UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Feb 2000

  Feb 1:

   Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes - Joseph Polanik [60]
   Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip - Roger Evans [53]
   Rotating Objects = No Memory - Kelly McGillis [68]
   Re: Velez, Mortellaro, Humor, And Pain - Sharon Kardol [26]
   Should Saucers Spin? - Kelly McGillis [335]
   Earth Lights Site - Kelly [23]
   No Cheat Sheets Allowed - Kelly McGillis [103]
   Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes - Stephen Miles Lewis
   [96]
   Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes - Bob Young [39]
   Re: Recent UFO Sightings Lack Credibility... - Michael Christol [26]
   Top Events Goes Into Liquidation - What A Surprise - Philip Mantle [95]
   Request E-mail Address? - Diane Harrison [29]
   Re: Recent UFO Sightings Lack Credibility... - Michael Christol [18]
   BBC 'Watchdog' & Roy Bird - Philip Mantle [17]
   TMP News: News Briefing - 2.1.00 - Paul Anderson [40]
   'Exposure Magazine' Oz Changes Hands - Diane Harrison [116]
   60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes - Greg Sandow [42]
   Re: Should Saucers Spin? - Sam Sherman [38]
   Re: Velez, Mortellaro, Humor, And Pain - Dave Bowden [119]
   1909 Travel to Mars - Joaquim Fernandes [19]
   Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip - Donald Ledger [18]

  Feb 2:

   Re: Rotating Objects = No Memory - Josh Goldstein [34]
   Press Release: Campaign 2000 - Get Out the - Stephen G. Bassett [59]
   Officer Stevens Responds to CSICOP - Kenny Young [46]
   Re: Should Saucers Spin? - Bruce Maccabee [161]
   Re: Request E-mail Address? - Chris Kelly [9]
   Re: Should Saucers Spin? - Kelly McGillis [37]
   AA Film - Danger Sign - Philip Mantle [21]
   C-E: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Sam Sherman [41]
   Re: C-E: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Stan Friedman [55]
   Re: 1909 Travel to Mars - Paul Thompson [12]
   Bob Kiviat? - Philip Mantle [6]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Marty Murray [74]
   Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes - Bob Young [20]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Jim Mortellaro [61]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - John Rimmer [18]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Bruce Maccabee [20]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Jim Mortellaro [21]
   Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes - Greg Sandow [71]
   Re: Recent UFO Sightings Lack Credibility... - Michael Christol [20]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - GT McCoy [48]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Sam Sherman [36]
   Re: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2) - Mac Tonnies [123]

  Feb 3:

   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Mac Tonnies [21]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Ed Stewart [164]
   Re: Mac Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [29]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Mac Tonnies [61]
   Re: Should Saucers Spin? - Asgeir W. Skavhaug [102]
   Italian Magazine Looking For New Writers - Philip Mantle [12]
   Re: AA Film - New Information - Neil Morris [109]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 5 - John Hayes [512]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Donald Ledger [45]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Donald Ledger [55]
   Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip - Robert Gates [11]
   Re: Italian Magazine Looking For New Writers - Edoardo Russo [34]
   TV Producers and Joe Nickell - Sam Sherman [20]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Marty [36]
   Re: Should Saucers Spin? - Victor J.Kean [14]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Serge Salvaille [21]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Greg Sandow [14]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Stan Friedman [47]

  Feb 4:

   Re: Mac Tonnies - Michel M. Deschamps [42]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Jim Mortellaro [76]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Sam Sherman [36]
   TMP News: News Briefing - 2.4.00 - Paul Anderson [40]
   Sighting Over Lincolnshire, UK - Todd Lemire [36]
   Re: Should Saucers Spin? - Asgeir W. Skavhaug [54]
   Re: - Alfredo Lissoni [25]
   AA US News Clippings? - Philip Mantle [12]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - Bob Young [38]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Jerome Clark [51]
   Italian Magazine Looking For New Writers - Alfredo Lissoni [25]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - Serge Salvaille [43]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - Henny van der Pluijm [37]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - Henny van der Pluijm [37]
   The Mathews', Morris & Buckley Bail On UFOIN - Tim Mathews [9]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - Jim Mortellaro [61]

  Feb 5:

   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - Michael J. Woods [91]
   Re: Should Saucers Spin? - Josh Goldstein [65]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - Jim Mortellaro [96]
   Re: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2) - Nick Balaskas [46]
   Filer's Files #05 -- 2000 - Majorstar@aol.com [446]
   Re: Should Saucers Spin? - Victor J.Kean [18]
   Re: Should Saucers Spin? - Larry Hatch [41]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #337 - Alfred Lehmberg [79]
   Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip - James Easton [127]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Ed Stewart [132]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - Greg Sandow [21]
   Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip - Roger Evans [86]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - Jerome Clark [45]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Stan Friedman [180]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - John Velez [87]
   TMP News: News Briefing 2.5.00 - Paul Anderson [45]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - John Rimmer [18]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - Dennis Stacy [74]

  Feb 6:

   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - Donald Ledger [162]
   Re: Rotating Objects = No Memory - Todd Lemire [32]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - Serge Salvaille [71]
   Re: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2) - Mac Tonnies [32]
   New 'Alien Autopsy' Photo's? - Philip Mantle [13]
   Re: New 'Alien Autopsy' Photos? - Royce J. Myers III [33]
   Tonight On 'Strange Days... Indeed' Mike Woods & - EBK [52]
   AA Film - New Findings and Roswell Linkage - Neil Morris [74]
   New 'Alien Autopsy' Photos? - GT McCoy [29]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - Michael J. Woods [297]
   Re: New 'Alien Autopsy' Photos? - Neil Morris [29]
   Re: The Eyes Have It - Joseph Polanik [56]
   Stewart & Friedman [was: Re: Officer Stevens - Ed Stewart [361]

  Feb 7:

   Re: Should Saucers Spin? - Asgeir W. Skavhaug [50]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - Jim Mortellaro [112]
   Re: New 'Alien Autopsy' Photos? - James Bond Johnson [11]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Stan Friedman [23]
   Re: Should Saucers Spin? - Mark Cashman [31]
   Re: Should Saucers Spin? - Mark Cashman [57]
   Re: Bennewitz's Report To APRO - Robert Gates [23]
   Re: The Eyes Have It - Jim Mortellaro [103]
   Re: - Donald . Ledger [296]
   Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes - Mark Cashman [47]
   The Smell Test - Roger Evans [42]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - John Velez [43]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - John Velez [92]
   A Film - New Findings and Roswell Linkage - - Neil Morris [24]
   Re: The Mathews', Morris & Buckley Bail On UFOIN - "E. Campos ou O.
   Raynaud" [20]
   Re: The Mathews', Morris & Buckley Bail On UFOIN - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [16]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - Donald . Ledger [296]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - Steven Kaeser [65]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Ed Stewart [111]
   [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos - Lan Fleming [18]
   Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes - John Velez [81]
   NZ Scientists Present Theory On Ball Lightning - Steven L. Wilson, Sr
   [50]
   Re: Bennewitz's Report To APRO - Gildas Bourdais [33]
   Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos - Nick Balaskas [37]
   Re: A Film - New Findings and Roswell Linkage - Asgeir W. Skavhaug [30]
   Federal Judge Reserves Decision On UFO Group'S - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [47]

  Feb 8:

   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - Serge Salvaille [57]
   Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos - GT McCoy [51]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Murray Bott [20]
   Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes - Stephen Miles Lewis
   [162]
   Re: News Briefing 2.8.00 - Paul Anderson [45]
   Oz Spy Base - Nurrungar - John Auchettl [160]
   News Briefing 2.8.00 - Paul Anderson [43]
   Re: A Film - New Findings and Roswell Linkage - Neil Morris [67]
   Death of Viaud Marcel, Wife of Jesse - Stan Friedman [7]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Stan Friedman [49]
   NASA Set For Historic Asteroid Encounter - NASANews@hq.nasa.gov [61]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - Michael J. Woods [68]
   SDI On Space Channel Tonight... - UFO UpDates - Toronto [10]
   Ice From The Sky In Holland - Jeroen Kumeling [6]
   Re: SDI On Space Channel Tonight... - Michael J. Woods [22]
   William Moore on MJ-12 and Roswell - Hkan Eriksson [44]
   Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes - John Velez [113]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell - Jim Mortellaro [42]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell & Gripple - Michael J. Woods [25]

  Feb 9:

   Mysteries of the New Millennium Convention - Philip Mantle [37]
   Re: Death of Viaud Marcel, Wife of Jesse - Michael Christol [20]
   Re: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2) - Nick Balaskas [35]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell & Gripple - Jim Mortellaro [62]
   Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip - James Easton [127]
   Caution - Fowl Play Afoot... - Jim Mortellaro [41]
   Re: The Eyes Have It - Joseph Polanik [39]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Ed Stewart [78]
   Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos - Mark Cashman [56]
   TMP News: News Briefing 2.9.00 - Paul Anderson [44]
   Perpendicular Meteors - Brian Cuthbertson [21]
   Randle Responds To Velez - Elsewhere - John Veleez [321]
   Re: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2) - Don Ecker [35]
   Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland - GT McCoyy [24]
   Re: The Eyes Have It - Jim Mortellaro [88]
   Re: Mysteries of the New Millennium Convention - John Rimmer [12]
   Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland - Henny van der Pluijm [13]
   Info/Theories Of Possible Alien Moonbase? - Stefan Duncan [18]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Stan Friedman [58]
   Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip - Roger Evans [63]
   Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland - Joseph Trainor [11]
   Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland - Jeroen Kumeling [4]

  Feb 10:

   Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland - Paul Anderson [37]
   Books Going... - Roy J Hale [5]
   The British National UFO Research Association - Tim Mathews [102]
   Re: Info/Theories Of Possible Alien Moonbase? - Brian Cuthbertson [11]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Ed Stewart [137]
   Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell & Gripple - Allen Loper [25]
   Re: Westerbork & Lovell End Search For Lander - Jeroen Kumeling [66]
   Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland - Brian Cuthbertson [30]
   Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland - Larry Hatch [37]
   Re: Info/Theories Of Possible Alien Moonbase? - Kenny Young [30]
   Re: Info/Theories Of Possible Alien Moonbase? - Nick Balaskas [26]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 6 - John Hayes [551]
   Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos - Lan Fleming [108]
   Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland - Henny van der Pluijm [57]
   Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland - Nick Balaskas [77]
   Re: Info/Theories Of Possible Alien Moonbase? - Josh Goldstein [50]
   Re: The British National UFO Research Association - Richard D. Nolane
   [11]
   Re: Everything Before This Book A Confabulation - Jim Mortellaro [91]

  Feb 11:

   Re: Everything Before This Book A Confabulation - Roy J Hale [20]
   Re: The British National UFO Research Association - Andy Roberts [30]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Stan Friedman [73]
   Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos - Michel M. Deschamps [32]
   Re: - John Velez [49]
   Dutch Scientists Investigate Falling Ice-Cubes - Jeroen Kumeling [20]
   More Ice: Read Charles Fort - Jeroen Kumeling [317]
   Re: Mysteries of the New Millennium Convention - Philip Mantle [23]
   Re: Everything Before This Book A Confabulation - John Velez [49]

  Feb 12:

   Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000 - George A. Filer, Director [466]
   Filer's Files #06 -- 2000 - George A. Filer, Director [466]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Robert Gates [164]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #338 - Alfred Lehmberg [95]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Ed Stewart [180]
   Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos - Larry Hatch [51]
   March 2000 Life Magazine - Sue Kovios [45]

  Feb 13:

   Phoneix Lights - Roy J Hale [5]
   Re: The British National UFO Research Association - Roy J Hale [28]
   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP - Stephen G. Bassett [20]
   Re: The British National UFO Research Association - Sean Jones [11]
   Blather: Competition - Win a Paul Devereux Book... - Blather [108]
   Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland - UFO UpDates - Toronto [45]
   Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland - Jim Mortellaro [45]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Stan Friedman [68]
   Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos - Lan Fleming [22]
   Tonight - Lindy Tucker - Pt. II on 'Strange - EBK [34]

  Feb 14:

   Post Abduction Syndrome (PAS) - UFO UpDates - Toronto [225]
   Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland - Josh Goldstein [60]
   P-47 - Sending The Wrong Message - Jan Aldrich [79]
   Blather: Out of the Marvellous - Blather [392]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Ed Stewart [334]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Ed Stewart [49]
   Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000 - Jerome Clark [47]
   Re: Phoneix Lights - Stefan Duncan [12]
   Reading List for HighSchool Seniors? - Todd Lemire [13]
   Re: Phoneix Lights - Roy J Hale [12]
   Re: Should Saucers Spin? - Asgeir W. Skavhaug [108]
   Radiocontact with Aliens? - Jesus Millan Arias [5]
   Re: Phoenix Lights - Brian Cuthbertson [22]
   'SFX Artist'/Message Poster Sought - Philip Mantle [86]
   Re: Radiocontact with Aliens? - Jerome Clark [26]
   Re: Phoneix Lights - Josh Goldstein [26]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Stan Friedman [30]
   Re: Phoneix Lights - Stefan Duncan [24]
   Re: Radiocontact with Aliens? - Serge Salvaille [42]

  Feb 15:

   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Ed Stewart [140]
   Re: Phoneix Lights - GT. McCoy [62]
   Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip - Ed Gehrman [30]
   Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors? - Larry Hatch [37]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Stan Friedman [45]
   Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors - Larry Robinson S/AP/EIS
   Kinesiology <lrobins>indiana.edu> [71]
   Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors? - Stan Friedman [47]
   Re: Phoneix Lights - Bruce Maccabee [59]
   Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip - Roger Evans [70]
   Re: UK Conference - Philip Mantle [7]
   Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors? - Jim Mortellaro [27]

  Feb 12:

   Filer's Files #06 -- 2000 - George A. Filer, Director [466]

  Feb 16:

   Boyne Island QLD, OZ - 1997 - Diane Harrison [113]
   Re: Should Saucers Spin? - Asgeir W. Skavhaug [106]
   Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors - Todd Lemire [30]
   Re: Phoneix Lights - Roy J Hale [19]
   Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip - Neil Morris [132]
   Re: Heads Up for Fri/Sat & STARSHINE - Terry Blanton [9]
   Second MGS Photograph of Phobos 'Monolith' - Lan Fleming [15]
   Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip - Roger Evans [122]
   Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000 - Joe Murgia [75]
   P3N Bulletin: Federal Judge Agrees with CAUS... - Blair Cummins [40]
   Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000 - Jerome Clark [48]
   Re: Roswell Items Sent to NASA - Blair Cummins [30]

  Feb 17:

   Titanic Collision Onset Lights Up Supernova Ring - NASA [88]
   Re: Titanic Collision Onset Lights Up Supernova - Roger Evans [35]
   TMP News: News Briefing 2.17.00 - Paul Anderson [47]
   Radio Activity That Doesn't Leave Traces? - Todd Lemire [23]
   Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors - Jim Mortellaro [94]
   Re: Titanic Collision Onset Lights Up Supernova - Brian Cuthbertson
   [48]
   Re: Phoneix Lights - Terry Blanton [25]
   Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors? - James Bouck [18]

  Feb 18:

   Re: Radio Activity That Doesn't Leave Traces? - Mark Cashman [43]
   Police See UFO Over Mexico City - Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [31]
   Re: Titanic Collision Onset Lights Up Supernova - Nick Balaskas [54]
   Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000 - Nick Balaskas [75]
   Re: Phoneix Lights - Bruce Maccabee [22]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 7 - John Hayes [543]
   [lunascan] FW: Sitchin Lecture - Brian Zinkle [39]
   Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors? - Nick Balaskas [32]
   TMP News: News Briefing 2.18.00 - Paul Anderson [49]
   Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000 - Jerome Clark [27]
   CME Heads for Earth - Terry Blanton [11]
   Aurora alert for Feb. 19 and/or 20 - Nick Balaskas [17]
   Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors? - Todd Lemire [18]
   Re: Roswell Items Sent to NASA - Nick Balaskas [34]
   Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000 - Nick Balaskas [34]
   Filer's Files #7 - George A. Filer [470]
   My Lunch with MJ12 - Bob Huff [67]
   Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors? - Jim Mortellaro [97]
   Re: Phoneix Lights + WCW - Josh Goldstein [67]
   Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors? - Josh Goldstein [54]
   Re: Phoenix Lights - Patrick Bailey [72]

  Feb 19:

   Re: Roswell Items Sent to NASA - John Velez [62]
   Re: Phoneix Lights - GT McCoy [77]
   Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors? - Larry Hatch [77]
   Re: My Lunch with MJ12 - Larry Hatch [13]
   Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000 - Larry Hatch [53]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #339 - Alfred Lehmberg [73]
   Re: Reading List for High School Seniors - Beverly Trout [42]
   Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000 - Jerome Clark [36]
   Re: My Lunch with MJ12 - Bob Huff [15]
   Re: My Lunch with MJ12 - Josh Goldstein [22]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Ed Stewart [33]
   The Reality of MJ12 - Bob Huff [51]
   Re: My Lunch with MJ12 - Sean Jones [19]
   Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip - Ed Gehrman [90]
   Re: My Lunch with MJ12 - Brian Cuthbertson [37]

  Feb 20:

   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Jim Mortellaro [69]
   Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip - Rebecca Keith [41]
   Re: AA Film - New Information - James Bond Johnson [22]
   Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip - Steven W. Kaeser [41]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Stanton T. Friedman [40]
   Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says - Sue Kovios [68]
   Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says - TimHaley@aol.com [33]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Alfred Lehmberg [34]
   Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip - Roger Evans [66]

  Feb 21:

   An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress - Tim Haley [43]
   Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says - Steven W. Kaeser [58]
   Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip - Terry Blanton [27]
   Reed Speech At The IUFOC - UFO UpDates - Toronto [205]
   Kelly's New Site - Kelly McGillis [30]
   Re: My Lunch with MJ12 - Bob Huff [62]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Serge Salvaille [36]
   Shag Harbour - Canadian UFO Documentary - Blair Cummins [94]
   Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000 - Jim Mortellaro [79]
   Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says - Roger Evans [41]

  Feb 22:

   Re: My Lunch with MJ12 - John Ratcliff [12]
   The Anomalist 8 - Dennis Stacy [36]
   Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO - Robert Gates [50]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Robert Gates [449]
   Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says - Henny van der Pluijm [48]
   Re: My Lunch with MJ12 - Bob Huff [24]
   Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO - Roy J Hale [33]
   Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO - Jim Mortellaro [137]
   'Alien Hand' Syndrome Turns Limbs Monstrous - Jeroen Kumeling [82]

  Feb 23:

   The Book 'Above Black' - Nancy Davidson [7]
   Re: An Open Letter to the International - Josh Goldstein [35]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - GT McCoy [66]
   Life Magazine Article Rebuttal - UFO UpDates - Toronto [498]
   Re: olice See UFO Over Mexico City - Ron Cecchini [23]
   An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress - Robert Gates [63]
   Re: The Book 'Above Black' - UFO UpDates - Toronto [20]
   Re: 'Alien Hand' Syndrome Turns Limbs Monstrous - Larry Hatch [22]
   Re: Stewart & Friedman - Roger Annette Evans [32]
   Great Balls Of Fire - Kelly [34]
   Ball Lightning - Personal Experience - Kelly [53]
   Re: My Lunch with MJ12 - Sean Jones [40]
   Re: My Lunch with MJ12 - Sean Jones [42]
   Alien Invasion Week on TLC - Stan Friedman [10]
   Re: My Lunch with MJ12 - Henny van der Pluijm [42]
   Re: Police See UFO Over Mexico City - Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [37]
   Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO - Jim Mortellaro [55]
   Re: Alien Invasion Week on TLC - John Velez [20]

  Feb 24:

   Off-Line 'Til Monday 28th, PM - UFO UpDates - Toronto [5]
   C-E: O'Reily Factor - Fox News Channel - Kenny Young [7]
   Oberg on 'Space Shuttle UFO Videos' - UFO UpDates - Toronto [110]

  Feb 29:

   Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO - Kathleen Anderson [34]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 8 - John Hayes [521]
   Re: O'Reily Factor - Fox News Channel - Lan Fleming [26]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #340 - Alfred Lehmberg [69]
   Filer's Files #08 -- 2000 - Majorstar@aol.com [472]
   Candidate Harder Ripped for UFO Related Views - Joe Murgia [93]
   What's new at Magonia Online - Mark Pilkington [5]
   X-PPAC Media Alert - 2/27/00 - Stephen Bassett [26]
   New UFO Material at The Temporal Doorway - Mark Cashman [24]
   BBC UFO Report Query - Steven Kaeser [8]
   Birdsall NASA UFO Movie - Jaames Oberg [50]
   Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - John Velez [37]
   Research Institute on Anomalous Phenomena, - Patricia Mason [110]
   Ruppelt & 'The Radiation Story'? - Todd Lemire [27]
   Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Kelly McGillis [48]
   Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Stephen MILES Lewis [28]
   Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Donnie Shevlin [10]
   Re: Ruppelt & 'The Radiation Story'? - Adam Lowe [17]
   Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Chris Rutkowski [41]
   Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Jim Deardorff [35]
   Bionic Man? - Sean Jones [29]
   Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Sean Jones [38]
   Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Jeff Westover [68]
   Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - John Velez [126]
   Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Peter Brookesmith Mendoza [24]
   Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Todd Lemire [25]

   The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 1

                Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes

From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:45:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 00:55:32 -0500
Subject: Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes


 >Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:18:27 -0500
 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
 >Subject: Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Anyone who engages in this debate -- actually, anyone who's
 >interested in abductions -- should read David Hufford's classic
 >study of a scary nocturnal experience, "The Terror That Comes in
 >the Night." Hufford studied a Newfoundland belief, that some
 >people are visited at night by an "old hag," who puts
 >frightening pressure on their chests while they lie in bed.
 >Hufford was able to find numerous Newfoundlanders who reported
 >this experience, and also found people in Pennsylvania who'd had
 >it, without the support (or inspiration) in the culture around
 >them. The experience, whatever it was, seemed genuine, and not
 >derived from cultural factors.

 >One explanation Hufford considered was sleep paralysis, which in
 >one of the last chapters of the book, he examines in great
 >detail, along with other sleep disorders. He finds many
 >similarities between sleep paralysis and the "old hag"
 >experience, but rejects any simple idea that sleep paralysis is
 >the explanation. Perhaps, he says, the "old hag" experience can
 >be considered a variety of sleep paralysis -- but sleep
 >paralysis can't explain its content, and so the experience
 >remains unexplained.

It's important to note that the content of the experience is the
only thing that is not explained by Awareness during Sleep
Paralysis, which Dr. Hufford calls 'sleep paralysis'. He writes:


"Can we say that sleep research has "explained" the Old Hag? No,
we cannot. We cannot because what has been gained has been a
description of physiological events that seem to account for the
production of the state, that is, paralysis in wakefulness,
preceeding or following sleep, during which a complex and
frightening experience may take place. The specific contents of
the experience, however, have not been explained. They seem if
anything more odd than they did before. If they are related to
ordinary dreams by the presence of REM physiology, why is their
content so consistently the same without apparent regard for
culture?" (p. 169)


My analogy is this. People go to see a movie at the neighborhood
multiplex cinema. Some people see a science fiction thriller,
others see a western, a romantic comedy, a horror movie and so
on. A literary critic might comment on what people saw and the
themes expressed in each genre. A scientist or phenomenologist
would notice that the same camera can project any kind of movie.

The point is that cultural influences may well explain the
content of the experience while obscuring the common process
involved with nominally different experiences.

 >Not quite the same thing as our science fiction/abduction
 >conundrum, since Bob Young and others think that science fiction
 >imagery really does explain at least some of the content of
 >abduction narratives. The similarity, though, is in how facile
 >the explanation is, and how little it really explains.

Cultural influences *only* have to explain the content of the
abduction experience and not the state of consciousness in which
it occurs. The only theory that would rival the cultural
influence theory is the literal extraterrestrial hypothesis. If
the ETH isn't literaly true, then we have to explain why it
appears to so many that the abductors are extraterrestrials.




*****************************************************
Joseph Polanik, jpolanik@mindspring.com
Trionic Research Institute, http://www.trionica.com







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   Feb > Feb 1

                  Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:57:58 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 00:55:50 -0500
Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip


 >From: Steven W. Kaeser
 >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:56:17 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:50:45 -0500
 >Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

Previously, I had offered the following regarding the
"containment suits" in AA:

 >>And on this point, consider the irony: The suits were supposed
 >>to prevent contamination yet, because of poor visibility,
 >>actually increased the likelihood of a possible cut or nick by a
 >>contaminated scalpel. Ask any doctor and he or she will tell you
 >>that such things happen far to regularly under the best of
 >>conditions in the O.R. Protocols may change; the recognized

 >>I do not believe for an instant that a real doctor would even
 >>consider working under such conditions, even if they were in the
 >>military and taking orders.

Steven writes:

 >If you accept the cameraman's story, these suits were not really
 >required for safety reasons. I believe that he declined to wear
 >his suit while filming at least one of the procedures, in spite
 >of the fact that the medical personnel wore theirs.


Hi, Steven!

Well, this is sort of the nut of the whole thing. If they
weren't needed then why were they wearing them?

Continuing, Steven offered:

 >I would point out that radiation suits would have been different
 >than bio-hazard suits, which I believe these were meant to
 >represent.

Exactly! And what is a bio-hazard suit that isn't air tight? As
you say, if the alleged cameraman is to be believed, they could
wear them or not. Since they were useless as actual bio-hazard
suits, why on earth would a trained surgeon risk a nick or a cut
due to the poor visibility the suits rendered? This has never
made any sense to me at all.

Moving on, you wrote:

 >About 50% of the doctors that I spoke with (and that really
 >represents very few) thought the sequence shown was of an actual
 >procedure and not a re-creation. However, none were willing to
 >go "on the record" with that statement for fear of their
 >reputations and their not really wanting to get involved. So
 >where does that leave us?

 >There were several doctors involved in some of the early
 >productions that spoke positively about the AA sequences, but
 >they later changed their stories when their claim began to cause
 >them grief in their professions.

I think that they'd be a little more eager to back up the AA
scenario if Ray would do the right thing and give them some
support in return. After all, he wants them to risk their
reputations for his benefit. If he's telling the truth and has
the proof, then I see no risk for any doctor. You'd think Ray
would be just as eager for their support.

Oh. I forgot... The men in black warned him not to say anything.
;)


take care,

Roger







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                        Rotating Objects = No Memory

From: Kelly McGillis <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:32:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 00:56:01 -0500
Subject: Rotating Objects = No Memory


Perhaps this explains the phenomenon of alien abduction and
memory processes...?

http://unisci.com/stories/20001/0131004.htm

People Have Little Memory Of Objects That Rotate

New research in the February issue of the American Psychological
Association's Journal of Experimental Psychology: Human
Perception and Performance suggests that while people easily
remember the direction of objects that move toward or away from
them, or past them from side to side, they have virtually no
memory for the direction of objects that rotate.

In multiple experiments, psychologist David Gilden, Ph.D. and
his then graduate student Christy Price of the University of
Texas at Austin, showed 48 undergraduate students
computer-driven objects that moved either right or left across
the screen or rotated clockwise or counterclockwise, or grew
larger or smaller, mimicking the way objects look when they move
toward or away from you.

During the first phase of the experiment, the students studied
the objects as they moved on the screen. The researchers then
showed them the same objects either moving as they had
previously or in a new direction, or with a different motion.

After several experiments, Gilden and Price found that study
participants could accurately recall five minutes later the
direction of the motion of both looming (movement toward or away
from you) and translating (movement from one point to another)
objects but they only performed at the level of chance when
trying to remember the direction of rotating objects.

This is particularly curious because looming motion and rotating
objects both project fairly complicated patterns of movement on
the retina. Looming motions seem to be as complicated visually
as rotations and seem also to be processed in the same area of
the brain. So, if the complexity of the image on the retina
predicts cognitive function, people's memory for looming motion
would be approximately equal to their memory for rotating
motion. But Dr. Gilden's current experiments prove that it is
not.

Why are human beings so poor at remembering the direction of
rotating objects? Dr. Gilden theorizes that being able to judge
a looming or translating object had consequences for people
throughout our evolution.

It was critical, for example, to know whether the animal you
were hunting was coming at you or retreating. But there were no
similar instances that made a memory mechanism for rotating
objects important.

"Apparently," Dr. Gilden concludes, "visual understandings are
not organized in terms of the complexity of what is on the
retina, but rather in terms of what the practical consequences
are for behavior. When it comes to motion, humans are much more
concerned with where things are going than with their
orientation."

Therefore, Gilden concludes that the best way to teach people to
pull a car out of a spin is to teach them rote rules for doing
so, because we do not remember enough about rotations to be able
to control the spinning car based on past experiences.

Dr. Gilden plans to continue to study people's inability to
remember rotating motion in an attempt to find the point in the
visual system where rotating movement is dropped rather then
being passed on to higher cognitive and memory regions of the
brain.

He believes that because rotations held no evolutionary
significance for us, the brain simply developed to ignore them
at highly cognitive levels.

(Article: "Representations of Motion and Direction", Christy M.
Price and David L. Gilden, Ph.D., University of Texas at Austin.
Journal of Experimental Psychology: Human Perception and
Performance. Vol. 26, No. 1.)

Contact: David Gilden, Christy Price

31-Jan-2000







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                   Re: Velez, Mortellaro, Humor, And Pain

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 12:04:32 +0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 01:16:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Velez, Mortellaro, Humor, And Pain


 >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:52:55 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Velez, Mortellaro, Humor, And Pain
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >Dear Ms. W.A.C.;

 >Thank you for your post.  Poor timing has always been a problem
 >with me, however on different venues than the abduction
 >(perceived) scenario.  Whilst you are certainly entitled to your
 >opinion, as are all on this list, I would like to tell you the
 >truth as I know it to be.

<snip>

 >So Docca K, if I am being a bad boy, ask me to go to my room.  I
 >shall stay there only on one condition. That is that I be
 >allowed to suck my thumb whilst in there.  I have ten fingers
 >divided evenly on two hands. I'll even let you decide which one
 >I should suck on.  I do prefer the middle one.  Somehow it just
 >... I dunno ... it just feels right, you know?

 >Jimmy

Once again, Jim, it's a delite to read one of your posts and
this one is no exception.  Is that an encore I hear? Oh, please
no more, my sides would just positively burst!

Bravo, and thanks for laughter.. it sure is the best medicine
for the U F O blues..... :)

Cheers

Sharon K








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                            Should Saucers Spin?

From: Kelly McGillis <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:25:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 01:26:45 -0500
Subject: Should Saucers Spin?


http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/ethbull/mms23.html

No. 23 January 2000

EDITORIAL
This issue is devoted to Martin Kottmeyer's presentation of yet
more evidence showing how cultural influences, particularly,
science fiction films, affect the descriptions given by UFO
witnesses. Kottmeyer and others who use the psychosocial
hypothesis constantly produce evidence to support their ideas,
whereas the ETH proponents can produce only cranky ideas about
magnetic, anti-gravity or interdimensional saucers, accompanied
by a constant whingeing about "sceptics" and "debunkers" (not to
mention "armchair ufologists" and "pelicanists").

SHOULD SAUCERS SPIN?
Martin Kottmeyer

Many do. Most do not. There is no consistency in the matter.
Some whirl madly. Some rotate slowly. Seen from below, they
rotate counter-clockwise more often than clockwise, but not
universally. (1) Some manage to spin both ways at once; the
outer rim goes one way while the centre section turns the
opposite way. (2) Sometimes the rim spins and the centre stays
still, but there is also a case where the centre spun with the
rim staying still. (3)

The inconsistency has bothered nobody, but it seems like it
should. The natural assumption concerning the spinning of
saucers is that it would be necessary for their propulsion. Yet
most saucer reports don't show evidence of spinning. A
non-spinning saucer would probably be more useful. It is hard to
imagine anybody functioning very well in a spinning saucer. The
prospect of aliens emerging from a saucer disoriented and puking
their guts out veers into the area of slapstick and visceral
disbelief. Yet if saucers can propel themselves and function
without spinning, why should any of them spin? What purpose is
served in those that do spin?

The idea that saucers spin did not originate directly from the
Kenneth Arnold report. Arnold's report shows a bilaterally
symmetrical craft that travels in the direction of the axis of
symmetry. He mentions nothing about them spinning. The news
stories about his sighting erred in calling the objects saucers,
but did not compound it with any talk about spinning. They
travelled very fast, waved in and out of formation, and were on
a course between Mount Rainier and Mount Adams. This last
suggested a horizontal trajectory.

Despite this, reports of spinning saucers turn up immediately
and repeatedly in the reports of the 1947 Wave. There are at
least 37 cases of people describing spinning, whirling, or
twirling saucers among the 853 reports collected by Ted
Bloecher. (4) There is good reason to believe that there was
probably no imitation involved in this. They seem randomly
distributed across the nation and are all minor cases with local
news dissemination. Percentage-wise we are dealing with 4% of
the reports. It is easy to guess why they arose. It seems an
elementary elaboration inherent in our conception of the
behaviour of round objects such as saucers and discs. When a
person flings a plate or saucer into the air, you usually give
it a spin so it travels farther. Round objects often possess the
property of spinning: wheels spin, records spin, balls spin. It
seems a natural generalisation and probably an inevitability in
a population of UFO reports.

The paradox that spinning brings to saucers as intelligently
piloted craft only emerges on conscious reflection. It took
about two and a half years before a report turned up that
resolved this paradox by having a craft that has the pilot in a
stationary centre cabin while the outer rim moves. On 15 March
1950 Dr Craig Hunter, near Penfield, Pennsylvania, has a close
encounter with a "radical new warplane". Though it has a slowly
spinning ring visible on the underside, the centre cabin and
outer edge are stationary. Critics noted the drawing was
suspiciously similar to a drawing in a speculative article on
saucer propulsion by Commander Robert B. McLaughlin for True.
Hunter denied seeing the True article and this need not be
untrue. (5) From the vantage of decades later, one can, however,
say the two creations share the look of their era.

Craft identical to Hunter's and McLaughlin's simply don't appear
today. The idea of the stationary cabin, however, made good
sense and is a property of UFOs that recurrently turns up
afterwards on UFOs of different styles.

A flashier elaboration on the idea of spinning saucers combined
the spinning with a common presumption of the era that jets or
rockets propelled saucers. In this variant the jets generate the
spinning with exhaust flames swirling out of the rim of the
craft like a pinwheel. This form did not appear during the 1947
Wave. There were at least two dozen cases of saucers with jet or
rocket flames in that wave, but they were associated with
straight-line flight and never when the property of spinning was
mentioned. The earliest report of a pinwheel saucer came out of
Russia some time in 1949. We only know of it because someone dug
it out of the Blue Book files. A German POW told US military
intelligence of his being in Dnepropetrovsk SSR and seeing large
disc-shaped missiles that were black in the centre but glowed
red to white hot as one goes out along the radius. Out of the
rim came sparks. (6)

The idea of jet-propelled rims does not become popular until
1952 and wide dissemination of news of the crash of a
Soviet-made saucer on Spitzbergen. In the 28 June account, it
was revealed the craft had a stationary cabin and a rotating rim
having 46 jets on it. This craft was felt to be Russian since
the chronometers and interior instrumentation had Russian
symbols on them. On 9 July 1952 the Oscar Linke report of an
encounter near Germany's Russian Zone emerges. The refugee mayor
saw figures in parkas rush to a saucer that took off vertically.
"From the swirling effect of the glowing exhaust I got the
impression the whole thing was spinning like a top." (7) On 26
August 1952 Herbert Long and two girls from Kutztown,
Pennsylvania also report seeing a large saucer that swished
skyward at a tremendous speed. There is a drawing by an artist
displaying the pinwheeling effect. (8) Three days later, 29
August, comes the once strongly touted Villacoublay case
involving military personnel who described a violet disc from
which irregular trails spurted out that twisted like a whiplash.
(9) The next year, blueprints appeared in The Aeroplane for a
saucer with a stationary cabin and 4 jets pinwheeling along the
edge. (10) Jacques Vallee would showcase other pinwheeling UFO
cases in his early writings, notably the Marignane story of 27
October 1952 and the Frederick Moreland case of 13 July 1959.
(11)

One case I find particularly interesting from a psychosocial
perspective wasn't investigated until 1982, but originally took
place in October 1963 at Millersport, Ohio. It is a
multiple-witness case and several drawings were made by the
people involved. Glenna Parkinson's drawing imperfectly, but
unmistakably, resembles Herbert Long's saucer by having rim
flames, a broad bell-jar dome, and a broad antenna. The other
three witnesses provide substantially different drawings. Most
notably, none of the others drew pinwheeling flames. Here the
elaborative effect of cultural set on perception is nakedly
demonstrated. (12)

Pinwheeling saucers constituted at most a minor strand in the
UFO mythos and have pretty much vanished with the diminishing
credibility of the secret weapons theory.

Rocket and jet propulsion as a means of moving saucers is
thoroughly out of fashion. The parallel or competing tradition
of saucers propelled by magnetic drives was more evocative of
alien forces and has showed staying power due to the cultural
success of the ETH. (13) The Spitzbergen and Linke cases
probably bear the most responsibility for the recurrent
character of pinwheeling saucers due to their wide publicity.
Though Linke is largely forgotten these days, his report not
only appeared nationally in the newspapers but also was included
in the first UFO documentary, a short film by Telenews titled
The Flying Saucer Mystery.

Linke was pretty clearly responsible for another strand of the
UFO mythos. When it begins to take off the rim starts to move
upward before the stationary cabin and the craft takes on a
mushroom configuration. This very odd innovation may have been
inspired by the nuclear imagery of the era, i.e. the mushroom
clouds created by atomic bombs. There seems little doubt it
served as the inspiration for the madly spinning Ray Harryhausen
saucers of Earth vs. the Flying Saucers (1956). The pinwheeling
flames are absent. This is an alien saucer and the propulsion
has to be magnetic to make their defeat by the scientists in the
film possible. The mushroom launch configuration is prominent in
several key scenes. It is visually startling, but ingenious in
conception. The stationary stalk allows humans and entities to
enter the saucer while, so to speak, keeping the motor running.
The pilots don't have to waste time slowing the saucer down and
then speeding it up again. The rapid take-off capability is a
definite plus for a craft that must do battle at the climax. The
spinning in flight and gyrational instability they show when
attacked gives them a very animated appearance and is visually
giddy.

This mushroom configuration has recurred in a string of cases:
Pajasblancas Airport, Argentina - 1 May 1957; (14) Rio Pardo,
Brazil - June 1959; San Casciana, Italy - 10 April 1962; the
Mount Etna contact of 30 April 1962 by famed Italian contactee
Eugenio Siragusa; Chanaral, Chile - 19 July 1965; (15) Erie,
Presque-Ile Park, Pennsylvania CE3K - 31 July 1966; (16) a
series of Brazilian cases near Belo Horizonte and La Baleia in
August and September 1967; (17) Boyup Brook, Australia - 30
October 1967. (18) In a Linstead, Maryland case three witnesses
saw and many more heard a mushroom-shaped craft that had snow
swirling under it. (19) As recently as December 1990 Robert
Simpson, walking on a beach in India, saw a "a spaceship of some
origin" hanging in the sky with a generally similar mushroom
configuration. (20) Though ufologists are intrigued that people
in such diverse locales report such similar craft, I am more
impressed with the fact that these cases lack the pinwheeling
flames of the original Linke case. The international
distribution of the 1956 Harryhausen film seems to be the proper
deduction of this spread of mushroom saucers.

I must deal here with a claim by Larry Robinson. In "Behind the
UFO Scenes" he writes:

Disk shaped UFOs were not generally reported to spin until after
the movie Earth vs. the Flying Saucers showed spinning disks.
Before that, most disks flew with propulsion from exhaust ports
located on the back of the disk, and vertical fins, as seen in
The Thing." He parenthetically adds: "Of course, this was about
the time advertising planes made their debut, with the spinning
saucer illusion at a distance.

It has already been demonstrated here that there was a fair
number of spinning saucer cases already in 1947 and some in
subsequent years were rather prominently reported. Told of this
he elaborates:

My observation was that rotating saucers were a minority before
the movie was released, but afterwards they were the majority. I
have The UFO Evidence which contains some rotating saucer
reports from the 1947 wave but they were in the minority then.
(21)

To my knowledge, spinning never reached a level in any period
where it could be called a majority as claimed by Robinson. As a
brief test, I spent an hour looking through Hall's The UFO
Evidence and found only one case post-film with rotation (p. 32:
10/7/62) and 4 pre-film (8/7/47, 22/7/52, 19/9/52, 29/12/52)
with rotation or spinning. Most of the hundred or so I looked at
give no relevant details and a few dozen were post-film. So the
percentages of spinning saucer cases in both periods are in
single-digit territory and not even close to a majority.

A fin much like that in The Thing appears in a 20 March 1950
case (case X in the collection of 12 drawings used in Battelle's
Special Study No. 14). (22) But The Thing opened in April 1951.
None of the other cases in that study had fins. Two had rear
exhaust and one had jets on the side with exhaust directed
backwards. "Most" had neither fins nor exhaust. Case VII (6 June
1952) displayed spinning.

It must also be said that spinning saucers made their debut in
cinema in the Flash Gordon serial in 1938. One sequence of a
madly spinning saucer appears in the Bruce Gentry serial of 1949
and this effects clip is recycled into the Atom Man vs. Superman
(1950) and Blackhawk (1952) serials. The Devil Girl from Mars's
top-like spacecraft with a rim that whirls and whines like a jet
turbine also beats Harryhausen's whirligigs to the screen by a
year. Though some effect on the percentages of spinning saucers
by Harryhausen's imagery is plausible, it has not been
demonstrated and the effect would be less than turning a rarity
into a majority.

The variety of cinematic saucer kinematics has its own
fascinations. The flying craft of The Mysterians (1957) do not
spin, but their Earth base is shaped like a bell jar with a rim
that spins massively up and down through the ground. In Warning
from Space (1956/1963) a saucer lifting up on vertical flames
creates a strong whirlpool around it even though the craft
itself is not spinning. In Battle of the Worlds (1963) the
saucers are unmanned and spin very rapidly. The saucer craft in
Lost in Space and The Invaders have lights that sequentially
suggest spinning, but the craft do not actually spin. Gammera
the Invincible (1966) is a gigantic spinning turtle that
pinwheels flame out of its leg-holes. Zontar (1968) shows us a
saucer with a slower spin rate. When we get to Close Encounters
of the Third Kind (1977) the rotations are so slow they barely
rate the word spin anymore. The craft in the finale of Starman
(1984) has a rim that slowly revolves. The saucer masquerading
as a restaurant in Doin' Time on Planet Earth (1988) gets up a
spin-rate comically large enough to put its restaurant identity
in doubt, but never reaches gyration rates like those in the
fifties. Modern saucers live a more sedate life than they had
back then. (23) As a group, non-spinning saucers outnumber
spinning saucers by a ratio of at least 2 to 1. Viewed from
underneath, the saucers from cinema prefer counter-clockwise
rotation, but not universally. I did not find any instance of
counter-rotation in my set of videos, though whether this is
because there aren't any or my collection is less than complete
I can't say. Such kinematic mirroring as does exist, I suspect,
is a working out of psychological biases shared by film-makers,
UFO reporters, and humans generally more than imitation. The
recurrent character of pinwheeling and mushroom saucers was a
different matter since their somewhat higher conceptual
complexity and their distribution over time seems to point to
imitation.

Should saucers spin? There's no reason they should not if many
or all are in some sense products of human imagination. The
puking alien or the technical challenge of marrying immobile
cabin to spinning body is rendered irrelevant. How might ETH
defenders patch over this difficulty? Take one. The spinning
saucers are instrumental craft that are unmanned. But what can
be done with a spinning instrumental device? Spy devices would
favour a stable platform. Atmospheric sampling can be done more
simply by toy-sized planes, rockets, balloons, etc. Take two.
We've always granted a certain percentage of UFO cases are IFOs.
All rational ufologists reject Spitzbergen as a hoax. Maybe
these are all just IFOs - we still have our classics and none of
them spin, do they? But do the spinning cases really seem any
less evidential than the non-spinning ones? Linke's report
involved multiple witnesses and alleged physical traces, and
would rate better than many classics were it not for the fact
that it supports the Russian secret weapon theory that
ufologists have rejected. (24) Villacoublay involved military
people. Vallee showcased examples in Challenge to Science.
Supporting evidence offered by Coral Lorenzen for the validity
of the Trindade photographs includes a report of the identically
sounding greenish-glowing enringed spheroid being over the same
island a few days before it was photographed. It includes the
detail: "The ring appeared to be rotating at high speed." (25) I
don't know of any photographic case more defended than this one
and it is surely a classic. This strategy thus has problems.
Take three. Aliens are weird and... Cut. We know the government
tries to make the UFO phenomenon look ridiculous... CUT.

It's enough to make a ufologist's head spin.

References
1. Benson, Thomas. "Findings Related to the Abduction Experience
    from a Database on UFO Understructures" in Pritchard, Andrea,
    et. al. Alien Discussions: Proceedings of the Abduction Study
    Conference held at MIT, Cambridge, MA, North Cambridge Press,
    1994, 160-165
2. Ibid.
3. Bullard, Thomas. UFO Abductions: The Measure of a Mystery,
    Fund for UFO Research, 1987, 202
4. Bloecher, Ted. Report on the UFO Wave of 1947, author, 1967

5. Gross, Loren. UFOs: A History: 1950: January-March, author,
    1983, 52-54
6. Gross, Loren. UFOs: A History: Volume 2: 1949, author, 1982,
    section 2, 47
7. Kottmeyer, Martin. "Missing Linke", Promises and
    Disappointments, 3/4, 17-20
8. Girard, Robert. An Early UFO Scrapbook, Arcturus Book
    Service, 1989, 127
9. Michel, Aime. The Truth about Flying Saucers, Pyramid, 1967,
    179-185, 226-228
10. Girard, op. cit., 146-147

11. Vallee, Jacques and Janine. Challenge to Science, Ace Books,
     1966, 28-30, 75-76
12. Seigfried, Richard D. "Multiple Witness Sighting of
     Structured UFO", MUFON UFO Journal, l73, July 1982, 11-12
13. "Magnetic Drives" and "Conflicting Drives", unpublished
     files
14. Magonia catalogue, No. 393
15. Magonia catalogue, No. 658
16. Magonia catalogue, No. 784
17. Aleixo, Hulvio B. "Humanoid Encountered at La Baleia",
     Flying Saucer Review, 14, 6, November-December 1968, 8-11, 20
18. Magonia catalogue, No. 893
19. Magonia catalogue, No. 819
20. Simpson, Robert E. "Missing Time in India", UFO Universe,
     Fall 1992, 39
21. http://php.indiana.edu/~lrobins/ufopage.htm
22. See Brad Steiger's Project Blue Book, 161, or Ron Story's
     encyclopedia under Battelle.
23. Kottmeyer, Martin. "Blazing Saucers", The Skeptic, 10, 2,
     1996, 8-12
24. "Missing Linke", op. cit.
25. Lorenzen, Coral E. Flying Saucers: The Startling Evidence of
     the Invasion from Outer Space, Signet, 1966, 173

MAGONIA Monthly Supplement. Letters and short articles welcome.
Letters will be considered for publication unless otherwise
indicated. Please send all contributions to the Editor: John
Harney - harney@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk

ETH Bulletin / MMS index








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                              Earth Lights Site

From: Kelly <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:33:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 06:50:33 -0500
Subject: Earth Lights Site


From: Sean Palmer <earth_lights@yahoo.co.uk>

Dear Sir,

I run a 'paranormal' page about earth lights that you
may be interested in at:

http://www.earthlights.tsx.org

or

http://homes.arealcity.com/earthlights/earthlights.html

if the tsx address doesn't work.

I read the article on earth lights at www.forteantimes.com and
thought I could contribute my own reaserach on this subject to
the public. Hope you like the site!

Yours Faithfully,

Mr. Sean B. Palmer

daev

________________________________
Dave Walsh, Blatherskite *extra ordinem*
          http://www.blather.net
      Paranormal Agent Provocateurism
________________________________
'A country without village idiots is not worth living in.
Without them there is no way of knowing who are sane.'
- Oliver St. Gogarty, *As I Was Going Down Sackville St.*
________________________________









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                           No Cheat Sheets Allowed

From: Kelly McGillis <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:55:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 06:54:36 -0500
Subject: No Cheat Sheets Allowed


http://www.caus.org/pn013100.htm

Campaign 2000 - Get Out the Questions

"Washington, DC - Public awareness of UFO/ET phenomena and
government suppression of the facts behind them has never been
greater. During the 2000 campaign season, national office
candidates and incumbents should prepare themselves to receive
tough questions from their constituents." From an X-PPAC
Congressional Alert sent to all home and DC offices of the House
and Senate members.

For the next 10 months, people seeking national office will be
speaking and debating across the country. They want your vote.
You have the right and the obligation to ask them about any
issue you see fit. If that issue is controversial, all the
better.

The American electorate has always had the power at its disposal
to bring the implications of UFO/ET issue directly to our
political leadership. The power resides in the microphones
present at every debate, speech, and town hall meeting. Confront
them with key questions on the issue. If they choose not to
answer, or laugh the question aside, or even laugh at you, be
assured the only person in the auditorium who should be
embarrassed is the candidate. They want to serve you, they want
your vote - therefore they had better be prepared to answer your
questions.

Below are examples of questions you might copy into your word
processor and take with you to the next political forum. They
are direct, grounded and supportable. They all have one thing in
common - even if the candidate refuses to respond, the question
itself will inform the public and media present who hear it.

These questions, and others like them will be posted at various
websites. Look for them. Over the year, more will be added. If
you have an idea for a question, it is welcome. Contact X-PPAC.

UFO/ET Related Questions w/ Follow-ups for the National
Candidates

Are you aware of the allegations of career Army intelligence
officer, the late Col. Philip J. Corso, in his 1997 memoir, The
Day After Roswell, confirming an extraterrestrial presence and
government cover-up of this fact?

If no, given the significance of these allegations, should you
not be aware?

If yes, why hasn't the Joint Chiefs, Army, Congress or Executive
Branch responded to both the book and Col. Corso's public
statements in 1997 and 1998?

Are you aware of the public statements of former Apollo
Astronaut, Dr. Edgar Mitchell, that active and retired
government and military personnel of stature have confirmed to
him the extraterrestrial nature of the 1947 Roswell, New Mexico
event, and that a kind of "second government" is maintaining a
cover-up of the facts regarding an extraterrestrial presence in
our world?

If no, given that Edgar Mitchell is a distinguished American
with an MIT PhD and a member of the exclusive group of NASA
astronauts who walked on the moon, should you not be aware?

If yes, why hasn't NASA, the Congress or the Executive Branch of
our government thoroughly and properly responded to these
allegations?

Are you aware of a national movement to hold open,
comprehensive, Congressional hearings specifically to take
testimony from 100+ active and retired government, military and
agency personnel speaking directly to the UFO/ET phenomena issue
and a government cover-up of the facts?

If no, is this not a matter sufficiently important to warrant
such hearings?

If yes, do you support full and open hearings for such
testimony?

Are you aware of briefings provided to President Clinton on
UFO/ET issues by Laurence Rockefeller as well as UFO/ET
briefings provided by others to high level administration
officials between 1993 and 1998? Our government claims the
UFO/ET matter is of no consequence. If so, why would such
briefings have taken place?

Would it concern you if any intelligence agency deliberately
chose not to brief any sitting President or appropriate members
of the House and Senate on the full extent of UFO/ET phenomena?

Are you aware of the 1999 French COMETA report in which former
high-level members of the French government state that the
reality of UFOs being extraterrestrial craft is likely?

Are you aware of the 1998 Sturrock Panel report from the Society
of Scientific Exploration, which states that UFO phenomena
should be reevaluated and reinvestigated?

Are you aware that a group of reputable scientists, the Society
for Planetary SETI Research, has made a powerful case for
artificial structures on the planet Mars?

Would it trouble you that our civilian space agency, NASA, has
for years resisted properly addressing the evidence developed by
this group and others?

Are you aware or concerned that NASA, our civilian space agency, has
been accused of involvement in black budget projects, and steadfastly
refuses to aggressively investigate evidence pointing at
extraterrestrial phenomena?

If you are a candidate for national office, can you afford to be
uninformed on these issues? If you are a citizen assisting a
candidate, you can help. Resources are available, including
meetings with principals, that would enable a candidate or
incumbent to answer questions such as those above. Contact
X-PPAC.

A special note about videotaping. If you are following the local
and national debates on television, consider keeping a blank
tape in your VCR at all times. If you notice a UFO/ET question
being asked of a candidate, TAPE IT and contact X-PPAC.
Arrangements will be made to get a copy for an archive of
on-camera responses to these questions. Such an archive will be
invaluable in the lobbying efforts. Thanks.









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                Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes

From: Stephen Miles Lewis <elfis@austin.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:12:26 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 07:08:36 -0500
Subject: Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes


 >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:45:17 -0500
 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
 >Subject: Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >Let's note that these pop-culture explanations of abductions are
 >unfalsifiable. If I say that the abductees in this case claim
 >not to have seen or read "Communion," Kottmeyer could reply that
 >they're lying, or that they'd forgotten, or that the imagery
 >reached them in various ways even if they didn't see the movie
 >or read the book. And I could never prove he's wrong.

 >But if the hypothesis isn't falsifiable, then, by common
 >scientific standards, it's not provable, either. Kottmeyer, and
 >now Bob Young, need to think things through more carefully.
 >Young, for instance, needs to grant the possibility that
 >three-fingered aliens with suction cups could appear in science
 >fiction, and also in reality. He then needs to figure out a test
 >of his hypothesis -- a way that we could demonstrate either than
 >the abduction image comes from science fiction, or that it
 >doesn't. If, instead, he simply insists that if the image was in
 >science fiction, any abduction report with the same image was
 >influenced by the science fiction, nobody can ever prove him
 >wrong -- which, as I've said, also means that nobody can ever
 >prove him right.

 >Greg Sandow

Greg, List, All,

I will again try to bring the forum's attention to a little
discussed possible way of testing exactly this issue of whether
a witness has seen a sci fi image.

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m24-005.shtml

Where I said and posted ...

OK - so on the subject of determining whether someone has seen a
pop culture image...

Previously different UFO UpDaters had suggested calling upon
Forensics for help in investigating reports of alien abduction.

Did anyone of you list members out there catch the New
Detectives show on Discovery Channel?

It featured Dr. Lawrence Farwell PhD who has developed eeg style
brain wave activity software which "recognizes" the brain's
unique signature response to "recognized" images stored in the
brain as 'memory'.

This technology, if proven reliable, could be used in a number
of different approaches to the study of ufo close encounter
investigations.

I've not found a web page for him or his work but have found
these refs below:

http://truth.idbsu.edu/polygraph/Farwell.html

this site details his in court testimony, however, the court saw
fit to not accept his testimony as valid.

See also:

http://truth.idbsu.edu/polygraph/polylaw.html

and the Journal of Credibility Assessment & Witness Psychology:

http://truth.idbsu.edu/jcaawp/default.html

or you can buy an article on the subject here:

http://www.indigo-net.com/IOL/Sommaires/int93/int220.htm

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ren_productions/apr1997.htm#4

Computerized Brain-Scan Technology

A new forensic tool developed by Lawrence A. Farwell, Ph.D.,
President of Human Brain Research Laboratory, Inc., Burke,
Virginia, shows great promise in the identification of criminals
and those who fail to tell the truth. Government and security
professionals may someday make use of this technology to verify
the identity of authorized employees, job applicants, emigrants
and known government agents.

Although fingerprints and DNA matching are extremely accurate
methods used by law enforcement professionals in the
identification of suspects, accurate, usable samples are not
always available when they are needed. In addition,
uncontaminated DNA samples are only available in 2% of criminal
cases where DNA processing is permitted.

Farwell�s Brain Fingerprinting technique is based on what
suspects and subjects �know� to be the absolute true. This is
because Brain Fingerprinting relies on the memory of the suspect
and their response to questions asked and/or pictures shown to
them on a computer monitor. Their brain response to these images
is what verifies what they know to be true. For example, a
number of suspects were connected to a computer via a series of
sensors embedded in a head piece that is placed on their heads.
As a series of words, phrases and/or pictures are flashed across
a screen of a monitor, the computer measures the suspect�s
immediate, unhesitating mental response to each stimuli. The
responses are then retained, processed and mapped within the
computer. A report is then printed out and/or displayed on the
computer monitor for the test administrator to view.

Using the Farwell Brain Fingerprinting method in a murder
investigation, the test administrator might show a picture of
the murder weapon, the victim or the crime scene, mixed among
other unrelated images, to each suspect via a computer monitor.
Each suspect�s electrical brain response would then be measured
and recorded as each image is presented. If their response
suddenly changes for one or more of the images, their response
is noted. Because the immediate mental response of the suspect
is involuntary, the suspect cannot consciously prevent their
initial reaction. This then either confirms or disproves that
the subject had anything to do with the murder.

---
SMiles
---







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                Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 01:59:35 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 07:11:45 -0500
Subject: Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes


 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
 >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:45:17 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:45:40 -0500
 >Subject: Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes

 >Let's note that these pop-culture explanations of abductions are
 >unfalsifiable. If I say that the abductees in this case claim
 >not to have seen or read "Communion," Kottmeyer could reply that
 >they're lying

But he didn't claim this

 >or that they'd forgotten, or that the imageryreached them in
 >various ways even if they didn't see the movie or read the book.

He didn't claim this, either

<snip>

 >Young, for instance, needs to grant the possibility that
 >three-fingered aliens with suction cups could appear in science
 >fiction, and also in reality.

Oh, I'm being held to a standard of Unfalsifiable Hypotheses, but
you only have to deal in possibilities?  Sorry, Greg, you can't
have your cake and eat it, too, unless of course you are trying
to sweep this ufological secret evidence under the carpet.

 >He then needs to figure out a test of his hypothesis --
 >a way that we could demonstrate either than the abduction
 >image comes from science fiction, or that it doesn't.

OK, let's match up two hypotheses, yours and mine.  First, mine:
There are popular 20th Century science fiction tales with
three-fingured, suction cupped aliens from other worlds who come
to the Earth in spaceships, and there are similar reports from
abduction witnesses.  My hypothesis is false if there are no
such tales either in S-F or ufology. Discussion: See John
Carpenter's article about the double abduction and my letter
cited in the previous post for published examples.

Now, yours: There are reports from abduction witnesses of
three-fingured, suction cupped aliens in spaceships from other
worlds, but there are also three-fingured aliens with suction
cups in spaceships from other worlds.  This hypothesis is false
if either of these two propositions is not proven.

Your evidence?

Cleas skies,

Bob Young









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                Re: Recent UFO Sightings Lack Credibility...

