UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 1 Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net> [Dennis Stacy] Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:52:38 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 00:55:47 -0500 Subject: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >Subject: re: UFO UpDate: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c >Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:17:17 -0800 ><snip> >> The search for underlying factors, or commonalities, is known as >> phenomenology, and it's the same approach Vallee ultimately >> applied to the phenomenon, thus mystifying his critics after the >> appearance of his first two "classic" scientific treatments of >> the subject. Vallee, too, took eyewitness accounts literally, >> even when they began to include a growing variety of seemingly >> physical impossibilities -- such as the ability to change shapes, >> beam people through solid objects, appear larger on the inside >> than exterior dimensions would indicate, associated paranormal >> effects (psychokinesis, telepathy, etc.), and so on. >Actually, my understanding of phenomenology is that it simply >sets aside any interest in the objective reality of a particular >phenomenon. It is neither hostile to an objective reality nor >supportive - but simply considers it irrelevant. As I understand >it, the fundamental postulate is something like " if people >believe it exists, they will act like it exists, and therefore it >might as well exist." >The problem with this is that it also makes the idea of "proof" >or any other epistemological process irrelevant. Phenomenology in >this sense is a philosophy more well suited to the sociology of >UFO reports than to determining objective existence, uncovering >physical properties, or analyzing the veracity of accounts. Jeez, Mark: It's the Sunday after Thanksgiving...the last thing I need is to get into a lengthy philosophical discussion! To take a dictionary definition, phenomenology is "the study of all possible appearances in human experience, during which considerations of objective reality and of purely subjective response are left out of account." But we all know how "lame" dictionary definitions are in such matters. Technically, issues of objective reality and subjective response are *temporarily* set aside. In practice, phenomenology is not a philosophy, but a *tool*, or technique, for arriving at an eventual philosophy. How it works or is applied is far too complicated to go into here, so a "simple" example will have to suffice. Say a phenomenologist wanted to study sports. To do so, he might take in a baseball, soccer, football, basketball, tennis, volleyball, handball, and ping pong game. He might come away with several observations. For example, while the physical size, shape and composition of each of the balls used is vastly different, they are all expressions of, or perhaps definitions of, what might be called "ball-ness," the nature of what it is to be a ball. It isn't that none of the balls aren't real or objective, but that ball itself has several expressions, or forms. He (or she) might next notice that are players, rules for play, fans in the stands, seats in various stadiums, and so on. By observing and pulling all of these together, he is then able to make underlying statements about sport itself, which are true of all sports, or all expressions of sports, indeed, which define what sports is. Obviously, this makes a phenomenologist somewhat different than a fan. The latter is likely to proclaim, say, that football is the only true sport, and soccer is for wimps. The phenomenologist would see no inherent (or objective) difference among any of the individual sports -- none would be better or worse in any sense of objective or subjective "meaning." As stated in my post, this is why both Keel and Vallee can apply phenomenology to the UFO phenomenon and come up with different answers. They interpret the data differently. This is also why Keel and Jacobs can have the same message, phenomenologically speaking, even though they disagree subjectively on the nature and cause of the phenomenon. Phenomenology is an aid, then, not a specific answer to a specific question, although it is employed in an attempt to uncover the latter. <snip> >Thus, as the reports become stranger, we must become more and >more cautious in verification and acceptance. The problem with >Keel, Vallee, and for that matter, Fort, is one which Vallee is >aware of but doesn't always apply: just because two things are >strange doesn't mean that they are the same thing, are generated >by the same cause, or have any connection whatsoever. I couldn't agree more. In fact, at one point in the Dr. X case, the doctor began reporting (unwitnessed) incidents of (if I remember correctly) telekinesis in which pieces of paper were stuck to his high ceilings. Aime Michel, I think it was, said it was easier to believe in the existence of ten-foot poles and flypaper. >Vallee has asserted the presence of telekinetic and telepathic >aftereffects from UFO encounters - but has never, to my >knowledge, scientifically substantiated any of those. Again, I agree, and said much the same thing. It's easy to get into trouble in this field when you start trying to account for everything a witness says or claims. <snip> >The Dr. X case is certainly fascinating, but let's keep in mind a >few cautions. First, the case is a single witness case. Thus, >according to Hynek, it can never be accorded more than a >probability of 3. That doesn't mean ignore it, but it does mean: >don't weight it heavily - especially when it represents a seldom >repeated part of the UFO pattern. Second, we do not have access >to the witness or the witness medical records, so there are a >number of things we can't verify about the supposed healing. >Third, we do have an apparently unusual "merging" of the objects. >But we cannot be sure if the witness correctly perceived this. >For instance, could the objects have passed behind each other? >Could some sort of lighting distortion made it appear that there >were two objects? Is there no technological explanation (such as >a holographic image) which is as or more credible in light of >current knowledge than a paranormal explanation? Perhaps, sure. But why technological *or* paranormal? Isn't a waking dream or a hallucination or altered state of consciousness of some sort just as viable? <snip> >There are tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of UFO reports. Of >these, relatively few suggest any paranormality. How, pray tell, do you define "paranormality"? A report of being beamed through a wall or window into a waiting space ship by a beam of light would strike many as paranormal. >Given this fact, I consider it best to concentrate on the core of >the UFO phenomenon - the kind of reports which make up the bulk >of the UFO phenomenon as we know it. And just what is this "core" and what does it consist of? Radar reports, radar/visuals, thousands of various reported shapes and behaviors (some ufos glow, some don't, etc.), landing trace cases that vary almost as widely in detail and effects, occupant cases, ufos that disappear or don't, abduction cases, abduction cases involving hybrid babies, ufos that come out of or enter into the water, flying diamonds, saucers and cigars? Now you should be able to appreciate why Vallee and Keel both found themselves in such hot water. <snip> >As a fiction writer, I can easily come up with any number of >reasonably plausible "technological" and perceptual >psychology-based explanations which could make an ETH or at least >non-paranormal kind of sense out of the case, some of which I >have outlined above. <huge snip on my part> Mark, you'll pardon me if I don't respond to each and every of your ETH explanations that I just snipped. The latter all strike me as special pleas for the ETH. In any event, we've already agreed that the Dr. X case isn't common to the field, so why go out of the way to try to include, or justify, it in a technological sense? There is much else about the case, hematoma and hemiparesis aside, that wasn't raised in my original post. My point wasn't to denigrate or solve the Dr. X case one way or the other. >Some ETH proponents accept abductions, and some even accept them >uncritically. Others reject them. Again, any reasonably good >fiction writer could provide scenarios for the apparent >contradiction between advanced "craft" engineering and much less >sophisticated medical work on humans, including: >1) Humans only deserve veterinary level treatment. >2) The aliens did not engineer the vehicles, but obtain them from >a technologically more sophisticated species. >3) The aliens find human pain and suffering entertaining and / or >instructive. Yes, but you're reaching again. For 2) you might as well hypothesize that they bought them at a used flying saucer and advanced technology fire sale. Thank God the previous owners left the instruction manual in the glove compartment! This is precisely what I mean by taking the ETH to the extreme. If so willing, one can use it to explain anything. >I would say however, speaking only for myself, that the jury is >still out on the validity of any particular abduction experience >as one which is objective and caused by the same source as more >conventional UFO reports. I agree again. >In summary, I remain unconvinced that the paranormal hypothesis >is justified by the best UFO data. And I am not prepared to >reject evaluative criteria and accept any report at face value. I wasn't trying to convince anyone of a paranormal explanation, nor did I suggest that you reject evaluative criteria or accept reports at face value. What I said was that, phenomenologically speaking, both Keel and David Jacobs have been to the mountain top and come down with essentially the same message, while disagreeing fundamentally as to the nature of the source of the message. Let me repeat: We're are currently suffering an invasion from alien beings and there is absolutely nothing you, I or the Air Force can do about it. Let me add that that's *their* message -- not mine. <Another giant snip. God, I love cut and paste!> >Short of successfully accomplishing disproof of (1) and (2), PNH >(paranormal hypothesis) adherents must contend that UFOs look >like products of the ETH, but that this appearance is simply a >ruse. That, in fact, the UFO source is simulating ETH-style UFOs >for some other purpose. Unfortunately, this is a much less >productive avenue than disproving solidity and occupants. Why? >Because once one ventures down this path, one can multiply >deception in any desired direction. Yes, and the same is true of using the ETH to explain any sort of behavior as the product of an advanced technology, and then attributing various motives or attitudes to the aliens inside the saucers. >A final avenue which PNH supporters often take is to look for >cases which are anomalous and on the fringes of the UFO >phenomenon. As I have shown in another essay, this style is often >used by Keel, for instance with regard to the famous Mothman. >Despite the fact that Mothman was never seen entering or leaving >a UFO, or that most UFO occupants lack the distinguishing >characteristics of Mothman (wings, glowing red eyes, apparent >"headlessness"), Keel asserts that the unusual Mothman events >must be related to UFOs, because UFO sightings occurred in the >area around the same time as Mothman sightings. Yet we can all >respect the possibility that correlation in time (within wide >limits) does not represent causation or a mutual source. Again, I am not a PNH supporter. However, it should be pointed out that Keel and Vallee didn't go out looking for anomalous cases -- the latter came to them, and many other investigators, because they were investigating ufo reports in the first place. (Magonia, for example, appears to have been stimulated by and based on the so-called French Humanoid wave of 1954.) Just as abduction and missing time cases came to ufo investigators. Vallee and Keel simply tried to come up with a theory that would incorporate such cases. For better or worse, both went through the ETH and beyond. I'm not arguing for the position of either: I'm simply pointing out how they got there, as opposed to Jerry Clark's view, which is that Keel is/was fundamentally irrational and paranoid. >I think that if PNH proponents consider their alternative to be a >better one than ETH, they need to demonstrate that with better >and stronger predictions, and these should be predictions which >are such that, if they are demonstrated, ETH _must_ be false. >Mark Cashman And maybe you'd care to make a prediction about future ET behavior based on the well documented ETH (and any accompanying evidence) to date? If I read my Keel correctly, and there's no guarantee that I do, he's saying that the situation is a condition of human existence. In other words, you can expect more of the same, whatever the same is, and what you can't expect is convincing, incontrovertible proof of physical flying saucers. As for what I wish, hopefully someone will donate an old 386 and 14.4 modem to Keel so he can respond on his own. Secondly, I hope that anyone who chooses to respond to the above knows how to cut and paste. I get pretty bored reading myself the second and third time around, and I trust everyone else on this list does, too. Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 1 Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:35:38 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 00:58:23 -0500 Subject: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:21:45 -0600 (CST) > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > >Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 00:46:35 -0800 > >From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > >And what would you say if a mothman approached you instead? <G> > >John Koopmans > <Much, much, very much snipping> > Dear John: > I'd say a) you've confused Jerry Clark's remarks with mine; > b) you seem to have completely misunderstood what I said, and > c) need to go back and read the post again. > Dennis I did read the post again. I responded only to your words, which I included above each response. The e-mail was from you, not Jerry Clark. Unfortunately, language is never perfect, and it is always possible for someone to misunderstand. If so, please tell me what I misunderstood. My understanding of the relevant portions of your post are: 1) you state that the problem with Keel's theory is "not that it is the product of an irrational and paranoid mind" (I assume you agree with Jerry Clark here since you used "is" and did not use "allegedly") but "that it takes UFO accounts literally and tries to find an overarching theory to explain every aspect of the phenomenon"; 2) you object that Keel and Vallee take "eyewitness accounts literally, even when they began to include a growing variety of seemingly physical impossibilities"; 3) you state that you believe that the ETH "was the product of profoundly irrational and deeply paranoid minds"; 4) you state that, according to Jacobs and Keel, "that we're presently under invasion by gods/demons/aliens" and that "there is absolutely nothing either you or I (or the Air Force) can do about it"; and 5) you feel there would be "(small) consolation" in saying "that Keel guy was a nutter!". If I have misunderstood any of the above, please let me know. My comments were based on the above understanding. John Koopmans
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 1 Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net> [Dennis Stacy] Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 18:04:12 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 00:59:58 -0500 Subject: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >Subject: re: UFO UpDate: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c >Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:17:17 -0800 >Thus, as the reports become stranger, we must become more and >more cautious in verification and acceptance. The problem with >Keel, Vallee, and for that matter, Fort, is one which Vallee is >aware of but doesn't always apply: just because two things are >strange doesn't mean that they are the same thing, are generated >by the same cause, or have any connection whatsoever. >Mark Cashman Mark, I almost forgot to ask: does that mean that Keel, Vallee and Fort are somehow responsible for those ufologists who think ufos have something to do with crop circles, animal mutilations and black helicopters -- or can we conceivably attribute any such claims of an intimate "connection" to those staid, conservative, scientific, rational and non-paranoid ETHers? After all, there's nothing paranormal about crop circles, dead animals and helicopters. All three can be definitely proven to objectively exist, in one form or another. Much more so, come to think of it, than ufos themselves. Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 1 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 21:22:44 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 01:01:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:26:40 -0800 (PST) > From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > The second flash that Arnold saw directly and described as having > "reflected brightly on my plane" may have been of the same > intensity and also enhanced over normal reflected sunlight. > Since the craft were described as being generally round or ovate, > those surfaces wouldn't present much area at all for specular > reflection, but perhaps part of their unusual shape near the tail > or rear had a larger flat section that could do better. Actually, Jim, I think Arnold's original cross section sketch indicated that the objects were flat on top and curved on the bottom. ------ Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at http://www.geocities.com/~mcashman - Original digital art, writing, and UFO research - Author of SF novels available at... http://www.infohaus.com/access/by-seller/The_Temporal_Doorway_Storefront ------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 1 CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS: MUFON of Connecticut site now From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@IX.NETCOM.COM> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:38:18 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 01:04:52 -0500 Subject: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS: MUFON of Connecticut site now The Mutual UFO Network, Connecticut chapter, has opened a website at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/9047 This new website, which I maintain for the chapter, contains cases from the state of Connecticut, a sighting submission form, and contact information for the Connecticut chapter. Links to other worthwhile sites, including MUFON sites, are also present. A recently investigated case with a detailed report (including maps, digital paintings, and triangulation results) is part of the case section. The site also includes summaries of past investigations, and cases garnered from other sources. Project 1947 coordinator Jan Aldrich, a chapter member, has kindly provided some suggestions as to possible areas of fruitful historical research in Connecticut. If you have any information on UFO sightings in the state of Connecticut, please e-mail me at mcashman@ix.netcom.com Information on current and historical sightings is appreciated. ------ Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at http://www.geocities.com/~mcashman - Original digital art, writing, and UFO research - Author of SF novels available at... http://www.infohaus.com/access/by-seller/The_Temporal_Doorway_Storefront ------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 1 Re: Mars Face Report, Austin, TX From: JJ Mercieca <mufor@maltanet.net> Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 11:21:58 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 11:22:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Mars Face Report, Austin, TX Stan McDaniel's rebuttal to Faye Flam's Mars Face article kindly posted to this list by Brian Cuthbertson. Regards, JJ Mercieca Malta UFO Research http://www.mufor.org/ ----- November 30, 1997 Letters to the Editor, Austin American-Statesman (by fax) We of the Society for Planetary SETI Research (SPSR) greatly regret the article in the American-Statesman "MARS PROBE TO CHECK THAT FAMILIAR "FACE" (Nov. 27). The tone of the article is quite misleading. Dr. Mark J. Carlotto's presentation of a body of peer-reviewed scientific evidence to a technical seminar at the University of Pennsylvania is inappro priately concatenated with the speculations of tabloids, cults, and "believers." The article gives the erroneous impression that Dr. Carlotto has "followers" that constitute such cultish groups, and that he is out "spreading the word." Dr. Carlotto has nothing to do with "cults" and "followers." He is one of a number of academically qualified scientists and professionals in our research organization who have carefully studied the data, presented and published peer-reviewed scientific papers, and found by four separate statistical tests that there is a favorable probability for some of the objects on Mars being artificial. We are especially disturbed by the comments quoted from Dr. Michael Malin, who is not a NASA spokesperson but a private contractor. Dr. Malin has regularly shown that he has a mistaken understanding of Dr. Carlotto's procedures. His statement that if the "Face on Mars" turns out in new higher resolution images to still look like a face, this would prove nothing, is particularly reprehensible. It would appear that the actual "believers" are those in the opposite camp, who will not accept new data unless it suits their preconceived ideas of reality. Sincerely, Stanley V. McDaniel
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 1 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:16:51 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 16:59:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> > Subject: re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 21:22:44 -0800 > > Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:26:40 -0800 (PST) > > From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > > The second flash that Arnold saw directly and described as having > > "reflected brightly on my plane" may have been of the same > > intensity and also enhanced over normal reflected sunlight. > > Since the craft were described as being generally round or ovate, > > those surfaces wouldn't present much area at all for specular > > reflection, but perhaps part of their unusual shape near the tail > > or rear had a larger flat section that could do better. > Actually, Jim, I think Arnold's original cross section sketch > indicated that the objects were flat on top and curved on the > bottom. That might explain it, Mark, if the odds were substantial that the top of one of the nine would accidentally be oriented just right to reflect the sun's rays exactly to Arnold's airplane. With the UFOs flying some 1100 mph faster than his plane, though on a non-parallel track, I think there'd be only a couple thousandths of a second in which the reflection could sweep cross his airplane to attract his attention even if the UFO were tilted at just the proper angle. And then if it were rotating its tilt (rolling) rapidly too, this would further shorten the duration of the specular flash. Combine that with its having occurred twice, and I would still leave open the likelihood that it was purposely directed at Arnold's plane to catch his attention. It may take a bit more "ET magic" to explain how the flat tops of the shiny UFOs stayed so immaculately clean and free of aerosols, bird poop, etc., as to be such good reflecting surfaces. Jim Deardorff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 1 Re: 'Rand' Document - Backgrounder From: Ktperehwon <Ktperehwon@aol.com> [Karl T. Pflock] Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:31:36 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 17:06:46 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Rand' Document - Backgrounder >Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 15:41:00 -0800 >From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'Rand' Document - Backgrounder > Karl Pflock may think my posting was aimed at him. It wasn't. Not at all, Jan! I merely was adding to the facts you provided, correcting an innocent error you made, and letting those on the list know where they might learn more.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 1 Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:51:56 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 19:41:15 -0500 Subject: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, on 12/1/97 12:59 AM: > Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 18:04:12 -0600 (CST) > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net> [Dennis Stacy] > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> > >Subject: re: UFO UpDate: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > >Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:17:17 -0800 > I almost forgot to ask: does that mean that Keel, Vallee and Fort > are somehow responsible for those ufologists who think ufos have > something to do with crop circles, animal mutilations and black > helicopters -- or can we conceivably attribute any such claims of > an intimate "connection" to those staid, conservative, > scientific, rational and non-paranoid ETHers? After all, there's > nothing paranormal about crop circles, dead animals and > helicopters. All three can be definitely proven to objectively > exist, in one form or another. Much more so, come to think of it, > than ufos themselves. Crop circles are from "saucer nests" and landing traces. Dead animals are from the Hamilton hoax, Snippy and "Strange Harvest". Helicopters... well, I think Keel was the first one to bring up the "phantom aircraft". "Responsible?" Well, I suppose that it might be so in the sense that Lorenzen is "responsible" for getting US researchers to pay attention to credible occupant reports. But as I think I said in my earlier post, my position is not to _reject_ these "high-strangeness" reports or even high-strangeness theories, but not to allow a small proportion of the data, with an undetermined level of connection to the UFO phenomenon, to dictate what should be done in research, nor should they open the gates to uncritical acceptance of data that _does_ indeed violate physics as we know it, as opposed to that which vioates engineering as we know it. (Note the phrase "uncritical acceptance".) UFO cases from NL- CE-III may violate engineering as we know it, but analysts like Hill have provided reasons to be confident that those cases don't violate engineering as we know it. However a significant portion of abduction and fringe cases, usually adopted by PNH adherents or UFO skeptics, do indeed violate physics as we know it, not to mention biology and a few other areas. ------ Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at http://www.geocities.com/~mcashman - Original digital art, writing, and UFO research - Author of SF novels available at... http://www.infohaus.com/access/by-seller/The_Temporal_Doorway_Storefront ------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 1 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: fergus@ukraine.corp.mot.com [George Fergus] Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:18:51 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 19:55:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:06:58 -0500 > From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> > Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > I used 100 mph as as estimated speed of Arnold's plane. Since he > flew southward parallel to these "birds" for a period of time, > yet they managed to pull away from him (travel faster, other wise > he would have noted the sighting line to the birds rotating to > his LEFT...opposite direction of the rotation of a sighting line > to objects traveling faster than the plane) I assume they must > have been going faster than 100 mph. Is it clear from something he says that he was actually flying south, parallel to the objects' flight path? (Sorry if this has already been covered, but as has been surmised I am not familiar with the details of Arnold's sighting, and didn't spot this info in the report by Dr. Maccabee that has been referenced here.) In the radio interview, Arnold says he "turned the plane around" in order to get a better look at the objects out his window. This is oddly worded if all he did was make a right turn (changing his heading from east to south). Initially I thought that he might have turned north first, and so had to "turn around" simply to go south, but I have been pretty well trounced for that notion. Now I wonder if he could actually have turned southwest and thus have been more perpendicular to the direction of the objects' flight? Also, do we know at what time point during the 2 1/2 minute sighting he actually made this turn? If he did it relatively early on, he is more likely to have ended up flying parallel to them, whereas if he didn't turn until after the objects were south of his line of flight, then he is more likely to have had to turn his plane southwestward in order to put the objects directly out the window to his left. -George Fergus
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 1 UFO Database interest From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:50:32 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 20:16:27 -0500 Subject: UFO Database interest I posted an article in response to another recently regarding a universal UFO report database. I got many responses. One in particular, shows that, with some added help from those out there in various areas, we can achieve this. Please read the e-mail below, and if interested respond to: jhenry@wavefront.com (This includes also being a source of database data.) If we can cover all the bases, we can have one up and running very soon. Any help setting this up is appreciated and will be open for all to use (free). Joel Henry Minnesota MUFON From: "Duffy, Robin" <rduffy@pulaski.net> To: "'jhenry@wavefront.com'" <jhenry@wavefront.com> Subject: UFO Database Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:21:34 -0500 Mr. Henry: I read with interest your post on creating a comprehensive UFO database with filtering capability, etc. I believe I can take your idea one step farther and offer some assistance. Please allow me to explain. My name is Robin Duffy. I work as a microcomputer Specialist for a K-12 school district. One of my duties is to create databases to hold and analyze information. I have recently begun to create Access databases using a web front end. Using the web as a front end allows researchers from all over the world to access the data. The web works surprisingly well as a front end. For an example of what I mean, have a look at small research project I've started into Phillip Corso's book, "The Day After Roswell". This project is based on a web-driven database, where we catalog facts from the book and then collect information to verify what we can. This is a small project right now, but I hope it will generate steam. Look at the database at www.rduffy.pulaski.net/corso to see how it works. As a visitor, you can only look at and filter the data (for example, see just references to a particular person). Registered researchers log in with a password - they can add or edit data. I have reserved the right to delete records for myself, but I can do that over the web as well. I can set up multiple security levels (some can add but not edit, some can edit but not add, etc.) and restrict access to some or all of the database. I (or a project manager) can also maintain users remotely via the web. What I am proposing is that I can write a web-driven database for you that can allow access to anyone in the world, yet maintain strict control over who can do what. The only problem is I do not have enough bandwidth to set up such a resource. I currently ride piggy-back on the school's Internet access and cannot allocate much more resource than I've already borrowed. Luckily I can develop on a remote server (I use Visual InterDev, a truly marvelous product). Here's what I would need: 1. Exactly what data you would want to organize, and how you want to organize it. I (or someone else) can create the actual Access database (we'll need to use Access 97) and ship it via email to a webmaster. Changes to the underlying tables would need to be handled this way as well. ( IIS has a bug dealing with SQL Server memo fields via ODBC which is why I use Access. I have used Access on tables with tens of thousands or records with good success). 2. A dedicated Windows NT 4.0 server running Service Pack 3 and IIS 3.0 or higher. I would recommend at least 10G of dedicated hard drive space and at least 96M of RAM on a Pentium 200 or higher. A T1 or better connection would be required. 3. A machine ODBC data source set up on the server to point to the Access database, using the drivers from Office 97 Professional or better and the latest version of the Frontpage Server Extensions. 4. An account on the NT box with Create rights to the webroot. 5. A webmaster willing to manage such a project. I would create the front end using Secure Sockets Layer to prevent others with the same development tools I use from making changes. I can password protect some or all of the project, or allow visitor read-only access much like my own project. I think you see the value of this particular setup. From the Internet, anyone in the world can participate. The only browser requirement is that the browser supports tables and forms - no Java or ActiveX required - so browser support is broad-based. With properly configured security, you have your vision of a comprehensive data repository. Thank you for listening to my proposal. Robin Duffy www.rduffy.pulaski.net Robin has volunteered to setup the database. So we need hardware, software, mucho typists to enter data, and sources, etc. Joel Henry ***************************************************** Minnesota MUFON Webmaster Minnesota MUFON Web Page= http://www.wavefront.com/~jhenry/index.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 1 Planetary Mysteries Update (12/1/97 From: planmyst@planetarymysteries.com (Kynthia) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:24:39 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 20:38:32 -0500 Subject: Planetary Mysteries Update (12/1/97 TAWREN BANNISTER please contact Prof. McDaniel at mcdrpt@aol.com ___________ We, at Planetary Mysteries appreciate your ongoing support and pioneering spirit. Together we are discovering new pathways of perceiving. Happy Holidays, Kynthia & Associates <a href=http://www.planetarymysteries.com> http://www.planetarymysteries.com </a> NEW ON PLANETARY MYSTERIES SINCE OUR LAST UPDATE: * EASY TO NAVIGATE HOME PAGE (Refresh your browsers) * SPHINX T-SHIRT * MARS FACE TETRAHEDRON * MARS FACE WALL RELIEF (Holiday Special) * BOOK SPECIAL: The McDaniel Report $7 off! * VIDEO SPECIAL: UFO Sightings $3 off! * MUSIC SPECIAL: from Mark Dwane $4 off! * Our new Secured Purchasing System is completely installed and running smoothly. * SPHINX UPDATE * SEKMET 2,3, & 4 by John Anthony West * UPDATE FROM SEPT.'97 PASADENA MARS RALLY * "Your Mind And Soul Can Traverse The Field Of Time With Ease" * EL NINO UPDATE * SPACEWALK (from our readers) * UFO SIGHTING ON MARS? * CONNECTION TO GENESIS * IMAGES OF THE MOON MIRANDA * RESPONSE TO GENESIS/GENESET BOOK REVIEW * HOURS COUNT! (FLYBYTE) * KYNTHIA'S PHOTO ALBUM * * * * * * We wish you a HAPPY HOLIDAY SEASON and a smooth transition into the new range of possibilities now unfolding at this time.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 1 Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net> [Stacy] Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:27:29 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 21:27:04 -0500 Subject: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c >Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:35:38 -0800 >From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c >> Dennis >I did read the post again. I responded only to your words, which >I included above each response. The e-mail was from you, not >Jerry Clark. Unfortunately, language is never perfect, and it is >always possible for someone to misunderstand. If so, please tell >me what I misunderstood. >My understanding of the relevant portions of your post are: >1) you state that the problem with Keel's theory is "not that it >is the product of an irrational and paranoid mind" (I assume you >agree with Jerry Clark here since you used "is" and did not use >"allegedly") but "that it takes UFO accounts literally and tries >to find an overarching theory to explain every aspect of the >phenomenon"; John: We can't go on meeting like this. Maybe rereading the original post a third time would be the charm. You still don't understand in what way I was originally responding to Clark. No, I don't agree with Jerry, and in my original post I had Keel's "problem" in quotes, to indicate a problem alleged by someone else, not me. >2) you object that Keel and Vallee take "eyewitness accounts >literally, even when they began to include a growing variety of >seemingly physical impossibilities"; No, John, I didn't object at all, I was simply explaining how Vallee and Keel arrived at the findings that they did. If you want to argue that they arrived at them some other way, fine, be my guest. >3) you state that you believe that the ETH "was the product of >profoundly irrational and deeply paranoid minds"; No, John, I didn't. I compared Jacobs' message with Keel's and said that there was no fundamental *phenomenological* difference in the two, simply a difference in perceived cause. I then suggested that if Keel's theory was the product of an irrational and paranoid mind -- which someone else originally said, BTW, *not me* -- then you could arguably make the same assumption of Jacobs' hypothesis. >4) you state that, according to Jacobs and Keel, "that we're >presently under invasion by gods/demons/aliens" and that "there >is absolutely nothing either you or I (or the Air Force) can do >about it"; and Yes, that's what Keel and Jacobs both imply, although it's a crude, hyberbolic summary of same on my part. >5) you feel there would be "(small) consolation" in saying "that >Keel guy was a nutter!". Go back and read the post aagain and try to figure out what is meant when one is talking in terms of phenomenology. >If I have misunderstood any of the above, please let me know. My >comments were based on the above understanding. >John Koopmans Now you know. Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 1 Re: Hundreds of them..... From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 19:34:41 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 21:29:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Hundreds of them..... > Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 11:32:23 -0800 > From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Hundreds of them..... > > Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 15:57:44 +0000 > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Hundreds of them..... > <snip> > > I'll tell you what Jim, everyone for that matter, I'll put my > > money where my mouth is, if anyone can name one hundred seperate > > explanations for UFOs either individually or collectively I > > will buy them a bottle of thier favourite drink! > > The first person to email me with a hundred plus list gets the > > bottle, being that you now have the first thirty that should'nt > > be too difficult. > > -- > > Are you a man or a mouse, come on squeek up! > > Sean Jones > Here's the best I could come up with - a total of 105 explanations. No > bottle expected - glad to be able to help. > John Koopmans > 1) Spacecraft from another planet/planets > 2) Time travellers <snip> > 104) Refracted starlight > 105) Spook bombs In my rush to post the above, I realized afterwards that I included a few "repeat" items. In the list below, I have removed the repeated items, and included a few new items, for a total of 104. For convenience, I also organized the information by category. These categories are arbitrary, and if anyone can come up with better categories, please advise. John Koopmans CELESTIAL OBJECTS Venus Mars Jupiter Moon Meteors/meteor showers Saturn Vega (star) The Perseids Comet ANIMALS (INSECTS, BIRDS) Glowing Bugs Migratory birds Fireflies Insect swarms NATURAL/ATMOSPHERIC PHENOMENA Earth Lights Swamp Gas Ball lightning Cumulous/lenticular Clouds Abnormal weather conditions Ice crystals Phosference in the atmosphere Luminescence - plate tectonics High flying seed pods Ionized air Atmospheric plasma effects Atmospheric inversion Air bubbles Atmospheric "blue jets" Atmospheric "red sprites" Lightning Aurora Borealis (Northern Lights) Volcano Parhelia (sun dogs) Cloud altimeter (Aime Michel) Gliding hailstones (Aime Michel) Gossamer Cobwebs flying high Distant fire Lubbock lights MIND (STATE, PERCEPTION) Hallucinations Day dreams/ Night dreams Reflections of light ( ie car headlights off a cloud) Mirages Optical illusions Hysteria/Dimentia Mind control Archetype (Carl Jung) Film defect Reflections in glass Specks of dust before eyes Red blood corpuscles inside eyes Refracted starlight TECHNOLOGY (AERIAL, MILITARY, SCIENTIFIC) Secret military/governmental/research aircraft Laser Lights Model aircraft/helicopters Falling satellite/space debris Holograms Weather balloons Orbitting Satellite Dummy parachute Research balloons Weather balloons Blimps Zeppelins Jettisoned spacecraft junk Helicopter Ultra Light Rocket Glider MAN-MADE/HUMAN ACTIVITY Kites Advertising airplanes Search lights Lighthouse Street lights Car headlights House lights Advertising balloon Flares Distress signal Jet trail Fireworks BELIEF SYSTEMS (RELIGIOUS, SUPERNATURAL, LEGEND, MYTH, FOLKLORE) Biblical prophecy Ezekial's wheel Psi Phenomenon Apparitions Plasma craft (i.e. Carlos Diaz) Spirits Angel's hair Ghost rockets Spook bombs Demons/Angels Mothman (John Keel) Fairies/elves OTHER Fraud Misinformation Foo fighter ORIGIN THEORIES Spacecraft from another planet/planets Time travellers Hollow Earth Hollow moon Atlantis Multi-dimensional craft Earth's etheric analog (opposite/mirror Earth) Interdimensional beings/craft from alternate futures Gaia's revenge
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 1 Upcoming Lecture of Interest From: "Michael DeRobertis" <mmdr@lhotse.phys.yorku.ca> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:49:09 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 21:36:25 -0500 Subject: Upcoming Lecture of Interest Upcoming Event Sponsored by The Ontario Skeptics ------------------------------------------------ Dr Mark Kingwell Professor of Philosophy at the University of Toronto, will speak to the Ontario Skeptics on THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE: Abduction Conspiracy Hysteria at the Millennium The talk will take place on: Tuesday 9 December 1997 at 8:00 pm at the First Unitarian Congregation Building which is located at 175 St Clair Ave W., Toronto ----------------------------------------------------------------- a Dr. Kingwell received his PhD in philosophy at Yale University, taught at Yale and York Universities, then moved to the University of Toronto where he has been an assistant professor of philosophy since 1993. His latest book, Dreams of Millennium, was a finalist for the Gordon Montador Prize for social commentary, and won high praise from reviewers. He has two more books coming out in the near future. His essays and columns have appeared in more than 25 magazines and newspapers in Canada, the USA and the UK. ----------------------------------------------------------------- The Ontario Skeptics is a non-profit association with no religious affiliation. Admission for non-members is $5 at the door which may be deducted from the price of membership in the Ontario Skeptics. For more information, phone (905) 764-7013 or send e-mail to: mmdr@yorku.ca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 2 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 00:38:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 05:25:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony >From: fergus@ukraine.corp.mot.com [George Fergus] >Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:18:51 -0600 (CST) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony >> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:06:58 -0500 >> From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >> Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> I used 100 mph as as estimated speed of Arnold's plane. Since he >> flew southward parallel to these "birds" for a period of time, > >yet they managed to pull away from him (travel faster, other wise > >he would have noted the sighting line to the birds rotating to > >his LEFT...opposite direction of the rotation of a sighting line > >to objects traveling faster than the plane) I assume they must > >have been going faster than 100 mph. >Is it clear from something he says that he was actually flying >south, parallel to the objects' flight path? Although he didn't specifically say "I was flying south," what he did say is: "I observed these objects notr only through the glass of my airplane but turned my airplane sideways where I could open my window and observe them with a completely unobstructed view. (without sunglasses)." This would be the left window he was looking through so he had turned his plane to the right. I don't know whether or not he flew exactly southward, itn would depend upon how far south of Mt. Rainier the objects had traveled up to the time he turned the plane. <snip> >In the radio interview, Arnold says he "turned the plane around" >in order to get a better look at the objects out his window. This >is oddly worded if all he did was make a right turn (changing >his heading from east to south). Initially I thought that he >might have turned north first, and so had to "turn around" simply >to go south, but I have been pretty well trounced for that >notion. Now I wonder if he could actually have turned southwest >and thus have been more perpendicular to the direction of the >objects' flight? It would have made no sense for him to turn the plane "around" in the ordinary sense, since that would take him away from the objects and away from his general heading eastward. >Also, do we know at what time point during the 2 1/2 minute >sighting he actually made this turn? If he did it relatively >early on, he is more likely to have ended up flying parallel to >them, whereas if he didn't turn until after the objects were >south of his line of flight, then he is more likely to have had >to turn his plane southwestward in order to put the objects >directly out the window to his left. True, we don't know when he turned. However I would bet it was after the objects had passed Mt. Rainier.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 2 Re: UFO Database interest From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 05:21:08 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 05:19:46 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Database interest >Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:50:32 -0600 >To: updates@globalserve.net >From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> >Subject: UFO Database interest >From: "Duffy, Robin" <rduffy@pulaski.net> >To: "'jhenry@wavefront.com'" <jhenry@wavefront.com> >Subject: UFO Database >Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:21:34 -0500 >Mr. Henry: > I read with interest your post on creating a comprehensive UFO >database with filtering capability, etc. I believe I can take your idea >one step farther and offer some assistance. Please allow me to explain. <snip> > What I am proposing is that I can write a web-driven database >for you that can allow access to anyone in the world, yet maintain >strict control over who can do what. The only problem is I do not have >enough bandwidth to set up such a resource. I currently ride piggy-back >on the school's Internet access and cannot allocate much more resource >than I've already borrowed. Luckily I can develop on a remote server (I >use Visual InterDev, a truly marvelous product). > Here's what I would need: >1. Exactly what data you would want to organize, and how you want to >organize it. I (or someone else) can create the actual Access database >(we'll need to use Access 97) and ship it via email to a webmaster. >Changes to the underlying tables would need to be handled this way as >well. ( IIS has a bug dealing with SQL Server memo fields via ODBC which >is why I use Access. I have used Access on tables with tens of thousands >or records with good success). >2. A dedicated Windows NT 4.0 server running Service Pack 3 and IIS 3.0 >or higher. I would recommend at least 10G of dedicated hard drive space >and at least 96M of RAM on a Pentium 200 or higher. A T1 or better >connection would be required. Robin, Setting up such a database is of course a good idea. But I raised my eyebrows over the machine specifications you posted. Why NT Server? Why not use the server of an Internet provider and rent hard disk space? And why not Windows 95? The usual way of conduct of estimating the capacity of an automated system is to first specificy how many records you have, how many bytes per record, etc. Add to that the operating system and the apps, like Access and IIS, and you get the required hard disk space. Since you don't know yet how many records you get and the average system gets by with 2-4 gig hard disk, it seems that 10 gigabytes is - to put it mildly - somewhat high on the Richter scale. The same goes for working memory. 96 Meg? The average configuration you buy in the shops has 32. What combination of OS and applications are you planning to run? Do IIS 3, Access and NT require 96 Meg? Since it seems unclear at this point how many records you get and how big those records are in terms of disk space, I would advise to: . either find out how big the database will be in terms of records and space per record . or, if that's impossible, start with a more average set up, collect cases and reserve money for when an upgrade is required. Also, try to get the software free. Microsoft provides free copies of most of its software - in any case Access - to every journalist who writes about the IT sector. If there's an American IT journalist on this list, make him/her ask Microsoft for it. Unless of course someone likes the idea of donating a pile of money without asking questions, for the good of the UFO community. But a more conservative set up would in any case make a better chance. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 2 UFOR: Tales from NASA Telemetry.... From: Francisco Lopez <d005734c@dc.seflin.org> Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:16:11 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 05:33:46 -0500 Subject: UFOR: Tales from NASA Telemetry.... During this past weekend, I traveled to North Central Florida, where I interviewed a NASA former employee who used to work, among other things, in telemetry. Be aware that many of the details are deliberately left out and some information could be changed to protect the identity of the interviewed. The person, who is finishing his PH D in Physics told me about the many times they tracked objects traveling at speeds over 200,000 MPH (320,000 KPH), crossing in a matter of seconds the whole USA air space. Objects that changed directions, stopped and shot up and disappeared. He told me about the several times planes were dispatched to intercept an the interesting conversation they heard. Also about the interesting things he saw while in NASA, "a civilian agency controlled by the military." He told me about the Apollo program and the moon incidents. We watched the original edition of the Hoagland briefing to the NASA engineers, which he got in his desk by accident, when they got a great internal commotion about the face of Mars. He was there. All the engineers in his section who were ordered to the conference were fired later. Government cars parked in front of his home very frequently. In the tape Richard Hoagland, shows very nice images from Mars and a good computer treatment of the images. The remarkable thing, however, seemed to be the finding of a pattern that, corresponded well to tetrahedral math, like the ones used for fluid mechanics. They applied the pattern and the location and correlated it to the patterns in the other planets in which, most of activity seems to occur between 19.5 N and 19.5 South Latitudes. A couple of weeks before a flyby to Neptune they were able to predict that an atmospheric disturbance, similar the Jovian Red Spot will be in the planet at the expected region. They speculated about how come a pattern in a region of Mars surface can contain the necessary information to infer the other features in the bodies of the solar system. Eventually the briefing was put in a tape from the Enterprise Mission. Another interesting thing, was about the so called flying saucer crash in the SW of Puerto Rico. He was doing some consulting job when a group of UFO "researchers" using military clothing and good equipment approached him for a briefing on the crash incident. He went to the area and after examination deducted that a missile crashed in the area (I have no way of knowing what kind of testing he did, even though I know he is very capable of a thorough analysis). In his opinion the UFO "researcher" group is "just a group of well intentioned, equipped and naive crackpots used to discredit and disinform." Later, via a former colleague, he was able to identify a man who shot a video of the incident in which it can be seen, an apparent UFO followed by aircraft, which shot a missile. The UFO responded deviating the missile to the ground. Note from the editor: This information has not been corroborated and represent only the outcome of an interview with the former NASA employee, which I know for years. Francisco Lopez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 2 Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 05:44:00 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 09:19:11 -0500 Subject: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c >> Jerry... >> Unfortunately John Kep's ideas are not thought of as "half-baked" >> by the average "religious" person in this country. I can't speak >> for the rest of the world, but in this country, the primary >> explaination for "UFOs" and their "alien" occupants is indeed >> "demonic." Remember, a couple of months ago when "Pat Robertson" >> came out on his 700 Club and announced that UFOS were Demonic in >> nature and anyone who professed to Investigate them or believe in >> them were guilty of blasphamy and should be stoned to death? >> Well, unfortunately, this man speaks with the same tongue as the >> orthodox religionist. >> Now, I am not by any means saying ALL religions and their >> followers profess this doctrine, but many do. Having a background >> in the Baptist religion, I know how many of the people I work and >> associate with feel about UFOs. >> Just thought I would add to the conversation, Jerry. >> Remember, not everyone believes the scientific doctrine. > >> REgards, Mike >Mike, >You make a good point. In fact, fundamentalist >Christian writers on UFOs often cite Keel's work, >and he gets quoted not infrequently in such >literature. Of course such writers ignore Keel's >further assertion that God is just another ultra- >terrestrial. >I have no quarrel with anybody's religious beliefs >so long as I'm not being compelled to agree with >them. Of course Keel is not propounding religious >doctrine but offering what is supposed to be a >serious hypothesis about the nature of anomalous >and paranormal phenomena. In that secular >context his ideas are profoundly irrational and >deeply paranoid. >Jerry Clark Jerry, Have you ever experienced any type of "paranormal" event? I am not trying to throw cold water on our conversation, but, I must in all honesty, say that I have had numerous experiences with the paranormal, for want of a better word. Out of Body Experiences, precognition, divinations, etc. I wish to say, that most of these experiences were spontaneous. As I began to study them, I found it was possible to develop these "unused" abilities. Like any other talent, or ability, they must be practiced in a structured format to learn control. Therefore, Jerry, I know that such things are possible. REgards, Mike
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 2 Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 05:46:29 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 09:21:15 -0500 Subject: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c >> Unfortunately John Kep's ideas are not thought of as "half-baked" >> by the average "religious" person in this country. I can't speak >> for the rest of the world, but in this country, the primary >> explaination for "UFOs" and their "alien" occupants is indeed >> "demonic." Remember, a couple of months ago when "Pat Robertson" >> came out on his 700 Club and announced that UFOS were Demonic in >> nature and anyone who professed to Investigate them or believe in >> them were guilty of blasphamy and should be stoned to death? >> Well, unfortunately, this man speaks with the same tongue as the >> orthodox religionist. >> Now, I am not by any means saying ALL religions and their >> followers profess this doctrine, but many do. Having a background >> in the Baptist religion, I know how many of the people I work and >> associate with feel about UFOs. >> Just thought I would add to the conversation, Jerry. >> Remember, not everyone believes the scientific doctrine. >> REgards, Mike >I might also add that those who have experienced some of the >things John Keel talks about and have seen such things as >"phantom" UFOs have a lot more respect for Keel's theories than >some of the "half-baked" theories some of the so-called UFO >scientists put out. >There's more to life than science can presently explain. >John K. Hi John. Yes, I agree. I have just finished telling Jerry that I personally have experienced what we would call, for want of a better word, Paranormal events. REgards, Mike
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 2 Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:16:16 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 09:33:33 -0500 Subject: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >Subject: re: UFO UpDate: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c >Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:51:56 -0800 >However a significant portion of abduction and fringe cases, >usually adopted by PNH adherents or UFO skeptics, do indeed >violate physics as we know it, not to mention biology and a few >other areas. Mark, Your key phrase is "as we know it". Much of what we do in our everyday lives today violates the laws of science as they were known in the not-too-distant past. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 2 Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 05:12:57 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 09:42:18 -0500 Subject: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s David M. Jacobs, Ph. D., Associate Professor of History, Temple University and author of _Secret Life_ has acknowledged on at least two occasions that there is an intimate connection between the Alien Abduction Experience and the Out-of-Body Experience: Part of these anomalous memories and dreams might be the unaware abductees' knowledge that they have had Out of Body Experiences. It is common for abductees to feel that they in some way left their body, usually during the night in bed. When they floated out of bed they were often accompanied by someone who they interpret as being a deceased relative or an angel. A few unaware abductees claim that they have not only had Out of Body Experiences but that they have experienced Astral Travel as well. They know that they have in some mysterious way experienced a strange displacement in location.... The only way that they can reconcile what has happened to them is through the only available explanation --- astral travel, no matter how ill-defined that might be. [Jacobs, David M. (1988). Post-Abduction Syndrome. MUFON 1988 International UFO Symposium Proceedings. Seguin, TX: MUFON Inc., p. 91-2.] A few years later Dr. Jacobs is more explicit about the connection between OBEs and AAEs: It is common for abductees to refer to out-of-body experiences that they had or, more commonly, that they succeeded in 'preventing' at what was the beginning of an abduction. They sometimes remember that they felt themselves floating out of bed but then 'fought it' and were able to lower themselves back onto the bed and abort the experience. When these memories have been examined, they have turned out to be a combination of the first few seconds and the last few seconds of an abduction. [Jacobs, David M. (1992). Secret Life: Firsthand Documented Accounts of UFO Abductions. New York: Simon & Schuster (Fireside). p. 50.] In other words, the typical abduction experience occurs in between the start and finish of a typical OBE. It would seem, then, that the alien abduction theme would be the content that is framed by the OBE process. However, Dr. Jacobs claims that abductees usually abandon such beliefs (ie the awareness that they experienced Out-of-Body Travel) when they become aware of what *really* happened to them. Thus: Knowledge of the abductions finally gives them the answers they were seeking and the majority of them let go of previously held belief structures that were never fully satisfactory. [Jacobs, David M. (1988). Post-Abduction Syndrome. MUFON 1988 International UFO Symposium Proceedings. Seguin, TX: MUFON Inc., p. 99.] It is unclear how Dr. Jacobs has decided that the rejection of one's own memories of Out-of-Body Experiencing represents progress when his research technique consists of using of hypnosis to recover buried memories. Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com> Trionic Research Institute http://www.trionica.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 2 Fwd: Mystery From: Ktperehwon@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:08:19 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 15:02:12 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Mystery My literary agent sent this to me this morning. Case closed! --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Mystery Date: 97-12-01 22:00:04 EST From: Cherry8486 To: Ktperehwon,PHN@netspace.net.au Question: If toast always lands butter side down and cat's always land on their feet, what happens when you strap toast to the back of a cat? Answer: Even if you are too lazy to do the experiment yourself you should be able to deduce the obvious result. The laws of butterology demand that the butter must hit the ground, and the equally strict laws of feline aerodynamics demand that the cat cannot land on its back. If the combined construct were to land, nature would have no way to resolve this paradox. Therefore it simply does not fall. That's right! You have discovered the secret of antigravity! A buttered cat will, when released, quickly move to a height where the forces of cat-twisting and butter repulsion are in equilibrium. This equilibrium point can be modified by scraping off some of the butter - providing lift - or removing some of the cat's limbs, allowing descent. Most of the civilized species of the Universe already use this principle to drive their ships within planetary systems. The loud humming heard by most sighters of UFOs is, in fact, the purring of several hundred cats. The one obvious danger, of course, arises if the cats manage to eat the bread off their backs. In this case they will instantly plummet. Naturally the cats will land on their feet but this generally doesn't do them much good, since right after they make their landing several tons of red-hot starship and irritated aliens crash on top of them. The mystery of Roswell has been solved. That's what's in the hanger.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 2 Re: UFO Database interest From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 10:38:53 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 15:07:44 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Database interest > Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:50:32 -0600 > To: updates@globalserve.net > From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> > Subject: UFO Database interest > I posted an article in response to another recently regarding a > universal UFO report database. I got many responses. One in > particular, shows that, with some added help from those out there > in various areas, we can achieve this. Please read the e-mail > below, and if interested respond to: jhenry@wavefront.com (This > includes also being a source of database data.) If we can cover > all the bases, we can have one up and running very soon. Any help > setting this up is appreciated and will be open for all to use > (free). > Joel Henry > Minnesota MUFON <snip> I am very interested in catalogues, indices, and databases. There are several large databases: The UFOCAT at CUFOS has well over 100,000 entries. The database is not currently available. You can get reports. Contact: CUFOS, 2457 WEst Patterson Avenue, Chicago, IL 60659 http://www.cufos.org/ Larry Hatch's *U* database (0ver 16,000 selected reports with mapping capabilities.) (Available from Hatch Software, 142 Jeter Street, Redwood City, CA 94062-1957) I personally like this database because it is self-contained and you are not stuck with Larry's selections, you can delete, add, or edit entries. A Demo is available at: http://www.iufog.org/project1947/new.htm The UFO Filter Center's Regional Database is large database centering on the Mid West. Francis Ridge has been at this for years. Paul Ferrughelli has a National Database and publishes yearly reports. Chris Rowkowski does the same for Canada. MUFON also has started on a research database. Many people have there own regional databases or specialized catalogues, such as Victor Kean's "Flying Triangle Project." I recently made contact with a researcher in England who is working on a worldwide database. When he pulled his 1947 entries for the UK out, I was pleasantly surprised to see they were completely new to me. The whole thrust of Project 1947 is to collect a very large database and look for patterns on big scale. (Someone's CE1 maybe somebody's NL.) Nothing original here. It was Ruppelt's idea. He lost interest because he got too much data! Problems immediately crop up. The main one being GIGO, and how do you prevent it. Database design can go on so long that interest in the project is lost. Don Johnson told me that the UFOCAT had several periods in which certain data--CE for example--became the focus. For certain periods there is a weighting for CE cases. I have previously discussed the problems with the USAF Special Report #14. Careful design and a good "gatekeeper" in the beginning can overcome a lot of problems later on. -- Jan Aldrich Project 1947 http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 2 Re: UFO Database interest From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:53:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 17:36:00 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Database interest >Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 05:21:08 +0100 (MET) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: UFO Database interest >>Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:50:32 -0600 >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> >>Subject: UFO Database interest >>From: "Duffy, Robin" <rduffy@pulaski.net> >>To: "'jhenry@wavefront.com'" <jhenry@wavefront.com> >>Subject: UFO Database >>Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:21:34 -0500 >>Mr. Henry: >> I read with interest your post on creating a comprehensive UFO >>database with filtering capability, etc. I believe I can take your idea >>one step farther and offer some assistance. Please allow me to explain. Anyone interested in a very useful database, searchable, should get the program from Larry Hatch. He has over 16,000 sightings I believe, in an amazing software package that includes creating flat or "spherical" maps of the world with sighting locations showm plus several different statistical packages. This is an expandable data base.... you can add sightings from your own file. It has to be seen to be believed!! Larry Hatch Software 142 Jeter St. Redwood City, CA 94025-1957 415-366-4472
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 2 Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 11:18:24 PST Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 17:39:25 -0500 Subject: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 05:46:29 -0600 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > >> Unfortunately John Kep's ideas are not thought of as "half-baked" > >> by the average "religious" person in this country. I can't speak > >> for the rest of the world, but in this country, the primary > >> explaination for "UFOs" and their "alien" occupants is indeed > >> "demonic." Remember, a couple of months ago when "Pat Robertson" > >> came out on his 700 Club and announced that UFOS were Demonic in > >> nature and anyone who professed to Investigate them or believe in > >> them were guilty of blasphamy and should be stoned to death? > >> Well, unfortunately, this man speaks with the same tongue as the > >> orthodox religionist. > >> Now, I am not by any means saying ALL religions and their > >> followers profess this doctrine, but many do. Having a background > >> in the Baptist religion, I know how many of the people I work and > >> associate with feel about UFOs. > >> Just thought I would add to the conversation, Jerry. > >> Remember, not everyone believes the scientific doctrine. > >> REgards, Mike > >I might also add that those who have experienced some of the > >things John Keel talks about and have seen such things as > >"phantom" UFOs have a lot more respect for Keel's theories than > >some of the "half-baked" theories some of the so-called UFO > >scientists put out. > >There's more to life than science can presently explain. > >John K. > Hi John. > Yes, I agree. > I have just finished telling Jerry that I personally have > experienced what we would call, for want of a better word, > Paranormal events. > REgards, Mike Hi, everybody, Either I did not make myself clear, or the whole ground of the discussion has shifted inexplicably. Let me restate my point: The issue is not whether there are unexplained, anomalous, or arguably paranormal events and experiences in the world. Few on this list would dispute that. (Probably just about everybody has had at least one weird incident in his or her life. I have had one or two myself.) The issue is whether Keel's "theories" -- one hesitates to use such a respectable noun to characterize what are in reality wild, even paranoid, guesses -- address them in any useful or coherent way. In my view, they do not. In mild exasperation, Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 2 Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c From: Steve Neeley <stneeley@mail.bright.net> Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:20:59 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 17:41:49 -0500 Subject: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c >Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 05:46:29 -0600 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > > >>> Unfortunately John Kep's ideas are not thought of as "half-baked" >>> by the average "religious" person in this country. I can't speak >>> for the rest of the world, but in this country, the primary >>> explaination for "UFOs" and their "alien" occupants is indeed >>> "demonic." List: Belief has nothing to do with the reality of a UFO sighting. You either saw something unidentified or you didn`t. This is not a religious theory. The powers that be need religious voodoo claptrap to keep their workers in line so they can keep producing revenue. UFOs are not a new religion. Steve Steve Neeley Ohio Regional Director Skywatch International http://www.wic.net/colonel/ufopage.html Hardin County Ohio Skywatch & Sighter Support http://www.geocities.com/soho/5782 stneeley@bright.net MIRC---Dalnet channel /join #ufo
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 2 Theresa Carlson's Autopsy Image Report From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 10:21:56 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 18:03:58 -0500 Subject: Theresa Carlson's Autopsy Image Report Hello Fellow Researcher / Enthusiast, You can find the most compelling report ever released on the Alien Autopsy Footage on the UFO Report Web Site. More information will be forthcoming, however, we think you will find this information very suggestive. Please go to: http://www.uforeport.com/shadow.html Input would be appreciated. We at UFO Report would like to thank T. Carlson and her supports for this amazing piece of research work. Thank you, Mark L. Center http://www.uforeport.com PS: Please stay tuned to our web site for another breaking story regarding the Alien Autopsy Footage over the coming weeks.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 2 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:41:16 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 19:30:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 05:12:57 -0500 >To: updates@globalserve.net >From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com> >Subject: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >David M. Jacobs, Ph. D., Associate Professor of History, Temple >University and author of _Secret Life_ has acknowledged on at >least two occasions that there is an intimate connection between >the Alien Abduction Experience and the Out-of-Body Experience: Hello Errol, Joe, David, All, Please consider this, just two cents from 'wonnadem!' <G> Joe intended for David to respond to this and I hope he does, but as one of the "subjects" (abductee) of these questions I'd just like to throw my two cents in before the discussion takes off in earnest. Until about six years ago I had rationalized my lifetime of unexplained experiences and memories as OOBE's (out of body exp's) vivid nightmares, and several unexplained objects (UFO sightings) I had seen in the sky (throughout my life - beginning in childhood) that simply didn't fit in with anything -I- knew of. It was the odd experiences and memories that I could never explain or pigeonhole that drove me to learn about and practice eastern philosophy, (Tibetan Yoga specifically) meditation, (I meditated daily for seventeen years) and to attend an Interfaith Seminary. I had been on a lifelong search for answers to the perplexing set of memories that I have had to live with. Not being at all familiar with "ufology" or the details of alien abduction I had no way to identify or diagnose my own symptoms. I simply remembered flying out of my window at night up towards the sky and then flying back in at dawn (almost a la Peter Pan with arms outstretched and loving the energy of flying) and then floating over my bed for a moment and gently dropping into it, rolling over and going to sleep. All of my adult life I had explained those very clear recollections to myself as OOBEs. To my knowledge and way of thinking it was the only possible/plausable explanation. Same for the memory of waking up (I was a ten years old) to find myself floating feet first (in a prone position) about three or four feet above the floor, thru my living room. I remember opening my eyes, absorbing what was going on, panicing, and falling back to sleep in mid journey! I figured I musta been dreaming, or having one of these OBEs. After all, what else could it possibly be. Well six years ago I pick up a copy of "Missing Time" (which I have also had!) and begin to read the accounts of what the abductees remember and report as having happened to them. For three nights I had attempted to read that book before going to sleep. Each time after reading three or four pages I would develop the most painful splitting headache. I'd have to put the book down, turn off the lights, and close my eyes in order to allow the pain to subside. Which it would do after ten or fifteen minutes. On the third night, just as this blasted headache is about to descend on me again I experienced one of the most acute shocks I have ever had. It suddenly dawned on me that the abductee in the book was describing word for word something that I had experienced and had categorized -filed away- as a "nightmare!" I also realized that I had not retained a single word of anything I had read on the prior evenings. I went back to the beginning and almost immediately the identification with the details of the accounts of the abductees began. It was a turning point in my life. I can honestly say that it changed not only the direction of my life but myself awareness, my self-consciousness in a very fundamental and profound way. It was the first time in my life I had heard my deepest held secrets and memories clothed in the words of another. I wonder if you can appreciate what a profound and world shattering experience that is. I am not the same person I was then. I live in a different world, a different universe now. It's a much larger place where things that I thought were impossible are now common place. "I" (the me I was before I made the connection) died. From the million shattered pieces of my world a new me emerged. No, I'm sorry but OOBEs don't explain what I recall. You see, as clearly as I recall exiting and entering my window as a child I also recall that my bed was -always empty- as I entered my room and approached it. I believe that in the case of OOBE's the subject can see their body on the bed or wherever. I didn't "see" my body because I was -in it- at the time. I was not having OBE's I was having OHEs, "Out Of House Experiences! <G>" My parents once had the police out looking for me during what is one of two missing time episodes I have had. I was no-where to be found for three whole days! All I recalled was leaving my house on a Friday nite to join my buddies for a night out, and then the next thing I recall I was flat on my back in a 'park' somewhere staring up at three all white clowns! They scared the hell out of me, so I closed my eyes and when I opened them again they were gone. I was left completely disoriented and confused. To this day my father thinks I was "catting out" with some young lady. I have no conscious recollection of that three day period (other that being face to face with what I thought were three clowns in whiteface) But,...I was -physically gone- I was nowhere to be found by friends family or authorities! That does not 'fit into' what is known as an OBE. I am convinced (I have my set of reasons) that what is happening to us is very real and physical. It's not an OBE or anything of a metaphysical nature, although it does have components that mimic what we in our limited understanding have categorized as paraphysical manifestations. Nope, I think these guys are blood and bone physical. I think their machines are made of some kind of metal, and I think that they are taking certain people out of their homes and doing whatever it is they do to them with complete impunity. As an abductee I may have had a few OBEs along the way but my recollections fit the pattern that is associated with alien intervention/abduction, not the one described by mystics. We (my wife and children too) have marks on our bodies that are the sequelae of these abduction episodes. Unless we're all manifesting 'stigmata' something real and physical is happening. Carry on gents. John Velez, Webmaster AIC/Intruders Foundation Online/Wonnadem
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 2 NASA Looks Toward Visionary Interstellar Travel From: NASANews@hq.nasa.gov Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:56:43 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 19:45:05 -0500 Subject: NASA Looks Toward Visionary Interstellar Travel David M. DeFelice Lewis Research Center, Cleveland, OH Dec. 2, 1997 (Phone: 216/433-6186) RELEASE I97-11 NASA LOOKS TOWARD VISIONARY INTERSTELLAR TRAVEL Many people wonder when we will be able to travel to distant solar systems as easily as envisioned in science fiction. Discover NASA's perspective on the prospects that exist today for achieving such far-future visions via a new World Wide Web site called, "Warp Drive, When?" Explore the site at: http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/warp.htm This web site explains the challenges of interstellar travel, the prospects and limitations of existing propulsion ideas, and the prospects emerging from science that may one day provide the breakthroughs needed to enable practical interstellar voyages. Analogies to familiar science fiction are used to simplify concepts such as "warp drive." For a look at what NASA is doing to achieve such breakthroughs, another web site is available about the new NASA Breakthrough Propulsion Physics program: http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/ This modest program is taking a step-by-step approach toward discovering the ultimate breakthroughs needed to revolutionize space travel and enable human journeys to other star systems - credible progress toward incredible possibilities. This program represents the combined efforts of individuals from various NASA centers, other government labs, universities and industry. - end -
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 2 Re: UFO Database interest From: "Serge Salvaille" <sergesa@connectmmic.net> Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 15:18:18 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 19:44:18 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Database interest >Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:50:32 -0600 >To: updates@globalserve.net >From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> >Subject: UFO Database interest Joel, I program database applications (in Access 97). Database concepts are like cooking: you must first know what you want to eat. Hamburgers and boeuf bourguignon command different ingredients. The first problem to solve is not what information (ingredients) you want to PUT INTO the database (dish), but what kind information (meal) you plan to RETRIEVE (eat). In databases what you want to retrieve dictates the entire project. Most of the time, even the end users won't know precisely what they want. Sure they have a general idea, but most of the time the guy/lady (team, analyst, programmer, whatever) will have to study the situation with the users. It is a team process (and not an easy one, believe me!). Concerning the UFO database, time and geographical correlations are easily implemented, but we also want observed sizes, along with estimated sizes, estimated speeds, radar correlated data, single, multiple witness observations, precise longitude and latitude coordinates, occupants, physical traces, physical effects, biological effects, atmospheric pressure, multiple UFOs, F16 data <g>, education of witnesses, investigators, militaries, pilots, scientists, bogus explanations <g>, photographic evidence... Will we reach the hundred ? Once we know what is needed, we have to sit down and study the feasability of the project, then it's practicability... propose a solution, discuss it, propose another one, rediscuss it... The fun part is trying to sort of debunk yourself. Like... "OK, now, who's gonna put the data into the database ? We need credible data from credible people". Of course, you exclude Mendoza and Devereux for the sake of objectivity <hehe>, but where will the data come from? And then, well one day, you jump into the volcano and start programming. After a while you look around and say "Hey, this thing works ok"... And you think about diffusing it: freeware, of course.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 Re: Fwd: Mystery From: Ktperehwon@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:24:17 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 00:11:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Fwd: Mystery Concerning bread-butter-feline UFO propulsion systems and related matters: -- Bruce Maccabee provides this important technical note: Jelly significantly enhances lift. (Question, Bruce: Does the lift enhancement vary among types of jelly?) -- A source who shall remain anonymous wonders if the presence of cats aboard UFOs suggests the Greys/Grays are pussies. -- The above musing suggests another hint of The Truth: In commenting on a parallel (?) consideration, none other than the illustrious Benjamin Franklin noted, "All cats are gray in the dark."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:19:34 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 00:23:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony Regarding... >Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 00:33:55 -0500 >From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony Bruce, Your recent comments noted, this is a reply which doesn't require any specific cross-references. As we now know, in his radio interview, Arnold stated: "I was approximately 25 to 28 miles from Mt. Rainier, I climbed back up to 9200 feet and I noticed to the left of me a chain which looked to me like the tail of a Chinese kite, kind of weaving and going at a terrific speed across the face of Mt. Rainier. I, at first, thought they were geese because it flew like geese, but it was going so fast that I immediately changed my mind and decided it was a bunch of new jet planes in formation". According to this testimony, when Arnold first notices the puzzling objects, they are already passing the face of Mount Ranier, apparently to Arnold's left as he was flying approximately 160 degrees south. Arnold at first recognises these may be geese, because they flew like geese, but discounts this as the objects seem to be travelling much too fast. He immediately changes his mind and decides they must be jet planes, especially as they are flying in formation. There's no evidence he considered any other possibilities. Arnold continues: "Well, as the plane come to the edge of Mt. Rainier flying at about 160 degrees south, I thought I would clock them because it was such a clear day, and I didn't know where their destination was, but due to the fact that I had Mt. Saint Helens and Mt. Adams to clock them by, I just thought I'd see just how fast they were going, since among pilots we argue about speed so much. And, they seemed to flip and flash in the sun, just like a mirror, and, in fact, I happened to be in an angle from the sun that seemed to hit the tops of these peculiar looking things in such a way that it almost blinded you when you looked at them through your plexiglass windshield". He's flying "at about 160 degrees south" and in his Blue Book report claims, "I observed a chain of nine peculiar looking aircraft flying from north to south at approximately 9,500 ft elevation and going, seemingly, in a definite direction of about 170 degrees". This places Arnold and the objects on an almost parallel course. Arnold also says he has, "Mt. Saint Helens and Mt. Adams to clock them by", however, the reference to Mt. Saint Helens, to the south and Arnold's right, seems odd if the objects are to Arnold's left. Does it imply that at this point, Arnold still hasn't passed Mt. Saint Helens on his right hand side? As we were theorising, supposing the objects were not jet planes, but smaller and much closer to Arnold than he realised. As they crossed his path, the objects would move away from Arnold. He should of course at first be moving towards them and if he is flying faster than the objects, they would appear larger as he approached. How would Arnold have perceived and quantified this; is it possible that the objects moved away so rapidly that he didn't appreciate the brief change in perception. A key factor would be the relative air speeds. How fast was Kenneth Arnold travelling at this time? Assuming the objects in echelon were, just conceivably, a formation of American White Pelicans (AWP), how fast might they have been travelling? I have tried to clarify this question and perhaps with some success. The ideal person to offer an informed opinion would be a pilot who has encountered pelicans in flight and I came across a glider pilot who, no pun intended, "fitted the bill". He has been accompanied in flight by a flock of pelicans and apparently this has happened to other glider pilots he's spoken to, the birds seemingly quite happy to accept the glider as a "bigger brother". He states, "The birds I was soaring with were at about 3000 - 4000 feet MSL. We were flying in a continuous band of lift, so we were continually climbing. I have seen pelicans at higher altitudes when the lift is really good (maybe 6000 feet MSL)". "The glider I was flying has a 38 mph stall speed... as a matter of fact, I was flying at 52 mph between thermals, and these birds were staying with me". So, it seems whilst still not quite supersonic, pelicans are no slouches and under ideal flying conditions, could show a surprising turn of wing. From the "perfect" conditions noted by Kenneth Arnold, I'm not aware of any reason why such ideal flying conditions couldn't also have existed that day. How far away might a formation of pelicans be visible? Our glider pilot states: "Visibility depends on several factors. The one having the most effect of course is how much "haze" or other particulate matter is in the air (i.e. smog, smoke). At low altitudes, visibility is lowered because of this. However, at higher altitudes, something like the white body of a pelican contrasts nicely with the blue sky. Myself, (a pilot with average eyesight) I can distinguish the basic shape (a body with wings) of these pelicans from about 4 miles when flying above the haze. From 4 to maybe 6 miles they become small dots. Beyond that, I'd say they would probably not be distinguishable other than some sort of relative motion that may catch your eye". Much now depends on Arnold's air speed - do we know what this was claimed to be? Overall, I would be interested in your general observations, based on the more accurate data now available. Although I can see a situation where "the pelican brief" might now be substantiated as a realistic possibility, I obviously wouldn't wish to "make it fit", if it clearly doesn't. As I said at the outset, the compelling evidence is how closely Arnold's description of the flight characteristics resembles a formation of AWPs. Compelling doesn't mean conclusive. Also, the evidence isn't mine, I'm merely highlighting some observations and relevant opinions and how they might relate to the Arnold case. Some of the information referenced has been obtained from discussions on birdwatching mailing lists and forums elsewhere and I see no problem in mentioning names when that applies. Where comments are from personal correspondence, I won't disclose those sources (although I'm happy to confirm them privately if you wish), as I can't be sure those sourced quotes, which are _not_ opinions on the Arnold case, won't appear outwith this forum either misrepresented or misinterpreted. That clarified, a further contribution from private correspondence, which let's agree to call noteworthy rather than compelling. From an active member of one of Canada's foremost AWP monitoring and conservation projects: "Everything in Arnold's description that you quoted points to the strong possibility he saw a flock of AWPs... the formation, the allusion to the tail of a Chinese kite, etc. "I have been baffled by optical illusions of distance when these birds are against a backdrop (hills)". What remains debatable is Arnold's perception of relative distance and airspeed. If the objects which Kenneth Arnold witnessed were indeed a formation of alien spaceships flying in echelon, perhaps we might expect to find at least one similar sighting report during the past fifty years. Are there any comparative reports? James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 Another Mail Server Fries From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 09:19:14 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 09:19:14 -0500 Subject: Another Mail Server Fries Seems to happen to most of us these days. We spend months flailing around the neighbourhood looking for a reliable server, find one, set up our software and hope like hell that they don't start advertising. They do and rapidly become over-subscribed as friends spread the word. Collective tech support/client hairlines start withdrawing with each succeeding mail-server crash. List operators start sensing 'the next one', as in-comings dwindle and the password-server starts insisting you have no rights on _its_ system. Isn't it odd that out-going mail servers _never_ crash? Now, where's that list of Double-T3 I/O and mirrored, servers..... I've learned how to sum it all up with one word. ARGH!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:59:40 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 12:47:10 -0500 Subject: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, on 12/2/97 9:33 AM: > Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:16:16 -0500 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> > >Subject: re: UFO UpDate: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > >Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:51:56 -0800 > >However a significant portion of abduction and fringe cases, > >usually adopted by PNH adherents or UFO skeptics, do indeed > >violate physics as we know it, not to mention biology and a few > >other areas. > Your key phrase is "as we know it". Much of what we do in > our everyday lives today violates the laws of science as they > were known in the not-too-distant past. Actually, Bob, the "laws" of science are pretty well constrained, and there are relatively few of them, most of which have been around for a very long time. The law of gravity The law of conservation of energy The laws of inertia etc. To the best of my knowledge, nothing man does now violates these laws, and, for that matter, nothing in the vast majority of UFO reports represents an unambiguous violation of these laws. From our own experience, for instance, we know that while aircraft fly (via engineering), they do not violate the laws of gravity, inertia, etc. UFOs, likewise, do fly, but they provide every indication of producing (and thus consuming) energy while they do so. I would cite the various luminious and radiation effects, not to mention the evidence of object weight and solidity, and especially those cases which signal the presence of fields of force around UFOs (windshield breakages, projectile deflections, etc). These suggest that, while UFOs make use of an engineering we don't have any real idea of how to accomplish, they still must oppose gravity and inertia with some form of thrust, and they are solid and material objects which do not "dematerialize" into energy (although even that would not necessarily be a violation of physics, conservation of mass being one of the few physical laws which fell with the advent of e=mc^2). There's no question that as our engineering progresses that we can accomplish some marvellous things. And certainly there is some room for the acceptance of unusual effect UFO cases given that viewpoint. However cases of transparent objects, cases of structured metal objects only a few inches in diameter entering homes and disgorging tiny occupants, cases of UFOs only seen by certain people when other witnesses are present and looking in the same direction, abductions where other witnesses present have not seen any such event, objects which enter the ground, etc, need to be examined much more critically than the normal run of UFO reports, and must be carefully weighted (and, I think, at this point, weighted more lightly) relative to the normal run of UFO reports. And reports of beings without UFOs, apparitions, poltergeists, etc., I think really belong in their own fields of study, not lumped in with UFOs. ------ Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at http://www.geocities.com/~mcashman - Original digital art, writing, and UFO research - Author of SF novels available at... http://www.infohaus.com/access/by-seller/The_Temporal_Doorway_Storefront ------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 Alien Marketing Says: U.S. Government May Accuse... From: RSchatte@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:33:44 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 12:58:02 -0500 Subject: Alien Marketing Says: U.S. Government May Accuse... --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Alien Marketing Says: U.S. Government May Accuse... Date: 97-12-03 05:16:30 EST From: AOL News Alien Marketing Says: U.S. Government May Accuse Marketing Company Of Withholding Proof Of Life On Other Planets 'It's Just A Tongue-In-Cheek Alien Novelty Gift, So What's All The Fuss About?' Asks Company President MIAMI, Dec. 2 /PRNewswire/ -- A Miami-based marketing firm says the United States government may soon publicly accuse it of withholding evidence as to the existence of life on other planets, according to a top Pentagon official who agreed to comment on the condition of anonymity. Alien Marketing, the Miami company that produces a novelty item called the Home Alien Abduction Verification Kit which purportedly provides proof of alien abductions, has been under government surveillance since it began marketing its Alien Abduction Kit back in January, the Pentagon official said. "The kit has attracted worldwide publicity and the government thinks there's more to it than meets the eye." Sporting all the earmarks of X-Files melodrama, with some Beverly Hillbillies thrown in, what started out as a tongue-in-cheek novelty product has become an issue of National Security with conspiratorial overtones, says Alien Marketing. "For crying out loud it's only a joke product," said a frustrated Bill Singletary, spokesman for Alien Marketing, manufacturer of the kit. "Now I hear the government's going to call us in for questioning. What are they going to ask us? If we're in collusion with E.T.? It's absurd. As a taxpayer I'm incensed." The kit, which sells for $24.95 provides consumers with photographic proof of their alien encounter, physical evidence, a newspaper article detailing the abduction and a certificate of authenticity from the National Alien Sighting Association (NASA) -- an acronym that's got its namesake government agency fuming. "If we get pulled in for questioning I will seriously consider becoming an alien resident of Canada," Singletary said. Alien Marketing is a multimedia company that specializes in niche marketing. For more information on the Home Alien Abduction Verification Kit conspiracy, call Bill Singletary at 305-460-3148. Interested parties can decide from themselves whether the kit poses a threat to National Security by going online at http://www.alien-abductions.com or calling 800-817-6691. CO: Alien Marketing ST: Florida IN: ENT SU: To edit your profile, go to keyword "aol://1722:NewsProfiles" NewsProfiles. For all of today's news, go to keyword "aol://1722:News".
The UFO UpDates Archive Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: "David M. Jacobs" <djacobs@thunder.ocis.temple.edu> Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 23:35:25 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:04:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 05:12:57 -0500 > To: updates@globalserve.net > From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com> > Subject: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > David M. Jacobs, Ph. D., Associate Professor of History, Temple > University and author of _Secret Life_ has acknowledged on at > least two occasions that there is an intimate connection between > the Alien Abduction Experience and the Out-of-Body Experience: > Part of these anomalous memories and dreams might be the unaware > abductees' knowledge that they have had Out of Body Experiences. > It is common for abductees to feel that they in some way left > their body, usually during the night in bed. When they floated > out of bed they were often accompanied by someone who they > interpret as being a deceased relative or an angel. A few unaware > abductees claim that they have not only had Out of Body > Experiences but that they have experienced Astral Travel as well. > They know that they have in some mysterious way experienced a > strange displacement in location.... The only way that they can > reconcile what has happened to them is through the only available > explanation --- astral travel, no matter how ill-defined that > might be. [Jacobs, David M. (1988). Post-Abduction Syndrome. > MUFON 1988 International UFO Symposium Proceedings. Seguin, > TX: MUFON Inc., p. 91-2.] > A few years later Dr. Jacobs is more explicit about the connection > between OBEs and AAEs: > It is common for abductees to refer to out-of-body experiences > that they had or, more commonly, that they succeeded in > 'preventing' at what was the beginning of an abduction. They > sometimes remember that they felt themselves floating out of bed > but then 'fought it' and were able to lower themselves back onto > the bed and abort the experience. When these memories have been > examined, they have turned out to be a combination of the first > few seconds and the last few seconds of an abduction. [Jacobs, > David M. (1992). Secret Life: Firsthand Documented Accounts of > UFO Abductions. New York: Simon & Schuster (Fireside). p. 50.] > In other words, the typical abduction experience occurs in > between the start and finish of a typical OBE. It would seem, > then, that the alien abduction theme would be the content that is > framed by the OBE process. > However, Dr. Jacobs claims that abductees usually abandon such > beliefs (ie the awareness that they experienced Out-of-Body > Travel) when they become aware of what *really* happened to them. > Thus: > Knowledge of the abductions finally gives them the answers they > were seeking and the majority of them let go of previously held > belief structures that were never fully satisfactory. [Jacobs, > David M. (1988). Post-Abduction Syndrome. MUFON 1988 > International UFO Symposium Proceedings. Seguin, TX: MUFON Inc., > p. 99.] > It is unclear how Dr. Jacobs has decided that the rejection of > one's own memories of Out-of-Body Experiencing represents > progress when his research technique consists of using of > hypnosis to recover buried memories. > Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com> > Trionic Research Institute > http://www.trionica.com To Joseph Polanik, Thank you for your query. Perhaps I can clarify my position a little for you. The society provides a menu of explanations for perceived unusual experiences. People claim to see ghosts or strangers, deceased relatives or friends who have come to tell them that "everything is all right," angels, devils, and other religious figures. The society allows them to have, among other things, out of body experiences, travels on the astral plane, and so forth. Actually, the list is fairly short when compared with some other countries. Abductees tend to have these "experiences" in much higher frequency than nonabductees. When investigated, these experiences tend to be fragments of distorted memories of abduction events. In relation to out of body experiences, I believe that there is is a neurological mechanism that causes the standard accounts. Typically, out of body experiences tend to take place in certain circumstances: deep meditation, profound stress caused by surgical or medical procedures, and trauma caused by accidents, (automobile and otherwise). Out of body experiences usually do not happen when a person is sitting at his couch with a can of beer in his hand watching David Letterman (I understand that there will always be exceptions to these examples.) Abductees tend to report having the unexpected or unwanted "out of body experiences." They interpret them as such because that is part of the menu of explanations that the society has allowed them. When carefully investigated by competent individuals, these "out of body experiences" tend not to be what the person at first thought they were. Furthermore, as I stated before, the abduction phenomenon causes people to forget what has happened to them. It is, however, an imperfect science. While most abductees forget, many, if not most of their abduction experiences, they tend to retain a residue of memory fragments, bits and pieces of memories, flashes of sequences, and even entire events. Some of the most common memories are of the first few seconds of the abduction and the last few seconds. During this time they might see figures standing by them ("deceased relatives," etc.) They might remember traveling through the air and seeing the roof of their house ("astral plane," etc.), or they might remember floating up off their couch and them coming back to their couch ("out of body experiences, etc"). Incidentally, some abductees remember spontaneously, and without hypnosis, that what they originally thought was an out of body experience was far more complicated. They suddenly remember going out of their house, into a UFO, lying on a table, etc.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:22:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:05:52 -0500 Subject: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c >Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:20:59 -0500 (EST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Steve Neeley <stneeley@mail.bright.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c >List: >Belief has nothing to do with the reality of a UFO sighting. >You either saw something unidentified or you didn`t. >This is not a religious theory. >The powers that be need religious voodoo claptrap to keep their >workers in line so they can keep producing revenue. >UFOs are not a new religion. >Steve Steve, This is a terribly naive post. Have you been to UFO conferences? If so, you certainly have seen those selling the new religion, complete with all the trappings. UFOs are not a religion to you, nor to me, but they are a religion to a large number of people. And I see those numbers growing. Rather than going into denial, probably it would be more constructive to try to do something about it. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 Re: UFO Database interest From: "R.Bull" <RAB@cadcentre.co.uk> [Rob Bull] Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 17:44:00 GMT Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:08:16 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Database interest >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: "Serge Salvaille" <sergesa@connectmmic.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: UFO Database interest >Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 15:18:18 -0500 >I program database applications (in Access 97). I don't have much experience of databases, and no experience of managing a database design and implementation project, but I'd have thought that any UFO database would need to be compiled GLOBALLY and so must use a GLOBALLY AVAILABLE database package - like Access 97. Hey, Bill Gates has WON - why try and swim against the current? BUFORA in the UK is in the process of transcribing decades worth of paper sighting reports into an Access d/b, a long and thankless task, but it works and is giving useful results. Rob Bull
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 Re: UFO Database interest From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 09:59:41 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:12:02 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Database interest >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: "Serge Salvaille" <sergesa@connectmmic.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: UFO Database interest >Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 15:18:18 -0500 >Joel, >I program database applications (in Access 97). >Database concepts are like cooking: you must first know what you >want to eat. Hamburgers and boeuf bourguignon command different >ingredients. The first problem to solve is not what information >(ingredients) you want to PUT INTO the database (dish), but what >kind information (meal) you plan to RETRIEVE (eat). In databases >what you want to retrieve dictates the entire project. >Most of the time, even the end users won't know precisely what >they want. Sure they have a general idea, but most of the time >the guy/lady (team, analyst, programmer, whatever) will have to >study the situation with the users. It is a team process (and >not an easy one, believe me!). We are looking at a combination of the obvious items and keyword searches. Once the reports are selected, then you can go one step further and filter/graph etc. correlated data by keywords (this will take some effort in the thesaurus dept. so similar keywords can be suggested and included where desired). >Concerning the UFO database, time and geographical correlations >are easily implemented, but we also want observed sizes, along >with estimated sizes, estimated speeds, radar correlated data, >single, multiple witness observations, precise longitude and >latitude coordinates, occupants, physical traces, physical >effects, biological effects, atmospheric pressure, multiple UFOs, >F16 data <g>, education of witnesses, investigators, militaries, >pilots, scientists, bogus explanations <g>, photographic >evidence... Will we reach the hundred ? I was thinking that we may need to develop a coding word to sort with for each given report. It would identify which subjects, keywords, filters, etc apply to it. A simple program to do this would be helpful. >Once we know what is needed, we have to sit down and study the >feasability of the project, then it's practicability... propose a >solution, discuss it, propose another one, rediscuss it... I was prepared for this. It is inevitable. >The fun part is trying to sort of debunk yourself. Like... "OK, >now, who's gonna put the data into the database ? We need >credible data from credible people". Of course, you exclude >Mendoza and Devereux for the sake of objectivity <hehe>, but >where will the data come from? Data will come from any source. MUFON, CUFOS, etc. even online submissions. But initial reports will need to be separated form investigation reports and checked first before inclusion (no automatic listings). >And then, well one day, you jump into the volcano and start >programming. >After a while you look around and say "Hey, this thing works >ok"... And you think about diffusing it: freeware, of course. The idea here is to have it accessible to anyone over the internet. If it is not feasable to do it "live", then results could be churned out and sent out via e-mail. We are still in the planning stages, so any helpful input you ma have is greatly appreciated. We want to avoid as many obvious pitfalls as we can from the start. Less time wasted. This is a long term project: Ultimate UFO Report Database (UUFORD), so I have no illusions that it will pop up like a dandilion in spring. Thanks. Joel Henry ***************************************************** Minnesota MUFON Webmaster Minnesota MUFON Web Page= http://www.wavefront.com/~jhenry/index.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 NASA Solar Powered Altitude Record to Be From: NASANews@hq.nasa.gov Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:45:03 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:14:52 -0500 Subject: NASA Solar Powered Altitude Record to Be Dwayne Brown Headquarters, Washington, DC December 3, 1997 (Phone: 202/358-1726) Fred Brown Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA (Phone: 805/258-2663) Eric Dunn Pacific Missile Range Facility, Kekaha, Kauai, Hawaii (Phone: 808/335-4560) NOTE TO EDITORS: N97-087 NASA SOLAR-POWERED ALTITUDE RECORD TO BE DEDICATED TO CHALLENGER ASTRONAUT NASA representatives will present a memorial plaque to dedicate the world altitude record (for a propeller-driven aircraft) to the memory of Col. Ellison S. Onizuka at a ceremony beginning at 3 p.m. EST on Dec. 10, 1997, at the U.S. Navy's Pacific Missile Range Facility, Barking Sands, Kauai. The record symbolizes reaching for the heavens and striving for excellence. The plaque will be presented to the Onizuka family and the Hawaiian community. Another plaque will be provided to the Onizuka Museum located on Kona. Onizuka, Hawaii's first astronaut, was killed in the Space Shuttle Challenger accident in January 1986. The record of 71,530 feet was set by the solar-powered Pathfinder on July 7, 1997. The remotely piloted Pathfinder is one of several aircraft in NASA's Environmental Research Aircraft and Sensor Technology program managed by NASA's Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA. Pathfinder is a research vehicle developed to explore the feasibility of flight at very high altitudes and for extreme duration. Once the basic feasibility is demonstrated for continuous day/night operations, then month-long science flights will be conducted for a variety of missions including environmental monitoring, atmospheric sampling for next generation high speed transports, hurricane surveillance, and telecommunications relays. The record flight marked a significant step on the path to maturation of these kinds of flight vehicles. Hawaii was chosen as an optimum location for testing the solar-powered Pathfinder due to high levels of solar irradiance, available airspace and radio frequency, and diversity of terrestrial and coastal ecosystems. Media wishing to cover the event should be at the Pacific Missile Range Facility by 2 p.m. EST. A media briefing will be held at 2:30 p.m. EST. For accreditation and more information contact Eric Dunn at 808/335-4560. -end-
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 Re: From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 22:11:06 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 19:08:29 -0500 Subject: Re: >> Hi John. >> Yes, I agree. >> I have just finished telling Jerry that I personally have >> experienced what we would call, for want of a better word, >> Paranormal events. >> REgards, Mike >Hi, everybody, >Either I did not make myself clear, or the whole >ground of the discussion has shifted inexplicably. >Let me restate my point: >The issue is not whether there are unexplained, anomalous, or >arguably paranormal events and experiences in the world. Few on >this list would dispute that. (Probably just about everybody has >had at least one weird incident in his or her life. I have had >one or two myself.) The issue is whether Keel's "theories" -- one >hesitates to use such a respectable noun to characterize what are >in reality wild, even paranoid, guesses -- address them in any >useful or coherent way. In my view, they do not. >In mild exasperation, >Jerry Clark Jerry, Since you are just describing your opinion of "Keel's theories," I will not comment further. I don't know him personally, so I cannot vouch for his claims. REgards, Mike
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 Re: Fwd: Mystery From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 01:45:37 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 19:12:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Fwd: Mystery >From: Ktperehwon@aol.com >Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:24:17 -0500 (EST) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: In re butterology/cat aerodynamics (UpDates: "Fwd: Mystery") >Concerning bread-butter-feline UFO propulsion systems and related >matters: >-- A source who shall remain anonymous wonders if the presence of >cats aboard UFOs suggests the Greys/Grays are pussies. Karl, If Greys/Grays are "pussies" how come we're the ones getting phuqued? <G> John Velez, Alien Spawn
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 'Rods' Shot by Professional Videographer From: edwards@amigo.net (TIM EDWARDS) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 23:52:59 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 19:11:31 -0500 Subject: 'Rods' Shot by Professional Videographer Notice how much these stills from video resemble the numerous people video taping using the solar filming techniques and other taping in other areas of the sky. Check it out at Jose Escamilla's web site at: http://www.roswellrods.com/int.html They are very amazing pictures videoed in a cave in Mexico at the same time base jumpers are free falling. There is also detailed descriptions of the sequences and more information on the mysterious rods. Tim Edwards
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 Synopsis of Nov 14 Northwest Sightings From: director@ufocenter.com, Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:29:48 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 19:18:43 -0500 Subject: Synopsis of Nov 14 Northwest Sightings Received via "alt.alien.visitors" December 3 at 06.41 local time: A lengthy synopsis of materials received by the National UFO Reporting Center concerning the dramatic sightings over Washington Nov. 14 has been posted on our web site at: http://www.UFOcenter.com Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 20:18:38 -0800 From: National UFO Reporting Center <director@ufocenter.com> Subject: Synopsis of Nov 14 Northwest Sightings Message-ID: <3484DD9E.723FBBB0@ufocenter.com> Mime-Version: 1.0
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 ACC - Additional Update From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 19:16:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 19:16:38 -0500 Subject: ACC - Additional Update From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) To: updates@globalserve.net Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:15:28 +0200 Subject: ACC: Additional Update American Computer Company has just issued an additional update on its Roswell story. The URL is: http://www.american-computer.com/thanksgiving.htm You may have some of the information already, but do read the publication through! 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 Invention May Do For Sound What Laser Did For Light From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:54:08 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 19:41:54 -0500 Subject: Invention May Do For Sound What Laser Did For Light Found at: http://cnn.com/TECH/9712/02/sound.wave.energy/ The links are in brackets. Stig ******* Invention may do for sound what laser did for light Lucas uses containers of various shapes to eliminate shock waves =BF=BF 'It's doing something ... completely impossible' December 2, 1997 Web posted at: 9:52 p.m. EST (0252 GMT) >From Correspondent Jim Hill SAN DIEGO (CNN) -- A researcher says he has done something "completely impossible" by harnessing the power of sound, and that eventually it will be available in everything from home appliances to industrial compressors. Tim Lucas says he made a radical discovery while working at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico that enables him to create more energy through sound waves than was ever thought possible. "It's not an incremental improvement in an existing technology," Lucas says, "it's suddenly doing something which before was completely impossible." (CNN's Jim Hill reports) (vxtreme video) Scientists have long known that sound is composed of pulsing waves of energy, but it was considered useless as a power source because at high levels sound waves distort into shock waves. An example is the way sound distorts on a stereo or radio speakers when turned up too loud. But Lucas discovered that by sending sound waves through empty containers of various shapes, the shock waves were eliminated. Clean electric power generators? "Once you've done that," he says, "you can add all the energy, create all the pressure, and deliver all the power that you want." Lucas calls his invention Resonant Macrosonic Synthesis -- RMS. He has used it to power such things as a gas compressor, but believes there is so much potential that he compares what he has done with sound to what the laser has done with light. His company, Macrosonix, is working on sound wave compressors which might one day do everything from cool refrigerators and air conditioners in the home to running compressors in factories and on construction sites. The beauty of a sound-wave compressor is that it would do what a compressor does, but without the moving parts required in conventional piston technology. Mechanical engineering professor Mark Hamilton, who has followed Lucas' work, says, "I don't think the idea struck people that you could use sound waves to do, say, pumping that could be used on a commercial scale. And I think that was the innovative part of the idea here." Macrosonix researchers say they also hope to use sound to create clean electric power generators, replacing any number of machines with the technology of an empty cavity. Related site: Note: Pages will open in a new browser window (Los Alamos National Laboratory) External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive. Watch these shows on CNN for more sci-tech stories: CNN Computer Connection | Future Watch | Science & Technology Week Sound off on our message boards You said it... =A9 1997 Cable News Network, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 Shulman On 'Sightings' December 3 From: eotl@west.net, Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:29:51 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 19:42:39 -0500 Subject: Shulman On 'Sightings' December 3 Jeff Rense has just told me that he has spoken at length with Jack Shulman Tuesday, and that he'll be on Wednesday's "Sightings On The Radio" after Michael Lindemann. Stig
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 Korean Battlefield UFO Encounter From: Stig_Agermose@ONLINE.POL.DK (Stig Agermose) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:46:36 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 19:56:54 -0500 Subject: Korean Battlefield UFO Encounter Found at http://www.sightings.com/ufo/1korea.htm Korean War Battlefield UFO Encounter Bizarre Craft Hit Soldiers With Debilitating Light Beam Courtesy John Timmerman, J. Allen Hynek Center For UFO Studies Courtesy CNI News Note: You can hear a tape of Mr. Wall telling his story on the Sightings Radio show of 11-5-97 via RealAudio Archives. This text is an edited transcript of an interview between Mr. Francis P. Wall, a private first class (PFC) in the U.S. Army during the Korean War, and John Timmerman, an associate of the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies (CUFOS) in Chicago, Illinois. The interview took place in January, 1987. Noted UFO researcher Richard F. Haines checked military records and found Mr. Wall listed as a Korean combatant in the infantry unit he names below. Haines also requested and received from Mr. Wall a drawing of the aerial object he claims to have seen. The drawing depicts a very typical "flying saucer." CNI News thanks John Timmerman for permission to reprint this text. Mr. Wall recounts his experience as follows: "This event that I am about to relate to you is the truth, so help me God. It happened in the early Spring of 1951 in Korea. We were in the Army infantry, 25th Division, 27th Regiment, 2nd Battalion, 'Easy' Company. We were in what is known on the military maps as the Iron Triangle, near Chorwon. "It is night. We are located on the slopes of a mountain, below [which] there is a Korean village. Previously we have sent our men into this village to warn the populace that we are going to bombard it with artillery. On this night, we were doing just that. We had aerial artillery bursts coming in. "We suddenly noticed on our right-hand side what appeared to be a jack-o-lantern come wafting down across the mountain. And at first no one thought anything about it. So we noticed that this thing continued on down to the village to where, indeed, the artillery air bursts were exploding. It had an orange glow in the beginning. We further noticed that this object was [so] quick that it could get into the center of an airburst of artillery and yet remain unharmed. "[The] time element on this, I would say, [was] anywhere from, oh, forty-five minutes to an hour all told. "But then this object approached us. And it turned a blue-green brilliant light. It's hard to distinguish the size of it; there's no way to compare it. The light was pulsating. This object approached us. "I asked for and received permission from Lt. Evans, our campany commander at that time, to fire upon this object, which I did with an M-1 rifle with armor-piercing bullets. And I did hit it. It must have been metallic because you could hear when the projectile slammed into it. "Now why would that bullet damage this craft if the artillery rounds didn't? I don't know, unless they had dropped their protective field around them, or whatever. But the object went wild, and the light was going on and off. It went off completely once, briefly. And it was moving erratically from side to side as though it might crash to the ground. Then, a sound -- we had heard no sound previous to this -- the sound of, like, diesel locomotives revving up. That's the way this thing sounded. "And then, we were attacked. We were swept by some form of a ray that was emitted in pulses, in waves that you could visually see only when it was aiming directly at you. That is to say, like a searchlight sweeps around and... you would see it coming at you. Now you would feel a burning, tingling sensation all over your body, as though something were penetrating you. "So the company commander, Lt. Evans, hauled us into our bunkers. We didn't know what was going to happen. We were scared. These are underground dugouts where you have peep holes to look out to fire at the enemy. So, I'm in my bunker with another man. We're peeping out at this thing. It hovered over us for a while, lit up the whole area with its light, and then I saw it shoot off at a 45 degree angle, that quick, just there and gone. That quick. And it was as though that was the end of it. "But, three days later the entire company of men had to be evacuated by ambulance. They had to cut roads in there and haul them out. They were too weak to walk. They had dysentery. Then subsequently, when the doctors did see them, they had an extremely high white blood cell count which the doctors could not account for. "Now in the military, especially the Army, each day you file a company report. We had a confab about that. Do we file it in the report or not? And the consensus was 'No.' Because they'd lock every one of us up and think we were crazy. At that time, no such thing as a UFO had ever been heard of, and we didn't know what it was. "I still don't know what it was. But I do know that since that time I have periods of disorientation, memory loss, and I dropped from 180 pounds to 138 pounds after I got back to this country. And I've had great difficulty keeping my weight up. Indeed, I'm retired and disabled today." Email eotl@west.net Homepage UFOs
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: fergus@ukraine.corp.mot.com [George Fergus] Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:22:45 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 20:03:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:19:34 -0500 > From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> > Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > As we now know, in his radio interview, Arnold stated: > "I was approximately 25 to 28 miles from Mt. Rainier, I climbed > back up to 9200 feet and I noticed to the left of me a chain > which looked to me like the tail of a Chinese kite, kind of > weaving and going at a terrific speed across the face of Mt. > Rainier. I, at first, thought they were geese because it flew > like geese, but it was going so fast that I immediately changed > my mind and decided it was a bunch of new jet planes in > formation". > According to this testimony, when Arnold first notices the > puzzling objects, they are already passing the face of Mount > Ranier, apparently to Arnold's left as he was flying > approximately 160 degrees south. > Arnold at first recognises these may be geese, because they flew > like geese, but discounts this as the objects seem to be > travelling much too fast. He immediately changes his mind and > decides they must be jet planes, especially as they are flying in > formation. > There's no evidence he considered any other possibilities. > Arnold continues: > "Well, as the plane come to the edge of Mt. Rainier flying at > about 160 degrees south, I thought I would clock them because it > was such a clear day, and I didn't know where their destination > was, but due to the fact that I had Mt. Saint Helens and Mt. > Adams to clock them by, I just thought I'd see just how fast they > were going, since among pilots we argue about speed so much. And, > they seemed to flip and flash in the sun, just like a mirror, > and, in fact, I happened to be in an angle from the sun that > seemed to hit the tops of these peculiar looking things in such a > way that it almost blinded you when you looked at them through > your plexiglass windshield". > He's flying "at about 160 degrees south" and in his Blue Book > report claims, "I observed a chain of nine peculiar looking > aircraft flying from north to south at approximately 9,500 ft > elevation and going, seemingly, in a definite direction of about > 170 degrees". > This places Arnold and the objects on an almost parallel course. I don't think this is right. Since Arnold states elsewhere that he was originally flying due east, I took it that Arnold's mention of "160 degrees south" was in reference to the mystery planes, not his own, and that he probably meant to say "as the planes came to the edge of Mt. Rainier". The difference between "plane" and "planes" might be a transcription error, or it might be that he was thinking of only the leading "plane" at this point in time. Note that a similar problem occurs in the previous paragraph, where he says he "thought they were geese because it flew like geese". Also, I am not sure how much credence we should give to his estimate of the objects' flight path as either "160" or "170" degrees south. Since he thought the objects were flying among the mountain peaks many miles distant, it is unlikely that he could have made such a precise estimate of their direction of flight solely from his own observations. More likely, he simply drew a mental line from Mt. Rainier to Mt. Adams, originally estimating it as 160 degrees and later correcting it to 170 degrees after he had a chance to measure it on a map. As I suggested yesterday, if the objects were really large birds such as pelicans, and were actually much closer to Arnold than he thought, then the explanation for why he did not eventually catch up to the slower-flying birds may be that it wasn't until after they crossed his flight path that he "turned the plane around and opened the window" to get a better look at them, so he was actually heading southwest at this point, more perpendicular than parallel to the flight path of the objects, and thus on a divergent course. Remember, he was not trying to follow the objects, which he thought were fast & distant, but was simply trying to orient his plane so as to get the best view of them. (He was not concerned about getting back to his eastward course right away, since on every flight in that area he already spent "an hour or two" looking for a lost plane.) At this point, concentrating on identifying the objects themselves, he might have lost sight of them before he could realize that his line of sight to them was now moving in the wrong direction relative to Mt. Adams. Acording to this scenario, Arnold's best observation of the "pelicans" would have been from the right rear, rather than from the side. My questions are: What does a pelican look like from this angle? Would migrating penguins be seen flapping, or would they spend most of their time gliding? Exactly how did Arnold determine the 3-D shape of the objects, if he only saw them edge-on? (within 2 degrees of horizontal, as estimated by Dr. Maccabee) -George Fergus
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c From: XianneKei@aol.com [Rebecca Keith] Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:12:01 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 20:28:51 -0500 Subject: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c >From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> >Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:22:54 -0500 >Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:05:52 -0500 >Subject: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > UFOs are not a religion to you, nor to me, but they are > a religion to a large number of people. And I see those > numbers growing. > Rather than going into denial, probably it would be more > constructive to try to do something about it. Perhaps limiting ourselves to a discussion of FACTS and not speculations about ultraterrestrials, etc., would be a good place to start. <g> I'm curious Bob, how would we go about steering away from the religious aspects that crop up from time to time? I'm serious. Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] & From: William.Hamilton@pcsmail.pcshs.com Date: 3 Dec 1997 20:11:07 UT Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 20:15:55 -0500 Subject: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] & >> Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:16:16 -0500 >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> >> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> > > >Subject: re: UFO UpDate: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > > >Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:51:56 -0800 > > >However a significant portion of abduction and fringe cases, > > >usually adopted by PNH adherents or UFO skeptics, do indeed > > >violate physics as we know it, not to mention biology and a few > > >other areas. >> Your key phrase is "as we know it". Much of what we do in >> our everyday lives today violates the laws of science as they >> were known in the not-too-distant past. >Actually, Bob, the "laws" of science are pretty well constrained, >and there are relatively few of them, most of which have been >around for a very long time. > The law of gravity > The law of conservation of energy > The laws of inertia > etc. >To the best of my knowledge, nothing man does now violates these >laws, and, for that matter, nothing in the vast majority of UFO >reports represents an unambiguous violation of these laws. Comment: Sometimes a huge object has been sighted that changes shape, then shrinks to a small object, then disappears. This is, indeed, extraordinary, and we may not comprehend the process at this time, but still no evidence any physical law is violated. Perhaps just an extension of our current physical paradigms. >From our own experience, for instance, we know that while >aircraft fly (via engineering), they do not violate the laws of >gravity, inertia, etc. UFOs may not fly in the same sense that aircraft fly, i.e. supported by a stream of moving air creating pressure differentials, but they may fly using gravitational fields in an analagous way. >UFOs, likewise, do fly, but they provide every indication of >producing (and thus consuming) energy while they do so. I would >cite the various luminious and radiation effects, not to mention >the evidence of object weight and solidity, and especially those >cases which signal the presence of fields of force around UFOs >(windshield breakages, projectile deflections, etc). These >suggest that, while UFOs make use of an engineering we don't have >any real idea of how to accomplish, they still must oppose >gravity and inertia with some form of thrust, and they are solid >and material objects which do not "dematerialize" into energy >(although even that would not necessarily be a violation of >physics, conservation of mass being one of the few physical laws >which fell with the advent of e=mc^2). Just adding some comments to what Mark has stated so succinctly.. One of the earliest hypothesis concerning UFO flight and manuevering was proposed by Professor Hermann Oberth who speculated that the UFOs that appeared as solid material craft generated an artificial gravity field that countered the effects of earth's gravity and reduced or eliminated inertia. If gravity and inertia spring from the same source, the zero-point field permeating space, then it is likely that unknown craft are controlling movement by manipulating this field. Because of limited success with electrogravity and superconducting disc experiments, certain advanced thinkers with NASA's Breakthrough Physics Program are generating ideas that may lead to rocketless antigravitational propulsion systems which can warp space and circumvent the light-speed barrier for fast travel to the stars. If NASA eventually succeeds, then they may only be duplicating what others may have accomplished a long time ago from a place far far away. Sincerely, Bill Hamilton Search for other documents from or mentioning: william.hamilton | bob |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 Re: Was ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 18:35:04 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 20:45:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Was ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] > Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 11:18:24 PST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > > Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 05:46:29 -0600 > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c <snip> > > Hi John. > > Yes, I agree. > > I have just finished telling Jerry that I personally have > > experienced what we would call, for want of a better word, > > Paranormal events. > > REgards, Mike > Hi, everybody, > Either I did not make myself clear, or the whole > ground of the discussion has shifted inexplicably. > Let me restate my point: > The issue is not whether there are unexplained, anomalous, or > arguably paranormal events and experiences in the world. Few on > this list would dispute that. (Probably just about everybody has > had at least one weird incident in his or her life. I have had > one or two myself.) The issue is whether Keel's "theories" -- one > hesitates to use such a respectable noun to characterize what are > in reality wild, even paranoid, guesses -- address them in any > useful or coherent way. In my view, they do not. > In mild exasperation, > Jerry Clark Hello Jerry (also Dennis, Mike and Everybody): I wasn't sure whether your comments were also directed at me, since I thought I had already acknowledged your concerns. However, just so that there is no misunderstanding, I am providing below an elaboration of my position. To ensure that my comments do not continue to interrupt your thread, I have changed the name of this thread to "Non-ETH Theories". I support your discussions with Dennis Stacey regarding some of the more theoretical aspects of ETH versus non-ETH theories from a scholarly point of view, and am grateful for any resultant knowledge gained as an observer. What I do object to are some of the insinuations that I feel are being made, either directly, or more subtly in the tone of the words being used, that only help to undermine what little progress (if any) has already been made in the non-ETH theoretical area. I appreciate that you do acknowledge the acceptance of those who have had "unusual experiences" that currently cannot be explained. However, you then seem to deny the value of some of the pioneering theories that try to explain this phenomena, by pointing out the ineptitude of efforts being made in this area by the few individuals courageous enough to investigate this difficult area. I don't think that there is anyone on this List who would deny that both Keel and Vallee are not employing the most scientific practices in their investigations. In fact, it would be difficult to find a good example of any UFO investigator who employs perfect or even near-perfect practices. However, in their support, it cannot be denied that theoretically, scientific practice is far easier and "safer" (from a peer perspective) when it concerns itself with the more physical aspects of the UFO phenomena (ETH) as opposed to the more non-physical aspects (non-ETH). There are tools readily available to measure both physical objects and traces of physical objects, and there is the comfort of a long precedence of established techniques and well-argued theoretical perspectives. When it comes to the more non-physical aspects of the UFO phenomena, there seems to be great resistance from the UFO community to acknowldge its possibility and research it further, especially from those who have never personally experienced any unusual events. This is quite understandable, and I would think that many of those who have had experiences have been on that side of the fence at some point in their life, especially before they were aware of the number of other such occurrences happening to others. However, I think that today, the volume of such reports should be an indication that such occurrences can no longer be denied. Therefore, there has been very little progress in what I would call the "non-ETH" side of the phenomena. There are few, if any scientific tools available to measure such things as apparent "non-physical" manifestations and "out-of-body" type of experiences. Psychiatrists have attempted to investigate these in terms of various states of mind or emotions. Others have attempted to explain them in terms of various understandable events such as electrical, mechanical or chemical stimulation of the brain. However, these excursions have not been able to explain away all of the reported phenomena. So what avenues of investigation remain? Many researchers don't want to even come close, fearing not only ridicule from their peers, but also frustration in their inability to "measure" the phenomena in any scientifically acceptable way. It is therefore easier to deny the phenomena by casting ridicule on it, and calling those who attempt to deal with it "paranoid", or "nutters", or to call their theories "half-baked". This leaves the field with little possibility for further scholarly evolution. As I've said before, I agree that Vallee's methods can hardly be classified as "scientific". As for Keel, I don't really think he was even trying to be scientific. He has a story to tell, and he has some opinions about what may help explain the events. He provides some interesting non-scientific "theories" seemingly based on little more than his own intuition. He's hardly the person I would chose to be the spokesperson for non-ETH theories, but at least he has made an attempt to address this difficult area and has broken a trail, however crude, for others to further develop and refine. What other choices are currently available? So why you need to continue to debate their lack of competence is beyond me. But calling Keel "paranoid" and "half-baked" is not only scientifically unjustifiable but does little to help advance the cause. Instead, I feel that more value would be gained if investigators could help build on what has already been started, and progress the theories into something that has a little more credibility, rather than leaving this field perpetually associated with "paranoids", "nutters" and "half-baked" theorists, thereby continuing to scare off those who wish to explore these theories further as possible starting points. Undeniaby, from many perspectives, the non-ETH area will continue to be a challenging area to address, and will require the attention of investigators/theorists with the strength and courage to withstand all of the initial rebukes and "jeers from peers". But since it is an area that has hardly been touched, it has great potential and will likely draw greater readership than may be realized. After all, there is likely a great silent majority of "paranoid" and "nutter" experiencers out there just waiting to find out why the scientific communities are failing them! <G> John Koopmans Search for other documents from or mentioning: john.koopmans | clark |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 3 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:39:08 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 21:17:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:19:34 -0500 > From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> > Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Regarding... > > >Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 00:33:55 -0500 > >From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> > >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > ---snip--- > The ideal person to offer an informed opinion would be a pilot > who has encountered pelicans in flight and I came across a glider > pilot who, no pun intended, "fitted the bill". He has been > accompanied in flight by a flock of pelicans and apparently this > has happened to other glider pilots he's spoken to, the birds > seemingly quite happy to accept the glider as a "bigger > brother". ---snip--- > How far away might a formation of pelicans be visible? > Our glider pilot states: > "Visibility depends on several factors. The one having the most > effect of course is how much "haze" or other particulate matter > is in the air (i.e. smog, smoke). At low altitudes, visibility is > lowered because of this. However, at higher altitudes, something > like the white body of a pelican contrasts nicely with the blue > sky. > Myself, (a pilot with average eyesight) I can distinguish the > basic shape (a body with wings) of these pelicans from about 4 > miles when flying above the haze. From 4 to maybe 6 miles they > become small dots. Beyond that, I'd say they would probably not > be distinguishable other than some sort of relative motion that > may catch your eye".---snip--- > Also, the evidence isn't mine, I'm merely highlighting some > observations and relevant opinions and how they might relate to > the Arnold case.---snip--- > From an active member of one of Canada's foremost AWP > monitoring and conservation projects: > "Everything in Arnold's description that you quoted points to the > strong possibility he saw a flock of AWPs... the formation, the > allusion to the tail of a Chinese kite, etc. > "I have been baffled by optical illusions of distance when these > birds are against a backdrop (hills)". > What remains debatable is Arnold's perception of relative > distance and airspeed. > If the objects which Kenneth Arnold witnessed were indeed a > formation of alien spaceships flying in echelon, perhaps we might > expect to find at least one similar sighting report during the > past fifty years. > Are there any comparative reports? > James. > E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com What is most debatable is James's ability to research and analyze the data available and his ability to keep the scope of his positions wider than each specific point he is discussing. James fails to do his homework. The glider pilot says that he can distinguish a pelican up to four miles away and observe them past six miles with his average unaided eyes. Is the pilot a good judge of distance? Although a pelican's wing span may exceed 10 feet. At a distance, averaging its cross-section, it would be a fluctuating blob about 5 feet across. At 4 miles, it would have an angular diameter of about 0 degrees 0 minutes 49 seconds. The receptor cells in the eye have an angular diameter of 0 degrees 1 minute plus or minus. Even at 4 miles, the pelican is a teency weency dot. To identify a big bird it would have to eclipse an area of the retina of some 10 by 10 cells or so having an angular diameter of +- 10 minutes. This would place a pelican LESS than 1/2 mile away or 1/8 of the distance claimed by the pilot of the glider. If James would do some basic science, he would understand the treachery of static estimation of distance. And he certainly would have refrained from the embarassment of submitting the pilots story as supporting evidence. A variation of these arguments apply to the bird watcher's observations. Depth perception is aided not only by having two eyes, but also by the motion of the observer causing movement of the object against a distant background. In fact human depth perception from stereoscoptic vision is only good to a hundred meters or so. Beyond that, we estimate distance by moving our heads about, judging the relative motion of one object against another. Most bird watchers that I am aware of definitely do NOT bounce around some meter or so while watching birds. As static observers, they are easily "baffled by optical illusions of distance." Arnold was not a static observer nor an inept diletante pilot. As I have written before, any modest motion of a meter or so of Arnold's plane PERPENDICULAR to the geometric plane of their flight paths would have made it easier to distinguish big birds near the plane from big flying craft closer to the mountains. Arnold did have a convenient and familiar tool for crudely judging distance that a static observer would not have. These are just two of the many faulty points that James has been making in this thread. He fails to research and apply science to the mechanics of the event. Apparently he has not taken the three or four accounts of this event and attempted to construct a best-fit timeline and position map of what really happened allowing for the foibles of human perception, memory, and narrative skill. This allows him to unfairly select phrases from one or the other of Arnold's accounts to support his points rather than presenting his issues to better understand what really happened. Using selected phrases from the Warren Commission, I could create strong arguments that pelicans shot Kennedy. Again I find myself in awe of Bruce Maccabee for being so patient with another person who is arguing so poorly. It would be difficult for me to repeatedly cover the same points with another person. Bye... Ted..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass Sightings From: edwards@amigo.net (TIM EDWARDS) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:42:05 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 01:20:17 -0500 Subject: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass Sightings Dozens upon dozens of reports on the Seattle and Northwestern US Mass sighting Nov. 14 can be found at: http://www.nwlink.com/~ufocntr/ Included in the reports is a press release by Peterson Field Air Base, Colorado that a Soviet Rocket came down Nov. 16 NOT the 14. A lot of these reports are very derogatory to the official explanation of space-debris re-entering. Check it out. Tim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 03:47:24 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 01:22:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony >From: fergus@ukraine.corp.mot.com [George Fergus] >Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:22:45 -0600 (CST) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony >> Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:19:34 -0500 >> From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> >> Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> <a lot snipped> >As I suggested yesterday, if the objects were really large birds >such as pelicans, and were actually much closer to Arnold than he >thought, then the explanation for why he did not eventually catch >up to the slower-flying birds may be that it wasn't until after >they crossed his flight path that he "turned the plane around and >opened the window" to get a better look at them, so he was >actually heading southwest at this point, more perpendicular than >parallel to the flight path of the objects, and thus on a >divergent course. Remember, he was not trying to follow the >objects, which he thought were fast & distant, but was simply >trying to orient his plane so as to get the best view of them. >(He was not concerned about getting back to his eastward course >right away, since on every flight in that area he already spent >"an hour or two" looking for a lost plane.) At this point, >concentrating on identifying the objects themselves, he might >have lost sight of them before he could realize that his line of >sight to them was now moving in the wrong direction relative to >Mt. Adams. >Acording to this scenario, Arnold's best observation of the >"pelicans" would have been from the right rear, rather than from >the side. My questions are: >What does a pelican look like from this angle? >Would migrating penguins be seen flapping, or would they spend >most of their time gliding? >Exactly how did Arnold determine the 3-D shape of the objects, if >he only saw them edge-on? (within 2 degrees of horizontal, as >estimated by Dr. Maccabee) >-George Fergus In the latest edition of Alien Encounters I read that a flock of geese was responsible for UFO sightings over the Australian town of Perth as well as for blocking out the sunlight over the whole town, plunging it into total darkness. That considered, I don't understand why this thread has shifted to pelicans. Surely, if geese have such magical capabilities, flying supersonic or distorting Arnold's memory must be part of their bag of tricks as well. Btw. I found two interesting general bogus explanation in this issue: sudden epilepsy and floaters in the eye. Sean, add them to your list. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Re: UFO Database interest From: UFO Joe Daniels <ufojoe@cron-2.mco.on.ca> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:30:39 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 01:25:41 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Database interest > > From: "R.Bull" <RAB@cadcentre.co.uk> [Rob Bull] > > Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 17:44:00 GMT > > Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:08:16 -0500 > > Subject: Re: UFO Database interest > > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > >From: "Serge Salvaille" <sergesa@connectmmic.net> > > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: UFO Database interest > > >Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 15:18:18 -0500 It would be a mistake to develope the database around any particular database structure in my opinion as the computer industry moves too quickly and old formats die. The only format that has not changed in the last 30 years is "pure" text or ASCII. Such databases can be implemented quite easily using the standard unix/DOS utilities such as grep, awk and sed. If not it can easily be implemented under any platform using just about any language and all web browsers have the ability to display "pure" text and all e-mail programs have the ability to send/recieve them as well as display them. The second alternative you might want to consider is HTML, however, although it's quickly become a world-wide standard, it's not been around for 30 years. You have no idea what the new standard might be in five or ten years and then you'd be looking at a series of huge conversion projects.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:34:25 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 01:27:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony Regarding... >Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:39:08 -0800 >From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony Ted wrote: >The receptor cells in the eye have an angular diameter of 0 degrees >1 minute plus or minus. etc... Ted, Using the same scientific formula, please tell us how large Kenneth Arnold's UFOs must have been at a minimum, based on Arnold's later claim that, "I observed, far to my left and to the north, a formation of very bright objects coming from the vicinity of Mt. Baker, flying very close to the mountain tops and travelling at tremendous speed". "At first I couldn't make out their shapes as they were still at a distance of over a hundred miles". James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Re: That Ol' Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis From: DevereuxP@aol.com [Paul Devereux] Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:44:27 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 01:34:10 -0500 Subject: Re: That Ol' Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis Sean Jones writes: >Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 09:38:37 +0000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: That Ol' Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis >>From: DevereuxP@aol.com [Paul Devereux] >>Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 09:15:19 -0500 (EST) >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: That Ol' Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis <snip> >>...<snip>.. yes, indeed, I did see a craft, in the early >>1950s.... <snip> .. It was a dirigible-type airship of huge >>proportions.....<snip> >Paul, who apart from you has researched this case? Nobody as far as I know, Sean. I was just telling of my experience. However, in the 1970s a colleague, Andy York, and I did study and map the locations of UFO reports for the county of Leicestershire (where my childhood sighting took place), and I couldn't help but notice that over a 20-year period covered by the UFO report archives we studied, there had been three (or four) reports of an unexplained "cigar-shaped" object in the area of sky over Humberstone, where my sighting took place. I was intrigued, but don't know what to make of it. (My sighting was never reported officially, by the way.) >>(Also, as an aside here, geophysical phenomena can look like >>metallic disks and even lumps in the daylight sky too - so >>these are another phenomena that might get mixed in with some >>genuine sightings of this even more exotic kind. There is also >>a pitch black aeroform, that I suspect is linked with earth >>lights phenomena.) >Is this your argument for why (in your opinion) earth lights are >the cause of most if not all of the "unexplained" ufo sightings? Not specifically, no. I'm just pointing out the fact and suggesting that it be taken into consideration. You have to admit, surely, that it is not without significance? >>...<snip>... The ETH doesn't have to be disproven. It has >>to be proven. >I disagree, logic has nothing to do with it...<snip> So it seems. >>Phenomena like earth lights....<snip> >I doubt that anyone on this list would argue that it is not a >valid phenomenom but it does not explain the majority of >unexplained ufo cases like you seem to think that it does. Well, bear in mind that ufologists tend to focus on a relatively small number of high strangeness cases, while the bulk of the week-to-week reports go by without comment. It is that bulk I am considering when I make that claim. As for the much smaller number of "classic" cases that occupy so much of the literature and attention, their ET status remains to be confirmed. Some are not what they seem, I am sure, some may well be geophysical, some may be something even weirder. Neither you nor I know, Sean, so please do not keep coming from a position as if you do. You have your opinions, for sure, and I have mine, but that is something else again. >>But I am not aware I have ever said we should disregard >>high-strangeness cases. If I did, it was a slip. >We all make slips Paul. Now, now - watch that "attitude" Sean. I don't think I *did* make a slip - I was just saying "if I did". >>I entered a fully-3-Dimensional space.... <snip> >This also could be discribed as an abduction...<snip> Precisely my point. >>...<snip> I was in a mental state that had been >>deliberately induced by manipulation of my REMs....<snip> >How do you *know* this Paul? Because it was a designed experimental procedure. We did what we set out to do. We undertook special procedures, and the whole affair was conducted with full intent, knowledge and consciousness throughout. >>So -- the abduction phenomenon is being heavily worked on, but >>outside the ufological frame. Indeed, one of my projects is to >>abduct an alien! >I wish you the very best of luck with this endeavour Paul. Thank you - I *genuinely* appreciate that encouragement. It's rare in these parts! >>Good for you. Excellent. First class... >Nice to see that you can give out compliments as well as insults >Paul. Well, I call 'em as I see 'em, Sean. If someone is trying on "attitude" with me, if they are sarcastic, needling, insulting, disrespectful, etc etc, they are likely to get short shrift from me (my Irish DNA, no doubt). But I do not set out to insult anyone. In the particular exchange you take my comments above from, Geoff obviously had problems with my approach, but was polite and sensible, and I answered in kind. If ever I am sharp with anyone, they only have to look in the mirror to find out why. And I must say, since making what I consider to be perfectly reasonable and worthwhile points on this list, I have been subjected to some outrageous rudeness. (For which the ufological community is infamous, by the way.) Take the whole context, Sean. And, furthermore, let us be brutally honest. I have been demonised (even your postings to me, Sean, have been studded with attitude, like I say, and sarcasm, and provocation) because I have had the temerity to question the amount of energy taken up by the ETH/ETM, and to suggest it may not be the be-all and end-all. That's what has got up ETHer's noses. How dare I say such a thing! What a bounder I must be. After such an "outrage", nothing I say can be considered as being of value. Etc. Such defensiveness concerning the ETH/ETM is part of the problem I have been trying to highlight. >Perhaps the first step could be forming a "qualification" that >validates a person to call themselves a Ufologist/UFO >researcher?? It would depend who was dishing out the qualifications! Judging from some of the flack I have received for some modest and perfectly legitimate points of view, I for one wouldn't be given a certificate, would I? Until we can agree what needs to be researched, and until we can respect that people like myself are doing front-line research into abductions and geophysical phenomena, and that such research is part of ufological concern, your proposal could never come into being. As it stands, if a persons's approach and work isn't within a very narrow frame based on the *assumption* that the ETH/ETM is the answer to UFOs,then it is perceived as having no relevance to the ufological mainstream. Therein lies the problem with ufology. It drives away good people. Best wishes, Paul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 19:18:18 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 01:35:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:41:16 -0500 To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 05:12:57 -0500 >To: updates@globalserve.net >From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com> >Subject: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >David M. Jacobs, Ph. D., Associate Professor of History, Temple >University and author of _Secret Life_ has acknowledged on at >least two occasions that there is an intimate connection between >the Alien Abduction Experience and the Out-of-Body Experience: >Hello Errol, Joe, David, All,> >Please consider this, just two cents from 'wonnadem!' <G> >Joe intended for David to respond to this and I hope he does, but >as one of the "subjects" (abductee) of these questions I'd just >like to throw my two cents in before the discussion takes off in >earnest. >Until about six years ago I had rationalized my lifetime of >unexplained experiences and memories as OOBE's (out of body >exp's) vivid nightmares, and several unexplained objects (UFO >sightings) I had seen in the sky (throughout my life - beginning >in childhood) that simply didn't fit in with anything -I- knew >of. John, thanks for "trumping in" with your enlightening message from "wonadem".
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Re: Solved Abduction Cases? From: DevereuxP@aol.com [Paul Devereux] Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:00:43 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 02:06:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Solved Abduction Cases? Mark Cashman wrote: >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >Subject: re: UFO UpDate: Re: Solved Abduction Cases? >Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:23:35 -0800 >> From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] >> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:24:34 PST >> To: updates@globalserve.net >> Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Solved Abduction Cases? <snip> >My view is that Ufology may have a folklore, in the sense of >enduring and frequently repeated stories which serve to remind >us of why this subject is worth investigating. There are other >stories as well, which seem to have a certain kind of value that >is separate from their usually non-existent factual content, in >the same sense that a good, cautionary SF tale has value. >But Ufology is not alone in either of these aspects... <snip> I don't think anyone is suggesting ufology is alone in this respect - the difficulty is getting ufologists to realise that they are dealing with folkloric processes at all! Mention folklore, and there is this huge outcry. It is as if ufology is to be thought as being above folklore. Yet, how can we view Adamski's stories and the fifties "contactee culture" today without thinking of them being folklore? And did not Strieber's "Communion" contribute to the folklore of grays and abductions? And wasn't the Hale-Bopp business a piece of folklore? And doesn't much of what does the rounds regarding Roswell *have* to be folklore (even *if* one of the strands turns out to be true)? In my fictional folktale of Old Bill, I pointed out that folklore can (and often does) relate to a real incident, but need not express the actual truth of that incident. Sometimes, folktales are a kind of cognitive memorial. Verbal time capsules. But it is crucial not to mistake the finger for the moon. In the case of Roswell, *something* happened, and the folklore that has issued from it (most of it starting 20 years or later after the event, whatever it was, like much folklore) memorialises that something. But Roswellian folklore is not necessarily describibg the actual nature of that event. <snip> >However, the odd thing about good UFO cases when we try to view >them as folklore... <snip> No, this is not what is being said, you know. UFOs are not ufology. I have been saying, as have many others, that *ufology* is the container of the folklore. More precisely, folklore is the glue that holds it together. I actually witnessed ufological folkore at work earlier this year, when skywatching at Pine Bush. Standing along the roadside, in the dark, along with other watchers, one could hear the buzz of conversation that was the precise oral equivalent of what was on the net, on lists like Updates. Cyber-chatter had turned into oral tradition! I heard it, and heard it being further embellished. Such embellishment, in turn, would likely later get out onto the net - a symbiosis of storytelling. We are witnessing a new kind of folklore in a new age of instant electronic communciation. Folkore can be passed on the phone. It can even more easily be passed on the net into the virtual community. Electrolore. And as the new voice interfaces become more the norm, it will be literally a new oral tradition. A whisper tapped into your keyboard can be heard around the world. No processing or editing, as in a book or on TV, but raw, like word of mouth. It is terribly important for us not to be in denial about this process. It is actually going on. >There is, nonetheless, a "UFO culture". Actually, there are >several UFO cultures...<snip> Yup. Agreed. It's called ufology. >...But there are tools for weeding out the wheat from the chaff. >Some researchers fail to use those tools. There's a reason for >that, and I think it stems from the activities of those like >Klass, Menzel, and Kottmeyer, and the way their data distorting >explanations affect researchers...<snip> At least consider the possibility, Mark, that there may only be chaff in many instances (I assume you are thinking of folklore as "chaff"). And it is a matter of opinion as to whether the likes of Kottemeyer are "distorting their data". For all I know, some of the "researchers" you refer to whom you might consider as paragons of truth may be those I would consider as distorting their data to fit their own pet theories and beliefs. It is all such a shaky business, y'know. I think it should be pointed out that the presence of folklore as a binding element within ufology is not in itself necessarily a negative factor. I wasn't thinking of folklore as somehow being negative or as explaining anything away when I gave this present round on the subject its spin. What *is* important, however, and this is the point I was initially trying to make, is to recognise that it is there, and the role it plays. And not to be in denial about it. Finger and moon. Finger and moon. Cheers, Paul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Clarke's Art Work From: "Julianne Presson" <earthwrk@doitnow.com> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 01:27:04 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 02:09:46 -0500 Subject: Clarke's Art Work My compliments to the list... For any and all who may have an interest, I have finally gotten off of my lazy keister and put up a Cyber Gallery containing most of my art work. The paintings were put up into categories including the two UFO/Alien related pages. I invite one and all to drop by, have a look and send me commentary (email drop provided). The URL is: www.crossfields.com/~art I look forward to your visit! Kindest Regards... Clarke Hathaway
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Re: UFO Database interest From: galevy@pipeline.com [Gary Alevy] Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 23:10:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 02:11:54 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Database interest > Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 09:59:41 -0600 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Database interest > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >From: "Serge Salvaille" <sergesa@connectmmic.net> > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: UFO Database interest > >Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 15:18:18 -0500 > >Joel, > We are still in the planning stages, so any helpful input you ma > have is greatly appreciated. We want to avoid as many obvious > pitfalls as we can from the start. Less time wasted. This is a > long term project: Ultimate UFO Report Database (UUFORD), so I > have no illusions that it will pop up like a dandilion in > spring. > Thanks. > Joel Henry After you have the Ultimate UFO Report Database what will you do with it? Will it really prove anything that all of the databases of sightings that have preceeded it could not? What is the objective of this effort that has not been accomplished previously? Will it take 5,000 10,000 100,000 sighting reports to achieve what ever these goals are? Gary
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: galevy@pipeline.com [Gary Alevy] Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 23:17:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 02:14:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:19:34 -0500 > From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> > Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Regarding... > >Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 00:33:55 -0500 > >From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> > >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > Bruce, <snip> > If the objects which Kenneth Arnold witnessed were indeed a > formation of alien spaceships flying in echelon, perhaps we might > expect to find at least one similar sighting report during the > past fifty years. > Are there any comparative reports? > James. > E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com Sure there are reports of formation flights - read Edward J. Ruppelt's 'The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects'. Gary
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Re: Clark and ETH From: DevereuxP@aol.com [Paul Devereaux] Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:43:45 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 02:27:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark and ETH Jerry Clark wrote: >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] >Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:15:49 PST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Clark and ETH [Solved Abduction Cases?] >> From: DevereuxP@aol.com >> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:48:44 -0500 (EST) >> To: updates@globalserve.net >> Subject: Solved Abduction Cases? <snip> >...I do, however, appreciate the more moderate and thoughtful >tone of the current posting, and on my end I apologize for past >responses that may have sounded flippant or disrespectful... <snip> I appreciate the more moderate and thoughtful tone of the current posting, Jerry, and I accept your apology. Be polite with me, and I'll be polite with you. It was always that simple. <snip> >>A small number of us have been doing a heroic job in raising >>funding for field and other research, have involved mainstream >>science, have already produced more than anecdotal results, but >>instead of that being acknowledged, we are almost automatically >>criticised or even derided... >I will leave aside the issue of whether or not you are a >"hero," except to say that most would feel this is for others, >not you, to decide...<snip> I love your technique, Jerry: even when you are not being openly rude and hostile, you still keep wheedling away. I said the effort was heroic (as indeed it has been), like a sculpture can be heroic, not that I was a hero. Differing statements, old pal. But having said that, I do happen to think people like Erling Strand are indeed heroes. And, for that matter, people like Hal Puthoff, in carving days out of a horrendous schedule to spend time accompanying me on fieldwork. >> THE ETH AS THE DOMINANT PARADIGM IN UFOLOGICAL THINKING. <snip> >>... I do not think it is an explanation for any, but if the >>evidence should amount to proof in some cases, I will have no >>problems accepting it. I think there are definitely: >> Psychological UFOs >> Sociological UFOs >> Geophysical UFOs >> I'd add the ETH to that list as a possibility. But as someone >>who has seen anomalous luminous and dark aerial objects, and on >>one occasion a craft, I can say in total honesty I have not >>found it necessary to invoke the ETH to cope with any of them. >And of course others, including scientists and other trained >observers, have felt otherwise... <snip> Of course. And many, many, many more who have seen sweet F.A. <snip> >>... a study of alien abductions without recourse to the ETH >>reveals evidence amounting to proof as to what the "alien >>abduction" experience actually is. >Again, a matter of continuing discussion. The ETH has to be >considered as one possible reasonable interpretation of a small >number of well investigated, multiple-participant cases. Other >explanations simply lack compelling explanatory power in these >instances. Not true (as far as the abduction experience goes). The evidence that the alien abduction experience is a mind-experience and not a physical experience is overwhelming. (And that's all I am saying - I have explicitly stated that the ontological status of the abduction experience has to be further defined.) And a case I describe in the forthcoming UFOs & UFOLOGY book demonstrates that even multiple-experient abductions do not have to mean a physical, literal abduction has taken place. The tabloid end of ufology will hang onto a literalist explanation for alien abductions for years to come, but there is no excuse for scholars such as yourself, Jerry, to buy that approach any longer. While it is important for us to be looking into the ontology of the experience, that cannot happen within ufology until leading lights such as yourself admit that there is no future in being an apologist for abduction literalism. >At the same time, as I have stated repeatedly, there >is no reason to hold a dogmatic stance at this early stage of >the discussion/investigation... <snip> It is later than you think. And is it still dogmatic to say that the world is round? When does convenient intellectual laissez-faire run its course? <snip> >>...(I am amazed that I have already made this deliberately >> provocative statement without there being the least ripple of >> interest by either Jerry or, apparently, more than a couple of >> people on this list.) >Somehow I have the sense that we're being set up here for a big >anticlimax, but go ahead, tell the story, and let the rest of >us judge its relevance. Geoff Price got in ahead of you, Jerry.(See also my response to Sean Jones.) I'm sorry if you think research is "a big anticlimax". I guess that's why ufology is what it is at present. I can tell you that the experience itself was no anti-climax. <snip> >As I have said before, the ETH -- which I happen to like, by >the way... Even though it isn't *a* hypothesis, and is so general it can only be called a motif? >.... has not been ufology's "dominant paradigm" since >the mid-1960s. Anybody can determine that for himself or >herself by reading this list... <snip> I have to ask you what planet you are on, let alone what list! <snip> >...we've actually had to endure a long, tedious exchange on >whether Ken Arnold saw birds,for god's sake. One would like to >think this was all done tongue in cheek, but this is the sort of >thing that passes for thinking in influential corners of ufology >these days. I fully agree with you about the geese! But spare a thought for what has to be endured by those of us who do not view the ETH/ETM in such a positive light as you do. >> <snip>.... Dealing with the latter possibility first, it is my >>contention, as I expressed in an early posting to you, Jerry, >>that it is indeed skewing several stands of research and >>inhibiting the disclosure of other possibilities. In this >>sense, it is acting like a self-fulfilling pattern of thought. >>As a matter of fact, I would go further: I think that within >>mainstream ufology anything that is not ETH-based in some form >>or other is viewed as non-ufological, and essentially of minor >>or no interest. Further still, if it was finally proven that >>the ETH is not the answer in ufology, I suggest that most >>people now attracted to ufology would go elsewhere and the >>subject would drop to a minor strand of intellectual curiosity >>within our culture, notwithstanding other important scientific >>and philosophical matters that might emerge in the ETH's stead. >I would like to know of a funded mainstream science >investigation of UFOs and the ETH. I know the literature pretty >well, and I've never heard of one. I doubt that one exists. >The ETH has been the subject of hand-waving dismissal in the >mainstream scientific literature but never of balanced, >searching appraisal. One way to read your argument is that >science's neglect of the ETH justifies its continued neglect. Forgive me, I'm not quite sure what this statement of yours has to do with anything I was saying. >> ALIEN ABDUCTION: I think we could set about raising the data >> within ufology itself (it has already been raised outside of >> ufology) to demonstrate that the alien abduction experience, >> for example, is just one modest strand of a broader literature >> relating to an extremely deep-seated human experience as old >>as the human mind. >So you believe. And others disagree. The discussion continues, >as well it should. My statement is far more than a belief - it is demonstrable. We can provide more evidence that the abduction experience is a mind phenomenon than the literalists can that it is a physical one. But I fully agree with you that most people (within ufology - an important qualification) do not think that. That, really, is what I was trying to say: can we get the matter dealt with more broadly within ufology (for ufology's sake - the work will go on within or without ufology regardless)? >> AERIAL PHENOMENA: In the case of things seen-in-the sky, while >> the ETH should stay on the table, it should not be as >>overbearing as it currently is and has been for nearly 50 >>years. It should be given nothing more than equal weighting >>with social, psychological and geophysical UFOs - and perhaps >>UFOs of a type we haven't even thought of as yet...<snip> >It is a myth that the ETH dominates ufology.... <snip> If you truly believe this, you are either in denial or are not paying attention as to what is occupying the attention of mainstream ufology today. Even the "occult" and "conspiracy" folklore themes are attached to the ETH in one form or another. It may not be the old form of "the" ETH, but the ETM is there fully entrenched. It is not worth even arguing this point. <snip> >...it seems to me your dispute is with all scientists who think >ETs exist and could visit here, even if they happen to reject >the idea that it's happening now. The ETH is so consistent with >many streams of exobiological/SETI theory that you ought to put >aside your unique obsession with ufologists and take on ETI >theorists in mainstream science. No - this is a fundamental error that is often made. You are talking about the possibility of other life in the universe - exobiology. I am immediately open to that possibility(though with the cautionary thought that life might be even more precious than we think it is). This is *not* the same issue as whether a zoo-load of alien beings and variegated craft are visiting the Earth or not. As far as these present exchanges go, it is this latter issue I am addressing. >> Also, a study of the history of ufology shows conclusively >>that there is not one, single hypothesis that can be called the >>ETH, as Dennis Stacy has pointed out in another posting. There >>is and/or has been a riot of manifestations of what should more >>properly be called the ET Motif, the ETM. >Actually, I agree and write as much in my just published The UFO >Book. Only a small number of ufologists have formulated a >detailed, comprehensive ETH. Most writers have patterned their >ideas, and only sketchily, after speculations current in >current mainstream science (I here exclude contactees and other >extremists, obviously)... Why exclude them? They have been an essential part of ufology's history. I see nothing more "extreme" being postulated then than the notions flying around within ufology now! This is hindsight sanitisation. What you might think reasonable now, we may both agree in our bath-chairs was "extreme". The trick is to see what's going wrong *at the time*. In this, you are kicking and resisting all the way. Ufology is *not* what you and few mates in the upper mid-west think -- it is a rampant bed of rumour and extremist thinking. That is what the bulk of ufology *is*. The first step in attempting to enlarge the influence of moderation, and an expansion of though in ufology is to accept that the problems exist. It is no use pretending it is just a handful of nutters on the fringe of ufology. While most ufologists might be nice enough people, they nevertheless bathe in the culture that we call ufology. <snip> >As I have said more than once in this space, the finest writing >on the ETH is by Michael D. Swords. ETH-bashers ignore him to a >man or woman. Tellingly, I should think. I've read some of Swords' material, and have listened to him at length. His thoughts on exbiology may (possibly) be fine, but, as I say, this is not the issue. It is jumping from such speculations to the ufological ETH/ETM that crosses the logic gap. And it is a logic gap whether one jumps across it with two heavily-booted feet, or does a fancier Swords dance. <snip> >I have never said your ideas are not "worthy of discussion." >I have said the contrary. I just happen to think you're >wrong -- though interestingly so, which is more than I can >say for many UFO theorists. How can you say I'm "wrong"? And about what? And how can we broaden the thinking within ufology if people like you put a label *on what you don't like* that says "wrong"? <snip> >>... So, as a preliminary test, I took the first 100 postings of >>the list in my electronic in-tray... <snip>... This is what I >>found. >> My UpDates sample of 100 postings started on 11/04 and ended >>11/08. >> ETH/ETM-related: 62% >> Not ETH/ETM related: 38% >An imaginative reading, I should think. Most posters don't >refer to specific theories about UFOs, The exchanges usually >are about specific or general issues. The ETH receded in power >and influence in the mid-1960s... Then you are mistaken. There was nothing "imaginative" about my survey. That 62% (actually 67%) related to the ETH/ETM in one way or another. If anything, I cut out postings that should have been included. As I said - explicit *or implicit*. RELATED. My point was and is that the ETH/ETM is so insidious that it sets the agenda for most discussion, thought, approaches and beliefs within ufology. It sets the agenda, even when the discussion might ostensibly be about something else. No one is saying that the cyber-waves are full of erudite debates about the ETH/ETM. It is far, far more insidious than that. And that is precisely my point. Here I am, determining what is on this list by a reasoned approach and not mere opinion, and you airily dismiss it! (I expected as much - but then scolded myself for pre-judging you.) Jerry, as I have said - you are in denial. Honestly. >I confess I don't understand your particular >obsession... Or don't want to, perhaps. It is a pity that my call that we look at a set of problems gets labelled by you as being obsessive. If I speak out of line, it seems, I am "wrong" and suffering from an "obsession". There's not much hope if you continue to think like that, Jerry. >...Keyhoe and Lorenzen (to more than a few, barely remembered >historical figures). Their legacy lives on, for sure. <snip> >Lighten up, Paul. Ufology's universe strikes me as >more pluralistic than your own. Yes, it is pluralistic, but the ETH/ETM is the bass note behind most of ufological concern and involvement. It is the dominant drone. >I also encourage our readers to spend not just 14 days but 365 >of 1998 in following their thoughts where logic and evidence >take them. If we're to take 14 days off, let us take them off >from credulity, dogma, and sloppy thinking -- errors that are >hardly the sole property of proponents of the extraterrestrial >hypothesis. My suggestion was to try to forge some new pathways of thinking, without the crutch of the ETH/ETM. This is a biological factor, you know. When we think about something, the neurons fire in certain patterns. Once such a network has fired, the cells along the way are "kindled", primed, so to speak, to fire again with less resistance. This is the way habits are formed. This is why repetitative tasks can come to be "second nature", and drop more or less beneath our conscious threshold, even though they occupied our attention when we were learning them. The same thing happens with habits of thought. I am suggesting that recourse to one manifestation or other of the ETH/ETM is "second nature" in most of mainstream ufology. My idea of a 14-day break was to give the old firing patterns a rest, to make us more conscious about what we assume, and to perhaps fashion some tentative new firing networks inside our little noddles. Maybe the UFO enigma is bigger than we think, and we need to make more effort. In this, as in so much, Jerry, it seems my points pass you by. But I try to get through. Kind regards, Paul Devereux
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 00:39:13 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 10:08:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:39:08 -0800 From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:19:34 -0500 > From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> > Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >James fails to do his homework. The glider pilot says that he >can distinguish a pelican up to four miles away and observe th.em >past six miles with his average unaided eyes. Is the pilot a >good judge of distance? Although a pelican's wing span may >exceed 10 feet. At a distance, averaging its cross-section, it >would be a fluctuating blob about 5 feet across. At 4 miles, it >would have an angular diameter of about 0 degrees 0 minutes 49 >seconds. The receptor cells in the eye have an angular diameter >of 0 degrees 1 minute plus or minus. Even at 4 miles, the >pelican is a teency weency dot. To identify a big bird it would >have to eclipse an area of the retina of some 10 by 10 cells or >so having an angular diameter of +- 10 minutes. This would place >a pelican LESS than 1/2 mile away or 1/8 of the distance claimed >by the pilot of the glider. If James would do some basic >science, he would understand the treachery of static estimation >of distance. And he certainly would have refrained from the >embarassment of submitting the pilots story as supporting evidence. Good point, Ted. The spacing between receptors (cones) in the eye is about 2.5 microns. With a 17 mm effective focal length the angular spacing is about 0.147 milliradians. With 17.4 mr/degree, the angular spacing between receptors is about 0.147/17.4 = 0.008 deg or about 1/2 minute. Anything smaller than that could get lost between receptors. Projecting the spacing 0.147 mr out to 5 miles gives about 4 ft in cross-section perpendicular to the line of sight. Anything smaller than this would be barely detectable. The typical eye can determine shape, i.e., resolve two things next to each other, if they are about 2 arc minutes apart or 1/30 degree or about 0.6 mr, which is about 4 times the receptor spacing. Projecting 0.6 mr out to 5 miles yields abou 16 ft. Mighty large for a pelican. Arnold would be seeing wings mostly on edge so the 10 foot span might not be as important for viewing unless he were directly behind them. If we imagine that the body of the pelican is what Arnold would see, "modulated" by the flapping wings, and assign a 2 ft size to the body, then to be resolved with some accuracy (Arnold did say he could see a shape), then 0.6 mr corresponds to 2 ft at 3300 ft, or less than a mile. Suppose we let them be a mile away so that Arnol couldn't quite resolve their body shapes (and see wings beating). The UFOs crossed abot 60 degrees of view in about 100 seconds, or about 0.6 deg/sec or 10 mr/sec. Project this to a mile and get 0.01 miles per sec or 36 miles per hour. (a) can pelicans fly this fast at an altitude of about 9000 ft? (b) when Arnold turned his plane to fly generally parallel to the track he would have noticed the speed difference (c) as pointed out below, the parallax effect due to Arnold's high speed relative to pelicans only one mile away should have been immediately obvious as Arnold flew along (as opposed to the much smaller parallax effect of objects 20 miles away). >A variation of these arguments apply to the bird watcher's >observations. Depth perception is aided not only by having two >eyes, but also by the motion of the observer causing movement of t>he object against a distant background. In fact human depth >perception from stereoscoptic vision is only good to a hundred >meters or so. Beyond that, we estimate distance by moving our >heads about, judging the relative motion of one object against . >another. Most bird watchers that I am aware of definitely do NOT >bounce around some meter or so while watching birds. As static >observers, they are easily "baffled by optical illusions of >distance." Arnold was not a static observer nor an inept >diletante pilot. As I have written before, any modest motion of >a meter or so of Arnold's plane PERPENDICULAR to the geometric >plane of their flight paths would have made it easier to >distinguish big birds near the plane from big flying craft closer >to the mountains. Arnold did have a convenient and familiar tool >for crudely judging distance that a static observer would not >have. >Again I find myself in awe of Bruce Maccabee for being so patient >with another person who is arguing so poorly. It would be >difficult for me to repeatedly cover the same points with another. >person. (blush) OK, I admit it. I'm a truely "awesome" person <G>. However, I must admit that even my patience is wearing thin. And I can hardly wait for the debate over the Klass-Davidson meteor theory to begin.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Re: Was ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 23:51:23 PST Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 10:03:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Was ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 18:35:04 -0800 > From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > > From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] > > Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 11:18:24 PST > > To: updates@globalserve.net > > Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > > > Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 05:46:29 -0600 > > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > > From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> > > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > <snip> > > Hi, everybody, > > Either I did not make myself clear, or the whole > > ground of the discussion has shifted inexplicably. > > Let me restate my point: > > The issue is not whether there are unexplained, anomalous, or > > arguably paranormal events and experiences in the world. Few on > > this list would dispute that. (Probably just about everybody has > > had at least one weird incident in his or her life. I have had > > one or two myself.) The issue is whether Keel's "theories" -- one > > hesitates to use such a respectable noun to characterize what are > > in reality wild, even paranoid, guesses -- address them in any > > useful or coherent way. In my view, they do not. > > In mild exasperation, > > Jerry Clark > Hello Jerry (also Dennis, Mike and Everybody): > I support your discussions with Dennis Stacey regarding some of > the more theoretical aspects of ETH versus non-ETH theories from > a scholarly point of view, and am grateful for any resultant > knowledge gained as an observer. What I do object to are some of > the insinuations that I feel are being made, either directly, or > more subtly in the tone of the words being used, that only help > to undermine what little progress (if any) has already been made > in the non-ETH theoretical area. > I appreciate that you do acknowledge the acceptance of those who > have had "unusual experiences" that currently cannot be > explained. However, you then seem to deny the value of some of > the pioneering theories that try to explain this phenomena, by > pointing out the ineptitude of efforts being made in this area by > the few individuals courageous enough to investigate this > difficult area. John, Since occult theories have practically overrun ufology since the mid-1960s, I disagree that the individuals who propose them are either "few" or "courageous." > I don't think that there is anyone on this List who would deny > that both Keel and Vallee are not employing the most scientific > practices in their investigations. In fact, it would be difficult > to find a good example of any UFO investigator who employs > perfect or even near-perfect practices. I disagree. Not everybody is operating at the lowest level. Intellectually substantial work on aspects of the UFO phenomenon is not hard to find if one looks for it. Off the top of my head, I think of the research and writing of Swords, Bullard, Maccabee, both Webbs, Appelle, Sparks, Rodeghier, Chalker, Basterfield, McDonald, Hynek (at least the Hynek of The UFO Experience), Zeidman, Cashman, Rutkowski, and many others. For some quick examples, read any issue of Journal of UFO Studies, or consult the cumulative bibliography at the end of my UFO Encyclopedia. > However, in their support, it cannot be denied that > theoretically, scientific practice is far easier and "safer" > (from a peer perspective) when it concerns itself with the more > physical aspects of the UFO phenomena (ETH) as opposed to the > more non-physical aspects (non-ETH). There are tools readily > available to measure both physical objects and traces of physical > objects, and there is the comfort of a long precedence of > established techniques and well-argued theoretical perspectives. The importance of none of which is to be minimized. > When it comes to the more non-physical aspects of the UFO > phenomena, there seems to be great resistance from the UFO > community to acknowldge its possibility and research it further, > especially from those who have never personally experienced any > unusual events. This is quite understandable, and I would think > that many of those who have had experiences have been on that > side of the fence at some point in their life, especially before > they were aware of the number of other such occurrences happening > to others. However, I think that today, the volume of such > reports should be an indication that such occurrences can no > longer be denied. Far from "great resistance" to occult interpretations, there has been an appalling rush to embrace them. Keel and Vallee remain two of the most influential figures in the history of ufology. Nearly everybody on this list has read them. How many, on the other hand, have read Swords on the ETH or Rodeghier on E-M cases, followed the debate about the Trans-en-Provence CE2, or even know what the RB-47 case is about? > Therefore, there has been very little progress in what I would > call the "non-ETH" side of the phenomena. There are few, if any > scientific tools available to measure such things as apparent > "non-physical" manifestations and "out-of-body" type of > experiences. Psychiatrists have attempted to investigate these in > terms of various states of mind or emotions. Others have > attempted to explain them in terms of various understandable > events such as electrical, mechanical or chemical stimulation of > the brain. However, these excursions have not been able to > explain away all of the reported phenomena. Persons interested in these sorts of phenomena, whose relationship to the UFO phenomenon has yet to be demonstrated, ought to go to the serious literature of parapsychology and psychical research. Incidentally, I don't see parapsychologists and psychical researchers rushing to claim the UFO phenomenon as their own. All the claiming is being done by advocates of the Keel/Vallee approach in ufology. > So what avenues of investigation remain? Many researchers don't > want to even come close, fearing not only ridicule from their > peers, but also frustration in their inability to "measure" the > phenomena in any scientifically acceptable way. It is therefore > easier to deny the phenomena by casting ridicule on it, and > calling those who attempt to deal with it "paranoid", or > "nutters", or to call their theories "half-baked". This leaves > the field with little possibility for further scholarly > evolution. > So why you need to continue to debate their lack of competence is > beyond me. I'm glad that you understand that these men are not champions of a scientific approach to UFO study. Unfortunately, many of our fellows think of them as perfectly reasonable. Thus it is necessary to reiterate the point and to expose the problems with such beliefs. > But calling Keel "paranoid" and "half-baked" is not > only scientifically unjustifiable but does little to help advance > the cause. Actually, "paranoid" and "half-baked" are the mildest possible adjectives next to what Keel habitually calls those of us who presume to question his approach. For but one example, see his stunningly vituperative piece on "The Flying Saucer Subculture," published in the Journal of Popular Culture in the 1970s. There is no ad hominem to which Keel will not stoop when it comes to assassination of the character of those who fail to recognize his genius as the man who knows everything about everything. I have known Keel since the mid-1960s and for some years was quite close to him. Then I grew up. Meantime, since you criticize me for calling his ideas "paranoid" and "half-baked," you might be interested to know that several years ago he circulated a malicious tall tale which I heard about from my friend Peter Brookesmith, who was kind enough to tip me off. Keel, it seems, told a number of British ufologists that I am seriously mentally ill and have spent my adult life in and out of psychiatric hospitals. On hearing this, I wrote Keel and demanded that he retract this bizarre allegation. No retraction was forthcoming -- those who know John know he will not back down even from the biggest whoppers. While making no attempt to defend the hospitalization slander (as indeed how could he?), he went on to assert that he "knows" of my deep schizophrenia just from reading what I write. Not coincidentally, of course, some of what I write is critical of his approach. Which is all the proof of lunacy John needs, apparently. Typical Keel: if you don't agree with him, you're not just mistaken; there's something terribly wrong with you as a human being. In conducting himself in this fashion, Keel demonstrates his contempt for the standards of civilized discourse. I don't hate Keel, or even dislike him much. I do feel sorry for him. I also feel that he has been a truly unfortunate influence on this field, for reasons I discuss in detail in my just-published The UFO Book (pages 429-44) and at greater length in the forthcoming second edition of my UFO Encyclopedia. > Instead, I feel that more value would be gained if > investigators could help build on what has already been started, > and progress the theories into something that has a little more > credibility, rather than leaving this field perpetually > associated with "paranoids", "nutters" and "half-baked" > theorists, thereby continuing to scare off those who wish to > explore these theories further as possible starting points. I think that to the extent that ufology continues to tie its thinking and fortune to the likes of Keel and Vallee, it will be "perpetually associated with 'paranoids,' 'nutters' and 'half- baked' theorists." Recently, reading a book by an outsider, science historian Steven J. Dick (author of The Biological Universe), I was interested to see the same point being made in a discussion of Vallee's theories. > Undeniaby, from many perspectives, the non-ETH area will continue > to be a challenging area to address, and will require the > attention of investigators/theorists with the strength and > courage to withstand all of the initial rebukes and "jeers from > peers". But since it is an area that has hardly been touched, it > has great potential and will likely draw greater readership than > may be realized. Again, John, this area has been "touched on" again and again.It can be more compellingly argued that too much UFO literature has been taken up with the most extreme claims, and far too little attention paid to those cases from which solid data can be extracted. Ufology, if it is ever to grow up, has to be something other than the pursuit of scary stories. If we are to persuade open-minded scientists that UFOs exist as a class of extraordinary phenomena, we had better focus far more than we have been on CE2s, radar/visuals, and the like. There's no shortage of soft evidence which, however intriguing, in the end gets us nowhere. Give me one well-invesetigated RB-47 case over a thousand MIB anecdotes. And while we're at it, demonstrate to me that RB-47 and like cases are part of the same "phenomenon" as MIB tales. Occult theorists implicitly assume that (typically while deriding the former) without ever telling us why we should believe them. Cordially, Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Fireball fires up the UFO Crowd From: XianneKei@aol.com [Rebecca Keith] Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 01:14:47 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 10:12:40 -0500 Subject: Fireball fires up the UFO Crowd http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/ufo03i.htm "Fireball' fires up the UFO crowd December 3, 1997 BY ART GOLAB SUBURBAN REPORTER Scully and Mulder, look out. The sighting of a mysterious fireball in the sky near New Lenox over the weekend has drawn the attention of UFO specialists from all over the country. It also has become fodder for a nationally syndicated radio show dealing with the paranormal. But authorities are not ready to open an X-File yet and call in agents Dana Scully and Fox Mulder from the TV show. A search by Will County sheriff's police found no evidence of debris, and the FAA reported no planes missing or sightings on radar. ``We looked into it, and there is no aviation connection that we can determine,'' FAA spokesman Don Zochert said. But Tinley Park businessman and pilot Tim Janecyk, one of three people who reported the phenomenon to police, knows he saw something. He was driving west on Interstate 80 near Parker Road about 6:30 p.m. Sunday with his girlfriend when, off to the left, he saw ``a brilliant fireball descend from the clouds straight down.'' The object, the size of a full moon, lit up the clouds, trailing a column of smoke, Janecyk said. It appeared to be descending about 125 to 150 m.p.h., he said. ``It was too slow for a meteor,'' said Janecyk, a private pilot for eight years. Within 20 seconds, it disappeared behind some trees, he said. Janecyk called New Lenox police, who notified Will County sheriff's police. Officers investigated but found nothing, said Lt. Mike Moran. Janecyk also called the National UFO Reporting Center in Seattle, whose director, Peter Davenport, discussed it Monday for half an hour on ``Art Bell Coast to Coast,'' an overnight radio program heard locally on WLS-AM (890). Davenport described similar sightings near Kansas City, Mo. Janecyk also was contacted by John Timmerman of Lima, Ohio, a case investigator for the Mutual UFO Network. ``We're not suggesting it could be of extra-terrestrial origin,'' Timmerman said. ``It could be some space device that man put up there that decided to come back home. We're just trying to identify it and explain it.''
