball glowy and shiny" in the night sky. She had been driving on Brooklyn Bridge when the power died in the car, just as it had before the official motorcade. Janet Kimballs car also died that night. "The whole sky lit up. Words can't express what I saw that morning on the Brooklyn Bridge," she said. "You may think I'm crazy. If I am, so were all the other people sitting in their cars up there on the bridge with me that morning. I was shocked to see what it really was. The lights were so bright I had to shield my eyes. "I was frightened and found this aircraft very threatening. "I could hear the screens of the people parked in their cars behind me. Their screams were from horror. They sounded like I felt. "These balls came out of a window, one after another. I saw the balls unroll at the same time. "It wasn't until then I realised they were four children standing up in mid-air." Once the people had disappeared into the craft it zoomed off and her car started automatically. Other witnesses came forward to confirm the time and date of the siting before two of Linda Cortile's neighbours revealed they had close encounters. One, Julia, said she had seen "a pale figure with cheek bones like Abraham Lincoln standing in the doorway to her bedroom". The other, Francesca said she had woken up with a dazzling light outside her bedroom window on November 30, 1989. She said: "something in me was just saying, 'you don't want to know what's out there' and I don't get spooked easily." Finally the third man wrote in a letter on United Nations paper: "I am thankful to have lived to see the most astounding event of my life. "My good fellow, the 30 November 1989 episode was substantially real." But the proof that came next was even more astounding. Abducted by aliens! The final part of this incredible true life story I looked behind the curtain... They were back! A mother was abducted from her bed by aliens and beamed up into a UFO in the middle of New York. But that was only the start of the nightmare. Today Matthew Benn's unmasks the identity of the third man, a famous diplomat who witnessed the event, and pieces Linda Cortile was gently nodding off to sleep when she remembered that she had forgotten to check behind the bedroom curtains. Gingerly she put her hand behind them as she did every night...then she froze with fear. "Oh no!" She cried. They were back. "There was something there. I saw something that was dark, a dark khaki colour, illuminated just a little bit, but that was enough to see." Then it came out of the shadow towards her. It was just three years after Linda was abducted from her apartment in the middle of Manhattan and beamed up to a space ship over head, an incredible night time scene watched by motorists in stalled cars on Brooklyn Bridge. What made it more incredible was that among the eye witnesses were a world famous political figure, an international diplomat known as the third man, and two US government secret agents who were guarding him at the time. Linda had relived the experience with UFO investigator Bud Hopkins under hypnotic regression. Now, again in a trance, she was relieving the moment when an alien came back for her. "It came out from behind the curtains and it started to walk towards me. I've seen him before and I don't like this one. I don't like him. Well, none of them are really f With the anti-rape stun gun in her hand, she warned the black eyed alien with a giant head: "you better get away from me because I'm gonna zap you." She recalled: "I kept pushing the button and the gun just wouldn't work. So I just threw it on the floor and the alien came over and he hit me with an electric rod." Linda, 41, was once more beamed up from the apartment to a space ship exactly as she had been on November 30, 1989. "I'm in a room and it dingy, there isn't enough light. There's someone next to me on my right. She has long, dark hair. Very pale. She has beautiful eyes. Big eyes. Very quiet." Under hypnosis, Linda remembers a sad, distinguished man in striped pyjamas stands nearby like a zombie looking down at a table. She recognises the old man. "You know who this is?" She tells herself. "Poppy. It's Poppy." And she felt as though he was her father. She follows Poppie's eyes and suddenly realises that her nine year old son Johnny is on the operating table. She screams, but the alien woman cuts her off. "She tells me it is my fault, if Johnny is over weight, and that he isn't ready yet for whatever purpose because he's still young. "And I keep telling her to get him off the table because he doesn't belong here and she won't listen. "She told me that they were going to...and I said, 'no your not!' She said, 'yes, we are'. And I said, 'Noooooo! He's mine'. She wanted to keep him." Then Johnny came round and the old man, Poppy, told him: "don't cry, Johnny, don't cry. I'll give you something nice." Months later a man in a diplomatic car stopped Johnny as he ran errands for his father in New York and called him over. Johnny told Hopkins that the man pointed to an antique divers helmet and asked him if he wanted it. When Johnny told him he could not take gifts from strangers the man replied: "oh, I'm not a stranger. I'm your Poppy." Johnny took the diving helmet and later picked out the elderly man's picture from international news clippings, it was the third man who had witnessed Linda's abduction that night of November 30, 1989. Dreams of a girl had tormented the agent Eventually, Hopkins confronted the third man with Linda and Johnny's testimony that he was on the UFO with them and had seen Linda taken in 1989. He made no attempt to deny that he was the third man and Johnny's Poppy. For Hopkins this opened a new and even more chilling line of inquiry, the aliens were abducting people repeatedly and bringing them together to form relationships in closely monitored sterile rooms. His fears were confirmed when one of the US government secret agents, who would only give his first name, Richard, told him how he had been tormented throughout his life with dreams of a girl. "My first dream occurred when I was 10 years old. I didn't know where I was but it was a very bright white environment. "Two tall, fair, emotionless adults walked towards me, holding the hand of a tiny little girl. "she wore her hair in short, told it tails and had a base ball carrier placed the wrong way on her head. "We began to talk and I learned she was seven years old. We told each other our names, but for some strange reason, we couldn't remember from minute to minute. So I named her baby Ann and she named me Mickey." The children played in the empty white room until the emotionless strangers led her away. But they would meet up again in Richards dreams. "The older I became the more I dreamed of baby Ann. it was taking its toll on my 'real' social life. "It didn't matter who I dated, they just couldn't match up to baby Ann." As they became older the pair fell in love and finally bonded sexually. "We were going to spend the rest of our lives together until those miserable creepy bastards came along and attempted to take baby Ann away from me," said Richard. "I tried to stop them but they were much stronger than I was. She cried so much that she lost her breath and struggled all the way. I chased them but they were gone. "Twenty years later, on November 30, 1989, I saw a UFO. The object hovered over an apartment building about two blocks away. "A beam of whitewash blue light flashed on from underneath it. Soon I saw the figures of three strange creatures and a figure of a little girl surrounded by light just after they came out of a window below. 'There she was like a Christmas tree tell' "I wasn't sure of what I was saying. It was so very bizarre. So I went to the glove compartment to get a pair of binoculars. "There I saw my baby Ann hanging in the light like a Christmas tree bell." Investigator Hopkins was astounded. This meant abductee Linda had been repeatedly taken into a space ship as a child and new Richard long before they met and talked about the 1989 abduction. What was more, Richards was now convinced that Linda's son Johnny was his child and had been conceived during their last sex session on the UFO. Hopkins carefully taped Linda as he asked about her childhood dreams. Chillingly she recalled her "imaginary" friend called Mickey. Under hypnosis she recalled a day at the swimming pool when two strange men in powder blue suits appeared and said: "it's time to go." "You know what was really strange?" she recalled. "There were people in the swimming pool already. "It was like a photograph. In the pool their were splashes that didn't finish, they were still up in the air. "Nobody was moving and the water, the splashes weren't moving either. "And we walked right by everybody frozen like that and nobody even looked at us, like they didn't even see us," said Linda, who remembered meeting Mickey in the same bright, stark room. Hopkins now knew he had to tell Linda that Richard was her friend Mickey and brought in two independent observers to witness and videotape her reaction. As he read Richards story of Mickey and baby Ann, Linda's eyes filled with tears and she sobbed: "that too weird. That even too weird for me. How does he know?" Hopkins was forced to tell her what it meant. "It was real, I'm afraid Linda. This happened." Hopkins put Johnny under hypnosis to find out what he remembered. He to recalled a blazing white room and an imaginary friend their called Melody. And then be recalled his mother and a tall man in blue pyjamas hugging him and saying goodbye. They're doing it to millions of people.' Hopkins said: "I was stunned by what I had just heard. A second generation of the Mickey and baby Ann relationship including the setting, the two blond men, the UFO hangar and the intense light." Richard was even more badly affected. "I dreamed of Linda and John in that white environment. We clung to each other as a threesome. "There was a lot of love there. We were a family. I took John by the hand, bent down on one knee and hugged his sad little face against mine, as his mother Linda watched tearfully. "I wasn't dreaming. I believe our being together as a family up there was the first and last time. We said goodbye and it was sad. "I've begged God in heaven. Please not our little John. Will this little boy endure the agonising effects I have felt my whole life through." Linda, recalling how she saw her son spread out on the operating table, sobbed: "why doesn't anybody believe us? "Do you know how many children and parents are being taken and all we do is go through ridicule and nobody believes us? "That's my Johnny on the table. I don't know what they've been doing to him and they're not just doing it to him. "They're doing it to millions of people that are going through this." For UFO investigator Bud Hopkins the systematic abduction of generations of the same family confirmed his worst fears. "The aliens central purpose is not to teach us about taking better care of the environment. "All of the evidence points to their being here to carry out a complex breeding experiment in which they seem to be working to create a hybrid species - a mix of human and alien." * Adapted from the book Witnessed, The True Story Of The Brooklyn Bridge Abduction, by Bud Hopkins, published by Bloomsbury on April 17, 1997 at 16 pounds 99 pence. * Third Man is former UN chief Today The People names the world famous diplomat snatched by aliens and known as the Third Man. Leading UFO investigators claimed he is former United Nations Secretary General Javier Perez de Cuellar. Until today Perez de Cuellar has never been named as the mysterious diplomat who saw Linda Cortile's scores abduction. Even UFO investigator Bud Hopkins kept his name from his book. But UFO-logists claim he is the man, known also as Poppy, who Linda's son identified from a series of press pictures as well the person who comforted him on the UFO - and later gave him a gift of a diving helmet. Perez de Cuellar was in New York on November 30, 1989. The United Nations is based there and Hopkins received his first letter from the third man on United Nations notepaper. Hopkins has described how he finally confronted the third man with evidence and letters from Linda and her family. The author said the third man read Linda and Johnny's testimony that he had seen Linda snatched and had comforted Johnny on the UFO. At no stage did he try to deny it. Burton Hopkins refused to name Perez de Cuellar in his book because he did not want to pressurise him into coming forward. He believes that a willing confession from an internationally respected figure will add credibility to the testimony of other abducte Hopkins said: "I feel a great deal of pity for him. It seems to me that until he decides to go public with what he remembers from the night of November 30, 1989, he cannot have much inner peace." It's part of a cosmic masterplan Aliens are acting as cosmic match makers - abducting people as children and watching them become friends and lovers in space. UFO investigator Bud Hopkins believes the repeated and systematic kidnapping of generations of the same family is part of an alien master plan. In 1993 Hopkins interviewed a New Hampshire couple called Jack and Sally who met and felt a sense of instant recognition. After they moved in together Jack asked her about a birthmark. Sally replied: "we've had this conversation before." Days later, Sally had another flashback. "Jack, we were in a strange room together once, with boxes all around the floor." Jack stiffened. "I know what you are talking about. Lets forget about it." But the couple could not forget and under hypnosis they recalled even what the other had looked like as a child and their nicknames for each other - Pizza Face and Froot Loop. Jennifer and William met at a conference in 1992 and began having flashbacks of their sexual antics on board a UFO. The problem was that they were both happily married with children of their own. Even two women, Beth and Anna, who bumped into each other found they had shared a series of abductions together and became close friends. Hopkins said these abductees have "been tampered with, altered, shaped by some kind of alien experimentation and interest in human genetics, sexuality and reproduction". He said: "their human emotions have been tainted leaving each of them, at best, confused and, at worst, devastated." -[continued in part 2]- Search for other documents from or mentioning: ufo | 74146.2734 |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 19 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: Don Allen <dona@totcon.com> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:25:10 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:55:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context At 07:20 PM 5/19/97 -0400, Kevin Randle posted: >From: KRandle993@aol.com >Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:17:42 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context >I've been waiting to see Kal Korff's book to see if he took my statement >about relying only on the public record out of context. What a surprise. He >did. My opinion is, he did such sloppy "research" on the Meier case that I don't feel like wasting $27 on yet-another copy-cat rehash of the bobbsey twins, Todd and Pflock. For that matter, I got the MOGUL report free from Sheila Widnall of the USAF and it cost nothing. <g> That report, incidentally, proved nothing to me except the USAF knows how to cover it's rear. >The rest of the statement made it clear that I was suggesting that a number >of the witnesses had since died. I had the opportunity to speak with them and >I know what they told me. That put me one up on everyone. Edwin Easley did >tell me that the craft was extraterrestrial. I have the notes of that >conversation, which would be sufficient in most arenas to prove the >conversation took place. But, since he said the craft was extraterrestrial, >that can't be the truth. There must be another explanation. Korff has one, >but I know it's wrong. The usual debunker's MO is to discredit all the witnesses, one by one by whatever means possible, to marginalize your efforts, twist your words out of context, to cast doubt on the veracity of the witnesses account. What price truth..or rather..why pay attention to accuracy of facts when the object is to make a quick buck off selling books? >He makes much of Stan Friedman's ridiculous assault of claiming I had made 38 >false claims, ignoring the fact that originally it was 38 false claims of >Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt. In the latest version I have inherited them >all. Incredibly, I didn't even make some of the claims, but who cares. Let >the tar fly. > >I've seen enough of Korff's book to know that similar misrepresentations and >half-truths are used throughout. Don't you find it curious that Korff has evaded responding in detail to David Rudiak's lengthy questions to him regarding Marcel? In loud response to Ed Komarek, Kal vehemently denies he's a debunker, but when the ONLY kind of books and UFO cases he's been ACTIVE in have been a debunking kind, methinks he doth protest a bit too much in the back and forth to Komarek. Kal speaks about _other_ cases, but he doesn't specify _what_ other cases he finds interesting to pursue. >Korff made a big deal that Prometheus has published other books and that as a >publisher, they are in business to make money. However, has Prometheus EVER >published a book suggesting that UFOs might be real? They publish debunking >books about these topics. A quick visit to http://www.prometheusbooks.com/satp.htm shows that Prometheus publishes strictly debunking books on the Paranormal. If you're an atheist, transvestite or debunker, Prometheus has a book for you. Don
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 20 Pages on Area 51 Web Site From: Jan Aldrich <jan@CYBERZONE.NET> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:03:35 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:18:07 -0400 Subject: Pages on Area 51 Web Site Greetings, Perhaps these pages will be of interest to those who have not seen the articles contained there: Foo-Fighters/Ghost Rockets http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/topic/foo UFO Events of 1947 http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/topic/1947 Phantom Airships http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/topic/airship Project Bluebook and Government Investigations http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/topic/bluebook Best regards, Jan Aldrich
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 20 AUFORA Pictures Updated From: David Watanabe <davew@aufora.org> Date: Mon, 19 May 97 22:05:12 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:57:17 -0400 Subject: AUFORA Pictures Updated Greetings, AUFORA has made notable changes to its Pictures area on its website: http://www.aufora.org/pics/ * New area devoted to Mars and Mars Face related pictures: http://www.aufora.org/pics/mars.html * Significantly updated pictures on Aliens, Area 51, Crop Circles, and Roswell areas. * Minor additions to other areas. Thanks! Dave Watanabe http://www.aufora.org/ btw...expect major additions to our Movies area soon! - http://www.aufora.org/movies/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 20 NYC UFO video is up! From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 04:07:36 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:58:29 -0400 Subject: NYC UFO video is up! Hiya Errol, hi All, Soup's on kids! Tom King and Jason DeGraf have done a terrific job posting the video that I submitted. I want to thank them both for all the work and the time that I know went into the job. You guys are the best! I also want to thank Errol again, for helping me to dissemenate this material (hopefully into the hands of those who are able to study and analyze it properly.) Single frame captures, an AVI of the footage, the original report and all sorts of other goodies I won't mention now are available at: http://personal.netwrx.net/xalium/chapterhouse/velez/velezufo.htm For those of you who are unfamiliar with the Ovni Chapterhouse, you must surf around the site while you're there. There's treasure to be had on every page. If it's been videoed, you can bet the milk money that these guys have made it available, and free of charge to all. Gentlemen, I tip my hat on a job well done! I welcome the responses of all interested parties that have taken the time to conduct some kind of analysis prior to posting. I'm not up for 'defending' anything to anyone and will not respond to that type of post. I know what I saw. For all the lurkers and watchers out there,...enjoy! <G> John Velez PS- If anyone knows of a way for us to get digital video equipment so that we can document these sightings properly, pleeeez let me know. (No bank robbery suggestions please, I have already contemplated and dismissed it as a viable alternative. I've heard about what happens to guys that wear fuzzy slippers in jail! <G>) I'm hoping that there is a group or institution or a 'Daddy Warbucks'like Bigelow that would be interested in sponsoring such a project. If anyone knows if there is a source or how we can get such a grant, I'm all ears. There's gotta be somebody out there who's interested in what we're getting on videotape. We're getting the photo ops, we should be able to record it with the best stuff available. It's a crying shame that we can't. Unfortunately we're all just working sods and the type of equipment that we need is just way over our collective heads. HELLLP! JV * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 20 South African UFO crashes From: Jakes Louw <louwje@telkom.co.za> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:45:59 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:59:48 -0400 Subject: South African UFO crashes Greetings esteemed list members............... I'm trying to get as much research material together as possible relating to two incidents in the Southern Africa region, namely: 1) The apparent crash and retrieval of a UFO in Botswana in May 1989, after allegedly being knocked down by some obscure weapon mounted on a Mirage jet fighter. 2) The apparent crash and retrieval of a UFO in Lesotho in September 1995. I know that people like Graham Birdsall, Anthony Dodd, and Joachim Koch have done a lot of research on these two incidents, so if they or anybody else would like to send me something, I'd be grateful. I've retrieved some material from the following sites: http://www.ufobbs.com http://www.ufomind.com http://www.nacomm.org If there any other sites with material, please let me know. Thanks, Jakes E. Louw Murphy's Law:"If something can go wrong, it will".
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 20 Alfred's Odd Ode #137 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 05:53:14 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:00:59 -0400 Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #137 Apology to MW #137 (For May 20, 1997) A buddy of mine is trying to quit The lying embrace of tobacco. He=92s fit to be tied, madder than spit, And pounding too many tacos. He=92s slapping his pockets for matches or light. He=92s avoiding old friends like the plague. He=92s quicker to upset, more willing to fight; All comments are seen as red flags. I quit long ago, the smoking, I mean. I still have my own "Nick" addiction. I=92ll live without lips in the worst of my dreams, Cursed with their lying affliction! Cursed by the man in the house on the hill. Cursed by unsavvy investors. Cursed by big business, bloated and shrill. Cursed even by their adjudicators! =20 What=92s this to do with UFO=92s? Why talk about this here? Well, what would you think of a life form you know, That fed from it=92s festering rear! And that=92s the way our watchers find us. The stronger preying on the weaker. We=92re vapid, short sighted, gravid with pus. At the whim of some mad sullen wreak er. We=92ve given the doctors another weapon against us. They who prescribed nicotine at a premium! And what of the downers they sell at cost plus? . . .These doctors awash in the media=92s encomium! The watchers were watching in baffled befuddlement When John Swinton took the podium, a little tanked? He told the black truth in a flash of astonishment! For this he=92s admired, and by some (past!) unthanked. This is the media paid by tobacco Who made billions running ad=92s!=20 They made billions more, then, incognito. . . . . .They _didn=92t_ report it as deadly, or bad. We=92re caught in the throes of a kingpin=92s addiction. You could call it a legal drug cartel. For decades we=92ve suffered their cancerous attrition. I=92m pushing my button to send them to HELL! Lehmberg@snowhill.com They do seem to be enjoying the trip! Christ, but how can someone profit from all that misery? Where=92s _your_ money, little brothers and sisters? Are you an investor in the misery? In a choice between lawyers, and mosquitoes . . .push a button, and they all go away? I would have to save the mosquitoes to know I was doing the right thing. "Wait, you idiot, they=92re human beings"! No, they are not. ~push~=20 Oh gee, I cleaned out congress, too. . . well, let=92s do it right this time. Doctors? Police Officers? Any semi closed Institution that has a hit television series done about it =96 beware <g>! --=20 "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake. What buttons would _he_ have pushed. =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1= =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1= =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1 Government or Social Harassment REPORT - Presently, "ZERO" HARASSMENT
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 20 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: KRandle993@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:49:20 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:12:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context Well, I've looked at more of Korff's book and I have to tell you. I gotta laugh. He apparently did no independent research but sat in the library picking up everything negative ever said and reporting it as if it was the truth. Example? I have said that our files, notes, and audio tapes are available for review at the CUFOS. Korff reports this isn't true, but Korff never even called CUFOS to learn the truth. Instead he repeats what Robert Todd has said about it. Todd wanted CUFOS to COPY EVERYTHING and send it to him. I told them not too, even if they wanted, but if Todd wanted to go to Chicago, I had no objection to him examining all the material. The only request I made was that he would print NONE of it without permission. I mean, I had found too much of my research in Stan Friedman's book with neither credit nor attribution and I didn't want a repeat of that. Oh, you need another example. Okay, he disbelieves Frankie Rowe because the Roswell Fire Department only had two engines in 1947 and they didn't make runs outside the city limits. This is apparently a policy established in the 1950s and comes from Max Littell. However, according to the Fire Department records, on June 21, 1947, Pumper No. 4 travelled 31 miles on a run "outside city limit." (What's this? Randle checked the record?) Now all this proves is that in 1947, the Roswell Fire Deparment did make runs outside the city. In fact, fire fighters told me that there is still no one north and west of town to make such runs so they still do it. This does not prove that Frankie Rowe is telling the truth, only that it can't be stated that she is misinformed because, in 1947, the Roswell Fire Department did make runs outside of the city. You want another example? Okay. One more. Korff notes that Marcel, according to the interview he gave to Bob Pratt said he had a Bachelor's degree. BUT, in the original transcript, the bachelors is in parens suggesting that it was a comment by PRATT and not MARCEL. Korff apparently used, not the original transcript, but the transcript as published by Karl Pflock in which Pflock made alterations in an attempt (I think honest attempt) to make it clearer. By doing so, he actually changed the meaning. Yeah, this is subtle, but gees, the guy (Korff) should be more careful before he starts hurling allegations. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 20 Phoenix City 'Probe' of UFOs is Grounded From: bhamilto@pcshs.com Date: Tue, 20 May 97 09:37:15 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:32:03 -0400 Subject: Phoenix City 'Probe' of UFOs is Grounded CITY PROBE OF UFOs IS GROUNDED Well, all you wonderful humans of earth, we will have to wait a little longer before the Phoenix Spaceport becomes a reality and before Scottsdale opens up yet another resort for our alien tourists friends. The Arizona Republic announced today that Councilwoman Frances Emma Barwood, who recently asked city staff to look into reports of bright lights in the city's March skies, received the staff's finding: The city doesn't have an air force, so there isn't much to tell. "Since the city does not have resources or expertise to investigate the source of lights such as those that were reported, we depend on the United States Air Force to investigate all such matters," a three-paragraph report to Barwood states. Luke Air Force Base officials, however, said they do not plan to investigate. Barwood said, "It's still amazzing to me that no one seems to be that concerned. There definitely was something there. As to what it was, I don't have a clue. I'm kind of an open-minded skeptic." Barwood says that she has received more than 50 calls. "They all describe the same thing," she said. The callers all reported something that was huge and made no noise. The mayor, Skip Rimsza, continues to poke fun at Barwood saying things like, "Frances sees little green men". Barwood still doesn't understand why such a fuss was made when she asked city staff to look into the matter. The city should get to the bottom of what exactly was flying around the city's skies that night, she says. "It could have done damaged to antennas or something". Meanwhile, Channel 15 News incorrectly reported that the local MUFON investigators now agree with the National Guard that the lights seen were flares. Actually, they are saying only the stationary lights that were video-taped south of the city were flares. Military experts on flares have stated that these lights were not flares and one electro-optical engineer is setting out to prove it. Will the local MUFON soon have egg on its face? Certain amateur astronomers in the Phoenix area have also gone out of their way to explain the lights as: a formation of airplanes, flares carried on balloons, and other equally ridiculous explanations when you consider the evidence and testimonies of the witnesses. For the record I have stated that all analysis so far shows that NONE of the sightings on the night of March 13 over the state of Arizona have been explained and remain unidentified, unconventional, and unknown. Bill Hamilton Executive Director SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL Home e-mail: billh46088@aol.com, starmanbh@aol.com Work e-mail: bhamilto@pcshs.com SKYWATCH website: http://www.wic.net/colonel/ufopage.htm ALIEN MAGIC website: http://members.aol.com/billh46088/newhome.htm "It is easier to ridicule than investigate, but not as profitable" - Alan ---------- TO LEAVE THE LIST, send a message to: majordomo@primenet.com with the one line message of: unsubscribe in_search_of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 20 Re: .....Reducing Government Secrecy 1997 From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> Date: 20 May 97 12:25:45 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:29:04 -0400 Subject: Re: .....Reducing Government Secrecy 1997 >Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 23:44:28 -0400 >From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> >To: UFO Updates Mailing List <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Report of the Commission on Protecting and Reducing Government Secrecy 1997 Gary wrote; >The accessibility of this report may foster more informed discussions >which involve issues of government documentation, secrecy, >classification and de-classification. Regarding the Moynihan _commission_ a group of twelve senators chosen from both republican and democrats, charged with revamping the classification procedures of the US agencies most likely to keep secrets, I find the following quote the most amusing given the context; "A majority of the American people think that the CIA was involved in the assassination of John F Kennedy," said Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, D-NY. "That is a very bad thing." ('Feds keep too many secrets, panel says') As I pull on my conspiracy wellies(tm)*, I note that he targeted the CIA _specifically_ perhaps just letting slip there that it was the Sicilian Mafia and NRA, after all. Just for giggle we could link in the Medallion of the CIA that he was awarded in 1986. I'll remove the wellies for the rest of the post. Moynihan's general beef appears not to be that they are unecessarily classifying things that need classifying, but instead classify things like the paperclip budget, so I fail to see what effect this would have on something that would, if real, be classified so high as to require stepladders. Another thing I note is they want to reduce the ability to classify items under the US Gov from private industry. At the same conference (Impact '97) where Moynihan gave a talk on 'protection and reduction of secrecy' with a slant on information technology, there were symposia on Information warfare, industrial espionage and general information on the NISPOM attended by the NSA, FBI, DARPA, OSI and DIS. Within my original statement I said that government is extremely bad at keeping secrets longer than 30 years, and you mentioned Project Twinkle, which was leaked very quickly for a secret study. You intimated that I was either stupid or paid to appear stupid, which is your perogative, but then you appear to have mistaken a short paragraph for a not very well thought out missive. Maybe it was, but if you're going to throw around accusations of government involvement then I'd suggest having some kind of evidence to back them up to avoid looking foolish rather than simply throwing out a reference to something with less than a nodding aquaintance to the subject in hand. Now, if we can stop playing silly buggers and get down to the nitty gritty of whether there is a wide-ranging effort to cover things up, or just a vague finger-pointing in the general direction of the NSA, CIA and what have you. From the armchair that I occupy, I cannot see anything of the sort apart from these interest groups occasionally employing consultant scientists of varying degrees of competence to investigate these things on a presumably objective level. The comment about Hynek was just to counter the hypocrisy that tends to surround proclamations of 'our scientists' versus 'their scientists'. Hynek was paid for an awfully long time from the Pentagon, coming up with series of 'explanations' that never cease to amuse the armies of true believers, mysteriously sobering up as CUFOS trots forth it's material. I'm off to bayonet some kittens now. James A Diss ---------------------- HEALTH WARNING: Care Should Be Taken When Lifting This Product, Since Its Mass, and Thus Its Weight, Is Dependent on Its Velocity Relative to the User. -------------------- * 'wellies': Wellington Boots, shin-high water-proof rubber boots, named after The 'Iron' Duke of Wellington - ebk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 20 CPR-Canada Web Site Updated From: psa@direct.ca (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:44:34 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:34:19 -0400 Subject: CPR-Canada Web Site Updated CPR-CANADA WEB SITE UPDATE MAY 19, 1997 __________________________ In this update: WEB SITE CHANGES A couple changes to the web site itself, including new logo! BLT SAMPLING PROCEDURES, NEW LAB REPORT TO BE POSTED SOON Revised (1997) BLT Research sampling procedures are now available and will be posted soon, along with new lab report and analysis results of 1996 "Stonehenge Julia Set" formation. For further details on these and previous news items, please see the CPR-Canada web site at: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310 Keep checking for regular updates and news on 1997 Canadian circle formations (pending; previous reports from 1995 / 1996 will be posted soon!). __________________________ Paul Anderson Director Circles Phenomenon Research Canada Affiliate of Circles Phenomenon Research International Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522 E-Mail: psa@direct.ca Web: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 20 UFO Book Reviews From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:49:53 GMT Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:50:30 -0400 Subject: UFO Book Reviews Hi all, just a short note, I've recently added a new componet to my website. I get lot's of books, and read most of them. Please check out my book review section on my website. It's slowly growing, and changing. So please visit, bookmark and visit again, and please feel free to send comments. Thanks Paul Wms. Producer UFO Desk WBAI NY 99.5 FM http://www.escape.com/~paulw/ufodesk.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 20 South African UFO crashes? From: Jakes Louw <louwje@telkom.co.za> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:58:27 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:27:57 -0400 Subject: South African UFO crashes? Greetings esteemed list members............... I'm trying to get as much research material together as possible relating to two incidents in the Southern Africa region, namely: 1)The apparent crash and retrieval of a UFO in Botswana in May 1989, after allegedly being knocked down by some obscure weapon mounted on a Mirage jet fighter. 2) The apparent crash and retrieval of a UFO in Lesotho in September 1995. I know that people like Graham Birdsall, Anthony Dodd, and Joachim Koch have done a lot of research on these two incidents, so if they or anybody else would like to send me something, I'd be grateful. I've retrieved some material from the following sites: http://www.ufobbs.com http://www.ufomind.com http://www.nacomm.org If there any other sites with material, please let me know. Thanks, Jakes E. Louw Murphy's Law:"If something can go wrong, it will".
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 20 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> Date: 20 May 97 16:51:58 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:48:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context >Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:25:10 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Don Allen <dona@totcon.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context Don wrote; >> A quick visit to http://www.prometheusbooks.com/satp.htm shows that Prometheus publishes strictly debunking books on the Paranormal. If you're an atheist, transvestite or debunker, Prometheus has a book for you. << WWW.amazon.com has a wide selection of books on those subjects, too. James A Diss ---------------------- HEALTH WARNING: Care Should Be Taken When Lifting This Product, Since Its Mass, and Thus Its Weight, Is Dependent on Its Velocity Relative to the User. --------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 20 Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> Date: 20 May 97 16:51:46 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:47:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? >Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:33:17 -0400 >From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? Gary penned; >Even if you were deliberately spreading incorrect information >it does not entitle you to any goverment position, do you often >fantasize about working for the government? Well, actually I did for a while, but then I understand that there are a huge number of people involved in government, then support services, industries etc. I fantasise about world peace, but I understand that doesn't make me a bad person. Y'see I drew the parallel from a comment you made that I'll reproduce below; >>Oh and as to the government only having a >>"nodding acquaitance" with the UFO phenomenon >>- that's either ignorance or intentional deception The inference of 'intentional deception' is usually called 'disinformation', with 'ignorance' getting the almost similar 'misinformation'. I can understand that their impact has been somewhat reduced, but I did slightly resent the 'shoot first, ask questions later' method of debate. No matter, we'll just move on. >There are many other explanations for this behavior, >counter-intelligence agent isn't necessarily in the top ten. Please give us a rundown of the top-ten. I'll even let you know if you're close. >Thats a pretty inappropriate response, your usual let's waste the time >of people on this list by dodging the issue. Actually a less than direct challenge than the paragraph above. Tell me whether it's dis or mis, Gary. >You extrapolate just to ignore the point that you were wrong in your >original statement. Answer me this one, so we don't get entrenched into gainsaying for fun and profit. How many classified projects lasted thirty years (the 1995 Clinton HR cut-off date and a well known intelligence 'benchmark') before they ended up leaked or revealed? How many fifty year old ones? >I know that scientists were involved but you tried to convey in your >original post that goverment scientists weren't involved. So when a >point of fact is made that shows your statement was erroneous you are >off on a tangent about an irrelevant topic. Perhaps you have difficulty >focusing on a topic. Hang on a cotton pickin' minute here. Just because the government commissions a report on the Greenhouse effect doesn't mean they're au fait with the complexities involved, Indeed the republicans tried to reduce the committment to recording such changes as unproven science. Government's record on supporting scientific research in ANY country has been bitty, misinformed and in some cases downright ludicrous. Teller was brought in as a _consultant_. Hynek was brought in as a _consultant_. If you have doubts about this, then check with Alan Holt how much support was given to him during the investigation of Cash-Landrum and how much interest his field propulsion has received from AIAA. I was suggesting that _evidence_ suggests that governmental agencies have a 'nodding aquaintance' rather than the indepth interest claimed by some proponents of government coverup. I take it that you don't think that _tonnes_ of paperwork should have been generated over crashed disks? Given the fact that items of interest become declassified by accident, then hastily reclassified, don't you think we should have stumbled across more than _one_ mention of Majic/Majestic? >Why acknowledge something that you originally stated didn't exist? Where did I state they didn't exist? Kindly quote the passage back to me. >Is there any integrity in the statements you post to this list? Bucketloads, but you have to read them. >I'm losing faith that I'll be able to >read your posts without doing fact checking. You don't already? Why I could claim that I have aliens in a jar and you'd believe me? Gee, and here I was thinking that there was a propensity for checking things out here. >Another irrelevant response, speak man whats really on your mind? Hypocrisy, mainly. Our posts may cross on this subject, so I'll let it lie for a moment. >Let's play a game, I'll answer no so you can show everyone how clever >you are. Sorry Gary. You seem to be so entrenched in glib and flip comments regarding weighty documents that seek to tighten security that I doubt you'd appreciate that non-US intelligence services have anything to contribute to the subject. BTW, thanks for the reference to the Moynihan documents. It's providing an interesting read, but as I see it, it will serve to tighten security around areas of interest to the list and reduce the chances of leakage from representatives trying to score points. It has a charming naivete in terms of 'information theft' failing to nail the single crux that hacking is proportional to the system involved and the relative protection applied. I note with interest that Edward Condon was fingered as having Communist leanings though. Any chance we could debate this rather than having to defend myself, my integrity and my fantasies? James A Diss ---------------------- HEALTH WARNING: Care Should Be Taken When Lifting This Product, Since Its Mass, and Thus Its Weight, Is Dependent on Its Velocity Relative to the User. --------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 20 Mogul Balloons & Foil-like Material From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:37:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 23:21:17 -0400 Subject: Mogul Balloons & Foil-like Material Regarding... >Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:03:57 -0400 >From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> >Subject: Mogul Balloons & Foil-like Material I had pondered... ...what was this thin, dull, pliable, crease-resistant, foil-like material which had almost plastic properties and was so tough? One candidate which has been mentioned is Mylar. It's now a common material (although a more advanced composition) in balloons and exhibits the characteristics we would be looking for. It's the name registered by DuPont for poly(ethylene terephthalate), a polymer which now exists in many forms and is in widespread daily use. As a synthetic fibre, it was discovered in 1941 and became known by the more common names of Terylene and Dacron. The question was when did it become available in film form, i.e., Mylar. It seemed the people to ask were DuPont and they have kindly answered my query. According to the company: Mylar(R) was introduced in 1952, which answers both your questions: when polyester film was introduced and when it was called "Mylar(R)". Unless we have reason to believe otherwise, that should perhaps be accepted as an informed answer. James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 20 Karl Pflock's now Open Message to Stan Friedman From: Ralf Zeigermann <kag15@dial.pipex.com> Date: Tue, 20 May 97 22:25:24 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 23:04:11 -0400 Subject: Karl Pflock's now Open Message to Stan Friedman Hi Errol, hi list, another quite interesting USENET item I came across (not altered in any way, merely formatted down to 65 chars/line): *************************************************************** Tuesday, May 20, 1997 To those who may be interested: In mid-March, after discovering my colleague Stan Friedman had, on the February version of his web site, grossly misrepresented my views and the whys of the evolution of my views on the Roswell non-crash/retrieval of a flying saucer, I sent him a lengthy e-mail message detailing his errors. I asked that he post this message on his site. More than two months have passed, during which time I've reminded Friedman several times about the matter, receiving only stalling and non-responsive answers. He has since updated his site, with nary a mention of the matter or apology to me. Thus this posting. I regret having to do it, especially since, until now, I've considered Friedman a friend as well as a colleague. But the record must be set straight. What follows is the message I sent Friedman on March 16, 1997, with typos corrected and slightly edited for clarity. I encourage its further posting, copying, etc., and distribution far and wide--PROVIDED only that it be reproduced in its entirety and that this introduction be included. -- KARL T. PFLOCK -------------------------------------- Sunday, March 16, 1997 STAN -- Although our views on Roswell and such peripheral matters as the Plains of San Agustin have differed rather considerably, over the years we've know each other, you've always been fair in debating the issues with me. Until now, that is. I refer, of course, to your attack on me in your February 1997 web site report. Let me begin where you finished, with your gratuitous mention that "some have accused Pflock of still being connected with...the CIA, and playing out their agenda," and your averring that you've "seen no evidence to support this notion." This is the same cheap trick used by two-bit politicians to arouse suspicion about their opponents: "Some say my honorable opponent beats his wife and kicks his dog. However, I have not yet seen any evidence to support these shocking allegations, and far be it from me to suggest they're true." I'd thought better of you, Stan. Turning now to your specific allegations about my views on Roswell and other statements about me, essentially in the order that you stated them: (1) [N.B.: The following was a joking potshot. The only role I played--working with Fred Whiting of the Fund for UFO Research--was to arrange for a briefing of members of Congressman Schiff's personal and committee staff months before Mr. Schiff began receiving the numerous letters from constituents and others which eventually led him to look into Roswell. The briefing was conducted by Stan Friedman, Jesse Marcel, Jr., Whiting, and myself, and a member of Cong. Joe Skeen's staff sat in by speaker phone (Skeen represents Roswell).] You say I was "partly responsible" for getting Mr. Schiff to look into Roswell. Gee, Stan, you used to tell everyone that, if it weren't for me, Schiff wouldn't have done it. [This is true. He did.] I'm crushed, crushed. (2) You say I've changed my "entire tune" after having "stood strongly behind the case and especially...Glenn Dennis for some time, even writing a lengthy report for the Fund for UFO Research." You've known at least since spring 1994 I've had serious reservations about most of what passes for crashed-saucer evidence in the Roswell case. My Fund report, "Roswell in Perspective" (published in June 1994 and still available from the Fund)--clearly identified as an interim report--, makes this 100% clear. It is NOT--as you implied--a ringing endorsement of Roswell as a real crashed-saucer recovery case. I left the door open to the possibility a crashed saucer was involved, and that's all. Subsequent research and investigation by myself and others--including the dreaded Robert Todd--has slammed that door shut. Not the least important in this respect is the formerly classified record which to my mind is the stake through the heart of Roswell (see below). With specific reference to Glenn Dennis, the simple truth is, while I still believe he got caught up in something which got him into a bit of trouble, something which involved horribly disfigured bodies the Army didn't want the public to know about, there is no doubt in my mind those bodies were earthly and quite human. You've known this for quite some time, in fact, well before my January 6, 1997, letter to Glenn. As for his nurse, come on, Stan! No conspiracy in the world is so efficient it could wipe out all evidence of her existence, including all members of her family, etc. And why has Glenn changed her name several times--not to mention significantly waffling about the nature of his relationship with her? If there was a nurse, involved in the case or just the model for Glenn's description of and stories about her, she was one of the five in the 1947 RAAF yearbook, the only five nurses assigned to the base at the time of the incident. N.B.: You claim Vic Golubic hasn't "given up on Glenn's nurse." I just spoke with him, and he made quite clear you've, to put it politely, exaggerated his views. He told me he was merely leaving the door open to clean up some loose ends, loose ends left dangling by Glenn's fudging and fiddling with the alleged name of the alleged nurse. The simple truth is that, as I've learned more about Roswell specifics and other relevant information, my views have evolved, finally to the point I'm convinced it was not a crashed-saucer recovery at all. More important, Stan, is that we've discussed this over the past three years. It is no surprise to you. It is not some abrupt and mysterious change of tune, as you tried to imply in your web site item. (3) You say I've, "for reasons not well defined," accepted the Project Mogul explanation for the debris found by Brazel and rounded up by Marcel. "Reasons not well defined"?! Stan, Stan, you know that's absolute nonsense. I set down my reasons for the "Mogul explanation" in considerable detail in "Roswell in Perspective." (By the way, as you know, I was the first to publish the Mogul explanation, which I arrived at on the basis of my own research and with no help or hints from the Air Force, which didn't release its findings until some months later.) I've since learned quite a bit more about Mogul, what the Roswell witnesses said when about the debris and its properties, weather conditions in the greater Roswell-Corona area in June and early July 1947 (did you know the celebrated lightning storm couldn't have happened when you think it did, but rather around about June 13-14? Did you know the winds and other weather conditions on June 4 were such that it's a very safe bet it was debris from Mogul Flight 4 that Brazel found?), etc., etc. Bottom line: Contemporaneous witness descriptions of and the early testimony of witnesses interviewed later (from the late 1970s on) regarding the debris are strikingly consistent with what we know about the flight trains Mogul's New York University team was launched from Alamogordo Army Air Field, the latter from testimony of persons directly involved with Mogul and/or acquiring the equipment used (notably the radar targets festooned with "alien symbols") and the extensive documentation on the project. Is this well-enough defined for you, Stan? (4) You say I am "totally accepting Bob Todd's vicious attacks on Jesse Marcel, Sr.'s integrity" solely because Marcel's claims about his military record are "not supported by his [military] personnel file." While if I were Bob Todd, I would have chosen different words to describe Marcel and others and would have struck a different tone, facts are facts. The simple truth is that Marcel made checkable claims about his military, academic, and civil and military flying record, some of them quite impressive (e.g., 3000 hours as a civilian pilot before World War II), and NONE OF THEM CHECKS OUT. His military personnel file, the records of the five universities he claims to have attended, including the one he said he'd earned a physics degree from, FAA pilot's license records, etc., simply do not contain any documentation to support his claims. Period. Moreover, the form he filled out in his own hand when applying for a commission in the Army Air Forces asks for the applicant to set down any relevant civilian experience. Marcel did not mention anything about flying experience--this omission on an application to be an officer in the Army AIR Forces?! While it is certainly true mistakes are made in military and other files, it stretches probability to the breaking point for ALL the relevant records, military and civilian, to be lacking with respect to Marcel's claims about himself. Now then, if he did indeed do so many of the things he said he did, it would seem to me his family would have some record of some of them--as, for example, his diploma from The George Washington University, or perhaps his five air medals. If so, why haven't they been offered into evidence? Sadly, Stan, Marcel's false self-puffery calls into question his credibility across the board. Is it reasonable to accept a man's story about his having helped recover the wreckage of an alien spaceship when we can't even trust his testimony about the fundamentals of his own life? Concerning the formerly classified record, there are now publicly extant approximately 25 formerly classified documents--most Secret, several Top Secret, and one Confidential, most Air Force, one CIA, a couple Army--from the period July 1947 thru May 1955 which establish beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt that the U.S. government did not have in its possession physical evidence of any sort that the flying saucers were craft from another world. These written-decades-before-FOIA documents include correspondence among and between the senior military officers and scientists who were worrying the flying saucer problem and transcripts of classified meetings and briefings involving such folks. None of the documents--NOT ONE--makes any reference of any sort to Roswell or any other alleged "crash-retrieval." Several specifically state NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE is in hand. Some of these and others explicitly lament this lack. Those writing and speaking were the people whose job it would have been to study and exploit any recovered alien materials, organic and inorganic. They didn't have such materials to work on, and they were very frustrated by it. This is the stake through Roswell's heart, Stan. Finally, you use your mantra "absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence" to blind the credulous (and yourself?) to the huge mound of evidence which does exist that suggests very, very strongly--strongly enough to meet at the very least the preponderance of evidence test of civil law--that Roswell was spawned by the discovery of some very earthly if a bit unusual junk in the context of the tremendous excitement and concern generated by the hundreds of flying saucer sightings reported over the previous two weeks--not to mention the efforts of certain Roswell "researchers" decades later. Moreover, it ignores a basic common-sense principle on the basis of which both minor and momentous decisions are made every day, including in court: If a thorough search for evidence of an explanation for an event or act or whatever turns up nothing, it is reasonable to conclude no such evidence exists. This is especially so if a great deal of other credible evidence does exist which points to an alternative explanation. Stan, for the nonce, I'm going to make copies of this e-mail message available only to Herb Taylor, Bob Todd, and Fred Whiting for their information only. I challenge you to post it, unaltered, when you next update your web site. If you don't, I'll then feel free to distribute it far and wide. I hope you don't disappoint me yet again. -- Sincerely, KARL [Pflock] *************************************************************** Cheers, Ralf
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 20 Shadow in crater From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:31:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:31:09 -0400 Subject: Shadow in crater Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:45:42 +0200 From: Jakes Louw <louwje@telkom.co.za> To: updates@globalserve.net Subject: Shadow in crater Can somebody please explain how there can be a shadow thrown in a crater on the far side of the moon, that seems to have no reason for being there? Go have a look at the following image: http://images.jsc.nasa.gov/images/pao/AS15/10075717.jpg (I attached it as well). The light source seems to be from the right side of the photo, but looking at the lower part of the crater, there seems to be a large oval shadow cast by something ABOVE and to the RIGHT, possibly an object in near orbit.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 21 IUFO: Hubble Finds Harsher Mars Climate From: Ndunlks@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:16:26 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:40:45 -0400 Subject: IUFO: Hubble Finds Harsher Mars Climate -> SearchNet's IUFO Mailing List .c The Associated Press WASHINGTON (AP) - The Hubble Space Telescope, acting like an interplanetary weather satellite, has found that Mars is colder, cloudier and more unpleasant than astronomers once believed. The weather changes rapidly on Mars, NASA scientists said Tuesday, as they described the Hubble's role in preparing for the arrival on Mars of U.S. probes on July 4 and in September. ``If humans want to colonize another place in the solar system, Mars is the closest place to ours,'' said Ed Weiler, the Hubble program's chief scientist. ``It's got clouds, it has an atmosphere, it has water. Temperature extremes are bad, but they are not that much worse than Antarctica. And people manage in Antarctica.'' Twenty-one years ago, the Viking landers sent back images of a calm, dusty planet under a gray sky. Instead, the Hubble shows the weather to be unpredictable. One week the sky is pink and cloudless, filled with the rust-colored dust raised from the Martian surface. The day would be warm, about 40 degrees below zero, Fahrenheit. In just a few days, the dust is swept away, temperatures drop 40 degrees and brilliant water ice clouds appear against a dark blue sky. Not just one region has those changes; they are planet-wide. The Hubble shows Mars is often more cloudy than dusty. ``The primary force changing Mars is moving dust,'' said Steven W. Lee, a planetary scientist as the university of Colorado. ``Areas stable for 100 years have been changing.'' The conditions on Mars will affect the operation of both the Mars Pathfinder, arriving on Mars on Independence Day, and the Sept. 11 arrival of the Mars Global Surveyor, which will map the planet from orbit. The Hubble will be used to make 11th-hour pictures of the red planet. ``If we see anything unusual with the Hubble, we can reprogram that day,'' said Matthew P. Golombek, a geologist at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California. Pathfinder uses the atmosphere to slow for landing. Sunlight provides the power for both the lander and a small vehicle it will release to rove on the surface, investigating the materials it finds there. The Global Surveyor is braked by friction as it enters the Martian atmosphere, whose density then becomes a key factor. The Hubble will track regional dust storms. Hubble-made color and black and white pictures of Mars just two weeks after Earth made its closest approach to the planet a few months ago - 62 million miles away. Mars, at that time, was almost at its farthest point from the sun and the faintness of sunlight chills the atmosphere and stimulated formation of water ice clouds. Earth's orbit about the sun is circular, but Mars is not. The difference in average temperatures between the closest point and the farthest can be 80 degrees on Mars. ``The images show Mars as it has never been seen before from Earth orbit,'' Weiler said. AP-NY-05-20-97 1815EDT
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 21 Re: Shadow in crater From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 02:39:46 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 05:40:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Shadow in crater >Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:45:42 +0200 >From: Jakes Louw <louwje@telkom.co.za> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Shadow in crater >Can somebody please explain how there can be a shadow >thrown in a crater on the far side of the moon, that >seems to have no reason for being there? It's on the edge Jakes (borderland between dark and light) I'd imagine that an object large enough to cast a shadow that size would block light much more completely than is shown in the photo. It would be much blacker, much more clearly defined, and you wouldn't be able to see so much ground detail. Also, the shadow is not symetrical, there is an appendage on its lower right side that ruins the illusion of an 'artificial' source. If not for that, the illusion *is* strong that it is a shadow being cast by something round. >Is that just a discolouration of the terrain, or what? That would be my guess as well. The lighter material could be younger, (some form of ejecta) from a period *after* the original crater was formed that smoothed and filled in the central part of the crater. Conversely, the 'dark' material could be older, rougher looking terrian, explaining the difference in appearance. There are examples of this all over the moon. The borders of the Lunar Maria are especially good examples of this. Where younger and older material appear side by side. The contrast can be dramatic at times. Or, I could be all wrong and it's the 'Hail Mary' mother ship orbiting the moon full of aliens, chupacabras, kidnapped WWII pilots, tons of cow tongues, rectums, human male semen, and,... piloted by Bo and Tee! <G> Just one mans opinion, Walter Crankcase reporting! Hope the info helps Jakes. John Velez :) * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 21 Alien abductions - real? If so ... From: plandry1@netcom.ca Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:39:56 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:56:28 -0400 Subject: Alien abductions - real? If so ... Hello everyone; I am sending this posting because this person is looking for someone that maybe we can help him find. Thank-you Diane [Landry] ------Begin forward message------------------------- From: afoos@fpcc.cc.mt.us (Alan R. Foos) To: "ISO" <in_search_of@primenet.com> Subject: [In_Search_Of] Alien abductions - real? If so ... Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:25:47 -0600 Whatever has happened to Dr. John Mack? In briefly scanning numerous sites, I thought perhaps he might be found. I may be speaking out of turn here, but if these abductions are real, and the monstrous fact is that they are, a great deal of official concern should be focused on that area. I'm sorry if the whole thing sounds ludicrous, it just happens to be fact, and it ought be sobering us up a bit. This is the text I recently wrote to someone, though I'd consider it a privilege if it were to reach Dr. Mack personally: I'm not sure what I can contribute here. I have a strong science background and am basically very down to earth. I'm not an abductee, nor have I ever seen a UFO. I began researching info on the web on this subject as entertainment. I would have never believed such things at all except for a few horrifying things that gradually dawned on me. If a person was abducted, who, indeed would believe it? Secondly, there was an experience I had, in 1959, at the age of 11, that I've ever since struggled to understand. After reading numerous abduction accounts and seeing numerous depictions of the "greys," it suddenly occurred to me, without any doubt and with great horror, that "greys" had indeed attempted to abduct me at that time, but had failed. I'm fairly sure that they did fail, that there was no memory lapse. The consistency of the anecdotes I've read combined with the memories of this incident make it certain that the phenomenon is no joking matter. It is real. And I am now no longer entertained, but deeply concerned. The animal mutilations are an apparently related matter that deserve serious study. I'm not the only one to think this way, I'm sure, but I find nothing at all interesting or benign about the alien abductions. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care how technologically "advanced" these beings are, the procedure is disgusting and vile beyond belief. Furthermore, there is no way to tell what their ultimate purposes are. If one delves into the more bizarre "folklore" surrounding the existence of "greys" and other alien beings, in fact, he finds things unthinkably horrible. My attitude may be colored by my country upbringing, but I firmly believe that anything, man or beast, particularly something with such intentions, that enters my home uninvited should be killed on the spot. Of course, they seem far too wiley to be killed, in most cases people are completely helpless, or so it seems. All the more reason to develop an adequate defense and resist them, indeed, kill them if possible. Also, all reports from sources who seem to be most intimately acquainted with the "greys" describe them as incorrigible liars. The possibility of obtaining any kind of benefits from these "advanced" beings pales in comparison to both known and potential evils, in fact, if one judges the unknown based on the known, we can be sure that they are evil beyond imagination. I'm not sure if the details of the attempted abduction as a child are very relevant here - they may serve to convince, but they may just as well convince the listener that I was suffering from some kind of hallucination or imagination. That is definintely not true. I observed the filthy little buggers for about two weeks indirectly, and caught sight of them twice, briefly, but clearly. Why they did not succeed in abducting me is speculative, but one certain reason is that they were waiting for me to fall asleep, which I did not do, having caught on to their presence before they had the chance, and refusing to fall asleep as long as I knew I was being observed. At that time I'd never heard of a UFO or an alien, and had absolutely no idea what they were. My impression of them was of funny little men in derby hats, a perception too ludicrous for even me to accept. It wasn't until I'd scanned numerous illustrations and accounts that it suddenly struck me that the "hats" I seemed to see in the half darkness corresponded to the bulbous heads and puny ears of these creatures and that the overall shape of the heads was exactly the same as the typical "grey." Now, this is my opinion, I guess, though for me it is fact, and a view held by quite a few others. My belief is that nothing that the "greys" do can be trusted, it cannot even be assumed that they are truly alien. My opinion, and I believe the safest conclusion, is that they correspond in some way to the biblical notion of "demons." I especially concur with Norio Hayakawa and others that the "alien" threat is a precursor to the "great delusion" mentioned in biblical Revelation, and that what we are witnessing is a forerunner to tribulation events. That may not be acceptable to many, but at the least it deserves some very serious thought. And religous or spiritual beliefs aside, the abductions are real, they are heinous, they need to be publicly acknowledged now, and people need to be properly informed. Whatever is going on, it's a serious matter. Al afoos@fpcc.cc.mt.us ------End forward message--------------------------- " PARANORMAL AND THE UNKNOWN " http://www.psn.net./-bryan/Bryan.htm<;/color> mailto: Bryan at: <bryan@psn.net> Diane at: plandry1@netcom.ca " the truth is out there "
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 21 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 03:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 05:48:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context >Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:25:10 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Don Allen <dona@totcon.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context <snip> >My opinion is, he [Korff] did such sloppy "research" on the Meier case that >I don't feel like wasting $27 on yet-another copy-cat rehash of the bobbsey >twins, Todd and Pflock." To which Kal Korff replies: Dear Don, unless you are PSYCHIC my friend, or have somehow gained access to my new book, you couldn't possibly know what's in it let alone dismiss it as a "copy-cat" work. I find it interesting that you and everyone else so far have BLATANTLY IGNORED those parts of the book that do constitute ORIGINAL RESEARCH AND NEW REVELATIONS. Need I point them out?? Don, if I did such a "sloppy research" job on the Meier case as you claim, then perhaps you can "enlighten" us on two simple issues here: 1) My analysis of Meier's "Venus" photos. WHERE did I make a mistake here, Don? My analysis of these images represents the first time ever that these photos were studied (and published) in detail. PLEASE EXPLAIN where I erred here, Don, and feel free to REFUTE and CORRECT my analysis if you will. 2) My analysis of Meier's photos of the "Pleiadian" craft "landed" on the ground as shown in pages 156-157 of my book "Spaceships of the Pleiades: The Billy Meier Story." Please, Don, REFUTE or EXPLAIN my "sloppy research" here where I claim that these photos show a small model close to the camera. After you successfully "refute" these two points, Don, I'll continue to go down the list over scores of points with you until I am able to document from you in painstaking detail WHERE and on WHAT I supposedly "screwed up" on in my analysis of the Meier case. So far, for what it's worth Don, the overwhelming consensus based on numerous feedback I have received from both the media and UFO researchers, you are in the distinct minority. This doesn't mean, however, that your points are necessarily wrong, time will tell, so please EXPLAIN in the meantime HOW I goofed on these images/issues. The UFO field could really learn something from this, if you are right, Don. <snip> >Don't you find it curious that Korff has evaded responding in detail to >David <Rudiak's lengthy questions to him regarding Marcel? Don, if you are going to cite my actions to buttress your biased opinions, then PLEASE get your FACTS STRAIGHT! I AM NOT "ducking" either Rudiak or ANYONE else. I have TOLD YOU REPEATEDLY (and others) that proper replies take lots of time and I have been overwhelmed with correspondence and other issues. I am working long hours as fast as I can, and since I have posted numerous letters to this forum explaining all this, there's no excuse for YOU to be "sloppy" regarding this topic, to use your own words, Don. For your information, Don, my reply to YOU (which was some 20 pages) has now been edited down to 12, and I will be posting it VERY soon. Because you (Don) made inquiries to me FIRST, I have replied to them first, THEN I will respond to Rudiak since he was kind enough to answer my questions that I had to subsequently ask him. My response to Rudiak is also more lengthy and required a lot more attention. It was not too difficult however, just time consuming as you will see. Don, in closing, you have boasted in your past postings that you are not a Meier follower or "believer" necessarily but that you do like to see "both sides" posted and discussed. This issue of wanting to aire all sides is certainly commendable. However, with regards to me, you seem to have made an exception and seem to hold some sort of bias somewhere and to the extreme that it has managed to make you FORGET about my numerous cautions to everyone that I am trying to get caught up and am extremely busy. Today, in my AOL "in-box" alone, I have exactly 403 messages!! YOU or anyone else try and respond to such a load on a timely basis. As I close, before I finally send my lengthy Meier response to you, Don, I need you to answer one quick question for me: A while back, you mentioned that you would "see to it" that my response to Billy Meier got posted on his WEB page. May I inquire as to HOW you intend to do this and is this offer for real? Your answer(s) and explanation(s) will directly affect the ending of my response, and how I word it, which I cannot complete until I receive information from you on this matter. Then, I can and will, send you my response right away. In the meantime, if you could also take the time to explain how I was "sloppy" with regards to the two Meier pieces of photo evidence I cited above, I would appreciate you please sending along this info as well. Respectfully yours, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 21 Astronauts & UFO Pictures From: Werner Walter <106156.3630@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 03:39:31 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:28:10 -0400 Subject: Astronauts & UFO Pictures Hi all, here is Werner Walter from the german UFO-network CENAP which was founded in 1976. I hope to get find help from anyone on the list. Last year going "new" american astronauts UFO-pictures around. Since then I try to get the full story behind this material and a set of full-view-pictures of this material. Who can help in this matter??? Werner
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 21 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:10:48 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:00:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context >Date: 20 May 97 16:51:58 EDT >From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context >>Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:25:10 -0400 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Don Allen <dona@totcon.com> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context >Don wrote; >>> A quick visit to http://www.prometheusbooks.com/satp.htm shows that >Prometheus publishes strictly debunking books on the Paranormal. >If you're an atheist, transvestite or debunker, Prometheus has a >book for you. To which James responded: >WWW.amazon.com has a wide selection of books on those subjects, too. But one is a book publisher, and the other a book seller. Let's compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Prometheus Books appears to publish material that is not handled by most mainstream publishing houses. This does not make them an agent of CISCOP, but it appears that their paranormal offering tends to be skeptical in nature. BTW, I've seen very little discussion of THE UFO INVASION, which is published by Prometheus Books, and was just released last month. It also contains a section on the Alien Autopsy "film", as well as other facets of the genre (such as Roswell, and Government Conspiracy). My advice would be that if you aren't a card carrying member of CISCOP, don't waste your money.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 21 Re: Shadow in crater From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:40:33 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:02:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Shadow in crater > Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:45:42 +0200 > From: Jakes Louw <louwje@telkom.co.za> > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Shadow in crater > The light source seems to be from the right side of the > photo, but looking at the lower part of the crater, > there seems to be a large oval shadow cast by something > ABOVE and to the RIGHT, possibly an object in near orbit. > The crater is the Tsiolkovsky crater on the far side of > the moon. > Is that just a discolouration of the terrain, or what? Yes. In some large craters, mare material makes darker areas. You can see it in many lunar photos, especially more vertical views. One famous crater on the far side has a floor of mare material (but which one escapes my mind at the moment). ------- Mark Cashman, creator of the Temporal Doorway at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/5623/ Original digital art, writing and UFO research mcashman@ix.netcom.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 21 Lazar on MSN's 'Project: watchfire' 05-27-97 From: "Diana Hopkins" <DDBH@msn.com> Date: Wed, 21 May 97 13:53:47 UT Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:02:29 -0400 Subject: Lazar on MSN's 'Project: watchfire' 05-27-97 "Project: watchfire", the MSN webshow that investigates the UFO phenomena is going free this week for all netizens to access. Salley Rayl of Omni: Project Open Book is the Host and head writer. The URL is http://watchfire.msn.com. This week's episode: Bob Lazar tells his story about back-engineering a captured spacecraft for the government at Los Alamos. Review the latest scientific findings that back up his findings. Bob will be appearing live in a Netshow audio interview on Tuesday, May 27th at 6pm, PST on PW. You'll need to have Internet Explorer and Netshow installed but it's well worth it. The only difference with the free access versus the subscription is that you won't be able to ask questions. You can also access the Bulletin and Briefing Room Chat area. However, if anyone at UFO Updates wants to submit questions to DDBH@msn.com, we'll make sure they are passed on. The free access will start sometime on Thursday - May 22nd.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 21 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 03:35:21 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:25:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context >From: KRandle993@aol.com >Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:17:42 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context >I've been waiting to see Kal Korff's book to see if he took my statement >about relying only on the public record out of context. What a surprise. He >did. To which Kal Korff replies: Kevin, I did NOT misquote you nor did I take what you said out of context. For the record, Kevin, here is EXACTLY what your words were, so don't try to DENY them: "If I had to rely on the public record [in the Roswell case], I'd throw up. The evidence is not strong and it's not compelling." (Kevin Randle, personal interview over the telephone with reporter Art Levine for a MSNBC article featuring Kal Korff, October 1996.) Two questions, Kevin: 1) Since the testimonies of Major Jesse Marcel, Bill Brazel, Jesse Marcel Jr., Walter Haut, Bessie Schreiber, Walt Whitmore Jr., Floyd Proctor, and Blanchard's widow are ALL in the public record, (and had been so for some 15 YEARS BEFORE you made your curious statement) are you saying their testimonies are "not strong" or "not compelling?" 2) The testimonies of Jim Ragsdale, Sally Tadolini, Frankie Rowe, Frank Kaufmann, Sgt. Melvin Brown, Glenn Dennis, and Rueben Anaya are also in the public record, Kevin, no thanks to you (or do you blame Don Schmitt for this as well?). This has been the case for many YEARS, Kevin, as you well know. After all, YOU and Schmitt put Roswell "on the map" big time via Hollywood and Showtime's adaptation of you and Schmitt's book., or do you blame Don solely for all this? Are you saying, Kevin, that these testimonies are "not strong" and are "not compelling" as well? The very ones that you, yourself, brought into the "public record"? Please answer these questions, Kevin, simple short answers with respect to each of these individuals and WHERE you stand regarding their statements will suffice, Kevin. This is WHY I asked you, by the way, sometime back in another posting, "Where Does Kevin Randle REALLY Stand?" I guess, Kevin, unless you are going to DUCK this issue or blame Don Schmitt for your words QUOTED VERBATIM that I cite on page 228 of my new book "The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want You to Know", we are FINALLY going to indeed find out where you REALLY stand concerning the veracity of these witnesses' testimonies. Please tell us WHICH Roswell "witnesses" you DO believe and WHICH ones you do NOT, Kevin, and WHY!!! THIS, should prove interesting. ;-) Respectfully yours, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 21 Re: Aliens are they real? From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:36:58 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:11:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Aliens are they real? Regarding the recent UFO Updates mailing list posting regarding memoreis of an attempted abduction incident: >From: plandry1@netcom.ca >Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:39:56 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: UFO Update Aliens are they real? >------Begin forward message------------------------- >From: afoos@fpcc.cc.mt.us (Alan R. Foos) >To: "ISO" <in_search_of@primenet.com> >Subject: [In_Search_Of] Alien abductions - real? If so ... >Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:25:47 -0600 >... I may be speaking out of turn >here, but if these abductions are real, and the monstrous fact is that they >are, a great deal of official concern should be focused on that area. I'm >sorry if the whole thing sounds ludicrous, it just happens to be fact, and >it ought be sobering us up a bit. >I'm not sure what I can contribute here. I have a strong science >background and am basically very down to earth. I'm not an abductee, nor >have I ever seen a UFO. I began researching info on the web on this >subject as entertainment. I would have never believed such things at all >except for a few horrifying things that gradually dawned on me. If a >person was abducted, who, indeed would believe it? Secondly, there was an >experience I had, in 1959, at the age of 11, that I've ever since struggled >to understand. After reading numerous abduction accounts and seeing >numerous depictions of the "greys," it suddenly occurred to me, without any >doubt and with great horror, that "greys" had indeed attempted to abduct me >at that time, but had failed. I'm fairly sure that they did fail, that >there was no memory lapse. The consistency of the anecdotes I've read >combined with the memories of this incident make it certain that the >phenomenon is no joking matter. It is real. And I am now no longer >entertained, but deeply concerned. The animal mutilations are an >apparently related matter that deserve serious study. >Al >afoos@fpcc.cc.mt.us I found this post relevant to some email I just sent a correspondent last night regarding the concept of UFO "detectors" and the possibility of devising equipment and methodologies to monitor alleged abductions. Consequently I felt it appropriate to post part of that email here: ===================================================================== I've also always been interested in the concept of a UFO detector, though I'm not mechanically or electronically inclined enough to seriously pursue it. However, since your dad apparently is, you might direct his attention to the following web page on how to "Build Your Own UFO Detector". Its at: http://members.aol.com/CoolJ101/index.html Background and step-by-step instructions are provided. I haven't looked at it in awhile, but if I ever have time, I'll probably try it (not that it would be much use here if history is any indicator!). The detector is based (as I recall) on sensing magnetic field variations often associated with UFOs. I've recently been pondering the thought that the folks who really should have UFO detectors are those who claim they're currently the subjects of ongoing abductions by aliens. There are several folks on the web who claim to have a long history of ongoing abductions, and they seem like the perfect "guinea pigs" for testing such equipment. I wonder if anyone has ever approached such folks about a cooperative effort to develop sensitive equipment that could then be provided at nominal charge to anyone who suspects they are being abducted. These events often occur in the person's bedroom, which would be an ideal environment to set up a controlled test. For example, one could hook up a UFO detector to a video camera aimed at the subject's bed, so if the little guys came to pick them up for a joy ride, the event could be recorded for all of us to enjoy, sans commercials. Or the detector could be hooked up to floodlights, or a loud siren, or just about anything you might think of to react to the event. I've had various other ideas for monitoring and/or interfering with alleged abductions from bedrooms - some electrical and some mechanical. Weight sensors under bedposts, for instance, to record changes in load during the night, such as when a person is taken for awhile. That way abduction times and lengths could be recorded and monitored. Or how about having the potential abductee wear one of the same sort of transmitters that minor criminals are sometimes made to wear by the courts when they are put under "house arrest" in their own home. If the person gets out of range of the base unit (as in an abduction), the base unit no longer picks up the transmitter and automatically notifies a remote sight (the police, in the case of criminals). There must be dozens of ways to monitor all these alleged abductees and establish some solid evidence if something is happening. It surprises me that nobody has taken the steps to do it. Maybe selling various sorts of UFO detectors and abductee monitoring equipment would make a nifty little niche mail-order business for someone nuts enough to take it on and establish a relevant web page advertising the rather "one of a kind" product line to the right target groups.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 21 Re: Mogul Balloons & Foil-like Material From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 21 May 97 08:43:29 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:03:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Mogul Balloons & Foil-like Material >Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:37:30 -0400 >From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Mogul Balloons & Foil-like Material >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >...what was this thin, dull, pliable, crease-resistant, foil-like >material which had almost plastic properties and was so tough? >One candidate which has been mentioned is Mylar. >It's now a common material (although a more advanced composition) in >balloons and exhibits the characteristics we would be looking for.> >It's the name registered by DuPont for poly(ethylene terephthalate), >a polymer which now exists in many forms and is in widespread daily >use. >As a synthetic fibre, it was discovered in 1941 and became known by >the more common names of Terylene and Dacron. >The question was when did it become available in film form, i.e., >Mylar. >It seemed the people to ask were DuPont and they have kindly answered >my query. According to the company: >Mylar(R) was introduced in 1952, which answers both your questions: >when polyester film was introduced and when it was called "Mylar(R)". >Unless we have reason to believe otherwise, that should perhaps be >accepted as an informed answer. James, You are missing an important point. Ordinary Mylar film would not be described as looking like metal foil, particularly lead foil. To someone in 1947, it would look like incredibly tough cellophane. If we are looking for a material which would fit the descriptions of the Roswell foil, we are looking for aluminized Mylar. This Mylar, which is coated with a layer of vacuum sputtered aluminum came along much later. Dupont should be asked when they first began making aluminized Mylar. I think it was developed for Nasa in the early 60s, but this is worth knowing. I think we can be certain that it was not around in 1947. Also, even though Dupont makes this as Mylar, Eastman Kodak also makes it as Estar. I don't know when they began making it. They use it as a tear-resistant base for some types of photographic film. I'm pretty sure this didn't arrive on the scene until the late 60s. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 21 Posting Rules From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:58:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:58:30 -0400 Subject: Posting Rules Posting Rules To help current and future readers of UFO UpDates' posts and the UFO UpDates Instant Archive software at: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates please observe the following rules when posting to the List. 1. Line-length Please make your lines no more than 70 characters long ------------------------This line is 70 characters--------------------- Longer lines are wrapped by various pieces of software along the Net and leave awkward and eye-jarring line lengths. 2. Attribution When responding to a message from the List, _always_ include the four line 'header' from the body of that message at the start of _your_ message - eg.: >Date: 01 Jan 97 00:00:01 EST >From: Genghis@mukluk.com <Bob Bobberts> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Grays are Grey Area Again - it's at the beginning of the 'body' of the message you are responding to. 3. Quoting _Always_ quote from the message to which you are responding. Start each quoted line with a 'greater-than' sign (>) as the first character. It should look like this: >Start each quoted line with a 'greater-than' sign (>) as the >first character. It should look like this: The Archive software will automatically italicize these lines. Visit the Archive page and take a look. Keep quoted material from previous messages to a minimum: Just quote enough text to let people know what you are referring to. Quotes should come _before_ you key your response. Messages that do not utilize the required quoting protocol or contain excessive quoting will not be posted to UpDates. Most modern E-Mail software will allow the user to click a 'Reply' button and automatically open a new window, with the message being responded to inserted with universal quote-mark (>) at the beginning of each line. When 'Reply' is clicked, some E-Mail software will insert a line which states: On 01 Jan 97 at 00:00:01 EST, UFO UpDates wrote: If your program does this, please remove it - UFO UpDates did not _write_ the message - it merely posted it to the List. 5. Don't send 'personal' responses to the list that should be sent directly to the original author. Send a message to the list only if it contains new information that you want _everyone_ to see. Messages that contain what the List Administrator considers to be personal attacks or 'flames' will not be posted to the List. Those messages will be forwarded to the person they refer to for their information. 6. URLs (Web Site addresses) _must_ include 'http://' and be on one line. The Archive software will make the URL a 'click-able' link to that address in your archived message. ------------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 21 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:27:19 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:56:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: Kal K. Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 To: Updates@globalserve.net Subject: Kevin Randle Gets it Wrong #1 & 2 In a recent postings, pro-UFO Roswell author Kevin Randle has cited examples of where he claims my new book on Roswell, "The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want You to Know", is in error. Because of time limitations due to my hectic schedule, I shall address only two of Randle's false claims today, and deal with the rest of them over a series of postings throughout the next few days. Here goes: <snip> <I [Kevin Randle] have said that our files, notes, and audio tapes are available for review at <the CUFOS. Korff reports this isn't true, but Korff never even called CUFOS to learn the <truth. Instead, he repeats what Robert Todd has said about it. To which Kal Korff responds: Kevin, unless you are psychic, which you are NOT, THERE'S NO WAY YOU CAN KNOW THAT I "NEVER EVEN CALLED CUFOS". The TRUTH of the matter is that I DID telephone CUFOS and have had for sometime now more than one source within the organization who does work for me, as well as others. For your information, Kevin, I first started this process in 1995 when I was personally in Chicago attending the American Bookseller Association convention where my (then new) book, "Spaceships of the Pleiades: The Billy Meier Story," made its' debut. At that time, I was in direct contact with Mark Rodigher of CUFOS regarding their files and the possibility of filing (and funding) a lawsuit in order to try and obtain the files of APRO for possible donation to CUFOS. I even had the backing of the only surviving member of the late Jim and Coral Lorenzen's family, Larry Lorenzen. I knew both Jim and Coral Lorenzen when they were alive, and we were close. As I mentioned, I believe in a previous posting, I saw Coral just before she passed away and she let me go through their files. Unfortunately, the lawsuit effort fell through. It was shortly after this time, Kevin, that I first learned that some of the key, critical material you CLAIM is on file at CUFOS simply isn't. In fact, Kevin, I CHALLENGE you to produce these items and others that people like Fred Whiting of the Fund for UFO Research and Stanton Friedman have been on your case to "pony up" for years now! If you would like me to, Kevin, I shall be happy to post to this forum Fred Whiting's list of items, just in case you've "forgotten" or care to "blame" your co-author, Don Schmitt, for the sudden "unavailability" of this material. Kevin, for your information I knew Dr. Hynek personally, and first met him when I was just sixteen years young. I was hired back then by Emmy Award winning producer Jon Dosa to interview Hynek for a Newark, California, cable TV show on UFOs which I had appeared on previously and had given a lecture before a live studio audience there. My contacts associated with CUFOS go back to its' very founding and I keep in touch with some of these acquaintances as needed. Speaking of Don Schmitt Kevin, you have a convenient scapegoat in Donald Schmitt in that you have and DO blame him for several of the errors in your Roswell books. You'd like us to believe that you're made of some sort of Teflon and that nothing's YOUR fault. OK, Kevin, let's give you the BENEFIT OF DOUBT HERE, and a FAIR shot at clearing up the public's record of confusion on this issue once and for all. I would like for you, Kevin, to POST TO THIS FORUM, ALL OF THE ADMITTED ERRORS AND MISTAKES YOU KNOW OF IN YOUR BOOK "THE TRUTH ABOUT THE UFO CRASH AT ROSWELL" and then in this list, CITE THE SPECIFIC ERRORS AND MISTAKES that YOU claim are "Don Schmitt's fault." After doing so, Kevin, we shall then contact Mr. Schmitt and get HIS side of the "story" and try to separate the fact from your fiction in this matter. IF you are truthful with us, Kevin, and are willing to play it as STRAIGHT as you claim, then producing this list would not only be a great service to the field of UFOlogy, but will finally extract you from the tar and abyss of Schmitt's fall from grace in this field because of his false claims about his background - which you NEVER noticed anyway until it was too late! While I issue this challenge to you, Kevin, I am placing a bet in Las Vegas that you will find some EXCUSE to DECLINE this offer. I sincerely hope that I am WRONG, and that you will come clean on this so that those of us interested in the UFO "truth" will be able to put this matter to rest. Regarding Major Jesse Marcel, Kevin Randle wrote: <snip> <Korff notes that Marcel, according to the interview he gave to Bob Pratt said he had a <Bachelor's degree. But, in the original transcript, the bachelors is in parens suggesting that <it was a comment by PRATT and not MARCEL. Korff apparently used, not the original <transcript, but the transcript as published by Karl Pflock in which Pflock made alterations <in an attempt (I think honest attempt) to make it clearer. By doing so, he [Pflock] actually <changed the meaning. Yeah, this is subtle, but gees, the guy (Korff) should be more careful <before he starts hurling allegations. To which Kal Korff responds: Kevin, it is too bad that you somehow managed to bungle your own point here. Let us take a look now at Marcel's OWN words from the very transcript by Karl Pflock that you so gleefully cite to settle this issue, shall we? Here is what Marcel said: "Marcel: Right. [I've been] around the world five times, been in sixty-eight countries. [I have] a degree in nuclear physics, bachelor's, at -- completed work at George Washington University in Washington, [D.C.]. [I] attended LSU [Louisiana State University]. Huston, University of Wisconsin, New York University, Ohio State, [unintelligible--Pratt], and GW." Kevin, I have retyped this transcript EXACTLY as Pflock prints it in his book. Notice that Marcel's claim about having a "Bachelor's" degree is NOT in "parens" as you claim. Furthermore, like many pro-UFO Roswell buffs, Kevin, you conveniently IGNORE the fact that despite the long list cited by Marcel as to where he CLAIMS he attended various universities, a simple check by anyone wishing to do so over the telephone easily establishes that Marcel did NOT attend all of the institutions he claims -- nor did he "complete[d] work at George Washington University. In fact, according to George Washington University, Marcel NEVER enrolled at the facility!! Also, in Marcel's OWN military file, where he wrote IN HIS OWN PRINTING, under otah, he flatly said he had "no degree," and never mentioned attending these other institutions either. No one can use the excuse that "military files aren't always accurate" here, because these entries are in Marcel's OWN WRITING! So, Kevin, (also Dave Rudiak, Philip Mantle, Michael Hesemann and any other Marcel supporters) WHY do ALL if you IGNORE these tall tales cited by Marcel regarding his background?? Did ANY OF YOU even BOTHER checking them? In closing, Kevin Randle opened his most recent posting of May 20, 1997 regarding me by writing: <snip> <Well, I've looked at more of Korff's book and I have to tell you I gotta laugh. He [Korff] <apparently did no independent research but sat in the library picking up everything <negative ever said and reporting it as if it were the truth. To which Kal Korff responds: Well, Kevin, I guess now that your points have been refuted, you must be laughing at yourself. ;-) I, however, feel sorry for the field of UFOlogy and those numerous people who have a sincere desire to learn the "truth about the Roswell UFO crash" as your book so boldly declares. If you have any compassion, or decent ethics, Kevin, you will come CLEAN about these issues and post into the public record the REAL truth for cross examination. IF and WHEN you do this, the UFO field will be better off, the public will have been served as they should, and I WILL see to it that the CUFOS DOES get a copy of this material for their files. How about it, Kevin?? Finally, Kevin, you are VERY WRONG about your claim that I did "no original research" in my investigation of Roswell. Again, unless you are PHYCHIC, you are in NO POSITION to "know" what I've done. Lastly, I know of NO library cited by Kevin Randle where I could go and "pick up everything negative ever said" about Roswell, to use Randle's own words here. Just exactly WHERE is this "library" located, Kevin, and what purpose would it serve to go there? Nevermind, I would rather you focus on providing that list we all want to see.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 21 Re: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! From: TotlResrch@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 04:03:36 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:31:43 -0400 Subject: Re: CSICOP & Kal Korff's Relationship! In a recent posting dated May 13, 1997, Mr. Henny van der Pluijm stated: <snip> <But Kal, Confuscious is also saying: 'If people only concern themselves with myths' - i.e., Meier, Roswell - "one must ask himself why". Henny's statement was in response to Kal Korff's earlier comment from May 12, 1997, which in part read as follows: <snip> <Confuscious saying: "Don't ever tell UFO researchers that Roswell did not involve <the recovery of an alien spacecraft, or you will be labeled a debunker or a <skeptic, especially if you are not and your publisher just happens to be <Prometheus Books. Nothing you say will ever convince these types." To which Kal Korff responds: Dear Henny and others who are interested in this: I can understand why SOME of you think I might be a "debunker" (even though I am not) because my last two books have been about "exposing" two of the most popular UFO cases of all time. I would hope that you will at least consider the following however. 1) Just because I have written two books exposing two UFO cases does not make me a debunker. As an investigative journalist who has had articles published in more than 15 magazines worldwide, MOST of my UFO-related articles have NOT been "exposes" -- indeed far from it. Obviously, many of you have either short memories, or you have NOT been in the UFO field as long as I have, which is now going on 24 YEARS! As an example, I USED to have a MONTHLY column in the old Saga's UFO Report magazine which used computers to analyze UFO photos and motion picture films, and I declared many of them as "unexplained" or found no evidence of a hoax! The articles are IN THE PUBLIC RECORD, so go DIG THEM UP!! In fact, one article I wrote (which I received nothing but widespread PRAISE for) was titled "A Comprehensive Review of UFO Motion Picture Films." The article listed dozens of motion picture films of alleged UFOs that have never been properly studied, and this sad state of affairs is still true today. I suggest my "critics" and the grossly-mistaken and noisy "Kal is a debunker" types, peruse this material. They will probably find it uncomfortable, because is DISPROVES what they believe, and VALIDATES what I have been saying ALL ALONG AND WHAT MY APPROACH AND STANCE REGARDING THE UFO SUBJECT IS. To date, I have had published more than 100 assorted articles and photographic materials in magazines around the world since I was in high school. By far, the MAJORITY of these have NOT been about Meier nor Roswell. Do your HOMEWORK folks!! Until you do, there's nothing to discuss, and you are VERY WRONG! Finally, the fact that my last two books have been "exposes" and have come out against an "extraterrestrial" verdict in Meier and Roswell, is really just a coincidence. As you all will see soon via my new WEB site and in upcoming media coverage, I have been very busy on LOTS of other fronts and a year from now I would not be surprised if everyone no longer "identifies" me with Meier and now, Roswell. I hope some of you "critics" will take a look at this material and modify your opinion(s) to fit the reality here. While I am perhaps best known in the UFO field for exposing Meier first and foremost, if this was the only contribution I had ever made to the UFO field to date, I would be sorely disappointed. Finally, the reason I continually talk about Meier is because I am ALWAYS ASKED ABOUT IT! I believe that as a writer and researcher, I am responsible for what I write for the rest of my life as a minimum. So, even 50 years from now if someone asks me about Meier I will tell them. I may prefer to discuss other topics, but I cannot and will not run from my responsibility to the public. I hope this helps put to "bed" this "debunker" non-issue that seems to fascinate a small but vocal few individuals. Sincerely yours, Kal K. Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 21 'MUFON' From: KAnder6444@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:26:43 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:17:33 -0400 Subject: 'MUFON' In a message directed to MUFONHQ a hodgepodge of people wrote: > Please cancel my membership to MUFON. >But most of all, I have a strong disdain for people who think >that they somehow have a license to control the Ufo Investigatory Area. >Mufon is certainly not qualified in any manner. I attended Mufon's >training program for so-called "UFO INVESTIGATOR". I bought two of >your investigator manuals. The manuals are so-so but a long way from >what is needed. Someone else added: >I joined MUFON & bought the "Field Investigators Manual" what a waste! >This is no way to run a serious investigation org. >I see them as just trying to be the "bigshots" in what they must surely >consider a media gameplan. This is about answers to the questions >involving UFO and support for those sighters or experiencers who >earnestly require it. 1. Your messages about not renewing your membership was directed to MUFONHQ@aol.com. I checked the AOL profile. I HIGHLY doubt that this is Walt Andrus or anyone else in Sequin, Texas. He rarely uses a computer and I don't believe he uses an Apple computer. I believe this entire MUFON badmouthing session was orchestrated by the convenience of alias name changes on AOL. I know this game, I have fallen for it previously. You know the story....change your name, write somesomething, change your name, answer yourself! >The training program was totally ridiculuous. I am a licensed >private investigator and know something about investigations. As a >past owner of an investigation company, I can honestly say that most >of the work I have seen conducted by Mufon Chapters in the >investigatory area is very poor. But you would have the public >believe that somehow Mufon International is the "Big Dog" of >investigations. Don't like being picked apart by one of your >ex-members? 1. I am a member of MUFON and am not a "Big Dog".I have not owned an investigation company but my ex-husband is a partner in one, if that counts! I am however, an ordinary person....excuse me.....woman who happens to love Ufology and like most others was persistent until someone gave me the position of MUFON State Section Director (Seattle). I do not have a Phd attached to my name. Yes, I did work as a reporter in newspaper and radio and business management at ABC Television, HOWEVER, this was not the reason I was appointed. My love for this UFO phenomena, my enthusiasm, my concern for people in general and finding an answer as to "what" is going on, did. 2. I might not always agree with Walt Andrus or the procedures that are recommended. Walt is just a regular kind of guy. He is someone's husband and someone's father. I think there is this misconception that he is a big "Pubah of the sky" that dictates how things have to be done. Wrong! He has set guidelines, period. He doesn't oversee every investigation. Most MUFON investigators are average ordinary people who have volunteered to find out what is going on. Like it or not, what Walt Andrus has done is keep together an organization for 28 years in the face of a lot of "hew haws" and criticism from the press and general public. Let's face it, all of us sometimes receive ridicule of some sort when talking about UFO's. Walt's exact words recently were "just present the facts, the rest will speak for itself". We all have to make our own personal conclusion as to what UFO's are and aren't. Who knows the right answer. >I think Mufon International should seriously re-evaluate what their >goals should be regarding a solution to the Ufo problem and consider >working with Dr. Greer and CSETI's effort. As I stated before Capt. Mike, I think some of us might be overlooking the fact that whatever "any" of us knows, the government already is one step in front of us. My outspoken comments about CSETI stem from my own personal experience and also that of a witness who was asked to testify in Washington. He was asked to turn over the rights to his story to CSETI. If you wish his email address I am sure he will be willing to tell you his side. >From all the feed back I have gotten from reseachers there is a very >real need of total restructure and replacement of staff at the top of >the chain. >Note: Your always welcome to join Skywatch International. Here >your always treated right...We are always looking for a few good >men and women.........Col. I've heard good things about Skywatch International. I think its nice to know that many organizations are taking an interest in what is going on. I also hope that any group would form some guidelines and be careful about investigations. This is serious business. Its not a game and there are some fragile minds in the public that are involved. I hope all the writers involved in the above comments, take the time to see the whole picture before passing judgement on an organization that has at least held it together after all these years. We are all in this together but alas, this is not a perfect world with a perfect organization. Thanks Kathleen Andersen MUFON State Section Director Seattle Washington
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 21 Re: Aliens are they real? From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:43:21 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:08:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Aliens are they real? >Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:36:58 -0500 (CDT) >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Aliens are they real? <snip> >I've recently been pondering the thought that the folks who really >should have UFO detectors are those who claim they're currently the >subjects of ongoing abductions by aliens. There are several folks >on the web who claim to have a long history of ongoing abductions, >and they seem like the perfect "guinea pigs" for testing such >equipment. I wonder if anyone has ever approached such folks about >a cooperative effort to develop sensitive equipment that could then >be provided at nominal charge to anyone who suspects they are being >abducted. These events often occur in the person's bedroom, which >would be an ideal environment to set up a controlled test. >For example, one could hook up a UFO detector to a video camera >aimed at the subject's bed, ... Weight sensors under bedposts, ... to record >changes in load during the night, such as when a person is taken >for awhile. That way abduction times and lengths could be recorded >and monitored. >Or how about having the potential abductee wear one of the same sort >of transmitters that minor criminals are sometimes made to wear by >the courts when they are put under "house arrest" in their own home. Abductees claim that they have been 'floated' or levitated and passed thru walls and closed windows. It would seem that aliens with a technology sufficient to do that could easily defeat a videocamera. Consequently, a negative result found on the video tape would not necessarily be convincing to all abductees, although it might persuade some that an abduction was partly or completely subjective. Joseph Polanik Trionic Research Institute http://www.trionica.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 21 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: Jeroen Jansen <edzmath@bart.nl> Date: Wed, 21 May 97 18:47:10 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:06:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context >From: TotlResrch@aol.com >Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 03:05:43 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Kal Korff to Don Allen <snip> Kal Korff wrote: >Dear Don, unless you are PSYCHIC my friend, or have somehow gained access to >my new book, you couldn't possibly know what's in it let alone dismiss it as >a "copy-cat" work. I find it interesting that you and everyone else so far >have BLATANTLY IGNORED those parts of the book that do constitute ORIGINAL >RESEARCH AND NEW REVELATIONS. Need I point them out?? >Don, if I did such a "sloppy research" job on the Meier case as you claim, >then perhaps you can "enlighten" us on two simple issues here: >1) My analysis of Meier's "Venus" photos. WHERE did I make a mistake here, >Don? My analysis of these images represents the first time ever that these >photos were studied (and published) in detail. PLEASE EXPLAIN where I erred >here, Don, and feel free to REFUTE and CORRECT my analysis if you will. >2) My analysis of Meier's photos of the "Pleiadian" craft "landed" on the >ground as shown in pages 156-157 of my book "Spaceships of the Pleiades: The >Billy Meier Story." Please, Don, REFUTE or EXPLAIN my "sloppy research" here >where I claim that these photos show a small model close to the camera. Kal, I certainly acknowledge the possibility that you may have found something here that's why I also want to look further into the matter of those landed UFO & Venus photos and some other photos in Chapter 5 of your 1995 book, but for doing that one need (a copy of) the complete and original Jacob Photo Binder so one is able to *independently verify* the claims made in your book and study the data in the Jacob photo binder. That's why I've send you a couple of time e-mails with a request of copying and sending me in the post the Jacob-UFO binder against compensation of the expenses.They apparently never arrived. And that's why I also try to reach you now by using this forum. So I would appreciate it very much if you would be so helpful to send me xerox copies of the complete original Jacob Binder . Since as far as I know you're the only person who does possess the Jacob Photo Binder from which most of those "smoking guns" presented in chapter 4 & 5 of your Meier book do originate I think more people might be interested in copies of the complete original Jacob Binder. So let me and others know what's your position is regarding the distributing copies of the Jacob photo binder! Jeroen Jansen.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 21 Re: South African UFO crashes? From: Jeroen Wierda <mj_1@thepentagon.com> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:56:59 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:50:05 -0400 Subject: Re: South African UFO crashes? >Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:58:27 +0200 >From: Jakes Louw <louwje@telkom.co.za> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: South African UFO crashes >I'm trying to get as much research material together as >possible relating to two incidents in the Southern Africa >region, namely: >1)The apparent crash and retrieval of a UFO in Botswana > in May 1989, after allegedly being knocked down by some > obscure weapon mounted on a Mirage jet fighter. >2) The apparent crash and retrieval of a UFO in Lesotho >in September 1995. Dear Jakes Louw, I have some articles on PUFORI about the Lesotho incident. I right now have about seven articles about that on PUFORI direct address: http://www.pufori.org/non_frames/lesotho_nf.htm Hope that is what you are interested in...:-) Jeroen Wierda President of Picard UFO Research International URL to PUFORI: http://www.pufori.org/ If I do not reply to mail addressed to me within 3 days, plz resend it. Postal address: Jeroen Wierda, PO Box 352, 5201 AJ 's-Hertogenbosch, the Netherlands Murphy's Law:"If something can go wrong, it will".