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:51:30 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 07:13:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Recent UFO Sightings Lack Credibility...


 >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 05:41:28 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Recent UFO Sightings Lack Credibility...
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >Dear Mike:

 >Sorry! I must have mis-keyed and deleted your earlier more
 >detailed posts.

 >I just checked, and I have no sightings in that time and place.
 >I have only one Kentucky sighting for 1967, but its back at the
 >beginning of the year.

 >Kentucky has one of the lowest sightings counts of all states in
 >my data for some reason.

Grin... tell me about it Larry. I have had to deal with that
statistic for many years now.

There are scattered sightings from time to time across the
state, but nothing major since the Louisville Police Helicopter
sighting of a few years ago.

I always seem to be a day late and a dollar short in being where
those sighting occurr. <G>

Take care.

REgards, Mike

  Download ICQ at http://www.icq.com/
  ICQ#:7508455
  BBS: (270) 683-3026
  Fax: (270) 686-7394
  Home: (270) 683-6811
         ---








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             Top Events Goes Into Liquidation - What A Surprise

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 10:55:14 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 07:43:29 -0500
Subject: Top Events Goes Into Liquidation - What A Surprise


Dear All,

It will come as no surprise that Roy Bird has failed to pay his
CVA and thus his company 'Top Events and Publications Ltd'
[publishers of Quest Magazine & Modern Astronomer in the UK--ebk]
has gone into liquidation. This action was taken by P & O.

I have received a letter today from Hacker Young and Partners
which states the following:

Dear Sirs,

TOP EVENTS AND PUBLICATIONS LTD COMPANY VOLUNTARY ARRANGEMENT
HIGH COURT NO 1540 OF l999.

I wa appointed supervisor inb respect of the company on (
November l999. I now have to advise you that the voluntary
arrangement has failed due to non-compliance per the attached
notices.

WINDING UP PETITION.

P & O Exhibition Servicesw presented a Winding Up petition. At
an adjourned hearing in the High Court on 26 January 2000. An
order was made to place the company into compulsory liquidation.
It was held that P & O were not bound by the CVA. They had been
omitted from the list of creditors by the director due to the
disputed nature of the debt.

RECEIPTS AND PAYMENTS.

During the period of my appointment as supervisor I have had no
receipts and made no payments.

CONTRIBUTIONS.

No contributions have been received from the company as required
by the terms of the proposals. Mr Bird has advised us that he
has had to recive hos[ital treatment and consequently he has
been unable to dseal with company metters as much as he would
wish due to his medical condition.

CREDITORS.

Out of 193 creditors 61 claims have been received, 36 of which
have been agreed.

FEES.

My time costs in dealing with the administration of this case
including the nominee's fee are �22.800.30 in respect of 26
hours. There have beenm numerous complex issues to deal with
which have involved long discussions and exchanges of
correspondence with creditors and legal advisers. There are no
realisations available to contribute to these costs.

MEETING OF CREDITORS.

the official receiver in Chester has advised me that following
the liquidation of the company he will now be calling a meeting
of creditors to appoint a liquidator. I am cooperating fully
with the official receiver and have provided him with the
information he has requested. I believe it is important that a
liquidator is appointed as soon as possible to deal with the
realisation of assets for the benefit of all creditors. If
creditors so wish I shall be prepared to act as liquidator.

I trust this report is sufficient for your purposes, should you
require any fgurther information, please do not hesitate to
contact myself or Tracy Palmer-Baker of this office.

Yours Faithfully,

REC Cook.
Supervisor.

ATTACHED.


TOP EVENTS AND PUBLICATIONS LIMITED
VOLUNTARY ARRANGEMENT.

COMPANY VOLUNTARY ARRANGEMENT NUMBER 1540 OF l999.

THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
CHANCERY DIVISION
MANCHESTER DISTRICT REGISYTRY

CERTIFICATE OF NON-COMPLIANCE OF VOLUNTARY ARRANGEMENT

I, Robert Edward Caunce Cook certify that Top Events and Publications
Limited (the company) has not complied with  the terms of its voluntary
arrangement, which was approved by creditors on 9 November l999.

The failure has resulted from non-comnpliance with the
following:

The company is one month in arrears of monthly contributions to
be paid to the supervisor as set out in clause 4 in the
proposals of the voluntary arrangement. In light of the winding
up order made on 26 January 2000, the company will be unable to
make any monthly contributions in the future.

Dated: 26.1.2000.

REC COOK.
Supervisor.

So there you have it. I have to say 'I told you so' but 'I told
you so'. I did encourage people to vote against the CVA as I was
sure that Roy Bird had no intention of paying anything to
anyone. He has not even paid the solicitor.

In the meantime, he continues to trade under another company, he
has published yet more magazines, and was even buying a printing
press. If you believe that bull about not being able to pay up
as he had been in hospital then you'll believe anything.

So, Roy Bird gets off scott-free and all those poor buggers who
he owes money to, myself included, will get absolutely nothing.
I dare say its not strictly illigal what Mr Bird has done, but
it certainly is immoral. How he can sleep at night I don't know.

The sadest thing about this whole affair is that he is
continuing in business and you can bet that even more people
will end up not getting paid. Surely the police can do something
?

Regards,

Philip Mantle.

PLEASE RE-POST THIS MESSAGE FAR AND WIDE AND TO ANYONE ELSE THAT HAS
FALLEN AFOWL OF ROY BIRD.








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                           Request E-mail Address?

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@powerup.com.au>
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 23:11:35 +1100
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 13:15:53 -0500
Subject: Request E-mail Address?


Hi Everyone

I would like to get intouch with Travis Walton Author of Fire in
the Sky.

Would anyone have his e-mail address please

Regards Diane Harrison

Director Of The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
Co Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE KEITH BASTERFIELD NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: tkbnetw@powerup.com.au
E-mail: ufologist@powerup.com.au
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb760221

ADMINISTRATION:

THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

PO Box 805
Springwood  Qld  4127
Australia
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number
          1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Disclaimer: The Keith Basterfield List Owners are not
responsible for the content or misuse of this list.
However, personal insults, flaming will not be tolerated.
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>








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                Re: Recent UFO Sightings Lack Credibility...

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 05:54:45 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 13:14:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Recent UFO Sightings Lack Credibility...


 >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:42:43 -0300
 >From: Donald Ledgerd <ledger@ns.sympatico.ca ()>
 >Subject: Re: Recent UFO Sightings Lack Credibility...
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >Hi Mike,

 >Just a couple of things. You probably meant a B-58 Hustler and
 >they were extremely noisey, for those who have never heard one.

 >Don Ledger

Hi Don...


Yes, you are correct.  I mistyped that.  B-58 Hustler Bomber. <G>

Very noisey.

Thanks.

REgards, Mike

  Download ICQ at http://www.icq.com/
  ICQ#:7508455
  BBS: (270) 683-3026
  Fax: (270) 686-7394
  Home: (270) 683-6811
         ---








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                          BBC 'Watchdog' & Roy Bird

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 14:31:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 13:19:04 -0500
Subject: BBC 'Watchdog' & Roy Bird

Dear All,

I think that some drastic action against Mr Rpy Bird may well be
necessary. The police and local authorities seem powerless to
act. I have therefore contacted the BBC's 'WATCHDOG' programme
and I am urging all those who have fallen foul of Roy Bird to do
exactly the same. If enough of you send them an e-mail message
then they might just taken an interest.

You can e-mail them at: watchdog@bb.co.uk

Tell them everything you can and make sure that you all mention
Roy Bird by name. It might be useful to title all of your
messages with the same 'ROY BIRD'. It might just then attract
their attention.

Good luck.

Philip.

PS.

Please forward this message onto anyone else that has had a bad
experience with Roy Bird.









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                      TMP News: News Briefing - 2.1.00

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 06:43:49 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 13:22:52 -0500
Subject: TMP News: News Briefing - 2.1.00


TMP NEWS
The E-News Service of The Millennium Project

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

February 1, 2000

_____________________________



NEWS BRIEFING
2.1.00



QUANTA
Science and Technology

New Mars Meteorite Found
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/marsmeteorite.html

Latest Attempt to Receive Signal from Mars Lander Fails
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/marssignal.html

Study Shows People Have Little Memory of Rotating Objects
http://unisci.com/stories/20001/0131004.htm



EXOTICA
Unexplained Phenomena and Forteana

Should Saucers Spin?
http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/ethbull/mms23.html

_____________________________


TMP News is the electronic news service of The Millennium
Project, providing daily news briefings (summarized listings) of
the latest relevant news stories and reports, as well as
periodic information and updates on major breaking news stories
and TMP-related news and events. TMP News is edited by Paul
Anderson and published by TMP, and is available free by
subscription; to be added to or removed from the mailing list,
send your request, including "subscribe TMP News" or
"unsubscribe TMP News" and e-mail address to:

psa@direct.ca

For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all
correspondence to:

THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC   V6J 1J4   Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

_____________________________


� The Millennium Project, 2000









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                    'Exposure Magazine' Oz Changes Hands

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@powerup.com.au>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 01:12:58 +1100
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 13:28:51 -0500
Subject: 'Exposure Magazine' Oz Changes Hands


[This text has been removed by request of one of the subjects.
-- Glenn Campbell, Feb. 16, 2001]





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                  60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 12:34:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 13:31:40 -0500
Subject: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes


 >Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 01:59:35 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Oh, I'm being held to a standard of Unfalsifiable Hypotheses, but
 >you only have to deal in possibilities?  Sorry, Greg, you can't
 >have your cake and eat it, too, unless of course you are trying
 >to sweep this ufological secret evidence under the carpet.

Nope, any hypothesis I make is subject to the same rules.

 >>He then needs to figure out a test of his hypothesis --
 >>a way that we could demonstrate either than the abduction
 >>image comes from science fiction, or that it doesn't.

 >OK, let's match up two hypotheses, yours and mine.  First, mine:
 >There are popular 20th Century science fiction tales with
 >three-fingured, suction cupped aliens from other worlds who
come
 >to the Earth in spaceships, and there are similar reports from
 >abduction witnesses.

This isn't a hypothesis. It's an observation of facts. Nobody's
going to dispute the truth of it. Your hypothesis, which you're
not 'fessing up to, is that the abduction reports were
influenced by the science fiction stories.

 >My hypothesis is false if there are no
 >such tales either in S-F or ufology.

You haven't stated the conditions for falsifying your _real_
hypothesis.

 >Now, yours: There are reports from abduction witnesses of
 >three-fingured, suction cupped aliens in spaceships from other
 >worlds, but there are also three-fingured aliens with suction
 >cups in spaceships from other worlds.

I didn't make any such hypothesis. All I did was point out that
you didn't allow for this possibility (repeat, possibility --
not something I've said that I believe is true). You need to
find what Mark Cashman, in many posts here, has called
"discriminators" -- things that would be true if abduction
imagery was derived by science fiction, and would _not_ be true
if it was derived from real encounters with aliens. And, no, you
can't first ask for proof that the aliens are real. That would
be circular reasoning -- assuming the truth of your conclusion,
before you do any experiments, gathering of data, or thinking.

What are your discriminators?

Greg Sandow








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                          Re: Should Saucers Spin?

From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 12:41:17 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 13:35:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?


 >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:25:38 -0500
 >From: Kelly McGillis <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
 >Subject: Should Saucers Spin?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/ethbull/mms23.html

 >No. 23 January 2000

A most interesting piece about spinning saucers - fact or fiction.

In 1961 while viewing through binoculars, I, along with three
other witnesses, saw what appeared to be a "spinning" saucer.
Closer examination revealed the following phenomenon. Around the
perimeter of this unknown luminous aerial object (seen at night)
were a series of (we'll call them pipes) at the end of each was
a red light (or what passed for same). This light went on and
off sequentially around the perimeter of the object. Due to
persistence of vision it looked like the red light was moving
around the object. I have since read similar descriptions of
this phenomenon.

I was on a New York radio show in the past year or so and a
woman called in who saw a saucer within 10 miles of where I saw
the above object and within a similar time in history in 1961.
As I had not talked about my sighting, it was interesting to
hear what whe had to say in a credible manner. The object she
saw was at the height of a 10 story building (lower than what I
saw) and she could see it spinning and hear a spinning type
noise.

Further, in my still to be completed film - BEYOND THIS EARTH -
we have yet unreleased exclusive footage of a daylight disk from
Pennsylvania which appears to be spinning and emitting a variety
of colors as it does so.

None of this has been influenced from what has been shown in the
movies and in my opinion it is the observations of the public
which have been used to craft many images for films. Academy
Award winning director Roobert Wise, when interviewed by us for
BEYOND THIS EARTH, spoke about the making of "The Day the Earth
Stood Still" being influenced by real events. He said that the
design of the saucer was taken from information by eye witness
reports.

- Sam Sherman








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                   Re: Velez, Mortellaro, Humor, And Pain

From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 14:45:04 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 13:39:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Velez, Mortellaro, Humor, And Pain


 >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:52:55 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Velez, Mortellaro, Humor, And Pain
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:12:44 -0500
 >>From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >>Subject: Velez, Mortellaro, Humor, And Pain
 >>To: UFO UpDates list <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Hello, UFO-thinkers...

 >>I find myself agreeing with Mr. Velez' comments vis a vis Mr.
 >>Mortellaro's 'humor'. Now, Mr. Velez can certainly be
 >>obstreporous, and he often seems to have a chip on his shoulder
 >>the size of North Dakoka (although, in truth, if I'd been
 >>subject to one-tenth the ridicule and abuse he apparently has,
 >>I'd probably be a bit permanently ticked off, too.)

 >>But, Mr. Velez is up on his feet, dukes up, and he's fighting -
 >>and fighting mad. He wants to know what the _heck_ is going on.
 >>I won't take any position on whether, or what is/has happened to
 >>him (I have no way of knowing), but I do admire his fighting
 >>spirit, and his desire to know.

 >>But everytime I read anything from poor Mr. M, whether it's a
 >>"serious" letter or one of his "gripplings," I wince. The man is
 >>so clearly haunted, troubled, and in pain, his writings are
 >>literally painful to read. I agree that his attempts at humor
 >>are pathetic, pooorly timed, and unfunny -- painfully unfunny.
 >>And that is the key -- pain. I think Mr. Mortellaro needs some
 >>kind of help. I'm quite seriious. I worry about him. Whatever
 >>is/has happened to him seems to have broken his spirit. I'd sure
 >>hate for anything to befall him while everyone else is nattering
 >>away about whether or not the AA is a hoax.

 >>Purrrrs to all...
 >>wac

 >Dear Ms. W.A.C.;

 >Thank you for your post.  Poor timing has always been a problem
 >with me, however on different venues than the abduction
 >(perceived) scenario.  Whilst you are certainly entitled to your
 >opinion, as are all on this list, I would like to tell you the
 >truth as I know it to be.

 >First, the ridicule does not exist.  Oh, once in a while I make
 >someone unhappy and or uncomfortable, but that is expected when
 >humor is applied to a serious subject.  I swear to you though,
 >on line, the negativity is quite seldom seen.  Off line, the
 >overwhelming volume of mail is positive.  Usually, folks write
 >in to thank me for lightening up the atmosphere.  In his day,
 >the nutcase what wrote of Brobdignag and Lilliput was known as a
 >satirist. In our culture, people think it was a neat story. Some
 >of course think it was a lousy story.  Such is life and such is
 >taste - widely distributed.

 >Please, do not waste your time feeling sorry for me.  I am the
 >happiest little puppy you'll ever meet.  What I say in jest is
 >just that.  It's simple enough.  If you take the funny stuff
 >seriously, then you are missing out on a simple truth, that when
 >the subject matter gets to the point where I begin to find it
 >funny, I tear out of my cage and try to add a little levity.

 >Truth is, many do not find it amusing.  Perhaps it is not as
 >funny as I think it is.  Perhaps it is more so.  But whatever it
 >is, it is not meant to be pathetically received.  You are
 >supposed to laugh.

 >If one cannot do that, there are two most obvious and desirable
 >options, at least in my view.  The first is that little place on
 >your browser which allows you to kill the bastard before it
 >strikes. It usually says something like "Delete."

 >The second is to tell Docca Kanappy, as you have done in this
 >post, how you feel.  I allow for the judgment of the good Docca.
 >It's his list.  I am without portfolio when it comes to being
 >published or not.  I let him decide what is appropriate,
 >cathartic, inappropriate, pathetic or otherwise objectionable.
 >So far, I have not been aksed to refrain from humor.  Thus far,
 >I ain't been axed needer.

 >It is just satire.  Lighten up all of you who feel pathos.
 >Lighten up all who are so impressed with some of the status quo
 >in our field that a little nyuk nyuk annoys you into feeling
 >sorry.  I suggest applying your energies to people who really
 >need the help.

 >According to the four shrinks I've seen, the only bad things I
 >suffer from is impatience and a few ill-timed phobias.  See, my
 >philosophy in life is, if you cannot laugh at yourselves a
 >little, then the alternative really sucks big time.

 >The alternative to humor is to be constantly serious and never
 >be able to crack a smile.  That, in my opinion, is sick.  And to
 >anyone who feels that the attempt at humor which I make is ill
 >timed or inappropriate, think on this.  For many of you, it's
 >never appropriate.  For a few, it is inappropriate all the time
 >and brings down upon those whom you feel closest to, the wrath
 >of judgment.

 >I say no to that.  We are judged not by making fun at ourselves,
 >but by taking ourselves too seriously, including the asinine non
 >sense we all read, all too often. That's where we get bad raps.

 >So Docca K, if I am being a bad boy, ask me to go to my room.  I
 >shall stay there only on one condition. That is that I be
 >allowed to suck my thumb whilst in there.  I have ten fingers
 >divided evenly on two hands. I'll even let you decide which one
 >I should suck on.  I do prefer the middle one.  Somehow it just
 >... I dunno ... it just feels right, you know?


Hi again Jim,

Nice one about the middle finger, that's one gag I think we all
get ;)

Humour is such a strange thing isn't it? there has been more
than one time that the writers of sci-fi for example have
approached this from an alien/android or computers point of
view.

Data (Next gen) spent almost an entire episode trying to compute
the meaning of a stand up comedian.

I was told a joke the other day by a Tibetan, it concerned two
Yaks a bowl of rice and a long stick.

Never having lived in Tibet I just didn't get the punchline.

Imagine asking a grey "why did the chicken cross the road?" If
the answer was "To avoid the anal probe!" then he might smile
quietly to himself.

You have no worries from this side of the pond, I for one do not
feel sorry for you or think you are pathetic.

I may not always agree with your comments or understand your
humour but sometimes I do and it makes me laugh, (well smile
quietly to myself, I am British after all and therefore not
allowed to laugh out loud). But at the end of the day I always
read your mails, "another one from Jim, the Howard Stern of
Updates".

Keep 'em coming,

Dave.








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                             1909 Travel to Mars

From: Joaquim Fernandes <jfernan@esoterica.pt>
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 22:07:15 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 17:29:29 -0500
Subject: 1909 Travel to Mars


Dear list members,

I am in a deep research to my PhD dissertation on "The
Extraterrestrial Imaginary in the Portuguese Press - from Mars
to the UFO phenomena".

I got today an interesting clip news quoting a German scientific
magazine 'Die Zeit', which in 1909 published a text from a
millionaire named H. Ganswindt who tried to travel to Mars and
dedicated it to the Emperor William! I have a date - 24 August
1909 - probably of the original source not identified by the
paper I read.

Perhaps someone could initiate an investigation in german
librairies...

If anyone knows about this matter, I would apreciate any
comment.

Thank you for your help.

Joaquim Fernandes
University Fernando Pessoa
Porto
Portugal








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                  Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 18:16:55 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 17:38:48 -0500
Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip


 >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:57:58 -0600
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Steven W. Kaeser
 >>Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:56:17 -0500
 >>Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:50:45 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

 >Previously, I had offered the following regarding the
 >"containment suits" in AA:

<snipped to save others unnecessary boredom>

In a previous posting, John Velez mentioned that there were
certain names that, once seen in the heading, he automatically
deleted the associated email. I'm afraid that for me the same
holds true with this thread. I haven't read one for weeks. Any
chance we could move along Errol. My deleting finger is getting
tired.

Don Ledger








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                      Re: Rotating Objects = No Memory

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 02:02:45 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 00:36:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Rotating Objects = No Memory


 >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:32:09 -0500
 >From: Kelly McGillis <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
 >Subject: Rotating Objects = No Memory
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Perhaps this explains the phenomenon of alien abduction and
 >memory processes...?

 >http://unisci.com/stories/20001/0131004.htm

 >People Have Little Memory Of Objects That Rotate


This fascinating research did not adequately explain the
phenomenon of alien abduction and memory processes to me.
Perhaps one of the list pundits can expound in that regard.
However, now I know that if I ever see a future Unidentified
Spinning 0bject I will be sure to remember to make a great
effort to try and remember its direction. It also explains why I
never remembered the direction of those spinning light shows
back in the '60s. Or was it the LSD? If I ever become an
abductee is there something I should know about this? How do
abductees on Updates feel about spinning objects? Does something
strange take place with spinning objects? Inside the ship?

I disagree with Dr. Gilden's statement regarding pulling a car
out of a spin. I used to race sports cars and I also was a
chopper pilot. Any racer who has learned how to race drives by
the seat of the pants. You develop a feel from the butt you are
sitting on. It is the proprioceptive translation by the brain to
create a matrix from practicing spins and racing faster and
higher on the razor's edge of a spin. It perhaps also directly
trains the brain to record the direction of spinning and
overcome our innate perceptual disability.

Flying by the seat of the pants uses the same senses. However,
in an airplane, when you are spinning anyone knows the direction
in which you are traveling, down. Dr.Gilden should try
intentionally spinning around horizontally in a helicopter. It's
fun.

Josh










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                 Press Release: Campaign 2000 - Get Out the

From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 18:27:36 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 00:39:20 -0500
Subject: Press Release: Campaign 2000 - Get Out the


                          X-PPAC
     Extraterrestrial Phenomena Political Action Committee
               _______________________________

Press Release

February 2, 2000

Washington, DC - X-PPAC has formally launched a new initiative
entitled Campaign 2000 - Get Out the Questions.  The goal is to
have citizens asking direct questions of candidates and
incumbents regarding the politics of UFOs/Dislcosure.  The first
public announcement of this initiative occurred on Art Bell's
Coast to Coast Radio Talk Show, January 26.

Public awareness of UFO/ET phenomena and government suppression
of the facts behind them has never been greater. During the 2000
campaign, candidates for national office and incumbents should
prepare themselves to receive tough questions from constituents.
Carefully crafted questions will be appearing on various
websites for the public to copy and take to the political
forums. Currently they are available at these locations:

          X-PPAC:  www.x-ppac.org/Get_out_the_questions.html
                         (Initiative Home Page)
      Enterprise
          Mission:  www.enterprisemission.com/xppacquest.html
             CAUS:  www.caus.org/pn013100.htm

More sites will become involved and more questions added
throughout the campaign year.

Examples:

1)  Are you aware of the allegations by  Army intelligence
     officer, the late Col. Philip Corso, in his 1997 memoir,
     The Day After Roswell, confirming an extraterrestrial
     presence and government cover-up of this fact?

     *   If no, given the significance of these allegations,
         should you not be aware?

     *   If yes, why hasn't the Joint Chiefs, Army, Congress or
         Executive Branch responded to both the book and Col.
         Corso's public statements in 1997 and 1998?

2)   Are you aware of public statements by former Apollo
      Astronaut, Dr. Edgar Mitchell, that active and retired
      government and military personnel of stature have
      confirmed to him the extraterrestrial nature of the 1947
      Roswell, NM event, and a kind of "second government"
      is maintaining a cover-up of the facts regarding an
      extraterrestrial presence n our world?

      *  If no, given that Edgar Mitchell is a distinguished
         American with an MIT PhD and a member of the
         exclusive group of NASA astronauts who walked
         on the moon, should you not be aware?

      *  If yes, why hasn't NASA, the Congress or the
         Executive Branch of our government thoroughly and
         properly responded to these allegations?

Resources are available that would enable a candidate or
incumbent to answer such questions, including meetings with
principals.  Media and candidates wishing to know more should
contact X-PPAC.

X-PPAC
Extraterrestrial Phenomena Political Action Committee
http://www.x-ppac.org
Phone: 301-564-1820
Fax: 301-564-4066
Email:  Exppac@aol.com








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                     Officer Stevens Responds to CSICOP

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 21:20:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 00:57:56 -0500
Subject: Officer Stevens Responds to CSICOP


Enclosed below are comments by Officer Craig Stevens of the
Millstadt Police Department received via E-mail on January 31.
In an effort to verify the authenticity of the message, I
contacted the Millstadt Police Department tonight and spoke
directly with Officer Stevens. He confirmed the letter as being
his, and it is presented here with his permission.

Kenny Young

====================================================

Subject: Just the Facts: from Officer Stevens
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:20:50 EST
From: [deleted]
To:  ufo@fuse.net


My name is Officer Craig Stevens from the Millstadt Police
Department. I was the Officer in Millstadt that witnessed the
object at 4:28am on January 5, 2000.

In my search of the Internet for the truth or possible
information of my recent sighting, I came across your web sight.
I was very impressed with the site, and the information you made
available.

I was very disturbed about the article presented by Joe Nickell.
Lets just get the facts right:

#1 - I feel that the testimony of four possibly five police
officers is very credible. Considering that we are trained
observers. Our credibility has to be of the justifiable and used
in a court of law. We watch things on a daily basis, and have to
report our findings in evidence, and reports. I feel I have done
this by attempting to capture the photo that morning, and
immediately returning to the department to report my findings in
a report, and in a drawing.

#2 - Nickell does not state the facts, or just hasn't done his
homework. He stated that it was traveling silently, then with a
low buzzing noise. I heard the noise when I exited my patrol
car, while taking the picture. ( The other officers did not exit
their vehicles), and the altitude is much higher in Millstadt
than in Dupo (he should have looked at a too map of the area. He
would have observed that the is a large bluff that separates the
two towns that was created by the Mississippi River many years
ago.

#3 - All of the witnesses stated that they observed a triangular
shaped object.

In conclusion he should prepare his facts before reporting them
to the public. My testimony is good enough in a court of law, I
don't understand why it's not good enough for him.

Officer Craig Stevens
Millstadt Police Department

-----------------
Note:  For information on the January 5, 2000 sighting, see:
  http://home.fuse.net/ufo/missouri99.html
-----------------









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                          Re: Should Saucers Spin?

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 21:51:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 01:03:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?


 >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:25:38 -0500
 >From: Kelly McGillis <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
 >Subject: Should Saucers Spin?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

Regarding the recent amusing article by Kottmeyer,
I have a few comments.

 >EDITORIAL........
 >This issue is devoted to Martin Kottmeyer's presentation of yet
 >more evidence showing how cultural influences, particularly,
 >science fiction films, affect the descriptions given by UFO
 >witnesses. Kottmeyer and others who use the psychosocial
 >hypothesis constantly produce evidence to support their ideas,
 >.......

First comment: Evidence?

HAW HAW HAW


 >SHOULD SAUCERS SPIN?
 >Martin Kottmeyer

Second comment regarding spinning and spinning air beneath the
craft:

The sightings by A.C. Urie and sons involves a non-spinning
craft flying in a straight line with something that appeared as
jet exhaust from a port on the side and which caused the trees
underneath to bend around in a way that made it appear there was
a rotation of air underneath the craft. (Recently we read of a
"tornado " spawned by a UFO in Argentina, was it?)

A.C. URIE SIGHTING SUMMARY:
(abstracted from PROSAIC EXPLANATIONS; THE FAILURE OF UFO
SKEPTICISM, available
by request from brumac@compuserve.com)

The sighting by Mr. A. C. Urie and his two sons on August 13,
1947: They lived in the Snake River Canyon at Twin Falls,
Idaho. According to the FBI investigative report of this case,
at about 1:00 p.m. Mr. Urie "sent his boys to the (Salmon)
river to get some rope from his boat. When he thought they were
overdue he went outside to his tool shed to look for them. He
noticed them about 300 feet away looking in the sky and he
glanced up to see what he called the flying disc." This
strange object was flying at high speed along the canyon which
is about 400 feet deep and 1,200 feet across at that point. It
was about seventy-five feet above the floor of the canyon (and
so more than 300 feet below the edge of the canyon) and moving
up and down as it flew. It seemed to be following the contours
of the hilly ground beneath it. Urie, who said he was at about
the same level as the UFO, so that he had a side view, estimated
it was about twenty feet long, ten feet wide and ten feet high,
with what appeared to be exhaust ports on the sides. It was
almost hat shaped with a flat bottom and a dome on top. Its
pale blue color made Urie think that it would be very difficult
to see against the sky, although he had no trouble seeing it
silhouetted against the opposite wall of the canyon. On each
side there was a tubular shaped fiery glow, like some sort of
exhaust. He said that when it went over trees they didn't sway
back and forth, but rather the treetops twisted around, which
suggests that the air under the object was being swirled into a
vortex. He and his sons had an excellent view of the object for
a few seconds before it disappeared over the trees about a mile
away. He thought it was going 1,000 miles an hour.

(NOTE: Hynek, initially a "pelicanist", identified this for
Project Sign/Grudge as a whirling eddy of air. HAW HAW HAW. Some
twenty years later he repudiated his "explanation.")


 >A fin much like that in The Thing appears in a 20 March 1950
 >case (case X in the collection of 12 drawings used in
Battelle's >Special Study No. 14). (22) But The Thing opened in
April 1951. >None of the other cases in that study had fins. Two
had rear >exhaust and one had jets on the side with exhaust
directed >backwards. "Most" had neither fins nor exhaust. Case
VII (6 June >1952) displayed spinning.

Third comment regarding Case X:

Amusing that Kottmeyer should refer to this case, one of the
strongest anti-psychosocial cases ever. Read carefully and you
will learn that the object did rotate about its vertical axis,
but only while turning from one direction (southward?) to
another (southeastward) (not a "spin").

THE ROGUE RIVER SIGHTING (Case X of BB SR#14)
(abstracted from forthcoming book, THE UFO-FBI CONNECTION, to be
published in May)

During the afternoon of May 24, five people, three men and two
women, were in a boat, fishing near the mouth of the Rogue River
in Oregon. At about 5 PM they were scanning the river with 8
power Navy binoculars looking for signs of fish jumping when
they first noticed a strange circular object approaching from
the northeast. Then they watched it for about two and a half
minutes as it hovered east of them before it departed at high
speed in a southeastward direction. The sky was clear and the
afternoon sun was at their backs. To the naked eye it appeared
shiny and shaped like a coin with the flat surface parallel to
the ground. At its closest it seemed to be only a couple of
miles away and about a mile high. They heard no noise.

Two of the witnesses, a draftsman and a wind tunnel mechanic,
were employees of the Ames research laboratory at Moffett Field,
south of San Francisco. (The Ames Research Laboratory carries
out research on jet engines, among other things. Employees have
Secret or Top Secret security clearances) These two men shared
the 8 power binoculars. Each man had about a minute to look at
the object through the binoculars. The men observed that the
object was circular and thin relative to its diameter, with a
shape similar to that of a pancake, and with some sort of a
vertical fin on the upper surface at the trailing edge. They
could see no wings, no antenna, no lights, no propellors and no
jet engines. According to the AFOSI report (note: Air Force
Office of Special Investigations which carried out the early UFO
witness interviews):,

(The) object appeared round and shiny, something like a
fifty-cent piece, viewed from below and to one side. Object's
color was silvery and it appeared round in plan view...Just
before Mr. ...(name censored in the publicly available copy of
the original Air Force document) handed the glasses to Mr. ....
(name censored) the object made a turn on its vertical axis with
no tilting or banking...The trailing edge of the object as it
traveled appeared somewhat wrinkled and dirty looking."

The trailing edge looked wrinkled and dirty but there were no
exhaust ports. Then they saw it speed off in a southeasterly
direction, "accelerating to the approximate speed of a jet
plane" in a few seconds without making any noise. About three
weeks later the Ames employees reported their sighting to the
security office at Moffett Field. The security office then
requested that AFOSI agents investigate the sighting.

In 1952 Project Blue Book hired the Battelle Memorial Institute
in Columbus, Ohio, to carry out a statistical study of flying
saucer reports that occurred between 1947 and the end of 1952.
The main intent of the study, called Project Stork, was to
determine whether or not there were consistent differences
between sighting reports that were explained and those which
could not be explained as mundane phenomena. To carry out this
study the Battelle scientists, working along with the Air Force
personnel at ATIC, first analyzed each sighting to determine
whether or not it could be identified. The scientists were able
to do much better in explaining sightings than the Air Force had
done in 1948 and 1949: they were able to explain about 70% of
the 3,201 sightings they studied. About 10% of the sightings had
too little information for a positive identification. However,
about 20% had sufficient information for identification, yet
resisted explanation. Of the these they found a dozen which they
considered to be the most descriptive of the sighted phenomena.
The sighting described here is the best of that dozen. The two
main witnesses were technically trained and, as nearly as can be
determined from the case file, thoroughly reliable. In the final
report of the study, called Project Blue Book Special Report
Number 14, the scientists included two rough sketches, based on
the verbal descriptions of the Ames employees, showing two views
of a circular object with a thickness much less than its
diameter, no wings, no tail and no engine, but a wrinkled outer
edge an a small protrusion or fin on the upper trailing surface.

The description of the object by the witnesses is very clear: it
was neither an ordinary aircraft nor a hallucination. It either
was a hoax or the real thing...a flying saucer. Could it have
been a hoax? I would say unequivocally no, because the two Ames
employees reported their sighting to the security officer at
Moffett Field. A hoaxer might report a sighting to the press,
radio or TV, but no person of reasonable intelligence whose job
depended upon holding a security clearance would try to hoax the
security officer where he worked. Furthermore, there is no
evidence that this sighting was ever mentioned in the popular
literature. Apparently these witnesses reported the sighting to
no one but the Ames security officer. The security officer then
requested an investigation by the AFOSI. The AFOSI investigators
interviewed all of the witnesses once and interviewed the Ames
employees a second time. The interviews established the high
degree of credibility of this sighting. (Note: the names of the
witnesses are unknown since they were expunged from the AFOSI
records before the records were released to the National
Archives in 1975.)








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                         Re: Request E-mail Address?

From: Chris Kelly <MIBAREA51@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 22:24:20 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 01:20:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Request E-mail Address?


 >Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 23:11:35 +1100
 >From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@powerup.com.au>
 >Subject: Re: Request E-mail Address?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Hello, The official Travis Walton web site came be found at

www.traviswalton.com

the webmaster will forward your email to  Mr. Walton.

Bets Wishes,

Chris Kelly








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                          Re: Should Saucers Spin?

From: Kelly McGillis <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 02:19:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 07:32:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?


 >Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 21:51:57 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:25:38 -0500
 >>From: Kelly McGillis <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
 >>Subject: Should Saucers Spin?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Regarding the recent amusing article by Kottmeyer,
 >I have a few comments.

Thank you Bruce for your research and insights.  You know, last
year, from my office here I saw a - just a very weird thing.
Since I had been a quiet member of Errol's list for about three
years, and also a member of the Fortean list, I immediately
reported to both.

Errol was away and Nic Balaskas asked me all kinds of questions,
and some guy wrote that I was a lunatic or something.  But I am
not a lunatic, really.  I'm just a normal person.

I tried to explain what I saw that night, and quite frankly the
lights ziz-saging were okay, they blew me away, but they were
okay, but it was the green light that came out of those other
lights that I will never forget.  It *emerged* from one of the
lights, like an aquatic animal, and anyway, what is the point of
trying to describe anything to this list?

At the end of my interrogation I just felt like a stupid idiot.
And nothing I said ever made it onto this list.  So!  All you
brilliant people ignore perhaps things people see now and yet
yap on and on and on about 1947 or something.

The one thing I realize is that none of the so-called experts
seem to have much to do with, or can't handle, a recent and
modern-day event.

Like, let me continue on like you'all do. What do you all talk
about here?  The same things over and over and over and over.

Ha!  Okay.

I wish I had 20 gripples or whatever it is that Jim drinks!

Godnight all,

Kelly








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                            AA Film - Danger Sign

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 12:37:19 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 07:39:59 -0500
Subject: AA Film - Danger Sign


Dear colleagues,

Writing in the Skeptical Inquirer some time ago John R. English,
the former Director of  the International Aerospace Hall of
Fame, San Diego Air and Space Historical Centre, researched the
'DANGER' sign seen on the back wall during the alien autopsy
film.

According to English, the graphic design of this sign is from
l967. English used two archives for his research, Occupational
Safety and Health Administration and American National Standrad
Institute.

Obviously if the sign is from l967 then the authenticity of the
alien autopsy film is once again thrown into doubt. However,
English remarks that he feels in 'UNLIKELY' that the sign was
not around in the l940's but he does not catgorically state that
it was not.

I'd therefore like to know if anyone else out there can shed any
light on this and has data to support English's find, or has
information to te contrary.

Yours Sincerely,

Philip Mantle.
pmquest@dial.pipex.com











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                 C-E: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 22:58:28 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 07:45:19 -0500
Subject: C-E: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


I was on the TV program 'The Mark Walberg Show' with a panel
about the UFO phenomenon, including Joe Nickell.

When I walked on the stage I knew nothing (as I had been told
nothing) about who the other guests would be. Joe Nickell
already knew all about ME. Off the air the first thing he said
to me was a wisecrack "Sell any Tapes today?". In reference to
the Air Force UFO Audio Recordings from Edwards Air Force Base
which my company markets. I replied "Yes, the tape is doing fine
and the public likes it."

I further stated to Nickell, that the Edwards Air Force Base UFO
pursuit of October 7, 1965 was a well proven and documented
event. Nickell replied to me, "Its unimportant, its an old
case".  I then asked him if "World War I, World War II, the
Korean War and the Vietnam War were unimportant, as they too
were old events". He then stopped talking to me.

I further asked him if he was ever a member of the U.S. Military
or now belongs to or worked for a U.S. Intelligence Agency. The
rather talkative Nickell was then silent and would not respond
to me.

On the program he proceeded to reduce a woman abductee to tears
and rip apart abductee therapist Yvonne Smith, who was another
on air guest. I have never before seen or met such a rude,
coarse individual on a TV or radio program. He is obviously with
some official government group that wishes to ridicule the UFO
subject, as they feel they are afraid to have the public realize
the truth of the topic. Maybe they are right, there may be a
greater threat than any UFO investigator realizes. However,
sullen, imperious, know-it-alls like Joe Nickell are not the way
to deal with such a possible national security threat.

I have debated Phil Klass (who has far more class than Nickell)
and was up against retired AF Major Jim McGeha on the GERALDO
RIVERA SHOW. I say give me the Major and Phil Klass any day over
Joe Nickell. At least they are human beings and they know
something. I have been told that Joe Nickell's only listed
credits are being a "magician". Well, his verbal sleight of hand
is not equal to the task of pulling the wool over the eyes of
the entire American Public!

I hereby challenge him to debate with me one on one on a live
national Television program the veracity of the UFO subject!

- Sam Sherman

(http://www.edwardsufo.com)










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                 Re: C-E: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:27:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 08:48:32 -0500
Subject: Re: C-E: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 22:58:28 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@AOL.COM>
 >Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

 >I was on the TV program 'The Mark Walberg Show' with a panel
 >about the UFO phenomenon, including Joe Nickell.

 >When I walked on the stage I knew nothing (as I had been told
 >nothing) about who the other guests would be. Joe Nickell
 >already knew all about ME. Off the air the first thing he said
 >to me was a wisecrack "Sell any Tapes today?". In reference to
 >the Air Force UFO Audio Recordings from Edwards Air Force Base
 >which my company markets. I replied "Yes, the tape is doing fine
 >and the public likes it."

 >I further stated to Nickell, that the Edwards Air Force Base UFO
 >pursuit of October 7, 1965 was a well proven and documented
 >event. Nickell replied to me, "Its unimportant, its an old
 >case".  I then asked him if "World War I, World War II, the
 >Korean War and the Vietnam War were unimportant, as they too
 >were old events". He then stopped talking to me.
 >
 >I further asked him if he was ever a member of the U.S. Military
 >or now belongs to or worked for a U.S. Intelligence Agency. The
 >rather talkative Nickell was then silent and would not respond
 >to me.
 >
 >On the program he proceeded to reduce a woman abductee to tears
 >and rip apart abductee therapist Yvonne Smith, who was another
 >on air guest. I have never before seen or met such a rude,
 >coarse individual on a TV or radio program. He is obviously with
 >some official government group that wishes to ridicule the UFO
 >subject, as they feel they are afraid to have the public realize
 >the truth of the topic. Maybe they are right, there may be a
 >greater threat than any UFO investigator realizes. However,
 >sullen, imperious, know-it-alls like Joe Nickell are not the way
 >to deal with such a possible national security threat.
 >
 >I have debated Phil Klass (who has far more class than Nickell)
 >and was up against retired AF Major Jim McGeha on the GERALDO
 >RIVERA SHOW. I say give me the Major and Phil Klass any day over
 >Joe Nickell. At least they are human beings and they know
 >something. I have been told that Joe Nickell's only listed
 >credits are being a "magician". Well, his verbal sleight of hand
 >is not equal to the task of pulling the wool over the eyes of
 >the entire American Public!
 >
 >I hereby challenge him to debate with me one on one on a live
 >national Television program the veracity of the UFO subject!
 >
 >- Sam Sherman
 >
 >(http://www.edwardsufo.com)

Right on, Sam.

If you need a debate partner, I hereby volunteer. Won at Oxford
University Debating Society in 1995.

Nickell is a truly nasty and uninformed debunker who says such
utterly stupid things as "The only reason sightings can't be
explained is that there isn't enough data".

He also claimed that the Roswell story was made up by a PR
guy trying to get attention. Didn't even know his name or
note that that couldn't possibly happen in the 509th.

Stan Friedman










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                           Re: 1909 Travel to Mars

From: Paul Thompson <MrApol@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 08:51:22 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:08:44 -0500
Subject: Re: 1909 Travel to Mars


Hermann Ganswindt was a German inventor, a bit of a crank, who
made a career out of harassing German officials to buy his
inventions. He did design a reaction-powered spacecraft (an
outgrowth of his design for a dirigible).

The Viennese magazine Der Zeit, No. 304, July 28, 1900, carried
an article about Ganswindt's space travel ideas, written by
Prof. Dr. Roman Baron von Gostkowski, dean of the College of
Engineering at the University of Lemberg.

More about Ganswindt can be found in Willy Ley's book "Rockets,
Missiles, and Space Travel," Viking Press, 1954.

Paul Thompson

ParaScope







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                                 Bob Kiviat?

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:11:38 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 18:44:25 -0500
Subject: Bob Kiviat?


Dear All,

Does anyone have the current postal address and fax number for
Bob Kiviat?

If you do could you let me have it c/o: pmquest@dial.pipex.com

Many thanks,

Philip Mantle.







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                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Marty Murray <bubastis@warplink.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 14:09:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 18:46:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 22:58:28 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@AOL.COM>
 >Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM


 >I was on the TV program 'The Mark Walberg Show' with a panel
 >about the UFO phenomenon, including Joe Nickell.

 >When I walked on the stage I knew nothing (as I had been told
 >nothing) about who the other guests would be. Joe Nickell
 >already knew all about ME. Off the air the first thing he said
 >to me was a wisecrack "Sell any Tapes today?". In reference to
 >the Air Force UFO Audio Recordings from Edwards Air Force Base
 >which my company markets. I replied "Yes, the tape is doing fine
 >and the public likes it."

 >I further stated to Nickell, that the Edwards Air Force Base UFO
 >pursuit of October 7, 1965 was a well proven and documented
 >event. Nickell replied to me, "Its unimportant, its an old
 >case".  I then asked him if "World War I, World War II, the
 >Korean War and the Vietnam War were unimportant, as they too
 >were old events". He then stopped talking to me.

 >I further asked him if he was ever a member of the U.S. Military
 >or now belongs to or worked for a U.S. Intelligence Agency. The
 >rather talkative Nickell was then silent and would not respond
 >to me.

 >On the program he proceeded to reduce a woman abductee to tears
 >and rip apart abductee therapist Yvonne Smith, who was another
 >on air guest. I have never before seen or met such a rude,
 >coarse individual on a TV or radio program. He is obviously with
 >some official government group that wishes to ridicule the UFO
 >subject, as they feel they are afraid to have the public realize
 >the truth of the topic. Maybe they are right, there may be a
 >greater threat than any UFO investigator realizes. However,
 >sullen, imperious, know-it-alls like Joe Nickell are not the way
 >to deal with such a possible national security threat.

 >I have debated Phil Klass (who has far more class than Nickell)
 >and was up against retired AF Major Jim McGeha on the GERALDO
 >RIVERA SHOW. I say give me the Major and Phil Klass any day over
 >Joe Nickell. At least they are human beings and they know
 >something. I have been told that Joe Nickell's only listed
 >credits are being a "magician". Well, his verbal sleight of hand
 >is not equal to the task of pulling the wool over the eyes of
 >the entire American Public!

 >I hereby challenge him to debate with me one on one on a live
 >national Television program the veracity of the UFO subject!

 >- Sam Sherman


Hello Mr. Sherman!

I said basically the same thing about Joe Nickell on this list a
few days ago, a bit more bluntly, perhaps, and was attacked for
it. However, as you have just described, what I said was the
truth. It is also typical that Nickell refuses to give any of
his background - education, work experience, etc., which
qualifies him in any way as a scientist or an investigator of
UFOs and other phenomena. If someone is going to present
themselves in the media and to the public as an "expert," then I
expect that person to show at least some kind of qualifications
for making that claim. I'm not surprised that his background
could be in magic. They seem to like magicians over there at
CSICOP. The "Amazing Randi" used to be their "public face" for
the longest time.

CSICOP is not interested in the facts or the truth, only in
quick, easy explanations which can be used to ridicule the
witnesses and sweep the reports rapidly under the carpet. Their
arrogant and condescending views don't stop at the topic of
UFOs. Anything "paranormal" is fair game, including a belief in
organized religion or God. CSICOP has referred to religion as
"the optimist's paranoia." If you have faith in anything outside
of science, it seems, then you are automatically deluded.

And I agree. Phillip Klass might be an extreme skeptic, but at
least he conducts himself with a certain amount of class. Joe
Nickell's behavior shows what type of person he is, and as they
say, the proof is in the pudding. If this is the public persona
which the group wishes to present, then who am I to argue with
their excellent choice.

Take care,

Marty








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                Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 10:42:34 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 18:41:06 -0500
Subject: Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes


 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
 >Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 12:34:34 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 13:31:40 -0500
 >Subject: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes

 >I didn't make any such hypothesis. All I did was point out that
 >you didn't allow for this possibility (repeat, possibility --

Greg, List:

Yes, I'll grant the possibility, albeit unproven.

<snip>

 >You need to find what Mark Cashman, in many posts here,
 >has called "discriminators" -- things that would be true if
 >abduction imagery was derived by science fiction, and would
 >_not_ be true if it was derived from real encounters with
 >aliens.

What would be an example of such a discriminator?

 >And, no, you can't first ask for proof that the aliens are
 >real.

I asked for your evidence.  Then we can talk about proof.

Clear skies,

Bob Young







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                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 15:16:17 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 18:48:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 22:58:28 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@AOL.COM>
 >Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

 >I was on the TV program 'The Mark Walberg Show' with a panel
 >about the UFO phenomenon, including Joe Nickell.

 >When I walked on the stage I knew nothing (as I had been told
 >nothing) about who the other guests would be. Joe Nickell
 >already knew all about ME. Off the air the first thing he said
 >to me was a wisecrack "Sell any Tapes today?". In reference to
 >the Air Force UFO Audio Recordings from Edwards Air Force Base
 >which my company markets. I replied "Yes, the tape is doing fine
 >and the public likes it."

 >I further stated to Nickell, that the Edwards Air Force Base UFO
 >pursuit of October 7, 1965 was a well proven and documented
 >event. Nickell replied to me, "Its unimportant, its an old
 >case".  I then asked him if "World War I, World War II, the
 >Korean War and the Vietnam War were unimportant, as they too
 >were old events". He then stopped talking to me.

 >I further asked him if he was ever a member of the U.S. Military
 >or now belongs to or worked for a U.S. Intelligence Agency. The
 >rather talkative Nickell was then silent and would not respond
 >to me.

 >On the program he proceeded to reduce a woman abductee to tears
 >and rip apart abductee therapist Yvonne Smith, who was another
 >on air guest. I have never before seen or met such a rude,
 >coarse individual on a TV or radio program. He is obviously with
 >some official government group that wishes to ridicule the UFO
 >subject, as they feel they are afraid to have the public realize
 >the truth of the topic. Maybe they are right, there may be a
 >greater threat than any UFO investigator realizes. However,
 >sullen, imperious, know-it-alls like Joe Nickell are not the way
 >to deal with such a possible national security threat.

 >I have debated Phil Klass (who has far more class than Nickell)
 >and was up against retired AF Major Jim McGeha on the GERALDO
 >RIVERA SHOW. I say give me the Major and Phil Klass any day over
 >Joe Nickell. At least they are human beings and they know
 >something. I have been told that Joe Nickell's only listed
 >credits are being a "magician". Well, his verbal sleight of hand
 >is not equal to the task of pulling the wool over the eyes of
 >the entire American Public!

 >I hereby challenge him to debate with me one on one on a live
 >national Television program the veracity of the UFO subject!


Dear Sam, Listers and those doing my biography:

(Note: I am saving my tears in baggies for posterity)

 >I hereby challenge him to debate with me one on one on a live
 >national Television program the veracity of the UFO subject!


Give 'em hell, Sam!  There is nothing... and I mean NOTHING,
worse than someone without a heart.  It's one thing to be
culpably deaf, dumb and blind, but quite another to lie like a
rug whilst applying layers of anger, hate and attitude to
anyone, even a crazed abductee.

Tell you what, I'll donate a ten gallon case of "Give 'em Hell
Gripple" to your cause.  One gallon and you can defeat any three
letter goonbah from any of the goobermint agencies.  After two
gallons, you can handle any agency with even more than three
letters.

And don't worry about your bladder, this stuff stays in the
blood stream for the duration of the debate.  I got it timed
poifectly.

J. Jaime Gesundt (Still whining after all these years)









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                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:02:23 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 18:50:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:27:41 -0400
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: C-E: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Nickell is a truly nasty and uninformed debunker who says such
 >utterly stupid things as "The only reason sightings can't be
 >explained is that there isn't enough data".

What's so stupid about this? Presumably if there was enough data
it might reveal that some UFO reports are the result of
extraterrestrial activity. It seems that some people still seem
to believe that puzzling phenomena can be explained as a "UFO"
per se, without any need for further identification. Either a
thing is identified or it isn't. If it isn't identified it must
be because there is insufficient data to do so.

Or am I just being too logical?

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine and Pelican Fanciers' Quarterly
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:16:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 22:14:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:27:41 -0400
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: C-E: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 22:58:28 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@AOL.COM>
 >>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

 >>I was on the TV program 'The Mark Walberg Show' with a panel
 >>about the UFO phenomenon, including Joe Nickell.

<snip>

 >>I hereby challenge him to debate with me one on one on a live
 >>national Television program the veracity of the UFO subject!

 >>- Sam Sherman

 >>(http://www.edwardsufo.com)

Friedman wrote:

 >Right on, Sam.

 >If you need a debate partner, I hereby volunteer. Won at Oxford
 >University Debating Society in 1995.


Maybe we can "gang up " on "poor ol'" Joe Nickell.







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                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:57:26 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 22:19:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:02:23 +0000
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:27:41 -0400
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: C-E: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Nickell is a truly nasty and uninformed debunker who says such
 >>utterly stupid things as "The only reason sightings can't be
 >>explained is that there isn't enough data".

 >What's so stupid about this? Presumably if there was enough data
 >it might reveal that some UFO reports are the result of
 >extraterrestrial activity. It seems that some people still seem
 >to believe that puzzling phenomena can be explained as a "UFO"
 >per se, without any need for further identification. Either a
 >thing is identified or it isn't. If it isn't identified it must
 >be because there is insufficient data to do so.

 >Or am I just being too logical?


No.

Jim Mortellaro









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                Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 22:09:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 23:11:49 -0500
Subject: Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes


 >Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 10:42:34 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>You need to find what Mark Cashman, in many posts here,
 >>has called "discriminators" -- things that would be true if
 >>abduction imagery was derived by science fiction, and would
 >>_not_ be true if it was derived from real encounters with
 >>aliens.

 >What would be an example of such a discriminator?

Mark has posted numerous examples. Check the UfoMind archives.
Generally speaking, a hypothesis must be testable. You seem to
be saying that the mere existence of science fiction imagery
that shows up in abduction accounts proves that the abduction
accounts were influenced by the science fiction. If I understand
you correctly, that would mean that you think your hypothesis
doesn't need to be tested. It's so obviously true, in your view,
that no further proof is necessary.

But that (needless to say) isn't how science works. Last spring,
I found a bird's nest on my terrace in New York City, with eggs
in it. I assumed they were pigeon eggs, since pigeons are the
most common bird in New York. But my assumption didn't prove
anything. I've also seen mourning doves in my neighborhood; how
did I know I wasn't seeing mourning dove eggs?

My hypothesis, in other words, needed to be proved. What would a
discriminator be? What would I expect to see if these eggs were
pigeon eggs, that I wouldn't see if they were mourning dove
eggs? (This is a very simple-minded example, I know, but in a
way that makes it all the more useful for demonstrating my
point.) The answer is easy -- if these were pigeon eggs, I'd
expect to see a pigeon sitting on them. That's my discriminator.
And in fact I soon did see a pigeon on them, so pigeon eggs they
were.

You're in the same position, Bob. You have a hypothesis that
strikes you as pretty obviously true. But you have to prove it
anyway. You say that science fiction imagery influences (or even
generates) certain abduction imagery. Now you have to draw some
consequences from that hypothesis. If it's true, what might
follow from it? What would we expect to see, as a result of what
you're theorizing, that we wouldn't see if abduction imagery had
some other source? (And, please, no circular reasoning. Please
don't tell us that if your theory weren't true, we wouldn't find
abductees talking about three-fingered alien hands with suction
cups. The connection, after all, is precisely what we need to
prove.)

If I were trying to prove your theory, I might weigh something
like this. If science fiction imagery influences abduction
tales, one thing to consider might be that the influence comes
not simply from the image itself, but from the entire science
fiction source that the image comes from. The most prominent
science fiction source I know of for three-fingered hands with
suction cups is the movie version of "The War of the Worlds."
Maybe, then, I'd look for other elements of that movie in the
same abduction accounts that the three-fingered hands come from.

Or, approaching the problem another way, I might look for
science fiction images in other paranormal beliefs. There are
lots of channelers around who think they channel
extraterrestrials. Can I find reflections of specific science
fiction stories in any of their accounts? Even better, can I
find one science fiction source for what several of these
channelers report? If I could, I'd have suggestive evidence that
science fiction imagery can in fact influence something as
deeply believed as an abduction tale -- something which, I must
say, you're taking for granted in the hypothesis you present.

 >And, no, you can't first ask for proof that the aliens are
 >real.

 >I asked for your evidence.  Then we can talk about proof.

Evidence for what? I've never said that I think the aliens are
real. I'm just trying to sort out possible proof for _your_
hypothesis.

Greg Sandow









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                Re: Recent UFO Sightings Lack Credibility...

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 21:48:28 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 23:13:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Recent UFO Sightings Lack Credibility...


 >Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:55:35 -0500
 >From: Victor J.Kean <VICTOR_J_KEAN@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Recent UFO Sightings Lack Credibility...
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Mike,

 >The exact date would be of interest to those of us who have
 >extensive UFO databases. Maybe someone else saw the same
 >objects.

 >Kind regards

 >Victor J.Kean
 >Project FT

Victor, I have looked through most of my files and have yet to
locate my origional write up of my sighting.  I will continue to
search and if/when I find it, I will post it.

REgards, Mike

  Download ICQ at http://www.icq.com/
  ICQ#:7508455
  BBS: (270) 683-3026
  Fax: (270) 686-7394
  Home: (270) 683-6811
         ---








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                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: GT McCoy  <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:49:27 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 23:21:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:02:23 +0000
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


Hello, all Stan, John,

 >>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:27:41 -0400
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: C-E: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Nickell is a truly nasty and uninformed debunker who says such
 >>utterly stupid things as "The only reason sightings can't be
 >>explained is that there isn't enough data".

 >What's so stupid about this? Presumably if there was enough data
 >it might reveal that some UFO reports are the result of
 >extraterrestrial activity. It seems that some people still seem
 >to believe that puzzling phenomena can be explained as a "UFO"
 >per se, without any need for further identification. Either a
 >thing is identified or it isn't. If it isn't identified it must
 >be because there is insufficient data to do so.

 >Or am I just being too logical?

Well, at first I was mad, then perplexed then well, sad and
depressed, then I decided that I was simply numb. what earthly
or unearthly good does it do as an experiencer (nuts and bolts)
and an observant type (Professional pilot, Aerial Firefighter,
and a NOAA certified weather observer.) to even comment on
Officer Stevens (along with others).

I am not a closed-minded individual, I am a Believer in the "God
who is There"-experiencer, actually, but, I know there is
somthing(s) we don't understand. Can't, through our own limited
understanding of "God the Universe and Everything"

I've said before, Sceptic thought is welcome, and needed, but I
believe that Stan's comment was correct and if one reads the
whole post, and Mr. Sherman's it seems to be that he was
commenting on nasty behaviour to people who have seen something
they can't explain, and that the Prosaic, Mundane, and Ordinary
(PMO for short) can be that answer. Only. Period.

Personally, I think the "Stealth Blimp (or Aereon: Blimp?
Airplane? Both?) is a distinct possibility. and that would be
fantastic enough, but the possiblity of somthing else,
particularly when the thing was so large and sailing though the
sky unnoticed. In the midwest, on a relatively good night, you
could get your gasbag punched by some Doctor in his/her Beech
Bonanza, or some poor Freight Pilot.

No, I don't think it was a joke, errant balloon or swamp gas,
but I can't or won't explain it as, well mundane maybe it is,
but tell me is it a flock of night flying Pelicans?

Sorry, but I had to say that.

GT McCoy











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                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 23:26:05 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 23:38:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

 >Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:27:41 -0400
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: C-E: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 22:58:28 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@AOL.COM>
 >>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
 >
 >>I was on the TV program 'The Mark Walberg Show' with a panel
 >>about the UFO phenomenon, including Joe Nickell.