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Re: Solved Abduction Cases? From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:23:56 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 11:16:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Solved Abduction Cases? >From: DevereuxP@aol.com [Paul Devereux] >Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:00:43 -0500 (EST) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Solved Abduction Cases? >Mark Cashman wrote: >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >>Subject: re: UFO UpDate: Re: Solved Abduction Cases? >>Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:23:35 -0800 >I think it should be pointed out that the presence of folklore as >a binding element within ufology is not in itself necessarily a >negative factor. I wasn't thinking of folklore as somehow being >negative or as explaining anything away when I gave this present >round on the subject its spin. What *is* important, however, and >this is the point I was initially trying to make, is to recognise >that it is there, and the role it plays. And not to be in denial >about it. Hi List, Paul and Mark, Actually Paul has opened my eyes a little bit. There are folkloric elements in ufology. . Folklore has it that a UFO crashed in Roswell. The reality seems to be, according to Randle's 'Conspiracy of Silence', that there were two crashes, one near Roswell, one somewhere else. (I believe it was the plains of San Augustin). . Folklore is that Roswell was the "big one", with the best evidence, etc. Reality is that the crash near Dalnegorsk, Siberia, is so far the only one that is officially recognized by scientists as a crash of an ET spaceship. . Folklore speaks about a big government UFO cover up. In reality there are two cover ups. One is maintained by the reluctance of military officials who want to do their daily jobs unbothered by outside distractions. Such was the case with the Arizona sightings, which led to the silly flares explanation. The other is the real one, which is maintained by a collection of selected individuals from government and industry, somewhat like an old boys' network. One of this reasons the cover up doesn't break easily is that it operates outside the command structure of the armed forces and outside the democratic institutions. Another reason is probably that there is no real leadership within this cover up. Throughout the years the activities have fragmented. Another important point is that while the UFO community easily scoffs at government institutions who seem hesitant to be totally honest about a UFO case, the community itself has a total unwillingness to cooperate with the government. Belgium was a positive exception. Prof. August Meessen must be applauded for taking the right step: assure the cooperation of the Belgian military through calling the minister of defense. . Folklore is that the strong UFO cases are ET activity. Reality is that UFOs could be from the hollow earth, another dimension or from outer space. According to the hundreds of whistleblowers from the military, collected by CSETI, George Knapp, Linda Moulton and others, they are from outer space. Government documents indicate the same, individuals like Corso and Shulman of ACC do too. The ETH isn't proven, as Paul rightly points out. But the point is that we have to send an expedition to other star systems to prove it. Meanwhile the evidence for the activity of a non human intelligence on earth has been there for decades. They, whatever they are, don't announce themselves, violate air space, hover over atomic installations, sometimes fiddle with the controls of missile launch pads, mutilate animals and - to all appearances - abduct people. In that light I think discussions such as these are interesting only to bring some nuances in our understanding of the phenomenon. Ufology has folkloric elements, OK. But does that really matter? __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 'Fire Balloons' & 'Exeter' From: " Jerry Cohen" <rjcohen@li.net> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 06:25:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 11:18:51 -0500 Subject: 'Fire Balloons' & 'Exeter' TO ALL READERS: Those people that think "fire balloons" are the definitive answer to "Exeter, N.H. 1965" are cordially invited to examine this theory for yourselves by visiting the following websites: Larry Robinson's "Solving the 1965 Exeter NH Sightings" http://php.indiana.edu/~lrobins/howiextr.htm and my rebuttal to same: http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/rob.rebut.html This researcher strongly believes that the "fire balloon" theory for the majority of Exeter sighting is mostly "hot air." He also believes Mr. Robinson's report was just _a little_ slanted. All are invited to see which presentation makes the most sense. Whatever you do, don't read one without reading the other. Respectfully, Jerry Cohen Author: Oberg/Cooper rebuttals Website: http://www.li.net/~rjcohen UFOmind: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/people/c/cohen/ P.S. Additionally, those wondering whether the Tectonic Strain Theory (i.e. TST/plasma phenomena) and Nocturnal lights are the complete solutions to most UFO cases, are also welcome to peruse some letters between myself and Paul Devereux, one of TST's chief proponents. (especially "EL & LITS: Reply to Devereux #3) http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/people/d/devereux/ I think you will find that although the TST theory is probably expanding our scientific knowledge of earth science, it too falls short of explaining some of the excellent UFO cases on record to date. Paul's lack of ability to fit "Exeter" into his rationale is just one instance amongst many.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Re: UFO Database interest From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 08:45:55 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 11:36:44 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Database interest >From: galevy@pipeline.com [Gary Alevy] >Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 23:10:39 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO Database interest NOT! <snip> >After you have the Ultimate UFO Report Database what will you do >with it? It will be open for use by anyone over the internet. What they choose to do with it is up to the investigator. >Will it really prove anything that all of the databases of >sightings that have preceeded it could not? It will have the most sightings of any database including many not available for database use. It will be of historical interest too. >What is the objective of this effort that has not been >accomplished previously? Previous efforts have been limited by : 1- # of reports 2- little access to many people who need it 3- reports not in database form 4- wide range of database searching capabilities to find info not previously even hinted at. 5- monetary cost for use. >Will it take 5,000 10,000 100,000 sighting reports to achieve >what ever these goals are? The exact # of reports is not important. What is, is that there are many, if not all of the reports, in any form, all available in one place for immediate database sorting and use (including military, FOIA generated, and anything new added as it comes in.) I have gotten many positive responses from people out there who believe this effort is long overdue. Past database derived data has been limited in accuracy by the limited data available and have taken great effort to generate results. We hope to alleviate those problems. Joel Henry ***************************************************** Minnesota MUFON Webmaster Minnesota MUFON Web Page= http://www.wavefront.com/~jhenry/index.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 CURRENT-ENCOUNTER: Woman 'Falls From Sky' From: Kenny Young <task@FUSE.NET> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 01:02:28 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 16:49:22 -0500 Subject: CURRENT-ENCOUNTER: Woman 'Falls From Sky' Woman Mysteriously Falls From Sky The Associated Press Wednesday, December 3, 1997; 9:28 a.m. EST MIAMI (AP) -- A black-clad woman mysteriously fell from the sky onto a wall at an apartment complex. Residents heard a loud bang Tuesday and went outside to find the body had landed on the wall and ripped in half, said Detective Delrish Moss. A 20-story apartment building is located near the spot where she landed, but the condition of the woman's body indicates she fell from much higher, Moss said. ``We have no clue,'' he said. The woman was wearing a long black shirt and black tights and had no identification, Moss said. She was described as white with shoulder length black hair. Police estimate she was in her mid-30s to late 40s and weighed between 120 to 150 pounds. ``Right now we're still trying to figure out where we go from here,'' Moss said. ``You have to put together part of the mystery before you even start a direction.'' Police will try to identify the woman through her fingerprints. They were also calling airports seeking more information. An autopsy will be performed to determine whether the woman was alive before she fell. In May 1996, police said a mangled, grease-covered body found in suburban Miami was a stowaway that fell from an airplane's wheelwell. The same week, police said a body found in the water off New York City also was that of a stowaway who fell from an airplane. End of article -- UFO Research http://home.fuse.net/task/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Re: Clark and ETH From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:26:29 PST Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 17:43:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark and ETH > From: DevereuxP@aol.com [Paul Devereaux] > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:43:45 -0500 (EST) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Clark and ETH > Jerry Clark wrote: > >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] > >Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:15:49 PST > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Clark and ETH [Solved Abduction Cases?] > >> From: DevereuxP@aol.com > >> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:48:44 -0500 (EST) > >> To: updates@globalserve.net > >> Subject: Solved Abduction Cases? > <snip> > >...I do, however, appreciate the more moderate and thoughtful > >tone of the current posting, and on my end I apologize for past > >responses that may have sounded flippant or disrespectful... > <snip> > I appreciate the more moderate and thoughtful tone of the current > posting, Jerry, and I accept your apology. Be polite with me, and > I'll be polite with you. It was always that simple. And what about your apology, Paul? For me to accept it, which I will do happily, it must first be offered. Don't condescend to me, and I won't condescend to you. It's that simple. > <snip> > >>A small number of us have been doing a heroic job in raising > >>funding for field and other research, have involved mainstream > >>science, have already produced more than anecdotal results, but > >>instead of that being acknowledged, we are almost automatically > >>criticised or even derided... > >I will leave aside the issue of whether or not you are a > >"hero," except to say that most would feel this is for others, > >not you, to decide...<snip> > I love your technique, Jerry: even when you are not being openly > rude and hostile, you still keep wheedling away. I said the > effort was heroic (as indeed it has been), like a sculpture can > be heroic, not that I was a hero. To most of us, a distinction without a difference, but I'll let it go. As I've said more than once before, you are in serious need of a new rhetorical style. > But having said that, I do happen to think people like Erling > Strand are indeed heroes. And, for that matter, people like Hal > Puthoff, in carving days out of a horrendous schedule to spend > time accompanying me on fieldwork. I also think that people like Isabel Davis, Ted Bloecher, Walter Webb, Donald Keyhoe, Aime Michel, James McDonald, Dick Hall, and other pioneers of ufology -- who sought to bring rationality to UFO research and who all championed, in one way or another, the ETH -- were also heroes. Whether the likes of you and me are heroes, Paul, is for history, not you and me, to decide. > >>... a study of alien abductions without recourse to the ETH > >>reveals evidence amounting to proof as to what the "alien > >>abduction" experience actually is. Yeah, right. I hope that "proof" is better than that little anecdote you offered on a recent posting -- your much-vaunted, predictably anticlimactic meeting with what you characterized as an alien. Please tell me what this has to do with the abduction phenomenon. It certainly wasn't apparent from your account, even as you were making, inevitably, huge claims for it. > >Again, a matter of continuing discussion. The ETH has to be > >considered as one possible reasonable interpretation of a small > >number of well investigated, multiple-participant cases. Other > >explanations simply lack compelling explanatory power in these > >instances. > Not true (as far as the abduction experience goes). The evidence > that the alien abduction experience is a mind-experience and not > a physical experience is overwhelming. (And that's all I am > saying - I have explicitly stated that the ontological status of > the abduction experience has to be further defined.) And a case I > describe in the forthcoming UFOs & UFOLOGY book demonstrates that > even multiple-experient abductions do not have to mean a > physical, literal abduction has taken place. I look forward to reading your book, of course. Still, my point remains. The best abduction cases, usually those involving multiple witnesses and suggestive physical evidence, are more reasonably interpreted as event-level experiences and interactions with nonhuman entities. Which is not to say that such an interpretation is solidly proved. It's just that the other explanations, including yours, don't seem up to the task. Given society's fierce resistance to the idea of ETH visitation on any but a trivial level (as fodder for fringe groups, scary movies and TV shows, and stand-up comics), it is little wonder that even with ufology people seek earnestly, even desperately, for other, less disturbing explanations. It is, of course, defensible to look at all possibilities. It is not defensible to reject the ETH out of hand or to employ ad hominem rhetoric against its more serious advocates. > The tabloid end of ufology will hang onto a literalist > explanation for alien abductions for years to come, but there is > no excuse for scholars such as yourself, Jerry, to buy that > approach any longer. While it is important for us to be looking > into the ontology of the experience, that cannot happen within > ufology until leading lights such as yourself admit that there is > no future in being an apologist for abduction literalism. An "apologist for abduction literalism"? Since everything I have said on the subject has been far more qualified and modest than anything I've ever seen you pronounce on the subject, that is a strange remark indeed. If I am apologizing for anything, it's for open-minded consideration of the evidence. If you're apologizing for anything, it seems to me, it's dogmatism and self-righteousness in favor of beliefs you hold very strongly. > >At the same time, as I have stated repeatedly, there > >is no reason to hold a dogmatic stance at this early stage of > >the discussion/investigation... <snip> > It is later than you think. And is it still dogmatic to say that > the world is round? When does convenient intellectual > laissez-faire run its course? I'm glad that you have all the answers, Paul. Most of the rest of us, alas, are still searching. > <snip> > >>...(I am amazed that I have already made this deliberately > >> provocative statement without there being the least ripple of > >> interest by either Jerry or, apparently, more than a couple of > >> people on this list.) > >Somehow I have the sense that we're being set up here for a big > >anticlimax, but go ahead, tell the story, and let the rest of > >us judge its relevance. > Geoff Price got in ahead of you, Jerry.(See also my response to > Sean Jones.) I'm sorry if you think research is "a big > anticlimax". I guess that's why ufology is what it is at present. > I can tell you that the experience itself was no anti-climax. It would have been to me, if I'd been expecting more, which I wasn't. > >As I have said before, the ETH -- which I happen to like, by > >the way... > >.... has not been ufology's "dominant paradigm" since > >the mid-1960s. Anybody can determine that for himself or > >herself by reading this list... <snip> Get off the mountain, Paul, and try viewing the history and dynamics of ufology through something other than a narrow- focus lens. As I have written elsewhere recently, if ufology weren't so obsessed with non- or anti-ETH approaches, we would be hearing a lot less about Keel and Vallee (and maybe even Devereux) and a lot more about the RB-47 and other hard- evidence cases of the sorts that underlie the scientific case for ET visitation. > I have to ask you what planet you are on, let alone what list! Again, guy, remove the narrow-focus lenses. You've been living on the Devereux planet too long. > >>As a matter of fact, I would go further: I think that within > >>mainstream ufology anything that is not ETH-based in some form > >>or other is viewed as non-ufological, and essentially of minor > >>or no interest. Not even remotely close to the truth. In my recent book I discuss at length, in three separate entries, the intellectual history of UFO theory. I show how the ETH came to be eclipsed in the mid-to late 1960s, primarily by occult theories, and then by psychosocial speculations. You have a distorted view, I suspect, because of your antagonistic view, repeatedly expressed, of ufologists. Your mind is made up about who they are and what they think, and so you don't listen to them. You have an unfortunate habit of not listening to those who disagree with you; instead, as you did recently with Chris Rutkowski, you accuse them of being full of "hate", or something comparably unworthy. Personally, I wish the ETH were a larger force in UFO theory. I wish there were a large body of serious, informed writing on the subject, comparable to that Mike Swords (whose excellent work you continue to ignore), Edward Ashpole (a rare SETI specialist conversant in the UFO literature), and a handful of others have produced. Instead, ETs get linked to Dark Side conspiracy theories and contact lore, providing you, for example (not to mention Klass and other debunkers), with yet another strawman to beat up. > >I would like to know of a funded mainstream science > >investigation of UFOs and the ETH. I know the literature pretty > >well, and I've never heard of one. I doubt that one exists. > >The ETH has been the subject of hand-waving dismissal in the > >mainstream scientific literature but never of balanced, > >searching appraisal. One way to read your argument is that > >science's neglect of the ETH justifies its continued neglect. > Forgive me, I'm not quite sure what this statement of yours has > to do with anything I was saying. You're ducking the question, guy. > >> ALIEN ABDUCTION: I think we could set about raising the data > >> within ufology itself (it has already been raised outside of > >> ufology) to demonstrate that the alien abduction experience, > >> for example, is just one modest strand of a broader literature > >> relating to an extremely deep-seated human experience as old > >>as the human mind. > >So you believe. And others disagree. The discussion continues, > >as well it should. > My statement is far more than a belief - it is demonstrable. We > can provide more evidence that the abduction experience is a mind > phenomenon than the literalists can that it is a physical one. > But I fully agree with you that most people (within ufology - an > important qualification) do not think that. That, really, is what > I was trying to say: can we get the matter dealt with more > broadly within ufology (for ufology's sake - the work will go on > within or without ufology regardless)? What you know, Paul, you know. What the rest of us know, we only believe. It appears that the answers have eluded everybody but you. What a lucky man you are. > >It is a myth that the ETH dominates ufology.... <snip> > If you truly believe this, you are either in denial or are not > paying attention as to what is occupying the attention of > mainstream ufology today. Even the "occult" and "conspiracy" > folklore themes are attached to the ETH in one form or another. > It may not be the old form of "the" ETH, but the ETM is there > fully entrenched. It is not worth even arguing this point. I certainly don't pretend to know everything, but I do know, it appears, rather more about the intellectual history of ufology than you do. This is not a flaw in your character, but it should discourage you from making the sorts of sweeping generalizations you are wont to launch into rhetorical space. > <snip> > >...it seems to me your dispute is with all scientists who think > >ETs exist and could visit here, even if they happen to reject > >the idea that it's happening now. The ETH is so consistent with > >many streams of exobiological/SETI theory that you ought to put > >aside your unique obsession with ufologists and take on ETI > >theorists in mainstream science. > No - this is a fundamental error that is often made. You are > talking about the possibility of other life in the universe - > exobiology. I am immediately open to that possibility(though with > the cautionary thought that life might be even more precious than > we think it is). This is *not* the same issue as whether a > zoo-load of alien beings and variegated craft are visiting the > Earth or not. As far as these present exchanges go, it is this > latter issue I am addressing. Paul is simply out to lunch here. Whether UFOs are alien spacecraft or not, their presence is not a priori impossible, according to many strands of SETI theory. Nor is the humanoid appearance of their occupants particularly surprising; many theorists would say it is to be expected. Again, Mike Swords, whom Paul dismisses with a wave of the hand, cites chapter and verse on the lack of conflict between exobiological theory and the ETH. Anyone can verify Swords' assertions (richly footnoted for those who want to follow the literature) by reading SETI theory. SETI theorists who reject UFOs as spacecraft seldom show any serious knowledge of the UFO literature. Typically, UFOs are dispatched with a reference to Klass, Menzel, and/or Condon. I've never seen any of them mention Devereux's "heroic" work. by the way. That doesn't necessarily say anything bad about Paul, but it doesn't put him in the scientific mainstream, either. > >Actually, I agree and write as much in my just published The UFO > >Book. Only a small number of ufologists have formulated a > >detailed, comprehensive ETH. Most writers have patterned their > >ideas, and only sketchily, after speculations current in > >current mainstream science (I here exclude contactees and other > >extremists, obviously)... > Why exclude them? They have been an essential part of ufology's > history. I see nothing more "extreme" being postulated then than > the notions flying around within ufology now! This is hindsight > sanitisation. What you might think reasonable now, we may both > agree in our bath-chairs was "extreme". The trick is to see > what's going wrong *at the time*. In this, you are kicking and > resisting all the way. Ufology is *not* what you and few mates in > the upper mid-west think -- it is a rampant bed of rumour and > extremist thinking. That is what the bulk of ufology *is*. The > first step in attempting to enlarge the influence of moderation, > and an expansion of though in ufology is to accept that the > problems exist. It is no use pretending it is just a handful of > nutters on the fringe of ufology. While most ufologists might be > nice enough people, they nevertheless bathe in the culture that > we call ufology. As someone who has written the longest social history of the UFO controversy ever attempted (the second edition of the Encyclopedia comes to more than 1000 pages of small-print text alone), I find the above absurd and even boorish. No one has written more about "rumor and extremist thinking," or criticized it more harshly, or made more of an effort to understand it, than I have. I know of "rumors and extremist thinking" that Paul's never heard of. I know the deep historical roots (often grafted onto to ufology or saucerianism from outside sources, such as Theosophy or political conspiracy theory) of current rumor and extremism, and I document them in my book. The excesses are, of course, precisely what one would expect to encounter in a subject that has been relegated to the fringes. Paul's knowledge of ufological history is so dim, however, that he would have us believing Isabel Davis and George Adamski are essentially indistinguishable or that NICAP could have been a branch of the Aetherius Society, simply because these individuals and organizations thought of UFOs as having an ET origin. As a UFO historian I find especially fascinating the long struggle between sober ufologists and the extremists (contactees, Dark Siders, et al.). Paul, conveniently oblivious to this major and recurring theme in ufology, resorts to cartoonish caricature and insult. This is a man obsessed -- a guy whose "heroic" work has brought the truth to light, only to be scorned by un- believers and infidels, all suffering from delusions of a sort he is able to diagnose. It's hard for me to trust Paul when he's discussing something I don' t know about. When he's talking about something I do happen to know about, it's distorted beyond recognition. Given the fierceness, even fanaticism -- certainly the absence of modesty or of nuance or, at times, even of common courtesy -- in his rhetoric, it is tempting to wonder if we are dealing here with some species of true believer. (It is interesting, by the way, to note the rhetorical trick Paul is engaging in here. He wants ufologists to argue as much from their worst "evidence" -- the nut stuff -- as from their best. Even Phil Klass understands that it is the best, not the worst, evidence that is at issue. Maybe this tells us something about the weakness Paul senses in his own case. After all, if there is no essential difference between, say, the Socorro CE2/CE3 or the Nash/Fortenberry case on one hand and channelings from the Ashtar Command on the other, what possible hope could there be for the poor sap trying to make the argument against Devereux?) Paul, allow me to offer some advice: Can the self-righteous act and start acting more like a colleague. There's plenty of room for reasoned discussion and debate in ufology. Ufology is a pluralistic universe in which many intelligent inhabitants with a wide range of views reside. The insults, caricatures, and bombast of the Devereux style are not only tiresome but self-defeating. The rest of us aren't stupid, Paul. If your arguments, beneath the posturing and the victimology rhetoric, have merit, they'll be heard. At the same time, I hope you will learn to start listening to the rest of us instead of lecturing us. All of us, including you, have much to learn. Ufology is in its infancy, and your grand pronouncements notwithstanding, there are far more questions than answers out there. In the meantime, reasonable persons are going to disagree, reasonably. Trying one more time, Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Re: UFO Database interest From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 14:01:17 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 17:58:44 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Database interest >Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 08:45:55 -0600 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Database interest >>From: galevy@pipeline.com [Gary Alevy] >>Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 23:10:39 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: UFO Database interest NOT! > <snip> >>After you have the Ultimate UFO Report Database what will you do >>with it? >It will be open for use by anyone over the internet. What they >choose to do with it is up to the investigator. [. . .] >It will have the most sightings of any database including many >not available for database use. It will be of historical interest >too. >>What is the objective of this effort that has not been >>accomplished previously? >Previous efforts have been limited by : >1- # of reports >2- little access to many people who need it >3- reports not in database form >4- wide range of database searching capabilities to find >info not previously even hinted at. >5- monetary cost for use. >>Will it take 5,000 10,000 100,000 sighting reports to achieve >>what ever these goals are? >The exact # of reports is not important. What is, is that there >are many, if not all of the reports, in any form, all available >in one place for immediate database sorting and use (including >military, FOIA generated, and anything new added as it comes in.) >I have gotten many positive responses from people out there who >believe this effort is long overdue. Past database derived data >has been limited in accuracy by the limited data available and >have taken great effort to generate results. We hope to alleviate >those problems. >Joel Henry Joel- I agree with your goal, but I don't think it is attainable. You're making the assumption that all those who gather information are interested in sharing it freely with others, which I have found it not always the case. Many researchers, who make their living as a part of this genre, must sell their material to make ends meet. They are not likely to give it up freely to a public database on the Internet, but for the sake of your proposal, let's assume this isn't a problem. As far as I've been able to determine, every researcher I've met has had their own methodology in filing their material. This would have to be coordinated by those who put this database together, so it would likely result in the complete review of each piece of evidence and the establishment of a filing system that will meet the needs that are identified. A simple database in Access is one thing, but a database designed to index several hundred thousand records (items) and allow for multiple access across the Internet is something a bit more complicated. The Microsoft "dog and pony show" makes this type of database look simple, but in reality there are numerous pitfalls that one can get trapped in. This is, of course, assuming that an agreement can be reached on how the database should be organized and indexed. But for the sake of this exercise, we'll assume that the database has been designed and set up, and that all of the freely submitted data has been converted. There is still the problem of who will maintain (i.e. pay for and service) the WEB server and the Internet bandwidth usage. If there is any interest in this at all, the usage could be very high and the amount of material involved may require that a seperate Web server be assigned to this task. In addition, the database may require a seperate server to provide that information as requested. Bandwidth usage, meanwhile, may cost hundreds of dollars a month, which is an expense that would have to be met somewhere along the line. We still haven't defined how much material is to be included in this database. Will it concentrate on one facet of the genre, or will it include information on related subjects (i.e. cattle mutilation, crop circles, remote viewing, etc.)? Will everything be reviewed before it is posted, or will it be up to the reader to determine the veracity of the information. If it's to be reviewed, who will those reviewers be and how will they be appointed? If not, then what is to prevent a creative 11-year-old from writing up a good article as a prank and submitting it for inclusion to the site. If there is no check of the material, it would likely be posted. I will add that accuracy of the data will not neccesarily increase with the volumn of information included. Accuracy is (in part) impacted by the broad range of researchers and variations in their investigative techniques. What one researcher may regard as highly accurate, the next may regard as sloppy. This is, of course, a personality based genre. The goal of compiling information in one location for all to see is admirable, and to a limited degree that has been underway for a number of years. There are several major efforts now underway to gather infornation, but most of it is not destined for free Internet access. As I said, I admire your proposed goal. But let's not make this sound like a simple project, as (IMHO) it is far more complicated than it may appear and will require decisions that this genre has not previously been willing to make.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:09:47 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 18:17:09 -0500 Subject: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:42:05 -0500 (EST) > To: updates@globalserve.net > From: edwards@amigo.net (TIM EDWARDS) > Subject: NUFORC reports on the Northwest mass sightings > Dozens upon dozens of reports on the Seattle and Northwestern US > Mass sighting Nov. 14 can be found at: > http://www.nwlink.com/~ufocntr/ > Included in the reports is a press release by Peterson Field Air > Base, Colorado that a Soviet Rocket came down Nov. 16 NOT the > 14. A lot of these reports are very derogatory to the official > explanation of space-debris re-entering. > Check it out. > Tim Hmmm... going to the Orbital Information Group website: http://oigsysop.atsc.allied.com/sat.htm and downloading the weekly satellite report (satwk.html) a couple of weeks after the sighting and what do we learn: Objects NO Longer In Orbit: Internatl. Catalog Object Launch Decay Designation Name Number Source Date Date 1987-079L SL-12 DEB 25022 CIS 16 Sep 1987 30 Oct 1997 1994-029AM PEGASUS DEB 23991 US 19 May 1994 06 Nov 1997 1986-017LR MIR DEB 23929 CIS 19 Feb 1986 08 Nov 1997 1986-017JN MIR DEB 23691 CIS 19 Feb 1986 12 Nov 1997 1997-070B SL-12 PLAT 25046 CIS 12 Nov 1997 13 Nov 1997 1994-029JL PEGASUS DEB 24185 US 19 May 1994 14 Nov 1997 1997-070C SL-12 R/B(1) 25047 CIS 12 Nov 1997 15 Nov 1997 1997-060C FOTON 12 DEB 25015 CIS 09 Oct 1997 17 Nov 1997 1997-011B ATLAS 2A CENTAU 24749 US 08 Mar 1997 19 Nov 1997 Why look!!! A big ole Russian SL-12 Rocket Booster decayed on 15 Nov 1997. "Wait!!!" you say, "Them supernatural lights came streaking from the sky after 9:00 pm Friday -14- Nov 1997 Seattle time!" Right, they were sighted after 5:00 am Saturday -15- Nov 1997 Universal Coordinated Time (UTC). Well Hot Damn!! The most respected non-military source of satellite information in the world and the actual events agree. Also from the above brief list we learn that the booster was launched three days before decay. This tells us it decayed from orbit. The burning re-entry would be seen below its path over a third of the way around the world. It would have been most spectacular just before crashing to earth which appeared to be somewhere in the northwestern United States. It probably would have broken into several pieces and the densest ones would have lead a string of flimsier pieces across the sky. Sheet-like pieces would have diverted some from the path of the bulk of the booster. A brief (hopefully) description of how NORAD really tracks low earth orbit satellites. Really big, big radars all over the earth sweep the skies flapping back and forth zapping everything just like in the movies... BBBRRRAAAPPPPP, NOT... Sorry, wrong answer. Take a paper plate and cut it in half. Get your globe (ok, pretend) and tape one of the halves sort of up and down centered over Texas. See how this semi-circle pattern stays fixed in place. Glue a marble to a string and spin it around the globe. See how it passes through the semi-circle once each orbit. Now, tape two more half plates to the globe so that they form a triangle over the central U. S. Take your marble and spin it around the globe in any orientation you can imagine. See how it passes through at least a couple of the radar fans during each orbit. NORAD takes all the vectors of all the hits by these three radars and sorts them out to compute the orbital paths of all the objects they can detect. If an object decays and they are not paying particular attention to it, they may take 3 to 6 hours to notice it. True, NORAD knows in advance what objects are about to decay, but they don't know that it has actually decayed until it fails to trip the radar fence on its next pass and someone cares enough to inquire. (Phewww, brief enough.) In fact, the Orbital Information Group at the above page provides a sixty day decay forcast. (60da.html) If you look today, you will see that the list only forecasts decays through December 31 and that all decays are listed as expected on December 31. Even in the temples of technology, they screw up occasionally and software has bugs. I am tempted to ramble on for another couple of pages to explain why, for the next couple of years, decaying space debris will begin to feel like a constant rain of fire falling from the sky. Fortunately, I am restraining myself. I will give a clue though: Personal Sat-Phones. Bye... Ted..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 14:09:01 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 18:20:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:34:25 -0500 > From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> > Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Regarding... > >Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:39:08 -0800 > >From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > Ted wrote: > >The receptor cells in the eye have an angular diameter of 0 degrees > >1 minute plus or minus. etc... > Ted, > Using the same scientific formula, please tell us how large > Kenneth Arnold's UFOs must have been at a minimum, based on > Arnold's later claim that, "I observed, far to my left and to the > north, a formation of very bright objects coming from the vicinity > of Mt. Baker, flying very close to the mountain tops and > travelling at tremendous speed". > "At first I couldn't make out their shapes as they were still at > a distance of over a hundred miles". > James. > E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com If you would do "your own" homework, you would be able to tell me that an object with an angular diameter of one minute of arc would be some 46.5 meters across at 160 km. And before I could even explore the underlying fallacy implicit in your question, I would have to say what is so unbelievable about 50 or so meters? The fallacy is that you are saying that an object must have the same angular diameter as a receptor cell to be seen. This, of course, is not true. An object must only create enough contrast in one receptor cell from its neighbors to be seen. The angular diameter could be much less than one minute and it still would be seen. For example, a bright green dot only 2 mm across 1600 km away (0.00026 arcseconds) in the blackness of space would still be seen. We just wouldn't be able to tell whether it was 500 m across or much smaller. Two bright green dots 1600 km away would still appear as one dot if they were less than 1 km apart. As they moved more than 1 km apart we would begin to see them as two separate dots even though we still could not tell that size they really are. Stepping back from this diversion into facile trigonometry, I am still saying that, as the principle proponent of the significant theory generating this thread, you are not responsibly doing your homework. You have several accounts of what happened from Arnold himself, yet you apparently haven't attempted to synthesize a best-fit time and position chart over a reasonably detailed map of what might have really happened. I am sure that Bruce and others here would love to collaborate with you in doing this, sharing what they have already done and debating the accuracy of Arnold's estimated distances and bearings. This would be valuable to many here interested in this issue. You are also oversimplifying your discussion of the relative position of the plane and objects. From a fixed observer nearby small objects moving slowly and distant large objects moving quickly would have the same angular dimensions and sweep through the same bearings and make it impossible for the observer to tell them apart. This is a false model for what happened. The observer is also in motion. If Arnold did see the objects with a large aspect ratio and they were big birds, he would be so close to them that in a couple of minutes they would have gone from way ahead of him to way behind him even if they were flying in the same direction. This is the one unavoidable characteristic necessary for them to be birds that is not reported. If you are seriously proposing a bird theory, then it would be appreciated if you would do more homework. If you merely desire to discredit Arnold, then why go through all this work? Simply declare that it never happened. Say that Arnold was lying. If you are merely continuing this thread for the fun of holding a position that you may not believe in then please tell us and I will focus elsewhere. Bye... Ted..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Skywatch: Pappie Defends Col. Wilson From: "Skywatch International" <SKYWATCH.INTERNATIONAL> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:42:52 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 18:28:57 -0500 Subject: Skywatch: Pappie Defends Col. Wilson Dear Fellow Skywatch Members and Other Interested Parties: I visited the UFOmind site and find it meets the needs of many persons involved in the UFO field. What bothers me, is that some of it has become a means for cowards to slander others, namely Colonel S. Wilson. I wrote a letter to the UFOmind site (www.ufomind.com) and hope they post it. My letter follows: I think your site is an extremely valuable site, except that part of it seems to have become a sounding board where some persons can attempt the destruction of another's character without being held accountable for their vicious actions. I think that calling others liars, nazis, wayward shrinks, and being personally insulting, is just a wee bit below the normal proper levels of behavior. It violates the rules of successful mediation. Heck, I'll even say it sounds like children. I think actions by certain parties that are trying to destroy other ufo groups is rooted in prehaps their desires (hidden agenda)to make themselves the all powerful ufo guru, maybe to keep their little following, or maybe even an attempt to keep a cash flow headed towards their greedy little coffers. If some of these people, like the ones who go around speaking negativly about Colonel Wilson (or other persons/groups), had the skeltons in their closets rattled, I bet they would yell, "Foul!" I would like my comments here posted on your site. I want those gutless cowards who spend their time trying to destroy others (not just the Colonel), to know that we who visit the UFOmind site are not idiots. We know those accusatory persons must have some problem in their lives that they are not correctly dealing with. Instead of finding the problem within where it lies, they are striking out making another the brunt of their anger. If some of those poor mislead souls would spend just a portion of their time helping those who are in need, humanity would move up a notch don't you think? Why do some people, and you know who you are, spend so much of your time trying to destroy? Why do you not try to build? The power from accomplishment is much greater then that which comes from destruction. I hope that my comments are not a waste of time and that someone learns from this. I have spoken to the Colonel by phone, mail, email, and I am one of the few people who have met the Colonel in person. People are excited when they find we met and ask me questions. I will answer some of them here. When we first met, it was at a crowded resturant. I walked in, looked at all the people. I walked up to a man and said, "You must be Colonel Wilson." (Amazing how I was able to do that huh?) Yes, he appeared ex-military, however, there are those I thought were military that were not. We sit for hours, drank coffee, and discussed many things. He was like many of the other "legends" in the ufo community, part truth, part fiction, but still amazing. He told me he had cancer and had a certain amount of time to live. I carried that time with me, as I felt that if persons knew the short time, they would become unsettled. Maybe I should have told them, but then again, maybe it was up to him to tell who his wished to know. He told me he wanted to help Skywatch International get started, but that he wanted it to be managed without him. He wanted Skywatch International (SI)to be a ufo group that was willing to share information and work with other groups. He wanted the organization to be honest and fair in their dealings. Did the Colonel and I talk of many things? Yes we did. Why did he open up to me? I do not know. I do know that something about me causes people to believe they can confide in me. At times it is a blessing, and sometimes like a curse. I believe many of the things the Colonel related to me. Now when he took on this certain look, got a twinkle in his eye, and smiled this smile, I knew the baloney was about to start. He then said some things which I believed we both knew, the other knew, was bull. Just a little fun between us as we bonded. How much of the Colonel is baloney? Some of it I am sure. But I really don't need anyone to come around cutting him down. We all have our heroes, but if I were to tell you negative things I knew about George Washington, Ambraham Lincoln, John F. Kennedy, Elvis Presley, Ricky Nelson, John Wayne, Evel Knievel, George Custer, or another certain hero of yours, what do I accomplish? I rather tell you the good things that your hero did. I would like to see us raise ourselfs above the bickering, deceit, power plays, and destructive behavior, to that of understanding, caring, and helping each other. What ever you may think of the Colonel, what he started is grand. You will not destroy it. (END) Thank each and everyone of you for taking the time to read this letter. There are those of us at Skywatch International that are working on making this an organization that we all can be very proud of. But we cannot do it alone. We must al work together and be supportive. SI now has two addresses. One for membership and the other for adminstrative fuctions. We will be having an SI web page. The former SI page is now "The Colonel's Page." As you can see, we have a new email address for posting letters. There have been a few problems getting the mail out, but we are working on it. If you are not a member, and are interested in helping to support all that we are trying to do her, email me at; pappie@ix.netcom.com and I will USPS or email you an application for membership. It will soon be available off of my "always under construction" web page located at www.freeyellow/members/pappie/index.html All the work is done by volunteers, but it does take funds to operate the organization. As soon as our tax exempt status is approved as a non-profit corporation we will let you know! But you can join now and become a part of a new beginning of a new age in ufo groups. Fairness, honesty, and working together with a common goal. Sincerely, D. "Pappie" Michael Proud Member of the Board Skywatch International ******************************************************************************* SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL Adminstrative: 4757 E. Greenway Rd. Suite #103-84 Phoenix, AZ 85032 USA Memership: PO Box 801 Leander, TX 78646-0801 USA **************************************************************************** Skywatch International and this list service are not responsible for authenticity of posts
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 4 Skywatch: Skywatch Mailing List From: "Skywatch International" <SKYWATCH.INTERNATIONAL> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 17:00:24 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 18:30:57 -0500 Subject: Skywatch: Skywatch Mailing List Greetings from you're Skywatch List Operator... You may have noticed some problems with the list, we have been making progress on it and it will be back in full operation soon. To help us get this list under control please for now post only important messages that cant be sent another way. This would help with the mail volume while we work out the problems with the list. Thanks for all of you letters of support... Jim Hickman Executive Director of Communications Skywatch International ******************************************************************************* SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL Administrative: 4757 E. Greenway Rd. Suite #103-84 Phoenix, AZ 85032 USA Membership: PO Box 801 Leander, TX 78646-0801 USA **************************************************************************** Skywatch International and this list service are not responsible for authenticity of posts
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 5 White House Spokesman Stonewalls Clinton's UFO From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 01:15:10 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 00:48:28 -0500 Subject: White House Spokesman Stonewalls Clinton's UFO First found December 4 on the site of the New York Post. URL: http://www.nypostonline.com:80/news/1479.htm BILL'S UFO INTEREST IS SAUCER FULL OF SECRETS AT THE WHITE HOUSE BY DEBORAH ORIN WELCOME to the great White House UFO cover-up. All the president's men seem quite embarrassed by the revelation - from disgraced First Pal Webb Hubbell - that President Clinton asked him to use his top Justice Department post to find out if UFOs exist. After all, the president as UFO maven isn't exactly Clinton's dream image. Some might even find it laughable - remember how Dems tittered over Nancy Reagan's fascination with astrology? And so, White House spokesman Mike McCurry is doing a full stonewall - he refuses to say whether Hubbell is telling the truth. What is amazing - and appalling - is that the White House press corps is letting him get away with it. As Hubbell tells it in his new book, Clinton sent him to Justice with this mandate as a personal priority: "I want you to find the answers to two questions for me. One, Who killed JFK? And two, Are there UFOs?" Lest anyone think this was a jest, Hubbell adds: "He - Clinton - was dead serious. I had looked into both, but wasn't satisfied with the answers I was getting." In fact, Hubbell conceded on CNN last weekend that he was serious enough to ask about UFOs when he met with officials at NORAD, the North American Aerospace Defense Command in Colorado, which monitors satellites and other objects in the skies. "They said no," Hubbell reported. Presumably, this was one of the answers that didn't satisfy him. Hubbell ought to know if Clinton was serious. The disgraced ex-associate attorney general is Hillary Clinton's former law partner and was Bill Clinton's golfing buddy before Hubbell admitted bilking law clients out of $482,000 and went to jail. It's easy to see that Hubbell's revelation poses a big problem for the Clinton team. To confirm it would be to paint Clinton as a bit of a UFO nut (and JFK conspiracy theorist) and invite ridicule from late-night comics. But it would be dumb and dumber for Clinton aides to call Hubbell a liar. That would hand Whitewater prober Ken Starr a weapon, as he seems to be out to prove Hubbell is lying when he denies the fat fees Clinton aides arranged for him were really hush money. Besides, Hubbell is loyally insisting - despite a stint in jail and the risk of another one - that the Clintons did nothing at all wrong regarding Whitewater or anything else. That's not the kind of ally whom you want to tick off by calling him a liar. So McCurry did an all-out stonewall when he was asked if Hubbell is right in saying Clinton has a UFO fascination: "I am not going to respond to the specific things in books that are written." Huh? "A lot of people are going to write books in the course of the next several years ... I'm just not going to respond to each and every thing that occurs in any of these books," McCurry insisted. Oh, wonderful. Books are now off-limits - a kind of v-chip to screen out messy questions. Just imagine if Mayor Giuliani insisted he wouldn't answer any questions about, say, bus advertisements. The press would skewer him. Or imagine if Ronald Reagan's spokesmen had dared refuse to answer questions on books. After all, Nancy Reagan's astrologist popped up in - what else? - a book. Written by ex-Reagan Chief of Staff Don Regan, who was a known enemy of Mrs. Reagan. No one would have stood for the no-books nonsense if Reagan's team had tried it. But McCurry did, and only a few members of the White House press corps protested - everyone else just giggled or rolled over and played dead. Which does show you something about the degree to which the Clinton White House has perfected the art of stonewalling. The Clintons will be back in New York next week, of course, to pass the cup for still more money for the broke Democratic Party. Word is it'll be a unique Clinton husband-and-wife tag-team effort. First, on Tuesday night, Hillary Clinton is slated to star at a Women's Leadership Forum. Next day, the president passes the cup. There's also supposed to be a "message event," but no word on what it might be. That's the supposed policy event on which the White House likes to piggyback fund-raising trips. Copyright (c) 1997, N.Y.P. Holdings, Inc. All rights reserved. Reproduction in whole or in part in any form or medium without express written permission of the New York Post is prohibited.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 5 Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 19:02:30 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 10:05:54 -0500 Subject: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:09:47 -0800 > From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass Sightings > > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:42:05 -0500 (EST) > > To: updates@globalserve.net > > From: edwards@amigo.net (TIM EDWARDS) > > Subject: NUFORC reports on the Northwest mass sightings > [...] > Why look!!! A big ole Russian SL-12 Rocket Booster decayed on 15 > Nov 1997. "Wait!!!" you say, "Them supernatural lights came > streaking from the sky after 9:00 pm Friday -14- Nov 1997 Seattle > time!" Right, they were sighted after 5:00 am Saturday -15- Nov > 1997 Universal Coordinated Time (UTC). Well Hot Damn!! The most > respected non-military source of satellite information in the > world and the actual events agree. > Also from the above brief list we learn that the booster was > launched three days before decay. This tells us it decayed from > orbit. The burning re-entry would be seen below its path over a > third of the way around the world. It would have been most > spectacular just before crashing to earth which appeared to be > somewhere in the northwestern United States. It probably would > have broken into several pieces and the densest ones would have > lead a string of flimsier pieces across the sky. Sheet-like > pieces would have diverted some from the path of the bulk of the > booster. Are you saying, Ted, that there were typos involved in the dates of that report from Peterson AFB? In particular, in its sentence that reads: "The Russians launched a SL-12 (Proton) four-stage rocket booster from the Tyuratam space launch facility at 3:49 p.,. EST on Nov. 16." And in the sentence that reads, "The USSPACECOM Space Surveillance Network (SSN) tracked the rocket and boosters throughout the first three stages of launch, and observed, recorded and reported an object re-entering the Earth's atmosphere at 7:49 p.m. EST, Nov 16." As you know, the sightings were on the 14th. You seem to be saying that this US Space Command Release of Nov. 29th contained disinformation. Do you mean that? Jim Deardorff Search for other documents from or mentioning: deardorj | drtedv |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 5 Re: Solved Abduction Cases? From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:43:07 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 10:13:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Solved Abduction Cases? > From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, on 12/4/97 2:06 AM: > From: DevereuxP@aol.com [Paul Devereux] > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:00:43 -0500 (EST) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Solved Abduction Cases? > I don't think anyone is suggesting ufology is alone in this > respect - the difficulty is getting ufologists to realise that > they are dealing with folkloric processes at all! Mention > folklore, and there is this huge outcry. It is as if ufology is > to be thought as being above folklore. I think that what generates the objection are contentions that the UFO phenomenon itself should be considered folklore. The point I was trying to make was that the presence of a folklore does not in any way reduce the objective existence or importance of the underlying phenomenon. And we could get into classifying the different kinds of folklore that are generated around the objectively existent UFO phenomenon, but that probably is a discussion for another day or possibly another list. > >However, the odd thing about good UFO cases when we try to view > >them as folklore... <snip> > >There is, nonetheless, a "UFO culture". Actually, there are > >several UFO cultures...<snip> > Yup. Agreed. It's called ufology. Here's where we part ways. Ufology is not the UFO culture. It's important to be clear about definitions. Ufology is not UFO culture any more than astronomy is the culture of astronomers or climbing is the culture of climbers. Ufology is the study of UFOs. UFOlogists participate in UFO culture. That to me is the difference and the essential distinction. > At least consider the possibility, Mark, that there may only be > chaff in many instances (I assume you are thinking of folklore as > "chaff"). This would be incorrect. Folklore is not the subject of Ufology. The experience of the witness as related by the witness, plus any objective scientific measurements, are the subject of UFOlogy. The "chaff", such as it is, are the misperceptions of aircraft, birds, balloons, etc. as UFOs. I think that the generation of folklore around a case does tend to reduce the value of the case to the extent it embellishes the original account. This is the reason historical research going to original sources is so essential. For instance, on the neighboring Kenneth Arnold thread, we can see that it is easy to neglect the core facts posed by the original reports and drawings produced by the witness, at which point all sorts of absurd theories become easy to support. > And it is a matter of opinion as to whether the likes > of Kottemeyer are "distorting their data". For all I know, some > of the "researchers" you refer to whom you might consider as > paragons of truth may be those I would consider as distorting > their data to fit their own pet theories and beliefs. It is all > such a shaky business, y'know. Actually, it's not. That's why we have the original account. Any theory posed by anyone, pro or con UFO, must use all of the reported features with the same emphasis provided by the witness unless specific counter-evidence exists. An assertion that the witness is a liar or can't distinguish between a near flock of birds and a far flashing metallic object that shines on a plane from the direction of a snowfield, or an assertion that a witness can't tell the difference between a grounded hot air balloon and a large egg shaped object which indents the soil and burns bushes, or an assertion that a hoax kite with flashing lights present in the early hours of the morning in a rural location is the cause of a UFO report without the demonstrated presence of such a kite - none of these are sufficient. In short, we can tell if someone is distorting the data by looking at the data as presented by the witness and the data as presented by the theorist, and if any of the data from the witness is omitted, changed, or devalued by the theorist, then, unless the theorist can present a specific and valid reason to support such a change, the data is being distorted. > I think it should be pointed out that the presence of folklore as > a binding element within ufology is not in itself necessarily a > negative factor. I wasn't thinking of folklore as somehow being > negative or as explaining anything away when I gave this present > round on the subject its spin. What *is* important, however, and > this is the point I was initially trying to make, is to recognise > that it is there, and the role it plays. And not to be in denial > about it. Yes folklore exists in UFOlogy, it's no big deal except when we confuse it with the recorded facts of real UFO events. ------ Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at http://www.geocities.com/~mcashman - Original digital art, writing, and UFO research - Author of SF novels available at... http://www.infohaus.com/access/by-seller/The_Temporal_Doorway_Storefront ------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 5 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:46:18 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 11:17:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > From: galevy@pipeline.com [Gary Alevy] > Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 23:17:35 -0500 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > Sure there are reports of formation flights - read Edward J. > Ruppelt's 'The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects'. Not to mention : Project Delta: A Study of Multiple UFO Sightings by Richard Haines B003 An examination by a respected researcher and Fund board member of more than 400 reports of two or more UFOs seen simultaneously; 250 pages, illustrated, softcover $9.95 Fund for UFO Research http://www.fufor.org ------ Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at http://www.geocities.com/~mcashman - Original digital art, writing, and UFO research - Author of SF novels available at... http://www.infohaus.com/access/by-seller/The_Temporal_Doorway_Storefront ------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 5 Re: 'Fire Balloons' & 'Exeter' From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:34:05 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 11:17:56 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Fire Balloons' & 'Exeter' > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 06:25:53 -0500 > To: " UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net> > From: " Jerry Cohen" <rjcohen@li.net> > Subject: "Fire Balloons" and "Exeter" > Those people that think "fire balloons" are the definitive answer to > "Exeter, N.H. 1965" are cordially invited to examine this theory for > yourselves by visiting the following websites: Jerry, you have done some fine work. My compliments. There was one item that I noticed, which is also relevant. Robinson states: "Data about the distance of the object from the observers is inherently unreliable due to the fact that binocular vision is only good out to about 20 feet unless the object passes directly in front of or behind a known object." While he cites no source for this, a standard reference on optical illusions is Minneaert's "Light & Colour". LC# 54-10021 On p 160... "Street lights farther away than 160-170 yards seem at night to be all the same distance." This does not mean that the viewer cannot tell how far away they are, BTW. Minneaert also states: "The average uninstructed observer underestimates all long distances, e.g. a fire at night." And he describes the Von Sterneck calculation for correcting for under-estimation beyond 200 yards (600 feet), which is: d' = (cd)/c+d where d' is apparent distance, and c is a constant varying from 200 yards to 10 miles. According to "Incident at Exeter" the estimated distance was 300 feet. This is well within the Minneart distance, and thus would be perfectly acccessible to an observer. I believe that Robinson's claim is a common misconception, even among UFO investigators. Note that Minneart's information, backed up by research done on Von Sterneck's equation, shows that even beyond 600 feet, the distance estimates made by witnesses may be correctable. Some might claim that the distance to an object which is being misperceived, and thus which is not comparable to a known object, cannot be considered accurate. However, Minneart makes no such distinction and implies that the Von Sterneck calculation is valid regardless of what is under observation. Certainly the examples he mentions (fires, street lights, and distant city lights) are germane to UFO observations. I'd may also say that I have actually visited Tel & Tel pole #668 and looked out over that field. If hoaxers picked this location, they certainly were crazy. This is an empty location even in the daytime. The lack of a fire caused by these alleged balloons is, given the treeline, is very hard to explain. You may enjoy my recreation of the Exeter sighting, which can be found at http://www.geocities.com/~mcashman/ufo/report/650903.htm and http://www.geocities.com/~mcashman/ufo/image/exeter.jpg The image is based on my inspection of the site, and is also a computer model which uses the distances, sizes, and angles estimated by the witnesses to provide a good sense of the angular size of what the witnesses observed. (Note that the background of the image is NOT a site photo, however). ------ Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at http://www.geocities.com/~mcashman - Original digital art, writing, and UFO research - Author of SF novels available at... http://www.infohaus.com/access/by-seller/The_Temporal_Doorway_Storefront ------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 5 Re: UFO Database interest From: Jakes Louw <LOUWJE@telkom.co.za> Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 08:05:54 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 11:28:07 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Database interest >Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 08:45:55 -0600 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Database interest >I have gotten many positive responses from people out there who >believe this effort is long overdue. Past database derived data >has been limited in accuracy by the limited data available and >have taken great effort to generate results. We hope to alleviate >those problems. Joel I originally opened the thread entitled "Phoenix Lights, FTs, whatever", and it ended off from my side as follows: "What I'm getting at, and I'm sure that most on the list will agree, is that there is a requirement for a centralised, coordinated database that must be used for abductions, sightings, and other encounters and/or manifestations. Why? Well, there is a plethora of data mining packages out there, that can be run against MS Access on Windows or even Oracle on UNIX." I think you and I have a similar vision, and judging from some of the responses, there are many people out there that will welcome an international database. I've got a lot of ideas regarding the database design and data structure, so if you want to, you can mail me direct or we can keep the discussions on the elist so that everybody can have input. I'm easy. Good luck, and scream if you need help: I've been in the IT industry for 15 years on the OS side, and my wife is a software developer. Jakes E. Louw +27 12 311-2668 082 923 6144 louwje@telkom.co.za
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 5 Re: Skywatch: Pappie Defends Col. Wilson From: Rebecca Keith <XianneKei@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:39:35 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 11:41:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Skywatch: Pappie Defends Col. Wilson >From: "Skywatch International" <SKYWATCH.INTERNATIONAL> >Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:42:52 +0000 >Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 18:28:57 -0500 >Subject: Skywatch: Pappie Defends Col. Wilson > I think your site is an extremely valuable site, except that part of it > seems to have become a sounding board where some persons can attempt the > destruction of another's character without being held accountable for > their vicious actions. What about people such as the late "Col." Steve Wilson? Should he not be held accountable for things he claimed? > I think that calling others liars, nazis, wayward > shrinks, and being personally insulting, is just a wee bit below the > normal proper levels of behavior. It violates the rules of successful > mediation. Heck, I'll even say it sounds like children. I think actions > by certain parties that are trying to destroy other ufo groups is rooted > in prehaps their desires (hidden agenda)to make themselves the all > powerful ufo guru, maybe to keep their little following, or maybe even > an attempt to keep a cash flow headed towards their greedy little > coffers. If some of these people, like the ones who go around speaking > negativly about Colonel Wilson (or other persons/groups), had the > skeltons in their closets rattled, I bet they would yell, "Foul!" Pappie, who are these people you claim are trying to destroy UFO groups? Who wants to be an all powerful UFO guru? These claims you make are baseless. Heck, I don't even think they are rooted in reality. If people who make claims (such as "Col." Steve Wilson) would offer some documentation of their claims, perhaps skeletons would not have to be rattled. Maybe I read you wrong but you seem to be suggesting that someone should be checking up on people who have challenged the claims of Steve Wilson. Now that is childish! > I want those gutless cowards who spend their time trying to > destroy others (not just the Colonel), to know that we who visit the > UFOmind site are not idiots. We know those accusatory persons must have > some problem in their lives that they are not correctly dealing with. Pappie, this just makes no sense. No one would have to accuse anyone of anything if the claimants would just provide some documentation. All I see are people saying "Hey, this doesn't sound right." Some have said they can't validate the claims of Steve Wilson. That makes them evil? That makes them gutless? I submit that no one destroyed Steve Wilson, except maybe Steve Wilson. The man made some pretty wild claims and you have admitted that as well. > Instead of finding the problem within where it lies, they are striking > out making another the brunt of their anger. If some of those poor > mislead souls would spend just a portion of their time helping those who > are in need, humanity would move up a notch don't you think? Why do some > people, and you know who you are, spend so much of your time trying to > destroy? Why do you not try to build? The power from accomplishment is > much greater then that which comes from destruction. I hope that my > comments are not a waste of time and that someone learns from this. If you want to build, why are you starting a new UFO Group with Skywatch? There are many INTERNATIONAL UFO Organizations already in existence, such as MUFON, CUFOS, FUFOR, BUFORA, and numerous others in countries all over the world. What are those groups doing wrong that you and your followers think you can do better? Why not try to improve the existing groups instead of starting over. Don't be part of the problem, Pappie. Be part of the solution. Think about that. > He was like many of the other "legends" in the > ufo community, part truth, part fiction, but still amazing. What made him amazing? Who are some of the legends in the UFO Community Pappie? Who is part truth, part fiction? Why do we give people who are part truth, part fiction, the time of day? Why would pay attention to people like that Pappie? People in the field of ufology who are part fiction are a disgrace and do nothing other than clutter this field with wild tales that do nothing other than make us look like a bunch of idiots. Perhaps you are better off with you own UFO group. Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 5 REAL CANADIAN X-FILES RG24 V17988 HQC-940-105, Pt.3 From: UFO Joe Daniels <ufojoe@cron-2.mco.on.ca> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 04:50:59 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 11:43:56 -0500 Subject: REAL CANADIAN X-FILES RG24 V17988 HQC-940-105, Pt.3 I have thousands of Canadian Government Documents from National Archives and Department of National Defence (Canada) regarding UFOs and am creating an index of their contents. This is a complete listing of the *THIRD* "batch" of documents. If you are interested in getting a copy of individual documents or the entire batch e-mail me at ufojoe@cron-2.mco.net If you are missing the index for the first two "batches" let me know and I'll e-mail them out to you. If you are interested in getting the next index for the "batch" Email me and I'll put you on a distribution list. Updates are available at: http://cron-2.mco.net/web/capri * Special Thanks to Edward Greenop in BC for ordering documents at 25c each and helping me to continue the research. -------------------------------------------------------------------- INDEX OF CANADIAN UFO X-FILES From 1949 to 1964 Department of National Defence (DND) Intelligence, Sightings of Unknown Objects Record Group 24, Volume #17988, HQC-940-105, Part 1, T3291 NUMB DATE: Updated: Dec 4/97 by Joe Daniels ufojoe@cron-2.mco.net -------------------------------------------------------------------- CERT 10/11/83 Certificate of Authenticity C00A 10/19/83 Notice from Access Section C00B (NoDate) Title Page, RG24, Volume 17988 C00C (NoDate) "DEAD" C001 08/11/75 Memo Re: These files not be released until year 2000 UFO, SENNETERRE, QUEBEC, 07/21/55: C002 07/21/55 L. A. Campbell F/O Acting SIO Senneterre, Quebec Re: Project Second Story, Sighting Report Senneterre, Quebec, 07/21/1955 C003 07/21/55 (Page Two of the Above) C004 07/21/55 (Page Three of the Above) PROJECT SECOND STORY: C005 05/28/53 Squadron Leader G.C. Campbell for Air Officer Commanding Air Defence Command Re: Project Second Story a) UFO Questionnaire forward per Department Air Intelligence b) Directive issued by Department Air Intelligence on UFOs c) Elements missing from UFO Questionnaire C006 05/28/53 (Page Two of the Above) Directives C007 05/28/53 (Page Three of the Above) Directives C008 05/28/53 (Page Four of the Above) Distribution List C009 05/28/53 (Page Five of the Above) Reporting Outline C010 05/28/53 (Page Six of the Above) Sample Preliminary Signal C011 05/28/53 (Page Seven of the Above) Sample Written Report C012 05/28/53 (Page Eight of the Above) Sample Written Report, page two C013 05/28/53 (Page Nine of the Above) Sample Sighting Report C014 05/28/53 (Page Ten of the Above) Sample Sighting Report, page two C015 05/28/53 (Page Eleven of the Above) Sample Sighting Report, page three C016 05/28/53 (Page Twelve of the Above) Sample Sighting Report, page four C017 05/28/53 (Page Thirteen of the Above) Sample Sight Report, page five UFO, STRATHMERE, QUEBEC, TUESDAY, MAY 26, 1953: C018 05/26/53 Project Second Storey Sighting Report, Strathmere, Quebec C019 05/26/53 (Page Two of the Above) C020 05/26/53 (Page Three of the Above) C021 05/26/53 (Page Four of the Above) UFO, CHATHAM, NEW BRUNSWICK, THURSDAY, APRIL 16, 1953: C022 04/16/53 Project Second Story, Sighting Report Chatham, New Brunswick, 04/16/1953 Taken by Squadron Leader Campbell C023 04/16/53 (Page Two of the Above) C024 04/16/53 (Page Three of the Above) C025 04/16/53 (Page Four of the Above) UFO, FORT NELSON, BRITISH COLUMBIA, TUESDAY, NOV. 19, 1952: C026 12/22/52 RCAF Document Transit & Receipt From Department of Air Intelligence, Beaver Barracks For Group Captain D. Edwards UFO Report from Fort Nelson, B.C. C027 11/19/52 Project Second Storey, Sighting Report Fort Nelson, B.C. 11/19/52 C028 11/19/52 (Page Two of the Above) C029 11/19/52 (Page Three of the Above) C030 11/19/52 (Page Four of the Above) GERMAN BUILT UFOS: C031 11/18/52 W. D. Birch, Defence Research Board To: Department Air Intelligence, Room 2621 "A" Building Re: Memo 1603-3 (DAI) dated November 13, 1952 C032 11/13/52 Memo to Wing Commander J. Gellner & O. Fisher Re: File S-21-1-9, German Built UFOs C033 10/26/52 Mont Joli, Quebec To: Department of National Defence, Ottawa Re: German Built UFOs (English Translation) C034 10/26/52 (Page Two of the Above) C035 10/26/52 Mont Joli, Quebec To: Department of National Defence, Ottawa Re: German Built UFOs (Handwritten in German) C036 10/26/52 (Page Two of the Above) C037 10/26/52 (Page Three of the Above) C038 10/26/52 (Page Four of the Above) C039 10/26/52 (Page Five of the Above) C040 10/26/52 (Envelope for the Above) UFO, GOODFISH LAKE, ALBERTA, FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 1952: C041 11/12/52 Temporary Docket, Department National Defence S940-105 TD315 C042 11/06/52 Flight Leader Thompson for Air Officer Commanding To: Chief Air Staff, Air Force Headquarters, Ottawa Re: UFO sighting Goodfish Lake, Alberta C043 09/26/52 Sighting Report for Goodfish Lake, Alberta ALIVINSTON, ONTARIO, ARTIFACT, FRIDAY, OCTOBER 12, 1952: C044 11/14/52 Wing Commander Kusiar for Chief Air Staff To: Air Officer Commanding, RCAF Station, Trenton, Ontario Re: Alivinston Artifact C045 11/10/52 Director Scientific Intelligence, W.D. Birch To: Department Air Defence, Room 2621 "A" Building Re: Alvinston Artifact, File S21-1-9 C046 10/23/52 Wing Commander Kusiar for Department Air Intelligence To: DSI Memo: copy of letter from London and news clipping enclosed C047 10/17/52 Wing Commander Sproule, RCAF Stn, London To: Air Officer Commanding, Training Command, RCAF Trenton Re: Request to forward sample of Alvinston Artifact C048 10/16/52 Extract from Globe and Mail Re: Alvinston Artifact C049 10/18/52 Squadron Leader Nalty for Air Officer Commanding To: Chief Air Staff, Air Force Headquarters, Ottawa Re: Attached is envelope containing Alvinston Artifact C050 10/18/52 (Envelope for the Above) C051 10/18/52 (Envelope for the Above) C052 10/17/52 Wing Commander Sproule, RCAF Station, London To: Air Officer Commanding, Training Command, RCAF, Trenton Re: Sample of Artifact & copy of newspaper article UFO, ISLAND FALLS, SASKATCHEWAN, 08/20/52: C053 08/20/52 Project Second Storey, Sighting Report Island Falls, Saskatchewan, August 20, 1952 Several witness blue UFO C054 08/20/52 (Page Two of the Above) C055 08/20/52 (Page Three of the Above) C056 08/20/52 (Page Four of the Above) RCAF SIGHT UFO, MACDONALD, MANITOBA, 08/09/52: C057 08/09/52 UFO Sighting Report Three Witness Oblong UFO, MacDonald, Manitoba C058 08/09/52 (Page Two of the Above) C059 08/09/52 (Page Three of the Above) C060 08/09/52 (Page Four of the Above) C061 (NoDate) Handwritten Note from Defence Research Board To: Department Air Intelligence Re: UFO Sighting April 7, 1952 C062 (NoDate) (Page Two of the Above) UFO, SPRINGHILL, NOVA SCOTIA, 08/26/52: C063 09/05/52 Flight Lieutenant Gurney, Department of National Defence To: Chief Air Staff, Air Force Headquarters, Ottawa Re: Sighting Reports from Springhill, Nova Scotia 08/26/52 Eight Children and Seven Adults C064 09/05/52 (Page Two of the Above) C065 08/26/52 UFO Sighting Report Postal Clerk, Springhill, Nova Scotia 08/26/52 C066 08/26/52 (Page Two of the Above) C067 08/26/52 (Page Three of the Above) C068 08/26/52 UFO Sighting Report Police Constable, Springhill, Nova Scotia 08/26/52 C069 08/26/52 (Page Two of the Above) C070 08/26/52 (Page Three of the Above) C071 08/26/52 UFO Sighting Report Retired Miner, Springhill, Nova Scotia 08/26/52 C072 08/26/52 (Page Two of the Above) C073 08/26/52 (Page Three of the Above) UFO, TRENTON, ONTARIO, 08/21/52: C074 08/21/52 Flight Leader Nichols, Department National Defence, Royal Canadian Air Force, Trenton, Ontario To: Air Officer Commanding, Air Defence Command, Royal Canadian Air Force, St. Hubert, Quebec Re: UFO over Trenton Station C075 08/21/52 (Page Two of the Above) UFO, ISLAND FALLS, SASKATCHEWAN, 08/20/52: C076 08/21/52 TELEX: From WESCOM To: CANARMY, (Confidential) Re: Island Falls, UFO UFO, HAY LAKES, ALBERTA, 08/05/52: C077 08/05/52 Defence Research Board, Project Second Storey, Sighting Report Re: UFO over Hay Lakes, Alberta August 5, 1952 C078 08/26/52 (Page Two of the Above) C079 08/26/52 (Page Three of the Above) C080 08/26/52 (Page Four of the Above) UFO, BEAVERTON, ONTARIO, 07/27/52: C081 08/05/52 Defence Research Board, Project Second Storey, Sighting Report Re: UFO over Beaverton, Ontario, July 27, 1952 C082 08/26/52 (Page Two of the Above) C083 08/26/52 (Page Three of the Above) C084 08/26/52 (Page Four of the Above) UFO, MACDONALD, MANITOBA, 07/27/52: C085 08/05/52 Defence Research Board, Project Second Storey, Sighting Report Re: UFO over MacDonald, Manitoba, August 9, 1952 C086 08/26/52 (Page Two of the Above) C087 08/26/52 (Page Three of the Above) C088 08/26/52 (Page Four of the Above) UFO, LINDSAY, ONTARIO, 03/20/52: C089 05/01/52 Temporary Docket S21-1-9 TD#122 C090 04/30/52 Squad Leader Nalty for Air Officer Commanding, Department National Defence, Royal Canadian Air Force To: Department Air Intelligence, Chief Air Staff, Ottawa Re: UFO Report C091 04/20/52 Defence Research Board, Project Second Storey, Sighting Report Re: UFO over Lindsay, Ontario, April 20, 1952 C092 04/20/52 (Page Two of the Above) C093 04/20/52 (Page Three of the Above) C094 04/20/52 (Page Four of the Above) C095 04/21/52 Front Page of Lindsay Daily Post C096 04/21/52 (Part Two of the Above) C097 04/21/52 (Part Three of the Above) C098 04/21/52 (Part Four of the Above) C099 04/21/52 (Part Five of the Above) C100 04/21/52 (Part Six of the Above) UFO, RCAF STATION, NORTH BAY, ONTARIO, 04/12/52: C101 06/13/52 Temporary Docket S 21-1-9 TD#166 C102 06/11/52 Squadron Leader Campbell for Air Officer Commanding To: Chief Air Staff, Air Force Headquarters, Ottawa Re: Letter from 12 ADGp along with sighting reports and newspaper clippings. C103 06/11/52 Temporary Docket, Department National Defence C104 06/10/52 Squadron Leader Spector for GpCdr, 2 Gp Hq (AUX) Royal Canadian Air Froce, Toronto, Ontario To: Chief Air Staff, Air Force Headquarters, National Defence Building "A", Ottawa, Ontario Re: Sighting Report and interrogation in Toronto C105 04/25/52 Temporary Document S 21-1-9 TD#112 C106 04/18/52 Squadron Leader Spector for GpCdr, Royal Canadian Air Force Toronto, Ontario To: Chief Air Staff, Air Force Headquarters, National Defence Building "A", Ottawa Re: Sighting report and interrogation at Adjutant's office at 1 SD Weston C107 04/12/52 Sighting Report, Royal Canadian Air Force Station, North Bay C108 04/12/52 (Page Two of the Above) C109 04/12/52 (Page Three of the Above) UFO, PARLIAMENT BUILDING, OTTAWA, ONTARIO, 08/17/52: C110 08/17/52 Defence Research Board, Project Second Storey Sighting Report UFO sighted from Parliament Building, Ottawa by army officer. C111 08/17/52 (Page Two of the Above) C112 08/17/52 (Page Three of the Above) C113 08/17/52 (Page Four of the Above) C114 08/17/52 Diagram of Above Sighting UFO, MACDONALD, MANITOBA, 07/29/52: C115 07/29/52 Sighting Report "Unknown Flying Objects" MacDonald, Manitoba C116 07/29/52 (Page Two of the Above) C117 07/29/52 (Page Three of the Above) C118 07/29/52 (Page Four of the Above) UFO, BEAVERTON, ONTARIO, 07/27/52: C119 07/27/52 Defence Research Board, Project Second Storey, Sighting Report C120 07/27/52 (Page Two of the Above) C121 07/27/52 (Page Three of the Above) C122 07/27/52 (Page Four of the Above) UFO, OTTAWA, ONTARIO, 07/19/52: C123 07/19/52 Defence Research Board, Project Second Storey, Sighting Report by research officer C124 07/19/52 (Page Two of the Above) C125 07/19/52 (Page Three of the Above) C126 07/19/52 (Page Four of the Above) UFO, OTTAWA, ONTARIO, 07/08/52: C127 07/08/52 Defence Research Board, Project Second Storey, Sighting Report by naval officer C128 07/08/52 (Page Two of the Above) C129 07/08/52 (Page Three of the Above) C130 07/08/52 (Page Four of the Above) UFO, MIDDLETON, NOVA SCOTIA, 06/21/52: C131 06/21/52 Sighting Report "Unknown Flying Objects" by school teacher C132 06/21/52 (Page Two of the Above) C133 06/21/52 (Page Three of the Above) C134 06/21/52 (Page Four of the Above) UFO, ANNAPOLIS ROYAL, NOVA SCOTIA, 06/21/52: C135 06/21/52 Sighting Report "Unknown Flying Objects" C136 06/21/52 (Page Two of the Above) C137 06/21/52 (Page Three of the Above) C138 06/21/52 (Page Four of the Above) C139 06/21/52 Sighting Report "Unknown Flying Objects" C140 06/21/52 (Page Two of the Above) C141 06/21/52 (Page Three of the Above) C142 06/21/52 (Page Four of the Above) C143 06/21/52 Sighting Report "Unknown Flying Objects" C144 06/21/52 (Page Two of the Above) C145 06/21/52 (Page Three of the Above) C146 06/21/52 (Page Four of the Above) FLYING DISC, WATSON LAKE, YUKON, 07/23/52: C147 07/25/52 TELEX: Silver Disc over Watson Lake, Yukon DRB COMMITTEE ON FLYING SAUCER REPORTS: C148 05/21/52 RECEIPT to H. C. Oatway of Defence Research Board Re: Minutes of meeting on May 7, 1952 (Confidential) C149 04/30/52 H. C. Oatway (Secretary) Defence Research Board Re: Date for next meeting committee on Flying Saucer Reports C150 04/30/52 Sample Sighting Report for Defence Research Board's Second Storey C151 04/30/52 (Page Two of Sample Report) C152 04/30/52 (Page Three of Sample Report) C153 04/30/52 (Page Four of Sample Report) C154 05/10/56 Classification change to file D940-105 Vol. 1 DEFENCE RESEARCH BOARD COMMITTEE ON FLYING SAUCERS: C155 04/24/52 Defence Research Board, Committee on Flying Saucers Re: Minutes of meeting on April 22, 1952 (Preliminary) C156 04/24/52 (Page Two of the Above) C157 04/24/52 Sample Defence Research Board, Sighting Report C158 04/24/52 (Page Two of the Above) C159 04/24/52 (Page Three of the Above) C160 04/24/52 (Page Four of the Above) C161 04/28/52 Defence Research Board Re: Receipt for minutes of April 22, 1952 meeting C162 04/26/52 Minutes of Meeting on April 22, 1952 C163 04/26/52 (Page Two of the Above) C164 04/26/52 (Page Three of the Above) C165 04/26/52 Sample "Unkown Flying Object" Sighting Report C166 04/26/52 (Page Two of the Above) UFO, BARRIE, ONTARIO, 10/09/51: C167 10/09/51 Unkown Flying Object, Sighting Report Re: UFO, Barrie, Ontario, October 10, 1951 C168 10/09/51 (Page Two of the Above) C169 10/09/51 (Page Three of the Above) C170 10/09/51 (Page Four of the Above) C171 10/09/51 (Hand Written Notes on the Above) UFO, RCAF STATION, NORTH BAY, ONTARIO, 04/12/52: C172 04/12/52 Sighting Report Re: Two RCAF officers see UFO over North Bay, April 12, 1952 C173 04/12/52 (Page Two of the Above) C174 04/12/52 (Page Three of the Above) UFO, OTTAWA, ONTARIO, 05/01/52: C175 05/01/52 Unidentified Flying Object Sighting Report Re: Barrister sees UFO over Ottawa River, Ontario, May 1, 1952 C176 05/01/52 (Page Two of the Above) UFO, BURLINGTON, NEW YORK, 05/05/52: C177 05/05/52 Sighting Report Re: UFO over Burlington, New York, May 5, 1952 C178 05/05/52 (Page Two of the Above) C179 04/19/52 Canadian Air Defence (CANAIRDEF) To: Staion Toronto Re: Interrogation of Witnesses to North Bay UFO C180 01/29/52 Temporary Docket C181 01/22/52 Squadron Leader Campbell for Air Officer Commanding To: Chief Air Staff, Ottawa, Ontario Re: Attached is completed interrogation form C182 01/11/52 Squadron Leader Campbell for Air Officer Commanding To: Chief Air Staff, Ottawa, Ontario Re: Attached in report of UFO from RCAF Station North Bay C183 01/02/52 Squadron Leader Campbell Memo To: Commanding Officer Re: UFO Sighting January 1, 1952 UFO, RCAF STATION, GOOSE BAY: C184 11/18/51 Squadron Leader Tilley for Chief Air Staff To: Office of Air Attache, US Embassy, Ottawa Re: Request for information on UFO at RCAF Station, Goose Bay C185 10/15/51 USAF Major, Director of Intelligence, Daniel H. Paulsen To: Air Attache, US Embassy, Ottawa, Ontario Re: Air Intelligence Report on UFO, Goose Bay C186 ??/??/?? (Unreadable) C187 ??/??/?? (Unreadable) C188 ??/??/?? (Unreadable) C189 06/23/51 Squadron Leader Likeness for Air Officer Commanding To: Chief Air Staff, Ottawa, Ontario Re: Attached copy of UFO sighting in Montreal Area. C190 ??/??/?? (Unknown) UFO, GULKANA, 12/12/51: C191 12/12/51 Royal Canadian Air Force Message Re: Airline Pilot UFO Sighting, Gulkana, 12/12/51 C192 12/12/51 (Page Two of the Above) C193 10/21/50 Squadron Leader Lawrence for Department Air Intelligence Re: Forwarding copies of UFO reports C194 10/21/50 Squadron Leader Lawrence for Department Air Intelligence Re: Copy of UFO report on October 10, 1950 C195 10/21/50 (Page Two of the Above) C196 10/10/50 Bryans for Chief Air Staff To: Air Officer Commanding, Training Command, Trenton, Ontario Re: USAF investigation on UFOs C197 10/11/50 Squadron Leader Likeness for Group Commander To: Chief Air Staff, Ottawa, Ontario Re: Request for info on Flying Saucer, Aug 16, 1950 at RCAF Station, Chatham UFO, NEWCASTLE, NEW BRUNSWICK, 08/17/50 & 08/22/50: C198 10/04/50 Flight Lieutanant White for Chief Air Staff To: Group Commander, Air Defence Group Re: UFO reports from Newcastle, New Brunswick and RCAF Station, Chatham C199 09/23/50 Inspector MacNeil for Officer in charge Special Branch, RCMP To: Squadron Leader Atherton, Department National Defence Re: UFO Report, Newcastle, New Brunswick, August 17 & 22, 1950 C200 09/11/50 Directorate of Air Intelligence, Internal Distribution C201 09/09/50 Defence Research Board Memorandum To: Department Air Intelligence, Room 2621, Building "A", Ottawa Re: Acknowledge receipt of revised UFO questionnaire C202 09/01/50 Wing Commander Austin for Chief Air Staff To: Air Officer Commanding, Air Transport Command, RCAF, Rockcliffe, Ontario Re: Delay in Replying UNIDENTIFIED AQUATIC VEHICLE: C203 08/15/50 Group Commander Clements for Air Officer Commanding To: Chief Air Staff, Department National Defence Re: Sightings of Strange Boats C204 08/15/50 Submarine Sighting Report (Sample) C205 08/15/50 (Page Two of the Above) C206 08/30/50 Wing Commander Austin, Department Air Intelligence, Memo Re: Revised Questonnaire UFO, DARTMOUTH, NOVA SCOTIA, 06/30/195: C207 07/19/50 Captain Atwood, Director Naval Intelligence, Memo Re: Radar sighting of June 30, 1950, Dartmouth C208 07/19/50 (Page Two of the Above) C209 07/19/50 (Page Three of the Above) AVENT TO WASHINGTON FOR UFO STUDY: C210 05/11/50 TELEX to Air Force Headquarters Re: Accomodation arranged at Willard Hotel C211 05/10/50 Field Officer MacDonell Memo To: Squadron Leader Avent Re: Temporary Duty to USA C212 05/09/50 TELEX from Air Force Headquarters Re: Squadron Leader Avent to Washington for UFO Study C213 04/20/50 Department Air Intelligence Memo Re: D.S.I. recommendations on interrogation of UFO witnesses C214 04/20/50 (Page Two of the Above) C215 04/20/50 (Page Three of the Above) C216 04/20/50 Department Air Intelligence Memo Re: D.S.I. recommendations on interrogation of UFO witnesses C217 04/20/50 (Page Two of the Above) UFO, RCAF BASE, ROCKCLIFFE, ONTARIO, 03/15/50: C218 03/17/50 Group Commander Gibb for Air Officer Commanding RCAF ATC To: Chief Air Staff, Department National Defence, Ottawa Re: Sighting of UFO, Rockcliffe, Ontario C219 03/17/50 Wing Commander Millar, OC 414 P Sqn To: Air Officer Commanding, Royal Canadian Air Force, ATC Re: Sighting of UFO, Rockcliffe C220 03/16/50 Re: Sighting of UFO, RCAF Base, Rockcliffe C221 03/16/50 Re: Sighting of UFO, RCAF Base, Rockcliffe UFO, CAMBRIDGE BAY, OPERATION "BEETLE": C222 07/09/47 Royal Canadian Air Force (Cypher Message) To: Air Force Headquarters, Department Air Intelligence Re: UFO over Cambridge Bay (Operation Beetle) C223 (NoDate) Royal Canadian Air Force, Research & Development: 945-2-3 Re: Invistigation of Flying Saucers: File Dead C224 (NoDate) Royal Canadian Air Force, Intelligence: S-21-1-9 Re: Sightings of Unknown Objects: File Dead C225 (NoDate) Royal Canadian Air Force, Intelligence: S-940-105 Re: Sightings of Unknown Objects: File Dead C226 05/17/83 Notes: National Archive: RG24 Vol. 17988 File 940-105-1 CERT 10/11/83 Certificate of Authenticity (END OF FILE) .-----------------------------------------------------------------------. | From UFO Joe Daniels ufojoe@cron-2.mco.net -or- http://cron-2.mco.net | | 37122-769 Southdale Road, East, London, Ontario, Canada, N6E-3B0 | | Computer/Internet Consultant CUFORN: http://cron-2.mco.net/web/cuforn | | Marketing Consultant MUFON: http://www.globalserve.net/~updates/mufon | `-----------------------------------------------------------------------'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 5 Re: UFO Database interest From: UFO Joe Daniels <ufojoe@cron-2.mco.on.ca> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:22:30 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 12:15:41 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Database interest > > From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> > > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 14:01:17 -0500 > > Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 17:58:44 -0500 > > Subject: Re: UFO Database interest > > >Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 08:45:55 -0600 > > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > >From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> > > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Database interest > > >>From: galevy@pipeline.com [Gary Alevy] > > >>Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 23:10:39 -0500 > > >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > >>Subject: Re: UFO Database interest NOT! > > <snip> > > I agree with your goal, but I don't think it is attainable. I disagree. If enough people contribute a lot can be accomplished. > > You're making the assumption that all those who gather > > information are interested in sharing it freely with others, > > which I have found it not always the case. Many researchers, who > > make their living as a part of this genre, must sell their > > material to make ends meet. They are not likely to give it up > > freely to a public database on the Internet, but for the sake of > > your proposal, let's assume this isn't a problem. This is the biggest problem. However there are other sources. I have been assembling cases here in London, Ontario and have collected a rather large collection for such a small city by searaching local papers, Gov. Archive, etc. > > As far as I've been able to determine, every researcher I've met > > has had their own methodology in filing their material. This This is why I feel at text-based system would be best rather than any "database" format. A pure text system would be flexable enough to accomodate all formats as reports are typed in a they appear. From the text files one can generate any type of index or cross-referencing system one wants. For example I have a site at: http://cron-2.mco.net/web/sight.html Where sightings are stored as either HTML or Text and the index into those sightings can be in any form. For this sight it's broken down by area, they by date, but various indexes could be generated for type of encounter, number of witnesses, or whatever criteria, then as a fall-back measure one could search the actual contents for key words with a "grep" search or a custom program whatever language the platform supports. > > There is still the problem of who will maintain (i.e. pay for and > > service) the WEB server and the Internet bandwidth usage. If I'm sure several sites would be interested. I have a site and I would be. And it should be mirrored at several sites to cut down on volume and as security in case of crash. It could also be broken down by various geographical areas so that servers in a particular area are responsible for sightings for that area. > > We still haven't defined how much material is to be included in > > this database. Will it concentrate on one facet of the genre, or I would say include all information, as it is hard to determine now what a future investigator may need. For example in the early years of UFOs, abductions reports were refused by most groups and all that data may be lost forever. > > appointed? If not, then what is to prevent a creative > > 11-year-old from writing up a good article as a prank and > > submitting it for inclusion to the site. If there is no check of > > the material, it would likely be posted. I will add that > > accuracy of the data will not neccesarily increase with the > > volumn of information included. Accuracy is (in part) impacted > > by the broad range of researchers and variations in their > > investigative techniques. What one researcher may regard as > > highly accurate, the next may regard as sloppy. This is, of > > course, a personality based genre. That would be the job of researchers and not those maintaining the databases. > > The goal of compiling information in one location for all to see > > is admirable, and to a limited degree that has been underway for > > a number of years. There are several major efforts now underway > > to gather infornation, but most of it is not destined for free > > Internet access. As I said, I admire your proposed goal. But > > let's not make this sound like a simple project, as (IMHO) it is > > far more complicated than it may appear and will require > > decisions that this genre has not previously been willing to > > make. It would be an invaluable tool and something that must be attempted sooner or later unless we want this stuff relegated to people's basements forever. I'd be willing to help. .-----------------------------------------------------------------------. | From UFO Joe Daniels ufojoe@cron-2.mco.net -or- http://cron-2.mco.net | | 37122-769 Southdale Road, East, London, Ontario, Canada, N6E-3B0 | | Computer/Internet Consultant CUFORN: http://cron-2.mco.net/web/cuforn | | Marketing Consultant MUFON: http://www.globalserve.net/~updates/mufon | `-----------------------------------------------------------------------' Search for other documents from or mentioning: ufojoe | steve | jhenry
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 5 Re: Rare Planetary Alignment And Other Celestial From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:25:49 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 12:16:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Rare Planetary Alignment And Other Celestial Found at http://www.sfgate.com:80/cgi-bin/examiner/article.cgi?year=3D1997&month=3D12 &day=3D02&article=3DNEWS11720.dtl Tuesday, Dec. 2, 1997 =B7 Page A 1 =A91997 San Francisco Examiner Jupiter aligns with Mars - and moon, Venus and Mercury Stargazers have treats in store throughout month Keay Davidson EXAMINER SCIENCE WRITER A celestial parade of planets is enlivening the evening sky. On Tuesday evening, the crescent moon and four planets cluster in the southwestern heavens, just after sunset. The unusual grouping of worlds - the moon, Mars, Venus, Jupiter and Mercury - is an illusion. In reality, they are many millions of miles apart. However, they lie in approximately the same direction, which creates the illusion of alignment. "Watching from the Marina would be good," says Bob Havlen, a professional astronomer who is also executive director of the 6,000-member Astronomical Society of the Pacific in San Francisco. Tuesday evening's display is an impressive start to a month of astronomical wonders. Parents who plan to buy their youngsters a small telescope or a strong pair of binoculars for the holidays couldn't have picked a better time. Also ahead this month: *On the night of Dec. 8-9, the moon passes over or "occults" Saturn, the ringed planet. Through telescopes, Saturn will appear to wink out as the dark limb of the moon moves over it. Later Saturn will emerge from behind the illuminated side of the moon. Saturn will be "a wondrous target for telescopes, with its rings tilted 9 degrees," says the current issue of Sky & Telescope magazine. And the moon, of course, is a marvel for telescopic viewing - like a dead Earth, complete with mountain ranges and dried seas of lava, billions of years old. *On Dec. 11, the planet Venus will be brilliant - 16 times as bright as Sirius. Sirius is the brightest star visible at night from the Northern Hemisphere. That evening, newspapers and police departments should expect to receive excited calls from the public, who will inquire about the UFO toward the southwest. *On the night of Dec. 12-13, the full moon will occult the bright red star Aldebaran. *On Dec. 21 and 22, Venus and Mars, the Red Planet, will pass close to each other - just 1.1 degrees apart. By comparison, the full moon is a half-degree wide. On Tuesday night, the moon's slender crescent will lie very low in the southwest just after sunset. To the left will be an orange-red "star," actually the planet Mars. On Wednesday evening, the moon will hang just above Venus. Venus is brilliant mainly because it is perpetually shrouded in clouds of sulfuric acid. Also, Venus is the second-closest planet to the sun. The surface temperature of Venus is about 800 degrees Fahrenheit. By Thursday night, the moon will have fattened from a skinny crescent to a fairly plump one. To its left in the evening sky will be Jupiter, a "gas giant" swept by hurricanes bigger than Earth. All week, keen-eyed stargazers may see the tiny world Mercury - the closest planet to the sun - barely above the southwestern horizon. It's extremely hard to see, though, and may be hopelessly shrouded by low-level fog. If you can't see it, don't feel bad. One of history's most famous astronomers, Nicolaus Copernicus - who showed in the 16th century that Earth orbits the sun, not vice versa - lived his entire life in Poland without once glimpsing little Mercury.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 5 Skywatch: Filer's Files #48 From: "Skywatch International" <SKYWATCH.INTERNATIONAL> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:21:53 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 12:55:56 -0500 Subject: Skywatch: Filer's Files #48 Thanks for a great update George! ...JH Filer's Files #48 MUFON Skywatch Investigations From George A. Filer: MUFON Eastern Director, Dec. 4, 1997 Majorstar@aol.com (609) 654-0020 Faced with having to change our views or prove that there is no need to do so, most of us immediately get busy on the proof. By John Kenneth Galbriath NEW JERSEY Frank Moriarty, a MUFON investigator reports that on November 30, 1997 he and his wife saw odd lights over Somerdale, New Jersey. Frank decided to cook on the grill outdoors, when he noticed several jet aircraft passing overhead in flight patterns used by Philadelphia International Airport. Frank states, "At 7:11 p.m., facing west, I noticed a light or lights in the sky above our neighbors' house. This light seemed to be either a collection of whitish lights or a single white light of varying brightness across its width. Actually, this is what attracted my attention to it - the fact that I could not clearly focus on it. It was at an angle approximately 35-40 degrees from vertical, and moving from the north to the southwest. As it moved, I became aware of the very faint sound of a propeller engine aircraft, coming from behind me to the east. I briefly turned to look for this aircraft but was unable to see it due to the low clouds, although I believe I was able to focus on its vicinity by listening for it. Turning back to the west, at that point I realized that there was no sound emanating from this light. As branches of the trees began to interfere with my line of sight, I ran into the backyard for a unobstructed view. Several times the light/lights wavered slightly in course as it continued to move in a roughly straight line. The light/lights occasionally flashed or pulsed on an irregular basis, accompanied by what appeared to be a trail of light falling away from the main body straight down. The first time it did this I thought it might be a helicopter that had stopped and was turning around while hovering, but there was no sense of the object rotating - and once I saw the descending "burn off" I dismissed the helicopter possibility. The closest I can compare this to is that of a flare in the sky, flickering with burning pieces coming off. As the object continued southwest I ran to the house and called to my wife, who joined me in the back yard as the object continued toward the southwest horizon. We both later agreed that we shared the impression that this light/lights seemed to be getting lower rather than fading into the distance. The light went out before it would have passed from sight behind some distant trees on the horizon to the southwest. The total duration of this passage, from the time I noticed the light almost directly over the house next door until the light disappeared in the southwest, was roughly two minutes." Thanks to Frank Moriarty frankm@voicenet.com NORTH CAROLINA CIGAR-SHAPED UFO Two UFO sightings were reported last week in western North Carolina, about 275 miles west of Raleigh. The first sighting took place on Monday, November 24, 1997, in Lake Junaluska, North Carolina, N.C. (population 1,200). Two UFOs hovered over the Lambuth Inn, located about three miles from Highway 40 on the Junaluska Methodist Assembly property, local resident M.B. reported. "The ships were cigar-shaped and very shiny-silver-colored. They hovered in the sky in the area above the old hotel, and then disappear in the blink of an eye," M.B. reported. "At least three other folks have seen these UFOs. The objects merely hovered, not moving at all, and vanished as quickly as you can blink your eye." On Wednesday night, November 27, 1997, four people in nearby Clyde, N.C. (population 1,008), four miles south of Lake Junaluska, spotted a UFO "with red, blue and green lights" hovering near the summit of Chambers Mountain. M.B. said this sighting took place at 10 p.m., adding that there are several TV transmission towers on top of the mountain, located about 25 miles south of the Tennessee state line. (Email Interview) Thanks to Joe Trainor editor of UFO Roundup Vol 2 #46 at Masinaigan@aol.com. GEORGIA Case 93/12/1 MUFON/ISUR investigators have just finished meeting with a 34 year-old married woman who lives near Douglasville, 30 miles west of Atlanta. They were impressed by the witness and her husband's apparent truthfulness concerning a most remarkable entity encounter.. On an early cold fall morning in 1992 or 1993 the wife awoke at around two in the morning to find a strange light outside her semi-isolated home on the outskirts of Douglasville. Going outside she observed in a clearing a "mushroomed-shaped saucer" hovering only 40-50 feet above. From a recessed area of the bottom of the saucer she saw a shaft of white light going straight down to the ground. The narrow round shaft at ground-level blossomed into a several foot wide circle that illuminating the ground. Approaching the hovering craft she was told telepathically to, "Turn around." On turning around, she saw laying on the round a 3 1/2 to 4 foot long, gray-skinned alien. She was then told that the alien was sick and needed "warmth" and to be "fed soft food.," Picking the small "light-bulb shaped head" alien up, she carried it inside into her house. Placing the extraordinarily lightweight alien into her bed she tried to awaken her husband who was sleeping on the other side. With her husband not stirring, she laid down next to the alien who was now in between the couple! With a blanket pulled over all three of them, the alien communicated telepathically that it was not good for humans to spend too much time in close contact with him--she says it was male--as it would make them ill. Picking the alien back up--who weighed the equivalent of what she thought an insect that size would weigh-she put him on the couch in the and crushed crackers and made a "mush" of them with warm water. Tilting the alien up she spoon-fed him the wet cracker mixture. Around this point in her narrative Jim says she seems to have a memory lapse. The housewife next remembers being outside again in her bare feet and the alien going up inside the almost blinding white shaft of light. (She said she felt heat from the light beam. As she watched the alien disappear into the bottom of the saucer she noticed five more aliens on the ground standing in a single military-like file staring at her. These aliens, she said, scared her while the sick one didn't. With the alien's "levitation" into the "large dump-truck size" UFO complete, the file of aliens on the ground turned in unison and marched into the shaft of bright light, one-by-one. Methodically, they were levitated into the hovering saucer. Again a memory lapse occurs according to Jim, and the wife finds herself back inside her house watching the saucer shoot off at a high rate of speed. Curiously she says before the saucer streaked off it made a roaring noise much like a jet engine or rolling thunder would make. Her husband while not seeing or hearing anything did confirm to Jim and Mark that he found his wife in the middle of the night standing next to a window and staring outside almost as if in a trance. On reaching her, he asked , "What's going on?" Facing him she replied, "Didn'? His excited wife then went back to bed. On closing her eyes she immediately experienced excruciating pain. The eye-pain became so acute that the husband got up and drove his wife to the emergency room of a nearby hospital. The doctor on examining the wife's eyes, said she had gotten some kind of "metal" filings in them and why they were hurting so badly. (A follow up with the doctor by Jim and Mark is planned.) Since her encounter the wife says she has had severe eye, stomach, and digestion problems. She also claims that she has had many headaches. According to the couple, two puppies they had inside died strangely only a few hours after the wife's alleged holding of the alien. The couple raises thoroughbred dogs. The husband while not witnessing his wife's encounters says that she has talked countless times about her encounter since he discovered her standing by the window. He also says they want no publicity or their names used and that he believes his wife is telling the truth. He has confirmed rushing her to the hospital on the same morning he found her out of bed. The alien, according to the wife, had on each of its two hands only four fingers. Each finger, in-turn, had three tiny "octopus-liked suckers" at its end . The witness also says the alien's face had two large round black eyes and a small round mouth that showed no teeth. The entity's nose was small and almost recessed and its ears just really slits in the side of its head. The firmness and texture of its body felt like an inflated rubber "inner-tube." And at no time did any of the aliens verbally communicate with her. This witness signed MUFON general and entity case forms testifying to her experience and permitted Mark to video her at the site of her encounter. Thanks to John Thompson Georgia State Director, Jim Clifford and Mark Ausmus investigators MILITARY TESTING FLYING SAUCER IN GEORGIA Associated Press Fort Benning, Ga. -- The truth may be out there for UFO conspiracy buffs, but here military officials admit flying saucers have taken over the skies. The U.S. Army has been test-flying the CYPHER Unmanned Aerial Vehicle - a doughnut-shaped aircraft - for the past six years at the military post just outside of Columbus. CYPHER uses two sets of rotating blades that are mounted in the aircraft's center to propel the machine. Hence, giving the aircraft its whirring sound and UFO look. The aircraft's design allows it to hover over an area for as long as the fuel lasts. That capability distinguishes it from other unmanned aircraft currently being tested, said Mike Barnes, project director at the military post. CYPHER, which earned its name because of its ability to decode underground structures and secret tunnels, was created by Sikorsky Aircraft Inc. in Los Angeles. "The uses are absolutely endless,'' said test pilot Pvt. Brent Satterfield of Fort McClellan, Ala. "If we had a hostage situation, we could use an infrared camera (in the CYPHER) to find out where everyone is in the house, where the exits are, and then we can plan out a better plan of attack.'' The aircraft could also be used to drop off supplies to soldiers or disburse unruly crowds without subjecting pilots to danger, Barnes said. "We take these technologies and put them in the hands of soldiers and see if they can help them perform their mission,'' he said. But Barnes and military officials admit, it's the CYPHER's covert capabilities that make it even more appealing. Inside the CYPHER, a video camera and a navigation computer - similar to those used in cruise missiles - would allow the military to survey enemy territory and areas attacked by poison gas or other hazardous bombs. Sikorsky, which also manufactured the UH-1 Huey and UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters, also made room for a pilot onboard the CYPHER. During a test flight Tuesday, Spc. Jacob Terrell, 21, flew the CYPHER over a crowd of cardboard dummies and hovered 150 feet above the ground before releasing canisters of smoke - simulating tear gas. "It was just like a computer game. It's extremely easy to fly,'' Terrell said. If Army officials in Washington approve of the aircraft, CYPHER engineers say they can build the aircraft in a variety of sizes - from a 40-pound model that can be carried in a backpack to the size of a cargo helicopter. A price tag has not yet been set and officials would not comment on the price of the prototype. While military officials and Columbus police say they have yet to receive reports of UFO sightings when the CYPHER is tested, engineers and military officials laugh at theories fueled by the Internet and television shows, such as Fox's ``X-Files,'' that such technology is alien in origin. All Contents Copyright The Augusta Chronicle Comments or questions? Thanks to the Augusta Chronicle (Georgia) at http://augustachronicle.com/stories/103197/tech_ufo.html COLORADO Christopher O'Brien, a Skywatch International Investigator reports the cattle mutilations have returned to the San Luis Valley, Colorado. On November 30, 1997, a year-old, still-warm female calf was discovered dead from unusual circumstances just northwest of Center, Colorado. The calf was missing all the flesh from it's right side mandible, it's right eye, and a 10"diameter rectum coring that extended 18" into the animal. The crime scene was completely devoid of any tracks, (except the dead calf's tracks) footprints, blood, or additional clues as to how the animal was killed and subsequently mutilated. The calf was lying in 6" of fresh snow and the entire scene was devoid of any additional evidence whatsoever. No evidence of magnetic anomalies were detected around the site. Forensic tissue samples were obtained by this investigator, and are being sent to three separate Veterinary Pathology Labs. Videotape and still picture documentation was also obtained. The same morning, the reporting rancher also found a second calf with a bloody nose and claims a third calf is missing from the herd. The three animals were/are part of a small herd numbering around 38 animals. Magpies and crows showed an interest in the carcass, as did the rancher's dogs. However, after covering the animal with a tarp, no scavengers touched the animal. Saguache County sheriff's officers are investigating the "mutilation" report. Unusual multi-colored lights were spotted Saturday night around 11 p.m., 15 to 20 miles north of the mutilation site by four other witnesses. Two other motorists on nearby State Highway 17 spotted a large slow-moving "meteor" that broke apart before disappearing. These sightings are still being investigated. Thanks to: Christopher O'Brien and Skywatch International. PUERTO RICO CHUPACABRA Mysterious attacks on domestic farm animals around the town of Utuado, Puerto Rico, 40 miles (64 kilometers) southwest of San Juan, have triggered rumors of renewed activity by the Chupacabra or legendary predator "goat sucker." Forty-two large white rabbits, some chickens and a duck were found dead on a farm in Utuado on Thursday, November 20, 1997. The dead animals had twin perforations mostly in the stomach region and on their feet. Most of the perforations were triangular. According to researcher Scott Corrales, "One rabbit had its stomach split, an incision so precise as to only have been made by a surgical instrument or by an expert surgeon. No trace of blood remained in any of the dead animals." (Many thanks to Scott Corrales and Joe Trainor editor of UFO Roundup Vol. 2 #46, Masinaigan@aol.com. ILLINOIS NEW LENOX, Ill., Dec. 3 (UPI) _ UFO investigators from around the country are trying to determine what was a mysterious fireball that streaked across the sky over Chicago's southern suburbs. The phenomenon was reported Sunday evening. Pilot Tim Janecyk says he doesn't know what he saw as he drove near Interstate 80. He described it as a ``brilliant fireball'' that descended ``from the clouds straight down.'' He said it was about the size of a full moon and lit up the clouds. Janecyk said the object was trailing smoke but was moving too slowly to be a meteor. Similar sightings were reported near Kansas City, Mo. Copyright UPI. John Timmerman provided me with the complete telephone interview on this case. The sighting occurred at 6:45 PM and the object reportedly was moving vertically down and came through the cloud layer at about 80-100 mph! Thanks to Francis Ridge UFO Filter Center. NASA INTERVIEW Francisco Lopez recently traveled to Florida, where he interviewed a former NASA employee who worked in telemetry. He reports, "Be aware that many of the details are deliberately left out and some information could be changed to protect the identity of the interviewed. The person, who is finishing his Ph.D. in Physics told me about the many times they tracked objects traveling at speeds over 200,000 MPH (320,000 KPH), crossing in a matter of seconds the whole USA air space. Objects that changed directions, stopped and shot up and disappeared. He told me about the several times planes were dispatched to intercept an the interesting conversation they heard. Also about the interesting things he saw while in NASA, "a civilian agency controlled by the military." He told me about the Apollo program and the moon incidents. He attended a Richard Hoagland tape presentation about Mars resulting in a great internal commotion about the face of Mars. All the engineers in his section who were ordered to the conference were fired later. Government cars parked in front of his home very frequently. In the tape Richard Hoagland, shows very nice images from Mars and a good computer treatment of the images. The remarkable thing, seemed to be the finding of a pattern that, corresponded well to tetrahedral math, like the ones used for fluid mechanics. They applied the pattern and the location and correlated it to the patterns in the other planets in which, most of activity seems to occur between 19.5 N and 19.5 South Latitudes. A couple of weeks before a flyby to Neptune they were able to predict that an atmospheric disturbance, similar to the Jovian Red Spot will be in the planet at the expected region. They speculated about how come a pattern in a region of Mars surface can contain the necessary information to infer the other features in the bodies of the solar system. Eventually the briefing was put in a tape from the Enterprise Mission. Another interesting thing, was about the so called flying saucer crash in Southwest Puerto Rico. He was doing some consulting job when a group of UFO "researchers" using military clothing and good equipment approached him for a briefing on the crash incident. He went to the area and after examination deducted that a missile crashed in the area. Later, via a former colleague, he was able to identify a man who shot a video of the incident in which it can be seen, an apparent UFO followed by aircraft, which shot a missile. The UFO responded deviating the missile to the ground." Thanks to: Francisco Lopez d005734c@DC.SEFLIN.ORG) and Current Encounters. CRACKING THE BIBLE CODE This new book may be the most important book of the century. It is written by psychiatrist Jeffrey Satinover, M.D. who also holds degrees in psychology and religion at Harvard and a degree from MIT. In one sense it may have nothing to do with Ufology, but in another it may ultimately solve the mystery of alien visitors. I visited my local library and the book was laying on a cart of new books. As I walked by it mysteriously jumped into my hands as brushed the cart. In any case I decided to check out the book, since it was brand new, intriguing and free. I'm glad I did. The cover modestly states: "This book is the story of what may turn out to be the most important scientific research ever undertaken. The research began long ago as the speculations of mystics, but ended as science of the highest caliber. The reality it hints at encompasses both. The story begins with an ancient and mysterious tradition among the Jews concerning the Torah- the first five books of the Bible. This tradition claims that , unlike all other books of Scripture- and unlike any other sacred text from anywhere else in the world, at any time- the Torah- was dictated directly by God to Moses in a precise letter-by-letter sequence. It is also said that into the precise sequence of letters, there is encrypted information of a sort that only a divine hand could have placed there... Cracking the Bible Code is the story of the codes and the people behind them. The recent scientific discovery that precise descriptions of world-shaking events seem to be encoded into the first five books of the Bible has captured the world's attention. No one in ancient times could have had such knowledge-from what grew in the Garden of Eden to details of the Gulf War. It predicts the dates of attacks of Iraqi Scud missiles on Israel. It specifically identifies the word Scud and the date of attack. It tells of the date and the name of the assassin of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat. The names of great rabbis through history. The author shows that no individual could have written such complex codes, therefore divine intervention is likely? If the codes are proved to be genuine-and some of the world's greatest minds and largest computers have been unable to disprove them-they would be tantamount to scientific proof of the existence of God (or at least of intelligence far greater than our own.) This is a story of epic scope in which world history, international intrigue, ancient wisdom, and cutting-edge science converge. Only today with powerful computers have mathematicians and scientists been able to partially break the code. The very basis of human science may be undermined by this book. Where science assumes evolution is by chance, that mankind's existence is by accident, this book proves God (or at least the writers of the Torah) knew 2,000-3,000 years ago what the future would be. Further, God planned and arranged our very existence and knew how the last several thousand years of human history would develop. Suddenly, science is in the strange position of proving that faith is more important than science itself and there is a God after all. Obviously it is mind blowing that the book of Genesis contains meaningful references to modern day individuals. Essentially, the codes prove the validity of Genesis, a book that states, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Editors note: As more information is decoded in the first five books of the Bible we will hear allot more, but I wonder if the codes will explain the mystery of UFOs? If you have a UFO news or comments, please, e-mail it to: Majorstar@aol.com. ******************************************************************************* SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL Administrative: 4757 E. Greenway Rd. Suite #103-84 Phoenix, AZ 85032 USA Membership: PO Box 801 Leander, TX 78646-0801 USA **************************************************************************** Skywatch International and this list service are not responsible for authenticity of posts Search for other documents from or mentioning: majorstar | frankm |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 5 Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:08:18 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 13:06:34 -0500 Subject: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c >From: XianneKei@aol.com [Rebecca Keith] >Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:12:01 -0500 (EST) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c Hi Rebecca, >Perhaps limiting ourselves to a discussion of FACTS and not >speculations about ultraterrestrials, etc., would be a good place >to start. <g> I see a problem in determining just what the facts are, particularly in the more unusual cases. We know that there is a very high noise to signal ratio in UFO reports. Filtering out the noise seems to be particularly difficult in this field, but we do need to begin doing so. As an example, even if we accept that people are being abducted by "aliens", we must exercise great care in accepting as fact anything these "aliens" tell or present to their captive audiences. I see no evidence that they are ever telling the truth. >I'm curious Bob, how would we go about steering away from the >religious aspects that crop up from time to time? >I'm serious. I know you are serious. That's why I like you. You have a real desire to get to the bottom of things and a low tolerance for bullshit, no matter how exalted the source. How to steer away from religious aspects? That's a tough one. I'm not necessarily arguing that we should. Many people come away from UFO encounters with changes, and sometimes these could be classed as "religious", "spiritual", etc. That seems to be part and parcel of the whole thing. But, I am against those who try to turn this into a new organized religion and appoint themselves as priests. Among people we know I would class Delores Cannon (spelling???) and Bob Dean as two very different gurus, each preaching their own new religion, and looking for followers. You have seen the wide-eyed people at the conferences. I realized at my first conference that I could have "followers", "groupies", "cultists", if I wanted just by spouting a convincing line. That scared the hell out of me!!! It's just too easy. There are just too many people with no real lives looking for someone, anyone, to plug up the holes. I decided then that I was not going to play that game. Tempting??? Yes, but also terribly dangerous. We both know that there is a truth of some sort hidden behind this UFO smokescreen. I don't know what it is. I'm pretty sure you don't know what it is. Bob Dean certainly hasn't got a clue, and neither does Ms. Cannon. Wendelle, much as I love midnight bull sessions with him, doesn't know. Mike Hesemann, Philip Mantle, Theresa Carlson, Ted Phillips, etc. etc. etc. don't know. I'd like to find out what is behind the mask. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 5 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:14:49 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 13:07:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony >Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 00:39:13 -0500 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >(blush) OK, I admit it. I'm a truely "awesome" person <G>. >However, I must admit that even my patience is wearing thin. >And I can hardly wait for the debate over the Klass-Davidson >meteor theory to begin. Hey Bruce, And you haven't even addressed my pterodactyl theory??? Does that mean you have no answer to it? You have to admit that it makes a lot more sense than _pelicanus eastoni_. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 5 Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:19:50 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 13:41:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) Jerome Clark wrote: >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerry Clark] >Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:40:19 PST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) >> From: DevereuxP@aol.com [Paul Devereux] >> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:47:43 -0500 (EST) >> To: updates@globalserve.net >> Subject: whatever >>>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA> >>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Clark and ETH (and ELs) >>>To: updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto) >>>Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:16:12 -0600 (CST) >> Yes, well... why not? I get on delightfully with many people. >> Just because I challenge the likes of you and Jerome Clark >>doesn't make me a demon, even if I am demonised by Jerry and, >>sometimes, by you. Those demons are in your heads, not here at >>this keyboard. >> Regards, >> Paul >Paul, >Reading something like the above, one doesn't know >whether to laugh or to cry. Just a couple of days ago >you spoke of yourself as a hero. Now you tell us you're >a victim. Are we to admire your courage or to pity your >persecution? >As I have said before, my friend, you need a new >rhetorical style. If you truly believe that those of us >who simply find your arguments unpersuasive are >"demonizing" you or are (as you implied in a recent >posting to Chris Rutkowski) full of hate, it's not just >your theories that are in serious trouble. You're >sounding less and less like a researcher/colleague >and more and more like a prophet whose unceasing >complaint is that he has not received the honor and >adoration that are his due. Sort of, I fear, like a >St. Paul the Baptist. >C'mon, guy. Lighten up! >Jerry Clark My Dear Jerome, a) Heroic: in the sense of "monumental", as per my previous posting to you. b) Demonisation: the trouble is that you not only disagree but *denigrate* at the same time. The exchange between you and Tom King (I think his name was), for instance, resulted in someone who would have been a welcome addition to this list being driven away because of your behaviour. And while we are on this topic, I want to mention your insulting posture towards John Keel. He may not be a scholar in the sense you would approve, and I accept that, but that doesn't justify you labelling his work as being "half-baked" and the other even more derogatory terms you used. I tell you, one of my joys of popping down to Manhattan is the chance of meeting up with the old war horse. Neither you nor I may agree with his conclusions about "ultra-terrestrials", but as another member of this list has pointed out, it was brave of him to move into the spheres of this desperately entangled subject area the way he did. Also, his thoughts on "soft" objects pre-figured earth lights, which he has personally witnessed, and he made some useful observations about "window" areas, and more. He may not have the intellectual tightness you admire, Jerry (but do not always display yourself), or come to the conclusions which you approve of, but he has a measure of wisdom and experience, and deserves respect. If fact, it would be pleasing to see you showing a bit more respect all round than you tend to do, Jerry. Regards, Paul Search for other documents from or mentioning: devereuxp | clark |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 5 Re: Solved Abduction Cases? From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:23:29 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 13:44:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Solved Abduction Cases? Jerry Clark wrote: >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] >Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:24:34 PST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Solved Abduction Cases? >> From: DevereuxP@aol.com [Paul Devereux] >> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:50:16 -0500 (EST) >> To: updates@globalserve.net >> Subject: Solved Abduction Cases? >> Dear List, >> About a week back, Jerome Clark made an intervention in my >> exchange with Sean Jones concerning folklore and ufology, but >> I've accidentally managed to banish it into the ether! >> Anyhow... >> Dear Jerry, >> I can only take your intervention as meaning that you >>literally believe that an alien planetoid-sized craft did >>accompany the comet Hale-Bopp, and that all that is told about >>Grays and Roswell, etc., is the literal truth. No storytelling, >>hyping, mytholigising of past events, and the rest that makes >>up the stuff of folklore. >> Thank you. It was an enlightening insight into the state of >>your ufological thinking. >> Best wishes, >> Paul >Hi, Paul, >Sorry, I couldn't resist the opportunity to tweak you. >It seemed to me that you were using the word "folklore" >as if it held some meaning unique to ufology, and >specifically as a polite way of characterizing all >opinions and phenomena not to your liking. >Folklore applies to all aspects of human life. To >assert that there is folklore about UFOs is about as >enlightening as offering the observation that in all >communities there is gossip. >Cheers and (if you are in the USA) best Thanksgiving >wishes, >Jerry Dear Jerry, Oh, I see - more of your playful tweaking! I agree with you that folklore is not unique to ufology, but please understand it would be would be easier for some of us to spot when you are only tweaking if you had not initially been so hostile and defensive when the issue of folklore was raised in the first place, way back when! The importance of raising the folklore issue is that it is clear that many people within ufology are taking some of the folklore for being factual, descriptive information. The presence of the folkore needs to be more widely acknowledged so its workings within the flux of ufology can be better perceived. Thank you for your Thanskgiving good wishes - I had an excellent one in this marvellous, generous and friendly country. And when both of us are next over the other side of the Pond, I'll have a jar of one of those brews you (so wisely) admire on the bar waiting for you. Regards, Paul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 5 Re: That Ol' Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:35:59 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 13:51:53 -0500 Subject: Re: That Ol' Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis Jerry Clark wrote: >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] >Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 17:44:54 PST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: That Ol' Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis >> From: DevereuxP@aol.com [Paul Devereux] >> Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 09:15:19 -0500 (EST) >> To: updates@globalserve.net >> Subject: That Ol' Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis >> explained by some notion of spontaneous time travel (past and >> future memories, if you like) - or temporally-'loose' imagery >> of some kind. >Oh, dear. Of course the evidence for these sorts of loopy >"explanations" is somewhere between nil and nonexistent, and >they're interesting only because they come from somebody who >routinely alleges that the ETH has no basis in evidence. You >have to decide, Paul, whether you want to be a scientist or a >mystic. It seems to me that you're blurring the distinction all >the time. Jerry, There you go again, not merely disagreeing, but denigrating ("loopy"). I am sure I am no more loopy than you, and as intelligent and scholarly as you to boot. In this particular instance (taken out of context here as it so carefully is), I was not putting forward a developed theory but simply mentioning another way to approach the problem of anomalous things-seen-the-sky as an alternative to the ETH. In particular, I was concerned to make the point that what I and a school-friend saw was an airship of early twentieth-century design. This really happened, and I do not see how the ETH could be of use in explaining the sighting. So I suggested that perhaps we are not seeing extra-terrestrial craft but transient temporal displacements from both past and future. (How would *you* explain the airship in ETH terms?) This is no less a proven possibility than is the ETH, I'd remind you. But it was, nevertheless, an off-the-top-of-the-head example of another approach for the sake of the point I was trying to make. If I was to get serious about this type of explanation, I'd invoke non-locality, Bell's Theorem , etc., and other matters currently exercising the thinking of some serious scientists, Jerry. If I had the time to explore this I would, just to show you that it is easy to fashion a notion as convincing as anything put forward under the banner of the ETH. In fact, this is the sort of thing I was hoping might develop in an ET-FREE period of discussion on this list. But, of course, you dismissed that proposal, too. >> The mental state or states I am discussing are also - *in >>part*- the subject of David J. Hufford's "The Terror that >>Comes in the Night", which you may have noticed Jerome Clark >>refer to a couple of times recently (and in some pretty >>peculiar ways too, if I may say so). >'Fraid not, old chap. Hufford and I are mutual admirers. (See >his kind words about me and my approach on the back cover >of High Strangeness.) When my review of his The Terror That >Comes in the Night was published in Fate in 1983, he told me >I was just about the only reviewer who seemed to grasp >the point of the book. (Others read it, in common [I gather] >with Paul, as an exercise in reductionism, when in fact it was >devastatingly critical of reductionist explanations of anomalous >phenomena as counter to the spirit of truth-seeking in >science.) By the way, I recommend The Terror to anyone >seeking to understand the sorts of cultural biases implicit in >beliefs and arguments such as those Paul habitually reflects >and employs. >If anybody is using Hufford strangely, it's Paul here. Hufford >once wrote me a hilarious letter parodying the theories of >Michael Persinger, one of Paul's heroes. Hufford is not -- by >any stretch -- on your side of the argument, my friend, and it >ill behooves you to imply otherwise. Jerry, you deserve a medal for turning things on their head. If anyone could make black white, it would be you. Far be it for me to break up a mutual admiration society, and I am deeply moved that Hufford liked your review of his book, but let's look at who is saying what here. First. I said that the alien abduction experience (AAE)is a mind phenomenon, I specifically did *not* reduce it (I said the ontological puzzle still remained), and I emphasised that the sleep paralysis (SP) experience was *part of* the AAE, not the whole story. Now isn't all that true, Jerry? It's there in my posting for all to see. Moreover, if you saw the Discovery Channel special on alien abductions on 28 November, you will have noted I gave there a possible, and decidedly non-reductionist suggestion about the ontology of the AAE. Second. Hufford was also in that documentary. What did he say? His actual words were: "... Clearly [SP is]very much the same thing [as the AAE]... "The abduction thing is complex. Sleep Paralysis is not an explanation for it, but it cannot be ignored... [The AAE is] an experience which at the very least is indistinguishable from Sleep Paralysis..." *At the very least*, Jerry. What Hufford is saying here exactly mirrors my own understanding, and concurs with what I wrote in my posting. I cannot, and do not, believe that Hufford is seriously postulating that the AAE is caused by literal, physical alien abductions. If he is, then why is he drawing such close parallels with SP? It is you who are using Hufford's aversion to reductionism to cloak your apologist's stance regarding physical abductions. So please do not presume to use the "it ill behoves you" line with me. Old chap. Let's go a bit further. In the same documentary, two of the abductees interviewed stated that the experience, while real to them, was of an inner nature. One of them said "it was not a dream, but it wasn't physical - it was somewhere in between". This is precisely the state of consciousness involved, where the normal waking sensorium is replaced by another of equal "realness". In fact, there is a cluster of contiguous, related states which encompass, among others, SP, out-of-body states, hypnogogic visions, and lucid dreaming. It is this last which is the missing key to the whole business, and which everyone, even Hufford it seems, has not properly considered, if at all. It is that area we are looking at now in research - in experiential (phenomenological) as well as neuro reductionist ways. No ontological judgements are being made as yet, with the main emphasis currently being on developing rapid and reliable induction procedures, so everyone who wishes can test the altered state out for themselves. This "in-between" state of consciousness was called by the Sufis *barzakh*, the interworld, and was central to Iranian mystic tradition. "This intermediate world... is the world through which spirits are embodied, and bodies spiritualised," wrote the 17th-century Islamic mystic, Muhsin Fayz Kashani. The Arabic scholar, Henri Corbin, wrote: "The sensory world has its analogue there." He coined the term "imaginal" to describe the condition of barzakh, and that term was used by Kenneth Ring in his books - which ought to be familiar to all members of this list. I go into the question of this "interworld" or barzakh in more detail in Chapter 4 of my "SYMBOLIC LANDSCAPES" (ISBN 0-906362-19-9;1992; available from Gothic Image in the U.K., and in the U.S.is distributed, I think, by Book People and New Leaf, so should be available if ordered through bookshops). It has *everything* to do with what we are encountering in alien abductions. And here is a tradition, thousands of years old, that carefully mapped this state of mental (if not dimensional)reality *and did not reduce it* to hallucination, etc. One can learn from that, without buying into any specific religious beliefs - indeed, that should be avoided. As should the belief system that says AAE's are literal, physical events. So you see, Jerry, mystics do have their uses. Paul Devereux PS- In many ways, ET-ism is the most crass reductionism. And, also, note how reductionist you become, Jerry, when anyone mentions the word "occult" in a posting. PPS - None of what I have written above should necessarily be understood as coming under the label of "paranormal". We are talking about states of mind that anyone on this list can be trained or aided to enter.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 5 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:42:46 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 13:54:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s John Velez wrote: >Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:41:16 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >Until about six years ago I had rationalized my lifetime of >unexplained experiences and memories as OOBE's (out of body >exp's) vivid nightmares, and several unexplained objects (UFO >sightings) I had seen in the sky (throughout my life - beginning >in childhood) that simply didn't fit in with anything -I- knew >of... <mega-snip> >Well six years ago I pick up a copy of "Missing Time" (which I >have also had!) and begin to read the accounts of what the >abductees remember and report as having happened to them... <more mega-snip> >...I'm sorry but OOBEs don't explain what I recall... <snip> >I also recall that my bed was - always empty-...<snip> I believe >that in the case of OOBE's the subject can see their body on the >bed or wherever... <snip> >As an abductee I may have had a few OBEs along the way but my >recollections fit the pattern that is associated with alien >intervention/abduction, not the one described by mystics. We (my >wife and children too) have marks on our bodies that are the >sequelae of these abduction episodes. Unless we're all >manifesting 'stigmata' something real and physical is >happening. Dear John, Thank you for your honest account. Most revealing. I am absolutely convinced of your sincerity, and the truth of the experiences you describe. But, they are not physical abductions - I *promise* you. What you describe is in fact a shifting from one frame of reference(OOBE) to another (alien abduction),and, moreover, you came to make that shift because of influence from outside (you were given "the pattern"), from someone who may not have a clue about what this experience is like from the inside. Like you, I do. And like you, the entities I have seen look solid, can touch me (and bite and scratch) and I can touch them. But even your experience of touching something solid in "real, waking life" is a mental effect, John. The experience is put together inside your brain. Now, I don't know what these entities truly are, I'm keeping my powder dry on that issue, but they are encountered in the altered states of mind that I have been describing elsewhere on this list. As for the physical body being visible when in an OBE state, that's by no means always true. I have just completed a survey of the OBE literature, and quite a few of the leading lights in OBEs or "astral projection" (that's the Theosophical belief frame for the experience, now a bit out of date) never could see their bodies. Their beds seemed empty. As for physical marks, well, I think they could be explained by several approaches. But one, at least, is a form of stigmata. In tribal societies, as I have also written elsewhere on this list (I do hope you catch some of this stuff, John - it is relevant to you and your co-experients), the shaman can sport marks and wounds he claims were inflicted on him my spirits while on his out-of-body journey. I have seen some of the anthropological photos of this. What you describe shows quite clearly that you are prone to these states of consciousness, John, but that of course does not make your * experiences* any less valid or realistic. It is such a pity so few people seem to want to know of the middle way between naive literalism and out-and-out debunking in these matters. Best wishes, Paul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 5 Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #201 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:03:59 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 18:18:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #201 Apology to MW #201 (For November 30, 1997) =85Not a new story that just came to me, as I sit on hard chairs, and I read I'm not free. There were *charges* of thievery, graft and corruption -- the right wrote a writ, and secured an injunction. They weren't straight at her, they cheap shot her family; they robbed, and they maimed hapless folks -- sheer insanity! This nation we love, in unkind dissolution; is it fraught with cold terrors -- here (!) at the top institutions? Constitutions, as writ, are spat upon jokes to be used and abused, silken ropes around throats? They are tools of the mighty to be used when they're necessary -- when convenient, or useful, or applicablely arbitrary? They're to hide flying lights moving low on horizons that are lights on their own far beyond my describing! They have worked with the secrets that spawn all the craziness you'd refute if you knew and that's _why_ they're betraying us! Now most will not care in their drive to live lives that they work pretty hard for -- but then learn to despise. They are ruled by the hatreds gladly fanned in their churches -- they are scared, and upset and their fear is discursive. They look at the few, and told they see many -- distract and bedevil, and are short half a penny. The right won't help out when it comes to the sharing; though their mansions are _built_ by the ones that starve staring. As they pray for big gub'mint, say, to "run off those faggots," they want its retreat when they spew their detritus! Imposing their will when it complements business, though forgetting the trust when it comes to what's generous! As they mask and they hide their fine mess of choice secrets, the watchers will not interfere, or entreat us. At the whim of the man to be born, work, and die =85 *secure* in your rut, so, not watching the sky. Lehmberg@snowhill.com The man -- all the while laughing, and having fun at your expense -- knowing you're a fool and worse, and programming _your_ children _not_ to be the leaders in the next century. They'll play bait and switch with all manners of anomaly, dragging you back and forth across the line of credulity so hard, and so often that you doubt the validity of your own sensibility. The knowing, finally, is a foundation that won't shift beneath your feet. You look up with a hard new eye, see the unending expanse of the misty *always was* -- and ask the question, =85 not why, but, "When"! When will _you_ have the pitching deck secure beneath your feet, and a real "star to steer her by"? It's then you'll have your why. -- Explore the Alien View? http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/ "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake for wondering when.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 5 Re: UFO Database interest From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 09:33:46 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 17:42:39 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Database interest >Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 14:01:17 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Database interest >Joel- >I agree with your goal, but I don't think it is attainable. >You're making the assumption that all those who gather >information are interested in sharing it freely with others, >which I have found it not always the case. Many researchers, who >make their living as a part of this genre, must sell their >material to make ends meet. They are not likely to give it up >freely to a public database on the Internet, but for the sake of >your proposal, let's assume this isn't a problem. We have no control here, but we will get as much as we can. After all, the people who donate the data can also use the database, so it still serves their own selfish needs. >As far as I've been able to determine, every researcher I've met >has had their own methodology in filing their material. This >would have to be coordinated by those who put this database >together, so it would likely result in the complete review of >each piece of evidence and the establishment of a filing system >that will meet the needs that are identified. A simple database >in Access is one thing, but a database designed to index several >hundred thousand records (items) and allow for multiple access >across the Internet is something a bit more complicated. The >Microsoft "dog and pony show" makes this type of database look >simple, but in reality there are numerous pitfalls that one can >get trapped in. This is, of course, assuming that an agreement >can be reached on how the database should be organized and >indexed. But for the sake of this exercise, we'll assume that >the database has been designed and set up, and that all of the >freely submitted data has been converted. This has been thought about and considered and yes, the data will have to be reviewed and possibly reformatted for best database use. It is a matter of participation that will get this volume of work done andI aim to get as much as possible with one set of well thought out protocols from the getgo. >There is still the problem of who will maintain (i.e. pay for and >service) the WEB server and the Internet bandwidth usage. If >there is any interest in this at all, the usage could be very >high and the amount of material involved may require that a >seperate Web server be assigned to this task. In addition, the >database may require a seperate server to provide that >information as requested. Bandwidth usage, meanwhile, may cost >hundreds of dollars a month, which is an expense that would have >to be met somewhere along the line. Donations, donations, donations. The only way to go. We just have to search high and low and really push. we believe this effort is valid enough and important enough to attract this kind os attention and so far it has. >We still haven't defined how much material is to be included in >this database. Will it concentrate on one facet of the genre, or >will it include information on related subjects (i.e. cattle >mutilation, crop circles, remote viewing, etc.)? Will everything >be reviewed before it is posted, or will it be up to the reader >to determine the veracity of the information. If it's to be >reviewed, who will those reviewers be and how will they be >appointed? If not, then what is to prevent a creative >11-year-old from writing up a good article as a prank and >submitting it for inclusion to the site. If there is no check of >the material, it would likely be posted. I will add that >accuracy of the data will not neccesarily increase with the >volumn of information included. Accuracy is (in part) impacted >by the broad range of researchers and variations in their >investigative techniques. What one researcher may regard as >highly accurate, the next may regard as sloppy. This is, of >course, a personality based genre. We want to cover all aspects, since even a single report can cover many aspects. we will divide the reports into: 1- investigated reports - most valid 2- uninvestigated reports - sorted by source (some will be more valid than others) 3- to be inverstigated reports. With this in mind the researcher can choose what level is best for their use. >The goal of compiling information in one location for all to see >is admirable, and to a limited degree that has been underway for >a number of years. There are several major efforts now underway >to gather infornation, but most of it is not destined for free >Internet access. As I said, I admire your proposed goal. But >let's not make this sound like a simple project, as (IMHO) it is >far more complicated than it may appear and will require >decisions that this genre has not previously been willing to >make. We are not under any illusions that this is an easy task, only a necessary one. And that is what will motivate it's ultimate completion. Your comments and the criticisms of others are welcome to make this project as valid and worthwhile as possible. Thanks. Joel Henry ***************************************************** Minnesota MUFON Webmaster Minnesota MUFON Web Page= http://www.wavefront.com/~jhenry/index.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 5 Posting Rules From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 21:02:49 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 21:02:49 -0500 Subject: Posting Rules To make List Life as painless as possible for you and the List moderator, please read the following FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) carefully. If you have any questions please send the moderator E-Mail. _______________________________________________________________ Posting Rules To help current and future readers of UFO UpDates' posts and the UFO UpDates Instant Archive software at: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates please observe the following rules when posting to the List. Messages that don't meet these criteria will not be posted. 1. Line-length Please make your lines no more than 70 characters long ------------------------This line is 70 characters--------------------- Longer lines are wrapped by various pieces of software along the Net and leave awkward and eye-jarring line lengths. 2. Attribution When responding to a message from the List, _always_ include the four line 'header' from the body of that message at the start of _your_ message - eg.: >Date: 01 Jan 97 00:00:01 EST >From: Genghis@mukluk.com <Bob Bobberts> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Grays are Grey Area Again - it's at the beginning of the 'body' of the message you are responding to. 3. Quoting _Always_ quote from the message to which you are responding. Start each quoted line with a 'greater-than' sign (>) as the first character. It should look like this: >Start each quoted line with a 'greater-than' sign (>) as the >first character. It should look like this: The Archive software will automatically italicize these lines. Visit the Archive page and take a look. Keep quoted material from previous messages to a minimum: Just quote enough text to let people know what you are referring to. Quotes should come _before_ you key your response. Messages that do not utilize the required quoting protocol or contain excessive quoting will not be posted to UpDates. Most modern E-Mail software will allow the user to click a 'Reply' button and automatically open a new window, with the message being responded to inserted with universal quote-mark (>) at the beginning of each line. When 'Reply' is clicked, some E-Mail software will insert a line which states: On 01 Jan 97 at 00:00:01 EST, UFO UpDates wrote: If your program does this, please remove it - UFO UpDates did not _write_ the message - it merely posted it to the List. 5. Don't send 'personal' responses to the list that should be sent directly to the original author. Send a message to the list only if it contains new information that you want _everyone_ to see. Messages that contain what the List Administrator considers to be personal attacks or 'flames' will not be posted to the List. Those messages will be forwarded to the person they refer to for their information. 6. URLs (Web Site addresses) _must_ include 'http://' and be on one line. The Archive software will make the URL a 'click-able' link to that address in your archived message. ------------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Re: That Ol' Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 15:58:03 PST Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 04:25:54 -0500 Subject: Re: That Ol' Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis > From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com> > Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:35:59 EST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: That Ol' Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis > Jerry Clark wrote: > >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] > >Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 17:44:54 PST > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: That Ol' Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis > >> From: DevereuxP@aol.com [Paul Devereux] > >> Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 09:15:19 -0500 (EST) > >> To: updates@globalserve.net > >> Subject: That Ol' Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis > >> explained by some notion of spontaneous time travel (past and > >> future memories, if you like) - or temporally-'loose' imagery > >> of some kind. > >Oh, dear. Of course the evidence for these sorts of loopy > >"explanations" is somewhere between nil and nonexistent, and > >they're interesting only because they come from somebody who > >routinely alleges that the ETH has no basis in evidence. You > >have to decide, Paul, whether you want to be a scientist or a > >mystic. It seems to me that you're blurring the distinction all > >the time. > Jerry, > There you go again, not merely disagreeing, but denigrating > ("loopy"). I am sure I am no more loopy than you, and as > intelligent and scholarly as you to boot. > In this particular instance (taken out of context here as it so > carefully is), I was not putting forward a developed theory but > simply mentioning another way to approach the problem of > anomalous things-seen-the-sky as an alternative to the ETH. In > particular, I was concerned to make the point that what I and a > school-friend saw was an airship of early twentieth-century > design. This really happened, and I do not see how the ETH could > be of use in explaining the sighting. So I suggested that perhaps > we are not seeing extra-terrestrial craft but transient temporal > displacements from both past and future. (How would *you* explain > the airship in ETH terms?) This is no less a proven possibility > than is the ETH, I'd remind you. I have repeatedly argued, and you have in no way refuted, the assertion that the ETH is entirely congruent with some or most of the major schools of exobiological theory. If you want to speculate in a way that removes you from any scientific bearings whatever, well, of course that's you're right. Occultists have always claimed to be on the cutting edge of science. Just don't lecture the rest of us for not wanting to follow you into the wild blue. I doubt very much, actually, that you saw a "transient temporal displacement," whatever the hell that is. One discovery I made while researching the UFO encyclopedia is the continuum between turn-of-the-century UFO reports and post- Arnold ones. "Airship"like UFOs continue to be seen, distinguished largely by their torpedo or Zeppelin shape and absence of luminosity (though they do have lights along the sides as well as, often, searchlights). Where I was able to find firsthand reports (as opposed to the often exaggerated accounts in the sensationalistic turn-of-the-century American Press), I found that witnesses were describing this sort of UFO -- a type of UFO, interestingly, that ufologists, including me till relatively recently, were unaware of. > But it was, nevertheless, an off-the-top-of-the-head example of > another approach for the sake of the point I was trying to make. > If I was to get serious about this type of explanation, I'd > invoke non-locality, Bell's Theorem , etc., and other matters > currently exercising the thinking of some serious scientists, > Jerry. If I had the time to explore this I would, just to show > you that it is easy to fashion a notion as convincing as anything > put forward under the banner of the ETH. In fact, this is the > sort of thing I was hoping might develop in an ET-FREE period of > discussion on this list. But, of course, you dismissed that > proposal, too. Paul, I'm sure you won't be happy till the world is full of persons who agree with you absolutely. Meantime, all of us have to operate in the real world in which people hold opinions that drive us to exasperation. Unlike you, I'm willing to tell somebody I disagree (as I disagree, ever more profoundly, with you), but I will never tell him or her to shut up. > > >> The mental state or states I am discussing are also - *in > >>part*- the subject of David J. Hufford's "The Terror that > >>Comes in the Night", which you may have noticed Jerome Clark > >If anybody is using Hufford strangely, it's Paul here. Hufford > >once wrote me a hilarious letter parodying the theories of > >Michael Persinger, one of Paul's heroes. Hufford is not -- by > >any stretch -- on your side of the argument, my friend, and it > >ill behooves you to imply otherwise. > Jerry, you deserve a medal for turning things on their head. If > anyone could make black white, it would be you. Far be it for > me to break up a mutual admiration society, and I am deeply moved > that Hufford liked your review of his book, but let's look at > who is saying what here. > First. I said that the alien abduction experience (AAE)is a mind > phenomenon, I specifically did *not* reduce it (I said the > ontological puzzle still remained), and I emphasised that the > sleep paralysis (SP) experience was *part of* the AAE, not the > whole story. Now isn't all that true, Jerry? It's there in my > posting for all to see. Moreover, if you saw the Discovery > Channel special on alien abductions on 28 November, you will have > noted I gave there a possible, and decidedly non-reductionist > suggestion about the ontology of the AAE. > Second. Hufford was also in that documentary. What did he say? > His actual words were: > "... Clearly [SP is]very much the same thing [as the AAE]... > "The abduction thing is complex. Sleep Paralysis is not an > explanation for it, but it cannot be ignored... [The AAE is] an > experience which at the very least is indistinguishable from > Sleep Paralysis..." > *At the very least*, Jerry. What Hufford is saying here exactly > mirrors my own understanding, and concurs with what I wrote in my > posting. I cannot, and do not, believe that Hufford is seriously > postulating that the AAE is caused by literal, physical alien > abductions. If he is, then why is he drawing such close parallels > with SP? Since I have discussed the abduction phenomenon with Hufford in correspondence, I know rather more about his views than Paul gets from some edited sound bytes on a documentary. Actually, my views are fairly close to Hufford's. Meantime, I urge people on the list to read Hufford's paper (pp. 348-53) in Alien Discussions (1994). Like me, Hufford is essentially an agnostic, skeptical of conventional explanations yet concerned about the way "much abduction theory, at present, is way out in front of its data" (a criticism that applies as much to Paul as to those abduction literalists he's always demonizing and whom he fantasizes me to be). Hufford does suggest some useful approaches and conceptual frameworks. It's too bad that he isn't more actively involved in the discussion. > It is you who are using Hufford's aversion to reductionism to > cloak your apologist's stance regarding physical abductions. So > please do not presume to use the "it ill behoves you" line with > me. Old chap. I guess, Paul, that since you seem incapable of nuanced thought, and are bereft of any sense of ambiguity or uncertainty or tentativeness when it comes to extraordinarily complex problems, you can't imagine such caution in others. Those who question you automatically become apologists for physical abductions. I'll leave it to readers to decide for themselves if that is the position I have been trying to argue here. I will remind them of how ballistic you go at the mere sound of the adjective/noun "agnostic." Even Phil Klass has had no trouble grasping my essential agnosticism. That this continues to escape you says, I fear, more about you than about me. > Let's go a bit further. In the same documentary, two of the > abductees interviewed stated that the experience, while real to > them, was of an inner nature. One of them said "it was not a > dream, but it wasn't physical - it was somewhere in between". Of course, if these abductees had said (as most do, most recently John Velez, whom you address condescendingly elsewhere on this list) that the experience was purely physical, you would have rejected their testimony out of hand. I can't help thinking of a line from an old Simon and Garfunkel song: A man hears what he wants to hear/ And disregards the rest. Evidently, only abductees and other experients who tell you what you want to believe exercise credible judgment. The rest to you is just "folklore," I guess. > This is precisely the state of consciousness involved, where the > normal waking sensorium is replaced by another of equal > "realness". In fact, there is a cluster of contiguous, related > states which encompass, among others, SP, out-of-body states, > hypnogogic visions, and lucid dreaming. It is this last which is > the missing key to the whole business, and which everyone, even > Hufford it seems, has not properly considered, if at all. It is > that area we are looking at now in research - in experiential > (phenomenological) as well as neuro reductionist ways. No > ontological judgements are being made as yet, with the main > emphasis currently being on developing rapid and reliable > induction procedures, so everyone who wishes can test the altered > state out for themselves. I look forward to your explanation of multiple-witness abductions, missing people (John Velez says he was gone for two or three days, a consideration tactfully passed over in your rejoinder), and the physical effects associated with abduction experiences. (As Hufford writes, "I know of no non-abduction explanation for these events. The conventional psychological 'stigmata' explanations of such marks seem in such cases to replace one unknown with another, more conventional sounding, unknown. A stigmata explanation also fails to address the additional evidence such as shared observations among family members. To simply say this must, then, be a case of folie a deux is to merely state that no amount of evidence will count in such cases." Why did I think of you, Paul, when I read these words?) > This "in-between" state of consciousness was called by the Sufis > *barzakh*, the interworld, and was central to Iranian mystic > tradition. "This intermediate world... is the world through which > spirits are embodied, and bodies spiritualised," wrote the > 17th-century Islamic mystic, Muhsin Fayz Kashani. > The Arabic scholar, Henri Corbin, wrote: "The sensory world has > its analogue there." He coined the term "imaginal" to describe > the condition of barzakh, and that term was used by Kenneth Ring > in his books - which ought to be familiar to all members of this > list. > I go into the question of this "interworld" or barzakh in more > detail in Chapter 4 of my "SYMBOLIC LANDSCAPES" (ISBN > 0-906362-19-9;1992; available from Gothic Image in the U.K., and > in the U.S.is distributed, I think, by Book People and New Leaf, > so should be available if ordered through bookshops). It has > *everything* to do with what we are encountering in alien > abductions. And here is a tradition, thousands of years old, that > carefully mapped this state of mental (if not dimensional)reality > *and did not reduce it* to hallucination, etc. One can learn from > that, without buying into any specific religious beliefs - > indeed, that should be avoided. As should the belief system that > says AAE's are literal, physical events. > So you see, Jerry, mystics do have their uses. > Paul Devereux > PS- In many ways, ET-ism is the most crass reductionism. And, > also, note how reductionist you become, Jerry, when anyone > mentions the word "occult" in a posting. Let us note your criticism of my criticism of occult approaches. No wonder you're defensive. There is a strong occult tinge to your work and thinking. It's your right to hold whatever beliefs you want, but all things considered, it's bad taste to accuse others of being unscientific in the next breath. > PPS - None of what I have written above should necessarily be > understood as coming under the label of "paranormal". We are > talking about states of mind that anyone on this list can be > trained or aided to enter. You have a good legal mind, Paul. I like that "None of what I have written above." True enough, but not really the point. Cheers, Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Re: Solved Abduction Cases? From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 16:12:26 PST Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 04:26:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Solved Abduction Cases? > From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com> > Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:23:29 EST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: Solved Abduction Cases? > Jerry Clark wrote: > >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] > >Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:24:34 PST > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Solved Abduction Cases? > >> From: DevereuxP@aol.com [Paul Devereux] > >> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:50:16 -0500 (EST) > >> To: updates@globalserve.net > >> Subject: Solved Abduction Cases? > >> Dear List, > >> About a week back, Jerome Clark made an intervention in my > >> exchange with Sean Jones concerning folklore and ufology, but > >> I've accidentally managed to banish it into the ether! > >> Anyhow... > >> Dear Jerry, > >> I can only take your intervention as meaning that you > >>literally believe that an alien planetoid-sized craft did > >>accompany the comet Hale-Bopp, and that all that is told about > >>Grays and Roswell, etc., is the literal truth. No storytelling, > >>hyping, mytholigising of past events, and the rest that makes > >>up the stuff of folklore. > >> Thank you. It was an enlightening insight into the state of > >>your ufological thinking. > >> Best wishes, > >> Paul > >Hi, Paul, > >Sorry, I couldn't resist the opportunity to tweak you. > >It seemed to me that you were using the word "folklore" > >as if it held some meaning unique to ufology, and > >specifically as a polite way of characterizing all > >opinions and phenomena not to your liking. > >Folklore applies to all aspects of human life. To > >assert that there is folklore about UFOs is about as > >enlightening as offering the observation that in all > >communities there is gossip. > >Cheers and (if you are in the USA) best Thanksgiving > >wishes, > >Jerry > Dear Jerry, > Oh, I see - more of your playful tweaking! > I agree with you that folklore is not unique to ufology, but > please understand it would be would be easier for some of us to > spot when you are only tweaking if you had not initially been so > hostile and defensive when the issue of folklore was raised in > the first place, way back when! I am relieved to find that you don't consider folklore unique to ufology. Knowing your rhetorical style, however, I find it hard not to conclude that "folklore" is anything a UFO witness says that you don't want to hear. To the rest of us, the fact that folklore exists in ufology is a banally obvious fact, but not relevant to the discussion of what the core phenomenon (of CE2s, radar/visuals, and other documented hard-evidence cases) may consist of. I say this, incidentally, as one who, having a general interest in folklore, has studied UFO folklore and written about it extensively. At least one prominent, well-regarded ufologist has criticized my Encyclopedia for paying too much attention to this stuff. I confess that I couldn't help indulging myself. I mean, who can resist the Ashtar Command? Not I. > The importance of raising the folklore issue is that it is clear > that many people within ufology are taking some of the folklore > for being factual, descriptive information. The presence of the > folkore needs to be more widely acknowledged so its workings > within the flux of ufology can be better perceived. Folklore exists in all areas of human life. Nonetheless, all human affairs are not reducible to folklore studies simply because some, most, or even all of us at one time or another believe a tall tale to be true. This argument gets us nowhere, Paul. What I object to is your use of the concept of folklore in ufology as if it meant something -- as if it were, in other words, something other than a rhetorical device. As if there were not a considerable effort, and an attendant literature, in which serious ufologists have sought to separate sense from nonsense. > Thank you for your Thanskgiving good wishes - I had an excellent > one in this marvellous, generous and friendly country. And when > both of us are next over the other side of the Pond, I'll have > a jar of one of those brews you (so wisely) admire on the bar > waiting for you. Ah, something on which, at last, we are in entire agreement. Long may your countrymen work their brewing magic, and I look forward to consuming one (or maybe even two or three) of those brews in your good company. All best, Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Re: UFO Database interest From: UFO Joe Daniels <ufojoe@cron-2.mco.on.ca> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:39:50 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 04:33:24 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Database interest On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Steven Kaeser wrote: > Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 10:26:35 -0500 > From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> > To: UFO Joe Daniels <ufojoe@cron-2.mco.on.ca> > Subject: Re: UFO Database interest > A centralized database is possible of course, but the degree to which it is > "complete" would be an issue. The database would never be complete, but that does not mean it would not be of use. > But FOIA dcouments are usually poor copies that can barely be read (even if > they don't black out the text) and it would have to re-keyed into a text > system. This is a massive task. A pure text system would be sensible, but > would ignore the ability of multimedia computers to include video and sound, > which would seem to be important to anyone who wanted to create a centralized > UFO database of relevent information. The information could be stored as text, the pictures as GIFs or JPGs and sounds as WAV files for the time being. > You might want to check out the In-Search-Of web sight. They are going to go > off line at the end of the year unless financial backing can be arranged. His > expenses have gone up to over $300 a month, and that doesn't include the time > it takes to manage it. WEB pages are great until you actually begin to > attract a following and then you face added expense and other problems. I agree, my own site costs me about $300 per month to maintain with no income. > If you follow all the tangents of this genre, you'll end up with a site that > includes so much that you won't be able to index it (yes, there are limits to > effeciency). Well I'm not sure that's entirely the job of the site manager. As long as the data is available, researchers should be required to do something. How can one anticipate the needs of all researchers. Researching implies some work on behalf of the researcher. > How would the person maintaining the database tell if this was a "real" > researcher or someone "posing" as one. The simple act of accepting > information for posting can impact on your credibility, and if the > information contained is not accurate it will reflect back on the > entire site. I see the database managers job to simply present the data. If not then the database may become skewed due to censorship. As I mentioned previously, until recently most UFO organizations would not even accept the report of an abduction. So all those potential cases are now lost. If someone might be under the mistaken impression that such cases are a new manifestation, but that's just a result of prior censorship of such cases. > But the compilation of data is already underway, so I wouldn't think that a > lot of data is going to be lost. Many of these efforts are focused on > small segments of the genre, but the data is being accumulated and > archived. You are taking this one step further and attempting to > compile it for access on the "net", which is more difficult. Not really. It's just that the jump from text files to HTML is small one. Once the text files have been collected in one place it is rather easy to access them using whatever platform/languge that is available. I use the "net" as my personal file cabinet. Since most requests I get are based on a geographical area and a date, that's the way I organized my files. ie: "I saw something in Hamilton in the spring of 1975. Did anyone else see anything?" > As would I. But I think that a focused effort is more realistic and would > probably be more effective in the long run. I'm trying to work with FUFOR and > interest them in releasing some of their material on CD-Rom, but I not only You're already treading into a troublesome area. CDROM is destined to go the way of the 8-Track recorder as it is due to be replaced by DVDs. Will a researcher in 25 or 50 years be able to access that CDROM? > have to convince them that it's a valid concept, but I will also have to > manage the project from beginning to end if I can put something > together. A CD-Rom is in some ways more complicated than a WEB site, > but the project you propose is far larger. My suggestion is just to collect files in one place with some sort of useful index. At the present time, most files are either spread all over the web, burried in a book, or sitting in someone's basement. I think there would be a much larger interest in the subject if the general population was made aware of the large number of sightings that go unreported in the media. .-----------------------------------------------------------------------. | From UFO Joe Daniels ufojoe@cron-2.mco.net -or- http://cron-2.mco.net | | 37122-769 Southdale Road, East, London, Ontario, Canada, N6E-3B0 | | Computer/Internet Consultant CUFORN: http://cron-2.mco.net/web/cuforn | | Marketing Consultant MUFON: http://www.globalserve.net/~updates/mufon | `-----------------------------------------------------------------------'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Re: UFO Database interest From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 16:26:41 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 04:37:06 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Database interest >Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 08:05:54 +0200 >From: Jakes Louw <LOUWJE@telkom.co.za> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Database interest >>Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 08:45:55 -0600 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Database interest >>I have gotten many positive responses from people out there who >>believe this effort is long overdue. Past database derived data >>has been limited in accuracy by the limited data available and >>have taken great effort to generate results. We hope to alleviate >>those problems. >Joel >I originally opened the thread entitled "Phoenix Lights, FTs, >whatever", and it ended off from my side as follows: >"What I'm getting at, and I'm sure that most on the list will >agree, is that there is a requirement for a centralised, >coordinated database that must be used for abductions, sightings, >and other encounters and/or manifestations. Why? Well, there is a >plethora of data mining packages out there, that can be run >against MS Access on Windows or even Oracle on UNIX." >I think you and I have a similar vision, and judging from some >of the responses, there are many people out there that will >welcome an international database. >I've got a lot of ideas regarding the database design and >data structure, so if you want to, you can mail me direct >or we can keep the discussions on the elist so that >everybody can have input. >I'm easy. >Good luck, and scream if you need help: I've been in the >IT industry for 15 years on the OS side, and my wife >is a software developer. >Jakes E. Louw Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated. At the moment we are taking names of those who have something (money, hardware, services, effort, etc.) to contribute. As we pool together these names, we will be getting back to everyone, let them know where we are at and getting commitments for whatever they decide they want to do. We have 2 database programmers interested so far and I will e-mail you their names/addresses soon so you can communicate your combined ideas and come up with a sort of concensus on how it should be setup (within practical and funding limits). Then we can sit down and hammer out the specifics. I'll get back to you soon. In the mean time, if you know exactly what element of the project you want to get involved in, please feel free to let me know and I'll put you on the list of potential contributors. Joel Henry ***************************************************** Minnesota MUFON Webmaster Minnesota MUFON Web Page= http://www.wavefront.com/~jhenry/index.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 18:24:45 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 04:39:24 -0500 Subject: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > From: XianneKei@aol.com [Rebecca Keith] > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:12:01 -0500 (EST) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > >From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> > >Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:22:54 -0500 > >Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:05:52 -0500 > >Subject: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] &c > > UFOs are not a religion to you, nor to me, but they are > > a religion to a large number of people. And I see those > > numbers growing. > > Rather than going into denial, probably it would be more > > constructive to try to do something about it. > Perhaps limiting ourselves to a discussion of FACTS and not > speculations about ultraterrestrials, etc., would be a good place > to start. <g> > I'm curious Bob, how would we go about steering away from the > religious aspects that crop up from time to time? > I'm serious. > Rebecca How could you steer away from the religious aspects? Perhaps you can start by not posting religious articles that seem to have nothing to do with the UFO field: > From: RSchatte@aol.com [Rebecca Schatte] > Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 15:27:36 -0400 (EDT) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Fwd: Millennium Raises Hopes, Fears > --------------------- > Forwarded message: > Subj: Millennium Raises Hopes, Fears > Date: 97-10-25 12:11:20 EDT > From: AOL News > .c The Associated Press > By DAVID BRIGGS > WASHINGTON (AP) - Jesus Christ is about to return, and the 1,500 > folks packed into the Sheraton Washington ballroom couldn't be > happier.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 17:45:01 PST Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 04:47:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 13:41:59 -0500 > To: updates@globalserve.net > From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com> > Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:19:50 EST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > Jerome Clark wrote: > >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerry Clark] > >Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:40:19 PST > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > >> From: DevereuxP@aol.com [Paul Devereux] > >> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:47:43 -0500 (EST) > >> To: updates@globalserve.net > >> Subject: whatever > >>>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA> > >>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > >>>To: updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto) > >>>Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:16:12 -0600 (CST) > My Dear Jerome > b) Demonisation: the trouble is that you not only disagree but > *denigrate* at the same time. The exchange between you and Tom > King (I think his name was), for instance, resulted in someone > who would have been a welcome addition to this list being driven > away because of your behaviour. Have you ever looked into a mirror? I have met few people in this field so intolerant of views that do not sound exactly like their own (another will be discussed presently) as you. You are curiously resistant to testimony you don't want to hear, and so oddly eager to dispense diagnoses of persons sufficiently naive, ignorant, or crazy enough to disagree with you. And then you accuse me -- someone who's perfectly prepared to engage in a good debate, all the while encouraging vigorous discussion and a broad range of reasonable views -- of the very faults you display so exuberantly. > And while we are on this topic, I want to mention your insulting > posture towards John Keel. He may not be a scholar in the sense > you would approve, and I accept that, but that doesn't justify > you labelling his work as being "half-baked" and the other even > more derogatory terms you used. I tell you, one of my joys of > popping down to Manhattan is the chance of meeting up with the > old war horse. Neither you nor I may agree with his conclusions > about "ultra-terrestrials", but as another member of this list > has pointed out, it was brave of him to move into the spheres of > this desperately entangled subject area the way he did. Also, his > thoughts on "soft" objects pre-figured earth lights, which he has > personally witnessed, and he made some useful observations about > "window" areas, and more. He may not have the intellectual > tightness you admire, Jerry (but do not always display yourself), > or come to the conclusions which you approve of, but he has a > measure of wisdom and experience, and deserves respect. The things I have said about Keel's ideas are nothing compared to what he routinely has said about others, including me. And I don't mean my ideas. I mean me, and I mean the other ufologists and Forteans whom he has castigated, slandered, and attacked in the most vulgar and personal way over the years. I can't imagine that anybody who knows him better than you do would disagree, and I've had numerous discussions with others who have had exactly the same sour experience with him. Hell, you don't have to know him. You just have to read him. Keel has written voluminously. I have letters from him going back to the mid-1960s, not to mention all his books and most of his magazine articles and a number of privately distributed monographs. But let's just take a few select quotes from his article in Journal of Popular Culture (Vol. 8, 1975). Now let's consider that this is supposed to be a scholarly publication in which contributors, in the fashion of scholars, are expected to document their assertions with empirical evidence, not just personal animosity, and consider that he offers no support for any of the following: "Teenagers and housewives" are the typical ufologists. "The classic search for identity plays an important role." The teenaged ufologist "is most often isolated on a farm, or separated from his peers because of his eccentric personality. The housewives are often suffering from marital problems (the divorce rate among female ufologists is high).... "Ufology provides an 'ego trip' for those who establish themselves as the local UFO expert." These "hardcore believers" assume that "everyone else shares [their] personality flaws... [M]any sincere percipients and contactees [keep in mind Keel believed Woody Derenberger, Howard Menger, Ernest Arthur Bryant, and many more of saucerdom's most flamboyant hoaxers] have been branded liars by UFO enthusiasts who thought they detected their own behavioral problems in them." Ufologists have "two types of distinguishable personalities ... obsessive-compulsive and paranoid-schizophrenic." They are "hobbyists" (as Keel specifically characterizes Richard Hall, editor of the classic The UFO Evidence, ordinarily considered a pioneer in this subject, and long a voice of reason in ufology) and "cultists," "non-objective ... propagandists," "impressionable," full of "distorted attitudes." Though these are serious charges, Keel provides -- as already noted -- no documentation for them whatever. In fact, most psychological surveys of ufologists indicate we're a pretty ordinary bunch. The lunatic and cultist slander is a product of a malicious imagination, and nothing more. Frankly, my impression is that the average ufologist is a middle-class, middle-aged Republican. One reason I no longer attend UFO conferences. I already live among such; why would I travel any distance to be among more? Practically since his appearance on the UFO/Fortean scene some three decades ago, an unending stream of abuse and vituperation has flown from Keel's mouth and pen. Ufologists shouldn't feel alone, though. Keel despises scientists and intellectuals as much as he detests anomalists and paranormalists who hold views different from his own. (Nasty quotes available on request.) To understand just how nutty John's views are, and how nasty he can be in expressing them, you might read my essay on his life and career in The UFO Book (and in more detail in the forthcoming UFO Encyclopedia, second edition). I have received some vituperative letters in the course of my long ufological career, but none matches a March 27, 1996, communication. In this letter, written in response to my complaint about his circulating a vicious falsehood which had me a regularly hospitalized mental patient (I mention this in a recent posting), Keel has this to say about ufologists: They are "idiots and crackpots" who traffic in "totally misguided nonsense" and "cultural illiteracy." My own "uncontrolled obsession has turned [my] whole life into doggy-do." Keel goes on to make some bizarre allegations, such as that I "had serious problems as a teenager" (my teenage years were frightfully boring, characterized, as best I remember them, by adolescent sexual frustration) and that I manifested "schizophrenia." As an "expert on human psychology," Keel is qualified, he says, to "realize that you wear your pathology on your sleeve, particularly when you write book reviews." I am "condemned to cultism all [my] life." "There is no reason for me -- or anyone -- to spread gossip about your mental health. You have been demonstrating it publicly for years." (I presume he means to say "mental illness," but hell, I'll take the compliment.) Most ufologists "work at minimum wage jobs, live with their parents forever, are complete social misfits and so fashion their own false reality of paranoid conspiracies and illiterate misconceptions." He goes on: "If you want to find your way into the real world you must first abandon the UFO obsession. Your depressions are possibly bio-chemical, largely induced by your UFO interests [huh?]. .. You need extensive psychotherapy coupled with drug treatment.... You are ill and have been haunted by this illness all your life. I know a lot more about you than you can ever suspect." Let me interject here to point out that Keel and I, who were close in the late 1960s and early '70s, have been largely out of contact for 25 years. As his letter and other remarks confided to me by mutual friends and acquaintances make clear, in reality he knows so little of me that (1) he thought I live with my parents [I left the family home at 17 and have not lived there since]; (2) did not know I have ever been married [I have been married, and divorced, twice. Two months ago I became engaged to a woman who will be my third wife. Yes, I know: the triumph of hope over experience. But hey, they say the third time's a charm]; (3) had no idea I have children [I have three children, the youngest of them 17, to whom I am close]. I will let readers of the list familiar with my writing judge for themselves whether my writing evinces serious mental disorder -- surely the most unique criticism ever made of it, I must say. And finally: The UFO field consists of "swindlers, charlatans, con artists, frauds, fakers, and imbeciles." And Paul takes me to task for the mild observation that Keel's ideas (not Keel personally, though naturally I have my private suspicions about the dimensions of the cracks in his pot) are "half-baked." Paul, I don't believe for a second that you are a swindler, a charlatan, a con artist, a fraud, or an imbecile, and I don't think you need to seek out psycho-therapy supplemented by drug treatment. I see no evidence that you are illiterate. I don't think you are a social misfit awash in paranoid fears, and to the best of my knowledge, you did not grow up on a farm. I do believe, however, that you have no sense of proportion whatever. > If fact, it would be pleasing to see you showing a bit more > respect all round than you tend to do, Jerry. No comment, except this one: By those for whom they apologize shall ye know them. Cheers, Jerry Clark Search for other documents from or mentioning: clark | devereuxp |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: rfsignal@sprynet.com [Cathy Johnson] Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:07:47 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 04:50:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s On Fri, 05 Dec 1997, UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> wrote: >From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:42:46 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >John Velez wrote: >>Until about six years ago I had rationalized my lifetime of >>unexplained experiences and memories as OOBE's (out of body >>exp's) vivid nightmares, and several unexplained objects (UFO >>sightings) I had seen in the sky (throughout my life - beginning >>in childhood) that simply didn't fit in with anything -I- knew >>of... ><mega-snip> >>Well six years ago I pick up a copy of "Missing Time" (which I >>have also had!) and begin to read the accounts of what the >>abductees remember and report as having happened to them... >Dear John, >Thank you for your honest account. Most revealing. >I am absolutely convinced of your sincerity, and the truth of the >experiences you describe. But, they are not physical abductions - >I *promise* you. What you describe is in fact a shifting from one >frame of reference(OOBE) to another (alien abduction),and, >moreover, you came to make that shift because of influence from >outside (you were given "the pattern"), from someone who may not >have a clue about what this experience is like from the inside. >Like you, I do. And like you, the entities I have seen look solid, >can touch me (and bite and scratch) and I can touch them. But >even your experience of touching something solid in "real, waking >life" is a mental effect, John. The experience is put together >inside your brain. Dear Paul, I would like to thank John for his honest and sincere sharing of his personal experiences. I would like to add my own experiences have involved real and solid objects and beings. There was nothing to do with OBE, nor dreams, nor hallucinations of any sort. And, my experiences were ongoing interactive sessions that I can remember. I don't want to imply that there is no such thing as OBE, only that what I experienced had nothing to do with altered states or drugs. As a matter of fact, I saw four foot tall beings and a saucer shaped craft in 1952. Those were real objects. So, I don't believe in the ETH. I know it is true that there are more than a few occassions when they are visiting on their missions. Hypothesis..HA! It is long past due when you should have widened your eyes. You are going to be in for a serious shock when reality checks in. Its not a case of what if I am right, or if you are right. It has nothing to do with us. It is what they are going to do, and when. Until, the abductions are continuing as per usual, children first. Take care for now, Cathy Johnson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 16:05:36 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 04:57:32 -0500 Subject: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 19:02:30 -0800 (PST) > From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass Sighting s > > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:09:47 -0800 > > From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass Sightings > > > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:42:05 -0500 (EST) > > > To: updates@globalserve.net > > > From: edwards@amigo.net (TIM EDWARDS) > > > Subject: NUFORC reports on the Northwest mass sightings > > [...] > > Why look!!! A big ole Russian SL-12 Rocket Booster decayed on 15 > > Nov 1997. "Wait!!!" you say, "Them supernatural lights came > > streaking from the sky after 9:00 pm Friday -14- Nov 1997 Seattle > > time!" Right, they were sighted after 5:00 am Saturday -15- Nov > > 1997 Universal Coordinated Time (UTC). Well Hot Damn!! The most > > respected non-military source of satellite information in the > > world and the actual events agree. > > Also from the above brief list we learn that the booster was > > launched three days before decay. This tells us it decayed from > > orbit. The burning re-entry would be seen below its path over a > > third of the way around the world. It would have been most > > spectacular just before crashing to earth which appeared to be > > somewhere in the northwestern United States. It probably would > > have broken into several pieces and the densest ones would have > > lead a string of flimsier pieces across the sky. Sheet-like > > pieces would have diverted some from the path of the bulk of the > > booster. > Are you saying, Ted, that there were typos involved in the dates > of that report from Peterson AFB? In particular, in its sentence > that reads: > "The Russians launched a SL-12 (Proton) four-stage rocket booster > from the Tyuratam space launch facility at 3:49 p.,. EST on Nov. > 16." > And in the sentence that reads, "The USSPACECOM Space > Surveillance Network (SSN) tracked the rocket and boosters > throughout the first three stages of launch, and observed, > recorded and reported an object re-entering the Earth's > atmosphere at 7:49 p.m. EST, Nov 16." > As you know, the sightings were on the 14th. You seem to be > saying that this US Space Command Release of Nov. 29th contained > disinformation. Do you mean that? > Jim Deardorff Not at all Jim. You appear to be comparing granny apples to delicious apples here which is another way of saying that we are talking about two different launches. I am talking about NORAD object number 25047 which, as you can see from the OIG report below was launched on 12 November 1997 and decayed on 15 November 1997, and your USSPACECOM report delivered through unnamed channels, is talking about another undesignated launch. In fact, the disconnected paragraphs you quote may in themselves be talking about two different vehicles. As you can also see at the bottom of the list, FOTON 12 DEB 25015 was reported decayed on 17 Nov. UTC which could correspond with 7:49 p.m. EST, Nov 16. Whoever asked the questions of Peterson and received the reports they did probably failed to get the relevant information they were seeking. For instance, in the couple of paragraphs you quoted there is no reference to an international designation, NORAD number or payload common name. How in the hell can anyone tell what vehicles they are talking about. Sure, you can browse through the Objects in Space Report from the OIG and collate the lauch and decay times. But the report is comprised of 6 files totalling near 4 megabytes. Now back to NORAD object 25047. After my last postings, I dove into the web and dredged up an orbital element set for it dated 13 November. Plugging this into a satellite tracking program revealed that on 14 November 1997 a little after 9:00 pm Seattle time object number 25047 was expected to be passing just north of Seattle and very very low in orbit. With this degree of corroboration, I don't see how we could fail to attribute most of the reports from the Northwest that night to this SL-12 booster. Notice how I carefully say "most" above. I also happened to be listening to the Art Bell show through these events. It seemed to me that the witnesses may not have all been reporting the same event. I had the feeling that possibly three different events were being described. The most commonly reported event was clearly the reentry of space debris. A few callers were describing something that may or may not be this reentry. And one or two callers were describing something that sounded quite different in appearance and location. Maybe all of these descriptions varied because our untrained expectations of what decaying space junk will look like burning across the sky are so dismally diverse. The conjecture and assumptions of what a reentering rocket booster would look like expressed by Art Bell and Whitley Strieber were embarrassingly cliched and inept. Perhaps they were intentionally missleading the audience to rouse their interest. Anyone who really wants to be involved with watching the skies and lives in the southwestern half of the United States or Northern Mexico can get a great training of what a nightime reentry looks like courtesy of NASA and the Space Shuttle. For every Shuttle flight, go to the official Shuttle web pages and check the landing groundtracks. If they will pass above your horizon at night, make yourself get up and watch it. It is a wondrous sight and it will explain many of the "supernatural" characteristics reported by witnesses a couple of weeks ago. Bye... Ted.. Period: November 13, 1997 through November 19, 1997 Newly Cataloged Objects: Internatl. Catalog Object Launch Period Incli- Apogee Perigee Designation Name Number Source Date Mins. nation KM KM 1997-070A KUPON 25045 CIS 11 Nov 1448.9 0.0 36039 36032 1997-070B SL-12 PLAT 25046 CIS 12 Nov 88.3 51.6 208 200 1997-070C SL-12 R/B(1) 25047 CIS 12 Nov 88.3 51.6 207 195 1997-070D SL-12 R/B(2) 25048 CIS 12 Nov 1445.7 0.1 36039 35910 1997-071A SIRIUS 2 25049 SWED 11 Nov 1424.7 0.1 35695 35432 1997-071B INDOSTAR 1 25050 INDO 11 Nov 1436.2 0.3 35796 35779 1997-071C ARIANE 44L R/B 25051 ESA 12 Nov 648.7 7.0 36709 180 1997-071D ARIANE 44L DEB 25052 ESA 12 Nov 630.9 7.0 35764 211 1997-070E SL-12 R/B(AUX M 25053 CIS 12 Nov 638.4 47.6 36058 305 1997-070F SL-12 R/B(AUX M 25054 CIS 12 Nov 637.3 47.5 36060 244 1978-064J SEASAT 1 DEB 25055 US 27 Jun 99.5 108.0 757 743 1964-026J TRANSIT 9 DEB 25056 US 04 Jun 100.9 90.5 840 769 1990-036C SL-8 DEB 25057 CIS 20 Apr 104.5 82.9 1007 974 1965-098L ALOUETTE 2 DEB 25058 CA 29 Nov 117.6 79.8 2651 497 1997-072A RESURS F 25059 CIS 17 Nov 88.6 82.3 252 196 1997-072B SL-04 R/B 25060 CIS 18 Nov 88.3 82.3 230 190 1997-073A STS 87 25061 US 19 Nov 90.2 28.4 286 280 Objects NO Longer In Orbit: Internatl. Catalog Object Launch Decay Designation Name Number Source Date Date 1987-079L SL-12 DEB 25022 CIS 16 Sep 1987 30 Oct 1997 1994-029AM PEGASUS DEB 23991 US 19 May 1994 06 Nov 1997 1986-017LR MIR DEB 23929 CIS 19 Feb 1986 08 Nov 1997 1986-017JN MIR DEB 23691 CIS 19 Feb 1986 12 Nov 1997 1997-070B SL-12 PLAT 25046 CIS 12 Nov 1997 13 Nov 1997 1994-029JL PEGASUS DEB 24185 US 19 May 1994 14 Nov 1997 1997-070C SL-12 R/B(1) 25047 CIS 12 Nov 1997 15 Nov 1997 1997-060C FOTON 12 DEB 25015 CIS 09 Oct 1997 17 Nov 1997 1997-011B ATLAS 2A CENTAU 24749 US 08 Mar 1997 19 Nov 1997 Search for other documents from or mentioning: drtedv | deardorj |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 02:51:30 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 05:35:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:42:46 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >John Velez wrote: >>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:41:16 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >>Until about six years ago I had rationalized my lifetime of >>unexplained experiences and memories as OOBE's (out of body >>exp's) vivid nightmares, and several unexplained objects (UFO >>sightings) I had seen in the sky (throughout my life - beginning >>in childhood) that simply didn't fit in with anything -I- knew >>of... ><mega-snip> Hi Paul, hi All, Paul wrote, >Thank you for your honest account. Most revealing. Please don't take this remark personally Paul as it is not directed at you specifically. The reason I wrote that e-mail is because I'm a little tired of having 'other people' tell me what I have experienced. >I am absolutely convinced of your sincerity, and the truth of the >experiences you describe. But, they are not physical abductions - >I *promise* you. I only have a couple of rules that I go by, one of them is, "never make promises that you can't keep!" <G> Yes, they are physical Paul. I'll share just one example with you (there are many) Several years ago my wife awakened me and she was very alarmed and upset. As I sat up in bed I noticed that she had drawn the covers up and exposed her upper thigh so that I could see it. She was pointing at her leg and crying, "John, what is that, how did that get there? I didn't have that last night, what happened to my leg?" She was [seriously] upset and crying. My wife doesn't get upset real easy, her highly agitated state if taken alone and out of context was unusual and out of character for her. On her leg was a very deep (about 1/2 inch) groove, with sharp, clean edges as if someone had tightened a steel strap around her leg and the muscle failed to return to it's normal shape. On the outside portion of the "strap mark" (for want of a better term) was an indentation the size and shape of a tablespoon. Like a strap indentation with a huge crater on one side. I was shocked and at a complete loss for an explanation. I rushed her over to our long time family physician (an internist who is also the chief of cardiology at Jamaica hospital here in NY) who was at a loss to explain it. He said he'd ,"never seen anything like it!" Before we left the office he even inquired if I had used something on her during sexual relations. I informed him that although sex was fun and uninhibited for us it -never- included any 'aids' or 'toys'! Did I mention I had [one of those] "visitation nightmares" the same night my wife's mark appeared? One more just for good measure. When my son was sixteen (six years ago) he came down for breakfast one morning disturbed and confused about two scars he had discovered just above his knees. He hopped up on our kitchen counter and said, "Hey dad, look at these." He was wearing shorts and when I looked what I saw were two completely healed (and very neat, clean) scars that looked for all the world like 'surgical scars' because they were so very straight, clean, and defined. I'm not going to bore you with a long story, but suffice it to say that my son has never had knee surgery (although he suffered from knee pain all his life. And he has never again complained about pain in his knees since the discovery!) and that this too was accompanied by a nightmare the night before that my son recounted about 'silver subway cars' and 'being carried away by for kids that all looked the same' and how he was so scared because they "did something to me." etc. We all have scoop marks as well. I could go on here quite a bit about the "physical" aspects of this that have convinced me that something real world, real time, and physical is not only interacting with us, they leave behind evidence on our bodies. >What you describe is in fact a shifting from one >frame of reference(OOBE) to another (alien abduction), No. You are trying to put the round peg I put out there into a square hole! I told you that I am an experienced meditator. Over seventeen years worth and (daily) I am -very- familiar with altered states. Some (not all) of what I recall happened in the light of full waking consciousness. It is why those memories never left me. They left a deep impression, and defied explanation for almost all of my life. Take my word for it Paul, I'm capable of telling the difference between an "altered mental state" and a "real event", why is that so hard for people to accept? Everyone insists that, "Well John, after all, it -must be- something else!" Well it's not! It's exactly what I say it is, I was there, I saw, I felt, I heard, I remembered! Unless you have a convincing arguement why I shouldn't trust my own faculties and senses then I stand my ground. If I thought that what I remembered was a purely psychological or spiritual issue you wouldn't know me and I'd be happily babbling away to some shrink about it. But that's not the case Paul. I'm a (fairly) sane, stable and self actualizing individual and I -know- what has happened to me and what I have remember for all my life as real but unexplainable events. Why are UFO/alien "real events" any different from any of the other "real events" in my life? I remember them both the same. It is only 'other people' who make a distinction between them, not me. >moreover, you came to make that shift because of influence from >outside (you were given "the pattern"), from someone who may not >have a clue about what this experience is like from the inside. You know Paul, this one is just a thinly disguised insult. 1. I am not now, nor have I ever been a 'follower' or 'easily influenced.' I am a very headstrong and self-directed individual with healthy and functional critical abilities. 2. I remember "grey men with big black eyes" since I was a small child. I'm 49 where was your "outside influence" coming from in the early fifties? About the wierdest thing I was exposed to back then was Andy Devines cat "Midnight" He used to dress it up in strange costumes and then strap it to a turntable and spin the cat while he played music! If you're telling me that Midnight the cat is the basis of all my abduction related memories you may have an arguement, it -was- a pretty disturbing thing to see. <G> 3. No-one "gave me the pattern." When I read the accounts of the abductees for the first time I recognized it immediately [from my own] lifetime of experiences and memories. Nobody put it there or suggested it! IT WAS ALREADY THERE PAUL. That set of memories was in place long before I ever encountered abduction related anything. 4. We're not (all) as gullible as many would like to think. Besides I'm not an easy mark for that kind of crap. Among my functional equipment I also have an excellent bullshit detector. But to answer your "real" question,... No, Budd [nor anyone else] didn't "plant patterns" or try influence me. I recognized the elements of the "pattern" Paul because they -happened to me- not because I read it or heard it somewhere. >Like you, I do. And like you, the entities I have seen look solid, >can touch me (and bite and scratch) and I can touch them. But >even your experience of touching something solid in "real, waking >life" is a mental effect, John. The experience is put together >inside your brain. OK, then let me hit you in the mouth as hard as I can with a 38 ounce Louisville Slugger and then on our way to the hospital you can tell me [if you can] what part of the experience was just something that was "put together in your brain!" <G> From my side of the fence it's a fair analogy. >Now, I don't know what these entities truly are, I'm keeping my >powder dry on that issue, Prudent,...smart! >As for the physical body being visible when in an OBE state, >that's by no means always true. I have just completed a survey >of the OBE literature, and quite a few of the leading lights >in OBEs or "astral projection" (that's the Theosophical belief >frame for the experience, now a bit out of date) never could see >their bodies. Their beds seemed empty. On a wall about four feet away from me are a few certificates that I've picked up along the way. One of them is a letter from the United Lodge of Theosophists. I was a student and a member for some seven years. When I said in my last post that what was happenening to me was "abduction related and not what is taught or described by the mystics it is based on an -intimate- and broad knowledge of the material. Like I said Paul, I -know- the difference. No cigar here either. >As for physical marks, well, I think they could be explained by >several approaches. The one that is always conspicuosly absent is, -we are telling the truth and we got them where and how we say we got them.- It's amazing how -that one- never makes it to the table. >But one, at least, is a form of stigmata. Show me just one example of "stigmata" that leaves a permanent crater in your skin! Show me just one "stigmata case" that mimics -any- of the marks found on the bodies of abductees. Also, "stigmata" by definition 'appear' disappear, and then reappear again. The marks on our bodies appear overnight and stick around for a lifetime. I think comparing what we have to "stigmata" is a case of 'mistaken identity' >In tribal societies, as I have also written elsewhere on this >list (I do hope you catch some of this stuff, John - it is relevant to >you and your co-experients), the shaman can sport marks and wounds >he claims were inflicted on him my spirits while on his out-of-body >journey. I have seen some of the anthropological photos of this. I guess if you gave me enough psilocybin, or kava-kava root I'd pick up a few marks myself! <G> >What you describe shows quite clearly that you are prone to these >states of consciousness, John, but that of course does not make >your * experiences* any less valid or realistic. For someone who has never met me that's a pretty heavy diagnosis! How on Gods' good earth could you possibly know what I'm "prone to" or not? Do you freelance on the psychic hotline? >It is such a pity so few people seem to want to know of the middle >way between naive literalism and out-and-out debunking in these >matters. I like that Paul! Nice capper. First we're all mis-interpreting our experiences, then - we are all such easily influenced and weak minded boobs, that possibly all of our memories are the result of "outside influence" and now,. . . the creme de la creme,---we're "naive" What a neat package! Misunderstanding, easily influenced, and naive! Paul my man, if it helps you to get through the night to believe that, then you have my blessings. If you really believe it, you have my sympathy. If my experiences were "something else" then I'd simply say so. My experiences and memories are what they are and what I have reported. You can dance around it all you want, it just is what it is. Maybe one day you'll consider including in your list of possible explanations, "we are simply telling the truth and reporting what we remember." I came by my views the hard way Paul. I was not prepared to accept alien abduction as an explanation either, but after recieving confirmation after confirmation of the physical nature of these encounters it's hard for me to deny it. I've seen classic flying saucers close up in broad daylight with other witnesses. I'm not a "UFO believer", like Mr S says, "I'm a UFO -KNOWER!" Respectfully, John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Re: UFO Database interest From: JJ <fierycelt@full-moon.com> [Jennifer Jarvis] Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 20:23:06 +1030 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 12:28:11 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Database interest >Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 09:33:46 -0600 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, >From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Database interest <much text edited here> >We have no control here, but we will get as much as we can. After >all, the people who donate the data can also use the database, so >it still serves their own selfish needs. <much text edited here> >Thanks. >Joel Henry" Hello Joel, I am an "amateur" UFO Researcher. (The definition of "amateur," as given in the Oxford Dictionary, is "one who practises a thing only as a pastime, esp. UNPAID player etc." A "professional" researcher would be one who "performs for monetary reward?") I was wondering for what purpose this aforementioned possible UFO Database is being compiled. With that statement, what I am trying to ask is this: "What is the ultimate goal of UFO Research?" Is it to try and discover some sort of pattern to the activity of the Extra-Terrestrial Visitors that are CURRENTLY visiting our planet? Is it to try and discover some sort of HISTORICAL pattern to the activity of said visitors? If these are the reasons, whence to we go from there? What will we gain from this database? What is the next step? I know of a gentleman in England who has researched UFO sightings dating back to the late 19th Century. He has discovered patterns to the UFO activity all around our planet, and has formulated charts and graphs which, as I have found through working "in the field," are most helpful in determining the optimumum dates and times for possible UFO activity in a given area. Also, when I have a sighting, I carefully log the time, date, duration etc., and feed that information back to this gentleman, so that he can add this to his database, thus making his prediction system even more accurate. I have used these charts in Canada, the United States and England with excellent results, meaning that the Unconventional Flying Objects/Nocturnal lights or whatever, appear to arrive and depart "right on schedule." It is as if I were using a timetable for a bus or train, except that, the vehicles involved do not appear to be from "around here." I have also had feedback from other people around the world to whom I have sent specially generated customized charts and graphs for their specific areas. Here again, the dates and times predicted have been VERY accurate. Of course, how we use such information is left to our "consciences," and, maybe, certain people and agencies may use said information for the "wrong reasons." I use the charts to enable me to go and see these "unconventionals" without the inconvenience of having to wait around on the "off-chance" that something MIGHT appear. Very useful in our cold Canadian winters. But, even then, I ask myself, "Why AM I doing this?" Maybe that is the secret to the whole story. Humans have a need to ask questions. To be ever seeking. But, questions just produce more questions. Will we ever have the answers? Thank you for your time. Very best wishes. Jennifer
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 06:42:01 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 12:37:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony Regarding... >From: fergus@ukraine.corp.mot.com [George Fergus] >Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:22:45 -0600 (CST) >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony George wrote: >>He's flying "at about 160 degrees south" and in his Blue Book report >>claims, "I observed a chain of nine peculiar looking aircraft flying >>from north to south at approximately 9,500 ft elevation and going, >>seemingly, in a definite direction of about 170 degrees". >>This places Arnold and the objects on an almost parallel course. >I don't think this is right. Since Arnold states elsewhere that he >was originally flying due east, I took it that Arnold's mention of >"160 degrees south" was in reference to the mystery planes, not his >own, and that he probably meant to say "as the planes came to the >edge of Mt. Rainier". George, I've listened to the radio interview again and Arnold does indeed say "planes". This clears up an apparent anomaly - thanks - and the transcript (which in defence I didn't make!) should therefore read: "Well, as the planes come to the edge of Mt. Rainier flying at about 160 degrees south, I thought I would clock them because it was such a clear day...". >Also, I am not sure how much credence we should give to his estimate >of the objects' flight path as either "160" or "170" degrees south. >Since he thought the objects were flying among the mountain peaks >many miles distant, it is unlikely that he could have made such a >precise estimate of their direction of flight solely from his own >observations. More likely, he simply drew a mental line from Mt. >Rainier to Mt. Adams, originally estimating it as 160 degrees and >later correcting it to 170 degrees after he had a chance to measure >it on a map. I would agree that Arnold's estimate shouldn't be taken as exact. >As I suggested yesterday, if the objects were really large birds >such as pelicans, and were actually much closer to Arnold than he >thought, then the explanation for why he did not eventually catch up >to the slower-flying birds may be that it wasn't until after they >crossed his flight path that he "turned the plane around and opened >the window" to get a better look at them, This was essentially my conclusion, if the objects were a formation of birds. >Arnold was flying East towards Yakima and if the objects were closer >than he realised - Arnold having assumed they must be jet planes and >perceiving them to be substantially larger and much further away, >then the objects must still have been travelling fast enough to pass >from Arnold's left, cross his flight path and continue moving south, >before Arnold would have come close enough to realise what that they >truly were. >At the point when Arnold decides to clock their speed, the formation >of birds would still be travelling south and away from Arnold. That's the exact scenario and it seems Arnold didn't turn his plane until after the objects had crossed his flight path. >So he was actually heading southwest at this point, more >perpendicular than parallel to the flight path of the objects, and >thus on a divergent course. Yes, that appears to be the situation, Arnold later writing, "as they were travelling perpendicular to my path I was in an excellent position to clock their speed and I determined to make an attempt to do so". >Remember, he was not trying to follow the objects, which he thought >were fast & distant, but was simply trying to orient his plane so as >to get the best view of them. (He was not concerned about getting >back to his eastward course right away, since on every flight in that >area he already spent "an hour or two" looking for a lost plane.) >At this point, concentrating on identifying the objects themselves, >he might have lost sight of them before he could realize that his >line of sight to them was now moving in the wrong direction relative >to Mt. Adams. Precisely. It's a possibility to consider. >According to this scenario, Arnold's best observation of the >"pelicans" would have been from the right rear, rather than from the >side. My questions are: >What does a pelican look like from this angle? Conceivably like wings with no tail. >Would they spend most of their time gliding? That's a distinguishing characteristic. As previously referenced from 'The Birds' - "pelicans travelling in formation... employ gliding flight - several strong wing strokes and a glide". >Exactly how did Arnold determine the 3-D shape of the objects, if he >only saw them edge-on? (within 2 degrees of horizontal, as estimated >by Dr. Maccabee) He claimed to have observed their overall shape when they "fluttered and sailed", etc. His estimate of length to width ratio here is open to interpretation. Although his original claim was a respective ratio of 20:1, that's disputed by Bruce and it's also at odds with Arnold's later sketch which shows a ratio of 3:1. This is the difficulty with the case, Arnold's later claim of light reflecting onto his plane from objects over a hundred miles away is also doubtful in the extreme and if they were so far away at first and he only observed them for 2-3 minutes, it makes the total distance they travelled even greater. We can place a number of interpretations on Arnold's claims of distance, speed, altitude, ratio, but the distinctive flight characteristics he described might be a significant clue. The one question I wanted to answer was whether a formation of pelicans in echelon could have deceived Arnold, or whether there was sufficient evidence to confirm this was absolutely impossible. The main objection seems to be that as Arnold turned his plane to fly south, he should have caught up with the formation of birds. In his radio interview, Arnold said: "Well, uh, I uh, it was about one minute to three when I started clocking them on my sweep second hand clock, and as I kept looking at them, I kept looking for their tails, and they didn't have any tail. I thought, well, maybe something's wrong with my eyes and I turned the plane around and opened the window, and looked out the window, and sure enough, I couldn't find any tails on 'em. And, uh, the whole, our observation of these particular ships, didn't last more than about two and a half minutes...". Arnold says he turned his plane around, as you noted, and I would have taken this to mean he turned back west. In Arnold's official report, he wrote, "I observed these objects not only through the glass of my airplane but turned my airplane sideways where I could open my window and observe them with a completely unobstructed view". It isn't really clear what "sideways" means. Anyhow, in the first statement, Arnold confirms he had been clocking the objects as they flew south and spent some time looking for evidence of tails _before_ he turned his plane around. By this time, the objects would obviously have travelled further south and at no time does Arnold indicate he followed their southbound course for too long. It's not certain he followed their course at all. _If_ he turned his plane 180 degrees to observe the objects through his left-hand side window, then he presumably had by then passed the objects which were travelling at 160-170 degrees south, which must imply they had been relatively close to his plane. I wonder if by "sideways", he means that he did briefly turn around to view the objects unobstructed, i.e., from the other side to which he was flying. Bruce had asked, "you should check with the bird experts to find out how high the pelicans typically fly....or maximum height and speed". That's been done. He also wrote: "Arnold started timing when the first object passed the southern edge of Mt. Rainier. Objects, if initially at the distance of about 20 miles, traveled the distance of about 50 miles (45 +5) to disappear near Adams in a mere 102 seconds for a rate calculated at about 1760 mph. In so doing, the sighting line from Arnold to the objects rotated southward by about 65 degrees. The same angle would be crossed for objects initially at 3000 ft distance if they were traveling at about 1760 x 3000/(20 x 5280) = 50 mph. Hence here is a real speed number the Superpelicans must match". Superpelican speed capabilities confirmed. And Bruce also acknowledges, "True, we don't know when he turned". We also don't seem to know how he turned. What I do now know is where I had seen the evidence for Arnold's claimed airspeed. In "Resolving Arnold - Part 2: Guess Again", Kottmeyer writes, "The plane was traveling at about 100 m.p.h., according to Arnold�s Congress memoir". Is the main objection still therefore a barrier? If we could summarise, what remain the major problems with this theoretical explanation? James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 06:41:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 12:38:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony Regarding... >Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 14:09:01 -0800 >From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony Ted wrote: > Our glider pilot states: > "Visibility depends on several factors. The one having the most > effect of course is how much "haze" or other particulate matter > is in the air (i.e. smog, smoke). At low altitudes, visibility is > lowered because of this. However, at higher altitudes, something > like the white body of a pelican contrasts nicely with the blue > sky. > Myself, (a pilot with average eyesight) I can distinguish the > basic shape (a body with wings) of these pelicans from about 4 > miles when flying above the haze. From 4 to maybe 6 miles they > become small dots. Beyond that, I'd say they would probably not > be distinguishable other than some sort of relative motion that > may catch your eye".---snip--- > Also, the evidence isn't mine, I'm merely highlighting some > observations and relevant opinions and how they might relate to > the Arnold case.---snip--- >What is most debatable is James's ability to research and analyze the >data available and his ability to keep the scope of his positions >wider than each specific point he is discussing. Ted, This data is only available because I researched it. As for analysing and discussing it, didn't you read what I wrote to Bruce? : "Overall, I would be interested in your general observations based on the more accurate data now available". I also made it clear I was interested in whether a conceivable case could be made that Arnold's UFOs were a flock of birds - the discussion started with Kottmeyer's article - and latterly, whether they might have been a formation of American White Pelicans, as suggested by some knowledgable birdwatchers. But also that, "I obviously wouldn't wish to "make it fit", if it clearly doesn't". Your point was apparently that the estimate of visibility mentioned by the glider pilot was perhaps excessive. You state, "To identify a big bird it would have to eclipse an area of the retina of some 10 by 10 cells or so having an angular diameter of +- 10 minutes. This would place a pelican LESS than 1/2 mile away or 1/8 of the distance claimed by the pilot of the glider". What exactly are you claiming; that against a background of blue sky, it's impossible to recognise that a predominately white bird, with a ten foot wingspan, _is_ a large bird - unless it's within a half mile radius? If our glider pilot doesn't realise that the accompanying pelicans and his plane are separated by only 1/8 of the distance he believes, we can only be thankful that travelling at over 50 mph, he managed to avoid hitting any of the 30lb+ birds. Wouldn't he also have noticed a slight problem as the birds suddenly zoomed into view 8 times faster then he expected? >If James would do some basic science, he would understand the >treachery of static estimation of distance. And he certainly would >have refrained from the embarassment of submitting the pilots story >as supporting evidence. As noted, the glider pilot's comments were obtained as a highly relevant contribution to the discussion - how many pilots do you know who have been joined in flight by a gregarious flock of pelicans - and mentioned as such. On the basis of your claims, I would certainly be embarrassed to ask if he realised he was a menace to other pilots and local wildlife. >As I have written before, any modest motion of a meter or so of >Arnold's plane PERPENDICULAR to the geometric plane of their flight >paths would have made it easier to distinguish big birds near the >plane from big flying craft closer to the mountains. Arnold did have >a convenient and familiar tool for crudely judging distance that a >static observer would not have. Arnold made the leap of logic from geese to jet planes. It the birds weren't geese, but much larger and predominately white birds, as Kottmeyer theorised, how might Arnold have perceived the noticeable bird-like movements. Would he have realised these were birds due to the relative perpendicular motion, or could he possibly - still thinking jet planes - have attributed this to the planes weaving in and out of the mountaintops, sometimes apparently going down into canyons and generally flying like a saucer would if you skipped it across water? >These are just two of the many faulty points that James has been >making in this thread. Your two "faulty points" are not points I have ever made. You are confusing this with points you would like to make. >You have several accounts of what happened from Arnold himself, yet >you apparently haven't attempted to synthesize a best-fit time and >position chart over a reasonably detailed map of what might have >really happened. We have discussed more than you imply and covered some of this ground. >I am sure that Bruce and others here would love to collaborate with >you in doing this, sharing what they have already done and debating >the accuracy of Arnold's estimated distances and bearings. Err...I thought that's what had been debated. One of the difficulties is that ufology is predominately like a religion and sacrosanct beliefs are zealously guarded. It tends to show through during some correspondences, especially when accused of being a "debunker". I'm not burdened by any such faith, so it does occasionally annoy people, like yourself I suspect, when certain beliefs are challenged, even as a "what if" scenario, >If Arnold did see the objects with a large aspect ratio and they were >big birds, he would be so close to them that in a couple of minutes >they would have gone from way ahead of him to way behind him even if >they were flying in the same direction. This is the one unavoidable >characteristic necessary for them to be birds that is not reported. They weren't flying in the same direction, but if you're interested in further comments re this point, see my reply to George Fergus. >If you merely desire to discredit Arnold, then why go through all >this work? If you would even begin to believe I would wish to see Arnold discredited, you either haven't read the material, or comprehensively fail to understand it. >Simply declare that it never happened. That what never happened? James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Mexico - A Magnet For UFOs, Experts Say From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 12:51:15 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 12:39:26 -0500 Subject: Mexico - A Magnet For UFOs, Experts Say Found On CNN's site. URL: http://cnn.com/WORLD/americas/9712/05/RB001749.reut.html Mexico a magnet for UFOs, experts say 5 December 1997 Web posted at: 20:35 ART, Buenos Aires time (23:35 GMT) ACAPULCO, Mexico (Reuters) - Mexico has long faced resentment in the United States for exporting illegal aliens, but since 1991 the country has faced its own alien invasion -- by extraterrestrials, that is. That is the claim of UFO experts who are gathering in this Pacific resort city for the Second World UFO Congress, which started Friday and runs through Sunday. The first congress was held here 20 years ago and featured a lecture by the late astrophysicist Carl Sagan. No one at this convention can match his scientific credentials, but some UFO proponents here, such as nuclear physicist and author Stanton Friedman, take a scientific approach. Organizers said the convention returned to Mexico in large part because over the past six years the ancient land of the Aztecs and Mayans has become a frequent stopping place for extraterrestrials. It all stems from the eclipse of the sun on July 11, 1991, according to Jaime Maussan, Mexico's leading "ufologist" who conducts a television program on the phenomenon. That was the most highly watched eclipse of the century, and of all the countries in the world, Mexico had about the best vantage point. Reports of UFO sightings during the eclipse poured in from around the country. "We can only speculate" as to the reason why they chose Mexico, Maussan told Reuters. "It could be because of the Mexican people themselves, for their characteristics, for their acceptance, their lack of fear. "The only thing for sure is that something strange is happening in the skies of Mexico," he said. It is not just Mexicans who attest to the trend. Another true believer is Wendelle Stevens, 74, a retired U.S. Air Force colonel sometimes called the "grandfather of world ufology." "This is the biggest wave in the world developing here now, starting in 1991 and continuing until this year," Stevens told Reuters. "It's the biggest wave of all time." There is a steady flow of UFO sightings in Mexico, where radio and television shows regularly feature witnesses who produce videos and photographs of flying saucers and other vessels. "There was a triangular object seen flying over Mexico City just two weeks ago," Maussan said. "Another one was seen flying over the skyscrapers about three months ago." Copyright 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. =A9 1997 Cable News Network, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Terms under which this service is provided to you.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Lunar Prospector's Aim Permanent Human Base From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 13:18:53 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 12:40:08 -0500 Subject: Lunar Prospector's Aim Permanent Human Base Found at the site of the Nando Times. URL: http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/health/120697/health33_11531_noframes. html Earth looks back to moon for exploration Copyright =A91997 Nando.net Copyright =A91997 Scripps-McClatchy Western =B0Read Nando's The Latest from Space SACRAMENTO, Calif. (December 6, 1997 01:35 a.m. EST http://www.nando.net) - Earth's most familiar celestial neighbor gets fresh scrutiny next year in the first space mission dedicated solely to the moon in 25 years. A small spacecraft dubbed Lunar Prospector is scheduled to be launched on Jan. 5 from Florida. A spinning cylinder that looks like a drum, the satellite will circle the moon from pole to pole for a year or so, its instruments searching for frozen water and elements that could support a permanent human base. The craft will be controlled by a Bay Area team based at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Ames Research Center at Moffett Field. To those who would ask, "Don't we already know a lot about the moon?" the scientists say, "Not really." The Apollo missions that put astronauts on the moon six times focused on a belt around the equator, the safest place for people should they require an emergency trip home, said G. Scott Hubbard, mission manager for Lunar Prospector. "We know a great deal about that part of the moon, but we don't have the global picture," said Hubbard, who is deputy director of space at Ames. "We don't know for sure that those things are typical of the moon as a whole. It's like we have rocks from Texas and you assume from that that you know what the rest of the Earth is made of." The most intriguing question that Lunar Prospector is meant to answer is whether the moon has water. Common images of the moon show an arid surface, but a scientist as far back as 25 years ago postulated that a crater permanently in shadow would hold water ice. In 1994, scientists analyzing data from a U.S. Department of Defense lunar satellite called Clementine saw suggestions that ice left by passing comets might be contained at the south pole in a crater that never sees sun. Scientists reading the shape and strength of radio waves beamed into a dark depression said the waves may have bounced off water ice. Other radio probes since then have produced conflicting information. Lunar Prospector's team hopes to settle the matter. Hubbard said the craft will use a neutron spectrometer to take a direct reading. The tool will measure the movement of neutron masses present everywhere on the moon. Created by the continuous bombardment of cosmic rays on the moon's surface, neutrons travel quickly through dry material, and slowly through water. If frozen water exists in the quantity some suspect, the neutron spectrometer should be able to detect it unambiguously, Hubbard said. "People say there could be a billion tons of ice." If that's true, "people can have dreams about making a lunar base, manufacturing water and oxygen and so forth," Hubbard said. While there are no solid plans for colonizing the moon, NASA's 1996 Strategic Plan includes this goal: "Explore and settle the solar system. ... Enrich life on Earth through people living and working in space." Michael J. Drake, director of the University of Arizona's Lunar and Planetary Laboratory, called the moon a natural base. "While Mars is a very exciting place, and ultimately the place, that people will want to go and live, we will want to go to the moon first. It's only five days away." Besides looking for water, Lunar Prospector will watch for volcanic eruptions and quakes; record the moon's fields of gravity and patches of magnetism; and identify and measure geologic elements. The information will allow scientists to draw maps of the moon in unprecedented detail, and give them clues to the origins of the moon and Earth. It's not that the moon has been ignored since the heady days of moonwalks in the late 1960s and early '70s. There was the Clementine mission in 1994 - which had a primary goal of testing Star Wars technology - and four years before that, a flyby by the spacecraft Galileo, on its way to Jupiter. The appeal of a new moon mission was in large part a desire to demonstrate NASA's new motto, "Faster, Cheaper, Better." Costing $63 million, Lunar Prospector was the first of the so-called Discovery-class missions chosen in competition against other proposals for trips to space priced at $200 million or less. Showing that worthy space exploration can be done without breaking the treasury is, in fact, the prime goal of Alan Binder, Lunar Prospector's chief scientist. "I believe the demonstration of this small, simple project is the main point," said Binder, a planetary scientist affiliated with Lockheed Martin in Sunnyvale, maker of the launch vehicle. "Clearly, I have to get good scientific data to prove the point." Ultimately, Binder would like to see lunar exploration done commercially. He recently founded the Lunar Research Institute, based for the moment in his Gilroy home, toward that goal. But first, Lunar Prospector must fly successfully. Binder said going low-budget means forgoing some measure of reliability. Normally, he said, NASA demands 99 percent reliability. For Discovery missions, the standard is 95 percent - meaning one out of 20 can be expected to fail. Binder said the launch vehicle is the main potential weak point, because it is relatively untested and employs new software. To keep the mission cheap, he said, only one version of the spacecraft was built, with no backups of anything. Prospector is made with technology that has been used before, though in different configurations. Powered by batteries recharged by the sun, the craft is so simple that it won't even carry a computer on board. A "command-data handling unit" will take directions from Mission Control, one command at a time. By EDIE LAU, the Sacramento Bee Copyright =A91997 Nando.net Do you have some feedback for the Nando Times staff?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Alien Doctor On Uranium Diet Fails To Cure Elderly From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 13:25:53 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 12:43:24 -0500 Subject: Alien Doctor On Uranium Diet Fails To Cure Elderly Found at the site of the Nando Times. URL: http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/health/120597/health23_2546_noframes.h tml Alien doctor on uranium diet fails to cure elderly Copyright =A91997 Nando.net Copyright =A91997 Agence France-Presse PESCARA, Italy (December 5, 1997 5:59 p.m. EST http://www.nando.net) - Two elderly Italians paid out more than $367,000 on uranium to feed an extra-terrestrial doctor they had been told would cure their ailments. Police said three tricksters persuaded the women that the alien, called Sagyr, could cure them provided he was given uranium for nourishment. They eventually forked out $391,040 before, having failed to spot any improvement in their infirmity, deciding to call police. The fraudsters were Friday jailed by a court in this central Italian city to 30 months and fined $940 each. Copyright =A91997 Nando.net Do you have some feedback for the Nando Times staff?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 NASA Refutes Challenge To Its Theory On Martian From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 13:59:32 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 12:46:11 -0500 Subject: NASA Refutes Challenge To Its Theory On Martian URL: http://www.dallasnews.com/national-nf/nat51.htm Scientists dispute finding of life on Mars NASA says challenge to fossil discovery in meteorite isn't significant 12/04/97 By Alexandra Witze / The Dallas Morning News Scientists taking a new look at the most-famous Martian meteorite contend that it doesn't contain fossilized life from Mars, as NASA scientists reported last year. The new work - published Thursday, along with a rebuttal from the NASA team - suggests that tiny, wormlike structures in the meteorite ALH84001 thought by some to be ancient bacteria, are fractures in the rock's crystals, said John Bradley, the study's lead author. "I think this is a big blow" to the case for life on Mars, said Dr. Bradley, a materials scientist at MVA Inc., a consulting and research firm in Norcross, Ga., and at the Georgia Institute of Technology. "There's a whole population of nonbiological things in this rock that look just like 'worms' [bacteria] but have nothing to do with 'worms,' " he said. But the NASA scientists, who announced in August 1996 that the potato-sized meteorite contains traces of ancient life, disagree. Their page-long response appears Thursday in the scientific journal Nature, alongside the page of results from Dr. Bradley's team. "I don't think this is a serious challenge," said Everett Gibson of the Johnson Space Center in Houston, a member of the NASA team. The debate centers on tiny, curving structures in the rock that can be seen only with a special microscope under a thin metal coating. Dr. Bradley's group has studied pieces of ALH84001 using the same kind of microscope as the NASA team. They said they found that many of the wormlike structures were just fractures. Moreover, the metal coating applied by scientists to take pictures of the rock can dry, shrink and crack, forming long, segmented structures that look just like tiny cell walls, Dr. Bradley said. Dr. Gibson countered that his team had been careful not to confuse any metal cracking with true fossils in the rock. The NASA team still believes that they have seen fossils that may not exist in the sample that Dr. Bradley's team researched. The problem now is to distinguish simple cracks from actual life forms, Dr. Bradley said. "It's like looking for worms in a plate of spaghetti," he said. "It's a hell of a lot more difficult now." In the past year and a half, many other scientific teams have published research about ALH84001. Some of those studies rebut the idea of life on Mars, while others support it or aren't conclusive. It may take years before scientists know whether life ever existed in the meteorite, said Allan Treiman of the Lunar and Planetary Institute in Houston. "It's been so difficult to get straight answers out of the rock," he said. =A9 1997 The Dallas Morning News
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Pathfinder Evidence: Life On Mars? From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 14:03:15 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 12:47:02 -0500 Subject: Pathfinder Evidence: Life On Mars? Found at http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmphs0h.htm Pathfinder Evidence: Life on Mars? By PAUL RECER AP Science Writer WASHINGTON (AP) -- Mars was once warm and moist, conditions that make it more likely that the Red Planet could have harbored life, according to researchers who published their findings today from the Pathfinder robot landing mission. "The body of evidence returned by Pathfinder are suggestive that conditions had been conducive for the formation of life early in Mars' history," said Matt P. Golombek, a Pathfinder mission scientist and lead author of a research report in the journal Science. Golombek said several lines of evidence have produced a strong consensus among scientists that Pathfinder landed July 4 on a Martian plain that was sculpted by liquid water sometime in the past and that such water proves the planet once was a warmer, more life-friendly place. Pathfinder and its faithful wheeled rover, Sojourner, found no definite evidence of life. But the report in Science said the spacecraft studies "appear consistent with a water-rich planet that may be more Earth-like than previously recognized, with a warmer and wetter past in which liquid water was stable and the atmosphere was thicker." Finding evidence of liquid water, said Golombek, "is a shot in the arm for the possibility of finding evidence of life. If there was no liquid water, then there would be no need to search for life on Mars." "There's nothing we found that would preclude life on early Mars," said John T. Schofield of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif., which controlled Pathfinder for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. "Because there was liquid water billions of years ago, it is conceivable that there could have been life," said H. J. Moore of the U.S. Geological Survey, one of the principal researchers with Sojourner. Liquid water would mean that Mars was much warmer than the minus-100-degree temperatures experienced by Pathfinder, the researchers say in Science. This, in turn, means that the atmosphere on Mars was then much thicker than now, the researchers say. Moore said Sojourner, the small-wheeled vehicle that roamed for more than 170 feet around the landing site, found a number of rocks that bore a strong resemblance to rocks that on Earth were formed in the presence of water. He said rocks named Shark, Prince Charming and Ender all appear to be conglomerates, or rocks formed of smaller pebbles bound together by a matrix, such as clay. Such rocks are formed by water forces on Earth, Moore said. Some rocks also bore evidence that they may have formed on a lake shore or even underwater, suggesting that water at one time possibly pooled on Mars, Moore added. He said a search for life will be a part of NASA's continuing exploration of Mars. But he warned that "it is very much a crap shoot. Mars is a big place and where would you go to look? It is a very tough question." It is unlikely that a search for life will turn up bones sticking out of Martian sand somewhere. More likely, any Martians that ever lived may have been microscopic, he said. Golombek said it is unlikely there will be final answers about Martian life until samples are returned from there. Even then, finding evidence of life would be only a "very remote possibility," he said. NASA plans to send landers to Mars in 2001 and 2003 that will scoop up samples that may be returned to Earth on another mission now planned for 2005. AP-NY-12-05-97 0152EST Copyright 1997 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. 12/05
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 New Mexico Scientists Seek Life In Martian From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 14:07:02 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 12:48:58 -0500 Subject: New Mexico Scientists Seek Life In Martian >From the Albuquerque Journal's site. URL: http://www.abqjournal.com/scitech/1sci12-01.htm Monday, December 1, 1997 UNM Scientists Seek Life in Rock The Institute of Meteoritics is studying a piece of the Martian meteorite that some think contains evidence of ancient life on the Red Planet By John Fleck Journal Staff Writer The dark spot on Chip Shearer's microscope slide, no wider than a human hair, is tiny stuff to hold a key to one of science's biggest questions: Was there once life on Mars? The spot is a bit of carbon lodged in a crack in a rock. Sliced thin to fit on a microscope slide and magnified by a high-tech electron microscope, the rock's fractured minerals look like ice on a Minnesota lake breaking up in the spring thaw. The rock is a meteorite from Mars, and some scientists believe the carbon is evidence there was once life on that distant planet. Shearer and his University of New Mexico colleagues are working to see if that theory is right. An electron microscope in a University of New Mexico basement magnifies Shearer's spot of carbon into a dark, narrow sinew edged in white, and Shearer huddles before a computer terminal, studying the image. The sinew is made of carbonates, molecules a team of NASA scientists says were created by tiny bacteria that once lived in the rock. Their controversial claim was made in the summer of 1996, setting off a fierce scientific debate. Now, the space agency has turned to Shearer and a handful of other scientists around the country to try to help settle the question of whether the life on Mars claim is right. Shearer and Adrian Brearley, both of UNM's Institute of Meteoritics, are two of 14 scientists whose proposals to study the Martian meteorite won funding earlier this year from the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Along with money, Shearer and Brearley received precious pieces of the rock itself. Shearer is poring over his microscopic images of the little carbonate globs and the glassy minerals around them, trying to understand how they were formed. Were the conditions conducive to life, or was it so hot inside the rock when the carbonates were formed that nothing could have survived? Scientists found the rock on an Antarctic ice field in 1984. By studying its chemistry, they determined it came from Mars, apparently knocked off that planet by a great collision 16 million years ago and sent into an orbit that eventually crossed Earth's path. Shearer's piece is not much bigger in diameter than a pencil. It has been preserved in a microscope slide, and Shearer has placed it in a small chamber that looks like a microwave oven with a chimney. The chimney pumps a stream of electrons onto the sample, and detectors pick up the electrons and X-rays that bounce back, giving Shearer a crystal-clear picture of the rock and its chemical makeup. If it was too hot for bacteria to have survived when the carbonates were formed, scientists say you can rule out the life-on-Mars explanation. Since what has come to be known as NASA's "life announcement," critics have offered up evidence that the rock's minerals could only have formed at such high temperatures. But the question is unsettled, said University of Tennessee meteorite expert Harry McSween, an advocate for the hot-rock view. A "just right" temperature, like Goldilocks' porridge, doesn't prove the life on Mars case, but at least it means life was possible, according to McSween. "It allows the argument to continue," McSween said. Scientists have determined that the rock itself formed 4.5 billion years ago on the surface of Mars, just as the planet was forming. "It's part of the old Martian crust," Shearer said. Since it formed, the rock has been battered one or more times by meteors or other space debris slamming into Mars, cracking and heating the rock and, in the process, creating the minerals found in the rock's cracks that Shearer is looking at. Shearer was actually studying pieces of this same meteorite before "the life announcement," and his analysis of the rock's chemistry has made him one of the leading skeptics of the life on Mars claim. But it's one of the ironies of science that, despite that belief, his new work seems to support the claims of the life on Mars camp. Ed Scott of the University of Hawaii reported evidence earlier this year that glassy minerals found in the rock's cracks could only have formed at high temperatures, suggesting the carbonates formed at temperatures too high for life. Shearer's work suggests Scott is wrong, that the minerals and the carbonates formed at different times, meaning the door is left open for the life on Mars crowd. While that might be seen to conflict with Shearer's anti-life beliefs, that's science, Shearer said -- following the evidence where it leads him. "I just want to reconstruct the history and get out the answer," he explained. Even though his work supports a life-like temperature for the carbonates' formation, that doesn't mean it proves there was life on Mars. Shearer believes the carbonates could have been formed by ordinary chemical reactions, with no bacteria involved. Ultimately, Shearer said, he would be happy to be proven wrong on the question of life in this meteorite. "I'd be very happy if someone confirmed the record of life was preserved" in the meteorite, Shearer said. "I just don't see it." Copyright =A9 1997 Albuquerque Journal
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Just what is an abduction experience? From: ufo1@juno.com [Jack Sargeant] Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 08:17:14 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 12:56:18 -0500 Subject: Just what is an abduction experience? >From: rfsignal@sprynet.com [Cathy Johnson] >Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:07:47 -0800 >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> My compliments to the list and to Cathy. >Dear Paul, > >I would like to thank John for his honest and sincere >sharing of his personal experiences. I would like to >add my own experiences have involved real and solid >objects and beings. There was nothing to do with OBE, >nor dreams, nor hallucinations of any sort. And, my >experiences were ongoing interactive sessions that >I can remember. To Cathy I respectfully request the following... 1. What is an abduction experience? 2. Are they usually remembered? 3. Is it a one-time happening, or an ongoing experience that is repeated time and again? 4. Why are certain individuals singled out for these events? Cathy, once again I have the pleasure of reading of your thoughts and suggestions about approaching this nagging topic of discussion. For the benefit of those who are not as privy to just what is involved in an abduction experience, could you please take the time to explain in your own words what it is like to go through an experience of a nature such as applies to your own? It would seem there is confusion on the part of some as to what actually takes place in the physical sense. Too many want to associate a purely psychological reason for your kind of experience. So, please put the doubting Thomases and arm-chair psychologists into a more enlightened frame of thought. Please explain that it is not just a replacement for some childhood traumatic happening that so many are insistent must be the real solution. You know me, Cathy, and know I am not asking this in a tongue-in-cheek manner. ...But in a legitimate quest to educate those who really don't know what it's all about. Hoping to hear from you soon, I remain, Respectfully yours, Jack Sargeant - Fidonet UFO echo moderator.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Reality Check [was: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s] From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:35:51 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 13:02:58 -0500 Subject: Reality Check [was: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s] > From: rfsignal@sprynet.com [Cathy Johnson] > Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:07:47 -0800 > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> <snip> > I don't want to imply that there is no such thing as OBE, only > that what I experienced had nothing to do with altered states or > drugs. As a matter of fact, I saw four foot tall beings and a > saucer shaped craft in 1952. Those were real objects. So, I > don't believe in the ETH. I know it is true that there are more > than a few occassions when they are visiting on their missions. > Hypothesis..HA! > It is long past due when you should have widened your eyes. You > are going to be in for a serious shock when reality checks in. > Its not a case of what if I am right, or if you are right. It > has nothing to do with us. It is what they are going to do, and > when. > Until, the abductions are continuing as per usual, children > first. A comment on reality checking in: while I have absolutely no quarrel with Cathy regarding the reality of either her experiences, those of John Velez, of Whitley Strieber, or any other abductee, I've always been a bit leary of assertions that someday soon reality is about to check in, ie, these beings are going to "come out", reveal themselves publically, and forever change reality as it exists for our great seething mass of humanity. I say this because, as a reader of some number of books on the topic, and as a lurker here for a couple of years now, one thing that has regularly caught my attention is the fact that case evidence exists that these visitors have been around, doing their abduction thing, and working behind the scenes to nudge things along, for a long, long, long time. Just for example, there are a cases in Strieber's recent book (The Communion Letters) that suggest lines of family abductions stretching back at least 3 generations. And I recall another case reported to this list a year or so ago, of a Florida woman who told a tale of a classic abduction encounter that her grandfather experienced while riding across Texas back in the mid 1800s - it involved a disk, missing time, and a mysteriously discharged shotgun. (I suppose with some effort I could try to dig this out of my PC floppy disk archives if anyone is interested.) But the point is this: whatever else this phenomenon is, it certainly is not new. What is relatevely new, is "extreme" mass communication in the form of books and the electronic media (most recently of course the internet), which disseminates knowledge of the phenomenon far and wide, to many folks like myself who have had no such experiences themselves. Consequently, people like Cathy can now share their experiences with a much much larger audience, much more quickly via the internet and web, than would have been remotely concievable just a few short years ago. Also new is our extremely huge population, many with access to recording media (cameras & camcorders) who can now collect more snippets of evidence than could ever be done before. But all this is US, folks, not "them", and our newfound ability to totally inundate ourselves with information should not mislead us to conclude that things are somehow building to some revelation climax on the part of the visitors. So, although its apparent (to me) that something is going on, its NOT apparent (to me) that any great revelation is just around the corner from the visitors. This of course doesn't exclude potential mindbending revelations from our own side, as the continuing American Computer Company web site saga intimates. One last observation is that folks who predict upcoming paradigm-shifting revelations by the visitors have routinely been made fools of. Sheldon Nidle's 1996 "mass landings", and Dr. Boylan's predictions of 1997 contact announcements spring to mind as ad hoc examples. Of course I realize 1997 isn't quite over yet, and I may yet have to eat those words. But pardon me for not holding my breath. -Brian Cuthbertson PS. My apologies to folks who object to the term "visitors". I had to use something, and that seemed as good as any.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) From: Jilain <jilain@rt66.com> [Jilain Jones] Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 10:24:03 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 13:06:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] >Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 17:45:01 PST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) <big time major snip> >I will let readers of the list familiar with my writing judge for >themselves whether my writing evinces serious mental disorder >-- surely the most unique criticism ever made of it, I must say. <more snipping> >Cheers, >Jerry Clark Hello all :) I have just joined the list, and thus have missed a great deal of this conversation. (Haven't had time to check the archives and catch up on it as yet). But the above statement really caught my eye. It never ceases to amaze me how quickly an "armchair diagnosis" of mental disorder rears its head when dealing with those who investigate any aspect of the ufo/alien phenomenon. I know a gentleman who has been investigating ufos for 30 years or so. He once told me that you will know when you're "hitting too close to home" when people stop debating the data you present and start attacking you personally. I've found that to be a true statement. I personally find the whole thing quite intriguing. Once the personal attacks start, I REALLY start paying close attention to what someone is saying. And I've found that nine times out of ten, the one doing the attacking is reacting to the "hitting of a nerve" by someone else. From there, its generally just a matter of time before there is some indication given as to what the "nerve" is all about. I do have one question: To those who investigate abductions, have you ever had a report of furniture being moved in the home of the abductee? Anyway, I shall go back into lurk mode for a while now. :) See ya around Jilain ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers, And things are not what they seem.~~~ ====Jilain can be reached via email at jilain@rt66.com or via IRC undernet channel #blackvault====