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 21 Brightest Gamma Ray Burst Pinpointed From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:30:46 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:30:46 -0400 Subject: Brightest Gamma Ray Burst Pinpointed Gamma Ray Burst was the Brightest .c The Associated Press LOS ANGELES (AP) - Astronomers have solved part of the mystery of gamma ray bursts by determining that one occurred billions of light-years outside the Milky Way and burned brighter than any object in the universe. The California Institute of Technology group is the first to pinpoint distance and brightness for one of astronomy's most enigmatic phenomena. ``This is certainly the discovery of the year in astronomy,'' said Bohdan Paczynski, a Princeton University astrophysics professor who termed the extragalactic finding ``spectacular.'' The gamma ray burst observed on May 8 blazed ``a billion-billion times brighter'' than the sun, said Caltech astronomy professor Shri Kulkarni. For 10 seconds, it was ``the reigning king or queen of the sky.'' The burst occurred about halfway across the universe, researcher Chuck Steidel said. Assuming the universe is about 15 billion light-years across, the burst was ``greater than 7 billion light-years away,'' he said. ``This is a puzzle that's been around for 25 years. We finally have evidence that at least some of these bursts are at great distances and are the most intense sources of radiation in the universe,'' said Mark Metzger, one of the lead researchers. The Caltech astronomers alerted colleagues through an International Astronomical Union circular. They'll submit the findings shortly to a peer-reviewed journal. Gamma rays are invisible to the naked eye but can be detected by scientific instruments. They have higher energies than all other forms of radiation, including X-rays. Gamma ray bursts were discovered more than 25 years ago by U.S. spy satellites trying to monitor Soviet compliance with a nuclear test ban treaty. They occur several times a day throughout the sky and can last anywhere from a few seconds to hundreds of seconds. Scientists have only speculated about their sources, and this discovery still doesn't shed light on their origin. The burst earlier this month was first detected by the Italian-Dutch BeppoSAX, a satellite with X-ray and gamma ray detectors launched last year. Within hours, the Caltech researchers began observations of visible light features resulting from the burst, using telescopes at the Palomar Observatory in San Diego County. They found a bright, star-like object that ``appeared from nowhere'' and was gradually fading away. When they used one of the ultra-powerful telescopes Sunday at the Keck Observatory in Hawaii, they found small intergalactic gas clouds had absorbed light from the fading object, which turned out to be ``the glowing remains of the gamma ray burst,'' Kulkani said. Then, based on how fast the gas cloud was moving away from Earth, they calculated the distance from the Earth of the burst. Those calculations helped them arrive at the object's true brightness. 5/14/97 ========================================== Astronomers Pinpoint Bursts .c The Associated Press AP Science Editor NEW YORK (AP) - Top-secret military satellites first detected them 30 years ago - powerful bursts of energy that lit up the sky, shining like beacons for a few moments before mysteriously disappearing. Nobody knew what they were. For a few years, the government tried to keep them secret. Some suggested that the bursts, invisible to the naked eye, were signals from distant civilizations. This is not the plot of next week's ``X-Files.'' It is the history of gamma ray bursts, brief flashes of radiation billions of times brighter than the sun that could unlock basic mysteries like the age, size and fate of the universe. For more than 25 years the gamma ray bursts have vexed astronomers, unpredictably popping into and out of existence like the Cheshire cat's smile, almost always outshining every other object in the sky. Until this month, that was about all anybody could say about them. But after a quarter-century of head scratching, California Institute of Technology astronomers have finally brought some hard facts to bear on the bursts. In a brief distributed by the International Astronomical Union on May 11, Cal Tech researchers showed that at least one gamma ray burst was much too distant to have originated within our galaxy. ``We finally caught one,'' said Cal Tech astronomy professor Mark Metzger. ``Now that we've pinpointed the distance, things can progress forward.'' By combining observations made with a host of instruments over several days, the 10 astronomers demonstrated that a gamma ray burst seen May 8 was at least 7 billion light-years distant. That's quite a distance considering the the entire universe is about 15 billion light-years across. ``This is a real breakthrough,'' said NASA astronomer Gerald Fishman. ``It sort of opens a new era.'' The details are somewhat difficult to understand, but the implications could be immense. Before the bursts answer any questions about the universe, astronomers will first have to figure out what's making the gamma rays burst. It's likely that the bursts have something to do with the most massive celestial objects around - neutron stars and black holes. For example, some theorists have proposed that gamma ray bursts are produced when two dense neutron stars smash into one another, releasing as much energy in a few seconds as the sun will during its entire lifetime. Or perhaps they're created when a massive black hole swallows up a neutron star. Then again, gamma ray bursts could come from some exotic cosmic phenomenon nobody knows about yet. ``This might be something really spectacular, something really new,'' said Bohdan Paczynski, a Princeton University astrophysicist and one of the leaders in the field. The Cal Tech research wouldn't have been possible without BeppoSAX, a European satellite with X-ray and gamma ray detectors. BeppoSAX can pick up the bursts and it radios their precise locations to Earth. Astronomers can then look for visible objects at the same spots. ``I was pretty thrilled, but at the same time eager,'' Metzger said. ``We should understand even the physical mechanism pretty soon.'' 05-19-97 ---------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 22 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:40:47 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:11:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context >From: TotlResrch@aol.com >Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:27:19 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Subject: Kevin Randle Gets it Wrong #1 & 2 >From: Kal K. Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Kevin Randle Gets it Wrong #1 & 2 >In a recent postings, pro-UFO Roswell author Kevin Randle has >cited examples of where he claims my new book on Roswell, "The >Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want You to Know", is in >error. Because of time limitations due to my hectic schedule, I >shall address only two of Randle's false claims today, and deal >with the rest of them over a series of postings throughout the >next few days. Here goes: >><snip> I [Kevin Randle] have said that our files, notes, and >>audio tapes are available for review at the CUFOS. Korff reports >>this isn't true, but Korff never even called CUFOS to learn the >>truth. Instead, he repeats what Robert Todd has said about it. >To which Kal Korff responds: >Kevin, unless you are psychic, which you are NOT, THERE'S NO WAY >YOU CAN KNOW THAT I "NEVER EVEN CALLED CUFOS". The TRUTH of the >matter is that I DID telephone CUFOS and have had for sometime >now more than one source within the organization who does work >for me, as well as others. Well, I'm just telling you what the people at CUFOS told me. When Phil Klass made a similar request to CUFOS, they told him to come to Chicago to take a look. I then called Phil and suggested that if there is anything else that he needs to please let me know and he could go through my files at my house as well. So, Kal, I have attempted to make everything in my possession available for scrutiny to other researchers, even 'the dreaded Philip Klass. You never asked me for the stuff, now did you? >It was shortly after this time, Kevin, that I first learned that >some of the key, critical material you CLAIM is on file at CUFOS >simply isn't. In fact, Kevin, I CHALLENGE you to produce these >items and others that people like Fred Whiting of the Fund for >UFO Research and Stanton Friedman have been on your case to "pony >up" for years now! If you would like me to, Kevin, I shall be >happy to post to this forum Fred Whiting's list of items, just in >case you've "forgotten" or care to "blame" your co-author, Don >Schmitt, for the sudden "unavailability" of this material. This was supposed to be a two way street with all of us sharing information. Stan Friedman never supplied anything that I asked for while demanding everything I had. In fact, some of it appeared in his book with neither credit nor attribution. Why should I give him anything if he is not going to cooperation and return the favor. And, I have no control over Don Schmitt and what he does or doesn't do. >Speaking of Don Schmitt >Kevin, you have a convenient scapegoat in Donald Schmitt in that >you have and DO blame him for several of the errors in your >Roswell books. You'd like us to believe that you're made of some >sort of Teflon and that nothing's YOUR fault. This really is a cheap shot. >IF you are truthful with us, Kevin, and are willing to play it as >STRAIGHT as you claim, then producing this list would not only be >a great service to the field of UFOlogy, but will finally extract >you from the tar and abyss of Schmitt's fall from grace in this >field because of his false claims about his background - which >you NEVER noticed anyway until it was too late! Now, why should I have known that he was a postal employee? I live 350 miles from me. When I meet someone, I don't ask them if they are really postal employees. He said he was a medical illustrator and I had no reason to doubt. >Regarding Major Jesse Marcel, Kevin Randle wrote: > <snip> >Korff notes that Marcel, according to the interview he gave to >Bob Pratt said he had a Bachelor's degree. But, in the original >transcript, the bachelors is in parens suggesting that it was a >comment by PRATT and not MARCEL. Korff apparently used, not the >original transcript, but the transcript as published by Karl >Pflock in which Pflock made alterations in an attempt (I think >honest attempt) to make it clearer. By doing so, he [Pflock] >actually changed the meaning. Yeah, this is subtle, but gees, the >guy (Korff) should be more careful <before he starts hurling >allegations. >To which Kal Korff responds: >Kevin, it is too bad that you somehow managed to bungle your own >point here. Let us take a look now at Marcel's OWN words from the >very transcript by Karl Pflock that you so gleefully cite to >settle this issue, shall we? Here is what Marcel said: >"Marcel: Right. [I've been] around the world five times, been in >sixty-eight countries. [I have] a degree in nuclear physics, >bachelor's, at -- completed work at George Washington University >in Washington, [D.C.]. [I] attended LSU Louisiana State >University]. Huston, University of Wisconsin, New York >University, Ohio State, [unintelligible--Pratt], and GW." >Kevin, I have retyped this transcript EXACTLY as Pflock prints it >in his book. Notice that Marcel's claim about having a >"Bachelor's" degree is NOT in "parens" as you claim. Furthermore, >like many pro-UFO Roswell buffs, Kevin, you conveniently IGNORE >the fact that despite the long list cited by Marcel as to where >he CLAIMS he attended various universities, a simple check by >anyone wishing to do so over the telephone easily establishes >that Marcel did NOT attend all of the institutions he claims -- >nor did he "complete[d] work at George Washington University. In >fact, according to George Washington University, Marcel NEVER >enrolled at the facility!! Thank you for proving my point for me. Pflock changed the manuscript. The Pratt interview says, "right...around the world 5 times, been in 68 countries...degree in nuclear physics (bachelors) at completed work at GW Univ inWash. attended (LSU, Houston, U of Wis, NY Univ, Ohio, docotr pool? and GW..." Retyped here exactly as it appears in the ORIGINAL document and not the version printed by Karl. I asked you a simple question a long time ago. In what branch of the military did you serve? KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 22 Re: Abudction report information From: afoos@fpcc.cc.mt.us (Alan R. Foos) Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:22:02 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:02:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Abudction report information I'm one of those who takes the alien abduction/implant subject seriously. I'm not too concerned with the ordinary abduction scenario or UFO sighting, as I don't need to be convinced. What I am concerned about is any practical information regarding the "alien" (or whatever it is) behaviors, particularly physical or technological limitations. I'd like to construct in as much detail as possible a profile of the "grey." The implants also interest me. Whatever information is available on how they function, what their purpose is, etc. Obviously, few people take the subject seriously, whereas if it is real, every possible effort should be made to understand it. Al afoos@fpcc.cc.mt.us
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 22 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: KRandle993@aol.com [Kevin Randle] Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:01:26 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:11:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context >From: Kal K. Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com> >Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:27:19 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Subject: Kevin Randle Gets it Wrong #1 & 2 >I would like for you, Kevin, to POST TO THIS FORUM, ALL >OF THE ADMITTED ERRORS AND MISTAKES YOU KNOW OF IN YOUR >BOOK "THE TRUTH ABOUT THE UFO CRASH AT ROSWELL" and then >in this list, CITE THE SPECIFIC ERRORS AND MISTAKES that >YOU claim are "Don Schmitt's fault." You, know, this is really a loaded question. And isn't this something you should have done BEFORE you started slinging allegations all over the free world? I mean, you pick up the nonsense about the 38 false claims of Kevin Randle as alleged by Stan Friedman, suggesting there are no innocent answers to them, but seem to have avoided my response to them, as published in the MUFON JOURNAL. And that originally, I hadn't made them all myself, but Don Schmitt had a hand in them. How did we move from 38 false claims of Randle and Schmitt to 38 false claims of Kevin Randle. Hell, I didn't even make some of the claims. But, to your loaded question. I find the testimony of Glenn Dennis to be suspect, as I printed in my latest book, THE RANDLE REPORT (Hell, everyone else is promoting his or her work, why shouldn't I?) And, I don't think much of the Jim Ragsdale report thanks to Max Littell and the boys at the Intern'l UFO Museum. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 22 Huge UFO Over Ireland From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 01:15:13 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:05:34 -0400 Subject: Huge UFO Over Ireland Received this as "Re(8): Huge UFO Over Ireland" May 21 at 07.15 CET from "alt.alien.visitors". The message was sent by Hans Rosenthal alias "rosen@areatech.org": _________________________________________ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:15:28 -0500 From: Hans Rosenthal <rosen@areatech.org> Subject: Huge UFO Over Ireland Message-ID: <33829300.2A07@areatech.org> Yesterday I got a phone call from my mother who lives in Ireland telling me about a number of triangle shaped craft of huge size flying over the northwest coast of Ireland. Three gigantic craft were see approching Sligo Bay in the middle of the afternoon by dozens of hill climbers near the summet of Mount Ben Bulben. The came in across the bay and alongside the mountain. The hitchikers, and people who live on the side of the mountain were able to look down on the craft from above. Everybody said the triangle craft had no featers or markings on the top on them. Cows and sheep on the slope of the mountain were seen running in all directions and in great panic. The craft made no sound and moved very slowly. At one point they passed directly over the grave of the poet W. B. Yeats in Drumcliff churchyard. Cars were stopping by the side of the road as drivers got out to look at the three craft. My mother said that all at once the craft dissapered. Within an hour Irish Police and Army helicopters were all over the place. The major Irish newsmedia did not report ths story only the small local papers. I will give you more info whan I get it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 22 Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:24:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 07:06:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? [Greg started my day with a large smile - merci --ebk] I've been busy with nonsense having nothing to do with UFOs, but I can't resist a comment on.... > From: EdKomarek@aol.com > Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 21:59:26 -0400 (EDT) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Debunker Containment Strategy? > I would like to see a book written exploring the >interactions and relationships between such debunkers as >Karl Pflock, Karl Korff, Col. Weaver, Phil Klass, James >Oberg, Carl Sagan, Donald Menzel etc. I would also like >to see investigations of CSICOP and the tabloid press >particulary the Weekly World News. Now, I don't claim to be an expert on this laundry list of UFO enemies, but I do know a thing or two about the Weekly World News. I wrote a feature on it, got to know the editors, and even worked there for a week. I'm sure most of us know the tabloid. It's the one in garish black and white, with cover stories like "Alien Backs Clinton," "Two-Headed Woman Has Two-Headed Baby," and "Woman Eaten By Fur Coat." This last, I think, was their best ever. A woman checked into an inn somewhere in Rumania, I believe, wearing an expensive mink. The next morning her body was found, badly chewed, the coat was missing -- and there were traces of mink saliva in the victim's wounds! No, wait...I'm appalled...my idols at the News are guilty of sloppy thinking. How do we know that Rumanian minks didn't attack the woman at the inn, take revenge for the wanton slaughter of their comrades, and liberate the coat, so as it give it a proper burial? Damn. Another illusion shattered. The Weekly World News, for those who want to know the true story, is owned the by National Enquirer. Many years ago, the Enquirer was a truly trashy tabloid, printed in black and white and running stories about weird and paranormal events, alongside (I think -- I wasn't reading it then) celebrity gossip. It also did some reasonably reputably UFO reporting, probably on the theory that its readers wouldn't know the difference, so why not give it a shot? But then came a push for fame, and, more than anything else, I'm sure, fortune, and the Enquirer went respectable. It purchased color presses, conceived a plan to elevate itself by concentrating on celebrities, and conceived the News mainly as a way to keep making money from the old black and white presses, which were still around, and might as well be put to use. The result, from the Enquirer's point of view, is the eminence it enjoys today. We, as we ponder the mystery of alien tunnels under Dulce, New Mexico, may scoff, but the Equirer is not only rich, but respected in journalistic circles for the unfailing accuracy of its celebrity dirt, something the mainstream press finally admitted after the O.J. Simpson trial, during the many months of which the New York Times and the Washington Post found themselves on the same beat as the Enquirer, and had to publicly admit that the Enquirer did it better. (The Enquirer did miss the boat with the delicious new Frank and Kathie Lee Gifford scandal, but nobody's perfect.) Meanwhile, sitting off in a corner of the Enquirer's building in Lantana, FL (a low-rent neighbor of Palm Beach), are the 20-odd folks who put out the Weekly World News, good souls who've learned to grin and bear it when Enquirer staffers pass by, holding their noses to ward off the disreputable stench. After all, as one Enquirer stalwart said to me, with disdain in her voice, "They don't check their stories!" Don't check them? Hell, as you'd think the whole world knew by now, they make them up, except for a few that they actually do go out and report, or rehash from wire services. These are mostly about gore or sentiment -- human bones found in a bus station locker, let's say, or a Texas cowboy buried, as he'd wished, with his boots on. You can always tell which stories these are. Just compare the bylines with the WWN masthead. If the writer is listed, the story is true, or at least as true as anything you'd read in a mainstream newspaper. If the writer can't be found, then the story is fiction -- or "freelance," as the expression goes at the WWN, the conceit being that the really juicy items are submitted by freelance correspondents, and the reality, of course, being that "freelance" is office shorthand for "fictional." So who runs this operation? The higher-level staff -- writers and editors (as of three years or so ago) -- fell into two main categories. Good ol' boys from southern newspapers, some continuing at the WWN after retirement, and educated northern types who somehow fell off the journalistic career ladder, and ended up in Lantana. The top two editors reflected these two types very neatly. Eddie Klontz, the editor in chief (and does he ever want you to feel his authority!) speaks in the buttery tones of North Carolina, except when he barks orders across the office. When I first met him, he refused to use a computer, sporting proudly instead a Remington typewriter that looked like it had been through World War II -- in the trenches! You can find a self-caricuture of Eddie in the raving rightwing "Ed Anger" column, which Eddie writes. Sal Ivone, the managing editor, is from Brooklyn, NY, and -- when I first visited his apartment in South Palm Beach -- had a copy of Foreign Affairs magazine on his coffee table, right next to the latest issue of the WWN (a pairing I'd think isn't very commonly duplicated, except possibly in my own place). Sal has a serious streak to match Eddie's manic wildness, and got very concerned, when I first met him, when I told him I was interested in UFOs. I could see from the dubious look in his eye what he was thinking -- "This nutjob believes what we write, and that's why he came down from New York to write about us!" I laughed, and assured him this wasn't the case, and from then on we got along just fine. (Especially when the bartender at the Ritz Carlton in Palm Beach, where we happened to be, started telling us about his own fairly serious UFO sighting, which fascinated Sal as much as it fascinated me.) But I digress. Life at the WWN is often entertaining, at least when Eddie isn't on a tear. You can't help but giggle when you see Sal and a couple of other grown or semi-grown men bending over a computer-concocted picture of a dinosaur on a Nevada highway, trying to decide whether the beast should be moved a little further to the right. When I worked there -- an adventure cooked up by Sal and Eddie, who suggested I take a vacation working for them, and not only paid me, but gave me a room at their favorite hangout, a motel right on the beach, and a (tiny) rental car, as part of the deal -- I'd find Eddie ordering all the writers to come up with "five freelance shorts" by the end of the afternoon. A "freelance short" was WWN jargon for a made-up story one to four sentences long, the more outrageous the better. One day a woman named Susan, tall and weathered (though she swore revenge when I used this word about her in print), got on a roll, and kept announcing things like: "I think I'm going to say that yodeling is an aphrodisiac. I'll cite research by Swiss scientists!" The Swiss scientists, though, were more than local color in a story like that. As I quickly learned, one semi-official rule at the WWN was that really wacko scientific stuff had to be credited to researchers abroad, in a country where English isn't the native languages, so readers couldn't easily check the stories. So, when I came up with an item about a little girl who could read two books at once, one from each eye, I made her Bulgarian. That allowed me to bring in a scientist from the university in Sofia, who could speculate that the eager little scholar might have two brains. Nor was the disdainful staffer from the Enquirer quite right when she said the WWN doesn't check its stories. As I learned, the News practices a kind of anti-fact checking. Often, writers are given headlines, and asked to invent the story. One day I was given something about tourists seeing the ghost of the Birdman of Alcatraz. As I began sketching in details, the tourists acquired names and a home town -- Walter and Debbie Zazeela, of Macon, Georgia. Before the editors signed off on the story, I had to call directory assistance in Macon, to determine that no such people were actually listed! I also learned that even the WWN has limits. In my Alcatraz story, I had Walter or Debbie (can't remember which) say that they knew the ghost they saw was the Birdman, because he looked just like Burt Lancaster in the movie. That got blue-penciled, on the grounds that it was just too silly. So did my comment, in a story headlined "Hubble Space Telescope Discovers Twin Earth," that this other planet resembled ours in absolutely every detail, except that Rush Limbaugh was president. High spirits are allowed, but you're supposed to write the stories the way you would at a real newspaper, if the stories were really true. You're not allowed to stray over the edge into outright parody. The readers, I found, mirrored the staff. Many come from the less educated, more rural parts of the country, and write letters to the News in pencil, on lined paper. Others are hip college kids, who read the paper for laughs, and write in just as enthusiastically when the WWN asks readers to help locate an escaped creature who's half bat, half human. The difference is that the college kids type their letters, and don't believe what they're writing. What amazed me most, though, were the sackfuls of mail that arrived each week for the WWN's psychic, whose column was in fact written by Eddie Clontz's brother Derek, the paper's third in command. Derek boldly told readers exactly how to solve their problems -- "Your lost bracelet is in the third drawer on the right of your bureau, under the socks." And still the readers wrote in avidly, never once complaining, he swore to me, that his advice had proved false. But now for the meat of my invesitgation. What's the relation between the WWN and the government? It would be a mistake, I must firmly insist, to say that it doesn't have any government relationships. Quite the contrary! During the 1992 presidential campaign, the WWN ran stories about an alien that met with each candidate, and finally (with an unerring instinct about which way the American people were leaning) supported Clinton. Each of the three candidates commented publicly on these tales. After the election, the News declared that five senators were space aliens, named them -- and got real, on the record answers from each of their offices! ("Only five? The real total is MUCH higher!") Not only that, but Sal used to tell me, shaking his head in dismay, that the FBI used to call from time to time, objecting to having its name taken in vain in WWN stories. ("How can you say we were involved in an investigation of a werewolf in Alabama? We demand that you stop!") "Don't they have anything better to do?" Sal would say, dumbstruck with amazement. Ah, but is the WWN underwritten by counterintelligence slush funds? Here we get onto highly speculative terrain, to say the least, but I will rush out on a fragile limb and take a wild guess that the paper receives no such support. When I wrote my feature on the enterprise, and had to look into such tedious details as circulation and profitability, I got every sense -- especially when I talked to a high executive of the Enquirer -- that the WWN was purely a business proposition, expected to pull its own weight, and not always doing so, at least not to the Enquirer's specifications. Like every mainstream publication I've ever known about, the WWN's newstand sales are meticulously tabulated, and attmepts are made to figure out which cover stories tend to sell. Hence all the repeats -- the space alien with each of the candidates -- though everyone would grumble that the followups never sold as well as the original did. From all of this I emerged with the definite notion of an operation conducted with an eye -- sometimes a worried eye -- firmly on the bottom line. If CIA money is being funnelled in, it's happening at a level higher than the Enquirer's chief financial guy. Besides, you'd think an intellgence operation would do a better job. I went through the photo files one day, and found the outtakes from the alien/president photo shoots. What a pathetic alien -- you could see, in half the shots, flagrant cracks in the papier mache. Similarly, I doubt that intelligence agencies influence the paper's content. They'd hardly have to; as I've said, on a good day, the staff has an uproarious time thinking these things up. Besides, if the stories in the News are subtly shaded by government agencies, someone forgot to tell the FBI. Such luxury....to take an hour out of a busy day to tell stories about the Weekly World News. And there's more...the piles and piles of mail from people who thought they'd seen Elvis, heartlessly destroyed when they should have been donated to a folklore archive...the soldier who wrote to the two-headed woman on the WWN's cover, quite seriously proposing marriage...I hope, though, that I've shed some light on a matter of at least minor importance to ufology. And maybe now Ed Komarek can sleep a little easier. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 22 Roswell: 'Lie' Detection? From: Scott Hale <shale@megalinx.net> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:39:51 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:27:26 -0400 Subject: Roswell: 'Lie' Detection? All, I was letting the cogs in my brain turn again and started thinking about some of the major Roswell witnesses. It would be interesting if we could get a Polygraph session set up with a few of them. The funding could be done through FUFOR or another group. Witnesses I was thinking of are: Jesse Marcel Jr. Frank Kaufmann Glenn Dennis Sheridan Cavitt What do you guys think? Regards, Scott K. Hale
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 22 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:26:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context >From: TotlResrch@aol.com >Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 03:05:43 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Kal Korff to Don Allen >Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:25:10 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Don Allen <dona@totcon.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context If I may, I would like to inject some thoughts into this open exchange between Korff and Don Allen. Korff wrote: > Don, if I did such a "sloppy research" job on the Meier case as > you claim, then perhaps you can "enlighten" us on two simple issues > here: 1) My analysis of Meier's "Venus" photos. WHERE did I make a > mistake here, Don? My analysis of these images represents the first time > ever that these photos were studied (and published) in detail. PLEASE > EXPLAIN where I erred here, Don, and feel free to REFUTE and CORRECT > my analysis if you will. Where I see a huge mistake having been made is in assuming that what ETs show a contactee or abductee through one of their view screens or view ports within a UFO is necessarily what was really out there. Why should a ufologist assume that aliens are never deceptive? Most of us who have been in this business as long as even 15 years know that it can be no accident that the aliens who pilot their UFOs have never once in the past 50 years exposed their craft to a sufficient number of witnesses for a sufficient length of time in the same place so as to bring about a sudden realization on the part of the general public that they are actually here and aware of us. (If this were to occur even now, I feel it would still bring about mass panic and chaos.) Out of several hundred thousand screened sightings, this has never happened. It means that the aliens are intelligent and have a strategy of dealing with us. The evidence points strongly to this strategy involving, among other things, covertness, deception and feeding contactees/abductees a certain amount of disinformation at times, so as to provide deniability to negative skeptics whose belief systems can't accept the reality of it. I'm afraid this includes some "ufologists," who don't wish to admit that aliens are smarter than we are and hold all the trump cards. It's a robust strategy, since a negative skeptic can be informed of this and still not believe it if his/her mindset is so inclined. It's also an ethical strategy -- to show regard for people's free will, including large numbers of negative skeptics. Haven't we all heard of some abductees having been shown things on viewing screens during their time aboard? Often scenes of catastrophic earth changes to occur in the future? Well, that doesn't mean that the ufologist has to accept that what the abductee was shown was necessarily the truth. (But it does make some of us ponder about it.) So Meier's aliens could very easily have presented him with a couple of NASA's Mariner 10 Venus photos on their viewing ports for him to photograph during his space trip. This supplies Korff and others with needed deniability, provided they are willing to ignore all the positive elements supporting the genuineness of the Meier case. This includes not only the 25 or so named supportive witnesses, and the movie film, but all those photos that show the haze effect very well upon the UFO craft, not to mention the ones showing the craft on the far side of an abies alba tree that could not have been any model tree. If none of this and other supportive evidence existed, *then* we'd suspect hoax, too. But how can a UFO investigator who is unaware of alien strategy *and* who ignores the supportive evidence in a case expect to be regarded seriously? >2) My analysis of Meier's photos of the "Pleiadian" craft "landed" on the >ground as shown in pages 156-157 of my book "Spaceships of the Pleiades: >The Billy Meier Story." Please, Don, REFUTE or EXPLAIN my "sloppy >research" here where I claim that these photos show a small model >close to the camera. There are some of us who are still waiting for an admission by Korff that the upward-curved brush-like arc that extends to nowhere on the photo "enhancement" on his p. 198 bears no resemblance to a support line for a model UFO or for any other suspended weight. The same applies to the intersecting quasi-horizontal brush-like marks on his "enhancement" on p. 200, and the line segment with 6 arrows pointing to it on his p. 207. Such scratches were not present on any of the many 2nd-generation photo materials inspected carefully by Wendelle Stevens and Jim Dilettoso, who had incentive to treat their photos very carefully. After this admission then one could perhaps move on to discussion of the photos in Korff's book on pp. 156-157. Jim Deardorff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 22 Re: Aliens are they real? From: ad897@freenet.durham.org (John Koopmans) Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:34:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Aliens are they real? > Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:36:58 -0500 (CDT) > From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: Aliens are they real? > I've recently been pondering the thought that the folks who really > should have UFO detectors are those who claim they're currently the > subjects of ongoing abductions by aliens. There are several folks > on the web who claim to have a long history of ongoing abductions, > and they seem like the perfect "guinea pigs" for testing such > equipment. I wonder if anyone has ever approached such folks about > a cooperative effort to develop sensitive equipment that could then > be provided at nominal charge to anyone who suspects they are being > abducted. These events often occur in the person's bedroom, which > would be an ideal environment to set up a controlled test. <snip> > I've had various other ideas for monitoring and/or interfering with > alleged abductions from bedrooms - some electrical and some > mechanical. Weight sensors under bedposts, for instance, to record > changes in load during the night, such as when a person is taken > for awhile. That way abduction times and lengths could be recorded > and monitored. > Or how about having the potential abductee wear one of the same sort > of transmitters that minor criminals are sometimes made to wear by > the courts when they are put under "house arrest" in their own home. > If the person gets out of range of the base unit (as in an abduction), > the base unit no longer picks up the transmitter and automatically > notifies a remote sight (the police, in the case of criminals). > There must be dozens of ways to monitor all these alleged abductees > and establish some solid evidence if something is happening. It > surprises me that nobody has taken the steps to do it. Maybe > selling various sorts of UFO detectors and abductee monitoring > equipment would make a nifty little niche mail-order business for > someone nuts enough to take it on and establish a relevant web page > advertising the rather "one of a kind" product line to the right > target groups. I know several abductees, and most of them have already had more than enough tampering with their lives, without having to wear, or be surrounded with these gadgets. They don't need more proof - they've already had more than they can handle. Also, the abductions don't necessary happen on a regular or predictable schedule. It could be months or even years between abduction experiences. That is an unacceptable length of time to be surrounded by these gadgets. One of the abductees did try out some electronic equipment for a few weeks but, obviously no experiences occurred during that short time. It has even been said that abductions won't occur while monitoring equipment is around. The equipment was very invasive to the abductee's normal life habits. It is too much to expect these people to be "guinea pigs". They really do want to get on with a normal life. I think that it's time that we treat abductees with respect and dignity, and not like "guinea pigs" wearing equipment that "criminals" wear! If they wish to volunteer, then that should be up to them, and we should feel honoured by their sacrifice. John Koopmans
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 22 Re: Abduction report information From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 01:24:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:42:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction report information > From: afoos@fpcc.cc.mt.us (Alan R. Foos) > To: "Errol Bruce-Knapp" <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Abudction report information > Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:22:02 -0600 > I'm one of those who takes the alien abduction/implant subject seriously. > I'm not too concerned with the ordinary abduction scenario or UFO sighting, > as I don't need to be convinced. What I am concerned about is any > practical information regarding the "alien" (or whatever it is) behaviors, > particularly physical or technological limitations. I'd like to construct > in as much detail as possible a profile of the "grey." The implants also > interest me. Whatever information is available on how they function, what > their purpose is, etc. > Obviously, few people take the subject seriously, whereas if it is real, > every possible effort should be made to understand it. > Al > afoos@fpcc.cc.mt.us You might find James M. McCampbell's book a good starting place. Its an excellent compendium of the information that seems to be of interest to you. Although its almost 21 years old - you ought to know who has gone before you... Ufology James M. McCampbell 1976, Celestial Arts 231 Adrian Road Millbrae, CA 94030 ISBN: 0-89087-144-2 Hope its helpful. Gary Alevy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 22 Bogus Social Workers? From: "R.Bull" <RAB@cadcentre.co.uk> Date: Thu, 22 May 97 10:18:00 PDT Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:20:10 -0400 Subject: Bogus Social Workers? Hi everyone. As part of a research project I'm doing for BUFORA on Men In Black, I've started wondering about Bogus Social Workers, as being a sort of 1990s Female In Black (FIB, not that MIBs have gone away). I've not researched this yet, but I think they are a fairly recent phenomenon (the earliest reference I've seen is Fortean Times issue 57, spring 1991, Mike Dash). With a lot in the press (in the UK at least) about alleged child abuse (Orkney Isles case, and others) and related stories about social workers not doing their job, could people's fears about nuclear annihilation now be replaced by fears for their children? Women's fears anyway, BSWs are almost always female and they almost always visit mothers, not fathers. Could the BSWs (who never show credentials, and who always flee when asked for them) be some kind of projection of these fears? I've only read about UK cases. Do BSWs exist worldwide? ('social workers' may be called other things in other countries of course - 'community health workers' ? 'welfare support workers' ? I'm guessing). Thanks for any thoughts or hard info that you may have. Rob Bull
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 22 Re: Astronauts & UFO Pictures From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:31:21 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:21:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Astronauts & UFO Pictures >Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 03:39:31 -0400 >From: Werner Walter <106156.3630@compuserve.com> >Subject: Astronauts-UFO-pictures >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Hi all, >here is Werner Walter from the german UFO-network CENAP which was founded >in 1976. I hope to get find help from anyone on the list. Last year going >"new" american astronauts UFO-pictures around. Since then I try to get the >full story behind this material and a set of full-view-pictures of this >material. Who can help in this matter??? >Werner Hello and welcome to the list Werner positively the best site for getting pictures from NASA has got to be http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html Which is called..Astronomy Picture of the Day Archive I have found this to most valuable when searching for some pictures. In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible. Sean Jones http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 22 Re: Huge UFO Over Ireland From: Joe McNally <fortean3@easynet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:13:27 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:13:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Huge UFO Over Ireland Forwarded from one of Fortean Times' Irish contacts, Daev Walsh: >Well, it appears that Mr. Rosenthal's email address is a fake. >areatech.org doesnn't even exist. >UNIX(r) System V Release 4.0 (fringeware.com) >login: daev >Password: >Last login: Wed May 21 10:34:02 from 194.106.137.182 >fw> whois areatech.org >No match for "AREATECH.ORG". >The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information >(Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's). >Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information. >fw> >>Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:44:42 +0100 (BST) >>From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@ook.connect.ie> >>Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: areatech.org: host not >found) >>To: <daev@Fringeware.COM> >>Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure) >>The original message was received at Thu, 22 May 1997 11:44:41 +0100 (BST) >>from [194.106.137.182] >> ----- The following addresses have delivery notifications ----- >><rosen@areatech.org> (unrecoverable error) >> ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >>550 <rosen@areatech.org>... Host unknown (Name server: areatech.org: host >not found) >>Reporting-MTA: dns; ook.connect.ie >>Received-From-MTA: dns; [194.106.137.182] >>Arrival-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:44:41 +0100 (BST) >>Final-Recipient: rfc822; rosen@areatech.org >>Action: failed >>Status: 5.1.2 >>Remote-MTA: dns; areatech.org >>Last-Attempt-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:44:42 +0100 (BST) >>Return-Path: daev@fringeware.com >>Received: from mimas ([194.106.137.182]) by ook.connect.ie (8.7.5/3.1337) >with SMTP id LAA08474 for <rosen@areatech.org>; Thu, 22 May 1997 11:44:41 >+0100 (BST) >>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970522114240.00915e30@mail.connect.ie> >>X-Sender: hellshaw@mail.connect.ie >>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) >>Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:42:43 +0100 >>To: rosen@areatech.org >>From: daev <daev@fringeware.com> >>Subject: Huge UFO Over Ireland >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ----- Nothing in this post is necessarily the opinion of John Brown Publishing or Fortean Times. On a bad day, it might not even be mine. ----- "I knew then who had brought me to the Greys. The voice said, 'These are the beings whom you want to help.' It was the voice of my Aunt Elsie." - Courtney Brown, "Cosmic Voyage"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 22 UFOSEARCH - The Roswell Films -- From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 01:00:55 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:37:01 -0400 Subject: UFOSEARCH - The Roswell Films -- I will be posting to UFO UpDates, serially, a group of essays I have found to be thought provoking, which ask many questions that other writers in the ufo field avoid. Several of these essays were posted in the past in the alt.paranet.ufo USENET newsgroup. There are approximately 25 essays in all. I am posting these with the authors permission. If you would like to correspond with the author, unfortunately he is not presently available on the Internet; however, I have arranged a temporary internet email address that I will use for forwarding the correspondence to him. This is not a permanent email address. The address is: ufosearch@pipeline.com I hope you find these essays as interesting and thought provoking as I did. Gary Alevy ********************************************************************** The Roswell Films -- Counterintelligence Aspects Val Germann Columbia, Missouri Let's lead off with something I wrote several years ago for my own use in investigating and thinking about UFO-related items: The Hierarchy Of Information A Guide To Evaluating The Modern World by Val Germann As we all know there are immense difficulties concerned with the study of events and processes in the modern world. The UFO is just part of the problem. Censorship of important news reached unprecedented heights with Panama and the Gulf War. In the world of the UFO there has been a flood of "secret" and "inside" information in the late 1980s and running into the 1990s, most of it without any formal "verification." But then the Gulf of Tonkin affair was "verified" by the highest authority in the land--and it was a lie. What information is worthy of being accepted? How can one go about evaluating "new information" about the UFO in the world of 1993? Well, I have been down the learning curve on this one and think I have something to share. The investigator has to possess a sort of internal gyroscope, based on solid knowledge, or that investigator will be lost. Information has to be classified and compared to other information and to a model of the world that the investigator has constructed. This is not an easy task. What follows is, in a nutshell, my hierarchy of information. Because this writer is a witness to a UFO the hierarchy begins with the individual and works outward. We think this will be very, very useful to many readers as they attempt to make sense of the cacophony that now dominates the "UFO scene" in America. A Hierarchy Of Information Class I: Personal experience involving physical injury, pain and blood. One's life eventually revolves around physical injury or disability. This writer can remember injuries suffered as a very small child. Class II: Personal experience involving unusual sight, sound or touch. If these experiences are not so out of the ordinary as to create doubts about the individual's own sanity they are indelibly etched into the mind. An example of this might be a childhood observation of an automobile accident with attendant bodies, something relevant to this writer's experience. Class III: First-person accounts from relatives or close friends that the individual knows very well and trusts implicitly. Such information is very credible but far from easy to reveal to third parties since those involved are important to the individual. Class IV: First-person accounts of relatives or friends who are not so well-known to the individual. The reliability of the witness now becomes the reliability of the account and the need for independent "verification" definitely rears its head. Class V: First-person accounts given in person from new acquaintances. If the acquaintance is credible the account is credible and an "investigation" may be launched. Class VI: Accounts received second-hand but in person from reliable and credible people. These are "hearsay" in legal parlance but highly credible to nearly every human being in the right circumstances. Class VI accounts are the bedrock of most actual "real world" investigations since they yield first-person (Class V) leads. CLASS VII: Written first-person accounts from "reliable" individual sources, living or dead, though living is better since such persons can be interviewed. These are the primary sources of the historian. Letters, diaries, articles, essays and books make up this class. Class VIII: Television, Radio and Newspaper news and feature stories in which the reporter and the source are identified. Here we find some of what we call "the news." In times past information from "the mass media" would have rated higher but we all must by now realize that "the news" is only an authorized version of an event or process. Today, "the news" is useful because it can lead to written or first-person information. Class IX: Written accounts, documents, photos, etc., including so-called "secret documents," without direct attribution. Much of the new wave of UFO material falls here. Evaluation depends on the credibility of the visible source, support from other sources and investigator experience. Class X: Television, Radio and Newspaper accounts without the quasi-official stamp of "the news." Here falls much of the "Tabloid" material on television today. If the sources are visible, identified and credible then these "Tabloid" stories move up to Class V, three cuts higher than most of what is on The CBS Evening News! As you can see the key to evaluating UFO information is in evaluating the source. And in order to evaluate the source you have to know something about that source. This is difficult in most cases because evaluating sources takes money and time. But some kind of source evaluation has to be done. (See Report On Communion for a real source evaluation.) It is most important that the UFO investigator be educated in the whole field of Ufology if that investigator is to navigate successfully through the information minefield. Until a person has become familiar with most of what has gone before he or she is in a poor position to make evaluations. This familiarity takes years to acquire but is a necessity. The UFO investigator has to have some understanding of human society and its organization. How can one define "alien" until what is "human" is known? And the investigator has to have some self-awareness. Is the investigator a witness? Why is the investigator interested in the subject at all? These are major questions that must be answered. Finally, the obvious involvement of what we here in the United States call "intelligence assets" requires extreme sophistication on the part of the investigator. Much UFO activity may be a deception run by the intelligence agencies--or by the actual UFO operators themselves, either alone or in concert with our own intelligence operatives. Let's look at a couple of examples. As a small child this writer saw a very large, dark, diamond-shaped object fly overhead. It was under a solid overcast and made no sound. It seemed huge, as large as a commercial airliner. I did not see it coming but had a sudden urge to look straight up, to the zenith, which is hard to do when you are on a tricycle! When I bent over backwards and looked straight up I saw the object. It frightened me deeply and I remember looking around for places to hide. In seconds I was running into the house but I never told my mother or father about the object. It was somehow too personal, too private to ever tell anyone. Only in recent years have I talked about it at all. Now, to me this a Class II, maybe even a Class I, affair. I definitely felt threatened by this object. I was at least psychically injured. I have no doubt that the object was "real" and that I somehow interacted with it, that is, I was induced somehow to look up and see it. To you, reading this, my experience is (I hope) Class VII, information in writing from a reliable source. But am I reliable? You don't really know, do you? You have to make a decision based on what you have read about my experience on this page. If my account is well-written that makes it more credible. But it would help to know more about the source. If fact, the more you know about me as a person the more information you have about what I saw. You would like to know all about me in order to evaluate my experience. But I am not going to tell you that and you are not going to go to the trouble to find out. It is not that important. So my experience is just a "story." But if my story became important would not I begin to be investigated, just as so many others have been before? Viz: Dr. James McDonald in the late '60s, the man who became Philip Klass' first target. McDonald's reputation was tarnished because of the wide publicity given to Klass' groundless accusations. If there is any constant in the world of the "UFO" it is that people with information and credibility are going to have their character assassinated, over and over and over again. As a final information example let's look at the so-called "Lear Letters." They are by themselves Class IX and not very credible. Only John Lear himself lends them any weight, that and the fact that many investigators have suspected a deep, dark secret behind the "UFO" for some time and Lear's information ties in very well with some of these suspicions. For most in Ufology, however, the Lear Letters are too far out, too dark to be accorded any credibility. Of course, the Lear Letters contain "secrets" that are hardly any "darker" than those behind the recently revealed radiation experiments run on tiny children and pregnant women by the brave scientists, their draft deferments keeping them out of combat with other brave men, at Oak Ridge and Los Alamos. But no matter, the "Lear Letters" are beyond the credibility and comprehension of so many otherwise sophisticated Ufologists. In his 1987 book The Crimes Of Patriots former Wall Street Journal reporter Jonathan Kwitny sets out a story of financial crime and cover-up that is in its own way every bit as strange and frightening as the UFO story. Near the end of the book he comments that every time startling revelations on CIA dummy corporations or financial wrong-doing has surfaced in the press there have soon been other, really bizarre people coming forward to "support" the original source. But the story they told was so strange, so at variance with some of the known facts, that the whole affair soon became bogged down in a swamp of invective and bad faith. Does this sound familiar? Re: Hopkins. . .Strieber; .. . .Lear. . .Cooper. *** End *** ABOUT THE ROSWELL FILMS Now, about the Roswell autopsy films. On the surface there are only two possibilities -- they are the real deal or they are phony. That's obvious, right? Well, no, it isn't. Let's think a little deeper, get a little more sophisticated. It has been about 20 years now since the "crashed disc" material was reintroduced to the world of Ufology. The leading edge of this material were accounts published by Leonard Stringfield and Raymond Fowler, accounts that were at best Class VI and at worst too un-credible to be classified. About 15 years ago the first Roswell book was published, to no great fanfare. But in that book were real people, witnesses, still living, who could be tracked down and interviewed. And some of those witnesses were too old to care anymore and would TALK. Things began to move into the higher classifications. Strieber's COMMUNION lit the afterburner on all of this, making discussion of UFO and abduction-related items almost respectable. This led, in 1989, to the awesome segments on Unsolved Mysteries, segments about UFOs, Roswell, abductions, etc., with witnesses who would appear on camera and be identified. I can say that these programs, which are running all the time on cable all across the United States, have done more to raise the credibility of the "UFO" than nearly the combined effects of everything else that has ever happened in this area. Tens of millions of people have seen these programs and they are excellent, the best work that has EVER been done in this field. I have most of them on tape and watch them from time to time, shaking my head. They are better, more accurate, than almost any NEWS documentary you are likely to see. And the witnesses are named. You see, the cat is out of the bag already. In the course of normal activities I meet and talk to a lot of people and on occasion I overhear or instigate conversation in this area. There is no doubt, most people I have some time to talk with have an opinion, which is in itself amazing, and that opinion is basically, "Yeah, I think a flying saucer crashed out there, yeah." That cat is history. All that's left is the official notification, the notification that will put it on the Evening News, into the textbooks, into the mouths of Presidents and Premiers and university professors and James Oberg and Philip Klass. It's not yet official. The question is, "Will it ever be?" Ah, yes, there's the rub. My position is that the basic story is out because it is too big to contain but that official notification will never come, even in the face of what any reasonable person would consider ironclad evidence, i.e., proof. It will never come for three reasons: 1) It would severely threaten the power of our current elites; 2) Who may well be cooperating with these OTHERS at this time; 3) And who are perfectly capable of selling the rest of us out. Our betters have no intention, ever, of willingly revealing either of the first two things. They will have to be forced and that is not likely under current conditions, at least as I understand them. But, of course, I could be dead wrong. But, let us say first, for sake of argument, that Roswell did happen and there were discs and bodies, and autopsies that were phototgraphed. And let us also say that information on the general subject was leaking to such an extent that the cover story was being blown. Of what use would those photos be? Well, the typical tactic is to arrange to hide things in plain view, in a pile of disinformation, and let the normal confusion that reigns in the human world do the rest. The hope is that the subject will soon be thrown into such disrepute that no decent person will ever look into it again. This has been the tactic used in the UFO arena for nearly half a century now. It still is a pretty good one and it still works much of the time, very well with the sub-elite and scientific hoi-polloi, the kind of folks who populate CSICOP, and who believe in Scientism to the core. And it is these people who really need to be contained, the opinions of truck drivers, clerks, real estate salesmen and insurance agents counting for little in the great scheme of things. No, that sub-stratum of folks who work in the technical and semi-technical fields, and who teach, need the attention, the support, something they can hold onto personally and throw out onto the InterNet as they trash their opposition. So, I would make a film, a docudrama, of the real event, which would have that horrifying ring of truth that would startle all who saw it. But I would make the film so that eventually it would be revealed to all to be a hoax. From then on, to the end of time, the material in that film would be taboo for any person with any credibility at all. All it takes is the money to make the film and the well-paid people to put it into circulation. These requirments are not much of a burden to our secret polices, who have money to burn, believe me. It could be done, as it was done with the Majestic-12 documents, in my opinion. In the trade this is called Black Propaganda and it WORKS. You see, we have an epistomological problem here. In the world today we can KNOW, in a Class I or Class II way, very little or perhaps nothing (if you're not a witness) vis-a-vis the UFO situation in the world. And even if you are a witness what you have seen (or more likely been deliberately shown) by THEM is part of a campaign of deception just as deep and frightening as the one run by our human spooks, when you look into it. Everyone wants to KNOW what is going on but, let me tell you, we are NEVER going to KNOW -- it's just not our fate. Our spooks would like you to think that THEY know but even if they are in direct communication with THEM they still don't KNOW anything, for the simple reason that these OTHERS could be lying their alien asses off and our spooks would have no way to check. Our people KNOW only what these OTHERS choose to show them and that could well be part of the same kind of deception campaign our boys typically run against their own people, us. That's one of the reasons some are scared and are leaking, in my opinion. In closing, let's all have fun and enjoy the show. After all, we as taxpayers probably paid for it, whatever it is!! ***
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 22 Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:04:33 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:59:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? > From: EdKomarek@aol.com > Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 21:59:26 -0400 (EDT) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Debunker Containment Strategy? > I would like to see a book written exploring the >interactions and relationships between such debunkers as >Karl Pflock, Karl Korff, Col. Weaver, Phil Klass, James >Oberg, Carl Sagan, Donald Menzel etc. I would also like >to see investigations of CSICOP and the tabloid press >particulary the Weekly World News. While such a publication would be of interest, I would rather see honest research into the psychology of those who tend to follow this genre with religious zeal. I believe that blind faith is easily focused and manipulated by gentle suggestions from the outside. Some sort of grand scheme of for the containment of information through the use of dis-information is not needed, IMHO, since much of the genre tends to feed on itself endlessly. If one were to develop a so called "Debunker Containment Strategy", who would establish the line one would cross before your thoughts would be considered to be heresy. Unfortunately, this seems to follow a pattern of attacking the messenger, when you don't have the evidence or the ability to attack the message. A few vocal individuals have indicated that major UFO research organizations should be investigated because of their expressed concerns about recent efforts by CSETI. But how should "peer review" be implemented, and by whom? As with any volunteer organization, there is a certain amount independence and confusion among various groups within it. A recent statement on this list indicated that MUFONHQ@aol.com might not be connected with Walt Andrus and MUFON at all, but when I contacted that address I found that the message that had been sent out was written by Tom Deuley, Administrator for the UFO Coalition, who also works in Texas with Andrus and others. It appears that the address is real, and represents an outlet for information from MUFON and the Coalition. But the seeds of distrust have now been sown, and they can't easily be called back. There was a time when religions were started by those who felt the need to expand or modify the existing faith. It appears that UFOlogy has developed that same pattern. IMHO, we have one extreme represented by the follower's of Heaven's Gate, and another represented by a number of researchers who are trying desperately to document official actions and force information to the surface. At which end of that spectrum would one place the responsibility of "peer review"? Of course, the creation of a new religion often resulted in battles for power, and Ufology appears to be no different. Unfortunately, the search for truth often gets trampled in the battlefield.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 22 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> Date: 22 May 97 10:56:27 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:53:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context >Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:29:53 -0700 (PDT) >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context Jim, >Where I see a huge mistake having been made is in assuming that what ETs >show a contactee or abductee through one of their view screens or view >ports within a UFO is necessarily what was really out there. Why should >a ufologist assume that aliens are never deceptive? I've tried to make this point many times, with little apparent success. I think, given their track record, "aliens" should always be assumed to be deceptive unless their is strong evidence to the contrary. And this includes the deception on their part to try and convince us that they are, indeed, aliens. >There are some of us who are still waiting for an admission by Korff that >the upward-curved brush-like arc that extends to nowhere on the photo >"enhancement" on his p. 198 bears no resemblance to a support line for a >model UFO or for any other suspended weight. The same applies to the >intersecting quasi-horizontal brush-like marks on his "enhancement" on p. >200, and the line segment with 6 arrows pointing to it on his p. 207. >Such scratches were not present on any of the many 2nd-generation photo >materials inspected carefully by Wendelle Stevens and Jim Dilettoso, who >had incentive to treat their photos very carefully. Actually, there is a simple explanation for that upward curving support line. The photo is upside-down, and the model saucer was suspended above the line by a microscopically thin rigid rod, not hung from the line by invisible thread. Oh yeah, the background was made to appear rightside up with mirrors. Simple stage magic. I'm amazed at you, Jim, for not catching on to that right away. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 22 Re: From: Alfred Breull <puma@hannover.sgh-net.de> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:52:43 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:30:56 -0400 Subject: Re: >Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:39:51 -0700 >From: Scott Hale <shale@megalinx.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Roswell: Lie Detection? > I was letting the cogs in my brain turn again and started thinking >about some of the major Roswell witnesses. It would be interesting if we >could get a Polygraph session set up with a few of them. And what? No matter which result - nobody will beg you into area 51 and allow youto play with their little toys. >The funding could be done through FUFOR or another group. FUFOR will be happy now, or any other group. >Witnesses I was thinking >of are: > Jesse Marcel Jr. > Frank Kaufmann > Glenn Dennis > Sheridan Cavitt They will be really happy also. >What do you guys think? In my mind, there are more urgent and important things to do than to discuss persons' statements or credibility for the 437th time. Alf
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 22 Re: Roswell: 'Lie' Detection? From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:48:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:25:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Roswell: 'Lie' Detection? >Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:39:51 -0700 >From: Scott Hale <shale@megalinx.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Roswell: Lie Detection? > I was letting the cogs in my brain turn again and started thinking >about some of the major Roswell witnesses. It would be interesting if we >could get a Polygraph session set up with a few of them. The funding >could be done through FUFOR or another group. Witnesses I was thinking >of are: > Jesse Marcel Jr. > Frank Kaufmann > Glenn Dennis > Sheridan Cavitt >What do you guys think? Good idea, but hard to implement. Jesse Marcel Jr. has already been regressed, and it was that session that helped to convince Kent Jeffery that the Mogul explanation was valid. Jesse isn't convinced of that fact, but the session certainly didn't reveal anything new. Frank Kaufman and Glenn Dennis would be interesting, but I'm not sure they would go along. Sheridan Cavitt would be an impossibility. He grudgingly allowed himself to be interviewed for the Air Force report, and I doubt that he will allow himself to be questioned further. He is the only known witness to the Roswell debris field left alive, but he apparently continues to treat this as a highly classified matter.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 22 Re: Aliens are they real? From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:44:58 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:20:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Aliens are they real? A brief response regarding John Koopmans' response to my comments on developing monitoring equipment to detect abductions: >Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:32:16 -0400 (EDT) >From: ad897@freenet.durham.org (John Koopmans) >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Aliens are they real? >To: updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto) >> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:36:58 -0500 (CDT) >> From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >> To: updates@globalserve.net >> Subject: Re: Aliens are they real? >> I've recently been pondering the thought that the folks who really >> should have UFO detectors are those who claim they're currently the >> subjects of ongoing abductions by aliens. ... >> ... I wonder if anyone has ever approached such folks about >> a cooperative effort to develop sensitive equipment that could then >> be provided at nominal charge to anyone who suspects they are being >> abducted. These events often occur in the person's bedroom, which >> would be an ideal environment to set up a controlled test. ><snip> >> I've had various other ideas for monitoring and/or interfering with >> alleged abductions from bedrooms - some electrical and some >> mechanical. Weight sensors under bedposts, for instance, to record >> changes in load during the night, such as when a person is taken >> for awhile. That way abduction times and lengths could be recorded >> and monitored. >> Or how about having the potential abductee wear one of the same sort >> of transmitters that minor criminals are sometimes made to wear by >> the courts when they are put under "house arrest" in their own home. >> If the person gets out of range of the base unit (as in an abduction), >> the base unit no longer picks up the transmitter and automatically >> notifies a remote sight (the police, in the case of criminals). >> There must be dozens of ways to monitor all these alleged abductees >> and establish some solid evidence if something is happening. It >> surprises me that nobody has taken the steps to do it. Maybe >> selling various sorts of UFO detectors and abductee monitoring >> equipment would make a nifty little niche mail-order business for >> someone nuts enough to take it on and establish a relevant web page >> advertising the rather "one of a kind" product line to the right >> target groups. >I know several abductees, and most of them have already had more than >enough tampering with their lives, without having to wear, or be >surrounded with these gadgets. They don't need more proof - they've >already had more than they can handle. Certainly. But the evidence collected wouldn't be so much for them, but rather to wake up a sleeping society at large with hard evidence that something is going on here. One of the common complaints about the UFO field is the lack of hard evidence, is it not? >One of the abductees did try out some electronic equipment for a few weeks >but, obviously no experiences occurred during that short time. It has >even been said that abductions won't occur while monitoring equipment >is around. Well then, perhaps that in itself is sufficient cause for installing the equipment! >It is too much to expect these people to be "guinea pigs". They really do >want to get on with a normal life. I think that it's time that we treat >abductees with respect and dignity, and not like "guinea pigs" wearing >equipment that "criminals" wear! If they wish to volunteer, then that >should be up to them, and we should feel honoured by their sacrifice. My remarks applied only to abductees interested in volunteering to test such equipment, not forcing anyone to be an involuntary test animal. We'll leave that to the alien abductors. As to the implied criminal stain - that's nuts! Monitoring equipment is monitoring equipment; its original association with law enforcement is totally irrelevant to the suggested application. But I do completely agree with John's last remark. -Brian Cuthbertson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 22 Re: Re: Aliens are they real? From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:30:52 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:28:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Re: Aliens are they real? >From: ad897@freenet.durham.org (John Koopmans) >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Aliens are they real? >To: updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto) >Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:32:16 -0400 (EDT) >> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:36:58 -0500 (CDT) >> From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >> To: updates@globalserve.net >> Subject: Re: Aliens are they real? >> I've recently been pondering the thought that the folks who really >> should have UFO detectors are those who claim they're currently the >> subjects of ongoing abductions by aliens. There are several folks >> on the web who claim to have a long history of ongoing abductions, >> and they seem like the perfect "guinea pigs" for testing such >> equipment. I wonder if anyone has ever approached such folks about >> a cooperative effort to develop sensitive equipment that could then >> be provided at nominal charge to anyone who suspects they are being >> abducted. These events often occur in the person's bedroom, which >> would be an ideal environment to set up a controlled test. ><snip> John K responds, >It is too much to expect these people to be "guinea pigs". They really do >want to get on with a normal life. I think that it's time that we treat >abductees with respect and dignity, and not like "guinea pigs" wearing >equipment that "criminals" wear! If they wish to volunteer, then that >should be up to them, and we should feel honoured by their sacrifice. >John Koopmans Hi All, Oh John, I've been sitting back trying to hold my mud and just watching to see where this thread ended up. Of course for those of you who have been a part of this list for awhile already know that we have all covered this ground in a previous thread (Steve Powell, myself and others.) John K has very eloquently stated my feelings and attitudes about this monitoring business. I don't think it has a chance in hell of working anyway! Everyone keeps forgetting that we are dealing with an extremely advanced technology on the part of these 'aliens' and that they could simply avoid or easily circumvent any 'antiques' we may employ. Also, historically speaking, anything electronic is usually disabled or cut off when in the presence of these craft/beings anyway. Steve Powell had at one point suggested that a cut off in the equipment could act as an indicator or alarm if you will. But then Steve wouldn't have to wear the damn thing all the time! John Koopmans has demonstrated a (rare) level of human understanding, sensitivity and compassion in his response to this thread. I for one have tried time and again to make myself available for testing (the NOVA program being a case in point) but what is being suggested here is every bit as intrusive as what the damned aliens are doing to us! (If there is justice in the universe, someone else is abducting those little grey bastards from their homes as well! At least I hope so.) It's easy and cute for some folks to sit around and suggest things like, "well let's put tracking devices on em,"...or, "let's put videocams in their bedrooms and tape every move that they make" as if we were cattle. This kind of thing turns us into mere 'objects' to be studied and put through little mazes. Screw you, put the devices on yourselves and your relatives. As John put it, "we've already been through enough." I have said it time and again that it is a dehumanizing thing to suggest to people. We are already struggling with something so life altering and monumental, that if it was happening to guys who are suggesting these little experiments, it would probably make *them* go running to their prozac supply for help. Put yourself in our shoes. Ask yourself how you would feel if I asked you to wear a monitoring device and put videocams into the privacy of your bedroom? I'm willing to help serious investigators gather information, but not at the *further expense* of my individual privacy and basic human dignity. As for the (ding dong) who wants to market "alien detectors"... try selling those to your own family, or to the general public! They're the ones who are gonna need em! Put one in *your own* bedroom. And remember always, that what is happening to me and mine today, could be happening to you and yours tomorrow! At least I have the satisfaction of knowing that I stood up, looked you square in the eye and (tried) to warn you. Beyond that, you're on your own. After "reporting" to my fellow creatures, my responsibility ends and (yours) begins. If I had spotted Chinese submarines off the coast of Long Island I would do the same thing, but because it's "aliens" I'm reporting (in the minds of some,) it makes them think they have the right to tear apart the messenger in any creative manner they can concoct. Sorry, it just don't work thata way. John K, thanx for the partial restoration of my faith in humanity. As for the 'insensitives' in the crowd, I hope that you never find yourself in a position to have to be subjected to the kinds of indignities, and ridicule that we have to endure. Because many of us feel a responsibility to our fellows and choose to face the fire and report publicly what is happening to us, does not imply that we have given permission to be stripped of our dignity or privacy! John Velez, Abductee Union Rep. <G> * *** ***** ******* ======================================= * jvif@spacelab.net * * * * INTRUDERS FOUNDATION ONLINE * * * * www.spacelab.net/~jvif/bhhp.html * ======================================= ******* ***** *** *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 Re: Huge UFO Over Ireland From: Alfred Breull <puma@hannover.sgh-net.de> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:26:44 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:08:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Huge UFO Over Ireland >Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:13:27 +0100 >To: UFO UpDates <updates@mail.globalserve.net> >From: Joe McNally <fortean3@easynet.co.uk> >Subject: That Irish UFO sighting >Forwarded from one of Fortean Times' Irish contacts, Daev Walsh: > >>Well, it appears that Mr. Rosenthal's email address is a fake. >>areatech.org doesnn't even exist. > > --- snip -- Well done, good work: quick & efficient. Alf
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 Re: Aliens are they real? From: Don Ledger <dledger@istar.ca> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:47:33 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:18:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Aliens are they real? > From: ad897@freenet.durham.org (John Koopmans) > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Aliens are they real? > To: updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto) > Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:32:16 -0400 (EDT) > > I've recently been pondering the thought that the folks who really > > should have UFO detectors are those who claim they're currently the > > subjects of ongoing abductions by aliens. Snipped for brevity. > I know several abductees, and most of them have already had more than > enough tampering with their lives, without having to wear, or be > surrounded with these gadgets. They don't need more proof - they've > already had more than they can handle. Also, the abductions don't > necessary happen on a regular or predictable schedule. It could be months > or even years between abduction experiences. That is an unacceptable > length of time to be surrounded by these gadgets. Stanton Friedman once said, "What's in it for the witnesses?" Meaning after they bare their soles and identities to us they can expect notoriety, derision and ridicule. They are pestered by investigators, the press and documentary interests. Many of them bear this burden with, I feel, a great deal of courage and patience and a few show extraordinary forbearance and willingness to see their encounters and attempts by investigators, through to the end. I have to agree with John that wiring up some of these people may be unacceptable and other methods may be necessary. Snipped > One of the abductees did try out some electronic equipment for a few weeks > but, obviously no experiences occurred during that short time. It has > even been said that abductions won't occur while monitoring equipment > is around. > John Koopmans It is my gut feeling that if we are to believe that these abductions are taking place (the anecdotal evidence is almost overwhelming) then these abductors are too clever to fall for "bugs" worn by the abductees or other such electronic surveillance (sp) devices. It would almost seem that the monitoring of "abductees" would have to be done without their knowledge since whatever they know apparently so do the little gray guys. Since bugging a subjects bedroom, say, without their knowledge could be disastrous and embarrassing not to mention downright illegal this would limit monitoring to television surveillance from outside the residence and on and on and on. I only got involved on this thread because I gave it some thought after reading Budd's latest and reading Honeybee's stuff on this list. None of this is my area of expertise. Regards, Don Ledger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 1947 Newspaper Clippings From: Graham William Birdsall <106151.1150@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:13:48 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:25:47 -0400 Subject: 1947 Newspaper Clippings Dear colleagues, I recently received copies of the 'Irish Times' and 'Irish Independent'newspapers dated 9 July 1947, which contained some fascinating references and quotes derived from what happened at Roswell. I should add as a matter of courtesy that these clippings were located by Mr. John Scarry in Dublin. The clippings reference the basic story and cite 'flying saucer' incidents over Johannesburg, Sydney, Mexico City, and various parts of the United States and Canada, plus a report from England dated 30 June '47. The following quotes may be of interest to Roswell 'historians' in that this is what was being reported on this side of the 'pond'... 'Brigadier Gen. Roger Ramey, Commander of the 8th Air Force, said that the battered object, which was being shipped by air to the U.S. Army Air Force's research centre at Right [sic] Field, Ohio, was of "flimsy construction almost like a box kite". 'It was made of some sort of tin-foil. Later the Army Air Force said that the object might have had a diameter of about 10 - 25 feet if reconstructed, but nothing indicated any capacity for speed, and there was no evidence of a power plant. 'Mr. Charles G. Ross, President Truman's Press Secretary, said earlier that no official investigation was under way, so far as the White House was concerned. 'It was reported yesterday that a Wisconsin civil air group planned to conduct a series of mass flights, as two pilots had sighted discs in Wisconsin. About 150 'planes, it was stated, would participate.' The above text is taken from the 'Irish Independent', Wednesday, July 9, 1947. The 'Irish Times' runs its coverage along similar lines, but has three interesting statements: 'The U.S. War Department stated last night that they were without news of the New Mexico "flying saucer," and were checking with Roswell. 'Professor Einstein told a U.P. correspondent he had "absolutely no comment" to make. 'The Daily Telegraph (English newspaper) declared that the "saucers" were "the in-direct result of large recent exports of Scotch whisky".' Thus endeth the relevant quotations from a couple of 50-year-old newspapers. I included the Daily Telegraph comment to illustrate that ridicule existed long before any civilian UFO researchers got in on the act. I don't profess to know if any of the afore-mentioned quotations are of significance (not least because this is being posted late on an evening after a tiring day) but I'd be interested of course in your comments. Best regards, Graham W. Birdsall [Editor] UFO Magazine (UK)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:26:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context > Date: 22 May 97 10:56:27 EDT > From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context > Actually, there is a simple explanation for that upward curving support > line. The photo is upside-down, and the model saucer was suspended above > the line by a microscopically thin rigid rod, not hung from the line by > invisible thread. Oh yeah, the background was made to appear rightside up > with mirrors. Simple stage magic. I'm amazed at you, Jim, for not > catching on to that right away. Oh, I see! That Meier fellow is even more clever than anyone thought! Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 Re: Roswell: 'Lie' Detection? From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:47:03 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:46:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Roswell: 'Lie' Detection? >Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:39:51 -0700 >From: Scott Hale <shale@megalinx.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Roswell: 'Lie' Detection? >All, <snip> > Jesse Marcel Jr. > Frank Kaufmann > Glenn Dennis > Sheridan Cavitt >What do you guys think? Scott: Lets broaden the scope here a little. UFO debunkers who claim to be legitimite UFO researchers should also be given a battery of tests to see weither THEY are telling the truth. One would think THEY would like to clear up THEIR credibility problems once and for all, if indeed they were telling the truth. Many UFO witnesses have in fact submitted to tests to prove their honesty. Should not those who accuse these witnesses also be expected to prove THEIR honesty. Should not those who make accusations also be put to the same tests. Of course if the debunkers were in fact lying it would be foolish for them to submit to fair and accurate testing. The only way out would be if they could rig the tests. I don't expect a rush by the debunkers to undergo testing anytime soon. I mean realy take the tests, not just talk about doing so. If we realy wanted to get to the bottom of these arguments about the validity of witness testimony involving Roswell we would be pressing for fair and accurate tests of ALL concerned. Maybe Stanton & Kevin should challenge Kal & Karl to undergo a extensive series of lie detector tests together. I would expect Kal Korff and Karl Pflock to blow a lot of smoke but don't hold your breath for anything to come of such a challenge. The best, Ed Komarek (ORTK)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 Re: Roswell: 'Lie' Detection? From: fanning@ibm.net (Kathryn Fanning) Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:33:47 GMT Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:28:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Roswell: 'Lie' Detection? >Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:39:51 -0700 >From: Scott Hale <shale@megalinx.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Roswell: Lie Detection? > Jesse Marcel Jr. > Frank Kaufmann > Glenn Dennis > Sheridan Cavitt Don't forget Frankie Rowe (I tend to believe her). Kathryn Fanning fanning@ibm.net Managing Editor ByLine magazine http://www.ByLineMag.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: Ktperehwon@aol.com [Karl Pflock] Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:19:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context Concerning the parentheses "mysteriously" missing from around the word "bachelor's" in the transcript of Bob Pratt's 12/8/79 interview with Jesse Marcel, Sr., as published in my "Roswell in Perspective": Bob Pratt told me he typed the transcript from his (his no longer extant) audio tape of the interview a day or two after the event, while he was still on the road.* He included various parentheticals, using no consistent system. Some were questions to be asked latter as follow ups--as, e.g., "I was promoted to Lt Col in Dec 1947. (when find out) after I got out of the service," the question referring to when Marcel got out of the service. Some were questions asked and answered during the interview--as, e.g., "(flying before--work?) private pilot," with Marcel's answer following. Some obviously were answers to a clarifying question asked during the interview but left out by Pratt when typing his transcription, in the interests of saving time, space, and work in that pre-laptop age. One of these was the wor d "bachelor's." As I was cleaning up the text of Pratt's rough typescript, I dropped the parentheses around "bachelor's" and replaced them with commas, as it was crystal clear this was a word out of Marcel's mouth. I had no intention of confusing the issue, and I apologize for inadvertently fueling this small red-herring roast. In any case, earlier in the interview and quoting now exactly from Pratt's original transcript (non-capitalization and all), Marcel says, speaking of his working days before World War II, "no degree then. got one later, 6 diff schools...." There can be no reasonable doubt Marcel claimed to have earned a college degree, and when combined with his later claims (again quoting exactly from Pratt's transcript) that he had a "degree in nuclear physics" and "completed work at GW Univ inWash.," there is all but no room for doubt he intended Pratt to believe that degree was earned from The George Washington University in Washington, D.C. Just had a thought: I wonder if (former) nuclear physicist Stan Friedman ever talked nuclear physics with Marcel? -- KARL PFLOCK *Bob Pratt not only provided me with a copy of his original transcript, he also spent a great deal of time describing to me the circumstances leading up to and surrounding his interview with Marcel and hunting up his expense records to confirm his recollections of the exact date of the interview.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 Re: Roswell: 'Lie' Detection? From: Scott Hale <shale@megalinx.net> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:55:24 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:53:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Roswell: 'Lie' Detection? > Good idea, but hard to implement. Jesse Marcel Jr. has already been > regressed, and it was that session that helped to convince Kent Jeffery > that the Mogul explanation was valid. Jesse isn't convinced of that fact, > but the session certainly didn't reveal anything new. > Frank Kaufman and Glenn Dennis would be interesting, but I'm not sure they > would go along. > Sheridan Cavitt would be an impossibility. He grudgingly allowed himself > to be interviewed for the Air Force report, and I doubt that he will allow > himself to be questioned further. He is the only known witness to the > Roswell debris field left alive, but he apparently continues to treat this > as a highly classified matter. Well, regression isn't the same as a Polygraph, I just think it would help sort out various truths of the case... Regards, Scott K. Hale
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 Re: Aliens are they real? From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:42:00 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:29:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Aliens are they real? Before I bow out of this thread, I think I'd like to respond to some of John Velez' remarks ... John wrote ... > Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 > From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: Aliens are they real? ... >It's easy and cute for some folks to sit around and suggest things like, >"well let's put tracking devices on em,"...or, "let's put videocams in >their bedrooms and tape every move that they make" as if we were cattle. >This kind of thing turns us into mere 'objects' to be studied and put >through little mazes. Screw you, put the devices on yourselves and your >relatives. As John put it, "we've already been through enough." John makes a couple of assumptions here that aren't necessarily valid. First, he assumes the abductee must relinquish his privacy to some outside party who would be in charge of this equipment. Actually, I would assume just the opposite: any equipment would be under total private control of the abductee so he could monitor his own situation. If I were an abductee that's certainly how I'd want it. Second, John assumes the abductee must wear some intrusive device, like a lab rat or something. Not necessarily so - it depends on the monitoring method chosen. As I said in the post that apparently precipitated this thread, there are probably literally dozens of approaches one could take, both active and passive. Take just one hypothetical example: a tiny weight monitor pad under a bedpost, connected to a monitoring box inside a nightstand drawer. The box would also have a built-in digital clock. Now how intrusive is that? Nothing to put on, nothing even visible to a casual visitor to the room. And it can be ignored indefinitely, for months or years even. But if you wake up one morning with a nosebleed or memories of strange dreams, you can open the drawer yourself, check the box, and determine (1) was I not in bed for a significant period of time last nite? or (2) was the box de-activated (clock behind the time) for a significant period last night? If I were a person who suspected he was being abducted, that would be a nice resource to have, don't you think? Even more so if the monitor were under my child's bed and he were getting the nosebleeds. >Put yourself in our shoes. I just did. >As for the (ding dong) who wants to market "alien detectors"... try selling >those to your own family, or to the general public! They're the ones who >are gonna need em! Put one in *your own* bedroom. I doubt most abductees have the electromechanical acumen to build these devices themselves. If I were an abductee, would I buy such a thing if it were available at a modest price and reported to be useful? You bet I would! One point John makes that I certainly agree with is the possibility that the aliens could defeat absolutely anything we do to monitor them. Well, my response is, maybe so. But you never know til you try, and I doubt any of us is ready to toss in the towel on this phenomenon yet. John included. With that I resign this thread and return to my normal mode of being a mere lurker. When it comes to emotion and spirit, I certainly admit that John has few peers in this list. -Brian Cuthbertson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: DRudiak@aol.com [Dave Rudiak] Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:20:47 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:20:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context In a message dated 97-05-21 14:03:37 EDT, Kal Korff writes: >So, Kevin, (also Dave Rudiak, Philip Mantle, Michael Hesemann and >any other Marcel supporters) WHY do ALL if you IGNORE these tall >tales cited by Marcel regarding his background?? Did ANY OF YOU >even BOTHER checking them? On the contrary, I haven't ignored them. In the past two weeks I've pointed out numerous instances where Kal Korff, Robert Todd, Peter Brookesmith, Philip Klass, Karl Pflock and no doubt others have deliberated misquoted Marcel, distorted or lied about the contents of the circulating record, lifted statements completely out of context from his record to put as negative a slant as possible on it, fabricated "facts" not in evidence one way or the other in an obviously incomplete record, omitted critical evidence in Marcel's record that might support his statements, and engaged in pathetically stupid armchair psychoanalysis of Marcel. In addition the Marcel character assassinators have left out all mention of Marcel's spotless military record, the fact that he consistently received excellent reviews, before and AFTER Roswell including from the very officers who knew exactly what happened at Roswell, Col. Blanchard and Gen. Ramey (who called him "outstanding" and recommended him for higher intelligence work), that he was deemed reliable, stable, and dependable enough to have a Top Secret clearance before and AFTER Roswell, and ultimately ended up working as the Officer in Charge of the War Room for the Top Secret Special Weapons Project where he was responsible for preparing briefings and special reports for the upper brass. I have pointed out several times that if Marcel had really bungled a routine balloon identification at Roswell, jumped over Blanchard's head and written a press release of a flying disc recovery, created an international press feeding frenzy, and publicly embarassing his superiors (including Blanchard, Ramey, and AAF Deputy Chief Gen. Vandenberg), the man's career surely would have been over. He might very well have been court-martialed. But nothing like that happened. Blanchard and Ramey both praised him afterwards. This is completely inconsistent with the picture of Marcel that Marcel character assassinators are trying to paint. Several times I have asked for an explanation for how this could possibly have happened. How could an intelligence officer be so allegedly incompetent, rash, insubordinate, and untrustworthy, yet NOTHING negative happens to him, he continues to draw high praise, and he gets promoted to an even more sensitive position a year later? Why won't the Marcel slanderers deal with this very fundamental point? Also why don't Marcel's detractors mention the various witnesses and evidence that support his basic Roswell story? ( Roswell isn't a one-man story.) These include people like the Proctors, the Stricklands, Louis Rickett, Bill Brazel, Jesse Marcel Jr., Robert Smith, Robert Porter, Gen. Exon, and others who support Marcel's descriptions of highly anomalous foil-like and wood-like debris? Other military witnesses have come out and stated that they had knowledge of a flying saucer crash. These include Provost Marshall Easley, Exon, and "Pappy Henderson" (through his friends and family). How is it that these people are all telling such a consistent story? Are they ALL"pathological liars" and "fantasists?" Marcel stated that the real debris was switched for a weather balloon and a radar reflector in Fort Worth. On this he's backed up by Gen. Dubose, who was there and told the same story, plus added details unknown to Marcel, including a debris flight two days before to Washington and Wright Field. Marcel's Fort Worth story is also backed up by Robert Porter, photographer C. Bond Johnson and his photos, newswires and newspaper stories of the day, and ultimately by the fact that the military displayed the EXACT same radar reflectors in several different locations the next day as part of a nationwide debunking campaign of the flying saucers. They declared that these reflectors were used by EVERY military base in the country and were no doubt responsible for ALL the flying saucer reports. This means that these reflectors were readily available for substitution. And finally, Marcel is backed up by the fact that NOTHING adverse happened to him, or Blanchard, or PIO Walter Haut. The Air Force has a very strange way of dealing with its alleged incompetent and insubordinate officers. I have also requested explanations from the likes of Kal Korff as to why the so-called "Mogul witnesses" aren't subjected to a fraction of the critical scrutiny of poor Jesse Marcel? Their stories are wildly inconsistent with one another and the Mogul hypothesis, there have been numerous changes of story, and there have also been some pretty blatant lies. These include people like Sheridan Cavitt (many self-contradictions, changes of story, and lies), Irving Newton (big changes of story), "Reluctant" (big changes of story), Jason Kellahin (contradicted by others, couldn't have been where he thought he was), Bessie Brazel Schreiber (inconsistencies in story), and Charles Moore (changes of story). We have yet to get a consistent description of the alleged balloon debris from any two of them and all sorts of incredible properties are now ascribed to once fragile, ordinary Mogul materials that some how made them completely unidentifiable to the likes of Marcel, Blanchard, and others who support them. But all this gets swept under the rug in order to make the Mogul hypothesis work and turn Marcel into a pathological liar. We can go over these points one by one, but I refuse to get into a SHOUTING MATCH WITH SOMEBODY WHO IS ALWAYS DEMANDING TO HAVE ANSWERS TO HIS QUESTIONS BUT NEVER SEEMS TO ANSWER POINTS RAISED IN RETURN. [Kantankerous Korff Kaps mode off. Somebody disable the man's Caps key -- please!]