 >>When I walked on the stage I knew nothing (as I had been told
 >>nothing) about who the other guests would be. Joe Nickell
 >>already knew all about ME. Off the air the first thing he said
 >>to me was a wisecrack "Sell any Tapes today?". In reference to
 >>the Air Force UFO Audio Recordings from Edwards Air Force Base
 >>which my company markets. I replied "Yes, the tape is doing fine
 >>and the public likes it."

<snip>

 >Right on, Sam.

 >If you need a debate partner, I hereby volunteer. Won at Oxford
 >University Debating Society in 1995.

 >Nickell is a truly nasty and uninformed debunker who says such
 >utterly stupid things as "The only reason sightings can't be
 >explained is that there isn't enough data".

 >He also claimed that the Roswell story was made up by a PR
 >guy trying to get attention. Didn't even know his name or
 >note that that couldn't possibly happen in the 509th.

There is no way to gang up on Joe Nickell.

He is most likely backed by the resources of the US Government,
Black Ops, Intelligence, Aerospace, MJ-12, Area 51 and the whole
gang.

However, while our government cannot stop abductions and we are
trying for military parity with the ETs to get in control of our
lives, better spokesmen to defuse residual ET fear must exist
other than Joe Nickell.

- Sam Sherman








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                    Re: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2)

From: Mac Tonnies <Alintelbot@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 23:39:01 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 23:57:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2)


More Frequently Asked Questions

by Mac Tonnies

Q. Before the Mars Global Surveyor took its three photos of the
Cydonia region, many Cydonia researchers had expressed
reasonable confidence that the mystery would be solved.  It
obviously hasn't.  Why not?  Doesn't this prove the Null
Hypothesis was correct all along?

A. The results of MGS image analysis have been mixed.  On one
hand, certain fine-scale structural details on the Face have
either been confirmed or established.  Likewise, the Main City
Pyramid is shown to be a real pyramid-shaped formation, not the
product of wishful thinking based on low-resolution Viking data.
Some of the Mound features as described by Stanley McDaniel,
Horace Crater and others have been shown to have internal
geometric shape consistent with artificial structures (besides
conforming to an apparent mathematical scheme when viewed from
above).

The NW City Formation, on the other hand, does not appear to be
artificial.  It looks like a craggy mountain, with surface
detail that appears geological in nature (whereas the Main City
Pyramid boasts several linear terraces and outcroppings that
await explanation).

Features yet to be imaged in their entirety include the Fort,
Cliff, Tholus and D&M Pyramid.  These formations promise to tell
us interesting things about Mars, whether geological or
archeaological in nature.

The MGS' pictures haven't killed the issue of possible
artificiality, but they have presented us with an opportunity to
hone our existing epistemology, which will be useful when new
pictures are finally available.  Critics who complain that the
"Null Hypothesis" is triumphant since the Artificiality
Hypothesis wasn't "proven" by the MGS are obviously either not
familiar with how science works or else have an aversion to the
implications of future research.  In the case of certain elitist
"skeptical" organizations, this may be due to a combination of
both, compounded by the endless temptation to "go with the
flow."

Q. Why hasn't NASA taken more pictures of the region as
promised?  Didn't administrator Dan Goldin make a public pledge
to reimage Cydonia until everyone was satisfied?

Goldin indeed made this statement; it is a matter of record.  It
is also a matter of record that the MGS has overflown Cydonia at
least twice since April 1998 without taking the promised photos
(which would have been, sadly, of much better quality than the
now-infamous image of the Face).  Malin Space Science Systems
continues to avoid the topic, and NASA refuses further dialogue
with scientists involved with Cydonia research with a zeal that
can only be described as disconcerting.

The reasons for this are unclear.  There is good evidence that
the first two images of the Face released by JPL were presented
in substandard and misleading formats as part of a conscious
attempt to kill interest in the issue.  If so, this attempt was
quite effective.

There is absolutely no evidence of NASA hiding images from the
public; the coverup, if such it can be called, seems to arise
from a certain a priori certainty that the Face, etc. are
natural formations, and that attempts to discover otherwise
would by nature be wastes of time.  In this way, Goldin can make
the false claim that "everyone is satisfied" (i.e. JPL, an
organization of literal rocket scientists who surely know a
"pile of rocks" from an ancient sculpture).

Why Malin Space Science Systems, NASA's camera contractor,
refuses to photograph Cydonia even on opportunities when doing
so would be relatively easy is probably a symptom of the same
flawed reasoning.

Q. What's the hurry, then?  Supposing we discover that there
really is an extinct civilization on Mars, does it particularly
matter how quickly this information is imparted?

A. We argue that a responsible scientific dialogue between NASA
and qualified anomaly researchers be implemented as quickly as
possible.

Documents such as the Brookings Report, which advises NASA re.
the potential discovery of alien artifacts in our solar system,
are founded on the "War of the Worlds" mentality: faced with the
presence of a nonhuman (and superior) intelligence, humanity
will suffer a debilitating existential shock.  The Brookings
Report, in particular, advises NASA to handle the evidence in
secret in order to avoid or allay a social cataclysm.

There is little doubt that we would indeed be in for something
of a shock if alien structures were discovered on Mars.  But by
opening a reasoned dialogue about the subject now, we will be
that much more prepared to deal with the proposed "proof" when
it comes (assuming the validity of the AH).  Cydonia has been
jeered at long enough.  What is needed is a forum in which
skeptics and advocates of the Artificiality Hypothesis can put
their evidence into the public domain in a responsible manner.

The Internet has provided an interesting venue for the type of
exchange outlined above.  Unfortunately, it us ruled almost
entirely by amateurs whose mission is to either deride the issue
sans evidence or embrace the notion of Martian intelligence with
equal disregard for scientific method.  Neither school is
getting us anywhere.

I recommend that NASA follows through with its stated plans to
reimage the region, providing a more solid base on which to
build our theories and inquiries.

-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
*********Mars: The Cydonian Imperative*********

a newsletter devoted to the implementation of manned
Mars missions and the democratization of space science,
emphasizing the strange formations found in the Cydonia
Mensae region.  This list is not affiliated with any particular
Mars advocacy group.

"He runs after facts like a beginner learning to skate, who,
furthermore, practices somewhere where it is forbidden."
--Franz Kafka

To join or unsubscribe: email Mac Tonnies at alintelbot@aol.com.
Comments and questions are also welcome.

Useful websites (note that not all positions represented are
shared with the Cydonian Imperative):

Artemis Society: http://www.asi.org
Mars Society: http://www.marssociety.com
The Martian Enigmas:
http://www.psrw.com/~markc/marshome.html
Bigelow Aerospace: http://www.bigelow-aerospace.com
International Space Station:
http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/station/index.html
SpaceDev: http://www.spacedev.com
Mars: Mysteries of the Red Planet:
http://www.mufor.org/mars.html
Think Mars: http://www.thinkmars.net
CNI News: http://www.cninews.com
Cydonia 2000: http://welcome.to/cydonia/
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_









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                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Mac Tonnies <Alintelbot@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 23:53:45 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 00:03:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:57:26 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Nickell is a truly nasty and uninformed debunker who says such
 >>>utterly stupid things as "The only reason sightings can't be
 >>>explained is that there isn't enough data".

 >>What's so stupid about this? Presumably if there was enough data
 >>it might reveal that some UFO reports are the result of
 >>extraterrestrial activity. It seems that some people still seem
 >>to believe that puzzling phenomena can be explained as a "UFO"
 >>per se, without any need for further identification. Either a
 >>thing is identified or it isn't. If it isn't identified it must
 >>be because there is insufficient data to do so.

You have a good point. But the problem with Nickell and company
is that there's _never_ enough data. Quite convenient -
especially for an organization whose leading UFO "expert's"
stated position is that "all UFO sightings can be explained
(prosaically)."

This isn't science. Not even remotely.

Mac Tonnies








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                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:58:16 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 00:12:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:27:41 -0400
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: C-E: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Nickell is a truly nasty and uninformed debunker who says such
 >utterly stupid things as "The only reason sightings can't be
 >explained is that there isn't enough data".

I gather Stan Friedman thinks the above is stupid because no
matter how much data is available to him, he still can't explain
certain things. For example, when confronted that his own book
claimed he had a Top Secret clearance at one time (a genuine
total falsehood), Stan's retort was he had no idea how that got
into his own book! Now that is "utterly stupid".

 >He also claimed that the Roswell story was made up by a PR
 >guy trying to get attention. Didn't even know his name or
 >note that that couldn't possibly happen in the 509th.

 >Stan Friedman


Below are the real "utterly stupid things" that Dr. Joe Nicholls
is on record regarding Roswell.

 From http:// www.csicop.org written in 1997:

The Roswell Legacy

Joe Nickell

Fifty years ago this summer, the modern UFO craze began. Fed by
fantasy, faddishness, and even outright fakery, the mythology
has become so well nourished that it has begun to spawn bizarre
religious cults like Heaven's Gate. Earlier this month, as
reported by the New York Times, the Roswell controversy reached
out to involve U.S. Senator Strom Thurmond and a former aide,
Philip J. Corso, in a dispute over an upcoming memoir by Corso
for which Thurmond wrote the foreword. The book claims that the
U.S. government used alien technology to win the Cold War.
("Thurmond Disputes Book on Purported Alien Spaceship," New York
Times, June 5, 1997)

This latest publicized controversy is sure to have a catalyzing
effect on the planned fiftieth-anniversary hoopla, July 1-6, at
Roswell, New Mexico, the site of ufology's Holy Grail. From near
Roswell, according to a burgeoning legend, in late June or early
July of 1947, a crashed alien spacecraft and its humanoid
occupants were retrieved and hidden away at a secret government
installation.

The "Roswell incident" as it is popularly known, was propelled
into history on July 8, 1947, by an unauthorized press release
from a young but eager public information officer at the Roswell
Army Air Base. He reported that a "flying disc" had been
retrieved from an area ranch where it had crashed. (For a
detailed account of the Roswell incident, see Kal K. Korff,
"What Really Happened at Roswell," Skeptical Inquirer,
July/August 1997.)

This came in the immediate wake of the first modern UFO
sighting, the famous string of "flying saucers" witnessed by
private pilot Kenneth Arnold on June 24, 1947.

Just such sightings had long been anticipated by pulp
science-fiction magazines, like Amazing Stories, and by the
earlier writings of a crank named Charles Fort. Called "the
world's first ufologist," Fort reported on unidentified objects
in the sky that he believed indicated visits from space aliens;
his reports were based on old newspaper and magazine accounts.

Soon after the press release made headlines around the world,
the young officer was reprimanded and new information was
released: The unidentified flying object had really been a
weather balloon, said officials, and photographs of the
"wreckage" -- some flexible, silvery-looking material -- were
distributed to the press.

In 1949 came the first of the crashed-saucer hoaxes. It involved
a science-fiction movie, The Flying Saucer, produced by Mikel
Conrad, which allegedly contained actual footage of a captured
spacecraft; an actor hired by Conrad posed as an FBI agent and
swore the retrieval claim was true. The following year writer
Frank Scully reported in his book Behind the Flying Saucers that
the U.S. government had in its possession no fewer than three
alien spaceships, together with the bodies of their humanoid
occupants. Scully was fed the story by two confidence men who
had hoped to sell a petroleum-locating device allegedly based on
alien technology.

Other crash-retrieval stories followed, as did photographs of
space aliens, living and dead: One gruesome photo merely
portrayed the charred body of the pilot of a small plane, his
aviator's glasses still visible in the picture.

In 1974 Robert Spencer Carr began to promote one of the crashes
from the Scully book and to claim firsthand knowledge of where
the pickled aliens were stored. According to the late claimant's
son, Carr was a spinner of yarns who made up the entire story.
(See "Son of Originator of `Alien Autopsy' Story Casts Doubt on
Father's Credibility," Skeptical Inquirer, July/August 1997.)

In 1977 a pseudonymous "Fritz Werner" claimed to have "assisted
in the investigation of a crashed unknown object" in Arizona.
This included, he said, his actually seeing the body of one
four-foot-tall humanoid occupant that had been placed in a tent.
Unfortunately there were suspicious parallels between the Werner
and Scully stories and other evidence of hoaxing, including
various inconsistencies in Werner's tale.

In 1987, the author of a book on Roswell released the notorious
"MJ-12 documents" which seemed to prove that a saucer had indeed
crashed near Roswell and that its humanoid occupants really were
recovered. The documents purported to show that there was a
secret "Operation Majestic Twelve" authorized by President
Truman to handle clandestinely the crash/retrieval at Roswell. A
"briefing document" for President-elect Eisenhower was also
included. However, MJ-12 was another Roswellian hoax, the
documents merely crude paste-up forgeries that utilized
signatures cut from photocopies of actual letters and documents.
The forger even slipped one document into the National Archives
so it could be "discovered" there. (The Archives quickly cast
doubt on its authenticity.) The NBC series Dark Skies is based
on the MJ-12 pseudohistory.

In 1990 Gerald Anderson responded to an Unsolved Mysteries
telecast about the alleged 1947 UFO crash (placing it in western
New Mexico). He claimed that he and other family members,
including his uncle Ted, were rock hunting in the desert when
they came upon a crashed saucer with injured aliens among the
still-burning wreckage. Anderson released a diary that his uncle
had kept which recorded the event. Alas, examination by a
forensic chemist showed that the ink used to write the entries
did not exist in 1947 but had first been manufactured in 1974.
(Anderson claimed that the tested pages were copies, but he
never made the alleged originals available.)

The boldest of the Roswell hoaxes came in 1995 when an "alien
autopsy" film surfaced, showing the purported dissection of a
retrieved humanoid corpse. Attributed to an anonymous former
government cameraman, the film was distributed by a British
marketing agency that formerly handled Walt Disney products, and
it was promoted during prime time on the Fox network. Although
the film was supposedly authenticated by Kodak, only the leader
tape and a single frame of film had been submitted, and Kodak
refused to be taken in by the obvious ploy. In time, the film's
bogus, non-military codemark and various anachronisms led it to
be declared a hoax -- even by most ufologists, who let it be
known there were limits to their credulity.

More recently, there was the Roswell "UFO fragment" of 1996, a
piece of swirly-patterned metal that turned out to be nothing
more than scraps discarded by a Utah jewelry artist. And so the
hoaxes continue. Many ufologists have heralded the Roswell
incident as providing the primary evidence for the UFO invasion
of planet Earth. Supporting evidence, of course, purportedly
comes from myriad UFO reports (most of which eventually become
IFOs: identified flying objects) and "alien abductions"
(experiences that skeptics have shown are fantasy-based).

Ironically, the government's claim that a weather balloon
instead of a "flying disc" landed at Roswell was honest but
mistaken. It was not, of course, the grandiose coverup of
extraterrestrial visitation that conspiracy theorists now
imagine. The best current evidence indicates that the crashed
device was in reality a U.S. government spy balloon -- part of a
1940s secret operation called Project Mogul, an attempt to
monitor sonic emissions from anticipated Soviet nuclear tests.

As a consequence of these sordid events, the Roswell incident
has left a half-century legacy of bizarre cult mythology,
anti-government conspiracy theories, and unrelenting skywatching
by self-styled ufologists who seem to fancy themselves on the
brink of a momentous discovery. The latest book or television
program to the contrary, what crashed at Roswell was the truth,
plain and simple.

About the Author

Joe Nickell is CSICOP's senior research fellow. He writes the
Investigative Files column for Skeptical Inquirer and Skeptical
Briefs and is author or editor of more than fifteen books on the
occult and paranormal. Most recently, he coedited the book The
UFO
Invasion (Prometheus Books, 1997).

 >

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
    Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -----










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                               Re: Mac Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <Alintelbot@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 00:07:35 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 08:03:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Mac Tonnies


 >Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:16:42 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: C-E: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>I was on the TV program 'The Mark Walberg Show' with a panel
 >>>about the UFO phenomenon, including Joe Nickell.

 ><snip>

 >>>I hereby challenge him to debate with me one on one on a live
 >>>national Television program the veracity of the UFO subject!

 >>>- Sam Sherman

 >>>(http://www.edwardsufo.com)

 >Friedman wrote:

 >>Right on, Sam.

 >>If you need a debate partner, I hereby volunteer. Won at Oxford
 >>University Debating Society in 1995.


 >Maybe we can "gang up " on "poor ol'" Joe Nickell.

Joe Nickell, by himself, is actually harmless enough--just an
ex-magician making money and having a good time flaunting a
non-existent "expertise."  What bothers me about guys like this,
and the organizations they represent, is the media's slavish
eagerness to use them when any "odd" or remotely "fortean"
phenomenon becomes the focus.

I think news organizations who feel this idiotic responsibilty
to call on CSICOP ("A UFO was sighted? We better call up Joe
Nickell and get his opinion!") are the ones that need to be
debated and challenged.

Without gullible television producers, Nickell would be just
another schmuck with an ax to grind.

Mac Tonnies









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                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Mac Tonnies <Alintelbot@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 01:23:49 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 08:13:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:58:16 -0800
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >>He also claimed that the Roswell story was made up by a PR
 >>guy trying to get attention. Didn't even know his name or
 >>note that that couldn't possibly happen in the 509th.

 >>Stan Friedman


 >Below are the real "utterly stupid things" that Dr. Joe Nicholls
 >is on record regarding Roswell.

 >Fifty years ago this summer, the modern UFO craze began. Fed by
 >fantasy, faddishness, and even outright fakery, the mythology
 >has become so well nourished that it has begun to spawn bizarre
 >religious cults like Heaven's Gate.

Huh?  Granted, there are some whackos out there, but I am not
aware of _any_ Roswell "cults" of the kind mentioned by Nickell.
This is an uninformed ploy to make Roswell look like a complete
fabrication (which is, after all, the a priori conclusion of
Phil Klass, CSICOP's resident guru/expert).

I'm not claiming that Roswell was a UFO crash, though there is
certainly evidence to back this theory (casually ignored in this
piece).  But it's clear that Nickell is writing a propaganda
piece, here, not good journalism.

Heaven's Gate-style Roswell cults?  Name me _one_!

 >The "Roswell incident" as it is popularly known, was propelled
 >into history on July 8, 1947, by an unauthorized press release
 >from a young but eager public information officer at the Roswell
 >Army Air Base.

Arguable at best. Again, Nickell puts the CSICOP spin on this
article in order to avoid wrestling with evidence that
contradicts him.  Has Nickell ever interviewed Walter Haut?  Has
he interviewed _anyone_? Has he left his office?

 >Just such sightings had long been anticipated by pulp
 >science-fiction magazines, like Amazing Stories, and by the
 >earlier writings of a crank named Charles Fort. Called "the
 >world's first ufologist," Fort reported on unidentified objects
 >in the sky that he believed indicated visits from space aliens;
 >his reports were based on old newspaper and magazine accounts.

Calling Fort a "crank" is just plain poor, in my opinion, and
it's obvious Nickell has never read anything by him.

Fort was a scholar, a collector.  His work is a great example of
attempting to find a signal among the noise, and his
theories--which were only that, certainly not the ravings of a
fanatic--were remarkably few relative to the accounts he
amassed.  With this paragraph, Nickell effectively ruins any
measure of fake objectivity he may have been trying to convey.

The rest of the article degenerates further into references to
canceled television series, psychotronic space invader movies,
etc. in a botched and poorly reasoned attempt to render Roswell
into media oblivion (i.e. There was a fake expose about crashed
aliens; therefore the Roswell crash is fake).

You see this "collage" technique all the time in CSICOP's
"exposes."

I interpret it as a lazy writer's way of conveying a thesis by
bombarding the reader with disparate bits and pieces that seem
impressive when viewed from a distance, but amount to nothing
when you try to actually put them together in some sort of
sequential or phenomenological context.

My own opinion of Nickell hasn't changed: utterly stupid.

Mac Tonnies













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                          Re: Should Saucers Spin?

From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:33:25 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 08:31:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?


 >From: Kelly McGillis <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:25:38 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 01:26:45 -0500

 >Subject: Should Saucers Spin?

 >http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/ethbull/mms23.htmlNo.

 >23 January 2000

 >EDITORIAL

 >This issue is devoted to Martin Kottmeyer's presentation of yet
 >more evidence showing how cultural influences, particularly,
 >science fiction films, affect the descriptions given by UFO
 >witnesses. Kottmeyer and others who use the psychosocial
 >hypothesis constantly produce evidence to support their ideas,
 >whereas the ETH proponents can produce only cranky ideas about
 >magnetic, anti-gravity or interdimensional saucers, accompanied
 >by a constant whingeing about "sceptics" and "debunkers" (not to
 >mention "armchair ufologists" and "pelicanists").

 >SHOULD SAUCERS SPIN?

 >Martin Kottmeyer

 >Many do. Most do not. There is no consistency in the matter.
 >Some whirl madly. Some rotate slowly. Seen from below, they
 >rotate counter-clockwise more often than clockwise, but not
 >universally. (1) Some manage to spin both ways at once; the

<snip>

 >This form did not appear during the 1947 Wave. There were
 >at least two dozen cases of saucers with jet or
 >rocket flames in that wave, but they were associated with
 >straight-line flight and never when the property of spinning was
 >mentioned.

 >The earliest report of a pinwheel saucer came out of
 >Russia some time in 1949. We only know of it because someone
 >dug it out of the Blue Book files. A German POW told US military
 >intelligence of his being in Dnepropetrovsk SSR and seeing large
 >disc-shaped missiles that were black in the centre but glowed
 >red to white hot as one goes out along the radius. Out of the
 >rim came sparks.

 >(6)The idea of jet-propelled rims does not become popular until
 >1952 and wide dissemination of news of
 >the crash of a Soviet-made saucer on Spitzbergen. In the 28
 >June account, it was revealed the craft had a stationary cabin
 >and a rotating rim having 46 jets on it. This craft was felt to be
 >Russian since the chronometers and interior instrumentation had
 >Russian symbols on them. On 9 July 1952 the Oscar Linke report
 >of an encounter near Germany's Russian Zone emerges. The
 >refugee mayor saw figures in parkas rush to a saucer that took
 >off vertically. "From the swirling effect of the glowing exhaust I
 >got the impression the whole thing was spinning like a top." (7)


However, this story seems, according to the conclusion from the
following research report (in Norwegian):

http://www.ufo.no/artikler/1991spesial.html

and undertaken by the editor of the Norwegian UFO magazine,
O.J. Brnne, to be nothing more than a "fairytale" / "fabrication".

(I'm sorry I hadn't got time to translate from the report.)


 >On 26 August 1952 Herbert Long and two girls from Kutztown,
 >Pennsylvania also report seeing a large saucer that swished
 >skyward at a tremendous speed. There is a drawing by an artist
 >displaying the pinwheeling effect. (8) Three days later, 29

<snip>

 >MAGONIA Monthly Supplement. Letters and short articles welcome.
 >Letters will be considered for publication unless otherwise
 >indicated.

 >Please send all contributions to the Editor: John
 >Harney - harney@harneyj.freeserve.co.ukETH Bulletin / MMS index

Some further comments to this article; the following URL
addresses an event - possibly - taken place in Norway _in 1938_
- regarding jet-propelled rims:

http://www.ufo.no/english/articles/pre47-1.html

with the following excerpt:

"Summer 1938; Herne;

Sverre Brevik was 21 years old at the time. At night it was
warm, so he could not sleep. He went out to relax and enjoy the
view of nature.

Suddenly he became aware of a sound like a generator increasing
its speed. And then the whole area became illuminated, the sound
grew in strength, causing pain in his head.

About 20 m away from him, a bluish object rose up. It had a
reddish halo around it, and what seemed like openings around it
which blew out a blue-white exhaust. The smell was horrible, it
reminded him of burned rubber. His eyes and throat stinged.

The object rose without any sound, then it fell back again like
a down (the "falling leaf" movement?). Its size was 20-25 m in
diameter, and 2-3 m high. He had a feeling of being observed by
the object.

Then it rose up again and circled the area. The area was once
again illuminated by the exhaust-like things, as it soundlessly
disappeared in a northerly direction. 10 years later he was to
observe an identical object.

HJEMMET. UFO-NYT, 4/1970, 159-60.
Liljegren: A BIBLIOGRAPHY OF REFERENCES TO UFO
INCIDENTS DURING WORLD WAR II., 1987, 2. "


However, my personal feeling to this is that it's is a hoax, and
that everything was "discovered" by reading the Flash Gordon
series, or, that the "observer" read about the German
saucer-like aircraft in the newspapers and magazines in the
early fifties. His description, and drawing (not included here),
fits very well the drawings from these magazines. And, he wanted
some attention from newspapers.

And, I cannot find - and I haven't heard of - any place in
Norway called "Herne", at the coast. (It could possibly be a
misspelling, e.g., "Hernes", but this is just pure speculation.)


Best Regards,

Asgeir








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                  Italian Magazine Looking For New Writers

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:13:41 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 08:41:51 -0500
Subject: Italian Magazine Looking For New Writers


Dear colleagues,

My friend and colleague Maurizio Baiata in Rome, Itlay, is
looking for new writers for his excellent newsstand magazine.
[Notizario UFO --ebk] The magazine itself covers a wide variety
of topics and not just UFOs.

If you are interested in seeing your work featured overseas then
you can contact Maurizio direct at: mbalien@tin.it

There is no need to worry about the language barrier as Maurizio
speaks and reads and writes excellent english.

Please feel free to forward this message on to your colleagues.

Many thanks,

Philip Mantle.








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                        Re: AA Film - New Information

From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:31:26 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 08:49:22 -0500
Subject: Re: AA Film - New Information


 >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:57:58 -0600
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Steven W. Kaeser
 >>Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:56:17 -0500
 >>Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:50:45 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

 >Previously, I had offered the following regarding the
 >"containment suits" in AA:

 >>>And on this point, consider the irony: The suits were supposed
 >>>to prevent contamination yet, because of poor visibility,
 >>>actually increased the likelihood of a possible cut or nick by a
 >>>contaminated scalpel. Ask any doctor and he or she will tell you
 >>>that such things happen far to regularly under the best of
 >>>conditions in the O.R. Protocols may change; the recognized

 >>>I do not believe for an instant that a real doctor would even
 >>>consider working under such conditions, even if they were in the
 >>>military and taking orders.

 >Steven writes:

 >>If you accept the cameraman's story, these suits were not really
 >>required for safety reasons. I believe that he declined to wear
 >>his suit while filming at least one of the procedures, in spite
 >>of the fact that the medical personnel wore theirs.

 >Hi, Steven!

 >Well, this is sort of the nut of the whole thing. If they
 >weren't needed then why were they wearing them?

 >Continuing, Steven offered:

 >>I would point out that radiation suits would have been different
 >>than bio-hazard suits, which I believe these were meant to
 >>represent.

 >Exactly! And what is a bio-hazard suit that isn't air tight? As
 >you say, if the alleged cameraman is to be believed, they could
 >wear them or not. Since they were useless as actual bio-hazard
 >suits, why on earth would a trained surgeon risk a nick or a cut
 >due to the poor visibility the suits rendered? This has never
 >made any sense to me at all.


Roger and Steve,

Just a point to throw in here, I suppose their use would
depend mainly on the level of the expected hazard.

The Autopsy footage should not be considered in isolation, and
accepting of course, the Tent Footage as the hoax it was, we are
still left with the Debris Footage, this actually might tell us
quite a lot about the perceived level of hazard both biological
and nuclear. Nowhere in those few short feet of film do you see
ANY precautions taken other than a gas mask hanging from one of
the tent poles. And this presumes to be shortly after our
"visitors" have been cudgeled, dragged, bound and carried away
by "unprotected" troops. The "control panels" presumably are
those mentioned in the "cameramans story" being clutched by the
"freaks", are held and displayed with bare hands and therefore a
seeming zero regard for any biological "contamination".

This is of course _if_ you accept the film as legit, if you
don't, you can take the easy option, the suits make it look more
convincing and hide the actors in the process!.

Now onto the second part of my post:

A feeling has been voiced in this thread that the AA saga has
been flogged to death, the arguments take on a "circular" feel
and ultimatly lead knowhere because the story has reached a dead
end, starved of new information. Many gave up early on
dismissing the whole circus as an undoubted hoax. The AA film is
a quandery that is unlikly to be resolved to _everyones_
satisfaction unless a certain German gentleman can be
forthcoming with some film, I put my money on the hell bound
snowball of this _ever_ happening.

We are left with the images as I said in a previous post, thay
can be ignored but the damb things will not go away and they are
all we have to work with.

What I hope to release shortly regarding the AA film is so far
"out of left field" I have hesitated in doing so for the last 12
months and more. I recently "tested the water" by issuing to a
few "researchers" a preview document and image and I thank them
for keeping the confidence. The result was as I frankly
expected, _very_ mixed because, if accepted, it strongly
suggests the debris from Roswell, as portrayed in the FW
photographs _and_ the AA debris have a _common_ source.

There are features in _both_ sets of debris which match, I say
_features_ as this is a multiple crossmatch of items, one I
could accept as a fluke, two would be interesting, but there are
three matches on _one_ piece of debris seen in the AA Debris
Footage.

I have no doubt I will be accused of reading too much into vague
"smudges" and "tricks of the light", I can live with that, I
simply ask people to take the time and effort to go and look for
themselves when the details are released shortly. I will place
the image data for inspection on my website and if Errol will
allow, forward a sample via the list when the page is available.

A short illustrated article I have written regarding the overall
work of the RPIT in revisiting the Fort Worth Photographs and
the spinoff work concerning the AA Film finds will be published
shortly in Flatlands Magazine, check availability in the US with
Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>.

It's hoped George Filer will forward an abridged version of the
draft article in a forthcoming Filer's Files.

Best Regards,

Neil.

--
*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *
Neil Morris.       /101101101 Virtual Bumper Stickers Inc 10110101010\
Dept of Physics.   1                                                 1
Univ of Manchester 0                                                 0
Schuster Labs.     1  Computer Programmers DO IT with BITS of BYTES  1
Brunswick St.      0                                                 0
Manchester.        1                                                 1
UK.                \0101010110010110110010110101101011011110101011010/
G8KOQ


              E-mail: neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk

Roswell and Alien Autopsy Archive->  http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/
Dave Willetts Home Page->    http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/dave_willetts/
Mike Sterling Home Page->    http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/mike-s/
Tim Morgan Home Page   ->    http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/tim-m/

*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *







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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 5

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:58:46 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 08:52:47 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 5


      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 5, Number 5
February 3, 2000
Editor: Joseph Trainor

Masinaigan@aol.com

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/

TEAMS HUNT FOR SUSPECTED
UFO IN NORTHERN ARGENTINA

      On Tuesday, January 25, 2000, around 1 p.m.,
residents of Sachayoj, a village in Chaco province
in northern Argentina, spotted a bright "shiny" object
in the sky.  Some witnesses described it as "a ball
of fire."
      "An enormous ball of fire slammed into a
densely-wooded wilderness region, and residents
claim to have heard loud noises followed by an
explosion and much smoke.  A tremor also shook
the entire area for several minutes."
      Eyewitness Ramon Agustin, who works at the
Andres Bello Provincial School #188 in Sachayoj,
"explained that the phenomenon he witnessed
caused 'a very strong reaction' in him, and he 'had
no idea what what was falling down.  I felt considerable
panic and fear.'"
      The panic was shared by other residents.  A
witness named Rojas explained that the "fireball was
quite large and descended rapidly from the north towards
the south, accompanied by loud whistling and thunder.
I looked at it and felt paralyzed.  I didn't know what to do.
After the event, I ran away and stayed with my family."
      "In the direction where it presumably descended,
local residents were reduced to tears," he added.
      Sachayoj is located in La Esperanza, a sparsely-
populated region of subtropical rain forest and deep,
wide canyons.  The area is about 450 kilometers
(270 miles) northeast of Santiago del Estero and
575 kilometers (345 miles) northwest of Buenos
Aires, the national capital.
      The village commissioner, Sra. Olga Bertodotti,
told Argentinian newspapers that "a farmhand at the
project known as Fabril Chaquena witnessed the
object's fall."
      On Wednesday, January 26, 2000, "technicians,
researchers and astronomers from all parts of the
country (Argentina)," converged on the region and
began a search under the supervision of the
Policia Provincial.
      On Friday, January 28, 2000, the police
interviewed many of the witnesses.
      On Saturday, January 29, 2000, "police
combed on foot the vicinity of Sachayoj to find
the unidentified object, which, like a fireball,
fell to Earth on Tuesday and was also sighted
from Chaco" province.
      "Experts, police and a group of baquenos
(hunting guides--J.T.) scouted the area known
as La Esperanza, northeast of Santiago del
Estero in search of the luminous unidentified
object that surprised local residents on Tuesday."
      Opinions vary as to what the object really
was.  Some say it must have been a meteor;
others insist that it was a "shiny UFO."
      According to Sra. Bertodotti, "With the arrival
of the year 2000 and apocalyptic beliefs,
townspeople are concerned about the strange
object that fell from the sky and are following
events closely."
      "Residents all agree that 'a thing in the sky,
very shiny, fell in the wilderness.  There was
smoke, and the earth shook."
      Argentinian ufologist Carlos Alberto Zardia
said, "We are hoping to find something because
the locals are simple people with no reason to
lie.  It may well be that this thing was a meteorite
instead of a spacecraft."  (See the Argentinian
newspapers Diario Hoy de la Plata for January 29,
2000 and Intervoz de Cordoba for January 30, 2000.
Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales, autor del libro
Chupacabras and Other Mysteries y Gloria Coluchi
para esas historias.)
(Editor's Comment:  Interestingly January 20 was
the fourth anniversary of another UFO crash in
South America--the one at Varginha in Minas Gerais
state, Brazil.  This is certainly Argentina's week to
dominate the news.  Read on.)

MISSING AIRLINER FOUND ON
MOUNTAINTOP IN THE ANDES

      On August 1, 1947, the Star Dust, an Avro Tudor
airliner with four propellor engines, took off from the
brand-new Heathrow airport just outside London.
The British South American Airways (BSAA) airliner
was on her way to Santiago de Chile.
      The Star Dust's crew consisted of the pilot,
Captain Reginald Cook, who had flown hundreds
of hours in RAF Lancaster bombers during World
War II; First Officer Norman Hilton-Cook, Second
Officer Donald Checklin, Radio Operator Dennis
Harmer and Stewardess Iris Adams.
      Also aboard was a very special passenger,
Paul Simpson, 44, a diplomatic envoy known as
a "King's Messenger" and a close confidant of
King George VI (father of Queen Elizabeth II--J.T.)
      Following its flight across the Atlantic (on
the same route as her doomed sisters, the
Star Tiger and the Star Ariel--J.T.), the airliner
refueled at the airfield in Punta Asuncion,
Argentina and then took off on the last leg
of her flight--right over the Andes.
      With the wings and four Rolls-Royce Merlin
engines of the wratime Lancaster bomber, the
1,000-horsepower Tudor had a flight ceiling of
25,000 feet (8,000 meters) and could easily
fly over the high Andes mountains.
      But something happened to the Star Dust.
"It was headed for Santiago de Chile when it
lost radio contact at 2 p.m. on August 2, 1947."
      In the weeks that followed, searchers
scoured the upper slopes of Mount Aconcagua
and El Mercedario "but were unsuccessful in
locating it."
      But in December 1999, Argentinian aviation
enthusiast Juan Carlos Mouso was flying over
Mount Tupungato, 110 kilometers (66 miles)
southwest of Mendoza and 500 kilometers and
500 kilometers (300 miles) west of Buenos Aires,
"when he spotted the glint of sunshine on a
fuselage on the mountain's south face."
      Mouso convinced the Argentinian government
to mount a search of Tupungato.  Assisting Mouso
in the arduous climb was Argentina's 11th Mountain
Infantry Regiment.
      On Monday, January 24, 2000, Mouso and two
Argentinian soldiers "found a badly-damaged four-
engine Lancaster and three frozen bodies" on one
of Tupungato's glaciers at an altitude of 5,500
meters (17,600 feet.)."
      Apparently, the Star Dust had exploded in
mid-air, scattering debris over the snowfields
to a distance of one kilometer (0.62 miles).
      "Investigators huffing through the thin air
at the crash site found twisted metal and the
remains of three frozen bodies amid the wreckage
of the fuselage."
      "'Because the plane exploded, the remains
may be spread over a radius of 1,000 meters, so
we don't discount the possibility of finding more
body parts,' said Lt. Col. Ricardo Bustos of the
11th Mountain Infantry Regiment."
      "Besides the three bodies, the searchers
also found a woman's hand and a shoe with a
Royal Air Force (RAF) insignia that may have
belonged to one of the pilots."
      "'The urgency now is to fence off the (crash)
site so no one removes any of the discovered
remains until a group of specialists can arrive,
which is difficult but not impossible,' Lt. Col.
Bustos said."
      Argentinian "federal judge Alfredo Manuel
Rodriguez is in charge of the forensic investigation
and is taking fingerprints and DNA samples to
establish the victims' identities."
      Paul Simpson was reportedly wearing a
small silver lapel pin in the form of a running
greyhoud.  This is the insignia of a King's
Messenger and will probably be used to
identify his remains, if they are found.
(See the Argentinian newspapers Uno for
January 24, 2000 and La Nacion for January 26,
2000. Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Jim
Hickman para esas historias.)
(Editor's Comment:  Exploded in mid-air!?
There's a mystery for you!  Also, the Star Dust
went down exactly ten days after the first
UFO landing in South America.  On July 23,
1947, a UFO described as "a Saturn-shaped
saucer 150 feet wide" landed at Bauru in
western Sao,Paulo state, Brazil.  All the
workmen at the scene fled except Jose C.
Higgins, who talked for an hour with several
of the UFO occupants.  Higgins described
the aliens as "seven feet tall, with huge red
eyes, large round bald heads, no eyebrows,
no beards and legs longer in proportion
than hours."  Fore more on the doomed
Star Tiger and Star Ariel, see UFO Roundup,
Volume 5, Numbers 3 and 4.)

GIANT ICE CHUNKS FALL
ON CITIES IN ITALY

      Last week Italy became the second
European country, after Spain, to experience
multiple falls of giant chunks of ice.
      On the evening of Thursday, January 27,
2000, "an ice block fell in Avellino, in
Campania province," about 250 kilometers
(150 miles) southeast of Rome and about
120 kilometers (72 miles) east of Napoli
(Naples) "which according to specialists
may have fallen from a plane."
      "A chunk of ice weighing two kilograms
was reported" to have fallen "on the patio of
the Salesians (monastery) in the town of
L'Aquila.  The religious order notified the police
of this event."
      In Ancona, "the magistrate's office will
investigate a report that a 24-year-old man was
struck on the head by a block of ice weighing
one kilogram."
      "However, there are always those who take
advantage of the confusion that this phenomenon
has produced...but other eyewitnesses claim to
have seen them fall inexplicably from the sky."
      "Likewise confessions have been extracted
from those who have taken advantage of the
'psychosis' to play pranks in the cities of Bolsena,
Firenze (Florence) and Padua.  But these are
insufficient to explain a phenomenon which
remains a complete mystery."
      "Initial analyses" of the Avellino ice "has
proven that the block consists of a liquid similar
to distilled water, in other words, lacking any
mineral salts whatsoever, and with traces of
ammonia and nitrates."
      According to the Veneto Regional Environmental
Agency, "scientists discounted the possibility that
the ice chunks may be radioactive."
      Dr. Giancarlo Tebaldi of the Hygiene and
Prevention Institute of Milano (Milan) "believes that
the ice is a result of the storms that ravaged
France in December (1999)."
      Italian ufologist Eufemio Del Buono "stated that
the ice is 'a warning from extraterrestrial intelligences.'"
(See the Agence France Presse story for January
28, 2000.  Grazie a Scott Corrales per questo
rapporto.)
(Editor's Comment:  First Spain, now Italy. So far,
the ice has fallen between 40 and 42 degrees
North latitude.   If this stuff is from space, the next
country to get hit may be either Albania, Macedonia
or northern Greece.)

MYSTERY METEOR LIGHTS
UP WESTERN AUSTRALIA

      On Thursday, January 27, 2000, at 11 p.m.,
"a very bright white light," described as "a basket
ball sized fireball with a flourescent green train"
crossed the southern coast of Western Australia
(W.A.) state "Between Albany and Esperance
and headed northeast at an estimated altitude
of 100 kilometers (60 miles)."
      Esperance, W.A. is located 672 kilometers
(420 miles) southeast of Perth, the state capital.
      The mysterious object "reportedly split into
three or four pieces at an estimated altitude of
80 kilometers (50 miles) by the time it reached
Kalgoorlie and the Eastern Goldfields.  It was
observed from as far away as Shark Bay (on
Australia's northwest coast--J.T.)"
      "Three pieces exploded east of Kalgoorlie
whilst the fourth travelled some 2,000 kilometers
(1,200 miles) to Wyndham in the northeast where
it disintegrated into many smaller pieces at an
estimated altitude of 20 kilometers (12 miles)."
      The Perth Astronomical Observatory "received
hundreds of phone calls on the event."
      An observatory spokesman said the fireball
could have been the Russian satellite Molynia
returning to Earth.  The Molynia was launched
back in 1986.  (See the newspaper The Western
Australian for January 28, 2000.  Many thanks to
Harry Mason for this news story.)

BEACHGOERS SIGHT UFO
IN MEXICO'S BAJA REGION

      On Friday, December 31, 1999, James B. and
some friends were readying a bonfire on a Sea of
Cortez beach near San Felipe in Mexico's Baja
California del Norte when they saw something
strange in the sky.
      "My friend and I saw a big dull red light going
from north to south above the horizon at several
thousand miles per hour," Jim reported, "I've
never see anything go that fast.  Did anyone else
in Baja seen anything that night?"
      San Felipe is on Camino (Highway) 5 about
249 kilometers (156 miles) south of Mexicali.
(Email Form Report)

COUPLE SEES A UFO IN
SOUTHERN ALABAMA

      On Wednesday, December 28, 1999, Lynn L.
and her husband were outdoors in their hometown
of Tillmans Corner, Alabama (population 5,000)
when they saw a UFO.
      "My husband and I were looking at the moon
and saw what we thought was a star.  It moved to
the right, then stopped.  I got out of the car and
looked at it.  It had turned and two large bright
lights were in front of it and a red light in the middle.
We knew it wasn't a plane."
      "It flew over us at a very slow speed, and it made
no sound whatsoever.  We were really scared at first,
at least I sure was."
      "The back of it was huge.  I really couldn't tell but
it looked like two big shapes on either end of it in the
back," Lynn reported, adding that the object was at
an estimated altitude of 1,200 feet and was "triangular
in shape, with green and red lights."
      After the couple drove home, she added, "Strange
things happened later that night in my house.  I know it
sounds strange but here goes: A house plant that I'd
had (for years) turned up missing that same night.  It
just disappeared."
      Lynn found the flowerpot, but the plant itself and
the soil it had been anchored in were missing.
      "There was no soil in the pot where it was.  I
just can't understand it."
      Tillmans Corner is on Highway 90 approximately
11 miles (17 kilometers) south of Mobile.  (Email
Form Report)

MULTICOLORED UFO SEEN
IN ELK RIVER, MINNESOTA

      On Friday, January 28, 2000 at 9 p.m.,
and again on Saturday, January 29, 2000 at
5:30 a.m., residents of Elk River, Minnesota
(population 11,143) spied an unusual object
with bright multicolored lights hovering near  their
homes.
      "We first noticed a bright red light in the sky,"
Denise M. reported.  "At first I thought it was a jet
since we have jets that pass over making their
descent into MSP (Minneapolis-St. Paul International
Airport--J.T.)  The UFO approached from the east
and hovered.  The longer I watched, I realized it was
not moving.  It was also emitting blue, green, red and
white lights."
      "I went and got my binoculars so I could look at
it closer.  Viewing it through the binoculars, you could
see that it had white lights that ran around the bottom
of the object, and blue, green and red lights were
flashing from the top."
      "I watched for approximately 45 minutes before it
moved to the south, then hovered in that position."
      "During this time, I called a neighbor to verify what
I was seeing.  He also tried to look through the
binoculars and agreed he had never seen anything
like it.  This continued for approximately two-and-a-
half minutes before it disappeared to the southeast."
      "From a distance, it appeared to be moving quite
slowly.  Could someone respond back if they've seen
anything similar?"
      Elk River is on Highway 10 approximately
22 miles (34 kilometers) north of Minneapolis.
(Email Form Report)

"GOD'S ARMY" TAKES THE
OFFENSIVE IN THAILAND

      A new guerrilla army has sprung up in western
Thailand on the border with Myanmar, and it is
rooted in religious mysticism.
      "Until late last month, Johnny and Luther Htoo,
the chain-smoking 12-year-old leaders of God's
Army, were minor players in an ethnic struggle for
a homeland inside Burma (Myanmar)."
      The Htoo twins were among the 2,000 refugees
of the Karen people who fled to Thailand in March
1997 to escape the Myanmar Army.  But then
events took a strange turn.
      "The twins, just nine years old, approached a
local pastor, The Pe, and said spirit warriors on a
fabled holy mountain had told them to find seven
men to fight the Burmese army."
      "The Pe helped the twins recruit a force
numbering 100 men and christened them 'the Jesus
Commandos.'  The ragtag troops then routed the
Burmese troops in a noontime ambush.  The
victory gave birth to belief in the unbeatable powers
of the twin warriors."
      "In the months that followed...the group changed
its name to God's Army and established a jungle
hideout" near Mae Sot, Thailand.  "The guerrillas
carried out a series of successful ambushes during
1997."
      In December 1999, ten God's Army soldiers
"slipped into Thailand and siezed a provincial
hospital and about 700 hostages.  Thai commandos
eventually freed all the hostages and shot dead all
the captors."
      "The twins have had handlers from time to time.
One such man was a shadowy dwarf named 'Mr.
David.'  'This kind of character, if you put him in a
movie, you're accused of too much,' says Thierry
Falise, a French photojournalist referring to
Mr. David's sudden appearance in the bizarre tale."
      The Htoo twins have very different personalities.
"Johnny is much more of a jokester, while Luther
has a war-weary and intimidating gaze.  It is Luther
who is thought to have established the moral
teachings for God's Army--a mix of religious
restrictions that forbids adultery, eating pork or eggs,
drinking alcohol or taking drugs."
      "Their faith is a combination of Christianity,
imported to the area by Nineteenth Century American
Baptists, and spirit-worshiping animism (i.e. the
traditional religion of the indigenous Karen people--
J.T.)  The camp's church is little more than bamboo
pews and an altar.  Its roof is the jungle canopy,
Falise says.  Soldiers wore crosses but regarded
them as talismans.  If the twins want to go anywhere
outside their immediate surroundings, they are
carried by older soldiers."
      "Karen are particularly receptive to messianic
figures because their folklore tells of a king who
will liberate the people from suffering, according to
Pornpimon Trichod, a researcher at Chulalongkorn
University's Institute of Asian Studies."  (See
USA Today for February 2, 2000. "'God's Army,'
led by boys, driven by faith," page 14A.)
(Editor's Comment:  First it was Cong Chua Yeu
Thuat in Vietnam.  Now it's Johnny and Luther Htoo
in Thailand.  What's with all these religion-based
armies springing up in Southeast Asia?  The hidden
masters of Tong Yao must be working overtime to
keep the pot boiling.)

from the UFO Files...

1979: UFO HOVERS OVER A
           CATTLE STATION IN
           WESTERN AUSTRALIA

      "It was a dark, moonless, hot January night
(in 1979) on Dave and Rita Turner's lonely cattle
station (ranch in the USA--J.T.) on the Kimberley
Plateau north of Halls Creek, Western Australia."
      "Dave had driven off to visit a neighbouring
property owner for a short meeting, while Rita
stayed home and watched television."
      "As she watched, the screen flickered badly.
At the same time their dogs began barking
wildly.  Rita could hear the cattle, horses and fowls
going mad in their enclosures out behind the
farmhouse."
      "Leaving the lounge room to investigate the
disturbance, she could hear a high-pitched humming
sound coming from outside the house.  As she
emerged from the back door, she found the whole
farmyard lit up by an ionised blue glow coming from
above.  As she looked up, she was shocked to see a
large circular object, at least 20 metres (66 feet)
across, emitting the ionised blue glow while hovering
directly over the farmhouse barely 30 metres
(100 feet) above the roof."
      "Then, as she stood speechless, the humming
sound faded along with the ionised blue glow.  The
eerie craft grew dark and rose silently into the sky
to be lost from sight."
      "Regaining her senses, Rita phoned up the
neighbour and asked Dave to come home at once."
      "She also phoned the police.  By the time they
arrived the next day, many other property owners
over a wide area of the Kimberley had reported
seeing the same mystery craft that night."
      "Dave was mystified by the whole incident
when Rita related her experience to the two
startled constables who visited the station."
      "A week later, she received an explanation
from the authorities.  The RAAF's conclusion?
(Royal Australian Air Force--J.T.)  What Rita
Turner had seen was nothing more than the
'flashing blue light of a police car'!
      "Obviously she had been visited by the
flying squad!"  (See the book Mysterious
Australia by Rex Gilroy, Nexus Publishing,
Mapleton, Qnld., Australia, 1995, page 28.)

SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT:
      Britain's UFO Magazine has obtained 2,500
hours of NASA space shuttle launches.  The
material was originally compiled by a Canadian
TV station manager who believes that the video
footage confirms extraterrestrial activity.
      Portions of the collection have already been
shown at the UFO Conference in Acapulco, Mexico
on December 12, 1999 and at the Phenomena
exposition in Fremantle, W.A., Australia.
      UFO Magazine will feature this collection
in its March-April 2000 issue, which goes on sale
in UK on February 24, 2000.  People looking for a
preview can log in at this website.  Set your browser
for http://www.ufomag.co.uk/NASA100.htm.

      We'll be back in seven days with more UFO and
paranormal news from around the planet, brought to
you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup."
Have a nice week...and stay on the lookout for
Punxsatawny Phil.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2000 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
news items from UFO Roundup on their websites or
in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter
and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared.



*********************************************************
IMPORTANT Please Read:
======================

The Hunger Site
---------------
http://www.thehungersite.com

Every 3.6 seconds somebody starves to death. 3/4 of the
deaths are children under 5. By visiting the Hunger Site
and clicking on a button you can donate free food.

There is absolutely no charge to you for the donation -
the food is paid for by sponsors.

Do this once a day (no more) and help make a difference!
If you have a web site download a banner and give a link!
*********************************************************

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm


Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives of the UK UFO Network Bulletin,
AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences,
UFO + PSI Magazine also available, plus archives of
Filer's Files.









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 3

                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Donald  Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:54:28 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:08:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:57:26 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:02:23 +0000
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:27:41 -0400
 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: C-E: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Nickell is a truly nasty and uninformed debunker who says such
 >>>utterly stupid things as "The only reason sightings can't be
 >>>explained is that there isn't enough data".

 >>What's so stupid about this? Presumably if there was enough data
 >>it might reveal that some UFO reports are the result of
 >>extraterrestrial activity. It seems that some people still seem
 >>to believe that puzzling phenomena can be explained as a "UFO"
 >>per se, without any need for further identification. Either a
 >>thing is identified or it isn't. If it isn't identified it must
 >>be because there is insufficient data to do so.

 >>Or am I just being too logical?

 >No.

 >Jim Mortellaro

Who said there wasn't proof. The officers, was it six, said they
saw it. Is that not proof? Knickell wasn't there and said they
didn't. Is that proof that it didn't happen. The burden is on
him as much as the officers to prove his contention. They were
there. He was not. He also sounds like a bit of a twit. Let's
not start bending over backwards to give this guy the benefit of
the doubt. Make him attempt at least to dis-prove everything as
were are attempting to prove it. I for one am tired of
witness-bashing.

"The only reason sightings can't be explained is that there
isn't enough data". Maybe he should try making some up.
Otherwise shut up. This is a stupid statement. It relieves him of
all of the responsibility of disproving it. Let him do some
work. It's like saying that the only reason we didn't find this
person guilty of murder is that we couldn't find any evidence.
Duh.

Come on you people. There's enough reasons to disprove various
sightiings et al without manufacturing them. And Jim, you can't
get away with a simple "no" to Ritter's last statement.

Don Ledger







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   Feb > Feb 3

                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:46:47 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:14:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:58:16 -0800
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:27:41 -0400
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: C-E: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Nickell is a truly nasty and uninformed debunker who says such
 >>utterly stupid things as "The only reason sightings can't be
 >>explained is that there isn't enough data".

 >I gather Stan Friedman thinks the above is stupid because no
 >matter how much data is available to him, he still can't explain
 >certain things. For example, when confronted that his own book
 >claimed he had a Top Secret clearance at one time (a genuine
 >total falsehood), Stan's retort was he had no idea how that got
 >into his own book! Now that is "utterly stupid".

 >>He also claimed that the Roswell story was made up by a PR
 >>guy trying to get attention. Didn't even know his name or
 >>note that that couldn't possibly happen in the 509th.

 >>Stan Friedman

 >Below are the real "utterly stupid things" that Dr. Joe Nicholls
 >is on record regarding Roswell.

<snip>

Roswell is not my bag Ed. I've read about but have not done any
investigation of it. So one way or the other I don't know if it
happened. But the thing is, by what I read below, neither does
Nickell. He links, right off the bat, the UFO phenomenon with
Heavens gate... he constantly uses words like "pulp fiction" and
"hoop-la", "bizarre cult" and "young but eager" press officer
[how the hell would Nickell know if the press officer was young
and eager (this mind you when thousands of "young/old" men had
just finished winning the most devastatibng war the world had
ever seen)  or even if the press release was unauthorized.]
Junior officers take the fall for senior officers that screw up
all the time.

I'm surprised that you would buy into a press release that
looked like it was constructed by some of the best
disinformation people in the political arena. I've been around
that sort of thing for thirty years and I've got a real
sensitive nose for political BS. Nickell is full of it.

He also drags out a great deal of obvious hoaxing, a well known
ploy, with which to taint the that which so far has not been
disproved.That's classic political manouvering. You know this,
and I know this but Nickell is banking on the fact that most of
the readers out there don't know it. However he didn't do such a
great job with the 6 police officers' sighting did he. He came
up with some lame statement about the only reason that this and
other cases haven't been disproved is that there wasn't enough
scientific evidence to disprove them. Or the only reason the
defendant was found not guilty was there was no evidence to
convict him. Jesus.

By the end of the article he didn't prove or disprove anything,
did he?

Don Ledger








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   Feb > Feb 3

                  Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:44:33 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:31:45 -0500
Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip


 >Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:19:29 -0500
 >From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >..... and the flogging of the dead horse continued:

The flogging of the dead horse likely goes something like this;

We know the horse is dead, we know the tail and the legs are
fakes, _but_ perhaps the head and the back are real... so lets
talk about the head and the back... :)

Cheers,
Robert







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   Feb > Feb 3

                Re: Italian Magazine Looking For New Writers

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:49:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:41:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Italian Magazine Looking For New Writers


 >Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:13:41 +0000
 >From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
 >Subject: Italian Magazine Looking For New Writers
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >Dear colleagues,

 >My friend and colleague Maurizio Baiata in Rome, Itlay, is
 >looking for new writers for his excellent newsstand magazine.
 >[Notizario UFO --ebk] The magazine itself covers a wide variety
 >of topics and not just UFOs.

Er, no! It's not "Notiziario UFO", no longer...

The society between Maurizio Baiata and Roberto Pinotti was
broken last year, and each of them launched his own UFO magazine
in the Italian newsstands.

Maurizio Baiata's is called "UFO Network" and is much more
conspiracy-oriented, crashed-Ufos-oriented, etc. (you know,
Philip Corso, Michael Wolf, Bob Dean, Bob Lazar, etc.), while
Roberto Pinotti had to leave the old title "Notiziario UFO"
because of legal threats by Baiata and so renamed it "UFO
Notiziario", which is now reverting to more classical a concept
of ufology.

Just like broken marriage, the division left both parties angry
and hating each other, so that now Pinotti's people call Baiata
(whom they've been working together for four years!) a
sensation-monger with an eye for money. At the same time Baiata
is publishing articles where former CUN director and Pinotti's
close friend Corrado Malanga reveals that Roberto has been a
plant by the intelligence community...

Well, you pay your money, you take your choice.

Best regards


Edoardo Russo
Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici
CISU, Casella postale 82, 10100 Torino
tel 011-3290279 - fax 011-545033
http://www.cisu.org      e-mail: e.russo@cisu.org









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   Feb > Feb 3

                        TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:26:03 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:43:50 -0500
Subject: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


The sad reality is that there is control of the media.

Study the declassified (formerly Top Secret) results of the CIA
Robertson Panel of 1952 0r 53? - (much of this is still
classified). They decide to deal with the UFO subject with
denial and ridicule. This policy is still in effect.

Outside of a "paranormal" show or two - rare to find hard news on
the UFO subject without some "spin" from a major TV, Cable
network or major media like the AP, who cancelled a major UFO
investigation story after one of their important reporters spent
a week on it - never got to the media!

TV is regulated by the FCC!

Regarding US Govt/Military UFO involvement, I have spoken to
major network reporters who are afraid to offend the government
and thus lose their jobs.

Don't expect fair treatment of this subject from major media.
They are programmed to call guys like Joe Nickell, and I am
convinced from my questioning him that he is not just a simple
ex-magician. There is something real and conspiratorial there
with "official" connections and I am not a conspiracy theorist.

- Sam Sherman






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                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Marty <bubastis@warplink.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:05:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:45:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 00:07:35 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <Alintelbot@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:16:42 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: C-E: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>I was on the TV program 'The Mark Walberg Show' with a panel
 >>>>about the UFO phenomenon, including Joe Nickell.

 >><snip>

 >>>>I hereby challenge him to debate with me one on one on a live
 >>>>national Television program the veracity of the UFO subject!

 >>>>- Sam Sherman

 >>>>(http://www.edwardsufo.com)

 >>Friedman wrote:

 >>>Right on, Sam.

 >>>If you need a debate partner, I hereby volunteer. Won at Oxford
 >>>University Debating Society in 1995.


 >>Maybe we can "gang up " on "poor ol'" Joe Nickell.

 >Joe Nickell, by himself, is actually harmless enough--just an
 >ex-magician making money and having a good time flaunting a
 >non-existent "expertise."  What bothers me about guys like this,
 >and the organizations they represent, is the media's slavish
 >eagerness to use them when any "odd" or remotely "fortean"
 >phenomenon becomes the focus.

 >I think news organizations who feel this idiotic responsibilty
 >to call on CSICOP ("A UFO was sighted? We better call up Joe
 >Nickell and get his opinion!") are the ones that need to be
 >debated and challenged.

 >Without gullible television producers, Nickell would be just
 >another schmuck with an ax to grind.

 >Mac Tonnies

And to that I say "Amen!"

Take care,

Marty







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                          Re: Should Saucers Spin?

From: Victor J.Kean <VICTOR_J_KEAN@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:37:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:58:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?