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Evidence For Military Kidnappings Of Alleged UFO From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com>) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 12:17:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 13:12:29 -0500 Subject: Evidence For Military Kidnappings Of Alleged UFO (I am forwarding this from the Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL]. Subscription information is at the bottom of the page. Joseph Polanik) ----- Preliminary Findings Of Project MILAB: Evidence For Military Kidnappings Of Alleged UFO Abductees By Helmut Lammer Ph.D. =A91996 I. Introduction UFO abductions are generally a very strange and complex phenomenon. For skeptics, journalists and the public, it is difficult to believe that abductions by alien beings have their basis in physical reality. Reports of alien beings entering bedrooms through walls, and levitating abductees through closed windows and into a waiting craft are hard to believe for the open minded researcher too. However, well respected researchers have shown that the core of the UFO abduction phenomenon cannot be explained psychologically as hallucinations or mass delusions [1]. The passing decades of abduction research have brought changes as well. Recently, some UFO abductees have reported that they have also been kidnapped by military intelligence personnel (MILAB) and taken to hospitals and/or military facilities, some of which are described as being underground. Very few of the popular books on the subject of UFO abductions have mentioned these experiences. Especially disconcerting is the fact that abductees recall seeing military intelligence personnel together with alien beings, working side by side in these secret facilities. The presence of human military and civilian personnel occupying the same physical reality as alien beings exceeds the mind-sets of the skeptics and the open-minded researchers by several orders of magnitude. The skeptics would rather believe that stories of aliens and military personnel in governmental underground facilities are fabrications designed to elicit attention from conspiracy believers or hallucinations in general. Researchers in the field of mind control suggest that these cases are evidence that the whole UFO abduction phenomenon is staged by the intelligence community as a cover for their illegal experiments to gain respect for abduction research ignore these stories, since they represent only a minor fraction of the cases in their files [3]. I think that abduction cases involving abductee reports of being abducted by the military as well as alien beings, are very important for two reasons: 1.) If the UFO community has evidence that a covert military intelligence task force is involved in the abduction phenomenon, we would know that this phenomenon represents a matter of national security. 2.) The alleged military involvement in the abduction phenomenon could be evidence that the military uses abductees for mind control experiments as test-targets for microwave weapons. Moreover, the military could be monitoring and even kidnapping abductees for information gathering purposes during, before and after a UFO abduction. If either of these points are correct, researchers and victims can expect to run into early resistance when proposing Congressional hearings concerning UFOs and abductions. It is for this reason that I have created Project MILAB and present in this article my preliminary findings of this study. MILAB is the acronym for Military Abductions of alleged UFO Abductees. I reviewed the relevant literature, contacted UFO and mind control researchers, as well as MILAB abductees and mind control victims from all over the world. I have compared my findings with the comprehensive UFO Abduction Study by Dr. Thomas Bullard [4,5], the MUFON Abduction Transcription Project [6,7] and the MIT Abduction Proceedings [1]. II. Helicopter Activity in Connection with MILABs My study indicates that MILAB abductees are harassed by dark, unmarked helicopters that fly around their houses. The mysterious helicopter activity goes back to the late sixties and early seventies, when they showed an apparent interest in animal mutilations, but not in alleged UFO abductees [8, 9, 10]. However, well-known researcher Raymond E. Fowler reports some helicopter activity in connection with UFO witnesses durin abduction cases worldwide from 1968 to 1984. The majority of these cases occurred during the seventies and early eighties [4,5]. I found only 4 abduction cases in Dr. Bullard's study where the abductees saw helicopters over or near their houses. Among these cases is the well investigated Betty Andreasson-Luca abduction. Importantly, these helicopter cases occurred in North America; three within the United States and one in Canada. Curiously, there were also sightings of mysterious helicopters in England during the seventies, but they were not connected with animal mutilations or UFO abductions [12]. I have discovered that the helicopter activity associated with UFO abductions has increased from the eighties to the present day. Dan Wright has ten cases in the MUFON Transcription Project files (at the time of this publication), where helicopters were seen flying in the area of the abductee's home within hours of an alleged UFO abduction [7]. I have also found that many abduction researchers in North America have, on average, about three helicopter cases connected with UFO abductions, in their files. It appears to me that this is a North American phenomenon since none of the contacted researchers in Australia, Africa, Europe and South America have well investigated abduction cases that are connected with helicopter activity. Well-known abductees such as previously mentioned Betty Andreasson-Luca, as well as Debbie Jordan, Kathy Mitchell, Whitley Strieber, Leah Haley, Katharina Wilson, Beth Collins, Anna Jamerson and many more, have been harassed by these phantom helicopters [13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 20]. It is not appropriate to suggest that these helicopters are a nineties version of the black Cadillacs belonging to the Men in Black (MIB) [4], since some abductees have photographs of them and they have also been seen by witnesses who have nothing to do with the UFO phenomenon. [e.g. 10, 13, 18]. In other words, the unmarked helicopters are a physical phenomenon (perhaps contracted by a secr military intelligence task force), while the MIB phenomenon seems to have a paranormal derivation. Let us summarize what we know about the mysterious helicopter activity in five points: 1.) The helicopter activity began during the late sixties to early seventies and seemed to be connected with animal mutilations. 2.) During the above time frame, the helicopters showed only a minor interest in UFO abductees, appearing occasionally after UFO sightings. 3.) The helicopter activity began to increase in relation to UFO abductions during the eighties and up to the present day. However, it also continued to be reported in proximity to animal mutilation sites across North America. 4.) At present, many North American abduction researchers have some mysterious helicopter cases in their files. 5.) There were reports of phantom helicopter activity in England during the seventies, but it seems that their interest in animal mutilations and abductees is limited to North America. III. Alleged Kidnappings by Military Intelligence Personnel Most abductees report interaction with military intelligence personnel after the helicopters begin to appear. Debbie Jordan reports, for instance, in a side note of her book Abducted! [13] that she was stunned by an alleged friend and taken to a kind of hospital where she was examined by a medical doctor. This doctor removed an implant from her ear! The abduction experiences of Leah Haley and Katharina Wilson are full of MILAB encounters [15, 16]. Some of Katharina Wilson's experiences are comparable with mind control experiments. For example, she writes of a flashback from her childhood where she remembers being forced into what appears to be a Skinner Box-like container which may have been used for behavior modification purposes. Because of these types of experiences, Katharina Wilson published an excellent article on her Web Site titled Project Open Mind: Are Some Alien Abductions Government Mind Control Experiments? [19] Beth Collins and Anna Jamerson incl military personnel in their book Connections [17], and the late Dr. Karla Turner investigated MILABs in her books Into the Fringe and Taken: Inside the Alien-Human Abduction Agenda [20]. A worldwide survey revealed that most North American abduction researchers have on average, between two and five MILAB cases in their files. At present, it seems to me that there are no UFO-related MILABs in Australia, South America, Africa, Europe, England or Ireland. I compared typical UFO abduction scenarios that were described in Dan Wright's MUFON Abduction Transcription Project with ten well investigated MILAB victims: Casey Turner, Katharina Wilson, Leah Haley, Debbie Jordan, "Polly," "Pat," "Lisa," "Beth," "Angie" and "Amy." The last six names are pseudonyms of abductees from the late Dr. Karla Turner's book Taken [20]. What I found were many differences between abductions by alleged alien beings and abductions by military personnel. MILABs involve the following elements: Dark, unmarked helicopter activity, the appearance of strange vans or buses outside the houses of abductees, exposure to disorienting electromagnetic fields, drugging, and transport by a helicopter, bus or truck to an unknown building or an underground military facility. Usually after the military kidnappings there are physical aftereffects such as grogginess and sometimes nausea. There is also a difference when the abductors appear. In most UFO abduction cases, the beings appear through a closed window, wall, or the abductee feels a strange presence in the room. Most abductees report that they are paralyzed from the mental power of the alien beings. During MILABs the abductee reports that the kidnappers give him or her a shot with a syringe. It is also interesting that MILAB abductees report that they are examined by human doctor's in rectangular rooms and not in round sterile rooms, as they are described during most UFO abductions [4, 5, 6, 7]. The described rooms, halls and furniture are similar to terrestrial hospital ro s, laboratories or research facilities and have nothing to do with "UFO" f urniture. During a MILAB, the examination is similar as during UFO abductions, however, the MILAB victim is not paralyzed, but rather, tied to an examination table or a gynecological chair. Sometimes, the abductee gets a strong drink before the examination. This is perhaps a contrast-enhancing fluid. MILAB doctors are usually dressed in white lab coats and show an interest in implants as well as gynecological examinations. In some MILAB cases military doctors searched for implants and sometimes even implanted the abductee with a military device. Therefore, surgeons extracting alleged alien implants should be prepared in the event they find military devices since human implant technology is very advanced. IV. Terrestrial Implants To date, more than 3 million animals worldwide have been successfully implanted with an implantable transponder manufactured by Destron-Fearing [21]. The implantable transponder is a passive radio frequency identification tag, designed to work in conjunction with a compatible radio-frequency ID reading system. The transponder is activated by a low-frequency radio signal. It then transmits the ID code to the reading system. The smallest transponder is about the size of an uncooked grain of rice. The transponder's tiny electronic circuit is energized by the low-power radio beam sent by a compatible reading device. A similar bio-chip for humans was developed by Dr. Daniel Man in the United States. Dr. Daniel Man has held a U.S. patent for a homing device since 1989, that can be implanted in humans [22]. He developed the implant for solving the missing children problem. This device is slightly larger than the Destron implant and cannot be injected with a special syringe. Instead, a small surgical incision must be made for it to be implanted. It is important to note, that Dr. Man claims that the best location for his implant may be behind the ear. MILAB abductees like Debbie Jordan ha ars! Dr. Man says that the device is powered by a small battery that can be routinely charged with a device that is held outside the body near the location of the implant. Those individuals in charge of monitoring the implants (and therefore the people) could use three satellites or specially equipped helicopters if they wanted to find a missing person. By using triangulation to follow the signal from the implant, satellites or the helicopters could pinpoint the implant's exact location. Before Dr. Man's device becomes available for use in humans in the United Stat es, it will have to be approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. An agency interested in monitoring physiological information from an abductee during a UFO abduction could use biomedical telemetry. Biomedical telemetry is defined as a special area of biomedical instrumentation that permits the transmission of physiological information from an often inaccessible location to a remote monitoring site [23]. The transmitting unit can be implanted within a subject's body. Animals have been monitored with biotelemetry for about 30 years now. By using telemetric systems as a method of monitoring abductees, the military could obtain physiological data, such as respiration, muscle tension, and the presence of adrenaline in the bloodstream. There is evidence that the military developed Dr. Man's implant technology years ago. Research in the observation and control of human behavior and its possible use in rehabilitation was performed during the sixties. National Security experts like Dr. Steven Metz and Dr. James Kievit predicted in their report The Revolution in Military Affairs and Conflict Short of War for the US Army War College, that in the near future every American at risk could be equipped with an electronic individual position locator device (IPLD) [24]. They suggested that such a device could be permanently implanted under the skin with automatic remote activation upon departure from the United States, while passin through a security screening system at the airport, for example. The predictions by these national security experts resemble the plans of Dr. Joseph A. Meyer, a computer specialist with the National Security Agency (NSA). During the seventies, Dr. Meyer proposed attaching transponders to all Americans arrested for various crimes [2]. During the late fifties and early sixties neuroscientist Dr. Jose Delgado invented the stimoceiver, a electrode capable of receiving and transmitting electronic signals via FM radio waves. Such a device implanted in the brain via the sinus cavity for example, will act as a powerful stimulant when activated by FM radio waves. One can suggest that the stimoceiver has since been modified to receive stimulation from microwave pulses and is capable of wielding a surprising degree of control over the implanted victim's response mechanisms [25]. Implants were being used on unwitting persons as early as fifty years ago. One well documented case of the implantation of an electronic device into a victim is the case of Robert Naeslund. Mr. Naeslund claims that he was unwittingly implanted during an operation in Stockholm, Sweden. He has X-rays which clearly show a mushroom-shaped device in his brain. He claims that the operation was performed by Dr. Curt Strand, who inserted the device in his head through the right nasal passage [26]. The transnasal approach to implants is in common use in Neurosurgery [27, 28, 29, 30, 31]. Interestingly, alien abductees have been reporting since the sixties, how alien beings have implanted them by placing small objects up their noses through the nasal passage and sinus cavity. Alleged alien abductees and mind control victims relay that either alien doctors or human doctors performed these procedures. Robert Naeslund is not alone, he is now a researcher of Gruppen, an organization against illegal mind control experiments. Gruppen and other organizations like the Freedom of Thought Foundation have collected a lot of evidence that ons are in contact with many victims from all over the world who have experienced similar effects as Naeslund, but have nothing to do with the UFO community. V. Virtual Reality Scenarios and Microwave Hearing It appears that some experiences of alleged alien abductees and mind control victims may be explained by an advanced virtual reality technology. The late Dr. Karla Turner called these experiences Virtual Reality Scenarios (VRS) [19, 20]. There are alleged mind control victims who claim that someone implants pictures in their brain [32]. If someone has been implanted with an intracerebral device, then the implant operators may be able to electronically implant pictures and memories into the brain of the abductee. The New World Vistas was a major undertaking for the USAF Scientific Advisory Board (SAB) [33]. This military publication was published in June 1996 and is a forecast of possible military developments over the next 50 years. In this publication, military scientists suggest that the development of electromagnetic energy sources, the output of which can be pulsed, shaped, and focused and coupled with the human body will be able to: 1) allow one to prevent voluntary muscular movements, 2) control emotions and actions, 3) produce sleep, 4) transmit suggestions, 5) interfere with both short-term and long-term memory, and 6) both produce and delete an experience set. The military scientists argue that the concept of imprinting a virtual reality experience set is highly speculative, but nonetheless highly exciting. If such a technology was developed in secret and exists today, the unexplainable vividness of some abduction accounts may be explained by the implantation of an experience set into the brain of an abductee. Dr. Joseph Sharp and Allen Frey experimented with microwaves and transmitted spoken words directly into the audio cortex via pulsed-microwaves. Dr. Frey's work in this field, dating back to the sixties, gave rise to the so called "Frey Effect," which is common in abductees and mind control victims sometimes report that they hear voices in their heads, although they are not schizophrenic. Certainly these scenarios cannot be the case for all UFO abductions like multiple abductions, but it may explain a small portion and may play a significant role in MILABs. VI. Otherworldly Journeys and Underground Military Facilities It is interesting to note, that seven abductees of my test sample claim that they were allegedly transported to a military underground facility. The research of Dr. Richard Sauder showed that almost every federal agency and military institution has several secret underground facilities across the United States. Some of these facilities are so secret that there are only rumors about their existence [36]. Otherworldly Journeys to strange underground places are common in UFO abductions and Dr. Thomas Bullard found a specific pattern in Otherworldly Journeys in his abduction research [4, 5]. 1.) Preparation: The alien beings put the abductee into a protective environment for the trip. 2.) Travel: Actual transit to the Otherworld occurs. 3.) Underground: The abductee passes underground. 4.) Landscape: The abductee sees the surface of the Otherworld. 5.) Museum: The tour of the Otherworld includes a stop at a museum or zoo. In Dr. Bullard's study there are 10 UFO abduction cases where the abductee experienced an Otherworldly Journey in an underworld, during their UFO abduction. A typical Otherworldly Journey is Betty Andreasson's experience in 1950. She experienced seeing a UFO plunge into a sea and come out again, and then enter huge crystalline caverns which broadened into a vast underworld. Less frequently the examination occurs on the Otherworld. During an abduction experience in 1967 Betty Andreasson passed through a long dark tunnel similar to a mine shaft cut out of rock. In addition, Dr. Gilda Moura informed me that she has investigated UFO abduction cases during which abductees reported Otherworldly Journeys into unde hese Otherworldly Journeys are not comparable to well investigated MILAB underground cases. The Otherworldly Journey experiences have a mystical quality, while the MILAB underground experiences seem to be a manifestation in our reality. MILAB abductees describe elevators, hallways, generators, conference and medical rooms. Contrary to experiences during Otherworldly Journeys, if a MILAB abductee is kidnapped to an underground facility, the abductors examine the victims there. Some abductees report Otherworldly Journeys and MILAB experiences separately [16, 20]. Beth, an abductee from Dr. Turner's book Taken: Inside the Alien-Human Abduction Agenda, described flashbacks which began with her seeing a small flying disc and then entering a well lit underground city [20]. The craft flew through a tunnel passage into an enormous cavern that contained several buildings. UFOs were parked in various locations and alien beings were working side by side with human military personnel. In her next flashback Beth somehow flew through a body of water and into a tunnel, and then emerged from a lake. Such flashbacks should be investigated very carefully since they could be a mixture of an Otherworldly Journey (entering a well lit underground city) and a MILAB underground experience (seeing military personnel). It is also important to note that some abductees have flashbacks and they remember aliens and military personnel together, but during hypnosis the abductee remembers only the military personnel [15, 37]. It is possible the abductee mixed an alien abduction experience and a MILAB scenario, or that the abductee underwent some kind of hypno-programming by military psychiatrists during the MILAB. It is also possible that the military is using Electronic Dissolution of Memory (EDOM). This is accomplished by electronically jamming the brain, causing the neu rotransmitter acetylcholine to create static which blocks out sight and sounds. After this mind control procedure a MILAB abductee would have no m f what he or she saw or heard. The mind of the abductee would be blank [2, 19, 25]. VII. Discussion We must consider the possibility that some of the information we are getting from MILAB abductees may be cover stories, induced by the hypno-programming processes of military psychiatrists. There is also the possibility that the military uses rubber alien masks and special effects during a MILAB. MILAB abductee Katharina Wilson reports flashbacks where she remembered holding a rubber mask of an alien head in her hands [16]. Facts such as these lead some mind control researchers to believe that all alien abductees are used in secret mind control and/or genetic experiments staged by a powerful black arm of the United States government [2]. However, I have found some arguments against this over generalization: 1.) If all alien abductions are a cover for secret mind control or genetic experiments like the Lebensborn Project of the Nazis [38], why have abductees only reported military intelligence involvement since the early eighties and not before? We should see the opposite of this, since the mind control technology would be much better in the nineties than it was during the sixties and seventies! 2.) Why are there mind control victims who are implanted and used for secret weapons tests, but have nothing to do with the UFO phenomenon or alien abductions? It seems to me that the "mind control agenda" does not need UFO abductions as a cover story, since nobody believes the claims of ordinary mind control victims in the first place, although they have X-rays where everyone can see anomalous objects in their heads. 3.) If all alien abductions are a cover for mind control experiments, why does the military perform gynecological examinations of female abductees? Serious researchers should investigate all possibilities. Some UFO abductees may indeed be mind control victims or they may have been used in black-ops genetic experiments from the eighties or earlier. However, I think there is anothe in the UFO abduction phenomenon. My preliminary hypothesis for alleged military kidnappings of UFO abductees is as follows: MILABs could be evidence that a secret military intelligence task force has been operating in North America since the early eighties, and is involved in the monitoring and kidnapping of alleged UFO abductees. In the early 1980s, a lot of money became available for top secret military projects like the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI). I believe this secret task force may be financed by a portion of this money that is set aside for SDI. It is no coincidence that the genesis of SDI and the reports of military intelligence personnel interfering with abductees coincide with one another. It seems to me that they are interested in well investigated abduction cases. They monitor the houses of their victims, kidnap and possibly implant them with military devices shortly after a UFO abduction experience. It appears to me that they are searching for possible alien implants as well. Their gynecological interest in female abductees could be explained if they are searching for alleged alien-hybrid embryos. One thing I'm sure of is, this task force and the people who are behind these kidnappings are using advanced mind control technology which is currently being tested illegally on individuals who have nothing to do with UFO abductions. Victims and researchers who are interested in this study or have important information they wish to share can contact me at the following address: Dr. Helmut Lammer Postfach 76 A-8600 Bruck/Mur Austria Email: lammerh@bkfug.kfunigraz.ac.at Dr. Lammer is a scientist with the Austrian Space Research Institute. He is the Austrian representative for the Mutual UFO Network and a member of the Society for Scientific Exploration, SSE. Dr. Lammer has co-authored two previous books with Oliver Sidla. They are UFO Secrecy (Herbig: Munich, 1995) and UFO Close Encounters (Herbig: Munich, 1996). The previous information covering "Project MILAB" is a s which is scheduled to be published in the Autumn of 1997. His current working title is Covert Operations: Military Involvement in Mind Control Experiments and UFO Abductions. Notes: [1] Pritchard, E., David, and Mack, E., John: Alien Discussions: Proceedings of the Abduction Study Conference held at MIT. Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1994. [2] Cannon, Martin: The Controllers: A new Hypothesis of Alien Abductions. http://members.gnn.com/fivestring/idex.htm, (Archives Section), 1989. [3] Personal Communications with Professor David Jacobs, 1996. [4] Bullard, Thomas E.: UFO Abductions: The Measure of a Mystery. Volume 1: Comparative Study of Abduction Reports. Bloomington, Indiana, 1987. [5] Bullard, E., Thomas: UFO Abductions: The Measure of a Mystery. Volume 2: Catalogue of Cases. Bloomington, Indiana, 1987. [6] Wright, R., Dan: Commonalities & Disparities: Findings of the MUFON Abduction Transcription Project. MUFON International UFO Symposium Proceedings, 1995. [7] Personal Communications with Dan Wright, head of the MUFON Abduction Transcription Project, 1996. [8] Adams, Tom: Mystery Helicopters. Paris, Texas, 1993. [9] Howe, L., Moulton: Glimpses of Other Realities. Volume. 1: Facts and Eyewitnesses. Linda Moulton Howe Productions, P.O. Box 538, Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania 19006, 1993. [10] Keith, Jim: Black Helicopters over America-Strikeforce for the New World Order. IllumiNet Press, Linburn, Georgia, 1994. [11] Personal Communications with Raymond Fowler and several publications like: Casebook of a UFO Investigator. Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey, Prentice Hall Inc., 1981. [12] Clarke, David, and Watson, Nigel: Phantom Helicopters over Britain. Fund for UFO Research (FUFOR), P.O. Box 277, Mount Rainer, Maryland 20712, USA. [13] Jordan, Debbie, and Mitchell, Abducted: The Story of the Intruders Continue. Carroll & Graf, New York, 1994. [14] Strieber, Whitley: Breakthrough-The Next Step. HarperCollins, New York, 1995. [15] Haley, A., Leah: Lost was the Key. Greenleaf Public 1993. [16] Wilson, Katharina: The Alien Jigsaw. Puzzle Publishing, Portland, Oregon, 1993. [17] Collins, Beth, and Jamerson, Anna: Connections-Solving our Alien Abduction Mystery. Wild Flower Press, Newberg, Oregon, 1996. [18] Fowler, Raymond: The Andreasson Affair Phase Two. Englewood Cliffs, New York, Prentice-Hall, 1982. [19] Wilson, Katharina: Project Open Mind: Are Some Alien Abductions Government Mind Control Experiments? http://www.alienjigsaw.com, 1996. [20] Turner, Karla: Into the Fringe, Berkley Book, New York, 1992; and Taken: Inside the Alien-Human Abduction Agenda, Kelt Works, Roland Arkansas, 1994; [21] Electronic ID in Horses. Electronic ID, Inc., 131 East Exchange Avenue, Suite 116, Fort Worth, Texas 76106, USA. [22] Laugesen, Wayne: Satan's Leash: The Specter of Biometric Identification. Encounter Chronicles, Issue 17, September 1996. [23] Jutter, C., Dean, Wen, H., Ko., Spear, M., Thomas, Mackay, Stuart: Biomedical Telemetry. Engineering in Medicine and Biology Magazine, March, 1993. [24] Metz, Steven, and Kievit, James: The Revolution in Military Affairs and Conflict Short of War. Strategic Studies Institute, US Army War College, Juli 1994. [25] Bowart, H., Walter: Operation Mind Control: Our Secret Government's War Against its Own People. Dell Publishing Company, New York, 1978. [26] Private communication with Robert Naeslund and: Naeslund, Robert: Letter to Prime Minister Carl Bildt, Stockholm, November 19, 1992. [27] Lindquist, Lennart, Taylor, Evamarie, Naeslund Robert: Cybergods. Gruppen, Stockholm, Sweden, 1996. [28] Hardy, J.: Transsphenoidal Hypophysectomy. J. Neurosurg., Vol. 34, page 582-594, 1971. [29] Griffith, H., B., et al.: A direct transnasal approach to the Spenoid Sinus. Technical note, J. Neurosurg, Vol. 66, page 920-924, 1987. [30] Rabadan, A., et al.: Transmaxillary, Transnasal Approach to the Anterior Clivus: A Microsurgical Anatomical Model. Neurosurgery, 30(4), page 473-482, 1992. [31] Rosenfeld, J., V.: Transnasal Stereotactic Biop urg, Vol. 76(5), page 878-879, 1992. [32] Private communications with alleged mind control victims. [33] New World Visitas: Air and Space Power for the 21st Century. USAF Scientific Advisory Board, June, 1996. [34] Guyatt, David: Some Aspects of Anti-Personnel Electromagnetic Weapons. Earthpulse Flashpoints, Nr. 2, 1996. [35] Constantine, Alex: Psychic Dictatorship in the USA. Feral House, Portland, Oregon, 1995. [36] Sauder, Richard: Underground Bases and Tunnels-What is the Government Trying to Hide? Dracon Press, 1995. [37] Hamilton, F., William III: Alien Magic: UFO Crashes-Abductions-Underground Bases, Global Communications, page: 104-106, 1996. [38] Clay, Catrine, and Leapman, Michael: Master Race-The Lebensborn Experiment in NAZI Germany. Acknowledgements: Walter Andrus (MUFON), Brian Bard, Keith Basterfield, Dr. Richard Boylan, John Carpenter, Dr. Aphrodite Clamar, Padrick J. Delaney (IUFOPRA), Ann Druffel, Prof. David Jacobs, Dr. William E. Jones, Raymond Fowler, Harlan Girard, David Guyatt, Leah Haley, Cindia Hind, Richard Hall (FUFOR), Dr. James Harder, Edmund Light, G. Mackay, Philip Mantle (BUFORA), Dr. Gilda Moura, Robert Naeslund (Gruppen), Dr. Richard Sauder, Derrel Sims, Barbara Spellerberg, Dr. Leo Sprinkle, the late Dr. Karla Turner, Katharina Wilson, Dan Wright head of the MUFON Abduction Transcription Project, and my wife Marion for their help in his project and all the other victims and researchers who participated in this study. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ =A91996 by Helmut Lammer, Ph.D. All Rights Reserved. The preceding is reproduced with permission of the Author. It is forbidden to post any of the materials contained on this site to any newsgroup, web site, or any other electronic medium. Permission is granted to reproduce the above information in printed form, for personal, non-commercial purposes only, provided the information and the copy remain intact and unedited. This paper was published on the web site -- w: True Experiences of Alien Abduction," by Katharina Wilson: Puzzle Publishing, P.O. Box 230023, Portland, Oregon, 97281-0023, USA. The Alien Jigsaw and the "Puzzle Piece Logo" are trademarks of Puzzle Publishing. Back to Home | The Books | Top of Page | Back to the "Articles" or "Between Two Lies" Table of Contents ----- Aloha, He'Ping Om, Shalom, Salaam. Em Hotep, Peace Be, Amen. Adieu, Adios, Aloha. Roads End Kris To subsribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCIBE CTRL [to:] LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Om Search for other documents from or mentioning: jpolanik | lammerh |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: Don Ledger <dledger@istar.ca> Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 15:46:38 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 13:18:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 02:51:30 -0500 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > >From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com> > >Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:42:46 EST > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > >John Velez wrote: > >>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:41:16 -0500 > >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> > >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > >>Until about six years ago I had rationalized my lifetime of > >>unexplained experiences and memories as OOBE's (out of body > >>exp's) vivid nightmares, and several unexplained objects (UFO > >>sightings) I had seen in the sky (throughout my life - beginning > >>in childhood) that simply didn't fit in with anything -I- knew > >>of... > ><mega-snip> > Hi Paul, hi All, > Paul wrote, > >Thank you for your honest account. Most revealing. > Please don't take this remark personally Paul as it is not > directed at you specifically. The reason I wrote that e-mail is > because I'm a little tired of having 'other people' tell me what > I have experienced. > >I am absolutely convinced of your sincerity, and the truth of the > >experiences you describe. But, they are not physical abductions - > >I *promise* you. > I only have a couple of rules that I go by, one of them is, > "never make promises that you can't keep!" <G> Yes, they are > physical Paul. I'll share just one example with you (there are > many) > Several years ago my wife awakened me and she was very alarmed > and upset. As I sat up in bed I noticed that she had drawn the > covers up and exposed her upper thigh so that I could see it. She > was pointing at her leg and crying, "John, what is that, how did > that get there? I didn't have that last night, what happened to > my leg?" She was [seriously] upset and crying. My wife doesn't > get upset real easy, her highly agitated state if taken alone and > out of context was unusual and out of character for her. > On her leg was a very deep (about 1/2 inch) groove, with sharp, > clean edges as if someone had tightened a steel strap around her > leg and the muscle failed to return to it's normal shape. On the > outside portion of the "strap mark" (for want of a better term) > was an indentation the size and shape of a tablespoon. Like a > strap indentation with a huge crater on one side. I was shocked > and at a complete loss for an explanation. > I rushed her over to our long time family physician (an internist > who is also the chief of cardiology at Jamaica hospital here in > NY) who was at a loss to explain it. He said he'd ,"never seen > anything like it!" Before we left the office he even inquired if > I had used something on her during sexual relations. I informed > him that although sex was fun and uninhibited for us it -never- > included any 'aids' or 'toys'! Did I mention I had [one of those] > "visitation nightmares" the same night my wife's mark appeared? > One more just for good measure. When my son was sixteen (six > years ago) he came down for breakfast one morning disturbed and > confused about two scars he had discovered just above his knees. <snipped> > >What you describe shows quite clearly that you are prone to these > >states of consciousness, John, but that of course does not make > >your * experiences* any less valid or realistic. > For someone who has never met me that's a pretty heavy diagnosis! > How on Gods' good earth could you possibly know what I'm "prone > to" or not? Do you freelance on the psychic hotline? Hi John, Paul and List, I have stayed out of this thread since the first, skimming the various thoughts put forward by many of the heavyweights in the business, trying to get a handle on it. I am surprised that it took this long for someone to gently try to prod an abductee with the line that it's all in his/her head. Now really, don't you think Paul that we are well past the point in the abductee phenomenon where we can start tossing that old chestnut around. I think we are. It's like using the Venus theory to explain a football field sized object 100 feet over some witnesses head. It's just too damned simplistic. Two or three years ago I might have been more sympathetic to your theory Paul, but not now. Like many in the UFO field, I have been drawn into the abductee phenomenon by its association with the UFO field. I get calls like everyone else on the subject. I go out for an interview about a sighting then when that's been dealt with there's that uneasiness [you get to recognize it after awhile] that surfaces, the witness getting slightly agitated before telling "the rest of the story". As a researcher you sit there detached, yet facinated, by the details that come out. If you've read up on the subject you start to see all of the usual telltale signs. So then you think, well if I've read about it then so they might have. But after questioning you discover that that this is not something they were even remotely interested in before the event, and that this is not something they want known to any but a few because it can damage careers, or community standing, or for any of a hundred other reasons. Still you wonder, with your wonderful detachment, and your curious little mind, smug in you delightful remote stance, examining the phenomenon at arms length. While you are holding it out in front of you at that "arms length", it comes up and bites you on the ass when one of your own, close in your own family..tells you a story. A grandchild or maybe two reacts unprompted to pictures [on TV or in books] of the "cute little gray guys" in a totally hostile or fearful fashion. Before long six people in your family are relating curious details to you, asking like the strangers do, what happened here. Paul, it's only a matter of time before it happens to you. Or maybe it has. > >It is such a pity so few people seem to want to know of the middle > >way between naive literalism and out-and-out debunking in these > >matters. > I like that Paul! Nice capper. First we're all mis-interpreting > our experiences, then - we are all such easily influenced and > weak minded boobs, that possibly all of our memories are the > result of "outside influence" and now,. . . the creme de la > creme,---we're "naive" > What a neat package! Misunderstanding, easily influenced, and > naive! Paul my man, if it helps you to get through the night to > believe that, then you have my blessings. If you really believe > it, you have my sympathy. Naive! That being the case then there are an awful lot of naive but very intelligent people out there. Many of us are aware of people in highly responsible, high ranking or positions in science that are affected by this phenomenon. I suspect that there are many reading this list right now that are not telling all, in fact I know of a few, as do others. But that is their business. My business is to speak for them in my limited fashion and assure Paul and others that want to treat this as a purely psychological phenomenon, that they are well off the track. I suggest that you cast about you, look in your own families, and you will find that somewhere close to you is someone who has had something "highly strange" happen to them and want some answers. It won't be so easy to blow it off then. > If my experiences were "something else" then I'd simply say so. > My experiences and memories are what they are and what I have > reported. You can dance around it all you want, it just is what > it is. Maybe one day you'll consider including in your list of > possible explanations, "we are simply telling the truth and > reporting what we remember." It's hard, John, to get Occum's Razor to work on our side, meaning the UFO phenomenon and it's associated fields. > I came by my views the hard way Paul. I was not prepared to > accept alien abduction as an explanation either, but after > recieving confirmation after confirmation of the physical nature > of these encounters it's hard for me to deny it. I've seen > classic flying saucers close up in broad daylight with other > witnesses. I'm not a "UFO believer", like Mr S says, "I'm a UFO > -KNOWER!" > Respectfully, > John Velez It has been my experience that those who have had the abduction experience, shop around looking for almost any explanation, short of that they are crazy, to explain what has happened to them before accepting the inevitable explanation, that it really happened. Some choice they have...they were abducted or they're crazy. As for UFO sightings. I recently travelled 4,200 miles across Canada from Nova Scotia to British Columbia to see my second UFO. Get this. I was on my way into a shopping mall to buy film for my camera when I, in company with another investigator, saw it. Broad daylight, 2:00 pm local, beautiful blue sky, estimated altitude of 2,500 to 3,000 feet, white, cigarette shaped object object moving at about 125 to 150 mph. Duration 1.5 to 2 minutes. And I'm out of film. Don Ledger Search for other documents from or mentioning: dledger | jvif |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 6 Re: Fire Balloons & Exeter From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 12:53:29 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 13:51:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Fire Balloons & Exeter >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:34:05 -0800 >Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 11:17:56 -0500 >Subject: Re: 'Fire Balloons' & 'Exeter' >There was one item that I noticed, which is also relevant. >Robinson states: "Data about the distance of the object >from the observers is inherently unreliable due to the fact >that binocular vision is only good out to about 20 feet >unless the object passes directly in front of or behind a >known object." >While he cites no source for this, a standard reference >on optical illusions is Minneaert's "Light & Colour". >LC# 54-10021 >On p 160... >"Street lights farther away than 160-170 yards seem at >night to be all the same distance." We use various methods of gauging distance. Direct determination through parallax between the eyes involves our stereoscopic system. People typically test to 24 arc seconds of stereoacuity. If you use 6 cm as being the distance between the eyes, this works out to most people having their stereoscopic systems operational out to about 500 meters. At that point we can tell that something is closer than something further away, but not necessarily accurately gauge its distance. However, it is simply NOT true that our "binocular system" is only good out to 20 feet, as you ably point out. Robinson obviously doesn't know beans about the subject. >This does not mean that the viewer cannot tell how >far away they are, BTW. Correct. Even when stereopsis breaks down, we use all sorts of other cues to help us determine distance, such as relative size, motion parallax, atmospheric haze, being obstructed by a closer object, etc. Our guesses may not be terribly accurate, but they generaly get us into the ballpark. >Minneaert also states: >"The average uninstructed observer underestimates >all long distances, e.g. a fire at night." >And he describes the Von Sterneck calculation >for correcting for under-estimation beyond 200 yards >(600 feet), which is: >d' = (cd)/c+d >where d' is apparent distance, and c is a constant >varying from 200 yards to 10 miles. >According to "Incident at Exeter" the estimated >distance was 300 feet. This is well within the >Minneart distance, and thus would be perfectly >acccessible to an observer. Thank's for this information. I wasn't familiar with this. David Rudiak
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:52:08 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 10:51:40 -0500 Subject: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass > Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 16:05:36 -0800 > From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass > Sightings > > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 19:02:30 -0800 (PST) > > From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass Sightin gs > > Are you saying, Ted, that there were typos involved in the dates > > of that report from Peterson AFB? In particular, in its sentence > > that reads: > > "The Russians launched a SL-12 (Proton) four-stage rocket booster > > from the Tyuratam space launch facility at 3:49 p.,. EST on Nov. > > 16." > > And in the sentence that reads, "The USSPACECOM Space > > Surveillance Network (SSN) tracked the rocket and boosters > > throughout the first three stages of launch, and observed, > > recorded and reported an object re-entering the Earth's > > atmosphere at 7:49 p.m. EST, Nov 16." > > As you know, the sightings were on the 14th. You seem to be > > saying that this US Space Command Release of Nov. 29th contained > > disinformation. Do you mean that? > > Jim Deardorff > Not at all Jim. You appear to be comparing granny apples to > delicious apples here which is another way of saying that we are > talking about two different launches. I am talking about NORAD > object number 25047 which, as you can see from the OIG report > below was launched on 12 November 1997 and decayed on 15 November > 1997, and your USSPACECOM report delivered through unnamed > channels, is talking about another undesignated launch. Ted, Earlier, the attempted put-downs of these Washington state mass UFO sightings tried to attribute them to a Russian rocket booster, SL-12 (Proton). I'm glad you also realize that it could not have been responsible for any of the sightings. The real point is that certain UFO debunkers had no qualms in assigning all the UFO sightings to this SL-12 booster without waiting for any confirmation from Russia, which of course never occurred. > In fact, the disconnected paragraphs you quote may in themselves be > talking about two different vehicles. The two sentences I quoted from the U.S. Space Command news release of Nov. 29th (made available by Peter Davenport on the National UFO Reporting Center's web site) were separated only by the single sentence: "Aboard the booster was a spacecraft known as the Mars '96 probe destined for the planet Mars." Thus the second sentence I had quoted did refer to the same rocket booster. > [...] > Now back to NORAD object 25047. After my last postings, I dove > into the web and dredged up an orbital element set for it dated > 13 November. Plugging this into a satellite tracking program > revealed that on 14 November 1997 a little after 9:00 pm Seattle > time object number 25047 was expected to be passing just north of > Seattle and very very low in orbit. With this degree of > corroboration, I don't see how we could fail to attribute most of > the reports from the Northwest that night to this SL-12 booster. You ought to read the UFO reports that Davenport made available -- in 28 pages that include the forementioned discussion of the Russian rocket booster launched on the 16th. Most of the reports are of glowing objects that moved across the sky quite slowly, and in formation, taking from 30 seconds to 11 minutes as observed from different locations. They emphasized the slowness (small angular velocity) of the UFOs, because by this feature alone it was obvious, even to non-scientists, that what they saw could not have been re-entry rocket or satellite debris or a meteor shower, either one. Others noted non-linearity in the UFOs' tracks. > Notice how I carefully say "most" above. I also happened to be > listening to the Art Bell show through these events. It seemed > to me that the witnesses may not have all been reporting the same > event. I had the feeling that possibly three different events > were being described. The most commonly reported event was > clearly the reentry of space debris. The debate then seems to be between "most" and "many." As noted in an earlier message, the UFO events may well have occurred near the time at which some booster suffered its final piece of orbital decay, and that need not have been any accident in the timing of the UFO event by the UFO intelligences. It's the events NOT consisting of man-made or natural events that are the concern of this list. Those viewers who assumed it was reentering space junk seem not to have supplied any estimate of total duration of their sighting. Could you help out here by supplying us with your estimate of the most typical angular velocity across the sky, as viewed from the earth's surface, of reentering space junk when it's at its altitude of maximal flaming brightness? If this altitude were taken to be 70,000 ft and if by then the speed of the reentry debris had slowed down to 1/2 of the previous orbital velocity, my rough estimate is that it would take 12 seconds for it to cover a 120 degree arc of the viewers' sky. If the factor of 1/2 were whittled down by an order of magnitude, then some fraction of the reports that emphasized the slow movement might be explained by reentering debris. However, they wouldn't explain the reports which emphasized the excessive amount of such debris that would have been required, or the non-linear movements, or the tails of fire that followed only far behind the leading glowing balls; or the formation maintained by the multiple objects, considering that reentering debris of various sizes and shapes would be moving at different velocities due to their different aerodynamic drags. Jim Deardorff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: UFO Database interest From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 20:45:55 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 10:56:02 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Database interest >Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 20:23:06 +1030 >From: JJ <fierycelt@full-moon.com> [Jennifer Jarvis] >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Database interest <snip> >I was wondering for what purpose this aforementioned possible UFO >Database is being compiled. >With that statement, what I am trying to ask is this: "What is >the ultimate goal of UFO Research?" >Is it to try and discover some sort of pattern to the activity of >the Extra-Terrestrial Visitors that are CURRENTLY visiting our >planet? >Is it to try and discover some sort of HISTORICAL pattern to the >activity of said visitors? > >If these are the reasons, whence to we go from there? What will >we gain from this database? What is the next step? >I know of a gentleman in England who has researched UFO sightings >dating back to the late 19th Century. He has discovered >patterns to the UFO activity all around our planet, and has >formulated charts and graphs which, as I have found through >working "in the field," are most helpful in determining the >optimumum dates and times for possible UFO activity in a given >area. >Also, when I have a sighting, I carefully log the time, date, >duration etc., and feed that information back to this gentleman, >so that he can add this to his database, thus making his >prediction system even more accurate. >I have used these charts in Canada, the United States and England >with excellent results, meaning that the Unconventional Flying >Objects/Nocturnal lights or whatever, appear to arrive and depart >"right on schedule." It is as if I were using a timetable for a >bus or train, except that, the vehicles involved do not appear to >be from "around here." >I have also had feedback from other people around the world to >whom I have sent specially generated customized charts and graphs >for their specific areas. Here again, the dates and times >predicted have been VERY accurate. Hi Jennifer, This all sounds very interesting. Who is this gentleman and has he published a book or something that contains his charts and graphs? How can I get access to that? Thanks a lot in advance. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: UFO Database interest From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 14:16:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 12:12:15 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Database interest >Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 20:23:06 +1030 >From: JJ <fierycelt@full-moon.com> [Jennifer Jarvis] >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Database interest >Hello Joel, >I am an "amateur" UFO Researcher. (The definition of "amateur," >as given in the Oxford Dictionary, is "one who practises a thing >only as a pastime, esp. UNPAID player etc." A "professional" >researcher would be one who "performs for monetary reward?") >I was wondering for what purpose this aforementioned possible UFO >Database is being compiled. Data on UFO reports is divided all over the place and generally not easy to access. One central clearing house would be of benefit to all of ufology. >With that statement, what I am trying to ask is this: "What is >the ultimate goal of UFO Research?" To find out what these ufo's are all about (that's a major league generalisation). >Is it to try and discover some sort of pattern to the activity of >the Extra-Terrestrial Visitors that are CURRENTLY visiting our >planet? That's on idea. >Is it to try and discover some sort of HISTORICAL pattern to the >activity of said visitors? Another good one. >If these are the reasons, whence to we go from there? What will >we gain from this database? What is the next step? Data in large quantity is useful not only for the record but increases accuracy of studies done. >I know of a gentleman in England who has researched UFO sightings >dating back to the late 19th Century. He has discovered >patterns to the UFO activity all around our planet, and has >formulated charts and graphs which, as I have found through >working "in the field," are most helpful in determining the >optimumum dates and times for possible UFO activity in a given >area. What's his name (e-mail address)? I'd like to get ahold of him. He could be a real beneficial contributor. >Also, when I have a sighting, I carefully log the time, date, >duration etc., and feed that information back to this gentleman, >so that he can add this to his database, thus making his >prediction system even more accurate. Good. The better data the better the results. >I have used these charts in Canada, the United States and England >with excellent results, meaning that the Unconventional Flying >Objects/Nocturnal lights or whatever, appear to arrive and depart >"right on schedule." It is as if I were using a timetable for a >bus or train, except that, the vehicles involved do not appear to >be from "around here." >I have also had feedback from other people around the world to >whom I have sent specially generated customized charts and graphs >for their specific areas. Here again, the dates and times >predicted have been VERY accurate. Is there a website one can easily access to get access to this type of data/analysis? It's all very well and good to be able to do it but not of much use if it is not widely shared (the goal of the new database). >Of course, how we use such information is left to our >"consciences," and, maybe, certain people and agencies may use >said information for the "wrong reasons." >I use the charts to enable me to go and see these >"unconventionals" without the inconvenience of having to wait >around on the "off-chance" that something MIGHT appear. Very >useful in our cold Canadian winters. Being able to predict where and when they will show up is extremely importanat and I'll bet hundreds of investigator would love to access this info. >But, even then, I ask myself, "Why AM I doing this?" Maybe that >is the secret to the whole story. Humans have a need to ask >questions. To be ever seeking. >But, questions just produce more questions. Will we ever have >the answers? With enough info, maybe. At least it will be more accurate and therefore useful even in speculation. If you or the gentlman you mentioned earlier would be interested in contributing to this effort, it would be much appreciated. Interest so far is very high. Joel Henry ***************************************************** Minnesota MUFON Webmaster Minnesota MUFON Web Page= http://www.wavefront.com/~jhenry/index.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: Reality Check From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 16:01:47 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 12:26:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Reality Check >Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:35:51 -0600 (CST) >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: reality check >A comment on reality checking in: while I have absolutely >no quarrel with Cathy regarding the reality of either her >experiences, those of John Velez, of Whitley Strieber, or any >other abductee, I've always been a bit leary of assertions >that someday soon reality is about to check in, ie, these beings >are going to "come out", reveal themselves publically, and >forever change reality as it exists for our great seething >mass of humanity. >I say this because, as a reader of some number of books >on the topic, and as a lurker here for a couple of years now, >one thing that has regularly caught my attention is the fact >that case evidence exists that these visitors have been around, >doing their abduction thing, and working behind the scenes to >nudge things along, for a long, long, long time. Ah Brian, How nice to hear another voice crying reason in this wilderness!! But don't expect it to get you anywhere. Yes, they've been here a very long time, yes they have been doing whatever it is they do for a very long time. But don't expect to get much positive feedback for saying so, or for pointing out that we know no more what they are than our distant ancestors did. >So, although its apparent (to me) that something is going on, >its NOT apparent (to me) that any great revelation is just >around the corner from the visitors. This of course doesn't >exclude potential mindbending revelations from our own side, >as the continuing American Computer Company web site saga >intimates. >One last observation is that folks who predict upcoming >paradigm-shifting revelations by the visitors have routinely >been made fools of. Sheldon Nidle's 1996 "mass landings", >and Dr. Boylan's predictions of 1997 contact announcements >spring to mind as ad hoc examples. Of course I realize 1997 >isn't quite over yet, and I may yet have to eat those words. >But pardon me for not holding my breath. I'm not holding my breath either. I have a prediction that I can make with great confidence. Not much is going to happen, and when the millennium rolls around we are going to start on another thousand year of the same old shit. Apologies to the eschatologists among us, but it just ain't gonna happen. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: Clark and ETH From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 17:37:13 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 12:28:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark and ETH Jerry Clark wrote in reply to a posting of mine: >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] >Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:26:29 PST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Clark and ETH <snip> >As I've said more than once before, you are in serious >need of a new rhetorical style. I think you would improve *your* rhetorical style, Jerry, if you took a deep breath, actually read the arguments I am trying to put forth, and tried not to project your own mind-set onto me, making allegations that I am being some kind of egocentric lunatic just because I question some tenets of ET ufology. I naturally observe a spectrum within ET ufology from the nutter fringe to a more sober expression of the same belief (though the gap between these ends of the spectrum seem to be getting closer all the time), but it is that essential belief, that ET motif as a whole, that I am suggesting we question (but am NOT saying we should abandon as one possible explanation for things-seen-in-the sky). But I do not accept *at all* your claim that mainstream ufology is not besotted with the ETH/ETM. It has changed over the decades, of course, but that is part of the problem with the ET motif as a whole, a point I keep trying to make. It wish you would not automatically put yourself in a defensive posture of assuming everything I am saying is wrong, egocentric, foolish and mad. It might work best if you took a few days to consider your responses instead of coming straight back with all your emotional guns blazing. That way you might avoid the ad hominem insults, the denigratory comments, and schoolyard-style catcalling that stud this posting: "dogmatism and self-righteousness in favor of beliefs you hold" "Get off the mountain, Paul" "You've been living on the Devereux planet too long" "You have a distorted view" "Your mind is made up" "You have an unfortunate habit" "It appears that the answers have eluded everybody but you. What a lucky man you are." "the sorts of sweeping generalizations you are wont to launch into rhetorical space" "Paul is simply out to lunch here" "I find the above absurd and even boorish" "Paul's knowledge of ufological history is so dim" "Paul, conveniently oblivious...resorts to cartoonish caricature and insult. This is a man obsessed " "Given the fierceness, even fanaticism...in his rhetoric" "the rhetorical trick Paul is engaging in here" "The insults, caricatures, and bombast of the Devereux style" "your arguments, beneath the posturing and the victimology rhetoric" All this from *one* posting. Even if I did the things you claim were true (instead of me presenting you with tough debate) I couldn't match this sort of display from you, Jerry. <snipped because it's not worth getting on the carousel yet again> >There's plenty of room for reasoned discussion and debate in >ufology. Not with you, it seems. Well, don't worry, I won't bother trying any more. Paul Devereux
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Irving Challenged To Recreate 'Julia' From: Georgina <georgina@easynet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 01:28:20 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 12:33:50 -0500 Subject: Irving Challenged To Recreate 'Julia' CIRCLES CHALLENGE UFO Researcher, Georgina Bruni has challenged UK crop circle maker Rob Irving to recreate "The Julia Set". Rob has agreed and the event will take place next July. Serious researchers interested in witnessing the event should e-mail <georgina@easynet.co.uk> The challenge is to establish whether human crop cirle makers are capable of producing quality intricate creations. Georgina Bruni
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: Just what is an abduction experience? From: rfsignal@sprynet.com [Cathy Johnson] Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:04:41 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 13:01:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Just what is an abduction experience? >From: ufo1@juno.com [Jack Sargeant] >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Just what is an abduction experience? >Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 08:17:14 EST Dear Jack and List, I haven't posted for quite a while because of the flavours of arguments going on in technical legalese that I could barely interpret. [Huh? - ebk] Now, I have something I can reply to, because you asked for it. >To Cathy I respectfully request the following... >1. What is an abduction experience? A classical abduction experience is where aliens of one sort or another, appear in your vicinity, mesmerize you or somehow prevent your body from obeying your mental commands, then take you somehow onto a ship to transport you to a larger ship in space. Once there, you wait passively in line for your turn to be examined, sampled and endure the various procedures that are readied for your specific case. All the while, your body is inert as your mind functions. Some of the procedures are very personally invasive, extremely painful. But, your body does not react usually, even though you bear the full impact of what is going on. When your turn is finished, you return to the lineup to wait for the ride home. Usually this trip will last about two hours or so. You will find yourself usually back at where you were originally. The entire experience is one at convenience with their time and place. You would not be missed by anyone, you might not even know you had gone off somewhere else for those two hours. >2. Are they usually remembered? Usually, there are significant clues to the fact that you have been abducted. Besides the fact that you probably would have unusual memories surfacing, or odd dreams to that effect, there could also be physical reminders in the presence of scoop marks, scars of an inexplicable nature, the presence of implants, and heightened awareness and intelligence. Since memory is such a complex structure, there are kinds of memories that our bodies have to retain clues to our past experiences. The obvious conscious memory is the most temporary and fickle when it comes to remembering details of abduction events. Conscious memory is also that which is most often used to control humans during their abductions. Whether or not a person remembers an abduction experience can and does often depend upon their own conscious control of memories. After the fact, people do remember their abduction experiences in essentially four catagories. There are those people who do not remember anything of their abductions. Any unusual circumstances or events would be explained away by mundane and acceptable factors or causes. Most people remember at least something of their abductions. Key clues in this are flashback memories, incomplete conscious memories of specific circumstances, or physical marks and alterations, etc. There is a list of these reasonably evident clues to the fact that an abduction event has taken place. Then, there are a few people who consciously remember parts of or entire sequences of the abduction experiences. The fourth catagory of people are those who not only remmber the ongoing events of their abductions, but consciously remain interactively involved after their abduction experience. >3. Is it a one-time happening, or an ongoing experience > that is repeated time and again? Abductions are ongoing visits during a lifetime. The abductions begin at an early age and continue frequently until about middle life of the individual. Abduction experiences will continue less frequently until death of the individual. Rarely does a person begin an abduction experience at an age greater than the early teenage years. A person much older will hardly ever survive an abduction experience. >4. Why are certain individuals singled out for these events? People who have true abduction experiences are not any different than most other people in having two arms, two legs, one head, and anywhere from three to six digits per hand or foot. But, it is a fact that some people grow up thinking it is normal for themselves to be taken by craft into space, to see and do things that most people think would be impossible and to mature with the help of highly evolved intelligences and beings. No one single factor has been identified that spells out whether or not a person could be abducted. But, it is something that is determined at a very early age, and once determined, that individual will go on to live an exceedingly active and healthy life, usually. Who knows, maybe they go by the dark blue little spots that appear at the base of the spine before you are three months old. >Cathy, once again I have the pleasure of reading of your >thoughts and suggestions about approaching this nagging >topic of discussion. For the benefit of those who are not >as privy to just what is involved in an abduction experience, >could you please take the time to explain in your own words >what it is like to go through an experience of a nature such >as applies to your own? Thanks for the compliment, Jack. And, what you ask of me is very difficult. I cannot stress the extremes of my physical and mental states as a result of either going through the abduction experiences of of just remembering those experiences even after forty years have gone by. Its still just as fresh as if it had happened yesterday. All of the memories are still there and at the surface of my consciousness. You can't know just what it is to be so totally in an emotion, of pain, of fear, of hatred, of anger, of frustration! Think of it this way. A normal brain works at about 3 milliamps or so (is this the right number for that?). Then an abduction takes place. For weeks, even months afterwards, the brain works at full power, whatever that value actually is (I think of it as being like 10 miliamps, instead of the usual 3 milliamps). The senses are so terrified and the body is so peaked that you wouldn't believe the experiences! Afraid of fear? HA! All five foot five of me at my 130 lbs plus (big, eh?) was making a city delivery to a factory while the Brooklyn riots were going on. Drove down a street that was being totally destroyed by a mob. I looked at them, they looked at me and didn't even touch my truck. I know other times when I stared down the barrel of the gun that a State Highway Patrol officer was about to shoot me with. My reaction was as cool as cool could be. Nada, nothing. But, whatever it is that does scare me leaves me with my lungs bursting through my neck, blood on my lips, in my eyes and out of my ears, my palms bleeding where my own fingernails are imbedded, as a gallon of sweat soakes me. That's my fear. And, I do remember what makes that fear in me. Think I could forget that? Well some people do, not me. >It would seem there is confusion on the part of some as to >what actually takes place in the physical sense. Too many >want to associate a purely psychological reason for your >kind of experience. So, please put the doubting Thomases >and arm-chair psychologists into a more enlightened >frame of thought. I have to admit that I ain't so smart when it comes to argueing with logical intellectuals. I just ain't that smart. It is all that I can do to cope with to remember what little I can of what actually happened during my life. I don't need to fictionalize something that I have so much difficulty with in the first place. I don't need to complicate already complex matters that are definitely beyond my own powers of reasoning. I can't for the life of me reason out what disease or genetic defect that affects so many other people like me from all over the world. If there is a cure, a pill, or even a plug int a 220 volt electrical line, I would be the first one to try the cure for all of this, providing of course that I thought it would change anything. But, it won't. I know it won't. Many other people know it won't. >Please explain that it is not just a replacement for some >childhood traumatic happening that so many are insistent >must be the real solution. Abductions begin in early childhood. At this age, a child knows who can be told of the experiences or not. A child knows what is real or not, can draw and describe their abdcution experiences just as clearly as can an adult. So, if an adult's experience is the same as a child's experience, what factors of the abduction are being described? From the human point of view, we go and we come back. We have to heal and endure, and go on with our lives just as if nothing at all had happened. It isn't talked about, it isn't treated, and there is no cure. If there are so many damned experts floating around with nothing better to do, where is the list of explanations and cures for the outrages and fears that so many people have to face. If they are so expert, they can fix it. In the meantime, they are idiots blowing off a but of intellict. At any rate, they are of no consequence, because they are not making money by having the cure. >You know me, Cathy, and know I am not asking this in a >tongue-in-cheek manner. ...But in a legitimate quest to >educate those who really don't know what it's all about. Dear Jack, both you and I know the state of affairs when it comes to the abduction phenomenon. People here seem to have difficulty with the UFO sightings, forgetting that for every real sighting, there are a group of humans walking around a bit more sore than they were before, and in a different frame of mind about the whole thing. Try to convince them that their foolishness during their childhood was responsible for their present condition and state of being. Might work in Saginaw, but it won't work in Serbia. Have you read any of the accounts that have come out of Russia since the fall? It has been a steady flow of information. What is the same in Russia that is the same in America? Abductions still continue. Take care for now, Cathy Johnson PS: Anyone know where I can get warrantee work on my defective implants?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:40:51 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 13:43:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony Regarding... >Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:14:49 -0500 >From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony Bob wrote (to Bruce): >And you haven't even addressed my pterodactyl theory??? Bob. Did you know that skeletons found in Oligocene deposits 30-40 million years old are so similar to living pelicans that they are both considered to come under the genus "Pelecanus". >You have to admit that it makes a lot more sense than _pelicanus >eastoni_. You know of a reason that the birdwatchers suggested explanation conclusively isn't possible? Wonderful. Please, let's hear why your assessment of the Arnold case concludes that suggestion doesn't make sense. I trust it's not simply that the explanation is too mundane. That did bother me, until I remembered how mundane - balloons, balloon wreckage, lighthouse beacons, misidentified stars, space debris, etc. - the explanations were for many 'classic' UFO cases. That's not always the way, or the subject wouldn't hold much interest, but we all know it goes with the territory. James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimon From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:41:40 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 13:41:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimon Regarding... >Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 23:58:35 +0100 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@istar.ca> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony Don wrote: >>However, there's a striking resemblance with the object portrayed >>in that later sketch and a Horton GO 229 A-1. >>I've uploaded a superb illustration of an 229 A-1 to my web site at >>URL: >>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/ho229A-1.jpg >I had a look at them, and as you say they are impressive. You know >if I had seen them 20 years ago and not knowing then what I know now >about the K.A. sighting I might have gone for that explanation. But >none of these aircraft would have been capable of supersonic speed >in 1947. Don, Absolutely not, although I would always make considerable allowances for perceptions of distance and speed. Your overall comments of interest and noted, I've asked Gordon if he can substantiate his claims with some evidence. It's an unlikely explanation, but who knows. >>It seems the Horton GO 229 A-1 and Ho-1X A Series were essentially >>the same project. >I'd make a guess and suggest that the Ho-1X was a test bed for the >229. It was probably a glider. It has an X in the model series >number. There's no question that Arnold's later sketch resembles a GO 229 A-1 considerably more than any bird and I found some informative and highly relevant information on a web page, at URL: http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/go229.html It's hopefully not too lengthy to quote: Gotha Go 229 / Horten Ho IX Flying wing fighter The Gotha Go 229 was the first turbojet-driven warplane of pure flying wing configuration. Although flown for the first time in 1945, the aircraft looks surprisingly modern --- almost like a small version of the Northrop B-2 stealth bomber. The Go 229 was initially designed by the brothers Reimar and Walter Horten, pioneers in early flying wing aircraft designs. The Horten brothers were attempting to figure out ways to eliminate every source of parasitic drag. They believed that the flying wing configuration offered the best way to achieve this feat. Their flying wing proposals had no fuselage as such, and they looked a lot like the Northrop flying wing designs produced in the USA during the 1940s and later. The chord of the wing center section increased sufficiently to enable pilot and powerplants to be housed entirely within the wing itself without any drastic increase of thickness/chord ratio. There were no vertical surfaces --- lateral and directional control were provided by a set of spoilers. The Horten brothers' interest in flying wings dates back to the Horten I wooden sailplane of 1931. The brothers produced a number of experimental powered and unpowered flying wings throughout the 1930s. In 1943, they began to envisage a jet fighter flying wing design, designated Ho IX. The Ho IX was to be powered by a pair of BMW 003 turbojets. The Ho IX was what was later to be known colloquially as a "skunked" project --- it went forward initially without the support (or even the knowledge) of the all-powerful Reichluftfahrtministerium (RLM, the State Ministry of Aviation). Work on a single prototype (designated Ho IX V1) was begun at Gottingen. The Horten brothers planned that their Ho IX V1 was to undergo an extensive series of gliding tests before any attempt was to be made to install the pair of BMW 003 turbojets. However, in early 1944, RLM became aware of the existence of the Ho IX V1. The project captured the imagination of Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering who gave it his enthusiastic backing. In addition, intelligence reports from the USA indicated that the Northrop Corporation was thinking along similar lines. The Ho IX project was to move forward to powered flight testing with all deliberate speed. With official backing now present, the Ho IX project gained momentum. The first gliding trials began in spring of 1944. Gliding tests were highly satisfactory. The planned installation of the BMW 003 turbojet engines in the Ho IX V1 prototype was deemed impractical, and it was decided to install a pair of Jumo 004 engines in the second prototype (Ho IX V2). The Ho IX V2 was designed for a 7g safe load factor. The center section of the wing housed the engines and the cockpit and was made of conventional welded steel-tube construction. The center section was covered with plywood skinning except in the immediate vicinity of the engine exhausts, where metal was used. The outer wings were made entirely of wood. The outer wing leading edges were constructed of a special molded wood (wood shavings compressed with resin), but the rest of the wing was covered with plywood. A special coating of lacquer was applied to give a smooth finish to the entire aircraft. I think that the idea of the lacquer finish was to give an aerodynamically smooth surface rather than to provide any "stealth" characteristics --- that was still many, many years in the future. Two Jumo 004B turbojets were mounted side-by-side close inboard in the center section. The jet tailpipes protruded above the wing rear surfaces. A tricycle undercarriage was fitted. Lateral and longitudinal control was provided by elevons which, together with plain flaps, occupied the trailing edges of the outer wing panels. Spoiler flaps extended across most of the wing center section immediately aft of the mainwheel wheels. Directional control was achieved by spoilers located near the wingtips just aft of the main spar. Glider tests with the Ho IX V1 were sufficiently encouraging that the RLM decided that the Horten design was worthy of production as an operational combat aircraft. In early summer of 1944, the Friedrichsroda facility of the Gothaer Waggonfabrik was given a contract for the production of the design under the designation Go 229. Control of the adaptation of the design for production was taken away from the Horten brothers, but the brothers continued to work on the testing of their Ho IX prototype. Gotha immediately began work on the production of the flying wing fighter. The initial production version was to be given the designation Go 229A. The Gotha team found it necessary to introduce some changes in order to adapt the Ho IX for production. They redesigned the cockpit, enlarged the turbojet housings, revised the air intake geometry and modified the undercarriage. Provision was made for four 30 mm MK 103 or MK 108 cannon mounted immediately outboard of the engines. Hardpoints were to be provided beneath the center section for two 2205-lb bombs or for two 275 Imp gall fuel tanks. A two seat radar-equipped all-weather version (designated Go 229B) was also envisaged. In the meantime, the Ho IX V2 was transferred in January 1945 to Oranienberg for powered flight testing. Flight tests went quite well. Handling characteristics were much better than expected. A maximum level speed of 497 mph was attained during the tests. Unfortunately, the Ho IX V2 crashed during a landing attempt and was totally destroyed. Gotha's first production prototype for the Go 229A single-seat fighter-bomber series was given the designation Go 229 V3. V4 and V5 were to be the prototypes for the Go 229B alweather fighter, and V-6 was to be a second A-series prototype with MK 103 cannon in place of MK 108s. V7 was to be a prototype for a two-seat training version. All through the spring of 1945, work proceeded at Friedrichsroda on these prototypes. However, late in April, the Friedrichsroda plant was finally occupied by American troops and development came to an abrupt end. At that time, the Go 229 V3 prototype was being prepared for flight testing, and the V4 and V6 prototypes were in final assembly. Component manufacture for the 20 pre-production Go 229A-0 fighter bombers was well advanced, and various component parts were found strewn about the factory. The Go 229A-0 pre-production fighters were to be powered by a pair of Junkers Jumo 004B-1, -2, or -3 turbojets, 1962 lb. st. each. Estimated maximum speed was 590 mph at sea level and 607 mph at 39,370 feet. Maximum ceiling was to be 52,500 feet (!!! Remember, this was only 1945, folks!). Maximum range was estimated at 1180 miles, and initial climb rate was to be 4330 ft/min. Weights were estimated at 10,140 lb empty, 16,550 lbs. normal loaded. Source: * Warplanes of the Third Reich, William Green. Doubleday, New York, 1970. Joe Baugher [End] >>For a new perspective on contemporary triangular, or wedge-shaped, >>'UFOs', there's also an interesting image on my web site at URL: >>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/p12.jpg >This image intrigues me but not because it might have any >relationship to Arnold's "skipping saucers", but because it looks >like a lifting body, similiar to the experimental lifting bodies that >NASA experimented with while designing the Shuttle. Yes, it was an early lifting body design. James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 19:48:07 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 13:58:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 06:41:22 -0500 > From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> > Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Regarding... > >Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 14:09:01 -0800 > >From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > Ted wrote: > > Our glider pilot states: > > "Visibility depends on several factors. The one having the most > > effect of course is how much "haze" or other particulate matter ---snip--- First, I must thank James for his lengthy replies to me and the efforts he is putting into this thread. Regrettably, for any logical discourse to proceed some concordance with the arguments must continue from each person to the next. For any given issue, subject, predicate, and object must remain the same. Corollaries and contrapositives must be understood before rebuttal and remain unchanged during it. An argument about one point must not be inadvertently applied to another. Perhaps unknowingly, perhaps unintentionally, this appears to be the course of James' debate. I have been needling, I have been demanding, but I have only tried to address specific technical issues in this thread. The arguments appear to get twisted in their return and this makes it impossible for me to continue. I will look for other areas here to make my modest, certainly fallable contributions. As example, the pilot says he "can distinguish the > basic shape (a body with wings) of these pelicans from about 4 > miles when flying above the haze. From 4 to maybe 6 miles they > become small dots. "I point out that, from the physics of the eye, >he would be limited to "distinguishing" them as pelicans within a mile. In his reply, James transposes this to an argument about visually detecting a distant large bird as would be necessary for flight safety. This of course can be done at a much greater distance. In no way is he addressing the question of how close a bird must be before it is visually recognized as a "body with wings" as opposed to a fluctuating blob. Another example is in James closing comments. I have only been debating the fallacies in James technical arguments and not particularly on Arnold's behalf. Yet even this gets me labled a worshipper of some sort. I was hoping to learn more about the mechanics of Arnold's flight from this thread. My interest currently goes no deeper. If a reasonable argument was presented that Arnold only saw birds, I would be content with this conclusion. Fallacious arguments do little to hold my interest. ---snip--- > >they were flying in the same direction. This is the one unavoidable > >characteristic necessary for them to be birds that is not reported. > They weren't flying in the same direction, but if you're interested > in further comments re this point, see my reply to George Fergus. James, after conveniently snipping my conditional "even if" preceding my point, does not even have enough snap to realize that I chose the worst case in supporting my point and any other set of bearings would further strengthen it. The whole posting in reply to George was riddled with non-sequiturs and invalid logic. It would become an avocation to address them. Again, I bow out of this thread... > >If you merely desire to discredit Arnold, then why go through all > >this work? > If you would even begin to believe I would wish to see Arnold > discredited, you either haven't read the material, or comprehensively > fail to understand it. > >Simply declare that it never happened. > That what never happened? The subject of the preceding argument, of course. > James. > E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com On to other things... Bye... Ted..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:42:09 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 14:00:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony Regarding... >From: USDSCUBA@aol.com [Gordon Scott] >Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 01:34:15 -0500 (EST) >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony Gordon wrote: >according to a close friend within the military at the time the >vehicle as seen by Mr K. Arnold was a German made Gotha Go 229 IX >being test flown for radar testing. Gordon, Do you know, or can you find out, which airbase it's claimed the plane was flown from and where it was headed? Arnold reports nine objects, although apparently later reporting that one of them, certainly resembling a Gotha Go 229, was different. What were the other 8 objects? Is it possible you can substantiate this story further in any way? James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 04:05:37 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 14:05:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 15:46:38 +0100 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@istar.ca> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 02:51:30 -0500 >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >> >From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com> >> >Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:42:46 EST >> >To: updates@globalserve.net >> >Subject: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >> >John Velez wrote: >> >>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:41:16 -0500 >> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >> >>Until about six years ago I had rationalized my lifetime of >> >>unexplained experiences and memories as OOBE's (out of body >> >>exp's) vivid nightmares, and several unexplained objects (UFO >> >>sightings) I had seen in the sky (throughout my life - beginning >> >>in childhood) that simply didn't fit in with anything -I- knew >> >>of... >> ><mega-snip> >> Hi Paul, hi All, >> Paul wrote, >> >Thank you for your honest account. Most revealing. >> Please don't take this remark personally Paul as it is not >> directed at you specifically. The reason I wrote that e-mail is >> because I'm a little tired of having 'other people' tell me what >> I have experienced. Hello All, Don wrote, >Hi John, Paul and List, <snip> >Now really, don't you think Paul that we are well past the point >in the abductee phenomenon where we can start tossing that old >chestnut around. I think we are. It's like using the Venus theory >to explain a football field sized object 100 feet over some >witnesses head. It's just too damned simplistic. That we are still basically on 'square one' is symptomatic of a failure to communicate. Until 'old saws' are put away we're not going to make much progress. Nothing 'new' will ever get to see the light of day because of the ceaseless rehashing of old 'been dere, don dat' crap. For anyone who was around at the time I had this exact same dialog with John (Steven) Powell two years ago! Apparently this freakin elevator don't go past the first floor. <G> >Many of us are aware of people in highly responsible, high >ranking or positions in science that are affected by this >phenomenon. I suspect that there are many reading this list >right now that are not telling all, in fact I know of a few, as >do others. Hush, hush, you didn't hear this from me, but I know for a "fact" that several psychiatrists, (one of them prominent here in NY) several very famous entertainers, (ones the public doesn't know about!) two (highly ranked) military people, and one from NASA are abductees. Money, race, politics, or position have nothing to do with this. "Abductees" come from all strata of society. Most of them cannot come forward because of career or family considerations. As a result, poor bastards like Mr Devereux get to deal with mamaluks like me! There are people involved in this that would turn many a head and cause them to question. As it stands it's just a few guys and gals like me, and we're easy to blow off and dismiss because after all, we're just their neighbors, strangers telling strange stories, we're 'nobody.' >I suggest that you >cast about you, look in your own families, and you will find that >somewhere close to you is someone who has had something "highly >strange" happen to them and want some answers. >It won't be so easy to blow it off then. Geez Don, warn me when you throw open the lid to Pandoras Box, from where I sit, the numbers are frightening and staggering. When people start to realize that it's their friends, coworkers and family members that are telling these stories the tune and the melody will change rapidly and dramatically. I'll expect to get a lot more e-mail if that happens! <G> Consider this: If -I'm- inundated, (Johnny nobody) imagine how many contacts a well known person like Hopkins or a Fowler or a Mack get each week! Time to get off the dime and get serious. It's not just an isolated few 'whacko's', I'm talking thousands of everyday ordinary people. I know people who say 'millions!' I even know one guy who thinks they've already done us all. <G> >As for UFO sightings. I recently travelled 4,200 miles across >Canada from Nova Scotia to British Columbia to see my second UFO. >Get this. I was on my way into a shopping mall to buy film for my >camera when I, in company with another investigator, saw it. >Broad daylight, 2:00 pm local, beautiful blue sky, estimated >altitude of 2,500 to 3,000 feet, white, cigarette shaped object >object moving at about 125 to 150 mph. >Duration 1.5 to 2 minutes. >And I'm out of film. >Don Ledger You're a courageous guy to share that in a public forum. Thank you. I only wish that more would. There is strength in numbers and if 'numbers' is what it will take to 'awaken the sleeper' then let's give 'em numbers. Thanx again Don. John Velez, 'earth patriot'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 From The "XX Files": The "Real" Truth... From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 13:05:13 +0200 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 14:15:40 -0500 Subject: From The "XX Files": The "Real" Truth... Found at: http://www.latinolink.com/opinion/opinion97/0628OSPE.HTM From the "XX Files": The "Real" Truth about "Aliens" in the U.S.A. By Roberto Rodriguez & Patrisia Gonzales =A91997 Chronicle Features They lied to us about Roswell. Of course. They also lied to us about the Mexican-American War and Columbus. So what haven't they lied to us about? Roswell, New Mexico, has captured the imagination of the world and yet, few people seem to know the real story behind the world's most famous purported UFO incident. In July of 1947, the Air Force reported that it had captured the remains of a UFO, only to retract the story the following day, claiming what it had found was in fact only a weather balloon. Curiously, in all the current media mania over the 50th anniversary of the "Roswell Incident," the name of Lincoln LaPaz, an expert in meteoritics and a key figure in the government investigation, appears nowhere. LaPaz was a University of New Mexico professor at the time, who had earlier been part of the ultra-secret Manhattan Project which developed the world's first atomic weapon. When the government began to investigate the purported UFO crash, and a second nearby crash site where alien bodies were allegedly recovered, agents found that most of the nearby residents spoke primarily Spanish. Because of the English-only laws for military personnel back then, the government found itself with a communication problem. As documented in the 1991 book "UFO Crash at Roswell," the government enlisted the services of LaPaz to interview the residents. LaPaz scoured the countryside, visiting homes, farms, and even bars. It is through his interviews that the trajectory of the UFO was determined. According to heavily censored government documents given to us by a former intelligence agent, code-named "XX" (or "Dos Equis"), whom we met at one of the bars that LaPaz visited, scores of ranch hands in the area also stumbled onto the bodies of three or four aliens. The laborers left hastily to other parts of the country, afraid that the government would make them "disappear" because of what they had seen. Another top secret document revealed that, for years after LaPaz's interviews, Army intelligence agents tried to track down the farm laborers -- even hanging out at bars for years at a time -- but to no avail. Apparently, LaPaz, who is now deceased, is the only investigator who spoke to these witnesses. Despite the recently released bogus 231-page U.S. Air Force report, LaPaz's work, as well as the entire Roswell investigation, is still classified as "Top Secret." Archivists at UNM told us he left no papers. The USAF report, which completely lacks credibility, still claims that the UFO was a weather balloon and that the aliens were simply 1950s-era test dummies. "Dos Equis" claims there's an even bigger conspiracy than has been imagined. Frustrated by its inability to track down and "neutralize" the farmworker witnesses, the U.S. government created a massive ruse to find them and to ensure that what they witnessed at Roswell would never be revealed in public. This resulted in "Operation Wetback," a program designed to deport Mexicans, citizens and noncitizens alike. Since the government wasn't sure who the several dozen actual witnesses were (who happened to be Mexican migrant workers), it opted to just deport as many Mexicans as possible -- just to be safe. Apparently, the operation succeeded in its objective because nothing was ever heard from these migrant workers again. However, government officials readily admit in the classified documents that it would probably have been less expensive and better to individually track down the specific workers, rather than deporting close to one million random Mexicans, since most of them probably didn't see the alien bodies. To find the witnesses, they deceived the public with a trumped-up threat -- an "illegal alien" invasion -- a theme that continues to be repeated to this day by other government sectors. The objective was to silence the witnesses so as not to tip-off the Soviet Union about the U.S. possession of alien technology. So the Cold War was actually a race to replicate advanced alien technology -- and not a deeply entrenched historical clash over political systems and deep philosophical differences between capitalism and communism. Years later, concerned with the hatred unleashed against immigrants, President Nixon, against the advice of intelligence officials, was prepared to admit to the whole "illegal alien" ploy. Unfortunately, Watergate, our source said, rudely interrupted Nixon's plan. According to "Dos Equis," presidents Carter and Reagan were also prepared to call off the war on "illegal aliens" and admit to the existence of the real extraterrestrials, but the Iran hostage crisis and the Iran/Contra affair made the revelations not such a good idea at the time, as both presidents were suffering from credibility problems and would not have been taken seriously. In office, Carter never recovered his credibility and Reagan "couldn't recall" being at Roswell in 1947. President Clinton himself has been prepared to offer a national apology to Latinos for the nation's trumped-up war against "illegal aliens" and has also been ready to tell the truth about Roswell. However, his credibility problems stemming from Whitewater and his various extracurricular trysts have deterred him from speaking on the issue. "Dos Equis" confided in us that the so-called presidential "scandals" of the past few decades have in fact been manufactured by forces more powerful than the presidency. When presidents have been close to revealing the truth about aliens, they have been removed or thoroughly discredited. Our source claims that the answers to all these mysteries lie in two places: Texas and Mexico. "Dos Equis" claims that the character in the TV show, "X-Files," named "cancer man" -- who is held responsible for every conspiracy of the last half century -- is patterned after a real-life high government official who lives in Texas. And Mexico's "Bosque de Silencio" ("Silent Forest") is where many alien aircraft are said to be buried. It's time for the government to declassify the truth about its alien controversies. Or as Lalo Lopez of East L.A.'s National Pochismo Institute says, look to the mariachi sombrero -- which resembles a UFO spaceship -- for a clue as to the true origin of aliens in this country. Last change: June 28, 1997 Rodriguez is the author of Justice: A Question of Race (Cloth ISBN 0-927534-69-X paper ISBN 0-927534-68-1 Bilingual Review Press) and The X in La Raza II. Both are the authors of Gonzales/Rodriguez: Uncut & Uncensored (ISBN 0-918520-22-3 UC Berkeley, Ethnic Studies Library). Rodriguez/Gonzales can be reached at XColumn@aol.com To share your thoughts about this article or any other in LatinoLink, send email to latino@latinolink.com. Please indicate whether your words are for publication. Gracias! =A91996 LatinoLink Enterprises, Inc.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 MSN UFO Forum Chats with William Birnes From: "Yvonne Hedenland" <VONNI_H@classic.msn.com> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 97 12:07:53 UT Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 14:16:22 -0500 Subject: MSN UFO Forum Chats with William Birnes Join MSN UFO Forum Tuesday, December 9th, 6pm, PT, for an open chat with William Birnes, co-author of "The Day After Roswell", as we discuss the genesis of this best selling book as well as future projects that Birnes and Corso have planned. The chat is available through http://forums.msn.com/UFO. The Briefing Room chat can be accessed by any IRC client. The chat server name is publicchat.msn.com and the room or channel name is #briefing.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Flying Saucer Design Praised At Mexico UFO Meeting From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 13:34:50 +0200 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 14:18:40 -0500 Subject: Flying Saucer Design Praised At Mexico UFO Meeting Flying saucer design praised at Mexico UFO meeting 11:45 a.m. Dec 06, 1997 Eastern By Dan Trotta ACAPULCO, Mexico, Dec 6 (Reuters) - The flying saucer has long been the aerodynamic design of choice for aliens visiting Earth, as every UFO buff and science fiction fan knows. But why the flying saucer and not, say, a flying coffee spoon? Flying casserole dish? Flying rubber chicken? The answer, according to international UFO experts gathered here this weekend for the Second World UFO Congress, is simple aerodynamics. Provided, of course, you have a technology far superior to our own. "If you're using a magneto aerodynamic propulsion system, then a round symmetrical body makes absolute sense," Stanton Friedman, a nuclear physicist who has worked on rocket designs for defense contractors, told Reuters. "You change the direction and strengthen the magnetic forces to ionize the air and interact with electronic and magnetic fields," he said. Friedman's speech "Flying Saucers are for Real" late on Friday was one of the highlights of the conference, which features many serious investigators but also includes some speakers who extend themselves "outside the data," Friedman admitted. Still, he said, "This is not a bunch of kooks." The flying saucer is probably not unique to one civilization that has visited earth repeatedly, but rather a universal design concept used by many aliens, who may have formed a galactic federation to keep an eye on violent earthlings just now venturing off into space, he said. "There are certain characteristics you want in a high performance flying vehicle," Friedman said. "You want complete maneuverability so you can avoid problems. You want a craft that can stop and reverse very quickly. Airplanes can't do that." "Secondly, you want one that can land in an area not much larger than itself, so it can go anywhere," he said. "You want a low radar profile. There's a little stealthiness here." Another speaker, Robert O. Dean, suggested that flying saucers have long been visiting earthlings, pointing out numerous saucer shapes with domes on top that have appeared in the skies of Jesus paintings from the Renaissance. He then displayed a series of art images, including a 20,000-year-old cave painting from the south of France, where flying saucers appeared to be mixed in with the mastodons. "Aerodynamically, it's an ideal shape to fly in an atmosphere," Dean told Reuters afterward. "Any advanced technology would design it because it's perfect. As a matter of fact the human blood cell is shaped like that." But of course, not all UFOs are flying saucers, he said. "I mean, you have gigantic vessels that are 15 to 20 miles (24 to 30 km) long, like giant cigars," Dean said. "We have others that have been sighted that are giant spheres." Outside an atmosphere, where there is virtually no matter, the shape of a vessel is unimportant, he said. ^REUTERS@ Copyright 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication and redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 47 From: Masinaigan <Masinaigan@aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:27:47 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 14:37:01 -0500 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 47 UFO ROUNDUP Volume 2, Number 47 December 7, 1997 Editor: Joseph Trainor MYSTERY FIREBALL TAKES PLUNGE SOUTH OF CHICAGO On Sunday evening, November 30, 1997, pilot Tim Janecyk of Tinley Park, Illinois was driving with his girlfriend on Interstate Highway 80 south of Chicago when he saw an unusual light in the sky. As he drove through New Lenox, Illinois (population 9,627), Janecyk, a pilot with eight years' experience, "off to his left...saw a 'brilliant fireball descend from the clouds straight down.'" "The object, the size of a full moon, lit up the clouds, trailing a column of smoke, Janecyk said. It appeared to be descending at 125 to 150 miles per hour, he said, 'It was too slow for a meteor.' Within 20 seconds, it dropped behind some trees." "Janecyk called New Lenox police, who notified Will County sheriff's police. Officers investigated but found nothing, said Lt. Mike Moran." "Will County sheriff's police found no evidence of debris, and the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) reported no planes missing or sightings on radar. 'We looked at it, and there is no aviation connection we can determine,' FAA spokesman Don Zochert said." The case is being investigated by John Timmerman of Lima, Ohio, a MUFON investigator. New Lenox is at the intersection of the Lincoln Highway (Illinois Highway 30) and Cedar Road, about six miles (10 kilometers) east of Joliet. (See the Chicago Sun-Times for December 3, 1997, "'Fireball' Fires Up the UFO Crowd.") NEW SIGHTING IN NEW JERSEY On Sunday, November 30, 1997, at 7:11 p.m., MUFON investigator Frank Moriarty and his wife were in the rear of their home in Somerdale, New Jersey (population 5,440), getting ready to cook supper on their outdoor grille. "I noticed a light or lights in the sky over our neighbors' house," Moriarty reported. "The light seemed to be either a collection of whitish lights or a single white light of varying brightness across its width. Actually, this is what attracted my attention to it--I could not clearly focus on it." "It was at an angle of 35 to 40 degrees...and was moving from the north to the southwest. As it moved, I heard the very faint sound of a propellor engine aircraft, coming from behind me to the east. I actually tried to look for the aircraft but was unable to see it because of the low clouds...Turning back to the object, I realized that there was no sound emanating from the lights." "Several times the light wavered slightly in its course as it continued to move in a regularly straight line. The light/lights occasionally blinked or pulsed on an irregular basis, accompanied by what appeared to be a trail of light following from it and heading straight down." Somerdale is on New Jersey Highway 30, about 17 miles (27 kilometers) southeast of Camden, N.J. and Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. (See MUFON Skywatch Investigations #48. Many thanks to George A. Filer of MUFON for this report.) (Editor's Comment: Hmmm, two UFO sightings on November 30, and they both took place in communities on a state highway 30. Interesting coincidence, eh?) CALF MUTILATION FOLLOWS COLORADO UFO SIGHTING On Saturday, November 29, 1997, at 11 p.m., four people in Crestone, Colorado (population 200), on the western slope of the Sangre de Cristo Mountains, spotted "unusual multi-colored lights" in the sky about 15 to 20 miles northwest of town. Identical lights were also seen by four people traveling on Colorado Highway 17, located 15 miles (24 kilometers) west of Crestone. This sighting took place at around 4:45 p.m. The following morning, Sunday, November 30, a rancher found a dead mutilated calf on his property just northwest of Center, Colorado (population 1,963) The "year-old, still-warm, female calf...was missing all the flesh from its right-side mandible, its right eye and a 10-inch (25-centimeter) rectum coring that extended 18 inches (45 centimeters) into the animal." "The crime scene was completely devoid of any tracks--except for the dead calf's," reported Skywatch investigator Christopher O'Brien, author of THE MYSTERIOUS VALLEY (St. Martin's Press, 1996). There were no "footprints or blood or any additional clues as to how the calf was killed and subsequently mutilated." The rancher, who owns a herd of 38 cattle, told O'Brien that he found "a second calf with a bloody nose and is missing a third." The case is being investigated by the Saguache County Sheriff's Department. Center is on Highway 112 approximately 165 miles (264 kilometers) southwest of Denver. (Many thanks to Steve Wilson Sr. for this report.) (Editor's Note: Chris O'Brien's long-anticipated sequel, INSIDE THE MYSTERIOUS VALLEY, dealing with UFO sightings and other anomalies in southern Colorado, will be published by St. Martin's Press in May 1998. Reserve your copy today.) TWO MORE UFO SIGHTINGS REPORTED IN BRITAIN On Monday, December 1, 1997, at 8:30 p.m., Bruce B. was outdoors in Rotherham, South Yorkshire when he "looked up through his north-facing arbor" and "saw a flame--a fiery, green-orange thing moving from left to right and downward. He said it had flames on it, and he thought it was going to crash three-quarters of a mile (0.7 kilometers) away." (Many thanks to Colin Brownbill for this report.) On November 12, 1997, at 5:14 p.m., Harry Price was walking his dog in Bognor Regis, West Sussex, about 70 miles (112 kilometers) southwest of London "on a clear but chilly evening." As he approached the Bognor Regis railroad station, "looking up in a northerly direction, he saw a shining light that split into seven smaller lights and traveled away" to the north. Harry's workmate, who was with him at the time, "also saw the same thing." A third eyewitness, waiting at the train station, saw the same UFO "from the platform a few minutes before the arrival of the 5:30 train." (Many thanks to Roger of CompuServe for this report.) (Editor's Note: In August 1986, Rotherham, S. Yorks was the scene of two ghost incidents. A poltergeist raised havoc at the ground-floor flat inhabited by an elderly couple, Albert and Ivy Cardwell. Shortly thereafter, Stephen Dimbleby saw a ghost in a coal mine at the Silverwood Colliery just outside of town. See UNEXPLAINED MYSTERIES OF THE 20TH CENTURY by Janet and Colin Bord, Contemporary Books, Inc., Chicago, 1989, pages 81 and 91.) ROD-SHAPED UFOs STARTLE MOTORISTS IN AUSTRALIA On Sunday, November 23, 1997, at 7:50 p.m., Wayne Banks and his friends were "heading from Doonside near Blacktown to Penrith," New South Wales (N.S.W.), 25 miles (40 kilometers) west of Sydney when they spotted a UFO. "We stopped at the traffic light at the corner of Phillip Parkway and Eastern Road," Banks reported. "I was looking west at the terrific sunset and commented on this to the people in the car. There was scattered cloud and the sun gave off a reddish glow." "It was then that I noticed an extremely bright line just to the right of where I was looking. I originally thought it was an aircraft jetstream (condensation trail, or "contrail" for short, here in the USA--J.T.), although it didn't seem high enough. It would've been almost an inch long at arm's length. I then turned to one of my friends, and I pointed it out to him." "He too thought it was some sort of jetstream, but then it started to move slowly, until it began to rotate from horizontal to almost vertical. By this stage, all six of us in the car were watching. It was then that one of the girls noticed the line to the northwest of us. It was moving towards the other line but very slowly. I also noticed a small red light in the direction of the second line, but this could have been an aircraft. I lost sight of them as we got to the bottom of the hill. Almost a minute later, we had an unobstructed view of the western sky again, but we could not see anything at all." (Many thanks to John Hayes for this report.) (Editor's Note: The Katoomba Valley, west of Penrith, has had numerous UFO sightings since 1942.) UFO SPOOKS COUPLE IN TAURANGA, NEW ZEALAND On Saturday, November 15, 1997, at 9:50 p.m., a couple living in Tauranga, New Zealand, a city of the North Island located 130 miles (208 kilometers) southeast of Auckland, spotted a UFO flying slowly over Welcome Bay. "It appeared approximately 100 metres (330 feet) from where we were standing on a second-storey verandah, looking out to the north," they reported. "It was approximately 15 to 20 metres (50 to 67 feet) wide and appeared almost mist-like. It was round in shape. There was no noise or lights. One of us saw it and asked the second person (if) they could see it. When both acknowledged seeing it, it disappeared, and not in any particular direction. From the first (moment), it was there for almost ten seconds." (Many thanks to Jane S. Derry for this report.) UFO FOLLOWS BUS IN CENTRAL ARGENTINA A glowing UFO paced a local transit bus on the highway between Rio Cuarto and Las Higueras in Cordoba province, Argentina, approximately 512 kilometers (320 miles) west of Buenos Aires, the national capital. The incident took place Tuesday evening, November 25, 1997. Sra. Alicia Ana de Lourenco boarded a transit bus owned by Transportes Rio Cuarto Ltda. for a trip to the nearby town of General Cabrera. At 8:55 p.m., Sra. de Lourenco looked out the bus window at "a storm front in the south." Suddenly, "a luminous object, bigger than a star and far more brilliant, caught her attention, and she began to observe it with great care." The OVNI (Spanish acronym for UFO) "had a half-moon shape," and she estimated that its flight path carried it over Carnerillo, southeast of Rio Cuarto. "To corroborate what she was seeing, she called to a policeman sitting a few rows in front of her. Then, to get a better view of the object, they opened the side window and observed how it zigzagged right and left." As the UFO came closer, the bus passengers saw that it contained "four rows of lights, which Sra. de Lourenco described as 'the lights of a theatre.'" The "luminous OVNI" kept pace with the bus until it reached Las Higueras, about five kilometers (3 miles) northeast of Rio Cuarto" and then it zipped away. The UFO was seen and videotaped in Las Higueras by a teenager, Valeria Angelini, who used a Panasonic M8000 camcorder "to capture the luminous object on tape." On Monday, December 1, 1997, Srta. Angelini was interviewed by three ufologists from the Argentine UFO study group COR--Mario Bracamonte, Pablo Odello and Frederico Smaldone. (Muchas gracias a Carlos Iurchuk y Fundacion Argentina de Ovniologia para eso caso.) UNKNOWN VANDALS DISTURB GRAVE OF H.P. LOVECRAFT "Even now, what really happened that October night behind the Phillips tombstone remains a mystery." "The grave diggers left only a footprint." "The next morning a Swan Point Cemetery security guard discovered the hole." "Soon thereafter, Martin E. Dugan Jr., Swan Point's president, hurried to the gravesite, which each year attracts visitors from around the world, devotees of the man resting below." Yes, that's none other than Howard Phillips Lovecraft (1890-1937), the early 20th Century horror and science fiction writer. Lovecraft's grave at the Philiips family plot in Swan Point Cemetery, Providence, Rhode Island (population 160,728) was apparently dug up by persons unknown the night of October 13, 1997. "What happened the night of October13 or early October 14 is unclear. Police said yesterday (December 3, 1997) their investigation is continuing but offered no details of what they found." "Cemetery president Dugan declines to elaborate on the grave desecrators, not wanting to attract any more attention." "What Dugan will say is that the hole was about three feet deep and that the dirt at the bottom did not appear to be disturbed." "'Is he (Lovecraft) there?' Dugan says, repeating the BIG question. 'As far as we know. There is no indication to the contrary.'" "Did the intruders leave any evidence? A shovel? A footprint?" "'There was a footprint,' Dugan says. No, the police did not make an impression." "'No,' Dugan says, no one stuck a rod in the ground to see if it would strike the coffin. 'It did not appear than anything had been removed and then refilled.'" Lovecraft, who died sixty years ago, is considered the finest American horror writer after Edgar Allen Poe. He is best remembered for his "cosmic horror" stories such as "The Colour Out of Space," "The Call of Cthulu" and "Pickman's Model." (See the Providence, R.I. Journal- Bulletin for December 4, 1997, "New Lovecraft Mystery Surfaces at Swan Point," page 1.) (Editor's Note: The Lovecraft grave disturbance occurred the same week as the appearance of a large triangle-shaped UFO over Route 10 in Cranston, R.I., about 12 miles (20 kilometers) south of Swan Point Cemetery. Stay tuned for the sequel..."Howard Goes to Yuggoth.") WINTER ENDS FAMILIES' SEARCH FOR MISSING LEAR JET PILOTS With the onset of winter snows, the families of missing Lear jet pilots Johan Schwartz and Patrick Hayes have ended their weekend searches in the upper Connecticut River valley of New England. Since the official search ended on January 6, 1997, the men's relatives and numerous friends have scoured the woods on both the New Hampshire and Vermont sides of the river, searching for the wreckage of the Lear jet, which vanished on the morning of December 24, 1996. "The plane left Bridgeport (Connecticut) at 9:20 a.m. At 9:45, it was within a few miles of Lebanon (New Hampshire), 176 miles north." "At 9:51, one of the pilots told the (Lebanon, N.H.) tower he had missed on his first approach in the rain and fog. The tower cleared the pilot to turn around and try again. The plane called the tower, but an airport spokesman said the signal was 'very, very weak' and unintelligible. 'The tower tried to call back, and there was no answer,' the spokesman said." The families, aided by hundreds of volunteers and friends, launched a new round of ground searches on October 12. In early November, the search's focus turned to Topsham, Vermont (Vt.), a town 45 miles north of Lebanon, N.H., following a report from a woman who had been driving on Route 302 that morning. Over the Christmas carols on her car radio, "Donna Nelson heard a roar like a cranky furnace firing up on a cold morning. She turned and saw a plane flying 'much, much too low. It was a little over the tree level. I'm not one to look at planes flying around, but it was making this awful noise,' she said." "The jet appeared to be following the road she was on, U.S. Route 302 from Topsham to Barre, Vt. It was just after 10 a.m. on Christmas Eve day (December 24--J.T.)." Yet a search of the Topsham area proved futile. No wreckage was found. According to Major Ron Alie of the N.H. Fish and Game Department, over 275 witness reports were collected this year. Most of them contradict each other. For example, "Two witness reports in Lincoln-- (N.H.) well north (55 miles) of Lebanon--appeared to correlate. A woman who is a member of the local ambulance service looked up from Church Street as she was passing St. James Church and saw 'the belly of a low-flying aircraft.' She said she'd never seen a Lear jet before but it looked like the Lear jets she'd seen in the movies." "At the same time, a hair stylist on Lincoln's North Main Street was working on a client. She looked out the window and saw a jet flying easterly over Main Street. She described it as 'smaller than a military aircraft.' That airplane appeared to be two-tone bluish, she said. It disappeared over Loon Mountain." The Lear jet flown by Schwartz, 31, of Westport, Conn. and Hayes, 30, of Clinton, Conn. was flying at a speed of four miles per minute. Yet, even at that speed, it could not have been over both Topsham, Vt. and Lincoln, N.H., communities 70 miles apart, at just after 10 a.m. Eyewitness reports of "low-flying jets" were also received from Campton, N.H., 70 miles east of Lebanon; East Andover, Croydon and Meriden, and also in Charlestown, N.H., on the river, 40 miles south of Lebanon and 60 miles southeast of Topsham, Vt. "Vermont witness reports came from towns as far south as Putney north to the St. Johnsbury area and to Hardwick, about 10 miles west of St. Johnsbury." (Incidentally, the Hardwick/St. Johnsbury area was the site of several UFO sightings between January and May 1997--J.T.) The families' "grief has been tinged with bitterness that the official search was called off so soon, and that their pleas to resume the search in the spring went unanswered." "'Yes, we realize that there were no survivors, but we're still alive and we should be helping each other,' Jay Hayes said." "Search officials say too much time has elapsed for them to get involved." "Jay Hayes does not know how long he will keep looking." "'Once a year's over, I don't know what I'm going to do,' he said. 'I've done everything I can. But you never give up hope.'" (See the Providence, R.I. Journal-Bulletin for November 30, 1997, "Pilots' Families Still Seek Answers as Anniversary of Crash Nears," and October 13, 1997, "Flight of N.H. Mystery Jet Lingers In Witnesses' Memories.") from the UFO Files... 1909: UFO DAZZLES CROWD OVER MARLBORO Last summer UFO ROUNDUP presented actual newspaper accounts from the 1909 UFO flap in New Zealand. This month we're going to run actual newspaper stories from "L'Affaire Tillinghast," better known as "the New England Airship Invasion of 1909." Although UFOs were seen in Leominster, Massachusetts (Mass.) and White River Junction, Vermont (Vt.) as early as July, the flap really got going in December 1909 with multiple UFO sightings in the small city of Marlboro, Mass., approximately 28 miles (45 kilometers) west of Boston. Here's the actual newspaper story: "One of the most positive proofs of the existence of the airship comes from ex-councilman B.W. Johnson, who says he saw the airship Thursday evening, Dec. 16th, in the southwestern part of the city, and that it came down so low that he could hear a man talking from the craft." The (newspaper) Marlboro Enterprise also refers to ten other sightings in the city that week, including this tantalizing item: "A young man named Beauregard is an authority for the statement that that on the same night (December 16, 1909) the airship landed on the southern side of Lake Williams." On December 21, crowds of Marlboro residents, excited by the Johnson and Beauregard stories, gathered on Main Street to watch the skies. "They saw an aerial craft shooting along the southwestern heavens at a good rate of speed... At the city hall, crowds formed and at 7:45 (p.m.) what looked like a comet showed up and rapidly steered to the southwest and disappeared... Among those who saw it was Officer J.J. Buckley but he would not talk for publication on the matter." (See the Marlboro, Mass. Enterprise for December 22, 1909, page 1.) FUN UFO WEBSITES: James Aho just opened a new website called "The W-Files," an archive on UFO incidents and other paranormal events in Wisconsin. Drop in at http://www.execpc.com/~ahoj/wfiles/index.htm MUFON Connecticut just opened its website this week. For a look at the UFO scene in the Nutmeg State, check in at http://www.geocities.com/ Area51/Zone/9047 For a look at UFOs in Mississippi, try out Jay Michael Long's new website, "MS-UFO Files." Log in at http://www.c-gate.net/~jmichael/ufo/index.html Like Net newsletters? Then you must try out Kent Steadman's great new "CyberSpace ORBIT." Chock full of UFO news, the ORBIT can be accessed at http://www.eagle-net.org/phikent/orbit1a.html Don't overlook our parent site, UFO INFO, full of news, photos and features. Log in at this URL: http://www.digiserve.com/ufoinfo/ For back issues of UFO ROUNDUP, try our website at http://www.digiserve.com/ufoinfo/roundup Today is St. Ambrose Day, which makes the H.P. Lovecraft story in this issue even weirder than it already is. One of Lovecraft's literary idols was American author Ambrose E. Beirce, who vanished in Mexico under very puzzling circumstances back in 1913. A few years later, in 1922, a man named Ambrose Small vanished in Toronto, Canada. The father of ufology, Charles Fort, once wondered if "somebody was collecting Ambroses." If your name is Ambrose, forget you ever read this item... Can't you just visualize H.P. Lovecraft waking up in the dark stone crypt on Yuggoth, looking around in horror and shouting, "Hey! This isn't Benefit Street!" And we'll be back next weekend with more saucer news from "the paper that goes home-- UFO ROUNDUP." UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1997 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from UFO ROUNDUP on their websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Alfred's Odd Ode #202 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 09:28:32 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 14:27:41 -0500 Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #202 Apology to MW #202 (For December 7, 1997) Let's talk about guts, and of misery born: A collection of people ragged, forlorn -- A group labeled dopey, inane, and irrelevant, a group labeled, badly, as a *rare* fringe development. True, some are just lying and working an audience, and some are mistaken by dazzling ambivalence. Some are insane or affected by curse=85 but some tell the truth, for the better or worse. First, a pox on you liars -- hope your damned to perdition =85 hope you fry in some hell as a well earned condition =85 hope you're found out, disgraced -- run out on a rail, with bruises on your face, and tar and feathers on your tail! Those just mistaken? Don't feel like a looser! Read a book, take some notes, then eschew your abuser! Look for proof on _each_ side of anomalous struggles =85 decide for yourself -- It's more fun, and less trouble. Those of you crazy feel lost and alone? Your torment is real, and it goes to the bone. I don't judge you or hate you, or label you hazy, _enigma_ may drive you and make you that crazy. You telling a truth? You're the bravest of all! The Alien View has compelled your tough call. At the risk of disgrace, and in spite of the penalty, you stand, take a breath, and engage an anomaly! Now me, all I see are some lights on the fly =85 Inconclusive, but strange, they are _in_ the night sky! I've studied the footage, and I've read the accounts! The enigma is rampant; It gushes from founts! Conspiracy LIVES! It is _not_ in my mind. The *news* is a joke! If we looked WE WOULD FIND! But, the man holds his purse in his covetous fingers, and the *news* is his stooge, so the ignorance lingers. So, those that laugh, you waste your time; you've nothing here to add. Moreover, you're incurious, and I think it's _you_ that's sad. I think you lack real courage, your head is in the sand, and you lack the stones to open eyes, pay the freight, or take a stand. Lehmberg@snowhill.com Witness their terror and elation, and be, yourself, terrified and elated, smirking bunkies. When the coffee's perked through, and it's time to throw the grounds on the compost heap, it is just as Michael Lindemann said to me in conversation once, at a conference, causing my continuous epiphany, "Most of it's fake, but some of it -- is not." Pearl Harbor? What would _you_ have done after a decade of unethical economic war, and treatment as a cultural, social, and racial inferior? Take the alien view. -- Explore the Alien View? http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/ "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake -- perhaps an experiencer!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 BBC article on Brazilian Conference From: jared@valuserve.com (Andromeda.net- Anderson, Jared) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 10:27:01 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 19:35:06 -0500 Subject: BBC article on Brazilian Conference If anyone on this list is attending the conference please post regularly to keep us apprised of it's progress and content. Jared. >From BBC News http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_37000/37622.stm International scientists have gathered in the Brazilian capital, Brasilia, for a week-long conference which aims to take a serious look at unidentified flying objects. The conference has been billed as the largest gathering of its kind, with more than 50 top UFO researchers from across the world expected to take part. The theory that intelligent beings have visited or are visiting Planet Earth has attracted its share of eccentrics. But ufologists, as they call themselves, want the United Nations to recognize their science as a legitimate subject for study. The discovery of fossilised micro-organisms in a tiny fragment of a meteorite from Mars has rekindled the debate over extra-terrestrial life. According to Nasa scientists, the fossilised remains are the first scientific proof that life can exist elsewhere. I want to believe The popularity of science fiction films like Hollywood's Men in Black and television series like The X Files are a testimony to our fascination with the subject of extra-terrestial life. A recent poll in the United States showed that some 60% of people believe in the existence of intelligent life-forms in space. Despite decades of grainy photographs of flying saucers and other supposed space ships, the existence of UFOs has never been proven. A recently declassified CIA document claims that many of the UFO sightings were experimental jets and the top secret spy planes of their day. Rational explanations often fall on deaf ears. Ufology is a science which lends itself to conspiracy theories and claims of massive government cover-ups. The town of Roswell in New Mexico claims to be the sight of an UFO crash landing in 1947 in which the bodies of aliens were found. It has built a thriving tourist trade around its extra-terrestial connection and even boasts a UFO museum. Speakers from across the world The list of international speakers invited: Antonio Las Heras (Argentina) Barry Chamish (Israel) Bob Brown (USA) Bud Hopkins (USA) Colin Andrews ( England) Cynthia Hind (Zimbabwe) Darush Bagheri (Iran) Derrel Sims (USA) Donald Ware (USA) Edgar Mitchel (USA) G C Schellhorn (USA) G=E1bor Tarcali (Hungary) Glennys Mackay (Australia) Graham Birdsall (England) Jaime Maussan ( Mexico) Jaime Rodriguez (Ecuador) James Hurtak (USA) Javier Cabrera Darquea (Peru) Javier Sierra (Spain) Jerome Clark (USA) Jesse Marcel Junior (USA) Joaquim Fernandes (Portugal) John Carpenter (USA) John Mack (USA) Johsen Takano (Japan) Jorge Alfonso Ramirez (Paraguay) Jorge Martin (Port Rico) Leo Sprinkle (USA) Leonard Nimoy (USA) Linda Howe (USA) Mario Dussuel (Chile) Mark Carlotto (USA) Mauricio Baiata (Italy) Michael Hesemann (Germany) Per Andersen (Denmark) Richard Hoagland (USA) Robert Bauval (England) Robert Dean (USA) Roberto Banchs (Argentina) Roberto Pinotti (Italy) Rodrigo Fuenzalida (Chile) Ryszard Fiejtek (Poland) S. O. Svensson (Sweden) Stanton Friedman (Canada) Sun-Shi Li (China) Timo Koskeniemmi (Finland) Tony Dodd (England) Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos (Spain) Walter Andrus ( USA) Wendelle Stevens (USA) Yuri Guerassimov (Russia) Yves Bosson (France) Yvonne Smith (USA)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 UFO tracking predictions From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 13:25:53 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 19:37:39 -0500 Subject: UFO tracking predictions On Sat 6 Dec 1997 Joel Henry wrote in response to comments from Jennifer Jarvis ... >Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 14:16:22 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, fierycelt@full-moon.com >From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Database interest >>Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 20:23:06 +1030 >>From: JJ <fierycelt@full-moon.com> [Jennifer Jarvis] >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Database interest > [snip] >>I know of a gentleman in England who has researched UFO sightings >>dating back to the late 19th Century. He has discovered >>patterns to the UFO activity all around our planet, and has >>formulated charts and graphs which, as I have found through >>working "in the field," are most helpful in determining the >>optimumum dates and times for possible UFO activity in a given >>area. >What's his name (e-mail address)? I'd like to get ahold of him. >He could be a real beneficial contributor. >>Also, when I have a sighting, I carefully log the time, date, >>duration etc., and feed that information back to this gentleman, >>so that he can add this to his database, thus making his >>prediction system even more accurate. >Good. The better data the better the results. >>I have used these charts in Canada, the United States and England >>with excellent results, meaning that the Unconventional Flying >>Objects/Nocturnal lights or whatever, appear to arrive and depart >>"right on schedule." It is as if I were using a timetable for a >>bus or train, except that, the vehicles involved do not appear to >>be from "around here." >>I have also had feedback from other people around the world to >>whom I have sent specially generated customized charts and graphs >>for their specific areas. Here again, the dates and times >>predicted have been VERY accurate. >Is there a website one can easily access to get access to this >type of data/analysis? It's all very well and good to be able >to do it but not of much use if it is not widely shared (the >goal of the new database). >>Of course, how we use such information is left to our >>"consciences," and, maybe, certain people and agencies may use >>said information for the "wrong reasons." >>I use the charts to enable me to go and see these >>"unconventionals" without the inconvenience of having to wait >>around on the "off-chance" that something MIGHT appear. Very >>useful in our cold Canadian winters. >Being able to predict where and when they will show up is extremely >importanat and I'll bet hundreds of investigator would love to >access this info. > [snip] >If you or the gentlman you mentioned earlier would be interested >in contributing to this effort, it would be much appreciated. >Interest so far is very high. Joel, Jennifer was kind enough to have the gentleman in question mail me one of his sample charts last year. The material (a computer generated chart for my latitude/longitude), and a page of usage instructions, are fascinating. Though I must admit that holding down a fulltime job, authoring and supporting a commercial astronomical database package, and trying to maintain a residual social and personal life have prevented me from doing much with his material to date. If you like, I could scan in the 2 pages and mail them to you, just to show you what he has. Let me know. I also have some (somewhere on diskette) old email correspondence from Jennifer that gives more detail on the rationale behind all this, but I guess I'd prefer that you talk to the source for that. Anyway, the gentleman's name is T. Roy Dutton. Neither the envelope he sent from England nor the enclosed material provides any info at all on how to contact him; no mail address, email address, phone number, notta. Jennifer however has all this info and should be able to provide it to you if she sees fit. -Brian Cuthbertson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: Clark and ETH From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 15:50:14 PST Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 19:53:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark and ETH > From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com> > Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 17:37:13 EST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Clark and ETH > Jerry Clark wrote in reply to a posting of mine: > >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] > >Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:26:29 PST > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Clark and ETH > <snip> > >As I've said more than once before, you are in serious > >need of a new rhetorical style. > I think you would improve *your* rhetorical style, Jerry, if you > took a deep breath, actually read the arguments I am trying to > put forth, and tried not to project your own mind-set onto me, > making allegations that I am being some kind of egocentric > lunatic just because I question some tenets of ET ufology. I > naturally observe a spectrum within ET ufology from the nutter > fringe to a more sober expression of the same belief (though the > gap between these ends of the spectrum seem to be getting closer > all the time), but it is that essential belief, that ET motif as > a whole, that I am suggesting we question (but am NOT saying we > should abandon as one possible explanation for things-seen-in-the > sky). But I do not accept *at all* your claim that mainstream > ufology is not besotted with the ETH/ETM. It has changed over the > decades, of course, but that is part of the problem with the ET > motif as a whole, a point I keep trying to make. I stand by my assertion that the ETH no longer dominates ufology. As I've reflected on your contrary assistance, it occurs to me that maybe you think ufologists mean "extraterrestrials" when they say "aliens." My experience is that when you ask them what they mean, they generally are quick to say they do NOT mean ETs but extradimensional entities, psychic phenomena, ultraterrestrials, elementals, or the like. This, of course, reflects the huge influence of Keel and Vallee on latterday ufology. It also occurs to me that the ETH exists in your mental universe as a sort of convenient whipping boy, a source of all evil in ufology and, not so incidentally, the one reason your theories are not widely embraced within the field. I'm sure you're a decent guy, Paul, but I do think -- from, for one thing, the experience of trying to communicate with you on this list -- that you have a problem hearing other people. I also think you don't really understand how you come across to people. > It wish you would not automatically put yourself in a defensive > posture of assuming everything I am saying is wrong, egocentric, > foolish and mad. I think you are wrong. I think you are egocentric (to the extent that you seem to believe that people who disagree with you are not just mistaken but actively deluded, and moreover in ways you are happy to explain to them -- and then you get uptight and self-righteous when they respond with, to the rest of us, utterly predictable bristling). I have never said, and do not believe, you are "foolish" or "mad." I have said repeatedly that your ideas are interesting, inventive, and deserving of discussion. As far as I can tell, you think your views deserve nothing short of universable embrace, the more immediately the better, and anyone who thinks otherwise, like me, is somehow beyond the pale. > It might work best if you took a few days to consider your > responses instead of coming straight back with all your emotional > guns blazing. That way you might avoid the ad hominem insults, > the denigratory comments, and schoolyard-style catcalling that > stud this posting: Had I the time or inclination, I could compile a long, long list of things you have said that would strike most observers as condescending and even insulting. If you think it is "denigatory" and "schoolyard-style catcalling" to have said to you that "your mind is made up" and you tend at times to the bombastic and dogmatic, then your skin is so thin that it must be transparent. (A line from the great Edward G. Robinson film Little Caesar comes to mind: You've been dishin' it out so long you can't take it no more.) If I said you were a charlatan, a swindler, a social misfit, or a mental case (which I do not believe for a nanosecond), THAT would be "denigatory" and "schoolyard-style catcalling." Of course that would also be the rhetorical style of John Keel, whom just yesterday you were fervently defending. > >There's plenty of room for reasoned discussion and debate in > >ufology. > Not with you, it seems. Well, don't worry, I won't bother trying > any more. Note the strain of self-pity in that last sentence. Paul, look: You cannot make sweeping statements and expect not to be challenged. You need a fresh rhetorical style which does not demonize those of us who harbor honest differences of opinion from you and which, moreover, does not require you to play the victim all the time. Pardon the cliche, but you know the one about the heat in the kitchen. Maybe in the future you should let somebody else do your cooking for you. In sorrow and frustration, Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: Clark and ETH From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:03:05 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 20:20:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark and ETH >>From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] >>Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:26:29 PST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Clark and ETH Jerry, A couple of idle questions while passing a cold, rainy Sunday at the keyboard, an NFL game on in the background. You've several times cited the 1957 RB-47 radar/visual case as a sort of exemplary argument (or case) for the ETH. I just went back and read the entry (p. 505ff) in your new paperback, The UFO Book, and it occurs to me that if you take the data from the case and apply it in scientific fashion using the ETH as a starting (or ending) point, it really tells us very little about, for want of a better word, any theoretical aliens that might have been inside the UFO(s), or, for that matter, much about UFOs in particular. In other words, what can one extrapolate from such a case and apply to UFOs and ETs as, say, a general rule (which is one of the ways science works)? One can't say, for example, that UFOs tend to travel in pairs (they don't), that they always appear on radar (they don't), that they display bright blue lights (not always), that they routinely play tag with airplanes (they don't), or that they're piloted by grays who abduct humans, resulting in hybrid babies. Can we say that what the RB-47 pilots saw was the same thing that Kenneth Arnold saw a decade earlier or that Lonnie Zamora reported seven years later, or that any of the above had anything to do with Zeta 2 Reticuli? Despite the presence of a UFO category (radar/visual), one has to wonder (or at least ask) whether the RB-47 case isn't closer to being sui generis, and if all cases in the category might not ultimately, if everything were known, turn out to be sui generis cases, too. (Which is obviously not to say that they wouldn't be highly suggestive nonetheless.) All that can be said with certainty is that some UFOs show up, on occasion, on radar. We also know, just as frequently, that many don't on many more occasions. So are the two phenomena actually one and the same? Some ufologists have responded in the past by saying, well, sometimes the aliens want to be detected on radar, and other times they don't. But this uses the theory to prove the theory -- in short, it refers to alien motives to account for reported behavior. We see the same thing today when ufologists like Jacobs and Hopkins start talking about "selective invisibility" to explain why some UFOs are seen and others aren't -- although how the ETH or any other hypothesis could account for something that isn't seen could ever be proved or even investigated is beyond me. At one time in UFO history (before, of course, Stealth technology was even in a gleam in a young electrical engineer's eye), radar/visuals were thought to be the strongest evidence in favor of the ETH. It seemingly never occurred to us (without resort to alien motives) that the selfsame technology that could fly between the stars would also be radar invisible by design from the outset. Now, we have vastly more (and more sophisticated) radars in operation everywhere -- so many that the government couldn't possibly cover-up every anomalous radar reading in the world -- yet recent radar/visual cases are relatively rare -- odd, given the millions of abductions over major metropolitan areas alleged by some ufologists. Even if anomalous radar returns numbered only in the hundreds of thousands, or thousands of cases, or routinely occurred on a nightly basis, one might expect that every other air traffic controller in the world would be a fervent subscriber to IUR or the MUFON Journal. The same sorts of questions could be asked about the category of physical trace cases. Do we get them much anymore? Is there a good physical trace case which is also a good radar/visual case? If not, why not? Is there a good case which is physical trace, radar/visual, daylight disk *and* multiple witness? If not, why not? Put another way, the more we learn about UFOs, the more reported parameters should theoretically collapse into a manageable set of circumstances and characteristics. Imagine a huge pyramid representing the body of UFO reports. Theoretically, the point of the pyramid should represent the ur-UFO. Instead, we seem to have a body of UFO reports in which the base of the pyramid is sticking up in the sky, the whole suspended on a tiny point (Arnold?). In short, the more UFO reports we get, the more kinds of UFOs we have to account for. And while I'm willing to admit we may have been visited, I'm not yet ready to accept the notion that we're a Seven-Eleven convenience store (Zip in, zip out) on some intergalactic highway. Or if we were, that any government in the world could ever hope to cover it up. Sunday idling. Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 16:52:02 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 20:39:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 10:24:03 -0700 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Jilain <jilain@rt66.com> [Jilain Jones] > Subject: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] > >Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 17:45:01 PST > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > <big time major snip> > >I will let readers of the list familiar with my writing judge for > >themselves whether my writing evinces serious mental disorder > >-- surely the most unique criticism ever made of it, I must say. > <more snipping> > >Cheers, > >Jerry Clark > Hello all :) > I have just joined the list, and thus have missed a great deal of > this conversation. (Haven't had time to check the archives and > catch up on it as yet). But the above statement really caught my > eye. It never ceases to amaze me how quickly an "armchair > diagnosis" of mental disorder rears its head when dealing with > those who investigate any aspect of the ufo/alien phenomenon. > I know a gentleman who has been investigating ufos for 30 years > or so. He once told me that you will know when you're "hitting > too close to home" when people stop debating the data you present > and start attacking you personally. I've found that to be a true > statement. > I personally find the whole thing quite intriguing. Once the > personal attacks start, I REALLY start paying close attention to > what someone is saying. And I've found that nine times out of > ten, the one doing the attacking is reacting to the "hitting of a > nerve" by someone else. From there, its generally just a matter > of time before there is some indication given as to what the > "nerve" is all about. <snip> > Anyway, I shall go back into lurk mode for a while now. :) > See ya around > Jilain Jilain: You make a very perceptive observation about following personal attacks and trying to discern what the "nerve" is all about. However, if you had followed this discussion a little sooner, you would have learned that Jerome Clark also attacked John Keel by calling him "paranoid" and his theories "half-baked". Part of this seems to stem from some previous personal attacks that Keel made on Clark, and according to Clark, on many others. So, in this case, the personal attacks are going both ways, and the "nerve" itself seems to be the mutual attacks on each others' mental stability. If you have any kids jealous of the amount of attention each seems to think the other is getting, you may recognize the scenario. Unfortunately, the attacks seem to be spilling over into each others' theories. While the work of both Keel and Clark can be respected in their own way (from certain viewpoints) their attitudes towards each other can not, since it can only result in unnecessarily affecting the perceptions of readers towards the work each is doing. This in turn hurts the whole UFO community and the likelihood of professional scholary advancement in this field. If I may expand upon your idea further, rather than following "personal attacks" and trying to discern what the "nerve' is all about, I find it more interesting and instructional to follow when some participants, especially the "lurkers" (myself included) suddenly react to something said on this List. If I am any kind of example, a lot of lurkers start by feeling somewhat intimidated when following discussions by "respected" authors or researchers. After a while something that they say may hit you like a bolt of lightning from within, and for a while you wonder why you reacted the way you did. I think that this may be an extremely important indicator that there is some intuitive knowledge, important connection, or subconsious resolution that, as you say, may be "hitting too close to home". When this hits, you may quickly react and send a message before you really realize why you did it. Sometimes (often?) you may actually regret it. Other times you may think it over for a while, realize why you reacted, and post a more substantial message. But often you will find that others may also react the way you did, and this lends greater support for that "hidden truth". That is why I think it is important for "lurkers" to contribute when they feel that their nerve was hit by a sledgehammer. There is no need to be profound - there is no need to feel that you are "competing" with the intelligences of some of the more refined researchers and authors. Their books are meant to be read by people like you, and the more professinal of them will respect and try to learn from your reactions and experiences. As for the rest of them, they don't deserve any respect, and they'll quickly learn that you don't support them by not buying their books. So, when more lurkers (especially experiencers) contribute by sharing when they feel their "nerve" has really been hit, they may each start to contribute their little personal piece to the whole puzzle. The more pieces that are placed on the table and put together, the better will be the ability to start to see the bigger picture. From my perspective, it appears that the reactionary messages are far more revealing in the fast ways to the truth than the long drawn out deliberations of mote points of theoretical discussions (although they are obviously valuable and necessary). I only need to point out posts such as by John Velez and Cathy Johnson to illustrate my point. Just because the "respected" researchers say that John or Cathy couldn't have experienced what they repeatedly state was exactly the way it happened, doesn't mean that the the researchers are necessarily right. It is time to take exactly what experiencers say they experienced as an equally important possibility, and develop reasonable theories to try to explain it from that perspective. And the best way for that to happen is if more experiencers come forward and start protesting when their "nerve" has been insulted by arm-chair, scientifically-endowed theorists who have the paradoxically "occult" ability to know your state of mind better than you do. John Koopmans
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: Just what is an abduction experience? From: Julie Presson <earthwrk@doitnow.com> Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 14:36:01 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 20:44:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Just what is an abduction experience? > From: ufo1@juno.com [Jack Sargeant] > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: Just what is an abduction experience? > Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 08:17:14 EST > >From: rfsignal@sprynet.com [Cathy Johnson] > >Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:07:47 -0800 > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > My compliments to the list and to Cathy. Hi Jack, [...] > It would seem there is confusion on the part of some as to > what actually takes place in the physical sense. Too many > want to associate a purely psychological reason for your > kind of experience. So, please put the doubting Thomases > and arm-chair psychologists into a more enlightened > frame of thought. I wanted to address this part of your message as there seems to be some confusion or lack of understanding of paranormal activity verses psychological manifestations. First off they are NOT the same thing. Does that mean a person who experiences a paranormal event is imagining what happened. ABSOLUTELY NOT! In my believe system paranormal events are REAL in all ways. The point that has not been mentioned here to my knowledge is this, what affects the astral body is seen on the physical body. Anyone who has studied the older material by people like Blavatsky, Leadbeater, or Fortune to name a few knows this. It is one of the primary teachings in the older Occult works. There is more than the physical body and all students of the Occult (Which means Hidden and nothing more) and anyone who have bothered to read at all anything that was published before the rash of New Age material started coming out in the late 70s knows this. Yes, there is a vast difference between New Age practitioners and those who are serious students of the Occult. I see people confusing the two because of a lack of understanding often here and elsewhere, or throwing it around to try and discount other peoples view of abduction. Now if a person wants to believe there experience is explainable with a physical explanation that is their right, however there is no way they should discount the experiences of those who see it as a paranormal event. We all have to remember we are going to reference our experience from the view of reality we are choosing to view at any given time. So is anyone wrong in there view, NO...not at this point anyway. Why??? Because there is NO concrete evidence to base what abduction is at this time. It is all speculation as to what the foundation of the event is. All we have as humans is our subjective view of the experience. My subjective perspective after seeing and experiencing is that it is inter-dimensional and NOT purely physical in nature. To someone else they think it is purely physical. So you are never going to get a consensus on this until there is some honest properly done research on abduction. And you still may not have an answer... > You know me, Cathy, and know I am not asking this in a > tongue-in-cheek manner. ...But in a legitimate quest to > educate those who really don't know what it's all about. Jack, do you know what it is all about? You are asking Cathy to relate her subjective view, not the view of every person ever abducted. Her experience is very different than Clarke's, so should that invalidate his experience? I think we both know the answer to that, no. No ONE persons view of there experience should invalidate anyone else's. When it is allowed to then the person who is trying to force their view on the world needs to ask themselves why their view is anymore valid than anyone else's. We all need to remember we are ONLY sharing our view here or elsewhere on abduction or anything else for that matter. :-) However a complete psychological makeup is a necessary tool in real research by a "real" team of Therapists who are objective on the subject of abduction. A complete family history, personality inventories, etc. I believe this should be done in a double blind study so there is one team the subject is sent to that has no idea the person feels they were abducted. There is no need to even mention it for the proper testing to be done to get a good view of the personality types and family history of the people that are experiencing these events. I would bet there are a number of abductees who would be willing to do this around the country. This testing has nothing to do with finding out if someone is crazy, it has everything to do with creating a profile and nothing more. If anyone thinks it is for anything other than objective research then they need to ask themselves why they would object to "real" honest objective research into this. Research is an important and valid tool when done properly. It is to easy for a few people to say you insulted them by giving your view to stop any honest information exchange and censor the views of others on abduction. Are we here to find out what is really going on, or are we here to stroke the egos of a few people??? I AM here to find out what is really going on and if that steps on the toes of a few people them so-be-it. After all we are supposed to be adults, right. ;-) Thank you for giving me the opportunity to walk though the door you opened with this message to express my views openly and honestly. Julie
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 23:53:54 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 20:45:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony >Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:40:51 -0500 >From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony >Sender: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Regarding... >>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:14:49 -0500 >>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony James Easton wrote to Bob Shell: >Wonderful. Please, let's hear why your assessment of the Arnold >case concludes that suggestion doesn't make sense. >I trust it's not simply that the explanation is too mundane. >That did bother me, until I remembered how mundane - balloons, >balloon wreckage, lighthouse beacons, misidentified stars, space >debris, etc. - the explanations were for many 'classic' UFO >cases. Errr.... James, The lighthouse beacon was the explanation by some British 'ufologists' for the Woodbridge/Bentwaters case. Might I ask you whether you actually agree with that explanation? __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: Just what is an abduction experience? From: ufo1@juno.com [Jack Sargeant] Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 18:15:07 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 20:48:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Just what is an abduction experience? >From: rfsignal@sprynet.com [Cathy Johnson] >Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:04:41 -0800 >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Just what is an abduction experience? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: ufo1@juno.com [Jack Sargeant] >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Just what is an abduction experience? >>Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 08:17:14 EST >Dear Jack and List, >I haven't posted for quite a while because of the flavours of >arguments going on in technical legalese that I could barely >interpret. [Huh? - ebk] Now, I have something I can reply to, >because you asked for it. ...And admirably done. Reminds me of the good old days when you and a few dozen others were participating in the "Experiencers Only" thread. (Most of this data is gone forever - a tremendous loss.) ...But most of you have scattered to the 4 points of the compass, and no longer involved with the Fidonet echoes. I wish I could gather all of you together again to post your experiences again. (More wishful dreaming.) <grin> >PS: >Anyone know where I can get warrantee work on my defective >implants? Sure, just contact Dow Corning... ...Er, sorry, wrong kind of implants. ;-) Best regards, Jack P.S. Thanks for the great reply.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: "Clarke Hathaway <earthwrk@doitnow.com> Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 19:02:30 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 23:02:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 02:51:30 -0500 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > >From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com> > >Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:42:46 EST > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > >John Velez wrote: > >>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:41:16 -0500 > >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> > >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > >>Until about six years ago I had rationalized my lifetime of > >>unexplained experiences and memories as OOBE's (out of body > >>exp's) vivid nightmares, and several unexplained objects (UFO > >>sightings) I had seen in the sky (throughout my life - beginning > >>in childhood) that simply didn't fit in with anything -I- knew > >>of... > ><mega-snip> > Hi Paul, hi All, > Paul wrote, > >Thank you for your honest account. Most revealing. > Please don't take this remark personally Paul as it is not > directed at you specifically. The reason I wrote that e-mail is > because I'm a little tired of having 'other people' tell me what > I have experienced. <snip> Hello John and my compliments to the list. > We all have scoop marks as well. I could go on here quite a bit > about the "physical" aspects of this that have convinced me that > something real world, real time, and physical is not only > interacting with us, they leave behind evidence on our bodies. So do I John, though I believe that you well know that I have a decidedly different view of this than yourself. It is not incumbant upon me however to attempt to invalidate your version of reality. Paul approaches my position with his stated opinion, but I don't feel that his view is quite broad enough. > >What you describe is in fact a shifting from one > >frame of reference(OOBE) to another (alien abduction), > No. You are trying to put the round peg I put out there into a > square hole! > I told you that I am an experienced meditator. Over seventeen > years worth and (daily) I am -very- familiar with altered states. > Some (not all) of what I recall happened in the light of full > waking consciousness. It is why those memories never left me. > They left a deep impression, and defied explanation for almost > all of my life. Take my word for it Paul, I'm capable of telling > the difference between an "altered mental state" and a "real > event", why is that so hard for people to accept? Everyone > insists that, "Well John, after all, it -must be- something > else!" Well it's not! It's exactly what I say it is, I was there, > I saw, I felt, I heard, I remembered! Unless you have a > convincing arguement why I shouldn't trust my own faculties and > senses then I stand my ground. John, Meditation is not synonymous with what in my view is occurring. In point of fact John, most of us humans serve to severely limit what we really are. We are multi-dimensional beings John and each component is interrelated and connected. What effects one component necessarily has some effect on the others. I have had extensive, long term experience with meditation. I was first introduced to the concepts of Zen while a five and a half year old child in Japan. That was in 1948. Soon after arriving there, I was enrolled into a school of Juijutsu with an instructor (sensai) who spoke no english. Needless to say I soon learned Japanese! I digress however. I was initiated into Transendental Meditation in January of 1970. While the altered state one achieves is certainly profound, it is only a mere step towards what one experiences in more esoteric practices. You see John, I AM also a near life-long student of metaphysics or the occult in some folks terminology. Therefore I came to recognise the phenomena for what it really represented during a period of intense visitation of more than a year in duration. These were sometimes followed with bruises, scratch marks as well as incidents of sleep deprivation. I must stress how- ever that at no time did any of the phenomena occur in third dimensional reality. I found that I could interact (with recall) with the perpetrators of the events while in that state between sleep and fully awake. During one episode for instance, I was being pulled up out of my body by a tall Gray who had a hold on my forearms while he was streatched down toward me through the ceiling above. He gave off a distinct feeling of surprise when he realized that I had become aware of what he was up to when Julie told me to lie back and he wouldn't be able to pull me up. I can assure you that these beings though not physical, can and do cause minor physical effects. A short list would include sound (like unseen footsteps) as well as small objects moved in rare examples. > If I thought that what I remembered was a purely psychological or > spiritual issue you wouldn't know me and I'd be happily babbling > away to some shrink about it. But that's not the case Paul. I'm a > (fairly) sane, stable and self actualizing individual and I > -know- what has happened to me and what I have remember for all > my life as real but unexplainable events. I AM puzzled why you would apparently assume that you would be in need of psychological counsel after experiencing something that is easily explainable in parapsychological terms? There is a paradox here John. I fail to understand how people are not in the least taken aback by a story concerning a young mother who relates that she was physically 'floated' out of a 12th storey apartment through a locked, solid, plate glass window and then up into a waiting flying saucer above. Forgive me John, but in my view the person who believes such a thing is the one most in need of psychological counseling. I guess that would have to include some rather well known researchers wouldn't it? If an Alien culture has the means to alter the molecular structure of an object in order to pass it through solid barriers and given that it is more in the interest of these beings to maintain a covert presence so as to operate undetected, why on earth would they have 'floated' this women through a plate glass window and then up into a saucer waiting above where everyone and their mother could observe them? Sorry, doesn't make much sense. My point is ... wouldn't it be more likely that they would have simply 'beamed' her up through the intervening structure above directly into the ship? > Why are UFO/alien "real events" any different from any of the > other "real events" in my life? I remember them both the same. It > is only 'other people' who make a distinction between them, not > me. Well, I understand your question and sympathize with your feelings.The truth is, they are both real. My question to you is: Why do you persist in limiting your perception? You are only serving to limit yourself. It is obvious to me that there is much more going on with John Velez than John himself realizes. ;-) > >moreover, you came to make that shift because of influence from > >outside (you were given "the pattern"), from someone who may not > >have a clue about what this experience is like from the inside. > You know Paul, this one is just a thinly disguised insult. I don't necessarily agree John. I believe that Paul is attempting to honestly explain something with only partial tools to work with. I don't feel that he is trying to insult you at all. Nor AM I. > 1. I am not now, nor have I ever been a 'follower' or 'easily > influenced.' I am a very headstrong and self-directed individual > with healthy and functional critical abilities. Sometimes John, this attitude can act to our disadvantage. I don'tread anywhere in Paul's commentary anything at all about leading vs. following. By way of contrast, what I see Paul attempting to say (from my vantage point) is that during your experience (in light of my own) you bought into the experience as constituting one occurring within a 3rd dimensional framework. This is not surprising as that was and is these beings intentions all along. They are master manipulators and powerful telepaths. > 2. I remember "grey men with big black eyes" since I was a small > child. I'm 49 where was your "outside influence" coming from in > the early fifties? About the wierdest thing I was exposed to back > then was Andy Devines cat "Midnight" He used to dress it up in > strange costumes and then strap it to a turntable and spin the > cat while he played music! If you're telling me that Midnight > the cat is the basis of all my abduction related memories you may > have an arguement, it -was- a pretty disturbing thing to see. <G> Yes, me too! I AM 54. I recall extremely disturbing dream-reality as occurring during the years we lived in Japan. I suspect today that I experienced abduction events perhaps beginning there. The thought just occurred to me that if this is true, what part if any did my introduction into altered states of consciousness have to do with these circumstances? In relationship to ole Andy Devine, I used to get antsy when he would invoke the frog on the "Buster Brown" show with "Plunk Your Magic Twanger Froggy". It was the upcoming image of "froggy" saying "Hi Yuh Kids, Hi Yuh". The image of that frog bouncing around was always unsettling to me. Interesting. I have never related that to anyone before. <grin> > 3. No-one "gave me the pattern." When I read the accounts of the > abductees for the first time I recognized it immediately [from my > own] lifetime of experiences and memories. Nobody put it there or > suggested it! IT WAS ALREADY THERE PAUL. That set of memories was > in place long before I ever encountered abduction related > anything. > 4. We're not (all) as gullible as many would like to think. > Besides I'm not an easy mark for that kind of crap. Among my > functional equipment I also have an excellent bullshit detector. Again. You have more than one body. They co-exsist just out of phase to one another in the same space. They are all interconnected. If the psychic impression lets say in the astral is powerul enough it is easily possible if not probable to experience like effects in the 3rd dimensional reference. I must respectfully submit that if what you say above were in fact true John, it would not be possible for you to be an abduction experiencer. Period! > But to answer your "real" question,... > No, Budd [nor anyone else] didn't "plant patterns" or try > influence me. I recognized the elements of the "pattern" Paul > because they -happened to me- not because I read it or heard it > somewhere. I can't state that Budd Hopkins planted patterns John. But for thesake of honesty here, I have witnessed on video tape, Budd Hopkins employing leading questions to abduction subjects. > >Like you, I do. And like you, the entities I have seen look solid, > >can touch me (and bite and scratch) and I can touch them. But > >even your experience of touching something solid in "real, waking > >life" is a mental effect, John. The experience is put together > >inside your brain. > OK, then let me hit you in the mouth as hard as I can with a 38 > ounce Louisville Slugger and then on our way to the hospital you > can tell me [if you can] what part of the experience was just > something that was "put together in your brain!" <G> From my side > of the fence it's a fair analogy. Perhaps your famous temper (another result of wayward attitude) is getting the better of you here John. You would be far better served by realizing that you are NOT omnipotent nor do you have very many answers when it comes to these subjects. I find your comments as above to Paul as unfortunate and based upon a lack of understanding on your part. This kind of behavior is sad. Again. Yes your experience(s) were and are real. I believe that just as I accept that mine are. I don't believe that anyone is attempting to steer you otherwise. In my view however, it is your perception of the events and your understanding of them that is wayward here. Perhaps if it were otherwise, you would come to find that you are able to control the flow of these events far more effectively than you have heretofore dreamed possible. > >Now, I don't know what these entities truly are, I'm keeping my > >powder dry on that issue, > Prudent,...smart! Translated: He hasn't yet invested enough time into the research thereof in order to arrive at any diffinitive conclusions. > >As for the physical body being visible when in an OBE state, > >that's by no means always true. I have just completed a survey > >of the OBE literature, and quite a few of the leading lights > >in OBEs or "astral projection" (that's the Theosophical belief > >frame for the experience, now a bit out of date) never could see > >their bodies. Their beds seemed empty. > On a wall about four feet away from me are a few certificates > that I've picked up along the way. One of them is a letter from > the United Lodge of Theosophists. I was a student and a member > for some seven years. I cannot help but state that such letters and/or certificates of attendence are easily aquired John. One merely attends. The key thing here is what one absorbs and is capable of putting to practical use. I AM sorry John, but based upon your statements above, I shall reserve my opinion as to the veracity of the stated education. It would seem moreover that given these circumstances you would display a bit more understanding than you have. > When I said in my last post that what was happenening to me was > "abduction related and not what is taught or described by the > mystics it is based on an -intimate- and broad knowledge of the > material. Like I said Paul, I -know- the difference. No cigar > here either. I AM not buying this John, though in your mind you quite possibly believe that you have a firm grip on what composes these events. The proof is: John are you capable of providing any concrete evidence to display where you are right and anyone with a different view is wrong? I ask straight out John, are you capable of controlling your abductions and causing them to cease? > >As for physical marks, well, I think they could be explained by > >several approaches. > The one that is always conspicuosly absent is, -we are telling > the truth and we got them where and how we say we got them.- It's > amazing how -that one- never makes it to the table. Come on John. 98% of abductees and more researchers than I care tothink about take the easy explanation out. That is exactly what the beings that perpetrate these events desire John. In buying into that and not seeking to realize your potential, you are furthering their ends. Nice job! > >But one, at least, is a form of stigmata. > Show me just one example of "stigmata" that leaves a permanent > crater in your skin! Show me just one "stigmata case" that mimics > -any- of the marks found on the bodies of abductees. Yeah, I still have a permanent 'crater' in my skin too John. If you would do a basic study upon the Etheric, Astral and Physical bodies and their interrelationship, you should soon come to a realization of how something psychically traumatic can be experienced in the Astral and result in physical symptomology. > Also, "stigmata" by definition 'appear' disappear, and then > reappear again. The marks on our bodies appear overnight and > stick around for a lifetime. I think comparing what we have to > "stigmata" is a case of 'mistaken identity' A poor example I would agree. > >In tribal societies, as I have also written elsewhere on this > >list (I do hope you catch some of this stuff, John - it is relevant to > >you and your co-experients), the shaman can sport marks and wounds > >he claims were inflicted on him my spirits while on his out-of-body > >journey. I have seen some of the anthropological photos of this. > I guess if you gave me enough psilocybin, or kava-kava root I'd > pick up a few marks myself! <G> I also have an interest in anthropology and have come across evidencesimilar to that Paul is referring to. This is not to suggest that current anthropological theorum can serve to supply a convenient answer to the seemingly inexplicable riddle of abduction events/experiences and attendant physical effects. It cannot. Nor do I believe Paul is suggesting in anyway that the mechanism that results in physical marks upon the shaman being understood. Not all shamanistic journying is accompanied or predicated by the usage of mind altering substances. > >What you describe shows quite clearly that you are prone to these > >states of consciousness, John, but that of course does not make > >your * experiences* any less valid or realistic. > For someone who has never met me that's a pretty heavy diagnosis! > How on Gods' good earth could you possibly know what I'm "prone > to" or not? Do you freelance on the psychic hotline? I will disagree with Paul's terminology "realistic". This would indicate that the event itself constituted something other than real. It shows that perhaps he is on the path to understanding, but so far has not realized it. These experiences are REAL! PERIOD! What is not being clearly seen or recognised by many ... is the frame of reference of that reality. Once one comes to a semblance of understanding concerning this, one becomes capable of exercising a greater degree of control over what is occurring. > >It is such a pity so few people seem to want to know of the middle > >way between naive literalism and out-and-out debunking in these > >matters. > I like that Paul! Nice capper. First we're all mis-interpreting > our experiences, then - we are all such easily influenced and > weak minded boobs, that possibly all of our memories are the > result of "outside influence" and now,. . . the creme de la > creme,---we're "naive" We all have a right to the reality which we create. ;-) > What a neat package! Misunderstanding, easily influenced, and > naive! Paul my man, if it helps you to get through the night to > believe that, then you have my blessings. If you really believe > it, you have my sympathy. > If my experiences were "something else" then I'd simply say so. > My experiences and memories are what they are and what I have > reported. You can dance around it all you want, it just is what > it is. Maybe one day you'll consider including in your list of > possible explanations, "we are simply telling the truth and > reporting what we remember." > I came by my views the hard way Paul. I was not prepared to > accept alien abduction as an explanation either, but after > recieving confirmation after confirmation of the physical nature > of these encounters it's hard for me to deny it. I've seen > classic flying saucers close up in broad daylight with other > witnesses. I'm not a "UFO believer", like Mr S says, "I'm a UFO > -KNOWER!" John, I have to date seen NO documented evidence except with one possible exception that would suggest that Abductions have any relationship to the incidence of UFO/Flying Saucer sightings. While I concede based upon that lone exception plus a provisional second that such rare occurrances have happened, I suspect that the bulk of these events are occurring as described by me above. That is, that they constitute events occurring within the Astral plane. I have an effective modality of dealing with these visitations. I really don't give a flying fig for any negative commentary by would be detractors. I have something that works and I have ceased to play the role of victim. If anyone out there can make the same claim, then I congratulate them! Clarke Hathaway
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 22:40:03 PST Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 23:10:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 16:52:02 -0800 > From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > > Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 10:24:03 -0700 > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > From: Jilain <jilain@rt66.com> [Jilain Jones] > > Subject: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > > >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] > > >Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 17:45:01 PST > > >To: updates@globalserve.net > > >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > > <big time major snip> > > >I will let readers of the list familiar with my writing judge for > > >themselves whether my writing evinces serious mental disorder > > >-- surely the most unique criticism ever made of it, I must say. > > <more snipping> > > >Cheers, > > >Jerry Clark > > Hello all :) > > I have just joined the list, and thus have missed a great deal of > > this conversation. (Haven't had time to check the archives and > > catch up on it as yet). But the above statement really caught my > > eye. It never ceases to amaze me how quickly an "armchair > > diagnosis" of mental disorder rears its head when dealing with > > those who investigate any aspect of the ufo/alien phenomenon. > > I know a gentleman who has been investigating ufos for 30 years > > or so. He once told me that you will know when you're "hitting > > too close to home" when people stop debating the data you present > > and start attacking you personally. I've found that to be a true > > statement. > > I personally find the whole thing quite intriguing. Once the > > personal attacks start, I REALLY start paying close attention to > > what someone is saying. And I've found that nine times out of > > ten, the one doing the attacking is reacting to the "hitting of a > > nerve" by someone else. From there, its generally just a matter > > of time before there is some indication given as to what the > > "nerve" is all about. > <snip> > > Jilain > Jilain: > You make a very perceptive observation about following personal > attacks and trying to discern what the "nerve" is all about. > However, if you had followed this discussion a little sooner, you > would have learned that Jerome Clark also attacked John Keel by > calling him "paranoid" and his theories "half-baked". Part of > this seems to stem from some previous personal attacks that Keel > made on Clark, and according to Clark, on many others. John, I'm afraid you're entirely wrong here. That doesn't, of course, make you a bad person; it's just that, by your own admission, you're new to this field, and I'd bet you haven't read much of what I've written outside this list. It's also apparent that you haven't read much Keel to speak of, either; otherwise you wouldn't have that "according to Clark" in your last line. You'd have seen the evidence with your own eyes. I called Keel's ideas, not John himself, "half-baked." I am opposed to personal attacks. If you think Keel and I are sinning equally, please read my earlier posting in which I quote Keel writing vituperously on ufologists and Forteans, as he has for many years, using language few of us would employ even in anger. I challenge you to find me using comparable language anywhere. In this field there are many points of view, and I have friends who hold just about all of them. My range of friends in ufology runs the gamut from skeptics to contactees. I get along fine with them, and they with me, and occasionally we even mix it up in print or in correspondence without anyone's mistaking legitimate dissent for personal animosity. Keel's ideas, in my judgment, are misguided, for reasons about which I have written at length. Please go to your local bookstore, pick up my UFO Book, and read my essay on "Paranormal and Occult Theories." You don't even have to buy the book. Just learn where I'm coming from, so you don't have to engage in misguided speculation about who I am and what I'm about. > So, in this case, the personal attacks are going both ways, and > the "nerve" itself seems to be the mutual attacks on each others' > mental stability. If you have any kids jealous of the amount of > attention each seems to think the other is getting, you may > recognize the scenario. Unfortunately, the attacks seem to be > spilling over into each others' theories. The personal attacks are NOT going both ways, unless you are arguing that one's protests at being slandered are morally equivalent to the circulating of the slander to which the victim is objecting. I abandoned Keelian views in the late 1970s, when I came to see them as poorly conceived, essentially meaningless, and often out-and-out credulous. This had NOTHING to do with my feelings about Keel, whom I continued to like, though we had long since drifted apart. The last time I saw John was in Connecticut in 1989. We went out to dinner together and had a merry time. Afterwards I wrote him a good-humored letter. The issue where Keel is concerned is, it seems, me. The issue where I am concerned is his ideas, as you would know if you were conversant in what I have published on the subject. > While the work of both Keel and Clark can be respected in their > own way (from certain viewpoints) their attitudes towards each > other can not, since it can only result in unnecessarily > affecting the perceptions of readers towards the work each is > doing. This in turn hurts the whole UFO community and the > likelihood of professional scholary advancement in this field. Give me a break. Please read what I have read about Keel's theoriesl in my books and articles. (Please read my UFO Encyclopedia, incidentally, if you want to learn something about "professional scholarly advancement in this field," which is what reviewers said they thought this was.) Though I have my private suspicions, I have not once written of Keel as crazy, socially inept, or pathetic -- adjectives he habitually hurls, in print and elsewhere, against all who disagree with him. If Keel were to write articles challenging my ideas, precisely as I have done with his, there would be no problem, only healthy, entertaining, and (one would hope) ultimately enlightening debate. Personal attacks are pointless, counterproductive, and boring. I need no lecture from you on that score, since this was precisely the point I was making (and apparently you were missing) when I raised the issue of Keel's ad hominem excesses. I wish John Keel believed, as I do and I presume you do, in rational debate, but I simply fail to see by what peculiar logic my criticizing him for that makes me morally equivalent to him. Perhaps you could explain it to me. If, on the other hand, you want to direct your words to Keel, which is where they ought to be addressed, I'll gladly give you his address. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 21:38:29 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 23:16:48 -0500 Subject: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass > Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:52:08 -0800 (PST) > From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass > Sightings > Ted, > Earlier, the attempted put-downs of these Washington state mass > UFO sightings tried to attribute them to a Russian rocket > booster, SL-12 (Proton). I'm glad you also realize that it could > not have been responsible for any of the sightings. The real > point is that certain UFO debunkers had no qualms in assigning > all the UFO sightings to this SL-12 booster without waiting for > any confirmation from Russia, which of course never occurred. > Pointing out a reasonable explanation for 99 and 44/100 of the sightings is not a "put-down." It may be dull, may disappoint those who "need" it to be something more, nevertheless, it just is what it is, a reasonable explanation. Not absolutely, but most likely, the real explanation. > > In fact, the disconnected paragraphs you quote may in themselves be > > talking about two different vehicles. > The two sentences I quoted from the U.S. Space Command news > release of Nov. 29th (made available by Peter Davenport on the > National UFO Reporting Center's web site) were separated only by > the single sentence: "Aboard the booster was a spacecraft known > as the Mars '96 probe destined for the planet Mars." Thus the > second sentence I had quoted did refer to the same rocket > booster. This is where things get really weird. Another reader tipped me off that this press release was from last year. Here copied from the NUFORC site: [begin quote.] UNITED STATES SPACE COMMAND NEWS RELEASE DIRECTORATE OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS, Headquarters, U.S. Space Command, 250 S. Peterson Blvd, Ste 116, Peterson Air Force Base, CO 80914-3190 Phone: (719) 554-6889 FAX: (719) 554-3165 DSN: 692-6889 E-Mail: noussppa@spacecom.af.mil FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Release No. 41-96 November 29, 1996 Update on Russian Space Probe Peterson AFB, COLO. -- U.S. Space Command (USSPACECOM) has developed new information indicating that te Russian Mars '96 spacecraft likely came down on Nov. 16 instead of Nov. 17 as earlier reported. Any debris surviving the heat of this re-entry would have fallen over a 200-mile long portion of the Pacific Ocean, Chile, and Bolivia. We now believe that the object that re-entered on Nov. 17, which we first thought to be the Mars '96 probe, was in fact the fourth stage of the booster rocket. [end quote.] Yes indeedy, the release is dated in 1996. What is going on here? Jim, did this just slip by you and in the flush of embarrassment are you fingers busy typing out an apology to me and our fellow readers? I humbly accept. > > Now back to NORAD object 25047. After my last postings, I dove > > into the web and dredged up an orbital element set for it dated > > 13 November. Plugging this into a satellite tracking program > > revealed that on 14 November 1997 a little after 9:00 pm Seattle > > time object number 25047 was expected to be passing just north of > > Seattle and very very low in orbit. With this degree of > > corroboration, I don't see how we could fail to attribute most of > > the reports from the Northwest that night to this SL-12 booster. > You ought to read the UFO reports that Davenport made available > -- in 28 pages that include the forementioned discussion of the > Russian rocket booster launched on the 16th. Most of the reports > are of glowing objects that moved across the sky quite slowly, > and in formation, taking from 30 seconds to 11 minutes as > observed from different locations. They emphasized the slowness > (small angular velocity) of the UFOs, because by this feature > alone it was obvious, even to non-scientists, that what they saw > could not have been re-entry rocket or satellite debris or a > meteor shower, either one. Others noted non-linearity in the > UFOs' tracks. I did go to the NUFORC page and read the many reports from witnesses. Let me quote one of the better written and more descriptive of them: [begin quote.] It all started as I was commencing on my usual evening stroll. The night was one of those befitting Port Ludlow and the Olympic Peninsula. Every star was in its own multi-dimensional extragalactic setting. The moon was almost full and about 1/3 of the way to its zenith. I had just finished locating the north star and the big dipper when a brilliant orange glow started growing about 30 degrees above the north west horizon. At first there was only one orange mass with a half dozen bright spots of varying size and light intensity. The largest piece was about the size of a large star but much more brilliant and emitting a pulsating white light. The others were tracking with it making a mass in the sky that appeared larger than the moon. All the pieces appeared to be disintegrating and left a huge trail that reminded me of a contrail from a high flying jet at sunset. But this contrail was multi-colored. In between the bright spots were millions of sparkling particles spewing out colored lights that reminded be of my days in physics where we had to identify metals by their color in a flame. As a background, the contrail had a cosmic glow. [pararaph relating a second, following object snipped.] The two masses progressed across the sky, obscuring the north star and all it�s associate heavenly bodies in a very stately manner. Unlike a shooting star or the fireball that I saw in my youth, this bizarre light mass was moving slowly but steadily across the heavens. It must have taken 1 to two minutes for them to traverse from the western to the eastern horizon. As they went, the stream of off-gassing sparkling particles extended from horizon to horizon. As the leading edge of the light show neared the eastern horizon, each mass appeared to lessen in intensity. However, I sensed this was due to the higher air density. Finally the leading lights disappeared below the tree line of Tala Point while the technicolor contrail persisted for a few more moments. [end quote.] Sounds very exotic almost supernatural doesn't it? Yet this is an excellent description of a common reentry. Yes, the Shuttle as it approaches the Kennedy Space Center, does put on this glorious show. Ah, with one significant difference. The Shuttle doesn't (hopefully) break into a string of burning pieces (although it does appear to be burning.) The bulk of the eyewitness accounts on the NUFORC page were congruent with the reentry of a crumbling booster. Most of the commentary displayed, in its conjecture and speculation, gross ignorance and misconception of what a reentry would look like. > > Notice how I carefully say "most" above. I also happened to be > > listening to the Art Bell show through these events. It seemed > > to me that the witnesses may not have all been reporting the same > > event. I had the feeling that possibly three different events > > were being described. The most commonly reported event was > > clearly the reentry of space debris. > The debate then seems to be between "most" and "many." As noted > in an earlier message, the UFO events may well have occurred near > the time at which some booster suffered its final piece of > orbital decay, and that need not have been any accident in the > timing of the UFO event by the UFO intelligences. It's the > events NOT consisting of man-made or natural events that are the > concern of this list. Those viewers who assumed it was > reentering space junk seem not to have supplied any estimate of > total duration of their sighting. > Could you help out here by supplying us with your estimate of the > most typical angular velocity across the sky, as viewed from the > earth's surface, of reentering space junk when it's at its > altitude of maximal flaming brightness? Another common misconception is that the most of the flames during reentry are from the object burning up. From the time an object hits the upper atmosphere, it creates an ionization trail. It is glowing brightly long before it starts to burn up. And the trail lingers in the sky after the object has passed from sight. It glitters with fairy dust just as described above. As the debris rises above the horizon, it appears to be moving straight up as if being launched from only a couple of hundred miles away. As it passes overhead, it appears to be in level flight. And as it passes below the horizon, it appears to flying straight down. These are also characteristics reported by other witnesses. > If this altitude were taken to be 70,000 ft and if by then the > speed of the reentry debris had slowed down to 1/2 of the > previous orbital velocity, my rough estimate is that it would > take 12 seconds for it to cover a 120 degree arc of the viewers' > sky. If the factor of 1/2 were whittled down by an order of > magnitude, then some fraction of the reports that emphasized the > slow movement might be explained by reentering debris. > However, they wouldn't explain the reports which emphasized the > excessive amount of such debris that would have been required, or > the non-linear movements, or the tails of fire that followed only > far behind the leading glowing balls; or the formation maintained > by the multiple objects, considering that reentering debris of > various sizes and shapes would be moving at different velocities > due to their different aerodynamic drags. > Jim Deardorff All the estimation and speculation in the world cannot substitute for the real facts and experience. A trip to http://shuttle.nasa.gov and following the links to the reentry profile page will answer these questions far better than I can. Houston is about 3/4's along the reentry path of the shuttle. Even here, the shuttle takes 4 minutes to pass from horizon to horizon. This is much, much longer than your preliminary estimates. It looks every bit as magical as the witness's reports on the NUFORC pages. This makes it easy to understand how popular misconceptions can sensationalize a common reentry. The many ways that a booster can break up and the many aerodynamic forces affecting the varied pieces can easily explain the various fireballs and their paths. Sadly, several of the postings on the NUFORC page clearly described the how's and why's of this being an SL-12 reentry. Yet this did nothing to stem the mystification and glamorization of the event. Bye... Ted..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 7 Re: From The "XX Files": The "Real" Truth... From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates] Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 23:18:56 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 23:40:42 -0500 Subject: Re: From The "XX Files": The "Real" Truth... > From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 13:05:13 +0200 > Subject: From The "XX Files": The "Real" Truth About "Aliens" In The= U.S.A. > Found at: > http://www.latinolink.com/opinion/opinion97/0628OSPE.HTM > From the "XX Files": The "Real" Truth about "Aliens" in the U.S.A. > By Roberto Rodriguez & Patrisia Gonzales > =A91997 Chronicle Features > They lied to us about Roswell. Of course. They also lied to us about > the Mexican-American War and Columbus. So what haven't they lied to us > about? > Roswell, New Mexico, has captured the imagination of the world and yet, > few people seem to know the real story behind the world's most famous > purported UFO incident. In July of 1947, the Air Force reported that it > had captured the remains of a UFO, only to retract the story the > following day, claiming what it had found was in fact only a weather > balloon. > Curiously, in all the current media mania over the 50th anniversary of > the "Roswell Incident," the name of Lincoln LaPaz, an expert in > meteoritics and a key figure in the government investigation, appears > nowhere. > LaPaz was a University of New Mexico professor at the time, who had > earlier been part of the ultra-secret Manhattan Project which developed > the world's first atomic weapon. When the government began to > investigate the purported UFO crash, and a second nearby crash site > where alien bodies were allegedly recovered, agents found that most of > the nearby residents spoke primarily Spanish. Because of the > English-only laws for military personnel back then, the government > found itself with a communication problem. As documented in the 1991 > book "UFO Crash at Roswell," the government enlisted the services of > LaPaz to interview the residents. LaPaz scoured the countryside, > visiting homes, farms, and even bars. It is through his interviews that > the trajectory of the UFO was determined. > According to heavily censored government documents given to us by a > former intelligence agent, code-named "XX" (or "Dos Equis"), whom we > met at one of the bars that LaPaz visited, scores of ranch hands in the > area also stumbled onto the bodies of three or four aliens. The > laborers left hastily to other parts of the country, afraid that the > government would make them "disappear" because of what they had seen. Boy oh Boy, we meet an self proclaimed intelligence agent in some local bar in the outback of New Mexico and this story is end all information about the coverup of the century. Lets see where have we heard that before: Lee Shargel and the Jan 24th 1997 was when ET radio waves were going to bathe the earth and that would begin a new day for humanity...according to his never- wrong-top-drawer-intelligence sources. Then we had beltway throat who unloaded the Yellowbook/10,000 year history of the earth/Christ was an ET/mass landings in the desert SW on April 24th 1997. Never happened. Today, the alleged coverup of the century supposedly comes from some intelligence source whom the authors met in some backwoods NM bar. My question is how many beers had "XX" had before he spilled his guts...whoops!, I mean't told his story. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 8 Windchaser Films Site has UFO Video Stills From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 00:00:43 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 00:00:43 -0500 Subject: Windchaser Films Site has UFO Video Stills The following arrived here last week. As the site name sugggests, these people chase winds - tornados. In the course of one of their chases they caught a metallic object on video. The images are interesting and worth visiting. ebk ______________________________________ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:02:03 -0600 To: everyone@windchaser.com From: Chaser <chaser@telepath.com> Subject: A special mission. from Lan Lamphere We have set up a BBS that caters to the skeptic and the believer in these unexplained events. Naturally this is not the first board of its kind, but it is the first time that a domain has introduced the UFologolist to the public in a positive light. We believe that the world is ready to learn more about these strange and unexplained events that have been occurring for thousands of years. It's time to unite the public in a fight against the lies and the cover ups that have been inflected on those of us that "know" for so long now. This board is a starting place, a cornner stone, for such an organization. Together with the combined talents of you, and the other hundreds of researchers world wide, we can all make a difference via the world wide web and services available throughout the world. Unity in mind, spirit and body. That is the premise behind this group of people. I would like to invite you to join this group, bringing with you all of the folks that you consider to be the top in their fields. The more scientific research behind this goal of ours the better. To show the rest of the world that we are not alone in this universe. To show our governments that we are not fools that can be lead into the slaughter without a fight. The only way that we will ever gain our own voice is to unite in this effort. To use our talents and our minds. Buy putting away our own petty differences, we will learn the truth. Our governments have counted on the lack of organization for many years to debunk the claims of the truth. That time has come to an end. I encourage you to join this effort that will soon go world wide with your help. Each of you providing research, and the input to future discussions. Together we will enlighten and educate the the world as to the importance of this mission, and to the importance of knowing we're not alone. I look forward to hearing from all of you in the very near future. Peace & Coolness Lan Lamphere Windchaser Films/Research groups. You can find the UFOsRUS Open Forum at the address listed below. Please be sure to bookmark it for easy access in the future. http://www.windchaser.com/chat/boards/ufosrus http://www.windchaser.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ _______________________________________________________________________ Web~Master@Windchaser.com Phone {405}-447-4681 email: webmaster@windchaser.com Please visit our award winning web site at http://www.windchaser.com Stop by and leave a message, learn something new or just visit at the Windchaser Online chat boards. http://www.windchaser.com/chat UFOsRUSb Open Forum http://www.windchaser.com/chat/boards/ufosrus Stop by The Dark Room. One of the chat boards (BBS) at our site. http://www.windchaser.com/chat/boards/hamshack Visit the LIVE CHAT ROOM at http://www.windchaser.com/chat/rooms/kaffehaus Sister sight to http://www.windchaser.com/chat/boards/kaffehaus
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 8 More re-entry material? From: werd@interlog.com Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:24:16 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 00:56:47 -0500 Subject: More re-entry material? List members, This article seems to be a reminder that UFOs aren't only seen in the west. There seems to be an obvious connection with the objects seen in the Pacific Northwest, at least as far as the time period is concerned. Drew Williamson _____________________________________ SOURCE: Toronto Globe and Mail - p.D4 DATE: November 15, 1997 SECTION: The Local Story Brunei Darussalam: Unidentified flying objects over Brunei? That's what some people claim to have seen in the night sky over Kilanas. Among them are Chan Rasjid and a colleague who saw mysterious lights as he drove along Jalan Tutong Thar high street. The lights, he says, were moving in a clockwise direction, closing in together and then separating out, circling over an area covering about 30 to 45 degrees left and right of the vertical in a large area of the sky. -Borneo Bulletin www.brunet.bn
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 8 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:53:00 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 15:30:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony >Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:40:51 -0500 >From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Jim. You have asked us (everyone) to evaluate your pelican "theory" and to demonstrate why it won't work. However, you have not really given us a theory, on what I call a "candidate explanatory phenomenon," in this case, the fligt of pelicans. Unfortunately you are making the cardinal error of the skeptics who propose explanations based on similarities of some of the characteristics of these candidate explanations with the caracteristics of the observed phenomenon . The error is to simply propose the phenomenon without demonstrating why it satisfies all the reported characteristics in a uniform manner. However, I think thatafter all this argumentation you could perhaps attempt that. IT would be a complete "dynamical theory" which explains why Arnold would THINK was seeing shiny, (metal-like) objects tilting back an forth and flying past his line of view at a high speed and at a distance of 20-25 miles. I won't recite the details. You know them, and once you have formulated your complete theory we will check DEDUCTIONS from the theory against the observations. You have asked us to evaluate Pelicans. You have not said at what alttude or what speed they were flying, Nor have you proposed an actual track for the pelicans relative to Arnold's plane. You have obviously agreed that the track passes between the plane and Mt. Rainier and that's about it. You have complained that Arnold might have been in error by as much as 4000 ft in estimating the height. This, of course, applies only if the objects were 20 miles away(although you don't seem to understand this.) OK. Then propose a height. If you don't feel yourself capable presenting a complete theory then we will work one out for you. But it has to have a begining and an end in terms of the of th observations. It cannot simply be.."Arnold saw pelicans flyin by; prove he didn't." Your job as explainer is to prove he did. After all, a UFO can do "anything" but a candidate explanatory phenomenon (CEP) can only do things allowed by physics, chemistry, biology, etc. For example, if your theory requires pelicans to fly at 9000 ft at 50 mph you've got to be able to show that pelicans can fly that fast at that height. We can all find maps. Pick a location for Arnold's plane near Mineral Washington at the beginning of the sighting. Draw a vector of his path (he had been flying toward his destination for a minute or two, he said). Draw a crossing track of pelicans. Tell us the altitude of the pelicans (assume Arnold at 9200 ft), tell us the azimuth of the track of the pelicans, tell us their speed along the track. TELL US THE DISTANCE OF THE CLOSEST APPROACH OF TH PELICANS TO ARNOLD's PLANE (presumably the point where they crossed his eastward track, but you might have some other idea). Remember that sighting lines have to aling reasonably with known "reporting points" such as Mt. Baker, Mt. Rainier and Mt. Adams. Once you have this complete map showing the location of th plane and pelicans at the begining and end of the sighting, and allowing for Arnold to turn his plane about 90 degrees ("sideways" to his original track),then tell us how to make similar maps or upload a GIF mage or something. Then you will have a complete theory that everyone can test against Arniold's report. We may find that your theory fits some things and no others. Perhaps you can provide logical convincing arguments that every aspect which does NOT fit your theory can be ingnored. If you succeed then we will have to admit that the pelican theory could explain the sighting. Perhaps you can go even farther and PROVE he saw pelicans. Or, perhaps your pelicans will sink along with the mirages, meteors, orographic clouds, billowing blasts of snow, motes in the eye, reflections from the windshield, water drops on the windshield..hallucinations.....and on... and on...... SO, GO FOR IT!!!!! And I suggest everyone else keep quiet until James either comes up with a complete theory (the scientific thing do) or admits that he can't. BRUCE
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 8 Hollywood 'Aliens' Divide Experts at Acapulco From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:11:40 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 15:34:02 -0500 Subject: Hollywood 'Aliens' Divide Experts at Acapulco Found at http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/971207/entertainment/stories/mexic0_ufomo vies_1.html Sunday December 7 11:18 AM EST Aliens from Hollywood divide UFO experts By Dan Trotta ACAPULCO, Mexico (Reuters) - Most of the UFOs and extraterrestrials sighted lately on earth have not come from far-away galaxies but from Hollywood studios, raising a serious dilemma for professional UFO investigators. Some experts attending the Second World UFO Congress in Acapulco this weekend argue that popular science-fiction films are welcome publicity for their cause. But others say the string of hit movies, like last summer's "Men in Black" and "Contact," and television shows like "The X Files," should be scorned for reinforcing stereotypes and giving UFO debunkers more ammunition. "Of course, everything helps, including parodies like 'Men in Black,"' said Jaime Maussan, Mexico's top "ufologist" and organizer of the congress. "It suggests to the masses that there really was a group called Men in Black that was connected to military intelligence," he told Reuters. Even "Independence Day," the 1996 blockbuster about aliens bent on invading Earth and enslaving humans, helped to raise the number of people who say they believe in UFOs and that governments are covering up proof of their existence, he said. The movie took advantage of the core beliefs of many UFO proponents: that in 1947 an alien spacecraft crashed near Roswell, New Mexico, and their bodies were recovered by the U.S. military and kept in the so-called Area 51 of a nearby base. "It speaks to us about Roswell, about Area 51, that there were aliens recovered and that the president of the United States is not always informed," Maussan said. "All of this conditions human beings more and more to believe it is true." Nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman called "Independence Day" "a hoot" that he enjoyed for its special effects. He said nobody who went to see the film thought it was a documentary. But others at the conference lambasted "Independence Day" as practically sacrilegious for exploiting the Roswell story. Budd Hopkins, a leading investigator of supposed alien abductions of earthlings, called it "a terrible movie." Robert Dean, a former soldier who claims to have seen "Cosmic Top Secret" NATO documents proving that many UFOs were actually alien space ships, said he preferred more sober classics like "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" and "The Day the Earth Stood Still." "I found 'Independence Day' distracting because it is typical Hollywood," Dean said. Dean said he and other UFO investigators have been working with producers, directors and writers in Hollywood to "tell the true story" about foreign visitors. "The true story is much more incredible than any horror movie you could make," he said. Copyright =A9 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 8 Strieber On Stein's Internet Audio Talk Show From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:23:35 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 15:35:22 -0500 Subject: Strieber On Stein's Internet Audio Talk Show Forwarded from "alt.paranet.ufo": 7. December 1997 04.05.29 alt.paranet.ufo Item From: 76704.241@CompuServe.COM,usenet Subject: FYI:UFO Abduction Expert LIVE 12/18 To: alt.paranet.ufo Thursday, December 18, 1997 7:00-8:00 p.m. EST GUEST: Whitley Strieber TOPIC: UFO Abductions. Strieber is the leading researcher and speaker worldwide on UFO abductions. A Major Daily LIVE AUDIO Internet Talk/Interview Show Monday through Friday--7:00-9:00 p.m. EST. Free to all Internet users at: www.compuserve.com/cir and hosted by Audionet at: www.audionet.com/shows/stein Listeners can talk to the guests at 1-888-TALK-101 STEIN ONLINE -- Stein Online Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 21:05:29 -0500 From: STEIN ONLINE <76704.241@CompuServe.COM> Subject: FYI:UFO Abduction Expert LIVE 12/18 Message-ID: <u5wlYSrA9GA.321@nih2naab.prod2.compuserve.com> Search for other documents from or mentioning: stig_agermose |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 8 Abductions Discussed At Acapulco Conference From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:03:28 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 15:32:21 -0500 Subject: Abductions Discussed At Acapulco Conference Found at the site of Fox News. URL: http://www.foxnews.com/news/wires2/n_1207_58.sml Extraterrestrials Discussed at UFO Conference 3.40 p.m. EST (2040 GMT) December 7, 1997 ACAPULCO, Mexico =97 Extraterrestrials are secretly abducting humans for use in hybrid breeding experiments and inserting implants into their bodies, UFO experts said Sunday at the Second World UFO Congress. Of all the claims about alien visits to Earth, stories about abductions are perhaps the most controversial both for their astonishing nature and the passion with which believers profess them to be true. The notion that humans are routinely abducted in their sleep, taken off to alien space craft and then returned silently to their beds carried a high level of acceptance among experts from eight countries attending the meeting. Most victims cannot remember details of their abductions until they were brought out of them under hypnosis, presumably because the aliens tried to wipe out their memories before returning them home, they said. "We need more involvement from people in the fields of science to study this," said Jaime Rodriguez, Ecuador's top UFO investigator and host of a television show on UFOs. "But they have to come with an open mind or they will continue ridiculing the phenomenon," he told Reuters. In some cases, women are impregnated, carry the hybrid fetus through a short gestation, and then abducted again to give birth, Budd Hopkins, billed as "a pioneer in the genre" of investigating alien abductions, told the meeting. The kidnapping aliens take two forms. Cases in the U.S. involve short extraterrestrials with white skin, big eyes and large bald heads shaped like an inverted pear, Hopkins said. In Ecuador, they are taller with round heads and olive green skin, Rodriguez said. In both cases the aliens are implanting devices into the brains, earlobes or other parts of the human victims. Hopkins theorized they could be for tracking or controlling humans, or perhaps they allow aliens to see through their victims' eyes. Hopkins detailed the 1989 case of Linda Cortile, a woman in New York who claims to have been kidnapped one night. Hopkins said several witnesses came forward to report that they saw Hopkins and several aliens float out of her 12th floor window and into a flying saucer. But he is not sure if the alien intentions are harmful. "There are not good aliens and bad aliens," Hopkins said. "This is not a cowboy movie. This is the real world." =A9 Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved =A9 FOX News Network 1997. All rights reserved. comments@foxnews.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 8 1st World UFO Forum in Brasilia, Brazil From: Pedro Cunha <pplfilho@nutecnet.com.br> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 13:38:57 -0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 15:38:08 -0500 Subject: 1st World UFO Forum in Brasilia, Brazil UFO FORUM in BRASILIA, BRAZIL Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:53:57 -0200 From: Pedro Cunha Subject: OVNI BRASIL: UFO FORUM in BRASILIA, BRAZIL LISTA OVNI BRASIL Mensagem recebida de Pedro Cunha <pplfilho@nutecnet.com.br> First World UFO Forum BRASILIA - BRAZIL - DECEMBER 1997 Brazilian researchers organize the biggest UFO conference ever The First World UFO Forum by A. J. Gevaerd, from Brazilian UFO Magazine From December 7th to 14th Brazil's federal capital Brasilia will host the biggest UFO conference ever promoted in the world until now. A coalition of six Brazilian UFO researchers have been contracted by a large non governmental organization called Legiao da Boa Vontade to organize the Conference and invite as many international speakers as possible. Up to now, the list of invited comprises 52 top UFO researchers from all over the world and over 30 Brazilian lecturers as well. The coalition of researchers contracted to host the conference is comprised of Claudeir Covo, from the National Institute of Aerospace Phenomena Investigations (INFA); Rafael Cury, from the UFO Research Nucleus (NPU); Reginaldo de Athayde, from Ufological Research Center (CPU); Marco Antonio Petit, from Fluminense UFO Research Association (AFEU); and Ubirajara Rodrigues and A. J. Gevaerd, both from the Brazilian Center for Flying saucer Research (CBPDV), the biggest UFO group in the country. The conference to be held in 8 days (from 8 a.m. to 11 p.m. daily) has been called First World UFO Forum and its main objective is to promote a summit of the biggest and most prominent UFO researchers from all parts of the planet. These people will be asked to prepare a comprehensive document covering most aspects of UFO visitations and alien contacts to be given to the main authorities from several countries, some of them will be present at the Forum. Brasilia has been chosen to host the Forum because it is regarded as the central city in Brazil for discussion of the UFO phenomena. Many Brazilian and other South American civilian and military representatives will be invited to attend the discussions. Representatives from other non governmental organizations, scientific community and associations are also in the list of invited parties. Brazilians are definitely trying to organize the biggest UFO event ever and the only publication in the country --- the Brazilian UFO Magazine --- is devoted to promote the Forum as extensively as possible. The list of speakers that will present: Ademar Eugenio de Mello (Brazil) Ademar Jose Gevaerd (Brazil) Alberto Romero (Brazil) Alejandro Agostinelli (Argentina) Aldo Novak (Brazil) Alonso Valdi Regis (Brazil) Ana Santos (Brazil) Antonio Faleiro (Brazil) Barry Chamish (Israel) Basilio Baranoff (Brazil) Bill Hamilton (USA) Bob Brown (USA) Boris Chourinov (Russia) Budd Hopkins (USA) Cesar Vanucci (Brazil) Chica Granchi (Brazil) Claudeir Covo (Brazil) Claudio Pamplona (Brazil) Colin Andrews ( England) Cynthia Hind (Zimbabwe) Daryosh Bagheri (Iran) David Jacobs (USA) Derrel Sims (USA) Donald Ware (USA) Emanoel Paranhos (Brazil) Eustaquio A. Patounas (Brazil) G. C. Schellhorn (USA) G=E1bor Tarcali (Hungary) Gildas Bordaux (France) Giorgio Bongiovanni (Italy) Glennys Mackay (Australia) Graham Birdsall (England) Guenady Strekalov (Russia) Hernan Mostajo (Brazil) Jaime Maussan ( Mexico) Jaime Rodriguez (Ecuador) James Hurtak (USA) Javier Sierra (Spain) Jerome Clark (USA) Jesse Marcel Junior (USA) Joaquim Fernandes (Portugal) John Carpenter (USA) John Mack (USA) Jorge Alfonso Ramirez (Paraguay) Jorge Martin (Puerto Rico) Jose Luiz Lanhoso Martins (Brazil) Leonard Sprinkle (USA) Luciano Stancka e Silva (Brazil) Manoel Gilson Mitoso (Brazil) Marco Antonio Petit (Brazil) Mario Dussuel Jurado (Chile) Mark Carlotto (USA) Maurizio Baiata (Italy) Michael Hesemann (Germany) Michael Lindemann (USA) Pablo Vilarubia (Spain) Pedro Cunha (Brazil) Per Andersen (Denmark) Peter Davenport (USA) Rafael Cury (Brazil) Reginaldo Athayde (Brazil) Ricardo Varela Correa (Brazil) Robert Dean (USA) Robert Banchs (Argentina) Roberto Affonso Beck (Brazil) Roberto Pinotti (Italy) Rodrigo Fuenzalida (Chile) Roger Leir (USA) Romio Cury (Brazil) Ryszard Fiejtek (Polish) Stanto Friedman (Canada) Sun-Shi Li (China) Timo Koskeniemmi (Finland) Ubirajara F. Rodrigues (Brazil) Walter H. Andrus (USA) Wendelle Stevens (USA) Wilson Geraldo Oliveira (Brazil) Yvonne Smith (USA) Special Guests: Almiro Barauna (Brazil) Antonio Nelso Tasca (Brazil) Elias Seixo (Brazil) Geraldo Simoes Bichara (Brazil) Gerson Maciel de Britto (Brazil) Haroldo Westerndorff (Brazil) Jose Victor Soares (Brazil) Liliane Fatima da Silva (Brazil) Luiza Helena da Silva (Brazil) Valquiria A. Da Silva (Brazil) According to the organization committee of the First World UFO Forum, each international and domestic speaker invited will be asked to lecture for no longer than 1 hour on an specific subject within each one's specialty, in order to cover most aspects of Modern Ufology from A to Z. The Forum will include roundtables and a series of activities to better the UFO discussion at a high level. It is expected that a few personalities from the UFO-related show biz will be invited too. At least on one entire night the Brazilian UFO researchers will present a complete, in-depth and updated description of the Varginha Case to the international lecturers and the audiences. The Case is believed to be one of the most extensively researched events involving the crash of a spacecraft, happened on January 20, 1996. Up to now it is known that at least 2 alien creatures were capture by the Brazilian Army together with the Fire Department of Varginha in this incident. It is expected that 1.5 to 2.5 thousand people will attend the First World UFO Forum, which will be entirely promoted in the several amphitheaters of the Legiao da Boa Vontade in Brasilia. All people interested in participating in the conference are invited to write to the address bellow to request further information. A. J. Gevaerd, international coordinator First World UFO Forum C/o Brazilian UFO Magazine P. O. Box 2182, CEP 79008-970 Campo Grande (MS) Brazil Phone: +55 (67) 724-6700 Fax: +55 (67) 724-6707 gevaerd@alanet.com.br Also +55-61-345-0050 LBV In Brasilia ******************* OVNIBR-L ************************ This message reflects the idea of its original author ***************************************************** OVNIs: RECONHECIMENTO OFICIAL JA! UFOs : OFFICIAL ACKNOWLEDGEMENT NOW! VISIT: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1349 To subscribe send message to: majordomo@listbox.com and write in the message: subscribe OVNIBR-L Majordomo Version 1.93 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D cut here =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -- Pedro Cunha ------------------------------------ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1349 ------------------------------------ -- Pedro Cunha ------------------------------------ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1349 ------------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 8 Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 05:16:43 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 15:51:39 -0500 Subject: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass > Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 21:38:29 -0800 > From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass > Sightings > > Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:52:08 -0800 (PST) > > From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass > > Sightings > > Ted, > > Earlier, the attempted put-downs of these Washington state mass > > UFO sightings tried to attribute them to a Russian rocket > > booster, SL-12 (Proton). I'm glad you also realize that it could > > not have been responsible for any of the sightings. The real > > point is that certain UFO debunkers had no qualms in assigning > > all the UFO sightings to this SL-12 booster without waiting for > > any confirmation from Russia, which of course never occurred. > Pointing out a reasonable explanation for 99 and 44/100 of the > sightings is not a "put-down." Ted, Leave out the 99 and you may be much closer to the truth. > > The two sentences I quoted from the U.S. Space Command news > > release of Nov. 29th (made available by Peter Davenport on the > > National UFO Reporting > > Center's web site) were separated only by the single sentence: ... > This is where things get really weird. Another reader tipped me > off that this press release was from last year. Here copied from > the NUFORC site: > [begin quote.] > UNITED STATES SPACE COMMAND > NEWS RELEASE > [...] > Release No. 41-96 > November 29, 1996 > Update on Russian Space Probe > [... Etc.] I very much thank this "another reader" for looking more carefully at the heading. > Yes indeedy, the release is dated in 1996. What is going on > here? Jim, did this just slip by you and in the flush of > embarrassment are you fingers busy typing out an apology to me > and our fellow readers? I humbly accept. It apparently slipped past Peter and evidently many others, and you the first time through, and me also. We all, plus any future readers who may miss seeing the 96 date, extend to others on the list our deepest, most humble apologies. The '96 date shows up in 9 other spots (in other forms) in that news release, so we have no excuse. > I did go to the NUFORC page and read the many reports from > witnesses. Let me quote one of the better written and more > descriptive of them: > [begin quote: ....] > ... I had just finished locating the north > star and the big dipper when a brilliant orange glow started > growing about 30 degrees above the north west horizon. At first > there was only one orange mass with a half dozen bright spots of > varying size and light intensity. The largest piece was about > the size of a large star but much more brilliant and emitting a > pulsating white light. The others were tracking with it making a > mass in the sky that appeared larger than the moon. All the > pieces appeared to be disintegrating and left a huge trail that > reminded me of a contrail from a high flying jet at sunset. But > this contrail was multi-colored. In between the bright spots > were millions of sparkling particles spewing out colored lights > that reminded be of my days in physics where we had to identify > metals by their color in a flame. As a background, the contrail > had a cosmic glow. > [pararaph relating a second, following object snipped.] > The two masses progressed across the sky, obscuring the north > star and all it�s associate heavenly bodies in a very stately > manner. Unlike a shooting star or the fireball that I saw in my > youth, this bizarre light mass was moving slowly but steadily > across the heavens. It must have taken 1 to two minutes for them > to traverse from the western to the eastern horizon. As they > went, the stream of off-gassing sparkling particles extended from > horizon to horizon. As the leading edge of the light show > neared the eastern horizon, each mass appeared to lessen in > intensity. However, I sensed this was due to the higher air > density. Finally the leading lights disappeared below the tree > line of Tala Point while the technicolor contrail persisted for a > few more moments. > [end quote.] That was the report from near the Hoods Canal region. > Sounds very exotic almost supernatural doesn't it? Yet this is > an excellent description of a common reentry. [...] That might indeed be the man-made event that allowed the UFO guys to add their show to it and get away with it, knowing that skeptics would then have a way out and so not be forced to believe anything they couldn't accept. > The bulk of the > eyewitness accounts on the NUFORC page were congruent with the > reentry of a crumbling booster. Most of the commentary > displayed, in its conjecture and speculation, gross ignorance and > misconception of what a reentry would look like. So here's where we disagree. You're dismissing most all the UFO reports that occurred near the same time and same general area because they had many features that don't jibe with the way space-debris reentry should behave. (Notice I said "most" here.) One report was of 12 to 15 spherical orbs -- glowing balls with tails of fire, maintaining formation, whereas broken up debris, low enough to have tails of fire caused by aerodynamic frictional heating, would be composed of pieces of widely different masses and surface area and be subject to widely different aerodynamic drags, causing them to progress at different rates, not maintaining any formation. So this one is Unidentified as any space-debris. Another report was of 8 bright lights flying in a V-shaped formation. Very similar and thus also Unidentified. The description that it looked like "an oceangoing cruise ship" also indicates the lights maintained the same positions relative to each other, not deviating in speed or direction. So it is also Unidentified. I believe the report of the 12 balls in a tight group also indicates a formation type of flight, and the observation that they were so low that their house was illuminated by them also is incompatible with space debris. The report of the spheres of light momentarily descending and slowing down, when shimmering gold & silver lights were seen inside of them, is also incompatible. If reentering space debris were to glow like spheres, they wouldn't show fore-to-aft symmetry in color variations when viewed from the side. When the spheres were seen to take a right turn, this also puts them in the Unidentified category. In the summary of the Art Bell show callers, the report by the witness of the triangle-shaped object is also in the Unidentified category, as were the others indicating a formation flight. The Wenatchee trio saw the objects pass between them and the hills, and "BELOW the mountain top, IN THE VALLEY." This report is also in the Unidentified category, as other reports of the lights came from farther east -- Moses Lake and Spokane. The witnesses along the Washington shore who reported the large lights flew in a "symmetrical V-shaped formation," with one zipping all around the others, obviously saw UFOs, not reentering space debris. The three dozen other callers who reported a symmetrical V-shaped formation were also not reporting any reentering space debris. The witnesses alluded to by Dale Goudie reported that the large bright objects moved in non-linear fashion -- also not indicative of space debris. The reports that could be consistent with space-debris reentry were in the minority. > > Could you help out here by supplying us with your estimate of the > > most typical angular velocity across the sky, as viewed from the > > earth's surface, of reentering space junk when it's at its > > altitude of maximal flaming brightness? > Another common misconception is that the most of the flames > during reentry are from the object burning up. From the time an > object hits the upper atmosphere, it creates an ionization trail. > It is glowing brightly long before it starts to burn up. [...] In the report you quoted, however, which may or may not have been actual space debris reentering, the pieces appeared to be disintegrating. This is well past any initial ionization stage. > > If this altitude were taken to be 70,000 ft and if by then the > > speed of the reentry debris had slowed down to 1/2 of the > > previous orbital velocity, my rough estimate is that it would > > take 12 seconds for it to cover a 120 degree arc of the viewers' > > sky. If the factor of 1/2 were whittled down by an order of > > magnitude, then some fraction of the reports that emphasized the > > slow movement might be explained by reentering debris. [...] > All the estimation and speculation in the world cannot substitute > for the real facts and experience. A trip to > http://shuttle.nasa.gov and following the links to the reentry > profile page will answer these questions far better than I can. But if you think the bulk of the observations were made while the objects were in an ionizing stage, long before they began to burn up, can you not supply us with a ball park estimate of what you think their altitude was and their speed relative to orbital velocity? I should think that if such displays are characteristic of decaying debris while still far above where any burning up occurs, the show would persist for several orbits and furthermore be occurring from scores of the thousands of objects presently in decaying orbits. One doesn't see any such thing on a clear night. But if we both agree that a real object reentered and was viewed by few or some or many, and UFOs also were viewed by many at about the same time, then there isn't much left for us to debate on this incident. You have to hand it to those UFO guys -- how easily they can stay several jumps ahead of scientific human minds. Jim Deardorff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 8 Re: UFO tracking predictions From: JJ <fierycelt@full-moon.com> [Jennifer Jarvis] Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 10:00:33 +1030 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 20:10:53 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO tracking predictions >Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 13:25:53 -0600 (CST) >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: UFO tracking predictions >On Sat 6 Dec 1997 Joel Henry wrote in response to >comments from Jennifer Jarvis ... >>Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 14:16:22 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Database interest >>>Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 20:23:06 +1030 >>>From: JJ <fierycelt@full-moon.com> [Jennifer Jarvis] >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Database interest >> [snip] >>>I know of a gentleman in England who has researched UFO sightings >>>dating back to the late 19th Century. >>What's his name (e-mail address)? I'd like to get ahold of him. >>He could be a real beneficial contributor. <snip> >>>I have also had feedback from other people around the world to >>>whom I have sent specially generated customized charts and graphs >>>for their specific areas. Here again, the dates and times >>>predicted have been VERY accurate. >>Is there a website one can easily access to get access to this >>type of data/analysis? It's all very well and good to be able >>to do it but not of much use if it is not widely shared (the >>goal of the new database). >>>Of course, how we use such information is left to our >>>"consciences," and, maybe, certain people and agencies may use >>>said information for the "wrong reasons." <snip> >>Being able to predict where and when they will show up is extremely >>importanat and I'll bet hundreds of investigator would love to >>access this info. >> [snip] >>If you or the gentlman you mentioned earlier would be interested >>in contributing to this effort, it would be much appreciated. >>Interest so far is very high. >>Joel, >Jennifer was kind enough to have the gentleman in question mail >me one of his sample charts last year. The material (a computer >generated chart for my latitude/longitude), and a page of usage >instructions, are fascinating. Though I must admit that holding >down a fulltime job, authoring and supporting a commercial >astronomical database package, and trying to maintain a residual >social and personal life have prevented me from doing much with >his material to date. If you like, I could scan in the 2 pages >and mail them to you, just to show you what he has. Let me know. >I also have some (somewhere on diskette) old email correspondence >from Jennifer that gives more detail on the rationale behind all >this, but I guess I'd prefer that you talk to the source for that. >Anyway, the gentleman's name is T. Roy Dutton. Neither the >envelope he sent from England nor the enclosed material provides >any info at all on how to contact him; no mail address, email >address, phone number, notta. >Jennifer however has all this info and should be able to provide >it to you if she sees fit. >-Brian Cuthbertson< Hello Brian, and thank you for you input! As you mentioned above, T. Roy Dutton is NOT digitally connected to the outside world as others of us are. His work has been presented to various UFO research groups in the United Kingdom, and has received good response. However, the "scientific community," if that be the correct term, has not shown too much interest. I am, at present, working on a website wherein we could place T. R. Dutton's theories and findings. Maybe then, anyone interested in his work could access this information, and investigate the possibility of having customized prediction charts generated for a specific research area. He produced an explanatory video back in 1994. This past summer he was putting another video together (filmed in his own home), and this, I believe, delves into the Crop Circle aspect of his research. As I mentioned in my previous posting, we can only hope that this information will be used for "good" purposes. Very best wishes. Jennifer
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 8 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 12:15:53 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 20:15:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 19:02:30 -0700 > From: "Clarke Hathaway <earthwrk@doitnow.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > > Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 02:51:30 -0500 > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > > >From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com> > > >Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:42:46 EST > > >To: updates@globalserve.net > > >Subject: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > > >John Velez wrote: ---snippety snip, snip--- > I have an effective modality of dealing with these visitations. I > really don't give a flying fig for any negative commentary by > would be detractors. I have something that works and I have > ceased to play the role of victim. If anyone out there can make > the same claim, then I congratulate them! > Clarke Hathaway I am driven uncontrollably to sing the praises of Paul and Clarke. They are to be honored for the fruits of their life-long studies. Their years of effort and discovery have yeilded unto them such an exacting perception of reality that it must be more than shared with us lesser mortals. Poor delusional John Velez. Throuhout his shallow life, he has only managed to craft the most rudimentary of reality models. And he is so lacking in wisdom, he fails to realize that it is only a poorly informed model. But, John should fear no more. Paul and Clarke have shown their limitless mercy in revealing to John the truth of his life experiences derived from their grasp of the very core of reality itself. So profound is their knowledge, they can step far past merely suggesting another interpretation of John's events to strongly declaring the Truth of John's life... I am humbled, really... I, of course, possess another poorly informed model portraying the reality that we share. My studies pale when measured against the eclectic and arduous works accomplished by Paul and Clarke. Certainly, I could suggest to misguided John alternative explanations for his experiences. Those experiences that Paul and Clarke can understand so completely and deeply from a handful of missives on an electronic forum. I could, in lengthy essays, go further and INSIST that these events in John's life were truly explain by my inspired grasp of REALITY. I could insist. I could declare. No doubt, my poorly informed model of reality would only evoke cries of "Sophistry!" from the more learned among us. I would soon learn the folly in declaring what can only be suggested. Perhaps I would garnish enough wisdom from this error to grow slightly from this experience. I would be humbled again. I am so envious of Paul and Clarke. The depths of their wisdom, and the breadths of their vision empower them to declare the true nature of poor John Velez's experiences. Such learned men are immune from the rabbled protestations of "Sophistry!" Bye... Ted..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 8 New Additions to the Project 1947 Website From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 13:13:28 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 20:35:18 -0500 Subject: New Additions to the Project 1947 Website John Stepkowski, the Project 1947 webmaster, has made some new additions to the PROJECT 1947 web site at: http://www.iufog.org/project1947/ ------------------------------- One of the best known ground trace cases is the 1966 Tully "saucer nest" found in Queensland, Australia. Bill Chalker examines the case in detail with the help of official documents, news accounts and an interview with the primary witness in The 1966 Tully Saucer "Nest" - A Classic UFO Physical Trace Case" ------------------------------- British UFO researcher and author Paul Fuller has compiled some interesting ground trace cases from Ted Phillips' Physical Trace Catalogue: http://www/iufog.org/project1947/phillips.htm ------------------------------- The shape and performance characteristics of UFOs can take many forms. In "Close Encounters with Unknown Missiles," respected Swedish researchers Clas Svahn and Anders Liljegren of the Archives for UFO research (AFU), document some mysterious and possibly fatal incidents between aircraft and unidentified missile-like objects. Includes update on one-time UFO now an IFO. (See the Olympic Airlines 727 Incident over the Swiss-Italian border.) http://www.iufog.org/project1947/afumiss.htm ------------------------------- The PROJECT 1947 Notice Board has several new entries. http://www.iufog.org/project1947/47notice.htm To aid PROJECT 1947 members in their current research efforts, this publically accessible 'Notice Board' contains details of requests for information. Research is a gift economy. The more we contribute the more we all get back. Please check the 'Notice Board' regularly and contact the researchers listed if you can help. ------------------------------- Thank you. -- Jan Aldrich Project 1947 http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 8 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: "George Fergus" <fergus@mail.ccrl.mot.com> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:28:30 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 20:37:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 14:09:01 -0800 > From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony Ted Viens wrote to James Easton: > Stepping back from this diversion into facile trigonometry, I am > still saying that, as the principle proponent of the significant > theory generating this thread, you are not responsibly doing your > homework. You have several accounts of what happened from Arnold > himself, yet you apparently haven't attempted to synthesize a > best-fit time and position chart over a reasonably detailed map > of what might have really happened. I am sure that Bruce and > others here would love to collaborate with you in doing this, > sharing what they have already done and debating the accuracy of > Arnold's estimated distances and bearings. This would be > valuable to many here interested in this issue. > You are also oversimplifying your discussion of the relative > position of the plane and objects. From a fixed observer nearby > small objects moving slowly and distant large objects moving > quickly would have the same angular dimensions and sweep through > the same bearings and make it impossible for the observer to tell > them apart. This is a false model for what happened. The > observer is also in motion. If Arnold did see the objects with a > large aspect ratio and they were big birds, he would be so close > to them that in a couple of minutes they would have gone from way > ahead of him to way behind him even if they were flying in the > same direction. This is the one unavoidable characteristic > necessary for them to be birds that is not reported. Here is my attempt to make a time and position chart for the Pelican Scenario. The numbers repesent a sequence of time points at 15 second intervals, assuming that Arnold's plane is coming in from the left at 100 mph and the pelicans (path denoted by asterisks) are coming from the northwest at 50 mph. Since the mountains would be far off the diagram at this scale, I have only attempted to indicate the general direction of Mt. Rainier and Mt. Adams at the two critical timepoints. direction of Mt. Rainier at t=1 *1 2 *3 4 *5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 6 9 *7 8 10 *9 10 11 *11 direction of Mt. Adams at t=8 Arnold starts clocking the objects for speed when they pass Mt. Rainier at t=1. At this point they are at a distance of about 1 1/4 miles. He stops clocking at t=8 when the objects reach the edge of Mt. Adams (actual duration = 102 seconds). Assume that it is at this point he decides to get a better look by turning his plane so that it is sideways to his line of sight to the objects. (For simplicity, I have shown Arnold's flight path as if he had made an abrupt turn on reaching the flight path of the objects.) At t=9 he has turned around so that the objects are directly out his left window, and after a brief period of observation he loses sight of them. He may have kept on this course for a while (shown as t=10 and t=11 to clarify his direction of motion) or he may have continued circling to his right in order to come back to his original heading and resume his eastward journey. -George Fergus
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 8 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 09:31:09 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 20:40:49 -0500 Subject: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso I don't know what to msake of Colonel Philip J.Corso and his book 'The Day After Roswell', but Corso was recently interviewed in the UK-based magazine 'The X-Factor' (issue 25). One question put to Corso was: Have you seen the Roswell autopsy video ? I saw the Roswell footage and I saw some things in it that nobody could have known about, so maybe that gives it authenticity, I don't know. I lean towards the opinion that it is authentic, but I can't really tell you that I'm 100 per cent sure. What this says about Corso and Ray Santilli's film I'm not sure. Any comments ? Philip Mantle.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 8 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: Clark Hathaway <earthwrk@doitnow.com> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 14:00:00 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 21:38:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 15:46:38 +0100 > From: Don Ledger <dledger@istar.ca> > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > > Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 02:51:30 -0500 > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > > >From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com> > > >Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:42:46 EST > > >To: updates@globalserve.net > > >Subject: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s <snip> > > >Thank you for your honest account. Most revealing. > > Please don't take this remark personally Paul as it is not > > directed at you specifically. The reason I wrote that e-mail is > > because I'm a little tired of having 'other people' tell me what > > I have experienced. > <snipped> > > >What you describe shows quite clearly that you are prone to these > > >states of consciousness, John, but that of course does not make > > >your * experiences* any less valid or realistic. > > For someone who has never met me that's a pretty heavy diagnosis! > > How on Gods' good earth could you possibly know what I'm "prone > > to" or not? Do you freelance on the psychic hotline? > Hi John, Paul and List, > I have stayed out of this thread since the first, skimming the > various thoughts put forward by many of the heavyweights in the > business, trying to get a handle on it. I am surprised that it > took this long for someone to gently try to prod an abductee with > the line that it's all in his/her head. Hello Don and my compliments to the list... I find myself feeling bad for Paul. It is curious that as I sit here in front of this monitor, a fellow abduction experiencer, I fail to read Paul's commentary the way you apparently have and the way John obviously has. John I can make allowance for to a degree. These experiences after all represent some extremely traumatic events. I have been defensive myself a time or two in the past. > Now really, don't you think Paul that we are well past the point > in the abductee phenomenon where we can start tossing that old > chestnut around. I think we are. It's like using the Venus theory > to explain a football field sized object 100 feet over some > witnesses head. It's just too damned simplistic. > Two or three years ago I might have been more sympathetic to your > theory Paul, but not now. Like many in the UFO field, I have been > drawn into the abductee phenomenon by its association with the > UFO field. I get calls like everyone else on the subject. I go > out for an interview about a sighting then when that's been dealt > with there's that uneasiness [you get to recognize it after > awhile] that surfaces, the witness getting slightly agitated > before telling "the rest of the story". If you do some careful research Don, you perhaps will come tothe conclusion that the evidence for Abductions being associated with UFOs is at best circumstantial. At that moreover the association is extremely tenuous. > As a researcher you sit there detached, yet facinated, by the > details that come out. If you've read up on the subject you start > to see all of the usual telltale signs. So then you think, well <many needless putdowns snipped for brevity> > My business is to speak for them in my limited fashion and assure > Paul and others that want to treat this as a purely psychological > phenomenon, that they are well off the track. I suggest that you > cast about you, look in your own families, and you will find that > somewhere close to you is someone who has had something "highly > strange" happen to them and want some answers. > It won't be so easy to blow it off then. You know Don, it is absolutely astounding to me how suchseemingly intelligent gentlemen can completely misinterpret what another is saying. I believe that Paul is making an honest effort at an attempt to find an alternative view into these phenomenon. The Nuts and Bolts approach fails dismally does it not? > <snip> > It has been my experience that those who have had the abduction > experience, shop around looking for almost any explanation, short > of that they are crazy, to explain what has happened to them > before accepting the inevitable explanation, that it really > happened. Some choice they have...they were abducted or they're > crazy. I fail to understand this attitude that so-called Alien Abductionnecessarily represents a solid 3rd dimensional reality based phenomenon especially when there is overwhelming evidence that it is paranormal in nature. If the phenomena is based in perceived 3rd dimensional reality, why in all of the years of occurrence of incidents of "alien" abduction hasn't at least one episode been captured on video tape while in progress as has UFOs in the skies and in a few possible cases on the ground? I want to reiterate for the umpteenth time that by being a paranormal event rather than a conventional reality event, in no manner is the event or experience to be construed as any less real. It is so real that one can sustain conventional reality based evidence (marks, bruises, depressions, etc.) upon their body. In fact, such offers proof of my contention that we humans reside in a number of different "realities" simultaneously. Rather than being New Age psycho babble, these are tenets handed down through antiquity. For the uneducated, I would serve to inform that New Age babblings are twisted approximations of what is offered from a vast and varied occult/metaphysical data base that has been handed down over uncounted centuries. I become rather weary of seeing those who hold the narrow, unreasonable view of these phenomena representing events that occur within conventional 3rd dimension based reality constantly labeling those who hold a different view whether firm or tentative, as being other than sane. I find it unfortunate and ignorant. This "Techno-Bigotry" is increasingly disturbing. In August of 1990 at approximately 1:30 a.m., I was hauled bodily through the locked steel doors at the rear of my '79 Ford Van. Therefore I make this plea: If I ever categorize this event as one that occurred within conventionally perceived reality, please call the nearest mental health facility and have my carcass hauled off to a rubber room! That the event happened and was to me extremely real, is undeniable. There was an outside witness to some of the peripheral phenomena that convinces me that the event actually occurred. The phenomena alluded to was decidedly paranormal. > As for UFO sightings. I recently travelled 4,200 miles across > Canada from Nova Scotia to British Columbia to see my second UFO. > Get this. I was on my way into a shopping mall to buy film for my > camera when I, in company with another investigator, saw it. > Broad daylight, 2:00 pm local, beautiful blue sky, estimated > altitude of 2,500 to 3,000 feet, white, cigarette shaped object > object moving at about 125 to 150 mph. > Duration 1.5 to 2 minutes. > And I'm out of film. > Don Ledger Hahahaha! That is Standard Operating Procedure Don! ;-) Kind Regards... Clarke Hathaway
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 8 Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 17:58:14 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 23:30:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] > Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 22:40:03 PST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > > Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 16:52:02 -0800 > > From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > > > Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 10:24:03 -0700 > > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > > From: Jilain <jilain@rt66.com> [Jilain Jones] > > > Subject: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > > > >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] > > > >Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 17:45:01 PST > > > >To: updates@globalserve.net > > > >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > > > <big time major snip> > Give me a break. Please read what I have read about Keel's > theoriesl in my books and articles. (Please read my UFO > Encyclopedia, incidentally, if you want to learn something about > "professional scholarly advancement in this field," which is what > reviewers said they thought this was.) Though I have my private > suspicions, I have not once written of Keel as crazy, socially > inept, or pathetic -- adjectives he habitually hurls, in print > and elsewhere, against all who disagree with him. If Keel were > to write articles challenging my ideas, precisely as I have done > with his, there would be no problem, only healthy, entertaining, > and (one would hope) ultimately enlightening debate. > Personal attacks are pointless, counterproductive, and boring. I > need no lecture from you on that score, since this was precisely > the point I was making (and apparently you were missing) when I > raised the issue of Keel's ad hominem excesses. I wish John Keel > believed, as I do and I presume you do, in rational debate, but I > simply fail to see by what peculiar logic my criticizing him for > that makes me morally equivalent to him. Perhaps you could > explain it to me. > If, on the other hand, you want to direct your words to Keel, > which is where they ought to be addressed, I'll gladly give > you his address. > Jerry Clark Dear List: Wow! Since this topic seems to be getting a little personal, I have chosen to respond to this message by e-mailing Jerry Clark personally. Someone on this List was kind enough to give me some helpful advice, and before I leave this thread permanently and go back to "Lurker" and "nerve-hit" mode, I just wanted to say a few things (anyone listening?): First of all, although I am relatively new to the "UFO community", I am not new to the UFO field. I saw my first (and only) "physical" UFO while a teen in the 1960s. I still have newspaper articles about UFOs that I collected since that time, and have read enough books and seen enough video and TV documentations to give me at least some background. I have also read five of Keel's books and own a sixth, which I haven't had the time to read yet. As for Jerry Clark, I've only read one of his books. The only Clark books the local Libraries have are missing, and I pointed out to Jerry how good his books must be for them to have been stolen. Some of Jerry's other books are too expensive for my budget, and I will try to read them when they become available from friends or through used book stores. I have never said anything derogatory about Jerry's work, and respect what I have seen of it. I am also eager to read more of his work. I want to make it clear that I am not trying to "judge" anyone. I have enough faults of my own! I am only _reacting_ to what I thought was an unjustified attack on someone else's mental condition and theories, and to the potential damage that could be incurred on a very delicate and difficult area of research. It is not my intention to hurt anyone, especially those who are making an honest, open, and sincere attempt to help explain the UFO phenomena. And, regardless of what it may seem I'm saying, I would include Jerry Clark in that description. There! I've said it. In terms of 'UFO UpDates', I couldn't care less whether Keel has said derogatory things about Clark. That's not an area that I'm even interested in debating. Keel's not on this List and can't defend himself. I do care about what is being said on this List and how it may affect the continuing pursuit of the UFO enigma. I also care how experiencers are being treated and about the intimidating tone that is being set which may discourage experiencers from coming forth and adding to the discussion. I want them to know that some of us are here ready to go to bat for them if necessary. Otherwise we will lose a valuable source of _direct_ information, and a possibility to piece together some of the puzzle and revise some of the theories. I greatly value the opportunity to hear from all sides of the discussion, whether it be from authors, researchers, experiencers or "lurkers", and no-one can deny the miraculous efforts of Errol to make that happen. I hope it continues and that we don't end up losing more of the experiencers themselves. I know that some have given up and turned to Velez's List in desperation (my hat goes off to John Velez for providing this alternative). I have the sense that many experiencers may feel too intimidated to speak up. The few experiencers who have, have screamed and shouted on this List on many ocassions. But how many on this List have actually responded and asked them for more details, insights, etc. Isn't this what the List is _also_ about? (Am I wrong Errol?). That is why I try to defend the experiencers' point of view and sometimes get overly carried away when I feel someone is either belittleing (sp.?) or insulting them. And that is why I use John Velez as a perfect example. He has much to say, but no-one seems to want to listen. Individually, these people may not have all of the answers, but collectively, they might have some astounding clues. Ah, why do I bother! Chalk this up to another desparate failed attempt. I'm back to lurking mode. Thanks for listening, anyway. Does this hit the nerve of any of you lurkers out there? Let's have some support. Speak up! Please! Frustrated, in despair, but open to hope... John Koopmans
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: Irving Challenged To Recreate 'Julia' From: georgina@easynet.co.uk Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 01:01:58 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 05:29:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Irving Challenged To Recreate 'Julia' >Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 01:28:20 +0000 >From: Georgina <georgina@easynet.co.uk> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Circles Challenge >CIRCLES CHALLENGE >UFO Researcher, Georgina Bruni has challenged UK crop circle maker Rob >Irving to recreate "The Julia Set". Rob has agreed and the event will >take place next July. Serious researchers interested in witnessing the >event should e-mail <georgina@easynet.co.uk> The challenge is to >establish whether human crop cirle makers are capable of producing >quality intricate creations. Mr Irving has decided he no longer wishes to go on with this challenge with me involved. He has "fired me". <G> (which is interesting considering he didn't hire me in the first place)...... and appears to be making his own plans. The challenge was to him.... then he said he was bringing in his buddies...first....he could do it in one night...then he needed to plan the field...then the crop had to be perfect...then he needed four months notice of which field it was to be...and so on.... considering that the Julia Set was alleged to have been done within a two hour period in broad day light...one wonders..... Georgina
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: Congress in Acapulco From: werd@interlog.com [Drew Williamson] Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:36:11 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 05:10:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Congress in Acapulco SOURCE: Globe and Mail - p.C3 (Toronto, Ontario, Canada) DATE: December 8, 1997 Alien encounter films hurt UFO experts BY DAN TROTTA Reuters News Agency ACAPULCO - Most of the UFOs and extraterrestrials sighted lately on earth have not come from far-away galaxies but from Hollywood studios, raising a serious dilemma for professional UFO investigators. Some experts attending the Second World UFO Congress in Acapulco this weekend argue that popular science-fiction films are welcome publicity for their cause. But others say the string of hit movies, such as last summer's Men in Black and Contact, and television shows like The X-Files, should be scorned for reinforcing stereotypes and giving UFO debunkers more ammunition. "Of course, everything helps, including parodies like Men in Black," said Jaime Maussan, Mexico's top "ufologist" and organizer of the congress. "It suggests to the masses that there really was a group called Men in Black that was connected to military intelligence," he told Reuters. Even Independence Day, the 1996 blockbuster about aliens bent on invading Earth and enslaving humans, helped to increase the number of people who say they believe in UFOs and that governments are covering up proof of their existence, he said. The movie took advantage of the core beliefs of many UFO proponents: that in 1947 an alien spacecraft crashed near Roswell, N.M., and their bodies were recovered by the U.S. military and kept in the so-called Area 51 of a nearby base. "It speaks to us about Roswell, about Area 51, that there were aliens recovered and that the President of the United States is not always informed," Maussan said. "All of this conditions human beings more and more to believe it is true." Nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman called Independence Day. "a hoot" that he enjoyed for its special effects. He said nobody who went to see the film thought it was a documentary. But others at the conference lambasted Independence Day as practically sacrilegious for exploiting the Roswell story. Budd Hopkins, a leading investigator of supposed alien abductions of earthlings, called it "a terrible movie." Robert Dean, a former soldier who claims to have seen "Cosmic Top Secret" NATO documents proving that many UFOs were actually alien space ships, said he preferred more sober classics such as Close Encounters of the Third Kind and The Day the Earth Stood Still. "I found Independence Day distracting because it is typical Hollywood," Dean said. Dean said he and other UFO investigators have been working with producers, directors and writers in Hollywood to "tell the true story" about extraterrestrial visitors. "The true story is much more incredible than any horror movie you could make," he said.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: "George Fergus" <fergus@mail.ccrl.mot.com> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:41:09 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 05:15:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 06:42:01 -0500 > From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> > Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > If we could summarise, what remain the major problems with this > theoretical explanation? David Rudiak made a very good point about the spacing between the objects being too great for them to be birds. According to my Pelican Scenario, when Arnold observed the objects crossing a ridge straight ahead of him (roughly at my timepoint 6), they would still have been about a mile away. Since he estimated there was about 5 miles between the first and last objects at a distance of maybe 25 miles, this would still translate to about 1000 feet at a distance of one mile, making the distance between individual objects about 100 feet. Is this conceivable for pelicans flying in formation? The flashing of white underwings looking like reflections from a metallic surface is problematic also, but since there is no quantitative info given by Arnold, the brightness must be considered relative and thus within the realm of possibility. Oh, and by the way I gave the wrong distance for timepoint 1 in my scenario. It should be 2 1/2 miles, not 1 1/4. -George Fergus
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Project 1947 Notice Board From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 19:44:22 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 05:22:47 -0500 Subject: Project 1947 Notice Board NOTICE BOARD PROJECT 1947 PROJECT 1947 was formed to undertake historical research into the UFO phenomenon. The PROJECT 1947 E-mail research list and the PROJECT 1947 Web site were established to further this goal. We are pleased to announce a number of research projects by PROJECT 1947 members and request assistance in their completion. While some of this contemporary research may not lie within the original guidelines of the project, we welcome research which follows generally accepted standards for academic, scientific, historic or journalistic investigations. PROJECT 1947 has several Masters and Doctoral candidates on the e-mail list, and we wish to support academic inquiry regardless of outcome. If you can help with leads, information, personal accounts, documents, etc., please contact the researchers directly and assist them in their research efforts. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------- 1946 "Ghost Rocket" Reports The Archives for UFO Research in Sweden is preparing a report in English on the 1946 "ghost rocket" era. This winter they are concentrating on checking Swedish microfilms of more than forty Swedish newspapers, particularly for the July-August 1946 period. Associated documents and articles will also be translated into English. The Archives for UFO Research is seeking 1946 accounts of the "ghost rocket" reports from Scandinavia, Europe, the U.K. and the United States. Some researchers may have these accounts in either paper form or as ascii on their computers. Anyone willing to share such items or volunteer their assistance, please contact Anders Liljegren of AFU at: anders.liljegren@norrkoping.mail.telia.com ------------------------------------------------------- Early Brazilian UFOlogy Ed Stewart writes: I am interested in the early Ufological history of Brazil. The earliest Brazilian UFO newsletter that I am aware of is C.P.D.V. THE FLYING SAUCER, that was Jose Escobar Faria's Centro De Pesquisa Dos Discos Voadores housed in Sao Paulo, Brazil. Its first issue was published in August, 1956, and lasted for 10 issues till February, 1958. Its editor was Auriphebo Berrance Simoes. It was a bilingual publication. I have the English versions, but have never seen the Portuguese version for the Brazilian population. I am also trying to secure copies/originals of Walter Buehler's bulletins as well as copies of early UFO newsclippings of Brazilian papers. These early Brazilian publications were mostly for exchange only, so it is very possible that there are more copies existing outside of Brazil with European organizations existing at the time than inside of Brazil. I have obtained access to many of Walter Buehler's bulletins and would like to complete the series. His SBEDV bulletins were also published in Portuguese with independently published (I believe that to be the case on most issues) English summary translations. The "Sociedade Brasileira De Estudos Sobre Discos Voadores bulletins also started in the late 50s. I don't know how long they lasted. Walter Buehler, it is my understanding, passed away within the last year or so. I would appreciate hearing from anyone who may be in a position to assist either myself or Barry Greenwood (CAUS) with newsclips and/or publications (original or copies) of early Brazilian material. Please mail me at egs@netcom.com - Ed Stewart ------------------------------------------------------- Ground Traces and "Solid" UFO Light Reports Bill Chalker is interested in reports of unusual ground traces and is keen to form a world-wide network of UFO physical trace researchers . Ultimately Bill would like to establish an international database of trace cases relating to UFOs (excluding those elaborate "traces" that have come to be popularly known as "crop circles.") Bill is also collecting reports of falls of "Angel Hair" and unusual "solid light" cases associated with UFOs. These "solid lights" often demonstrate unusual properties, e.g. light beams that "bend" at angles, or display "fluid-like" states. (See Bill's book _The OZ Files_, pp. 201-202 for a "fluid light" case from the 1970s). Contact Bill at bchalker@ozemail.com.au ------------------------------------------------------ Aircraft / UFO Encounters Dominique Weinstein continues to revise and update his Aircraft / UFO Encounters catalogue. He would like to hear from anyone with personal accounts or information about this topic. Dominique would also welcome correspondence with those who might have more information about the cases currently in his "ACUFOE" catalogue. Contact Dominique at WEINSTEIND@compuserve.com (For information about the availability of copies of Dominique's catalogues, please mail Jan Aldrich at jan@cyberzone.net) ----------------------------------------------------- U.S. Forest Service Fire Lookout Reports Dr. James Doerter is conducting a small study on observations of aerial phenomena by U.S. Forest Service Fire Lookouts. Lookouts today average about 15-20 summers on the job and they are not usually fooled by comets, meteors, the moon, Venus, ball lightning, sun dogs, St. Elmo's discharge, helicopters, etc. They are usually middle class, reticent people who normally live a rural lifestyle during the rest of the year. They are better than average observers and have high reliability. At least twice in the past, Forest Service personnel were asked to help in other observation programs. During the Japanese Balloon Bomb attacks they were part of an ad hoc federal employees and law enforcement observers network to report sightings, and during the Condon Committee investigations they were asked specifically to look for UFOs. Lookout reports exist from the beginning of the UFO era. Some have been found in small local newspapers. Generally reports come directly from the observers. While the study is primarily concerned with Fire Lookouts, any Forest Service employees' reports (State and Federal) are most welcome. Published accounts from newspapers and the UFO literature are also sought. E-mail contact address is: OregonOtto@aol.com -------------------------------------------------------- Abduction Experiencer Survey Stephanie Kelley is a graduate student at the University of Kansas who is researching the significance of the abduction phenomenon for her dissertation and would like to contact experiencers and those who may have access to them - other researchers, support group leaders, etc. Stephanie is a communication studies major, and her research focuses on the role language plays in describing and recounting the abduction experience, the similarities (or differences) that may be present in elements of recollections, and so on. The study also has the wider goal of increasing scholarship in the investigation of this phenomenon. If you are an experiencer, or a researcher who can help, please contact Stephanie. A letter of introduction which explains her research project and the anonymous nature of the study can be viewed at: http://www/iufog.org/project1947/survey.htm Stephanie can be contacted at skelley@falcon.cc.ukans.edu and is willing to forward her study material via e-mail or as hardcopies through the mail. ------------------------------------------------------- Seeking UFO / Aviation Information: 1947 - 1950 French researcher Pierre Lagrange is completing a book on the emergence of the UFO phenomenon, with an emphasis on the period 1947-1950. Pierre has undertaken extensive personal research and has interviewed many prominent people from the period including members of Kenneth Arnold's family, Marjorie Palmer, Captain E.J. Smith, Curtis Fuller, and Bill Bequette. He would like to contact other people who may have participated in the early UFO waves: Journalists, UFO witnesses, military or federal investigators, etc., or their families and associates who would be willing to detail their experiences. In particular Pierre would like to locate people who worked for Project Sign in 1948 and anyone who investigated flying disc sightings during the summer of 1947. He would also like information about discussions among pilots and military personnel regarding the "sound barrier" before it was broken by Chuck Yeager in October of 1947, and any stories or rumours about the existence of this "barrier", secret aircraft projects, the development of guided missiles, and so on. Any pilots or personnel who might have recollections they'd be willing to share would be greatly appreciated. Any UFO or aviation/military historians who have researched this time period and would be willing to share information, please contact Pierre also. He can be contacted at: Observatoire des Parasciences Pierre Lagrange BP 75 - La Plaine 13244 Marseille Cedex 01 FRANCE or via e-mail at: lagrange@gulliver.fr Pierre requests that those with information to share please confine it to historical material that can in some way be verified or documented. ----------------------------------------------------------- -- Jan Aldrich Project 1947 http://www.iufog.org/project1947/ ------------------------- Index: Project 1947
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: Brasilia Conference (BBC Update) From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:44:19 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 05:31:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia Conference (BBC Update) Found at BBC's site. URL: http://news.bbc.co.uk:80/hi/english/despatches/newsid_37000/37715.stm Monday, December 8, 1997 Published at 12:12 GMT Despatches Stephen Cviich Brasilia Delegates from around the world are gathering in the capital of Brazil, Brasilia, for a seven-day conference on the subject of Unidentified Flying Objects, or UFOs. The conference which starts on Monday aims to convince governments and international organisations that the study of extra-terrestial lifeforms deserves official recognition as a science. Here's our Brazil correspondent, Stephen Cviic: This conference is the biggest of its kind ever held in Brazil and brings together more than 80 UFO specialists, or ufologists, from several countries, including the United States, Canada, Russia and China. It is being organized by a group of Brazilian ufologists who want to draw the world's attention to what they say is the increasing evidence of extra-terrestrial lifeforms, and they are keen to gain official recognition for their subject as a science in its own right. The UFO specialists also want official archives on the subject to be opened, because they say governments know far more about it than they acknowledge. In particular, the conference organisers say there have been several military enquiries into alleged UFO sightings which have never been made public. Brazil itself has proved a fertile ground for those who believe in the existance of life beyond our planet. In 1982 a military aeroplane is said to have collided with an unidentified flying object, and last year the town of Varginha, in the south-east of the country, attracted nationwide attention when a group of girls said they had seen an alien being. It also seems particularly appropriate that this conference is being held in Brasilia. Brazil's futuristic purpose-built capital is regarded by some people as a place of mystical significance and the design of some of the buildings probably contributes to this impression. The National Congress building is a good example of this. When they hold their debates, Brazil's deputies and senators are sitting under a roof which is crowned by two large, concrete saucers.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 UFO Researchers Meet In Brasilia (UPI) From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:47:16 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 05:36:40 -0500 Subject: UFO Researchers Meet In Brasilia (UPI) >From United Press International. URL: http://biz.yahoo.com/upi/97/12/08/international_news/brazilufo_1.html Monday December 8 4:48 AM EST UFO researchers meet in Brasilia LONDON, Dec. 8 (UPI) _ Top UFO researchers from 27 countries gather in the Brazilian capital this week to take a serious look at Unidentified Flying Objects. The 50 scholars believe their discipline merits U.N. recognition. A BBC report cites a U.S. poll indicating popular belief in intelligent life on other planets is at an all-time high. Most mainstream scientists scoff at the grainy photographs and stereotyped eyewitness accounts presented by so-called "ufologists" as evidence of alien visitations to Earth. But the popularity of film and television space fiction testifies to the human willingness to believe. Television's "The X-Files" series raised so many questions about "the Roswell incident" that the CIA took pains earlier this year to issue a final report on the mysterious sightings in the New Mexico desert in 1947. The CIA said weather balloons were mistaken for UFOs, and crash test dummies for dead aliens. The CIA's report may have fallen on deaf ears. A standard ufologist argument is that governments do not tell the truth about alien encounters. Ufologists took heart from the discovery earlier this year of a meteorite from Mars that appeared to contain evidence of organic structures. But not all scientists accepted NASA's conclusion that the "Mars rock" contained a fossilized micro-organism. _- Copyright 1997 by United Press International. All rights reserved.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:04:02 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 05:48:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 12:15:53 -0800 >From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >> Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 19:02:30 -0700 >> From: "Clarke Hathaway <earthwrk@doitnow.com> >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >> > Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 02:51:30 -0500 >> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> > From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >> > >From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com> >> > >Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:42:46 EST >> > >To: updates@globalserve.net >> > >Subject: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >> > >John Velez wrote: >---snippety snip, snip--- >> I have an effective modality of dealing with these visitations. I >> really don't give a flying fig for any negative commentary by >> would be detractors. I have something that works and I have >> ceased to play the role of victim. If anyone out there can make >> the same claim, then I congratulate them! >> Clarke Hathaway Hi Ted, hi All, Ted writes, >I am driven uncontrollably to sing the praises of Paul and >Clarke. They are to be honored for the fruits of their life-long >studies. <A large snip that I really hate to make, Teds' post is so right on and done in such good spirit that any response I could have to penned Clarke would have paled in comparison. Ted my man, I don't know you but I like your style. Classy, intelligent, and right on!> >I am so envious of Paul and Clarke. The depths of their wisdom, and >the breadths of their vision empower them to declare the true nature >of poor John Velez's experiences. Such learned men are immune from >the rabbled protestations of "Sophistry!" >Bye... Ted.. And precisely why I chose not to respond! thanx for saying it for me. Ted Veins, gotta love a guy like that! <G> John Velez, SOS (on the - Side Of Sanity)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:39:33 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 05:49:58 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 09:31:09 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 20:40:49 -0500 Subject: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > What this says about Corso and Ray Santilli's film I'm not sure. > Any comments ? Here's my comment: Corso and Santilli can claim just about anything and someone somewhere will take them seriously. I don't take either of them seriously. Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Kenneth Arnold & Being 'There' From: KAnder6444 <KAnder6444@aol.com> [Kathleen Andersen] Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:34:32 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 06:19:56 -0500 Subject: Kenneth Arnold & Being 'There' >Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 >From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO Update: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony >From: fergus@ukraine.corp.mot.com [George Fergus] and >From: USDSCUBA@aol.com [Gordon Scott] I've really enjoyed reading your discussion about Kenneth Arnold and would like to make a couple of comments. Gordon wrote: >according to a close friend within the military at the time the >vehicle as seen by Mr K Arnold was a German made Gotha Go229 IX >being test flown for radar testing. Gordon, I will not doubt that this prototype was in existence or even tested. However, why would any agency -- aerospace or military -- test a valuable piece of machinery in an area as remote and isolated as Mt. Rainier? Although Boeing as always been a rumor hotbed for saucer type craft development, it would seem that testing an aircraft on a 14,000 foot volcano would be too volatile and a risky bet. James and George Fergus: I can't buy the pelican theory. I live here, I see that mountain every day it is clear, I sleep up there when the weather permits, I have hiked her by every angle and I have never seen a pelican there nor in Washington state. Perhaps there are a couple that live on the coast near the Oregon but I will stick my neck out and say that this weather is on the chilly side for pelicans. And speaking of Canadian Geese. Yes perhaps a group would be flying south "near" Mt. Rainier. But the ones I've observed that pass thru here travel along Puget Sound or the coast. Makes more sense to follow the water I would think...... food source, etc. To all: If you were to live here as I do, you would notice that Mt. Rainier can be very deceiving. If you are driving south on one road, she looks far away. If you were to go directly west one mile and travel south on another road, she would look very close. Reading a map of the area cannot give you an accurate picture of what things are like. I am an outside sales person and spend a lot of time in my car watching that mountain and pondering the possibilities of what Kenneth Arnold saw. I tend to be a skeptic about all UFO sightings but will still stand my ground that "being here" and living here gives you a better understanding of the possibilities that what Ken Arnold saw was real. Last year we had a case with the National UFO Reporting Center. My part of the investigation was to go up to an area called Sunrise and interview the rangers. First of all, it is quite embarrassing to walk into a visitors center and say "Hi, I'm with the National UFO Reporting Center". Total silence in the whole place. We had received one report from a hiker spotting a UFO. After interviewing the rangers, it turns out that they had received about 20 reports of a UFO that same day! Whether it was 1947 or 1996, UFO's are still in the picture in the Pacific Northwest. Happy Holidays Kathleen Andersen MUFON State Section Director Seattle Washington
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: jared@valuserve.com (Andromeda.net- Anderson, Jared) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 21:57:12 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 06:21:42 -0500 Subject: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> > Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 09:31:09 +0000 > Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 20:40:49 -0500 > Subject: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > I don't know what to msake of Colonel Philip J.Corso and his book > 'The Day After Roswell', but Corso was recently interviewed in > the UK-based magazine 'The X-Factor' (issue 25). > One question put to Corso was: > Have you seen the Roswell autopsy video ? > I saw the Roswell footage and I saw some things in it that nobody > could have known about, so maybe that gives it authenticity, I > don't know. I lean towards the opinion that it is authentic, but > I can't really tell you that I'm 100 per cent sure. > What this says about Corso and Ray Santilli's film I'm not sure. > Any comments ? > Philip Mantle. Have you corresponded with Bob Shell about this new work done by Theresa Carlson? What answers have the 2 of you drawn from this research? Jared.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 21:47:49 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 06:24:51 -0500 Subject: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass > Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 05:16:43 -0800 (PST) > From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass Sighting s > > Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 21:38:29 -0800 > > From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass > > Sightings <massive snip, if you haven't followed closely, go to ufomind and read the archives...> In case Jim would choose to argue from an informed position, I leave my following lines... > > All the estimation and speculation in the world cannot substitute > > for the real facts and experience. A trip to > > http://shuttle.nasa.gov and following the links to the reentry > > profile page will answer these questions far better than I can. > But if you think the bulk of the observations were made while the > objects were in an ionizing stage, long before they began to burn > up, can you not supply us with a ball park estimate of what you > think their altitude was and their speed relative to orbital > velocity? > I should think that if such displays are characteristic of > decaying debris while still far above where any burning up > occurs, the show would persist for several orbits and furthermore > be occurring from scores of the thousands of objects presently in > decaying orbits. One doesn't see any such thing on a clear > night. > But if we both agree that a real object reentered and was viewed > by few or some or many, and UFOs also were viewed by many at > about the same time, then there isn't much left for us to debate > on this incident. > You have to hand it to those UFO guys -- how easily they can stay > several jumps ahead of scientific human minds. > Jim Deardorff Jim, all of the erroneous conclusions you can draw from an uniformed position on orbital decay will do little to support your claims. From the time an object kisses the orbit death of the first wisps of ionoshpere to the point of impact is less than an hour and less than one quarter of a revolution. Even my first, off the top of my head, estimate of how much this would be was excessive by a factor of two. There is not a sharp demarcation from "ionization" to "burn up" phase of decay. Only a long, gradual transition. The ionization trail will begin first and continue until the kinetic energy of the debris can no longer literally punch electrons off from atmospheric molecules. After one or two tumbles, the booster will start to break up. It just can't fly sideways. Again, the breakup will not be a sudden single event, but continuing through the decay. As the booster is seared by the friction, light thin metals will boil off early in the decay while dense hard objects will burn deep into the atmosphere, perhaps even to the ground. What do we learn from the many reports coming from British Columbia and Washington State? Most widespread are the reports of the eerie contrail with the glittering fairy dust. A clear indication that the debris was high enough and fast enough to create an ionization trail throughout this area. As objects moved from the west to disappear in the east they glowed brighter and their flaming trails grew longer. Again, just as decaying debris would. Most witnesses actually observed the objects for less than a minute after the first fiery flashes drew their attention to the sky. During this brief time, there would be little relative motion between the major pieces. They would certainly appear to be flying in formation. In the quotes above that I have snipped, everywhere that you find anomolous behavior, I find a reasonable description of burning debris. This must represent some form of impasse in our dialogue. The specific details you keep asking for are relatively insignificant in the broad range of a decaying profile where these observations could be seen. I live a rather casual, low income lifestyle. Rather than vacuously say that the mythical somebody should personaly interview these witnesses at the spot where they made their observations, I will make myself available. If anyone or any organization would care to pay my way to Seattle for a couple of weeks with some minimal per diem and minor compensation, I would gladly track down the witness and ask them to recreate this event for us. I am sure that I could set aside my own conclusions to ask the simple questions of where were they and what was the path of these objects as they passed. I could record their descriptions on tape to expose any bias that could slip into my questions. Perhaps I would be lucky enough to find those few witnesses whose events were totally unrelated to the decay of some Russian booster. Any serious offers can be passed to me by email... Bye... Ted..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: "Clark Hathaway" <earthwrk@doitnow.com> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 23:41:34 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 06:34:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 12:15:53 -0800 > From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > > Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 19:02:30 -0700 > > From: "Clarke Hathaway <earthwrk@doitnow.com> > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > > > Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 02:51:30 -0500 > > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > > From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> > > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > > > >From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com> > > > >Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:42:46 EST > > > >To: updates@globalserve.net > > > >Subject: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > > > >John Velez wrote: > ---snippety snip, snip--- > > I have an effective modality of dealing with these visitations. I > > really don't give a flying fig for any negative commentary by > > would be detractors. I have something that works and I have > > ceased to play the role of victim. If anyone out there can make > > the same claim, then I congratulate them! > > Clarke Hathaway > I am driven uncontrollably to sing the praises of Paul and > Clarke. They are to be honored for the fruits of their life-long > studies. Their years of effort and discovery have yeilded unto > them such an exacting perception of reality that it must be more <an extreme amount discarded for the sake of brevity> Ted: What Part of my declaration of these constituting MY experiences did you not understand? Or is it perhaps that your capacity for comprehension of what you read merely extremely low? John has his experiences and I have mine as does Paul. I do NOT believe that it is incumbent upon you, myself or anyone else to state that any experience is more or less valid than the next one. This is not a competition here. There are NO prizes. I cannot speak for Paul, only my perception of what he was stating ... which by the way appeared far different to me apparently than it did to you, John and perhaps more than I care to think about. Perhaps you would be well served to ponder my remarks as to the emergence of 'Techno Bigotry". > I am so envious of Paul and Clarke. The depths of their wisdom, and > the breadths of their vision empower them to declare the true nature > of poor John Velez's experiences. Such learned men are immune from > the rabbled protestations of "Sophistry!" > Bye... Ted.. Not so fast Ted... Why is it that I AM seeing no mention of John's professed education in at least one esoteric organization as well as his stated 'years long' practice of meditation? It is NOT my problem if You, John or anyone else for that matter choose to view my experiences as well as my opinions as personal attacks. The bottom line Ted is this. If John or anyone else is going to use their experiences and/or credentials in an effort to prop-up their opinions as being those with the only validity, then it is only fair, proper and to be expected that others be afforded the same right. Your sarcasm in this matter only serves to display for all to see that there are components within my views that serve to greatly threaten your own. Otherwise your reaction would not be so vitriolic. Notice that I mention Reaction rather than response. There happens to be a great deal of difference between the two. Clarke Hathaway
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:18:55 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 06:42:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony >Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:28:30 -0600 (CST) >From: "George Fergus" <fergus@mail.ccrl.mot.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony >> Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 14:09:01 -0800 >> From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony >Ted Viens wrote to James Easton: >Here is my attempt to make a time and position chart for the >Pelican Scenario. [mercy snip] List, A fifty year old case. An experienced pilot, Kenneth Arnold, saw a train objects that flew extremely fast from his private aircraft. They didn't look like aircraft, they didn't look like birds. He is so excited that he turns toward them to have a better look. After landing, he is so excited that he tells reporters about it. Nobody had after heard of flying saucers or UFOs or whatever. Arnold just reports his observation. Fifty years later someone comes along: 'they were geese'. Seems they couldn't have been geese. 'OK, then they were American White Pelicans'. The arguments against this have been presented over and over again. Still, the debate doesn't die out. Worse, some people take this extreme silliness seriously. The debate goes on for weeks. People who have better things to do waste their time on total absurdity. On certain days Ufology is just bizarre. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Arnold, Geese and Pelicans - The End From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 06:56:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 06:56:03 -0500 Subject: Arnold, Geese and Pelicans - The End Time to call closure on The Birds folks, moments before Dasher, Prancer, Donder, Blitzen and Olive (the other reindeer) make their way toward the Cascades and Esther Bunny.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: UFO tracking predictions From: "Rob Bull" <RAB@cadcentre.co.uk> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 11:52:00 GMT Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:07:51 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO tracking predictions >Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 10:00:33 +1030 >From: JJ <fierycelt@full-moon.com> [Jennifer Jarvis] >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: UFO tracking predictions >>Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 13:25:53 -0600 (CST) >>From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: UFO tracking predictions >>On Sat 6 Dec 1997 Joel Henry wrote in response to >>comments from Jennifer Jarvis ... >>Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 14:16:22 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Database interest >>>Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 20:23:06 +1030 >>>From: JJ <fierycelt@full-moon.com> [Jennifer Jarvis] >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Database interest >> [snip] >>>I know of a gentleman in England who has researched UFO sightings >>>dating back to the late 19th Century. >>What's his name (e-mail address)? I'd like to get ahold of him. >>He could be a real beneficial contributor. <snip> >>>I have also had feedback from other people around the world to >>>whom I have sent specially generated customized charts and graphs >>>for their specific areas. Here again, the dates and times >>>predicted have been VERY accurate. [snip] >Anyway, the gentleman's name is T. Roy Dutton. Neither the >envelope he sent from England nor the enclosed material provides >any info at all on how to contact him; no mail address, email >address, phone number, notta. Jennifer/Joel/Brian, I asked Roy Dutton for help with my first UFO 'case' in early 1994. I gave him a location, a time and a date, and he sent me back some graphs. Sure enough, he was able to show that 'my' UFO was 'very close' to the UFO 'predicted' by his graphs. Trouble was, his graphs showed a tightly packed set of curves, printed to a very coarse scale on a line printer. It would be very difficult for a UFO sighting NOT to appear 'close' to one of the curves. It was when he also told me WHERE the UFO had come from that my interest in his method plummeted. Roy may have improved things since 1994 of course, but from what I saw then I would NOT say that Roy Dutton's method is the holy grail of UFO prediction. Rob Bull BUFORA Accredited Investigator