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 Re: Roswell: 'Lie' Detection? From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 21:17:51 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:55:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Roswell: 'Lie' Detection? > Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:39:51 -0700 > From: Scott Hale <shale@megalinx.net> > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Roswell: Lie Detection? > Jesse Marcel Jr. > Frank Kaufmann > Glenn Dennis > Sheridan Cavitt Stop reading the newspapers and magazines so much. Polygraphs aren't exactly the infallible detectors of veracity they would have you believe. Don't think so read up on the Aldrich Ames case, how many polygraph tests did he pass at the CIA? Read up on some physiology and pharmacology too, other recognized methods of circumvention exist there as well. One of us is in the wrong universe if you think Sheridan Cavitt will be sitting down for a polygraph!! Frank Kaufman is a media star already, what would it prove? Bottom line...waste of time. Gary
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: Ktperehwon@aol.com [Karl Pflock] Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:21:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context Concerning the parentheses "mysteriously" missing from around the word "bachelor's" in the transcript of Bob Pratt's 12/8/79 interview with Jesse Marcel, Sr., as published in my "Roswell in Perspective": Bob Pratt told me he typed the transcript from his (his no longer extant) audio tape of the interview a day or two after the event, while he was still on the road.* He included various parentheticals, using no consistent system. Some were questions to be asked latter as follow ups--as, e.g., "I was promoted to Lt Col in Dec 1947. (when find out) after I got out of the service," the question referring to when Marcel got out of the service. Some were questions asked and answered during the interview--as, e.g., "(flying before--work?) private pilot," with Marcel's answer following. Some obviously were answers to a clarifying question asked during the interview but left out by Pratt when typing his transcription, in the interests of saving time, space, and work in that pre-laptop age. One of these was the word "bachelor's." As I was cleaning up the text of Pratt's rough typescript, I dropped the parentheses around "bachelor's" and replaced them with commas, as it was crystal clear this was a word out of Marcel's mouth. I had no intention of confusing the issue, and I apologize for inadvertently fueling this small red-herring roast. In any case, earlier in the interview and quoting now exactly from Pratt's original transcript (non-capitalization and all), Marcel says, speaking of his working days before World War II, "no degree then. got one later, 6 diff schools...." There can be no reasonable doubt Marcel claimed to have earned a college degree, and when combined with his later claims (again quoting exactly from Pratt's transcript) that he had a "degree in nuclear physics" and "completed work at GW Univ inWash.," there is all but no room for doubt he intended Pratt to believe that degree was earned from The George Washington University in Washington, D.C. Just had a thought: I wonder if (former) nuclear physicist Stan Friedman ever talked nuclear physics with Marcel? -- KARL PFLOCK *Bob Pratt not only provided me with a copy of his original transcript, he also spent a great deal of time describing to me the circumstances leading up to and surrounding his interview with Marcel and hunting up his expense records to confirm his recollections of the exact date of the interview.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 Re: Just a comment on Marcel's Military Records From: DRudiak@aol.com [David Rudiak] Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:41:08 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:19:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Just a comment on Marcel's Military Records >Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:25:18 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >Subject: Just a comment on Marcel's Military Records >A Small Journey to seek the Truth . . . > Jesse Marcel's Military Records >Perhaps it's time for a reality check . . . or perhaps not, >depending on your point of view. >We have become witness to a continuing debate on the veracity of >Jesse Marcel, Sr., as defined by analysis of his military record >and statements that he allegedly made. I will leave it to those >with more ammunition to carry on this discussion. But, I will >admit that it reminds me of the old rule that if you can't >discredit the message, then discredit the messenger. That's what the character assassination campaign by Todd, Klass, Brookesmith, Korff, Pflock and even Jim Moseley of "Saucer Smear" is all about. It's almost all derived from Todd's accusations, and it's purpose is to destroy Roswell by destroying Marcel, no matter what it takes. It doesn't even matter that Marcel was just one of many witnesses telling the same story. >When I first became aware or the allegations that have been made, >I decided to try and follow this up on my own and obtain a copy >of Marcel's records under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). >On January 21, 1997 I submitted an FOIA request to the >Headquarters Air Force Personnel Center, Randolph Air Force Base, >which they acknowledged. On February 12th I received a reply that >was somewhat surprising: >"The Air Force Worldwide Locator does not maintain records, but >was able to identify Colonel Marcel on a listing indicating that >his records were burned in the fire at the National Personnel >Records Center (MPRC) in St. Louis in 1973. However, sometimes >the MPRC is able to provide information from alternate record >sources on an individual whose military personnel record was >believed to be destroyed in that 1973 fire. Your request is being >forwarded to the National Personnel Records Center/Air Force >Reference, 9700 Page Avenue, St. Louis Missouri 63132-5100 for >their appropriate action. They will reply directly to you." A lot of files were destroyed in that fire. But because of Marcel's Top Secret clearance, there were probably files being kept on him elsewhere. >If true, that would mean that those quoting from Marcel's >official record must have obtained it prior to the fire, and >somehow that doesn't seem too likely. While the letter seemed >somewhat ominous, I knew from experience with the NPRC and other >veteran agencies that records were often lost in the system or >simply on loan to another department. But it raises the question >of where all these 200 page "copies" of Marcel's official record >came from. If they're copies, and I doubt that any of them are >original documents, then it is quite likely that they aren't >identical. It would be quite interesting to obtain complete sets >of each for comparison. >But I would be hesitant in accepting arguments that were based >solely on interpretation of what appears most likely to be an >incomplete record. Kevin Randle has pointed out that many of the >records are flawed, and that further complicates the question as >to their completeness. It's also quite easy to alter copies. A little White-Out here and there could wipe out portions of Marcel's past, opening him to charges of "liar, liar, pants on fire." Also simply removing a page here and there could do likewise. Some of his evaluations, e.g., have pages missing from them. And there are big gaps in Marcel's record in the circulating copy, where we can't be sure what he was doing at the time. I certainly agree with you that we need a copy direct from an official agency, not one of unknown pedigree circulating around the UFO community. Even then we can't be sure that it's complete or unaltered, but it would lend it some degree of authenticity. >On April 17, 1997 I received a form response from the National >Personnel Records Center stating that: >"On February 12, 1997 this Center received your request under the >Freedom of Information Act. We find that the pertinent record is >not available as it has not yet been transferred to this Center / >has been loaned to the originating agency." Well, this is VERY interesting. Who is the "originating agency" and why do they want it? Could this be Air Force OSI, the guys who did the Roswell report, playing dirty tricks again, controlling the flow of information? >In addition, I was informed that >"A response to the portion of your request about which there is >no question of releasability is enclosed." >Attached to this form letter was a single sheet, filled out by >hand. It outlined very basic information, and was by no means >complete. It did show the record of a decorated veteran of the >Pacific Theater during World War II, but it boiled his entire >military career into about 50 written words, so I wouldn't call >it anything more than interesting. >Until (or Unless) the NPRC is able to locate Marcel's records, or >it simply resurfaces at Randolph Air Force Base, there is no way >to tell what Marcel's official record contains. Without an >official record to back up the "copies" that have been >circulating among researchers, we are left with documents that >are unverified. Unfortunately, it would appear that the system >may be designed to always leave open the question of whether or >not the record, as compiled, is complete. >If the records were actually destroyed in the 1973 fire, that >would leave a number of questions as to where the circulating >"copies" came from. Indeed, where did it come from? How did Robert Todd get his hands on it so easily, while others like you can never get a copy? Todd and his parrots had an entire year to distribute his slander based on nothing but Todd's personal interpretation of the record. The rest of us had nothing to work with to defend against the onslaught. If this had been a court case, a mistrial would have been declared. It's only in the last few months that copies finally worked their way into the Roswell camp. And low and behold, they pretty clearly illustrate that Todd and cronies omitted portions of the record that contradict their opinions (in some cases simply lying), lifted statements completely out of context, and hurled accusations based on the complete absence of evidence one way or the other. About the only charges they left out were that Marcel was obviously a Soviet/Nazi spy and probably molested children. Hey, his record doesn't specifically contradict this, so it could be true, couldn't it? > Even if accurate, they may only paint a partial picture of his >career and conclusions would be flawed as a result. >For all the noise and debate, I suspect that we will all find out >positions determined as much by our preconceived notions as by >the "rational" arguements we have seen on the "net" on this >issue. The record, even as it is, shows Marcel to be a very well thought of intelligence officer by his superior officers , who continued to receive excellent reviews after Roswell (including from Col. Blanchard and Gen. Ramey who knew what happened at Roswell), and received a promotion to a highly sensitive, Top Secret position afterwards. This is hardly the profile of somebody who screwed up a routine balloon identification at Roswell because of his alleged hysteria and big ego, broke protocol and wrote his own press release causing a press feeding frenzy that went clear to the top in the Pentagon, and badly embarassed the Air Force. That's the silly scenario the debunkers are trying to paint. But it would have been the end of Marcel's career for sure. Nope, nothing like that. This is one of those "little" omissions by the debunkers. Obviously they have no explanation for any of this if Marcel was really the rash, egomaniacal liar they are trying to portray. The next Roswell book should be titled, "Roswell, What They Don't Want You to Know." Or has that title already been used?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: Don Allen <dona@totcon.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:21:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:32:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context At 05:48 AM 5/21/97 -0400, Kal Korff wrote: >From: TotlResrch@aol.com >Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 03:05:43 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Kal Korff to Don Allen >>My opinion is, he [Korff] did such sloppy "research" on the Meier case that >>I don't feel like wasting $27 on yet-another copy-cat rehash of the bobbsey >>twins, Todd and Pflock." >To which Kal Korff replies: >Dear Don, unless you are PSYCHIC my friend, or have somehow gained access to >my new book, you couldn't possibly know what's in it let alone dismiss it as >a "copy-cat" work. I find it interesting that you and everyone else so far >have BLATANTLY IGNORED those parts of the book that do constitute ORIGINAL >RESEARCH AND NEW REVELATIONS. Need I point them out?? Deja-vu..the feeling I've smelled Mogul before..however.. Please, by all means, do point out your original research. Perhaps you CAN dispell all the endless sniping and griping between ufologists on Roswell once and for all and get to the core argument. Personally, I don't buy the Mogul argument but if you can convince me with sound arguments, I'll listen. >Don, if I did such a "sloppy research" job on the Meier case as you claim, >then perhaps you can "enlighten" us on two simple issues here: >1) My analysis of Meier's "Venus" photos. WHERE did I make a mistake here, >Don? My analysis of these images represents the first time ever that these >photos were studied (and published) in detail. PLEASE EXPLAIN where I erred >here, Don, and feel free to REFUTE and CORRECT my analysis if you will. I don't have any contention with your analysis here Kal; my _opinion_ (a value judgement) of your "sloppiness" has more to do with the way you went undercover to FIGU and didn't even attempt to dialogue directly with Meier when you had the opportunity to ask him whatever you wanted to directly, even in undercover mode. *I* term it "sloppy" because if *I* was going to debunk someone like this, I wouldn't miss the chance to directly probe them with questions first-hand and get their responses on tape so there would be absolutely NO room left for them to weasel out of it by saying later that they were "taken out of context" or " I never said such a thing." That way you wouldn't be on Meier's infamous "shit list" on his FIGU web site for having "used large type" and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. What I personally consider the _perfect_ debunking of all time is when those supposedly "dumb canucks" (ha!) forced Bob Oeschler (sp) out of ufology over that asinine "Carp=crap" case. That was totally clean, an in-and-out and no endless debates for years afterwards. That's what I mean by the "shot between the eyes"; there's no doubt whatsoever left in anyone's minds. >2) My analysis of Meier's photos of the "Pleiadian" craft "landed" on the >ground as shown in pages 156-157 of my book "Spaceships of the Pleiades: The >Billy Meier Story." Please, Don, REFUTE or EXPLAIN my "sloppy research" here >where I claim that these photos show a small model close to the camera. Did you locate anyone who saw him physically film these models? Do you have witnesses who testified to having watched him assemble the models? What solid proof do you have that refutes witnesses to the beamship performances? ufology's general consensus has long been that that they are models based on photographic analysis; the Stevens/Dilletosso's (sp) explanations on how the Beamships _can't_ be models are just plain silly. The fact that there aren't any first generation film stock, that Stevens tried having 2nd or 3rd generation photos analyzed a long time ago at JPL was even sillier. The episode with the "disappearing metal samples" given to Marcel Vogel is equally bizarre. It doesn't wash. >After you successfully "refute" these two points, Don, I'll continue to go >down the list over scores of points with you until I am able to document from >you in painstaking detail WHERE and on WHAT I supposedly "screwed up" on in >my analysis of the Meier case. So far, for what it's worth Don, the >overwhelming consensus based on numerous feedback I have received from both >the media and UFO researchers, you are in the distinct minority. This doesn't >mean, however, that your points are necessarily wrong, time will tell, so >please EXPLAIN in the meantime HOW I goofed on these images/issues. The UFO >field could really learn something from this, if you are right, Don. Of _course_ the overwhelming consensus in UFOlogy IS that the Meier case is a sham, a hoax of exponential proportions. Discounting all the arguments on the photos, it's still a bizarre conglomeration of religious beliefs, hoky "alien science" with dubious "scientific facts" and highly suspect "cosmic revelations". It gets even more bizarre when you find out that the "Pleiadians" aren't even _that_ as they are now claiming to be "Plejaran" and that the whole "Pleiadian" identity was a ruse designed to "protect" their "members amongst humanity". I don't buy it. However, that doesn't explain _where_ Billy Meier came up with all this material; the pedantic lectures by the "Pleiadians" on mere mortal problems of "over-population", the "death penalty" and other assorted "insights into humanity's problems." He doesn't exactly strike me as an intellectual. Where exactly is Billy Meier "making a fortune" out of all this? Lee Elders made money on the video tapes and Meier never received a dime out of the royalties. I heard the same complaint from Bill Hermann, the Charleston S.C. abductee on the Fido UFO echo several years back when Herrman used to get on the conference and rail about Wendelle Stevens cheating _him_ out of royalties when Stevens published a book on his case. >>Don't you find it curious that Korff has evaded responding in detail to >>David <Rudiak's lengthy questions to him regarding Marcel? >Don, if you are going to cite my actions to buttress your biased opinions, >then PLEASE get your FACTS STRAIGHT! I AM NOT "ducking" either Rudiak or >ANYONE else. I have TOLD YOU REPEATEDLY (and others) that proper replies take >lots of time and I have been overwhelmed with correspondence and other >issues. I am working long hours as fast as I can, and since I have posted >numerous letters to this forum explaining all this, there's no excuse for YOU >to be "sloppy" regarding this topic, to use your own words, Don. Yes, I've been impatient and you're right, so I stand corrected. >For your information, Don, my reply to YOU (which was some 20 pages) has now >been edited down to 12, and I will be posting it VERY soon. Because you (Don) >made inquiries to me FIRST, I have replied to them first, THEN I will respond >to Rudiak since he was kind enough to answer my questions that I had to >subsequently ask him. My response to Rudiak is also more lengthy and required >a lot more attention. It was not too difficult however, just time consuming >as you will see. It seemed to me initially you were being evasive, but if this isn't the case I do apologize. I tend to be harder with "experts" than with anyone else, meaning I want to see how you reached your conclusions, what evidence you looked at and what your research methodology is like here in real time. If you think I've been "difficult", be glad you aren't Richard Boylan. :-) >Don, in closing, you have boasted in your past postings that you are not a >Meier follower or "believer" necessarily but that you do like to see "both >sides" posted and discussed. This issue of wanting to aire all sides is >certainly commendable. >However, with regards to me, you seem to have made an exception and seem to >hold some sort of bias somewhere and to the extreme that it has managed to >make you FORGET about my numerous cautions to everyone that I am trying to >get caught up and am extremely busy. Today, in my AOL "in-box" alone, I have >exactly 403 messages!! YOU or anyone else try and respond to such a load on a >timely basis. Understood. >As I close, before I finally send my lengthy Meier response to you, Don, I >need you to answer one quick question for me: A while back, you mentioned >that you would "see to it" that my response to Billy Meier got posted on his >WEB page. May I inquire as to HOW you intend to do this and is this offer for >real? Your answer(s) and explanation(s) will directly affect the ending of my >response, and how I word it, which I cannot complete until I receive >information from you on this matter. Then, I can and will, send you my >response right away. Yes, my original intention was that if you posted anything of a rebuttal nature to Meier that I would forward it along to him in direct email. However, I haven' t been able to find a direct email address for Meier, even on his FIGU website. My thinking now is that if you go ahead and post it here on the List with the idea that Meier will see it, I'm sure someone on this List who does have direct access to Meier will probably pass it on. Ideally, I'd LOVE to see a direct deba te between the two of you to settle this once and for all. Don
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 Re: Aliens are they real? From: afoos@fpcc.cc.mt.us (Alan R. Foos) Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:33:04 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:22:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Aliens are they real? I've recently related an experience I had in 1959 where an attempted abduction was made. Happily, I can say I was not abducted, but can also say that I had the unique experience of being able to say that an abduction did not distort my thinking. Anyway, I believe it is possible to catch the varmints, much better to kill a few, but not by the methods I see being proposed. Also, I would very much like to be involved in something like this. I do have a plan, but I intend to keep in confidential. The hardest part is connecting with another attempted abduction, and, of course, I can't hope to impose on someone else for this, and no one I personally know has an abduction history. What I do need help with is locating at least two, perhaps several, authentic and recent implants. I believe this is one important key to this problem. And yes, I am quite serious. Somehow, I have to obtain some implants. I've no intention of subjecting them to any kind of destructive analysis, and do intend to return them. I just need them for a few months. Know anyone who can help with this. I'll insert my story below, less details, as a message I sent to someone else. ------------------------- Your web page mentioned you wanted to hear from anyone with marks indicative of alien abduction. Can't help you with that, but perhaps I've something to say that may contribute to the "mystery." I'd also be very, very interested in receiving good data that can help profile the "alien" - particularly, physical, behavioral, or technological limitations. I'm also very interested in the same kinds of information on the implants themselves. Obviously, I do take the subject seriously, which I would never do if I hadn't both an experience of sorts myself combined with the numerous stories to be found on the web. Anyway, I'll just copy in the contents of a similar email below, and you'll see where I'm coming from. I have a strong background in scientific research. Anyway, here it is: I'm not sure what I can contribute here. I have a strong science background and am basically very down to earth. I'm not an abductee, nor have I ever seen a UFO. I began researching info on the web on this subject as entertainment. I would have never believed such things at all except for a few horrifying things that gradually dawned on me. If a person was abducted, who, indeed would believe it? Secondly, there was an experience I had, in 1959, at the age of 11, that I've ever since struggled to understand. After reading numerous abduction accounts and seeing numerous depictions of the "greys," it suddenly occurred to me, without any doubt and with great horror, that "greys" had indeed attempted to abduct me at that time, but had failed. I'm fairly sure that they did fail, that there was no memory lapse. The consistency of the anecdotes I've read combined with the memories of this incident make it certain that the phenomenon is no joking matter. It is real. And I am now no longer entertained, but deeply concerned. The animal mutilations are an apparently related matter that deserve serious study. I'm not the only one to think this way, I'm sure, but I find nothing at all interesting or benign about the alien abductions. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care how technologically "advanced" these beings are, the procedure is disgusting and vile beyond belief. Furthermore, there is no way to tell what their ultimate purposes are. If one delves into the more bizarre "folklore" surrounding the existence of "greys" and other alien beings, in fact, he finds things unthinkably horrible. My attitude may be colored by my country upbringing, but I firmly believe that anything, man or beast, particularly something with such intentions, that enters my home uninvited should be killed on the spot. Of course, they seem far too wiley to be killed, in most cases people are completely helpless, or so it seems. All the more reason to develop an adequate defense and resist them, indeed, kill them if possible. Also, all reports from sources who seem to be most intimately acquainted with the "greys" describe them as incorrigible liars. The possibility of obtaining any kind of benefits from these "advanced" beings pales in comparison to both known and potential evils, in fact, if one judges the unknown based on the known, we can be sure that they are evil beyond imagination. I'm not sure if the details of the attempted abduction as a child are very relevant here - they may serve to convince, but they may just as well convince the listener that I was suffering from some kind of hallucination or imagination. That is definintely not true. I observed the filthy little buggers for about two weeks indirectly, and caught sight of them twice, briefly, but clearly. Why they did not succeed in abducting me is speculative, but one certain reason is that they were waiting for me to fall asleep, which I did not do, having caught on to their presence before they had the chance, and refusing to fall asleep as long as I knew I was being observed. At that time I'd never heard of a UFO or an alien, and had absolutely no idea what they were. My impression of them was of funny little men in derby hats, a perception too ludicrous for even me to accept. It wasn't until I'd scanned numerous illustrations and accounts that it suddenly struck me that the "hats" I seemed to see in the half darkness corresponded to the bulbous heads and puny ears of these creatures and that the overall shape of the heads was exactly the same as the typical "grey." Now, this is my opinion, I guess, though for me it is fact, and a view held by quite a few others. My belief is that nothing that the "greys" do can be trusted, it cannot even be assumed that the are truly alien. My opinion, and I believe the safest conclusion, is that they correspond in some way to the biblical notion of "demons." I especially concur with Norio Hayakawa and others that the "alien" threat is a precursor to the "great delusion" mentioned in biblical Revelation, and that what we are witnessing is a forerunner to tribulation events. That may not be acceptable to many, but at the least it deserves some very serious thought. And religous or spiritual beliefs aside, the abductions are real, they are heinous, they need to be publicly acknowledged now, and people need to be properly informed. Whatever is going on, it's a serious matter. Al afoos@fpcc.cc.mt.us
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 Re: Aliens are they real? From: JJ Mercieca <mufor@maltanet.net> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:24:19 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 07:52:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Aliens are they real? >From: afoos@fpcc.cc.mt.us (Alan R. Foos) >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Aliens are they real? >Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:33:04 -0600 <snip> >Anyway, I believe it is possible to catch the varmints, much >better to kill a few, but not by the methods I see being >proposed. Also, I would very much like to be involved in >something like this. I do have a plan, but I intend to keep in >confidential. The hardest part is connecting with another <snip> While I have to admit that abducting people from their homes isn't exactly a "nice, good or legal" thing to do, I would certainly not go to the other extreme and "kill a few" aliens. After all, it is sentient beings we are talking about here not rats or insects. This type of "shoot first, ask questions later" may be one of the reasons why open contact hasn't been made. Regards, JJ Mercieca Malta UFO Research http://www.mufor.org/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 P-1947 - Reminder for Project 1947 Preliminary From: Ed Stewart <egs@NETCOM.COM> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:30:05 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:11:35 -0400 Subject: P-1947 - Reminder for Project 1947 Preliminary Hello List Members, Jan Aldrich asked me to remind all those that are providing him with Project 1947 material, research, typing, translations, etc... that the deadline for the receiving of material for inclusion into the Preliminary Report he is preparing is June 10, 1997. Items not received by then will have to be included in the Final Report which is tentatively scheduled for October, 1997 and will not make it into the Preliminary Report. So, even if the material, research, typing, translations, etc... is not complete, please mail or e-mail in whatever partial material you can to him so he has it by June 10th. Jan will be back from Oklahoma this next Tuesday. Thanks, Ed Stewart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart egs@netcom.com | So Man, who here seems principal alone, There is Something | Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) | 'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. --------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 ORTK BULLETIN #28 (Part 3 of 3) From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:59:59 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:35:56 -0400 Subject: ORTK BULLETIN #28 (Part 3 of 3) SUBSCRIBE TO THE ORTK BULLETIN To subscribe to the ORTK BULLETIN send mail to: listserve@awaiter.com with the following text in the body of the message: subscribe ortk-bulletins To unsubscribe, send mail to: listserve@awaiter.com with the following text in the body of the message: unsubscribe ortk-bulletins You can put anything you want in the subject header To reach the list administrator mail to edkomarek@aol.com -------------------------------------------------------- KEVIN RANDLE ON KAL KORFF From: KRandle993@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:17:42 -0400 (EDT) To: updates@globalserve.net Subject: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context I've been waiting to see Kal Korff's book to see if he took my statement about relying only on the public record out of context. What a surprise. He did. The rest of the statement made it clear that I was suggesting that a number of the witnesses had since died. I had the opportunity to speak with them and I know what they told me. That put me one up on everyone. Edwin Easley did tell me that the craft was extraterrestrial. I have the notes of that conversation, which would be sufficient in most arenas to prove the conversation took place. But, since he said the craft was extraterrestrial, that can't be the truth. There must be another explanation. Korff has one, but I know it's wrong. He makes much of Stan Friedman's ridiculous assault of claiming I had made 38 false claims, ignoring the fact that originally it was 38 false claims of Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt. In the latest version I have inherited them all. Incredibly, I didn't even make some of the claims, but who cares. Let the tar fly. I've seen enough of Korff's book to know that similar misrepresentations and half-truths are used throughout. Korff made a big deal that Prometheus has published other books and that as a publisher, they are in business to make money. However, has Prometheus EVER published a book suggesting that UFOs might be real? They publish debunking books about these topics. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:37:24 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:43:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context Before Kal and Kevin get too deep in what promises to be a fascinating exchange. I wonder if Kal would explain why he described Kevin as a "career military officer." What was your source for that, Kal? Greg Sandow (keeping an open mind on Roswell, but knowing that Kevin spent only a limited time in the military)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:48:21 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:32:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? > From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> > To: "UFO Updates (E-mail)" <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Debunker Containment Strategy? > Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:24:01 -0400 > [Greg started my day with a large smile - merci --ebk] Here too.! > I've been busy with nonsense having nothing to do with UFOs, but I > can't resist a comment on.... > > From: EdKomarek@aol.com > > Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 21:59:26 -0400 (EDT) > > To: updates@globalserve.net > > Subject: Debunker Containment Strategy? > < snip > > Now, I don't claim to be an expert on this laundry list of UFO > enemies, but I do know a thing or two about the Weekly World News. I > wrote a feature on it, got to know the editors, and even worked there > for a week. < big snip > > Greg Sandow Now that you are doing investigative journalism pieces Greg. Perhaps you can address the issue why such a well recognized work on the UFO field, Jerome Clark's three volume, The UFO Encyclopedia, does not address the role of the intelligence agencies in the history of the UFO phenomenon and interestingly does [not? -ebk]even index the names of the intelligence agencies in the index. They seem to have been written right out of history in perhaps the most "authoritative" "scholarly" reference on the ufo phenomenon. Is this a chance occurence? How do you explain this? Gary Alevy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 ORTK BULLETIN #28 (Part 2 of 3) From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:59:27 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:34:38 -0400 Subject: ORTK BULLETIN #28 (Part 2 of 3) T. ROY DUTTON'S ASTRONAUTICAL TRACKING OF UFO'S AROUND THE WORLD (Provided by Jennifer Jarvis) T. Roy Dutton's ASTRONAUTICAL THEORY/BIOGRAPHY T. Roy Dutton is a Chartered Engineer, a Member of the Royal Aeronautical Society and a Member of the Institution of Mechanical Engineers. He has spent all of his working life in the British aerospace industry working on many engineering projects commencing with rocketry and advanced space vehicle studies. In 1967, sightings of strange aerial objects began to be reported by many credible witnesses in the Greater Manchester area as well as in other parts of the United Kingdon, and Roy decided to apply his expertise to try to analyse these reports, looking for any possible patterns or commonalities. The study became global and a life long quest. Since retiring in 1991, Roy has devoted much of his time to bringing together all the elements of his study and this has culminated in profound discoveries well beyond his expectations. He has given numerous lectures on the subject and has appeared on Television in both Britain and the United States. His work is also known in other countries including Germany and Japan. He is in the process of producing three videos designed to reveal the full scientific proof that this planet is under constant surveillance by Extraterrestrial intelligences. T. ROY DUTTON'S ASTRONAUTICAL THEORY Roy's years of research have produced a computer programme which can generate timing charts for any given location on the Earth's surface. These charts utilise a double 24-hour time scale, and show the most likely times for UFO Close Encounters and Crop Circle formation. There are two sets of lines on the graphs - one is wavy and the other is straight/sloping. The wavy lines relate (navigationally) to sunset and sunrise, respectively. The two sets of sloping lines are navigationally-linked to two sets of fixed points in the heavens. The times given by the lines appear to be the times of DELIVERY FROM SPACE - or, DEPARTURE from the SURFACE of the EARTH - of the exploration ("scout") craft. The timings model discovered by me indicates that those "scout" vehicles are deposited from space - and retrieved, later - by large spacecraft in short-term SUPER ORBITS. It would seem that the large space-cruisers TEMPORARILY circulate at altitudes of only a few hundred miles. This tactic would minimise the chances of detection and "lock-on" by our radars. So - my scenario assumes that the big ones remain close to the Earth just long enough to deliver and retrieve the small "scouts." I have noticed that, during the period since the 1950's, prolonged Close Encounters often appear to have involved a delivery from an orbit which is, say, sun-linked (wavy timing line) coupled with a retrieval by an orbiter in a star-linked orbit (sloping timing line.) - or VICE VERSA. But, I've also noticed that prolonged CE events only rarely exceed ONE HOUR in duration. So, that's why the crossovers between sun and star orientated track timings are so significant. If the same rules continue to be followed, the date periods on both sides of those cross-overs, wherein the gap between the lines is ONE HOUR or LESS, are indicators to prolonged CE activity. (i.e. abductions and crop-circle creation, etc.) At all other times indicated by the lines, the activity can be expected to be usually only short term, flyover or surveillance activity. (It seems logical to me that, as our technology improved, the ET's found it necessary to introduce new evasive tactics.) REGARDING THE TRACK OPTIONS ON THESE CHARTS: My current technique recognises any track having up to ONE DEGREE of longitude displacement at the same latitude as the target location. Sometimes, if the location has more than SEVEN such TRACKS, the number of tracks is limited to the seven NEAREST TRACKS. REGARDING AIME MICHEL'S WORK OF THE 1950'S: Unlike Michel's distribution lines, my ground-track lines are NOT GREAT CIRCLE ARCS (i.e. straight lines over areas as big as France) but are really small segments of CURVED SPIRALLED PATHS round the Earth. If plotted over France, however, they would approximate VERY closely to straight lines - so some correlation might be waiting to be discovered. Michel's hypothesis was derived from the JOINING of VISUAL ALIGNMENTS of SOME of several locations from which UFO reports had issued in the same 24 hour period. It was, therefore, purely statistical in essence. Michel's work was subsequently debunked by an American mathematician, Dr. Menzel, who showed that the results were not statistically meaningful. In contrast, my work is based on physical postulates. I'm very confident that a latter-day Dr. Menzel would have a much more difficult time if he attempted to apply the same treatment to it. (All such challengers to date have soon given up, overwhelmed by the complexity of the task!) T. Roy Dutton December 2nd, 1995. SUMMARY OF INTERNET WORLD UFO DATA PROCESSING (to end February 1997) T.Roy Dutton. C.Eng. Internet information received fromm UFO researcher Jennifer Jarvis of Milton, Ontario, Canada, has been processed by computer. Of the varied selection of UFO reports from many places in the world, FORTY SEVEN of the reports gave sufficient details to enable them to be processed - the purpose being to check the TIMINGS of the events against the predictions of my ASTRONAUTICAL THEORY FOR UFO CLOSE ENCOUNTERS. The processed data were generally from within the period NOVEMBER 1996 to 9th FEBRUARY 1997, but there were also three cases from October and one from July 1996. During November and December 1996, the reports (generally NOT of Close Encounters) came mainly from the U.S.A., Canada, France and Australia. The U.S.A. and Italy featured in January 1997. From 1st - 9th February 1997, TWELVE processed reports were generated from the U.S.A., France and Chile. (As this analysis was being drawn to a close, a second batch of INTERNET reports was received from the same Canadian source. The reports covered the period 1st - 19th February 1997 and stemmed mainly from Australia. These will be the subject of another Summary when processing of them is complete.) Some very interesting correlations were obtained from the processing of the first batch. It is hoped that, besides the general corroboration of the THEORY which was evident, some insight has also been gained into the operational methods being followed by the perpetrators of the activity. The THEORY identifies fixed navigational markers on the Earth's equator, which may be regarded as being used and, perhaps, overflown, by the visiting spacecraft. The spacecraft's function is conceived to be the programmed delivery and retrieval of the exploration craft (UFO's) seen within the atmosphere. There are apparently 101 key markers on the Equator which have been used by the visiting spacecraft for more than a century. These options are written into the programming. It seems to be significant that this exercise has shown that only a small number (16) of those 101 markers have featured frequently during the processing of these worldwide events. In other words, those track-options identified by my programming as corroborating the timing predictions for specified locations (viz. where the UFO events have occurred) have frequently been related to the same equatorial markers. This observation might be indicative of either, a desire by the perpetrators to minimise the number of markers used in the navigational programming for visits to the targeted locations or, alternatively, the choice of those markers has determined the locations visited during the past few months. T. Roy Dutton, C.Eng., March 1997. NEW INFORMATION RE. 1997 SIGHTINGS REPORTS Several interesting observations have been made about the way that the E.T.'s seem to operate during "wave" periods. For example, some of those key navigation points on the Equator which have been found to link the sightings in recent months, are in very interesting places - such as just east of the MOUTH of the AMAZON RIVER, the west and east coasts of AFRICA (with Lake Victoria and Mount Kenya being key locations between these) and the mountainous centre of Borneo. All these represent excellent visual aiming points for craft approaching from space. It will be interesting to see if they are particularly favoured as the year progresses. I will also be trying to find out whether the E.T.'s favour the sunlit side of the Earth to facilitate visual line-ups with these markers. I have examined your map of Ontario and guessed where the UFO's you have seen might have been located. When I looked up my graph of horizon distances, I realised that your horizon from the shores of the lake would have been only about four miles away. Anyway, the UFO location, I guessed, might be about 20 miles S.E. of Milton (8 miles out from Burlington on the coast.) I ran off the graphs for that location and found that the tracks that served it included some which were outside the Milton catchment area. T. Roy Dutton. 26th March, 1997.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 ORTK BULLETIN #28 (Part 1 of 3) From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:59:10 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:33:47 -0400 Subject: ORTK BULLETIN #28 (Part 1 of 3) ORTK BULLETIN #28 (Part 1 of 3) By Ed Komarek 5/23/1997 INSIDE: MORE ON GREERS BRIEFING OF MEMBERS OF CONGRESS & STAFF (By Rich Boylan). A CONNECTION BETWEEN TODAYS ABDUCTIONS & WITCHCRAFT STORIES FROM HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO? T. ROY DUTTON'S ASTRONAUTICAL TRACKING OF UFO'S AROUND THE WORLD (Provided by Jennifer Jarvis) SUBSCRIBE TO ORTK BULLETIN KEVIN RANDLE ON KAL KORFF ------------------------------------------------------ MORE ON GREERS BRIEFING OF MEMBERS OF CONGRESS & STAFF (BY RICH BOYLAN On April 9, 1997, a closed briefing was given Congressional, White House and other Administration officials on evidence of UFO reality and extraterrestrial presence. A witness revealed that among the dignitaries were Senator Strom Thurmond, Congressman Weingard, and the wife of the CIA Director. Testimony was given by Apollo astronaut Mitchell, Dr. Greer, and two dozen other prime government-insider witnesses. Among those witnesses was Stephen Lovekin, a lawyer from North Carolina who worked with a Top Secret security clearance in the Pentagon during President Eisenhower's White House term during the '50s as a trained cryptologist, and was the military aide who regularly briefed President Eisenhower on UFO evidence and developments. The former military-intelligence official said that Eisenhower became angrier throughout his Presidency, because he was being shut out of the loop about "black technology", reverse-engineered from captured extraterrestrial devices. Lovekin testified that in the basement of the Pentagon, he was shown UFO metal from a downed ET craft, and saw apparent "hieroglyphic"-type ET writing on the metal. Another expert who testifying under oath to the gathered Congressional and White House officials was rocket scientist David Adair, a NASA consultant. Adair stated that he could back up Lovekin's report, because in 1960 he himself was taken 20 stories underground at Area 51 to help figure out how an extraterrestrial engine taken from a UFO worked. On the engine cowling were the identical "hieroglyphic"-like ET symbols which he later saw Lovekin display at the Congressional briefing. Adair said that they eventually identified the UFO device as an electro- magnetic fusion-containment engine. Dr. Greer has learned that one-third of the policy cabal controlling UFO information, a group variously known as MJ-12 and PI-40, wish public disclosure of UFO reality, while the rest do not support such initiative. Additionally, eight National Security insiders, including Navy and Air Force intelligence officers, told Dr. Greer that Star Wars weapons are being used to destroy UFOs approaching Earth. A further glimpse into the military's secretive obsession with UFO technology was provided by retired Air Force Colonel Steve Wilson in late May, 1997, in response to reports of a huge UFO over Phoenix in mid-May. Colonel Wilson, who formerly headed the Air Force's Project Pounce [UFO recovery teams], said that there has been a stringent "lock-down" on Air Force personnel discussing UFOs since January 3, 1994. That was the date the military began publicly flying the enormous Black Triangle antigravity craft, which the Colonel said were back- engineered from UFOs. Richard Boylan, Ph.D. 2826 O Street, Suite 2, Sacramento, CA 95816, USA. (916) 455-0120 E-mail: rich.boylan@24stex.com ; Primary website: www.ufonetwork.com/boylan/ Author of: Close Extraterrestrial Encounters, Labored Journey To The Stars and Project Epiphany. ------------------------------------------------------ A CONNECTION BETWEEN TODAYS ABDUCTIONS & WITCHCRAFT STORIES FROM HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO. For those interested in UFO abductions throughout history the post by Blue at this site is very interesting. Apparently Brother Blue is posting excerpts of books that abductees may be interested in getting their hands on. I had not thought too much about the relationship of past Witch stories and the modern abduction phenomenon. Below is a excerpt from Brother Blues post located at: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/iufo/1997/may/u18-001.shtml Titled: Those Silly Space Alien Sex Manics snip: The resemblance between modern UFO abduction reports and ancient accounts of demonic visitations are striking, indeed. Ulrich Molitor's De Laniis et phitonicis mulieribus (1489) shows the first known engravings of demons who abduct and then have sexual relations with humans. Olaus Magnus' Historia de gentibus septentrionalibus (1555) contained engravings of the devil and demons carrying women (witches) away for sex. The early accounts of these are similar to UFO abductions; however, in that era it was not seen as a good thing to happen to you (as contrasted to many UFO abductees who view it as a positive and special experience). In the early days of the church, people who told of having visitations by "demons" were tolerated. Somewhat later, they were fined or removed from the church. It was in the 15th century that the church was no longer content to simply throw the "witches" and "sorcerers" out of the church. From that point onward they sought to wring confessions out of suspected witches and then burn or hang the accused. To have sex with a demon meant you were a witch or a sorcerer. Witches almost always had sexual relations with the demons or Satan himself and they were said to have some power over elemental demons. It is the lower orders of the demons that supposedly take on the appearance of UFO-like beings and fairies. In fact, in many of the witch trials in the 15th and 16th centuries, the "lower orders" of demons were described as leprechauns, gnomes, and other fairies. According to this ancient witch lore, Satan and demons had their favorite humans for sex. Both women and men were abducted for sex, but women were favored. Most victims were unwillingly abducted in their bedrooms at night. Many victims described several demons (of different types) being present at the time of their abduction. Some of the demons "stood by" just watching during the act. The first written mention of Satan himself forcing sex on a victim was probably at the trials of Artois. The writer Vignate (1468) chronicled the trial. Here too, was the first mention of Satan's sexual organ as being cold as ice. This statement is similar to what some UFO abductees have said about their abductors who forced sex on them -- particularly the insects or grasshopper-like creatures. Far more frequent was mention of sexual intercourse forced on victims by demons known as incubus or succubus. "Essentially the incubus is a lewd demon or goblin which seeks sexual intercourse with women ...the corresponding devil which appears to man is the succubus" (Dictionary of Witchcraft & Demonology). Guazzo's (1608) Compendium Maleficarum stated: "(The demon) can assume either a male or female shape; sometimes he appears as a full-grown man, sometimes as a satyr." St. Augustine firmly believed that demons abducted people and forced sexual relations on them: "(Demons) have often injured women, desiring and acting carnally with them." Virtually no one disputed the existence of these sex-seeking demons. Martin Del Rio (1599) wrote of the reality of incubus in the Disquisitionum Magicarum, "...to disagree (with their existence) is only obstinacy and foolhardiness; for it is the universal opinion of the fathers, theologians, and writers on philosophy, the truth of which is generally acknowledged by all ages and peoples." Peter Binsfeld's De Confessione Maleficarum (1589) stated, "(The incubus) is an indisputable truth which is not only proved most certain by experience, but also is confirmed by history.." ::: Ancient Crossbreeding & Genetic Experimentation ::: Just like modern UFO abductors do, demons have long been collecting sperm samples from male victims. According to the ancient reports, the succubus gathers semen from the male victims so that the demon can fully perform the sex act and sometimes impregnate its female victim when acting as an incubus. In Thomas Aquinas' 13th century book Summa Theologica he wrote: "...if sometimes children are born from intercourse with demons, this is not because of the semen emitted by them, or from the bodies they have assumed, but through the semen taken from some man for this purpose, seeing that the same demon who acts as a succubus for a man becomes an incubus for a woman." It was believed even then that a crossbreeding of sorts was occurring between the demons (fairies) and humans. Tradition has it that the magician Merlin was the result of crossbreeding between Satan and a human female. And most readers are familiar with the many matings of the Greek and Roman "gods" with humans. Their offspring spurred many of the great legends and myths of old. For several thousand years there have been reports of alien abduction for sexual purposes. Because of the number of reports coming from early church members, much attention was given the phenomenon during the 1200s and 1300s. Here are a few summaries by the church from this time period: De Trinitate: "Devils do indeed collect human semen...therefore devils can transfer the semen which they have collected and inject it into the bodies of others." Bonaventura wrote: "Devils in the form of women yield to males and receive their semen; by cunning skill, the demons preserve its potency, and afterwards,...they become incubi and pour it into female repositories." Just as in modern UFO reports, the incubus desiring to have sex with a human will adjust its shape to one that lowers resistance of its victim. In 1698 Johann Klein reported on a court case where a woman claimed to have been impregnated by her long-gone husband. A creature taking his form appeared to her at night in her bedroom where she simply couldn't resist. Many other victims of an incubus claimed that the incubus appeared to them as a person (deceased) they knew and loved. Some of the most interesting reports about the incubus come from nuns. During the mid-1400s, many nuns in certain sites were victims of incubus attacks with the nuns often displaying amnesia over the event. The copious amounts of semen present left no doubt that something physical actually happened. Other accounts of incubus attacks leave one with the definite impression that something physical was happening rather than the experience being a purely psychological event. One impressive account had numerous witnesses. The writer Sinistrari wrote of a nun that was locked into a small, nearly barren cell after dinner. She was alone when they closed the door; shortly thereafter, however, sounds of passion (between two people) came from the cell. When the cell was immediately opened for inspection, no one but the nun was in it. Another nun then bored a small hole through the wall and was astonished to see a youth "appear" on the bed with the nun. Quietly, the nun gathered other sisters to view the scene in the cell between the locked-up nun and the "youth." When they went back into the cell, the youth again disappeared. However, the nun confessed that she had been intimate with an incubus for some time and that he appeared as the youth that they had seen. None of the nuns recognized the youth, nor was he seen again. In addition, that report indicated that there was no way that anyone could escape the cell holding the nun. He simply appeared and then vanished. Another interesting feature of medieval witch reports that parallels modern UFO reports is the so-called Devil's mark. This is not the same thing as a witch's mark, but is rather a mark conferred upon victims by the devil himself. According to ancient beliefs, the devil marks his victims for identification. The mark is scratched on the victim with a talon. The marks are usually a straight scar in an odd spot, typically not seen without some difficulty, or some sort of a tattoo. Daneau (1564) stated in Les Sorciers that, "(Not a witch exists) upon whom (the devil or a demon) doth not set some note or token of his power and prerogative over them." Sinistrari's De Demonialitate stated that the mark of the devil..."is imprinted on the most secret parts of the body." Were we not in "modern" times, the marks seen on many UFO abductees would be seen as the marks of the devil. Cuts on the back of the leg, purplish circular spots, bruises, circles of warts and spots surrounding the abdomen and genitals, facial holes, and nasal cavity holes all would have qualified. These were the exact same marks and areas of the body used for the Devil's mark. These are also similar to the "fairy bruises." ::: Musings On Abductions ::: For a number of reasons, most people studying UFO abductions are deeply disturbed by the parallels between ancient and modern UFO abduction reports. They are so disturbed that they refuse to even see that any relationships exist. I am astonished at how many contemporary investigators -- professionals who should know better -- simply refuse to see the historical perspective of this phenomenon. It is easy to be smug and say, "This is different, we aren't superstitious anymore, these are modern times." But in 500 years a lot of what we deeply believe will be laughed at and ridiculed. Snip
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 Alfred"s Odd Ode #138 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 07:08:00 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:42:49 -0400 Subject: Alfred"s Odd Ode #138 Apology to MW #138 (For May 23, 1997) There is more that is hiding in our science unbrave Than abductions, and starships -- cheap power! There is agony building that none of us crave, And it blooms for the future =96 a virulent flower! =20 It=92s the money=92s the issue because money is stew, And folks are not making fair wage! Let the alien view draw the spell far from you And look on an alternate page. . . ~ The old man lived alone in a cold water walk-up, harboring a misery not understood in a present age where a lucky majority can pay its bills.=20 His possessions had been confiscated, his property seized, and his savings liquidated to cover living costs that he _thought_ he had provided for. He was the last of his name left; the last of the hated "Boomers."=20 His wife and friends were dead in a triad of disease, euthanasia, and suicide. His children were hacked to pieces in the "Rain Forest Wars" of 2010, and their death was preferable, or his disability would have crippled them -- increasing an already monstrous burden, and eroding, further, their own bleak futures. The care of his own parents had taken a sizable chunk of his discretionary income, and they had been _prepared_. His wife was dead to the latest AID's variant, or she would be with him now sharing the anticipated Death Experience. In a few days he was slated for termination in an authoritarian government=92s mandated program of "Geriatric Renewal."=09 It was late in the year 2028, and the weight of that year bore down with a crushing inevitability on the lonely, sick old man. The weight of that burden was unendurable, insidious, and tragically ironic in its complete avoidability. And it had been, he thought to himself, so avoidable. The life that afflicted him now was a condition that he, and others like him, had thoughtlessly, gleefully, yet *ironically* created. He had worked tirelessly to engineer this crises of biblical proportion in his last quarter century, a crisis that popped, at last, the smirking snot bubble of an arrogant, sociopathic mankind. At that final termination, Overpopulation, with its blood relatives Economic Collapse, and Environmental Catastrophe, delivered a knockout blow to the weak chin of an earthbound human society. Ending all rationalization, LIFE had become too much to bear because the old man had, ironically, helped make life too much to be borne! =20 Early in the twentieth century humankind began to generate itself into all corners of available planetary space. The old man, sick and choking on his moldy cot, was reminded of dated television documentaries that featured breeding pairs of mice allowed to reproduce without limit into a large well provisioned cage. The mice reacted in what was ultimately a disturbing, and unnatural manic violence. So did man. Respect for privacy was the first casualty, evolving into vicious, but official, strangers dragging the old man, and his wife from their home periodically, beating them savagely, and making them watch as their possessions were passed around to dirty hands. Street gangs controlled huge sections of major cities, splattering the countryside with their colors of blood and rage. The rest ate food rationed in lines that seemed unending. Electrical brownout was a twenty-four hour occurrence, but outage was more likely. The new, and not so new dead lay stacked in forlorn tattered piles covered with a few inches of septic earth. There was more than a dalliance into cannibalism by people he knew (the details are difficult to dwell on); more than once he had been tempted to try it himself. Oh, and good Christ. . .the disease. The old man knew this horror was shockingly unnecessary. The smallest amount of educational effort could have reversed this trend to abusive overpopulation, and he would now be living in a comparative Eden. But that was an old dream, drenched in a current reality=92s tragic, fetid essence. Overpopulation hastened an economic collapse that would have occurred anyway. The later part of the twentieth century was witness to a minority of people that redefined slothful conservative indifference to the manipulations of their lives, or a majority that scratched ferally at mean subsistence . The old man *learned* early to see fidelity, and commitment to genuine excellence, as virtues that had outlived usefulness. He cursed in bitter silence at the short-sighted and suicidal situation he had selfishly made, ironically, for himself. He was the predatory business ethic selling dangerous equipments that blew up on the operation. He was behind the appliances that bathed consumers with lethal radiations in their squalid homes. He was behind the Bank frauds, and contractual abuses of all kinds that wasted the innocence and increased the guile of a gullibly ignorant humankind. He and the rest of his slothful generation practiced corrosive distortions of=20 "doing your own thing," as members of a narcissistic "me generation," in trust-less "laid back" decades that steadily squandered the fiscal and emotional savings of the entire planet. A procrastinating spend-borrow-spend mentality occurred that ran the world debt up to a point where it just-could-not be paid. The final, and inevitable collapse created a world of whining suicides leaving the more courageous among them holding the bags of their currupt and selfish bones.=20 Overnight, the United States became a third rate pseudo-power, a laughing stock, and a liability to be cashiered. The betrayed and abused third world bolted in like a starving shark. . . He smelled the festering dead outside through a broken window, remembering that this fiscal hell could have been avoided for pennies a day if human beings had started soon enough -- as late as 1997. Overpopulation ushered the final ecological crisis to its predicted conclusion. Environmental abuse turned major slashes of the fragile planet into open, steaming, and virulent toxic cisterns. Industrial waste killed the oceans outright, so it was only a matter of time until the rest of the planet began to follow in a slower, more agonizing fashion. Babies of all kinds, human and animal, were born misshapen and grotesque, or dead if they were born at all. Water became more precious than an equal volume of cut diamonds. The myriad colors green disappeared with other examples of natural color; all that remained were washed out copric browns and dirty grays. Humankind injected poisons deeply into the ecosystems of the globe, rendering it sterile and uninhabitable. There was little "breath of life" left on the planet; there was only a pervading odor of the last forced gasp of a corpse. Still, an elite lived like ticks on the bloated carcass in their insulated, and filtered environs, looking for ways to profit from their well engineered situation. There was no question about it. Proud humankind spent its last two decades defecating in bed and pushing it down with its feet, the old man thought, miserably. It was almost laughable that the world had had obvious proof of the avoidable consequences of environmental inaction, but they (he) would not make the SMALLEST sacrifice to preclude the moronic inevitability of it. =20 The old man lay on his dirty cot, waited to die, and wished fervently for a chance to live his broken life over. But the solutions that he knew would have precluded this disaster were in the past. These would have been tiny things, he reflected in well worn bitterness.=20 If he had voted with a majority to elect men and women to government that worried more about doing the job than getting elected to do it, the misery could have been avoided. If he had voted to tax all of the social security of the moderately affluent (assuming fiscal responsibility of the windfall), or if he had campaigned against the concept of early retirement, then perhaps there would have been some money to pay off the huge debts that he had helped to incur. If he had supported programs to hold a foot to the necks of the medical and legal institutions, or if he had supported measures to reform the Health Care System -- encouraged Corporate America to end sex, age, and race discrimination (refuse _their_ welfare!), the situation would be more bearable. If he had held that bastard tool of predatory business, Bush, to his empty promise as the Education President, or supported other measures to enliven the educational infrastructure, he would not be in this sad, sorry, and senseless state. =20 If he had taken better care of himself physically, or exercised, and eaten more intelligently, perhaps he could have evaded the liabilities of his racking poor health. If he had not been one of the self-serving, short - term - solution sycophants, he would have contributed to the World. Instead, as the last "Baby Boomer," he was a symbol of its humiliating failure. And he knew at the end, with deep and profound regret, that his was not a positive relationship that he had had with his people, his nation, or with his planet. There was only one word that would adequately describe that tragic old man=92s contribution, and the acrid tears ran down his dirty face. =20 The word was . . . parasite.=20 ~=09 You waited too long to begin all your saving? You put it all off till the saving=92s not done? Then interesting times are ahead for the braving, And not in a good way; I=92m meaning no fun. Better put it away, now, while you=92re able. Put it away when you can, =91cause it pays. Put it away for your home, or your table. Put it away for those sad rainy days. The government=92s here to distribute our take. And that=92s bad, but it=92s a way to make strain matter. Without taxes in place to tax for poor=92s sake -- Trickle _Up=92s_ the result, only _fat_ getting fatter! Lehmberg@snowhill.com "The poor must be trained to poverty." Johann Heinrich Pestalozzi =96 A taproot dean of our education system. Don=92t be fooled by the laudatory comments a biased historical account will provide. His own words paint him as a social darwinist, and nowhere near as pro-social as one is led to believe.=20 --=20 "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake. Could it be that he died completely in vain? =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1= =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1= =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1 Government or Social Harassment REPORT - Presently, "ZERO" HARASSMENT
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 Amurika Online Looney-ness From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:39:36 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:39:36 -0400 Subject: Amurika Online Looney-ness This message is specifically aimed at 27 AOL users who subscribe to UpDates. I've removed everything except the first three characters before the '@' in the 27 addresses below to avoid adding to their difficulties <G> They'll know who they are..... ebk _______________________________________________ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 02:36:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@aol.com> To: <updates@globalserve.net> Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure) The original message was received at Fri, 23 May 1997 01:09:51 -0400 (EDT) from nexus.globalserve.net [205.206.120.99] If your mail was returned due to a potentially misspelled AOL e-mail address, we may be able to assist you in finding the correct address. Point your WWW browser at http://www.idot.aol.com/search/ Here you will find instructions and a simple form to help you locate the email address you are looking for! NOTE: we cannot and will not divulge private information about members. Please only use the search resource if you believe that you may have misspelled a member's e-mail address. -AOL Postmaster ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- <Tua@aol.com> <Lin@aol.com> <hon@aol.com> <kra@aol.com> <Ski@aol.com> <KAn@aol.com> <ktp@aol.com> <Dol@aol.com> <Tot@aol.com> <MIT@aol.com> <Joc@aol.com> <PSa@aol.com> <JGB@aol.com> <Ste@aol.com> <GINaol.com> <Tik@aol.com> <EdK@aol.com> <don@aol.com> <Dia@aol.com> <DRu@aol.com> <Drz@aol.com> <Soc@aol.com> <BPe@aol.com> <NUF@aol.com> <C4i@aol.com> <BPl@aol.com> [Again, bear in mind I shortened the above addresses for the purposes of _this_ post - ebk] ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to jpin03.mail.aol.com.: >>> MAIL From:<updates@globalserve.net> <<< 503 Bad Sequence of commands 554 <snip> Service unavailable ----- Original message follows ----- Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:08:59 -0400 To: updates@globalserve.net From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Huge UFO Over Ireland Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:26:44 +0200 To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> From: Alfred Breull <puma@hannover.sgh-net.de> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Huge UFO Over Ireland >Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:13:27 +0100 >To: UFO UpDates <updates@mail.globalserve.net> >From: Joe McNally <fortean3@easynet.co.uk> >Subject: That Irish UFO sighting >Forwarded from one of Fortean Times' Irish contacts, Daev Walsh: > >>Well, it appears that Mr. Rosenthal's email address is a fake. >>areatech.org doesnn't even exist. > > --- snip -- Well done, good work: quick & efficient. Alf Search for other documents from or mentioning: mailer-daemon | tua | lin | hon | kra | ski | kan | ktp | dol | tot | mit | joc | psa | jgb |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 23 Re: Karl Pflock's now Open Message to Stan Friedman From: Ktperehwon@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:09:06 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:27:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Karl Pflock's now Open Message to Stan Friedman I think UFO UpDaters will find this post-posting exchange between Friedman and I interesting. Plz. feel free to distribute at will. -- Cheers, KARL ----------- Ktperehwon@aol.com [Karl Pflock] wrote [May 20, 1997, e-mail heads up to STF: > STAN -- This morning I posted the following on several UFO newsgroups. -- > KARL > ------------------------------- > Tuesday, May 20, 1997 > To those who may be interested: > In mid-March, after discovering my colleague Stan Friedman had, on the > February version of his web site, grossly misrepresented my views and the > whys of the evolution of my views on the Roswell non-crash/retrieval of a > flying saucer, I sent him a lengthy e-mail message detailing his errors. I > asked that he post this message on his site.... [To: Pflock] Karl: Today is May 22 and your posting is apparently on many newsgroups. I can't seem to get through to you that I haven't had time to do the careful job that should be done re Todd, Marcel, Korff etc. I hope to get to it. You sound a bit like a spoiled brat who wants his ice cream NOW.I had been asked by many people if I didn't think you were still CIA. I had honestly stated that I don't know and have seen no evidence that you were. It is in my gray basket. Why this offends you I don't know. I have indeed said there would have been no GAO stuff without you.. that doesn't mean I have to give you 100% of the credit. A recent conversation with Bill Brazel certainly suggest that the storm in questions was just before his dad got involved not a month earlier etc etc. But I don't have the time.. I have been gone as I have noted. so you will just have to spread your story far and wide.Responding to you is NOT on the top of my priority list.Please feel free to post this response to all the groups.As it happens my web site guy is out of town. The site is my forum not yours. Very hastily, Stan Friedman ----------------- May 22, 1997 - e-mail KTP to STF: STAN -- All I asked for was that you deal with me as a colleague, fairly and honestly. Time? How much time would it take to post something already written? Excuse me for presuming you were genuinely interested in the truth and in fair dealing. -- KARL ----------------- May 23, 1997 - e-mail from STF to KTP: > Excuse me for presuming you were genuinely interested in the truth and in > fair dealing. -- KARL Karl: Hopw fair is it to put out a detailed commentary to me and have it immediately spread all over the internet before I have even seen it? I still don't understand your original complaint. I don't have an interest group. I have a web page. Your initial concerns were NOT clear. Would you have been happier if I had said I couldn't find any evidence you weren't still connected? How can you possibly claim that 25 documents only 2 of which were TS and none of which were SCI prove there was no crash? You certainly know better than that.Your body explanations are totally tortured.. and as I said a long time ago you have basically said a whole host of people were liars... but Kal and Todd are truth tellers.. Sorry. I don't buy it. .. but I guess I will have to wait for your book along with Korff's, Corso's, Klass'.I do have Mantle-Hesemann Stan Friedman ----------------- May 23, 1997 - e-mail from KTP to STF: STAN -- I e-mailed you my "commentary" on March 16. I put exactly the same message--with an intro and a bit of editing only for clarity and typos (missed at least one of those)--on the newsgroups. You were NOT blindsided. All you're doing is making excuses. What has become of the Stan Friedman I used to know? BTW, I think you'll like my review of Korff's book in the June MUFON JOURNAL. -- Sincerely, KARL
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 24 Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 20:14:14 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:29:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? >Date: 20 May 97 16:51:46 EDT >From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? >>Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:33:17 -0400 >>From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? I have been reading James Diss' postings, and especially his exchange with Gary Alevy, with tremendous disdain. Diss is treating other contributors on this list without any respect, writes without any coherence, claims he knows things without ever proving that and seems uninformed about UFOs and related matters to begin with. Here are a few examples from a recent posting. >Gary penned; It is: 'Gary wrote', mister Dish, er... Diss. >>Even if you were deliberately spreading incorrect information >>it does not entitle you to any goverment position, do you often >>fantasize about working for the government? >Well, actually I did for a while, but then I understand that >there are a huge number of people involved in government, then >support services, industries etc. I fantasise about world peace, >but I understand that doesn't make me a bad person. Y'see I drew >the parallel from a comment you made that I'll reproduce below; > >>Oh and as to the government only having a > >>"nodding acquaitance" with the UFO phenomenon > >>- that's either ignorance or intentional deception >The inference of 'intentional deception' is usually called >'disinformation', with 'ignorance' getting the almost similar >'misinformation'. I can understand that their impact has been > somewhat reduced, but I did slightly resent the 'shoot first, > ask questions later' method of debate. No matter, we'll just > move on. Incoherent gibberish. >>There are many other explanations for this behavior, >>counter-intelligence agent isn't necessarily in the top ten. >Please give us a rundown of the top-ten. I'll even let you >know if you're close. Highschool playground arrogance. >>Thats a pretty inappropriate response, your usual let's waste the time >>of people on this list by dodging the issue. >Actually a less than direct challenge than the paragraph >above. Tell me whether it's dis or mis, Gary. It's Diss missing the point. >>You extrapolate just to ignore the point that you were wrong in your >>original statement. >Answer me this one, so we don't get entrenched into >gainsaying for fun and profit. How many classified >projects lasted thirty years (the 1995 Clinton HR cut-off >date and a well known intelligence 'benchmark') before >they ended up leaked or revealed? In fact there are many leaks, every serious student of this phenomenon knows that. >How many fifty year old ones? >>I know that scientists were involved but you tried to convey in your >>original post that goverment scientists weren't involved. So when a >>point of fact is made that shows your statement was erroneous you are >>off on a tangent about an irrelevant topic. Perhaps you have difficulty >>focusing on a topic. > >Hang on a cotton pickin' minute here. Just because the >government commissions a report on the Greenhouse effect >doesn't mean they're au fait with the complexities >involved, Indeed the republicans tried to reduce the >committment to recording such changes as unproven science. >Government's record on supporting scientific research in >ANY country has been bitty, misinformed and in some cases >downright ludicrous. Teller was brought in as a _consultant_. >Hynek was brought in as a _consultant_. >If you have doubts about this, then check with Alan Holt >how much support was given to him during the investigation >of Cash-Landrum and how much interest his field propulsion >has received from AIAA. I was suggesting that _evidence_ >suggests that governmental agencies have a 'nodding >aquaintance' rather than the indepth interest claimed by >some proponents of government coverup. I take it that you >don't think that _tonnes_ of paperwork should have been >generated over crashed disks? Given the fact that items >of interest become declassified by accident, then hastily >reclassified, don't you think we should have stumbled across >more than _one_ mention of Majic/Majestic? You apparently never heard of the MJ 12 Training Manual. >>Why acknowledge something that you originally stated didn't exist? >Where did I state they didn't exist? Kindly quote >the passage back to me. >>Is there any integrity in the statements you post to this list? >Bucketloads, but you have to read them. I don't. >>I'm losing faith that I'll be able to >>read your posts without doing fact checking. >You don't already? Why I could claim that I have aliens in >a jar and you'd believe me? If you would claim that I think that few people would believe you. >Gee, and here I was thinking that there was a propensity >for checking things out here. >>Another irrelevant response, speak man whats really on your mind? >Hypocrisy, mainly. Our posts may cross on this subject, so >I'll let it lie for a moment. >>Let's play a game, I'll answer no so you can show everyone how clever >>you are. This last remark was by Gary Alevy who asked Diss to explain what DI61 meant. In a previous post Diss glibly asked Alevy if he knew what DI61 was to "test" his knowledge of government cover ups. Alevy asked Diss to explain it himself. Diss apparently did not do this and I think I know why. DI 61 means: Diss' postings on UFO Updates are Devoid of Information whether you read them once or 61 times. __________________________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Leiden, The Netherlands \___________________________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 24 Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's Ufologists Are Real From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:24:06 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:32:10 -0400 Subject: Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's Ufologists Are Real Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's UFOlogists Are Real Patriots This excerpt was taken from the May 1997 issue of Georgia Sky Watch. The article was written by John C. Thompson MUFON State Director for Georgia. "George Filer, MUFON's eastern regional director recently just returned from testifying before staff members of Congress and the current administration in Washington D.C. George is a retired Air Force major." "Astronaut Edgar Mitchell also participated in the talks. It was George Filer's honor to have a private one-on-one twenty minute talk with the famous moon-walker. Edgar told him that those in the UFO camp that are investigating and pushing for more UFO research are the real patriots in this country. So stand tall when you say you are a Ufologist." ________________ In reverse I think we could say that those UFO/ET debunkers connected to various black projects should be considered treasonous public enemies. This for deliberately disinforming and propagandizing the people. This UFO/ET propaganda and psycological warfare assault is contrary to the American Republic and against everything the Constitution stands for. A free people cannot be free if they are not informed and unable to make good decisions. I think those of us that are informed can now see that there is a loosely organized effort underway to discredit Roswell by any means necessary. This effort must be opposed at every turn. The best, Ed Komarek ------------------------------- To subscribe to the ORTK BULLETIN by Ed Komarek send mail to: listserve@awaiter.com with the following text in the body of the message: subscribe ortk-bulletins To unsubscribe, send mail to: listserve@awaiter.com with the following text in the body of the message: unsubscribe ortk-bulletins You can put anything you want in the subject header To reach the list administrator mail to edkomarek@aol.com -------------------------------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 24 The Surrey, British Columbia, Corridor From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 21:24:31 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:35:50 -0400 Subject: The Surrey, British Columbia, Corridor Received this from "alt.paranet.ufo" May 23 at 9.03 am, CET: Date: 23 May 1997 05:15:09 GMT From: boliver@Direct.CA (Bill Oliver) Subject: Surrey Corridor The Surrey Corridor From South Fraser BC Woman Magazine - Holiday Issue 1995 LIGHTS IN THE SKY by Susan Boyce It cuts a strip between King George Hwy. and Scott Road and runs from the US border to the north edge of New Westminster. It's known as the Surrey-Delta Corridor, and it's a hotbed of UFO sightings and unexplainable phenomenon. "We receive an incredible number of reports from this area," says Michael Strainic, [Canadian] National Director of the Texas-based organization called MUFON (Mutual UFO Network Inc.). Even so, he estimates only one out of every ten people who see a UFO actually file a report. Graham Conway, retired police officer and member of MUFON, believes this is in part because people have no idea where to report a UFO sighting. "One man phoned the airport, the RCMP, his local police station, and finally the Planetarium before he found our number," he says. "Most people would have given up long before that." But there is another, perhaps more universally human, reason for hesitation - fear. One woman, worried about ridicule from her co-workers refused to comment on record. Many others have only agreed to discuss their experiences under an assumed name. "You can't talk to many people about it," says Tim Moraes of North Delta. "But with so many stars, there must be other life out there. Skeptics need to see a UFO before they pass judgment." "There's still a stigma involved," agrees Bill Oliver of Surrey. On three occasions during May and June of 1995 Oliver videotaped a brilliant white object zigzagging across the sky above his home. "It would change from a small intense dot to an acorn shape," he says. "When we used a computer to invert the dot image into a negative, it looked just like a classic saucer with a black ring around it." Moraes describes a UFO he believes followed the car in which he and four friends were sitting for more than ten minutes last summer in the Sunshine Hills area as having a fluid nature. "It had no uniform shape," he says. "It was changing all the time. Like Kaleidoscope imaging, the lights kept moving and shifting." In contrast, Malcolm Corey, a retired Canadian Air Force armament gunsight technician, describes a large, glowing red ball that flew south over his White Rock home in early November. "It was traveling quite slowly and varied its trajectory, wandering from side to side," he reports. "There appeared to be black stubby rotuberances on either side, but they weren't large enough in comparison to the ball itself to be wings." Corey has more than 1,100 hours of air time and a long history of UFO sightings beginning in the early '50s when he joined the military. "I was in my car returning to the airbase at North Bay,(Ontario)," he says. "I came around a corner and there was an object 250 feet across and 50 to 60 feet thick hovering 300 feet above the highway." He remembers the trees thrashing wildly and was having trouble keeping his car under control. He looked away for several seconds, and when he looked back, the object had vanished. Corey reported the incident to his commander, who walked outside and pointed skyward at several red and white lights circling each other. "Apparently they'd been there since midnight," says Corey. "Every time we scrambled planes to investigate, they blinked out and disappeared until the planes were gone. "It's a fascinating subject, but oftentimes you feel like you're chasing will'o the wisps," he continues. "The military and scientific communities tend to look at it with something of a jaundiced eye. If they just said , 'Look, you've got something interesting, but we don't have a clue what it is', my intelligence wouldn't be insulted. It's being ridiculed that gets annoying." Theories about the reasons a presumably advanced civilization would visit Earth are plentiful. Some suggest idle curiosity; some believe they may be stealing energy to replenish the supply on their home world; still others postulate interdimensional implications. "Maybe they are coexisting in the same space but at a different vibrational level," says Corey. "If we do something to damage the Earth in this dimension, it could have an effect there." Maybe, as Michael Strainic suggests, there is a metaphoric message we are unable to interpret. "Some of our better witnesses have said things like, 'I felt as if I was being subjected to some kind of elaborate theatre, staged for my benefit,'" he says. "The message is there, but we can't see it." Perhaps the message isn't even meant for us. "What if these beings are not just thousands but tens of thousand years more advanced than we are?" Strainic asks. "It would be like us looking at a culture growing in a petri dish. We might study it and watch it, but we wouldn't try to set up diplomatic relations with it." But there is another, darker side to the question of why UFOs might visit Earth. More than 180 people in the Lower Mainland alone have reported being abducted by aliens for bizarre and painful experimentation and even theft of human genetic material. "One theory is that they - whoever 'they' are - feel we're on the road to self-destruction and are preserving us for epopulation," says Conway. "The second theory is that they have their own breeding problem now and are trying to correct it." Whatever the motivation, there has always been a strong connection between UFOs and power lines, and the Surrey-Delta Corridor is no exception - a BC Hydro power line runs right through the centre of it. "We often see UFOs near satellites, microwave stations, dams and mines," Conway points out. "Anything that creates an energy field may be opening a doorway, but that is a guess." As speculation continues, the controversy grows. Are advanced beings watching Earth, ready to step in before it can self-destruct, carrying alternate dimensions with it? Is Earth an unwilling source of genetic material for a superior extraterrestrial race, or simply an interesting if primitive species worthy of casual and sporadic observation? Are we even able to comprehend the truth? And, as the inhabitants of this planet continue reaching into the depths of space, what will the beings of distant worlds say of the unidentified lights in their skies?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 24 Re: BWW Media Alert 970523 From: BufoCalvin@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:11:42 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:32:55 -0400 Subject: Re: BWW Media Alert 970523 Bufo Calvin, P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com 510-432-8102 (voice, fax, and recorded messages) TAP (The Address Project) NEARU (National Events by Area Registry of the Unexplained) Bufo's WEIRD WORLD (paper and electronic newsletter) ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert for non-commercial purposes) May 23, 1997 I'm stoked, because I've seen the FATE magazine piece! You can read more about it below, but it is exciting to me. They asked "experts" about what they thought was the most significant UFO event of the past fifty years, and I'm going to ask you! E-mail your answer to that question here (please keep it short), and I'll post the results. This week, it's not surprising to see dinosaur tie-ins to the release of the JURASSIC PARK sequel, but there also seems to be a psychic detective theme going on. Also, you can just set your VCR to extended play on Sunday on TLC, if you want a bunch of UFO documentaries. I'm trying to get this out in time to let your know about a radio show I didn't list last week...I had intended to send out a supplement, but this might do it. On the syndicated Art Bell show tonight (Friday), at 11:00 PM Pacific, Art interviews Sean David Morton and "Victor" about the about to be commercially-released video which supposedly shows an alien being interrogated at Area 51. STRANGE UNIVERSE ran a bit of it...didn't impress me, but I'm sure there will be a lot of talk on the net about the interview. FICTIONAL NOTES: This is where I briefly cover items which are fictional but which I feel are worth mentioning, either because of the impact they have had on the field or vice versa. I don't list weekly shows, just special items. If you want info on the weekly fictional shows, see Rebecca Keith�s excellent CNI NEWS MEDIA WATCH at http://www.cninews.com. VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA will have the "The Lobster Man" episode, in which the Seaview recovers a UFO...SCIFI on Tuesday at 7:00 AM. Nickelodeon has one of the HAPPY DAYS episodes with Robin Williams as Mork from Ork on Friday at 8:30 PM. This one had a great description: "Aliens transform into adult stars, make infomercial"...RAINWOMAN 10 on Spice on Monday at 3:00 AM. On Friday, SHOWTIME 2 runs THE LEGEND OF GATOR FACE, exploiting swamp monster mythology, at 5:05 AM. AMC has THE BEAST FROM 20,000 FATHOMS (very, very loosely based on a short story by Ray Bradbury) on Saturday at 6:30 AM. HBO runs CONEHEADS on Saturday at 9:30 AM. This week, it's STARZ turn for the Spielberg bigfoot movie, HARRY AND THE HENDERSONS: Sunday at 4:45 AM. TMC has MAGIC IN THE WATER, the Mark Harmon lake monster movie at 9:05 AM Sunday...gee, if one of you watches it, do you think they'll take it out of heavy rotation? :)...repeated 7:15 PM Sunday. HBO has THE ARRIVAL on Monday at 3:30 PM. Encore runs THE VALLEY OF GWANGI, a fun, Ray Harryhausen, cowboys and surviving dinosaurs (and mischronologically matched prehistoric mammals) story on Monday at 4:15 PM. BOOKS* WHERE BIGFOOT WALKS* by Robert Michael Pyle, ISBN 0-395-44114-5. I've just completed reading this one, although it came out in 1995. It demonstrates how establishing yourself in the mainstream can lead to opportunities in the "fringe". Pyle is a well-known, mainstream, nature writer. He got a grant to go off and do a bigfoot book, wherein he hikes into areas where bigfoot might live. The first, oh, at least half of the book is quite conservative. Later on, though, we find out more about his interest in the big fella and monster movies and the like. In a sense, the book is presented by the publisher as similar to C.D.B. Bryan's CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE FOURTH KIND*...an outsider looks at a "paranormal phenomenon". As with most things, though, we find that "it ain't that simple". The book isn't designed to prove anything, and it doesn't...it's more devoted to a sense of wonder. NO MERCY*: a Journey to the Heart of the Congo, by Redmond O'Hanlon. Haven't read this one or even seen it yet. It's about a trip to the Congo to try and find Mokele-Mbembe, the supposed surviving sauropod dinosaur. It sounds somewhat similar to Rory Nugent's DRUMS ALONG THE CONGO*, another basically one person trip for the same purpose. In turn, these both are similar to the above bigfoot title. Of course, the "grand-daddy" of the mokele-mbembe books is A LIVING DINOSAUR?, Roy Mackal's 1987 volume. Catch him on THE EDGE OF REALITY (see Saturday night). CONFERENCES, LECTURES, ETC. THE CROP CIRCLES OF 1996 Saturday, May 24, 7pm, Michael Glickman and Patricia Murray lecture on THE CROP CIRCLES OF 1996. Pacific Cultural Center, 1307 Seabright Avenue, Santa Cruz, California. $15 prepaid (check only), $20 at door. Mail payment by May 21 to Kwazupum Productions, 500 Quail Drive, Santa Cruz, CA 95060. More info, 408-471-1635. MAGAZINES, NEWSLETTERS, PERIODICALS, ETC. FATE, June 1997 (#567). I've read this magazine since I was a kid, and it started back in Spring of 1948. It's gone through a lot of changes during that time, but still is quite prestigious and popular...200,000 circulation. This issue is especially exciting, of course, because it features me :) . I'm one of eighteen "experts" who are quoted about 50 YEARS OF UFOS. I'm thrilled, actually...I'm in some big-name company, including David Jacobs and Budd Hopkins, just to name (drop) a couple. Oh, you can also see a picture of me, taken in my actual library, although mercifully, you can't see the mess. FEATURE ARTICLES: INTO THE FOUR WINDS, A JOURNEY WITH ALBERTO VILLOLDO by Rob MacGregor; HOW TO READ TEA LEAVES by William Hewitt; HURTS SO GOOD (Rolfing) by Kim Mecklenberg; and 50 YEARS OF UFOS by a bunch of folks. Other articles include: REMARKABLE RECOVERIES AND RESCUES by Dina Tevas; IN SEARCH OF THE PINK LADY (ghostbuster) by Joshua Warren; SOMETHING BORROWED,SOMETHING BLUE by Sharon Carter; MR. SANDMAN, BRING ME A DREAM by Dina Tevas; TALKING HEADS by Donald Tyson; THE MOUNDS OF ST. PAUL by Frank Joseph. Columns this time are: I SEE BY THE PAPERS, by Editor-in-Chief Terry O'Neill; PSYCHIC FRONTIERS by Loyd Auerbach focusses on parapsychology on the web...Loyd will also by EDGE OF REALITY this Saturday; HYPNOTIC HIGHWAYS by Dr. Bruce Goldberg, who is a "future life progressionist" with a stand-up, borscht belt delivery ((at least on the radio)), talks about "Light People". The regular departments are what shows that FATE is the most populist of the paranormal mags...regular people write in their own experiences. See the website at http://www.llewellyn.com. Most big bookstores will carry FATE. ONLINE OMNI MAGAZINE (http://www.omnimag.com) is back to do real time conferences. The regular night for our kind of stuff is Tuesday 7:00 PM to 8:00 PM Pacific. They didn't list ahead, this week, that I could see. RADIO AND TELEVISION SYNDICATED RADIO: END OF THE LINE is now SIGHTINGS ON THE RADIO. This has resulted, among other things, in a new website: http://www.sightings.com. Next week's guests not known as I write this, but you can check the website on Monday. It can also be heard on your computer. Airtimes: SYNDICATED TV: COULD IT BE A MIRACLE? (They have now provided me with program summaries, which I greatly appreciate!) I've switched computers this week, let me see if I recover them yet. PSI-FACTOR (see http://www.psifactor.com for stations and airdates and other info). This series is supposedly based on real cases. --week of May 12, case #32-1147. Last new show of the season, one case for the full hour, PERESTROIKA (giant, monster parasite emerges from frozen ancient creature). --week of May 19, FREE FALL (skydiver can levitate?); THE PRESENCE (is a boy telekinetically responsible for poltergeist activity) Saturday, May 24 RADIO: THE EDGE OF REALITY, 5:00 PM -8:00 PM Pacific. Also available on Satcom C5, Transponder 23, SEDAT Channel 24. The specific spots have to be considered tentative, and the station in your area may run it tape-delayed. 5:00 PM is one I'm going to try not to miss...Roy Mackal, one of world's leading cryptozoogists, no doubt discussing mokele-mbembe (see NO MERCY under books above); 5:45 PM, psychic detective Paula Forrester; 6:00 PM, what should be a great "cross-fire" segment with ghostbuster Loyd Auerbach and arch-skeptic (should I say "ghost-buster-buster"?) Joe Nickell from CSICOP. He's been getting some press lately (he was recently on POLITICALLY INCORRECT, or at least he was scheduled to be), but I know Loyd, and he's sharp. 7:00, Richard Sutphen, best-selling hypnotist and past-life expert (YOU WERE BORN AGAIN TO BE TOGETHER* I think is one of the titles); 7:30 PM, author Jim Marrs, well-known conspiratologist (he wrote the book which inspired Stone's movie on JFK, supposedly), about his new book, ALIEN AGENDA*. 2:00 PM, THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: DRAGONS, DINOSAURS, AND GIANT SNAKES Sunday, May 25 SYNDICATED RADIO, 7:00 PM, ART BELL'S DREAMLAND: (see http://www.artbell.com for stations and program info) Art interviews Robert W. Felix, author of NOT BY FIRE, BUT BY ICE*. LOCAL TELEVISION, SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA, CALIFORNIA, KRON-TV, 6:00 PM, SUNDAY, BAY AREA BACKROADS: the search for Bigfoot LOCAL TELEVISION, KING COUNTY WASHINGTON, CHANNEL 29, 7:00 PM: JOURNEY: David Chace, the "conceiving artist" of artists' conceptions of experiencers views of aliens...that was a mouthful! 11:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, SIGHTINGS (#5064): CASE CLOSED (psychic detectives); ANGEL OF DEATH! (author John Ronner comments); RESTLESS SPIRITS!; THE CALL OF THE SASQUATCH! (ape-like carvings in the U.S.); HUBBLE DISCOVERIES 12:00 PM, THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: DOOM OF THE DINOSAURS 1:00 PM, THE LEARNING CHANNEL, UFOS AND OTHER CLOSE ENCOUNTERS 2:00 PM, A&E, THE UNEXPLAINED: PSYCHIC DETECTIVES 2:00 PM, THE LEARNING CHANNEL, UFO 3:00 PM, THE LEARNING CHANNEL, ALIEN SECRETS - AREA 51 PART 1 4:00 PM, THE LEARNING CHANNEL, ALIEN SECRETS - AREA 51, PART 2 4:00 PM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, SIGHTINGS (#5064): CASE CLOSED (psychic detectives); ANGEL OF DEATH! (author John Ronner comments); RESTLESS SPIRITS!; THE CALL OF THE SASQUATCH! (ape-like carvings in the U.S.); HUBBLE DISCOVERIES 5:00 PM, THE LEARNING CHANNEL, UFOS AND ALIEN ENCOUNTERS 7:00 PM, FOX, BEYOND BELIEF: debut of new series...presents "real" paranormal cases, and phony ones, and you get to guess which ones are which 11:00 PM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, SIGHTINGS (#5064):CASE CLOSED (psychic detectives); ANGEL OF DEATH! (author John Ronner comments); RESTLESS SPIRITS!; THE CALL OF THE SASQUATCH! (ape-like carvings in the U.S.); HUBBLE DISCOVERIES Monday, May 26 LOCAL TELEVISION, SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA, CALIFORNIA, KRON-TV, 12:00 AM, Monday, BAY AREA BACKROADS: the search for Bigfoot SYNDICATED TV, MONDAY, STRANGE UNIVERSE: Hale-Bopp (see website at http://www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse for stations and playtimes in your area.) LOCAL TELEVISION, SNOHOMISH COUNTY, WASHINGTON, 3:00 PM: JOURNEY: Brenda Roberts produces. 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC, AND MIRACLES (preempted by Godzilla marathon) Tuesday, May 27 SYNDICATED TV, TUESDAY, STRANGE UNIVERSE: psychic detectives (see website at http://www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse for stations and playtimes in your area) 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC AND MIRACLES (#44): no details available Wednesday, May 21 SYNDICATED TV, WEDNESDAY, STRANGE UNIVERSE:murder predicted by psychic (see website at http://www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse for stations and playtimes in your area) 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC, AND MIRACLES (#45): no details available 7:00 PM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, SIGHTINGS (5062): ghost in the heartland; have UFOs affected missiles; the Cydonia face on Mars; crop circles; music as therapy; Nostradamus (see website at http://www.scifi.com/sightings after Tuesday) 11:00 PM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, SIGHTINGS (5062): ghost in the heartland; have UFOs affected missiles; the Cydonia face on Mars; crop circles; music as therapy; Nostradamus (see website at http://www.scifi.com/sightings after Tuesday) Thursday, May 29 SYNDICATED TV, THURSDAY, STRANGE UNIVERSE: Donovan (Why do they have him on? Must be the season of the witch...)(see website at http://www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse for stations and playtimes in your area) 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MAGIC, MYSTERIES AND MIRACLES (#46): no details available 7:00 PM, A&E, THE UNEXPLAINED: NOAH'S FLOOD 9:00 PM, THE DISCOVER CHANNEL, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: PSYCHIC DETECTIVES 11:00 PM, A&E, THE UNEXPLAINED: PSYCHIC DETECTIVES Friday, May 30 LOCAL RADIO, 8:00 PM (Pacific Time) WGBB 1240 AM, New York: THE JOYCE KELLER SHOW: the host is a psychic who helps callers. Phone number is 516-955-1240 SYNDICATED TV, FRIDAY, STRANGE UNIVERSE: ski resort built on volcano...don't ask me why this qualifies :) (see website at http://www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse for stations and playtimes in your area) 12:00 AM, THE DISCOVER CHANNEL, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: PSYCHIC DETECTIVES 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC AND MIRACLES (#47): no details available 8:00 PM, NBC, UNSOLVED MYSTERIES: This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!" ____________________________ *Want books on these topics over the Internet? Go to http://www.strangemag.com OR You can order books by calling 1-800-905-8367 (615-896-1356 outside the USA). PLEASE TELL THEM BUFO SENT YOU. This is not a paid ad, but if you order something and identify me, I get something. Anything I get will go towards my work in this field. STRANGE Magazine is edited by Mark Chorvinsky. Greenleaf is operated by Marc Davenport and Leah Haley. ------------------------------------------------- **OPUS is the Organization for Paranormal Understanding and Support. I am an Executive Boardmember, and Director of the OPUS Educational Institute. OPUS encourages its officers and Network Associates to express their own opinions: however, it is important to note that I do not speak for OPUS in this piece or others presented under my own name. For more information on OPUS, call toll-free 1-888-999-OPUS. __________________________________________________ You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com. You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to Bufo's WEIRD WORLD (which covers theories and happenings) the same way. Also, please let me know if there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, the week before.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 24 Half Hour CNN International Debate On UFO's And From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:22:41 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:19:49 -0400 Subject: Half Hour CNN International Debate On UFO's And Thursday May 29 on CNN's Q&A (Questions & Answers) Jim Marrs, author of "Alien Agenda," will join host Riz Khan "for a serious examination of alien and UFO sightings". Below you'll find the times and the message, as it appears on CNN's website: =20 Q&A is your best opportunity to interact with top international newsmakers and fascinating guests! If you have an idea for an upcoming show, or a guest you'd like to appear on Q&A, be sure to send your suggestions now, via e-mail. Send your suggestions to: cnni@turner.com =20 Hosted by: Riz Khan=20 Q&A Airs:=20 Monday-Friday =20 1630 GMT 1830 Berlin 1430 Buenos Aires 0130 Hong Kong 2300 New Delhi=20 And Monday-Friday =20 0130 GMT 0230 Berlin 2230 Buenos Aires 0930 Hong Kong 0700 New Delhi On the Monday, May 26, 1997 edition of Q&A with Riz Khan: =20 (snip) On the Thursday, May 29, 1997 edition of Q&A with Riz Khan: Aliens Do you believe in aliens? How about repeated reports of "UFO's" or unidentified flying objects? The author of "Alien Agenda," Jim Marrs, joins us for a serious examination of alien and UFO sightings on Thursday's Q&A. Ever since the famed "Roswell" incident in Roswell, New Mexico, many people have been transfixed over the question "are we really alone?" Ask our UFO specialist yourself on the Thursday Questions & Answers. Send your comments to: cnni@turner.com Fax your comments to: 1-404-827-4056=20 Comments posted here will be reviewed by Q&A producers for possible inclusion on air during CNN International's Q&A. Program Summary: Viewers take their turn asking the tough questions on Q&A, CNN International's new interactive program. Hosted by Riz Khan, Q&A puts top newsmakers on the firing line, opening up the lines to let viewers ask the questions via phone, fax or e-mail.=20 All Programs are subject to change without notice.=20 For information on CNN International's in-depth news program Insight =20 | INDEX | SEARCH | CNN HOME PAGE | MAIN CNN NETWORKS PAGE | Copyright =A9 1997 Cable News Network, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 24 Pflock/Friedman From: Ralf Zeigermann <kag15@dial.pipex.com> Date: Fri, 23 May 97 21:18:36 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:17:02 -0400 Subject: Pflock/Friedman Hi folks, and again freshly some pressed pieces from USENET: ... it=B9s getting better and better ... almost better than the=20 by now legendary mail-exchanges between Korff/Hesemann/Komarek (he especially; imagine 'Komarek' set in italics), /Mantle,=20 /Kevin /etc etc... I love Ufology and all its participants ... I guess I shall=20 write a novel about all of this...it reminds me of somewhat=20 hostile neighbours arguing about each others lawn not been=20 mowed or each other complaining about each others children=20 making to much noise, somewhere in the suburb of some rural=20 town... Am I the only one who has the feeling that it is getting=20 more and more embarrassing? START: *************************************************************** I think readers/users of this newsgroup will find this post-posting exchange between Friedman and I interesting. =20 Plz. feel free to distribute at will. -- Cheers, KARL =20 ----------- Ktperehwon@aol.com [Karl Pflock] wrote [May 20, 1997, e-mail heads up to STF: > > STAN -- This morning I posted the following on several UFO newsgroups. -- > KARL > > ------------------------------- > >=20 Tuesday, May 20, 1997 > > To those who may be interested: > > In mid-March, after discovering my colleague Stan Friedman had, on the > February version of his web site, grossly misrepresented my views and the > whys of the evolution of my views on the Roswell non-crash/retrieval of a > flying saucer, I sent him a lengthy e-mail message detailing his errors. I > asked that he post this message on his site.... =20 > [Pflock]Karl: Today is May 22 and your posting is apparently on many newsgroups. I can't seem to get through to you that I haven't had time to do the careful job that should be done re Todd, Marcel, Korff etc. I hope to get to it. You sound a bit like a spoiled brat who wants his ice cream NOW.I had been asked by many people if I didn't think you were still CIA. I had honestly stated that I don't know and have seen no evidence that you were. It is in my gray basket. Why this offends you I don't know. I have indeed said there would have been no GAO stuff without you.. that doesn't mean I have to give you 100% of the credit. A recent conversation with Bill Brazel certainly suggest that the storm in questions was just before his dad got involved not a month earlier etc etc. But I don't have the time.. I have been gone as I have noted. so you will just have to spread your story far and wide.Responding to you is NOT on the top of my priority list.Please feel free to post this response to all the groups.As it happens my web site guy is out of town. The site is my forum not yours.Very hastily, Stan Friedman =20 ----------------- May 22, 1997 - e-mail KTP to STF: =20 STAN -- All I asked for was that you deal with me as a colleague, fairly and honestly. =20 Time? How much time would it take to post something already written? =20 Excuse me for presuming you were genuinely interested in the truth and in fair dealing. -- KARL =20 ----------------- May 23, 1997 - e-mail from STF to KTP: =20 > Excuse me for presuming you were genuinely interested in the truth and in > fair dealing. -- KARLKarl: Hopw fair is it to put out a detailed commentary to me and have it immediately spread all over the internet before I have even seen it? I still don't understand your original complaint. I don't have an interest=20 group. I have a web page. Your initial concerns were NOT clear. Would you have been happier if I had said I couldn't find any evidence you weren't still connected? How can you possibly claim that 25 documents only 2 of which were TS and none of which were SCI prove there was no crash? You certainly know better than that.Your body explanations are totally tortured.. and as I said a long time ago you have basically said a whole host of people were liars... but Kal and Todd are truth=20 tellers.. Sorry. I don't buy it. .. but I guess I will have to wait for your book along with Korff's, Corso's, Klass'.I do have Mantle-Hesemann Stan Friedman =20 ----------------- May 23, 1997 - e-mail from KTP to STF: =20 STAN -- I e-mailed you my "commentary" on March 16. I put exactly the same message--with an intro and a bit of editing only for clarity and typos (missed at least one of those)--on the newsgroups. You were NOT blindsided. All you're doing is making excuses. What has become of the Stan Friedman I used to know? =20 BTW, I think you'll like my review of Korff's book in the June MUFON JOURNAL. -- Sincerely, KARL=20 *************************************************************** Cheers, Ralf
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 24 Burkes responds to 'The Rantings of A Scoundrel' From: Erik <Beckjord@transbay.net> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:59:04 GMT Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:14:45 -0400 Subject: Burkes responds to 'The Rantings of A Scoundrel' To the Insiders ufo list: This from Joe Burkes ___________________________________________________ Subject: Burkes responds to the rantings of a scoundrel For your information. 12012 Thermo Street Los Angeles, CA 90066 May 16,1997 Dear Ms. Cooper-Ecker Editor -in- Chief, PO Box 1053 Sunland Ca. 91041 It was with no surprise but with some dismay that I read yet another unprincipled attack on CSETI in the current issue of UFO Magazine. Richard Hall's accusations by insinuation that CSETI Director Steven Greer is somehow benefiting financially from his organization are totally unfounded. As a researcher in the Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind Initiative, I have closely observed Dr. Greer's work since 1992. His tremendous efforts on a voluntary basis to establish some 20 Working Groups is truly remarkable. These teams are conducting real time research into the UFO phenomenon by attracting anomalous craft to secure locations where limited interactions occur. To create this network Dr. Greer has taken thousands of hours away from his practice and family life to travel hundreds of times across North America and to England. As a fellow emergency room physician I am in a good position to estimate the amount of lost income he has sustained in volunteering his time to CSETI. The sum is probably close to three quarters of a million dollars of unearned income since 1990. I was present at the recent CSETI Washington Briefings where military and aero-space contractor witnesses gave testimony to members of Congress and their staff. I know as a fact that over 20 Congressional Offices were represented because as CSETI volunteer, I checked the official representatives into the meeting. The behind-closed-doors series of events organized by Dr. Greer was of major importance and cost CSETI tens of thousands of dollars to conduct. Richard Hall's asinine barbs against CSETI are some of the worst examples of gutter journalism to be found in the UFO field. I suspect such nonsense may be exciting to some readers, and the nasty invective in a perverse way helps sales for a growing magazine as yours. I ask that UFO magazine take a modicum of responsibility for the editorials it publishes. Reality Check should be discontinued. The rantings of a scoundrel should not be given high profile in your magazine. For those who want information about CSETI, I suggest your readers check out the group's web site at www.cseti.org . The Center for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence is a non-profit organization that has tax exempt status in good standing under 501(c)(3) regulations of the IRS. Unprincipled and baseless attacks against Dr. Steven Greer only serve to discredit UFO Magazine. Sincerely yours, Joseph Burkes, MD _________________________________________________ Comment: My two-bits is this: Whereas I like Bruce Maccabee and Don Berliner, and support FUFOR, IMNSHO, Hall is a borderline wacko. He and logic are not friends. I base this on several totally frustrating phone calls. EB [Erik Beckjord]