 >Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:33:25 +0100
 >From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >And, I cannot find - and I haven't heard of - any place in
 >Norway called "Herne", at the coast. (It could possibly be a
 >misspelling, e.g., "Hernes", but this is just pure speculation.)

<snip>

Asgeir,

Hernes, Sor Trondelag, Norway    63deg. 30' N. 8deg. 20' E.

Regards
Victor J.Kean
Project FT







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                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:59:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 17:30:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:46:47 -0300
 >Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:14:24 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

 >>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:58:16 -0800
 >>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:27:41 -0400
 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: C-E: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >I'm surprised that you would buy into a press release that
 >looked like it was constructed by some of the best
 >disinformation people in the political arena. I've been around
 >that sort of thing for thirty years and I've got a real
 >sensitive nose for political BS. Nickell is full of it.


Hello Don

I am surprised that you are surprised.

Serge Salvaille








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                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:07:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 20:18:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 23:26:05 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >There is no way to gang up on Joe Nickell.

 >He is most likely backed by the resources of the US Government,
 >Black Ops, Intelligence, Aerospace, MJ-12, Area 51 and the whole
 >gang.

Wait just a minute. Is there any evidence for this? Maybe you
think he behaves like a government agent -- or like you think a
government agent would behave -- but that doesn't mean he is
one. Accusations like this are serious, and should never be made
without solid evidence.

Greg Sandow








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                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:16:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 20:24:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:58:16 -0800
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:27:41 -0400
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: C-E: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Nickell is a truly nasty and uninformed debunker who says such
 >>utterly stupid things as "The only reason sightings can't be
 >>explained is that there isn't enough data".

 >I gather Stan Friedman thinks the above is stupid because no
 >matter how much data is available to him, he still can't explain
 >certain things.

Of course you gather wrong, but that is nothing new. Your
persisted with insisting certain MJ-12 documents were frauds
because they lacked  TOP SECRET Control numbers despite two
archivists saying not so and my having published several that
didn't.

It is stupid because it is totally false as you would note by
looking at the definitions on page 12 of Project Blue Book
Special Report 14 which takes pains to make a clear cut
distinction between UNKNOWN and INSUFFICIENT INFORMATION

But then there are 13 anti-UFO books that don't even mention
BBSR 14, I gather because it is the largest study ever done for
the USAF.

 >For example, when confronted that his own book
 >claimed he had a Top Secret clearance at one time (a genuine
 >total falsehood), Stan's retort was he had no idea how that got
 >into his own book! Now that is "utterly stupid".

I also said Don B did the writing and I missed it in the
galleys. I repeat I have never said I had a TS clearance.

 >>He also claimed that the Roswell story was made up by a PR
 >>guy trying to get attention. Didn't even know his name or
 >>note that that couldn't possibly happen in the 509th.

The story was apparently based on a San Francisco newspaper
saying so and that the PIO was unnamed. TOTALLY WRONG. Walter
Hauit was named all over the place even if his name was spelled
4 different ways. Nickell didn't know his name and had done no
research. Many people have indeed talked to Walter.

 >>Stan Friedman

 >Below are the real "utterly stupid things" that Dr. Joe Nicholls
 >is on record regarding Roswell.

Thanks for showing such splendid examples of Research by
Proclamation. Something that Joe excels at. No point in letting
the facts get in the way of the explanation.

Stan Friedman









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                               Re: Mac Tonnies

From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:15:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 08:09:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Mac Tonnies


 >Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 00:07:35 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <Alintelbot@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:16:42 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: C-E: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>I was on the TV program 'The Mark Walberg Show' with a panel
 >>>>about the UFO phenomenon, including Joe Nickell.

 >><snip>

 >>>>I hereby challenge him to debate with me one on one on a live
 >>>>national Television program the veracity of the UFO subject!

 >>>>- Sam Sherman

 >>>>(http://www.edwardsufo.com)

 >>Friedman wrote:

 >>>Right on, Sam.

 >>>If you need a debate partner, I hereby volunteer. Won at Oxford
 >>>University Debating Society in 1995.


 >>Maybe we can "gang up " on "poor ol'" Joe Nickell.

 >Joe Nickell, by himself, is actually harmless enough--just an
 >ex-magician making money and having a good time flaunting a
 >non-existent "expertise."  What bothers me about guys like this,
 >and the organizations they represent, is the media's slavish
 >eagerness to use them when any "odd" or remotely "fortean"
 >phenomenon becomes the focus.>

 >I think news organizations who feel this idiotic responsibilty
 >to call on CSICOP ("A UFO was sighted? We better call up Joe
 >Nickell and get his opinion!") are the ones that need to be
 >debated and challenged.

 >Without gullible television producers, Nickell would be just
 >another schmuck with an ax to grind.


Right on, Mac!

Joe Nickell was on Toronto's The Camilla Scott Show back in
February 1997. I got to experience first-hand his debunking
of the UFO phenomena.

I took it very personally due to the fact that I had had
sightings of my own.

I wasn't really impressed with him. He's got television
producers fooled!


Michel M. Deschamps
UFO Eyewitness/Researcher/Historian









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                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:27:26 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 10:59:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:54:28 -0300
 >From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:57:26 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:02:23 +0000
 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:27:41 -0400
 >>>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: C-E: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Nickell is a truly nasty and uninformed debunker who says such
 >>>>utterly stupid things as "The only reason sightings can't be
 >>>>explained is that there isn't enough data".

 >>>What's so stupid about this? Presumably if there was enough data
 >>>it might reveal that some UFO reports are the result of
 >>>extraterrestrial activity. It seems that some people still seem
 >>>to believe that puzzling phenomena can be explained as a "UFO"
 >>>per se, without any need for further identification. Either a
 >>>thing is identified or it isn't. If it isn't identified it must
 >>>be because there is insufficient data to do so.

 >>>Or am I just being too logical?

 >>No.

 >>Jim Mortellaro

 >Who said there wasn't proof. The officers, was it six, said they
 >saw it. Is that not proof? Knickell wasn't there and said they
 >didn't. Is that proof that it didn't happen. The burden is on
 >him as much as the officers to prove his contention. They were
 >there. He was not. He also sounds like a bit of a twit. Let's
 >not start bending over backwards to give this guy the benefit of
 >the doubt. Make him attempt at least to dis-prove everything as
 >were are attempting to prove it. I for one am tired of
 >witness-bashing.

 >"The only reason sightings can't be explained is that there
 >isn't enough data". Maybe he should try making some up.
 >Otherwise shut up. This is a stupid statement. It relieves him of
 >all of the responsibility of disproving it. Let him do some
 >work. It's like saying that the only reason we didn't find this
 >person guilty of murder is that we couldn't find any evidence.
 >Duh.

 >Come on you people. There's enough reasons to disprove various
 >sightiings et al without manufacturing them. And Jim, you can't
 >get away with a simple "no" to Ritter's last statement.


Dear Don, Listers and mommy dearest;

Oh yes I can. The man asked if he were being logical. I merely
answered on his behalf!

Hmmm... before I let this go too far, and before all my fans
begin wincing (I hate it when that happens), allow me to present
a clarification.

OK?

Thank you.

Question aksed: "Or am I just being too logical?"

Question answered: "No!" Perhaps I should have added an
extension to the answer. Perhaps it would have been more clear
had I said, "No, you are not being too logical. You are not even
being just plain logical." See?

Still confused? Wait, there's more. Supposed this were a court
of law and I was counsel for the plaintiff?

"Your honor I object!" (That's me doing the objecting)

"On what grounds?"

"Asked and answered." (That's me again)

"Sustained, the court may now stop wincing. And you, over there
in the third juror's seat... please stop feeling sorry for
counsel for the plaintiff. He's just whining again."

How many times must I pray that people like Class don't
reproduce? And whadda we get? Another Nickel and deeper in debt.
St. Peter don't ya call me cause I can't go. I owe my soul to
the insectoid store.

Da, da, da, da ... da da da da.

If that don't make 'em wince, nuttin will.

Jim Mortellaro







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                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 01:40:07 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:06:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:07:20 -0500
 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
 >Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 23:26:05 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>There is no way to gang up on Joe Nickell.

 >>He is most likely backed by the resources of the US Government,
 >>Black Ops, Intelligence, Aerospace, MJ-12, Area 51 and the
 >>whole gang.

 >Wait just a minute. Is there any evidence for this? Maybe you
 >think he behaves like a government agent -- or like you think a
 >government agent would behave -- but that doesn't mean he is one.
 >Accusations like this are serious, and should never be made
 >without solid evidence.

Greg,

My accusations are my own opinions and I reserve the right to
make them.

I base my opinions on an hour spent with this man at a TV studio
and the questions I asked him off the air that he answered and
about some he just turned away and rudely remained silent.  I
have heard that CSICOP is a big operation with many people and
their own building etc. When most other paranormal magazines are
either out of business, facing cancellation, struggling to keep
going or someone's possible hobby/business - someone is pouring
tons of dough into CSICOP and it can't be the profit from the
sales of their magazine.

It is my opinion and the opinion of others I have spoken to with
more knowledge of this than me that this is a U.S. Government
funded operation.

If I am wrong in my characterization, then this man seriously
needs to get a life, as what he is doing makes little sense to
me.

- Sam Sherman








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                      TMP News: News Briefing - 2.4.00

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 00:06:10 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:43:53 -0500
Subject: TMP News: News Briefing - 2.4.00



TMP NEWS
The E-News Service of The Millennium Project

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

February 4, 2000

_____________________________



NEWS BRIEFING
2.4.00



QUANTA
Science and Technology

Scientists Keep Searching For a Signal From Mars Polar Lander
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/searching.html


EXOTICA
Unexplained Phenomena and Forteana

P3N Press Release:  Judge Gives UFO Group Its Day in Court
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/court.html

X-PPAC Press Release: Campaign 2000 - Get Out the Questions
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/questions.html

(Note: TMP will also be posting a copy of these questions on the
web site in the next few days)

_____________________________


TMP News is the electronic news service of The Millennium
Project, providing daily news briefings (summarized listings) of
the latest relevant news stories and reports, as well as
periodic information and updates on major breaking news stories
and TMP-related news and events. TMP News is edited by Paul
Anderson and published by TMP, and is available free by
subscription; to be added to or removed from the mailing list,
send your request, including "subscribe TMP News" or
"unsubscribe TMP News" and e-mail address to:

psa@direct.ca

For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all
correspondence to:

THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC   V6J 1J4   Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

_____________________________


� The Millennium Project, 2000









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                       Sighting Over Lincolnshire, UK

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 04:54:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:48:29 -0500
Subject: Sighting Over Lincolnshire, UK


The sighting below is courtesy of uk.rec.ufo and has been
replied to for more information.

Todd Lemire --

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains,
however improbable, must be the truth." - Arthur Conan Doyle

======

Hi all,

I need some help!

On the 23rd Jan at approx 21:00 this year, my parents saw a
bright light glide over their house and travel some 3 miles from
Holbeach towards Kings Lynne.  The object was travelling slowly
- with a flashing light much like a navigation light on a plane.
However, when it was 3 miles away it stopped (at an altitude of
also 3 miles), and the navi light then went out.

Suddenly a larger white light appeared in the centre of the
object, with flashing, intermittent lights around the object.

The object hovered for approx 10 minutes, at which point the
object then dipped to the side slowly, then shot up and away
into the sky at what my dad thought to be well over 5000 mph.
As my mum put it, ' it flew into space'!

I basically need to know if anyone else saw this object.  My
parents did not hear any noise, although my Dad did say it was
some distance away. However, my parents are NOT taken to flights
of fancy - and my father is a trained ex-RAF observer of some 25
years standing - familiar with aircraft flight patterns etc (he
used to be a radar operator at some stage).

It was not a glider or a plane. My parents house is beneath an
RAF flight path regularly used by the Tornado's and Hercules
based in Lincoln.

If my dad says it was weird, then believe me - it's as weird as
it gets!

I hope someone knows either what it was - or if someone else did
see it (whether that be military radar or otherwise).

Please reply to the newsgroup - the email address is a fake due
to spammers!

Thanks again,

mE










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                          Re: Should Saucers Spin?

From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 10:54:05 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:51:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?


 >From: Kelly McGillis <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:25:38 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 01:26:45 -0500

 >Subject: Should Saucers Spin?

 >http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/ethbull/mms23.htmlNo.

 >23 January 2000

 >EDITORIAL



<snip>

 >MAGONIA Monthly Supplement. Letters and short articles welcome.
 >Letters will be considered for publication unless otherwise
 >indicated.

 >Please send all contributions to the Editor: John
 >Harney - harney@harneyj.freeserve.co.ukETH Bulletin /
 >MMS index


Some comments to this article; the following URL addresses an
event - possibly - taken place in Norway _in 1941/42_ -
regarding spinning discs:

http://www.ufo.no/english/articles/pre47-1.html

with the following excerpt:

"Jul/Aug 1941/42; Mary/Nordhordland;

Irene Skram and her cousin, saw a silvery disc at about 11
o'clock. It sort of rose up out of the ground southeast of the
witnesses, about 300 m away. Three grey wisps were trailing the
disc, who were _rotating about its own axis_. It ascended slowly
to a height of about 100 m, when it seemed to descend slowly
again, and the three wisps trailing the disc fell down about 100
m north of the witnesses' house. The disc disappeared. Two men,
who also saw the disc (the cousin's husband and his friend),
went to get the wisps, and brought back three haycocks. There
did not appear to be anything odd about the haycocks. They asked
their neighbour to the south, and he verified that three
haycocks were missing from his property, without them telling
him about the disc. The object were seen for about 2 minutes,
and its size were about 10 m in diameter. The diameter of each
haycock were 12-15 m, and the separation between each were 5-6
m.


UFO REPORT FORM, 6 Jan 1965.
UFO-NYT, 5/1966, 188-9.
Bertelsen: UFO-80., 1980, 65.
Liljegren: A BIBLIOGRAPHY OF REFERENCES
TO UFO INCIDENTS DURING WORLD WAR II.,
1987, 8."

However, my personal feeling to this is that it's is a hoax, and
that everything was "discovered" by reading the Flash Gordon
series, or, that the "observers" read about the German
saucer-like aircraft in the newspapers and magazines in the
early fifties. Their description, fits very well the drawings
from these magazines. And, they possibly wanted attention from
media.

The observers also seem to have reported this incident in 1965;
many years after it took place (in 1941/42).


Best Regards,

Asgeir











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                                     Re:

From: Alfredo Lissoni <alisson@tin.it>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:27:05 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:58:08 -0500
Subject: Re:


After the justified critics of using the name of Centro
Ufologico Nazionale (CUN is Italy's 35-year old most
authoritative UFO study Center, http://www.cun-italia.net) for
his personal purposes, journalist Maurizio Baiata was denied to
publish any longer CUN's monthly magazine, UFO NOTIZIARIO, which
since May, 1999, edited by Roberto Pinotti as usual, is being
published in Florence, distributed in all Italian newstands
(and now selling 10,000 copies as the ufological market leader
publication in Italy).

Baiata's publication, UFO NETWORK, is mainly devoted to UFO
sensationalism and is losing readers more and more, as a
consequence of its wild and unverified contents.

Dr. Roberto Pinotti (CUN s President) and Centro Ufologico
Nazionale are organising with the Republic of San Marino, as
usual, the 8th WORLD UFO SYMPOSIUM in San Marino, scheduled for
June 3rd and 4th, 2000.

Pinotti is also the organiser of two other forthcoming symposia
in San Marino: the "1st World Meeting about the lost origins of
Civilization and anachronism in Archaeology and History" (March
25th and 26th) and the "1st World Meeting about Space
Exploration and Life in the Universe" (May 6th and 7th),
supported by the San Marino Government as well. Details from:
statoturismo@omnyway.sm (Gloria Licini).

Roberto Pinotti.

CUN's President









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                            AA US News Clippings?

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 13:02:21 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 12:00:48 -0500
Subject: AA US News Clippings?


Dear colleagues,

As part of our book on the alien autopsy film we have taken
selected quotes from the UK newspapers who covered the film at
the time (l995).

I would very much like to do the same kind of thing with
newspaper clippings from the USA.

Does anyone have such clippings or know where I might locate
them?

If you do I would greatly appreciate it if you could contact me
direct at: pmquest@dial.pipex.com

Many thanks,

Philip Mantle








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                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:44:57 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 12:04:13 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


 >From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:26:03 -0500 (EST)
 >Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:43:50 -0500
 >Subject: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

 >The sad reality is that there is control of the media.

<snip>

 >Outside of a "paranormal" show or two - rare to find hard news on
 >the UFO subject without some "spin" from a major TV, Cable
 >network or major media like the AP, who cancelled a major UFO
 >investigation story after one of their important reporters spent
 >a week on it - never got to the media!

Dear Sam, All:

Not a week goes by without a UFO program, somewhere, on my 60+
cable channels.

 >TV is regulated by the FCC!

Content? Since when?

 >Regarding US Govt/Military UFO involvement, I have spoken to
 >major network reporters who are afraid to offend the government
 >and thus lose their jobs.

About UFOs? If you really have such information why not reveal
their names, publicly? C'mon, just one or two (you did say
"reporters", didn't you?), please don't keep us hanging here.

What about Watergate? Whitewater? Or what we saw in the last
year about the most senior officials in the country?

 >Don't expect fair treatment of this subject from major media.
 >They are programmed to call guys like Joe Nickell.

Ever actually talk to a reporter, Editor or News Director, Sam?
They are programmed to get two sides, even though there is often
only one serious side, and more often many sides, but it's just
too complicated or will take too much time.

<snip>

 >There is something real and conspiratorial there with
 >"official" connections and I am not a conspiracy theorist.

You obviously find it hard to believe that there are people in
the world who would actually disagree with you. Does CSICOP
really bother you so much that you think that they must be
secret Guv'mnt agents trying to get you?

Bob Young









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                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:05:48 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 12:51:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 01:40:07 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:07:20 -0500
 >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 23:26:05 -0500 (EST)
 >>>From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@aol.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca


Greg, Sam, and list,

 >>>There is no way to gang up on Joe Nickell.

 >>>He is most likely backed by the resources of the US Government,
 >>>Black Ops, Intelligence, Aerospace, MJ-12, Area 51 and the
 >>>whole gang.

 >>Wait just a minute. Is there any evidence for this? Maybe you
 >>think he behaves like a government agent -- or like you think a
 >>government agent would behave -- but that doesn't mean he is one.
 >>Accusations like this are serious, and should never be made
 >>without solid evidence.

 >My accusations are my own opinions and I reserve the right to
 >make them.

Yes, it's a free country, which means among other things that
one is free to express silly, unsupported opinions.  And Sam's
accusation, sans a shred of evidence (for good reason: no such
evidence exists), that Joe Nickell and CSICOP are in the pocket
of sinister gummint organizations is as silly and unsupported as
anything I've seen on this list lately.

I've known Nickell for a long time.  His skeptical take on
various anomalous claims goes back many years, when he was free-
lancing articles from his native Kentucky for magazines
including Fate, for which I then worked.  I still think that the
articles he wrote for the magazine back then were among the best
we published during my tenure there.  Since joining up with
CSICOP, he's become far more militant and much less interesting,
but CSICOP is a belief-driven group, and anybody who works,
lives, and breathes there is bound to get caught up in the
culture. My late friend Gordon Stein worked for CSICOP and
related operations in Amherst, New York, and used to give me
interesting insider's accounts of what went on there.

As for CSICOP itself, chairman Paul Kurtz's fund-raising talents
(also apparent during his controversy-ridden leadership of the
American Humanist Assocation back in the 1970s) are legendary.
If Kurtz knows anything, it's where the money is and how to get
it.  To accuse CSICOP of being a front for anything beyond an
intense, if naive, advocacy of an extreme variety of scientism
is simply to betray one's ignorance and give vent to baseless
paranoia.

Jerry Clark









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                  Italian Magazine Looking For New Writers

From: Alfredo Lissoni <alisson@tin.it>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:27:05 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 13:15:07 -0500
Subject: Italian Magazine Looking For New Writers


After the justified critics of using the name of Centro
Ufologico Nazionale (CUN is Italy's 35-year old most
authoritative UFO study Center, http://www.cun-italia.net) for
his personal purposes, journalist Maurizio Baiata was denied to
publish any longer CUN's monthly magazine, UFO NOTIZIARIO, which
since May, 1999, edited by Roberto Pinotti as usual, is being
published in Florence, distributed in all Italian newstands
(and now selling 10,000 copies as the ufological market leader
publication in Italy).

Baiata's publication, UFO NETWORK, is mainly devoted to UFO
sensationalism and is losing readers more and more, as a
consequence of its wild and unverified contents.

Dr. Roberto Pinotti (CUN s President) and Centro Ufologico
Nazionale are organising with the Republic of San Marino, as
usual, the 8th WORLD UFO SYMPOSIUM in San Marino, scheduled for
June 3rd and 4th, 2000.

Pinotti is also the organiser of two other forthcoming symposia
in San Marino: the "1st World Meeting about the lost origins of
Civilization and anachronism in Archaeology and History" (March
25th and 26th) and the "1st World Meeting about Space
Exploration and Life in the Universe" (May 6th and 7th),
supported by the San Marino Government as well. Details from:
statoturismo@omnyway.sm (Gloria Licini).

Roberto Pinotti.

CUN's President







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                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 13:43:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 18:52:27 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


 >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:44:57 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:26:03 -0500 (EST)
 >>Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:43:50 -0500
 >>Subject: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

<snip>

 >>The sad reality is that there is control of the media.

<snip>

 >>There is something real and conspiratorial there with
 >>"official" connections and I am not a conspiracy theorist.

 >You obviously find it hard to believe that there are people in
 >the world who would actually disagree with you. Does CSICOP
 >really bother you so much that you think that they must be
 >secret Guv'mnt agents trying to get you?


Dear Bob, Sam, wincers and winced at,

Reader's discretion advised.  Following content is politically
incorrect.

 >Not a week goes by without a UFO program, somewhere, on my 60+
 >cable channels.

Should, in year 2000, Iraqi aircraft systematically violate
allied air space, disable military bases and equipment, present
far far more technological performance than UN equipment, abduct
and _put_back_ western citizens by the hundreds, let's bet that
the UN would give the US card blank to deal with the matter.  In
the same breath, Congress would be more of a zoo than it is
actually, Sadam would have his face on every front page in the
world, and you would have 60+ reports on the event on your 60+
cable channels.

I understand that there is a difference between the UFO
phenomena and Sadam.

After all, UFOs have been at it for more than 50 years and they
abduct people by tens of thousands.  Normal then that Congress'
zoo yawns, UFOs make front page when debunked or hoaxed, and
conspiracy theorists lack any credibility.

Sadam is just a desert bully threatening the world petroleum
jelly market.

The other guys use the freaking petroleum jelly for their rectal
probes.

My simple question: who is supposed to prove what?

Serge Salvaille









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                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 18:38:20 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 19:02:34 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


 >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:44:57 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Don't expect fair treatment of this subject from major media.
 >>They are programmed to call guys like Joe Nickell.

 >Ever actually talk to a reporter, Editor or News Director, Sam?
 >They are programmed to get two sides, even though there is often
 >only one serious side, and more often many sides, but it's just
 >too complicated or will take too much time.

Hi Bob and Sam,


I have been a journalist for eight years now and when I write an
article I like to hear and quote both sides. However, to say
that this is normal journalistic practise goes too far. Under the
influence of television, a fast and low threshold medium, there
exists a tendency among editors to go for shorter articles,
snapshot impressions and human interest content.

As far as UFO reporting is concerned, in the last five years I
made three attempts to publish an article in a mainstream
magazine. In all three cases my aim was to give examples of hard
evidence for the existence of anomalous flying objects. In all
three cases the editors refused. In the same magazines
commentaries by proven debunkers or reporters with a shallow
knowledge of UFO matters were published.

This situation could improve however. The current editor of a
large mainstream magazine here is a believer in UFOs and has
pledged to accept a UFO article written by me if I ever offer
it. Whether he will do this when push comes to shove remains to
be seen however. Editors are political animals. For the time
being I have pushed aside my intent to write on UFOs because I
was tired of running into a brick wall.

However, I have recently agreed on writing an article about the
Echelon system, another under-reported subject that is ignored
by mainstream media. Maybe in due course I will give UFO
reporting a new shot.


Groeten,

Henny







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                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 18:38:20 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 19:03:37 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


 >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:44:57 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Don't expect fair treatment of this subject from major media.
 >>They are programmed to call guys like Joe Nickell.

 >Ever actually talk to a reporter, Editor or News Director, Sam?
 >They are programmed to get two sides, even though there is often
 >only one serious side, and more often many sides, but it's just
 >too complicated or will take too much time.

Hi Bob and Sam,


I have been a journalist for eight years now and when I write an
article I like to hear and quote both sides. However, to say
that this is normal journalistic practise goes too far. Under the
influence of television, a fast and low threshold medium, there
exists a tendency among editors to go for shorter articles,
snapshot impressions and human interest content.

As far as UFO reporting is concerned, in the last five years I
made three attempts to publish an article in a mainstream
magazine. In all three cases my aim was to give examples of hard
evidence for the existence of anomalous flying objects. In all
three cases the editors refused. In the same magazines
commentaries by proven debunkers or reporters with a shallow
knowledge of UFO matters were published.

This situation could improve however. The current editor of a
large mainstream magazine here is a believer in UFOs and has
pledged to accept a UFO article written by me if I ever offer
it. Whether he will do this when push comes to shove remains to
be seen however. Editors are political animals. For the time
being I have pushed aside my intent to write on UFOs because I
was tired of running into a brick wall.

However, I have recently agreed on writing an article about the
Echelon system, another under-reported subject that is ignored
by mainstream media. Maybe in due course I will give UFO
reporting a new shot.


Groeten,

Henny







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                The Mathews', Morris & Buckley Bail On UFOIN

From: Tim Mathews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 16:16:59 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 19:09:03 -0500
Subject: The Mathews', Morris & Buckley Bail On UFOIN


Dear All,

As of tonight, 4th February 2000 - the following have
unsubscribed from the UFO Investigator's Network list and will
no longer be associated with it.

Best wishes,

Tim Matthews
Lynda Matthews
Eric Morris
Carolyn Buckley









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                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 17:14:22 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 19:11:40 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


 >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:44:57 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:26:03 -0500 (EST)
 >>Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:43:50 -0500

 >>The sad reality is that there is control of the media.

 ><snip>

 >>Outside of a "paranormal" show or two - rare to find hard news on
 >>the UFO subject without some "spin" from a major TV, Cable
 >>network or major media like the AP, who cancelled a major UFO
 >>investigation story after one of their important reporters spent
 >>a week on it - never got to the media!

 >Dear Sam, All:

 >Not a week goes by without a UFO program, somewhere, on my 60+
 >cable channels.

 >>TV is regulated by the FCC!

 >Content? Since when?

 >>Regarding US Govt/Military UFO involvement, I have spoken to
 >>major network reporters who are afraid to offend the government
 >>and thus lose their jobs.

 >About UFOs? If you really have such information why not reveal
 >their names, publicly? C'mon, just one or two (you did say
 >"reporters", didn't you?), please don't keep us hanging here.

 >What about Watergate? Whitewater? Or what we saw in the last
 >year about the most senior officials in the country?

 >>Don't expect fair treatment of this subject from major media.
 >>They are programmed to call guys like Joe Nickell.

 >Ever actually talk to a reporter, Editor or News Director, Sam?
 >They are programmed to get two sides, even though there is often
 >only one serious side, and more often many sides, but it's just
 >too complicated or will take too much time.

 ><snip>

 >>There is something real and conspiratorial there with
 >>"official" connections and I am not a conspiracy theorist.

 >You obviously find it hard to believe that there are people in
 >the world who would actually disagree with you. Does CSICOP
 >really bother you so much that you think that they must be
 >secret Guv'mnt agents trying to get you?

 >Bob Young


Dear Doctor Bob;

I am afraid that Sam is quite correct. The government controls
everything here in the US of A.  The Gripple Institoot has
invented a special device, which when worn about the head,
prevents the Goobers at Goobermint HQ from dominating our minds.
It's a stainless steel face mask with special inserts made from
various by products of the Grippling processes.  We don't want
to gross anyone out, so we'll not mention just what those by
products are.  There's enough wincing out there already.
However I will tell you this.  Our mask is available for only
$19.95.

However, this being the US of A, where we have no bias, our
stainless steel face mask only comes with White, Anglo-Saxon
features.  This tends to confuse not only the government, but it
also confuses alien abductors.  See, they don't know if they are
abducting white, black, Hispanic or otherwise.  We who wear it -
all rook arike.

Yous - truly in wining,

Jim Mortellaro, CEO
"Old Wines Are Not Our Business"








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                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 17:23:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 01:44:55 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


 >Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:26:03 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@aol.com>
 >Subject: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >The sad reality is that there is control of the media.

<snip>

 >Study the declassified (formerly Top Secret) results of the CIA
 >Robertson Panel of 1952 0r 53? - (much of this is still
 >classified).

I wish I had access to classified CIA materials, Sam. Did I miss
the posting of those still-classified sections? Or do they exist
only in your dreams?

 >Outside of a "paranormal" show or two - rare to find hard news on
 >the UFO subject without some "spin" from a major TV, Cable
 >network or major media like the AP, who cancelled a major UFO
 >investigation story after one of their important reporters spent
 >a week on it - never got to the media!

Others have already pointed out the plethora of UFO shows
available. I'll add that I've spent the last 16 years of my life
as a working journalist here in Canada, in broadcast and print. I
know a lot of people at AP in the U.S. Name the reporter, I'll
ask them myself. It's far more likely the reporter spent a week
looking into UFOs, talked to one too many obvious nutbar or
raving paranoid and decided it wasn't worth the bother. I even
understand. While I enjoy looking into this mysterious topic,
far too many of the people involved are of the lunatic fringe
type. Any reporter who could acquire real, not faked or
imagined, evidence of UFOs, or a government conspiracy to cover
up UFOs, would have their career made. The book offers,
employment opportunities, TV appearances and casual sex from
total strangers would be overwhelming.

And that would just be the first week. And any reporter who was
working on a UFO story and got ordered off by management because
of pressure from above would quit and go to his past employer's
number one competitor to spill the beans on the story that got
them fired.

 >TV is regulated by the FCC!

So what. The Atomic energy industry is also regulated by the
U.S. government. You heard about Three Mile Island, didn't you.
Why wasn't that hushed, it sure didn't do anything good for the
government or the multi-billion nuke energy industry. If the
media were as vulnerable to control from outside sources as you
like to imagine, you'd never hear about automobile recalls in
the news...because General Motors is far more important to
America, overall, than the CIA, never mind the glaring fact that
G-M buys more ad time than the CIA and so is even more important
to broadcasters.

 >Regarding US Govt/Military UFO involvement, I have spoken to
 >major network reporters who are afraid to offend the government
 >and thus lose their jobs.

That fear of offending the government was never more obvious
than when Sam Donaldson was shouting questions at President
Reagan about Iran-Contra, or in Canada, when reporters made fun
of John Turner to his face for weeks on end, while traveling in
Turner's campaign bus and jet during his disastrous federal
election effort.

 >Don't expect fair treatment of this subject from major media.
 >They are programmed to call guys like Joe Nickell, and I am
 >convinced from my questioning him that he is not just a simple
 >ex-magician. There is something real and conspiratorial there
 >with "official" connections and I am not a conspiracy theorist.

Sam, as a veteran journalist, who is currently a news
writer/news producer for the most influential independent TV
station in Canada, I can tell you there is nothing
conspiratorial about the media's behavior about UFOs. First,
show me the proof. Not your pathetic little dreams,
misinterpretations or fantasy... proof. News is a business, like
any other, and if you can't prove it then don't expect people
like myself, who have spent years developing our B.S. detectors
into fine instruments, to fall in line with what you say, simply
because its YOU who says it.

So, since I'm tired of my industry being blamed for everything
from morons who shoot up schools, to the UFO cover-up... a
warning to all:

If you want to slag the media, be specific: Reporter X at
station Y in Yourtown dropped a UFO story by order of (Name a
big shot). A blanket condemnation of the media without details
and I'll personally look the author up at the next UFO
convention and provide them with some very uncomfortable
moments.

One the other hand: Give me the _irrefutable_ proof of UFOs and
I guarantee you, as _any_ working journalist will, the evidence
will be the lead on every newscast on planet Earth within 24
hours.

But frankly Sam, you can't provide it, can you?

Michael J. Woods
Writer/producer
Citypulse News
City-TV


The truth can STAY out there,
send in a good fantasy!









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                          Re: Should Saucers Spin?

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 01:02:18 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 02:11:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?


 >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 10:54:05 +0100
 >From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Some comments to this article; the following URL addresses an
 >event - possibly - taken place in Norway _in 1941/42_ -
 >regarding spinning discs:

 >http://www.ufo.no/english/articles/pre47-1.html

 >with the following excerpt:

 >"Jul/Aug 1941/42; Mary/Nordhordland;

 >Irene Skram and her cousin, saw a silvery disc at about 11
 >o'clock. It sort of rose up out of the ground southeast of the
 >witnesses, about 300 m away. Three grey wisps were trailing the
 >disc, who were _rotating about its own axis_. It ascended slowly
 >to a height of about 100 m, when it seemed to descend slowly
 >again, and the three wisps trailing the disc fell down about 100
 >m north of the witnesses' house. The disc disappeared. Two men,
 >who also saw the disc (the cousin's husband and his friend),
 >went to get the wisps, and brought back three haycocks. There
 >did not appear to be anything odd about the haycocks. They asked
 >their neighbour to the south, and he verified that three
 >haycocks were missing from his property, without them telling
 >him about the disc. The object were seen for about 2 minutes,
 >and its size were about 10 m in diameter. The diameter of each
 >haycock were 12-15 m, and the separation between each were 5-6
 >m.

 >UFO REPORT FORM, 6 Jan 1965.
 >UFO-NYT, 5/1966, 188-9.
 >Bertelsen: UFO-80., 1980, 65.
 >Liljegren: A BIBLIOGRAPHY OF REFERENCES
 >TO UFO INCIDENTS DURING WORLD WAR II.,
 >1987, 8."

 >However, my personal feeling to this is that it's is a hoax, and
 >that everything was "discovered" by reading the Flash Gordon
 >series, or, that the "observers" read about the German
 >saucer-like aircraft in the newspapers and magazines in the
 >early fifties. Their description, fits very well the drawings
 >from these magazines. And, they possibly wanted attention from
 >media.
 >
 >The observers also seem to have reported this incident in 1965;
 >many years after it took place (in 1941/42).


Hi Asgeir, what a quaint saucer story. I have no opinion whether
it was a hoax or not. Having sufficient information was the goal
of all MUFON field investigations I've turned in. Of course I am
indebted to the esteemed Joe Nickell for reminding me of the
significance.

But pray tell, what is a haycock? I'm just an American jew
making music in Berlin and I'm not familiar with that term
(maybe my higher degree is not high enough). They are described
as large as from 12-15m in diameter. Yet, two men who went to
retrieve wisps (I guess they were not folowing the will of the
wisps) instead brought back three haycocks. "There did not seem
to be anything odd about the haycocks".

Well they are sure odd to me. What are they? Are they crop
circles made by the will of the wisps? Suddenly missing from
their property? How could two men bring back three 12-15m
haycocks without there being anything odd about them? How many
trips would that have taken? I guess I'll start digging in my
Oxford Digital Dictionary and my Digital Encyclopedia Brittanica
for what sounds like an old English name for something quite
odd.

Should haycocks be added to the MUFON Field Investigator's
manual?

Josh Goldstein
(I don't know which tongue my cheek is in)










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                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 21:21:44 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 02:53:46 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


 >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 13:43:11 -0500
 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:44:57 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Subject: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:26:03 -0500 (EST)
 >>>Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:43:50 -0500
 >>>Subject: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

 ><snip>

 >>>The sad reality is that there is control of the media.

 ><snip>

 >>>There is something real and conspiratorial there with
 >>>"official" connections and I am not a conspiracy theorist.

 >>You obviously find it hard to believe that there are people in
 >>the world who would actually disagree with you. Does CSICOP
 >>really bother you so much that you think that they must be
 >>secret Guv'mnt agents trying to get you?

 >
 >Dear Bob, Sam, wincers and winced at,

 >Reader's discretion advised.  Following content is politically
 >incorrect.

Dear Serge,

Thank you for the warning.  Docca Kanappy has ceased his usual
warning in the "Subject" area of his posts.  In the past, he
used to write something like, "Warning, Hummer" or "Humor" or
something.  Anyway, it's good that you warned us. (Winces).  I
wish to make just one or two corrections to this post.

 >>Not a week goes by without a UFO program, somewhere, on my 60+
 >>cable channels.

I am certain that Bob misspelled at least one word here.  It
should have read, "Not a week goes by without a UFO _pogrom_
somewhere on my 60+ cable channels."  Not to worry, I do the
same and do so often, especially when I'm wine-ing.

 >Should, in year 2000, Iraqi aircraft systematically violate
 >allied air space, disable military bases and equipment, present
 >far far more technological performance than UN equipment,
abduct >and _put_back_ western citizens by the hundreds, let's
bet that >the UN would give the US card blank to deal with the
matter.  In >the same breath, Congress would be more of a zoo
than it is >actually, Sadam would have his face on every front
page in the >world, and you would have 60+ reports on the event
on your 60+ >cable channels.

 >I understand that there is a difference between the UFO
 >phenomena and Sadam.

Gee, I am sorry, but I cannot agree. From my perspective, the
UFO Abduction phenomena and the Sadam phenomena are quite
identical in nature. Both come in the night and both are
abductors of little kids.  Remember the ambassador's kids he was
trying to show off on CNN?   Huh?

 >After all, UFOs have been at it for more than 50 years and they
 >abduct people by tens of thousands.  Normal then that Congress'
 >zoo yawns, UFOs make front page when debunked or hoaxed, and
 >conspiracy theorists lack any credibility.

 >Sadam is just a desert bully threatening the world petroleum
 >jelly market.

 >The other guys use the freaking petroleum jelly for their rectal
 >probes.

Ah, sorry, another rectal error, but not commonly known amongst
99.9% of the population, even abductees.  As far as I know, I am
not able to recall EVER having petroleum jelly used on any
rectal probe I've ever had.

Although I cannot recall any specific anal probe, now that I
think on it.  However there have been other probes, uh, you
know, on the front of the back side of the pooper....  and I
_do_ recall them probes and stuff and wished the hell somebody
hadda brought the damned Vaseline or maybe KY!

Damned PI of the little bastards.  (Uh, sorry again, I wasn't
whining or anything.  PI means "Politically Incorrect"). Not to
mention damned uncomfortable and very embarrassing.

 >My simple question: who is supposed to prove what?

 >Serge Salvaille

Shoot, Serge, that's easy.  We have to prove everything.  Never
take an abductee at his or her word.  If someone says they've
seen or been abducted by one a them little buggers, it's up to
the complainant to prove it.  It is up to me and all the rest of
us who claim such, to provide the left over radioactive KY
jelly, the anal probes (with or without Vaseline) and pictures
of the entire event.

It would also be preferable to provide signed and notarized
documents testifying to what they did.  Something like:

"I, ugly insectoid lizard turd from the planet Mongo (Santa
Maria) do solemnly swear that I probed Jamey anally and took his
... uh, you know, his - stuff... for purposes of making other
little Jameys only with bigger heads and more slanted eyes.
However I shall not disclose whether them eyes has a film over
them or is just au naturale, eh?"

Well, barring such a revelation from the insectoids, "I, the
artist formerly known as 'Jamey,' do solemnly swear that I
recall having been - uh - you know, by the little bastards.  And
I am not whining or anything, but I ain't got no proof.  Just
memories. Sorry, but it'll just have to do. It's the best I can
do.  Is that the best _you_ can do?"

J.Jaime Gesundt, CEO, Gripple Whinery








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 5

                    Re: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2)

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 22:51:52 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 03:06:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2)


 >Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 23:39:01 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <Alintelbot@aol.com>
 >Subject: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2)
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >Q. What's the hurry, then?  Supposing we discover that there
 >really is an extinct civilization on Mars, does it particularly
 >matter how quickly this information is imparted?

Can we be so confident to exclude non-extinct civilizations on
Mars?

 >A. We argue that a responsible scientific dialogue between NASA
 >and qualified anomaly researchers be implemented as quickly as
 >possible.

 >Documents such as the Brookings Report, which advises NASA re.
 >the potential discovery of alien artifacts in our solar system,
 >are founded on the "War of the Worlds" mentality: faced with the
 >presence of a nonhuman (and superior) intelligence, humanity
 >will suffer a debilitating existential shock.  The Brookings
 >Report, in particular, advises NASA to handle the evidence in
 >secret in order to avoid or allay a social cataclysm.

Although the Cydonia site seems to be the focus of many for
possible evidence of alien structures on Mars, it is not the
only one by far.  My favourite is the infrared image of Mars
taken by the Phobos 2 spaceprobe in 1989 which seems to reveal
an underground Martian city from its radiated heat.  Dr. John
Becklake of the London Science Museum is quoted as saying "The
city-like pattern is 60 kilometers wide and could be easily
mistaken for an aerial view of Los Angeles.".

Although few doubt that life exists elsewhere in the universe,
we have long been taught that Earth is the only place in our
solar system with life.  Now NASA scientists have accepted that
it is very probable that life will be found much closer to home
on some of our solar system's planets and their moons and from
what the principal investigator for NASA's Viking lander search
for life experiment continues to say, NASA found life on Mars
back in 1976, well before the historic fossil microbes in a Mars
rock announcement a few years ago.

 >There is little doubt that we would indeed be in for something
 >of a shock if alien structures were discovered on Mars.

<snip>

Not a year goes by that previously unknown structures and even
cities are discovered here on Earth, many previously hidden by
desert sands, jungle vegetation or under metres of water so why
should we be shocked to find such things on worlds we know very
little about compared to our own world?

Nick Balaskas









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   Feb > Feb 5

                          Filer's Files #05 -- 2000

From: Majorstar@aol.com
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 22:15:51 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 03:12:09 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #05 -- 2000



Filer's Files #05 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,  Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
February 6, 2000,  Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020
Web Site at www.filersfiles.com. -- Chuck Warren Webmaster.

ALMOST EVERYTHING YOU'RE TOLD IS WRONG:

ENVIRONMENTAL SPACE SCIENCES is a book written by Professor and
Colonel Donald G. Carpenter who was the originator of the Space
Science Course taught at the USAF Academy.  He also served as
the Commander of the SPACETRACK Radar Site at Shemya, Alaska.
Colonel Carpenter was kind enough to send Eastern MUFON the
book he edited and wrote with six other officers.  He questions
some of the laws of physics if we assume UFOs are real.  The
last chapter of his book is titled Unidentified Flying Objects
and reads in part.

"It is obvious that intensive scientific study is needed in
this area; no such study has yet been undertaken at the
necessary levels of intensity needed.  Something that must be
guarded against in any such study is the trap of implicitly
assuming that our knowledge of Physics (or any other branch of
science) is complete.  An example of one such trap is selecting
a group of physical laws, which we now accept as valid, and
assume that they will never be superseded.  Five such laws
might be:

1. Every action must have an opposite and equal reaction.

2. Every particle in the universe attracts every other particle
with a force proportional to the product of the masses and
inversely as the square of the distance.

3. Energy, mass and momentum are conserved.

4. No material body can have a speed as great as c, the speed
of light in free space.

5. The maximum energy, E, which can be obtained from a body at
rest is E=mc2, where m is the rest mass of the body.

Laws numbered 1 and 3 seem fairly safe, but let us hesitate and
take another look. Actually, law number 3 is only valid (now)
from a relativistic viewpoint; and for that matter so are laws
4 and 5.  But relativity completely revised these physical
concepts after 1915, before then Newtonian mechanics were
supreme.  We should also note that general relativity has not
yet been verified.  Thus we have the peculiar situation of five
laws which appear to deny the possibility of intelligent alien
control of UFO's, yet three of the laws are recent in concept
and may not even be valid.  Also, law number 2 has not yet been
tested under conditions of large relative speeds or
accelerations.  We should not deny the possibility of alien
control of UFO's on the basis of preconceived notions not
established as related or relevant to the UFO's.  Pages
690-691.

The NEW SCIENTIST article "SEEDS OF LIFE" January 22, 2000,
reports, "The building blocks of DNA could have formed in space
before the Earth was born, providing a starter kit of genetic
material for life to evolve rapidly on Earth, claim
astro-chemists in India.  Their computer models of chemicals
evolving in space may explain why life emerged only 600 million
years after the Earth formed 4.5 billion years ago.  The model
also suggests that comets are packed with the building blocks
of life.  If true, it backs up the idea that comets seed when
they smash into planets.  Sandip Chakrabarti and his wife
Sonali at the S. N. Bose National Centre for Basic Sciences in
Calcutta modeled how chemicals would evolve in an interstellar
cloud collapsing under gravity over a million years.  The model
began with a typical cloud 7 light years across, containing a
dozen elements including hydrogen, carbon, oxygen and nitrogen.
The computer worked out the variations and at the end of the
simulation, the cloud was littered with adenine predicting
Earth would have been showered with millions of tons of the
DNA.  "DNA produced in the collapsing cloud could have
contaminated the Earth," the Chakrabartis will report in the
journal Astronomy and Astrophysics. "There should be many such
planets in each galaxy where DNA-based life should flourish."
(But the idea remains controversial since it shoots holes in
the Theory of Evolution, that life started by accident on
Earth.)

Tom Millar of the University of Manchester Institute of Science
and Technology, database of chemical reactions formed the basis
of the new work.  British researchers who suggested in 1977,
that the ingredients of life originated in space and were
dispersed by comets are delighted by the Indian findings. "It's
yet another indication that the chemical feedstock of life
could be produced throughout the Universe, and nothing on Earth
would reproduce that grandeur of scale," says Chandra
Wickramasinghe of the University of Wales at Cardiff, who
suggested the idea along with his colleague Fred Hoyle.  Thanks
to: "Mark A. LeCuyer" <randydan@wavetech.net>

DNA MOLECULES MAY BE FROM SPACE

Colin Jordan writes concerning your FF-#4, Dr. Francis Crick
won the Nobel Prize for helping to discover 'the structure of
DNA,' the master molecule of life.  He now believes that the
'origin of life' was from space.  I was doing some reading
recently and came across some surprising statements from Dr.
Crick, made more remarkable still given his professional
achievements.  I think there is a prejudice among scientists
regarding current evolutionary theories.  Many of them have
spent their careers considering the theory to be scientific
fact and are loath to let that go.  Their need to cling to that
theory at all costs smacks more of faith than science.  Besides
the evidence that there was but a single genetic code, there is
also the issue of so-called "simple" cell complexity.  Crick
wanted to determine the probability that even a single molecule
of DNA could come into existence by chance.  The probability
for transition from inanimate to animate would be ten to the
40,000 th power.  Mathematically speaking, anything above ten
to the 50th power is considered statistically impossible,
because the sum total of all the electrons in the universe is
only ten to the fifty-second power.  Apparently the average
biological scientist is more concerned with not being wrong
rather than discovering what is true.  cjordan@gte.net (Colin
Jordan)

Red Setter writes, "People today are very poor at real
thinking: whether in astronomy, evolution, physics, UFOs, etc.
We are no more correct than in Galileo's day, yet many
scientists tell me that "we know so much that we can't be
wrong!"  And friends can't believe there is any real UFO
phenomenon, or else "the press would have reported it!"  So
don't worry if they criticize you, because their brains are
programmed by intensive indoctrination.  See the new book
"Galileo's Daughter" by Dava Sobel.  "It claims it was
academics that persecuted Galileo, not the Church."  Thanks to
Red Setter.


CONNECTICUT UFO

My friend and I went out to a club, then  stopped for McDonalds
on the way home on January 15, 2000.  We arrived home around
2:45 AM and pulled into her drive way.  Since it was very cold,
I asked her to keep her car running so we could wait inside
until my car warmed up.  I got out of her car, and started my
car.  As I got back into her car, I noticed a bright light went
on.  I thought it was her house flood lights turning on
automatically. The next thing we remember was that it was 2
hours and 45 minutes later, Neither of us had a clue as to what
happened, except for the fact we both were unconscious for
almost 3 hours.  Both of our cars were still running and
neither of us had any physical evidence of abduction.  We were
not drunk nor on drugs. The next day, I told a friend my story
and they checked my neck and back and found a small circle of
five punctures in my upper back/lower neck.  I was told that
this was common in abductions.  I am afraid for my well being.
Thanks to Peter Davenport and the National UFO Reporting Center
www.ufocenter.com


TENNESSEE DISC FADES IN AND OUT

BRENTWOOD -- On January 10, 2000, I saw an unidentified flying
object at about 500 feet altitude above the Brentwood Middle
School at 9:15 AM.  As I drove along I had a totally
unobstructed view of this object about 1/2 a mile away until
Murray Lane became divided by a tree line.  As I drove along
the object appeared to be keeping pace with the speed of my
car.  The object then faded out of sight. The UFO had no wings,
was silver pewter in color, and made no noise.  After turning
left onto Franklin Road I saw it again as it flew pacing my car
at the exact same distance and altitude.  I had a totally
unobstructed view of the UFO as it flew low over a farmer's
field.  Again the object faded from my view, then three seconds
later reappeared.  I watched this object for another 12
seconds, until it faded from view for the last time. There also
seemed to be an aura or hazy like disturbance in the air around
the craft each time it faded from view.  Thanks to Peter
Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com


FLORIDA

CLEARWATER -- Nimlok writes,  "A few years ago, I was sitting
on the back porch of my parents house having a party with four
other relatives."  It was around 8:30 PM, a very hot but clear
night.  All of a sudden, we all jumped to our feet and watched
a UFO land right behind our house in a huge orange grove.  I
saw the bright lights and colors.  The others described it as a
"sphere" that had multi colored chasing lights around the band
of the UFO.  It made no noise and then just vanished into thin
air.  My aunt, uncle and grandfather all saw this at the same
time.  We jumped into our cars hoping to get another glimpse,
but it was gone. Geographically, we are in a perfect position
for these sightings and most people around this area have seen
something strange. Thanks to Tiffany Stratton


ALABAMA COUPLE SEES UFO

TILLMANS CORNER - On December 28, 1999, Lynn L. and her husband
were outdoors in Southern Alabama when they saw a UFO.  "My
husband and I were looking at the moon, and saw what we thought
was a moving star.  I got out of the car and looked at it.  Two
large bright lights were in front, with a red light in the
middle.  "It wasn't a plane, since it flew over us at a very
slow speed, and made no sound" Lynn added, "The object was at
an altitude of about 1,200 feet and was triangular in shape,
with green and red lights." The aft-end was huge.  "It looked
like the were two big shapes on either end of it in the back."
After the couple drove home, she added, "Strange things
happened later that night in my house."  "I know it sounds
strange but a houseplant that I'd had for years turned up
missing that same night.  It just disappeared."  Lynn found the
flowerpot, but the plant and the pot's soil were missing.
Hillmans Corner is eleven miles south of Mobile. Thanks to UFO
Roundup Vol. 5 #5 2/3,/00 Joseph Trainor editor
Masinaigan@aol.com


ILLINOIS UFO INVESTIGATION CONTINUES

I called Peter Davenport at the National UFO Reporting Center
and spoke with John Alexander at National Institute for
Discovery Science (NIDS).  Their investigation has now located
eight witnesses who observed the UFO in Southern Illinois east
of St. Louis.  Some of the police were chasing the UFO at
speeds up to, 80 mph.  The UFO moved very slowly at an
estimated 20 mph.  Then suddenly streaked 8 miles in 3 seconds,
according to the witnesses.  Craig Stevens in Milstadt saw it
to the west of him seem to suddenly jump twenty to thirty
miles.  Assuming the witnesses were correct the craft moved at
9600 mph.  The object was described as like a guitar pick with
panel of lights red or pinkish lights.  The aft-end of the
craft was lit up indicating some type of the propulsion system.

Kenny Young interviewed Craig Stevens from the Millstadt Police
Department.  Craig said, "I was the Officer in Millstadt that
witnessed the object at 4:28 AM on January 5, 2000."    #1 - I
feel that the testimony of four possibly five police officers
is very credible, considering that we are trained observers.
Our credibility has to be justifiable since we testify in a
court of law.  We watch things on a daily basis, and have to
report our findings in evidence, and reports.  I feel I have
done this by attempting to capture the photo that morning, and
immediately returning to the department to report my findings
in a report, and making a drawing.  Sketches of the object are
shown on the NIDS web site at http://www.accessnv.com/nids.
For detailed investigation, sketches, route of flight see this
excellent report.  Thanks to Kenny Young, John Alexander and
Peter Davenport who have all done excellent work on this case.


CALIFORNIA FLYING TRIANGLE

EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE -- Billy Dee reports that a witness
writes, "Sightings seem to be picking up again.  Although.  I'm
wondering if it has anything to do with the airliner going down
off the coast.  The last time it was real active here was when
the Egyptian airliner went down.  On January 31, 2000, I saw
another large triangular craft over the base.  It was outlined
with several very bright, non-blinking, red lights.  Just like
the last one, this one tilted to a completely vertical position
and flew like this for quite some time.  It then rotated back
to horizontal, flew back and forth, and then descending
straight down.  Last night, I was watching a fighter over the
base, when I noticed two dimly lit objects about a quarter of a
mile in front of it.  These objects were moving very
erratically, back and forth, and up and down.  The fighter
appeared to maintain a steady distance behind them as they
circled the base.  I lost sight of the objects briefly behind a
tree, but could still see the fighter's lights through the
tree.  I then saw the two objects coming out from behind the
tree, still moving erratically.  They suddenly got very bright,
changing from an amber color to a bluish white, and literally
shot out of sight to the north over the base. They disappeared
in less than a second.  The fighter did some tight maneuvering,
circled around a couple of times, and then landed.  Because of
these two sightings, I'll be out again tonight, and well keep
you informed.  God bless. Thanks to BillyDee@ufossi.org.


ROBED HOODED ALIENS

Darlene writes, "Please tell me if the suggested responses to
contacts of this type are of the "tongue-in-cheek" variety or
just plain sarcasm.  Unless I'm denser than I think I am, I can
not see why there would be meteorite powder, silicon or other
residue left behind by visitation; nor can I believe that such
acts as contacting the police or contacting newspapers, etc.,
would produce anything but disbelief, and ridicule.  Thanks to
dcs

Editors' Notes: Thanks for your note; Well sometimes a little
ridicule gives you a boost of courage.  I go on radio several
times a week, and I'm often ridiculed over my research.  To my
knowledge not one abductee has ever contacted the police or
their congressman about their abductions.  When I talk to
police they act very interested and claim they would enjoy such
a case.  We have numerous police and military officers joining
MUFON and other organizations hoping to find answers.  Both
Derrel Simms and my investigators have found silver powder on
abductees.  We have noticed other anomalies indicating evidence
is being left behind.  For any of us to be believed we need
evidence.  We now have thousands of tape recordings of
abductee's stories, but without real solid evidence they are
considered interesting dreams.  We have stayed up all night
watching abductee homes, spent hours video taping,
interviewing, discussing, watching videos, but little real
tangible evidence has been obtained.  We are aware the
abductees seem programmed to destroy the evidence.

Many investigators spend their time and efforts as unpaid
volunteers trying to solve this mystery.  If I pick up the
phone and make long distance call, drive to an abductee's home,
video tape, it costs both time and money.  I encourage
abductees to collect evidence or call experts in for help.  We
have indications that some abductees may be harmed during an
abduction.  This can be checked with a blood tests and a
physician's examination.  Most abductees will not get tested,
despite the fact they have insurance coverage.  There are
indications that black light can pick up a silver like powder
left behind, and other tiny objects.  If you give credence to
Dr. David Jacobs from Temple University the future of the human
race may be at stake.  I don't think its funny, and I'm not
poking fun.  The craft in my opinion are real.  We may not be
sure what their aircrews are doing here.  However, they are
spending in real terms billions of dollars, their time and
health to be here. I wonder why?  I don't think it is a game
for either side.  More definitive research is needed.


MARS POLAR LANDER CERTIFICATE

Aaron G. Crossley, Jr. writes, "My name is included in a data
tape that was sent to Mars aboard NASA's Polar Lander.  MSFC
passed around a signup sheet for names to be put on the Mars
Polar Lander.  The requirement was that you had to be 18 or
under to get your name on the tape so I signed up.  Kind of
makes you wonder are Martians reading my name off a datatape as
we speak?  Thanks to Aaron G. Crossley, Jr
"Raverkid@earthlink.net" You can see Aron's  Certificate at:
http://www.filerfiles.com/


AUSTRALIA FLYING TRIANGLE

ENDEAVOR HILLS -- VICTORIA -- Peter Ho reports he saw a large V
shaped UFO on January 2, 2000.  Peter went outside to feed his
dogs his 10:50 PM and decided to relax and do a bit of
stargazing, He noticed a large, solid black V shaped object
blocking out the Big Dipper constellation.  There were dim
orange lights along the front of the object.  He could hear no
sounds.  Peter estimates it was five times bigger than a Jumbo
Jet.  He sighted the object for four seconds before it
disappeared from view.  Thanks to Alice Mitchell AUFORN Keith
Basterfield Network Australia


SOUTH VIETNAM UNDERWATER UFO

GULF OF SIAM -- Joseph Foster writes, "In mid April of 1970, we
were anchored four miles off shore on the US Coast Guard Cutter
Mellon.  The Captain authorized swim call in the late afternoon
and I had the watch with a M-16 rifle on the flying bridge to
guard for sharks.  The swimming party was diving off the main
deck into the water and swimming to a raft. Eight of us and the
Captain were watching the 20 swimmers when our attention was
drawn to a large underwater object, that slowly moved directly
under the ship. The object was an elliptical shaped dark
shadow, that was by our estimate was 90 feet in length and 30
feet wide.  It was about 50 feet deep and moving perpendicular
to the axis of our ship.  The entire sighting lasted no more
than 20 or 30 seconds. The men in the water had no idea that a
large object cruised directly under them. We ruled out whale
shark or whale because there was no gyration of a tail or any
other appendages visible.

Our crew also had other UFO sightings.  During our July, we
sere on Ocean Station Victor patrol, when we had radar contact
with three targets traveling at speeds in excess of 3000 mph
halfway between Midway Island and Japan.  Eight crewman saw
three white lights traveling southwest in a 'v' formation. A
sitrep report was filed.  Our second sighting took place in May
of 1970 while we were 600 miles east of Guam.  One of my duties
as Quartermaster was celestial navigation.  On the 4 - 8 shift,
I had to shoot morning and evening stars.  I was with the
Captain 'shooting' the stars, when we noticed a bright shiny
perfect sphere that seemed to have the consistency of liquid
mercury. The object was traveling west southwest at 100 knots
at an altitude of 2500 feet.