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: Roswell Rods From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:19:30 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:21:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Roswell Rods At the suggestion of a friend I just spent some time looking at the "smoking gun" which is supposed to prove that the "rods' are real. For those interested it's at: http://www.roswellrods.com/int.html After I got up off the floor, set my chair upright again, and managed to get hold of myself from my fit of ROFLMAO disease, I thought I should jot down a few points. Yes, these images are truly the "smoking gun". They prove rather conclusively that the "rods" are insects caught in sunlight. In some images you can clearly see the sine wave form of the "appendages" which is so typical of the wing motion of insects in flight. Sequence 5 if particularly clear in this respect. The final set of images compares the well-known Hawaiian image of an airplane in haze to one of the "rods" and says that they are strikingly similar. To a blind man, maybe, but not to anyone with halfway decent eyesight. Although not directly part of ufology, this bunch of badly seasoned baloney exemplifies what is wrong with ufology. People who should know better foisting off spurious evidence onto people not equipped to evaluate it for themselves. Look and learn. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:39:56 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 09:14:44 -0500 Subject: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 21:57:12 -0700 >From: jared@valuserve.com (Andromeda.net- Anderson, Jared) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Have you corresponded with Bob Shell about this new work done by >Theresa Carlson? >What answers have the 2 of you drawn from this research? >Jared. Jared, Speaking strictly for myself and not for Philip: Yes, Theresa sent me her overlays a while ago. She has demonstrated that if you adjust size and angle it is possible to make the upper outline of the left thighs line up in images from the two autopsies. But when you do this "manipulation" (Theresa objects to my use of that word), then NOTHING else in the images lines up, not even the lower outline of the same thigh. What does this prove? To me it only proves that the two creatures have the same leg structure. As I have pointed out elsewhere, I could take two of my photographs of nude models and do the same. This would not prove that it was the same woman in both photos. Nor would it prove that they were identical twins, clones, dummies cast from the same mold, whatever. Ultimately it might prove that they were both human, since it would be unlikely that a chimp or gorilla leg could be made to line up. I have talked personally to everyone who is known to have seen both autopsies. Every one of them stresses differences in the bodies rather than similarities. Since Philip is one of those people, perhaps he would care to comment on his own impressions of the similarities/differrences of the two bodies. I applaud Theresa for her efforts. She had devoted a lot of time to this, and I know she is an honest researcher trying to get to the truth. I just do not agree with her conclusions from the work she has done. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: UFO tracking predictions From: JJ <fierycelt@full-moon.com> [Jennifer Jarvis] Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 09:50:33 +1030 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:18:12 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO tracking predictions > From: "Rob Bull" <RAB@cadcentre.co.uk> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO tracking predictions > Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 11:52:00 GMT >Jennifer/Joel/Brian, > I asked Roy Dutton for help with my first UFO 'case' in early 1994. > I gave him a location, a time and a date, and he sent me back > some graphs. Sure enough, he was able to show that 'my' UFO > was 'very close' to the UFO 'predicted' by his graphs. > Trouble was, his graphs showed a tightly packed set of curves, > printed to a very coarse scale on a line printer. It would be very > difficult for a UFO sighting NOT to appear 'close' to one of the curves. > It was when he also told me WHERE the UFO had come from that > my interest in his method plummeted. > Roy may have improved things since 1994 of course, but from what > I saw then I would NOT say that Roy Dutton's method is the holy grail > of UFO prediction. > Rob Bull > BUFORA Accredited Investigator< Hi there Rob!!! As I mentioned in my FIRST posting, I am but a humble "amateur," but have found that these "event" prediction charts have helped my "sightings efficiency" enormously. I now do not waste time going out at all times of night and day any more. I just go out, set up camera, film and go home! Best wishes, Jennifer
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass Sightings From: TotlResrch <TotlResrch@aol.com> [Kal K. Korff] Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:03:58 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 12:08:22 -0500 Subject: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass Sightings >Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 21:47:49 -0800 >From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass > Sightings <snip> >I live a rather casual, low income lifestyle. Rather than >vacuously say that the mythical somebody should personaly >interview these witnesses at the spot where they made their >observations, I will make myself available. If anyone or any >organization would care to pay my way to Seattle for a couple of >weeks with some minimal per diem and minor compensation, I would >gladly track down the witness and ask them to recreate this event >for us. I am sure that I could set aside my own conclusions to >ask the simple questions of where were they and what was the path >of these objects as they passed. I could record their >descriptions on tape to expose any bias that could slip into my >questions. Perhaps I would be lucky enough to find those few >witnesses whose events were totally unrelated to the decay of >some Russian booster. >Any serious offers can be passed to me by email... >Bye... Ted.. Dear Ted/List: I wouldn't waste my time on this, many of us up here in the Seattle/Northwest region saw this debris and it was just as "impressive" as the old Skylab debris that feel to Earth years ago. Why? Duh, because it WAS space debris. Or, to put it comically perhaps, "How SNEAKY of those 'aliens' to ride into Earth into our atmosphere under the cover of falling man-made space debris!" Yeah, right. It is my personal opinion, for what it's worth, that you're wasting your time with Jim Deardorff. After all, this is a man who believes in the Talmud Immanuel, (Billy Meier's version of the Bible and "last testament" of Christ) and blinbdly believes Meier in general AND thinks that Joseph Smith's "angel" Moroni was a space alien!! Regarding Deardorff's activities on Meier, they are shameful...but consistent. He believes in Meier's photos as being "authentic" for which there are no original negatives which is also true for Meier's "Talmud". There's no original scroll or document for that either, but this never stopped Jim from endorsing it anyway. Jim STILL has yet to tell the ENTIRE world HOW one can "authenticate" (scientifically, as opposed to pseudo-scientifically) ANY photo without original negatives. I "psychically" predict he will continue to decline to do so. The truth is, Deardorff can't, and I have no idea whether he HONESTLY knows better or is just plain "stupid" or is a "less informed individual" to use two phrases Billy Meier (whom Deardorff considers to be a PROPHET, just like Meier says he is!) himself often throws around. Finally, (and this is also my own opinion) I have become personally very much disillusioned with the National UFO Reporting Center. They seem to defer to UFOs as their favorite "explanation" all too often nowadays rather than opting to be more objective and only resort to the "UFO" explanation AFTER they've exhausted ALL possibilities. They're a rag tag operation, but way off the mark on their "explanations" of various sightings. Lastly, I found out this past weekend that two people in the Seattle area have taken it upon themselves to start somewhat of a palace revolt against the NUFORC, by calling up their phone lines and faking UFO reports or describing (deliberately) what are clearly cases of airplanes, meteors (one was the space shuttle) and as predictable, Davenport and Company think these are "UFOs" as well. Well, when I heard this, I told these people that this was NOT what the UFO field needs, that Davenport MEANS WELL but is not always asobjective as one would like, and I also told them that IF they did not STOP this activity that I'd REPORT them. They have now stopped. IF Peter and the NUFORC care to get in touch with me, sometime AFTER next February when I have the time, I will gladly tell them which reports they have been suckered on. Some of them, were even the Phoenix lights! (shudder!). Davenport may already know about this, since he alluded to this taking place regarding the Phoenix Lights on the Laura Lee Show radio program about two months ago or so. I remember when the NUFORC was run by Bob Gribble and in my opinion the level of objectivity back in those long forgotten days was much more pronounced than it is at present Sorry to be a party spoiler. Kal (still waiting for INCONTROVERTIBLE EVIDENCE of a REAL extraterrestrial visitation, been looking for 25 years now and counting....) Korff Konfuscious saying #94: "Colonel Corso will be exposed in an upcoming and devastating expose as a fraud in January, 1988, and those who have bought his book may very well be entitled to a REFUND in a CLASS ACTION SUIT AGAINST Pocket Books." Stay tuned, folks...this is going to be one humdinger.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates] Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:27:08 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 11:49:07 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 09:31:09 +0000 > From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: The X-Factor > I don't know what to msake of Colonel Philip J.Corso and his book > 'The Day After Roswell', but Corso was recently interviewed in > the UK-based magazine 'The X-Factor' (issue 25). > One question put to Corso was: > Have you seen the Roswell autopsy video ? > I saw the Roswell footage and I saw some things in it that nobody > could have known about, so maybe that gives it authenticity, I > don't know. I lean towards the opinion that it is authentic, but > I can't really tell you that I'm 100 per cent sure. > What this says about Corso and Ray Santilli's film I'm not sure. > Any comments ? > Philip Mantle. My first take on this quote: It reminds me of a politician talking out of both sides of his mouth so whatever happens, he can later say "Well I knew" or "Well as you know I said..." Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: UFO tracking predictions From: ASIUS <asius@mindless.com> [Mike Stahl] Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:24:57 +1030 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:09:00 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO tracking predictions Rob Bull - BUFORA Accredited Investigator wrote: > From: "Rob Bull" <RAB@cadcentre.co.uk> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO tracking predictions > Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 11:52:00 GMT > Jennifer/Joel/Brian, > I asked Roy Dutton for help with my first UFO 'case' in early 1994. > I gave him a location, a time and a date, and he sent me back > some graphs. Sure enough, he was able to show that 'my' UFO > was 'very close' to the UFO 'predicted' by his graphs. > Trouble was, his graphs showed a tightly packed set of curves, > printed to a very coarse scale on a line printer. It would be very > difficult for a UFO sighting NOT to appear 'close' to one of the curves. > It was when he also told me WHERE the UFO had come from that > my interest in his method plummeted. > Roy may have improved things since 1994 of course, but from what > I saw then I would NOT say that Roy Dutton's method is the holy grail > of UFO prediction. > Rob Bull > BUFORA Accredited Investigator G'day Rob & List Members, Rob, Have you anything better? If so please share. Merry Christmas, Mike StahlSAUFORI ------------------------------------------------------------------ Applied Idiocy 101 #3 "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895. --------------------------------------------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 LaPaz's Activities From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 11:07:11 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:03:20 -0500 Subject: LaPaz's Activities The following is from Appendix A, to a draft document: "REPORT BY THE DIRECTOR OF INTELLIGENCE, USAF to the JOINT INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE on UNIDENTIFIED AERIAL OBJECTS," ca. 20 April 1949, page 6, item 15: "15. On 8 April 1949 the repeated occurrence of green fireball phenomena in New Mexico was discussed with Dr. Joseph Kaplan, member of the USAF Scientific Advisory Board. This phenomenon has casued considerable concern on the part of Hq. Fourth Army and has occupied the interests of Dr. Lincoln LaPaz of the University of New Mexico. Dr. LaPaz believes that the phenomena are not meteorites. Because of Dr. LaPaz's outstanding ability for accurate observation and his experience in identification of meteoritic phenomena, Dr. Kaplan expressed the belief that the greenfire phenomena should be further investigated. Dr. Kaplan's views and this phenomena were discussed on 12 April 1948 [1949?] with Dr. Theodore von Karman, Chairman, USAF Scientific Advisory Board, who feels that the problem is more properly in the field of upper atmosphere research than the field of intelligence." From: National Archives II, Record Group 341, Entry 214A, USAF Deputy Chief of Staff Operations--Directorate of Intelligence, Top Secret Control & Cable Section General Files July 1945- December 1954, Boxes 40-45 [I did not write down the box number, but the document is easily found by the TS Control #] TOP SECRET Control #2-7051A. + + + A message from the Project 1947 E-mail Research List Archives: LaPaz to Landsberg Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:31:48 -0800 The following was in the Project Sign, Albuquerque, New Mexico 5 December 1948, Incident 223 file on roll #7 of the Project Sign microfilms. It is probably also on the Project Blue Book microfilms. "EXTRACTS FROM LETTER TO DR. H. E. LANDSBERG, ECECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE RDB COMMITTEE ON GEOPHYSICS AND GEOGRAPHY FROM DR. LINCOLN LAPAZ, DIRECTOR OF THE INSTITUTE OF METEORITICS, UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO, December 28, 1948, Attching Appended Material "'Since December 4 I have been working almost continuously day and night on certain anomalous fireball phenomena of which a detailed account is given in the accompanying confidential enclosures. No doubt you are familiar with these incidents since I brought your name into the picture in my first report to the O. S. I. of the U. S. A. F. "'These incidents are not in the same category as the rather fanastic ones described by Norman G. Markham and certain inhabitants of Norton County, Kansas. Authorities here are deeply concerned. Perhaps you have knowledge of defensive training meaneuvers that would explain the observed concentration of incidents in certain highly important areas. "'Additional observations by 6 more AEC Security Service Guards make incidents referred tolook very serious. Please give this matter careful attention. I am sure two best observed incidents are not meteoric.'" COMMENTS: Norman G. Markham was a Fortean so we can imagine what he had to say about the Norton, Kansas meteor. Dr. H. H. Ninninger of the American Meteor Museum, and rival of Dr. LaPaz, had visited Norton, Kansas, searching for the Norton Meteorite. I am sure that did not sit well with LaPaz. It would be interesting to know if Dr. H. E. Landsberg left any personal papers in college or university archives. A small amount of LaPaz's correspondence has been uncovered in other scientists' papers. Jan Aldrich + + + To me the real history of UFOs is very interesting without the conspiracy theories of people with other axes to grind and without the anonymous "inside" informants who can never supply any credible and creditable evidence or support. It is unfortunate that most of LaPaz' personal papers are currently unavailable. -- Jan Aldrich Project 1947 http://www.iufog.org/project1947/ ------------------------- Index: Lincoln LaPaz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 11:17:51 PST Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:01:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 17:58:14 -0800 > From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > > From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] > > Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 22:40:03 PST > > To: updates@globalserve.net > > Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > > > > <big time major snip> > > Give me a break. Please read what I have read about Keel's > > theoriesl in my books and articles. (Please read my UFO > > Encyclopedia, incidentally, if you want to learn something about > > "professional scholarly advancement in this field," which is what > > reviewers said they thought this was.) Though I have my private > > suspicions, I have not once written of Keel as crazy, socially > > inept, or pathetic -- adjectives he habitually hurls, in print > > and elsewhere, against all who disagree with him. If Keel were > > to write articles challenging my ideas, precisely as I have done > > with his, there would be no problem, only healthy, entertaining, > > and (one would hope) ultimately enlightening debate. > > Personal attacks are pointless, counterproductive, and boring. I > > need no lecture from you on that score, since this was precisely > > the point I was making (and apparently you were missing) when I > > raised the issue of Keel's ad hominem excesses. I wish John Keel > > believed, as I do and I presume you do, in rational debate, but I > > simply fail to see by what peculiar logic my criticizing him for > > that makes me morally equivalent to him. Perhaps you could > > explain it to me. > > If, on the other hand, you want to direct your words to Keel, > > which is where they ought to be addressed, I'll gladly give > > you his address. > > Jerry Clark > Dear List: > Wow! Since this topic seems to be getting a little personal, I have > chosen to respond to this message by e-mailing Jerry Clark personally. > Someone on this List was kind enough to give me some helpful advice, and > before I leave this thread permanently and go back to "Lurker" and > "nerve-hit" mode, I just wanted to say a few things (anyone listening?): John, three quick points before we drop the subject: (1) Calling someone else's theories "half-baked" or "paranoid," as I did about Keel's, is well within the accepted parameters of debate and discussion; anyone who follows debates in scholarly journals will have no trouble recognizing either adjective. It is essential to bear in mind that I have written at great length on what I see as the problems with Keel's approach. Responding to such skeptical analysis of one's ideas by calling one's critic a social misfit or a mental case is way beyond the pale. The two are, obviously to me anyway, in no way morally equivalent. (2) If you can't get a copy of my essay on "Paranormal and Occult Theories" (High Strangeness, pp. 367-89, or [in abridged form] The UFO Book, pp. 429-44), I'd be glad to send you a xerox of same, if you'll supply me with your regular mail address. Agree or disagree with what I write there, this is what we ought to be talking about. (3) I have not the slightest doubt that you are a good guy. You have always struck me as thoughtful and articulate. It's just that, in my view, you happen to be wrong on this particular issue, one obviously dear to my heart. Nothing I have said is intended in any way to discourage you from speaking your mind now or in the future. I for one am always interested in what you to have to say. All best, Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 11:34:50 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:14:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 23:41:34 -0700 > From: "Clark Hathaway" <earthwrk@doitnow.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > > Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 12:15:53 -0800 > > From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > Ted: > What Part of my declaration of these constituting MY experiences > did you not understand? Or is it perhaps that your capacity for > comprehension of what you read merely extremely low? > John has his experiences and I have mine as does Paul. > I do NOT believe that it is incumbent upon you, myself or anyone > else to state that any experience is more or less valid than the > next one. This is not a competition here. > There are NO prizes. I cannot speak for Paul, only my perception > of what he was stating ... which by the way appeared far > different to me apparently than it did to you, John and perhaps > more than I care to think about. Perhaps you would be well served > to ponder my remarks as to the emergence of 'Techno Bigotry". > > I am so envious of Paul and Clarke. The depths of their wisdom, and > > the breadths of their vision empower them to declare the true nature > > of poor John Velez's experiences. Such learned men are immune from > > the rabbled protestations of "Sophistry!" > > Bye... Ted.. > Not so fast Ted... > Why is it that I AM seeing no mention of John's professed > education in at least one esoteric organization as well as his > stated 'years long' practice of meditation? > It is NOT my problem if You, John or anyone else for that matter > choose to view my experiences as well as my opinions as personal > attacks. The bottom line Ted is this. If John or anyone else is > going to use their experiences and/or credentials in an effort to > prop-up their opinions as being those with the only validity, > then it is only fair, proper and to be expected that others be > afforded the same right. > Your sarcasm in this matter only serves to display for all to see > that there are components within my views that serve to greatly > threaten your own. Otherwise your reaction would not be so > vitriolic. Notice that I mention Reaction rather than response. > There happens to be a great deal of difference between the two. > Clarke Hathaway Cough, hack, wheeze, "Pheww!" Forgive me, I have been reduced to a roaring quivering mass rocking on the floor. So tempted am I to write a short comedic skit of a poor man succumbing to spasmodic guffaws, struggling to sit at his keyboard as convulsions repeatedly quake his desk scattering his computer equipment about him in a pile. Alas, since it takes this mildly autistic fool over an hour to compose each page of good text, I will pass on the effort. Permit me to say that I cannot find ANY of the claims that Clarke makes about me in his reply in the substance of my letter. Allow me to respond by saying that Clarke's reply portrays my point... Bye... Ted..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 PROJECT-1947: 'Aircraft/UFO Encounters Catalogue' From: Jan Aldrich <jan@CYBERZONE.NET> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:22:07 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:18:22 -0500 Subject: PROJECT-1947: 'Aircraft/UFO Encounters Catalogue' We have just received the latest edition of Dominique Weinstein's 'Aircraft/UFO Encounters Catalogue' from the printers. A small supply is available for sale. The current catalogue contains 920 cases from around the world covering the period 1916 to present. Over a dozen researchers contributed material from hundreds of sources for this catalogue. A significant number of cases involve radar or electromagnetic effects. Many of these cases are not well unknown outside their country of origin. A sample of the catalogue may be viewed at: http://www.iufog.org/project1947/acufoe.htm The cost of the catalogue is $US11.00 postpaid anywhere in the world. Order from: J. L. Aldrich P. O. Box 391 Canterbury, CT 06331, USA --
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:32:45 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:24:40 -0500 Subject: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 21:57:12 -0700 > From: jared@valuserve.com (Andromeda.net- Anderson, Jared) > To: Updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > > From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> > > Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 09:31:09 +0000 > > Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 20:40:49 -0500 > > Subject: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > > I don't know what to msake of Colonel Philip J.Corso and his book > > 'The Day After Roswell', but Corso was recently interviewed in > > the UK-based magazine 'The X-Factor' (issue 25). > > One question put to Corso was: > > Have you seen the Roswell autopsy video ? > > I saw the Roswell footage and I saw some things in it that nobody > > could have known about, so maybe that gives it authenticity, I > > don't know. I lean towards the opinion that it is authentic, but > > I can't really tell you that I'm 100 per cent sure. > > What this says about Corso and Ray Santilli's film I'm not sure. > > Any comments ? > > Philip Mantle. > Have you corresponded with Bob Shell about this new work done by > Theresa Carlson? > What answers have the 2 of you drawn from this research? > Jared. Dear Jared, I have communicated with Bob Shell concerning the recent work by Theresa Carlson. I respect Theresa and her work enormously. What I have to say is that we are hopeful of haveing a 'BEYOND ROSWELL' web site up and running early in l998, a response to Thersa's work should, all being well, be placed on the site. Philip.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:30:27 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:22:39 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] > Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:39:33 EST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> > Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 09:31:09 +0000 > Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 20:40:49 -0500 > Subject: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > > What this says about Corso and Ray Santilli's film I'm not sure. > > Any comments ? > Here's my comment: > Corso and Santilli can claim just about anything and someone > somewhere will take them seriously. > I don't take either of them seriously. > Rebecca > \Dear Rebecca, I can understand why eople would be skeptical of Ray Santilli, but why would the same apply to Colonel Corso? Does he not have all the right military credentials ? Don't get me wrong, there's something here that bothers me, and I can't put my finger on it. It could be that he seems too good to be true. Philip.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:56:27 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:26:09 -0500 Subject: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:39:56 -0500 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Speaking strictly for myself and not for Philip: [snip] > I applaud Theresa for her efforts. She had devoted a lot of time > to this, and I know she is an honest researcher trying to get to > the truth. I just do not agree with her conclusions from the > work she has done. And you are being unbiased here, right? You wouldn't be disagreeing because of your upcoming participation in a CD-ROM based on the Hesemann and Mantle book? How do you explain the blemishes on the legs lining up? Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: "Clarke Hathaway" <earthwrk@doitnow.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:15:37 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:35:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s John Koopmans wrote: > > Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 19:02:30 -0700 > > From: "Clarke Hathaway <earthwrk@doitnow.com> > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > > > Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 02:51:30 -0500 > > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > > From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> > > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > > > >From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com> > > > >Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:42:46 EST > > > >To: updates@globalserve.net > > > >Subject: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > <snippage> > > Hello John and my compliments to the list. > > > We all have scoop marks as well. I could go on here quite a bit > > > about the "physical" aspects of this that have convinced me that > > > something real world, real time, and physical is not only > > > interacting with us, they leave behind evidence on our bodies. > > So do I John, though I believe that you well know that I have a > > decidedly different view of this than yourself. It is not > > incumbant upon me however to attempt to invalidate your version > > of reality. Paul approaches my position with his stated opinion, > > but I don't feel that his view is quite broad enough. > > <much snipage> > > I have an effective modality of dealing with these visitations. I > > really don't give a flying fig for any negative commentary by > > would be detractors. I have something that works and I have > > ceased to play the role of victim. If anyone out there can make > > the same claim, then I congratulate them! > > Clarke Hathaway > Hello Clarke: > I was trying to follow your explanation of what you think happens during > an abduction, but there is not enough to get a better idea of the bigger > picture. Do you have any essays (electronic) that you could share, or > can you point me to any previous posts where you explain it more fully? > >From what I can understand of your explanation, it does seem to make > sense, and I am curious to know more about it. > Thank you in advance > John Koopmans Hello John and my compliments to the list..... All I have to go on in these matters like anyone else including John Valez, is my total experience. That perhaps explains our differing views rather than being a question of sanity as some would like to have it. In my opinion it is extremely important for anyone doing research or inquiry into abduction or any other subject for that matter to go into it with a completely open mind. If entered into with a fixed opinion or summation, one is merely seeking those circumstances that fit their theory. In defense of this DISHONEST practice moreover, these practitioners can be most often observed to resort to exercises of condemnation of any who hold views contrary to their own. I could cite a long list of these types throughout the recent history of ufology/Alien Abduction research, but it really wouldn't add anything to our discussion here. I merely mention it due to some of these self-serving tactics being observed in practice today within this forum. It is an interesting phenomena in itself. When the frontal attacks are shown as being ineffective, what usually occurs are those of a more private nature filled with threats and lies. I have an area on one of my hard drives where such are archived. ;-) Anyway sorry about the digression John.... to continue. :-) I Am not sure that I entirely understand your question entirely. I will assume that you are seeking the whys if not the wherefores. <g> In answer to electronic essays, I must confess yes I have done a bit of writing and that was back in my old FidoNet days. I understand that these are archived at different sites around the web. They are reflective of my thinking during the 1993-1995 period. My ideas and understanding have gone through quite a transformation since then however. I want to take the opportunity here to point out that just because the circumstances exist of one having a website devoted to this or any other subject hardly qualifies them as being an expert or more knowledgeable in these areas as anyone else. If one wishes to truly gauge the credibility and character of an individual who has a group or organization, talk to some of those who are no longer affiliated with that group. An important point to ascertain would be why these people left the group. Was it due to their belief system being different than the founder? Has the founder or the core members attacked the credibility of the former member either publicly or privately. Another question pertinent to this would be, is this an open group or one that is cloistered and subject to a fee or dues ala membership? The reason I mention these things at all is due to personal experience, it is a great concern of mine. During the earlier years of my abduction realization, I was the member of a CE-IV (close encounters of the fourth kind) group conducted by a moderately high profile Abduction Researcher and Doctorate of Psychology in Sacramento, California. The membership was closed to the general public and interested parties other than those who had been treated by the Doctor. This small organization had all of the trappings of a cult. The Doctor was placed upon a pedestal as a 'father' figure and his personal philosophies were strongly fostered. Each meeting was filled with psychological manipulation in many guises to include blatant 'peer pressure tactics' to further the notion of his being the Aliens sole representative upon this planet and the members as constituting components of the human race being above the bulk of their peers.. During each meeting psychic information was sought from the individual members with interpretation by the good Doctor. My adopted role while there was to offer as well as I could a counter-point to his insanity. I AM gratified that in a few cases at least I was successful as seen from the few sincere thank yous that I received. These sorts of endeavors have NO place within honest research in so far as concerns subjects already looked at with a jaundiced eye by those of science. I could go into a long winded dissertation upon this subject with most of it based upon material that I have studied over the years and quite a bit of conjecture. However, I do not feel that this is the proper forum for doing so. Most of the attendees of this list are adherents of the Nuts and Bolts perspective concerning Ufology and Alien Abduction. Introduction of relative esoteric data by way of explanation of certain of these phenomena would likely cause a bit of disruption as it does each time it is presented. The same basic people with vested interest rise up in clamor in a blatant attempt at censorship. The current tactic as can be seen is that any who hold an opposing or otherwise contrary view is subject to having his/her sanity held in question and subject to ridicule. That is unfortunate. This being the case, it is little wonder that the Body Scientific holds the Study of UFOs and Alien Abduction in such contempt. Each time someone offers a fresh perspective, one adherent or other to the prevailing views rises up in loud protest ultimately resorting to underhanded tactics in order to discredit those professing new or different views. Pertinent to what you seem to be asking though, it has been my observation while in the company of quite a few abductees that those in whom I AM satisfied as having genuinely experienced an abduction event display a heightened psychic sensitivity. I suspect that this has much to do with why some experience these things while others do not. My own experiences are literally filled with paranormal occurrences. When the Ant Woman was approaching the back of my van for instance and I found that I couldn't move, there were 'puff-balls' of pale fluorescent light popping on and off in front of me within and without the back of the van. These were marble to golf ball in size. In recollection there was a tenuous quality about them. I seriously doubt that were I capable of moving that I would have been able to grab a hold on one. Those who would detract from my view and label me as being other than sane, hold the view that beings flowing and passing through walls constitute actual physical occurrences. They also take literal in a conventional reality sense that humans can be levitated as well as passed through solid objects as well as many more absolutely fantastic claims. Yet none of these things are demonstrable by any branch of science. They will react with "well, it is alien technology after all" conveniently throwing aside the fact that an alien no matter from where ALSO HAS various immutable physical laws to deal with. This by no means negates or invalidates any abductees experiences however. Universal physical law does not apply in the same manner on other levels of our existence or awareness. Perhaps I shall have to set all of this down within the covers of a book. Sincere Kindest Regards... Clarke Hathaway
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: Roswell Rods From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:46:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:37:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Roswell Rods >From: TotlResrch <TotlResrch@aol.com> [Kal K. Korff] >Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:16:03 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Roswell Rods >>Although not directly part of ufology, this bunch >>of badly seasoned baloney exemplifies what is wrong >>with ufology. People who should know better foisting >>off spurious evidence onto people not equipped to >>evaluate it for themselves. >GREAT ADVICE, Bob. Never thought I'd ever AGREE with you on more >than any one point. That's TWO points we AGREE on now, 1) your >assessment of these unimpressive "Rods" images and 2) your >comments that the Meier photos are fakes. >Now, if only Jim Deardorff would get a clue. >My only question, Bob, is that since you obviously have a very >sound point here, WHEN are you going to "walk your talk" and >APPLY THESE SAME, SELF- PROFESSED STANDARDS AND REASONING to the >Alien Autopsy hoax?? >No need for a reply, it's a rhetorical question, unless you've >changed your stance on the Autopsy ScamTilli. >Sincerely, >Kal Korff Hey Kal, Welcome back! Now we can catch up on lost time, eh? Your question may be rhetorical, but I will answer it anyway. I have become increasingly frustrated by trying to do any serious work on the AA film without any real help from Ray Santilli. I'm still waiting for my "research copy" of the first autopsy on video, promised many months ago. I'm still waiting for the promised opportunity to interview the cameraman. I'm still waiting for a lot of things. However I do not plan to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is still something about this film which has convinced a large number of educated medical people that it is a real dissection of a real body of some sort. So I'm stuck with the feeling that the film must be treated as a document unto itself, divorced from the whole Tentcrest circus. My current assessment is that the film has a slightly better than 50% chance of being real. More information will be posted as available on our new Beyond Roswell web site at: http://beyondroswell.com which will be opening up around January 15th. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 17:07:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 17:07:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:45:53 -0500 To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 23:41:34 -0700 >From: "Clark Hathaway" <earthwrk@doitnow.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 12:15:53 -0800 >> From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >> > Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 19:02:30 -0700 >> > From: "Clarke Hathaway <earthwrk@doitnow.com> >> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >> > > Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 02:51:30 -0500 >> > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> > > From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >> > > >From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com> >> > > >Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:42:46 EST >> > > >To: updates@globalserve.net >> > > >Subject: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >> > > >John Velez wrote: >> ---snippety snip, snip--- >> > I have an effective modality of dealing with these visitations. I >> > really don't give a flying fig for any negative commentary by >> > would be detractors. I have something that works and I have >> > ceased to play the role of victim. If anyone out there can make >> > the same claim, then I congratulate them! >> > Clarke Hathaway >> I am driven uncontrollably to sing the praises of Paul and >> Clarke. They are to be honored for the fruits of their life-long >> studies. Their years of effort and discovery have yeilded unto >> them such an exacting perception of reality that it must be more ><an extreme amount discarded for the sake of brevity> Hi Ted, Clarke, All, I'm not here to 'red cross' for Ted. I have complete confidence that Mr Viens will not only respond to this for himself but far better than I -ever- could. I'm jumping in for a minute because Mr Hathaway has developed a penchant for mentioning my name. I do wonder at the sudden fascination with me however. Clarke's (rapidly becoming typical) response to Ted. >Ted: >What Part of my declaration of these constituting MY experiences >did you not understand? Or is it perhaps that your capacity for >comprehension of what you read merely extremely low? Clarke, you have a tendency to insult/talk down to people. I chose not to respond to your last for that very reason. You are the one who is trying to -ram- your views down others throats, and feels so "threatened" by them that you feel the need to post long resumes' and expositions about yourself and of -your- personal philosophy. Now you jump out of the box raving and snapping ala Dr B! And all of it delivered in the most abrasive and authoritarian sounding "You better listen to me cause -I KNOW-" tone that I've evr heard on this list. You then turn around and accuse people of the very behavior you yourself have introduced. Balls man. Do you realize that you used my name -OVER- twenty times in your original e-mail? Sometimes -three times- in a -two sentence- paragraph! You almost spit my name out like punctuation. Not only that, you got real personal and condescending with me. What's that all about? You expected a response? After the second or third time you addressed a (proclamation) -at- me, I kinda "got the picture" that you were talking to me, and the message that came through even clearer was that you also have a serious hard on for me as well! (It was the 'other' 23 or so uses of my name that gave you away Einstien.) I found it -a bit- redundant. Your incessant, "John this, and John that, and "John you know, and John you shoulds," only served to reveal a thinly disguised anger?/animosity? and it set my 'alarm' off. My response to it was, no response. I figured you're only trying to grab an oportunity to expound your philosophy and point of view so I just ignored all the personal remarks (ie; my "famous temper" and several other comments that were nothing but -personal- and intended to be so) and let your resume/declaration of beliefs that you call a 'response' stand on it's own merits. I believe that Mr Viens review of your post speaks for me as well. And I simply decided to let it stand unanswered. As I have said, Ted wrote you a dead on (and BLISTERING) response to it. I could never in a million years improve upon it in terms of the accuracy of his perceptions or the sheer class with which he said it. Ted told it like it is. I can't improve on it or add to it. The man just, blew his wad and -said it all! <G> >John has his experiences and I have mine as does Paul. >I do NOT believe that it is incumbent upon you, myself or anyone >else to state that any experience is more or less valid than the >next one. This is not a competition here. Clarke, the -only one- who has percieved this thread as a "competition" is you! What's up dude? Nowhere in any of my posts have I ever said or implied that my views were "more valid than anyone elses" Where do you get stuff like that from? The air? >There are NO prizes. I cannot speak for Paul, That's right, no prizes, and you can add me to your shortlist of people you can't speak for, ok? Or is there some percieved hidden meaning in that too? Ted: >> I am so envious of Paul and Clarke. The depths of their wisdom, and >> the breadths of their vision empower them to declare the true nature >> of poor John Velez's experiences. Such learned men are immune from >> the rabbled protestations of "Sophistry!" >> Bye... Ted.. Clarke: >Not so fast Ted... >Why is it that I AM seeing no mention of John's professed >education in at least one esoteric organization as well as his >stated 'years long' practice of meditation? I must take a moment to address this one. Wow! "Professed?" (Calling me a liar now eh?) I am attaching (3) documents just for you Clarke. One is from the United Lodge of Theosophists here in New York, (I blanked out the content simply because it's none of your business,) another is my graduation certificate (reproduced in toto) from an Interfaith Seminary I attended, and the third is from Long Island University. Just FYI, smartass, I was ordained in a ceremony at the Methodist Sanctuary in NY in1985. The certificate is signed by: Rabbi Jos. H Gelberman PhD. Father Giles Spoonhour, Franciscan (Catholic priest) Reverend Jon Mundy, Bishop, Methodist Church of America Swami Devananda, Yogi (Tibetan teachings) Not on the certificate but also instructors were a Shiek, an Oman, a hopi medicine man, and a Hassidic Rabbi that taught us Kabbala on the 'sneak', - after all most of us were goyem! <G> Man, don't ever call me -or even insinuate- that I'm a liar. Unnerstan? You're starting to get real -personal- in your attacks, and I'm just not going to put up with it. >It is NOT my problem if You, John or anyone else for that matter >choose to view my experiences as well as my opinions as personal >attacks. Oh, I beg to differ. It most certainly -is- "your problem." And there is no other way that your comments can be taken. They are insulting, presumptuous, -PREACHY- condescending, and dare I say it,...egotistical. You forget what happened to Dr B when he started attacking people and and forcefully trying cram his 'New Age" religious beliefs down everyones throat don't you. Well you shouldn't 'cause you're starting to sound a lot like him minus the 'paranoia.' Or is that next on the menu? Kettle calls pot black! >The bottom line Ted is this. If John or anyone else is >going to use their experiences and/or credentials in an effort to >prop-up their opinions as being those with the only validity, >then it is only fair, proper and to be expected that others be >afforded the same right. You have the right to jump into any thread at anytime in order to express your views and opinions. It doesn't give you the right to be insulting, condescending or pompous. I wasn't "using" my experiences or my credentials to "prop up" anything! I mentioned certain aspects of my private studies and affiliations -because it was 'germain' to the conversation- and because it -came up- I didn't egotistically volunteer it out of context. Unlike yourself I don't feel the need to "show off" what I know, or post my 'resume' or brag about "what I've done." I haven't felt a need to prove anything to anybody or justify myself to anyone for many long years. See, I've paid my dues. But now lets get to the crux. The very things that you accuse me of, are the motivations behind all of -your- own actions so far in this thread. Your e-mail was a long (and boring) exposition and resume' of your backgound and personal philosophy. _YOU_ are the one who is "using" his "experiences and credentials" to "prop up" your opinion! Are you so very insecure that you feel you need to do that? You seem to have no problem ascribing those motives to me though. Whatever you -think- you know about me is shamefully off target and completely unjustified. Just say what's on your mind man. You don't have to publish a goddam resume to get people to listen to you. And, you don't have to insult and preach down to your peers in order to get them to listen. You draw more flys with honey, yadda yadda. (Sometimes,) the things we say to others are the things we need to hear most ourselves. The next three comments are perfect examples of this axiom. I'll let Clarke speak his inner thoughts. >Your sarcasm in this matter only serves to display for all to see >that there are components within my views that serve to greatly >threaten your own. "Threatened?" Who's "threatened" Clarke? You? >Otherwise your reaction would not be so vitriolic. And that from -the only source of "vitriol"- so far! <G> >Notice that I mention Reaction rather than response. >There happens to be a great deal of difference between the two. That's right Clarke. Dr., heal thyself! You said in your e-mail to me that (in your opinion) my views were "sad." This self exposition that you have provided us with is what -I- consider "sad!" Glad you're feeling better Clarke, be well and take it easy. Rev. John Velez, Interfaith Minister/Counsellor -----and also, S.A.Spec. Senior Addiction Specialist. Addiction Services Agency, City of New York, 1972 I was the -director- of a residential drug free therapeutic community which housed 95 teen-aged residents and 8 full time clinical staff. 1977 Founder of "Second Harvest New York" (first food bank for the needy in NY) I secured large donations of food stuffs from major corporations, got then Mayor Ed Koch to donate a building to us and established a food bank that organisations like the Salvation Army and others who feed the homeless could come to for unlimited free food. 1970 Co-founder Project R.E.T.U.R.N. Foundation NYC. An agency with facilities for drug rehab, battered women and unwed mothers, and a senior citizen center. 1973 Co-founder of first facility to house and treat returning addicted Viet Nam veterans. 1975 Co-founder of the "Court Referral Project" A program I designed and instituted whereby rehab (drug) counselling could be delivered to inmates serving sentences for drug related charges, and allowed for the paroling into the custody of certain rehab agencies any minor or teen-age drug offenders. 1978 Then, one year of printing/graphic art school followed by many years of work as a graphic artist. 1983 Entered seminary for two years of study. 1991-1993 Owned and operated my own music store, Sold guitars amps and drums, and gave lessons to the kids that bought from me. Had to close because of slow economy, nobody was spending. Bad timing. 1995 Most recently, 1 year at Long Island University studying computer graphics. I am currently self-employed. In between I went to seminary, attended classes at the lodge for seven years and managed to meditate twice a day for over seventeen of those years. I am also a member of the US Chess Federation, an amateur astronomer, an oil painter, and I have played the drums for 34 years, and guitar for 17. There's -more- but modesty prevents me,.... <G> See Clarke, anyone can do it, -nothing- about me is "alleged" It's all -very real-. I just don't brag on it like you do. This is the first time in the 2 years I have been a member of this list that I have -ever- mentioned or revealed any of the above mentioned data about myself. I have never "used" it to gain recognition for my "views" That's -you- talking, not me. See Clarke, when you're "for real" you don't have to crow about it, or try to hard sell anyone. I am as -for real- a man as you have probably ever met. That's who and what I am, and what I've done. Next time you go and insinuate that someone is a liar, check your facts first. People can tell by the content of your words and the quality of what comes from you whether you are someone worth listening to. Let them decide, and don't 'push it' or yourself on them. (Or me! Thank you very much.<G>) John --=====================_881723259==_ Content-Type: image/gif; name="LIUcert.gif"; x-mac-type="47494666"; x-mac-creator="4A565752" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="LIUcert.gif" R0lGODlhUgL/AvcAAP//////zP//mf//Zv//M///AP/M///MzP/Mmf/MZv/MM//MAP+Z//+ZzP+Z mf+ZZv+ZM/+ZAP9m//9mzP9mmf9mZv9mM/9mAP8z//8zzP8zmf8zZv8zM/8zAP8A//8AzP8Amf8A Zv8AM/8AAMz//8z/zMz/mcz/Zsz/M8z/AMzM/8zMzMzMmczMZszMM8zMAMyZ/8yZzMyZmcyZZsyZ M8yZAMxm/8xmzMxmmcxmZsxmM8xmAMwz/8wzzMwzmcwzZswzM8wzAMwA/8wAzMwAmcwAZswAM8wA AJn//5n/zJn/mZn/Zpn/M5n/AJnM/5nMzJnMmZnMZpnMM5nMAJmZ/5mZzJmZmZmZZpmZM5mZAJlm /5lmzJlmmZlmZplmM5lmAJkz/5kzzJkzmZkzZpkzM5kzAJkA/5kAzJkAmZkAZpkAM5kAAGb//2b/ zGb/mWb/Zmb/M2b/AGbM/2bMzGbMmWbMZmbMM2bMAGaZ/2aZzGaZmWaZZmaZM2aZAGZm/2ZmzGZm mWZmZmZmM2ZmAGYz/2YzzGYzmWYzZmYzM2YzAGYA/2YAzGYAmWYAZmYAM2YAADP//zP/zDP/mTP/ ZjP/MzP/ADPM/zPMzDPMmTPMZjPMMzPMADOZ/zOZzDOZmTOZZjOZMzOZADNm/zNmzDNmmTNmZjNm 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: Roswell Rods From: TotlResrch <TotlResrch@aol.com> [Kal K. Korff] Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:16:03 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 12:13:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Roswell Rods >Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:19:30 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: ROSWELL RODS In a recent posting, Bob Shell wrote: <snip> >Although not directly part of ufology, this bunch >of badly seasoned baloney exemplifies what is wrong >with ufology. People who should know better foisting >off spurious evidence onto people not equipped to >evaluate it for themselves. GREAT ADVICE, Bob. Never thought I'd ever AGREE with you on more than any one point. That's TWO points we AGREE on now, 1) your assessment of these unimpressive "Rods" images and 2) your comments that the Meier photos are fakes. Now, if only Jim Deardorff would get a clue. My only question, Bob, is that since you obviously have a very sound point here, WHEN are you going to "walk your talk" and APPLY THESE SAME, SELF- PROFESSED STANDARDS AND REASONING to the Alien Autopsy hoax?? No need for a reply, it's a rhetorical question, unless you've changed your stance on the Autopsy ScamTilli. Sincerely, Kal Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 9 Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:36:47 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 11:51:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark and ETH (and ELs) On Mon 8 Dec 1997 John Koopmans wrote ... > Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 17:58:14 -0800 > From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Clark and ETH (and ELs) > [snip] > I have the sense that many experiencers may feel too intimidated > to speak up. The few experiencers who have, have screamed and > shouted on this List on many ocassions. But how many on this List > have actually responded and asked them for more details, > insights, etc. Isn't this what the List is _also_ about? (Am I > wrong Errol?). That is why I try to defend the experiencers' > point of view and sometimes get overly carried away when I feel > someone is either belittleing (sp.?) or insulting them. And that > is why I use John Velez as a perfect example. He has much to say, > but no-one seems to want to listen. Individually, these people > may not have all of the answers, but collectively, they might > have some astounding clues. Talk about collective astounding clues: I don't wanna sound like an ad here, but anyone interested in a large collection of "astounding clues" from experiencers should take a look at Whitley Strieber's recent book, "The Communion Letters". Its a published selection (out of his much larger archive) of letters Strieber received in response to his books (Communion, Breakthrough, etc), in which all sorts of people wrote to Strieber telling of their own experiences. Some to these are truly bizaar (bizaare? bizzaar? whatever). Its a strange world out there folks, either the people or what's happening to them, one way or another. Onward thru' the fog, -Brian Cuthbertson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:34:47 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:22:30 -0500 Subject: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass > Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 21:47:49 -0800 > From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass > Sightings > > Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 05:16:43 -0800 (PST) > > From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass Sighti ngs > > > Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 21:38:29 -0800 > > > From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> > > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass > > > Sightings > <massive snip, if you haven't followed closely, go to ufomind and read > the archives...> > > In case Jim would choose to argue from an informed position, I > leave my following lines... > > > All the estimation and speculation in the world cannot substitute > > > for the real facts and experience. A trip to > > > http://shuttle.nasa.gov and following the links to the reentry > > > profile page will answer these questions far better than I can. > > But if you think the bulk of the observations were made while the > > objects were in an ionizing stage, long before they began to burn > > up, can you not supply us with a ball park estimate of what you > > think their altitude was and their speed relative to orbital > > velocity? [....] Continued reading indicates the short answer is "no." > > But if we both agree that a real object reentered and was viewed > > by few or some or many, and UFOs also were viewed by many at > > about the same time, then there isn't much left for us to debate > > on this incident. > > You have to hand it to those UFO guys -- how easily they can stay > > several jumps ahead of scientific human minds. > Jim, all of the erroneous conclusions you can draw from an > uniformed position on orbital decay will do little to support > your claims. From the time an object kisses the orbit death of > the first wisps of ionoshpere to the point of impact is less than > an hour and less than one quarter of a revolution. Even my > first, off the top of my head, estimate of how much this would be > was excessive by a factor of two. There is not a sharp > demarcation from "ionization" to "burn up" phase of decay. Only > a long, gradual transition. The ionization trail will begin > first and continue until the kinetic energy of the debris can no > longer literally punch electrons off from atmospheric molecules. > After one or two tumbles, the booster will start to break up. It > just can't fly sideways. > Again, the breakup will not be a sudden single event, but > continuing through the decay. As the booster is seared by the > friction, light thin metals will boil off early in the decay > while dense hard objects will burn deep into the atmosphere, > perhaps even to the ground. Hello Ted, That much, from your latest post, sounds reasonable to me, though I have no more expertise in this field than you do. > What do we learn from the many reports coming from British > Columbia and Washington State? Most widespread are the reports > of the eerie contrail with the glittering fairy dust. A clear > indication that the debris was high enough and fast enough to > create an ionization trail throughout this area. As objects > moved from the west to disappear in the east they glowed brighter > and their flaming trails grew longer. Again, just as decaying > debris would. We seem to need some sort of cateogrization of these reports of what is "most" and what is not. Below is my attempt at summarizing how many different reports UFORC received showing 3 different aspects or combinations of the event, with redundancies hopefully removed: 1) Lights (usually 8 or more) in formation, no trail mentioned: 86 + 1 report of 20 more + 1 report of "many" more observing it 2) Long trails (1 or 2 of them), and no lights in formation: 7 3) Both lights in formation and trail(s) behind: 5 The first category might have included observations where trails were seen too, but if so, they were so insignificant in comparison with the formation of lights that they did not warrant inclusioin. An impartial or scientific investigator would not for a minute neglect the primary category: 1). > Most witnesses actually observed the objects for > less than a minute after the first fiery flashes drew their > attention to the sky. During this brief time, there would be > little relative motion between the major pieces. They would > certainly appear to be flying in formation. That was easy to say! Why were the lights still white (8 of them, with a trail behind them) when observed near Spokane (at Nine Mile Falls)? In the report you quoted from earlier, which came from west of Seattle, already all the pieces had appeared to be disintegrating, with orange glows predominating, even in the second mass that became visible. The V-shaped formation of "multiple large lights" was reported by multiple witnesses from the vicinity of the western Washington shore, and then again near Spokane. So if you are hypothesizing that this formation occurred naturally and would not have changed in all that distance to eastern Washington, I'd say Hogwash! The inertia of the relative spinoff velocities of fragmentation that you must postulate created the V formation would have persisted to spread them out of any formation long before they reached the vicinity of Spokane. Some 40 of the reports mentioned the V formation of lights. Since these outnumbered the 7 or so reports that were more indicative of just a reentry event, it behooves you to indicate how such a formation could have come about naturally. Unless you wish to acknowledge that these 40 and more reports represent the UFO events. If you wish the V-formation to have come about naturally, we need a realistic account of the odds that the rocket booster, in fragmenting, would have first spit off a fragment to one side, then to the other, then the first side, then the other, etc., always with a *rearward* component of relative velocity, in fragments of comparable size (comparable brightness) and white in color rather than glowing orange, to create a V-formation of 8 objects, whose relative velocities thereupon ceased so as to allow the V shape to persist for many minutes. Any estimate of mine would result in vanishingly small odds for this. How would you get the odds up much closer to unity? You need to explain the rearward component of relative velocity of the fragmenting pieces, because if the rocket booster were periodically tossing off equal sized fragments with precise timing while rotating, you'd just end up with a line of objects lying athwart the sky, not a V formation. And you'd need to explain how the odds could be high that the timing for each fragmenting piece would be just right, why the last piece or two to fragment wouldn't exhibit a reaction velocity, etc. > In the quotes above > that I have snipped, everywhere that you find anomolous behavior, > I find a reasonable description of burning debris. This must > represent some form of impasse in our dialogue. The specific > details you keep asking for are relatively insignificant in the > broad range of a decaying profile where these observations could > be seen. I see you have not come to grips with any of those reports I summarized that are *totally* inconsistent with the reentry of space junk. That's not using the scientific method, Ted. On the other hand, I include them as well as the likelihood that space junk reentry occurred then also. And we have evidence, starting with Stan Gordon's observation back in 1985, that "unexplained UFO activity in some cases seems to occur at nearly the same time, and in the same general location where observers have reported the passage of a scientifically explainable UFO, such as a bright meteor or a satellite re-entry" (MUFON UFO J. Dec. 85). You have ignored this also; that's not being scientific -- ignoring the evidence. We all know of the thousands of UFO reports where UFOs have paced automobiles and airplanes, and even persons on motorcycles. We know of the one incident in which a UFO once circled around a speeding U.S. missile fired off of California. So what's so hard to believe about a group of UFOs accompanying a rocket-booster re-entry? And at times perhaps changing their formation from a V-shape to two lines of lights, or changing the numbers of them that are made visible, and on occasion causing one of them to zip around the others (as reported) and on another occasion altering direction of the formation? This is but child's play to "them." > I live a rather casual, low income lifestyle. Rather than > vacuously say that the mythical somebody should personaly > interview these witnesses at the spot where they made their > observations, I will make myself available. If anyone or any > organization would care to pay my way to Seattle for a couple of > weeks with some minimal per diem and minor compensation, I would > gladly track down the witness and ask them to recreate this event > for us. I am sure that I could set aside my own conclusions to > ask the simple questions of where were they and what was the path > of these objects as they passed. I could record their > descriptions on tape to expose any bias that could slip into my > questions. Perhaps I would be lucky enough to find those few > witnesses whose events were totally unrelated to the decay of > some Russian booster. Check first with Peter Davenport, of course. But I doubt that he would supply anyone with witnesses' names who wished them to be withheld, especially if he suspected the investigator's mind was made up in advance and that he might verbally harrass any witnesses whose stories contradict the investigator's preconceived notions. However, quite a few persons were willing to give their names in that UFORC report and you could hunt them up; I know one of them whom I might be able to put you in contact with. I notice that Kal Korff has come to your defense. Do you need that? Jim Deardorff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Re: LaPaz's Activities From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:50:29 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:22:23 -0500 Subject: Re: LaPaz's Activities >Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 11:07:11 -0800 >From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: LaPaz's Activities Jan, Most of us know of La Paz's involvement. Am I the only one who recognized the Dos Equis story as journalistic leg pulling???? It was obvious to me that this was intended as a satirical humor piece and I never thought that anyone here would take it as a serious story!! Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 'The Coming of Tan' From: pete@popawheelie.com, Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:37:09 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:25:42 -0500 Subject: 'The Coming of Tan' Received via "alt.alien.visitors" December 9 at 17.16 local time (GMT + 1 hour): If you're looking for a good book about an alien abduction story, check out this web site... http://users.truminds.com/tan It's called "The Coming of Tan" by Riley L. Martin The first 2 chapters are posted on the web site... You may have heard Riley on the Howard Stern Show... Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:42:43 -0500 From: Pete <pete@popawheelie.com> Subject: "The Coming of Tan" heard on The Howard Stern Show... Message-ID: <348D66F3.69E4@truminds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: c549597@showme.missouri.edu [Barbara Becker] Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 17:59:10 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:38:06 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 09:31:09 +0000 > From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: The X-Factor > I don't know what to msake of Colonel Philip J.Corso and his book > 'The Day After Roswell', but Corso was recently interviewed in > the UK-based magazine 'The X-Factor' (issue 25). > One question put to Corso was: > Have you seen the Roswell autopsy video ? > I saw the Roswell footage and I saw some things in it that nobody > could have known about, so maybe that gives it authenticity, I > don't know. I lean towards the opinion that it is authentic, but > I can't really tell you that I'm 100 per cent sure. > What this says about Corso and Ray Santilli's film I'm not sure. > Any comments ? > Philip Mantle. I saw the autopsy film when it was first aired. Couldnt quit laughing. Then I got involved with this list. I did some research at the Library of Congress web site and got a copy of Santilli's copyright. From what I have seen, which is not the actual document but the info on the document, it looks to be in order. Also, Trimark lost the suit against Harder. Someone correct me if Im worng... but I tink the judge said the film was in public domain. Anyone else have any new info Id like to hear it too. Barbara
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:39:08 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:45:18 -0500 Subject: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass > From: TotlResrch <TotlResrch@aol.com> [Kal K. Korff] > Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:03:58 EST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass Sightings > >Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 21:47:49 -0800 > >From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass > > Sightings > [...] > It is my personal opinion, for what it's worth, that you're > wasting your time with Jim Deardorff. But I'm afraid your opinion's not worth anything, Kal. And I hope this quick response to your diatribe is not construed as contributing to your rehabilitation. > After all, this is a man > who believes in the Talmud Immanuel, (Billy Meier's version of > the Bible and "last testament" of Christ) .. Having studied the Talmud Jmmanuel (TJ) for over ten years, I indeed have noted several hundred reasons for believing it to be the real thing and no hoax. However, in the TJ, Immanuel is nowhere referred to as "Christ." You must have some fascination with the TJ, to bring it up here on a UFO list. I've briefly responded here to your similar diatribe before, but you did not take notice: Any interested reader is to be referred to my refutations of Korff's allegations concerning the TJ posted within the website of Jeroen Jansen: http://users.bart.nl/~edzmath/access.htm (see under chap. 2). In there I refute the 37 false or unsupported claims, misleading impressions, innuendos and just plain errors you managed to squeeze into just 7 pages of your 1995 book, concerning the TJ. A lot of them came from claims of one other, which you just repeated and obviously did not check out for yourself. The rest of your book is similarly riddled with disinformation, as indicated by the rest of Jeroen's website presentation, to which more could be added. > and blinbdly believes Meier in general .. In the past 13 years I've indeed studied what Wendelle Stevens, Lee & Brit Elders, Gary Kinder and others have learned of Meier's experiences from their timely investigations, and are aware of the many supportive statements by first-hand and secondary witnesses that you chose to omit from your book. Also, I've been over there, met the man, and interviewed a few of the secondary witnesses myself. Nothing blind about that. When you went there under cover of disguise and alias, however, it was with the agenda of getting whatever info and disinfo you could that would aid in your writing a book debunking the case -- your 1981 booklet that tried to do the same have made your long-held prejudices clear. > ..AND thinks that Joseph Smith's "angel" Moroni was a space alien!! That seems more probable to me than that he was an angel from heaven. > Regarding Deardorff's activities on Meier, they are > shameful...but consistent. > He believes in Meier's photos as being "authentic" for which > there are no original negatives.. Meier's photos in 1975-1976 were all taken on positive slide transparencies. So no negatives. I do believe he still has quite a few of the originals of the slide transparencies; Stevens still has some 40 internegatives (next generation) made from these originals. The interested reader may visit Jansen's website to learn what a sham analysis Korff's book makes of Meier's UFO photos. > .. which is also true for Meier's > "Talmud". There's no original scroll or document for that either, > but this never stopped Jim from endorsing it anyway. One works with the best material available. In the case of the TJ, it is only a translation and an editing away from its original, which was apparently destroyed by authorities for obvious reasons relating to their heresies. In the case of the New Testament Gospels, their originals, which actually appear to have stemmed from the TJ, do not date back further than the 4th and 5th centuries, with a few fragments going back to the 2nd and 3rd centuries. They are actually not just a translation away, but also many transcriptions away in addition. > Jim STILL has yet to tell the ENTIRE world HOW one can > "authenticate" (scientifically, as opposed to > pseudo-scientifically) ANY photo without original negatives. I > "psychically" predict he will continue to decline to do so. One can go to the best film available, which was 2nd generation for what Wendelle Stevens holds, and note all the points indicating it could not have been hoaxed by any but the most extraordinary means seemingly unavailable to a man with only one hand, with no known accomplices to any hoax, and with far insufficient funds to have paid or bribed others to try to do so with equipment available in 1974 or 1975. It doesn't require original film to indicate certain undeniable features, such as the foreground being in shade around sunset while the UFO farther away is in sunlight, etc. Those are the very features Korff's book omits any mention of. But ultimately the other witnesses are important, and it is inexcusable that Korff would fail to mention in his book that several adult witnesses (known and named) had a daytime sighting of a UFO after Meier told them when and where to wait and look, which UFO looked just as in certain of Meier's photos. > The truth is, Deardorff can't, and I have no idea whether he > HONESTLY knows better or is just plain "stupid" or is a "less > informed individual" to use two phrases Billy Meier (whom > Deardorff considers to be a PROPHET, just like Meier says he is!) > himself often throws around. [...] I guess Meier doesn't have to worry about being sued for having called Korff a liar! Meier speaks it as he sees it. One of Meier's ETs told him he was the prophet of the new age. Contactees and abductees tend to believe what their aliens have told them; ufologists are under no obligation to do so. Jim Deardorff Search for other documents from or mentioning: deardorj | totlresrch |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:01:02 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:47:13 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:30:27 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:22:39 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > I can understand why eople would be skeptical of Ray Santilli, > but why would the same apply to Colonel Corso? Does he not have > all the right military credentials ? Don't get me wrong, there's > something here that bothers me, and I can't put my finger on it. > It could be that he seems too good to be true. Corso CLAIMS to have the right military credentials. That is quite different from actually having them. Be skeptical. Check some of the places Corso claims to have gone and some of the people that he claimed to meet with. Not only were some of him meetings an impossibility but he doesn't get people's names or job descriptions correct. Sorry I can't go into more detail at this time. Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: jpeterson@polaristel.net [Candy Peterson] Date: Tue, 9 Dec 97 18:44:02 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:50:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:15:37 -0700 >From: "Clarke Hathaway" <earthwrk@doitnow.com> >To: john.koopmans@sympatico.ca, updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >> <snippage> >In my opinion it is extremely important for anyone doing research >or inquiry into abduction or any other subject for that matter to >go into it with a completely open mind. If entered into with a >fixed opinion or summation, one is merely seeking those >circumstances that fit their theory. <snip> >Those who would detract from my view and label me as being other >than sane, hold the view that beings flowing and passing through >walls constitute actual physical occurrences. They also take >literal in a conventional reality sense that humans can be >levitated as well as passed through solid objects <snip> Doesn't it seem likely that the *windows* -- which are reportedly preferred by the "abductors" as the passageway out of the house -- would be the temporarily altered or de-materialized physical substances, rather than the beings or the humans? Inanimate, single-substance plane surfaces versus complex living organisms? >Perhaps I shall have to set all of this down within the covers of >a book. Just be sure "to go into it with a completely open mind." After all, "it is extremely important" [See para. one, above. ;) ] >Clarke Hathaway --Candy Peterson, still asking experiencers and researchers for information about their attempts to catch the abductors in the act with cameras or other recording devices. *--> Is there *no*one* out there doing this, successfully or not? <--* Reply here, or send to: jpeterson@polaristel.net Minnesota MUFON Web Page <http://www.wavefront.com/~jhenry/index.html> Search for other documents from or mentioning: jpeterson | earthwrk |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Re: From The "XX Files": The "Real" Truth... From: Jim Griebel <71541.2124@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:52:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:50:59 -0500 Subject: Re: From The "XX Files": The "Real" Truth... >From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 13:05:13 +0200 >Subject: From The "XX Files": The "Real" Truth About "Aliens" In The U.S.A. >Found at: >http://www.latinolink.com/opinion/opinion97/0628OSPE.HTM >From the "XX Files": The "Real" Truth about "Aliens" in the U.S.A. You know, I almost wrote a long, nasty reply to this until I realized that it's probably a gag: "Dos Equis" is a Mexican beer popular in parts of the U. S. Search for other documents from or mentioning: 71541.2124 |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Theresa <Tcarlson1@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:31:16 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:58:08 -0500 Subject: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:39:56 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso Dear Bob, >Yes, Theresa sent me her overlays a while ago. She has >demonstrated that if you adjust size and angle it is possible to >make the upper outline of the left thighs line up in images from >the two autopsies. But when you do this "manipulation" (Theresa >objects to my use of that word), then NOTHING else in the images >lines up, not even the lower outline of the same thigh. For some strange reason, you seem to be the only one that didn't notice that this particular frame from first autopsy has the object's axis rotated differently. Everyone else figured that out and went and captured stills that were at the proper rotation and found that way more than just the left thigh lines up. The overlay you received was created to show that the bodies were on both on their backs. But it made people curious and they went and checked. Bob, did you capture frames and do your own overlays? I know you weren't part of the peer group, but I still suggest that you you do that anyways. I have no doubt that other people will. There are frames in the released footage that need no rotation of the frames to see the matches. I just happened to like that frame. As far as resizing, it's a little more than just resizing it to fit the "other" body. The frame that Mark sent me is an odd size, probably because it was cropped, printed, scanned etc.. But we have a scale to that first autopsy still. Other items that can be matched to objects in the released autopsy appear in the still. The instrument tray, some of the instruments on that tray, the autoclave and the pan on top of it in the background. You see there were some constants there to work with. You can call it manipulation, but it isn't done haphazardly. A lot of the things that seem to be bothering you about my work I already explained on my video presentation. I simply couldn't afford to make a bunch of videos. It was quite expensive as it was. (And I still have one daughter to put through college.) Since you had already dismissed the preview without checking into it yourself, I didn't see any use in sending you any more. I wish I could afford it though. I explain some of the difficulties and limitations of working with 2D images of 3D objects. Some things that are helpful for people that aren't familiar with image analysis such as yourself. Now, even if you do all this and you still say that only the left thighs are a match, how do you justify those matching? You stated in November, 1995 that the left femur on SUE was broken and the lump there was swelling from. You stated that your medical professionals confirmed this. So, both bodies have broken femurs and both swelled the same? Both have a lack of bruising in the inner thigh area where said swelling appears? Are these the same medical professionals that look at it and say that it looks like a real body? And that's not all. If you don't line up the bodies, there are blemishes on both that are in the same areas and the same shape. How? We can't say that they both sustained the same injuries. SUE's right leg is half gone and SALLI's appear to be pretty much intact. >I have talked personally to everyone who is known to have seen >both autopsies. Every one of them stresses differences in the >bodies rather than similarities. Since Philip is one of those >people, perhaps he would care to comment on his own impressions >of the similarities/differences of the two bodies. How observant were those people that saw the first autopsy? I have a message from you that you quote Philip M. as saying that the body in the first autopsy was "shriveled up like a raisin". No matter what way I look at this still from the first autopsy, I can't describe it in anything like those terms. If your counter is that he was confused about the first autopsy and the tent footage, go back to my first question as it is even more relevant in that case, how observant were the people that were allowed to look at this? If they couldn't keep the different footages straight, don't expect them to keep different bodies straight. The similarities in the two bodies are just an interesting aside for me tho. What convinced me was the inconsistencies in the "blood" marks in the footage. I can not conceive of any way this could have occurred in a real autopsy. Why haven't you addressed this instead of beating on some body comparisons? Complaining about the overlays may get you a lot of attention but the real story is in the released autopsy. These things people can look up for themselves on the copies of the videos they already have. This is what convinced me, and in the end is what will probably convince most. Ray Santilli has already given me his "explanation" or "best guess" or what ever it was. Do you have an explanation also? I know that you have a CD to sell and that this is probably a bad time for you to have to look at things objectively. I have offered this information as evidence not proof, as I already stated. Proof is up to each individual, but they should have as much information as possible to make that decision. Early on in this saga, Ray Santilli offered some photocopies of some labels alleged to be on the autopsy film cans. Those labels were studied and researched. Mr. Rob Irving did excellent research on them, and I double checked his work on my own. Will you be offering the information on that research on your version of the CD? The camera man's tale doesn't work. Many points there, will you be including those? If you really want people to make up their own minds about this, give them ALL of the information. You have the opportunity to make a difference, and maybe even set a precedence in this messed up field. Please? Pretty please, Bob? Regards, Theresa Carlson tcarlson1@Compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 ASP-FQA: Sleep Paralysis, the Frequently From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 22:55:51 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 03:00:42 -0500 Subject: ASP-FQA: Sleep Paralysis, the Frequently ASP-FQA: Sleep Paralysis, the Frequently Questioned Answer Skeptics often use 'sleep paralysis' to explain (or explain away) Alien Abductions, Old Hag Attacks and other paranormal phenomena. How realistic is this? Q. What is Sleep Paralysis? During REM-sleep [Rapid-Eye Movement or dream sleep], the brain sends out a signal immobilizing the body so that we do not act out our dreams. That is sleep paralysis. Everyone experiences it several times a night, whenever they enter a period of REM sleep, about every 90 minutes. Q. Well, okay, but we're usually not aware of all these episodes of sleep paralysis. Precisely! It's the presence of *Awareness* during Sleep Paralysis [ASP] that makes a difference. Q. ASP? Could you be a little more specific? Have you ever found yourself lying fully conscious or in a dreamlike state, unable to move or cry out, while perhaps experiencing auditory or visual phenomena? If so, you have experienced Awareness during Sleep Paralysis [ASP]. ASP experiencers often feel intense fear and may even believe that they are dying. Experiencers often sense the presence of an unseen, malevolent being. An episode of ASP can occur while the body sleeps in any position, but it is much more likely while sleeping on one's back. Often experiencers feel the pressure of a crushing weight on their chest as if being pushed downward into the bed. A few sense a what seems to be a phantom being sitting on their chest. They may be unable to feel the breathing process continue, but those who see their chest can see it continue to inhale and exhale --- they just don't feel it as the body has gone to sleep while the consciousness remains alert despite reduced sensory input from the body. Q. How can Sleep Paralysis be used to explain Alien Abductions, Old Hag Attacks and other paranormal experiences? Sleep Paralysis *can't* explain any of these or other anomalous experiences. Since everyone experiences sleep paralysis, it does not differentiate between those who report Alien Abductions Experiences, Old Hag Attacks, Incubi/Succubi Visitations, Lucid Dream Events or Out-of-Body Experiences, and those who don't report these unusual experiences. What *does* differentiate between experiencers and non-experiencers is that experiencers report Awareness during Sleep Paralysis. Q. How does this make a difference? Someone for whom the Awareness is more immediate, more significant, than the feelings of bodily immobility may take control of the situation and aim for a more positive outcome. The experience of bodily immobility may become a gateway to a lucid dream or out-of-body experience. Q. What about people who believe they are being abducted by aliens? How do they turn the situation toward a more positive outcome? Abduction researcher, Ann Druffel, found numerous abductees who warded off an impending abduction or aborted an abduction in the early stages. Interestingly enough, the techniques these abductees used are the same as those used by others to ward off visitations by entities not perceived as being aliens but as demons, the old hag or whatever. Q. What are these techniques? They range from attempting to move a finger or a toe (in order to end the paralysis and, hence, the experience), to invoking the name of a spiritual entity. Q. How can I learn more? A lengthy file on the subject of responding constructively when Aware during and episode of Sleep Paralysis, Respond.txt, is available from ASP-L, the Awareness during Sleep Paralysis mailing list. To obtain the file send an email msg with the command 'Get-Respond.txt' (without quotes, but with the file extension) in the SUBJECT: field to: nightflyer@mindspring.com <====================================================================> ASP-L is a mailing list for the discussion of Awareness during Sleep Paralysis [ASP] and experiences with which it has been associated: Lucid Dreaming, Out-of-Body Experiencing, Alien Abductions, Old Hag Attacks and Supernatural assaults such as the Incubus/Succubus assault. To subscribe to the list, send the word "Subscribe" (without quotes) in the SUBJECT: field of your msg to the same address. ****** ASP-L is a service of the Trionic Research Institute, http://www.trionica.com Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com> List Moderator
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: DevereuxP <DevereuxP@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:33:09 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 03:24:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s Dear List: John Velez supplied a forceful - if not intemperate - second epistle on the status of his alien abduction experiences, which he insists are physically real events. He deeply resents my observations. I will make just the following points: Dear John, * John, one of the reasons you gave for distinguishing what you believe to be alien abductions from out-of-body experiences was that you never saw your physical body in bed when you were 'out'. I pointed out to you that many an OOBE experient/ astral traveller has reported that when looking back at the bed during an OOBE, it appeared to be empty. That remains a fact despite your ire. * There are techniques for determining whether you are in an OOBE state or not. But as you are having physically real abductions,you won't need that knowledge. * The "pattern" I was mentioning was to do with the *interpretation* of the experience, not the experience itself - you picked up the "alien abduction" interpretative pattern or frame of reference from reading Hopkins' book. The experience itself, which you did indeed already know about, is as old as human consciousness. I can show you prehistoric rock art in southern Africa that depicts the experience. To this day, the !Kung of the Kalahari know of it. They call it "kia" and it occurs as a result of their trance dances. They are not being abducted by physical aliens in physical craft. What we now call the alien abduction exprience was and is known to the human race in many guises and from all time. The alien abduction frame is only the latest literalist interpretation. The experience is old, John. The alien abduction intepretation is only a recent obfuscation. * I was not trying to psychoanalyse you! I'm sorry of that's how it came across, but I would point out that I specifically said that my comments were based *on what you said* in your first posting on this topic. According to that, you have had OOBEs since childhood, and you further have indulged in meditative and occult exercises. You are therefore prone to these types of experiences, and your history is typical. Unless you are lying, of course, in which case I withdraw my observations. * Putting in "<G>" does not make your image of shooting me in the head with your pistol any less ugly. But it did persuade me to now fervently hope that you are indeed actually being abducted by physically real aliens, and that next time they don't bother to bring you back. *<G> Paul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Au revoir From: DevereuxP <DevereuxP@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:56:06 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 03:42:35 -0500 Subject: Au revoir Dear List, My stirring of the pot has certainly brought forth a lot of froth and bubbles! As this will be my last statement on this list for a while, and perhaps for ever, I trust you will allow me to leave you with the main points I was trying to make, lest they be lost amid all the kerfuffle. They were modest enough. * FOLKLORE. I was not saying that the UFO event, whatever it is, is folklore. I was saying that ufology is comprised of folklore, and we ought to recognise that. The folklore might well point to a real phenomenon - or, more likely, a set of differing occurrences that get lumped together under the umbrella of "UFO" - in the manner indicated by my "Old Bill" folktale, but is unlikely to be literally true. It is important to become aware that most versions (at least) of the ETH are folklore - and that is so even if it turns out that things-seen-in-the-sky are physically real craft. If we are not aware that the nature of ufology, the human penumbra surrounding the UFO enigma, is essentially folklore, we get seduced into belief systems and waste years, decades, going down conceptual cul-de-sacs. It is clear from the generally hostile response that has met this modest observation that this is a real issue. It's a problem. After 50 years, we should perhaps more actively and consciously address it. It is such a problem that even people like Jerry Clark, who dismisses the observation of the presence of folklore in ufology as of no value, is a victim of it too. Invisible folklore can damage your understanding. Visible folklore can perhaps be used to reach greater understanding. *THE ETH. As ufology has now turned 50, I suggested that it might be a good idea if we did a stock-take of ufological assumptions, and especially of the ETH as it has been unproductive and slippery over the course of that half-century. I suggested that it should stay on the table as an option for explaining things-seen-in-the-sky, but that perhaps we should lessen the mental energy that goes into it. I called for a deepening and widening of thinking within ufology that did not rely so heavily on the ETH, and one way of doing that was to put the ETH aside for a while, as an experiment. I further pointed out that there was not, in any case, such a thing as the ETH, and that it amounted more to a motif. Its insidious nature is such that we do not always notice how it drives apparently other aspects of ufology. (For example, government UFO conspiracies are subjects in their own right within ufology, but they revolve around the issue as to whether the government is covering up alien bodies, craft and technology. This strand of ufological research is therefore *informed* by the ET motif. Another example would be the discussions about the "alien autopsy" footage: the technical matters concerning the age of film stock, types of suits and equipment used by the characters shown on the film, the arts of Special FX model making, etc. are not in themselves anything to do with the ETH, but they revolve around the question as to whether or not a real alien body was involved, whether or not an alien flier had been obtained from a crashed saucer by the government decades ago.) I offered this suggestion in order to enhance ufological thinking, and did not presume to state what UFOs were. I assure you I did all this in good faith, and it is false characterisation to make me out to be "out to lunch", "bombastic" and all the other names I have been called. If a suggestion that we take stock, and put less reliance in one particular explanation, is met with such hostility, how can the subject area move forward? If people like Jerry Clark find themselves unable to come out from behind their emotional barricades, fruitful discussion cannot even begin. I am particularly disappointed that Jerry could not respond in the manner of a scholar and take part in some model-building, at least in the spirit of experiment. But he is so far away from such a possibility that he actually denied that the ETH still dominates ufology in one form or another. I therefore attempted to move this disagreement outside the scope of mere opinion, and presented a 100-sample tester of this list, UpDates. The result of this indicated that the majority of postings were concerned in one way or another with the ET motif. This was not my opinion but a methodological demonstration. It can be repeated by Jerry Clark or anyone else. Yet Clark refused to accept the result, and continued to make his denials. Jerry did make the point that ETs should not be confused with aliens, and that they could be dimensional as well as spatially extra-terrestrial. I accept this, but we are still dealing with the hypothesis that physically real non-humans in physically real craft are involved. This is a rose by any other name. *ALIEN ABDUCTIONS. I have argued that the literature in a range of other areas of human experience, such as lucid dreaming (especially), sleep paralysis (to some extent - it is a precondition of a certain state of consciousness), ecsomatic or out-of-body travel, shamanic traditions of spirit flight, narcolepsy, and other conditions, can leave no doubt in the minds of anyone who studies them that the same class or group of experiences are involved. I have had what I took to be OOBEs, and I am actively and experientially studying lucid dream research. In the course of that research, using carefully developed techniques, we successfully had an experiment in which I was able to approach within 20 feet of what appeared to me to be a flesh-and-blood alien (if aliens have blood!) while what I call waking consciousness was replaced by another mental reality, another sensorium, of equal realism. Jerry Clark claimed that this was anticlimatic, and of no relevance to the abduction exprience. It is difficult to credit such an attitude in any serious researcher, let alone a man who claims to be an agnostic with regard to alien abductions. His claim and his behaviour do not match, and I made it clear that I consider him an apologist for a literal interpretation of the alien abduction experience, and not an agnostic. When the truth of all this comes out, I will not let him forget his stance, and I put him on notice of that here and now. Whatever one's beliefs about alien abductions, to not merely dismiss but to angrily abuse me for the information I impart means that there can be no serious discussion concerning the alien abduction experience within the confines of ufology as it currently exists, if Updates is a fair cross-section of ufological thinking. I specifically left my views open about the aliens encountered in this profound, bizarre and important experience - this is because I do not (yet, at any rate) know their nature, though I have some ideas. The nature of the experience and the aliens encountered need and deserve intense study, and that is beginning to happen - but not inside ufology itself. We do not understand the nature of the experience, but of one thing I am certain - it is a mental reality situation, not a physical one (though it might, possibly, have physical side effects). I am therefore not debunking the experience (indeed not, I am fascinated by it and suspect it holds great teachings for and about us), but I am trying to get at the experience without the hindrance of labels such as alien abductions (or, for that matter, OOBEs - a more useful interpretation, but an interpretation nontheless). I am just asking that we try to understand what is happening, and I am further saying that enough literature and research already exists to at least determine that we are dealing with a mental situation (and I mean neurological wiring, not merely "psychological" as some critics have complained on this list) - even though we do not yet know for sure what lies beyond that mental gateway. If people are not acting from a belief posture, but a genuinely investigative one, there should be no antagonism towards what I am suggesting. Especially as research can show my viewpoint to be backed up by powerful evidence. It seems, however, judging by the main response on this list (but thank you for the more thoughtful postings), that an investigative posture does not exist. Only postings that support a favoured view can be tolerated, it seems. * GENERAL. Jerry Clark, who has been the most vociferous in these exchanges, stated that my work does not figure in the references of the major debunkers such as Phil Klass. This is because I am not a debunker, and I am saddened that Clark is unable to make the distinction. I do, however, feel that those of us within ufology do need to take more stock of where we are going, make visible assumptions and attitudes that may currently be transparent to us, and to try to broaden and deepen our field. But that brings me back to where I came in. In the exchanges of the past weeks and months, I have become conscious that a relatively small number of us have been hogging the cyberwaves, so to speak. I apologise for my part in that. My only defence is that I have stayed silent for long periods when others were discussing other matters, and I chipped in this time - and then, really, unintentionally - first because of a point made regarding folklore, a subject I am published on and can offer some opinion on, and then because I thought I could make a difference by suggesting some fresh avenues that might prove fruitful. I must declare that I have never experienced such a torrent of abuse or sarcasm for my efforts, however imperfectly I may have carried them out. The silent majority of you out there in list-land will have to decide what kind of ufology you want. As it stands, as far as the alien abduction theme goes, the classic experience, Betty and Barney Hill's interrupted journey, involves what we are to take to be an encounter of two ordinary people with a physically real alien craft and occupants, which traversed unknown interstellar reaches or inter-dimensional warps, with a technology beyond our capability and possibly beyond our imagination, which then used equally magical technology to abduct these human beings, in order to ask questions like: "What is a vegetable?" If this type of interpretation satisfies you, then so be it. If it does not, then you might find that you will have to forego being silent in order to help fashion a ufology more worthy of the enigma involved. That will also necessitate going outside the literature that currently gets labelled "ufological". Anyway, enough. Thank you for allowing me to re-iterate my position. Now it only remains for me to grant Jerry Clark his Christmas wish, and to "get out of the kitchen". I am travelling for the next few months, so would be unable to to take part in discussions on Updates in any case, so I am asking Errol to unsubscribe me - for the time being at least. I thank him for his sterling service in maintaining this list. Some of my travels involve further practical research on the alien abduction experience, with workers and laboratories in different parts of the world. So, though I am leaving this particular kitchen, I'm certainly still cookin', let there be no doubt about that. My best wishes to all of you for a happy holiday season. From your legal alien in the USA, Au revoir. Paul Devereux
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:48:35 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:53:01 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] > Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:01:02 EST > Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:47:13 -0500 > Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> > Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:30:27 +0000 > Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:22:39 -0500 > Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > > I can understand why eople would be skeptical of Ray Santilli, > > but why would the same apply to Colonel Corso? Does he not have > > all the right military credentials ? Don't get me wrong, there's > > something here that bothers me, and I can't put my finger on it. > > It could be that he seems too good to be true. > Corso CLAIMS to have the right military credentials. That is > quite different from actually having them. > Be skeptical. Check some of the places Corso claims to have gone > and some of the people that he claimed to meet with. Not only > were some of him meetings an impossibility but he doesn't get > people's names or job descriptions correct. > Sorry I can't go into more detail at this time. > Rebecca Rebecca this is a rather tall claim here. Please provide more information about Corso's "non-military" record as it becomes available to you. Jared.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Sunday: US Discovery Channel Area 51 show From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:48:48 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:46:48 -0500 Subject: Sunday: US Discovery Channel Area 51 show 10. December 1997 02.47.40 Message From: campbell@ufomind.com,Internet Subject: UFOMIND: Coming this Sunday: Discovery Channel Area 51 show To: Stig Agermose ufomind@lists.best.com,Internet An Area 51 show will air on the Discovery Channel this Sunday.... Found at: http://www.discovery.com/diginets/smartviewer/episode/27/30142098.html Discovery Sunday: Inside Area 51 A look at top secret black aircraft, covert military bases that don't exist on FAA or US Geological Survey maps, strange conspiracy theories, accusations of alien autopsies, and other covert operations. Air Time(s) Eastern/Pacific Time: DSC - 14 Dec 1997 - 10:00 PM DSC - 14 Dec 1997 - 02:00 AM DSC - 21 Dec 1997 - 05:00 PM [ Via covertboy@webtv.net ] +--------------------------------------------------------------- | UFOMIND MAILING LIST - Supporting the Ufomind/PsiSpy Website | http://www.ufomind.com/misc/ - Glenn Campbell, Moderator | "unsubscribe"/"subsingle" to: ufomind-request@lists.best.com | Submissions to: ufomind@lists.best.com | | RELEVANCE OF THIS MESSAGE: Area 51 +--------------------------------------------------------------- Search for other documents from or mentioning: stig_agermose | campbell
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Year Old Data Used To Explain Seattle Sightings From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:55:59 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:48:11 -0500 Subject: Year Old Data Used To Explain Seattle Sightings [Begin RFC-822 message.] From: authority@webtv.net Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:38:04 -0700 To: UASR@mylist.net Subject: Year old data used to explain Nov.14th Seattle incident The Norad object 25047 tracked on software, being an object expected to decay in space, was tracked for Nov. 14th expected to pass just north of Seattle at around 9PM Pacific time. That it did. Reports on the internet quoted a release from Peterson Air Force Base, Colorado, showing that the space junk was expected from Russian space debris on Nov.16th, instead of Nov.17th. This internet story was implying that the space debris story of sightings over Seattle on Nov. 14th were bogus because this Peterson report said the stuff was expected on the 16th. The news release from Peterson was from 1996, not 1997. It was a year old. Ted Viens reported on OVNI BRASIL and quoted the exact Peterson Air Force Base report. NEWS RELEASE -- Directorate of Public Affairs -- U.S. Space Command - Peterson Air Force Base, CO. -- Release #41-96 - November 29, 1996 --Russian Mars '96 spacecraft came down on Nov. 16th instead of Nov.17th as earlier reported. (Notice the date of release is 1996 not 1997) This year old news release was used to show confusion at Norad or at Peterson implying that the Seattle incident did not include space junk. Hey, maybe many things were sighted going west to east over Washington State on November 14th, but mistrust of government information should not include using year old data as current data. Doc in Phoenix [End RFC-822 message.] Search for other documents from or mentioning: stig_agermose |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Re: UFO tracking predictions From: "Mark Pilkington" <markp@syzygy.co.uk> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:14:42 -0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:50:35 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO tracking predictions -----Original Message----- From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> To: updates@globalserve.net <updates@globalserve.net> Date: 09 December 1997 14:09 Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO tracking predictions >From: "Rob Bull" <RAB@cadcentre.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO tracking predictions >Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 11:52:00 GMT > >Jennifer/Joel/Brian, >I asked Roy Dutton for help with my first UFO 'case' in early 1994. >I gave him a location, a time and a date, and he sent me back >some graphs. Sure enough, he was able to show that 'my' UFO >was 'very close' to the UFO 'predicted' by his graphs. >Trouble was, his graphs showed a tightly packed set of curves, >printed to a very coarse scale on a line printer. It would be very >difficult for a UFO sighting NOT to appear 'close' to one of the curves. >snip< >Rob Bull I'll agree with Rob here, though I've only seen Dutton's material presented by ICUFOS, a Irish group I saw in Dublin Ireland, who also have some, er, unorthodox ideas, even by ufology's standards. (See Dave Walsh's Blather for a fuller report http://www.nua.ie/blather/archives/issue1no28.html) Using Dutton's charts this group are predicting UFO appearances over Dublin on December 14th, which of course just happens to coincide with the Geminid meteor shower. Another of their predicted dates, earlier in the year just happened to coincide with the Lyrid shower on April 21st. Now maybe much of this data comes from misinterpreting Dutton's work, but they claim that these are drop off points for huge motherships. It seems to me they might be marking something somewhat more conventional! Mark Pilkington Magonia Online http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk ----------------------------------------------------------- Never before have so few been in a position to make fools, maniacs, or criminals of so many. Aldous Huxley 1952
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:56:18 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:52:55 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] > Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:01:02 EST > Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:47:13 -0500 > Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Corso CLAIMS to have the right military credentials. That is >quite different from actually having them. >Be skeptical. Check some of the places Corso claims to have gone >and some of the people that he claimed to meet with. Not only >were some of him meetings an impossibility but he doesn't get >people's names or job descriptions correct. >Sorry I can't go into more detail at this time. You might want to give better hints than that. That the book he co-authored is filled with errors is nothing new. My understanding is that the manner in which the book was handled by Birnes and the publisher is resulting in some sort of legal action, which won't help its credibility too much. But I think that it can be shown that Corse served in the Miliary, and was well thought of by many on the conservative/anti-communist side of the political spectrum. He testified before Congress on the issue of Korean POWs and that at least lends some credibility to his background. I think that we can be skeptical of many of the facets in his book, and that may prejudice out entire view of his allegations. But without knowing what Corso's notes contained, it is impossible to determine how much of the story that is told is from Corso, and how much was "filler" created by Birnes. I am indeed skeptical of many issues raised by the book, but I'm not sure his credentials should be called into question. On the other hand, if you've got the goods on him, perhaps we need to begin an effort now to make sure he doesn't get buried at National Cemetary . . . . . . <g> Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:13:16 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:59:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >From: jpeterson@polaristel.net [Candy Peterson] >Date: Tue, 9 Dec 97 18:44:02 PST >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > --Candy Peterson, still asking experiencers and researchers for > information about their attempts to catch the abductors in the act > with cameras or other recording devices. > *--> Is there *no*one* out there doing this, successfully or not? <--* Katharina Wilson did it. See her results at the alien jigsaw website. http://www.alienjigsaw.com/videotap.html Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Re: LaPaz's Activities From: Ktperehwon <Ktperehwon@aol.com> [Karl T. Pflock] Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:52:44 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:05:58 -0500 Subject: Re: LaPaz's Activities >Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 11:07:11 -0800 >From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: LaPaz's Activities Greetings Jan & UpDates Addicts: >To me the real history of UFOs is very interesting without the >conspiracy theories of people with other axes to grind and >without the anonymous "inside" informants who can never supply >any credible and creditable evidence or support. Bravo, Jan! One of the persistent myths concerning LaPaz's alleged involvement with Roswell is that, because he was fluent in Spanish, he was able to obtain valuable information from Spanish ranchers and hands. Fact is, despite his name, LaPaz, a native of Ohio, neither spoke nor wrote Spanish (although he did teach himself to write in Russian !!). When dealing with Spanish- speaking colleagues or reading or writing professional papers from or for Spanish-language journals, LaPaz used the services of an interpreter or translator. This information was provided to me in writing by LaPaz's daughter, Jean, a scientist herself, who worked very closely with her father at the University of New Mexico's Institute of Meteoritics, which LaPaz founded. Others who worked closely with LaPaz confirmed this. See my "Roswell in Perspective," pp. 77-78 and pertinent notes. On a related note, the idiotic "Dos Equis" column recently posted here also ran in the ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL. I wrote a letter to the editor, which was published, pointing out the columnists--notorious ethnic PCers/baiters--had bought into Randle and Schmitt's equally uncritical acceptance of the Spanish- speaking LaPaz tale, caring more about making a satiric (and silly) political point than the facts.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Re: Just what is an abduction experience? From: rfsignal@sprynet.com Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:20:29 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:10:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Just what is an abduction experience? >From: ufo1@juno.com [Jack Sargeant] >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Just what is an abduction experience? >Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 18:15:07 EST >>From: rfsignal@sprynet.com [Cathy Johnson] >>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:04:41 -0800 >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Just what is an abduction experience? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>I haven't posted for quite a while because of the flavours of >>arguments going on in technical legalese that I could barely >>interpret. [Huh? - ebk] Now, I have something I can reply to, >>because you asked for it. Dear Errol, I must apologize for using the wrong word there. I have to admit that I was kind of eyesore about reading all of the posts agrueing about the technical end of things. It is important to argue the facts, the discrepancies and how all of this came to be. That's what this List is for, comparing notes and getting those details to light where everyone can understand what's necessary. But, while some people here are still defining the kinds of sightings that they have had, or possibly not have had, you have to realize that there are people who have been sharing their experiences, who have come to know a bit more about some of those bright little lights in the sky. >...And admirably done. Reminds me of the good old days >when you and a few dozen others were participating in the >"Experiencers Only" thread. (Most of this data is gone >forever - a tremendous loss.) ...But most of you have >scattered to the 4 points of the compass, and no longer >involved with the Fidonet echoes. I wish I could gather >all of you together again to post your experiences again. >(More wishful dreaming.) <grin> Dear Jack, I am as sorry as you are that all of those posts are no more. But, time and technology marches on. On to new and better things at a time when we truly appreciate 'those good old days'! >P.S. Thanks for the great reply. And thank you for the compliment! Although I didn't include anything of my own experiences in that post, it is necessary to realize the extent and nature of our own perceptions as we relate to things we normally wouldn't even think of, let alone encounter in the darkness of our minds. Are abductions real? To some people they are as real as possible, while at the same time to some other people they are not. Who is to say anything about the mechanisms of the human mind that filters and discriminates information in such a varying way. Who could stand still as a Moon rides down through the clouds to terrorize and capture us, take us on ships to be examined and instructed, then to be released right back from where we started in the first place. What can possibly take our otherwise mundane lives and turn it all upside down in an instant, so completely, so extensively, that we are never the same for the rest of our lives? What can possibly have happened to us? Us, the hidden, the nameless, the willing participants or the innocent victims who have been so afflicted, so special in some way that no one has ever managed to find, so alone while thousands? millions? of abductees, contactees and all share the same kinds of experiences from all over the world. How could this be? How could something transcend world distances, political boundaries, religious faiths and dogmas, social structures of race, creed, colour, and so on. If there is such a trouble with the 'black and white' of it all, then you couldn't even begin to imagine the trouble with the 'Grey' of it all. Now could you? What if... if they were real and truly physical. Why are they here in the first place? Why are they acting so covertly? Why are they so concerned and careful about many things that only humans could identify or perceive? Why do they do what they do? Are we really so important to them? I think not. I think that we are going to be allowed to see the possibility of evolution being directed by outside influences in a manner we have never seen before. And, as our understanding grows, so too, will the extent of understanding how the alien presence has guided and affected us in so many ways. Take care for now, Cathy Johnson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 'Dos Equis' & his amigos stupidos From: Ktperehwon <Ktperehwon@aol.com> [Karl T. Pflock] Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:40:15 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:12:59 -0500 Subject: 'Dos Equis' & his amigos stupidos Errol and List Fiends -- Since I mentioned this letter in an earlier post, I thought I'd provide the whole enchilada for them as might be interested. BTW, as a devoted cerveza Dos Equis drinker, I was doubly (heh, heh) ticked off by the "Dos Equis" column. =A1Salud! -- DON KARLOS DE ALBURQUERQUE (not a typo) Y PLACITAS June 29, 1997 Letters to the Editor Albuquerque Journal Post Office Drawer J Albuquerque, NM 87103 Editor: In their silly satirical attempt to capitalize on the 50th anniversary of the Roswell UFO non-crash incident, "Latino Spectrum" columnists Roberto Rodriguez and Patrisia Gonzales fell into the ethnic stereotyping trap which they so often both decry and exploit ("'Dos Equis' Reveals All on Aliens," Journal, June 28). They, like the authors of the source of their information, Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt's "UFO Crash at Roswell," assumed that, because the late Dr. Lincoln LaPaz had a Spanish surname, he spoke Spanish and used this to help the government ferret out information about the alleged crashed flying saucer from New Mexico's Spanish-speaking ranchers and farmers. The linguistic truth about Dr. LaPaz, a native of Ohio who founded and directed the University of New Mexico's Institute of Meteoritics and did much classified work for the U.S. Air Force, is that he could neither speak nor read Spanish. During my investigation of the Roswell incident, I was told this by several of his former colleagues and students, a number of whom speak Spanish, and had it confirmed in no uncertain terms in a letter (July 4, 1993) from LaPaz's daughter Jean, who worked very closely with him: "[M]y father was NOT fluent in spoken Spanish [emphasis in original]. He neither spoke nor read that language, requiring the assistance of either an interpreter during interviews with Spanish-speaking individuals or a translator for scientific articles published in Spanish." Moreover, while Dr. LaPaz did quite a bit of very important work for the Air Force on the UFOs known as green fireballs, there is absolutely no credible evidence linking him with the Roswell affair. /signed, KTP/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Re: Au revoir From: "Tom Burnett" <burnettc@gte.net> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:09:27 -1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:36:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Au revoir Aloha Paul... While I am merely a recent lurker to the UFO UpDate list, I find it sad that many people are not willing to listen to reason or, more correctly, an alternative and, to my way of thinking, entirely logical viewpoint. It seems to me that there is an interesting mindset in the UFO community at large which tends to promote speculative viewpoints as probabilities rather than possibilities. This is pseudoscience, not impartial investigation. Would you be so kind as to inform me as to where I might continue to follow your thoughts and research? I am seriously interested in the subject matter and you are one of the few people I have read who are not lost in the confusion. Mahalo Tom Burnett burnettc@gte.net
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:22:05 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:43:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >From: DevereuxP <DevereuxP@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:33:09 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Jacobs and OBEs Paul writes, >John Velez supplied a forceful - if not intemperate - second >epistle on the status of his alien abduction experiences, which >he insists are physically real events. He deeply resents my >observations. >I will make just the following points: I don't "resent" your "observations" Paul. I strongly disagree with them. And, contrary to poular belief, I don't think my views are any more 'valid' than anyone elses. I still can't figure out how you (and a few others) continue to catagorize my objections to your proposed theories as "resentment" or that I am insisting that my views are 'the only valid ones.' Why introduce elements that aren't based in reality or in anything I have said. Still don't get that one. Maybe you think it'll help your arguement if you simultaneously try to ascribe motives such as "resentment" to my responses to it. Nonetheless, it is inaccurate and untrue. >* John, one of the reasons you gave for distinguishing what you >believe to be alien abductions from out-of-body experiences was >that you never saw your physical body in bed when you were 'out'. >I pointed out to you that many an OOBE experient/ astral >traveller has reported that when looking back at the bed during >an OOBE, it appeared to be empty. That remains a fact despite >your ire. It's like you selectively read and respond to the things I write. (THE) main things that I use as evidence for the physical reality of abduction is the physical marks and scars on our bodies, and several daylight, close up, multiple witness UFO sightings I have had. The business of not remembering seeing my body is the least among my reasons (but in there) for believing in a 3D physical reality in regard to "them." >* There are techniques for determining whether you are in an OOBE >state or not. But as you are having physically real >abductions,you won't need that knowledge. Thanx anyhow! <G> It -is- the 'thought' that counts isn't it Paul? <G> >* Putting in "<G>" does not make your image of shooting me in the >head with your pistol any less ugly. But it did persuade me to >now fervently hope that you are indeed actually being abducted by >physically real aliens, and that next time they don't bother to >bring you back. The "analogy" that you refer to was, "hitting you in the mouth with a baseball bat" not shooting you in the head! And, If you had actually taken the time to -read- my e-mail, you'd know that my 'baseball bat' analogy was in response to your insistance that my experiences only happen in my brain, remember now? Guns? Shooting? Whatta you make this up as you go along? And thanx for the kind thought Paul. Revealing, very revealing. I wouldn't wish an abduction experience on my worst enemy. I have also taken note that those that are in fact the most "threatened" (apparently) by my views (and that's all they are, is -my- views) are the ones who react to them with offensive personal attacks and genuine animosity. Your 'wish' for me only serves to illustrate the unusual degree of insensitivity that you are capable of, and the contempt you hold for anyone who dares disagree with you. That, I already knew about you. Geez, what a sorry 'fizzle' you are. John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Science Achieve Star Trekish Feat From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:12:44 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:50:00 -0500 Subject: Science Achieve Star Trekish Feat Science Achieve Star Trekish Feat c The Associated Press NEW YORK (AP) - Scientists have pulled off a startling trick that looks like the ``Beam-me-up-Scotty'' technology of science fiction. In an Austrian laboratory, scientists destroyed bits of light in one place and made perfect replicas appear about three feet away. They did that by transferring information about a crucial physical characteristic of the original light bits, called photons. The information was picked up by other photons, which took on that characteristic and so became replicas of the originals. The phenomenon that made it happen is so bizarre that even Albert Einstein didn't believe in it. He called it spooky. In addition to raising the rather fantastic notion of a new means of transportation, the trick could lead to ultra-fast computers. The experiment is reported in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature by Anton Zeilinger and colleagues at the University of Innsbruck in Austria. Another research team, based in Rome, has done similar work and submitted its report to another journal. The work is the first to demonstrate ``quantum teleportation,'' a bizarre shifting of physical characteristics between nature's tiniest particles, no matter how far apart they are. Scientists might be able to achieve teleportation between atoms within a few years and molecules within a decade or so, Zeilinger said. The underlying principle is fundamentally different from the ``Star Trek'' process of beaming people around, but could teleportation be used on people? Could scientists extract information from every tiny particle in a person, transfer it to a bunch of particles elsewhere, and assemble those particles into an exact replica of the person? There's no theoretical problem with that, several experts said. But get real. ``I think it's quite clear that anything approximating teleportation of complex living beings, even bacteria, is so far away technologically that it's not really worth thinking about it,'' said IBM physicist Charles H. Bennett. He and other physicists proposed quantum teleportation in 1993. There would just be too much information to assemble and transmit, he and others said. Even if it were possible someday, it would be so expensive that ``probably it's just as cheap to send the real person,'' said Benjamin Schumacher of Kenyon College in Gambier, Ohio. Besides, Schumacher said, teleportation would ``kill you and take you apart atom by atom so you could be reassembled at the other end, one hopes. It doesn't seem like a good idea to me.'' Much more likely, experts said, is using teleportation between tiny particles to set up quantum computers. These devices would use teleportation to sling data around, and they could solve certain complex problems much faster than today's machines. In the new work, scientists transferred the trait of ``polarization'' between photons. Light behaves like both a photon particle and as a wave. A light wave has peaks and troughs like an ocean wave, and polarization refers to the directions in which these peaks and troughs point. Photons retain this trait. To transfer the polarization between photons, the researchers used a phenomenon called entanglement, which a disbelieving Einstein derided. Since then, however, it's been shown to be real. When two photons are entangled, ``they have opposite luck,'' said IBM's Bennett. Whatever happens to one is the opposite of what happens to the other. In particular, their polarizations are the opposite of each other. Here's how the Austrians took advantage of that: Call three photons A, B and C, and assume the goal is to transmit A's polarization to C. The researchers created B and C as entangled photons. Then they entangled B with A. That second step destroyed A, but not before B took on the opposite of A's original state. This change meant B's entangled partner, C, had to change polarization to remain the opposite of B's. So C's polarization ended up the same as A's used to be. The polarization was transmitted. The process worked only 25 percent of the time because of how the experiment was set up. It's possible to go to 75 percent and scientists will shoot for that, Zeilinger said. If the notion of entanglement leaves your head spinning, don't feel bad. Zeilinger said he doesn't understand how it works either. ``And you can quote me on that,'' he said. AP-NY-12-10-97 1401EST
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 10 Re: UFOMIND: LaPaz Investigated Roswell According From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:28:59 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:42:19 -0500 Subject: Re: UFOMIND: LaPaz Investigated Roswell According 10. December 1997 00.08.22 Message From: campbell@ufomind.com,Internet Subject: UFOMIND: La Paz investigated Roswell according to R & S To: Stig Agermose ufomind@lists.best.com,Internet Date: Tue, 9 Dec 97 02:03:14 UT From: "Erik Landahl" <cubman@classic.msn.com> To: "Glenn Campbell" <campbell@ufomind.com> Subject: La Paz at Roswell In Randle and Schmitt's 1990 book, UFO Crash at Roswell, I believe they devoted an entire section to chronicling how Lincoln La Paz was hired by the government to trace the final crash path of the supposed UFO. That chapter from their book sticks out in my mind, how La Paz spent much time interviewing locals in remote locations who saw the object as it made its path toward its eventual supposed crash. According to Randle and Schmitt, La Paz used this info to recreate the path the object took. Has this La Paz story been discredited? ================================================================= From: Glenn Campbell I looked it up. There is a short chapter on La Paz on page 118-121 of Randle and Schmitt's "UFO Crash at Roswell." According to Lewis Rickett, he and La Paz interviewed ranchers in Sept. 1947 -- pretty much as claimed in the "Latino Conspiracy" article previously posted to the list. They interviewed witnesses at remote ranches and sought to determine the trajectory of the object. LaPaz believed the craft was unmanned. The information all comes from Rickett, who is a primary witness in the R & S book. (The claims about LaPaz would be discredited if Rickett were.) See: www.ufomind.com/catalog/r/roscrash/ See: www.ufomind.com/people/r/rickett/ +--------------------------------------------------------------- | UFOMIND MAILING LIST - Supporting the Ufomind/PsiSpy Website | http://www.ufomind.com/misc/ - Glenn Campbell, Moderator | "unsubscribe"/"subsingle" to: ufomind-request@lists.best.com | Submissions to: ufomind@lists.best.com | | RELEVANCE: Response to Previous, UFO Personalities | Index: Lincoln LaPaz +--------------------------------------------------------------- Search for other documents from or mentioning: stig_agermose | campbell
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 11 Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass From: "Keith Woodard" <qwoodard@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:13:16 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:02:51 -0500 Subject: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass >From: TotlResrch <TotlResrch@aol.com> [Kal K. Korff] >Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:03:58 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass Sightings > I wouldn't waste my time on this, many of us up here in the > Seattle/Northwest region saw this debris and it was just as > "impressive" as the old Skylab debris that feel to Earth > years ago. Why? Duh, because it WAS space debris. You seem awfully sure of yourself on this Seattle business, Kal. Maybe you could clear something up for me. I've heard that the official story explains the absence of ground debris by having it sink into the ocean. Why does nearly every sighting report it streaking from West to East? BTW, I assume my email was only one of many requests for clarification on your very intriguing 1981 sighting. Any chance you could post more details? Kind regards, Keith
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 11 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:07:11 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:05:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > From: jpeterson@polaristel.net [Candy Peterson] > Date: Tue, 9 Dec 97 18:44:02 PST > Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Doesn't it seem likely that the *windows* -- which are reportedly > preferred by the "abductors" as the passageway out of the house > -- would be the temporarily altered or de-materialized physical > substances, rather than the beings or the humans? Inanimate, > single-substance plane surfaces versus complex living organisms? If you have a case where this sort of thing has occurred, it would be appropriate to apply a variety of tests to the object reportedly "passed through". Assuming what you suggest actually occurred, it would be reasonable to expect that some level of physical change in the material might be detectable. Such changes might include embedded foreign material or air, isotopic / chemical changes, magnetic field changes on metallic materials such as doorknobs, radioactivity, etc. To the best of my knowledge, no such tests have ever been made, despite the possibility that whether it is the witness or the material being made permeable, some trace of the event will be found. Such evidence would go a long way toward validating the physical reality of that component of the abduction experience. Any thoughts on the types of tests that might be made? ------ Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at http://www.geocities.com/~mcashman - Original digital art, writing, and UFO research - Author of SF novels available at... http://www.infohaus.com/access/by-seller/The_Temporal_Doorway_Storefront ------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 11 Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:19:27 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:08:20 -0500 Subject: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass > Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:34:47 -0800 (PST) > From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass Sighting s > > Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 21:47:49 -0800 > > From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass > > Sightings ---Pardon another massive snip--- > > for us. I am sure that I could set aside my own conclusions to > > ask the simple questions of where were they and what was the path > > of these objects as they passed. I could record their > > descriptions on tape to expose any bias that could slip into my > > questions. Perhaps I would be lucky enough to find those few > > witnesses whose events were totally unrelated to the decay of > > some Russian booster. > Check first with Peter Davenport, of course. But I doubt that he > would supply anyone with witnesses' names who wished them to be > withheld, especially if he suspected the investigator's mind was > made up in advance and that he might verbally harrass any > witnesses whose stories contradict the investigator's > preconceived notions. However, quite a few persons were willing > to give their names in that UFORC report and you could hunt them > up; I know one of them whom I might be able to put you in contact > with. > I notice that Kal Korff has come to your defense. Do you need > that? > Jim Deardorff Again, most of our disagreement is a matter of proportion and interpretation. It would be a waste for us to go round and round about this based only on the quickly written initial observations of a number of witnesses. I am sure I made it clear that I was not volunteering a charitable effort in Seattle. If someone came up with the bucks, I would come up to Seattle. They would own the products of my efforts. (I was holding my breath after submitting the offer. Regrettably, I woke up the next morning crumpled on the floor.) OK, I admit it. I found it a bit disheartening to have Kal Korff seize on my posting in reentering the mail list. (Could this be another form of burning orbital decay?) Some people tend to contribute, some tend to only detract. I find it much more pleasant to speak with those pursuing their contributions no matter how wrong headed I think they may be about some points. Bye... Ted..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 11 Re: From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:09:10 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:35:09 -0500 Subject: Re: > From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:55:59 +0200 > Subject: Fwd: Year Old Data Used To Explain Seattle Sightings > [Begin RFC-822 message.] > From: authority@webtv.net > Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:38:04 -0700 > To: UASR@mylist.net > Subject: Year old data used to explain Nov.14th Seattle incident > The Norad object 25047 tracked on software, being an object > expected to decay in space, was tracked for Nov. 14th expected to > pass just north of Seattle at around 9PM Pacific time. That it > did. > Reports on the internet quoted a release from Peterson Air Force > Base, Colorado, showing that the space junk was expected from > Russian space debris on Nov.16th, instead of Nov.17th. This > internet story was implying that the space debris story of > sightings over Seattle on Nov. > 14th were bogus because this Peterson report said the stuff was > expected on the 16th. > The news release from Peterson was from 1996, not 1997. It was a > year old. Ted Viens reported on OVNI BRASIL and quoted the exact > Peterson Air Force Base report. [...] > This year old news release was used to show confusion at Norad or > at Peterson implying that the Seattle incident did not include > space junk. [...] > Doc in Phoenix I informed Peter Davenport of this a day or two ago, in case no one else did so. But he doesn't seem to update his UFORC web site very often, so I don't know if or when he'll purge that Petersen AFB report from his collection of Nov. 14th Pacific NW UFO reports. Jim Deardorff Search for other documents from or mentioning: deardorj | stig_agermose
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 11 Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 05:41:51 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:09:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony >Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:18:55 +0100 (MET) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold's testimony >List, > >A fifty year old case. An experienced pilot, Kenneth >Arnold, saw a train objects that flew extremely fast >from his private aircraft. They didn't look like aircraft, >they didn't look like birds. He is so excited that he >turns toward them to have a better look. After landing, >he is so excited that he tells reporters about it. > >Nobody had after heard of flying saucers or UFOs or >whatever. Arnold just reports his observation. Actually, there are many reports of UFOs prior to Arnold's sighting, but you are correct that the phrase "Flying Saucer" was not coined by the press until he commented that the objects looked like saucers skipping on the water. >Fifty years later someone comes along: 'they were geese'. >Seems they couldn't have been geese. 'OK, then they were >American White Pelicans'. >The arguments against this have been presented over and over >again. Still, the debate doesn't die out. Worse, some people >take this extreme silliness seriously. Of course both sides are making assumptions with the proposals they are advocating (or suggesting) and since part of the evidence is somewhat annecdotal there is no way to confirm it one way or the other. I would tend to trust Arnold's initial impression, and wouldn't accept the "geese" explanation without more than a theory. >The debate goes on for weeks. People who have better >things to do waste their time on total absurdity. Since we can't prove what the objects were, the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that they are UFOs. At some point it may be more productive to decide that no conclusion can be drawn, as opposed to beating this "dead horse" any further. >On certain days Ufology is just bizarre. It's been said that "it's always sunny somewhere in the world", and I would think that it's fair to say that "ufology is always bizarre somewhere in the world every day". Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 11 Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:34:20 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:10:16 -0500 Subject: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] >Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:56:27 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >And you are being unbiased here, right? You wouldn't be >disagreeing because of your upcoming participation in a CD-ROM >based on the Hesemann and Mantle book? >How do you explain the blemishes on the legs lining up? >Rebecca Rebecca, Yes, Philip is being unbiased. He is a very intellectually honest person. He doesn't claim to have the answers. As for the CD ROM, do you know what royalties on a project like this are? Hardly enough to get seriously bothered over. As for "blemishes" lining up, how do you know that these dark areas are "blemishes"? I don't know what they are, so how do you? I interpret them as "shadows" myself, and if you really look closely at Theresa's overlays, only some of them sort of line up. If they are shadows on similar legs, this is just what I would expect. The only thing that does line up is the upper contour of the left thigh from just above the knee to near the crotch. Nothing else really lines up. As another very good researcher has commented, I am "totally underwhelmed" by this alignment thing. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 11 Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #203 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:34:00 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:11:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #203 Apology to MW #203 (For December 11, 1997) Be it Earthlike in space as I travel vast distance? Can I breath the Earth's sweetness in transit t'wixt stars. Can I live in a can that retreats from the sun, or in rings that we built from collections of jars? The answer is yes, is my own learnt opinion. The answer is yes, in all ways, shapes, and forms. The answer is yes; even frat boys are grudging, as they plan in their businesses, proud churches, and dorms. We could push to light speed, or close to it anyway. We could slow the time down to a whimpering crawl. We could do in a moment what aeons were taking, and we'd seed the local galaxy with an Earth life, after all. It's all in the living the joys of continuance. It's all in a place where you stand safe and watch. It's finding and knowing, and beating the nightmare that nibbles at your never mind, then bites hard on your haunch. What's past grows small in a rear view screen. It's retreating with the sun. All you need is with you in your city on the run. Not running from a consequence, or running on the lam, but running to new futures where one gives a tinker's damn. A city's where you're living, then. It's travel spans the stars. The Earth is carried with you; Earth you've coaxed into your jars. All the people you have with you, that you'll ever see again, 'cause time erased those left behind, rather like they'd never been. But a thousand years then passed on Earth, and they had found a way (!) to hot wire the reality that we endure today. Less is more, they had discovered, and they could travel in a wink what your ship in space had traveled while your eye does less than blink. They meet you at your journey's end, they visit on the way. They upgrade all your hardware, but they never judge or weigh. They don't peer down lofty noses =85 don't insist upon new prayers. It's rather like you meet nice folks on a stellar flight of stairs. You can go or you can stay; you can have it either way, either one has heaven's promise -- satisfaction. No one pays so you can play, you make it work, you save the day! But for you the works are rusted to distraction. Return then to the night of dreams where nestled in the stars, are the fruits these satisfactions can provide in cosmic jars. I metaphor ideas, we then take our precious breath, and we live among the stars to cheat a grinning, leering death. Lehmberg@snowhill.com Regarding relevance, I contend that the battle must be fought on all the fronts at the same time, by some one <g>. You won't be engaging your garden variety anomaly while children starve _anywhere_ in complacent neglect. UFO's will never be accounted for when billions of your dollars are poured into the greedy coffers of non accounting black shops. A handle on the abduction phenomenon will remain forever elusive until we can put to rest who the man really is, and understand the mechanisms of his disrespectful manipulation held over, as it happens, from an arbitrary and absolutist time of the divine rights of priests and kings! A suggested alien presence will not treat with us on any level we'd appreciate as long as we environmentally foul our bed clothes, and then throw the dirty sheets into the faces of a hapless lot of ever increasing *never-haves*. All the fronts are tied together into this heaving mass of almost was, and could have been. It is composed of part and parcel, nuance, and suggestion. The seemingly understood is filled with surprise, and deepening mystery is no surprise at all. But, though composed of all these form defying portions and components, it is still a _whole_ that is greater than the sum of all of its parts. It must be seen _eventually_ as this *whole* as it is very easy to become lost into an infinity of contested compendium, hashing and rehashing these moot details until they have lost all meaning, relevance, and objectivity. The imposition into our consciousness by this *paranormal/UFO thing* is a manipulation of the whole. We have to believe that there is something _more_ to our aggregate reality than sifting conflicting minutia, following *rules*, paying taxes, and dying. We are fed a thin gruel of religion, work ethic, incomplete character assessment, and gross and prevaricating sexual titillation from a learned media that is clearly a tool of some shadowy control body. We don't get the real deal, just a distorted mist -- a lie in the fog. Cop to that, and the mist begins to dissipate, the lie becomes impossible to tell, and WE stand revealed. ~~~ Explore the Alien View? http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/ "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake, and now traveling between the stars.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 11 Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:11:48 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:16:59 -0500 Subject: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:31:16 -0500 >From: Theresa <Tcarlson1@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Theresa, Thanks for your lengthy post. I am responding here to the points that I have answers/comments on: >For some strange reason, you seem to be the only one that didn't >notice that this particular frame from first autopsy has the >object's axis rotated differently. Everyone else figured that >out and went and captured stills that were at the proper rotation >and found that way more than just the left thigh lines up. The >overlay you received was created to show that the bodies were on >both on their backs. But it made people curious and they went >and checked. When you sent me the overlay, you did not say that it was to prove that both bodies were on their backs, something that needed no proof in the first place. >Bob, did you capture frames and do your own overlays? I know you >weren't part of the peer group, but I still suggest that you you >do that anyways. I have no doubt that other people will. Yes, I have captured frames and floated them over the stills from autopsy one. All this has shown me is that the two bodies are very similar. That doesn't really prove anything, one way or the other. They could be clones, in which case I would expect them to be very similar. You speak of a "peer group" and say I was not part of it. Since I have done more work on this film than anyone other than, perhaps, yourself, what criteria did you use to select this "peer group"? >You see there were some constants there to work with. You can >call it manipulation, but it isn't done haphazardly. Did I ever say it was done haphazardly?? >A lot of the things that seem to be bothering you about my work I >already explained on my video presentation. I simply couldn't >afford to make a bunch of videos. It was quite expensive as it >was. (And I still have one daughter to put through college.) >Since you had already dismissed the preview without checking into >it yourself, I didn't see any use in sending you any more. If this is a real concern, and you really want my feedback, how much does one more copy cost? Currently this video of yours is in the same mythical category as the ones Jose Escmilla said he was mailing around three months ago. I can't comment on or respond to things I have not seen. I get my blank video tapes for the videos I produce and sell for about $ 3 each. Let me know how much you want to burn me a copy and I'll send you a check. >Now, even if you do all this and you still say that only the left >thighs are a match, how do you justify those matching? You stated in >November, 1995 that the left femur on SUE was broken and the lump >there was swelling from. You stated that your medical professionals >confirmed this. So, both bodies have broken femurs and both swelled >the same? Both have a lack of bruising in the inner thigh area where >said swelling appears? How do I explain that? Simple, I was wrong. We only had one video to look at then, and the thigh looked "deformed' by human standards. If a human thigh was that shape, we would know that the femur was broken. Obviously if we have two bodies with similarly shaped thighs, then they either have identical fractures (highly unlikely) or this is how the thigh is shaped normally. New data modifies old research, and I'm sure you know that. >>I have talked personally to everyone who is known to have seen >>both autopsies. Every one of them stresses differences in the >>bodies rather than similarities. Since Philip is one of those >>people, perhaps he would care to comment on his own impressions >>of the similarities/differences of the two bodies. >How observant were those people that saw the first autopsy? I >have a message from you that you quote Philip M. as saying that >the body in the first autopsy was "shriveled up like a raisin". >No matter what way I look at this still from the first autopsy, I >can't describe it in anything like those terms. How observant they were certainly varied. Both Philip and Susan Mantle saw the first autopsy, and both have told me that they would have paid a lot more attention if they had known that it would be withdrawn from circulation. But both (and Philip please correct me if I am wrong) have said the bodies looked different. >The similarities in the two bodies are just an interesting aside >for me tho. What convinced me was the inconsistencies in the >"blood" marks in the footage. I can not conceive of any way >this could have occurred in a real autopsy. Why haven't you >addressed this instead of beating on some body comparisons? I haven't addressed this because you have not shared it with me. All I know is that you said something about painted on blood drips not changing. If you want to give me the full details, I'll look and comment. >Ray Santilli has already given me his "explanation" or "best >guess" or what ever it was. Do you have an explanation also? Explanation of WHAT? >I know that you have a CD to sell and that this is probably a bad >time for you to have to look at things objectively. I have >offered this information as evidence not proof, as I already >stated. My opinion is my opinion, it has nothing to do with a few possible bucks from CD royalties. >Proof is up to each individual, but they should have as much >information as possible to make that decision. Agreed. So give it to me. >Early on in this saga, Ray Santilli offered some photocopies of >some labels alleged to be on the autopsy film cans. Those >labels were studied and researched. Mr. Rob Irving did excellent >research on them, and I double checked his work on my own. >Will you be offering the information on that research on your >version of the CD? No. Except for a contribution from Paul Fuller the material on the CD is all from Mike, Philip and me. I'm not in charge of this project, and I am sure that there is no way that Mike (and Perhaps Philip) would have let me include anything from Mr. Irving. >The camera man's tale doesn't work. Many points there, will you >be including those? No. It seems to work for me and many others except for the bit about how he got to keep the film. >If you really want people to make up their own minds about this, >give them ALL of the information. You have the opportunity to >make a difference, and maybe even set a precedence in this >messed up field. Why? Have the skeptics done so? I don't think that's bloody likely! We will make it possible for informed skeptical material to be posted on our web site when it is up and running. ETA, around January 15. > Please? Pretty please, Bob? I'm doing what I can. I don't see why it is up to me to reform UFOlogy. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 11 Re: Just what is an abduction experience? From: ufo1@juno.com [Jack Sargeant] Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:11:40 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:23:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Just what is an abduction experience? My compliments to the list and especially to Cathy... >>>From: rfsignal@sprynet.com [Cathy Johnson] >>>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:04:41 -0800 >>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Just what is an abduction experience? >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> [snip] >It is important to >argue the facts, the discrepancies and how all of this came to >be. That's what this List is for, comparing notes and getting >those details to light where everyone can understand what's >necessary. >But, while some people here are still defining the kinds of >sightings that they have had, or possibly not have had, you have >to realize that there are people who have been sharing their >experiences, who have come to know a bit more about some of those >bright little lights in the sky. >>...And admirably done. Reminds me of the good old days >>when you and a few dozen others were participating in the >>"Experiencers Only" thread. (Most of this data is gone >>forever - a tremendous loss.) ...But most of you have >>scattered to the 4 points of the compass, and no longer >>involved with the Fidonet echoes. I wish I could gather >>all of you together again to post your experiences again. >>(More wishful dreaming.) <grin> >Dear Jack, >I am as sorry as you are that all of those posts are no more. >But, time and technology marches on. On to new and better things >at a time when we truly appreciate 'those good old days'! >>P.S. Thanks for the great reply. >And thank you for the compliment! Although I didn't include >anything of my own experiences in that post, it is necessary to >realize the extent and nature of our own perceptions as we relate >to things we normally wouldn't even think of, let alone encounter >in the darkness of our minds. Are abductions real? To some >people they are as real as possible, while at the same time to >some other people they are not. Who is to say anything about the >mechanisms of the human mind that filters and discriminates >information in such a varying way. [snip] >What if... if they were real and truly physical. Why are they >here in the first place? Why are they acting so covertly? Why >are they so concerned and careful about many things that only >humans could identify or perceive? Why do they do what they do? >Are we really so important to them? I think not. I think that >we are going to be allowed to see the possibility of evolution >being directed by outside influences in a manner we have never >seen before. And, as our understanding grows, so too, will the >extent of understanding how the alien presence has guided and >affected us in so many ways. >Take care for now, >Cathy Johnson Cathy, The success of the "Experiencers Only" thread was due to my stance of complete neutrality. After all, having no formal degrees (or hot tubs), I simply provided a place for people to share their experiences. There are many explanations floating about from both the skeptic, professional, and also among the ranks of experiencers themselves, as can be attested to by Clark Hathaway, and his own interpretation of some experiences. It is 100 percent impossible for any single explanation to prevail. The professional psychologist would suggest a traumatic childhood incident was responsible. ...Or spousal abuse. ...Or parental abuse. ...Or even just a practical joke by attention seekers. ...Anything but the actual happening as interpreted and remembered by the victim. Although finding the truth is the primary goal of researchers, UFOlogists, and the just plain curious, the overall product seems to make for some really interesting reading to those like myself who have no axe to grind. The bottom line is, nothing prevents you from posting your own experience for all of us right here in this forum, should you take the notion (hint, hint). The worst that can happen is, someone may accuse you of spinning a really good yarn. ...But you have grown out of the concern for what others think over the years, I'm sure. I do know this much... You believe in your experience. ...And that's all that counts. I challenge you to share it with us again, here and now. ;-) Regards, Jack
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 11 Alien Autopsy Report From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:03:37 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:24:46 -0500 Subject: Alien Autopsy Report Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 19:35:53 -0800 From: Mark Lee Center <enzoab@ix.netcom.com> To: enzoab@ix.netcom.com Subject: Alien Autopsy Report Hello Interested People! Please go to the Society of Operating Cameramen Home Page to see the latest news on the Alien Autopsy! http://www.soc.org/alienautopsy.html There you will find an in depth report weighing the pros and cons of the film. Myself and others helped with the report and it turned out pretty good. Pass the word around please. The stories not yet dead!!! Thx, Mark L. Center http://www.uforeport.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 11 the Grand Conspiracy From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:14:37 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:26:41 -0500 Subject: the Grand Conspiracy > From: Ktperehwon <Ktperehwon@aol.com> [Karl T. Pflock] > Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:52:44 EST > Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:05:58 -0500 > Subject: Re: LaPaz's Activities > >Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 11:07:11 -0800 > >From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) > >To: Updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: LaPaz's Activities > Greetings Jan & UpDates Addicts: > >To me the real history of UFOs is very interesting without the > >conspiracy theories of people with other axes to grind and > >without the anonymous "inside" informants who can never supply > >any credible and creditable evidence or support. Boy ain't 'dat the truth. The conspiracy claims have been so forcefully attached to this field of research that it's enough to make anyone dizzy. There's lots of people doing excellant research without constantly making reference to the big bad Air Force-tap my phone-steal my evidence-threaten my witnesses all the time song and dance. It's exhausting. To what extent the Defense Department actually monitors UFO's and ufology I really couldn't say but I've begun to tire of this field being superficially presented as one big conspiracy and nothing more. What a stigma. Especially here on the Internet where the bullshit stacks up so fast you need wings to stay above it. Speaking of which, my name isn't really "Jared" it's Jarod. I changed it after completing that project with Bill Uhouse when I was sending him telepathic messages on how to build UFO simulators based on our technology. Jared.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 11 Crop Circle Connector #52 From: Mark Fussell <mjfussell@marque.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:27:27 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:29:08 -0500 Subject: Crop Circle Connector #52 Welcome to the Crop Circle Connector Mailing List #52 WHAT`S NEW on the Crop Circle Connector at:- http://alpha.mic.dundee.ac.uk/ft/crop_circles/anasazi/whatsnew.html Updated Monday 8th December 1997 (Members 2280) ******************************************** BACK TO BASICS Internal Geometry of Crop Circles By Bert Janssen Two major articles one in Dutch with the translated English Version Bert has been a Dutch Crop Circle researcher for some years, and has noticed the containing geometry within the patterns, which form the fundamental basis for the designs. In this particular article he discusses and shows us the fascinating correlation between the formations and points out the construction of certain shapes from the 1997 season, and the internal mechanics of their form. ******************************************** All the best Stuart & Mark *******************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 11 CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS: Filer's Files #49 From: Majorstar <Majorstar@AOL.COM> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:37:03 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:34:11 -0500 Subject: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS: Filer's Files #49 Filer's Files #49 MUFON Skywatch Investigations From George A. Filer: MUFON Eastern Director, Dec. 11, 1997 Majorstar@aol.com (609) 654-0020 The Sages tell us to study history carefully. For what happens to our forebears is bound to happen again to us. NEW YORK Case 97/9/15. MUFON investigators Richard Slingerland and David Bodner (sp) P.E. completed their investigation of a September 9th sighting near Pulaski, NY. The witness, a well known local artist, looked up for no particular reason and observed an unidentified flying object. The witness described the UFO as similar to a Christmas snowball like tree ornament. It had an irregular surface, but a perfect outline. The UFO glowed as if it had an internal light source. The entire object appeared white except for a black circle near the bottom. This black circle may have been an opening, a window or part of the propulsion system. The black circle within the UFO appeared to rotate about 45 degrees during the four to five minute observation. The witness drew an artistic watercolor representation of the UFO, showing its size in relation to the moon. The apparent size comparison indicates the object was three times larger than the moon. The witness felt the object was at least 5000 feet from her and no farther than a mile away. This would indicate it was a large object at least the size of a large aircraft. The witness felt fearful during the sighting and afterwards felt uncomfortable thinking about it. The event ended when the object dissolved instantaneously. Thanks to David Schmidt, NY State Director, and Richard Slingerland for this report. ARIZONA CNI News editor Michael Lindemann reports on the night of November 25, Lesley Beare and her housemate David described a series of incidents that began in mid-evening and lasted until past midnight. David, who calls himself a complete skeptic regarding UFOs, told that he and Lesley were returning from a short trip to a nearby convenience store when they observed several lights moving in the sky above their ranch. At first, he assumed the lights belonged to some kind of "test aircraft," because unusual aircraft often fly out of nearby Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, south of Tucson. However, at Lesley's urging, he observed the lights through binoculars. "I've never seen a plane like this," he said. "It didn't have legal [aircraft] lights. It was very bright and dashing about." Despite the oddness of the sighting, David went inside to read a book. "I didn't want to deal with it," he said. "I had my denial going." But Lesley stayed outside. At least one other woman, a neighbor, also watched the moving lights. "It was like two spheres, circular, and playing, going up and down and sideways and together," Lesley said. The sighting so captivated her that she forgot about the ice cream they had just purchased at the store. It was found melting in the car the next morning. But this was just the beginning. After watching the lights for about half an hour, Lesley went inside with David and her two children. Some time later, her dogs started barking. She let them out the front door. "I went out the front door, and there were these three shapes in the sky that were all different colors," Lesley said. "One was like a square with a triangle in it, one was like two spheres, and one was like two boxes with what appeared to be some kind of bridge or light that attached them together. So I went in and got David and my two kids and had them look at it. We were watching them dance in the sky." Asked to estimate size and distance of the objects, Lesley said that they appeared to be "in front of" a mountain range about two miles away, to the east. She estimated that the objects looked bigger than a helicopter would look at the same distance. The objects made no noise, she said. Although the moving lights looked beautiful, Lesley said she became concerned because her animals were obviously agitated. "My dogs were barking constantly and acting weird. The horses were very upset. The goats were hiding under their little house." Lesley said her animals had never acted that way as long as she had been on that ranch. It was then that she decided to call Davis-Monthan Air Force Base. "I asked David-Monthan, 'Are you doing something in the sky? Because my animals are going crazy, and I'll go down and tranquilize them if you're doing something that's upsetting them.' And they basically said, 'That's classified information,' and hung up," Lesley told CNI News. "Whatever happened [that] night was not usual. It wasn't right," David said. "We called Davis-Monthan to report it, and they told us it was classified and none of our business." Lesley then decided to call local news media to see if anyone had reported similar sightings, but no one had. Then she called 911. To her surprise, the 911 operator gave she reported her sighting to a "UFO place" in Florida. " By this time, there was more activity in the sky. Two or three planes appeared to come toward their location from Davis-Monthan. Though David could not confirm that they were military jets, he felt sure they were not commercial planes. He said the strange aerial objects disappeared as the planes approached, but returned when the planes left the area. "It was real obvious, after I made the report, that Davis-Monthan AFB was getting interested. We never have planes like that around our house," Lesley said. "Davis-Monthan wanted to know where [the objects] were," David added. Later that evening, Lesley took a high-powered flashlight and flashed it toward the sky. "The box-shaped one was starting to go away, so I had this big mag-light, and as I flickered the light, this thing came toward me," she said. "It scared the hell out of me and my kids." "It was hovering in one spot, and then it started coming toward us," David said. "I told her, 'Don't do that! Come in the house!'" They all ran inside. That was the last they saw of the objects. They did not go back outside until the next morning. But the strangeness was not over. "This is the weirdest thing," Lesley said. "My kids were terrified. They're nine and twelve years old. So I put them to bed, and then David and I went to bed. And as we were going to sleep, he said, 'One of the boys is in here. Look at the bottom of the bed.' As I looked up, I saw what appeared to be a figure of some kind, and then it was gone. So I ran into my kids' room, because I thought they were playing some kind of game with me. But they were sound asleep." Lesley and David say they don't know who, or what, was in their room that night. Thanks to CNI News editor Michael Lindemann and Bill Ventre. COLORADO Last week, we reported on the discovery of cattle mutilations in the San Louis Valley . Now we have learned that the night before, on November 29, 1997, at 11 p.m., four people in Crestone, Colorado on the western slope of the Sangre de CristoMountains, spotted "unusual multi-colored lights" in the sky about 15 to 20 miles northwest of town. Identical lights were also seen by four people traveling on Colorado Highway 17, located 15 miles west of Crestone. This sighting took place at around 4:45 p.m. The following morning, Sunday, November 30,a rancher found a dead mutilated calf on his property just northwest of Center, Colorado; a small town 165 miles southwest of Denver. The "year-old, still-warm, female calf...was missing all the flesh from its right- side mandible, its right eye and a 10-inch (25-centimeter) rectum coring that extended 18 inches (45 centimeters) into the animal." "The crime scene was completely devoid of any tracks--except for the dead calf's," reported Skywatch investigator Christopher O'Brien, author of THE MYSTERIOUS VALLEY (St. Martin's Press, 1996). There were no "footprints or blood or any additional clues as to how the calf was killed and subsequently mutilated." The rancher, who owns a herd of 38 cattle, told O'Brien that he found "a second calf with a bloody nose and is missing a third." The case is being investigated by the Saguache County Sheriff's Department. Center is on Highway 112 approximately. (Many thanks to Steve Wilson Sr. (UFOSSI) for this report.) NEW JERSEY On November 17, 1997, , a ham radio operator reported that UFOs were active according to pilot transmissions to Newark Airport Tower on frequency 118.300Mhz. (See Filer's Files #47) The report indicated, "Flight 262 flying over northern New Jersey reported at 8:50 p.m., he had two UFOs right in front of him. A second jet also reported two UFOs near them." MUFON investigator Bob Durant, who is an airline pilot has made inquiries into the alleged incident. Bob believes the radio transmissions and procedures used by the alleged pilots and Newark Tower imply a prank or hoax. For example, pilots almost always identify themselves by airline name, such as Delta Flight 262 or TWA Flight 111 rather than just Flight 262. Tapes of the radio transmissions are apparently not available. Therefore, unless new evidence is obtained, we have serious doubts to the validity of this report. UNITED KINGDOM Victor Kean reports, the Rendlesham "Skywatch" team recorded their first FT sighting on December 5th, 1993. Visits continued throughout 1994, 1995 and 1996 during which the FT was seen on 16 occasions. Various colored Spheres were also observed. With the establishment of the FT Database it was found that the timings of the Rendlesham 'Skywatch' team fitted neatly with timed sightings from the Sizewell, Suffolk Nuclear Power complex. The distance between Rendlesham and Sizewell is 12 miles. Intervals of 10 and 30 minutes are noted. On one particular occasion (Feb.19th 1995) the FT was first seen "Hovering out at sea" over the Wash, East Anglia (52.57 N. 0.19 E.) at 1950 hours. by independent observers. The FT was then 'tracked' by four other sightings during the hours following This assumes, of course, that it was the *same* FT on each occasion.) The "Skywatch' team observed the FT at 0245 hours. It was seen at Sizewell at ten minutes later. During 1997 (Jan. to July) The black FT has been observed on five occasions. Colored Spheres on nine occasions. Intervals between the Rendlesham sightings and subsequent Sizewell NPS sightings are between 2 and 12 minutes. I am loath to say much about the "Skywatch" team themselves. They are headed by one of the UK's well- respected researchers. I have repeatedly warned them of the risks they are taking by being in the Rendlesham area, close to the Woodbridge base (Now back in 'operation') in the wee small hours of the morning. The whole area is a 'sensitive' area and maps in the Public Domain are clearly marked as being a 'DANGER AREA' . My concern is that they may stumble into a Military 'Swat Team'. Groups are currently conducting 'skywatches' in Rendlesham Forest and observing spheres and the occasional FT on its way to/ and from the Sizewell Nuclear complex. Thanks to Victor Kean and PROJECT-1947. On November 12, 1997, at 5:14 p.m., Harry Price was walking his dog in Bognor Regis, West Sussex, about 70 miles (112 kilometers) southwest of London "on a clear but chilly evening." As he approached the Bognor Regis railroad station, "looking up in a northerly direction, he saw a shining light that split into seven smaller lights and traveled away" to the north. Harry's workmate, who was with him at the time, "also saw the same thing." A third eyewitness, waiting at the train station, saw the same UFO "from the platform a few minutes before the arrival of the 5:30 train." (Many thanks to Roger of CompuServe for this report.) ( ARGENTINA A glowing UFO paced a local transit bus on the highway between Rio Cuarto and Las Higueras in Cordoba province, Argentina, approximately 512 kilometers (320 miles) west of Buenos Aires, the national capital. The incident took place Tuesday evening, November 25, 1997. Sra. Alicia Ana de Lourenco boarded a transit bus owned by Transportes Rio Cuarto Ltda. for a trip to the nearby town of General Cabrera. At 8:55 p.m., Sra. de Lourenco looked out the bus window at "a storm front in the south." Suddenly, "a luminous object, bigger than a star and far more brilliant, caught her attention, and she began to observe it with great care." The OVNI (Spanish acronym for UFO) "had a half-moon shape," and she estimated that its flight path carried it over Carnerillo, southeast of Rio Cuarto. "To corroborate what she was seeing, she called to a policeman sitting a few rows in front of her. Then, to get a better view of the object, they opened the side window and observed how it zigzagged right and left." As the UFO came closer, the bus passengers saw that it contained "four rows of lights, which Sra. de Lourenco described as 'the lights of a theatre.'" The "luminous OVNI" kept pace with the bus until it reached Las Higueras, about five kilometers (3 miles) northeast of Rio Cuarto" and then it zipped away. The UFO was seen and videotaped in Las Higueras by a teenager, Valeria Angelini, who used a Panasonic M8000 camcorder "to capture the luminous object on tape." On Monday, December 1, 1997, Srta. Angelini was interviewed by three ufologists from the Argentine UFO study group COR-Thanks to Carlos Iurchuk y Fundacion Argentina de Ovniologia para eso caso. and UFO RoundupVol 2, # 47, December 7, 1997 Editor: Joseph Trainor.) NEW HAMPSHIRE With the onset of winter snows, the families of missing Lear jet pilots Johan Schwartz and Patrick Hayes have ended their weekend searches in the upper Connecticut River valley of New England. Since the official search ended on January 6, 1997, the men's relatives and numerous friends have scoured the woods on both the New Hampshire and Vermont sides of the river, searching for the wreckage of the Lear jet, which vanished on the morning of December 24, 1996. "The plane left Bridgeport, Connecticut at 9:20 a.m. At 9:45, it was within a few miles of Lebanon (New Hampshire), 176 miles north." "At 9:51, one of the pilots told the (Lebanon, N.H.) tower he had missed on his first approach in the rain and fog. The tower cleared the pilot to turn around and try again. The plane called the tower, but an airport spokesman said the signal was 'very, very weak' and unintelligible. 'The tower tried to call back, and there was no answer,' the spokesman said." The families, aided by hundreds of volunteers and friends, launched a new round of ground searches on October 12. In early November, the search's focus turned to Topsham, Vermont a town 45 miles north of Lebanon, N.H., following a report from a woman who had been driving on Route 302 that morning. Over the Christmas carols on her car radio, "Donna Nelson heard a roar like a cranky furnace firing up on a cold morning. She turned and saw a plane flying 'much, much too low. It was a little over the tree level. I'm not one to look at planes flying around, but it was making this awful noise,' she said." "The jet appeared to be following the road she was on, U.S. Route 302 from Topsham to Barre, Vt. It was just after 10 a.m. on Christmas Eve day (December 24--J.T.)." Yet a search of the Topsham area proved futile. No wreckage was found. According to Major Ron Alie of the N.H. Fish and Game Department, over 275 witness reports were collected this year. Most of them contradict each other. The Lear jet flown by Schwartz, 31, of Westport, Conn. and Hayes, 30, of Clinton, Conn. was flying at a speed of four miles per minute. Yet, even at that speed, it could not have been over both Topsham, Vt. and Lincoln, N.H., communities 70 miles apart, at just after 10 a.m. Eyewitness reports of "low-flying jets" were also received from Campton, N.H., 70 miles east of Lebanon; East Andover, Croydon and Meriden, and also in Charlestown, N.H., on the river, 40 miles south of Lebanon and 60 miles southeast of Topsham, Vt. "Vermont witness reports came from towns as far south as Putney north to the St. Johnsbury area and to Hardwick, about 10 miles west of St. Johnsbury." (Incidentally, the Hardwick/St. Johnsbury area was the site of several UFO sightings between January and May 1997--J.T.) The families' "grief has been tinged with bitterness that the official search was called off so soon, and that their pleas to resume the search in the spring went unanswered." "'Yes, we realize that there were no survivors, but we're still alive and we should be helping each other,' Jay Hayes said." "Search officials say too much time has elapsed for them to get involved." "Jay Hayes does not know how long he will keep looking." "'Once a year's over, I don't know what I'm going to do,' he said. 'I've done everything I can. But you never give up hope.'" (See the Providence, R.I. Journal-Bulletin for November 30, 1997, "Pilots' Families Still Seek Answers as Anniversary of Crash Nears," and October 13, 1997, "Flight of N.H. Mystery Jet Lingers In Witnesses' Memories." From: UFO RoundupVol 2, # 47, December 7, 1997 Editor: Joseph Trainor TWA FLIGHT 800 A retired Navy pilot, Commander William Donaldson, claims he has done his own investigation of TWA Flight 800 and feels certain the crash was caused by a terrorist missile. On Sunday, December 7, 1997, he was the key speaker on the C-Span, "Accuracy in Media" television show. He claims that radar tapes reviewed by FAA and Navy personnel show a missile hitting the aircraft. He further claims the reason for the denials by government were Whitehouse orders to prevent public knowledge of terrorist operations prior to the election. The President issued Executive Order 13039 on March 11, 1997, that rescinded all Whistle Blower laws concerning this case. The order was released just prior to the "Paris Magazine" article also claiming that a missile caused the tragedy. Commander Donaldson personally interviewed several witnesses who saw a missile like object leave the ocean surface, ascend to altitude make a left turn and explode near Flight 800. He provided taped testimony of Richard Gauss a witness to the tragedy. Gauss stated he heard the sound of thunder twice and a few seconds later saw an orange flare like object ascend towards West Hampton. As the flare climbed higher and glowed in the sky, he commented to his friend, "It looks like a UFO," The object penetrated a cloud layer and he saw a huge glowing brightness in the sky. Tom Daugherty another witness was on the porch of the Hampton Yacht Club when he and a group of friends saw a missile like object launch. All saw the fireworks bright pink launch . The unidentified object climbed straight up then veered sharply towards an aircraft and exploded. A few seconds later a larger secondary explosion occurred and the smoky wreckage started tumbling into the sea. Several witnesses also complained of having strange men guard their house for a year after the crash. Donaldson also interviewed Major Mier, an ANG pilot who had won a Distinguished Flying Cross in Vietnam. Major Mier was flying near Flight 800 at the time and insisted the initial explosion was caused by ordinance outside the craft such as a missile. He had observed missiles in Vietnam. The initial explosion was outside rather than from inside the aircraft's center wing fuel tank. All investigators agree that the center fuel tank exploded. The disagreement concerns what caused the center tank to explode. Government experts claim they have not determined the cause, but rule out a missile. Donaldson conducted some experiments on TV showing that Jet A fuel used by virtually all commercial aircraft is very difficult to explode and would have needed an outside source such as a missile. He measured the temperature on the center fuel tanks on similar 747 aircraft under similar conditions and found the that comparatively low temperatures could not have caused an explosion. His most convincing evidence had to do with damage to the aircraft. He claims Flight 800's nose wheel doors were blown inward by the impact from an explosion outside the aircraft. Parts of the wing were also blown apart as from a missile, rather than from an internal explosion. These key parts of the aircraft damaged in the initial missile explosion landed first several thousand feet prior to the other parts of the aircraft. Tracking the damage caused by the secondary fuel tank explosion would not reach either to the outer wings or to the nose wheel panels. A top secret hangar allegedly houses 40 key aircraft parts of the aircraft showing damage from the impact of explosion outside the aircraft. Although this evidence and other evidence has been presented to the news media they have been reluctant to tell the story to the public. The full true story of Flight 800 has yet to be told. ABDUCTIONS AND UFO CONSULTATIONS We are happy to announce that Dr. Joseph Ricciolli M.D. Eastern MUFON is available for hypnosis, and consultation for UFO related events. Preliminary consultation can be accomplished over the phone. He can be contacted through his web site at http//www.Angelfire.//com//nj/CENTER or Dr.Hypno@mail.com. . If you have a UFO news or comments, please, e-mail it to: Majorstar@aol.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 11 The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:09:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:58:44 -0500 Subject: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' Errol wrote, >Time to call closure on The Birds... Errol, As you wish. I had asked for a summary of the remaining objections to the scenario outlined and did want to move on to other things. If I might tidy up a couple of points in closure... George Fergus pretty well summed up the possibilities which should arguably at least be considered and the difficulty, as always, is that in dealing with anyone's estimations, perceptions, sometimes unclear and overall not entirely consistent evidence, there is so much open to interpretation. Kathleen commented, "If you were to live here as I do, you would notice that Mt. Rainier can be very deceiving... Reading a map of the area cannot give you an accurate picture of what things are like". Having seen photographs of the spectacular Mt. Ranier and surrounding landscape, I realised how true this was. Perhaps the only way to ever fully appreciate and document the perspective of Kenneth Arnold's reported encounter is to retrace that same route and record it on film. Don might offer, so long as we make sure his camera's loaded.;) Incidentally Kathleen, when I asked birdwatchers from the area if there were any candidates which might explain Arnold's descriptions of the flight characteristics, I had specified they must be conceivably southbound birds in the area and at that time of year. Their suggestion was in that context, however it would not be a common sighting. Whether it might have been more or less so in 1947 is another matter - you could maybe quiz some of the local "old timers"! Their overall recollections of the case and it's impact could be quite interesting. I had enquired if anyone knew the origin of what was apparently a later sketch from Kenneth Arnold, showing the crescent-shaped object with a tail. In her article, "The Mystery of the Ken Arnold Story", Kathleen writes: "On July 3rd Arnold met with a good friend, Colonel Paul Wieland. [...] Two days later, Arnold and Wieland went to Boeing Field in Seattle where they met Captain E.J. Smith who made a spectacular sighting the day before. [...] Captain Smith, his co-pilot Ralph Stevens, and the entire United Air Lines Flight 105 had a UFO sighting just after takeoff from Boise Idaho. Nine objects, flat and circular. Flight attendant Martie Morrow was called to the cockpit and noticed what appeared to be a formation of flying disks. They were noted as bigger than the DC-3. [...] About the end of July, a letter was sent to Arnold from the Army Air Corps, requesting that he investigate a strange incident on Maury Island, an island in the Puget Sound group and accessible by short ferry ride from Tacoma or Seattle. Arnold did not respond. About the 25th of July, two representatives from Military Intelligence came to visit. During a friendly conversation Arnold mentioned that just coincidentally Captain Smith was arriving into Boise. The men proceeded to the airport to meet Smith and his co-pilot. Arnold and Smith provided a drawing of what they had both seen. Arnold left out one important bit of data: one of the 9 craft was different from the rest. He thought it would diminish the story. He was very wrong. [...] This whole case was becoming very complex. Lieutenant Brown and Captain Davidson from The Fourth Air Force Base become involved. [...] In his meeting with Capt. Davidson, Arnold was shown a photograph of a craft. It struck a note in Ken's mind, this was the one missing piece --the "other" shaped craft that Arnold had not disclosed. Davidson told him that the original negative was flown to Washington D.C. [End] Kathleen's full article can be seen at URL: http://www.pdsnorth.com/~mufonwa/arnold.html According to Harold Wilkins, in, "Flying Saucers on the Attack", the sketch in question originated from Lieutenant Frank Brown, of U.S. Military Intelligence. When Arnold was shown the sketch - it seems this was in August 1947 during his investigation of the Maury Island incident - he reportedly claimed that the object depicted looked exactly like one he had seen in the formation of nine, allegedly the second bottom in the echelon. As Kathleen and others will know, Brown was killed when his B-52 crashed on the return trip from meeting Arnold. If it wasn't Arnold's drawing, which sighting report did that sketch [I'm assuming this is the 'photograph' Kathleen refers to] therefore originate from? Wilkins coverage of the Arnold story and the Maury Island case is a historical perspective I had long forgotten and I rediscovered a quote which Wilkins attributes to Arnold, in which Arnold reportedly states, "At my home, I have been visited by unseen entities whom I believe to be pilots of these weird disks. They were invisible to me and made no attempt to communicate. But I was aware of their presence because I could see my rugs and furniture sink down under their weight, as they walked about the room, or sat on various objects in the room". Did Arnold ever repeat or expand on this reported claim? James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 12 Re: Au revoir From: DevereuxP <DevereuxP@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:03:45 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:18:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Au revoir >From: "Tom Burnett" <burnettc@gte.net> >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Au revoir >Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:09:27 -1000 Dear Tom, Many thanks for your message - one of several I have received privately. I greatly appreciate your comments. Facts on File will be bringing out UFOs & UFOLOGY (Devereux and Brookesmith) in the States in February, I think - it is out in the UK this month from Blandford Press. That goes into some of the things I have been attempting to discuss on Updates, and is illustrated. Next year, I'll have a book out on lucid dreaming (from Tuttle in USA, I think). But the heavy duty stuff on alien abductions/lucid dreaming and practical ways to have the experience will take a bit longer - we are up to our eyes in the work right now. It will be sea-change material - promise. Also, I run a fairly regular column in FORTEAN TIMES magazine - available from major bookstores in both UK and USA. Very best wishes, Paul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 12 Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:06:58 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:20:07 -0500 Subject: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:11:48 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso <Mucho snippo> >I'm doing what I can. I don't see why it is up to me to >reform UFOlogy. >Bob Bob: Nor do I. Out of curiousity, though...you're on record on this list as defending a non-literal/physical interpretation of UFOs and aliens in general, and abductions in particular. At the same time, however, you continue to (seemingly) defend the physical reality of the alien autopsy film. I'm not asking you to make an either/or choice here, I'm just curious as to how you reconcile the two opposite points of view? Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 12 Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #203 From: rfsignal@sprynet.com [Cathy Johnson] Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:02:20 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:25:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #203 >Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:34:00 -0600 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #203 Dear Alfred, This work stirs me to call you. How could I tell you of the waves of humanity that will burst forth from our star. Such a flower of loss and death will be the fate of the first wave. The second wave will land on sweeter surface and begin again to replicate the Earth as it will be for us and as it was for them. The third wave will be as epic as the preceeding ones, no less as great in intent and endeavour. The fourth wave of humanity will have assurances and help to survive, to prosper so well in the vastness of space and time. All the while, the Earth pod, having cast forth its seeds, will wither each time to renew itself once more, each time much longer than the last. Is this such a vision as I see, is it true fate for me? Is it what will be or just a pattern of humanity? Mark me now, for I have been where humans could never go, have seen what only I have seen and done only what I have done. Nothing more could ever be than what it is that I have come to see. I have seen the living light out between the stars. I have journeyed so far that only my mind could accept the vastness of it all. Within this finite universe that we perceive, I have been beyond it all, beyond what even I could have ever possibly have been. Yet, her and now, I sit in this dismal world, watching and knowing of the greatness, the glory and the power that allowed my pitiful self to have been at all. By chance I have come to be. By chance will I come to go. By chance and by luck, are the factors of my life such as I know. I could not possibly tell you of my pain and suffering, endured so heartlessly, so lost. For every tear that can not fall, a thousand lives I have lived and know it all. I have seen and been where ever I wanted to go for two short years that had become lifetimes for me. A thousand years of culture, a hundred years of practical service, and countless little things I have done during my time. Ihave no idea of the total effect of my singular life. I can only know that by watching the societies and worlds as they change around me. But, every once in a while a little reminder rises up out of the past and declares the reality of it all to me. Only then could I know by the flashback rush of experience. Oh just how real it really is, how true and perfect I have been to have brought this about. To see another human's life as testimony to my work can be no less than absolute. YES!!!!!! If only you could see for a moment of what my eyes have seen. Take care for now, Cathy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 12 Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Rob Irving <RobIrving@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:49:01 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:27:42 -0500 Subject: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:11:48 -0500 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso Bob, > Except for a contribution from Paul Fuller the material on > the CD is all from Mike, Philip and me. I'm not in charge of > this project, and I am sure that there is no way that Mike (and > Perhaps Philip) would have let me include anything from Mr. > Irving. A rare compliment, but not deserved as much as say, James Easton, who's excellent research I can see you, Mike, and Phil, also have no intention of including. As self-conferred authorities you are of course expected to embrace facts rather than demonstrate a desperate fear of them. It is obvious from your uncomfortable reaction that Theresa's findings are well worth attention from the rest of us - that is, those of us who don't equate the word "investigation" with "pious myopia". Rob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 12 ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:32:24 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:31:59 -0500 Subject: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release Published on American Computer Company's website December 7. URL: http://www.American-Computer.com/Transcap.htm AMERICAN COMPUTER COMPANY unearths previously unknown electronic device it claims it obtained by analyzing notes about Alien Artifact examined by Bell Labs 50 years ago, notes that were sold ACC by an unnamed source... In an earthshaking Press Release, the American Computer Company, Cranford, NJ http://american-computer.com announced: a) In July of 1947, the Department of the Army Air Force, secured debris from one crashed Aircraft and a complete Aircraft which was landed by occupants trying to determine the status of their comrades from the first crash site. The Aircraft captured by the Air Force are allegedly of ExtraTerrestrial Manufacture, bearing engineering wonders previously unseen by humans. b) As a result of an indepth study of notes and things it purchased from an unnamed source, American Computer Company has announced that it has newly discovered a previously undetected electronic component, one that it feels the Air Force, IBM and Bell Labs overlooked in 1947. The notes were kept about a project involving IBM and AT&T during 1947 who had been hired to analyze the wreckage and the intact spacecraft by the Air Force during July and August of 1947. At least one past analysis of the debris allegedly led to AT&T Bell Labs announcement of the Transistor in September of 1947. Remarkably: ACC has announced that Bell Labs, the Army and Air Force Research Labs, and IBM Research "completely missed one of the key components in the debris they were given to analyze". c) The component American Computer Company discovered, has been dubbed the "Transfer Capacitor". ACC has decided to refer to it as the Transcap or Transcapacitor, and as the "T-CAP" for short. ACC has noticed that it is reserving these names, along with the Transpacitor, as ACC Trademarks and Usage Marks. It has several advanced features heretofor unidentified in the electronics industry, and it is UNRELATED to the Transistor in composition: ACC claimed that the "T-CAP" can store energy in "levels" using a single microelectronic component device that could be manufactured as small as physics permits, having only four fundamental elements (the Transistor has only three), to whit, as small as a small part of a Micron, at the molecular level, smaller even than a single Transistor as are used in today's microchips. ACC said that the energy levels the T-CAP can store can represent mathematical values up to 10 to the 23rd power, and can be recalled, all using only a single Transcap device and a simple circuit design. The Transcap could revolutionize memory devices, as it replaces as many as 50 to 1000 Transistors used in common Memory Chips. A version of the Transcap can be used as a comparator to enable "analog boolean mathematics" as are commonly used in Computers today. As a result, it could revolutionize the size of computers, reducing them to 1/50th to 1/1000th of their size, or increasing memory capacity by 50 to 1000 times in the same space as today's common memory systems. ACC said that the energy levels the Transcap can store, could also be "modulated", and could be configured to represent a "fragment" of information, not just the bits and bytes stored in today's computers. To that extent, it would operate much like a very short piece of "recording tape". ACC's engineers, excited by their find, described the circuit as being "similar in function to the synapses of the brain or the neuro ganglial pill, yet much smaller, more precise and much, much faster." ACC's staff indicated that the Transcap has very little heat transfer in its operation, hence it runs with less than 1000th of the heat dissipation of conventional memory circuits, yet its read cycle (requiring a rewrite for refresh after read) operates in the sub-nanosecond speed range. Power from the Transcap is recycled from read to write cycles, hence it is "highly power efficient", said the Disclosure, with little or no heat emmission, as there is no power loss in the Transcap, unlike the Transistor. In addition, ACC's staff said that the Transcap can also be used as a replacement for "electron valves" (also known as "vacuum tubes") even though an unconventional application, and would be ideal for such applications where Transistors have been unsuccessful. According to ACC, in addition to obvious application in Computers, the Transcap can also be used as a high voltage, unifrequency Oscillator, with applications in Laser, Radio, Microwave, Data Communications, and UltraFrequency devices, possessing features which the Transistor does not: it can store the oscillatory energy and discharge it in sub nanosecond pulses, at voltages upto 80 Megavolt, and Frequencies up to near light wave ranges. The Transcap Patents being prepared by lawyers for ACC's Shadowlake R&D facility, will be filed in weeks to months, and include manufacturing techniques, commercialization and other utility patents that ACC has decided to apply for. ACC has claimed full rights to the device, indicating that "The Air Force, AT&T and Bell Labs had 50 years to discover THIS device in the wreckage, now we have found it, and on the very same basis as with other finds from the wreckage the Air Force proliferated to commercial interests, we are staking a claim in the Transcapacitor!" It was not stated when ACC felt it would be able to bring the Transcap to market, but the company indicated "This time, its going to be mass produced cheaply and made available to the public at minimum cost. It could revolutionize computing, telephony, radio, TV and other electronic components, and we are going to see that it does so to the benefit of Humanity. Our studies have indicated that the Transcap could change the way we transmit signals along wires: by using its energy-modulation signature approach, we might even be able to cram megabits of information per second along ordinary circuits used for dial up telephone lines today at only thousands of bits per second. Who knows, perhaps we'll all save a lot of money, at the very least we are going to open up the Information Superhighway to some Autobahn Speed Traffic and Information flow, rather than the Turtle Race it is today..." ACC indicated that one other use, as a component in small, flat picture tubes, was being investigated at the time of this release. ACC indicated it hoped that the component would become a boon to humanity, and not a "hot potato controlled by a small group of labs licensing it out for the sake of their own self-possessed greed for high fees to the highest bidder...". Initial information has indicated that at least one company, IBM Corporation, may file a protest on the patent, claiming that it "discovered the device first". In response to the rumor, an ACC Spokesperson said: "IBM always says things like that." For more information, contact the Company. ====== END OF PRESS RELEASE ====== Prepared by -- John Schwartz Superior Media Services Newark, NJ 07102 908-931-1200 ============================= REPRINTED at the request of public interests. (c) 1997, 1998 American Computer Company. All Rights Reserved. May Not Be Commercially Reproduced.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 12 Wang Update On ACC's Transcapicitor From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:40:18 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:37:04 -0500 Subject: Wang Update On ACC's Transcapicitor Received via "Doc in Phoenix" December 12 at 05.42 local time: ******* Doc in Phoenix [Begin RFC-822 message.] From: "acsa" <acsa@ix.netcom.com> To: <authority@webtv.net> Subject: Re: ED WANG ATTENTION Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:10:44 -0500 ohhh, mucho mas to come.... you'd be shocked if you heard what I'd heard, today. (Did you happen to notice they, ACC, are selling a 200MHZ MMX Pentium PC System with all the trimmings for $789? Its on their home page... Is this possible?) Here is the scuttlebutt from http://american-computer.com (pass this email on, verbatim...) Story #1: The Air Force's lawyer was at American Computer today with a subpoena - but were escorted out of the building by AC Security empty handed. Apparently, as he was leaving, Jack Shulman met him in the lobby and gave him two blue "American Computer" coffee mugs and a 1998 "American Computer" Daily Organizer, with a smile on his face. Also: a number of splinter groups inside the Air Force have set up a "fan club" and are writing emails to ACC every day encouraging them on... I read one of them today when I stopped by to meet with my contact. Story#2: AC has received a number of telephonic death threats against Jack Shulman since the T-CAP announcement and since his appearance on Jeff Rense's Sightings "on the Radio" last week. Story#3: http://american-computer.com/ was "active hacked" by one of the large Internet Suppliers two nights ago, trying to redirect their page elsewhere. Story#4: Four of the top 10 PC Companies have sent active "buyout proposals" to American Computer over the course of the last week, including, reportedly, Hewlett Packard, Compaq, and IBM. Story#5: At least two semiconductor firms have contacted AC in the past two days and have opened discussions with them about licensing the Transpacitor for manufacture. Story#6: Merrill Lynch is (more than) rumored to have contacted American about trying to get them to go Public "RIGHT NOW!" At least one individual has filed a complaint with the Securities and Exchange Commission saying that the publicity about American Computer in the last week has been so much, that it is the same thing as if the company were "going public without a registration statement" with the SEC. I don't know what the SEC is doing about this, although I have heard they may be asking the Attorney General to investigate if American Computer has sold any public stock (I understand that they have not, and do not have any active plans to go public that they could discuss with anyone). Story#7: One of the major news wires is spinning off the "Transpacitor Announcement" onto 4000+ mainstream news sources on Friday or Monday, without American's knowledge. Story#8: American may produce a limited run of Transpacitor storage cards and sell them in a limited run of Laptop computers, so as to demonstrate their capability, some time next year. I understand that a very simple mock-up of the device is already functioning in their test lab. Apparently, it is relatively easy to build, so long as size is not an issue. They are expecting to be able to produce a "nanostorage unit" based on the product that will be able to store over 4 GB of information in a single panel about the size of a 128 MB SD-RAM panel as are used in today's PCs, and a "Solid State Storage disk drive" that will hold 64GB in the space of one of today's 3.5" PC Hard Drives, and will have no "seek time" because there are no Disk Heads in the device. (I am being leaked some pretty interesting technical data...) Apparently a semiconductor fabrication facility is already working on the planning for an effort to "grow" the wafers needed to make the storage device a reality. It was explained to me that it takes between 3 and 6 months to get these wafers up to what they call a "reliable yield (rate)". I have heard that Seagate Corporation, Maxtor Corp and Western Digital have expressed a keen interest in this variation of the device, as it represents a 20 fold increase in speed over a hard disk drive, and about an 8 times capacity increase. I understand that the device includes a small rechargeable Lithium Ion battery that reads and rewrites the entire contents of the drive every hour, giving the information on it a lifespan of about 5 years, before the battery has to be changed. The longer the unit is powered on on a PC, the longer the battery lifespan, too. It is reportedly much more accurate than electromagnetic storage such as disk or tape, with almost a Zero error rate!! And, there is no limitation to its internal organization, as it does not have the "concentric circles" that Hardware Disk Drives do - just a continuous stream of storage, making it much more suitable for applications such as Data Base Managers! (My contact is compiling a whole data sheet on the remarkable device). Story#9: The Transpacitor "Nanostore" could replace the Digital Video Disk! If manufactured in a small, flat package with a built in battery, a 15 GB unit could hold as much information as is needed for an upto 3.5 hour long high definition Movie, yet be about 1.5 times the size and twice the thickness of a Floppy Diskette! And, it would be able to store the movie for about 10 Years before its built in battery needed replacing. It would only weigh a few ounces! Story#10: The Transpacitor, aside from replacing 50 to 1000 transistors in a storage circuit, reducing it in complexity, can be built MUCH SMALLER than even the smallest micro-transistors, as it has a much "less sophisticated" atomic structure than the Transistor. Holy Moley! -- Ed
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 12 Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:02:49 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:25:53 -0500 Subject: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >From: Rob Irving <RobIrving@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:49:01 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >A rare compliment, but not deserved as much as say, James Easton, >who's excellent research I can see you, Mike, and Phil, also have >no intention of including. As self-conferred authorities you are >of course expected to embrace facts rather than demonstrate a >desperate fear of them. It is obvious from your uncomfortable >reaction that Theresa's findings are well worth attention from >the rest of us - that is, those of us who don't equate the word >"investigation" with "pious myopia". >Rob Rob, As I said, I'm not the one making the decisions. If you, James, or anyone else would like to submit material for postion on our web site, we are happy to consider it. I'm not sure why you characterize my reaction to Theresa's work as "un=E7omfortable". I'm perfectly comfortable. "pious myopia", wow what a phrase. Wish I'd thought of it!!! Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 12 Re: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' From: entropy@brighid.sunflower.com [Tom Genereaux] Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:38:06 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:06:20 -0500 Subject: Re: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' > Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:09:22 -0500 > From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> > Subject: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' > To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net> > Errol wrote, > >Time to call closure on The Birds... > When Arnold was shown the sketch - it seems this was in August 1947 > during his investigation of the Maury Island incident - he reportedly > claimed that the object depicted looked exactly like one he had seen > in the formation of nine, allegedly the second bottom in the echelon. > As Kathleen and others will know, Brown was killed when his B-52 > crashed on the return trip from meeting Arnold. The B-52 wasn't flown in prototype form until 1952-3, and both of the prototypes survived the test program, winding up in the outdoor storage area of Wright-Pat until the 1960's, when they were scrapped. The B-52A variant incorporated major changes from the XB52 and YB52 designs - Boeing had originally designed a bubble canopy and in-line seating for the pilot and co-pilot. This was changed to side-by-side seating in the 3 A/C designated as A models. All three aircraft are accounted for, no losses due to crashes. Rollout of the A model took place in 1954, with a first flight that year. The B model is the first of the in-service 52's, flying and entering service in 1955. It is conceivable the A/C refered to is a C-52, a short-lived modification (6(?) - I need to check my notes, it could have been as few as 3, or as many as 14) of the C-47, aka DC-3. Just a nit in the interest of historical accuracy.... Tom G.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 12 Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:06:37 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:28:21 -0500 Subject: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:06:58 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net> [Dennis Stacy] >Subject: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Out of curiousity, though...you're on record on this list as >defending a non-literal/physical interpretation of UFOs and >aliens in general, and abductions in particular. At the same >time, however, you continue to (seemingly) defend the physical >reality of the alien autopsy film. >I'm not asking you to make an either/or choice here, I'm just >curious as to how you reconcile the two opposite points of view? > >Dennis Dennis, Our "uninvited guests", whatever they are, can have physical bodies whether they are space aliens, time travellers, dimension jumpers, elves, trolls, kobalds, whatever...... I never said or intended to imply that they were non-physical creatures. These are not opposite points of view, and no reconciliation is required. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 12 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:48:42 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:30:14 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) >Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:48:35 -0700 >Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:53:01 -0500 >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >> Corso CLAIMS to have the right military credentials. That is >> quite different from actually having them. >> Be skeptical. Check some of the places Corso claims to have gone >> and some of the people that he claimed to meet with. Not only >> were some of him meetings an impossibility but he doesn't get >> people's names or job descriptions correct. >> Sorry I can't go into more detail at this time. >> Rebecca > Rebecca this is a rather tall claim here. Please provide more > information about Corso's "non-military" record as it becomes > available to you. I didn't say that Corso had no military record. I said he made claims about his military record which seem to be a little different than the record via FOIA by Larry Bryant. Not too big of deal. It has been claimed by Corso and/or Birnes that there wasn't enough room in the book to provide documentation for Corso's claims. I'm skeptical of that claim. I feel Corso can't back up many of his claims. That's my opinion. It's not up to me, you, or anyone -- other than Corso and/or Birnes -- to provide documentation for their claims. Until they do so, I don't have to take them seriously. Some of the specific and some of the not so specific claims relating to people, places and events have been shown to be an impossibility. Forgot about the back engineering claims and look at what was said about specific people and you will find all sorts of mistakes. Those mistakes, IMO, should not have been made and don't appear to have been corrected in other printings. So, do we just make Birnes the scapegoat? Or do we say, well, Corso is old, perhaps that's why these mistakes are in the book? How many excuses do we allow a man who offers up a wild tale, of which he's the hero, and offers not one iota proof for anything that he says? Maybe you can make excuses for him, but I don't have to and I won't. It's an interesting story but unfortunately Corso's tale just adds to so much of the garbage that already litters this field. Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 12 Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Theresa Carlson <Tcarlson1@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:06:42 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:40:54 -0500 Subject: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:11:48 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso Bob, > You speak of a "peer group" and say I was >not part of it. Since I have done more work on this film than >anyone other than, perhaps, yourself, what criteria did you use >to select this "peer group"? I wanted other people that had some knowledge of image analysis or image problem troubleshooting and didn't have a personal investment in the footage one way or the other. And more importantly, I wanted people that did NOT state I was crying wolf prior to looking at the material. >If this is a real concern, and you really want my feedback, how >much does one more copy cost? I did want your feedback in the beginning, though after seeing you dismiss it without looking at it, I no longer feel your feedback is valid. > They could be clones, in which case I would expect them >to be very similar. >But both (and Philip please >correct me if I am wrong) have said the bodies looked different. Okay. Is that like having cake....? And what about your own examination of the first autopsy? In November of 1995 you announced that Mr. Santilli was going to be giving you a copy of the first autopsy footage to examine. Has this copy arrived yet? >I haven't addressed this because you have not shared it with me. Mark posted it on his website. You need to look at it on the Alien Autopsy footage video though to really see it. The explanations given for it so far don't fit. The "bloodlike substance" (I got in trouble for calling it blood already) drips and splatters are inconsistent from scene to scene, reel to reel. The explanation Joe C. gave for it, which in laymens terms is that the area of the film was washed out, doesn't work because the camera operator moves around the room, and these areas are seen from different angles and land in different parts of the frames. But then Joe did also say that he didn't have a copy of the Alien Autopsy Footage video to check it out and it may have worked if it were just some stills. >No. Except for a contribution from Paul Fuller the material on >the CD is all from Mike, Philip and me. I'm not in charge of >this project, and I am sure that there is no way that Mike (and >Perhaps Philip) would have let me include anything from Mr. >Irving. This is good to know. We can then expect it will likely be just a rehash of the same thing as the book contains. I personally handed Philip copies of the background I turned up myself on the labels, so that isn't a good excuse for not including it. But as you say, you aren't in charge of it, so there is nothing you can do. Will you be endorsing/promoting it? >I'm doing what I can. I don't see why it is up to me to >reform UFOlogy. No one would expect you to reform Ufology. But if you could fix one small part it could only help. And others might fix a part, and so on. From another message: >As for "blemishes" lining up, how do you know that these dark >areas are "blemishes"? I don't know what they are, so how do >you? I interpret them as "shadows" myself, and if you really >look closely at Theresa's overlays, only some of them sort of >line up. If they are shadows on similar legs, this is just >what I would expect. The images in the released autopsy are pretty clear. You really think those are shadows on the leg? Considering where the light is in the room, how could there be shadows there? Regards, Theresa
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 12 Re: UFO UpDate: Strange Dreams From: c549597@showme.missouri.edu [Barbara Becker] Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:11:16 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:42:43 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Strange Dreams > Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:33:43 -0800 > From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Strange Dreams > List members, > I've had a series of really strange dreams. They're almost like > instructional videos. I'm not sure of the setting but I'm either > watching a large screen TV or working on a computer. Probably the > latter since it is an interactive system. There is an instructor; > however, I never see him. His messages are either aural or > telepathic. > It's very real and very technical; but, I am not told the purpose. > The first one was about time. More precisely, it was about time > tampering. The end result was a three step process whereby I could > recognize an event which was the result of someone or something moving > in time to alter reality. I don't consciously remember the details; > but, it was a three step process and the first step was written in > red. <G> All I remember was it was intuitively obvious once I had > seen it. I have the feeling that I remember it on some level. > The last dream was about dimension trapping. I can't really explain > that phrase other than being locked in a dimension whereby I could > turn 90 degrees and still be facing the same way. The implication was > that there was a way to enter other dimensions beyond our three; but, > we were intentionally trapped in our three. Again it was very > detailed and I'm sure I remember it all on some level. > These are absolutely the most bizarre dreams I have ever had. (except > ET ones. <G>) I'm very curious if anyone else has been experiencing > this in the past few days. Or, are these the first stages of > dementia? > Terry Dear Terry, No, its not dementia! :) (At least I hope not because if you have it so do I!) Over the years I have had quite a few "instructional" dreams very similar to yours. I take them seriously and employ what I am taught, (of course Im still not too good with the telekinesis stuff!) What I have learned has changed my life and I am very happy with it. Dont be put off by anyone who would need to invalidate you or your dreams. There are a lot of heavy duty egos on this board who say "My experience is bigger than your experinece." Your dreams and experineces are just as important as everyone elses. I hope you will continue to relate them. Barbara
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 12 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:50:11 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:48:05 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:56:18 -0500 >Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:52:55 -0500 >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > You might want to give better hints than that. I wasn't trying to be cute and I should not have typed it. On the UFOMIND site you can locate some of the discrepancies in the book, however, I did not find the specific ones I was being so cagey about. Check http://www.ufomind.com/people/c/corso for some attempts to verify data provided in the book. Some stuff checks out, some doesn't. > That the book he co-authored is filled with errors is nothing new. My > understanding is that the manner in which the book was handled by Birnes > and the publisher is resulting in some sort of legal action, which won't > help its credibility too much. I won't make Birnes a scapegoat, Corso's name is on that book too. > But I think that it can be shown that Corse served in the Miliary, and was > well thought of by many on the conservative/anti-communist side of the > political spectrum. He testified before Congress on the issue of Korean > POWs and that at least lends some credibility to his background. So, he served in the military. He held relatively important positions. He did brave and corageous acts. Somehow, that doesn't add up to his handling of alien technology from a filing cabinet in the Pentagon. One has to wonder why some documentation of his military career wasn't provided in the book? Sure we see pictures, but it was up to ufologists to file the FOIA to get some of his record. Does it match what he claims in the book? > I think > that we can be skeptical of many of the facets in his book, and that may > prejudice out entire view of his allegations. Where does one draw the line? > But without knowing what > Corso's notes contained, it is impossible to determine how much of the > story that is told is from Corso, and how much was "filler" created by > Birnes. I am indeed skeptical of many issues raised by the book, but I'm > not sure his credentials should be called into question. Corso had notes? He claims to have notes. He must not have had very good ones, as some mistakes were made. Obvious mistakes to people who know when buildings were built and when people died. Maybe not so obvious to the general population, but ones I can check out, once pointed in the right direction. Maybe Birnes couldn't read Corso's notes and that's why these mistakes were made? But I wonder why the mistakes weren't corrected from the proof or even later editions. Surely, Corso has read the book and should know these details are wrong. > On the other hand, if you've got the goods on him, perhaps we need to begin > an effort now to make sure he doesn't get buried at National Cemetary . . . > . . . <g> Nah, when his time comes, he probably has a right to be buried there. I would rather see buried are the new myths he has created for ufology, not to mention history. Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 12 Re: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:37:25 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:30:08 -0500 Subject: Re: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' Regarding... >From: entropy@brighid.sunflower.com [Tom Genereaux] >Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:38:06 +0000 >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' Tom wrote: >The B-52 wasn't flown in prototype form until 1952-3... >Just a nit in the interest of historical accuracy.... Tom, Although Kathleen mentions a B-52 in the article which I referenced, it seems this is simply a typo and the plane was a B-25 bomber. Historical accuracy hopefully restored! James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 12 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:30:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:28:51 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] >Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:50:11 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:56:18 -0500 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:52:55 -0500 >>Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >> You might want to give better hints than that. >I wasn't trying to be cute and I should not have typed it. On the >UFOMIND site you can locate some of the discrepancies in the >book, however, I did not find the specific ones I was being so >cagey about. Check >http://www.ufomind.com/people/c/corso >for some attempts to verify data provided in the book. Some stuff >checks out, some doesn't. No argument from me on that. >> That the book he co-authored is filled with errors is nothing new. My >> understanding is that the manner in which the book was handled by Birnes >> and the publisher is resulting in some sort of legal action, which won't >> help its credibility too much. >I won't make Birnes a scapegoat, Corso's name is on that book >too. Corso is of course going to held responsible for the contents of the book. That, however, does not translate to his having full knowledge of its contents prior to publication. >> But I think that it can be shown that Corse served in the Miliary, and was >> well thought of by many on the conservative/anti-communist side of the >> political spectrum. He testified before Congress on the issue of Korean >> POWs and that at least lends some credibility to his background. >So, he served in the military. He held relatively important >positions. He did brave and corageous acts. Somehow, that doesn't >add up to his handling of alien technology from a filing cabinet >in the Pentagon. One has to wonder why some documentation of his >military career wasn't provided in the book? Sure we see >pictures, but it was up to ufologists to file the FOIA to get >some of his record. Does it match what he claims in the book? >> I think >> that we can be skeptical of many of the facets in his book, and that may >> prejudice out entire view of his allegations. >Where does one draw the line? Good question, and one that will cause most people to write this book off as unsubstantiated nonsense. The question that many are trying to answer is why a man with such a career history would want to make such allegations. From my understanding his income from the book was very small, so the profit motive seems to be missing. This is especially true considerring his age. >> But without knowing what >> Corso's notes contained, it is impossible to determine how much of the >> story that is told is from Corso, and how much was "filler" created by >Corso had notes? He claims to have notes. He must not have had >very good ones, as some mistakes were made. Obvious mistakes to >people who know when buildings were built and when people died. >Maybe not so obvious to the general population, but ones I can >check out, once pointed in the right direction. >Maybe Birnes couldn't read Corso's notes and that's why these >mistakes were made? But I wonder why the mistakes weren't >corrected from the proof or even later editions. Surely, Corso >has read the book and should know these details are wrong. I wasn't aware that a second printing had taken place, but you may know more than I in that regard. Corso had a large file folder of information that he took to Roswell several years before the book was released, and he met with a number of researchers to discuss his connection to the Roswell incident. From my understanding, he didn't provide details to those who attended, and his presentation wasn't well received. That fact that he had a folder of material can be confirmed by those who attended, but its contents remain a mystery and there's no proof that it related to the contects of his book. As to the accuracy of the notes that Birnes had been sent, we would have to see them to see if they were accurately interpreted or not. >> On the other hand, if you've got the goods on him, perhaps we need to begin >> an effort now to make sure he doesn't get buried at National Cemetary . . . >> . . . <g> >Nah, when his time comes, he probably has a right to be buried >there. I would rather see buried are the new myths he has created >for ufology, not to mention history. Good. We've had enough controversy over burials lately. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 12 Re: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:46:53 PST Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:25:52 -0500 Subject: Re: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' > Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:09:22 -0500 > From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> > Subject: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' > To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net> > Harold T. Wilkins' > coverage of the Arnold story and the Maury Island case is a > historical perspective I had long forgotten and I rediscovered a quote > which Wilkins attributes to Arnold, in which Arnold reportedly states, > "At my home, I have been visited by unseen entities whom I believe to > be pilots of these weird disks. They were invisible to me and made no > attempt to communicate. But I was aware of their presence because I > could see my rugs and furniture sink down under their weight, as they > walked about the room, or sat on various objects in the room". > Did Arnold ever repeat or expand on this reported claim? Not only did Arnold not repeat or expand on this claim, he never made it in the first place. I knew Ken Arnold, and in June 1977, while in his company, I asked him about the above quote. He said this was the first time he'd heard it, and nothing of the sort had ever happened. He added that many things said about him in print were not true. I might add as well that those words don't sound like any Arnold would have spoken. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 12 Re: Strange Dreams From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:43:02 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:37:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Strange Dreams Barbara Becker wrote: > From: c549597@showme.missouri.edu [Barbara Becker] > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:11:16 -0600 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Strange Dreams [snip] > Dont be put off by anyone who would need to invalidate you or > your dreams. There are a lot of heavy duty egos on this board > who say "My experience is bigger than your experinece." Your > dreams and experineces are just as important as everyone elses. > I hope you will continue to relate them. Thanks, Barbara. I've had a lot of those late night pepperoni pizza dreams but these are different. I guess those who would attempt to invalidate them simply have not experienced them. Since my posting, I have received several emails from other people who experienced similar dreams. Unlike most nightmares, I look forward to these dreams -- they're somehow very fulfilling. Terry
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 12 Re: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:36:29 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:32:43 -0500 Subject: Re: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' Tom Genereaux wrote: > From: entropy@brighid.sunflower.com [Tom Genereaux] > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:38:06 +0000 > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' [snip] > Just a nit in the interest of historical accuracy.... > Tom G. Hey, Tom! Welcome to the list!! Great to see you here!! Take your shoes off and stay awhile. Are you still with Teri Garr? Listmembers, Tom has been a technical consultant on some very interesting projects. (nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more) Tom, what do you think of American Computer's <alleged> transpacitor? <g> (see http://www.american-computer.com/Transcap.htm ) Terry
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 12 Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:13:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:43:12 -0500 Subject: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:06:42 -0500 >From: Theresa Carlson <Tcarlson1@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Theresa, OK. I'm a very patient person as many will attest, but you are really starting to piss me off. >> You speak of a "peer group" and say I was >>not part of it. Since I have done more work on this film than >>anyone other than, perhaps, yourself, what criteria did you use >>to select this "peer group"? >I wanted other people that had some knowledge of image analysis >or image problem troubleshooting and didn't have a personal >investment in the footage one way or the other. >And more importantly, I wanted people that did NOT state I was >crying wolf prior to looking at the material. I said I was tired of people telling me that the smoking gun had been found by you, and the autopsy was obviously a hoax and I should stop wasting my time. Yes, I compared this to the "boy who cried wolf" story, because it happened over and over and each "proof" evaporated when exposed to scrutiny. The original leg overlay did just the same. >>If this is a real concern, and you really want my feedback, how >>much does one more copy cost? >I did want your feedback in the beginning, though after seeing >you dismiss it without looking at it, I no longer feel your >feedback is valid. If you no longer feel my feedback is valid, why write me a long note asking for it? Why go into this long thing at all if you feel I have nothing to add? I offered to pay the expense of making me a copy of your video since you said the reason you didn't send me one was that you couldn't afford to make any more copies. That was a sincere offer, and it stands. If, like Jose Escamilla, you are scared to let me actually see your work, then I have no option but to dismiss it. If it can't stand the light of scrutiny, then it fails. Period. >And what about your own examination of the first autopsy? In >November of 1995 you announced that Mr. Santilli was going to be >giving you a copy of the first autopsy footage to examine. >Has this copy arrived yet? No, the tape has not been given to me. >>I'm doing what I can. I don't see why it is up to me to >>reform UFOlogy. >No one would expect you to reform Ufology. But if you could fix >one small part it could only help. And others might fix a part, >and so on. And the same goes for you. If you want me to take you and your work seriously, share it with me. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 12 Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Rob Irving <RobIrving@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:08:26 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:50:00 -0500 Subject: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:02:49 -0500 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso Bob, > As I said, I'm not the one making the decisions. If you, James, > or anyone else would like to submit material for postion on our > web site, we are happy to consider it. You didn't save it two years ago? Geez... your's and Easton's Web-sites should do lunch. > "pious myopia", wow what a phrase. Wish I'd thought of it!!! Fair's fair, I haven't seen the CD-ROM yet... I'm thinking I'll save "devoutly scotomic" in case I'm asked to review it ;} Rob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 A Mourning Smile... From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:01:00 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:01:00 -0500 Subject: A Mourning Smile... I know who sent me this - I'm not including attribution, the reason for which will be obvious to long-time subscribers..... ebk "My Lord, I have a cunning plan." - Sod-off Baldrick "Baldrick, you wouldn't recognize a subtle plan if it painted itself purple and danced naked on a harpsicord singing 'subtle plans are here again'." - Edmund Blackadder ebk ________________________________________________________________ [Header removed - ebk] This is an important announcement that I feel that I have to bring to this newsgroup, as a partiot of this Great country, the United States of America. I am an employee of the Central Intelligence Agency, working in a department that controls all intelligence and communications with other employees of the agency. Recently, during a routine installation of network software on our PC terminals, the file transfer protocol server returned to me an e-mail from an executive officer (one of the highest positions within the Agency). This mail was from this executive officer to an anonymous mail address, which when we ran our mail tracker, was not located. The mail contained a transcript of a meeting which the executive officer had chaired, and took place on Saturday, 26th April, 1997. For security reasons, I was not allowed to remove the transcript from the building, or mail it to my home account, due to the stringent security which is in force within the buildings. This transcript contained instructions to several "G-Men" who are taking part in a big conspiracy. When I mean big, I'm talking world-changing, here. Apparently, on Monday, 1st December, 1997, President Bill Clinton plans to broadcast, to the nation and the world, the news that the USA is conducting, and has been conducting since the end of World War II experiments on technology which can only be classified as extra-terrestrial: not from this world. Not only have the government been experimenting with technology, but they have also acquired many different "lab specimens", as the transcript puts it, and have created hybrid "creatures". The transcript does not go into any further details about this subject. This announcement would create wide-spread panic and disillusionment across the population of the world. The executive officers have decided that this cannot be allowed to happen. The transcript then goes on to say that the White House will be the subject of a terrorist attack by an unknown milita group, during which the President will be fatally wounded. His death shall occur during his removal from the bomb scene to the nearest hospital. After the explosion, two patsies will be rounded up, known collaborators with an Islamic fundamentalist group who are known for their terrorist activities within the USA. The transcript then goes on to list the code-names of the operation and the names of those involved. I have e-mailed this message to yu via a mail address in U.K. to preserve my anonyminity. If my identity is revealed I am in danger of being "removed". Naturally I do not want this to happen. I leave you, with a heavy heart and the knowlege that if their is a large enough outcry, this tragedy can still be averted. ________________________________________________________________ Blackadder: "Right, Baldrick, let's try again, shall we? This is called adding. If I have two beans, & then I add two more beans, what do I have?" Baldrick: "Some beans." Blackadder: "Yes...& no. Let's try again, shall we? I have two beans, then I add two more beans. What does that make?" Baldrick: "A very small casserole." Blackadder: "Baldrick, the ape creatures of the Indus have mastered this. Now try again. One, two, three, four. So how many are there?" Baldrick: "Three." Blackadder: "What?" Baldrick: "And that one." Blackadder: "Three...& that one. So if I add that one to the three, what will I have?" Baldrick: "Some beans." Blackadder: "Yes. To you, Baldrick, the Renaissance was something that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Bright Skies 5 From: bikebob <bikebob@Walden.MO.NET> [Bob Soetebier] Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:09:46 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:02:13 -0500 Subject: Bright Skies 5 Just wanted to be sure you all were aware that Part 5 of Harry Mason's "Bright Skies" article series is now available on-line on the "NEXUS" magazine we site at: http://www.peg.apc.org/~nexus/ When you get on the Nexus web site, click on "Current Issue" [Vol. 5, No.1; Dec. 97 - Jan. 98] and scroll down to the "Bright Skies/Part 5" article. (If you have not done so already, you can also read the previous four parts of Harry Mason's "Bright Skies" article series by clicking on "Back Issues." --- At the same time, I'd certainly encourage one and all to subscribe to the hard-copy version of Duncan Road's excellent "NEXUS" mag., too!) [BTW...Duncan Road's (editor of "NEXUS") "PERMISSION-TO-REPRODUCE POLICY" -- contained at the bottom of the magazine's masthead -- states: "While reproduction and dissemination of the information in NEXUS is actively encouraged, anyone caught making a buck out of it, without our express permission, will be in trouble when we catch them!"] Harry Mason's "Bright Skies" article series postulates (with some rather intriguing evidentiary research) on the possible connections between recent (since 1993, right up to the end of 1997...as of this writing) "fireball" events (in Australia, and elsewhere,) electromagnetic offensive-weapons technology, the Aum Suprem Truth (Aum Shinrikyo) sect, the Kobe (Japan) earthquake, the Oklahoma City "bombing," the downing of TWA-800 airplane, and more. Well worth the time taken to read through it all! Bob Soetebier Tailwinds to you... See you ON the road! /// BICYCLE BOB /// bikebob@mo.net
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s From: jpeterson@polaristel.net [Candy Peterson] Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 21:54:21 PST Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:24:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >Subject: re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:07:11 -0800 >> From: jpeterson@polaristel.net [Candy Peterson] >> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 97 18:44:02 PST >> Doesn't it seem likely that the *windows* -- which are reportedly >> preferred by the "abductors" as the passageway out of the house >> -- would be the temporarily altered or de-materialized physical >> substances, rather than the beings or the humans? Inanimate, >> single-substance plane surfaces versus complex living organisms? >If you have a case where this sort of thing has occurred, it >would be appropriate to apply a variety of tests to the object >reportedly "passed through". Assuming what you suggest actually >occurred, it would be reasonable to expect that some level of >physical change in the material might be detectable. Such changes >might include embedded foreign material or air, It has been suggested that abductees get X-rayed within a few days of their abduction experience to look for air in their abdominal cavities, IF they suspect an invasive procedure has been performed. Also, maybe the "alien implants" we're discovering inside people are exactly these telltale detectable materials! >isotopic / >chemical changes, magnetic field changes on metallic materials >such as doorknobs, radioactivity, etc. >To the best of my knowledge, no such tests have ever been made, >despite the possibility that whether it is the witness or the >material being made permeable, some trace of the event will be >found. Such evidence would go a long way toward validating the >physical reality of that component of the abduction experience. >Any thoughts on the types of tests that might be made? This sounds like a natural for further research. One would think most of the involved windows, doors, and walls/ceilings are still available. Unfortunately, destroying them for science would be an expensive undertaking for investigators, and very *invasive* for the homeowners. Some of the tests for magnetic properties, radiation, or chemical changes in the paints might not be so involved. But how practical would it be to remove whole sections of window, framing, drywall, siding, hardware, and so on for extensive testing -- including those pesky experimental controls from elsewhere in the building? I think we need some deep pockets out there who can step up to the plate to help fund these kinds of undertakings. [Ha!] Speaking of undertakings...cattle mutilations and crop circles provide us with lots of easily harvested and testable material... Will we next see a wave of *window* mutilations and *wall* circles? humorously, --Candy Peterson Minnesota MUFON Web Page <http://www.wavefront.com/~jhenry/index.html>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 News Briefing Wraps Galileo's Spectacular Primary From: NASANews@hq.nasa.gov Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:42:57 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:26:17 -0500 Subject: News Briefing Wraps Galileo's Spectacular Primary Douglas Isbell Headquarters, Washington, DC December 12, 1997 (Phone: 202/358-1753) Jane Platt Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA (Phone: 818/354-5011) NOTE TO EDITORS: N97-91 NEWS BRIEFING WRAPS GALILEO'S SPECTACULAR PRIMARY MISSION; JOURNEY CONTINUES WITH CLOSE EUROPA FLYBY Just six hours after NASA's Galileo spacecraft makes its closest-ever pass above Jupiter's icy moon Europa, scientists and engineers will present highlights of the spacecraft's primary mission and preview its two-year extended mission at a press briefing. The briefing, to be held on Tuesday, Dec. 16 at 1 p.m. EST, also will feature new images from Galileo's previous Europa flyby on Nov. 6, the final encounter of the primary mission. The briefing will originate from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA, and will be carried live on NASA Television, with two-way question-and-answer capability for reporters at participating NASA Centers. Galileo concluded its historic primary mission on Dec. 7 after spending two years studying Jupiter, its magnetosphere and its four largest moons. The spacecraft immediately embarked on a two-year extension, called the Galileo Europa Mission, with eight planned Europa flybys, four Callisto flybys and one or two Io encounters, depending on spacecraft health. Scientists hope to learn more about the tantalizing prospect that liquid oceans may lie underneath Europa's icy crust. The first flyby of the Galileo Europa Mission will take place on Dec. 16 at 7:03 a.m. EST, at an altitude of only 124 miles (200 kilometers) above Europa, with the signal reaching Earth at 7:49 a.m. EST. This will be the closest approach to any planetary body by the Galileo spacecraft. During the primary mission, Galileo returned about one gigabyte of data and hundreds of high-resolution pictures. At the briefing, scientists will summarize key findings from the spacecraft's abundant harvest of scientific information, including: Ganymede's magnetic field Volcanic ice flows and melting or "rafting" on Europa's surface that support the premise of liquid oceans underneath Studies of water vapor, lightning and aurora on Jupiter The discovery of a hydrogen and carbon dioxide atmosphere on Callisto The presence of metallic cores in Europa, Io and Ganymede and the lack of evidence for such a core in Callisto High volcanic activity on Io, with dramatic changes since the Voyagers The Galileo spacecraft entered orbit around Jupiter on Dec. 7, 1995, becoming the first mission to orbit one of the Solar System's outer planets. It also deployed a parachute-borne probe into Jupiter's outer atmosphere. JPL manages the Galileo mission for NASA's Office of Space Science, Washington, DC. NASA Television is available through GE-2, transponder 9C at 85 degrees west longitude, vertical polarization, with a frequency of 3880 MHz, and audio at 6.8 MHz. The new images will be released on the Galileo Internet home page at the following URL: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/galileo/ -end-
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:22:17 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:38:50 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso Regarding... >Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 09:31:09 +0000 >From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> >Subject: The X-Factor Philip wrote: >I don't know what to msake of Colonel Philip J.Corso and his book >'The Day After Roswell', but Corso was recently interviewed in the >UK-based magazine 'The X-Factor' (issue 25). >One question put to Corso was: >Have you seen the Roswell autopsy video ? >I saw the Roswell footage and I saw some things in it that nobody >could have known about, so maybe that gives it authenticity, I don't >know. I lean towards the opinion that it is authentic, but I can't >really tell you that I'm 100 per cent sure. >What this says about Corso and Ray Santilli's film I'm not sure. Any >comments ? Philip, It's surprising you don't seem to realise just how many of Corso's claims have already been proven to be abject nonsense. Speaking of which, I note the Paragon web site, originally used to sell the "raw" footage, is now selling "Beyond Roswell" and contains a lengthy article by yourself which seems to be a blatant plagiarism, perhaps of course with permission, of Hesemann's 'Nexus' article. Are you somehow unaware that most of the claims you make have equally been proven to be absurd and false? You write: "In April 1996, Bob Shell was contacted by Captain James McAndrew of the United States Air Force". Perhaps you should ask Bob Shell how true this isn't. And that: "Leaders from the 16mm film were shown to Kodak and were found to bear the symbols used by the company during 1927, 1947 and 1967". Bob Shell wrote on CompuServe: To: Rick Monteverde, 76216,2421 22 March 1996 15:58:19 From: BOB SHELL, 76750,2717 This is pure BS! NO LEADER WAS EVER SHOWN OR GIVEN TO KODAK. Leader is specially produced blank film stock, and does not have edge markings at all. What was shown to Kodak was film from the beginning or end of a roll with no images on it, and that is something quite different. Anyone who doesn't know the difference between leader and blank film is obviously not qualified to comment on any technical points about this film. Bob [End] You also write: "Two segments of film with three frames each, were given to phototechnical consultant. Following a thorough physical examination, Shell confirmed that the film samples were indeed 16mm and were shot before 1956. In his opinion, Shell feels that the film is representative of the story touted by Santilli and the cameraman. However, Shell stated that further testing on the film would have to be carried out to be absolutely certain of its authenticity". Aren't we missing something important here... like the fact these frames did not come from the "autopsy" footage? You add that: "According to Santilli's cameraman, the autopsy was carried out by Dr Bronk and Dr Williams. Dr Detlev Bronk was America's leading biophysicist and his name appears on the infamous Majestic-12 documents. [...] It is believed that Dr Williams might have been Dr Parvin Williams, the special assistant to the Surgeon General at Fort Monroe. The fact that his name was mentioned by the cameraman indicates that, at the very least, he has insider knowledge". Ray Santilli says a Dr Williams was involved, but Hesemann has no evidence whatsoever to connect Dr Parvin Williams with the story. This is insider knowledge? In his 'Nexus' article, Hesemann wrote: "Indeed, the corpses found in Roswell were smaller, more slender, and had four or five fingers, according to eyewitnesses. None ever mentioned six fingers. In any case, if the film were a fake, why did those responsible for it not care to read at least one of the many books on this subject or see the excellent TV mini-series, Roswell, by Paul Davies, as shown on Showtime?" You write: "Indeed, the corpses apparently found at the crash-site were smaller, more slender and were reported to have had four or five fingers. However, if the film is a fake, then why didn't the people who made the film read a book on the incident to ensure an accurate representation?" This is nothing but a re-hash of Hesemann's article and his appalling 'research'. As you obviously realise, there are many similar examples here which can be cited. For example, Hesemann wrote: "British UFO and crop circle researcher, Colin Andrews, visited Ray Santilli at his London office on 26th June 1995. He brought with him a Japanese researcher called Johsen Takano (who apparently advises the Japanese Government on UFO related matters) and Dr Hoang Yung Chiang (of the National Research Center for Biotechnology in Taiwan). Following a private viewing of the Santilli footage, both Takano and Chiang told Andrews that they had seen the film before. Takano when his government requested UFO information from the US Government, and Chiang when he visited the CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia". You write: "On 26th June 1995, the British researcher Colin Andrews visited Ray Santilli in the presence of the Japanese researcher Johsen Takano, who advises the Japanese Government in UFO matters, and Dr Hoang-Yung Chiang of the National Research Centre for Biotechnology in Taipeh, Taiwan. [...] After a private viewing, both Takano and Hoang-Yung told Andrews they had seen the film before: Johsen, when his government had requested UFO information from the US Government, which was then brought to Tokyo by a CIA courier; Hoang-Yung, when he had visited the CIA's headquarters in Langley, Virginia". As I pointed out to Hesemann, he, and consequently yourself, have the characters reversed. I explained: "This story is in fact the wrong way round, it was Takano who allegedly visited the CIA HQ. It's also of course complete nonsense and in an attempt to unravel the truth behind these claims, researcher and author, Paul Fuller corresponded at length with Jun-Ichi Takanashi, Chairman of the Japan UFO Science Society. Following Fuller's admirable efforts, it was established that neither Takano and Dr Hoang-Yung Chiang supported Hesemann's claims. Hesemann acknowledges that the Takano and Chiang story has a credibility problem and in a reply to Fuller mentioned that, 'I have read a letter Takano wrote to Colman VonKeviczky where he claims that they bought the original 16mm reels from Ray Santilli to display them in the museum. Of course this claim is not true'. It was Takano who coincidentally took the photographs of the Roswell TV movie model alien, now housed in the Roswell museum, which subsequently - and apparently with no involvement from Takano - were published as "genuine" in the September 1996 issue of Penthouse magazine". I could continue, at length, to demonstrate the woeful 'research' which seems evident here and which many would say illustrates the overall 'competence' of the "International Research Team". If you contend otherwise, perhaps you might now trouble Ray with some of the more 'difficult' questions I've highlighted in the past. Or would that compromise commercial interests? James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:40:54 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:40:01 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:30:35 -0500 > Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:28:51 -0500 > Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Good question, and one that will cause most people to write this > book off as unsubstantiated nonsense. The question that many are > trying to answer is why a man with such a career history would > want to make such allegations. From my understanding his income > from the book was very small, so the profit motive seems to be > missing. This is especially true considerring his age. Can you talk a little more about that?...that's been the subject of a good degree of debate. There have been a lot of questions regarding just exactly how much financial gain Corso and his family stand to achieve from the book. I, personally, have no idea. Where did you hear that Corso's financial gain from book sales was small? Like you, I'm somewhat leary of critics taking refuge in the rather simpleminded contention that Corso fabricated all his UFO/alien claims in his book in order to seek financial gain. If there are other motivations for fabricating such claims for a man of his age in his position it's certainly incumbent on us to find out what they are. ...questions abound. Jared.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 02:09:35 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:47:52 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:30:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:28:51 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso <snip> >> I won't make Birnes a scapegoat, Corso's name is on that book >> too. > Corso is of course going to held responsible for the contents of > the book. That, however, does not translate to his having full > knowledge of its contents prior to publication. Then that is his problem -- not ufology's. <snip> >> Where does one draw the line? > Good question, and one that will cause most people to write this > book off as unsubstantiated nonsense. The question that many are > trying to answer is why a man with such a career history would > want to make such allegations. From my understanding his income > from the book was very small, so the profit motive seems to be > missing. This is especially true considerring his age. I think you are missing the point that I am obviously not making. Why do we have to find a motive for Corso? Sure, his actions beg for a reason. If we can't figure out the reason, does that mean that the book must be true? Maybe he's just a man with some sort of complex or syndrome. Not being a mental health professional, I'd hate to speculate, however, delusional does come to mind. The point is that it isn't really necessary to go to any great lengths to try to make excuses for this man Corso and/or his co-author Birnes. Neither of them included one iota of documentation for the claims they made. Why must we look for a motive? We should we waste our time? >>> But without knowing what >>> Corso's notes contained, it is impossible to determine how much of the >>> story that is told is from Corso, and how much was "filler" created by >> Corso had notes? He claims to have notes. He must not have had >> very good ones, as some mistakes were made. Obvious mistakes to >> people who know when buildings were built and when people died. >> Maybe not so obvious to the general population, but ones I can >> check out, once pointed in the right direction. >> Maybe Birnes couldn't read Corso's notes and that's why these >> mistakes were made? But I wonder why the mistakes weren't >> corrected from the proof or even later editions. Surely, Corso >> has read the book and should know these details are wrong. > I wasn't aware that a second printing had taken place, but you > may know more than I in that regard. There is a version of the book out that does not include the Thurmond forward, doesn't that mean it went into additional printings? > Corso had a large file > folder of information that he took to Roswell several years > before the book was released, and he met with a number of > researchers to discuss his connection to the Roswell incident. I am well aware of that. One of my very good friends from Houston was present at that meeting. I am aware of that folder and the fact that Corso was very protective of it. > From my understanding, he didn't provide details to those who > attended, and his presentation wasn't well received. That fact > that he had a folder of material can be confirmed by those who > attended, but its contents remain a mystery and there's no proof > that it related to the contects of his book. As to the accuracy > of the notes that Birnes had been sent, we would have to see them > to see if they were accurately interpreted or not. When you mentioned notes, I thought you were talking about notes that Birnes had from his days in the military -- perhaps diaries or appointment books -- that might have assisted him in recalling the things he writes about in the book. I think he mentions his notes in the book because I asked Birnes about those notes and if I could see at least one page. I was told on two occasions that he would be happy to show them to me. Birnes claimed that he had a truckload of documents from Corso. Be nice to get a look at those, however I've been waiting since July. My point about the notes (in my assumption you were speaking of the type notes I refer to above and not the notebook he had in Roswell several years ago) is that there is NO proof that Corso has notes from his military days. There is no need to speculate about how Birnes may or may not have interpreted those notes because there is no proof that they exist. Bob Shell remarked the other day that it was not up to him to reform ufology. I happen to disagree with him. It is up to all of us who want to see the study of UFOs advance to reform this field. We need to stop making excuses for people who tell stories without offering proof. It is a waste of our time to chase down the claims of people who refuse to offer documentation for their claims. Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Bob Dean Undergoes Klass Attack From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:52:43 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:59:00 -0500 Subject: Bob Dean Undergoes Klass Attack Source: http://www.parascope.com/index.htm "Cosmic Top Secret" or Cosmic Bunk? UFOlogist Robert Dean Claims "It's Quite Easy To Lie To The American Public," and Demonstrates This Claim To Be True by Philip J. Klass Skeptics UFO Newsletter Reprinted by permission Robert O. Dean, a rising star in the UFO lecture circuit, initially attracted attention by claiming to reveal the 'Cosmic Top Secret' results of an alleged three-year UFO investigation by NATO in the early 1960s. But in his lecture on July 5 at the Roswell 50th anniversary celebration, Dean claims he has found extensive evidence that ETs have been visiting Earth for thousands of years. The evidence: paintings found on the walls of prehistoric caves in northern Spain and in ancient Egyptian tombs. Seemingly, Dean has become America's own Erich von Daniken, who achieved fame with similar claims in his 1968 book, Chariots of the Gods. Examination of Dean's service record confirms that he did serve four years at NATO headquarters from mid-1963 to mid-1967 with the rank of Master Sergeant, as he claims. (Dean entered the Army on April 5, 1950, and retired on Oct. 31, 1976 -- with many decorations for combat service in Korea and later in Vietnam.) But while Dean claims he worked as an "Intelligence Analyst" at NATO headquarters, his military records show his duty assignment there was "Ch. Clk. Lang. Svc. Br." [Chief Clerk Language Service Branch]. During Dean's Roswell talk, he claimed he "was trained as an intelligence analyst." However, Dean's service record does not show he ever received such training. Nor does his service record show any assignments as an 'intelligence analyst' during his entire 26 years in the Army. According to Dean, UFOs flying over Europe during the 1950s and early 1960s almost precipitated World War III. He told his Roswell audience that "large numbers of large metallic, circular objects were flying all over Europe... These things would fly in formations out of the east toward the west over Europe, over the southern coast of England, then they would turn north over the channel and then would disappear off of NATO radars off the Norwegian Sea. For a time the Soviets thought they belonged to us. For a time, we honestly thought they belonged to the Soviets. It became apparent to both of us very quickly that these objects did not belong to either side because of their repeated and continual demonstration of an incredibly advanced technology... they would fly circles around our fighter jets... We didn't know who they were, what they were, why they were here and where they were from." Dean claims that in early 1961 NATO launched a three-year investigation to determine if UFOs posed a possible military threat. The results were contained in a NATO report titled "AN ASSESSMENT (An Evaluation of a Possible Military Threat to Allied Forces in Europe)," which was published in 1964 -- a year after Dean arrived at NATO. The report was given NATO's top security classification -- "Cosmic Top Secret" -- and, with annexes, stood eight inches high. Its contents were considered so sensitive, according to Dean, that only 15 copies of the report were printed. Dean told his Roswell audience that NATO's report revealed that "there had been case after case of [UFO] landings, face-to-face confrontations, invitations to come aboard their ships. It had been going on for some years. It has been going on for centuries." According to Dean, the NATO report included not only in-depth studies by atmospheric physicists, astronomers and astrophysicists, but also by sociologists, historians and theologians. Dean said the report concluded that "there apparently was not a military threat because if... [ETs] were hostile or malevolent, the game would have been up a long time ago." However, Dean reported, NATO officials were -- understandably -- very disturbed by the fact that one of the four types of ETs "looked exactly like we do, and I don't mean close. I mean exactly... The admirals and the generals were terribly troubled by the idea that these guys [ETs] could be walking up and down the corridors of our headquarters and we would never know... that there could be advanced intelligence in our midst and we didn't know who they were, where they were from, why they were here or what they were up to. It drove the military planners up the wall." [SUN Comment: Presumably, NATO headquarters security guards would not admit anyone without appropriate identification passes -- but conceivably the human-like ETs might fabricate counterfeit credentials. One would expect that NATO would quickly have taken steps to enable its security guards to detect counterfeit credentials and to capture any human-like ETs trying to enter NATO headquarters. But Dean made no mention of any such increased security effort.] If NATO did indeed launch its own UFO investigation in the early 1960s, and if its report was classified "Cosmic Top Secret" and only 15 copies were printed to restrict knowledge of its contents, how did a 'lowly' Master Sergeant like Dean gain access to the highly classified report? Very easily, according to Dean. He claims he was on duty at 2 a.m. in NATO's War Room and having trouble staying awake when "an Air Force bird colonel thumped it down on my desk." (In an interview published in the winter 1995 -- 96 issue of UFO Update AZ magazine, Dean said "this Air Force controller, a bird colonel... pulled this thing out of the vault and he said, "here read this. This will wake you up." Not only did Dean claim he once had access to what he calls the most sensitive document in NATO, but he claims that he "read it repeatedly, studied it, pulled the annexes out, looked at the photographs, the autopsy reports...") In the same magazine interview, Dean said he learned from the NATO report that a 100-ft. diameter UFO had crashed in Germany in late 1963 or 1964 and had been recovered, along with 12 ET bodies, by a British Army engineer battalion. The NATO report, according to Dean, included comments of the British pathologist during his examination of the ET bodies. These included: "Holy shit," "Jesus Christ," "My, God, look at this." Dean told his Roswell audience that "I was to learn later -- before I departed [NATO] in 1967 -- that they concluded that we were not merely dealing with visitations from other planets or from other star systems or from other galaxies. They had begun to conclude -- and I learned this later before I retired from the Army in 1976 -- and this is another thing that really shook our scientists and our military people up -- we are apparently dealing with advanced intelligence that seems to be multi-dimensional in their source... Some of the more advanced species, more advanced races were apparently multi-dimensional." Dean said that "when I left the service in 1976, we knew of at least 12 different groups [i.e., types of "aliens"]. I have talked to old cronies, old colleagues who are still involved in government work and they say the latest estimate -- my God -- could be over hundred." [SUN Comment: Seemingly, this tiny planet is a popular tourist attraction for ETs.] On December 2-3, 1994, the Central Intelligence Agency released 79 "National Intelligence Estimates" (NIE), previously classified Top Secret, at a Harvard University conference (which SUN's editor attended). These NIEs, covering the period from 1950 to 1984, were prepared by the CIA in collaboration with the directors of intelligence for the USAF, Army, Navy, Atomic Energy Commission, FBI and National Security Agency (NSA). The NIEs were based on the best available information on the military situation in Europe. Roughly half of the NIEs made public in late 1994 cover the period of 1950 to 1964 -- when Dean claims that "large numbers of large metallic, circular objects were flying all over Europe." Not one of these many once Top Secret National Intelligence estimates mentions UFOs or that "large numbers of large metallic, circular objects were flying all over Europe." Dean claims he is "violating my national security oath" by revealing the contents of the (alleged) NATO report. If true, he could be punished (at least covertly) by terminating his military pension. (Or he could be permanently silenced by a "burglar" with a gun entering his Tucson home in the middle of the night.) During an interview published in the December/January 1997 issue of the British magazine UFO Reality, Dean was asked if he had ever been threatened for revealing "Cosmic Top Secret" information. Dean replied, "I've not had any overt threats, but I've faced some subtle intimidation... I've had black helicopters over my house..." Dean explained to his Roswell audience that he feels justified in violating his secrecy oath to expose the government's UFO policy of "deceit and deception." When Dean appeared on the TV show "Roswell: Coverups & Close Encounters," which aired on the Sci-Fi Channel last July, he said: "It's quite easy to lie to the American public because they don't do their homework." Dean said he has recently created a Coalition for Honesty in Government to petition Congress for UFO hearings, and hopes to obtain a million signatures by late this year. [If SUN should create a Coalition for Honesty in ufology, Dean will not be allowed to join.]
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Labour Group Blasts Scottish UFO Inquiry Champion From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 10:02:56 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:04:29 -0500 Subject: Labour Group Blasts Scottish UFO Inquiry Champion >From the online edition of The Scotsman December 13. URL: http://www.scotsman.com/news/ne05ufos971213.1.html Labour blasts UFO inquiry champion ROBERT McNEIL A COUNCILLOR who has called for a Government inquiry into unidentified flying objects faces a rocket from his colleagues next week when they try to ban him from their committees. Billy Buchanan's colourful career on Falkirk Council will enter a new dimension when members vote on a motion condemning his "inappropriate behaviour". The motion, proposed by the Labour group leader John Connolly, has not been prompted by the call for a Government inquiry but by Mr Buchanan's alleged behaviour on the council. It accuses him of: =B0Calling chief officers "a band of vagabonds who are like leeches". =B0Accusing the chief executive, Walter Weir, of "disgraceful conduct and racist behaviour" in banning a German TV crew filming a UFO special from the council building. =B0Accusing Mr Weir of "preventing [sic] the course of natural justice" and of "lying". =B0Maligning members and officials and questioning their professional integrity and honesty." =B0Claiming a committee convener and other councillors were "corrupt". =B0Claiming he was assaulted by staff and that "the place was run by a bully". The motion calls for Mr Buchanan to be censured for his "inappropriate behaviour and, in the circumstances and in the interests of the proper management of the council, that he be suspended from the committees and sub-committees of the council of which he is a member until the next ordinary election of councillors". It also calls for all support and secretarial services to be withdrawn, and says: "Councillor Buchanan will only be permitted to have contact with employees by way of letter or fax." Last night, as he prepared to face the final frontier, Mr Buchanan, an independent representing Bonnybridge, said: "This is tyranny. Are we in Bonnybridge or Baghdad? All I've ever done is fight for the truth. I just stand up and say what I feel. They've used every trick in the book against me. This censure motion is just the latest." Support has materialised from the Scottish National Party group on the council, which has accused Labour of going over the top. The group leader, David Alexander, said: "I don't condone everything Billy has done but we must recognise he is a public representative. He won't be allowed to represent them if his facilities are withdrawn." However, the SNP's eight-strong group will not be enough to stop Mr Buchanan being brought down to earth by the dominant Labour group. Last night, Mr Connolly said that as leader of the council he had a "duty to maintain the integrity of the council." He said: "Councillor Buchanan has, on numerous occasions, made personal and unwarranted attacks on members and officials of the council so as to have a detrimental effect on the operation and reputation of the council. Such behaviour cannot be tolerated." Banning Mr Buchanan will be a blow to UFO investigators who have valued his efforts. Malcolm Robinson, of Strange Phenomena Investigations, said: "Billy Buchanan should be commended for taking up his constituents' concerns over what is happening in Bonnybridge." =B0Editorial comment: Falkirk: The final frontier =A9The Scotsman Publications Ltd ************ The Scotsman's editorial comment can be found at http://www.scotsman.com/opinion/op03ldrc971213.1.html and goes like this: Falkirk: the final frontier Editorial comment MULDER and Scully would understand how Billy Buchanan feels. You know the truth is out there - perhaps even up there - but all around there is mockery, official hostility, and ignorance. It may be some comfort to ask yourself who will have the last laugh when the little green men from Alpha Centauri turn their death rays on the planning commit-tee for refusing to allow them to park a UFO at the back of the local supermarket. Until then, the struggle for justice is a lonely one. The Bonnybridge councillor, who brought fame to his village by dint of sheer, even extravagant, open-mindedness, is nevertheless accused of bringing Falkirk council into disrepute. He believes that there is a conspiracy to shut him up, just as The X Files might have predicted. If so, this seems a little harsh. Some people add to the gaiety of nations. Mr Buchanan has single-handedly brought a smile to entire solar systems. He believes in UFOs; so do many people. Others might find such a conviction strange. Then again, within the council Labour group attempting to censure Mr Buchanan there are people who believe with absolute certainty in Tony Blair. =A9The Scotsman Publications Ltd
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? From: Dan Geib <geibdan@qtm.net> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 09:32:01 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:17:23 -0500 Subject: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? The recent hoopla over the ACC press release leaves me wondering, Who do they release it too ? I recently read a Reuters article about a nanotransistor but nothing about alien technology. So they have created a press release. But if it never goes to the press, then of what value is it ? Anyone can create a press release. Curious for answers Dan UFO Folklore at http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/framemst.html <>=======<>========<>========<>=====<>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Re: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' From: entropy@brighid.sunflower.com [Tom Genereaux] Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 10:41:39 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:13:26 -0500 Subject: Re: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' >Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:37:25 -0500 >From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Tom, > Although Kathleen mentions a B-52 in the article which I > referenced, it seems this is simply a typo and the plane was a > B-25 bomber. > Historical accuracy hopefully restored! Yep. Large numbers of B-25's were converted to executive transport duties, so this fits. One does need to be careful when putting this stuff on WEB sites - typos like that can be deadly. Tom G.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Re: Just what is an abduction experience? From: ufo1@juno.com [Jack Sargeant] Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 08:49:59 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:08:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Just what is an abduction experience? My compliments to the list, and especially to John and Cathy... Hello John, On Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:44:22 -0800 John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> writes: >> From: ufo1@juno.com [Jack Sargeant] >> To: updates@globalserve.net >> Subject: Re: Just what is an abduction experience? >> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:11:40 EST >> My compliments to the list and especially to Cathy... ><snip> >> Although finding the truth is the primary goal of researchers, >> UFOlogists, and the just plain curious, the overall product >> seems to make for some really interesting reading to those >> like myself who have no axe to grind. >> The bottom line is, nothing prevents you from posting your >> own experience for all of us right here in this forum, should >> you take the notion (hint, hint). The worst that can happen is, >> someone may accuse you of spinning a really good yarn. >> ...But you have grown out of the concern for what others think >> over the years, I'm sure. I do know this much... You believe >> in your experience. ...And that's all that counts. >> I challenge you to share it with us again, here and now. ;-) >> Regards, >> Jack >Hello Jack: >You say it so much better than I was able to do in my recent >series of postings. Keep it up! I hope it gets results. >John Koopmans Thank you, John. We've all heard from the arm-chair "experts." -- "...Obviously a victim of parental abuse." -- "Someone just seeking attention." -- "...Just another prankster." John, I am not a professional, nor do I have any degrees that officially allow me to even suggest a reason behind the professed experience of any individual, and since I don't even own a hot tub (An inside joke that only a few of us will understand), I can only give rise to being appreciative of anyone willing to stand the gaff of the dissenters who use their sharp tongue to ridicule others who are mostly just seeking an outlet for their frustrations. Even a professional psychologist knows to keep his personal notions to himself if he sincerely wishes to help a patient. Most experiencers are want of a good listener, nothing more, nothing less. Therefore, it behooves us to give a listen, since there is no expense on our part. That's all I've ever tried to be with the dozens of folks who have told their story in my open forum, Fido UFO. During the years 1994, 1995, and 1996, dozens of participants have come forth and told of their personal experiences without fear of ridicule from the more outspoken of the skeptics who are always present in the background. In this type of forum here, I have no control, and cannot prevent the nay sayer from making their "arm-chair observations." Fortunately for Cathy, she is aware of the existence of the "skeptibunker" who with an almost religious fervor, insists on bringing his version of the "truth" to the masses. I say, let the experiencer tell their story, and we can just be thankful for the good reading instead of making remarks that are designed only to hurt the feelings of many who have already undergone the ridicule of untactful people in the past. At this point in time, the skeptical critic will just have to get in line. Regards, Jack P.S. I have included the "list" as recipient of this note.