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 24 Re: EKIP - Russian Saucer-shaped Prototype From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:57:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:20:49 -0400 Subject: Re: EKIP - Russian Saucer-shaped Prototype UFO UpDates - Toronto wrote: > Caption for attached .gif > Workers walk by a 'flying saucer', called > EKIP and based on once-secret Soviet plans, > at a factory in Saratov, Russia yesterday. > A larger version may carry up to 2,000 > passengers. EKIP is set for testing in 1999. > Reuters - 05-23-97 Interestingly there was a video segment on this Russian craft with a brief walkaround in the factory and discussion about the design of the craft during one of the UFO programs about two months ago when either the Discovery Channel or The Learning Channel featured UFO 'week'. The narration was did not offer any checkable or specific technical details. One may be able to see it again when those programs are re-reun. Sorry I don't remember the title of the specific program it was shown in. Perhaps someone else recalls... Odd that this craft should popup again, since its not new, news. Has anyone seen a story on this craft in one of the aviation periodicals, e.g. Aviation Week, etc., maybe I missed it when I was out of the country. Gary Alevy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 24 Re: Astronauts & UFO Pictures From: "Thomson Mason" <thomhack@polbox.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:23:39 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 16:00:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Astronauts & UFO Pictures > Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 03:39:31 -0400 > From: Werner Walter <106156.3630@compuserve.com> > Subject: Astronauts-UFO-pictures > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > "new" american astronauts UFO-pictures around. Since then I try to get the > full story behind this material and a set of full-view-pictures of this > material. Who can help in this matter??? I can. Some informations are on http://www.cybase.co.uk/satcom/ . You can also try http://www.in-search-of.com/wingate/text/marscnsp.html , but I've got some problems with accessing this page. Good luck in your search ! Greetings from Poland Thomson , thomhack@polbox.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 24 Re: Kal K. Korff's UFO Sighting - The DETAILS! From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 09:07:00 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 16:02:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal K. Korff's UFO Sighting - The DETAILS! JC: To set the record straight: Mr. Korff and I had some personal Email dialogue in regards to a possible "exchange of information" regarding a sighting I had years ago. After noting that he (possibly inadvertantly) published portions of that personal exchange without asking me first, I replied (below) and waited to see if he would publish my reply to him, after I had said: >From: TotlResrch@aol.com >Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 18:31:15 -0400 (EDT) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >cc: rjcohen@li.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Kal K. Korff's UFO Sighting - The DETAILS! ....snip.... JC: ....snip.... I suppose I'm rather glad I sent the answer I did. Please feel free to post that too, in its entirety. Thanks! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - JC: Since he didn't post it, the following was my reply: . . . JC: Kal, although I am really dying to discuss this with you, I am going to decline your offer temporarily. I feel it is really important that I keep the focus of any attention coming my way directed at the "Oberg/Cooper rebuttals." At this point in time, discussing the details of my particular experience might possibly redirect the focus away from the research I spent many years assembling. My own sighting, although of extreme importance to me in a motivational sense, is actually less important than its inspired, completely checkable, accurate research. I can only say that if your experience is exactly what you say it was, we definitely share a common "motivation" and will most certainly have a most interesting email exchange in the, I hope, not too distant future. I apologize for having to take this stance at this time, but I strongly feel it is professionally necessary. Respectfully, Jerry Cohen Email: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net> Website: http://www.li.net/~rjcohen ....snip.... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - JC: Sorry to take people's time with this but it was necessary.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 24 DISPATCH #53 -- the weekly newsletter of ParaScope From: ParaScope@AOL.COM Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:59:28 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 15:55:58 -0400 Subject: DISPATCH #53 -- the weekly newsletter of ParaScope DISPATCH #53 -- the weekly newsletter of ParaScope S O M E T H I N G S T R A N G E I S H A P P E N I N G 5/24/97 Quote of the Week "Humans are dominant currently. Robots can now think like insects. In five years it will be cats. In ten years they will have a brain equivalent to a human....In contemplating the next millennium and our future, we should prepare ourselves now for a society in which a more intelligent life-form than ourselves will exist." -- Kevin Warwick, a professor of cybernetics at Reading University, proclaiming that we are headed for a future in which evil robots will assume control of the planet, and humanity will be helpless to stop them. For the rest of the story, read Enigma editor D. Trull's story "Artificial Intelligence: Even Better than the Real Thing?" -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Rant of the Week: Pusillanimous ParaScope's Prodigal Plan Every week we pick the wackiest, scariest, nastiest or funniest rant from the hundreds of letters received by us here at ParaScope headquarters, and present it to you as our Rant of the Week. This week, "Rick" pulls out his thesaurus and let's fly in exposing ParaScope's (whom he believes to be a single person) plan for global domination. He wraps things up with a classic Gumpism. Enjoy! "I am writing to express my concerns about Parascope's readers, and more specifically, there platitudes regarding clueless fogeys. The first thing I want to bring up is that Parascope is -- for lack of a better word -- shiftless. It is trying to deflect attention from his rotten principles. I used to think that pusillanimous prodigal bimbos were the most stolid people on the planet, but now I know that his few positive contributions will continue to be overshadowed by his broader message of hate. Let's face it: Everyone knows of the lust and driving passion that has caused this problem. I happen to believe that the dynamics of the situation are such that behind Parascope's mask of benevolence stands a complete plan for world government, world power, world conquest, and the promotion of churlish misoneism. Come on, Parascope; I know you're capable of thoughtful social behavior. Given the lackadaisical political rhetoric of our times, if your slaves get their way, society as we know it will cease to exist. For the most part, your slogans have a distinctly sick tone. Still, Parascope has a certain fondness for ignominious gutter-dwellers. The tone of your inclinations is so far removed from reality, I find myself questioning what color the sky must be in your world. Parascope's rejoinders have no redeeming value. And that's all I have to say." [Reprinted with spelling and grammar goofs unchanged. Names changed to protect the ranters.] -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Parallax Episode 9: "Hybrid Birth" Something crashed in the lake at Bighorn Canyon. When locals became caught up in investigating the strange incident, it became the catalyst for all sorts of weird happenings and shadowy goings on. The Parallax Interactive Story Game is the story you've controlled, from start to finish, deciding how the plot will unfold. Will the Alliance expose the secrets that the Agency is trying to keep hidden? It's up to you to decide the outcome. Choose a side and vote for the story option that you want. The latest Parallax, "Episode 09: Hybrid Birth" is now up in the Nexus area. Check out the story by entering the Nexus from the AOL main screen listbox. (Sorry web friends, Parallax is an "Only on AOL" feature!) -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Get a Life...On Mars! Nobody knows for sure if life ever existed on Mars, but that isn't stopping scientists and laypeople alike from debating this question long and loud. Hey, who needs a degree in astrobiology? There are enough twists and turns in this puzzler to keep anyone guessing, regardless of your scientific background. A recent report from a team of Hawaiian scientists suggest that the original analysis of the Martian meterite was mistaken, and that there is no evidence of life. Others are whispering that NASA is all too ready to fan the flames of the Mars life debate as it seeks badly needed funding and a mission for the next century. What do you think? Discuss life on Mars (or the lack of it) Saturday at 9pm ET on the ParaScope web site's Virtual Places chat room. http://www.parascope.com/virtualplaces/virtualplaces.html By the way,please note that the Virtual Places chat software has a new release for Netscape Navigator and Microsoft Explorer. Download the newest Windows or Macintosh Virtual Places Chat software at http://www.vplaces.com/vpnet/index.html After installing the newest software, visit the ParaScope Virtual Chat room, the Crop Circle, at http://www.parascope.com/virtualplaces/virtualplaces.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Can You Direct Me to the Nearest Dimensional Portal, Please? There has been more and more talk about stargates, dimensional portals, wormholes and interdimensional travelling. The movie "Stargate" sparked a new fascination with the idea of multidimensionality. But come on! Is this even a theoretical possibility? Could stargates and portals really be a doorway for alien or time travellers? Join PSCP Purp as we discuss these amazing possibilities, Wednesday, May 28 from midnight to 2am ET. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Coming Up Next Week! Catch all these stories next week on a daily basis on America Online, or all at once next Thursday on the web site! Monday, May 26: Four Out of Five Americans Prefer Grey Aliens In September, 1996, the Gallup Organization conducted a little-reported poll on UFOs, life beyond Earth, and various paranormal subjects such as channeling, astrology, ghosts and angels. Although it received little attention in the media, the 1000 U.S. adults surveyed produced some very interesting statistics on public belief in paranormal phemonema. Find out how many of your fellow Americans want to believe, how many don't, and how many just aren't sure. ----------------------------------- Tuesday, May 27: Introducing the All-New Conspiracy Newsline Yeah, yeah, the Illuminati runs everything, America is turning into a police state, and the End Times are near. But what's going on RIGHT NOW? Check the Conspiracy Newsline to find out. Featuring daily updates on developing situations and news briefs for the paranoid, from MJTF raids in Salt Lake City to the coming food shortage. For the most up-to-date breaking news on conspiracy topics anywhere, check ParaScope's new Conspiracy Newsline. ----------------------------------- Wednesday, May 28: UFO Roundup: What's Up Around the World? Check out our all-new roundup of recent UFO-related activity from around the globe, courtesy of Joseph Trainor. Get the scoop on UFO sightings and black choppers in Alabama, a daylight disc spotted in Arizona, a UFO-related blackout in Punta Arenas, Chile, sheep mutilations on the Israeli coast, and the latest British crop circles. ----------------------------------- Thursday, May 29: Fortean Slips! That's right, It's a brand new batch of dispatches from ParaScope's outpost on the paranormal fringe! Featuring: Saddam's Clones (Does everyone's favorite wacky Iraqi really intend to build himself a genetic dictator replicator?); The Heir Apparition (An inheritance dispute leads to ghostly deeds of greed!); Body Part Sculptor (Art imitates death in a grisly tale of cadaver aesthetics!) and The Oracle of Methane (The gaseous secret behind the ancient Greek prophecies of Delphi!). You won't want to miss this blockbuster edition of Fortean Slips, in an all-new snazzy web format. ----------------------------------- Friday, May 30: Operation Animal Mutilation -- The Official Investigation You've heard about the cattle mutilations craze -- for years there have been reports of dead farm animals found with key body parts missing. Who or what is to blame? A government experiment? UFOs? Satanists? These are but a few of the theories that observers have floated. Now you can study the results of a massive government investigation of mutilations, as ParaScope presents the Justice Department-funded report you must see to believe. Be warned: the report's photos of classic "mutes" are not pretty! +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Want to help change the world, or at least a little corner of the online world? Here's your chance. Check out the following positions at ParaScope: Sound, Music, Action! Here's your chance to write the national anthem for the conspiracy nation -- or the paranormal republic -- take your pick. ParaScope is looking for musicians and sound designers to assist in bringing life to an upcoming multimedia project that combines some of the best of ParaScope's content from our first year online. If you'd like to volunteer to compose atmospheric music or sound effects, send a note to music@parascope.com. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Jane, Stop This Crazy Thing! Thought you were tough enough to handle the Dispatch and now you realize you're not? Starting to think you've made a wrong turn off the info highway? Well, we're only going to go over this once, so listen up! To unsubscribe yourself from Dispatch: 1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com 2) In the body of your mail, type: unsubscribe dispatch That's all there is to it! Likewise, if you've received this e-mail from a friend and you'd like to subscribe yourself, just: 1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com 2) In the body of your mail, type: subscribe dispatch ---------------------------------------- ParaScope 11288 Ventura Blvd., #904 Studio City, CA 91604 America Online -- keyword: parascope parascope@aol.com World-Wide Web -- http://www.parascope.com info@parascope.com Search for other documents from or mentioning: parascope | music |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 24 Re: Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's Ufologists Are From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 15:22:23 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 16:37:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's Ufologists Are >From: EdKomarek@aol.com >Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:24:06 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's Ufologists Are Real Patriots. >In reverse I think we could say that those UFO/ET debunkers connected to >various black projects should be considered treasonous public enemies. This >for deliberately disinforming and propagandizing the people. This UFO/ET >propaganda and psycological warfare assault is contrary to the American >Republic and against everything the Constitution stands for. Your spelling checker is on the blink again, Ed. It's 'psychological.' >A free people cannot be free if they are not informed and unable to make good >decisions. I think those of us that are informed can now see that there is a >loosely organized effort underway to discredit Roswell by any means >necessary. >This effort must be opposed at every turn. >The best, Ed Komarek Your grammar checker is apparently on the blink as well: Try something like "A free people cannot be free if they are uninformed and therefore unable to make good decisions." It should also be "those of us *who* are informed..." Otherwise, I'm glad to see that you're mellowing in middle age. Previously you wouldn't have referred to a combined campaign of deliberate disinformation, propaganda and psychological warfare mounted by "treasonous public enemies" as merely "loosely organized." Tightly orchestrated would have been more like it. The fact of the matter is that so-called ufologists have done as much to discredit the Roswell case as anyone purportedly associated with any treasonous black projects or other government propaganda activities. Might I point out that it was black projects, Mahnattan included, that preserved the Constitution and kept our collective behinds free of facism and communism? Which would you rather have? And for what it's worth, do you call an Air Force report on Roswell that sells for $52 propaganda? If they had handed out free copies on street corners, I could maybe see it. As it is, however, I doubt if the report sold a thousand copies nationwide, a number which has to be compared with all the best-selling books on Roswell authored by ufologists -- who can't even agree on how many crash sites there were, if, whether and/or how many bodies were recovered, and which witnesses to believe or not. Do you think the Air Force planted Gerald Anderson, Jim Ragsdale and Glenn Dennis, for example, all of whom have done quite well at discrediting themselves by themselves? Do you think the black budget included a piddling sum to manufacture the several spurious Roswell "fragments" that various "ufologists" have put forth over the last couple of years? Did the black budget pay for the Santilli alien autopsy film fiasco? So who is informed here and who isn't, Mr. Ed? The fact of the matter is that you don't incontrovertibly *know* jack -- beyond what you read. And half of what you've read about Roswell has now been retracted in one form or another by the very same ufologists who put it in your mind in the first place. All you do is pronounce and denounce from afar. A typical example of which is the post you repeated in the ORTK Bulletin #27 about MUFON members allegedly terrorizing some poor hapless B&B owners in the Texas Hill Country. Did you spend five minutes on a telephone trying to find out whether the story had any validity or not before posting it on the Web? The answer is that, no, you did not. If you learn that the story was composed entirely of composted cow patties would you admit as much and apologize for same in your Bulletin? I hope I'm wrong, but from what I've seen from your keyboard and modem thus far, I seriously doubt it. So who's propagandizing who, Mr. Ed? If you've got facts and names, use them. If you don't, then please have the personal dignity to stop using the Web to distribute unfounded rumors and allegations, along with your personal political philosophy. If I'd wanted to join the UFO militia, I would've done so long ago. Does the fact that I haven't make me a traitor? Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 24 UFOSEARCH #2 - Donald Keyhoe's Role In The UFO From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:49:49 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 15:51:52 -0400 Subject: UFOSEARCH #2 - Donald Keyhoe's Role In The UFO This is the second of the series of essays I will be posting to UFO UpDates. Several of these essays were posted in the past in the alt.paranet.ufo USENET newsgroup. There are approximately 25 essays in all. I am posting these with the permission of the author. Unfortunately the author is not presently available on the Internet. However, if you would like to correspond with the author I have arranged a temporary internet email address that I will use for forwarding the correspondence to him. This is not a permanent email address. The address is: ufosearch@pipeline.com I hope you find these essays as interesting and thought provoking as I did. Commentary: If you would like to learn a bit more about Major Donald E. Keyhoe and the origins of modern ufology, what serious student of the field would not, then let me suggest two additional readings. These are instructive in a number of ways. One will expose you through its treatment of the subject matter to what some consider debunkery and the other will expose you to what some consider the scholarly approach. You will also discover that there is a refereed journal in this field despite some people's assertions that they don't exist, in fact there is even another one. These readings are an interesting contrast in the treatment of Donald Keyhoe and his role in the UFO phenomenon. Does debunkery exist? Was Keyhoe a "hack" writer, concerned citizen or intelligence operative? Read and judge for yourself... UFO: The Government Files Peter Brooksmith Barnes and Noble, Inc. 1996 ISBN 0-7607-0218-7 $14.98 The indexed discussions of Donald Keyhoe in this book are on pages 29-30, 33, 35, 44-6, 57, 71, 47. Donald E. Keyhoe and the Pentagon: The Rise of Interest in the UFO Phenomenon and What the Government Really Knew Micheal Swords Journal of UFO Studies New Series, Vol. 6 1995/1996 $21.00 single copy The article is on pages 195-201. The Journal of UFO Studies is published by: The J. Allen Hynek Center For UFO Studies CUFOS 2457 W, Peterson Ave Chicago, IL 60659 Gary Alevy And on to essay #2... ********************************************************************** Donald Keyhoe's Role In The UFO Arena (was: Who is Major Donald E. Keyhoe?) UFOSearch Val Germann Columbia, Missouri I want to thank Steve Meaders for his reply to my recent message concerning the Major -- I could well be wrong about him. And even though I think he was in some ways playing both sides of the street, I still admire him greatly. He was in an awkward position, still in the reserves and with many, many friends high in the armed forces. I think if you closely study his role in the Betty & Barney Hill affair you may find something there that might illuminate his role a bit. The world of the "UFO" is very, very complex, as is the "human" side of the thing. Below begins a look at Keyhoe's 1953 book: Flying Saucers From Outer Space. My comments appear inside (( double paren )). Premonitions Of The Future, Part III Flying Saucers From Outer Space; 1953 Major Donald Keyhoe, U.S.M.C., Ret. Major Keyhoe died in the fall of 1988, about the same time as the Lorenzens and Allen Hynek. He was all of 91 years old and had been a friend of both Admiral Byrd AND Charles Lindberg! He was a free-lance writer on military affairs throughout the 1930s and 1940s and put his career on the line as a promoter of the UFO as interplanetary vehicle. His connections within the military were and are unique and he was allowed to see "cleared" UFO reports during the early 1950s. It was a different world then. The "intelligence boys" had yet not taken over, or so it seemed. Flying Saucers From Outer Space, now over three decades old, remains amazing, especially in light of the Lear Letters, Communion and Raymond Fowler's The Watchers.. Was Keyhoe working for ???? in the early and middle-1950s when his influence was the greatest? Was his job to float trial balloons up and see who shot at them? Well, something strange and unusual was going on as you will soon see. The fantastic quote below begins on page 231 of FSFOS and is contained in a chapter called `Exodus From Space.' The time is early in 1953, more than 40 years ago! "Al" is Al Chop, then Keyhoe's main liason between the press and the Air Force. His office was in the Pentagon, if that helps any. A "PIO" is a Public Information Officer. The "Utah film" is one of the most amazing ever made, one that was never shown in its entirety to the public. This film clearly showed a group of UFOs "maneuver" and was made by a military photographer. "Riordan" is a fighter pilot friend of the Major's and we begin with Keyhoe speaking. "It was two days before I heard from the Pentagon. Then one morning an Air Force PIO called me. "Al told me to give you a message--he had to rush off to a meeting. He said to ask you to come at about 2 pm. He's got something to show you." When I saw Al, I noticed he had a worried look. "What's happened?" I said. "There's been a spurt in sightings. Only a few have gotten into the papers, but we've had 42 military reports alone, the first 17 days of February. I've got a few here for you." He was silent for a moment, tapping has fingers on the desk. "It's not good, Don. If it keeps on, there may be a lot of public reports. We might have the July trouble all over again." (( The "July trouble" refers to July, 1952, when UFOs overflew the White House and Capitol, causing a nation-wide flap! This flap has now, in 1995, dropped from the view of many in today's `Ufology.' Notice how Keyhoe verges on being a co-conspirator, almost a de-facto employee of the Air Force. )) "I can guess the rest," I said, "They're backing down on the Utah film showing." (( See Ruppelt's book for the inside view of how the Robertson Committee killed the film for the public. )) "Nobody's backing down," Al retorted. "Anyway, not the ones who think it should be made public. But it wasn't the Utah business I wanted to see you about." Reaching into a desk drawer, he brought out a manila folder. As he opened it, I saw several typed pages. "This script," he said carefully, "has been approved for publication--on one condition. I'll tell you what it is after you read it." He handed me the pages and I looked at the title: "Planet Earth--Host To Extraterrestial Life "I stared at Al, then read the beginning. The key paragraph repeated a statement which several scientists had made: In some far-off future, when the earth cools or our sun expands, Man's only chance for survival will be escape to another planet. This situation, the script went on, can be expected on any inhabited planet. Then one line seemed to leap from the page: "Granted that superintelligents in another solar system are looking for a suitable planet for a second home, why would earth be singled out?" (( You see, I really do like Keyhoe, in many respects he liked to get to the heart of the matter. But. But. He never took the train all the way to the station. I fault him for this because he really did have a sophisticated understanding of the true issues involved, quite sophisticated. We all should know that every investigator in this field has ten times as much info held back as they have ever published. Me, too. )) "I looked at Al in amazement. "This is dynamite. You mean the Air Force wants this made public?" "It's not an official statement," he said quickly. "Then what is it?" "It's one person's opinion--a man named W.C. Odell." "Not Colonel Odell, in Intelligence"" "Well--yes. But his Air Force connection can't be used on the by-line." "You'll never keep it secret, if this gets into print. The boys in the press will dig it up. When that hits the wires, it'll raise holy hell." "The Air Force would say it was simply one man's opinion." (( Unofficial info can always be denied! Here we see, in my opinion, one use for Keyhoe, as the unofficial source for, as Vallee's Major Murphy said, "Any rumor they want spread." Now it is not as simple as that because I think Keyhoe was working for one of several factions within "government" looking into the UFO situation. A leak can have many purposes, many of them quite legitimate and useful to the public at large. And Keyhoe might have been quite willing to have been used, for the inside dope it occasionally got him. In spite of some of the things I have said about Keyhoe I actually admire him greatly -- he was walking a very high and very tight tightrope indeed. )) "But an Intelligence colonel!" Why take the risk--now at all times!" (( Keyhoe takes up the cudgel of secrecy? )) "Odell has the right to express a personal opinion, if it doesn't violate security." "For heaven's sake, Al! You know what this means. If this invasion idea gets out after you show the Utah film--" "It won't be published then, no magazine could get it on the stands that quick." "You think they'd sit on it that long? The minute the Utah story breaks out, they'd resell it to a wire service, with joint credit." Al was silent. "You want me to show this to True--is that it?" "Yes, or any other magazine you write for. But make sure it is clear that Odell's AirForce rank can't be used." (( The question, of course, is WHY? Why do they want THIS out? And, of course, Keyhoe knows this is the question. )) "Look, Al, I've got to know what's back of this. Does the Air Force want it out as one of the possible answers?" Al shook his head. "I told you it was just one man's idea. Security Review passed it. That's all I know." (( And today, in 1995, that's all anyone knows! Except that we do know now that the `Air Force' investigation was a front for the real one. The article was never published. No-one Keyhoe showed it to had the nerve to run it, or something -- Keyhoe never really tells us. )) "He put the script in an envelope, along with the February cases he'd cleared. "Show it to your editors, and let me know their reactions as soon as you can." "I went out, still astonished. Even if Al were telling the truth, it was incredible that Colonel Odell's suggestion should be made public now. On the face of it, the Air Force was throwing caution to the winds. But knowing the fight against even the film showing, I couldn't believe it. There must be some other answer." (( Read the last several paragraphs again. This is how the system still works except on a more sophisticated level. )) (( Is what you will read below the fact, or at least what was accepted as fact by insiders? Is this what the OTHERS had told some of those inside and thus was in fact what they were then believing? You decide. )) Stopping under a corridor light, I read over the entire script. It was quietly written, the invasion suggestions sandwiched between discussions of space travel and astronomy. There was no hint of a violent occupation of the earth. But nothing could reduce the impact of Odell's suggestion. If he were right, unknown beings from a dying planet were considering the earth as a possible haven--a new home in which to perpetuate their race. Possibly, as Odell said, the long survey would prove our world was not suitable. Otherwise, Planet Earth might become -- willingly or no -- a "host to extraterrestrial life." (( Now, notice the crucial concept here. These OTHERS are the ones in trouble, not US, and this was perfectly acceptable in the middle 1950s, before hardly anyone realized how we were tearing up the Earth and its life forms. But today we know that WE are in trouble, too, and WE may be the ones needing help! This is the operative paragraph. If true, it explains so much of what has been going on for so many years. How could such information have been garnered? Well, nowhere except from THEM, of course. But how did our insiders *KNOW* that what they were told was in fact the truth? Answer: they DIDN'T. But the story was one they could live with, it posed an old, failing alien race interacting with a young, virile humanity (the Captain Kirk syndrome). But was all of this only a cover story, a deadly one? I think so. )) "On the way to the airport, I thought over Odell's suggestion. The mass migration idea wasn't new--it had been used in dozens of stories and plays. But I'd never taken it seriously; moving any large number of people from a distant planet seemed impossible. (( And IS impossible. But we now know there are OTHER ways!! )) "Of course, it could be done gradually, over a period of time. Even then, the problems seemed enormous, though they might not be barriers to a race which had long ago mastered space travel. How would Man, in some far-distant age, go about migrating to another planet? In that far-distant time, Man would certainly have mastered interstellar flight. Long before the earth becomes unbearably hot or cold, our descendants would begin to look for a new home in the universe. "Since no solar system planet has a climate like earth's, the nearest star systems would be explored first. Perhaps a twin to the Earth will be found; if not, the explorers would search farther and farther. During a long exploration more than one earth "twin" might be found. If the nearest one were inhabited, our descendants might choose a more distant planet, especially if the planet race were strong enough to resist invasion. "Once an Earth II was selected, bases would be set up and an occupation force gradually brought in." (( To secret bases in New Mexico, as per Lear and Cooper, for instance? And you thought all of that was NEW! )) "On a planet similiar to this, evolution probably would have produced fish and fowl, also animals which the colonists could domesticate. If not, small numbers could be brought in to start such life." (( Or, as we know today, genetically created, the way it would have to be done! The lynch pin to the whole deal would be whether or not the "others" could be modified enough genetically to live on the Earth without a lot of hardware. How long would it take to discover this? Years. . .decades. . .centuries -- longer? Such a situation would explain a great deal concerning the "UFO," would it not? )) (( It was right after this `explanation' was `leaked' by the `Air Force' that "Project Aquarius" was said to be formed. The UFO was taken away from project Grudge and given to "Aquarius," i.e., put under an airtight intelligence umbrella where it has remained ever since. )) "Even with giant space ships, moving most of the earth's population would be impossible. At first, probably, migration would be limited to technicians, builders, defense forces and their families. It might take hundreds of years for Earth II to be fully occupied. Migration might be voluntary, but probably it would be restricted to younger age groups--except for key scientists and various experts." (( Or, you might create your people "in situ" on the new planet through genetic engineering, using local resources and even assistance! Now there is speculation!! )) "But if the planet were inhabited, a different plan would be used. The choice of such a planet might be forced on the Earthlings; it might be the only one on which they might survive. Or it could be a cynically deliberate choice--the homes, industries, farms and mineral supplies of the planet race might be short cuts to colonization." (( Or more importantly, to use the lifeforms that already exist there, their resources, their genetic material! )) "Either way, the fate of the planet's inhabitants would depend on the character of future man. By then, a wiser human race may have outlawed war, or they may have degenerated into scientific barbarians." (( The question of the century, already answered. )) "If our descendants were peaceful, they could suggest a friendly coexistence to the planet race: the earth's scientific advancement might be held out as an inducement. (( Here, of course, is the Lear scenario, suggested 35 years before the first Lear Letter was written. Is some kind of "genetic coexistance" being proposed by these "others" and this is the reason behind the abductions and genetic experiments? And think about this--could it be that it is not these "others" who are in trouble but humanity? That is, could they be here because we are about to do ourselves in and they are trying to save what they can--and inherit the Earth later? Such is possible. )) "But if future Man is a cruel materialist, he would take one of two steps: 1) Destroy the inhabitants and take over their world. 2) Conquer them and use the captive race as forced labor. Even if the earthlings desire peaceful occupation, it might not succeed. A race too weak to resist would be no problem but an advanced race might fight. If the planet were the only possible choice for Earth II, our descendants would probably have to use force if reason failed. Once in control, they might persuade the inhabitants to cooperate. (( The Lear Letters, of course, suggest one of the scenarios above is in fact taking place now. They suggest our elites may be trading living space or support for other programs for scientific advances--or at least they're trying. But the "advances" turn out to be MAJIC beans, according to some. )) Way-Cool, huh?! Major Keyhoe's Role In The UFO Arena -- Part Two Val Germann Columbia, Missouri We continue quoting and commenting on Keyhoe's Flying Saucers From Outer Space. Keyhoe is just finishing reading a script given to him by Al Chop, a public information officer assigned by the Air Force to Project Blue Book. Chop would later go to NASA and climb high in that organization, his association with "Flying Saucers" not hurting him one bit. "Riordan" is an Air Force pilot friend of Keyhoe. My comments on this material are inside (( double paren )) -- "It is possible that the earthlings would discover a highly superior race, forcing them to renew their search for a second home. If none were found they might, in desperation, stage a sudden attack with their most deadly weapons, hoping surprise would overcome the inhabitants defenses. Should this fail, undergound life on earth would be Man's last hope. "When I went into the airport terminal, there was no sign of Riordan. He came in a few minutes later, as I was leaving the American Airlines counter. We went up to the deserted mezzanine section and I told him about Colonel Odell's migration answer. "Good Lord!" Riordan said. "Does the Air Force really believe that?" "I don't think so, but I'm puzzled at their letting Odell say it." (( Exactly the proper response and a question that Keyhoe does not really answer to my satisfaction. Was he simply the last cog in a transport mechanism that the "Air Force" was using to disinform the American people? This is what many would say. )) "Riordan skipped throught the typescript, pausing at the key points. "It's fantastic," he muttered, "If an Intelligence colonel hadn't written it--" he stopped. "There's one thing for sure, if any other race tried to muscle in here, there'd be one hell of a fight." (( Americans are absolutely obsessed with "race" as a biological concept, most revealing in its own way. Notice the concern with the idea of others "muscling in" the same way we in the Western World have been muscling in around our globe. )) "It would depend on their weapons-- " (( A most interesting concept, he at first seems to be saying, "Well, if their weapons are really overpowering there wouldn't be much of a fight." Or, think of this, Keyhoe could have meant something like "We might not even RECOGNIZE their weapons." )) "We'd fight anyway," Riordan said. "I can't see Americans-- or the rest of the world, either--letting themselves be pushed off onto reservations like the Indians. They'd have to finish us off before they could settle here." (( Spoken like a true imperialist. But never mind. Here we see the primary reason this kind of thing would never be made public, never. Well, at least not until it was too late. Like now? )) "I still think one of the other answers is more likely. But even if it's true, it doesn't mean they've definitely decided on the Earth. They may be considering some other planet. They might have trouble with our atmosphere; if they find they can't adjust they might give up. There could be a dozen reasons why they'd have touble settling here." "Even if they did select the earth, it could take them years to be able to start migration. And if they tried it on a small scale, we could handle them. Also, we might have space ships by then, maybe new weapons to hit them with. Of course, if the earth was their only choice, they might rush things." (( Here, too, are fertile ideas for Lear Letter speculation. Is the `survey' still ongoing or have they made up their minds! Is that the reason for all the leaks of late--many on the inside see an actual invasion shaping up and are trying to force the issue into the public realm! This is possible. )) Riordan made a face, "Damn it, I still say it's fantastic, intelligence colonel or not!" (( I would have said, "Well, intelligence colonel, it's GOT to be fantastic!" )) "The thing that bothers me," I said, "Is the Air Force clearing this thing." Riordan gave me a crooked grin, "Even though I don't believe it, I wish I hadn't heard it." (( This was exactly my response to the Lear Letters. But, again, no answer from Keyhoe as to `why' this stuff is to be allowed out. The reason that Keyhoe can't answer the question is because the answer would involve discussion of what the `Air Force' was using him for! That was something he would not talk about! )) "As my airliner droned over Baltimore, I looked down over the sprawling city. Would this and other American cities be coveted by unknown space races? Would they offer the homes, industries and food that these mysterious beings required? Or would their needs be totally different? Even if they closely resembled us in form, they might have developed a civilization so strange that ours would be totally useless to them. . . (( Very important. Only a small part of our biosphere is probably of any use to them. And they might wish to sort of, well, clear the air a little before they really start getting down to serious business. Thus, a little mass extinction. )) "For two days after my return from New York, I heard nothing from the Pentagon. Finally I called Chop, but a PIO told me he was in a conference. "I left word for him to call, and a little later the phone rang. But instead of Al, it was Henry Brennard, the man who had tipped me off to the Utah pictures. "Did you hear about yesterday's blow-up over the saucers?" "No," I said, "What happened?" "There's been a rush of new sightings." "I know that. Chop told me." "Well, most of them have been kept quiet. . .then on top of that an Intelligence colonel got an article cleared." "You mean the Odell piece? They let me see it." "That set off another row. . .it's another argument for slamming down the lid tight." "You mean they've done that?" "No, but the Central Intelligence Agency recommended it," Brennard said. "At least that's what I heard." (( Here we see the ripples spreading out from the Robertson Committee, still a Top Secret as Keyhoe wrote this book. )) "How did the CIA get into this?" "The Air Force gave some of their top men a secret briefing. The CIA people told them to put out a new report, debunking the saucers the way they did in '49--tell the people the project was ended, and then carry it on underground. It'd probably be top secret." (( The Robertson Committee, part of what I call the Second Crackdown -- see Chronology. Hynek was a full participant in this and since he kept his job for a couple of decades beyond it he MUST have signed off on it. Thus "Aquarius," or something very much like it, was by then in full control. )) "They'd never get away with it--not with all they've let out now!" "I don't think they'll even try. Some of the boys are mad at the CIA for even suggesting it. . . " (( `Some of the boys' got quiet real quick as you'll see! )) "I had barely had time to put down the phone when it rang again. This time it was Al. "I've resigned," he said bluntly. "You'd better come on in and meet my relief." "Look, I heard there's been a big row over the Utah film." "I don't want to talk about that now. Come on over to my place tonight and I'll tell you what I can." "When I saw Al that night he told me that there were two groups deadlocked over the secret film. . .one group wants to say the objects might have been reflections." "But the analysis!" I said. "Those speeds and maneuvers proved the things couldn't be birds or balloons--or even jets. Both ATIC and the Navy agreed on that." "It's not my suggestion--don't get mad at me. . .they honestly think they're right--that it's better to keep the thing quiet and not stir up the people." (( Keyhoe, through Chop, presents the justification for denying to the American people the story of the millenium. "Aquarius" or "MJ-12" (or whatever) clamps down the lid. And note that the information Keyhoe is getting is correct, as far as it goes. )) "It's a dangerous gamble, Al. What if something happens and the public isn't prepared--" (( At this point Keyhoe thinks "invasion" might be imminent and wants to guard against panic! Chop doesn't blink an eye! )) "I know, but it isn't settled. We may yet win." (( But, of course, we know by now that they didn't win! )) "I believe four steps should be taken as quickly as possible: "1) The secret Intelligence analysis should be made public, with all the evidence which led to the final conclusion. "2) The Utah film should be released, with the detailed statements by Air Technical Intelligence and Navy Photo-Interpre- tation. "3) Project Bluebook should be expanded, given the fulltime services of top-level scientists, and coordinated with foreign investigations. An integrated, world-wide investigation will probably reveal new facts, especially clues to the motives of the unknown space race. (( As yes, those motives, you know, they may have come all this way just to admire Niagra Falls! )) "4) A plan for communication and eventual contact should be drawn up and made world-wide if possible. Such a plan should include standard radio and visual signals for all aircraft, ships and ground stations. Detailed steps should be worked out to cover every possible development, from the first message to the saucer landings. (( The last two of these things were even then being done, of course, under "Aquarius" or whatever, and in deepest secrecy. That is why there has not been a `real' scientific investigation. One hasn't been needed since 1953! )) "If there is any proof that attack or invasion is planned--we should be told at once. The American people have risen to supreme heights before. They would undoubtedly meet this danger, after the first hysteria, as bravely as they have faced all of our great crises. (( Well, this is a nice thought. . . )) "All of us--every nation--should be told the truth and be made ready for the saucer landings. Even if we are fully prepared, there will be tense moments. We must accept the possibility that the saucer creatures will differ from us in form. Even if they are utterly friendly, their strange appearance could cause panic. But there may be no such problem. (( Does he really think our top dogs want to tell the hoi-polloi that there are other, even topper dogs, on the Earth today? To ask the question is to answer it! )) "These beings from another world may resemble us closely, in form if not in size. Regardless of their appearance, we must be ready to match the friendliness of any strangers from space. Those first dramatic moments may decide the fate of our world." (( I think that the scenario that Keyhoe lays out here has some small possiblity of being true! This "deal" that our betters made with these aliens could be much the one that Keyhoe describes--they traded "advances" for alien "living space." There is evidence that extreme pressure was put on some of our top people in the 1947-48 period, again in 1951-52, yet again in 1965-66 and once more in 1973-75. If a "deal" was made it was completed in the 1973 time frame, in my opinion. But someone always leaks. Depend on it. All do not like the policy. That is, is the above possibility what is bothering those who leak documents to independent researchers? Is this what is going on? I think it could be the fact, in some cases. But how will anyone on the outside ever find out for sure--when the "saucers land?" If so, it will be way, way too late by then, won't it! ))
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 24 Wales - 'Flying Triangle' From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 04:49:13 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 15:49:44 -0400 Subject: Wales - 'Flying Triangle' Received this interesting mail, entitled "Wales Flying Triangle Update", from "byrlip@enterprise.net" via "alt.paranet.ufo". The date was May 24 at 00.52 CET. ________________________ Summary Report of the UFO Sightings in Mid and West Wales, 21st Nov 1996, as reported to the West Wales Paranormal Group. Introduction The following is a report into unusual atmospheric and aerial phenomena which was observed in Mid and West Wales on the evening of 21st November 1996 The phenomenon is popularly known as The Flying Triangle - a type of UFO which has been sighted elsewhere in Wales as well as many countries throughout the world since the early 1980�s. Our sources have included signed witness reports and personal interviews with witnesses. We have found no evidence of collusion in these reports, most witnesses were totally amazed at the quantity of corroborative evidence gathered for this report. We have omitted the names of witnesses to respect their privacy but many have readily agreed to subsequent investigation by other bona fide researchers. Please contact us for further details. We would like to express out thanks to everyone who contacted us in regard to these events and to those public services who patiently answered our enquiries - even if it was only to say that they knew nothing about the events. We�d also like to express our thanks for the journalists and staff on the local newspapers who printed the initial stories and helped in our enquiries, without whom this report would have been less comprehensive. We look forward to the day when such reports can be published without ridiculous and sensationalist headlines and without the ludicrous "explanations" by so-called �experts� that inevitably follow in subsequent issues!. We would also like to thank the staff at the Ministry of Defence, but unfortunately the standard response we received from them proved to be of little assistance. It seems inconceivable that the RAF were unaware of this craft as it flew around Mid and West Wales for several hours - or if they weren�t then they simply are not doing their job properly. It seems probable that they are instructed to stay well clear of these craft, possibly due to the electro-magnetic discharges. It is also possible that the craft operates at night and at such low altitude us to avoid collisions with civil aircraft. The MoD response therefore can be seen to be correct only if they have prior knowledge of these otherwise unidentified craft - however they have said elsewhere that they do not operate an aircraft recognition service and therefore feel under no obligation to identify "UFO"s even if they could. Perhaps such obstructionism is part of the "deal"? We�d also like to thank everyone who has attended meetings of the West Wales Paranormal Group at New Quay, Aberaeron and Lampeter, some of whose experiences are recorded here. We also hope to be able to publish all our other UFO sightings from 1996, together with those from earlier years that have recently been made known to us. We would like to make it clear that although this evening�s sightings were unusual in their number, that we do not consider the area to have been especially favoured in the quantity of sightings - the East Midlands have seen a large number of them - and the Belgian sightings from the early 1990�s involved thousands of witnesses. We would also like to point out that we would initially pursue a rational and terrestrial explanation for this Flying Triangle phenomena (and UFO�s in general) and would not suggest an extra-terrestrial explanation without some positive evidence for it. If you have any information regarding these sightings or any other interesting "paranormal" phenomena (especially on the 21st Nov 1996), then please email us at: byrlip@enterprise.net. . Sightings Swansea Area 4.10 pm. Witnesses saw a large elliptical shape craft, with tailfin, pass through the air at approx 2,000 ft moving in a N/NE direction over Swansea. The object was travelling at normal jet speed and had a white smoke trail behind it. The object glowed white and was not clearly defined around the edges. It was brighter than the moon when it passed in front of it. Weather was reasonably clear, with the sun setting in the west. There were several witnesses, one of whom viewed the object through binoculars, and stated that no wings were visible on the craft. Size unknown. No positive identification forthcoming but it was possibly a normal airliner dazzling in the setting sunlight? Cardigan Area 6.00 - 6.30 pm. Three witnesses were driving in their car from Dinas to Cardigan, near Eglyswrw, in a NE direction. What sounded like two aerial objects with flashing red and green lights flew low and slow over the car. The Shape(s) was uncertain but the lights were described as being "Christmas Tree" like. When the craft/s was passing over the car it emitted a loud noise "a bit like a jet". No positive identification was forthcoming but it could just possibly be the two Hercules transport planes seen near New Quay although the times the sightings are inconsistent. 7.30 pm. Two witnesses in a car saw a low flying triangular shaped craft flying S/SE from Cardigan Bay coast over Mwnt and Penparc, between Cardigan and Aberporth. Initially they just saw flashing blue and red lights in the sky but as the craft passed over their car they could clearly make out the triangular shape. As the craft flew further on it glowed yellow and then suddenly "shot off, like a bullet towards the Preseli hills" (S/SW direction.) A few minutes later the craft then returned (witnesses presumption) and hovered over the car before disappearing extremely quickly once again. N.B. a possibility of two separate craft must now be considered in view of this and other witnesses accounts and the correspondences as stated. 8.45 pm. The second witness initially heard a loud rumbling noise and thought it was an aircraft flying extremely low - perhaps about to crash. The witness ran into the back garden which is in village of Penparc. She looked up to see a large triangular shaped craft flying slowly overhead. The craft was described as having rounded corners, black underneath and having grey sides. It was surrounded in an orange glow which clearly silhouetted the craft. There were red and blue lights in the tips, with a secondary flashing light following (i.e. detached) from the craft. A fairly clear description of the Flying Triangle "UFO". 8.50 - 9.20 pm. A driver initially saw a bright flashing orange/yellow light seawards off the Cardigan to Penparc road on way home. On arriving at home in Penparc his family watched the flashes for a while. They seemed to be every 5 minutes or so. No sound was heard. No positive identification was possible. The witnesses said the flashes were definitely not lightning. No storms were reported in the area. 9.00 pm. Witness, 3 miles north of Glandwr (7 miles south of Cardigan) saw a bright flash of light outside. Went out of the house to investigate and saw intermittent very bright flashes, approx 2 seconds in duration. They were seen in a northerly direction which lit up the surrounding cloud. The weather was clear and definitely not lightning. There was a 5 minute pause between the groups of flashes. 9.30 pm. Cardigan Bus Depot. Witness saw flashing blue, red and yellow lights which lit up the surrounding white clouds very clearly. The flashing lasted about 10 minutes and was accompanied by "crackling like static". Not a storm. Aberystwyth Area 8.50 pm. A witness in Rhydyfelen, just south of Aberystwyth, saw an object out of his living room window. It was travelling extremely fast and very low over the roof tops. The object appeared to have a white light at the front and a red light to the rear, this appeared to merge as the craft was moving so fast. No sound was heard, the object moved very rapidly and out of sight towards the sea (W). 9.10 pm. Witness in Rhydyfelen saw a brilliant white column of light, "about 10 times higher than it was wide", for 2/3 seconds about 2 miles out into Cardigan Bay. It was reported to the police as she felt it could be a distress flare. No ships or boats were at sea at the time. The following day the local police reported that they had been contacted by police in Hereford to say that an identical column of light had been seen there at the same time - no further information available. Time unknown (before 9.30 pm). Sub-editor with local paper talked to someone in Aberystwyth who had seen a bright light in the sky overhead. 10.30 - 11.00 pm. Two witnesses at Llanbadarn Fawr saw a large grey mass flying along the valley tops of the Rheidol Valley. The object was emitting a slowly pulsating streak of light. It flew in an arc out into Cardigan Bay where it was seen to hover in a pillar of light. The object made several circles of Aberystwyth during the 30 minutes it was observed. Diameter of circles was approx. 15 - 20 miles. Movement of the object described as being a mile or so at a time on each pulse of horizontal light (much brighter than sheet lightning.) The flashes were between 1 - 3 seconds long, sometimes there were multiple flashes between 3 - 7 seconds in duration. No sound was heard. The object�s speed was said to be much faster than a normal jet, almost too fast for the naked eye to track. Object finally disappeared off towards Nant-y-moch and the Hafren Forest. Weather described as hazy with 25% cloud cover, dry with a light breeze and near freezing temperature. Cardigan Bay Coast Time unknown. Two witnesses in Aberaeron contacted the local coastguard on seeing bright flashes going off in Cardigan Bay. Coastguards arrived after flashes had stopped and assumed the flashes were lightning. No storm was reported in the area. Time unknown. Witness at Llangrannog reported seeing bright white flashes going off over Cardigan Bay every few seconds. 5.30-6.30 pm several separate witnesses saw 2 RAF Hercules transport planes flying low, they were following each other closely together and at moderate speed. They were seen near New Quay travelling up the coast (S-N) towards Aberystwyth. n.b. this single report is included for information but is not considered to be related to the other sightings neither do we consider that the Hercules were mistaken for the FT by any witnesses. There is a possibility that they might have been sent as �decoys� to conveniently account for any forthcoming UFO reports but admittedly, we have no evidence to support this. 8 - 9 pm (uncertain) witness left his house at top of the hill in Ffosyffin, he saw the horizon brilliantly lit up about 20 miles out to sea. The white light seemed to have a "central core" and was "sitting over the horizon". There was continuous illumination for 30 secs-1 minute. He called his father who also witnessed the light and shortly afterwards they spoke to several others who had also seen the light/s. 9.10 - 9.15 pm Driver going North to Aberystwyth at Llanrhystud saw a bright white flash that lit up the sky for two seconds. Definitely not lightning. No sound. 10.10 pm. Driver at Llanon, coming south on coast road, saw an enormous burst of white light to his right (i.e. seawards), like a 1,000 fireworks going off at once. No sound. Teifi Valley 9.0 - 9.30 pm.(approx). Bright flashes of light seen behind Adpar hill by witnesses in Newcastle Emlyn (i.e. to the East). 9.30 pm.(approx) Driver and four passengers were on route to Llanybydder from Pencader, approx 1 mile from home when they spotted a moving white light low over the tree tops moving an NE direction. Initially thought this was a shooting star but it was too low and lasted too long and was too slow. As object moved across sky it changed to an orange colour before disappearing in a brilliant white flash. Witnesses thought it may have been a plane crashing so investigated area but nothing was found. No sound heard. 9.20 pm. Bright flashes of light seen westward of Llanfair Clydogau by witness while driving, seen approx 700 feet above sea level (NE of Lampeter). Had a panoramic view over the area. Particularly noticed two very bright flashes close together. 9.45 pm. Driver in the vicinity of Llandewi Brefi (NE of Lampeter) saw a bright white flash illuminate the sky and the surrounding area and was almost blinded by it. Then saw a second flash, not so intense, further to the north. Thought the light had come from an adjacent field about 100 yards further on the right and had the impression that there may have been a rectangular object. Clear night, no thunder or other noise heard. Shrewsbury / Welshpool / Machynlleth Driver going home from Birmingham to Aberystwyth area. 10.00 pm saw a bright green "star" descending vertically on the horizon in the direction of Shrewsbury (i.e. to the West). Further along the A5 came across a police diversion due to what looked like deliberately spilled pile of sand. Diversion took them through Shrewsbury and back on to the A5 and thence the A458. As they approached the Trewern Bridge (5 miles NE of Welshpool) they saw the first in a series of extremely bright, bluey white flashes that projected upwards from behind the hills to their right (i.e. North). The flashes continued every 4/5 minutes until they reached the east side of Welshpool, when they seemed to be left behind. Witnesses bewildered! 30 minutes later, in the Mallwyd area, 3 very bright flashes dazzled witnesses. This time flashes came from in front of them (i.e. West) as well as behind the hills to their right (i.e. North). Witness also reported seeing several military helicopters flying in a "hurried fashion" during the drive home - exact location unknown. Subsequent Investigation As one of the initial explanations for the flashing lights had been that there was an electrical storm in the area, the Met Office were contacted. According to their records there was no report of a storm that night, although they said they could not rule one out. No witnesses in the entire area heard any thunder that evening, nor was there any rain. Weather was generally described as "clear", with patchy cloud. It seems impossible that a storm could traverse such a wide area and not give any rain or thunder. Furthermore, many witnesses described the flashes as coming from ground level and the range of colours and length of flashes is atypical of a storm. Conclusion is simple. No storm. As much of the area is designated as a Military low-flying and missile testing area it seemed a good idea to contact the Ministry of Defence. They simply trotted out the usual line about there being "no UFO sighting reported in the area at the time that was considered to be of defence significance" and that "there was no unusual air defence activity, no penetration by hostile military aircraft of the UK Air Defence Region, no unknown aircraft activity on any military radars and that no Quick Reaction Alert Aircraft were scrambled". Incidentally, such quotations as worded above would prove useful if and when such time arises as a new technology craft is announced as the MoD could simply truthfully say that, "yes - it was not unidentified" (we knew), and "yes - it was not of defence significance" (it was one of ours)! With a �secret-technology� hypothesis the answer would both be true and logical whilst neatly sidestepping the real issue - another indication of the usual modus operandi of the MoD. The MoD did inform us that two air-to-air missiles had been fired from Aberporth testing station that morning but this, of course, would not have been at the relevant time. There also seems to be a contradiction in there being a ground-based firing range firing an air-to-air missile but this may well have been a typographical error. In any event, the missiles would probably have been fired from land or sea along the Cardigan Bay coast into Cardigan Bay and certainly not towards land. Interestingly, the Aberystwyth Police informed us that two RAF Hercules aircraft had been seen in the area on the day but unfortunately they could not confirm the time for this. Hercules are known for low-flying in this area and may be responsible for some UFO sightings involving small flashing aerial lights. However, to our knowledge, they have never been associated with the huge brilliant white flashes nor the Flying Triangle-type-craft as seen by many witnesses. It is interesting that the MoD did not report the existence of the low flying Hercules. We were unable to find out if there were any civilian aircraft, blimps or so forth in the air. However, it would seem unlikely for them to be around during the night at low altitude in a designated RAF low-flying area. Aberystwyth police claimed that a civilian pilot on an inward bound transatlantic flight contacted Air Traffic Control at Heathrow asking about bright flashes of light but ATC referred us to the military ATC at West Drayton and no information on this has been forthcoming. Initial news reports on the radio on the following day claimed that local police and the RAF "UFO Unit" were investigating UFO reports from West Wales, the Midlands and Herefordshire. We were unable to get further information as to the source of this news. It is possible that the witness in Hereford, mentioned above, may have been responsible as he is a radio producer for the local radio station. It seems unbelievable that this news would have been given out if there had been an easy explanation for the sightings. None of the local police stations contacted gave any indication of having been contacted by a "RAF UFO Unit" or of there having been any official enquiry. So officially we drew a complete blank - nobody was willing to give us information other than to follow the official line that nothing happened that night. None of the police stations contacted reported having received any calls from the public (other than Aberystwyth with one single report) nor that any of their officers had seen anything unusual whilst on duty that night. And yet we have 18 reports, many of them by multiple witnesses of seeing something very unusual happening in the skies of mid and west Wales on the evening of 21st November 1996. Although it is possible that the two earliest reports are unrelated to the main events (although Omar Fowler subsequently informed us that there had indeed been elliptical craft - with tailfins - sighted in the Midlands only a week or two prior to our report!) it still leaves 16 reports which are all unexplained, other than that they all are consistent with the Flying Triangle "UFO" reports that have been compiled by various sources, in particular Omar Fowler�s Phenomena Research Association. Correspondences of reports on 21st Nov sightings with other reports. Shape. Two reports of witnesses clearly identified the outline of a triangular craft. One of those reports also gave the rounded corners which are sometimes characteristic of these craft. Sound. In general there was no sound associated with the reports, with the exception of the low overflight at Penparc, when a loud rumbling noise was heard. This is typical of other reports, the Flying Triangle is normally silent unless one is directly underneath it and it is flying slow and low. Lights. These can be divided into three groups: white flashes, coloured flashes and orange glow. One of the most outstanding "trademarks" of Flying Triangle reports are brilliant, almost blinding white flashes. These usually, but not always occur when the craft rapidly accelerates or decelerates. These often occur in pairs as it appears the craft often hovers or flies very slowly for 5 minutes or so before taking off in a flash at tremendous speed only to "stop on a sixpence" 5 seconds later. Several witnesses saw two closely timed flashes, some distance apart. Besides these flashes, several witnesses saw flashing red and blue lights. Note that normal aircraft operating at night have continuously flashing anti-collision and navigation lights, which are red, white and green. These are never extremely bright and do not go on only every 5 minutes or so. Whatever the Flying Triangle is, it does not conform to standard aeronautical practice! There are numerous variations between observed lights coming from FT�s but blue and red are quite common, along with green, yellow and white. Lights in the tips are also a common feature as is a white light on the leading tip and an orange one in the centre. Finally the yellow/orange glow that direct observers of the craft saw, just prior in two cases, to its taking off in a flash. Again this is standard for the FT, it would appear that the orange/yellow glow could represent some form of "Charging-up" of the air around the craft to enable rapid acceleration. Electro-magnetic disturbances. One witness reported that the air seemed charged with static. Again not uncommon, and perhaps indicative that the motive power for these craft is not conventional jet power. Following lights. Initially this sounded very unusual but Omar Fowler�s booklet actually reports many such lights, sometimes singular, as in the Penparc report, sometimes multiple. Speed. Our reports are again very typical of FT phenomena. It would appear that the craft operate in two modes: hovering or slow (50 - 100 knots) and extremely fast (speed unknown but appears to disappear "in a flash" with no appreciable transition between the two (seemingly inertia-free). Again this is not conventionally possible either in terms of propulsion devices or in terms of the inertial effect on possible crew members (the g forces would, in a conventional aircraft would cause a blackout or even totally squash the crew not to mention the probability of wrecking the machine itself!). Operating height. For some reason these craft spend most of their time flying at very low altitude. Typical phrases are "just above the roof-tops", "behind the hills" and so forth. Given the speed that these craft operate at when accelerating (which most estimate to be well in excess of Mach 1 - yet no sonic boom!) this would appear to be extremely dangerous, yet there is no evidence that there is any way the crew (if any) can see where they are going - no cockpits are sighted and the edges of the craft appear to be solid. Logos or insignia are not seen, Neither are any aerials, masts or other normal distinguishing features. A further consideration is that if, as seems likely, the craft operates within an intense electro-magnetic field, then conventional magnetic compasses, radar and radio would be appear to be useless, so how the craft navigates and tracks other craft in the area and communicates (if it indeed does so) remains a mystery. It is possible that navigation is by an inertial system and that some form of laser or microwave-based digital pulsed communication system is involved. This may also account for the lack of IFF transponder response which has been alleged in other encounters with the craft. Size. No witnesses were able to give a reliable estimate of the size. One, possibly of "jet airliner size" in length, is the closest report given for the 21st November sigthing. From other sources we know that many other witnesses have seen craft of this type and shape ranging in size from 30 feet to 700 feet in length. In some cases even quoted as "the size of a football pitch"! The accuracy in judging the size would greatly depend on an accurate judgement on the height of the craft above the observer. This can be particularly difficult against a dark sky with no other point of reference especially if the craft perhaps has some special kind of non-reflective �stealthy� coating. Time and Date. Although these craft have been seen in daytime and summer, they are most commonly seen in the evening during the hours of darkness in autumn and winter, as was the case with our reports. Conclusion Mid and West Wales were definitely visited by one or more (probably two) craft of the "Flying Triangle" type on the evening of 21st November 1996. Speculation on the Identity of the Flying Triangle "UFO". There are two schools of thought about these craft. Either they are "Our Secret Technology", that is they are terrestrial in design, manufacture and operation or they are extra-terrestrial in some or all of those aspects. There can be no doubt that whichever is true, the Flying Triangle is more typical of other "UFOs" than it is of any publicly known terrestrial aircraft type in either design, propulsion or use. All of the reported characteristics of the FT are familiar to anyone who has studied the �UFO� phenomenon and their variously differing designs and characteristics. This similarity would suggest a common source and/or propulsion system. Nearly all "UFOs" manage to combine the ability to move practically silently, apart from a humming/whirring noise when very close to the observer; the ability to change speed and direction in an instant; a range of speeds from hovering and very slow upwards to extremely fast - some claim above Mach 10; they often give off electro-magnetic effects, including interference with TVs and radios, car electrics etc; they are often seen to be inside a glowing (usually red/orange/yellow) field of, presumably electrically charged/ionised air; their arrival and departure is often spectacularly bright and rapid and so forth. In short all these craft, including the Flying Triangle, appear to be propelled by an some form of electro-magnetic device which also could possibly act as an anti-gravity force-field providing for inertia-free acceleration/deceleration and flight. Rather than this speculation being a flight of fancy (forgive the pun), it is understood, for example, that ARCO together with Japanese scientists test-flew an aircraft 150 miles in Canada in 1987 using a microwave energy source and that theoretically, an aircraft powered in this way would be able to fly almost indefinitely provided the power continued to be beamed at it. It is worthy of note that many reports of the �next generation� stealth aircraft suggest that they are remotely piloted vehicles (RPV�s) with virtual reality control from the ground, via satellite or from conventional aeroplanes such as the AWACS-type 747 - more probably a combination of the three. This would alleviate the problems associated with high g-force effects on pilots. It seems bizarre that if this is terrestrial technology that has been around for 50 years, at least, nobody has been found to be manufacturing or designing such craft (or paying for them!) Similarly, they might need to be crewed (unless remotely controlled) and certainly maintained but again nobody has come forward to claim to have done so. Furthermore, before such craft would have been built the underlying technology and scientific theory would need to have been publicly discussed to ensure that the project was viable. With regard to the Flying Triangle in particular, these have been around for at least 10 years in their present designs, and have been very widely reported when flying around - yet where do they come from, where are they based? It is believed that British Aerospace have prototype scaled-down versions of this design operating from Wharton in Lancashire, but they are a mere 30 feet long and have only been flying for a year at the most. It seems most unlikely that BAe would build full-scale aircraft of such an unconventional design, operate them and then only afterwards, build the scaled down prototypes! A conjecture that is not generally considered by other researchers is that the Flying Triangle flight characteristics and styling are partly or wholly modelled on the assumed manoeuvres and physical form of extra-terrestrial craft - whether real or otherwise. The reasons for this possibility could be either to divert public attention from a top secret military project with obvious earthly origins and/or to purposefully reinforce a manufactured public belief system in an extra-terrestrial �reality�. For whatever reason the latter may be so, we can only guess as to why. There does seem to be a mounting body of evidence to suggest that widespread covert forces exist to spread counter dis-information to actually reinforce a ET reality. This double-bluff is contrary to the popular belief that the UK, US and other governments are attempting to hide the reality of an extra-terrestrial presence. However, regrettably, this alternative theory is not readily absorbed by the growing body of biased researchers who seem bent on �proving� an extra-terrestrial connection. It may turn out that they are being used to perpetuate the myth - only time will tell! It is interesting to note that in 1987 there was some public concern over a British Aerospace facility in the Hafren Forest in Powis due, in part, to anomalous "strobe-like" lights being seen over the hill tops in the area. BAe refused, at the time to inform the locals about what was going on but did say that they had chosen the site (in a disused quarry in the middle of a huge forest) due to its distance from domestic and industrial electromagnetic "smog". We are currently investigating whether BAe is still operating at the site and its purpose - it certainly wasn�t or isn�t a conventional airfield or manufacturing site! However, it is possible that the UK Government has given permission to another government (USA?) for the Flying Triangle craft to be test-flown over Wales and elsewhere in exchange for technological know-how or additional defence facilities. It maybe that given the apparent massive discharges of electro-magnetic energy coming from this type of craft that it is not permitted to fly in certain countries, but that the UK is once again acting as the USA�s hand-maiden. With the UK�s secrecy laws and culture of denial in the civil service it would be easier to maintain a "plausible denial" of FT operations here. Other considerations include: if they are of terrestrial origin who has given them permission to fly so low over populated and rural areas, with a propulsion system that is guaranteed to be spotted by anyone who is out and about (hardly stealth!) and so low that when it "flashes" it practically blinds any motorist who has the misfortune to be nearby. Further, to operate in British skies it would need to have been granted a certificate of air-worthiness, which should be publicly available for inspection. On the other hand some reports of �close encounters� with purported Flying Triangle "crews" have suggested that they are flown by USA military personnel, but how reliable these reports are is a matter for conjecture and beyond the scope of this report. Elaborate hoaxes may not be beyond the bounds of possibility. So, what to conclude? We are reluctant to suggest the extra-terrestrial hypothesis in the absence of any positive evidence but we cannot confirm the terrestrial alternative for similar reasons. However, a terrestrial alternative does seem the most likely and logical explanation given the evidence available to-date. Until further evidence is produced, the jury must remain out on the true nature and origin of these craft. One thing is most definitely certain - they exist and they are here! Current Investigations We are currently researching the possible propulsion system and power source/s of the Flying Triangle and hope to publish a further report on this subject in the future. We are willing to exchange information with others in this field and would welcome contact with like-minded researchers. Our local M.P. Mr Cynog Dafis (Plaid Cymru), has expressed an interest in our preliminary report and has agreed to actively pursue the matter further. It is hoped that the issue will be raised through the House of Commons Parliamentary Questions procedure. Further Reading Fowler, Omar. The Flying Triangle Mystery. 1996. Phenomenon Research Association. 94 The Circle, Sinfin, Derby, DE24 9HR. Compilation of Flying Triangle reports, mainly from the UK. Suggests an extra-terrestrial origin. Matthews, Tim. Stealth, Lies and Videotapes. 1997. Lancashire UFO Society. PO Box 73, Lancaster, LA1 1GZ. Suggests Flying Triangles are of terrestrial origin and that British Aerospace are involved in developing a UK version. Sheffield, Derek. Deadly Concealment. 1996. Blandford. The Henry Root approach to UFOlogy as the author attempts to get an honest answer out of the authorities regarding the Belgian Flying Triangle sitings in the early 1990�s. Adam Whaley & Richard Alexander The West Wales Paranormal Group. 23rd May 1997
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 25 Re: Roswell: 'Lie' Detection? From: "Business to Business Magazine (Michael Malone)" <btbmag@ro.com> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:40:03 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:50:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Roswell: 'Lie' Detection? > Scott: Lets broaden the scope here a little. UFO debunkers who claim to be > legitimite UFO researchers should also be given a battery of tests to see > weither THEY are telling the truth. One would think THEY would like to clear > up THEIR credibility problems once and for all, if indeed they were telling > the truth. Many UFO witnesses have in fact submitted to tests to prove their > honesty. Should not those who accuse these witnesses also be expected to > prove THEIR honesty. In exactly what way would a lie detector test the honesty of the investigator? Are you suggesting that an investigator is reporting conclusions that they know in adavance are false? > Should not those who make accusations also be put to the same tests. Of > course if the debunkers were in fact lying it would be foolish for them to > submit to fair and accurate testing. The only way out would be if they > could rig the tests. Depends on what the accusers are accusing. If the accusers accuse the witness of lying, I fail to see how a lie detector would serve any useful purpose. Are you trying to find out if the accuser really believes that the witness is lying? Not to mention that lying is often an investigative technique, and proving that the investigator is lying, when they INTENDED to lie isn't exactly useful. > I don't expect a rush by the debunkers to undergo testing anytime soon. I > mean realy take the tests, not just talk about doing so. If we realy wanted > to get to the bottom of these arguments about the validity of witness > testimony involving Roswell we would be pressing for fair and accurate tests > of ALL concerned. Ah... Debunkers. Well, then they should be held to the same scrutiny that the give witnesses. I hate double standards, and I hold debunkers to the same standard I hold witnessess. Michael
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 25 Courtney Brown? From: yechiel A. Mann <Yam@NetVision.Net.Il> Date: Sun, 25 May 97 14:36:56 PDT Fwd Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:49:18 -0400 Subject: Courtney Brown? Dear list, i would appreciate it if anyone would be able to assist me in getting in touch with Dr. Courtney Brown. Sincerely, -yechiel.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 25 Alfred's Odd Ode #139 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 06:16:59 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:51:17 -0400 Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #139 Apology to MW #139 (For May 25, 1997) It=92s the rawness of the wound, that I shove before your eyes. It=92s the septic vision possible, I can show, you so despise. It=92s what you have ignored, pushed back, dismissed by your decries. It=92s the reason for your anxiousness; it=92s why your baby cries. It=92s what=92s hiding in our heavens, and awaiting our decision. It=92s what=92s beyond almighty God, and all the limits of religion. It=92s the way *they* hover teasingly outside your line of vision. It=92s the dust that=92s raised when bunkies smoke their weed of cold precision. It=92s the lights I=92ve seen myself that are so strangely inconclusive. It=92s the stifling dearth of news a whorish media finds intrusive. It=92s the way we treat our sister world =96 unloving, cold, abusive. It=92s the way we treat our fellow beings, so thoughtless, so exclusive. You buy into a whitebread dream where you don=92t pay your end. You weigh your *options* carefully before you make a friend. Convictions of tradition you will not break, or bend, Though they sicken up your insides, and your belly they distend! Now I come by, and point up plans for useful thoughtful friendship, Based in part on extended thought, and garden variety scholarship. It=92s inconvenient dwelling on the facts of all our kinship, So, we dump on those less fortunate, thereby, causing all their hardship! Dismiss me, if you must, as a bleeding heart, or liberal. But the web of life I feel around me is more than just ephemeral. We slap the face of mother=92s grace; we=92re disrespect in general; As if heads had swapped with tails, and our brains were less than sphincteral. I=92m listening if you tell me when you think I=92m wrong or =96 what? Or if you=92re thinking that I=92m crazy =96 writing crap, or not? I do this thing from something plain, and I give you all I=92ve got; I share with you my conscience on this world that we have wrought.=20 And we only see a tiny band of that which _can_ be seen. Our science is mostly money driven, so elite will contravene! This stunts investigation, and inflicts with mad gangrene The truth we should be searching for, a truth that=92s made obscene. I know that I should keep my mouth shut, and count my lucky stars. I know that I could be arrested on a trumped up heinous charge. I know that they could steal the sun, and put me through cold bars. I know that they hold all the aces in their crooked deck of cards. But that=92s not what=92s sold, or made of gold in the sun source of my honor. That=92s not the play we put on here, on a stage where you=92re the actor. The lines you speak are made of lies, produced by the aggressor. =20 His stock in trade? Prevaricate! Eclipse all truth, and candor! They=92re owning all the media =96 John Swinton made that clear! They fan up all your hate, and what you hate you also fear! You draw your lines too hard and straight, and ALL that=92s outside=92s queer. Then you=92ll smoke a pack of cigarettes, and pound down too much beer! When it=92s all done you wake to find that nothing much is changed. Your life is on a treadmill, and your future=92s been arranged! Science is dishonored, God=92s seemingly deranged, You=92re haunted by world family, from whom you=92ve been estranged. And blooming in your shadows are the monsters you=92ve created. They live when you ignore them, because they=92re not debated. =20 The thirst for truth is gone from most; its lost, not mourned =96 unsated. What should be said is not said, so the truth goes down abated. I know that what I=92m saying is uncomfortable to bear. But, I know that we ignore the dark, and what we=92re sensing there. Can=92t you feel it=92s cold breathing, can=92t you see its grinning stare? But indecision scares you more, so you=92re too scared to care! Lehmberg@snowhill.com =20 Comments, queries, bitches, gripes, any and all pissing, and moaning, gnashing of teeth, and/or pleasant greetings are not so patiently awaited.=20 Someday I=92ll have a place that you can all come to in real time. It=92ll have all the magic of a "Callahan=92s Cross Time Saloon." The webs gonna have to do a _lot_ of speeding up, though. Look forward to "AL <squared>" coming in your future . --=20 "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake for bravely looking into the shadows! =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1= =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1= =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1 Government or Social Harassment REPORT - Presently, "ZERO" HARASSMENT
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 25 Re: CNN International Debate - Jim Marrs - Alien From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 02:12:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:46:59 -0400 Subject: Re: CNN International Debate - Jim Marrs - Alien I note that a list reader has posted some information on Jim Marrs forthcoming CNN interview on his new book 'Alien Agenda'. You can see the interview and read the book, or you can do as I have and read the book then see the interview. I particularly enjoyed the epilogue and appendices. Marrs hardly leaves a topic in the field untouched. Rumor has it that the author developed his interest in this issue after being exposed to some information in the course of his investigation of the JFK assasination. Supposedly this information "checked-out", if anything in the UFO field can be said to "check-out" and then the author embarked upon his investigation. Next book he is working on has to do with psychic warfare... The Enigma Files : The True Story of America's Psychic Warfare Program. Maybe Marrs will offer an opinion as to whether or not Courtney Brown's book and comet circus were designed to discredit the disclosure of remote viewing. Here is the information from the Amazon web site. Alien Agenda : Investigating the Extraterrestrial Presence Among Us by Jim Marrs Hardcover, 320 pages List: $25.00 -- Amazon.com Price: $22.50 -- You Save: $2.50(10%) Published by Harpercollins Publication date: May 1,1997 Dimensions (in inches): 9.58 x 6.55 x 1.55 ISBN: 0060186429 Amazon's synopsis: From crop circles to "ancient astronauts, " this eye-opening book by the award-winning author of Crossfire--the basis of Oliver Stone's film JFK--focuses on proof of the existence of extraterrestrial life and offers a convincing explanation of UFOs as well as the assertions of the government cover-ups surrounding them. of photos. Barnes and Noble offers it for slightly less but doesn't even offer a synopsis. Make your choice, pay your money, patronize your favorite bookstore. Gary Alevy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 25 Synopsis of Unconventional Flying Objects, by Paul From: Don Allen <dona@totcon.com> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:23:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:38:44 -0400 Subject: Synopsis of Unconventional Flying Objects, by Paul *** Forwarded from alt.alien.visitors *** From: Robert Collins <rmcoll@sprintmail.com> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: JSE Book Review on Paul Hill by Hal P Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 17:43:15 -0600 Organization: Peregrine Com SUBJECT: Synopsis of Unconventional Flying Objects, by Paul Hill, Hampton Roads Publ. Co., Charlottesville, VA, 1995 (ISBN 1-57174-027-9) JSE Review by H. E. Puthoff, Ph.D., Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin, Austin, TX 78759 To the degree that the engineering characteristics of UFOs can be estimated by empirical observation, in my opinion the above- referenced, recently-published book by Paul Hill provides the most reliable, concise summary of engineering-type data available. [1] The data were compiled over decades of research by a Chief Scientist-Manager at NASA's Langley Research Center [2] who acted as an informal clearinghouse for UFO-related data. The strength of the compilation lies in its thoughtful separation of wheat from chaff, and the analysis of the former into coherent patterns, including detailed calculations. Perhaps surprising to the casually interested, under careful examination the observations, rather than defying the laws of physics as naive interpretation might suggest, instead appear to be solidly commensurate with them, as the following discussion shows. One of the most consistently-observed characteristics of UFO flight is a ubiquitous pattern in which they tilt to perform all maneuvers. Specifically, they sit level to hover, tilt forward to move forward, tilt backward to stop, bank to turn, and descend by "falling-leaf" or "silver-dollar-wobble" motions. Detailed analysis by Hill shows that such motion is inconsistent with aerodynamic requirements, but totally consistent with some form of repulsive force-field propulsion. Not satisfied with paper analyses alone, Hill arranged to have various forms of jet- supported and rotor-supported circular flying platforms built and tested. Hill himself acted as test pilot in early, originally- classified, versions, and found the above motions the most economical for control purposes. Pictures of these platforms are included in the text. In an effort to examine the force-field propulsion hypothesis yet further, Hill analyzed a number of cases involving near-field interactions with an apparent craft in which some form of force was in evidence. These include examples in which a person or vehicle was affected, tree branches were parted or broken, roof tiles were dislodged, objects were deflected, and ground or water were disturbed. Under close analysis the subtleties of these interactions combine to point unequivocally to a repulsive force field surrounding the craft, while discriminating against propulsion mechanisms involving jet action, pure electric or magnetic effects, or the emission of energetic particles or radiation (although the latter may accompany the propulsive mechanism as a secondary effect). Further detailed investigation indicates that the particular form of force field propulsion that satisfies observational constraints is what Hill labels a directed acceleration field; that is, a field that is, in general, gravitational-like in nature, and, in particular, gravity-canceling. [3] Such a field acts on all masses in its sphere of influence as does a gravitational field. Corollary to this conclusion is that observed accelerations ~100 g's relative to the environment could be sustained without on-board high-g forces. One of the consequences of the above identification of field propulsion type by Hill is his conclusion, supported by detailed calculation, computer simulation and wind-tunnel studies, that supersonic flight through the atmosphere without sonic booms is easily engineered. Manipulation of the acceleration-type force field would, even at supersonic speeds, result in a constant-pressure, compression-free zone without shockwave in which the vehicle is surrounded by a subsonic flow-pattern of streamlines, and subsonic velocity ratios. An additional benefit of such field control is that drops of moisture, rain, dust, insects, or other low-velocity objects would follow streamline paths around the craft rather than impact it. Another puzzle resolved by Hill's analysis is that craft observed to travel continuously at Mach 4 or 5 do not appear to generate temperatures sufficiently high to be destructive to known materials. In other words, UFOs appear to prevent high aerodynamic heating rates, rather than permitting a heating problem, then surviving it with heat-resistant materials as is the case of the Shuttle whose surface temperatures can reach 1300 oC. The resolution of this potential problem is shown by Hill to derive from the fact that the force-field control that results in the prevention of shockwave drag as discussed above is also effective in preventing aerodynamic heating. In effect the airflow approaches, then springs away from the craft, depositing no energy in the process. A further example of the type of correlation that emerges from Hill's analytical approach is provided by an analysis of the economy of various flight-path profiles. It is shown that high-angle, high-acceleration departures on ballistic-arc trajectories with high- speed coast segments are more efficient than, for example, intermediate-level, horizontal-path trips, both in terms of required impulse-per-unit-mass and time-of-flight parameters. This he correlates with the observation that UFO departures are of the dramatically high-angle, high-acceleration type. Also of interest is Hill's analysis of the spectra and intensity of an apparent plasma sheath surrounding such craft, the details of which correlate with what one would expect in terms of it being a secondary effect associated with the propulsion system, for example, a blue shift and intensity increase during a "power-up" phase, and the opposite during hover or landing maneuvers. An additional fine point that emerges from this analysis is resolution of the paradox that observation on a direct line-of-sight to a near part of the craft can reveal a metallic-like structure while the attempt to observe the outline of the craft, necessarily by an oblique line-of- sight, results in an indistinct blur. Analysis shows this to be a reasonable outcome of an expected re-absorption of reflected light by the surrounding plasma in the longer-length path associated with the more oblique view. Another typical nugget of information is found in Hill's discussion of the results of the analysis of a possible UFO artifact, the famous Ubatuba magnesium fragments claimed to have originated from an exploded unidentified craft near Ubatuba, Brazil. Laboratory analysis of the samples found the magnesium to be not only of exceptional purity, and anomalous in its trace composition of other elements, but 6.7% denser than ordinary pure magnesium, a figure well beyond the experimental error of the measurement. Hill's calculation shows that this observation can be accounted for by assuming that the sample contained only the pure isotope Mg26, rather than the naturally-occurring distribution among isotopes Mg24, Mg25 and Mg26. Since the only isotope separation on a significant scale in terrestrial manufacture is that of uranium, such a result must be considered at least anomalous, and possibly as evidence for extraterrestrial manufacture. Additional calculations concerning the parameters of interstellar travel (including relativistic effects), and the energetics of such travel, have been performed and are included in tabular and graphical form. The wealth of material in these sections, along with discussion of the broad implications of this material, reveal the dedication and thoroughness of Hill's approach to his self-assigned task. In the final analysis, one must conclude that Hill has assembled as good a case as can be made on the basis of presently available data that the observation of some "unconventional flying objects" is compatible with the presence of engineered platforms weighing in at something around 30 tons, which are capable of 100-g accelerations and 9000-mph speeds in the atmosphere. Perhaps more important for the technical reader, however, is Hill's supporting argumentation, based on solid analysis, that these platforms, although exhibiting the application of physics and engineering principles clearly beyond our present-day capabilities, do not appear to defy these principles in any fundamental way. 1. The book also comes highly recommended in a Frontispiece by Apollo 14 astronaut Edgar Mitchell, and in a Foreword by retired McDonnell Douglas R&D manager Robert M. Wood. 2. Ass't Chief, Pilotless Aircraft Research Div.; Assoc. Chief, Applied Materials and Physics Div. Retired from NASA in 1970. 3.Recent examples of the discussion of the technical aspects of candidate field propulsion mechanisms of this type are given in M. Alcubierre, "The warp drive: hyper-fast travel within general relativity," Class. and Quantum Grav., vol. 11, p. L73 (1994), and in H. Puthoff, "SETI, the velocity-of-light limitation, and the Alcubierre warp drive: An integrating overview," Phys. Essays vol. 9, No. 1, p. 156 (March 1996). Addendum: See URL: http://personal.netwrx.net/xalium/ufovideo.htm for the Tom King, Tim Edwards, Mike De Varennes et al plus Space Shuttle Videos of these UFOs. RMC 97'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 25 UFO*BC-REPORT-An Emerging Epidemic From: Don Allen <dona@totcon.com> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 23:54:28 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:40:33 -0400 Subject: UFO*BC-REPORT-An Emerging Epidemic ** Fwd from alt.paranet.ufo ** --------------------------------------- From: boliver@Direct.CA (Bill Oliver) Newsgroups: alt.paranet.ufo Subject: UFO*BC-REPORT-An Emerging Epidemic Date: 24 May 1997 22:57:22 GMT = =20 Check out http://www.ufobc.org for a in depth look at UFO activity in=20 British Columbia.Abductions,Sightings,Experiences,we want to hear from you. Drop us a line at contactus@ufobc.org or give us a call at (604)878-6511 UFO*BC is a non profit organization registered with the Province of=20 British Columbia. There is no way of knowing exactly when the abduction phenomenon began.=20 However, Graham Conway, arguably the foremost abduction researcher in=20 Canada, has been tracking contact and abduction cases for over 20 years,=20 long before most of us realized that these cases were not only not rare=20 occurrences, but have been fairly. Many of the cases detailed in the=20 following article by Mr. Conway are either still being monitored, or are=20 still under investigation.=20 REPORT FROM BRITISH COLUMBIA, CANADA:=20 AN EMERGING EPIDEMIC?=20 by Graham Conway, FSR Consultant, (British Columbia) =20 The last eighteen months (I am writing this in July 1988) have clearly=20 brought about a public awareness of, and, to a remarkable degree, a=20 widespread discussion of -- and acceptance of -- the=20 "Contactee-Abduction Phenomenon".=B9 It may be more accurate to state that= =20 this certainly holds true as regards North America, but clearly other=20 countries are focusing on their own brands of interference and are=20 reluctantly admitting that they too are not immune.=20 Several authors, particularly Budd Hopkins and Whitley Strieber, have=20 certainly been responsible for this opening of the door, with their=20 books, plus the various TV and radio programmes put out throughout=20 Canada. And even more astonishing, to me, was the overnight "about-face"=20 displayed by our media. As if on a signal, the snide remarks and open=20 laughter had all but vanished.=20 To the "Old Guard", folk like Jacques Vall=E9e, John Keel, Leo Sprinkle,=20 Brad Steiger, all this public revelation was of course long overdue:=20 they had all been saying this for thirty years or more. In fact, John=20 Keel, in his letter to FSR (32/6) had called it "re-discovering the=20 wheel". That is very true, the only difference being that we now have a=20 very different audience. We are into a whole new generation now of=20 involved albeit reluctant witnesses. When Adamski, Fry, Bethurum et al.=20 were tramping the lecture circuit, their voices were faint and their=20 audiences small. The shouts of "hoax", "fraud", "money-seeker", were=20 louder and more numerous then. Today we have a generation who were then=20 either not yet born or small children, and who have grown up in a=20 climate that is vastly more "accepting" towards "Space Age" ideas, and=20 where the "impossible" can at least be considered.=20 Spotlight on British Columbia=20 My purpose in the present report is to draw attention to some possibly=20 so far unnoticed aspects of the phenomenon. Canada appears so far to be=20 absent from the recently published record. This country stretches for=20 five thousand miles from sea to sea. I must plead forgiveness for citing=20 this obvious fact, but it is necessary, lest I may later find some sharp=20 reader pointing out to me something of which I am not yet aware. So, to=20 "play it safe", I shall concentrate on my own section of the country,=20 the Province of British Columbia, and direct my comments to this=20 Province alone.=20 Having been engaged in UFO research for forty-two years myself, it was=20 not until 1976 that I came across my first "contactee/abductee". His=20 story had made the headlines in a small-town newspaper, about ten miles=20 from where I live. And his story was absurd -- but then aren't they all? Having met this man, I could not help being impressed by his personal=20 conviction that he had been "chosen". But there again -- aren't they=20 all? And he "had a mission -- a job to do". Don't they all? Today,=20 twelve years later, he and I are still in touch, and his tenacity and=20 sincerity are still as impressive as on Day One.=20 Since that meeting with him, I have recorded the stories of twenty-seven=20 contactees, with the majority of whom I still maintain a link. Along the=20 way, I have also met others, who have told me similar stories. Of this=20 group of 27, eight are men and nineteen are women, and their ages range=20 from about thirty to sixty. They are principally of the white or=20 Caucasian race, with the exception of one native Canadian Indian.=20 Thirteen of the group are married or involved in a fragile relationship=20 that often shows signs of crumbling because of the ongoing UFO=20 involvement that is not of their seeking.=20 They also all have the annoying, almost daily interference of=20 "poltergeist" - type activity, which is hard to accept and even harder=20 to ignore, and yet harder still to explain to another person,=20 particularly those of the "scientifically-minded" variety.=20 This group of 27 individuals range from those who report getting=20 unsought images that appear on movie film (one woman has OVER THREE=20 HUNDRED SUCH MOVIES), to cases of bank computers that shut down as soon=20 as the lady in question enters the room; cases of "one-armed bandits" that cease to function at Las Vegas; tape-recorders that refuse to=20 work; TV sets that turn off by themselves and come back on again showing=20 a different channel! In addition, we have street-lights that come on or=20 go out as the "subject" approaches the spot; compact-disc-players that=20 eject the record right across the room; cars that won't start for their=20 owners, but will for anybody else; and telephones that are regularly=20 replaced by the Telephone Company every three months because the wires=20 burn out.=20 Then we have humming and buzzing noises that drive the occupant from a=20 room; odours that nauseate; radio-telephones that switch to the=20 emergency channel without the aid of human hand; black helicopters that=20 are unmarked and have opaque windows; plus smaller red (and also blue)=20 "child-size" "choppers" traveling at high speed at tree-top level, which=20 pursue the victim or buzz his home at roof-top level. You might think=20 this enumeration is enough. But it is only a part of the list!=20 Some of these people whom I have met have other equally astonishing=20 attributes or faculties. They can see the radio waves inside=20 micro-ovens; feel the degree of heat that radiates from coloured paper;=20 they are monitored (?) by small balls of light; indulge in automatic=20 writing; or, without warning, find themselves involved in scenes from=20 the future or the past, in which they are the observers, and yet=20 themselves knowing all the thoughts and emotions of the participants=20 (sometimes a truly terrifying and disgusting experience). They can read=20 minds, see auras, and detect the contents of a package without opening=20 it. And so it goes on...=20 "Body Implants"=20 In his article "What They are Doing To Us", in FSR 33/3, Budd Hopkins=20 examined a topic about which, I venture to say, we know very, very=20 little indeed. He relates the story of a man whom he calls "Earl", and=20 the events surrounding "Earl's" unfortunate wife. He describes her as=20 suffering nightmares, and clawing in her sleep at an area near the=20 bridge of her nose, between her eyes, and screaming for them to "take it=20 out -- it's hurting!"=20 Well now, in the spring of 1988 I interviewed a family man on Vancouver=20 Island who, when I asked as a mere matter of routine, whether he had any=20 unusual marks on his body, replied: "No. But I have this little ball=B2 by= =20 my left eye, near the bridge of my nose". With that, he pushed gently on=20 the skin, and the resulting white mark showed a small ball clearly=20 delineated. When I asked him how long he had had this ball, he replied:=20 "About three months before, it was down in my cheek, alongside my right=20 nostril!"=20 Some months later, I told this part of that man's story to another very=20 involved abductee, and she said: "Oh -- I've got one too -- right here=20 -- I always wondered what it was!" With that, she pressed on the=20 indentation at the top of the bridge of her nose, and it appeared also=20 on her, though less than in the case of the man quoted above.=20 In Budd Hopkins' report, "Earl" was forced to watch his wife having a=20 thin probe inserted into her vagina. One woman contactee whom I=20 interviewed in a town north of Vancouver told me that she "had something=20 inserted on three occasions". And she said, angrily, "They had tried to=20 make me believe I was doing it myself!"=20 When I asked her what it was that they had inserted, she replied: "I=20 don't know what it was. But I do know what it WASN'T". This happened in=20 her own bedroom, and during the experience she was totally unable to=20 move. This same young, single, lady told me that she felt that "They"=20 had sex with her more than once. When I asked her how she knew this, she=20 replied: "Because of the odour afterwards".=20 This same lady stated in a most emphatic manner that she has a child=20 somewhere, and that she vividly recalls breast-feeding it. (Needless to=20 add that she denies ever having been knowingly pregnant.)=20 The Vancouver lady who has the suspected implant on the bridge of her=20 nose, recalls a very vivid, all-too-real, "dream", in which she is an=20 observer, up in the far corner of a room, watching herself, in an=20 obstetrical position, giving birth to a scaly brown baby that appears to=20 be in a cocoon. Despite her revulsion at the sight, she hears herself=20 screaming "Don't take my baby away!" The small shadowy white figures pay=20 no attention to her protests.=20 I know two ladies who became pregnant. Yet the husband of one of them=20 was sterile, and in the case of the other lady, impregnation from her=20 husband would have been equally impossible, given the circumstances. The=20 first-mentioned of these ladies was visited during the night by two=20 figures that "looked at" the baby in her abdomen, and showed concern for=20 its welfare. And - strange as it may seem - these two mothers, who show=20 all the hallmarks of having been abductees -- have sons called "ADAM"!=20 A nurse who works in a hospital near to where I live, tells of a male=20 baby that was delivered in 1972. The mother was a sixteen-year-old=20 native Indian. She had no idea who was the father of the child. This=20 particular baby was so different from other children that the hospital=20 staff actually referred to it always as "THE ALIEN". It was later=20 adopted by a family in another part of British Columbia. Again, in that=20 same year, this same nurse, who was working in the nursery of the=20 hospital, saw another child that struck her as extremely unusual. Over=20 the whole time that it was there, she said it never cried, nor did it=20 ever sleep -- at least never when she was on duty. It seemed to=20 communicate with its eyes, and required her to pick it up, and this she=20 frequently did, talking to it a great deal. Although she had quite a=20 large grown family of her own, she says she had an overpowering feeling=20 that this infant was a part of herself. Even at that very early age, she=20 felt that the small being could communicate telepathically. It would=20 indeed be interesting to know how many more "strange" babies have been=20 noticed lately in hospitals around the world.=20 On page 16 of the same issue of FSR (33/3) Budd Hopkins touches upon the=20 emotional upheaval involved in alien contact, and its often tragic=20 results. I too know of one contactee who is now in a mental institution;=20 of another who is heavily into drugs and alcohol; of another that has=20 attempted suicide; plus one more who has seriously considered suicide.=20 Along the way, over the years, I have developed a strong rapport with=20 some of these abductees. The result is that they will tell me things=20 that they won't tell even to their own close relatives. This, in itself,=20 can make for some quite considerable and embarrassing difficulties at=20 times, of which one of the very least is the problem of breach of=20 confidence. As researchers in this field will readily confirm, the=20 participants in contactee cases are usually quite paranoid about any=20 disclosure that might in any way identify them. (Knowing what they have=20 gone through and are still going through, I in no way fault them for=20 being unduly cautious.)=20 Sexual Assaults by "Humans"(?)=20 Recently something emerged that "blew me away", as we say. In an=20 interview which I had with a single-parent lady, the question of choice=20 of a living location was touched upon. (Contactees appear to move around=20 a lot -- maybe subconsciously attempting to escape?) This particular=20 lady told me, jokingly, that her sister-in-law is always "pulling her=20 leg" about not living on the ground floor. Suddenly alerted by this=20 remark, I asked her why? Then it came out that she had been attacked on=20 the street and sexually assaulted.=20 At that point -- figuratively speaking -- "the roof fell in" for me. For=20 I suddenly realized that this woman was the FIFTH abductee/contactee of=20 whom I knew who had either been sexually assaulted or sexually abused.=20 Later, when, in a tone of amazement, I was telling all this to yet=20 another woman abductee, she waited quietly until I had finished my=20 account and then added: "You can make me Number Six."=20 Since then, I now make a point, if the circumstances permit, of putting=20 this very question to them right at the outset.=20 Another contactee of whom I have heard was also the victim of sexual=20 assault. She lives in this same Province of British Columbia, though=20 many hours journey from here.=20 Talk about double jeopardy! What a horrendous load to have to carry=20 around with you! I cannot help but wonder how many victims of some sort=20 of sexual assault are also abductees, and whether there can be a link?=20 What more motivation for suicide could a woman have than this duo!=20 Body Scars=20 I would now like to comment on another point in Budd Hopkins' article,=20 namely his mention of disfiguring scars on the bodies of abductees.=20 It happened recently that a lady abductee, a friend of mine, who was=20 suspected of having breast cancer, had to have a routine X-ray=20 examination. While preparing her for the examination, the nurse asked=20 her: "When did you have the operations on your lymph glands?" "Never!"=20 promptly replied my friend. "Oh, come now", said the nurse. "You must=20 have. You have a scar under each arm!"=20 Since then, this lady has found that her husband has a similar scar=20 under one arm, and her mother and her grandson have them too. It is=20 quite possible that her children also have them, but they refuse to=20 comment.=20 By a remarkable coincidence (?) another family of contactees, who live=20 less than ten miles away, have also reported that one of their members=20 has such a scar.=20 And once again I ask: dare we to dwell upon this, and dare we to wonder=20 how many others there are around the world who carry this hidden=20 personal record? And for what purpose? My own researches indicate what=20 has already been announced long ago namely that we have among us,=20 established here already within our society, a new breed of "super-kid".=20 "The Light People"=20 We also have contactees who report holding ongoing conversations (during=20 sleep, they think), with beings whom they call "the light people", whose=20 purpose seems to be to educate, to solve problems, and to provide=20 glimpses into the immediate future. Often these contactees awaken in the=20 morning with aching necks and shoulders, complaining of feeling=20 exhausted, as if they had worked all night, rather than having=20 supposedly slept the normal eight hours.=20 Are these pure energy forms, described as "the light people", also part=20 of the same general phenomenon responsible for abductions and=20 impregnations and monitorings, and for the removal of ova or of sperm=20 (as one male witness has told me happened to him on two occasions)?=20 Some Concluding Thoughts=20 In closing these notes, I wish to emphasize once more that my statements=20 relate solely to the Pacific Coast area of this vast country of Canada.=20 It is very probable that other researchers across the nation will=20 confirm that similar types of events are happening in their particular=20 communities, be it Alberta, or Ontario, or Quebec, or New Brunswick,=20 etc. I suspect very strongly that they are. In fact, I will go so far as=20 to say that if ANYONE stretches his arms out wide he or she will be able=20 to touch, within their own circle of friends, some person, or more=20 likely some persons, who are very much involved in this emerging=20 epidemic.=20 And, of course, I have come across other oddities too. Living as I do in=20 a racially mixed city, I know of only one (first generation) Oriental=20 abductee. I know of no other Asians, and no blacks.=20 Furthermore, why is it that neither blind people nor physically=20 handicapped people, ever seem to report involvement (The faculties of=20 being able to see, or being mobile, are not a required ingredient in the=20 bizarre complexities of the abduction scenario... OR ARE THEY?)=20 How does it come about, moreover, that I never hear of reports from=20 "street people" -- i.e., people on the streets? Many of them are very=20 alert, fast-thinking, philosophical too, and also extremely observant.=20 Am I to believe that nothing is happening to THEM?=20 Well, yes, of course it might be argued that the answer is that I don't=20 mix in those particular social and ethnic circles. But on the other=20 hand, I do have numerous well-established "pipelines" that should=20 provide a trickle of something... And, to date, they have not.=20 So far I know of five families where three generations are clearly=20 involved in this process of "monitoring" and sample-taking. But so far I=20 am unable to detect any common denominators. Certainly none are apparent=20 on the surface. Does location have any significance, I wonder? Also,=20 what about such aspects as profession, or religious activity, or absence=20 thereof?=20 The questions are endless, the answers almost non-existent. And, as=20 Whitley Strieber has already commented, "THEY" will presumably only=20 reveal the solution if and when "THEY" want to. Until then, the beat=20 goes on.=20 NOTES AND REFERENCES=20 (1) I employ the terms "abductee" and "contactee" interchangeably, since=20 in so many cases both contact and abduction are recognized. And, in=20 cases where only contact is admitted by the individual involved, he or=20 she may very likely be still unaware that abduction also took place.=20 (2) [Note by Editor.] I have personally observed, over a period of many=20 years, the presence of one of these immensely hard little balls just=20 below the skin of a human body. It had been there for at least 40 years. Then, one day, the person, in whose body it was, "woke up", and=20 realized what the thing might be. The man at once rushed to inspect and,=20 lo, the ball was already gone! It would be interesting if we could hear=20 of other such cases where an "implant" vanishes as soon as its=20 significance is perceived. -- G.C. Since this article was published, many more abduction claims have been=20 made in BC. We stopped keeping track of the exact numbers once it passed=20 the lofty 200 mark. Many of these new cases are of extremely high=20 strangeness and credibility.=20 This article was originally published in the prestigious Flying Saucer=20 Review, Volume 34, #1, March, 1989.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 Journalistic Practice From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:23:34 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:29:07 -0400 Subject: Journalistic Practice In my note about Kal Korff's treatment of Edwin Easley, I mentioned what I've found to be standard journalistic practice, which is that you're more or less required to call a source, rather than state that the source has omitted information. Actually, the rules go further than that. If you state in print, in a newspaper or magazine, that someone is wrong about something, you're more or less required to call that person, and get their comment. There are exceptions -- if you write a book review and disagree with the author you're reviewing, you're not required to make that call. And books seem to get more lenient treatment, maybe because they're often not edited too carefully. People who write books seem to make all kinds of statements, without checking for opposing views. But since I've now criticized two writers -- Kal now, and Peter Brookesmith some time ago -- for not calling Kevin Randle before criticizing him in books, I want to illustrate what I mean by standard journalistic practice, by relating a recent experience of my own. I write about music for a living, and recently had a long piece in the Village Voice, New York's major weekly newspaper, about African-Americans in classical music, a most controversial topic. I'd discovered that the symphony orchestras in Detroit and St. Louis have boards of directors that are 20% black, and wanted to contrast that with similar situations in New York. What I found was that major classical music institutions here in the city have almost no African-Americans on their boards, and in my original draft I simply stated the fact, thinking it could be allowed to speak for itself (though I did place it in context, by noting that minority businesspeople are far more prominent in St. Louis and Detroit than they are in New York, and hence are more obvious choices for board membership quite apart from race). But my editor at the Voice wouldn't let me get away with that. He insisted I call the organizations whose black board membership I'd tallied -- Carnegie Hall, the New York City Opera, and the Chamber Music Society of Lincoln Center -- to get comments from them on why they had so few black people on their boards. I did that, and my piece was far stronger because of it. And in not making the calls on my own, I was simply being lazy. As I said in my comments on Kal, any mainstream editor would have done exactly what the guy at the Voice did. And I would have done the same, in the days when I was an editor. Greg Sandow (you can read the piece I'm talking about on my website, http://pages.prodigy.com/gsandow)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 Ecker on Corso & Marrs Books From: DONFEII@aol.com Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:24:53 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:26:44 -0400 Subject: Ecker on Corso & Marrs Books Don Ecker UFO Magazine Hello, and welcome back to UFO Magazine Online. This coming summer might be called the summer of the UFO book. A lot of new ones are just starting to hit the shelves, and the next issue of UFO Magazine will carry a true book bonanza of new ones that will be reviewed. The following titles are a sample: The Day After Roswell--by Lt. Col. Philip Corso. (More on this one in a moment.) Alien Agenda--by Jim Marrs. (Also more on this one.) Fishing Groom Lake--by Larry Wolfe; UFO Danger Zone--by Bob Pratt; A Common Sense Approach to UFOs--by Betty Hill; Alien Impact--by Michael Craft. Recently on several Internet newsgroups, a lot of debate has been generated by several new books that deal with the Roswell case. Such debate will pale into insignificance with the new blockbuster of a book The Day After Roswell, by retired Lt. Col. Philip Corso. Pocket Books Hardcover sent us an advanced copy of The Day After Roswell, which I quickly started. Almost from the first page I felt a sense of amazement and even shock. It had been over 10 years since I felt something similar, the very first time I ever read the now discredited MJ-12 papers released by William Moore. Over the years I have learned my lesson. So why should that excitement be rekindled now? Because of who Philip Corso is: A member of the White House National Security Council under President Eisenhower, a Nike guided-missile commander in Germany during the years 1957-1961, who, working directly under General Arthur Trudeau, headed the Army's Research and development section at the Pentagon. The secret that Corso says he releases is concerned with the Roswell incident.... How Corso was detailed to pump alien artifacts into the industrial pipeline to jump start many areas of today's current technology! Some of the items he links to ET-inspired R&D are night-vision technology, which the Army began using later in Viet Nam, fibre-optic technology which has created a revolution in communications, lasers and particle beam technology for advanced weaponry, silicon computer chips which have revolutionized computer technology. Ok, so far so good. Anyone who lived through the 60's like myself can vouch for the mind-bending technological leaps made by industry. Just look at where computers are today, and it has been just 20 years since the old Altair chip was introduced where someone with some electronic skill could solder together his own primitive computer. But the real bottom line was the race our military was in. No, not the one with the Soviets (although it was with them also)-- no, the one against the aliens! Corso claims that high in the military and government the real fear was of the aliens becoming openly hostile! According to Corso, all those years of covert alien incursions into secure military bases and nuclear weapons storage areas, buzzing aircraft, jet pursuits, and even interference with our and the Soviets' space shots are all proof of a covert hostility. Oh yes, the Russians were worried. There was even a tacit agreement between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. if hostilities broke out. This is some fascinating reading. Is it real? Is it the truth? Well, if on the veracity question I had to choose between Corso and others who have written on this subject over the years, I would be inclined to pick Corso. Alien Agenda by Jim Marrs is out, and I have written a review on Marrs newest book for the next issue of *UFO Magazine. Alien Agenda is a damned good read which really harkens back to the books of Donald Keyhoe in that era I call the "golden age" of research, with the likes of the "old" NICAP organization. Marrs gives you a history lesson with a sense of urgency about what is happening right now. He looks at the field beginning with a recap of startling facts about the moon; the Maury Island (and Fred Crisman) affair up to what is happening in Nevada and our current shuttle program. Marss gives strong attention to lunar anomalies. Not just lights or strange structural appearing things, although he covers that, but for example: did you know that during Apollo, rocks on the lunar surface were recovered that were dated at least 5.3 billion years old? That rock was more than a half billion years older than our own solar system! That ain't all folks, the lunar dust the rock sat in was ITSELF A BILLION YEARS OLDER THAN THE ROCK ITSELF! --Just goes to prove that we don't know what we don't know.... That's it for now. I have some other intriguing stories I am working on, and when I get them completed I will advise you all. A lot of strange things are presently going on, and research is still in flux. You better remember to keep those eyes to the skies and keep checking in back here. Till next time!--Don Ecker www.ufomagazine.com donfeii@aol.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 Decoration Day 1950 From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:46:49 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:02:18 -0400 Subject: Decoration Day 1950 Dear Readers, Please don't peek at the end of this file before reading it from the beginning. Even casual readers of the ufo phenomenon have heard of the author's name and book and might have a prejudice towards him. However, most probably have never read the original, which might be consigned to some dusty attic or pushed from the public library shelves by the steady stream of new publications and revelations. I suspect you'll find what he actually wrote and thought as pertinent today, Memorial Day 1997, as when it was written nearly 50 years ago. Gary Alevy This is NOT one of the UFOSEARCH essays. I'll be posting an essay by UFOSEARCH on this author and his work next. ***************************************************************** Author's Preface BETWEEN THE PEOPLE and government today lies a double standard of morality. Anything remotely scientific has become by government definition a matter of military security first; hence of secrecy, something which does not breed security but fear. If we see anything unusual, even in the skies, we the people must either freeze our lips, like a Russian peasant at the sight of a commissar, or give our names, addresses, business connections, and testimony to be screened and filtered by anonymous intelligence officers. Feared and respected by many people, these anonymous creatures can deny what we say, ridicule what we say, and sometimes (and in an increasing number of countries) jail us for what we say-especially if our timing does not match to the second their intended official pronouncements on the subject. Just as the communists have made a god of their Uncle Joe, we have begun to deify our faceless spokesman. Both should be fought by free men as word oppressors. Without going into it at too great a length, this all ties up with the loss of faith in formal religion, which forces people to cling to the New Sublimation. xi The only way for a free people to fight such encroachments on free inquiry is to say in advance, "What I am telling you will be denied," or "This is true but those who say so now will be branded as dreamers, and if they persist, as liars." It completely destroys American sportsmanship standards when we, the people, stick to the rules while an opposing team of censors who have usurped our rights are permitted, by their own hand-picked referee, to pull rabbit-punches on defensive play, hamstring us from the rear if we seem to be running well in an open field, and even machine-gun the ball in mid-air if we are kicking an almost certain field goal. There is only one thing to do under such a setup. Expose their tactics. Show that more offenses are committed under the word "defense" than this world dreams of. Insist that what we say is the whole truth, and what they say is not the whole truth. That may seem a dreadful way to treat our own flesh and blood, our commissioned sons who have been trained for combat but have been assigned in peacetime to espionage and counter- espionage. But since our sons in uniform do not report to us, the people, but to Central Intelligence (which as far as we can make out reports to nobody and is answerable to nobody), how otherwise can we get our current findings to our own friends2 Scientists believe they have suffered more than any other group from the postwar loyalty hysteria but writers cannot be far behind them. The "thread of intolerance" which runs through our history has now become as thick as a noose to hang us. Under the circumstances, to write a book, knowing not only that you will be ridiculed, but also knowing who will do the ridiculing, and not have a counteroffensive ready, is to be starry- eyed and unrealistic. Rather than be rated dreamers by such obvious interior proof that we are dreamers, it is a good deal smarter to swing first and say that all bureaucrats, whether in tweeds or bogged down with salad dressing, are incompetent time servers, hanging on the public payroll till pensioned or rewarded with a stuffed shirt job in private enterprise (privately endowed universities, natu- rally, included) and are truth trimmers to boot. In order to regain this lost freedom we will have to say "a pox on both your houses" and cease to be brushed off by the perpetual hocus-pocus involved in such phrases of these spokes- men as "top secret.' "secret and confidential," "restricted," and "withheld for reasons of security." Such brushoffs are almost invariably followed by a statement from another department of the defense arm, that what we are hiding isn't really worth concealing, that we are defended by old and obsolete equipment, and that, finally, unless we grant them an additional billion dollars for new equipment overnight, we are dead ducks, saucers or no saucers! Propaganda has made true-and-false practically obsolete in our language. In fact, if a spokesman has served time in Intelli- gence, it may fairly be said, the truth is no longer in him. Spies cannot even buy or sell lies with skill. If so, why are they being arrested all over the world and almost invariably getting a sentence of fifteen years? Has that become the fair trade prac- tices act on the international level? Perhaps it would be clearer to readers if I illustrated with a few samples of this dismal wallpaper pattern. On June 24 1947, businessman Kenneth Arnold of Boise, Idaho, flying his own plane, first reported he had seen several flying saucers in the area of Mt. Rainier, Washington. Reports of other saucers from other areas followed. Then on August 9, Lieutenant Colonel Donald Springer, assistant to the chief of staff of the Fourth Air Force, decided to stop the nonsense. Despite the fact that his command had an unsolved mystery on its hands concerning molten material claimed to have fallen on Maury Island, and the death of two army pilots who were transporting the material for further examination, Colonel Springer said, as far as he was concerned, there was no basis for belief in flying disks in the Tacoma area "or any other." Newspapers took this as some sort of hint and piped down on the subject, With what result? That by January, 1948, six months after Colonel Springer's dismissal of the subject, the Pentagon set up Project Saucer to investigate the hundreds of reports that had been coming in. Fate devoted almost half of its first issue to flying saucers and led off with an article by Kenneth Arnold entitled "I Did See The Flying Disks." Project Saucer proceeded in a quiet unhysterical way for eighteen months before issuing even a preliminary report. The Saturday Evening Post apparently got the idea that the report was going to be negative, so it had Sidney Shalett prepare two articles on the subject for almost simultaneous release with the Air Force report. The articles turned out to be rather long- winded recapitulations of various flying saucer case histories previously explored, and the general impression left after read- ing them was that believers in the actuality of flying saucers appeared as not quite bright. Shalett's first article appeared in the Post issue dated April 30; the second, May 7. The April 30 issue was on the newsstands several days before April 30, of course. In fact, it was on sale when the Air Force issued its April 27 preliminary report. The Air Force report crossed up the Post. This was in line with the pattern I have previously outlined of making fools of collabora- tors. Far from confirming Colonel Springer or the Post, the official report held that there was something to the flying saucer stories after all. It even entertained the idea that the saucers might be from another planet. It left many of its case histories with no solution, as far as this earth or Air Force Intelligence was con- cerned, but promised more light on these later. Having thus proceeded to lure the Post into "fronting" for a negative approach, the Air Force proceeded to accentuate the positive. This naturally opened the door to those rival editors who thought they saw a new trend. True magazine figured it could cash in on the Post's loss of face. Its publisher, editor, and a contributor reassembled much of the Fate and Post mate- rial and told the tale again, except that instead of casting doubt on all believers in aerial disks, True followed an older party line established by Fate in the spring of 1948 and declared in December, 1949, "Flying Saucers Are Real." Hardly had True's copies reached the newsstands when Air Force Intelligence denied True's position from beginning to end. Its spokesman announced on December 07, 1949, that Project Saucer had been closed. It classified believers in flying saucers practically as psychopaths or hoaxers. It left no other way open as an escape hatch for True or anybody else. This Machiavellian pattern of inflating and deflating those who agreed or disagreed with the military on flying saucers continued and was not likely to be altered even if, and when, the whole truth came out. The formula seemed to be: "Play ball with us-and we'll let you have it between the eyes." Though I have not the slightest interest in what the military may or may not say about this book, I want my readers to under- stand my position. I have never seen a flying saucer. I have never had a hallucination that I have seen a flying saucer. I have never joined in any mass hysteria on the subject, and to the best of my knowledge and belief I have never participated in the perpetration of a hoax on flying saucers. I have talked to men of science who have told me they have not only seen them but have worked on several. I have tried to the best of my ability to find flaws in their stories. But to date I have not succeeded in placing them in any of the three cate- gories laid down by the Air Force. Scientists do not want to go to war with the Army over the issue. They have to get essential materials for research, and certain branches of the Department of Defense might find it difficult to find such essential materials for scientists who will not co-operate. Do they make themselves clear? Is it any wonder therefore that I advise readers to treat any official comment as no more to be considered than old news papers blowing in the wind? In fact, if such faceless men should say that the objects are (a) newspapers or (b) not newspapers but fragments of flying saucers, they are not to be believed either way. Not until we, the people, we who, have names, addresses, and the courage of our convictions, not until we say there are such things as flying saucers, is it authentic. And we have been saying it for sometime Now read Behind The Flying Saucers in comfort and throw in the fire unread all the Pentagonic denials from this day forward. Decoration Day FRANK SCULLY 1950 This is the Author's preface from: Behind The Flying Saucers Frank Scully 1950, Henry Holt and Company