In Honolulu, I made friends with a Fleet Intelligence Yeoman,
who stated, "We receive thousands of UFO reports from US Navy
ships."  UFOs come in and out of the water and fly directly in
front of our ships.  Thanks to Joseph Foster
miilennium@home.com and Carl W. Feindt  at WATERUFO@prodigy.


WINDOW IN OUTER SPACE

R. G. Nicholas writes, "My girlfriend and I were lying on the
hood of my car, just looking at the stars quietly on calm,
clear, beautiful starlit night.  I noticed four stars spaced
evenly apart from each other like the points at the corner's of
a window, it was a perfect square in space.  All at once a
light appeared at the lower right star and swiftly moved
diagonally up to the upper left corner star.  Within seconds it
just as quickly returned to whence it had come.  It moved
really fast for the amount of area it had to cover between
point A and point B.  I'm sure it traveled from star to star,
and those objects that I saw traverse that amount of distance
that night were not from earth.  I'll never forget it because I
was wide-awake and 100% sober.  Thanks to: NicholasRG


CHINA HAS FIRST UFO OF THE NEW MILLENNIUM

UFOs kicked off the New Millennium with the surprise appearance
of a daylight disc on New Year's Day.  At about 6:30 a.m.
Beijing time on Saturday, January 1, 2000, a silver-gray UFO
appeared over the Great Wall of China.  It hovered, and was
captured by Cable News network (CNN) TV cameras and broadcast
live in the USA.  Eyewitness M. Lamb was watching the CNN
coverage "when CNN showed a shot of the Great Wall of China at
sunrise. When they cut to the shot, there was a gray orb
floating over the wall.  Then it floated to the right, then up.
CNN cut away from the shot without any explanation of the
floating object.  It was silver and appeared to float or glide
without any means of propulsion."

Taiwan Radar is reporting that they have been picking up
Unidentified Flying Objects coming from China towards Taiwan at
around 24,000 feet.  The latest report was on January 29, 2000,
creating new tensions in the region.  The objects that may be
balloons could create a threat to commercial traffic.  Thanks
to swduncan@netzero.net (stefan duncan)


CAUS WINS FIRST ROUND IN UFO CASE

Citizens Against UFO Secrecy (CAUS) announced that, in a
stunning and surprising defeat for the government and its
proponents of secrecy, a US District Court Judge in Phoenix,
Arizona, rebuked a Department of Defense attempt to deny a
group of UFO activists the opportunity to argue its case in
court.  In the federal lawsuit, Judge Stephen M. McNamee,
ignoring Department of Defense plea to dismiss the case
outright, set February 7th at 10:00 a.m. for arguments on the
adequacy of the government's search for information about an
unusual aerial object.  Thanks to Peter A. Gersten;
ufolawyer@caus.org.


SHUTTLE SPOTS UFO

Investigator Tom Sheets writes, "I just reviewed the tape of a
June 1999, shuttle mission footage that was sent me via ISUR.
There is a shockingly dramatic event on there that makes all
the other shuttle stuff (STS-48 and 80) look like fireflies.
There is a BIG glowing orb that flies by one of the solar
panels of either the space station or a satellite (the SS I
think, we need a space 'expert' to look at it).  This thing
must be huge; it is obviously glowing brightly, seemingly
round, you can almost see the disc shape, and seems to give off
glowing propulsion like contrail.  I don't think it's a meteor,
this is in orbit, not in the atmosphere, but I could be wrong
if distance to the object is great and shot was from above.  I
need some more opinions.  It was from the June shuttle mission.
There are many other smaller objects on parts of the tape,
stuff like on STS-48 and 80 footage.  One video of note shows a
large glowing orb comes into the frame, the astronaut starts to
use zoom on it, and the controller switches away.  Thank to
Toms Sheets ISUR Board Member.  Editor's Note: We are trying to
get some of these videos on our web site.  They look like UFOs
to me, but further analysis is needed.


PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO shots available and
data on their propulsion systems. $10.00

BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT -- All real
estate agents are not the same?  Some real estate agents or
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Others are experts with an excellent experience and
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for you before you make any important financial decisions on
one your biggest investments!  Remember, the majority of people
do not know the right questions to ask, and what pit falls can
cause major problems.  Picking the right real estate agent can
be a wonderful experience, and picking the wrong one can be a
big mistake that can waste your time and cost you thousands!
Find out, "What you need to understand before hiring any real
estate agent!"  These are the questions that many agents do not
want you to ask.  Learn how you can obtain the best real estate
agent for your needs.  To get a free copy of this report, just
call (609) 654-0020 or e-mail us at Majorstar@aol.com. We can
also help you with your own or corporate Worldwide Relocation
to Australia, Benelux, Canada, Cayman Islands, England, France,
Guam, Hong Kong, Israel, Japan, Mexico, New Zealand, Northern
Ireland, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Puerto Rico, and all 50
states of the United States.  We also have help with associates
that speak languages other than their native tongue.


MUFON UFO JOURNAL For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe by contacting Mufon@aol.com. Mention I
recommended you for membership.  Filer's Files is Copyrighted
2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
items from the Files on their Web Sites provided that they
credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date
of issue that the item appeared.  Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com.  Sending mail automatically grants
permission for us to publish, becomes property of these files.
Please state if you wish to keep your name or story
confidential.  Be healthy and succeed!















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   Feb > Feb 5

                          Re: Should Saucers Spin?

From: Victor J.Kean <VICTOR_J_KEAN@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 03:11:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 07:56:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?


 >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 01:02:18 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 10:54:05 +0100
 >>From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >>Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >But pray tell, what is a haycock?

Hi Josh,

According to the Encyclopedia Brittanica (Dictionary)

Haycock n (13c): a somewhat rounded conical pile of hay

As a mature Englishman, also living in Berlin, I have never
heard this term.

Regards,

Victor J.Kean
Project FT














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   Feb > Feb 5

                          Re: Should Saucers Spin?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 02:04:26 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 10:13:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?


 >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 01:02:18 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 10:54:05 +0100
 >>From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >>Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >>Irene Skram and her cousin, saw a silvery disc at about 11
 >>o'clock. It sort of rose up out of the ground southeast of the
 >>witnesses, about 300 m away. Three grey wisps were trailing the
 >>disc, who were _rotating about its own axis_. It ascended slowly
 >>to a height of about 100 m, when it seemed to descend slowly
 >>again, and the three wisps trailing the disc fell down about 100
 >>m north of the witnesses' house. The disc disappeared. Two men,
 >>who also saw the disc (the cousin's husband and his friend),
 >>went to get the wisps, and brought back three haycocks. There
 >>did not appear to be anything odd about the haycocks. They asked
 >>their neighbour to the south, and he verified that three
 >>haycocks were missing from his property, without them telling
 >>him about the disc. The object were seen for about 2 minutes,
 >>and its size were about 10 m in diameter. The diameter of each
 >>haycock were 12-15 m, and the separation between each were 5-6
 >>m.

<snip>

 >Should haycocks be added to the MUFON Field Investigator's
 >manual?

Dear Josh:

One of my oldest friends is a Jewish musician, and I forwarded
your question to him.  He was from Michigan originally, and I'm
sure there are more haycocks out there than in Berlin.

Then, (silly me) I looked in my trusty 1956 edition Websters New
Collegiate dictionary and actually found it!

Haycock is given as a conical pile of hay. 12-15 meters sounds
awfully large to me, but what do I know?

It must be terribly difficult piling up that much hay into a
nice cone shape instead of an old fashioned heap. Surely they
have better things to do.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

- -










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   Feb > Feb 5

                            Alfred's Odd Ode #337

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 06:37:08 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 10:16:17 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #337


Apology to MW #337 (For February 5, 2000)

Love's our sweetest tragedy. It's fragile and abused. One takes
it (as it's rarely found), and is beat up and confused. It's
carved in stone with bleeding knives, it dances on the wind. It
makes a burden easier, or it adds to it my friend. It comes in
tastes and flavors that may dance upon the tongue, or may fill
your mouth with ashes if a heart is torn and flung.

It gleams in different colors that we break up into grades. It's
red-hot, warm, or golden, it endures, or dulls and fades. They
call the red-hot "carnal" (it's the marrow in your bones); the
warmth is known as "philos" (it's a higher octane, Holmes); If
golden, it's "agape" -- the highest form of love. It's selfless
and it's perfect -- and the rarest (push to shove).

It takes all three to make us whole -- to make us more complete,
but we would judge its value, and would qualify its reach! Oh,
this is where we HUGELY err! We dictate and pronounce. We
ridicule, demean, and shame. We disqualify -- denounce. We
prohibit and we cancel, and we legislate our drives. We
complicate the issue and select our sad despised. We *append* to
sex and preference, connotation gone awry -- and we give it
lessor value like we *know* the reason why.

Now I don't write with scented inks. I'm just not wired that
way. I'm making no apology, and showing distance Dave, but I
have listed those I've met (in decade's <factor five>); I see
they're not the problem, they're a blessing -- that's no jive.

They're not all gay -- some movie stars, the poets and the
clowns, musicians and the artists, and the dancers of renown.
They're not ALL gay --philanthropers, philosophers, or mimes --
the nurses tending selflessly, the sports folk of our times.
They're not all gay -- the stylists who decorate the day, or
work out all the detail in a layout they have made. But where's
the twin admission that would keep us most contented? That here
they are the lion's share, and so OVER represented!

I think of all the people with an impact on my life, and find
most are the gay blades that have qualified my pride. These are
teachers, artists, -- leaders, and some friends I, too late,
made. They are pilots, soldiers, warriors -- it's to them my
pride is paid.

In parades of my existence, when the dues are finally in, I owe
a little gratitude -- a little loyalty, my friend. I wished I'd
spoke up sooner, so that you'd have had more VOICE. I regret
that I belittled you when I thought you had some choice. I see
your contribution. I acknowledge right to *be*. I make no value
judgement; I just want you to be free.

If much of the abducted are, in fact (heh!), mostly gay, then a
better class of people swells the ranks of them, I'd say! It's
there -- is more intelligence. It's there, is greater style, and
more imagination, more artistry, and smiles. It's there, there
is more gracefulness, and (Yes!) the warmest kind of love. It's
there, there are more butterflies, more humming birds, and
doves. It's THERE a better world resides, the one that should be
made . . . as hearts are opened up to find our bills have NOT
been paid. If true, no condemnation -- no indictment is
returned. If true there is no reason to assign some blame or
spurn. If true (?), yes, CELEBRATION that the best's included
where . . . we have the need for TALENT; where we're NEEDING
them is there.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

My credulity stunned, I regard the ominous silence.

I'd rather embrace choice, tolerance (diversity as an
intellectual force multiplier), and love, in all its shades and
grades -- forgetting for a moment that its PROHIBITION (biblical
or otherwise), and foundationless persecution are so much
specious nonsense. Gay mote, I don't just tolerate your
existence, I celebrate it. Your contribution seems to far, far
outweigh your detriment. Live, be, and do.

Restore John Ford.