The UFO UpDates Archive Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 IUFO: ::: Green Egg Interview with Jacques Vallee From: density4@cts.com (Blue Resonant Human) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 06:54:39 GMT Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:45:38 -0500 Subject: IUFO: ::: Green Egg Interview with Jacques Vallee -> SearchNet's IUFO Mailing List Strange Encounters ================== An Interview with UFOlogist, Jacques Vallee by Daniel Blair Stewart, CAW for Green Egg magazine We have all seen the classic Spielberg film that immortalized J. Allen Hynek's phrase, _Close Encounters of the Third Kind_. It is the story of a little boy, a telephone repairman and a compassionate, wise French scientist who meet at the site of contact with extraterrestrials. How many of us know that the fictional character "Lacombe" is based on a real person, a compassionate and wise French scientist who travels the world in search of the elusive UFO? Fewer still know that Dr. Jacques Vallee, who is the real-life Lacombe, does not (I repeat, not!) espouse the theory that flying saucers necessarily constitute visitors from other worlds via spacecraft, saucer-shaped or otherwise. Instead, he postulates that they may be visitors from other dimensional worlds that coexist with ours, analogous to the realms of faerie, or may in fact be manifestations of something even stranger. Jacques Vallee received training as an astrophysicist and a Master's degree and then worked as an astronomer in France. There he witnessed the destruction of tracking tapes, which he had helped record, showing unidentified aerial phenomena. This sparked his interest in UFOs. He obtained his Ph.D. in computer science from Northwestern University in Chicago and moved to California, where he pioneered computer science and proceeded to write what some UFOlogists consider to be the best books on the subject of UFOs. _Anatomy of a Phenomenon_ (1966) was followed by _Challenge to Science_ (1967) co-written with his wife, Janine Vallee. In his 1970 classic _Passport to Magonia_, he wrote about the relationship of UFO contact with the patterns of faerie lore and the Little People. Five years later he published _The Invisible College_, which explored the patterns of influence unexplained phenomena have exerted on humanity historically. His investigations led him on a grand tour of the sinister side of unexplained phenomena, which he encapsulated in his 1979 book, _Messengers of Deception_. After a very long period away from writing, while continuing to research UFOs, he published several technical books, notably _The Network Revolution_ in 1982. Vallee returned to the subject of UFOs again in 1988 with _Dimensions_, which summed up UFOs from a historical perspective. His book, _Confrontations_, (1990) is a detailed analysis of 100 of his most recent investigations, from northern California to Brazil. Most recently, his book _Revelations_ (1991) gives us a glimpse of the world of UFO reporting and investigation -- as well as the paranoid maze of military and intelligence involvement with UFOs. Unafraid of controversy, always ready to examine unpopular issues, he remains one of our most intrepid and highly original thinkers on any subject. [Note: Green Egg is an "occult" magazine published by a neo- pagan group calling themselves the Church of All Worlds (CAW) and loosely fashioned after the group of the same name in Heinlein's sci-fi classic _Stranger in a Strange Land_. Although in reading this interview some may be pleasantly surprised to discover there is far more to the enigmatic Dr. Vallee than bizarre tales of Pancake-Bearing Martians, what we found of perhaps even greater interest and significance than the refreshingly iconoclastic substance of the interview was the fact that it appeared in this particular publication. Lastly, we offer it here in loving memory of our dear friend and Water Brother; the recently deceased CAW Bard, Adam Walks Between Worlds -- may you never thirst, my Brother. -B:.B:.] Daniel Blair Stewart: What aspects, data, or questions about UFO phenomena are not being addressed by the community of investigators and researchers? Jacques Vallee: To begin with, many aspects of UFO sightings have to do with the paranormal; yet psychic phenomena, paranormal phenomena have been consistently pushed under the rug by most UFO investigators. That is due in part to the fact that witnesses tell you such things only after you have gained their trust. But very often they are a challenge to the beliefs or the world view of the investigators. They may not be ready to hear it or they may not publish it because they think it would damage their credibility. And since they are in the business of giving credibility to the subject they don't want to reveal the paranormal aspects of it. Just to give you one example, in the Redding case that I investigated in northern California, the witnesses had seen an object three times on their claim near a mine that they worked. The case had been investigated by various UFO groups and the report had been published. I went there and gained the trust of the witnesses. We went back to the place where the object had been and I asked them "How did the object take off?" They said it took off ... sort of at an angle." I looked at the place and said, "Well, it had to go through the trees, didn't it?" And they said, "Well, it kind of went through the trees!" I pointed out, "That's not what you told the other people who investigated and that's not what's in the published report." And they said, "Well, this man, he was so nice and obviously he wasn't going to believe it if we told him it went through the trees." Every genuine UFO sighting has some elements that are shocking to the "rational" view, the nuts-and-bolts picture that these are simply spacecraft from outer space. Another aspect of your question is that for a long time the UFOlogists have been blind to the fact that the phenomenon can be manipulated. In particular it can be manipulated by the government, by various intelligence groups or by different cults with their own agenda. I published over ten years ago in _Messengers of Deception_ my conclusion that many of the UFO organizations had been infiltrated. That book got me in a lot of trouble with my friends in the UFO community who refused to look at that particular problem. Since then, of course, this observation has been vindicated. One government informant has even come forward to reveal that he, in fact, had been recruited to befriend various UFOlogists and to write psychological profiles of them. Every UFO organization is monitored by government informers. On the board of the National Investigation Commitee on Aerial Phenomena, which was one of the major organizations in this country in the '50s and '60s, were three people who were among the founders of psychological warfare. They were people with strong ties to the government and intelligence community. I'm not saying it's necessarily illegal or wrong, but it should be recognized. One of the recommendations of the 1953 Robertson Panel, convened by the CIA and the Air Force to review the UFO problem, was that UFO organizations be watched. That report was classified at the time. That recommendation was in fact implemented. The civilian UFO groups were being watched and infiltrated as early as the fifties. They still are. I think this aspect has many remarkable consequences. To what extent were some well-known UFO sightings actually simulations that were staged for the benefit of someone who wanted to do social engineering research or psychological warfare research? Perhaps to see what kind of stimuli it would take to make people change their belief systems, for example. DBS: A lot of investigators have pointed out that UFOs behave like holograms. I've heard the phrase "a hologram with mass" more than once. JV: In many cases they behaved like a hologram that had mass. In other words, if a hologram could also interact with the environment, if it could put holes in the ground and burn the vegetation, you'd have a good approximation of what the UFO is. In other words, it is not an object like that car over there is an object. It looks like a car, it feels like a car, but it isn't a car. It's something totally different which can look like a car if it wants to. To a large extent we know how to do that! We have devices that could produce something that would look like that car and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference, including shadows reflecting on it as objects go by. This is today's technology; not 1950s or 1960s technology, but it certainly is 1990s technology. But it still would not have mass. The UFOs do have mass. They leave imprints in the ground, they interact with the environment, so that's where the analogy stops. DBS: Tell us your objections to the extraterrestrial hypothesis as the explanation for UFOs. JV: If we had done this interview 20 years ago I would have told you the best theory we have is that this is extraterrestrial. We do know that UFOs are a physical phenomenon, they offer us an opportunity to do some good science, and they seem to come from the sky. We have the capability to go to the moon and very soon to go to other planets. I do believe that there is life throughout this Universe. So why couldn't "they" come here? In the last 20 years we've learned a lot of new things about this phenomenon that contradicts the idea that it is extraterrestrial. We have too many Close Encounters. The extraterrestrial theory on the first level assumes that these are explorers on a mission. They are supposed to have evolved on some other planet and are coming here. But if they have to study us by landing 100,000 times, they have to be very dumb! That's approximately the volume of data we have on Close Encounters reports today. If you were to take into account that those tend to occur at night when there are fewer observers, if you extrapolate you would actually get into millions of landings. Now, it wouldn't take us millions of landings if there was a civilization on Mars we wanted to study. With something the size of a beer keg in orbit we could get most of the things we needed to know about them, especially if they'd been broadcasting "I Love Lucy" into space for so many years! Then we'd want to land to check some things and get actual samples. We'd land maybe a few dozen times, maybe a few hundred times, but we wouldn't need millions of landings. So that aspect of it is a contradiction with the idea that it's an extraterrestrial mission. The second contradiction is the shape of the beings. They are uniformly humanoid in shape, somewhat bizarre and weird. They are described as having big eyes and being short with longer arms and so on, but still they have two legs, two arms. They have a torso and eyes that are adapted to exactly the same part of the spectrum as we are. They don't walk around with goggles or strange devices on their eyes. They seem to hear what we hear; they seem to be breathing our air. That means they're human or very close to human beings! It's very unlikely that beings evolving on radically different planets would end up looking like us, breathing our air, seeing the same part of the spectrum that we see. I think the biological statistics are against it. So you can say, "Well, they are so smart they are using biogenetic engineering to adapt to this planet and its gravity." But then why don't they just create complete human beings? If you can go 99% of the way, why not 100%, and then you'd be completely undetectable? So I think that's a serious obstacle to the ET theory. Another argument is that this is not a recent phenomenon. It is a phenomenon that has existed, as far as we can tell, throughout history in one form or another. Without going back to Ezekiel or to Medieval folklore, we do have excellent UFO report records from 1897. I personally have a number of sightings that living people whom I actually met with and interviewed have told me about that they were witnesses of in the twenties and thirties. So this certainly invalidates the idea that we're dealing with a civilization that has just discovered us and is coming here now. UFOs seem to have been a part of our environment for a very long time, perhaps as long as man has existed. Another problem with the extraterrestrial hypothesis is the behavior of these beings. The mainstream of UFOlogy today claims that these are wise explorers of the galaxy who are coming here to study us and the proof of that is what they do. In abductions, for example, they take away human beings. They seem to carry them inside a craft and they draw blood from them. They take samples from them, such as sperm and ova and these look like biological experiments to people like Budd Hopkins and his followers. Well, I think it proves entirely the opposite thing, because the descriptions that are given of the medical examinations are crude to the point of being absurd. If you had this technology, disc-shaped vehicles that could fly silently and appear out of nowhere, paralyze people and remain unnoticed; if you wanted to, you could land on the roof of the Mayo Clinic or any large research hospital and you'd have access to the blood bank, the sperm, bank, the frozen embryo banks. We are close to having the techniques for cloning people. You could potentially restart the human race with what we know today on Earth, yet we have only been doing molecular biology for about fifteen years. It's a very young science, a new science. Think about it. If we can already do this and these beings are supposedly a million years ahead of us, they should be able to perform experiments that would be way beyond what we do. Instead what people describe is victims coming back with obvious scars. They come back bleeding, they have things up their nose, they have terrible dreams, intense trauma, and they remember under hypnosis! The whole thing is completely absurd. The mind control people in the military already have drugs that can make people forget what they did for a week or what they did on Tuesday between 2 and 3, and no hypnotist could simply put them into a trance and recover the memory. So if we already have that kind of drug, a civilization millions of years in advance of us should be able to manipulate both the body and the memory much better. Another thing that has been swept under the rug by UFOlogists, which is yet another argument against the extraterrestrial hypothesis, is that these objects change shape. In other words, they are not always discs or eggs or cigars. They change shape dynamically. When I went to the Soviet Union, I met a man named Vladimir Azhazha, who is head of the research committee on UFOs in Moscow. He said, "You know, one of the most important aspects of this whole phenomenon is that it's polymorphic." I wasn't sure my interpreter was translating accurately, so I had him repeat that. He said, "It's polymorphic; they change shapes. An object will appear as a disc and as it's moving through the sky it will change into a cube or into a pyramid or it will vanish on the spot." I showed him an article where I had said essentially the same thing. He looked at me and he said, "You know, it's as if you and I had been working together for the last ten years." This shows something rather remarkable about the phenomenon, which is that two people who have been studying it in earnest in completely different parts of the world under completely different conditions will arrive at the same conclusions about it. If it changes shape, if it can appear out of nowhere and disappear into nowhere, this is not just a bunch of spacecraft. This is a much more interesting technology that manipulates dimensions. It manipulates space-time. And if it can do that, then it can be from anywhere and anytime. DBS: Where are they coming from, if not from outer space? JV: Let me try to separate what I think I can prove from personal speculation. I would feel comfortable standing up in front of a scientific committee and I think I could argue convincingly that the UFO phenomenon is a real, unrecognized phenomenon; that it is physical and that it can manipulate space and time in ways that we don't understand. Beyond that, my own personal speculation which I could not prove is that the phenomenon represents a form of consciousness that is nonhuman. There's a big distinction here. A lot of people might agree that there are unrecognized phenomena in nature, but wouldn't necessarily agree that they are conscious even though they are nonhuman. If UFOs represent a form of consciousness then obviously it could originate in outer space, but not with the first level, nuts-and-bolts extraterrestrial hypothesis. It would have to be a lot more sophisticated than that. There could be a form of consciousness out in space that can manipulate dimensions. But it could just as easily be here on earth. It could be using the Earth as its home port. It could also be tied to human consciousness. The Collective Unconscious could be doing this to us, projecting images that are important during the current crisis we are going through. It could also come from a form of creature that has always lived on Earth with us and is not an alien consciousness, in the sense that we usually think of aliens. This goes back to the traditions about the faeries and gnomes and Little People: what I have called the Magonia tradition, that in fact there is another Universe right here. Perhaps most of us just don't see it, but it's here. When I started _Passport to Magonia_, I gathered all the old books about the faeries and the Good People, the Good Neighbors. This is a wonderful body of literature. These beings did approximately what the UFO beings do today. They would fly at night in strange cone-shaped luminous craft, they would abduct human beings, they even had little pins that would paralyze you. This is centuries ago, okay? And it matches reports from people who see UFOs today. So I think that parallel is very interesting. It's still one of my favorite theories but there could be others! You could argue that there are natural phenomena that play a role in all this. For instance, Paul Devereux has written several books about "Earth lights" which he has shown to be tied to several megalithic sites. Whether the megaliths have anything to do with UFOs, or whether those sites tended to have strange lights so that over the years people used them for their temple and put a rock there, is open to question. Perhaps it was a natural phenomenon all along. That's a possibility, but it really does not explain all UFOs. The other possibility is that there may be forces within the Earth tied to some old traditions. There may be unrecognized telluric currents, forces within the Earth that could manifest in the form of electromagnetic phenomena that could become luminous and float through the air. Usually those things we don't think of as being intelligent but who knows? Maybe it could be a form of consciousness. There are other way-out theories that I find entertaining. We could imagine superconductive clouds moving through the galaxy taking any shape they want. Say, if you were a superconductive hydrogen cloud ten times the size of the solar system and you wanted to look like a Volkswagen, who could stop you from looking like a Volkswagen? You could do anything you wanted to! There is a book called _The Black Cloud_ by Fred Hoyle, who is one of our greatest living astronomers. It is a science fiction story about a conscious hydrogen cloud. Now, of course if there was such a cloud we'd presumably see it as it came closer to the Earth. But there may be forms of plasma that we don't know how to detect yet, or maybe we're simply not looking for them. Now, I don't specifically believe all that, but these are fun theories that should be looked at. Paul Devereux's hypothesis of the Earth Lights is a very important one. Geologists today are beginning to reassess the descriptions by people who said they saw lights before an earthquake: "I saw this globe of light and it flew down the canyon and ten minutes later there was an earthquake!" Geologists used to say those were ignorant farmers who didn't know their physics. Now they are beginning to realize that before an earthquake the friction forces within the Earth could well create plasma or electromagnetic discharges that could become visible. In fact, scientists like Dr. John Derr at the US Geological Survey have found a correlation of these lights with fault lines and earthquakes. DBS: Do you think our awareness of UFOs has been detrimental or beneficial? JV: In _Confrontations_ we report on a trip Janine and I took to Brazil where there seemed to be evidence of UFO hostility. Objects would literally zap people with beams. In several cases it seemed that it killed them. It certainly injured them. We couldn't really prove a direct cause-and effect relationship in the cases of death, but there was a cause-and-effect relationship in the cases of injuries. People were, in fact, injured by those beams. The phenomenon really doesn't seem to care at all whether it's perceived as good or bad. It does seem to have an influence on our culture, but we may not be able to detect it because our view of it is so short. Historically, we're only aware of things for a few months or a few years. We don't tend to get the big picture of contemporary events. If we did, the science of economics would be in much better shape than it is! It is very difficult for us to deal both with transient and slow- changing, long-term thing like the UFO phenomenon. It seems to be a control system. If it is a control system, then it affects our culture. We probably would be unable to detect whether it is doing good or bad to us. In fact, it may be beyond the level at which humans would define good and evil. DBS: How vast might this phenomenon be? JV: My impression is that it extends to every culture, every race, every religion on Earth. I really have not found a single place that doesn't have a tradition about this phenomenon. What is fascinating is that most of the anthropologists have completely missed it! You have to look at the footnotes in their books to find any mention of it. It's never mentioned in the mainstream. It's a peripheral vision effect, you know? Something that's just off to the side of your intellectual vision. DBS: Tell us about your trip to Russia. JV: In Russia I had a chance to talk to a number of groups who are actually doing UFO research. One of the groups was even interested in New Age pursuits, astrology and a number of other topics. We were amazed because when we went there we had no idea that this sort of work went on. These people were also interested in natural healing and herbal medicine. They had an entire storehouse of primitive plant remedies that obviously came from a long Russian tradition. So we asked them, "How come the Russian culture has preserved all this with the kind of regime you've had all these years?" And they answered, "It's very simple. In this respect we are ahead because you have had all these so-called 'rationalist' thinkers in the West. The Russian tradition has always preserved some of the ancient ways, even under Communism." So I said, "Why do you think there is such a difference between these two cultures when it comes to these traditions about nature?" And they answered: "Well, you killed all your witches! So you've eliminated the genes from the gene pool. We've had an orthodox church here for centuries but they never killed the witches. Neither did the Communists. They did many horrible things, but only the Western church slaughtered the witches." Oddly enough, parapsychology research went on in the Soviet Union even under Stalin's regime. They never stopped doing that kind of research and they never stopped natural healing and natural medicine, side by side with the official medicine. Don't get me wrong, this wasn't approved officially by the Academy of Sciences and all that, but they didn't kill these people. They didn't send them to labor camps. I had never thought of that. The east European countries never eliminated those abilities from their gene pool. We went there because there were a series of sightings in Voronezh, which is a city a few hundred miles south of Moscow. Some of the UFO sightings were reported in the Western press, but in a very superficial way. We found that there were many more witnesses than had been reported. There were not only Close Encounters but also things seen in the sky by up to 500 witnesses at the same time. Very active research was being done by several official commissions and by private scientists. I was impressed by the number of people doing research and by the quality of the research. DBS: Many books depict the UFO phenomenon as benevolent and peaceful. Your descriptions of UFOs in _Confrontations_ make it appear sinister. How would you account for this discrepancy? JV: I can understand why the expectation has grown that this could be helpful and benevolent. It's a very complex, unexplained phenomenon and we always tend to project our own human fantasies into every such thing that comes along. It would be nice if somebody came down from the sky and told us how to stop wars and how to cure cancer. Unfortunately the phenomenon itself, when you look at it objectively, doesn't seem to care about us at all. It seems to be benevolent in some cases and hostile or at least harmful in other cases. Notice that we could say the same thing about electricity. We couldn't live without electricity, but if you put your fingers in the socket it could kill you! That doesn't mean the utility company is hostile to you, it just means that there's a very powerful force out there and it doesn't care if it kills you or not. Electricity really doesn't give a damn one way or the other, and I think that, to some extent, the UFO phenomenon is the same way. It does whatever it has to do according to a pattern we haven't detected. When people get in the way they get zapped. In Close Encounter situations there is often a profound long- term psychological behavior change in the witness. Sometimes it's for the better and sometimes it's for the worse. You occasionally meet people who seem very enlightened, who have a very positive attitude toward life, who think they have psychic abilities, and when you ask them when they first became aware of this they will trace it to a time when they saw a UFO. Some witnesses have actually described to us being healed as they were caught in the beam from a UFO. There is a case like that in _Confrontations_, a doctor in France who had been blown up by a mine in Algeria. He had a form of paralysis that was gone after he was exposed to light from the object. There are also numerous cases in which the reverse happens. People are confronted with a UFO and their whole life changes for the worse. When they tell their story, the local people don't believe them. They are ostracized, they get fired from their jobs, their wives leave them, they go through a tailspin, they sometimes end up as bums. That happened in the '60s and '70s to several American cops. The phenomenon tends to happen away from towns, between, say, 1 and 4:00 in the morning. Who is going to be away from a town between 1 and 4:00 in the morning, but the highway patrol! So very often in places like Nebraska, North Dakota, Minnesota, there are cases of Close Encounters at night involving highway patrolmen. In numerous cases their lives were destroyed or broken; they had to leave the force because people wouldn't respect them anymore. They were suspected of seeing things, maybe of drinking. DBS: In your book _The Invisible College_ you stated that matter might have three aspects: substantial, energetical, and informational. Could you elaborate on this and show how it applies to UFO phenonmena? JV: We learn in school that energy and information are two sides of the same coin, okay? That you can translate energy into information and vice versa. And yet, the only physics we learn is the physics of energy! The physics of energy should have a little sister, the physics of information, but nobody talks about it! It's interesting to ask what might be in that physics. My speculation is that that physics of information exists and that it is what people through the ages have called magic. The magical tradition asks, how does the mind deal with information structures? And how does it relate to the rest of Nature? DBS: Tell me what perhaps idealistic changes you might make in our present that would improve our future? JV: By idealistic, what do you mean? If I could change human beings, I would make them more loving, more open, but I don't know how to do that. So I'm going to take your question on a different level: if I had the power to make changes in the way things are in the world, what would I change without changing human nature? I have to assume human nature is a given. DBS: We'll have to assume that. But now we're going to give you temporary control of the world. JV: Good! (Laughter, a long pause.) The reason I am silent is that it's so easy to come up with idealistic things. Jesus Christ did it, every prophet has done it, and usually they ended up with the exact opposite of what they wanted. The prophets say: "Let there be love!" and people say, "Yeah, let there be love, but of course it has to be my way and not this other guys's way!" and they end up fighting. I do wish that the impulse to search, to question reality, to search beyond the obvious face of reality, became more widespread. I wish that people had more of an interest in the mysteries around them. I also wish that there was a simple, medical way for all of us to experience what goes on in the moment of death without dying. I think that if people had that simple experience once, the rest of their lives would be very, very different. I have a few friends who have had a near-death experience, usually under very traumatic circumstances like a head-on collision. They changed radically the way they thought about their careers, their relationships, their life, their view of death. In some cases it eliminated their fear of death completely. When you don't fear death anymore your life is going to change radically. So if there was one thing ... You cannot wish for people to have head-on collisions! I'm just wishing there was a way for people to have the experience of dying, to take it with them into the mainstream of their life without going through the trauma of an accident. Of course, that's what initiation does, in part, with a lot of work. A head-on collision gives you that instant initiation, assuming you survive it. To some extent the UFO Close Encounter has the characteristics of a near death experience. DBS: In quantum physics and biology scientists are considering models that no longer resemble the mechanistic models of the 19th Century. In particular, quantum physicists speculate that the observer influences the phenomenon observed. In biology microbiologists are examining relationships to determine if Earth qualifies as a literally living thing. How do you respond to these models? Will breakthroughs in these fields apply to UFO phenomena? JV: In both of those cases you have an example of the relationship of information with energy. What we seem to be discovering in genetics is that what's important is information storage. DNA is essentially a machine to store a lot of information. When you alter the information you alter the whole being. Essentially you are dealing here with software, not hardware. There may be other ways of representing it, other than DNA. It just seems to be an extraordinarily efficient way of storing information perfectly and duplicating it perfectly. I'm not a physicist, but I do talk to a lot of physicists who are very puzzled these days. When you draw information out of an experiment, theoretically you're drawing energy, because energy and information are related; in fact, they are identical. So if I observe a certain phenomenon at the quantum level, the answer is translatable in terms of energy. That energy had to come from somewhere! So I've actually had an impact on the experiment. It might not have happened the same way if I had not been observing it. That's another mechanism in which you see information and energy being related and unless we take that equation into account we don't have a real picture of the Universe. That leads to the question of what is the role of consciousness in the Universe. This also relates to magic, because in magic you are manipulating information structures that have a relationship to the material world around you. So I think that both of those examples are very relevant to the question of information versus energy. Increasingly we may find that information is the more important of the two. I think UFOs are a special case that forces us to question what we call reality. In Close Encounter cases there is a point at which the witness seems to enter a different reality. There is an English researcher named Jenny Randles who calls this "the Oz factor." There is a point where all of a sudden reality has split and the reality of the observer has been replaced by another reality. If we could measure that, if we could instrument the witness, we might be able to learn about what we call physical reality. But that also raises the question: how do we know that this reality is the real one? How would we prove that it's the real one? This reality is merely a human consensus. There are interesting experiments that have been done where a newborn cat is given goggles that have vertical slits, and the cat can't take the goggles off. It's known that visual reality is created in the first two weeks in the life of a cat. So after two weeks they remove those goggles and the cat has a vertical reality! The cat could not think of horizontal structures. The cat would never jump on this bench, for example. She would negotiate her way around a vertical structure, but she has no concept of horizontal things. If the goggles had horizontal slits, then that cat would have a horizontal reality. The point is that we all have goggles over our minds and that's where the UFO phenomenon comes in. It challenges these goggles! Our goggles are called culture, education, tradition and so on, and these are the things through which we see the world! We're incapable of seeing the world through a different set of goggles. One of the opportunities that the UFO phenomenon is giving us is to look at reality in a much larger context. Whatever UFOs turn out to be, the opportunity is here. Simply by stretching our minds and forcing us to look at the Universe in other ways. Excerpt from: Green Egg Magazine The Official Organ of the Church of All Worlds "A Magazine of Goddess and Nature Religion" Vol. XXTV, No. 95, Yule 1991 Green Egg, POB 488, Laytonville, CA 95454 (707) 984-7062 Gemagazine@aol.com http://www.caw.org/green-egg/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Re: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' From: Don Ledger <dledger@istar.ca> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:17:40 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:55:40 -0500 Subject: Re: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' > From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:46:53 PST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' Generous snip...... > I knew Ken Arnold, > and in June 1977, while in his company, I asked him > about the above quote. He said this was the first time > he'd heard it, and nothing of the sort had ever happened. > He added that many things said about him in print were > not true. I might add as well that those words don't sound > like any Arnold would have spoken. > Jerry Clark Hi Jerry and List As an aquaintence of his, are you aware of whether Ken Arnold shared his sighting with or was interviewed extensivly by anyone who might have been an experienced pilot. As a pilot Arnold would have had many flying buddies some who would probably have been his closest friends. He probably would have shared details with them that he would not bother passing on to the press, etc, because they either didn't ask or because they would not have understood these details anyway. I don't know what Arnold's age was when he had the sighting, I'm guessing 32-38 years, but he might have had younger flying buddies, for instance ex WW II pilots, commercial or private pilots who are still living. Arnold might have given them more details of his flight itinerary than he would to the layman because that's what pilots talk about when they get together. Don Ledger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Re: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Rob Gates] Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:17:00 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:58:00 -0500 Subject: Re: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release In a message dated 97-12-13 07:51:39 EST, you write: > From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:32:24 +0200 > Subject: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release > Published on American Computer Company's website December 7. > URL: > http://www.American-Computer.com/Transcap.htm > AMERICAN COMPUTER COMPANY unearths previously unknown electronic > device it claims it obtained by analyzing notes about Alien > Artifact examined by Bell Labs 50 years ago, notes that were sold > ACC by an unnamed source... Same ACC crap being dissiminated by "unnamed source.." we have been hearing about for months -- and as usual comes from unnamed sources. Its called rumor mongering on the internet. Isn't it convient that all this trash comes out just before ACC's alleged public stock offerings? Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Re: Wang Update On ACC's Transcapicitor From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Rob Gates} Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:59:04 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:56:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Wang Update On ACC's Transcapicitor In a message dated 97-12-12 13:09:40 EST, you write: > From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:40:18 +0200 > Subject: Wang Update On ACC's Transcapicitor > Received via "Doc in Phoenix" December 12 at 05.42 local time: > ******* > Doc in Phoenix > [Begin RFC-822 message.] > From: "acsa" <acsa@ix.netcom.com> > To: <authority@webtv.net> > Subject: Re: ED WANG ATTENTION > Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:10:44 -0500 > ohhh, mucho mas to come.... you'd be shocked if you heard what I'd > heard, today. > (Did you happen to notice they, ACC, are selling a 200MHZ MMX Pentium > PC System with all the trimmings for $789? Its on their home page... > Is this possible?) > Here is the scuttlebutt from > http://american-computer.com > (pass this email on, verbatim...) Same rumors/gossip/tales/stories crap from ACC, different day. Don't quit your day job to start selling ACC's Transcapicitor. :) Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:40:57 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:02:02 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:48:42 EST > Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:30:14 -0500 > Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) > >Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:48:35 -0700 > >Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:53:01 -0500 > >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >> Corso CLAIMS to have the right military credentials. That is > >> quite different from actually having them. > >> Be skeptical. Check some of the places Corso claims to have gone > >> and some of the people that he claimed to meet with. Not only > >> were some of him meetings an impossibility but he doesn't get > >> people's names or job descriptions correct. > >> Sorry I can't go into more detail at this time. > >> Rebecca > > Rebecca this is a rather tall claim here. Please provide more > > information about Corso's "non-military" record as it becomes > > available to you. > I didn't say that Corso had no military record. I said he made > claims about his military record which seem to be a little > different than the record via FOIA by Larry Bryant. Not too big > of deal. > It has been claimed by Corso and/or Birnes that there wasn't > enough room in the book to provide documentation for Corso's > claims. I'm skeptical of that claim. I feel Corso can't back up > many of his claims. That's my opinion. > It's not up to me, you, or anyone -- other than Corso and/or > Birnes -- to provide documentation for their claims. Why not?...Wouldn't you be intersted in legitimate documentation irrespective of who dug it up? > Some of the specific and some of the not so specific claims > relating to people, places and events have been shown to be an > impossibility. Forgot about the back engineering claims and look > at what was said about specific people and you will find all > sorts of mistakes. Those mistakes, IMO, should not have been made > and don't appear to have been corrected in other printings. So, > do we just make Birnes the scapegoat? Or do we say, well, Corso > is old, perhaps that's why these mistakes are in the book? How > many excuses do we allow a man who offers up a wild tale, of > which he's the hero, and offers not one iota proof for anything > that he says? > Maybe you can make excuses for him, but I don't have to and I > won't. What excuses? > It's an interesting story but unfortunately Corso's tale just > adds to so much of the garbage that already litters this field. yes, yes, what would a dissenting view on this list be without this overused rhetorical endstatement. Before you finish punctuating your thought, Let's keep this in perspective here so you don't misunderstand what I asked you. This discussion has nothing to do with Corso's UFO claims or Roswell or backengineering or anything else, this discussion is about his military record. If you have some information or evidence that casts doubt on specific aspects of his military record than I reccommend you post it. According to his FOIA military record his claims of heading the FTD for 2 years were overstated and that he actually held this position for only 90 days. Corso claims a tour in North Africa. This is not reflected in his military record. This what I'm talking about...do you have other evidence of this type? Flaws in Corso's UFO and backengineering claims are a dime a dozen and exist everywhere you look but using the FOIA to attempt to verify or refute Corso's alien claims is a laughable concept. The FOIA's usefulness in this capacity will provide evidence to either support or refute his more terrestrial claims, service record, and credentials. Jared.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Re: Experts Say Flash Was Meteor, 12/13/97 From: Kenny Young <task@fuse.net> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:00:52 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:10:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Experts Say Flash Was Meteor, 12/13/97 Experts Say Flash Was a Meteor Dec. 13, 1997 By The Associated Press A mysterious flash of light that prompted calls to authorities in four Midwestern states and led to a brief search for an overdue plane was probably caused by a meteor, experts said. The light -- described by many as a glowing orange or red -- was seen about 8 p.m. CST Friday across hundreds of miles, from Minnesota and Wisconsin south into Iowa and northern Missouri. ``It was a good-sized red ball,'' said Wylie Peterson of Colfax, Wis. ``It had a pretty good tail behind it. It was too big to be a flare.'' A search was organized after a private airplane was reported overdue at the Boyceville, Wis., airport. It was suspended after doubts were raised about whether the plane was missing and the meteor possibility was considered. Astronomy experts at the University of Minnesota and Drake University in Des Moines, Iowa, said the phenomenon was best explained by a single meteor burning through the Earth's atmosphere. Today marks the peak of the annual Germinid meteor shower. ``We are constantly bombarded by fragments of old comets,'' said Lawrence Staunton, a physics and astronomy professor at Drake. ``They are mostly not seen.'' George Amis, a meteorologist with the National Weather Service in Pleasant Hill, Mo., said the flash was not weather-related. ``There are no thunderstorms within 2,000 miles of us,'' he said. End of article -- UFO Research http://home.fuse.net/task/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #204 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:17:45 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:13:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #204 Apology to MW #204 (For December 13, 1997) Say what you want about *crazy* John Ford. Say that he's addled and daffy. Say that he's gone off the deep end, of course. Say that his brains are like taffy. Say he's a mental case, say he's a dope -- say that he's outside his reasonable scope. Say that he's loony -- all gooney -toony, not deserving your concern, and unworthy of your note. =85Compelled to serial murder? He's a bumbling Manson clone? He's eating funny mushrooms -- spends his off time getting stoned? He's a frothing, raving nut case, surely better behind bars? I really think it's rather that his mind was on the stars. He started asking questions that would likely bode us well, got mad when he was stonewalled, got strident, then, as hell <g>! He got right up some noses -- again and, then, again, to the point some felt his boot heels on their slick and smarmy chins. He made some calls, and he raked some muck, he wrote some dangerous letters. He only did what I'd do with the courage of my betters=85 Consider the details, and the facts of his case! The plot is bizarre, and goes off in your face! It reads like a movie done cheap -- on the fly. It can't hold together -- this pie in the sky! Radium toothpaste's beyond my belief, and "outside in his pickup" is less than concrete! An informant inside leads the talk by the nose=85 -- is there more to this story, do you think or suppose? Lehmberg@snowhill.com My last sentence fragment drips with the most cloying and derisive sarcasm! We should ALL be asking questions about this! John Ford was functioning well within the law in an ethical pursuit allegedly guaranteed by our *constitution*. Here's hoping YOU never feel compelled to speak up about something YOU feel is important, but inconvenient for the man. If so, YOU are next! Be afraid! Then get mad. Turn the heat up, slow, on a frog, and it will sit complacently in its pot of water until it cooks. Feel the heat coming up, little froggies? ~~~ "There is plenty of reason to think the Suffolk Police were 'out to get' John Ford. And no member of the UFO community can be confident they understand the arrest of John Ford if their only source of information is the sensational media reports orchestrated by the Suffolk DA. That is why John's colleagues, including myself in Washington, DC, LIUFON vice president Steve Iavarone, and Tony West, Richard Jones, Preston Nichols, and Joe Zuppardo in New York, Don Jernigan of Ohio, and Kelly Freeman of Florida, have organized the John Ford Defense Committee. Our purpose is (1) to give people true information on the arrest of John Ford, and (2) collect funds and other resources essential for John's defense." -- Elaine M. Douglass (elaine26@juno.com). The Committee needs funds for John's legal defense and donations of several kinds: a psychiatrist expert witness; professional audiotape analysis; and a Long Island-based legal investigator. Please also write personal letters to: John Ford (8-29-48), Suffolk County Jail, 100 Center Dr, Riverhead NY 11901. -- Explore the Alien View? http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/ "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake. They're building John's pyre now!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:44:48 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:15:12 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] >Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 02:09:35 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:30:35 -0500 >Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:28:51 -0500 >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso ><snip> >Bob Shell remarked the other day that it was not up to him to >reform ufology. I happen to disagree with him. It is up to all of >us who want to see the study of UFOs advance to reform this >field. We need to stop making excuses for people who tell stories >without offering proof. It is a waste of our time to chase down >the claims of people who refuse to offer documentation for their >claims. >Rebecca Rebecca, You got to stop making excuses for not doing your own research. If you want to know more about this case, what stops you from calling Corso? Or do you expect Corso to call you? Hell, the man does not even know you exist. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Re: From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:44:32 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:17:10 -0500 Subject: Re: >Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 09:32:01 -0800 >From: Dan Geib <geibdan@qtm.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: ACC Press release ... But TO WHOM ? >The recent hoopla over the ACC press release leaves me wondering, >Who do they release it too ? I recently read a Reuters article about >a nanotransistor but nothing about alien technology. >So they have created a press release. But if it never goes to the >press, then of what value is it ? Anyone can create a press release. >Curious for answers >Dan Dan, That is a good question. It almost seems as if ACC suffers from the same strange habit that has always plagued the UFO community: do an enormous amount of research, establish beyond a reasonable doubt that something very strange happened somewhere, and them inform nobody except the rest of the UFO community. However, Ed Wang recently revealed that securities broker Merril Lynch has urged ACC to go public. There is a difference between posting a press release on a website and really going public, which means sending the press release to all mainstream media, as ACC should do, in my opinion. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:44:39 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:20:27 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso At 11:40 13-12-97 -0500, you wrote: >Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:40:54 -0700 >From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >> From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:30:35 -0500 >> Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:28:51 -0500 >> Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >> Good question, and one that will cause most people to write this >> book off as unsubstantiated nonsense. The question that many are >> trying to answer is why a man with such a career history would >> want to make such allegations. From my understanding his income >> from the book was very small, so the profit motive seems to be >> missing. This is especially true considerring his age. >Can you talk a little more about that?...that's been the subject >of a good degree of debate. There have been a lot of questions >regarding just exactly how much financial gain Corso and his >family stand to achieve from the book. I, personally, have no >idea. Where did you hear that Corso's financial gain from book >sales was small? Like you, I'm somewhat leary of critics taking >refuge in the rather simpleminded contention that Corso >fabricated all his UFO/alien claims in his book in order to seek >financial gain. If there are other motivations for fabricating >such claims for a man of his age in his position it's certainly >incumbent on us to find out what they are. >...questions abound. Hi Jared, Steven, Please keep in mind that before publication of the book nobody knew how much money it would earn for Corso or for the publisher. In other words, the "how much money has he made" issue is irrelevant. I have develop a rule for this: the faster someone claims that a certain act in Ufology is done for the money, the less research the claimant has done. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:56:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:24:48 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] >Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 02:09:35 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:30:35 -0500 >Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:28:51 -0500 >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso [. . .] >I think you are missing the point that I am obviously not making. >Why do we have to find a motive for Corso? Sure, his actions beg >for a reason. If we can't figure out the reason, does that mean >that the book must be true? >Maybe he's just a man with some sort of complex or syndrome. Not >being a mental health professional, I'd hate to speculate, >however, delusional does come to mind. >The point is that it isn't really necessary to go to any great >lengths to try to make excuses for this man Corso and/or his >co-author Birnes. Neither of them included one iota of >documentation for the claims they made. Why must we look for a >motive? We should we waste our time? Good point. You review the claims, look at the evidence, dismiss what isn't supported and move on. Some may want to give the story credibility based on his military background, and I have to question what his motive would be to concoct this story. But there is certainly no direct connection between his documented military history and the allegations he has made. I make no excuses for Corso, but merely have an explanation that has been given for some of the nonsense I've seen in the book. If one could question Corso regarding all of the discrepancies that would perhaps clear up some of the issues, but that's not likely to happen. I would agree that without further supporting evidence, we should only acknowledge the allegation and move on. >>>> But without knowing what >>>> Corso's notes contained, it is impossible to determine how much of the >>>> story that is told is from Corso, and how much was "filler" created by >>> Corso had notes? He claims to have notes. He must not have had >>> very good ones, as some mistakes were made. Obvious mistakes to >>> people who know when buildings were built and when people died. >>> Maybe not so obvious to the general population, but ones I can >>> check out, once pointed in the right direction. >>> Maybe Birnes couldn't read Corso's notes and that's why these >>> mistakes were made? But I wonder why the mistakes weren't >>> corrected from the proof or even later editions. Surely, Corso >>> has read the book and should know these details are wrong. >> I wasn't aware that a second printing had taken place, but you >> may know more than I in that regard. >There is a version of the book out that does not include the >Thurmond forward, doesn't that mean it went into additional >printings? I haven't been checking copies I've seen in the stores in my area, but I know the publisher had agreed to remove it. That would indeed be the second printing. If someone has contacts in the printing industry, it would be interesting to see the number of copies printed. [. . .] >My point about the notes (in my assumption you were speaking of >the type notes I refer to above and not the notebook he had in >Roswell several years ago) is that there is NO proof that Corso >has notes from his military days. There is no need to speculate >about how Birnes may or may not have interpreted those notes >because there is no proof that they exist. Of course, we could really be talking about notes about his military days that were written many years later. His notes would still be annecdotal unless we have additional evidence that can be derived from them. As you've noted, the incorrect information in the book shows that the notes weren't accurate if they did exist, with numerous dates and other factors reported incorrectly. >Bob Shell remarked the other day that it was not up to him to >reform ufology. I happen to disagree with him. It is up to all of >us who want to see the study of UFOs advance to reform this >field. We need to stop making excuses for people who tell stories >without offering proof. It is a waste of our time to chase down >the claims of people who refuse to offer documentation for their >claims. I have no argument with that, but I'm not sure how you're going to develop a common consensus on what will constitute "proof", and some will always be willing to accept the claims of others. I'm not even sure we could come up with a good consensus on how we define the "field" of "Ufology". Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:58:17 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:27:08 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:40:54 -0700 >From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >> From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:30:35 -0500 >> Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:28:51 -0500 >> Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >> Good question, and one that will cause most people to write this >> book off as unsubstantiated nonsense. The question that many are >> trying to answer is why a man with such a career history would >> want to make such allegations. From my understanding his income >> from the book was very small, so the profit motive seems to be >> missing. This is especially true considerring his age. >Can you talk a little more about that?...that's been the subject >of a good degree of debate. There have been a lot of questions >regarding just exactly how much financial gain Corso and his >family stand to achieve from the book. I, personally, have no >idea. Where did you hear that Corso's financial gain from book >sales was small? Like you, I'm somewhat leary of critics taking >refuge in the rather simpleminded contention that Corso >fabricated all his UFO/alien claims in his book in order to seek >financial gain. If there are other motivations for fabricating >such claims for a man of his age in his position it's certainly >incumbent on us to find out what they are. >...questions abound. I will try to see what information has been released on this, but it really isn't my story to tell. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 UFO UpDate:{86} part 2 - United Kingdom UFO Network From: United Kingdom UFO Network <ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:39:05 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:54:49 -0500 Subject: UFO UpDate:{86} part 2 - United Kingdom UFO Network ______ _______ ____ ------ / / // ____// |---------------------------------------------- U K / / // ___/ / / ' Dec 13th, 1997 / / // / / / / N E T W O R K part 2 Issue 86 --- (_____//__/ -- (_____/------------------------------------------------ The United Kingdom UFO Network - a free electronic magazine with subscribers in over 40 countries. This issue comes in 3 parts. If any part is missing please mail: ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk giving the issue number. The issue will be reposted to you. Please put the details as below in the subject section e.g. Repost {86} part 1, part 2 or part 3. [W 7]****** Source: Newsday (Long Island) newspaper Publish Date: 14th November 1997 Judge sends John Ford to N.Y. Mental Hospital A Suffolk County Court judge ordered ufologist John Ford, president of the Long Island UFO Network (LIUFON) to be sent to an upstate New York mental hospital on Thursday, November 13, 1997. Ford, 49, was arrested June 15, 1996 by police of Suffolk County, Long Island, "on charges that he was seeking to kill three officials by putting radium in their cars and lacing their toothpaste with radioactive material." The grand jury indicted Ford on charges of conspiracy and possession of radioactive materials. Ford has been held in jail without bail bond for the past seventeen months. "Three psychiatrists and a psychologist, two hired by District Attorney James M. Catterson Jr.'s office, examined John Ford and all four concluded that the former court officer (the defendant--J.T.) isn't competent to stand trial." "In one report, Robert H. Berger, director of Forensic Psychiatry at Bellevue Hospital Center (in New York City-- J.T.), said that while Ford seemed to understand his legal predicament, he thinks 'the criminal case against him is in reality an intelligence operation being run by the CIA together with the Israeli intelligence agency Mossad.'" "Ford, 49, of Bellport (N.Y.) is charged with conspiring to kill Suffolk Couty Republican chairman John Powell, legislator Fred Towle (R-Shirley) and Brookhaven public safety director Anthony Gazzola by putting radium in their cars and toothpaste." "Ford is expected to be transferred from the Suffolk County jail in Riverhead to the upstate Mid-Hudson Psychiatric Center in New Hampton (N.Y.) next week. He will return to Suffolk to face the criminal charges if doctors there determine he is competent to stand trial." "Ford's lawyer, John Rouse, has maintained that the only reason Catterson brought charges against Ford for the plot (was) that prominent Republicans were the target. 'If the threats were against you or I, John (Ford) would be walking the streets like an average citizen,' Rouse said." Ford and LIUFON had conducted an ongoing investigation of doings at the Brookhaven National Laboratory on Long Island since a UFO incident near the lab back in 1994. Ford reportedly "said he believed that visitors from outer space had crash-landed on Long Island and that government officials were hiding the aliens at Brookhaven National Laboratory in Upton." [W 8]****** Source: The New York Post Publish Date: 23rd November 1997 Bill wanted UFO probe: Hubbell book By DEBORAH ORIN President Clinton was intrigued by UFOs and wanted to know if they really existed, says a new book by his golfing pal, disgraced Justice Department official Webb Hubbell. Hubbell says finding out about UFOs was one of the top priorities Clinton gave him in sending him over to a job as one of Attorney General Janet Reno's top deputies. Clinton had said, "if I put you over at Justice I want you to find the answers to two questions for me," Hubbell recounts. "One, who killed JFK. And two, are there UFOs." "Clinton was dead serious. I had looked into both, but wasn't satisfied with the answers I was getting," Hubbell adds. Hubbell describes his failure to find out about JFK and UFOs as a big regret when he had to resign as associate attorney general and pleaded guilty to bilking law clients of $482,000. Whitewater figure Jim McDougal has said Hubbell - who worked closely with Mrs. Clinton and former White House lawyer Vincent Foster at Little Rock's Rose law Firm - "knows where the bodies are buried" on the land deal, but he stays pretty closed-mouthed in the book "Friends in High Places." The book touched off a courtroom battle when Whitewater counsel Ken Starr tried to subpoena early drafts. Starr backed off, and in any case Hubbell's book insists he can't remember much. But Hubbell does toss out a tantalizing aside in examining why Bill Clinton decided against running for president in 1988: a remark from Hillary that, "We've got to straighten up Whitewater." The book portrays Hillary Clinton as an ambitious woman who dreamed of succeeding her husband as Arkansas governor and paints Bill Clinton as someone unable to face his wife on whether she should use his last name or hers. Hubbell recounts that in 1981, after Clinton got beaten for re-election as Arkansas governor - a campaign in which his wife's use of her maiden name, Rodham, was an issue - he asked Hubbell to press her to change her name. He quotes Clinton as saying: "She needs to do this ... Webb, you're her friend. Will you talk to her about it?" Hubbell says he did so and Mrs. Clinton agreed - "but I suspect it hurt for some reasons she's never understood herself." Later in 1990, Hillary Clinton seriously talked of running to succeed her husband as Arkansas governor when Bill Clinton seemed bored with the job, he adds. "Hillary had actually floated her candidacy past Vince Foster and me in the event that Bill didn't run," writes Hubbell, then a law partner of Mrs. Clinton's and Foster's. "We questioned whether if the reason Bill wasn't running was he had been in office too long, voters would think they were just getting the same thing." Hubbell adds that Mrs. Clinton "talked about how it might energize a new generation of females in the state, and when she said that, I knew she was really thinking about it." [W 9]****** Source: Electronic Telegraph Publish Date: Monday 24th November 1997 From: Stuart Lester <slester@email.msn.com> Clinton looked for evidence of UFOs By Charles Laurence in New York PRESIDENT Clinton is a believer that there might indeed be UFOs, according to a Little Rock associate. When he appointed his friend Webster Hubbell to a job in the Justice Department, he told him he wanted him to go through government records, and find out if UFOs existed. He also wanted to know who really assassinated President John Kennedy. The startling insight into Mr Clinton's convictions comes in Friends in High Places, a book by Mr Hubbell, who was the President's golfing partner in Arkansas, and left the government in disgrace after pleading guilty to milking clients of his legal practice of $482,000 (293,000). He reveals that the President made the UFOs a priority when he appointed him as an associate attorney general. He writes: "Clinton had said, 'I want you to find the answers to two questions for me. One, who killed JFK. And, two, are there UFOs?' Clinton was dead serious. I had looked into both but wasn't satisfied with the answers." When it was first announced that Mr Hubbell was writing a book, there was controversy because it was believed that he knew the secrets of Whitewater. The Whitewater special prosecutor, Kenneth Starr, tried to subpoena drafts. However, he backed down, and, in the book, Mr Hubbell says he can remember little. [W 10]****** Source: New York Post Publish Date: 4th December 1997 Bill's UFO interest is saucer full of secrets at the White House By Deborah Orin WELCOME to the great White House UFO cover-up. All the president's men seem quite embarrassed by the revelation - from disgraced First Pal Webb Hubbell - that President Clinton asked him to use his top Justice Department post to find out if UFOs exist. After all, the president as UFO maven isn't exactly Clinton's dream image. Some might even find it laughable - remember how Dems tittered over Nancy Reagan's fascination with astrology? And so, White House spokesman Mike McCurry is doing a full stonewall - he refuses to say whether Hubbell is telling the truth. What is amazing - and appalling - is that the White House press corps is letting him get away with it. As Hubbell tells it in his new book, Clinton sent him to Justice with this mandate as a personal priority: "I want you to find the answers to two questions for me. One, Who killed JFK? And two, Are there UFOs?" Lest anyone think this was a jest, Hubbell adds: "He ^Clinton_ was dead serious. I had looked into both, but wasn't satisfied with the answers I was getting." In fact, Hubbell conceded on CNN last weekend that he was serious enough to ask about UFOs when he met with officials at NORAD, the North American Aerospace Defense Command in Colorado, which monitors satellites and other objects in the skies. "They said no," Hubbell reported. Presumably, this was one of the answers that didn't satisfy him. Hubbell ought to know if Clinton was serious. The disgraced ex-associate attorney general is Hillary Clinton's former law partner and was Bill Clinton's golfing buddy before Hubbell admitted bilking law clients out of $482,000 and went to jail. It's easy to see that Hubbell's revelation poses a big problem for the Clinton team. To confirm it would be to paint Clinton as a bit of a UFO nut (and JFK conspiracy theorist) and invite ridicule from late-night comics. But it would be dumb and dumber for Clinton aides to call Hubbell a liar. That would hand Whitewater prober Ken Starr a weapon, as he seems to be out to prove Hubbell is lying when he denies the fat fees Clinton aides arranged for him were really hush money. Besides, Hubbell is loyally insisting - despite a stint in jail and the risk of another one - that the Clintons did nothing at all wrong regarding Whitewater or anything else. That's not the kind of ally whom you want to tick off by calling him a liar. So McCurry did an all-out stonewall when he was asked if Hubbell is right in saying Clinton has a UFO fascination: "I am not going to respond to the specific things in books that are written." Huh? "A lot of people are going to write books in the course of the next several years ... I'm just not going to respond to each and every thing that occurs in any of these books," McCurry insisted. Oh, wonderful. Books are now off-limits - a kind of v-chip to screen out messy questions. Just imagine if Mayor Giuliani insisted he wouldn't answer any questions about, say, bus advertisements. The press would skewer him. Or imagine if Ronald Reagan's spokesmen had dared refuse to answer questions on books. After all, Nancy Reagan's astrologist popped up in - what else? - a book. Written by ex-Reagan Chief of Staff Don Regan, who was a known enemy of Mrs. Reagan. No one would have stood for the no-books nonsense if Reagan's team had tried it. But McCurry did, and only a few members of the White House press corps protested - everyone else just giggled or rolled over and played dead. Which does show you something about the degree to which the Clinton White House has perfected the art of stonewalling. The Clintons will be back in New York next week, of course, to pass the cup for still more money for the broke Democratic Party. Word is it'll be a unique Clinton husband-and-wife tag-team effort. First, on Tuesday night, Hillary Clinton is slated to star at a Women's Leadership Forum. Next day, the president passes the cup. There's also supposed to be a "message event," but no word on what it might be. That's the supposed policy event on which the White House likes to piggyback fund-raising trips. [W 11]****** Source: The Times newspaper Publish Date: 22nd November 1997 Hacker who broke into Nasa walks free Prosecutors say case was no threat to security, writes Stephen Farrell. A COMPUTER hacker charged with breaking into United States Air Force computers causing damage estimated at Pounds 300,000 walked free from court yesterday. Mathew Bevan, 23, smiled as he left Belmarsh Crown Court, southeast London, with representatives of a tabloid newspaper six months after a London teenager, Richard Pryce, was fined Pounds 1,200 for admitting similar offences. Prosecutors decided it was not in the public interest to pursue a costly case expected to last up to three months involving witnesses flown from America to give evidence against Bevan, the son of a Fraud Squad detective. The decision comes three and a half years after two hackers codenamed Kuji and Datastream Cowboy used the Internet to penetrate Rome Laboratories, the US Air Force's premier command and control research facility at Griffiss Base in New York. Sources close to the US investigation said the intrusions had "serious implications" but did not involve national security. According to a report to the US Senate Affairs Committee the intruders gained access in March 1994 to unclassified files held at Nasa's Goddard Space Flight Centre and computers belonging to Lockheed. Pryce, then 16, from Colindale, North London, who went on to win a scholarship to study the double bass at the Royal College of Music, was fined after he admitted 12 charges of gaining unauthorised access under the Computer Misuse Act. Magistrates were told he "caused more harm than the KGB". Another institution allegedly penetrated by the pair was Wright- Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio, where wilder elements among UFO conspiracy theorists believe alien spacecraft are secretly held. Bevan, who cheerfully acknowledges being obsessed with aliens, nevertheless denied three charges of gaining unwarranted access to USAF and Lockheed computers between March and May 1994. The charges related to the alteration of data by the alleged insertion of a "sniffer" program designed to gain access to systems. The investigation was carried out by Scotland Yard's Computer Crime Unit and the US Air Force's Office of Special Investigations (OSI). Initial charges of conspiracy against the pair were dropped at an earlier hearing. Pony-tailed Bevan, an X Files addict, obsessed with UFOs, lived a twin existence and saw himself as the Nick Leeson of the hacking world. An Admiral Insurance computer operator by day, at night he sat beneath posters of his fictional FBI heroes, Mulder and Scully, hacking around the world as real-life American investigators on his electronic trail suspected him of being one of the most sophisticated and dangerous hackers they had ever encountered. In an interview with The Times Bevan admitted gaining access to computers belonging to the US Air Force, Nasa and the defence contractors Lockheed, but adamantly denied ever altering data. He insists his motive was curiosity, not personal gain. "I was after information about UFOs. I just wanted to find evidence of all the conspiracy theories - alien abductions, the 1947 Roswell landings and Nasa faking the moon landings - and where better to look than their computer files?" he said. "The US Air Force posts details of its personnel and network addresses on the Internet so anything you want you can get if you know how. It was a challenge." One source close to the American investigation, however, said: "At one stage they were connected to Latvia and the South Korean Atomic Research Institute, which raised serious concerns about the former Eastern Bloc and information warfare." Bevan was 12 when he was given a Sinclair ZX81 for Christmas from his parents, Elaine, a nurse, and Thomas, a detective sergeant with the South Wales Fraud Squad. Despite spending up to 36 hours at a time on the keyboard the family telephone bills never exceeded Pounds 60 because he mastered the technique of "blue-boxing", gaining free calls by sending electronic pulses down the line to trick BT software into thinking a call was over. His Holy Grail was to prove that alien spacecraft are stored in conditions of strict secrecy at Area 51 of Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio - as suggested in the film Independence Day . Although he claims to have seen convincing evidence of their presence, no evidence is forthcoming. Pryce was arrested at his parents home in Colindale in May 1994 and Bevan in June last year. All his equipment was seized, leading, he admits, to withdrawal symptoms. "It is all about control, really. I'm in my little room with my little computer breaking into the biggest computers in the world and suddenly I have more control over this machine than them. That is where the buzz comes from. Anyone who says they are a reformed hacker is talking rubbish. If you are a hacker, you are always a hacker. It's a state of mind." uk.ufo.nw says: The below report appeared in issue {73} of the e-zine. Source: Today@NASA Date: 6th March 1997 Yes, it's true. We got hacked. We're back. At noon EST on March 5, hackers got into the server that houses the main NASA Web page, www.nasa.gov, and replaced it with a page of their own design. The replacement page, which was available for about 30 minutes, contained a diatribe against commercialization of the Internet and protested the criminal prosecution of two hackers. After system administrators assessed the damage (none beyond the affected page) and did some other work to prevent a recurrence, the server was back online at 9:30 a.m. March 6. Apologies to those who were unable to access desired pages. [W 12]****** Source: Fox10 News Transmission Date: 18th November 1997 From: bernhard.nahrgang@ob.kamp.net (Bernhard Nahrgang) Men in Black intercept 'Phoenix Lights' video footage? (transcribed from a FOX10 NEWS (Phx.) report reported by Jim Schnebelt) FROM THE FOX-10 '10 files'... (on screen: stock "Phoenix Lights" footage, of lights suspended in sky) voiceover: Months after this (March 13) sighting there are many questions regarding the strange lights over Phoenix. Is this a solid craft, or merely lights in an empty sky? What could be the conclusive evidence is now mysteriously missing. Richard Curtis claims his home video is proof that this sighting was a huge flying craft. And he claims his video shows a solid object in the sky passing over his home. (on screen: cut to head shot of Curtis.) Curtis: I saw the bottom part (of the craft) as it went over Phoenix, because the lights lit the bottom of it, and it partially blocked out the clouds and the stars. voiceover: Curtis called city councilwoman Frances Emma Barwood, wanting to show her the footage. (on screen: cut to head shot of Barwood) Barwood: He said he had it on two videotapes, and would I like them, so I said, "Of course I would.", and could he give me copies of them. He said he would. I told him how to get them to my office and to mark them 'personal and confidential'. (on screen: cheesy slo-mo video "re-enactment" of Men in Black walking about) voiceover: But before Curtis could send copies to Barwood, he's paid a visit by two mysterious men in black. Curtis:(voiced over MIB reenactments) They were dressed in black suits, with black hats and sunglasses. They asked me if I had tapes for coucilwoman Barwood, and I said "Yah, they're laying right here." They said, "We've stopped by to pick them up." So I said, "Great!" and just handed (the original tapes) to them. (on screen: cut to head shot of Barwood) Barwood: I didn't get them, and I have no idea who these two men were since I have just females working in my office. Its absolutely puzzling to me. (on screen: cut to slo-mo MIB, one of them now holding videotapes...(!) ) voiceover: Did the tapes ever exist, and if so were they proof of more than "lights" in the sky? And who were these mysterious Men in Black who allegedly took them? (as slo-mo MIB vid continues...) Curtis (voiced over): I think someone listened in on that phone call and wanted those tapes. Barwood (voiced over): I can't explain it. Its just eerie. Voiceover: The mystery continues. Jim Schnebelt, Fox-10 News. end story, cut to anchor [W 13]****** Source: USA Today Publish Date: 20th November 1997 Records Destroyed The (USA's) National Archives and the Navy blame each other for the inadvertent destruction of records chronicling what the Archives calls "some of the most significant technical achievements in the 20th Century." The 4,200 scientific notebooks and 600 boxes of correspondence and technical memos of the Naval Research Laboratory were "pulped beyond recognition," the Archives said. Some records were of rocket development, the early space program and development of radar. [W 14]****** Source: BBC World Service Publish Date: Wednesday 19th November 1997 Chile to investigate reported UFO sightings The Chilean airforce has set up a special committee to investigate reported sightings of unidentified flying objects, or UFOs. A government spokesman said reputable sources -- such as pilots and air traffic controllers -- had sometimes reported seeing objects for which there was no immediate explanation. The committee, he said, would attempt to determine whether or not the objects were naturally-occurring phenomena. There are said to have been about sixty incidents this year alone. In May a convention of UFO experts was held in the Chilean capital, Santiago. [W 15]****** Source: CNN News Date: Sunday 7th December 1997 Brazil to Host UFO Forum Brasilia will host the 1st World Forum of Ufology from December 7 to 14, the Rio de Janeiro-based Periodico de Comercio daily reported today. The term ufology refers to the Unidentified Flying Object, or popularly known as the UFO. Nearly 60 specialists from the United States, Russia and Latin America are scheduled to join the event. Organizers said the forum will be based on the conviction that the increasing number of people who have witnessed some kind of phenomenon related to UFOs, or that can be described as UFOs, is enough evidence to give it official acknowledgment. In June 24, 1947, an American businessman reported he saw a flying "saucer- shaped" object. It was the first time the world heard about UFOs. Since then, civil and military pilots reportedly have claimed to have seen such "aircraft." The date of the first UFO report, 50 years ago, will be commemorated at the forum in Brazil. [W 16]****** Source: BBC Publish Date: Sunday 7th December 1997 Brazil - largest UFO meeting ever (December 1997) Close encounters of an extra-terrestial kind Grainy photos, allegedly of flying saucers, have failed to prove the existence of UFO's. International scientists have gathered in the Brazilian capital, Brasilia, for a week-long conference which aims to take a serious look at unidentified flying objects. The conference has been billed as the largest gathering of its kind, with more than 50 top UFO researchers from across the world expected to take part. The theory that intelligent beings have visited or are visiting Planet Earth has attracted its share of eccentrics. But ufologists, as they call themselves, want the United Nations to recognise their science as a legitimate subject for study. Mars fragment rekindled debate over extra-terrestrial life. The discovery of fossilised micro-organisms in a tiny fragment of a meteorite from Mars has rekindled the debate over extra-terrestrial life. According to Nasa scientists, the fossilised remains are the first scientific proof that life can exist elsewhere. I want to believe. The popularity of science fiction films like Hollywood's Men in Black and television series like The X Files are a testimony to our fascination with the subject of extra-terrestial life. A recent poll in the United States showed that some 60% of people believe in the existence of intelligent life-forms in space. 'Take me to your leader' Despite decades of grainy photographs of flying saucers and other supposed space ships, the existence of UFOs has never been proven. A recently declassified CIA document claims that many of the UFO sightings were experimental jets and the top secret spy planes of their day. Rational explanations often fall on deaf ears. Ufology is a science which lends itself to conspiracy theories and claims of massive government cover-ups. The town of Roswell in New Mexico claims to be the sight of an UFO crash landing in 1947 in which the bodies of aliens were found. It has built a thriving tourist trade around its extra-terrestial connection and even boasts a UFO museum. Speakers from across the world The list of international speakers invited: Antonio Las Heras (Argentina) Barry Chamish (Israel) Bob Brown (USA) Bud Hopkins (USA) Colin Andrews ( England) Cynthia Hind (Zimbabwe) Darush Bagheri (Iran) Derrel Sims (USA) Donald Ware (USA) Edgar Mitchel (USA) G C Schellhorn (USA) Gbor Tarcali (Hungary) Glennys Mackay (Australia) Graham Birdsall (England) Jaime Maussan ( Mexico) Jaime Rodriguez (Ecuador) James Hurtak (USA) Javier Cabrera Darquea (Peru) Javier Sierra (Spain) Jerome Clark (USA) Jesse Marcel Junior (USA) Joaquim Fernandes (Portugal) John Carpenter (USA) John Mack (USA) Johsen Takano (Japan) Jorge Alfonso Ramirez (Paraguay) Jorge Martin (Port Rico) Leo Sprinkle (USA) Leonard Nimoy (USA) Linda Howe (USA) Mario Dussuel (Chile) Mark Carlotto (USA) Mauricio Baiata (Italy) Michael Hesemann (Germany) Per Andersen (Denmark) Richard Hoagland (USA) Robert Bauval (England) Robert Dean (USA) Roberto Banchs (Argentina) Roberto Pinotti (Italy) Rodrigo Fuenzalida (Chile) Ryszard Fiejtek (Poland) S. O. Svensson (Sweden) Stanton Friedman (Canada) Sun-Shi Li (China) Timo Koskeniemmi (Finland) Tony Dodd (England) Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos (Spain) Walter Andrus ( USA) Wendelle Stevens (USA) Yuri Guerassimov (Russia) Yves Bosson (France) Yvonne Smith (USA) -[continued in part 3]-
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 {86} part 3 - United Kingdom UFO Network From: United Kingdom UFO Network <ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:39:05 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:57:55 -0500 Subject: {86} part 3 - United Kingdom UFO Network ______ _______ ____ ------ / / // ____// |---------------------------------------------- U K / / // ___/ / / ' Dec 13th, 1997 / / // / / / / N E T W O R K part 3 Issue 86 --- (_____//__/ -- (_____/------------------------------------------------ The United Kingdom UFO Network - a free electronic magazine with subscribers in over 40 countries. This issue comes in 3 parts. If any part is missing please mail: ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk giving the issue number. The issue will be reposted to you. Please put the details as below in the subject section e.g. Repost {86} part 1, part 2 or part 3. [W 17]****** Source: Ross Dowe, National UFO Hotline NZ From: Eric Howarth: erich@cycor.ca Date: 17th November 1997 From: 'Sightings On The Radio' web page: http://www.sightings.com/ Military Admits To Having A 'Flying Saucer' FORT BENNING, Ga. -- The truth may be out there for UFO conspiracy buffs, but here military officials admit flying saucers have taken over the skies. The U.S. Army has been test-flying the CYPHER Unmanned Aerial Vehicle - a doughnut-shaped aircraft - for the past six years at the military post just outside of Columbus. CYPHER uses two sets of rotating blades that are mounted in the aircraft's center to propel the machine. Hence, giving the aircraft its whirring sound and UFO look. The aircraft's design allows it to hover over an area for as long as the fuel lasts. That capability distinguishes it from other unmanned aircraft currently being tested, said Mike Barnes, project director at the military post. CYPHER, which earned its name because of its ability to decode underground structures and secret tunnels, was created by Sikorsky Aircraft Inc. in Los Angeles. ``The uses are absolutely endless,'' said test pilot Pvt. Brent Satterfield of Fort McClellan, Ala. ``If we had a hostage situation, we could use an infrared camera (in the CYPHER) to find out where everyone is in the house, where the exits are, and then we can plan out a better plan of attack.'' The aircraft could also be used to drop off supplies to soldiers or disburse unruly crowds without subjecting pilots to danger, Barnes said. ``We take these technologies and put them in the hands of soldiers and see if they can help them perform their mission,'' he said. But Barnes and military officials admit, it's the CYPHER's covert capabilities that make it even more appealing. Inside the CYPHER, a video camera and a navigation computer - similar to those used in cruise missiles - would allow the military to survey enemy territory and areas attacked by poison gas or other hazardous bombs. Sikorsky, which also manufactured the UH-1 Huey and UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters, also made room for a pilot onboard the CYPHER. During a test flight Tuesday, Spc. Jacob Terrell, 21, flew the CYPHER over a crowd of cardboard dummies and hovered 150 feet above the ground before releasing canisters of smoke - simulating tear gas. ``It was just like a computer game. It's extremely easy to fly,'' Terrell said. If Army officials in Washington approve of the aircraft, CYPHER engineers say they can build the aircraft in a variety of sizes - from a 40-pound model that can be carried in a backpack to the size of a cargo helicopter. A price tag has not yet been set and officials would not comment on the price of the prototype. While military officials and Columbus police say they have yet to receive reports of UFO sightings when the CYPHER is tested,engineers and military officials laugh at theories fueled by the Internet and television shows, such as Fox's ``X-Files,'' that such technology is alien in origin. Regards Ross Dowe National UFO Hotline NZ 0900 58 367 Letters ======= Scottish Star Wars - they got it partly wrong uk.ufo.nw says: Readers will remember the sensational story from the last issue of the e-zine {85} in which the Sun newspaper printed witnesses reports of UFO battle's over Scotland. The main witness to these sightings was David Ledger. Dave wrote us the following letter - putting the record straight - From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk> Date: Thursday 20th November 1997 Hi again Dave, Many thanks for your letter. In relation to the newspaper article in the Sun paper that you speak of..........I strongly suggest that it is not taken too seriously as the original story has been twisted and totally sensationalised by the press. If you haven't visited my site yet and would like to know the real story which prompted the newspaper interest, you will find it all there. I have included an article from our local paper also which is far more accurate than the Sun's story. Our sighting experiences were indeed spectacular, but not as fantastic as the sun made them out to be. There was no excuse for this as the whole interview was done over two days with lengthy phone calls, involving seven of the nine witnesses. Surely in that length of time they would have got the jist of it. I personally spoke to them the most and was very careful with what I said etc. I have had press experiences with my band in the past and I know full well, what they are capable of. However, my caution obviously failed, in my attempt to get a good clear account of what really did happen, in the press. Still, on a positive note, it did draw a lot of people out to come forward with their stories, which probably would not have happened if we hadn't have spoke out about what we saw. Dave Ledger (UFO Scotland) http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger --- A FEARFUL SYMMETRY A TRUE STORY OF ALIEN INTRUSION INTO HUMAN LIVES By D. Lynne Bishop A FEARFUL SYMMETRY Copyright 1995 by D. Lynne Bishop All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical including photocopying, recording or otherwise without prior permission of the publisher, except by a reviewer who may quote brief passages. First Printing September 1995 Printed in the United States of America BOOKFINDER PUBLISHING http://bookfinder.simplenet.com/ Lynne Bishop's home page http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3862/ --- CHAPTER 8 At the conclusion of my sister's regression, the hypnotherapist had again cautioned her about the necessity of not sharing any details of the session with Mother, until after September 6, the date of Mother's next session. The memories retrieved at this I had already discovered, through the progression of my search for answers, that for every query sufficiently explained, many more unsolved mysteries rushed in to fill the void. I was learning to live with the inevitable frustration caused by this--but With this thought firmly entrenched, my husband and some friends of ours decided to take matters into our own hands. If the spaceship would not come to us, perhaps we could go to the spaceship. On a crystal-clear night, we packed up all the gear needed As the sky darkened, our small group drew nearer together. Suddenly, someone quietly said, "There's something up there, directly overhead." Four pairs of eyes immediately swung upward, focusing on a large, white spot of light. There were no other ligh September 6 arrived, and we made the pilgrimage yet again to Springfield. The route had become so familiar by now, we almost felt the car could be put on auto-pilot. Still, we watched the skies for silver discs, and alternately, our watches for indicat John and Ann welcomed our crew, as we disembarked from the car, and entered the office. Again, there was a lengthy pre-hypnosis interview, and the excerpts follow: John: . . . Tell us that story, now. Frances: Well, anyhoo, when I was little--somewhere between five and seven--we lived in Houston. At that time Houston was a small city. There were many roads out to the forest. We used to go nut hunting, right on the environs. We were always making Anyway, this one night we went out north of town. It was after sundown, but just good and dusky dark. Not pitch dark--although this event lasted until pitch dark. So we drove up and down roads, and that's when Mom got to where she hated dirt roads. So, we see this red glow through the trees . . . and we were fire bugs, my sisters and I. We thought everything was a fire, so we wanted to go see it. We drove on and on, and finally gave up; decided we weren't going to find it. We'd go down this road We were very independent--very. Daddy didn't have any boys, so we learned to work on automobiles, and do all those weird little things that girls in the '20's didn't do. So, naturally, when my own kids came along, I figured they could live the way I di John: When was your mother born? Frances: 1896, I believe. Mother was quite reserved about things--very personal. She talked to me more than she did any of the sisters. Mom and I had . . . a weird relationship. I was a middle kid; had two older sisters and a younger one. And Mothe My dad was part Irish, so he probably still thought that there were "Changelings." His parents came over from Ireland, but he was orphaned when he was eight years old. He lived with his aunt--his mother's sister. They originated in Protestant Ireland- John: Did your mother ever tell you about any strange dreams? Frances: No, as I said, Mother was rather reserved. Her life had been like so many of her era, you know . . . circumscribed. Her mother had died when she was very young. Mom was the next to the oldest child. Her brother was older than she--he was ab John: Did your mom ever make any comment about the dirt road thing? Frances: No--just that she wouldn't go down it, if it was a dirt road. She had other phobias, too. She wouldn't lock her house, and living in Houston, we all thought she'd get murdered in her sleep. But she didn't like closed-in places--had claustrop John: Okay. So, what do you think of all this at this point? Frances: Well, I think there is something happening to people. The way we tell it has a great deal to do with our perceptions, and our own mental approach to things. I'm more cut-and-dried. I under-describe things in "real life," compared to a lot of If this is "get it off your chest" day . . . okay. My daughters have come here and said, "You're going to think I'm weird, but . . . " So, okay, you're going to think I'm weird, along with them and probably everyone else in the family. I've had two we John: Okay. Tell us about them. Frances: My youngest daughter (the author of this book) used to own horses. We had saddle horses, and she took them to shows. I pulled the horse-trailer. One night, there had been a rodeo in a neighboring town. There's a creek that crosses right in And then, some years later, my youngest daughter and I were at a rodeo in that same town. We'd been there, I suppose, about thirty minutes. I say, "Oh, my God!", and she wants to know what's the matter with me. And I tell her I'm seeing someone being So . . . yeah, we're weird. Maybe our minds can link in some strange fashion. John: Okay. Tell us abut the time you and your other daughter were together, back in the late 1980's . . . Frances: I have very strong conscious memory about parts of that, and other parts are confused. We were driving down the road into a curve, just prior to a straight stretch. There are trees on either side of the road, and from nowhere comes this white Anyway, this thing is virtually nicking the tops of the trees, and we thought it was going to fall on top of us. There was no noise, we thought it was going to crash. I don't remember where she stopped, but I remember seeing it under the power lines. The plane was white--bright white--and it really stood out to look at it. But there are some really clear facts, and other parts are very fuzzy. It's just like the incident that occurred to my other daughter and me (back in 1972.) HYPNOSIS SESSION September 6, 1992 John: (Hypnotic regression had been induced at this point, and the time- frame had been returned to the time of the incident.) . . . And as you're driving along, you can describe what you're noticing . . Frances: The car was the blue one. It was bigger than the one she has now. I'm in the front seat. My daughter's driving. Her older son is behind me. I'm not sure if the other boy is behind my daughter. The weather is nice, and the windows are down My daughter drove up into a driveway by a white house. She stopped, and then we looked. It seemed like it was under the power lines, but I don't know how it could have gotten there. My daughter leaned out one window to look, and I leaned out the other John: Describe the thing as it's sitting under the lines. Frances: It's shimmery . . . like heat waves . . . shimmery. John: What's the next thing that happens? Frances: She says, "Let's go to the airport." John: When the thing went over, what was its flight pattern like? Frances: Very smooth . . . Real quiet . . . like a kite floating. Very glider-like. John: Are there any other people around? Frances: Just me and my daughter. I don't see the kids right now. I'm not comfortable with not knowing where they are. But . . . I don't seem to . . . need to know . . . right then. John: What did you do next? Frances: The next thing I see is the airport. But I don't remember turning around. I can't get beyond that. I'm uncomfortable with that. It's . . . very blank! I have nothing in between seeing the thing on the ground, and then being at the airport. John: All right. Since the airport is the next thing you remember, what do you recall about that? Frances: We got out of the car and went around the building to talk to the intendant. There were three men standing by a blue and white airplane. It was just a small, common airplane. The men were gassing it up. It's like the cowling and the fuselage John: Do you have any other memory beyond that? Frances: Just going home, and telling my daughter's husband about it. John: What time was it when you got home? Frances: It was late afternoon, just before dark. John: How much time had passed? Frances: Hm . . . I think about two hours. John: Are there any other people around? Frances: My daughter's older boy should have been there. I know I saw him once, but after the airplane, I don't know. John: Wouldn't you be concerned about him? Frances: I guess . . . on some level . . . I knew where he was. John: What do you think that means? Frances: Well . . . It's like I really was there for part of the ride, and not there for part of the ride. I think I must have been left behind. Most of it is . . . just blank. My sensation is that he wasn't in the car when we went under that stupid John: (After assurances of well-being, the hypnotist tried to ease Mother into being able to look behind the block she had encountered.) . . . Everyone is quite safe; there's nothing to be concerned about . . . Can you go back in; take a quick peek at t Frances: Uh, uh! I don't want to know what's there! I just blacked it all out. I put it in one of my little boxes that I put things in and shut doors on. John: This one says, "Do not open"? Frances: (Affirmative nod.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- UNITED KINGDOM UFO NETWORK STATEMENT uk.ufo.nw statement: The articles or text appearing within these pages are not necessarily the views or opinions of United Kingdom UFO Network. 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 {86} part 1 - United Kingdom UFO Network From: United Kingdom UFO Network <ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:39:05 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:41:20 -0500 Subject: {86} part 1 - United Kingdom UFO Network ______ _______ ____ ------ / / // ____// |---------------------------------------------- U K / / // ___/ / / ' Dec 13th, 1997 / / // / / / / N E T W O R K part 1 Issue 86 --- (_____//__/ -- (_____/------------------------------------------------ The United Kingdom UFO Network - a free electronic magazine with subscribers in over 40 countries. This issue comes in 3 parts. If any part is missing please mail: ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk giving the issue number. The issue will be reposted to you. Please put the details as below in the subject section e.g. Repost {86} part 1, part 2 or part 3. In this issue: Editorial --------- Lynne Bishop's 'A Fearful Symmetry' Alien song titles Alien and UFO jokes, yet another request The Great Toad Mystery United Kingdom News ------------------- [UK 1] Object over Bangor North Wales UK [UK 2] Nazi Saucer! [UK 3] Freedom of Information plans finalised [UK 4] Minister orders inquiry after BBC leak [UK 5] Apologies after BBC reveals secrets [UK 6] Move on Freedom of Information [UK 7] Paper to open up Whitehall to public World News ---------- [W 1] Inventor of jet plane dies [W 2] Large triangular UFO seen over Santa Barbara Channel, Ca. [W 3] Mutant Rats [W 4] Chinese Scholars Tap Physics To Learn About Flying Saucers [W 5] NASA's Deep Space 1 spacecraft to study Mars [W 6] UFO enthusiast in N.Y. found unfit to stand trial [W 7] Judge sends John Ford to N.Y. Mental Hospital [W 8] Bill wanted UFO probe: Hubbell book [W 9] Clinton looked for evidence of UFOs [W 10] Bill's UFO interest is saucer full of secrets at the White House [W 11] Hacker who broke into Nasa walks free [W 12] Men in Black intercept 'Phoenix Lights' video footage? [W 13] Records Destroyed [W 14] Chile to investigate reported UFO sightings [W 15] Brazil to Host UFO Forum [W 16] Brazil - largest UFO meeting ever (December 1997) [W 17] Military Admits To Having A 'Flying Saucer' Letters ------- Scottish Star Wars - they got it partly wrong Book serialisation ------------------ A FEARFUL SYMMETRY A TRUE STORY OF ALIEN INTRUSION INTO HUMAN LIVES By D. Lynne Bishop Editorial ========= UK.UFO.NW would like to thank Lynne Bishop and Bookfinder Publishing for allowing us to continue serialising Lynne's fascinating book 'A Fearful Symmetry'. The response to Lynne's book has been overwhelming. -- Thank you very much to all those of you who wrote in with song title's etc to our recent request. I was amazed at just how many songs were out there either about or mentioning aliens and/or UFOs. The information received is being written up into an article for a near future issue of the e-zine. -- It is often said that ufologists and those interested in the phenomenon find it difficult to laugh at themselves or the subject. This is so true. Now is your chance to change all that albeit slightly. Here is another request for you. There must be text jokes out there about our favourite subject. Collect them up, type them out and send them in. Lets see how many text jokes we can collect. Lets bring a little light heartiness to ufology. As usual when sending text to be published in the e-zine please let us know if you wish to remain anonymous. -- Readers may recall that in the last issue we published our 1997 Skywatch report. In it the below story was mentioned as recalled by Tom: 'Some time ago, an article appeared in a magazine telling of a road crew blasting a tunnel through a mountainside in France. Apparently, after one particular blast, when the dust settled a baby teradactile staggered out of the gloom, coughed once and promptly fell over dead!!!' Thanks to an observant reader we can reveal the full article relating to this story. From: David Skinner <david@drspc.demon.co.uk> Date sent: Saturday 22nd November 1997 Upon reading the Skywatch report, I too remembered reading of the fossilised Pterodactyl in the rock. After a few moments thought, I recalled where I had read it. It's reproduced below. From page 147 of the early eighties' periodical "The Unexplained", chapter entitled "The Great Toad Mystery": In the winter of 1856, French workmen were blasting a tunnel to carry the railway line from Saint-Dizier to Nancy when they came across a monstrous form' in the darkness. They had just split open a huge boulder of 'lias' or Jurassic limestone, when the thing staggered from a cavity within the rock, rattled its wings, gave a hoarse cry, and died without further ado. It was the size and shape of a large goose, though its head was 'hideous' and its mouth contained sharp teeth. Four long legs ended in hooked talons and were joined by a bat-like membrane, and the skin itself was black, leathery, thick and oily. Somewhat gingerly, the workmen carried the carcase to the nearby town of Gray where, according to a report in the Illustrated London News of 9 February, 1856, a naturalist, versed in palaeontology, immediately recognised it as belonging to the genus (sic) Pterodactylus anas. The rock strata from which it had come tallied with the era in which pterodactyls flourished, and it was noted that the cavity whence it had emerged formed an exact hollow mould of its body, which indicates that it was completely enveloped with the sedimentary deposit. United Kingdom News =================== [UK 1]****** Source: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> From: baylissl@gwent-tertiary.ac.uk Object over Bangor North Wales UK Joe Henry - Minnesota MUFON On Sunday November 16th at 16:10 hrs GMT an object was sighted moving South to North over Bangor North Wales, UK. The object was observed from the upper floor of the University Library. When the object was first sighted it was bright white in colour, then it entered a cloud, when it emerged it was a Yellow/Gold in colour, and had a similarity to the rescue helicopters which operate in the area. But the object showed no characteristic rotor blades or flotation/undercarriage struts port and starboard. It had no flashing warning strobes and no ensignia denoting its origin. The shape was similar to a tear drop on its side. The motion seemed to be too smooth to be a helicopter or other aircraft. It did not reappear once out of sight. The object was at approximately 500ft with the sun to its starboard. The forward portion of the "fuselage" had a black/dark area which led me to compare it to the Sea King helicopter in the Search and Rescue colours. There was no forward canopy visible. The craft was in sight for approximately 8-10 seconds. I am an experienced ex-military aircraft observer and am proficient in aircraft recognition. Hope this is of some interest to you. Thanks for your time. uk.ufo.nw is attempting to make further enquiries into this sighting. [UK 2]****** Source: Sci-Fi Channels sightings page URL: http://www.scifi.com/sightings/ From: bernhard.nahrgang@ob.kamp.net (Bernhard Nahrgang) Nazi Saucer! Milton Keynes, England, it's not the kind of place where we expect to get new information on real life flying saucers. But after our recent report on a shaped aircraft in Canada, top secret American saucer projects and Germany's development of craft like this during World War II, a SIGHTINGS Researcher received A letter from viewer D. Robin Stowell. A typesetter by trade, Stowell alerted us to the book, Brighter Than A Thousand Suns. An authoritative history of the race to build the first Atomic Bomb. Stowell typeset the original manuscript nearly forty years ago. And never forgot this brief reference to a Nazi Saucer that could out-maneuver any allied aircraft. Four decades after publication, Stowell found a copy of the out of print reference book and confirmed what he had long remembered. The footnote describes German Saucers that were forty five yards across, capable of reaching speeds over Mach One and climbing to an elevation of nearly eight miles. Some experts believe that these Nazi Saucers could have been responsible for the legendary Foo Fighter sightings over Europe late in World War II. But if they were, it still does not explain Foo Fighters spotted over the Pacific during the same period. [UK 3]****** uk.ufo.nw says: The below report appeared during the morning of Tuesday 9th December. The next two reports appeared later the same day. Source: BBC Ceefax Date: a.m. Tuesday 9th December 1997 Freedom of Information plans finalised Government freedom of information plans go further than many observers expected a BBC correspondent says. The Minister responsible, David Clark, is set to unveil the plans this week. They are understood to include an independent commissioner who can force Government departments to release information which is requested. But information could be withheld if the commissioner believes it to be in the public interest. [UK 4]****** Source: BBC Ceefax Date: p.m. Tuesday 9th December 1997 Minister orders inquiry after BBC leak A Minister has been forced to apologise over leaks of new Government legislation on freedom of information. It follows a BBC report that a White Paper on the issue goes further than first thought, with plans to make public the workings of Government. Dr David Clark, the Public Service Minister, apologised to Parliament and said he will investigate the leak. The White Paper is due to be published on Thursday. [UK 5]****** Source: Teletext Date: p.m. Tuesday 9th December 1997 Apologies after BBC reveals secrets Public Service Minister Dr David Clark has apologised to the Commons for the disclosure on the BBC of features of a White Paper not yet published. The Freedom of Information document should have been kept under wraps. Dr Clark said: "No one is more annoyed than I," adding that he took the matter "very seriously" and was looking into it. [UK 6]****** Source: Teletext Date: Thursday 11th December 1997 Move on Freedom of Information Plans for an Independent Information Commissioner with powers to compel Whitehall to release files to the public are being officially unveiled. The paper foreshadows a Freedom of Information Act allowing the public to demand information from the Government. Civil Servants will be banned from evading their duties of disclosure by destroying official records. [UK 7]****** Source: BBC Ceefax Date: Thursday 11th December 1997 Paper to open up Whitehall to public Plans for an independent Information Commissioner with powers to compel Whitehall to release files to the public are to be unveiled. The White Paper is intended to foreshadow a Freedom of Information Act. This will ensure for the first time in law the right of the public to demand information from the Government. Details of the paper were leaked on Tuesday forcing Public Services Minister David Clark to apologise. World News ========== [W 1]****** Source: Teletext World News Date: 21st November 1997 Inventor of jet plane dies Germany: Carl Neubronner, inventor of the jet plane in 1912, has died at the age of 101. [W 2]****** From: "A.J. Craddock" <webmaster@cseti.org> Date: Sunday 16th November 1997 Large triangular UFO seen over Santa Barbara Channel, Ca. At approximately 10:05 pm on Friday 14th November, Dr. Ted Loder and Tony Craddock were checking out new nightscopes from Tony's house overlooking the Santa Barbara Channel. Ted was using an ITT Night Mariner (Model G3) and Tony a Litton NightMate (Model Nav3) each with a light magnification of 30,000 to 50,000x. They both happened to be looking through the nightscopes at Jupiter, which was about ten degrees above the horizon and over the island of San Miguel. Simultaneously they both saw a set of lights near Jupiter in the shape of a large triangle silently flying eastward down the Santa Barbara Channel. They followed it for about six seconds until it disappeared behind some trees. Both realized that the visible lights were on the outside edges of a large craft which was not itself visible in the night scopes. A few seconds after the initial recognition, both saw the craft tilt slightly on its side so that its triangular shape could be more clearly seen. Its shape was delineated by five to eight lights along its edges clearly visible through the nightscopes. Ted Loder counted five or six lights in the shape of a triangle seen partly on its side, while Tony Craddock saw an additional one or two lights in the center towards the rear, making it appear chevron or boomerang shaped. Tony had the clearer nightscope which may explain why he was able to see the extra lights. Both had the impression that it was not lights independently flying in formation but a solid craft. The length of the craft appeared to be longer than the sword on Orion's belt and shorter than Orion's belt itself. The craft was not visible with the naked eye and was not seen by the two other people who were present without nightscopes. It was later estimated that the craft traveled through a visible arc of 75 degrees in about 6 seconds. It was estimated that the craft was at a distance of 5-10 miles, which would have meant it was traveling at approximately 4000-8000 mph. Both Ted Loder and Tony Craddock are members of CSETI (Center for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence), and attended CSETI's Congressional Briefing on UFO/ET in Washington DC on April 9th of this year. Dr. Loder is a Professor of Earth Sciences at the University of New Hampshire. Tony Craddock is President of an international petroleum consulting company and co-ordinates Santa Barbara's CSETI Working Group. [W 3]****** Source: Teletext World News Date: 24th November 1997 Mutant Rats Chile: An ecology group has warned of 2ft long "mutant" rats that have attacked barnyard animals in Santiago. [W 4]****** Source: Wall Street Journal Publish Date: Friday 7th November 1997 From: baylissl@gwent-tertiary.ac.uk Chinese Scholars Tap Physics To Learn About Flying Saucers By KATHY CHEN Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL BEIJING -- In ever-changing China, which in places has rocketed from agrarian poverty to urban modernity in less than a decade, nothing seems impossible these days. Not even UFOs. That may explain why 60-year-old Sun Shili, professor of international trade at Beijing's University of International Business and Economics, is holding court at China's hallowed Academy of Science along with a South Korean delegation from something called the Embassy of Extraterrestrials. Mr. Sun poses with a dress-up alien In the West, unidentified flying objects and alien abductions are the stuff of Hollywood pulp and supermarket tabloids. But in China, UFOs are a matter of great national importance. Prof. Sun's group, the Chinese UFO Research Association, receives government grants, and its members include some of the nation's most respected scientists and academics -- even Communist Party officials. These enthusiasts aren't merely trying to prove the existence of UFOs: They are attempting to figure out what makes them fly and then harness that power for everyday use in China. "UFOs are faster than any airplane or car," Prof. Sun explains. "We hope to use the UFO phenomenon to resolve China's energy and efficiency problems." The professor, who once worked as a translator for Mao Tse-tung, adds that while "the focus of foreign UFO studies on sightings is a little passive," in China "we've always linked our research with science." Of course, classifying the study of UFOs as "science" protects Prof. Sun and his group from Communist Party prohibitions against engaging in superstition. And China does have its official skeptics: Ji Fusheng, general director of the Department of Basic Research and High Technology of the China Association for Science and Technology, says "the study of UFOs does no harm, but I believe it won't have any concrete results." Yo-Yo Mao A serious scholar with a dignified air, Prof. Sun experienced what he says was his first and only close encounter in 1969, when he spotted a bright orb bouncing like a yo-yo above the horizon during a Maoist learn-from-the-peasants campaign at a rural cooperative. Not having heard of flying saucers, "I thought it was a Soviet reconnaissance plane," he recounts. Mr. Sun only considered the other-worldly possibilities of his sighting after the author of a Spanish-language book on UFOs sent him a copy to translate. At the time, Mr. Sun was working for the government, even translating for Mao during meetings with Spanish-speaking dignitaries. Before long, Mr. Sun had become the nation's leading UFO expert. He attended official conferences organized and funded by the government. A vice premier, Yao Yilin, wrote a commentary in 1980 urging the Chinese to respect his findings. Sitting in his Beijing apartment in a study crammed with UFO books, Mr. Sun recounts how he helped transform the nation's UFO association from a science-fiction club, founded at Wuhan University in 1979, into a nationwide organization with 5,000 members. One of his first moves after taking the helm in 1986 was to use his connections in government and academia to move the association's membership away from mostly students and laborers. He stepped up contact with the outside world, attending international conferences and posing for photos with dress-up aliens. Today, he brags, "80% of our members are college graduates or above." Gao Ge is characteristic of the members Prof. Sun has been trying to recruit. The 52-year-old scientist at Beijing Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics holds three Chinese patents and one U.S. patent for aerospace-related advances, as well as China's National First-Class Invention prize for his research on improving the efficiency of jet engines. Ever since spotting what he says was an orange UFO in Miami, where he was a visiting professor at Florida Atlantic University in 1990, Mr. Gao has been trying to build his own. What he envisions is an ellipsoid with tiny wings that he says can take off vertically and move like an alien spaceship, albeit at subsonic speed. Beds and Dragonfly Wings Mr. Gao says he has test-flown a wooden prototype with the dimensions of a king-size bed. He is confident that, someday, with his craft's maneuverability and energy-saving "vortex generator" (a device that creates lift much like dragonfly wings) "you won't need airplanes anymore." He can't offer much more than a description, however: He says Beijing Institute has labeled his invention top secret and has banned him from showing even blueprints to outsiders. Strolling by a lily pond at a senior citizens' recreation center in the southern city of Guiyang, another UFO buff and association member, Ma Ruian, 54, envisions a future filled with superfast submarines, floating cars and energy-saving ships shaped like flounders -- all gunned by his patented flying globe. Mr. Ma conducts some of his experiments on this pond, using rudimentary models to test his theory. He believes that by redirecting air or water flow, his globe can decrease resistance, significantly speed up moving objects and save energy. To demonstrate, he releases a balloon fit with a special plug that controls the outrush of air. The balloon moves fast as it deflates, but Prof. Sun has his doubts about Mr. Ma's theory. "It could be a little exaggeration that the globe's speed could exceed that of a rocket," the professor says. Fountain of Youth? Perhaps the boldest dream belongs to Liu Zhongkai, 47, an official at the Beijing Meteorological Bureau with wild eyes and vertical hair. Patent authorities are weighing whether or not to register his invention, which he describes as a magnetic field that produces as much as a third more energy than it requires to run. Among other things, he claims, his magnetic field can alter time. "If you live to be 100 on Earth, in my UFO you will be able to live at least 100,000 years," he says. Tinkering with his contraption -- two steel bars with coils of copper wire at each end -- Mr. Liu says his self-generating energy machine "is what UFOs must use to fly long distances because they can't use gas. It's a simple logic thing." Which, of course, begs the question: How do these scientists know what makes a UFO run, since none claims to have ever been inside one? "I've studied many photographs of UFOs," Mr. Ma says with a shrug. "In physics, you can work backward to figure out the theory." That isn't to say the quest isn't tough. Says Mr. Sun: "Working with UFOs is more complicated than translating for Mao." [W 5]****** Source: The Associated Press Date: 19th November 1997 From: baylissl@gwent-tertiary.ac.uk NASA's Deep Space 1 spacecraft to study Mars By JANE E. ALLEN PASADENA, Calif. (AP) - Slowly accelerating through space with a solar-powered engine, NASA's $141 million Deep Space 1 spacecraft will test a dozen new technologies for future missions. DS1, the first in NASA's New Millennium series, is set for launch next July on a two-year mission. The 5-foot-high workhorse will cruise past an asteroid, Mars and a comet, doing scientific work with several compact, lightweight and highly efficient new instruments. Seven members of the science team held a briefing Tuesday to discuss the spacecraft's advanced technologies, including a solar electric propulsion system. In January 1999, the spacecraft will pass within 5 miles of an asteroid named for Christa McAuliffe, the New Hampshire teacher killed by the explosion of the space shuttle Challenger. It will snap pictures, analyze the asteroid's surface composition and brightness, and monitor effects of the solar wind. In April 2000, DS1 will pass by Mars, conducting tests while it uses the planet for a gravity assist manoeuvre to fling it on a path toward the comet West-Kohoutek-Ikemura. Once it catches up with the comet, it will study its solid nucleus and surrounding cloud of gas and dust. The mission also offers ``a long-overdue opportunity to flight-test ion propulsion,'' said Joseph Wang, who runs the propulsion group at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena. An array of 720 lenses will focus sunlight on solar panels to produce electricity to power the ion propulsion engine. Inside the engine, atoms of xenon gas are given positive charges, then exposed to a negative electrical field that attracts and shoots them out the back of the spacecraft. The result is a gradual build up of speed over many months. The propulsion method is 10 times more efficient than burning fuel, ``but the thrust is extremely gentle,'' said Marc D. Rayman, the project's chief mission engineer at JPL. He compared the engine's thrust to the weight of a piece of paper in your hand. [W 6]****** Source: Deseret News Archives, Salt Lake City Publish Date: 14th November 1997 From: baylissl@gwent-tertiary.ac.uk UFO enthusiast in N.Y. found unfit to stand trial John Ford, a UFO enthusiast accused of masterminding a plot to assassinate three political officials in Suffolk County, was found unfit to stand trial on Thursday. A judge ordered that he be sent to an upstate psychiatric institution for at least a year. Ford, 48, was arrested a year ago on charges that he was scheming to kill the three officials by putting radium in their cars and lacing their toothpaste with radioactive metal. Investigators said Ford wanted the three officials killed because he believed they were interfering with his efforts to contact aliens from outer space. Ford's friends said he believed that visitors from outer space had crash-landed on Long Island and that government officials were keeping the aliens at Brookhaven National Laboratory in Upton and had created diversionary fires in Long Island's Pine Barrens to conceal the crash landings. uk.ufo.nw says: You can find the full reports and articles regarding the above John Ford case in our back-issues numbers{57} & {67}. Visit our web site at: http://www.holodeck.demon.co.uk/ Select the button: FTP Back-Issues -[continued in part 2]-
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Re: UFO UpDate: ACC Press release..... But To From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:44:32 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:18:41 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: ACC Press release..... But To >Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 09:32:01 -0800 >From: Dan Geib <geibdan@qtm.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: ACC Press release ... But TO WHOM ? >The recent hoopla over the ACC press release leaves me wondering, >Who do they release it too ? I recently read a Reuters article about >a nanotransistor but nothing about alien technology. >So they have created a press release. But if it never goes to the >press, then of what value is it ? Anyone can create a press release. >Curious for answers >Dan Dan, That is a good question. It almost seems as if ACC suffers from the same strange habit that has always plagued the UFO community: do an enormous amount of research, establish beyond a reasonable doubt that something very strange happened somewhere, and them inform nobody except the rest of the UFO community. However, Ed Wang recently revealed that securities broker Merril Lynch has urged ACC to go public. There is a difference between posting a press release on a website and really going public, which means sending the press release to all mainstream media, as ACC should do, in my opinion. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Alfred's Odd Ode #204 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:17:45 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:19:12 -0500 Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #204 Apology to MW #204 (For December 13, 1997) Say what you want about *crazy* John Ford. Say that he's addled and daffy. Say that he's gone off the deep end, of course. Say that his brains are like taffy. Say he's a mental case, say he's a dope -- say that he's outside his reasonable scope. Say that he's loony -- all gooney -toony, not deserving your concern, and unworthy of your note. =85Compelled to serial murder? He's a bumbling Manson clone? He's eating funny mushrooms -- spends his off time getting stoned? He's a frothing, raving nut case, surely better behind bars? I really think it's rather that his mind was on the stars. He started asking questions that would likely bode us well, got mad when he was stonewalled, got strident, then, as hell <g>! He got right up some noses -- again and, then, again, to the point some felt his boot heels on their slick and smarmy chins. He made some calls, and he raked some muck, he wrote some dangerous letters. He only did what I'd do with the courage of my betters=85 Consider the details, and the facts of his case! The plot is bizarre, and goes off in your face! It reads like a movie done cheap -- on the fly. It can't hold together -- this pie in the sky! Radium toothpaste's beyond my belief, and "outside in his pickup" is less than concrete! An informant inside leads the talk by the nose=85 -- is there more to this story, do you think or suppose? Lehmberg@snowhill.com My last sentence fragment drips with the most cloying and derisive sarcasm! We should ALL be asking questions about this! John Ford was functioning well within the law in an ethical pursuit allegedly guaranteed by our *constitution*. Here's hoping YOU never feel compelled to speak up about something YOU feel is important, but inconvenient for the man. If so, YOU are next! Be afraid! Then get mad. Turn the heat up, slow, on a frog, and it will sit complacently in its pot of water until it cooks. Feel the heat coming up, little froggies? ~~~ "There is plenty of reason to think the Suffolk Police were 'out to get' John Ford. And no member of the UFO community can be confident they understand the arrest of John Ford if their only source of information is the sensational media reports orchestrated by the Suffolk DA. That is why John's colleagues, including myself in Washington, DC, LIUFON vice president Steve Iavarone, and Tony West, Richard Jones, Preston Nichols, and Joe Zuppardo in New York, Don Jernigan of Ohio, and Kelly Freeman of Florida, have organized the John Ford Defense Committee. Our purpose is (1) to give people true information on the arrest of John Ford, and (2) collect funds and other resources essential for John's defense." -- Elaine M. Douglass (elaine26@juno.com). The Committee needs funds for John's legal defense and donations of several kinds: a psychiatrist expert witness; professional audiotape analysis; and a Long Island-based legal investigator. Please also write personal letters to: John Ford (8-29-48), Suffolk County Jail, 100 Center Dr, Riverhead NY 11901. -- Explore the Alien View? http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/ "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake. They're building John's pyre now!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 13 Mantle's 'Article' [was: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25)] From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Schatte] Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:50:11 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:37:10 -0500 Subject: Mantle's 'Article' [was: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25)] >From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> >Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:22:17 -0500 >Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:38:50 -0500 >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Speaking of which, I note the Paragon web site, originally used > to sell the "raw" footage, is now selling "Beyond Roswell" and > contains a lengthy article by yourself which seems to be a > blatant plagiarism, perhaps of course with permission, of > Hesemann's 'Nexus' article. Wonder if this is the same "article" the MUFON Journal published in the December issue? I hope not. Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 14 Re: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:42:40 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 07:56:27 -0500 Subject: Re: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' Regarding... >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] >Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:46:53 PST >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' Jerry wrote: >>Did Arnold ever repeat or expand on this reported claim? >Not only did Arnold not repeat or expand on this claim, he never made >it in the first place. Jerry, If I had seen Wilkins' claim before, I had long forgotten it and have never seen any such reference elsewhere. I thought it was unlikely, hence my query if Arnold had ever repeated it. As I'm sure you realise, Wilkins book has its moments, but also has its problems and I'm grateful this has been clarified. Did Arnold offer any insight about the sketch showing a crescent-shaped object with a tail? In what I trust is an accurate quote, Wilkins mentions that Arnold commented, "the peculiar object drawn by Brown had a length one-fourth that of its width, and seemed bat-like in the tips of its wings". It would seem to confirm the drawing originated from Lieutenant Brown. What then was this case featuring a quite distinctive object which Arnold apparently claims he also saw and how does it compare overall with Arnold's report? James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 14 IUFO: Abductions: The Boundary Deficit Hypothesis From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:08:31 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:08:31 -0500 Subject: IUFO: Abductions: The Boundary Deficit Hypothesis [Thanks Francisco!] From: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/media/mailing/archive/iufo/msg02696.shtml IUFO Mailing List ::: Abductions: The Boundary Deficit Hypothesis ::: From: density4@cts.com (Blue Resonant Human) Subject: IUFO: ::: Abductions: The Boundary Deficit Hypothesis ::: Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:15:22 GMT -> SearchNet's IUFO Mailing List Abductions: The Boundary Deficit Hypothesis 1988 by Martin Kottmeyer As claims about the reality of alien abductions multiply, the assertion is increasingly heard that psychology offers little or no insight into how such experiences could occur if they are unreal. Abductees are normal people. Tests prove it. How, then, could normal people make such impossible claims as those found in abduction narratives and not be right? If this assertion is true, the theatre version of the UFO phenomenon is in jeopardy. To the extent that the UFO phenomenon is a genre of theatre and an expression of the human imagination, it must be amenable to psychological study. Clearly this is a paradox that needs to be addressed. Drama is quintessentially involved with conflict, the exercise of power. Aliens and their magical technology represent an elementary extreme in the spectrum of power relationships seen in theatre. The vitality of the UFO mythos lies precisely in its ability to provoke fear and desire over the power symbolised in the role of the alien. Studies of UFO belief repeatedly implicate the frustration of the will to power. (1) The clearest evidence for this fact is Stephen P. Resta's study which found strength of UFO belief is well correlated with externality, a generalised attitude that one has little control over one's life. (2) The significant correlation between UFO belief and belief in witches, necromancy, and ghosts doubtless derives from this general sense of powerlessness. (3) Witchcraft in some form is found in all societies and practised most avidly by those lacking, but desiring, power. A subtle sociological datum worth noting is Donald Warren's Gallup poll analysis which found elevated levels of UFO belief among individuals who failed to achieve the economic level of status that their education would lead society to expect. (4) UFO reports themselves give ample testimony to the predominance of powerlessness as a shaping factor of UFO experiences. The dominant emotion in reports is fear. If UFOs represent a symbol of wholeness, as Jungians claim, this is assuredly a counter- intuitive finding. We should see serenity and fulfilment. UFOs, in the great majority of cases, behave like agents of chaos. Vehicles lose power. Witnesses are paralysed. Life is disrupted. Entropy reigns. Abduction is so natural an extension of the core of UFO belief, the mystery is not that it appeared, but why it took so long as it did to be accepted. Even a person totally naive in psychological analysis should be able to satisfy himself that the overarching theme of abduction narratives is powerlessness. This is manifest not in the mere sense of capture and involuntary scrutiny, but in the extra- ordinary variety of dramatic intrusions imposed on the abductee. Among the accounts in the literature one will find pain inflicted in many different parts of the body including the head, the neck, the chest, the stomach, the back, and the navel. Needles, absurdly big at times, are used to penetrate a variety of points including the nose, the arm, the navel, an eye socket with the eye removed, and wires have been inserted into one man's penis and anus. Organs have been removed and replaced. Sometimes the body is completely ripped apart and put back together. One abductee had her eye scraped with a knife. Some people have their limbs pulled sharply, their hair pulled, even their head pulled and squeezed by aliens. Abductees are subjected to rape, castration, impregnation, abortion, choking, drowning, freezing, bleeding profusely, temporary blinding, hand cramps, being stripped, having their brains scrambled, and being confronted with their personal phobia. Abductees have also reported sensations of weakness, of hurtling or tumbling through space, of spinning, of being stuck, of being buried alive, and, once, of crashing to the ground with a saucer. Though there is no reason to be discerned in such a pattern, there is clearly a rhyme with the theme being unfolded. It should be no surprise that intense expressions of powerlessness are not unique to ET settings. Fictive past-life regressions are commonly quite dramatic. (5) In some individuals daytime stream- of-consciousness fantasies can take on embarrassingly vivid facets that provoke fear. (6) Alvin Lawson precedes me in noting the striking correspondence between bad LSD trips and abduction experiences in terms not only of emotive engagement, but of bizarre somatic threats such as umbilical pain being a common narrative sub-plot. Far and away the most useful observation, however, is that nightmares provide the ideal model to map abduction experiences. Nightmares overwhelmingly involve powerlessness. They commonly reflect certain basic fears of childhood: fear of completely dissolving or being destroyed; fear of mutilation, castration, loss of body parts; fear of isolation and abandonment; fear of loss of sustenance and love; and an inability to control the body. They are intensely rendered dramas which utilise numerous motifs familiar among abduction stories: chase, capture, torture, imminent catastrophe, wild kinetic sensations, and eerie back- ground scenes. Regarding the last, it is especially damning how fog frequently finds its way into abduction tales, this being a form of artistic license utilised in dozens of SF movies and programmes and possessing a lineage stretching back to Lovecraft and probably beyond. The phenomenon of an introductory eerie silence just prior to encountering aliens, a commonplace noted by Raymond Fowler, similarly has a lineage that dates back at least to H.G. Wells and "The War of the Worlds". As Colin Greenland might say, everyone subconsciously recognises such things as an Indication of Monsters. (7) It follows that the abductionologists' appreciation of the "emotional authenticity" and validity of abductee writings should not lead us to leap to the conclusion that such accounts are materially authentic and valid. The unconscious can and does invest fictions with expressions of passion. It seems logical at this point to ask if the psychology of nightmares can throw any light on what is happening in alien abduction experiences. While not all the puzzles of nightmares have been solved, psychology has recently made significant strides in understanding why some people develop them and others do not. In building a profile of nightmare sufferers Ernest Hartmann developed a conceptual model termed boundary theory which expands on a set of propositions about boundaries in the mind formulated by a handful of earlier psychoanalytic theorists. It is from Hartmann's study "The Nightmare" that we will develop the blueprint of our argument. (8) Boundary theory begins with the axiom that as the mind matures, it categorises experiences. It walls off certain sets to be distinct from other sets. Boundaries become set up between what is self and what is non-self, between sleep and waking experiences, between fantasy and reality, passion and reason, ego and id, masculine and feminine, and a large host of other experiential categories. This drive to categorise is subject to natural variation. The determinants of the strength of that drive appear to be biochemical and genetic and probably have no environmental component such as trauma. When the drive is weak the boundaries between categories are thinner, more permeable or more fluid. When the boundaries become abnormally thin one sees psychopathologies like schizophrenia. Hartmann discovered individuals who suffer from nightmares have thin boundaries. From this central mental characteristic one can derive a large constellation of traits that set these people apart from the general population. From earliest childhood, people with thin boundaries are perceived as "different". They are regarded as more sensitive than their peers. Thin character armour causes them to be more fragile and easily hurt. They are easily empathic, but dive into relationships too deeply too quickly. Recipients of their affection will regard them as uncomfortably close and clinging and they are thus frequently rejected. Experience with their vulnerability teaches them to be wary of entering into relationships with others. Adolescence tends to be stormy and difficult. Adult relationships -- whether sexual, marital or friendships -- also tend to be unsettled and variable. A slight tendency to paranoia is common. One-third will have contemplated or attempted suicide. Experimentation with drugs tends to yield bad trips and is quickly abandoned. They are usually alert to lights, sounds and sensations. They tend to have fluid sexual identities. Bisexuals are over-represented in the nightmare sufferers' population and it is rare to find manly men or womanly women in it. Macho pigs apparently do not have nightmares. They are not rule followers. Either they reject society or society rejects them. They are rebels and outsiders. There is a striking tendency for these people to find their way into fields involving artistic self-expression; musicians, poets, writers, art teachers, etc. Some develop their empathic tendencies and become therapists. Ordinary BLUE or white collar jobs are rare. Hartmann believes the predominance of artists results from the fact that thin boundaries allow them to experience the world more directly and painfully than others. The ability to experience their inner life in a very direct fashion contributes to the authenticity of their creations. They become lost in daydreaming quite easily and even experience daymares -- a phenomenon people with thick boundaries won't even realise exists. This trait of imaginative absorption should also make nightmare sufferers good hypnotic subjects. (9) Boundary deficits also contribute to fluid memories and a fluid time sense. To be considered a candidate for the hypothesis that one is a victim of alien abduction a person must present certain symptoms. Among the factors which are looked for are conscious memories of an abduction, revealing nightmares, missing time, forgotten scars, or dramatic reactions to seemingly trivial stimuli like distant nocturnal lights. The last four factors act as screening devices to yield a population of boundary deficit individuals. This is blatant in the case of people whose candidacy is based on nightmares of aliens. It is subtler in the other symptoms. People who have thin boundaries in their time sense virtually by definition will experience episodes of missing time. People with fluid memories could easily lose track of the event that led to the creation of a scar. People with weak ego-id boundaries and a sense of powerlessness probably would over- react to distant inexplicable lights as symbols of power. These candidates, in turn, are subject to further screening by their performance under hypnosis. The thicker the boundary, the less likely it is that a convincing narrative will emerge or be accepted as emotionally valid. We would predict the final population of abduction claimants would be biased in favour of a high proportion of boundary-deficit personalities. The evidence that abductees have boundary-deficit personalities is, if not definitive, reasonably convincing. The points of correspondence between abductees and nightmare sufferers are several and consistent. Ufology regards the Slater psychological study of nine abductees as an experimentum crucis for the view that abductees are victims of real extraterrestrial intrusions. It affirmed not only the normality of abductees, but offered a hint of traumatisation in the finding that abductees showed a tendency to display distrust and interpersonal caution. It is time to remind everyone, however, of what Slater's full results were reported to be. Slater found abductees had rich inner lives; a relatively weak sense of identity, particularly a weak sexual identity; vulnerability; and an alertness characteristic of both perceptual sophistication and interpersonal caution. (10) All four of these traits are characteristic of boundary-deficit minds. Clearly the abduction-reality hypothesis is, in this instance, unparsimonious. It fails to explain the presence of rich inner lives, weak identities and vulnerability. (I reject Slater's post hoc attempt to account for the weak sexual identity via childhood trauma induced by involuntary surgical penetrations as undocumented, and just plain weird.) It should not be over- looked that Slater volunteered the opinion that her test subjects did not represent an ordinary cross-section of the population. She found some were "downright eccentric or odd" and that the group as a whole was "very distinctive, unusual, and interesting". (11) This nicely parallels Hartmann's observation that boundary- deficit personalities are perceived as "different" from "normal" people. Slater's study does indeed seem to be an experimentum crucis, but the conclusion it points toward is perfectly opposite from what ufologists have been assuming. The boundary-deficit hypothesis evidently can also be invoked to explain the unusual proportion of artist-type individuals that I discovered in testing Rimmer's hypothesis. Roughly one-third of abductees showed evidence of artistic self-expression in their backgrounds in my sample population, as you may recall. Hartmann's study would also lead us to expect an unusual number of psychotherapists among abductees. In a recent paper, Budd Hopkins reported that in a population of 180 probable abductees he found many mental health professionals: two psychiatrists, three PhD psychologists and an unstated number of psychotherapists with Master's degrees. (12) It would obviously be child's play to pick and choose isolated bits of confirming or discordant biographical information from the abductee literature and argue about the fit of Hartmann's boundary-deficit profile to various individual cases. It would be a pleasant diversion, but would ultimately not prove much one way or the other given the scanty nature of background information in almost all abduction narratives. I exempt Whitley Strieber's autobiography from dismissal, however, for it is both detailed and highly revealing. Strieber's experiences resound with emotions of powerlessness. He speaks eloquently of the despair, extreme dread, crazed terror and panic inspired by his experience. The incident with the faecal probe is recognisably a pseudo-homosexual rape fantasy of the form discussed in Ovesey's studies. (13) As the emotions prove, the incident has nothing to do with eroticism but everything to do with the expression of powerlessness. Psychiatrists would predict that Strieber was repressing resentment and hostility from having to be subordinate in an undesired social relationship. The incident with the mind wand -- "You'll ruin a beautiful mind" -- is more interesting since it reflects the childhood fear of the dissolution of self. This was very much on Strieber's mind at the time. We can see it in his story "Pain" where his narrator dreams of friendly tormentors with a high-powered rifle who he asks to hug him. The core of the narrator's identity ebbs away and he suffers through the torture of the tearing down of his personality. (14) Strieber's picture-drama of the world blowing up with horns of smoke streaking out from it similarly bespeaks the fear of dissolution, since world destructions commonly precede the onset of psychosis as the mind projects the internal catastrophe into the world at large. (15) The evidence for thin boundaries in Strieber's personality is highly convincing. Strieber's curious assessment that he is "80% convinced" of the reality of his experiences immediately impresses one that his demarcation between reality and fantasy is rather fluid. Strieber's memory is disturbingly fluid as revealed in his willingness to accept another person's word that he wasn't present at the historic bell-tower sniper incident at the University of Texas -- an event he elsewhere discusses in gruesome detail. (16) The manner in which he strips away his memory of past anomalies and tosses them out as screen memory fictions covering alien encounters has an almost ghoulish self- mutilation quality like making his identity self-destruct before our eyes. Strieber is an outsider. This is less indicated by his questioning of Catholic faith than by his seeking spiritual values in witchcraft, mysticism and Gurdjieff. Strieber's wife volunteered the opinion that her husband has "a very unique head" and is openly distressed over the vulnerability he manifests at one point. Strieber confessed he contemplated suicide before contacting Budd Hopkins about his fears. Paranoid mentation is clearly evident in his book and has at times led to bizarre speculations. In a radio interview with Tom Snyder, Strieber wondered aloud if a gagster who was selling alien abduction insurance wasn't a dishonest dupe of Cosmic Watergate because ridicule was a known MO of the UFO cover-up. (17) Strieber's encounters with critics consistently show projective hostility and a thin character armour, probably best shown in his pre- emptive strike to Thomas Disch when he found he would be reviewing his book "Communion" for The Nation. Strieber's success as a writer of horror fiction lastly clinches the argument that he is a boundary-deficit personality. It is interesting to note, parenthetically, that Strieber also manifests a constellation of traits that object-relations theory explains as resulting from traumas early in childhood when the child is first developing the character armour during the phase of separation and individuation. Prominent among these traits are threats of inner fragmentation like those cited above; primitive emotional defences including paranoia and, most primitive of all, splitting; archaic narcissistic formations involving grandiosity; inability to integrate the hostile and living aspects of parental introjects; and a tendency to project hostility. A couple of reviewers of "Communion" were quite confused as to how Strieber failed to be repelled by the prospect of communion with aliens who threatened his beautiful mind and caused such body terror as he described. The answer is found in the trait of splitting which allows the individual to hold contradictory emotional stances and not see the contradiction. Strieber never developed the higher forms of emotional defence found in those with thicker boundaries in adulthood. If Strieber has indeed suffered separation trauma as a child, it is apparent that is why communion is such a central concern to him. He never resolved the problem of separating his self from his parental object relations. The upshot of all these observations is that Strieber's alien experiences form a unity with the issues of his unconscious. I am 0% convinced of the objective reality of his abduction. (18) In addition to forming a coherent assembly of the known facts about the psychology of abductees, the boundary-deficit hypothesis is richly testable. Hartmann's profile offers numerous predictions about the inner world of abductees. Those listed above are just a fraction of the possibilities. If you want to know if missing time derives from a fluid time sense or a fluid memory, you can test people who report this for concomitant phenomena: frequent episodes of deja vu or jamais vu, primal repression dated to two or three years of age as opposed to four or five, days organised according to flexible rather than rigid schedules, future plans lacking specific time frames, and a tendency to not answer questions in a temporally structured pattern. The core claim about a low categorisation drive can be tested by cognitive tests like those cited in a book by Theodore Sarbin. (19) The boundary-deficit proposition has in it the implicit resolution of the paradox of how people without significant psychopathology can entertain the belief that they are victims of alien abduction. The abduction myth has opportunistic features wherein boundary-deficit traits act to justify id material crossing ego boundaries being considered real. Whether the crossing is prompted by leaky sleep/wake boundaries (as in " Communion"'s hypnopompic nightmares) or by the opening of the boundary for role-taking behaviour, the narrative material is no more evidence of pathology than an LSD trip is proof that LSD is a toxin, (20) or a symphony arising from a composer's unconscious can be called a product of psychosis. Belief in the reality of the material need not evoke thin reality/fantasy boundaries, since a logic is present within the received myth which requires a trusting, or rather distrusting, demeanour for its acceptance. If you have a forgotten scar and a ufologist unleashes a creative id to pull together a dramatic nightmare, is it illogical to wonder if the myth is right and the nightmare explains the scar? In the context of a belief in furtive extraterrestrials, it is not. As developmental psychologists well understand, unconformative behaviour and absurd beliefs often owe more to pathological contexts than organic dysfunction. If there is any pathology to abduction belief it is within the science of ufology itself -- a point I explore elsewhere. (21) Normal people will necessarily not waste their time or the money needed to develop a thoroughgoing scientific judgement on all the facts and systems of belief they are exposed to in life. Since it has been a relatively harmless and a glorious entertainment (in Jacques Barzun's sense of science as a glorious entertainment) the concept of UFOs survives to haunt the imaginations of millions and attract the attention of individuals who have been the victims of life's conflicts. From the alchemy of ideas and passions transformed by the human unconscious emerges the fertile and labyrinthine myth and mystery of the UFO drama. Notes: 1. For the best treatment of the will to power concept I recommend Kaufmann, Walter; "Discovering the Mind", Vol. 2, McGraw Hill, 1980 2. Resta, Stephen P.; "The relationship of anomie and externality to the strength of belief in unidentified flying objects", dissertation, Loyola College Graduate School, Baltimore, Maryland, 30 October 1975. Resta failed to find a significant correlation between anomie and UFO belief. This could be consistent with a paranoid orientation. Paranoia acts as a defence against depression and meaninglessness. 3. Zusne, Leonard and Jones, Warren H.; "Anomalistic Psychology", Lawrence Erlbaum, 1982, 184-185 4. Warren, Donald I.; "Status inconsistency theory and flying saucer sightings", Science, 170 (6 November 1970), 137 5. Watson, Ian; "All in the Mind", Doubleday, 1984, 137 6. Caughey, John L.; "Fantasy worlds and self-maintenance in contemporary American life", Zygon, 23, No. 2 (June 1988), 138, n. 3 7. Greenland, Colin; "An indication of monsters"; in Slusser, George E. and Rabkin, Eric S.; "Aliens: The Anthropology of Science Fiction", Southern Illinois University, 1987, 208-217 8. Hartmann, Ernest; "The Nightmare: The Psychology and Biology of Terrifying Dreams", Basic Books, 1984 9. Sarbin, Theodore R. and Coe, William, C.; "Hypnosis: A Social Psychological Analysis of Influence Communication", Holt, Rinehart, Winston, 1972 10. "Abductees are "normal" people", International UFO Reporter, 9, No. 4 (July/August 1984), 10-12 11. Bloecher, Ted; Clamar, Aphrodite; and Hopkins, Budd; "Final Report on the Psychological testing of UFO Abductees", Fund for UFO Research, 1985 12. Hopkins, Budd; "UFO Abductions - the Skeleton Key", "MUFON 1988 International UFO Symposium Proceedings", 105 13. Karlen, Arno; "Sexuality and Homosexuality: A New View", W.W. Norton, 1971 14. Etchison, Dennis; "Cutting Edge", Doubleday, 1986, 279-280 15. Eidelberg, Ludwig; "Encyclopedia of Psychoanalysis", Free Press, 1968, 351 16. Strieber, Whitley; "On the road (with visitors)", International UFO Reporter, January/February 1987, 9. Winter, Douglas; "Faces of Fear", Berkeley Books, 1985, 192-206 17. Tom Snyder interview with Whitley Strieber, WIS Radio, Chicago, 2 March 1988 18. Meissner, W.W.; "Narcissistic personalities and borderline conditions: a differential diagnosis"; in Morrison, Andrew P. (ed.); "Essential Papers on Narcissism", New York University Press, 1966, 403-437. Rinsley, Donald B.; "Borderline and Self Disorders: A Developmental and Object relations Perspective", Jason Aronson, 1982 19. Sarbin, Theodore and Mancuso, James C.; "Schizophrenia: Medical Diagnosis or Moral Verdict?", Pergamon, 1980, 203-206 20. LSD acts specifically on the dissolution of mental boundaries. Stanislav Grof's studies of LSD experiences reveal systematic correspondence to Hartmann's profile of boundary- deficit experience. Hartmann even reports that some of the nightmare sufferers volunteer the observation that they don't need LSD because their lives are always like a trip! Most criticism of Lawson's birth trauma study I have heard fails to display any recognition of his primary discovery, namely that Grof's "Realms of the Human Unconscious" provides the blueprint to the emotional subtext of UFO experiences. To me, the concern over foetal self-imagery being the origin of the humanoid image is a side issue and a distraction. Reading Grof for oneself after being immersed in a series of abduction reports gives one a much better appreciation of Lawson's excitement. It clicks. 21. "Ufology considered as an evolving system of paranoia", Artifex, forthcoming From Magonia, 32, March 1988. http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/magarc.htm -> Send "subscribe iufo " to majordomo@world.std.com -> Posted by: density4@cts.com (Blue Resonant Human) Next Message | Previous Message | List Surrounding Messages This archive of mailing list messages is provided as a free public courtesy. I t is maintained automatically. The webmaster has no control over content, does not review these messages and accepts no liability for the accuracy of information contai ned herein. Responsibility for this material rests solely with the author and mail ing list moderator (if any). Note: This is a temporary archive only; this message will be deleted eventuall y. See main page for more info. Mailing lists archived on this server * *** ***** ******* ********* This site is supported by the Research Center Bookstore. Please visit our catalog if you appreciate our free web services. Created: Sat Dec 13 01:22:31 EST 1997
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 14 Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:12:39 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:14:47 -0500 Subject: Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? >Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:44:32 +0100 (MET) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? <snip> >That is a good question. It almost seems as if ACC suffers from >the same strange habit that has always plagued the UFO community: >do an enormous amount of research, establish beyond a reasonable >doubt that something very strange happened somewhere, and them >inform nobody except the rest of the UFO community. Do an enormous amount of research...establish beyond a reasonable doubt...since when? The only strange habit ACC or anyone else suffers from here is the pompous propensity and proclivity for making absurd assumptions and statements for which no validating documentation or proof of evidence for same is ever submitted whatsoever. And you and your ilk and the like want to give them the benefit of the doubt? Excuse me. >However, Ed Wang recently revealed that securities broker Merril >Lynch has urged ACC to go public. There is a difference between >posting a press release on a website and really going public, >which means sending the press release to all mainstream media, as >ACC should do, in my opinion. In my opinion, too. In the meantime, can you spell publicity ploy to sell computers? I didn't think so. Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 14 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:12:40 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:24:15 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] >Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 02:09:35 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:30:35 -0500 >Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:28:51 -0500 >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso ><snip> >>> I won't make Birnes a scapegoat, Corso's name is on that book >>> too. >> Corso is of course going to held responsible for the contents of >> the book. That, however, does not translate to his having full >> knowledge of its contents prior to publication. >Then that is his problem -- not ufology's. >Rebecca <Giant snip> Pleez, everyone: Corso is crap. I interviewed his co-author, William Birnes, for Omni Online on Sept 2, 1997, a portion of which was recently republished in the December MUFON UFO Journal, pp. 6-7. Here is a relevant exchange: Stacy: "As you're no doubt aware, Corso's version of Roswell differs from what has been previously published. For example, he has Jesse Marcel at a crash site where bodies were recovered, something Marcel never mentioned, despite the numerous times he was interviewed." Birnes: "The book's version of Roswell is simply a compilation of Roswell stories as a background to what happened later. In fact, it was added at the very end because the publisher believed that not enough readers were familiar with the basic story. So I imagine there are hundreds of disagreements between the story in the first chapter and other versions of the story. But [it] is meant to be only the most general of introductions." In short, there you have it, straight from the horse's mouth. The Roswell scenario as portrayed in 'The Day After Roswell' is a fictional concoction from start to finish -- added at the publisher's request, and presumably supplied by Birnes. (If Corso was really privy to official government files, as he claims, then he would have been able to set the so-called record straight instead of confusing it further.) But even this statement is disingenuous in the extreme. How could the publisher have accepted a title with Roswell in its name to begin with, only to ask for a "clarification" of Roswell at the last moment? The short answer is that they couldn't have and wouldn't have, had they bothered to conduct any research of their own. In brief, Corso and Birnes have sold you a bill of goods -- for whatever reason(s). If you want to buy into it, fine, it's your money. But don't blame me or Rebecca when the check bounces. Dennis Search for other documents from or mentioning: dstacy | xiannekei |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 14 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: galevy@pipeline.com [Gary Alevy] Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:26:23 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:43:24 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:56:35 -0500 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> > Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] > >Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 02:09:35 EST > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> > >Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:30:35 -0500 > >Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:28:51 -0500 > >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso <Big snip> > I have no argument with that, but I'm not sure how you're going > to develop a common consensus on what will constitute "proof", > and some will always be willing to accept the claims of others. > I'm not even sure we could come up with a good consensus on how > we define the "field" of "Ufology". > Steve Capt. Edward J. Ruppelt stated in his book "The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects" that proof would be a saucer landing at the River entrance of the Pentagon. Note he did not consider a landing on the White House lawn would constitute proof, nor would many others. Gary Search for other documents from or mentioning: galevy | steve |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 14 Chat with Author Jim Marrs From: "Yvonne Hedenland" <VONNI_H@classic.msn.com> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 97 03:40:54 UT Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:48:41 -0500 Subject: Chat with Author Jim Marrs Join MSN UFO Forum and special Guest Jim Marrs, author of ALIEN AGENDA, on Tuesday, December 16th, 6pm, PT. According to Jim Marrs, the documented interest in UFOs supports the confident statement that UFOs represent a real phenomenon. This chat is available at http://forums.msn.com/UFO The Briefing Room chat can be accessed by any IRC client. The chat server name is publicchat.msn.com and the room or channel name is #briefing.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 14 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:47:49 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:52:15 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:44:48 +0100 (MET) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso <snip> >Rebecca, >You got to stop making excuses for not doing your own research. >If you want to know more about this case, what stops you from >calling Corso? Or do you expect Corso to call you? >Hell, the man does not even know you exist. >Henny van der Pluijm Henny: Hell, he probably doesn't know you exist, either, except as some other sucker willing to shell out 25 dollars for his book. My, aren't you the clever one! Do you seriously think that were Rebecca to actually make voice contct with Corso that he would give her any more staightforward answers than he has given the rest of us? Do you think he would give her evidence that he somehow accidentally omitted from the originl book? In short, don't you know when you're being had? We've already heard from Corso. And that's the point. He discredits himself. We don't need to hear from him again. Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 14 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:56:35 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:57:49 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:44:48 +0100 (MET) >Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:15:12 -0500 >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > You got to stop making excuses for not doing your own research. > If you want to know more about this case, what stops you from > calling Corso? Or do you expect Corso to call you? > Hell, the man does not even know you exist. I have no interest in calling Col. Corso. From my perspective, it looks as if he called me -- and all us. He co-authored a book with Willima Birnes. He offered not one shred of proof for his claims in said book. Why would I need to call him? He made the claim and it's up to him to offer the proof. Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 14 Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates] Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:09:21 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:01:49 -0500 Subject: Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? > Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 09:32:01 -0800 > From: Dan Geib <geibdan@qtm.net> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: ACC Press release ... But TO WHOM ? > The recent hoopla over the ACC press release leaves me wondering, > Who do they release it too ? I recently read a Reuters article about > a nanotransistor but nothing about alien technology. > So they have created a press release. But if it never goes to the > press, then of what value is it ? Anyone can create a press release. > Curious for answers > Dan > UFO Folklore at > http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/framemst.html Something else to consider, having seen this first hand myself. The major/minor media gets 100s if not thousands of press releases every day on about every issue. Most press releases are viewed as self serving propaganda pieces and are generally thrown away. In one large newspaper office I was told "We don't print 95 percent of the news stories we receive." Apparently because at any given point on the wire services their is 5-10 thousand stories posted a day from around the world, not to mention local stories. From all this the editor(s) have to select about 20-50 stories to run with. Had ACC unloaded this release around the middle June to middle July 1997 it might have got some coverage, ala a 10 second sound bite as part of the bigger Roswell coverage, or a 1 or 2 sentence mention as part of a newspaper's Roswell commeration coverage. Now the media will be focused on campaign fund raising 1-10, the Republicans and their differences with Janet Reno etc etc. Thats just the way the media cookie crumbles. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 14 The Martians Are Coming..... From: SKvs <bradford@globalserve.net> [Sue Kovios] Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:32:49 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:24:36 -0500 Subject: The Martians Are Coming..... A Martian couple and an Earthling couple meet and are talking about all sorts of things. Finally, the subject of sex comes up. "Just how do you guys do it?" asks the Earthling. "Pretty much the way you do." responds the Martian. Discussion ensues and finally the couples decide to swap partners for the night and experience one another. The female Earthling and the male Martian go off to a bedroom where the Martian strips. He's got only a teenie, weenie member, about half an inch long and just a quarter inch thick. "I don't think this is going to work" says the woman. "Why?" he asks. "What's the matter?" "Well, it's just not long enough to reach me" she replies. "No problem" he says and proceeds to slap his forehead with his palm. With each slap of his forehead, his member grows until it's quite impressively long. "Well, that's quite impressive, but it's still pretty narrow" she says. "No problem" he says, and starts pulling his ears. With each pull his member grows wider and wider until the entire measurement is extremely exciting to the woman. "Wow!" she exclaims as they fall into bed and make mad, passionate love. The next day the couples rejoin their normal partners and go their separate ways. As they walk along, the Earth male asks "Well, was it any good?" "I hate to say it but it was pretty wonderful" she says. "How about you?" "It was okay" he replied. "But it was a little weird. The whole time she was slapping my forehead and pulling on my ears."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 14 Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 04:05:57 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:27:51 -0500 Subject: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > From: Rob Irving <RobIrving@aol.com> > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:49:01 EST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > > Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:11:48 -0500 > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> > > Subject: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Bob, > > Except for a contribution from Paul Fuller the material on > > the CD is all from Mike, Philip and me. I'm not in charge of > > this project, and I am sure that there is no way that Mike (and > > Perhaps Philip) would have let me include anything from Mr. > > Irving. > A rare compliment, but not deserved as much as say, James Easton, > who's excellent research I can see you, Mike, and Phil, also have > no intention of including. As self-conferred authorities you are > of course expected to embrace facts rather than demonstrate a > desperate fear of them. It is obvious from your uncomfortable > reaction that Theresa's findings are well worth attention from > the rest of us - that is, those of us who don't equate the word > "investigation" with "pious myopia". > Rob Dear Rob, The CD-ROM is more or less based on our book 'BEYOND ROSWELL' with a few exceptions here and there. We will be having a BEYOND ROSWELL web site where all information, pro & con will be utilised for all to see. As for being short sighted concerning Theresa Carlson's recent research the opposite is true. I have complimented Theresa on her work and I have forwared the relevant information to many different parties so that they can view it for themselves. I hold Theresa and her work in very high regard as I know that she, like myself and Bob, are only tring to get to the bottom of things despite what you and others might belive. Philip.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 14 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 48 From: Masinaigan <Masinaigan@aol.com> [Joseph Trainor] Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:13:28 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:35:53 -0500 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 48 UFO ROUNDUP Volume 2, Number 48 December 14, 1997 Editor: Joseph Trainor RED UFO SEEN HOVERING OVER RENO, NEVADA On Tuesday, December 9, 1997, at 5:15 p.m., a red UFO five times the size of a star appeared over the city of Reno, Nevada (population 133,850). One witness described the object as "a bright red strobing light." The UFO remained over the city for one hour, moving erratically across the sky, occasionally halting and hovering for several minutes at a time. The last reported sighting of the UFO was at 6:15 p.m. Local TV station KRNV Channel 4 videotaped the object and aired the video on its late evening broadcast. Radio station KKOH (780 AM) received "plenty of phone calls about the object." Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) ground crew at the Reno-Tahoe Municipal Airport off Greg Street reported that they did not spot the UFO on radar. However, several FAA workers reportedly observed the object with binoculars from the airport runway. The Reno Gazette-Journal checked with Desert Research Institute, which launches upper atmosphere research balloons, but the institute said the UFO was not a "runaway balloon" of theirs. A check of local helicopter companies revealed that no helicopters were aloft at the time. The Lake Tahoe Naval Air Station told the Gazette-Journal that they "had not seen the object and had no flights up at that time." Reno is located on Interstate Highway 80 in western Nevada, approximately 32 miles (51 kilometers) northwest of Carson City, the state capital. (See the Reno, Nev. Gazette-Journal for December 10, 1993, page B-2) PILOT DEBUNKS JERSEY UFO-JETLINER HOAX Airline pilot Bob Durant, a MUFON member who lives in New Jersey, says the recent report of an encounter November 17 between UFOs and two jetliners over Morristown, N.J. is most likely a hoax. The evening of November 17, a ham radio operator overheard a conversation on frequency 118.300 MHz, purportedly between the Newark Tower and a Flight 262. After looking into the matter on behalf of MUFON, Durant reported that the conversation "sounds like script written by someone who has seen the movies but never flew the planes." Durant cited several "procedurally incorrect" statements in the conversation as proof of his assertion. "For example, air traffic controllers never use the term 'Flight So-and-So,'" he said, "They always precede the flight number with the name of the airline, as in United 262 or Delta 1003 and so forth." Durant added that he was also suspicious "why this conversation could be taking place on 118.3, which is the Newark Tower frequency," pointing out that commercial aircraft are not handed over to the tower "until they are within five miles of the airport, typically descending through 1,500 feet." The presence of three "planes" on the frequency was also a gaffe. "Normally, there are only two airplanes on Tower frequency during landing approach, plus one which just landed." Durant pointed out that Morristown, N.J. is 20 miles (32 kilometers) west of Newark airport and not on "any approach path" to the airport. "Also, procedurally, the alleged Tower instruction, 'Flight 262, go to the emergency frequency. We will meet you there,' is all wrong." (Many thanks to George A. Filer and Bob Durant of MUFON for this report.) UFO PURSUES WOMAN'S CAR IN PUNTA ARENAS, CHILE On Wednesday, November 26, 1997, at 11:34 p.m., Pilar Olazabal was driving home with her friends, Juana Villalobos Moreno and Carlos Iturbide Masana, in Punta Arenas, the southernmost city in Chile, when the two women spied something strange in the road just ahead of them. "About 300 meters (1,000 yards) before reaching the house, in front of the car, was an oval shape that looked like it was on fire. It illuminated the road in front of them. The strangest part is that it was seen only by the two women and not by the man." The apparition lasted for several seconds. After they reached home, the trio talked about their encounter. Then Juana got in her car and drove back to her own apartment. Ten minutes later, "on one of the main streets of Punta Arenas, she saw a bright object behind her car," in the rear-view mirror. "It was closing in very fast, at about 50 meters (165 feet) behind her and 20 meters (66 feet) off the ground. The UFO was oval in shape with red, yellow, blue and green lights that rotated very fast. She stopped her car, and the object flew over her car at 20 meters above, and she got a good look at the UFO. It then accelerated at very high speed, heading for the Estrecho de Magallanes (Strait of Magellan)." The sighting was investigated by Bertran Cardenas of Agrupacion de Investigaciones Ovniologicas (AION), Chile's foremost UFO study group. On Tuesday, December 9, 1997, a friend of Cardenas's telephoned "to tell him that he was watching a UFO over his house. Bertran grabbed his videocamera and his binoculars and went there as fast as he could. The object was too high to capture on video, so he observed it with his binoculars." Cardenas reported, "The UFO had the shape of a ring of smoke with a ball in the middle. The object started moving at 80 to 100 kilometers per hour (48 to 60 miles per hour-J.T.). Then it changed shape into a sphere of smoke and then into a solid metallic sphere. At that point, the UFO began to reflect the sunlight so I turned on my videocamera." Cardenas added that the UFO "looked just like the one filmed in Mexico during a lunar eclipse" a few years ago. (Muchas gracias a Luis Sanchez Perry para esas historias.) BRUNEI MEN SPOT A UFO HOVERING OVER THEIR TOWN A UFO hovered briefly last week over the town of Kilanas in Brunei Darussalam, an Islamic country on the northern coast of Borneo. Several residents claimed to have seen bright UFOs cavorting in the night sky. "Among them are Cham Rajuto and a colleague, who saw mysterious lights" in the sky above Jalan Tutong Tham street in Kilanas. "The lights," Cham said, "are moving in a clockwise direction, coming together and then separating out, circling over and over, covering 30 to 45 degrees left and right of the vertical in a large area of the sky." (See the Toronto Globe and Mail for December 8, 1997, page D-4. Many thanks to Drew Williamson and Errol Bruce- Knapp for this report.) TWO BOYS PHOTOGRAPH UFO OVER SIRACUSA On November 15, 1997, at about 4 p.m., two teenaged boys spotted a UFO over their hometown of Siracusa, a port city in Sicily on the Golfo di Augusta, 224 kilometers (140 miles) southeast of Palermo. Grabbing a 35mm camera, the boys shot several photos "of an object of discoidal form" as it "moved about in an erratic manner through the skies above Siracusa." The UFO also "periodically halted in mid-air" from time to time. They described the object as having the shiny reflective surface "of the glass of a window." (See the Italian newspaper Giornale di Sicilia for November 30, 1997. Grazie a Edoardo Russo e Antonio Rapulla per questo rapporto.) GLOWING UFO FRIGHTENS ONLOOKERS IN TUNISIA On November 9, 1997, at 10:10 p.m., "a strange phenomenon" appeared in the sky over Sfax, a port city on the south central coast of Tunisia. The UFO was described as "bright orange" and "was a sort of great luminous mass with a dense center but very clear toward the exterior." The object "glowed like fire and even more so like a plasma effect. It was not a reflection of a possible flare." Crowds of onlookers in Sfax watched the UFO for about four minutes. "A strange odor permeated the air, a blend of the smell of sulfuric acid and of dead fish." One witness estimated the size of the UFO as "eight centimeters (four inches) if held at the end of an outstretched hand, and perhaps six kilometers (four miles) away." The orange glow then began to flutter "like a light in another room, when the door begins to close." The UFO zipped away to the southwest, heading for the Chott Fejaj salt desert. Sfax is 320 kilometers (200 miles) south of Tunis. (Merci beaucoup aux Mahmoud el-Mejdoub et Banque OVNI-Tunisie pour ces nouvelles.) CHUPACABRA STRIKES TWICE IN PUERTO RICO On November 10, 1997, at about 2 a.m., the Chupacabra or "goatsucker" attacked a livestock pen at Granja Marina farm in the Barrio San Isidro section of Loiza Aldea, Puerto Rico (P.R.) 15 miles (24 kilometers) east of San Juan. According to police reports, two goats were killed, four others "were bled dry" and a baby goat was stolen. Farm worker Jess Betato, an immigrant from the Dominican Republic, "heard what he described as 'a flutter of wings' at that time of night" and "he claims he saw three horses and 58 cows, who were in a fenced area, 'run as if the Devil were in pursuit.' It was then that the cries of the goats could be heard in the tropical darkness." Betato started towards the goat pen with his dog, a Dalmatian, at his side. Suddenly, his dog "made a sudden 'about face' and broke into a furious run in the opposite direction, tail between its legs. Taking a cue from the animal's behavior, Betato retreated to the farmhouse and waited for daybreak before returning to the site." When he examined the dead goats, Betato noticed that "the animals had deep 'puncture marks' on the right side of their throats." Carlos Ortiz, owner of Granja Marina farm, asked Puerto Rican police to "redouble their efforts" to find the slayer. He reportedly lost 30 goats to Chupacabra attacks back in 1995. One week later, on November 17, 1997, Chupacabra struck again, this time at the Sabana Hoyos prison camp 30 miles (48 kilometers) west of San Juan. "According to a report by Colonel Mariano Aponte, police chief of the Arecibo (P.R.) area, 34 hogs were found dead with strange puncture marks on their necks through which blood was extracted." "Jesus Rodriguez Rosario, an officer with the Department of Corrections, reported to work at 7 a.m., as was his custom, and came across the 34 slain animals." News of the incident at Sabana Hoyos "spread like wildfire across the island" of Puerto Rico. One farmer, Roberto Rivera Garcia, told the newspaper El Vocero, "Those of us who believed the murderer of our animals--the Chupacabra--had disappeared for good and were therefore more at ease, have been fooled. He only took a protracted vacation." (Many thanks to Scott Corrales, author of CHUPACABRAS AND OTHER MYSTERIES, Greenleaf Publications, 1997, for these news stories.) MYSTERIOUS PLANE CRASH CAUSES MAMMOTH FIRE IN IRKUTSK, SIBERIA On Saturday afternoon, December 6, 1997, an Aeroflot Antonov 124 jet transport took off from Irkutsk, the largest city in Siberia, for the second lap of its Moscow-to-Hanoi flight. Nearly seventy people were killed in the catastrophic crash, including all 23 crew members. All four jet engines of the Antonov 124 suddenly failed as the 120-ton transport began its climbout. The plane then nosedived into a residental district. "Residents reported hearing a powerful explosion that shook their homes and blew open windows. People ran into the street in panic and looked up to see the 11-year-old cargo plane fall almost without sound from the sky, crashing into a four-story building." "The tail of the AN-124 protruded from the side of an apartment building demolished by the crash and the fire." "Three hundred firefighters battled flames that consumed a 1,000-yard (330-meter) area; as the smoke and fire subsided, the water froze, gilding the rubble with a thick layer of ice. About 1,400 rescue workers hunted through debris at the crash site searching for victims." Investigators pursued leads as to the cause of the crash, including contaminated fuel or inadequate de-icing in the 5 degree (Fahrenheit) weather, "but had few leads as to what actually happened, said Emergency Situations Minister Sergei Shoigu." "'We're not trying to hide. We're just trying to get you the truth,' Shoigu said." Irkutsk in on the Angara River east of Lake Baikal, about 3,520 kilometers (2,200 miles) southeast of Moscow. (See USA Today for December 8, 1997, page A-3. Also the Boston, Mass. Herald for December 8, 1997, page 2) Editor's Comment: The Antonov 124 crash in Irkutsk is a virtual repeat of the jetliner crash in Sao Paulo, Brazil a year ago.) from the UFO Files... 1909: CIGAR-SHAPED UFO FOLLOWS A TRAIN IN MASSACHUSETTS This week we continue our look back at the 1909 UFO flap in the USA's New England states. When the conductor of the Evening Limited pulled out his pocket watch and bellowed, "All aboooooard!" at Boston's North Station the evening of December 23, 1909, he had no idea his train was about to make UFO history. Belching black smoke, the big Baldwin steam locomotive rumbled out of the station, heading north on the Boston and Maine Railroad tracks. Meanwhile, 55 miles up the line, in Fitchburg, Massachusetts, "soon after 6 o'clock, like fire the word went around that the mysterious airship that startled Worcester the night before was hovering over the city. Over the peak of Rollstone Hill a wonderfully bright light glowed, and hundreds watched it with wonder, not unmixed with awe." (See the Fitchburg, Mass. Sentinel for December 24, 1909, page 1.) As the Evening Limited approached the town of Ayer, 30 miles (48 kilometers) northwest of Boston, a cigar-shaped UFO came down from the sky and hovered above the train. "A messenger on a train westbound out of Boston first saw the airship at Ayer, when it came down from the west to meet the train. The messenger is a violent convert to the airship theory. He says the powerful light of the ship was played upon the cars of the train, and it followed along until this city (Fitchburg--J.T.) was reached. Then it temporarily disappeared and was not picked up again until the train got up the line, and for some time the light played over and around the cars." (See the Fitchburg, Mass. Sentinel for December 24, 1909.) "Inspector Frank Metcalf of the (Springfield, Mass.) police claims to have seen the mysterious airship last evening. He was coming from Boston on the Fitchburg division of the Boston & Maine Railroad and said that after leaving Athol his attention was called to the airship, although all he could see of it was the searchlight. The machine kept ahead of the train from Athol until near Miller's Falls when it shot off to the side and went away. The machine was driven ahead of the train and then would wait until the train caught up and would go ahead again. It seemed to be a good height in the air and kept about at the same height during all the time it was following the train. Considerable interest was manifested among the passengers, and a closer view of the flyer would have been welcome. Some of the passengers saw the light when the train was as far east as Ayer Junction." (See the Springfield, Mass. Union-News for December 25, 1909.) (Editor's Comment: Fitchburg is definitely the UFOs' "home port" in Massachusetts. The city, located in north central Massachusetts, has had UFO sightings in 1909, 1921, 1937, 1947, 1950, 1955, 1957, 1967, 1973, 1975, 1979, and most recently in April 1996.) FUN UFO WEBSITES: Parallel Universe, a "one-stop-shopping UFO store," will soon have a physical site to go along with its website. Owned and operated by Christy Castleton-Graf and James D. (Dog House) Graf of Alamo, Nevada, the store offers a wide array of UFO, Area 51 and Alien-related merchandise, including hats, books, videos, bumper stickers, artwork, bags and statuary. You can order by phone by calling 1-800-484-2635--enter 1614 after the tone. Or drop in at their website at this URL: http://www.ufo-hyway.com Don't neglect our parent site during this holiday season. UFOINFO has the latest in photos and features. You'll find us at this site: http://www.digiserve.com/ufoinfo/ Back issues of UFO ROUNDUP are always available at our site, too. Check them out at http://www.digiserve.com/ufoinfo/roundup/ You'll never guess what today is. Does "quatrains" give you a clue? Yes, December 14 is the birthday of Nostradamus. That "Prince of Prognosticators" was born on December 14, 1503. Born Michel de Notredame, he grew up to become a famous astrologer and wrote in predictions in the form of poetry. Many of the prophecies have proven uncannily accurate, providing detailed predictions of future events such as the French Revolution, the rise and fall of Napoleon, the Third Reich and Adolf Hitler, the assassinations of the Kennedys and Martin Luther King, the Gulf War and Saddam Hussein, and the death of Princess Diana earlier this year. Michel, better known by his Latin name of "Nostradamus," died on July 2, 1566. Here's my stab at prediction--we'll be back in seven days with more saucer news from "the paper that goes home--UFO ROUNDUP." See you then! UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1997 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO ROUNDUP on their websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue the item first appeared.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 14 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:42:31 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:38:47 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:12:40 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >>> Corso is of course going to held responsible for the contents of >>> the book. That, however, does not translate to his having full >>> knowledge of its contents prior to publication. >>Then that is his problem -- not ufology's. >>Rebecca ><Giant snip> >Pleez, everyone: >Corso is crap. I interviewed his co-author, William Birnes, for >Omni Online on Sept 2, 1997, a portion of which was recently >republished in the December MUFON UFO Journal, pp. 6-7. >Here is a relevant exchange: >Stacy: "As you're no doubt aware, Corso's version of Roswell >differs from what has been previously published. For example, he >has Jesse Marcel at a crash site where bodies were recovered, >something Marcel never mentioned, despite the numerous times he >was interviewed." >Birnes: "The book's version of Roswell is simply a compilation of >Roswell stories as a background to what happened later. In fact, >it was added at the very end because the publisher believed that >not enough readers were familiar with the basic story. So I >imagine there are hundreds of disagreements between the story in >the first chapter and other versions of the story. But [it] is >meant to be only the most general of introductions." >In short, there you have it, straight from the horse's mouth. The >Roswell scenario as portrayed in 'The Day After Roswell' is a >fictional concoction from start to finish -- added at the >publisher's request, and presumably supplied by Birnes. (If Corso >was really privy to official government files, as he claims, then >he would have been able to set the so-called record straight >instead of confusing it further.) Dennis, Can you spell 'irrelevant'? >But even this statement is disingenuous in the extreme. How could >the publisher have accepted a title with Roswell in its name to >begin with, only to ask for a "clarification" of Roswell at the >last moment? The short answer is that they couldn't have and >wouldn't have, had they bothered to conduct any research of their >own. Or 'priorities'? __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 14 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:12:59 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:02:05 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:44:39 +0100 (MET) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Hi Jared, Steven, >Please keep in mind that before publication of the book >nobody knew how much money it would earn for Corso or for the >publisher. >In other words, the "how much money has he made" issue >is irrelevant. >I have develop a rule for this: the faster someone >claims that a certain act in Ufology is done for the money, >the less research the claimant has done. >Henny Henny: Have you ever heard of a little thing called an "advance"? It's money a publisher pays *prior* to publication. Strieber got a million for Communion, if memory serves, John Mack got something like $250,000 for his abduction book, Hopkins over $100,000 for Witnessed. Nick Pope was well rewarded for both of his books. Ed Walters, I believe, picked up something like a $200,000 advance for his first UFO book, along with an additional $200,000 for mini-series rights. Corso's publisher "gambled" on the free publicity the Roswell anniversary provided Corso's book, but you can be damn sure that serious cash changed hands prior to publication of the book. Birnes is a high-concept producer, meaning that he packages books; he probably signed a two or three book deal with the publisher (remember the promised Corso "memoirs" about the Kennedy assassination?). It's safe to say that the advance for The Day After Roswell was at least $100,000 and could very easily have been closer to $200,000, based on similar projects. It's also possible that movie rights had already been sold prior to publication, possibly for a similar amount. The book is in its sixth printing, I believe, and was briefly on the NY Times bestseller list -- and we haven't yet seen the paperback. Corso would be getting 50% of the above -- at the very least -- if not 75 to 80%, unless Birnes completely bamboozled him. In other words, there was plenty of money on Corso's side of the table before the book ever rolled off the presses, and perhaps before it was even written. My guess is that the Jim Marrs book, Alien Agenda, because of who he was and the way it was packaged, was probably in the $100 to $200,000 range as well. The specifics in such cases are often hard to ferret out because they exist in the form of a private contract. Unless the author wants to tell how much he or she got paid, it's almost impossible to find out, unless someone inside the publishing firm wants to "leak" the rumored amount for publicity purposes. I should reiterate that the overwhelming majority of UFO book advances are nowhere near this level -- in case anyone out there is thinking about writing a UFO book and comfortably retiring on the proceeds. I'd tell you what I got for my UFO book -- except that it would publicly embarrass both me and the publisher. If any of you out there are still suffused with the Christmas spirit, however, I still have plenty of copies available. They'd make a nice gift for your local library. UFOs 1947-1997: Fifty Years of Flying Saucers Edited by Dennis Stacy & Hilary Evans Illus, 272 pages, hardback $27.95 + $3.00 s/h, check or money order payable to: Dennis Stacy Box 12434 San Antonio Texas 78212 Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 14 Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:13:01 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:02:28 -0500 Subject: Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? >Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:44:32 +0100 (MET) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? >That is a good question. It almost seems as if ACC suffers from >the same strange habit that has always plagued the UFO community: >do an enormous amount of research, establish beyond a reasonable >doubt that something very strange happened somewhere, and them >inform nobody except the rest of the UFO community. >However, Ed Wang recently revealed that securities broker Merril >Lynch has urged ACC to go public. There is a difference between >posting a press release on a website and really going public, >which means sending the press release to all mainstream media, as >ACC should do, in my opinion. >Henny But then they might have to answer a lot of embarrassing questions from the mainstream media, mightn't they? The UFO crowd -- which has never seen a good rumor or even outright hoax that it didn't first embrace with wide-open arms -- is not usually so critical, are they? Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 14 PROJECT 1947 Research 'Notice Board' Update From: legion@mira.net Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:18:21 +1100 (EST) Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:25:53 -0500 Subject: PROJECT 1947 Research 'Notice Board' Update Greetings All; Several new entries on the PROJECT 1947 'Notice Board' at: http://www.iufog.org/project1947/47notice.htm Please contact the researchers listed if you think you might be able to assist. Thanks, John =============================================================== PROJECT 1947 NOTICE BOARD PROJECT 1947 was formed to undertake historical research into the UFO phenomenon. The PROJECT 1947 E-mail research list and the PROJECT 1947 Web site were established to further this goal. We are pleased to announce a number of research projects by PROJECT 1947 members and request assistance in their completion. While some of this contemporary research may not lie within the original guidelines of the project, we welcome research which follows generally accepted standards for academic, scientific, historic or journalistic investigations. PROJECT 1947 has several Masters and Doctoral candidates on the e-mail list, and we wish to support academic inquiry regardless of outcome. If you can help with leads, information, personal accounts, documents, etc., please contact the researchers directly and assist them in their research efforts. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- New Entries on the PROJECT 1947 Notice Board Chronicle of 1952 UFO Wave Michael Hall has just completed the manuscript for his general overview of UFOs, "Unidentified Flying Objects: One Hundred Year History." Hopefully his publisher will have this work ready by summer next year. Michael has commenced work on his next project, "The Summer 1952 UFO Sighting Wave" and would like documents, newspaper clippings and accounts from this period. This work involves an in-depth look at the phenomenon itself as well as the reactions of officials, the media and other segments of society to it. To that end he would like to interview witnesses, officials and other principals from this fascinating period. Contact: Michael Hall, Executive Director Montgomery County Historical Society 212 South Water Street P. O. Box 127 Crawfordsville, IN. 47933 U.S.A. Telephone: (765) 362-3614. E-Mail: mdhall@indy.tds.net ----------------------------------------------------------------- Shag Harbor Investigations The crash and attempted retrieval of a mysterious aerial object that entered the waters off Nova Scotia in October, 1967 is the subject of a major ongoing research project by Chris Styles and Don Ledger. Some background on the investigation so far can be found at: http://www.renaissoft.com/ufocanada/shag.htm Chris and Don have amassed a huge collection of official documents to complement the large number of eyewitness and media accounts of the incident, and believe there are still more witnesses to be found. Anyone who has information to share about this potentially highly significant event, please contact Don Ledger at dledger@ISTAR.CA ----------------------------------------------------------------- The UFO History Project Loren Gross's long-running series, The Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse, (now 46+ booklets) on the history of UFOs has reached the November 1957 flap period. Loren would welcome UFO accounts, especially from overseas, from November 1957 to December 1959. He plans revisions to some of his earlier efforts which span the period from 1896 to 1957. Loren's histories cover the vast panoply of sociological, official and popular reactions to the continued curiosity about strange things seen in the sky. Some of the best-known names in UFOlogy have contributed to this unique project. He can be reached at: Loren Gross 690 Gable Dr. Fremont, CA. 94538 U.S.A. Loren does not have e-mail but Ed Stewart will relay messages to him via egs@netcom.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- Alfred C. Loedding, Project Sign "Initiator" and Monitor My name is Robert C. Loedding. I am attempting to gather information about my uncle, Alfred C. Loedding, who died in 1963. Alfred was employed at Wright-Patterson AFB (WPAFB) from May 1938 to Feb. 1951. We have obtained his personnel file from the Office of Personnel Management and it contains very interesting information about his work at WPAFB, including his involvement in Project Sign. The material indicates that he was the civilian engineer assigned with a Dr. Carroll to set up the procedures for this operation. I quote from one of the documents: -------------------------------------------- AMC Form No. 10-3 MATERIAL COMMAND Subject: Efficiency Rating of Mr. Alfred C. Loedding To: MCACXC-12 from MCIA Date 5 May 48 4. Instances of Mr. Loedding's accomplishments which were of outstanding credit to the division are given below: a. Mr. Loedding was assigned as monitor for the Project "Sign" and subsequently devoted much time and attention toward investigating various reported sightings of so-called unidentified flying objects, an intelligence item of vital importance to the National security. As a result of his recommendations, and many discussions with higher echelon personnel, T.I. 2185, Add. No. 3 was initiated to set up the reporting policy and procedures. Practically all details of this directive were worked out by Mr. Loedding. b. Acting as monitor of Project "Sign" required initiative to expedite action in dealing with high officials of this command and also with higher authority in HQ, USAF in reducing it to a real project and initiating a T.I. This also involved working out details of operation and preparation of guides for reporting unidentified aerial phenomena which are now being used by the Military Attache offices. (Signed by) Miles E. Goll, Civ Chief, Tech Intelligence Div, Intelligence Department (Countersigned by) W.R. Clingerman, Colonel, USAF, Chief, Tech Intelligence Div Intelligence Department -------------------------------------------- An earlier document - classified "Secret" from: Headquarters, Air Material Command TSNAD-2B/ACL/amc, Wright Field, Dayton O. 24 Sept 47 "Flying Saucers" Commanding General, Army Air force, Washington 23, D.C. Attn. AC/AS - 2, Lt. Col Garrett It is requested that this office be furnished all information concerning an alleged "Flying Saucer" flight sighting made by a radar station in Japan. This incident was mentioned by Dr. Charles Carroll during a conference in Brig Gen Schulgen's office attended by Mr. A. C. Loedding, T-2 representative, on 5 September 1947. FOR THE COMMANDING GENERAL: /s/ M.E. Goll /t/ H.M. McCoy Colonel, Air Corps Deputy Commanding General Intelligence T-2 -------------------------------------------- I also have a tape of a TV program called "Sightings" that reviewed the incident in 1948 involving the crash of a Kentucky National Guard P-51. That program spoke of a Colonel Howard McCoy and Alfred Loedding coming from WPAFB to investigate the incident, and characterized Alfred as "The mysterious Alfred Loedding whose extensive files held the key to the mystery of UFO's." Unfortunately, his "extensive files" (which he did have in his home) seem to have disappeared. Any assistance in providing information about our uncle Alfred would be greatly appreciated. Please contact me at Loeddingr@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- UFO Sightings - Canada/Atlantic Provinces Don Ledger is collecting accounts of UFOs and unusual aerial phenomena sighted at sea or over land near the Canadian east coast and the Atlantic Provinces, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland/Labrador. In times past, ships' captains would often send one of the crew to contact the local newspapers and report any unusual phenomena encountered at sea. Over the years many people have searched ships' logs and collected other maritime accounts from a variety of sources. Don would be interested in any collections of such material that might be at local libraries, historical societies or in private files. Contact Don at dledger@ISTAR.CA --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- PROJECT 1947 | E-Mail: http://www.iufog.org/project1947/ | legion@werple.net.au Search for other documents from or mentioning: legion | mdhall |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 14 Dr Mack and the Investigation of Abductions From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:46:01 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:49:07 -0500 Subject: Dr Mack and the Investigation of Abductions John E. Mack, M.D., Professor of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School _Abductions_ by Harvard psychiatrist, John E. Mack, contains a great deal of information from his therapy sessions with his patients that suggests that the Alien Abduction Experience [AAE] is a disguised form of Out-of-Body Experience. Dr. Mack acknowledges that in some cases a ... ... 'complete' abduction does not appear to occur. The individual may have an out-of-body experience while others see that he or she has not left the house". [Mack, John E. (1994). Abduction. New York: Charles Scribner's Sons. p. 394-5.] In contrast, Dr Mack assumes that any case without a corroborating eye witnesses must involve a 'complete' and genuine kidnapping of the physical body of the experiencer. Of course, we must also consider the testimony of the experiencer. Unfortunately, Dr. Mack makes no attempt to compare/contrast the content of the experiencer reports given by: 1. those whose physical bodies were observed not to move during the 'abduction'; and, 2. those whose physical bodies were not observed during the time of the 'abduction'. I'm thinking that the more similarities there are in these two sets of experiencer reports, the less need there is to postulate a mechanism beyond the one for which we have eye witnesses. Consequently, I would greatly appreciate any references to published reports where the experiencer's physical body was observed (either by the experiencer or by others) during the time of the experience. And I would very much like to hear from experiencers who: * came back to find that they had been observed not to leave * understood from the beginning (or came to understand later) that their body had stayed behind as well as any eyewitnesses to this sort of event. Thanks in Advance Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com> Trionic Research Institute http://www.trionica.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 14 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:35:33 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:42:04 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso Jared Anderson wrote: > From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:48:42 EST > Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:30:14 -0500 > Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) > >Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:48:35 -0700 > >Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:53:01 -0500 > >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >> Corso CLAIMS to have the right military credentials. That is > >> quite different from actually having them. > >> Be skeptical. Check some of the places Corso claims to have gone > >> and some of the people that he claimed to meet with. Not only > >> were some of him meetings an impossibility but he doesn't get > >> people's names or job descriptions correct. > >> Sorry I can't go into more detail at this time. > >> Rebecca > > Rebecca this is a rather tall claim here. Please provide more > > information about Corso's "non-military" record as it becomes > > available to you. > I didn't say that Corso had no military record. I said he made > claims about his military record which seem to be a little > different than the record via FOIA by Larry Bryant. Not too big > of deal. > It has been claimed by Corso and/or Birnes that there wasn't > enough room in the book to provide documentation for Corso's > claims. I'm skeptical of that claim. I feel Corso can't back up > many of his claims. That's my opinion. > It's not up to me, you, or anyone -- other than Corso and/or > Birnes -- to provide documentation for their claims. Why not?...Wouldn't you be intersted in legitimate documentation irrespective of who dug it up? > Some of the specific and some of the not so specific claims > relating to people, places and events have been shown to be an > impossibility. Forgot about the back engineering claims and look > at what was said about specific people and you will find all > sorts of mistakes. Those mistakes, IMO, should not have been made > and don't appear to have been corrected in other printings. So, > do we just make Birnes the scapegoat? Or do we say, well, Corso > is old, perhaps that's why these mistakes are in the book? How > many excuses do we allow a man who offers up a wild tale, of > which he's the hero, and offers not one iota proof for anything > that he says? > Maybe you can make excuses for him, but I don't have to and I > won't. What excuses? > It's an interesting story but unfortunately Corso's tale just > adds to so much of the garbage that already litters this field. yes, yes, what would a dissenting view on this list be without this overused rhetorical endstatement. Before you finish punctuating your thought, Let's keep this in perspective here so you don't misunderstand what I asked you. This discussion has nothing to do with Corso's UFO claims or Roswell or backengineering or anything else, this discussion is about his military record. If you have some information or evidence that casts doubt on specific aspects of his military record than I reccommend you post it. According to his FOIA military record his claims of heading the FTD for 2 years were overstated and that he actually held this position for only 90 days. Corso claims a tour in North Africa. This is not reflected in his military record. This what I'm talking about...do you have other evidence of this type? Flaws in Corso's UFO and backengineering claims are a dime a dozen and exist everywhere you look but using the FOIA to attempt to verify or refute Corso's alien claims is a laughable concept. The FOIA's usefulness in this capacity will provide evidence to either support or refute his more terrestrial claims, service record, and credentials. Jared.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 14 BWW Media Alert 971212 From: BufoCalvin <BufoCalvin@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:44:09 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:52:03 -0500 Subject: BWW Media Alert 971212 Bufo Calvin, P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 E-mail: BufoCalvin@aol.com Website: http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin ( <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/ BufoCalvin/index.html">BufoCalvin's Home Page</A> ) TAP (The Address Project) Bufo's WEIRD WORLD e-zine Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Books ( http://members.aol.com/weirdware/books.ht Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Books ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert provided that attribution is made to http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with strangers before you e-mail them something. If you forward this, please make sure it is clear that you are forwarding it). December 12, 1997 Gang, I've tried this twice with the new server, and no go. I'm trying it again with the old one...we'll see if that works! My apologies if you get it more than once... -------------- Well, this is the first real sending with the new server, which ought to improve things. One note: the only e-mail where you can expect to reach me in a reasonable amount of time is the one in the header: bufocalvin@aol.com. I use some others, but only really for out-going and don't check them very often. This note will be short: crushed for time as usual. Been especially busy lately, and I have an article I really want to get written this week... ACTN (Action?) is running UFOS: ABOVE AND BEYOND (hosted by James Doohan) at 5 AM, 7PM on Saturday, and 4:30 PM on Sunday. The Discovery Channel has INSIDE AREA 51 on Sunday at 10:00 PM and Monday at 2:00 AM. Also, the cryptozoology series INTO THE UNKNOWN is covering the Giant Squid on Thursday at 9:00 PM and Friday at 1:00 AM. The History Channel has a Roswell special on Sunday at 8:00 PM and Monday at Midnight (Sunday night). It's called: ROSWELL: AN ALIEN OBSESSION. MTV has ABDUCTED! (which I've heard is played for laughs) at 11:00 AM on Tuesday. Well, that's all I can do right now...maybe more later this week. ____________________________ You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com. You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to Bufo's WEIRD WORLD (which covers theories and happenings) the same way. Also, please let me know if there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, the week before. _____________________________ **OPUS is the Organization for Paranormal Understanding and Support. I am an Executive Boardmember, and Director of the OPUS Educational Institute. OPUS encourages its officers and Network Associates to express their own opinions: however, it is important to note that I do not speak for OPUS in this piece or others presented under my own name. The new OPUS phone number is (510) 689-4198 ______________________________ Bufo's WEIRD WORLD BOOKS ( <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/weirdware/books.htm l">Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Books</A> ) I'm very excited about this! Some of you know, I ran a bookstore for years, and it has always been a love of mine. I get asked often to recommend books (I do write reviews for several publications) on these topics, and now I can do it and actually give you a source for them at the same time! This is being done in association with Amazon.com, which has an outstanding reputation for the five "S"s of internet shopping: selection, searchability, service, savings, and security. If there is any specific book you want (or topic in which you are interested), let me know and I will do the research and e-mail you a link you can use to check it out more (and order it if you want). I will be linking to books within the Media Alert, to make it more efficient for you. If you click on the link, you will be sent to that title on Amazon. You do =not= have to buy it at that point! You may, but the option is yours.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 14 UFO News International 33 From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:47:07 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:57:37 -0500 Subject: UFO News International 33 __ _ _____ ______ ___________________________ || | || // \ ___ ____ || | || || | |\ | | \ / / || | ||___ || | | \ | |___ \ /\ / |___ || | || || | | \| |___ \__/ | \____/ || ||_____/ ___________ __________/ _______________________________________ /_\ /_\ \ |I|n|t|e|r|n|a|t|i|o|n|a|l| / \ ___________________________ / \___________/\_______________ / =FF - 33 - __________________________________________________ * Patenting alien computer technology 2 * Alien abductions and blood type 4 * ACC sues US Air Force for hiding an alien spacecraft 4 * The Roswell craft still functions, says ACC 7 * Interview with Steven Greer 8 * Web sites 16 * You can use UFO News International articles 16 __________________________________________________ - 1 of 17 - - UFO News International 33 - ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// For direct subscriptions, send your e-mail address to: hvdp@worldonline.nl ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ************************************************************** Patenting alien computer technology ************************************************************** ___________________ C O M M E N T A R Y _____________________ During the course of their research into the UFO cover up, American Computer Company of Cranford, New Jersey, had acquired documents from the US Air Force and from AT & T that support previous rumors that the US Air Force is hiding an extraterres- trial spacecraft. Another result of their research were strong indications that in the years after the second world war, large American companies such as AT & T and IBM have acquired portions of information from the US military that led them in the direction of ground breaking inventions such as the transistor. ACC's president Jack Shulman has publicly stated that, if this were true, he would be outraged that these companies have kept the technology for themselves. At least AT & T would have had wittingly fooled the public about the invention of the transistor and kept the results - and the generated income from it - for itself. A recent development in this saga is the discovery by ACC of a heretofore unknown electronic component in documentation about the hidden UFO. This documentation was sold to ACC by an unknown third party. The alleged alien device is described as composed of four fundamental elements that together form a capacitor, a unit that conserves electromagnetic energy. Unlike conventional capacitors, the component can store energy in levels. ACC explains that implementation of massive numbers of this miniature component can shrink present day computers to roughly 1/50 to 1/1000 of their size or increase memory 50 to 1000 fold. ACC dubs it the "trans capacitor" or Transcap or T-CAP. ACC describes the discovery on its web page: http://www.american-computer.com/Transcap.htm Had this component been discovered in 1947, the discovery would have been about as earthshaking as the transistor itself was. Interestingly, ACC now explains that it has filed a patent on this new device. ACC has also trademarked the names "transfer capacitor", "Transcap", "transpacitor" and "T-CAP". This development shows two things. In the first place it streng- thens the basic Roswell story, at least the ACC version, that an extraterrestrial spaceship crashed near Roswell in July 1947 and that a second spacecraft landed as a rescue effort, to a phenome- nal extent. This second craft was acquired intact by the US Air Force, then part of the Army Air Force and was studied intensive- ly, of which documentation has now surfaced. - 2 of 17 - - UFO News International 33 - If ACC had not discovered the transcapacitor during their UFO research, why would a medium sized information technology company announce such a groundbreaking invention and ascribe it to an extraterrestrial source? If ACC engineers have been responsible for the discovery, they would now be eligible for the Nobel prize in physics. The second thing this development shows is that ACC is capable of doing roughly the same thing it accuses AT & T of: keeping the technology to itself by applying for patents and trademarks. Human nature being as it is, this should be no surprise. After all, the world revolves around personal interests and it would be foolish to assume otherwise. Furthermore, there are important differences between the AT & T transistor patent and the ACC transcapacitor patent: AT & T allegedly received the technology through the US military, while ACC did its own research and was offered fifty year old notes which it bought. In other words, it did nothing wrong or illegal. Finally, at least ACC admits that the new component is based on extraterrestrial technology, which is progress for Ufology. Though hardly covered in the news, ACC's discovery seems to be attracting a lot of attention already from other companies in the computer industry. According to Ed Wang, who is a former writer for the New York Times, several have offered ACC licensing agreements for the technology, while others, among which IBM and Compaq, have offered to buy ACC. Also, securities broker Merrill Lynch has contacted American Computer about getting them to go public "right now", in other words: go to the stock market. And at least one individual has filed a complaint with the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) saying that the publicity around American Computer in the last week has been so much, that it appears as if the company were "going public without a registration statement" with the SEC. A word of caution is in place here. Right after the T-CAP announcement, IBM stated that it had already invented a device similar to the T-CAP. ACC has waved its hand against this, but IBM could well be right. It certainly has the technological prowess to invent such a device. In thas case, ACC gets no patent. But if ACC is right, the discovery of this technology is among the first spin offs of UFO research that reaches the public domain. It is also one of the first instances in which Ufology directly benefits mankind as a whole. The interesting thing for me now is whether the mainstream media will keep up their ostrich act with their heads sticking three feet deep in the sand. - HvdP ______________________________________________________________ - 3 of 17 - - UFO News International 33 - ************************************************************** Alien abductions and blood type ************************************************************** In the previous issue I asked the readers of this newsletter who felt that they were abductees to send me their blood type. This was because an interesting theory had reached me that connected the alien abduction phenomenon to a human blood type. At this moment I cannot present any results, because the reactions were disappointing. Out of an estimated 14,000 readers only 7 reacted, so the sample is simply too small. If the other abductee readers really want to help verifying this relationship, I hereby urge them again to send me their blood type. Anonimity will be granted. - HvdP ************************************************************** ACC sues US Air Force for hiding an alien spacecraft ************************************************************** By Ed Wang, slightly edited ACC has been persistent. I understand that they have fired off a lawsuit (four weeks ago) with the Judge Advocate General of the US Air Force and have obtained a Court Order against the Air Force Engineering Installations and IT Divisions that may eventually compel them to release: a) the documents they failed to about Project Blue Book and the Roswell UFO b) the actual debris from Roswell and an unclaimed craft that was found by the Air Force in the vicinity of Corona California in July of 1947. - Corona is in New Mexico, - HvdP The craft is not "classified", ACC's president Jack Shulman told me. It has been dubbed "experimental military aircraft", so that it ordinarily would not be available to the public and all documents about it subject to perpetual classification. I understand that the Air Force has until the second week in January to respond and is bound irrevocably by the Order of Protection, being monitored by the Department of Justice and the US Marshall Service. /\ -------- / \ - 4 of 17 - - UFO News International 33 - The lawsuit is based on "fraudulent representation of property of the United States Government" and includes writs of Habeous Corpus demanding production of documents, things and corpses, connected with the Roswell matter. ACC says it may be pending for several years, given the immediate effort by the Air Force to slow the fast track of the lawsuit, and to quell production. ACC has also cornered President Clinton, sending one of their lobbyists to meet with him: they got him to release a statement that he has a "personal interest"in UFOlogy and wants the ultimate facts surrounding any military dossiers and Alien Hardware in the US Government's possession released to the public. But admitting that despite the fact that he is the Commander in Chief, he may not have the ability to cause the release, due to the problem with ultra-classified materials from the past, he has not yet been able to get the DoD to brief him on the project allegedly assigned to the Roswell craft, or so he said. ACC has approached both Colin Powell and Norman Schwarzkopf about the possibility of organizing a Pro Bono Observation Team (PBOT) to enter and examine the alleged storage facility housing the craft. It is my understanding that the Judge Advocate General of the Army and Air Force has issued a ruling ordering a protective order on the facility, barring removal of any materials from it by the NSA and by the DoD, or any agent thereof. ACC has asked General (ret.) Alexander Haig to join the PBOT. Apparently Al Haig was one of the sources of the ACC story, although I have not confirmed this, and may be the consultant, the identity of whom Jack has been protecting. Haig is working on Defense Communications based on high altitude blimps, and they have adopted the name of the Air Force's secret extra-terrestrial flyby monitoring system: Skystation, which is referred to in the FAX sent to ACC's technical support desk. But Haig is not the source of that document - ACC has confirmed it came from Langley Air Force Base, and was sent them not so by accident, after the posting of their story on the Internet. ____ Editor's comment: Interestingly, there is a reference to Skystation in the November 1997 issue of Byte, the world's leading computer magazine. The article 'Fiber in the Sky' by John Montgomery describes various projects to put systems of communications satellites into orbit. In the table 'The Air up There' on page 68, under High Altitude Long Endurance platforms (HALE), we find 'Skystation'. HALEs are described as solar powered lightweight airplanes or lighter than air craft that hover over an unmoving spot some 70,000 feet above the earth. Not often talked about, and now primarily a research venture. An example of HALE that uses blimps is Skystation. - 5 of 17 - - UFO News International 33 - The author John Montgomery claims not to know whether this was the same Skystation as was mentioned by Jack Shulman. The Byte article does mention however that Skystation is a system that uses blimps, exactly like the Skystation that Shulman et al. are talking about. However, there appear to be two Skystations, one that is a communications platform for Internet transmissions and one that is a top secret US Air Force asset. Jack Shulman sheds further light on this: 'Alexander Haig's "Skystation Blimp" is a form of mass Internet Communications System based on not yet built nor launched Lighter Than Air Craft (blimps) proposed by Skystation, Inc. This system is based on radio waves with such a high frequency that rain, clouds and even smog could interfere with it, and which has been discredited lately on this account. But this system is verifiably NOT the same thing as the US Air Force's "Skystation Satellite". They are two different things. Apparently, the Air Force's Skystation is a CLASSIFIED Space Communications Platform, while Haig's Skystation, Inc. is a COMMERCIAL Network of Hydrogen/Helium blimps with two-way digital Internet re-transmitters. None of Haig's Skystation blimps have been built or launched yet, nor have they been licensed yet to use the key radio frequencies by the FCC, and the entire commercial Skystation, Inc. plan may be infeasible due to its sensitivity to bad weather - that kink hasn't been worked out yet. On the other hand, the Air Force's Classified Skystation Space Platform appears to be in full operation and appears to have sent us an outage message at the end of July by Fax transmission. The similarities end at the Air Force's choice of code name, and Skystation, Inc's use of its marketing-hype name. Is the commercial one designed to provide cover for the Air Force satellite? I don't know.' - HvdP ____ Ed Wang continued. ACC has also met with estate management trustees for Walter Brattain, one of the co-inventors of the transistor, about some documents that were in his estate when he passed away. These documents were, despite his published writings, dispositive about his having been convinced by his superiors at Bell Labs to put his name on phony patent disclosures surrounding the AT&T Transistor. I understand that the lawyers who Brittain had originally hired for his estate had passed copies to ACC for examination. I also understand that a document that was drawn up to protect them from AT&T and signed by Brattain, Shockley and Bardeen, may be being sought, in that it was filed with their - 6 of 17 - - UFO News International 33 - lawyer as a means by which to convince AT&T that "if anything should happen to us, then our lawyers will release this letter to the public, the press and the government". ACC has indicated they will not be adding new information to their website until almost New Years, and have asked me to serve as a "go between", limiting my postings to those who have sent me their email addresses, and to Francisco Lopez's list server. I believe however that they are still taking calls, but keeping their heads down and also having a very busy holiday sale season on their PCs. Shulman told me he didn't want the Public coming to his website and buying PCs for the holidays as a result of any earth shattering news posted there about Roswell, so he has locked the Roswell story-well. But many of us are trying to convince him to change his mind. There are about 50 pages of things ACC does NOT want me to release in my letters to you that have my mind boggled. ACC has also indicated that while it has received numerous offers about books and movies concerning its story, it has withheld any agreement to the many offerers, and is working mainly on the effort to get the UFO and documents (and bodies?) produced by the Air Force for public inspection... I applaud them. I heard that they have put a lawyer between them and the many requests coming from companies, from ghost writers, from screenplay writers and many others and aren't committing to anything. ************************************************************** The Roswell craft still functions, says ACC ************************************************************** By Ed Wang I was told by American's Jay Schwartz, who told me to tell you these and other facts will be more fleshed out on ACC's website: "ACC is surfacing an indepth profile of the relationship between Brigadier General Roger Maxwell Ramey, General Hoyt Vandenberg, Harry Truman, Lt. Colonel Charles Irvine, Colonel Herb Kalberer, and General Jack Cossart, as being the key players in the hiding and transport of the undamaged Space Craft, and the pieces from its partner, the Space Craft that crash landed. According to ACC, the craft were transported and described to curious people, by air, flatbed and rail, as "Radar Dish Components". They were taken underground and hidden at the "Advanced Radiotronic Research Center" during the early part of August, 1947. This was an AT&T facility in 1947 and is now on the grounds of and part of the "Holmdel, Crawford Corners" Research Centers maintained by Bell Labs, AT&T Labs and Lucent Labs. __|__ --_---_-- - 7 of 17 - - UFO News International 33 - The damaged or separate electronic components were then transpor- ted by two NJ State Troopers in a Truck along with two Air Force personel, Irvine and Kalberer, with instructions from General Hoyt Vandenberg on the wishes of the Air Force and Army and Truman, and transferred to Charles Kelley and John M. Morton, employed in the executive staff at Bell Labs in Murray Hill. The lab shopkeeper's notebook was from Kelley's assistant, Jefferey Prokauer and has been maintained by Prokauer ever since. It has a detailed depiction of the planning by Kelley, Morton, the legal staff and operating comittee of the physics and electronics MSS (Members of Scientific Staff) from the time period." I was further told by Schwartz: "The undamaged craft, while entered, filmed, photographed and examined, is made of a superhard synthetic element or alloy that even high energy lasers fired at it have been unable to damage. It is also still running from a nuclear power source that has never been disconnected, and maintains an operating on-board flight control system to this very day. The craft is extremely hard to comprehend, it was designed by an entirely different form of engineering than we even today understand. Some of its features have been copied, e.g. its resistance to radar penetra- tion, some of its electronic components, and materials mainly obtained from what appear to be its passenger bedding and eating area. By an executive order of president Lyndon Baines Johnson in 1967, it was ordered encased in a plastic resin and placed into a lead lined and cement lined casket and stowed at an Air Force Engineering Installations facility under level 10 clearance protection." Jay said, Jack Shulman said: "I fear that even were I to haul that UFO out of its storage area on the back of a Dodge Ram, and parade it right down the middle of Broadway, New York City, carcasses of Dead Aliens, and all, the disinformation campaigners will have so misdirected both the Public and the UFO community, that more than likely people will wonder whether it was some late-to-end part of the Wacky Greenwich Village Halloween Parade, and turn back to reading their New York Times about how great a job Bill Clinton is supposedly doing dealing with the Saddam Hussein problem, or what other rediculous notion Janet Reno has for persecuting Microsoft again..." ************************************************************** Interview with Steven Greer ************************************************************** By Monte Leach In this article Dr. Greer says that 99% of the information about UFOs is ridiculous (disinformation). He has several people who have or had Top Secret Clearances who are willing to testify to the US Congress. - 8 of 17 - - UFO News International 33 - The information about UFOs can be categorized as an ultra-black area of USAPs, Unacknowledged Special Access Projects (above top secret). In April of 1997, Dr Greer stirred up a hornets nest, by calling for government-sponsored public hearings on the UFO issue, leading to a full public disclosure on the subject. _________ Uncovering the big UFO cover-up ____________________ by Monte Leach (from Share International Magazine Nov. 97) Dr Steven Greer, a physician and former Chairman of the Depart- ment of Emergency Medicine at Caldwell Memorial Hospital in North Carolina, USA, is widely considered an authority on UFO and extraterrestrial phenomena. In 1991 he founded CSETI (the Center for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence) as a world-wide organization dedicated to establishing peaceful and sustainable relations with extraterrestrial life forms. As part of CSETI, Greer subsequently founded Project Starlight, an attempt to uncover the best scientific evidence regarding UFOs. Since 1993, Greer and other Project Starlight members have provided preliminary briefings on the UFO phenomenon for the US White House staff, a sitting director of the US Central Intelli- gence Agency, senior military leaders, senior UN leadership, members of the US Senate and House of Representatives, internati- onal leaders, and leaders in foreign governments. Greer has placed particular emphasis on identifying military, intelligence, government contractor and other government agency employees with direct, first-hand knowledge of the UFO/ET subject. Greer says he has found 107 such government witnesses. In April of this year, 15 of these witnesses testified in CSETI-sponsored briefings held in Washington, DC. Among those in attendance were representatives of more than two dozen US Congressional offices, VIPs from the Executive branch of government and the Pentagon, representatives of the Dutch Embassy, the National Academy of Sciences, and two state Governors offices. Major print and broadcast media representatives attended a separate briefing. Participants received numerous government and military documents related to UFOs, as well as a video and photographic summary tape of UFO footage. All the US government witnesses who were present signed a statement that they are willing to testify under oath before an open hearing in the US Congress concerning the UFO/ET projects and events that they personally witnessed. Dr Greer called for government-sponsored public hearings on the UFO issue, leading to a full public disclosure on the subject. In the following interview, Dr Greer discusses some of the possible implications of holding such public hearings, including the potentially embarrassing revelation that certain elements of the military-industrial complex worldwide have covered up the existence of UFOs for the past half century. - 9 of 17 - - UFO News International 33 - Share International: What has happened since the Washington DC briefings in April? Dr Steven Greer: Since then, we have been following up with senior staff and members of Congress, including several committee chairpeople of relevant committees, to negotiate having an open hearing. What happened in April caused quite a stir saying it stirred up a hornets nest might be an understatement. People who were present at the private briefing that CSETI conducted for members of Congress, the White House staff and others were somewhat horrified, I think is the word that was used, to hear top-secret witnesses who have dealt first-hand with unambiguous events such as daylight chases of UFOs involving both satellite tracking and Space Command tracking with extraordinary pursuits and attempts to shoot down the objects back in the 1980s. We had witnesses with top-secret clearances and very sensitive positions, from the Air Force, Navy and Army. We have taken a very bold step here by identifying definitive evidence related to UFOs and then presenting this to key members of the political and military establishment in the United States, as well as at the United Nations and elsewhere. It has caused not only a tremendous amount of interest, but a lot of concern over something which can only be described as the probable extra-con- stitutional management of the subject. SI: What do you mean by extra-constitutional management of the subject? SG: There are top-secret projects that are in the black area, so-called black projects, and then there are the ultra-black ones. This falls into the really ultra-black area of USAPs, Unacknowledged Special Access Projects. Even if someone senior in the chain of command makes an inquiry about them, they will be told very specifically that the project doesnt exist. This is up to and including the White House and the Joint Chiefs [of Staff at the Pentagon] levels. The best example that has been reported in the public media so far, in the New York Times and the Washington Post, has been the Senate Intelligence Committee confronting the National Reconnais- sance Office with the fact that they were building a $300 million office building that had never been authorized by Congress or the White House, and that they had set up a $1.7 thousand million slush fund that no one had authorized. You have several dynamic issues here: theres the extraterrestrial phenomenon itself; theres the covert program dealing with it; and then the disconnection between the covert management of it and the legal and constitutional government, which has largely been left out of the loop on this. This becomes a very complex problem to resolve, and thats why it has taken so much work, not only on my part, but on the part of hundreds of people with whom Im working, to try to resolve this crisis. - 10 of 17 - - UFO News International 33 - SI: Are you saying that, since the late 1940s or 50s, the US Government has known about the UFO phenomenon and has tried to keep that information away from the public in a conscious way? SG: Well, yes and no. And the reason I have to say yes and no is that you must define US Government. The group that I referred to, which has been called MJ-12, or Majestic 12, and alternately PI-40 (I dont know what that stands for), should not be confused with the US Government. For example, I spent nearly three hours briefing a sitting director of Central Intelligence, a CIA director, about this because he couldnt find out anything on the subject. So when someone says the US Government is holding back information, what they have to understand is that the US Government and 99.9 per cent of the people in it have no knowledge of this subject. Im referring to relevant members of the Senate Intelligence Committee that I briefed, relevant members of the White House staff and the CIA, and very relevant senior members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The questions then become: who is managing this and how is it being managed? These questions cause the most disturbed reaction in people in public life when they find out that there is an organization that exists which is largely based in the private sector with significant representation within the military and intelligence community, which essentially behaves independently of normal checks and balances that are necessary if youre going to have anything pretending to be a democracy. SI: Are some of the witnesses that you have spoken with actually members or former members of this covert group that has been covering up the UFO story? SG: Yes. SI: Why are they coming forward now? SG: This gets very complex. The US Government, as you and I think of it, and other governments, dont know about this subject 99 per cent of the time. The elements that do know about it work closely with large high-tech aerospace firms that do a lot of contracting with the US Government. Among those within that group, there is no unanimity on how to handle this issue. Because of what we have been doing, there are a number of them who feel that the time has come for disclosure on this. About one-third of the elements within MJ-12 feel that way. But there is still a majority, particularly the older members, who want to keep this quiet at least until after they have died. So even within that group its not monolithic. This is why it is so difficult for the subject to be brought out, because its not just a matter of saying to the public: Were not alone and there are extraterrestrials out there. And by the way, theres not a scintilla of evidence that these ETs are hostile, notwithstanding the rantings of the UFO community and the science - 11 of 17 - - UFO News International 33 - fiction buffs. The issue is much more complex because it deals with hugely vested, powerful interests that are desperate to keep this thing quiet for as long as they can because of the economic, social, technological, geopolitical, and other implications of a disclosure. SI: How many people do you estimate are involved in this covert group? SG: There are probably 200 or 300 who really know whats going on, but only a couple of dozen who are key to the operation, and I know who a few of those people are. SI: Would you describe them as oil company executives, or aerospace executives, or military people? How would you describe them in a general sense? SG: All of the above, and not necessarily the obvious suspects, by the way. Ill give you an example. After I met with the Director of Central Intelligence, I went to a southwestern city in the US, which is probably all I should say, and met with a member of MJ-12 who was quite interested in what we were doing. They were quite horrified, I think, in the sense that we were not only determined but successful in what we set out to do. He turned to me, around a huge conference table in this mansion this is a man who is a very high-tech figure and a genius and very much involved in super-computers and other things and said: You really don't need to be talking to the CIA Director about this because he doesn't know anything about this and he is not going to know anything about it. If I were you, I'd be talking to people like me, people who are involved in doing a lot of high-tech work, covertly, for contractors to the US Government. I would be talking to certain heads of think-tanks; I would be talking to certain people who are concerned about the religious implications of this, and certain religious orders. He gave me a very specific litany, and at the time I thought this man must be crazy. It turned out he was 100 per cent correct. It was very hard for me to accept this. Its much harder for someone on the Senate Intelligence Committee or the Joint Chiefs of Staff to accept that this is how this is being managed. Ill give you another example. I had a two-hour meeting with a former Head of the Ministry of Defence in the UK, and the only living five-star admiral in the world, Lord Hill-Norton, who is in the House of Lords. A couple of years ago he and I discussed this at great length. He told me: 'I know now that these UFOs are real, that there are extraterres- trial life forms, but I never knew it as a member of the British Government or as a member of the admiralty.' I looked at him and said: 'This is strange.' He said: 'I assure you that this subject never ever crossed my radar screen.' He told me this, and there was no prevarication or deceit at all; he was being completely forthcoming, as was the CIA Director, and they both basically told me the same story. - 12 of 17 - - UFO News International 33 - They could never find anything out about the subject. In fact they didnt even think to look into it because they never thought it was real. Lord Hill-Norton told me very specifically that he now has no doubt these projects exist. He and I have compared notes and shared data and weve reached this assessment: that the only way that could be possible is if it were being managed in a process parallel to conventional military and political governmental activity. I got a very similar picture from a sitting CIA Director and from a head of state in Europe that Ive met with. This is not to say that there has never been a CIA director that knew. I know that there are. Or that there has never been a president who knew some of the information. But Im quite convinced that theyre told only what the control apparatus in this issue wants them to know, and I think a great deal of it has been dis-information. Unfortunately, the UFO community and the media have taken this disinformation, hook, line and sinker. They have not asked the hard questions such as when there is an account of a cattle mutilation or a so-called abduction, whos really behind it? Is it the ETs? Almost never. Is it more likely psychological warfare experts staging these sort of events? Yes. And we know that, we have no question that thats going on. Media involvement SI: Do you think any heads of media corporations might be involved with this? SG: I certainly think there are control points that are likely within various media. I used to think not, but there have been certain things that have happened that make me very suspicious of that. I think, though, that people go too far with these kinds of conspiracy ideas. You psychologically condition the media to dismiss the subject. You discredit it, you set up hoaxes that can be exposed, you set up people who are complete charlatans. You put out information from scientists who will stand up and say this is all poppycock, so that the mainstream media, rather than doing true independent journalism, go along with whatever the status quo is because they want to be in. I myself was approached by a very senior military intelligence figure and told that, if I would work with them and merge my operation with them, they would give us unlimited access to whatever we wanted. But of course then you sell out to that, and thats something we have refused to do. Its not to say that there arent people who have done so. SI: Another point is that the media are owned by large corporati- ons that tend to be very conservative. SG: You question how independent CBS can be if they are owned by a conglomerate, or how independent NBC can be if they are owned by General Electric, a big defense operator. Another problem is the attitude the media come to the subject with. I cannot tell you how many puffed-up scientists and journalists and people who - 13 of 17 - - UFO News International 33 - consider themselves know-it-alls have said: This has to be poppycock, because if it werent, I would know about it because Im so important. Moreover, many mainstream journalists bring to it the years of ridicule and debunking, as well as the fact that the predominant feeling out there is that most of these accounts are rubbish, and theyre not incorrect in that regard. In that sense I have a lot of sympathy for the media, because Ive gone to hundreds of gatherings and UFO meetings and I would say 90 to 99 per cent of everything I hear and see is utter and complete rubbish. So a journalist could be forgiven for thinking that all of it was. Thats a mistake, but its something that is nevertheless understandable. That said, I'd say that the media people who were at the background briefing we did in Washington were very interested, and there were some good and serious stories that came out of it. SI: Is there a single person who heads this covert group, and is it international? SG: Yes, its international, no doubt about that. I seriously doubt that theres one individual that heads it. There may be a rotating chair of it, but I do know that there are a number of people involved that would be in the policymaking direction. SI: How many countries do you think are involved? SG: More than a few and less than all. I can't give you an exact number. I would say there's representation that's very large and extends from religious entities to corporate to financial to military intelligence. I can say that the major industrial powers certainly have entities that are involved with this. However, that doesnt mean, for example, the UK Prime Minister knows, or that the Ministry of Defence in the UK knows, not by any stretch of the imagination. I do want to say here on the record that a number of people in the military and intelligence communities are some of our biggest supporters for getting this information out. They are honest, upright men and women who really want this issue to get resolved. They understand how dangerous it is to our way of life to have something this powerful managed in an ultra-secret and probably illegal way. Public hearings or private efforts SI: Are there any indications that a public hearing might be called? And if not, what will you do? SG: Im very concerned that, because of the implications of this and the way the subject can be either debunked or quietly silenced by power operators, we may not get a hearing. I am hopeful, though. There are some very good people in Congress and very good former members of Congress helping us who really do understand the implications of this. - 14 of 17 - - UFO News International 33 - But should it not happen, then we have to be prepared as a non-profit research group to put together all of these top-secret witnesses and all the evidence and present it to the public through documentaries, books, and a public press conference so that the subject gets out in an unofficial way. If it isnt done scientifically in a very dignified way, then it simply will not register on the radar scope of the world, and all these top-secret witnesses will be literally risking their lives and careers for nothing. It wouldnt be easy to do. We have no operating funds. The extent of our staff is someone who comes in 10 hours a week to help with office work and the rest of it is totally volunteer. All of us are taking time away from our families, our work, and our careers. I can honestly say that we have the physical evidence, photograp- hic evidence, government documents, and more than 100 top-secret military and intelligence witnesses which, if they could be put together and presented to the public, would constitute a definitive and unambiguous disclosure on this subject. The problem is we dont have the financial means to do it, and if the US Government, through a hearing in the Congress, doesnt allow a vehicle such as that to be created that would have it come out in an official way, then it becomes a very serious problem of how we go about doing it. For more information: contact CSETI, PO Box 15401, Asheville, North Carolina, 28813, USA; Telephone: 704-274-5671; Web site: www.cseti.org. Witnesses Among the witnesses testifying in Washington DC were -------, a former subcontractor in the photo labs of the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas. ----- said she saw one NASA technician air-brush a UFO out of a space satellite photo, and that it was done routinely, according to her colleague. ---------- a lawyer from North Carolina who worked as a trained cryptologist with a Top Secret security clearance in the Pentagon during President Eisenhowers White House term in the 1950s, says he saw material from a downed ET craft and saw apparent ET writing on the material. Lovekin says the President was regularly briefed about the UFO issue. Another witness was a world-renowned astronomer who was present when an apparent extraterrestrial signal was received at the Harvard observatory (SETI) facility. (Source: CSETI) ______ /\ /\ \_\ /_/ \ " / \ _ / \ / - 15 of 17 - - UFO News International 33 - ************************************************************** Web sites ************************************************************** I just received a copy of your e-zine through a friend and have happily subscribed. I wanted to know if you can mention a web site I have developed to your subscribers. http://idt.net/~srimpi19/ufo.html I have created this site to act as a repository of stories from UFO Experiencers. This is a place where experiencers can go and tell their tales without fear of ridicule or shame. It is a free site that I happily maintain. Unfortunately not many people know about it. Any help or comments you can give would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again, and I look forward to your next e-zine. Steven Rimpici UFO Experiencer Support _____ Hello Interested People! Please go to the Society of Operating Cameramen Home Page to see the latest news on the Alien Autopsy! http://www.soc.org/alienautopsy.html There you will find an in depth report weighing the pros and cons of the film. Myself and others helped with the report and it turned out pretty good. Pass the word around please. The stories not yet dead!!! Thx, Mark L. Center http://www.uforeport.com ************************************************************** You can use UFO News International articles ************************************************************** . Make a selection from this issue for your web site. . Redistribute articles in your owns newsletter or Bulletin Board System. - 16 of 17 - - UFO News International 33 - Conditions: . Please give credit to UFO News International and, if relevant, to the original source. . Articles may not be used for the express purpose of baseless debunking. Baseless debunking can be defined as attacking the validity of a report without including substantial grounds for the attack. Violations of this condition will immediately be followed by exposure on the main Internet UFO discussion forums. ************************************************************** Editor's notes: UFO News International welcomes: . reports, experiences, analyses and commentaries Anonimity will be provided if needed. All contributions to this newsletter must be in English. Grammar and spelling need not be perfect. In case of a change in your e-mail address, please notify me in advance, so that you can continue to receive UFOPals. Readers are encouraged to invite their friends, acquaintances and colleagues to subscribe to this newsletter. ______ /\ /\ \_\ /_/ \ " / \ _ / \ / ************************************************************** Date: December 12, 1997=FF Editor: Henny van der Pluijm Correspondents: Barry Chamish (Israel) Mike Stahl (Australia) UFOIC, http://www.ufoic.com, hosts: Henny van der Pluijm's UFO FAQ: http://www.ufoic.com/faq and the UNI archive: http://www.ufoic.com/faq/ufopals Personal website: http://www.worldonline.nl/~hvdp E=A9mail: hvdp@worldonline.nl Direct subscribers: 255 Redistributors: Alien Research (90), Project Watchfire BBS, NUN BBS Network Estimated readership: 14,000 ______________________________________________________________ (C) Henny van der Pluijm, 1997. ______________________________________________________________ =FF __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 15 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:10:55 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:12:33 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:35:33 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:42:04 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >> It's not up to me, you, or anyone -- other than Corso and/or >> Birnes -- to provide documentation for their claims. > Why not?...Wouldn't you be intersted in legitimate documentation > irrespective of who dug it up? Sure, I'd be interested in legitimate documentation. But I'd much rather see it from the person making the claims. If you want to go dig it up, knock your lights out. > What excuses? Sorry, you weren't making excuses, I was ranting. > This discussion has > nothing to do with Corso's UFO claims or Roswell or > backengineering or anything else, this discussion is about his > military record. If you have some information or evidence that > casts doubt on specific aspects of his military record than I > reccommend you post it. I doubt I have seen anything different than you. > According to his FOIA military record his claims of heading the > FTD for 2 years were overstated and that he actually held this > position for only 90 days. So what do you think about that? > This what I'm talking about...do you have other evidence of this > type? Nope. > Flaws in Corso's UFO and backengineering claims are a dime a > dozen and exist everywhere you look but using the FOIA to attempt > to verify or refute Corso's alien claims is a laughable concept. > The FOIA's usefulness in this capacity will provide evidence to > either support or refute his more terrestrial claims, service > record, and credentials. There is no need to use FOIA to verify the people/place claims in the book. That information is fairly accessible in libraries with a good newspaper archive and some of it is even disprovable by doing searches on the web. Rebecca Search for other documents to/from: jared | xiannekei ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [ Next Message | Previous Message | This Day's Messages ] [ This Month's Index | UFO UpDates Main Index | MUFON Ontario ] UFO UpDates - Toronto - updates@globalserve.net Operated by Errol Bruce-Knapp - ++ 416-696-0145 A Hand-Operated E-Mail Subscription Service for the Study of UFO Related Phenomena. To subscribe please send your first and last name to updates@globalserve.net Message submissions should be sent to the same address. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [ UFO Topics | UFO People | Ufomind What's New | Ufomind Top Level ] To preserve this message for future reference... Link it to the appropriate Ufologist or UFO Topic page. Any message not linked to one of those pages may be deleted eventually. Archived as a public service by Area 51 Research Center which is not responsible for content. Software by Glenn Campbell. Technical contact: webmaster@ufomind.com Financial support for this web server is provided by the Research Center Catalog. Search for other documents from or mentioning: xiannekei | jared |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 15 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Cors From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:56:15 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:08:48 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Cors >Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:42:31 +0100 (MET) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso <massive snip> >Dennis, >Can you spell 'irrelevant'? <snip> >Or 'priorities'? >Henny Sure can, Henny, what's the point? I went straight to the horses's mouth, or at least one of the horses' mouths, and posted what he told me. What's irrelevant about that? If you find it irrelevant, that's your problem. And what do you pretend to mean by "priorities"? Can you spell 'non sequitur'? Or 'meaningless comments'? If you've got something to say, say it. Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 15 Re: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release From: Ashley Rye <ashleyry@netcomuk.co.uk> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:31:17 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:28:43 -0500 Subject: Re: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release At 17:58 13/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Rob Gates] >Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:17:00 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release > >In a message dated 97-12-13 07:51:39 EST, you write: > > >> From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) >> To: updates@globalserve.net >> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:32:24 +0200 >> Subject: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release > >> Published on American Computer Company's website December 7. >> URL: > >> http://www.American-Computer.com/Transcap.htm > > >> AMERICAN COMPUTER COMPANY unearths previously unknown electronic >> device it claims it obtained by analyzing notes about Alien >> Artifact examined by Bell Labs 50 years ago, notes that were sold >> ACC by an unnamed source... > >Same ACC crap being dissiminated by "unnamed source.." we have >been hearing about for months -- and as usual comes from unnamed >sources. > >Its called rumor mongering on the internet. > >Isn't it convient that all this trash comes out just before ACC's >alleged public stock offerings? > >Cheers, >Robert If there is any substance at all in ACC's recent statement, Robert, you may have to modify your views in the wake of forthcoming events, if not actually swallow your words whole... time will clarify your assumption that all this talk is some kind of elaborate sales pitch, or something else. If it's hype, then they have gone to a vast amount of trouble to concoct all these elaborate stories, putting themselves in a delicate, expensive legal position, potentially undermining their credibility in the eyes of customers and competitors merely in order to attract, what, publicity? is this logical? Is it necessary to get involved in legal battles with the Air Force to promote sales? Are you implying that the break-in and death threats are further fabrications, and that the transcapacitor will have no influence on the future of computer technology, since it doesn't exist? Perhaps we might wait and see for ourselves before agreeing with your statements unconditionally. Ash Visit Ash's Mural Gallery at: http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~ashleyry/home.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 15 Ros... uh... _that_ place in the desert From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:12:40 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:31:36 -0500 Subject: Ros... uh... _that_ place in the desert >From "Amarillo Globe-News". URL: http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/121497/LG3046.001.shtml Web posted Sunday, December 14, 1997 Town considers licensing name The Associated Press ROSWELL (AP) - The mere mention of Roswell is enough to conjure up images of aliens and crashed UFOs. Mayor Tom Jennings is willing to bank on it. After cashing in earlier this year on the 50th anniversary of the purported crash of an alien spacecraft in the nearby desert, the City Council is now considering registering "Roswell, New Mexico" as a global trademark. "Before the crash, Roswell was just another dusty town in southern New Mexico," Jennings said. "But now, we have worldwide name recognition, and we think the town should capitalize on this phenomenon." An agent from a Los Angeles-based licensing company, NRP Productions, posed the idea in October. The agent, Neil Russell, said his company would pay the $100,000 registration fees to license the city's name and seal in exchange for a third of the profits. If the plan is approved, every time "Roswell, New Mexico" is used in a movie or a book, the city would be entitled to royalties. Jennings said he expects a council vote sometime in January. "There have been books, posters and even a movie made about Roswell that was filmed in the Arizona desert," "We don't want to be greedy, but we do want to ensure accuracy in the usage of Roswell products," Jennings said.More than 40,000 people trekked to Roswell in July for the weeklong anniversary bash that featured a memorial service for the dead aliens and a crash-and-burn parade of home-built spaceships. Roswell residents secretly smile at their odd fame, so there is no reason the city 200 miles southeast of Albuquerque shouldn't try to make a buck off its reputation, much as Hollywood and New York have, Jennings says. "Shoot - everybody is making a profit off of aliens right now but us." A profit is not guaranteed, though. In California, the Beverly Hills Chamber of Commerce tried to trademark its name. But officials decided it was too costly and inconvenient to regulate its use, said Don Oblander, the city's finance director. "The thing that we've learned is that for a geographical name, we can't really prevent someone from using it," Oblander said. The city, still looking for a way to cash in on its mystique, opted to license the Beverly Hills shield instead. The trademarked shield, a piece of art that sits on the edge of town, bagged the city about $10,000 in just a few months, Oblander says. "The shield was flashed for less than three seconds in a Wendy's television ad. That made up for about a third of those earnings," Oblander said. "We expect that there could be revenues of $100,000 over the year or more." Some global trademarks, such as Marlboro, rake in billions of dollars every year simply on name recognition, says Daniel Kimbell, a trademark attorney in Glendale, Calif. "People will always associate the product with the name. Like Beverly Hills is always identified with a class of wealth," Kimbell said. "The city of Hollywood, a name known all over the world, makes money on everything from Hollywood coffee to condoms," he said. Jennings, the Roswell mayor, said he would spend royalties from licensing - which NRP estimates at more than $50,000 a year - to create a community foundation benefiting children. While he doesn't think the UFO craze will pass anytime soon, Jennings said some "real evidence" from the contestable crash could increase profits dramatically. "I'm not sure anyone knows for sure what really happened in that desert 50 years ago, but something happened," he said. "If we could find an artifact that backs up the story we'd really be in business." =A9 1997 Amarillo Globe-News
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 15 Darlington's Area 51 Book Reviewed From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:23:37 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:33:20 -0500 Subject: Darlington's Area 51 Book Reviewed Found at: http://www.sfgate.com:80/cgi-bin/examiner/article.cgi?year=3D1997&month=3D12 &day=3D14&article=3DTRAVEL9564.dtl Sunday, Dec. 14, 1997 =B7 Page T 8 =A91997 San Francisco Examiner Unknown UFO site remains so Linda Watanabe McFerrin SPECIAL TO THE EXAMINER IN NEVADA, not far from the California border and right next door to the Nevada Test Site where the U.S. government has been experimenting with nuclear bombs since 1951, on a remote plain ringed by parched mountains, lies the best-kept, widely known, top-secret spot in the world. To insiders it is "Watertown Strip," or "the Ranch. " Aircraft buffs, referring to the call sign of its control tower or its off-limits status on aeronautical maps, call it "Dreamland" or "the Box." Most of us know it as Area 51, the appellation assigned to it on government documents. The New York Times once described it as a base so secret that it didn't exist. To some "ufologists" it is a turn-out on the extraterrestrial highway, an alien rest stop and spaceship garage. Regardless of what it's called, this military installation sequestered in America's outback - it does not appear on U.S. Geological Survey maps - has been cloaked throughout its 46-year history in the kind of secrecy that invites investigation, and that is just what writer David Darlington does in Area 51: The Dreamland Chronicles (Henry Holt and Company, Inc., 281 pages, $25.00). Darlington's informants - desert denizens, road warriors, con artists and self-proclaimed extraterrestrials - are a colorful lot, and their stories about alien abductions, government conspiracies and interstellar travel rival the best from the Twilight Zone. Darlington walks among them with heroic impartiality on his sober and ultimately sobering prowl of Dreamland's dramatic periphery. When he digs deeper, the stories get wilder. Witnesses report on aliens called "little grays," saucers propelled by elements that do not exist in this solar system, the use of humans as guinea pigs and New World Order conspiracies. There are tales about back-engineering captive flying saucers, interactions with aliens, neighbors from Alpha Reticuli and Invisible Government Obedient Robotons (IGORS) created in clandestine government Frankenstein works. On the other hand, the summary withdrawal of 89,000 acres of public land from public access, the untold billions spent yearly on Black Budget (secretly funded) intelligence and defense projects, the spy planes, stealth fighters, secret shuttles, security oaths and workers exposed to toxic waste without recourse - all verifiable fact - read a great deal like science fiction. There's so much deceit and misrepresentation around Area 51 that the line between myth and reality is a blur. In this frighteningly distorted world even Darlington seems to occasionally lose perspective. At one point, lured to the Luxor casino in Las Vegas and confronted with the spectacle of Americans smoking, drinking, eating and gambling to excess, he wonders irritably if visitors to this planet might not find that earthly society at the end of the century was nothing more than a mass migration of oversized but pea-brained organisms, waddling about in T-shirts and shorts. The only regrettable thing about his chronicle is that Darlington never really penetrates Area 51's covert operations. The electric fences, the false trails, the "cammo" dudes, the smoke screens and very real fears keep him forever circling about the installation's perimeter. This leaves the reader longing, in the midst of all of this data, for the one thing that Darlington is unable to unearth - a truly believable witness. (snipped) Linda Watanabe McFerrin is a Bay Area poet, novelist and travel writer whose work appears frequently in the Examiner Travel Section. Bookings appears the second Sunday of each month. Sunday Magazine Travel Real Estate Epicure Habitat Search Feedback
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 15 Mars Exploration Captures The US Imagination From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:41:35 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:34:36 -0500 Subject: Mars Exploration Captures The US Imagination Mars exploration captures the US imagination Agence France-Presse Sun, Dec 14 1997 WASHINGTON, Dec 14 (AFP) - The mythical "red planet" returned to intrigue Americans this year as two probes renewed Martian exploration, fueling hopes of finding a trace of life on the planet and encouraging Hollywood's fascination with "little green men." On July 4, the US Independence Day, the Mars Pathfinder landed in the Ares Vallis plain with great pomp, reviving the Mars craze that infatuates both the scientific world and the general public. Two months later, on September 11, a second probe, the Mars Global Surveyor (MGS), began its orbit around the planet. "We enter in the second era of the exploration of Mars," declared NASA official Wesley Huntress. For the past 21 years, since the dramatic landings of the US Viking probes, Mars has not been in the spotlight of NASA research. However, with the arrival of the Pathfinder and its Sojourner rover, mankind again set foot on another planet and began receiving detailed data on the Martian environment. Computer users eagerly sought information about the mission on the Internet, where NASA's 25 websites received some 100 million "hits" on the day after the landing. And the enthusiasm didn't fade in the following weeks. The two probes have opened new doors to exploration of Mars, providing scientists with evidence of torrential floods in the Ares Vallis some three billion years ago and of volcanic activity on a much lerger scale than previously thought. With its discovery of the presence of clouds, detection of large and rapid temperature changes, samples of Martian sand and more than 16,000 photographs, the probe more than lived up to NASA's expectations before it became silent at the end of October. Interest then centered on the MGS, which will begin mapping the surface of the planet next year, providing a complete topographical map, studying the planet's magnetic field, analyzing its atmosphere and determining the composition and distribution of minerals, rocks and ice on the planet's surface. "We can say hello Mars, we are here to stay, and we are here to stay for a long, long time," mission chief Glenn Cunningham told reporters at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California when the probe reached the planet. The US team has seven missions to Mars scheduled between now and 2005 and hopes to send an astronaut to Mars in 2014 who would perhaps gain new insight to the mystery of life on Mars. In the meantime, some 23 new studies are under way broadening the search for traces of past life by analyzing Martian rocks. Most of the studies are being conducted on the Martian meteorite Allan Hills 84,001. From that rockm, a US team two years ago detected the presence of elements supporting the theory that biological activity once took place on the Mars. Hollywood, naturally, cannot resist renewed attention on extraterrestrial life. Directors responded to the alien craze with two hit movies -- "Men In Black," in which two secret government agents confront the arrival of thousands of extraterrestrials, and "Contact," with Jodie Foster playing a scientist encountering mysterious visitors. In addition, for hardcore fans of flying saucers, Roswell, a small town in New Mexico, celebrated the 50th anniversary of the legend which created its worldwide reputation: the infamous crash of a UFO and its mysterious alien pilots. No matter that the US government again denied the UFO landing. gcv/jcb/jsr (Copyright 1997) Copyright 1997, Agence France-Presse. All rights reserved. Republication and redistribution of Agence France-Presse content is expressly pr ohibited without the prior written consent of Agence France-Presse. Agence France-Presse shall not be liable for errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon. =BF
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 15 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:45:48 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:36:04 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:12:59 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Have you ever heard of a little thing called an "advance"? It's >money a publisher pays *prior* to publication. Strieber got a >million for Communion, if memory serves, John Mack got something >like $250,000 for his abduction book, Hopkins over $100,000 for >Witnessed. Nick Pope was well rewarded for both of his books. Ed >Walters, I believe, picked up something like a $200,000 advance >for his first UFO book, along with an additional $200,000 for >mini-series rights. >Corso's publisher "gambled" on the free publicity the Roswell >anniversary provided Corso's book, but you can be damn sure that >serious cash changed hands prior to publication of the book. >Birnes is a high-concept producer, meaning that he packages >books; he probably signed a two or three book deal with the >publisher (remember the promised Corso "memoirs" about the >Kennedy assassination?). >It's safe to say that the advance for The Day After Roswell was >at least $100,000 and could very easily have been closer to >$200,000, based on similar projects. It's also possible that >movie rights had already been sold prior to publication, possibly >for a similar amount. The book is in its sixth printing, I >believe, and was briefly on the NY Times bestseller list -- and >we haven't yet seen the paperback. Corso would be getting 50% of >the above -- at the very least -- if not 75 to 80%, unless Birnes >completely bamboozled him. Dennis, Having written a number of books and counting many well-known authors in my circle of friends, I should point out that the numbers announced in press releases are usually grossly inflated. Creative bookkeeping always seems to apply in these matters, and I have yet to talk to an author who claims to have actually received the stated advance amounts. Even if the contract specifies $ XXXX for the advance, there always seems to be a bunch of fine print at the end of the contract allowing all sorts of things to be deducted from the advance. Then there is the little question of the publisher actually even paying the advance. I know quite a few authors whose contracts specified pretty goodly amounts for the advance but never actually saw a penny of it. So I always take these claims of the amounts authors get/got with several big grains of salt. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 15 PROJECT-1947: FUFOR Party From: Jan Aldrich <jan@CYBERZONE.NET> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:28:31 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:12:08 -0500 Subject: PROJECT-1947: FUFOR Party Greetings List I hopped down to Washington, D. C. to basically attend this party. I had hoped to get some work done in the Library of Congress, but that was the slow pre-holiday schedule meant that some of the least experienced pages were pull items from the repository. So in the short time I was there, I found almost nothing. Perhaps I should have stayed over. A party is not the place to discuss some of the issues that people wanted me to bring up. In any case there was some news and items of interest. Richard Hall is stepping down as Chairman of the Fund at the end of this year. Don Berliner will be the new chairman. The recipient of the Isabel Davis Award was announced to the attendees. However, since he has not been official informed, public announcement will have to wait. William B. Weitzel, the former Chairman of NICAP Pennsylvania Investigative Subcommittee #1 during the early 1960s, talked about his investigation of Portage County UFO "chase," (also known as the Spaur/Neff chase or the Revenna, Ohio case.) In a very understated presentation Bill Weitzel summarized this cases and some of the extensive investigations that NICAP conducted. The huge case file was personally hand carried to the Condon Committee by Richard Hall. The case was among the committee's papers, but was not treated in any detail in the finally Condon report. This case ruined Dale Spaur's career and his life. He did a straight reporting job of what he had seen. He hadn't claimed that he saw a spaceship or anything like that. The Air Force's explanation by Maj (later Colonel) Quintanilla of a satellite and Venus as a cause for this case sealed Spaur's fate. Quintanilla ignored the fact that Spaur picked out Venus during and after the sighting and that during the chase the object was seen in different parts of the sky. Defense lawyers, after the USAF explanation became public, used this to ridicule Spuar when he gave testimony. It became impossible for him to keep his job. Susan Swiatek showed me some of the artwork she had prepared for the second volume of the UFO Evidence. How an artist visualizes the witnesses' descriptions is very interesting. Even when there is immediate feed back from a witness, it is sometimes difficult to get any kind of representative idea of what the witness saw. The original drawing Liz Coleson did of the High Point, North Carolina sighting July 1947 was very different from the drawing that the witness made when he reported the sighting in a first hand account. Liz kindly redid this drawing for my preliminary report. I had previously thought that the High Point sighting had been a distorted account of a meteor after reading the newspaper account. However, after seeing the witness' report form, drawing, and first hand account, it became quite obvious that whatever was involved it was definitely not a meteor. Susan's experiences with this aspect were very interesting. Many artists who illustrate UFO sightings give the prominent place to the witnesses or other features of the sighting and the UFO itself becomes just a part of the backdrop. Rob Swiatek brought along a copy of the Fund's latest publication. It will surely not be a best seller, but it will surely be useful to the serious researcher. "Index to the Case Files of Project Blue Book" is a printout of the UFO CAT entries of the Project Blue Book cases. There are entries on 14,613 cases in the Project Blue Book files. The breakdown is 14,613 Gross case 1,558 "For information only" cases 272 Duplicates 12,752 Net cases Interestingly enough in the original files of Project Blue Book which I inspected for 1947-1949, there are a number of files which were not microfilmed or indexed. These cases generally involved letters or report forms submitted years afterwards which seemed to just be quickly stashed in the Blue Book files probably on their transfer to Maxwell or the Archives. On a lighter note Bruce Maccabbee provided music with his electric organ. Dick Hall said this was about the best turn out they had in ten years. Best regards, Best -- Jan Aldrich Project 1947 http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 15 Through the walls tests [was Re: Jacobs on From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:42:48 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:14:25 -0500 Subject: Through the walls tests [was Re: Jacobs on > From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, on 12/13/97 11:24 AM: > From: jpeterson@polaristel.net [Candy Peterson] > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 21:54:21 PST > Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Some of the tests for magnetic properties, radiation, or chemical > changes in the paints might not be so involved. But how practical > would it be to remove whole sections of window, framing, drywall, > siding, hardware, and so on for extensive testing -- including > those pesky experimental controls from elsewhere in the building? I suspect that large sections wouldn't be needed, but some careful thought would have to be given as to how to obtain samples (for instance extracting nails from a window frame without using a metallic tool) without disturbing exactly the effect one is trying to measure. ------ Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at http://www.geocities.com/~mcashman - Original digital art, writing, and UFO research - Author of SF novels available at... http://www.infohaus.com/access/by-seller/The_Temporal_Doorway_Storefront ------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 15 PROJECT-1947: Strange Report from the 1957 Flap From: Jan Aldrich <jan@CYBERZONE.NET> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:36:35 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:46:32 -0500 Subject: PROJECT-1947: Strange Report from the 1957 Flap Greetings List, Loren Gross called me Sunday, and we talked about his current research. He is working on the November 1957 flap. Here is the a strange report from Midland the (Texas) REPORTER-TELEGRAM, 8 November 1957. Any further information would be most welcome. 'Glowing Like Red Lights Shining on It'-- Woman's Car Hits "Whatnik' A lone woman motorist reported to police Friday she crashed through a mysterious, brilliantly lighted object shortly after 2 a. m. on a deserted stretch of highway 30 miles southeast of Midland in Glasscock County. "Two men ran from it just as I reached the object and it collapsed," reported Mr. Edith Joyce Wilson of San Angelo, almost hysterical as she reached Midland. "A few seconds later something I guess it was an automobile, but it had a brilliant red light pulled in behind me and chased me four or five miles." Glasscorck Sheriff Buster Cox investigated immediately with Deputy Otto Dozler. "We searched the entire area from 2:30 until about 4:30 but we couldn't find a trace of anything," he reported. Mrs. Wilson insisted she had seen and hit something but admitted it might have been someone playing a prank in the light of widespread reports of mysterious objects. "It was such a nice night, I was driving along enjoying the radio and I msut have been five miles this side of Garden City," she said. "I had my lights dim and suddenly I saw something in front of me that looked like...well, I don't know what it looked like. "It was glowing red like red lights were shining on it. Just as I reached it, it collapsed in front of me and I felt my car hit something. "Two men ran from it, one on each side of the road. At first I thought I had hit someone as it went under my car, but I guess I didn't. I don't think I would have stopped anyway. "Immediately, I saw something pull onto the road behing me, with a brilliant red light shining through my rear window. "I've been travelling 25 years and I've ever been held up at the point of a gun. But I never had anything scare me half as much as this did." She said she drove more than 85 miles an hour before the vehicle behind her apparently gave up the chase. She said the object wasn't as big as a house "but it probably looked twice as big as it really was, I was so scared." * * * * Earlier two people had used a hoax balloon on the highway between Dallas and Fort Worth. The caused a traffic jam in dangerous highway conditions. The police were quite angry, however such considerations of danger or displeasure of the authorities seldom deter hoaxers. The red light on a vehicle would, at the time, be against the law as only emergency vehicles could be so outfitted. The 1957 flap contained more than its share of Oz factor sightings. We would like to get a handle on at least one. Best regards, -- Jan Aldrich Project 1947 http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 15 SpaceViews Update -- 1997 December 15 From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:45:06 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:49:12 -0500 Subject: SpaceViews Update -- 1997 December 15 Greetings everyone! Below is a forwarded message from SpaceViews Update about the minicomets the size of a house that were reported to be hitting the Earth at a rate of 10 to 20 a minute. Also, this Friday will mark the 25th anniversary of the last beings who came to Earth from another world (see below). It has been that long, eh? Nick Balaskas ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:34:49 -0500 (EST) From: SpaceViews-approval@nss.org To: undisclosed-recipients: Subject: SpaceViews Update -- 1997 December 15 S P A C E V I E W S U P D A T E 1997 December 15 http://www.seds.org/spaceviews/971215/ <snip> Small Comet Theory Rebutted A theory that the Earth is pelted with thousands of house-sized comets each day was the subject of a number of rebuttals presented at a conference last week, while the leading proponent of the theory provided new evidence which he says further supports his explanation. A series of independent papers by researchers at the University of Arizona, University of Washington, and NASA Marshall Space Flight Center presented at the American Geophysical Union (AGU) meeting in San Francisco all found evidence for small comets lacking, and believed that the original evidence was instrumental error. At an AGU meeting in May Louis Frank of the University of Iowa presented images of the Earth from the Polar spacecraft which showed black specks at ultraviolet wavelengths. Frank explained the specks as small comets, weighing 20 to 40 tons, breaking up in the Earth's upper atmosphere. Research by George Parks, a geophysicist at the University of Washington, points to a different explanation. Parks said other images taken from the camera, including some taken in a lab on Earth before launch, show the same black specks, leading him to believe that the spots are just instrument noise. The same conclusions were found by James Spann of the Marshall Space Flight Center. Spann compared the black dots to the random noise seen in other instruments that use image intensifiers, including night-vision goggles. Three different studies by University of Arizona scientists searched for additional evidence for small comets, but failed to find any. Bashar Rizk and Alex J. Dessler found that if small comets hit the Earth's atmosphere at the rate predicted by Frank, they would create clouds of ice and dust that would be easily visible as one of the brightest objects in the sky. "The two-hour periods after sunset and before sunrise ought to produce the most spectacular sightings -- intermittent punctuations of bright, rapidly moving points of light," they said, but noted, "Where are they? We should see them." Timothy D. Swindle and David A. Kring noted that the elemental composition of small comets, had they struck the Earth at the same rate throughout its history, would have given the planet 500 times as much krypton and 30,000 times as much argon as found today. Jennifer A. Grier and Alfred S. McEwen estimated that small comets should strike the Moon every nine minutes, leaving behind a crater at least 50 meters (165 ft.) in diameter. Images of the Moon from the Apollo missions and the 1994 Clementine spacecraft do not show the hundreds of thousands of craters that should form every year. Despite the mounting evidence against the small comet theory, Frank held firm to the theory and presented new evidence to support it at the conference. In what Frank dubbed the "ultimate" test of his explanation, he and John Sigwarth compared data taken by Polar at low altitudes -- 3 to 5 Earth radii (19,100-31,850 km) above the surface, to data taken the same day at high altitudes, 5 to 8 radii (31,580- 50,960 km) high. The high altitude data showed an 80 percent drop in dark spots, or "holes", seen in the data. "This result is a marvelous confirmation of the reality of atmospheric holes," Frank said, claiming that the spots would be more visible at lower altitudes, but should not vary in frequency if they were just instrument noise. Frank called the instrument noise explanations "nonsense" at a press conference. Frank, who originally proposed the small comet theory in 1986 based on data from the Dynamics Explorer 1 satellite, said resistance to his theory has been strong. "Despite all of the evidence that the atmospheric holes were a geophysical phenomenon and not an artifact of the camera, many members of the scientific community refused to accept the reality of the atmospheric holes because of the immense implications of the large fluxes of small comets in the vicinity of our planet." <snip> December 19 25th anniversary of the splashdown of Apollo 17, marking the end of the Apollo program Search for other documents from or mentioning: nikolaos |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 15 ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:54:21 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:50:35 -0500 Subject: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:31:17 +0000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Ashley Rye <ashleyry@netcomuk.co.uk> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release >If there is any substance at all in ACC's recent statement, >Robert, you may have to modify your views in the wake of >forthcoming events, if not actually swallow your words whole... >time will clarify your assumption that all this talk is some kind >of elaborate sales pitch, or something else. If it's hype, then >they have gone to a vast amount of trouble to concoct all these >elaborate stories, putting themselves in a delicate, expensive >legal position, potentially undermining their credibility in the >eyes of customers and competitors merely in order to attract, >what, publicity? is this logical? Is it necessary to get >involved in legal battles with the Air Force to promote sales? >Are you implying that the break-in and death threats are further >fabrications, and that the transcapacitor will have no influence >on the future of computer technology, since it doesn't exist? >Perhaps we might wait and see for ourselves before agreeing with >your statements unconditionally. >Ash One has to question how long we are expected to wait for documentation to back up the claims that ACC continues to make. In answer to some of your questions, I have seen far more complicated schemes used to attract customers, and I would suspext that ACC's attornies have kept them from making any claims that would get them into legal trouble. If police reports exist then the break-in and death threats could be verified, but it would also be interesting to hear the opinion of the authorities as to these events. The T-Cap, as defined by ACC, would have a tremendous influence on the computer industry if it exists. On the other hand, we only know if it because of a statement written by a publicity agent, not because of an announcement by ACC to the industry, which would be a normal first step. I would like to believe, but would also like to have a reason to believe. So far, those reasons have become very elusive.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 15 New Energy Researcher Dies From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:26:17 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:47:54 -0500 Subject: New Energy Researcher Dies We have now lost four new energy researchers in the past year: Stefan Marinov Suicide Brian DePalma Gastrointestional disease Chris Tinsley Coronary thrombosis And now I have learned that Dr. Paul W. Brown, inventor of the resonant nuclear generator (patent #4,835,433) was killed by an explosion in his lab last week. Overunity energy research is rapidly becoming a most hazardous profession. Terry
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 15 Re: Through the walls tests From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:32:14 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:25:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Through the walls tests >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >Subject: re: UFO UpDate: Through the walls tests >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:42:48 -0800 >> From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, on 12/13/97 >>11:24 AM: >> From: jpeterson@polaristel.net [Candy Peterson] >> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 21:54:21 PST >> Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> Some of the tests for magnetic properties, radiation, or chemical >> changes in the paints might not be so involved. But how practical >> would it be to remove whole sections of window, framing, drywall, >> siding, hardware, and so on for extensive testing -- including >> those pesky experimental controls from elsewhere in the building? >I suspect that large sections wouldn't be needed, but some >careful thought would have to be given as to how to obtain >samples (for instance extracting nails from a window frame >without using a metallic tool) without disturbing exactly the >effect one is trying to measure. >------ >Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at Hi Mark, All, A few years ago I invited the NOVA people to come out to the house and check for "anomolies" (magnetic and otherwise) but they never took me up on it. I own my own home. If -anyone- is willing to actually perform -any- of these tests for changes in physical properties I again volunteer my home. I've spent my whole life in here painting and putting up sheetrock anyway so a couple of more pieces won't mean a thing to me. As long as the testing is conducted by someone 'reputable' who is willing to publicly publish the results, you can put me on the volunteer list. Let's see how many takers come breaking down my door this time! <G> John Velez Search for other documents from or mentioning: jvif | mcashman |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 15 CORSO From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:21:16 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:23:07 -0500 Subject: CORSO Dear colleague, Is there any way that you can help me locate and address, phone, fax or e-mail for Colonel Philip J. Corso. I'm in the process of setting up some speakers for a UFO conference in the UK and we would like to invite Colonel Corso. Any assistance with this request would be greatly appreciated. Yours Sincerely, Philip Mantle.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 15 BWW Media Alert 971212 From: BufoCalvin <BufoCalvin@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:14:08 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:37:54 -0500 Subject: BWW Media Alert 971212 Bufo Calvin P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com Website: http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made to http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin It is good etiquette to check with strangers before you e-mail them something. If you forward this, please make sure it is clear that you are forwarding it). This one was sent on Friday, and has not delivered yet, so I'm re-trying it. My apologies if you get it twice...new server and all, you know. December 12, 1997 Well, this is the first real sending with the new server, which ought to improve things. One note: the only e-mail where you can expect to reach me in a reasonable amount of time is the one in the header: bufocalvin@aol.com. I use some others, but only really for out-going and don't check them very often. This note will be short: crushed for time as usual. Been especially busy lately, and I have an article I really want to get written this week... ACTN (Action?) is running UFOS: ABOVE AND BEYOND (hosted by James Doohan) at 5 AM, 7PM on Saturday, and 4:30 PM on Sunday. The Discovery Channel has INSIDE AREA 51 on Sunday at 10:00 PM and Monday at 2:00 AM. Also, the cryptozoology series INTO THE UNKNOWN is covering the Giant Squid on Thursday at 9:00 PM and Friday at 1:00 AM. The History Channel has a Roswell special on Sunday at 8:00 PM and Monday at Midnight (Sunday night). It's called: ROSWELL: AN ALIEN OBSESSION. MTV has ABDUCTED! (which I've heard is played for laughs) at 11:00 AM on Tuesday. Well, that's all I can do right now...maybe more later this week. ____________________________ You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com. You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, t he week before. _____________________________ **OPUS is the Organization for Paranormal Understanding and Support. I am an Executive Boardmember, and Director of the OPUS Educational Institute. OPUS encourages its officers and Network Associates to express their own opinions: however, it is important to note that I do not speak for OPUS in this piece or others presented under my own name. ______________________________ http://members.aol.com/weirdware/books.html"Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Books I'm very excited about this! Some of you know, I ran a bookstore for years, and it has always been a love of mine. I get asked often to recommend books(I do write reviews for several publications) on these topics, and now I can do it and actually give you a source for them at the same time! This is being done in association with Amazon.com, which has an outstanding reputation for the five "S"s of internet shopping: selection, searchability, service, savings, and security. If there is any specific book you want (or topic in which you are interested), let me know and I will do the research and e-mail you a link you can use to check it out more (and order it if you want). I will be linking to books within the Media Alert, to make it more efficient for you. If you click on the link, you will be sent to that title on Amazon. You do =not= have to buy it at that point! You may, but the option is yours.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 15 Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:20:08 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:39:22 -0500 Subject: Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? > From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> > Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:12:39 -0600 (CST) > Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:14:47 -0500 > Subject: Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? > In my opinion, too. In the meantime, can you spell publicity ploy > to sell computers? I didn't think so. This is conjecture Dennis. After looking into this business with ACC directly I came out of it real dubious about what is actually going in Jack Shulman's mind and his zealous dedication to the "alien transistor" theory. After my discussions with the man there is no question in my mind that he is convinced that what he is doing is grounded in reality, far fetched as it may be. Shulman probably understands that he is alone in this process and should not expect any assistance from the UFO community as this crusade is truly his own. People like Ed Wang and Bob Wolf have done nothing but drag Shulman into discredit with their wild conspiratorial claims, some of which ended up in my e-mail box. A member of the FUFOR board confirmed to me directly that Shulman's meeting with members of the DOD, Air Force, lawyers and security personnel at Princeton did in fact take place. After spending years in the computer industry I can think of no better way to injure a computer company's reputation and threaten it's future beyond what ACC has done here. I do not believe Shulman did this as a marketing ploy. but even so, I don't think this whole alien transistor circus will ever amount to anything. Jared.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 15 Re: Mars Exploration Captures The US Imagination From: troodon@netnitco.net [David Orr] Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:22:22 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:42:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Mars Exploration Captures The US Imagination >From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:41:35 +0200 >Subject: AFP: Mars Exploration Captures The US Imagination >Mars exploration captures the US imagination >Agence France-Presse >Sun, Dec 14 1997 >WASHINGTON, Dec 14 (AFP) - The mythical "red planet" returned to >intrigue Americans this year as two probes renewed Martian exploration, >fueling hopes of finding a trace of life on the planet and encouraging >Hollywood's fascination with "little green men." <snip> Articles like this one just go to prove that The McDaniel report should be required reading. For everyone. Good fortune, safe travels David Orr Push the button, Frank. ******************************** TRANSMISSION ENDED. ********************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 15 Re: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release From: Ufojoe1 <Ufojoe1@aol.com> [Joe Murgia] Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:33:43 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:50:15 -0500 Subject: Re: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release I couldn't have said it better Ash! It's amazing how some people in the UFO community are so fast to dismiss ACC's claims. I too am sceptical but will wait for more information to come out before I make a judgement. I wrote to Jeff Rense (Sightings on the Radio) last night and told him that I was getting suspicious of Schulman because of the recent press releases "promoting" the transcapacitor. I thought maybe this could be a ploy to drum up sales like everybody else is starting to think. Jeff responded and said that he has a lot of confidence in Schulman and the "case" is very solid. He also said, and I'm sure we all agree with him, that this could be the biggest break ever in this whole saga. We shall see... Rense also has a lot to lose too. His reputation is on the line and the listeners that he has built up over the last three years are eagerly awaiting the outcome. Keep an open, skeptical mind! Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:33:43 EST To: updates@globalserve.net Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release >> AMERICAN COMPUTER COMPANY unearths previously unknown electronic >> device it claims it obtained by analyzing notes about Alien >> Artifact examined by Bell Labs 50 years ago, notes that were sold >> ACC by an unnamed source... >>Same ACC crap being dissiminated by "unnamed source.." we have >>been hearing about for months -- and as usual comes from unnamed >>sources. >>Its called rumor mongering on the internet. >>Isn't it convient that all this trash comes out just before ACC's >>alleged public stock offerings? >>Cheers, >>Robert >If there is any substance at all in ACC's recent statement, >Robert, you may have to modify your views in the wake of >forthcoming events, if not actually swallow your words whole... >time will clarify your assumption that all this talk is some kind >of elaborate sales pitch, or something else. If it's hype, then >they have gone to a vast amount of trouble to concoct all these >elaborate stories, putting themselves in a delicate, expensive >legal position, potentially undermining their credibility in the >eyes of customers and competitors merely in order to attract, >what, publicity? is this logical? Is it necessary to get >involved in legal battles with the Air Force to promote sales? >Are you implying that the break-in and death threats are further >fabrications, and that the transcapacitor will have no influence >on the future of computer technology, since it doesn't exist? >Perhaps we might wait and see for ourselves before agreeing with >your statements unconditionally. >Ash I couldn't have said it better Ash! It's amazing how some people in the UFO community are so fast to dismiss ACC's claims. I too am sceptical but will wait for more information to come out before I make a judgement. I wrote to Jeff Rense (Sightings on the Radio) last night and told him that I was getting suspicious of Schulman because of the recent press releases "promoting" the transcapacitor. I thought maybe this could be a ploy to drum up sales like everybody else is starting to think. Jeff responded and said that he has a lot of confidence in Schulman and the "case" is very solid. He also said, and I'm sure we all agree with him, that this could be the biggest break ever in this whole saga. We shall see... Rense also has a lot to lose too. His reputation is on the line and the listeners that he has built up over the last three years are eagerly awaiting the outcome. Keep an open, skeptical mind! Joe Murgia Tampa, Florida