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 Re: Huge UFO Over Ireland - an eyewitness speaks From: Joe McNally <fortean3@easynet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 20:06:45 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:55:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Huge UFO Over Ireland - an eyewitness speaks >Delivered-To: fortean3@easynet.co.uk >From: Joe Harte <joeharte@iol.ie> >Subject: Re: FWD: UFO UpDate: Huge UFO Over Ireland >OK folks, as the man on the spot, I suppose I should give a comment on this >little piece of nonsense. >>>Three gigantic craft were see approching Sligo Bay in the middle of the >>>afternoon by dozens of hill climbers near the summet of Mount Ben >>>Bulben. The came in across the bay and alongside the mountain. >I assume this would have been last Tuesday (20th May). I was sitting here at >my desk all afternoon, with its picturesque view out into Sligo Bay. I >believe I would have noticed these big buggers approaching. >>>The hitchikers, and people who live on the side of the mountain were >>>able to look down on the craft from above. Everybody said the triangle >>>craft had no featers or markings on the top on them. >If the people who live on the side of the mountain could look down on the >craft, the craft had to be flying at around fifty feet from the ground, >since Ben Bulben becomes almost vertical at around 100 feet. >>>At one point they passed directly over the grave of the poet W. B. >>>Yeats in Drumcliff churchyard. Cars were stopping by the side of the >>>road as drivers got out to look at the three craft. >Yeah Yeah, the one place in Sligo that would be recognised world wide. >>>My mother said that all at once the craft dissapered. Within an hour >>>Irish Police and Army helicopters were all over the place. The major >>>Irish newsmedia did not report ths story only the small local papers. >Neither of the local papers reported anything, and the only army I've seen >in Sligo in the last ten years were escorting money from the banks (our more >patriotic brethern have some antisocial fundraising habits). >OK? Have I dealt with this one? >Joe. >(who isn't going to get any work done next week 'cos he'll be staring out at >the bay... waiting) >_______________________________________________________ > Joe Harte >Barroe, Phone 071 46885 >Sligo, Mobile 088 517926 >Ireland. e-mail joeharte@iol.ie >_______________________________________________________ ----- Nothing in this post is necessarily the opinion of John Brown Publishing or Fortean Times. On a bad day, it might not even be mine. ----- "I knew then who had brought me to the Greys. The voice said, 'These are the beings whom you want to help.' It was the voice of my Aunt Elsie." - Courtney Brown, "Cosmic Voyage"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 Korff on Roswell (1) From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:01:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:40:33 -0400 Subject: Korff on Roswell (1) I've read parts of Kal Korff's book about Roswell, and I have a few comments. In case anyone thinks it's not fair to comment after reading only part of the book, let me say that the parts I've read are self-contained, and that I've looked up all references in the index to the witnesses they talk about. Because the index turns out to be inaccurate - most of the pages cited for Pappy Henderson, for instance, have no mention of him - I can't guarantee that I haven't missed something. Still, I think my comments are justified, as you'll all be able to see in this and two following messages. Three points before I start. (1) It's crucial to have independent studies of the extraordinary claims made about Roswell. Kal has done us all a service. (2) One of Kal's criticisms is correct, and important. He notes that many witnesses cited in the pro-Roswell books were never interviewed, and that information about what they supposedly did, saw, or said comes second-hand, from people who knew them. Nevertheless, the books refer to things these people said as if they were direct quotes. "Melvin Brown said," we'll read, when the correct statement would be "According to his daughter Beverly Bean, Melvin Brown said?" Good catch, Kal. (3) In nothing I'm about to say am I trying to settle the larger question of what crashed at Roswell. Maybe it was a Mogul balloon, maybe it was a UFO, maybe it was a dinnerplate thrown by an angry wife from another planet (to cite a theory put forth in a science fiction story published in the '50s, by a writer who thought it would be fun to take the notion of "flying saucers" literally"). I'm not taking a stand on any of this, and I won't be drawn into arguments about it. That said, it's time for business. I'll begin with Kal's comments about Pappy Henderson, the pilot who allegedly flew the UFO wreckage to Wright-Patterson air force base. Though Kal mentions Henderson elsewhere in the book, he principally discusses him on pp. 94-95. There we read first that Henderson "cannot be considered [a witness] for one simple reason: Pappy Henderson was _never interviewed_ about his purported involvement by UFO investigators." (Kal's emphasis.) True enough, Henderson was never interviewed, but I wonder why Kal emphasizes this so strongly. No UFO researcher claims to have talked to Henderson, and while I've granted Kal's point about the free and easy way that researchers sometimes cite second-hand testimony, here he sounds overly legalistic. Is Henderson, strictly speaking, a "witness"? Who cares? That's a semantic question. What matters is whether we can give him any weight at all when we sum up the Roswell evidence. Elsewhere, Kal notes the source for Henderson's supposed remarks -- reports from his wife and one of his friends. Is this admissible testimony? Of course it is. Note that I'm not asking whether the statements by family and friends are true. I'm asking whether it's fair to cite them. And the answer, very clearly, is yes, if you look at what's done outside the UFO field. Testimony about what other people said is allowed in court. It's frequent in magazine and newspaper journalism. It's common in biographies. It's expected in historical research. Why shouldn't it be allowed about Roswell? (Assuming, of course, that it's put forth as such, and given no more weight than it seems to deserve.) How can Kal banish Henderson from any discussion of the case? But Kal's reason becomes clear in the next paragraph. He writes: "Unfortunately, the only 'proof' that Henderson was even involved in the Roswell recovery comes from rumors and scuttlebutt courtesy of some of the surviving members of his family and a few acquaintances." And here I cry foul. "Rumors and scuttlebutt"? Those words would describe what we'd have if, let's say, Henderson's second cousin thought she remembered an aunt saying that Henderson's wife had talked about her husband flying alien debris -- something vague, impossible to verify, and several steps removed from the person we really care about. But that's not the situation at all. The key witness is Henderson's wife, Sappho. As I read in Kevin Randle's notes of his interview with her, she remembers that Henderson read a Roswell story in a tabloid (probably the National Enquirer, in the days when it covered UFOs). As she remembers, ""He said, well, I been wanting to tell you this for years, but I guess now it's not a top secret if they're putting it in the paper. And he said, 'I'm the guy who flew the wreckage of the space vehicle to Dayton, Ohio.'" Stanton Friedman and Don Berliner, in their Roswell book "Crash at Corona," quote a much lengthier statement, saying exactly the same thing. And, Friedman and Berliner say, Sappho Henderson's recollections were confirmed by her son and daughter, by one of Henderson's cousins, by his friend John Kromschroeder, and by an unnamed member of Henderson's air division, who heard Henderson talk about Roswell at a reunion in 1982, and after some intial skepticism, ended up believing him. All these people say they heard Pappy Henderson say more or less exactly what his wife says she heard him say. Whether we choose to believe them all (and, assuming we trust them, whether we believe that Henderson was telling the truth) is yet another story. But this isn't "rumors and scuttlebutt." Suppose we were reading one of Kitty Kelley's biographies. Suppose she reported a second-hand story about Frank Sinatra or Nancy Reagan, which she'd heard from six different people, who said they were there. Wouldn't we take it seriously? Why then does something very similar, but this time about an alleged Roswell participant, get dismissed as "rumors and scuttlebutt"? Kal can think anything he wants about Pappy Henderson. But here he misstated the facts. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 Korff on Roswell (2) From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:10:56 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:53:58 -0400 Subject: Korff on Roswell (2) Now I'll look at Kal Korff's treatment of Maj. Edwin Easley, the Provost Marshall at the Roswell air base, a job that put him in charge of the base's military police. Before going on, though, I want to restate one ground rule. I'm not taking a stand here on what really crashed at Roswell, or, for that matter, on the overall worth of Kal's book. I'm just commenting on three passages, in which he discusses things I know a little bit about. On to Easley. Kal has one piece of new information, the source -- and thus, the importance -- of which is oddly buried in his footnotes. This is that Easley "had a tendency to place himself in events at which he was not present." The source for this, according to the footnote, is Easley's physician. And while I give Kal full credit for finding this out, I must fault him for not telling us more. How long did this doctor treat Easley? How well did he know him? How often did Easley's memory confabulate in this way? What was the context of his confabulations? Without this information, there's no way to know what Korff's new data means. Did Easley imagine he was at family functions he'd actually missed (a relatively harmless invention), or did he speak of major trips, let's say, which in reality he'd never taken (which would be a lot more serious)? I'm sensitive to these matters partly because my own mother is 91, and has been losing her memory for the past two years. Right now I wouldn't trust her recollections even of things you'd think would be engraved in her brain cells, like the birth of her two children. But a year ago this wasn't so. Kal hasn't told us enough about Easley to let me know what to make of the new data. Moving on now to Easley's alleged role at Roswell, Kal writes the following: "Kevin Randle interviewed Maj. Edwin Easley shortly before his death. After initially refusing to confirm to Randle that he was even there at Roswell, Randle claims that Easley on his deathbed envetually confessed that not only had he 'been there,' but that he had also seen alien bodies. Indeed, the authors write, 'Easley was reluctant to talk of bodies, but finally, before he died, said that he had seen them. He had been close enough to them to know they weren't human. He called them "creatures."'" [For punctuation fans -- after 17 years of professional writing, I think this is the first time I've ever had to use three levels of quotation marks!] Kal then says, in much the spirit of his remarks on Pappy Henderson (see my previous message, "Korff on Roswell (1)"), that Randle wasn't present when Easley died, and that thus we have nothing but "Kevin Randle's 'word'" for what Easley said. "Until Kevin Randle is ever able to provide evidence and/or documentation to back up his statement," Kal concludes, "Easley's alleged deathbedremarks cannot be considered as credible evidence for the extraterrestrial nature of the Roswell incident." Kal, however, is not accurate in stating what really happened between Easley and Randle, or where Randle got his information. This perhaps isn't entirely his fault, because the sequence of events isn't completely clear in Randle's books, either; you have to dig in footnotes and appendices to fully comprehend it, and even then I'm not sure that everything is completely understandable until you look at Evin's files. Still, Kal should have checked and/or written more carefully, and not allowed himself to print such an inaccurate -- and, I'm afraid -- misleading summary of what Easley really said. Here's the true story. Kevin (as you won't understand from reading Kal's summary) interviewed Easley three times by phone. In the last of those conversations, Easley -- by no means on his deathbed -- told Kevin that the crash had involved an extraterrestrial craft. Later, when he was very sick and close to death, he murmured something about "the creatures," in a context that made it clear he was talking about Roswell. Admittedly, Kevin wasn't there, but --as Kal again doesn't tell us -- he has a reasonable source for the information. Kal wouldn't have known this from either of Kevin's books; I only know it because I found the document in Kevin's files. It's a letter from (if my memory is reliable here) a Dallas physician who knows Easley's daughter. Supposedly Easley's daughter showed her dad a copy of the first Randle/Scmitt Roswell book, with a comment something like "Dad, you're in this." Easley, very sick and soon to die, replied simply by saying "The creatures..." which I grant sounds like something out of a bad horror movie. But on the other hand the event may well have happened. The logical next step for Kevin would have been to call Easley's duaghter to confirm this. I don't know whether or not he did; he's guilty of sloppy work if he didn't, since as unchecked third-hand information, the letter from the man in Dallas isn't conclusive evidence by itself. Still, Kal was far too hasty here. If the source of Kevin's information wasn't clear to him, he should have picked up the phone and asked Kevin about it. (I'm not getting into the dispute between Kal and Kevin about what Roswell material was or wasn't available through CUFOS. If Kal couldn't get what he wanted through CUFOS, a call to Kevin was the logical, in fact inevitable next step. Had I been writing this story for a newspaper or a national magazine, no editor I've ever worked for would have let me publish until I'd made that call.) More serious, though, is Kal's failure to distinguish between this alleged deathbed conversation, which Kevin didn't hear first-hand, and Easley's alleged admission on the phone that the crash was extraterrestrial, which was supposedly made right in Kevin's ear. Kal also doesn't mention that Kevin talked to Easley three times on the phone, and, maybe most crucially of all, he leaves out one of the most central parts of the Easlsey/Randle saga, which is Easley's talk about being sworn to secrecy. Kal alludes to it, indirectly, when he says that Easlsey initially refused to confirm "that he was even there at Roswell." This statement, on its face, is not even correct, since Easley did state with no hesitation that he was at the base. Of course, Kal is simply using language freely here, and really means that Easley refused to confirm that he was involved in any crash activities. But even then Kal's sentence is misleading, because it leaves out the very crucial why and how of Easley's refusal. Here's the transcript of the start of Kevin's first talk with Easley: I regret that I didn't copy out the very start of the call, where Kevin introduces himself, and establishes that Easley was stationed at the Roswell base. From that point, however -- and I've omitted very little -- the conversation proceeds like this: KR: And I understand that you were the provost marshall at one time. EE: That's right. KR: At the 509th. During July of 1947? EE: Yes. KR: You're aware of the incident that took place there in July of '47? The alleged crash of a flying saucer? EE: [Pause] I've heard about it. KR: Do you have any first-hand knowlege of it? EE: About what? KR: Do you have any first-hand knowlege of the incident? EE: I can't talk about it. KR: Then you do have some first-hand knowlege? EE: I can't talk about it. KR: [Pause] Uh-huh. [Laughs nervously] EE: Uh-huh. KR: Well, we have, we have received information from a couple of people that, that you had been out at the crash site yourself as provost marshall. So that was what we were trying to confirm. But you can't talk about it, right? EE: Yes. KR: Is there anything at all you might be able to tell me that would help me in my search. EE: Help you what? KR: Help me learn exactly what happened there in 1947. EE: Well, you should start with, well, the former commander was Colonel Blanchard, but I think he passed away. KR: Yes, he died from a heart attack at the Pentagon. EE: Uh-huh. KR: And I've talked to Col. Birley, who was the operations officer, and Patrick Saunders, who was the adjutant. And we've been in contact with -- EE: Have you talked to the intelligence officer? KR: Major Marcel has talked, told others what happened. We have some taped interviews with him, talking about what he had seen the days he was there. And we've talked to some of the other fellows who were involved in the counterintelligence end of it. EE: Well, I think they can tell you everything you need to know. KR: Uh-huh. Can you tell me if you were at the crash site? EE: I can't talk about it, I told you that. KR: Yes sir, I understand. EE: I've been sworn to secrecy, I can't tell you that. **** But this wasn't the end of the conversation. Easley stayed on the phone with Randle for quite a while, offering more leads. And he took Randle's calls twice afterward. It's hard -- especially when you hear the tape, and can weigh Easley's tone, and, especially, take the measure of his silences -- not to form the impression that Easley really did know something important, or thought he did, and that he wanted, if not to talk about it, then at least to help Kevin find out everything he could. Why else would Easley offer name after name for Kevin to contact, as he did in the portion of the talk I haven't transcribed? This, I'd think, is greatly significant, even if what crashed was only a Mogul balloon. Easley's testimony helps establish that whatever happened was serious enough for the Air Force to cover up. Kal doesn't breathe a word of this, and hence has misrepresented both the tone and content of Kevin's interviews with Easley. Kevin, I have to say, made one serious mistake. He didn't tape the conversation during which, he says, Easley finally told his story, and stated that what crashed was alien. (Or, to be absolutely accurate, said that Kevin would be correct to believe such a thing.) So here we really do have only Kevin's "word" to rely on, along with his notes, of course, though when Kevin states (as he did in a previous message here) that his notes ought to be sufficient evidence, I can't agree. Though I trust Kevin's honesty, in something as earth-shaking as this I want a tape. Here was something Kal really could have nailed Kevin for. But he missed it -- and, as I've shown, garbled the Easley story, as well as making the elementary journalistic mistake of failing to call a source to supply missing information. Greg Sandow (It may take me a few days to get to part three of my comments, which will be about General Exon. But maybe that will give Kal time to respond.)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 21 From: Masinaigan@aol.com Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:10:18 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 21 UFO ROUNDUP Volume 2, Number 21 May 25, 1997 Editor: Joseph Trainor FLYING TRIANGLE SPOTTED IN CENTRAL PENNSYLVANIA On Sunday, May 18, 1997, at about 6:30 p.m., a handful of people standing in the church parking lot at the intersection of Pennsylvania Route 443 and Appleby Road, near Linglestown, Pennsylvania (Pa.) were startled by the appearance of a "flying triangle." Ten-year-old Adam Wentworth described the UFO as "a perfect triangle with lights on each side. Five lights per side (and) an end light on both sides. Twelve lights in all." At that distance, the object appeared to be "one inch long" and "moved much faster than any plane." Jane Wentworth, Adam's mother, said the UFO was "to the north directly over Route 81. We soon realized it was not a plane and observed a triangle appearing to be six inches across." Mrs. Wentworth was "uncertain" as to how high the UFO flew. But it "was real low" and "moved slowly to the west." Gwen Hastings, Adam's aunt, was also in the church parking lot. Ms. Hastings said, "The triangle flew overhead, moving in a west-northwest direction. The lights gave the appearance of protruding from the actual craft." The group lost sight of the UFO when it dropped toward forest-covered Second Mountain. The sighting took place in a rural section of Linglestown, about seven miles (11 kilometers) north of Harrisburg, the state capital of Pennsylvania. (Email Interview) TRIANGULAR UFOs TURN UP IN RICHMOND, CALIFORNIA On Thursday, May 15, 1997, at 12:07 a.m., Robert Haines stepped outside of his home in Richmond, California (population 74,676). His home is on a hillside a few hundred yards from Interstate Highway 80. Haines, an amateur astronomer, noticed that the sky was "clear and illuminated by the first quarter moon." But as he looked towards San Francisco, he noticed something strange. "I saw a black equilateral trianglar object about the size of a half-dollar held at arm's length, moving swiftly to the east-northeast about five degrees north of directly overhead," Haines reported. "It had three lights, one at each of the vertices. These were orange-yellow and appeared as bright as fourth magnitude stars. Each light appeared to be divided into two hemispheres along the axis of motion. The object was moving in the direction of one of the vertices at a high rate of speed. The duration of my sighting was about four seconds." "As it passed overhead," he added, "I leaped to my feet to continue observing, but was unable to pick it up because of its general dimness and the proximity of a very bright street lamp. It produced no noise except perhaps the faint sound of rushing air. However, the nearness of the (Interstate 80) freeway makes that impression unreliable." Twenty hours later, Haines was again in the backyard, ready to make observations. He wasn't disappointed, because at approximately 10:43 p.m., he made visual contact with a UFO. "I saw a group of lights, perhaps eight or nine clustered near the front edge of a black triangular object with angles of about 120 degrees, 35 degrees and 25 degrees," Haines reported. "The object was traveling northeast at a high speed with the largest angle in the front and the smallest angle to the northwest. Also, it was about as large as a half-dollar held at arm's length." "It passed directly overhead and made no noise," he added. "I observed this object for about six or seven seconds. Its lights were also about fourth magnitude and looked like eyes--almond-shaped with a dark center. I may have been mistaken about this because of the dimness of the lights and the high speed of the object... It should be mentioned (that) the first object was moving along a flight path out of SFO (San Francisco International Airport) used by passenger craft at high altitude." (Email Interview) BLACK HELICOPTERS PATROL SKIES IN FRESNO, CALIFORNIA On Tuesday, May 20, 1997, viewers in Fresno, California (population 218,202) were startled when Channel 30, the city's ABC-TV affiliate, aired a 15-minute segment on UFOs. Highlighting the segment was a brief tape, alleged to have been shot in Fresno, showing "a round glowing object." Prior to the Channel 30 presentation, city residents had been puzzled by reports of black helicopters on patrol over McKinley, Belmont and Olive Avenues, just north of Chandler Airport. Eyewitness Jeff Heuer, who lives near McKinley Avenue, said he saw one black helicopter flying over the neighborhood on May 10 at about 9 p.m. The black chopper was flying low, about 100 feet (30 meters) above the ground, at an estimated speed of 160 mph. One week later, on Saturday, May 17, 1997, at 10 p.m., Heuer spotted two more black helicopters. "There were two of them in close formation," he reported, "No sound, no exhaust, and no flashing lights--just a steady white light. They flew very close to the ground, from the southeast to the northwest. (Kings Canyon Road to Herndon Avenue-J.T.) Definitely looked like helicopters--but very Stealth-like." Questioned about the helicopters' appearance, Heuer said they had a "wide fuselage, no visible (tail) rotor, could not see underbelly--no visible landing gear. No noise of any type. No exhaust. Both were in tight formation, with one just in front of the other. The one in the rear seemed to be on the right-hand side of the one in the lead." (Email Interview) (Editor's Comment: From Jeff's description, the aircraft sound like the new Eurocopter NH-90. But, according to Aviation Week and Space Technology for May 27, 1997, there are only a few prototypes of the NH-90, and all are in Europe. The first NH-90s won't be out of production until 2002.) WISCONSIN FAMILY CONFIRMS NEW BRIGHTON UFO SIGHTING A Wisconsin family claims to have sighted three UFOs on April 25, 1997, the night over 30 UFOs were seen over New Brighton, Minnesota, just north of the "Twin Cities" of Minneapolis and St. Paul. The family lives in Oconomowoc, Wisconsin (population 9,909), located 40 miles (64 kilometers) west of Milwaukee. "We are avid sky watchers and go 'sky fishing' on clear nights, one or two nights a week," Mr. P.H. said. "For months, we have observed extremely high moving objects which traverse the sky in a few minutes. Under the increased power of my binoculars, they appear solid, self-illuminated and round. These objects, which we named 'High Movers'...are moving in a north-to-south or south-to-north direction, with slight east and west variations. This is not consistent with satellites." Also, P.H. pointed out that his family is seeing these "High Movers" at nighttime hours when convential orbital satellites are cloaked in Earth's umbra (shadow). "That night (April 25, 1997), my wife and I and our 13-year-old daughter had gone out about 9:30 p.m. to our favorite viewing spot outside of town (Oconomowoc)," he reported. "It is a remote, rural area, and the sky was crystal clear. That night we saw a total of seven High Movers." "Now, here is what is interesting," he added, "all but two were moving to the northwest, towards Minnesota! I followed one moving to the northwest about 9:45 p.m. with my binoculars and just as it was about to drop below the horizon, I saw another moving near it, more to the east. I was totally amazed to have two in my field of vision at the same time, since viewing through binoculars greatly restricts your field of vision. A third High Mover (UFO) streaked past both of them. Wow! I've never seen three in the sky at once...much less in the same binocular field of view." "I believe I was witnessing the comings and goings of some of the objects witnessed in Minnesota," he added, "The date was the same, the time was approximately the same, and the compass direction (northwest) appears to be the same, as well." (Many thanks to Steve Wilson for this news story.) CATTLE MUTILATIONS ON THE RISE IN SOUTHWEST USA Since late April, the number of cattle mutilations has increased sharply in the USA, with several new cases reported in Colorado and New Mexico. On April 29, a 7-year-old Hereford cow was found dead in Colorado's San Luis Valley, just north of the New Mexico state line. The animal was missing flesh from its left mandible and a substantial portion of its tongue. The left eye had been "carved out of its socket." Sheriff's deputies searched 1/4-acres around the carcass but found "no unusual tracks, prints or evidence was found." (See the Colorado newspaper The Valley Courier for May 15 and May 16, 1997.) On the morning of May 1, a rancher found his 11-month-old Hereford-Charolais bull dead in a 4-acre pasture near Arroyo Seco, New Mexico (population 500), located 46 miles (73 kilometers) north of Santa Fe. The case was investigated by the National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS). According to the NIDS report, which was posted by IUFO, the 400-lb bull "was lying on its left side facing north at the corner of the 4-acre pasture near the fence. The tongue was missing--it had been cut out by the root...The right eye was missing, and a quarter- sized hole on the right side of the neck was seen, which appeared by visible inspection to contain smooth edges. The penis and the testicles were removed through the rear of the animal and the scrotum was intact. The anus was missing, but appeared to have been damaged by predators." According to the NIDS report, the group's field investigation team also found "that some type of heavy mechanical object had made indentations 150 feet south of where the bull was found." The report noted that similar ground marks were found near a cattle mutilation in Dulce, New Mexico on April 24, 1978. On Tuesday, May 13, 1997, a rancher in Huerfano County, Colorado, just east of La Veta Pass, found two mutilated cows on his property. Missing from both cows were the eyes, mandible, tongue and rectum. The case was investigated by Officer Lonnie Brown of the Colorado Division of Wildlife. According to investigator Christopher O'Brien, author of THE MYSTERIOUS VALLEY (St. Martin's Press, 1996), this Huerfano County rancher "has lost quite a number of animals in the past, including four in 1994," a case investigated by Linda Moulton Howe and David Perkins. UFOs have also been reported in the same area of the San Luis Valley as the mutilations. A couple from La Veta, Colorado (population 611) told O'Brien that "they watched an unusual bright orange-red light that previous Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday (May 12 through May 14, 1997)." Six additional witnesses from La Veta told David Perkins that they saw a UFO in the area during the first week of May. According to the NIDS report released by IUFO, witnesses in Arroyo Seco, N.M. "testified that they had seen a green light flying in the area on the night of the bull's death," i.e. April 30, 1997. (Many thanks to Chris O'Brien and Yechiel A. Mann for these news stories.) COLORADO PILOT MYSTIFIED BY STRANGE RADIO CALL On Monday night, May 12, 1997, a Colorado pilot was flying near Walsenburg (population 3,945) when he picked up a strange call on his radio. "I was flying in clear VUCU sky (VUCU stands for "visibility unlimited, ceiling unlimited") when I picked up a weak communication on VoiceCom 121.5," the pilot reported. "This is the common-use emergency channel, and it is always monitored by commercial and most large private aircraft with more than one communications radio." "As well as I could, I was able to make out someone at Flight Level One-Two-Three-Five Hundred (123,500 feet or 37,424 meters--J.T.) requesting 'immediate traffic in area,.' There was obvious anxiousness in his voice, and he was talking to Air Traffic Control," he added, "The only thing I know that can travel at this altitude is the SR-71 Blackbird. Now it is not uncommon to see high-flying aircraft in this (San Luis) valley, but this guy is calling, in what must have surely seemed like some desperation, on the unsecured 121.5 emergency channel." "I have two wonderings--was the SR-71 on recon? For what? And why was he so concerned with traffic at an altitude that few pilots have ever been at?" (Many thanks to Chris O'Brien for this story.) (Editor's Comment: The pilot might use the civilian emergency channel if the military frequencies were being jammed. Then again, it might be some joker playing with a shortwave radio. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?) SKY BOOM REPORTED IN MISSOURI ON MAY 15 Two hours before a "mysterious explosion" rocked southern Ohio and northern Kentucky on Thursday, May 15, 1997, a similar blast was experienced in the city of St. Joseph, Missouri (population 76,691), located 54 miles (87 kilometers) north of Kansas City. Sally Freis, a spokeswoman for Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska, said the blast was "probably a sonic boom caused by an aircraft breaking the sound barrier." Ms. Freis told the media that the boom might have been caused by an SR-71 flying from Beale Air Force Base in California to Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland. Another spokesman, Lt. Chris Karns USAF, said "the aircraft would have been in northwestern Missouri about 2:30 or 3 p.m. on that afternoon." Officer Archie Auxier of the St. Joseph Police Department "said the boom felt like someone had hit his house, then things began to shake." Police dispatcher Beverly Dunn "was on her way to work at 2:30 p.m. when she heard what she thought was a blast. 'I heard an explosion, and I felt it in the South End,' she said, 'When I got here, they were getting calls from every place.'" (See the Springfield, Missouri News-Leader for May 17, 1997. Many thanks to Sam Uptegrove and Jerry Nieman of the Heartland Research Project for this news story.) MASS HORSE PANIC HAS DUTCH SCIENTISTS BAFFLED On Monday, May 5, 1997, at 1 p.m., a herd of about a dozen horses grazing near Udenhout in the Netherlands suddenly panicked and stampeded for no apparent cause. According to the Dutch newspaper Brabants Dagblad for May 7, 1997, "A group of ten horses were shocked enormously Monday afternoon by something in the (sand) dunes near Udenhout. The horses ran off and left the children, who had been riding them, behind and on foot." "At the same time, between Riel and Goirie, a horse hitched to a wagon ran away." "And in Hilvarenbeek, the citizens tell of seeing a horse running through the street." "We have not seen anything like this in years," said veterinarians J. Silkman and A. Aarts. "There must have been something in the air." However, the Koniklijk Nederlands Meteorologisch Instituut (KNMI) reported no unusual weather conditions. Meteorologist H. Haak said, "On Monday, between 1 p.m. and 1:15 p.m., we cannot see any weird readings." (Many thanks to Jeroen Wierda of Picard UFO Research International for this news story.) ROUNDUP CORRIGENDA: Last week your editor inadvertently mixed apples with oranges while reconstructing a UFO report from Uruguay. Here's how it should have read: On April 5, 1997, a group of eight people were hiking in the Sierra de las Animas, north of Maldonado, a city 90 kilometers (54 miles) east of Montevideo, the capital of Uruguay. Included in the group was Dr. Ricardo D. Arca. The group spotted four oval-shaped UFOs in the night sky near the constellation Southern Cross. The four UFOs moved about very quickly, and the group had them in view for 20 minutes. No video was shot during this encounter. However, Dr. Arca is in possession of a still color photo of a luminous oval-shaped UFO that was taken near a railroad track near Salto, a city 476 kilometers (285 miles) northeast of Montevideo, close to the Brazilian border. The photo was taken on September 15, 1996, and Dr. Arca has it availble for downloading. You can reach him at this email address: rdarca@adinet.com.uy. MORE OVERSEAS UFO VIDEO German ufologist Werner Walter has built up a video clearinghouse for Europe. He's looking for "video exchange opportunities" with UFO buffs across the globe. Werner has great videos, both of UFO sightings over Germany and TV programs devoted to UFOs from central Europe. Interested readers can contact him at this email address: 105156.3630@CompuServe.COM from the UFO Files... 1947: JUST BEFORE ROSWELL The Roswell incident of fifty years ago came at the high point of a UFO flap that began earlier in the spring of 1947. Here are a few of the incidents that took place back then. May 5, 1947 - "A silvery object was reported to have fallen out of the sky and disintegrated over Washington state (USA)." May 18, 1947 - "Several observers in Richmond, Virginia, saw a flat, white, cigar-shaped object speed across the sky at sunset, heading north-west." May 19, 1947 - "Between 12:15 and 1:15 p.m., a silvery object was seen approaching from the north- west toward Manitou Springs, Colorado. It halted, remained motionless for some minutes, and then started 'dancing' - performing complex aerobautics. Finally it rose and flew out of sight, against the wind." June 10, 1947 - "At 11 p.m., at Douglas, Arizona, Mrs. Coral (E.) Lorenzen watched a light rise from across the Mexican border, assume a spherical shape and disappear among the stars. The sighting lasted 10 seconds." Mrs. Lorenzen and her husband, Jim, subsequently founded the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization (APRO). (All quotes were taken from Peter Brookesmith's excellent book, UFO - THE COMPLETE SIGHTINGS, Barnes & Noble Books, New York, N.Y. 1995., page 37. This is the book that should be in every ufologist's library. They're still on sale at your local Barnes & Noble bookstore, so check it out.) FUN UFO WEBSITES For more info on the black helicopters sighted in Fresno last week, visit Jeff Heuer's Website at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/6210/ For a glance at the UFO scene in Eire, try Daev's Website at http://www.nua.ie/blather Our parent site, UFOINFO, has a new address: http://www.digiserve.com/ufoinfo/ And so do we! Now, let's see if I can get it right this week... http://www.digiserve.com/ufoinfo/roundup/ If you see a UFO story in your local newspaper, why not clip it out and send it to our snail-mail address? That's UFO ROUNDUP, Box 16, 126 Toll Gate Road, Warwick, Rhode Island, USA 02886 To report a UFO, email our newsletter at this address: Masinaigan@aol.com. That's it for this week. To our readers in the USA, enjoy the Memorial Day holiday. We'll be back next Sunday with more saucer news from "the paper that goes home--UFO ROUNDUP." See you then! UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1997 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from UFO ROUNDUP on their Websites and in news groups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of the newsletter in which the item first appeared. Search for other documents from or mentioning: masinaigan | rdarca |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:36:07 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:33:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? > Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:48:21 -0400 > From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? > > From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> > > To: "UFO Updates (E-mail)" <updates@globalserve.net> > > Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Debunker Containment Strategy? > > Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:24:01 -0400 > > [Greg started my day with a large smile - merci --ebk] > Here too.! > > I've been busy with nonsense having nothing to do with UFOs, but > > I can't resist a comment on.... > > > From: EdKomarek@aol.com > > > Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 21:59:26 -0400 (EDT) > > > To: updates@globalserve.net > > > Subject: Debunker Containment Strategy? > < snip > > > Now, I don't claim to be an expert on this laundry list of UFO > > enemies, but I do know a thing or two about the Weekly World > > News. > > I wrote a feature on it, got to know the editors, and even worked > > there for a week. > < big snip > > > Greg Sandow > Now that you are doing investigative journalism pieces Greg. > Perhaps you can address the issue why such a well recognized > work on the UFO field, Jerome Clark's three volume, The UFO > Encyclopedia, does not address the role of the intelligence > agencies in the history of the UFO phenomenon and interestingly > does [not? -ebk] even index the names of the intelligence > agencies in the index. They seem to have been written > right out of history in perhaps the most "authoritative" > "scholarly" reference on the ufo phenomenon. Is this a chance > occurence? How do you explain this? > Gary Alevy Gary, If you want an answer to this, the simplest thing would be to ask Jerry. We should remember, of course, that even in a three-volume encyclopedia not everything can be included. For instance, there's scant coverage of UFO matters abroad...no article about UFOs in France, though there IS one about UFOs in Australia. Choices have to be made. Evidently if you were editing the encyclopedia, you'd include entries on the intelligence agencies. If I were going to guess why Jerry didn't, I'd think that it's because there's just not that much verified information. Take the CIA. What do we know about their involvement with UFOs? We have a few documents recovered under the FOIA, fairly complete information about the Robertson Panel, and a few words from Victor Marchetti (who might be described as a CIA defector), to the effect that UFOs were evidently taken seriously during his years at the agency, though all he really reports is his sense of the atmosphere around the office. Maybe I've forgotten one or two things -- and of course there's Admiral Hillenkoetter's term on the NICAP board, he having been at one time head of the CIA. But that little matter illustrates the problems Jerry would face writing a CIA entry. What does it mean that H. was on the NICAP board? Does or doesn't that have anything to do with the CIA? We simply don't know. The article would end up having more speculation than proven fact. You might be comfortable with that, because you're fairly well convinced that the CIA has played a big UFO role. Jerry might not be, which I think is understandable, no matter how much you might disagree. Greg Sandow Search for other documents from or mentioning: gsandow | galevy |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 Re: CPR-Canada Web Site Update - May 25, 1997 From: psa@direct.ca (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:21:40 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:29:03 -0400 Subject: Re: CPR-Canada Web Site Update - May 25, 1997 CPR-CANADA WEB SITE UPDATE MAY 25, 1997 __________________________ In this update: 1995 / 1996 REPORTS NOW POSTED Canadian circle reports for 1995 and 1996 have now been posted! Reports from BC, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario. BLT SAMPLING PROCEDURES, NEW LAB REPORT TO BE POSTED SOON Revised (1997) BLT Research sampling procedures are now available, along with new lab report and analysis results of 1996 "Stonehenge Julia Set" formation. These should be posted in the next week or so. For further details on these and previous news items, please see the CPR-Canada web site at: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310 Keep checking for regular updates and news on 1997 Canadian circle formations. __________________________ Paul Anderson Director Circles Phenomenon Research Canada Affiliate of Circles Phenomenon Research International Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522 E-Mail: psa@direct.ca Web: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 The Roswell Wars - You ain't seen nothing yet From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:16:51 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:28:28 -0400 Subject: The Roswell Wars - You ain't seen nothing yet Recently as readers of UFO UpDates and other lists are aware debunker Karl Pflock has lit into Stanton Friedman. As most know Karl says he used to work for the CIA and DOD. I had been warning Stanton, Stacy, Hall, Whiting, Clark et all a year or two ago that Karl Pflock was a debunker and that they were playing right into his hands. It was obvious to me that Karl was building cover for the eventual debunking assault on the Roswell case. The Fund For UFO Research even gave Pflock more credibility as a UFO researcher by publishing his Mogul material. The only Major UFO investigator and researcher that I know of that saw what was coming was Kevin Randle. All these other UFO researchers and investigators even ended up defending Karl. Stanton was even talking about collaborating with Karl like on the Lazar case and how good Karl's research was if I remember correctly. I was clear to me that Pflock was building a base in conjuction with AFOSI's Col Weaver's propaganda effort. I reported in ORTK Bulletin #17 something to this effect. I don't have access to that old Bulletin but I was told I said something like this. "Moseley reported from the "Excluded Middle" that Weaver originally worked under Col. Barry Hennessey, who was listed in the Defense Dept. phone directory under the "Dept. of Special Techniques." It was Hennessey who was in charge of the campaign against Bennewitz, according to Bill Moore.'" If I remember correctly Kevin Randle and Karl Pflock were already going at it a year or two ago and some of these other establishment Ufologists were siding up with Karl. Well Stanton the ducks have come home to roost. Have a good fight. Stanton may be short sighted and foolish sometimes but he does know how to scrap. Karl will have his work cut out for him as Stanton is a old political warfare pro. The following posted to UpDates is vintage Friedman. " > [Pflock]Karl: Today is May 22 and your posting is apparently on many newsgroups. I can't seem to get through to you that I haven't had time to do the careful job that should be done re Todd, Marcel, Korff etc. I hope to get to it. You sound a bit like a spoiled brat who wants his ice cream NOW. I had been asked by many people if I didn't think you were still CIA. I had honestly stated that I don't know and have seen no evidence that you were. It is in my gray basket. Why this---" Oh wow Stanton where did that shot come from! Time to wake up Stanton et all. Oh, and hi Karl welcome to UpDates. The best, Ed Komarek (ORTK) ----------------------------------------------------- To subscribe to the ORTK BULLETIN send mail to: listserve@awaiter.com with the following text in the body of the message: subscribe ortk-bulletins To unsubscribe, send mail to: listserve@awaiter.com with the following text in the body of the message: unsubscribe ortk-bulletins You can put anything you want in the subject header To reach the list administrator mail to edkomarek@aol.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 Wales - 'Flying Triangle' From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> Date: 25 May 97 16:35:10 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:32:20 -0400 Subject: Wales - 'Flying Triangle' >From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 04:49:13 +0200 >Subject: 'Wales Flying Triangle Update' Stig forwarded; >The phenomenon is popularly known as The Flying >Triangle - a type of UFO which has been sighted elsewhere in Wales as >well as many countries throughout the world since the early 1980s. The main problem concerning these sightings is that they report a flying triangle, although the vast variances in performance, size, colour, lights, ability and side-effects vary hugely across the board. >We would also like to thank the staff at the Ministry of Defence That would be the ice queen, Kerry Philpott. Unfortunately AS2F know very little about the majority of sightings that don't find their way through the police/military channels. There is rampant speculation that there is another 'layer' relating to the DI/MI hierarchy above the air secretariat, but it's just speculation. The reason that it's reasonable speculation arises from the fact that AS2F has very poor files on any case. >It seems probable that they are instructed to stay well clear of these >craft, possibly due to the electro-magnetic discharges. This would not tie in with a craft that was seen heading for the North Sea testing grounds escorted by two Tornado jets. However, there appears to be more than one, etc. >Perhaps >such obstructionism is part of the "deal"? It's more indicitive of the lax budgeting for the related departments. >the East >Midlands have seen a large number of them And in the early Eighties, too. >and the Belgian sightings >from the early 1990s involved thousands of witnesses. They did? I was under the impression that the black triangles were reported by a couple of gendarmarie? >The Shape(s) was uncertain but the lights were described >as being "Christmas Tree" like. I take it that would mean strobing, and matching the navigation lights of most things in the air. Compare with the SOBEPS FT. >Flying Triangle "UFO" reports that have been compiled by various >sources, in particular Omar Fowlers Phenomena Research Association. It should be pointed out that Omar assumes that these are _all_ alien spacecraft. >propelled by an some form of electro-magnetic device which also could >possibly act as an anti-gravity force-field providing for inertia-free >acceleration/deceleration and flight. A nonsense sentence. A gravito-magnetic method of coupling would provide lift, but it would require a vectoring thruster of some description. The notion of a 'force-field' is science-fiction, as fields are an abstraction used to extrapolate a predicted set of data points from another set of measured data points. Inertia is not a function of gravity, but a function of mass and acceleration. >1987 using a microwave energy source >and that theoretically, an aircraft powered in this way would be able >to fly almost indefinitely provided the power continued to be beamed >at it. Without checking, this could be an aerospike, in which it wasn't actually a method of propulsion, but a method of increasing efficiency. Myrabo's 'beamships' would tend to act like elevators, and I have no idea how he's planning to ditch angular momentum from the surface to orbit. >This would alleviate the problems >associated with high g-force effects on pilots. But not those on the 'plane' itself. I believe that some of the best engineering we have can resist 22Gs along the centreline, but the SOBEPS 'thingies' were reported at 45Gs on the z-axis. >Wharton BAe Warton, Lytham, Lancashire. Slap bang in the middle of a residential estate. >It maybe that given the >apparent massive discharges of electro-magnetic energy coming from >this type of craft that it is not permitted to fly in certain >countries, but that the UK is once again acting as the USAs >hand-maiden. EMP weapons are notoriously indiscriminate, which limited their use to ICBMs for a while. I would expect to see misfirings blacking out small areas of this country, but we don't actually see much of that. Anyone got any good information on directable or discriminating EMP weaponry? >Matthews, Tim. L'enfant terrible. James A Diss ---------------------- HEALTH WARNING: Care Should Be Taken When Lifting This Product, Since Its Mass, and Thus Its Weight, Is Dependent on Its Velocity Relative to the User. -------------------- Search for other documents from or mentioning: 76710.234 |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 Kent Jeffrey, A 'Debunker'? From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:40:18 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:36:40 -0400 Subject: Kent Jeffrey, A 'Debunker'? Kent Jeffery's rumored change of heart on Roswell has quite a few people in the UFO community surprised, expecially when no new evidence has surfaced to warrant such a change. We all know that Jeffery has vigoriously debunked the alien autopsy film. Personaly I don't see his arguments holding up on that. Now I am told Kent is going public in a rather big way, that he has changed his mind about Roswell and believes that a alien spaceship did not crash at Roswell. If this turns out to be true and that he does go public in a major way in July, surprise surprise. Watch out for stories in major UFO publications in June and July. Roll out the red carpet folks, watch these publications play right into this possible deception. When this gets into the mainstream press, wow! Could it be that Jeffery is another debunker painting himself as a ligitimate UFO researcher only to surface as a Roswell debunker right at the time of Roswell's 50th anniversary. The timing could not be better for the maximum negative impact. Could he have joined and involved himself in the Roswell Initiative in order to distroy that initiative when the peak of publicity was on Roswell? Na, it couldn't be! Remember folks you heard it here first. The best, Ed Komarek (ORTK)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 Re: Mitchell Say's Ufologists Are Real Patriots From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> Date: 25 May 97 16:34:56 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:31:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Mitchell Say's Ufologists Are Real Patriots >Date: 24-May-97 18:54:01 MsgID: 824-94530 ToID: 76710,234 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto >INTERNET:updates@globalserve.net >Subj: UFO UpDate: Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's Ufologists Are Real Patriots >Chrg: $0.00 Imp: Norm Sens: Std Receipt: No Parts: 1 Ed wrote; >In reverse I think we could say that those UFO/ET debunkers connected to >various black projects should be considered treasonous public enemies. This >for deliberately disinforming and propagandizing the people. This UFO/ET >propaganda and psycological warfare assault is contrary to the American >Republic and against everything the Constitution stands for. Thank God that UFO thing is only an American problem. And I take it that Psychological warfare is OK when used on the 'bad guys'(tm); or maybe you should start mentioning the shoddy 'Metallica' (Pigface or NIN would have been better, but the military doesn't have much imagination) that Noriega was forced to listen to? Hmm? It's all very well labelling people, but I don't see you acknowledging even the slightest smidgeon of a spark of an idea that you _could_ be wrong. >I think those of us that are informed can now see that there is a >loosely organized effort underway to discredit Roswell by any means >necessary. Actually it's incredibly disorganised, and we've been over the same old ground before, but this is a new slant. They call it 'Jihad' out East. (That's outside of America, Ed.) Jihad relates to a holy war, which is usually started on the sayso of one guy with little or no reason given, other than the 'target' _deserves_ it due to a loose set of criterion, such as a largely unfounded accusation of collusion from some assumed deep black intelligence organisation that considers the average UFOlogist with not a little trepidation and fear. Of course, to the informed individual the last three lines of the above paragraph are laughable, but it's alledgedly quite a popular idea. This explains the draconian steps that have been taken to stop publishing of UFO books and general local government opposition towards conferences... Sh*t, there isn't any. Well, ignore that idea then. Y'see, there are better ways to supress information about the subject, and my particular slant would be to produce _two_ conflicting UFO books about a given subject and let UFOlogists form into two sides. Incidentally, I do this too, and happen to consider myself a proto-UFOlogist. Don't take it personal guys. Consider yourself in government shoes for a moment; would you release a book confirming or denying the existence of a particular conspiracy? Bear in mind that confirmation tends to be swallowed while denial is treated with outright derision. Gentlemen, those BS filters have to be critical from all sides, non-selectively. Now, I recently got jumped on for suggesting that there was little or no information on a wider coverup, and apart from Gary's abrasive but thought-provoking messages on the subject, and the Moynihan report is recommended reading for all interested in secrecy (I wish our government was as 'open'); I received no come-back. I concede that 'Twinkle', 'Sign' and 'Grudge' were undertaken as AF projects, but they were fairly open. Twinkle was classified, but at the time it could have presented a bit of an embarrassment to have this thing treated in the tabloid manner, and the subject was serious. Now we've all heard about William Moore's unfortunate episode concerning Doty and the intelligence services, and he even concedes the point (with large prominent 'IF's) that some of his further work could have been created, but to my knowledge this is the ONLY direct government intervention I can place, particularly if you cut out the faulty Lazar 'evidence'. I'm seriously looking for information that the government, in any incarnation, can be connected to widespread suppression of information. We have a precedent, but no history. How much information from largely anonymous sources is promoted by Government? The problem is not the names in this business, but the unknowns. They are a more viable conduit. Of course, this does assume that you ain't just sore at those you label as skeptics/debunkers... James A Diss ---------------------- HEALTH WARNING: Care Should Be Taken When Lifting This Product, Since Its Mass, and Thus Its Weight, Is Dependent on Its Velocity Relative to the User. --------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 Leir on 'Autopsy' From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:46:09 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:55:56 -0400 Subject: Leir on 'Autopsy' [The following is apparently written by Roger Leir, Podiatrist - ebk RKLeir1st@aol.com wrote: Autopsy Film? If so here it is in brief. You may quote me: I have reviewed this film many times, either alone or with other Doctors and Surgeons. I have also reviewed it numerous times frame by frame with the MUFON Board of Ventura County. I have been performing surgery on the human body now for over thirty years. When I was in my second year in medical school I was a TA with the anatomy department and taught the subject. I can not tell anyone whether the BEING depicted in the film was a real living creature or a very clever invention of the modern special effects world. However, I can categorically state the following: The manner of which the dissection is carried out appears to be authentic and the trite INACCURATE criticism of Mr Korf borderlines on the absurd. No two surgeons are trained in the same manner as long as the general principals of good surgical technique are employed. It makes no difference whatsoever how one holds the scissors or any surgical instrument as long as its use is in keeping with the designed intent for the instrument. It was interesting that Korff points out the technique of using (NEGATIVE PRESSURE), THAT MEANS THE STEADYING OF YOUR HAND AGAINST ANOTHER PORTION OF THE DISSECTION FIELD TO STEADY YOUR HAND FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING A PRECISE CUT. I am really surprised that this technique was used at all due to the fact that the subject was deceased and there is no need for such precision. This also points to the fact that the person doing the dissection was most probably a surgeon and not a pathologist. Either that or he was an actor trained and coached by experts. The one strongest factor for realism in this film is THE TECHNIQUE used for dissection. The second strongest factor is the resilience of the tissue itself and how it comes apart. If this was non living material, it would have to be very cleverly concocted. As far as the way the entity seems to bleed: If indeed, it was a living organism that was deceased and then dissected as the film preports it to be, did it ever occur to Mr Korff that the body may have been quick frozen and then thawed prior to dissection. If that were the case the incision sites would ooze just as depicted in the film. Nextly it is quite a long reach to suppose that an alien being would have the same type of bloody fluid coarsing thru its vessels as its human counterpart. Last but not least is the gripe about the abdominal and thoracic organs looking phoney. It seems to me that if I were the anatomical consultant for this elaborate hoax, I would construct or use actual organs found in the human body. Now why do you suppose this was not done? Is there a possibility of an off world creature having organs that do not match ours and also having different physiological functions? I think so. Also, if this film is actually found to be a clever hoax, did it ever occur to anyone that it may have actually been made as a copy of something that was real and actual? All on that subject, as I could go on and on. Your Friend, Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 Secrecy and general attacks From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> Date: 25 May 97 16:35:03 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:34:51 -0400 Subject: Secrecy and general attacks >Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 20:14:14 +0200 (MET DST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? Henny penned; >I have been reading James Diss' postings, and especially his >exchange with Gary Alevy, with tremendous disdain. Diss is treating >other contributors on this list without any respect, writes >without any coherence, claims he knows things without ever >proving that and seems uninformed about UFOs and related matters >to begin with. You're entitled to that opinion, Henny, but to claim that I'm incoherent is stretching the point a little, as the only complaint I've received to date is from yourself. Respect is earned, as I'm finding out from the little that I've received during this larger exchange, and no-one seems to worry about claims being proved in this field anyway. I'm quite willing to explore the claims if you can get off this high horse regarding my personal attributes, all of which I'm quite comfortable with. If you want to continue a set of general insults, please do so via Email, where I can set your address for blocking, and avoid having to read such information poor messages. To whit, we address the first point; >> It is: 'Gary wrote', mister Dish, er... Diss. << Not necessarily, depending on how I'm feeling. My software requires a tad more editing than Eudora Pro. By the way, that one got old in Primary school. There are more creative ones to try, and I'm endlessly amused by such things. >> Incoherent gibberish. << OK, I'll paraphrase it for you. If anyone wants to comment on readability, I'd be pleased to learn a better way of constructing sentances so everyone on the list can understand them. 'Intentional deception', as inferred by Gary's message, is called 'disinformation'. 'Ignorance' is called 'misinformation'. A good dictionary has these definitions. Are you with me so far? Now, Gary used both phrases in his reply to me, indicating either 'disinformation' or 'misinformation' on my part. I just wanted a direct opinion as to which I was using, because I would have explained, if challenged directly on that point, that I _don't_ have evidence that can confirm that point, and the only example I was given was faulty. I expected a slightly more gentle reply, to be honest. I'm quite sensitive to such things and bruise easily. >> Highschool playground arrogance. << Just asking for clarification of a claim that I doubted could be backed up. Would it help if I used the phrase 'Double dog dare'? Assuming that you can provide a list of ten, why say that? What possible information could be conveyed by a general charge that I'm presumptive? Henny, it would save a lot of time and bandwidth if you just cut to the chase and called me an asshole. >> It's Diss missing the point. << Like I said, endlessly amused. (Don't forget the 'ebonics' _dissing_, either. I rolled about when I first saw that) >> In fact there are many leaks, every serious student of this phenomenon knows that. << So you've confirmed my point that watertight classified projects don't exist? >You apparently never heard of the MJ 12 Training Manual. Yes, but I don't assume it's _real_. I'd be interested in some of the huge mountains of administrative red-tape that would follow such a department rather than a rather suspect 'training manual' turning up. A serious student such as yourself understands that limited circulation documents are numbered... I take it you _don't_ find it suspicious that the documents that _do_ turn up tend to be pretty weighty things that would demand, by their very nature, high security? It falls into the bracket I call 'convienient'. As anyone in business knows, even the smallest operation generates mountains of paperwork, and an active UFO suppression department would be no exception. I'd like to direct your attention to Gersten's claims* of 1981 that 3000 released FOIA documents provide 'overwhelming proof that UFO's exist'. 3000 documents? 1000 per decade? Wow. So where is it? 16 years, so far, and we've managed to establish that the AF admitted that there were things flying about. But there is a twist; they refused to release some documents under national security grounds. 192 of them. Six sheets a year from all interested parties? The Blue book 'unknowns' (and I'm not referring to the misclassifications) out number them by a factor of a tad over 3. They picked and chose? Tell me if any of that's incoherent. >I don't. It shows, believe it or not, but you were careful to pick out the defensive bits rather than the information to reply to. >If you would claim that I think that few people would believe >you. Good, as this shows a bit of critical thinking, or prejudice if you take the slightly negative connatation of that sentence. >DI 61 means: >Diss' postings on UFO Updates are Devoid of Information whether you >read them once or 61 times. Suprising that such students of Government secrecy history would not look back at the interesting intelligence structure set up by Elizabeth I, including DI61 (Defence Intelligence section 61, in longhand). However, I found that last crack vaguely amusing in a general comedy posting. Keep it up, Henny! Love'n'kisses, James A Diss ---------------------- HEALTH WARNING: Care Should Be Taken When Lifting This Product, Since Its Mass, and Thus Its Weight, Is Dependent on Its Velocity Relative to the User. --------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 #2 Berlin Memorandum about Roswell From: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de (Joachim Koch) Date: 25 May 97 22:44:00 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:41:58 -0400 Subject: #2 Berlin Memorandum about Roswell Date: 25 May 97 19:43:00 GMT From: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de <Joachim Koch> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Subject: Berlin Memorandum #2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *continued from part one* >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:30:19 -0700 From: *Andreas von Retyi* Blinkered mentality in science is absurd. It is easy, considering the massive official secrecy, to explain away the unusual. But, as long as negativists have no evidence and real explanations for the so far unsoveld facts, we have to do insistent research in "Roswell" Public pressure, such as it comes from the Roswell Initiative, is of greatest importance ti minimize the imbalance of power and to show the rulers of this world that their hidden activities are not performed in completely darkness. We have the right of free information. Publicity should not be underestomated as a tool of control whereas everything which happens under complete secrecy is out of any control. There's no excuse that the public is desinformed in such an amount as it happens, for example, with Roswell by the U.S. Air Force. The contradictions have shown that with this incident far more is linked than the crash of a simple balloon. *Andreas von Retyi, Switzerland* ********** Date: Sun 18 May 1997, 22:22 GMT From: *Mario Ringmann* Roswell -- a myth which made history. Until today no one really knows the correct story about the alleged crash of an extraterrestrial craft. Since six years I know about this incident and meanwhile it became most likely to me that it was something not from this world what crashed there in 1947. Since the beginnig I supported the International Roswell Initiative which has the aim to bring light into the UFO secrecy and bring it to an end. I think it is high time to put one's cards on the table. Humankind has a right to know the truth. *Mario Ringmann, Germany* *Editor UNKNOWN REALITY* ********** Date: 19 May 97 08:10:08 EDT From: *Bob Shell* Certainly I support the Roswell initiative. I signed one of the petitions a long time ago, and want an end to all government secrecy. As long as governments hold knowledge captive, there can be no true freedom for mankind. I do not know what happened in New Mexico in the summer of 1947, but I have talked to enough witnesses first hand, and seen and read the witness of others, and I am convinced that something very strange happened. As I have said many times about the "official explanation", this balloon just does not fly! *Bob Shell* ********** Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:33:10 -0400 (EDT) From: *Ed Komarek* Note in support of the International Roswell Initiative: I Ed Komarek am a co-founder of Operation Right To Know (ORTK). Operation Right To Know has and continues to support the International Roswell Initiative. We too are puzzled by Kent Jeffreys sudden change of heart. We of ORTK feel very strongly that the evidence collected to date on Roswell strongly supports the premise that a flying saucer of extraterrestral origin did crash near Roswell in 1947 and was covered up by the United States Government. We are also aware of attempts by several individuals, some with intelligence backgrounds, to debunk the Roswell case. The arguments being made against Roswell simply to not stand up under close scrunity. These debunkers with connections to the nortorious and unscientific CSICOP organization seem to be part of a UFO/ET containment strategy attempting to discredit Roswell in particular and UFOs in general. *Ed Komarek* ********** Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:42:53 -0400 (EDT) From: *Michael Lindeman* The mystery regarding a possible recovery of a crashed UFO near Roswell, New Mexico in 1947 remains, 50 years later, unresolved. One of the few first-hand eyewitnesses still living, physician Jesse A. Marcel Jr., says he remains convinced he was shown highly unusual pieces of wreckage taken from the debris field near Corona by his father, Major Jesse Marcel. Arguments put forward by authors such as Karl Pflock and Kal Korff, and especially by the U.S. Air Force, that this debris was entirely caused by a so-called Mogul balloon are not conclusive. Meanwhile, allegations of a second crash site, while problematical, have the support of deathbed testimony by a number of soldiers and other credible eyewitnesses, and are likewise supported by the second-hand but trustworthy testimony of Glenn Dennis. Furthermore, there can be no reasonable doubt that the U.S. government has engaged in long-running deception regarding possible evidence of UFO activity, such that the recent efforts by the U.S. Air Force to finally resolve the Roswell mystery cannot be considered reliable. With all this in mind, I believe it is essential that the broad public demand for disclosure of official UFO information, as exemplified by the international Roswell Initiative, be carried forward until that public demand is satisfied. The innumerable UFO encounters recorded around the world have profound implications for all humankind. The truth behind these events is not and cannot be the property of any single government, less still of any secret faction within a government. Therefore, the Roswell Initiative and other similar public actions must go forward until the truth is told. *Michael Lindeman* *Editor, CNI News* ********** From: *Jesse Marcel, Jr.* I am convinced that Roswell represents an extraordinary event where beings from another star system met an unhappy end. Any single persons story concerning the Roswell event would not stand alone on its own merit, but when you collectively add all of these anecdotal accounts together, you must come to the same conclusion that I have -- and that is the event at Roswell is the crash of an alien interplanatary vehicle. When you rule out all other explanations, the one explanation that is left is the accurate one even if it is most outlandish. Keep up your good work on the 'International Roswell Initiative' , the world deserves a better answer than the one our government would have you believe. *Jesse Marcel, Jr.* ********** From: *Steven M. Greer M.D.* We would love to see you in England this summer, and certainly support your Roswell initiative. Technically, it may be better to call it the New Mexico UFO crash of the 1947 era, since the crash situation is more complex than anyone could have suspected when it was called the Roswell Event. *Steven M. Greer, M.D., U.S.A.* *Director of CSETI* ********** Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:51:07 +0000 From: *Luc Buergin* The Roswell case could represent one of the greatest revelations in the history of humankind - the knowledge that we, as intelligent life, are not alone. For this reason it should be pursued relentlessly with no respect to the benefit of the researchers. We all should stay close together and steadfast in our quest for the thruth." *Luc Buergin, Switzerland* ********** Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:24:12 -0400 (EDT) From: *Jochen Kopp* The Roswell crash is without any doubt the most important incident for the UFO research. Thousands of hours of investigations, conducted by our most estimated researchers, brought to light hundreds of witnesses, among them first-and second-hand ones and others. these were all humans who were involved in the retrieving of the debris and the deceased extraterrestrial bodies and who have hardened their testimony by their oaths. This caused a severe notch into the armature of the UFO cover-up. Now it is up to us, in a joint effort, together with the International Roswell Initiative, to breack through this armament. Now we have the chance to do so -- let's seize it! *Jochen Kopp, Germany* *Editor THE UFO-KURIER* ********** Internet: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de Homepage of the International Roswell Initiative, Germany: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/Homepages/JKoch1
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 #1 Berlin Memorandum about Roswell From: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de (Joachim Koch) Date: 25 May 97 22:43:00 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:40:28 -0400 Subject: #1 Berlin Memorandum about Roswell Date: 25 May 97 19:43:00 GMT From: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de <Joachim Koch> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Subject: Berlin Memorandum #1 ********************************************************************* *I n t e r n a t i o n a l R o s w e l l I n i t i a t i v e* ********************************************************************** German Coordinators Joachim Koch and Hans-Juergen Kyborg May 1997 **************** *B E R L I N M E M O R A N D U M* **************** The International Roswell Intiative is based upon an idea of Joachim Koch and Hans-Juergen Kyborg who intended to support the research of Mr. Kent Jeffrey in the so-called Roswell-Incident of 1947 after a meeting with him in the lobby of the Palace-Hotel, Berlin, in 1993. Our idea was to write down a text which should be distributed worldwide and signed by as many people as possible to make it the most powerful grassroots effort in modern UFO history. We wrote a letter to Mr. Jeffrey and explained our project. Thus, he wrote the "Roswell Declaration" and brought the International Roswell Initiative to life. At that time it seemed to be within reach that an Executive Order could be induced by Congressman Steven Schiff and the Declaration should be a most powerful tool to support this. By the time, the Roswell Declaration really became powerful by the signatures of 20,000(plus) people from all over the world. Despite all momentary developements all the 20,000 plus signed Roswell Declarations will be delivered to the White House in early July as Kent Jeffrey promised in a fax dated of May 8th 1997. The Initiative received signed Declarations from people of all ages and professions including two Apollo astronauts. And it seemed, that the Roswell Declaration could generate within those who had signed it some kind of trust and - hope. Because of his personal conclusions, Kent Jeffrey marches no longer with us on our way towards the truth about the Roswell Incident which still remains unsolved. As far as we and other researchers know no new documents which have surfaced and according to the testimony of Jesse Marcel, Jr., his hypnosis session in Washington in late Winter 1997 brought no new information to what he has remebered and told before about what he saw when in July 1947 his father brought the unusual debris into the kitchen of his home. So we, the German Coordinators of the Roswell Initiative, feel obliged to all those who have signed the Declaration to show them all that the trust and hope they have invested in the Initiative was and is fully justified. We, Hans-Juergen Kyborg and Joachim Koch, are born in a city which has suffered a lot in the years after WW II. Especially we Berliners have experienced what it means to have friends whom you can trust and who give you hope for a better future and what it means to resist in a united effort. Bound to these ideals we, as the German Coordinators and as Berliners, declare publicly that we stay steadfast to the primary goal of the Roswell Initiative: to find out the truth about what happened in New Mexico in 1947 and to continue in our effort to end the policy of secrecy and cover-ups on a fact that has become crystal-clear to everyone who has done serious and open-minded research in what is called the UFO phenomenon: that we are not alone in the universe. We shall withstand all attempts to diminish the power of the International Roswell Initiative such as official reports and film footage in the past or secluded conclusions in the present. Independent, serious and self-critical researchers have provided piece after piece of an enigmatic puzzle and will continue to do so. And more and more, one certain picture crops out: Roswell *was something* *else* than the crash of a (or some) balloon(s) constisting of mundane material like balsa wood and flower painted tape. *Shouldn't we all declare that we are Berliners -- again?* If you think that what is written above corresponds to your point of view and you would like support this BERLIN MEMORANDUM please feel free to do so - no matter where you are, where you come from and what your education is - by sending us a few sentences with your current view of Roswell and, if you think so, why it is important to have such efforts like the Roswell Initiative. We would appreciate to add your supporting comments to the many others you can read below (in order of the date of income). We shall publish the updated BERLIN MEMORANDUM from now on once a week until July 8th 1997. *Upon our request worldwide know and respected* *researchers have sent us spontanuously and* *immediately in an act of solidarity their view* *of the current state of Roswell and their opinion* *about an effort such like* *the International Roswell Initiative.* *This is the place to say thank you with all our heart.* (All the following contributions are in order of the incoming date) Date: Tue, 13 May 97 22:49 +0100 From: *Dr.Johannes Fiebag* What happened 1947 in Roswell? To be honest: I dont know. But only a few people here on this planet will know what realley happened there. Was it the crash of a weather balloon? Or a spy balloon? Or after all an extraterrestrial spacecraft? On thing is for sure: since Roswell gained more and more attention for the researchers and the media since the seventies, the attempts of covering-up, disowning and debunking of official and non-official, of governmental as well as obscure private (or alledgedly private) groups and individuals increased in an astonishing rate. To say it clearly: if it really was "only" a MOGUL balloon, which crashed in the desert of New Mexico, then one must say that the U.S. Air Force during the past decades has done everything to contribute to the momentary confusion and lack of information by its dubious behavior (or was this full intention...?) And if not? If was something different? Then it is high time - despite all developments, disclaimers and contradictions - finally to put the facts and the truth on the table. To achieve this is the basis of the Roswell Initiative. And no matter which is one's own point of view regarding this incident, we all should be interested to know the truth! *Dr. Johannes Fiebag, Germany* ********** Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 05:24 GMT From: *Walter-Joerg Langbein* 50 years have passed by since the Roswell Incident. No one, no single group, has the right to have information about "UFOs" for its own. There is the central question: are we alone in the universe? Every human being here on this planet has the right to get every information which could help to answer this. For these reasons I support the Roswell Initiative since years in my books. It is the main concern that impotant information which are withheld from the public due to official cover-up policy must no put into the open. Therefore was and is the Roswell Initiative still of greatest importance. *Walter-Joerg Langbein, Germany* ********** Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:29:51 -0300 From: *Stanton Friedman* As the nuclear physicist who began the civilian investigation of the l947 Roswell Incident in 1978, was the first to locate and talk to many witnesses and as author or coauthor of numerous relevant papers and 2 books "Crash at Corona" and TOP SECRET/MAJIC, I am absolutely convinced that the evidence is overwhelming that the US government recovered the wreckage of 2 crashed flying saucers (one in the Plains of San Augustin, the other near Corona) and several alien bodies New Mexico in July 1947. The Mogul explanation doesn't fit the data. The government should offer total amnesty to military or other witnesses connected with the two recoveries (New Mexico, July 1947), since according to the USAF a long since declassified MOGUL balloon was all that was involved. If they cannot offer amnesty, one has to ask why not? *Stanton Friedman, Canada* ********** Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 10:13:02 -0400 (EDT) From: *Kevin Randle* There is no doubt in my mind that what fell outside of Roswell, New Mexico was a craft built on another planet. There is no doubt that the military, and the American government initiated a cover-up to hide these facts. And there is no doubt that the copver-up persists today. The Roswell Initiative is important because it is the first coordinated effort to crack through that cover and learn the truth. *Kevin Randle, U.S.A.* ********** >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *continued in part two* >>>>>>>>>>>>> Internet: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de Homepage of the International Roswell Initiative, Germany: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/Homepages/JKoch1
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 20 - 'Chupas' From: DianeOmega@aol.com Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:20:40 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 20 - 'Chupas' In a message dated 5/18/97 9:07:33 PM, Joseph Trainor wrote: >From: Masinaigan@aol.com >Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 13:11:37 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 20 > UFO ROUNDUP >Volume 2, Number 20 >May 18, 1997 >Editor: Joseph Trainor [snip] >CHUPACABRAS SCARE >SWEEPS BRAZIL >Stories of a strange Chupacabras-style creature >that attacks sheep have created panic among >"chacareiros" (ranchers) in Brazil's southern states >of Sao Paulo and Parana. >Known as "O Bicho" (pronounced Beee-shoooo), >meaning "The Beast," the creature has killed over 50 >sheep since January 28, 1997. >A woman of rural Sao Paulo state, who saw Bicho >two weeks ago, described the creature as "two meters >tall (six feet, six inches), very thin, with small forearms >and long claws, and of a dark gray color." >Tracks left by Bicho also seemed puzzling. Ramos >Lago said that at times the creature appeared to stand >and move on two legs, and at other times, it appeared >to be moving on four legs. [snip] While in a bakery, I saw some shaped cookies, and said to myself: "a Chupacabra!!?? Why on earth?". A second's reflection, and I realized..of course, the bakers had made dinosaurs. Do any of you think there might actually be some relation between the two species, if Chupacabras exist? Dianne Cameron
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 Re: Wales - 'Flying Triangle' From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:53:31 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:57:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Wales - 'Flying Triangle' > From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, on 5/26/97 9:32 AM: > Date: 25 May 97 16:35:10 EDT > From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Wales - 'Flying Triangle' > >From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 04:49:13 +0200 > >Subject: 'Wales Flying Triangle Update' > Stig forwarded; > >This would alleviate the problems > >associated with high g-force effects on pilots. > But not those on the 'plane' itself. I believe that some of > the best engineering we have can resist 22Gs along the centreline, > but the SOBEPS 'thingies' were reported at 45Gs on the z-axis. Actually, missile systems resist much higher Gs, on the order of hundreds to possibly thousands. ------- Mark Cashman, creator of the Temporal Doorway at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/5623/ Original digital art, writing and UFO research mcashman@ix.netcom.com Search for other documents from or mentioning: mcashman | 76710.234 |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 Re: Unconventional Flying Objects, by Paul Hill From: Don Ledger <dledger@istar.ca> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:18:24 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:06:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Unconventional Flying Objects, by Paul Hill > Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:23:40 -0400 > To: updates@globalserve.net > From: Don Allen <dona@totcon.com> > Subject: Synopsis of Unconventional Flying Objects, by Paul Hill > *** Forwarded from alt.alien.visitors *** > From: Robert Collins <rmcoll@sprintmail.com> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > Subject: JSE Book Review on Paul Hill by Hal P > Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 17:43:15 -0600 > Organization: Peregrine Com > SUBJECT: Synopsis of Unconventional Flying Objects, by Paul Hill, > Hampton Roads Publ. Co., Charlottesville, VA, 1995 > (ISBN 1-57174-027-9) > JSE Review by H. E. Puthoff, Ph.D., Institute for Advanced Studies > at Austin, Austin, TX 78759 > To the degree that the engineering characteristics of UFOs > can be estimated by empirical observation, in my opinion the above- > referenced, recently-published book by Paul Hill provides the most > reliable, concise summary of engineering-type data available. [1] > The data were compiled over decades of research by a Chief > Scientist-Manager at NASA's Langley Research Center [2] who acted > as an informal clearinghouse for UFO-related data. The strength > of the compilation lies in its thoughtful separation of wheat from > chaff, and the analysis of the former into coherent patterns, > including detailed calculations. Perhaps surprising to the > casually interested, under careful examination the observations, > rather than defying the laws of physics as naive interpretation > might suggest, instead appear to be solidly commensurate with > them, as the following discussion shows. Hello List members, I want to thank Don Allen for forwarding a posting by Robert Collins of H.E.Puthoff's (Ph.D.) synopsis of "Uncoventional Flying Objects" by Paul R. Hill. As I have mentioned in earlier postings to this list, I believe that Mr. Hill has done some extremely serious work in this field and come to grips with some of the most puzzling aspects of the UFO phenomena. In doing so he has helped to de-mystify some of the actions of these craft and offer sound arguments for their operation. I am not a scientist, however Mr.Puthoff 'is' a scientist at The Institute for Advanced Studies, in Austin Texas. To me Hill's studies are the nuts and bolts of this field and deserve serious attention by those interested in this field. But don't take my word for it, read the synopsis by Dr.Puthoff. Regards, Don Ledger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 Re: Wales - 'Flying Triangle From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:37:14 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:34:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Wales - 'Flying Triangle >Date: 25 May 97 16:35:10 EDT >From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Wales - 'Flying Triangle' >>From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 04:49:13 +0200 >>Subject: 'Wales Flying Triangle Update' >Stig forwarded; >>The phenomenon is popularly known as The Flying >>Triangle - a type of UFO which has been sighted elsewhere in Wales as >>well as many countries throughout the world since the early 1980s. >>It seems probable that they are instructed to stay well clear of these >>craft, possibly due to the electro-magnetic discharges. >This would not tie in with a craft that was seen heading for the >North Sea testing grounds escorted by two Tornado jets. However, >there appears to be more than one, etc. That is the British Aerospace HALO (HALO=Hawk Low Observability, the HALO design is derived from the Hawk trainer jet). This is also a triangular shape, because of the aerodynamic properties of a triangle. >>Perhaps such obstructionism is part of the "deal"? >It's more indicitive of the lax budgeting for the related >departments. >>the East Midlands have seen a large number of them >And in the early Eighties, too. >>and the Belgian sightings >>from the early 1990s involved thousands of witnesses. >They did? I was under the impression that the black triangles >were reported by a couple of gendarmarie? It's beginning to dawn on me that most American researchers are not very familiar with the Belgian case of 1989/1990. The FTs were reported by thousands of witnesses, civilian, military and gendarmerie. There are 25 videotapes. In the night of March 30/31 2 RBAF F16s intercepted the object and the primary aircraft made several radar locks. At one point the FT accelerated with 40 Gs, while at other moments it virtually hovered. The object played cat-and-mouse with the F16s, at one moment escaping from the radar lock only to come back and fly directly into the range of the F16 radar, followed by another 'esacpe'. While accelerating to a speed beyond the speed of sound, there was no sonic boom, although there were occasions when this happened just above ground level. The conclusion that the object was a mystery and an unknown was reached by the Royal Belgian Air Force, by the Universities of Brussels and Leuven and by Professor Jean Petit of the French Centre National de Recherche Scientifique. >But not those on the 'plane' itself. I believe that some of >the best engineering we have can resist 22Gs along the centreline, >but the SOBEPS 'thingies' were reported at 45Gs on the z-axis. I know of the 40G acceleration, but have never heard of 45Gs on the z-axis of the thingies. Where did you get this? __________________________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Leiden, The Netherlands \___________________________________________________/ Search for other documents from or mentioning: hvdp | 76710.234 |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 Availability of Jim Marrs CNNI interview in USA From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:58:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:29:03 -0400 Subject: Availability of Jim Marrs CNNI interview in USA Subject: Re: Q&A in USA Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:52:39 -0400 From: CNNI@turner.com To: galevy@pipeline.com Hi Gary: Thanks for contacting us. Unfortunately, CNN-International doesn't broadcast much in the United States -- at least not yet. Though, we do have the rest of the world watching! The program on aliens will re-air at 8:30 p.m. eastern time -- and some cable operators in the New York area do carry it. My suggestion? Contact your cable operator to see if CNN-I is carried. I do not think this particular program will re-air on CNN or Headlines. Occassionally, Q&A is re-aired "domestically" but I do not think this will be one of the programs. Thanks for contacting us. Lisa, Producer of Q&A with Riz Khan (ps: for what it is worth, you can purchase the program once it airs by contacting Broadcast Monitors in London -- ask the operator for the phone number. A small charge -- and nothing paid to my show. It is an independent operation.) ________________________ Reply Separator_________________ Subject: Q&A in USA Author: galevy@pipeline.com at Internet Date: 5/26/97 4:53 AM I would like to know when the Q&A interview with Jim Marrs will be on CNN in the United States. At home in New York I only get CNN and Headline News not CNN International. Will this interview be scheduled on one of these networks? Thanks Gary
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 UFOs & LoFlyte From: Don Allen <dona@totcon.com> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 12:33:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:32:31 -0400 Subject: UFOs & LoFlyte ** Fwd from alt.alien.visitors ** ------------------------------------- From: jeff.baure@wanadoo.fr (jeff Baure) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: ufo & LoFlyte... Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 20:23:49 GMT At the 13th of august 96, the begian TV news (RTL-TVI & RTBF) announced : "Wa have finally an explanation for our UFO's Wave in 1990!".Indeed, the Sunday Times published an article (11 AUG 96) about a new secret US plane (not that secret!) : the waverider LoFlyte. The journalist wrote that the NASA had unveiled it the week before in a press release.This plane is triangular shaped, VTOL (Vertical Take Off & Landing), reaches Mach 5 or 6, uses stealth technology and a neural network based autopilot... Nobody tried to verify, corroborate or study this information... Not even the SOBEPS (official Belgian society for the study of space phenomenon)... T.Wathelet (head of the UFOCOM) ,amazed by such an apathy, decided to evaluate the facts and take the informations by himself. He wrote to Accurate Automation Corporation in Chattanooga, Tennessee, USA to ask what they think about the paper in the Sunday Times.The answer came few days later : ---------------------------------------- October 25, 1996 Mr. Wathelet, Thank you for the interest in Accurate Automation Corporation's LoFlyte program. As you aware, The Sunday Times of London reported that "A prototype model (of LoFLYTE) was unveiled last week and has led to speculation that a secret full-size version may already have been built and be responsible for countless UFO sightings." I have since learned from you and other sources on the Internet that this story was subsequently aired on belgian television as an explanation for several UFO sightings over Belgium since 1990. LoFLYTE has never been outside of the United Staes of America. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions. Sincerly, Topher Kersting, marketing coordinator. (end of the letter) ------------------------------------ It was an official letter from AAC, the prime contractor of the LoFLYTE program ! Few days before, He received an e-mail from Mr. Kersting where this latter said that the first test-flight of the full-size version would occur within a month (november or december 96). More recently, the Belgian defense secretary officially closed ( in a plenary session at the House) the enquiry about these unprecedented events in Belgium: he claimed that, on no account, these were related to multiple UFO intrusions but: 1) originated in repeated air space violations by a US prototype, the LoFlyte !! 2) the unusual patterns and dynamic of the two F16(*) onboard radar tracking was caused by meteorological plasmoids ! ! No reaction of the US by means of the embassy in Belgium is to be reported by now. (*) two F16 scambled to try to intercept the intruders...When a stabilized lock-on was to be achieved (on several occasions), the followed object initiated severe escaping manoeuvers inducing redhibitory track losses. to know more about this obvious official cover up: http://www.finart.be/UfocomHq/menu.html (french version) (the more complete) http://www.finart.be/UfocomHq/english/indexen.html (english version) (currently in construction...)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 Re: Kent Jeffrey, A 'Debunker'? From: lists@the-den.clara.net [Nick Humphries] Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:14:34 GMT Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:56:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Kent Jeffrey, A 'Debunker'? >From: EdKomarek@aol.com >Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:40:18 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Kent Jeffrey, A Debunker? (Na, it couldn't be) >Could it be that Jeffery is another debunker painting himself as a ligitimate >UFO researcher only to surface as a Roswell debunker right at the time of >Roswell's 50th anniversary. The timing could not be better for the maximum >negative impact. Could he have joined and involved himself in the Roswell >Initiative in order to distroy that initiative when the peak of publicity was >on Roswell? Na, it couldn't be! I'm sorry, I cannot put this off any longer - face facts Ed, people can, do and are allowed to change their minds of their own accord! This is one thing which really annoys me, especially with ORTK (an organisation which is a vocal minority, might I remind you). When people change their tune, the extremists cry "CONSPIRACY!" - it reminds me of a child sticking his lower lip out and stamping his foot when it doesn't get its own way anymore. It is an attitude which is unhelpful to ufology and holds the subject back. I wish people would realise that skepticism is a healthy thing to have in a debate and instead of throwing stones at it, they should listen, digest and criticize constructively. Nick Humphries, nickh@the-den.clara.net, at your service If the Truth is Out There, what's In Here? *** NOTICE NEW E-MAIL - YOU SPAM, YOU DIE! *** Search for other documents from or mentioning: lists | edkomarek |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 26 Re: Secrecy and general attacks From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:37:18 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:38:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Secrecy and general attacks >Date: 25 May 97 16:35:03 EDT >From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Secrecy and general attacks >>Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 20:14:14 +0200 (MET DST) >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Debunker Containment Strategy? James Diss scribbled: >Henny penned; >>I have been reading James Diss' postings, and especially his >>exchange with Gary Alevy, with tremendous disdain. Diss is treating >>other contributors on this list without any respect, writes >>without any coherence, claims he knows things without ever >>proving that and seems uninformed about UFOs and related matters >>to begin with. >You're entitled to that opinion, Henny, but to claim that >I'm incoherent is stretching the point a little, as the only >complaint I've received to date is from yourself. OK, someone has to start. Respect >is earned, Why not treat everybody with respect to begin with. >as I'm finding out from the little that I've >received during this larger exchange, and no-one seems to >worry about claims being proved in this field anyway. What nonsense. >To whit, we address the first point; >>> It is: 'Gary wrote', mister Dish, er... Diss. << >Not necessarily, depending on how I'm feeling. My software >requires a tad more editing than Eudora Pro. By the way, >that one got old in Primary school. There are more creative >ones to try, and I'm endlessly amused by such things. >>> Incoherent gibberish. << >OK, I'll paraphrase it for you. If anyone wants to comment >on readability, I'd be pleased to learn a better way of >constructing sentances so everyone on the list can understand >them. >'Intentional deception', as inferred by Gary's message, is >called 'disinformation'. 'Ignorance' is called 'misinformation'. >A good dictionary has these definitions. >Are you with me so far? Providing 'disinformation' is one of the ways of intentionally deceiving people. If that is what you mean, I am with you. >Now, Gary used both phrases in his reply to me, indicating either >'disinformation' or 'misinformation' on my part. I just wanted a >direct opinion as to which I was using, because I would have >explained, if challenged directly on that point, that I _don't_ >have evidence that can confirm that point, and the only example >I was given was faulty. As far as I can see, it's misinformation. >I expected a slightly more gentle reply, to be honest. I'm quite >sensitive to such things and bruise easily. You throw a ball, it bounces back. >>> Highschool playground arrogance. << >Just asking for clarification of a claim that I doubted could be >backed up. Would it help if I used the phrase 'Double dog dare'? >Assuming that you can provide a list of ten, why say that? Because it stretches credulity that you cannot think of a few yourself. What >possible information could be conveyed by a general charge that >I'm presumptive? Henny, it would save a lot of time and bandwidth >if you just cut to the chase and called me an asshole. Maybe I'll do that privately before you enable your email filter. >So you've confirmed my point that watertight classified >projects don't exist? Again you miss the point. The leaks of government involvement into UFOs simply make it more probable that they indeed are involved. >>You apparently never heard of the MJ 12 Training Manual. >Yes, but I don't assume it's _real_. Geez, somehow I expected this. >I'd be interested in >some of the huge mountains of administrative red-tape that >would follow such a department rather than a rather suspect >'training manual' turning up. A serious student such as >yourself understands that limited circulation documents are >numbered... >I take it you _don't_ find it suspicious that the documents >that _do_ turn up tend to be pretty weighty things that would >demand, by their very nature, high security? It falls into >the bracket I call 'convienient'. >As anyone in business knows, even the smallest operation >generates mountains of paperwork, and an active UFO suppression >department would be no exception. Just recently the NSA declassified 3,000 documents about the Colossus computer that was used in WWII to break German codes. 3,000!!! Where is all the red tape concerning Colossus? The answer is there isn't. Very few people in Bletchley Park, UK, where Colossus was used, knew what the machine was. The only documents that could identify the machine and its codes were top secret from WWII until 1997. And that was just NSA material. The British secret documents were destroyed piece by piece just after WWII. For over 50 years only witness testimony was available. There is your parallel from a recent article in the New Scientist that I just to happened to read this week. >I'd like to direct your attention to Gersten's claims* of >1981 that 3000 released FOIA documents provide 'overwhelming >proof that UFO's exist'. >3000 documents? 1000 per decade? Wow. So where is it? Ask Gersten. >16 years, so far, and we've managed to establish that the AF >admitted that there were things flying about. But there is >a twist; they refused to release some documents under national >security grounds. >192 of them. Six sheets a year from all interested parties? >The Blue book 'unknowns' (and I'm not referring to the >misclassifications) out number them by a factor of a tad >over 3. They picked and chose? >Tell me if any of that's incoherent. If you stop using the word 'tad'- I don't have a clue - perhaps you would be more coherent. As to the documents, the big question is whether the NSA and CIA people who were ordered by the judge to dig up their files knew where to look for more MJ 12 material. Secrecy is compartmentalized. >>DI 61 means: >>Diss' postings on UFO Updates are Devoid of Information whether you >>read them once or 61 times. >Suprising that such students of Government secrecy history would >not look back at the interesting intelligence structure set up by >Elizabeth I, including DI61 (Defence Intelligence section 61, >in longhand). Why don't you go back to the Roman Empire to base your claims. Readers are just as much uninformed about Queen Cleopatra's intrigues with Mark Antony as they are about Elizabeth I who ruled England in the 17th Century. That's what I meant with DI meaning 'Devoid of Information'. > However, I found that last crack vaguely amusing >in a general comedy posting. Keep it up, Henny! I will. >Love'n'kisses, Hugs. __________________________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Leiden, The Netherlands \___________________________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 27 Archive ParaNet Files From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:48:34 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:08:41 -0400 Subject: Archive ParaNet Files There's an extensive, indexed archive of material posted to ParaNet, available by ftp at: ftp://grind.isca.uiowa.edu/info/paranet/infopara/ Included therein is the following, from Jim Speiser From: Jim.Speiser@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Speiser) Subject: Bentwaters Update Date: 12 Aug 91 05:52:00 GMT [...] Another witness, John Burroughs, will also be featured. Burroughs lay low for many years after the sighting, but came forward to me back in 1989. He has since spoken to several researchers, and together we are spearheading an effort to re-focus public attention to the case, which I feel ranks up with Roswell as one of our best contenders. There are some very compelling suggestions of high-level cover-up; there is at the very least a palpable shyness on the part of both governments (US and UK) to be forthright about information pertaining to the case. Burroughs has agreed to be interviewed for an exclusive ParaNet release, and is seeking the help of any reputable UFO group to bring this case to the attention of the public and ideally, the Congress. [...] Jim Speiser From: Jim.Speiser@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Speiser) Subject: Re: Bentwaters Date: 27 Sep 91 21:02:00 GMT Pretty soon I should be able to upload a summary of Burroughs' signed statement. I'll let you and the rest of the network know when that's possible. Jim [End] Unfortunately, the archive material doesn't extend much later and although Jim believes he did post that statement, it seems he no longer has a copy. If anyone does, I would be grateful if they could let me know. James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 27 Re: Wales - 'Flying Triangle' From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> Date: 26 May 97 21:13:47 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:10:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Wales - 'Flying Triangle' >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >Subject: re: UFO UpDate: Wales - 'Flying Triangle' >Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:53:31 -0700 Mark wrote; >Actually, missile systems resist much higher Gs, on the order of >hundreds to possibly thousands. Yeah, my FUBAR. Thanks Mark. Isn't there a maximum lateral G that can be applied to a missile in flight, and isn't this highly dependant on planform? I'm concentrating slightly on triangular planform at the moment while dealing with nuts and bolts stuff, and some of the sightings are downright scary. One witness describes a delta planform aircraft that flies normally, then goes into a flat spin and rises out of sight. It just ain't normal. One of the things that does seem to tie up is this idea of a BAe UAV some of the more corelative sightings seem to lead back to Lytham. You know anything about the AGM-129D at all? James A Diss ---------------------- HEALTH WARNING: Care Should Be Taken When Lifting This Product, Since Its Mass, and Thus Its Weight, Is Dependent on Its Velocity Relative to the User. --------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 27 UFO UpDate:UFOSearch #3 - Frank Scully & "Behind The Flying From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:33:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:10:06 -0400 Subject: UFO UpDate:UFOSearch #3 - Frank Scully & "Behind The Flying This is the third of the series of essays by UFOSearch that I am posting to UFOUpDates. Several of these essays were posted in the past in the alt.paranet.ufo USENET newsgroup. There are approximately 25 essays in all. I am posting these with the permission of the author. Unfortunately the author is not presently available on the Internet. However, if you would like to correspond with the author I have arranged a temporary internet email address that I will use for forwarding the correspondence to him. This is not a permanent email address. The address is: ufosearch@pipeline.com ----------------------------- Frank Scully & "Behind The Flying Saucers" Historical Document 003 UFOSearch Columbia, Missouri 65203 Frank Scully was a very interesting newspaper man, a member of an older school of journalism, reviled now, who came up the hard way during the Depression. Scully's abilities at last allowed him access to the upper reaches of U.S. society and gave him a true insider's viewpoint, one that "normal" reporters never acquired. The following paragraphs are from the Preface of Scully's book Behind The Flying Saucers, published 45 years ago. As you can see, they seem right up to the minute. This is because the world we are living in today was created in the immediate Post World War II years -- and a lot of people did not like it. Scully was one of these people. Behind The Flying Saucers contains a lot of information besides the story of "Dr. Gee" and the crashed disk. Included is a very good history of the first 42 months of the Age Of Arnold and a glimpse of the mindset of the country as the McCarthy era dawned. All in all, it is well worth looking up. You will see that he, too, had thought hard about the question of PROOF and the UFO. >From The Preface Of "Behind The Flying Saucers:" "Between the people and government today lies a double standard of morality. Anything remotely scientific has become by government definition a matter of military security first; hence of secrecy, something which does not breed security but fear. If we see anything unusual, even in the skies, we the people must either freeze our lips, like a Russian peasant at the sight of a commissar, or give our names, addresses, business connections, and testimony to be screened and filtered by anonymous intelligence officers. "Feared and respected by many people, these anonymous creatures can deny what we say, ridicule what we say, and sometimes (and in an increasing number of countries) jail us for what we say--especially if our timing does not match to the second their intended official pronouncements on the subject. "The only way for a free people to fight such encroachments on free inquiry is to say in advance, "What I am telling you will be denied," or "This is true but those who say so now will be branded as dreamers, and if they persist, as liars. "This may seem a dreadful way to treat our own flesh and blood, our commissioned sons who have been trained for combat but are assigned in peacetime to espionage and counterespionage. But since our sons in uniform do not report to us, the people, but to Central Intelligence (which as far as we can make out reports to nobody and is answerable to nobody), how otherwise can we get our current findings to our friends? "Scientists believe they have suffered more than any other group from the postwar loyalty hysteria but writers cannot be far behind them. The "thread of intolerance" which runs through our history has now become as thick as a noose to hang us. "Propaganda has made true-and-false practically obsolete in our language. If a spokesman has served time in intelligence, it may be fairly said, the truth is no longer in him. "Scientists do not want to go to war with the Army over the issue. They have to get essential materials for research, and certain branches of the Department of Defense might find it difficult to find such essential materials for scientists who will not cooperate. "Is it any wonder then that I advise my readers to treat any official statement as no more than old newspapers blowing in the wind. In fact, if such faceless men should say that the objects are (a) newspapers or (b) not newspapers but fragments of flying saucers, they are not to be believed either way. Not until we, the people, we who have names, addresses and the courage of our convictions, not until we say there are such things as flying saucers, is it authentic." ** To which we at UFOSearch can only say, "Amen."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 27 Re: Mogul Balloons & Foil-like Material From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:06:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:06:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Mogul Balloons & Foil-like Material Regarding... >Date: 21 May 97 08:43:29 EDT >From: BOB SHELL <76750.2717@CompuServe.COM> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Mogul Balloons & Foil-like Material Bob Shell wrote: >You are missing an important point. Ordinary Mylar film would not >be described as looking like metal foil, particularly lead foil. Bob, It's an elementary point I was aware of. I wrote, "It's now a common material (although a more advanced composition) in balloons and exhibits the characteristics we would be looking for". This wasn't suggesting it had the same characteristics in 1947 as it does now. The note in brackets was important. Before we considered what properties it may have had, I added, "The question was when did it become available in film form, i.e., Mylar". If Mylar wasn't introduced until 1952, then there are no further questions regarding it's possible use and composition in 1947. The information from DuPont is not necessarily definitive. "Mylar" is only one brand name and there may have been rival products available before 1952. There was, for example, ICI's version of the synthetic film, called "Melinex". I also asked ICI when this was first available, but haven't heard from them. In 1933, ICI produced the first polythene, also known as polyethylene. They may therefore have had quite a head start in producing poly(ethylene terephthalate), which is effectively "Melinex", or "Mylar". However, the first flight of a large, single-cell polyethylene balloon apparently took place on 25 September, 1947 and this was a "Project Skyhook" balloon. There's some confusion about whether the foil-like material could have come from the radar targets, as cited by Professor Moore in the USAF Report, or from the balloons themselves. Bessie Brazel Schreiber in particular describes debris which "looked like pieces of a large balloon which had burst" and states, "Most of it was a kind of double-sided material, foil-like on one side and rubber-like on the other. Both sides were grayish silver in color, the foil more silvery than the rubber. Sticks, like kite sticks, were attached to some of the pieces with a whitish tape. The tape was about two or three inches wide and had flowerlike designs on it". Although this foil-rubber material sounds like it might be material from a balloon, the balloon trains consisted of neoprene and Bessie's description doesn't seem to be consistent with that. A more direct approach would be to put some questions to Prof. Moore. It should be possible to resolve these apparent anomalies and if anyone on the list has an address for him, I wouldn't be adverse to asking if he would help clear up these points. James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 27 Crop Circle Connector Mailing List #21 From: Markk Fussell <mjfussell@marque.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:16:50 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:08:07 -0400 Subject: Crop Circle Connector Mailing List #21 Welcome to the Crop Circle Connector Mailing List #21 Members = 1412 What's New on The Crop Circle Connector Monday 26th May 1997. ***************************************** Dutch Crop Circles of 1997. Read these fascinating reports on the first crop circles to appear in Holland. ***************************************** Updated report on the Strethall formation in Essex. Ilyes Aerial analysis of the formation. (See Crop Circles 1997) Freddy Silva's new diagram of the formation also included on existing report. ***************************************** Additional photographs of the "Tree of Life" formation on Lucy Pringles Homepage. (See Homepages Link) ***************************************** SC Magazine May 1997, issue 64 OUT NOW! Earth Energy & Geology, plus the 1997 Crop Circle Season starts in earnest! ***************************************** Conferences *********** Future Visions Weekend near Philadeuphia 13-14th of June 1997 A slide show lecture on the history of the Crop Circles and American prophecy. ---------------------------------------- Future Visions Weekend in London 12-13th of July 1997 Slide show lecture by Dr Chet Snow ***************************************** All the best Mark and Stuart -- .888. Mark fussell mailto:mjfussell@marque.demon.co.uk _db__8',`8__db_ The Crop Circle Connector Web Site at: qp 8.`.8 qp http://www.marque.demon.co.uk/connector/connector.html `888' Subscribe news:alt.paranormal.crop-circles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 27 Q & A in USA - not! From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:17:31 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:13:15 -0400 Subject: Q & A in USA - not! I received this as a private email and thought I would pass it on to the list for others who might be interested. I don't know what the tape from the monitoring service would cost. Is there anyone on the list that does receive CNN International and would be willing to tape the program in NTSC format on a VHS tape, please email me. Thanks. To quote a friend of mine on this, "Kinda makes you wonder, doesn't it, that Marrs' book is suitable for an overseas-directed show but not seen as worthwhile to run here at home. Strange!" I guess if you would like to see it in the USA one could email Lisa the producer of Q&A at CNNI@turner.com, I doubt that this act would automatically enroll you as a card-carrying member of the "UFO militia", I'd hate to have to take a trip overseas to see this program although I know that my wife, a peripatic traveller, would just love an excuse for another trip. Gary Subject: Re: Q&A in USA Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:52:39 -0400 From: CNNI@turner.com To: galevy@pipeline.com Hi Gary: Thanks for contacting us. Unfortunately, CNN-International doesn't broadcast much in the United States -- at least not yet. Though, we do have the rest of the world watching! The program on aliens will re-air at 8:30 p.m. eastern time -- and some cable operators in the New York area do carry it. My suggestion? Contact your cable operator to see if CNN-I is carried. I do not think this particular program will re-air on CNN or Headlines. Occassionally, Q&A is re-aired "domestically" but I do not think this will be one of the programs. Thanks for contacting us. Lisa, Producer of Q&A with Riz Khan (ps: for what it is worth, you can purchase the program once it airs by contacting Broadcast Monitors in London -- ask the operator for the phone number. A small charge -- and nothing paid to my show. It is an independent operation.)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 27 Re: Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's Ufologists Are From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:05:16 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:22:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's Ufologists Are > Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 15:22:23 -0500 (CDT) > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's Ufologists Are > Real Patriots > >From: EdKomarek@aol.com > >Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:24:06 -0400 (EDT) > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's Ufologists Are Real Patriots. < snip > > The fact of the matter is that so-called ufologists have done as much to > discredit the Roswell case as anyone purportedly associated with any > treasonous black projects or other government propaganda activities. Might I > point out that it was black projects, Mahnattan included, that preserved the > Constitution and kept our collective behinds free of facism and communism? > Which would you rather have? I believe you are being deceptive here. Please name the black projects, Manhattan project excluded, that "preserved the Consititution and kept our collective..." What basis do you have for calling the Manhattan project a "black project"? > And for what it's worth, do you call an Air Force report on Roswell that > sells for $52 propaganda? If they had handed out free copies on street > corners, I could maybe see it. What a misuse of the language, propaganda is not defined by whether or not it is given away or purchased. < snip > < insults to Ed Komarek deleted > > All you do is pronounce and denounce from afar. A typical example of which > is the post you repeated in the ORTK Bulletin #27 about MUFON members > allegedly terrorizing some poor hapless B&B owners in the Texas Hill > Country. Did you spend five minutes on a telephone trying to find out > whether the story had any validity or not before posting it on the Web? The > answer is that, no, you did not. If you learn that the story was composed > entirely of composted cow patties would you admit as much and apologize for > same in your Bulletin? I hope I'm wrong, but from what I've seen from your > keyboard and modem thus far, I seriously doubt it. Very interesting approach here. You attack Ed, pose a rhetorical question and then answer it yourself. You imply that you know more about the alleged incident than Ed but contribute absolutely NO information about it yourself. Neat tactic! > So who's propagandizing who, Mr. Ed? If you've got facts and names, use > them. Yes Dennis why don't you apply a higher standard to yourself and your post? Instead what I see is insult, attack, imply you know something and yet provide no information about the incident yourself. Please if you have information about the incident you were discussing post it to UFO UpDates putting it in the public record or at least make it clear that your intention was not to add any information about the alleged B&B incident but were just engaging in a bit of propagandizing yourself. > If you don't, then please have the personal dignity to stop using the > Web to distribute unfounded rumors and allegations, along with your personal > political philosophy. Denis, Ever hear of mutual deterrence? > If I'd wanted to join the UFO militia, I would've done > so long ago. Does the fact that I haven't make me a traitor? Certainly not. > Dennis Gary
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 27 Fast Walker From: Ian Read <i.read@netcom.co.uk> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:04:13 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:18:16 -0400 Subject: Fast Walker I have recently read the excellent book "Out There" by Howard Blum. I was very interested in the Fast Walker case. I have since seen a segment of a UFO documentary on this case. If anyone else has any information or text files on this most interesting case could they please post them to me or this list (I am sure others share my interest). Thanks in advance. ________ /___ ___\ \\__\/__// \ .. / \ / Ian Read - i.read@netcom.co.uk \ / \/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 27 Re: Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's Ufologists are From: HONEYBE100@aol.com (Linda Cortile) Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:17:34 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:17:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's Ufologists are >From: EdKomarek@aol.com >Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:24:06 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's Ufoogists are Real Patriots Ed, you wrote: >George Filer, MUFON's eastern regional director recently just > retruned from testifying before staff members of Congress and > the current administration in Washington, D.C. , " George is a >retired Air Force major." >"Astronaut Edgar Mitchell also participated in the talks. It was > George Filer's honor to have a private one-on-one twenty minute > talk with the famous moon-walker. Edgar told him that those > in the UFO camp thatare investigating and pushing for more > UFO research are the real patriots in this country. So stand >tall when you say you are a Ufologist." My, my, my...Ed. When I read your post regarding George Filer as testifing before the staff members of congress...I wanted to vomit. Especially when I read that George had a one-on-one talk with poor Edgar. Either poor Mitchell isn't aware of who the real partroits are, or he's lost in outer space some where. Ironically, George Filer is the New Jersey State Director for MUFON. His "Ufologists" are mainly made up of debunkers and disinformants. I know, because I have had first hand experience with these "good ole' guys" relating to my case. Although George Filer wasn't N.J. State Director at that time, he was part of this this group who has harrassed my children, husband and me. Now, why would Ufologists do that? Always remember, that when a truth is told, it stirs up disputes. The truth can be frightening to those who don't want the truth to come out. You can be sure that George didn't speak on behalf of the real partiots of Ufology. Those of you who were not invited to attend these supposed congressional hearings are the real patriots. If George Filer is an example of those who have been speaking before congress, I don't believe that the real patriots would want to be a part of it. In my opinion, its all an expensive sham to get us off their backs in the midst of the 50th anniversary of Ufology. As far as I'm concerned, and speaking like a true American, Conservative-Republican, "they're all on a roller-coaster-ride by themselves." By the way, Ed, although I don't know you, you sound like you know your stuff. If I were you, I wouldn't let anyone's crude, gramatical criticisms bother me. Sounds like you're getting too close to the truth and annoying the heck out of someone. <G> Ed...thumbs up! Let em rip!!!!! Regards, Linda Cortile
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 27 UFOSearch # 4 - Downed Discs and Donald Keyhoe From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 01:38:18 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:15:29 -0400 Subject: UFOSearch # 4 - Downed Discs and Donald Keyhoe This is the fourth of the series of essays by UFOSearch that I am posting to UFOUpDates. Several of these essays were posted in the past in the alt.paranet.ufo USENET newsgroup. There are approximately 25 essays in all. I am posting these with the permission of the author. Unfortunately the author is not presently available on the Internet. However, if you would like to correspond with the author I have arranged a temporary internet email address that I will use for forwarding the correspondence to him. This is not a permanent email address. The address is: ufosearch@pipeline.com I hope you find these essays as interesting and thought provoking as I did. Commentary: Did Frank Scully's Author's Preface seem appropriate to the Memorial (Decoration) Day holiday? Well the search for the smoking disc isn't an easy one... Some say that Frank Scully did a crash and burn when he attempted to investigate the topic; however, I found it of no little interest that in his preface Scully stated that he anticipated there would be an attempt to discredit his account. It is also interesting to note that it was William L. (Bill) Moore who "in the early1980s conducted an exhaustive investigation of the (Scully) hoax, uncovering a great deal of additional information [ref. Jerome Clark, UFO Encyclopedia Vol. 2, pp 301]. (Incidentally I should add for those to young to know that Bill Moore was later revealed to be an AFOSI informant and disinformation agent against Paul Bennewitz; intelligence workers have a somewhat contemptuous term for the people that they use this way - "useful idiots"). It is also surprising to me that Clark dismisses Scully's statement in a subsequent book [In Armour Bright: Cavalier Adventures of My Short Life Out of Bed, 1963] that the Dr. Gee in Behind The Flying Saucers was a "composite of eight men who had give me pieces of the story". Clark states that "there is no reason to believe his (Scully's) protestation that Dr. Gee was a composite of "eight men..." Yet Clark states he feels that Scully was "the victim, not perpetrator of the hoax." Unfortunately, Clark gives does not elaborate on the basis for his disbelief of Scully's claim of multiple scientist sources. With Moore being cited in Clark's UFO encyclopedia as the exhaustive investigator of Scully, one wonders what oil bearing properties would be of interest to Clark. Here a disc, there a disc... Donald Keyhoe also went on the elusive disc hunt and had some interesting things to say about the search of our goverment conducted for them as our essayist recounts below. But first a brief aside on debunkery. If you have had a chance to read both of the readings I suggested on Donald Keyhoe you'll have a pretty good idea of what it is and how it is practiced today. Peter Brooksmith describes Donald Keyhoe as a "hack writer" and conveniently omits biographical information on Keyhoe or mention of facts such as Keyhoe's being cleared by the Air Force for information release before the curtain came down so to speak. With that I'll leave it to UFOSearch to point the way. Gary Alevy onto essay #4... ____________________________________________________________ Downed Discs And Donald Keyhoe Major Donald Keyhoe's Last Book -- 1973; Aliens From Space Val Germann Columbia, Missouri Biographical Information On Donald Keyhoe: Annapolis Graduate, 1920; Marine Corps pilot in the 1920s; Information Chief of CAA in the 1920s; Was an aide to Lindberg in the 1920s; Writer during 1930s, authored the 1940 book M-Day about the war to come; He was called back to active duty in 1943 and served as a naval flight training officer; Published first widely read article on UFOs in December, 1949; Became director of NICAP, the most influential UFO group from the mid-1950s to the 1970s. His books are: (1950) UFOs Are Real (1953) Flying Saucers From Outer Space (1955) The Flying Saucer Conspiracy (1960) Flying Saucers, Top Secret (1973) Aliens From Space Much of the information in this book comes from a report made (supposedly) for the Air Force Academy. A photocopy of this document was leaked to Keyhoe in the late 1960s. The report said that even as the Air Force was enlisting the Condon Committee to put UFOs to sleep forever they were attempting to intercept and bring down "Flying Saucers" under secret orders from the Aerospace Defense Command. Keyhoe says, "High officials, caught in a serious dilemma, are convinced that it is best to delay admitting that UFOs are real." Keyhoe had leaks from Grudge 1 (36 military UFO cases); Grudge 4 (WW II and Korea cases) and from Grudge 9 (military sightings of objects with windows). He found that the Twining Letter was genuine and had led to the 1949 Project Sign. He claimed that a secret conclusion was reached in the late 1940s: "UFOs are spacecraft from a more advanced world engaged in an extensive survey of our world." Keyhoe also tells of the split within the military in 1948 as one group thought that war was imminent and wanted to prepare the public while another group proposed secrecy. The secrecy group (CIA?) won and cracked down in 1949, 1953 and 1969. The last crackdown was in response to the bizarre upsurge in "contactee" reports of abduction, rape and murder. These began publicly with the Hill case in 1966 and accelerated though the late 1960s. Keyhoe is trying to calm these fears while still keeping alive the "hardware" end of things. He says that the UFO is probabaly not any more dangerous than the H-Bomb. Thanks a lot, Don. Keyhoe says there has been no communication with those who fly the UFOs. He denounces this, saying that if there had been communication we would not now be worrying about surveillance. But there is this problem of the documented harm done by "aliens" to ordinary people. That is the real problem here, as Keyhoe undoubtedly knew. It was part of his job to keep the lid on that "real" problem. Keyhoe was, in part, a disinformation agent. Now begins's my partial summary of Aliens From Space. p.22 The Walesville Incident discussed. An Air Force F-94 crashed into a village and killed four people. This is shown to revolve around "strange heat" and "blacking out" connected to a UFO sighting. The pilot was vectored in toward a Flying Disc and got a visual sighting. Then he felt the heat and blacked out. The next thing he knew he was out of the plane in his ejection seat. p.24 Keyhoe discusses a RAND DOCUMENT that confirms the reality of UFOs, the damage to human beings as well as electrical power effects. It calls for a central reporting service and cooperation from the press. p.26 The Flynn burning case from Florida discussed. No way this is a hoax, says Kehyoe. p.29 "Missing Time" account from the Washington, D.C. area. p.30 Similiar report from Australia checks out. p.30 Air Force has never communicated with UFOs. "Oh, some pilot may have blinked his lights or tried a radio contact," says Al Chop, "But there's no official plan for communication." This is one area of speculation that Keyhoe is hell bent on shutting off. That's handled elsewhere! p.32 Keyhoe justifies the as a matter of national security, saying that the saucer technology is worth all the risks and secrecy if it can be attained. If someone else should get it, the Russians, we presume, well, that would be a disaster. The Cold War Rationale is his bible. p.31 Statement from William Lear about UFOs and gravity. p.33 On Air Force interception attempts: "But if the machine remained intact, the AF would have its long-sought opportunity to learn the UFO's technical secrets. The AF would move it to a safe hiding place. Then top scientists and engineers--with or without aid by a crew--would analyze the power system, the controls and any advanced weapons. Once they had the answers, the Defense Department would rush a program to duplicate the alien machines and also to build superior type missiles using UFO-type propulsion. If the United States were the first to build an armed UFO force, no other Earth nation would risk an attack. And if no other country learned the secrets it could mean an indefinite freedom from war. This was the goal." *** This fits in with my theory about what is going on. If we were offered this technology in exchange for something; well? Keyhoe is very insistent in his own way, cutting off certain avenues of investigation and emphasizing others. His primary function as a "disinformation agent" was to steer "Ufology" away from the truly fruitfull ideas and concepts, to keep everyone's eyes looking up for the "vehicles" while the real work was going on down here on the ground--in places like citizens' bedrooms! p.41 1) Extensive surveillance without open hostility must mean that the aliens have some powerful purpose requiring peaceful contacts with humans and gradual adjustments without aggression. 2) The number of UFOs observing our world is not large enough for full-scale attack. Probably most of them are unmanned observation craft which can easily outrun our fighters by high-speed maneuver. 3) We are not entirely defenseless. We have numerous missiles capable of reaching spaceships, even at very high altitude. ** Dominic? Starfish? 4) Aliens have repeatedly tried to avoid harming human beings. Navy incident in 1953 cited as evidence. *** Keyhoe is calming his readers, telling them things are not all that bad. He does not ever take an honest look at what this "UFO" business might mean. His job is to avoid "panic." p.38 April 6, 1948; White Sands; Navy personnel tracked object with theodolites moving at 18,000 mph. Object went into steep climb, gained 100,000 feet in ten seconds. Ship pulled hundreds of "G." p.39 Numbers of top scientists and industrialists accepted UFO reality at about this time. Among them Dr. Hermann Oberth, Grover Loening, Lawerence Bell & Igor Sikorsky. ** Why did they accept this "reality?" p.39 When it was realized that UFOs were real (1949) there were many projects put in hand to try to duplicate their performance. By 1965 there were 46 programs, 33 by the Air Force, 3 by the Navy, 1 by the AEC ((now part of the Department of Energy)) , 2 by NACA ((now called NASA)) and 6 by the NSF. There were 23 other totally secret ones. These were called the "G" programs. p.40 The Air Force attempted to capture a UFO about two years after the "mass sightings" began. (1949) The Air Defense Command was determined to get hold of one and their pilots were to do anything within reason, even "to grab it by the tail." (p. 37) Another pilot said that "we were told to ram one and bail out if we could do it." p.37 Then HQ discovered a report that had been suppressed at MacDill AFB in Florida. Two C-47 pilots saw a huge object like a B-29 fuselage with a row of windows, flying by their plane. It had no wings and for a moment was on a collision course. August 1, 1946. Similiar object seen at the Hague, August 20, 1948. p.40 In 1952 the Air Force for a while ordered its planes to fire on UFOs. This order was rescinded later at some point. p.40 Interception attempts: Redmond, CA, Sept. 24, 1959, where Keyhoe was leaked FAA transcripts of radio conversations. These transcripts were flatly denied as false by the Air Forced. Sequoia-Kings National Park, CA, August 1. 1953. *** The implication here is obvious. . .DID WE GET A FLYING DISC? p.41 Near collisions: August 9 and 10, 1953; Idaho & S.D. p.42 Foreign attempts to get UFO technology: USSR also has interception problems with UFOs outrunning airplanes. Then they tried anti-aircraft and missiles, firing on a UFO on July 24, 1957. p.42 UFO intercepts have been run in England, France, Brazil, Canada, South Africa, Norway, the Netherlands and others. In some countries radio is to be used first--then guns. On January 29, 1962 a Dutch pilot challenged a UFO in his F-86 equipped with 20mm cannon and Sidewinder missiles. The UFO shot away. p.42 In 1954 the Canadians set up a project to lure a UFO to a restricted landing field near an experimental station at Suffield, Alberta. They had failed to intercept or bring down a UFO in spite of "hundreds of chases." Radio and searchlights were to be used to attract the aliens into this special area. Then the lights and the radio supposedly were cancelled and "there was nothing to attract the aliens" into the area. This top secret project was "continued for several years" even though it was a "failure." It was "revealed" in 1967 by Canadian Defence Minister Paul Hellyer. Most strange. **** Why would such a thing be done? Could it be that the Canadians knew someone else had a disc? Could it be that such a program, or one like it in some way, was known to the Canadians? p.43 USAF chases continued into the late 1950s and some AF personell believed the UFOs were immune to rocket and cannon fire. "But the top control group disagreed. In a special evaluation of U.S. and foreign reports they found evidence that the UFOs were not invulnerable. Some had been temporarily crippled, apparently from power or control failures, and few others had been completely destroyed by strange explosions. In one or two cases it appeared that missiles or jet rocket fire could have been the cause." *** Were they COMPLETELY DESTROYED? p.35 By late 1950s the "secrecy group" was under attack for risking pilot's lives. The pilots demanded an end to the pursuits. But at least 5 other countries were trying to find out the secrets of the UFOs. For the security of the country the Air Force had to get information about the UFOs! *** But this is as far as Keyhoe goes. p. 43 Nov. 13, 1957, UFO exploded over the State Hospital at Crownsville, Maryland. Fort Meade sent specialists. p. 43 Also, an explosion of a UFO near Richards Gebaur AFB. Other such events have been reported from New Zealand, France and from England. p. 43 Explosion of UFO over Ontario, Canada, in 1953. The object disintegrated into a shower of brilliant particles. A blue rain fell. Debris tested by the Defense Research Board. p. 44 Keyhoe says an explosion that lit up the sky for "hundreds of miles" at Hartford, Connecticut, may have resulted from an attack on a UFO. A pilot told Keyhoe that he thought "an A-bomb had gone off." Later an insider said that the explosion might have been the result of a air-to-air or ground-to-air missile with a nuclear warhead -- an attack on a UFO! p. 45 Frank Edwards was supposedly told that in 1963 a Navy vessel fired an AA missile at a UFO in the South Atlantic, totally destroying it. Keyhoe was not able to get anything on this, even confidentially. Edwards would not tell him more. p. 45 Keyhoe says, "eventually the AF will capture one of the alien spacecraft." *** Had it already?! p. 45 By 1964 several project heads (of the "G" programs) predicted travel to the planets in days as a result of work being done on these projects. Surprise attacks delivered around the world in 30 minutes or less. "Besides this, any alien hostility could probably be avoided--if they permitted us to build a UFO force." *** The implications are clear. p. 45 By 1966 everyone was reversing themselves, there was no breakthrough on "UFO vehicles." *** Is THIS when the unhappiness occurred at Dulce or wherever? p. 46 December 22, 1962, a landing at Ezaiza International Airport near Buenos Aires. Predawn darkness a UFO sat at the end of runway, blocking it. No one dared approache the intruder and after several minutes it took off slowly and lifted out of sight. p. 47 A UFO landed for a halfhour in Australia; May 24, 1965; near Eton Range, 42 miles from Mackey. Object was solid, metallic, 30 feet across. One witness was going to shoot it but others stopped him. Object stayed on ground for 30 minutes. When it lifted a tripod landing gear was visible for a few seconds. Where it landed there was a ring on the ground three feet thick with an inner diameter of twenty feet. p. 48 "To keep a capture hidden, the AF undoubtedly would try to cordon off the area, as it did when low-flying spacecraft were reported to have landed in Pennsylvania and New Mexico. Aside from this, there is no real plan for dealing with space beings." *** Here it is, the closest Keyhoe dares to come to the "crashed disc" scenarios. But by the middle 1970s people like Leonard Stringfield would be leaking stories about what actually happened in New Mexico and Pennsylvania. How close are we to the full "truth" of what is going on? Probably not very, but not for the reasons the so-called skeptics think! ***
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 28 Art Bell's UFO Sighting 5/26/97 From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 02:24:05 -0400 Subject: Art Bell's UFO Sighting 5/26/97 Those of you who listen in on Art Bell's night time radio talk show will have heard of the daytime sighting he and his wife had yesterday. It was of a bright cylindrical object trailing behind, or near the contrail of, a high-flying AF jet over Nevada. He then received a few calls from others who also had seen it. An interesting aspect is that one caller noted that the UFO executed oscillatory motions, as if suspended from a string, and Art confirmed that he had seen that too, as if it had been on a pendulum. It made me wonder, if he had been able to take a zoom video-camera recording of it doing this, if some later debunker wouldn't just say it was a model UFO dangling from a string! Fortunately for Art, in this case it had to be a high flying object to have been viewed by others at different locations. But it points up how easily a UFO pilot can make his/her craft undergo deceptive motions so as to provide a way out for negative skeptics. Jim Deardorff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 28 Flatland From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:26:28 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:20:55 -0400 Subject: Flatland I thought it might be interesting to forward to the list an observation by a friend at NASA/Huntsville (Marshall Spaceflight Center), who recently speculated on why UFOs are observed to change shape. > Hey Brian, > Don't know why it's taken me so long to think of this, but ufo's > popping from place to place and changing shape could indicate > they are entering our 4-D continuum from some higher-dimensional > 'embedding space.' This would be like the situation in the old > book 'Flatland' where 3-D beings enter, or penetrate, a 2-D world. > For example, when a sphere crosses through a 2-D world, the 2-D > inhabitants see first a point, then a circle which rapidly grows > in size, reaches a maximum, then shrinks to a point and disappears. > A sphere bouncing on the 2-D space would look like a point jumping > from place to place. A brick or other 3-D shape rotating through > the plane would look like a constantly changing shape. A fork > passing through the plane would start as separate points which > would grow to ovals then they'd coalesce into one shape, only to > disappear later. Could the ufo's, or at least some of them, be > penetrations of our 4-D continuum by higher-dimensional things? > Perhaps from the 'hyperspace' in which our universe is embedded? > I dunno...