--
~~~~
EXPLORE Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL.
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/
                  **<Updated 5 February>**
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/witches/237/lehmberg.html

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got theirs) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at the
fundamentalist's stake.









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   Feb > Feb 5

                  Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 13:38:39 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 10:19:56 -0500
Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip


Regarding:

 >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:56:17 -0500
 >From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Steve wrote:

 >>Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:59:07 -0600
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >I would point out that radiation suits would have been different
 >than bio-hazard suits, which I believe these were meant to
 >represent. Many of the points you raise are still valid, but
 >we're discussing a suit that hasn't really been identified...


Steve,

It's maybe worth mentioning some little known material, if only
for the record.

On the former CompuServe UFO forum, Joe Stefula stated that the
'bio-hazard' suits were possibly protection covers used in
refuelling operations. Joe cited his source as a retired
Sergeant at the Army Chemical Museum.

It could be this isn't correct and the 'bio-hazard' suits merely
resemble same. No reason, so far as I'm aware, why the suits
weren't just 'made up' with the objective of hiding our
participants identities.

If anyone could locate photographs of such equipment in use
during 1947, it would be interesting to know. Alternatively, if
it could be proven these were authentic, protective suits which
dated later than purported, that would obviously be significant.

Given that our presumed/accepted hoaxers were so methodical in
other aspects - the 'contemporary' electrical sockets, medical
etc. equipment and other props - it seems unlikely they would
use 'fire resistant' clothing which was more recent.

Robert Irving noted how he visited a London 'medical props'
company and was easily able to locate 'circa 1947' equipment,
consistent with what is depicted in the film. I wonder what
these specialist prop companies would be able to offer if we
asked for 'protective suits' from that era.


 >I found it quite interesting that SFX people all viewed it as a
 >fake that they could have done better

Absolutely not true!

As I've pointed out before, if you look at what the more
detailed SFX analysis actually states (it is a requirement to
study the footage, which not all SFX 'experts' have done), it's
extraordinarily complementary.

We only have to cite the filmed assessment of Stan Winston and
colleagues, to prove that the industry's leading studio was
initially stunned and bewildered by the 'autopsy' footage.

This SFX footage perplexed the very best; don't let anyone tell
you otherwise.

One experienced opinion, which won't be familiar, concluded:

"I and many of my friends have built 'fake' creatures for years.
I have worked for Stan Winston as well as Rick Baker (don't let
the 'Jurassic Park' hype fool you, Rick is still the best ) over
the years.

Here are just some thoughts that occur to a 'creature' person
IMHO:

- The body looked real good. If it is a fake it was very
expensive. If it was fabricated, it was most likely made in
England within the last 4-5 years.

- The skin being pulled back was especially impressive.

- If it is fake, the props person gets an 'A'.

- The cuts made in the body were very convincing, from an FX
standpoint. The subdermal fluids were very convincing. These can
be a very difficult thing to chase on set, nearly every
substance we use dries out under the lights.

[...]

As you can see, nothing I saw from an effects standpoint,
screamed 'FAKE' or 'REAL'. This film is wonderfully ambiguous.

[...]

As for now I'm sitting on the fence".
[End]

So, there was at least one experienced creature effects artist
who had worked with the top studios and remained uncertain if
some 18 minutes of film was a SFX fake.

As Stan Winston also initially commented:

"My initial reaction when I first saw the piece was that it was
not real, that it was a body that someone created as a prop...
and we started the autopsy and actually cutting this body
open... and knowing how difficult it is for us in the live
effects work to actually simulate cutting skin, I started
looking at it and saying to myself, if in fact this isn't real,
I would be real proud of creating an image like that myself,
today...

[...]

You see how uniform the blood is on the inside surface of the
skin and the amount of dripage down the side where it's
uniformly wet on the inside? ...I mean, we never were able to do
that.

  [...]

The point is, if we did this, I'd be pretty proud of it.

[...]

This really felt like a real body that was being cut open.
Nothing about this thing feels funny".
[End]

Quite nonsensical. How could a purported 'obviously' fake film
justify such intrigue from the SFX guru whose company was
responsible for the groundbreaking effects in 'Jurassic Park' I
and II, 'Terminator 2', 'Aliens', etc. and is a recipient of
several Academy awards.

It should set in perspective why those of us who actually
examined the overall evidence recognised it was far from being a
straightforward hoax.


However, there has been no factual refutation of Theresa's
meticulous illustration of the evidence which proves our footage
is, as expected, a clever ruse. Having seen all of Theresa's
data, including the photographic stills and video she produced,
I can't find any flaws in her analysis. If I could find an
explanation for any of the damning anomalies highlighted, I'm
sure Theresa would be more pleased than anyone.

Bottom line - there's evidently no question that the 'alien
autopsy' footage as we know it, like the 'tent footage' which
Ray did promote as genuine, isn't authentic imagery from 1947.
Moreso the brief, token 'Roswell debris' film, a later addition
to the published 'alien' footage and drawing exclusively on the
mythical Roswell 'I-beams with hieroglyphics'.

Also keep in mind that the claim of 'a few problem reels' being
held back for processing was disproved when I illustrated how
almost all of the 'autopsy' footage which could have existed is
in the video. See:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/voyager/aa_qa.htm


Still, at the root of it all, there seems to actually have been
some 'old' film, supposedly connected with 'Roswell', or
'aliens', which Ray Santilli did in fact acquire, have
transferred to video and apparently believed was genuine.

No question that there's evidence to support this and maybe I'm
the only one who has spotted the tangible clues.


For those who retain an interest in the story, the imminent next
'Voyager' newsletter will highlight significant new developments
which might be homing in on where the published film did in
truth originate.


James.










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   Feb > Feb 5

                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 07:23:16 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 11:32:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:16:17 -0400
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:58:16 -0800
 >>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Of course you gather wrong, but that is nothing new. Your
 >persisted with insisting certain MJ-12 documents were frauds
 >because they lacked  TOP SECRET Control numbers despite two
 >archivists saying not so and my having published several that
 >didn't.

You continue your intellectual dishonesty by  failure to quote
in context and misrepresenting what has been said in the past
which I maintain to this date and have posted documentation
supporting those positions. Two such examples from  message

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m04-017.shtml

   The fact these Top Secret
   documents don't have control numbers indicates that proper
   procedures were not followed and are suggestive that the
   documents are either breaches of security, as previously
   explained, or bogus.

and from message
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m03-005.shtml

STF

 >I think Ed would have us believe that if there are no control
 >numbers on a document, it must be fraudulent.

Ed

   Or as previously stated by me, breaches of security. Either way,
   requiring the genesis and provenance of the documents to be
   established in lieu of ownership being established

That is what I have  demonstrated, supported with documented
evidence and provided references for anyone who so cares to
independently verify, and not your bogus red herring spin  of
my position.

Also, when you first alleged the above that there were
archivists supporting the authenticity of the MJ-12 documents,
you were challenged to produce the documentation supporting your
absurd allegation above. You never did! No names, no
correspondance, no verifiable quotes, no dates! Of relevance
also as to whether the lack of control numbers are indicative to
the lack of genuiness to the documents is this archived post
from Robert Todd:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m07-012.shtml

 >For example, when confronted that his own book
 >claimed he had a Top Secret clearance at one time (a genuine
 >total falsehood), Stan's retort was he had no idea how that got
 >into his own book! Now that is "utterly stupid".

 >  I also said Don B did the writing and I missed it in the
 >  galleys. I repeat I have never said I had a TS clearance.

That is a lie on your part on multiple counts.

Your previous statement on the matter was that you had no idea how that
got into the book. From the archives message:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m08-014.shtml

 >>>On page 138 of 'Crash at Corona', Friedman claims:

 >>>"Both authors handled materials classified top secret
 >>>and higher, Friedman when in the nuclear industry and
 >>>Berliner when in the air force."

"I have no idea how the sentence got there." ---Stanton T. Friedman

You have never before accused Don Berliner, your co-author and
colleague, of making that up out of whole cloth. Are you now
saying that Don Berliner, chairman of the Fund for UFO Research,
and a respected member of the UFO community, fabricated that
statement without any input from you? If so, it is not supported
by what Don Berliner said on this matter when made aware of your
statement. Also, it is not supported by your past
actions/statements on this mailing list and part of the
archives.

Even though Don Berliner does not wish to get into this which is
in concert with his stated philosophy as head of FUFOR (One can
read their policy statement of their web page) he did contribute
that you gave  him the impression that you had a Top Secret
clearance even though you  never said so in an unambiguous
manner. Also, Berliner contributed that he was presently unaware
and surprised that you have admitted that  you only had a secret
clearance.

Berliner's version is supported by Stanton Friedman's past
rhetoric and posturing on this mailing list regarding his
alleged "expertise" with Top Secret documents. He has previously
alleged to have handled Top Secret documents while in private
industry in previous arguments on this mailing list. The
ambiguous implication is if you "handled" the documents, one
must have had the necessary clearances.

 From message  http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m03-005.shtml

STF on a discussion over Top Secret documents under the control of the
military requiring control numbers:

 >Many classified documents-- from General A to General B,
 >from me to my boss.. from him to his boss did NOT go
    ********************
 >through a central document control and therefore did NOT
 >have control numbers.

"From me to my boss", a phrasing allegedly in support of
Friedman's argument  relating to Top Secret documents not
requiring control numbers. Caught red handed posturing about his
alleged security experiences in private industry resulted in the
first time public admission by Friedman that he never had such
high level clearances and therefore that the above was not
relevant to any discussion of Top Secret documents and had no
place in a discussion of Top Secret document control procedures
since Friedman has never had any experience handling Top Secret
documents. Had he  not been caught posturing about an alleged
"expertise" that he never has had, the lie would  have just
gotten just bigger and bigger.

So, what is the story Stan Friedman? Did Berliner fabricate that
statement without your input? Or did you just let him think you
had this alleged background as you have attempted to posture it
previously on this mailing list? Also, please explain what type
of researcher doesn't read the galleys to his own book? By the
way, if Berliner wrote the book why is  your name listed first?
It certainly isn't for alphabetical reasons? Last time I
checked, B comes before S. Most importantly, please tell
everyone what other "galleys" have you neglected reading? How
much of  "Crash at Corona" is made out of whole cloth? Isn't it
convenient to just point the finger at Berliner and excuse
yourself for not reading the galleys? In your debate with Brad
Sparks on the CAUS web page, you implied that Brad Sparks needed
to read "Crash at Corona". Have you read it? It has your name on
it!

Also, does this finger pointing at Berliner at least a year
after the fact of the lie being exposed and years after the book
being in print have anything to do with Don Berliner having had
a reversal of opinion on MJ-12, disavowing the SOM, keeping it
away from you for months after its appearance and renouncing
Gerald Anderson?

Inquiring minds want to know what is going on? Will the real
Stanton T. Friedman please stand up?

Ed Stewart

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
    Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
---------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------









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   Feb > Feb 5

                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 11:18:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 12:37:50 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


 >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 17:23:50 -0500
 >From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Others have already pointed out the plethora of UFO shows
 >available. I'll add that I've spent the last 16 years of my life
 >as a working journalist here in Canada, in broadcast and print.
 >I know a lot of people at AP in the U.S. Name the reporter, I'll
 >ask them myself. It's far more likely the reporter spent a week
 >looking into UFOs, talked to one too many obvious nutbar or
 >raving paranoid and decided it wasn't worth the bother.

I'm not calling Sam a nutbar or a raving paranoid, but claims
that skeptics are government agents are -- at least in my view
-- exactly the kind of thing Michael means. I'm a journalist
myself (20 years as a music critic and music reporter), and one
thing that makes any journalist suspicious is unfounded
accusations. Doesn't matter if the subject is UFOs or the
internal politics of the Boston Symphony. If you hear someone
making serious charges without concrete evidence to back them
up, you write that person off.

Greg Sandow








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                  Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 11:39:57 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 13:13:41 -0500
Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip


 >From: James Easton
 >Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 13:38:39 +0000
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 10:19:56 -0500
 >Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

Previously. James wrote:

 ><snip>

 >We only have to cite the filmed assessment of Stan Winston and
 >colleagues, to prove that the industry's leading studio was
 >initially stunned and bewildered by the 'autopsy' footage.

 >This SFX footage perplexed the very best; don't let anyone tell
 >you otherwise.

<snip>

 >So, there was at least one experienced creature effects artist
 >who had worked with the top studios and remained uncertain if
 >some 18 minutes of film was a SFX fake.

<snip>

 >Quite nonsensical. How could a purported 'obviously' fake film
 >justify such intrigue from the SFX guru whose company was
 >responsible for the groundbreaking effects in 'Jurassic Park' I
 >and II, 'Terminator 2', 'Aliens', etc. and is a recipient of
 >several Academy awards.

 >It should set in perspective why those of us who actually
 >examined the overall evidence recognised it was far from being a
 >straightforward hoax.


Hi, James!

With all due respect, you make a distinction without a
difference. Straightforward or not, a hoax is a hoax. Regarding
Stan Winston's comments; his own work is very, very good. No one
is doubting that. However, he NOW works in the rarefied air of
large scale and big budget film productions. But that wasn't
always the case! Therefore, a little perspective is in order
before any conclusions are made regarding his views on AA.

Since he is used to working with very large budgets and very
large crews, I am sure that he is telling the truth when he says
that HE could not duplicate the AA alien on a small budget. But
what does that really prove? Only that he has gotten used to
doing things with large budgets; that's all!

Does this mean that smaller budget? Of course not. Low budget
horror films are made by the dozens every year that have effects
no worse than the alien body in AA. Does this prove that AA is a
hoax? Of course not. But the inclusion of Stan's comments in a
real discussion about the probability of AA's authenticity is
really inappropriate. If only big effects houses with big
budgets and big crews could produce work as dismal as the AA
alien, no matter how proud Stan might be to have produced it,
then there would be no low budget film industry that dealt in
special effects. This is simply not the case.

The irony, here,  is that Stan provided fabulous effects on the
first Terminator which had a total budget of only 9 million dollars for
the
entire film! Just how much of that do you really think went for make up?

Not much, I can assure you. Now, do you think for a minute that Stan
told
James Cameron, the director, that he couldn't do quality effects for a
low
budget? Of course not! At that point in his career, Stan did like
everyone
else in the industry; he did the best job he could with very little
money.
Not only that, but I'm willing to bet that Stan did everything he could
to ASSURE Cameron that he could pull off the make-up effects on such
a shoestring budget. And, of course, he did! Prior to that, Stan had
provided
excellent work for many, many, TV shows in the past; all with a very low

operating budget for makeup and effects.

Now his price is simply higher but the quality is still the same. More
to the
point, it was no worse when he had little money to work with.

Look at it another way:

My sister sings better than most pros, however, she doesn't get paid
since
she does it for her own enjoyment. To use Stan's comments as a measuring

stick for quality would mean that she really doesn't sing that well,
after all.

Now before anyone jumps up as says, "Yeah? Well it don't cost no
money just to stand there and sing!", you need to understand
that AA presents no technological challenges that had not
already been solved thirty years ago when Stan was just another
effects person trying to land "the big job".

It's basically a sculpt, cast and paint sort of effects job;
something that Stan proved he could do on a low budget many,
many years ago. He may get paid more now, but it doesn't require
a big budget; only big talent.

Take care,

Roger Evans,
MovieStuff, Houston TX









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                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 12:52:50 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 14:04:39 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


 >Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 11:18:28 -0500
 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
 >Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 17:23:50 -0500
 >>From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >>Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Others have already pointed out the plethora of UFO shows
 >>available. I'll add that I've spent the last 16 years of my life
 >>as a working journalist here in Canada, in broadcast and print.
 >>I know a lot of people at AP in the U.S. Name the reporter, I'll
 >>ask them myself. It's far more likely the reporter spent a week
 >>looking into UFOs, talked to one too many obvious nutbar or
 >>raving paranoid and decided it wasn't worth the bother.

 >I'm not calling Sam a nutbar or a raving paranoid, but claims
 >that skeptics are government agents are -- at least in my view
 >-- exactly the kind of thing Michael means. I'm a journalist
 >myself (20 years as a music critic and music reporter), and one
 >thing that makes any journalist suspicious is unfounded
 >accusations. Doesn't matter if the subject is UFOs or the
 >internal politics of the Boston Symphony. If you hear someone
 >making serious charges without concrete evidence to back them
 >up, you write that person off.

Well said, Michael and Greg.  But something needs to be added, I
think, about why we should not charge somebody with being a
gummint agent without clear and specific evidence to that
effect. I might interject here that I've been called a gummint
agent myself on a few occasions.  I appeared on a McCarthy-style
list Richard Hoagland was circulating some months ago.  Once I
was fingered as an agent by no less than channeling Space
Brothers.

Yes, it's amusing -- up to a point.  Beyond that, as my friend
Bill Chalker once pointed out to me, it's a bit scary.  In
ufology as in other walks of life, there are plenty of paranoids
out there. Some paranoids are armed.  I hope I am not sounding
like an alarmist when I say that unfounded charges could
potentially put somebody at risk of retaliation from a
weapon-wielding nut. Armed lunatics striking out against
fantasized gummint conspiracies have already caused significant
loss of life, so the danger is surely not purely imaginary.

In any event, the hurling of reckless accusations against those
who merely hold an opinion with which we disagree does more to
reduce ufology's credibility than any gummint agent ever could.

Jerry Clark











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                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 16:09:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 16:12:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 07:23:16 -0800
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:16:17 -0400
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:58:16 -0800
 >>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Of course you gather wrong, but that is nothing new. Your
 >>persisted with insisting certain MJ-12 documents were frauds
 >>because they lacked  TOP SECRET Control numbers despite two
 >>archivists saying not so and my having published several that
 >>didn't.


Ed, Please read this carefully.two archivists said certain
documents were not fraudulent because they didn't have TS
control numbers. I didn't say they said tthey were genuine. The
absence of TS control numbers does NOT make them fraudulent...
despite your claim that such absence does. They were, as you
well know, archivists at the Marshall Archives and the Ike
Library.

 >You continue your intellectual dishonesty by  failure to quote
 >in context and misrepresenting what has been said in the past
 >which I maintain to this date and have posted documentation
 >supporting those positions. Two such examples from  message

 >http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m04-017.shtml

 >   The fact these Top Secret
 >   documents don't have control numbers indicates that proper
 >   procedures were not followed and are suggestive that the
 >   documents are either breaches of security, as previously
 >   explained, or bogus.

 >and from message
 >http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m03-005.shtml

 >STF

 >>I think Ed would have us believe that if there are no control
 >>numbers on a document, it must be fraudulent.

 >Ed

 >   Or as previously stated by me, breaches of security. Either way,
 >   requiring the genesis and provenance of the documents to be
 >   established in lieu of ownership being established

 >That is what I have  demonstrated, supported with documented
 >evidence and provided references for anyone who so cares to
 >independently verify, and not your bogus red herring spin  of
 >my position.

 >Also, when you first alleged the above that there were
 >archivists supporting the authenticity of the MJ-12 documents,
 >you were challenged to produce the documentation supporting your
 >absurd allegation above. You never did! No names, no
 >correspondance, no verifiable quotes, no dates! Of relevance
 >also as to whether the lack of control numbers are indicative to
 >the lack of genuiness to the documents is this archived post
 >from Robert Todd:

 >http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m07-012.shtml

 >>For example, when confronted that his own book
 >>claimed he had a Top Secret clearance at one time (a genuine
 >>total falsehood), Stan's retort was he had no idea how that got
 >>into his own book! Now that is "utterly stupid".

 >>  I also said Don B did the writing and I missed it in the
 >>  galleys. I repeat I have never said I had a TS clearance.

 >That is a lie on your part on multiple counts.

 >Your previous statement on the matter was that you had no idea
 >how that got into the book.

That is still true. I didn't say I had a TS clearance. I missed
it in the galleys... I have never said I had a TS clearance. I
had a Q some consider this between SECRET and TS others say it
is equal to TS. I had a Q.


 >From the archives message:

 >http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m08-014.shtml

 >>>>On page 138 of 'Crash at Corona', Friedman claims:

 >>>>"Both authors handled materials classified top secret
 >>>>and higher, Friedman when in the nuclear industry and
 >>>>Berliner when in the air force."

 >"I have no idea how the sentence got there." ---Stanton T. Friedman

I will amend that. Don wrote it. I don't know why. Apprently
under the impression it was true. I have no reason to believe he
intentionally lied.

 >You have never before accused Don Berliner, your co-author and
 >colleague, of making that up out of whole cloth. Are you now
 >saying that Don Berliner, chairman of the Fund for UFO Research,
 >and a respected member of the UFO community, fabricated that
 >statement without any input from you? If so, it is not supported
 >by what Don Berliner said on this matter when made aware of your
 >statement. Also, it is not supported by your past
 >actions/statements on this mailing list and part of the
 >archives.

 >Even though Don Berliner does not wish to get into this which is
 >in concert with his stated philosophy as head of FUFOR (One can
 >read their policy statement of their web page) he did contribute
 >that you gave  him the impression that you had a Top Secret
 >clearance even though you  never said so in an unambiguous
 >manner. Also, Berliner contributed that he was presently unaware
 >and surprised that you have admitted that  you only had a secret
 >clearance.

I repeat I had a Q. which I was told was between a SECRET and
TS.

 >Berliner's version is supported by Stanton Friedman's past
 >rhetoric and posturing on this mailing list regarding his
 >alleged "expertise" with Top Secret documents. He has previously
 >alleged to have handled Top Secret documents while in private
 >industry in previous arguments on this mailing list. The
 >ambiguous implication is if you "handled" the documents, one
 >must have had the necessary clearances.


I have indeed handled many TOP SECRET documents during my many archive
visits. They were, of course, declassified; the style, format markings etc
are still meaningful. I published several in my Final Report on Operation
Majestic 12... some without  TS control numbers. Why is that so hard to
understand, Ed?


 >From message  http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m03-005.shtml

 >STF on a discussion over Top Secret documents under the control of the
 >military requiring control numbers:

 > >Many classified documents-- from General A to General B,
 > >from me to my boss.. from him to his boss did NOT go
 >    ********************
 >>through a central document control and therefore did NOT
 >>have control numbers.

I think that most people recognize  that just as "General A to
General B" is used to illustrate the point being made, so is
from me to my boss.. Much shorter than from an individual to his
boss"

 >"From me to my boss", a phrasing allegedly in support of
 >Friedman's argument  relating to Top Secret documents not
 >requiring control numbers. Caught red handed posturing about his
 >alleged security experiences in private industry resulted in the
 >first time public admission by Friedman that he never had such
 >high level clearances and therefore that the above was not
 >relevant to any discussion of Top Secret documents and had no
 >place in a discussion of Top Secret document control procedures
 >since Friedman has never had any experience handling Top Secret
 >documents. Had he  not been caught posturing about an alleged
 >"expertise" that he never has had, the lie would  have just
 >gotten just bigger and bigger.


Ed, please note that I have indeed handled many TOP SECRET
documents at many archives after they were declassified..That
does give insight into format, style, consistency.

By the way I had previously strongly and more than once noted to
Dr. B. of Sacramento that I did NOT have a TS clearance and that
I did NOT work on Black Budget programs. despite his repeated
claims that I had and did.

I hate to say it (because we know ED doesn't make mistakes) but
I think Don made a perfectly understandable and honest mistake..
Why is that such a big deal to Ed ??


 >So, what is the story Stan Friedman? Did Berliner fabricate that
 >statement without your input? Or did you just let him think you
 >had this alleged background as you have attempted to posture it
 >previously on this mailing list? Also, please explain what type
 >of researcher doesn't read the galleys to his own book? By the
 >way, if Berliner wrote the book why is  your name listed first?

I In the most recent printing (1997), Don's name is first. I did
the bulk of the research.

 >It certainly isn't for alphabetical reasons? Last time I
 >checked, B comes before S. Most importantly, please tell
 >everyone what other "galleys" have you neglected reading? How
 >much of  "Crash at Corona" is made out of whole cloth? Isn't it
 >convenient to just point the finger at Berliner and excuse
 >yourself for not reading the galleys? In your debate with Brad
 >Sparks on the CAUS web page, you implied that Brad Sparks needed
 >to read "Crash at Corona". Have you read it? It has your name on
 >it!

 >Also, does this finger pointing at Berliner at least a year
 >after the fact of the lie being exposed and years after the book
 >being in print have anything to do with Don Berliner having had
 >a reversal of opinion on MJ-12, disavowing the SOM, keeping it
 >away from you for months after its appearance and renouncing
 >Gerald Anderson?


Ed, there is nothing to satisfy your attempts to denigrate, put
words in other people's mouths, etc. I have no idea why you are
so angry at me... Obviously I am willing to say I made a mistake.
I didn't catch the TS comment in the galleys. I am sure there
were some typos I didn't catch either that I should have. I know
that was true for TOP SECRET/MAJIC.

Unlike Ed, I am not pefect. By the way, Friedman starts with an F
not and S... should I make a federal case out of that??


 >Inquiring minds want to know what is going on? Will the real
 >Stanton T. Friedman please stand up?

 >Ed Stewart


I would suggest the real Ed Stewart ought to sit down and take
his quarrels to the sandbox where they belong.

Stan Friedman-








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                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 16:20:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 16:35:02 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


 >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:44:57 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:26:03 -0500 (EST)
 >>Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:43:50 -0500
 >>Subject: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

 >>The sad reality is that there is control of the media.

 ><snip>

 >>Outside of a "paranormal" show or two - rare to find hard news on
 >>the UFO subject without some "spin" from a major TV, Cable
 >>network or major media like the AP, who cancelled a major UFO
 >>investigation story after one of their important reporters spent
 >>a week on it - never got to the media!

Bob writes:

 >Dear Sam, All:

 >Not a week goes by without a UFO program, somewhere, on my 60+
 >cable channels.

I think it was Sherlock Holmes that said the best place to hide
something is right out in open view. :)

 >>TV is regulated by the FCC!

 >Content? Since when?

There were a few news reports recently that dealt with
_government_financing_and_editing_ of the content of certain
popular TV programs. They were paying the producers to run drug
abuse material that the government had pre-approved. Apparently
they had some pretty strict guidelines and standards for how the
material was to be presented.

I'm not sure 'which' agency was most directly responsible, but
paying a TV program to present a certain view (whether the
particular view is valid or not) is unfair (who else could
compete with them!) and unacceptable because it smacks of an
insidious form of 'control.'

Government involvement in media content... you bet Bob.

 >Does CSICOP really bother you so much that you think that they
 >must be secret Guv'mnt agents trying to get you?

Couple of things here if I may:

I can't speak for anyone else Bob. Personally I don't think
CSICOP is a 'threat' at all. They are closer to being a 'cult'
than an organization. They attack others for being 'true
believers' when in truth there are _few_ other "UFO groups" who
are as fanatical about their "UFO beliefs" as the CSICOPers are!
Their entire philosophy is summed up in the lyrics of that old
Groucho Marx tune, "Whatever it is, I'm against it!" I don't
think they should be feared or hated. I think like any other
non-threatening 'extremist group' they should just be tolerated
and basically ignored. Like Illinois Nazi's.  :)

Re: Joe Nickel

I got to sit across from Joe Nickel in a TV discussion some
three years ago. The guy is just another ex-magician (like
"Randi") with a huge attitude problem and _very_ little else to
back up his arguments. I found him to be 'easy meat' in an open
debate situation. He stumbled and fell silent when I asked him
about his organizations campaigns against any belief in God or
against the continued existence of _any_ organized religious
groups. Questions like that have a way of showing them up for
the blind, fanatical 'zealots' that they are. CSICOPs really are
like 'anti-matter/Bizarro World' Jehovah's Witnesses! <lol> (My
apologies to any "Witnesses" in the crowd.)

Joe also refused to answer when I asked him to explain why he
has dismissed the testimony of competent and credible witnesses
such as astronauts, high ranking military personnel, and even a
few ex-presidents. Silence. No response.

Actually, he did respond, he gave me a dirty/angry look
(apparently) for having had the impertinence to ask. :) I wasn't
very impressed with Joe. If he's the best they have in terms of
a representative, then like I said, CSICOP is absolutely
_nothing_ for anyone to fret over.

One last:

The 'old man' (Klass) has long standing ties to groups that are
based in Washington DC. It would be interesting to know where
they get the funding to send dolts like Joe Nickel (who is
barely qualified to pull a rabbit out of a hat at a kiddie party)
travelling all over the world just so they can appear on these
programs as bona fide UFO 'experts'.

"Following the money" at CSICOP _could_ be an interesting and
possibly very revealing endeavor methinks!  :)

But that's just my own little "theory."  <VBG>

Regards,

John Velez

________________________________________________
                         AIC - Abduction Information Center -
                        www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                    jvif@spacelab.net
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________






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                       TMP News: News Briefing 2.5.00

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 13:56:08 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 18:29:36 -0500
Subject: TMP News: News Briefing 2.5.00


TMP NEWS
The E-News Service of The Millennium Project

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

February 5, 2000

_____________________________



NEWS BRIEFING
2.5.00



QUANTA - Science and Technology


NEAR SPACE PROBE APPROACHES EROS
NASA prepares for a close flyby of the Eros asteroid...
http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/02/03/near.rendezvous/index.html



EXOTICA - Unexplained Phenomena and Forteana


PRG PRESS RELEASE - 2/4/00
Report from the Paradigm Research Group on the upcoming landmark
CAUS UFO court case (CAUS vs Department of Defense), which will
present evidence regarding the now common sightings of "large,
silent triangular craft" being reported worldwide...
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/prg2-4-00.html

MYSTERY ICE LANDS IN SURREY, BC

Canada joins Spain and Italy with reports of mystery ice chunks
falling from the sky since early January...
http://ufobc.org/whizzbang.htm

MYSTERY ICE FALLS IN OTTAWA, ONTARIO
More falling ice in Canada...
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/ottawaice.html


_____________________________


TMP News is the electronic news service of The Millennium
Project, providing daily news briefings of the latest relevant
news stories and reports, as well as information and updates on
TMP-related news and events. TMP News is edited by Paul Anderson
and published by TMP, and is available free by subscription; to
be added to or removed from the mailing list, send your request,
including "subscribe TMP News" or "unsubscribe TMP News" and
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For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all
correspondence to:

THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT

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Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
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_____________________________


� The Millennium Project, 2000









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                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 22:24:10 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 18:32:54 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


 >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 17:23:50 -0500
 >From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:26:03 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@aol.com>
 >>Subject: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>The sad reality is that there is control of the media.

 >So what. The Atomic energy industry is also regulated by the
 >U.S. government. You heard about Three Mile Island, didn't you.
 >Why wasn't that hushed, it sure didn't do anything good for the
 >government or the multi-billion nuke energy industry.

I think they did a pretty good job. It was originally called
Six-Mile Island!

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk









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                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 17:47:11 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 18:48:35 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


 >Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 16:20:25 -0500
 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >I think it was Sherlock Holmes that said the best place to hide
 >something is right out in open view. :)

Isn't it Sherlock Holmes WHO said? Actually, I think it was
Edgar Allan Poe, probably in "The Purloined Letter" or
thereabouts.

 >>>TV is regulated by the FCC!

<snip>

 >There were a few news reports recently that dealt with
 >_government_financing_and_editing_ of the content of certain
 >popular TV programs. They were paying the producers to run drug
 >abuse material that the government had pre-approved. Apparently
 >they had some pretty strict guidelines and standards for how the
 >material was to be presented.

 >I'm not sure 'which' agency was most directly responsible, but
 >paying a TV program to present a certain view (whether the
 >particular view is valid or not) is unfair (who else could
 >compete with them!) and unacceptable because it smacks of an
 >insidious form of 'control.'

 >Government involvement in media content... you bet Bob.

This is a misrepresentation of what took place, which is a
tempest in a teapot (and thank the English wag that came up with
that one).

As I understand it, network broadcasters owe the government so
much air time over the course of a year in the form of public
service announcements. It occurred to one network accountant or
policy wonk, and then no doubt to others, that if they used an
anti-drug message (as part of dialogue) in one of their sitcoms
or entertainment programs, they might be able to get credit
toward their public service announcement airtime debt. Again, as
I understand it, the FCC agreed to credit such actions. That's
it. End of story, end of conspiracy. There was no arm of the FCC
cramming an anti-drug message (or policy) down network throats,
or censoring and strong-arming TV script writers and producers;
i.e., no prior censorship, script review, or dictation of
editorial content.

<snip>

 >The 'old man' (Klass) has long standing ties to groups that are
 >based in Washington DC. It would be interesting to know where
 >they get the funding to send dolts like Joe Nickel (who is
 >barely qualified to pull a rabbit out of a hat at a kiddie party)
 >travelling all over the world just so they can appear on these
 >programs as bona fide UFO 'experts'.


John, do you really think that's the way the world works? That
Klass, CSICOP, or even Nickell himself "paid" his way on to the
TV program you were on (and others)? The program's producers
paid his expenses, just as, presumably, they paid yours. Love or
loathe CSICOP, they know how the media works. They are adept at
raising money, issuing press releases, and drawing their roster
of in-house "experts" (or, if you prefer, talking heads) to the
attention of print reporters and TV producers. Ufology would do
well to learn a lesson or two from CSICOP's PR department.
Instead, we mostly complain about unsubstantiated conspiracies
and how we don't get no media respect. Turn the tables for a
moment and give us your short list of UFO experts you would like
to see annointed as official spokespersons for the field. Five
will suffice, unless you already had ten in mind.

 >"Following the money" at CSICOP _could_ be an interesting and
 >possibly very revealing endeavor methinks!  :)

 >But that's just my own little "theory."  <VBG>

 >Regards,

 >John Velez


Could be interesting, agreed. But I doubt you would turn up any
CIA or other intelligence agency fingerprints, if that's what
you're thinking. Hell, why should the government pay these
people to think and behave the way they do when they are
perfectly happy and willing to do it on their own? Makes no
sense. Would you look a thoroughbred gift horse in the mouth?

Didn't think so.

Dennis Stacy








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                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 22:24:58 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 06:37:05 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


 >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 17:23:50 -0500
 >From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:26:03 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@aol.com>
 >>Subject: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>The sad reality is that there is control of the media.

 ><snip>

 >>Study the declassified (formerly Top Secret) results of the CIA
 >>Robertson Panel of 1952 0r 53? - (much of this is still
 >>classified).

 >I wish I had access to classified CIA materials, Sam. Did I miss
 >the posting of those still-classified sections? Or do they exist
 >only in your dreams?

 >>Outside of a "paranormal" show or two - rare to find hard news on
 >>the UFO subject without some "spin" from a major TV, Cable
 >>network or major media like the AP, who cancelled a major UFO
 >>investigation story after one of their important reporters spent
 >>a week on it - never got to the media!

 >Others have already pointed out the plethora of UFO shows
 >available. I'll add that I've spent the last 16 years of my life
 >as a working journalist here in Canada, in broadcast and print. I
 >know a lot of people at AP in the U.S. Name the reporter, I'll
 >ask them myself. It's far more likely the reporter spent a week

A week....?? Wow!

 >looking into UFOs, talked to one too many obvious nutbar or
 >raving paranoid and decided it wasn't worth the bother. I even
 >understand. While I enjoy looking into this mysterious topic,
 >far too many of the people involved are of the lunatic fringe
 >type. Any reporter who could acquire real, not faked or
 >imagined, evidence of UFOs, or a government conspiracy to cover
 >up UFOs, would have their career made. The book offers,
 >employment opportunities, TV appearances and casual sex from
 >total strangers would be overwhelming.

That will likely be one of us Mike, not some repoter slugging
away. No book offers, employment opportunities, TV appearances
and casual sex from total strangers for you.

 >And that would just be the first week. And any reporter who was
 >working on a UFO story and got ordered off by management because
 >of pressure from above would quit and go to his past employer's
 >number one competitor to spill the beans on the story that got
 >them fired.

Now that is BS. Walk indeed over a story? Come on Mike, we've
all seen the Front Page. That's a journalistic myth. The
hardnosed reporter who'll do anything to get at the truth. The
only one who got at the truth in this country lately is the
Auditor General, finding a Billion dollars unaccounted for.
Where the hell were you guys. Out trying to shmooze up the
latest communications job with PMO's office.Out of the 100 or so
reporters I've come across in the course of my job in the last
25 years, I've come to admire only two. The rest were in it for
a stepup into something a little cushier.Besides, what the point
of going from one Conrad Black paper to another?

 >>TV is regulated by the FCC!

 >So what. The Atomic energy industry is also regulated by the
 >U.S. government. You heard about Three Mile Island, didn't you.
 >Why wasn't that hushed, it sure didn't do anything good for the
 >government or the multi-billion nuke energy industry.

Because of the multi-multi-multi gazillion dollar oil industry.

 >If the
 >media were as vulnerable to control from outside sources as you
 >like to imagine, you'd never hear about automobile recalls in
 >the news

You mean if it hadn't been for Ralph Nader... the father of
recalls.

 >... because General Motors is far more important to
 >America, overall, than the CIA, never mind the glaring fact that
 >G-M buys more ad time than the CIA and so is even more important
 >to broadcasters.

 >>Regarding US Govt/Military UFO involvement, I have spoken to
 >>major network reporters who are afraid to offend the government
 >>and thus lose their jobs.

 >That fear of offending the government was never more obvious
 >than when Sam Donaldson was shouting questions at President
 >Reagan about Iran-Contra, or in Canada, when reporters made fun
 >of John Turner to his face for weeks on end, while traveling in
 >Turner's campaign bus and jet during his disastrous federal
 >election effort.

Too bad you couln't do that to Paul Martin re his reluctance to
cease excessive EI salary deductions.

 >>Don't expect fair treatment of this subject from major media.
 >>They are programmed to call guys like Joe Nickell, and I am
 >>convinced from my questioning him that he is not just a simple
 >>ex-magician. There is something real and conspiratorial there
 >>with "official" connections and I am not a conspiracy theorist.

I usually find that they call their local astronomer, each of
whom is supposed to be some type of UFO expert.Better to call a
atmospheric physicist-someone who actually looks at the first 60
miles upward,not someone who concerns themself with something 15
lightyears away.

 >Sam, as a veteran journalist, who is currently a news
 >writer/news producer for the most influential independent TV
 >station in Canada, I can tell you there is nothing
 >conspiratorial about the media's behavior about UFOs. First,
 >show me the proof. Not your pathetic little dreams,
 >misinterpretations or fantasy... proof. News is a business, like
 >any other, and if you can't prove it then don't expect people
 >like myself, who have spent years developing our B.S. detectors
 >into fine instruments, to fall in line with what you say, simply
 >because its YOU who says it.

 >So, since I'm tired of my industry being blamed for everything
 >from morons who shoot up schools, to the UFO cover-up... a
 >warning to all:

 >If you want to slag the media, be specific: Reporter X at
 >station Y in Yourtown dropped a UFO story by order of (Name a
 >big shot). A blanket condemnation of the media without details
 >and I'll personally look the author up at the next UFO
 >convention and provide them with some very uncomfortable
 >moments.

 >One the other hand: Give me the _irrefutable_ proof of UFOs and
 >I guarantee you, as _any_ working journalist will, the evidence
 >will be the lead on every newscast on planet Earth within 24
 >hours.

 >But frankly Sam, you can't provide it, can you?

 >Michael J. Woods
 >Writer/producer
 >Citypulse News
 >City-TV

Stop looking for the quick fix. This is a business. So what.

The truth has been thrown at you for the last fifty years or so.

There's literally hundreds of thousands of people (the ones who
have had the courage to speakout despite people like yourself)
who have given you some truth. These are the same people who
serve on juries, and up until 30 years ago (in this country) or
so could get someone hung on their eyewitness testimony.

These people police the streets and highways, fly, fight and die
for your country. They fly over a billion people all over the
planet each year. They are called airline pilots.

These people govern your country (yes, they see them too), they
run your TV studios, write and produce your shows, run radio
stations, report the news, write, edit and publish your
newspapers (all of this right under your nose), have babies, mow
lawns, fix your pipes and pave you highways and wire your house.
They are all over the goddamn place if you'd just go out and
look for them. If you are in the room with ten people, chances
are one of them has had a sighting.

Mike, don't be so smug. The fact of the matter is you don't have
the balls to look into this. Too afraid of what the guy or girl
on the next desk will think of you. You are wallowing in your
own ignorance pal. It's evident from everything you said above
that you haven't walked one yard to check into this. But you are
curious, or you wouldn't be here.

I'll set you a problem Mike. Prove to me that the United States
landed men on the moon. Don't get me wrong. I'm not one of those
conspiratists who believe the Capricorn One scenario. I believe
the United States did land men on the moon in the late 60s and
early 70s. But I can't prove it. The is no provable physical
evidence that they did.(Have you ever actually seen a
moonrock, touched it, smelled it, tasted its moon-flavored
goodness?)

BTW Mike, I'm one of those ordinary, fantasizing, nutcases you
were talking about. I'm a pilot, a writer and a technologist,
and a producer of sorts - in television. I'm married with three
children each of whom have children of their own - 7
grandchildren in all. I drive fly and exist. I pay taxes,
overspend my credit card like a good little consumer, reason
things out and once had the wind knocked out of my sails when I
saw a UFO. Up 'til then this was a very interesting phenomenon.

Now it's personal.

Don Ledger








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                      Re: Rotating Objects = No Memory

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 21:37:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 06:39:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Rotating Objects = No Memory


 >Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 02:02:45 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >Subject: Re: Rotating Objects = No Memory
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:32:09 -0500
 >>From: Kelly McGillis <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
 >>Subject: Rotating Objects = No Memory
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Perhaps this explains the phenomenon of alien abduction and
 >>memory processes...?

 >>http://unisci.com/stories/20001/0131004.htm

 >>People Have Little Memory Of Objects That Rotate

 >This fascinating research did not adequately explain the
 >phenomenon of alien abduction and memory processes to me.
 >Perhaps one of the list pundits can expound in that regard.
 >However, now I know that if I ever see a future Unidentified
 >Spinning 0bject I will be sure to remember to make a great
 >effort to try and remember its direction. It also explains why I
 >never remembered the direction of those spinning light shows
 >back in the '60s. Or was it the LSD? If I ever become an
 >abductee is there something I should know about this? How do
 >abductees on Updates feel about spinning objects? Does something
 >strange take place with spinning objects? Inside the ship?

<snip>

What about gyroscopes?  Wouldn't they deserve a mention in this
thread..... along the lines of intentional rotation for
directional and/or navigational purposes?  Here the rotation
plays an integral part!

Todd Lemire
--
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains,
however improbable, must be the truth."

Sherlock Holmes









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                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 23:38:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 06:43:42 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


 >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 17:23:50 -0500
 >From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

Dear Whatever Jerome, I'm glad to be part of the boys Greg and
your little dreams BS Mike,

Relax, people.

A conspiracy theorist is just an ordinary person who cannot
accept the idea that all the crap and B.S. he/she sees around
can be explained by sheer stupidity, laziness, lack of ethics
and denial of personal responsibilities.

That's all.

There's nothing more to it.  Pure and simple logic: the mind
needs an explanation for the unacceptable. Ergo: if I wince,
then there must be a conspiracy.

<snip>

 >News is a business, like
 >any other, and if you can't prove it then don't expect people
 >like myself, who have spent years developing our B.S. detectors
 >into fine instruments, to fall in line with what you say, simply
 >because its YOU who says it.

That B.S. detector thing looks like an interesting gizmo.

 >That fear of offending the government was never more obvious
 >than when Sam Donaldson was shouting questions at President
 >Reagan about Iran-Contra, or in Canada, when reporters made fun
 >of John Turner to his face for weeks on end, while traveling in
 >Turner's campaign bus and jet during his disastrous federal
 >election effort.

Let me know who got sentenced: North or Reagan?  And, puleeze,
_all_ the media at the time got all over John Turner: they
registered _all_ his bad postures, _all_ his mishaps.  At the
same time, _all_ the media was having a ball with some guy
called Brian Mulroney, showing only his smiles. Perhaps you care
to explain to our readers what happened with Mulroney, and who
_exactly_ he was?

The Mulroney Canadian election of 1984 is the perfect example
of media manipulating public opinion.

If this is your "evidence" of competent journalism, I am afraid
that your B.S. detector is some kind of vacuum cleaner that
happens to be turned off when you are reporting on politicians
and put on reverse when you are reporting facts.

You make your bread by analyzing political issues.  Earth will
stand still the day you bite the hand that feeds you and say:

"Listen here, people: that Mr/Mrs./Dishonorable Minister is
evidently lying to you for the following reason. Blablabla."

You have proof of that on a daily basis.  Yet, what do you say
sir? what do you report to the viewers sir?

Your:

 >One the other hand: Give me the _irrefutable_ proof of UFOs and
 >I guarantee you, as _any_ working journalist will, the evidence
 >will be the lead on every newscast on planet Earth within 24
 >hours.

Is surprising indeed.

When it comes to UFOs, you are _not_ doing your job.  Ever asked
Klassy old boy to give you irrefutable proof of his explanation
of a UFO sighting?

I suppose it just doesn't work like that.  As a true blue
journalist you are entitled to double standards: an astronomer
is welcome to debunk a botanical aberration found on an alleged
UFO landing site, but not a team of ufologists with botanists in
it.

<snip>

 >conspiratorial about the media's behavior about UFOs. First,
 >show me the proof. Not your pathetic little dreams,
 >misinterpretations or fantasy... proof.

<snip>

You seem to be the one who is day dreaming here: you fantasize
on objective media coverage.

An oxymoron.

Just turn on the TV set.

Serge Salvaille









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                    Re: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2)

From: Mac Tonnies <Alintelbot@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 01:34:31 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 06:46:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2)


 >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 22:51:52 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2)
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >Although the Cydonia site seems to be the focus of many for
 >possible evidence of alien structures on Mars, it is not the
 >only one by far.  My favourite is the infrared image of Mars
 >taken by the Phobos 2 spaceprobe in 1989 which seems to reveal
 >an underground Martian city from its radiated heat.  Dr. John
 >Becklake of the London Science Museum is quoted as saying "The
 >city-like pattern is 60 kilometers wide and could be easily
 >mistaken for an aerial view of Los Angeles.".

Hi, Nick,

Yes, I've heard of this image but have never seen it.  Is it
available online?  Please direct me to a publication where I can
see this!

I'm not adverse to the idea of an extant civilization on Mars.
If we're being visited from beings from another solar system,
then there are plenty of reasons establishing a presence on Mars
would be beneficial for them.  The same goes for our Moon, for
which there is evidence of strange activity going back a long
time.

<snip>

 >Not a year goes by that previously unknown structures and even
 >cities are discovered here on Earth, many previously hidden by
 >desert sands, jungle vegetation or under metres of water so why
 >should we be shocked to find such things on worlds we know very
 >little about compared to our own world?

It is my hope that we will use many of the same methodologies
to help solve the riddle of Cydonia.

Mac Tonnies









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                        New 'Alien Autopsy' Photo's?

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 15:17:19 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 10:19:24 -0500
Subject: New 'Alien Autopsy' Photo's?


Dear All,

Please check out the web site below to see a new set of alleged
alien autopsy photographs.

They arrived annonymously and most likely will end up being a
fraud, I have however offered to help with the research and
investigation of these new photographs as I've come into contact
with a whole host of experts in many different fields while
writing our new alien autopsy book.

Please let me know what you think about these photo's once
you've had a chance to view them.

All the best,

Philip.

http://www.setlab.org/photogallery.html









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                       Re: New 'Alien Autopsy' Photos?

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 09:31:52 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 14:32:25 -0500
Subject: Re: New 'Alien Autopsy' Photos?


 >Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 15:17:19 +0000
 >From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
 >Subject: New 'Alien Autopsy' Photos?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Dear All,

 >Please check out the web site below to see a new set of alleged
 >alien autopsy photographs.

 >They arrived annonymously and most likely will end up being a
 >fraud, I have however offered to help with the research and
 >investigation of these new photographs as I've come into contact
 >with a whole host of experts in many different fields while
 >writing our new alien autopsy book.

 >Please let me know what you think about these photo's once
 >you've had a chance to view them.

 >All the best,

 >Philip.

 >http://www.setlab.org/photogallery.html


The photos are of the alien and the autopsy are very well done.
This is a thousand times better looking than Snatilli's piece of
scam.

The only problem with those photos as well as the AA film is
that neither creature has signs of lividity. This is where all
fluids in the body will srain to the lowest point of gravity
after death. Alien or otherwise, if you're organic you cannot
escape the physics of lividity, period. I'm surprised that, to
my knowledge, that this has not been brought up by the many
so-called "experts" looking into the AA film or other photos of
alleged dead aliens.

Regards,

Royce J. Myers III

eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy
http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3
http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog







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              Tonight On 'Strange Days... Indeed' Mike Woods &

From: EBK
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 17:09:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 17:09:27 -0500
Subject: Tonight On 'Strange Days... Indeed' Mike Woods &


Tonight on 'Strange Days... Indeed'


   ---------------------
  /// Michael J. Woods
----------------------

Tonight's columnist has worked in both print and broadcast media
for more years than he really wants to remember. Currently he
works in the newsroom of a Toronto TV station. He's a former,
well-travelled, military-man and boxing champion. He's been
totally perplexed by UFOs and related phenomena ever since he
was a kid.

He's spent much time, quietly, researching and investigating
Canadian UFO cases and has a take on the UFO 'scene' that both
amuses and impresses us. His car license plate says it all:
'UFO GUY'.

Mike will join us at the bottom of the first hour for his
look at what's going on 'out there'... don't miss him.



   ----------------
  /// Jan Aldrich
-----------------

Our second hour guest tonight was first with us back in January
of last year and again in August last. We learned much history
from him during his last visit. He's the Co-Ordinator for
Project 1947, the Project's e-mail list - Project 1947 and is a
well-respected researcher among his peers.

PROJECT 1947 is an attempt to enhance the future of UFO research
by establishing a solid collection of official UFO documents,
newspaper articles and personal accounts from the beginning of
the modern UFO era. Its primary focus is on the 1947 wave, also
looks forward as far as 1965 and back to 1900 for certain
selected significant topics in UFO research. The 1900-1946
period is being examined for UFO-like reports.

The first volume of material collected by PROJECT 1947 has been
published by the UFO Research Coalition as PROJECT 1947: A
Preliminary Report. An extensive collection of 1947 UFO reports
and newspaper accounts from the U.S.A. is supplemented by a
compilation of significant sightings from other countries,
including Sweden and Scandinavia, Finland, France and Australia.

Tonight, we'll discuss the UFO History Workshops, Project Sign,
Patrick Huyghe's article on Klass' Klaims regarding the recently
released NSA documents and other things that have attracted
Jan's attention


Visit the Project 1947 Website at:

http://www.project1947.com/


Join Mike, Jan, co-host Jonn Kares and I, along with callers,
this evening at 9:00pm Eastern, as we discuss these Strange Days...
Indeed on:

CFRB 1010 AM - 50,000 watts

6070khz Shortwave

and the Eureka Digital Broadcast System in Toronto.

You can also listen via Media Player at:

www.cfrb.com/




To call the program dial:

On-Air     416-872-1010
             1-800-561-CFRB
             *TALK [local mobiles]


Errol Bruce-Knapp






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                 AA Film - New Findings and Roswell Linkage

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 17:49:44 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 17:22:18 -0500
Subject: AA Film - New Findings and Roswell Linkage

All,

For those who just hit the delete key without reading the
previous AA film thread can I briefly go over things. During the
course of re-examining the Fort Worth Photographs I have come
accross a number of markings on the debris some of which are
repeated.

In trying to match these "symbols" against various known
languages a large amount of other material was cross checked for
a match, these sources included accounts where witnesses from CE
events remembered seeing writings during their encounter. Only
one source of match has so far been found and that only by
chance, that source is the Debris Footage from Ray Santilli's
Alien Autopsy Film. Three  markings seen on one piece of debris
can be closely matched with markings seen within the debris on
the floor of Gen Roger Ramey's office on the afternoon of 8th
1947.

I have to make clear these _are_ _not_ the well known beam
symbols seen in this piece of footage, but other markings only
recently found (1998) within the images.

As the features found in the RPIT's examination of these images
seem to have been previously undiscovered until the project
started some 18 months ago, the question has to be asked "How
did any hoaxer of the Debris Footage know about these markings
_and_ that they also could be found in the (apparently)
unrelated 1947 Fort Worth Photographs?".

The various mental hoops one has to jump through to resolve
"unknown" markings in two so diverse sources being "planted" 50+
years ago _just_ to confuse us today, stretches credability and
opens up an even bigger conspiracy scenario with the further
question "_why_ do it in the first place, to what ends?".

For now I tend to go with the simpler answer, the markings are
there because the debris probably came from the same or similar
source, which is what the alleged cameraman said, it came from
the crash of an unknown craft a month prior to the recorded
events in Roswell during June and July 1947.

But again, they _both_ might have come from MOGUL flights and
the USAAF might just have been slow learners.


The image I've attached to illustrate the findings shows the
symbol known to the RPIT as the "back to back J" or "fish-hook"
as from it's appearance this is what it looks like, two J's
placed back to back. The image not only shows that the symbols,
seen in the two sources are remarkably similar in basic form,
but also in smaller less noticable details within the basic
shape, six are noted on the image, these include the basic
symbol shapes.

I have placed more images on my webserver, these include
illustrations of all the symbols so far spotted in the AA
footage, and just where in the AA images these symbols are
located. From viewing the video versions of the Debris Footage
little can be seen other than the symbols do seem to be
indicated by their reflections visible on the flang of this beam
when it is briefly in view. It should be said here that my work
has been conducted on scans taken from the aprox 7"x6"
reproductions released to the media in 95/96, on close
inspection these appear to be scans taken from the film and
_not_ generated from a video source.

A web link is in place on my site that will take you to the
images, or they can be directly accessed at:

http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/new-1/aalink/index.htm

I have tried, in the last 18 months while I have been involved
with the RPIT project to present our findings in as matter of
fact way as possible without trying to jump to conclusions as to
the source of the debris seen or it's contents. I still cannot
say what _is_ on display in Gen Ramey's office, but I feel I can
say it is _not_ what the USAAF said it was then, and _not_ what
what the USAF say it is 50+ years later, I hope our results so
far support this conclusion.

Neil.



-------------------------------------------------------
                      Neil Morris@Home.

Email:             Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk

Web Sites:        Roswell and Alien Autopsy
                   http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/
         The Fort Worth Photographs of James Bond Johnson
                http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/
-------------------------------------------------------








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 6

                         New 'Alien Autopsy' Photos?

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 13:15:15 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 17:42:23 -0500
Subject: New 'Alien Autopsy' Photos?


Hello All, Philip,

 >Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 15:17:19 +0000
 >From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
 >Subject: New 'Alien Autopsy' Photo's?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Dear All,

 >Please check out the web site below to see a new set of alleged
 >alien autopsy photographs.


I haven't commented on the previoulsy mentioned AA stuff 'cause
I'm not a professional photgrapher or anything of the sort but I
majored in Biology (and grew up on a farm) so I've seen the
innards of most of the Phyla and Vertibrates in particular.

The skin reminds me of, well vinyl or naugahyde (hmmm maybe
that's where it came from. We - shudder - harvested Nauga skin
from these critters. Think about the old Lazy Boy in the attic?)

As for the interior of the critter-no defined musculature -
nothing inside appears to match what is out  side so what we
have here may be an Alien-shaped Haggis (and the contents are
probably simular)

As for the rest of the page,the autopsy was the best effort
including the Dog killing Alien of Art Bell fame a (IMHO)
Meier/Pleidian Hubcap job, and my personal favorite, the plastic
Moo Cow being taken by the (modified) Testor UFO.


Judged by the company you keep. Which is why I personally think
this is a fake (as with the AA film)  Also what is the USS
Shiloh? were is its home port? that might be telling too. Jane's
would be a good start. Anyway I agree with  Royce, nice effort,
they keep getting better and better.

GT McCoy








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   Feb > Feb 6

                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 16:46:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 18:03:53 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


Dear Mr. Ledger, Serge, and the rest of the List, too.

I'll take it point by point so there is absolutely no mistaking
my intent. Don't worry, I'll write slowly, assuming you can't
read too fast, or often.

 >Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 22:24:58 -0300
 >From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >>>Outside of a "paranormal" show or two - rare to find hard news on
 >>>the UFO subject without some "spin" from a major TV, Cable
 >>>network or major media like the AP, who cancelled a major UFO
 >>>investigation story after one of their important reporters spent
 >>>a week on it - never got to the media!

 >>Others have already pointed out the plethora of UFO shows
 >>available. I'll add that I've spent the last 16 years of my life
 >>as a working journalist here in Canada, in broadcast and print. I
 >>know a lot of people at AP in the U.S. Name the reporter, I'll
 >>ask them myself. It's far more likely the reporter spent a week

 >A week....?? Wow!

Yes, in the real world of working journalists, spending a week
on a story is a significant investment of time.

When I was a radio reporter, I would frequently file five
unrelated stories a day!

A journalist working on one story can contact literally hundreds
of people in week in regards to that story... and if he or she
is contacting hundreds of people in the UFO community, they will
hit a higher than average number of people who will tell them
with complete sincerity that they get coded messages beamed into
their fillings from Zeta Reticulae.

That gets tiresome after awhile.

You don't think so?

Have you ever been to a major UFO conference. Tell me you didn't
talk to anyone that even vaguely resembles that. It's
unfortunate, but true.

 >>type. Any reporter who could acquire real, not faked or
 >>imagined, evidence of UFOs, or a government conspiracy to cover
 >>up UFOs, would have their career made. The book offers,
 >>employment opportunities, TV appearances and casual sex from
 >>total strangers would be overwhelming.

 >That will likely be one of us Mike, not some reporter slugging
 >away. No book offers, employment opportunities, TV appearances
 >and casual sex from total strangers for you.

Good thing, too, my wife would kill me. But if the March 11th
NASA video release of tapes made by a Vancouver B.C. Cable TV
station manager are half of what is promised, you'll have to ask
yourself why none of "you" thought about tuning the satellite
dish to NASA Select while the VCR was running.

 >>And that would just be the first week. And any reporter who was
 >>working on a UFO story and got ordered off by management because
 >>of pressure from above would quit and go to his past employer's
 >>number one competitor to spill the beans on the story that got
 >>them fired.

 >Now that is BS. Walk indeed over a story? Come on Mike, we've
 >all seen the Front Page. That's a journalistic myth. The
 >hardnosed reporter who'll do anything to get at the truth.
 >The only one who got at the truth in this country lately is the
 >Auditor General, finding a Billion dollars unaccounted for.
 >Where the hell were you guys. Out trying to shmooze up the
 >latest communications job with PMO's office.Out of the 100 or so
 >reporters I've come across in the course of my job in the last
 >25 years, I've come to admire only two. The rest were in it for
 >a step-up into something a little cushier.Besides, what the point
 >of going from one Conrad Black paper to another?

Actually, the last half of your paragraph undermines the first
half.

Picture it, I'm a working reporter with proof of the existence
of UFOs and a government cover-up of same. My editor, producer,
whatever tells me the government knows I have this and is
killing the story. So, because I'm the passive, weak-willed kind
of individual who gravitates to reporting jobs, I forego the
above mentioned rewards because I want a step up to something a
little cushier, meekly agree to drop the story and go about
writing up an obit on a local celebrity.

Talk about BS.

And if I'm not mistaken, that auditors report on the missing
billion became public _after_ a National Post freedom of
information request for it.

<snip>

 >>Why wasn't that (Three Mile Island) hushed, it sure didn't do
 >>anything good for the government or the multi-billion nuke
 >>energy industry.

 >Because of the multi-multi-multi gazillion dollar oil industry.

And as we are all aware, there is no such thing as corporate
overlap, and certainly the people who sit on the Board of
Standard Oil wouldn't be on the board of Edison Power. Never
happens.

<snip>

 >>If the media were as vulnerable to control from outside sources
 >>as you like to imagine, you'd never hear about automobile recalls
 >>in the news

 >You mean if it hadn't been for Ralph Nader... the father of
 >recalls.

Kind of miss the point here. I didn't say there wouldn't be car
recalls if not for the media... but you wouldn't hear about
recalls if the outside influence accusations were true.

<snip>

 >Too bad you couldn't do that to Paul Martin re his reluctance to
 >cease excessive EI salary deductions.

Don, here we agree. No if, ands, or buts. EI deductions, a
vampire-like escalating tax on your income, increased federal
government fees... and let's not talk about the GST, before the
Liberals or since. And worst of all, unless there's a miracle,
Paul Martin will be our next P.M., yet another guy who redefines
Velcro lips in government.

<snip>

 >I usually find that they call their local astronomer, each of
 >whom is supposed to be some type of UFO expert.Better to call a
 >atmospheric physicist-someone who actually looks at the first 60
 >miles upward,not someone who concerns themselves with something 15
 >light-years away.

Again, and for the last time we agree.

<big snip>

 >Stop looking for the quick fix. This is a business. So what.

 >The truth has been thrown at you for the last fifty years or so.

It might be truth, it's certainly evidence... what it isn't, is
proof.

 >These people police the streets and highways, fly, fight and die
 >for your country. They fly over a billion people all over the
 >planet each year. They are called airline pilots.

I hate to break the news to you, Don, but if you had read my
posts on UpDates over the last few years, or had seen me when
I appeared on the Dini Show on CTV, or Jane Hawtin or WTN, or
the New Music, on MuchMusic and City-TV you'd have heard me tell
those people that if you were arrested and charged with a crime
you didn't commit, and the quality of UFO witness were to
testify against you in court, you'd go to jail. And I always
mention pilots, especially military ones, who are trained to
know what they are looking at in the sky.

<snip>

 >If you are in the room with ten people, chances are one of them
 >has had a sighting.

Hell, Don, if I'm in a room by myself I'm with someone who's had
a sighting, close range, long duration, totally inexplicable...
convincing evidence to me, but not proof.

 >Mike, don't be so smug. The fact of the matter is you don't have
 >the balls to look into this. Too afraid of what the guy or girl
 >on the next desk will think of you. You are wallowing in your
 >own ignorance pal. It's evident from everything you said above
 >that you haven't walked one yard to check into this. But you are
 >curious, or you wouldn't be here.

Don, sometimes you should learn a little about someone before
figuring you know them. There's an old line about don't
assume... you fit the description for both sides of the balance
of that line.

Don, my balls are so small, after growing up in the toughest
housing project in Toronto, I was a U.N. peacekeeper in Cyprus
during the Turkish Invasion of the mid-70's.

These days, my balls are so small, I park my blue Ford Probe
(get it?) with the custom license plates that read UFO GUY on
the lot every day at CITY-TV... the same car I drive all over
Toronto.

My balls are so small, I've admitted a belief in UFOs, without
real proof, on national television on three separate occasions.
I'm so afraid of what my colleagues think that new staff at
CITY-TV are instructed to pass callers reporting UFO sightings
on to me... and other producers and the news director consult me
when a UFO story hits the wires... which they do with increasing
regularity.

As for walking a yard to look into this... Don, you must be one
of the few researchers Erroll didn't introduce me to during the
Roswell '97 festival. I guess it was too far to walk.

<snip>

 >I'll set you a problem Mike. Prove to me that the United States
 >landed men on the moon. Don't get me wrong. I'm not one of those
 >conspiratists who believe the Capricorn One scenario. I believe
 >the United States did land men on the moon in the late 60s and
 >early 70s. But I can't prove it. The is no provable physical
 >evidence that they did.(Have you ever actually seen a
 >moonrock, touched it, smelled it, tasted its moon-flavored
 >goodness?)

Actually, I have seen a moon rock on display. Or what I was told
was a moon rock, I didn't follow it on the trip here. Touch it,
smell it, taste it? No.

Moon rocks are kept in fairly airtight containers, scientists
who get to handle it usually work clean-room conditions.

On the other hand, when was the last time you eye-balled an
atom. So how do you know atoms exist?

 >BTW Mike, I'm one of those ordinary, fantasizing, nutcases you
 >were talking about. I'm a pilot, a writer and a technologist,
 >and a producer of sorts - in television. I'm married with three
 >children each of whom have children of their own - 7
 >grandchildren in all. I drive fly and exist. I pay taxes,
 >overspend my credit card like a good little consumer, reason
 >things out and once had the wind knocked out of my sails when I
 >saw a UFO. Up 'til then this was a very interesting phenomenon.

 >Now it's personal.

Yes, Don, very personal. I can admire two attributes of yours,
the pilot's license and the fact that you're published, author
of 'The Maritime UFO Files', if I'm not mistaken. We'll be
charitable and blame the originality of the title on the
publisher.  I'll remind you what Heinlein said, "Writing is
nothing to be ashamed of. Just do it in private and wash your
hands afterward."

I'm not sure what the hell a technologist is, does that mean you
use an electric can opener or something... and you're a producer
of sorts... in television. Well, yes, correct me if I'm wrong
but don't you work for the Nova Scotia government channel or
something?

Unlike myself, you didn't list your affiliation. (By the way,
conspiracy/government cover-up types, relax. Nova Scotia is
arguably Canada's prettiest province. Not the biggest shaker on
the national stage. The only secrets it would be covering up,
other than Shag Harbor (see Don for details) would be the
provincial incest rate.)

Other than that, I do look forward to meeting you face to face
at the next UFO conference here in Ontario... or maybe I'll
travel a couple yards for the next big UFO gathering in Nova
Scotia.

And Serge, I didn't want you to feel left out:

 >Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 23:38:35 -0500
 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >And, puleeze,_all_ the media at the time got all over John Turner:
 >they registered _all_ his bad postures, _all_ his mishaps.  At the
 >same time, _all_ the media was having a ball with some guy
 >called Brian Mulroney, showing only his smiles. Perhaps you care
 >to explain to our readers what happened with Mulroney, and who
 >_exactly_ he was?

 >The Mulroney Canadian election of 1984 is the perfect example
 >of media manipulating public opinion.

(Non-Canadians or those uninterested in a short spiel about recent
Frostback politics are welcome to skip this paragraph.)

Yes, let's be precise, shall we. Are you suggesting when a PM
candidate pats a woman on the ass that isn't newsworthy? Do you
forgot how often the CBC reminded us that Mulroney sang for the
big U.S. money men as a kid? Was it the media that killed
Turner, or his patronage appoints when he took over from
Trudeau, who was fairly disliked when he took his walk in the
snow? A guess the complete botching of the televised debate by
Turner was the media's fault too.

And Serge, aren't we forgetting something. Didn't every media
outlet go after the Tory government tooth and nail from day one.?
And thanks to that, isn't Mr. Mulroney now the most hated
politician in political history. The point I was making the
first time, and now, is that journalists aren't too frightened
of the government to take it on.

 >If this is your "evidence" of competent journalism, I am afraid
 >that your B.S. detector is some kind of vacuum cleaner that
 >happens to be turned off when you are reporting on politicians
 >and put on reverse when you are reporting facts.

 >You make your bread by analyzing political issues.  Earth will
 >stand still the day you bite the hand that feeds you and say:

 >"Listen here, people: that Mr/Mrs./Dishonorable Minister is
 >evidently lying to you for the following reason. Blablabla."

 >You have proof of that on a daily basis.  Yet, what do you say
 >sir? what do you report to the viewers sir?

That's right Serge, no one has ever in all of Canadian
journalism called a politician to task. Jane Stewart isn't being
asked any uncomfortable questions about a missing billion from
the Human Resources Department, I'm just dreaming. And talk to a
lawyer about the difference between evidence, proof and fact.
There is a difference. Unlike politicians, journalists have no
libel-proof venue.

<snip>

 >When it comes to UFOs, you are _not_ doing your job.  Ever asked
 >Klassy old boy to give you irrefutable proof of his explanation
 >of a UFO sighting?

I would love to get Klass in a chair. Asking him to support his
ridiculous explanations would be the starting point. Like many
people, some on this list, his word isn't worth much to me.

 >I suppose it just doesn't work like that.  As a true blue
 >journalist you are entitled to double standards: an astronomer
 >is welcome to debunk a botanical aberration found on an alleged
 >UFO landing site, but not a team of ufologists with botanists in
 >it.

Serge, wait til you know me before accusing me of having _any _
kind of standards, let alone double standards.

<snip>

 >You seem to be the one who is day dreaming here: you fantasize
 >on objective media coverage.

 >An oxymoron.

 >Just turn on the TV set.

I've seen what passes for journalism, broadcast and print in
Quebec. I understand your disdain. The sheer lies which pass for
journalism in Quebec is only exceed by the lies of its
politicians.

Here is my bottom line. The argument about government control of
the media, the blaming of the media for society's evils is
tiresome and unsupportable... always with some exceptions. As to
the rest of this... would you folks read the posts... I believe
in UFOs just not as blindly as some of you.

And if you what to know what constitutes proof to me: Have a UFO
land at Nathan Phillips Square in Toronto, while my station's
Live Eye truck is up and rolling, followed by an interview with
whatever is piloting... that's proof.

The rest, some compelling, some laughable, is evidence...
nothing more.

So there,  pfffft!!!


Mike Woods
News writer/News producer
CityPulse News
City-TV


The truth can STAY out there,
send in a good fantasy!









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 6

                       Re: New 'Alien Autopsy' Photos?

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 18:04:56 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 18:08:22 -0500
Subject: Re: New 'Alien Autopsy' Photos?


 >Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 15:17:19 +0000
 >From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
 >Subject: New 'Alien Autopsy' Photos?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >Dear All,

 >Please check out the web site below to see a new set of alleged
 >alien autopsy photographs.

 >They arrived annonymously and most likely will end up being a
 >fraud, I have however offered to help with the research and
 >investigation of these new photographs as I've come into contact
 >with a whole host of experts in many different fields while
 >writing our new alien autopsy book.

 >Please let me know what you think about these photo's once
 >you've had a chance to view them.



Philip,

Well at least one of the sites images _is_ a fake, the b+w image
of the alleged "Roswell Crash Site" showing disk and alien (one
of those from the AA). The Main image is from an episode of the
Twilight Zone called "Death Ship", the alien image was pasted
in. The full story, with original scan of the reference book the
image came from can be found on my webserver, with details of
the TZ eps it was lifted from.

Neil.
-------------------------------------------------------
                      Neil Morris@Home.

Email:             Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk

Web Sites:        Roswell and Alien Autopsy
                   http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/
         The Fort Worth Photographs of James Bond Johnson
                http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/
-------------------------------------------------------








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 6

                            Re: The Eyes Have It

From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 17:00:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 18:19:19 -0500
Subject: Re: The Eyes Have It


 >Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:44:24 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: The Eyes Have It
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Key words here folks is "stare."  Once you've been stared at
 >by one of these critters who are especially adept at it, it's like
 >the "Mind Meld" only more.  The entity gets up really close
 >and stares at you.  Nose to nose and farhead to farhead, this
 >action causes you to have the emotions the entity wants to
 >elicit, the physical feelings he (she or it) wants you to have
 >and that includes a sexual response and last, the entity may
 >cause you to remember what never really happened and plant
 >that memory as being real.  It can cause you to recall that
 >which it wants you to recall.

 >It ain't no fun because on one level, you know what is happening
 >and cannot do a thing about it.

 >It's about control.  Yours.  Namely it ain't.  And during those
 >times, just like the times (and they've been few for me) when
 >one is witness to a sighting of a UFO, without apparent
 >abduction, you are fixed in place, unable to do much of
 >anything.  Most especially that which under normal conditions,
 >you would do, you won't do in that state.

 >It's almost as if everything, including time, stops right then
 >and there.

 >Now, Mr. Randle and Mr. Klass and Mr. or Ms. Whomever, go ahead
 >and tell me it never happened.  Tell me I'm gay, or that I am
 >having a waking dream or one of those sleep disorder thingies,
 >sleep paralysis or whatever.

 >Then, when I laugh or otherwise react in anger, you won't mind
 >all that much.  One thing is certain however, that those of you
 >who know squat about what you are talking about can still do so
 >with a straight face, as if you had all the answers.  To an
 >abductee or to a witness, it all sounds so lame it isn't funny.
 >In fact, it's pathetic.  Try harder folks.  You ain't there yet.
 >Hell, you ain't even close.


Jim,

You obviously have some serious objections to the approach that
Kevin Randle and others have taken, but there is a middle ground
that both sides have prematurely dismissed as if by mutual
consent: That at least some Alien Abduction Experiences are most
likely taking place during a period of Awareness during Sleep
Paralysis, ASP.

While this approach share's Dr Randle's insight that the
experiencer's _body_ is in a state of sleep paralysis, it makes
no assumption that the experiential component of the abduction
experience is a hallucination. In particular, no assumption is
made that the beings the experiencer seems to perceive are (or
are not) hallucinations projected outward by the unconscious.

After all, if we are willing to conceed that the experiencer is
accurately perceiving the paralyzed condition of his/her body,
then an open-minded individual may well wonder what other parts
of the experiencer's report reflect a perception rather than a
hallucination.

Joe


*****************************************************
Joseph Polanik, jpolanik@mindspring.com
Trionic Research Institute, http://www.trionica.com







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 6

                Stewart & Friedman [was: Re: Officer Stevens

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 13:54:03 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 18:54:35 -0500
Subject: Stewart & Friedman [was: Re: Officer Stevens


 >Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 16:09:11 -0400
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 07:23:16 -0800
 >>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:16:17 -0400
 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:58:16 -0800
 >>>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Ed, Please read this carefully.two archivists said certain
 >documents were not fraudulent because they didn't have TS
 >control numbers. I didn't say they said tthey were genuine. The
 >absence of TS control numbers does NOT make them fraudulent...
 >despite your claim that such absence does.