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 16 Re: CORSO From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:54:47 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:40:00 -0500 Subject: Re: CORSO >From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:21:16 +0000 >Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:23:07 -0500 >Subject: CORSO > I'm in the process of setting up some speakers for a UFO > conference in the UK and we would like to invite Colonel Corso. I'm only going to rag on you Philip because you are handy: BUT WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS? Is this a conference to promote UFOLOGY as a field that is respectable and to eductate the public? Or is the conference to make money? Couldn't you (and other conference promoters) try to invite people to speak at conferences who just might shed some light on the phenomenon? Or is everyone just interested in spreading bullshit? Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 16 OVNI Brazil: Brasilia's LETTER - From the I World From: Pedro Cunha <pplfilho@nutecnet.com.br> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:49:28 -0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:58:06 -0500 Subject: OVNI Brazil: Brasilia's LETTER - From the I World -- Pedro Cunha ------------------------------------ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1349 ------------------------------------ LISTA OVNI BRASIL Mensagem recebida de Pedro Cunha <pplfilho@nutecnet.com.br> Hello All, The following message is the BRASILIA's LETTER, in Porguese and English Versions! As a result of the I World UFO Forum, the letter was given to the brazilian authorities and is supposed to go to each of the governments of the participating countries from the 5 continents, as well as to the United Nations. A few conferencists participating in the Forum were excluded from the list of the signing ones because they did not agree to sign the letter. They have their reasons. A seguinte mensagem contem a CARTA DE BRASILIA em Portugues e Ingles! Fruto do I Forum Mundial de Ufologia, a carta foi entregue a autoridades locais brasileiras e devera ser entregue =E0s autoridades de cada um dos pa=EDses participantes dos 5 continentes, bem como para as Na=E7=F5es Unidas. Perdoem alguma falta ou erro. Alguns palestrantes participantes foram excluidos da lista de assinaturas, por nao concordarem em assinar a carta. Eles t=EAm suas raz=F5es. Bras=EDlia (DF), Brazil, December 14, 1997. BRASILIA'S LETTER Brazilian and foreign ufologists, from 19 nations of all continents, gathered at the First World UFO Forum, from December 7 to 14,1997, in the World Parliament of Ecumenical Fraternity, Parlamundi of the LGW, in Bras=EDlia, Brazil. The following facts were presented in the presence of the Brazilian air force minister: 1. That it is of general knowledge that the UFO phenomenon, represented by the constant visits of space vehicles to planet Earth, is genuine and been independently confirmed by civilian ufologists and military authorities throughout the world for the last 50 years. 2. That the origin of such phenomenon, already identified as extraterrestrial and whose visiting vehicles come from civilizations technologically far advanced than our own, co-exist with us in the Universe. 3. That such civilizations are in a continuous process of approaching Earth and our planetary civilization. Also, that these civilizations, through their maneuvers, most of the time, display no hostility towards us. 4. That the visits of such extraterrestrial civilizations to Earth have been gradually increasing over recent years, accordinq to statistics provided by national and international statistics, not only in quantity but also in intensity. 5. That it is urgent to establish an offcial programme of knowledge, research and public education of the topic. Through such methods, make it clear to the Brazilian population the ever growing, undeniable and extraterrestrial presence on Earth. Thus, considering the adopted attitudes taken by countries who have already recognized the extent of the problem, such as Chile for example, who a few weeks ago established a UFO investigating committee, we respectfully recommend that the Brazilian Air Force, or some of their departments, adopt a similar approach to formulate an appropriate way to discuss the subject at all levels possible. The Brazilian UFO Community, through this act represented by the national researchers whose names appear below and with the full support of the World UFO Community, represented in this act by the undersigned, wishes to volunteer its knowledge, effort and dedication should our proposal become a reality. As an initial point in this process, something that would represent a positive action taken by our authorit=EDes, the Brazilian UFO Community respectfully requests that your Ministry opens the files about at least two specific and remarkable episodes of our UFO research. (a) The Operation Prato, conducted by the First Air Regional Command (COMAR) of Bel=E9m, Par=E1 State, between September and December 1997, that resulted in a large volume document, complemented with more than 500 photos and many films, the movements of UFOs above the Amazon Region, as was confirmed by Coronel Uyrang=EA Bol=EDvar Soares de Hollanda Lima; and (b) Ufological phenomenon which occurred in May of 1986, over the states of Rio de Janeiro and S=E3o Paulo, among others, when more than 20 unknown flying objects were observed, monitored, recorded on radar and were chased by Air Force jets, according to the Aeronautics Minister at that time, Brigadier Oct=E1vio Moreira Lima. Given that civilian and military authorities have been aware of the UFO situation and have monitored it at different levels over past decades, always in the interest of national security, we believe that this initiative and agreement would solidify the beginning of a meaningful and prosperous partnership. Cordially, BRAZILIAN UFO COMMISSION (BUC) Ademar Jose Gevaerd Centro Brasileiro de Pesquisas de Discos Voadores (CBPDV) Claudeir Covo Instituto Nacional de Investigacao de Fenomenos Aeroespaciais (INFA) Marco Antonio Petit Associa=E7=E3o Fluminense de Estudos Ufologicos (AFEU) Rafael Cury N=FAcleo de Pesquisas Ufologicas (NPU) Reginaldo de Athayde Centro de Pesquisas Ufologicas (CPU) Ubirajara Franco Rodrigues Instituto Ubirajara Rodrigues S.C. (IUR) BRAZILIAN UFO COMMUNITY Ademar Eugenio de Mello (SP) Antonio Faleiro (MG) Cesar Pereira Vanucci (MG) Ana Maria Santos (BA) Basilio Baranoff (SP) Chica Granchi (RJ) Claudio Pamplona (CE) Elias Seixas (RJy Eust=E1quio Andrea Patounas (SC) Haroldo Westendorff (RS) Irene Granchi (RJ) Luciano Stancka e Silva (SP) Oscar Alberto Romero (BA) Ricardo Varela Correa (SP) Romio Cury (PR) Edwaldo Gomes Silva Jr. (SP) Emanuel Paranhos (BA) Geraldo Simao Bichara (MG) Hernan Mostajo (RS) Jose Luiz Lanhoso Martins (PA) Manoel Gilson Mitoso (AM) Pedro Cunha (DF) Roberto Affonso Beck (DF) Wilson Geraldo de Oliveira (DF) INTERNATIONAL UFO COMMUNITY Alejandro Agostinell=EC (Argentina) Alexandr Balandine (Russ=ECa) Barry Chamish (Israel) Budd Hopkins (United States) David Jacobs (United States) Gabor Tarcali (Hungary) Giorgio Bongiovanni (Italy) Graham Birdsall (England) James Courant (United States) Jesse Marcel J=FAnior (United States) Michael Hesemann (Germany) Pablo Villarrubia Mauso (Spain) Roberto Pinotti (San Marino) Boris Chourinov (Russia) Colin Andrews (England) Derrel Sims (United States) G. C. Schellhorn (United States) Gildas Bourdais (France) Glennys Mackay (Australia) Jaime Maussan (Mexico) James Hurtak (United States) M=E1rio Dussuel Jurado (Chile) Maurizio Baiata (Italy) Michael Lindemann (United States) Per Andersen (Denmark) Roberto Banchs (Argentina) Rodrigo Fuenzalida (Chile) Sun-Shi Li (China) Timo Koskeniemi (Finland) Wendelle Stevens (United States) Yvonne Smith (United States) Salutations. Bras=EDlia (DF), Brasil,14 de dezembro de 1997 CARTA DE BRASILIA Os uf=F3logos brasileiros e estrangeiros, de 19 na=E7=F5es, de todos os continentes, reunidos no Primeiro F=F3rum Mundial de Ufologia, no per=EDodo de 07 a 14 de dezembro de 1997, no Parlamento Mundial da Fraternidade Ecum=EAnica, Parlamundi da LBV, em Bras=EDlia, Brasil, vem =E0 presen=E7a do Ministro da Aeron=E1utica Brasileira apresentar os seguintes fatos: 1. Que =E9 de conhecimento geral que o Fen=F4meno UFO, representado pelas constantes visitas de ve=EDculos espaciais ao nosso Planeta Terra, =E9 genu=EDno e assim tem sido confirmado independentemente por uf=F3logos civis e autoridades militares de todo o mundo, nos =FAltimos 50 anos. 2. Que tal fen=F4meno j=E1 teve sua origem plenamente identificada como sendo extraterrestre e que os ve=EDculos que nos visitam t=E3o insistentemente prov=EAm de civiliza=E7=F5es tecnologicamente mais avan=E7adas que a nossa, mas que coexistem conosco no Universo. 3. Que tais civiliza=E7=F5es encontram-se num processo cont=EDnuo de aproxima=E7=E3o da Terra e de nossa civiliza=E7=E3o planet=E1ria. Igualmente, essas civiliza=E7=F5es, em suas manobras, na maioria absoluta das vezes, n=E3o demonstram hostilidade para conosco. 4. Que as visitas de tais civiliza=E7=F5es extraterrestres =E0 Terra t=EAm aumentado, gradativamente, nos =FAltimos anos, segundo comprovam as estat=EDsticas nacionais e internacionais, tanto em quantidade quanto em profundidade e intensidade. 5. Que =E9 urgente que se estabele=E7a um programa oficial de conhecimento, pesquisa e respectiva divulga=E7=E3o p=FAblica do assunto, de forma a esclarecer a popula=E7=E3o brasileira a respeito da ineg=E1vel e cada vez mais crescente presen=E7a extraterrestre na Terra. Assim, considerando atitudes assumidas em v=E1rios momentos da Hist=F3ria, por pa=EDses que j=E1 reconheceram a extens=E3o do problema, como por exemplo o Chile, h=E1 algumas semanas, respeitosamente recomendamos que o Minist=E9rio da Aeron=E1utica da Rep=FAblica Federativa do Brasil, ou algum de seus organismos, a partir deste instante, formule uma pol=EDtica apropriada para se discutir o assunto, nos ambientes, formatos e n=EDveis considerados necess=E1rios. A comunidade ufol=F3gica brasileira, neste ato representada pelos estudiosos nacionais abaixo assinados, com total apoio da comunidade ufol=F3gica mundial, tamb=E9m signat=E1ria deste documento, deseja oferecer voluntariamente seus conhecimentos, seus esfor=E7os e sua dedica=E7=E3o para que tal proposta venha a tornar-se realidade e que tenhamos o reconhecimento imediato do Fen=F4meno UFO. Como marco inicial deste processo, que simbolize uma a=E7=E3o positiva por parte de nossas autoridades, a comunidade ufol=F3gica brasileira respeitosamente solicita que o referido Minist=E9rio abra seus arquivos referentes a pelo menos dois epis=F3dios espec=EDficos e marcantes de nossa pesquisa ufol=F3gica: (a) a Opera=E7=E3o Prato, conduzida pelo Primeiro Comando A=E9reo Regional (Comar), de Bel=E9m (PA), entre setembro e dezembro de 1977, que resultou em volumoso comp=EAndio que documentou com mais de 500 fotografias e in=FAmeros filmes a movimenta=E7=E3o de UFOs sobre a Regi=E3o Amaz=F4nica, da forma como foi confirmado pelo coronel Uyrang=EA Bol=EDvar Soares de Hollanda Lima; e (b) a maci=E7a casu=EDstica ufol=F3gica ocorrida em maio de 1986, sobre os Estados do Rio de Janeiro e S=E3o Paulo, entre outros, em que mais de 20 objetos voadores n=E3o identificados foram observados, radarizados e perseguidos por ca=E7as a jato de nossa valorosa For=E7a A=E9rea, segundo afirmou o pr=F3prio ministro da Aeron=E1utica =E0 =E9poca, brigadeiro Oct=E1vio Moreira Lima. Absolutamente conscientes de que nossas autoridades civis e militares jamais se descuidaram da situa=E7=E3o, que tem sido monitorada com maior ou menor grau de intera=E7=E3o ao longo das =FAltimas d=E9cadas, sempre no interesse da seguran=E7a nacional, julgamos que a tomada da provid=EAncia acima referida solidificar=E1 o in=EDcio de uma pr=F3spera e proveitosa parceria. Atenciosamente, COMISS=C3O BRASILEIRA DE UF=D3LOGOS (CBU) Ademar Jos=E9 Gevaerd Centro Brasileiro de Pesquisas de Discos Voadores (CBPDV) Claudeir Covo Instituto Nacional de Investiga=E7=E3o de Fen=F4menos Aeroespaciais (INFA) Marco Antonio Petit Associa=E7=E3o Fluminense de Estudos Ufol=F3gicos (AFEU) Rafael Cury N=FAcleo de Pesquisas Ufol=F3gicas (NPU) Reginaldo de Athayde Centro de Pesquisas Ufol=F3gicas (CPU) Ubirajara Franco Rodrigues Instituto Ubirajara Rodrigues S.C. (IUR) COMUNIDADE UFOL=D3GICA BRASILEIRA Ademar Eug=EAnio de Mello (SP) Antonio Faleiro MG C=E9sar Pereira Vanucci (MG) Ana Maria dos Santos (BA) Bas=EDlio Baranoff (SP) Chica Granchi (RJ) Cl=E1udio Pamplona (CE) Elias Seixas (RJ) Eust=E1quio Andr=E9a Patounas (SC) Haroldo Westendorff (RS) Irene Granchi (RJ) Luciano Stancka e Silva (SP) Oscar Alberto Romero (BA) Ricardo Varela Corr=EAa (SP) Romio Cury (PR) Edwaldo Gomes Silva Jr. (SP) Emanuel Paranhos (BA) Geraldo Sim=E3o Bichara (MG) Hern=E1n Mostajo (RS) Jos=E9 Luiz Lanhoso Martins (PA) Manoel Gilson Mitoso (AM) Pedro Cunha (DF) Roberto Affonso Beck (DF) Wilson Geraldo de Oliveira (DF) COMUNIDAE UFOL=D3GICA INTERNACIONAL Alejandro Agostinelli (Argentina) Alexandr Balandine (R=FAssia) Barry Chamish (Israel) Budd Hopkins (Estados Unidos) David Jacobs (Estados Unidos) G=E1bor T=E3rc=E0li (Hungria) Giorgio Bongiovanni (It=E1lia) Graham Birdsall (Inglaterra) James Courant (Estados Unidos) Jesse Marcel J=FAnior (Estados Unidos) Michael Hesemann (Alemanha) Pablo Villarrubia Mauso (Espanha) Roberto Pinotti (San Marino) Boris Chourinov (R=FAssia) Colin Andrew (Inglaterra) Derrel Sims (Estados Unidos) G. C. Schellhorn (Estados Unidos) Gildas Bourdais (Fran=E7a) Glennys Mackay (Austr=E1lia) Jaime Maussan (M=E9xico) James Hurtak (Estados Unidos) M=E1rio Dussuel Jurado (Chile) Maurizio Baiata (It=E1lia) Michael Lindemann (Estados Unidos) Per Andersen (Dinamarca) Roberto Banchs (Argentina) Rodrigo Fuenzalida (Chile) Sun-Shi Li (China) Timo Koskeniemmi (Finl=E2ndia) Wendelle Stevens (Estados Unidos) Yvonne Smith (Estados Unidos) =3D=3D=3D cut here =3D=3D=3D -- Pedro Cunha ------------------------------------ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1349 ------------------------------------ ******************* OVNIBR-L ************************ This message reflects the idea of its original author ****************************************************** OVNIs: RECONHECIMENTO OFICIAL JA! UFOs : OFFICIAL ACKNOWLEDGEMENT NOW! VISIT: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1349 ARCHIVES: http://www.ufomind.com To subscribe send message to: majordomo@listbox.com and write in the message: subscribe OVNIBR-L Majordomo Version 1.93
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 16 Marist's ET Poll From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:33:33 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:10:02 -0500 Subject: Marist's ET Poll Found at the website of The Nando Times. URL: http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/health/121597/health7_26825_noframes.h tml Martians smarter than the average American? Copyright =A91997 Nando.net Copyright =A91997 The Associated Press WASHINGTON (December 15, 1997 5:48 p.m. EST http://www.nando.net) -- Most Americans think there is intelligent life on other planets -- more intelligent than on Earth. "The public loves this stuff, they always have," said Paul Horowitz, a professor of physics at Harvard, when told of the finding made public Monday by the Marist Institute for Public Opinion. Horowitz directs a project that operates a 250-million channel receiver listening for signals from space. "It could be that the American people are taking two and two and coming up with four," said Brian Welch, a spokesman for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. What pleased the space community was the response to this question: "Do you think there is intelligent life on other planets?" Sixty percent of the people said yes and 40 percent said no. Marist researchers then asked those who said yes if they thought life on other planets is "more, less, or about as intelligent as human life on earth." The aliens came out ahead on that question, with 47 percent of Americans saying they thought extraterrestrial life was more intelligent, 13 percent said less intelligent and 40 percent said it was about the same. By a margin of 86 to 14, people said they thought galactic neighbors are friendly rather than hostile. Despite the positive view of the possibility of life on other planets, the survey found Americans divided on spending for the space program. Forty-seven percent said the government is spending too much, 43 percent said funding was about right and 10 percent said it was too low. Asked if they thought the space program was a good investment, 45 percent said yes and 55 percent said the money would be better spent on other programs. The telephone survey was conducted Oct. 5-7. Marist questioned 935 adults by telephone and the results had a margin of error of 3.5 percentage points. Broken down by age, people from 18 through 60 were strongly supportive of the idea of life on other planets. But people older than 60 rejected the idea by a margin of 67 to 33. "The subject has moved a lot in just the last couple of years, said Louis Friedman, executive director of the Planetary Society, whose 100,000 members are strong advocates of continuing research into the possibility of life in outer space. Horowitz said researchers are "riding along on this wave of technological innovation." He said his project listens on 250 million channels simultaneously. The first serious search for signals from space was in 1960 and had just one channel, he said. By DONALD M. ROTHBERG, Associated Press Writer Copyright =A91997 Nando.net
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 16 The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:29:00 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:12:32 -0500 Subject: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs Published at the website of The Sunday Times on December 14. URL: http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/Sunday-Times/stifgnnws01001.htm l?1509232 Pope builds telescope to find God THE Pope has asked a team of top astronomers to try to find "the fingerprints of God" amid the chaos of the cosmos, writes Jonathan Leake. The Vatican is jointly building one of the most powerful astronomical observatories on Earth to help search for other planets and star systems capable of supporting life. The observatory, at Mount Graham in Arizona, will have two telescopes designed for astronomical survey work with the ability to pick out the clouds of dust and gas that can give rise to planetary systems. They may also be able to pinpoint those stars and planets on which conditions could be suitable for life to develop. In what amounts to the most ambitious astronomical project in the Catholic church's history, the Vatican and its Jesuit partners will invest at least =A33m in a powerful infrared telescope to search space in tandem with a =A32m optical system now undergoing final tests. The observatory will be used by the astronomers from the Vatican observatory, based near Rome, whose original team of 10 scientists will grow to more than 20 as the facility comes into operation. The Jesuits persuaded the Pope to part with the money after convincing him that the papal observatory, established in the last century, has been rendered useless by atmospheric pollution. Father George Coyne, the director of the observatory, said its main work would be pure science, albeit with a theological bias. "The incarnation of Christ applies to all human activity, including astronomy," he said. For the Vatican, maintaining a team of astronomers is seen as vital to prevent repeats of its past battles with scientists. It persecuted early astronomers such as Copernicus and Galileo, who challenged the church's vision of a universe in which the sun and planets rotated around the Earth. The project does, however, hold some dangers for Christianity. One of the greatest would be the discovery of alien life forms, especially if they were intelligent. The Catholic church would have huge problems deciding if Jesus's crucifixion, which was meant to redeem mankind from original sin, also applied to aliens. One way around that problem would be to convert aliens to Catholicism, an idea already considered by the Pope's astronomers. Father Chris Corbally, an English Jesuit who is the observatory's deputy director, said: "If civilisation were to be found on other planets and if it were feasible to communicate, then we would want to send missionaries to save them, just as we did in the past when new lands were discovered." Such problems may be a long way off, but other equally powerful conflicts between Christianity and science are emerging. One centres on recent theories that the universe has no end or beginning, which would take away the need for a God to have created it at all. The Pope's astronomers have considered such questions and have developed a theory of "speculative theology" which allows the church huge flexibility in the way it responds to new discoveries. Under the theory, newly discovered phenomena are seen as "the fingerprints of God" and their complexity and subtlety simply reinforce God's omnipotence. It means that anything discovered by the Pope's astronomers can be used to reinforce rather than undermine faith. Some believe the Vatican has lost its way. David Thompson, an expert in modern church history at Cambridge University, said: "It is biology that holds the real challenges, especially the idea that our behaviour is predetermined by our genes, and that means sinning is not possible. Without sin, Christianity falls apart completely, irrespective of what lies in the heavens." =B0British astronomers believe they have found planetary systems around four of the nearest stars to Earth. The discovery was announced at the Royal Astronomical Society in London on Friday. Copyright 1997 The Times Newspapers Limited. To inquire about rights to reproduce material from The Sunday Times, please visit the Syndication website.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 16 Re: Darlington's Area 51 Book Reviewed From: Dave Bethke <bethland@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:43:14 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:19:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Darlington's Area 51 Book Reviewed > From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) > Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:23:37 +0200 > Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:33:20 -0500 > Subject: Darlington's Area 51 Book Reviewed > Found at: > http://www.sfgate.com:80/cgi-bin/examiner/article.cgi?year=3D1997&month=3D12 > &day=3D14&article=3DTRAVEL9564.dtl URL doesn't quite work. Try - http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/examiner/article.cgi?year=1997&month=12&day=14&art icle=TRAVEL9564.dtl -- Dave Bethke - on the fringe of Houston
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 16 Re: Bob Dean Undergoes Klass Attack From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:47:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:22:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Bob Dean Undergoes Klass Attack >Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:52:43 -0700 >From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Parascope: Bob Dean undergoes "Klass attack" >Source: http://www.parascope.com/index.htm> >"Cosmic Top Secret" or Cosmic Bunk? >UFOlogist Robert Dean Claims "It's Quite Easy To Lie To The >American Public," and Demonstrates This Claim To Be True >by Philip J. Klass Skeptics UFO Newsletter Reprinted by >permission Not surprise PJK has (finally) tried to shine some light on Dean's claims. The idea that someone would toss a highly classified document on the desk of a person not cleared to see it to wake the person up is quite "far out" to say the least....even ridiculous. Like Lazar and others, Dean's problem is his story is too good. CAVEAT EMPTOR.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 16 Re: Bright Skies 5 From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:48:01 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:27:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Bright Skies 5 >Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:09:46 -0600 (CST) >From: bikebob <bikebob@Walden.MO.NET> [Bob Soetebier] >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Bright Skies 5 / NEXUS [URL] >Just wanted to be sure you all were aware that Part 5 of Harry Mason's >"Bright Skies" article series is now available on-line on the "NEXUS" >magazine : >Harry Mason's "Bright Skies" article series postulates (with some >>rather intriguing evidentiary research) on the possible >connections between recent (since 1993, right up to the end of >1997...as of this writing) "fireball" events (in Australia, and >elsewhere,) electromagnetic offensive-weapons technology, the Aum >Suprem Truth (Aum Shinrikyo) sect, the Kobe (Japan) earthquake, >the Oklahoma City "bombing," the downing of TWA-800 airplane, and more. Well worth the time taken to read through it all! EL MAGNUM CONSPIRITOSO.... everything but the JFK assissination explained here.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 16 New UFO Videos from Scotland From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 06:20:43 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:26:43 -0500 Subject: New UFO Videos from Scotland Greetings Errol & list members, UFO Scotland has recently been updated,and now features some, never before seen on the internet, footage of anomalous lights in Scotland. We have so far managed to post three new pieces of footage and have more to add in the near future, so dont forget to visit us regularly for the latest video updates. I thank you all for your time and wish you all luck with your individual quests. Be happy and healthy always.......................Dave Ledger ================================================================== The truth is just around the corner!,................but how far? Visit UFO SCOTLAND at http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger ICQ pager http://wwp.mirabilis.com/4851425 ==================================================================
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 16 Re: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:50:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:24:21 -0500 Subject: Re: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' >From: entropy@brighid.sunflower.com [Tom Genereaux] >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:38:06 +0000 >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' Tom, Regardless of what type of plane Brown was flying in, the important observation is that pelicans, like geese, have lead in their pants, as compared to flying saucers. Perhaps the next ornithiological proposal will be the legendary Thunderbird (not the car, not the wine). OH SAY, have you recently heard? Ken Arnold did not see a bird. The geese were shot down, and the pelicans drowned, I think that is the final word.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 16 Re: CORSO From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:15:44 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:35:34 -0500 Subject: Re: CORSO >From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:54:47 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: CORSO >>From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> >>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:21:16 +0000 >>Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:23:07 -0500 >>Subject: CORSO >> I'm in the process of setting up some speakers for a UFO >> conference in the UK and we would like to invite Colonel Corso. >I'm only going to rag on you Philip because you are handy: BUT >WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS? >Is this a conference to promote UFOLOGY as a field that is >respectable and to eductate the public? Or is the conference to >make money? Couldn't you (and other conference promoters) try to >invite people to speak at conferences who just might shed some >light on the phenomenon? Or is everyone just interested in >spreading bullshit? >Rebecca Rebecca, So you have all kinds of questions about Corso. And you refuse to call him or interview him about it. Now you are going to persuade others not to do that either. What kind of attitude is this? __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 16 Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:42:16 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:43:23 -0500 Subject: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:29:00 +0200 >Subject: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >Published at the website of The Sunday Times on December 14. URL: >http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/Sunday-Times/stifgnnws01001.htm >l?1509232 >Pope builds telescope to find God <snip> >Father Chris Corbally, an English Jesuit who is the observatory's >deputy director, said: "If civilisation were to be found on other >planets and if it were feasible to communicate, then we would want to >send missionaries to save them, just as we did in the past when new >lands were discovered." Now that's a truly FRIGHTENING thought!!!!!! Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: Bob Dean Undergoes Klass Attack From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:47:29 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:18:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Bob Dean Undergoes Klass Attack >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:47:38 -0500 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Bob Dean Undergoes Klass Attack >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:52:43 -0700 >>From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) >>To: Updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Parascope: Bob Dean undergoes "Klass attack" >>Source: http://www.parascope.com/index.htm> >>"Cosmic Top Secret" or Cosmic Bunk? >>UFOlogist Robert Dean Claims "It's Quite Easy To Lie To The >>American Public," and Demonstrates This Claim To Be True >>by Philip J. Klass Skeptics UFO Newsletter Reprinted by >>permission >Not surprise PJK has (finally) tried to shine some light on >Dean's claims. The idea that someone would toss a highly >classified document on the desk of a person not cleared to see it >to wake the person up is quite "far out" to say the least....even >ridiculous. >Like Lazar and others, Dean's problem is his story is too good. >CAVEAT EMPTOR. Much as I hate to agree with him, I'm with Phil on this one 100%. Dean is a fraud, and needs to be seen as such by the credulous. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:29:32 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:24:21 -0500 Subject: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs > Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:42:16 -0500 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs > >From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:29:00 +0200 > >Subject: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs > >Pope builds telescope to find God > <snip> > >Father Chris Corbally, an English Jesuit who is the observatory's > >deputy director, said: "If civilisation were to be found on other > >planets and if it were feasible to communicate, then we would want to > >send missionaries to save them, just as we did in the past when new > >lands were discovered." > Now that's a truly FRIGHTENING thought!!!!!! > Bob Yeah -- an idea worthy of frying this planet and all its inhabitants to a cinder, once they get up from falling down laughing, of course! Talk about arrogance with no memory! Lehmberg@snowhill.com -- Explore the Alien View? http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/ "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake -- a function of being saved.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: Survey: Americans Believe in Aliens From: RSchatte <RSchatte@aol.com> {Rebecca Schatte] Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:03:33 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:34:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Survey: Americans Believe in Aliens From: AOL News <AOLNews@aol.com> Return-path: <AOLNews@aol.com> Subject: Survey: Americans Believe in Aliens Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:56:52 EST Survey: Americans Believe in Aliens .c The Associated Press By DONALD M. ROTHBERG WASHINGTON (AP) - Most Americans think there is intelligent life on other planets - more intelligent, in fact, than on Earth. ``The public loves this stuff, they always have,'' said Paul Horowitz, a professor of physics at Harvard, when told of the finding made public Monday by the Marist Institute for Public Opinion. Horowitz directs a project that operates a 250-million channel receiver listening for signals from space. ``It could be that the American people are taking two and two and coming up with four,'' said Brian Welch, a spokesman for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. What pleased the space community was the response to this question: ``Do you think there is intelligent life on other planets?'' Sixty percent of the people said yes and 40 percent said no. Marist researchers then asked those who said yes if they thought life on other planets is ``more, less, or about as intelligent as human life on earth.'' The aliens came out ahead on that question, with 47 percent of Americans saying they thought extraterrestrial life was more intelligent, 13 percent said less intelligent and 40 percent said it was about the same. By a margin of 86 to 14, people said they thought galactic neighbors are friendly rather than hostile. Despite the positive view of the possibility of life on other planets, the survey found Americans divided on spending for the space program. Forty-seven percent said the government is spending too much, 43 percent said funding was about right and 10 percent said it was too low. Asked if they thought the space program was a good investment, 45 percent said yes and 55 percent said the money would be better spent on other programs. The telephone survey was conducted Oct. 5-7. Marist questioned 935 adults by telephone and the results had a margin of error of 3.5 percentage points. Broken down by age, people from 18 through 60 were strongly supportive of the idea of life on other planets. But people older than 60 rejected the idea by a margin of 67 to 33. ``The subject has moved a lot in just the last couple of years, said Louis Friedman, executive director of the Planetary Society, whose 100,000 members are strong advocates of continuing research into the possibility of life in outer space. Horowitz said researchers are ``riding along on this wave of technological innovation.'' He said his project listens on 250 million channels simultaneously. The first serious search for signals from space was in 1960 and had just one channel, he said. AP-NY-12-15-97 1649EST Copyright 1997 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without prior written authority of The Associated Press.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: Planets Circling Four Of The Closest Stars? From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 06:04:00 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:31:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Planets Circling Four Of The Closest Stars? Found at BBC's site. URL: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_39000/39536.stm Sunday, December 14, 1997 Published at 16:18 GMT Sci/Tech British scientists unearth new worlds (Image: A high-tech camera zooms in on new worlds) British scientists have used new cameras to find what they say is conclusive evidence of planets circling four of the stars closest to our solar system. Wayne Holland, one of a team of scientists at Edinburgh's Royal Observatory, was quoted in The Observer as saying: "It's planets, I've no doubt." The new camera is cooled to within a 10th of a degree of absolute zero (minus 273 Centigrade), enabling it to pick up faint heat emanations from gas and dust particles warmed by stellar radiation. The newspaper said the discovery was bound to lead to speculation that planets were a common feature of our galaxy, making the existence of intelligent life within it much more probable. The camera was mounted on the Observatory's Maxwell telescope 14,000ft (4,000 metres) above sea level on the Mauna Kea mountain in Hawaii. It probed four stars, Beta Pictoris, Fomalhaut, Epsilon Eridani and Vega. These stars are all relatively young - about 200 million years old compared with several billion for our sun - and are all within 24 light years from Earth. The scientists reported to Britain's Royal Astronomical Society at a meeting last week that each star was surrounded by a vast halo of dust, but the centre of the area was clear of material. The Observer quoted the leader of the survey team, Professor Ben Zuckerman of the University of California, Los Angeles, as saying: "Radiation from the stars may have driven these particles deeper into space. "However, easily the most convincing reason is that they have been swept clean by planets orbiting near each star." Back to top | BBC News Home | BBC Homepage =A9 Internet Links: Royal Observatory in Edinburgh Institute for Astronomy AstroWeb The BBC is not responsible for the content of external internet sites.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: CORSO From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:18:03 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:29:34 -0500 Subject: Re: CORSO >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:15:44 +0100 (MET) >Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:35:34 -0500 >Subject: Re: CORSO > So you have all kinds of questions about Corso. And you refuse to > call him or interview him about it. Now you are going to persuade > others not to do that either. What kind of attitude is this? My attitude is that we (ufologists) need to take responsibility for the kind of information we present to the public for education. Henny, I have no interest in interviewing Corso and I wouldn't stop ANYONE from doing that. However, I think the interview(s) needs to be done privately BEFORE this man is promoted at conferences and such. Until Corso can offer some documentation for his claims, I don't think we need to be serving him to the public. Just my opinion. Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: CORSO From: nick@emailme.at.address.below (Nick Humphries) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:18:14 GMT Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:38:17 -0500 Subject: Re: CORSO >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:15:44 +0100 (MET) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: CORSO >>From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] >>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:54:47 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: CORSO >>>From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> >>>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:21:16 +0000 >>>Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:23:07 -0500 >>>Subject: CORSO >>> I'm in the process of setting up some speakers for a UFO >>> conference in the UK and we would like to invite Colonel Corso. >>I'm only going to rag on you Philip because you are handy: BUT >>WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS? >>Is this a conference to promote UFOLOGY as a field that is >>respectable and to eductate the public? Or is the conference to >>make money? Couldn't you (and other conference promoters) try to >>invite people to speak at conferences who just might shed some >>light on the phenomenon? Or is everyone just interested in >>spreading bullshit? >>Rebecca >Rebecca, >So you have all kinds of questions about Corso. And you refuse to >call him or interview him about it. Now you are going to persuade >others not to do that either. What kind of attitude is this? A case of once bitten, twice shy. We don't want another Santilli-esque fiasco. ------------------------------------------------------- Nick Humphries, nick@the-den.clara.net, at your service If the Truth is Out There, what's In Here? ------------------------------------------------------- The Your Sinclair Rock'n'Roll Years http://www.the-den.clara.net/ys/cover.htm -------------------------------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:14:49 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:40:44 -0500 Subject: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:42:16 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >>From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:29:00 +0200 >>Subject: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >>Published at the website of The Sunday Times on December 14. URL: >>http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/Sunday-Times/stifgnnws01001.htm >>l?1509232 >>Pope builds telescope to find God ><snip> >>Father Chris Corbally, an English Jesuit who is the observatory's >>deputy director, said: "If civilisation were to be found on other >>planets and if it were feasible to communicate, then we would want to >>send missionaries to save them, just as we did in the past when new >>lands were discovered." >Now that's a truly FRIGHTENING thought!!!!!! >Bob No worries Bob, some 'rebel' will probably transmit a copy of one of our history books well in advance of the arrival of the Jesuits! Maybe the poor unsuspecting alien societies will do what the indians -should have done- and that is to -sink em all- before their feet ever touch dry land! I pray that history (never) repeats itself -that way- ever again! And that goes for our own impending contact as well! This time, -we're- the 'indians'! How does it feel Cochise? <G> How! And how! John Velez ; )
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: CORSO From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates] Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:26:01 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:53:17 -0500 Subject: Re: CORSO > Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:15:44 +0100 (MET) > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: CORSO > >From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] > >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:54:47 EST > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: Re: CORSO > >>From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> > >>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:21:16 +0000 > >>Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:23:07 -0500 > >>Subject: CORSO > >> I'm in the process of setting up some speakers for a UFO > >> conference in the UK and we would like to invite Colonel Corso. > >I'm only going to rag on you Philip because you are handy: BUT > >WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS? > >Is this a conference to promote UFOLOGY as a field that is > >respectable and to eductate the public? Or is the conference to > >make money? Couldn't you (and other conference promoters) try to > >invite people to speak at conferences who just might shed some > >light on the phenomenon? Or is everyone just interested in > >spreading bullshit? > >Rebecca > Rebecca, > So you have all kinds of questions about Corso. And you refuse to > call him or interview him about it. Now you are going to persuade > others not to do that either. What kind of attitude is this? But the point is Henry that anybody can come out of the woodwork, unload incredible tales and the tale will be instantly lapped up by the UFO community. Lets take a look at a couple of tales that were supposedly from never-wrong-high-level-never-lied-about-anything-before-in-their -lives- intelligence community sources. Remember the Yellowbook/10,000 year history of earths dealings with ET/Christ was an ET/April 24th 1997 was going to be the big day of mass landings in the desert SW blah blah. Not to mention Lee Shargel and his tales and stories about how Jan 24 1997 was going to be the day when ET radio waves would "bathe" the earth and that would begin a new day for humanity. Naturally when all the dates came and went with nothing happening people moved on to the next tale bearer.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 MUFON Web Ring From: brazel@webtv.net (Clint Stone) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:27:09 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:43:00 -0500 Subject: MUFON Web Ring Dear list, I would like to announce the completion of an attempt to link all serious UFO investigative sites together. Along with other upcoming projects located at Ky/MUFON's site, this one can be found at http://www.angelfire.com/ky/ufohome/ring.html Also in the making: Fran Ridge, coordinater of Lunascan, and I are working on an international directory of all UFO sites and information organized in the MUFON category form, which will also have a who's who? in ufology section. The site will be called INTERLINK: UFO and should be up and running in a few weeks or so. I'll keep everyone posted... Clint Stone brazel@webtv.net http://www.angelfire.com/ky/ufohome
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: Marist's ET Poll From: Bryan Butcher <being@concentric.net> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:01:04 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:57:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Marist's ET Poll > From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:33:33 +0200 > Subject: Marist's ET Poll > Found at the website of The Nando Times. URL: > http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/health/121597/health7_26825_noframes.h > tml > Martians smarter than the average American? > Copyright =A91997 Nando.net > Copyright =A91997 The Associated Press > WASHINGTON (December 15, 1997 5:48 p.m. EST http://www.nando.net) -- > Most Americans think there is intelligent life on other planets -- more > intelligent than on Earth. <big snip...if you want the stats...read the original> I just want to be one of the first to point out...never believe polls and stats, they can be heavily manipulated without the reader's knowledge. Arrangement of questions, population of the survey, and socio-economic status of the respondents are just three very important factors when looking at the numbers. This particular survey, conducted by the by the Marist Institute for Public Opinion, polled a very small section of the "American" populus...a mere 935 adults. In basic stat courses it is taught a survey conducted with less than 10% of a given population is subject to greater error. In this case, similar measurements could elicit inverted numbers easily. It is a sweeping statement to assert *most* Americans believe there is intelligent life in space based on this survey.... ...even though it's probably very true... cheers, Bryan! http://www.raccoon.com/~bryan Member of the NPAA http://www.mufor.org/ares President of the Des Moines Astronomical Society http://www.sciowa.org/~dmas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: Belgium Bogus Update From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:01:50 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:58:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Belgium Bogus Update Hi List, I just registered a new bogus explanation for the Belgian flap: an American AWACS aircraft! Source: MUFON's Dutch representative. Let's not name names here. This explanation will appear in the Dutch Esquire. (Luckily the interviewer saved me for the end to debunk this bullshit). I have rearranged my Bogus Hall of Fame for the occasion and found I have only 13 separate categories of Bogus Explanations. I don't think number 20 will come up before Christmas, so nobody wins the miniature white elephant. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: Ros... uh... _that_ place in the desert From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates] Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:07:35 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:03:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Ros... uh... _that_ place in the desert > From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:12:40 +0200 > Subject: Roswell Considers Licensing Name (Amarillo Globe-News) > >From "Amarillo Globe-News". URL: > http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/121497/LG3046.001.shtml > Web posted Sunday, December 14, 1997 > Town considers licensing name > The Associated Press > ROSWELL (AP) - The mere mention of Roswell is enough to conjure up > images of aliens and crashed UFOs. Mayor Tom Jennings is willing to > bank on it. > After cashing in earlier this year on the 50th anniversary of the > purported crash of an alien spacecraft in the nearby desert, the City > Council is now considering registering "Roswell, New Mexico" as a > global trademark. > "Before the crash, Roswell was just another dusty town in southern New > Mexico," Jennings said. "But now, we have worldwide name recognition, > and we think the town should capitalize on this phenomenon." > An agent from a Los Angeles-based licensing company, NRP Productions, > posed the idea in October. The agent, Neil Russell, said his company > would pay the $100,000 registration fees to license the city's name and > seal in exchange for a third of the profits. Its called "Milking the Roswell cash cow every way possible." Can you imagine if this passes and somebody writes yet and again another Roswell book/article/video/paid lecture? Example Roswell author/lecturer phone rings and the city attorney demands x% of his **gross** lecture door fees or they are going to file a lawsuit. Ah, let the legal manuvering began. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs From: werd@interlog.com [Drew Williamson] Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:29:13 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:06:27 -0500 Subject: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:29:00 +0200 >Subject: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >Published at the website of The Sunday Times on December 14. URL: >http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/Sunday-Times/stifgnnws01001.htm >l?1509232 >Pope builds telescope to find God What a sad story! A religious order that oversees hundreds of millions of people, the vast majority of which are destitute. Women who are told to bear children ad-infinitum; hungry children dressed in tatters, who have little or no opportunity to improve there lot in life. The legions of followers who have scraped and scrimped to give to the church only to have it squandered on something of absolutely no benefit to them! Wouldn't =A35m be better spent on food, clothing and shelter? The irony of this story is overwhelming given this religious order's oppression of Galileo's discoveries at the time! >Father Chris Corbally, an English Jesuit who is the observatory's >deputy director, said: "If civilisation were to be found on other >planets and if it were feasible to communicate, then we would want to >send missionaries to save them, just as we did in the past when new >lands were discovered." Wasn't this the basis of a Robert Heinlen novel? Or was it James Blish...? Hmmmm. Drew Williamson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs From: Whitewolf <witewolf@neptune.on.ca> [Paul Whitewolf] Date: Tue, 16 Dec 97 19:36:31 -0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:08:35 -0500 Subject: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:29:00 +0200 >Subject: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >Published at the website of The Sunday Times on December 14. URL: >http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/Sunday-Times/stifgnnws01001.htm >l?1509232 >Pope builds telescope to find God <snip> >The project does, however, hold some dangers for Christianity. One of >the greatest would be the discovery of alien life forms, especially if >they were intelligent. The Catholic church would have huge problems >deciding if Jesus's crucifixion, which was meant to redeem mankind from >original sin, also applied to aliens. One way around that problem would >be to convert aliens to Catholicism, an idea already considered by the >Pope's astronomers. <snip> Put you're hand up against mine on your UFO. Let the almighty power of God flow through your alien body. Surely only your technology must be more advanced than ours.... Paul Whitewolf....X-Catholic and now the Evil Prince of Darkness...<G>. "If you can't laugh at yourself, you might be missing the joke of the century." ...Dame Edna, 1997.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Greenland the Site of Meteor Search From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates] Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:42:16 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:10:09 -0500 Subject: Greenland the Site of Meteor Search Greenland the Site of Meteor Search .c The Associated Press COPENHAGEN, Denmark (AP) - Danish Air Force planes searched the vast white expanse of southern Greenland on Tuesday for traces of a meteor believed to have struck the ice-capped island. The search was prompted by a giant flash that split the darkness about 5 a.m. Dec. 9. The flash was reported by three fishermen working off Greenland's east coast. A parking lot surveillance camera in Nuuk, the territory's capital on the west coast, also recorded a brief illumination at that time. ``According to the accounts, the flash was so huge that we have good reason to believe that this is a giant (meteor),'' said Bjoern Franck Joergensen of the Tycho Brahe Planetarium in Copenhagen. Joergensen said it probably was ``a one-piece, solid meteor'' that crashed. Most meteors travel at more than 7,500 mph and explode or break up as they enter the atmosphere. Joergensen would not speculate on how large the meteor may have been. The search has been hampered by heavy snowfalls that could easily bury even a large meteor or obscure its crater. About 85 percent of Greenland is covered by an ice cap. The search of the southern portion of the island was suspended Monday due to a blizzard, but resumed Tuesday. Greenland, a semi-independent Danish territory, has been hit by enormous meteors before. At the begining of the century, a U.S. expedition led by Robert Peary found a huge meteor in northeastern Greenland, and a Danish expedition found a 22-ton meteor in 1963. AP-NY-12-16-97 1258EST
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: CORSO From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:05:46 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:13:45 -0500 Subject: Re: CORSO > From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] > Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:54:47 EST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: CORSO > >From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> > >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:21:16 +0000 > >Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:23:07 -0500 > >Subject: CORSO > > I'm in the process of setting up some speakers for a UFO > > conference in the UK and we would like to invite Colonel Corso. > I'm only going to rag on you Philip because you are handy: BUT > WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS? > Is this a conference to promote UFOLOGY as a field that is > respectable and to eductate the public? Or is the conference to > make money? Couldn't you (and other conference promoters) try to > invite people to speak at conferences who just might shed some > light on the phenomenon? Or is everyone just interested in > spreading bullshit? > Rebecca Rebecca, Well stated. To every available appearance (and, so far, to not a single contrary appearance), The Day After Roswell is the Behind the Flying Saucers of the 1990s. In other words, science fiction of the worst and most cynical kind. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: CORSO From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:38:22 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:11:41 -0500 Subject: Re: CORSO > From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] > Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:54:47 EST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: CORSO > >From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> > >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:21:16 +0000 > >Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:23:07 -0500 > >Subject: CORSO > > I'm in the process of setting up some speakers for a UFO > > conference in the UK and we would like to invite Colonel Corso. > I'm only going to rag on you Philip because you are handy: BUT > WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS? > Is this a conference to promote UFOLOGY as a field that is > respectable and to eductate the public? Or is the conference to > make money? Couldn't you (and other conference promoters) try to > invite people to speak at conferences who just might shed some > light on the phenomenon? Or is everyone just interested in > spreading bullshit? > Rebecca Dear Rebecca, If you think people are involved in conference organising to make money then think again. I dare say a few might be but I do not count myself as one of them. My aim of any conference is to allow people to put their information across and then allow those in attendence to decide whether or not it's bullshit. In the past I have organised many conferences with a wide variety of people stepping up to the podium including Paul Devereux, Jacques Vallee, John Keel, Budd Hopkins, Eddie Bullard, Dr Richard Lawrence, Stanton Friedman, Cynthia Hind and many, many more. What we have to remember in this discipline we call ufology, is that one mans evidence is another mans (or in your case womans) bullshit. It is surely not up to me, or others like me, to act as a censor when organising such conferences. Whether I agree with Corso or not remains to be seen, but as a socialist I will defend his right to be heard and for those listening to decide whether or not they believe him. Merry Christmas. Philip. PS. Does this mean you can put me in contact with Colonel Corso or not ?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Old Spirals Could Be Sign of Alien Visits From: werd@interlog.com [Drew Williamson] Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:16:56 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:22:44 -0500 Subject: Old Spirals Could Be Sign of Alien Visits From: Globe and Mail, December 7, 1997, page F8 Old spirals could be sign of alien visits by Jay Ingram I think I have stumbled on one of me great discoveries of all time: evidence that aliens once visited this planet. I realize that this is a notion that has often been discredited and so I need to make a strong case. But I think I have one. First, let me emphasize that I think the notions of the deservedly maligned Erich von Daniken, and others like him, that mysterious glyphs in Mesoamerican carvings represent advanced technologies like rockets are crazy. Nor do I think the Nazca lines in Peru-the outline drawings apparently made to be seen from the air-suggest that aliens took the natives aloft to give them inspiration to create these works of art. I am not convinced that the African Dogon knowledge about an invisible companion star for the star Sirius requires that Sirians landed and imparted that information. All of these are pretty feeble, last resort grasping at extraterrestrial straws to explain the somewhat outof-the-ordinary. Yet, on the other hand, there is the firm belief among astronomers and cosmologists that there are very likely intelligent civilizations out there. I think that now for the first time there might be evidence at hand of knowledge imparted by aliens to humans thousands of years ago-knowledge that we have just now decoded. The story begins with stone carvings of the neolithic age, 4,000 or 5,000 years ago. One of the most common decorative motifs in carvings of the time is something called a "cup and ring" pattern. It is a tightly coiled spiral, resembling a coil of rope as seen from above. While these are often seen carved into stone objects and walls in Scotland and Ireland, they actually are very widespread, appearing throughout Europe and Asia. There is no evidence that these tight spirals are meant to mimic anything the people of the time might have used (like rope or woven baskets), but their ubiquity suggests a strong artistic urge to create and copy them. The problem until now has been that, unlike the ice-age art of Lascaux and Altamira, where there is a logical link between the large mammals depicted in the caves and the artists who hunted them-there seemed to be no good reason to carve tight spirals. However, recent advances in molecular biology have changed all that. Specifically, a recent publication in the journal Cell has provided what I think is an explanation, one that requires the visitation of a civilization with advanced technology. The scientific article in Cell describes how DNA is packaged inside strange objects called bacterialviruses (technically bacteriophages). These are viruses that prey only on bacteria. They are so tiny they can be seen only with an electron microscope, and even then they are marvellously complex. Only a few of their inner details have been revealed. In the recent issue of Cell, researchers use high-resolution images of viruses frozen in ice, then sliced, to show how the genetic material DNA is packed inside the socalled "head" of the virus. To fit inside, the relatively huge strand of DNA is compacted by a factor of 10,000. And how do you think it's arranged inside the virus? Of course-as a tight spiral. It is awe-inspiring to see the two images together: a cryoelectron micrograph of the DNA of bacteriophage T7 next to a carving from Neolithic Ireland. They are exactly the same. It makes perfect sense to me. I suppose aliens could pass on astronomical knowledge or show technopoor earthlings their flying machines; but how grandiose and unimaginative. How much more dramatic to inform stone-age people of the existence of the master molecule, to tell them of the evolutionary struggle in the microworld, then to give them a motif that would be reproduced over and over, finally to be decoded by us, the carvers' high-tech descendants. I hope to gather all the relevant evidence and publish this discovery more widely in the scientific literature-hopefully by the first of April. Jay Ingram hosts the TV program @discovery.ca on the Discovery Channel.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Kudos to Paul Devereux From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:27:59 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:09:42 -0500 Subject: Kudos to Paul Devereux The show "Earth Lights" was broadcast on the Discovery Channel this weekend. Paul was one of the featured researchers and an Associate Producer. He presented himself and his thoeries very well. The study of reported earth light locations can certainly bring you some exotic travel experiences. The tenuous theories that make the leap from coincidental to causation failed to convert me but they were well presented. I would have enjoyed seeing more of the final reports from the field trips included in the show. All in all, the show was a piece of good work from Paul. See, we can be nice to each other when we really try... Its hard to say why Paul didn't promote the show in his good-bye for now message. Sure, I am no less an unabashed supporter of the ETH now then before watching the show, but it was nice to get a clear outline of another view. Bye... Ted..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:52:14 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:12:56 -0500 Subject: Re: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' Regarding... >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:50:22 -0500 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: The Birth of 'Flying Saucers' Bruce, straining poetic license, wrote: OH SAY, have you recently heard? Ken Arnold did not see a bird. The geese were shot down, and the pelicans drowned, I think that is the final word. Bruce, They flew like geese, so Arnold said But were not geese, that's put to bed What could they be, these 'UFOs' Until this day, nobody knows. Pelicans? Why that's absurd! And yet, he wrote, they flew like birds In echelon, all nine, I note Don't write it off, and that's a quote! Speculation? That's surely fine. And, of course, it wasn't mine Birdwatchers gave their expertise Although for some, it didn't please! This theory has some way to go New evidence ensures that's so I hope you won't declare it crass But I've passed it on to Philip Klass... On which dubious note... In "Resolving Arnold - Part 2: Guess Again", Martin Kottmeyer writes: "The likelihood of ornithological misinterpretation may be enhanced by an incident that happened a month after the big event. While en route to Tacoma to investigate the Maury Island mystery, Kenneth Arnold encountered a cluster of twenty-five brass-colored objects that looked like ducks, but displayed a terrific rate of speed. "I was a little bit shocked and excited when I realized they had the same flight characteristics of the large objects I had observed on June 24," he wrote. They also appeared round to him. He turned his plane to follow them, but they disappeared to the east at a speed far in excess of his airplane. He concluded, "I know they were not ducks because ducks don't fly that fast". What's your take on this? James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs From: "Scott Carr" <Scott_Carr@MCKINSEY.COM> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:02:36 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:24:46 -0500 Subject: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >Father Chris Corbally, an English Jesuit who is the observatory's >deputy director, said: "If civilisation were to be found on other >planets and if it were feasible to communicate, then we would want to >send missionaries to save them, just as we did in the past when new >lands were discovered." >Now that's a truly FRIGHTENING thought!!!!!! Hmm. I hope that the ET's aren't missionaries here to "save" us... -Scott
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Greenland Meteorite Crash From: "Len Fedullo" <lenf1@snip.net> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:56:02 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:50:17 -0500 Subject: Greenland Meteorite Crash I retrieved the following article from the BBC Current Affair publication Len Fedullo. It came from the skies - Satellite image of the impact-. (Courtesy Dundee Satellite Receiving Station) Martin Shankleman reports (3'27")As fishermen minded their nets in the dull grey of a Greenland dawn, a blinding flash lit up the sky. The meteorite fell near the town of Qaqortoq The meteorite fell near the town of Qaqortoq Whereas 2,000 years ago they might have started a new religion, now scientists believe they are hot on the trail of a huge meteorite. Bjorn Ericksonn, the first mate on the trawler Regina, saw the object fall. "I was on the bridge and looking out of the window, I have never seen so strong light before in the night," he said. "In the strongest part of the light, there looked like a circle that was burning." Bjorn Ericksson describes what he saw (1'03") Many people across the southern tip of Greenland saw the huge light in the early hours of Tuesday morning last week. But no-one was able to photograph it as it glowed for between 2 and 5 seconds. However a closed circuit surveillance camera in a car park in the town of Nuuk did record the incredible brightening of the ambient light. Professor Chandra Wickramasingha from Cardiff University (2'19") Seismographic equipment recorded a 10 second shockwave. Scientists believe the early indications are that the meteorite could have measured between 50 and 100 metres across, and have been travelling at 7,600 mph. This would put it on a par with the Tunguska meteorite which devastated hundreds of square miles of Siberia in 1908, when it exploded with the same energy as a 15 megatonne nuclear bomb. The Danish airforce have sent up planes to look for the impact site. So far they have had little success because of appalling weather conditions. Captain Mads Als of the Danish airforce (53") "We will concentrate in the southern part of Greenland, we have a fishing vessel on the east coast, and he took a bearing where he thought it might have hit the ground," said Captain Mads Als of the Danish Airforce. The search could be extremely hard. The meteorite would have been white hot when it hit the ground. It would have melted its way into the pack ice, which would have then melted on top of it. Just to make things more difficult, there was heavy snow in the hours after the impact, further obscuring the site. "We don't have a radar on the aircraft which can look through the snow," said Captain Als. "So it's pretty much a visual observation." The meteorite has been named Qaqortoq, after the nearest post office, which is apparantly traditional. | BBC News Home | Dundee Satellite Receiving Station
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates] Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:30:32 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:42:46 -0500 Subject: Re: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release > Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:31:17 +0000 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Ashley Rye <ashleyry@netcomuk.co.uk> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release > >From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Rob Gates] > >Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:17:00 EST > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release > >> From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) > >> To: updates@globalserve.net > >> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:32:24 +0200 > >> Subject: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release > >> Published on American Computer Company's website December 7. > >> URL: > >> http://www.American-Computer.com/Transcap.htm > >> AMERICAN COMPUTER COMPANY unearths previously unknown electronic > >> device it claims it obtained by analyzing notes about Alien > >> Artifact examined by Bell Labs 50 years ago, notes that were sold > >> ACC by an unnamed source... > >Same ACC crap being dissiminated by "unnamed source.." we have > >been hearing about for months -- and as usual comes from unnamed > >sources. > >Its called rumor mongering on the internet. > >Isn't it convient that all this trash comes out just before ACC's > >alleged public stock offerings? > >Cheers, > >Robert > If there is any substance at all in ACC's recent statement, > Robert, you may have to modify your views in the wake of > forthcoming events, if not actually swallow your words whole... > time will clarify your assumption that all this talk is some kind The point is Ash, is many in the UFO community never met a tale/rumor gossip/unprovable story that they didn't embrace. For example last year at this time we were being barraged with Yellowbook/Christ is an ET/10,000 year history of ET dealings with earth/and last but not least mass landings in the desert SW on April 24th 1997. All of this posted on the web from "unamed" but never-wrong-trust-with-my-life-high-level-top-drawer intelligence community sources. Then we had Lee Shargel and his (amongst others) ET radio waves were going to bathe the earth on Jan 24th 1997 which would begin a new day for humanity. Naturally because all these rumors/and gossip was posted on the Web from unamed sources we should instantly treat them as gospel fact. Ash you hit it right when you started with "IF.." W hat in fact will happen is the tales and stories will continue from the ACC site BUT NO PROOF WILL BE FORTHCOMING. > of elaborate sales pitch, or something else. If it's hype, then > they have gone to a vast amount of trouble to concoct all these > elaborate stories, putting themselves in a delicate, expensive > legal position, potentially undermining their credibility in the > eyes of customers and competitors merely in order to attract, It doesn't put them in a "delicate, expensive legal position" even if its all untrue because nobody can sue them and win. Their defense will be "Well we were only posting what our source told us...Freedom of speech...blah blah. > what, publicity? is this logical? Is it necessary to get > involved in legal battles with the Air Force to promote sales? Can anybody cite a legal case number so that the actual case file could be looked up. As far as I know all we have is ACC's word that they are in a case with the AF, and ACC's word that it involves Roswell. > Are you implying that the break-in and death threats are further > fabrications, and that the transcapacitor will have no influence > on the future of computer technology, since it doesn't exist? Again we have only ACC's word that all this is connected, that death threats were in fact received. > Perhaps we might wait and see for ourselves before agreeing with > your statements unconditionally. You are more then welcome to wait and see. Many in the UFO community are still waiting and seeing for: MJ-12, alien autopsy (you know Scamtilli still hasn't provided the film clip to verify the films age inspite of repeated promised to everyone) and the big ET reality announcement that was going to happen in 1974, then 1977 after Spielburg's move was released, then in 1982 after ET, then in 1988, then last year after the Mars life announcement .. and I have skipped a wholebunch in between.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: CORSO From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 03:09:25 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:55:01 -0500 Subject: Re: CORSO >From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:38:22 +0000 >Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:11:41 -0500 >Subject: Re: CORSO <snip> > What we have to remember in this discipline we call ufology, is > that one mans evidence is another mans (or in your case womans) > bullshit. It is surely not up to me, or others like me, to act as > a censor when organising such conferences. What evidence has Corso offered, other than testimony? > Whether I agree with Corso or not remains to be seen, but as a > socialist I will defend his right to be heard and for those > listening to decide whether or not they believe him. I don't believe Corso nor do I have a problem with the man saying what he wishes. He said it in a book called "The Day After Roswell." Unfortunately, the book lacks documentation. I didn't expect pictures of the alien technology but one or two pages reproduced from his diaries would have been nice. Or something from his military record. But no, we didn't get that. We got a book that reads like a bad novel. I'm sure you've read the first chapter or two. This man doesn't even know WHEN Roswell happened. He's not even sure how many fingers the aliens had. He didn't even realize that he was involved with the project of millennium until at least 40 years after the fact -- when he started looking through his diaries and papers! Oh yes, Corso has a right to have his say -- but is it for us to give him a forum to promote his claims when he offers not one shred of evidence? I don't think so. Practice Responsible Ufology. > Merry Christmas. And A Happy Holiday Season to you and your family! > PS. > Does this mean you can put me in contact with Colonel Corso or not ? Sorry, I don't have that information. I would recommend going through his publisher, or Birnes. I'm sure someone will have the information. Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: Belgium Bogus Update From: "Remo Ponti (Mr. Wolf)" <rponti@geocities.com> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:22:39 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:12:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Belgium Bogus Update >Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:01:50 +0100 (MET) >To: UFO Updates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Belgium Bogus Update >I just registered a new bogus explanation for the Belgian flap: >an American AWACS aircraft! In the SOBEPS book "Vague d'ovni sur la Belgique" Volume 2 the authors say that A SPECIFIC sighting was caused by an AWACS, not ALL the flap. In fact M. Bougard affirmed that the policemen identified three stars as a triangular object. I hope I remember correctly. -- bye, Remo rponti@geocities.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: Ros... uh... _that_ place in the desert From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:35:33 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:13:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Ros... uh... _that_ place in the desert >From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates] >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:07:35 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Ros... uh... _that_ place in the desert >Can you imagine if this passes and somebody writes yet and again >another Roswell book/article/video/paid lecture? >Example Roswell author/lecturer phone rings and the city attorney >demands x% of his **gross** lecture door fees or they are going >to file a lawsuit. >Ah, let the legal manuvering began. >Cheers, >Robert Robert, I'm not worried. Previous attempts to trademark names, and in one case a building, have conveyed only very limited trademark rights. Besides, if they are successful, I'll just trademark my last name and go after the oil company for infringement!! Bob Shell
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: Old Spirals Could Be Sign of Alien Visits From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:35:47 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:20:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Old Spirals Could Be Sign of Alien Visits >From: werd@interlog.com [Drew Williamson] >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:16:56 -0500 (EST) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Old Spirals Could Be Sign of Alien Visits >From: Globe and Mail, December 7, 1997, page F8 >Old spirals could be sign of alien visits >by Jay Ingram >I think I have stumbled on one of me great discoveries of all >time: evidence that aliens once visited this planet. I realize >that this is a notion that has often been discredited and so I >need to make a strong case. But I think I have one. >First, let me emphasize that I think the notions of the >deservedly maligned Erich von Daniken, and others like him, that >mysterious glyphs in Mesoamerican carvings represent advanced >technologies like rockets are crazy. Nor do I think the Nazca >lines in Peru-the outline drawings apparently made to be seen >from the air-suggest that aliens took the natives aloft to give >them inspiration to create these works of art. >I am not convinced that the African Dogon knowledge about an >invisible companion star for the star Sirius requires that >Sirians landed and imparted that information. <Really big snip...> >I hope to gather all the relevant evidence and publish this >discovery more widely in the scientific literature-hopefully by >the first of April. A little early for April fool's jokes, isn't it Jay???? Actually those tight spiral designs you are talking about look EXACTLY like the coiled mosquito repellers used in the tropics. You light the outside end and they burn slowly, releasing smoke which keeps the little beggers at bay. Obviously, aliens don't like to be bitten by bugs, so when visiting our vermin- infested ancestors, they brought lots of these coils with them. No electron microscope needed. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: CORSO From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:35:17 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:32:31 -0500 Subject: Re: CORSO >From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:18:03 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: CORSO >>From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >>Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:15:44 +0100 (MET) >>Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:35:34 -0500 >>Subject: Re: CORSO >> So you have all kinds of questions about Corso. And you refuse to >> call him or interview him about it. Now you are going to persuade >> others not to do that either. What kind of attitude is this? >My attitude is that we (ufologists) need to take responsibility >for the kind of information we present to the public for >education. > >Henny, I have no interest in interviewing Corso and I wouldn't >stop ANYONE from doing that. However, I think the interview(s) >needs to be done privately BEFORE this man is promoted at >conferences and such. Until Corso can offer some documentation >for his claims, I don't think we need to be serving him to the >public. Just my opinion. >Rebecca Rebecca, If Ufology did that, there would be no conferences! Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:47:16 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:48:05 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] > Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:10:55 EST > Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:12:33 -0500 > Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:35:33 -0700 > Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:42:04 -0500 > Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > > This discussion has > > nothing to do with Corso's UFO claims or Roswell or > > backengineering or anything else, this discussion is about his > > military record. If you have some information or evidence that > > casts doubt on specific aspects of his military record than I > > reccommend you post it. > I doubt I have seen anything different than you. > > According to his FOIA military record his claims of heading the > > FTD for 2 years were overstated and that he actually held this > > position for only 90 days. > So what do you think about that? I think it SUCKS!...If the man is having trouble differentiating months from years and remembering which continents he's been to then it poses a real serious problem for his credibility. I know that military records can quite often contain incorrect information (I think Kevin Randle presented good evidence for this awhile back) but if so these are big errors. So either his memory is failing him, his notes are wrong, he's been duped by his co-writer, or he's trying to dupe all of us. Gotta be one of those. Eventually one of us will get around to putting together a list of all of Corso flaws and their relative "explanations" from Corso and Birnes to account for the flaws and see where his credibility stands then. Err...maybe Tom Mahood is already working on that. who knows? One thing that really galls me is that I heard that Corso's book was being sold directly out of the Pentagon book store and the Wright Patterson AFB book store...is this an endorsement? I have other problems with Corso but they're completely subjective. Reading his book was like seeing everything every ufologist ever wanted to hear strung together like a sonata. He constantly touched on known cases, conspiracy theories, and research that is in the public domain. Barring his backengineering claims, I was troubled by his lack of original information about the nature of the phenomenon and aversion to discussing other alleged crash cases. Corso's cloud does have a silver lining however, I'd heard some folks associated with CAUS had been using Corso to pound on the Defense Department and try to initiate a grand jury investigation. The nice thing about this is it can be used as legal fuel against the cover-up because Corsos's claims (irrespective of his veracity) could conceivably assist in the release of certain documents. Peter Gersten and Larry Bryant have been working on this independantly I believe. Jared.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: CORSO From: "Serge Salvaille" <sergesa@connectmmic.net> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:25:40 +0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:19:57 -0500 Subject: Re: CORSO >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:38:22 +0000 >From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: CORSO Dear Philip, Just a couple of questions arising from your reply to Rebecca... 1. [...] >If you think people are involved in conference organising to make >money then think again. I dare say a few might be but I do not >count myself as one of them. The fact that one makes no money with a book on ufology has already been discussed on the list. Now, I learn one makes no money with conferences. How does one earn a living in ufology ? Please understand "earning a living" and "making money" are the same. 2. [...] >My aim of any conference is to allow people to put their >information across and then allow those in attendence to decide >whether or not it's bullshit. [...] >What we have to remember in this discipline we call ufology, is >that one mans evidence is another mans (or in your case womans) >bullshit. It is surely not up to me, or others like me, to act as >a censor when organising such conferences. Considering such an open-minded attitude, I fail to understand your verbal fencing with Rebecca. Please consider here that "fencing" is a sport of parry and riposte and open criticism. 3. [...] >Whether I agree with Corso or not remains to be seen, but as a >socialist I will defend his right to be heard and for those >listening to decide whether or not they believe him. I have trouble understanding that Corso's right to be heard needs to be defended. I mean, he has already written a book hasn't he ?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: CORSO From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:15:46 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:15:06 -0500 Subject: Re: CORSO > Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:38:22 +0000 > From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: CORSO > > From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] > > Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:54:47 EST > > To: updates@globalserve.net > > Subject: Re: CORSO > > >From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> > > >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:21:16 +0000 > > >Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:23:07 -0500 > > >Subject: CORSO > > > I'm in the process of setting up some speakers for a UFO > > > conference in the UK and we would like to invite Colonel Corso. > > I'm only going to rag on you Philip because you are handy: BUT > > WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS? > > Is this a conference to promote UFOLOGY as a field that is > > respectable and to eductate the public? Or is the conference to > > make money? Couldn't you (and other conference promoters) try to > > invite people to speak at conferences who just might shed some > > light on the phenomenon? Or is everyone just interested in > > spreading bullshit? > > Rebecca > Dear Rebecca, > If you think people are involved in conference organising to make > money then think again. I dare say a few might be but I do not > count myself as one of them. > My aim of any conference is to allow people to put their > information across and then allow those in attendence to decide > whether or not it's bullshit. > In the past I have organised many conferences with a wide variety > of people stepping up to the podium including Paul Devereux, > Jacques Vallee, John Keel, Budd Hopkins, Eddie Bullard, Dr > Richard Lawrence, Stanton Friedman, Cynthia Hind and many, many > more. > What we have to remember in this discipline we call ufology, is > that one mans evidence is another mans (or in your case womans) > bullshit. It is surely not up to me, or others like me, to act as > a censor when organising such conferences. > Whether I agree with Corso or not remains to be seen, but as a > socialist I will defend his right to be heard and for those > listening to decide whether or not they believe him. > Merry Christmas. > Philip. > PS. > Does this mean you can put me in contact with Colonel Corso or not ? Philip, Exercising judgment is not the same thing as being a "censor." Surely you know that. Col. Corso has no constitutional right to speak at your conference, any more than I do or whoever happens to be reading these words at this moment does. Grave questions have been raised about the credibility of Corso's account and about the sincerity of the authors of The Day After Roswell. The book makes incredible claims and offers virtually nothing in the way of credible evidence for them. We ufologists (I'm confused about what your being a "socialist" has to do with this) have a responsibility to our public. One way we exercise that is to present accurate information and reasonable analysis to an audience which gets little of either from popular media treatments of the UFO phenomenon. Except in a realm where intellectual anarchy rules, one person's opinion or claim is NOT as good as somebody else's. In the real world of which ufology wants to be a part, claims have to be tested, opinions challenged and tested. So far Corso has failed this reasonable standard miserably, and unless we are the gullible fools our critics would like the world to believe we are, we ought not to be encouraging him. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Meteorite Suspected in Fatal House Fire From: Kenny Young <task@fuse.net> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:22:46 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:39:32 -0500 Subject: Meteorite Suspected in Fatal House Fire Updated 5:01pm EST December 16, 1997 Meteorite suspected in fatal house fire BOGOTA (Reuters) - A meteorite may have triggered a fire that killed four small children in central Colombia, local media reports said Tuesday. Bogota's El Espectador newspaper quoted witnesses, including the children's father and local firefighters, as saying "fireballs" had been spotted raining down from the sky in the impoverished area of Huila province where the children died in the house fire on Sunday evening. The children, all under six, were alone in their ramshackle house when the fire broke out and authorities initially suspected a candle or electrical short circuit. But Capt. Carlos Augusto Rojas of the fire department in Pitalito, a town three miles from the village where the fire occurred, said the house had no electricity and other possible causes of the blaze -- including a candle or gas lamp -- had been ruled out. Speaking in an interview with the Radionet all-news radio program, Rojas said he saw three distant fireballs in the sky when he arrived to fight the blaze. He said no evidence of a meteorite had been found inside the house where the children were killed in their sleep. But he said a hole, measuring about 10 inches in diameter, was discovered in the zinc roof of the house, along with traces of a sulphur-like substance that was being studied in a local laboratory. The hole in the roof had been punched from the outside, Rojas said, adding that everything seemed to indicate the children were the unwitting victims of a meteorite. REUTERS End of article -- UFO Research http://home.fuse.net/task/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: "George Fergus" <fergus@mail.ccrl.mot.com> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:49:14 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:43:39 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso Regarding Corso's motives: True, we do not know exactly how much money Corso received as an advance for his book "The Day After Roswell", nor could he have known ahead of time how much he would currently be receiving in royalties. We do know, however, that Corso's original manuscript was entitled "I Walked with Giants: My Career in Military Intelligence". Senator Strom Thurmond claims that this is the book for which he originally wrote an introduction, and that it contained no conspicuous references to Roswell or UFO's. Why do you think Corso changed the entire thrust and title of his book, because he suddenly felt a burning desire to expose the truth about Roswell, or because his UFO buff co-author suggested that the new version would be more successful and make more money? -George Fergus
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 'Murderous Meteors' From: Kenny Young <task@fuse.net> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:55:46 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:55:49 -0500 Subject: 'Murderous Meteors' Of considerable interest to UFO researchers is the disproportionate numbers of 'meteor sightings' as of recent, with new episodes and events appearing across newsires almost weekly. Of concern is the 'murderous meteor' episode from Bogota, Columbia, reported by Reuters News Agency on December 16, 1997. The article states that a meteorite may have triggered a fire that killed four small children. Quoting the article: Bogota's El Espectador newspaper quoted witnesses, including the children's father and local firefighters, as saying "fireballs" had been spotted raining down from the sky in the impoverished area of Huila province where the children died in the house fire on Sunday evening. The children, all under six, were alone in their ramshackle house when the fire broke out and authorities initially suspected a candle or electrical short circuit. But Capt. Carlos Augusto Rojas of the fire department in Pitalito, a town three miles from the village where the fire occurred, said the house had no electricity and other possible causes of the blaze -- including a candle or gas lamp -- had been ruled out. Speaking in an interview with the Radionet all-news radio program, Rojas said he saw three distant fireballs in the sky when he arrived to fight the blaze. He said no evidence of a meteorite had been found inside the house where the children were killed in their sleep. But he said a hole, measuring about 10 inches in diameter, was discovered in the zinc roof of the house, along with traces of a sulphur-like substance that was being studied in a local laboratory. The hole in the roof had been punched from the outside, Rojas said, adding that everything seemed to indicate the children were the unwitting victims of a meteorite. End of article One thing which caught my attention was the reference made by Capt. Carlos Augusto Rojas of the fire department in Pitalito, who stated that 'three fireballs' were in the sky when they arrived to fight the blaze. This is most odd, and seems to indicate a rain of meteors over one localized community for an extended time frame (time from which the meteor hits house and starts fire until arrival of the fire department). How likely are the odds of something like this happening within a small area? In researching my files on 'MURDEROUS METEORS,' I found an extraordinary event happening in Teheran, Iran on August 15, 1951, in which a rain of meteorites killed twelve persons, injured nineteen and took a heavy toll of livestock near Shiraz, in southwestern Iran. The event was reported by Iranian newspapers and The United Press. Sixty-two houses were said to have been destroyed by the meteoric shower. An Alabama woman reportedly was bruised by an incoming space projectile in 1954. In July of 1988, scientists at Battelle Memorial Institute in Columbus, Ohio investigated an incident in which a fist-sized hole was punched through the roof of a house under construction in Highland County, Ohio. In 1992, a 28-pound chunk of extraterrestrial rock pierced through a car fender in Peekskill, N.Y. -- UFO Research http://home.fuse.net/task/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Europa Flyby - Start of Galileo Mission Part II From: NASANews@hq.nasa.gov Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:45:59 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:08:12 -0500 Subject: Europa Flyby - Start of Galileo Mission Part II Donald Savage Headquarters, Washington, DC December 16, 1997 (Phone: 202/358-1547) Jane Platt Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA (Phone: 818/354-5011) RELEASE: 97-286 CLOSEST EUROPA FLYBY MARKS START OF GALILEO MISSION "PART II" NASA's Galileo spacecraft today successfully made its closest-ever flyby of Jupiter's icy moon Europa, marking the start of an extended mission that will focus on new and tantalizing scientific questions raised by its just-completed, highly successful two-year primary mission. "Galileo has earned a place in history as the first mission to orbit an outer planet," said Dr. Wesley T. Huntress, Jr., NASA's associate administrator for space science, Washington, DC. "Galileo already has returned a wealth of new information in its two-year scientific exploration of Jupiter's atmosphere and system of moons. But the best yet may still be ahead of us as Galileo continues its mission at Jupiter with a focus on the moons Europa and Io in the next two years." Galileo dipped over Europa at an altitude of only 124 miles (200 kilometers), with the signal received on Earth at 7:49 a.m. EST. This was the first encounter of the Galileo Europa mission, which began formally on Dec. 8, following the end of Galileo's primary mission. The Galileo Europa mission will study Jupiter's icy satellite in detail in hopes of shedding more light on the intriguing prospect that liquid oceans may lie under Europa's ice crust. New images released today from Galileo's Europa encounter of Nov. 6 show more evidence that the moon has been subjected to intense geological deformation. The pictures show a mottled region of dark and splotchy terrain that scientists say represents some of the most recent geologic activity on Europa. It is believed the mottled appearance was created when chaotic areas of the bright, icy crust broke apart and exposed darker material underneath. The new images also show a smooth, gray band where the Europan crust has been fractured, separated, and filled in with material from the interior. Numerous isolated mountains or "massifs" are visible. The new images represent a small portion of the 1,800 images obtained during Galileo's primary mission, including hundreds of high-resolution images of Jupiter's moons. The images and other information gathered by Galileo's science instruments have dramatically revised our knowledge of Jupiter and its moons, according to mission scientists. The Galileo Europa mission is designed to follow up on these discoveries and will include eight consecutive Europa flybys through February 1999, followed by four Callisto flybys and one or two Io encounters in late 1999, provided the spacecraft remains healthy. "The Galileo Europa mission really builds upon the success of the prime mission which has forced us to re-think many of our perceptions of the Jovian system," said Galileo project scientist Dr. Torrence Johnson. "We've acquired a tremendous pool of knowledge about Jupiter, its magnetosphere and its four largest moons." The key findings of Galileo's primary mission include: * The existence of a magnetic field on Jupiter's largest moon, Ganymede; * The discovery of volcanic ice flows and melting or "rafting" of ice on the surface that supports the premise of liquid oceans underneath at some point in Europa's history; * The observation of water vapor, lightning and aurora on Jupiter; * The discovery of an atmosphere of hydrogen and carbon dioxide on the moon Callisto; * The presence of metallic cores in Europa, Io and Ganymede and the lack of evidence of such a core in Callisto; * Evidence of very hot volcanic activity on Io and observations of dramatic changes compared to previous observations and even during the period of Galileo's observations. "We look forward to providing even more fascinating science results over the next two years," said newly appointed Galileo Europa mission project manager Bob Mitchell of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), Pasadena, CA. JPL manages the Galileo mission for NASA's Office of Space Science, Washington, DC. The new images shown at today's briefing are available on the Galileo Internet home page at the following URL: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/galileo/ Members of the Galileo mission will answer questions from the public during a Galileo WebChat on Wednesday, Dec. 17 from 6 to 9 p.m. EST, at URL: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/galileo/chat/ -end-
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:46:45 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:17:57 -0500 Subject: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >From: "Scott Carr" <Scott_Carr@MCKINSEY.COM> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:02:36 -0500 >Subject: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >>Father Chris Corbally, an English Jesuit who is the observatory's >>deputy director, said: "If civilisation were to be found on other >>planets and if it were feasible to communicate, then we would want to >>send missionaries to save them, just as we did in the past when new >>lands were discovered." >>Now that's a truly FRIGHTENING thought!!!!!! >Hmm. I hope that the ET's aren't missionaries here to "save" us... >-Scott Well, Scott, Turnabout IS fair play, isn't it! They might just demolish the Vatican and all churches and "convert" us to Xyrogzianity just as the Catholic priests "converted" the native people in the new world. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Planes Search For Giant Meteor In Greenland From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:51:46 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:19:19 -0500 Subject: Planes Search For Giant Meteor In Greenland >From USA TODAY December 16. URL: http://www.usatoday.com/life/science/space/lss201.htm ******* Planes search for meteor in Greenland COPENHAGEN, Denmark - Danish Air Force planes searched the vast white expanse of southern Greenland on Tuesday for traces of a meteor believed to have struck the ice-capped island. The search was prompted by a giant flash that split the darkness about 5 a.m. Dec. 9. The flash was reported by three fishermen working off Greenland's east coast. A parking lot surveillance camera in Nuuk, the territory's capital on the west coast, also recorded a brief illumination at that time. "According to the accounts, the flash was so huge that we have good reason to believe that this is a giant (meteor)," said Bjoern Franck Joergensen of the Tycho Brahe Planetarium in Copenhagen. Joergensen said it probably was "a one-piece, solid meteor" that crashed. Most meteors travel at more than 7,500 mph and explode or break up as they enter the atmosphere. Joergensen would not speculate on how large the meteor may have been. The search has been hampered by heavy snowfalls that could easily bury even a large meteor or obscure its crater. About 85% of Greenland is covered by an ice cap. The search of the southern portion of the island was suspended Monday due to a blizzard, but resumed Tuesday. Greenland, a semi-independent Danish territory, has been hit by enormous meteors before. At the begining of the century, a U.S. expedition led by Robert Peary found a huge meteor in northeastern Greenland, and a Danish expedition found a 22-ton meteor in 1963. By The Associated Press =B0More Science and astronomy coverage =B0Go to Science digest =B0Go to Life front page Front page, News, Sports, Money, Life, Weather, Marketplace =A9COPYRIGHT 1997 USA TODAY, a division of Gannett Co. Inc.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: Alien Doctor On Uranium Diet Fails To Cure From: Edoardo Russo <edoardo.russo@torino.ALPcom.it> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:48:01 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:23:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Alien Doctor On Uranium Diet Fails To Cure Hello All! >From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 13:25:53 +0200 >Subject: Alien Doctor On Uranium Diet Fails To Cure Elderly >PESCARA, Italy (December 5, 1997 5:59 p.m. EST http://www.nando.net) - >Two elderly Italians paid out more than $367,000 on uranium to feed an >extra-terrestrial doctor they had been told would cure their ailments. Well, indeed: the two men behind the fraud (the third culprit is the woman partner of one of them) are old acquaitances of Italian ufologists, since they've been doing similar affairs since at least the late '50s. It's the well known story we call "the Pescara clan", though it was in part organized in Milan. The boss was "Prof.". B.S., variously posing as a psychologist, a book writer, a philosopher. He had uncommon magician trick abilities and was able to convince a lot of people that he was in contact with aliens, communicating to him via radio interferences (voices) or materializing objects in closed rooms. The first version of the story (the most known one) was that there were two species of aliens, battling against each other: the bad C.T.R. and the good W56, the former attacking earth and the latter defending us. Unfortunately, the W56 ere often defeated and needed help from the few earthlings aware of the plot. Money soliciting for "wounded alien pilots" was but the most simple part of the fraud, but dozens of businessmen and professionals in Rome, Milan and other towns did contribute (some of them for years, and for thousands of $ value). Sometime followers were asked to do strange things (like building plane models to be sold for the cause; or transporting unusual materials). Often were they encouraged to buy a "protector", that is a small bottle containing a yellowish liquid: if you put it within your hat or under your car's roof, it might save you from hazardous radiations emitted from the bad CTR's. Miracle cures were claimed for cancer and other diseases, thanks to the good aliens' advanced scientific knowledge. An impressive number (a suitcase full) of unbelievably clear, daylight saucer pictures (and even some motion picture) were shown at the believers' meetings (organized in small groups, unbeknown to each other). Personal sightings of spacecrafts, even of aliens, were also reported, and at least one man claimed to have piloted a scout-ship. Once a bus full of such contributors did leave for Pescara, where the entrance to one of W56 underwater bases was hidden below a gas pump, for a guided tour. But as soon as the "guide" jumped off the bus, he was back shouting "CTR's are attacking now. Out of here!" and the bus had to return home in a hurry. Phone calls and letters from the ET's were also part of the fake. And some members of the hoax group are suspected to have menaced and scared UFO witnesses, generating MIB stories in the early '60s. In due time, some of the victims realized they had been hoaxed and managed to get some of their money back. But most never tried, fearing for ridicule to destroy their lives (we've known and interviewed a prominent lawyer, a bank director, a university professor, etc., who were among the victims). In the '70s the "Pescara clan" remained much more quiet, but actually did keep on other similar, yet non-UFO-related frauds. The one ruining them was much more recent, and once again involved their old alien friend, Sygir, helping an elderly man to recover from was but a depression, if he could afford the cost of uranium food the ET MD needed. Such a long and complex story had some influence on Italian ufology between late '50s and early '60s: among their hoax cases reported also abroad were pictures of low-flying saucers allegedly taken in 1961 by noted TV journalist Bruno Ghibaudi; the ones by Milan painter Gaspare De Lama in 1962; and one of the "Pescara pictures" somehow found its way to the Project Blue Book files. Our very thick file about that unfortunate story counts some thousands pages, plus hundreds of pictures, but a great part of it has to remain confidential. That was for the "little history". Best regards Edoardo Russo Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici CISU, Casella postale 82, 10100 Torino - tel 011-3290279 - fax 011-545033 http://www.arpnet.it/~ufo e-mail: edoardo.russo@torino.alpcom.it
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 CORSO (in Italy at a UFO conference) From: Edoardo Russo <edoardo.russo@torino.ALPcom.it> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:19:39 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:25:37 -0500 Subject: CORSO (in Italy at a UFO conference) Hello Philip! At 15.23 15/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:21:16 +0000 >From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: CORSO >Is there any way that you can help me locate and address, phone, >fax or e-mail for Colonel Philip J. Corso. >I'm in the process of setting up some speakers for a UFO >conference in the UK and we would like to invite Colonel Corso. The fastest way should be to ask your good friends Maurizio Baiata and Roberto Pinotti, of Centro Ufologico Nazionale (CUN), since they hosted what apparently is the first public appearance of Philip Corso at an "International conference: the Contact", in Montesilvano (Italy) on November 8 and 9, last. Not only the elderly gentleman did attend and present two papers in two days, but he was also lenghtily interviewed at the Italian national TV (where he confirmed to astonished newsmen that of all his activities nothing was left written, since all orders and communications were verbal) and even answered questions from the public at the conference. There he shared the chair with such known celebrities of present-day scientific ufology made in USA like William Hamilton III, his abductee wife Pamela, Sgt. Bob O'Dean and col. Wendelle Stevens, who presented their usual stuff. Old glory Desmond Leslie was also there (still supporting Adamski's reliability, after all those years), as well as Mexican contactee Carlos Diaz, whose pictures of "spaceships of light" Corso told were authentic because of a detail he had never mentioned before: as Diaz says, the aliens are part of the craft and their four fingers control each a color, since craft propulsion works through color emissions. Ah! Once-again-announced Ray Santilli was (once again) not there, but nobody worried about that. I am sure that Baiata/Pinotti can help you to contact Corso because their publishing society Futuro is going to publish the Italian edition of Corso's book, translated by Maurizio Baiata. If you are also interested in the unexpected synergy between Corso and Diaz, you may also ask them for Carlos Diaz' address. Best regards Edoardo Russo Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici CISU, Casella postale 82, 10100 Torino - tel 011-3290279 - fax 011-545033 http://www.arpnet.it/~ufo e-mail: edoardo.russo@torino.alpcom.it
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs From: "skyeking@aye.net" <skyeking@aye.net> [Jerry Washington] Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:08:59 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:21:12 -0500 Subject: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs > Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:42:16 -0500 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs > >From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:29:00 +0200 > >Subject: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs > >Published at the website of The Sunday Times on December 14. URL: > >http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/Sunday-Times/stifgnnws01001.htm > >l?1509232 > >Pope builds telescope to find God > <snip> > >Father Chris Corbally, an English Jesuit who is the observatory's > >deputy director, said: "If civilisation were to be found on other > >planets and if it were feasible to communicate, then we would want to > >send missionaries to save them, just as we did in the past when new > >lands were discovered." > Now that's a truly FRIGHTENING thought!!!!!! > Bob I second that devotion... Jerry Washington Kentucky/MUFON
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 17 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:32:18 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:33:07 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:45:48 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Dennis, >Having written a number of books and counting many well-known >authors in my circle of friends, I should point out that the >numbers announced in press releases are usually grossly inflated. >Creative bookkeeping always seems to apply in these matters, >and I have yet to talk to an author who claims to have actually >received the stated advance amounts. Bob: As far as I know, none of the instances of large advances that I mentioned appeared in press releases made by the publishers, but after the fact. >Even if the contract specifies $ XXXX for the advance, there >always seems to be a bunch of fine print at the end of the >contract allowing all sorts of things to be deducted from the >advance. I agree with you. But an advance is an advance. Either you get it in advance or you don't. >Then there is the little question of the publisher actually even >paying the advance. I know quite a few authors whose contracts >specified pretty goodly amounts for the advance but never actually >saw a penny of it. Then you've got some fools for friends, it would appear. Maybe you ought to stir a few attorneys into the social stew. If it's in writing, why wouldn't any self-respecting writer sue if he didn't receive a promised, contracted-for advance? For that matter, why would he/she finish and deliver the product without the advance having been paid? Makes no sense to me. If you're an author, just say No. No advance, no book. >So I always take these claims of the amounts authors get/got with >several big grains of salt. >Bob So do I. But surely you're not suggesting that huge advances don't routinely get paid, that people (aka authors) don't regularly make big bucks off books and subsidiary rights, that mini-series and movie and paperback rights count for nought? You should check out Birnes's cv sometime, BTW. The man's a master. Trust me. The Day After Roswell did not go out the front door without big bucks coming in through the rear door or windows -- or both. You don't think Birnes and Corso wrote their book and then went shopping for a publisher, do you? No way, Jose: its publication was too closely tied to Roswell's 50th anniversary. The marketing boys had that free tie-in well in mind when Pocket Books offered Birnes a contract. Then they both cobbled the book together because they got paid well to do so. You seem to think that authors can be had with a wave of the hand. My point is that publishers get had, too. Dennis PS: We've got a few authors on this list. Maybe they would like to weigh in with whether or not they got paid their promised advance? How about it Mantle, Devereux, Clark and Maccabee, and anyone else willing to chime in? You don't need to mention dollar amounts, BTW, just whether or not your publisher paid what they promised -- in advance. Mine did, and I'm working on another one with the same proviso: If your advance check doesn't clear my bank, then you don't get the book.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Re: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:02:13 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:25:42 -0500 Subject: Re: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release >From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates] >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:30:32 EST >To: updates@GLOBALSERVE.NET >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release >> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:31:17 +0000 >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> From: Ashley Rye <ashleyry@netcomuk.co.uk> >> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release <snippy> >> If there is any substance at all in ACC's recent statement, >> Robert, you may have to modify your views in the wake of >> forthcoming events, if not actually swallow your words whole... >> time will clarify your assumption that all this talk is some kind >The point is Ash, is many in the UFO community never met a >tale/rumor gossip/unprovable story that they didn't embrace. Which is their business and shouldn't concern anyone. >For example last year at this time we were being barraged with >Yellowbook/Christ is an ET/10,000 year history of ET dealings >with earth/and last but not least mass landings in the desert SW >on April 24th 1997. All of this posted on the web from "unamed" >but never-wrong-trust-with-my-life-high-level-top-drawer >intelligence community sources. Corso, Shulman et al. are not exactly unnamed sources, have phones, etcetera. When you use that phone you may find out that they have a place where they live and you can visit them and ask for every kind of documentation you like. >Then we had Lee Shargel and his (amongst others) ET radio waves were going >to bathe the earth on Jan 24th 1997 which would begin a new day for >humanity. I really hope you didn't buy into that. >Naturally because all these rumors/and gossip was posted on the Web >from unamed sources we should instantly treat them as gospel fact. But Corso/ACC is a different story. >Ash you hit it right when you started with "IF.." >W hat in fact will happen is the tales and stories will continue >from the ACC site BUT NO PROOF WILL BE FORTHCOMING. That is because people like Corso and Shulman are hardly aware of the existence of lists such as these, while its participants seem to think it is the center of the world. At least real investigators like Ed Wang and Bob Wolf have contacted ACC and satisfied themselves that the ACC case is genuine. >> of elaborate sales pitch, or something else. If it's hype, then >> they have gone to a vast amount of trouble to concoct all these >> elaborate stories, putting themselves in a delicate, expensive >> legal position, potentially undermining their credibility in the >> eyes of customers and competitors merely in order to attract, >It doesn't put them in a "delicate, expensive legal position" >even if its all untrue because nobody can sue them and win. >Their defense will be "Well we were only posting what our source >told us...Freedom of speech...blah blah. And what exactly do they gain by saying that their transcapacitor is of alien origin? Especially since only the UFO community is aware of that? And especially since UFO folks as potential buyers of ACC stuff are consumers while ACC is a company that has hardly anything to do with the consumer market? And how exactly do they compensate for the management time that ACC spends on this case? Personally I have worked in the information technology sector for three years, have two academic degrees, one in business (MBA) and one in management psychology. Futhermore, I have been a information technology journalists for the last five years and have since been under constant bombardment of PR crap coming from information tech companies. With this background I can conveniently that what ACC is doing is NOT a sales pitch. >> what, publicity? is this logical? Is it necessary to get >> involved in legal battles with the Air Force to promote sales? >Can anybody cite a legal case number so that the actual case file >could be looked up. As far as I know all we have is ACC's word >that they are in a case with the AF, and ACC's word that it >involves Roswell. You don't just have ACC's word, you also have Wang's word. And you also have the word of a couple of guys of FUFOR and Jared Anderson that the meeting with the USAF and DOD actually took place. Nonetheless, if such a document would be attainable, this would be progress. >> Are you implying that the break-in and death threats are further >> fabrications, and that the transcapacitor will have no influence >> on the future of computer technology, since it doesn't exist? >Again we have only ACC's word that all this is connected, that >death threats were in fact received. Yeah, of course, the shareholders of this 200 people company wouldn't have ditched a UFO nut/paranoid as a president by now, especially after he attributed the groundbreaking transcapacitor invention done by their own crack engineers to little green men. >> Perhaps we might wait and see for ourselves before agreeing with >> your statements unconditionally. >You are more then welcome to wait and see. >Many in the UFO community are still waiting and seeing for: >MJ-12, alien autopsy (you know Scamtilli still hasn't provided the >film clip to verify the films age inspite of repeated promised to everyone) >and the big ET reality announcement that was going to happen in 1974, >then 1977 after Spielburg's move was released, then in 1982 after ET, >then in 1988, then last year after the Mars life announcement .. and >I have skipped a wholebunch in between. Oh, please, stop this crap! One more thing. If I were Jack Shulman I would by now have progressed to the point where I would patent all the technology I could get from these 50 year old documents, sell it to the highest bidder and I wouldn't give a damn about offering proof to the UFO community. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Re: CORSO From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:02:11 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:26:58 -0500 Subject: Re: CORSO >From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] >Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 03:09:25 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: CORSO >>From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> >>Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:38:22 +0000 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:11:41 -0500 >>Subject: Re: CORSO ><snip> <snippy> >This man doesn't even know WHEN Roswell happened. He's not even >sure how many fingers the aliens had. He didn't even realize that >he was involved with the project of millennium until at least 40 >years after the fact -- when he started looking through his >diaries and papers! Oh yes, Corso has a right to have his say -- >but is it for us to give him a forum to promote his claims when >he offers not one shred of evidence? I don't think so. Practice >Responsible Ufology. Practise responsible Ufology and for instance organize conferences where people, including long time ufologists such as Mantle, can ask Corso for as much evidence as they like. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Rob Irving <RobIrving@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:39:23 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:30:12 -0500 Subject: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 04:05:57 +0000 > From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso Philip, > I hold Theresa and her work in very high regard as I know that > she, like myself and Bob, are only tring to get to the bottom of > things despite what you and others might belive. Do you ever ask why the bias and selectivity demonstrated by you, and especially your colleagues attracts so much criticism? Don't get me wrong, I love a good myth as much as the next guy, particularly the kind rooted in that netherworld between fact and fiction. Someone has noted in reviewing your book that its value as a record of all the lamest and unsubstantiated yarns that make up the Roswell story should not be underestimated. I agree. But let's not pretend that it represents any more than that, least of all, as your co-author, in his inimitable style, would have us believe: "THE TRUTH!!!" To get past the first bell with that elusive heavyweight your 'research' would at least have to acknowledge the few relevant facts that have been discovered so far, no matter how uneasily they may sit with the idea you're trying to promote. You were offered this opportunity, and you chose to ignore it, I imagine for quite valid commercial reasons. But please, don't now try to kid us that you, Bob, and Michael are only trying to get to the bottom of things. The book is what it is and fits well with its ilk. But such unlikely claims are disingenuous, and deserve the treatment they get. Rob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Re: Niels Bohr Institute On Qaqortoq Meteorite From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:13:34 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:42:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Niels Bohr Institute On Qaqortoq Meteorite Received via "alt.alien.visitors" December 17 at 18.28 local Danish time (GMT + 1 hour): ******* Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:13:55 GMT From: twitchb@worldnet.att.net Subject: Tunguska, was Re: Greenland Meteorite Fall Update Message-ID: <6791d7$akk@mtinsc03.worldnet.att.net> I thought this might be of some interest with the wacky claims being made for the Tunguska event of 1908. Press statement by Niels Bohr Institute, Geophysical Dept. 971215 20.00UT ----------------------------------------------------------------- A big meteor impact has probably occurred in Southern Greenland at 61 25N, 44 26W on Tuesday, December 9th app. 08.11UTC (05.11am local time). The position is on the ice cap app. 50 kilometers NE of Narsarsuaq Airport. The position has been determined on the basis of observations made by a Danish and a Norwegian trawler near the east coast of Greenland, and a Danish trawler at a position in the bay off Julianehaab. Based on fairly accurate direction findings and the fact, that the trawlers were situated on both sides of Southern Greenland it can be determined, that the meteorite fell on land. The relevant trawlers are: Halten Trawl, Norwegian at 62 05N, 41 10W Regina C, Danish at 60 55N, 51 35W Timmarut, Danish at 60 13N, 46 43W Observations of the satelite lighttrack from Nuuk indicates that the meteorite passed a bit south of Nuuk in southeasterly direction towards the mentioned impact site in Southern Greenland. Seismic disturbances have been observed on Svalbard and Finmarka (Norway). These tremors are observed at 08.21UTC and 08.23UTC and are assumed to relate to the impact or the passage of the meteorite through the atmosphere. The signals did not allow a seismic localization of the event. The observations are made by NORSAR (Norwegian Seismic Array), Kjeller, Norway. Fainter signals were observed in Finland and Germany. The seismic stations in Greenland (Sonder Stromfjord and Danmarkshavn) has no observations. Further seismic data will be collected from Iceland and Canada in order to confirm the visual localization. Observations from the satellites ERS1 and ERS2 are being planned. These satellites observe the surface of the Earth using radar. The flashes observed in conjunction with the meteorite were so bright as to turn night into daylight at a distance of 100 kilometers and can be compared to the light af a nuclear explosion in the atmosphere. However, we stress that there is no reason to belive other than natural causes. During the day, the position will be overflown by an ice reconnaissance plane, from the Ice Central in Narsarsuaq on its planned flight from Kap Farvel to Nuuk. The event can in size probably be compared to the Kap York meteorite, that in prehistoric time fell in Melville Bay, Sassivik south of Thule. Findings from the meteorite consist of a number of iron meteorites totalling 50 tons. One of these ironfragments can be seen in Copenhagen outside the Geological Museum. Collecting and studying material from this meteorite has great scientific value. It is fortunate that the meteorite fell on land, but a search on the ice cap is difficult and in winter impeded by bad weather and darkness. Since December 9th 30-100cm of snow has fallen in the area and before summer smaller fragments will be covered by 3 meters of snow. According to Danish law, findings of meteorite material must be turned over to the authorities, in this case they will be the property of the Greenland Home Rule. These investigations are coordinated by Geophysical Dept. at the Niels Bohr Institute, University of Copenhagen in cooperation with: Tycho Brahe Planetarium, Copenhagen. Copenhagen Astronomical Society National Survey and Cadastre, Denmark NORSAR, Kjeller, Norway Danish Center for Remote Sensing, Technical University of Denmark The information may be qouted, if the source is indicated.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 New Bob Lazar and Area 51 Website From: mrivaldi@earthlink.net, Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:32:43 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:51:15 -0500 Subject: New Bob Lazar and Area 51 Website Received via "alt.alien.visitors" December 18 at 00.52 local time (GMT + 1 hour): ******* Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:29:56 +0000 From: Matt Rivaldi <mrivaldi@earthlink.net> Subject: Bob Lazar and Area 51 Message-ID: <3497EFEC.16F@earthlink.net> Tune into the only nonlinear biography of Robert Scott Lazar and SFour. Featuring five years of graphics, movies, and interviews. http://www.boblazar.com The site will officially open Jan. 1st. So bookmark it early.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Re: New Energy Researcher 'Dies' From: Glenn Joyner <infohead@airmail.net> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:53:20 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:54:50 -0500 Subject: Re: New Energy Researcher 'Dies' Greetings EBK, List, and Terry: >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:26:17 -0800 >From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: New Energy Researcher Dies [snip] >And now I have learned that Dr. Paul W. Brown, inventor of the >resonant nuclear generator (patent #4,835,433) was killed by an >explosion in his lab last week. >Overunity energy research is rapidly becoming a most hazardous >profession. I just got a note from one of our old buddies, Jerry Decker of KeelyNet, concerning this. Apparently, there is some question as to the validity of this report of Dr. Brown's death. Jerry has promised to let us know what he finds out further, but you might be interested in seeing what he has already received on this. Here's an excerpt of some mail I got from Jerry this morning... =============================================================== Hi Glen! I made the mistake of trusting an email posted to KeelyNet...Dr. Brown is apparently alive, won't be SURE until I talk to him direct. Details are posted at: http://www.keelynet.com/energy/pbrown.htm =============================================================== The above, when perused, really has this old butthead wondering what the heck is going on. It appears that SOMEONE, on one side of the issue or the other, is pulling some seriously morbid shenanigans. Hopefully we'll know something further soon. Regards, Glenn Joyner Dallas, Texas P.S. You folks check out the newly-redesigned UFO-World. We're proud to have recently been selected as a featured site by UFO Magazine's WebWatch columnist, Glen Boyd. (See "Awards" at the site.) ******************************************** ** Visit : http://ufo-world.simplenet.com ** ** It's a SERIOUS look at UFO phenomena ** ********************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Re: CORSO From: Peregrine Mendoza <101653.2205@compuserve.com> [Peter Brookesmith] Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:39:25 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:58:14 -0500 Subject: Re: CORSO The Duke of Mendoza presents his compliments & best wishes to one all for the approaching season of Mammonmas. The Duke is a trifle preoccupied but had trouble controlling his left eyebrow at this: >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:38:22 +0000 >From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: CORSO >My aim of any conference is to allow people to put their >information across and then allow those in attendence to decide >whether or not it's bullshit. In that case the Duke would like to know why it is that his personal Grace, along with such as Messrs Rimmer, Rogerson, Roberts, French, Hutchinson, Irving, Ridpath & Madame Blackmore, to mention a few in the UK, or Messrs Kottmeyer, Klass, Russo, Shaeffer, Oberg, Van Utrecht, Stacy, Lagrange and many others of like mind from over the sea never seem to get invites to appear at your famously dispassionate and disinterested gatherings. Nothing to do with the heathen infidel unbelievers being too likely to upset the faithful, or even bad for the gate, I suppose. Perish the thought. Yours &c Prophylactic D. Masticator Marrowbone Vendor
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Increased Large Meteor Activity? From: Bryan Butcher <being@concentric.net> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:10:53 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:00:46 -0500 Subject: Increased Large Meteor Activity? > Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:22:46 -0800 > From: Kenny Young <task@fuse.net> > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Meteorite suspected in fatal house fire > Updated 5:01pm EST December 16, 1997 > Meteorite suspected in fatal house fire > BOGOTA (Reuters) - A meteorite may have triggered a fire that > killed four small children in central Colombia, local media > reports said Tuesday. Has anyone noticed an increase in large fireballs recently? Has anyone also noticed we are currently arriving to the point in space where Comet Hale-Bopp was in late March? If I remember correctly, astronomers were laughing at the doomsayers who predicted Hale-Bopp would collide with the Earth...and justly so! The Great Comet of 1997 passed on the opposite side of the sun...but also crossed near the plane of the Earth. I can't find the webpage showing an animation of this...but I remember seeing it when Hale-Bopp was heading toward us early in the year. I will attempt to locate it. In March I told my wife to get ready for December...when we passed through the tail of the comet. It was the largest comet ever recorded....do we know the effects of meteor activity on Earth after the passage of such an object? cheers, Bryan! -- _________________ interests - - - - ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Dreamsenses: The Home of Being! - http://www.raccoon.com/~bryan The Des Moines Astronomical Society - http://www.sciowa.org/~dmas The Near Pathfinder Anomaly Analysis Group - http://www.mufor.org/ares _________________ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 07:14:07 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:08:14 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:49:14 -0600 (CST) >From: "George Fergus" <fergus@mail.ccrl.mot.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Regarding Corso's motives: >True, we do not know exactly how much money Corso received as an >advance for his book "The Day After Roswell", nor could he have >known ahead of time how much he would currently be receiving in >royalties. >We do know, however, that Corso's original manuscript was >entitled "I Walked with Giants: My Career in Military >Intelligence". Senator Strom Thurmond claims that this is the >book for which he originally wrote an introduction, and that it >contained no conspicuous references to Roswell or UFO's. >Why do you think Corso changed the entire thrust and title of his >book, because he suddenly felt a burning desire to expose the >truth about Roswell, or because his UFO buff co-author suggested >that the new version would be more successful and make more >money? >-George Fergus How do you know that the book under the original title would have sold less well? How do you know that is was William J. Birnes suggested the other story? And since when is William J. Birnes a UFO buff? And when are the negativists in this thread going to rise above the usual level of Internet twaddle for a change and come up with some proof that this book was a hoax? In answer to your question, the former possibility is the most likely of the two. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:22:14 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:09:52 -0500 Subject: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:46:45 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >>From: "Scott Carr" <Scott_Carr@MCKINSEY.COM> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:02:36 -0500 >>Subject: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >>>Father Chris Corbally, an English Jesuit who is the observatory's >>>deputy director, said: "If civilisation were to be found on other >>>planets and if it were feasible to communicate, then we would want to >>>send missionaries to save them, just as we did in the past when new >>>lands were discovered." >>>Now that's a truly FRIGHTENING thought!!!!!! >>Hmm. I hope that the ET's aren't missionaries here to "save" us... >>-Scott >Well, Scott, >Turnabout IS fair play, isn't it! They might just demolish the >Vatican and all churches and "convert" us to Xyrogzianity just as >the Catholic priests "converted" the native people in the new >world. >Bob Sorry Bob, it's a lot more complex than that! In order for the aliens to do it, "just as the Catholic priests" first they'd have to kill most of us off with infectious diseases that our immune systems are unprepared for, then they'd have to burn all our books and any records of our civilization, then they could rob us, rape us, enslave us and kill us! But that's only if they want to do it the 'old fashioned way!' <G> John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Re: 'Murderous Meteors' From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:25:05 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:15:42 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Murderous Meteors' > Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:55:46 -0800 > From: Kenny Young <task@fuse.net> > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: MURDEROUS METEORS > Of considerable interest to UFO researchers is the > disproportionate numbers of 'meteor sightings' as of recent, with > new episodes and events appearing across newsires almost weekly. Disproportionate numbers? Based on what? I have been tracing and cataloguing newsclips back to the Charles Fort era and even into the 18th and 19th century from both the popular media as well as the scientific media. I have over 100,000 newsclips at my immediate disposal. As far as I know, there are no "disproportionate numbers of 'meteor sightings'". What is your source of data for that statement? And if these events have been identified as meteor sightings they would be IFOs and there the interest to UFO researchers would rest. Where do you get the impression that IFOs would be of considerable interest to UFO researchers? > Of concern is the 'murderous meteor' episode from Bogota, > Columbia, reported by Reuters News Agency on December 16, 1997. > The article states that a meteorite may have triggered a fire > that killed four small children. May have triggered a fire? How does that make a meteor "murderous" since the case is still being investigated? Sounds like a lot of sensational hype to me. [article snipped] > One thing which caught my attention was the reference made by > Capt. Carlos Augusto Rojas of the fire department in Pitalito, > who stated that 'three fireballs' were in the sky when they > arrived to fight the blaze. This is most odd, and seems to > indicate a rain of meteors over one localized community for an > extended time frame (time from which the meteor hits house and > starts fire until arrival of the fire department). How likely > are the odds of something like this happening within a small > area? The likelyhood is that meteor showers last entire nights and cover at least hundreds if not thousands of square miles of Earth. The Captain's testimony supports that. The meteors he saw were in the distance. That would indicate that they were probably hundreds of miles away and not over the village where the house caught fire. There is nothing in the news article that indicates the "meteor shower" was localized over one village and one village alone. > In researching my files on 'MURDEROUS METEORS,' I found an > extraordinary event happening in Teheran, Iran on August 15, 1951, > in which a rain of meteorites killed twelve persons, injured > nineteen and took a heavy toll of livestock near Shiraz, in > southwestern Iran. The event was reported by Iranian newspapers > and The United Press. Sixty-two houses were said to have been > destroyed by the meteoric shower. Okay then, what is the actual source of your story? Wish to share that with us? You have offered nothing that someone can readily trace for its authenticity. Any reason why you fail to share the actual source with us? > An Alabama woman reportedly was bruised by an incoming space > projectile in 1954. Why does that make this incident a "murderous meteor" or filed that way? Again, what is the source? > In July of 1988, scientists at Battelle Memorial Institute in > Columbus, Ohio investigated an incident in which a fist-sized hole > was punched through the roof of a house under construction in > Highland County, Ohio. Why does that make this incident a "murderous meteor" or filed that way? Again, what is the source? > In 1992, a 28-pound chunk of extraterrestrial rock pierced through > a car fender in Peekskill, N.Y. Why does that make this incident a "murderous meteor" or filed that way? Again, what is the source? > UFO Research > http://home.fuse.net/task/ UFO Research? Really? It sounds more like IFOs hyped into some sensationalistic tag to exploit the gullible. Let us know when you start getting serious about your "research"? Ed Stewart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart egs@netcom.com | So Man, who here seems principal alone, There is Something | Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) | 'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. --------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Alfred's Odd Ode #205 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:37:48 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:44:24 -0500 Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #205 Apology to MW #205 (For December 18, 1997) Where is the wisdom; what is the cost; where are you wrong, and how are you lost? What is the problem, what's to be gained? What's the prognosis; why then abstain? Why are you scared? What's been foretold? Where is your courage? When are you bold? What is the consequence? What's the big deal? Why must you struggle to see what is real? How are you hoodwinked? What do you give? Why all the guns, and why hide the shiv? Why is John Ford put away in their keep? Why do you follow along like mute sheep? Why are you shallow; why are you here? Will it be later you're laughing through tears? Lehmberg@snowhill.com Sometimes you get a bit of E-mail that makes you feel you're beating your head on a broken glass wall. Through my tears, I laugh. -- Explore the Alien View? http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/ "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake, and laughing through pain's tears.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Hunt for that alien ashtray From: ufo1@juno.com [Jack Sargeant] Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 07:50:57 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:51:29 -0500 Subject: Hunt for that alien ashtray Greetings to the list. I offer some personal thoughts to the never-ending question of extraterrestrial visitors, past or present... (4304) Thu 18 Dec 97 7:31 By: Jack Sargeant To: All Re: Hunt for the alien ashtray St: Local ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted to Fido UFO [BBS] conference. What would it take to convince skeptics that aliens are visiting us? (Or have visited us in the past.) The answer depends on the individual skeptic. Some skeptics are so devoted to their anti-alien cause, as to be totally unconvincing. Do I want to label these extremists? ...No, because the name would be as insulting as the occasional use of the expression, "FTB" for "foaming true believer." ...A very insulting name for a believer who is adamant in his belief that aliens are either here, or have visited us in the past. There is evidence of such visits that are viable, but this "evidence" does not constitute proof, and is still nothing but curious speculation. An example of said evidence is to be found in the form of drawings on cave walls which may or may not be authentic, and if authentic, may not depict the suggested event. ...Such as the famous drawing of an alien astronaut in his rocket ship. ...Or a humanoid wearing what appears to be a space suit, complete with bubble head-dress. Some books have been debunked as being inaccurate to say the least. Other evidence is in the form of UFO reports that have not been convincingly explained. There are thousands of these unexplainable reports in the offering. Of some small value is the constant public interest in the subject, and the media exploitation in the form of sci-fi movies, documentaries depicting the unanswerable questions combined with even more questionable evidence. The bottom line here is, the public seems to want to believe in aliens very, very much. This, in my opinion is demonstrative of a dissatisfied society, unhappy with the world situation, and having little faith in their government. ...Something that has always been there, and likely to never change. Do not confuse temporary patriotism during war years with faith in one's government. The difference is very noticeable. ...Especially from a civilian standpoint of view. So, as long as we have this type of population interest in aliens, aliens who would bring to us cures for our diseases, technology that would make life easier for everyone, and any other benefits one could expect from a benevolent, advanced technological race of "visitors." So, about that alien ashtray... Nothing convincing has been found in the 50 years since Roswell, and no promise is in the offing. Keep the faith, all ye believers, the gods are still out there... ...Somewhere. Jack Ask your sysop to pull in BAMA, where all the UFOs are going --- * Origin: -=Keep Watching the Skies=- ufo1@juno.com (1:379/12)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: natural.state@erols.com [Melanie Mecca] Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:14:10 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:56:43 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:47:16 -0700 > From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) > To: Updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > > From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] > > Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:10:55 EST > > Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:12:33 -0500 > > Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > > From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) > > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:35:33 -0700 > > Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:42:04 -0500 > > Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >If the man is having trouble differentiating > months from years and remembering which continents he's been to > then it poses a real serious problem for his credibility. I know > that military records can quite often contain incorrect > information (I think Kevin Randle presented good evidence for > this awhile back) but if so these are big errors. So either his > memory is failing him, his notes are wrong, he's been duped by > his co-writer, or he's trying to dupe all of us. Gotta be one of > those. > Corso's cloud does have a silver lining however, I'd heard some > folks associated with CAUS had been using Corso to pound on the > Defense Department and try to initiate a grand jury > investigation. The nice thing about this is it can be used as > legal fuel against the cover-up because Corsos's claims > (irrespective of his veracity) could conceivably assist in the > release of certain documents. Peter Gersten and Larry Bryant have > been working on this independantly I believe. And, it's an ill wind that blows nobody good, right????? ;)> Perhaps the career inaccuracies are really fond embellishments of a cherished life's path - if it was important to you and you were 80, perhaps you'd exaggerate too (military whoppers can be the same size as fishermen's tales, I hear). If Corso is not telling the whole truth about his military career, there may be different reasons for that. As for evidence, could he have been "discouraged" for offering up any hard proof in the book, since the military did know about the release of the book (classification check-in, it goes on for life if your tickets were impressive)? Also, if the two years was his only stint with UFO artifacts, he probably doesn't know about Ufology or other cases. And that could be because he saw the hard evidence & didn't feel any need to verify the visitors existence beyond that - like a person who was totally uninterested in UFOs, has a major sighting, then "believes" but feels no need to pursue the subject. BTW, I am not stating as my opinion that everything in the book is gospel or that Corso is George Washington (cannot tell a lie), simply taking my typical working perspective - "what if it's true?" As for the coverup, here are a few interesting tidbits: a friend of mine is married to a man who has worked 'black projects' for six or seven years - always at Wright-Pat, etc. etc., lips always sealed, but he did recently say to her "Starwars wasn't developed for war on earth, it's intended for them (pointing at the sky)." She was at a holiday party last week and met lots generals and defense bigwigs from all over, all involved in these nameless projects. Being the intrepid individual she is, she asked every one she could buttonhole (without her husband's knowledge) about Roswell. Most of them gave very stock answers indicating denial or lack of knowledge. However, when she asked the question of a bigwig general, the head of the European Theatre, he said in all seriousness "That's nothing to what's really going on!" There must be some way to pry the lid off the government's closed mouth (pry the steel plate off the government's metal head????) Melanie
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Foreign Language UFO Articles Needed From: "Anthony Chippendale" <ufos@chipp.clara.net> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 07:40:20 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:58:48 -0500 Subject: Foreign Language UFO Articles Needed Hi, I'm looking for articles about UFOs that are written in French, German, Italian and Spanish, for my web site, UFOs Online (http://www.chipp.clara.net). If you have any articles in any of the above languages then I'd appreciate it if you could let me know where I can find them or email them to: ufos@chipp.clara.net Thanks, Anthony Chippendale ************************************* The Truth Is Out There... Visit UFOs Online, at: http://www.chipp.clara.net
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:01:38 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:59:57 -0500 Subject: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs > From: werd@interlog.com [Drew Williamson] > Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:29:13 -0500 (EST) > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs > >From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:29:00 +0200 > >Subject: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs > >Published at the website of The Sunday Times on December 14. URL: > >Pope builds telescope to find God > What a sad story! A religious order that oversees hundreds of > millions of people, the vast majority of which are destitute. > Women who are told to bear children ad-infinitum; hungry children > dressed in tatters, who have little or no opportunity to improve > there lot in life. The legions of followers who have scraped and > scrimped to give to the church only to have it squandered on > something of absolutely no benefit to them! Wouldn't =A35m be > better spent on food, clothing and shelter? > The irony of this story is overwhelming given this religious > order's oppression of Galileo's discoveries at the time! Amen, brother, Amen! Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Whereabouts of Phillip Robertson? From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:59:30 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:01:52 -0500 Subject: Whereabouts of Phillip Robertson? Greetings List Does anyone know the whereabout or address of Phillip Robertson who formerly published "Independent Aerial Phenomena Reseach?" Thanks. -- Jan Aldrich Project 1947 http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 UFO Research and Mapping Tool From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:19:47 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:18:53 -0500 Subject: UFO Research and Mapping Tool 'lo listmembers, To my knowledge, The most comprehensive and complete sightings database ever recordered on computer has been created by a software developer named Larry Hatch. It's a DOS program that maps the world and lists a record of sightings by year. It's catalog goes all the way back to Ezechial's sighting and contains sporadic sightings throughout the centuries but starts becoming dense around the 1700's. Actual recordings of waves don't really begin until the 1900's. The software also allows the user to add his own sighting data. Larry has put a lot of sleepless nights into this project and his support is ongoing. The program is called the UFO Research and Mapping Tool If interested information can be found at: http://www.flash.net/~joerit/docs/udemo.htm Jared.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Re: Ros... uh... _that_ place in the desert From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:15:12 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:00:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Ros... uh... _that_ place in the desert >Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:35:33 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ros... uh... _that_ place in the desert >>Can you imagine if this passes and somebody writes yet and again >>another Roswell book/article/video/paid lecture? > >>Example Roswell author/lecturer phone rings and the city attorney >>demands x% of his **gross** lecture door fees or they are going >>to file a lawsuit. > >I'm not worried. Previous attempts to trademark names, and >in one case a building, have conveyed only very limited >trademark rights. > >Besides, if they are successful, I'll just trademark my >last name and go after the oil company for infringement!! Bob- I think that Shell Oil has already copyrighted that name as a trademark, but give it a shot . . . .<g> On the other hand, I agree that efforts to copyright town or city names have proven to be more trouble than it's worth. I think that Hollywood, CA looked into it and decided not to pursue it because of the legal entanglements they could be drawn into. Of course, the Roswell City Countil may feel differently. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:02:55 PST Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:39:39 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:32:18 -0600 (CST) > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:45:48 -0500 > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> > >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >Dennis, > >Having written a number of books and counting many well-known > >authors in my circle of friends, I should point out that the > >numbers announced in press releases are usually grossly inflated. > >Creative bookkeeping always seems to apply in these matters, > >and I have yet to talk to an author who claims to have actually > >received the stated advance amounts.... > Surely you're not suggesting that huge advances > don't routinely get paid, that people (aka authors) don't > regularly make big bucks off books and subsidiary rights, that > mini-series and movie and paperback rights count for nought? You > should check out Birnes's cv sometime, BTW. The man's a master. > Trust me. The Day After Roswell did not go out the front door > without big bucks coming in through the rear door or windows -- > or both. > Dennis > PS: We've got a few authors on this list. Maybe they would like > to weigh in with whether or not they got paid their promised > advance? How about it Mantle, Devereux, Clark and Maccabee, and > anyone else willing to chime in? > You don't need to mention dollar amounts, BTW, just whether or > not your publisher paid what they promised -- in advance. Mine > did, and I'm working on another one with the same proviso: If > your advance check doesn't clear my bank, then you don't get the > book. Dennis, I was just as puzzled as you by Bob's comments. If authors were routinely being screwed out of their advances, there would be a national outcry, and probably even people who've never written books would hear about it in media coverage. I have written and published 11 books. In each case I received the advance specified in the contract, and in some cases I got further royalty money beyond the advance. Like you, I can only wonder if Bob's friends have ever heard of lawyers. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:14:11 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:29:51 -0500 Subject: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:22:14 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >Sorry Bob, it's a lot more complex than that! In order for the >aliens to do it, "just as the Catholic priests" first they'd have >to kill most of us off with infectious diseases that our immune >systems are unprepared for, then they'd have to burn all our >books and any records of our civilization, then they could rob >us, rape us, enslave us and kill us! >But that's only if they want to do it the 'old fashioned way!' <G> >John Velez No argument, John!! I just left out the other stuff in case little kids were reading <G>!!!! Maybe converting us is EXACTLY what is going on. They just do it differently???? Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Re: New Energy Researcher 'Dies' From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:41:08 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 20:04:15 -0500 Subject: Re: New Energy Researcher 'Dies' > Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:53:20 -0600 > To: updates@globalserve.net > From: Glenn Joyner <infohead@airmail.net> > Subject: Re: New Energy Researcher 'Dies' > I just got a note from one of our old buddies, Jerry Decker of > KeelyNet, concerning this. Apparently, there is some question as > to the validity of this report of Dr. Brown's death. > Jerry has promised to let us know what he finds out further, but > you might be interested in seeing what he has already received on > this. > Here's an excerpt of some mail I got from Jerry this morning... > =============================================================== > Hi Glen! > I made the mistake of trusting an email posted to KeelyNet...Dr. > Brown is apparently alive, won't be SURE until I talk to him > direct. Details are posted at: > http://www.keelynet.com/energy/pbrown.htm > =============================================================== Hi Glenn! Yes, Jerry was my source for this information. I received email today indicating that Jerry has spoken with Dr. Brown (via phone not a medium <g>) and apologized for the premature announcement of his death. Jerry also said that a similar hoax was perpetrated regarding the alleged death of Tom Bearden recently. Someone has a morbid sense of humor. BTW, the deaths of the other three researchers mentioned in my original post *have* been confirmed by multiple sources. Terry
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Re: UFO junk collector From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:28:14 PST Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 20:29:12 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO junk collector Hi, everybody, Recently someone on this list mentioned Jim Oberg and implied that he was a responsible UFO critic whom some ufologists were afraid to hear. I was reminded of a piece I wrote on Oberg for Fate, August 1982. For those who may be interested, the piece follows: UFO Junk Collector by Jerome Clark Although James E. Oberg's UFOs and Outer Space Mysteries (The Donning Company/Publishers, Norfolk, Va., 1981, 200 pages, $6.95, paperback) bears the subtitle "A Sympathetic Skeptic's Report," that is precisely what the book is not. In it Oberg shows himself to be of the Philip J. Klass school, an unsympathetic debunker. The one difference between Oberg and his mentor, however, is that Klass understands that in the UFO controversy the best evidence, not the worst, is at issue. Oberg seems little more than a devoted -- and humorless -- junk collector. He reads the National Enquirer and scrutinizes the writings of obscure crackpots and hacks, magically transforming ridiculous drivel into "UFO evidence" which he proceeds, with predictable ease, to demolish. Oberg, an active figure on the UFO scene, is well aware that wild stories about extraterrestrial bases on the moon and Venusian rapists play no part in the real case for the UFO but in his book he elects not to acknowledge that fact. He even professes to believe such yarns pose a threat to human welfare. Young people who foolishly fall for stories about ancient astronauts and a hollow moon "can and will be intellectually scarred for life with the bitter disillusionment that comes with learning that somebody you trusted, or a book in which you thought you had glimpsed the truth, was brazenly lying to you." Oberg does not speculate about the number of people who have been "intellectually scarred for life" after learning that persons they trusted, for example their parents, were "brazenly lying" about the existence of the Easter Bunny. But it gets worse. The space-age hoaxers are "all too reminiscent of the bizarre irrational and antiscience cults which preceded the fall of democratic Germany in the 1930s. Such irrationality and nonrationality must not be tolerated, humored, or laughed at." Those of us who reside in a world menaced by nuclear weapons, totalitarian governments, racism, poverty, pollution, and crime can only marvel at someone whose definition of a social threat is a flying saucer hoax in a tabloid newspaper. Is it possible Oberg is unaware that fantastic stories have always circulated in all human societies? Folklorists collect, catalog, and analyze such tales which, far from threatening the fabric of civilization, may in fact serve a positive social function. They entertain people and give them a brief respite from the burdens of the world. They are no more a threat to science than pulp novels are a threat to literature. If the crackpots and sensation-mongers pose a threat to serious ufology, it is because debunkers like Oberg use them to persuade the ufologically illiterate -- such as the guileless souls who will write the wildly uncritical reviews of this book in the mass media and in the science journals -- that ufologists are credulous fools possessed of a rabid need to believe and an irrational hostility to the reasonable arguments of those persons, Oberg among them, who euphemistically call themselves "skeptics." In reality a skeptic is someone who takes a conservative but open-minded view of things, doubting but not dogmatically denying.... A debunker, considerably more sure of himself, is able to assume implicitly that those who hold views different from his most likely do so because (as Oberg says of "UFO buffs") they are on "ego trips" and dwell "in a world of fantasy." Oberg's sole claim to the adjective "sympathetic" is that he is willing to concede, if only in passing, "Some ufologists have resolutely set off in the direction of scientific standards," and at one point he is kind enough to call me "highly principled" (thanks, Jim), but except for these rare and brief asides, the personalities, issues, methods, and conclusions of serious UFO research are as hard to come by as an honest man in a den of thieves. Far from being a "skeptic," Oberg takes a position that is extreme even for a debunker. He tells us early on, "The accusation (and such it is) that our present understanding of the universe cannot account for certain data must be established without a shadow of a doubt." Can he actually be saying that it is merely an "accusation" by irrationalists that science has not accounted for every single phenomenon in the universe? Presumably not, but clearly the (hardly radical) idea that science may not know everything, even some important things, makes him uncomfortable, and the effrontery of ufologists who argue that science has not dealt responsibly with UFO data infuriates him. Oberg wants us to believe that ufologists are unhappy because scientists "try to apply the same rigorous standards to UFO reports that they have demanded of their own work over the years." Precisely the opposite is true. Ufologists have complained not because scientists have applied "rigorous standards" to UFO study but because they haven't. Where UFOs are concerned, scientists frequently have not acted like scientists. Instead we have watched prominent astronomer Donald Menzel manipulate data, twist facts, and ignore inconvenient details in order to arrive at predetermined prosaic "solutions" to UFO reports. Ufologist Brad Sparks has shown how Menzel altered the details of his own sighting so that he could "explain" it. Even the UFOphobes of Project Blue Book were much amused at Menzel's inability even to properly identify known IFOs. No one argues that physicist Edward Condon approached the UFO question with anything remotely resembling scientific objectivity. Nor have debunkers tried to persuade us that the Carl Sagans and the Isaac Asimovs, their hostile anti-UFO stances notwithstanding, have contributed anything of scientific interest to the controversy, Oberg goes on, "Ufologists posturing as aggrieved victims .. see skeptics [sic] as `prosecutors' who, by being required to disprove UFO data, must establish the sufficiency of today's science in the face of UFO reports." In fact ufologists' principal objection to the debunkers has nothing to do with the "sufficiency of today's science." It has to do with the insufficiency of the debunkers' arguments, many of which are dishonest and incompetent and whose shortcomings have been richly documented documented in the serious literature.... A "key element of a true scientific theory," Oberg writes, "is its ability to be disproved or its 'falsifiability'.... Innumerable speculations have been voiced, published, and argued over [by ufologists]. None ... have ever deserved the name 'theory' since none of them has ever been formulated so as to be disprovable." Oberg first used this argument in his famous paper "The Failure of the 'Science' of Ufology" which won the Cutty Sark Prize and which was published in New Scientist. It was easily refuted by Ron Westrum, a sociologist of science well versed in UFO matters. Westrum wrote in Frontiers of Science (November/December 1980), "To demonstrate the falsity of his contention one has only to open The UFO Handbook (1979), written by Allan Hendry of the Center for UFO Studies. Here one finds careful critical examinations of data, hypotheses tested -- sometimes verified and sometimes proven wrong -- and theories scrutinized. Can it be that Mr. Oberg knows so little about ufology that he has never heard of such eminently falsifiable hypotheses as 'orthoteny', the 'Wednesday phenomenon', the 'law of the times', or the 'inverse population density' hypothesis?" Oberg presumably read Westrum's remarks, but he does not address them in his book. Oberg never responds to his critics, as a matter of fact, although he continually accuses ufologists of ignoring their critics. Chapter Six, on "The Sirius Mystery," is a word-for-word reprint of an article Oberg wrote in the November 1978 issue of Fate. The unsuspecting reader is nowhere informed that Robert Temple, who proposed the hypothesis Oberg is criticizing, published a detailed refutation which cast serious doubt on several of Oberg's key arguments ("In Defense of the Sirius Mystery," October 1980 Fate). In his one small effort to address serious evidence Oberg lists precisely six cases in one-paragraph summaries. In most instances he merely echoes Klass' purported solutions, ignoring as usual the detailed refutations in the literature. When he mentions the famous 1976 Iranian case, he claims ufologists consider it significant and evidential only because "it never could be investigated properly, and hence is immune from being solved." Naturally he does not document the accusation and neglects to tell us (1) even the United States government found the episode puzzling and (2) the case for UFOs, as Oberg is well aware, consists primarily of cases that can be and have been investigated properly and that so far have resisted solution. "I do not want to dwell on the regrettable fact that the UFO field has attracted more than its share of cranks and cultists," Oberg writes in what is surely the most hilariously hypocritical sentence in the entire book, "since this should not be a criterion for judging the authenticity of ufology itself." Of course Oberg "dwells on" the subject most of the book and employs it as his principal "criterion" for judging ufology. He goes on, "Other fields ... attract cranks and cultists, too, but I must say that most of them seem to police themselves somewhat more efficiently." That's an interesting observation. Unlike other of Oberg's assertions this one is open to empirical examination. First, however, it might be instructive to consider the experience of a friend of mine, Don Schmitt, who sometime ago asked Oberg and his debunker-colleagues Philip Klass and Robert Sheaffer if they could supply him with instances of internal criticism in the anti-UFO literature -- i.e., writings in which debunkers criticized weaknesses in other debunkers' work. In their replies the three, expressing varying degrees of confusion about the question (apparently the idea that they might subject their own work to skeptical scrutiny had never occurred to them), were unable to cite any significant amount of internal criticism although they assured Schmitt that such criticism is virtually nonexistent in the pro-UFO literature. In any case, the debunkers said, they were much too busy battling the irrational hordes to concern themselves with such matters. By way of contrast, proponents, whatever their shortcomings, have produced a not inconsiderable body of internal criticism. In fact, the best UFO debunking consistently has been done by UFO proponents.... The UFO journals often feature critical articles and reviews. The single most devastating critique of the UFO evidence and of the way ufologists have approached it, Hendry's The UFO Handbook, was written by a close association of J. Allen Hynek. Although debunkers predicted ufologists would shun Handbook, instead ufologists praised it effusively, showing that they are receptive to even the harshest criticism -- so long as it is reasonable criticism. One can argue (as I have) that there ought to be more internal criticism, but the fact remains that such criticism does exist among ufologists -- and does not exist among debunkers. Over the years Oberg has made much of the acceptance by some ufologists of "astronaut sightings" which Oberg subsequently determined to be bogus. This is a valid criticism although these reports hardly loomed as large in the serious case for UFOs as Oberg would have the unsuspecting think. Nor does Oberg (at least in his book) let us know that serious ufologists have not only accepted his negative conclusions but praised his investigative work. Instead he cites the usual cranks and hacks who continue to publicize the stories as if such marginal personalities were expressing views widely held in mainstream ufology. A telling example of Oberg's determination to make UFO proponents look stupid at any cost is in his treatment of an article published in Fate's November 1980 issue. In "Anatomy of a UFO Hoax" Karl T. Pflock recounted a wild contactee story concocted by a budding young science-fiction writer, Tom Monteleone, who succeeded in fooling a prominent UFO writer and several other saucer enthusiasts. In his conclusion Pflock explicitly stated that he had written the expose to warn UFO buffs "to read accounts of purported strange encounters with a large saltshaker at hand." But Oberg has Pflock saying quite something else. He takes one statement out of context -- an utterly noncontroversial passing observation that it's not a good idea to perpetrate hoaxes -- and cites it as evidence that Pflock is blaming Monteleone "for all the confusion.... This ironic complaint appeared to absolve the over-gullible investigators of any responsibility for careless and credulous acceptance of Monteleone's fabrications. Fate magazine seemed to be saying that it wasn't their fault that they were hoaxed." Pflock calls this "an incredible distortion of my views.... It should be obvious to anyone who read [it] ... that my article was devoted to demonstrating just how uncritical and credulous the 'investigators' involved in Tom's case were.... I do not 'blame' Tom for all the confusion." UFOs and Outer Space Mysteries is so densely packed with dubious allegations and questionable conclusions that it would take a review twice the length of this one to address them even briefly. But let's end with two representative examples: "We've learned," Oberg says, "that old cases are not particularly useful as sources of investigation. After 20 or 30 years people's memories are not what they were. Even a few days passing can hopelessly scramble crucial data in human memory banks. The things people remember are no longer accurate." But that's only if people are remembering things that have pro- UFO implications. If they're remembering negative data, then their memories are clear and accurate literally decades after the event in question. So Oberg has no trouble endorsing my expose ... of the famous UFO "calfnapping" of 1897 -- based solely on testimony recorded 46 and 79 years after the fact! Remember Oberg's complaint about unfalsifiable UFO hypotheses? Then consider his remarks on close-encounter claimants: "The witnesses seem to be sincere and deeply moved by their accounts, yet time and again psychologists have pointed out that such behavior is entirely consistent -- indeed, often a characteristic -- with fantasy and 'tall-tale-telling'." Of course psychologists (not to mention UFO debunkers) have also pointed out that the behavior of claimants who appear to be insincere and unmoved by their accounts is entirely consistent with, even characteristic of, fantasy and "tall-tale-telling." So the hypothesis that witnesses are lying is confirmed (1) when they act as if they believe what they are saying and (2) when they act as if they don't believe what they are saying. Debunkers, it appears, are permitted the luxury of making unfalsifiable hypotheses. Throughout the book, as in all the UFO-debunking literature to date, UFO proponents are held to one standard, their critics to another. A pro-UFO book as egregiously awful as this anti-UFO book would be dismissed as a waste of money, time, and paper. But UFOs and Outer Space Mysteries serves one useful purpose: it shows us the lengths to which an emotional partisan will go when mere facts and mere logic are not sufficient to support the argument. Both believers and disbelievers should take heed.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: "George Fergus" <fergus@mail.ccrl.mot.com> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:17:26 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:15:59 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 07:14:07 +0100 (MET) > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >Why do you think Corso changed the entire thrust and title of his > >book, because he suddenly felt a burning desire to expose the > >truth about Roswell, or because his UFO buff co-author suggested > >that the new version would be more successful and make more > >money? > How do you know that the book under the original title would > have sold less well? I don't know. The fact is that the change was made, and I'm asking folks to make their own judgment on why it was done. > How do you know that is was William J. Birnes suggested the other > story? Birnes states that he was originally put in touch with Corso in regard to a movie that was being developed regarding Corso's experiences in Army Intelligence during World War II and the Korean War, but that after developing a book outline for this, they talked about what other kinds of books they might do. For some reason the book outline as originally conceived was then abandoned. Of course, it could be that Birnes had absolutely nothing to do with this. > And since when is William J. Birnes a UFO buff? Birnes from his interview with CNI News, June 16, 1997, on his familiarity with the subject of UFO's before working with Corso: "I was a UFO literary and movie 'fan' with a cursory background into the research. I'd read Kevin Randle and Stan Friedman, saw all the relevant documentaries, knew the lore of Roswell and spoken with people in Roswell who had claimed to have knowledge of the 1947 incident." > And when are the negativists in this thread going to rise above > the usual level of Internet twaddle for a change and come up > with some proof that this book was a hoax? Since Corso claims that nothing was ever written down, there is no way to disprove anything that he says. He does not remember the names of any of the people or the projects at the various companies to whom he claims to have given UFO artifacts, so none of those companies' records can be checked to verify that those people or projects were there at the time. He does not provide any insider information on any of these projects, but only what one would find in any good encyclopedia. Mistakes in dates and names can be attributed simply to errors by Birnes attempting to fill in the gaps in the info he got from Corso. I don't see any way to either prove or disprove Corso. Do you? -George Fergus
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Re: OVNI Brazil: Brasilia's LETTER - From the I From: pandersen@idcresearch.com [Per Andersen] Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:18:38 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:30:56 -0500 Subject: Re: OVNI Brazil: Brasilia's LETTER - From the I The letter with a statement from the 1st World UFO Forum in Brasilia, Brazil, names a number of ufologists from the whole world supporting the statement. My name, Per Andersen, appears as a signing person. While I did attend and made a presentation at the UFO Forum, I DID NEVER SIGN THE LETTER NOR WAS I EVER PRESENTED WITH ITS CONTENTS. If I would have been asked, I would NOT sign the letter. The only conclusion can be, that nobody can take the list of signing person serious and thus the whole statement fails. I AM SHOCKED TO EXPERIENCE SUCH FRAUD WITHIN THE UFO COMMUNITY WITH MANY PERSONAL FRIENDS. Per Andersen Chairman Scandinavian UFO Information, Denmark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 18 Research Projects in Italy From: Edoardo Russo <edoardo.russo@torino.ALPcom.it> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:14:56 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:59:10 -0500 Subject: Research Projects in Italy Here follows a list of Research and Cataloguing Projects presently operated by officers of CISU (Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici), in order to let colleagues all around the world to know exactly who is doing what. For each one the coordinator's name, address, phone and (where applicable) e-mail are indicated. The list was prepared by Renzo Cabassi (CISU National Research Coordinator) and Edoardo Russo for the recently held 12th National UFO Congress ("Ufology as a Research Activity - Projects of Study and of Catalogue within CISU"), which took place in Bologna on November 22, 1997. * AIRCAT (cataloguing of all Italian pilot sightings, plus an international list for comparison purposes): MARCO ORLANDI, VIA DEGLI ORTOLANI 12/2, 40139 BOLOGNA, tel. 051-6240256, e-mail <ORLANDI@astbo3.bo.astro.it> * PROJECT DELTA (catalogue and file of Italian reports of polygonal shaped UFOs): ROBERTO RAFFAELLI, VIA BRASCHI 27, 47023 CESENA (FO), tel. 0547 25756 * PRE-UFO (catalogue and file of Italian unusual aerial phenomena predating 1900): UMBERTO CORDIER, CASELLA POSTALE 269, 17100 SAVONA, e-mail: umberto.cordier@usa.net * PHOTOCAT (catalogue and file of Italian photographic cases): MAURIZIO VERGA, VIA MATTEOTTI 85, 22072 CERMENATE (CO), tel. 031-771600, e-mail <mauverga@wolf.it> * FILMCAT (catalogue of Italian reports of filmed UFOs): GIOVANNI ASCIONE, VIA CASERTA - PAL.PINI SC. A, 81020 SAN NICOLA LA STRADA (CE), tel. 0823-451472 * ITACAT (catalogue and file of Italian UFO landing and close encounter reports): MAURIZIO VERGA, VIA MATTEOTTI 85, 22072 CERMENATE (CO), tel. 031-771600, e-mail <mauverga@wolf.it> * USOCAT (catalogue and file of Italian reports of unidentified submerged objects or water-related UFOs): : MARCO BIANCHINI, VIA C. ANGIOLIERI 9, 53100 SIENA, tel. 0577-46480 * UFO-EM (catalogue and file of Italian reports of effects from UFOs): STEFANO INNOCENTI, VIA COSTANZO CLORO 57, 00145 ROMA, tel. 06-5127566, e-mail: <s.innocenti@agora.stm.it> * PROJECT ANGEL HAIR (catalogue and file of Italian reports of angel hair, plus an international cases file and copy of all pertinent literature for comparison purposes): MASSIMILIANO GRANDI, VIA F. LIPPI 55, 52100 AREZZO, tel. 0575 352591, e-mail <massimiliano.grandi@usa.net> * TRACAT (catalogue and file of Italiani ground traces reports): MAURIZIO VERGA, VIA MATTEOTTI 85, 22072 CERMENATE (CO), tel. 031-771600, e-mail <mauverga@wolf.it> * PROJECT ITALIA 3 (investigation, filing and cataloguing of all Italian CE-III reports): PAOLO FIORINO, VIA BURIASCO 5, 10134 TORINO, tel. 011-3978684 * CRASH-CAT (catalogue of Italian reports of objects seen falling to earth from the sky): GIUSEPPE STILO, VIA ANTONIO CANOVA 264, 50142 FIRENZE, tel. 055-785709, e-mail <giuseppe.stilo@usa.net> * PROJECT OVNI/FA (catalogue of the Italian reports with military witnesses of a military involvement): PAOLO FIORINO, VIA BURIASCO 5, 10134 TORINO, tel. 011-3978684 * PROJECT 1978 (review and analysis of the great Italian UFO wave of 1978): RENZO CABASSI, CASELLA POSTALE 190, 40100 BOLOGNA, tel. 051-239088, e-mail <cabassi@mail.asianet.it> * UFOs IN SPACE (catalogue of all reported sightings by astronauts or in space): MARCO ORLANDI, VIA DEGLI ORTOLANI 12/2, 40139 BOLOGNA, tel. 051-6240256, e-mail <ORLANDI@astbo3.bo.astro.it> * OPERATION ORIGINS (library research for all UFO news items in the period 1946-1954): GIUSEPPE STILO, VIA ANTONIO CANOVA 264, 50142 FIRENZE, tel. 055-785709, e-mail <giuseppe.stilo@usa.net> * ITALIAN UFO BIBLIOGRAPHY (catalogue of all Italian books mentioning - even marginally - UFOs): MARCELLO PUPILLI, VIA SOLFERINO 5, 60015 FALCONARA MARITTIMA, tel. 071-913751, <p.pupilli@fastnet.it> * SCIENCE.CAT (international catalogue of articles on UFOs in the scientific journals): PAOLO TOSELLI, VIA MONDOVI' 4, 15100 ALESSANDRIA, tel. 0131-443856, e-mail <ptoselli@mbox.vol.it> * UFO & CINEMA (catalogue of Italian movies with a UFO content: FABRIZIO DIVIDI, CORSO ORBASSANO 249, 10137 TORINO, tel. 011-353364, e-mail <fabriziodividi@usa.net> * UFO & MUSIC (international catalogue of UFO contents in pop music): RICCARDO DE FLORA, VIA VICARELLI 4, 10137 TORINO, tel. 011-3094517 * UFO & ADVERTISING (international catalogue of UFO images/words in commercial advertising): PAOLO TOSELLI, VIA MONDOVI' 4, 15100 ALESSANDRIA, tel. 0131-443856, e-mail <ptoselli@mbox.vol.it> * FORTCAT (Italian catalogue and file of Fortean events, places, phenomena, people): UMBERTO CORDIER, CASELLA POSTALE 269, 17100 SAVONA, e-mail: umberto.cordier@usa.net * REGIONAL FILES (filing and cataloguing of all UFO/IFO reports on a regional basis) - National Coordinator: EDOARDO RUSSO, CORSO VITTORIO EMANUELE 108, 10121 TORINO, tel. 011-538125, e-mail <edoardo.russo@torino.alpcom.it> (+ 20 Regional and Provincial Directors) Most of the above coordinators are interested in sharing their own experience, data and difficulties with foreign colleagues working on the same areas. Best regards Edoardo Russo Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici CISU, Casella postale 82, 10100 Torino - tel 011-3290279 - fax 011-545033 http://www.arpnet.it/~ufo e-mail: edoardo.russo@torino.alpcom.it Search for other documents from or mentioning: edoardo.russo | orlandi
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Thoughts on making money in the UFO field [was: From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates] Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:12:58 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:03:34 -0500 Subject: Thoughts on making money in the UFO field [was: > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: "Serge Salvaille" <sergesa@connectmmic.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: CORSO > Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:25:40 +0500 > >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:38:22 +0000 > >From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: CORSO > Dear Philip, > Just a couple of questions arising from your reply to Rebecca... > 1. [...] > >If you think people are involved in conference organising to make > >money then think again. I dare say a few might be but I do not > >count myself as one of them. > The fact that one makes no money with a book on ufology has > already been discussed on the list. Now, I learn one makes no > money with conferences. How does one earn a living in ufology ? > Please understand "earning a living" and "making money" are the > same. Just a quick thought. Heard this tale for years how absolutly nobody makes "any money" with UFO books/magazine articles/lecturers etc etc. If this is all true, how does Stan Friedman (not picking on him, but using him as an example) who has stated that he quit his full time nuclear job in 1973 or 4 to lecture and write about Cosmic Watergate UFOs travel to his lecturers, make his house, car, insurance, utilities payments, and so on. Most likely he makes money, but like all of us, after his expenses are plugged in, actual cash in the bank is quite a bit less. The bottom line truth is YES PEOPLE DO MAKE MONEY IN THE UFO FIELD AND THEIR IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. Speaking of nuclear I know for a fact that they are advertising for a full time Nuclear engineer in Idaho for $3,750.00 per month -- which is considered peanuts by those working in Calif and the bigger areas states. Cheers, Robert Search for other documents from or mentioning: rgates8254 | sergesa |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Re: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates] Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:01:33 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:24:51 -0500 Subject: Re: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release > Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:02:13 +0100 (MET) > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release > >From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates] > >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:30:32 EST > >To: updates@GLOBALSERVE.NET > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: ACC's Transcapacitor Press Release <snip for brevity> > >For example last year at this time we were being barraged with > >Yellowbook/Christ is an ET/10,000 year history of ET dealings > >with earth/and last but not least mass landings in the desert SW > >on April 24th 1997. All of this posted on the web from "unamed" > >but never-wrong-trust-with-my-life-high-level-top-drawer > >intelligence community sources. > Corso, Shulman et al. are not exactly unnamed sources, have > phones, etcetera. When you use that phone you may find out that > they have a place where they live and you can visit them and ask > for every kind of documentation you like. Carso can't back up his claims with any documented evidence, other then his memory. As I recall he claimed he was head of the Army FTD for 2 years, then when his service record comes out we find out he was only in charge for a period of weeks, and gone part of it. <snip> > >Naturally because all these rumors/and gossip was posted on the Web > >from unamed sources we should instantly treat them as gospel fact. > But Corso/ACC is a different story. As for Shulman et al lets see where they claim to have gotten information from. Just look at some quotes from the ACC web site: "This is a story which, if true, could ultimately change.." "It's the Public's right to decide if it is, in whole or in part, or if theparty who related it to us, was portraying a fiction."=A0 "So, according to the story leaked by a reliable source to UFO-logy circles:" "UPDATE NOTE: It has been suggested that, after he left office, the US.." "It has allegedly been reported that it took a year or more for Bell Labs to then figure out how to commercially produce the miracle devices." "We haven't read the book, but we have been told it pretty much appears to coincide with the above ACC story, which was related to us by a Defense Communications Consultant who had access to the people at Bell Labs who he said were involved with the alleged "alien artifacts". "Since the time that Col. Corso was identified to American, new information, unconfirmed, has surfaced and been presented to us. Two people who wrote to us, claimed their fathers worked for Bell Labs, have identified to us, by unconfirmable email reports, ..." So the bottom line is its rumors/gossip and otherwise being posted on the ACC web site. THEY DON'T EVEN CLAIM IT TO BE FACTUAL. > >Ash you hit it right when you started with "IF.." > >W hat in fact will happen is the tales and stories will continue > >from the ACC site BUT NO PROOF WILL BE FORTHCOMING. > That is because people like Corso and Shulman are hardly aware of > the existence of lists such as these, while its participants seem > to think it is the center of the world. > At least real investigators like Ed Wang and Bob Wolf have > contacted ACC and satisfied themselves that the ACC case is > genuine. Personally I was always under the impression that Ed Wang was a promoter of the ACC tales and stories. I can "call" three different people and they will assure me that they have satisfied themselves about the actual location of the Roswell crash site...not the debris field. Naturally I would get three different answers with 39 reasons why the others were all wrong, misinformed etc. I would urge caution when others "assure" you. <snip> > And what exactly do they gain by saying that their transcapacitor > is of alien origin? Especially since only the UFO community is > aware of that? Free publicity not to mention the press release that went out to 4000 news organizations. So now if you believe their claims 4000 news organizations are aware of their claims plus the UFO community. >And especially since UFO folks as potential buyers >of ACC stuff are consumers while ACC is a company that has hardly >anything to do with the consumer market? And how exactly do they When I go to the ACC web site and see: ACC's "WINTER OF '97"=AE PC SALE! Prices start at: $299!! K6 / Pent-IIs: $599 ACC's NET-SERVERS FOR THE WAY WE WORK=AE! starting at: $1499 SPECIAL LOW-PRICE PC: ACC's EAGLE BEATS DELL, IBM...!! THE RIGHT STUFF: ACC's NEW LAPTOP is HALF the COST of IBMs 770...!! I somehow fail to see your point about how "ACC is a company that has hardly anthing to do with the consumer market." > compensate for the management time that ACC spends on this case? How much time is actually being spent on this case? From what I read on the ACC site they get much of their information on Roswell via e-mail and nobody has actually seen copies of the princeton evidence list. > > Personally I have worked in the information technology sector for > three years, have two academic degrees, one in business (MBA) and > one in management psychology. Futhermore, I have been a > information technology journalists for the last five years and > have since been under constant bombardment of PR crap coming from > information tech companies. With this background I can > conveniently that what ACC is doing is NOT a sales pitch. I to have been in the journalism field for the last 15 years and have seen all manner of PR stunts, ploys, and scams to attract attention to companies and their products. It appears that you happen to *believe* based on the assurances of Wang et al the ACC/Roswell story without having seen any of the *actual* evidence. This was my point all along. The UFO field is full of people who tell tales and stories, offer no evidence, and the gulliable people lap it up ala Yellowbook, Shargel, because it fits what they want to believe. > > >> what, publicity? is this logical? Is it necessary to get > >> involved in legal battles with the Air Force to promote sales? > > >Can anybody cite a legal case number so that the actual case file > >could be looked up. As far as I know all we have is ACC's word > >that they are in a case with the AF, and ACC's word that it > >involves Roswell. > > You don't just have ACC's word, you also have Wang's word. And > you also have the word of a couple of guys of FUFOR and Jared > Anderson that the meeting with the USAF and DOD actually took > place. Nonetheless, if such a document would be attainable, this > would be progress. Did any of these individuals **actually** go to the meeting, or are they just "believing" the ACC story based upon their web site posting or because "Ed Wang or Bob Wolf said...."? On their web site concerning this meeting they present an impressive list of "evidence" that was going to be presented. Has anybody actually seen it? Like I said before does anybody actually have the case number of the lawsuit so that it could be independently verified? Everything I have seen is "Well, Ed Wang said, based upon an e-mail with Schulman... blah blah blah. Or Schulman said on the blah blah radio show. Remember the poor amateur astronomer who claimed to have a photo of the companion object following Hale Bopp blah blah. He didn't check it out or verify it with anybody else, turned out untrue, but it didn't stop him from blathering it all over the radio. <snip> > >Many in the UFO community are still waiting and seeing for: > >MJ-12, alien autopsy (you know Scamtilli still hasn't provided the > >film clip to verify the films age inspite of repeated promised to > >everyone) and the big ET reality announcement that was going to > >happen in 1974, then 1977 after Spielburg's move was released, > >then in 1982 after ET, then in 1988, then last year after the Mars > >life announcement .. and I have skipped a wholebunch in between. > Oh, please, stop this crap! Agreed the crap should stop. We should ask that ACC present copies of the documented evidence. Still reminds me of Scamtilli. When asked to provide 1 (ONE) only frame from the film of the century to give to Kodak to examine, he tells people its either forth coming, or double talks them and still hasn't provided anything. > One more thing. If I were Jack Shulman I would by now have > progressed to the point where I would patent all the technology I > could get from these 50 year old documents, sell it to the > highest bidder and I wouldn't give a damn about offering proof to > the UFO community. PROOF that ACC is even patenting ANYTHING. I am sure that if a person checked with the patent office and found that ACC/Schulman has filed nothing, then Ed Wang would be telling us stories how the process is going to take 20 years or some drop dead date long into the future, and we won't see any documentation until 2017 blah blah or a similar minded story. My prediction is 6 months from now we will still be hearing pronouncements for Schulman, Ed "the conduit" Wang but nobody will present copies of any kind of evidence. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Re: CORSO From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates] Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:05:36 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:24:40 -0500 Subject: Re: CORSO > Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:02:11 +0100 (MET) > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: CORSO > >From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] > >Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 03:09:25 EST > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: Re: CORSO > >>From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> > >>Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:38:22 +0000 > >>Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:11:41 -0500 > >>Subject: Re: CORSO > ><snip> > <snippy> > >This man doesn't even know WHEN Roswell happened. He's not even > >sure how many fingers the aliens had. He didn't even realize that > >he was involved with the project of millennium until at least 40 > >years after the fact -- when he started looking through his > >diaries and papers! Oh yes, Corso has a right to have his say -- > >but is it for us to give him a forum to promote his claims when > >he offers not one shred of evidence? I don't think so. Practice > >Responsible Ufology. > Practise responsible Ufology and for instance organize > conferences where people, including long time ufologists such as > Mantle, can ask Corso for as much evidence as they like. So when Mantle asks "Carso" for evidence what does Carso say. "Well Phil, lets look in the crate of declassified documents that I brought with me to the conference." Nah, that will never happen. We will hear Mantle gush about what a nice guy Carso was, how the story sounded totally believable etc etc. Why his memory is as sharp as a 20 year olds blah blah. Cheers, Robert Search for other documents from or mentioning: rgates8254 | hvdp |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Jim Griebel <71541.2124@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 20:34:31 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:27:06 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:47:16 -0700 >From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso <snip> >One thing that really galls me is that I heard that Corso's book >was being sold directly out of the Pentagon book store and the >Wright Patterson AFB book store...is this an endorsement? I used to buy UFO books regularly at "military" bookstores, if the base actually had one and not just a book rack in the PX. (Now that I come to think of it the only places I can remember that had actual bookstores were a couple overseas and the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey.) They stocked pretty much what the equivalent civvie bookstores did. Why not? Military consumers tend to buy pretty much what civilian consumers do, apart from specialized items like _The Overseas Weekly_, a newspaper rather critical of the military in general but which was sold at all the installations I was stationed at. Enterprises like this on military bases are often run by civilian concessionnaires, who sell what sells -- if the signs were that Corso's book was going to sell well they'd stock it, along with _Playboy_, Tom Clancy's latest, and _The Royals_.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs From: Whitewolf <witewolf@neptune.on.ca> [Paul Whitewolf] Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 22:34:09 -0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:30:12 -0500 Subject: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:14:11 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:22:14 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs <snip> > then they'd have to burn all our >>books and any records of our civilization, then they could rob >>us, rape us, enslave us and kill us! >>But that's only if they want to do it the 'old fashioned way!' <G> >>John Velez >No argument, John!! I just left out the other stuff in case little >kids were reading <G>!!!! >Maybe converting us is EXACTLY what is going on. They just do it >differently???? >Bob Bob, you never cease to amaze me. You consistently make the most insightful observations... Regards, Paul. "If you can't laugh at yourself, you might be missing the joke of the century." ...Dame Edna, 1997.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Re: 'Murderous Meteors' From: Bryan Butcher <being@concentric.net> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:56:25 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:35:10 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Murderous Meteors' > Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:25:05 -0800 > From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: 'Murderous Meteors' > > Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:55:46 -0800 > > From: Kenny Young <task@fuse.net> > > To: updates@globalserve.net > > Subject: MURDEROUS METEORS > > Of considerable interest to UFO researchers is the > > disproportionate numbers of 'meteor sightings' as of recent, with > > new episodes and events appearing across newsires almost weekly. > Disproportionate numbers? Based on what? I have been tracing and > cataloguing newsclips back to the Charles Fort era and even into > the 18th and 19th century from both the popular media as well as > the scientific media. I have over 100,000 newsclips at my > immediate disposal. As far as I know, there are no > "disproportionate numbers of 'meteor sightings'". What is your > source of data for that statement? Ed... 100,000 newsclips is a tremendous resource! Can you sort these clippings and do a detailed analysis of fireball sighting trends over the past, say, 50 years? Is there a place the public can access these newsclippings? > And if these events have been identified as meteor sightings they > would be IFOs and there the interest to UFO researchers would > rest. Where do you get the impression that IFOs would be of > considerable interest to UFO researchers? Any increase in meteorite, and more importantly, bolide sightings could interest a great many people in many fields...for you to say it shouldn't interest UFO researchers is a bit harsh...yes? I would think people who spend a great deal of their time gazing upward would be curious about any astronomical, or artificial event in the sky. It wouldn't surprise me if many amateur ufologists are also amateur astronomers...like myself. > > Of concern is the 'murderous meteor' episode from Bogota, > > Columbia, reported by Reuters News Agency on December 16, 1997. > > The article states that a meteorite may have triggered a fire > > that killed four small children. > May have triggered a fire? How does that make a meteor > "murderous" since the case is still being investigated? Sounds > like a lot of sensational hype to me. It's not everyday a meteor causes a fire and kills four children. Would you rather listen to the street report from a large metropolitan US city? > <article snipped> > > One thing which caught my attention was the reference made by > > Capt. Carlos Augusto Rojas of the fire department in Pitalito, > > who stated that 'three fireballs' were in the sky when they > > arrived to fight the blaze. This is most odd, and seems to > > indicate a rain of meteors over one localized community for an > > extended time frame (time from which the meteor hits house and > > starts fire until arrival of the fire department). How likely > > are the odds of something like this happening within a small > > area? > The likelyhood is that meteor showers last entire nights and > cover at least hundreds if not thousands of square miles of > Earth. The Captain's testimony supports that. The meteors he saw > were in the distance. That would indicate that they were probably > hundreds of miles away and not over the village where the house > caught fire. There is nothing in the news article that indicates > the "meteor shower" was localized over one village and one > village alone. Good point...and probably quite valid and true. However, this does not preclude the possibility a centralized mass of debris fell in the immediate area. I believe large meteors can, and often do, break up into smaller particles once they reach the lower stratosphere. If the meteor is large enough (there is no mention of a larger bolide sighted prior to the fire), then the raining debris would be scattered in a fairly tight group...somewhat to a shotgun blast. <big snip of further data and requests for data verification> > > UFO Research > > http://home.fuse.net/task/ > UFO Research? Really? It sounds more like IFOs hyped into some > sensationalistic tag to exploit the gullible. Let us know when > you start getting serious about your "research"? > Ed Stewart Ed...what research can you provide that scientifically proves IFOs to be hyped sensationalism designed to exploit the gullible public? The Bogota incident is not exclusive...it merely took the lives of four young humans to gain some attention. If you were the children's parents, would you want a real answer as to why they died the way they did? Perhaps they were playing with matches? Perhaps some fireman wanted to get in on the South American UFO Enigma and hype the story for money... yeah... right... after he carried a little bundle of charred remains from a shanty shack. It's hard for me to accept this is the case...but perhaps I'm just too gullible. cheers, Bryan! -- _________________ interests - - - - ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Dreamsenses: The Home of Being! - http://www.raccoon.com/~bryan The Des Moines Astronomical Society - http://www.sciowa.org/~dmas The Near Pathfinder Anomaly Analysis Group - http://www.mufor.org/ares _________________ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 'Newsbytes' Release On ACC's Transpacitor From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 05:03:41 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:38:25 -0500 Subject: 'Newsbytes' Release On ACC's Transpacitor Found at: http://www.newsbytes.com/pubNews/97/105422.html According to its own description at http://www.nbnn.com/html_p/f_what.html Newsbytes is the largest and most comprehensive electronic news service covering the computer, interactive services, and telecommunications industries. Founded in 1983, Newsbytes has the timeliest and most extensive first-hand reported high-tech news files on the Web. Every business day there are 100 new reports written by the international Newsbytes journalism team. Each day those reports are folded into a 14-year archive of high-tech news dating back to 1983, an archive which is keyword-searchable by our members. This Newsbytes Website has the news first, before any of the 160+ online services, databases, or other publications licensed to publish Newsbytes news stories, so that we can guarantee our members first access to breaking technology news. The news files are updated by Newsbytes editors throughout the morning (11 am Eastern Time) and afternoon in batches until 6pm Eastern Standard Time." Here's the ACC story. ******* American Computer's Honkin' Alien-Origin Device ****American Computer's Honkin' Alien-Origin Device 12/18/97 CRANFORD, NEW JERSEY, U.S.A., 1997 DEC 18 (NB) -- By Craig Menefee, Newsbytes. Jack A. Shulman, head of American Computer Company, says he has prototyped a capacitance-based, transistor-like device called a transpacitor that puts today's transistors to shame. He claims the design is based on sketches purported to have been made in 1947 of salvaged pieces at the site of a UFO crash in Roswell, New Mexico. The claim has a lot of people scratching their heads. Shulman is the head of a small but respected computer engineering company. ACC has been around since the 1970s and this is not a marketing strategy the company has tried before. Shulman says he doesn't know the real story behind Roswell and its famous, rumored UFO crash. He doesn't even know if Roswell is where the original design came from. He just knows a physics professor friend helped him build the thing, it works, and it's one honkin' device. The man is serious. In a rather long chat with Newsbytes he talked a mile a minute but never came off like a nut with aluminum foil on his head to block transmissions from the aliens, or the CIA, or whoever. And he certainly speaks techno-geek like a native of the US defense industry. Still -- technology from a flying saucer? Shulman is quick to say he does not insist on an alien origin: "It might be stuff from German Nazi rocket scientists that the Department of Defense wanted to cover up, for all I know," he says. "But it is far outside anything they knew 50 years ago. We're groping for how it works even with today's understanding. Fifty years ago they probably thought it was just some strange kind of power supply." Shulman says he came by the notebook when a consultant acquaintance told him what it might be and he scoffed. The consultant, he says, has clients in high-tech corporations and US government agencies. Shulman won't name him nor his clients since discretion was, he says, a condition of getting the notebook. Anyway, he says, he doesn't want anyone tarred with the "UFO nut" brush, if that's how this comes out. Newsbytes notes there is much about this affair that Shulman is unwilling to name or to describe in detail. Confirmations outside his immediate circle are hard to come by. "I thought it was all a joke at first," Shulman told Newsbytes, "but the harder I looked, the weirder it got. Finally I got a friend of mine, a physics professor, to go over it with me, and we used scientific knowledge that wasn't even available 50 years ago to decipher what it might be. This experience has been very strange." Shulman says it took a half-dozen tries using "unusual materials" for the professor and him to create a device based on the drawing that worked. That's when the real surprises began. Shulman calls what he built a transpacitor, T-Cap, TCAP or Transcap. He says it does things that verge on breaking fundamental laws. They do not quite cross the line into impossibility under current science, or at least he thinks they don't. He's not quite sure. Phillip Conklin, an R&D (research and development) engineer at Shulman's firm, in a memo published at the firm's World Wide Web site, says the device uses an "isotropic crystalline substrate" capable of "bistable resonance and quantum storage." The memo continues: "The formal registration name filed with the Patent Office shall be 'The Transpacitor: A Quantum Memory Device.'" The memo adds: "On a different subject: the demo of the device to GE went quite well on Friday, basically: their jaws dropped and stayed dropped. They said they wanted to meet with you and legal next week to discuss the possibility of licensing." By Shulman's account, the transpacitor stores voltages with gradients too fine for his best test equipment to measure them. It transfers measurable charges too fast for a 10 picosecond timer to clock their passage. It generates no measurable heat when voltage is applied though electrons do move from point A to point B. But wait, there's more. It can be discharged and recharged with no losses you couldn't blame on the measuring process itself. It stores multiple voltage states that can be reliably measured, so coupling the devices into arrays like transistor logic gates could make the logic of current solid-state devices seem like ancient cave-wall writing. Is it a hoax? Maybe. Newsbytes has known a bored engineer or two who were more than capable of "inventing" such a device as a lark. They would not go public, however -- at least, not under their own company's established logo. Shulman insists this is not a perpetual motion or free energy device of the sort the US Patent Office refuses to consider. He also says he has been harassed by hate mail since he went public on the Web site December 7, an action he says he took to promote public discussion. He hopes someone can help him figure out just what it is he has built and how best to use it, he says. Toward this end, on Monday Shulman announced he is forming a Transpacitor Technologies Laboratory (TTL) and he wants qualified technology partners to help him develop the gadget. He will not accept offers of funding, at least not yet. Asked why, he answered: "People might think I'm just doing this for the money." He paused, then added: "Well, I am in it for the money, but I will not approach anyone for financial help until we understand this thing a lot better. It would hurt my credibility." Where will it all lead? He says he couldn't begin to guess, but later in the conversation he remarks: "For starters, try a poker-chip sized 100-GB hard drive with no moving parts and a tiny battery to sustain internal memory for, say, 10 years." He adds: "A T-Cap has a measurable drop-off rate of about 1 bit per hour, like a kind of seepage, if you don't steadily supply a tiny amount of current. But we're not sure if the loss results from some localized phenomenon having to do with its size, or if it will scale down when we miniaturize the thing. We just don't know yet. That's why we're establishing a research laboratory." Newsbytes notes any story involving UFOs brings out True Believers and Professional Skeptics in about equal numbers. Schulman says if he's anywhere on that spectrum it's with the skeptics, but seeing is believing. The guys from GE could tell you, he says, as could some other technical guys from Motorola who came calling. But he won't divulge their names. He says they would not appreciate being peppered with calls from the press. For those who would like to check out Shulman's claims, his Web site is located at http://www.american-computer.com . If you go, expect to see some typos and a lot of intentional vagueness. Shulman says he won't give anything much away until his patent applications are solidly in place. Reported by Newsbytes News Network: http://www.newsbytes.com . (19971217 /TRANSCAP/PHOTO) Copyright =A9Newsbytes News Network. All rightsreserved. For more Newsbytes see http://www.newsbytes.com. Home | Daily | Weekly | Publishers | Search
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 ICBMS Incident At Malmstrom AFB From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 05:18:41 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:40:36 -0500 Subject: ICBMS Incident At Malmstrom AFB This report in UFOINFO's news section was submitted by James J. Bjaloncik and published on December 10. URL: http://www.digiserve.com/ufoinfo/news/minuteman.html ******* MINUTEMAN ICBMS SHUT DOWN BY UFO UFO intrusions in and around military installations have been documented in many books and articles (i.e. "Above Top Secret" by Tim Good, "The UFO Cover-Up by Lawrence Fawcett and Barry Greenwood). The Loring (Maine) AFB incident in 1975 put eight other U.S. Air Force bases as far away as the states of Louisiana, Washington and North Dakota on alert. However, another intrusion that was touched on in both of the afore-mentioned books has only now been brought more into the open. The cable television program "Sightings" (Sci-Fi Channel) earlier this year aired the story of how two entire Minuteman ICBM launch-sites located near Malmstrom AFB (Montana) were completely shut-down by the presence of a nearby UFO. On March 16, 1967, deputy crew commander Robert Salas of missile site "November" received a phone call from a security guard at the site, indicating that he and several other guards had seen UFOs near the site. Five minutes later, Salas received a call from the same guard who stated that a red-glowing, saucer-shaped craft was hovering just outside the front gate of the complex. It was at this time that the missiles began to shut themselves down, going off "Alert" and putting themselves in a "No-Go" status. Twelve hours later, at missle launch site "Echo", located 20 miles away, launch commander Don Crawford suddenly found that his ICBMs were also shutting down. According to Crawford, there is NO command in the launch capsule (bunker) to be able to turn these systems off. He stated that there were no breakdowns in the systems, however, he also stated that, three weeks earlier, a security guard at this site had reported a UFO over the missle silos. According to Salas, approximately three hours after the missiles went down, the systems simply and suddenly CAME BACK ON LINE, with NO repair work being done. No broken cables or damaged hardware was found. Contractors for the Minuteman system (Boeing, Sylvania) were called in to investigate, but they were unable to determine what had happened. Recently, the USAF report on the incident has been declassified (one part on 4/27/95 and the second part on 7/27/95) and a copy was obtained by Salas and investigator James Klotz through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). The report, relative to the 341st Strategic Missle Wing, the 341st Combat Support Group, and the 15th Air Force, SAC, Malmstrom AFB, indicated that the Air Force was mystified by the incident. The possibility of an EMP (electro-magnetic pulse) was considered, but the capability of anyone to induce EMP into the shielded cable system of the Minuteman at that time did NOT exist (at least, not on this planet). The report claims that the security guards were questioned and that NO unusual activity or sightings were observed. The report also claims that "rumors of UFOs during the time of the Echo fault were disproved". Salas disputes this based on the calls he received. Another reason for the incident, that the shutdown was actually a training exercise to test the mettle of the launch crews, was ruled out by retired Lt. Col.Jerry Rowess, who was also involved with the sites. "You don't degrade your capability to fight a war for a war-game exercise," stated Rowess, who also indicated that the integrity of the security forces on duty would have to be "impeccable". Veteran UFO investigator Ray Fowler, a former Sylvania employee, said that Sylvania and Boeing representatives went to the two sites and attempted to simulate the shutdowns, but that they were never able to do so nor were they able to trace a reason for "No-Go" status. Fowler has also touched on this incident in his book "Casebook of a UFO Investigator" (Prentice-Hall, 1981). The "Sightings" program brought Salas and Crawford together for the first time. While they served in the same program at close-by sites, they had only heard of one another during their tours of duty and had never met. Both indicated that they would continue to investigate the shut-downs. Just recently, the Winter, 1997 issue of "UFO Universe" magazine (edited by Timothy Green Beckley) further expanded on the crisis. In it, Salas stated that he has also been in contact with many of the other Air Force personnel involved at launch-site "November" and that they all confirm his version of the events. Salas has continued to investigate the incident and is not happy with the Air Force's refusal to tell the truth. He indicates that the Air Force, in 1969, issued a letter that, based on the investigations by Project Blue Book and by the Condon Committee, no reported UFO incident had ever affected the national security of the United States. However, the "No-Go Crisis" occurred in 1967, and Salas believes that the Air Force "blatantly misrepresented the facts". He also has correspondence from SAC Headquarters stating that the incident "was of very grave concern to this headquarters". The article also carries a map showing the placement of the various launch sites at the time. Report submitted by James J. Bjaloncik =BF=BFjjbjal@gwis.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Re: A Link Between The Earth And Stars From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 05:31:46 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:43:25 -0500 Subject: Re: A Link Between The Earth And Stars Found at the site of The Nando Times. URL: http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/health/121897/health16_29534_noframes. html ******* A link between the Earth and stars Copyright =A91997 Nando.net Copyright =A91997 Reuters LONDON (December 18, 1997 11:12 a.m. EST http://www.nando.net) - The Earth's destiny really is written in the stars, according to new research released Wednesday, but that doesn't mean scientists have now given their backing to astrology. Scientists have discovered the earth's orbit can be influenced by the way geophysical processes deep within its crust interact with the solar system's movement. Features of the Earth's orbit, such as the rotation of the poles and changes in the tilt of its axis, may be influenced by factors such as the way the crust is affected by the melting of continental ice sheets. At the same time, changes in the Earth's orbit affect the amount of sun that falls on the Earth, according to Alessandro Forte of the Institut de Physique du Globe in Paris and Jerry Mitrovica of Canada's University of Toronto. Geophysical processes can alter the earth's orbit and this, in turn, can affect the long-term climate, the researchers wrote in the scientific journal Nature. Their investigations suggested the Earth had, at some period in the last 20 million years, passed through the gravitational influence of the planets Jupiter and Saturn and this influenced the way the earth's tilt changed during that time. The scientists' work will allow them to look at what the Earth's climate was like and how it might turn out. Copyright =A91997 Nando.net
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:38:49 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:03:05 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:17:26 -0600 (CST) >From: "George Fergus" <fergus@mail.ccrl.mot.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >> And when are the negativists in this thread going to rise above >> the usual level of Internet twaddle for a change and come up >> with some proof that this book was a hoax? Not to be too negative, but it would seem that Corso's allegations would be better served by documentation, rather than word games. He has made claims that thus far have no supporting evidence. From the interviews that I've been made aware of, it is apparent that Corso believes what is claimed in his book, but we must in turn decide if his beliefs have any basis in our reality. >Since Corso claims that nothing was ever written down, there is >no way to disprove anything that he says. He does not remember >the names of any of the people or the projects at the various >companies to whom he claims to have given UFO artifacts, so none >of those companies' records can be checked to verify that those >people or projects were there at the time. He does not provide >any insider information on any of these projects, but only what >one would find in any good encyclopedia. >Mistakes in dates and names can be attributed simply to errors >by Birnes attempting to fill in the gaps in the info he got from >Corso. >I don't see any way to either prove or disprove Corso. Do you? Perhaps a look at the notes that Corso gave to Birnes would help in determining who claims what. Jesse Marcel Jr. says that the description of his father's involvement in an earlier crash is simply nonsense. While one might claim that his young son might not be aware of his father's early involvement in such an incident, Marcel Sr.'s later actions just don't seem to fit the description given. Since Corso was never in Roswell around the time of the (alleged) crash, I would have to assume that this information was inserted by Birnes. But who knows, without a look at the notes given to Birnes. IMHO, I believe that Corso holds the key to either proving or disproving his claims, and it's up to him to come forward with additional information.ufologists then have a responsibility to investigate claims that are made, but only until they are convinced that they are either valid or bogus. I have heard that Corso has much more information that he feels would be of interest, but it's not clear that any of it will be published. Unfortunately, I've not heard that it will help to validate his earlier claims. Perhaps more will become known if he is able to speak at Symposiums and Conferences, but that in turn may depend on the legal agreement that he has with Birnes and his publisher. In the meantime, the factual errors in "The Day After Roswell" will only serve to isolate him from both researchers and skeptics. Steve Kaeser
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Re: UFO junk collector From: James Oberg <JamesOberg@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 07:17:28 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:43:15 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO junk collector >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net >Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:28:14 PST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: UFO junk collector >Chapter Six, on "The Sirius Mystery," is a word-for-word reprint >of an article Oberg wrote in the November 1978 issue of Fate. >The unsuspecting reader is nowhere informed that Robert Temple, >who proposed the hypothesis Oberg is criticizing, published a >detailed refutation which cast serious doubt on several of >Oberg's key arguments ("In Defense of the Sirius Mystery," >October 1980 Fate). As anyone who compares the chapter with the article can determine, this statement is inaccurate. The chapter is entirely re-written to account for Temple's responses and reply to them point by point, an action which Clark explicitly and falsely states that I never do. But I did. Anyone with the most modest capabilities in research can verify this. Why Clark should feel compelled fifteen years later to repeat his insulting falsehood is a question beyond my competence -- or interest -- to confront. Perhaps it's related to his silly assertion made elsewhere that I compare UFO believers to crypto-nazis, something else he made up. My writings stand on their own as a useful contribution to the understanding of the UFO phenomenon.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:47:04 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:47:13 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] >Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:02:55 PST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Dennis, >I was just as puzzled as you by Bob's comments. >If authors were routinely being screwed out of their >advances, there would be a national outcry, and >probably even people who've never written books >would hear about it in media coverage. >I have written and published 11 books. In each >case I received the advance specified in the contract, >and in some cases I got further royalty money beyond >the advance. >Like you, I can only wonder if Bob's friends have ever >heard of lawyers. >Jerry Clark Obviously experiences vary. I've written sixteen books to date (9 still in print) and just finished three for next year. Recently heard excuses from publishers for why money, or specified amount, has not been received include: "Our computer hard drive crashed and we lost your mailing address." "Business has been tight and we had to lower our wholesale prices, so that's why we lowered your royalties by one percent." " We sent you the money. You mean you DIDN'T get it???" And many more. I have three books in print which are best sellers in their field in Germany, but because of a legal dispute between the English and German publishers, I have not seen a penny in royalties. This one is working its way slowly through the German courts, so I may see something some day. Yes, Jerry, my friends and I know about lawyers. There are two problems with that approach. First, lawyers won't take on publishers on a contingency basis, so you have to pay the lawyer up front. In most cases, legal fees would exceed the amount of money in dispute, so what's the point? Secondly, publishers do "black list" authors seen as being "troublesome". I'd rather lose out now and then and keep writing books. This is not to say that all publishers are like this. I have worked with several different ones, and have found one that is scrupulously honest. I'll do anything they ask as a result. Contracts from the others aren't worth the paper they are printed on. I enjoy writing, and I think I'm pretty good at it, so I will keep it up knowing full well that I will not always see the promised money. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:16:29 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:24:30 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:17:26 -0600 (CST) >From: "George Fergus" <fergus@mail.ccrl.mot.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 07:14:07 +0100 (MET) >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso <snippy> >> And when are the negativists in this thread going to rise above >> the usual level of Internet twaddle for a change and come up >> with some proof that this book was a hoax? >Since Corso claims that nothing was ever written down, there is >no way to disprove anything that he says. He does not remember >the names of any of the people or the projects at the various >companies to whom he claims to have given UFO artifacts, so none >of those companies' records can be checked to verify that those >people or projects were there at the time. He does not provide >any insider information on any of these projects, but only what >one would find in any good encyclopedia. >Mistakes in dates and names can be attributed simply to errors >by Birnes attempting to fill in the gaps in the info he got from >Corso. >I don't see any way to either prove or disprove Corso. Do you? George, At least you sound objective, unlike some other people I'm aware of. I think the UFO community should keep telling Corso's tale and bring him out into the spotlights. If he sounded a liar, most of the UFO community would have lost interest by now, just like it lost interest in other hoaxers. But anyone who he listened to him knows that he doesn't sound like a liar. If he is telling the truth perhaps other people will come forward and confirm his story or parts of it. To a certain extent that has already happened. A week or so ago someone posted a story about an alleged extraterrestrial project at Monsanto, one of the companies in Corso's book. If I remember correctly the post was from Kenny Young of TASK. Also, the ACC folks are verifying Corso's story. In one of his appearances on Sightings Jack Shulman told that he has found where the intact UFO had been after it landed near Corona. It was moved from one place to another and eventually ended up in New Jersey, while parts of it were transferred to the Pentagon where Corso worked in the sixties (Shulman's story). As long as Corso's story is spread and ACC keeps going, expect more revelations to come. The suggestion from some people on this list that Corso should be prohibited from speaking at conferences and that the ACC thing should stop too, for God's sake, is to me preposterous. As far as I can see, Pitbull Jack has more brains, balls and bucks than every next 100 ufologists and is 1,000 times more effective. It's irony that a formerly disinterested party now seems to be unraveling the cover up that the UFO community has been staring at for 50 years. (At least part of it, duhh!) To some armchair ufologists who haven't mastered the telephone yet this is of course sour grapes. Keep going, Jack! __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs From: "Serge Salvaille" <sergesa@connectmmic.net> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:22:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:03:26 -0500 Subject: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:22:14 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:46:45 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs <snip> >Sorry Bob, it's a lot more complex than that! In order for the >aliens to do it, "just as the Catholic priests" first they'd have >to kill most of us off with infectious diseases that our immune >systems are unprepared for, then they'd have to burn all our >books and any records of our civilization, then they could rob >us, rape us, enslave us and kill us! >But that's only if they want to do it the 'old fashioned way!' <G> John, There are much better ways to achieve this John, the new fashioned way: cut off jobs, lower education, demote schools, ignore poverty, have people watch TV or get on the Internet where more people with lesser and lesser education can communicate and in a common cognitive dissonnance forget about the hobos spilling their gutts in the gutter, forget about no jobs and no future and get the impression that they are on top of the world. And then BAM, anything will go: the only hope will come from outside, as there will be none from inside. Sounds familiar ? Serge Salvaille
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: TotlResrch <TotlResrch@aol.com> [Kal Korff] Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:38:26 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:59:58 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso In a recent posting, Bob Shell wrote: >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:45:48 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso <snip> >Even if the [book] contract specifies $ XXXX for the advance, there >always seems to be a bunch of fine print at the end of the >contract allowing all sorts of things to be deducted from the >advance. Well, maybe there's "fine print" in some author's contracts, but certainly not mine. Indeed, all clauses appear in twelve point print, and I was even free to add some of my own terms and conditions, which I appreciated. Indeed, as the author of two, widely-critically acclaimed books myself, I have always been paid by my publisher (Prometheus) within the parameters of my contract, and now that my Roswell book is heading towards a THIRD printing, I look forward to their next royalty check. I intend to use ALL of these moneys (and have been using them) towards my efforts to pry more UFO documents from the government that are still being withheld from the American public. I have already received nearly 300 pages from various agencies and I will be publishing these early next year, and announcing them in a nationwide radio address on January 16, 1998. More details to follow soon. In other words, unlike SOME UFO authors, who sock away the profits to line their pockets, I am plowing it back into UFO research. The scenario Bob Shell outlines of being ripped-off by publishers, etc., is one that I cannot relate to personally...maybe some authors have gotten burned by their publishers, but I would like to believe (since I have numerous contacts in the publishing industry and have the luxury of picking and choosing my publishers, which is very rare) and I KNOW that most of the (certainly mainstream) publishing industry simply does not work this way. Perhaps Shell has had no luck...just like those who have been trying to get some straight and truthful answers from Ray ScamTilli and his promoters regarding the alien fraudtopsy case. :-) Respectfully yours, Kal Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Crop Circle Connector #53 From: Mark Fussell <mjfussell@marque.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:25:25 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:12:30 -0500 Subject: Crop Circle Connector #53 Hi WHAT`S NEW on the Crop Circle Connector at:- http://alpha.mic.dundee.ac.uk/ft/crop_circles/anasazi/whatsnew.html Updated Thursday 18th December 1997 (Members 2280) The Crop Circle Connector as many of you know was established in June 1995. We have come a long way since then, and are very grateful for the support we have received in that time. Many thanks go out to all of you who very kindly donated money towards our scanner appeal. It has made life so much easier for us, to scan images as they come into the Crop Circle Connector. As the new year approaches, there will be two more Mailing Lists, to finish the year. In January 1998 we are asking all of our Mailing List members to resubscribe again, uunder the conditions stated on the web page below http://www.marque.demon.co.uk/connector/ml.html The reasons being, that we hope to open a mirror site in America, to make it easier for our North American readers. We will be arranging a monthly competition, which will provide prizes, such as Crop Circle books, Videos, Photographs, etc etc. We would like too take this oppportunity in wishing all of our members a Merry Christmas, and succesful New Year. ******************************************** BACK TO BASICS Internal Geometry of Crop Circles By Bert Janssen Two major articles one in Dutch with the translated English Version Bert has been a Dutch Crop Circle researcher for some years, and has noticed the containing geometry within the patterns, which form the fundamental basis for the designs. In this particular article he discusses and shows us the fascinating correlation between the formations and points out the construction of certain shapes from the 1997 season, and the internal mechanics of their form. *********************************************** DELUXE, GLOSSY 1998 CROP CIRCLE CALENDAR *****BUY NOW BEFORE THE CHRISTMAS RUSH***** EMAIL TO RESERVE YOUR CALENDAR NOW A Stunning 12x16 inches calendar incorporating photographs of the 1997 formations in four different languages for that International appeal! If you would like to receive your 1998 Crop Circle Calendar before Christmas, please make sure your order and money are received no later than 6th December 1997 for USA orders and 13th December for European orders. email for details:- calendar@marque.demon.co.uk ***************************************** The November/December 1997 Crop Circle Connector Competition Prize Draw Please do not forget to send your answer to Steve Alexander and read the instructions on how to enter the Competition. The Prize draw has been delay until the 31st December as many people have not follow the instructions on the competiton page on how to enter. Your chance to win a delux 1998 Crop Circle Calendar, plus a set of 30 colour photographs of the best Crop formations from 1994, 1995, 1996, and 1997. A set of 10 postcards and a copy of the Music CD "Signs of Life" (Music inspired by the Crop Circles). All photographs & images on the CD by Steve Alexander. 2nd prize one free calendar. To enter go to:- http://alpha.mic.dundee.ac.uk/ft/crop_circles/anasazi/nov97.html ***************************************** Attention all Croppies Down Under!! This is a request to all our Australian subscribers. We are searching for anyone who can supply us with informatiion on any Crop Circle events in Australia. At this present time, we are without any reports of the phenomenon in this country, and would like to recieve any news clippings, photographs, or eye witness accounts of crop circles around the mainland. The Crop Circle Connector feels that it too quiet in Australia, so please can you help us? ****************************************** Sussex Formations 1997 A selection of updated formations from Sussex incorporating locations such as: Offham, West Sussex Edburton, West Sussex Cissbury Ring, West Sussex Hemel Hemptead. Angmering, West Sussex Storrington, West Sussex New Haven, East Sussex Southease, East Sussex New photographs and additional reports See Crop Circles 1997 ***************************************** Austrian Crop Circles Never seen before exclusive photographs of the 1997 Crop Circles in Austria. Fascinating accounts of historical crop circle events also, indicating that Austria has its fair share of the phenomenon. **************************************** The Crop Circle Enigma Facts, Analysis, Hypotheses Dr Eltjo H. Haselhoff A major new book arriving in March 1998, which thhe Crop Circle Connector will be promoting, and will be available with personal signature from the Author. *************************************** SC Magazine, December Issue 71 OUT NOW!! See Magazines link *************************************** Amasing Discovery by Mark Reynolds Barry Reynolds (Sussex Team) son Mark, made an amasing discovery, using Polydron pieces He created the Koch Snowflake, and found 3 fold geometry within it. See the photographs of the model in 3D. ************************************** Update on the CCCS (Centre for Crop Circle Studies) on their local, and International contacts, and the latest issue of the Circular magazine. ************************************* Complete listing for the Sussex research monthly meetings, incorporating dates ************************************ The listing for the CCCS London Winter lectures, with dates, and location. ********************************** All the best Stuart & Mark *******************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:26:17 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:15:02 -0500 Subject: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:14:11 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:22:14 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >>Sorry Bob, it's a lot more complex than that! In order for the >>aliens to do it, "just as the Catholic priests" first they'd have >>to kill most of us off with infectious diseases that our immune >>systems are unprepared for, then they'd have to burn all our >>books and any records of our civilization, then they could rob >>us, rape us, enslave us and kill us! >>But that's only if they want to do it the 'old fashioned way!' <G> >>John Velez >No argument, John!! I just left out the other stuff in case little >kids were reading <G>!!!! >Maybe converting us is EXACTLY what is going on. They just do it >differently???? >Bob Hey Bob, Yeah, it is very different. One major difference is, they didn't land on the Whitehouse lawn as everyone expected. Why do you think you're hearing about this from a nobody like me. They are introducing themselves to the people (directly) one at a time. Not to say they haven't contacted our leaders. (If Bubba and Hillary haven't been 'tagged' yet I'd consider the aliens remiss in their duties.) But they -have gone- directly to the people. And, unlike the Catholic Priests, about all they've done so far is shove things in our noses and keesters and scare the living daylights out of a few citizens. Although I'm not too choked up about that either, it beats the hell out of genocide and the death of our entire culture I'd say. <G> BTW, kids who are not educated about predators are easy prey! John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Re: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:49:31 PST Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:19:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to > Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:47:04 -0500 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] > >Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:02:55 PST > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >Dennis, > >I was just as puzzled as you by Bob's comments. > >If authors were routinely being screwed out of their > >advances, there would be a national outcry, and > >probably even people who've never written books > >would hear about it in media coverage. > >I have written and published 11 books. In each > >case I received the advance specified in the contract, > >and in some cases I got further royalty money beyond > >the advance. > >Like you, I can only wonder if Bob's friends have ever > >heard of lawyers. > >Jerry Clark > Obviously experiences vary. > I've written sixteen books to date (9 still in print) and just > finished three for next year. > Recently heard excuses from publishers for why money, or > specified amount, has not been received include: > "Our computer hard drive crashed and we lost your mailing > address." > "Business has been tight and we had to lower our wholesale > prices, so that's why we lowered your royalties by one > percent." > " We sent you the money. You mean you DIDN'T get it???" > And many more. I have three books in print which are best > sellers in their field in Germany, but because of a legal > dispute between the English and German publishers, I have > not seen a penny in royalties. This one is working its > way slowly through the German courts, so I may see something > some day. > Yes, Jerry, my friends and I know about lawyers. There are > two problems with that approach. First, lawyers won't take on > publishers on a contingency basis, so you have to pay the lawyer > up front. In most cases, legal fees would exceed the amount > of money in dispute, so what's the point? Secondly, publishers > do "black list" authors seen as being "troublesome". > I'd rather lose out now and then and keep writing books. > This is not to say that all publishers are like this. I have > worked with several different ones, and have found one that is > scrupulously honest. I'll do anything they ask as a result. > Contracts from the others aren't worth the paper they are > printed on. > I enjoy writing, and I think I'm pretty good at it, so I will > keep it up knowing full well that I will not always see the > promised money. > Bob Bob, Thanks for the clarification. It makes me feel a little better; I didn't want to leave the impression, in my own note, that all publishers are to be trusted. There are indeed plenty of horror stories out there. So far, anyway, I've been fortunate. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Re: UFO junk collector From: Jean van Gemert <jeanvg@dds.nl> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:56:18 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:22:17 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO junk collector >From: James Oberg <JamesOberg@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 07:17:28 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO junk collector >-- or interest -- to confront. Perhaps it's related to his silly >assertion made elsewhere that I compare UFO believers to >crypto-nazis, something else he made up. Now now, James. Do you want me to pull some of your insulting posts from Usenet? I'm not sure if you've ever said that UFO believers are akin to "crypto-nazis," but you've sure said a bunch of *other* denigrating stuff. >My writings stand on their own as a useful contribution to the >understanding of the UFO phenomenon. Well, guess that all depends on how you define "useful". :) __________________________________________________________________________ Science, Logic, and the UFO Debate: http://www.primenet.com/~bdzeiler/index.html -----------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Re: UFO junk collector From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:23:52 PST Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:28:08 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO junk collector > From: James Oberg <JamesOberg@aol.com> > Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 07:17:28 EST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO junk collector > >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net > >Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:28:14 PST > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: UFO junk collector > >Chapter Six, on "The Sirius Mystery," is a word-for-word reprint > >of an article Oberg wrote in the November 1978 issue of Fate. > >The unsuspecting reader is nowhere informed that Robert Temple, > >who proposed the hypothesis Oberg is criticizing, published a > >detailed refutation which cast serious doubt on several of > >Oberg's key arguments ("In Defense of the Sirius Mystery," > >October 1980 Fate). > As anyone who compares the chapter with the article can > determine, this statement is inaccurate. The chapter is entirely > re-written to account for Temple's responses and reply to them > point by point, an action which Clark explicitly and falsely > states that I never do. But I did. > Anyone with the most modest capabilities in research can verify > this. Why Clark should feel compelled fifteen years later to > repeat his insulting falsehood is a question beyond my competence > -- or interest -- to confront. Perhaps it's related to his silly > assertion made elsewhere that I compare UFO believers to > crypto-nazis, something else he made up. > My writings stand on their own as a useful contribution to the > understanding of the UFO phenomenon. Jim, I confess that long ago I misplaced my copy of your book. If you would be so kind as to send me a photocopy of the chapter in question and document your assertion that you responded to Temple, I will apologize to you on this list. It seems odd to me, I confess, that it's taken you more than 15 years to register a protest. But if I have misrepresented what you did, I will set the record straight. My address is 612 North Oscar Avenue, Canby, Minnesota 56220. Perhaps then you could apologize to the UFO community for, on one level, claiming (to ufologists) to be a sympathetic skeptic favoring serious investigation while, on another, writing NASA (on June 30, 1977) -- when it was giving consideration to a serious investigation -- about the "UFOniks" and "UFO nuts" who "for fun and profit have been slandering our space program and lying through their teeth.... All of the UFO business you have to do is an essential waste of time. So if I can in any way make things easier or faster, since I know many of the UFO freaks and their weaknesses and biases, please don't hesitate to give me an unofficial call." (Are you familiar, Jim, with a concept called "hypocrisy"?) Since we're on the subject, maybe you could identify by name those "UFOniks" and "UFO nuts" who "for fun and profit have been ... lying through their teeth." As for your linkage of UFO beliefs and holders of same to fascism, see the fourth paragraph of my review. I recall an earlier private exchange on this very matter, when you labored mightily to make your silly words not say what they said. If I were you, I'd simply retract them. All of us, especially those of us who've written a whole lot over the years, have said something dopey at one time or another. Some of us have been willing to own up to that. (I once wrote a book that is as awful in its way as yours is in its.) On the other hand, if you don't want to cut your losses, that is, of course, your choice. If that is your choice, expect that you will continue to be criticized on this matter. I can think of many adjectives to characterize your writings on UFOs. "Useful," I'm afraid, is not one of them. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Re: 'Murderous Meteors' From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:49:19 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:44:58 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Murderous Meteors' > Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:56:25 +0000 > From: Bryan Butcher <being@concentric.net> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'Murderous Meteors' > Ed... > 100,000 newsclips is a tremendous resource! Can you sort these > clippings and do a detailed analysis of fireball sighting trends > over the past, say, 50 years? I am in the process of building a central database on the known newsclips but it is strictly bibliographical in nature and in essence will only point a researcher to the prime source of the news story. > Is there a place the public can access these newsclippings? There is not one place yet. But there are public places where one can get a taste of what has been microfilmed. The Leon Davidson Collection is available at Columbia University, 5 microfilm reels. The NICAP Newsclipping Collection is available at the Library of Congress, 4 microfilm reels. The Air Force 1952 Newsclipping collection, 32 microfilm reels, may also be available at the LOC, not sure. The bulk of the collected newsclips have come from private sources and researchers that have subscribed individually to newsclipping services over the years and have researched various newspaper depositories and Universities through out the world. Recently Jan Aldrich on a research project, Project-1947, was able to find somewhere between 10,000 to 20,000 clips alone that for the most part simply covered a couple of months in 1947. I have databased the Canadian clips from the above 1947 material, 1169 clips. 12 related to the subject of Fireballs, Meteors, UFOs, or about 1%. I have also databased the entire MUFON Journal and assorted publications. 91 articles there related to the subject of Fireballs, Meteors, UFOs, or again about 1% of the total articles of 9133. That does not include the 328 articles under Observational Astronomy. The MUFON Index is available through MUFON, FUFOR and/or Arcturus Books. I have also indexed the entire run of FLYING SAUCER REVIEW available through FUFOR and Arcturus Books, but when I did that I did not assign a subject category to each article. Consequently, I don't have figures for Fireballs, Meteors, UFOs related articles in FSR, but I suspect the percentages will run the same, about one percent of the total stories/articles. > Any increase in meteorite, and more importantly, bolide sightings > could interest a great many people in many fields...for you to > say it shouldn't interest UFO researchers is a bit harsh...yes? It was harsh. A reaction of mine to the tabloid mentality expressed in the original posted article. If you are interested in serious research related to bolide sightings check with the American Meteor Society internet site for appropriate links. Also check with the largest library near you (may have to go to the National archives and/or Library of Congress) and look up the publication "Notice To Mariners" which is/was compiled by the Navy Hydrographic Office. They maintained records of bolides and fireballs and published sighting reports. It is a great resource for possible UFO sightings prior to WWII. Also look for books and articles written by H.H. Ninninger (sp?), past curator of the American Meteor Museum whose holdings are now at the British Museum and at Arizona State U. > > The likelyhood is that meteor showers last entire nights and > > cover at least hundreds if not thousands of square miles of > > Earth. The Captain's testimony supports that. The meteors he saw > > were in the distance. That would indicate that they were probably > > hundreds of miles away and not over the village where the house > > caught fire. There is nothing in the news article that indicates > > the "meteor shower" was localized over one village and one > > village alone. > Good point...and probably quite valid and true. And as a professed amateur astronomer you should have also been aware that this incident occured at the tail end of the annual Geminid shower which lasted from Dec. 7 to 15 with the peak on the 13-14. Geminid meteors are famous for their brightness and whiteness. They usually peak out at 50-100 an hour and you can see them from all over the Earth. One doesn't have to go to a village in South America to observe the Geminids. > <big snip of further data and requests for data verification> [BIG SNIP OF SPECULATION AND TABLOID NAUSEA] > Ed...what research can you provide that scientifically proves > IFOs to be hyped sensationalism designed to exploit the gullible > public? Reference the original article. That is what my post applied to. Don't make more of it than it was intended to address. There is no evidence that points to a meteorite as the cause of this fire. The article itself states that. PERIOD! > The Bogota incident is not exclusive...it merely took > the lives of four young humans to gain some attention. No, it took the speculative comment of a Fire Chief who couldn't come up with any real evidence of what caused the fire in the first place and that speculation has now been promoted and amplified to even suggest "murderous meteors". That is what gave the article attention, not that four children died in a fire. I think Ed Wood would have been very proud to run with this story. (GRIN) > If you were the children's parents, would you want a real answer > as to why they died the way they did? I would want real answers, not tabloid journalism using the death of my children to promote the frenzy among gullibles. > Perhaps they were playing > with matches? Perhaps some fireman wanted to get in on the South > American UFO Enigma and hype the story for money... yeah... > right... after he carried a little bundle of charred remains from > a shanty shack. It's hard for me to accept this is the > case...but perhaps I'm just too gullible. I would want a real answer, based on facts not speculation. But then again, ufology as practiced today is for the most part sensationalistic and speculative. As a point, that is all you have offered in your criticism. Not one yota of evidence to suggest that this article was justified, or that the review given by the poster was justified in its tabloid treatment of an unfortunate incident. Ed Stewart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart egs@netcom.com | So Man, who here seems principal alone, There is Something | Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) | 'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. --------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:07:45 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 19:37:00 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:16:29 +0100 (MET) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:17:26 -0600 (CST) >>From: "George Fergus" <fergus@mail.ccrl.mot.com> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso I really wasn't going to respond to this, but. . . . well, anyway >>> And when are the negativists in this thread going to rise above >>> the usual level of Internet twaddle for a change and come up >>> with some proof that this book was a hoax? >>Since Corso claims that nothing was ever written down, there is >>no way to disprove anything that he says. He does not remember >>the names of any of the people or the projects at the various >>companies to whom he claims to have given UFO artifacts, so none >>of those companies' records can be checked to verify that those >>people or projects were there at the time. He does not provide >>any insider information on any of these projects, but only what >>one would find in any good encyclopedia. >>Mistakes in dates and names can be attributed simply to errors >>by Birnes attempting to fill in the gaps in the info he got from >>Corso. >>I don't see any way to either prove or disprove Corso. Do you? >George, >At least you sound objective, unlike some other people I'm aware >of. I think the UFO community should keep telling Corso's tale >and bring him out into the spotlights. If he sounded a liar, most >of the UFO community would have lost interest by now, just like >it lost interest in other hoaxers. But anyone who he listened to >him knows that he doesn't sound like a liar. Bring him "out into the spotlights"? He has appeared at book signings, taken part in several radio programs to answer questions, met with a number of Ufologists (most of them believers), and this doesn't include the appearances and coverage that his co-author has taken part in. There has been no shortage of opportunities from Corso to provide details that could help to verify his version of history. The problem is that his answers never go beyond the "facts" that are outlined in the book. He has been unable to provide any further documentation or information that could help researchers in checking into his allegations. Of course he doesn't sound like a liar, as it appears that he truly believes that what he is claiming is the truth. The problem is that there is no way to verify whether he is one of the most important people in our history or simply delusional. >If he is telling the truth perhaps other people will come forward >and confirm his story or parts of it. To a certain extent that >has already happened. A week or so ago someone posted a story >about an alleged extraterrestrial project at Monsanto, one of the >companies in Corso's book. If I remember correctly the post was >from Kenny Young of TASK. If others would come forward, that would help. Of course, we always hope for something more solid than annecdotal claims. >Also, the ACC folks are verifying Corso's story. In one of his >appearances on Sightings Jack Shulman told that he has found >where the intact UFO had been after it landed near Corona. It was >moved from one place to another and eventually ended up in New >Jersey, while parts of it were transferred to the Pentagon where >Corso worked in the sixties (Shulman's story). The only link between Corso and the ACC story is the claim that ET technology has been recovered and has since become a part of our own technological development. Shulman at ACC goes to great pains to keep his claims seperate from Corso's, indicating that he had never heard of Corso or read his book prior to the ACC web statement. Corso, meanwhile, has not indicated any involvement in the seeding of "transistor" technology at Bell Labs. So, I'm at a loss as to why you would believe that one would lend credence to the other. Both stand, or fall, on their own merits. >As long as Corso's story is spread and ACC keeps going, expect >more revelations to come. The suggestion from some people on this >list that Corso should be prohibited from speaking at conferences >and that the ACC thing should stop too, for God's sake, is to me >preposterous. As far as I can see, Pitbull Jack has more brains, >balls and bucks than every next 100 ufologists and is 1,000 times >more effective. It's irony that a formerly disinterested party >now seems to be unraveling the cover up that the UFO community >has been staring at for 50 years. (At least part of it, duhh!) To >some armchair ufologists who haven't mastered the telephone yet >this is of course sour grapes. >Keep going, Jack! If you've followed the ACC story from the beginning, you see that Shulman has had an ax to grind since the death of a friend many years earlier, and that would seem to make him an "interested" party in this matter. But I would agree that a prohibition would be counter-productive, and Corso should be invited to come out and answer as many quesitons about his claims as possible. That same goes for Jack Shulman of ACC. Of course, their involvement in a Symposium or Conference may reflect on its credibility. On the other hand, the primary goal of every event that I've been to has been attendance. If a program isn't interesting, the people won't come, and the event won't be held again next year. I'm curious as to how much of Corso's claims you've checked into? Some other lists have carried threads that show quite a few "mistakes" in his book, which don't help its credibility. If he had prepared himself this poorly before he testified before Congress regrding Korean POWs, he would have been screened out by the staff and would have never reached the Floor. The alien technology/transistor story is certainly not new, but it has become the subject of discussion by ACC on the basis of a "notebook" that no one has been shown. Several researchers I know have been very interested in ACCs claims, since they tend to support theories they had developed on their own. However, most of them have moved on to other research, since ACC isn't coming forward to show the evidence to support its claims. I'm not sure the genre is any better of as a result of these "revelations". However, that's a judgement call we all have to make on our own.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Don Ledger <dledger@istar.ca> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:22:38 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:05:14 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:47:04 -0500 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > I've written sixteen books to date (9 still in print) and just > finished three for next year. > Recently heard excuses from publishers for why money, or > specified amount, has not been received include: > "Our computer hard drive crashed and we lost your mailing > address." > "Business has been tight and we had to lower our wholesale > prices, so that's why we lowered your royalties by one > percent." > " We sent you the money. You mean you DIDN'T get it???" > And many more. I have three books in print which are best > sellers in their field in Germany, but because of a legal > dispute between the English and German publishers, I have > not seen a penny in royalties. This one is working its > way slowly through the German courts, so I may see something > some day. > Yes, Jerry, my friends and I know about lawyers. There are > two problems with that approach. First, lawyers won't take on > publishers on a contingency basis, so you have to pay the lawyer > up front. In most cases, legal fees would exceed the amount > of money in dispute, so what's the point? Secondly, publishers > do "black list" authors seen as being "troublesome". > I'd rather lose out now and then and keep writing books. > This is not to say that all publishers are like this. I have > worked with several different ones, and have found one that is > scrupulously honest. I'll do anything they ask as a result. > Contracts from the others aren't worth the paper they are > printed on. > I enjoy writing, and I think I'm pretty good at it, so I will > keep it up knowing full well that I will not always see the > promised money. > Bob Bob if you have publishers who are screwing you then you should pass them on as a warning to the rest of us. They won't last long in the business, once they become known. You don't have to put them on the list but could issue them privately to those that are interested, such as myself...and I'm sure many others. Don Ledger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 19 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:57:43 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 19:39:24 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:38:49 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:17:26 -0600 (CST) >>From: "George Fergus" <fergus@mail.ccrl.mot.com> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >I have heard that Corso has much more information that he feels >would be of interest, but it's not clear that any of it will be >published. Unfortunately, I've not heard that it will help to >validate his earlier claims. Perhaps more will become known if >he is able to speak at Symposiums and Conferences, but that in >turn may depend on the legal agreement that he has with Birnes >and his publisher. In the meantime, the factual errors in "The >Day After Roswell" will only serve to isolate him from both >researchers and skeptics. Steven and list, All so called errors in Corso's book must be attributed to Birnes and not to Corso, as Corso and Birnes themselves have stated and as I predicted around July when this issue came up here first. I didn't have to ask either of them as it was obvious from the beginning. All this nonsense about Corso's so called errors is entirely irrelevant and the product of minds that make a mountain out of every molehill while so far ACC as well as Kenny Young have come with corroberative information. I will make two new predictions here: 1. More evidence that corroberates Corso's and ACC's claims will surface 2. Amateur Ufologists will accuse more people to be part of a giant conspiracy to sell Corso's book and to help ACC with their commercial ploy. If Ed Wang, FUFOR and the US Air Force are already improving ACC's Christmas sales and bottom line by revealing that the meeting at Princeton took place where the USAF acknowledged the alien origin of transistor technology, then next in line will be the CIA, the NSA and Clinton's new dog. Mark my words and archive them. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 20 Skywatch: Filer's Files #50 From: "Skywatch International" <SKYWATCH> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:37:12 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 00:21:35 -0500 Subject: Skywatch: Filer's Files #50 Filer's Files #50 MUFON Skywatch Investigations From George A. Filer: MUFON Eastern Director, Dec. 18 Majorstar@aol.com (609) 654-0020 Meteor showers cause a sudden drop in UFO reports. Apparently, UFO crews feel shopping for the holidays is safer than dodging meteors. Happy Holidays everyone. NEW HAMPSHIRE: MUFON investigator and Board member Carolyn S. McNellis reports: On December 2, at 4:32 p.m. Eastern time, I spotted a fireball approximately half the size of a ping pong ball at arm's length with a two inch tail. While driving south on RT 12-A at the intersection of Hwy 89 at W. Lebanon, NH, (the road parallels the Connecticut River, NH's border with VT), I saw the object in the southwest sky. I concluded that, because the sun was just going down, the object was picking up the golden orange of the setting sun. That evening I questioned a local astronomer-friend who said he had not heard of a meteor at that time, but December was supposed to be full of meteor showers. I witnessed Hale-Bopp in early spring and this was MUCH MUCH larger . If this was 1/2 the size of a ping pong ball, Hale Bopp was the size of the head of a pin, and needed binoculars to really be seen clearly. I watched this fireball until the road took me into the woods. Seven minutes later, when I emerged from the woods, it was not to be seen. It was an awe inspiring sight, but one that made me hope it was headed elsewhere in space -- gloom and doom warnings of what will happen "if" have certainly made an impression on me! GEORGIA: John Thompson, MUFON Georgia State Director reports, I just got off the phone with a man who says that he saw a triangle-shaped UFO. The sighting took place at 8:40 PM on December 5th, on Highway. 100, two miles north of Franklin. The witness observed a formation of 5 white to amber color large lights. A structured object would have made a triangle about 50 feet in size. "The UFO flew to the southeast at 2000 feet altitude or lower." He observed it for nearly 20 seconds before losing sight of the UFO behind some pines. He said, the UFO flew slowly and made no sound. The lights did not flash, and he is assuming they were on a structured object that could not be see. The sky was clear, with little wind and the UFO according to him was clearly close enough for him to have heard noise if it had made any. He said he is certain it was not an airplane nor like anything he has ever seen before. A check with the Heard County Sheriff's Department and 911 revealed no other reports except "gunshots were heard behind a nearby rock quarry." A call to LaGrange Calloway Airport (15 miles to the southeast) showed that no planes fitting the description of the alleged unknown object landed there on Friday night. An investigation will be completed. Best Regards, John Thompson. US MIDWEST --- Experts Say Flash Was a Meteor Dec. 13, 1997 By ( Associated Press) A mysterious flash of light that prompted calls to authorities in four Midwestern states and led to a brief search for an overdue plane was probably caused by a meteor, experts said. The light -- described by many as a glowing orange or red was seen about 8 p.m. CST Friday across hundreds of miles, from Minnesota and Wisconsin south into Iowa and northern Missouri. ``It was a good-sized red ball,'' said Wylie Peterson of Colfax, Wisconsin. ``It had a pretty good tail behind it. It was too big to be a flare.'' A search was organized after a private airplane was reported overdue at the Boyceville, Wis., airport. It was suspended after doubts were raised about whether the plane was missing and the meteor possibility was considered. Astronomy experts at the University of Minnesota and Drake University in Des Moines, Iowa, said the phenomenon was best explained by a single meteor burning through the Earth's atmosphere. December 13th, marks the peak of the annual Germinid meteor shower. Thanks to:UFO Research http://home.fuse.net/task/ OHIO Karen Heaster reports that on October 29 at 6:15 PM, three car loads of professional workers were going home (north of Marietta, Ohio) when a 300 foot long object with portholes appeared before them in front of a cloud. All three cars pulled off the road to look at it. After 15 seconds it seemed to pull back into the cloud which turned red. The cloud and object then disappeared. No further information is available at this time. Thanks to: Ted.Spickler.B @bayer.com and the American UFO Newsletter (Bob Teets, Headline Books, WV). Rob McConnell reports that on December 15, "I received a telephone call from a lady who lives near Wright Patterson AFB. The lady told me that since 1994 she has witnessed, along with some 20 neighbors, multiple UFO sightings and 2 craft landings." (Prebles County, Ohio) The lady told me that she has called the Defense Department, NORAD, the USAF and other US governmental agencies telling her sighting stories - to which she has, allegedly, never received any answers. The description of the crafts involved, according to the witness, are very bright white with an outer rim of red. In one case, she observed USAF jets attempting to intercept these UFOs. In another incident, this lady also saw a craft emit a green beam. I will have more information on this case, and will post it, along with a transcript of the radio interview I will be doing with her this coming Saturday, December 20 on The 'X' Zone Radio Show. Sheriff Hayes of the Preble's County Sheriff Office and the Register Herald in Eaton, Ohio have confirmed that the witness called in and reported UFO activity. Specific dates of sightings include: April 96, April 97, September 97. Thanks to Rob McConnell, Producer & Host, of The 'X' Radio and TV Programs, www.x-chronciles.com NEVADA On December 9th, a bright red, non-blinking object, about five times as large as a bright star, hovered over the Reno area for about an hour, from 5:15 PM to 6:15 PM Pacific time. Radio Station KKOH (780AM) received lots of phone calls about the sighting. The Reno Police Station said they received no calls. The Reno Airport said they were watching the object, nothing on radar, and estimated its speeds same as upper winds speeds. They ruled out a balloon because the object came to complete stops, becoming stationary at times. The Desert Research Institute, which releases balloons, reported nothing from them in the sky. The Naval Air Station said they did not see the object, but had nothing in the skies at that time. The object headed south at about 6:15 PM Pacific time. The Reno Gazette-Journal ran a small notice of the sighting on the second page of its second section today, 12/10/97. Thanks to Skywatch and Doc in Phoenix CHILE On Wednesday, November 26, 1997, at 11:34 p.m., Pilar Olazabal was driving home with her friends, Juana Villalobos Moreno and Carlos Iturbide Masana, in Punta Arenas, the southernmost city in Chile, when the two women spied an oval shape that looked like it was on fire. It illuminated the road in 300 meters in front of them. The strangest part is that it was seen only by the two women and not by the man." Juana dropped off her friend and started to drive back to her own apartment. Ten minutes later, "on one of the main streets of Punta Arenas, she saw a bright object behind her car," in the rear-view mirror. "It was closing in very fast, at about 50 meters (165 feet) behind her and 20 meters (66 feet) off the ground. The UFO was oval in shape with red, yellow, blue and green lights that rotated very fast. She stopped her car, and the object flew over her car at 20 meters above, and she got a good look at the UFO. It then accelerated at very high speed, heading for the Strait of Magellan." The sighting was investigated by Bertran Cardenas of Agrupacion de Investigaciones Ovniologicas (AION), Chile's foremost UFO study group. On Tuesday, December 9, 1997, another UFO was observed with binoculars "The UFO had the shape of a ring of smoke with a ball in the middle and then changed into a solid metallic sphere. A video was taken and looks similar to the one filmed in Mexico during a lunar eclipse. Rodrigo Fuenzalida (president of AION) was being interviewed on Channel 4 with the Chilean Air Force Captain Cristian Puebla who is an Aeronautics Engineer, Professor at the Air Force Politechnical School and Coordinator of Space Projects. When the Captain was asked about the UFO's registered over Chilean soil, he said the following "Yes, these UFO's have appeared all over our country and by the way they behave and maneuver I can only say that they are extraterrestrial in origin. It is impossible that these UFO's are man- made". This was said publicly on Channel 4 TV. Many other sighting have been reported in the last few weeks with one landing in a military practice field near Santiago. Thanks to Luis Sanchez (Thanks to Luis Sanchez Perry and UFO Roundup #49 Joe Trainor Editor . ITALY: On November 15, 1997, at about 4 p.m., two teenaged boys spotted a UFO over their hometown of Siracusa, a port city in Sicily on the Golfo di Augusta, 224 kilometers (140 miles) southeast of Palermo. Grabbing a 35mm camera, the boys shot several photos "of an object of discoidal form" as it "moved about in an erratic manner through the skies above Siracusa." The UFO also "periodically halted in mid-air" from time to time. They described the object as having the shiny reflective surface "of the glass of a window." (See the Italian newspaper Giornale di Sicilia for November 30, 1997. Grazie a Edoardo Russo e Antonio Rapulla per questo rapporto.) Thanks to UFO Roundup, Joe Trainor editor. PACIFIC OCEAN Alfred J. Quiroz reports that while he was Quartermaster of the Watch enroute from Midway Island to Guam in January 21, 1966, he saw five lights in a "V" formation heading west. The objects were at a very high altitude and similar to the Echo satellite of that period. After chewing out the lookouts for not reporting the UFO's I logged in the sighting in the ship's log. The weather was clear and visibility was 20 miles. The entire bridge observed the formation. We had no radar contact. We assumed they were a flight of B-52's enroute to Guam. We contacted Guam and several other bases that all denied having aircraft in our area. As we observed the UFOs with 7 X 50 binoculars, the object executed a 90 degree turn, accelerated and sped off at an extremely high speed and disappeared heading south. The disappearance was like a very fast fade out. The Officer of the Deck lowered his binoculars and quietly exclaimed, "Gentlemen I believe you call those ! UFOs." I logged in the sighting and the maneuver. The ship's log mysteriously disappeared a few months later. There was another incident that occurred while on daylight patrol in the Tonkin Gulf in March. The lookouts reported a shiny object floating just below the surface ahead of the ship. The object was a silver ball about 3-4 feet in diameter and it appeared to be heavy. The Captain ordered the ship to stop and all equipment was turned off. Officers hurriedly searched through manuals on Warsaw Pact mines and nothing was found that matched what we were looking at 200 yards away. The Captain called in a helicopter from the carrier we were operating with. It hovered over the object and lowered a sonar boom. The pilot was on the loudspeaker of the bridge so we were hearing his description of the object. Silver, metallic sphere, no seams, marking or rivets, just an independent ball floating just below the surface. At this point the pilot decided to have his door gunner open fire on the object. I was trying to film all of this with my 8mm movie camera. The distance was too much for my camera. The pilot reported that the bullets were bouncing off. The pilot suddenly excited yells "Whoa, that damn thing just took off!" Somebody yank that thing down," the pilot exclaimed. Our captain immediately ordered everything turned back on and General Quarters was sounded and we proceeded to our ASW (Antisubmarine warfare) stations. We searched for 72 hours and found nothing. I am curious if anyone else or ship reported an incident like this one. Phone # 520-327-327, Tucson, AZ 85713. Thanks to ISUR and John Thompson. COLUMBIA BOGOTA (Reuters) - A meteorite may have triggered a fire that killed four small children in central Colombia. Bogota's El Espectador newspaper quoted witnesses, including the children's father and local firefighters, as saying "fireballs" had been spotted raining down from the sky in the impoverished area of Huila province where the children died in the house fire on Sunday evening. The children, all under six, were alone in their ramshackle house when the fire broke out. A hole, measuring about 10 inches in diameter, was discovered in the zinc roof of the house, along with traces of a sulfur-like substance that was being studied in a local laboratory. The hole in the roof had been punched from the outside, Rojas said, adding that everything seemed to indicate the children were the unwitting victims of a meteorite. GREENLAND Niels Bohr Institute in Denmark , announced a big meteor impact has probably occurred in Southern Greenland at 61 25N, 44 26W on Tuesday, December 9th, 5:00 AM. The position is on the ice cap approximately 50 kilometers NE of Narsarsuaq Airport. Based on fairly accurate direction findings and the fact, that Danish and Norwegian trawlers were situated on both sides of Southern Greenland it can be determined, that the meteorite fell on land. Greenland saw the huge light in the early hours of Tuesday morning last week. Observations of the satellite light track from Nuuk indicates that the meteorite passed a bit south of Nuuk in a southeasterly direction towards the mentioned impact site in Southern Greenland. The flashes observed in conjunction with the meteorite were so bright as to turn night into daylight at a distance of 100 kilometers and can be compared to the light of a nuclear explosion in the atmosphere. However, we stress that there is no reason to believe other than natural causes. During the day, the position will be over flown by an ice reconnaissance plane, from the Ice Central in Narsarsuaq on its planned flight from Kap Farvel to Nuuk. The event can in size probably be compared to the Kap York meteorite, that in prehistoric time fell in Melville Bay, Sassivik south of Thule. Findings from the meteorite consist of a number of iron meteorites totaling 50 tons. UNITED KINGDOM Victor Kean has compiled the data on the increasing high rate of Flying Triangles (FT) sightings over Southeastern England. During July of 1997, there were 63 observed FT visits to the Nuclear Power Station at Sizewell, Suffolk. Up from 61 sightings in May and 62 in June. The Bradwell, Essex Nuclear Power Station received 39 observed visits in July also up from the 35 visits in May and 26 in June. The Dungeness,(Lydd), Kent Nuclear Power Station (NPS)had 27 observed visits in July. This is a slight downturn from 31 in June and 28 in May. There were no sightings during July of the Grey FT with Amber or Orange lights. On July 3rd the Flying Triangle was seen over the Bradwell NPS at 2340 hours and over both the Sizewell NPS and the Dungeness NPS at 2345 hours some 94 miles apart suggesting that two Flying Triangles were in 'operation' during that Working Period. The last sighting of this was at 0155 hours at Sizewell. This was a remarkably short Working Period of only 2 hours 15 minutes compared with the 'normal' 4 to 5 hours. Thanks to Victor Kean and the FT Group. MARS The Pathfinder Robot uncovered evidence that Mars was once warm, moist and more like Earth than its forbidding surface might now suggest. The Martian plain was sculpted by liquid water in the past that proves that the planet was once much warmer. John T. Scholfield of the Jet Populsion Laboratory stated in an AP interview that "There's nothing we found that would preclude life on early Mars." Some rocks on Mars bore evidence that they were formed on a lake shore or even under water. Reuters reports that a mishap that forced the Mars Global Surveyor to make emergency flight changes has led to a surprising wealth of data on the planet, including pictures of a dust storm the size of the southern Atlantic. "This will affect all the incoming data for the next two years," Arden Albee, chief scientist on the project. "It gives us some very significant science that we couldn't have gotten in the normal design. We come very close to the surface of Mars, much closer than we would have." Global Surveyor arrived to orbit Mars in September, almost unnoticed amid the fanfare surrounding the Mars Pathfinder mission and hobbled by an equipment mishap. The problem arose shortly after launch in November 1996, when one of the two arms holding Surveyor's solar panels did not deploy properly. The problem forced Surveyor, which is carrying an array of sensors and cameras to map and analyze Earth's closest neighbor, to alter its orbit not to put too much pressure on the arm. The flight change means the spacecraft must now fly backward and will not reach its final intended position until March 1999, one year behind schedule. Nevertheless, scientists said the new elliptical orbit, which brings Surveyor to within 75 miles of the surface instead of the planned 250 miles, was giving its cameras an eyeful. "We have canyons which are hardly named which are steeper and deeper than the Grand Canyon." Albee, of the California Institute of Technology, said. "We'd never have been gutsy enough to design the mission this way." The main focus of scientific interest now is a huge dust storm that Surveyor has tracked from its beginnings two weeks ago as a small disturbance toward Mars' south pole. "It is currently about the size of the southern Atlantic. We don't know if it will grow into a global dust storm," Albee said. Mike Malin, responsible for the cameras on Surveyor, said it did not appear the storm would spread over the rest of the planet and that was good, because there were plenty of other things to look at. Among them were layers of rock that could suggest evidence of deposition by water at some point in the planet's past and small depressions that Malin said might be the empty beds of Martian ponds. "This would be the first evidence that seems plausible of standing bodies of water on Mars," Malin said. Editors Note: Evidence is continuing to mount that intelligent life once existed on Mars and a startling announcement by NASA is likely. HYPOTHESIS Bob Beckwith, a MUFON scientist and engineer sent me a letter stating in part: Magnetic levitation was first demonstrated at Nottingham University by Dr. Peter Main on April 13, 1997. Main's experiment was verified at the National High Magnetic Laboratory at Florida State University on December 1, 1997. These landmark experiments far overshadow the first experiments demonstrating the splitting of the atom...On December 7, 1997, American Computer Company released information about the "Transfer Capacitor" obtained in 1947 from Roswell by IBM and AT&T, but not recognized for 50 years as significant. Roswell as the origin of the transistor in 1947 is now well documented. Other Roswell material was distributed to industry in 1960. Pressure must be placed on the selected recipients of 1947 material to release the material for further study by the free scientific community. The use of nuclear energy will surely then become obsolete and dangerous as the ultimate in pollution. Our scientific eyes must be opened to the existence of the EBE's in our midst and the vast new knowledge that they bring us. Bob Beckwith with Drew Craig have written an exciting book called, HYPOTHESES, that outlines the future technology being uncovered through the study of UFOs. Thanks to Bob Beckwith at RWB@interramp.com. _________________________________________________________________ _____ ____ _________________________________________________________________ ___________ SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL Administrative: 4757 E. Greenway Rd. Suite #103-84 Phoenix, AZ 85032 USA Membership: PO Box 801 Leander, TX 78646-0801 USA _________________________________________________________________ ___________ Skywatch International and this list service are not responsible for authenticity of posts "What could be stranger than the truth?" Public Services List Postings: Skywatch_ok@msn.com Page of the Executive Director: http://members.aol.com/starmanbh/swi.htm Page of the Executive Director of Communications: http://www.itlnet.net/web/skywatch/oklahoma.html Page of the Executive Director of Finance: http://www.freeyellow.com/members/pappie/index.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 20 Season's Greetings from Philippe Piet van Putten From: postoffice@bluemountain.com (Philippe Piet van Putten) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 14:25:56 -00800 (PST) Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 17:21:15 -0500 Subject: Season's Greetings from Philippe Piet van Putten Philippe Piet van Putten has just sent you an animated greeting card. You can pick up your personal greeting by connecting to the following WWW Address: http://www.bluemountain.com/cards/box4367/youa2494aaw9575.html _______________________________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 20 Corso, ACC, Greer etc... From: Ufojoe1 <Ufojoe1@aol.com> [Joe Murgia] Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:18:07 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 17:28:21 -0500 Subject: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... >> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 07:14:07 +0100 (MET) >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >As long as Corso's story is spread and ACC keeps going, expect >more revelations to come. The suggestion from some people on this >list that Corso should be prohibited from speaking at conferences >and that the ACC thing should stop too, for God's sake, is to me >preposterous. As far as I can see, Pitbull Jack has more brains, >balls and bucks than every next 100 ufologists and is 1,000 times >more effective. It's irony that a formerly disinterested party >now seems to be unraveling the cover up that the UFO community >has been staring at for 50 years. (At least part of it, duhh!) To >some armchair ufologists who haven't mastered the telephone yet >this is of course sour grapes. >Keep going, Jack! My sentiments exactly Henry! Everything you wrote regarding ACC, Corso and other armchair ufologists is how I feel. The only difference is you know how to express yourself well in writing. I am looking for a good email writer to express my thoughts. Are you available? Just kidding! Kind of... Why are most of the people who write on this list so cynical? I mean, healthy skepticism is one thing, closed minds are another. Is most of the UFO community like this? I read posts from April this year where people were complaining about Steven Greer's personality and the way he went about getting his contacts in Washington. Huh? Who the hell cares! If he is successful getting the open hearings, will people on this list still complain that he was mean and played "their" game to do it? I don't understand this logic. I thought getting the truth out in the open was the most important thing here. It sounds like ego comes first with a lot of people. Who else got certain congressional representatives to agree to listen to some of the UFO evidence? I don't see them coming forward. When I talked to my local Congressman about Greer and his D.C. briefings, he was interested and wanted to know more and asked for further information. Greer wrote me and told me to tell the Congressman that he would be happy to fly to Washington or Tampa and brief him in person. I'm sure the Congressman was impressed with such vigor on Greer's part. Also, a representative from Greer's group called me just to discuss the current situation that was going on regarding the briefings and the whole UFO matter. I'm meeting with him next week just to have a discussion about UFO related current events. This guy is a really nice person. What, a nice person connected with that evil minded, egotistical Dr.Greer? It's unheard of! Greer is doing what it takes to get the open hearings. I would think he's financially backed by somebody or he wouldn't be able to do some of the things he does. I hope he plays "their" game to a T and gets the hearings. That's what I told my Mom and Wife that I wanted for Xmas. Open UFO hearings in Congress! I don't mind wating a couple of months or years if that's what it takes. Keep it up Dr. Greer! Joe Murgia Tampa, Florida Ufojoe1@aol.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 20 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 06:19:56 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 17:35:39 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:07:45 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >>Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:16:29 +0100 (MET) >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > The problem is that his answers >never go beyond the "facts" that are outlined in the book. He >has been unable to provide any further documentation or >information that could help researchers in checking into his >allegations. Which is simply the fault of the investigators. He seems to have given notes to Birnes. If nobody asks for copies, then the man may be unaware of the requirement for further evidence. So the wisest thing to do is ask for them. But alas, nobody does. Of course he doesn't sound like a liar, as it >appears that he truly believes that what he is claiming is the >truth. The problem is that there is no way to verify whether he >is one of the most important people in our history or simply >delusional. > See above. And I disagree, because the possibilities to verify Corso's claims are virtually endless. You could start with the notes, then the family of Corso, then the family of Trudeau, ask them for documents, photographs, etc., etc. Since nobody is doing that, the problem is really with the Ufological community that seems to have only two possibilities: either let him speak and moan that the only thing he gives is anecdotes or dismiss him altogether. >>If he is telling the truth perhaps other people will come forward >>and confirm his story or parts of it. To a certain extent that >>has already happened. A week or so ago someone posted a story >>about an alleged extraterrestrial project at Monsanto, one of the >>companies in Corso's book. If I remember correctly the post was >>from Kenny Young of TASK. >If others would come forward, that would help. Of course, we >always hope for something more solid than annecdotal claims. You can hope as long as you like, but investigating would be more productive. >The only link between Corso and the ACC story is the claim that >ET technology has been recovered and has since become a part of >our own technological development. Shulman at ACC goes to great >pains to keep his claims seperate from Corso's, indicating that >he had never heard of Corso or read his book prior to the ACC web >statement. Which, obviously, only strengthens both cases. And of course, it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. If Shulman had contacted Corso before about this, he would by now be accused of cooking up a master plan to boost both sales of Corso's book and ACC's pc's. >Corso, meanwhile, has not indicated any involvement >in the seeding of "transistor" technology at Bell Labs. Quite predictably not, because he arrived on the scene in 1960. But in his book are at least five different references where Corso unequivocally states that the transistor seeding was in fact done by the military, though not by him. In another post of mine I explained that on Sightings Shulman said he has tracked the movement of the intact UFO and specifically referred to parts of it that ended up at the Pentagon. Because he obviously assumes the cases are linked, Shulman has announced on his latest appearance that he is to set up a meeting with Corso. >So, I'm >at a loss as to why you would believe that one would lend >credence to the other. Both stand, or fall, on their own merits. So obviously you missed some things. What you are stating is simply confirmation of a general Ufological rule I formulated that when a case is composed of various types of evidence, each will be artificially separated from the others and the case will be explained away piece by piece. >>Keep going, Jack! >If you've followed the ACC story from the beginning, you see that >Shulman has had an ax to grind since the death of a friend many >years earlier, and that would seem to make him an "interested" >party in this matter. So? >I'm curious as to how much of Corso's claims you've checked into? > Some other lists have carried threads that show quite a few >"mistakes" in his book, which don't help its credibility. If he >had prepared himself this poorly before he testified before >Congress regrding Korean POWs, he would have been screened out by >the staff and would have never reached the Floor. Most of these errors were attributed by Corso and Birnes to Birnes. Most of these errors are trivial anyway and should be of no concern. I could give interesting examples of errors in the papers that I read every day which have to do with reporters not knowing all the details and making errors because of deadlines. Nobody bothers about that, unless people are of very bad will and get emotional over the heart of the matter. That, too often, is the case in Ufology and it fools people into thinking that the whole story is a hoax. >The alien technology/transistor story is certainly not new, Where has it appeared before then? >but >it has become the subject of discussion by ACC on the basis of a >"notebook" that no one has been shown. Ed Wang has seen it, because he has developed a relationship with Shulman and has asked for it. Since all other Ufologists seem to have trouble even operating the telephone, they haven't, and are in no position to critisize ACC in the first place. Nonetheless, a constant barrage of criticism flows towards ACC. >Several researchers I >know have been very interested in ACCs claims, since they tend to >support theories they had developed on their own. However, most >of them have moved on to other research, since ACC isn't coming >forward to show the evidence to support its claims. See above about the lab notebook. About the transcapacitor, it's quite normal that a company protects its invention when it is applying for a patent. When the patent is in, there would be more room for disclosure. Since the mainstream press seems to be picking this story up and Shulman is setting up a Lab to further study his transcapacitor, they will have to release more data. As you can imagine, someone who is responsible for a 200 people company must be aware of the scrutiny that is coming, both from the media and from the technological partners he hopes to attract, and of the danger to ACC's reputation when the story is a hoax. In that case, his career is over. So we have two possibilities: - either the story is true or - Shulman is a nut and an incompetent president and should start looking for another job on short notice, since the showdown is coming. Also, the story cooked up by this nut happens to corroberates Corso's to some extent while his employees, Wang, Wolf, FUFOR and the US Air Force are his accomplices. (USAF has confirmed they agree with ACC's assessment that the transistor is out of a military project that involved an object not of this earth). Having listened to four radio interviews with Jack Shulman and having spoken to him on the phone I am assured that the qualification 'genius' would be more appropriate than 'nut'. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 20 Re: Mantle's 'Article' From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 00:28:32 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 17:50:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Mantle's 'Article' Regarding... >From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Schatte] >Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:50:11 EST >Subject: Mantle's "article" Rebecca wrote: >Wonder if this is the same "article" the MUFON Journal published in >the December issue? I hope not. Perhaps someone will confirm if the Journal published Philip's "Beyond Roswell" 'article' which appears on the Paragon site at: http://binky.paragon.co.uk/roswell/beyond/index.html Hesemann wrote: "Nexus Magazine", Volume 3, #6 (Oct-Nov '96). by Michael Hesemann, (C) 1996 THE 'ROSWELL FOOTAGE' RELEASE About a year and a half ago, on 5th May 1995, the London-based film producer Ray Santilli for the first time presented his alleged alien autopsy footage to an audience of invited media representatives and UFO researchers at the London Museum. Even before that date, a very emotional debate had already started. Angry ufologists had challenged Santilli to shut up or work together with them, while others had claimed from the very beginning that the film is a hoax just because it doesn't fit into their concept of what happened in New Mexico in the summer of 1947. In the new Paragon "Beyond Roswell" promotion, it's written: New eyewitness accounts of the Roswell incident seem to suggest the Santilli autopsy footage is real. Philip Mantle ponders new facts, research and expert opinions in search of the truth. In March 1995 London based video and music distributor, Ray Santilli, premiered his alleged alien autopsy film to a select audience. Media researchers and Ufologists alike, gathered in the museum of London to view what has proven to be the most controversial event in the history of UFOs. A debate had already raged among angry UFO researchers who demanded that Santilli either 'shut up' or work with them. Some claimed, even before seeing the film, that it was a hoax, just because it did not fit into their concept of what took place in New Mexico during the summer of 1947. Similarly, from Hesemann's "Nexus Magazine" article: Santilli's marketing policy, his commercial exploitation of the film, his ignorance in the UFO field and his violation of all the unwritten protocols of the UFO community didn't find many friends among ufologists, and quite soon many screamed "Hoax!" without being able to prove anything. One researcher even concluded, "There is no [16 mm] film and no cameraman", after quoting page after page of all the rumours, second- and third-hand information and inconsistencies among Santilli's claims (or alleged claims), to prove that he was right from the very beginning when he suspected a scam, because the being on the autopsy table looked "too humanoid to be an extraterrestrial", yet ignoring that this is exactly how most eyewitnesses describe crashed ufonauts. Unfortunately, those who searched for the truth, wherever it might be, were few in number. Willing to listen to Santilli first, before they judged and checked out the information they could get before asking for more, were mainly Philip Mantle (UK), Bob Shell (USA) and Michael Hesemann (Germany)-the International Research Team (IRT)-joined by Maurizio Baiata and Roberto Pinotti (Italy), Johannes Baron of Buttlar (Germany), Odd-Gunnar Roed (Norway), Hanspeter Wachter (Switzerland), Col. Colman VonKeviczky, Dr Bruce Maccabee, Joe Stefula, Lt. Col. W. C. Stevens, Ted Loman, Robert Morning Sky, Llewellyan Wykel and Dennis Murphy (USA), and others. [...] The following is a summary of results from the IRT's first year of investigation. Compared to Mantle's "Beyond Roswell" promotion: Santilli's marketing policy, his commercial exploitation of the film and his ignorance of the UFO field did not make him many friends amongst ufologists. It was not long before many such researchers screamed "hoax" without being able to prove anything. One researcher concluded that, "there is no [16mm] film and no cameraman." This self-same researcher cried hoax simply because the creature on the Santilli film looked "too humanoid to be extraterrestrial," but ignored the fact that this is exactly how many UFO witnesses have described the occupants. Unfortunately, those who were willing to check the information available before reaching premature conclusions are few in number. Such researchers, apart from myself, have been Michael Hesemann (Germany), Maurizio and Roberto Pinotti (Italy), Bob Shell, Colonel Colman VonKeviczky, Dr Bruce Maccabee, Joe Stefula, Lt Col Wendelle Stevens, Ted Loman, Robert Morning Sky, Llewllyan Wykel, Theresa Carlson, Steve Kaeser and Dennis Murphy (USA). The following is a summary of the results from the investigation of the Santilli alien autopsy film. [End] The plagiarism is obviously beyond question and even permitted, I can't recall ever seeing anything remotely like this before. A notable distinction which is apparent. From Hesemann's "Nexus Magazine" article: Two segments with three frames each, one clearly showing the autopsy room, were given to Bob Shell, editor of Shutterbug magazine and also a phototechnical consultant for the FBI and the US courts. After a careful physical analysis, Shell confirmed the segments to be pre-1956 16-mm film. In 1956 Kodak changed its film-base from acetate-propionate to triacetate, and the samples were clearly on acetate-propionate film. The film type was Super XX-Panchromatic Safety Film, a high-speed film used for indoor filming but which had a life-span of no more than two years, when cosmic radiation would cause a 'fogging' of the material. Shell is sure the film was exposed and developed within two years. This, at least, dates the film as pre-1958. And from Mantle's "Beyond Roswell" promotion: Two segments of film with three frames each, were given to phototechnical consultant. Following a thorough physical examination, Shell confirmed that the film samples were indeed 16mm and were shot before 1956. In his opinion, Shell feels that the film is representative of the story touted by Santilli and the cameraman. However, Shell stated that further testing on the film would have to be carried out to be absolutely certain of its authenticity. [End] At least we've dropped the absurd, "one clearly showing the autopsy room" claim, although Hesemann no doubt still contends the frames show a "collapsible autopsy table". Collapsing in laughter, maybe. As noted, in doing so, Philip neglects to mention that the frames therefore have nothing whatsoever to do with the 'autopsy' footage. For a full comparison, Hesemann's article can be seen at URL: http://www.peg.apc.org/~nexus/Roswell.html Hesemann recently claimed that, contrary to what we were led to believe, Bob Shell did not ask for any significant amendments to the contents of "Beyond Roswell" and Hesemann wrote, "The book manuscript was presented to Bob with the question is his research result is represented accurately and if he wants to add anything. He denied. Everything was OK for him". I had asked what about Bob's public withdrawal of his "95% certain" statement on the film's likely authenticity, to which Hesemann replied, "Obviously he withdrew his withdrawel or whatever". In summary, Hesemann reiterated, "I repeat for the onethousands time that Bob had the book before it went into print. He did find idiomatic mistakes but NEVER REQUESTED ANY CHANGE OF HIS QUOTED STATEMENTS IN THE BOOK. Ask him if you don't believe me". I did of course, but await a response to Hesemann's contradictory claims. All of the above quotes are factual and I can but merely highlight them for those who remain interested. On Theresa's dedicated, exceptional and absolutely conclusive research - Theresa being the first to _prove_ the video was a special effect - duh... this merits a separate comment and in due course. James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 20 Re: UFO Research and Mapping Tool From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 00:48:50 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 18:08:46 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Research and Mapping Tool >Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:19:47 -0700 >From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: UFO Research and Mapping Tool >'lo listmembers, >To my knowledge, The most comprehensive and complete sightings >database ever recordered on computer has been created by a >software developer named Larry Hatch. It's a DOS program that >maps the world and lists a record of sightings by year. It's >catalog goes all the way back to Ezechial's sighting and contains >sporadic sightings throughout the centuries but starts becoming >dense around the 1700's. Actual recordings of waves don't really [...] >his own sighting data. Larry has put a lot of sleepless nights >into this project and his support is ongoing. >The program is called the UFO Research and Mapping Tool >If interested information can be found at: >http://www.flash.net/~joerit/docs/udemo.htm No doubt about it....Hatch has a corner on the UFO data base "market." You absolutely will not believe what his program can do. Imagine being able to display 14,000 (or whatever the number is now) sighitngs at their locations all over the globe or in flat projection maps. Statistics? He's got 'em. I used it to disprove the CIA's claim that "over 50 percent of UFOs after 1955 were sighitng of the U-2" (remember that last summer?) I used Hatch's program to isolate the years 1955-1960 or so and the time periods 0400-0800 and 1600-2000, when the U=2 would be most likely seen. THere weren't many sigitngs there but, more importantly, ther was no change in the number of sightings in these time periods whe the U-2 started flying. I COULD NOT HAVE DONE THIS WITH ANY OTHER DATA BASE ON SUCH A LARGE SCALE!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 ACC on CNN? From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 08:08:39 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:14:40 -0500 Subject: ACC on CNN? Hi List, I received a post from Newsbytes that had this header: Jack Shulman And ACC Make It To CNN By Craig Menefee Newsbytes 12-9-97 But the article says nothing about when that segment will be aired or was aired. Does someone know more about this? __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 06:44:47 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:08:18 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:57:43 +0100 (MET) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Steven and list, >All so called errors in Corso's book must be attributed to >Birnes and not to Corso, as Corso and Birnes themselves >have stated and as I predicted around July when this >issue came up here first. I didn't have to ask either of >them as it was obvious from the beginning. Why "must" we believe that all the errors in the book have to be attributed to Birnes? Is there some documentary evidence to support that contention, or do we simply "have" to believe that it's true out of faith. Yes, Corso has indicated that he never actually read the final text before it went to print, and claims that Birnes included a lot of material that he had not included in his "notes". But that is only a claim unless Corso provides the actual notes sent to Birnes and we can make up our own minds as to what was later added to complete the book. >All this nonsense about Corso's so called errors is >entirely irrelevant and the product of minds that make a >mountain out of every molehill while so far ACC as well >as Kenny Young have come with corroberative information. ACC has announced nothing to substantiate the technological claims of Corso. ACCs claim deals with technology developed some 12 years before Corso's involvement. There has been no claims made by either ACC or Corso that they were part of the same program, and the net effect of this assumption is that you end up using one unsubstantiated claim to back up another unsubstantiated claim. >I will make two new predictions here: >1. More evidence that corroberates Corso's and ACC's claims >will surface I certainly hope so. If Corso isn't tied up in a legal knot, and his health holds out, he claims to have a lot more material of interest. However, he failed to mention any of it while promoting his book. A month or so ago his health precluded his travelling to speak about the book, and I'm not sure of his status today. At least one researcher has expressed an interest in working with him to get additional material out into the open, but the legal arrangement he has with Birnes and the publisher may preclude such a deal. >2. Amateur Ufologists will accuse more people to be part of a >giant conspiracy to sell Corso's book and to help ACC with their >commercial ploy. If Ed Wang, FUFOR and the US Air Force are >already improving ACC's Christmas sales and bottom line by >revealing that the meeting at Princeton took place where the USAF >acknowledged the alien origin of transistor technology, then next >in line will be the CIA, the NSA and Clinton's new dog. I've read all of the ACC material on the "net", and you must have some document that I've failed to notice. May I ask what you perceive FUFOR's involvement to be in this matter? Beyond that, can you explain where you get the impression that the USAF has "acknowledged" any of ACCs claims? As many of these allegations are repeatedly mentioned on the "net", the line between "allegation" and "fact" has become hopelessly blurred. I truly believe we have to keep an open mind in dealing with these issues, but we also have to keep at least one foot on the ground to keep from getting blown away. To be honest, I am more sympathetic to the claims made by ACC and Corso than this post would seem to indicate. I also don't care if ACC wants to use this issue to increase its sales, which is all a part of our capitalistic economy. But it's probably a mistake to claim that we're about to win the war when we're not even sure that these new "recruits" have any ammunition for their weopens (sorry, bad analogy....but it's early in the morning). Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 Shulman Exposes Ultra-Secret Military ET From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:36:21 +0200 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:11:11 -0500 Subject: Shulman Exposes Ultra-Secret Military ET Received via "alt.alien.visitors" December 20 at 12.19 local time (GMT + 1 hour). ******* Date: 20 Dec 1997 11:06:13 GMT From: "ufotruth@ix.netcom.com" < ufotruth@ix.netcom.com> Subject: JACK SHULMAN EXPOSES TOP SECRET ET ORGANIZATION! Message-ID: <01bcc676$88375720$2908b8cd@default> Jack Shulman Exposes Hidden Ultra-Secret ET Military Organization Stunning Development Revealed on Jeff's Friday Show 12-20-97 In an EXCLUSIVE breaking story, Jack Shulman, the President of the American Computer Company, announced on Jeff Rense's Sightings On the Radio program, Friday, 12-19-97, that he and his associates have discovered a heretofore ultra secret, UNKNOWN, apparent Black Budget, deeply buried, military organization which deals with, and may direct and operate, our UFO/ET policy. Jeff broke into his regular program at 9:06 pm Pacific to get the story from Shulman, who is deeply involved with what is, so far, perhaps the biggest UFO/ET story since the landmark Roswell event(s) 50 years ago. (see "Jack Shulman And ACC Make It To CNN" and other ACC stories). On the show, Shulman related an amazing string of events which culminated when he and other ACC personnel, along with Investigator/Journalist Bob Wolf, had what amounted to a confrontation with Air Force personnel at the Pentagon. During the course of what was described as a rather heated encounter, Air Force personnel are said to have disclosed accidentally, or otherwise, the existence of this invisible military organization within the Department of Defense THAT NO ONE HAS EVER HEARD OF BEFORE. Shulman said it is called the Extraterrestrial Space Command Directorate, or simply "E2SCD." As stated, this military group, branch, or operational unit, officially DOES NOT EXIST in any readily locatable government or military archive or database. Jack stated the unit is probably referred to simply as "E2" by those in it or those who have a need to know of its existence. Further, Jack explained to Jeff how when he and his associates were first going through the now famous 'laboratory notebook', which apparently reveals the true origin of the transistor (recovered ET technology), they observed several "E2" notations in the text. Not having any idea what "E2" stood for at the time, Jack and his team of scientists assumed "E2" to be some type of engineering symbol or code. Today's revelation may have solved that mystery and could confirm the existence of this ultra secret elite military UFO organization far at least as long as 50 years ago. Shulman said a thorough search of the Library of Congress and all immediately available government data bases revealed NO DATA on the "Extraterrestrial Electronics Space Directorate", or "E2SCD." In a related issue, Shulman said it now appears the orginal top secret fax that American Computer mysteriously received several months ago is now believed by Jack Shulman, at least, to have originated from a satellite which may well belong to, and be operated by, the secret E2 organization. The discovery of such an ultra secret organization lends credence to many years of suspicion and assertions by a number of researchers such as Stanton Friedman that an organization of scientists and key players commonly called "MJ-12" exists, and that it directs the military's deep cover, ultra secret ET program. This story is just beginning. Updates as available. Search for other documents from or mentioning: stig_agermose | ufotruth