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 28 Re: Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:17:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's >Date : Tues, 27 May 1997 04:24 (EDT) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: HONEYBE100@aol.com (Linda Cortile) >Subject: Re: UFO Updates: The Poor Lost Astronaut - Edgar Mitchell >My, my, my...Ed. When I read your post regarding George >Filer as testifing before the staff members of congress...I >wanted to vomit. HI Linda, good to see your post on Filer, maybe that will stir up some discussion. At least on UpDates both sides of the story can be heard and argued. >By the way, Ed, although I don't know you, you sound like you >know your stuff. If I were you, I wouldn't let anyone's crude, >gramatical criticisms bother me. Sounds like you're getting >too >close to the truth and annoying the heck out of someone. <G> >Ed...thumbs up! Let em rip!!!!! >Regards, >Linda Cortile Linda, what I am trying to do on UFO UpDates and the other lists is spell out a general overview of what I believe is going on. I leave it to other more capable people to argue the details and destroy the arguments of these counter intelligence folks. I am glad to see you joining in these discussions. This Roswell 50th is bringing the debunkers out of the wood work. The latest that I have identified is Kent Jefferys. (Karl Pflock is old hat of course) I don't see any other motivation other than debunkery for Kent Jefferys going public with his sudden change of heart right at this time. Kent is like a general who gathers support and takes a leadership role into battle only to say I don't believe in this war anymore right when his people are getting shot to pieces. To go public at this critical time in Roswell history is just outrageous for someone in a leadership position. Such timing could hardly be a coincidence. There will be those that argue that Ed is jumping the gun here. That we haven't yet seen a public statement. I say by the time we see a public statement the damage in the press will already have been done. Fine time then to argue the case.! In this situation I say bite first and ask questions later. I am so tired of debunkers getting the benefit of the doubt when real witnesses get hammered over and over. Any responsible leader would have kept his personal opinions to himself at least till after the battle. If he had any reservations whatever he never should have taken a leadership role. I like many others feel that our trust has been betrayed by this man. I hope we can hold our own in the press this time around. It's going to be tough because honest Roswell researchers Randle and Friedman are sorely outnumbered by these debunkers coming on line. Anybody that takes the time can see that these debunker arguments don't stand up to scrutiny from the well informed on Updates. However the uninformed mainstream press and public can easily be victimized by these slick talkers.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 28 Santilli vs. Korff & Prometheus Books From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:24:14 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:25:52 -0400 Subject: Santilli vs. Korff & Prometheus Books The Roswell Wars continue to heat up, now I hear from a couple of sources that Ray Santilli has sued debunker Kal Korff and Prometheus Books. I am sure there are many just dieing to hear what this is all about. You all please post what ever you find out! The rest of the information I have on this I can not devulge because this one source wanted me to keep it confidential. Hey, Kal whats going on? The best, Ed Komarek, (ORTK) ----------------- To subscribe to the ORTK BULLETIN send mail to: listserve@awaiter.com with the following text in the body of the message: subscribe ortk-bulletins
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 28 MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B&B Affair From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:03:16 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:26:00 -0400 Subject: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B&B Affair >Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:05:16 -0400 >From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's Ufologists Are Real Patriots >> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 15:22:23 -0500 (CDT) >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's >>Ufologists Are >> Real Patriots Footnote 1 < snip > < insults to Ed Komarek deleted > > >All you do is pronounce and denounce from afar. A typical >>example of which >> is the post you repeated in the ORTK Bulletin #27 about >>MUFON members >> allegedly terrorizing some poor hapless B&B owners in the >>Texas Hill >> Country. Did you spend five minutes on a telephone trying to >>find out >> whether the story had any validity or not before posting it >>on the Web? The >> answer is that, no, you did not. If you learn that the story >>was composed >> entirely of composted cow patties would you admit as much >>and apologize for >> same in your Bulletin? I hope I'm wrong, but from what I've >>seen from your >> keyboard and modem thus far, I seriously doubt it. >Very interesting approach here. You attack Ed, pose a >rhetorical question >and then answer it yourself. You imply that you know more >about the alleged >incident than Ed but contribute absolutely NO information >about it yourself. >Neat tactic! >> So who's propagandizing who, Mr. Ed? If you've got facts and >>names, use >> them. >Yes Dennis why don't you apply a higher standard to yourself >and your post? >Instead what I see is insult, attack, imply you know >something and yet >provide no information about the incident yourself. Please if >you have >information about the incident you were discussing post it to >UFO UpDates >putting it in the public record or at least make it clear that >your >intention was not to add any information about the alleged >B&B incident >but were just engaging in a bit of propagandizing yourself. ----------------- Footnote 2( Also from Gary's post) >> And for what it's worth, do you call an Air Force report on >>Roswell that >> sells for $52 propaganda? If they had handed out free copies >>on street >> corners, I could maybe see it. >What a misuse of the language, propaganda is not defined by >whether or >not it is given away or purchased. Dear Dennis, I complement you on becoming involved and posting to a true open public forum where all sides of a issue can be heard and debated. This unlike the MUFON Journal of which you are editor and can control and suppress dissent. I think it wonderful that the public can assess the competence of the MUFON leadership in a truly open public forum. I though Gary did a excellent job addressing your post to UFO UpDates on me. I was hoping you would post your side of the story on the B&B affair and I could then put that in my next Bulletin. I think the airing of a little MUFON dirty laundry is healthy rather than see that laundry continue to pile up to overflowing in the MUFON dirty laundry warehouses. MUFON can only be a strong and viable organization as long as mistakes can be scrutinized and remedied, not swept under the rug with attacks on character and fancy rhetoric. I thought that Gary did a excellent job of taking apart your post on me. (Footnote 1) Then we have this incredible definition of propaganda coming from the editor of the MUFON Journal. Its obvious Dennis you are not used to public scrutiny. Wow! Just who's side are you on here. Are you saying that the Air Force report is not propaganda just because it costs a few bucks. You have got to do better than that. (Footnote 2) ------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe to the ORTK BULLETIN send mail to: listserve@awaiter.com with the following text in the body of the message: subscribe ortk-bulletins To unsubscribe, send mail to: listserve@awaiter.com with the following text in the body of the message: unsubscribe ortk-bulletins You can put anything you want in the subject header To reach the list administrator mail to edkomarek@aol.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 28 Re: Mogul Balloons & Foil-like Material From: DRudiak@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:19:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Mogul Balloons & Foil-like Material James Easton wrote: >Before we considered what properties it may have had, I added, "The >question was when did it become available in film form, i.e., Mylar". >If Mylar wasn't introduced until 1952, then there are no further >questions regarding it's possible use and composition in 1947. >The information from DuPont is not necessarily definitive. "Mylar" is >only one brand name and there may have been rival products available >before 1952. There was, for example, ICI's version of the synthetic >film, called "Melinex". I also asked ICI when this was first >available, but haven't heard from them. Charles Moore in his A.F. interview vaguely remembered that they started experimenting with mylar as a balloon material around 1950. But he was quite firm that nothing like that was available in 1947. >In 1933, ICI produced the first polythene, also known as polyethylene. >They may therefore have had quite a head start in producing >poly(ethylene terephthalate), which is effectively "Melinex", or >"Mylar". Very different stuff, as Moore pointed out. Mylar is clear and nonextensible while polyethylene is more translucent and stretchable. They first used polyethylene on the Mogul balloons starting July 3. The last all neoprene rubber balloon flight was on July 2. >However, the first flight of a large, single-cell polyethylene balloon >apparently took place on 25 September, 1947 and this was a "Project >Skyhook" balloon. According to the Mogul records, the first single-cell polyethylene Mogul was launched on July 5, 1947 (Mogul #10). The next one was Aug. 5 at Lakehurst, New Jersey (Mogul #12). The following Mogul launches at Alamogordo starting Sept. 5 were all single cell polyethylene balloons 15 to 20 feet in diameter. Project Skyhook was something else. >There's some confusion about whether the foil-like material could have >come from the radar targets, as cited by Professor Moore in the USAF >Report, or from the balloons themselves. Bessie Brazel Schreiber in >particular describes debris which "looked like pieces of a large >balloon which had burst" and states, "Most of it was a kind of >double-sided material, foil-like on one side and rubber-like on the >other. Both sides were grayish silver in color, the foil more silvery >than the rubber. Sticks, like kite sticks, were attached to some of >the pieces with a whitish tape. The tape was about two or three inches >wide and had flowerlike designs on it". >Although this foil-rubber material sounds like it might be material >from a balloon, the balloon trains consisted of neoprene and Bessie's >description doesn't seem to be consistent with that. I'm glad you recognize that. I've been pointing out this inconsistency for what seems like centuries now. What Schreiber's material sounds like is another Mogul balloon material, but one NOT available in 1947. This was neoprene-coated nylon coated with a metallic paint to minimize the effects of radiation. Unfortunately, the docs in the A.F. Report don't specify exactly where or when these were used (a total of 10 were ordered), but they are mentioned in the final Mogul report dated March 1951. In any case, they definitely can't account for what happened in July 1947. What would be the characteristics of such a material? Well, it would be hard to tear (Schreiber mentioned this property) and might be dull gray in color as described by some. It would also obviously be some sort of metallized, fine fabric, perhaps not too unlike what Sally Strickland Tadolini described. But could it account for the anomalous "plastic" or "memory" properties and damage resistance described by others? Could it be cut? Yes, obviously. Would it burn or smolder? Yes, and it would probably melt as well. Would it spontaneously unfold without wrinkles? Only if the rubber coating was quite thick and stiff, which would make it unsuitable as a high-altitude balloon material, since it would be much too heavy. So most of the physical properties still don't match the eyewitness description of others. Another problem is that Schreiber said some of the pieces were still attached to sticks. That means it couldn't be a balloon, but would have to come from a radar reflector. But as I've also pointed out, the radar reflectors were extremely light in weight. Again you couldn't have some heavy rubber material on there. There also seems to be no question that the radar reflectors used in 1947 used very thin aluminum foil, not metallized cloth. If the foil was backed with paper, then some type of glue would be used to hold the two together. This could be something like rubber cement, which would possibly account for the rubber-like quality, but again this doesn't account for the other reported characteristics of the foil. Another problem is that Shreiber failed to mention any foil backed with paper. Again, the description doesn't seem to match. And the photos in Fort Worth show some white wrinkled pieces of something on the ground, which could conceivably some white paper backing used on the radar reflectors. If this radar reflector supposedly came from a Mogul crash, why did Schreiber describe BOTH sides of the foil as being silver gray? Where was the white paper supposedly on the back of the foil and perhaps pictured in the Fort Worth photos? Schreiber never mentioned it. Nor did she mention anything like the smelly rubber debris of a neoprene rubber balloon that later showed up in Fort Worth. None of the debris field witnesses did. Another point is that Schreiber added to her description "...The foil-rubber material could not be torn like ordinary aluminum foil can be torn..." Again, that doesn't match a thin aluminum foil used on these reflectors, which both Charles Moore and Irving Newton described as extremely fragile and easily torn (but it might match something like the neoprene-coated nylon balloon later used). So these portions of Schreiber's statements really don't match Mogul at all. Also she mentioned a completely unknown writing on some of the pieces which she couldn't make out. This WASN'T the infamous tape with "flower patterns." All of this is conveniently overlooked by Mogul zealots. There are other problems with some of Schreiber's testimony, such as her statement that she was at the ranch during the military recovery. Marcel, who was there only the day before, was quite clear that Brazel lived alone and nobody else was there when he was (except for Cavitt and Brazel, of course). Bill Brazel in the "Roswell Incident" recalled that his father told him that the family had been visiting before he went to Roswell, but he dropped them off in Tularosa first. So how could Schreiber be back on the ranch two days later? It doesn't make sense. If it wasn't for Schreiber's description of the "flowered tape," the Mogul people would have no case at all, so they cling tenaciously to the portions of her testimony they like, outrageously twist some other portions to try to make it conform to Mogul, and ignore the portions that are directly in conflict with it. I really don't know what to make of Schreiber's testimony. She's stayed pretty consistent over the years and hasn't embellished her debris descriptions with time. So I don't detect any obvious signs of deliberate lying. Yet her testimony doesn't really add up. It's conceivable she read her father's newspaper interview back in 1947 and adapted her descriptions, including the "flower tape," to that. Or maybe she spoke to her father at some other time. He could have repeated the balloon description as a way of protecting her. I've also considered the possibility that maybe she witnessed another balloon crash and recovery at some later time, perhaps one of the metallized neoprene-coated nylon balloons. Maybe she got the two events confused in her mind. >A more direct approach would be to put some questions to Prof. Moore. >It should be possible to resolve these apparent anomalies and if >anyone on the list has an address for him, I wouldn't be adverse to >asking if he would help clear up these points. Moore was already asked these questions in his 1994 A.F. interview, and adamantly denied that mylar could be involved. It simply wasn't available in 1947. Aluminized mylar as an explanation for the mysterious memory foil is a debunker urban myth that seems to be dying very hard. Currently there is NO plausible conventional explanation for the anomalous physical properties attributed to the foil, wood-like beams, and other materials. The way Kal Korff tries to deal with it in his new book is to call everybody who described such things confabulators -- Marcel, Brazel Jr., Loretta Proctor, etc. Something about Roswell seems to have bred an unusally high density of pathological liars who manage to tell very similar stories while having no contact with one another. What might be interesting to ask Charles Moore about is the later neoprene-coated nylon balloons. Perhaps that will give us some insight into Schreiber's testimony.
The UFO UpDates Archive Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 28 Korff on Roswell (3) From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:26:32 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:18:21 -0400 Subject: Korff on Roswell (3) Now a look at Kal's comments on General Arthur Exon. Remember my disclaimers -- that I'm not commenting on the nature of the Roswell crash, or on the overall worth of Kal's book. I won't be drawn into arguments about those subjects. I'm only commenting on three passages in the book. Exon, as Roswell fans know, was Base Commander at Wright-Patterson air force base, a position that (as I understand it) made him one of the four or five top-ranking officers at the facility, with responsibility for logistics and administration. Supposedly he told Kevin Randle that what crashed at Roswell was extraterrestrial. This makes him an important witness indeed. What does Kal say? Something really sharp: "There is no excuse for how Exon's 'testimony' is misrepresented in the Randle-Schmitt book. It is blatant fiction on the part of the authors...Randle and Schmitt were deceptive in their presentation of both Exon's recollections and his supposed 'involvement' in the Roswell affair." So what's that about? The indictment, as it turns out, rests on one lone accusation, that Kevin Randle and Donald Schmitt presented Exon's remarks as if he were relating first-hand testimony, when actually he was only reporting things he'd heard from others. This, in some ways, is a remarkably trivial charge. Why do I say that? Well, suppose that it's true. Then we can shout "gotcha" to Randle and Schmitt, and we'll be careful to check anything either of them says in the future. But then what did Exon say even as a second-hand witness? As Kal himself tells us (see p. 93 of his Roswell book), Exon talks about Roswell debris being flown to Wright-Patterson. "The boys who tested it," Exon says, "said it was very unusual....It had them pretty puzzled." First-hand, second-hand....either way we've got a banner headline, even if Exon never said one word beyond what Kal quotes. An Air Force general, even if he's only giving his general impression of what he's heard about Roswell, says the same things about the Roswell debris as some of the controversial first-hand witnesses do! If you put any weight on Exon's impressions, the Mogul theory takes a big hit. Isn't that more important, in the overall scheme of things, than any question about Randle and Schmitt? And, as we'll see, Exon said much more than that. But then is Kal right to say Randle and Schmitt distorted Exon's remarks? I don't think so, for three reasons. (1) I've heard Kevin's first interview with Exon on tape, and read Kevin's scrupulously accurate transcript. I thought Exon said exactly what he's quoted as saying in Kevin's book. (2) Even the passage Kal quotes doesn't support his view. Here's how Kal presents it: "To read the Randle-Schmitt book, it appears that Exon _corrorborates_ the Roswell UFO recovery by providing impressive-sounding testimony that appears to be firsthand. 'We heard the material was coming to Wright Field....It was brought into our material evaluation labs. I don't know how it arrived but the boys who tested it said it was very unusual.' Exon described the material: '[Some of it] could be easily ripped or changed....there were other parts of it that were very thin but awfully strong and couldn't be dented with very heavy hammers....It was flexible to a degree,' and, according to Exon, 'some of it was flimsy and was tougher than hell and almost like foil but strong. It had them pretty puzzled.'" "To almost anyone reading this," Kal writes, "it would appear that...[Exon] was a _firsthand_ source who was present and personally saw what he describes." But I don't see it that way at all. Consider these statements: "We heard the material was coming....I don't know how it arrived, but the boys who tested it said...It had them pretty puzzled." Isn't it clear that Exon isn't speaking of first hand knowledge? Who wouldn't understand that Exon didn't handle this debris himself? A page later in the Randle-Schmitt book comes another Exon quote, which Kal doesn't reprint: "The metal and material was unknown to anyone I talked to. Whatever they found, I never heard what the results were. A couple of guys thought it might be Russian but the overall consensus was that the pieces were from space." Again, it's perfectly clear that Exon didn't handle or analyze the material himself, and even that his knowledge was limited. But he appears to think he'd spoken to people who knew at least something about what the analysis had shown. How sure was he of this knowledge? :Let me quote a few suggestive passages. First, an Exon quote from Randle's book: "I _know_ [my emphasis] that...{General Ramey] along with the people out at Roswell decided to change the story while they got their act together and got the information into the Pentagon." (UFO Crash at Roswell, paperback, p. 111.) Another Exon quote from Randle: "_I just know_ [again my emphasis] there was a top intelligence echelon represented and the President's office was represented and the Secretary of Defense's office was represented..." (He's talking about the secret UFO committee that he's sure existed; UFO Crash, p. 232.) And here's something Exon said on the tape, which wasn't quoted in Randle's book. Kevin asks, referring to stories we've all heard about alien corpses at Wright-Patterson: "You've heard the rumors about the little bodies, haven't you?" "Yes, I have," answers Exon. "In fact, _I know people_ that were involved in photographing some of the residue from the New Mexico affair near Roswell." [My emphasis.] Here's something else, about how Exon knows that there were alien bodies form Roswell at Wright-Patterson: "People I have known _who were involved with that_" told him so. [My emphasis.] Look back at the quote Kal thinks is so damning: 'We heard the material was coming to Wright Field....It was brought into our material evaluation labs. I don't know how it arrived but the boys who tested it said it was very unusual.' Exon described the material: '[Some of it] could be easily ripped or changed....there were other parts of it that were very thin but awfully strong and couldn't be dented with very heavy hammers....It was flexible to a degree,' and, according to Exon, 'some of it was flimsy and was tougher than hell and almost like foil but strong. It had them pretty puzzled.'" Given the full context of Exon's remarks...and bearing in mind everything I've quoted from Kevin's interview with him....isn't it clear (a) that Exon certainly _thought_ he knew quite a bit (even if not first hand) about the subjects he was quoted on, that (b) he says quite clearly that he'd talked to people who _were_ involved first-hand, and (c) that therefore the passage Kal quotes from Kevin's book is really quite reasonable in both its tone and content? I don't think it misrepresents Exon at all. (Here's another quote from Exon, from the tape: "Most of the people you're talking to are a little bit like me. Close enough to know that there was something happening. They had no direct responsibility for any of it." Anyone who reads the complete sections on Exon from Randle's books will, I think, form exactly that impression.) And now let's take a closer look at what Exon actually said. Let me say again that I've done more than read Kevin's two Roswell books (and, by the way, the second, which Kal doesn't mention at all, has additional material that continues to make it clear that Exon wasn't speaking first-hand). I've listened on tape to the interview Kevin quotes, and read Kevin's entirely accurate transcript. What does Exon say? Taking account the full text of the interview, and the full extent of accurate quotes from it in Kevin's book, including many things I haven't mentioned here yet: 1. Exon says he believes the Roswell crash was extraterrestrial. ("Roswell was the recovery of a craft from space.") 2. He says he knows that debris from the crash was studied at Wrig ht-Patterson, and that the debris was extremely unusual. His description matches that of alleged first-hand witnesses. 3. He says that "apparently" there were bodies found, and that they were located at "another location," or in other words not at the location of the metallic debris. The main body of the craft, he says, was also found there. (What he means by "apparently" isn't clear. He says this, however, just after he talks about what people have told him about the metallic debris. It seems reasonable to assume the same people told him about the bodies. Note that Exon's mention of "another location" supports Kevin's thesis of two crash sites. When you hear the interview on tape, it's clear that Exon says this all on his own. Randle hasn't even brought up the topic.) 4. He says the bodies were brought to Wright-Patterson. 5. He says he flew over the Roswell crash site, and saw the "gouge" the crashed object made in the ground. (Kal, rather oddly, mentions this elsewhere in his book, but doesn't dispute it -- or, in fact, even mention it -- in the passage I'm discussing, which is his major examination of Exon's role as a Roswell witness. I can assure everyone that Exon indeed did say this. I heard him say it on the tape.) 6. He says there was a coverup. In fact, he calls it (on the tape) "a national coverup project." 7. He talks about which government officials served, in his opinion, on a secret UFO project. 8. He talks about a secret Air Force team that investigated UFO events. This is first-hand knowledge. He dispatched the planes that flew the team to the events they investigated. It's also notable that he brings up Roswell all by himself. Kevin didn't know he knew about it. Kevin's only thought was to talk to someone who'd been at Wright-Patterson about the rumors of crash debris there. Let me repeat a passage from the tape that I quoted earlier. Kevin asks, referring to stories we've all heard about alien corpses at Wright-Patterson: "You've heard the rumors about the little bodies, haven't you?" "Yes, I have," answers Exon. "In fact, I know people that were involved in photographing some of the residue from the New Mexico affair near Roswell." This is the first mention of Roswell in the interview....and it comes from Exon. Is all of this remarkable? Of course it is. An Air Force general, whose assignment at Wright-Patterson suggests he might have been in a position to know what he was talking about, says, in great detail, that he thinks the Roswell crash was real. This is big news. Does Kal give any hint of how big the news is? Not at all. In fact, his book raises a screaming, unspoken question. Suppose Kal's right to say that Kevin exaggerated Exon's knowledge. That doesn't change the fact that Exon really believed the Roswell crash was alien. Why, then, did Exon believe that? How deeply did he believe it? Does he believe it still? Aren't these the basic questions here? Why doesn't Kal seem even remotely interested in them? One last point. Kal says that Exon doesn't stand behind what Kevin and Don Schmitt wrote. And sure enough, he has a quote from a letter wrote to Randle: "Further, you both [Randle and Schmitt] likely recall on many occasions during my visits with you in person and on the phone...that I did not know anything firsthand. Although I believe you did quote me accurately, I do believe that in your writings you gave more credence and impression of personal and direct knowledge that [sic -- I think he means "than"] my recordings would indicate on their own! I felt that throughout the portions where my name was used." Fine. Let's forget for a moment that Exon might have every reason to back off from what he'd said -- he'd been talking out of school, and someone might have firmly told him so -- and assume he really stands behind this criticism. He truly thinks Schmitt and Randle exaggerated his direct involvement. But he also says they quoted him accurately! In other words, he doesn't challenge their assertions that he though the crash was extraterrestrial, that he'd heard the metallic debris was really changed, that he'd heard there were bodies, that he believed there was a coverup, that he believed top government officials were involved in a secret UFO committee, and that he himself had dispatched planes on secret UFO-related missions. If he's not challenging all of that, then his words to Kevin are the mildest of rebukes. If this relatively minor point is the full extent of his disagreement with the things about him in the book, isn't he in effect endorsing everything important that Schmitt and Randle said?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 28 Book by USAF 1st Lt. James McAndrew on 'Roswell' From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:59:12 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:25:22 -0400 Subject: Book by USAF 1st Lt. James McAndrew on 'Roswell' There have been rumours regarding another AF report on Roswell, based primarily on the fact that James McAndrews has continued to probe into the issue even though the 1994 report has been issued. It turns out that this research apparently wasn't for an Air Force report, but for one that McAndrews was preparing on this own. This information was obtained from Amazon.com: >The Roswell Report : Case Solved >by James McAndrew >Hardcover >Price information not available. You can still order this item, and we >will request approval of the price via e-mail prior to shipment. >Published by Government Printing Office >Publication date: April 1997 >ISBN: 9997911156 I find it somewhat odd that a book has been written by a Government (Air Force) employee, printed by the Government Printing Office, and is being marketed by a private book distribution site. If there are any profits, I wonder who gets them . . . . . .<g>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 28 'Mogul' Balloon Question From: Scott Hale <shale@megalinx.net> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:27:40 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:26:36 -0400 Subject: 'Mogul' Balloon Question All, According to the Air Force, were the Mogul balloons equipped with Rawin radar targets or a different type of target? Thanks, Scott K. Hale
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 28 Re: Ecker on Corso & Marrs Books From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:46:02 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:05:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Ecker on Corso & Marrs Books Regarding... >From: DONFEII@aol.com >Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:24:53 -0400 (EDT) >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Ecker on Corso & Marrs Books Don Ecker wrote: >The secret that Corso says he releases is concerned with the Roswell >incident.... How Corso was detailed to pump alien artifacts into the >industrial pipeline to jump start many areas of today's current >technology! >Some of the items he links to ET-inspired R&D are night-vision >technology, which the Army began using later in Viet Nam, fibre-optic >technology which has created a revolution in communications, lasers >and particle beam technology for advanced weaponry, silicon computer >chips which have revolutionized computer technology. Don, There are major problems with these claims. Let's take it back a bit... In 1930, Dr. Julius Edgar Lilienfield of New York, filed for a patent on a "Method and Apparatus for Controlling Electric Currents". He was issued with a patent for the first solid-state, amplifying transistor. Presumably, that wasn't ET inspired. In 1947, three scientists at Bell Telephone Laboratories, William Shockley, Walter Brattain and John Bardeen demonstrated their new invention of the point-contact transistor amplifier. Their research pre-dated "Roswell". In 1956 they were awarded the Nobel Prize in physics for their work in developing the transistor. In 1952, G. W. Dummer, a _British_ radar expert, presented a paper proposing that a solid block of materials be used to connect electronic components, with no connecting wires. In 1953, IBM unveiled the Defense Calculator, its first computer and primitive by today's standards. These were all milestones and natural progressions. There was no "leap" in technology, simply a genesis of ideas and improved manufacturing capabilities. That was the case in 1953 and has been since 1954, when Texas Instruments announced the first commercial production of silicon transistors. "Silicon chips" were an early 1970s terrestrial technology and their gradual development has been documented in countless books. The same premise applies to the other technologies. For example, in 1926, John Logie Baird patented a design for a colour television that used glass rods to carry light. It was years ahead of its time and the principle wasn't put into practice until suitable manufacturing techniques became available. Even then, the fibre optics were rudimentary and required some 20 years of gradual improvements. Corso's outlandish claims obviously require to be supported with tangible, verifiable evidence. Does he offer any? James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 28 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: KRandle993@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:13:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context Say Kal - Just what "critical" files do you allege were missing when YOU examined the CUFOS files on Roswell? If you found something missing, why didn't you contact me to find out if I could send you the information. Phil Klass has asked for a number of documents and I've sent them along? What "new" facts do you report in your book that haven't been reported by someone else? Any one will do. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 28 AUFORA News Update - Tuesday May 27th, 1997 From: David Watanabe <davew@aufora.org> Date: Tue, 27 May 97 18:32:46 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:27:40 -0400 Subject: AUFORA News Update - Tuesday May 27th, 1997 AUFORA News Update Tuesday May 27th, 1997 http://www.aufora.org/ ______________________ MOVEMENT OF AREA 51 OPERATIONS? by Glenn Campbell - webmaster@ufomind.com I finally got a copy of the June "Popular Mechanics" article on "the new Area 51." I have never seen such garbage in a national magazine! In nearly every paragraph there is a major glaring factual area. Doesn't Popular Mechanics have editors? Nearly everything mentioned about "Area 51" is false. There is no obvious change of activity here. The same number of workers park at the Janet terminal. There are no locked gates anywhere, except for remote dirt roads that no one uses and that have always been locked. The rest of the article sounds mighty weak, too. The "Area 6413" mentioned is an AIRSPACE not a ground area. I looked up R-6413 on a recent air chart. It isn't even restricted except by 48-hour NOTAM (advanced notice to pilots). In other words, before you could launch or land a secret craft there, you would have to tell the world, HEY, WE'RE GOING TO USE THIS AIRSPACE IN TWO DAYS. Is that any way to run a secret base? On the land use maps I have, the land under the airspace looks open -- mostly BLM and state land. You could go there to look around if you wanted, but it seems to me it isn't worth the effort. What's the best way to find out what R-6413 is used for? CALL UP WHITE SANDS AND ASK THEM -- something the author apparently never tried. (My guess is that it is a rarely used missile launching area.) I wish I had time to list all the errors in the article -- but the list would be as long as the article itself, It is a follow-on to the previous article on Area 51 in Popular Mechanics. I "helped" on that one, but it was clear from the beginning that it would be a cheap rip-off of articles by Popular Science. This latest article can't even aspire that high. As the name implies, Popular Mechanics aims for the downscale lawnmower market, so who cares about facts? __________________________________________________________ AUFORA News Update News & Information from the world of UFOlogy AUFORA Web: http://www.aufora.org/ AUFORA News: http://www.aufora.org/news/ AUFORA Discussion: http://www.aufora.org/discuss/ ********************************************************** TO SUBSCRIBE: Send email to: majordomo@spots.ab.ca with "subscribe aufora" in the body of the message. TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send email to: majordomo@spots.ab.ca with "unsubscribe aufora" in the body of the message. Subscribe / unsubscribe requests not done following the above instructions will BE IGNORED!!! ********************************************************** Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of AUFORA __________________________________________________________ Distributed by the Alberta UFO Research Association __________________________________________________________ <a href="http://tigger.cyberloft.com/cgi-bin/AD/redirect.cgi?AD=0125"> <img width=120 height=60 src="http://tIgger.cyberloft.com/cgi-bin/AD/getimage.cgi?AD=0125" BORDER=1></a>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 28 Re: Korff on Roswell (2) From: KRandle993@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:12:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Korff on Roswell (2) >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: "UFO Updates (E-mail)" <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: korff on roswell (2) >Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:10:56 -0400 >On to Easley. Kal has one piece of new information, the source -- and >thus, the importance -- of which is oddly buried in his footnotes. >This is that Easley "had a tendency to place himself in events at >which he was not present." The source for this, according to the >footnote, is Easley's physician. And while I give Kal full credit for >finding this out, I must fault him for not telling us more. How long >did this doctor treat Easley? How well did he know him? How often did >Easley's memory confabulate in this way? What was the context of his >confabulations? Without this information, there's no way to know >what Korff's new data means. Did Easley imagine he was at family >functions he'd actually missed (a relatively harmless invention), or >did he speak of major trips, let's say, which in reality he'd never >taken (which would be a lot more serious)? I'm sensitive to these >matters partly because my own mother is 91, and has been losing her >memory for the past two years. Right now I wouldn't trust her >recollections even of things you'd think would be engraved in her >brain cells, like the birth of her two children. But a year ago this >wasn't so. Kal hasn't told us enough about Easley to let me know what >to make of the new data. This might have relevance if Easley hadn't been the provost marshal (please notice the single "L"), hadn't been at Roswell, and hadn't had his role in the events corroborated by others who were also there including other members of the MP units. >"Kevin Randle interviewed Maj. Edwin Easley shortly before his death. >After initially refusing to confirm to Randle that he was even there >at Roswell, Randle claims that Easley on his deathbed envetually >confessed that not only had he 'been there,' but that he had also >seen alien bodies. Indeed, the authors write, 'Easley was reluctant >to talk of bodies, but finally, before he died, said that he had seen >them. He had been close enough to them to know they weren't human. He >called them "creatures."'" [For punctuation fans -- after 17 years of >professional writing, I think this is the first time I've ever had to >use three levels of quotation marks!] As Greg has correctly pointed out, this isn't even close to the fact. >Kal then says, in much the spirit of his remarks on Pappy Henderson >(see my previous message, "Korff on Roswell (1)"), that Randle wasn't >present when Easley died, and that thus we have nothing but "Kevin >Randle's 'word'" for what Easley said. "Until Kevin Randle is ever >able to provide evidence and/or documentation to back up his >statement," Kal concludes, "Easley's alleged deathbedremarks cannot >be considered as credible evidence for the extraterrestrial nature of >the Roswell incident." This would be family members who corroborate it? Maybe his doctor who heard it? Sufficient? Probably not for debunkers. [snip] >But on the other hand the event may well have happened. The logical >next step for Kevin would have been to call Easley's duaghter to >confirm this. I don't know whether or not he did; he's guilty of >sloppy work if he didn't, since as unchecked third-hand information, >the letter from the man in Dallas isn't conclusive evidence by >itself. Still, Kal was far too hasty here. If the source of Kevin's >information wasn't clear to him, he should have picked up the phone >and asked Kevin about it. (I'm not getting into the dispute between >Kal and Kevin about what Roswell material was or wasn't available >through CUFOS. If Kal couldn't get what he wanted through CUFOS, a >call to Kevin was the logical, in fact inevitable next step. Had I >been writing this story for a newspaper or a national magazine, no >editor I've ever worked for would have let me publish until I'd made >that call.) So, if I had dinner with one of his daughter's after he died and we talked about this, or Dr. Mark Rodeghier spoke to his doctor, Granik, or I tried to verify it through other family members, then it's not sloppy. BTW: Kal, just what "critical" files do you allege you couldn't find when you searched the CUFOS files... What, you weren't there. Then how would you know that critical files were missing? >More serious, though, is Kal's failure to distinguish between this >alleged deathbed conversation, which Kevin didn't hear first-hand, >and Easley's alleged admission on the phone that the crash was >extraterrestrial, which was supposedly made right in Kevin's ear. Kal >also doesn't mention that Kevin talked to Easley three times on the >phone, and, maybe most crucially of all, he leaves out one of the >most central parts of the Easlsey/Randle saga, which is Easley's talk >about being sworn to secrecy. Actually, I spoke to him more than three times, but on a couple of those occasions, it was to clarify other information, or to check to see which officers might have known something. Easley alerted me to the fact that there were two MP units on the base. That is, one besides the 1395th MP Company. >Kal alludes to it, indirectly, when he says that Easlsey initially >refused to confirm "that he was even there at Roswell." This >statement, on its face, is not even correct, since Easley did state >with no hesitation that he was at the base. Of course, Kal is simply >using language freely here, and really means that Easley refused to >confirm that he was involved in any crash activities. But even then >Kal's sentence is misleading, because it leaves out the very crucial >why and how of Easley's refusal. This is actually a referral to Cavitt and not Easely. Easley always made it clear he was the right guy. Besides, we have his picture in the yearbook. [snip] >Kal doesn't breathe a word of this, and hence has misrepresented both >the tone and content of Kevin's interviews with Easley. Kevin, I >have to say, made one serious mistake. He didn't tape the >conversation during which, he says, Easley finally told his story, >and stated that what crashed was alien. (Or, to be absolutely >accurate, said that Kevin would be correct to believe such a thing.) >So here we really do have only Kevin's "word" to rely on, along with >his notes, of course, though when Kevin states (as he did in a >previous message here) that his notes ought to be sufficient >evidence, I can't agree. Though I trust Kevin's honesty, in something >as earth-shaking as this I want a tape. This is why I made the comment about the public record. Because I didn't have a tape recorder handy (I was at the CUFOS office) I planned to get him to say it again. He got sick before I had the chance. But see, the public record is my reporting of the conversation. I KNOW what he said to me and I wish that I could prove it. However, I do have the written statement made by Patrick Saunders that is detailed in THE RANDLE REPORT. Yeah, if I don't blow the horn, who will? Saunders, on the flyleaf of THE TRUTH ABOUT THE UFO CRASH AT ROSWELL wrote, "This is the truth and I never told anybody anything." That from another officer on Blanchard's staff. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 28 Re: Santilli vs. Korff & Prometheus Books From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:25:28 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:07:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Santilli vs. Korff & Prometheus Books >From: EdKomarek@aol.com >Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:24:14 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Santilli's Lawsuit Against Korff & Prometheus Books >The Roswell Wars continue to heat up, now I hear from a couple of sources >that Ray Santilli has sued debunker Kal Korff and Prometheus Books. I am >sure there are many just dieing to hear what this is all about. >You all please post what ever you find out! The rest of the information I >have on this I can not devulge because this one source wanted me to keep >it confidential. Hey, Kal whats going on? >The best, Ed Komarek, (ORTK) ----------------- Jim Moesley called me last night. He is one of my sources and of course if you know Jim, he loves this sort of thing. Says he will have a full accounting of this affair in his next Smear. Jim says he is not sure if there was a lawsuit filed or not. He says its a big difference between filing a lawsuit and sending threatning letters. Jim says the problem seems to be over reproducing the stills and more importantly the caption under a enhanced photo of the supposed cameraman. Santilli is claiming that this liables him says Jim. I don't know if a suit was filed if it was in England or in the U.S. and neither does Jim. The liable laws are much more strict in England. Hopefully Kal will come on the net and clear things up. Where is the man you you need him? The best, Ed Komarek (ORTK)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 28 IRC meetings with interesting people... From: DeGodfather <yam@netvision.net.il> Date: Wed, 28 May 97 20:16:40 PDT Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:16:05 -0400 Subject: IRC meetings with interesting people... To: UFO Updates <UpDates@Globalserve.net> From: yechiel A. Mann <Yam@NetVision.Net.Il> Date: 28th May, 1997. Subject: IRC meetings with interesting people... To all concerned, i would like to inform everyone of meetings scheduled in the UFO/ET related IRC (Internet Relay Chat) channel #CSETI (on DALnet), with certain people. First, on Thursday, June 5th, at 12:00 (NOON) PST, we will have a meeting with the head of CSETI, Dr. Steven M. Greer. CSETI members are expected to be there as well. Second, we've just scheduled a meeting with Norio Hayakawa, on Saturday, June 7th, at the same time as above. Other interesting people should be there for the occasions. i hope to see as many of you as possible there as well. For those of you who don't have IRC, a program can be downloaded from http://www.mirc.co.uk We regularly have meetings there on Saturdays, at 12:00 noon PST. That's 16:00 EST, 20:00 GMT. There have been recent attempts to make meetings daily, at that time, but those have just begun, and we will need your help in getting them off the ground. The channel has, so far, proven to be excellent means of communication, and we have an excellent group of people that come there regularly. It's always exciting to hear from people from ALL over the world. It's been a great place for the exchange of information, files, pictures, sounds, texts, websites, etc.. It's an excellent means of real-time communications. i will be glad to see you there, at all times. Feel free to use the channel to schedule your own meetings, at any time. It's becoming more and more active by the day. Please pass this information on to anyone you think might be interested. If anyone has problems, for any reason, getting onto IRC, you can contact me personally, and i will help. See you all there! -yechiel.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 28 Re: Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's..... From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:41:36 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:16:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's..... >Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:05:16 -0400 >From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Say's Ufologists Are > Real Patriots >What a misuse of the language, propaganda is not defined by whether or >not it is given away or purchased. Propaganda depends largely on distribution. If you don't distribute it, then you might as well sit in a corner and masturbate, for all the good it does. Charging $52 for a report you define as propaganda by definition is not my idea of seeking wide distribution. Did you buy one? Neither did I. Do you think Hitler charged an exorbitant fee for Mein Kampf? Neither do I. So don't be so g--damn glib. You know what I meant, and it wasn't a misuse of the language. Any government 'propaganda' about Roswell has long been lost in a swamp of popular books and video segments about same. You see those authors out there pushing their books and videos (and the summer hasn't even started)-- you don't see the Air Force pushing their $52 report. Get real, get a life and get serious. And don't misuse the language. If there's a propaganda war at work here, the Air Force long ago lost. Ask Gallup. >Very interesting approach here. You attack Ed, pose a rhetorical question >and then answer it yourself. You imply that you know more about the alleged >incident than Ed but contribute absolutely NO information about it yourself. >Neat tactic! I implied no such. Are you unable to read? If so, let me put it in terms you'll understand. I know absolutely nothing about any incident in which MUFON members allegedly interrupted some abduction meeting in the Texas hill country with flash-bulbs popping, so have no information about same to contribute. Nor does Tom Deuley, nor does Walt Andrus, both of whom I've discussed the issue with. However, we are all absolutely agreed that if such an incident did occur, that MUFON owes the victims a sincere apology, which we are perfectly willing to render at any time. Moreover, we will publicly condemn and disassociate ourselves with any "attackers" so identified. We ask that you, Gary, and ORTK do the same, if your own colleagues are found guilty of spreading malicious rumors. Ed Komarek posted the story, without any attempt at verification whatsoever, although no doubt with an eye to slinging mud. I simply asked him to supply any information about the incident he may have gathered, and to name names in the process. (This is an "attack"?) If he can't--or won't--name the MUFON members supposedly involved, then perhaps he can supply the name of the person(s) making the allegations. If he couldn't do either of those, then I suggested that he do the honorable thing--which was to issue his own public retraction and apology, in the same format, and to the same people, in which it was originally posted. This makes me an ogre? >Yes Dennis why don't you apply a higher standard to yourself and your post? >Instead what I see is insult, attack, imply you know something and yet >provide no information about the incident yourself. Please if you have >information about the incident you were discussing post it to UFO UpDates >putting it in the public record or at least make it clear that your >intention was not to add any information about the alleged B&B incident >but were just engaging in a bit of propagandizing yourself. No higher standard is needed, believe me, although it wouldn't be hard to come up with one compared to yours. Fact is, I've already answered this, and still don't see how you could have misunderstood. I know nothing, repeat, nothing, about any such incident, and so have no information to post. And I suspect that the reason that I've never heard anything about it, despite the fact that I live in the Texas hill country myself (OK, in San Antonio), is that it never happened. Can you dig? If it happened, then you supply the information. Name names, and don't hide behind baseless allegations. If it didn't happen, then have the personal decency to say so. How many ways and times does it have to be spelled out? If you're wrong about something, just have the balls (sorry, ladies on the list!) to stand up and say so. Quit obfuscating and vacillating. Komarek posted charges for which he has no personal verification or evidence for whatsoever. What is MUFON supposed to say in response? That we've stopped beating our wives and abusing our children? OK, we've stopped beating our wives and abusing our children. But I guess you want more information. OK, we stopped beating our wives and abusing our children yesterday. Happy? How about you? Ed, when did you stop beating/abusing yours? >Denis, Ever hear of mutual deterrence? The name is Dennis. Yes, I have, but so what? Are you implying that you're just going to respond negatively and oppositely to anything I say whether I'm right or wrong, just because I said it? Fine. In this case, I'm right and you're wrong. To the best of my knowledge, no such incident occurred. Period. But while we're speaking of mutual deterrence, why play softball? Why not make email count for something? So here's what I propose. In regard to the alleged MUFON attack on hapless Hill Country B&B owners, I give Ed Komarek one week to respond, either with information that anyone can check out for themselves, and thus verify, or with a public apology that such allegations have, in fact, no basis in reality. No wishy-washy, ambiguous statement, either, but a straightforward announcement, after investigation, that no such evidence exists. Neat and simple. Ed can back up his claims or withdraw them. If he doesn't, then I'm out of here. Life is too short for this sort of crap. Either Ed goes or I go. Anyone who wants to read his bilious, paranoid diatribes can subscribe to same, but that's not the list I signed up for. Everyone is entitled to their personal opinion, but everyone is not entitled to promulgate malicious rumors at whim, without being called to account for them. And I won't be a polite party to same by pretending that it doesn't matter. A difference of opinion, and interpretation of evidence, is one thing. A personal, political agenda that knows no bounds--and relies on scurrilous rumor and innuendo--is another altogether. Over to you, Ed, and waterboy Gary. (Aside to Linda: Spelling ain't got nothing to do with it, babe.) Oh, I almost forgot. Has Ed ever told anyone about the time he met with Bruce Maccabee's CIA contact in Washington? Oh, damn, Ed, I didn't mean to bring that up! You'd told me to keep it confident. But at least I didn't spill the beans about the time the ORTK board gang-poked what's her name, you know, the socialite in charge of Laurence Rockefeller's transparent UFO agenda, the one that pretends to be promoting open disclosure, but which we all know (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) is really part of the overall government cover up. Push me too far and I'll tell all about your NSA liaison, too. More to the point: Excuse me, but am I the only one who's figured out the obvious here? Namely, the fact that the Air Force (CIA, NSA, hell, whoever) permits ORTK to exist at all is obvious proof of a conspiracy. I mean, if you were the Air Force and wanted a spokesman who could singlehandedly embarrass the entire UFO movement in public in one swell foop, wouldn't you hire Ed Komarek? I wood. SA Sasquatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 28 Re: Kal, do us a favor From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:28:03 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:10:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal, do us a favor Hi Kal, List, Having read dozens of messages these last weeks by people like Kevin Randle, David Rudiak, Bob Shell and Greg Sandow, commenting on Kal Korff's book 'Roswell, what they don't want you to know', I think the evidence is now quite overwhelming that the book is so fraught with false assumptions, rumors and misrepresentations that it cannot be taken seriously by researchers. At the same time the effect of this book on public perception will be that more people will doubt that an unknown flying object (or two) crashed in New Mexico, 1947. Because 'Roswell' now has such a prominent place in public perception, this goes a long way to discredit al the evidence for the existence of UFOs. Why Kal has written such a book we may never know. I don't think Korff is a 'debunker' and the question whether he is paid by some US government agency is less relevant than some suggest. As far as I can see it is just insufficient analytical skills, coupled with the hunger for fame and money that have deluded him. The problem is that Kal seems to have better relations with big media that most UFO researchers, no mattter how meticulous their research is. Therefore I want to ask Kal the following. Kal, . are you prepared to correct the errors in your book in its next edition? . you say you are not a debunker, but an honest researcher who wants to know the truth. You have been around in this field long enough to know that it is extremely difficult to get a large part of the public, science and those with political power, to accept the fact that there are things going on that defy prosaic explanations. Are you therefore prepared to do Ufology a favor and from now on state publicly at every occasion you get to the media that the USAF report was wrong and that there is enough evidence for the existence of UFOs to warrant a large scale independent investigation? If not, why not? __________________________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Leiden, The Netherlands \___________________________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 28 FYI - Today's Returns from AOL - Full Mailboxes From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:35:44 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:35:44 -0400 Subject: FYI - Today's Returns from AOL - Full Mailboxes Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:12:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Mailer-daemon@aol.com Subject: Returned Mail: Undeliverable To: updates@globalserve.net The mail you sent could not be delivered to: 552 totlresrch@aol.com has a full mailbox[- Kal Korff] 552 pamela7@aol.com has a full mailbox[- Pam Rawlins] [snip] ebk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 28 Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B&B Affair From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:10:35 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:01:48 -0400 Subject: Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B&B Affair >From: EdKomarek@aol.com >Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:03:16 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B&B Affair > >Dear Dennis, I complement you on becoming involved and posting to a true open >public forum where all sides of a issue can be heard and debated. This >unlike the MUFON Journal of which you are editor and can control and suppress >dissent. I think it wonderful that the public can assess the competence of >the MUFON leadership in a truly open public forum. > Dear Ed: It's compliment, not complement. And I don't need any of either from you. I was involved in this public forum before you ever heard of it. The only other statement you got right in your first paragraph is that, yes, I am indeed editor of the MUFON Journal. Have been for over a decade. For a good five of those years, the only thanks I got for editing a monthly journal was just that -- thanks. I'm a professional writer and editor -- that's how I make my living. My most recent book, co-edited with Hilary Evans, has just been published in England. It's called "UFO 1947-1997: Fifty Years of Flying Saucers." I was personally responsible for the soliciting and editing of essays by such well known debunkers and government agents as Jacques Vallee, Jan Aldrich, Jerry Clark, Michael Swords, Chris Rutkowski, Jim Moseley, Patrick Huyghe, Raymond Fowler and others. I also had an article lined up by Budd Hopkins; unfortunately, we weren't able to include it because reprint rights didn't arrive in time. Again, I call upon you to address specifics and stop making general, baseless allegations. Cite by specific example(s) the dissent you claim I "control and suppress." Did I suppress Elaine Douglass's recent article in defense of John Ford, for example? >I though Gary did a excellent job addressing your post to UFO UpDates on me. >I was hoping you would post your side of the story on the B&B affair and I >could then put that in my next Bulletin. I think the airing of a little >MUFON dirty laundry is healthy rather than see that laundry continue to pile >up to overflowing in the MUFON dirty laundry warehouses. > >MUFON can only be a strong and viable organization as long as mistakes can be >scrutinized and remedied, not swept under the rug with attacks on character >and fancy rhetoric. I thought that Gary did a excellent job of taking apart >your post on me. > You can think what you want. The fact of the matter, though, is that it's you, Ed, who relentlessly attacks the character of everyone who doesn't agree with your paranoid worldview. If it's not me or MUFON, it's Kent Jeffrey. The latter can't just be an honest man expressing an honest opinion. No, to you, he's a tireless schemer, liar and Roswell debunker who probably puts tacks in the ORTK parking lot to boot. What a sad commentary on your own lack of moral scruples. It's you, Ed, who is always insisting that the messenger be smeared, primarily because it's easier to do that than to have to actually *think* about the message itself. So sharpen your poison pen, Ed. Jeffrey's article should be in the next issue of the Journal, where I'll be controlling and suppressing all the dissent. As for MUFON's "dirty laundry" in the ranch attack, you still don't get it, do you, Ed? Tom, Walt and I have spoken to a number of people here in Texas, and no has the foggiest notion of an idea of what these people are talking about. If you weren't so paranoid yourself, 60 seconds of common sense would tell you and most people that the story makes no sense whatsoever. Do you really think that we sat around Seguin plotting a disruptive attack on someone we've never even heard of? What will our heinous minds come up with next? Soap on Whitley Strieber's windows? But you don't CARE if the story is true or not, Ed, because to you it's all just dirty MUFON laundry. So why check, why ask for names and confirmation, when you can just spread rumor and innuendo, most of which MUFON has no adequate way of addressing because we can never be sure that everyone you personally polluted will see our response. It's an old tactic, Ed, and it has nothing to do with an honest difference of opinion or public forum, but everything to do with a tar brush. You're one of the best at that, Ed, so keep it up. To reiterate: MUFON has absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of any kind of an "attack" aimed at disrupting an abduction conference anywhere in Texas. We would never condone such activity. If it can be demonstrated that such an experience occurred and that someone or ones who perpetrated it were in anyway associated with MUFON, we will immediately issue a public apology, condemn any such activity, and disassociate ourselves with those individuals involved. As far as we are concerned, the only place this event ever occurred is in the fertile mind of Ed Komarek. All we ask in return is that you substantiate your allegations or retract them in public. An apology would be welcome, too, but believe me, we won't be holding our collective breath. SA Sasquatch MUFON Storm Trooper Where our motto is: "Control & Suppress Dissent"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 28 Re: Secrecy and general attacks From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> Date: 28 May 97 14:18:20 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:04:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Secrecy and general attacks >Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:37:18 +0200 (MET DST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Secrecy and general attacks Henny wrote; >Why not treat everybody with respect to begin with. I tried this once with three people who wanted my money. They still beat me up. You should end that with a '?' if it isn't rhetoric. >Providing 'disinformation' is one of the ways of intentionally >deceiving people. If that is what you mean, I am with you. See, easy, isn't it? >As far as I can see, it's misinformation. Yep, that's what it was OK. Now, what would have been the correct response? To intimate both or steer the conversation around to the topic in hand? >> You throw a ball, it bounces back. << Ah, so that thing about respect is one-sided then? >Because it stretches credulity that you cannot think of a few >yourself. I wasn't claiming there was ten and a 'top ten' at that. I do know a few, but I wanted to compare them with someone who had a list. Now the complaint has changed from being presumptive to not being presumptive enough? >Maybe I'll do that privately before you enable your email filter. That's the spirit... >Again you miss the point. The leaks of government involvement into >UFOs simply make it more probable that they indeed are involved. 'Involvement' is the loaded word there. MUFON investigates UFOs and by implication is 'involved' but we don't suggest that they have one they're disassembling one for spares. Showing evidence of coverup relies on 'proving' a causual link between _getting_ and _keeping_ alien technology. Simply proving that the USAF was interested in unidentified flying objects is not enough. I can tell you that the coastguard and HM Customs & Excise are interested in UFOs in that regard. With regard to the best leaks we have, in Bill Uhouse and Bob Lazar, there is a real lack of specifics as to the uses that this stuff is currently being put to. Lazar claims to have known the 'wavelength' of gravity, and by inference this suggests that tests would be done. Back in 1980. Uhouse claims to have helped build a flight simulator that would train USAF pilots in piloting _alien_ manufactured aircraft. Again this dates from the 1990s, which shows a tad of disparity. If you believe Wolf, then this places another spin on the first two that draws some of their evidence into doubt. It's a bloody mess. If you take the relatively huge number of 'whistleblowers' at face value and examine things they said, then they disagree on a number of points. You may have seen my statement on creating confusion, I hope you're thinking about it seriously. The question is, can we trust anything that comes from government and are they capable of holding a piss up in a brewery (a drinking party in a brewery). I tend to answer 'no' to both questions, and that colours my judgement on what they can and cannot get away with, although I'm far from a paragon on this. I'm _interested_ in all of this, which is why I continue looking and avoid calling peoples experience on qualifications, creed or belief. Imagine my annoyance when the only conversation I get is general character assassination. In short, I don't think that anything promoted by Lazar, Wolf or Uhouse can be remotely described as leaked, as there appears to be no basis in fact. Ok, this could turn up, but until then we're required to believe without questioning? The Moonies have more convincing arguments on this score. Anyway, what it comes down to is fleshing out your assertation that stories have a spark of truth. >>Yes, but I don't assume it's _real_. >Geez, somehow I expected this. Would you care to go into your reasons for believing in it? I can't stress the sincerity with which I'm interested. >Very few people in Bletchley Park, UK, >where Colossus was used, knew what the machine was. Until the early sixties, where two were in use at GCHQ. The original colossus, built from GPO telephone parts was disassembled after the war and replaced in GPO stores. Colossus has been common knowledge since 1972, and there are hundreds of interviews from people who built, operated and worked around Bletchley Park at the time. The Bletchley park museum is currently sponsoring a rebuild of the original colossus from those interviews, sketches and remembered plans since Winnie ordered them destroyed after the war, no doubt fearing for the huge business that Enigma presented to the third world countries we sold the machine to. We did neglect to mention that we'd broken the code in the early years of WWII, and that wasn't revealed until 1979, as I recall. >The only >documents that could identify the machine and its codes were >top secret from WWII until 1997. And that was just NSA material. I obviously channeled that information then. >There is your parallel from a recent article in the New Scientist that >I just to happened to read this week. Okay, lets treat that as a parallel. That leaves just two years, given a like secrecy, until we find thousands of documents dumped on the doorstep referring to Roswell? Or are we saying that they shredded everything? How about if it doesn't exist? >Ask Gersten. I was asking you. >If you stop using the word 'tad'- I don't have a clue - >perhaps you would be more coherent. American slang - 'tad' means a small amount. >Secrecy is compartmentalized. And the GAO don't know this? >Why don't you go back to the Roman Empire to base your claims. I don't have to. I have a documents dating to the sixties that relate to this department existing, although I find intelligence from all eras interesting due to the evolution of ideas. I take it you don't, and think it unecessary baggage to include history in a discussion? >Elizabeth I who ruled England in the 17th Century. Sixteenth, Henny. She died in 1603. >Readers are just as much uninformed about Queen Cleopatra's >intrigues with Mark Antony Another intriguing time, but she shouldn't have annoyed Herod. >That's what I meant with DI meaning >'Devoid of Information'. Then maybe you should be a bit more clear in your assertations. I thought you were just insulting me rather than providing a considered, reasoned point. How wrong could I be? >Hugs. Liebe und Licht, James A Diss ---------------------- HEALTH WARNING: Care Should Be Taken When Lifting This Product, Since Its Mass, and Thus Its Weight, Is Dependent on Its Velocity Relative to the User. --------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 29 Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B&B Affair From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:31:43 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:26:11 -0400 Subject: Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B&B Affair > Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:10:35 -0500 (CDT) > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B&B Affair > >From: EdKomarek@aol.com > >Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:03:16 -0400 (EDT) > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B&B Affair > England. It's called "UFO 1947-1997: Fifty Years of Flying Saucers." > I was personally responsible for the soliciting and editing of essays by > such well known debunkers and government agents as Jacques Vallee, Jan > Aldrich, Jerry Clark, Michael Swords, Chris Rutkowski, Jim Moseley, Patrick > Huyghe, Raymond Fowler and others. I also had an article lined up by Budd Oh, great! You blew my cover, Dennis! Honestly! Now I'll have to get my MJ-13 clearance reassessed and I'll get reassigned to some bottom-shelf desk job in Gulf Breeze or on comet tracking detail! Rats! Until now, no one suspected me! -- Chris Rutkowski - rutkows@cc.umanitoba.ca (and now, also: Chris.Rutkowski@UMAlumni.mb.ca) University of Manitoba - Winnipeg, Canada Search for other documents from or mentioning: rutkows | dstacy |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 29 Re: Mogul Balloons and Weather Balloons From: David <furry@nobelmed.com> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:38:48 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:21:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Mogul Balloons and Weather Balloons It's with interest that I've been watching some of the discussion on the various "Weather Balloon" and "Mogul Balloon" theories being discussed here on the base........The various discussion about composition of balloons and the relative implementation of these new materials has been fascinating as well. In all seriousness, I'm NOT being facetious about that. However, I do have some questions about the Roswell incident being a Balloon of ANY nature...... >From what I've read and understand, the item that "crashed" in or near Roswell, left a GOUGE in the earth and scattered debris along a large area of the ground. UNLESS a balloon EXPLODES, I do NOT see how it is POSSIBLE to be the item that crashed at Roswell. Now, it is common knowledge that either helium or warmed air were used in any balloons outside of GERMANY.....therefore no combustible materials to explode. Oh and if it did explode HIGH in the air, due to pressure, then the fall to earth still would NOT have scattered debris over the ground. More often then not, a balloon that lost air; would float lazily to earth and be rather INTACT. Ask any of the World War ONE pilots that shot down balloons WITHOUT using explosive ammo......on more then one occassion they watched the thing SLOWLY sink down to the ground.....Using Explosive ammo would cause the HYDROGEN that the Germans were using to EXPLODE and much more drastic things would then happen....<grin>... So, my question is......IF the item crashed, had the WEIGHT to gouge the earth and SCATTER debris, can ANYONE explain how a BALLOON could POSSIBLY do this? Dave (Furry) Furlotte
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 29 Re: Flatland From: IEVANS@derwent.co.uk [Ifor Evans] Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:13:15 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:19:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Flatland >Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:20:55 -0400 >To: updates@globalserve.net >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Flatland Brian, >I thought it might be interesting to forward to the list an >observation by a friend at NASA/Huntsville (Marshall Spaceflight >Center), who recently speculated on why UFOs are observed to >change shape. >> Hey Brian, >> Don't know why it's taken me so long to think of this, but ufo's >> popping from place to place and changing shape could indicate >> they are entering our 4-D continuum from some higher-dimensional >> 'embedding space.' This would be like the situation in the old >> book 'Flatland' where 3-D beings enter, or penetrate, a 2-D world. >> For example, when a sphere crosses through a 2-D world, the 2-D >> inhabitants see first a point, then a circle which rapidly grows >> in size, reaches a maximum, then shrinks to a point and disappears. >> A sphere bouncing on the 2-D space would look like a point jumping >> from place to place. A brick or other 3-D shape rotating through >> the plane would look like a constantly changing shape. A fork >> passing through the plane would start as separate points which >> would grow to ovals then they'd coalesce into one shape, only to >> disappear later. Could the ufo's, or at least some of them, be >> penetrations of our 4-D continuum by higher-dimensional things? >> Perhaps from the 'hyperspace' in which our universe is embedded? >> I dunno... This is a really great idea. Only the cross section of the sphere passing through the plane of the 2-D world would appear to grow from a point to a line equal in length to the diameter of the sphere and then shrink back to point before disappearing as the sphere passed completely through the 2-D plane. Remember The inhabitants of Flatland can only look along the 2-D plane and would therefore only see the edge of any object protruding into their domain. If you read the book Flatland (very interesting) the author Mr A. Square explains one possible method that the inhabitants could use to distinuguish between, for example, squares and circles which would both appear as straight lines to Flatland natives. Ifor PS If anybody is interested in the method they use EMAIL me and I will explain.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 29 Re: 'Mogul' Balloon Question From: DRudiak@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:41:29 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:25:29 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Mogul' Balloon Question >Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:27:40 -0700 >From: Scott Hale <shale@megalinx.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Quick Mogul Question > According to the Air Force, were the Mogul balloons equipped with >Rawin radar targets or a different type of target? According to Mogul official records, of all the balloons listed in June and July 1947, only Mogul #8 is clearly shown as being tracked by radar. Mogul engineer Charles Moore vaguely remembers that he strung several Rawin radar targets on Flight #4, the alleged crash object. He thinks he did this because the original plan was to track the balloons by radar, but for some reason, the radar tracking was poor. Therefore he put more reflectors on, but the tracking was still poor. But Mogul scientist Albert Crary's diary has the only recorded mention of this flight, and there is nothing noted about an radar array on this flight, only a radiosonde, which Moore didn't remember. It was also Moore's vague memory that at this point they more or less gave up on radar tracking and went to visual and radiosonde tracking. Moore's log for Flight #5 the next day has no indication of any radar tracking taking place, only visual and radiosonde. Also the schematic diagram for this flight shows a radiosonde but no radar reflectors. But Curiously, Crary's diary DOES specifically mention radar arrays on this flight, unlike Flight #4. In short, the whole issue of whether Flight #4 carried any radar reflectors is muddled at best. There is no documentation to support it. It all comes down to Moore's memory, and even he admits not having a clear memory of this flight. Flight #5 is notable for another reason. It passed directly over Roswell base while descending (it's altitude at the time was only about 25,000 feet above the base). It thus blatantly intruded into a sensitive air space (Roswell was the only atomic bomber base) and also posed a potential hazard to navigation. It finally crashed about 15 miles away, due east of Roswell. However Moore staunchly maintains that Roswell base had no knowledge of any of these balloons. I find this very hard to believe under the circumstances. It also contradicts the fact, also mentioned by Moore, and documented in the Air Force Report on Roswell, that the civilian CAA had been notified of the balloon project as early as March 20, 1947 because it posed a potential hazard to air navigation. Several hearings were held before approval was granted. Mogul Technical Report No. 1, dated April 1, 1948, again noted that the CAA had been informed and that guidelines had been established as to when to launch to ensure air safety. One requirement was that the weather be reasonably clear so that the balloons could be seen visually. Curiously Mogul violated this very guideline in launching Flight #4. Crary's diary noted that the regularly planned flight had been scrubbed because of cloudy weather, but Moore says they went ahead and launched the balloons anyway to test out the equipment. More importantly, however, is the next statement of guidelines in the Mogul Technical Report. It says, "Notices to airmen are to be issued if the balloon is descending within designated regions of dense air traffic." So what have we here? Mogul #5 was descending in a region of dense air traffic when it passed over Roswell base the following day. Yet we are to believe that again the Mogul people violated their own guidelines and failed to notice the base of this very important event. If a plane had hit the balloon and crashed as a result there would have been hell to pay. In my opinion, at least a few people in command at Roswell base would have been notified about the Mogul flights, just like the CAA was, and pilots would have been apprised of any balloons in the area. This certainly would have been true of Flight #5, and probably Flight #11A, which crashed only 17 miles due west of the base on July 7. But we are supposed to believe that Roswell base knew absolutely nothing about these ballons, and this somehow caused them to misidentify tin foil and balsa wood as coming from a flying saucer. Yeah, right!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 29 Raelian Movement Meeting 5/28/97 From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:36:41 GMT Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:27:12 -0400 Subject: Raelian Movement Meeting 5/28/97 Sisters and brothers, explorer's all. I wish to share with you an experience I had this evening. Many of you out there are somewhat familiar with the Raelian Movement I'm sure. Well I attended a meeting they had this evening at the New Yorker Hotel, conviently located next to WBAI radio, where I produce UFO Desk. Please allow me to share some of what was said at this meeting along with some of my own humble ideas. Firstly I must say that it was a professional presentation. The program started off with a beautiful video of life on this planet. Principally a lovely black bird, species unknown to this writer, as it was performing it's mating ritual, there was another video with a lovely young woman, explaining the Raelian idea of how this planet was the labortory of a race of beings the Raelians called the Elohim, please note, that Elohim is plural. A point that was made several times during the approxamately two hour event. It seems these Elohim were very much into genetic manipulation. From what the video shared these Elohim were doing this work on their home planet, but seem to have run into some kind of problems with their people not wanting that work being done on their home world. So the sciencetist among them took off in their vehicals to find a planetary lab to carry out their ideas. Guess where they landed, right here on your, our home world. When they arrived the world was covered with water, yet there was no life. The Elohim had found the perfect petrie dish. Let me make a million year story short, we are the result of their work. Humans are the children and Elohim are the creators. Remember "let us make man in our image", okay, now we know, where we come from. This revelation was given to Rael, christan name not mentioned, back in 1973, when he was a journalist. According to the story, he was summoned to a place and a ship landed. He met with the Elohim, and they took him for six days on a trip to their home world and told him about the grand plan for humanity. No, this is not Geo. Adamski going to Venus. The home world of the Elohim was not mentioned, but perhaps it's in the book Rael wrote as a result of this alledged trip. Enough background, do with it what you may, as well as with the rest of this event you are reading about. The stated purpose of the RM is to build an embassy for the returning Elohim. They are coming and want to help us. Of course humans do not have to accept their help, so we were told. This embassy is to located in New Jerusalem. The world according to the RM, several ideas were expressed, all of which I thought were right on time. Tolerance of each other is not enough, we must as a race of humans learn to accept each other from the heart. Genetic diversity is good for the planet, Rael in his talk said that differences is what makes life on this planet so wonderful. He's right of course, arguement there. The army's of the world must be dismantled, violence and threats of violence must be done away with. During the video it was mentioned that threats of violence must be punished, as threats predicate actual violence. Method or mode of punishment was not mentioned. Personally I don't see punishment without violence or deprivation of some sort, but perhaps that's my limited view. The worlds army's must be eliminated. Not a bad idea, utopian in fact, RM call's for a World Government, of elected geniuses(that leaves your bad spelling writer, as well as slick Willy, out of the running.)These brainy folks will run the world to the benifit of all. Do I perceive a snicker out there? These are not bad ideas, perhaps a little nieve, but not bad. Where will these brain trust come from? Not mentioned, perhps again it's in the book. They also talked about cloning, seems the RM feels that cloning is a good thing. According to a fax their press person, Marie Helen, who BTW, is one hell of a beautiful person, RM has set up a cloning company, called Clonaid. I don't have the fax in front of me, but if there's interest in this let me know, I'll copy it and put out for all to check out. RM as mentioned is big on cloning, and that was another contridiction that was apparent at least to me. Rael spoke of genetic diversity, this happens naturally in the world. Cloning flys in the face of genetic diversity. Also mentioned was something about putting clones of certain people, on space ships to orbit until we needed to make a copy of that person. Of course the question begs, who gets cloned? At close to a quarter of a million bucks to get cloned, you and I know who will get cloned, and I don't think it was anyone in the crowd that was at tonights meeting. Rael said that the Elohim were more than gods, that the RM is about a new spirituality, a idea of not just believing but understanding, and of science. Also, it was mentioned several times that the RM is not out to convince anyone of anything. RM wants people to believe as they will, feel free. Before I forget, feeling is a biggie. For several years I was in AA, and getting to one's true feelings is part of their program. But one is also admonished that feelings are not facts. Also Rael mentioned that back in the time of Jesus, there was no science. That for me was a fundimental error. I guess he's not familiar with any of the work done around the studies and diggings in Sumeria, Babylonia, Persia, Turkey, and many other places. Not to mentione the work of Z. Sitchen. It's apparent that the ancients had a knowledge of secience that surpassed the science of Europeans of five hundred years ago. Not to mention a complicated cosmology, that included not only all nine planets, but they were aware that the world was a globe, they also sorted the world into the thirty degree longitude lines, almost five thousand years before the Greeks got the notion. Rael is a skillful speaker, he's friendly, and seems genuine. He introduced his staff, a coupla of artist, a sciencetist, a TV producer, and a few others. The Raelians are a beautiful bunch of people, physically speaking. This being summer and my forty six year old hormons in a rage, could not help eye the very attractive women attending the event. Oh well, that's me, just human I guess. It was also mentioned in their video that RM frowned on drinking, smoking and drugging. Damn, just when I started consuming beer and smokes after a six year absence. Rael will be a guest on UFO Desk in the future, probably in August. It will be a live show, and listener phone calls will be invited. WBAI is heard in the tri state NY area, hope you can catch it. I'll send a notice via the usual electronic methods when I know it's gonna happen. Finally, my feelings, nice people, nice ideas, problems with alot of what was said and what was not said. But as they say in AA, more will be revealed. That's it, hope this helps. From the big apple, land of King Rudy. With love Paul Williams Producer, UFO Desk WBAI NY 99.5 FM www.escape.com/~paulw/ufodesk.html PS. For New Yorkers, hope your aware of the threat to rent control. If you rent in New York, your domicle is being threatened by an upstate creep named Bruno, he's in the NY state legislature. Please listen to WBAI 99.5 FM Housing Notebook Tuesday evenings at nine pm to stay informed as to how to protect rent control. Many of our homes depend on it. If your a home owner you may think this bullshit does not affect you. Wrong, I don't think you want to see more homeless people on the streets. Currently I'm working part time with a homeless organization. It's really sad to see mothers and kids showing up with no where to live. Damn the reasons, we've got to save and create more housing. That should be the priority of all thinking, caring people of good will. Bless you all. Please feel free to respond, all welcome to kick this around. It is not my intention to knock or berate anyone. I'm reporting what I heard, and my opinions are stated as my opinions only. The managemt is not responsible, yuk yuk. paul wms.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 29 IRC meetings with interesting people... From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 05:48:29 +0200 (MET DST) Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:28:36 -0400 Subject: IRC meetings with interesting people... At 14:16 28-05-97 -0400, you wrote: >Date: Wed, 28 May 97 20:16:40 PDT >From: DeGodfather <yam@netvision.net.il> >Subject: IRC meetings with interesting people... >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >To: UFO Updates <UpDates@Globalserve.net> >From: yechiel A. Mann <Yam@NetVision.Net.Il> >Date: 28th May, 1997. >Subject: IRC meetings with interesting people... >To all concerned, >i would like to inform everyone of meetings >scheduled in the UFO/ET related IRC (Internet >Relay Chat) channel #CSETI (on DALnet), with >certain people. > >First, on Thursday, June 5th, at 12:00 (NOON) >PST, we will have a meeting with the head of >CSETI, Dr. Steven M. Greer. CSETI members are >expected to be there as well. >Second, we've just scheduled a meeting with Norio >Hayakawa, on Saturday, June 7th, at the same time >as above. >Other interesting people should be there for the >occasions. i hope to see as many of you as possible >there as well. For those of you who don't have IRC, >a program can be downloaded from >http://www.mirc.co.uk > >If anyone has problems, for any reason, getting onto >IRC, you can contact me personally, and i will help. Nice idea, Yechiel. But I don't know how the link up with IRC. Can you explain? What happens after downloading from mirc.co.uk? __________________________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Leiden, The Netherlands \___________________________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 29 AUFORA: Bizarreness in Australian Outback From: David Watanabe <davew@aufora.org> Date: Wed, 28 May 97 23:01:09 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:29:32 -0400 Subject: AUFORA: Bizarreness in Australian Outback AUFORA News Update Wednesday, May 28th, 1997 http://www.aufora.org/ _________________________ NUCLEAR BLAST, EARTHQUAKE, METEORITE, OR OTHER? from University of Colorado at Boulder - http://www.colorado.edu/ At the request of a U.S. Senate subcommittee on investigations, a group of scientists has been analyzing a mysterious seismic event that took place in a remote part of southwest Australia on May 28, 1993. On that date, a group of aboriginal prospectors witnessed a radiant, star-like object traveling low across the horizon followed by a bright flash of light and a powerful explosion when the object disappeared behind a ridge. The terrorist group responsible for the March 20, 1995 poison gas attack in a Tokyo subway had attempted to enrich uranium near the epicenter of the mystery event, and Senate investigators feared the group was conducting nuclear tests in the area. Scientists examining the event are Christal B. Hennet and Gregory E. van der Vink of Incorporated Research Institutions for Seismology in New York, Danny Harvey of the University of Colorado at Boulder, and Christopher Chyba of the University of Arizona. Harvey is a research associate at the Joint Seismic Program Center in the CU-Boulder physics department. The researchers looked at factors such as location, depth and magnitude to distinguish between possible causes of the event, including an earthquake, a meteorite or an explosion. Their analysis ruled out a nuclear explosion and suggests an iron meteorite more than 3 meters in diameter may have been the cause of the mysterious blast. The group, which presented its findings at this week's meeting of the American Geophysical Union in Baltimore on May 28, used seismic data collected from various stations in Australia to analyze the event. Such a meteorite would have left a crater more than 90 meters in diameter, and the scientists are now attempting to define an area of impact so that a ground search can be undertaken. __________________________________________________________ AUFORA News Update News & Information from the world of UFOlogy AUFORA Web: http://www.aufora.org/ AUFORA News: http://www.aufora.org/news/ AUFORA Discussion: http://www.aufora.org/discuss/ ********************************************************** TO SUBSCRIBE: Send email to: majordomo@spots.ab.ca with "subscribe aufora" in the body of the message. TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send email to: majordomo@spots.ab.ca with "unsubscribe aufora" in the body of the message. Subscribe / unsubscribe requests not done following the above instructions will BE IGNORED!!! ********************************************************** Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of AUFORA __________________________________________________________ Distributed by the Alberta UFO Research Association __________________________________________________________ <a href="http://tigger.cyberloft.com/cgi-bin/AD/redirect.cgi?AD=0125"> <img width=120 height=60 src="http://tIgger.cyberloft.com/cgi-bin/AD/getimage.cgi?AD=0125" BORDER=1></a>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 29 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: DRudiak@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:07:27 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:23:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context Kevin Randle wrote about Kal Korff's new book on Roswell: >What "new" facts do you report in your book that haven't been >reported by someone else? Any one will do. Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. What's "new" is how he cleverly attacks and twists the testimony of the witnesses, sometimes beyond recognition, in order to destroy their credibility or the case for a crashed saucer. Here's an example: Walt Whitmore Jr, AKA Karl Pflock's "Reluctant." (pages 44 - 46) At first Korff correctly points out that Whitmore's testimony has changed drastically over the years to the point that he's now telling an almost contradictory story to his original one. But what Korff NEVER mentions is that Whitmore is now claiming to have seen something strongly resembling a balloon crash. In fact, that's why Pflock made such a big issue of his testimony in "Roswell in Perspective." So why isn't Korff equally estatic over what should be a great witness for his Mogul balloon? Well, first of all, Whitmore has drastically changed his story, but as we all know, that alone won't stop a debunker. (Their continued support of Sheridan Cavitt's flimsy, contradictory story is a good example.) No, what's really embarassing about Whitmore Jr. as a Mogul witness is that he claimed to have some of the original balloon debris tucked away in a safe place, but nobody has ever seen it. After four years, you think the man could produce this very ordinary material to back up his story. Korff mentions Whitmore's claim that he still has debris. But now get this! Korff insinuates that Whitmore is saying that he has SAUCER debris, not balloon debris! I kid you not. What Korff says is: "...Until Walt Whitmore Jr. comes forth with his professed collection of Roswell flying disc debris for science to examine, one should be 'reluctant' to accept his changing accounts as true." Now compare this to what Whitmore REALLY did say in Pflock's "Roswell in Perspective:" "Most of what I found was white, linen-like cloth with reflective tinfoil attached to one side. Some pieces were glued to balsa wood sticks, and some of them had glue on the cloth side, with bits of balsa still stuck to it. ... One of the larger pieces of foiled cloth .... had writing on the cloth side. Someone had used a pencil to do some figuring, arithmetic. There were no words, only numbers." "I collected some of the foiled cloth material, including the piece with the writing on it, and a few of the sticks, filling a large, 9 by 12, envelope with it....." Now the only part Korff quoted is what immediately followed: "...I still have the material I collected on the ranch site in July 1947. It is ... stored in a safe and secure place....." Does it sound here like Whitemore Jr. is saying he has flying disc debris? Quite clearly he was describing something of human origin, if he's telling the truth. But Whitmore has become something of an embarassment to the Mogul proponents, since he can't produce his tin foil and balsa sticks. So how does Korff deal with him? Why he simply lies, waves his magic wand, and changes him into some UFO nutball saying he has "flying disc" debris which he won't show anybody. Korff also butchers other parts of the Roswell story in his zeal to dispense with Whitmore Jr. Let's go through his description of what happened when Brazel came to town, since it's a good illustration of how Korff distorts the material: KORFF: "Whitmore states that he saw some of the debris that Mac Brazel had brought into town with him. The problem with this claim is that Whitmore has said he didn't see Mac Brazel until the EVENING, when his father brought Brazel home to stay with them..... This means that Whitmore Jr. didn't meet with Brazel until AFTER he had already been to Sheriff Wilcox's office and had met with Maj. Jesse Marcel .... who had been dispatched to the sheriff's department in order to examine some of the debris that Brazel had brought in. Thus, in order for Walt Whitmore Jr. to have seen ANY of the debris that Brazel had brought with him to show the authorities, Brazel must have neglected to turn over some fo the material to Major Marcel. Yet there is no evidence of this in any of the pro-UFO Roswell books." [cites Berlitz and Moore] COMMENTS: It would have been rather difficult for Brazel to have stayed at the Whitmores that night, since Berlitz and Moore also has Marcel testifying that Brazel took Cavitt and himself back to the ranch that evening. How did Korff screw that one up? Whitmore Jr. never specified in his original story where he had seen some of the material. He did say that by the time he got out to the crash site, the military had cleaned the entire area up (which was completely different from his recent story). If Whitmore Jr. did see some of the debris as described in his original story, then there are three possibilities. The most likely place would be he saw it at the Sheriff's office where Brazel allegedly took debris samples. Another is that Brazel handed out some samples to others before returning to the ranch with Marcel later that evening. The third possibility would be that Whitmore Jr. saw it the FOLLOWING evening when Brazel could have returned to Roswell and stayed at their house, and therefore possibly brought additional samples with him. But all of this is speculative and suspect. In any case, Korff invented a completely fallacious account of events in order to discredit Whitmore. Or maybe this hotshot investigator simply doesn't know any better. Also, what the "pro-UFO books" generally say is that that whatever debris remained at the Sheriff's office was later confiscated by a contingent from the base. Marcel had nothing to do with it. He was already gone. What Marcel DID say is that he first discussed the crash with Brazel at the Sheriff's office before returning to the base to confer with Col. Blanchard. Marcel mentioned nothing about even examining any debris at this point, much less confiscating it all and taking it back to the base, though other witnesses claim Brazel brought debris samples to the Sheriff's office which the Sheriff placed in his safe. This part of the story is very muddled. In any event, the alleged debris samples were then in the hands of a civilian authority, namely the Sheriff, who had the legal authority and obligation to retain them while he was investigating. At this point, Marcel had no authority to take any of the debris with him back to the base, though it's very conceivable he was given some at the Sheriff's discretion. KORFF: "There is no disputing the fact that when Brazel showed the debris to Marcel he did not know what it was from. Since Marcel, thought like Brazel, that the material might have indeed come from some sort of "flying disc," it is highly unlikely that Marcel would have let Brazel wonder off with some of the material." COMMENTS: First of all, I've never read in any of the Roswell accounts that Marcel said he was convinced that the material came from a flying disc at this point. Marcel simply said that he returned to the base to confer with Blanchard, and the two of them "determined that a downed aircraft of some unusual sort might be involved..." [Berlitz & Moore] In addition, Marcel said that he wanted Brazel to return with him to the base from the Sheriff's office, but Brazel refused saying he had errands to run, so Marcel arranged to meet with him later. Then he, Cavitt, and Brazel drove out to Brazel's ranch that evening to examine the debris field. Second of all, let me state the blatantly obvious again. Brazel and Sheriff Wilcox were CIVILIANS. Even if Marcel had been immediately convinced he had a flying saucer on his hands, he had no legal authority to compel either Brazel or Wilcox to cooperate. He certainly couldn't force either of them to turn over the debris. Brazel may not have even had the option at this point. Once he reported it to the Sheriff, Wilcox had the obligation of retaining physical evidence during his investigation until he could determine what had happened. At least some of the debris would have remained at the Sheriff's office. It is very unlikely it all would have been turned over to Marcel. Korff's reasoning abilities were really out to lunch on this one. KORFF: "Indeed, according to the pro-UFO Roswell researchers, Marcel took this material to Colonel Blanchard at Roswell Army Air Field." COMMENT: Once again, the statement that Brazel brought debris samples to the Sheriff's office comes from others, not Marcel, who curiously never mentioned anything about seeing them. Marcel only said he interviewed Brazel. There is no unanimity of opinion as to what happend. Some "pro-UFO Roswell researchers" have Marcel returning to the base with some of the debris while others have it remaining in the Sheriff's office and later being confiscated. The issue is very confused. But there is no evidence at all that Marcel took all of the debris samples back with him to the base, therebye making it impossible for Whitmore Jr. to have later seen debris at the Sheriff's office. In fact, common sense dictates that the Sheriff would have retained some as part of his mandated legal responsibility. So where does Korff come up with the statement that Marcel would have taken it all? Korff is again being very deceptive when he says such a scenario is the blanket opinion of "pro-UFO Roswell researchers." But Korff will apparently twist the evidence any which way he can to support an argument. So there you have it. This is Korff's thoroughly researched Roswell book, full of obvious factual errors, mistatements, and gross distortions. And this is just one witness and two pages of it. His propagandistic writing techniques that lead the unwitting reader to believe that Whitmore Jr. was claiming to still have flying saucer pieces is a real classic of deliberate misinformation. The irony here is that Korff was right about Whitmore Jr.'s testimony now being suspect because it has changed so much. Not being content to leave it at that, he tried to make it appear that Whitmore Jr. is currently a witness for the pro-crashed saucer camp. But he is really a questionable witness for the balloonies, which is apparently why Korff tries to disown him in such a blatantly dishonest fashion. Other examples will follow once I've had time to carefully read and study the book. One thing I'd like to point out right now is that Korff's charges against Marcel come entirely from an article by Robert Todd. That may tell us something about why Korff has yet to address my refutations of these attacks on Marcel, which I posted here several weeks ago. I said then that it sounded like Korff was parroting Robert Todd. Korff said wait until the book came out and then we could read for ourselves what he had to say about Marcel. Well, guess what? Korff is simply parroting Robert Todd, just like I said. In fact, Korff presents none of the arguments in his own words Instead he spends six pages of his book reprinting Todd's article in full. Todd's article alone is deemed "proof" that Marcel is a liar, and that's how he treats all of Marcel's testimony from then on. I see no evidence here of Korff having done any independent research or analysis of his own. The only evidence that Korff may have looked at Marcel's file is a photo of one page of a later evaluation of Marcel by Col. Blanchard. Blanchard wrote on this page, "A quiet, mature field grade officer. Exceptionally well qualified in his duty assignment. His only know weakness is an inclination to magnify problems he is confronted with. Superior moral qualities." What is Korff's spin on this? Korff lifts one ambiguous statement by Blanchard out of context (naturally). All he says about the entire evaluation is that "Marcel's tendency to exaggerate was specifically noted." Korff also says this was written "just after the Roswell incident," making it sound like Blanchard was referring specifically to this, but in REALITY the evaluation was dated TEN MONTHS LATER (May 6, 1948). So Blanchard could have been referring to anything, such as Marcel's tendency, noted in other evaluations, of being something of a perfectionist and apparently worrying too much about things being exactly right. The only other reference as to what Blanchard was discussing is on another page under the statement "Degree to which he is able to meet situations without emotional upset." Marcel was scored "7" on a scale of 1 to 10 (everything else were "8's" and "9's"). And on Blanchard's NEXT evaluation, just three months later, he gave Marcel an "8" on the same statement (high excellence instead of low excellence). If Marcel was allegedly prone to exaggerate (a serious fault for an intelligence officer), why wasn't Blanchard giving him "2's" and "3's"? There are many other statements about Marcel which contradict Korff's assertion that Marcel had a "tendency to exaggerate." Naturally Korff neglects to reprint the rest of Blanchards evaluation, or other evaluations which might lead the reader to a completely different conclusion than the one he wants them left with. For example, in the SAME evaluation on another page, under the statement "Degree to which he is able to discriminate and evaluate to arrive at logical conclusions," Blanchard rates Marcel "9," or "Superior." How does somebody do that if they have a "tendency to exaggerate?" Elsewhere under statements that most characterize the officer, Blanchard checks "Cool under all circumstances," "Businesslike," "No one ever doubts his ability," "Knows his job and performs it well," "The men know they can rely on judgment," "Admiration of men and officers alike." And of course Blanchard's personal comments, "Exceptionally well qualified" and "Superior moral qualities." Again, do these sound like descriptions of someone allegedly prone to lie and exaggerate, thus blowing up tin foil and balsa wood into a flying saucer? Of course, Korff doesn't present this, which in all fairness he should. But this book isn't about a balanced presentation of the Roswell evidence or fair treatment of the witnesses. It is nothing but propaganda and debunkery in its rawest form.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 29 WW Media Alert 970528 From: BufoCalvin@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:47:58 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:20:27 -0400 Subject: WW Media Alert 970528 Bufo Calvin, P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com 510-432-8102 (voice, fax, and recorded messages) TAP (The Address Project) NEARU (National Events by Area Registry of the Unexplained) Bufo's WEIRD WORLD (paper and electronic newsletter) ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert for non-commercial purposes) May 28, 1997 This one will be early, but brief. I'm off to Seattle on vacation for a few days...if anybody has any travel tips, e-mail by Thursday morning. After that, I will be off-line until Sunday evening. Oh, thank you to everybody who is sending in their votes for "the most significant UFO event of the past 50 years". I will keep taking them for about two more weeks, I'd say, but don't wait until the last minute. So far, the 1952 Washington flap leads the way. FICTIONAL NOTES: This is where I briefly cover items which are fictional but which I feel are worth mentioning, either because of the impact they have had on the field or vice versa. I don't list weekly shows, just special items. If you want info on the weekly fictional shows, see Rebecca Keith�s excellent CNI NEWS MEDIA WATCH at http://www.cninews.com. Tuesday at Midnight on Fox, they run the MISSING HOURS episode of MIAMI VICE...was a character on the show abducted by aliens? An expert thinks so. CLARISSA EXPLAINS IT ALL about UFOs from a teen perspective on Nickelodeon on Tuesday at 6:00 PM. THE JOKER'S FLYING SAUCER abducts Batgirl on Fox on Friday at 7:30 AM. NIGHT STAND, the talk show parody, runs an episode about alien pregnancyon Thursday at 7:30 PM and 10:30 PM on Friday..it's called UFO MOTHER SHOW. MAGIC IN THE WATER, the Mark Harmon lake monster movie, runs Tuesday at 9:15 AM and 6:10 PM on Showtime. GORGO is a sea monster taken to London, but wait'll you see who rescues him, on AMERICAN MOVIE CLASSICS on Saturday at 10:00 Am. BOOKS* CONFERENCES, LECTURES, ETC. NOTE: THE FOLLOWING NOTICE HAS BEEN PRESENTED WITHOUT EDITING BY ME, AND REPRESENTS THEIR OWN OPINIONS. IT IS NOT A PAID AD. June 7, 7pm: Sophia Center on Marylhurst Campus, Portland Oregon. Return engagement: ilyes will be offering an update CropCircle slide Presentation, which will include the '97s we've received to-date. The stunning and controversial *Oliver's Castle video footage* (seen on Sightings and Strange Universe) will also be shown. Contact Cindy at 503/ 636-0528 for particulars. MAGAZINES, NEWSLETTERS, PERIODICALS, ETC. I received my copy of UFO REALITY today, but too late to summarize it: will do next week. ONLINE OMNI MAGAZINE (http://www.omnimag.com) is back to do real time conferences. The regular night for our kind of stuff is Tuesday 7:00 PM to 8:00 PM Pacific. They didn't list ahead, this week, that I could see. RADIO AND TELEVISION SYNDICATED RADIO: END OF THE LINE is now SIGHTINGS ON THE RADIO. This has resulted, among other things, in a new website: http://www.sightings.com. Next week's guests not known as I write this, but you can check the website on Monday. It can also be heard on your computer. Airtimes: M-F 6-8 PM Pacific (times given here are generally Pacific),. Sunday 8-11 PM Pacific SYNDICATED TV: COULD IT BE A MIRACLE? No details available at this time. PSI-FACTOR (see http://www.psifactor.com for stations and airdates and other info). This series is supposedly based on real cases. --week of May 26, INFESTATION (NASA scientists killed while working on a meteorite landing site); HUMAN APPORTATION (Mom and daughter teleport from California to Canada) --week of June 2, THE UNDERNEATH (mutant stalks the sewers!); PHANTOM LIMB (farmer loses arm, gains mysterious powers) Saturday, May 31 RADIO: THE EDGE OF REALITY, 5:00 PM -8:00 PM Pacific. Also available on Satcom C5, Transponder 23, SEDAT Channel 24. The specific spots have to be considered tentative, and the station in your area may run it tape-delayed. 2:00 PM, THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: ANCIENT WISDOM (well, if you call modern technology "wise"... :) ) Sunday, June 1 SYNDICATED RADIO, 7:00 PM, ART BELL'S DREAMLAND: (see http://www.artbell.com for stations and program info) Art interviews Stanton Friedman, nuclear physicist and UFO expert, author of a number of books*. LOCAL TELEVISION, KING COUNTY WASHINGTON, CHANNEL 29, 7:00 PM: JOURNEY: 11:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, SIGHTINGS (#5062): Heartland ghost; UFOs disbabling missiles?; the supposed Face on Mars; crop circles; Nostradamus 12:00 PM, THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: 2:00 PM, A&E, THE UNEXPLAINED: NOAH'S FLOOD 4:00 PM, A&E, ANCIENT MYSTERIES WITH LEONARD NIMORY, THE LOCH NESS MONSTER (will cover the claim that the 1934 "Surgeon's Photograph" was a hoax...this claim was hearsay and not very logical, but got a lot of play...btw, my understanding is that the "surgeon" was a gynecologist, but they didn't want to say that in 1934) 4:00 PM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, SIGHTINGS (#5062): Heartland ghost; UFOs disbabling missiles?; the supposed Face on Mars; crop circles; Nostradamus 7:00 PM, FOX, BEYOND BELIEF: new series...presents "real" paranormal cases, and phony ones, and you get to guess which ones are which 11:00 PM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, SIGHTINGS (#5062): Heartland ghost; UFOs disbabling missiles?; the supposed Face on Mars; crop circles; Nostradamus Monday, June 2 SYNDICATED TV, MONDAY, STRANGE UNIVERSE: SHAMAN VS. SCHOOL BOARD(see website at http://www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse for stations and playtimes in your area.) LOCAL TELEVISION, SNOHOMISH COUNTY, WASHINGTON, 3:00 PM: JOURNEY: Brenda Roberts produces. 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC, AND MIRACLES (#48): no details available Tuesday, June 3 SYNDICATED TV, TUESDAY, GERALDO RIVERA: UFOs SYNDICATED TV, TUESDAY, MONTEL WILLIAMS: Psychic Sylvia Browne SYNDICATED TV, TUESDAY, STRANGE UNIVERSE: sightings of the Virgin Mary (see website at http://www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse for stations and playtimes in your area) 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC AND MIRACLES (#49): no details available Wednesday, June 4 SYNDICATED TV, WEDNESDAY, STRANGE UNIVERSE: BRUSH WITH DEATH: the art of Dr. Jack Kevorkian(see website at http://www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse for stations and playtimes in your area) 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC, AND MIRACLES (#50): no details available 7:00 PM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, SIGHTINGS (#5065) Probably a new episode (see website at http://www.scifi.com/sightings after Tuesday) 11:00 PM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, SIGHTINGS (#5065) Probably a new episode (see website at http://www.scifi.com/sightings after Tuesday) Thursday, June 5 SYNDICATED TV, THURSDAY, STRANGE UNIVERSE: FACE IN THE WINDOW: the sounds like the video investigated by John Carpenter, which supposedly shows an alien looking in the window (see website at http://www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse for stations and playtimes in your area) 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MAGIC, MYSTERIES AND MIRACLES: preempted today 6:00 PM, ANCIENT MYSTERIES WITH LEONARD NIMOY: CURSE OF THE GODDESS PELE (Hawaiian volcano goddess) 7:00 PM, A&E, THE UNEXPLAINED: SECRETS OF KARNAK (an Egyptian shrine) 9:00 PM, THE DISCOVER CHANNEL, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: FALLING PHENOMENA (strange things that fall out of the sky, like fish...happens more often than you would think) 10:00 PM, ANCIENT MYSTERIES WITH LEONARD NIMOY: CURSE OF THE GODDESS PELE (Hawaiian volcano goddess) 11:00 PM, A&E, THE UNEXPLAINED: SECRETS OF KARNAK (an Egyptian shrine) Friday, June 6 LOCAL RADIO, 8:00 PM (Pacific Time) WGBB 1240 AM, New York: THE JOYCE KELLER SHOW: the host is a psychic who helps callers. Phone number is 516-955-1240 SYNDICATED TV, FRIDAY, STRANGE UNIVERSE: (see website at http://www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse for stations and playtimes in your area) 12:00 AM, THE DISCOVER CHANNEL, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: FALLING PHENOMENA (things that fall out of the sky, like fish...happens more often than you would think) 10:00 AM, THE SCI-FI CHANNEL, MYSTERIES, MAGIC AND MIRACLES (#51): no details available 5:00 PM, THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL, TRAVELERS: HAUNTED HAPPENINGS IN SALEM, MASSACHUSETTS 8:00 PM, NBC, UNSOLVED MYSTERIES: This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!" ____________________________ *Want books on these topics over the Internet? Go to http://www.strangemag.com OR You can order books by calling 1-800-905-8367 (615-896-1356 outside the USA). PLEASE TELL THEM BUFO SENT YOU. This is not a paid ad, but if you order something and identify me, I get something. Anything I get will go towards my work in this field. STRANGE Magazine is edited by Mark Chorvinsky. Greenleaf is operated by Marc Davenport and Leah Haley. ------------------------------------------------- **OPUS is the Organization for Paranormal Understanding and Support. I am an Executive Boardmember, and Director of the OPUS Educational Institute. OPUS encourages its officers and Network Associates to express their own opinions: however, it is important to note that I do not speak for OPUS in this piece or others presented under my own name. For more information on OPUS, call toll-free 1-888-999-OPUS. __________________________________________________ You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com. You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to Bufo's WEIRD WORLD (which covers theories and happenings) the same way. Also, please let me know if there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, the week before.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 29 Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #140 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:20:14 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:45:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #140 Apology to MW #140 (For May 29, 1997) Where is that spot in a world held dear? A spot that is loaded with potential, unfeared? A spot that is fecund, untrammeled, and graceful. A spot in my mind that refutes the distasteful. I swim in your lake of an opposite feeling. A self absorbed lake that is petulance squealing. The water is cold, with but few warming currents, Where whirlpools rule with elitist concurrence. Awash in this pool of the old party line I stumble, and freak with the rest in the brine It=92s salty this lake, with the sweat of stressed billions. Those who dung cook, so the few can have millions. I=92m not calling the capitalist, or the one who has better A skunk, or a thief, or in-validly lettered! It=92s good to be rich =96 we=92re honed in drive to it! But make folks pay dear, mind . . . we find that you blew it! =20 Look at Ben & Jerry who have made it work more right. Or the boss who gives some back when we=92ve fought a valid fight! These are folk knowing they don=92t have a thing, But what workers below them have with them to bring! Above all floats gently a washboard of cloud, Which sounds a low song for both meek, and what=92s proud. It=92s music to all; just a sigh of the earth, That will reconcile _somehow_ the fate of man=92s birth. So what will we gain if we left our salt water? Why, we crawl out on land, and toss off the old halter! With Moslem on one side, and Jew on the other We=92re neighbors and friends, co-protectors, and brothers. And what of the sisters that crawled out before men folk? Well, we honor their courage =96 the past was a sick joke. They are half of the team, by me the best half. And I=92m blowing no smoke, parting wheat from the chaff. CNN smirked with their journalistic bimbo That hundreds in AZ saw balloons out their window. They were _so_ tongue and cheek , and painted it ludicrous, Uncaring, but, afraid, self serving =96 incurious. I=92ve seen the film they don=92t show on TV! It was running (unwatched?) at a conference for free!=20 It ducked into clouds, below roofs, behind buildings! This hard motion picture was consistently thrilling! Why don=92t they show all the good stuff on television? Because next comes accounting from crass inquisition!=20 And what a fine inquest it would make =96 it could be! To drain the pus pockets of Roswell, or Kennedy! There=92s someone who knows what the past has been hiding,=20 Buried in landfills they wouldn=92t confide in. It matters not your kids getting cancer; They=92ve found their true happiness; they=92ve found all their answers! They write it off, puling, that effects on the people Would freak harmless folks, and rock hard on their steeples! But they=92re the ones freaked because *people* survive! Though _they_ lose advantage, plus what they contrive! But I=92m safe, for the moment, in a spot that I=92ve found. It=92s the place where I study, and read the profound. It=92s found in the text book you probably sold back; The facts of real history. The forbidden books =96 Jack! Lehmberg@snowhill.com Oh yeah! There are forbidden books, and papers =96 books and papers you=92ve seen bandied about here, some of them. Books that talk about the . . . . . : : -- ~ way back ~ --: : . .=20 . . . stuff, and you can SEE Christianity, and Islam, tiny twigs sprouting from what came before. These books are forbidden because they make for uncomfortable reading. You find yourself checking the roots of your own obsessions =96 some of them (many of them) come up with little "tilt" signs, flashing the electronic graphemes "Game Over."=20 Ever listen to fundamentalist Christians talk about UFO=92s? They=92re _not_ a good thing with the bible brandishing crowd. They don=92t like =91em . . . not one bit . Ever wonder why that _is_! What _is_ the true sin of the Giants that walked the earth =96 they saw the "daughters of men and found them fair"? Or maybe they thought the men themselves were getting a raw (insane giggle at the understatement) deal, and threw in with them, incurring the rage of those they had betrayed. Dominion means stewardship, not slumlord, and Lot=92s wife was turned into a pillar of _mist_, not salt. What else did King James, and tradition, get wrong? What do _you_ have wrong? And what have I? --=20 "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake for reading the forbiddon books. =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1= =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1= =B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1=B1 Government or Social Harassment REPORT - Presently, "ZERO" HARASSMENT