You are persistent in removing the context from my remarks and
failing to quote exactly. That is intellectual dishonesty, but
your trademark that you have established over and over on this
mailing list.

What does "two archivists" mean? Who were they? What were their
names? When and under what circumstances you spoke to these
persistently unidentified archivists? Are you afraid that when I
or someone else follows up on  this alleged claim of yours, it
will not be supportable in the context you present by these two
alleged archivists?

What does "certain documents" mean? What were they? Are they
from the archives? If so, what is their location and
identification so anyone can follow your alleged footsteps, find
them, and determine if their context is even applicable to a
discussion of Top Secret documents under the control of the
executive branch of government and more specifically, the
military establishment? And what relevance to these "certain
documents" have to the context of the original statements
regarding Top Secret documents under the control of the
Department of Defense and its subsidiary agencies, i.e. US Army?
Why have you persistently dodged identifying these alleged
documents after repeated requests? Are you afraid that when I or
someone else follows up on this undetermined claim of yours, it
will be shown these alleged documents do not support the context
you allege "these documents" represent?

 >They were, as you
 >well know, archivists at the Marshall Archives and the Ike
 >Library.

I don't know any such thing. You have never identified the
archivists. You have never identified the alleged documents you
allege the archivists' comments relate to. You have never
revealed the entire corresponcence/meeting as to time, date and
location so anyone can determine whether or not it is even
relevant?  What are you afraid of? That the same thing will
occur as when I followed up on your previous source Dr. Pankratz
(sp?)? Turns out his statements in context supported that
serialized control numbers were being  used in that era and
actually were not supportive of your claims. But that is not
unexpected. As I have previously documented on this list, the
control procedures for Top Secret documents in the jurisdiction
of the Executive Branch have been established by law. It is not
a notion of Ed Stewart as Stanton Friedman alleges. It is the
law of the land and has been the law of the land as the history
of executive orders demonstrates!

Unidentified archivists? Certain documents? Is that the best
that researcher extraordinaire and nuclear physicist Stanton T.
Friedman, the man that wants to be Sam Sherman's partner on a
national TV debate can do?

Relevant previous messages/links from a year ago:

 >>http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m04-017.shtml
 >>http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m03-005.shtml
 >>http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m07-012.shtml

 >That is still true. I didn't say I had a TS clearance. I missed
 >it in the galleys...

How many different printings has Crash at Corona had since 1994?
How many printings since you were publically made aware of the
lie? Have you bothered to remove the lie from the paperback
edition recently published? If no, why not? It has nothing to do
with whether you read the original galleys back in 1993/1994.
How many future printings are you going to allow without a
correction? On autographed copies that you sell privately, do
you include an insert to advise the buyer the passage is in
error? My autographed copy has no such errata sheet!

 >I have never said I had a TS clearance. I
 >had a Q some consider this between SECRET and TS others say it
 >is equal to TS. I had a Q.

Alleged expert and alleged authority on security matters Stanton
T. Friedman shows his total ignorance by not even knowing the
meaning of the little buzz words he has managed to memorize but
not understand and repeats an absurdity in defense of his
ignorance which he has repeated in the past and been corrected
by others at that time.

Allow me to draw an analogy which by no means is perfect. A
driver's license allows one to drive a vehicle on public
highways. It doesn't allow one to drive _any_ vehicle unless
they have the owner's permission to drive it. Yet, even if one
owns a vehicle or has the owner's permission to drive that
vehicle, the individual still needs a valid driver's license to
be in compliance with the law. Security clearances such as
Confidential, Secret, and Top Secret can be equated to a
driver's license for the purpose of this analogy.

Once granted, it means that an individual _can_ have security
clearance at that level. It does not give one unconditional
clearance just like a driver's license doesn't give one access
to take the neighbor's car for a joy ride. In order to have
access one still needs the owner's permission.

Q is not, I repeat, is not a level of clearance such as
Confidential, Secret, Top Secret. It is an access authorization
denominator that signifies nuclear related data and places such
data into that category requiring someone in authority to make a
determination if a specific individual has a need to access that
data. In other words, if one is working for a defense contractor
on contracts that relate to the nuclear field, invariably one
could need access to Q data. Irrespective of that, the
individual would still need the appropriate level of security
clearance to which that Q data was classified: Restricted(in use
at one time), Confidential, Secret, Top Secret.  Trying to
compare one to another is like trying to compare driver licenses
to car registrations. Just because you own a car, doesn't mean
you can legally drive it in a public highway. You need a
driver's license to do that. Just because you have a driver's
license, doesn't mean one can drive the neighbor's car anytime
one chooses. One still needs permission, otherwise one goes to
jail.

When Stanton Friedman continuouly repeats

"I had a Q some consider this between SECRET and TS others say it
  is equal to TS. I had a Q."

in defense of his alleged expertise of security procedures, he
is in essence saying "The car is registered, Mr. policeman. I
was told that was the equivalent of a driver's license. You mean
I need a driver's license to drive on a public highway? But the
car is registered, Mr. policeman!"

Such is the level of nuclear physicist Stanton T. Friedman's
alleged "expertise" and "knowledge" of security procedures. I
don't expect Stanton Friedman to understand the analogy, but I
hope others reading it understand. He has picked up the
equivalent of a few buzz words, but is still unable to put them
together in any coherent continuity that makes any sense. For
years, he has been stringing out these buzz words to the UFO
community alleging to be an expert on security due to his
private industry experience. But that "expertise" is simply not
there, and it was never there.

 >>From the archives message:

 >>http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m08-014.shtml

 >>>>>On page 138 of 'Crash at Corona', Friedman claims:

 >>>>>"Both authors handled materials classified top secret
 >>>>>and higher, Friedman when in the nuclear industry and
 >>>>>Berliner when in the air force."

 >>"I have no idea how the sentence got there." ---Stanton T. Friedman

 >I will amend that. Don wrote it. I don't know why. Apprently
 >under the impression it was true. I have no reason to believe he
 >intentionally lied.

You don't know why? Read above. It is obvious that you conned
Berliner into believing you had that prior expertise as you have
attempted to pass yourself off on this mailing list back in
1996. That is why. Someone told you that a Q was equal to TS.
You accepted it without ever bothering to research it if it was
true or not because it sounded good. The lie grew till you
believed it yourself, still unable to understand the subtle
differences. For decades you have been passing yourself off as
some alleged expert on security to anyone that would listen in
the UFO community. You are not. You know some buzz words, but
you are not even able to put them together in any meaningful
coherent fashion. Your statements relating to Q demonstrate that
ignorance and ineptitude.

 >>You have never before accused Don Berliner, your co-author and
 >>colleague, of making that up out of whole cloth. Are you now
 >>saying that Don Berliner, chairman of the Fund for UFO Research,
 >>and a respected member of the UFO community, fabricated that
 >>statement without any input from you? If so, it is not supported
 >>by what Don Berliner said on this matter when made aware of your
 >>statement. Also, it is not supported by your past
 >>actions/statements on this mailing list and part of the
 >>archives.

 >>Even though Don Berliner does not wish to get into this which is
 >>in concert with his stated philosophy as head of FUFOR (One can
 >>read their policy statement of their web page) he did contribute
 >>that you gave  him the impression that you had a Top Secret
 >>clearance even though you  never said so in an unambiguous
 >>manner. Also, Berliner contributed that he was presently unaware
 >>and surprised that you have admitted that  you only had a secret
 >>clearance.

 >I repeat I had a Q. which I was told was between a SECRET and
 >TS.

See above.

 >>Berliner's version is supported by Stanton Friedman's past
 >>rhetoric and posturing on this mailing list regarding his
 >>alleged "expertise" with Top Secret documents. He has previously
 >>alleged to have handled Top Secret documents while in private
 >>industry in previous arguments on this mailing list. The
 >>ambiguous implication is if you "handled" the documents, one
 >>must have had the necessary clearances.

 >I have indeed handled many TOP SECRET documents during my many archive
 >visits. They were, of course, declassified; the style, format markings etc
 >are still meaningful. I published several in my Final Report on Operation
 >Majestic 12... some without  TS control numbers. Why is that so hard to
 >understand, Ed?

You fail to understand that an archived declassified document
has gone through an undisclosed sequence of declasssification
instances and reviews. What is left may not be the entire
original, i.e. cover sheets that were attached may have been
removed, original stampings left on without being blackened
creating the illusion of classification levels that in actuality
do not exist, etc... If one does not have the experience with
the control procedures in handling the actual documents before
they are declassified and placed in an archive, how is one to
properly interpret what they are looking at and know what the
document should contain? Browsing through declassified documents
does _not_ make one an expert on control procedures and control
markings. One  has had to have the experience working with
actual Top Secret documents in a control function, received the
proper training and schooling and have known what the applicable
laws, rules and regulations were. You have scored a zero in all
such areas and have demonstrated your imbecility in such matters
by your words and printed material.

Your MJ-12 documents have been documented to be bogus over and
over in various independent ways by many different researchers
in the UFO community. You wish to continue in perpetrating the
lie, be my guest. No one is stopping you. Even the people that
introduced the documents to the UFO community, your
co-researcher and collegue Willian Moore as well as British
researcher Timothy Good are on record:

Timothy Good in 1996, said he believed the MJ-12 documents to be
bogus (BEYOND TOP SECRET, 1996, pg. 468)

Moore offered recent reflections on MJ-12 and Roswell from
Saucer Smear, available online:

"If any of the UFO-related documents cited by me in past
writings are fabrications (a matter which I have always conceded
to be within the bounds of possibility), then I was just as much
taken in and used as anyone else,  if not more."  from Saucer
Smear, 4-20-97.

"I no longer am of the opinion that the extraterrestrial
explanation is the best explanation for this event (Roswell)."
from Saucer Smear, 8-5-97.

(on Roswell) "I've always harbored some doubts about this case."
from Saucer Smear, 11-15-97.


Of course, without Roswell there can be no doubt about
"authenticity" on the MJ-12 documents which by the way only
pointed to what was already in the public domain or in
researcher's files at the time.

 >>From message  http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m03-005.shtml

 >>STF on a discussion over Top Secret documents under the control of the
 >>military requiring control numbers:

 >>>Many classified documents-- from General A to General B,
 >>>from me to my boss.. from him to his boss did NOT go

 >> ********************

 >>>through a central document control and therefore did NOT
 >>>have control numbers.

 >I think that most people recognize  that just as "General A to
 >General B" is used to illustrate the point being made, so is
 >from me to my boss.. Much shorter than from an individual to his
 >boss"

I think most people realize that "from me to my boss" is a
reference to a personal experience and not a third party
reference. An experience that never occured and now known to be
an unadulterated lie. What part of LIE doesn't Stanton T.
Friedman understand?

 >>"From me to my boss", a phrasing allegedly in support of
 >>Friedman's argument  relating to Top Secret documents not
 >>requiring control numbers. Caught red handed posturing about his
 >>alleged security experiences in private industry resulted in the
 >>first time public admission by Friedman that he never had such
 >>high level clearances and therefore that the above was not
 >>relevant to any discussion of Top Secret documents and had no
 >>place in a discussion of Top Secret document control procedures
 >>since Friedman has never had any experience handling Top Secret
 >>documents. Had he  not been caught posturing about an alleged
 >>"expertise" that he never has had, the lie would  have just
 >>gotten just bigger and bigger.

 >Ed, please note that I have indeed handled many TOP SECRET
 >documents at many archives after they were declassified..That
 >does give insight into format, style, consistency.

It doesn't. See above for specifics why one has had to have the
experience working with actual Top Secret documents in a control
function, received the proper training and schooling and have
known what the applicable laws, rules and regulations were to
even begin to start passing themselves off as an expert. Back in
1996, decades after you were on record alleging expertise in
these areas you weren't even aware of the regulations in place
in the executive branch of government that provide direction to
the various agencies on the handling and control of classified
documents/information. I had to post them on this mailing list
because you demanded it alluding that they did not exist or were
applicable. Well, they did exist, still exist and are part of
the law of the land. They are not a figment of Ed Stewart.

 >I In the most recent printing (1997), Don's name is first. I did
 >the bulk of the research.

So? Was the lie about your alleged security experiences in the
nuclear industry removed from the most recent printing, or  not?

 >>Most importantly, please tell
 >>everyone what other "galleys" have you neglected reading? How
 >>much of  "Crash at Corona" is made out of whole cloth? Isn't it
 >>convenient to just point the finger at Berliner and excuse
 >>yourself for not reading the galleys? In your debate with Brad
 >>Sparks on the CAUS web page, you implied that Brad Sparks needed
 >>to read "Crash at Corona". Have you read it? It has your name on
 >>it!

 >>Also, does this finger pointing at Berliner at least a year
 >>after the fact of the lie being exposed and years after the book
 >>being in print have anything to do with Don Berliner having had
 >>a reversal of opinion on MJ-12, disavowing the SOM, keeping it
 >>away from you for months after its appearance and renouncing
 >>Gerald Anderson?

 >Ed, there is nothing to satisfy your attempts to denigrate, put
 >words in other people's mouths, etc. I have no idea why you are
 >so angry at me...

Not angry. The above questions are legitimate.

 >Obviously I am willing to say I made a mistake.
 >I didn't catch the TS comment in the galleys. I am sure there
 >were some typos I didn't catch either that I should have. I know
 >that was true for TOP SECRET/MAJIC.

This is not about a typo. It is about honesty and integrity in
research.

 >I would suggest the real Ed Stewart ought to sit down and take
 >his quarrels to the sandbox where they belong.

 >Stan Friedman-

I'm going back to the sandbox now.

Oh! By the way, I almost forgot. Since you won't answer why your
co-researcher/co-author and colleague Don Berliner has been
putting as much distance as possible from you over the past many
months maybe you could comment on a couple of your original
MJ-12 and Roswell co-researcher and colleague William Moore's
public comments on your character and integrity:


Why did Moore refer to you, the chief defender of MJ-12,  as
"Fraudmann" (Saucer Smear, 11-15-97)?


Why would a discoverer of the MJ-12 papers (Moore) say this
about his colleague:


"As for Friedman, I think he is in this thing way over his head,
and I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see him get badly burned by
it. It troubles me greatly to see the money-grubbing showman
side of him dominating his once respectable scientific
acumen."(Saucer Smear, 11-15-96.)


Stan Friedman seems to be having some difficulties with his
co-researchers, co-authors, and colleagues. Now he wants to be
Sam Sherman's debating partner on national TV.

 >From message http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/feb/m02-009.shtml

 >Right on, Sam.

 >If you need a debate partner, I hereby volunteer. Won at Oxford
 >University Debating Society in 1995.

Even though most everyone on that thread responded against Sam
Sherman for his conspiratorial comments regarding Joe Nickell,
those comments didn't phase Stanton T. Friedman as he rushed in
to Sam's support. Maybe this will be the ufological dream team
of the new millenium since the dream team from the 1980s of
Moore-Shandera-Friedman kind of fizzled out and the dream team
of Friedman-Berliner never really got off the ground floor.

Maybe they can make the Oxford Hall available to you once more
and hear all about your wonderful experience and expertise in
the nuclear industry that has endeared you to so many of the
perennial ufological faithful. The best to your future debating
endeavors against those "truly nasty and uninformed debunkers".

Now where is that frontrow seat sandbox? I know I left it here
somewhere.

Anybody know if they serve popcorn at these debates? Hope they
don't schedule it for Thursday evenings opposite WWF Smackdown.

Ed Stewart
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
    Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man ------







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   Feb > Feb 7

                          Re: Should Saucers Spin?

From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 23:50:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 07:18:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?


 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 01:02:18 +0100
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 02:11:52 -0500
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >From: Victor J.Kean <VICTOR_J_KEAN@compuserve.com>
 >Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 03:11:38 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 07:56:19 -0500
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 02:04:26 -0800
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 10:13:30 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?

<snip>

 >One of my oldest friends is a Jewish musician, and I forwarded
 >your question to him.  He was from Michigan originally, and I'm
 >sure there are more haycocks out there than in Berlin.

 >Then, (silly me) I looked in my trusty 1956 edition Websters New
 >Collegiate dictionary and actually found it!

 >Haycock is given as a conical pile of hay. 12-15 meters sounds
 >awfully large to me, but what do I know?

 >It must be terribly difficult piling up that much hay into a
 >nice cone shape instead of an old fashioned heap. Surely they
 >have better things to do.

 >Best wishes

 >- Larry Hatch


Hi all:

You are definitely right about the sizes of these haycocks, or
(hay) wisps: The sizes seems too big!

I went back to the original Norwegian text and found out that
this last sentence about the sizes was missing from the
original, so I just assume that this has been added by the
translator later - maybe due to more available info.

But, I guess the sizes of the haycocks, or wisps, should be 1.2
- 1.5 meters (dots or commas were missing) , or about 40-60
inches in diameter each (i.e., hay packed in a cylindrical
shape; at least _one_ wisp/cock small enough to be carried by
one person). They should then be carryable for both of the men.

However, I have also forwarded a copy of this mail to the
translator ( ole.jonny.branne@cinet.no ), and ask him if he can
explain this "problem".

And, in addition, what is _his_ personal feeling about the
credibility of the observers; after all, the events were
reported many years after they had taken place, and the
observers  must have been influenced by reading about other UFO
sightings during this time (25 - 30 years) - originating from,
e.g., Germany or USA.


Best Regards,

Asgeir













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   Feb > Feb 7

                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 18:17:00 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 07:36:25 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


 >Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 12:52:50 -0600
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 11:18:28 -0500
 >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
 >>Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 17:23:50 -0500
 >>>From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >>>Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Others have already pointed out the plethora of UFO shows
 >>>available. I'll add that I've spent the last 16 years of my life
 >>>as a working journalist here in Canada, in broadcast and print.
 >>>I know a lot of people at AP in the U.S. Name the reporter, I'll
 >>>ask them myself. It's far more likely the reporter spent a week
 >>>looking into UFOs, talked to one too many obvious nutbar or
 >>>raving paranoid and decided it wasn't worth the bother.

 >>I'm not calling Sam a nutbar or a raving paranoid, but claims
 >>that skeptics are government agents are -- at least in my view
 >>-- exactly the kind of thing Michael means. I'm a journalist
 >>myself (20 years as a music critic and music reporter), and one
 >>thing that makes any journalist suspicious is unfounded
 >>accusations. Doesn't matter if the subject is UFOs or the
 >>internal politics of the Boston Symphony. If you hear someone
 >>making serious charges without concrete evidence to back them
 >>up, you write that person off.

 >Well said, Michael and Greg. But something needs to be added, I
 >think, about why we should not charge somebody with being a
 >gummint agent without clear and specific evidence to that
 >effect. I might interject here that I've been called a gummint
 >agent myself on a few occasions. I appeared on a McCarthy-style
 >list Richard Hoagland was circulating some months ago. Once I
 >was fingered as an agent by no less than channeling Space
 >Brothers.

 >Yes, it's amusing -- up to a point. Beyond that, as my friend
 >Bill Chalker once pointed out to me, it's a bit scary. In
 >ufology as in other walks of life, there are plenty of paranoids
 >out there. Some paranoids are armed. I hope I am not sounding
 >like an alarmist when I say that unfounded charges could
 >potentially put somebody at risk of retaliation from a
 >weapon-wielding nut. Armed lunatics striking out against
 >fantasized gummint conspiracies have already caused significant
 >loss of life, so the danger is surely not purely imaginary.

 >In any event, the hurling of reckless accusations against those
 >who merely hold an opinion with which we disagree does more to
 >reduce ufology's credibility than any gummint agent ever could.

Quite so, Mr. Clark...

This world is ruled by violence. "It ain't even safe no more in
the Palace of the Pope!" Sayeth Dylan.

But " ... on that path lies danger ..." (Dune).

Stop wincing. What I mean is that there is far less danger from
armed loony bins as there than unarmed ones. Words bring the
greatest fear to the mind and spirit of we mere mortals than
does a .357 magnum wheel gun.

Truth be known, being armed in some circles is tantamount to
being a loony bin. But the greater danger from men, armed or
otherwise, is not his arm, but his mouth.

And are you aware that men have been killed by words. That kind
of dying is hard. It reduces the immune system to mush. It turns
tight asses into quivering masses of unmolded jelly and takes
with it, the spirit of the man. Words are the biggest danger.
And words are the purview of too many who should be licensed to
write them but are not.

Some write books. Some speak their words. Some write their
opines down in newspapers. Critics carry the most
responsibility and the least judgment. They know everything
there is to know. These are the ex-spurts. Some have never
achieved the status of has beens' and therefor are merely
spurts.

Sorry Jerry, but the danger is from the written and spoken word
proffered by ex-spurts, just spurts and even less often, by
those who have truth. In this age of the Internet, everyone has
access to writin' an' cypherin' and not everyone is prepared for
either the writing of the words or the hearing of such divers
opinions.

Now is a time of learning for all of us. It is a lot like
carrying a gun. Gotta pass the test demonstrating knowledge of
the rules and understanding of the laws. Gotta demonstrate that
you are not now or have ever been, a felon, a crazed Postal
Worker (or other type of crazed person) and must be able to be
spoken for by people such as judges and other important people
like politicians and other criminals. Very important to the
judge that an ADA, Senator, Congressman, City, County or State
official is willing to speak on your behalf. Then you wait for
your FBI, NCIC, State, Federal and local police records (if any)
or fingerprints to show up on the NCIC computer and if all is
well, you get a license.

Sometimes the judge wants to see you in person. Just to make
certain that the picture he's looking at does not hide a nut
case lurking behind the benign grin.

Ah, but virtually anyone can write something, especially on this
venue (the Internet, not EBK's venue) and none of us is licensed
to read OR write here. Kinda scary that is.

Shoot, and you're worried about armed loonies! What about
loonies armed with ill will, with lies, with the gift of BS?
What about crazed paranoid schizoids lurking behind the facade
of sanity. You know, many nuts sound perfectly sane. And some
of them sound VERY sane.

Take my brother in law. Stage two syphilitic, postal worker.
Armed and dangerous. But not from his arms. From inside his
soul. "On your(sic) path lies danger. It points away from a
whole bunch of dangerous people, Jerry.

Let me give you an example. I would rather insult any licensed
citizen (in my state - can't speak for the others) than one or
two of the paranoids who occasionally impute Updates who are NOT
armed. And, I'll take mine out of it's holster and place in the
safe in the first place but NEVER the latter. And to think that
I didn't know that two years ago scares the living bajeebers
outta me.

Jim Mortellaro







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 7

                       Re: New 'Alien Autopsy' Photos?

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 18:33:19 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 07:42:11 -0500
Subject: Re: New 'Alien Autopsy' Photos?


 >Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 13:15:15 -0800
 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >Subject: Re: New 'Alien Autopsy' Photos?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Also what is the USS Shiloh? Were is its home port? That might
 >be telling too.

The Guided Missile Cruiser USS Shiloh (CG-67) is homeported at
San Diego, CA. See

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/ships/ship-cru.html

for more details.

Bond Johnson







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 7

                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 21:43:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 08:03:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 13:54:03 -0800
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Stewart Vs. Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >>Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 16:09:11 -0400
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 07:23:16 -0800
 >>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>>Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:16:17 -0400
 >>>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:58:16 -0800
 >>>>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


As previously noted I have no intention of playing in your
sandbox Ed. Waste your time on somebody else.

Stan Friedman








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   Feb > Feb 7

                          Re: Should Saucers Spin?

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@temporaldoorway.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 20:42:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 08:04:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?


 >Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 12:41:17 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >In 1961 while viewing through binoculars, I, along with three
 >other witnesses, saw what appeared to be a "spinning" saucer.
 >Closer examination revealed the following phenomenon. Around the
 >perimeter of this unknown luminous aerial object (seen at night)
 >were a series of (we'll call them pipes) at the end of each was
 >a red light (or what passed for same). This light went on and
 >off sequentially around the perimeter of the object. Due to
 >persistence of vision it looked like the red light was moving
 >around the object. I have since read similar descriptions of
 >this phenomenon.

In addition, anyone interested in whether or not UFOs actually
spin should have a close look at the Moreland case from 1959.

http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/report/590713.htm

This close observation provides many interesting details in a
clearly witnessed, close range observation.

Obviously, these cases still leave room for observations of
"spin", but as Richard Haines [Observing UFOS, 1980] pointed
out, observation of spin requires a specific reference marking
on the surface in question.

In cases like the two cited above, the reason for the apparent
"revolving" motion of luminous sources remains unknown, and no
correlations with anything other than behavior have been found.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, music and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/index.htm
------







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   Feb > Feb 7

                          Re: Should Saucers Spin?

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@temporaldoorway.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 20:54:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 08:06:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?


 >Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 02:19:54 -0500
 >From: Kelly McGillis <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
 >Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >You know, last
 >year, from my office here I saw a - just a very weird thing.
 >Since I had been a quiet member of Errol's list for about three
 >years, and also a member of the Fortean list, I immediately
 >reported to both.

 >Errol was away and Nic Balaskas asked me all kinds of questions,

 >I tried to explain what I saw that night, and quite frankly the
 >lights ziz-saging were okay, they blew me away, but they were
 >okay, but it was the green light that came out of those other
 >lights that I will never forget.  It *emerged* from one of the
 >lights, like an aquatic animal, and anyway, what is the point of
 >trying to describe anything to this list?

 >At the end of my interrogation I just felt like a stupid idiot.
 >And nothing I said ever made it onto this list.  So!  All you
 >brilliant people ignore perhaps things people see now and yet
 >yap on and on and on about 1947 or something.

 >The one thing I realize is that none of the so-called experts
 >seem to have much to do with, or can't handle, a recent and
 >modern-day event.

Hi, Kelly!

I personally perform a couple of investigations a year. As you
can see at these URLs...

http://www.temporaldoorway.com/mufonct/report/980419.htm
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/mufonct/report/950715/index.htm
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/mufonct/report/970819.htm

which include analyses of the sightings I've investigated,
serious investigation is a complex, time consuming and
potentially error-prone process. But one thing is for sure - it
involves asking a lot of questions. Indeed, I have always
appreciated the willingness of witnesses to anomalous events to
explain, often with excruciating detail and repetition, exactly
what they saw.

Sometimes these questions can be very productive. In one recent
case, the witness insisted on the object appearance as they
sketched it, which revealed that the object was pitched down at
the start of the observation and pitched up at the end, despite
it also following a level course.

Usually about three to five hours of interviewing are needed to
get the basic data of a sighting. In e-mail time that translates
into a lot of messages, especially since the descriptive hand
waving and other useful things one can do face to face are
impossible.

So don't be discouraged. But remember that a UFO story is just a
story until solid quantitaive data like elevation, azimuth,
angular rate at various points, color, angular size, and so
forth, are pinned down as tightly as we can manage after the
fact. That takes work, both from the investigator and from the
witness.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, music and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/index.htm
------









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 7

                       Re: Bennewitz's Report To APRO

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 21:21:52 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 08:08:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Bennewitz's Report To APRO


 >Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 01:17:27 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >Subject: Bennewitz's Report To APRO
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:57:00 -0700
 >>From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@pobox.com>
 >>Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Hi Roger,

 >I want to ask you and the list a question unrelated to the last
 >thread. I followed the Linda Howe, Agent Richard Doty, Dulce
 >Canyon, Christa Tilton, New Mexico State Police, sightings by
 >USAF Air Police within Manzano Canyon, and of course, Paul
 >Bennewitz for many years. I don't think I remember seeing
 >Bennewitz's report to APRO. Have you, Roger? I'd like to see
 >that.

<snip>

 >What did Paul Bennewitz put in his APRO report?


I don't recall anybody responding to this.  Do we have copies of
anything Bennewitz put in his report?  I too have been curious
for years.

Cheers,
Robert










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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 7

                            Re: The Eyes Have It

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 21:27:57 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 08:16:45 -0500
Subject: Re: The Eyes Have It


 >Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 17:00:43 -0500
 >From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com>
 >Subject: Re: The Eyes Have It
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:44:24 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: The Eyes Have It
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Key words here folks is "stare." Once you've been stared at
 >>by one of these critters who are especially adept at it, it's like
 >>the "Mind Meld" only more. The entity gets up really close
 >>and stares at you. Nose to nose and farhead to farhead, this
 >>action causes you to have the emotions the entity wants to
 >>elicit, the physical feelings he (she or it) wants you to have
 >>and that includes a sexual response and last, the entity may
 >>cause you to remember what never really happened and plant
 >>that memory as being real. It can cause you to recall that
 >>which it wants you to recall.

 >>It ain't no fun because on one level, you know what is happening
 >>and cannot do a thing about it.

 >>It's about control. Yours. Namely it ain't. And during those
 >>times, just like the times (and they've been few for me) when
 >>one is witness to a sighting of a UFO, without apparent
 >>abduction, you are fixed in place, unable to do much of
 >>anything. Most especially that which under normal conditions,
 >>you would do, you won't do in that state.

 >>It's almost as if everything, including time, stops right then
 >>and there.

 >>Now, Mr. Randle and Mr. Klass and Mr. or Ms. Whomever, go ahead
 >>and tell me it never happened. Tell me I'm gay, or that I am
 >>having a waking dream or one of those sleep disorder thingies,
 >>sleep paralysis or whatever.

 >>Then, when I laugh or otherwise react in anger, you won't mind
 >>all that much. One thing is certain however, that those of you
 >>who know squat about what you are talking about can still do so
 >>with a straight face, as if you had all the answers. To an
 >>abductee or to a witness, it all sounds so lame it isn't funny.
 >>In fact, it's pathetic. Try harder folks. You ain't there yet.
 >>Hell, you ain't even close.


 >Jim,

 >You obviously have some serious objections to the approach that
 >Kevin Randle and others have taken, but there is a middle ground
 >that both sides have prematurely dismissed as if by mutual
 >consent: That at least some Alien Abduction Experiences are most
 >likely taking place during a period of Awareness during Sleep
 >Paralysis, ASP.

The first factoid is that I belong to only one group and speak
only from the perspective of that group. That "group" being the
group of my own experiences. And so from that perspective, and
having experienced sleep paralysis about thrice (from my
recall), I am saying that some of my perceived alien abduction
experiences have not likely taken place during a period of
awareness during sleep paralysis.

I've experienced two types of sleep paralysis. The first is
simply being paralyised and unable to do anything but breathe
and move my eyes. There was no halucinatory factor to the
experience.

During the second type, I exhibited a freightening dream/reality
during which I felt an unknown presence in the room which I
perceived as being malevolent but which I was not able to
recognize. Clearly this was halucinatory and extremely
freightening because of it's 'unknown" factor.

Neither has or had anything whatever to do with my perceived
abduction experiences. When this begins, I've been there before,
I recognize (often) the players, I am not paralysed in the same
manner and there are subtle differences which distinguish the
experience. Some of these include the absence of sound, the
presence of light and of beings which are highly recognizable
and recognized for what they are. Alien (to my knowledge of that
which is not alien) life forms which communicate by thought and
seem to have a marked propensity towards and interest in my
genitalia. Trust me. Ain't nuttin really special about them
little guys.

 >While this approach share's Dr Randle's insight that the
 >experiencer's _body_ is in a state of sleep paralysis, it makes
 >no assumption that the experiential component of the abduction
 >experience is a hallucination. In particular, no assumption is
 >made that the beings the experiencer seems to perceive are (or
 >are not) hallucinations projected outward by the unconscious.

With all due respect to Dr. Randle, I do not accept what I've
read of his insight from the standpoint of my perceptions and
experiences. It is what I have to go by. That the experiences of
others with whom I've spoken and investigators and researchers
whose opinions I respect and appear to parallel my own
experiences, the motion is carried. In my opinion.

 >After all, if we are willing to conceed that the experiencer is
 >accurately perceiving the paralyzed condition of his/her body,
 >then an open-minded individual may well wonder what other parts
 >of the experiencer's report reflect a perception rather than a
 >hallucination.

Oh, how nice. I suppose I should be happy that a point in favor
of a piece of truth is conceded. I am not happy. You may begin
to shrink back involuntarily (as from pain) or recoiling, as the
case may be. You may begin now.

Also, please feel free to feel sorry for me, as I am not really
happy with my life. My goldfish died and the terlit is stopped
up with bovine excrement from reading a post or two. I am going
to require the services of a plumber. Perhaps I shall call he
National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

Nah, I got the president and his first lady right down the road
as my neighbors. No plumber worth his salt is gonna wanna come
close.

Now you may _really_ begin feeling sorry for me.










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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 7

                                     Re:

From: dledger@ns.sympatico.ca (Donald . Ledger)
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 23:15:40 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 08:28:47 -0500
Subject: Re:

 >Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 16:46:37 -0500
 >From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Dear Mr. Ledger, Serge, and the rest of the List, too.

Dear Mr.Wood,

Since we are being so formal [BTW any relation to the trumpet
player of great arranging skills?]

 >I'll take it point by point so there is absolutely no mistaking
 >my intent. Don't worry, I'll write slowly, assuming you can't
 >read too fast, or often.

No I can't.

 >>Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 22:24:58 -0300
 >>From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca
 >
 ><snip>

 >>>>Outside of a "paranormal" show or two - rare to find hard news on
 >>>>the UFO subject without some "spin" from a major TV, Cable
 >>>>network or major media like the AP, who cancelled a major UFO
 >>>>investigation story after one of their important reporters spent
 >>>>a week on it - never got to the media!

 >>>Others have already pointed out the plethora of UFO shows
 >>>available. I'll add that I've spent the last 16 years of my life
 >>>as a working journalist here in Canada, in broadcast and print. I
 >>>know a lot of people at AP in the U.S. Name the reporter, I'll
 >>>ask them myself. It's far more likely the reporter spent a week

 >>A week....?? Wow!

 >Yes, in the real world of working journalists, spending a week
 >on a story is a significant investment of time.

 >When I was a radio reporter, I would frequently file five
 >unrelated stories a day!

Yeah that's accepted. But how about something on the side. I
know... a feature. Seriously since you've told me - which I
didn't know - that you are In the Life as the hookers like to
say, you are likely to have a whole lot of background info
anyway so you know that not all of this UFO thing is crap. The
15 or 20 percent or perhaps more that taints the rest of it. So
why the general attack?

 >A journalist working on one story can contact literally hundreds
 >of people in week in regards to that story... and if he or she
 >is contacting hundreds of people in the UFO community, they will
 >hit a higher than average number of people who will tell them
 >with complete sincerity that they get coded messages beamed into
 >their fillings from Zeta Reticulae.

 >That gets tiresome after awhile.

Yeah, but how often does that happen. I've been at this for
about 7 years now and sniffing around for another 30, and I've
yet to run into more than a few that are "off the wall".

 >You don't think so?

 >Have you ever been to a major UFO conference. Tell me you didn't
 >talk to anyone that even vaguely resembles that. It's
 >unfortunate, but true.

 >>>type. Any reporter who could acquire real, not faked or
 >>>imagined, evidence of UFOs, or a government conspiracy to cover
 >>>up UFOs, would have their career made. The book offers,
 >>>employment opportunities, TV appearances and casual sex from
 >>>total strangers would be overwhelming.

 >>That will likely be one of us Mike, not some reporter slugging
 >>away. No book offers, employment opportunities, TV appearances
 >>and casual sex from total strangers for you.

 >Good thing, too, my wife would kill me. But if the March 11th
 >NASA video release of tapes made by a Vancouver B.C. Cable TV
 >station manager are half of what is promised, you'll have to ask
 >yourself why none of "you" thought about tuning the satellite
 >dish to NASA Select while the VCR was running.

I wish I could but it ain't available out here in the Far East.
Mark me down for a copy. Pass it along to the those concerned.

 >>>And that would just be the first week. And any reporter who was
 >>>working on a UFO story and got ordered off by management because
 >>>of pressure from above would quit and go to his past employer's
 >>>number one competitor to spill the beans on the story that got
 >>>them fired.

 >>Now that is BS. Walk indeed over a story? Come on Mike, we've
 >>all seen the Front Page. That's a journalistic myth. The
 >>hardnosed reporter who'll do anything to get at the truth.
 >>The only one who got at the truth in this country lately is the
 >>Auditor General, finding a Billion dollars unaccounted for.
 >>Where the hell were you guys. Out trying to shmooze up the
 >>latest communications job with PMO's office.Out of the 100 or so
 >>reporters I've come across in the course of my job in the last
 >>25 years, I've come to admire only two. The rest were in it for
 >>a step-up into something a little cushier.Besides, what the point
 >>of going from one Conrad Black paper to another?

 >Actually, the last half of your paragraph undermines the first
 >half.

 >Picture it, I'm a working reporter with proof of the existence
 >of UFOs and a government cover-up of same. My editor, producer,
 >whatever tells me the government knows I have this and is
 >killing the story. So, because I'm the passive, weak-willed kind
 >of individual who gravitates to reporting jobs, I forego the
 >above mentioned rewards because I want a step up to something a
 >little cushier, meekly agree to drop the story and go about
 >writing up an obit on a local celebrity.

 >Talk about BS.

Hey, BS is in the eye of the beholder.

 >And if I'm not mistaken, that auditors report on the missing
 >billion became public _after_ a National Post freedom of
 >information request for it.

I thought it came out in the AG's report, but I must admit... I
did hear/see or read it in/on the news. Score one for you.

 ><snip>

 >>>Why wasn't that (Three Mile Island) hushed, it sure didn't do
 >>>anything good for the government or the multi-billion nuke
 >>>energy industry.

 >>Because of the multi-multi-multi gazillion dollar oil industry.

 >And as we are all aware, there is no such thing as corporate
 >overlap, and certainly the people who sit on the Board of
 >Standard Oil wouldn't be on the board of Edison Power. Never
 >happens.

 ><snip>

 >>>If the media were as vulnerable to control from outside sources
 >>>as you like to imagine, you'd never hear about automobile recalls
 >>>in the news

 >>You mean if it hadn't been for Ralph Nader... the father of
 >>recalls.

 >Kind of miss the point here. I didn't say there wouldn't be car
 >recalls if not for the media... but you wouldn't hear about
 >recalls if the outside influence accusations were true.

 ><snip>

 >>Too bad you couldn't do that to Paul Martin re his reluctance to
 >>cease excessive EI salary deductions.

 >Don, here we agree. No if, ands, or buts. EI deductions, a
 >vampire-like escalating tax on your income, increased federal
 >government fees... and let's not talk about the GST, before the
 >Liberals or since. And worst of all, unless there's a miracle,
 >Paul Martin will be our next P.M., yet another guy who redefines
 >Velcro lips in government.

You know that the latter remark is all up to you voters in Ont.
It don't matter dick what the rest of us think.

 ><snip>

 >>I usually find that they call their local astronomer, each of
 >>whom is supposed to be some type of UFO expert.Better to call a
 >>atmospheric physicist-someone who actually looks at the first 60
 >>miles upward,not someone who concerns themselves with something 15
 >>light-years away.

 >Again, and for the last time we agree.

 ><big snip>

 >>Stop looking for the quick fix. This is a business. So what.

 >>The truth has been thrown at you for the last fifty years or so.

 >It might be truth, it's certainly evidence... what it isn't, is
 >proof.

It is by the standards of Common Law justice. It just doesn't
apply to the para-normal. The cop was right. His testimony in
any other venue is likely to put some one away. But when he says
he saw this huge thing in the sky, he's just another boob like
the rest of us.

 >>These people police the streets and highways, fly, fight and die
 >>for your country. They fly over a billion people all over the
 >>planet each year. They are called airline pilots.

 >I hate to break the news to you, Don, but if you had read my
 >posts on UpDates over the last few years, or had seen me when
 >I appeared on the Dini Show on CTV, or Jane Hawtin or WTN, or
 >the New Music, on MuchMusic and City-TV you'd have heard me tell
 >those people that if you were arrested and charged with a crime
 >you didn't commit, and the quality of UFO witness were to
 >testify against you in court, you'd go to jail. And I always
 >mention pilots, especially military ones, who are trained to
 >know what they are looking at in the sky.

Sorry Mike, but I didn't know. I thought this intervention was
one of, or perhaps even your first. I've been lurking around
this list for nearly 3 years now. Sometimes I click delete too
soon. Hair trigger.

 ><snip>

 >>If you are in the room with ten people, chances are one of them
 >>has had a sighting.

 >Hell, Don, if I'm in a room by myself I'm with someone who's had
 >a sighting, close range, long duration, totally inexplicable...
 >convincing evidence to me, but not proof.

Pass it along will you?

 >>Mike, don't be so smug. The fact of the matter is you don't have
 >>the balls to look into this. Too afraid of what the guy or girl
 >>on the next desk will think of you. You are wallowing in your
 >>own ignorance pal. It's evident from everything you said above
 >>that you haven't walked one yard to check into this. But you are
 >>curious, or you wouldn't be here.

The above paragraph is obviously not applicable since as you say
you are steeped in the same mess as the rest of us.

 >Don, sometimes you should learn a little about someone before
 >figuring you know them. There's an old line about don't
 >assume... you fit the description for both sides of the balance
 >of that line.

You mean ass out of U and me?

Well now, in fairness I'd never heard of you, yet you were
kicking my butt in a general sort of way, by association, along
with many others. That's what was energizing me. Incidentally I
wasn't intervening due to any general feeling that there is a
conspiracy by the govt. to shut up the press and that the press
caves in to it. That someone else's beef. I've seen enough in my
own little UFO world to see that someone is applying pressure.
But it's subtle. And a little scarey. A producer here, just
getting involved, has only been at it for a couple of weeks and
asks me why his phone sounds funny, and why a strange ladder was
leaning up against his house when he gets home. I told him not
to be paranoid. More likely just an over-eager milkman. That
seemed to calm him down.

 >Don, my balls are so small, after growing up in the toughest
 >housing project in Toronto, I was a U.N. peacekeeper in Cyprus
 >during the Turkish Invasion of the mid-70's.

It happens to mine when I'm cold.

 >These days, my balls are so small, I park my blue Ford Probe
 >(get it?) with the custom license plates that read UFO GUY on
 >the lot every day at CITY-TV... the same car I drive all over
 >Toronto.

 >My balls are so small, I've admitted a belief in UFOs, without
 >real proof, on national television on three separate occasions.
 >I'm so afraid of what my colleagues think that new staff at
 >CITY-TV are instructed to pass callers reporting UFO sightings
 >on to me... and other producers and the news director consult me
 >when a UFO story hits the wires... which they do with increasing
 >regularity.

 >As for walking a yard to look into this... Don, you must be one
 >of the few researchers Erroll didn't introduce me to during the
 >Roswell '97 festival. I guess it was too far to walk.

No... too bloody expensive to get there and not enough time.
Don't forget I'm 900 miles further to the east, and the Great
Lakes get in the way. Makes it tough to travel in straight
lines, even in my plane.

 ><snip>

 >>I'll set you a problem Mike. Prove to me that the United States
 >>landed men on the moon. Don't get me wrong. I'm not one of those
 >>conspiratists who believe the Capricorn One scenario. I believe
 >>the United States did land men on the moon in the late 60s and
 >>early 70s. But I can't prove it. The is no provable physical
 >>evidence that they did.(Have you ever actually seen a
 >>moonrock, touched it, smelled it, tasted its moon-flavored
 >>goodness?)

 >Actually, I have seen a moon rock on display. Or what I was told
 >was a moon rock, I didn't follow it on the trip here. Touch it,
 >smell it, taste it? No.

 >Moon rocks are kept in fairly airtight containers, scientists
 >who get to handle it usually work clean-room conditions.

 >On the other hand, when was the last time you eye-balled an
 >atom. So how do you know atoms exist?

Yeah, but if you think about it, everything you would say to
prove it could apply to the UFO question. Photos, video,
anecdotal evidence, really reliable witnesses, even the rocks.
To me they are just rocks... you seen one... Some geologist
swears they are moon rocks but, maybe he's just crazy. Now if I
was livimg on the Moon and a Lunar Module landed on my front
lawn, then I have the proof of my own eyes. Of course my next
door Moon neighbour would likely think I was nuts.

 >>BTW Mike, I'm one of those ordinary, fantasizing, nutcases you
 >>were talking about. I'm a pilot, a writer and a technologist,
 >>and a producer of sorts - in television. I'm married with three
 >>children each of whom have children of their own - 7
 >>grandchildren in all. I drive fly and exist. I pay taxes,
 >>overspend my credit card like a good little consumer, reason
 >>things out and once had the wind knocked out of my sails when I
 >>saw a UFO. Up 'til then this was a very interesting phenomenon.

 >>Now it's personal.

 >Yes, Don, very personal. I can admire two attributes of yours,
 >the pilot's license and the fact that you're published, author
 >of 'The Maritime UFO Files', if I'm not mistaken.We'll be
 >charitable and blame the originality of the title on the
 >publisher.  I'll remind you what Heinlein said, "Writing is
 >nothing to be ashamed of. Just do it in private and wash your
 >hands afterward."

Actually that's something like it. I wanted to call it the
Maritime UFO Stuff, but they changed it. Publishers. actually
I'm up to three now, so I'll be washing my hands a lot.

 >I'm not sure what the hell a technologist is, does that mean you
 >use an electric can opener or something...

Hey, right on. I don't know what it means either.

 >and you're a producer
 >of sorts... in television. Well, yes, correct me if I'm wrong
 >but don't you work for the Nova Scotia government channel or
 >something?

No they work for me. And I'm not sure what I am there either. I
know what I do but when you get the gov. involved they like to
change things. My talent are 52 members of the House over which
I have no control. The ball kicking goes the other way rather
than me having the whip hand. I guess you would-in the real
world-call me a director/producer but the NS gov. pays a
director [one rank below a dep.min.] more than they are prepared
to pay me. So I'm called a Coordinator???

 >Unlike myself, you didn't list your affiliation. (By the way,
 >conspiracy/government cover-up types, relax. Nova Scotia is
 >arguably Canada's prettiest province. Not the biggest shaker on
 >the national stage. The only secrets it would be covering up,
 >other than Shag Harbor (see Don for details) would be the
 >provincial incest rate.)

Incidentally that's Harbour with a U, however I see the edited
manuscript sent back to me has managed to change every one of
them to your American spelling.

 >Other than that, I do look forward to meeting you face to face
 >at the next UFO conference here in Ontario... or maybe I'll
 >travel a couple yards for the next big UFO gathering in Nova
 >Scotia.

Well now Ontario is a bit closer, and managable. Let me know
when a big one comes up, conference I mean. As for us having one
down here, all you will need is a 24 of Moosehead Dry and bag of
Cheesies. We'll supply the motel room.Either way we will meet.
EBK can moderate.

Best,

Don Ledger








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                Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@temporaldoorway.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 22:30:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:10:16 -0500
Subject: Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes


 >Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 10:42:34 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>You need to find what Mark Cashman, in many posts here,
 >>has called "discriminators" -- things that would be true if
 >>abduction imagery was derived by science fiction, and would
 >>_not_ be true if it was derived from real encounters with
 >>aliens.

 >What would be an example of such a discriminator?

 >>And, no, you can't first ask for proof that the aliens are
 >>real.

Hi, Bob!

Information about the normal scientific process as applied to
UFOs can be found at

http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/methodology/whatkindofscience.htm

Examples of such discriminators in the case of your hypothesis
that the specific abduction account could be explained as a
fabrication or hallucination based on science-fiction imagery,
specifically, the "War of the Worlds" film would be

1) Demonstration through psychiatric means that the claimant is
unstable and prone to hallucination.

2) Demonstration through character testimony from persons with a
relationship to the claimant that the claimant has a history of
fabrication.

These would be the most obvious discriminators. As Greg has
pointed out, the mere coincidence of imagination and reality is
not unheard of. Indeed, much has been made of the coincidence of
Jonathan Swift's "prediction" of certain aspects of the Martian
moons, but unless we wish to invoke some really strange
theories, this was just a coincidence of imagination and
reality. We will not, for instance, theorize that our
understanding of those elements of the Martian moons is a mere
imagining.

On the other side of this case, multiple independent witnesses
to the observation would be the best discriminator of its
reality- based truth. Short of that, specific medical or
physical evidence with a small possibility of such evidence
being able to be fabricated by the witness would be suggestive.

No doubt, lacking any of these four discriminators, some less
certain, but perhaps cumulative discriminators could be
developed.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, music and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/index.htm
------









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                               The Smell Test

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 22:05:29 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:13:00 -0500
Subject: The Smell Test


Hello all...

There is a point to the following little story so grant me the
charity of your attention, if you please.

I was once with a group of friends that decided to go dancing.
As life would have it, my dancing sucks so I sat it out while
everyone else cut a rug (or what ever the current term is). I
noticed a guy on the dance floor that, to me anyway, seemed
really, really proficient. In fact, he seemed like he was or
could be a professional dancer. However, one of our group
actually was a professional dancer and shook her head.

"Doesn't have the moves", she concluded. I asked her to
elaborate and she couldn't. Now, understand, she wasn't being a
dance snob. "It's like trying to explain how to walk," she said.
"It's just not something that can be explained. But trust me,
the guy is an amateur."

I suddenly realized that much is the same with the whole UFO
identification problem and the AA saga, in particular. For
instance, having spent years in the operating room documenting
surgical techniques both on 16mm and in drawings, I feel
confident that the docs presented in AA are fake. What
specifically is wrong? I can't put it into words, but I know
they don't "seem" right. In addition, other things about the
look and feel of the AA don't ring true; like it was designed
more to match the general public's _perception_ of what archival
footage might look like as opposed to what what archival footage
_really_ looks like.

Likewise, there is a feeling someone gets when they witness
something that is "real" vs something that is "illusionary" (is
there such a word?). I think this accounts for the frustrations
that occur when an abductee is trying to reconcile his or her
experiences. Perhaps it can't be proven by words, alone. But
they know that it "feels" right; that it's real. Same goes for
sightings, I think. Regardless of what others may think of the
witness's experience(s), the witness knows that the event passed
the "smell test" as an event of real import.

It may walk the walk, but try and _explain_ the walk to someone
else? Tough job...

None of this solves a damn thing, of course. Just food for
thought.

night,

Roger Evans
MovieStuff, Houston







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                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 23:36:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:16:34 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


 >Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 22:24:58 -0300
 >From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 17:23:50 -0500
 >>From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >>Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:26:03 -0500 (EST)
 >>>From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@aol.com>
 >>>Subject: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Don wrote:

<snip>

 >Mike, don't be so smug. The fact of the matter is you don't have
 >the balls to look into this. Too afraid of what the guy or girl
 >on the next desk will think of you. You are wallowing in your
 >own ignorance pal. It's evident from everything you said above
 >that you haven't walked one yard to check into this. But you are
 >curious, or you wouldn't be here.

Gentlemen,

I have a feeling this thread is going to get 'hot' real quick so
I thought I'd jump in and out real quick before it does.  :)

Don, we've been e-mail friends for several years. I'm going to
impose on that relationship and ask you to take me at my word.

Your above statement is _wrong_ about Mike Woods! He _has_ taken
the time to do his 'homework.' I know because I became a part of
it! :)

I had an oportunity to spend a few days with Mike, his lovely
wife, and several others at the Roswell 50th anniversary
convention a couple of years ago. I found Mike to be very
intelligent, (sharp) funny, and a 'no nonsense' kind of guy. In
short, I grew to like the man in the brief time we got to spend
together. I'm not trying to sell you on his personality however.
My reason for writing is to tell you that Mike had a bunch of
pointed questions at the ready for me (re: abduction) and I
found him to be _very_ interested in the subject (UFOs) as well
as knowledgable. When you accuse him of not having, "walked one
yard to check into this" you are 'barking up the wrong tree.'

I like both you guys. I hope you both can 'talk' this through
without unecessary bloodshed. <LOL>

My best to you both.

John Velez









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                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 00:01:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:21:03 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


 >Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 17:47:11 -0600
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 16:20:25 -0500
 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >>Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 >>I think it was Sherlock Holmes that said the best place to hide
 >>something is right out in open view. :)

 >Isn't it Sherlock Holmes WHO said? Actually, I think it was
 >Edgar Allan Poe, probably in "The Purloined Letter" or
 >thereabouts.

You have to forgive my poor writing/grammar Sasquatch. At age 50
I still invert "i and e," and if it wasn't for Eudora
'Spellchecker' you'd think I was writing in another language!
<lol>

I wrote:

 >>There were a few news reports recently that dealt with
 >>_government_financing_and_editing_ of the content of certain
 >>popular TV programs. They were paying the producers to run drug
 >>abuse material that the government had pre-approved. Apparently
 >>they had some pretty strict guidelines and standards for how the
 >>material was to be presented.

Dennis responds:

 >This is a misrepresentation of what took place, which is a
 >tempest in a teapot (and thank the English wag that came up with
 >that one).

 >As I understand it, network broadcasters owe the government so
 >much air time over the course of a year in the form of public
 >service announcements. It occurred to one network accountant or
 >policy wonk, and then no doubt to others, that if they used an
 >anti-drug message (as part of dialogue) in one of their sitcoms
 >or entertainment programs, they might be able to get credit
 >toward their public service announcement airtime debt. Again, as
 >I understand it, the FCC agreed to credit such actions. That's
 >it. End of story, end of conspiracy. There was no arm of the FCC
 >cramming an anti-drug message (or policy) down network throats,
 >or censoring and strong-arming TV script writers and producers;
 >i.e., no prior censorship, script review, or dictation of
 >editorial content.

I think it all depends on what 'angle' you view it from Dennis.
"Money/time" is always a _huge_ incentive. No matter how you
slice it, (the upshot is) that Uncle Sam got -dialog- (whether
right or wrong) into _several_ (not just one) commercial TV
programs. If, as an American, you don't see the very real and
potential danger in such dealings then debating the point here
won't do me or you any good. Bob had asked' "What government
control of TV programs" and I was merely providing him with a
'fresh' recent example.

I wrote"

 >>The 'old man' (Klass) has long standing ties to groups that are
 >>based in Washington DC. It would be interesting to know where
 >>they get the funding to send dolts like Joe Nickel (who is
 >>barely qualified to pull a rabbit out of a hat at a kiddie party)
 >>travelling all over the world just so they can appear on these
 >>programs as bona fide UFO 'experts'.

Dennis asks:

 >John, do you really think that's the way the world works? That
 >Klass, CSICOP, or even Nickell himself "paid" his way on to the
 >TV program you were on (and others)?

I never said they "paid their way onto the program" Dennis. I
was questioning the organizations funding sources. There's a
difference.

 >Turn the tables for a moment and give us your short list of UFO
 >experts you would like to see annointed as official spokespersons
 >for the field. Five will suffice, unless you already had ten in mind.

First of all, I don't believe in 'UFO experts' (I don't think
there is any such thing) so I'm not real big on 'anointing'
anyone for anything! The one guy I _can_ think of is dead. J.
Allen Hyneck.

 >>"Following the money" at CSICOP _could_ be an interesting and
 >>possibly very revealing endeavor methinks!  :)

 >>But that's just my own little "theory."  <VBG>

 >Could be interesting, agreed. But I doubt you would turn up any
 >CIA or other intelligence agency fingerprints, if that's what
 >you're thinking.

I agree. If those monkeys are involved, they are expert at
'covering their tracks.' It would probably take someone as
_devious_ as they are to find it.

 >Hell, why should the government pay these people to think and behave
 >the way they do when they are perfectly happy and willing to do it
 >on their own? Makes no sense.

C'mon Dennis. Of course it makes sense to financially back
groups that can/will advance your agenda. That's what they call
"doing regular business" in Washington DC! $ makes the world go
round. :)

 >Would you look a thoroughbred gift horse in the mouth?

Nope.  -I'd bet the ranch on him!-

Regards,

John Velez







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                 A Film - New Findings and Roswell Linkage -

From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:43:23 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:23:49 -0500
Subject: A Film - New Findings and Roswell Linkage -


All,

My appologies to list memebers who have attempted to access the
web address I gave below. Due to a typo on my part directly
accessing this address has been returning error404's over the
ast 12 hrs. I have now corrected the problem and it is
available. Those accessing the page via the sites own links
should have had no probs.

Sorry to all who called in and found the door locked<g>.

http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/new-1/aalink/index.htm

Is now open..

Neil.


--
*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *
Neil Morris.       /101101101 Virtual Bumper Stickers Inc 10110101010\
Dept of Physics.   1                                                 1
Univ of Manchester 0                                                 0
Schuster Labs.     1  Computer Programmers DO IT with BITS of BYTES  1
Brunswick St.      0                                                 0
Manchester.        1                                                 1
UK.                \0101010110010110110010110101101011011110101011010/
G8KOQ


              E-mail: neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk

Roswell and Alien Autopsy Archive->   http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/
Dave Willetts Home Page->     http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/dave_willetts/
Mike Sterling Home Page->     http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/mike-s/
Tim Morgan Home Page   ->     http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/tim-m/

*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *








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              Re: The Mathews', Morris & Buckley Bail On UFOIN

From: "E. Campos ou O. Raynaud" <raynaud@total.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 09:04:25 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:24:37 -0500
Subject: Re: The Mathews', Morris & Buckley Bail On UFOIN

Date : Monday, 07 Feb 2000
 From Richard D. Nolane raynaud@total.net
Subject : Re: The Matthews, Morris & Buckley Bail On UFOIN
To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 16:16:59 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Tim Mathews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >Subject: The Mathews', Morris & Buckley Bail On UFOIN
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca
 >
 >
 >Dear All,
 >
 >As of tonight, 4th February 2000 - the following have
 >unsubscribed from the UFO Investigator's Network list and will
 >no longer be associated with it.
 >
 >Best wishes,
 >
 >Tim Matthews
 >Lynda Matthews
 >Eric Morris
 >Carolyn Buckley


Dear List,

Something wrong with the "Rebirth of Ufology in England" ?


RDN







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              Re: The Mathews', Morris & Buckley Bail On UFOIN

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 09:04:25 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:26:16 -0500
Subject: Re: The Mathews', Morris & Buckley Bail On UFOIN


 >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 16:16:59 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Tim Mathews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >Subject: The Mathews', Morris & Buckley Bail On UFOIN
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Dear All,

 >As of tonight, 4th February 2000 - the following have
 >unsubscribed from the UFO Investigator's Network list and will
 >no longer be associated with it.

 >Best wishes,

 >Tim Matthews
 >Lynda Matthews
 >Eric Morris
 >Carolyn Buckley


Dear List,

Something wrong with the "Rebirth of Ufology in England"?


RDN







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                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: dledger@ns.sympatico.ca (Donald . Ledger)
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 23:15:40 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:27:49 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

 >Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 16:46:37 -0500
 >From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Dear Mr. Ledger, Serge, and the rest of the List, too.

Dear Mr.Wood,

Since we are being so formal [BTW any relation to the trumpet
player of great arranging skills?]

 >I'll take it point by point so there is absolutely no mistaking
 >my intent. Don't worry, I'll write slowly, assuming you can't
 >read too fast, or often.

No I can't.

 >>Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 22:24:58 -0300
 >>From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca
 >
 ><snip>

 >>>>Outside of a "paranormal" show or two - rare to find hard news on
 >>>>the UFO subject without some "spin" from a major TV, Cable
 >>>>network or major media like the AP, who cancelled a major UFO
 >>>>investigation story after one of their important reporters spent
 >>>>a week on it - never got to the media!

 >>>Others have already pointed out the plethora of UFO shows
 >>>available. I'll add that I've spent the last 16 years of my life
 >>>as a working journalist here in Canada, in broadcast and print. I
 >>>know a lot of people at AP in the U.S. Name the reporter, I'll
 >>>ask them myself. It's far more likely the reporter spent a week

 >>A week....?? Wow!

 >Yes, in the real world of working journalists, spending a week
 >on a story is a significant investment of time.

 >When I was a radio reporter, I would frequently file five
 >unrelated stories a day!

Yeah that's accepted. But how about something on the side. I
know... a feature. Seriously since you've told me - which I
didn't know - that you are In the Life as the hookers like to
say, you are likely to have a whole lot of background info
anyway so you know that not all of this UFO thing is crap. The
15 or 20 percent or perhaps more that taints the rest of it. So
why the general attack?

 >A journalist working on one story can contact literally hundreds
 >of people in week in regards to that story... and if he or she
 >is contacting hundreds of people in the UFO community, they will
 >hit a higher than average number of people who will tell them
 >with complete sincerity that they get coded messages beamed into
 >their fillings from Zeta Reticulae.

 >That gets tiresome after awhile.

Yeah, but how often does that happen. I've been at this for
about 7 years now and sniffing around for another 30, and I've
yet to run into more than a few that are "off the wall".

 >You don't think so?

 >Have you ever been to a major UFO conference. Tell me you didn't
 >talk to anyone that even vaguely resembles that. It's
 >unfortunate, but true.

 >>>type. Any reporter who could acquire real, not faked or
 >>>imagined, evidence of UFOs, or a government conspiracy to cover
 >>>up UFOs, would have their career made. The book offers,
 >>>employment opportunities, TV appearances and casual sex from
 >>>total strangers would be overwhelming.

 >>That will likely be one of us Mike, not some reporter slugging
 >>away. No book offers, employment opportunities, TV appearances
 >>and casual sex from total strangers for you.

 >Good thing, too, my wife would kill me. But if the March 11th
 >NASA video release of tapes made by a Vancouver B.C. Cable TV
 >station manager are half of what is promised, you'll have to ask
 >yourself why none of "you" thought about tuning the satellite
 >dish to NASA Select while the VCR was running.

I wish I could but it ain't available out here in the Far East.
Mark me down for a copy. Pass it along to the those concerned.

 >>>And that would just be the first week. And any reporter who was
 >>>working on a UFO story and got ordered off by management because
 >>>of pressure from above would quit and go to his past employer's
 >>>number one competitor to spill the beans on the story that got
 >>>them fired.

 >>Now that is BS. Walk indeed over a story? Come on Mike, we've
 >>all seen the Front Page. That's a journalistic myth. The
 >>hardnosed reporter who'll do anything to get at the truth.
 >>The only one who got at the truth in this country lately is the
 >>Auditor General, finding a Billion dollars unaccounted for.
 >>Where the hell were you guys. Out trying to shmooze up the
 >>latest communications job with PMO's office.Out of the 100 or so
 >>reporters I've come across in the course of my job in the last
 >>25 years, I've come to admire only two. The rest were in it for
 >>a step-up into something a little cushier.Besides, what the point
 >>of going from one Conrad Black paper to another?

 >Actually, the last half of your paragraph undermines the first
 >half.

 >Picture it, I'm a working reporter with proof of the existence
 >of UFOs and a government cover-up of same. My editor, producer,
 >whatever tells me the government knows I have this and is
 >killing the story. So, because I'm the passive, weak-willed kind
 >of individual who gravitates to reporting jobs, I forego the
 >above mentioned rewards because I want a step up to something a
 >little cushier, meekly agree to drop the story and go about
 >writing up an obit on a local celebrity.

 >Talk about BS.

Hey, BS is in the eye of the beholder.

 >And if I'm not mistaken, that auditors report on the missing
 >billion became public _after_ a National Post freedom of
 >information request for it.

I thought it came out in the AG's report, but I must admit... I
did hear/see or read it in/on the news. Score one for you.

 ><snip>

 >>>Why wasn't that (Three Mile Island) hushed, it sure didn't do
 >>>anything good for the government or the multi-billion nuke
 >>>energy industry.

 >>Because of the multi-multi-multi gazillion dollar oil industry.

 >And as we are all aware, there is no such thing as corporate
 >overlap, and certainly the people who sit on the Board of
 >Standard Oil wouldn't be on the board of Edison Power. Never
 >happens.

 ><snip>

 >>>If the media were as vulnerable to control from outside sources
 >>>as you like to imagine, you'd never hear about automobile recalls
 >>>in the news

 >>You mean if it hadn't been for Ralph Nader... the father of
 >>recalls.

 >Kind of miss the point here. I didn't say there wouldn't be car
 >recalls if not for the media... but you wouldn't hear about
 >recalls if the outside influence accusations were true.

 ><snip>

 >>Too bad you couldn't do that to Paul Martin re his reluctance to
 >>cease excessive EI salary deductions.

 >Don, here we agree. No if, ands, or buts. EI deductions, a
 >vampire-like escalating tax on your income, increased federal
 >government fees... and let's not talk about the GST, before the
 >Liberals or since. And worst of all, unless there's a miracle,
 >Paul Martin will be our next P.M., yet another guy who redefines
 >Velcro lips in government.

You know that the latter remark is all up to you voters in Ont.
It don't matter dick what the rest of us think.

 ><snip>

 >>I usually find that they call their local astronomer, each of
 >>whom is supposed to be some type of UFO expert.Better to call a
 >>atmospheric physicist-someone who actually looks at the first 60
 >>miles upward,not someone who concerns themselves with something 15
 >>light-years away.

 >Again, and for the last time we agree.

 ><big snip>

 >>Stop looking for the quick fix. This is a business. So what.

 >>The truth has been thrown at you for the last fifty years or so.

 >It might be truth, it's certainly evidence... what it isn't, is
 >proof.

It is by the standards of Common Law justice. It just doesn't
apply to the para-normal. The cop was right. His testimony in
any other venue is likely to put some one away. But when he says
he saw this huge thing in the sky, he's just another boob like
the rest of us.

 >>These people police the streets and highways, fly, fight and die
 >>for your country. They fly over a billion people all over the
 >>planet each year. They are called airline pilots.

 >I hate to break the news to you, Don, but if you had read my
 >posts on UpDates over the last few years, or had seen me when
 >I appeared on the Dini Show on CTV, or Jane Hawtin or WTN, or
 >the New Music, on MuchMusic and City-TV you'd have heard me tell
 >those people that if you were arrested and charged with a crime
 >you didn't commit, and the quality of UFO witness were to
 >testify against you in court, you'd go to jail. And I always
 >mention pilots, especially military ones, who are trained to
 >know what they are looking at in the sky.

Sorry Mike, but I didn't know. I thought this intervention was
one of, or perhaps even your first. I've been lurking around
this list for nearly 3 years now. Sometimes I click delete too
soon. Hair trigger.

 ><snip>

 >>If you are in the room with ten people, chances are one of them
 >>has had a sighting.

 >Hell, Don, if I'm in a room by myself I'm with someone who's had
 >a sighting, close range, long duration, totally inexplicable...
 >convincing evidence to me, but not proof.

Pass it along will you?

 >>Mike, don't be so smug. The fact of the matter is you don't have
 >>the balls to look into this. Too afraid of what the guy or girl
 >>on the next desk will think of you. You are wallowing in your
 >>own ignorance pal. It's evident from everything you said above
 >>that you haven't walked one yard to check into this. But you are
 >>curious, or you wouldn't be here.

The above paragraph is obviously not applicable since as you say
you are steeped in the same mess as the rest of us.

 >Don, sometimes you should learn a little about someone before
 >figuring you know them. There's an old line about don't
 >assume... you fit the description for both sides of the balance
 >of that line.

You mean ass out of U and me?

Well now, in fairness I'd never heard of you, yet you were
kicking my butt in a general sort of way, by association, along
with many others. That's what was energizing me. Incidentally I
wasn't intervening due to any general feeling that there is a
conspiracy by the govt. to shut up the press and that the press
caves in to it. That someone else's beef. I've seen enough in my
own little UFO world to see that someone is applying pressure.
But it's subtle. And a little scarey. A producer here, just
getting involved, has only been at it for a couple of weeks and
asks me why his phone sounds funny, and why a strange ladder was
leaning up against his house when he gets home. I told him not
to be paranoid. More likely just an over-eager milkman. That
seemed to calm him down.

 >Don, my balls are so small, after growing up in the toughest
 >housing project in Toronto, I was a U.N. peacekeeper in Cyprus
 >during the Turkish Invasion of the mid-70's.

It happens to mine when I'm cold.

 >These days, my balls are so small, I park my blue Ford Probe
 >(get it?) with the custom license plates that read UFO GUY on
 >the lot every day at CITY-TV... the same car I drive all over
 >Toronto.

 >My balls are so small, I've admitted a belief in UFOs, without
 >real proof, on national television on three separate occasions.
 >I'm so afraid of what my colleagues think that new staff at
 >CITY-TV are instructed to pass callers reporting UFO sightings
 >on to me... and other producers and the news director consult me
 >when a UFO story hits the wires... which they do with increasing
 >regularity.

 >As for walking a yard to look into this... Don, you must be one
 >of the few researchers Erroll didn't introduce me to during the
 >Roswell '97 festival. I guess it was too far to walk.

No... too bloody expensive to get there and not enough time.
Don't forget I'm 900 miles further to the east, and the Great
Lakes get in the way. Makes it tough to travel in straight
lines, even in my plane.

 ><snip>

 >>I'll set you a problem Mike. Prove to me that the United States
 >>landed men on the moon. Don't get me wrong. I'm not one of those
 >>conspiratists who believe the Capricorn One scenario. I believe
 >>the United States did land men on the moon in the late 60s and
 >>early 70s. But I can't prove it. The is no provable physical
 >>evidence that they did.(Have you ever actually seen a
 >>moonrock, touched it, smelled it, tasted its moon-flavored
 >>goodness?)

 >Actually, I have seen a moon rock on display. Or what I was told
 >was a moon rock, I didn't follow it on the trip here. Touch it,
 >smell it, taste it? No.

 >Moon rocks are kept in fairly airtight containers, scientists
 >who get to handle it usually work clean-room conditions.

 >On the other hand, when was the last time you eye-balled an
 >atom. So how do you know atoms exist?

Yeah, but if you think about it, everything you would say to
prove it could apply to the UFO question. Photos, video,
anecdotal evidence, really reliable witnesses, even the rocks.
To me they are just rocks... you seen one... Some geologist
swears they are moon rocks but, maybe he's just crazy. Now if I
was livimg on the Moon and a Lunar Module landed on my front
lawn, then I have the proof of my own eyes. Of course my next
door Moon neighbour would likely think I was nuts.

 >>BTW Mike, I'm one of those ordinary, fantasizing, nutcases you
 >>were talking about. I'm a pilot, a writer and a technologist,
 >>and a producer of sorts - in television. I'm married with three
 >>children each of whom have children of their own - 7
 >>grandchildren in all. I drive fly and exist. I pay taxes,
 >>overspend my credit card like a good little consumer, reason
 >>things out and once had the wind knocked out of my sails when I
 >>saw a UFO. Up 'til then this was a very interesting phenomenon.

 >>Now it's personal.

 >Yes, Don, very personal. I can admire two attributes of yours,
 >the pilot's license and the fact that you're published, author
 >of 'The Maritime UFO Files', if I'm not mistaken.We'll be
 >charitable and blame the originality of the title on the
 >publisher.  I'll remind you what Heinlein said, "Writing is
 >nothing to be ashamed of. Just do it in private and wash your
 >hands afterward."

Actually that's something like it. I wanted to call it the
Maritime UFO Stuff, but they changed it. Publishers. actually
I'm up to three now, so I'll be washing my hands a lot.

 >I'm not sure what the hell a technologist is, does that mean you
 >use an electric can opener or something...

Hey, right on. I don't know what it means either.

 >and you're a producer
 >of sorts... in television. Well, yes, correct me if I'm wrong
 >but don't you work for the Nova Scotia government channel or
 >something?

No they work for me. And I'm not sure what I am there either. I
know what I do but when you get the gov. involved they like to
change things. My talent are 52 members of the House over which
I have no control. The ball kicking goes the other way rather
than me having the whip hand. I guess you would-in the real
world-call me a director/producer but the NS gov. pays a
director [one rank below a dep.min.] more than they are prepared
to pay me. So I'm called a Coordinator???

 >Unlike myself, you didn't list your affiliation. (By the way,
 >conspiracy/government cover-up types, relax. Nova Scotia is
 >arguably Canada's prettiest province. Not the biggest shaker on
 >the national stage. The only secrets it would be covering up,
 >other than Shag Harbor (see Don for details) would be the
 >provincial incest rate.)

Incidentally that's Harbour with a U, however I see the edited
manuscript sent back to me has managed to change every one of
them to your American spelling.

 >Other than that, I do look forward to meeting you face to face
 >at the next UFO conference here in Ontario... or maybe I'll
 >travel a couple yards for the next big UFO gathering in Nova
 >Scotia.

Well now Ontario is a bit closer, and managable. Let me know
when a big one comes up, conference I mean. As for us having one
down here, all you will need is a 24 of Moosehead Dry and bag of
Cheesies. We'll supply the motel room.Either way we will meet.
EBK can moderate.

Best,

Don Ledger






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                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:13:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:29:46 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


Just a couple of comments to add to the mix:

 >Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 23:15:40 -0300
 >From: dledger@ns.sympatico.ca (Donald . Ledger)
 >Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 16:46:37 -0500
 >>From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >>Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Dear Mr. Ledger, Serge, and the rest of the List, too.

 >Dear Mr.Wood,

 >Since we are being so formal [BTW any relation to the trumpet
 >player of great arranging skills?]

<snip>

 >>Yes, in the real world of working journalists, spending a week
 >>on a story is a significant investment of time.
 >
 >>When I was a radio reporter, I would frequently file five
 >>unrelated stories a day!
 >
 >Yeah that's accepted. But how about something on the side. I
 >know... a feature. Seriously since you've told me - which I
 >didn't know - that you are In the Life as the hookers like to
 >say, you are likely to have a whole lot of background info
 >anyway so you know that not all of this UFO thing is crap. The
 >15 or 20 percent or perhaps more that taints the rest of it. So
 >why the general attack?

When you're tracking down the hard news stories that primarily
make up most radio news programs, often working on several at
one time, there's little time for "something on the side".  This
is not true for documentary type presentations, but that narrows
the scope quite a bit, and often that is defined by the
editorial staff (i.e. owners and management) rather than the
person "on-the-air" (or in some cases their writers).

Let's keep in mind that a major incident would indeed by
investigated (at least to some degree) but depending on the
issue the statements of "officials" would be about as far as
that investigation goes.  And, unless there is an "official"
retraction or clarification of their position at a later time,
then there is rarely any kind of follow-up by the news media to
hard news stories that have grown cold through time.  This is
why the initial statements by the military, which later turn out
to be (being kind here) inaccurate, are rarely corrected by the
media.  With current news stories far more important to the
general public, there is little reason to go back and correct
earlier reports.  Again, this would not be true if the military
were to make a big deal about their change in position (or
clarification), but that is rarely likely to happen.

IMO, radio news tends to react to the world, rather than study
it in detail and provide analysis of inconsistancies.

 >>A journalist working on one story can contact literally hundreds
 >>of people in week in regards to that story... and if he or she
 >>is contacting hundreds of people in the UFO community, they will
 >>hit a higher than average number of people who will tell them
 >>with complete sincerity that they get coded messages beamed into
 >>their fillings from Zeta Reticulae.

 >>That gets tiresome after awhile.
 >
 >Yeah, but how often does that happen. I've been at this for
 >about 7 years now and sniffing around for another 30, and I've
 >yet to run into more than a few that are "off the wall".

Don, you've led a sheltered existence in this genre. . . . . <g>

I have to agree with Mike, in that I find that a number of people with
strong convictions that I believe to be unproven (and in many cases
"crazy") tend to frequent UFO gathering.  Perhaps I hang with the wrong
crowd at times, but very often I find the room filled with "believers" who
are rarely discriminating in their acceptance of information as proof.

Steve








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                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 09:31:44 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 14:01:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 21:43:26 -0400