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 ACC's Transpacitor - The ultimate energy store? From: "Hendrik Rademaker" <hradem@worldonline.nl> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:41:36 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:12:31 -0500 Subject: ACC's Transpacitor - The ultimate energy store? Hello List, Reading the article about the new device from ACC I was quite surprised about the properties of this device, as anyone would have been reading the article. If this turns out to be not a hoax or some clever advertising campain from ACC this is gonna shake the science tree quite a bit. And maybe much more. Implications would be: - super fast computers - super power efficient computers, since no heat is generated - super big memory available to programmers (Bill will love this) - the ultimate energy storage device, no loss (finaly electric cars?) - etc.. Does anyone knows where any official scientiffic information on the subject can be found (and not the ACC homepage) Cheers and a Merry X-mas, Hendrik Rademaker hradem@worldonline.nl
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 NSA's Global Electronic Spy Network Officially From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:04:26 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:04:26 -0500 Subject: NSA's Global Electronic Spy Network Officially From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) To: updates@globalserve.net Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:50:37 +0200 Subject: NSA's Global Electronic Spy Network Officially Acknowledged Released by the Electronic (Daily) Telegraph December 16. URL: http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=3D000239087618192&rtmo=3DVS6r3DqK&atmo= =3DV S6r3DqK&pg=3D/et/97/12/16/ecspy16.html Menwith Hill is situated in the UK at 52=BA 52" N, 03=BA 03" W, and the "Photo of the Menwith Hill installation" link http://www.fas.org/irp/overhead/menwith.htm refers to a site maintained by John Pike, where you'll find a map of the area as well. The text accompanying the photo reads: "The 1996 Strategic Assessment by the National Defense University includes a chapter on Intelligence which includes the following aerial photograph, captioned "Overseas collection site with covered antennae."" The "Cooking up a charter for snooping" link http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=3D000239087618192&rtmo=3DVmP1w5Fx&atmo= =3Dp 3IUbBUe&pg=3D/et/97/12/16/ecspy116.html in the Electronic Telegraph's NSA item furnishes this information: "Britain is bound to the national security interests of other nations. In 1947 the governments of the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand signed a national security pact known as the United Kingdom - United States (UKUSA) agreement. Its intention was to seal an intelligence bond in which a common national security objective was created. Disclosures to the US Congress reveal some of the functions of the agreements. Under the terms of the five nations carved up the Earth into five spheres of influence, and each country was assigned particular targets. (Britain was responsible for intercepting the Chinese). The UKUSA Agreement standardised terminology, code words, intercept handling procedures, arrangements for cooperation, sharing of information, and access to facilities. One important component of the agreement was the exchange of data and personnel. The link means that NSA operatives from Fort Meade could work from Menwith Hill to intercept local communications without either nation having to formally approve or disclose the interception." This is the article from the Electronic Telegraph. The links are preceded by a square: **** Tuesday 16 December 1997 Issue 936 Spies like US A European Commission report warns that the United States has developed an extensive network spying on European citizens and we should all be worried. Simon Davies reports =B0Photo of the Menwith Hill installation =B0Cooking up a charter for snooping A GLOBAL electronic spy network that can eavesdrop on every telephone, email and telex communication around the world will be officially acknowledged for the first time in a European Commission report to be delivered this week. The report - Assessing the Technologies of Political Control - was commissioned last year by the Civil Liberties Committee of the European Parliament. It contains details of a network of American-controlled intelligence stations on British soil and around the world, that "routinely and indiscriminately" monitor countless phone, fax and email messages. It states: "Within Europe all email telephone and fax communications are routinely intercepted by the United States National Security Agency transfering all target information from the European mainland via the strategic hub of London then by satellite to Fort Meade in Maryland via the crucial hub at Menwith Hill in the North York moors in the UK." The report confirms for the first time the existence of the secretive ECHELON system. Until now, evidence of such astounding technology has been patchy and anecdotal. But the report - to be discussed on Thursday by the committee of the office of Science and Technology Assessment in Luxembourg - confirms that the citizens of Britain and other European states are subject to an intensity of surveillance far in excess of that imagined by most parliaments. Its findings are certain to excite the concern of MEPs. "The ECHELON system forms part of the UKUSA system (=B0Cooking up a charter for snooping) but unlike many of the electronic spy systems developed during the Cold War, ECHELON is designed primarily for non-military targets: governments, organizations and businesses in virtually every country. "The ECHELON system works by indiscriminately intercepting very large quantities of communications and then siphoning out what is valuable using artificial intelligence aids like MEMEX to find key words". According to the report, ECHELON uses a number of national dictionaries containing key words of interest to each country. For more than a decade, former agents of US, British, Canadian and New Zealand national security agencies have claimed that the monitoring of electronic communications has become endemic throughout the world. Rumours have circulated that new technologies have been developed which have the capability to search most of the world's telex, fax and email networks for "key words". Phone calls, they claim, can be automatically analysed for key words. Former signals intelligence operatives have claimed that spy bases controlled by America have the ability to search nearly all data communications for key words. They claim that ECHELON automatically analyses most email messaging for "precursor" data which assists intelligence agencies to determine targets. According to former Canadian Security Establishment agent Mike Frost, a voice recognition system called Oratory has been used for some years to intercept diplomatic calls. The driving force behind the report is Glyn Ford, Labour MEP for Greater Manchester East. He believes that the report is crucial to the future of civil liberties in Europe. "In the civil liberties committee we spend a great deal of time debating issues such as free movement, immigration and drugs. Technology always sits at the centre of these discussions. There are times in history when technology helps democratise, and times when it helps centralise. This is a time of centralisation. The justice and home affairs pillar of Europe has become more powerful without a corresponding strengthening of civil liberties." The report recommends a variety of measures for dealing with the increasing power of the technologies of surveillance being used at Menwith Hill and other centres. It bluntly advises: "The European Parliament should reject proposals from the United States for making private messages via the global communications network (Internet) accessible to US intelligence agencies." The report also urges a fundamental review of the involvement of the American NSA (National Security Agency) in Europe, suggesting that their activities be either scaled down, or become more open and accountable. Such concerns have been privately expressed by governments and MEPs since the Cold War, but surveillance has continued to expand. US intelligence activity in Britain has enjoyed a steady growth throughout the past two decades. The principal motivation for this rush of development is the US interest in commercial espionage. In the Fifties, during the development of the "special relationship" between America and Britain, one US institution was singled out for special attention. The NSA, the world's biggest and most powerful signals intelligence organisation, received approval to set up a network of spy stations throughout Britain. Their role was to provide military, diplomatic and economic intelligence by intercepting communications from throughout the Northern Hemisphere. The NSA is one of the shadowiest of the US intelligence agencies. Until a few years ago, it existence was a secret and its charter and any mention of its duties are still classified. However, it does have a Web site (=B0www.nsa.gov:8080) in which it describes itself as being responsible for the signals intelligence and communications security activities of the US government. One of its bases, Menwith Hill, was to become the biggest spy station in the world. Its ears - known as radomes - are capable of listening in to vast chunks of the communications spectrum throughout Europe and the old Soviet Union. In its first decade the base sucked data from cables and microwave links running through a nearby Post Office tower, but the communications revolutions of the Seventies and Eighties gave the base a capability that even its architects could scarcely have been able to imagine. With the creation of Intelsat and digital telecommunications, Menwith and other stations developed the capability to eavesdrop on an extensive scale on fax, telex and voice messages. Then, with the development of the Internet, electronic mail and electronic commerce, the listening posts were able to increase their monitoring capability to eavesdrop on an unprecedented spectrum of personal and business communications. This activity has been all but ignored by the UK Parliament. When Labour MPs raised questions about the activities of the NSA, the Government invoked secrecy rules. It has been the same for 40 years. Glyn Ford hopes that his report may be the first step in a long road to more openness. "Some democratically elected body should surely have a right to know at some level. At the moment that's nowhere". =B0See also in this week's issue: =B0Pretty good Phil bounces back (a report on the consolidation of the reputation of Phil Zimmermann, creator of PGP). 14 October 1997: =B0Europe's private parts to expand =A9 Copyright Telegraph Group Limited 1997. Terms & Conditions of reading. Information about Telegraph Group Limited and Electronic Telegraph. "Electronic Telegraph" and "The Daily Telegraph" are trademarks of Telegraph Group Limited. These marks may not be copied or used without permission. 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #206 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 06:55:10 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:13:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #206 Apology to MW #206 (For December 20, 1997) You wouldn't know the deal if it bit you on the ass? Your brains would run from ears; you=92d be in shock, and stand aghast? Rock too hard on these foundations, and the heavens crack and fall -- falling down around mad ears, never really there at all=85 Our living's so peripheral, as it's base shifts in the sands, while the sky you see above you is without surcease or end. The potential of that sky can draw a whimper from the strong, sorely test the courage, make you doubt and think you're wrong. You're pushed too hard believing that the answer is at hand -- that UFO's are landing undersea -- upon the land. Then "bait and switch" is offered up as proof of your infusion; you're derisive of the Mexican who has FILMED your main confusion. My laughing ass has come undone, is rolling on the floor. It rolls on down the street unshamed, though it guffaws it implores. "Open up your mind," it says. "Don't give in to the man. Broaden up your scope -- (ah hell) =85yank _hard_ down on his gland"! Pull the damn thing off, I say, just yanking ain't enough. =85stop taking shit from Congressmen, those betrayers of the trust =85! There _is_ some dark truth afoot, and it reeks of fish in Denmark! Conspiracy's alive! We see its sign and hallmark! Whipped into a frenzy by those who sell soft soap, we are dazzled by anomaly _contrived_ to make us dopes! Have you checked into the multiverse? Have you felt its length and girth! Do you really think we're all alone? Do you think that we're the first? =85Discount the paranormal? Think the concept's full of shit -- when it's _fact_ mere observation changes _all_ that's scanned with it? Got your Walmart's and your Save-U? Well then I guess _you've_ got it made! You're in the pink and nothing stinks -- you're laid back in the shade! You've got a job, the works not hard, you're even getting laid? Well, slap and call me Susan, cousin; just dismiss all that I've said. Lehmberg@snowhill.com All of it. On an exhaustive internal investigation of their record, the CIA has absolved itself of all wrongdoing and conspiracy allegations in the matter regarding the involvement of a profit made from the transportation and sale of illicit drugs. If it's good enough for the patronizing talking heads of network news, and it's good enough for the individual's with pre programmed brain cells, then, what's _my_ problem =85 don't I watch the news? "It's true Marge! =85 didn't you here the music"? -- Homer Simpson. -- Explore the Alien View? http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/ "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake for not believing the music.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 Chat with Tom McHugh, UFO satirist From: "Yvonne Hedenland" <VONNI_H@classic.msn.com> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 97 13:01:23 UT Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:17:10 -0500 Subject: Chat with Tom McHugh, UFO satirist Join guest Tom McHugh, author of Flying Saucers are Everywhere, along with the UFO Forum and the Comedy Forum, on December 23rd, 6pm PT, for a special holiday laugh as we take a look at this outrageous spoof on the world of Ufology. There will even be a quiz, Are You A UFO Contactee? Join us for an evening of fun. This chat is available at http://forums.msn.com/UFO The Briefing Room chat can be accessed by any IRC client. The chat server name is publicchat.msn.com and the room or channel name is #briefing.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 Re: Brasilia's Letter From: "A. J. Gevaerd" <gevaerd@gold.alanet.com.br> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 10:14:42 -0200 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:19:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter +++ FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE +++ The First World UFO Forum, Brasilia (Brazil), 07 to 14 December, produced a letter that was delivered to some authorities invited to represent Brazilian's Federal Government and the Ministry of Aeronautics. This document was called Brasilia's Letter and consisted of a respectfull request for our government to open a few files about UFOs. Its contents is bellow. The structure of that document is simple: the Brazilian UFO Comission, on behalf of the entire Brazilian UFO Community, wished to address to our government our concerns towards the UFO Phenomena and ask for immediate actions including research, investigation and dissemination public information about the subject. The Brazilian UFO Comission, who hosted the Forum, asked the support of the international UFO speakers present, representing their local UFO communities in that action, just by signing the document. By doing that they would make it clear that they approve and recommend our letter. We expected to have massive support from these people and fortunately we had! We invited all the 70 domestic and international speakers present at the Forum to sign the document, but a few of them left earlier and couldn't do so. Others decided not to sign: Stanton Friedman (Canada), Mark Carlotto, Donald Ware, Peter Davenport (EUA) and Alegandro Agostinelli (Argentina). Per Andersen (Denmark), left earlier and let us know by e-mail that he wouldn't sign. All these people had their oppinions and positions fully respected. Although we understand why Mark Carlotto wouldn't sign, since he works for the US Government, we simply cannot understand why people as Stan Friedman, Don Ware and Davenport wouldn't sign. By doing that, they simply refused to support a legitimate request of the Brazilian ufologist to our government. But, all the remaining people did support us and we are immensely gratefull to that! Unfortunately, however, a few copies of this document circulated in several lists on the Internet with the names of the above mentioned people as having signed the Brazilian's Letter. It happened because the FULL letter was scanned and placed on the net, where no one could see who signed and who didn't. So here we express our appologies for having caused any trouble to anyone. Anyway, if we achieve any success in our request to the Brazilian Government, we will let the world know the results. Bellow is the final version of the Brasilia's Letter. Respectfully, A. J. Gevaerd, International Coordinator, World UFO Forum - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bras=EDlia (DF), Brazil, December 14,1997. BRASILIA'S LETTER Brazilian and foreign ufologists, from 19 nations of all continents, gathered at the First World UFO Forum, from December 7 to 14,1997, in the World Parliament of Ecumenical Fraternity, Parlamundi of the LGW, in Bras=EDlia, Brazil. The following facts were presented in the presence of the Brazilian air force minister: 1. That it is of general knowledge that the UFO phenomenon, represented by the constant visits of space vehicles to planet Earth, is genuine and been independently confirmed by civilian ufologists and military authorities throughout the world for the last 50 years. 2. That the origin of such phenomenon, already identified as extraterrestrial and whose visiting vehicles come from civilizations technologically far advanced than our own, co-exist with us in the Universe. 3. That such civilizations are in a continuous process of approaching Earth and our planetary civilization. Also, that these civilizations, through their maneuvers, most of the time, display no hostility towards us. 4. That the visits of such extraterrestrial civilizations to Earth have been gradually increasing over recent years, accordinq to statistics provided by national and international statistics, not only in quantity but also in intensity. 5. That it is urgent to establish an offcial programme of knowledge, research and public education of the topic. Through such methods, make it clear to the Brazilian population the ever growing, undeniable and extraterrestrial presence on Earth. Thus, considering the adopted attitudes taken by countries who have already recognized the extent of the problem, such as Chile for example, who a few weeks ago established a UFO investigating committee, we respectfully recommend that the Brazilian Air Force, or some of their departments, adopt a similar approach to formulate an appropriate way to discuss the subject at all levels possible. The Brazilian UFO Community, through this act represented by the national researchers whose names appear below and with the full support of the World UFO Community, represented in this act by the undersigned, wishes to volunteer its knowledge, effort and dedication should our proposal become a reality. As an initial point in this process, something that would represent a positive action taken by our authorit=EDes, the Brazilian UFO Community respectfully requests that your Ministry opens the files about at least two specific and remarkable episodes of our UFO research. (a) The Operation Prato, conducted by the First Air Regional Command (COMAR) of Bel=E9m, Par=E1 State, between September and December 1997, that resulted in a large volume document, complemented with more than 500 photos and many films, the movements of UFOs above the Amazon Region, as was confirmed by Coronel Uyrang=EA Bol=EDvar Soares de Hollanda Lima; and (b) Ufological phenomenon which occurred in May of 1986, over the states of Rio de Janeiro and S=E3o Paulo, among others, when more than 20 unknown flying objects were observed, monitored, recorded on radar and were chased by Air Force jets, according to the Aeronautics Minister at that time, Brigadier Oct=E1vio Moreira Lima. Given that civilian and military authorities have been aware of the UFO situation and have monitored it at different levels over past decades, always in the interest of national security, we believe that this initiative and agreement would solidify the beginning of a meaningful and prosperous partnership. Cordially, BRAZILIAN UFO COMMISSION (BUC), who hosted the Forum Ademar Jose Gevaerd Centro Brasileiro de Pesquisas de Discos Voadores (CBPDV) Claudeir Covo Instituto Nacional de Investigacao de Fenomenos Aeroespaciais (INFA) Marco Antonio Petit Associa=E7=E3o Fluminense de Estudos Ufologicos (AFEU) Rafael Cury N=FAcleo de Pesquisas Ufologicas (NPU) Reginaldo de Athayde Centro de Pesquisas Ufologicas (CPU) Ubirajara Franco Rodrigues Instituto Ubirajara Rodrigues S.C. (IUR) BRAZILIAN UFO COMMUNITY, supporting the BUC Ademar Eugenio de Mello (SP) Antonio Faleiro (MG) Cesar Pereira Vanucci (MG) Ana Maria Santos (BA) Basilio Baranoff (SP) Chica Granchi (RJ) Claudio Pamplona (CE) Elias Seixas (RJy Eust=E1quio Andrea Patounas (SC) Haroldo Westendorff (RS) Irene Granchi (RJ) Luciano Stancka e Silva (SP) Oscar Alberto Romero (BA) Ricardo Varela Correa (SP) Romio Cury (PR) Aldo Novak (SP) Emanuel Paranhos (BA) Geraldo Simao Bichara (MG) Hernan Mostajo (RS) Jose Luiz Lanhoso Martins (PA) Manoel Gilson Mitoso (AM) Pedro Cunha (DF) Roberto Affonso Beck (DF) Wilson Geraldo de Oliveira (DF) INTERNATIONAL UFO COMMUNITY, idem Alexandr Balandine (Russ=ECa) Barry Chamish (Israel) Budd Hopkins (United States) David Jacobs (United States) Gabor Tarcali (Hungary) Giorgio Bongiovanni (Italy) Graham Birdsall (England) James Courant (United States) ..........WASN'T PRESENT TO SIGN Jesse Marcel J=FAnior (United States) Michael Hesemann (Germany) Pablo Villarrubia Mauso (Spain) Roberto Pinotti (San Marino) Boris Chourinov (Russia) Colin Andrews (England)..........WASN'T PRESENT TO SIGN Derrel Sims (United States) G. C. Schellhorn (United States) Gildas Bourdais (France) Glennys Mackay (Australia) Jaime Maussan (Mexico) James Hurtak (United States) Mario Dussuel Jurado (Chile) Maurizio Baiata (Italy) Michael Lindemann (United States) Roberto Banchs (Argentina) ...... SIGNED WITH RESTRICTIONS Rodrigo Fuenzalida (Chile) Sun-Shi Li (China) Timo Koskeniemi (Finland) Wendelle Stevens (United States) Yvonne Smith (United States)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 09:43:23 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:21:07 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >From: TotlResrch <TotlResrch@aol.com> [Kal Korff] >Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:38:26 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >The scenario Bob Shell outlines of being ripped-off by >publishers, etc., is one that I cannot relate to >personally...maybe some authors have gotten burned by their >publishers, but I would like to believe (since I have numerous >contacts in the publishing industry and have the luxury of >picking and choosing my publishers, which is very rare) and I >KNOW that most of the (certainly mainstream) publishing industry >simply does not work this way. >Perhaps Shell has had no luck...just like those who have been >trying to get some straight and truthful answers from Ray >ScamTilli and his promoters regarding the alien fraudtopsy case. >:-) >Respectfully yours, >Kal Korff Kal, I do not claim that my experience is universal. But it is fairly common. I've never written a UFO book. My many books have all been on photography and photo topics. Perhaps photographic publishers are less honest than the industry in general. If Prometheus is honest, I applaud them, and hope their ethics will spread through the industry. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 09:43:41 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:21:46 -0500 Subject: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:26:17 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Pope Builds Giant Observatory To Find ETs >Hey Bob, >Yeah, it is very different. One major difference is, they didn't >land on the Whitehouse lawn as everyone expected. Why do you >think you're hearing about this from a nobody like me. They are >introducing themselves to the people (directly) one at a time. >Not to say they haven't contacted our leaders. (If Bubba and >Hillary haven't been 'tagged' yet I'd consider the aliens remiss >in their duties.) But they -have gone- directly to the people. >And, unlike the Catholic Priests, about all they've done so far >is shove things in our noses and keesters and scare the living >daylights out of a few citizens. Although I'm not too choked up >about that either, it beats the hell out of genocide and the >death of our entire culture I'd say. <G> >BTW, kids who are not educated about predators are easy prey! >John Velez Personally, I never expected them to land on the white house lawn. If they are enlightened, the certainly understand that "there is no governor anywhere" and realize that our "need" for government is just a temporary phase that civilization goes through as it matures. So they are contacting those that really matter in our civilization, ordinary people. Some aspects of our culture need to die. We need to lose the idea of government as surrogate parents and take on responsibility ourselves. We need to throw away the crutches of organized religion and look for truth within ourselves. We need to grow up! It's happening, but slowly. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 09:43:56 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:23:12 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] >Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:49:31 PST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Bob, >Thanks for the clarification. It makes me feel a little better; >I didn't want to leave the impression, in my own note, that >all publishers are to be trusted. There are indeed plenty of >horror stories out there. So far, anyway, I've been fortunate. >Jerry Clark Perhaps the difference is that publishers of UFO books, by and large, are smaller firms, and you get more personal attention from them. I've never written a UFO book, and may never. A couple of years ago I was contracted to write a book by one of the largest publishing conglomerates. I got the advance, as agreed. Then, over the course of a year they had three complete personnel changes, and I had three different editors, each of whom had a totally different idea of what the book should be. The last editor they stuck me with was a rabid "feminist", and it was immediately obvious that our personalities were oil and water, and she despised by photographs as well. I just sent them back their advance and withdrew from the project. This and similar crap just doesn't happen with smaller publishing houses, where your editor is often the owner or one of the owners, and major personnel changes are rare. I'm in the middle of negotiations right now with one of the largest publishers in the world for a major book for next year, and I've got all my fingers crossed that I can keep the same editorial contacts and editor until the book is "put to bed". But I'm not counting on it!!!!! Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 09:50:12 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:23:57 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:22:38 +0100 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@istar.ca> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Bob if you have publishers who are screwing you then you should >pass them on as a warning to the rest of us. They won't last long >in the business, once they become known. You don't have to put >them on the list but could issue them privately to those that are >interested, such as myself...and I'm sure many others. >Don Ledger Don, They are some of the major publishing houses, and their subsidiaries. Bigger firms can get away with this sort of thing much more easily than small ones. It's just the same as big corporations. When I was running my own photo magazine we knew that the really big name companies were the ones who would play games when it came to paying their advertising bills. The industry giant typically took at least six months to pay. There was nothing anyone in the industry could do about it. If we wanted their business, we just had to sit back and take it. And they flatly refused to pay interest and late charges! I think corporate ethics of major corporations would make a very short book!! Stick with small publishers and you are probably safe. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:57:33 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:24:45 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:22:38 +0100 > From: Don Ledger <dledger@istar.ca> > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso <snip> > Bob if you have publishers who are screwing you then you should > pass them on as a warning to the rest of us. They won't last long > in the business, once they become known. You don't have to put > them on the list but could issue them privately to those that are > interested, such as myself...and I'm sure many others. > Don Ledger Don, why not put them on the list? I as a reader I would also like to boycott those publishers that screw the authors. John Koopmans
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 NICAP Statements 1957 (for Jan & readers) From: " Jerry Cohen" <rjcohen@li.net> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:46:44 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:27:21 -0500 Subject: NICAP Statements 1957 (for Jan & readers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cordial hello to you Jan Aldrich, I've been trying to catch up on my posts after finishing my rebuttal to Larry Robinson's "SOLVING THE 1965 EXETER NH SIGHTINGS. Article and rebuttal located at: LARRY ROBINSON'S SOLUTION http://php.indiana.edu/~lrobins/howiextr.htm MY REBUTTAL http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/rob.rebut.html . . . Just a point of information regarding some snippets from your early October post below. >Statements by NICAP Officials in 1957 > >From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) >Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 10:16:41 -0700 >Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 11:46:12 -0400 >Subject: Statements by NICAP Officials in 1957 >Here is an interesting newspaper article from 1957 >with statements from both Hillenkoetter and Fournet. >Note that there are several mistakes Charles Maney: >was not a PhD, he was at Defiance College, not University. >Whether Moonwatch teams, at this time, 1957, had UFO sightings >or not is questionable. There were some newspaper accounts >saying that some teams saw something unusual. Later analysis >may have found the answer. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - JC: Whatever the later analyses indicated, and I'd like to see them, one of the members of that team, Walter Webb, made some comments regarding same which were quoted in my Oberg/Cooper series. "I certainly know that in the satellite tracking mission we got a number of things that appeared on the films that were never tracked down; they weren't part of the mission! A person who says that the Baker-Nunn cameras never picked up anything is just dead wrong because I know they did .. I was in charge of the project! We just didn't bother about it. It would have been too much work to investigate some strange lights; it would have diverted men from the job they were supposed to do. . . . " "We received many reports from our Moonwatch stations concerning the strange lights that certainly weren't satellites. Many of these witnesses were amateur astronomers and generally well acquainted with the skies." I believe Webb still supports these comments to this day. If these things were observed at satellite heights, that would probably eliminate "earthlights" and cloud-level anomalies as a probable cause. Some further references to Webb and his comments are located at: http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/ocr.3b.html#anchor904745 Webb's comments were gleaned from CUFOS International UFO Reporter (1/93), appearing approximately 6 years after Hynek's death. They were taken from an article he wrote titled "Allen Hynek As I Knew Him." Webb was (is?) an astronomer at Charles Hayden Planetarium, Boston. He had worked for Dr. Hynek beginning in February 1957 when Dr. Hynek was setting up tracking stations for the Smithsonian Astronomical Observatory. One of the reasons NICAP made the statements they did regarding "UFOs & Moonwatch" was because Webb had became a scientific advisor to their group. They probably felt that since his statements were source related, they were therefore reliable enough to take seriously. Some further information about NICAP can be found at: http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/nicap.html - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - and regarding the following comment: >Dr. Hynek gave Edward Ruppelt a statement for his book >which said that U. S. Moonwatch teams had not reported >any UFOs. Later, in communication with LTC Friend, Project >Blue Book chief, Dr. Hynek was "pained" to say that the >statement as far as he knew was correct at the time he gave >it to Ruppelt, but after Ruppelt's updated "The Report on >Unidentified Flying Objects" went to press, unidentified >sighting reports came in from Moonwatch team personnel. JC: Here's a question for everyone out there: If you were doing the serious work Hynek was performing for NASA via the Smithsonian project, would you be quick to make positive statements regarding a topic that a majority of scientists were still scoffing at back then? I know if I were doing his job, I certainly wouldn't have. Incidentally, it was Webb's comments, along with my own analysis of the "Skything" case that prompted me to use "Skything" as an example in the Oberg/Cooper series as well. It is also why I challenged Paul Devereux to explain it using his earthlights theory concerning "ALL UFOs." "Skything" is located at: http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/ocr.2.html Wishing you and yours a happy holiday season and thanks for all your diligent efforts. Keep up the great work. Sincerely, Jerry Cohen Author: Oberg/Cooper rebuttals Robinson/Exeter rebuttal Website: http://www.li.net/~rjcohen UFOmind: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/people/c/cohen/ P.S. Best wishes for a joyous holiday season to all our readers too.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 The Lesotho Incident From: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de (Joachim Koch) Date: 20 Dec 97 17:16:00 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:28:30 -0500 Subject: The Lesotho Incident Date: 20 Dec 97 19:43:00 GMT From: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de <Joachim Koch> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Subject: The Lesotho Incident Hello Errol, Hello List! During the (hopefully) quiet Christmas Days I am going to prepare another update report of recent developments surrounding the Lesotho Incident and would like to publish it here only. Until then, to you and all readers of this very important and substantial list: Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Froehliche Weihnachten und ein glueckliches neues Jahr! Joachim Koch Berlin, Germany *Homepage International Roswell Initiative, Germany:* > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jkoch1 < *Update December 20,1997*: News about the "Santilli-Film" Other items: Lesotho-Crash, Crop Circles, Betty Hill's Star Map
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 Amazon Book Report From: RSchatte <RSchatte@aol.com> [Rebecca] Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 19:52:02 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:31:00 -0500 Subject: Amazon Book Report ----- From: "We've Found the Books You're Looking For" <eyes@amazon.com> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 04:43:21 -0800 (PST) To: RSchatte@AOL.com Subject: Books whose keywords include "UFO" Hello from Amazon.com Books! As you requested, we are notifying you of new books matching the following criteria: keywords include "UFO" The new books are listed at the end of this message. If you're interested in any of these books, you can order them online at http://www.amazon.com/ . Your most humble automated search agent, Eyes Amazon.com Books http://www.amazon.com/ P.S. Did you know that we can also send you e-mail messages reviewing books in your favorite genres? Sign up for our free Amazon.com Delivers notification service and we'll send you e-mail featuring the titles that our Editors think are outstanding. If you'd like to sign up, visit us at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/subst/editors/editors-signup.html ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Ufo's and Ufology : The First 50 Years" by Paul Devereux, Peter Brookesmith List Price: currently unknown Subjects: Unidentified flying objects; UFOs Publisher: Facts on File Binding: Hardcover Expected publication date: January 1998 ISBN: 0816038007 URL: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0816038007/e
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 Bob Lazar? From: Jacques Poulet <jpoulet@generation.net> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 20:53:13 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:00:43 -0500 Subject: Bob Lazar? Hi All, I want to contact Bob Lazar to invite him to give a lecture in Montreal. The phone number I was given isn't the right one. Does anyone have it? Thanks. Jacques Poulet, Directeur SOS OVNI Qu=E9bec Case Postale 143 St-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Qc CANADA J3B 6Z1 T=E9l:(514)536-0140 Fax:(514)536-0141 http://www.mygale.org/01/jpoulet/ jpoulet@generation.net jpoulet@mygale.org sosovni@aol.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 UFO footage from Scotland From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 02:17:23 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:32:09 -0500 Subject: UFO footage from Scotland Hello Errol, group, We are writing this letter to inform you all that we now have enabled streaming of the video clips from the website at 28 kbps. Unfortunately we have not solved our problem of the downloading of these files when saved. If any fellow members have any suggestions toward our problem,we would be very glad to hear them. We are sorry for any previous inconvenience that we may have caused and can only state to you all that this is a new venture to us and we are prone to mistakes etc. We will improve through time and do not aim to upset anyone. Thankyou all for your time. And please accept our sincere apologies. Good luck to you all and merry Christmas..... Dave Ledger. -- ================================================================== The truth is just around the corner!,................but how far? Visit UFO SCOTLAND at http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger ICQ pager http://wwp.mirabilis.com/4851425 ==================================================================
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 FOIA attorney Peter Gersten chats with visionary From: "Yvonne Hedenland" <VONNI_H@classic.msn.com> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 97 05:41:56 UT Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:42:14 -0500 Subject: FOIA attorney Peter Gersten chats with visionary On Monday, December 22nd at 6 p.m. PT, the Timeless Journeys chatroom's featured guest will be visionary artist AYA. Inspired by a spirit vision in 1985, AYA is creating a line of higher-dimensional mandala-templates, called Star-Wheels. These Star-Wheels are to be shared with the world as 'living holograms.' thus helping to synergise colors, sounds, sacred geometries and ceremonial dances into a celebration of 'who we are.' The Star-Wheels are a sequence of 144 telepathic information mandala-disks scaled-up (and down) to a frequency appropriate for human vibrational perception. These disks are encoded with specific keys to trigger brain activation/transduction. This chat is available at http://forums.msn.com/UFO The Briefing Room chat can be accessed by any IRC client. The chat server name is publicchat.msn.com and the room or channel name is #briefing.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 Re: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 03:05:57 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:46:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... >From: Ufojoe1 <Ufojoe1@aol.com> [Joe Murgia] >Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:18:07 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... >>> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 07:14:07 +0100 (MET) >>> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>> From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >>> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >>As long as Corso's story is spread and ACC keeps going, expect >>more revelations to come. The suggestion from some people on this >>list that Corso should be prohibited from speaking at conferences >>and that the ACC thing should stop too, for God's sake, is to me >>preposterous. As far as I can see, Pitbull Jack has more brains, >>balls and bucks than every next 100 ufologists and is 1,000 times >>more effective. It's irony that a formerly disinterested party >>now seems to be unraveling the cover up that the UFO community >>has been staring at for 50 years. (At least part of it, duhh!) To >>some armchair ufologists who haven't mastered the telephone yet >>this is of course sour grapes. >>Keep going, Jack! >My sentiments exactly Henry! Everything you wrote regarding ACC, >Corso and other armchair ufologists is how I feel. The only >difference is you know how to express yourself well in writing. I >am looking for a good email writer to express my thoughts. Are >you available? Just kidding! Kind of... >Why are most of the people who write on this list so cynical? I >mean, healthy skepticism is one thing, closed minds are another. >Is most of the UFO community like this? >I read posts from April this year where people were complaining >about Steven Greer's personality and the way he went about >getting his contacts in Washington. Huh? Who the hell cares! If >he is successful getting the open hearings, will people on this >list still complain that he was mean and played "their" game to >do it? I don't understand this logic. I thought getting the >truth out in the open was the most important thing here. It >sounds like ego comes first with a lot of people. Joe, I was one of the people who got on Greers case last april. My reasons were based on several important points and issues -none of which- have ever been addressed or answered. 1. What you call an, "open hearing" is stretching the taffy a bit. To this day no-one knows who all of the "official" attendees were. (Mind you these are -our- elected officials!) nor does anyone have a copy of the minutes of these "open hearings." Dr Greer himself told us that we'd all, "have to wait for his -future book- to come out!" (That's a direct quote!) 2. Greer et al are prone to secrecy. Not what I look for in an individual who presumes to represent -me- before our elected officials in Washington. (Who -elected- Greer "the peoples representative? Not I. Did -you- get to vote Joe? Or did the good doctor using the substantial "grease" provided by the likes of old man Rockefeller -buy- his way into the situation? Ask Doc Greer about the Lear jet jaunts to Europe, and the limo's and all the other trappings. "Someone" is paying for all of that. I wonder what ever happened to accountability in a person who 'claims' to represent others. 3. Greer only represented himself and the interests of whoever backed him with all those goods and services. Name -one- other major UFO group or organization that he contacted for support or consensus. Yet before our elected officials he claimed to represent us all. 4. Dr.Greer makes wild and unsubstantiated claims such as, "98% of all abductions are performed by clandestine government groups!" OK fine, how do you know that doctor? No response. No sources, no corroboration, no proof. That's a mighty big claim to make without proof, documents or any substantiation. None of the above reasons are "ego based" Joe. They are legitimate questions and issues that deserve answers. None have been forthcoming. Nor do I expect any. I could go on Joe but all this is "old territory" we been dere and done dat already. Greer has no credibilty with me and great many others. You didn't go back far enough in the archive to see e-mails from Greer and his side kick mizz Adamiak spitting venom and making false accusations while at the same time trying to scam a lousy video out of some Scotsmen! You really ought to pick your "hero's" a little more carefully. This guy is not a shining example. >Keep it up Dr. Greer! That- has been the problem Joe. Over and out! John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 ACC's TCAP Diagram From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:48:00 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:48:00 -0500 Subject: ACC's TCAP Diagram From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) To: updates@globalserve.net Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:23:59 +0200 Subject: ACC's TCAP Diagram ACC has just put a visualization of the transcapacitor up on its website. Go to http://www.American-Computer.com/tcapviz.gif The introduction on the main Roswell page http://www.American-Computer.com/roswell.htm reads like this: "GREEN LIGHT GIVEN TO POST DIAGRAM !! In spite of questions raised by ACC about the TCAP's=BFlineage, THIS IS the amazing "1st Anywhere!" artists Microminiaturization Diagram=BFof the Transfer Capacitor, posted by ACC for the Interest of Public Speculation! 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 Re: UFO Research and Mapping Tool From: JJ Mercieca <mufor@maltanet.net> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:52:12 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:54:18 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Research and Mapping Tool >Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 00:48:50 -0500 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: UFO Research and Mapping Tool >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >No doubt about it....Hatch has a corner on the UFO data base >"market." You absolutely will not believe what his program can >do. Imagine being able to display 14,000 (or whatever the number Larry Hatch now has an e-mail for anyone wishing to contact him : larryhat@jps.net [and subscribed here today, thanks JJ - ebk] Regards, JJ Mercieca Malta UFO Research http://www.mufor.org/ Search for other documents from or mentioning: mufor | brumac |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 Clinton's Big Interest In UFOs From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 14:04:38 +0200 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:02:22 -0500 Subject: Clinton's Big Interest In UFOs Issued on the National Enquirer's site December 20. URL: http://www.nationalenquirer.com:80/mod03/mod03-story-509.html ******* PRESIDENT Clinton. What Clinton's Enquiring Mind Wants To Know . . . Bill Clinton wanted two big questions answered when he first took office as President: Who killed JFK? Are there UFOs? That's the intriguing revelation of Bill's old friend Webb Hubbell, who said that when Clinton appointed him associate attorney general, he told Hubbell to make those questions a top priority. "He was dead serious," declared Hubbell in his new book "Friends in High Places." But Hubbell himself didn't get satisfactory answers from his own investigations, so he never answered the questions for the President. "Clinton wanted to learn the truth about JFK's assassination because he has had a long love affair with Camelot," a Washington insider disclosed. "President Kennedy was his idol. When young Clinton shook hands with him in the Rose Garden at the White House, he felt as though his destiny was sealed. He told me his Presidential ambitions took form that afternoon. "And Clinton has always been interested in space and whether UFOs and space aliens are real."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 21 Heat, Cold, Wind, and Clouds From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 10:24:04 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:05:38 -0500 Subject: Heat, Cold, Wind, and Clouds Greetings List Member, In trying to update Rene Hardy's Trace/Effects Catalogues and other items we are still seeking: Radar material Heat cases Cold effects cases Cases where the object causes wind or things to blow around Cloud-Cigar or large object with satellite objects cases. I have already consulted the usual suspects: Jacques Vallee's Magonia Catalogue NICAP's "Strange Effects from UFOs" Richard Hall's "Uninvited Guests" NICAP's "The UFO Evidence" BUFORA's and CUFOS' Vehicle interferences catalogues UFOIC's article on "Cloud Cigars" Thnaks for the previous pointers and references. New ones are welcome. Best regards, -- Jan Aldrich Project 1947 http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 FOIA attorney Peter Gersten chats with visionary From: "Yvonne Hedenland" <VONNI_H@classic.msn.com> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 97 05:41:56 UT Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 00:39:57 -0500 Subject: FOIA attorney Peter Gersten chats with visionary On Monday, December 22nd at 6 p.m. PT, the Timeless Journeys chatroom's featured guest will be visionary artist AYA. Inspired by a spirit vision in 1985, AYA is creating a line of higher-dimensional mandala-templates, called Star-Wheels. These Star-Wheels are to be shared with the world as 'living holograms.' thus helping to synergise colors, sounds, sacred geometries and ceremonial dances into a celebration of 'who we are'. The Star-Wheels are a sequence of 144 telepathic information mandala-disks scaled-up (and down) to a frequency appropriate for human vibrational perception. These disks are encoded with specific keys to trigger brain activation/transduction. This chat is available at http://forums.msn.com/UFO The Briefing Room chat can be accessed by any IRC client. The chat server name is publicchat.msn.com and the room or channel name is #briefing.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 AP: Could a Transporter Really Work? From: RSchatte <RSchatte@aol.com> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:18:02 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 00:42:52 -0500 Subject: AP: Could a Transporter Really Work? From: AOL News <AOLNews@aol.com> Subject: Could a Transporter Really Work? Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:09:32 EST Could a Transporter Really Work? .c The Associated Press By M.R. KROPKO CLEVELAND (AP) - Physicist Lawrence Krauss is boldly going where scientists have rarely gone before - out of the cloistered halls of academia and into the alien world of mass media. His mission: to convince people that science is fun. His primary tool: ``Star Trek'' reruns. ``I like to convince people that science is exciting and worth talking about, just like a good movie,'' says Krauss, author of two books that have taken ideas from science fiction - particularly from the ``Star Trek'' TV series and films - and applied real scientific concepts to them. Krauss' gimmick is working. His first book, 1995's ``The Physics of Star Trek,'' sold 100,000 copies in hardback. He recently completed a cross-country tour promoting his latest release, ``Beyond Star Trek: Physics from Alien Invasions to the End of Time,'' published last month. With his success, the head of the physics department at Case Western Reserve University makes no apologies for tackling such weighty topics as: would a transporter really work? And, what's wrong with those explosions viewers hear when the U.S.S. Enterprise trades phaser blasts with an alien ship? ``In `Physics of Star Trek' and hopefully with this new one, I get to say, `Well look, here's how close or far it is from reality,''' Krauss said during an interview in his office, where life-size photo cutouts of the original TV show's Capt. Kirk and Mr. Spock guard his recliner. In many cases - but not all - science and science fiction just don't mesh. Case in point: The transporter on the starship Enterprise. The instrument got Krauss ruminating about science fiction concepts in the first place. Using a transporter, a crew member can dematerialize in one place and re- materialize in another. Krauss believes the device wouldn't work, now or in the future, because of the immense energy required to disassemble and reassemble a person atom by atom. He also touches in his first Trek book on blunders physicists can't help but notice, such as objects producing sound in space. There's no air in space and therefore no sound, so the thunderous explosions heard in ``Star Trek'' battle scenes on television and in the movies are inaccurate. But two other mainstays of the ``Star Trek'' universe - warp speed, which is faster than the speed of light, and time travel - are theoretically possible, he contends. ``Beyond Star Trek'' not only targets Trek science, it considers other scenarios, such as in the film ``Independence Day'' and the TV show ``The X- Files.'' He discusses real science implications of traditional science fiction subjects, such as time travel, UFOs and aliens, and clairvoyance. For instance, the huge alien spaceship over New York in ``Independence Day'' would flatten the city merely due to the air pressure involved to hold it up against the force of gravity, he says. ``It would be nice if science fiction on TV and other places always got it right,'' he says. But they don't, so Krauss accepts the fiction as entertainment. ``It's drama after all, and that's what keeps it going.'' While it's fun to find the flaws in science fiction, Krauss sees his role as much more than a professional nitpicker. He believes there's a void between scientists and the public, particularly since the death of Carl Sagan last December. Sagan won the Pulitzer Prize for general nonfiction in 1978 for ``The Dragons of Eden: Speculations on the Evolution of Human Intelligence'' and wide acclaim for his 13-part Public Broadcasting Service series ``Cosmos.'' Krauss dedicated his latest book to the popular Cornell University astronomer, who brought difficult concepts to the masses and made science, well, almost cool. ``Many scientists are hesitant to make that leap into popular culture because some sense that it might be demeaning,'' he said. ``But it hasn't been for me, and I think people are craving to know more about their world.'' Jack Munsee, professor of physics and astronomy at California State University, Long Beach, recently invited Krauss to be the first speaker in a popular science lecture series. He says the physics professor is good at delivering the message that hard science is as amazing as the dreams of fiction writers. ``I think too many scientists are worried about their own discipline and not worried about communicating it to a wider audience,'' Munsee said. The only thing Krauss fears now is that his audience will be disappointed that some of their favorite ``Star Trek'' gadgets would never work. Even if you can't change the laws of physics, as Enterprise engineer Scotty was fond of reminding Capt. Kirk in almost every episode, there's still plenty to learn about the universe. ``Physics constrains us, sure,'' Krauss says. ``But it constrains us by marvels.'' ``Beyond Star Trek'' is published by BasicBooks, a division of HarperCollins, in hardback. It costs $21. AP-NY-12-21-97 1205EST Copyright 1997 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without prior written authority of The Associated Press.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 The 'Alien Interview' From: troodon@netnitco.net [David Orr] Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:26:46 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 00:44:15 -0500 Subject: The 'Alien Interview' Does any one have anything to say about the "Area 51 Alien Interview" video advertised on Art Bell and the FX network? There may be two versions out. I know the ad on FX featured Steven Wiliams, X from the "X-Files". Bell doesn't mention him in it. Has anyone seen this? Good fortune, safe travels David Orr Push the button, Frank. ******************************** TRANSMISSION ENDED. ********************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 Re: Brasilia's Letter From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:41:49 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 00:45:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter > From: "A. J. Gevaerd" <gevaerd@gold.alanet.com.br> > To: "UFO UpDate" <updates@globalserve.net>, > Subject: Brasilia's Letter > Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 10:14:42 -0200 > +++ FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE +++ > The First World UFO Forum, Brasilia (Brazil), 07 to 14 December, > produced a letter that was delivered to some authorities invited > to represent Brazilian's Federal Government and the Ministry of > Aeronautics. This document was called Brasilia's Letter and > consisted of a respectfull request for our government to open a > few files about UFOs. Its contents is bellow. <snip> > Others decided not to sign: Stanton Friedman > (Canada), Mark Carlotto, Donald Ware, Peter Davenport (EUA) and > Alegandro Agostinelli (Argentina). Per Andersen (Denmark), left > earlier and let us know by e-mail that he wouldn't sign. > All these people had their oppinions and positions fully > respected. Although we understand why Mark Carlotto wouldn't > sign, since he works for the US Government, we simply cannot > understand why people as Stan Friedman, Don Ware and Davenport > wouldn't sign. By doing that, they simply refused to support a > legitimate request of the Brazilian ufologist to our government. <snip> > Respectfully, > A. J. Gevaerd, International Coordinator, World UFO Forum Hello Mr. Gevaerd and List: While the intent of the letter is admirable, it is easy to understand why some of those attending would not sign it. In fact, I am surprised to see that Bud Hopkins and David Jacobs signed it. The problem, as I see it, is "fact" number two: > The following facts > were presented in the presence of the Brazilian air force > minister: > 2. That the origin of such phenomenon, already identified as > extraterrestrial and whose visiting vehicles come from > civilizations technologically far advanced than our own, co-exist > with us in the Universe. Since when has this become a "fact"? I thought this was still a hypothesis and subject to differing opinions. I wouldn't have signed it either! John Koopmans
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 49 From: Masinaigan <Masinaigan@aol.com> [Joseph Trainor] Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:47:25 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 00:58:57 -0500 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 49 UFO ROUNDUP Volume 2, Number 49 December 21, 1997 Editor: Joseph Trainor PENNSYLVANIA REPORTS TWO NEW UFO SIGHTINGS On Tuesday, December 16, 1997, at around 8 p.m., Kevin L. spotted a large triangular UFO in the skies above his hometown of Allison Park, Pennsylvania (Pa.), on the William Flinn Highway (Route 8) just north of Pittsburgh. "My best description of color would be a dark classical gray," Kevin reported. "There were six large lights on the outer rim of the object. The two lights at the point of the (triangular) objet were red, while the others on the corners were white. The lights on the object were not very bright compared to what you see on aircraft--they looked more like a glow." "The object was in constant motion. It basically looked like a great granitic slab crossing the sky... My best guess was that the object was between 4,000 and 6,000 feet in the air." "I looked at it through a pair of binoculars that were 7 X 35mm and rated for a view area of 578 feet at 1,000 yards. The object took up about one-half of the view of the binoculars at full magnification." Kevin estimated that the UFO approached Allison Park from the east at about 70 degrees above the horizon. The object then "headed off in a northwesterly direction. This is an unusual route for air traffic. The Pittsburgh airport is 25 miles southwest of my house. When I first saw the object, it was already one-quarter of the way across (the sky) from the horizon. I could see it clearly for about one minute, after that it was too small to see any real details." As the UFO left, Kevin estimated that it was headed for the Franklin Park section of Pittsburgh and nearby Marshall township. (Email Interview) On December 2, 1997, at 11:33 p.m., Brian C. was driving west on Interstate Highway 76, the Schuylkill Expressway, just west of Philadelphia. As his car approached the West Manayunk exit (Belmont Avenue--J.T.), he noticed "a green light with my peripheral vision to the right of my car out the passenger side window. My initial reaction was that I thought it was a helicopter. Air traffic copters often fly up the (Schuykill) river for their reports. Almost as quickly, I realized how fast it was moving, because it shot straight up the river parallel to the highway and no more than 300 feet in altitude." "The whole incident took no more than five seconds," Brian added. "There was no tracer following, no smoke or trail of any kind...It could not have been a meteor because it was so low and flew straight across at a consistent height." (Many thanks to Tim Hagemeister of NACOMM for this report.) HORSE FOUND MUTILATED IN SOUTHERN COLORADO On Wednesday, December 17, 1997, at 10:30 a.m., rancher Ron Gardiner found one of his horses dead and mutilated on his property five miles (8 kilometers) west of Alamosa, Colorado (population 1,359). Alamosa is at the intersection of Colorado Highways 160 and 285 approximately 228 miles (375 kilometers) south of Denver. According to Christopher O'Brien, author of THE MYSTERIOUS VALLEY (St. Martin's Press, 1996), "The animal was still warm, and the rancher estimated that the animal was killed and mutilated sometime around dawn." "The horse was missing its penis and an 8-inch circular patch of hide behind the sheath, which was still intact. The rear end was neatly cored out in a slightly elongated circle to a depth of 8 or 9 inches. Eyes and tongue were intact." O'Brien visited the crime scene on Thursday, December 18, and secured three sets of incisional samples for forensic tests. "The animal was found lying on its right side at the bottom of a dry 7-foot-deep irrigation channel or canal. There was evidence of a struggle in broken chimisia bushes." However, other than the horse's own hoofprints, no other tracks of any kind were found at the scene. O'Brien and investigators of the Alamosa County Sheriff's Department found "a five-inch shallow gash" in the horse's neck. Also, "several drops which appear to be blood were found in snow about 60 feet away, over the fence and across the road." "The vast majority of San Luis Valley unusual animal deaths occur from last-frost to first-frost, during the warmer months," O'Brien said. "Rarely are these deaths reported during cold sub-zero nights. This may be a new wrinkle" in the ongoing mutilation mystery. (Many thanks to Chris O'Brien for this report.) GLOWING ORANGE FIREBALL STIRS UPPER MIDWEST On Friday, December 12, 1997, at about 8 p.m., a UFO described as "a glowing orange or red" sphere was seen over Eyota, Minnesota (population 1,448), a town on Interstate Highway 90 about 100 miles (160 kilometers) southeast of Minneapolis. Within 15 minutes, calls were received in police stations to the south in Wisconsin, Iowa and Missouri, reporting "a mysterious flash of light." Experts said the flash was "probably caused by a meteor." "It was a good-sized red ball," said Wylie Peterson of Colfax, Wisconsin (population 1,110), a town on Highway 170 about 20 miles (32 kilometers) northwest of Eau Claire and 261 miles (418 kilometers) northwest of Milwaukee. "It left a pretty good tail behind it. It was too big to be a flare." In Boyceville, Wisconsin (population 913), a town 20 miles (32 kilometers) west of Colfax, a private plane was reported overdue, and townspeople organized a search of the local woods. The search was suspended after they realized that the glow was "probably from the meteor" and not a crashing aircraft. Astronomers at the University of Minnesota and Drake University in Des Moines, Iowa said "the phenomenon was best explained by a single meteor entering the Earth's atmosphere." They noted that December 12 is the height of annual Geminid meteor shower. "We are constantly bombarded by fragments of old comets," said Lawrence Staunton, a physics and astronomy professor at Drake University. "They are mostly not seen." The orange fireball, however, was also seen in Cresco, Iowa (population 3,669) on Highway 9 about 228 miles (365 kilometers) northeast of Des Moines. (Many thanks to Steve Wilson Sr. and Errol Bruce- Knapp for these reports.) MUFON MEMBER SPOTS UFO IN NEW HAMPSHIRE On December 2, 1997, at 4:32 p.m., MUFON member Carolyn S. McNellis was driving south on New Hampshire Highway 12A, along the eastern bank of the Connecticut River when she spotted a UFO. "I spotted a fireball approximately half the size of a ping-pong ball at arm's length," Carolyn reported, "while driving south on Route 12A at the intersection of (Interstate) Highway 89 in West Lebanon, New Hampshire (N.H.). The road parallels the Connecticut River, which forms New Hampshire's boundary with Vermont. I saw the object in the southwestern sky. I concluded that because the sun was just going down and the object was picking up the golden orange of the setting sun." "That evening I questioned a local astronomer-friend and he had not heard of a meteor at that time, but December was supposed to be full of meteors. I witnessed (the) Hale-Bopp (comet) in the early spring, and this was MUCH, MUCH larger. It was half the size of a ping-pong ball. Hale-Bopp was the size of a head of a pin and needed binoculars to really be seen clearly." Ms. McNellis kept the UFO in view until she drove into a wooded area. "Seven minutes later, when I emerged from the woods, it was not to be seen." (See Filer's Files #50 for December 19, 1997. Many thanks to George A. Filer of MUFON for this report.) TRIANGULAR UFO SIGHTED IN WESTERN GEORGIA On December 5, 1997, at 8:40 p.m., a man living in Franklin, Georgia (population 876), located north of West Fork Lake on Highway 34, about 50 miles (80 kilometers) southwest of Atlanta, spotted a triangle-shaped UFO moving through the night sky. "The witness observed a formation of five white-to- amber-color lights," John Thompson, MUFON Georgia state director, reported. "A structured object would have made a triangle 50 feet (15 meters) in size. The UFO flew to the southeast at 2,000 feet altitude or lower." The witness observed the UFO for 20 seconds before losing sight of the object among the trees. "He said the UFO flew slowly and made no sound," Thompson added. "The lights did not flash, and he is assuming they were on a strucutred craft he did not see. The sky was clear, with little wind, and the UFO, according to him, was clearly close enough for him to have heard noise, if it had made any." (See Filer's Files #50 for December 19, 1997. Many thanks to George A. Filer and John Thompson for this report.) MYSTERY BOOM STARTLES PEOPLE IN THE OZARKS On Wednesday afternoon, December 17, 1997, a huge aerial explosion jolted the town of Rogersville, Missouri (population 995). According to news reports on KYTV (Cable Channel 12 in Florida--J.T.), the blast "rattled windows and blew open storm doors" in the small community on Missouri Highway 60 approximately 13 miles (21 kilometers) east of Springfield. According to KYTV, a U.S. Air Force spokesman denied that the mysterious blast was a sonic boom caused by low-flying supersonic jet interceptors. The cause of the "sky boom" is unknown. The mystery deepened when Cal W., a retired farmer living in Ozark, Missouri (population 4,243), a town on Highway 14 just seven miles (10 kilometers) south of Springfield, telephoned a radio talk show and told how he and his wife had seen "five or six high-altitude jets" flying what appeared to be a crisscrossing search pattern across the sky. Contrails were pefectly visible in the clear, cold upper air, he reported. GIANT METEOR LIGHTS UP THE SKY OVER GREENLAND On Tuesday, December 9, 1997, at 5:15 a.m., fishermen aboard the motor vessels Halton Trawl and Regina C. cruising off the eastern coast of Greenland heard a faint rumbling sound. Looking west, they spied "a giant flash split the darkness." The bright flash was also seen by fishermen aboard the Timmarut, a Danish motor trawler moored in Greenland's Julianehaab Bay. "The glow lit up the whole ice cap," Jens P., one of the fishermen, said. A parking lot surveillance camera in Nuuk, the Danish territory's capital on Greenland's west coast, "also recorded a brief illumination at that time." "According to the accounts, the flash was so huge that we have good reason to believe that this was a giant meteor," said Bjoern Franck Jorgenson of the Tycho Brahe Planetarium in Copenhagen, Denmark. "Jorgenson said it was probably a 'one-piece, solid meteor' that exploded. Most meteors travel at more than 7,400 miles per hour and explode or break up as they enter the atmosphere," the Reuters report noted. Scientists at the Niels Bohr Institute at the University of Copenhagen and the Tycho Brahe Planetarium estimated that the meteor struck the Greenland ice cap at a point 50 kilometers (30 miles) northeast of Narsarsuaq airport. The meteor "can be compared to the Kap York meteorite," which fell in "Melville Bay, Sassivik, south of Thule." "The flashes observed with the meteorite were so bright as to turn night into day at a distance of 100 kilometers and can be compared to the light of a nuclear explosion in the atmosphere. However, we stress that there is no reason to believe (the flashes) were other than natural causes." The institute reported a strange discrepancy in the incident, however. The "meteor" crashed no later than 5:15 a.m. Greenland time or 8:15 a.m. UTC time. Yet, six minutes later, at 8:21 a.m. UTC, a "seismic disturbance," attributed to the meteor, was recorded at Svalbard, Norway. Two minutes later, at 8:23 a.m. UTC, a second "shock wave" was recorded by the seismic detectors at Finmarca, Norway. The readings were announced by the Norwegian Seismic Agency at Kjeller. Similar readings were taken in Finland and Germany. Yet, according to the Institute, there were no readings of a "shock wave" or "seismic disturbance" at Danmarkshavn and Sonder Stromfjord, Greenland only 380 miles (608 kilometers) west of the meteor strike zone. Although grounded by a severe blizzard on Monday, December 11, planes of the Danish Air Force continued their search for the meteor crater. It has not yet been found. (Many thanks to the Geophysical Dept. at the Niels Bohr Institute and the Tycho Brahe Planetarium for the news release.) FOUR CHILDREN KILLED IN COLOMBIA METEOR STRIKE On Sunday evening, December 14, 1997, a fire broke out in a one-story house five kilometers (2 miles) from Pitalito in Huila province, Colombia, killing four sleeping children, all of whom were under the age of six. Responding to the call were units of the Pitalito municipal fire department, led by Captain Carlos Augusto Rojas. The children were home alone "in their ramshackle house when the fire broke out, and (Colombian) authorities initially suspected a candle or an electrical short circuit." Capt. Rojas told the Colombian show Radionet that, as his units were on their way to the fire, they had seen "fireballs raining down from the sky," adding, "We saw three distinct fireballs when we arrived" at the fire. Fire marshals examined the house after the blaze had been extinguished, noting that "the house had no electricity and other possible causes of the blaze--a candle or a gas lamp--had been ruled out." "But he said a hole measuring 25 centimeters (10 inches) in diameter was discovered in the zinc roof of the house, along with traces of a sulfur-like substance that was being studied in a local laboratory." "The hole in the roof had been pushed from the outside, Rojas said, adding that this exactly seemed to indicate that the children were the unwitting victims of a meteorite." Pitalito is in Colombia's Cordillera Oriental, approximately 633 kilometers (396 miles) southwest of Bogota. (See the newspaper El Espectador for December 16, 1997.) (Editor's Comment: The height of the Geminid meteor shower was December 12, two days before this incident. Maybe a chemistry major can help us out. At what temperature does zinc completely vaporize?) UKRAINIAN JETLINER GOES DOWN IN GREEK MOUNTAINS Greek Army mountain troops located the wreckage of an Aerosivit Yak-42 jetliner near Fotina, Greece on Saturday, December 20, following an intensive four-day search. Nearly 4,000 Greek soldiers searched the Mount Olympus area on foot, aided by a U.S. Navy P-3C Orion loaded with weather-piercing surveillance equipment, after the jetliner vanished on Wednesday, December 17, with 70 people aboard. "The original flight--an Aerosivit charter flight from Kiev, Ukraine, to Salonika aboard a Boeing 737--was scrapped when the plane developed engine trouble after takeoff and landed in Odessa, Ukraine, said Aerosivit president Leonid Pogrebynak." (See the Boston, Mass. Globe for December 19, 1997, "Search for jet slows in mountains of Greece.") "Pogrebynak said the passengers were transferred to the Yak-42 with a new crew that had never flown to Salonika, which is considered to be a challenging landing site." Tapes of "the pilot's last conversations with the (Salonika) tower, in which he indicated he was moving into landing position but was apparently heading into the mountains." The Yak-42's final approach into Salonika would have taken it in a northeasterly direction over Thermaikos Bay. At the point where the pilot said he was approaching the outer marker at Epanomi, he was actually heading northwest, up the Aliakamon Valley toward the snow-capped mountains on the Macedonian border, 320 kilometers (200 miles) northeast of Salonika. (Editor's Comment: Since the Yak-42 was flying IFR into Salonika, perhaps we should ask what happened to the aircraft's instruments during final approach.) STRANGE JETLINER CRASH CLAIMS 106 IN INDONESIA A SilkAir Boeing 737-300 crashed Friday, December 19, 1997, in a river on the island of Sumatra in Indonesia, killing all 106 people aboard. The twin-engine jet left Sukarno Hatta Airport in Jakarta around 3 p.m. Friday, for a short flight to Singapore. The estimated time of arrival was 6 p.m. "There were no distress signals. There were no adverse weather conditions. There was no mountainous terrain. It is obviously very puzzling," said Mah Bow Tan, Singapore's minister of communications. "The last radio contact at 5:15 p.m. gave no sign of trouble. Indonesians alerted SilkAir that the plane was missing about 40 minutes later." (See the Providence, R.I. Journal- Bulletin for December 20, 1997, "Singapore airliner crashes; 104 believed killed.") "SilkAir said the plane, a Boeing 737-300, was 10 months old and was the newest aircraft in the fleet." (See the Boston, Mass. Globe for December 20, 1997, "Over 100 feared dead in Indonesia jet crash.") The jetliner, SilkAir Flight M-185, crashed in the Musi River just outside the village of Parit, near Makarti Jaya, 56 kilometers (35 miles) north of Palembang. "Witnesses said the plane exploded twice in the air and again when it hit the water, a rescue official named Ono said in a telephone interview. There was no way to confirm the report." "A police officer said the plane crashed into the Musi River, which winds through a large (mangrove) swamp on its way to the sea. Most of the wreckage sank soon after impact." (See the Providence Journal-Bulletin for December 20, 1997, page 4.) (Editor's Comment: Shades of the May 1996 ValuJet crash in southern Florida!) from the UFO Files... 1909: AIRSHIP FLAP SPREADS INTO RHODE ISLAND This week we continue our look back at the 1909 airship flap in the USA's New England states. Here are a few actual newspaper stories from Rhode Island. "Charles J. Greene, who is head gardener at the estate of Colonel Robert H.I. Goddard at Potowomut Neck (now Goddard State Park just south of East Greenwich, Rhode Island--J.T.) noticed a moving light in the sky somewhat north of the Goddard place. He and other employees watched the light until it was out of sight to the southwest. According to Mr. Greene, the light was of rather a bluish tinge...Had the night been darker, with less interference from the moon and stars, Mr. Greene thinks it very likely that he could have satisfied himself that it was an airship. He judged that it crossed the west shore of the bay at a point above Old Warwick." (i.e. the Shawomet section of Warwick, R.I.--J.T.) On December 22, 1909, at 1:15 a.m., a very large UFO flew over the cities of Providence and Pawtucket in Rhode Island. Two witnesses were Mr. and Mrs. William S. Forsythe of 85 Evergreen Street, Providence, R.I. The Forsythes were putting up Christmas decorations "when Mrs. Forsythe looked out of the windows. Her attention was attracted by two red lights in the sky which were different from anything she had ever seen before. She called her husband to the window and both watched the strange spectacle. The lights appeared to be covering a course that was varied, now rather close to the earth and then soaring upward, but always making toward the south. They were able to make out an object which appeared to be in front of the lights...It was moving at such high speeds that they could get little more than a superficial view of the object, although what they saw was enough to satisfy them as to the identity of the contrivance. The Forsythes watched until the lights faded out in the haze on the southern horizon. When they arose in the morning, they promptly told all their friends of what they had seen." (See the Providence, R.I. Journal for December 22, 1909.) In Pawtucket, people "were alerted by a whirring noise in the heavens...and those who looked upward beheld a dark object which was easily discerned by the presence of two red lights. It moved gracefully away in a southerly direction, crossing the city over Woodlawn as if Bound for Newport." (See the Pawtucket, R.I. Times for December 21, 1909.) And in West Warwick, "The phenomenon which has been perplexing people from Worcester to Willimantic for the past several nights has at last been noticed by the Arctic Centre folks on Quidnick Street. Last evening (December 27, 1909--J.T.) here assembled a cluster of people, many armed with small telescopes, field and opera glasses and each contending as they took a peep at the bright and shining 'Venus' which appeared so brilliantly in the heavens, that the light moved to the westward very rapidly and the shining rays of its searchlight were clearly visible." "One lady, who was an interested spectator, claims to have seen the light go down and entirely disappear from the heavens. Other claim to have followed the course of the light for fully half an hour and that it changed to many different angles during that time." (See the Pawtuxet Valley Daily Times of West Warwick, R.I. for December 28, 1909.) FUN UFO WEBSITES: For more news on the UFO scene in Brazil, log in at Michael Wismierski's Brazilian UFO Report located at http://www.inbrapenet.com.br/bufor Kentucky MUFON has a great site. They're at http://www.angelfire.com/ky/ufohome/ring.html Need a place to go on Christmas? Why not drop in at our parent site, UFOINFO, at http://www. digiserve.com/ufoinfo? The year's best UFO stories can be found in back issues of UFO ROUNDUP. Visit our website at http://www.digiserve.com/ufoinfo/roundup/ To our readers and friends all over the Earth (and beyond), UFO ROUNDUP wishes you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! We'll be back next Sunday with more saucer news--and the inevitable reports of red, sleigh-shaped UFOs--from "the paper that goes home--UFO ROUNDUP." Enjoy your holiday season! UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1997 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from UFO ROUNDUP on their websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:07:17 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:01:51 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 06:44:47 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >>Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:57:43 +0100 (MET) >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >>Steven and list, >>All so called errors in Corso's book must be attributed to >>Birnes and not to Corso, as Corso and Birnes themselves >>have stated and as I predicted around July when this >>issue came up here first. I didn't have to ask either of >>them as it was obvious from the beginning. >Why "must" we believe that all the errors in the book have to be >attributed to Birnes? Is there some documentary evidence to >support that contention, or do we simply "have" to believe that >it's true out of faith. >Yes, Corso has indicated that he never actually read the final >text before it went to print, and claims that Birnes included a >lot of material that he had not included in his "notes". But >that is only a claim unless Corso provides the actual notes sent >to Birnes and we can make up our own minds as to what was later >added to complete the book. As I said, I base it on the writers' claims and my own experience in journalism. As I said here many times before, stop complaining and ask for these notes. >>All this nonsense about Corso's so called errors is >>entirely irrelevant and the product of minds that make a >>mountain out of every molehill while so far ACC as well >>as Kenny Young have come with corroberative information. >ACC has announced nothing to substantiate the technological >claims of Corso. Again, you seem to have missed it. Shulman found out when the transfer of technology to the Pentagon happened. > ACCs claim deals with technology developed some >12 years before Corso's involvement. There has been no claims >made by either ACC or Corso that they were part of the same >program, You and I don't have to part of the same program to find corroberating evidence. Again, irrelevant. >and the net effect of this assumption is that you end up >using one unsubstantiated claim to back up another >unsubstantiated claim. Jack has found the tech transfer to the Pentagon, Corso gives 5 explicit references to the transistor, and in my previous posts I even forgot that Jack has found in the notebook a drawing of a laser! If you have read Corso's book, he says that the laser seeding was done by the military and he played a part in it. >>2. Amateur Ufologists will accuse more people to be part of a >>giant conspiracy to sell Corso's book and to help ACC with their >>commercial ploy. If Ed Wang, FUFOR and the US Air Force are >>already improving ACC's Christmas sales and bottom line by >>revealing that the meeting at Princeton took place where the USAF >>acknowledged the alien origin of transistor technology, then next >>in line will be the CIA, the NSA and Clinton's new dog. >I've read all of the ACC material on the "net", and you must have >some document that I've failed to notice. May I ask what you >perceive FUFOR's involvement to be in this matter? Beyond that, >can you explain where you get the impression that the USAF has >"acknowledged" any of ACCs claims? FUFOR has arranged witnesses for the meeting with ACC and the USAF near Princeton University. USAF confirmed at this meeting their estimate that the transistor technology was from a military project on the basis of the provided evidence, notes and witnesses. FUFOR confirms that the meeting took place. >To be >honest, I am more sympathetic to the claims made by ACC and Corso >than this post would seem to indicate. I also don't care if ACC >wants to use this issue to increase its sales, which is all a >part of our capitalistic economy. But it's probably a mistake to >claim that we're about to win the war when we're not even sure >that these new "recruits" have any ammunition for their weopens >(sorry, bad analogy....but it's early in the morning). >Steve Yes, bad analogy. Not because of the 'war' talk, because it certainly seems like that from time to time. Bad analogy because Corso and Shulman are not exactly part of the UFO community and recruits is about the last thing I would call them. This is simply one more example of the arrogance that the UFO community is capable of. Corso and Shulman recruits, give me a break! Corso has been there, Ufologists are groping. Jack is in this for his own curiosity, his love of technology, his hope that he can enlighten the public and for the money. This is an unbeatable combination of interests. Furthermore, the man has a combination of brains and balls that is truly unique and seems to have the money he needs to take some problems out of the way. He seems to have hired an entire detective agency to find the UFOs. All this bickering about ACC providing no evidence is just the talk of people who prefer to keep groping in the dark. ACC has provided evidence, though not to you. Shulman has even invited scrutiny of his transcapacitor on Sightings, but you don't seem to have heard it. He likes to talk to knowledgeable engineers about this thing, but most of the Ufological community doesn't qualify. When the ACC thing came up here first, Jack responded to an allegation by someone who didn't know what the Internet Link Exchange was. This person apparently thought that it was a system that transfers money to the owner of the website just by the click of a button. Jack responded then, but hasn't done that since. No wonder, if the Ufological community has One Big Talent it is to produce an infinite amount of bogus to discredit a case. I still don't understand how Jack has figured out the UFO community so fast. It simply confirms my earlier suspicion that the man is a goddamn genius! What he did ask us was to cooperate with him, saying 'You have to grab the ball and run with it'. Well, nobody's done that. You get something when you give something. In his mind, we don't give anything so we don't get anything. Since then, he doesn't seem to bother about all the negativity on lists such as these, and rightly so. To him, these lists are a sideshow, and as long as the negativity, the irrelevance, the flaws of logic and the armchair analyses keep polluting these lists, they remain that. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 Re: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates} Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 16:59:57 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:03:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... > Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 03:05:57 -0500 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... > >From: Ufojoe1 <Ufojoe1@aol.com> [Joe Murgia] > >Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:18:07 EST > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... > >>> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 07:14:07 +0100 (MET) > >>> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >>> From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> > >>> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to <snip>. > >Why are most of the people who write on this list so cynical? I > >mean, healthy skepticism is one thing, closed minds are another. > >Is most of the UFO community like this? Being a good investigator searching for the truth does not mean jumping on every guy and his claims bandwagon with your eyes closed because it happens to tickle your ears and or your belief system. Not to mention that fact that people have made/built such a career about defending various UFO personalities and or their claims, that if the claims are in fact proven false then those people's credibility is on the line. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 Re: ACC's TCAP Diagram From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gaates] Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:03:03 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:04:55 -0500 Subject: Re: ACC's TCAP Diagram > From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:23:59 +0200 > Subject: ACC's TCAP Diagram > ACC has just put a visualization of the transcapacitor up on its > website. Go to > http://www.American-Computer.com/tcapviz.gif > The introduction on the main Roswell page > http://www.American-Computer.com/roswell.htm > reads like this: > "GREEN LIGHT GIVEN TO POST DIAGRAM !! In spite of questions raised by > ACC about the TCAP's=BFlineage, THIS IS the amazing "1st Anywhere!" > artists Microminiaturization Diagram=BFof the Transfer Capacitor, posted > by ACC for the Interest of Public Speculatio So now we have "artists" making diagrams of this alleged artifact "for the Interest of Public Speculation.." At least they aren't claiming that "aliens drew this blah blah.." I speculate on the origin of the diagram!! Cheers, Robert Search for other documents from or mentioning: rgates8254 |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 Re: Shulman Exposes Ultra-Secret Military ET From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates] Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:22:11 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:07:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Shulman Exposes Ultra-Secret Military ET > From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:36:21 +0200 > Subject: Fwd: Shulman Exposes Ultra-Secret Military ET Organization > Received via "alt.alien.visitors" December 20 at 12.19 local time (GMT > + 1 hour). > ******* > Date: 20 Dec 1997 11:06:13 GMT > From: "ufotruth@ix.netcom.com" < ufotruth@ix.netcom.com> > Subject: JACK SHULMAN EXPOSES TOP SECRET ET ORGANIZATION! > Message-ID: <01bcc676$88375720$2908b8cd@default> > Jack Shulman Exposes Hidden Ultra-Secret ET Military Organization <snip> > On the show, Shulman related an amazing string of events which > culminated when he and other ACC personnel, along with > Investigator/Journalist Bob Wolf, had what amounted to a > confrontation with Air Force personnel at the Pentagon. During > the course of what was described as a rather heated encounter, > Air Force personnel are said to have disclosed accidentally, or > otherwise, the existence of this invisible military organization > within the Department of Defense THAT NO ONE HAS EVER HEARD OF > BEFORE. So if we understand this right, Schulman and Bob "the conduit when Ed Wang isn't around" Wolf were having some sort of confrontation with AF personnel "at the Pentagon" in which it is alleged that some military officials accidently vomited up this organizations name. Ten to 1 odds when the gulliable fools start filing FOIA requests for information "no such organization will exist." > Shulman said it is called the Extraterrestrial Space Command > Directorate, or simply "E2SCD." As stated, this military group, > branch, or operational unit, officially DOES NOT EXIST in any > readily locatable government or military archive or database. > Jack stated the unit is probably referred to simply as "E2" by > those in it or those who have a need to know of its existence. This is mighty convient fact. For those truth seekers who attempt to verify its existance they say up front that its unverifiable. SO AND AGAIN all we have is Schulman making pronouncements on a show. > Further, Jack explained to Jeff how when he and his associates > were first going through the now famous 'laboratory notebook', > which apparently reveals the true origin of the transistor > (recovered ET technology), they observed several "E2" notations Yet nobody other then Schulman & cronies seems to have *actually* seen this incredible notebook that apparently is one of the greatest secrets to ever be seen by man. Everybody remember the Hitler diarys that fooled the experts for awhile. Not to mention Mark Hoffman, who fooled many experts for along time. Ah, not to mention the infamous Kennedy papers that supposedly "experts and investigators" prounounced authentic, then to find out that none of the experts and investigators were even capable of making any kind of judgement. My point is that before we launch into notebook heaven, it should be subject to examination. > in the text. Not having any idea what "E2" stood for at the time, > Jack and his team of scientists assumed "E2" to be some type of > engineering symbol or code. Today's revelation may have solved > that mystery and could confirm the existence of this ultra secret > elite military UFO organization far at least as long as 50 years > ago. > Shulman said a thorough search of the Library of Congress and all > immediately available government data bases revealed NO DATA on > the "Extraterrestrial Electronics Space Directorate", or "E2SCD." Told you, another MJ-12 black hole. Like MJ-12 this E2SCD willnot quite be proven true, but because Shulman said it on national radio, its the god's gospel truth to never be doubted by the Schulman/Wolf/Wang defenders and their cronies. > In a related issue, Shulman said it now appears the orginal top > secret fax that American Computer mysteriously received several > months ago is now believed by Jack Shulman, at least, to have > originated from a satellite which may well belong to, and be > operated by, the secret E2 organization. How did Schulman come to that conclusion? Search for other documents from or mentioning: rgates8254 |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Don Ledger <dledger@istar.ca> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 22:46:52 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:21:56 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:57:33 -0800 > From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > > Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:22:38 +0100 > > From: Don Ledger <dledger@istar.ca> > > To: updates@globalserve.net > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > <snip> > > Bob if you have publishers who are screwing you then you should > > pass them on as a warning to the rest of us. They won't last long > > in the business, once they become known. You don't have to put > > them on the list but could issue them privately to those that are > > interested, such as myself...and I'm sure many others. > > Don Ledger > Don, why not put them on the list? I as a reader I would also like to > boycott those publishers that screw the authors. > John Koopmans Hey, if it was happening to me John, I'd be nailing their asses to the wall, but this is Bobs's call. Anybody who writes or has written books is aware of the amount of work that goes into it. It is sinful that certain publishers can get away with ripping off an author. It's stealing pure and simple. But your right John. Rolling over the rocks and exposing unscrupulous publishers helps everyone, writers,readers and even other publishers. The more of us who are informed, the more who can fink on the bastards. Don Ledger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 Re: ACC's TCAP Diagram From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 18:03:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:20:08 -0500 Subject: Re: ACC's TCAP Diagram >From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:23:59 +0200 >Subject: ACC's TCAP Diagram >ACC has just put a visualization of the transcapacitor up on its >website. Go to >http://www.American-Computer.com/tcapviz.gif >The introduction on the main Roswell page >http://www.American-Computer.com/roswell.htm >reads like this: >"GREEN LIGHT GIVEN TO POST DIAGRAM !! In spite of questions raised by >ACC about the TCAP's=BFlineage, THIS IS the amazing "1st Anywhere!" >artists Microminiaturization Diagram=BFof the Transfer Capacitor, posted >by ACC for the Interest of Public Speculation! >(originally posted 12/21/1997)" =BF Stig, So what is this drawing supposed to tell us??????? Without labels for the parts it is pretty meaningless. It is right pretty, though! Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 Re: UFO Research and Mapping Tool From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 18:12:29 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:23:23 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Research and Mapping Tool > From: JJ Mercieca <mufor@maltanet.net> > Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:52:12 +0100 > Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:54:18 -0500 > Subject: Re: UFO Research and Mapping Tool > >Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 00:48:50 -0500 > >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> > >Subject: UFO UpDate: UFO Research and Mapping Tool > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >No doubt about it....Hatch has a corner on the UFO data base > >"market." You absolutely will not believe what his program can > >do. Imagine being able to display 14,000 (or whatever the number > Larry Hatch now has an e-mail for anyone wishing to contact him : > larryhat@jps.net [and subscribed here today, thanks JJ - ebk] I gave Larry the URL for Updates and invited him to the list the other day when I posted the original information on the mapping tool. He should be joining us for discussion and insight shortly. Jared. Search for other documents from or mentioning: jared | mufor | brumac |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 Re: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... From: Ufojoe1 <Ufojoe1@aol.com> [Joe Murgia] Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:09:35 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:06:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... >Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 03:05:57 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... >>I read posts from April this year where people were complaining ?>about Steven Greer's personality and the way he went about >>getting his contacts in Washington. Huh? Who the hell cares! If >>he is successful getting the open hearings, will people on this >>list still complain that he was mean and played "their" game to >>do it? I don't understand this logic. I thought getting the >>truth out in the open was the most important thing here. It >>sounds like ego comes first with a lot of people. >Joe, I was one of the people who got on Greers case last april. >My reasons were based on several important points and issues >-none of which- have ever been addressed or answered. >1. What you call an, "open hearing" is stretching the taffy a >bit. To this day no-one knows who all of the "official" attendees >were. (Mind you these are -our- elected officials!) nor does >anyone have a copy of the minutes of these "open hearings." Dr >Greer himself told us that we'd all, "have to wait for his >-future book- to come out!" (That's a direct quote!) The meeting in April was a briefing not hearing. If I wrote hearing I apologize. I agree that the briefing should have been open to all but don't blame Greer. Blame the people who attended. They probably insisted on secrecy so they wouldn't be labeled UFO nuts. The Congressman (Jim Davis (D), Tampa) that represents me agrees that all of this should be out in the open. I hope he pursues this matter like he said he would. >2. Greer et al are prone to secrecy. Not what I look for in an >individual who presumes to represent -me- before our elected >officials in Washington. (Who -elected- Greer "the peoples >representative? Not I. Did -you- get to vote Joe? Actually, Greer's name was at the very bottom of the voting ballot at the last election I attended. I did my duty and cast my vote for him. Just kidding, sorry. Greer can say whatever he wants as long as he gets open hearings. He can call me names for all I care. I just want open hearings. Who else has made the headway that he has? I know you have to take the word of Greer and others that this briefing actually took place the way he said it did but there are others who are with him (Mitchell) who I think are credible and I don't think they would alow Greer to just make stuff up about what happened in April. >Or did the good >doctor using the substantial "grease" provided by the likes of >old man Rockefeller -buy- his way into the situation? Ask Doc >Greer about the Lear jet jaunts to Europe, and the limo's and all >the other trappings. "Someone" is paying for all of that. I >wonder what ever happened to accountability in a person who >'claims' to represent others. I don't care how he got into the situation as long as he didn't hurt anybody in the process. He's doing what it takes to get the job done. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that don't like his style but that's going to happen with anybody. If "somebody" is paying for the Lear jets and limos than I hope that "somebody" keeps it up until Greer reaches the goal of open hearings. Why do they have to be accountable to anybody if it's private money? I know Greer is playing the game that has to be played to get results. >3. Greer only represented himself and the interests of whoever >backed him with all those goods and services. Name -one- other >major UFO group or organization that he contacted for support or >consensus. Yet before our elected officials he claimed to >represent us all. Like I said, he's getting results so I don't care if he asks for help or not. 4. Dr.Greer makes wild and unsubstantiated claims such as, "98% of all abductions are performed by clandestine government groups!" OK fine, how do you know that doctor? No response. No sources, no corroboration, no proof. That's a mighty big claim to make without proof, documents or any substantiation. I agree with you on that point. Don't know where he gets his facts. Although I think when he says these things he states that it's his opinion. Does he ever come out and say that he KNOWS 100% that 98% of abuctions are by those clandestine groups or does he say that this is what he BELIEVES? If he says he knows 100% than I would like to see his data. If he says he believes than let him have his opinion. I don't think he brings these topics up when he briefs the Congressmen and women. Obviously I don't know, since I wasn't there, but I would think he would kept it simple so the Congressmen ( & Pentagon officials & aides to the Presidents if you believe Greer) and women could start off with information that is easier" to digest like "simple" UFOs. >None of the above reasons are "ego based" Joe. They are >legitimate questions and issues that deserve answers. None have >been forthcoming. Nor do I expect any. Oh well, I guess I have more hope than most. It won't ruin my day if Greer's not the one who helps attain open hearings. I don't care who does it as long as it''s done. >I could go on Joe but all this is "old territory" we been dere >and done dat already. Greer has no credibilty with me and great >many others. You didn't go back far enough in the archive to see >e-mails from Greer and his side kick mizz Adamiak spitting venom >and making false accusations while at the same time trying to >scam a lousy video out of some Scotsmen! You really ought to pick >your "hero's" a little more carefully. This guy is not a shining >example. Hero, who said hero? I don't have to like Greer to applaud his results. I guess time will tell if he is making headway or not. I know that my local Congressman is deciding what to do with Greer's information as I write these words. This may be old territory for most but I think it is still one of the most important things going on in Ufology today. I will go back and read the archive. In the meantime, I respect everybody's opinion but still believe that Greer will be in the spotlight until this thing breaks open. Just my opinion. >>Keep it up Dr. Greer! >That- has been the problem Joe. >Over and out! >John Velez John, who else has presented such topics to people on Capitol Hill? I would like to read about them too. I'm sure there are others. Let me know. Joe Murgia
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 Re: The 'Alien Interview' From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 06:23:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:33:01 -0500 Subject: Re: The 'Alien Interview' >From: troodon@netnitco.net [David Orr] >Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:26:46 -0600 >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: The "Alien Interview" >Does any one have anything to say about the "Area 51 Alien Interview" video >advertised on Art Bell and the FX network? There may be two versions out. I >know the ad on FX featured Steven Wiliams, X from the "X-Files". Bell >doesn't mention him in it. Has anyone seen this? >Good fortune, safe travels >David Orr Rocket Productions (or Rocket Pictures) apparently owns the rights to this footage, and their "documentary" features Williams as the narrator. I would doubt that they would license the "Alien Interview" to any other group, since they apparently want to make as much from this as they can. It may be that Bell simply didn't recognize him, as it took me quite a while to recall where I'd seen him before. With all the hype, my guess is that most aren't paying too much attention to the narrator. If a good quality video tape of the footage can be obtained it would be interesting to see a good analysis of it, but one of the FX experts on the video concluded that it was most definitely a puppet, and another indicated that while the head appeared to move in a manner that would be difficult to duplicate, he felt that he could have done a better job. Bob Dean, whose comments had been featured on Strange Universe, apparently believes that it's the real thing and was almost brought to tears. Sean David Morton, who has been promoting this video for a number of months, also appears to believe that it's real. This video is more than an hour long, and contains all of the 90 second (approx.) segment. This means that there is a lot of background material and statements by "experts", and it is mentioned several times that this video is "much more realistic than the Alien Autopsy", which they state is an obvious fake. My impression is that this is simply a ploy to make a few bucks, which can be said about much of this genre these days. If you know someone who has a copy, go over and watch it. But having seen it, I don't feel the need to permanently add it to my collection. Steve Kaeser
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:00:57 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:35:15 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:07:17 +0100 (MET) > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 06:44:47 -0500 > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >>Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:57:43 +0100 (MET) > >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >>From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> > >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso [snip] > >>2. Amateur Ufologists will accuse more people to be part of a > >>giant conspiracy to sell Corso's book and to help ACC with their > >>commercial ploy. If Ed Wang, FUFOR and the US Air Force are > >>already improving ACC's Christmas sales and bottom line by > >>revealing that the meeting at Princeton took place where the USAF > >>acknowledged the alien origin of transistor technology, then next > >>in line will be the CIA, the NSA and Clinton's new dog. > >I've read all of the ACC material on the "net", and you must have > >some document that I've failed to notice. May I ask what you > >perceive FUFOR's involvement to be in this matter? Beyond that, > >can you explain where you get the impression that the USAF has > >"acknowledged" any of ACCs claims? > FUFOR has arranged witnesses for the meeting with ACC and the > USAF near Princeton University. > USAF confirmed at this meeting their estimate that the transistor > technology was from a military project on the basis of the > provided evidence, notes and witnesses. FUFOR confirms that the > meeting took place. [snip] > __________________________________________ > / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ > Henny van der Pluijm > hvdp@worldonline.nl > > Technology Pages > http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp Henry, if by FUFOR you mean Funny UFO Rogues than maybe the above happened. If you are mean the Fund for UFO Research, I have just talked to Richard Hall, the current Chairman, and Don Berliner, the incoming Chairman. They completely deny an affiliation, meeting or contact with you, ACC, Ed Wang or any contact with the Air Force on this subject. Hall said you should contact him at 301-779-8683. He will want a full retraction from you. My question to you is: Who gave you this information? Who did you check with to see if it was true? Certainly not anyone from FUFOR. Seems to me you ought to be more careful in future! Jan Aldrich
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 Re: AP: Could a Transporter Really Work? From: ufo1@juno.com [Jack Sargeant] Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:35:26 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:35:45 -0500 Subject: Re: AP: Could a Transporter Really Work? Hello list, and Rebecca too. (Its been a long time, Rebecca.) >From: AOL News <AOLNews@aol.com> >Subject: Could a Transporter Really Work? >Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:09:32 EST >Could a Transporter Really Work? >.c The Associated Press > By M.R. KROPKO >CLEVELAND (AP) - Physicist Lawrence Krauss is boldly going where >scientists have rarely gone before - out of the cloistered halls >of academia and into the alien world of mass media. >His mission: to convince people that science is fun. >His primary tool: ``Star Trek'' reruns. >``I like to convince people that science is exciting and worth >talking about, just like a good movie,'' says Krauss, author of >two books that have taken ideas from science fiction - >particularly from the ``Star Trek'' TV series and films - and >applied real scientific concepts to them. >Krauss' gimmick is working. >His first book, 1995's ``The Physics of Star Trek,'' sold 100,000 >copies in hardback. He recently completed a cross-country tour >promoting his latest release, ``Beyond Star Trek: Physics from >Alien Invasions to the End of Time,'' published last month. >With his success, the head of the physics department at Case >Western Reserve University makes no apologies for tackling such >weighty topics as: would a transporter really work? And, what's >wrong with those explosions viewers hear when the U.S.S. >Enterprise trades phaser blasts with an alien ship? >``In `Physics of Star Trek' and hopefully with this new one, I >get to say, `Well look, here's how close or far it is from >reality,''' Krauss said during an interview in his office, where >life-size photo cutouts of the original TV show's Capt. Kirk and >Mr. Spock guard his recliner. >In many cases - but not all - science and science fiction just >don't mesh. >Case in point: The transporter on the starship Enterprise. The >instrument got Krauss ruminating about science fiction concepts >in the first place. >Using a transporter, a crew member can dematerialize in one place >and re- materialize in another. Krauss believes the device >wouldn't work, now or in the future, because of the immense >energy required to disassemble and reassemble a person atom by >atom. Agreed, but this hasn't deterred science from trying. Some minor success at transporting photons has already been claimed, as seen on CNN and other news services. >He also touches in his first Trek book on blunders physicists >can't help but notice, such as objects producing sound in space. >There's no air in space and therefore no sound, so the thunderous >explosions heard in ``Star Trek'' battle scenes on television and >in the movies are inaccurate. This is both true and false at the same time. It is true that the human ear would not detect the sound due to the lack of air to carry the sound waves. ...But, the explosions are easily detect- able with sensors. A small radio telescope would suffice. The energy picked up by sensors could then be re-converted into visual and audio waves. >But two other mainstays of the ``Star Trek'' universe - warp >speed, which is faster than the speed of light, and time travel - >are theoretically possible, he contends. Maybe if a worm hole was conveniently placed where it could be accessed, the above "theory" could be tested. >``Beyond Star Trek'' not only targets Trek science, it considers >other scenarios, such as in the film ``Independence Day'' and the >TV show ``The X- Files.'' He discusses real science implications >of traditional science fiction subjects, such as time travel, >UFOs and aliens, and clairvoyance. Wow! He really covers all the bases, doesn't he? ...A little something for everybody, eh? >For instance, the huge alien spaceship over New York in >``Independence Day'' would flatten the city merely due to the air >pressure involved to hold it up against the force of gravity, he >says. I don't agree. A dirigible of this size could be built using today's technology. Since it would be lighter than air, it would overcome the force of gravity, harming nobody underneath. Think about how a dirigible is constructed before challenging this statement. It is just a bunch of aluminum girders with bags of gas tied in place, and then covered with a thin skin of aluminized fabric. The "lighter than air craft" could be built to any size or shape....And who's to say what UFOs are constructed of? The same principle could be applied if the "skin" was light enough. Some UFOs are described as having a spinning section. This gyro- scopic effect would offer great stability to any flying device. >``It would be nice if science fiction on TV and other places >always got it right,'' he says. >But they don't, so Krauss accepts the fiction as entertainment. >``It's drama after all, and that's what keeps it going.'' >While it's fun to find the flaws in science fiction, Krauss sees >his role as much more than a professional nitpicker. >He believes there's a void between scientists and the public, >particularly since the death of Carl Sagan last December. >Sagan won the Pulitzer Prize for general nonfiction in 1978 for >``The Dragons of Eden: Speculations on the Evolution of Human >Intelligence'' and wide acclaim for his 13-part Public >Broadcasting Service series ``Cosmos.'' Not to mention the film he wrote the story to that is currently in the theatres. CONTACT, or something like that? (I may need to be corrected on this.) >Krauss dedicated his latest book to the popular Cornell >University astronomer, who brought difficult concepts to the >masses and made science, well, almost cool. >``Many scientists are hesitant to make that leap into popular >culture because some sense that it might be demeaning,'' he said. >``But it hasn't been for me, and I think people are craving to >know more about their world.'' >Jack Munsee, professor of physics and astronomy at California >State University, Long Beach, recently invited Krauss to be the >first speaker in a popular science lecture series. He says the >physics professor is good at delivering the message that hard >science is as amazing as the dreams of fiction writers. >``I think too many scientists are worried about their own >discipline and not worried about communicating it to a wider >audience,'' Munsee said. >The only thing Krauss fears now is that his audience will be >disappointed that some of their favorite ``Star Trek'' gadgets >would never work. >Even if you can't change the laws of physics, as Enterprise >engineer Scotty was fond of reminding Capt. Kirk in almost every >episode, there's still plenty to learn about the universe. >``Physics constrains us, sure,'' Krauss says. ``But it constrains >us by marvels.'' >``Beyond Star Trek'' is published by BasicBooks, a division of >HarperCollins, in hardback. It costs $21. >AP-NY-12-21-97 1205EST >Copyright 1997 The Associated Press. The information contained >in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten >or otherwise distributed without prior written authority of The >Associated Press. So, go sue EBK, and when yer finished with him, you can come after my S.S. Check. Jack Sargeant, Fido UFO moderator.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 Re: AP: Could a Transporter Really Work? From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:20:29 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:50:56 -0500 Subject: Re: AP: Could a Transporter Really Work? >From: RSchatte <RSchatte@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:18:02 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Fwd: Could a Transporter Really Work? >Could a Transporter Really Work? >Case in point: The transporter on the starship Enterprise. The >instrument got Krauss ruminating about science fiction concepts >in the first place. >Using a transporter, a crew member can dematerialize in one place >and re- materialize in another. Krauss believes the device >wouldn't work, now or in the future, because of the immense >energy required to disassemble and reassemble a person atom by >atom. This is the classic mistake scientists always make. I can agree with Krauss that a transporter wouldn't work now (for us humans anyway), but to say that it would never work in the future is just plain stupid. Physics is changing and expanding rapidly today, and just because something is impossible today does not mean that it may not be possible, perhaps even easy, in the future. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 Re: Brasilia's Letter From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:23:49 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:03:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter >Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:41:49 -0800 >From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Brasilia's Letter >Hello Mr. Gevaerd and List: >While the intent of the letter is admirable, it is easy to understand >why some of those attending would not sign it. In fact, I am surprised >to see that Bud Hopkins and David Jacobs signed it. The problem, as I >see it, is "fact" number two: >> The following facts >> were presented in the presence of the Brazilian air force >> minister: >> 2. That the origin of such phenomenon, already identified as >> extraterrestrial and whose visiting vehicles come from >> civilizations technologically far advanced than our own, co-exist >> with us in the Universe. >Since when has this become a "fact"? I thought this was still a >hypothesis and subject to differing opinions. >I wouldn't have signed it either! >John Koopmans John, Right on! If asked, I would not have signed it either. Much as I like and respect my friend A.J., I think he is way off base on endorsing this document. I see no facts in this document, only speculations based on very limited evidence. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:05:35 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:15:10 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:00:57 -0800 >From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:07:17 +0100 (MET) >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >> >I've read all of the ACC material on the "net", and you must have >> >some document that I've failed to notice. May I ask what you >> >perceive FUFOR's involvement to be in this matter? Beyond that, >> >can you explain where you get the impression that the USAF has >> >"acknowledged" any of ACCs claims? >> FUFOR has arranged witnesses for the meeting with ACC and the >> USAF near Princeton University. >> USAF confirmed at this meeting their estimate that the transistor >> technology was from a military project on the basis of the >> provided evidence, notes and witnesses. FUFOR confirms that the >> meeting took place. >[snip] Jan Aldrich said: >Henry, if by FUFOR you mean Funny UFO Rogues than maybe the above >happened. If you are mean the Fund for UFO Research, I have just >talked to Richard Hall, the current Chairman, and Don Berliner, >the incoming Chairman. They completely deny an affiliation, >meeting or contact with you, ACC, Ed Wang or any contact with the >Air Force on this subject. >Hall said you should contact him at 301-779-8683. He will want >a full retraction from you. >My question to you is: Who gave you this information? Who did >you check with to see if it was true? Certainly not anyone from >FUFOR. Seems to me you ought to be more careful in future! >Jan Aldrich Jan, The information came from my memory. I remembered Jared Anderson saying as much on this list. However, my memory was not entirely accurate, because Jared had said he had this information from one member of the FUFOR board. Full post by Jared dug up from the archives is included below my message. So, if 'one member of the FUFOR board' is not entitled to release such statements, then that is news to me. On second thought, being familiar with the UFO community, the confusion does not surprise me. So I retract that: 'FUFOR acknowledged that the meeting took place' and you can convey that to Richard Hall. But I maintain that 'Jared Anderson says he knows a FUFOR board member who can confirm the meeting took place'. To clear this matter up, I just had a lengthy conversation with Jack Shulman before I read your post, Jan, and he says that he does not remember anybody from FUFOR. Having spent a goddamn fortune on this international call - the man is virtually uninterruptable - I will not call Richard Hall. I hope you understand. Jack had other things to say as well and I hope to get to that later. About giving evidence that the meeting took place, he says he doesn't care and that he is not in the business of dealing with e-mail lists anyway. His hope is to force the US Air Force to change their stance on the release of data about the UFO phenomenon by lawsuit or by other means. He expects to be treated as a liar and a nut. For now, I am interested in who Jared Anderson meant when he said 'Board member of FUFOR'. -begin Post Jared- Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:20:08 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:39:22 -0500 Subject: Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? > From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> > Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:12:39 -0600 (CST) > Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:14:47 -0500 > Subject: Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? > In my opinion, too. In the meantime, can you spell publicity ploy > to sell computers? I didn't think so. This is conjecture Dennis. After looking into this business with ACC directly I came out of it real dubious about what is actually going in Jack Shulman's mind and his zealous dedication to the "alien transistor" theory. After my discussions with the man there is no question in my mind that he is convinced that what he is doing is grounded in reality, far fetched as it may be. Shulman probably understands that he is alone in this process and should not expect any assistance from the UFO community as this crusade is truly his own. People like Ed Wang and Bob Wolf have done nothing but drag Shulman into discredit with their wild conspiratorial claims, some of which ended up in my e-mail box. A member of the FUFOR board confirmed to me directly that Shulman's meeting with members of the DOD, Air Force, lawyers and security personnel at Princeton did in fact take place. After spending years in the computer industry I can think of no better way to injure a computer company's reputation and threaten it's future beyond what ACC has done here. I do not believe Shulman did this as a marketing ploy. but even so, I don't think this whole alien transistor circus will ever amount to anything. Jared. -end post Jared- __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/ Search for other documents from or mentioning: hvdp | jan | jared |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 Re: UFO Research and Mapping Tool From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:57:53 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:41:31 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Research and Mapping Tool >Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 00:48:50 -0500 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: UFO Research and Mapping Tool >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:19:47 -0700 >>From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: UFO Research and Mapping Tool >>'lo listmembers, >>To my knowledge, The most comprehensive and complete sightings >>database ever recordered on computer has been created by a >>software developer named Larry Hatch. It's a DOS program that >>maps the world and lists a record of sightings by year. It's >>catalog goes all the way back to Ezechial's sighting and contains >>sporadic sightings throughout the centuries but starts becoming >>dense around the 1700's. Actual recordings of waves don't really >[...] >>his own sighting data. Larry has put a lot of sleepless nights >>into this project and his support is ongoing. >>The program is called the UFO Research and Mapping Tool >>If interested information can be found at: >>http://www.flash.net/~joerit/docs/udemo.htm >No doubt about it....Hatch has a corner on the UFO data base >"market." You absolutely will not believe what his program can >do. Imagine being able to display 14,000 (or whatever the number >is now) sighitngs at their locations all over the globe or in >flat projection maps. Statistics? He's got 'em. I used it to >disprove the CIA's claim that "over 50 percent of UFOs after 1955 >were sighitng of the U-2" (remember that last summer?) I used >Hatch's program to isolate the years 1955-1960 or so and the time >periods 0400-0800 and 1600-2000, when the U=2 would be most >likely seen. >THere weren't many sigitngs there but, more importantly, ther was >no change in the number of sightings in these time periods whe >the U-2 started flying. I COULD NOT HAVE DONE THIS WITH ANY >OTHER DATA BASE ON SUCH A LARGE SCALE! No doubt Mr. Hatches' database is good but 14000 sightings isn't that many. The combined resources of MUFON, FUFOR, CUFOS, and The older defunct org's would total well over 100,000 possibly 200,000 sightings. If you really want good data you need sheer #'s of reports, otherwise, when you filter out what you aren't looking for, what you have left is so small a number, your validity is poor. The UUFORD (Universal UFO Report Database) is intended to combine all the reports available from all sources for the use of all ufologists, investigators, etc. to create whatever comparisons, charts, etc. that they could possibly think of. 14000 reports over a 50 year period is not enough. I realise what an effort it must have been for him to construct the database he has so far, but it makes more sense to get the whole ufological community together for a huge project for free to use. More effort than just one man, more reports from more sources, and open architecture for flexibility in use are some major advantages. Even MUFON's database is not open, not complete, and so far will not be free fro use. This will severely limit the ability of researchers to get the needed data for their hypothesis'. If we let profit interfere with the end goal of ufology (to get answers and prove our positions), we gain nothing and are restrained and will probably waste another 50 years getting at the truth. I have found a lot of talented support for the UUFORD project and expect it will be useful as soon as those who have the reports commit to sharing the info with us so we can get them into the database. We are certainly open to advice and expertise on the construction of UUFORD and the usage of the UFO data. In fact we welcome open participation and aid from MUFON, FUFOR, CUFOS, and all the rest. As a joint effort, it will most surely succeed and serve the needs of all, especially those organisations. I hope to hear from representatives of these org's as soon as they decide how and if they want to fit in the project. This is not a power game, but the first real effort at getting a long overdue database for ufo research off the ground and available to all who find it useful. There are many considerations to be taken into account (including security) and we are prepared to deal with them and take all advice and concerns to heart. Anyone interested in participating in UUFORD can contact me at: jhenry@wavefront.com I am acting as a facilitator at the moment in gaining and coordinating all participants, and their relative areas of effort. We already have lots of database, programming, webmaintaining, and word processing commitments and are still looking for more data source, hardware, and monetary commitments to get the ball rolling. We are already in the process of making decisions on construction, etc. but are still open to good ideas, advice, etc. I wish to thank those already joined and those that wish to. Joel Henry ***************************************************** Minnesota MUFON Webmaster Minnesota MUFON Web Page= http://www.wavefront.com/~jhenry/index.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 Re: 'Murderous Meteors' From: Edoardo Russo <edoardo.russo@torino.ALPcom.it> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:18:03 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:43:50 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Murderous Meteors' >Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:56:25 +0000 >From: Bryan Butcher <being@concentric.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'Murderous Meteors' >> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:25:05 -0800 >> From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: 'Murderous Meteors' >> I have over 100,000 newsclips at my >> immediate disposal. As far as I know, there are no >> "disproportionate numbers of 'meteor sightings'". What is your >> source of data for that statement? >100,000 newsclips is a tremendous resource! Can you sort these >clippings and do a detailed analysis of fireball sighting trends >over the past, say, 50 years? Is there a place the public can >access these newsclippings? Why do you say that? 100,000 newsclippings is not very much, even if you limit yourself to the USA (and I don't know what geographical extension Ed's collection has). Just think that as for our little country, Italy, CISU files hold just about 100,000 UFO newsclippings (8,000 in the last seven quiet years). Regards Edoardo Russo Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici CISU, Casella postale 82, 10100 Torino - tel 011-3290279 - fax 011-545033 http://www.arpnet.it/~ufo e-mail: edoardo.russo@torino.alpcom.it
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 Alfred's Odd Ode #207 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:35:09 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:35:28 -0500 Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #207 Apology to MW #207 (For December 22, 1997) It interests me, then, how pathetic we're painted; we that have seen pointless lights in the sky. We that admit that we don't have a clue, as we watch the anomalous caper and fly. It's taken for fun in our crass TV ads. The college of mankind is mute. The edge of hard science forbidden the area, if they look they are labeled as kooks, non astute. Religion admits that they're real, but evil. "They're stuff of the devil, for sure and be damned." And, "agents of Satan have cluttered the mind set -- they've stuffed it with nonsense; it's filled up, and crammed." The news is the worst, it grins like a patron. They paint us in caps of aluminum foil. They front all the clutter from skeptics, and bunkies, then ignore the community, its work, and real toil. Society works to distract from reality with taxes and sanctions that wound and confine. They do this to keep you from thinking too much 'cause it messes with the lifestyles of a few who'd live sublime. "Go on and have a dozen kids"!, those few make culture say, so they can, then, respect much less the single one that works and pays. Look you out into the night -- into starry stellar vastness. To _think_ that you might be alone's one monumental crassness! The length of its potential, maybe, fills your soul with fear, but ignore it at your peril; *forewarned* is better beer. "Lions, and tigers, and bears" ain't the issue! We'd get enough warning, of threat, t'were it _them_. The meter man's order is toppled's the issue =85 it's the root of confusion -- its seed pod, and stem. All shiftless injustice thus hides in confusion. All manners of *maybe* can dull the best sword. Get in their face, and ask them tough questions, and they'll shut you in their dungeons like they're doing with John Ford! So, who is pathetic when questions are answered? Who's then pathetic, and missing their screws? Who is pathetic when truth paints the picture? Who with some courage will tell us real news? Lehmberg@snowhill.com It takes guts to give up some advantage so the rest can live with efficacy. We can have that kind of guts, we could give it to ourselves. Humans should, after all, be born to respect, then have an opportunity to lose it -- but to have never had it at all =85 that _must_ be a hell on Earth. Think about _that_ consuming your roast beasts and pounding your pumpkin pies=85 have a Merry Updates, and a happy Transcapaciter <g>. -- Explore the Alien View? http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/ "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake. Today they'd force a little aluminum cap on his= head.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 Re: Brasilia's Letter From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:13:53 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:21:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter > Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:41:49 -0800 > From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Brasilia's Letter > > From: "A. J. Gevaerd" <gevaerd@gold.alanet.com.br> > > To: "UFO UpDate" <updates@globalserve.net>, > > Subject: Brasilia's Letter > > Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 10:14:42 -0200 > > +++ FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE +++ > > The First World UFO Forum, Brasilia (Brazil), 07 to 14 December, > > produced a letter that was delivered to some authorities invited > > to represent Brazilian's Federal Government and the Ministry of > > Aeronautics. This document was called Brasilia's Letter and > > consisted of a respectfull request for our government to open a > > few files about UFOs. Its contents is bellow. > <snip> > > Others decided not to sign: Stanton Friedman > > (Canada), Mark Carlotto, Donald Ware, Peter Davenport (EUA) and > > Alegandro Agostinelli (Argentina). Per Andersen (Denmark), left > > earlier and let us know by e-mail that he wouldn't sign. > > All these people had their oppinions and positions fully > > respected. Although we understand why Mark Carlotto wouldn't > > sign, since he works for the US Government, we simply cannot > > understand why people as Stan Friedman, Don Ware and Davenport > > wouldn't sign. By doing that, they simply refused to support a > > legitimate request of the Brazilian ufologist to our government. > <snip> > > Respectfully, > > A. J. Gevaerd, International Coordinator, World UFO Forum > Hello Mr. Gevaerd and List: > While the intent of the letter is admirable, it is easy to understand > why some of those attending would not sign it. In fact, I am surprised > to see that Bud Hopkins and David Jacobs signed it. The problem, as I > see it, is "fact" number two: > > The following facts > > were presented in the presence of the Brazilian air force > > minister: > > 2. That the origin of such phenomenon, already identified as > > extraterrestrial and whose visiting vehicles come from > > civilizations technologically far advanced than our own, co-exist > > with us in the Universe. > Since when has this become a "fact"? I thought this was still a > hypothesis and subject to differing opinions. > I wouldn't have signed it either! > John Koopmans To List:There are several reasons for my not signing the letter: 1. I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada. Should I be telling the Brazilian government what it should be doing? I don't think so. 2. Does Brazil have a FOIA or equivalent or other legal procedures for seeking government information? If so, have they been used? 3. I certainly have seen no evidence that a.military authorities throughout the world have confirmed visits to earth by space vehicles. b. the visits to earth have been gradually increasing. c. these civilizations display no hositilty towards us. 4. If Brazilian UFO groups are aware of government data on Operation Prado and the May 1986 events, that certainly suggests to me that the government does indeed already have a UFO investigative body. 5. I also didn't sign Kent Jeffrey's strange Roswell Initiative because it jumped from l947 events to wanting the US government to release everything it has ever obtained which would certainly include technnological data obtained yesterday which I think would be ridiculous. Petitions like this one and the Rockefeller effort to convince VIPs to have their friends release classified data because some group wants it make no more sense to me than picketting the White House. 6. The DCI finally released the total amount of the Black Intelligence Budget (26.6 Billion$) in mid October because of a court action, not because of a petition by foreigners. Yes, I am indeed certainly convinced that 1.SOME UFOs are ET spacecraft, 2.that some few people in governments know what is going on (i.e. A Cosmic Watergate)3. That none of the anti arguments stand up. and 4 We are dealing with the biggest story of the millenium, visits to planet Earth by alien Spacecraft and successful cover up of the best data (bodies and wreckage) for 50 years. I honestly thought I had made this very clear in Crash at Corona and in TOP SECRET/MAJIC and at the beginning of all my lectures including the one in Brazil. Puzzled in Fredericton, NB, Canada, Stan Friedman Search for other documents from or mentioning: fsphys | john.koopmans |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 22 Re: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:39:59 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:32:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... >From: Ufojoe1 <Ufojoe1@aol.com> [Joe Murgia] >Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:09:35 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... >John, who else has presented such topics to people on Capitol >Hill? I would like to read about them too. I'm sure there are >others. Let me know. >Joe Murgia Joe- There has been a lot of movement behind the scenes, which is going to be far more fruitful at this time. Greer's "briefing" did take place on an "invitation only" basis. Greer set this up as his own "dog and pony show" and didn't even notify some of the local groups (such as FUFOR) about it's taking place. Of course, Greer and FUFOR haven't been seeing eye to eye on too much lately. . . . <g> You may feel that Greer is actually accomplishing something, but there's no evidence of that here on the "Hill". Following his May "briefing" has there been any movement in Congress to look into this matter? Do we actually know anything more today than we did before his "briefing" had taken place? The entity that would investigate the abuse of secrecy in government has been tied up with the issue of campaign finance abuse, and that (I'm sorry to say) has taken precedence over everything else. I mean, who wants to discuss a controversial subject when you can take your political opponent "to the cleaners". I would certainly support any effort by anyone to bring this matter out before Congress and the public, but Greer's efforts IMHO haven't done much to change the climate here on the "Hill", which was allegedly the purpose. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 The FUFOR Factor?? [was: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Leith] Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:52:27 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:39:40 -0500 Subject: The FUFOR Factor?? [was: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:00:57 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:35:15 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >My question to you is: Who gave you this information? Who did >you check with to see if it was true? Certainly not anyone from >FUFOR. Seems to me you ought to be more careful in future! I refer you to: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1997/dec/m15-017.shtml where you will find this: From:jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:20:08 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:39:22 -0500 Subject: Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? [Snipped all but FUFOR reference -Rebecca] "A member of the FUFOR board confirmed to me directly that Shulman's meeting with members of the DOD, Air Force, lawyers and security personnel at Princeton did in fact take place." [end quote] Henny latched on to that and hasn't let us hear the end of it. Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: "George Fergus" <fergus@mail.ccrl.mot.com> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:33:50 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:58:57 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:07:17 +0100 (MET) > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >> can you explain where you get the impression that the USAF has >> "acknowledged" any of ACCs claims? > USAF confirmed at this meeting their estimate that the transistor > technology was from a military project on the basis of the > provided evidence, notes and witnesses. FUFOR confirms that the > meeting took place. According to what was published at the time, the technology that was first used to manufacture transistors was originally developed by researchers at Purdue University and at Bell Laboratories, under military contracts, for the manufacture of semiconductor diodes for the military's microwave radar. Have you seen any evidence that the USAF has "acknowledged" anything more than this regarding ACC's claims about the transistor? > All this bickering about ACC providing no evidence is just the > talk of people who prefer to keep groping in the dark. If Shulman has evidence, then why doesn't he put copies of this evidence on ACC's web page, rather than the collection of allegations and hearsay that is there now? > Jack responded then, but hasn't done that since. No wonder, if > the Ufological community has One Big Talent it is to produce an > infinite amount of bogus to discredit a case. > I still don't understand how Jack has figured out the UFO > community so fast. It simply confirms my earlier suspicion that > the man is a goddamn genius! > Since then, he doesn't seem to bother about all the negativity on > lists such as these, and rightly so. To him, these lists are a > sideshow, and as long as the negativity, the irrelevance, the > flaws of logic and the armchair analyses keep polluting these > lists, they remain that. I've sent 3 e-mails to ACC, and the strange replies I got consisted of the same sort of unsupported assertions and factual errors that appear on their web page, with the addition of ad hominem attacks. Apparently these were from ACC's VP John Schwartz, rather than from Jack Shulman, but they caused me to suspect that at least some people at ACC were not making an unbiased interpretation of whatever documents they've discovered. -George Fergus
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:05:47 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:16:41 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> > Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:05:35 +0100 (MET) > Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:15:10 -0500 > Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:00:57 -0800 > >From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Jan, > The information came from my memory. I remembered Jared > Anderson saying as much on this list. However, my memory > was not entirely accurate, because Jared had said he had > this information from one member of the FUFOR board. Full > post by Jared dug up from the archives is included below > my message. > So, if 'one member of the FUFOR board' is not entitled > to release such statements, then that is news to me. On > second thought, being familiar with the UFO community, > the confusion does not surprise me. > So I retract that: 'FUFOR acknowledged that the meeting took > place' and you can convey that to Richard Hall. But I maintain > that 'Jared Anderson says he knows a FUFOR board member who > can confirm the meeting took place'. > To clear this matter up, I just had a lengthy conversation > with Jack Shulman before I read your post, Jan, and he says > that he does not remember anybody from FUFOR. Having spent a > goddamn fortune on this international call - the man is virtually > uninterruptable - I will not call Richard Hall. I hope you > understand. > Jack had other things to say as well and I hope to get > to that later. About giving evidence that the meeting took > place, he says he doesn't care and that he is not in the > business of dealing with e-mail lists anyway. His hope is to > force the US Air Force to change their stance on the release > of data about the UFO phenomenon by lawsuit or by other means. > He expects to be treated as a liar and a nut. > For now, I am interested in who Jared Anderson meant when > he said 'Board member of FUFOR'. The reason I did not post the individual's name is because he specifically asked that I not post any of the contents of our conversation to the Internet (I don't believe this individual uses the Internet or has e-mail). The individual in question did, in fact, confirm to me that the meeting took place as I specified earlier and I will stand by my conviction here. Any errononeus association between FUFOR and ACC as a result of my earlier statements by individuals on this list or elsewhere is not my responsibility. I did expand on this information privately with another list member that has also been speaking to the same board member I have and has been briefing him on the situation with ACC. Whether this board member is actually interested in the matter, I couldn't say. Jared.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: Brasilia's Letter From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:22:49 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:18:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter >Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:23:49 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Brasilia's Letter >>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:41:49 -0800 >>From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Brasilia's Letter >>Hello Mr. Gevaerd and List: >>While the intent of the letter is admirable, it is easy to understand >>why some of those attending would not sign it. In fact, I am surprised >>to see that Bud Hopkins and David Jacobs signed it. The problem, as I >>see it, is "fact" number two: >>> The following facts >>> were presented in the presence of the Brazilian air force >>> minister: >>> 2. That the origin of such phenomenon, already identified as >>> extraterrestrial and whose visiting vehicles come from >>> civilizations technologically far advanced than our own, co-exist >>> with us in the Universe. >>Since when has this become a "fact"? I thought this was still a >>hypothesis and subject to differing opinions. >>I wouldn't have signed it either! >>John Koopmans >John, >Right on! If asked, I would not have signed it either. Much as >I like and respect my friend A.J., I think he is way off base on >endorsing this document. I see no facts in this document, only >speculations based on very limited evidence. >Bob I just wanted to add that I too was a bit disappointed to see that Budd Hopkins and Dave Jacobs had put their names to a document that contains so much pure speculation. I also have respect for AJ and I'm just as surprized at his involvement. John Velez Search for other documents from or mentioning: jvif | bob |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:07:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:43:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... >From: Ufojoe1 <Ufojoe1@aol.com> [Joe Murgia] >Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:09:35 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... > >>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 03:05:57 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... > > >>>I read posts from April this year where people were complaining >?>about Steven Greer's personality and the way he went about >>>getting his contacts in Washington. Huh? Who the hell cares! If >>>he is successful getting the open hearings, will people on this >>>list still complain that he was mean and played "their" game to >>>do it? I don't understand this logic. I thought getting the >>1. What you call an, "open hearing" is stretching the taffy a >>bit. To this day no-one knows who all of the "official" attendees >>were. (Mind you these are -our- elected officials!) nor does >>anyone have a copy of the minutes of these "open hearings." Dr >>Greer himself told us that we'd all, "have to wait for his >>-future book- to come out!" (That's a direct quote!) Hiya Joe, hi All, Joe wrote, >The meeting in April was a briefing not hearing. If I wrote >hearing I apologize. I agree that the briefing should have been >open to all but don't blame Greer. Blame the people who attended. >They probably insisted on secrecy so they wouldn't be labeled UFO >nuts. You're probably right about the politico's Joe but it doesn't excuse Greers refusal to provide -basic- information about the proceedings afterwards. OK cool, some fat cats are worried about guilt by association and maybe it's an election year for them, but Greer refused to talk about the proceedings at all. It was only after much pressure was applied and much tortured tooth pulling that he (grudgingly) gave up the little that we do have. It's been months, where is a detailed report? What was accomplished? Has anything -new- happened since? Greer tells us to "wait for his book!" >The Congressman (Jim Davis (D), Tampa) that represents me agrees >that all of this should be out in the open. I hope he pursues >this matter like he said he would. Geez, I wish we had someone as 'responsive' as your guy here in NY. I'm stuck with Al D'matto! <G> >>2. Greer et al are prone to secrecy. Not what I look for in an >>individual who presumes to represent -me- before our elected >>officials in Washington. (Who -elected- Greer "the peoples >>representative? Not I. Did -you- get to vote Joe? >Just kidding, sorry. Greer can say whatever he >wants as long as he gets open hearings. He can call me names for >all I care. I just want open hearings. Who else has made the >headway that he has? I know you have to take the word of Greer >and others that this briefing actually took place the way he said >it did but there are others who are with him (Mitchell) who I >think are credible and I don't think they would alow Greer to >just make stuff up about what happened in April. Joe, the "end" doesn't -always- justify the means. No, it's not OK for Greer to do and say whatever he wants. We shouldn't -have to- take his (or anyone elses) word for what transpired at those sessions. We have a right to know! Those were (our) elected officials in there. And I think you're making a bad assumption about Mitchell's involvement being anything more than his giving testimony. You imply that Mitchell will keep Greer 'in check' somehow by the sheer force of his character. We have no evidence that such a relationship exists between them. What we do have evidence for is Greers need for absolute control and how covetous he is of information. Especially what he likes to call, "inside information." Yes, I've spoken to him on a few occasions and I gotta tell you that I wasn't impressed with him then either Joe. >I don't care how he got into the situation as long as he didn't >hurt anybody in the process. He's doing what it takes to get the >job done. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that >don't like his style but that's going to happen with anybody. I'm an old fart Joe. A placard carrying anti-war, anti-nuke 60's nightmare. Phrases like, "doing what it takes to get the job done" when applied to Washington DC and all that it implies really rubs my old radical hackles the wrong way. <G> One of the things the we as Americans need to address is the -business as usual, under the table, behind closed doors, who gave what to who BS thaty passes for "government" in this country. If we're not a part of the solution,... yeah, you know the rest,.. then we're a part of the problem. Our backyard is ufology. Let's keep our own backyard free of such low practices. Let's not 'condone it' or excuse it in anyone who claims to represent us. Let's demand the best and maybe one day we'll actually get it! >If "somebody" is paying for the Lear jets and limos than I hope >that "somebody" keeps it up until Greer reaches the goal of open >hearings. Why do they have to be accountable to anybody if it's >private money? I know Greer is playing the game that has to be >played to get results. You sound like a decent guy Joe and I hope that deep down inside you really don't mean a word of what you've said here. If so, then they (the backroom wheeler dealer asshol*s) have won! If decent people have begun to accept the practices that you have outlined as "acceptable" and "par for the course" then we are all in much deeper ca ca than I ever imagined. >Like I said, he's getting results so I don't care if he asks for >help or not. You should care Joe. The seeking of consensus is central to the democratic process. >John, who else has presented such topics to people on Capitol >Hill? I would like to read about them too. I'm sure there are >others. Let me know. The 'best approach' to have come along so far was the one used for the Roswell Declaration. (Although that one fell apart at the last minute in one of the most anticlimactic moments in modern ufology!) The point is, that they tried to include everyone in the process. It was -the- single most democratic thing that has been tried to date. So what, it fizzled in the end because of individuals, in house conflicts, and last minute changes, not to mention a terminal case of politics. But the -idea- the method, the inclusion of as many as could be recruited is good! A popular movement would bring a lot more politico's to the table than any one man running around wining and dining his way into peoples hearts. The people united, are a powerful force for change. Oops, flashback, sorry! <VBG> Take care Joe. John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: 'Murderous Meteors' From: Bryan Butcher <being@concentric.net> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:55:18 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:48:53 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Murderous Meteors' > > Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:56:25 +0000 > > From: Bryan Butcher <being@concentric.net> > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'Murderous Meteors' > > Ed... > > 100,000 newsclips is a tremendous resource! Can you sort these > > clippings and do a detailed analysis of fireball sighting trends > > over the past, say, 50 years? > I am in the process of building a central database on the known > newsclips but it is strictly bibliographical in nature and in > essence will only point a researcher to the prime source of the > news story. <snip catalogue history...wonderful information> Ed... Thank you for the information, it was greatly appreciated. > > Any increase in meteorite, and more importantly, bolide sightings > > could interest a great many people in many fields...for you to > > say it shouldn't interest UFO researchers is a bit harsh...yes? > It was harsh. A reaction of mine to the tabloid mentality > expressed in the original posted article. If you are interested > in serious research related to bolide sightings check with the > American Meteor Society internet site for appropriate links. Also > check with the largest library near you (may have to go to the > National archives and/or Library of Congress) and look up the > publication "Notice To Mariners" which is/was compiled by the > Navy Hydrographic Office. They maintained records of bolides and > fireballs and published sighting reports. It is a great resource > for possible UFO sightings prior to WWII. Also look for books and > articles written by H.H. Ninninger (sp?), past curator of the > American Meteor Museum whose holdings are now at the British > Museum and at Arizona State U. ...again...wonderful information, but doesn't tell us very much about trends or predictions. I asked you a simple question based on your response to the posters comments regarding the occurrance of bolide meteors. My question was: "Can you sort these clippings and do a detailed analysis of fireball sighting trends over the past, say, 50 years?" Secondary to the question was a follow-up inquiry as to the availability of this information to the public...which you answered quite thoroughly. I don't think you answered the first one however. > And as a professed amateur astronomer you should have also been > aware that this incident occured at the tail end of the annual > Geminid shower which lasted from Dec. 7 to 15 with the peak on > the 13-14. Geminid meteors are famous for their brightness and > whiteness. They usually peak out at 50-100 an hour and you can > see them from all over the Earth. One doesn't have to go to a > village in South America to observe the Geminids. > I do realize this, and agree the meteors in question could have very well been associated with the Geminids...this does not discount the events in Bogota, Greenland, or the central US as being anomalous meteor activity. We are also traveling into the area comet Hale-Bopp passed earlier in the year...without historical data to predict the effect this had on annual meteor showers. Comet Hale-Bopp was unique...if you do not agree with this, then I suggest you refer to the vast amounts of comet data. Most of this can be found at the places you suggested...plus much more. Here's the latest from Hal Weaver, principal investigator of the comet: http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~weaver/hb_stis.html Nowhere in Dr. Weaver's comments is the issue of effects on meteor activity mentioned...and understandably so, he was not investigating this variable. > > <big snip of further data and requests for data verification> > [BIG SNIP OF SPECULATION AND TABLOID NAUSEA] > > Ed...what research can you provide that scientifically proves > > IFOs to be hyped sensationalism designed to exploit the gullible > > public? > Reference the original article. That is what my post applied to. > Don't make more of it than it was intended to address. There is > no evidence that points to a meteorite as the cause of this fire. > The article itself states that. PERIOD! >From the article...what kind of evidence do you want? "But he said a hole, measuring about 10 inches in diameter, was discovered in the zinc roof of the house, along with traces of a sulphur-like substance that was being studied in a local laboratory. The hole in the roof had been punched from the outside, Rojas said, adding that everything seemed to indicate the children were the unwitting victims of a meteorite." > > The Bogota incident is not exclusive...it merely took > > the lives of four young humans to gain some attention. > No, it took the speculative comment of a Fire Chief who couldn't > come up with any real evidence of what caused the fire in the > first place and that speculation has now been promoted and > amplified to even suggest "murderous meteors". That is what gave > the article attention, not that four children died in a fire. I > think Ed Wood would have been very proud to run with this story. > (GRIN) Perhaps the fire chief was being speculative...he didn't have all the evidence (samples of the sulphur were still being examined), but he had already ruled out several other causes. I realize we are asked to take the opinion of a human we know nothing about...this is the only leap of faith in this incident. A meteor could have struck the shack, and subsequently killed the four children. If this is the case, Ed Wood...and all other reporters on the planet could run the story with a clear conscious. > > If you were the children's parents, would you want a real answer > > as to why they died the way they did? > I would want real answers, not tabloid journalism using the death > of my children to promote the frenzy among gullibles. This is a ridiculous response. You are being speculative when you state the motives of those involved are for tabloid journalism...you have no proof of this. > > Perhaps they were playing > > with matches? Perhaps some fireman wanted to get in on the South > > American UFO Enigma and hype the story for money... yeah... > > right... after he carried a little bundle of charred remains from > > a shanty shack. It's hard for me to accept this is the > > case...but perhaps I'm just too gullible. > I would want a real answer, based on facts not speculation. But > then again, ufology as practiced today is for the most part > sensationalistic and speculative. As a point, that is all you > have offered in your criticism. Not one yota of evidence to > suggest that this article was justified, or that the review given > by the poster was justified in its tabloid treatment of an > unfortunate incident. > Ed Stewart Ed...I'm not clear on your comment here, are you suggesting the article reporting the incident is not genuine? Did this incident happen? If the fire chief found a hole in the roof...coupled with an ensuing fire, sightings of fireballs, and a foreign sulphuric substance (still to be analyzed) found at the site, the preliminary assessment is valid. It is not conclusive, but it is far from speculative. I did not write my response to you in a critical manner...I merely questioned your questions to the poster. I also questioned your assertions of illicit motives by those involved with the investigation. Something I find quite speculative. cheers, Bryan! -- _________________ interests - - - - ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Dreamsenses: The Home of Being! - http://www.raccoon.com/~bryan The Des Moines Astronomical Society - http://www.sciowa.org/~dmas The Near Pathfinder Anomaly Analysis Group - http://www.mufor.org/ares _________________ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: ACC Seeking Independent Investigation From: Jilain <jilain@rt66.com> [Jilain Jones] Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:05:13 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:52:30 -0500 Subject: Re: ACC Seeking Independent Investigation ACC Seeking Independent Investigation Lan Lamphere, Director of the newly formed Nexxus Organization, has been in contact today with Jack Shulman, President of the American Computer Company. Mr. Shulman has requested that Nexxus undertake an impartial investigation of the material in ACC's possession that led to their recent announcements regarding the origin of their transcapacitor technology. While talks are still pending on the details of this requested analysis, Mr. Lamphere has confirmed that ACC did approach Nexxus about working in a consulting capacity to do an independent study of the material. As per the standards of the Nexxus organization, it was made clear to Mr. Shulman that any information gleaned from such an investigation would be made public, with nothing withheld. In preliminary discussions, Mr. Shulman agreed to this stipulation on the part of Nexxus. The Nexxus Organization is rapidly forming into a notable research and investigative team, drawing together scientists and ufologists from around the world for the purpose of scientific, in-depth study of any and all aspects of the UFO phenomenon. Information on the Nexxus group, its ever-increasing list of participants, the group's mission statement, and directions on how anyone can become a member of this organization can be found at the Nexxus webpage: http://www.nexxus.org jilain@rt66.com IRC undernet channel #blackvault ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers, And things are not what they seem.~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Global Surveyor's Launch Monitored By UFOs? From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 07:37:50 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:31:24 -0500 Subject: Global Surveyor's Launch Monitored By UFOs? This is a rather old, but very interesting item that I just found on Florida Today's site. URL: http://www.flatoday.com/space/explore/stories/1997/022897a.htm ******* FLORIDA TODAY Space Online For February 28, 1997 FOIAville: Good things take time By Billy Cox A FLORIDA TODAY column CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. - OK - even though the Air Force is now 39 days late in responding to its own Freedom of Information Act deadline, and its public relations officer at Los Angeles Air Force Base isn't returning calls, I still don't buy the conspiracy stuff. I'd have to be paranoid, and I'm glad I'm not one of those raving lunatics. ON THE OTHER HAND ... !!! On Nov. 7 last year, shortly after 11 a.m., Jim Graw, a security guard at Aquarina in Melbourne Beach, was glancing east when he became transfixed by two elliptical metallic objects, each roughly the size of a jumboliner, cruising north at a leisurely pace along the shoreline. Glinting sunlight, they were visible for about a minute, not even a mile away. Graw was amazed. "I couldn't identify them. They were definitely round and disc-shaped," he said. Less than an hour later, after watching the Delta rocket's first-stage separation that launched Mars Global Surveyor from Cape Canaveral Air Station, Wes Clark noticed a white pinpoint of light entering the picture some 40 degrees above the horizon. Several moments later, the blip was joined by two identical UFOs, which proceeded to perform strange maneuvers in a triangulated formation. At 12:16 p.m., as Clark and perhaps a dozen fellow USA Flight Systems employees watched from the parking lot of the space station processing facility, what appeared to be a single jet fighter slashed in from the south, briefly scattering the UFOs. With the jet banking and cutting "lazy figure-8s, as if it was on an intercept pattern," Clark took meticulous notes on the chronology of events, which included an entry at 1:05 p.m. listing a pass by a "high-flying aircraft with a short fuselage and long wing and white on the bottom, going from northeast to southwest, as if tracking the objects." Clark finally went back to work at 1:08 p.m. because he'd spent his entire lunch break in the parking lot. A while later, Clark got a "holy cow!" phone call from a buddy, space shuttle inspector Scott Cook at the logistics building, several miles away. Cook had seen the objects, too. "They looked like three stars, in broad daylight, arranged like a pyramid, before they started moving," Cook said later. "When I showed them to other people, they said, `Oh, they're probably just weather balloons.' But I didn't think weather balloons could move like that. And I thought the winds would've carried them away by then, because they were there for an hour." Cook also saw the first jet ("I'm not sure what it was - an F-15 maybe, or it could've been a T-38") as well as the second, which he surmised was a U-2. Cook watched the show until 2:30. He counted eight U-2 passes. During the last, Cook says one of the UFOs began following the U-2. Cook says he also watched two more jets streaking into the area, apparently surveilling the objects. "The (UFO) I got the best view of, the bottom one, looked like a perfectly round star," Cook says. Rawinsond and/or jimsphere weather balloons? Or something else? A circuitous maze of queries meandered from the Lockheed Missiles and Space Ops to the Eastern Test Range to the Federal Aviation Authority before finally crunching into a FOIA request for data records with the USAF in Washington, D.C. They've got this really cool picket fence of Defense Support Program satellites that can allegedly track the nose hairs off a garden snake. The most interesting lock-ins - the unknowns that enter the atmosphere and then veer out again - are rumored to be called "fastwalkers," although that term doesn't officially exist. Well, you know how zany things can get in Bureaucracy World, being understaffed, underfinanced, overworked and all that. No surprise here that USAF/Washington exceeded its legal mandate to acknowledge receipt of my FOIA within 10 days by nearly two weeks. Like, when was the last time any of those paper-pushers got a raise, anyway? The last I heard, the FOIA had been peddled off on LAAFB, which wrote on Dec. 20, "We will provide your office with the determination and/or the current status of your FOIA request on or before 20 Jan 97." Just for grins, LAAFB even included a phone number. You know, they probably were weather balloons, after all. But this is how weird rumors get started. I'm glad I'm mature and professional enough not to participate. Billy Cox's column runs every Friday. He can be reached at 242-3774, or FLORIDA TODAY, P.O. Box 419000, Melbourne, FL 32941-9000. Please e-mail comments or questions to FLORIDA TODAY's Space Online office. This World Wide Web site is copyright =A9 1997, FLORIDA TODAY.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Unusual Disclosure on ACC Website: POINTED FAQ From: acsa@ix.netcom.com, Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:08:47 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:36:10 -0500 Subject: Unusual Disclosure on ACC Website: POINTED FAQ Just received this from Ed Wang. ******* 23. December 1997 07.34.57 Message From: acsa@ix.netcom.com,Internet Subject: Very Unusual Disclosure on the ACC Website: a very POINTED FAQ. To: Stig Agermose Well, here's one for the record books. I'm stumped and I'm a little in shock. URL: http://www.American-Computer.com/expose.htm A very pointed Disclosure FAQ has just mysteriously appeared on ACC's website. It has caught me by surprise as this is the first time they put anything on the web that they have not emailed me to tell me about. Interesting: it's dated Christmas eve, but it's posted tonight. It does appear to describe some very revealing things, very bold, and it makes some very distinct points I am not sure everyone is going to be happy with, but I think many are going be very happy with. It also says its been "Posted a day early...". I wonder if they are planning on shutting off the Roswell site? As an aside to one and all: even if you've taken the time to write me, I haven't been able to download my mail from the server, because I have suddenly received several, well, many large emails and am awaiting help from my ISP. I can only "send". So don't be alarmed if I don't respond for a day or two... -- Ed Wang.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 'UFO/Nazi' Bibliography From: Maurizio Verga <mverga@wolf.it> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:58:02 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:37:58 -0500 Subject: 'UFO/Nazi' Bibliography Dear Friends, please be informed that at the URL http://www.ufo.it/german/german.htm you may find the first updated bibliography devoted to the controversial subject of the alleged "UFO/Nazi connection", as well as of German Secret Weapons of WWII. The bibliography is regularly revised and expanded, also thanks to the collaboration of people like you. So if you feel to know references about both subjects worth to be considered for inclusion, please send me a message at mauverga@wolf.it More, I am interested in getting copies of the older or less know references included in the bibliography. If you have any of them, please get in touch with me including a detailed list. Merry Christmas to everybody, Maurizio Verga
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:43:12 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:51:36 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso At 01:58 23-12-97 -0500, you wrote: >Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:33:50 -0600 (CST) >From: "George Fergus" <fergus@mail.ccrl.mot.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:07:17 +0100 (MET) >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >> USAF confirmed at this meeting their estimate that the transistor >> technology was from a military project on the basis of the >> provided evidence, notes and witnesses. FUFOR confirms that the >> meeting took place. >According to what was published at the time, the technology that >was first used to manufacture transistors was originally >developed by researchers at Purdue University and at Bell >Laboratories, under military contracts, for the manufacture of >semiconductor diodes for the military's microwave radar. >Have you seen any evidence that the USAF has "acknowledged" >anything more than this regarding ACC's claims about the >transistor? I haven't seen anything. I am saying that ACC says that the USAF confirmed their estimate that the transistor technology was from a military project on the basis of the provided evidence, notes and witnesses. Specifically, from a project that concerned an object not of this earth. I am also saying that people who have developed a working relationship with ACC have satisfied themselves that this is true. >> All this bickering about ACC providing no evidence is just the >> talk of people who prefer to keep groping in the dark. >If Shulman has evidence, then why doesn't he put copies of this >evidence on ACC's web page, rather than the collection of >allegations and hearsay that is there now? Shulman doesn't care about people who doubt what he does, because he is spending enough time on this thing already. The only thing he wants is to force the USAF to release statements, documents, ships and carcasses of dead alien bodies to prove that they have alien technology in their possession. The only thing he wants from the public is to help him achieve that goal. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: ACC Seeking Independent Investigation From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:43:14 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:52:44 -0500 Subject: Re: ACC Seeking Independent Investigation >Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:05:13 -0700 >To: "UFO Sky Searchers International" <deeaob@sherman.midplains.net> >From: Jilain <jilain@rt66.com> [Jilain Jones] >Subject: ACC Seeking Independent Investigation >ACC Seeking Independent Investigation >Lan Lamphere, Director of the newly formed Nexxus Organization, >has been in contact today with Jack Shulman, President of the >American Computer Company. Mr. Shulman has requested that Nexxus >undertake an impartial investigation of the material in ACC's >possession that led to their recent announcements regarding the >origin of their transcapacitor technology. While talks are still >pending on the details of this requested analysis, Mr. Lamphere >has confirmed that ACC did approach Nexxus about working in a >consulting capacity to do an independent study of the material. >As per the standards of the Nexxus organization, it was made >clear to Mr. Shulman that any information gleaned from such an >investigation would be made public, with nothing withheld. In >preliminary discussions, Mr. Shulman agreed to this stipulation >on the part of Nexxus. >The Nexxus Organization is rapidly forming into a notable >research and investigative team, drawing together scientists and >ufologists from around the world for the purpose of scientific, >in-depth study of any and all aspects of the UFO phenomenon. >Information on the Nexxus group, its ever-increasing list of >participants, the group's mission statement, and directions on >how anyone can become a member of this organization can be found >at the Nexxus webpage: >http://www.nexxus.org >jilain@rt66.com >IRC undernet channel #blackvault The newly released information by ACC to be found on http://accpc.com/expose.htm is in contradictino with this. ACC specifically denies a co-project with Nexxus. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: 'Murderous Meteors' From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:04:35 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:05:59 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Murderous Meteors' > Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:55:18 +0000 > From: Bryan Butcher <being@concentric.net> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'Murderous Meteors' <snip> > I asked you a simple question based > on your response to the posters comments regarding the occurrance > of bolide meteors. > My question was: > "Can you sort these clippings and do a detailed analysis of > fireball sighting trends over the past, say, 50 years?" I answered it. Learn how to read and comprehend the English language. > Secondary to the question was a follow-up inquiry as to the > availability of this information to the public...which you > answered quite thoroughly. I don't think you answered the first > one however. What you think is irrelevant. <snip> > > > <big snip of further data and requests for data verification> Still waiting! It won't be forthcoming. That does not diminish the importance and the relevance of the request. > > [BIG SNIP OF SPECULATION AND TABLOID NAUSEA] > > Reference the original article. That is what my post applied to. > > Don't make more of it than it was intended to address. There is > > no evidence that points to a meteorite as the cause of this fire. > > The article itself states that. PERIOD! > "But he said a hole, measuring about 10 inches in diameter, was > discovered in the zinc roof of the house, along with traces of > a sulphur-like substance that was being studied in a local > laboratory. So? What are the results of that inquiry? Have you bothered to try and find out since you seem to be championing what is otherwise tabloid speculation? > The hole in the roof had been punched from the outside, Rojas > said, adding that everything seemed to indicate the children > were the unwitting victims of a meteorite." And once you bring yourself up to date with the English language, maybe, just maybe, you will understand the difference between the above and the implication of "murderous". > > > The Bogota incident is not exclusive...it merely took > > > the lives of four young humans to gain some attention. > > No, it took the speculative comment of a Fire Chief who couldn't > > come up with any real evidence of what caused the fire in the > > first place and that speculation has now been promoted and > > amplified to even suggest "murderous meteors". That is what gave > > the article attention, not that four children died in a fire. I > > think Ed Wood would have been very proud to run with this story. > > (GRIN) > Perhaps the fire chief was being speculative... There was no perhaps. He was speculative, but he wasn't the one that said "murderous meteorites". That added layer of speculation was left to a "ufologist" to make and apparently championed by you. > > > If you were the children's parents, would you want a real answer > > > as to why they died the way they did? > > I would want real answers, not tabloid journalism using the death > > of my children to promote the frenzy among gullibles. > This is a ridiculous response. There is nothing ridiculous about my answer. That is exactly what the original poster did in his editorializing of the news article. > You are being speculative when > you state the motives of those involved are for tabloid > journalism...you have no proof of this. There is zero need to address motivation. The story is tabloid journalism and it is that aspect that is being hyped and championed by you, whatever your motivation is. > > > Perhaps they were playing > > > with matches? Perhaps some fireman wanted to get in on the South > > > American UFO Enigma and hype the story for money... yeah... > > > right... after he carried a little bundle of charred remains from > > > a shanty shack. It's hard for me to accept this is the > > > case...but perhaps I'm just too gullible. There is no perhaps. You have already demonstrated that you wish to dwell in gullibility and not muster your energy into finding facts to support your initial emotional reaction. > > I would want a real answer, based on facts not speculation. But > > then again, ufology as practiced today is for the most part > > sensationalistic and speculative. As a point, that is all you > > have offered in your criticism. Not one yota of evidence to > > suggest that this article was justified, or that the review given > > by the poster was justified in its tabloid treatment of an > > unfortunate incident. > Ed...I'm not clear on your comment here, are you suggesting the > article reporting the incident is not genuine? I am not surprised. You have already shown to have an apparent comprehension deficit. The article made no mention of "murderous meteorites". That was left to the ufological wisdom of "UFORESEARCH", the original poster of the article. I will repeat myself since you are obviously in need of special attention. That ufological editorializing to a higher level of tabloid journalism is what I addressed and you have failed to grasp. > Did this incident happen? Maybe what you need to do is to have you and your ilk round-up a vigilante posse and go catch those "murderous meteorite" varmints and bring them to justice. > I did not write my response to you in a critical manner... No, just irrelevantly. I asked for evidence. You snipped that part of my response and chose to linger with the tabloid aspects of the original post. > I also > questioned your assertions of illicit motives by those involved > with the investigation. And I never addressed motivation in the first place, but did point out the tabloid aspects of the post. Your insertion of a strawman argument and a redhering just shows that you also need some special assistance in learning how to construct logical arguments. If the difference is beyond your comprehension, go back to school and this time try to learn something. Ed Stewart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart egs@netcom.com | So Man, who here seems principal alone, There is Something | Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) | 'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. --------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: Brasilia's Letter From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 07:24:25 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:12:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter >Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:22:49 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Brasilia's Letter >I just wanted to add that I too was a bit disappointed to see >that Budd Hopkins and Dave Jacobs had put their names to a >document that contains so much pure speculation. I also have >respect for AJ and I'm just as surprized at his involvement. >John Velez John, Why not ask Budd why he signed? Perhaps it is just a case of the "high" that often goes around at conferences and makes people say things and do things the would not otherwise consider. Perhaps it is a case of thinking that almost any action is better than no action at all. Ultimately, I don't think anyone really believes that this letter will have any effect on the Brazilian government. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: ACC Seeking Independent Investigation From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 07:25:44 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:13:53 -0500 Subject: Re: ACC Seeking Independent Investigation >Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:05:13 -0700 >To: "UFO Sky Searchers International" <deeaob@sherman.midplains.net> >From: Jilain <jilain@rt66.com> [Jilain Jones] >Subject: ACC Seeking Independent Investigation >ACC Seeking Independent Investigation >Lan Lamphere, Director of the newly formed Nexxus Organization, >has been in contact today with Jack Shulman, President of the >American Computer Company. Mr. Shulman has requested that Nexxus >undertake an impartial investigation of the material in ACC's >possession that led to their recent announcements regarding the >origin of their transcapacitor technology. While talks are still >pending on the details of this requested analysis, Mr. Lamphere >has confirmed that ACC did approach Nexxus about working in a >consulting capacity to do an independent study of the material. >As per the standards of the Nexxus organization, it was made >clear to Mr. Shulman that any information gleaned from such an >investigation would be made public, with nothing withheld. In >preliminary discussions, Mr. Shulman agreed to this stipulation >on the part of Nexxus. >The Nexxus Organization is rapidly forming into a notable >research and investigative team, drawing together scientists and >ufologists from around the world for the purpose of scientific, >in-depth study of any and all aspects of the UFO phenomenon. >Information on the Nexxus group, its ever-increasing list of >participants, the group's mission statement, and directions on >how anyone can become a member of this organization can be found >at the Nexxus webpage: Pardon me if I am just a bit suspicious after reading this. Lamphere is, after all, the tornado chaser who supposedly caught a UFO on video when it passed through a storm his team was chasing. He claimed no interest in UFOs when this material first was posted on the net. Now, a few months later, he is Director of Nexxus and involving himself in the ACC affair. This just sounds too pat, too convenient, to me. The headline implies that ACC initiated this contact, but the first sentence is very vague on that point. Just who contacted whom? It reads like journalistic doublespeak to me. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:19:45 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:16:21 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:05:47 -0700 > From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) > To: Updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > > > From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> > > Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:05:35 +0100 (MET) > > Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:15:10 -0500 > > Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > > > >Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:00:57 -0800 > > >From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) > > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso No, Jared, you don't get off that easily! Maybe, just maybe, Henny inferred too much from your post. You sure as soap did not get up and try to correct the situation. There was not connection between ACC and FUFOR, all that you had was one board members opinion. You know the people called Americans? They have two opinions a day on everything. After Henny started off, you could not step forward and said something? You waited until now. Then, you call me up and say if I have any evidence that refute Corso, I should post it. I could spend all my time knocking down screwball posting. That would assure that no UFO research got done. I have a better receipe for you: Stop rumor mongering! There are enough people doing that already. When something you said gets out of hand, step up, and take some responsibility, and make the necessary corrections. Jan Aldrich
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:54:02 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:30:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... >From: Ufojoe1 <Ufojoe1@aol.com> [Joe Murgia] >Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:09:35 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... >>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 03:05:57 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Corso, ACC, Greer etc... >>>I read posts from April this year where people were complaining >?>about Steven Greer's personality and the way he went about >>>getting his contacts in Washington. Huh? Who the hell cares! If >>>he is successful getting the open hearings, will people on this >>list still complain that he was mean and played "their" game to >>>do it? I don't understand this logic. I thought getting the >>truth out in the open was the most important thing here. It >>>sounds like ego comes first with a lot of people. >>Joe, I was one of the people who got on Greers case last april. >>My reasons were based on several important points and issues >>-none of which- have ever been addressed or answered. <snip> >>I could go on Joe but all this is "old territory" we been dere >>and done dat already. Greer has no credibilty with me and great >>many others. You didn't go back far enough in the archive to see >>e-mails from Greer and his side kick mizz Adamiak spitting venom >>and making false accusations while at the same time trying to >>scam a lousy video out of some Scotsmen! You really ought to pick >>your "hero's" a little more carefully. This guy is not a shining >>example. >Hero, who said hero? I don't have to like Greer to applaud his >results. I guess time will tell if he is making headway or not. I >know that my local Congressman is deciding what to do with >Greer's information as I write these words. This may be old t>erritory for most but I think it is still one of the most important things going on in Ufology today. I will go back and >read the archive. In the meantime, I respect everybody's opinion >but still believe that Greer will be in the spotlight until this >thing breaks open. Just my opinion. >>>Keep it up Dr. Greer! >>That- has been the problem Joe. >>Over and out! >>John Velez >John, who else has presented such topics to people on Capitol >Hill? I would like to read about them too. I'm sure there are >others. Let me know. >Joe Murgia Dear Joe, I conducted a briefing in the old Senate office building in July, 1987. This briefing was arranged by FUFOR to occur coincident with the MUFON Symposium held in Washington, DC at that time. This was the "40th aniversary of UFOs" and we wore lapel pins that said "40 years is long enough." (I guess we were wrong.... 40 years wasn't long enough. Oh, well...) I and several other FUFOR members spoke for well over an hour (I don't recall exactly how long) to about 50 people, most of whom were congressional aides. We were able to d this in a government building because we had "connections" that had been built up over years. The net result of that briefing was.... interest by some people but NO ACTIVITY to speak of. Congresspersons (politically correct!), Senators have important things to do...like worry about the next election...and they won't do anything which could jeopardize their stature/standing/credibility in their home districts. Most of them won't take on any potentially "hazardous" (from the poin of view) project unless it is politically necessary. The only way to make a UFO project politically necessary is to stir up interest in the district of a Congressperson. Get people to write zillions of letters and you will get action! Congressman Steven Schiff of New Mexico was able to get actively involved in the Roswell investigation because many of his constituents live in Roswell. Nevertheless, he did not characterize his activity as a search for flying saucers or aliens. He characterized it as a search for the truth about an odd incident (in 1947) about which his constituents were very interested The General Accounting Office (GAO) did not go looking for aliens. The GAO wanted to find out if the Air Force had maintained records of the crash of whatever it was (they found all records missing). So the bottom line is that Greer has regenerated some interest in the political world but UFOs are such a "hot potato" that you can expect to see NO overt activity for a while (if ever) as a result of his activities. (You want to help? Start a letter writing campaing to your own Senator(s)/Congressperson(s) )
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:32:33 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:24:16 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:05:35 +0100 (MET) > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:00:57 -0800 > >From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:07:17 +0100 (MET) > >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >> From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> > >> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso What an absolutely remarkable post from the man who was beating up Rebecca just a few short days ago about "responsible ufology!" > >> >I've read all of the ACC material on the "net", and you must have > >> >some document that I've failed to notice. May I ask what you > >> >perceive FUFOR's involvement to be in this matter? Beyond that, > >> >can you explain where you get the impression that the USAF has > >> >"acknowledged" any of ACCs claims? > >> FUFOR has arranged witnesses for the meeting with ACC and the > >> USAF near Princeton University. > >> USAF confirmed at this meeting their estimate that the transistor > >> technology was from a military project on the basis of the > >> provided evidence, notes and witnesses. FUFOR confirms that the > >> meeting took place. > >[snip] > Jan Aldrich said: > >Henny, if by FUFOR you mean Funny UFO Rogues than maybe the above > >happened. If you are mean the Fund for UFO Research, I have just > >talked to Richard Hall, the current Chairman, and Don Berliner, > >the incoming Chairman. They completely deny an affiliation, > >meeting or contact with you, ACC, Ed Wang or any contact with the > >Air Force on this subject. > >Hall said you should contact him at 301-779-8683. He will want > >a full retraction from you. > >My question to you is: Who gave you this information? Who did > >you check with to see if it was true? Certainly not anyone from > >FUFOR. Seems to me you ought to be more careful in future! > >Jan Aldrich > Jan, > The information came from my memory. That is very responsible, Henny. Don't check your facts! >I remembered Jared > Anderson saying as much on this list. However, my memory > was not entirely accurate, because Jared had said he had > this information from one member of the FUFOR board. Full > post by Jared dug up from the archives is included below > my message. You could have gone to FUFOR and confirmed instead of relying on you alleged faulty memory. How responsible, Henny! > So, if 'one member of the FUFOR board' is not entitled > to release such statements, then that is news to me. On > second thought, being familiar with the UFO community, > the confusion does not surprise me. Nowhere in Jared's post does he say or imply that the board member speaks for FUFOR. Did you check with Jared to find if that were so? How responsible, Henny. > So I retract that: 'FUFOR acknowledged that the meeting took > place' and you can convey that to Richard Hall. But I maintain > that 'Jared Anderson says he knows a FUFOR board member who > can confirm the meeting took place'. Well, that is a start towards responsibility, Henny. What about all the jerks that carried away your revelations to the other lists and the newsgroups? You have with your earlier irresponsibility assured that this rumor will go on and on. Would it not be better in the very beginning to get your facts straight? > To clear this matter up, I just had a lengthy conversation > with Jack Shulman before I read your post, Jan, and he says > that he does not remember anybody from FUFOR. Oh, there's a handy fellow to go run to. And you could not have asked him about FUFOR's involvement earlier? >Having spent a > goddamn fortune on this international call - the man is virtually > uninterruptable - I will not call Richard Hall. I hope you > understand. You don't need to call him, Henny, just open the window. You'll hear what he thinks of you and your responsible ufology! > Jack had other things to say as well and I hope to get > to that later. About giving evidence that the meeting took > place, he says he doesn't care and that he is not in the > business of dealing with e-mail lists anyway. This is about the biggest talltale of the decade. Jack has his minions real and fictious posting non-stop to the newsgroups and e-mails lists. > His hope is to > force the US Air Force to change their stance on the release > of data about the UFO phenomenon by lawsuit or by other means. > He expects to be treated as a liar and a nut. Henny, you may not understand the legal system in the United States. You can go into court and put in a lawsuit about anything. That does not mean that it has any standing. You can only sue the governing bodies in certain narrow cases. Old Schulman has not established that he has any grounds for a suit. Another words he is just spouting hype to reload the marks. > For now, I am interested in who Jared Anderson meant when > he said 'Board member of FUFOR'. Then, why didn't you practice the responsible ufology you were jumping up and down about just a few days ago? Simply go and ask Jared what all this meant. Now read Jared's post again, Henny! Where in Jared's post go you find your contention? "FUFOR has arranged witnesses for the meeting with ACC and the USAF near Princeton University." That is your statement, Henny. Not Jared. Not Schluman's. > -begin Post Jared- > Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? > From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) > Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:20:08 -0700 > Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:39:22 -0500 > Subject: Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? > > From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> > > Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:12:39 -0600 (CST) > > Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:14:47 -0500 > > Subject: Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? > > In my opinion, too. In the meantime, can you spell publicity ploy > > to sell computers? I didn't think so. > This is conjecture Dennis. > After looking into this business with ACC directly I came out of > it real dubious about what is actually going in Jack Shulman's > mind and his zealous dedication to the "alien transistor" theory. > After my discussions with the man there is no question in my mind > that he is convinced that what he is doing is grounded in > reality, far fetched as it may be. Shulman probably understands > that he is alone in this process and should not expect any > assistance from the UFO community as this crusade is truly his > own. > People like Ed Wang and Bob Wolf have done nothing but drag > Shulman into discredit with their wild conspiratorial claims, > some of which ended up in my e-mail box. > A member of the FUFOR board confirmed to me directly that > Shulman's meeting with members of the DOD, Air Force, lawyers and > security personnel at Princeton did in fact take place. > After spending years in the computer industry I can think of no > better way to injure a computer company's reputation and threaten > it's future beyond what ACC has done here. I do not believe > Shulman did this as a marketing ploy. > but even so, I don't think this whole alien transistor circus > will ever amount to anything. > Jared. > -end post Jared- All that I can say, Henny, for someone how advocates "responsible ufology" you have fallen far short of the mark yourself. While you were ranting at Rebecca to disprove the stories you had swallowed whole, Birnes is on this list or trolls the archives. I have a communication from him about one of my posts here. He could have easily piped up. It is up to the person that make the claim to provide the proof and the evidence. It is not up to any of us to disprove anything, especially irresponisble statements made here! Jan Aldrich Search for other documents from or mentioning: jan | hvdp | jared |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: UFO Research and Mapping Tool From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:54:42 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:33:15 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Research and Mapping Tool >Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:57:53 -0600 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: joel henry <jhenry@wavefront.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Research and Mapping Tool >>Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 00:48:50 -0500 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>Subject: UFO UpDate: UFO Research and Mapping Tool >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> <snip> >>To my knowledge, The most comprehensive and complete sightings >>database ever recordered on computer has been created by a >>software developer named Larry Hatch. It's a DOS program that >>maps the world and lists a record of sightings by year. It's >>catalog goes all the way back to Ezechial's sighting and contains >>sporadic sightings throughout the centuries but starts becoming >>dense around the 1700's. Actual recordings of waves don't really <snip> >>his own sighting data. Larry has put a lot of sleepless nights >>into this project and his support is ongoing. >>The program is called the UFO Research and Mapping Tool >>If interested information can be found at: >>larryhat@jps.net >>No doubt about it....Hatch has a corner on the UFO data base >>"market." You absolutely will not believe what his program can >>do. Imagine being able to display 14,000 (or whatever the number >>is now) sighitngs at their locations all over the globe or in >>flat projection maps. Statistics? He's got 'em. I used it to >>disprove the CIA's claim that "over 50 percent of UFOs after 1955 >>were sighitng of the U-2" (remember that last summer?) I used >>Hatch's program to isolate the years 1955-1960 or so and the time >>periods 0400-0800 and 1600-2000, when the U=2 would be most >l>ikely seen. >No doubt Mr. Hatches' database is good but 14000 sightings isn't >that many. The combined resources of MUFON, FUFOR, CUFOS, and The >older defunct org's would total well over 100,000 possibly >200,000 sightings. He now has over 16,000 sightings (increased by 2000 since I got my most recent copy 1.5 years ago) >If you really want good data you need sheer #'s of reports, >otherwise, when you filter out what you aren't looking for, what >you have left is so small a number, your validity is poor. The >UUFORD (Universal UFO Report Database) is intended to combine all t>he reports available from all sources for the use of all >ufologists, investigators, etc.< I agree with the need for lots of sightings, but if they are not easily inaccessible or are poorly investigated, etc., then they are not very valuable. (I would never have been able to respond as I did to the CIA if I had had to read through the reports of 200,000 sightings by hand.) I also like the highly useable format of Hatch's data base, which allows for the addition of more sightings. It wouldn't be a bad idea for anyone who is really interested to buy the existing data base AND ADD IN THEIR OWN SIGHTINGS!!!! If lots of people did this, then a "central group" could combine data bases from the various researchers.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:41:35 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:56:10 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:05:35 +0100 (MET) > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:00:57 -0800 > >From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:07:17 +0100 (MET) > >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >> From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> > >> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso I have just noticed that I mistaken referred to Henny van der Pluijm as "Henry." This is incorrect. I apologize for my mistake. What an absolutely remarkable post from the man who was beating up Rebecca just a few short days ago about "responsible ufology!" > >> >I've read all of the ACC material on the "net", and you must have > >> >some document that I've failed to notice. May I ask what you > >> >perceive FUFOR's involvement to be in this matter? Beyond that, > >> >can you explain where you get the impression that the USAF has > >> >"acknowledged" any of ACCs claims? > >> FUFOR has arranged witnesses for the meeting with ACC and the > >> USAF near Princeton University. > >> USAF confirmed at this meeting their estimate that the transistor > >> technology was from a military project on the basis of the > >> provided evidence, notes and witnesses. FUFOR confirms that the > >> meeting took place. > >[snip] > Jan Aldrich said: > >Henry, if by FUFOR you mean Funny UFO Rogues than maybe the above > >happened. If you are mean the Fund for UFO Research, I have just > >talked to Richard Hall, the current Chairman, and Don Berliner, > >the incoming Chairman. They completely deny an affiliation, > >meeting or contact with you, ACC, Ed Wang or any contact with the > >Air Force on this subject. > >Hall said you should contact him at 301-779-8683. He will want > >a full retraction from you. > >My question to you is: Who gave you this information? Who did > >you check with to see if it was true? Certainly not anyone from > >FUFOR. Seems to me you ought to be more careful in future! > >Jan Aldrich > Jan, > The information came from my memory. That is very responsible, Henny. Don't check your facts! >I remembered Jared > Anderson saying as much on this list. However, my memory > was not entirely accurate, because Jared had said he had > this information from one member of the FUFOR board. Full > post by Jared dug up from the archives is included below > my message. You could have gone to FUFOR and confirmed instead of relying on you alleged faulty memory. How responsible, Henny! > So, if 'one member of the FUFOR board' is not entitled > to release such statements, then that is news to me. On > second thought, being familiar with the UFO community, > the confusion does not surprise me. Nowhere in Jared's post does he say or imply that the board member speaks for FUFOR. Did you check with Jared to find if that were so? How responsible, Henny. > So I retract that: 'FUFOR acknowledged that the meeting took > place' and you can convey that to Richard Hall. But I maintain > that 'Jared Anderson says he knows a FUFOR board member who > can confirm the meeting took place'. Well, that is a start towards responsibility, Henny. What about all the jerks that carried away your revelations to the other lists and the newsgroups? You have with your earlier irresponsibility assured that this rumor will go on and on. Would it not be better in the very beginning to get your facts straight? > To clear this matter up, I just had a lengthy conversation > with Jack Shulman before I read your post, Jan, and he says > that he does not remember anybody from FUFOR. Oh, there's a handy fellow to go run to. And you could not have asked him about FUFOR's involvement earlier? >Having spent a > goddamn fortune on this international call - the man is virtually > uninterruptable - I will not call Richard Hall. I hope you > understand. You don't need to call him, Henny, just open the window. You'll hear what he thinks of you and your responsible ufology! > Jack had other things to say as well and I hope to get > to that later. About giving evidence that the meeting took > place, he says he doesn't care and that he is not in the > business of dealing with e-mail lists anyway. This is about the biggest talltale of the decade. Jack has his minions real and fictious posting non-stop to the newsgroups and e-mails lists. >His hope is to > force the US Air Force to change their stance on the release > of data about the UFO phenomenon by lawsuit or by other means. > He expects to be treated as a liar and a nut. Henry, you may not understand the legal system in the United States. You can go into court and put in a lawsuit about anything. That does not mean that it has any standing. You can only sue the governing bodies in certain narrow cases. Old Schulman has not established that he has any grounds for a suit. Another words he is just spouting hype to reload the marks. > For now, I am interested in who Jared Anderson meant when > he said 'Board member of FUFOR'. Then, why didn't you practice the responsible ufology you were jumping up and down about just a few days ago? Simply go and ask Jared what all this meant. Now read Jared's post again, Henny! Where in Jared's post go you find your contention? "FUFOR has arranged witnesses for the meeting with ACC and the USAF near Princeton University." That is your statement, Henny. Not Jared. Not Schluman's. > -begin Post Jared- > Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? > From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) > Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:20:08 -0700 > Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:39:22 -0500 > Subject: Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? > > From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> > > Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:12:39 -0600 (CST) > > Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:14:47 -0500 > > Subject: Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? > > In my opinion, too. In the meantime, can you spell publicity ploy > > to sell computers? I didn't think so. > This is conjecture Dennis. > After looking into this business with ACC directly I came out of > it real dubious about what is actually going in Jack Shulman's > mind and his zealous dedication to the "alien transistor" theory. > After my discussions with the man there is no question in my mind > that he is convinced that what he is doing is grounded in > reality, far fetched as it may be. Shulman probably understands > that he is alone in this process and should not expect any > assistance from the UFO community as this crusade is truly his > own. > People like Ed Wang and Bob Wolf have done nothing but drag > Shulman into discredit with their wild conspiratorial claims, > some of which ended up in my e-mail box. > A member of the FUFOR board confirmed to me directly that > Shulman's meeting with members of the DOD, Air Force, lawyers and > security personnel at Princeton did in fact take place. > After spending years in the computer industry I can think of no > better way to injure a computer company's reputation and threaten > it's future beyond what ACC has done here. I do not believe > Shulman did this as a marketing ploy. > but even so, I don't think this whole alien transistor circus > will ever amount to anything. > Jared. > -end post Jared- All that I can say, Henny, for someone how advocates "responsible ufology" you have fallen far short of the mark yourself. While you were ranting at Rebecca to disprove the stories you had swallowed whole, Birnes is on this list or trolls the archives. I have a communication from him about one of my posts here. He could have easily piped up. It is up to the person that make the claim to provide the proof and the evidence. It is not up to any of us to disprove anything, especially irresponisble statements made here! Jan Aldrich Search for other documents from or mentioning: jan | hvdp | jared |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: The FUFOR Factor? From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:00:25 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 19:03:49 -0500 Subject: Re: The FUFOR Factor? > From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Leith] > Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:52:27 EST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: The FUFOR Factor??? > From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) > Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:00:57 -0800 > Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:35:15 -0500 > Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >My question to you is: Who gave you this information? Who did > >you check with to see if it was true? Certainly not anyone from > >FUFOR. Seems to me you ought to be more careful in future! > I refer you to: > http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1997/dec/m15-017.shtml > where you will find this: > From:jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) > Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:20:08 -0700 > Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:39:22 -0500 > Subject: Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? > [Snipped all but FUFOR reference -Rebecca] > "A member of the FUFOR board confirmed to me directly that > Shulman's meeting with members of the DOD, Air Force, lawyers and > security personnel at Princeton did in fact take place." > [end quote] > Henny latched on to that and hasn't let us hear the end of it. Yes, and then there was also a lot of expanding on it, too. Rebecca, you show more courage than the rest of us in confronting fuzzy thinking, rumor mongering, and outright charlatanism. I admire you willingness to stand up to this madness and gladly suffer the slings and snide comments from the gullible, uncritical, wide eyed believers. Your example may lead others to demand higher standards in ufology, also. Best regards, -- Jan Aldrich
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 InfoHead's UFO Christmas ;^> From: Glenn Joyner <infohead@airmail.net> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:06:50 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 19:10:21 -0500 Subject: InfoHead's UFO Christmas ;^> A FLYING SAUCER CHRISTMAS Copyright 1997 by Glenn Joyner -- infohead@airmail.net It's not Santa Claus and reindeer, It's not Sputnik, it's not MIR. It's not the moon, or a flying spoon, What it is ain't exactly clear. Could these be Santa's helpers? With grey heads smooth as a ball. They look like elves, and dress themselves In one-piece coveralls. It doesn't show up on radar, But, Bubba, it's up there. Don't you know, it's a UFO, Don't soil your underwear. They're not from Uranus, And they're not from the mall... Not from a black hole, or the North Pole, Are they from anywhere at all? Have a flying saucer Christmas, `Cos it's just that time of year. With flashing strobes and anal probes, The aliens are here! Have a flying saucer Christmas, There's no reason why you can't. Decorate the tree, and laugh with glee, Mistletoe on my implant. I'm not drunk on eggnog, My deck isn't missing a card, But I saw it there, up in the air, And it landed in my yard. They abducted my old grandpa, And took our Christmas wreath, He put up a fuss, they brought back the old cuss, But I guess they kept his teeth. They don't leave us any presents, And don't ride on Santa's sleigh, In the dark of night, they visit all right, But bring us back by Christmas day. They're only seeking answers, So please make no mistake. I know it's true, because before they flew They took core samples of the fruit cake. Have a flying saucer Christmas, `Cos it's just that time of year. With flashing strobes and anal probes, The aliens are here! Have a flying saucer Christmas, There's no reason why you can't. Decorate the tree, and laugh with glee, Mistletoe on my implant.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: Kal Korff's UFO Sighting From: TotlResrch <TotlResrch@aol.com> [Kal K. Korff] Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:50:44 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:06:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Kal Korff's UFO Sighting >From: "Keith Woodard" <qwoodard@worldnet.att.net> >To: "UFO Updates" <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: NUFORC Reports on the US Northwest Mass >Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:31:20 -0800 >You seem awfully sure of yourself on this Seattle business, Kal. >Maybe you could clear something up for me. I've heard that the >official story explains the absence of ground debris by having it >sink into the ocean. Why does nearly every sighting report it >streaking from West to East? Keith, I KNOW what I saw. Also, a close friend of mine was in Missouri at the time (near St. Louis) and INDEPENDENT of these observations also saw the same thing and for what it's worth he said it looked to him "like space junk." He had not even heard ANY of the press reports and this person is in the aviation field and has a real sharp eye and saw the "UFOs" from a very powerful set of binoculars.. My point on this subject is this: For those reports where the "UFOs" were seen at the precise moments, proper angles and times as this space debris re- entered the atmosphere, it is very likely a safe bet to say that it WAS space debris. However, I am NOT saying that EVERYTHING seen that night is or was due to space debris. After all, it didn't take all night for this stuff to fall back to Earth and not having those other "UFO" reports to study I am in no position to comment. Since MOST "UFO" reports go UNREPORTED, who knows what else might have been seen at other times that night. I doubt any of them were from the Pleiades, though. :-) Also, I hope I made it clear that a troubling trend in ufology nowadays is to resort to an ET "explanation" FIRST, rather than be more restrained and scientifically objective. This is unfortunate. Look how people (even Ufologists) have swallowed Corso's garbage without a shred of proof. I can't wait til Corso gets exposed in less than 30 days. Those bozos who supported him without any good or decent reason in the UFO field will have egg on their collective faces and rightly so. Personally, I hope Mantle invites Corso because considering the company Mantle keeps it is par for Philip's course. >BTW, I assume my email was only one of many requests for >clarification on your very intriguing 1981 sighting. Any chance >you could post more details? >Kind regards, >Keith Keith, I'd be HAPPY to answer any questions about my UFO sighting. Feel free to ask away!! As usual, every time I pose to this forum I get inundated with way more mail than even I can ever respond to (and I am never short on words, believe me), but I do have some time until December 24th, so please "ask away" and I will do my best to answer any questions you and others may have. I am also going to try and post as much as I can to this forum while I have some time before getting snowed under again for a couple of months. Best always, Kal (never enough hours in a day) Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: CORSO From: TotlResrch <TotlResrch@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 03:04:43 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:11:17 -0500 Subject: Re: CORSO In a message Philip Mantle wrote to Rebecca Keith: >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:38:22 +0000 >From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: CORSO >Whether I agree with Corso or not remains to be seen, but as a >socialist I will defend his right to be heard and for those >listening to decide whether or not they believe him. Philip: Do you mean to HONESTLY tell us that you have NO OPINION on the authenticity of Corso's claims?? Come on, Philip!! As co-author or a Roswell book, HOW can you ETHICALLY have "no opinion"?? OK, Mr. Mantle, just WHAT IS YOUR OPINION(S) about Corso? Do you endorse his claims about Roswell or not? This is a yes or no question. Do you ALSO endorse his claims about his military career? Finally, have you done ANY firsthand investigation into Corso and IF so, WHAT did it consist of?? I think everyone on this forum would really like to know, so please articulate your responses in detail for us. The issue here, Philip, is NOT to censor people at UFO conferences, as you stated, but rather, WHY invite someone whose claims can be and have been PROVEN to be BOLDFACED LIES?? I hate to use such strong language, Philip, but originally I thought Corso was just old, demented and senile. Now it has been established that he has just blatantly confabulated his Roswell claims AND his various accounts of his "career," and the forthcoming "Day After Dallas" book that he and Birnes are preparing to scam the people with is a despicable insult to the American people and a tragic travesty that exploits and plays on the emotions surrounding the assassination of President JFK. Merry Christmas to you, Philip. May the Grinch steal Corso's Christmas, though, and may Robin Hood descend upon his house and return some of the money he has "earned" by scamming people in his book. Do you mean to HONESTLY tell us that you have NO OPINION on the authenticity of Corso's claims?? Come on, Philip!! As co-author or a Roswell book, HOW can you ETHICALLY have "no opinion"?? OK, Mr. Mantle, just WHAT IS YOUR OPINION(S) about Corso? Do you endorse his claims about Roswell or not? This is a yes or no question. Do you ALSO endorse his claims about his military career? Finally, have you done ANY firsthand investigation into Corso and IF so, WHAT did it consist of?? I think everyone on this forum would really like to know, so please articulate your responses in detail for us. The issue here, Philip, is NOT to censor people at UFO conferences, as you stated, but rather, WHY invite someone whose claims can be and have been PROVEN to be BOLDFACED LIES?? I hate to use such strong language, Philip, but originally I thought Corso was just old, demented and senile. Now it has been established that he has just blatantly confabulated his Roswell claims AND his various accounts of his "career," and the forthcoming "Day After Dallas" book that he and Birnes are preparing to scam the people with is a despicable insult to the American people and a tragic travesty that exploits and plays on the emotions surrounding the assassination of President JFK. Merry Christmas to you, Philip. May the Grinch steal Corso's Christmas, though, and may Robin Hood descend upon his house and return some of the money he has "earned" by scamming people in his book. Kal Korff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Sect Awaits 'His' Arrival In Dallas From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 02:44:49 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:17:46 -0500 Subject: Sect Awaits 'His' Arrival In Dallas Found at the site of the Nando Times. URL: http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/nation/122397/nation30_14191_noframes. html Spiritual sect waits for God in Texas Copyright =A91997 Nando.net Copyright =A91997 Reuters GARLAND, Texas (December 23, 1997 5:36 p.m. EST http://www.nando.net) - A Taiwanese spiritual sect has moved into a working-class neighborhood in this north Dallas suburb to await God's arrival here in March 1998, the group's leader said Tuesday. Hoh-Ming Chen, who led about 150 followers, including more than 30 children here from Taiwan, said Tuesday God would be reincarnated as man on March 31 at precisely 10 a.m. local time/11 a.m at his modest house on Ridgedale Drive. However, contrary to news reports in Taiwan, the group does not plan to stage a mass suicide if God fails to show, said Yu-Cheng Lo, deputy director general of the Taipei Economic and Cultural Office in Houston, who visited leaders and other members of the group last week. "There's no reason to be concerned that they would commit suicide," Lo told Reuters. "They have return (airplane) tickets home." Newspapers in Taiwan last week reported that the group would stage a mass suicide in Texas. Those concerns were heightened when the group's name was translated into English as "God Save the Flying Saucers," conjuring images of the Heaven's Gate cult's mass suicide in San Diego last March. In his first news conference since arriving in Garland, Chen said God's arrival would be preceded by turbulent weather, heavenly writings in the skies and sightings of aircraft moving at miraculous speeds. An advertisement would be broadcast on local television six days before God's arrival, Chen said, speaking in Chinese through an interpreter. "If you turn on your television and switch your channel to channel 18, you will see God making the advertisement that he is coming into the world," Chen said. "It is advertised by God himself." Chen preaches a mix of Christianity and Buddhism, but most of his followers do not have strong religious beliefs, Lo said. The group, which includes an engineer, doctors and several teachers, believes a disaster will strike Taiwan next year and the earth will come to an end before the end of the century unless God intervenes, he said. The group's arrival intrigued local residents in Garland, where the group bought up 20 homes and hoped to attract a million people to be touched by the hands of God in March. But Mayor James Ratliff said he was too busy dealing with a sewer plant failure over the weekend to keep close tabs on the group's activities. "The first thing we know from scripture is no man knows the time the Lord is going to return," he said. "Our police department has been put aware and we don't want them to endanger anyone, including themselves." By HARIHAR KRISHNAN, Reuters Copyright =A91997 Nando.net Do you have some feedback for the Nando Times staff?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Now, _This_ Is Science! From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:02:52 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:02:52 -0500 Subject: Now, _This_ Is Science! And A Merry Season To All! from Sue & I ebk ________________________________________________________________ As a result of an overwhelming lack of requests, and with research help from that renowned scientific journal SPY Magazine (January, 1990) - I am pleased to present a scientific inquiry into Santa Claus. 1) No known species of reindeer can fly. BUT there are 300,000 species of living organisms yet to be classified, and while most of these are insects and germs, this does not COMPLETELY rule out flying reindeer which only Santa has ever seen. 2) There are 2 billion children (persons under 18) in the world. BUT since Santa doesn't (appear) to handle the Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Buddhist children, that reduces the workload to 15% of the total - 378 million according to Population Reference Bureau. At an average (census) rate of 3.5 children per household, that's 91.8 million homes. One presumes there's at least one good child in each. 3) Santa has 31 hours of Christmas to work with, thanks to the different time zones and the rotation of the earth, assuming he travels east to west (which seems logical). This works out to 822.6 visits per second. This is to say that for each Christian household with good children, Santa has 1/1000th of a second to park, hop out of the sleigh, jump down the chimney, fill the stockings, distribute the remaining presents under the tree, eat whatever snacks have been left, get back up the chimney, get back into the sleigh and move on to the next house. Assuming that each of the 91.8 million stops are evenly distributed around the earth (which, of course, we know to be false but for the purposes of our calculations we will accept), we are now talking about .78 miles per household, a total trip of 75 1/2 million miles, not counting stops to do what most of us must do at least once every 31 hours, plus feeding and etc. This means that Santa's sleigh is moving at 650 miles per second, 3,000 times the speed of sound. For purposes of comparison, the fastest man- made vehicle on earth, the Ulysses space probe, moves at a poky 27.4 miles per second - a conventional reindeer can run, tops, 15 miles per hour. 4) The payload on the sleigh adds another interesting element. Assuming that each child gets nothing more than a medium-sized lego set (2 pounds), the sleigh is carrying 321,300 tons, not counting Santa, who is invariably described as overweight. On land, conventional reindeer can pull no more than 300 pounds. Even granting that "flying reindeer" (see point #1) could pull TEN TIMES the normal amount, we cannot do the job with eight, or even nine. We need 214,200 reindeer. This increases the payload - not even counting the weight of the sleigh - to 353,430 tons. Again for comparison - this is four times the weight of the Queen Elizabeth. 5) 353,000 tons travelling at 650 miles per second creates enormous air resistance - this will heat the reindeer up in the same fashion as spacecraft re-entering the earth's atmosphere. The lead pair of reindeer will absorb 14.3 QUINTILLION joules of energy, per second, each. In short they will burst into flame almost instantaneously, exposing the reindeer behind them, and create deafening sonic booms in their wake. The entire reindeer team will be vaporized within 4.26 thousandths of a second. Santa, meanwhile, will be subjected to centrifugal forces 175,000.06 times greater than gravity. A 250 pound Santa (which seems ludicrously slim) would be pinned to the back of his sleigh by 4,315,015 pounds of force. In Conclusion - If Santa ever DID deliver presents on Christmas Eve, he's dead now.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 BWW Media Alert 971223 From: BufoCalvin <BufoCalvin@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 19:27:47 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:08:57 -0500 Subject: BWW Media Alert 971223 Bufo Calvin P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com Website: <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin">http://members.aol.com/bufo calvin<;/a> ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made to http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with strangers before you e-mail them something. If you forward this, please make sure it is clear that you are forwarding it). December 23, 1997 Hey, gang! Had some problems with the new server being generously provided by my secret benefactor. Not SB's fault, of course, and now it's all resolved. It meant that some things I sent didn't get delivered. I do have a couple of notes on this week: SIGHTINGS ON THE RADIO: This is a great program, connected to the TV show. It's hosted by Jeff Rense. For details on stations, etc., go to http://www.sightings.com. It can also be heard live or in archive through that site. Tuesday, Bruce Campbell Adamson: Geneologist On Fayed, Diana, and JFK LIVE FROM CANADA: Bill Oliver And UFO*BC Report Wednesday, Michael Lindemann: Weekly UFO/ET Update Pending Thursday, Brad Steiger: A Paranormal Look At Christmas Spirit Frances Fontaine: A Remarkable ET Visitation Friday, Ralph Barrera: LAPD Cop Under Pressure For UFO/ET Views Pending STRANGE UNIVERSE: Nationally syndicated paranormal magazine show. Go to http://www.strangeuniverse.com. December 23, 1997 Encore presentation of Strange Universe Episode #2017 Jerusalem Syndrome Take a trip to the Holy Land, where tourists find themselves struck by a common delusion that they are religious prophets. Dirt Eaters A woman who practices the ancient tradition of dirt eating. Joan Van Ark/Joan of Ark The actress reveals that she believes she was Joan of Ark in a former life. Pan Pagan Festival In the heart of the Midwest, a gathering of pagans that looks amazingly ordinary. <Picture: line><Picture: wed>December 24, 1997 Encore presentation of Strange Universe Episode #2018 Devil's Tower The site of the alien landing in the movie Close Encounters is now the site of a heated controversy. TWA Angel The town hit hardest by the TWA Flight 800 disaster may be touched by angels. Oregon Dowsers A convention of dowsers, where people are learning more than just how to find water. Samuel L. Jackson and the Paranormal The Pulp Fiction star tells about his UFO experience. <Picture: line><Picture: thurs>December 25, 1997 Encore presentation of Strange Universe Episode #2019 Hudson Valley UFO's Journey to the terrain where the legend of the Headless Horseman was born...and where locals say there's something just as mysterious traveling in the skies. Time Traveler A man who rides up and down the California Coast, seemingly defying time and space. Middlesboro Homecoming A Kentucky church where handling snakes and fire is just part of keeping the faith. Kevin Sorbo TV's Hercules tells about the strangest thing that ever happened to him. <Picture: line><Picture: fri>December 26, 1997 Encore presentation of Strange Universe Episode #2020 Maitreya A religious leader who some call the messiah...but others say he's a false prophet. UFO Hoaxers See the amazing entries in a contest for the best faked UFO photo. Pet Detective Forget Ace Ventura - a real-life pet detective who says she can talk to and find lost animals. Tia Carrera Tia Carrera tells why she doesn't think we're alone in the universe. THE HISTORY CHANNEL History Undercover Thursday, January 1, 1998 - 7:00 PM - HISTRY (also 11:00 PM) PROGRAM: Documentary (60 Minutes) "Roswell: An Alien Obsession". The debate over a possible UFO crash in 1947 Roswell, N.M. Try to do more later...this is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that would be weird!" ____________________________ You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com. You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, t he week before. _____________________________ **OPUS is the Organization for Paranormal Understanding and Support. I am an Executive Boardmember, and Director of the OPUS Educational Institute. OPUS encourages its officers and Network Associates to express their own opinions: however, it is important to note that I do not speak for OPUS in this piece or others presented under my own name. ______________________________ <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/weirdware/books.html">Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Books</ A> I'm very excited about this! Some of you know, I ran a bookstore for years, and it has always been a love of mine. I get asked often to recommend books(I do write reviews for several publications) on these topics, and now I can do it and actually give you a source for them at the same time! This is being done in association with Amazon.com, which has an outstanding reputation for the five "S"s of internet shopping: selection, searchability, service, savings, and security. If there is any specific book you want (or topic in which you are interested), let me know and I will do the research and e-mail you a link you can use to check it out more (and order it if you want). I will be linking to books within the Media Alert, to make it more efficient for you. If you click on the link, you will be sent to that title on Amazon. You do =not= have to buy it at that point! You may, but the option is yours.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 BWW Media Alert 971223 Supp From: BufoCalvin <BufoCalvin@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 19:52:49 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:09:40 -0500 Subject: BWW Media Alert 971223 Supp Bufo Calvin P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com Website: <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin">http://members.aol.com/bufo calvin<;/a> ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made to http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with strangers before you e-mail them something. If you forward this, please make sure it is clear that you are forwarding it). Here's the schedule for that ACTN documentary...heard some good things about it. UFOs: Above and Beyond Tuesday, December 23, 1997 - 3:30 PM - ACTN PROGRAM: Documentary (60 Minutes) Documentary on UFOs and aliens, hosted by James "Scotty" Doohan. Thursday, December 25, 1997 - 3:00 AM - ACTN Thursday, December 25, 1997 - 4:30 PM - ACTN Saturday, December 27, 1997 - 2:00 PM - ACTN Sunday, December 28, 1997 - 4:00 AM - ACTN Sunday, December 28, 1997 - 11:30 AM - ACTN Monday, December 29, 1997 - 4:30 PM - ACTN Tuesday, December 30, 1997 - 3:00 AM - ACTN Tuesday, December 30, 1997 - 8:30 AM - ACTN Tuesday, December 30, 1997 - 2:00 PM - ACTN Wednesday, December 31, 1997 - 3:00 PM - ACTN ____________________________ You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com. You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, t he week before. _____________________________ **OPUS is the Organization for Paranormal Understanding and Support. I am an Executive Boardmember, and Director of the OPUS Educational Institute. OPUS encourages its officers and Network Associates to express their own opinions: however, it is important to note that I do not speak for OPUS in this piece or others presented under my own name. ______________________________ <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/weirdware/books.html">Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Books</ A> I'm very excited about this! Some of you know, I ran a bookstore for years, and it has always been a love of mine. I get asked often to recommend books(I do write reviews for several publications) on these topics, and now I can do it and actually give you a source for them at the same time! This is being done in association with Amazon.com, which has an outstanding reputation for the five "S"s of internet shopping: selection, searchability, service, savings, and security. If there is any specific book you want (or topic in which you are interested), let me know and I will do the research and e-mail you a link you can use to check it out more (and order it if you want). I will be linking to books within the Media Alert, to make it more efficient for you. If you click on the link, you will be sent to that title on Amazon. You do =not= have to buy it at that point! You may, but the option is yours.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: Kal Korff's UFO Sighting From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:15:02 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:29:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Kal Korff's UFO Sighting > From: TotlResrch <TotlResrch@aol.com> [Kal K. Korff] > Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:50:44 EST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Kal Korff's UFO Sighting > I am also going to try and post as much as I can to this forum > while I have some time before getting snowed under again for a > couple of months. > Best always, > Kal (never enough hours in a day) Korff Kal: I hope that includes responding to some outstanding "promises" from about a year ago (I'm still waiting), and to many unanswered questions on this List to you earlier this year, just at the time you took a sabbatical from this List (see archives). John (always try to find at least a few minutes for everyone) Koopmans Search for other documents from or mentioning: john.koopmans |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 23 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 04:36:34 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:04:21 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:41:35 -0800 >From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO Update: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:05:35 +0100 (MET) >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >I have just noticed that I mistaken referred to Henny van >der Pluijm as "Henry." This is incorrect. I apologize for >my mistake. Fine, guess it came from your memory. Jan, You have really pissed me off and I am afraid you have asked for what is coming. >What an absolutely remarkable post from the man who was >beating up Rebecca just a few short days ago about >"responsible ufology!" Jan, I admit it when I am wrong and immediately, unlike some other people I know. When I hear 'FUFOR board member' that means to me 'FUFOR', so in that respect that was not a memory lapse. What was my mistake was to assume that one board member can speak for FUFOR. Apparently I was naive enough to assume that an organization like FUFOR was capable of supporting the ACC initiative by confirming that meeting. The truth is that confirmation came from one member by way of Jared and Jared maintains that. What is becoming clear to me now - and I hope the list sees that as well - is that this board member apparently doesn't dare to reveal his name. Apparently because he/she would be chastized, ostracized and hung up on the highest tree by his/her left big toe for having the guts to seemingly support an apparent succesful initiative by a party - ACC - that happens to be not part of the UFO establishment. >> The information came from my memory. >That is very responsible, Henny. Don't check your facts! Jan, this is a joke. Where were you all this time? I have mentioned 'FUFOR confirmed the meeting' a total of four or five times on this list. You see, some people have a hearing problem. Others, like you, seem to have a problem with their eyesight. You are on this list. You have posted dozens of messages. You have followed threads. You can read I assume. If this was so important to you then it was your call to speak up. >>I remembered Jared >> Anderson saying as much on this list. However, my memory >> was not entirely accurate, because Jared had said he had >> this information from one member of the FUFOR board. Full >> post by Jared dug up from the archives is included below >> my message. >You could have gone to FUFOR and confirmed instead of relying on >you alleged faulty memory. How responsible, Henny! This is insane. Where are these lists for in the first place? To exchange information or what? If Jared said words to that effect and nobody corrects him then I assume that it is true. If I have to get confirmed everything that is said on this list with everyone who concerns it I could spend my whole life confirming the posts of just one day. >> So, if 'one member of the FUFOR board' is not entitled >> to release such statements, then that is news to me. On >> second thought, being familiar with the UFO community, >> the confusion does not surprise me. >Nowhere in Jared's post does he say or imply that the board >member speaks for FUFOR. Did you check with Jared to find if >that were so? How responsible, Henny. And how would I know this? How should I know that board members of FUFOR are chastizes for a statement that they do without the knowledge of the full FUFOR board? How would I know that things are so bad that a FUFOR board member doesn't even dare to give his name for confirming that a meeting took place? I thought we were seeking the truth. What kind of goddamn politics is this, Jan? >> So I retract that: 'FUFOR acknowledged that the meeting took >> place' and you can convey that to Richard Hall. But I maintain >> that 'Jared Anderson says he knows a FUFOR board member who >> can confirm the meeting took place'. >Well, that is a start towards responsibility, Henny. What about >all the jerks that carried away your revelations to the other >lists and the newsgroups? You have with your earlier >irresponsibility assured that this rumor will go on and on. >Would it not be better in the very beginning to get your facts >straight? See above. And rumors are a problem when they are wrong. Jared Anderson maintains his statement and I have no reason to doubt him. >> To clear this matter up, I just had a lengthy conversation >> with Jack Shulman before I read your post, Jan, and he says >> that he does not remember anybody from FUFOR. >Oh, there's a handy fellow to go run to. And you could not >have asked him about FUFOR's involvement earlier? See above. Eyesight problem. >>Having spent a >> goddamn fortune on this international call - the man is virtually >> uninterruptable - I will not call Richard Hall. I hope you >> understand. >You don't need to call him, Henny, just open the window. You'll >hear what he thinks of you and your responsible ufology! Nice guy. Perhaps he can explain to me why this is so important. To me, it just says a lot about what you and he care about. When do you start to care about ending such a thing as a UFO cover up? >>His hope is to >> force the US Air Force to change their stance on the release >> of data about the UFO phenomenon by lawsuit or by other means. >> He expects to be treated as a liar and a nut. >Henry, you may not understand the legal system in the United >States. You can go into court and put in a lawsuit about >anything. That does not mean that it has any standing. You can >only sue the governing bodies in certain narrow cases. Old >Schulman has not established that he has any grounds for a suit. >Another words he is just spouting hype to reload the marks. Jan, the man can pay more lawyers than the entire UFO community. Please spare me your prejudice. >Now read Jared's post again, Henny! >Where in Jared's post go you find your contention? >"FUFOR has arranged witnesses for the meeting with ACC and the >USAF near Princeton University." >That is your statement, Henny. Not Jared. Not Schluman's. I am not in the habit of makings things up. Maybe I was wrong, maybe I was right. I read dozens of emails and web sites every day and I have a good memory for things that matter. Why does this matter anyway? A board member of FUFOR confirmed the meeting and ACC had witnesses, that's what matters here. Whether they came through FUFOR doesn't matter. Whether they came through MUFON doesn't matter. Whether they were dug up by ACC doesn't matter. Whether they came through the door, the window or the chimney doesn't matter. What matters is that someone is opening a dialogue with the US Air Force. You can jump up and down over what FUFOR member said what but in the end people will care as much about that as they care about how many rotten dead fish were swimming under the ice cap of the North Pole while Neil Armstrong took his first steps on the moon. Now let me turn here to the rest of the list. It seems to me that this was a wonderful opportunity to see some of the things that are wrong with Ufology. Why did hell break lose here? Because someone from FUFOR said something he was not allowed to say by other FUFOR board members. What was he not allowed to say? That ACC had a meeting with the USAF and DOD to show evidence of a technology seeding project that had to with stuff from Roswell. Why was he not allowed to say that? Because ACC is not part of the UFO establishment and has been damn succesful in something and they are not. It's sour grapes! Since I subscribed to this list I have seen many similar things. ORTK's Ed Komarek wanted support from businessmen. Reaction from the UFO establishment? Let him shut up! CSETI's Steven Greer presented a briefing in Washington DC, hoping to get open hearings. Reaction? Oh boy, he is doing so much damage. Damage to what? Lt. Col. Corso (ret. US Army) published and began to speak. Reaction? Stamp him into the ground. Now comes ACC. Reaction? Commercial ploy, liars, stop them. Let me remind you of an earlier post by Jan Aldrich and present to you this gem: 'They [FUFOR - HvdP] completely deny an affiliation, meeting or contact with you, ACC, Ed Wang or any contact with the Air Force on this subject.' Seems like ACC has attracted the typhoid. I am in the initial stages of drawing the conclusion that by now things in the cover up situation have turned upside down. In the old days UFO organizations were hoping to get the truth out. The enemy was the military-industrial establishment. Now, almost 1998 and after the cold war, the military-industrial establishment, meaning ACC, US Air Force and Corso, seem to more willing to present the UFO situation to the people than the UFO establishment. While UFO investigators at grass roots level are hoping for results, their leaders content themselves with things like Project 1947 while kicking the guts out of every initiative that comes close to opening the lid on the cover up. It's just a reflection of that same Washington politics that the American people seems to hate so much. Too many people in the UFO establishment have gone native. They care about their own positions and about who said what. Mutually respectful dialogue with other UFO organizations or with the US military? Never heard of. Not surprisingly, they don't produce a shred of results. To those who are willing to contribute anything to the real work, let me say this: "ask not what others can do to end the cover up, ask what you can do to end it." ACC's Jack Shulman wants input from everyone who can help him with his endeavor. ACC's telephone number is 1-800-8507710. If you have valuable information, ask for Jack. He is available. And he doesn't care about who confirmed the Princeton meeting. He has moved on to bigger things. Imagine for yourself about whom the holographics history lessons of the 22nd Century will be about. Corso and Shulman or the UFO party apparitsjiks? It seems to me that the traditional UFO organizations have an interesting choice now that the new millennium is approaching: start writing history or be history. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 24 Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkin's POV] From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:57:42 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:06:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkin's POV] >Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 07:24:25 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Brasilia's Letter >>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:22:49 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Brasilia's Letter >>I just wanted to add that I too was a bit disappointed to see >>that Budd Hopkins and Dave Jacobs had put their names to a >>document that contains so much pure speculation. I also have >>respect for AJ and I'm just as surprized at his involvement. >>John Velez >John, >Why not ask Budd why he signed? Just did! Turns out he never even got a chance to read it! They were all ragged and tired and on a line waiting for a bus back to the hotel from the convention site when they were all called back inside to sign this document for the Brazilian government. Budd says that AJ lined them all up and had them walk past this long table that had eight copies of the letter (all of which they each had to sign) Budd signed out of support for his SA colleagues but never gave it much thought. It turns out that exhaustion and hunger were the uppermost things in his mind at the time! I let him have it for not reading it first to which he replied, "I didn't think it was going to convince the Brazilian government to do anything anyway, so I didn't see any harm in supporting their efforts to get their governments attention." Everyone who knows Budd personally knows what a sweet and generous guy he is and I'm not surprised to hear him say that he was only trying to be supportive of something his hosts considered important. Typical Budd. Note: For those fond of bashing Budd, This post was written in response to Bobs' question and to share with all Budds response. I'm not going to engage in a "Hopkins" debate/defense over the whys and wherefores of his actions. Mister Shell, adios until next time pard, and to all my friends from UpDates, may you all have a peaceful and happy holiday. Cheers! John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 24 Re: The FUFOR Factor? From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:02:23 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:14:34 -0500 Subject: Re: The FUFOR Factor? >Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:00:25 -0800 >From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The FUFOR Factor?? [was: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue > 25)...] >> From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Leith] >> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:52:27 EST >> To: updates@globalserve.net >> Subject: The FUFOR Factor??? >> From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) >> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:00:57 -0800 >> Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:35:15 -0500 >> Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >> >My question to you is: Who gave you this information? Who did >> >you check with to see if it was true? Certainly not anyone from >> >FUFOR. Seems to me you ought to be more careful in future! >> I refer you to: >> http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1997/dec/m15-017.shtml >> where you will find this: >> From:jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) >> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:20:08 -0700 >> Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:39:22 -0500 >> Subject: Re: ACC Press release..... But To _Whom_? >> [Snipped all but FUFOR reference -Rebecca] >> "A member of the FUFOR board confirmed to me directly that >> Shulman's meeting with members of the DOD, Air Force, lawyers and >> security personnel at Princeton did in fact take place." >> [end quote] >> Henny latched on to that and hasn't let us hear the end of it. >Yes, and then there was also a lot of expanding on it, too. >Rebecca, you show more courage than the rest of us in confronting >fuzzy thinking, rumor mongering, and outright charlatanism. I >admire you willingness to stand up to this madness and gladly >suffer the slings and snide comments from the gullible, >uncritical, wide eyed believers. Your example may lead others to >demand higher standards in ufology, also. >Best regards, >-- >Jan Aldrich Couldn't be said better or often enough! Just wanted to add my name to the list. Rebecca is someone I hold in very high esteem/ regard because of her basic common sense, intelligence and mostly because she has always had the moxie to state her case and stick to her guns. I love you too Bex! You -are- an asset to ufology. John Velez Search for other documents from or mentioning: jvif | jan | xiannekei |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 24 Re: Sect Awaits 'His' Arrival In Dallas From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 06:11:15 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:35:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Sect Awaits 'His' Arrival In Dallas Published December 23 on the site of the Houston Chronicle. URL: http://www.chron.com/cgi-bin/auth/story/content/chronicle/metropolitan/9 7/12/23/cult.2-0.html ******* 8:25 PM 12/22/1997 Religious group's move to Dallas area spurs worries Official pooh-poohs rumors about mass suicide By R.G. RATCLIFFE Copyright 1997 Houston Chronicle More than 140 followers of an ancient Chinese philosophy have triggered fears in Taiwan that they will commit a mass suicide because they sold their homes and moved to the Dallas suburb of Garland to await God's arrival March 31. But a Taiwanese cultural official in Houston said Monday that he met with the group over the weekend and believes they are following a harmless spiritual calling. "They respect life. That is why they are vegetarian," said Yu-Chung Lo, deputy director general of the Taipei Economic and Cultural Office in Houston. "They would never, never, under any circumstances, never would they commit suicide, because this is a very great crime." The concern arose in Taiwan last week after newspapers there reported that the group planned a mass suicide. The fears were intensified by English translations that turned the group's name into "God Save the Flying Objects of the World" or "God Save the Flying Saucers." Those names conjured images of the Heaven's Gate cult, whose 39 members committed suicide in March in San Diego believing their spirits would be carried off in flying saucers. T.K. Lee, chief information officer of the Taipei Economic and Cultural Office in Houston, said his translation of the group's name is "God's Salvation Church." Lo said the fear of mass suicide led him to travel to Garland over the weekend to meet with the group's leader, Heming Chen. Lo said the group consists of 140-150 people, including 30-40 children. "They are actually a group of tourists," he said. "They believe God will appear March 31 in the city of Garland. So they stay there waiting for God to appear." Lo said Chen told the group that God would appear to them in Garland, but Lo said he did not know why. "To me, it's just like somebody who believes in Santa Claus," he said. Lo said the group is made up of followers of Daoism, an 8,000-year-old Chinese philosophy that envisions the universe as a field of energy, or Dao. Lo said the group bought 21 houses in Garland and is living on about $200,000 the members brought with them to the United States. Many in the group are doctors and have doctorates, he said. "They are all friendly and reasonable," he said, adding that the group meditates, jogs and follows a vegetarian diet. "Their life is very simple." Lo said members of the group have roundtrip airplane tickets. "They say that after March 31, if they do not see God, they will return to Taiwan," Lo said. "This is a case of great misunderstanding." Garland police spokesman Joel Bettes said the only information the department has received on the group so far is from the news media. "We don't have any crimes committed," Bettes said. "We're just collecting information." A woman who answered the telephone at Chen's home said she could not discuss the group, but said there would be a news conference today in Garland to wipe away all misunderstanding. "I can certainly tell you we are not committing suicide," the woman said.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 24 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:05:35 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:39:01 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:05:47 -0700 > From: jared@valuserve.com (Jared Anderson) > To: Updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso Regarding the intentional name dropping of FUFOR using an ill-conceived appeal to authority in an attempt to support an otherwise non-supportable story, Jared Anderson stated: > The reason I did not post the individual's name is because he > specifically asked that I not post any of the contents of our > conversation to the Internet (I don't believe this individual > uses the Internet or has e-mail). But you did post the contents and you partially identified the individual as a member of FUFOR. Why did you do that? I am sure this individual is a member of other organizations also? Why did you choose only to identify FUFOR? And why betray your friend's alleged confidence in you by divulging the "contents" of your alleged conversation with him? Now, you happen to have a FUFOR Board member that is practically your next door neighbor, Dr. Richard Haines. I have his phone number and have been to his home. He wrote the introduction to my book. I am not saying that your alleged source is Dick Haines, but how do you think Dick Haines will feel when he finds out from me that you have violated the confidence of a friend by: 1. divulging alleged contents of a conversation allegedly given to you in strict confidence and distributing that internationally over the Internet? 2. Dragging and identifying FUFOR into it implying that it would add to the prestige of your "unidentified source" who specifically according to you asked not to be named? 3. And knowing that if you would do that to your unidentified alleged "FUFOR friend" and presuming also a friend of your friend Richard Haines, that you would also do that to him should he ever say anything to you in confidence in the future? > The individual in question did, > in fact, confirm to me that the meeting took place as I specified > earlier and I will stand by my conviction here. But your alleged "FUFOR friend" doesn't have the conviction, according to you, to come out of the cold and support your initial statements. Why is that? > Any errononeus > association between FUFOR and ACC as a result of my earlier > statements by individuals on this list or elsewhere is not my > responsibility. WRONG! It is your responsibility. You are the one that introduced, implied, and suggested through an erroneous appeal to authority that somehow your anonymous source through his alleged connection to FUFOR would be in a position to substantiate your rhetoric of the day. May Santa bring you what you deserve. Ed Stewart PS. cc of this message to Richard Haines. If the e-mail I have for Dick Haines bounces, I will be calling him after the holidays. If it doesn't, I will post any response of his to the above to this mailing list. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart egs@netcom.com | So Man, who here seems principal alone, There is Something | Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) | 'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. --------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 24 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:44:49 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:37:39 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 04:36:34 +0100 (MET) > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > >Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:41:35 -0800 > >From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich) > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: Re: UFO Update: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Jan, > You have really pissed me off and I am afraid you have > asked for what is coming. Henny, you are full of crap. You have been exposed for what you are, nothing more than a fabricator of tales who has zero integrity for facts and refuses to demonstrate any responsibility for the falsehoods you have been caught red-handed by Jan Aldrich distributing internationally. > Jan, I admit it when I am wrong and immediately, unlike > some other people I know. When I hear 'FUFOR board member' > that means to me 'FUFOR', so in that respect that was not > a memory lapse. Neither was your total fabrication a memory lapse when you stated: "FUFOR has arranged witnesses for the meeting with ACC and the USAF near Princeton University." That came from your imagination with no basis in fact. It was a total fabrication from you, no one else. That makes you a liar, not to be trusted, not to be listened to. You have no integrity. > I am not in the habit of makings things up. Maybe I was wrong, > maybe I was right. There is no "maybe" and there is no "maybe I was right". You LIED by inventing something that never had been part of the story. Your fabrication, your mentality, your lie. > I read dozens of emails and web sites every > day and I have a good memory for things that matter. Why does > this matter anyway? It matters because it is NOT true. It is an invention of yours. A pure lie with no basis in fact. An albatross that you will carry with you around you neck the rest of your ufological life. [Massive deletion as Henny invoking dark conspiracies and ilk the likes of ORTK, CSETI's Steven Greer, Corso and ACC in an attempt to extricate and squirm himself out of responsibility for being caught red-handed lying and fabricating events on this mailing list] > It seems to me that the traditional UFO > organizations have an interesting choice now that the new > millennium is approaching: start writing history or be history. Reminds me of another bit of past sage ufological advice that came from that champion of the "unidentified source" Richard J. Boylan: "If you don't like the news. Go out and make some yourself." Henny, may Santa bring you, and ilk like you, what you deserve and have earned. Ed Stewart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart egs@netcom.com | So Man, who here seems principal alone, There is Something | Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) | 'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. --------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 24 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Rob Irving <RobIrving@aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 04:23:20 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:41:24 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 04:36:34 +0100 (MET) > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso Henny, > It seems to me that the traditional UFO > organizations have an interesting choice now that the new > millennium is approaching: start writing history or be history. The object of history is to console the reader, so what does that have to do with truth, and - btw - what does the millennium have to do with anything? Rob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 24 Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:30:16 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:48:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:57:42 -0500 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Brasilia's Letter > >Why not ask Budd why he signed? > Just did! Turns out he never even got a chance to read it! > They were all ragged and tired and on a line waiting for a bus > back to the hotel from the convention site when they were > all called back inside to sign this document for the Brazilian > government. Budd says that AJ lined them all up and had them > walk past this long table that had eight copies of the letter > (all of which they each had to sign) Budd signed out of support > for his SA colleagues but never gave it much thought. It turns > out that exhaustion and hunger were the uppermost things > in his mind at the time! > I let him have it for not reading it first to which he replied, > "I didn't think it was going to convince the Brazilian government > to do anything anyway, so I didn't see any harm in supporting > their efforts to get their governments attention." Now that Bud has filled his belly with nourishment, rested from a long trip, caught up on his sleep and apparently has had an opportunity to read the contents of the Brasilia Letter, he must have had an opportunity to evaluate his "signing". I am assuming of course that Budd Hopkins is a responsible ufologist and would not allow his signature to remain if he was in objection to any of its contents. I don't hear a retraction from Budd Hopkins as we have from others that have had an opportunity to re-evaluate the letter after the fact. So, I gather he is in support of the Brasilia Letter and the connotations expressed in it. A.J. Gevaerd made the following clear: "The Brazilian UFO Comission, who hosted the Forum, asked the support of the international UFO speakers present, representing their local UFO communities in that action, just by signing the document. By doing that they would make it clear that they approve and recommend our letter." So, who does Budd Hopkins represent in the "local UFO community"? Did someone elect him to be some kind of "ambassador" prior to his departure to Brasil? For those that have not read the Brasilia Letter, here is the English version, minus all the signatures since apparently there is still an ongoing dilemma as to who and who did not really sign the darn thing. One would think that for such an alleged important milestone document, better care, planning and coordination would have taken place in gathering legitimate signatures in the first place. =3D=3D English: Bras=EDlia (DF), Brazil, December 14,1997. BRASILIA'S LETTER Brazilian and foreign ufologists, from 19 nations of all continents, gathered at the First World UFO Forum, from December 7 to 14,1997, in the World Parliament of Ecumenical Fraternity, Parlamundi of the LGW, in Bras=EDlia, Brazil. The following facts were presented in the presence of the Brazilian air force minister: 1. That it is of general knowledge that the UFO phenomenon, represented by the constant visits of space vehicles to planet Earth, is genuine and been independently confirmed by civilian ufologists and military authorities throughout the world for the last 50 years. 2. That the origin of such phenomenon, already identified as extraterrestrial and whose visiting vehicles come from civilizations technologically far advanced than our own, co-exist with us in the Universe. 3. That such civilizations are in a continuous process of approaching Earth and our planetary civilization. Also, that these civilizations, through their maneuvers, most of the time, display no hostility towards us. 4. That the visits of such extraterrestrial civilizations to Earth have been gradually increasing over recent years, accordinq to statistics provided by national and international statistics, not only in quantity but also in intensity. 5. That it is urgent to establish an offcial programme of knowledge, research and public education of the topic. Through such methods, make it clear to the Brazilian population the ever growing, undeniable and extraterrestrial presence on Earth. Thus, considering the adopted attitudes taken by countries who have already recognized the extent of the problem, such as Chile for example, who a few weeks ago established a UFO investigating committee, we respectfully recommend that the Brazilian Air Force, or some of their departments, adopt a similar approach to formulate an appropriate way to discuss the subject at all levels possible. The Brazilian UFO Community, through this act represented by the national researchers whose names appear below and with the full support of the World UFO Community, represented in this act by the undersigned, wishes to volunteer its knowledge, effort and dedication should our proposal become a reality. As an initial point in this process, something that would represent a positive action taken by our authorit=EDes, the Brazilian UFO Community respectfully requests that your Ministry opens the files about at least two specific and remarkable episodes of our UFO research. (a) The Operation Prato, conducted by the First Air Regional Command (COMAR) of Bel=E9m, Par=E1 State, between September and December 1997, that resulted in a large volume document, complemented with more than 500 photos and many films, the movements of UFOs above the Amazon Region, as was confirmed by Coronel Uyrang=EA Bol=EDvar Soares de Hollanda Lima; and (b) Ufological phenomenon which occurred in May of 1986, over the states of Rio de Janeiro and S=E3o Paulo, among others, when more than 20 unknown flying objects were observed, monitored, recorded on radar and were chased by Air Force jets, according to the Aeronautics Minister at that time, Brigadier Oct=E1vio Moreira Lima. Given that civilian and military authorities have been aware of the UFO situation and have monitored it at different levels over past decades, always in the interest of national security, we believe that this initiative and agreement would solidify the beginning of a meaningful and prosperous partnership. Cordially, BRAZILIAN UFO COMMISSION (BUC) Ademar Jose Gevaerd Centro Brasileiro de Pesquisas de Discos Voadores (CBPDV) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart egs@netcom.com | So Man, who here seems principal alone, There is Something | Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) | 'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. --------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 24 Re: Kal Korff's UFO Sighting From: "Keith Woodard" <qwoodard@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 04:46:42 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:50:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Kal Korff's UFO Sighting > From: TotlResrch <TotlResrch@aol.com> [Kal K. Korff] > Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:50:44 EST > Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:06:32 -0500 > Subject: Re: Kal Korff's UFO Sighting > Keith, I'd be HAPPY to answer any questions about my > UFO sighting. Feel free to ask away!! Thanks, Kal. I'm fascinated by your sighting. Apparently, MUFON can confirm there were sixty-five other reports more or less corroborating yours. And even the most hypnotic skeptic would have an uphill battle attributing your sighting to a bias against prosaic explanations or a lust for Illuminati conspiracy theories or channeled Space Brother doctrines. Although I'm far from knowledgeable in this field, the sighting strikes me as impressive evidence in both the "flying disk/sphere" and "craft/technology from another civilization" categories. For some reason, I'm unable to find your account in the archives, so I'll repost it here, followed by some questions. Kal Korff on some occasion or another wrote: > On February 16, 1981, just after, ironically, I finished > putting the final touches on my original expose of the > Eduard "Billy" Meier hoax, I was on my way home > with two friends of mine at the time, Mr. and Mrs. Al > and Barbara Reed. > The time was about 11:45PM and because of the > tremendous amount of work my original expose of the > Meier case had taken the Reeds and I to put together, > the three of us were sick and tired of the UFO subject > and very much wanted a break from it. Since I knew > that my book would not be published and on the market > until May of that year, I looked forward to a few > months respite from the field of UFOlogy and its > dreaded politics. I also knew that exposing the Meier > case as a fraud would not endear me to certain > individuals and destroy my then-friendship with > Wendelle Stevens. > At any rate, while driving home, the thee of us saw off > to our left in the sky at approximately a 40 degree > angle, what Mrs. Reed called a "funny looking" > airplane. > Immediately, Al and I both said at that same time > "That's no airplane" and yelled "pull over." This we did, > and the three of us got out of the car to observe the > object. > The object I saw was a bright, red light with a definite > metallic or "spherical" surface reflection behind it. It was > about the angular size of the tip or head of a wooden > stick match held at arm's length. Its' altitude was above > the horizon, yet below the cloud cover and other air > traffic. I observed it on highway 237 in California (in > the San Francisco Bay Area region between the towns > of Santa Clara and Milpitas) and it was just hovering > there with no motion or movement for as long as 4 > minutes. The direction I observed the object was > Northwest, and the sky was pretty illuminated in the > direction of the object due to the its' location. > After observing an airplane (a regular jet airliner) pass > above and right by the object, (though well above it), > after the plane left the object it suddenly for a split > second got momentarily brighter and separated into > TWO objects! > In observing this, it was as if a piece of it separated from > itself, and pulled AWAY from the primary object > towards the left. For a brief moment, there were TWO > objects now (looking much like a cell dividing into two > under a microscope!) and this second object was about > half the size and half the brightness of the primary > object. > As the two "objects" separated from one another, the > second object flew away and within a few seconds > literally DISAPPEARED right in front of our eyes! It > was as if it had "cloaked" and dissolved, just like a > Romulan or Klingon spaceship does in the science > fiction series Star Trek! We couldn't believe this. > After this second object dissolved out the larger, primary > one then started moving and headed straight East > towards the mountains of the Bay Area over the city of > Milpitas and southern Fremont. > Immediately, the three of us got into the car and sped very > fast (luckily there were no police with radar guns that > night, as usual) in order to try and follow the object. > Lucky for us, Highway 237 goes West to East, so we > were able to eventually catch up with the object. I never > took my eyes off it up to this point. > However, the object soon slowed down again and started > heading north. We were also coming to the end of > highway 237 by this time and then headed north on > highway 880 (formerly known as the Nimitz freeway) > and caught up to the object once again. This time, it had > STOPPED and hovered in mid air, and we were directly > UNDER IT at this point and pulled over to the side of > the freeway where we got out of our car and the three of > us watched it where it hovered directly above our heads. > I tried flagging down some cars but in typical California > style, no one would stop. I then returned to observing > the object. It sat there motionless for a minute or so, and > then executed 8 PERFECT tight circle maneuvers in > succession before it stopped once again and rose > STRAIGHT UP above the cloud cover where we lost it > for good. The total sighting lasted about 11 minutes, > maybe 15, depending on whose wristwatch you believe. > In my years since this sighting, where I have become > quite familiar with almost everything flying and even > have worked on the "Star Wars" program and in > particular remote controlled drones, I have never seen > anything like this and know of no craft the U.S. has > today that can explain what it saw. The "cloaking" of > the object (it would have still been visible to us if it had > merely turned off its lights), the flight characteristics > and its "dividing into two pieces" still have me baffled > to this day. > The next night, I was channel surfing, and Dr. Richard F. > Haines and Dr. Andrew Grotowski were shown on the > news out at night looking for a "UFO" which divided > into two pieces, was red in color, and behaved the same > way the object the Reeds and I saw. Over the course of > the next six weeks, there were more than 65 separate > reports of this same object seen in both the day and > nighttime. The patterns of behavior were remarkably > consistent: after "separating" itself, the secondary object > would "dissolve" and the primary object would take off > at a high rate of speed , stop and hover, and then fly > away. > Many UFO researchers from the Bay Area chapter of > MUFON went out to investigate these sightings and I > did as well. I made a point to investigate both the night > and daytime reports, but of course never told any of the > witnesses I interviewed that I had seen the thing as well. > What was fascinating about this mini UFO "wave" was > the extreme consistency of reports. > Later, when I was granted a security clearance and > assigned to the Star Wars project, I did extensive > searches for any U.S.-made device that might account > for what I saw. I never found anything, for what it's > worth. > Well, that's it for now...I will be happy to answer any > questions anyone might have. As I kept looking at the > object, I remember thinking "Wow, if this is REALLY > from another planet, then we (humanity) are indeed > very insignificant in this grand scale of things." I felt > like an ant trying to comprehend nuclear physics!! Kal, you describe "a bright, red light with a definite metallic or 'spherical' surface reflection behind it. It was about the angular size of the tip or head of a wooden stick match held at arm's length." Now, was it the light itself that was matchhead-sized? Did it look more or less like a huge red aircraft light? Is "spherical surface reflection" a reference to an object attached to the light? I want to be clear as to both the size of the light and the size of the associated metallic object (if that's what it was). Am I correct in visualizing a spherical light attached to a larger spherical metallic object? Could you expand on the comment, "the sky was pretty illuminated in the direction of the object due to its location?" You report that the "second object was about half the size and half the brightness of the primary object." Are we now talking about two spherical metallic objects, each with a single red light? The object "executed eight perfect tight circle maneuvers." Could you hazard a ball-park guess as to the diameter of these circles? Maybe closer to ten full moons than three? Aside from the South Bay in the winter of '81, are you aware of any other UFO reports of objects that appeared or behaved similar to this one? Kind regards, Keith
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 24 Re: Sect Awaits 'His' Arrival In Dallas From: RSchatte <RSchatte@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 08:44:10 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:55:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Sect Awaits 'His' Arrival In Dallas From: AOL News <AOLNews@aol.com> Subject: UFO Cult Denies Suicidal Tendencies Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 06:36:17 EST UFO Cult Denies Suicidal Tendencies .c The Associated Press By AMANDA COVARRUBIAS SAN DIMAS, Calif. (AP) - They wear monotone clothing and believe a spaceship is on its way to take them to the afterlife. That, say followers of God's Salvation Church, is the end of the similarities between them and the suicidal Heaven's G ate cult. Followers of the Taiwan-based church have left their homes to join about 140 oth er members in Garland, Texas, where they believe God will arrive in a spaceship on March 31. A white-clad family of four emerged from the church Tuesday, saying they were he aded for Texas to join their fellow congregants, who departed by bus last week. Although its practices seem similar to the Heaven's Gate cult, right down to the uniforms and sneakers worn by followers, God's Salvation members said they have no plans to kill themselves. ``We don't die,'' Pi Feng Chiang, mother of the family, said in halting English. ``We believe God. God like life.'' Thirty-nine members of Heaven's Gate killed themselves in Rancho Santa Fe last M arch by drinking a concoction of booze and pills. God's Salvation followers believe they will board a spaceship to meet God; Heave n's Gate cultists believed they would be taken to the ``Level Beyond Human'' on a spaceship trailing the Hale-Bopp Comet. God's Salvation members wear all white clothing and sneakers; Heaven's Gate cult ists wore all-black uniforms and Nike sneakers when they died. ``To commit suicide is to kill God,'' a lone straggler at the church said Tuesda y, shaking his head behind a chain link fence. ``It's killing your soul that was delegated to you from God.'' The man, dressed in blue jeans and a sweater, would not give his name. Taiwanese media reports last week said the group's leader, Hon-Ming Chen, was en couraging newcomers to kill themselves so their bodies could be picked up by fly ing saucers. Chen told reporters Tuesday that he had no such plans. ``There isn't any danger,'' he said. Chen, a father of two in his 40s, did claim to be the father of Jesus Christ and that God will assume his body at 10 a.m. on March 31. Yu-Chung Lo, deputy director general of the Taipei Economic and Cultural Office in Houston, has met with Chen and his followers and agrees there's nothing to fe ar. ``I believe they would never commit suicide because as so far as I understand th ey are very gentle, friendly and most of them are highly educated,'' Lo said. Chen set up his organization in San Dimas then moved it to Garland early this su mmer because the name sounds like and means ``God's Land.'' Garland is a middle- class northeast Dallas suburb of about 140,000 residents. Los Angeles County sheriff's detectives, who investigated a Taiwanese woman's claim that her teen-age daughter was kidnapped by the cult, said they did not believe God's Salvation followers would kill themselves. The girl had been staying with her uncle, a member of the cult, but her mother wanted her back after the girl's father died last week of cancer, Deputy Joe Lomonaco said. She was reunited with her mother Monday. ``It wasn't a kidnapping,'' Lomonaco said. ``At the most it would have been child concealment. ... There was no crime.'' AP-NY-12-24-97 0629EST Copyright 1997 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without prior written authority of The Associated Press.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 24 Merry Christmas, Mulder From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 20:53:33 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:13:43 -0500 Subject: Merry Christmas, Mulder Subject: Merry Christmas, Mulder 57 ELM STREET BETHLEHEM PA 11:51 P.M. We're too late It's already been here. Mulder, I hope you know what you're doing. Look, Scully, just like the other homes: Douglas fir truncated, mounted, transformed into a shrine;halls decked with bows of holly; stocking hung by the chimney with care. You really think someone's been here? Someone, or something. Mulder over here, It's fruitcake Don't touch it Those things can be lethal It's O.K. There's a note attached: "gonna find out who's naughty and nice. It's judging them, Scully. It's making a list. Who What are you talking about? Ancient mythology tells of an obese humanoid entity who could travel at great speed in a craft powered by antlered servants. Once each year near the winter solstice, this creature is said to decend from the heavens to reward its followers and punish disbelievers with jagged chunks of anthracite. But that's legend Mulder, a story told by parents to frighten children. Surely you don't belive it? Something was here tonight, Scully. Check out the bite marks on this gingerbread man. Whatever tore throught this plate of cookies was massive -- and in a hurry. It left crumbs everwhere. And look, Mulder this milk glass has been completely drained. It gorged itself, Scully It fed without remorse. But why would they leave it milk and cookies? Appeasement. Tonight is the Eve, and nothing can stop its wilding. But if this thing does exist, how did it get in? The doors and windows were locked. There's not sign of forced entry. Unless I miss my guess, it came through the fireplace. Wait a minute, Mulder, If you're saying some huge creature landed on the roof and came down this chimney, you're crazy. The flue is barely six inches wide, nothing could get through there. But what if it could alter its shape, move in all directions at once? You mean, like a bowl full of jelly? Exactly. Scully, I've never told anyone this but when I was a child my home was visited . I saw the creature. It had long white shanks of fur surrounding it ruddy, misshapen head. Its bloated torso was red and white. Ill never forget the horror. I turned away,and when I looked back it had somehow taken on the facial features of my father. Impossible. I know what I saw. And that night, it read my mind it brought me a Mr. Potato Head, Scully, It knew that I wanted a Mr. Potato Head I'm Sorry, Mulder, but you're asking me to disregard the laws of physics. You want me to believe in some supernatural being who soars across the skies and brings gifts to good little girls and boys. Listen to what you're saying. Do you understand the repercussions? If this gets out they'll close the X-files. Scully, listen to me: It knows when you're sleeping. It knows when you're awake. But we have no proof. Last year on this exact date, SETI radio telescopes detected a bogey in the airspace aver twenty seven states. The white House ordered a condition red. But that was a meteor shower. Officially. Two days ago eight prized Scandinavian reindeer vanished from the National Zoo in Washington D.C. Nobody --not even the zoo keeper was told about it. The government doesn't want people to know about Project Kringle. They fear that if this thing is proved to exist the public will stop spending half it annual income in a holiday shopping frenzy. Retail markets will collapse. Scully, They cannot let the world believe this creature lives. There's too much at stake. They'll do what ever it takes to insure another silent night. Mulder,I... Sh-h-h Do you hear what I hear? On the roof. It sounds like..a clatter The truth is up there. Lets's see what's the matter.........