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 29 Mogul and Weather Balloons, Faith and Credibility From: "Serge Salvaille" <sergesa@connectmmic.net> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:03:56 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:51:36 -0400 Subject: Mogul and Weather Balloons, Faith and Credibility The discussion about Mogul balloons and weather balloons has a familiar tone: trying to have a camel pass through the eye of a needle. First, we had Weather Balloon explanation. The later theory had its advocates and 'scientic authorities' to back it up. Then the US Government came up with the Mogul explanation. Guess what: the same advocates and 'scientific authorities' back it up with the same determination. Let's bet that if at some point in time the US Government comes up with a Bazooka Bubble Gum explanation about Roswell, the same advocates and 'scientific authorities' will follow the gospel with the same contempt, shrugging away the 'naive believers' of a more down-to-earth explanation: the extraterrestrial one. What we have here is reverse science and loss of credibility.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 29 Re: Bizarreness in Australian Outback From: rossdowe <rossdowe@netlink.net.au> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:45:57 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:47:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Bizarreness in Australian Outback RE:Bizarreness in Australian Outback Dear AUFORA, RE Mystery in Australian Outback. We have found the following "Mystery in Australian Outback" story on http://www.aufora.org/news/16.html. WE are surprised that there is no reference to MR Harry Mason in matter. Please note that much of the data/information is copyright and as MR Mason is the scientist who researched these W.A.events YOU SHOULD ALWAYS GIVE HIS NAME TO IT. Without MR Harry Mason's study you would never have been able to place your names to his work. Secondly much of the data sent to Mr Mason has been delivered from IPP (ourselves) and we note your current actions. For your interest it appears that there have been 6 other events around Australia also. Ross Dowe International Peacemaker Project Mr H. Mason orbitx@ois.com.au. Ross Dowe rossdowe@netlink.net.au http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/1177/INDEX.HTM
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B & B Affair From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:12:52 -0400 Subject: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B & B Affair >Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:10:35 -0500 (CDT) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B&B >Affair >But you don't CARE if the story is true or not, Ed, because to >you it's all >just dirty MUFON laundry. So why check, why ask for names >and confirmation, >when you can just spread rumor and innuendo, most of which >MUFON has no >adequate way of addressing because we can never be sure that >everyone you >personally polluted will see our response. It's an old tactic, >Ed, and it >has nothing to do with an honest difference of opinion or >public forum, but >everything to do with a tar brush. You're one of the best at >that, Ed, so >keep it up. >To reiterate: MUFON has absolutely no knowledge whatsoever >of any kind of an >"attack" aimed at disrupting an abduction conference >anywhere in Texas. We >would never condone such activity. If it can be demonstrated >that such an >experience occurred and that someone or ones who >perpetrated it were in >anyway associated with MUFON, we will immediately issue a >public apology, >condemn any such activity, and disassociate ourselves with >those individuals >involved. As far as we are concerned, the only place this >event ever >occurred is in the fertile mind of Ed Komarek. You have slung so much mud Dennis that I will have to address your attacks piece by piece and post by post. Lets start with this false statement that the only place this event occurred was in the fertile mind of Ed Komarek. I think it best to attach the post in question from ORTK BULLETIN #26 below to refresh every bodies memory. As can be seen the post is by BB Rider who is a real person who I have been corresponding with. I simply published his concerns because he was not getting answers and hoped that Mufon could help clear things up rather than open a wide open attack on me personally. Since you have made so much fuss over this one item in the Bulletin # 26 it has got me curious and I will of course be investigating further. Perhaps you would like to explain to the readers why you chose to attack me with your poison pen rather than BB Rider who made the post? Have you even contacted BB Rider and discussed this issue with him? You have been so hostile I doubt he would even want to talk to you now! _______________________________________________ WHATS WITH MUFON? (Editors note perhaps mufonhq can explain.) Subj: MUFON's Purpose Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 5:51 PM EDT From: bbryder@bga.com X-From: bbryder@bga.com (BB Ryder) Reply-to: bbryder@bga.com To: EdKomarek@aol.com What is MUFON really? Some friends of mine own a Bed & Breakfast Inn located in the Texas hill country. They host weekend events involving such topics as psychic phenomena, past life regressions, UFO sightings, Alien Abductions, etc. These events feature world-class researchers, writers and speakers. Interested people are invited and usually stay at the Inn during the seminar. In an attempt to generate more participation in the events, my friends telephone people on their mailing list as well as any other groups and people who might be interested. One such weekend event was to be on the subject of Alien Abductions. The guest speakers and several abductees were available and ready. My friends telephoned MUFON as well as others, informing them of the upcoming event. MUFON responded that it was the worst idea they have ever heard and under no circumstances would they attend or be involved in any way, PERIOD, PARAGRAPH! This particular seminar had to be cancelled for some reason and was re-scheduled for another time. MUFON was not informed of the schedule change because of their lack of interest and outright hostility. It was completely understood that they would not be attending. Another unrelated seminar was scheduled for the weekend which was formerly going to be the Alien Abduction seminar. During the middle of the unrelated-to-abduction seminar, several people burst in and began taking pictures with flashbulbs going off while shouting, "We know who you are!", and "We've got your picture!", and other such intimidating shouts. When the ruckus died down some, my friends found out that the intruders were from MUFON. They had parked their cars far away to avoid having their approach being detected. They were a little embarrassed when they discovered they had burst in on the wrong seminar. They left with their shoulders quite a bit lower than when they arrived. The people from MUFON had no explanation. We can only guess why they acted the way they did. Perhaps they want to be the leader, or the ONLY ones involved with such subjects? Maybe they're really a disinformation organization like Project Bluebook and want to discredit and intimidate real abductees? I think a legitimate group would have been interested in any new information and in such an interesting event or would have offered an explanation. If anyone knows what MUFON was up to regarding the abductee event, or if anyone has any theories, please let us know. We would be interested in hearing the theories from prior as well as present MUFON members. BB Ryder & group Search for other documents from or mentioning: edkomarek | dstacy |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 Re: Re: Mogul Balloons and Weather Balloons From: bhamilto@pcshs.com Date: Thu, 29 May 97 08:21:03 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:06:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Re: Mogul Balloons and Weather Balloons >Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:38:48 -0400 >To: Updates@globalserve.net >From: David <furry@nobelmed.com> >Subject: Mogul Balloons and Weather Balloons >It's with interest that I've been watching some of the discussion on the >various "Weather Balloon" and "Mogul Balloon" theories being discussed here >on the base........The various discussion about composition of balloons and >the relative implementation of these new materials has been fascinating as >well. In all seriousness, I'm NOT being facetious about that. >However, I do have some questions about the Roswell incident being a Balloon >of ANY nature...... >From what I've read and understand, the item that "crashed" in or near >Roswell, left a GOUGE in the earth and scattered debris along a large area >of the ground. On May 21st I was awakened by my neighbor at 5:05 AM. There was a strange object in the NW sky. People were talking about it on the radio. After dressing, grabbing my videocam and telescope, I went out to the front drive and spotted the object. It was a beautiful sight. It was a NASA Cosmic ray balloon drifting west slowly at 130,000 feet. It was as big as the Houston astrodome. Later that day, it came down just north of Wickenberg, Arizona. The images on the evening news showed a NASA crew retrieving the instrument package from the huge crumbled balloon on the ground. I looked at this scene, transmitted over television, and never even thought that this could be metallic wreckage from any kind of aircraft (or spacecraft). It looked like a huge crumpled polyethelene balloon. And the instrument package looked like an instrument package. It didn't take an expert to determine that. BTW, it left NO GOUGE in the earth. I have noticed that the current explanation going around state-by-state for strange lights in formation in the night sky is FLARES. We had BALLOONS, now we have flares. The flares do not have relative motion, do not smoke, are not suspended by parachutes, and are sometimes seen to ascend after hovering. These are a new brand of magical flares dropped by sky wizards trying to fool us into believing in UFOs. Remember this: an explanation is NOT a hypothesis. Bill Hamilton Executive Director SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL Home e-mail: billh46088@aol.com, starmanbh@aol.com Work e-mail: bhamilto@pcshs.com SKYWATCH website: http://www.wic.net/colonel/ufopage.htm ALIEN MAGIC website: http://members.aol.com/billh46088/newhome.htm "It is easier to ridicule than investigate, but not as profitable" - Alan Search for other documents from or mentioning: bhamilto | furry |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 Research Shows Space Snowballs From: RSchatte@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:36:06 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 02:05:20 -0400 Subject: Research Shows Space Snowballs --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Research Shows Space Snowballs Date: 97-05-28 17:32:01 EDT From: AOL News .c The Associated Press</I></PRE></HTML> By PAUL RECER BALTIMORE (AP) - Thousands of comet snowballs from outer space are pelting the Earth's atmosphere daily, adding to the planet's water and delivering organic chemicals that may have been the original basis for life here, a researcher says. The finding is a return from the scientific wilderness for Louis A. Frank, a physicist at the University of Iowa who first proposed 11 years ago that space snowballs continuously strike the Earth. His theory was denounced and dismissed at the time, but on Wednesday his new studies muffled criticism in a hall full of scientists at the American Geophysical Union convention. Pictures from NASA's Polar spacecraft, orbiting at more than 30,000 miles, clearly show objects streaking toward the Earth and ballooning into clouds some 600 to 15,000 miles above the surface. Filters on the Polar cameras show the objects contain water, Frank said. He estimated that they are each 20- to 40-ton aggregates of ice speeding in from outer space at more than 20,000 miles an hour. They strike the Earth's upper atmosphere and vaporize, adding new moisture to the planet's water cycle. ``This is an enormous amount of water coming into our upper atmosphere,'' Frank said. ``If this rate has continued for the 4 billion-year history of our planet, it could account for the Earth's oceans.'' The snowball-like objects also may carry organic chemicals that ``may well have nurtured the development of life on our planet,'' Frank said. The objects deliver enough moisture to Earth to cover the entire planetary surface with 1 inch of water every 10,000 to 20,000 years, he said. That is not enough to significantly affect sea level in the future, said Frank, noting: ``The implications are more about what this means for the history of our planet.'' Many textbooks talk about the Earth's water being present as the planet was formed. Frank's study now suggests that the water arrived as a cosmic rain of iceballs that filled the oceans over millions of years. Frank first proposed the water-from-space theory after spotting dark spots on pictures taken by NASA's Dynamics Explorer I satellite in the late 1970s. He published a photograph in a physics journal that showed the dark spots and included his interpretation that they were comet-like ice bodies streaking in from space. On Wednesday, Frank called the photograph ``the image that launched 10,000 criticisms.'' It was published on April 1, 1986, and ``newspapers called to ask if this was an April Fool's joke.'' Scientists denounced and even ridiculed Franks' theory. Most said that the dark spots on the Explorer pictures were instrument ``noise,'' radio static that made marks on the images. In an effort to provide undeniable evidence, Frank helped design two new cameras for the Polar satellite. And the data presented Wednesday turned most attending scientists into believers. ``I was a skeptic 10 years ago. I gave up on the idea that those objects were real,'' said Robert R. Meier, a space scientist at the Naval Research Laboratory. ``I am convinced now that those objects are real.'' However, Meier said, whether the snowballs provided enough water for the Earth's oceans ``is an assumption.'' Added Steve Maran, a NASA astronomer: ``This is a new class of objects. He has been vindicated by the new data. That hardly ever happens in science.'' Astrophysicist Konrad Dennerl of the Max Planck Institute in Germany said the new study ``is very convincing, but still controversial.'' He said it needs to be independently verified by new studies. Andrew Nagy, a space scientists from the University of Michigan, said Frank convinced the audience that the objects he detected are real, but ``the interpretation that these are 50-ton comets needs more convincing.'' The objects detected by Frank's cameras are not true comets because they lack the metallic dust and other chemicals that make the long streaming tails characteristic of comets such as Hale-Bopp, Frank said. Instead, they are made up mostly of water ice, with some sort of shell, perhaps of carbon, that keeps them together in outer space. The shell shatters as it approaches Earth, allowing the ice to vaporize. ``We don't have a really good name for these things,'' said Frank. ``I guess you could call them snowballs.'' AP-NY-05-28-97 1718EDT Copyright 1997 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without prior written authority of The Associated Press.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 More On Corso From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:54:29 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 02:21:04 -0400 Subject: More On Corso Just found this on the Area 51 Mailing List (http://www.ufomind.com/new/current/): Early Corso Skepticism by Literary Agent From: campbell@ufomind.com (Glenn Campbell, Las Vegas) Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:26:17 -0800 Subject: Early Corso Skepticism by Literary Agent Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:53:47 -0800 From: "Cypher-DPU, Jim" <Jim.Cypher@state.ma.us> (jim cypher) [Posted with permission] my father is now a literary agent-editor. He had the chance to work on the unpublished memoirs of a retired Army Intel Colonel, Philip J. Corso. Phil was also a Senate investigator for Strom Thurmond after being in the Army R&D's "Foreign" Technology Division, as in not-of-this-Earth technology...well... that whole thing, including his claiming he was at a NATO base monitoring things flying around at 8000+ mph during the 1950's, did not sit well with my father. He thought the project was doomed. The stuff about Ike's NSC was good, the stuff about G2 in Rome during WWII was good, the stories about working for Gen. Willoughby under MacArthur was good, but the UFO thing was not what he had in mind... well it turned out the Colonel hooked up with a former editor from Aviation Week & Space Tech., to explore the idea... So now Simon & Schuster will put it out in July, the title is, "The Day After Roswell". Jim Cypher "So advanced, I'm simple!" Beaconite Marketing's NGV MarketSpace homepage = www.trelinks.com/~trel/ngv.html [He says he'll try to find who the AvWeek editor was. -- GC] Area 51 Mailing List Sponsored by the Area 51 Research Center. Moderated by Glenn Campbell. Technical contact: webmaster@ufomind.com Financial support for this web server is provided by the Research Center Catalog. Search for other documents from or mentioning: stig_agermose | campbell
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 EKIP - Russian Saucer-shaped Prototype From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:08:26 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 02:22:14 -0400 Subject: EKIP - Russian Saucer-shaped Prototype >Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:57:30 -0400 >From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: EKIP - Russian Saucer-shaped Prototype > >> Caption for attached .gif >> A larger version may carry up to 2,000 >> passengers. EKIP is set for testing in 1999. Odd that this craft should popup again, since its not new, news. It was in the program called "Dreamland" which is also available over here in England on video. In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible. Sean Jones http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 Re: AUFORA: Bizarreness in Australian Outback From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:50:13 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 02:19:19 -0400 Subject: Re: AUFORA: Bizarreness in Australian Outback Here are some additional details from yesterday's 6.02 pm edition of Wired News, a Web news service provided by the magazine "Wired": =20 US Scientists Probe Australian Desert Mystery by Dan Brekke=20 3:04pm=BF=BF28.May.97.PDT A team of US scientists, dispatched to Australia to try to find the source of a ground-shaking light that lit the outback heavens four years ago, reported their remarkable findings Wednesday.=20 The light most likely did not come, as some had feared, from a nuclear weapon cooked up by a Japanese cult with a fixation on weapons of mass destruction.=20 Concerns that the event was connected to the Aum Shinrikyo group, which owned property in the region and was reportedly trying to enrich uranium there, led officials in Australia and the United States to launch a long-term scientific inquiry. The US Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations asked seismologists affiliated with the National Science Foundation to look at what had happened in the outback.=20 The inquiry has come back with an answer that would be rejected by X-Files scriptwriters. The thing did come from space. But it was a big, dumb thing, made mostly of iron, that fell hard but apparently harmlessly to the ground. Enough energy was expended when the thing fell to register strongly on seismographs in the region.=20 The best explanation for the thing that desert gold miners and truck drivers saw cross the sky and vanish in a flash the night of 28 May 1993 was likely a 2- or 3-meter-diameter meteorite, a team of seismologists assembled by New York's Incorporated Research Institutions for Seismology told the American Geophysical Union in a report on the event.=20 "If the eyewitness accounts are credible, the seismic signal was most likely created by the impact of an iron meteorite," said seismologist Gregory van der Vink in a statement. "Such a meteorite could survive passage through the atmosphere, and impact earth with sufficient energy to create the seismic signal picked up by one of our stations in the Global Seismographic Network."=20 Not that the case is closed. The scientists noted that a meteorite of the size they guess was involved in the 1993 incident should have left a crater nearly 100 meters across. No crater has been found, and a hunt through the 485 square miles identified as the impact area is planned.=20 Scientists examining the event are Christal B. Hennet and Gregory E. van der Vink of Incorporated Research Institutions for Seismology in New York; Danny Harvey of the University of Colorado at Boulder; and Christopher Chyba of the University of Arizona. Harvey is a research associate at the Joint Seismic Program Center in the UC-Boulder physics department. =20 Copyright =A9 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies. All rights reserved.=20
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 Re: Raelian Movement Meeting 5/28/97 From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 02:01:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Raelian Movement Meeting 5/28/97 > Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:36:41 GMT > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com> > Subject: Raelian Movement Meeting 5/28/97 Paul Williams wrote: > Sisters and brothers, explorer's all. I wish to share with you an experience > I had this evening. Many of you out there are somewhat familiar with the > Raelian Movement I'm sure. Well I attended a meeting they had this evening > at the New Yorker Hotel, conviently located next to WBAI radio, where I > produce UFO Desk. Please allow me to share some of what was said at this > meeting along with some of my own humble ideas. ... > Let me make a million year story short, we are the result of their work. > Humans are the children and Elohim are the creators. Remember "let us make > man in our image", okay, now we know, where we come from. This revelation > was given to Rael, christan name not mentioned, back in 1973, when he was a > journalist. ... For those interested in more, there is Rael's book called _The Message Given to me by Extra-terrestrials_ (1986, 294 pages), by Claude Vorilhon, which is his Christian name. One problem with his story is that these creator ETs would have had to retain a continued participatory interest in earth over a few billion years, not just a million, if they introduced the first life onto earth's barren waters. With that much time for their science to develop further, it shouldn't now take them two months in traversing a light year to get from their planet to here! > According to the story, he was summoned to a place and a ship > landed. He met with the Elohim, and they took him for six days on a trip to > their home world and told him about the grand plan for humanity. No, this is > not Geo. Adamski going to Venus. The home world of the Elohim was not > mentioned, but perhaps it's in the book Rael wrote as a result of this > alledged trip. ... Yes, he says in the book that they told him their planet was very much like earth, and located slightly less than a light-year away. There was no mention of what astronomers consider as fact, namely that the closest star is some 4 or 5 light years away, and so there would be no sunlight on their planet to allow vegetation to evolve or survive, etc. For some reason, his ETs did not supply Rael with evidence with which to support his story; no photo opportunities, etc. Except that he had a close-up UFO sighting with his French wife and a friend in 1975. Rael supposedly means "messenger," and Claude Rael was told he is the last of their prophets. > The stated purpose of the RM [Raelian Movement] > is to build an embassy for the returning Elohim. > They are coming and want to help us. Of course humans do not have > to accept their help, so we were told. This embassy is to located in > New Jerusalem. This means in Jerusalem itself. His received messages have a Judaistic flavor to them, though with many highly unorthodox twists. They interpreted many Old Testament (OT) events as UFO/ET events, which is not so unreasonable except that his ETs, the Elohim, take credit for it all. Actually, it's well known that "ta Elohim" means "the gods" (plural); it's the feminine plural of the Hebrew word for a male god, so it could stand for gods & goddesses. After Jewish monotheism evolved out of henotheism, however, "Elohim" became interpreted within Judaism as a single God, and it's the OT's most prevalent word for God. The more common interpretation, however, is that Elohim is plural as in the sense of the "plural majesty." > The world according to the RM, several ideas were expressed, all of > which I thought were right on time.... Here is some more of the Raelian message from his book: 1. There is no God and no soul (p. 189). This seems to be their most heretical teaching, even as regard to the soul, since the OT mentions "soul" some 300 times. 2. Science is the most important thing for mankind; science should be your religion. 3. The Caballa, or Kaballa, is the religious book closest to the truth. 4. Marriage is to be rejected; abortion is OK. 5. Love the world and those who created it and us: the Elohim. 6. Jesus was one of their messengers; if this had been properly understood 2000 years ago, "all the Christians in the world would not be Christians but Jews," and the people of Israel would not have had problems (p. 221). [But they wouldn't be Jews in any ordinary religious sense, according to other parts of their message.] 7. Rome was unrightfully selected as the base for the new religion of 2000 years ago, and now is the time to restore this base or embassy to Jerusalem (p. 221). So I see this as another ET ploy to stir things up and get people, especially marginal Jews, to wonder about the basis of their religion. Without high quality photo evidence plus supportive witnesses to back it up, Rael of course won't be able to get very far with the movement. But I think the odds are better than even that he was a genuine contactee. His message seems a bit too creative, and his own actions too persistent, for it to be his own doing; yet without supportive evidence, one can easily say he made it all up. Other ETs, I think, have tried to promote other religious philosophies. One group supports conservative Christianity (in the book _UFO Contact: The Four_ with Donna Butts as contactee and S. Scott Corder, M.D., as investigator); the Ashtar ETs with Giordio Bongiovanni as contactee or abductee tend to support Roman Catholicism, with twists; many others support a cosmic philosophy, sometimes through a form of channeling, e.g., the Urantia book. They keep stirring the pot. > Rael is a skillful speaker, he's friendly, and seems genuine. ... And so he's been amazingly successful in recruiting a following that I believe now numbers in the several tens of thousands. He seems quite dedicated to trying to expand the Movement. Just think how many more followers still he'd have if he had been given numerous daytime photo opportunities to record the Elohim's UFOs on film! Jim Deardorff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 Re: Mogul Balloons and Weather Balloons From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> Date: 29 May 97 19:35:24 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:23:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Mogul Balloons and Weather Balloons >Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:38:48 -0400 >To: Updates@globalserve.net >From: David <furry@nobelmed.com> >Subject: Mogul Balloons and Weather Balloons David wrote; >From what I've read and understand, the item that "crashed" in or near >Roswell, left a GOUGE in the earth and scattered debris along a large area >of the ground. My understanding was that no gouge was ever found, unless you're referring to the 'sizzled' rockface of recent antiquity. According to Berlitz and Moore, the 'thingy' continued in the air for some 125 miles before crashing to earth, presumably (according to Johnny McBoyle), they got the really fast tractor out to get that one back to the ranch. >More often then not, a balloon that lost air; would >float lazily to earth and be rather INTACT. Until it hit the storm. James A Diss ---------------------- HEALTH WARNING: Care Should Be Taken When Lifting This Product, Since Its Mass, and Thus Its Weight, Is Dependent on Its Velocity Relative to the User. --------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 Re: Ecker on Corso & Marrs Books From: RGates8254@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:46:04 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:43:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Ecker on Corso & Marrs Books >Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:46:02 -0400 >From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Ecker on Corso & Marrs Books >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Regarding... >>From: DONFEII@aol.com >>Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:24:53 -0400 (EDT) >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Ecker on Corso & Marrs Books >Don Ecker wrote: >>The secret that Corso says he releases is concerned with the Roswell >>incident.... How Corso was detailed to pump alien artifacts into the >>industrial pipeline to jump start many areas of today's current >>technology! >>Some of the items he links to ET-inspired R&D are night-vision >>technology, which the Army began using later in Viet Nam, fibre-optic >>technology which has created a revolution in communications, lasers >>and particle beam technology for advanced weaponry, silicon computer >>chips which have revolutionized computer technology. >Don, >There are major problems with these claims. >Let's take it back a bit... >In 1930, Dr. Julius Edgar Lilienfield of New York, filed for a patent >on a "Method and Apparatus for Controlling Electric Currents". He was >issued with a patent for the first solid-state, amplifying transistor. >Presumably, that wasn't ET inspired. >In 1947, three scientists at Bell Telephone Laboratories, William >Shockley, Walter Brattain and John Bardeen demonstrated their new >invention of the point-contact transistor amplifier. Their research >pre-dated "Roswell". In 1956 they were awarded the Nobel Prize in >physics for their work in developing the transistor. >In 1952, G. W. Dummer, a _British_ radar expert, presented a paper >proposing that a solid block of materials be used to connect >electronic components, with no connecting wires. >In 1953, IBM unveiled the Defense Calculator, its first computer and >primitive by today's standards. <snip> I also recall an article in a computer mag about how the royal Air Force in WW-2 used sometype of what we would consider a crude computer for bomb targeting and other reasons, also early H-bomb calculations were run on pre-Roswell computers, and post-Roswell computers -- MANIAC as I recall. Personally I will be interested in reading Caruso's book. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B & B Affair From: Queenscotg@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:57:05 -0400 Subject: Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B & B Affair >From: EdKomarek@aol.com >Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:16:14 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Cc: skywatch@phoenix.net, iufo@world.std.com >Subject: IUFO: Re: UFO UpDate: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B &B Affair >-> SearchNet's IUFO Mailing List >>Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:10:35 -0500 (CDT) >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B&B >Affair -> SearchNet's IUFO Mailing List First I have to ask...was your friend SURE that the people were from MUFON??? Who said so? Could it have just been some silly people trying to cover their own embarassment by shifting/disguising their own identity. Second, MUFON members are just individuals like Baptist Church members, or VFW members are or Chamber of Commerce members are...the organizations to which they belong does NOT CONTROL their behavior. I'm confident that 99% of us who are MUFON members would never do such a ill-mannered, ugly thing...most of the people I know in MUFON are sincerely committed to getting to the bottom of the whole UFO thing. A -> Send "subscribe iufo " to majordomo@world.std.com -> Posted by: Queenscotg@aol.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 Re: Riz Khan Half Hour CNN International Debate On From: John Hayes <john@ufoinfo.ftech.co.uk> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 07:07:08 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 04:06:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Riz Khan Half Hour CNN International Debate On As most people will know by now the programme was not broadcast. Almost immediately I e-mailed cnni@turner.com asking whether it would be broadcact (if I had waited I would have heard the answer at the end of the programme) and received this reply: > Hello John: > > Feel guilty no more! The show will air. But our guest, Jim Marrs had > to reschedule until June 13th--a Friday. How appropriate! We hope you > watch. > > Lisa, Producer of Q&A with Riz Khan. John Hayes. john@ufoinfo.ftech.co.uk ufoinfo@digiserve.com Visit UFOINFO at http://www.digiserve.com/ufoinfo/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 Re: Raelian Movement Meeting 5/28/97 From: RobIrving@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:57:13 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:25:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Raelian Movement Meeting 5/28/97 > Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:36:41 GMT > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com> > Subject: Raelian Movement Meeting 5/28/97 Paul, > Firstly I must say that it was a professional presentation. The > program started off with a beautiful video of life on this planet. > Principally a lovely black bird, species unknown to this writer, > as it was performing it's mating ritual, there was another video > with a lovely young woman, explaining the Raelian idea of how > this planet was the labortory of a race of beings the Raelians > called the Elohim, please note, that Elohim is plural... > It seems these Elohim were very much into genetic manipulation. > From what the video shared these Elohim were doing this work > on their home planet, but seem to have run into some kind of > problems with their people not wanting that work being done on > their home world. Not wanting to poop on your epiphany, but does evidence exist for this beyond the slick video and one man's dreamy reminiscences? Last weekend I met a man who put up a quite convincing argument that rebel Venusians are controlling things from their subterranean hide-out. His Creation story was especially entertaining. It certainly made as much sense as many of the tales we hear. With the absence of evidence either way I'm inclined to plump for the rebel Venusian angle, because the guy who explained it to me had a beard, beery breath, and couldn't care less if I believed him or not. Whereas the Raelians I've met have all seemed to smell of Lifebuoy, smile too much, wear curiously anachronistic suits, as they glide around conferences getting in my face. For some reason I just don't trust people who opt for those really low side-partings, because they require so much hairspray, and then it's one thing after another. Am I making a huge, potentially damning, error of judgement here? Rob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B &B Affair From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:16:14 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:57:00 -0400 Subject: Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B &B Affair >Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:10:35 -0500 (CDT) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B&B >Affair (Part 2 of letters of rebuttal to Stacy from Ed) >You can think what you want. The fact of the matter, though, >is that it's >you, Ed, who relentlessly attacks the character of everyone >who doesn't >agree with your paranoid worldview. If it's not me or MUFON, It is completely false that I attack the character of everyone who doesn't agree with me. I have vigorously attacked the credibility of Kal Korff and Karl Pflock. I have previously let Kent Jeffery off for his debunking of the Alien Autopsy film because he was working on the Roswell petition drive. Now he has chosen to undermine at a very critical time much of all the good work that has been done on the petitions is just unbelievable. I and many others are feeling that he has betrayed out trust. The timing to go public could not be more damaging right on the 50th anniversary of Roswell. He has got to know that. This stinks to high heaven. So this makes three individuals I have gone after. Two have very questionable backgrounds with apparent counter intelligence training and who use debunker tactics ruthlessly. The third Kent Jeffery has a background we know little about other than the is a airline pilot. What am I going to hear next. That Kent flys for Air America? Jim Moesley by the way is a good friend of mine have you seen me attacking him? These other researchers you mention have I attacked them? You are way off base here and I am sure the readers can see through what you are doing. To equate all with just 3 or 4 individuals is very deceptive. How have I attacked MUFON? I published material by BB Rider that is not favorable to MUFON and you construe that as a attack? Then you tell the public I am making up the story when BB Rider's email address is right at the top of the post. You claim to have checked into this matter and yet you have not even taken the time to email him. Brother! All you had to do was send me something to publish and that would be end of story. But no you have to open up on me. Wow! >it's Kent >Jeffrey. The latter can't just be an honest man expressing an >honest >opinion. No, to you, he's a tireless schemer, liar and Roswell >debunker who >probably puts tacks in the ORTK parking lot to boot. What a >sad commentary Did I ever call Kent a liar? No I did not. I see a pattern of what I believe is deception and I am working to point that out. I predict that Kent's arguments will be picked apart in great detail just like Kal, Karl, Weaver, Todd et all. But that won't stop these individuals from pushing these flawed arguments in the mainstream press leading many astray of the truth. I think this is all part of a containment operation. >on your own lack of moral scruples. It's you, Ed, who is >always insisting >that the messenger be smeared, primarily because it's easier >to do that than >to have to actually *think* about the message itself. Maybe you are seeing yourself in the mirror here. I simply publish someone's material with name and address on it and you take off smearing me rather than taking the time to check with the individual when his email address is right there in front of you. Talk about the ultimate in hypocrisy. >So sharpen your poison pen, Ed. Jeffrey's article should be in >the next >issue of the Journal, where I'll be controlling and suppressing >all the dissent. Now is interesting news! Right at the peak of the Roswell anniversary and the mass media press coverage. What timing! Roll out the red carpet. >As for MUFON's "dirty laundry" in the ranch attack, you still >don't get it, >do you, Ed? Tom, Walt and I have spoken to a number of people >here in Texas, >and no has the foggiest notion of an idea of what these people >are talking >about. Yet you can't find the time to email the person responsible for the post! And you call yourself researchers. >If you weren't so paranoid yourself, 60 seconds of common >sense would tell you and most people that the story makes >no sense whatsoever. Do you really >think that we sat around Seguin plotting a disruptive attack >on someone >we've never even heard of? What will our heinous minds come >up with next? >Soap on Whitley Strieber's windows? Of course not, I did not write the post! >But you don't CARE if the story is true or not, Ed, because to >you it's all >just dirty MUFON laundry. So why check, why ask for names >and confirmation, >when you can just spread rumor and innuendo, most of which >MUFON has no >adequate way of addressing because we can never be sure that >everyone you >personally polluted will see our response. It's an old tactic, >Ed, and it >has nothing to do with an honest difference of opinion or >public forum, but >everything to do with a tar brush. You're one of the best at >that, Ed, so >keep it up. This precisely the problem with MUFON. All you had to do was send me a rebuttal. I would have published it and so both sides of the story would be heard. Would that have been so hard to do. Instead you launch a ferocious attack on my character the same as Kal Korff. Man, when I see this kind of fire and smoke I know I am on to something. I am sure I am not the only person who has had this happen to them when Mufon gets criticized. Instead of working to correct problems within the Mufon leadership, Mufon just sends out hit man Stacy to blow them away with his poison pen. No wonder lawyer Peter Gerstein has called for a complete reorganization of Mufon.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 Antimatter geyser discovered at galaxy's centre From: werd@interlog.com (Drew Williamson) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:38:29 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 02:28:22 -0400 Subject: Antimatter geyser discovered at galaxy's centre You can almost here Scotty saying to Captain Kirk; "I've got to tap up the matter-antimatter fuels cells Captain! Canna we no stop at the center o' the galaxy for just a wee moment!" >From the Globe and Mail, Wednesday, April 30, 1997 Drew Williamson ************************************* DEADLY ERUPTION / At the heart of the Milky Way is a positron blowtorch one scientist has called 'a fountain of annihilating death.' Antimatter geyser discovered at galaxy's centre BY MALCOLM BROWNE New York Times Service Williamsburg, Va. ASTROPHYSICISTS say they have discovered what appears to be a monster fountain of antimatter erupting from the core of the Milky Way. They said the discovery could compel them to alter their image of the disk-shaped galaxy. In the revised image, it is as if a burst of steam were spurting upward from the yolk of a fried egg. The discovery, reported at a meeting on Monday, was made using the Compton Gamma Ray Observatory, a satellite launched by the National Aer onautics and Space Administration six years ago. The four instruments aboard the observatory detect, measure and record gamma rays: invisible rays that have higher energies than all other forms of radiation, including Xrays. The antimatter was discovered as a result of a series of observations made by the satellite since November. Antimatter-a form of matter in which the electrical charge of each constituent particle is the reverse of that in the usual matter of our universe-cannot be directly detected in space. But when antimatter comes into contact with ordinary matter, they instantly annihilate each other, producing gamma rays, which can be detected by instruments outside Earth's shielding atmosphere. The newly discovered plume of antimatter rises some 3,500 light-years above the disk of Earth's galaxy, which is about 100,000 light-years across. But even if this cloud of antimatter were to reach Earth, the scientists reassured their audience, it would cause no harm, because the antimatter particles in the cloud are extremely diffuse. Moreover, only positrons are believed to be present, not antiprotons or entire antimatter atoms. Although forms of antimatter other than positrons have been created in laboratories on Earth, they have never been unequivocally identified elsewhere. (A prevailing theory is that the Big Bang of creation produced approximately equal amounts of matter and antimatter, which promptly annihilated each other, but that a small excess of ordinary matter was enough to create the universe as we know it, with very little surviving antimatter.) Astrophysicists representing the Naval Research Laboratory, Northwestern University and the University of California at Berkeley, who collaborated in the discovery, said the cause and nature of the antimatter fountain were puzzling. It may be a more or less continuous shaft of antimatter streaking northward from the galactic center, or it may be a cloud separated from the main part of the galaxy. Charles Dermer of the Naval Research Laboratory surmised that the fountain is a mixture of gas, boiling away from violently dying stars near the centre of the galaxy, and a stream of positrons. When positrons (also called positive electrons) collide with ordinary, negatively charged electrons, they destroy each other and spawn gamma rays that have a very specific energy: 511,000 electron volts. The Compton satellite is able to identify the specific energies of the gamma rays it sees, and the "fountain" was seen by tuning the instrument to the characteristic electron-positron annihilation energy. It has long been known that Earth's galaxy looks something like a fried egg with pinwheel spirals. Earth lies in one of these spirals, and as we look up at the Milky Way on clear nights, we look inward toward the galactic centre. But dust and gas obstruct any light from the galactic centre, so astronomers must depend on other types of radiation to deduce the galaxy's innermost structure. Earlier gamma-ray observations have suggested that there is an enormous black hole at the center of the galaxy and that, as matter is drawn into the hole, it is so intensely heated that antimatter positrons are formed. This would account for some of the bright gamma rays flowing from the galactic centre, but scientists realized that it could not explain the much larger flow of gamma radiation coming from the Milky Way as a whole. Even after a relatively small black hole dubbed the Great Annihilator, was discovered fairly near the galaxy's centre several years ago, there still seemed to be too few gamma rays to account for all the gamma rays seen by wide-angle detectors in space. The latest discovery could account for the missing gamma rays. Dr. Dermer, of the Naval Research Laboratory, described the big feature as "a fountain of annihilating death from exploding stars." Viewed from Earth's position within the Milky Way, the fountain, about 25,000 light-years distant, is about 4,000 light-years across and rises 3,500 light-years above the galactic disc. Asked why the fountain should rise from only one side of the galaxy and not the other, Dermer compared the galaxy to a pressure cooker, in which rising pressure "from a boiling cauldron of exploding stars" blew off the lid. The results of the latest Compton satellite measurements were kept secret until Monday, when the research team disclosed that their findings had been submitted for publication in The Astrophysical Journal. Few scientists not involved in the study have had time to evaluate the discovery, reported in the course of a symposium of more than 200 astrophysicists specializing in gamma-ray research. Although none of the scientists questioned the existence of the "annihilation fountain" suggested by the satellite's measurements, much debate is expected concerning the origin of the fountain's positrons. Drew Williamson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 Temporal Doorway UFO Additions for June 1997 From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:09:12 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 04:04:37 -0400 Subject: Temporal Doorway UFO Additions for June 1997 Though I've been highly occupied in trying to (and not yet finishing) the Temporal Doorway Storefront at the First Virtual Infohaus (which will open shortly, offering the full text of my two novels for sale), a number of UFO-related additions have been made to the Temporal Doorway during the last month. I was able to obtain the original case reports for the clear dome / dual occupant cases from New England (1967) and New Zealand (1959) courtesy of Raymond Fowler and Murray Bott respectively. Information and sketches from those reports have been added to the site. Unfortunately, that additional information reduced the likeness between the two reports, but they remain fascinating exemplars of the clear dome / two occupant case. Also, the new information on the New Zealand case shows medical effects on the primary witness, and has been added to the paper on eye and skin irritation. An additional report has been added to the clear dome / two occupant set, pending confirmation - Lakeland FL, 1968. Please let me know if you have any information on that case. The Puerto Maldonado case (a large cigar-shaped object emitting white smoke trail, 1951, Peru) has been added to the catalog (information courtesy Victor J.Kean and Anders Liljegren), photos included. Several versions of the case account came to light, and all of them have been placed in the catalog. According to a recent video, this object's trail produced an angel hair fall. Anyone with information on the angel hair connection to this case, please contact me. An analysis of the statistics on the Hudson Valley UFO sightings of the 1980s, with graphs and tables, has also been placed on the site. This study shows the variations in reported object lighting, behavior, and size over the several minor flaps in the area, based on summaries from the book "Night Siege". On a more disappointing note, it appears likely that the Mount Clemens photos used in the consistent feature paper are hoaxed. Information courtesy Mark Rodeghier of CUFOS has been analysed and added as a link from the paper. A few loose ends remain to be tied up before the case is removed from the paper, but the information on the hoax will be left at the site to help prevent others from making the same error in the future. This is one of the risks of research, and disproof must be accepted when research is scientific. It also stands as a reminder that no UFO photo is better than its accompanying report, and reinforces my conviction that good field investigation and broad publication of field results are critical to the success of the next level of research. I hope you enjoy the additions. Don't forget to have a look at the June art show and the various other (non-UFO) changes at The Temporal Doorway. ------- Mark Cashman, creator of the Temporal Doorway at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/5623/ Original digital art, writing and UFO research mcashman@ix.netcom.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context From: KRandle993@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:53:44 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:12:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context > Subj: UFO UpDate: Re: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context > Date: 97-05-22 01:23:56 EDT > From: updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto) > To: updates@globalserve.net >> From: TotlResrch@aol.com >> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 03:35:21 -0400 (EDT) >> To: Updates@globalserve.net >> Subject: Kevin Randle Gets It Wrong #3 >>>From: KRandle993@aol.com >>>Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:17:42 -0400 (EDT) >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: Kal Korff and Quotes out of Context >>I've been waiting to see Kal Korff's book to see if he took my statement >>about relying only on the public record out of context. What a surprise. >>He did. >> To which Kal Korff replies: >>Kevin, I did NOT misquote you nor did I take what you said out of context. >>For the record, Kevin, here is EXACTLY what your words were, so don't try >>to DENY them: "If I had to rely on the public record [in the Roswell case], >>I'd throw up. The evidence is not strong and it's not compelling." (Kevin >>Randle, personal interview over the telephone with reporter Art Levine for >>a MSNBC article featuring Kal Korff, October 1996.) Interesting that Levine never told me this was an article to feature Kal Korff, but who really cares. Now, Mr. Korff, let's have the rest of it. I was telling Levine that I had the opportunity to speak to some witnesses who have died. I know what Edwin Easley told me about the extraterrestrial nature of the craft. Greg Sandow pointed out that he wished I had a tape of that interview. Well, so do I, but the circumstances were such that no tape was made. However, I know what he said to me, and while I have reported on that conversation, it is not in the public record in the same fashion as other information. What I mean is, with Easley dead, you can't call him to get the same information. >Two questions, Kevin: 1) Since the testimonies of Major Jesse Marcel, Bill >Brazel, Jesse Marcel Jr., Walter Haut, Bessie Schreiber, Walt Whitmore Jr., >Floyd Proctor, and Blanchard's widow are ALL in the public record, (and had >been so for some 15 YEARS BEFORE you made your curious statement) are you >saying their testimonies are "not strong" or "not compelling?" I find the very testimonies to be interesting, but, they are all testimonies. Wouldn't it be nice for a little physical evidence. Walt Whitmore, Jr. claimed to have a hunk of the balloon debris (not the UFO debris as you suggest) but was never able to produce it. That his testimony, and that of Bessie Brazel Schreiber are in direct conflict with others suggests that their tales should be studied as carefully as you have studied the testimony of those you don't believe. Why the double standard? >2) The testimonies of Jim Ragsdale, Sally Tadolini, Frankie Rowe, Frank >Kaufmann, Sgt. Melvin Brown, Glenn Dennis, and Rueben Anaya are also in the >public record, Kevin, no thanks to you (or do you blame Don Schmitt for >this >as well?). Ahh, the master of the cheap shot. Anyway, the same thing holds true here. They are testimonies and nothing more. >This has been the case for many YEARS, Kevin, as you well know. After all, >YOU and Schmitt put Roswell "on the map" big time via Hollywood and >Showtime's adaptation of you and Schmitt's book., or do you blame Don >solely for all this? Cheap shot again and irrelevant. >Are you saying, Kevin, that these testimonies are "not strong" and are "not >compelling" as well? The very ones that you, yourself, brought into the >"public record"? Please answer these questions, Kevin, simple short answers >with respect to each of these individuals and WHERE you stand regarding >their statements will suffice, Kevin. >This is WHY I asked you, by the way, sometime back in another posting, >"Where Does Kevin Randle REALLY Stand?" Roswell was an alien craft and I will not change my mind after the 50th anniversary as you have alleged. [snip] >Please tell us WHICH Roswell "witnesses" you DO believe and WHICH ones you >do NOT, Kevin, and WHY!!! I have laid this out in THE RANDLE REPORT. I try to correct any errors I have made. Are you going to do the same? I mean, I have the documentst to prove the Roswell Fire Department made runs outside the city in 1947. You apparently didn't even bother to call to check this out... you just printed the same tired rumors as always. You might not want to believe Frankie Rowe, but you can't reject her testimony because the Roswell Fire Department did make runs outside the city. Are you planning to repair the other whoppers in your book or are you just going to criticize everyone else in capital letters? KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B & B Affair From: Jerry Washington <skyeking@aye.net> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:24:38 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:40:07 -0400 Subject: Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B & B Affair > From: EdKomarek@aol.com > Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:15:32 -0400 (EDT) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B & B Affair > Subj: MUFON's Purpose > Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 5:51 PM EDT > From: bbryder@bga.com > To: EdKomarek@aol.com > ...During the middle of the...seminar, several people burst in and > began taking pictures with flashbulbs going off while shouting, "We > know who you are!", and "We've got your picture!", and other such > intimidating shouts... > When the ruckus died down some, my friends found out that the > intruders were from MUFON... Is that anywhere near Tucson?? > ...they had burst in on the wrong seminar... > BB Ryder & group -- Ed: I have a couple of questions fer ya'. How in the hell were those "people from MUFON" identified, anyway? Were they sporting a scarlet M on their foreheads? Perhaps it'd been burned onto their behinds with a branding iron (which I hear are popular in Texas)in some sort of bizarre saucer-lovers ritual. Or maybe it'd been tatooed on their forearms, Nazi style. Maybe the PFM (Persons From MUFON) were dressed up like storm troopers with the MUFON logo emblazoned on their helmets (they really should reveal their name, rank, and serial number ONLY when captured!). Or perhaps they were chanting "Walt Andrus, Walt Andrus, Walt Walt, Andrus Andrus," Hare Krisna-style as they scurried about like zombies committing their dastardly deeds... You know, Ed, if I was bent on disrupting Tea Time in Tejas, it would be very easy, and muy convenient, I might add, for me to pin it on MUFON should I pull a boner and invade the wrong gathering. It's somewhat akin to blaming it on the Bossa Nova (the dance of love, BTW) and/or the Devil, when one's ass is against the wall. It's called passin' the buck dude, "The Devil made me do it," which in the immortal words of Ira Gershwin means, "It ain't necessarily so." Jerry Washington SD & a PFM Kentucky/MUFON Search for other documents from or mentioning: skyeking | edkomarek |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 Re: Mogul Balloons and Weather Balloons From: David <furry@nobelmed.com> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:29:41 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:47:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Mogul Balloons and Weather Balloons >From: bhamilto@pcshs.com >Date: Thu, 29 May 97 08:21:03 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mogul Balloons and Weather Balloons >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, updates@globalserve.net [snip] >a huge crumpled polyethelene balloon. And the instrument package looked >like an instrument package. It didn't take an expert to determine that. >BTW, it left NO GOUGE in the earth. >Remember this: an explanation is NOT a hypothesis. > > >Bill Hamilton >Executive Director >SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL Bill, Thank you for the information about the NASA balloon. It basically went far to illustrating my point. If you would read MY post again, you would notice that my contention is exactly what your report indicates. Crashed balloons do NOT gouge the earth nor do they scatter debris over a wide area. My post asked this question and I'll put it more succinctly. Can anyone explain to me how a crashed balloon could POSSIBLY gouge the earth and leave debris over a LARGE area? Dave (Furry) Furlotte
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 Roswell's 50th 'Events' From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:36:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:36:30 -0400 Subject: Roswell's 50th 'Events' From: Dirk Vander Ploeg's tasty Shadowlands Publishing Site @ http://www.shadowmag.com The Roswell Incident 50th Anniversary Celebration Encounter '97: The 50th Anniversary of the Roswell Incident The Roswell UFO Encounter '97: The 50th Anniversary of the UFO Crash will begin on Tuesday, July 1, with a UFO Film Festival. The entries will include short films by professionals and amateurs, and there will be a special showing of 'Roswell', with proceeds going to charity. The Film Festival will conclude on Wednesday, July 3, with an awards program. The evening of July 2 will initiate the first of seven live performances by the Roswell Community Little Theater, in their production of 'Ezekiel's Wheel'. This informative and humorous one act play, written by John Rosenberg, depicts a young reporter's attempts to interview Ezekiel regarding his sighting of an unidentified flying object. Evening Performances: July 2-4 Matinees: July 3-5 Conference The UFO Conference will begin on Wednesday, July 3 and will continue through Sunday, July 6. The 90 minute lectures will begin at 9:00 AM. There will be 30 minute break periods. As the IUFOMRC was responsible for the organization of the conference, we are proud to announce the following speakers: Don Schmitt, Roswell Investigator/Author Linda Moulton Howe, Author/Cattle Mutilation Researcher/Assoc. Art Bell Paul Davids, Executive Producer 'Roswell'/Investigator of government conspiracies Michael Lindemann, Investigator of UFO Phenomenon/Author Erich von Daniken, Archaeologist/Author/Investigator of early ET existence Stanton Friedman, Investigator Roswell Incident/Author Lance Strong Eagle, Native American beliefs of ET life forms John Hunter Gray, Native American connections to Ets. Those speakers who have verbally confirmed: Whitley Strieber, Author/Abductee, Dr. John Mack, Author/Investigator of abductions, Bud Hopkins, Author/Investigator of abduction, Robert Dean, UFO witness/lecturer, Special Feature: Sunday morning, July 6. We have been working with Don Schmitt and William Shatner on a special performance. Tickets to the lectures will be sold at the door of the New Mexico Military Institute's, Pearson Auditorium. A complete schedule of lectures will be mailed to IUFOMRC Members. The Roswell Encounters Committee set out to provide a family festival for attendees of the event. Throughout the week, many activities will be on-going, all produced by different organizations throughout the community. The Roswell Parks and Recreation Department will be overseeing the children's activities, carnival games, and possibly a lazar-tag tournament. The Roswell Art Museum will be holding their annual Alien Costume Contest, ages toddlers - adult. The Roswell Jaycees will sponsor their annual non-motorized spaceship building contest: The 1997 UFO Crash and Burn Extravaganza! Laser Light and Music shows will be held at the Robert H. Goddard Planetarium. More information will follow as it becomes available. Contact the IUFOMRC at: UFOMIND or 505-623-7733 for information on any of the events.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 London UFO Conference 21/22 June 1997 From: Graham William Birdsall <106151.1150@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:46:48 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:42:29 -0400 Subject: London UFO Conference 21/22 June 1997 Dear Colleagues, The following information may be disseminated to all interested parties: Quest Publications International Ltd Proudly Present "50 Golden Years" Celebrating the 50th Anniversary of the Roswell Incident and Flying Saucers Imperial College, London Saturday & Sunday 21 - 22 June 1997 TIMETABLE FOR SATURDAY Doors Open: 9.45am / Opening Address: 10.55am Graham W. Birdsall (UK): 11.00am Russel Callaghan (UK): 12.15pm Luncheon Interval: 1.00pm UFO Film Footage Sequence: 2.00pm Larry Warren & Peter Robins (USA): 2.15pm Short Interval: 3.30pm George Knapp (USA): 3.45pm Short Interval: 5.15pm Tony Dodd (UK): 5.30pm Question Time: 6.45pm Close: 7.30pm TIMETABLE FOR SUNDAY Doors Open: 9.45am / Opening Address: 10.55am Nick Pope (UK): 11.00am Short Interval: 12.15pm Alan Alford (UK): 12.30pm Luncheon Interval: 2.00pm UFO Film Footage Sequence: 3.00pm Edward Ashpole (UK): 3.15pm Short Interval: 4.45pm Stanton T. Friedman (Canada): 5.00pm Question Time: 6.45pm Close: 7.30pm TICKETS Saturday: Adults =A312.50 Concessions =A310.00 Sunday: Adults =A312.50 Concessions =A310.00 Attend Both Days: =A320.00 Send cheque/P.O. to: Quest Publications International Ltd Wharfebank House Wharfebank Business Centre Ilkley Road Otley LS21 3JP Monies payable to: 'Quest Publications Int. Ltd.' Credit Card Holders can dial direct on the following telephone number (no booking fee): 01943 850860 (4 lines) Office hours Mon to Fri - 9.00am - 6.00pm Your ticket(s) will be accompanied by full timetable; map of the area; transportation via air / tube / road; choice of discounted hotel accommodation; full speaker biographies. * Colleagues may also be interested to learn that the ITV Network will be hosting a 90-minute 'live' debate on UFOs between 8.30pm - 10.00pm on Friday, 27 June. * Our 104-page full colour 50th Anniversary Issue of 'The Unopened Files' is now on general sale throughout the United Kingdom. Warmest regards, Graham W. Birdsall [Editor] UFO Magazine (UK)=20
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 Re: Research Shows Space Snowballs From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:39:00 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:39:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Research Shows Space Snowballs Thanks to Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> for the lead to the following..... ebk _______________________________________________ From:=20 http://search.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1997-05/29/125L-052997-idx.ht= ml Cosmic Snowballs Detected Pelting Earth's Atmosphere Objects Vaporize, Eventually Become Rain By Kathy Sawyer Washington Post Staff Writer Thursday, May 29 1997; Page A01 The Washington Post=20 BALTIMORE, May 28 -- Earth is bathed by a steady "cosmic rain" from previously undetected objects from outer space that pour vast quantities of water into the atmosphere, according to startling new evidence released today. The objects, 20- to 40-ton snowballs the size of two-bedroom houses, streak into the atmosphere by the thousands each day, disintegrate harmlessly 600 to 15,000 miles up and deposit large clouds of water vapor that eventually fall on Earth's surface as rain, according to Louis A. Frank of the University of Iowa. He led the research team that for the first time has captured images of these objects. The ramifications of the discovery are potentially enormous, Frank and other scientists said. If Frank's interpretation of the evidence is confirmed, it could force scientists to revise long-held beliefs about how Earth and the solar system evolved, how the building blocks of life first arose, how the oceans formed and whether fluxes in the cosmic rain could have caused the ice ages and mass extinctions of living species. Scientists might also be compelled to study the impact of this alien precipitation on Earth's climate, the "greenhouse" effect and the "hole" in the ozone layer over Antarctica. The discovery suggests that the volume of water on Earth is increasing. It also has implications for the evolution of other planets, such as Mars, that should be getting bathed in the same extraterrestrial drizzle. "This relatively gentle cosmic rain -- which possibly contains organic compounds -- may well have nurtured the development of life on our planet," Frank said. He presented the unprecedented images, with graphs and analysis, to a riveted crowd of colleagues at a meeting of the American Geophysical Union here. "When it rains," he added, "look up and smile. You never know where it came from." The evidence of snowballs from outer space comes from images taken at both ultraviolet and visible wavelengths by Frank's specially designed instrument aboard NASA's year-old POLAR spacecraft. One shows an object streaking across the sky and bursting over Europe last Sept. 26. Researchers noted that the snowballs disintegrate at altitudes well above the orbits of human occupants aboard U.S. shuttles and the Russian space station. The new evidence resurrects a theory widely rejected as preposterous when Frank first proposed it in 1986: that a strange population of stealthy, relatively small comets made of almost pure ice has been spraying water into Earth's upper atmosphere at a sufficiently high rate over the 4.5 billion-year life of the planet to have created all the oceans. This week, several of Frank's leading former critics said the new evidence appears solid. The scientific community must now confront the host of extremely difficult questions the findings raise, they said -- the same questions that made the initial evidence seem so implausible. One puzzle, for example, is how these objects could have streamed through Earth's history undetected by humanity until now. In addition, if these comets are raining down on Earth, they should also be hitting the moon, where they should have been detectable as seismic events. The findings also challenge scientists to account for the putative cosmic drizzle in Earth's known water "budget," thought to be a fixed amount of water constantly recycled through rain, evaporation and other processes. The planet's annual average precipitation is just under 34 inches, and Frank estimates the cosmic snowballs contribute enough to spread one ten-thousandth of an inch of water over the Earth's surface annually. That seems a pittance, unless it is multiplied over millions or billions of years. In any case, several experts said, it is not a trivial amount. The consensus among scientists who have reviewed Frank's data prior to its pending publication is that the space physicist has indeed discovered a population of objects that is raining huge amounts of water into the Earth's atmosphere. But several cautioned that more data will be required before his interpretation of the evidence -- particularly as to the quantities of water involved over time -- can be accepted. Thomas Donahue of the University of Michigan, an expert in planetary atmospheres who was among the most influential of Frank's earlier critics, said in a telephone interview from Switzerland: "There are objects in the solar system we did not suspect were there. Nobody would believe it. Now, I think they're going to have to believe it. . . . I'm glad to see Lou vindicated." Alex Dessler, former editor of the journal Geophysical Research Letters, which published Frank's initial evidence on April Fool's Day 1986, later became known as Frank's most aggressive adversary. In a telephone interview, he said that he will not be convinced until a second instrument and a researcher other than Frank confirm the observations. He conceded that "there's no question something's happening" in the new data. Frank, 58, who describes himself as a cantankerous, publicity-shy loner, said in an interview that he always understood the criticism: "The implications are enormous. They are breathtaking." He reiterated his contention that, as he is gradually proven right, "the textbooks in a dozen sciences will have to be rewritten. . . . We just have to take a different perspective on our origins." The new objects are different in kind from the extraterrestrial dust, rock and other material that is known to rain into Earth's atmosphere regularly, some of it forging fiery meteor trails across the sky, experts said. And they are different from the known large comets, such as Halley and this year's Hale-Bopp, of which water is a primary component along with dust and other ingredients. Comets are believed to be pristine remnants from the cloud of gas and dust that formed the solar system. "This is all one whole new population of objects," Frank said. The evidence suggests the small ice comets move in a stream around the sun at more than 25 miles per second, slightly outpacing Earth and most likely also showering other bodies as far out as Jupiter, he said. They could come from a vast disc of comets that astronomers have theorized is circling beyond the planets, Frank said, but their source is basically another huge question mark. The objects must be composed of something other than icy water, or they would never survive the sun's heat as they hurtle toward the inner solar system. Frank has suggested they travel through space cloaked in a protective mantle of carbon that functions like a plastic food wrap, preventing them from visibly losing their substance like ordinary comets with their glowing tails. The black carbon coat would help render such small ice comets virtually undetectable. Water comets had never been proposed in any theory until Frank and his assistant, John Sigwarth, stumbled onto the notion in 1982 as they analyzed data from NASA's Dynamics Explorer satellite. It had taken pictures of Earth in the invisible ultraviolet "dayglow" emitted when sunlight is scattered by the atomic oxygen in the upper atmosphere. But the glowing sunny side of Earth was annoyingly speckled with thousands of puzzling dark spots, according to Frank's 1990 book on the controversy, "The Big Splash." Only after analyzing more than 10,000 images did they conclude that these were not paint flecks on the camera or some other flaw -- but something real out there absorbing the light and creating 30-mile-diameter "holes" in the uniform glow of Earth. Frank gradually eliminated all the explanations except huge vapor clouds from comet-like snowballs. But over the intervening decade, Frank's "holes" were dismissed by most scientists as "noise," not real objects. His pleasure was evident during his presentation today. Now he not only has detailed, extensive images of the "holes" moving below his orbiting cameras, but also, streaking above the cameras, unexpected images of the actual incoming objects. "We were surprised by the massive trails," he said. His team spent more than a decade developing the special three-camera Visible Imaging System (VIS), which he said is unique in the civilian scientific world. Frank was "disputed by just about every other scientist on Earth. He persevered and he's been vindicated. This almost never happens," said NASA space scientist Stephen Maran of Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt. In recent months, VIS has routinely recorded light trails of the objects streaking through Earth's upper atmosphere at a global rate of five to 30 per minute, or thousands per day, or millions per year, Frank said. Also -- using a filter that detects visible light emitted only by fragments of water molecules -- the research shows that the objects consist primarily of water. Space scientist Robert Meier of the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory called the light signature a "kind of `smoking gun' for water." Lead POLAR scientist Robert Hoffman, of Goddard, said at least one military agency with appropriate detectors in orbit has agreed to consider using those assets to study the new phenomenon. He said NASA had already begun to receive other informal proposals for projects to study cosmic rain. SNOWBALLS FROM OUTER SPACE Thousands of snowballs the size of houses are believed to be falling toward Earth each day. At the start of its descent the comet is dark, coated with a carbon mantle. Eventually it hits the Earth as rain. Here is how a typical comet makes its trip. 1. Incoming small comet. 40 feet in diameter 2. Comet breakup. 800 miles from Earth 3. Comet vaporization. Cloud 30 miles in diameter 4. Dispersal of water vapor by winds. Condensation of water vapor into atmosphere 5. Condensation of water vapor into atmosphere. SOURCES: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, University of Iowa(Drawing not to scale) @CAPTION: The trail of an object over the Atlantic Ocean, recorded in 1996 by Visible Imaging System, is seen superimposed over a view of Earth.=20 =A9 Copyright 1997 The Washington Post Company Back to the top =20
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 UFOSearch # 5 part 3 of 3 - Premonitions of The From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 02:26:26 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:32:44 -0400 Subject: UFOSearch # 5 part 3 of 3 - Premonitions of The UFOSearch Val Germann Columbia, Missouri 65203 Premonitions Of The Future, Support For "New Revelations" In Early UFO Material: The Arnold Case part 3 of 3 The Age Of Arnold 1947-1952 The summer of 1947 saw the "flying saucer" explode into public=20 view for the first time. Since there was no general memory of=20 strange things in the sky the "flying saucer" seemed brand new. =20 But the only thing that was new was the unprecedented amount of=20 publicity given to the subject. By the end of the summer more=20 than 90% of the American people knew about the "flying saucers"=20 and that level of recognition has scarcely changed over the last=20 four decades! Today it is obvious that most of our children fully=20 believe in the existence of "extra- terrestrial life," from E.T.=20 to Alien. Are we "fully prepared?" Chronology, The Age Of Arnold =20 June, 1947 Famous pilot Richard Rankin sees 10 discs in a=20 triangular formation over Bakersfield,=20 California. This spectacular sighting got NO=20 national press coverage even AFTER Arnold.=20 Rankin would be visited by Brown and Davidson,=20 the two Air Corps officers who would so soon=20 die in a mysterious crash. With Kenneth Arnold=20 about ready to take off for his flight over=20 Mount Ranier and the people of Roswell, New=20 Mexico, about ready to note a strange object in=20 their skies, the world is about to totally and=20 drastically change. June, 1947 Maury Island incident with three witnesses. Dog=20 killed by debris falling from flying disc.=20 Intelligence connections at several points.=20 Kenneth Arnold involved. Ultra-thin,=20 ultra-strong metal falls, is recovered--just=20 like Roswell. Mystery buggings, disappearing=20 witnesses, strange military officers and=20 stranger physical evidence, all are features of=20 this bizarre case. Definite indications of=20 competing military investigation into the UFO.=20 Two Air Corps pilots die in a plane crash,=20 strange metal on board. The June, 1947 Arnold=20 Sighting kicks off the 'modern' era! World-wide=20 publicity follows rather mundane incident=20 involving objects seen at a distance by a=20 private pilot with no war record. There are=20 several strange intelligence connections here=20 as the public is "introduced" to the UFO. Very=20 important!!!! Arnold was close friends with a=20 "Colonel Paul," who in June, 1947, had just=20 returned from Nuremburg and a role in the=20 war-crimes trials there. This colonel gave=20 Arnold a pistol and Arnold had it with him (in=20 fact slept with it!) throughout the Maury=20 Island business. Arnold also was a deputized=20 Federal Marshal and occasionally ferried=20 Federal prisoners. June, 1947 Coral Lorenzen is living in Douglas, Arizona,=20 and hears of UFO landings near Phelps Dodge=20 mine at Tintown, Arizona. July, 1947 Passengers of the ship Llandovery Castle see=20 giant object hundreds of feet long glide by=20 them at sea off Madagascar. July, 1947 Fourteen-year-old Raymond Fowler sees UFO near=20 Maine hometown, near Bar Harbor. ----, 1947 Nuremburg war-crime trials reveal that Hitler=20 overcame the normal restrictions on government=20 with a maze of "private empires, armies and=20 intelligence services." A cynic might say=20 something like this obtains today in the USA. =20 ----, 1947 Allen Dulles to Europe with the Herter=20 Commission (Herter will be Secretary of State=20 later, was trustee of Rockefeller Foundation),=20 which is a study group for the "Marshal Plan."=20 Dulles meets and likes new Congressman Nixon. July, 1947 The Roswell/Magdelena, N.M., incident. One=20 "flying disc" recovered along with bodies.=20 Press release issued at Roswell AFB to the=20 effect that a `flying saucer' had been found by=20 the Air Corps near Roswell. Actual disc later=20 said recovered on Plains of San Augustin, N.M..=20 Ultra-thin metal recovered, as at Maury Island. ----, 1947 The National Security Act of 1947 will create=20 the Air Force, Central Intelligence Agency and=20 the Department of Defense. Since the Cold War=20 would be permanent the "War Department" was=20 given an Orwellian burial. Truman signs=20 Executive Order 9835, forcing loyalty oaths on=20 scientists for first time. July? 1947 Project Pluto and Blue Teams established to=20 recover UFOs. So says "secret document"=20 unearthed in the 1980s. July, 1947 Clyde Tombaugh, discoverer of Pluto, sees an=20 oval-shaped object climbing through clouds,=20 wobbling as it goes. Also seen by his wife and=20 daughter. Tombaugh's FIRST sighting, and by=20 1952 he will feature heavily in a Life article=20 on flying saucers and will admit to his TWO=20 bizarre sightings. ----, 1947 Minister sees humanoid bodies after becoming=20 lost in far reaches of Chicago's Museum of=20 Science & Industry. Sherm Larson, member of=20 Counter Intelligence Corps and first president=20 of CUFOS, tells Leonard Stringfield (ex-Army=20 intelligence) that the Security Intelligence=20 Corps had its headquarters there during WWII. ----, 1947 Dr. Santorini, developer of fuse for the first=20 A-Bomb, finds his UFO investigation killedafter=20 consultation with Greek government. Later says=20 there is a world-wide conspiracy of silence due=20 to threat from UFOs. Aug., 1947 Gallup says 90% of Americans know of UFOs.=20 UFOsearch believes this was an intended result=20 of a covert plan, a plan designed to induce the=20 public to send in sighting reports, thus=20 revealing the extent of the "UFO" phenomenon. Sept., 1947 Twining Letter reports "UFOs are real." General=20 Twining was head of Air Force's Air Materi=82l=20 Command, AMC, on MJ-12? Sept, 1947 MJ-12 order said to be signed by Harry Truman=20 creating control group for the UFO. Headed by=20 Adm. Hillenkoetter and Vannevar Bush? Secret=20 through about 1984. Yet we have seen that=20 SHAMROCK (domestic cable intercept program) may=20 not have been known to Truman. Would he have=20 been informed about the "UFO" if it were as=20 strange and as serious as it now appears? No.=20 Truman not held in high regard. ----, 1947 Henry Luce's Commission On The Freedom Of The=20 Press heaps harsh criticism on Time's methods=20 (few sources, unattributed quotes and spongy=20 facts) and so Luce repudiates it, refuses to=20 talk about it in any of his magazines. Dec., 1947 Project Saucer is the public "cover" for=20 Project Sign, which remains secret for many=20 years. Astronomer J. Allen Hynek associated=20 with Saucer, whose function is to explain UFOs=20 as natural objects, illusions, etc.. Hynek=20 possibly involved with "UFOs" from mid-1940s=20 when they were "Foo Fighters." He could have=20 been dis-informing on the subject from day one,=20 and was hip-deep in the Top Secret world. Dec., 1947 At first meeting of the National Security=20 Council (19 DEC) Hillenkoetter says CIA should=20 be a covert action group and Italy should be=20 the first target. Lucky Luciano and Michael=20 Sindona were already in place in Sicily,=20 running guns and drugs for the Mob but fighting=20 Communism for the CIA. Dec., 1947 Forrestal meets with higher-ups of ITT, RCA and=20 Western Union, says "the President knows about=20 SHAMROCK." But these men NEVER had any=20 assurance directly from Truman, who had=20 personally signed an order stopping it in 1945. Dec., 1947 Generalissimo Chiang Kai-Shek gives medals to=20 Henry Luce (the generalissimo had appeared on 6=20 Time covers by this time), John D. Rockefeller=20 III and Thomas Lamont (Morgan operative). The=20 business elite of the United States still has=20 its dreams of that "China market." *** End of UFOSearch # 5 part 3 of 3
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 UFOSearch # 5 part 2 of 3 - Premonitions of The From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 02:27:11 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:18:42 -0400 Subject: UFOSearch # 5 part 2 of 3 - Premonitions of The UFOSearch Val Germann Columbia, Missouri 65203 Premonitions Of The Future, Support For "New Revelations" In Early UFO Material: The Arnold Case part 2 of 3 Dahl, two crewmen, his son and their dog were on board Dahl's boat near Maury Island, Tacoma, when SIX flying discs came near. One of them appeared in trouble and ejected material out of a hole in its bottom. Part of this material was like "newspaper, a very light-weight, white-type metal." There were "thousands" of pieces of this and most of it fell in the bay. Also falling was a heavier, lava-like rock. This material fell into the bay, onto the beach and onto the boat. It was hot and steam rose from the water where this material fell. Some of this heavier material hit Dahl's son on the arm, burning him. Other pieces hit the dog, killing it. Photos were taken of this material and of the discs. July 30 - The men picked up some of both types of material. They attempted to radio what they had seen but the radio did not work. The boat had been damaged by the fall of the heavier material. Dahl had to tell his immediate superior, Fred Crisman, what happened. He gave the camera and the recovered material to Crisman, who did not seem to believe Dahl. There was considerable damage to the boat. Dahl's son was treated and released at a local hospital. The next day Dahl got a visit from a gentleman who wanted to talk to him right away. The man looked like "an insurance agent," not a logger. He appeared about 40 years of age. Dahl followed the man and his 1947 Buick sedan to a cafe in the uptown part of Tacoma. After they had entered a small diner and ordered their food the man began to tell Dahl exactly what had happened the day before. Every detail was correct. Dahl sat there, astounded. The man said, "I know more about your experience than you will want to believe." The man said that he, Dahl, should not have seen what he had seen and should never discuss this ever again. Dahl said he was very upset but thought the man was some sort of crackpot, a nut. Dahl said he did not put much stock in what the man had said. When Dahl got to work he found that Crisman had gone out in a boat alone--to Maury Island. Dahl then discussed his experience with several seamen on the docks while he waited for Crisman to return. Early in the afternoon Crisman came back. He did not criticise Dahl and began procedures to repair the boat. At this point Dahl stopped telling his story and invited Arnold to go out to where his secretary lived and where some of the material still remained. Arnold was now totally out of his depth and he admits it. He had never been an "investigator" before. Dahl took him to a small house on a corner in one of the rundown sections of town. The house was in need of paint and looked about "1912 vintage." There was a woman there working with papers and the place was furnished in an old and poor sort of way. Dahl showed Arnold a piece of rock they had been using as an ash tray. He claimed it was from the disc. By now Arnold's head was spinning; it was almost too much to take in. Dahl said that he had gotten an anonymous letter several days after his story had become known. It said that the flying discs were manned by beings like us, only "less dense." The discs were there to protect the earth from outside dark influences. It was the Atomic Bomb and its radiation had caused them to become visible. The letter went on to say that the beings flying the discs were under attack by other beings who were enemies of their people and life on this planet. Dahl was quite upset by this. Dahl said that the "white metal" was all over at Crisman's house and offered to take Arnold there. But Arnold was tired, it had been a long and incredible day. "Tomorrow," he said. Arnold returns to his hotel and goes to bed. July 31 - At 9:30 am Crisman and Dahl wake Arnold up by banging on his door. Crisman can not wait to tell Arnold about what has happened. He says that the boat looked like someone had tried to sink it from the top down with a sledgehammer. Crisman says that he went out to the island and there was a lot of debris there. As he was inspecting it he said that an object like Dahl had seen came out of a cloud and circled his boat. Crisman is a ball of fire, says he was a fighter pilot during World War II, in Burma. (Crisman was much, much more than that!) Crisman has now taken over the story. Dahl is saying nothing. Arnold remembers a clipping in his pocket about metal falling out of flying discs near Mountain Home, Idaho, on July 12. Arnold now wants to see the metal, all of it. He also wants some help. So, he calls Captain Smith in Seattle, who happens to have the afternoon off. Arnold then flies up to get Smith and they arrive back at Tacoma about 3 pm. Crisman and Dahl show up soon after this and Smith talks to them for about an hour and a half--gives them the business. Then Smith says he will stay for a couple of days and help Arnold. Smith asks Crisman to drive him back to Seattle to get his car and some things. He and Crisman leave together. Dahl then leaves to go home to his sick wife. It is now about 5 pm. At 7:30 Smith comes back and takes Arnold out to dinner, at a secluded cafe on the edge of Tacoma that he, Smith, seems to know very well. There they discuss the events of the day. At 8:30 all four men, Arnold and Smith, Dahl and Crisman, are back in the hotel room. Smith wants the following from the men: 1) Samples of both types of material. 2) The photographs. 3) To meet the crew of Dahl's boat. 4) A trip to Maury Island to see what remains. Dahl and Crisman promise that everything will be provided and leave, to return the next morning. Smith discovers that Arnold is carrying a .32 pistol, a present from his friend, Colonel Weiland, who lives in Provo, Utah. Arnold says that at this time he and Smight were very nervous and had the feeling that they were being watched, that there was something dangerous about Crisman and Dahl. There might be Russian agents about, they felt. Arnold says that at this time he still did not dream that the objects he had seen might have been "from another world." July 31 - Just as the two men are going to bed the phone rings. It is a man named Ted Morello of United Press. He tells them that he has been getting calls from someone claiming to know exactly what has been going on their hotel room. To prove this Morello tells Arnold what he has done that day, precisely. Since neither Smith nor Arnold have been talking to the press Arnold assumes that Crisman or Dahl have been leaking. But Morello knows things that had been said in the room when neither Crisman or Dahl were present. The two men spend an hour tearing the room apart, looking for a hidden microphone. They are five stories up in a corner room. They find nothing but they do not change rooms. Aug 1 - The next morning Crisman and Dahl arrive early with fragments of both kinds of metal. They also say that the other crew members are downstairs waiting. Everyone then has breakfast and then goes upstairs to the room to talk. The dark metal is very, very heavy. A piece the size of a hand and only an inch thick is very hard to pick up. The dark fragments are perfectly smooth on one side and burned on the other. The light metal that Crisman hands them seems like aluminum and Arnold knows it is no lighter or thinner that ordinary aircraft metal. This did not correspond to Dahl's description at all. But it does have strange square rivets in it. Crisman does not have Dahl's photos with him but says he will show them later in the day. Smith and Arnold decide to call in the boys from Air Force intelligence, sure that just saying this would smoke out Dahl and Crisman. But Crisman is enthusiastic. Dahl says he will have nothing to do with intelligence, that the whole business will end up in bad luck for everybody. Arnold then calls Lt. Brown but he refuses to take the call in his office. Instead he calls back later from an OFF BASE pay phone. Arnold tells Brown what has been happening. Brown says to sit tight and that he and Davidson will be there as soon as possible. Everybody sits down to wait. Two telephone calls come in, one of them from Ted Morello who said his mysterious informer has been calling, staying on the line for no more than 20 seconds at a time. Then Paul Lance, reporter for the Tacoma Times, calls. They refuse to talk to him so he comes to the room. Smith frisks him and then throws him out. They all know that the Air Force intelligence officers will be there soon. Dahl says he is going to a movie and leaves. Smith and Crisman leave, for a private conversation, Arnold says. This is the second time the two of them have a "private conversation." Aug 1 - At 4:30 pm the officers arrive. Davidson and Brown come up to the room. Davidson shows Arnold a drawing of an object, an object that looks like the one Arnold had never talked about. Brown says that this type of object is "authentic" and they had just received several photographs of this object at Hamilton Field. The original negatives had been flown to Washington, D.C., Davidson says. Arnold tells the two officers about the "other object" he saw on the 24th of June, the one with the double curve. Crisman now tells the officers his and Dahl's story, taking over two hours to do it. Then there is general discussion as the officers handle the material. Crisman says he will get the box of material from his home and give it to the officers. It is midnight. Suddenly the two airmen decide to leave, to fly back to Hamilton Field that very night. The B-25 they were flying had to be back the next morning for Air Force day, they say. It had just been overhauled. The two officers have been flying all over the area interviewing people in their investigation. Arnold is feeling bad. He feels the two men think Crisman and Dahl's story is a hoax. They are not interested in the material. Arnold thinks about telling them about the letter that Dahl had received about the flying discs but decides not to do that. Just as the officers are ready to leave Crisman pulls up with his box of fragments, putting them into their car. Arnold gets a quick look at the fragments. They are not the same as those up in the hotel room. Arnold says he was mixed up and that this was "the screwiest situation he could imagine." Arnold never finds out much about Crisman, where he lives, whether he is married or not. When Smith and Arnold get back to the hotel room the phone rings. It is Ted Morello telling them everything that has just happened. Obviously there is a bug but the two men still do not change rooms, perhaps because they can't. They go to bed. Questions: What happened to the crewmen of Dahl's boat? The reader never finds out. Nor do we ever hear of Dahl's son or the dog. Arnold is doing his best but he is not, and never will be, a detective. Aug 2 - This is to be the last day of the "investigation." Smith and Arnold are to meet Crisman and Dahl at 10 o'clock and go out to Maury Island on Dahl's boat. At 9:20 the phone rings. It is Chrisman telling Arnold that the B-25 carrying Davidson and Brown had "blown up and crashed" at about 1:30 that morning. Arnold says he was too weak to stand up, was white as a sheet. The same for Captain Smith. Smith calls McChord field and learns that two men did parachute out of the plane but neither one was Brown or Davidson. Soon Crisman is at the hotel room, very excited. Arnold calls Palmer in Chicago and says he is through with the whole business, that two men have been killed and a bomber lost because of it and he, Arnold, has had enough. Aug 2 - Crisman interrupts this conversation from time to time. Palmer says that maybe enough is enough. He warns Arnold not to carry any of the fragments in his plane. Palmer then says that if he or Smith want to keep any of the metal they should mail fragments of it to themselves or to him. Palmer advises Arnold not to let Smith take any fragments, if possible. Then Crisman talks to Palmer and verifies that the plane has gone down. Palmer later tells Arnold that he recognized Crisman's voice as one he had heard several times before on mysterious long distance calls. Crisman had sent Palmer a letter saying he had been "rayed" by the "underground men." He had also warned Palmer to "lay off" the Shaver Mysteries. Arnold was very suspicious of Crisman by now. Crisman had told Arnold that he knew of Palmer through "Venture Magazine." But Arnold knew there was no such magazine but Palmer's company was called "Venture Publishing." The United Press building was right across the street from the hotel. That's where Ted Morello worked. Morello had an interview with one of the two men who had jumped from the B-25, a soldier "hitching" a ride. About 25 minutes after take-off the left engine caught fire. Lt. Brown came back and ordered the soldier to jump, all but throwing him out of the plane. The bomber then continued to the south, on fire, all the while the soldier floated down on his parachute. Only one other parachute was seen. Later that morning Smith and Arnold go down to the docks with Crisman to look at the boat. It is not the same boat, nothing about it is right. The engine does not start. Arnold is by now totally disgusted with the whole affair. He and Smith go back to the hotel not knowing what to think. The phone soon rings. It is Ted Morello who says his mysterious informer is predicting things. The mystery voice says that Captain Smith will be called to Wright Field on the fifth of August, 1947, that Kenneth Arnold's plane has been shot at on numerous occasions, that Captain Smith's airliner has been shot at on several occasions, that the B-25 bomber had been shot down by a 20mm cannon, that a recent crash at La Guardia had been caused by the gust locks being left on to sabotage it and that the crash in Denmarck that had killed singer Grace Moore had been sabotaged also. Arnold later found out that the gust lock cause for the La Guardia crash was true. Captain Smith was never called to Wright Field, or so he said. Arnold later learned that there was no distress call from the B-25 and that no one could figure out why Brown and Davidson did not bail out of the plane. The bomber fell near Kelso, Washington. Arnold, in distress, calls his brother long distance and asks him to take their mother out into her yard and tell her that he, Arnold, felt in extreme danger. Arnold could not explain why he had done this and is ashamed to have done it. It seems senseless. But Arnold indicates he needed some help and knew that his mother would pray for him. He makes a similiar call to his wife and she becomes very worried as well. Arnold fears phone, room bugs. Tacoma Times, August 2, 1947, headline: "Sabotage Hinted In Crash Of Army Bomber At Kelso." Written by Paul Lance. Stated that a mysterious informer had told The Times that the plane had been shot down or sabotaged to prevent "flying disc" material from being transported to Hamilton Field. Two enlisted men, Sergeant Elmer L. Taff and Technician Fourth Grade Woodrow D. Mathews parachuted. Plane was carrying "classified material." Paul Lance would die quite mysteriously soon after this affair ended. Arnold takes this paper upstairs, shows it to Smith. He now says he is even more scared. They try to call Crisman and Dahl. No answer from either. They finally find Dahl in a movie theatre where they knew he spent a lot of his time. Dahl says Crisman had called him earlier and said he was leaving town. Just then Morello calls and tells Arnold that the mysterious voice had just told him that Crisman had boarded an Army bomber for Alaska that very afternoon. Arnold becomes worried about Dahl, whom he still thinks of as a more or less "innocent" bystander. Arnold knows that he and Smith were almost the last people to see Davidson and Brown alive and that the police or military intelligence would be on the scene any minute. Dahl seems to be resigned and goes back to his movie, saying he would be at the theater in case he is needed. Arnold and Smith go to see Ted Morello at his office. He tells the two men that the B-25 of Davidson and Brown was under armed guard every minute it was in Tacoma. He says, "You are involved in something it is beyond our power here to find anything about. Get out of town until this blows over. I don't want to see anything happen to you fellows if I can help it." Morello tells them of a UPI story concerning Dick Rankin, the famous pilot. Rankin had said that Davidson and Brown were hot on the trail of something and that he (Rankin) thought was endangering their lives. The press release was made by Rankin with the intention of warning Brown and Davidson, Morello said. Dick Rankin was a world famous pilot reputed to have "extrasensory perception." He had once had a dream that there was something wrong with the tail of his plane. He refused to fly until it was checked. When the fabric was removed several control wires were in fact damaged. Arnold says that he had a lot of respect for any opinion of Rankin due to his skill as a pilot. Smith and Arnold go back to their hotel room and wait for the police or whomever. The phone rings several times and they talk to David Johnson in Idaho and to The Chicago Tribune. Aug 3 - The waiting continues. Nothing happens. They now have nothing but several dozen "fragments" still scattered around their hotel room. Crisman is gone. Davidson and Brown are dead. Morello is telling them to get out of town. Their room is bugged. Dahl comes by early in the afternoon and does not say much. Arnold calls the airport and inquires after his plane. They still expect the military to contact them. Smith says he has to get back to his airline soon or lose his position. Morale has fallen to an all-time low. Arnold says that, yes, all of this did happen. Aug 4 - Bright and Clear. Arnold photographs Maury Island which is now visible out of his hotel window. At 9 o'clock Smith and Arnold meet Dahl and his secretary at a cafe for breakfast. Smith makes a phone call, comes back and says he will be gone for an hour. Tells Arnold to go back to the hotel and wait. Arnold very upset to be left alone. Waits hours. At 2 o'clock Smith brings a Major Sander of A-2, Army Intelligence, McChord Field. Arnold tells him the whole story. The major says this could be a hoax. He says that the B-25 crash was just what it appeared to be, an accident. Arnold disagrees but is relieved to have the Major take the case. They could all go home now. Major Sander picks up the fragments in the hotel room, including one Arnold had put in his pocket as a souvenier. Sander says he doesn't want to leave any fragments behind even though they are fake. He asks for and gets Arnold's fragment. He wraps them up in a hotel towel and puts them into his car. It is a civilian car. Sander then takes Arnold and Smith out to a smelting company. There are piles of stuff that look similiar to what Crisman and Dahl have shown Smith and Arnold. But when they get close Arnold realizes that the stuff in the piles looks like what Crisman had given Brown and Davidson, not like what had just been taken from the hotel room. Sander will not let Smith and Arnold compare the stuff in his car to the slag on the ground. Sander drives the two men back to their hotel and leaves. Arnold realizes on the way back that the smelter was a long way off the beaten track and had many piles of metal. Sander had driven right to the one that had metal similiar to that in question. Something is screwy. But Arnold is by now glad to be out of it. Smith and Arnold check out of the hotel. Arnold wants to say goodbye to Dahl, who said he would be working at his secretary's house that day. The two men drive over there. The house is empty, the screen door ajar and there are cobwebs across the main entrance. The windows and door knobs were the same as Arnold remembers but the house looked as though it had not been lived in for months. Arnold feels as if a bucket of cold ice-water has been dumped on him. He gets panicky. He thought things like this only happened in dreams. Could he have had a visit to Dreamland? The house was empty, with dirt, dust and cobwebs everywhere. There was a severe housing shortage in Tacoma at this time and neither Smith nor Arnold could imagine how any house could stay vacant three months in that area. Harold Dahl has disappeared. Even the phone company would not admit his existence to Arnold even though he (Arnold) had looked the man's number up in the phone book the day he got to his hotel. Smith drives Arnold to the airport where they inspect his plane. It is OK. It was going to be a four-hour flight to Boise and he would get there about dark. At Pendleton, Oregon, Arnold stops and gets gas, never straying far from his plane. After filling up he rolls out to the runway, checks the tower and then begins to take off. At fifty feet his engine stops cold. By a miracle he gets the plane down, breaking a wing and one landing gear but not injuring himself. His fuel switch had been turned off, how Arnold has no idea. Thus comes to an end the strage saga of Kenneth Arnold and the Maury Island mystery. As you can see, it was a lot more than met the eye. The situation is one of extreme wierdness and many questions remain unanswered: 1) How did the hotel room get reserved for Arnold, at the most expensive place in town? This took some money, something those with unaccountable funding seem to have in quantity. And it struck Arnold funny that he got so famous so fast. 2) Notice the reference to "newspaper-thick" metal, as at Roswell. Last summer (1994) the Air Force released a report on the Roswell business. In that report it was stated that General Vandenberg was NOT investigating the Roswell business at the beginning of July, 1947. No, he was investigating a UFO event that took him to Washington state! Most interesting. 3) Arnold never did find out about about the injured boy or the dog that was killed. Most disappointing. 4) The business with the house of the "secretary" is most strange. Whomever to set that place up had some money and once again, who has all sorts of money for all sorts of odd things? 5) And what about the strange actions of Captain Smith, who seemed to know Crisman and kept disappearing with him for long periods? Crisman now known with certainty to have been some sort of agent for someone, military intelligence or OSS/CIG/CIA/FBI. 6) Why did Lt. Brown refuse to take Arnold's call on base? This is most strange and hints at competing military investigations of the Maury Island affair and of UFOs in general. Why else would he be worried about a bug on HIS phone or being overheard. Could it have been that he and Davidson were investigating something they were not supposed to be investigating? 7) Why didn't the two officers bail out of the plane when they had every chance to do so? What could they have been carrying that was so important they would risk their lives to get that plane down intact? Could it have been something not known to their nominal superiors, something they had found or been given in Tacoma? And why did those looking into the crash never get in touch with Arnold or Smith? All of this is most suspicious. 8) Who was Ted Morello, whose office just happened to be across the street from Arnold's mysterious hotel room? We know now that many "journalists" work for intelligence agencies. For instance, Richard Helms worked for UPI in Europe in the 1930s and a UPI bureau chief in Chile helped IT&T get rid of Allende in the early 1970s. Morello looks to us like an agent of some sort. 9) Who was this "Major Sander?" He seemed to know a lot about slag heaps in the Seattle/Tacoma area and have a real interest in hoax material. Was Smith gone so much of the time with Crisman and Sander because they were together cooking up the cover story that would be used to discredit Arnold? We think it's possible. There is no doubt, the UFO business was very, very strange in several ways right from the very beginning. There was strong military and intelligence community interest right from the start and the implication is that these entities were in competition for the same scarce information. There were also bizarre psychic or paranormal elements to the UFO business right from day one. The Maury Island affair and the original Arnold sighting were much, much more than just a nuts-and-bolts apparition. In its own way these two incidents were just as out and out strange as anything occuring today. Plus ca change. . . In the final analysis a lot of people people were interested in what Kenneth Arnold was doing in the summer of 1947--and they had a lot of money at their disposal. On top of that two men died taking part. And swirling around these incidents were rumors of aliens interacting with mankind, rumors that have "resonances" for those of us interested in "UFOs" today. This theme will be developed further in later segments of this series. UFOSearch # 5: part 2 of 3, continues in part 3
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 30 UFOSearch # 5 part 1/3 - Premonitions of The From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 02:34:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:16:54 -0400 Subject: UFOSearch # 5 part 1/3 - Premonitions of The This is the fifth of the series of essays by UFOSearch that I am posting to UFOUpDates. Several of these essays were posted in the past in the alt.paranet.ufo USENET newsgroup. There are approximately 25 essays in all. I am posting these with the permission of the author, Val Germann. Unfortunately the author is not presently available on the Internet. However, if you would like to correspond with the author I have arranged a temporary internet email address that I will use for forwarding the correspondence to him. This is not a permanent email address. The address is: ufosearch@pipeline.com I hope you find these essays as interesting and thought provoking as I did. Commentary: This essay is a long one so you might want to fire up your printer and save yourself the eyestrain. Don't say I didn't warn you. The length of this essay prevented emailing it in its entirety, it has been divided into three parts, each is idenitified in the subject header. If you would like the undivided text please email me with your email address only. Here is something for those with an interest in so called beginnings of the "modern era" of the UFO phenomenon and Kenneth Arnold's role in it . As a means of analysis the author of these essays, Val Germann, originally wrote a chronology for his research and then the essay. I have combined the essay and its relevant chronology into one article for this posting to UFOUpdates. I think that Val did some some insightful, original, research in this essay. Readers of "Alien Agenda" by Jim Marrs I think will find that Marrs borrowed for his chapter on Kenneth Arnold from this essay. Marrs does however pick up the ball and move it down the field in his investigation of the involvement of the intelligence services, in particular his investigation of Fred Crisman. Marrs documents that he was an intelligence agent. Oh, and speaking of intelligence, perhaps you are not aware that not only was Hoyt S. Vandenberg, Air Force Chief of Staff, but also on leaving that position became the Director of Central Intelligence, DCI, from January 23 to June10, 1946. He was succeeded as the DCI by RAdm. Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter, USN who held the position of DCI from June 10, 1946 until 1 May 1947. These dates were obtained from the www page of the Office of the Director of Central Intelligence http://www.odci.gov an excellent open source of information. This is the same RAdm. Hillenkoetter who Donald Keyhoe was to recruit?? to the board of directors of NICAP, and the same RAdm. Hillenkoetter who was to sink, literally with this abrupt and unexplained resignation, the arrangements that Donald Keyhoe was making for a Congressional hearing on UFOs. Those who argue that the intelligence agencies have not been involved in the UFO phenomemon until the Robertson panel was convened in 1953 are either innocently unaware of the history of their own field of interest or guilefully contrive as the debunkers do, to omit mentioning these historical facts (on the sound theory that if YOU don't know it they won't inform you because one is too busy or lazy to research independently, and besides they claim to be an authority on the subject and the more authoritative sounding the source the more difficult it is to keep from being credulous). By the way it was also Hoyt S. Vandenberg who ordered the destruction of a report, the Estimate of the Situation, which was produced by the first known governmental UFO investigation, Project Sign which had concluded that the best evidence indicated a extraterrestrial origin for UFOs. Certainly he was entitled to his opinion, rejecting it on the grounds that the authors had not proven their case. Yet months after the report was declassified, all copies of it were ordered burned. Burning classified materials is the norm but it is not the norm for materials to be ordered to be burned after they have been declassified for several months as this report was. No authenticated copy of this document has been located to date. This reminds me of what Frank Scully had to say in his preface to Behind The Flying Saucers: It completely destroys American sportsmanship standards when we, the people, stick to the rules while an opposing team of censors who have usurped our rights are permitted, by their own hand-picked referee, to pull rabbit-punches on defensive play, hamstring us from the rear if we seem to be running well in an open field, and even machine-gun the ball in mid-air if we are kicking an almost certain field goal. Or burning the report after it has been declassified, a real smoking gun so to speak. Now on to the essay and its accompanying chronology... Gary Alevy -------------------------------------------------------------- UFOSearch Val Germann Columbia, Missouri 65203 Premonitions Of The Future, Support For "New Revelations" In Early UFO Material: The Arnold Case First, A Little History The last few years have been a period of extreme turmoil in the world of the ufologist and ufology, whatever they are. Ideas and concepts that had been laughed out of the field forty years ago have returned, with an absolute vengeance. UFOs, which a short time ago were just "things in the sky," albeit with an occasional back-channel reference to "crashed discs" or "little men," and with a slight nod to the "abduction" problem, have now taken on an aura of unprecedented threat, at least to some. These are not happy times for those people studying the UFO. A monster is out of the closet, looking around the room, and everyone wants to put it back out of sight. For most of us this era can trace its roots back to the mid- 1960s when the Hill story and the so-called Snippy Case brought abductions and animal mutilations to the public record. But the "threat" level was kept low. Then in 1973 the cattle deaths began to be reported, in the thousands. But no one was ready to accept what these might mean and mainstream ufology (almost a contradiction in terms) went on pretty much as before. Donald Keyhoe had worked overtime to quiet the "scare stories" (including what he called "rape stories") that had begun to appear in 1965. By 1980 and the success of Close Encounters the crisis had passed. But in the mid-1970s Raymond Fowler and Leonard Stringfield had gone back to the future and had begun to put "crashed discs" and "little men" back into the public record. Reports of this type had been hooted out of court way, way back in the 1950s, in the wake of Scully, Adamski, Fry & company. Fowler and Stringfield were ridiculed for what they reported, their sources almost always refusing publicity and most of the stories just too strange for the main body of keep-them-flying Ufologists. Never mind that if we were being "visited" by another intelligence the chances of that visit NOT seeming strange were just about nil. In 1980 The Roswell Incident saw print and fell like a rose petal down the Grand Canyon. Few seemed to care. Ditto for Linda Howe's television program Strange Harvest, concerning the cattle deaths in the West. At this same time Raymond Fowler went one step further with The Andreasson Affair, which should have started some things rolling. But that book did not seem to "resonate," nor did Fowler's follow-up effort, Phase Two, in 1982. In between these two Fowler published his Casebook Of A UFO Investigator which outlined CIA machinations in Donald Keyhoe's NICAP as well as, significantly, both the author and his family's UFO experiences. These were hints of things to come. Another harbinger was Jacques Vallee's much criticized late- 1970s book Messengers of Deception. In this work the author claimed that all UFO groups were shot full of intelligence operatives and that there was a secret agenda behind the "UFO Phenomenon," an agenda that he, Vallee, did not like at all. Of course, he did not mention that his mentor and good friend Allen Hynek had about as many "intelligence connections" as anyone. No, Vallee was worried about the "anti-science" and "reactionary" activity behind some of those involved with the ufo and indicated that there was much more to be read between the lines. But Vallee could not or would not spell out what he meant. His book didn't resonate, at least not immediately. As the 1980s went on Stringfield continued to self-publish what he was receiving from mainly military sources. The obvious conclusion from these accounts was a kind of government/alien cooperation. In one case the military were said to have had medical personnel waiting for a "crashing disc" and then wisked the strange little crewmen away as soon as their craft hit the ground. Another incident told of an alien trying to break INTO a military installation and being shot down by a guard. But Stringfield published no speculation and did not extrapolate at all upon what the secret sources had given him. This writer had the pleasure of speaking with Stringfield several times over the last few years and found him to be a great gentleman. He will be missed by all of us investigating this phenomenon. In 1984 the book Clear Intent put the government's involvement in UFOs out in the open for all to see. But this material did not "resonate" either and it was left to a bestselling author and a famous airline pilot to finally blow the lid off the story. Things were never going to be the same again. In 1987 Whitley Strieber's Communion hit like a bomb. Your humble servant, who had put his UFO interest on hold for several years, walked into a local book store and saw the cover of Communion on the rack. I was well, stunned, for some reason and immediately bought and read the book. Communion was a catylst for me even though I do not believe I am an abductee or any such thing. Anyway, at this same time the so-called "MJ-12" material, spoken of in hushed terms by the authors of The Roswell Incident, was finally released in document form (in England!) by the author of Above Top Secret, Timothy Good. By now the pot was boiling hard and an explosion was on the way. It happened late in 1987 when John Lear, whose father founded Lear Instruments, and who himself was a pilot extraordinaire, published his first "letter" detailing some sort of government-alien "deal" including genetic experiments, technology transfers and even some terminations of inconvenient people. Then, in 1988, Strieber's Transformation came out with a section reinforcing some of Lear's contentions and speaking of mysterious leaks about government-alien deals in the early 1980s. The stage was set for the second Lear Letter of October, 1988, which outlined some of the programs set up by the military to handle a "deal," one that had been worked out in the early 1960s and which by 1980 or so HAD GONE BAD. About this time a widely seen television special called UFO Coverup featured government employees speaking of little men living in Nevada and telling our government about their civilization. They were small, with large heads and lived 350 of our years. They liked ice cream. There was a hint of some kind of cooperation in this program but the unpleasant elements were nowhere to be seen. The show could be viewed, and was so viewed by many, as an anti-Lear innoculation since the general tone was almost, well, friendly, with friendly little "visitors" here to help us out and fill us in on how the Universe was doing. Hmmm. Early in 1989 Linda Howe published Alien Harvest which once and for all showed the cattle mutilations to be something totally out of the ordinary. Here in Boone county (MO) there had been a truly horrific run of animal deaths late in 1988 and so Howe's book hit us very hard. For us the "threat level" was now reaching high heights indeed and there was little out there that might bring it down. The debunkers, Klass and Oberg, both with heavy Pentagon connections, were working hard but it hardly mattered, things were moving so fast. Fall, 1989, saw Majestic, Strieber's third book, hit print. This was a novelization of something like the Lear scenario and it contained a shocker--the "greys" were in fact altered human fetuses! But, of course, this was pure fiction, thank God, though if it were true it certainly would explain a few things. During this same time period Bill Cooper published his Secret Government, setting out a different view of a government/alien deal, one that postulated an "end of the world" scenario and a sort of "blackmail" on the part of "them" against our economic and social betters. We could sort of get into this since we thought that if "others" were here from the great beyond they were likely not hanging around for our benefit. And, anyway, this (believe it or not) smacked of what Donald Keyhoe had been writing, circa 1953! Finally, in September of 1989 the TV show Unsolved Mysteries exposed millions of Americans to the so-called Roswell Scenario. The sober tone of this show (and the use of eyewitnesses whenever possible) set in motion events that are still rolling forward today. I believe that Unsolved Mysteries has done more to raise the credibility of the UFO with the general public than any other single factor, ever, period. But Unsolved Mysteries was not talking about the single element that united all the new revelations -- planetary disaster. Strieber, Cooper, Fowler, Jacobs and others all were getting and publishing information (or disinformation, if you desire) which depicted the end of either the current social dispensation and/or the whole human world. This came against a background of the end of the Cold War and the turning down of the nuclear threat, a nightmare that all of humanity had been living with for nearly two generations. But in its place was coming another bad dream, environmental disaster, driven by human populations that had nearly tripled during the lifetime of this writer, who is not old. Stacked on top of this were things like the so-called "Fatima Prophecy" which had been said for decades to be concerned with the end of the world, and the current "apparition" in Yugoslavia, which was said to be about the same sort of thing. For this writer, a Catholic with close relatives giving me running commentaries on what was happening in Yugoslavia, it all was more than a little disturbing. Into this supercharged atmosphere of mid-1990 came Raymond Fowler's book, The Watchers, a blockbuster which marked, for this writer, the beginning of a new era. The continuation of the human race was in doubt and the mechanism was to be, not nuclear war, not disease, but reproductive failure! What a shocker that was. But it has since been backed up by reports from scientists worldwide on a 50% decline in human sperm counts since 1940, half a decade before the world began to be flooded with clorinated hydrocarbons. Was this what the fuss had always been about? If it was, then a few things actually made some sense, or seemed to, in a new and frightening way. More later. But no matter, the question was and is -- how much of this UFO material could be accepted even as a basis for a hypothesis? Was it all horsehockey, on its face, as many would say, or were there enough connections to the known world to support further work in this area? We wanted to know and in pursuit of some answers to these questions we began a literature search and went back and looked at some of the very earliest works concerning the flying saucer. The goal was to assemble a complete chronology of events and to address a follow-up group of questions, ones that we hoped would get at the heart of the matter. They questions included: 1) Was the early UFO era strictly a "nuts & bolts" affair, as we had been led to believe, or were there strange references to little men, crashed discs and communication with "others" from the very beginning? We had every reason to suspect that the earliest information would in many ways be the best since it would represent views relatively uncontaminated by later and very well known books and movies, radio and TV shows. 2) Were there strange "psychological/paranormal effects" observed early in the UFO era or were these later additions? 3) What, if any, was the involvement of the uniformed military and the intelligence community at the very beginning? If there was very little or none then one could make a case for their involvment only as a result of public hysteria and its feared effects on the morale of the American people in the Cold War. Upon the answers to the above questions would depend our final read on the "new revelations." In pursuit of these answers it was only appropriate that we began at the beginning, that is, with the Arnold case. What do you remember about Kenneth Arnold? That his sighting set off the so-called "modern era?" That he was a private pilot who saw several objects over the mountains in Washington state and said they skipped "like saucers across a pond," thus the name "flying saucers? That he was involved in the Maury Island incident, a hoax perpetrated by the infamous Crisman, Dahl and Palmer? Is that what you remember? That is all you probably know about Kenneth Arnold because that is about all most widely available UFO literature will tell you. Ufology is not an academic discipline and there are no archives. Each researcher is on his own, re-inventing the wheel, so to speak. This writer was lucky enough to have a friend from the Chicago area (Palmer's home town) send him Arnold's 1952 book, The Coming Of The Saucers, published with Ray Palmer. Reading this book opened my eyes in a big way. I realized that there was much, much more to the so-called "Arnold sighting" and the Maury Island affair than I had been told. They were both truly bizarre and deserved to be looked at again in the light of what we now know now. I was shocked at what Arnold had written. Who was Kenneth Arnold? Well, he was an Eagle Scout, no mean feat in his day or any other day. He was a field representative for the American Red Cross for many years. He was an All-State Football player in 1932 and 1933 in his home state of North Dakota. He enrolled at the University of Minnesota in the mid-1930s with the dream of becoming a football coach but a serious knee injury put an end to that. He left school in 1936 with $57.00 in cash and a Model-T Ford car. He took up selling and by the beginning of World War II was combining a boyhood interest in flying with his job. He began selling fire control equipment throughout the Northwest, flying from small town to small town to do it. By 1944 he was flying over 1,000 hours per year and was a member of an "aerial posse" for the Ada County, Idaho, Sheriff. He was also a relief Federal U.S. Marshall and occasionally flew Federal prisoners to McNeil Island Federal Penitentiary. He was an interesting fellow. First and foremost, Arnold was a pilot and a good one. He regularly flew into and out of tiny, dangerous airfields. Sometimes he flew into a field that was just a field, literally. He depended upon a small, single-engined plane for his very life. He was meticulous, careful and alert. The overwhelming impression one gets from his book is of a solid citizen, honest and unafraid. Arnold was brave enough to not be overly concerned about what people thought of him, something rebounding much to his credit today. On June 24, 1947 Kenneth Arnold was flying over Mineral, Washington, at 9,000 feet when he saw a procession of very strange objects flying from north to south in front of his plane. He was amazed at their speed and made very reliable estimates of that speed and also of their size and altitude. They were very reflective and flew slightly erratically. One of the objects was very different from the others. It had a strange double curve at the rear and a light-colored spot on top. The objects together made a powerful impression. When Arnold arrived at his destination of Yakima, Washington, he told the airport manager and several other people about his sighting. One of them said, "Ah, it's just a flight of those guided missiles out of Moses Lake." Arnold's next stop was at Pendleton, Oregon, and when he got there he had a committee of interested people waiting for him. Before long he was telling a large group of airfield hangers-on all about his sighting. But he did not mention that one of the objects was different. Arnold ended his day by talking to the editor of the East Oregonian newspaper and it was he who put the story on the wires. Both Arnold and the editor agreed that the government had taken this way of introducing the world to a new method of flight. In a matter of hours Kenneth Arnold was known to the entire country and the "flying saucer" craze of 1947 was under way. His story was, for some reason, picked up by newspapers and radio stations all over the USA and around the world. Three days later Arnold would say that there would soon be a flying saucer in every garage in the United States. When Arnold arrived back at his home in Boise, Idaho, the editor of the Idaho Statesman newspaper came to call. After this conversation Arnold began to wonder if the objects he saw were really military after all. The editor seemed to doubt Arnold's story and told him that there was nothing in the possession of the United States that could do what Arnold said these objects did. We now know that this editor, David Johnson, was supplying information to the Air Force and other arms of government. Johnson told Arnold that he had sent a report to Wright Field in Ohio. But he didn't tell him that he was in fact assembling an intelligence dossier on Arnold, one that included what amounts to the beginnings of an FBI check. He provided both the Air Force and whomever was behind "Project Sign" with information about the character and background of Kenneth Arnold. He was an intelligence agent. His name is to be seen, barely, at the bottom of a document released in 1969 when the Air Force terminated Project Blue Book. On July 3rd a good friend of Arnold's called. This was Colonel Paul Wieland who had just returned from Germany where he had been a judge at the Nuremburg trials and had investigated the Malmedy massacre. (Interesting, is it not, the friends this free-lance pilot and fire equipment salesman had?) But no matter, Arnold and "Colonel Paul," as Arnold called him, discussed his sighting at some length on a fishing trip they took to Sekiu, Washington. But the fishing was horrible as thousands of salmon were dying in the area from a mysterious "red tide." Arnold flew over the area and said, "it looked as if a gob of something had fallen from the sky, a jelly-like substance that was sticking to the salmon, poisoning them." Those were strange times. Arnold and the Colonel flew home. Then on July 5th Arnold and the Colonel were at Boeing Field, Seattle, when they heard about Captain E.J.Smith and his co-pilot who had made a spectacular sighting the day before. In the papers that day there was also a photograph taken by a Coast Guard Yeoman of a flying object virtually identical to the ones Arnold had reported. It had been taken in the Seattle area. Arnold went to the offices of the newspaper to see the original of the photo and there met Captain Smith and his co-pilot. They hit it off well. The photos must have been pure dynamite because on the 10th of July a nationwide ban would be said to have been placed on them. These photos are reproduced in Arnold's book but the country at large never got to see the Coast Guardsman's flying saucer, which was identical to eight of those Arnold had seen. On July 15th Arnold got a letter from Ray Palmer. He says that if he had known at this time who Palmer was he would not have answered the letter. He thought that the kind of material Palmer published was a gross waste of time for anybody to read. Ray Palmer and his Amazing Stories were still running a series of yarns that began in the mid-1940s and were called the Shaver Mysteries, concerning two groups of aliens living on and under the Earth with man. That should sound vaguely familiar to anyone current in what passes for ufology today. In any event, Palmer wanted Arnold to write down his experiences for him and offered to pay. Arnold did not particularly care about the money and sent Palmer a copy of what he had sent the Army Air Corps at Wright Field. About a week later came a letter asking Arnold to investigate a strange incident said to have occurred in the Seattle area. Fragments of a flying disc were said to have fallen. Arnold put the letter aside. Then, about the 25th of July, two representatives from A-2, Military Intelligence, Fourth Air Force, visited Arnold. They were Lt. Frank Brown and Cpt. William Davidson. They took Arnold and his wife Doris out to dinner and were very kind and considerate of Ken's position. They said they did not know what the so-called flying saucers were. Arnold then mentioned that Captain Smith was due in at Boise airport later in the evening and it wasn't long before the Arnolds and the two officers were on their way to the airport. When they got there they found David Johnson, the newspaper editor who had first de-briefed Arnold, waiting for them. Just a coincidence, you understand. Arnold learned that the two intelligence men had flown over in an A-26 bomber specially to talk to him that evening. Just a coincidence. Arnold and his new friends spoke to Smith and his co-pilot for a few minutes and then left for the Arnolds' home. There Ken gave them his account of his sighting complete with drawings. But he did not tell them that one of the objects he saw was different from the others. He held this one item back. Arnold had not even told his wife about this "different" object. For some reason he thought it would diminish the story and anyway, it was probably not that important. Wrong. Then the intelligence officers left, asking Arnold not to discuss the sighting with "outsiders." The next day Arnold was visiting again with David Johnson, who said that he had been asked to supply a report to Wright Field. Arnold asked him if he should take up Palmer's offer. Johnson said he had never heard of Palmer but it would be silly not to take his money. Johnson said that Arnold should write and ask for $200 and see what happened. Arnold wrote, and Palmer sent him $200, to the surprise of both Arnold and Johnson. In 1947, $200 was not trivial. Thus did Arnold turn investigator, at the insistence of an acquaintance known to be supplying intelligence information. On July 29, 1947, Kenneth Arnold took off for Tacoma, Washington, to look into the Maury Island incident. He did not file a flight plan. No one but his wife knew he was going. His plane did not have a radio transmitter. Half way there he stopped in a cow pasture to refuel. He had left on the spur of the moment as only a true independent businessman can do. Over Union, Oregon, he saw a strange group of "brass colored objects that looked like ducks" coming straight for him. He tried to photograph them with a movie camera. They appeared to be round, rather rough on top and with a "spot" on the upper surface of each one. They were moving at a speed of several hundred miles an hour. Arnold later found that several people on the ground near Union had seen these same objects. Late that afternoon Arnold arrived at Chehalis, Washington, and after some thought decided to fly on to Tacoma. He told no-one of his plans. Here, in chronology format, is an account of Arnold's "investigation." July 29 - Arnold arrives and tries to get a hotel room in Tacoma, is at first unsuccessful. Finally, in desperation, calls the most expensive place in town. Finds that there is already a room reserved for "Kenneth Arnold!" After some discussion with the clerk he accepts the room. Later he cannot find the clerk who he talked to when he accepted the room. July 30 - Arnold calls one of the men mentioned by Palmer, Harold A. Dahl. His name is in the book. This Mr. Dahl tells Arnold to go home, says that he, Dahl, has had nothing but "tough luck" ever since this business began. Says that it would be better if everyone forgot it. But finally agrees to talk. Dahl comes to Arnold's room, is 6'2" tall, a lumberjack. He is not at all anxious to talk. Says that since he saw the flying discs on June 21, 1947, he had lost his job, his wife had become ill, he had lost much expensive property, his boat had sprung mysterious leaks and its engine would not start. Dahl made his living in part scavenging lost "booms" of logs in the waters near Tacoma. But Dahl had been master of a Harbor Patrol Boat at the time he had his sighting. Dahl tells his story. UFOSearch # 5: part 1 of 3, continues in part 2
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B & B Affair From: starbaby@nmaa.org (Alexa Cameron) Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:56:18 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:05:40 -0400 Subject: Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B & B Affair >From: EdKomarek@aol.com >Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:15:32 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B & B Affair >>Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:10:35 -0500 (CDT) >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B&B Affair >>To reiterate: MUFON has absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of any kind of >>an "attack" aimed at disrupting an abduction conference anywhere in Texas. We >>would never condone such activity. If it can be demonstrated that such an >>experience occurred and that someone or ones who perpetrated it were in >>anyway associated with MUFON, we will immediately issue a public apology, >>condemn any such activity, and disassociate ourselves with those >>individuals involved. >I think it best to attach the post in question from ORTK BULLETIN #26 below >to refresh every bodies memory. As can be seen the post is by BB Rider [...] I >simply published his concerns because he was not getting answers and hoped >that Mufon could help clear things up >Perhaps you would like to explain to the readers why you chose to attack me >with your poison pen rather than BB Rider who made the post? Have you even >contacted BB Rider and discussed this issue with him? [BB Ryder post snipped] Gentlemen, Considering this incident is being tried in the court of public opinion, and now aired in this public forum, I'd like to ask Mr. Komarek a few questions. I have no prior knowledge other than what's been posted to this list, nor do I particularly care, but I grow very weary of these "he said" public airing of claims and allegations supported by precious little substantiation. Mr. Komarek, has BB Ryder provided you with a list of witnesses who can verify the incident did, indeed, take place? Did BB Ryder report the alleged incident to the police? If so a report will be on file, and also a report number. BB Ryder should be able to provide this information to substantiate the claim. Also, since BB Ryder alleges MUFON was responsible, he should at the very least name the persons who claimed MUFON was involved, and also be able to provide the names of the alleged persons who burst into the abductee conference and evidence they were indeed MUFON members and acting on behest of MUFON. If not, this is really smear campaign and not worthy of our further consideration. In other words, substantiate the claims, or let it rest. A. Cameron Search for other documents from or mentioning: starbaby | edkomarek |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 Re: Research Shows Space Snowballs From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:35:05 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:15:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Research Shows Space Snowballs > Thanks to Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> > for the lead to the following..... > ebk *** snip *** > Cosmic Snowballs Detected > Pelting Earth's Atmosphere > By Kathy Sawyer > Washington Post Staff Writer > Thursday, May 29 1997; Page A01 > The Washington Post > BALTIMORE, May 28 -- Earth is bathed by a steady "cosmic > rain" from previously undetected objects from outer space that > pour vast quantities of water into the atmosphere, according to > startling new evidence released today. > The objects, 20- to 40-ton snowballs the size of two-bedroom > houses, streak into the atmosphere by the thousands each day, *** snip *** If the incredible number and size of these atmospheric events are real but were not detected by scientists until now, then the many UFOs observed in Earth's atmosphere worldwide every day would strongly suggest that there is a real traffic jam of UFOs in Earth's atmosphere! Nick Balaskas Physics and Astronomy York University
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 The last tribute From: Pat Parrinello <pparri@sat.net> Date: Wed, 28 May 97 16:23:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:27:05 -0400 Subject: The last tribute The last tribute. http://pwp.value.net/ufomus/comet/ Goodbye cruel world. (Graphics by Pookie) Who is pookie? "_I_ AM Pookie!" (Pat Parrinello) ------------------------------------- And a Big HELLO to everyone on UFO Updates! :) Where have I been? Well, lern`n unix sysadmin & stuff like that there and well,... the results is www.crossfields.com But the nice thing is I was given the goahead to put up a UFO site. But what would "I" (Pookie, remember?) do with a UFO site? The truth is; I draw a blank... SOooooooooo... I'm open for suggestions. If I like the suggestions I'll implement them. One other thing, Someone html & ftp savy needs to maintain the site. Candidates? One other other thing... I would like to see such a site operate as a pure UFO research site but have no objections to links. That would be at the discretion of the maintainer. ~Pat~ ---------------------------------------- Joe Friday's wife was the origional Webb crawler.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 Belgian Defense Sec Implements Cover Up of 1990 From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:48:30 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:24:53 -0400 Subject: Belgian Defense Sec Implements Cover Up of 1990 Received this from "alt.alien.research" May 30 at 11.02 CET. 30. May 1997 10.59.04 alt.alien.research Item From: jeff.baure@tlc.pom.primenet.com,usenet Subject: ufo & LoFlyte... To: alt.alien.research At the 13th of August '96, the Belgian TV news (RTL-TVI & RTBF) announced : "We finally have an explanation for our UFO wave in 1990!". Indeed, the Sunday Times published an article (11 AUG '96) about a new secret US plane (not that secret!): the waverider LoFlyte. The journalist wrote that the NASA had unveiled it the week before in a press release. This plane is triangular shaped, VTOL (Vertical Take Off & Landing), reaches Mach 5 or 6, uses stealth technology and a neural network based autopilot... Nobody tried to verify, corroborate or study this information... Not even the SOBEPS (official Belgian society for the study of space phenomenon)... T. Wathelet (head of the UFOCOM) , amazed by such an apathy, decided to evaluate the facts and take the information by himself. He wrote to Accurate Automation Corporation in Chattanooga, Tennessee, USA, to ask what they thought about the paper in the Sunday Times. The answer came few days later : ------------------------------------------------------ October 25, 1996 Mr. Wathelet, Thank you for the interest in Accurate Automation Corporation's LoFlyte program. As you are aware, The Sunday Times of London reported that "A prototype model (of LoFLYTE) was unveiled last week and has led to speculation that a secret full-size version may already have been built and be responsible for countless UFO sightings." I have since learned from you and other sources on the Internet that this story was subsequently aired on Belgian television as an explanation for several UFO sightings over Belgium since 1990. LoFLYTE has never been outside of the United States of America. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions. Sincerely, Topher Kersting, marketing coordinator. (end of the letter) -------------------------------------------------- It was an official letter from AAC, the prime contractor of the LoFLYTE program! Few days before, he received an e-mail from Mr. Kersting where this latter said that the first test-flight of the full-size version would occur within a month (November or December 96). More recently, the Belgian defense secretary officially closed (in a plenary session at the House) the enquiry about these unprecedented events in Belgium: he claimed that, on no account, these were related to multiple UFO intrusions but: 1) originated in repeated air space violations by a US prototype, the LoFlyte!! 2) the unusual patterns and dynamic of the two F16s'(*) onboard radar tracking was caused by meteorological plasmoids!! No reaction of the US by means of the embassy in Belgium is to be reported by now. (*) Two F16's scrambled to try to intercept the intruders...When a stabilized lock-on was to be achieved (on several occasions), the followed object initiated severe escaping manoeuvres inducing redhibitory track losses. To know more about this obvious official cover up: http://www.finart.be/UfocomHq/menu.html (french version) (the more complete) http://www.finart.be/UfocomHq/english/indexen.html (english version) (currently in construction...) Search for other documents from or mentioning: stig_agermose |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B & B Affair From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:41:59 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:18:43 -0400 Subject: Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B & B Affair >Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:24:38 -0400 >From: Jerry Washington <skyeking@aye.net> >Organization: Kentucky/MUFON >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B & B >Affair >> From: EdKomarek@aol.com >> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:15:32 -0400 (EDT) >> To: updates@globalserve.net >> Subject: Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B & B Affair >> Subj: MUFON's Purpose >> Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 5:51 PM EDT >> From: bbryder@bga.com >> To: EdKomarek@aol.com >> ...During the middle of the...seminar, several people burst in >>and >> began taking pictures with flashbulbs going off while >>shouting, "We > >know who you are!", and "We've got your picture!", and other >>such > >intimidating shouts... >> When the ruckus died down some, my friends found out that >>the >> intruders were from MUFON... >Is that anywhere near Tucson?? > >...they had burst in on the wrong seminar... > >BB Ryder & group >-- >Ed: >I have a couple of questions fer ya'. How in the hell were >those >"people from MUFON" identified, anyway? Were they sporting a >scarlet M >on their foreheads? Perhaps it'd been burned onto their >behinds with a >branding iron (which I hear are popular in Texas)in some sort >of bizarre >saucer-lovers ritual. Or maybe it'd been tattooed on their >forearms, Nazi >style. >Maybe the PFM (Persons From MUFON) were dressed up like >storm troopers >with the MUFON logo emblazoned on their helmets (they really >should >reveal their name, rank, and serial number ONLY when >captured!). Or >perhaps they were chanting "Walt Andrus, Walt Andrus, Walt >Walt, Andrus >Andrus," Hare Krisna-style as they scurried about like >zombies >committing their dastardly deeds... You might think this is funny but have you heard about Walt appointing the man with a SS tattoo as Georgia State Mufon Director after replacing the well liked State Director? Thats another one for the books. Check past issues of Saucer Smear for more information on that one. (Note: The situation has now been straightened out and some good people are back in control thank goodness.) >You know, Ed, if I was bent on disrupting Tea Time in Tejas, it >would >be very easy, and muy convenient, I might add, for me to pin it >on MUFON >should I pull a boner and invade the wrong gathering. It's >somewhat akin >to blaming it on the Bossa Nova (the dance of love, BTW) >and/or the >Devil, when one's ass is against the wall. It's called passin' >the buck >dude, "The Devil made me do it," which in the immortal words >of Ira >Gershwin means, "It ain't necessarily so." > Jerry Washington > SD & a PFM > Kentucky/MUFON Jerry: Welcome to the dialogue. It just looks like a embarrassing screw up to me. By who I have no idea but I am confident the truth will eventually come out. I just posted the information in the Bulletin because the apparently honest people weren't getting any answers from anyone. I think it is pretty clear that the event happened. Were Mufon individuals involved, thats a open question in my mind? I very much doubt there was any involvement by Mufon Hq other than the hostile statement about the meeting referred to in the post which sounds a lot like Stacy.( I suspect Stacy knows a little bit more about this issue than he is letting on. All this smoke he is creating might be a indication that he made that hostile statement about the meeting or knows who did.) Just speculation on my part however.) I hoped others involved with more information would come forward. Unfortunately Stacy decided to jump on me rather than investigate. If Stacy had not been so hostile he could still get the phone number from BB of the people that hosted the event in question. Such a personal attack on me for just putting the information in the Bulletin #26 undoubtably intimidated those wanting to come forward including BB rider himself. My problem in all this is the way Stacy and Mufon react to criticism founded or unfounded. Lets see if others come forward with their personal experiences about Mufon Hq if they are willing to take the inevitable assault on their character as I have done. This assault ranks right up there with debunker Kal's. If Mufon is to remain strong and viable the leadership needs to be able to accept criticism founded or unfounded in a much more constructive manner than at present. Thats just my opinion. Don't you just love these open public forums, its so refreshing. The best, Ed Komarek (ORTK) --------- To subscribe to the ORTK BULLETIN by Ed Komarek send mail to: listserve@awaiter.com with the following text in the body of the message: subscribe ortk-bulletins Search for other documents from or mentioning: edkomarek | skyeking |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B &B Affair From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:33:37 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:04:24 -0400 Subject: Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B &B Affair >From: EdKomarek@aol.com >Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:16:14 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >cc: skywatch@phoenix.net, iufo@world.std.com >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B &B Affair >Did I ever call Kent a liar? No I did not. I see a pattern of what I believe >is deception and I am working to point that out. I predict that Kent's >arguments will be picked apart in great detail just like Kal, Karl, Weaver, >Todd et all. But that won't stop these individuals from pushing these flawed >arguments in the mainstream press leading many astray of the truth. I think >this is all part of a containment operation. In the forthcoming Journal article, Jeffrey very clearly explains his reasons for changing his thinking on Roswell. When you say that those comments aren't heart-felt or are somehow duplicitous, then you are calling Jeffrey a liar, that is, of not telling the truth as he perceives it. >Now is interesting news! Right at the peak of the Roswell anniversary and >the mass media press coverage. What timing! Roll out the red carpet. Actually, it makes perfect sense, Ed, except to the very paranoid. You've said in the past that you're a newspaper editor. If so, then you know perfectly well that articles of any kind about a particular subject, pro or con, always increase around the event's anniversary. That's why you read more recaps, say, of, the Kennedy assassination in November than you typically do in January or February. In journalistic circles, anniversaries are "pegs" on which you hang stories. The very first article I ever sold for money was about the 10th anniversary of the closing of Project Blue Book. The first book that has my name on the cover (I once wrote one, uncredited, for Charles Berlitz) is about the 50th anniversary of the modern UFO. Do you think a publisher would want a book about the 49th or 51st anniversary? In case you haven't noticed, Roswell is 50 years old this summer. Virtually everyone will be doing something about it. There is nothing suspicious about any of it -- except to your way of thinking. >Yet you can't find the time to email the person responsible for the post! > And you call yourself researchers. I've spoken to at least two people about the case, which is apparently two more than you did. If you're so great at researching, why didn't you email the sender and ask for some confirmation before posting it far and wide? >This precisely the problem with MUFON. All you had to do was send me a >rebuttal. I would have published it and so both sides of the story would be >heard. No, this is isn't the problem with MUFON, it's the problem with you. Again, as a newspaper editor, you know full well that follow-up corrections never get the same space or necessarily reach the same people as the original allegations. A simple rebuttal is not "both sides of the story," as you also know. I can deny that I beat my wife and children, and I suppose that's the "second side" if someone so accuses me of doing so. The point is, that one shouldn't have to provide one's side of such accusations in the first place, unless the latter have some basis in reality. You got what you thought was some juicy gossip about MUFON, i.e., "dirty laundry" in your words, and simply went out and distributed it without doing any checking. In the real world of working newspaper journalism, this would probably get you fired, or at least result in a reprimand from your publisher. Instead, you accuse me of not checking your sources for you! This is nothing more than muck-racking and I, for one, am not going to let it go unanswered on this list. I've already given you several rebuttals, including this one, any of which you are free to post in your bulletin. Why do you keep asking for another one? MUFON has no knowledge of the incident. If you have any, please produce it. The matter is no more complicated or complex than that. If you can't confirm it, then a public retraction would be appreciated. >I am sure I am not the only person who has had this happen to them when Mufon >gets criticized. Instead of working to correct problems within the Mufon >leadership, Mufon just sends out hit man Stacy to blow them away with his >poison pen. No wonder lawyer Peter Gerstein has called for a complete >reorganization of Mufon. 1) It's MUFON and not Mufon; 2) it's Gersten and not Gerstein. What you are doing here, Ed, is not criticizing MUFON. For the hundredth time, you are spreading allegations of which we have absolutely no knowledge. How can we correct something we didn't do? You're asking the impossible. I repeat, this is an entirely separate issue. No organization or individual is perfect and anyone is free to criticize what they see as my or MUFON's shortcomings. There is also such a thing as constructive criticism and destructive criticism. You pretend (I can think of no better word for it) to promote the former while engaging in the latter. Finally, no one at MUFON sent me out as "hit man." Your own personal paranoia and sense of self-importance has simply gotten the better of you again. In the past, before we began the exchanges on this list, I pretty much stood on the sidelines as you questioned the motives of Tom Deuley, myself and others within MUFON, the accusation always being the suspicion that we could not have a simple difference of opinion from yours, but that because we did differ, we must be closet debunkers or government agents--by definition. This is an insult to my own sense of self because it implies that I am being dishonest with and manipulative of, the UFO community, where I have made many friends over the years. Having been involved with the field for over 20 years, I will admit that I now have more doubts about several ufological issues than I once did, including, for example, the MJ-12 documents. I like to think I've come to the few conclusions I have by examining both sides of any issue. As editor of the Journal, I will continue to present what I think are the best arguments on both sides of any number of UFO issues, and that definitely includes Roswell. I expect Jeffrey's article to draw sharp rebukes from any number of well-known ufologists, and I fully expect to publish those as well. It's known in the publishing business as presenting both sides of the story, not the controlling and suppression of dissent. Dennis PS: This is the same approach I adopted in co-editing UFO 1947-1997. If I may quote a note I got today from Jerry Clark dated 5-28-97: Dear Hilary and Dennis: Just a word to congratulate the two of you on a job well done. "UFO 1947-1997: Fifty Years of Flying Saucers" is a splendid piece of work: balanced, stimulating, informative. This is the most interesting and intellectually nourishing UFO book I've come upon in quite a while. You've made a real contribution. Jerry Clark Mr. Ed, no doubt, will beg to differ. Search for other documents from or mentioning: dstacy | edkomarek |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 Re: Debunkers - Roswell and Other Cases From: HONEYBE100@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:52:55 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:11:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Debunkers - Roswell and Other Cases Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 04:36 (EDT) To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> From: HONEYBE100@aol.com (Linda Cortile) Subject: Re: UFO UpDates: Debunkers - Roswell and Other Cases >From: EdKomarek@aol.com >Date: Tues, 27 May 1997 0424 (EDT) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto - <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Edgar Mitchell Say's Ed, you wrote: >Linda Cortile: >Linda, what I am trying to do on UFO UpDates and the other >lists is spell out a general overview of what I believe is going >on. I leave it to other more capable people to argue the de- >tails and destroy the arguements of these counter intelligence >folks. I am glad to see you joining in these discussions. Ed, I don't know much about the Roswell incident, but from what I've read, its sounds as credible as a case can be. The evidence seems to be overwhelming, as is the evidence for a cover-up. I believe that one needs only a single capable person to destroy the arguements of these counter intelligence people (if its done right, publicly). Although some debunkers are paid for by the U.S. Air Force, there are more of us, than there are of them. However, we have only a hand-full of capable people with the "guts" to fight back. Most are afraid to get involved. >This Roswell 50th is bringing the debunkers out of the wood >work. The latest that I have identified is Kent Jefferys. (Karl >Pflock is old hat of course). I don't see any other motivation >other than debunkery for Kent Jefferys going public with his >sudden change of heart at this time. Debunkers will come out of the woodwork at this time, whether or not a person has a change of heart. They will say and do what they want, but it will soon be forgotten. Ed, strong minded people within the communtiy and in the general public will stick to their guns the way you have. I've never heard of Kent Jefferys or Karl Pflock. So, there isn't much I can say about them. I'll take your word for it. You're right though, about Kent going public with his sudden change of heart, at this time. He could wait if he wanted to. If Kent has a leadership position, why haven't I heard of him? He's probably just known to some within the UFO community. >There will be those that argue that Ed is jumping the gun here. >That we haven't yet seen a public statement. I say by the time >we see a public statement, the damage in the press will already >have been done. Fine time then to argue the case! In this >situation I say bite first and ask questions later. I am so tired >of debunkers getting the benefit of the doubt when real witnesses >get hammered over and over. Who cares about those who will argue that you're jumping the gun? You have as much right to your opinion as anyone else has. I can relate to what you've said. I've always thought that damage would be done to my case when the press and media took hold of the lies the debunkers were telling them. I found out that I was wrong. They did absolutely no damage. In fact, they added some credibility to my case. No one puts that much time in debunking any case, unless there's a lot of truth to it. Cases like mine, Roswell and other cases are scary to debunkers because they're true. If Kent makes a public statement, damage won't occur. The Roswell case has held up under big time scrutiny for many years and it will continue to do so. The controversy alone (pro and con), is proof enough of the credibility of each case. Roswell has them all beat. Yes, I've grown tired of debunkers too. But I've learned to use them for my own advantage. You have to have fun with them. Like a child would, with a new toy. You see, a closed mind doesn't learn anything. If a person is capable of learning, but refuses to open his mind, then he's a self-made MORON. Why should we care what MORONS say? But if you want to have fun and use them for your own benefit (like I do), thats even better. It isn't difficult to make them look as ridiculous as they are, especially in public. In fact, in 1992, a debunker resigned from his Directors post for MUFON because we made a fool out of him. Personally, I believe that MUFON asked him to resign because its a good organization. If not, then this debunker couldn't take the heat. When I began to understand the power, in the strength debunkers gave to me, I used it. I still do. Most debunkers won't come face-to-face with me because they know what I'll do to them publicly, without damaging my credibility. Ed, if you allow the debunkers to give you strength, then you have won the war. I'm one of the lucky ones who is in a position to do this. I'm sure that most abductees are not in a position to do what I do. In that case, I'm so sorry for them because they aren't in a position to use debunkers for their amusement. But when I speak, I speak for all abductees. Debunkers have hurt them very much. I won't let them get away with it. I've learned that debunkers don't get the benefit of the doubt, not anymore. It doesn't matter what the press says because most people within the general public *want* to believe that UFO's exist. Things have changed, Ed. The tables have turned. What I'm trying to say is that the U.S. Air Force is wasting their time and our money, paying for these jack-asses to debunk every credible case that comes along. When the debunking starts, thats when you know you have a real credible and truthful case. When the debunkers said that I've hoaxed my own case, I laughed in their faces. After all, it takes a Bobby Fisher to hoax a case like mine and 99% of us don't have a Bobby Fisher mentality. That meant they put me in the 1% catagory. I was flattered!!!! <G> When I think of all the time and money that might've been wasted, on a test that may have gone wrong on November 30, 1989, I say "it serves them right" for being bould enough to try to do something foolish in the heart of NYC. This is my opinion and not that of Budd Hopkins. It isn't a coincidence that only 3 out of 21 witnesses (on different levels) didn't come forward. These 3 all have government related jobs. So, its no surprise to us. Don't worry about Roswell. It will hold up, no matter what. >Any responsible leader would have kept his personal opinions >to himself at least till after the battle. If he had any reservations >whatever, he never should have taken a leadership role. I, like >many others feel that our trust has been betrayed by this man. I know the feeling, Ed. No one wants to be betrayed, its true. Its natural to feel the way you all do. However, the 50th anniversary of Ufology & Roswell is 1-1/2 months away. There's still time to plan a strategy for a counter attack, if in fact you need to. You'll need a real "gutsy" person who is knowledgeable. But knowledgeable is just not enough. >I hope we can hold our own in the press this time around. >Its going to be tough because honest Roswell researchers >Randle and Friedman are sorely outnumbered by these debunkers >coming on line. Anybody that takes the time can see, that >these debunker arguements don't stand up to scrutiny from the >well informed on UpDates. However, the uninformed mainstream >press and public can easily be victimized by these slick talkers. I understand what the press can do. But do you know what? The press will try to make a sham out of every UFO case "without" the help of a debunker. Don't give disinformants that much credit. They don't deserve it and they're not slick. I'm sure that Friedman and Randle will handle it. They know their stuff regarding Roswell. If they say the right things, it won't matter if they're out-numbered by debunkers. The contro- versey will go on because its a solid case. We all should remember that there is no tangible proof regarding any case. We have to rely on the testimony of witnesses, evidence and blacked-out documents. So, we all have to work with what we have. We have a lot more than the debunkers do. They don't have any evidence that UFO's and their occupants don't exist. They have nothing to work with. Let's face it, if a UFO landed on the White House lawn and an alien knocked on the door, the de- bunkers would find a way to explain it away, no matter what. The weak minded will listen to them and the strong minded will draw their own conclusions. The debunkers said I was crazy and that I was hallucinating. But they're the nutty ones because all of those witnesses out there could not have seen my hallucinations. Do you understand what I mean? If you give them enough rope, they're going to hang themselves. Most people don't listen to them much anymore. Everyone has a right to their opinions, even debunkers. But they loose that right if someone gets hurt in the process. That's when you can give it to them good. Let em rip!!!! Although most people believe in the existence of UFO's, unfortunately, I can't say that much for alien abductions. We have a long way to go in that department. We're getting there though. I enjoy the fight, it keeps me young and strong. Debunkers in general, are what helps to keep credible cases alive. They're too ignorant to realize this. I hope they never do. God help them, if everyone learns to do what I have done. Use them for your benefit. Have fun playing with their emotions, as they have, hurting the innocent. I'm not finished with them, yet. Remember, debunkers only debunk when a truth comes out. The truth frightens them. Its like putting a light on, in a roach infested room. They all come scrambling out of the woodwork. The truth is as harmful to them, as RAID is to a bug. If we all stick together," like a hair in a biscuit," there wouldn't be many problems. It seems to me that most everyone would rather fight with each other, instead of the debunkers. It just doesn't make much sense to me. Roswell is one of a few cases that will last for many more years to come. No debunker will change that. Warm regards, Linda Cortile
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 DISPATCH #54 -- the weekly newsletter of ParaScope From: ParaScope@AOL.COM Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:33:58 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:48:03 -0400 Subject: DISPATCH #54 -- the weekly newsletter of ParaScope DISPATCH #54 -- the weekly newsletter of ParaScope S O M E T H I N G S T R A N G E I S H A P P E N I N G 5/31/97 Quote of the Week "Sorry, I haven't seen anything unusual, though I would like to see something unusual very much.'' -- Russian cosmonaut Alexander Lazutkin aboard the Mir space station responding to a question from a C-SPAN caller regarding whether the crew had spotted any UFOs. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ CONTENTS: -rant of the week ("You Suck, Now Please Help!") -spend a night in a haunted mansion -announcing the all-new Conspiracy Newsline -it's official: ParaScope is cool! -explore the mystery of Omega Agency -next week: Brazilian Beast, James Earl Ray, Roswell & more -change the world, volunteer for ParaScope -get me off this damn mailing list -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Rant of the Week: "ParaScope, You Suck, Now Please Help!" Every week we pick the wackiest, scariest, nastiest or funniest rant from the hundreds of letters received by us here at ParaScope headquarters, and present it to you as our Rant of the Week. This week, "Angry Jud" ignores the old adage of catching more flies with honey than vinegar and berates and insults the ParaScope staff before begging for our assistance. Can you decipher what the hell he's talking about? Enjoy! "You FARTS claim to be interested in real Conspiracies, but instead you have sold out to Aliens, Portals, Wormholes UFOs and other such NONSENSE. Tell me exactly how many REAL Conspiracies has Parascope actually exposed. I have spent the past 15 years shoving the Looting of the S&Ls and Banks in texas up the Reagan Bush Clinton's ASS. You really think that the # 3 Guy at the US Justice Department Webster Hubble did'nt learn how to Robb Banks Using Montgomery County Texas Style tactics. Whitewater is a JOKE, you add it to the list of ILLEGAL SUBDIVISIONS in the County Just North of the Number 2 Bank Fraud City in North America Houston Texas and Whitewater Would be # 640 something. I am in the 359th State District Court sitting in Montgomery County, Texas subject to the laws of Perjury and Contempt of Court. I obtained a Federal Court Order in U.SD. Districtt Court before the Honorable Federal Judge James DeAnda and my freind Montgomery county, Texas has more Whitewaters than anywhere on the freaken Planet. The Nation was LOOTED for Hundreds of Billions of Dollars and the US Government is now Taxing Americans for another $550 Billion to bail it all out. My freind thatt is a 1.1 Trillion Dollar SCREW JOB on the American People. Has Parascope the BALLS to actually expose something other then the hallucinations about Aliens and Wormholes. If you have one ounce of integridy and I will not be holding my breath, maybe you SELL OUTS at Parascope and AOL will actually begin to ask Janet RHINO and Louis Freeh at FBI and hell call up the Montgomery County Attorney about Cause No. 96-11-04068-CV proceeding in the 359th State District Court in the Bank Fraud capitol of planet Earth Montcounty, Texas. Neil Bush, Jim Wright, Webster Hubble and the Clinton Gang all have one thing in common a propensity to use ILLEGAL SUBDIVISIONS TO ROBB BANKS AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. Hey Parascope you say you investigate Conspiracies well my little freind LETS SEE WHAT YOUR MADE OF" [Reprinted with spelling and grammar goofs unchanged. Names changed to protect the ranters.] -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Spend a Night in a Haunted Mansion! Afraid of things that go bump in the night? Join ParaScope's team of paranormal investigators and go ghost-hunting from the safety and comfort of your computer! Starting at 6 a.m. Wednesday, June 4 and continuing non-stop until dawn the following day (if they survive), ParaScope's fearless chat hosts will spend a night in New Orleans' most haunted house. The Southern Nights Writer's Bed is considered the most active haunted house in all of New Orleans, and ParaScope will be teaming with parapsychologist Larry Montz of Hauntings Today to conduct a 24-hour investigation into this historic site, documenting every aspect of the dawn-to-dawn event online live in the Grassy Knoll chat room on America Online. The mansion has three floors and close to a dozen rooms in which ghost sightings are regularly reported. In addition to the live updates, the investigators and hosts will upload digital photos and personal accounts of their night in the haunted mansion, and will be fielding questions from everyone who stops by the chat room during the "ghost-watch." Join the non-stop live chat at keyword: parascope on America Online beginning at 6 a.m. Wednesday, June 4, or stop by later in the week for a detailed recap of the night's events. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Announcing ParaScope's All New Conspiracy Newsline Can't get enough conspiracy news? You've come to the right place! ParaScope is pleased to announce the launch of a brand new resource: Conspiracy Newsline. Only ParaScope brings you a new late-breaking conspiracy-related news update every day. AOL users, see the link in the top of the Matrix list box, or point your browser to: http://www.parascope.com/articles/cnews/index.htm If you missed Conspiracy Newsline's first week, you missed out on up-to-the-minute stories about the Tim McVeigh trial, a triumph for alternative medicine, Bill Clinton's lust for a third term, Paul Jones' lawsuit, excessive force against Aborigines and much more. Don't miss out! Check the Conspiracy Newsline daily. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ It's Official: ParaScope is "Cool" Congratulations to the ParaScope web team for creating a site worthy of being honored as a "ProjectCool Sighting." ParaScope has been selected as a "Cool Site of the Day" by ProjectCool (http://www.projectcool.com) for general excellence in implementing a unique idea on the web. A special thanks and congratulations to the hardest-working web team on the planet: Charles Overbeck and Darrin Lythgoe, as well as Brad King, Paul Thompson and everyone else who has helped make our web site "cool." -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Explore the Mystery of the Omega Agency Beware of "The Omega Agency." Sketchy reports, rumor and innuendo imply that this agency is planning on world domination, eventually eliminating the court systems, lawyers and forcing all that can to work. A brutal security regime will hold ultimate power over life and death. Dare to rebel against the Agency, and receive a bullet to the head. Break an Agency edict, and suffer instant death without a trial. Is the Omega Agency real? Join PSCP Timer as we discuss the Omega Agency in ParScope's AOL chat room, the Grassy Knoll next Thursday, June 5 from 7-9pm ET. Also, join us in the Crop Circle, ParaScope's web-based chat room every Saturday night at 9pm ET for great times and good conversation. http://www.parascope.com/virtualplaces/virtualplaces.html. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Coming Up Next Week! Catch all these stories next week on a daily basis on America Online, or all at once next Thursday on the web site! Monday, June 2: Introducing...Conspiracy Newsline Get the latest updates and insight on late-breaking conspiracy-related news articles as we officially inaugurate our hot new daily feature. We can't tell you what we'll be featuring yet, because unlike other online sites that serve warmed-over content kept alive with heat lamps and artificial preservatives, ParaScope is serving up fresh, daily conspiracy news. ------------------- Tuesday, June 3: James Earl Ray Update The accused assassin of civil rights leader Martin Luther King, Jr. has approximately one year to live without a liver transplant. His request for a new liver has been denied, just days after ballistics experts concluded tests on the rifle prosecutors say Ray used to murder King. Will the rifle tests prove Ray's innocence and lead to a full jury trial for supposed assassin? And if so, will he live long enough to see that trial? Get the latest news in an update to this developing story, along with information on a new web site dedicated to securing the organ transplant that Ray desperately needs. ------------------- Wednesday, June 4: Haunted House Live Chat Join in on all the action from 6am Wednesday till 6:00 the following morning as ParaScope's chat hosts report live from the most haunted house in New Orleans. All the action is taking place in the Grassy Knoll, and you can be there as it happens! Also Wednesday, June 4: UFO Folk Art Gallery The wonder and fear of UFO sightings. The trauma and excitement of alien abduction. The unending human fascination with life beyond the stars. Artist Troy Hicks captures it all in his distinctive drawings. ParaScope is pleased to present an exclusive gallery of Hicks' best UFO folk art, coming to the internet for the very first time. ------------------- Thursday, June 5: The Brazilian Beast: "Son of Chupa" Strikes Since January 28, 1997, a strange Chupacabras-like creature which Brazilian ranchers have nicknamed "The Beast" has killed more than 50 sheep in the southern region of Brazil. One eyewitness described the creature as "two meters tall, very thin, with small forearms and long claws, and of a dark gray color." According to Brazilian newspaper reports, this creature purportedly massacred a dozen sheep and mangled eleven others in a corral at the Samuel Ramos Lago ranch. Enigma editor D. Trull has the details. ------------------- Friday, June 6: U.S. Air Force Roswell Report In 1995, the U.S. Air Force responded to public pressure for more information about the Roswell incident, releasing a massive report chock full of photos and other documentation. The report stands as the definitive "official" (government) view of Roswell. Dossier presents the report and reviews the debate that rages around it. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Want to help change the world, or at least a little corner of the online world? Here's your chance. Check out the following positions at ParaScope: Sound, Music, Action! Here's your chance to write the national anthem for the conspiracy nation -- or the paranormal republic -- take your pick. ParaScope is looking for musicians and sound designers to assist in bringing life to an upcoming multimedia project that combines some of the best of ParaScope's content from our first year online. If you'd like to volunteer to compose atmospheric music or sound effects, send a note to music@parascope.com. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Jane, Stop This Crazy Thing! Thought you were tough enough to handle the Dispatch and now you realize you're not? Starting to think you've made a wrong turn off the info highway? Well, we're only going to go over this once, so listen up! To unsubscribe yourself from Dispatch: 1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com 2) In the body of your mail, type: unsubscribe dispatch That's all there is to it! Likewise, if you've received this e-mail from a friend and you'd like to subscribe yourself, just: 1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com 2) In the body of your mail, type: subscribe dispatch ---------------------------------------- ParaScope 11288 Ventura Blvd., #904 Studio City, CA 91604 America Online -- keyword: parascope parascope@aol.com World-Wide Web -- http://www.parascope.com info@parascope.com Search for other documents from or mentioning: parascope | music |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 Reply to Dennis Stacy. Was: One small question From: DRudiak@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:09:38 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:42:44 -0400 Subject: Reply to Dennis Stacy. Was: One small question Dennis Stacy recently e-mailed me: >My interesting Roswell point or question of the day, then is this. In an >interview by Jamie Shandera published in the January 1991 issue of the MUFON >UFO Journal, General Dubose, Ramey's chief of staff, denies repeatedly that >there was any switch of material in Ramey's office. In other words, Marcel >was photographed with what he brought in from Roswell. And that debris is >clearly mundane and terrestrial in origin -- is, in fact, probably from >Mogul. But in every other interview with Dubose, including his signed affidavit for FUFOR, dated 9/16/91, Dubose said that Ramey substituted a weather balloon for the real debris. In his signed affidavit, Dubose stated, "The material shown in the photographs taken in Maj. Gen. Ramey's office was a weather balloon. The weather balloon explanation for the material was a cover story to divert the attention of the press." Dubose's testimony along these lines dates clear back to the 1979 in the "Roswell Incident." Dubose also said that the real stuff was on its way to Wright Field for examination at the same time the weather balloon was being photographed in Ramey's office. In "UFO Crash at Roswell" Dubose was quoted as saying that the weather balloon ".... was a cover story. The whole balloon part of it. That part of it was a story that we were told to give to the public and news and that was it." (This was from a March, 1990 interview.) I think when Dubose said "the whole balloon part of it," he was making it pretty clear that Ramey wasn't simply calling Mogul balloon material by another name. Dubose's affidavit further describes the other flight from Roswell which arrived in a "sealed container," which he did take personal charge of, and handed off to the base commander, Col. Clark to pesonally transport to Washington. In some interviews, Dubose said this bag or container was attached to Clark's wrist. Also in other interviews, Dubose indicated that this had happened several days before Marcel's flight and the weather balloon photos. Most likely this happened July 6, when Brazel brought debris samples to town. It was another flight entirely. Now please note that in this earlier flight the debris samples were in a "sealed container." But from the testimony of Robert Porter, who accompanied Marcel to Fort Worth, these debris samples were wrapped in brown paper. Three packages were about shoebox size, but a third was a triangular package, which measured about 2-1/2 to 3 feet on a side. Now let's get to the Shandera interviews. Dubose said he was handed a "canvas mail pouch." This was the stuff which he says he took to Ramey's office and which he says contained the balloon debris. Now look at the Fort Worth photos. First of all there is brown paper on the floor, no "canvas mail pouch." [In fact, the Air Force used Porter's story and claimed this showed this must be the same debris flown in by Marcel (though obviously it proves nothing).] Now look at the sticks on the ground. How could these fit into a canvas mail pouch? One of these sticks is about four feet long. Where did it come from? You don't suppose it might have come from substituted debris? For whatever reason, when he gave the Shandera interviews Dubose seems to have confused the two separate flights he described previously. The first flight on July 6 had debris in a sealed container, handed off to Clark and tied to his wrist. This obviously couldn't have contained the sticks shown in the Fort Worth photo. And Dubose said this happened several days before when he and the Pentagon were first notified of material being recovered near Roswell. The second flight was Marcel going to Fort Worth. According to Porter the debris samples were wrapped in brown paper. One package was large, but probably not large enough to contain the four foot stick shown in the photos. Porter mentioned no smell. Neither did Marcel or anybody else who handled this debris before Fort Worth. But the first person to see this debris after Marcel and Dubose (in other interviews) said it had been swapped immediately noted the powerful odor of the rubber weather balloon in Ramey's office. This was the photographer, C. Bond Johnson. So where did this smelly weather balloon suddenly come from? You don't suppose it might also have come from substituted debris? Both Porter and Marcel said that there was more debris on board the plane. (Porter said it was in the cargo hold under armed guard.). Porter said he was told on the flight by Capt. William Anderson that it was from a flying saucer. Another witness, Lt. Robert Shirkey, also testified to seeing the plane being loaded at Roswell with boxes of metallic debris plus the packages of brown paper. (He also reported seeing an "I-beam" with strange writing on it.) He was likewise told it was from a flying saucer. In addition, Porter stated that the pilot of the plane was none other than the Deputy Base Commander Lt. Col. Paynes Jennings. Jennings signed an order that very day supposedly making him the acting base commander while Blanchard allegedly left in the middle of the day during the press feeding frenzy to go on leave. So now we have the very strange situation where the base commander supposedly disappears in the middle of a crisis, while the supposed acting C/O personally pilots a shipment of tin foil, balsa wood, and a rubber balloon and leaves his command without an acting C/O. This Mogul balloon must have been made of mighty important stuff! It seems none of the regular Roswell pilots could be trusted with it, even though they could be trusted with carrying A-bombs! Porter also said that when they reached Fort Worth, Jennings ordered them to stay with the plane until a guard could be posted. Then they were allowed to go get something to eat. When they got back, Porter was told that the rest of the debris on the plane had been unloaded and placed on another plane bound for Wright Field. At this point he was told it was nothing but a weather balloon, but he didn't believe it. Marcel and Dubose likewise said that the debris was transferred to another plane for immediate shipment to Wright Field. This would have been at around the same time that Johnson was photographing the balloon debris in Ramey's office. A surviving teletype message issued from the Pentagon in Ramey's name at about this time also stated that the debris was on its way to Wright Field. Every time I look at Marcel's Roswell story, I see it being corroborated by others and by existing documentary evidence. The statements of the plane being full of debris in addition to the debris samples were not those of Marcel alone. Neither were his statements about the debris being from a flying saucer, or that the real debris was swapped in Fort Worth and immediately flown to Wright Field. His statements about the anomalous physical characteristics of the debris are also backed up by others such as Bill Brazel Jr., Louis Rickett, Robert Smith, Loretta Proctor, and Gen. Exon. BTW, you'll notice if you read Kal Korff's book that he doesn't have a single mention of Robert Porter or Robert Shirkey. Could it be because they corroborated that "liar" Marcel? And why didn't Korff mention the other statements of Dubose where he backed up Marcel's story about what happened in Fort Worth? >*If* Dubose is correct, then we have existing photographs of the Foster >ranch debris and it is patently mundane. In a sense, everything else is >moot, if, indeed, Marcel was photographed with the same stuff he recovered >at Brazel's place. Except for this one set of interviews near the end of Dubose's life, he always said the debris was swapped with a weather balloon and spoke of another debris shipment from before. Now why it came out so different in the Shandera interviews I don't know. Maybe Dubose was starting to confuse and mix things together at the end, while at other times being clear and consistent with his earlier statements. (This happened to my own father before his death.) Regardless, every piece of evidence I've seen points to a debris swap taking place in Fort Worth. This is outlined more in detail below. >*If* Marcel is right -- and the debris *was* switched -- then one still has >to address a "coincidence" of almost cosmic proportions, namely, apart from >differences of opinion as to the actual nature of the material recovered, >why is there any superficial resemblance at all? There's nothing "cosmic" about it. The Mogul balloon trains were nothing but standard meteorological balloons and radar reflectors strung together. They were available at all the military bases. In fact there were pictures of the same model radar reflector being launched in Kansas City and Ohio (in addition to Alamogordo) the following day as part of a nationwide debunking campaign. (The newspapers stories were very explicit about the Army and Navy making a concerted effort to stop all the flying disc reports.) The military put out the story that the weather balloon radar reflectors probably accounted for all the flying saucers being seen around the nation the past two weeks. They said the radar reflectors were used at all the military weather stations, each of which launched four weather balloons a day. Irving Newton likewise was quoted in the 1947 press after identifying the balloon wreckage in Ramey's office as saying that the balloon and radar reflector could have come from any of 80 weather stations around the country. He said he originally became familiar with this particular model of radar reflector while serving overseas in Osaka. Three other interesting photos were in the Atlanta Consitution on July 10 and July 11. They showed another style radar reflector being launched by the local Naval weather station (also made of foil and balsa), again being used as an explanation for the flying saucers. This radar reflector was carried aloft by an ARRAY of four weather balloons, three black and one white. This shoots down the argument of Charles Moore that ONLY Project Mogul launched balloon arrays, and the blackened rubber weather balloon in Ramey's office could ONLY have come from one of their weather balloons that had lain out in the sun and darkened. Obviously not, since black weather balloons were also used back in 1947. And extra weather balloons were apparently used by the weather services whenever they needed more lift to carry heavier payloads. Another point about Moore's argument that doesn't stand up to scrutiny is the fact that a weather balloon that had sat out in the hot New Mexico sun for a month would not be relatively intact, as the one in Ramey's office was. Moore in his Air Force interview stated that the neoprene rubber balloons started to deteriorate almost immediately in the sunlight, darkened within days, and were reduced to ashlike flakes within weeks. A photo showing this was printed in the Air Force Report. Korff reprinted it in his book (Fig. 10). Korff's caption read: "A close-up view of a Mogul balloon that has been exposed to sunlight for several days. Notice that it looks like the dark material pictured in figures 2 and 6 [the dark weather balloon on the floor]." Unfortunately for the skeptics, the photo shows small flecks of darkened rubber, not the intact mass of rubber in the Fort Worth photos. Unwittingly Moore and Korff undercut their own argument. A weather balloon recovered after a month of hot sun would not have looked like what was pictured in the Fort Worth photos. This had to be a substituted weather balloon, perhaps a black weather balloon like in the Atlanta photos, or a white one that had darkened after only a few days in the sun, but not yet fragmented. A few days earlier, another identical radar reflector was recovered by farmer Sherman Campbell in Circleville, Ohio. The AAF weather officer who ID'ed it said these were used at all the military weather stations around the country. If you read some of the newspaper accounts BEFORE the Roswell crashed disc press release, you'll see that already it was being suggested that the radar reflectors were possibly responsible for the flying saucer reports. What this comes down to is the fact that the weather balloon/radar reflector combo explanation for the flying discs was already out there, completely INDEPENDENT of the Mogul flights. All Ramey had to do was use a ready-made explanation. He also probably had easy access to a radar reflector of the Mogul type. Again, these reflectors were already being found elsewhere and the military was saying they were used at all the weather stations. And the military staged numerous weather balloon launches with radar reflectors in the following two days after Fort Worth to debunk the nationwide epidemic of flying discs. Another indication of a hastily concocted weather balloon story is that Ramey was putting out the weather balloon explanation within an hour of the Roswell press release. This was BEFORE Marcel had even arrived at Fort Worth with the debns. Yet he told Gen. Vandenberg and the Washington D.C. press corp at the Pentagon that he had just gone to take a look, and the "disc" looked like an old box kite. Unfortunately Ramey also said it was 25 feet across. Do you see anything in the Fort Worth photos that appears to be 25 feet across? Obviously Ramey was confabulating at this point, and perhaps not being intimately familiar with radar reflectors, dramatically blew it up into a size more in keeping with the various flying disc reports. For many hours afterwards, military spokesman were still reporting that the object was 20-25 feet across. It was reported as such on the radio news at 10:00 that night while Ramey was now telling the press that he didn't know what shape or size it was because it was so torn up. >Did someone in the Air Force say, "You know, this stuff Jesse is describing >isn't all that different on the surface from Project Mogul material...foil, >sticks, some plastic. It was Blanchard who communicated with Ramey and higher headquarters, and Blanchard indicated to others that he had seen the debris and hadn't seen anything like it before. So it wasn't just "Jesse" who was describing this stuff. And according to Dubose from other testimony, the military already had a good look at the stuff from two days before. If it had been nothing but balloon material, I'm sure some 70+ IQ Air Force person along the chain of command would finally have recognized rubber, tinfoil, and balsa for what it was, and relayed it back down to Roswell and Blanchard. But this whole ridiculous scenario is that nobody, absolutely nobody in the Air Force could figure out this "exotic" Mogul debris and let the dunces back at Roswell know what it was. I think another very important point that the skeptics keep dodging is the fact that both Blanchard and Ramey spoke very highly of Marcel after Roswell. Ramey a year later, e.g., called his services "outstanding." Now if an intelligence officer had really screwed up the identification of simple balloon material, I think the superior officers who were intimately familiar with what happened would be having serious second thoughts about the competence of this intel officer. There is no indication that this was the case with Marcel. Blanchard recommended him for promotion to higher intelligence service, which in fact happened when he was transferred to the Top-Secret Special Weapons Program in Washington. Now why would flying saucer materials superficially resemble balloon material? First of all, there was nothing resembling or smelling like rubber weather balloons reported by anybody at the debris field. Nor was there the hundreds of feet of balloon twine that should have been scattered all over the ground. This stuff was largely thin metal and "sticks" or "beams" scattered over a very large area, plus something resembling "parchment" which Marcel said was covered with strange writing. The Mogul radar reflectors, on the other hand, each had about 18 square feet of foil. If there had been 3 radar reflectors, as Charles Moore has indicated, that's a grand total of 54 square feet of aluminum foil, not nearly enough to densely litter many acres of land. There was also about 30 feet of balsa sticks on each reflector or maybe 100 feet total on three reflectors. Again, that doesn't come to a hell of a lot when you scatter it over a number of acres. But the outer metallic hull of a craft say 30 feet across could have on the order of a 1000+ square feet of skin material plus several hundred feet of supporting framework. Anything on the inside of the outer hull would only add to that total debris. This is considerably more than the quantities of debris that could be generated by the payload of a Mogul balloon train. Like any high-performance flying craft, the name of the game in aeronautical engineering is to make it of lightweight materials of maximum strength. Thin, lightweight materials aren't just for balloons. The lighter the craft, the more rapidly it can accelerate and maneuver and the faster it can go with the least amount of energy. As an example, NASA is currently experimenting with a titanium foil/silicon carbide cloth composite which is very strong and heat resistant for use as a hull material in future space shuttles. I think the superficial resemblance to the reported Roswell debris is obvious. NASA also has active, ongoing research in nanotechnology at Ames Research Center, Mountain View, CA. Go check http://www.nas.nasa.gov/nanotechnology. A1997 NASA tech report on the computer simulations of Jie Han, Al Globus, Richard Jaffe and Glenn Deardorff has the following interesting comments: "We would like to write computer programs that would enable assembler/ replicators to make aerospace materials, parts and machines in atomic detail," he [Globus] said. "Such materials should have tremendous strength and thermal properties." A long range goal, according to Globus, is to make materials that have radically superior strength-to-weight ratio. Diamond, for example, has 69 times the strength-to-weight ratio of titanium. A second goal is to.make "active" or "smart" materials. "There is absolutely no question that active materials can be made," Globus explained. "'Look at your skin. It repairs itself. It sweats to cool itself. It stretches as it grows. It's an active material," he said. Jeez, so now NASA lunatic scientists are talking about super strong, lightweight, thermally resistant, active materials, i.e. complex materials that can respond to the environment in intelligent ways. Shades of Roswell! You don't suppose that might even include metal-like materials that actively return to their original shape, just like that lying Jesse Marcel and other lying Roswell witnesses reported? What a difference only 50 years of technical advancement can make in human conception of what might be possible. Another question I know you have repeatedly asked was why weren't there a great variety of materials found if this was really a saucer crash? I can only respond that there are many instances in which previously very complicated devices become "simpler" through integration as our technology advances. This is particulary true of electronics, such as computers, which used to consist of roomfuls of electronic tubes, metal racks, and wiring, but which can now largely be reduced to a single integrated silicon chip. From the outside it doesn't look like much. It is only when you examine the thing under a microscope that you realize that it is an extremely complex device meticulously assembled at the microscopic level. Such things as plastic batteries and semiconductor/conducting plastics now exist which might replace silicon semiconductors and metals in some applications. In the not too distant future, I'm sure we will see large flat screen TVs totally fabricated from what will superficially appear to be one piece of plastic. Again, only if you inspect it very carefully will you realize that it is a microscopically assembled complex device. But from the outside it will appear to be very simple. Yet it will replace the hundreds of parts and materials that used to make up a TV. Could a molded plastic, nearly one-piece electric car be made, where plastic battery energy storage could be made an integral part of the car itself, electrically conducting plastic (again an integral part of the car) instead of copper wires would carry current to the plastic electric motors, exterior and interior lighting would come from light-emitting diodes as integral parts of the plastic semiconductor panels, all the control electronics would be molded into interior panels with built-in sensors and intelligence that would respond to the touch and voices of the passengers, and with adaptable seats that mold themselves automatically and precisely to the contours and size of the passenger's body (and with built-in semiconductor heating and cooling), replacing primitive air conditioners and foam rubber/ metal seats? This all may be possible in the next 100 years. Micro- and nanotechnology are still in their infancy. Once techniques are developed for creating complex integrated devices and materials with carefully taylored properties, there doesn't seem to be any reason why smart-material flying craft couldn't be mass manufactured in this way out of seemingly few materials and parts, instead of being hand-crafted as they are now out of tens of thousands. Control electronics and navigation, computers, view screens, sensors, and lighting could be integrated into seemingly homogeneous walls, floors, ceilings, and control panels. The hull, might likewise serve a variety of functions. Aside from the normal streamlining of the craft and protecting the interior, it might also be part of the ship's propulsion or energy storage (this would be particularly true if the material was superconducting). As in the interior, sensors and light emitting devices could be integrated right into the skin. It might even adapt its shape or properties to a given situations. This is what is meant by active or smart materials. If you read one of the latest issues of Popular Science, you will see materials like this being explored for the skins of new Stealthy planes that will be hard to see in the daylight. Light sensors will be built in which will adjust the luminance of the skin, also light emitting, to the background luminance of the sky. The materials will also have the usual radar absorbing properties of older Stealth planes. Yet if one of these blew up and you picked up some pieces of the skin, you would probably never guess what it could do just by eyeballing it. >Why don't we just *say* it's a balloon, and no one >will ever be the wiser?" Well they continue to fool you, Dennis. They said balloon to ALL the flying saucer reports, not just Roswell. Go read the newspaper stories of July 6-11, 1947, including those of the various staged weather balloon launches of July 9 and 10.. It has been quite obvious from your many smart-ass posts on Roswell that you are poorly acquainted with the facts of the case. That's unfortunate, because as editor of the MUFON Journal you have a special responsibility to not only be familiar with the facts, but report them to the readers in an even-handed fashion, instead of dismissing them in your inimitable cavalier fashion time after time. I have responded to your e-mail in detail because I hope it is an indication that you are being more serious and are genuinely interested in learning more on the Roswell case. And I also hope you now realize that the seemingly bizarre properties of the reported materials and the limited variety may not seem so implausible anymore given what may be developed in the next 100 years with our own fledgling nanotechnology. Perhaps you are beginning to understand that there is more to all this than you originally thought, and is not something to be casually dismissed with a couple of flippant lines. David Rudiak
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 Re: Raelian Movement Meeting 5/28/97 From: paulw@escape.com (Paul Williams) Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:55:11 GMT Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 08:59:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Raelian Movement Meeting 5/28/97 >Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:05:47 -0700 (PDT) >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Raelian Movement Meeting 5/28/97 >> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:36:41 GMT >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com> >> Subject: Raelian Movement Meeting 5/28/97 >Paul Williams wrote: >> Sisters and brothers, explorer's all. I wish to share with you an experience >> I had this evening. Many of you out there are somewhat familiar with the >> Raelian Movement I'm sure. Well I attended a meeting they had this evening >> at the New Yorker Hotel, conviently located next to WBAI radio, where I >> produce UFO Desk. Please allow me to share some of what was said at this >> meeting along with some of my own humble ideas. ... >For those interested in more, there is Rael's book called _The Message >Given to me by Extra-terrestrials_ (1986, 294 pages), by Claude Vorilhon, >which is his Christian name. One problem with his story is that these >creator ETs would have had to retain a continued participatory interest in >earth over a few billion years, not just a million, if they introduced the >first life onto earth's barren waters. With that much time for their >science to develop further, it shouldn't now take them two months in >traversing a light year to get from their planet to here! [snip] >> Rael is a skillful speaker, he's friendly, and seems genuine. ... >And so he's been amazingly successful in recruiting a following that I >believe now numbers in the several tens of thousands. He seems quite >dedicated to trying to expand the Movement. Just think how many more >followers still he'd have if he had been given numerous daytime photo >opportunities to record the Elohim's UFOs on film! Damn Jim, thanks, I knew sending this missive out to UFO Updates, the best and brightest would respond. Your sharings are very appreciated. From what was shared at this meeting the RM now boast about 35,000 members world wide. Is Rael a genuine contactee, I don't know. It seems one has to depend on one's personal sensibilities in that arena. In that past year, I've interviewed a few people who claim the experience. At times I have a hard time "believing" some of the stories I hear. But that's fine, critical thinking must be part of the package. Even Rael called for that. Again, thanks for your thoughts. Paul Wms. www.escape.com/~paulw/ufodesk.html >
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 Re: Raelian Movement Meeting 5/28/97 From: paulw@escape.com (Paul Williams) Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:45:47 GMT Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:00:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Raelian Movement Meeting 5/28/97 >From: RobIrving@aol.com >Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:57:13 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Raelian Movement Meeting 5/28/97 >> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:36:41 GMT >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com> >> Subject: Raelian Movement Meeting 5/28/97 >> Firstly I must say that it was a professional presentation. The >> program started off with a beautiful video of life on this planet. >> Principally a lovely black bird, species unknown to this writer, >> as it was performing it's mating ritual, there was another video >> with a lovely young woman, explaining the Raelian idea of how >> this planet was the labortory of a race of beings the Raelians >> called the Elohim, please note, that Elohim is plural... >> It seems these Elohim were very much into genetic manipulation. >> From what the video shared these Elohim were doing this work >> on their home planet, but seem to have run into some kind of >> problems with their people not wanting that work being done on >> their home world. >Not wanting to poop on your epiphany, but does evidence exist for >this beyond the slick video and one man's dreamy reminiscences? [snip] >For some reason I just don't trust people who opt for those really >low side-partings, because they require so much hairspray, and >then it's one thing after another. >Am I making a huge, potentially damning, error of judgement here? Yo, Rob, evidence, they don't need no stinking evidence. Well at least none was presented at the presentation. In my report I tried to be fair to them, I came to report about Ceaser not praise or berate him. Hair spray, yeah it there. Another person wrote me saying that a French friend of her's said the RM is known in France for having group orgy's. Hey, en mass hot sex, it can cure what ails ya. And it's great for inquiring minds, ya dig? Paul Wms.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 Re: Mogul Balloons and Weather Balloons From: DRudiak@aol.com Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:10:40 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 08:59:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Mogul Balloons and Weather Balloons >Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:38:48 -0400 >To: Updates@globalserve.net >From: David <furry@nobelmed.com> >Subject: Mogul Balloons and Weather Balloons >>From what I've read and understand, the item that "crashed" in or near >Roswell, left a GOUGE in the earth and scattered debris along a large area >of the ground. > >UNLESS a balloon EXPLODES, I do NOT see how it is POSSIBLE to be the item >that crashed at Roswell. Now, it is common knowledge that either helium or >warmed air were used in any balloons outside of GERMANY.....therefore no >combustible materials to explode. Oh and if it did explode HIGH in the air, >due to pressure, then the fall to earth still would NOT have scattered >debris over the ground. Two comments here. As I understand it the balloons would become brittle from the extreme cold at very high altitudes. Therefore, when they burst they would sometimes shatter into pieces. However, if this happens at altitudes of 5 to 15 miles high, the air currents would carry and scatter the fragments over a very large area. When the pieces finally drifted down to earth, they would probably have covered tens to hundreds of square miles, or have been so sparsely distributed as to be unnoticable. Second, Mogul had several small explosive charges on the balloons with several functions. When the balloon train reached proper altitude, one exploded and cut loose any extra lifter balloons so the remaining train would stay at constant altitude. When the balloon train was descending, another would explode at a certain altitude to cut loose an important payload so that it could be parachuted to earth rather than be carried around by the balloons to God knows where. On the later, large polyethylene balloons, an explosive charge was attached directly to the side of the balloon. It was designed to punch a hole in the balloon when it dipped below 20,000 feet and posed a potential hazard to air traffic. The idea was to deflate the balloon and have it drop as quickly as possible out of possible harms way. Again, this wouldn't shatter the balloon, and if it did, the pieces would be widely and sparsely scattered. > More often then not, a balloon that lost air; would >float lazily to earth and be rather INTACT. Ask any of the World War ONE >pilots that shot down balloons WITHOUT using explosive ammo......on more >then one occassion they watched the thing SLOWLY sink down to the >ground.....Using Explosive ammo would cause the HYDROGEN that the Germans >were using to EXPLODE and much more drastic things would then >happen....<grin>... > >So, my question is......IF the item crashed, had the WEIGHT to gouge the >earth and SCATTER debris, can ANYONE explain how a BALLOON could POSSIBLY >do this? The early Moguls carried light payloads, consisting mostly of sand ballast for altitude control. This would be mostly expended by the time the balloon touched down. I believe even fully loaded, the payload was no more than 25 pounds. The rest of the payload was a lightweight radiosonde and battery packs, and maybe some listening gear. In the case of the alleged crashed balloon this would have been a cylindrical sonobuoy. If the balloon touched down, without releasing the payload with the explosive charge mentioned above, and was then blown about by the winds, maybe the payload would be dragged around on the sand and cause some minor furrowing. It couldn't cause any major gouging. But several witnesses reported at least one large gouge. So how did that get there? More puzzling, Jesse Marcel and Mac Brazel reported no gouging. Marcel said he looked for a crater where something could have crashed and couldn't find one. Therefore he thought the thing had exploded and come apart in midair. One possibility is that the main gouge was reported in a shallow, narrow valley by Brazel Jr. Conceivably this might have been overlooked by Brazel Sr. and Marcel on a large crash field. The second possibility to account for such a gouge is to note that it wasn't reported until AFTER the major recovery of material began. Louis Rickett reported it on July 8, said it was being guarded, and soldiers were sifting through the sand. AP photographer Robin Adair said he saw what appeared to be gouges from the air when he attempted to fly over on July 8. The next day, Robert Smith said he saw crates of material being loaded into C-54's for transport. He noted that there was what appeared to be ranch soil on the hanger floor. So what may have happened is that region reported by Rickett where the soldiers were sifting through the soil may have had debris imbedded in the soil rather than just on the surface. Rather than completely sift through it on the spot, it was shoveled up and crated off for later sifting. This would account for the large number of crates being flown out the next day and the soil being seen on the hanger floor. This gouge would have been manmade as part of the recovery process, and therefore would never have been seen by either Marcel or Brazel.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 Extracts from 'Project X' From: armen victorian <Zius@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 08:00:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:14:54 -0400 Subject: Extracts from 'Project X' EXTRACTS FROM PROJECT "X" - ARE THERE ANY SIMLIRATIES THERE WITH THE AVIARY, OR THE BENNEWITZ'S CASE? 1. An employee, then, is anyone who provides information of intelligence vlaue in exchange for some recompense, monetary or otherwise. 2. Information collectors should be located in every geographically important area, in every popular organization of any size. 3. Motivation, discipline, and security. He may be required to recruit employees and provide them with an identity. In performing these functions the supervisor provides security for the government intelligence operative by acting as an intermediary between the operative and employees. 4. Support personnel are those who assist the information collectors. They are not directly invloved in the collection of informtion, but without them the collectors could not accomplish their mission. Support personnel are employed by the intelligence operative to provide security, communication, technical assistance, and to perform a variety of other tasks. 5. Security personnel include the intermediary, the surveillant, and the investigator. The intermediary provides the link between elements of an information collection network that are not known to each other. He may transmit information or he may pass documents and other material. 6. A source should ideally have a practical education along the lines of the information he is to report. 7. SOURCE MOTIVATION; Personal Gain - Somewhat similar to the person motivated by material gain is the source whose primary motive is personal gain. He is not attempting to profit materially but perhaps prefers a job granting him esteem, status, and respect. he may also be seeking a favor which has great personal but not monetary value. On a lighter note Project X suggests; The teenagers are the least reliable age group. The are immature, changing physically, mentally, and emotionally and too subjective in their attitude. Within this group, females are even less reliable. Armen Victorian
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B &B Affair From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:08:40 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:16:38 -0400 Subject: Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B &B Affair >From: Queenscotg@aol.com >Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:23:09 -0400 (EDT) >To: iufo@world.std.com >Subject: Re: IUFO: Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B & B Affair >>From: EdKomarek@aol.com >>Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:16:14 -0400 (EDT) >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Cc: skywatch@phoenix.net, iufo@world.std.com >>Subject: IUFO: Re: UFO UpDate: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B >>&B Affair >-> SearchNet's IUFO Mailing List >>>Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:10:35 -0500 (CDT) >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B&B >>>Affair -> SearchNet's IUFO Mailing List >First I have to ask...was your friend SURE that the people were >from MUFON??? >Who said so? Could it have just been some silly people >trying to cover their own embarrassment by shifting/disguising >their own identity. >Second, MUFON members are just individuals like Baptist >Church members, or VFW members are or Chamber of Commerce >members are...the >organizations to which they belong >does NOT CONTROL their behavior. I'm confident that 99% >of us who are MUFON members would never do such a >ill-mannered, ugly thing...most of the people I know >in MUFON are sincerely committed to getting >to the bottom of the whole UFO thing. -> Send "subscribe iufo " to majordomo@world.std.com -> Posted by: Queenscotg@aol.com Stacy has people thinking that I made this statement. I hope I showed otherwise in the part one of my rebuttal to Stacy. The post was by BB Rider and his address is at the top of the post I published in the Bulletin. You makes good points and I do agree that most of the Mufon members are really good people. I just don't know what happened here and I published the complaint to find out. I also think that Mufon is a wonderful organization but now in decline because issues like this don't get aired properly by those in Mufon headquarters. When is the last time you heard a critical article about Mufon in the Mufon Journal? When one has some constructive criticism for those at the top of the Mufon chain of command one gets belted over the head instead of a responsive ear. I am sure many other long time members can relate to this. That is if they are still members. Its seems Mufonhq is being pretty much run by Mufon Editor Dennis Stacy and Thomas Deuley(Retired NSA) now that Walt is getting older. My problem is with this leadership at the top not with the local and state Mufon members. I think poor leadership at the top is really hurting Mufon. If Stacy or Deuley would have just sent me a rebuttal for publication in the Bulletin I would have done so. That would have been that, as far as I was concerned. Instead Stacy tore into my character and mislead the readers that I was the source of the information. This is precisely what I am trying to explain is wrong with Mufon at the top. A lot of very good people have left Mufon because of this leadership vacuum. Talk about not airing dirty laundry. Have you heard what happened here in GA when Walt fired the state and assistant state directors of GA. Both of these people were well liked. Walt replaced the state director with a man with a SS tattoo on his arm. The members had to beg him to put on a long sleeved shirt before he went on TV for Mufon. It through Mufon GA into chaos and that certainly assisted me in just dropping out of Mufon after all these years. Finally things have been straightened out in GA but no thanks to Mufon Hq. Maybe I will become a member again. (Some information on this in Jim Moesley's Smear) This same sort of thing happened in Gulf Breeze and a whole branch of Mufon members split off into another organization. Then there was the sacking of popular Mufon Eastern Director Don Ware. The list goes on and on. I love Mufon but this sort of thing is self sabotage. The instance in GA was just another example where somebody on a power trip calls and complains to Walt and HQ and then HQ interferes with the running of the local organization. I believe according to the Mufon bylaws that directors are supposed to be elected by the membership not appointed. Maybe someone can give me something definite on this as I only vaguely remember reading the Bylaws in a Mufon publication. I understand lawyer Peter Gerstein has been looking into this too. BB Rider asked me if I wanted the telephone number of the owners of the Inn so I could contact them myself. I said yes but hoped the owners would write up a statement I could publish. So I am working to get the truth out as best I can on this whole matter in spite of Stacy's confusing tactics. Please note I am only speaking for myself in all this and not for ORTK. I hope others will pick up this thread and go with it. I would realy like to get back to two or three notable debunker buddies of mine. I might be missed. Ha The best, Ed Komarek (ORTK) --------- To subscribe to the ORTK BULLETIN by Ed Komarek send mail to: listserve@awaiter.com with the following text in the body of the message: subscribe ortk-bulletins
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 A layman's thoughts on 'propulsion' From: ASIUS <asius@mindless.com> [Mike Stahl] Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 16:01:19 +0930 Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:07:50 -0400 Subject: A layman's thoughts on 'propulsion' Hi All, I do not profess any great abilities as far as physics and atmospheric dynamics go, but I do have a possible theory on how a terrestrially engineered craft may be "propelled" through the atmosphere by manipulation of the various atmospheric densities. Please read this entire post before launching your 'assaults' on me. I propose that it is not inconceivable that a craft may be capable of atmospheric speeds far in excess of those with which we are currently aware, utilising 'Black Technology'. If a 'craft' was able to create and manipulate an area of decreased atmospheric density in the proposed direction of travel (by means unknown), would this not result in movement of the 'craft' into the area of decreased resistance? What I am trying to get at is that if such a process was successfully able to be employed, would this not mean that the craft would be capable of "silent running" ie. no sonic boom due to the 'craft' being enveloped in a region of 'lower than ambient' atmospheric pressure, thus eliminating or significantly reducing atmospheric compression because the craft instead of being 'propelled' as such, would be 'sucked' towards the proposed direction of travel. ie. The area of lower density. If this was possible by some form of eletronic/electric/electromagnetic manipulation of the regional atmospheric density, and that the area of manipulation was proportionally greater than the atmospheric displacement of the craft, would the craft not move 'silently' as the air surrounding the craft would be moving at a speed equal to or greater than that of the craft itself as it too would be flowing toward the area of decreased density/pressure. ie. There would be no contact between the 'physical' craft and the static atmosphere surrounding the 'envelope' of pseudo-vaccum actually causing the 'craft's' motion. Surely if one was able to manipulate the charge of the atmosphere by some form of atomic 'excitement' a decreased area of pressure could be maintained and directed which would also tend to explain the ability to maintain lift required to keep the 'craft' airborne. To assume that some advanced form of power generation was being employed would assist in explaining the lack of sound. This may also go some way toward explain the 'glowing' and 'flashes' so often reported by UFO witnesses as some sort of electrical discharge which would be necessary to create the effect suggested. This is about as far as I can go with this probably lunatic suggestion, at present. Your thoughts, comments and critiques will be graciously accepted. Please no comments of "you are a turkey" as I have explained my limited knowledge of the required sciences - I merely present this as a thought stimulation exercise from a lay-person's perspective. I am relatively new to this arena. Please excuse the punctuation and grammar - I am knackered (Australian for exhausted) due to severe sleep deprivation whilst trying to "catch up" on the UpDates. I still have over 100 articles to catch-up! Regards & best wishes to all, ASIUS - The Antipodean. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ASIUS asius@mindless.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- As Baldrick stood in deep thought he said aloud; "Isn't it strange Lord Blackadder, I've found a turnip shaped just like a 'thingy', it's quite a coincidence my Lord, as I have a 'thingy' shaped just like a turnip" From "Blackadder" by Rowan Atkinson. ________________________________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 Project 1947 - CIA UFO files From: Jan Aldrich <jan@CYBERZONE.NET> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:23:18 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:24:13 -0400 Subject: Project 1947 - CIA UFO files Greetings List Members, I have returned from Oklahoma. The conspiratorial juices are flowing with the rumor that the CIA will publish some accounts UFO reports which might have been the U-2. Of course, this would be a natural area for CIA interest although they did a terrible job with the security of the U-2 flights from Pakistan to Norway. A conspiratorial theory already being kicked around on the Internet says that the release of such information by the CIA is an attempt to take the wind out of the 50th anniversary UFO sails. Give me a break! If this release is noticed at all, it will be only in the UFO community, or as a one day press wonder. A previous CIA director ordered another CIA records search for UFO files. I don't know what the status of this search is. However, other CIA documents indicate that raw UFO data was retained for only six months and then destroyed. At one time the CIA alledgedly requested all UFO radar cases. If Leon Davidson were still alive, he would, of course, point to this as vindication of *his* conspiracy theories. No doubt the CIA and the other security and intelligence services have far more data that has been made available to the public. The question is: What status was assigned to such information? A new excuse has now been invented to justify non-release of UFO information: it will encourage those people who believe in ET visitations to use such information to bloaster their case. It is possible for any information to be misused. It should not be the concern of the government agencies how information is used or abused. Such nanny-ism is inconsistent with democracy. Best regards, Jan
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 'Beyond Roswell' - A Book From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:50:13 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:11:59 -0400 Subject: 'Beyond Roswell' - A Book BEYOND ROSWELL co-authored by Michael Hesemann and Philip Mantle is now available for review. Copies are now hot off the press and are available from our publishers in the USA and the UK. Anyone interested in review copies can contact our publishers at: USA Marlowe & Company, 632 Broadway, 7th Floor, New York, NY 10012. Tele: 212 460 5742. Fax: 212 460 5796. UK Michael O'Mara Books Ltd, 9 Lion Yard, Tremadoc Road, London, SW4 7NQ. Tele: 0171 720 8643. Fax: 0171 627 8953. Sales enquiries should also be addressed to our publishers. The first reviews are now starting to come in from the USA one of which reads: " Dear Philip, I am a Founding Member of the International UFO Museum and Research Center at Roswell, New Mexico and also a member of the Mutual UFO Network. I have just purchased two 'BEYOND ROSWELL' books - incredible and magnificent, the most powerful UFO Roswell book ever published - congratulations." David Spiek. " Fifty years after the infamous Roswell incident, isn't it high time the US government ended the cover-up on the truth about UFOs/ETs ? This sentiment is echoed in BEYOND ROSWELL's foreword, written by Jesse Marcel, MD, who, in l947 at age 11, was shown debris from a UFO crash retrieveal by his father, Major Jesse Marcel, whose name is now legendary in ufology. Micheal Hesemann (editor of the German Magazine 2000) and Philip Mantle (BUFORA Director) have teamed up to produce as definitive an examination as possible of the events surrounding the Rosell UFO/alien crash retrieval scenario. They have drawn on the available achival material concerning the circumstances and the personalities involved with Roswell, as well as the 'body of knowledge' painstakingly built up since the late 1970's be researchers like Stanton Friedmann. Hesemann and Mantle have added to the storehouse their own interviews with still-living eyewitnesses and have included achival and recent photos of key players so as to put faces to names. The authors expand upon recent revelations over the Santilli autopsy film as well as the theory that the autopsied alien was retrieved from an earlier l947 crash site at Socorro, Mew Mexico. Included are alalyses by Hesemann and native American Robert Morning Sky, of hieroglyphs, retrieved from the crash site, which have remarkable similarities with a number of ancient Earth scripts. One thing is certain: the Roswell phenomenon is not going to go away ! NEXUS MAGAZINE June - July l997. Yours, Philip Mantle.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 Re: Cats, Toast, & UFOs From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 11:05:26 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 22:27:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Cats, Toast, & UFOs The following was found by my wife in one of her favorite newsgroups. They may be onto something here ... >Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.community >Subject: Fwd: THE CAT/TOAST UFO CONNECTION >From: Terry_Hagedorn@wnpb.wvnet.edu >Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:56:58 -0400 > CATS, TOAST, AND UFO'S >Question: If when you drop a buttered piece of bread, it drops >butter side down and a cat always lands on its feet. What would >happen if you took a piece of buttered bread, strapped it on the >back of a cat (butter side up) and dropped it? >Answer: Even if you are too lazy to do the experiment yourself >you should be able to deduce the obvious result. The laws of >butterology demand that the butter must hit the ground, and the >equally strict laws of feline aerodynamics demand that the cat >can not smash it's furry back. >If the combined construct were to land, nature would have no way >to resolve this paradox. Therefore it simply does not fall. >That's right you clever mortal (well, as clever as a mortal can get), >you have discovered the secret of antigravity! A buttered cat will, >when released, quickly move to a height where the forces of >cat-twisting and butter repulsion are in equilibrium. This >equilibrium point can be modified by scraping off some of the butter, >providing lift, or removing some of the cat's limbs, allowing descent. >Most of the civilized species of the Universe already use this >principle to drive their ships while within a planetary system. The >loud humming heard by most sighters of UFOs is, in fact, the purring >of several hundred cats. >The one obvious danger is, of course, if the cats manage to eat the >bread off their backs they will instantly plummet. Of course the cats >will land on their feet, but this usually doesn't do them much good, >since right after they make their graceful landing several tons of >red-hot starship and irritated aliens crash on top of them. END
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 Re: Mogul and Weather Balloons, Faith and From: James A Diss <76710.234@CompuServe.COM> Date: 31 May 97 16:56:28 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 23:08:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Mogul and Weather Balloons, Faith and >Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:03:56 -0400 >From: "Serge Salvaille" <sergesa@connectmmic.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Mogul Balloons and Weather Balloons and Faith and Credibility Serge Wrote: >Let's bet that if at some point in time the US Government comes up with >a Bazooka Bubble Gum explanation about Roswell, the same advocates and >'scientific authorities' will follow the gospel with the same contempt, >shrugging away the 'naive believers' of a more down-to-earth >explanation: the extraterrestrial one. >What we have here is reverse science and loss of credibility. I was considering explaining the difference between a reasonable assertation of cause and the general lack of proof for the ET hypothesis in most cases, but I can't believe that anyone wouldn't know about this by know. I'm interested in the fact that you seem to consider the ET explanation more 'down to earth'. Why is this? And what in blue blazes is 'reverse science'? James A Diss ---------------------- HEALTH WARNING: Care Should Be Taken When Lifting This Product, Since Its Mass, and Thus Its Weight, Is Dependent on Its Velocity Relative to the User. --------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 Re: 'Beyond Roswell' - A Book From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:59:59 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 23:34:52 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Beyond Roswell' - A Book Regarding... >Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:50:13 +0000 >From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> >Subject: BEYOND ROSWELL Philip wrote: >BEYOND ROSWELL co-authored by Michael Hesemann and Philip Mantle is now available for review.< Philip, I received a copy of the book last week. Re the Santilli film chapters; these contain numerous claims that are known to be false, for example, "On Monday. April 15, 1996, Shell received a phone call from Capt. John McAndrews of the US Air Force, who claimed he was investigating the Santilli footage for the Clinton administration. According to Capt. McAndrews, President Clinton asked his science advisor John Gibbons to find out if the film is authentic or not...". As I'm sure you appreciate, I established with Bob this never happened. Bob's also quoted as confirming, "I find the physical characteristics of the "Roswell film" and the characteristics of the film to be totally consistent with film manufactured, exposed and processed in "1947", which I'm sure you also realise is an opinion which was retracted a long time ago, after Clive Tobin made Bob aware he wasn't analysing camera original film. Bob's August 1995 "95% certain" statement is reproduced and it's claimed, "A top expert has therefore, at least for the time being, confirmed the age of the Roswell film and stated that it must have been developed between 1947 and 1949!". But there's no mention that Bob acknowledged, over a year ago now, that those claims should be disregarded. As there are so many false and misleading statements and my copy still contains the story about Takano and Chiang, long proven and acknowledged to be abject nonsense, I could only assume my copy wasn't the same as the version to be published. I spoke to Lizzy Blanchard at Michael O'Mara Books and pointed out that Bob had recently stated, "I have just spent the past three days correcting page proofs of _Beyond Roswell_. Much of it has been revised based on feedback on the Nexus article". From what was discussed, it seems my copy _is_ the final print. Can you confirm that "Beyond Roswell" hasn't in fact been revised to reflect the corrected page proofs? James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 Re: 50 years of Roswell From: "Bero" <Berislav.Kucan@public.srce.hr> Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 12:44:46 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 22:41:59 -0400 Subject: Re: 50 years of Roswell I know all about celebrating 50th Roswell anniversary in USA and other countries. I live in Croatia, and here won't be any celebration. Could someone tell me will some conference, or something, be live on the WWW or IRC? Berislav Kucan
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 'UFOs: A Report on Australian Encounters' From: Stuart & Toni <livesey@trump.net.au> Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 09:15:34 +1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 23:59:33 -0400 Subject: 'UFOs: A Report on Australian Encounters' A new book has recently been released here in Australia entitled "UFOs: a report on Australian encounters" by Keith Basterfield. Keith is a highly respected investigator who has been researching the UFO phenomena since 1968. While dealing with Australian reports the book should be of great interest to anyone who is interested in UFOs because Keith uses the book to launch a theory he has developed over the nearly 30 years he has been interested in UFOs. He calls his idea "Image Theory" and suggests that it could account for many of the single person sightings that are not supported by any other evidence. At first I was a bit sceptical of "Image Theory" until I came across one example he gives that occurred one night here in Tasmania on the main road through one of Hobart's suburbs. The witness had been driving out of the city and had reached Ten Mile Hill and at this site the witness heard a sound like electronic music and then the road in front was lit up and he saw "a large figure in profile, as if on a movie screen". The witness was unable to stop before he seemed to drive through the image at which point the image disappeared. Keith Basterfield suggests that many sightings of this type can be explained by the mind of the viewer playing "tricks" as the viewer hovers between being awake and asleep. (That is a very simplistic description of Keith's theory) The author also gives instances of night time sightings where only one person has seen something while others with the witness have seen nothing. I found the Ten Mile Hill incident interesting and quite supportive of the theory because I often drive that road at night, it is a very quiet area with only a few houses and poor street lighting. The approach to that area is quite an easy drive and the biggest problem in driving through that area is to stay alert, just ask any other Metropolitan Transport Trust driver. I think we all find it very easy to let our minds wander as we drive through there. UFOs:a report on Australian encounters is published by Reed Books Australia - ISBN 0 7301 0496 6 Stuart Livesey
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > May > May 31 Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B & B Affair From: EdKomarek@aol.com Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 12:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 22:37:45 -0400 Subject: Re: MUFON, Dennis Stacy, and the B & B Affair Note from Ed Komarek: I received the following from Billy and am posting it for him as recieved with name and number deleted as he requested. Please look carefully, this is not my post!!!!!!!!! OK. I am going to call the number and the person today. I would really prefer that someone independent of Stacy and I continue this investigation at this point. I bet MUFON now has enough information to begin a investigation on its own, if the below is true, even without the name and phone number. I just hope it is done by someone in MUFON not as hostile as Stacy and not connected to the event in question. The best, Ed Komarek (ORTK) ----------------------------------------------------- Subj: MUFON & the B&B . . . Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 1:24 AM EDT From: bbryder@bga.com X-From: bbryder@bga.com (BB Ryder) Reply-to: bbryder@bga.com To: EdKomarek@aol.com Hi Ed, I finally called my friend (Ed: name deleted as requested) and told her about me E-mailing the B&B story on the Internet. She is still quite resentful of MUFON disrupting the seminar because she takes her research and the seminars seriously. She has names, places, dates and witnesses regarding the event and is willing to speak with you. And get this Ed, she originally sent a letter to Walter Andrus, president of MUFON an entire year prior to the abductee meeting. (Apparently this is an exclusive abductee group whose members reside all over the entire country which takes time to coordinate.) Walter gave her the name of a MUFON representative in Waco. They must have planned the crashing of the seminar months in advance. The main guy (there were only two crashers not three like I thought before.) who crashed the party had the letter from months before in his hand. The guy actually demanded an apology that the seminar date on the letter was inaccurate! He gave her his card with his name on it! She couldn't remember his name when I talked to her but she still has the card somewhere. The people attending the seminar that was crashed were wealthy, famous or politically connected. The motive of MUFON seems to be that they didn't want a secret meeting being held somewhere. I guess someone doesn't want abductees to meet or confer together without the supervision of a "overseer". She brought up that at least one (famous or well regarded) person who held a seminar at the Inn also knew something about MUFON not being what everyone thinks. She is an author who just returned from a book-signing tour and will be happy to talk to you regarding what she knows about MUFON and the disrupted seminar, with the stipulation that her name and the name of her business not be used publicly or privately. I am counting on you to delete her name and phone number before forwarding this E-mail and to not reveal it in other communication. ( Ed: Name and phone number deleted as requested by Billy) Your fellow researcher, Billy