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 24 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 16:49:04 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:08:44 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:44:49 -0800 >From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 04:36:34 +0100 (MET) >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Henny, you are full of crap. You have been exposed for what you >are, nothing more than a fabricator of tales who has zero >integrity for facts and refuses to demonstrate any responsibility >for the falsehoods you have been caught red-handed by Jan Aldrich >distributing internationally. Ed, Let me simply state this. I said something here and I cannot remember where I got it. I am not going to find out where I got it because I am not willing to spend the time on something that is irrelevant anyway. That is done enough already. If nobody of FUFOR - I am not saying the full board, I said nobody of FUFOR - can remember this, then I apparently made a mistake. Like I said before, I make no bones admitting that. Did a make a mistake about this? I will never know because I am not going to find it out. Other matters are more important in the ACC case. Then I went on to lay my finger on some very SOUR SPOTS in Ufology. Suddenly I became a liar. Like everybody suddenly turns out a liar, at least in the minds of people like you, who tries his goddamnedest to do something substantial. Go on, throw me on the same heap where you threw Corso, Shulman and Greer. It does not make a difference to me. I will not be intimidated by this kind of behavior in any way. Not a chance. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 24 Today! CNN's Q&A On Alien Research From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:54:07 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:19:53 -0500 Subject: Today! CNN's Q&A On Alien Research Today CNN's Q&A (Questions & Answers) features a program on alien research. You're invited to chat and fax your comments. At http://cnn.com/CNNI/Programs/qa/ you'll find the necessary links, as you'll see from the copy below, where they are preceded by black squares. Q&A's introduction to the program is at the end. ******* On January 1, 1998, Q&A will replay your favorite show from the previous year. Now is your chance to vote. See below for information. Hosted by: =B0Riz Khan Q&A Airs: Monday-Friday 2030 GMT 2130 Berlin 1730 Buenos Aires 0430 Hong Kong 0200 New Delhi Interact with CNN's Q&A! During the show, you can participate in =B0Q&A's real-time chat where host Riz Khan integrates your comments and questions into the live televsion format. If you can't join us real-time, won't you join the Q&A discussion in one of =B0CNN's Community message boards. =B0UFO sightings...Is the truth out there? =B0Christmas in the Holy Land =B0Byron Janis =B0Israeli/Palestine peace process =B0Royals in Review =B0Mir mission =B0What's "in" and what's not? If you have an idea for an upcoming show, or a guest you'd like to see appear on Q&A, be sure to send your suggestions now, via e-mail. Send your suggestions to: =B0cnni@turner.com On the Wednesday, December 24, 1997 edition of Q&A with Riz Khan: Alien Research It's an age-old question: are we alone? And if not, where might other life forms exist? Exhaustive, serious research into possible extraterrestrial life forms took place in 1997 and we want you to know all about it. Astronomer Seth Shostak joins the Q&A forum to questions and comments about that research and discuss the reality of life forms away from earth. Wednesday Q&A. Send your comments to: =B0cnni@turner.com Post your thoughts on our =B0Message Board: UFO sightings...Is the truth out there? =B0Chat in our Q&A chat room Fax your comments to: 1-404-827-4056 Comments posted here will be reviewed by Q&A producers for possible inclusion on air during CNN International's Q&A.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 24 Alfred's Odd Ode #208 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:56:26 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:30:02 -0500 Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #208 Apology to MW #208 (For December 24, 1997) I talked to a mole that had been through the maze, and into the keeps of the man. There are secrets there buried that would mean an autonomy for the holder of them, understand? You could power your house from a cigarette pack, you could power your car from the sun. You could power your way to the far starry reaches; you could power your own weight, dependant on none. She said there are gadgets -- fantastic machines! The stuff of sheer fantasy, the stuff of your dreams. A man who possessed them would be as a king, beholding to none with a new song to sing. A woman who had them could be on her own, not dependant on man for a scrap or a bone. There is life, the mole says, everlasting and young. Have the bloom of your youth as the years come undone! Your strength can increase, and that's good for a starter, but the best is the fact you get braver and smarter! Then, way beyond unfair control the man could not coerce you. You'd have the power of the man; no longer could he curse you. Any wonder that it's buried where it cannot be so found? Can't you feel, though, the presence of these trinkets so profound? Can't you sense them in dark caverns where they're covered up with dirt? Can't you see them in your mind's eye? Does the image tease and flirt? UFOs are real enough to hover in our skies. I've seen a few myself, my friend, this comes as no surprise <g>? But you would see them too, brave mote, if you went outside to look -- took your mind away from *lifestyles*, and dared to read some different books. Read Graham Hancock, he's respected, and his "Finger prints of Gods" tells a different kind of story than your pastor gave a nod! Read some Sitchin if you dare to, and his tale of planets twelve, opens up horizons -- takes your brain down from its shelf. Velikovsky -- don't disdain him out of hand from stupid reflex, an early victim of the man, he is relevant, and he has context. The mole isn't real as you probably guessed, but I can't say for sure about all of the rest. I'm sure that strange secrets are buried for real so the man can continue to plunder and steal. Plutocracy sucks I'm sure you'd agree if you took a hard look at what I've plainly seen. It's planned obsolescence -- keep selling you _stuff_ -- inefficient, and dangerous, disrespectful -- enough! Lehmberg@snowhill.com Still -- John Ford sits in his dark hole -- tranquilized, mute -- trying to remember what it was he was trying to remember. It could be you, it could be me -- anyone but the one that put him there. We're next. Free John Ford! -- Explore the Alien View? http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/ "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 24 Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:53:04 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:36:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:30:16 -0800 > From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkin's POV] > > Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:57:42 -0500 > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Brasilia's Letter > > >Why not ask Budd why he signed? > > Just did! Turns out he never even got a chance to read it! > > They were all ragged and tired and on a line waiting for a bus > > back to the hotel from the convention site when they were > > all called back inside to sign this document for the Brazilian > > government. Budd says that AJ lined them all up and had them > > walk past this long table that had eight copies of the letter > > (all of which they each had to sign) Budd signed out of support > > for his SA colleagues but never gave it much thought. It turns > > out that exhaustion and hunger were the uppermost things > > in his mind at the time! > > I let him have it for not reading it first to which he replied, > > "I didn't think it was going to convince the Brazilian government > > to do anything anyway, so I didn't see any harm in supporting > > their efforts to get their governments attention." > Now that Bud has filled his belly with nourishment, rested from a > long trip, caught up on his sleep and apparently has had an > opportunity to read the contents of the Brasilia Letter, he must > have had an opportunity to evaluate his "signing". I am assuming > of course that Budd Hopkins is a responsible ufologist and would > not allow his signature to remain if he was in objection to any > of its contents. For God's sake, give the guy a break. The letter is pretty innocuous, and for all practical purposes it amounts to no more than a meaningless gesture. If this is going to be made into a big issue, then ufology has an even bigger death wish than I would have suspected. Had I been there, I probably would not have signed it because, for one thing, I am not a citizen of Brazil. But that was Budd's call to make, and John has described the circumstances under which Budd put his name to it. End of discussion. Let's give this one a rest, and have a great Christmas and New Year, one and all. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 24 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Jean van Gemert <jeanvg@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 20:07:58 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 21:35:03 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso At 09:37 24-12-97 -0500, you wrote: >Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:44:49 -0800 >From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Henny, you are full of crap. You have been exposed for what you >are, nothing more than a fabricator of tales... >That came from your imagination with no basis in fact. It was a >total fabrication from you, no one else. That makes you a liar, >not to be trusted, not to be listened to. You have no integrity. And from your 22 Dec post to Bryan Butcher: >Learn how to read and comprehend the English language. >What you think is irrelevant. >There is no perhaps. You have already demonstrated that you wish >to dwell in gullibility and not muster your energy into finding >facts to support your initial emotional reaction. >I am not surprised. You have already shown to have an apparent >comprehension deficit. >If the difference is beyond your comprehension, go >back to school and this time try to learn something. My my, Ed. Having trouble venting your anger in a decent and normal manner? Your posts kindly suggest you're not even ca- pable of doing so. One thing's obvious, which is that you're not exactly the textbook case of logic and rationality you make yourself out to be. Sorry if that upsets you. Try reading some more of Jerry Clark's posts and you *might just* learn something in terms of civility. __________________________________________________________________________ Science, Logic, and the UFO Debate: http://www.primenet.com/~bdzeiler/index.html -----------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 25 Re: Merry Christmas, Mulder From: Don Ledger <dledger@istar.ca> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:56:56 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 10:20:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, Mulder Bravo John, Bravo. Happy Holidays and a Merry Christmas to you and Errol and all. Don Ledger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 25 UFOR: Happy Holidays From: Francisco Lopez <d005734c@dc.seflin.org> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 16:29:39 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 10:21:04 -0500 Subject: UFOR: Happy Holidays HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL!!! This for all the holidays the many from many places in the lists celebrate (they are just too many and diverse now to acknowledge individually). Hope the next year is a good one and everyone is happy. Francisco
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 25 Re: Merry Christmas, Mulder From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:38:32 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 11:00:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, Mulder HOH HOHOHOHOHOH HOHOHOHOHOH HOHOHOHOHO HOHOOOHO(( )) HOHOHOHHOHOH HOHOHOHOHOHOH HHOHOHOOO _____________________ HOH ------------------- | HO HO HO! | HOO ------------------------------------- HOOOOOOOO HOHOHOHOHOHO OHOHOHOHOO HHOHO HOHOO HOHOH HOHOHOHO HOHOHOHOHO HOHOHOHOHOHO HOHOHOHOHOHOHO HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO hHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOO HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOO HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO hOHOHOHOHOHOHOO hHOHOHOHOHOHOO HOHOHOHOHOHO HOHOHOHOHO HOHOHOHOHO HOHOHOH HOHOHOH HOHOHOO HOHOHOH HOHOHOH HOHOHOO HOHOHOHO OHOHOHOO OHOHOOO HOHOHOH HOHOHOH HOHOHOH HOHOHOO HOHOHOO hHOHOHO HOHOHOO HOHOHOHO HOHOHOHOHO HOHOHOHOHOHOHO HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO *M*RRY CH*STM*S* FROM THE NORTH POLE!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 25 Re: exmas!!!! From: robert windle <orac_uk@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:26:26 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 11:02:06 -0500 Subject: Re: exmas!!!! happy christmas.......ho..ho..ho..!!!!!! _________________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 25 Re: E-Greeting Card From: ben@abcfield.force9.co.uk [Ben Field] Date: 24 Dec 97 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 11:06:24 -0500 Subject: Re: E-Greeting Card Dear UFOUpdates list members, An Electronic Greeting Card is waiting for You at http://www.abcfield.force9.co.uk/greetings.html Sent to you by Ben. Please refer to the Card Number 8240289171 for viewing the Card. Regards, Webmaster, Electronic Greeting Card Service - FREE.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 25 A Christmas Wish From: Dan <geibdan@qtm.net> Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 09:53:10 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 11:07:43 -0500 Subject: A Christmas Wish To..UFO UpDates A Christmas URL for all of you ! http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/thegeibs/ufo.html >From Dan & Nate @ UFO Folklore
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 25 UFO World Greeting Card From: yogi@iadfw.net [Bill Ralls] Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 10:51:17 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 19:59:15 -0500 Subject: UFO World Greeting Card Greeting List, We hope all of you are enjoying the holidays. We have an electronic greeting card available for all of you to download at http://ufo-world.simplenet.com/hholiday.exe We and would like to thank Errol for his outstanding job. We know it must sometimes be a hassle for him and we would just like to thank him again for providing this forum. Happy Holidays and Best Wishes for the New Year, Bill and Glenn
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 25 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: XianneKei <XianneKei@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 14:36:33 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 10:16:33 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >>From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >>Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 16:49:04 +0100 (MET) >>Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:08:44 -0500 >>Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:44:49 -0800 >From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Henny, you are full of crap. You have been exposed for what you >are, nothing more than a fabricator of tales who has zero >integrity for facts and refuses to demonstrate any responsibility >for the falsehoods you have been caught red-handed by Jan Aldrich >distributing internationally. Ed, I concur! Very well said. And while I'm at it: Thank you Jan Aldrich and Thank you John Velez. Henny said: > Let me simply state this. I said something here and I cannot > remember where I got it. I am not going to find out where I > got it because I am not willing to spend the time on something > that is irrelevant anyway. That is done enough already. And I have this to say to Henny: "Hello Pot, have you met my friend Mr. Kettle?" http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1997/dec/m19-013.shtml >>To >>some armchair ufologists who haven't mastered the telephone yet >>this is of course sour grapes. >If nobody of FUFOR - I am not saying the full board, I said > nobody of FUFOR - can remember this, then I apparently made > a mistake. Like I said before, I make no bones admitting that. > Did a make a mistake about this? I will never know because I am > not going to find it out. Other matters are more important in > the ACC case. "Apparently," Henny? Are you sure? It is more than apparent that you made a mistake. To me, it looks like you concocted a story from a few words to fit your belief system. > Go on, throw me on the same heap where you threw Corso, Shulman > and Greer. It does not make a difference to me. I will not be > intimidated by this kind of behavior in any way. Not a chance. I hope you can stand the stench. Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 26 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:02:55 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 00:47:42 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >From: Rob Irving <RobIrving@aol.com> >Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 04:23:20 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 04:36:34 +0100 (MET) >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Henny, >> It seems to me that the traditional UFO >> organizations have an interesting choice now that the new >> millennium is approaching: start writing history or be history. Rob, you said: >The object of history is to console the reader, so what does that >have to do with truth, I don't think I understand your question here. and - btw - what does the millennium have >to do with anything? This was just rhetoric, Rob. I was trying to make a point. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 26 Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 01:05:13 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 01:25:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] > Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:53:04 PST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] Jerome Clark decides to enlighten this list with his ufological wisdom: > For God's sake, give the guy a break. The letter is pretty > innocuous, and for all practical purposes it amounts to no > more than a meaningless gesture. In that case where do I sign up? I want to be a nice guy also like Budd and place my name and my reputation behind something meaningless just not to offend my Brasilian hosts who paid for my trip, and when I arrive back in the U.S. I can simply dismiss it with the wave of a hand claiming that I did not read it in the first place - but not make a peep about whether or not I am in current agreement with the contents of the letter and really do or do not support it. I kind of like that. I can have my cake and eat it too. After all, this is ufology and not something that has any serious meaning at all and people interested in this subject for the most part don't exercise any critical thinking to realize that I am having my cake and eating too by pleasing everyone: the proponents of the letter by having signing it and the opponents of the letter by not having read it! After all I want to be such a nice guy like Budd knowing that such duplicitous action will be defended by Budd's pal Jerome Clark!!! > If this is going to be made > into a big issue, then ufology has an even bigger death wish > than I would have suspected. TIME OUT! You speak of ufology has some monolithic field. Since when has ufology ever been in such a status to have a "death wish"? It is an impossibility for you to have any suspicions about "ufology" because there is no such thing as ufology as some monolithic field in the first place and it is impossible to address it as such and make any kind of sense. No one has ever been able to speak for ufology, and if there is one thing, one lesson, to have been learned after 50 years is that anyone that has ever stepped up to the podium in the past with that presumption in mind, i.e. that they spoke for the ufo phenomenon or ufology, got their ass chewed and dispersed into little pieces never to be seen again. You sound like your pal James Oberg when you group ufology as if it was some monolithic body when you think it pleases your argument. The disaster status of ufology has been here for decades while people like you have spewed out their ufological wisdom, but turn their backs on critical thinking and discernment and fail to challenge and confront the real issue: the merry-go-round bullshit spewed out by whoever the present day illuminaries are. It is not ufology that has ever had a death wish, it is those that claim to speak for it that have had that long standing death wish, as also the failure of those to stand up against the irrationality in the subject on the illusion that confrontation gives ufology a bad name, especially when it involves one of the sacred cows in ufology. > Had I been there, I probably would not have signed > it because, for one thing, I am not a citizen of Brazil. First, you weren't there and your statement above is totally irrelevant. Second, nobody asked you in the first place. It made no different where one was from to sign the letter. A.J. Gevaerd made it very clear and simple. Here again is that part of the post you choose to ignore and clip in your defense of Budd's duplicitous action: --- part of original post clipped by Jerome Clark --- I don't hear a retraction from Budd Hopkins as we have from others that have had an opportunity to re-evaluate the letter after the fact. So, I gather he is in support of the Brasilia Letter and the connotations expressed in it. "The Brazilian UFO Comission, who hosted the Forum, asked the support of the international UFO speakers present, representing their local UFO communities in that action, just by signing the document. By doing that they would make it clear that they approve and recommend our letter." --- A.J. Gevaerd --- So, who does Budd Hopkins represent in the "local UFO community"? Did someone elect him to be some kind of "ambassador" prior to his departure to Brasil? --- end of original post not addressed by Jerome Clak --- > But that was Budd's call to make, and John has described > the circumstances under which Budd put his name to it. Paraphrasing what appears to be Budd's position: while in Brazil I pleased my hosts by signing something I didn't bother to read, while in America I really think my hosts were silly people for producing such a measure, but I am not going to ask to have my name removed, now that I have read it, since I am a very nice guy and don't really wish to offend my silly Brasilian hosts. This way I can have my cake and eat it too. My reward for being such a nice guy. Only in ufology! > End of discussion. > Let's give this one a rest, and have a great Christmas and > New Year, one and all. > Jerry Clark Okay, let's give this one a rest and return to ufology as usual. No sense in identifying the silly day-to-day duplicity in the world of ufology, rocking the boat, or pointing out that ufology is a disaster as practiced today. Besides, probably hardly anyone on this list is interested in demanding higher standards from ufological illuminaries such as Budd Hopkins who apparently finds it perfectly legitimate to exhibit duplicity and from Jerome Clark who comes running to Budd's defense ignoring that any duplicity has taken place in the first place. May Santa bring you everything that you deserve. Ed Stewart PS. I think what is really needed here is a clear statement from Budd Hopkins. Does he, or doesn't he support the Brasilia Letter and is or is not in agreement with its contents? In spite of Jerome Clark's plea, Hopkins' reading public deserves no less than a clear position and not this duplicitous horseshit from Budd! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart egs@netcom.com | So Man, who here seems principal alone, There is Something | Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) | 'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. --------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 26 'Soul Catcher' From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 03:59:48 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 01:27:15 -0500 Subject: 'Soul Catcher' Found in the news section of the Sci-Fi Channel's site. URL: http://www.scifi.com/sightings/web061897/news.html ******* Soul Catcher! The Research and Development department at British Telecom recently announced that a micro chip small enough to be placed undetected behind the human eye is not only theoretically possible, it is also likely to happen soon. Dubbed the Soul Catcher, whatever memories you record could be transferred into a computer's memory so that your thoughts can live on longer than you do. Ian Pearson and the other Futurists at BT Labs speculate that the Soul Catcher, could be ready in less than thirty years. William Gibson, who's impressions about computer technology has been uncanny was pessimistic. In his first book, Neuromancer, he coined the term Cyberspace and in his screen play for the movie Johnny Pneumonic, Gibson wrote of a man who implants computer chips directly into his own brain. He believes the Soul Catcher will have almost unlimited potential for abuse by implanting someone with one of these devices against their will, as a punishment or as a surveillance device. Europa: Life on Jupiter. The Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, is analyzing brand new images from Europa, Jupiter's largest and closest Moon. Galileo was just four hundred thirty miles away when it sent back pictures of Europa. Showing evidence that it probably has a liquid ocean inside of it. This is very unusual because the temperatures in the outer Solar System are so cold that ice normally is what you get with water. You don't get liquid water. It is the first time Earthlings have seen ice flows anywhere in the outer Solar System. The flows indicate that there may be warm water below the icy crust. You find with the Galileo pictures that we have of areas of Europa that look a lot like the ice flows in the Arctic regions of the Earth. There could be something like Continents drifting on the Earth on Europa. Only these would be continents of ice floating like giant icebergs on a liquid ocean. Thomas Mcdonough of JPL goes further, hypothesizing that the icy areas of Europa are not necessarily solid. There are interesting places on the Earth that remind us of Europa, such as, in the Arctic regions, where there is an abundance of life, and he believes that there's a possibility that you could have life living inside of Europa today.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 26 Re: Sect Awaits 'His' Arrival In Dallas From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates] Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 19:10:55 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 01:54:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Sect Awaits 'His' Arrival In Dallas > From: RSchatte <RSchatte@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] > Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 08:44:10 EST > To: CNINews1@aol.com, updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Fwd: UFO Cult Denies Suicidal Tendencies > From: AOL News <AOLNews@aol.com> > Subject: UFO Cult Denies Suicidal Tendencies > Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 06:36:17 EST > UFO Cult Denies Suicidal Tendencies > ..c The Associated Press > By AMANDA COVARRUBIAS > SAN DIMAS, Calif. (AP) - They wear monotone clothing and believe a spaceship > is on its way to take them to the afterlife. That, say followers of God's > Salvation Church, is the end of the similarities between them and the > suicidal Heaven's Gate cult. > Followers of the Taiwan-based church have left their homes to join about 140 > other members in Garland, Texas, where they believe God will arrive in a > spaceship on March 31. We will see more and more of these type groups and organizations as we approach the year 2000. The latest was an Edgar Cayce TV special claiming that in 1998 was going to be all these disasters, then in 1999, we would be hurling nuclear missiles as each other. But for those of us that have been around, and remember how all the experts and learned people predicted the end of the world/armegeddon to happen no later then fall 1975, then 1979, then .....pick you date, this comes as no surprise. Then when the End-of-the-world doesn't happen, we will have new dates, new groups, and new experts extolling the various new dates. Watch and see Search for other documents from or mentioning: rgates8254 | rschatte |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 26 Christmas Greetings From: ufo1@juno.com [Jack Sargeant] Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 20:14:35 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 01:56:39 -0500 Subject: Christmas Greetings Hello the list. Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukah to one and all. Jack
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 26 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 00:13:58 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 04:04:36 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 20:07:58 +0100 (MET) > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Jean van Gemert <jeanvg@dds.nl> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso Jean van Gemert makes an impromptu appearance after witnessing his compatriot Henny exposed as a liar on this mailing list. I didn't realize I was so popular with the fringe crowd to have my posts collected and quotes extracted in an irrelevant attempt at distraction from the real issues. I guess in a way I should be honored that you are paying such close attention to my choice of words, but may I suggest you start paying closer attention to the real issues at hand instead of exhibiting your frustration every time I bring attention to one of your friends and associates. May I suggest to you that if you are appalled at my lack of civility in this mailing list directed at those elements that you support, that you are in dire need to re-evaluate your personal values and priorities. [Massive SNIP of examples of alleged incivility researched by Jean van Gemert] > My my, Ed. Having trouble venting your anger in a decent and > normal manner? Your posts kindly suggest you're not even ca- > pable of doing so. One thing's obvious, which is that you're > not exactly the textbook case of logic and rationality you > make yourself out to be. Sorry if that upsets you. Not at all, no trouble at all. I am so happy you have decided to join us. I have been waiting since late October for you to answer some questions that I posed to you after you postured yourself as the ideal of logic, rationality, and state-of-art center of knowledge regarding the discussions on FTL. I refer you to: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1997/oct/m28-018.shtml Everyone is still waiting on you to back-up your arguments. After that post of mine listed above you disappeared without responding to the many questions I posed regarding not only your position, but also Henny's who also chose to disappear to wherever you guys hide out when you are not on this list. Was it my lack of civility that offended you? Or the fact that you got caught posturing through your hat with clumsy attempts of intellectual bullyism that caused you to abruptly disappear? > Try reading some more of Jerry Clark's posts and you *might > just* learn something in terms of civility. I am very familiar with Jerome Clark's posts since his very first mail bag appearance in FLYING SAUCER REVIEW back in 1961, 36 years ago, before he was old enough to be out during curfew hours. Besides Jerome Clark himself, I am probably one of the very few people interested in this subject that could publish a complete as possible Jerome Clark bibliography. I thing I am not exaggerating when I say that I have seen every one of Jerome's public faces over the last 36 years. Thank you for the tip, but please spare me! BTW, Jerome Clark has been published 31 times in FSR, three co-authored with Lucius Farish and twice co-authored with Loren Coleman. Anyone interested in a complete bibliographical index to FLYING SAUCER REVIEW, sorted 3 separate ways by author, article title, and volume number contact either FUFOR or Arcturus Books, over 600 pages of source information - a tool designed for serious researchers only, the index contains no claims, no sex, no sensationalism, in other words boring yet essential. (Shameless self-serving plug by the compiler) May Santa have brought you and your ilk what you deserve. Ed Stewart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart egs@netcom.com | So Man, who here seems principal alone, There is Something | Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) | 'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. --------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 26 Russia Fails To Put Satellite Into Orbit From: "Requiemdream:)" <snake@mwaz.com> [R. Scott Holloway] Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 00:57:22 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 23:05:35 -0500 Subject: Russia Fails To Put Satellite Into Orbit Russia Fails To Put Satellite Into Orbit 01:41 a.m.Dec 26, 1997 Eastern MOSCOW (Reuters) - A satellite owned by Asia Satellite Telecommunications Holdings Ltd. and launched by Russia deviated from its planned route into orbit, a Russian space center spokesman says. Experts differed over the possibility of the probe falling to earth. Konstantin Lantratov, spokesman for the Khrunichev Space Center (KSC), told Reuters that AsiaSat 3 may fall in several months. Moscow-based KSC is the maker of the Proton booster which took the AsiaSat 3 communications satellite into space for Hong Kong-based Asia Satellite Telecom- munications. Lantratov said the satellite would circle the earth for the next few months, losing altitude until several of its parts fell to earth. ``Not all parts will burn in earth's atmosphere,'' he said. But Asia Satellite Telecommunications deputy chief executive officer Bill Wade said in Hong Kong the troubled satellite would not plunge back to earth. ``No, it's well beyond the earth's atmosphere. There's no possible way it can come back to earth,'' Wade said. He said the company was investigating what appears to have been an anomaly in the final stage of the launch of AsiaSat 3, which was launched early on Thursday from the Baikonur cosmodrome in Kazakhstan. The 2,534 kg (5,586 pound) satellite was made by Hughes Electronics Corp, a unit of General Motors Corp, to provide television coverage and telecom- munications services across 50 countries throughout Asia, the Middle East and the Commonwealth of Independent States. The satellite is carrying 28 C-band and 16 Ku-band transponders, Satellite Telecommunications says. Its C-band footprint was designed to give extensive geographical reach while its Ku-band coverage comprised two fixed beams covering South Asia and East Asia, as well as an in-orbit steerable beam. The satellite was planned to be positioned at 105.5 degrees east longitude, the present orbital location of AsiaSat 1. That satellite reaches more than 220 million people across the Asia-Pacific. On Tuesday, Russia put off the launch of AsiaSat 3 because of bad weather -- an unprecedented move underlining the launch's value to Moscow. In Soviet times, satellites were launched in line with directives from Moscow regardless of any risks posed by bad weather. But two years ago, Russia began servicing foreign firms on commercial grounds. Space experts say Moscow gets around $70 million for each launch. Peter Jackson, Asia Satellite Telecommunications' coordinator, said at the time his company welcomed the decision to postpone. ``Safety is a very important factor in this situation,'' Jackson said. Russian news agencies said the satellite was launched at 2:19 a.m. on Thursday (2319 GMT on Wednesday), carried by Proton booster rocket. After six hours and 20 minutes of flight it lost its orbit when the engine of the last stage of the booster suddenly switched off. ``The engine has been working only one second instead of 110 seconds,'' Lantratov said. The probe separated from the failed block but was set into a wrong orbit. Lantratov said both Proton and AsiaSat 3 were insured. KSC has made seven commercial launches using heavy Proton-K boosters and Lantratov said the company would suspend further launches pending an investigation into Thursday's incident. Copyright 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 26 Re: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to From: Jean van Gemert <jeanvg@dds.nl> Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 12:07:54 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 23:06:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to At 04:04 26-12-97 -0500, you wrote: >Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 00:13:58 -0800 >From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Jean van Gemert makes an impromptu appearance after witnessing >his compatriot Henny exposed as a liar on this mailing list. Ed, ever try getting a job as a soap opera writer? You'd do great, I'm sure. In any case, I'm not responding just because Henny's my "compatriot", but because you seem to have problems debating anyone *without* falling into your repetitive pattern of using scorn and ad hominem drivel. >I didn't realize I was so popular with the fringe crowd to have Quit thumping yourself on the chest Ed, you're not the greatest "thing" since sliced bread. This labelling of points of view different from yours as "fringe" is now getting old very fast. >my posts collected and quotes extracted in an irrelevant attempt >at distraction from the real issues. I guess in a way I should be No, they contain scorn and insults from your hand, insults that weren't necessary. >real issues at hand instead of exhibiting your frustration I don't think I am exhibiting any frustration. >associates. May I suggest to you that if you are appalled at my >lack of civility in this mailing list directed at those elements >that you support, that you are in dire need to re-evaluate your >personal values and priorities. More false logic and inferences. Who ever said I "supported" their cases? My critique was solely directed at your (ahum) "literary" style, a point which you have trouble dealing with. >[Massive SNIP of examples of alleged incivility researched by >Jean van Gemert] "Alleged incivility"? Come one now. >Not at all, no trouble at all. I am so happy you have decided to >join us. I have been waiting since late October for you to answer >some questions that I posed to you after you postured yourself as >the ideal of logic, rationality, and state-of-art center of >knowledge regarding the discussions on FTL. What Ed's saying here is that he's not able to deal with the issue I brought up, so it's time to take it off tangent and zero in on obfuscating trivia. >Everyone is still waiting on you to back-up your arguments. After >that post of mine listed above you disappeared without responding >to the many questions I posed regarding not only your position, Well, Ed, I have a life. I can't be bothered to dig into an issue when I don't have the time. This asside from the fact that I would not have responded in any case, as I had gotten pretty weary from the large number of insults and scorn when I got to the end of that response. Perhaps this is a tactic of yours, to get people not to respond so you can claim "victory," eh? >> Try reading some more of Jerry Clark's posts and you *might >> just* learn something in terms of civility. >I am very familiar with Jerome Clark's posts since his very first >mail bag appearance in FLYING SAUCER REVIEW back in 1961, 36 Too bad then, you haven't learned a thing. >May Santa have brought you and your ilk what you deserve. I hope Santa brought you some decency in a package, but I'm not holding my breath. __________________________________________________________________________ Science, Logic, and the UFO Debate: http://www.primenet.com/~bdzeiler/index.html -----------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 26 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 14:20:38 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 23:11:24 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 00:13:58 -0800 >From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso >> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 20:07:58 +0100 (MET) >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> From: Jean van Gemert <jeanvg@dds.nl> >> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso Ed said: >Jean van Gemert makes an impromptu appearance after witnessing >his compatriot Henny exposed as a liar on this mailing list. And: >Everyone is still waiting on you to back-up your arguments. After >that post of mine listed above you disappeared without responding >to the many questions I posed regarding not only your position, >but also Henny's who also chose to disappear to wherever you guys >hide out when you are not on this list. For the record, Jean and I don't know each other, except from this list. This was just one more example of baseless innuendo from someone who is quick to call other people liars. About not responding to your posts, Ed, it's no use. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 26 Re: Sect Awaits 'His' Arrival In Dallas From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 08:52:48 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 23:18:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Sect Awaits 'His' Arrival In Dallas >From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates] >Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 19:10:55 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sect Awaits 'His' Arrival In Dallas >> From: RSchatte <RSchatte@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] >> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 08:44:10 EST >> To: CNINews1@aol.com, updates@globalserve.net >> Subject: Fwd: UFO Cult Denies Suicidal Tendencies >> From: AOL News <AOLNews@aol.com> >> Subject: UFO Cult Denies Suicidal Tendencies >> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 06:36:17 EST >> UFO Cult Denies Suicidal Tendencies >> ..c The Associated Press >> By AMANDA COVARRUBIAS >> SAN DIMAS, Calif. (AP) - They wear monotone clothing and believe a spaceship >> is on its way to take them to the afterlife. That, say followers of God's >> Salvation Church, is the end of the similarities between them and the >> suicidal Heaven's Gate cult. >> Followers of the Taiwan-based church have left their homes to join about >> 140 other members in Garland, Texas, where they believe God will arrive >> in a spaceship on March 31. > We will see more and more of these type groups and >organizations as we approach the year 2000. > The latest was an Edgar Cayce TV special claiming that >in 1998 was going to be all these disasters, then in 1999, >we would be hurling nuclear missiles as each other. > But for those of us that have been around, and remember >how all the experts and learned people predicted the >end of the world/armegeddon to happen no later then fall >1975, then 1979, then .....pick you date, this comes as no >surprise. > Then when the End-of-the-world doesn't happen, we >will have new dates, new groups, and new experts >extolling the various new dates. > Watch and see Robert, While I tend to agree with you about the "millinium paranoia," I don't include Edgar Cayce in those whom I label as cultists. I realize many do label the Cayce group as a cult, and by the same standards that you could call "religion" cultish, yes I guess it does fit, but based on the historical background of Edgar Cayce and the "work" he did with the sick and troubled, I personally think his name should be protected from this cult paranoia. Remember, he did all his work while he 'slept'. There were always present someone to take notes for historical reference, Doctors, to monitor his physical condition as well as the advice for medical treatment given by Cayce during his sleep states. Any time he used his gift to help others, it worked out fine. However, when he tried to use this same information to help himself, it backfired on him. He did not become a wealthy man as a result of his gift. In fact, as the program pointed out, he struggled to maintain the hospital he established to help those in need, and to support his family. I read about Edgar Cayce in the book: "THERE IS A RIVER," back in the early 70's. In fact I have a collection of books which number about 20 about Edgar Cayce and his material. I have visited the A.R.E. Headquarters in Virginia Beach, Va. It is a nice place, but not overy impressive, in my opinion. The Old Hospital is still there, but was not open to the public for touring when I was there. My wife has read and applied many of the remedies recommended by Cayce in his "Black Book," for the treatment of ailments and found them to work. I personally advised a co-worker, whose hands were covered with hundreds of "warts" to use casteroil to wash his hands in for the removal of the warts. I told him to apply the oil two to three times a day. About three months later, he approached me and showed me that ALL of the warts were gone. The have not come back!!! That was over 20 years ago!!!! The Casteroil packs work! I suggest that a person get one of his books which describes how to apply these packs and try them, before they label these treatments "cultish nonsense!" Yes, Cayce has missed many of his prophecies. Yet, he has been extremely accurate also. The man made many of his predictions in the early twenty's and thirties. Now, in the 90's we want to 'accuse' him of being a charalatan. Do as you please, but, I for one will give Edgar Cayce and his written history, the benefit of the doubt. What Edgar Cayce gave to humanity, was selfless, not selfish. He asked nothing in return. In fact, he did not want the gift he was given. Yet, he was the vehicle through which it expressed. For those who believe in Faith as expressed through the Judao, Christian, or other religions, calling these people who work within the confines of their faith "Cultists", is to me a little far fetched and judgemental. To me this implies a purely materialistic, humanist, point of view. More of an agnostic or athiestic point of view. Of course, this is just my opinion. I respect the rights of each person to have and practice their own reality, as long as they do not force that reality on others. Sharing with those who desire to be a part of a particular ideology is fine, but forcing others to accept said reality is a crime against not only that person, but society as a whole. REgards, Mike Search for other documents from or mentioning: mchristo | rgates8254 |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 26 Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:14:25 PST Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 23:21:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 01:05:13 -0800 > From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > > From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] > > Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:53:04 PST > > To: updates@globalserve.net > > Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > Jerome Clark decides to enlighten this list with his ufological > wisdom: > > For God's sake, give the guy a break. The letter is pretty > > innocuous, and for all practical purposes it amounts to no > > more than a meaningless gesture. > In that case where do I sign up? I want to be a nice guy also > like Budd and place my name and my reputation behind something > meaningless just not to offend my Brasilian hosts who paid for my > trip, and when I arrive back in the U.S. I can simply dismiss it > with the wave of a hand claiming that I did not read it in the > first place - but not make a peep about whether or not I am in > current agreement with the contents of the letter and really do > or do not support it. I kind of like that. I can have my cake and > eat it too. After all, this is ufology and not something that has > any serious meaning at all and people interested in this subject > for the most part don't exercise any critical thinking to realize > that I am having my cake and eating too by pleasing everyone: the > proponents of the letter by having signing it and the opponents > of the letter by not having read it! After all I want to be such > a nice guy like Budd knowing that such duplicitous action will be > defended by Budd's pal Jerome Clark!!! > > If this is going to be made > > into a big issue, then ufology has an even bigger death wish > > than I would have suspected. > TIME OUT! You speak of ufology has some monolithic field. Since > when has ufology ever been in such a status to have a "death > wish"? It is an impossibility for you to have any suspicions > about "ufology" because there is no such thing as ufology as some > monolithic field in the first place and it is impossible to > address it as such and make any kind of sense. No one has ever > been able to speak for ufology, and if there is one thing, one > lesson, to have been learned after 50 years is that anyone that > has ever stepped up to the podium in the past with that > presumption in mind, i.e. that they spoke for the ufo phenomenon > or ufology, got their ass chewed and dispersed into little pieces > never to be seen again. You sound like your pal James Oberg when > you group ufology as if it was some monolithic body when you > think it pleases your argument. The disaster status of ufology > has been here for decades while people like you have spewed out > their ufological wisdom, but turn their backs on critical > thinking and discernment and fail to challenge and confront the > real issue: the merry-go-round bullshit spewed out by whoever the > present day illuminaries are. It is not ufology that has ever had > a death wish, it is those that claim to speak for it that have > had that long standing death wish, as also the failure of those > to stand up against the irrationality in the subject on the > illusion that confrontation gives ufology a bad name, especially > when it involves one of the sacred cows in ufology. > > Had I been there, I probably would not have signed > > it because, for one thing, I am not a citizen of Brazil. > First, you weren't there and your statement above is totally > irrelevant. > Second, nobody asked you in the first place. It made no different > where one was from to sign the letter. A.J. Gevaerd made it very > clear and simple. Here again is that part of the post you choose > to ignore and clip in your defense of Budd's duplicitous action: > --- part of original post clipped by Jerome Clark --- > I don't hear a retraction from Budd Hopkins as we have from > others that have had an opportunity to re-evaluate the letter > after the fact. So, I gather he is in support of the Brasilia > Letter and the connotations expressed in it. > "The Brazilian UFO Comission, who hosted the Forum, asked the > support of the international UFO speakers present, representing > their local UFO communities in that action, just by signing the > document. By doing that they would make it clear that they > approve and recommend our letter." > --- A.J. Gevaerd --- > So, who does Budd Hopkins represent in the "local UFO community"? > Did someone elect him to be some kind of "ambassador" prior to > his departure to Brasil? > --- end of original post not addressed by Jerome Clak --- > > But that was Budd's call to make, and John has described > > the circumstances under which Budd put his name to it. > Paraphrasing what appears to be Budd's position: while in Brazil > I pleased my hosts by signing something I didn't bother to read, > while in America I really think my hosts were silly people for > producing such a measure, but I am not going to ask to have my > name removed, now that I have read it, since I am a very nice guy > and don't really wish to offend my silly Brasilian hosts. This > way I can have my cake and eat it too. My reward for being such a > nice guy. Only in ufology! > > End of discussion. > > Let's give this one a rest, and have a great Christmas and > > New Year, one and all. > > Jerry Clark > Okay, let's give this one a rest and return to ufology as usual. > No sense in identifying the silly day-to-day duplicity in the > world of ufology, rocking the boat, or pointing out that ufology > is a disaster as practiced today. Besides, probably hardly anyone > on this list is interested in demanding higher standards from > ufological illuminaries such as Budd Hopkins who apparently finds > it perfectly legitimate to exhibit duplicity and from Jerome > Clark who comes running to Budd's defense ignoring that any > duplicity has taken place in the first place. > May Santa bring you everything that you deserve. > Ed Stewart > PS. I think what is really needed here is a clear statement from > Budd Hopkins. Does he, or doesn't he support the Brasilia Letter > and is or is not in agreement with its contents? In spite of > Jerome Clark's plea, Hopkins' reading public deserves no less > than a clear position and not this duplicitous horseshit from > Budd! Hi, everybody, None of the above merits a serious response. I can only surmise that Mr. Stewart, who has proven he is capable of productive work when he is so inclined, has more time on his hands than most of us, and a lot less compassion in his heart. I was simply suggesting that understanding, always to be preferred to self-righteous, finger-jabbing ranting, is called for in the case of the less-than-burning issue of who did or who did not sign the Brazilian letter, or why. Have a happy New Year, Ed and all of the rest of you, whether you did or did not sign the Brasilia manifesto. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 26 Re: Help needed (Moore's docs on green fireballs) From: Edoardo Russo <edoardo.russo@torino.ALPcom.it> Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 17:18:27 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 23:22:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Help needed (Moore's docs on green fireballs) Hello friends! May I ask for another bit of help from you? Italian researcher Giuseppe Stilo is completing a work on the green fireballs over the South-western USA in the late '40s. We got most available sources on that (from FBI files to Project Twinkle, from IUR articles to MUFON Symposium proceedings), but we could not get copy of any of Bill Moore's FWP documents on that subject. Is there anybody able to let us have copy of it? Thanks in advance
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 27 Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 12:57:12 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:34:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 01:05:13 -0800 > From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > > From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] > > Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:53:04 PST > > To: updates@globalserve.net > > Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > Jerome Clark decides to enlighten this list with his ufological > wisdom: > > For God's sake, give the guy a break. The letter is pretty > > innocuous, and for all practical purposes it amounts to no > > more than a meaningless gesture. ---Everything else snipped because it is so damned meaningless, childish, and irrelevant.--- I don't know how to say it differently, Ed. All the clipped ranting and raving you dumped on us was shallow, trivial, liturgical, rhetorical. It contributed nothing of substance to me at least. Empty aruments over definitions and authorities. Denigrations of other peoples contributions. Is this what you consider valuable in this broad area under the diffused title of Ufology? If not, just what do you consider valuable or important? Not what or who drives you to despondency, rather what fascinates you, intrigues you, grabs the depth of your curiosity and wonder? For instance, for me: My Occam's Razor easily cuts to support of the ETH. Such that I am not driven to trace investigations and witness stories or historical research. I am far more fascinted with the individual and social response to the possibility of and manifestations of the ET presence. (Hmmm, perhaps I should be more grateful for your archtypical expression of the shallow antagonistic rant.) Still, I am more enthralled by our collected responses to the beyond-reality experiences than to the beyond-reality phenomena themselves. As an example: My friends and neighbors are uninterested and perhaps in some ways annoyed by my interest in the ETH. Yet they surprised me completely yesterday by giving me, as a Christmas gift, "The UFO Book" by Jerome Clark. Needless to say, it was totally unexpected. However, it did show a certain tolerance in the views of some people. "The UFO Book" is well presented, accessible, and readable. Good job, Jerry. I find reference books more valuable than collections of incidences. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ed Stewart egs@netcom.com | So Man, who here seems principal alone, > There is Something | Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. > Going On! ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, > Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) | 'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. > --------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man ------- How strange this quote in your signature becomes Ed in light of the rant it terminates. Have you lost sight of the fact that the individauls and their actions that you struggle so strongly with are but a small part and not a whole? In the future, whatever become the common and broadly accepted answers to the questions we find so esoteric and unfathomable today will have little in common with our expectations. So Ed, what fascinates you? What questions are you endeavoring to answer? Bye... Ted..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 27 Costa Rica Sighting From: "Len Fedullo" <lenf1@snip.net> Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:51:50 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:49:22 -0500 Subject: Costa Rica Sighting Errol, I thought that your readers might be interested in this recent siting in Costa Rica. The story is from CNN. Len Fedullo ************************************************************** CNN Interactive Dec. 27, 1997 >> 2:06 am GMT Unidentified Flying Objects Spotted Over Costa Rica. Itar-Tass 26-DEC-97 MEXICO CITY, December 26 (Itar-Tass) - The Costa Rican mass media reported on Thursday that unidentified flying objects were spotted the day before in the country's air space over Golfito district, which is 330 kilometres to the south of San Jose. However, TV cameramen were unable to film them as they did on Monday. On December 22 cameramen from two local television channels filmed at least a dozen "flying saucers" in the sky south of the Costa Rican capital. Before the eyes of hundreds of people, they made zigzag maneuvers for several minutes. Flight controllers of the International Juan Santamaria Airport counted "approximately fifty thousand traces" of their movements. Some car drivers stopped to watch the phenomenon. According to Ufologist Carlos Vilchez, most remarkable is the fact that these UFOs appeared in daytime, that they were seen by hundreds of people and were filmed by TV cameramen. He also expressed the view that an influx of UFOs into the air space of this Central American country could be expected within the next two months. About ten "saucers" were watched by hundreds of people over San Jose exactly one month ago. They flew over the city for several minutes. They were also filmed by TV cameramen. Scientists have not found any explanations for this phenomenon.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 27 Skywatch: Filer's Files #51 From: "Skywatch International" <SKYWATCH> To: "(list #1)" Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 07:32:54 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:54:09 -0500 Subject: Skywatch: Filer's Files #51 Filer's Files #51 MUFON Skywatch Investigations From George A. Filer: MUFON Eastern Director, Dec. 25 Majorstar@aol.com (609) 654-0020 UFO sightings are down sharply in December indicating crews are enjoying the holidays. NEW HAMPSHIRE: Case 97/11/3: MUFON Investigators Frank Coviello Jr. and Sandra Black were departing from her home in Stewartstown on 3 November at approximately 9:00 p.m.. They noticed a large star above the horizon, that they thought at first was the star Antares. Then, the object blacked out and appeared a little to the right in a ruby red in color. Susan ran to get binoculars so they could get a closer look. Both witnesses then saw the object rise and move closer to them. They also noticed very unusual lightning light up the night sky. It was a strange mixture of lights resembling a mix of Northern lights and regular lightning. When the sky glowed white, Frank was able to see that the UFO was triangle shaped with the corners angled off. There was a red light on top of the craft and three white strobing lights along the center. Frank also noticed two "projectiles" emitted from the object. The first went up on a sharp angle and then descended. The second projectile went across the horizon at an faster rate compared with a nearby jet plane. Frank and Susan watched the UFO for 10 minutes. The Manchester Union Leader of Friday, December 5, 1997, reported on a couple who spotted a very bright light moving from the south toward Hooksett. One of the witnesses said, "You could bundle five airplanes together and it wouldn't come close to that much light." The sighting lasted about a minute. Bright lights were observed for two days over Hookset, on 3 and 4 December. One woman watched the lights hover and suddenly take off. There were two independent sightings of the same object. PENNSYLVANIA TWO NEW UFO SIGHTINGS On Tuesday, December 16, 1997, at 8:00 p.m., Kevin L. spotted a large triangular UFO in the skies above his hometown of Allison Park, Pennsylvania on the William Flinn Highway (Route 8) just north of Pittsburgh. "My best description of color would be a dark classical gray," Kevin reported. "There were six large lights on the outer rim of the object. The two lights at the point of the (triangular) objet were red, while the others on the corners were white. The lights on the object were not very bright compared to what you see on aircraft--they looked more like a glow. "The object was in constant motion. It basically looked like a great granite slab crossing the sky. My best guess was that the object was at 5,000 feet. "I looked at it through a pair of binoculars that were 7 x 35mm and rated for a view area of 578 feet at 1,000 yards. The object took up about one-half of the view of the binoculars at full magnification." Kevin estimated that the UFO approached Allison Park from the east at about 70 degrees above the horizon. The object then "headed off in a northwesterly direction. This is an unusual route for air traffic. The Pittsburgh airport is 25 miles southwest of my house. When I first saw the object, it was already one- quarter of the way across (the sky) from the horizon. I could see it clearly for about one minute, after that it was too small to see any real details." As the UFO left, Kevin estimated that it was headed for the Franklin Park section of Pittsburgh and nearby Marshall township. (E-mail Interview) On December 2, 1997, at 11:33 p.m., Brian C. was driving west on Interstate Highway 76, the Schuylkill Expressway, just west of Philadelphia. As his car approached the West Manayunk exit (Belmont Avenue-), he noticed "a green light with my peripheral vision to the right of my car out the passenger side window. My initial reaction was that I thought it was a helicopter. Air traffic copters often fly up the Schuykill River for their reports. Almost as quickly, I realized how fast it was moving, because it shot straight up the river parallel to the highway and no more than 300 feet in altitude." "The whole incident took no more than five seconds," Brian added. "There was no tracer following, no smoke or trail of any kind...It could not have been a meteor because it was so low and flew straight across at a consistent height." (Many thanks to Tim Hagemeister of NACOMM and UFO Roundup Vol 2, # 49 12/21/97 Editor: Joseph Trainor for this report.) GREENLAND Last week we reported that a giant meteor lit up a large area of the Atlantic Ocean around Greenland on December 9, 1997, at 5:15 a.m. Fishermen aboard the motor vessels Halton Trawl and Regina C. cruising off the eastern coast of Greenland heard a faint rumbling sound. Looking west, they spied "a giant flash split the darkness." The bright flash was also seen by fishermen aboard the Timmarut, a Danish motor trawler moored in Greenland's Julianehaab Bay. "The glow lit up the whole ice cap," Jens P., one of the fishermen, said. A parking lot surveillance camera in Nuuk, the Danish territory's capital on Greenland's west coast, "also recorded a brief illumination at that time." Scientific analysis of the data indicates, " the flash was so huge that we have good reason to believe that this was a giant meteor," said Bjoern Franck Jorgenson of the Tycho Brahe Planetarium in Copenhagen, Denmark. "Jorgenson said it was probably a 'one-piece, solid meteor' that exploded. Most meteors travel at more than 7,400 miles per hour and explode or break up as they enter the atmosphere," the Reuters report noted. Scientists at the Niels Bohr Institute at the University of Copenhagen and the Tycho Brahe Planetarium estimated that the meteor struck the Greenland ice cap at a point 50 kilometers (30 miles) northeast of Narsarsuaq airport. The meteor "can be compared to the Kap York meteorite," which fell in "Melville Bay, Sassivik, south of Thule." "The flashes observed with the meteorite were so bright as to turn night into day at a distance of 100 kilometers and can be compared to the light of a nuclear explosion in the atmosphere. However, we stress that there is no reason to believe (the flashes) were other than natural causes." The institute reported a strange discrepancy in the incident, however. The "meteor" crashed no later than 5:15 a.m. Greenland time or 8:15 a.m. UTC time. Yet, six minutes later, at 8:21 a.m. UTC, a "seismic disturbance," attributed to the meteor, was recorded at Svalbard, Norway. Two minutes later, at 8:23 a.m. UTC, a second "shock wave" was recorded by the seismic detectors at Finmarca, Norway. The readings were announced by the Norwegian Seismic Agency at Kjeller. Similar readings were taken in Finland and Germany. Yet, according to the Institute, there were no readings of a "shock wave" or "seismic disturbance" at Danmarkshavn and Sonder Stromfjord, Greenland only 380 miles (608 kilometers) west of the meteor strike zone. Although grounded by a severe blizzard on Monday, December 11, planes of the Danish Air Force continued their search for the meteor crater. It has not yet been found. (Many thanks to the Geophysical Dept. at the Niels Bohr Institute and the Tycho Brahe Planetarium for the news release.) UNITED KINGDOM Miles Johnston, BUFORA sent the following report: On Monday, December 8, 1997, at 1415 hours, a British Midland 737 flying from London Heathrow to Belfast International, had a 2,000 foot long, cigar shaped UFO maneuver 150 miles off its starboard wing. It was a very long, black, thin vehicle,. with a very bright white tip. It moved at all times very slowly, but was of considerable size. Relative width to length ratio about 20:1. Seen almost on the horizon, approximately at the same height as the aircraft (33,000). Aircraft position, approximately over Liverpool. Object was seen directly at right angle to its course. This would position the UFO approximately over Yorkshire. The object was observed by a passenger on the plane, for 15 minutes. The aircraft was flying due North west, from London to Belfast, Northern Ireland. Conditions:- Heavy thick cloud base, below the aircraft would have made sighting of this object from the ground impossible. The aircraft was 60-% along its usual flight path, when it made a very unusual climb seemingly to avoid the object which was initially moving in a potentially interception course. However the object maintained its position, over Yorkshire area, and steered a slow course in and around that region. After 15 minutes the object simply flew in an easterly direction, into very high cloud. over that region. At all times the object was visible in bright clear sunlight, high above the low level cloud base. Thanks to Miles Johnston, BUFORA. Editor's Note: Significant sightings of large mother ships are frequently followed by numerous UFO reports. WASHINGTON The Associated Press on December 16, 1997, announced that most Americans believe there is life on other planets. Most of those who think that way say life out there probably is more intelligent than anything down here on Earth. Scientists promoting the effort to detect signals from outer space were quick to cheer. Marist Institute conducted the Public Opinion Poll. "I'm happy to hear that the mainstream and I have similar views," said Paul Horowitz, a professor of physics at Harvard who directs a project that operates a 250-million-channel receiver listening for signals from space. "It could be that the American people are taking two and two and coming up with four," said Brian Welch, a spokesman for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. The telephone survey of 935 adults asked, "Do you think there is intelligent life on other planets?" Sixty percent of the respondents said yes; 40 percent said no. Marist researchers then asked those who said yes if they thought life on other planets was "more, less, or about as intelligent as human life on Earth." The aliens came out ahead, with 47 percent of those who believe in life on other plants saying they thought extraterrestrial life was more intelligent, 13 percent said less intelligent and 40 percent said it was about the same. By a margin of 86 to 14, people said they thought galactic neighbors are friendly rather than hostile. Despite the positive expectation of otherworldly life, the survey found Americans divided on spending for the space program. Forty-seven percent said the government was spending too much, 43 percent said funding was about right and 10 percent said it was too low. Asked if they thought the space program was a good investment, 45 percent said yes and 55 percent said the money would be better spent on other programs. The survey was conducted October 5-7, and the results had a margin of error of 3.5 percentage points. Broken down by age, people from 18 through 60 were strongly supportive of the idea of life on other planets. But people older than 60 rejected the idea by a margin of 67 to 33. "The subject has moved a lot in just the last couple of years, said Louis Friedman, executive director of the Planetary Society, whose 100,000 members are strong advocates of continuing research into the possibility of life in outer space. Horowitz said researchers are "riding along on this wave of technological innovation." He said that his project listens on 250million channels simultaneously. The first serious search for signals from space was in 1960 and had just one channel, he said. Thanks to John Thompson, GA State Director. NORAD: NORAD reports tracking Santa on Christmas. COLORADO SPRINGS, Colorado. (AFNS) -- For 40 years, American and Canadian personnel in the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) have followed Santa Claus on Christmas Eve as he delivered gifts to the children of North America and the world. The children of Canada and the United States of America once again were able to get progress reports telling them of Santa's flight path from the North Pole to their countries. Using ground-based radars and satellites in space, NORAD scanned the skies of northern Canada and Alaska and detected Santa taking off from his North Pole workshop. He took off a few minutes earlier this year and delivered toys to the children in Japan and China and worked across the world in the various time zones. He works at a fantastic pace spending only a few seconds at each house. Numerous children called the NORAD Command Post receiving data on Santa's progress on Christmas Eve through each time zone. (719) 474-1110. The tradition of tracking Santa Claus started in 1955 with continental Air Defense Command, headquartered in Colorado Springs. A misprint in a local store's newspaper advertisement resulted in children calling in to the commander in chief's "Hot Line." The line was flooded with calls so the director of operations, Col. Harry Shoup, decided to respond to the children's queries. The staff jumped in and handled all the calls as they came in. The duty crew drew a picture of Santa and his reindeer-drawn sleigh on its display of North America, and a tradition was born. The calls are answered by volunteers who work in various work centers in Cheyenne Mountain and NORAD headquarters. These civilian and military people answer all calls with a personalized report, thus adding a human dimension to the program. Thanks to Skywatch and AFNS Colorado Springs, Colorado For all our On-line friends: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Regards, George and Janet Filer _________________________________________________________________ ___________ SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL Administrative: 4757 E. Greenway Rd. Suite #103-84 Phoenix, AZ 85032 USA Membership: PO Box 801 Leander, TX 78646-0801 USA _________________________________________________________________ ___________ Skywatch International and this list service are not responsible for authenticity of posts "What could be stranger than the truth?" Public Services List Postings: Skywatch_ok@msn.com Page of the Executive Director: http://members.aol.com/starmanbh/swi.htm Page of the Executive Director of Communications: http://www.itlnet.net/web/skywatch/oklahoma.html Page of the Executive Director of Finance: http://www.freeyellow.com/members/pappie/index.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 27 Back Stabbing From: Ufojoe1 <Ufojoe1@aol.com> [Joe Murgia] Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:45:14 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:50:48 -0500 Subject: Back Stabbing I joined this list because of all the impressive names that subscribed to it. I figured I could learn a lot of things with regards to ufology as well as being able to ask questions of some of the more knowledgeable people on the list. Unfortunately, as it turns out, most of the messages on this list are dedicated to slamming individuals in the field of ufology and people on this list. It's so disappointing that this is what this list has turned out to be. When I talked to a new friend of mine recently (This guy has helped the CSETI group with some of their work), he and I agreed that the biggest problem besides all of the government secrecy is the ufology groups themselves. Can't you people see how unproductive it is to do the things that you do? It's non- stop bickering and back stabbing back and forth. I feel like I'm back in high school! This fellow and I didn't discuss how CSETI was the best group out there. We discussed all of the theories and diffeerent cases that are being talked about right now and we both shared our open views on the possibilities of each story being true or untrue. The thing is, we didn't spend our time attacking anybody. We both agreed that cases like Corso and Shulman sound interesting but only time will tell if either one is totaly truthful or they're both full of you know what. He knows that Corso's facts don't all check but we need to wait and investigate more before we label his story (and Birnes') a fabrication. The worst thing is the way everybody attacks each other on the list. I'm 32 years old and I might have written some nasty emails too when I was 21 or so. Back then, my immaturity would have gotten the best of me but now I know better. How old are most of the people on this list? I'm very curious to find out. My main complaint is the amount of time put into the attacks of each other. I feel like I'm wasting my time even reading these posts. When I start reading a post, I hope that there wil be good information in it but usually I'm disappointed to find only personal attacks and insults instead. Oh well, enough of my complaining. This will probably be my last post to this list and I'll probably quit the list and concentrate on making my time more productive. It's too bad because there are some really smart people on this list and I was hoping to learn a lot. I respect all of the opinions on this list, but I just can't handle all of the bickering anymore. Unless we become united, nothing will get done. And I do feel like egos, jealousy and envy has been the main reason for all of the disjointedness that has been seen among everybody involved in ufology. What a great power we would be if we would all just concentrate on getting to the truth and forcing our government to come clean. Maybe that's too much to ask for. Is it? Joe Murgia Tampa, Florida
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 27 Re: Skywatch: Filer's Files #51 From: "Keith Wyatt" <kewyatt@teleport.com> Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 23:11:20 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:55:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Skywatch: Filer's Files #51 >From: "Skywatch International" <SKYWATCH> To: "(list #1)" ><skywatch_ok@msn.com> >Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 07:32:54 +0000 >Subject: Filer's Files #51 > GREENLAND > Last week we reported that a giant meteor lit up a large area of > the Atlantic Ocean around Greenland on December 9, 1997, at 5:15 > a.m. Fishermen aboard the motor vessels Halton Trawl and Regina C. > cruising off the eastern coast of Greenland heard a faint rumbling > sound. Looking west, they spied "a giant flash split the > darkness." The bright flash was also seen by fishermen aboard the > Timmarut, a Danish motor trawler moored in Greenland's Julianehaab > Bay. "The glow lit up the whole ice cap," Jens P., one of the > fishermen, said. A parking lot surveillance camera in Nuuk, the > Danish territory's capital on Greenland's west coast, "also > recorded a brief illumination at that time." Scientific analysis > of the data indicates, " the flash was so huge that we have good > reason to believe that this was a giant meteor," said Bjoern Franck > Jorgenson of the Tycho Brahe Planetarium in Copenhagen, Denmark. > "Jorgenson said it was probably a 'one-piece, solid meteor' > that exploded. Most meteors travel at more than 7,400 miles per > hour and explode or break up as they enter the atmosphere," the > Reuters report noted. Scientists at the Niels Bohr Institute at the > University of Copenhagen and the Tycho Brahe Planetarium estimated > that the meteor struck the Greenland ice cap at a point 50 > kilometers (30 miles) northeast of Narsarsuaq airport. The meteor > "can be compared to the Kap York meteorite," which fell in "Melville > Bay, Sassivik, south of Thule." "The flashes observed with the > meteorite were so bright as to turn night into day at a distance of > 100 kilometers and can be compared to the light of a nuclear > explosion in the atmosphere. However, we stress that there is no > reason to believe (the flashes) were other than natural causes." > The institute reported a strange discrepancy in the incident, > however. The "meteor" crashed no later than 5:15 a.m. Greenland > time or 8:15 a.m. UTC time. Yet, six minutes later, at 8:21 a.m. > UTC, a "seismic disturbance," attributed to the meteor, was > recorded at Svalbard, Norway. Two minutes later, at 8:23 a.m. UTC, > a second "shock wave" was recorded by the seismic detectors at > Finmarca, Norway. The readings were announced by the Norwegian > Seismic Agency at Kjeller. Similar readings were taken in Finland > and Germany. Yet, according to the Institute, there were no > readings of a "shock wave" or "seismic disturbance" at Danmarkshavn > and Sonder Stromfjord, Greenland only 380 miles (608 kilometers) > west of the meteor strike zone. Although grounded by a severe > blizzard on Monday, December 11, planes of the Danish Air Force > continued their search for the meteor crater. It has not yet been > found. (Many thanks to the Geophysical Dept. at the Niels Bohr > Institute and the Tycho Brahe Planetarium for the news release.) I believe NORAD will have the Data for the impact point of this meteor. If they can track a scud missle launch in Iraq they can certainly pinpoint the impact zone. Could someone in the scientific community please follow this up. Keith Wyatt -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNKSqAeK7pQznHaMtAQHh/wP/dNQOZ7fYE0ShSYosSaSzlyA2iMJrTvRC MXNAI1GxTCmfTnbeEaTzScLtAilCFfGVeVaoOgVNIVThsbMN0tLavEOzv3naomRq lGo4YU+RAOt81Pif0L0Z+PONDyGrCA5vM7owKKwEA6cpYIqZRBTEmvYoLYL83kHx 05Wy7xkGpLM= =hB6a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------ Keith Wyatt http://www.teleport.com/~kewyatt Art Bell Fans Mail List Operator http://www.teleport.com/~abellfan/abellfan.html ------------------------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 27 Hindu Mythology & Eth, Sun-discs, etc. From: wlmss@pegasus.com.au [Lawrie Williams] Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 21:23:30 +1000 (GMT+1000) Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:06:40 -0500 Subject: Hindu Mythology & Eth, Sun-discs, etc. > Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:07:23 -0800 (PST) > From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: ETH [Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis] > He spoke of Hinduism as being quite monolithic in its basics, > though the various gods/goddesses who are recognized depend upon > local beliefs...... > Hinduism's Shiva (Destroyer God) portion of their Trinity isn't > comparable to Christianity's "devil," but perhaps someone on the > List will let me know if, among their many minor gods, a few > would be treated like they were devils, and UFO entities equated > to them..... Hindu Cosmology in Review ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - Background - The world was remade c. 4000 bc by a close encounter with a mass of cometary debris that gassed the world with CO and generated such massive oceanic tidal surges that essentially civilization was sent back to scratch. Small pockets of human survivors then emerged to re-populate the world. I see that mainstream science has just started to recognize this seriously. I wrote about a big dark comet apparently coming in 1994, before HB was reported. If anything, some forms of UFO's at least are very likely to be related to ancient high tech civilizations. Anyway, for the massive destruction of Bronze Age Civilizations (perhaps by the debris in the wake of HB) see: http://ccf.arc.nasa.gov/sst/icons/ from the Asteroid and Comet Impact Hazard Page, hope I quoted it right, if not the title will find it. With so much periodic destruction the ET hypothesis has grown beyond isolation in UFOlogy, these major astronomically related events compromised the ecology of the world and may have sent civilizations hither & yon or prevented marauders from settling thither. As you may all know, we are now passing into the zone of danger since we are less than 0.1 AU (at 9 million miles) from the path recently taken by HB. It was giving off a million tons of CO a day not long ago and probably has been doing so for thousands of years, not to mention the CO2, H20 HCN and graphite. Anyway, by Jan 4 every year from now on we might have the inception of a new "twelve days of Xmas" when to put a charm on the crossing they hung up gold and silver ornaments for protection. Quaint, huh? Luckily the Satas are up there though, in their giant triangular things with red lights, so our pine decorations are accurate right down to the sharp pine needles, and then there are the gifts. So no need for gloom, the arc has been sent as a sign that we will be saved from the rapture (euphoria of CO poisoning) and the babel effect (speech centre damage from CO). Dear friends, please note that the real crackpots out there say the same things, but they never seem to get the probable dates right. : ) I do urge one and all to keep your houses as airtight as possible for the next month. Just to be sure. After all comets do not cause disasters. They *presage* them. They are recorded in history, like UFO's, but until now the scientific establishment has virtually ignored their relevance to life down here. The second last one was a dooley, that was when it seems the world was remade - or "made" like you "make" your bed - in about 4000 bc. And as is recorded, the Varginha amphibians, the Dogon "Nommos" characterized by Berossus' "Oannes" mentioned by Robert Temple - it was they who did a re-boot to get humans back into production again. Gen 1:1 in the original Greek: "In the beginning was the Nommos." OK. Now, on to Hinduism. "Nu" the smart-fish (Hence Moses, Muses &tc) is represented in India as Vishnu, according to the people of pre 3000 bp. From somewhere came a group of people who built big burial mounds. We call them the Kurgars, the burial mound people. Their language we now call Proto-Indo-European. Maybe they originated in Northern Europe, since words like "beech tree" occur. Yet there is no word for "Oak tree", but then Oak was especially sacred in later societies, so the word for "Oak" may never have been uttered in secular company. It is likely these tribal people had specific animal moities, such that people were divided into groupings that identified with, and protected, particular creatures. From the wide plains of the Russian steppes the Kurgars started to move into the Danube region between 4000bc and 3500bc. Some went westwards and Germanic, Greek, Italic, Baltic and Celtic were amongst the languages that evolved. Others went south-east and Indo-Iranian and Indo-Aryan were spoken. This last language group is also called Sanskrit. Four sacred texts were written in Vedic, an early form of Sanskrit. Some claim this took place as early as 3000 BC. The text was probably orally transmitted until perhaps 1000 bc when it was written down. At this time there came about a great resurgence of civilization, most of the traces of which have since been hidden by rising sea levels and by later cultural imperialism in China, Europe and the Americas. For instance the Phacaeans or Phonecians traded between the British Isles and beyond the Indian sub-continent, no doubt transmitting metaphysical ideas back and forth. Thus at this time there were ongoing processes of both differentiation and consolidation, just as there are today. - Belief Systems - At about this time the Vedas were adopted into the Upanishads and became the Vedanta, the basis of a distinctly Hindu monistic philosophy. Over the following 1000 years a variety of derivative metaphysical belief systems also were set down: Buddhism and Jainism in the east, the Greek, Judaic, Christian and Islamic sacred myths in the west, to mention a few of the bastrdized variations on the gods-in-the-heavens demons-in-the-earth theme. Each new belief system seemed to lose in detail and quality yet they clearly derive from a common lineage. e.g. "To those who.... worship me with love, I give them the understanding by which they can come to me." So says Krishna in Bhagavad-gita 10:10. Yet we can find similar sentiments attributed to Christ, with similar allusions in both sets of writings to the washing of feet, the exorcism of demons, eternal life, virgin birth &tc &tc - all written at least a thousand years earlier in India. Much of the material of other religions is incomprehensible to Westerners steeped in the limited outlook and symbology of Judaism and Christianity. The data suffers from being no better than the best translation that can be effected by people who have not directly experienced or studied modern esoteric phenomena. And far be it from me to say the Emperor wears no clothes, but the cant of the Big Religions never did make any sense. If ancient people were approached by shining craft, why is there no record of it? Well, there is. In many cultures they were called "sun discs" because of the resemblance to the only other brightly shining object seen in the sky - and in deference to the fact that you could get sunburnt! The mythical Jesus called out for Helios ("Eli") the Greek sun god as he died, for instance. Much of the information is also cloaked in what we today would call puns and sight gags. Arjuna is depicted with a hundred hands. His equivalent in the west is the Hecaton-cheires, literally "hundred hands" but maybe also "He-Ka-tan cheiros" or "the He-god Ka of the high light with gifts". And remember this list has a first hand witness that this process occurs, for they spoke to me, offering gifts, or so it seems. Social changes did not eliminate the ancient animal moities. In the sacred writings of the Hindus the prefix "go" can mean "cow", "thought" and "land" and it is taught that all 3 are sacred. All give "milk" in life but are not to be destroyed prematurely for whatever reason. - The Hindu ETH - According to Hinduism, life on this world and on myriads of others both on this plane and on others was engendered and is still oversighted by Brahma, the son of the creator-god of the multiverse and a personality who is billions of years old. From time to time things break down. At these times there is a surplus of demons and they burden the very Earth herself. When this occurs, Brahma calls upon Vishnu to set things straight: "Whenever and wherever there is a decline in devotional practice... at that time I descend myself." - Vishnu, Fish-god from Heaven - Vishnu is seen as having a life-giving and protective role. He deals with other entities such as the Asuras who challenge the gods and cause problems for humans. The interactions between Vishnu and the Demons are extraordinarily complex and reflect a long human effort to comprehend observed phenomena. Vishnu and his wide Shri are depicted in one traditional image with what appears to be three UFO's hovering above their heads, each of a slightly different shape. They are like the "discus" held by Hera, wife of Zeus in the Greek pantheon. Vishnu comes in ten manifestations or Avatars: 1 Matsya as a fish protects man. This correlates with the Oannes of Berossus (Sumeria), the Dogon's "Nommos" or "intelligent fish". c.f. In the original Greek: Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning was the Nommos." (See also Varginha. Yes, I mentioned it in the intro too, but it is worth repeating, since it is the joke of the millennium, Xianity, Judaism AND Islam worship "One God" which is really an agency or civilization which is represented by a menagerie of extraordinary ET's. 2 Kurma the tortoise supports Mount Mandara on his back while the ocean was churned. The churning was done to make the world produce elixir as well as jewels and herbs for the Demigods to gather for Vishnu. 3 Varaha the boar used his tusk to raise the Earth/Woman back up out of the water. This seems like a rather earthy metaphor for a breeding program to genetically enhance humankind. Other hindu "myths" point towards the woman turning into an animal form and escaping the attentions of the demigods, thus bringing creatures part-man and part-god into the world. 4 Narasimha is the man-lion who has the task of killing the invulnerable demon Hiranyakashipu. When he is abroad Narashima comes out to disembowel him on his own veranda. The Greek war goddess "Athena" contains in her name a sacred pun (diabolic entendre?) for "lion" as in roaring, dominance, swiftness, virility, golden-ness, strength and ability to inflict puncture wounds. 5 Vamana is Vishnu's dwarf form. He begs from the demon Bali all the land he can cover in three strides - and then grows into a giant and thus wins back the world. (I suspect that the diminutive nordics are either the neotonic or the juvenile form of the 6-7' Yowie/Bigfoot form. anatomically distinct from Homo sapiens. We are known as the "fire-monkey" to the "demons" and as the "hand-monkey" to the "gods".) 6 Parashurama kills the hundred-armed Arjuna with his axe. 7-Ra-ma, known in the west amongst other things as Maria. Until the giant temple-abbatoir on the hilltop at Eleusis was destroyed by christians, she visited the Hellenic world. The females in Zeus's family were a sharing lot, since encounter theology points to it being the temple of Artemis, but Hera and Demeter were also involved. (The Christian "Maria" is a take-off from Demeter, the dark goddess, whose chariot is tended by horses and dragons.) 8 Krishna, the most cunning manifestation of exotic technolog, and it is all done with Mirrors, see 7. 9 The Buddah misleads the sinful to ensure their punishment. Buddhist scriptures give detailed accounts of the torment of sinners at the hands of demons. (Significantly the methods of inflicting pain in the east reflect eastern torture methods, the ancient western experiences reflect Roman torture methods and modern experiences reflect medical procedures.) 10 Kalkin will come on a white horse to start a new era, indeed some think he is a horse. i.e. an empowered human. At the last churning of the world, done with a serpent, the asuras (demons or spirits) pulled at one end and the devas (gods or fairies) at the other, but Vishnu let the devas get away with the goodies. Rahu got a drop that fell to earth but he got decapitated. (1) - Bhaumasura vs Krishna - The explanation for the existence of the Krishna phenomenon: "To reduce the burden of the world". In Hindu mythology there are people called the Saddhu. They are people who are on the "transcendental platform". In a typical turn of interpretation, it is said to be a gift from Krishna that some will fail in material life, the better that they prosper in spiritual pursuits. Oh joy. In Hindu religious practice, "abductees" get special protection. Potential spirit mediums are highly vulnerable in a world that often denies these phenomena and fails to offer most of them the least preparation for the bewildering experiences that are in store. Not so in Hinduism, where all human variations are recognized, respected and catered to. Some entities are seen as friendly but some are not. Krishna comes to vanquish the Demons that assail the Sadhus. He delivers both Demons and Sadhus, saving both from the eternal bondage of life after life in this multiverse. Goodness, Passion and Ignorance fetter the soul. For these who have already abandoned these limitations, Krishna works to perplex, bewilder, enhance and enlighten them. Krisna can appear as a small child and play with other children. Or he can come as an adult. These are his pastimes, to appear and vanish at will, in a multiplicity of forms. He does this out of choice, not out of any duty of obligation. I spoke with him via a trance medium in 1995 - a busy year for me esoterically! - and he said there are currently foiurty-something manifestations of himself active. (Take it or leave it, I am not going to try to defend spiritism here, I know little about its tenets but can only say my observations tally with theirs so far.) The demon Baumasura once kidnapped sixteen thousand, one hundred and eight girls. Krsna went to the demon's palace and vanquished him. But the girls were not able to return to their father's homes, for they had been dishonoured. So Krishna married them all, splitting into 16108 independent manifestations of a husband for them. Perhaps while in a lucent state in the company with this familiar spirit, chupas come in the window to do the dirty work. The pattern I have started to discern is of a considerable number of these entities each interacting through a number of people, mostly originally child abductees it seems. It is amusing that the one I chatted with is clearly the archetype for the christian hero cult stuff centered around ole JC and yet the entity himself seemed to have a *very* low opinion of said religion! : ) None of this is new. Many people do not have an Arnold Rimmer type hologram for a companion but they do have a friendly advising voice in their head. It is not a new phenomenon and it is hardly a sign of madness or intellectual disability, for Socrates had such a spirit companion, as have many others since. - Summary - If this pattern holds true for modern abductees some will find themselves with a seemingly solid and real companion who will be imperceptible to everyone else. You can apparrently perform some interesting tricks with billion-year-old technology. Time will soon tell. Spirit mediums like Jane Roberts have reported this. Sounds like a neat cure for overpopulation! Imagine a companion who is all you could want in a person, yet consumes nothing but butterfat. Any would-be Saddhu reading this might try this procedure. Find a quiet spot that is identifiably sacred. Meditate there daily. If possible spend all your time there for a week or more. Try to release all the shackles of the outer world and its affairs. According to many religious and cultural belief systems, an entity may come to you. It will depend on your inner symbology who or what you might see. Lawrie Williams_____________ 1. "World Mythology" ed. Roy Willis publ. Duncan Baird London 1993 Page 76 of this book illustrates this pantheon. The devas are shown with dark blue skin. Vishnu is jet black. The 3 UFO's are in this image. 2. Srimad-Bhagavatum.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 27 Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 09:03:38 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:16:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 12:57:12 -0800 > From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] Ted Viens makes the following point in his defense of duplicity in ufology by quoting Jerome Clark: > > > For God's sake, give the guy a break. The letter is pretty > > > innocuous, and for all practical purposes it amounts to no > > > more than a meaningless gesture. > ---Everything else snipped because it is so damned meaningless, > childish, and irrelevant.--- Apparently style in communications is more of an important issue than obvious duplicitous action with the questions such action brings to an individual's character and integrity in this false gestalt that has been dubbed as ufology. So far, both Jerome Clark and now Ted Viens have made it perfectly clear that their sensibilities have been shaken by the lack of Ed Stewart's style, and that such lack of style makes the real issue of duplicity not worthy of a response. The arrogance of this position speaks volumes of the present status of ufological wisdom and why there is so much lack of respect for ufological wisdom in the real world. So, what is duplicity? Webster gives various definitions: 1. contradictory doubleness of thought, speech, or action; esp: the belying of one's true intentions by deceptive words or actions. 2. the quality or state of being double or twofold. 3. the technically incorrect use of two or more distinct items (as claims, charges, or defenses) in a single legal action. Now, I pointed out that Budd Hopkins' "explanations" for signing the Brasilia Letter were duplicitous and that the best think for Budd Hopkins to do was to make a statement clearing up the obvious duplicity left by his contradictory remarks after the fact of signing. Both Jerome Clark and Ted Viens have found my observation to not only lack merit and relevance by totally ignoring the contention of duplicity, but in both their ufological wisdom found it necessary to focus their remarks (a distraction from the real issue) on my style of communications as the relevant and important issue here. What is wrong with this picture? > I don't know how to say it differently, Ed. All the clipped > ranting and raving you dumped on us was shallow, trivial, > liturgical, rhetorical. Okay, so this year I won't be nominated for a Pulitzer. Now, what about the duplicity issue I raised? In your ufological wisdom, are you going to ignore it because I am not a Pulitzer candidate? > It contributed nothing of substance to > me at least. Empty aruments over definitions and authorities. > Denigrations of other peoples contributions. Okay, now what about the duplicity issue I raised? In your ufological wisdom, are you going to ignore it? Or are you stating that there was no duplicity as defined above in Budd Hopkins remarks once he got back to the US over the Brasilia Letter? Or are you stating that there was duplicity, but it is perfectly okay to overlook it in the world of ufological wisdom and any messenger that brings it to the forefront is not making a contribution worthy of response? > Is this what you > consider valuable in this broad area under the diffused title of > Ufology? YES, AN EMPHATIC YES. There are no standards of evidence and no standards of conduct in this arena. That has to change. The present practice of ufological wisdom is to simply ignore the improprieties when they occur in the hope that they go away unoticed and be forgotten and not to ask for clarification. That is exactly what you and Jerome Clark are doing here. Is there any wonder that outside this field, ufological wisdom is a laughing stock in the real world? Ufology refuses to clean itself up and tries to cover its own undisclipline by involking dark conspiracies keeping the "truth" away. Yet, it won't lift a finger to clear up inconsistencies in its own ufological wisdom. And if a messenger comes along and points it out, that person obviously "does not merit a serious response". Consequently, the real issue brought up in the first place is never mentioned and the thread becomes imbroiled in rhetoric over style of communication and choice of words. How dare someone point out duplicity by ufological luminaries? And to do this in a UFO mailing list? How contentious the sacrilege of disrespect towards a UFO illuminary and question his apparent duplicity? > If not, just what do you consider valuable or important? Not > what or who drives you to despondency, rather what fascinates > you, intrigues you, grabs the depth of your curiosity and wonder? I am not the issue here. Duplicity is the issue. So far all I have seen are lousy attempts at condoning such action by ignoring it. Everytime an ostrich sticks its head in the sand two things happen. The world all of a sudden becomes very dark and the ostrich's butt becomes exposed for all to see. I can't think of a better illustration of the current state of ufological wisdom. > For instance, for me:... [SNIP] What you believe (or anyone else for that matter) is inconsequential, irrelevant, and a total distraction. The topic is duplicity and the current attitudes towards duplicity in the world of ufological wisdom. Is duplicity something to be tolerated or not? > How strange this quote in your signature becomes Ed in light of > the rant it terminates. Have you lost sight of the fact that the > individauls and their actions that you struggle so strongly with > are but a small part and not a whole? Ufology does not have a "whole". It has been kept as but a hole by the people that insist on practicing ufological wisdom in the pursuit of their ufological beliefs. And in the process of ignoring their deficit contributions to any real knowledge about the UFO phenomenon, have found it necessary to invoke dark conspiracies to hide their exposed butts. > In the future, whatever > become the common and broadly accepted answers to the questions > we find so esoteric and unfathomable today will have little in > common with our expectations. If people professing to be interested in this field don't drop their expectations and/or belief systems, there will never be a future for ufological wisdom. If ufologists are so easily disturbed by the identification of duplicity in this field and instead going after the elegance/lack of elegance of the messenger, there is no hope for real answers. > So Ed, what fascinates you? What questions are you endeavoring > to answer? Why is the belief system associated with the ETH so strong, that UFO enthusiats are more than willing to park their integrity, their character, and their discernment outside the temple they are building for themselves and are more than willing to dellude themselves that they are making progress towards truth? I would like to suggest that there is little demand for truth in the context of ufological wisdom if that truth points away from their beliefs and current ufological wisdom. To place that in context I offer you the sage advice of two folks that in all probability did not know anything about ufological wisdom, but appear to me to speak volumes about the present state of ufological wisdom. "As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand." Josh Billings (1818-1885) and "It is unfortunate, considering enthusiasm moves the world, that so few enthusiasts can be trusted to speak the truth." Arthur James Balfour 1848-1930 British Prime Minister Ted, I also suspect that in the final analysis, you will end up finding out more about yourself than about extraterrestrial aliens the longer you indulge yourself in this field. May what you find about yourself measure up to your expectations. Ed Stewart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart egs@netcom.com | So Man, who here seems principal alone, There is Something | Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) | 'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. --------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 27 Re: Back Stabbing From: "rose rotis" <rotis_@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:59:10 PST Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 23:51:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Back Stabbing >From: Ufojoe1 <Ufojoe1@aol.com> [Joe Murgia] >Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:45:14 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Back Stabbing >I joined this list because of all the impressive names that >subscribed to it. I figured I could learn a lot of things with >regards to ufology as well as being able to ask questions of some >of the more knowledgeable people on the list. >Unfortunately, as it turns out, most of the messages on this list >are dedicated to slamming individuals in the field of ufology and >people on this list. It's so disappointing that this is what this >list has turned out to be. <snip> >Joe Murgia >Tampa, Florida Hello Joe, I agree with your post, thoughtful and well-put...it does seem things can get carried away on these forums sometimes! But I wouldn't let that stop me from recieving them, the sighting reports and some of the information given are just too interesting...just do what I do, when I see that a particular thread has become a parade of personalities and motives, hit delete! When they're "on a roll", so to speak, you're not going to miss much if you don't read them first. Seems to me, some people think the one who comes up with the correct answer to the UFO enigma wins the "prize", like it's a contest or something. I guess this is human nature and to be expected, but you are right, how much more productive it would be if everyone cooperated with some sense of unity toward a common goal.... rose
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 27 Alfred's Odd Ode #209 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:30:49 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 23:53:28 -0500 Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #209 Apology to MW #209 (For December 27, 1997) I don't mean to obsess, and won't _call_ it obsession, I have few regrets, and I make no confession, but I'm scared of the man unconstrained and contrary that hides in a blind that defines arbitrary. He's the guy that's a name that you don't often hear. His life is a secret-- he has what's held dear. He has keys to the kingdom, and admissions of guilt; he's the man, understand, and he owns what you've built. He vilifies due process, he has justice on the run, he knows the code's invented as the means to keep his fun. He's a traffic cop for bad guys, tells them when to go/slow up. He has written all the laws that make us wonder why -- give up? He writes the laws to _favor_ any way he makes his call, so we find them written plainly saying nothing much at all. Jurisprudence is illusion for the mass's rank and file -- sends a patronizing message that fair drips with smiling guile. John Ford now sits sedated in a washed out, pink walled room. A victim of indifference, he is tucked into their womb. He's living in a hell on Earth for those that wish him quiet. They say that he's a killer, but you can't believe or buy it! It's true John Ford asks questions. It's true that he can write. It's true that he gets up your nose, and it's true he'll fight the fight. He makes the toughest queries, and he'll check the story close, and facts aren't clear on why the man has got him presupposed. He's incommunicado, if he spoke I hadn't heard; this man is in a silent cage like a hamster or a bird. It's true he may be guilty of this thing they've said he's done, but I'd lay you odds it's bullshit, and go _up_ from ten to one! Lehmberg@snowhill.com Maybe someone in our honorable community can explain why that selfsame community is so ominously quiet on the subject of John Ford. Do you think he's guilty? Really? And the facts of the case do not strike you as mysteriously contrived, and smolderingly convenient? You _don't_ think he got so far up someone's nose that they surgically removed him to a place where they could casually but inevitably, and then thoroughly -- discredit him? You're next, pal, or pal-ette! Start to wonder if I suddenly become quiet. Know this: I love life, I'm having a ball, depression and suicide as reasons for my suicide are _completely_ ludicrous. The same applies if I am accused of putting radium in an enemy's enema bag! If I become quiet begin to wonder, begin to be afraid. But, get mad -- now. Write some letters, make some noise -- stay within the confines of our *laws* and constitution, as useless as that advise appears to be. It didn't seen to provide John Ford any protection. Nothing is safe from the powerful arbitrary when he perceives a need to reach out and crush you like a bit of soiled tissue. Oh -- by the way, I noticed a peculiar light low on the eastern horizon of this predawn morning. It traversed a soundless single line flying due north, jet fast, off the usual airway (I was a military aviator for 23 years). It flashed like a bright white strobe light, but in a random manner, though I saw it flash, _once_, a bright RED strobe, then back to random frequency white. It appeared to jerk back and forth in a thumb thickness as it traversed this single line, _accounting_ for false autokenetic movements. After traversing this single line for about forty-five degrees in my field of view, the light, inexplicably, blinked out. Yeah. On my honor as a deacon in my own church of "It Ain't What You Think=85", the same as any president, trusted friend, honored relative, or holy person -- Yeah! So -- how about those contestants favored in the current Super-Bowl distraction? Free John Ford! -- Explore the Alien View? http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/ "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 27 Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:46:56 PST Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 23:56:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 09:03:38 -0800 > From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > > Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 12:57:12 -0800 > > From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > Ted Viens makes the following point in his defense of duplicity > in ufology by quoting Jerome Clark: > > > > For God's sake, give the guy a break. The letter is pretty > > > > innocuous, and for all practical purposes it amounts to no > > > > more than a meaningless gesture. > > ---Everything else snipped because it is so damned meaningless, > > childish, and irrelevant.--- > Apparently style in communications is more of an important issue > than obvious duplicitous action with the questions such action > brings to an individual's character and integrity in this false > gestalt that has been dubbed as ufology. > So far, both Jerome Clark and now Ted Viens have made it > perfectly clear that their sensibilities have been shaken by the > lack of Ed Stewart's style, and that such lack of style makes the > real issue of duplicity not worthy of a response. The arrogance > of this position speaks volumes of the present status of > ufological wisdom and why there is so much lack of respect for > ufological wisdom in the real world. Dear Mr. Stewart: I can't speak for Ted Viens, whom I don't know, but I doubt that he would disagree when I say that you are as utterly empty of substance here as you are tediously vitriolic of style. If the Brasilia letter is your idea of a major crime in ufology, enough to generate innumerable paragraphs of overheated rhetoric and insulting prose, then perhaps you ought to get a life. Or at least get some sense of proportion, not to mention civility in discourse. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 28 Re: Back Stabbing From: unicat@worldnet.att.net [Dr. Willy Smith] Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:33:51 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:10:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Back Stabbing >From: Ufojoe1 <Ufojoe1@aol.com> [Joe Murgia] >Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:45:14 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Back Stabbing >I joined this list because of all the impressive names that >subscribed to it. I figured I could learn a lot of things with >regards to ufology as well as being able to ask questions of some >of the more knowledgeable people on the list. >Unfortunately, as it turns out, most of the messages on this list >are dedicated to slamming individuals in the field of ufology and >people on this list. It's so disappointing that this is what this >list has turned out to be. [snip] >Joe Murgia >Tampa, Florida I totally agree with your assesment of UFO updates. I have decided not to waste my time any more reading non-significant messages posted by people driven by their ambitions, and who, to top it off, seem to know very little knowledge of the UFO phenomenon. Dr. Willy Smith UNICAT Project Miami, Florida
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 28 Re: UFO Forum chats with Richard Hoagland From: "Yvonne Hedenland" <vonni_h@email.msn.com> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 16:23:55 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:11:24 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Forum chats with Richard Hoagland Former science advisor to CBS News, Richard Hoagland is now purporting that there is life on Mars as well as other planets and sattelites in this solar system. Join UFO Forum on Tuesday, December 30, at 6pm, PT. for a detailed discussion on what information NASA could be hiding from the public and why. This chat is available at http://forums.msn.com/UFO The Briefing Room chat can be accessed by any IRC client. The chat server name is publicchat.msn.com and the room or channel name is #briefing.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 28 FOIA Attorney Peter Gersten chats with Joshua From: "Yvonne Hedenland" <vonni_h@email.msn.com> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:35:11 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:19:11 -0500 Subject: FOIA Attorney Peter Gersten chats with Joshua Monday, December 29th at 6pm, PT, the Timeless Journeys chatroom's guest will be famed Crystal Skull-UFO Explorer, Joshua Shapiro, Author of Journeys of an Aquarian Age Networker, UFOs, Space Brothers and the Aquarian Age and co-author of Mysteries of the Crystal Skulls Revealed. Joshua has dedicated his life to using all forms of media to share with others key information and resources about a Global Transformation he believes will occur to our world by the year 2013. He also has personally seen over ten crystal skulls and was recently guided by spirit to go to the northern part of Peru, in the Huncabama area, to find a blue crystal skull. On August 17th of this year, Joshua formed the Planetary Light Network, a central focus point for people to share their message and visions. This chat is available at http://forums.msn.com/UFO The Briefing Room chat can be accessed by any IRC client. The chat server name is publicchat.msn.com and the room or channel name is #briefing.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 28 Re: Back Stabbing From: John Koopmans <john.koopmans@sympatico.ca> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:50:36 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:26:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Back Stabbing > From: Ufojoe1 <Ufojoe1@aol.com> [Joe Murgia] > Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:45:14 EST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Back Stabbing > I joined this list because of all the impressive names that > subscribed to it. I figured I could learn a lot of things with > regards to ufology as well as being able to ask questions of some > of the more knowledgeable people on the list. <snip> > My main complaint is the amount of time put into the attacks of > each other. I feel like I'm wasting my time even reading these > posts. When I start reading a post, I hope that there wil be good > information in it but usually I'm disappointed to find only > personal attacks and insults instead. > Oh well, enough of my complaining. This will probably be my last > post to this list and I'll probably quit the list and concentrate > on making my time more productive. It's too bad because there are > some really smart people on this list and I was hoping to learn a > lot. I respect all of the opinions on this list, but I just can't > handle all of the bickering anymore. Unless we become united, > nothing will get done. And I do feel like egos, jealousy and envy > has been the main reason for all of the disjointedness that has > been seen among everybody involved in ufology. What a great power > we would be if we would all just concentrate on getting to the > truth and forcing our government to come clean. Maybe that's too > much to ask for. Is it? > Joe Murgia > Tampa, Florida Dear Joe and List: I think that many of us would agree with what you are saying, but I think that you are being a little too harsh in your opinion of this list. I would like to pass along a few of my observations that may help us understand your issue better. If you stay with the list long enough, you will see many worthwhile contributions, and many positive attitudes. No matter what group you belong to, there will always be those who like to impose their egotistical attitudes on others. Because of the negative emotion displayded in these types of postings, they tend to stick out more so that you will remember one negative posting over ten positive postings. If you study TV commercials you will observe this principle in action. Try to concentrate on the posive postings, and you will learn much. Right now, there doesn't seem to be much happening in the UFO field, so the focus is on the more trivial events and rehashings of past events. Be patient and give it more time. When news breaks out, this list really comes alive, and you will see some top-notch discussions! Another observation that I would like to make is that this form of discussion (i.e. e-mail postings) has some way to go yet before it starts to mature. People aren't accustomed to provide opinions or disagreements back and forth in written format without seeing the reactions of those they are communicating with. As such, it is very easy to say the wrong thing without even realizing it. I find that Society in general is becoming more and more sensitive, and it is no longer possible to say things directly. Everything needs to be clothed in so much subtleness that to make a point you often have to say things in the most indirect way. This has the disadvantage of having a high risk of being misinterpreted. So, when you disagree with something that someone says, often the other party misinterprets what you say and takes it as a personal insult. This is when the "back stabbing" starts. Communication and misinterpretation seem to be the biggest problems, in my opinion. This would be greatly reduced in face-to-face discussions where you can see the other person's reactions and be able to gauge whether you may have accidentally used a word, phrase or thought that the other person interprets as being insulting. Then you can quickly correct yourself without losing the focus of your discussion. I think that once we all are able to agree that this occurs, we can move ahead in a positive way and focus on the obvious _intent_ of what the other person is trying to say rather than trying to "trap" him when he accidentally uses the wrong word or example (we have to remember too that often these postings are made in a hurry, sometimes late at night, without the benefit of spell-checkers, etc.). In response to someone's posting, we may want to clarify what we "think" (s)he was trying to say, and use that as a premise to move on to develop the discussion in a positive direction. Don't expect everyone to be "perfect" all the time. Everyone makes mistakes, and their whole life's reputation shouldn't depend on that one mistake. Let's be more forgiving. Also, we should allow someone's views to change over time, and not hold him to past beliefs. How else can one evolve, if views don't change with more experience and understanding. The main difference btween two points of view is with the amount of experience and resultant understanding of the subject matter. Discussions should focus on bringing more understanding to the subject. We also have to realize that in the UFO field, no one is "right" when it comes to different theories or hypotheses. You can argue in favour of a position, but it is still only your opinion based on whatever supporting "facts" that you may have been able to find. When someone starts to state an opinion as though it was a proven fact, that is when people's backs start to rise. I think that these communication problems will resolve themselves as we become more accustomed to this type of communication. This will also require us to drop our egotism and come to a common level, with more compassion and understanding for each othr as we all try to move to the common objective of understanding what this pheenomenon is all about. Joe, I hope you will stay with this list, and you will soon see that is still one of the best UFO lists around! (Keep it up, Errol). Best regards... John Koopmans
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 28 Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] From: Peregrine Mendoza <101653.2205@compuserve.com> [Peter Brookesmith] Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 21:26:24 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:30:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] With the compliments & best wishes for 1998 of the Duke of Mendoza. >Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 09:03:38 -0800 >From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] [polla snipperata] >There are no standards of evidence and no >standards of conduct in this arena. That has to change. The >present practice of ufological wisdom is to simply ignore the >improprieties when they occur in the hope that they go away >unoticed and be forgotten and not to ask for clarification. Sock it to 'em, Ed. It is my observation that to qualify (the test, score and parchment are all, of course, self-administered) as either an "agnostic" or an "expert" in this non-field it is necessary to exclude from one's view many uncomfortable things, but an absolute exclusion zone surrounds moral issues. [Mikro snippera] >Ufology refuses to clean itself >up and tries to cover its own undisclipline by involking dark >conspiracies keeping the "truth" away. Yet, it won't lift a >finger to clear up inconsistencies in its own ufological wisdom. >And if a messenger comes along and points it out, that person >obviously "does not merit a serious response". Consequently, >the real issue brought up in the first place is never mentioned >and the thread becomes imbroiled in rhetoric over style of >communication and choice of words. How dare someone point out >duplicity by ufological luminaries? And to do this in a UFO >mailing list? How contentious the sacrilege of disrespect >towards a UFO illuminary and question his apparent duplicity? [kai polla snipperata akoma] I hope I am not the only one hereabouts to say, and not merely think, that all you (Ed) did was: articulate the obvious and enquire what Budd Hopkins proposed to do about it. I hope I am not the only one to say and not merely think that the season of goodwill has nothing to do with whether this should be pointed out, or whether the "guy" should be given "a break" that, at an time of year, he does not merit. Bumbling is bumbling and bullshit is bullshit. You don't have to be a Budd-basher to observe, or to say, that. I am reminded of Bruce Maccabee pleading with Bill Spaulding not to release his finding that the Heflin pix were hokum, because the skeptics might make much of it. The insecurity may or may not be pathological, but it is of a piece. And it floats. (And wherever Ufojoe Murgia goes in ufology he will find it is the same. Sorry, Joe.) best wishes Poultice D. Mentholation Soothing Balm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 28 Re: Back Stabbing From: natural.state@erols.com [Melanie Mecca] Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 22:29:16 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:45:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Back Stabbing > From: Ufojoe1 <Ufojoe1@aol.com> [Joe Murgia] > Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:45:14 EST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Back Stabbing > Unfortunately, as it turns out, most of the messages on this list > are dedicated to slamming individuals in the field of ufology and > people on this list. It's so disappointing that this is what this > list has turned out to be. Well, you're right about that - it's a researcher/investigator/author's list for the most part, and they all like to debate - since there's no referee, pot shots tend to predominate. > When I talked to a new friend of mine recently (This guy has > helped the CSETI group with some of their work), he and I agreed > that the biggest problem besides all of the government secrecy is > the ufology groups themselves. If and when the Really Big Event comes, probably will not be witnessed by the dues-paying ufologists, or those fascinated with the subject and eager for sightings (I place myself in this category) but by Sancho, Sevilla, Muhammad, Yoshiko, Jethro, and everyone else who never gave a damn. Murphy's Law, n'est-ce pas? > This fellow and I didn't discuss how CSETI was the best group out > there. We discussed all of the theories and diffeerent cases that > are being talked about right now and we both shared our open > views on the possibilities of each story being true or untrue. What I always wish those on this list would do. For example, a moderated discussion now and then, based on one or more assumptions. > The thing is, we didn't spend our time attacking anybody. We both > agreed that cases like Corso and Shulman sound interesting but > only time will tell if either one is totaly truthful or they're > both full of you know what. He knows that Corso's facts don't all > check but we need to wait and investigate more before we label > his story (and Birnes') a fabrication. That's where I sit too - open-minded on both sides of the veracity question, but would like Shulman's tale to be true, especially since as a participant in the computer field it would be nice for "one of ours" to scoop the pros - ;) > My main complaint is the amount of time put into the attacks of > each other. I feel like I'm wasting my time even reading these > posts. Me too, and many others on the list also. Whenever I've complained about it, nobody that I am, one or more regulars have written me privately and agreed. > Oh well, enough of my complaining. This will probably be my last > post to this list and I'll probably quit the list and concentrate > on making my time more productive. It's too bad because there are > some really smart people on this list and I was hoping to learn a > lot. But then the ratio of killer debaters and just plain interested individuals, pro or amateur, will be skewed further. >And I do feel like egos, jealousy and envy > has been the main reason for all of the disjointedness that has > been seen among everybody involved in ufology. A good psychologist would probably have quite a bit to observe about that - same principle, most likely, as the rabid sceptic who cannot admit the possibility of the visitors because of reality-shattering avoidance behavior. A subconscious theme??? - If one "owns" the visitors by locking up the "only possible" perspective about them, one can tell oneself "I am in control." > What a great power > we would be if we would all just concentrate on getting to the > truth and forcing our government to come clean. Maybe that's too > much to ask for. I keep hoping to find an effective grassroots groundswell effort so that I can put my shoulder to that wheel, but nothing has turned up yet. The conditioning, zeitgeist, or, if you favor conspiracies, mind control aspects of our current political climate has made individuals doubt their own common sense and fostered fear of ridicule. I keep thinking that if a rugged pioneer man or woman were to have these experiences, they would just call a spade a spade, but no, we have to get into "psychological constructs," "delusions," and everything to avoid stating what is actualy happening. Keep the faith, GI Joe, there are other humans out here in a similar frame of mind. You Are Not Alone. Melanie Mecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 28 Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 22:04:46 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:42:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net > Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:46:56 PST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > I can't speak for Ted Viens, whom I don't know, but I doubt that > he would disagree when I say that you are as utterly empty of > substance here as you are tediously vitriolic of style. If the > Brasilia letter is your idea of a major crime in ufology, enough > to generate innumerable paragraphs of overheated rhetoric and > insulting prose, then perhaps you ought to get a life. Is your denial about the subject of this thread so encompassing that you are unable to discern the subject matter and address it properly? Nowhere in this thread have I addressed whether the Brasilia letter was a worthy document, or not, of signature. Nowhere in this thread have I implied that the Brasilia letter was the topic at issue. Can you spell DUPLICITY? What part of DUPLICITY don't you understand? Can you spell 'Budd Hopkins'? What part of 'Budd Hopkins' don't you understand? Is your denial so great that you can't even address the topic at hand? If not, what are you doing here in the first place? I have raised questions of duplicity that can be cleared up by Budd Hopkins himself by either confirming that after he read the Brasilia letter he is in total support of it, or by rescinding his signature if he is not. I could care less which way Budd Hopkins decides to side with. But in the present, based on what was posted here by John Velez, Budd Hopkins is being duplicitous by signing the letter and then devaluing his action by saying he didn't bother to read it and didn't consider it that important. That is duplicitous. That doesn't serve his hosts and sponsors in Brazil any more than opponents to the letter. That is what this thread is about. I'll repeat myself. It is about duplicity in ufology and it is about accountability in ufology. Are we willing to condone duplicity and turn our backs, or are we willing to stand up for accountability and demand that ufologists be accountable for their positions, claims, and endorsements? My God! Such a radical concept! Do you get it now? Do you understand? Would you like for me to make it clearer for you? I can, but it may be best if I give you the opportunity to shake yourself away from your denial of what this topic is about. Maybe accountability is a tedious subject for you, and maybe accountability is devoid of substance and not worthy of address in ufology. I think different. It is long overdue. You want to turn your back on it? Go right ahead, but you will live with it. Ed Stewart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart egs@netcom.com | So Man, who here seems principal alone, There is Something | Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) | 'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. --------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 28 Re: Hindu Mythology & ETH, Sun-discs, etc. From: "Tom Burnett" <burnettc@gte.net> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:18:44 -1000 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:47:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Hindu Mythology & ETH, Sun-discs, etc. > From: wlmss@pegasus.com.au [Lawrie Williams] > Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 21:23:30 +1000 (GMT+1000) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Hindu Mythology & Ramblings. > The world was remade c. 4000 bc by a close encounter with a mass > of cometary debris that gassed the world with CO and generated > such massive oceanic tidal surges that essentially civilization > was sent back to scratch. Small pockets of human survivors then > emerged to re-populate the world. > The world was remade c. 4000 bc by a close encounter with a mass > of cometary debris that gassed the world with CO and generated > such massive oceanic tidal surges that essentially civilization > was sent back to scratch. Small pockets of human survivors then > emerged to re-populate the world. No, It wasn't. If we use no other records but the written records, Sumerian life was well established in large cities (Eridu, Ur, Uruk, Nippur, Kish and Lagash) by 4,000BC. Sailboats, wheeled vehicles, potter's wheels and kilns were in general use. Copper was smelted and tempered from c 4,000BC. Other contemporaneous evidence shows Neolithic traits and population centers developing without interruption in North, Central and South America, SE Europe and the middle east from c 10,000BC and for South and East Asia, Western Europe and sub-Saharan Africa from c 6,000BC. Oh...Cometary debris gassed the world with carbon monoxide? carbon monoxide is a byproduct of rapid oxidation (combustion). One of the requirements is a combustible material (fuel). Another is oxygen. The CO is generated as the burning material is incompletely consumed in an oxygen environment. I am not saying that CO molecules cannot be detected in the tails of comets. I am saying that comets are not balls of frozen carbon monoxide that periodically gas the earth. If a comet of sufficient size were to strike earth it could do some damage, but passing through a cloud of cometary flotsam, including millions of tons of imaginary carbon monoxide, is not a threat. > I see that mainstream science has just started to recognize this > seriously. I wrote about a big dark comet apparently coming in > 1994, before HB was reported. If anything, some forms of UFO's > at least are very likely to be related to ancient high tech > civilizations. Anyway, for the massive destruction of Bronze > Age Civilizations (perhaps by the debris in the wake of HB) see: > http://ccf.arc.nasa.gov/sst/icons/ > from the Asteroid and Comet Impact Hazard Page, It doesn't say anything like that. Read the page. Then follow the nasa.gov page to the part about comets: http://bang.lanl.gov/solarsys/comet.htm Please take the time to read it this time. Look closely for any references to Carbon Monoxide. >From http://bang.lanl.gov.solarsys.comet.htm: >Comets are small, fragile, irregularly shaped bodies composed of a mixture >of non-volatile grains and frozen gases. They have highly elliptical >orbits that bring them very close to the Sun and swing them >deeply into >space, often beyond the orbit of Pluto. >Comet structures are diverse and very dynamic, but they all develop a >surrounding cloud of diffuse material, called a coma, that usually grows >in size and brightness as the comet approaches the Sun. Usually a small, >bright nucleus (less than 10 km in diameter) is visible in the middle of >the coma. The coma and the nucleus together constitute the head of the >comet. >As comets approach the Sun they develop enormous tails of luminous >material that extend for millions of kilometers from the head, away from >the Sun. When far from the Sun, the nucleus is very cold and its material >is frozen solid within the nucleus. In this state comets are sometimes >referred to as a "dirty iceberg" or "dirty snowball," since over half of >their material is ice. When a comet approaches within a few AU of the Sun, >the surface of the nucleus begins to warm, and volatiles evaporate. The >evaporated molecules boil off and carry small solid particles with them, >forming the comet's coma of gas and dust. >When the nucleus is frozen, it can be seen only by reflected sunlight. >However, when a coma develops, dust reflects still more sunlight, and gas >in the coma absorbs ultraviolet radiation and begins to fluoresce. At >about 5 AU from the Sun, fluorescence usually becomes more intense than >reflected light. >As the comet absorbs ultraviolet light, chemical processes release >hydrogen, which escapes the comet's gravity, and forms a hydrogen >envelope. This envelope cannot be seen from Earth because its light is >absorbed by our atmosphere, but it has been detected by spacecraft. >The Sun's radiation pressure and solar wind accelerate materials away from >the comet's head at differing velocities according to the size and mass of >the materials. Thus, relatively massive dust tails are accelerated slowly >and tend to be curved. The ion tail is much less massive, and is >accelerated so greatly that it appears as a nearly straight line extending >away from the comet opposite the Sun. The following view of Comet West >shows two distinct tails. The thin blue plasma tail is made up of gases >and the broad white tail is made up of microscopic dust particles. >Each time a comet visits the Sun, it loses some of its volatiles. >Eventually, it becomes just another rocky mass in the solar system. For >this reason, comets are said to be short-lived, on a cosmological time >scale. Many scientists believe that some asteroids are extinct comet >nuclei, comets that have lost all of their volatiles. >Comet Hale-Bopp (GIF, 89K; caption) >These NASA Hubble Space Telescope pictures of comet Hale-Bopp show a >remarkable "pinwheel" pattern and a blob of free-flying debris near the >nucleus. The bright clump of light along the spiral (above the nucleus, >which is near the center of the frame) may be a piece of the comet's icy >crust that was ejected into space by a combination of ice evaporation and >the comet's rotation, and which then disintegrated into a bright cloud of >particles. >Although the "blob" is about 3.5 times fainter than the brightest portion >at the nucleus, the lump appears brighter because it covers a larger area. >The debris follows a spiral pattern outward because the solid nucleus is >rotating like a lawn sprinkler, completing a single rotation about once >per week. End of NASA article. <snip> > As you may all know, we are now passing into the zone of danger > since we are less than 0.1 AU (at 9 million miles) from the > path recently taken by HB. It was giving off a million tons > of CO a day not long ago and probably has been doing so for > thousands of years, not to mention the CO2, H20 HCN and graphite. > Anyway, by Jan 4 every year from now on we might have the > inception of a new "twelve days of Xmas" when to put a charm > on the crossing they hung up gold and silver ornaments for > protection. <snip> >So no need for gloom, the arc has been sent as a sign that we >will be saved from the rapture (euphoria of CO poisoning) and >the babel effect (speech centre damage from CO). Dear friends, >please note that the real crackpots out there say the same things, >but they never seem to get the probable dates right. : ) I do >urge one and all to keep your houses as airtight as possible >for the next month. Just to be sure. HB was NEVER giving off a million tons of CO every day. The fact is that anyone who keeps their house airtight for a month during the winter may well get carbon monoxide poisoning. But it will probably be from your advice to do so, not from any comet! I recommend that everyone keep their homes as well ventilated as possible at all times, especially in the winter when heating devices are in use to avoid the possibility of carbon monoxide poisoning and not to listen to potentially dangerous advice. Aloha Tom Burnett
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 28 Re: Sect Awaits 'His' Arrival In Dallas From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates] Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 02:04:47 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:18:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Sect Awaits 'His' Arrival In Dallas > Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 08:52:48 -0600 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sect Awaits 'His' Arrival In Dallas > >From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates] > >Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 19:10:55 EST > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sect Awaits 'His' Arrival In Dallas > >> From: RSchatte <RSchatte@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] > >> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 08:44:10 EST > >> To: CNINews1@aol.com, updates@globalserve.net > >> Subject: Fwd: UFO Cult Denies Suicidal Tendencies > >> From: AOL News <AOLNews@aol.com> > >> Subject: UFO Cult Denies Suicidal Tendencies > >> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 06:36:17 EST > >> UFO Cult Denies Suicidal Tendencies <brevity snip> > Robert, > While I tend to agree with you about the "millinium paranoia," > I don't include Edgar Cayce in those whom I label as cultists. > I realize many do label the Cayce group as a cult, and by the > same standards that you could call "religion" cultish, yes I > guess it does fit, but based on the historical background of > Edgar Cayce and the "work" he did with the sick and troubled, > I personally think his name should be protected from this > cult paranoia. <snip> > try them, before they label these treatments "cultish nonsense!" > Yes, Cayce has missed many of his prophecies. Yet, he has been > extremely accurate also. > The man made many of his predictions in the early twenty's and > thirties. Now, in the 90's we want to 'accuse' him of being > a charalatan. > Do as you please, but, I for one will give Edgar Cayce and his > written history, the benefit of the doubt. > What Edgar Cayce gave to humanity, was selfless, not selfish. > He asked nothing in return. In fact, he did not want the > gift he was given. Yet, he was the vehicle through which it > expressed. <snip> > REgards, Mike Cayce himself may have been the nicest guy that ever lived, although as you admit, he was only partially right. The same is true of Gorden Michael Scallion and his earth changes claims/theories. About half or more of the time he is wrong and has admitted it. What I simply point out is in the early 70s, everybody was claiming that Cayce/Nostrodamus was saying the end of the world, armeggeddon was going to happen in 1975. Then it was 79, then 85 then.... In economics remember the book Bankruptcy 1995 by figgy and some other guy who claimed in the early 90s that the US would be bankrupt, could go no deeper in debt then 5 trillion or all this doom and gloom would happen. Well 1995 came and went, the US is already passed 5 trillion in debt and the end of the world still hasn't happened. Bottom line is don't quit your day job based upon the alleged end of the world/Armeggeddon pronouncements of Cayce, Scallion or anybody else. Cheers, Robert Search for other documents from or mentioning: rgates8254 | mchristo |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 28 Re: Back Stabbing From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 08:30:52 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:35:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Back Stabbing >From: unicat@worldnet.att.net [Dr. Willy Smith] >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Back Stabbing >Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:33:51 +0000 >>From: Ufojoe1 <Ufojoe1@aol.com> [Joe Murgia] >>Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:45:14 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Back Stabbing >>I joined this list because of all the impressive names that >>subscribed to it. I figured I could learn a lot of things with >>regards to ufology as well as being able to ask questions of some >>of the more knowledgeable people on the list. >>Unfortunately, as it turns out, most of the messages on this list >>are dedicated to slamming individuals in the field of ufology and >>people on this list. It's so disappointing that this is what this >>list has turned out to be. >[snip] >>Joe Murgia >>Tampa, Florida >I totally agree with your assesment of UFO updates. I have >decided not to waste my time any more reading non-significant >messages posted by people driven by their ambitions, and who, to >top it off, seem to know very little knowledge of the UFO >phenomenon. >Dr. Willy Smith >UNICAT Project >Miami, Florida May I in the spirit of Brotherhood, suggest to both of you, that your reason for joining this list were wrong from the start. You were taken in by the idea of communicating with 'Personalities'. As with the Biblical injunction: "God is not a respector of Persons", so we should deal with _all_ humanity on an even footing, regardless of their educational or social background. When we can do that, then we will not be disappointed, when those whom we hold in high regard 'disappoint' us. Unfortunately, Humanity, for the most part is very childish. They are still using pacifiers for security. Be these 'reputations', 'money' or 'skills' they are still pacifiers. Now, if you will just come to this List for the purpose of exchanging information, you will not be so disappointed. While in principal, I agree with your assessment, I learned long ago, that the ego of humanity will ultimately be both his downfall and salvation at the same time. Please stay and help raise the tolerance level here. We need it. Happy New Year... REgards, Mike Search for other documents from or mentioning: mchristo | unicat |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 28 Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkin's POV] From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:18:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:54:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkin's POV] >Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:57:42 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Brasilia's Letter >Everyone who knows Budd personally knows what a sweet and >generous guy he is and I'm not surprised to hear him say that >he was only trying to be supportive of something his hosts >considered important. Typical Budd. John, I thought this might be the case. I wonder how many others did not read it????? As I see it, no harm done. The Brazilian government is not known for responding to its citizens, so why should it pay any attention to a bunch of foreigners? Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 28 Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:35:28 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:00:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] >Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 09:03:38 -0800 >From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] Ed, Why waste all this time and disk space on something so genuinely trivial? If you want to come down on someone for compromising ufology, why not devote your time to Kent Jeffrey, whose actions caused real harm? Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 28 Revamped Crop Circle Connector Mailing List From: Mark Fussell <mjfussell@marque.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 16:04:04 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:02:57 -0500 Subject: Revamped Crop Circle Connector Mailing List Hi The Crop Circle Connector as many of you know has been established since June 1995. We have come along way since then, and are very grateful for the support we have received in that time. In January 1998 we are asking all of our Mailing List members to resubscribe again, under the conditions stated on the web page below http://www.marque.demon.co.uk/connector/ml.html We will continue to send this message to each member until we received a message from you to resubscrible or Unsubscribe from the Crop Circle Connector. When you resubscrible by sending us an email we will reply with our contact address for you to send the annual subscription. The reasons being, that we hope to open a mirror site in America, to make it easier for our American readers. Also we will be designing some new features on the CCC to make it easier to find information. We will be arranging a monthly competition which will ONLY be open to 1998 Members. We will be providing monthly prizes, such as Crop Circle books, Videos, Photographs, etc etc. We would like to take this oppportunity in wishing all of our members a Merry Christmas, and successful new year. All the best Stuart & Mark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 28 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 50 From: Masinaigan <Masinaigan@aol.com> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:37:44 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:05:48 -0500 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 50 UFO ROUNDUP Volume 2, Number 50 December 28, 1997 Editor: Joseph Trainor BRITISH JETLINER SIGHTS GIANT UFO OVER YORKSHIRE On Monday, December 8, 1997, a Boeing 737, owned by British Midland Airways, took off from London's Heathrow Airport for a flight to Belfast, Northern Ireland. At 2:15 p.m., the jetliner was flying over Liverpool on a northwesterly heading. Then one of the passengers spotted a very large UFO off the right wingtip at an estimated distance of 150 miles (240 kilometers). According to Miles Johnston of the British UFO Research Association (BUFORA), "It was a very big, black, thin vehicle, with a very bright white tip. It moved at all times very slowly but was of considerable size. Relative width-to-length ratio of 20:1." The UFO was described as "a cigar-shaped object" 2,000 feet (667 meters) long. The UFO "was seen almost on the horizon (at) approximately the same height as the Boeing 737, 33,000 feet...This would position the UFO approximately over Yorkshire," Johnston reported, "The UFO was observed by a passenger on the plane for 15 minutes." Below the UFO was "heavy thick cloud" cover that made it impossible for the object to be seen from the ground. "After 15 minutes, the object flew slowly flew into very high clouds over the region." Prior to that, "the object was visible at all times in bright, clear sunlight." (See Filer's Files #51 for December 24, 1997. Many thanks to George A. Filer of MUFON for this report.) (Editor's Note: A UFO was seen over Rotherham, S. Yorks three weeks ago.) UFO HOVERS OVER FRENCH NUCLEAR WASTE FACILITY On Tuesday, December 9, 1997, security guard Michel Collot d'Ouvrard was making his rounds at the CARB nuclear waste storage facility in Penthe- les-Brienne, with his K-9 guard dog on a leash. The plant is located near Brienne-le-Chateau, L'Aube department, in eastern France, about 180 kilometers (108 miles) east of Paris. At 4:15 p.m., Michel reported, "My dog and I were at the center of the perimeter, when he suddenly began barking at an unusual presence some distance in front of us. I had difficulty seeing it because of the powerful searchlights on the nearby pylons. Then I noticed a yellow light apparently moving toward our position. It came from the southwest, from the general direction of the Foret d'Orient, between Piney and Vandeuvre. It had the appearance of a car's headlight beacon at a distance of 1.5 to 2 kilometers. But in reality it was much closer to us, perhaps at a distance of 300 to 400 meters (990 to 1,320 feet)." "The luminous object seemed to halt for a fraction of a second, shot out a series of light beams, and then it followed the same flight path back to the southwest," he added. "Up in the sky, the luminous object was not moving but seemed to be larger. I had it in view for about 20 seconds." On Saturday, December 13, 1997, at 6:30 p.m., two women working at the CARB plant "discovered in the sky the presence of two luminous objects at great height (a high altitude--J.T.)." They estimated the size of the UFOs as "four centimeters if at arm's length." The women said the UFOs "had a dome on the top and four lights on the underside. The two objects left behind a luminous rectilinear trail, cut short, that looked like a giant neon tube." "The first object suddenly departed to the southeast, towards 'La CARB,' while the other object remained in the area, flying around at heights varying from 30 meters to 300 meters." Both sightings are being investigated by French ufologist Picot Sylvain. (Merci beaucoup aux Franck Marie et Banque OVNI pour ces nouvelles.) UFO FLIES OVER A DAM IN CENTRAL WALES On Friday, December 19, 1997, at 6:30 a.m., a UFO was seen flying over the hydroelectric dam in the Black Mountains by two rangers of the Welsh Forestry Commission. The men were five miles apart at the time, but were in radio contact with each other. The incident took place in the mountains overlooking Llandoverry, approximately 66 miles (106 kilometers) northwest of Cardiff. "The UFO was going in a north-northeasterly direction," one ranger reported. "It was a very bright ball of light with four sparkly tails and about two miles or so high, about three times the size of a large star. It was over the dam for about 35 seconds, climbing in an upward direction." The sightings reports were received by the Welsh Forestry Commission office at Tirabads. (Many thanks to Todd Andrews and the Riskers for this report.) (Editor's Note: Earlier this year, a large dark triangular UFO was sighted above Highway A40 near Trecastle.) FRANCE REPORTS TWO MORE UFO INCIDENTS On Wednesday, December 3, 1997, at 9 p.m., Philippe Dancoisne was in downtown Rennes when he "noticed the presence of two shining 'stars' at 40 degrees above the western horizon. The two stars 'gleamed' with red and green firebursts, as if they were two luminous objects some distance from each other--one red, the other green." "The objects remained stationary," he added, "with the same relative space between them. I watched until 9:45 p.m." when the lights vanished. "In the days following, the same phenomenon appeared again, at the very same time" and the UFOs behaved "in an identical manner, which really astonished me, for I had never observed stars (acting) in this fashion." Rennes is a city in the department Ile-et-Vilaine, about 280 kilometers (175 miles) west of Paris. On Sunday, December 7, 1997, at 11:10 a.m., two hospital workers were driving on the highway between Troyes and Lusigny near the village of Montreuil-sur-Barce. Suddenly, "their attention was caught by a very bright white flash of light, what seemed to be a reflection of the sun. They took note of this development in the sky, believing at first that it was an aircraft in difficulty." The men observed the mysterious light moving around inside the overcast cloud cover. "It duplicated its own motions, moving in a curved flight in an east- west trajectory but drifting towards the southeast. Its altitude was less than 1,000 meters (3,300 feet). It seemed to be engaging in 'low-level flying.'" They estimated the UFO "to be 10 to 15 kilometers (6 to 9 miles) away, towards the Foret d'Orient. The (UFO's) appearance was circular, elliptical and presented itself in profile." (See the French newspaper L'Est Republicain for December 8, 1997. Merci aux Franck Marie et Picot Sylvain pour ces nouvelles.) UFO, MYSTERY HELICOPTERS SPOTTED IN PORTUGAL On Saturday, December 20, 1997, at 2 a.m., Roberto Cardoso "was driving home with a friend" about 10 kilometers (6 miles) west of Leiria, Portugal when his companion spotted something very strange in the sky. On "a straight and downhill section of the road, where we could perfectly see the sky in front of us... Suddenly, a white-blue round object appeared from behind a cloud and made a perfect vertical descent" of 500 meters from the rainy overcast sky. "The light made the descent in no more than a second," Roberto reported, adding that it touched down about 10 kilometers (6 miles) east of the Atlantic Ocean shoreline. "The object itself could have had a diameter between one and five meters. The light was strong and it brightly illuminated the clouds around it as soon as it became visible. The light appeared at (the) 11 o'clock (position) just about in front of us. We were heading west towards the Portuguese coast." "'Hey! Did you see that?' my friend said." "'Yes. But it's too far away for us to find it, damn!'" Roberto told his other friends about the sighting. A few days later, one of them, Manuel Oliveira, reported an equally strange incident near Martinha Grande, southwest of Leiria. Oliveira "told of seeing some strange helicopters of a type he had never seen before. He told me that they were NOT black and had some nation's insignia on them. He only knows the Portuguese and USA insignias and it was not one of theirs," Roberto wrote, adding that they might be "of the Westland type." Both encounters, he added, took place about 15 kilometers from the Fuerza Aerea Portuguesa (FAP) air base at Monte Real. (Email Interview) Leiria is 184 kilometers (115 miles) north of Lisboa (Lisbon), the nation's capital. (Editor's Note: The Westland Lynx Mk3 and Mk4 are used by both the UK and France. For more black helicopter news, see the Pennsylvania story in this issue.) LUMINOUS UFO FLIES OVER A CITY IN CENTRAL ITALY On Sunday, December 14, 1997, at 6:15 p.m., pedestrians in Terni, a city in the Monti Sabini mountain range approximately 100 kilometers north of Rome, spotted a strange luminous object flying across the evening sky. The UFO was described as "a luminous white object in the form of a pointed arch." Witnesses said the UFO "made a swift passage" through the sky over Terni "along a horizontal trajectory." The case is being investigated by ufologist Massimo Valloscuro of the Centro Italiano di Studi Ufologici (CISU). (Grazie a Edoardo Russo di CISU per questo rapporto.) MAN AND SON SPOT UFO OVER NORTH CAROLINA On Saturday, December 20, 1997, at 5:40 p.m., Chuck Olmstead and his son "were in the front yard of our home in Greenville, North Carolina (N.C.) (population 44,972), looking into the sky. We had just launched a helium balloon with a return tag as an experiment and were watching it travel to the north." "The sky was dark blue, a few of the early evening stars were visible" and they also saw two aircraft, one at 45 degrees or so from the horizon with red and white lights visible and one in the northeast, also at 45 degrees from the horizon." "Looking up at zenith, I watched a group of about 6 or 7 stars of varying intensity suddenly line up in a straight line," Olmstead reported. "My son saw it also and yelled out, 'Daddy!'" "I told him, 'Run inside and get your mommy.'" He estimated the formation's size as "the height of my index finger (held) at arm's length. Some of the stars were large and bright--larger than Venus--and others were dim. I then noticed that the entire line was moving slowly to the west in sync." "At the same time, I then noticed another star to the west that seemed to be the 'leading' star, also moving in sync with the rest of the stars. What I visualized was an equilateral triangle with only one leg of the three visible... Suddenly, all of the stars seemed to converge at the center of the triangle, and all faded out just prior to meeting in the center. The entire event was probably only eight to ten seconds long. This is the strangest thing I have ever seen in the sky..." (Email Interview) UFOs SEEN RECENTLY OVER WAYNESBORO, VIRGINIA On Sunday, December 21, 1997, at 5:15 a.m., Ellen Mycroft spied a UFO from her home in Harrisonburg, in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley. "I saw what appeared to be 3 to 5 bright lights in a row in the eastern sky. After a while, they just gradually faded away," Ms. Mycroft reported, adding that she had them in view for "a period of five to twenty seconds. I don't know how long they had been up there before that, but I watched for a while, maybe 30 seconds to a minute." She estimated that the UFO was flying over nearby Waynesboro, Va. (population 18,549), on Highway 340 approximately 96 miles (154 kilometers) northwest of Richmond. She also contacted another eyewitness in Crimora, Va., 25 miles from Harrisonburg. "We both thought we saw a series of five lights nearly as bright as Venus around 5:15 or 5:20 p.m. on Sunday, December 21. He thought the lights were 20 to 25 degrees above the horizon, and the lights appeared to be over the Waynesboro/ Fishersville area which is consistent with my observation." She added that Waynesboro was the site of the 1964 UFO encounter reported by Horace Burns. (Email Interview) COUPLE SEES A UFO OVER HOOKSETT, NEW HAMPSHIRE On December 3, 1997, a couple spotted a "very bright light" in the evening sky south of Hooksett, New Hampshire (population 2,573). One of the witnesses said, "You could bundle five airplanes together and it wouldn't even come close to this much light." The UFO approached from the south. When one witness called attention to it, "the light halted and suddenly took off." Mysterious bright lights along Route 3 south of Hooksett were also reported by two other witnesses. Hooksett is 10 miles (16 kilometers) south of Concord, the state capital. (See the Manchester, N.H. Union-Leader for December 5, 1997. Many thanks to George A. Filer of MUFON for this report.) BLACK HELICOPTERS ACTIVE IN PENNSYLVANIA AND NORTHERN FLORIDA The night of December 16, 1997, Brett B. was at his family's home on Hawk Mountain near Tamaqua, Pennsylvania (population 7,843), a small city at the intersection of Highways 209 and 309, approximately 98 miles (158 kilometers) northwest of Philadelphia. All at once, Brett heard the sound of a helicopter. "It sounded as if it was really close," he reported. "I'm guessing that it was at about mountain level. It sounded as if it was right outside the house. When I went outside, I didn't see anything" because of the low overcast. "I went back in the house because I didn't have my shoes on or a coat, and it was getting cold." Listening to the helicopter noise, Brett wondered if there might have been a breakout at a state prison nearby. But, he added, "my aunt works at the prison, and she usually calls us" if a breakout occurs. After a while, the mysterious helicopter flew away. (Email Interview) On Saturday, December 20, 1997, Corey S. saw two black UH-1D helicopters fly over his farm near Jasper, Florida (population 2,099). The choppers were "flying close to the ground, heading east." According to Corey, some neighbors called a local radio talk show and reported seeing "six to eight black helicopters, most of them Hueys (UH-1D) but one was a Hughes 500 with airborne radar" on the ground at a nearby rural airstrip." Jasper is on Florida Highway 41, approximately 85 miles (136 kilometers) east of Tallahassee, the state capital. from the UFO Files... 1909: AIRSHIP HOVERS OVER WILLIMANTIC In addition to Massachusetts and Rhode Island, UFOs were seen over Connecticut during the "airship flap" of December 1909. Here's the actual newspaper account of the most famous Connecticut sighting of the period. "There was a bright light in the east last night and the wise ones sized it up for Tillinghast's mysterious airship. It was about 7:30 o'clock that the light was first noticed and it was then in the southeast, appearing to be above the thread plant as viewed from the foot of Railroad street but a long ways off--from twenty to thirty miles in the opinion of some of the people who saw it." "Policemen and other matter-of-fact persons winked the other eye when the airship was mentioned but there were plenty of people who were quite willing to declare, and did so declare, that what they had seen in the eastern sky answered in all particulars the descriptions sent out of the mysterious aerial craft that has been creating such a sensation in Worcester and other Massachusetts cities and villages." "There were several hundred in Willimantic who saw what they believed to have been an airship, and others said it was Hailey's (sic) comet. Whatever it was, it caused considerable excitement for a while and the curious ones spent several hours with their eyes riveted on the heavens." "The light in the southeast looked like a powerful searchlight. Because of its size and the aura it threw, it attracted wide attention. It remained stationary for a few minutes, and then it seemed to shoot upwards, and then ambled around as if the person manipulating it was trying to get his bearings." "As usual, Mayor (John F.) Dunn's store was crowded about that time, and Benjamin Murphy, timekeeper on the New Haven (rail)road, was...calling the men out to see the airship. Mayor Dunn was among them, and he stated last night (i.e. on December 23, 1909--J.T.) when seen by a Chronicle reporter that he would not swear it was an airship but it certainly did look like one. Others who saw it were of the same opinion." "The light was miles away apparently and quite high in the air. It played in the east for about fifteen minutes and then vanished. Later there appeared a brilliant star in the firmament and those who had not seen the first light and saw this star were of the opinion that both lights were one and the same, but those who saw the first light said it was no star." "People who had come down street to do their Christmas shopping forgot what they had come for and stood on the sidewalk and even in the middle of the street, looking in the east, hoping to see the return of the airship. Some of the skeptics who, just because they did not hear the hissing of the engine or got an introduction to the man running the ship, laughed at those who claimed it was an airship they saw. The skeptics could not account, though, for the strange light and its peculiar actions." "It was too bad that the airship, if it was one, did not come nearer the city so that the people could inspect the machine. The scoffers would have then had no grounds for scoffing." (See the Willimantic, Conn. Daily Chronicle for December 24, 1909, "'Come, Ride In My Airship' Invitation Awaited by Many!" page 1.) LAST REFLECTIONS ON THE YEAR: This wraps up Volume 2 of UFO ROUNDUP. Your editor would like to extend his heartfelt thanks to all who submitted UFO news during 1997. Your contributed items are what makes it all possible. To our new readers in Bermuda, Japan, Norway, Colombia and the Netherlands, thanks for being with us. We're repeating last year's ROUNDUP Pledge--to bring full coverage of the global UFO situation to readers everywhere via the Internet. UFO ROUNDUP will continue to publish attribution wherever possible for every item that appears in the newsletter. At the same time, UFO ROUNDUP will diligently protect the confidentiality of eyewitnesses. Hopefully, the day is coming when UFO witnesses can talk about their sightings and encounters without being harassed by government agents. To those who criticize the stories published in this newsletter...tell me, friends, when was the last time you saw attribution footnotes in the New York Times and the Washington Post? If 1997--with Heavens Gate, the mass sightings in Phoenix and Seattle, and the UFO crash in Nova Brasilandia--is any indication, we could be in for a rough saucer ride during 1998. But UFO ROUNDUP will be there, bringing you complete coverage of the continuing drama of the unidentified flying object. Here's wishing all our readers a "Happy New Year!" from "the paper that goes home--UFO ROUNDUP." UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1997 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from UFO ROUNDUP on their websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 28 Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:42:33 PST Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:26:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 21:26:24 -0500 > From: Peregrine Mendoza <101653.2205@compuserve.com> [Peter Brookesmith] > Subject: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > With the compliments & best wishes for 1998 of the Duke of > Mendoza. > >Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 09:03:38 -0800 > >From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> > >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > >Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > [polla snipperata] > >There are no standards of evidence and no > >standards of conduct in this arena. That has to change. The > >present practice of ufological wisdom is to simply ignore the > >improprieties when they occur in the hope that they go away > >unoticed and be forgotten and not to ask for clarification. > Sock it to 'em, Ed. It is my observation that to qualify (the > test, score and parchment are all, of course, self-administered) > as either an "agnostic" or an "expert" in this non-field it is > necessary to exclude from one's view many uncomfortable things, > but an absolute exclusion zone surrounds moral issues. My friend Peter, in my experience, is often confused, but never so much as here. There are, of course, standards of evidence, and these get debated all the time. Improprieties are not ignored; they are discussed at huge length. The amount of internal criticism within ufology is remarkable and commendable. Peter really ought to read the UFO literature more, or at least allow a glimmer of light to shine through a mind otherwise shut tight. The point is that Mr. Stewart was making an unusually big mountain out of an unusually small molehill, all in the interest of the venerable blood sport of Budd-bashing. The degree of incivility, moreover, in the Stewart rant struck more than one observer as rather extraordinary. My experience is that it is among Peter's debunking pals, not among sensible ufologists, that "an absolute exclusion zone surrounds moral issues," as even disillusioned skeptics (McIver, Lippard, Rawlins, et al.) have had occasion to learn. I mean, Peter actually defends Donald Menzel -- all the while posing as some sort of moral arbiter. Give US a break, guy. > [Mikro snippera] > >Ufology refuses to clean itself > >up and tries to cover its own undisclipline by involking dark > >conspiracies keeping the "truth" away. Yet, it won't lift a > >finger to clear up inconsistencies in its own ufological wisdom. > >And if a messenger comes along and points it out, that person > >obviously "does not merit a serious response". Consequently, >the > real issue brought up in the first place is never mentioned > >and the thread becomes imbroiled in rhetoric over style of > >communication and choice of words. How dare someone point out > >duplicity by ufological luminaries? And to do this in a UFO > >mailing list? How contentious the sacrilege of disrespect > >towards a UFO illuminary and question his apparent duplicity? ................ > I hope I am not the only one hereabouts to say, and not merely > think, that all you (Ed) did was: articulate the obvious and > enquire what Budd Hopkins proposed to do about it. I hope I am not > the only one to say and not merely think that the season of > goodwill has nothing to do with whether this should be pointed > out, or whether the "guy" should be given "a break" that, at an > time of year, he does not merit. Bumbling is bumbling and bullshit > is bullshit. You don't have to be a Budd-basher to observe, or to > say, that. Having written and published more criticism of ufology and ufologists than probably anybody living, I agree that "bullshit is bullshit," and so I recognize it when I see it, and I see it a large share of the substance in the above. Meantime, my modest plea for civility and a sense of proportion continues to go ignored here. Jerry Clark Search for other documents from or mentioning: clark | 101653.2205 |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 28 'Civil and Uncivil Wars' From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:05:58 PST Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:36:33 -0500 Subject: 'Civil and Uncivil Wars' Hi, everybody, Those of you following recent discussions on the list regard civility in ufological debate may find the following of interest. It's an editorial I wrote, titled "Civil and Uncivil Wars," in the May/June 1992 issue of IUR: The longer I observe what goes on inside ufology, the more I am struck by the ordinariness of ufologists. Ufologists, of course, do not like to think of themselves as ordinary. They prefer the ego-inflating view that they are unique in their imperfections, and not a year passes that we cannot count on reading one, two, or -- if the hysteria aspires to mass status -- more jeremiads about the essential wickedness of ufologists. Every flagellant's favorite complaint, of course, is that ufologists can't seem to get along with each other, and ufology's critics are only too happy to join the choir. John Keel, for example, sings with benumbing regularity of ufology's penchant for internal blood-letting which, according to him, is just about all we do. Even many of ufology's sympathizers morbidly delight in wringing their hands and bleating about "disunity," my personal nomination for our most tiresome shibboleth. In fact, ufologists behave exactly as human beings everywhere and in all circumstances have always behaved. Ufology's shortcomings are every subculture's shortcomings, whether that subculture consists of physical anthropologists at each other's throats over human-origins questions or (as an IUR reader who once was in the business remarked to me not long ago) raisers of sled dogs. Whole books have been written on the bitter conflicts, personal as much as intellectual, that have raged within anthropology, paleontology, psychology, AIDS research, and other disparate-personality assemblages called, often in spite of themselves, "communities." My late friend D. Scott Rogo used to regale me with lurid tales of parapsychology's internecine conflicts, which usually had the effect of making me feel better about our own. In fact, conflict within any community built around a concept, a practice, a belief, or a perceived body of knowledge is inevitable. How could it be otherwise? The only persons who don't fight over ideas are those who have none, and such individuals are not attracted to any pursuit that requires them to think. To have a strong opinion, you must have a strong personality, and if you have a strong personality, you're ready, willing, and able to argue. We can all lament, of course, the personalization (or the politicization) of issues, but we ought also to understand that not all debates arise from thinly disguised personal (or political) disputes. In recent years we at CUFOS have taken, from time to time, dissenting positions on particular cases or approaches. We did so out of honest difference of opinion, and most of our colleagues understand and respected our stand even when they disagreed with it. None of this stopped a few befuddled mopes from whispering that our real motive was to undercut rival organizations. This is not only untrue but absurdly untrue, since (a) the UFO phenomenon is endlessly fascinating and challenging, (b) interorganizational rivalry is endlessly tedious and pointless, and (c) we are not crazy. Any sufferer who devotes more than one and a half nanoseconds' thought a year to "power" struggles between UFO organizations has our sincerest wish for a quick recovery or, failing that, rapid relocation to another frog pond. One suspects that much of the talk about ufological "unity" masks an authoritarian desire to impose uniformity of opinion where none exists or, so far as that goes, ought to exist. If one group disdains Claim X and another embraces it, why should either not say so and, moreover, argue its case as vigorously as possible? Isn't such debate an essential part of the truth-seeking process? We can rightly insist that the debate center on evidence and logic, as opposed to mud and bombast. Experience tells us, as we all know, that personality conflict may well assert itself sooner or later, but if we can do nothing else about that, we can ensure that it stays out of the published exchanges. Some other things to avoid or to do: (1) Refrain from suing each other. (2) Don't even contemplate embarking, however much his foolishly misguided beliefs drive you to distraction, on a dirt- hunting archaeological expedition into your adversary's personal history. (3) Instead, be cordial when you meet. (At every conference I attend, I encounter individuals with whom I have profound intellectual disagreements and with whom I end up having a great time, during which I learn something and occasionally even -- gasp -- undergo a change of mind. If you haven't had that happy experience yourself, you would do well to search your soul. The number of irredeemably nasty persons in this field is actually quite small, for which the rest of us can be relieved and grateful. Like most people, most ufologists are decent and benignly intentioned.) (4) Accept the simple, if incredible, fact that not everyone who disagrees with you is dumb, brainwashed, venal, or employed by a Certain Intelligence Agency. (5) Always bear in mind the possibility, however farfetched, that you could be wrong. (6) And remember, whenever two persons agree absolutely, one of them is unnecessary.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 28 NASA Plans Return to the Moon From: RSchatte <RSchatte@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:12:03 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:40:09 -0500 Subject: NASA Plans Return to the Moon From: AOL News <AOLNews@aol.com> Return-path: <AOLNews@aol.com> Subject: NASA Plans Return to the Moon Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:04:32 EST NASA Plans Return to the Moon .c The Associated Press By MARCIA DUNN CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) - Twenty-five years after men last roamed the moon, NASA is returning with a little robot named Prospector. Diminutive as it is and cheap, too, NASA's 4-foot Lunar Prospector will search for something more precious to scientists than gold: evidence of frozen water at the moon's poles. The spacecraft also will rummage for gases and minerals that, like polar ice, could be used by human settlers. It will attempt all this during a one-year orbital mapping mission, set to begin with a Jan. 5 launch. ``We're interested in low-paying resources since, if as I do believe we will have man back on the moon in the not-too-distant future and build a base, we have to learn to live off the land,'' said Alan Binder, chief scientist for Prospector and head of the Lunar Research Institute in Gilroy, Calif. NASA has no plans to send astronauts back to the moon or anywhere else beyond low Earth orbit. Of the possible destinations, Mars beckons most brightly. However, if Prospector detects evidence of water-forming ice in the dark, cratered regions of the moon's poles, confirming findings from the Defense Department's Clementine spacecraft, lunar exploration almost certainly would be revitalized. At the very least, more robots would be dispatched, NASA Administrator Daniel Goldin said. A lunar camp could follow, with astronauts mining the water and separating it into hydrogen and oxygen, basic components of the most efficient rocket fuel. Such a fueling depot could launch spaceships back to Earth, and on to Mars and beyond. The water also might be used for drinking. ``You might decide if it was a large enough supply to pipe it from the poles to wherever you put your base,'' said Michael Drake, director of the Lunar and Planetary Laboratory at the University of Arizona in Tucson. But he added: ``Nothing that Prospector will find will make or break a lunar base.'' Prospector - which, at 653 pounds, weighs considerably less than all the rock and dirt brought back by the 12 moonwalkers - will survey the lunar surface from a 60-mile-high polar orbit for a full year. If there's enough fuel, the drumlike spacecraft will continue to collect data for an additional six months from an orbit as low as six miles. The cost of the endeavor: $63 million, including a mere $20 million for Prospector and $28 million for Lockheed Martin Corp.'s newfangled Athena 2 rocket. It's part of a low-cost, fast-paced NASA exploration program called Discovery, which guided Pathfinder to a stunning Mars landing last July 4 and has the Near spacecraft en route to a 1999 rendezvous with an asteroid. Why go back to the moon, inspected by nearly 40 U.S. and Soviet orbiters and landers from 1959 through the mid-1970s and nine Apollo crews - 24 men - from December 1968 through December 1972? ``The reality is we've only just scratched the surface of the moon and there's a lot we still have to learn,'' explained Drake. The Apollo missions, for instance, stuck to the moon's equatorial regions. Prospector, like Clementine, will orbit from pole to pole and thus provide global views. One of Prospector's five science instruments will measure gamma rays emitted from the lunar surface to determine the amount of uranium, aluminum, iron, silicon, titanium and other elements. The findings will help scientists answer The Question: Did something the size of Mars slam into Earth some 4 billion years ago, as is presently believed, and rip off chunks of terra firma that became our moon? Another instrument will try to detect carbon dioxide, nitrogen and other gases believed to be seeping from the moon's interior. Still another, a neutron spectrometer, will measure hydrogen, deposited in small amounts in the lunar soil by the solar wind. The more hydrogen found, the more likely the presence of frozen water. Scientists announced in December 1996 that Clementine, launched by the military in 1994 to test missile-detecting sensors, had discovered evidence of water ice in a giant crater at the moon's south pole. The crater is so deep - an estimated 7 1/2 miles - that sunlight never penetrates the lower parts. Such permanent shadow could cause water from impacting comets to remain locked in the lunar soil. Skeptics contend these patches are not ice but rather rough surfaces on the steep slopes of the crater. Prospector will help settle the debate. ``Whether this is true or not ... it's very important to find out what the resource inventory on the moon is,'' Drake said. ``If humans leave this planet to permanently inhabit a base on another planetary object, the most likely place we're going to go to first is the moon simply because it's easy to get to. It's easy to get back from if something bad happens. And it's relatively inexpensive compared probably to going to Mars.'' Even though NASA has no firm lunar plans beyond Prospector, Japan's space agency is gearing up for a series of robotic visits over the next several years to pave the way for possible human exploration. Apollo 17 commander Eugene Cernan would love to see someone - American, Japanese, whomever - follow in his lunar footsteps. ``I stand here 25 years later being the last man to have left his footprints on the surface of the moon,'' Cernan told a Cape Canaveral crowd on the anniversary of his Dec. 7, 1972, launch. ``That is a truly unique and special honor, but it is also a significant, overwhelming disappointment. Not because I did it, but because I'm still the last person, human being, man or woman, to have left footprints on the surface of the moon.'' AP-NY-12-28-97 1201EST Copyright 1997 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without prior written authority of The Associated Press.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 29 Re: Costa Rica Sighting From: troodon@netnitco.net [David Orr] Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:32:46 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 00:33:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Costa Rica Sighting >From: "Len Fedullo" <lenf1@snip.net> >To: "Errol Bruce-Knapp" <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Costa Rica Sighting >Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:51:50 -0800 >Errol, >I thought that your readers might be interested in this recent >siting in Costa Rica. The story is from CNN. >Len Fedullo >************************************************************** <snip> >On December 22 cameramen from two local television channels >filmed at least a dozen "flying saucers" in the sky south of the >Costa Rican capital. Does anyone know if these pictures are on the web yet? Good fortune, safe travels David Orr Push the button, Frank. ******************************** TRANSMISSION ENDED. ********************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 29 Re: Sect Awaits 'His' Arrival In Dallas From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:00:20 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 00:41:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Sect Awaits 'His' Arrival In Dallas >From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates] >Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 02:04:47 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sect Awaits 'His' Arrival In Dallas >> What Edgar Cayce gave to humanity, was selfless, not selfish. >> He asked nothing in return. In fact, he did not want the >> gift he was given. Yet, he was the vehicle through which it >> expressed. ><snip> >> REgards, Mike >Cayce himself may have been the nicest guy that ever lived, >although as you admit, he was only partially right. >The same is true of Gorden Michael Scallion and his earth changes >claims/theories. About half or more of the time he is wrong and >has admitted it. >What I simply point out is in the early 70s, everybody was >claiming that Cayce/Nostrodamus was saying the end of the world, >armeggeddon was going to happen in 1975. Then it was 79, then 85 >then.... >In economics remember the book Bankruptcy 1995 by figgy and some >other guy who claimed in the early 90s that the US would be >bankrupt, could go no deeper in debt then 5 trillion or all this >doom and gloom would happen. >Well 1995 came and went, the US is already passed 5 trillion in >debt and the end of the world still hasn't happened. >Bottom line is don't quit your day job based upon the alleged end >of the world/Armeggeddon pronouncements of Cayce, Scallion or >anybody else. >Cheers, >Robert Grin...well, Robert, I can't say that I don't agree with you.I take most of this material with a grain of salt. Yet, I don't just trash it because it is speculative. I tend to use this information to gage the advancement of humanity. So long as mankind depends on others to chart their path thorugh life, they are always open to the deception of Charalatans. This is exactly what will usher in the so called Anti-Christ. If mankind were more self sufficient, and looked within themselves for the answers, they wouldn't be such easy prey for these people. Take care, Robert. Happy New Year. REgards, Mike
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 29 Re: Mantle's 'Article' From: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de (Joachim Koch) Date: 28 Dec 97 16:07:00 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 00:48:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Mantle's 'Article' >Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 00:28:32 -0500 >From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Mantle's 'Article' >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Regarding... >On Theresa's dedicated, exceptional and absolutely conclusive >research - Theresa being the first to _prove_ the video was a >special effect - duh... this merits a separate comment and in due >course. >James. >E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com Recently, a team of film producers from Munich, Germany, has contacted us. They became aware of the autopsy-video which is distributed and promoted here in Germany by Mr. Hesemann. He (or his company) claims that this video contains the complete, original footage as it came from the reels without any cut. They informed us that they are able to prove that these claims are false and that the video they have bought shows severals cuts. Greetings Joachim Koch *Homepage International Roswell Initiative, Germany:* > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jkoch1 < *Update December 20,1997*: News about the "Santilli-Film" Other items: Lesotho-Crash, Crop Circles, Betty Hill's Star Map
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 29 Re: Back Stabbing From: "Serge Salvaille" <sergesa@connectmmic.net> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 15:30:42 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 01:37:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Back Stabbing >From: Ufojoe1 <Ufojoe1@aol.com> [Joe Murgia] >Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:45:14 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Back Stabbing [...] >I joined this list because of all the impressive names that >subscribed to it. I figured I could learn a lot of things with >regards to ufology as well as being able to ask questions of some >of the more knowledgeable people on the list. >Unfortunately, as it turns out, most of the messages on this list >are dedicated to slamming individuals in the field of ufology and >people on this list. It's so disappointing that this is what this >list has turned out to be. [...] Joe, Every morning I open my computer, my first task is to get my e-mail to see what is new on the List. At a conservative 150 posts a week, guess I read near 8,000 posts in a year. I may take an hour of spare time I don't have and send in my two cents. My posts don't always make it to the list for reasons known only to Errol. I understand that, with all the flames and combustibles going around, sometimes a spark is one too many. I wonder what previous life Errol has lived to have to endure such a karma :) Since I have joined the list, I must have made a few gray hairs, mainly from the sheer impossibility of taking ALL my time answering the prepostrous, the grotesque and the pretentious. If there are pearls to be discovered, you mostly keep those to yourself in case they turn out to be potassium nitrate crystals in the dung. Aside from getting hot news on very interesting sightings (take the Costa Rica post for example) the experience of the List is unique and invaluable in at least one way: it allows you to KNOW THE PEOPLE. This has no price. Just think of this: the next time you get to a bookstore or attend a conference, what will your feelings be when you recognize the names of some prominent Ufologists(!) here on the list? Will you buy the book or the ticket? I bet your present choices will be much more enlightened because you joined this List. Serge Salvaille
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 29 Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 50 From: "Tom Burnett" <burnettc@gte.net> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:12:21 -1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 02:00:12 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 50 > From: Masinaigan <Masinaigan@aol.com> > Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:37:44 EST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Fwd: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 2, Number 50 > UFO ROUNDUP > Volume 2, Number 50 > December 28, 1997 > Editor: Joseph Trainor > BRITISH JETLINER SIGHTS > GIANT UFO OVER YORKSHIRE > On Monday, December 8, 1997, a Boeing 737, > owned by British Midland Airways, took off from > London's Heathrow Airport for a flight to Belfast, > Northern Ireland. > At 2:15 p.m., the jetliner was flying over > Liverpool on a northwesterly heading. Then one of > the passengers spotted a very large UFO off the right > wingtip at an estimated distance of 150 miles > (240 kilometers). > According to Miles Johnston of the British UFO > Research Association (BUFORA), "It was a very big, > black, thin vehicle, with a very bright white tip. It moved > at all times very slowly but was of considerable size. > Relative width-to-length ratio of 20:1." > The UFO was described as "a cigar-shaped object" > 2,000 feet (667 meters) long. > The UFO "was seen almost on the horizon (at) > approximately the same height as the Boeing 737, > 33,000 feet...This would position the UFO approximately > over Yorkshire," Johnston reported, "The UFO was > observed by a passenger on the plane for 15 minutes." > Below the UFO was "heavy thick cloud" cover that > made it impossible for the object to be seen from the > ground. "After 15 minutes, the object flew slowly flew > into very high clouds over the region." Prior to that, > "the object was visible at all times in bright, clear > sunlight." (See Filer's Files #51 for December 24, 1997. > Many thanks to George A. Filer of MUFON for this > report.) I originally let this go because I thought someone else would speak up, but I guess not. It is absolutely impossible, using Mk1, Mod0 eyeballs, to see much of anything at a distance of 150 miles horizontally through the atmosphere, much less identify it's shape and size. The AQ (fire control) radar in an F-14 can paint targets at about that distance but it is well beyond visual range. Aircraft, even large ones with landing lights on flying directly towards an airborne observer are not visible past 15 or 20 miles. It should be possible to see a shuttle or large rocket launch at that distance for a few seconds as it reached the upper atmosphere but it would not be identifiable as anything but a bright light. Furthermore, at a cruising speed of around 480 knots, an observer in the window seat of a B-737 would not be able to see an external object for more than a few seconds in any case unless it were on a similar flight path, which means it was probably in a commercial air corridor. I have flown on commercial airliners a little. Observing the tips of the aircraft's wings through the double-pane plexiglass is difficult. Identifying an object within your field of view on the ground from 33,000 feet is no easy chore. Identifying something in the air at a distance of more than about 15 miles through optics like that is problematical at best. This report sounds remarkably like another heavy aircraft at the same altitude on a similar flight path with a horizontal separation of about 10 miles. Would any other pilots or airline passengers care to comment? Aloha Tom Burnett
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 29 Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] From: Peregrine Mendoza <101653.2205@compuserve.com> [Peter Brookesmith] Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 19:31:01 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 02:55:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] The Duke of Mendoza presents his compliments. >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] >Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:42:33 PST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] >The point is that Mr. Stewart was making an unusually big >mountain out of an unusually small molehill, all in the >interest of the venerable blood sport of Budd-bashing. The POINT is that whatever the size of the issue, the fact remains Budd Hopkins has done one thing and said another and the two are in conflict. You don't (I repeat) have to be Budd-basher to say that. I don't even know if this is one of Ed Stewart's sports, and don't much care. I was rather under the impression that he was more interested in the matter of duplicity, regardless of source. Have you been mind-reading again? >The degree of incivility, moreover, in the Stewart rant >struck more than one observer as rather extraordinary. So what? You're still not addressing the issue. Some observers might feel that you are not always civil. Some might say the same of me. At least neither of us eats peas off a knife. Among many options, you can choose to brush that aside & get on with the argument (in the sense of debate, discussion, &c &c) or pump out a smokescreen about civility. I see smoke, or possibly steam, from Canby at the moment, and not for the first time. But then I am deeply confused as everyone knows and hardly know east from west at the best of times and frequently wear odd socks and different parts of different suits simultaneously, a trick I picked up from John Michell. >I mean, Peter actually defends Donald Menzel -- all the while >posing as some sort of moral arbiter. Give US a break, guy. More smoke, irrelevance and plain misrepresentation. I will defend anyone including Menzel or Budd Hopkins or your good self when their conclusions appear to the best of my knowledge & judgement to be sane & sensible, and put in the boot when I think they including those of Menzel and Budd Hopkins and your good self are not. No doubt this is the consequence of having a mind that is tight shut (but not so tight you cannot read it). So what Menzel or his morals has to do with Budd Hopkins & his I do not know, except that your connexion of them smells smokey to me and *sounds* like an incantation. Hopkins's morals *are* at issue here & in other contexts - matters about which I am anything but confused - but, for whatever reason, you choose to overlook them, when not becoming ventilated when attention is drawn to Hopkins's errant ways. (I do not mean here to suggest *all* his ways are errant.) Stick to the point, Jerry, do, and you can have all the breaks you like. The point is not [in]civility (read your own editorial again!) and it is not Donald Menzel and it is not your erudition or even mine, about which you so like to pass comment but wot so little of. It is why you choose to dismiss comment on Hopkins's behavior with a (seasonal) wave of the hand; it is possibly even what you mean by the words "sense of proportion" in so doing. Ed Stewart has his own way of putting that. Why don't you just address what he says, or justify your "defense" of Hopkins? best wishes Persimmon D. Molasses Sweet Young Thing
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 29 Re: 'Civil and Uncivil Wars' From: Peregrine Mendoza <101653.2205@compuserve.com> [Peter Brookesmith] Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 19:53:48 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 03:49:04 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Civil and Uncivil Wars' The Duke of Mendoza presents his compliments. {cf. also: posts on "Back Stabbing'} >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] >Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:05:58 PST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: civil and uncivil wars <Mighty snip, after all you've all read it before.> Heavens, Jerry, it's conceivable I couldn't have put it better myself, though I think there may be a middle way rather than something as absolutist as: >(6) And remember, whenever two persons agree absolutely, >one of them is unnecessary. I lately was forwarded the following, which apparently was put out anonymously, and struck me as entertainingly pertinent. -------------- [Sorry to interupt His Grace. I was sent this 'list' a while ago along with several copies from other subscribers. I've been reluctant to post it because of its 'annonymous' nature. It's interesting that Boylan places himself as only number three 'Good Guy' -- ebk] UFOLOGY's The GOOD, The BAD, and The UGLY Key to categories: Bad=harms UFO truth; Ugly=unreliable Good=helps UFO truth emerge Bad Guys/Gals (partial list) Colonel John Alexander, USA, DIA, INSCOM, (ret.), Ph.D., Bigelow's NIDS, Aviary, suspected as a leader in "The [UFO Cover-Up] Cabal" Walter Andrus, USN-ONI ("ret."), director, MUFON, sophisticated disinformation ops Robert Baker, Ph.D., psychologist/debunker Bob Bigelow, Las Vegas/New Mexico casinos billionaire/suspected Intelligence money-laundry Peter Brookesmith, writer/UFO debunker Jerome Clark, editor, IUFOR/super-sophisticated disinfomationer/agitator Major Ed Dames, DIA, INSCOM, ("ret."), head of PSI-Tech, remote-viewing disinformer Sergeant Richard Doty, USAF-OSI ("ret."), UFO secrets-"informant"/disinformer Stanton Friedman, M.S., nuclear engineer, super-sophisticated disinformer/agitator Christopher "Kit" Green, M.D., Ph.D., General Motors officer, former top UFO official at CIA, head of Bigelow's NIDS Institute's Scientific Advisory Board Richard Hall, Intelligence mole within Fund for UFO Research James Harder, Ph.D., "abductions investigator"/Intel mole Budd Hopkins, artist, "abductions investigator"/disinformer Admiral Bobbie Ray Inman, USN ("ret."), "ex"-NSA official, head of Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC) and UFO black-ops twin, Decision Science Applications, Inc David Jacobs, Ph.D., historian/"abductions investigator"/disinformer Phillip Klass, aerospace writer/UFO debunker Kal Korff, UFO debunker John Lear, "former" CIA-operative/disinformer Ted Oliphant, UFO "investigator"/Intel mole/"information vacuumer" Richard Sauder, Ph.D., underground bases "investigator"/sophisticated disinformer Derrel Sims,"ex"-CIA operative/"abductions investigator"/disinformation propagandist Dennis Stacy, ex-editor, MUFON Journal, disinformer/debunker General Al "Bert" Stubblebine, USA, DIA, INSCOM (remote viewing)/Intel mole "Val Valerian", (cryptonym of John Grace, Air Force Intelligence operative), disinformer Jacques Vallee, Ph.D., scientist/UFO-"spokesperson"/super-sophisticated disinformer George Wackenhut, head of security organization for Area 51/S-4 Uglies (Unreliables): (partial list) Art Bell, mole/information-"vacuumer"/super-sophisticated disinformer Graham Birdsall, editor of UK magazine UFO, sophisticated disinformation "asset" Professor Courtney Brown, mis-trained by Major Ed Dames to "remote-view" UFOs and ETs Glen Campbell, Area 51 "investigator", super-sophisticated disinformer Martin Cannon, mind-control investigator/disinformer Peter Davenport, "ex"-National Security Agency operative; head of National UFO Reporting Ctr. Michael Hesemann, UFO investigator/information vacuumer for Prince Hans Adam of Lichenstein Linda M. Howe, "useful fool" for super-sophisticated Intel information-vacuuming/propaganda Commander Scott Jones, USN (ret.), Ph.D., "ex"-Intelligence officer/"paranormal investigator" Roger Leir, D.P.M., implants investigator-extracter/"useful fool" for partner Derrel Sims of CIA Bob Oechsler, UFO investigator, "useful fool" for spreading sophisticated UFO disinformation Kevin Randle, UFO investigator, agit-prop ops Yvonne Smith, abductions investigator, in the past spread sophisticated UFO disinformation Good Guys (partial list) David Adair, former contract scientific consultant to NASA on UFO propulsion technology Colin Andrews, crop circles investigator Richard Boylan, Ph.D., psychologist/ET encounters researcher John Carpenter, LCSW, ET encounters researcher-therapist Sean Casteel, UFO investigative journalist Scott Catamas, UFO investigative journalist-TV producer James Courant, commercial pilot, UFO investigator-journalist Major Gordon Cooper, USAF, (ret.), Apollo astronaut, UFO reality publicist Lt. Colonel Phillip Corso, USA., (ret.), custodian of Roswell UFO; UFO reality publicist Marc Davenport, UFO investigator/journalist Command Sergeant-Major Robert Dean, USA/NATO, (ret.), UFO reality publicist Jose Escamilla, UFO photographer Timothy Good, top UFO investigator Steven Greer, M.D., director, Committee for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence (CSETI) William Hamilton, UFO investigator/journalist Norio Hayakawa, UFO investigator, (but has accepted disinformation about ET motives) Richard Hoagland, scientist, investigator of ET artifacts on Mars and the Moon Jack Kasher, Ph.D., professor, UFO investigator Captain Guy Kirkwood, USAF, Special Projects (ret.), AKA "Mel Noel", UFO investigator Robert Lazar, former physicist at Los Alamos and Area 51/S-4, UFO reality publicist Michael Lindemann, UFO writer-publisher Ted Loman, UFO investigative journalist-TV producer John Mack, M.D., Harvard Psychiatry Professor, ET encounters researcher-therapist Jesse Marcel, Jr., M.D., son of Intelligence officer at Roswell Saucer, UFO reality publicist Jim Marrs, investigative journalist, UFO reality publicist Jamie Mausson, investigative TV journalist-producer, UFO reality publicist Edgar Mitchell, Ph.D., Apollo astronaut, UFO reality publicist Brian O'Leary, Ph.D., Mars Mission astronaut, UFO reality publicist Tech Sergeant Dan Sherman, USAF, NSA (ret.), ET communications expert/UFO reality publicist Leo Sprinkle, Ph.D., psychologist, ET encounters researcher Colonel Wendelle Stevens, USAF (ret.), UFO investigator/journalist Whitley Strieber, ET encounters investigator/journalist Colonel Donald Ware, USAF (ret.), UFO investigator, metaphysician Michael Wolf, M.D., Ph.D., Sc.D., J.D., repentant member of MJ-12 Special Studies Group, UFO reality publicist ------------------ You just can't win, can you. Whoever you are. best Proboscis D. Mastodon Fearsome Creature
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 29 Spaulding & Heflin Pictures [was: Brasilia's From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 23:50:56 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 04:08:52 -0500 Subject: Spaulding & Heflin Pictures [was: Brasilia's >Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 21:26:24 -0500 >From: Peregrine Mendoza <101653.2205@compuserve.com> [Peter Brookesmith] >Subject: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> <MAGNUM SNIPERINO> >Bumbling is bumbling and bullshit >is bullshit. You don't have to be a Budd-basher to observe, or to >say, that. >I am reminded of Bruce Maccabee pleading with Bill Spaulding not >to release his finding that the Heflin pix were hokum, because the >skeptics might make much of it. The insecurity may or may not be >pathological, but it is of a piece. And it floats. >best wishes >Poultice D. Mentholation >Soothing Balm Dear Poultice and Soothing Balm... or is that Bomb? You have apparently misinterpreted 20 years old events here, regarding Bill Spaulding and the Heflin pix. My "pleading" with Spaulding was not, as one might gather from your paragraph, made from a condition of worrying about the skeptics or worrying about what could happen to Spaulding or me or ufology if Spaulding called Heflin a hoaxer. If I addressed the skeptics at all (I don't recall now) it was from the point of view that if Spaulding were wrong, then this would be giving the skeptics ammunition they didn't deserve. Anyway, I strongly advised him that if here were going to publish a paper demonstrating a Heflin hoax then he had better provide photographic evidence of the fakery that would good enough to convince the "true believers.". You see, Spaulding had publicly claimed the photos were hoaxes, so he was committed to that point of view (Heflin = hoax). He had claimed that he could prove it but virtually no one believed him because he hadn't provided any proof. Then he wrote a paper which contained what he called the proof. I reviewed the paper and could see what he was talking about, but could also see that the layman wouldn't understand. So I told him he'd better do an enhancement that would make the "evidence" obvious to everyone. Spaulding took my advice and produced excellent color contoured versions ("enhancements") of the Heflin photos in which there were clearly straight lines above the UFO in photos 2 and 3 of Heflin (taken through the right hand window). These straight lies went from the top of the UFO image to the edge of the window, consistent with some small model hanging from a suspension outside the truck. "True believers" in the Heflin case really had nothing they could say because Spaulding's enhancements said it all. I tested Spaulding by sending him a print which he then used in his enhancement process. (Previously he had used prints which he had gotten from Stanton Friedman. Spaulding had not returned the Friedman prints. The Friedman prints had been made from copy negatives in possession of Robert Nathan. These copy negatives had, in turn, been made at the El Toro marine base in 1965 soon after the sighting. When Robert Nathan saw Spauldings lines above the UFO he said.."Where did he get those?" or words to that effect... I know, because I was in his office when he said it. Nathan averred that he had never found any evidence of hoaxing in Heflin's photos...and certainly not lines above the UFOs. I might point out that Nathan worked with much better equipment than Spaulding had.) The enhancement made from my print (which was made in 1966 by NICAP photo expert Ralph Rankow) did not show this supposed suspension as clearly, although my print was of excellent quality. However, there did seem to be something there. Spaulding returned my print and I examined it for evidence of tampering by Spaulding. Why would I do that? Because I thought it possible that Spaulding had hoaxed his analysis and had created the lines in the enhance ments to support his already published hoax claim. I could not see any evidence of tampering with the print. I therefore had to conclude that the "line" above the UFO really was there (in spite of Nathan's protestations). Now we are 20 years after the Spaulding analysis. Spaulding himself dropped out of sight years ago. But, what to our wondering eyes should appear. but (no, not 8 tiny reindeer) the ORIGINAL HEFLIN PHOTOS which were "borrowed" by the Air Force (according to Heflin) way back in 1965 and have been missing for 32 years (about). Yes, folks, the original photos returned about a year ago..... So now SOMEONE can, presumably find out who is the hoaxer.... Spaulding or Heflin (or both????) So put that in your poultice and smoke it.... And, yes, let's use as much bullshit repellant as is necessary.......................
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 29 Re: Help needed (Moore's docs on green fireballs) From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 00:36:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 04:17:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Help needed (Moore's docs on green fireballs) >Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 17:18:27 +0100 >From: Edoardo Russo <edoardo.russo@torino.ALPcom.it> >Subject: Help needed (Moore's docs on green fireballs) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Hello friends! >May I ask for another bit of help from you? >Italian researcher Giuseppe Stilo is completing a work on the >green fireballs over the South-western USA in the late '40s. >We got most available sources on that (from FBI files to Project >Twinkle, from IUR articles to MUFON Symposium proceedings), but >we could not get copy of any of Bill Moore's FWP documents on t>hat subject. >Is there anybody able to let us have copy of it? >Thanks in advance< For green fireball documents I suggest you contact the Fund for UFO Research which has been compiling GF documents. Also, I have included sections from many of these documents from the Air Force intelligence and FBI in my manuscript/book THE UFO-FBI CONNECTION/ the REAL X-files. This is the reason that fireball sightings affected the FBI: most of the sightings were made by security guards around nuclear-related laboratories in the western USA and the FBI was responsible for preventing communist sabotage at these laboratories. J. Edgar Hoover, director of the FBI at the time, was told several times by his agents that the fireballs were probably Soviet missile devices. I show in my book that Hoover apparently broke security by divulging to a radio news commentator the information that flying saucers and fireballs were real devices built by the Soviet Union. Anyway, if you are interested in more information of a copy of the manuscript send email to brumac@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 29 PROJECT-1947 - Early sightings of UFOs From: OregonOtto <OregonOtto@AOL.COM> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 01:22:28 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:46:59 -0500 Subject: PROJECT-1947 - Early sightings of UFOs From: OregonOtto <OregonOtto@aol.com> To: WEINSTEIND@compuserve.com Subject: Early sightings of UFOs Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:12:17 EST Dominique Weinstein, I just received today your Aircraft UFO Encounters (from Aldrich) and I am really impressed with the good work you have done. I realize what follows is not a "aircraft sighting " but it is of great interest to me because of the date and the location. A famous artist Nicholas Roerich traveled on a long and arduous trip through the Orient from 1924-1928 in which he traveled through India, Sikhm, Mongolia, China and Tibet. His epic journey had many harrowing encounters even though he had many official documents to assist him, he traveled in remote and dangerous areas where they were almost completely useless. There have been many articles, monographs written about his works, travels and his art. There is even a Roerich Museum in New York at this time. In a book that includes his travel descriptions and diary notes there is an interesting observation on page 360 of the book , Altai- Himalaya written by Roerich. Aug. 25, 1926 "-something remarkable! We were in our camp in the Kukumor district not far from the Humboldt Chain. In the morning about half past nine some of our caravaneers noticed a remarkably big black eagle flying above us. Seven of us began to watch this usual bird. At this same moment another of our caravaneers remarked, "There is something far above the bird". And he shouted his astonishment. We all saw, in a direction from north to south , something big and shiny reflecting sun, like a huge oval moving at great speed. Crossing our camp this thing changed in its direction from south to southwest. And we saw how it diapered in the intense blue sky. We even had time to take out field glasses and saw quite distinctly an oval form with a shiny surface, one side which was brilliant from the sun". He also painted a picture of it which I saw on a general program about UFOs last year. I was able to make a copy of the segment and it certainly looks a symmetrical metalic-like object to me. I must also add, there no doubt in my mind that this was a tactical weather balloon sent up by the Mongolian cavalry in order to check the wind direction and to locate fodder slopes. No wonder they once conquered the world ! I really admire the work you have collected and please keep your research moving. I will probably send for a second copy soon. With your permission, I would like to forward this letter to the 1947 group as well. Qoute from Altai Himalya, Nicholas Roerich- ArunPress, Brookfield Conn. 1983 Jim Doerter (Retired Prof.of Art) + OregonOtto@aol.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 29 Star Clipper Solar Eclipse Cruise From: RSchatte <RSchatte@aol.com> [Rebecca Keith] Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 09:45:36 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:48:44 -0500 Subject: Star Clipper Solar Eclipse Cruise From: AOL News <AOLNews@aol.com> Return-path: <AOLNews@aol.com> Subject: Star Clipper Solar Eclipse Cruise Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 05:24:39 EST Star Clipper Solar Eclipse Cruise EL PASO, Texas, Dec. 29 /PRNewswire/ -- Dr. Alan Hale and Tom Bopp, co-discoverers of Comet Hale-Bopp will sail on the Star Clipper from Antigua February 21, 1998 to observe a total solar eclipse. The Star Clipper will visit Isles des Saintes, Martinique, St. Lucia and Dominica. On Thursday, February 26, she will dock beside Guadaloupe to observe a total solar eclipse. She will visit St. Barths and be back in Antigua Saturday the 28th. The Star Clipper is a true multimasted 360 foot long, tall sailing ship with all modern amenities including an on board dive-shop, two swimming pools, piano bar and Victorian library. A modern ship she is, built in the early 90's, she is powered by almost an acre of sails. Alan Hale and Tom Bopp hope to observe Comet Hale-Bopp one last time before it fades away. The comet is still visible from southern latitudes. Cruise only fares are $1,845 to $2,375 per person. Port charges ($118) and gratuities ($56) are additional. Solar eclipse viewing glasses and a commemorative t-shirt are included. Special air fares are available. For information call Tropical Adventures, 915-595-1003 or 800-595-1003. CO: Tropical Adventures ST: Texas IN: LEI SU:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 29 Re: Mantle's 'Article' From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:10:05 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:49:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Mantle's 'Article' >From: koch@wad.berlin.fido.de (Joachim Koch) >Date: 28 Dec 97 16:07:00 +0000 >Subject: Re: Mantle's 'Article' >To: updates@globalserve.net >Recently, a team of film producers from Munich, Germany, has >contacted us. They became aware of the autopsy-video which is >distributed and promoted here in Germany by Mr. Hesemann. He (or >his company) claims that this video contains the complete, >original footage as it came from the reels without any cut. >They informed us that they are able to prove that these claims >are false and that the video they have bought shows severals >cuts. >Greetings >Joachim Koch As I understand it the video being sold in Germany purports to be the complete film as released by Santilli, without any sections cut out. Within the film itself, there are many cuts. What is the point of this post????? Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 29 Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:12:17 PST Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:57:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 19:31:01 -0500 > From: Peregrine Mendoza <101653.2205@compuserve.com> [Peter Brookesmith] > Subject: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > The Duke of Mendoza presents his compliments. > >From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] > >Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:42:33 PST > >To: updates@globalserve.net > >Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Brasilia's Letter [Hopkins' POV] > >The point is that Mr. Stewart was making an unusually big > >mountain out of an unusually small molehill, all in the > >interest of the venerable blood sport of Budd-bashing. > The POINT is that whatever the size of the issue, the fact > remains Budd Hopkins has done one thing and said another and the > two are in conflict. You don't (I repeat) have to be Budd-basher > to say that. I don't even know if this is one of Ed Stewart's > sports, and don't much care. I was rather under the impression > that he was more interested in the matter of duplicity, > regardless of source. Have you been mind-reading again? Peter, It amazes me that so little is being made of so much. But of course, when the target is Budd Hopkins, reason and proportion go out the window. On the other hand, it may be no more than a case of everybody's being bored enough to argue about nothing. Nope, this is no moral issue. Not even close. At most it's a question of a hungry, tired, naturally polite guy's making a spot judgment about which later, when not tired or hungry, he may entertain second thoughts. That's all, folks. Now can we get back to something important, like how many aliens can dance on the tip of some ufologist's pin head? Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 29 Re: Hindu Mythology & Ramblings From: Peregrine Mendoza <101653.2205@compuserve.com> [Peter Brookesmith] Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 15:41:52 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:14:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Hindu Mythology & Ramblings The Duke of Mendoza presents his compliments. > From: wlmss@pegasus.com.au [Lawrie Williams] > Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 21:23:30 +1000 (GMT+1000) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Hindu Mythology & Ramblings. Let us congratulate Mr Williams on his decision to abandon abduction research and wish him well in his new vocation as a profoundly original historian. >Gen 1:1 in the original Greek: "In the beginning was >the Nommos." I understand the boys over at the Beth Din are really excited at Mr Williams's discovery that Genesis was written in Greek & not Hebrew as they and countless generations of their co-religionists had previously believed. "Well, one lot of funny letters is pretty much the same as another," explained Rabbi Shmuel Goldfink to the "Jewish Chronicle" last night. "People could easily make a mistake like this. Some write to the left, some write to the right. It's confusing. It happens in Chinese restaurants all the time. They write up and down. You can get in a lot of trouble in those places. That's why I always go for the beef in ginger and spring onions, but hold the oyster sauce." Mr Williams's further discovery that scholars had persistently misunderstood the first words of the Book of Genesis also drew praise. "Tee hee," cried Rabbi Goldfink, wiping tears away from his bearded cheeks. "Always we were thinking in Genesis they said 'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth'. But if you hold the scrolls upside down, yes, you can see, it looks a little like the Greek characters, sure, if the light is a little dim, maybe. Though when I try to read it, it seems to say 'Beef in ginger and spring onions'. I figure from this maybe these Chinese are a Lost Tribe of Israel or something." But the revered and erudite rabbi did admit that the first words of the Gospel according to St John in the Christian canon are: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." In the original Greek the word translated as "Word" is not "Nommos" but "Logos". Transliterating the 1863 Clarendon edition of "Oi Kainoi Diathiki" (The New Testament): "En archsi sin s lsgos, kal s lsgos sin prrs trn Thern, kal Thess sin s lsgos." Rabbi Goldfink refused to comment on the implications of this but said he foresaw no revision of the kosher laws as a result of the confusion. "But this Mr Williams, his mother maybe should make him some nice chicken soup, listen to his troubles more." The word "Nommos" doesn't exist in ancient Greek. Nsmos (accent on the first syllable) means usage, custom, or law. Nomss (accent on the final syllable) means pastureland, or a district or province. In modern Greek the latter lives on as the word for the administrative area rough equivalent to a county. I myself do not know either the Mandarin or the Pekinese for "Beef in ginger & spring onions". Clearly this is an area Mr Williams should investigate with some urgency. Yours &c Pharisee D. Mazeltov Gravad Lax
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 29 Alan Watts' 'UFO Visitation' From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:04:45 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:17:57 -0500 Subject: Alan Watts' 'UFO Visitation' A book entitled "UFO Visitation" by British author Alan Watts has come into my possession (thru a trip to Barnes & Noble). The copyright date is 1996. Just so I can read it with a little perspective, are any of you on the list familiar with Mr. Watts, his background, and his reputation (if any) in the field? Thanx in advance, -Brian Cuthbertson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 29 BBC: Search For Atlantis Off Cornwall And In From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:21:28 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:21:28 -0500 Subject: BBC: Search For Atlantis Off Cornwall And In From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) To: updates@globalserve.net Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 02:37:04 +0200 Subject: BBC: Search For Atlantis Off Cornwall And In Bolivia Found at http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_43000/43172.stm The link is preceded by a star. ******* Monday, December 29, 1997 Published at 23:31 GMT UK Russians seek Atlantis off Cornwall Atlantis could also be Lyonesse For centuries explorers have searched for the remains of Atlantis - the fabled city under the sea. Now a team from Russia says it has identified it - 100 miles off Land's End, off the south-west coast of England. And this summer they intend to prove it. The team from the Moscow Institute of Meta-History is one of two new projects to start in the New Year. The other is a 30-strong British expedition to Bolivia to find Atlantis under a lake. The Russian search is based on a re-reading of classical Greek texts. They believe Atlantis is at Little Sole Bank, a hill on the Atlantic seabed. The site is at the edge of the Celtic Shelf which, before the Ice Age, was above sea level. The site description fits in with the Cornish myth of the land of Lyonesse - also known as the City of Lions. Lyonesse is said to have stood between Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly. (Picture text: Plato, the Greek philosopher who detailed Atlantis' location) Atlantis was first described by the Greek philosopher Plato in his work The Republic nearly 2,500 years ago. Plato said the city existed for more than 9,000 years with walls paved with silver and gold. In The Republic, Atlantis is destroyed by the gods when its people become wicked and decadent. But classical scholar Dr Peter Jones told the BBC: "Historically Atlantis is nonsense." He added that Plato was using a political allegory but also that he was very precise about the location of Atlantis. "It is an island in front of the straits of Gibraltar, and no such island exists," said Dr Jones. "This is pure invention. It's not history, it's not even myth, it is an allegory - a fabulous science-fiction superstate - a utopia, and ancient philosophers like Plato use allegories like this all the time." British explorer Colonel John Blashford-Snell, believes there is enough evidence in The Republic to justify a search for Atlantis in Bolivia. His team leaves in March. His team has used satellite mapping technologies to analyse the topography in Bolivia and has found striking resemblances between the area and the site Plato describes, he says. *(RealPlayer) Dr Peter Jones and Colonel Blashford-Snell debate the existence of the city of Atlantis on BBC Radio 4's Today programme. =A9 BBC --=====================_883473688==_ Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="Plato.jpg"; x-mac-type="4A504547"; x-mac-creator="4A565752" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Plato.jpg" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEAYABgAAD/2wBDAAcFBgYGBQcGBgYICAcJCxIMCwoKCxcQEQ0SGxccHBoX GhkdISokHR8oIBkaJTIlKCwtLzAvHSM0ODQuNyouLy7/2wBDAQgICAsKCxYMDBYuHhoeLi4uLi4u Li4uLi4uLi4uLi4uLi4uLi4uLi4uLi4uLi4uLi4uLi4uLi4uLi4uLi4uLi7/wAARCADLAJYDASIA AhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQA AAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1FhByJxFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkKFhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3 ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZWmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWGh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWm 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 30 Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso From: Mike Smith <mickey@anix340.dev.anix.co.uk> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:58:17 +0000 (GMT) Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:54:54 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso Hi All, I don't know whether I'm considered to be part of the fringe crowd. I personally have never considered myself such. I'm only a skeptical believer in the ETH so how I can be a fringe person I don't know. But I have, on occaison, found myself allied with both Henny and Jean.(FTL in particular) Whilst we definitely don't subscribe to all the same views, I respect their rights to have an opinion in the same way that I repect Mr Stewarts. If I disagree then I would attempt to form a polite and non- threatening response. If, as in the case of Henny a mistake has been made, then the following should be considered: 1. His initial post was based upon another previously un-criticised post.(not his own) 2. Once this had been shown to be in Error he not only disavowed his previous statement, he apologised for it. Now he faces a constant stream of abuse, which is neither called for nor useful to the thread. The following is included un-snipped as Ed seems to be sensitive about that. On Fri, 26 Dec 1997, Ed Stewart wrote: > Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 00:13:58 -0800 > From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > > Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 20:07:58 +0100 (MET) > > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > > From: Jean van Gemert <jeanvg@dds.nl> > > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'The X-Factor' (issue 25) - Question to Corso > Jean van Gemert makes an impromptu appearance after witnessing > his compatriot Henny exposed as a liar on this mailing list. > I didn't realize I was so popular with the fringe crowd to have > my posts collected and quotes extracted in an irrelevant attempt > at distraction from the real issues. I guess in a way I should be > honored that you are paying such close attention to my choice of > words, but may I suggest you start paying closer attention to the > real issues at hand instead of exhibiting your frustration > every time I bring attention to one of your friends and > associates. May I suggest to you that if you are appalled at my > lack of civility in this mailing list directed at those elements > that you support, that you are in dire need to re-evaluate your > personal values and priorities. He was not the only one that was appalled. As I've said before I don't consider myself an associate. But as I'm the fellow that caused the initial controversy over the FTL thead, I do feel responsible/involved in some way. If you'd like you can attack me and my beliefs. Having a go at someone will always be counter productive. You should make your points in a calm and rational way. In the FTL debate I attempted to be informative and rational, I would hope that my posts were polite. If they weren't then I hereby apologise to all on the list. > [Massive SNIP of examples of alleged incivility researched by > Jean van Gemert] Ahem! What was that about snipping. (Hopefully sarcasm is still not considered to be too impolite) > > My my, Ed. Having trouble venting your anger in a decent and > > normal manner? Your posts kindly suggest you're not even ca- > > pable of doing so. One thing's obvious, which is that you're > > not exactly the textbook case of logic and rationality you > > make yourself out to be. Sorry if that upsets you. > Not at all, no trouble at all. I am so happy you have decided to > join us. I have been waiting since late October for you to answer > some questions that I posed to you after you postured yourself as > the ideal of logic, rationality, and state-of-art center of > knowledge regarding the discussions on FTL. It is my belief that this thread was terminated by Errol. Perhaps Errol can confirm this? If you want to pose some questions on physics and FTL perhaps you could direct these to me privately. (Not that I'm a font of all knowledge, I just like the debate) > I refer you to: > http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1997/oct/m28-018.shtml > Everyone is still waiting on you to back-up your arguments. After > that post of mine listed above you disappeared without responding > to the many questions I posed regarding not only your position, > but also Henny's who also chose to disappear to wherever you guys > hide out when you are not on this list. Was it my lack of > civility that offended you? Or the fact that you got caught > posturing through your hat with clumsy attempts of intellectual > bullyism that caused you to abruptly disappear? Whilst not subscribing to all of Jeans views, we disagree over Tachyons, the theory predicts their existence in the same way the the existence of anti-matter was predicted. There is at present no experimental evidence to back this up. That however does not mean that such exotic particles do not exist. In fact the balance of opinion is that they do. Work is going on that may eventually lead to some sort of proof. Should really supply a URL. (But what the hell, that's what Internet search Engines are for). I don't think that tachyons will prove to be that useful though. Still, unlike some I'm prepared to shown the error of my ways. As too intellectual bullying. A case of the Pot calling the Kettle black, perhaps ? > > Try reading some more of Jerry Clark's posts and you *might > > just* learn something in terms of civility. > I am very familiar with Jerome Clark's posts since his very first > mail bag appearance in FLYING SAUCER REVIEW back in 1961, 36 > years ago, before he was old enough to be out during curfew > hours. Besides Jerome Clark himself, I am probably one of the > very few people interested in this subject that could publish a > complete as possible Jerome Clark bibliography. I thing I am not > exaggerating when I say that I have seen every one of Jerome's > public faces over the last 36 years. Thank you for the tip, but > please spare me! > BTW, Jerome Clark has been published 31 times in FSR, three > co-authored with Lucius Farish and twice co-authored with Loren > Coleman. Anyone interested in a complete bibliographical index to > FLYING SAUCER REVIEW, sorted 3 separate ways by author, article > title, and volume number contact either FUFOR or Arcturus Books, > over 600 pages of source information - a tool designed for > serious researchers only, the index contains no claims, no sex, > no sensationalism, in other words boring yet essential. > (Shameless self-serving plug by the compiler) Unfortunatly Jean you're on you own here I have no Idea what or who either of you are talking about. > May Santa have brought you and your ilk what you deserve. Not very nice Mister Stewart, I personally hope you had a nice Christmas, Hanukah (??? Don't know the spelling. Hopefully any Jewish people will be tolerant of any mis-spelling ???) and I cordially wish you a happy new year. I Hope 1998 will be a more tolerant and understanding year for all of us. > Ed Stewart Regards to the list, Mike A TOLERANT Skeptic.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 30 Re: BBC: Search For Atlantis Off Cornwall And In From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:00:27 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:59:55 -0500 Subject: Re: BBC: Search For Atlantis Off Cornwall And In > From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 02:37:04 +0200 > Subject: BBC: Search For Atlantis Off Cornwall And In Bolivia > Found at > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_43000/43172.stm > The link is preceded by a star. > ******* > Monday, December 29, 1997 Published at 23:31 GMT > UK > Russians seek Atlantis off Cornwall > But classical scholar Dr Peter Jones told the BBC: "Historically > Atlantis is nonsense." > He added that Plato was using a political allegory but also that he was > very precise about the location of Atlantis. Which is in itself rather odd... > "It is an island in front of the straits of Gibraltar, and no such > island exists," said Dr Jones. > "This is pure invention. It's not history, it's not even myth, it is an > allegory - a fabulous science-fiction superstate - a utopia, and > ancient philosophers like Plato use allegories like this all the time." > +-+-+-+ +-+-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Honored list... ...Granted, that allegory may have been used all the time -- but, at the same time, weren't they (the ancients) also careful to admit the allegory to preclude any confusion? Plato's cave allegory was identified as allegory, and we understand it to be allegory (No?) -- but where is a similar admission in the Atlantis account? My study of the uses of allegory is limited, I certainly admit <g>, but can someone confirm or deny my supposition? Sitchin and Velikovsky seem firm in their shared assertion, I understand, that these people wanted passionately to be understood, and would be clear if they were using some kind of literary devise. Not so? Lehmberg@snowhill.com Free John Ford! -- Explore the Alien View? http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/ "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 30 Re: Back Stabbing From: wlmss@pegasus.com.au [Lawrie Williams] Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:02:18 +1000 (GMT+1000) Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:04:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Back Stabbing > From: Ufojoe1 <Ufojoe1@aol.com> [Joe Murgia] > Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:45:14 EST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Back Stabbing Joe said: > ...What a great power we would be if we would all just concentrate > on getting to the truth and forcing our government to come clean. > Maybe that's too much to ask for. Is it? On the internet two ways to get to this mythical truth have evolved on the paranormal newsgroups and mailing lists. Some groups put being Nice very high on their policy priorities. Other groups are much more concerned with getting to the Truth. 1 The Nice groups tend to simply exclude people who are not Nice according to standards set by the moderator and the more frequent posters. Often these groups have a religious foundation, however covert. There is often a lot of talk of Love and Unity. A wide range of ideas are offered and these are rarely contested. It is considered bad form to take fellow list members to task for sloppy thinking, posting outdated files or poor presentation. 2 The Truth groups tend to howl down people who do stupid things to the Truth. These groups have a greater respect for list members' right to hold dissident opinions. While the ideas offered are more limited the information tends to be of better quality. There is without a doubt a see-saw effect here and list members need to be aware of it. If Niceness is favoured, Truth is bound to suffer. I am sure other members of this list have tried a variety of lists and discovered that this is so. That is why we are here. May the bickering continue. It is a guarantee of quality. Lawrie Williams______________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 30 The Importance of UpDates - a Request From: SGB List 2 <SGBList2@aol.com> [Stephen G. Bassett] Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:35:08 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:10:38 -0500 Subject: The Importance of UpDates - a Request To the Members of UpDates This mailing list is one of, if not the best, internet forums available. There are major pending political developments which have the potential to lead to disclosure regarding the issue this list is dedicated to and which will unfold in the next 3 months. This is not the time for people to be leaving. Rather it is time for list members to be recruiting the highest quality participants from within and without the field of extraterrestrial phenomena research. This list is of critical importance to my work and others who are using it as a source for current information and analysis. The broader the commentary, the greater the value. I strongly encourage you to view this list, not as a matter of personal like and dislike, but as a major resource which has the potential to affect history. Every researcher in the country should be subscribing. Events are going to be moving so quickly in due course, that a national venue for rapid response and quick exhchange will be essential. The UFO research community stands on the two yard line after a 50-year march up a very muddy field. It's time to bunch together and finish the job. Steve Bassett Paradigm Research Group ParadigmRG@aol.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 30 Re: 'Civil and Uncivil Wars' From: SGB List 2 <SGBList2@aol.com> [Stephen G. Bassett] Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:45:13 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:10:47 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Civil and Uncivil Wars' > From: clark@mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark] > Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:05:58 PST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: civil and uncivil wars > Hi, everybody, > Those of you following recent discussions on the list > regard civility in ufological debate may find the following > of interest. It's an editorial I wrote, titled "Civil and Uncivil > Wars," in the May/June 1992 issue of IUR: I can only speculate as to whether Jerome knew in 1992 that 5 years later, the importance of the views expressed in this exceptional editorial would be magnified ten fold. Steve Bassett Paradigm Research Group
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 30 Re: Alan Watts' 'UFO Visitation' From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:59:36 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:11:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Alan Watts' 'UFO Visitation' >Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:04:45 -0600 (CST) >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Alan Watts >A book entitled "UFO Visitation" by British author >Alan Watts has come into my possession (thru a trip >to Barnes & Noble). The copyright date is 1996. >Just so I can read it with a little perspective, >are any of you on the list familiar with Mr. Watts, >his background, and his reputation (if any) in the >field? >Thanx in advance, >-Brian Cuthbertson Brian, Back in the late 60s I ran into Alan Watts, a sort of hippie guru and friend of Tim Leary. I don't think he was British, though. The Alan Watts I knew wrote a bunch of books on mysticism and zen. Probably not the same guy. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 30 Re: BBC: Search For Atlantis Off Cornwall And In From: "George Fergus" <fergus@mail.ccrl.mot.com> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:41:06 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:13:43 -0500 Subject: Re: BBC: Search For Atlantis Off Cornwall And In > From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) > To: updates@globalserve.net > Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 02:37:04 +0200 > Subject: BBC: Search For Atlantis Off Cornwall And In Bolivia Atlantis is a very interesting topic. Personally, I think the legend has a factual basis (in the destruction of Thera), but that Plato could not have gotten all the details from anywhere but his own imagination. But what does Atlantis have to do with UFOs? -George Fergus
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 30 Re: Hindu Mythology & Ramblings From: "WHITE" <mjawhite@digitaldune.net> [John White] Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:30:30 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:22:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Hindu Mythology & Ramblings Greetings and cheer to all, and to Mastemah (aka "The Duke") who plots: >Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 15:41:52 -0500 >From: Peregrine Mendoza <101653.2205@compuserve.com> [Peter Brookesmith] >Subject: Re: Hindu Mythology & Ramblings >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >The Duke of Mendoza presents his compliments. >> From: wlmss@pegasus.com.au [Lawrie Williams] >> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 21:23:30 +1000 (GMT+1000) >> To: updates@globalserve.net >> Subject: Hindu Mythology & Ramblings. >Let us congratulate Mr Williams on his decision to abandon >abduction research and wish him well in his new vocation as a >profoundly original historian. >>Gen 1:1 in the original Greek: "In the beginning was >>the Nommos." >I understand the boys over at the Beth Din are really excited at >Mr Williams's discovery that Genesis was written in Greek & not >Hebrew as they and countless generations of their co-religionists >had previously believed. <<Snip the delightful tale of Rabbi Goldfink>> Duke: One of the mother lodes of abduction research, if one suspends questioning an epistemology which brooks no robust dialectic, is that body of sacred writings known as the Torah/Dead Sea Scrolls/Old Testament. Far from going afield, a foray by Williams into that body of literature can bring forth an interesting perspective on abductions. (Yes, I confess to attempting a topical shift.) 1. The Sinai dilemma posed in Exodus and Deuteronomy..... Moses the Mountaineer goes up the mountain six or seven times, but only comes down twice. Abduction? 2. The tale of Jacob the Wrestler who encountered a divine being at Penuel who dislocated his hip and then gave Jacob the name "Israel" for having prevailed over god and "human." Attemped abduction? Or fanciful account of having slipped and injured his hip? 3. The Book of Enoch (Qumran texts) which regales us with its tales of Giants who were the offspring of human females and a bunch of evil beings, led by Shemihaza, who were holy terrors when it came to the locals......punished by God with a flood despite Enoch's intercession on their behalf. Abductees for sexual experiments and production of alien spawn? This material is readily available; not a lot of copyright problems; and whether its linguistic "origin" is Hebrew, Rabbinical Hebrew, Aramaic (Hebrew variant?), Ethiopic, Greek, Akkadian, Sumerian, (Basque??), etc., is of little moment to the tale told, unless one is attempting a chronology for source, but even that purpose is not without some difficulty like that found in trying to chronicle Moses the Mountaineer's journeys up and down the mount. Would you nip such nascent research in its bud by attempting to waylay it by means of a mere scrivener's strike, (although I think you're right to strike Greek for Hebrew), inasmuch as the genesis tale has many roots? Further, lest Mastemah dissuade the holiday challenged, high caliber, intellectually invigorating research can be done by examining ancient textual materials. For example, Julian Jaynes in "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" uses ancient writings to great effect in developing an interesting theme that psychotic or schizoeffective disorders giving rise to auditory and visual hallucinations, not unlike those described as "fact" in the "ancient writings," (and, I might add, not unlike _some_ descriptions of _some_ abductions I have read) were a common state of man's "bicameral mind" ca., 5,000 b.c., ("the two hemispheres can function so as to seem like two independent persons, which in the bicameral period were, I suggest, the individual and his god." pg 117, Jaynes), and that those "ancient writings" accurately reflect a "bicameral mind," which, when encountered today, we cure with Thorazine. Hmmm? That is, when we start hearing voices and seeing visions and encountering terrifying "night visitors" who take us away and stick implements in our nether regions or foist alien spawn upon us, the current response is to nuke us with meds. Ancient writings provide ample opportunity to test abduction theories in much the same way as Jaynes tested his clinical theories of the genesis of psychotic behavior he observed in certain patients in mental health wards. So, what do you say....shall we give it a go? Hoping the holiday season finds you merry! John White mjawhite@digitaldune.net
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 30 Re: Alan Watts' 'UFO Visitation' From: "Philippe Piet van Putten" <abp1@uol.com.br> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:06:20 -0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:41:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Alan Watts' 'UFO Visitation' -----Mensagem original----- De: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Para: updates@globalserve.net <updates@globalserve.net> Data: Ter=E7a-feira, 30 de Dezembro de 1997 21:17 Assunto: UFO UpDate: Re: Alan Watts' 'UFO Visitation' >Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:59:36 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Alan Watts' 'UFO Visitation' >>Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:04:45 -0600 (CST) >>From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Alan Watts >>A book entitled "UFO Visitation" by British author >>Alan Watts has come into my possession (thru a trip >>to Barnes & Noble). The copyright date is 1996. >>Just so I can read it with a little perspective, >>are any of you on the list familiar with Mr. Watts, >>his background, and his reputation (if any) in the >>field? >>Thanx in advance, >>-Brian Cuthbertson >Brian, >Back in the late 60s I ran into Alan Watts, a sort of >hippie guru and friend of Tim Leary. I don't think he >was British, though. The Alan Watts I knew wrote a bunch >of books on mysticism and zen. >Probably not the same guy. >Bob Dear colleagues and friends, You're definetely not talking about the same person. The mystic Allan Watts is deceased now, but there is another man, with the same name, who's involved in UFO research. Best regards, Philippe Piet van Putten Director - The Brazilian Academy of Parasciences (ABP) National Director - Picard UFO Research International (PUFORI) Editor - Fenomenos Aeroespaciais (Aerospatial Phenomena) E-mail: abp1@uol.com.br
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 30 Re: The Importance of UpDates - a Request From: RGates8254 <RGates8254@aol.com> [Robert Gates] Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:11:49 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:55:11 -0500 Subject: Re: The Importance of UpDates - a Request > From: SGB List 2 <SGBList2@aol.com> [Stephen G. Bassett] > Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:35:08 EST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: The Importance of Updates - a Request > To the Members of UpDates > This mailing list is one of, if not the best, internet forums > available. > There are major pending political developments which have the > potential to lead to disclosure regarding the issue this list is > dedicated to and which will unfold in the next 3 months I totally agree that this mailing list is THE BEST internet forum available. Up and until the Col's death Skywatch used to be a close second. HOWEVER as to the "major pending political developments..." I would suggest that we take a wait and see approach. In the early days of 96 according to all the top-level-never-wrong intelligence-community sources both political partys were going to make some kind of big disclosure BEFORE THE ELECTION. Never happened. The Mars rock announcement of August 1996 was alleged to be "the big precursor event to the big ET reality announcement that fall. Never Happened. Same announcement to happen JUST AFTER the election. Never Happened. In December of 96 and January of 1997 we were being told tales of Yellowbook/10,000 year history of ET on earth/Christ is an ET/mass landings to happen on April 24th 1997. Never Happened. Then we had Lee Shargel and his "insider space scientists" at "Alice Springs tracking station" who allegedly was the source for the Jan 24th 1997 ET radio waves were going to bathe the earth which would start a new day for humanity. Never Happened. So if some political development does happen, thats fine. If not its another broken turd on the pile of things that NEVER HAPPENED. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 30 UFO Award From: Joaquim Fernandes <j.fernan@esoterica.pt> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:37:47 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:25:03 -0500 Subject: UFO Award Dear fellows and members, I am glad to announce that the prize 'Cuadernos de Ufologia', related to the 1997 edition, was granted to the Portuguese journal 'Anomalia', edited by the former CNIFO (National Research Committee on UFO Phenomena), founded in Portugal in 1984 and now refunded, as a special branch, in the SPEC, a national research association of scholars and academic investigators, within the major Portuguese universities, devoted to the serious study of a large scope of anomalous and non-ordinary phenomena which was founded in March 1997. The Board of the Anomaly Foundation mentioned by unanimity that "the Anomalia journal, edited by CNIFO, Portugal, has got all the credits by spreading the rational, objective and critical study of the "non identified phenomena" problem and encourage the editor, Dr. Joaquim Fernandes and the editorial team, to maintain the level of the previous issues of the journal". The importance of this subject is that for the first time a Spanish award, promoted by the newly Foundation Anomalia, congregating the more active groups and individuals working in Spanis UFO field (the same name of the Portuguese journal...) is granted to a foreigner specialized periodical, the Portuguese ANOMALIA journal, which was first edited in 1993, as a 200 pages book research annual review. Myself as current editor of the Anomalia and our editorial board are happy to see this international recognition awarding a original and professional work, always considering the scientific background and the methodological criteria of such effort. We only regret that a great majority of the UFO community, who cannot read the Portuguese language, don't have a contact our little contribution to the sincere quest of such anomalous phenomena. We are also very grateful to our Spanish collegues for the important distintion. Thank you and a good '98 to all the members of this list. Joaquim Fernandes University Fernando Pessoa, Porto, Portugal SPEC Board and "Anomalia" Editor
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 30 ACC Responds To Reports Of SAIC Purchasing Bell From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 03:10:03 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:48:32 -0500 Subject: ACC Responds To Reports Of SAIC Purchasing Bell Just published on the site of "Sightings On Radio". URL: http://www.sightings.com/ufo/accsaic.htm ******* SIGHTINGS ACC Responds To Reports Of SAIC Purchasing Bell Labs Note: I received the following email from a listener who requested I pass it along to Ed Wang, which I did. I also sent it to ACC for comment and received the following quick reply containing some new and interesting data: Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:50:39 -0600 To: eotl@west.net Subject: Please Forward To Ed Wang Mr. Wang, I saw something interesting in the trade papers yesterday that might relate to your ACC story on the Sightings website. The news report stated that Bell Labs was being absorbed or bought by SAIC (you probably realize that SAIC owns Internic, and has more ex-spooks on its board that the CIA). I thought it might be interesting that since ACC is a spinoff of Bell Labs, and if Bell Labs still has any control over ACC, that this purchase by SAIC might be an end run around ACC's efforts. For what it's worth. Thanks, (name on file) (The following most interesting response arrived from ACC on 12-30-97) Dear Mr. Rense: American Computer Company is not a spin off of Bell Labs. It was, at one time, a Bell Labs limited partnership, but that Bell Labs, except through American Computer, no longer exists and is not subject to any contractual or legal obligations or restrictions which may apply to today's Bell Labs or AT&T. SAIC is reportedly acquiring the "Assets" of today's Bell Labs, and SAIC is supposedly purchasing the AT&T Labs corporate entity from AT&T to hold it. SAIC does not own "the Internic", they reportedly own "Network Solutions Group" which operates the Internic under a grant from the National Science Foundation and whose charter expires at the end of 1978 at which time ANY ONE is entitled to be appointed the new operator of the Internic who wins "THE BID". We imagine there is going to be quite a legal battle over that one. Again, this may sound like legal banter to the layman. Accordingly, we believe this move is just a consolidation by AT&T under the pressure brought to bear upon them by one Jack Shulman, who publically, privately and in court has strongly suggested they, AT&T, are operating a defacto "Monopoly" over the Internet. It may also be a technique to hide the contract that created "Computation, Tabulation and Recording, Inc." in upstate New York, in the first decade of our Century, a hidden subsidiary of the Bell System, which was later renamed "International Business Machines Corporation". This is hidden within the realm of Bell Labs assets - perhaps its most valuable one - and again, pressure brought to bear upon AT&T by Jack may be forcing their hand, though don't go expecting them to admit it. Most people are unaware that IBM, Digital Equipment Corporation, Netscape, Motorola Corporation, Sun Microsystems, @Home, @Work, Apple Computer and a whole lot of other businesses, are all among the many exterior hidden corporate interests, allegedly, of AT&T (and were of the original Bell System) and the RBOCs. By controlling the boards and officers of businesses and maintaining the "appearances of autonomy" - some companies with power the likes of AT&T are very capable of defeating the indexes of "Corporate Shareholder's Agreements" and the rules of the Exchange regarding voting rights. The lines between these businesses are very well hidden and almost impossible to prove in court as they go outside of the jurisdiction of the Court: namely - off shore. AT&T is still the world's largest company, more powerful and healthier today than GM and GE combined - yet you wouldn't know it from reading their annual report. Even though AT&T and the "RBOCs" are not part of the same business today, it is sufficient to suggest that they may be aiming at regrouping themselves so that they eventually are. And, in the meantime, they have had ample opportunity to secure a substantial position in Cable TV, Credit, Banking and International Communications. The "long distance" part of AT&T we see in this country, is really only part of the picture. The Court and the Justice Department really failed to break them up, just doesn't know it yet and Judge Greene and his associates at the Department are going to be long gone, and Congress quite of a different mind, when they do re-Unify AT&T. In fact, because they still value Jack Shulman's opinion more than the public realizes: he suggested they use the name "UNIFI Corp" (pronounced like "Unify") as the new business name. Bear in mind, Jack doesn't hate AT&T, he just wants the secrets about Roswell/Corona exposed, and AT&T to provide much better service for a much lower cost, and have some serious competition. His interests are, as you may have noticed, in seeing "We the People" served better - for he believes that humanity is already facing the greatest threat to its own survival: the need to grow beyond Planet Earth - and that a test of our resolve and ability is upon us - one which humankind could live or die as a result of. That test has very little room in it for greedy, communications barons who charge hundreds and thousands of dollars per month per line for wired communicating systems when they could be as inexpensive as $20-40 per month per user, instead. Until such a time as AT&T makes a financial investment in American Computer Company, it will have no say in our operations, every one needn't worry. -- ACC UFO Newswatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 30 Re: Alan Watts' 'UFO Visitation' From: "Keith Woodard" <qwoodard@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:42:59 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:54:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Alan Watts' 'UFO Visitation' > From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com> > Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:59:36 -0500 > Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:11:45 -0500 > Subject: Re: Alan Watts' 'UFO Visitation' > Back in the late 60s I ran into Alan Watts, a sort > of hippie guru and friend of Tim Leary. I don't think > he was British, though. The Alan Watts I knew wrote a > bunch of books on mysticism and Zen. > Probably not the same guy. Definitely not the same guy, Bob. The Watts you knew was born in 1915 in England, moved to America in the thirties, and died in Mill Valley in 1973. He was probably the most important popularizer of Zen the West has seen. Some of his pals who are still kicking include Gary Snyder, Huston Smith, and Robert Anton Wilson. Kind regards, Keith
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 31 USAF, UFOs And The Movie/TV Industry From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 07:33:32 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:18:07 -0500 Subject: USAF, UFOs And The Movie/TV Industry Found at Ogden Publishing Corporation's StandardNET. URL: http://www.standard.net/cgi-win/table.exe?archive+18tv1.htm ******* TV--Aliens at Hill? Only in "Visitor' September 18, 1997 By NANCY VAN VALKENBURG Standard-Examiner staff Remember: It's just fiction. The tip-off that the new Fox series "The Visitor" (debuting 7p.m. Friday on KSTU Channel 13) is pure fabrication is not that John Corbett plays an alien abductee who hasn't aged a day since he was kidnapped half a century ago. The evidence that the show is pure fiction is not that Corbett supposedly pilots a stolen saucer back to earth, or even that he crash lands in rural Summit County, of all places. No, the absolute proof that the story is fictional comes from a single locator at the bottom of the screen during a scene depicting military personnel. The given location: Hill Air Force Base. Bruce Collins, deputy director of public affairs at Hill, said he has no recollection of any alien spacecraft landing in Utah, and would certainly remember if a well-known actor popped the hatch and climbed out. Then he let out a hardy laugh. "The Air Force did a study, Project Bluebook, which indicated there was no reason to pursue a study of UFOs," Collins explained. Furthermore, producers for "The Visitor" did not even ask permission to use the name of Hill Air Force Base. "We have cooperated with requests from the film and television industries after reviewing scripts for accuracy, but I'm fairly certain any stories featuring UFOs would not meet our accuracy requirements." Chuck Davis, Air Force chief of television and movie liaison, confirmed Collins' hunch. "We have not received any request from Fox TV concerning any military facilities," he said, from his office in California. Collins said the Air Force is usually happy to cooperate with television and film projects that depict the services accurately, as did this summer's "Air Force One." Producers are charged for use of equipment and technical advisers. The military does not rent out uniforms, but plenty of commercial costume companies do. Then again, if "The Visitor" producers want to build their own military set and print on the screen that it's Hill Air Force Base, there's nothing anyone can do to stop them. "We do have freedom of speech in this country, and producers are free to build any sets they like, or even use computer technology to replicate a setting. These days, you can do anything with a computer. Like put actors in places they never were or edit public figures into fictional stories. Examples include this summer's "Contact," which included carefully edited footage of President Bill Clinton that seemed to make him integral to the plot, and -- from a few years back -- "Forrest Gump," which featured actor Tom Hanks appearing in various historical footage. Collins said he does get irritated by some media depictions of the military. "There are good, conscientious people in the military, and they sacrifice a great deal in their day to day jobs to do things for the American people. We're not going to pretend we enjoy being portrayed inaccurately." But he will try to keep a sense of humor if he gets calls from worried Fox viewers after Friday's series debut. "Our office will probably get some calls on this," he said, with a chuckle. "It wouldn't be the first time we got calls about something wild that people saw on TV." A cover up of the non-military variety For news people, the executives at KTVX Channel 4 are awfully tight-lipped. Last week, Channel 4 announced the removal of its long-time news director, John Edwards, after 15 years of service. Edwards was released from his post the same day the ABC affiliate hired Con Psarras, former news director at rival KUTV Channel 2. Psarras' new title is managing editor, but he'll also serve as interim news director while a permanent replacement for Edwards is sought, according to a statement released by Channel 4. The unsigned statement acknowledged Edwards had "been one of those responsible for guiding and directing the Channel 4 news team to its many successes." Psarras and Channel 4 general manager Peter Mathes did not return calls placed by this reporter, and Edwards declined to comment when reached at home by an Associated Press reporter. If other people in Utah news responded with such unified silence, Channel 4's newscasts would be pretty darn short. Back to network debuts Tonight, ABC premieres two of its most controversial shows. "Nothing Sacred" (7 p.m. on KTVX Channel 4), has inspired organized protest by various Catholic groups that object to the less-than-heavenly portrayal of the priests depicted. And "Cracker" (8 p.m., KTVX Channel 4), has drawn comment for a less philosophical reason: Most people don't believe Robert Pastorelli can match the acting talents of Robbie Coltrane, star of the show's British version. CBS season debuts on KSL Channel 5 Friday will be "Family Matters" (7 p.m.) and "Step by Step" (8:30 p.m.), both of which formerly aired on ABC. CBS series premieres will be "Meego" (7:30 p.m.), a comedy about a space alien (Bronson Pinchot) and the earth kids he agrees to babysit (including Jonathan Lipnicki). "The Gregory Hines Show" (8 p.m.), already seen in a Monday preview, caps the kids' lineup. Following "The Visitor" on Fox, "Millennium" makes its season debut. On Saturday, "The Practice" makes its season debut on ABC, and the new season of "Mad TV" (10 p.m., KSTU Channel 13) begins on Fox. Fans of singer Brandy may want to switch over to Disney. Saturday at 8 and 10:30 p.m., the cable channel will premiere "Ray J in Concert with Brandy." Singer Ray J is the up-and-coming brother of superstar Brandy. For people whose cable packages do not include Disney, tune in anyway. It's a Disney free preview weekend. =A9 Ogden Publishing Corporation
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 31 Donaldson Predicts Contact From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:13:11 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:22:01 -0500 Subject: Donaldson Predicts Contact Its the damndest thing... Here I am reading Nexxus and UFO UpDates stuff from their mail lists when my attention is dragged back to the wrap-up of the Nightline light entertainment show on New Years Predictions. Sam Donaldson is making the closing remark when his words start to break into my awareness. He is saying something to the effect that "it may be the damndest thing but I expect the big array in New Mexico will detect aliens this year and I don't mean from across the border but signals from outer space." Life really is weirder than we can ever imagine it to be... Bye... Ted..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 31 Re: Hindu Mythology & ETH, Sun-discs, etc. From: wlmss@pegasus.com.au [Lawrie Williams] Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:14:29 +1000 (GMT+1000) Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:02:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Hindu Mythology & ETH, Sun-discs, etc. >From: "Tom Burnett" <burnettc@gte.net> >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Hindu Mythology & ETH, Sun-discs, etc. >Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:18:44 -1000 >>From: wlmss@pegasus.com.au [Lawrie Williams] >>Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 21:23:30 +1000 (GMT+1000) >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Hindu Mythology & Ramblings. >>The world was remade c. 4000 bc by a close encounter with a mass >>of cometary debris that gassed the world with CO and generated >>such massive oceanic tidal surges that essentially civilization >>was sent back to scratch.... >No, It wasn't. If we use no other records but the written >records, Sumerian life was well established in large cities >(Eridu, Ur, Uruk, Nippur, Kish and Lagash) by 4,000BC. Sailboats, >wheeled vehicles, potter's wheels and kilns were in general use. >Copper was smelted and tempered from c 4,000BC. "This world-order [the same for all] did none of gods or men make, but it always was and is and shall be: an ever- lasting fire, kindling in measures and going out in measures." Herakleitos of Ephesus, fr. 30 8 Core issue - the UFO phenomenon may be related to 8 not-quite-vanished civilizations driven underground, 8 skywards or into other dimensions by the danger of 8 ironstone, gas, ice and CO from the sky. If the last 8 option was developed, that could help account for 8 weird things like invisibility, ley lines &tc. There are at least two vectors, one is Scorpio - (the sting is in the tail) and the archer (nearby) which in other words says he fires arrows at the Earth, like the mythical arrow of Acestes that went so fast it caught fire. The other is Sirius, the vector of a positive flurry of comets and intrasolar flotsam and jetsam including what appeared to be coal, organic life forms, broken pottery, blood and mud. Nobody has ever worked out how these unidentified falling objects came about. One thing is for sure, mainstream science not only has not got the answers but it has not had a fair look at the data. Written records exist of the total destruction of old Sumeria - it is vividly described in "The Epic of Gilgamesh" (XI), which tells of Addad the black storm cloud, of the rain of blight and how "the wide Earth shattered like a pot!", then the incredible wind from the south that fetched up the sea and submerged the land for a week, and the ultimate scene - "....all of mankind had returned to clay The landscape was as level as a flat roof" >Other contemporaneous evidence shows Neolithic traits and >population centers developing without interruption in North, >Central and South America, SE Europe and the middle east from c >10,000BC and for South and East Asia, Western Europe and >sub-Saharan Africa from c 6,000BC. No. The Earth has been going through semi-periodic bouts of catastrophes for tens of thousands of years. This is in our history (see below) and it is backed up by the evidence of extreme fluctuations in gas and dust in ancient Greenland ice. What is taught in schools and colleges is directly contradicted by the literature in the same libraries. Accounts of terrifying bombardment from the skies and massive flooding on the Earth are to be found from almost everywhere. Graham Hancock's "Finger- prints of the Gods" is a good source for those interested, although I've collected many other accounts. One telling body of evidence is in the distribution of *pykkos* (nickel-iron meteorites) - it is only found in the uppermost layers. For millions of years beforehand lumps of nickel-iron never fell from the sky. [ See meteors: Britannica - the book ] Our kind of civilization built as it was on collected fallen iron might not have happened otherwise. Perhaps the Egyptians put it best of all when they spoke to Solon, who relayed the account to Plato: "You are all young in your minds which hold no store of old belief based on long tradition, no knowledge hoary with age. The reason is this. There have been, and will be hereafter, many and divers destructions of mankind, the greatest by fire and water, though other lesser ones are due to countless other causes.......... the truth behind it is a deviation of the bodies that revolve in heaven round the earth and a destruction, occurring at long intervals, of things on earth by a great conflagration...... Any great or noble achievement or otherwise exceptional event that has come to pass, either in your parts or here or in any place of which we have tidings, has been written down for ages past in records that are preserved in our temples; whereas with you and other peoples again and again life has only lately been enriched....when once more, after the usual period of years, the torrents from heaven sweep down like a pestilence, leaving only the rude and unlettered among you. And so you start again like children, knowing nothing of what existed in ancient times here or in your own country.....your people remember only one deluge, though there were many earlier....." In Plato's "Timaeus" we also read of the Earth: "...overtaken by a tempest of winds....alien fire from without, and with a solid lump of earth.........the immense flood which foamed in and streamed out...." This seems like an unambiguous description of a near miss by a comet. Here is another perspective: "Tradition says the world was destroyed on the seventeenth of the month Daesius (May) when the sun rose in conjunction with the star Sirius...... " ..... the sculptured stones of Scotland, and in especial the Golspie Stone, near Inverness, have preserved the memory of that period by the juxtaposition of the signs of the Zodiac, which give the approximate date, a date I estimate to have been about 156O B.C., a date much later than Plato's Atlantis is usually accredited with. Be that as it may, we find classic writers like Tatian, Clement, and Eusebius all agreed that the Phaeton "escapade" was identical with the Deucalion Flood in Hellas, as that was coincident with the Flood of Noah, and these writers linked the Deucalion Flood with the Dog-star Sirius, from whose direction the twin comets emanated..... "...The event was both violent and sudden. It struck the highest mountains and the lowest valleys, bombarded the resisting heights from the directon of the north and north-east, rained a storm of the most devastating rocks and stones, and much of it must have fallen in a state of liquid fire...." [Comyns Beumont "The Mysterious Comet" Rider & Co London 1932] >Oh...Cometary debris gassed the world with carbon monoxide? >carbon monoxide is a byproduct of rapid oxidation (combustion). >One of the requirements is a combustible material (fuel). >Another is oxygen. The CO is generated as the burning material is >incompletely consumed in an oxygen environment. It could equally be produced inside the "thermos flask" conditons of a comet. One reaction comes to mind right away could be hot carbon and iron oxide reacting, the C reducing the ferrous or ferric oxides (like they were fuel) to iron and carrying away CO and some CO2. That is how furnaces work on Earth too. >I am not saying that CO molecules cannot be detected in the >tails of comets. CO and CO2, water and cyanide and rotten egg gas, as well as dust of carbon, probably highly ionized and, as predicted by Velikovsky, hydrocarbons: <snip> >"The discovery of ethane was a blinding surprise," >according to research team leader Dr. Michael J. Mumma of the >Laboratory for Extraterrestrial Physics at NASA's Goddard >Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, MD. The spectral lines, or >identifying signature of ethane gas, "were so bright they >seemed to leap off the computer screen when we got the first >observation," Mumma said. >I am saying that comets are not balls of frozen carbon monoxide Agreed. CO has a very low boiling point, for starters. Comets are balls of frozen methane and ammonia and ice and H2S and a whole lot of other stuff too. The same material essentially that Jupiter and Saturn shrug off. It is part of the ecology of the solar system. I believe the Earth would have died of lack of air and water billions of years ago except for this constant process of replenishment. Instead it has been slowly growing and it could be that everytime nature resets the clock, someone else comes in and sows it all again. Or so the ancients theorized. So there is another explanation for the current phenomena, there is a genetic salvage operation going on. And the level of activity and their disconcern for whether they are seen or not could mean we are all going to get wiped away pretty soon anyway. >that periodically gas the earth. If a comet of sufficient size >were to strike earth it could do some damage, but passing through >a cloud of cometary flotsam, including millions of tons of >imaginary carbon monoxide, is not a threat. Yes it is! The Greenland ice cores as described and discussed in [Scientific American Oct 1994 special issue 'Life in the Universe`] and the human record both suggest to us cyclic catastrophes. Problem with HB is it can clip the orbit of both Jupiter and the Earth. If there was a big smash in the past - and it looks like there was - then a lot of the stuff caused by the smash is now going to be following in the wake of the comet, decades behind maybe, or perhaps arriving this week. Velikovsky actually wrote an entire book about the process of collective denial that most of humanity engages in with respect to these events. Another reason could be that Big Religion cannot face the fact that Jehova/God must have been a comet: "Behold the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down.....the inhabitants of the earth are burned and few men left...." Isaiah 24:1-6. "Fear, and the pit, and the snare are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth......for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly." Isaiah 24:17-19. "....there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt for three days...." (Exodus 10:22) "...fear....poor men....the land is not light because of it." (Ipuwer Scrolls 9:11) "....and the lord sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along the ground; and the Lord rained hail upon the land of Egypt, so there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grevious... (Ex 9:23) "Why really, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire." (Ip 2:10) "...and the hail smote every herb of the field, and smote every tree...." (Ex 9:25) "Why really, trees are destroyed....no fruit or herbs are found for the birds.....grain has perished on every side...." (Ip 5:12) "Behold now, the fire has mounted up on high. It's flame goes forth against the enemies of the land....." (Ip 7:1) "And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go.... the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light. (Ex 13:19) >>I see that mainstream science has just started to recognize this >>seriously. I wrote about a big dark comet apparently coming in >>1994, before HB was reported..... >HB was NEVER giving off a million tons of CO every day. It was reported in New Scientist 2nd November 1996 that Dave Jewitt et al. at the Uni. of Hawaii had discovered last September "...that Hale Bopp was throwing out vast amounts of carbon monoxide - around a tonne of gas per second...." plus about a third as much CO2. That is a mere 86 400 tons per day, but following reports caused estimates to be revised sharply upwards to 6 and then 8 tons per second. I'll see if I can find references to this. One obstacle is that astronomers (believe it or not) are putting up barriers saying they won't let their data be used for "pseudoscience". (See the RAS site for instance.) I try to be accurate but my files have been through their own recent bout of cataclysm and punctured equilibrium. :) >The fact is that anyone who keeps their house airtight for a >month during the winter may well get carbon monoxide poisoning. >But it will probably be from your advice to do so, not from any >comet! I agree! That is not what I meant. Since an early symptom of CO poisoning is lethargy and headaches, I am sure most people would have the sense to open some windows at that stage. I meant "overnight". Astronomers work from the assumption that the solar system they are observing in the 20th century is much like the solar system of 4000 BC. It wasn't. Not long ago there were dazzling comets everywhere, the "celestial gods" that some mythographers thought were UFO's. These objects are the planet-grazers, many orbiting well out of the plane of the ecliptic. They are known to be relatively recent. While many are still up there the volatiles are gone now and most are mere cinders - the reduced iron I suggest gets cooked up inside the big comets. As for evidence of widespread poisoning as a result of CO arriving silently and unexpectedly from the skies, I can only reaffirm that I have found many references to this encoded in the old "myths". But this file is much too long already. Oh, and that rain that falls from the sky about now, perhaps with the essence of Jupiter and Saturn in it - is what was known as lucent or holy water. Collect it if you can. It might help induce that boggling here-but-there-too experience that can be mistaken for astral travel, abduction, melding with the god of your choice or one hell of a nightmare, depending on what you resonate with. Sigh. More speculation. Awfully On-Topic Lawrie Williams________________ [and this should be taken to e-mail now please --ebk] 8 8 8 Truth lies at the bottom of the great abyss 8 8 8 ps archaic "non" = "spinning top" hence "Nonnos" - "top Bringers"? HAPPY NEW YEAR ! HAPPY NEW YEAR !! HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY !!!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 31 Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #210 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 06:30:40 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:19:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #210 Apology to MW #210 (For December 31, 1997) What kind of joy filled season has our old friend John Ford had? Did he sit around with friends and smoke and joke? Did he unwrap all the presents that they deigned to let him have; did he hear from any family or folk? Did he eat a ham or turkey? Did he pound some pumpkin pie, or did he sit, a placid heap, his heartfelt wish that he would die? You know he feels forgotten through the haze of drugs he's forced. And you know they keep him doped "for his own good." You know he's feeling pressure from the darkest pits of hell, but the reasons are not clear, nor are they _even_ understood! Suffolk county says he's dirty -- that he tried to kill some folks, but the story smells of guppies and sardines. It's all contrived to misdirect attention from what's real? It's the man at crushing best, and it's obscene. Call on ABC or CBS or NBC. Drop a line to C-Span -- CNN. Ask them what the deal is, and can't attention please be given to this man, all but forgotten, I portend. _Why_ is Ford forsaken, and _where's_ his spot on Sixty Minutes, and _why_ is he in trouble making bail? =85Plenty worse than him released from prison every day, but they hold him in a nut ward of a jail. "He should be in a nut ward -- as he dared to question why! He'd be ripping off our blinders! We'd be free to see the sky! He's wants to put a light on what we'd sooner keep in darkness, so let's lie him in a hole we've made to keep him safe and harmless." What _was_ he so involved in, and _what_ had he found out? Where was all the evidence that 'the man' can do without? Where'd he get the *hot stuff* that was found outside his pickup, and what of jurisprudence, then, as wholesome as a spit cup? Why is he _ignored_, and left to rot in wrongful dungeons? Why can't he get a hearing; why's he getting culture's truncheon? What is in his heart when he can see that he's alone, for a crime gone uncommitted, then, for which he must atone? Lehmberg@snowhill.com Ironic -- that at this seasonal juncture another man suffers a crucifixion for, likely, what he thought, said, and did within the law. I've always said it -- but where there is actual threat there is no paranoia -- your fear is justified. We are all set precariously close to an edge of something that we _could_ be preparing for. This thing has a beneficial potential, like a hard driving rain for a parched pond. It may be that the rain has a bit of hail in it, but it _is_ all water -- besides, I feel I know where the hail is going =85 the hail you say! Free John Ford! -- Explore the Alien View? http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/ "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 31 Re: Donaldson Predicts Contact From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:08:41 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:20:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Donaldson Predicts Contact Ted Viens wrote: > Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:13:11 -0800 > From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: Sam Donaldson on Nightline Predicts VLA Radio Astronomy > Detects Aliens in '98 > Its the damndest thing... Here I am reading Nexxus and UFO > UpDates stuff from their mail lists when my attention is dragged > back to the wrap-up of the Nightline light entertainment show on > New Years Predictions. Sam Donaldson is making the closing > remark when his words start to break into my awareness. He is > saying something to the effect that "it may be the damndest thing > but I expect the big array in New Mexico will detect aliens this > year and I don't mean from across the border but signals from > outer space." <snip> Amazing, wasn't it? I didn't see a single hint of the TIC Syndrome (tongue-in-cheek) which normally accompanies statements on the subject by news anchors. And, although the VLA isn't often used in the SETI program, there is always the chance of serendipity, n'est-ce pas. <G> As a friend pointed out, a signal from space would be the natural progression of graduated disclosure. First we find planets outside our solar system; next, evidence of extraterrestrial life; and finally, contact! I hope they keep the White House lawn nicely trimmed. <BG> Happy New Year to all! Terry
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 31 Re: ACC Responds To Reports Of SAIC Purchasing Bell From: entropy@brighid.sunflower.com [Tom Genereaux] Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:32:10 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:56:24 -0500 Subject: Re: ACC Responds To Reports Of SAIC Purchasing Bell > ACC Responds To Reports Of > SAIC Purchasing Bell Labs <massive snip> Ok...let's set the record straight here. SAIC acquired *BellCore* - not the old Bell Labs, which was spun out and is now Lucent Technologies. BellCore was set up by the "Baby Bells" to provide the same services as the Consumer Products and Network divisions of Bell Laboratories after the consent decree split the RBOC's off from AT&T. BellCore received neither personnel nor facilities from AT&T - it was formed from scratch. Other ACC commentary: The so-called Trans-Cap is actually a failed attempt to create a solid-state pentode, dating from the early 1950's. I'm modeling the structure in SPICE, and will have some commentary on how well it works in a few weeks. So far it doesn't. The supercomputer they're touting is an architecture that dates from the 1980's - the Meiji computing surface. This used a cluster of 4 transputers (an interesting microprocesser design by INMOS) per node. Other variants of the architecture were also poked around at the time, most noticably the Alewife design out of MIT. Pretty boring, and not nearly as interesting as the current "Workstation Cluster" designs being built at MIT and Berkeley. Tom G.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 31 Re: Donaldson Predicts Contact From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:20:57 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:01:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Donaldson Predicts Contact >Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:08:41 -0800 >From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Donaldson Predicts Contact >Ted Viens wrote: >> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:13:11 -0800 >> From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> >> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >> Subject: Sam Donaldson on Nightline Predicts VLA Radio Astronomy >> Detects Aliens in '98 >> Its the damndest thing... Here I am reading Nexxus and UFO >> UpDates stuff from their mail lists when my attention is dragged >> back to the wrap-up of the Nightline light entertainment show on >> New Years Predictions. Sam Donaldson is making the closing >> remark when his words start to break into my awareness. He is >> saying something to the effect that "it may be the damndest thing >> but I expect the big array in New Mexico will detect aliens this >> year and I don't mean from across the border but signals from >> outer space." ><snip> >Amazing, wasn't it? I didn't see a single hint of the TIC >Syndrome (tongue-in-cheek) which normally accompanies statements >on the subject by news anchors. And, although the VLA isn't >often used in the SETI program, there is always the chance of >serendipity, n'est-ce pas. <G> The Very Large Array (VLA) was designed as a radio telescope, and was not part of the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence (SETI) program. However, I believe that the VLA was sometimes used in conjuction with several other radio telescopes in the northern part of the western hemisphere to examine objects in the sky, and some of those other radio telescopes were also used by SETI. As with most major telescopes, the demand for time exceeds the time available. Since Donaldson is a New Mexico landowner, he is familiar with the VLA. Why he would believe that the VLA is going to being the extensive search for ET, I'm not sure. But I would add that both ABC and CBS has done relatively good documentaries on sightings and the UFO controversy, so not all of their reports are "tongue-in-cheek". Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1997 > Dec > Dec 31 Re: Space Tourism Within 3 Years From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:28:49 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:13:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Space Tourism Within 3 Years >From the electronic edition of The Nando Times. URL: http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/health/123197/health1_16331_noframes.html ******* First tourists to visit space within 3 years Copyright =A91997 Nando.net Copyright =A91997 Reuters =B0Nando's special report: '97 Year in Review SAN FRANCISCO (December 31, 1997 11:00 a.m. EST http://www.nando.net) - Has the thrill gone out of visiting Timbuktu? Was the Antarctic anti-climactic this year? For world travelers grown world weary, there is a fresh tourist buzz on the horizon: pay up, strap in, count down and blast off. Zegrahm Space Voyages, a division of Seattle-based adventure tour operator Zegrahm Expeditions, is taking reservations for what it bills as the world's first tourist space shot on Dec. 1, 2001. For a cool $98,000, you can book your own recliner on the as-yet unbuilt Space Cruiser, a shuttle-like craft that will whisk travelers to the official "astronaut altitude" of 62 miles above sea-level. "This is the most exotic, exclusive travel opportunity ever," said Scott Fitzsimmons, Zegrahm's vice president and its main spokesman for outer space travel. "The interest has been staggering -- mostly from tour companies who realize that the future is not here on Earth but up in space." Zegrahm's low-orbit holiday might seem like a pipe dream, but company officials swear it will occur and a lucky few will earn their wings as the first tourist astronauts. The plan got a vote of confidence this year when the alumni travel program at Stanford University, one of the country's most prestigious schools, offered its members a chance to book a spot on "undoubtedly the most expensive program we've ever offered." WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY -- BUT DO WE HAVE THE CASH? Expensive indeed. While Zegrahm envisions a seven-day package including hotel, meals, lectures and training, the real thrill is the 2-1/2 hour flight culminating in just 2-1/2 minutes of continual weightlessness. Fitzsimmons says the flight's out-of-this-world pricetag is unavoidable. "You've got to remember, every time the space shuttle takes off it costs $500 million," he said. It still costs a lot to build an entirely new spaceship. Zegrahm has joined forces with Vela Technology Development Inc. to construct the two-stage system, which they say will be spaceworthy in three years. Late last month the space travel partnership selected its prime contractor: AeroAstro LLC of Herndon, Virginia, a satellite specialist with clients that include Los Alamos National Laboratory, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Boston University's Center for Space Physics. The design is aimed at making space as comfortable as possible for people accustomed to traveling first class. First, there is the "Sky Lifter" -- a conventional aircraft powered by jet engines that will carry the tourist capsule until it reaches an altitude of 50,000 feet . Then the patented "Space Cruiser" will detach and continue on its way. The snazzy 60-foot-long delta-winged craft, which will carry six passengers, will be equipped with both rocket and jet engines and will travel at a maximum speed of 2,300 miles per hour. 'THIS IS NOT A LEAP OF FAITH' "It is important to say this is not a leap of faith," Fitzsimmons said. "The technology for all of this exists." In the cruiser, made of lightweight carbon-fiber composite, each of the space tourists in their personal flightsuits will have a porthole and a reclining seat that can be stowed flat when weightlessness is achieved. "You'll be able to somersault, twirl and soar through the cabin," Fitzsimmons said. For those who might fall prey to the wrenching nausea astronauts experience as space sickness, there will also be a toilet aboard -- but no movies or in-flight service. "No meals or drinks are planned. You have to cut down on the amount of stuff floating around," Fitzsimmons said. Not everyone dreaming of a vacation in space can afford the Zegrahm program, even with its installment payment plan. So, for the budget-conscious adventure-seeker, there is another option: the Civilian Astronauts Corps. "We hope to get off in 1999, so we'll beat them to it," said Harry Dace, a businessman who joined with a NASA aeronautical engineer to form the Houston-based CAC. The corps, recruiting members for $3,500 apiece in hopes of getting together the $8 million it will take to finance their dream, promises astronaut wannabes four minutes of weightless and the thrill of a ride on a rocket roaring twice as fast as a speeding bullet. "Our trip will be a real joy ride," Dace said. "We were joking around and saying that probably a few minutes into the flight some of our members are gonna be thinking this was the worst idea they've ever had." Other groups are also joining the race to put civilians into space, many of them spurred by the "X Prize," a $10 million award that will go to the first private citizen who can launch three passengers to an altitude of at least 62 miles and repeat the feat within two weeks. Others are taking a longer-term view. "We're looking to space tourism from other companies to build interest in our project," said Ian Randal Strock, vice president of Lunar Resources Co., a Texas company with hopes of building a commercial moonbase resort. "It is all just a question of who gets there first." By ANDREW QUINN, Reuters =1A Copyright =A91997 Nando.net Do you have some feedback for the Nando Times staff?