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 13:54:03 -0800
 >>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Stewart Vs. Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >As previously noted I have no intention of playing in your
 >sandbox Ed. Waste your time on somebody else.

 >Stan Friedman

This has been Stanton T. Friedman's trademark on this mailing
list since 1996. Buzz words and sound bytes only work on TV and
radio, not in this medium. Once again, when backed into a corner
nuclear physicist ducks all the legitimate questions asked such
as:

 >>What does "two archivists" mean? Who were they? What were their
 >>names? When and under what circumstances you spoke to these
 >>persistently unidentified archivists? Are you afraid that when I
 >>or someone else follows up on  this alleged claim of yours, it
 >>will not be supportable in the context you present by these two
 >>alleged archivists?

No legitimate response from nuclear physicist Stanton T.
Friedman claiming he will not "play". Is that why you ducked
debating skeptics on your Australian tour? And after you came
back? Apparently, you will only debate "uninformed" debunkers on
national TV where there is only time for buzz words and sound
bytes. You can dazzle some of the people with your buzz words
(the last three decades is proof of that), but you can't stand
up to informed debaters that know what they are talking about.

 >>What does "certain documents" mean? What were they? Are they
 >>from the archives? If so, what is their location and
 >>identification so anyone can follow your alleged footsteps, find
 >>them, and determine if their context is even applicable to a
 >>discussion of Top Secret documents under the control of the
 >>executive branch of government and more specifically, the
 >>military establishment? And what relevance to these "certain
 >>documents" have to the context of the original statements
 >>regarding Top Secret documents under the control of the
 >>Department of Defense and its subsidiary agencies, i.e. US Army?
 >>Why have you persistently dodged identifying these alleged
 >>documents after repeated requests? Are you afraid that when I or
 >>someone else follows up on this undetermined claim of yours, it
 >>will be shown these alleged documents do not support the context
 >>you allege "these documents" represent?

Again, no legitimate response from nuclear physicist Stanton T.
Friedman claiming he will not "play". But I predict it won't
stop him from enunciating these undetermined platitudes about
alleged certain documents and alleged certain archivists that he
claims support his positions in defense of his previously
unsupported positions on MJ-12, security classifications and
classified documents. Very strange! In the future when asked
again, I predict Stanton T. Friedman's typical response will be
a sales pitch pointing to his autographed writings. The same
writings that have been torned apart over and over by informed
researchers both within ufology and outside.

If anybody is interested, I posted an index to the MJ-12
literature (currently in the archives of this mailing list) as
published in IUR, Mufon Journal, UFO Magazine and CAUS Bulletin
(Barry Greenwood, editor). Take a good look at the evidence
presented in those respected UFO community publications, not the
alleged "uninformed" debunker literature. And see what is
addressed in Stanton T. Friedman's book which he will gladly
sell an autographed copy. Hardly any of the damning evidence
presented by informed UFO researchers is acknowledged in his
book, even though most of it has been in the public domain for
over a decade.

 >I don't know any such thing. You have never identified the
 >archivists. You have never identified the alleged documents you
 >allege the archivists' comments relate to. You have never
 >revealed the entire corresponcence/meeting as to time, date and
 >location so anyone can determine whether or not it is even
 >relevant?  What are you afraid of? That the same thing will
 >occur as when I followed up on your previous source Dr. Pankratz
 >(sp?)? Turns out his statements in context supported that
 >serialized control numbers were being  used in that era and
 >actually were not supportive of your claims. But that is not
 >unexpected. As I have previously documented on this list, the
 >control procedures for Top Secret documents in the jurisdiction
 >of the Executive Branch have been established by law. It is not
 >a notion of Ed Stewart as Stanton Friedman alleges. It is the
 >law of the land and has been the law of the land as the history
 >of executive orders demonstrates!

 >Unidentified archivists? Certain documents? Is that the best
 >that researcher extraordinaire and nuclear physicist Stanton T.
 >Friedman, the man that wants to be Sam Sherman's partner on a
 >national TV debate can do?

Apparently, it is the best that Stanton T. Friedman will do.
Again, no legitimate response from him.

 >Relevant previous messages/links from a year ago:

 >>>http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m04-017.shtml
 >>>http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m03-005.shtml
 >>>http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m07-012.shtml

"I had a Q." --- Stanton T. Friedman."

No letimate response to the lie he has been passively
perpetrating on the UFO community for decades, no response
whether it was ever removed from his book's last printing or not
and no acknowledgement that he understood the analogy presented
which shows the imbecility of his statements regarding security
clearances. I predict we will see nuclear physicist Stanton T.
Friedman on national television playing Bingo.

  "I had a Q." --- Stanton T. Friedman.

Not relevant to Bingo, as it is also not relevant to an
understanding of security classifications, markings and control
procedures as determined by law.

Ed "sandbox" Stewart
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
    Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
---------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------







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   Feb > Feb 7

                        [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos

From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 23:22:06 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 14:10:40 -0500
Subject: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos


I just put up a web page on a very interesting image of Phobos
from the Mars Global Surveyor. It really is a monolith. Whether
or not it's artificial remains to be seen, but it is a very
large structure on a very small moon.

The URL is:

http://www.vgl.org/webfiles/mars/phobos/phobos.htm

Fran might be interested in this, because it's very similar to
the "Blair Cuspids" on the moon - our moon - and he had a lot to
do with digging up the information on those Lunar Orbiter images
a couple years ago. This thing on Phobos is a lot larger than
any of the Cuspids, though.



----------------------------------------------------------------

THE LUNASCAN PROJECT (TLP): An Earth-Based Telescopic Imaging (EBTI)
program using live and recorded CCD technology to document and record
Lunar Transient Phenomena (TLPs).

The Lunascan Project HomePage
http://www.evansville.net/~slk/lshomepage.html

The Project's Mission Statement :
http://www.evansville.net/~slk/miss.html








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                Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 15:46:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 17:38:21 -0500
Subject: Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes


 >Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 22:30:08 -0500
 >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@temporaldoorway.com>
 >Subject: Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 10:42:34 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Subject: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>You need to find what Mark Cashman, in many posts here,
 >>>has called "discriminators" -- things that would be true if
 >>>abduction imagery was derived by science fiction, and would
 >>>_not_ be true if it was derived from real encounters with
 >>>aliens.

 >>What would be an example of such a discriminator?

 >>>And, no, you can't first ask for proof that the aliens are
 >>>real.

 >Hi, Bob!

 >Information about the normal scientific process as applied to
 >UFOs can be found at

 >http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/methodology/whatkindofscience.htm

Hi Mark, hi Bob, hi All,

I'd just like to try to 'tie in' this conversation to the
original subject of this thread which is Randle & Estes'
outrageous claim that "60% of Abductees Are Gay." They claim to
have arrived at those figures by conducting some kind of
"abductee" survey/poll which no one seems to be questioning.

The 'silence' from the Randle/Estes camp has been deafening! I
have asked repeatedly for information regarding 'how' this
"poll" was conducted, what _criteria_ was used to either include
or exclude a respondant, and then to find out _how_many_ alleged
"abductees" they polled. (The whole thing is a circular joke.
How do you 'poll' something you are claiming doesn't exist! -
UFO abduction victims -)

No response from Randle or his 'tag team' partner Russ Estes on
these all-important questions.

The fact that the statistic has been 'put out to the public'
without equal disclosure provided for the 'methods' used to
arrive at it, is an outrage and just plain sloppy (amateurish)
science. I like Stan Friedman's little 'tagger' "Science by
decree!" That's exactly what Randle and Estes are doing by
putting out a stat like that with no background info on how it
was arrived at.

No one else seems to be questioning it either. This thread has
moved on to another whole topic. Randle's stat stands
unquestioned, forgotten, ancrowdd unexplained. Where the hell
are all the 'scientists' that are always placing demands
for empirical proof (granted they are valid, but _that knife_
should cut both ways!) on UFO witnesses. Why aren't you up in
arms when it is a Ph.D that is attempting to pass off
'speculative anecdotes' as if it were proven fact?

I'm not a 'pollster' or a 'statistician' so I'm not terribly
familiar with the criteria used to determine the statistical
validity/relevance of any given poll.

Mark, Bob, anyone...?

What kind of "discriminators" need to be applied to a
poll/survey in order to determine it's validity? How many
respondants would be considered _statistically_significant_?
What criteria would you need to use to determine if the
respondants should be included in a survey of "abductees"?

Tough questions eh? I'm asking you guys because Randle/Estes
haven't responded to simply explain their statistic and how they
arrived at it.

Between you and me and the walls, I blame their collective
silence on the fact that in the end, I don't think they will
be able to justify their outlandish statistic.

This is an interesting thread gentlemen (discussing
discriminators) but please don't forget the original topic of
the thread. Stats like the one above _need_ to be questioned.
The Nazi's counted on the fact that no one would challenge or
question their 'stats' regarding race and human anthropology. We
all know where that ended up. No, I don't think there will an
'abductee holocaust' because Randle & Estes call the majority of
them Gay, but tell me then, what 'eventually' happens to the
number and credibility of the abductees and witnesses that come
forward to report when guys like Randle/Estes can publish
unsubstantiated/unproven "facts" like the one we are discussing
without any fear of having 'it' or their methods questioned by
anyone.

Anybody want to field this?

John Velez,
- Tired of having important issues swept under the rug. -







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               NZ Scientists Present Theory On Ball Lightning

From: Steven L. Wilson, Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 17:29:39 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 18:01:04 -0500
Subject: NZ Scientists Present Theory On Ball Lightning


NZ Scientists Present Theory On Ball Lightning

LONDON, Feb 3 (Reuters) - One of nature's strangest phenomena,
ball lightning, may have been explained by two New Zealand
scientists whose theory was published on Thursday in an
international science journal.

University of Christchurch scientists John Abrahamson and James
Dinniss believe the bright, hovering spheres first recorded in
the Middle Ages are fluffy balls of burning silicon created by
ordinary fork lightning striking the earth.

``Most ball lightning is seen outside in thunderstorms, so we
start with a normal lightning strike on soil,'' Abrahamson told
BBC radio.

``If you look at what the lightning does to the soil, it
penetrates underneath the surface of the soil and we suggest the
heating of the soil...brings about a hot vapour which then,
after the lightning has gone, erupts above the ground in just
the same manner as you blow air through your lips to get a
smokers' puff,'' he said.

Around one in 100 people claim to have seen ball lightning, but
scientists have never been able to come up with a satisfactory
explanation for it.

It is typically described as having a diameter somewhere between
a golf ball and a beach ball and lasting for around 15 seconds,
floating in the air not far from the ground.

Ball lightning can be any colour, but is normally white or
yellowish, with an intensity roughly equivalent to a 100 watt
light bulb.

In their article in Nature magazine, Abrahamson and Dinniss
suggest that the extreme heat generated at the point where
lightning strikes can sometimes turn the silica-carbon mixture
contained in soil into silicon and silicon compounds with oxygen
and carbon. The process is similar to the techniques used in
industry to extract pure silicon from sand.

The silicon forms tiny ``nanoparticles'' which link together
into chains which are lifted above the ground by air currents,
Abrahamson and Dinniss wrote.

The particles then burn slowly, giving off heat and light.

The scientists have not yet been able prove their theory by
recreating ball lightning in the laboratory, but believe it
explains all the commonly observed features of the phenomenon.

07:20 02-03-00

Copyright 2000 Reuters Limited.  All rights reserved.
Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by
framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the
prior written consent of Reuters.  Reuters shall not be liable
for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions
taken in reliance thereon.  All active hyperlinks have been
inserted by AOL.


Researcher Steven L. Wilson, Sr
Ndunlks@aol.com







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                       Re: Bennewitz's Report To APRO

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 17:54:01 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 18:05:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Bennewitz's Report To APRO


 >Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 21:21:52 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Bennewitz's Report To APRO
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 01:17:27 +0100
 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>Subject: Bennewitz's Report To APRO
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:57:00 -0700
 >>>From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@pobox.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Hi Roger,

 >>I want to ask you and the list a question unrelated to the last
 >>thread. I followed the Linda Howe, Agent Richard Doty, Dulce
 >>Canyon, Christa Tilton, New Mexico State Police, sightings by
 >>USAF Air Police within Manzano Canyon, and of course, Paul
 >>Bennewitz for many years. I don't think I remember seeing
 >>Bennewitz's report to APRO. Have you, Roger? I'd like to see
 >>that.

 ><snip>

 >>What did Paul Bennewitz put in his APRO report?

 >I don't recall anybody responding to this.  Do we have copies of
 >anything Bennewitz put in his report?  I too have been curious
 >for years.

 >Cheers,
 >Robert


Stop me if I am wrong, but William Moore, the man who confessed
having helped to disinform Bennewitz on orders of AFOSI, also
confessed to having spied on APRO. And he had access to their
files, being member of the board. No wonder if some documents
disappeared there. Cheers

Gildas Bourdais









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                      Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:26:51 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 22:09:13 -0500
Subject: Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos


 >Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 23:22:06 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@aol.com>
 >Subject: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos
 >To: lunascan@listbox.com

 >I just put up a web page on a very interesting image of Phobos
 >from the Mars Global Surveyor. It really is a monolith. Whether
 >or not it's artificial remains to be seen, but it is a very
 >large structure on a very small moon.

 >The URL is:

 >http://www.vgl.org/webfiles/mars/phobos/phobos.htm

<snip>

Hi guys.

I just checked out the MGS images and the calculations Lan did.
If the assumptions he made are correct, then there is something
of foreign origin on the surface of Phobos.  The surface
brightness of the monolith, when compared to the inside of the
sunlit craters for the same sun angle, is much brighter.  This
further supports the foreign origin of this object.

Although much smaller vertical stone monoliths on Earth have
been placed there by natural forces, it is still possible that
taller ones could be found on worlds with much less gravity.
This monolith may turn out to be nothing more than a natural
satellite of Phobos (there are at least two confirmed cases of
satellites orbiting larger asteroids) that eventually bumped
into Phobos and remained on the surface.  If the object is
really a tall and narrow monolith, there is no disturbance to
the surrounding area to suggest that it impacted into Phobos
with great force.

This monolith reminds me of the picture of a similarly large
object in space near Phobos that was finally released at a press
conference by the Russians months after their Phobos 2
spaceprobe mysteriously stopped taking pictures back in 1989.  I
understand that this picture was the last image that Phobos 2
took.  Could the Phobos 2 image of the 1989 object in space (I
think it likely was just data dropout) and the MGS image of the
monolith be the same?

Nick Balaskas










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   Feb > Feb 7

                Re: A Film - New Findings and Roswell Linkage

From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 02:57:46 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 22:16:33 -0500
Subject: Re: A Film - New Findings and Roswell Linkage


 >From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:43:23 +0000
 >To:  updates@sympatico.ca
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:23:49 -0500

 >Subject: A Film - New Findings and Roswell Linkage -

 >All,
 >My appologies to list memebers who have attempted to access the
 >web address I gave below. Due to a typo on my part directly
 >accessing this address has been returning error404's over the
 >ast 12 hrs. I have now corrected the problem and it is
 >available. Those accessing the page via the sites own links
 >should have had no probs.
 >Sorry to all who called in and found the door locked
 ><g>.
 >http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/new-1/aalink/index.htmIs
 >now open..

 >Neil.


Neil & List:

Note that you have "decided" that the beam inscriptions should
be read in this position - and not turned around 180 degrees -
i.e., from the upside down view!

I viewed it from upside down, and I found out that this was
easier to look at, and I also tried to concentrate more on the
lighter contrasts.

You have also "decided" that the inscriptions should be
interpreted by viewing the dark (coloured?) parts of it - and
not the light (coloured?), contrasted parts.

Then there migt be different interpretetions due to this.

Regards,

Asgeir










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   Feb > Feb 7

               Federal Judge Reserves Decision On UFO Group'S

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 23:10:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 23:10:43 -0500
Subject: Federal Judge Reserves Decision On UFO Group'S





Source: http://www.paranormalnews.com/

P3N: PRESS RELEASE: February 7, 2000

Federal Judge Reserves Decision On UFO Group'S Request

In a precedent setting hearing today, a federal judge has
decided to consider a UFO group's claims that the government
failed to conduct an adequate search for information about a
very unusual aerial object.

In the Phoenix, Arizona federal lawsuit, Citizens Against UFO
Secrecy (CAUS) vs. the Department of Defense, Chief Judge
Stephen M. McNamee, once again ignored the government's plea to
dismiss the case, and instead took under advisement the group's
claims that the government was guilty of bad faith in its search
for information about a very unusual triangular aerial object.

Though CAUS, which had brought the lawsuit under the Freedom of
Information Act in 1999, submitted numerous affidavits from
witnesses who had observed the aerial object, the Department of
Defense continued to maintain in Court, that it could find no
information confirming the existence of this object.

During the 30 minute hearing before a standing-room-only
audience of UFO enthusiasts, Peter A. Gersten, attorney for the
UFO activist organization, Citizens Against UFO Secrecy (CAUS)
argued that the government's search lacked the necessary element
of "good faith." He claimed that the Department of Defense's
mishandling of the initial request raised an "inference of
indifference" on the agency's part and tainted any subsequent
search.

Gersten, holding up a Department of Defense form which initially
indicated that documents had been found, only to be later
changed to "Not Found," argued that the form was more than mere
sloppiness on the government's part, it was evidence of bad
faith and even possibly a "signal" from agency insiders in favor
of disclosure, that documents were located.

With the Judge's tacit approval, Gersten berated the Defense
Department for failing to provide his client with the specifics
of its search and in a surprise move, Gersten asked the Judge to
reserve decision on the government's motion to dismiss for
ninety days in order to allow his client to "assist the
Department of Defense in locating its own documents" by
permitting CAUS to conduct limited discovery procedures
including depositions and interrogatories of both military and
civilian personnel.

Judge McNamee, who appeared receptive to Gersten's arguments,
stated that he would take the CAUS request under advisement and
issue a written opinion shortly.

� Copyright 2000 ParaNorml News Network. P3N is a registered
servicemark of the ParaNorml
News Network. All Rights Reserved.








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   Feb > Feb 8

                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 22:24:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 07:44:17 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


 >Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 16:46:37 -0500
 >From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

Dear Michael,

<snip>

 >And Serge, I didn't want you to feel left out:

Thanks for allowing me the privilege of this exchange <blush>.

<snip>

 >>You seem to be the one who is day dreaming here: you fantasize
 >>on objective media coverage.

 >>An oxymoron.

 >>Just turn on the TV set.

 >I've seen what passes for journalism, broadcast and print in
 >Quebec. I understand your disdain. The sheer lies which pass for
 >journalism in Quebec is only exceed by the lies of its
 >politicians.

Whoa, wha? Well. To be frank with you, aside from residing in
Quebec, I am a black jewish gay transexual (and having my period
right now).

Feel free to select your favorite basis of analysis for your
perception of reality. Take your pick as to what can account
from _my_ twisted view of journalism.

I also own a PhD (from Mortellaro's Institute of Tautology).

I also know how to read. I have electricity and the TV. My
computer is powered by a generator mounted on a bicycle. Please
excuse the jumpy ride.

But I have the Internet, which saves me from terminal cretinism
(or does it?).

Anyway, my favorite information show is Frontline on PBS.

I went to:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/press/index.html

titled: 'Why America Hates The Press'

... and casually hit the 'Venality and Vanities' button or,
better, 'The Interviews' button where "Eight journalists discuss
wealth, celebrity, and the corruption of journalism."

Ah... will you have the courage?... Read the interviews of David
Broder, Ellen Goodman, Geneva Overholser, all Pulitzer winners.
Even Bob Woodward in there ("All the President's Men"), Pulitzer
winner also.

Do you know your classics?

My favorite on this site: "James Fallow became editor of U.S.
News and World Report in September 1996. His recent book,
'Breaking the News: How the Media Undermine American
Democracy,'"

 >So there, pfffft!!!

Your vacuum B.S. detector hose seem to be stuck somewhere.

I suggest you write to the 8 interviewed characters who are,
without a doubt, sorry asses prone to fantasize on manipulative
and manipulated media.

Send them some email. You have the Internet don't you, which
should save you from terminal cretinism (or should it?).

I will return to my little self now, and put my foot in my mouth.

Gagrgle GArgle Garrgllel (the French version of the English
"Gagrgle GArgle Garrgllel").

Enjoy,

Serge Salvaille









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   Feb > Feb 8

                      Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos

From: GT McCoy  <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 20:38:33 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 07:51:54 -0500
Subject: Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos


 >Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:26:51 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >Subject: Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Hello, all.

 >>Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 23:22:06 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@aol.com>
 >>Subject: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos
 >>To: lunascan@listbox.com

 >>I just put up a web page on a very interesting image of Phobos
 >>from the Mars Global Surveyor. It really is a monolith. Whether
 >>or not it's artificial remains to be seen, but it is a very
 >>large structure on a very small moon.

 >>The URL is:

 >>http://www.vgl.org/webfiles/mars/phobos/phobos.htm

 ><snip>

 >Hi guys.

 >I just checked out the MGS images and the calculations Lan did.
 >If the assumptions he made are correct, then there is something
 >of foreign origin on the surface of Phobos.  The surface
 >brightness of the monolith, when compared to the inside of the
 >sunlit craters for the same sun angle, is much brighter.  This
 >further supports the foreign origin of this object.

 >Although much smaller vertical stone monoliths on Earth have
 >been placed there by natural forces, it is still possible that
 >taller ones could be found on worlds with much less gravity.
 >This monolith may turn out to be nothing more than a natural
 >satellite of Phobos (there are at least two confirmed cases of
 >satellites orbiting larger asteroids) that eventually bumped
 >into Phobos and remained on the surface.  If the object is
 >really a tall and narrow monolith, there is no disturbance to
 >the surrounding area to suggest that it impacted into Phobos
 >with great force.

 >This monolith reminds me of the picture of a similarly large
 >object in space near Phobos that was finally released at a press
 >conference by the Russians months after their Phobos 2
 >spaceprobe mysteriously stopped taking pictures back in 1989.  I
 >understand that this picture was the last image that Phobos 2
 >took.  Could the Phobos 2 image of the 1989 object in space (I
 >think it likely was just data dropout) and the MGS image of the
 >monolith be the same?

 >Nick Balaskas

Gee, a truly anomalous anomaly, we may get to  see it close up
in say, 200 years or so? Maybe later at the rate we seem to be
not exploring Mars. Arrrgh!

I think avarice and stupidity have a lot to do with the reason
we're (as a planetary race) not off this rock in meaningful
numbers.

GT McCoy

Sorry to say can't sign it "Have Spacesuit will travel."

-Heinlien I beleive.








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   Feb > Feb 8

                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Murray Bott <murrayb@win.co.nz>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 18:49:10 +1300 (NZDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 07:56:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


Greetings List

For Stanton Friedman

Stan you criticised me for not quoting "your" work when I raised
some questions to you (on the list) about MJ12

Now you fail to quote the name of your own source (the
archivists) when requested. This seems to me that you are
operating double standards here.

You have attempted to be-little me and others when claiming the
number of Archives you have visited. The rhetoric which you seem
to engage in has failed to impress me or validate your work.

If you have received such statements from these Archivists then
quote their names as I am another who cannot take your claim (or
many other claims of yours) too seriously.

I respectfully suggest thet you put up the names of your sources
to this list or simply stop posting such "unsupported" claims.


Regards,

Murray

Email : murrayb@win.co.nz
Voice : 64-9-6345285
Snail : PO Box 27117, Mt Roskill, Auckland 1030, New Zealand








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                Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes

From: Stephen Miles Lewis <elfis@austin.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 00:41:16 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 08:10:59 -0500
Subject: Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes


 >Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 15:46:03 -0500
 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >Subject: Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 22:30:08 -0500
 >>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@temporaldoorway.com>
 >>Subject: Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 10:42:34 -0500 (EST)
 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Subject: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Howdy John, Mark, Bob & all...

<snip>

 >Hi Mark, hi Bob, hi All,

 >I'd just like to try to 'tie in' this conversation to the
 >original subject of this thread which is Randle & Estes'
 >outrageous claim that "60% of Abductees Are Gay." They claim to
 >have arrived at those figures by conducting some kind of
 >"abductee" survey/poll which no one seems to be questioning.

Information on the "survey" is available in their book _The
Abduction Enigma_ by Kevin D. Randle, Russ Estes, and William P.
Cone, Ph.D.

We know from your past posts that you do not have a copy.
Therefore I have taken it upon myself to take up my copy, which
I have not read until now, and cursorily examine it for relevant
information.

     ...from the index:
B
     Bisexuality, 100. See also Sexual identity problems

C
     Childhood sexual abuse, 290

G
     Gay women, 292

H
     Homosexuality, 100-1, 292

S
     Sexual activities, 8, 91-101
     Sexual dysfunction, 101
     Sexual identity problems, 244, 290, 292
     Sexual repression, 301

V
     Velez, John, 57
[not relevant to topic but a pleasant referance]

... relevant quotes below....

 >The 'silence' from the Randle/Estes camp has been deafening! I
 >have asked repeatedly for information regarding 'how' this
 >"poll" was conducted, what _criteria_ was used to either include
 >or exclude a respondant, and then to find out _how_many_ alleged
 >"abductees" they polled. (The whole thing is a circular joke.
 >How do you 'poll' something you are claiming doesn't exist! -
 >UFO abduction victims -)

 >No response from Randle or his 'tag team' partner Russ Estes on
 >these all-important questions.

 >The fact that the statistic has been 'put out to the public'
 >without equal disclosure provided for the 'methods' used to
 >arrive at it, is an outrage and just plain sloppy (amateurish)
 >science. I like Stan Friedman's little 'tagger' "Science by
 >decree!" That's exactly what Randle and Estes are doing by
 >putting out a stat like that with no background info on how it
 >was arrived at.

To address the specifics of how Randle, Estes & Cone handled
their study:


p. 91 - Chapter 5 - The Sexual Component of Alien Abduction

"In the process of interviewing over a hundred people who claim
to be abductees, it has become painfully clear that sexuality is
a major part of abduction. A vast majority of the abductees felt
that the experience went well beyond reproductive curiosity and
smack dab into lusty sex.


p. 98 - same chapter

In setting up our protocols for the interview process, we added
questions on blatant sexuality, such as, 'Was there any physical
contact? Was there actual penetration? How has this affected
your earthbound sex life? What was the gender of the alien
beings? How has this experience affected your ability to
maintain relationships? What do you remember about your family
life as you were growing up?'

With few exceptions nearly all of the people interviewed claimed
to be from dysfunctional families. The majority claimed that
human relationships were very difficult for them and that their
sex life was impaired in some way due to the alien contact.
Another interesting point is that nearly all of the people we
interviewed claimed that they were either sexually penetrated or
forced to sexually penetrate an alien creature. Women reported
intense orgasms with the aliens. Some even claimed that they
could no longer achieve orgasm with a human partner.

The men had totally the opposite reaction to alien sex. Most of
them reported that a female alien mounted them. They couldn't
understand how they achieved an erection under the stressful
circumstances, but they did. All of them reported that the sex
was completed but without the pleasant sensations of orgasm.


p. 99 - same chapter

A very interesting fact about the interviews we conducted is
that when the people were asked if it would be all right to talk
about the personal and sexual aspects of their abductions, each
and every one of them said yes.

On one occasion we were interviewing a male abductee on camera.
Also present were about eight other members of an abduction
support group and the abduction researcher/hypnotherapist. The
gentleman that we were interviewing was so open about his sexual
preferance, homosexuality, that the researcher who had been
working with him for over two years was shocked. She was hearing
things about his sexuality and sexual orientation of which she
had no knowledge.


p. 100 - same chapter

Nearly every person that we interviewed was a long-term abductee
who had been interviewed many times by many different people. We
were told that the only interest other researchers had in the
sexual aspect of abduction was in reproductive experiments. If
any of the other researchers would have walked that highly
personal path they might have found that a higher than average
number of abductees were either homosexual, hypersexual, or
asexual.

A very high percentage of both the male and female abductees
that we interviewed openly stated a sexual preferance of
homosexuality or bisexuality. An equally high number were
hypersexual and highly promiscuous in their human sex lives. Of
the remaining abductees at least half of them claimed that they
had no sex drive whatsoever. That leaves us with a low number of
abductees who claim to have what would be considered a normal
sex life. Of course, defining normal in any society would be a
tough call.

None of the people who we interviewed said that the alien
abduction had any affect on their sexual preferance. All of the
poeple who were interviewed said that it did have an impact on
their ability, or their inability, to nurture human
relationships.


p. 292 - Chapter 19 - Recovered Memories

Biochemical factors that contribute to sexual identity could
also be a factor in identity confusion and confabulation. This
is supported by Shaeffer's observation that gay women are
overrepresented in the MPD population. It has also been noted by
a number of researchers that gay men and women are
over-whelmingly represented in the abduction population. One
estimate suggests that as many as 60 percent of those claiming
abduction are also gay.

<snip>

 >Anybody want to field this?

 >John Velez,
 >- Tired of having important issues swept under the rug. -

The previous post is not meant as endorsement of the findings
nor the methods. However I think this is yet another valuable
area for dialogue on the under-explored subject of ...

Abductee Demographics (see also):

--Ethnicity (Fewer "non-whites"? Why?)
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/dec/m03-018.shtml
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/dec/m15-004.shtml

--Greg Sandow's comment as to looking into the above:
(re: Budd Hopkin's data on ethnicity versus the Roper Poll's
  data)
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/dec/m04-008.shtml
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/dec/m06-013.shtml
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/dec/m16-003.shtml

--Mark Cashman's comments on the above:
(re: Cautionary of Geographic Entity Description Differences)
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/dec/m16-024.shtml

--John Rimmer of Magonia's comments on the above:
(re: BUROFA data?)
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/dec/m05-009.shtml

--Abductee Demographics: (re: Sightedness)
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/dec/m18-013.shtml

SMiles









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                          Re: News Briefing 2.8.00

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 00:27:10 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 08:15:08 -0500
Subject: Re: News Briefing 2.8.00


TMP NEWS
The E-News Service of The Millennium Project

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

February 8, 2000

_____________________________



NEWS BRIEFING
2.8.00



QUANTA - Science and Technology


MAJOR NEW SOLAR FLARES ON SUN
With the current sunspot cycle expected to peak in mid-2000,
major solar flare activity is also increasing...
http://www.earthchangesTV.com/breaking/February2000/02607nasa.htm

NZ SCIENTISTS PRESENT THEORY ON BALL LIGHTNING
Theory proposes "balls of burning silicone" created by fork
lightning...
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/balllightning.html



EXOTICA - Unexplained Phenomena and Forteana


P3N PRESS RELEASE: FEDERAL JUDGE RESERVES DECISION ON UFO
GROUP'S REQUEST Judge will consider claims of CAUS in its case
against the Department of Defense...
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/judge.html

THE 'MONOLITH' OF PHOBOS
Images from the Mars Global Surveyor probe show an interesting
large object on the surface of this tiny moon...
http://www.vgl.org/webfiles/mars/phobos/phobos.htm

_____________________________


TMP News is the electronic news service of The Millennium
Project, providing daily news briefings of the latest relevant
news stories and reports, as well as information and updates on
TMP-related news and events. TMP News is edited by Paul Anderson
and published by TMP, and is available free by subscription; to
be added to or removed from the mailing list, send your request,
including "subscribe TMP News" or "unsubscribe TMP News" and
e-mail address to:

psa@direct.ca

For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all
correspondence to:

THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC   V6J 1J4   Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

_____________________________


� The Millennium Project, 2000











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   Feb > Feb 8

                           Oz Spy Base - Nurrungar

From: John Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 07:29:57 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 08:20:34 -0500
Subject: Oz Spy Base - Nurrungar



             Oz & ASIA DATA RESEARCH
           Phenomena Research Australia
                    SIGHTINGS

Oz Spy Base NURRUNGAR - Look Inside.

EBK, Researchers,

The following data was sent to us as "General Information -
Acting under instructions from USAF arising from the closure of
5SQS, Space Warning Satellite facility at Nurrungar, Woomera,
South Australia". However, on examination, it turned out to be a
most unusual Web Page. The pages were put on line by a
Government authorised auctioneer "Evans & Clarke Auctions" -
General Auctioneers Australia - the page is called "USAF Mega
Tender".

* Site inspection Feb 8-9, Feb 15-16, Feb 23 2000.
* USAF Tenders Close 17th March 2000.

Generally a defence auction would not raise any notice to most
in the UFO world, but to the interested researcher and UFO buff,
and need I say electronic or technically minded, these pages on
this site are full of interesting information about one of
Australia's long held defence base secrets.

As we first report to list members on EBK's UFO UpDates 12 Oct
1999:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/oct/m12-012.shtml

The Joint Defence Facility spy base "Nurrungar" in South
Australia [s31:22 e137:10] designed to analyse satellite data
was closed on the 12 Oct 99. All Nurrungar spy base tasks were
relocated to Pine Gap.

Nurrungar was a USAF ground station for the US Defence Support
Program (DSP). And controlled a set of Pacific/Asia
geostationary satellites designed to detect and track objects.

Now it's your limited chance to have a very good look into the
inside of the base where 400 Australians and Americans worked.

The Home Page [rather slow] is at:

http://www.evansclarke.com.au/site.htm

INDEX Page [images link at bottom]:

http://www.evansclarke.com.au/megatender/

You will need to navigate over lots of images in 11 areas for
the auction.

This "USAF Mega Tender" includes approx:

17 - Transportable Houses, carports, fencing.
2  - large Radomes with 18m Dia. Satellite dishes.
1  - 3.9 Megawatt diesel Power plant & Switchgear.
4  - Large transportable buildings.
14 - Shed type building structures.
1  - Large office air-conditioning Chillier Plant.
1  - Complete Catering Facility.
1  - Large IBM 4381 Computer System.
1  - Talu Aircraft Loading Unit.
3  - Large Compacts Units.
4  - Large portable cool rooms.

DETAILED LOOK INSIDE THE BASE.

"Evans & Clarke Auctions" have produced a very detailed visual
look at the base. Take a good look at the images, they tell a
lot about the place. Also have a good look at the walls and
local area. I believe you will all be very surprised at the poor
quality of the equipment and the lack of any real plan!

FOR THE RECORD.

As this page will not last that long I have place on this post
data from 4 of the main sections for future reference.

                            ***

[1]. THE RADOME + SAT DISHES.

IMAGES: On the Web = 31 Jpg

VIEW:   Outside & Inside the DOME. A most interesting look at a
HORN Monopulse Feed system, made by Philco-Ford Corp - WOL Div -
Palo Alto, Ca. This one has the parts number 99-199800-01-5.

STS Bravo comprised a 60-foot dish with dual elevation and
azimuth motors for positioning. It was remotely controlled by
computer workstations from inside the SRS work centre, or
locally from a similar workstation. It could also be manually
positioned in emergency situations. Both the large mission
antennas had simultaneous receive/transmit capability, with
extra receiving horns providing auto tracking capability,
interference suppression and scintillation processing to
maximise signal quality.

DISH IMAGES:
http://www.evansclarke.com.au/megatender/usaf_sts/index.htm
SPECIFICATIONS:

                            ***

[2]. THE OLD MAIN FRAME COMPUTER.

IMAGES: On the Web = 31 Jpg

VIEW:   The Data Reduction Centre used the IBM 4381 Computer
System to process and record infrared data detected by satellite
and transmitted by the Satellite Tracking Station (SRS). The raw
Satellite data was relayed through a variety of computers and
electronic equipment and finally to the DRC'c IBM 4381 mainframe
computers. The mainframe computers each had dual processors: a
support processor and an instruction processor. The processors
filtered out any spurious data by comparing the data against pre
programmed event criteria. Data that were not needed were
discarded while data that met certain criteria were formatted
and sent to the SOC for further evaluation, this time by human
beings.

COMPUTER IMAGES:
http://www.evansclarke.com.au/megatender/usaf_ibm_4381/index.htm
SPECIFICATIONS: nil.

                            ***

[3]. THE POWER PLANT.

IMAGES: On the Web = 33 Jpg

VIEW:   The JDFN Power Plant was commissioned on March 5th 1971.
With no commercial power available the power plant was designed
to operate 24 hours a day using five 1947 Nordberg diesel
powered generators. A sixth generator was added in 1989,
providing additional redundancy in power supply and ensuring
continuously stable power for the sixty-one facilities at the
site. Each of these vintage generators was capable of producing
up to 650 Kilowatts, 480 Volts, and 60-Hertz power for a
combined total of 3.9 megawatts of power.

In a 24-hour period, each unit used approximately 3410 litres
(750 gallons) of diesel fuel, or about 3,200,000 litres (700,000
gallons) per year. Each Unit was supported by auxiliary
equipment, such as the dual-stage air compressors used for
starting them. In 1995, electronic switchgear was installed in
the plant. The electrical bus was changed to a dual-bus system,
allowing the separation of critical and utility loads.

The upgrade also integrated programmable logic control, data
acquisitioning, automatic start-up, and synchronization and
governor control. This state-of-the-art technology allowed the
operator one button operation. The data acquisition system,
along with the local control board, recorded and monitored load,
amperage, and system pressures and temperatures.

Although these generators and their associated support equipment
required tender loving care, the plant proved it's reliability
by providing electricity for many years to all JDFN Work centres

POWER PLANT IMAGES:
http://www.evansclarke.com.au/megatender/usaf_power/woomera_plant/index.htm
SPECIFICATIONS:
http://www.evansclarke.com.au/megatender/usaf_power/specifications.htm

                            ***

[4]. THE MAIN TRANSPORT BUILDINGS.

IMAGES: On the Web = 40 Jpg

VIEW:   The following transportable buildings are being offered
for tender as part of the United States Air force Mega Tender.

013  Transportable, IM.
0167 Transportable, IM Class Room.
017  Steel Building, CE Offices.
050  Steel Building, Security Services Office.
051  Steel Building, Base Services Office & Alt SOC.
052  Steel Shed, Sustenance Store.
053  Demountable, CE Main Office.
054  Steel Shed, Sustenance Store.
055  BBQ.
062  Transportable and Garage, Electrical Main Yard.
065  Site Break Area & Ablutions.
1210 Refuse Collection Shed.
1211 Garden Shed.
1212 Garden shed.

View floor plans, available on the "Pic Tutorial Page", to gain
an indication of buildings suitable to your needs. Please note
that any drawings illustrating floor plans etc are not drawn to
scale, and are only to be viewed as approximations.

                            ***

As I said, you will find a lot more, but I think you will find
the data most interesting and a limited view & insight into the
workings of a very old but important defence link.

Get what you need now, this page will not last long!

Enjoy.


Best Regards,

John W. AUCHETTL - Director PRA Research

DR Ron BARNETT   - Deputy Director


WARNING: Spelling Error! The web page spells with a [a]
          as Narrungar it should be Nurrungar with a [u].

Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2000 - 39 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE









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                            News Briefing 2.8.00

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 00:27:10 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 08:22:00 -0500
Subject: News Briefing 2.8.00


TMP NEWS
The E-News Service of The Millennium Project

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

February 8, 2000

_____________________________



NEWS BRIEFING
2.8.00



QUANTA - Science and Technology


MAJOR NEW SOLAR FLARES ON SUN
With the current sunspot cycle expected to peak in mid-2000,
major solar flare activity is also increasing...
http://www.earthchangesTV.com/breaking/February2000/02607nasa.htm

NZ SCIENTISTS PRESENT THEORY ON BALL LIGHTNING
Theory proposes "balls of burning silicone" created by fork
lightning...
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/balllightning.html



EXOTICA - Unexplained Phenomena and Forteana


P3N PRESS RELEASE: FEDERAL JUDGE RESERVES DECISION ON UFO
GROUP'S REQUEST Judge will consider claims of CAUS in its case
against the Department of Defense...
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/judge.html

THE 'MONOLITH' OF PHOBOS
Images from the Mars Global Surveyor probe show an interesting
large object on the surface of this tiny moon...
http://www.vgl.org/webfiles/mars/phobos/phobos.htm

_____________________________


TMP News is the electronic news service of The Millennium
Project, providing daily news briefings of the latest relevant
news stories and reports, as well as information and updates on
TMP-related news and events. TMP News is edited by Paul Anderson
and published by TMP, and is available free by subscription; to
be added to or removed from the mailing list, send your request,
including "subscribe TMP News" or "unsubscribe TMP News" and
e-mail address to:

psa@direct.ca

For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all
correspondence to:

THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC   V6J 1J4   Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa





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                Re: A Film - New Findings and Roswell Linkage

From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 13:11:54 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 08:36:31 -0500
Subject: Re: A Film - New Findings and Roswell Linkage


 >Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 02:57:46 +0100
 >From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >Subject: Re: A Film - New Findings and Roswell Linkage
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:43:23 +0000
 >>To:  updates@sympatico.ca
 >>Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:23:49 -0500

 >>Subject: A Film - New Findings and Roswell Linkage -

 >>All,

 >>My appologies to list memebers who have attempted to access the
 >>web address I gave below. Due to a typo on my part directly
 >>accessing this address has been returning error404's over the
 >>ast 12 hrs. I have now corrected the problem and it is
 >>available. Those accessing the page via the sites own links
 >>should have had no probs.
 >>Sorry to all who called in and found the door locked
 >><g>.
 >>http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/new-1/aalink/index.htmIs
 >>now open..

 >>Neil.

 >Neil & List:

 >Note that you have "decided" that the beam inscriptions should
 >be read in this position - and not turned around 180 degrees -
 >i.e., from the upside down view!

 >I viewed it from upside down, and I found out that this was
 >easier to look at, and I also tried to concentrate more on the
 >lighter contrasts.

 >You have also "decided" that the inscriptions should be
 >interpreted by viewing the dark (coloured?) parts of it - and
 >not the light (coloured?), contrasted parts.

 >Then there migt be different interpretetions due to this.

 >Regards,

 >Asgeir


Asgeir,

The interpretation of the markings throughout the debris in the
FW pics and the AA Debris Footage is of course subjective to the
observer. In my case the darker "back-to-back J" on the AA beam
caught my eye as matching the similar marking in the FW image,
which by the way _is_ _not_ a "darker" marking but a raised
marking on a reflective metallic beam, as they do match from two
diverse sources and in two forms to me is also telling and also
possibly indicates my using the "darker" version for
interpretation was correct.

As I have mentioned on this list before, the "markings/symbols"
seen on the FW debris take a range of forms, raised, embossed
and surface (dark on light and light on dark). A light on dark
surface marking on the "balloon envelope" can be seen at:

http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/new-1/rmblncrp.gif

Three types (inc the above), embossed, raised and surface can be
seen, together with Roswell witness drawings of debris symbols
viewed, at:

http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/new-1/compx.gif


Neil.

--
*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *
Neil Morris.       /101101101 Virtual Bumper Stickers Inc 10110101010\
Dept of Physics.   1                                                 1
Univ of Manchester 0                                                 0
Schuster Labs.     1  Computer Programmers DO IT with BITS of BYTES  1
Brunswick St.      0                                                 0
Manchester.        1                                                 1
UK.                \0101010110010110110010110101101011011110101011010/
G8KOQ


              E-mail: neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk

Roswell and Alien Autopsy Archive-> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/
Dave Willetts Home Page->   http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/dave_willetts/
Mike Sterling Home Page->   http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/mike-s/
Tim Morgan Home Page   ->   http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/tim-m/

*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *









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                    Death of Viaud Marcel, Wife of Jesse

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 09:24:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 08:40:34 -0500
Subject: Death of Viaud Marcel, Wife of Jesse


Stan Friedman wrote:

I am sad to report that I was just notified of the death on
February 6 of Viaud Marcel, mother of Dr. Jesse Marcel (and
wife of the late Jesse A. Marcel), in Helena, Montana.

She had been in poor health for some time.

Dr. Marcel was an only child.

His father died in 1986.








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                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 12:06:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 13:49:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 18:49:10 +1300 (NZDT)
 >From: Murray Bott <murrayb@win.co.nz>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: Updates List <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Greetings List

 >For Stanton Friedman

 >Stan you criticised me for not quoting "your" work when I raised
 >some questions to you (on the list) about MJ12

 >Now you fail to quote the name of your own source (the
 >archivists) when requested. This seems to me that you are
 >operating double standards here.

 >You have attempted to be-little me and others when claiming the
 >number of Archives you have visited. The rhetoric which you seem
 >to engage in has failed to impress me or validate your work.

 >If you have received such statements from these Archivists then
 >quote their names as I am another who cannot take your claim (or
 >many other claims of yours) too seriously.

 >I respectfully suggest thet you put up the names of your sources
 >to this list or simply stop posting such "unsupported" claims.
 >Regards,


Murray.

I had previously noted the name of the Marshall Archives
archivist, Dr. Larry Bland, whose name is also in TOP
SECRET/MAJIC.

I had previously noted the name of  archivist Dr. Herbert
Pankratz at the Ike Library.

Dr. Bland had noted that if TS Control Numbers had been required
on all TS documents, we would still be fighting WW 2.

Pankratz had stated, and I quoted from his letter, that often
the White House did not use TS Control numbers.

Furthermore I had stated that I had published in my 108 page,
1990, "Final Report on Operation Majestic 12" several TS
documents without control numbers.

Try pages B-4, B-5, E-8, E-9, E11.

They were included to provide relevant information and NOT
because they didn't have TS control numbers.

I am sure I have more in my files.

I also published three documents from DCI Allen Dulles to
Colonel Goodpaster at the White House each with a different date
format to show that violations of the government style manual
were common, rather than being a reason for rejecting the EBD.

There is an enormous difference between not repeating names of
persons who have been very helpful, and who probably don't want
to be attacked by various UFO persons, and not referring to my
published work before asking me in a very accusatory fashion
about items covered therein..

Certainly it is not my goal in life to impress you. Why should
it be?

Stan Friedman








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                  NASA Set For Historic Asteroid Encounter

From: NASANews@hq.nasa.gov
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 13:20:22 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 13:53:57 -0500
Subject: NASA Set For Historic Asteroid Encounter


Don Savage
Headquarters, Washington, DC    February 8, 2000
(Phone:  202/358-1547)

Helen Worth
Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, Laurel, MD
  (Phone:  240/228-5113)

NOTE TO EDITORS:  N00-4

Events And Briefings Set For Historic Asteroid Encounter

On Valentine's Day 2000, NASA's NEAR spacecraft will
probably be causing many hearts to beat faster than normal --
especially people in mission control.  They will be watching
over the spacecraft as it makes its second attempt to gently
enter orbit around the near-Earth asteroid Eros, named for the
Greek god of love.

The NEAR (Near Earth Asteroid Rendezvous) mission, the first
mission to orbit an asteroid, is being conducted for NASA by the
Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, Laurel, MD.
Once in orbit, NEAR will begin a year-long scientific study to
scrutinize Eros, including its chemical and physical features
and evolutionary history.  The asteroid is about twice the size
of Manhattan Island.

The following activities are scheduled:

Feb. 14, 2000 -- Encounter Day

9:15 a.m. - 11:30 a.m. EST - Rendezvous Activities at the
Applied Physics Laboratory's Kossiakoff Auditorium.  Includes
mission overviews and a live video feed from the Mission
Operations Center during orbit insertion and confirmation.  To
be broadcast live on NASA TV.

2:00 p.m. EST - Press Briefing in the Kossiakoff Center.
Includes rendezvous details and distribution of the first
after-orbit insertion image.  To be broadcast live on NASA TV
with two-way question-and-answer capability for reporters
covering the event from participating NASA centers.

Feb. 17, 2000

1:00 p.m. EST - Early Results Press Briefing in the James E.
Webb Auditorium at NASA Headquarters, 300 E St. SW, Washington,
D.C.  Includes early science return information and images.  To
be broadcast live on NASA TV with two-way question-and-answer
capability for reporters covering the event from participating
NASA centers.

NASA Television is broadcast on the GE2 satellite, located on
Transponder 9C, at 85 degrees West longitude, frequency 3880.0
Mhz, audio 6.8 MHz.  Audio of the broadcast will be available on
voice circuit at the Kennedy Space Center on 407/867-1220.

Contact Helen Worth of JHU APL at 240/228-5113 for media
accreditation to cover Encounter Day activities.

Images and movies of Eros as NEAR closes in are available at:

   http://near.jhuapl.edu

  - end -


    * * *

NASA press releases and other information are available
automatically by sending an Internet electronic mail message to
domo@hq.nasa.gov. In the body of the message (not the subject
line) users should type the words "subscribe press-release" (no
quotes).  The system will reply with a confirmation via E-mail
of each subscription.  A second automatic message will include
additional information on the service. NASA releases also are
available via CompuServe using the command GO NASA.  To
unsubscribe from this mailing list, address an E-mail message to
domo@hq.nasa.gov, leave the subject blank, and type only
"unsubscribe press-release" (no quotes) in the body of the
message.








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                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 13:57:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 14:01:47 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


Dear Serge,

re your last response...

<snip>

 >Anyway, my favorite information show is Frontline on PBS.

 >I went to:

 >http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/press/index.html

 >titled: 'Why America Hates The Press'

 >... and casually hit the 'Venality and Vanities' button or,
 >better, 'The Interviews' button where "Eight journalists discuss
 >wealth, celebrity, and the corruption of journalism."

 >Ah... will you have the courage?... Read the interviews of David
 >Broder, Ellen Goodman, Geneva Overholser, all Pulitzer winners.
 >Even Bob Woodward in there ("All the President's Men"), Pulitzer
 >winner also.

Serge, seriously, no sarcasm, thank you, that was fascinating
reading. I have no problem believing what these people are
saying, I have my own list of horror stories about the industry.
My personal, least liked U.S. journalist would be Dan Rather.
The man botched his report after representing CBS at the first
viewing of the Zapruder film on Nov. 24/63 and hasn't improved
any in honesty or ability since.

But I regard my industry as I do my children (while
acknowledging that on the whole my kids are brighter.)If someone
attacks my industry, I'll respond. I've always worked in the
private sector, which is vulnerable to economic as well as
governmental pressure. I've done stories that _really_ peeved
major advertisers. While the sales manager may have worn a long
face for a few days, nobody ever told me to knock it off.

And while the temptations, pits and pressure increase with a
reporter's stature, not all fall under the same spell. Is Steve
Cameron a government lapdog. Does Seymour Hirsch (sp?)accept
what the government tells him and go away.

We won't bother polling the business community or political
arena to see if anyone in those industries has ever succumbed to
the temptations of wealth, influence and fame. We'll both
concede those two areas are untainted by any untoward behavior.
(Huh?)

And one note, an apology which I mean sincerely. The shot about
Quebec journalists and politicians was just that, a cheap shot,
singularly inappropriate and as a cross-dressing transsexual
autistic Scot with a limp, you'd think I'd know better.

Bottom line for me is, the notion of government control of the
media coupled with the "you'll never learn the truth about UFOs
from the media because of that" really whistles up my kilt.

If the government really didn't want you to know about UFOs
there never would have been X-Files or CNN reports on the
Phoenix sighting... or the lawsuit filed against the U.S. DoD
yesterday. If the government could control the media as well as
is claimed, you can make up your own list of screw-ups, north or
south of the border that would never have seen the light of day,
even without UFO's in the picture.

Plus when someone says "You won't learn the truth from the
media" they're saying in essence that everyone in the media is a
stooge or a puppet, a liar or a moron. That's the type of
blanket stereotyping that offends us when people say "UFO
research? You must be crazy!"

And finally, as much as they might like to think otherwise, the
media isn't just Time-Warner, CNN, the Big Three U.S. networks
or C.B.C. and CTV. It's also Mother Jones, Rolling Stone, the
Village Voice et al. And it's you and I debating on the UFO
Updates list.

Serge, you might never convince me, I might never convince you,
but god I love arguing about it.

Take care, Brador rules

Mike Woods
(a rum and coke fan)

The truth can STAY out there,
send in a good fantasy!









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                       SDI On Space Channel Tonight...

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 14:12:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 14:12:52 -0500
Subject: SDI On Space Channel Tonight...


For those of you able to tune Canada's Space Channel,
Natasha their vidiographer was shooting at CFRB, on
Sunday night last, during 'Strange Days... Indeed'.

Mike Woods, Jonn Kares and I will probably be
featured tonight at 6:55, 8:55, and 10:55., between
their regular programming. The same item is repeated in
those slots and every two hours until somebody complains <g>

For those of you who've never seen our faces be warned,
it could turn most ugly.

ebk









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                         Ice From The Sky In Holland

From: Jeroen Kumeling <ufonet@xs4all.nl>
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 23:19:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 14:39:23 -0500
Subject: Ice From The Sky In Holland

Hello listmembers,

There is  really a new phenomenon going on worldwide. I
heard today that some iceblocks also fell in Holland.

I hope I can report in a few hours about that.

Jeroen Kumeling
UFONET








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                     Re: SDI On Space Channel Tonight...

From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 16:25:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:06:20 -0500
Subject: Re: SDI On Space Channel Tonight...


 >Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 14:12:52 -0500
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: SDI On Space Channel Tonight...
 >To: 02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers


 >For those of you able to tune Canada's Space Channel,
 >Natasha their videographer was shooting at CFRB, on
 >Sunday night last, during 'Strange Days... Indeed'.

 >Mike Woods, Jonn Kares and I will probably be
 >featured tonight at 6:55, 8:55, and 10:55., between
 >their regular programming. The same item is repeated in
 >those slots and every two hours until somebody complains <g>

 >For those of you who've never seen our faces be warned,
 >it could turn most ugly.

 >ebk


Dear List,

This correction beamed down from the controllers at Space:

The Videographer feature runs at 3:55pm, 5:55pm, 7:55pm, etc
every 2 hours round the clock for 24 hours...

Of course, I missed the 3:55pm airing.

Mike Woods

The truth can STAY out there,
send in a good fantasy!







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                     William Moore on MJ-12 and Roswell

From: Hkan Eriksson <hakan.eriksson@swipnet.se>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 21:57:40 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:19:07 -0500
Subject: William Moore on MJ-12 and Roswell


I think it�s time to take a closer look at William Moore�s
statements about MJ-12 and Roswell. After reading the quotes
from his letters one could get the impression that he has
dramatically changed his opinion concerning these issues.
However, it seems to me that the debaters who refer to Moore
only quote some of his negative statements, but they don�t
mention his later clarifications.

For instance, what does Moore actually think of the MJ-12
documents today:

"I know little more about them today than I knew when Shandera
and I wrote our report on the subject six years ago, and my
opinion concerning them remains the same as it was then i.e., I
still consider the matter an open question."

( Saucer Smear, 11-15-96 )

In their report Moore and Shandera said they were almost
convinced that the Cutler-Twining Memo was authentic; they
thought the Eisenhower Briefing Document was probably genuine (
a 75 % probability ) and that the Truman Memorandum could be a
well done fabrication ( a 65 % probability ). So according to
Moore�s own public statement, this is his opinion today as well.
He has repeated that several times. In a letter published in
Saucer Smear 05-05-99 he also criticizes those who claim the
Cutler-Twining Memo is a fake.

Considering the above I don�t see why some MJ-12 skeptics keep
refering to William Moore in the discussion.

As for Roswell, many debaters like to talk about Moore�s
"resignation". But what does he really say about the case?

"To clarify futher, I still think the ET explanation remains
valid as one of *several possible explanations* and that it is
still worth of futher investigation and consideration. It�s just
that in light of the large body of the new evidence in hand I no
longer think that it is necessarily the best of those *several
possibible explanations*." ( Moore�s emphasis ).

( Saucer Smear, 11-01-98 )

So today Moore doesn�t "necessarily" think the ET-explanation is
the best explanation for the case, but he still thinks it�s a
possible explanation worth of futher investigation. Is this
really such a big deal?

Re: MJ-12 and Roswell: I�m sure there ary many good arguments on
both sides, but refering to William Moore�s public statements
about these issues doesn�t seem to prove or demonstrate anything
special.


                 Regards

                Hkan Eriksson












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                Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 15:47:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:22:28 -0500
Subject: Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes


 >Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 00:41:16 -0600
 >From: Stephen Miles Lewis <elfis@austin.rr.com>
 >Subject: Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 15:46:03 -0500
 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >>Subject: Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 22:30:08 -0500
 >>>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@temporaldoorway.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 10:42:34 -0500 (EST)
 >>>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>>Subject: 60% of Abductees Are Gay - Randle & Estes
 >>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Howdy John, Mark, Bob & all...

 ><snip>

 >>Hi Mark, hi Bob, hi All,

 >>I'd just like to try to 'tie in' this conversation to the
 >>original subject of this thread which is Randle & Estes'
 >>outrageous claim that "60% of Abductees Are Gay." They claim to
 >>have arrived at those figures by conducting some kind of
 >>"abductee" survey/poll which no one seems to be questioning.

 >Information on the "survey" is available in their book _The
 >Abduction Enigma_ by Kevin D. Randle, Russ Estes, and William P.
 >Cone, Ph.D.

 >We know from your past posts that you do not have a copy.
 >Therefore I have taken it upon myself to take up my copy, which
 >I have not read until now, and cursorily examine it for relevant
 >information.

Thank you Stephen! :)

<snip>

 >    Velez, John, 57
 >[not relevant to topic but a pleasant referance]

Yeah, I was attempting to warn everyone to steer clear of that
UPN fiasco. At the time, the producers were actively recruiting
everyone and anyone in ufology to appear on that horrible thing.

 >... relevant quotes below....

 >To address the specifics of how Randle, Estes & Cone handled
 >their study:
 >

 >p. 91 - Chapter 5 - The Sexual Component of Alien Abduction

 >"In the process of interviewing over a hundred people who claim
 >to be abductees, it has become painfully clear that sexuality is
 >a major part of abduction. A vast majority of the abductees felt
 >that the experience went well beyond reproductive curiosity and
 >smack dab into lusty sex.

100 respondants does not make a statistically significant
sampling.

Apparently the only 'qualifiers' used to include or exclude
people from the survey was the respondants 'claim' that they had
been abducted.

No other 'discriminators' (to quote the latest dialog) were
applied.

"Vast majority?" How many out of a measley (hundred) is a "vast"
majority?

 >p. 98 - same chapter
 >
 >In setting up our protocols for the interview process, we added
 >questions on blatant sexuality, such as, 'Was there any physical
 >contact? Was there actual penetration? How has this affected
 >your earthbound sex life? What was the gender of the alien
 >beings? How has this experience affected your ability to
 >maintain relationships? What do you remember about your family
 >life as you were growing up?'

'Sometimes' researchers manage to find _exactly_ what they are
looking for and they can 'find it' whether it is actually there
or not.  :)

<snip>

 >On one occasion we were interviewing a male abductee on camera.
 >Also present were about eight other members of an abduction
 >support group and the abduction researcher/hypnotherapist. The
 >gentleman that we were interviewing was so open about his sexual
 >preferance, homosexuality, that the researcher who had been
 >working with him for over two years was shocked. She was hearing
 >things about his sexuality and sexual orientation of which she
 >had no knowledge.

Ok, that's -one- so far. I'm still waiting to find out where
they got that (60% of all abductees) figure.

 >Nearly every person that we interviewed was a long-term abductee

As determined by 'what' criteria?

 >If any of the other researchers would have walked that highly
 >personal path they might have found that a higher than average
 >number of abductees were either homosexual, hypersexual, or
 >asexual.

Unsubstantiated claim. If this is the caliber of 'science' that
current Ph.D's are capable of, then our educational system is in
deep caca.

 >A very high percentage of both the male and female abductees
 >that we interviewed openly stated a sexual preferance of
 >homosexuality or bisexuality.

60 out of a hundred. Without having any criteria set up, how
does anyone know they didn't consciously or unconsciously
'select' respondants for inclusion that demonstrated certain
characteristics? Characteristics that reinforce their
own'theory.' "Science" is different from the kind of speculating
we do on the list. If they are going to present their survey as
'science' then -do the science!-

 >Of course, defining normal in any society would be a
 >tough call.

As it is with this subject.

 >The previous post is not meant as endorsement of the findings
 >nor the methods.

I don't blame you Stephen! The whole thing is _sloppy_ at best.

 >However I think this is yet another valuable
 >area for dialogue on the under-explored subject of ...
 >Abductee Demographics

I agree. I'd just like to see better
standards/criteria/parameters employed in such "studies."

I am still not impressed with their work or their methods.

Amateurish. Not to be taken seriously or given any credence.

Thanx again for all the valuable info Stephen. It is much
appreciated. :)

John Velez









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                      Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 16:16:43 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:25:44 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell


 >Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 13:57:58 -0500
 >From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Dear Serge,

 >re your last response...

 ><snip>

 >>Anyway, my favorite information show is Frontline on PBS.

 >>I went to:

 >>http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/press/index.html

 >>titled: 'Why America Hates The Press'

 >>... and casually hit the 'Venality and Vanities' button or,
 >>better, 'The Interviews' button where "Eight journalists discuss
 >>wealth, celebrity, and the corruption of journalism."

 >>Ah... will you have the courage?... Read the interviews of David
 >>Broder, Ellen Goodman, Geneva Overholser, all Pulitzer winners.
 >>Even Bob Woodward in there ("All the President's Men"), Pulitzer
 >>winner also.

 >Serge, seriously, no sarcasm, thank you, that was fascinating
 >reading. I have no problem believing what these people are
 >saying, I have my own list of horror stories about the industry.
 >My personal, least liked U.S. journalist would be Dan Rather.
 >The man botched his report after representing CBS at the first
 >viewing of the Zapruder film on Nov. 24/63 and hasn't improved
 >any in honesty or ability since.


 >Mike Woods
 >(a rum and coke fan)


A huge volume of material was snipped Doctor Wooden, but I am
most upset, highly intoberated and definitely downright
insigredious.  I thought you was high classed. But that was just
a line.  To what do I reefer?  Your unexpected assault on the
inta gritty of Cossa Nostra, Gripple.

How can you just sit there and be a corrupted journalist and not
drink Gripple?  And just what do think Dan Rather drinks?  He
drinks rum and Coke.  But you?  You bat rastard, you
defecticated to the competition.  I am ashamed that I laughed at
you.  I am ashamed that I once winced at you.  And (sobs) I
thought you was a friend.  Alas, you are a fiend.

I am ratubitated, unremunerated and fatuously pooped at
being the salsa of your xenophobia.  I don't know what that
means but it sounds just awful doe'n'it?.

Gripple Meister







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                 Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell & Gripple

From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:42:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 18:08:34 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell & Gripple


 >Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 16:16:43 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 13:57:58 -0500
 >>From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >>Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca




Dear Jim,

What can I say. In the heat of combat, or midde-age craziness or
the damn space heater my kids slid under my chair....I just plum
forget my fondness for the Gripple.

Of course, grappling with Gripple isn't tussling with tipple
which I used to like to try, two falls (mine) out of three.

And there's a nod owed for occasional odd odes so its not like I
begrude the time.

So I'll wipe Gripple from my chin and leave with a grin, you
know, the ****-eating kind.

Besides, Gripple has been my main line of alien defence for
years. I stack the empties under the windows and in front of the
doors. That'll catch 'em.

Bye,

Mike Woods

The truth can STAY out there,
send in a good fantasy!









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   Feb > Feb 9

                 Mysteries of the New Millennium Convention

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 15:50:02 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 16:44:17 -0500
Subject: Mysteries of the New Millennium Convention


Discovery UK and the British Paranormal Fortean Society are
proud to present

Mysteries of the New Millennium Convention

We have gone one better to cater for the disabled and have
comfortable seats at our forthcoming Convention on 4/3/00 in
Warrington at the Patten Arms Hotel, which we are assured by
staff is haunted!  The venue is directly opposite Bank Quay
station, and is easily accessible from the M56, M6 and A49.  Bar
snacks and refreshments are available.

Speakers

*Jenny Randles on a wide range of Mersey Valley anomalies

*Arthur Tomlinson speaking about the Mysteries of Ancient Egypt

*Carolyn Buckley on Paranormal Cheshire

*Eric Morris revealing the connection between the Hack Green
Bunker and UFOs

*Steve Mera with details of Paranormal Photography and the
Winter Hill MIB case

*Lynda Matthews discussing Psychic Detectives

*Tim Matthews lifting the lid off the Saucer Phenomenon with
documented proof

And all this for a fiver!!!
Start 10.00am,  Finish 8.00pm

Tickets can be reserved by sending a cheque/PO for five pounds
(made payable to Eric Morris) to the following address:

78 Greenall Road
Northwich
Cheshire
CW9 5RN
Tel (01606) 330567

We advise early booking as places are limited due to intense
media interest.

If hotel accommodation is required, please contact us, as we may
be able to arrange a discount.

Eric Morris  - VMAUFO@cs.com
Carolyn Buckley - cosmiccarrie@hotmail.com
Tim Matthews - TMMatthews99@aol.com

Please feel free to distribute this information to your friends & colleagues.









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   Feb > Feb 9

                  Re: Death of Viaud Marcel, Wife of Jesse

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:16:13 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 16:45:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Death of Viaud Marcel, Wife of Jesse


 >Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 09:24:01 -0400
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Death of Viaud Marcel, Wife of Jesse
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Stan Friedman wrote:

 >I am sad to report that I was just notified of the death on
 >February 6 of Viaud Marcel, mother of Dr. Jesse Marcel (and
 >wife of the late Jesse A. Marcel), in Helena, Montana.

 >She had been in poor health for some time.

 >Dr. Marcel was an only child.

 >His father died in 1986.

Thanks for advising us, Stan.

I am sorry to hear this, but I realize we all meet our end in
time.

REgards, Mike

  Download ICQ at http://www.icq.com/
  ICQ#:7508455
  BBS: (270) 683-3026
  Fax: (270) 686-7394
  Home: (270) 683-6811
         ---








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   Feb > Feb 9

                    Re: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2)

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 18:15:29 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 16:47:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2)


 >Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 01:34:31 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <Alintelbot@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2)
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 22:51:52 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >>Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2)
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 >>Although the Cydonia site seems to be the focus of many for
 >>possible evidence of alien structures on Mars, it is not the
 >>only one by far.  My favourite is the infrared image of Mars
 >>taken by the Phobos 2 spaceprobe in 1989 which seems to reveal
 >>an underground Martian city from its radiated heat.  Dr. John
 >>Becklake of the London Science Museum is quoted as saying "The
 >>city-like pattern is 60 kilometers wide and could be easily
 >>mistaken for an aerial view of Los Angeles.".

 >Hi, Nick,

 >Yes, I've heard of this image but have never seen it.  Is it
 >available online?  Please direct me to a publication where I can
 >see this!

Hi Mac.

If this anomalous infrared image of Mars was of the Earth, it
would be considered very reasonable to conclude that it shows
the radiated heat pattern for an underground city or grid system
of tunnels.  But we are dealing with Mars here...

I recall seeing this infrared image years ago, possibly in some
publication about UFOs, but a quick search on the Internet and
my collection of UFO books at work yielded nothing.
Fortunately, I was able to find a video at my local public
library that had this infrared image, as well as many other
anomalous images taken by Phobos 2.  The name of the video was
"Are We Alone?" and is based on the book Genesis Revisited by
Zecharia Sitchin.

Nick










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                 Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell & Gripple

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 20:08:31 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 16:51:00 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell & Gripple


 >Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:42:43 -0500
 >From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell & Gripple
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 16:16:43 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 13:57:58 -0500
 >>>From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >>>Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Dear Jim,

 >What can I say. In the heat of combat, or midde-age craziness or
 >the damn space heater my kids slid under my chair....I just plum
 >forget my fondness for the Gripple.

 >Of course, grappling with Gripple isn't tussling with tipple
 >which I used to like to try, two falls (mine) out of three.

 >And there's a nod owed for occasional odd odes so its not like I
 >begrude the time.

 >So I'll wipe Gripple from my chin and leave with a grin, you
 >know, the ****-eating kind.

 >Besides, Gripple has been my main line of alien defence for
 >years. I stack the empties under the windows and in front of the
 >doors. That'll catch 'em.


Thank you.  I knew you were as corrupted a my old Tandy
1000TX hard drive, but I was ashamed to admit it until you
fessed up to erring over good booze. Anyone who admits to
being wrong wears a white hat in my book.  I wear a white
hat too, however I also get to eat it every once in a while.

Regarding my book, not that you are in it or anything.  But you
can be.  I am presently accepting honorariums for inclusion
and/or exclusion.  Thus far, I have offers from AA, AA, AA, the
AAA and General Motors.

These would be, "Alcoholics Anonymous, Abductees Anonymous,
Aliens Anonymous and the American Automobile Association."
General Motors offered me the biggest honorarium, uh, bribe
actually ... perhaps a warning eh?, for not mentioning them in
my book.

I plan to accept all honorariums.  Alls _you_ gotta do is make
me an offer I can't refuse.  Usually, anything over twenty bucks
will suffice.  Hell, you have _no idea_ how many people are out
there not wanting to be mentioned in the thingy.

One very wealthy guy who lives on a farm (a funny one, I think)
offered to pay me significantly if I failed to publish it (the
book).

As to odd odes, uh, sorry.  But I am afraid I don't know what
they are.  However have you seen the new TV Internet show on
Alfred's Web Site?  Check it out.  But before you do, Al and his
friend Al are a little short on funds and cannot as yet afford a
pickle barrel and some things for the walls.  I've offered them
my autographed head of the Jackalope I shot recently, but these
Als' are so proud, you know?  Wouldn't take it.  Maybe one a
yous got one without the autograph which you may wish to donate
to their set?

Just don't tell them I aksed.  They, too, made me an offer of an
honorarium but failed to honor me all that much.  So I refused.

Boy will they be surprised when they get that horse!  The one
sans corpora lutea.  Or is that "glutea?"  Damn.  I'm so
confused!

Docca J. Jaime Gesundt, Philosophically Deprived and loving
every moment of it.








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                  Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 01:19:38 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 16:53:49 -0500
Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip


Regarding:

 >Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 13:13:41 -0500
 >To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

Roger wrote:

 >Hi, James!
 >With all due respect, you make a distinction without a
 >difference. Straightforward or not, a hoax is a hoax.


Roger,

As noted, the point was - in response to Steve's comments "I
found it quite interesting that SFX people all viewed it as a
fake that they could have done better" - that not all SFX
artists damned the footage as an obvious hoax.

No disagreement that a hoax is a hoax, irrespective of the
quality. Quite the reverse in fact. It's possible to cite a
number of features with the 'autopsy' and 'debris' films which
are indicative of them possibly being genuine. We mustn't get
carried away though and keep in mind the fundamental reasons why
these are actually fakes.


 >...AA presents no technological challenges that had not already
 >been solved thirty years ago when Stan was just another effects
 >person trying to land "the big job". It's basically a sculpt,
 >cast and paint sort of effects job;

That's a sweeping statement which fails to take into account
some material you're possibly not aware of. Few people are,
simply because it's from discussions on that pivotal CompuServe
UFO forum.

What became evident is that when examined in detail, some of the
visible special effects were difficult to explain, especially
concerning the 'scalp removal' sequence. Stan Winston [SW] and
one of his team [T] noticed this when interviewed:

SW: This is what I find most interesting...

T: Yea, very real...

SW: ...is the peeling of the skin and how to create that on a
skull..

T: ...cast the skull inside the skin..

SW: But what about the wetness?

T: And what about the unevenness of it, it's not like it's been
cored.

SW: And what about the bleeding of it, the wetness of it that is
not... you don't see tubes spurting, you don't see blood drip,
it's just all evenly wet.
[END]

Without getting into the technical aspects and again, what's the
point if at the end we still have a SFX movie, I would only
emphasise that, for example, as Theresa Carlson noted (she was
working with a broadcast quality copy of the footage which Ray
Santilli provided for her to analyse):

"I would ask Trey Stokes this, but he is really busy now, and
probably won't see the messages. Hopefully some other people here
on the forum have some sfx knowledge and might be able to answer
it.

This is a quote from Trey's article, 'How To Make An Alien
Autopsy', which is in the library here if anyone hasn't seen it:


"The head requires a little extra attention because we want to
peel back the skin and reveal a skull. We're not really going to
see very much of this in our final film so all we need to do is
put a solid shape - most likely made of plaster or fiberglass -
into the hollow left behind by the core. In fact we'd probably
use a duplicate of our core to ensure an exact fit."


Okay, how do they get the core inside the head?  Can't open it
up from the back like they do on the body, it will show.  Also,
close examination shows that the "skull" is the same skull when
he starts sawing on it as it is when it is being peeled.  There
was no switch of material there.  Small bumps, grooves and
tissue pieces remain consistent between the scenes.

And there is yet another problem with the head part of the film.
When the doctor is peeling back the frontal part of the scalp,
he pulls so hard that the head lifts up off the table. If you
rewind it you can see the nurse put her weight into it. So this
is some strong material used for skin.  That's no problem I
suppose except for one detail. As the skin pulls loose it is wet
under there.  Now there is no break in the camera during this to
"dress" the skin as Trey says. It's wet when it comes loose.

How did they do that? How did the get it to stick that well, and
still be wet?  And also, the skin shows an elastic quality when
the doctor lets it go after pulling on it. But it doesn't snap
back like rubber, it oozes back. Does that sound like silicon?
Is silicone strong enough to yank on it like he does?

Anyone know how this is done?"
[End]


There was some SFX expertise on the forum and no-one was able to
resolve the question of how this overall effect could have been
achieved. Every suggestion had a proven obstacle. Trey Stokes
participated in some of the discussions and was asked what the
answer could be. He didn't provide a solution.

No-one has, so far as I know, although doubtless it exists.

So, it's maybe not justified to say that all the SFX was 'old
hat'.

One thing which wasn't, would be the use of chemicals to produce
the effect of 'blood/alien fluid', when 'skin' was cut by the
scalpel. It was actually being cut, as could be proven. This
effect must have been achieved using the reactive 'A + B'
'blood' chemicals - one 'painted' onto the scalpel and the other
on the 'body' - more recently used in SFX. It couldn't have been
a 'blood knife' as some SFX analysts claimed, including
initially Trey Stokes, because both sides of the scalpel were
sometimes visible in sequence and it clearly didn't have a
hidden 'blood tube'.


It is arguably important to make these points. The 'autopsy'
footage was often dismissed by experienced SFX artists for
reasons which were invalid. Aside from the 'blood knife',
observations that only three walls were ever shown and it was
probably a studio set, Trey's ridicule of how the 'rigid neck'
not lying flat on the table wasn't consistent with 'bodies' and
other claims, were shown to be assumptions which objective
research 'debunked'.

The question being asked by our 'Roswell alien autopsy' was
perhaps not so much 'is it real or fake', as 'what criteria do
you apply in making that judgement'.

In many instances, a preconception, or bias, was seen to be a
major factor.

The footage may not have been authentic, but it was,
figuratively, very, very close and it took a year's dedicated
research from Theresa Carlson - not the SFX community - to
illustrate anomalies which were that illusive 'no way'.

Except for a full scale invasion when we all become slaves, I
doubt if ufologists will ever have more substantial, _tangible_
evidence of aliens.

I suspect Ray Santilli would agree and I was reminded of a
comment he made during discussions on that CompuServe forum, in
July 1995:

"I am sorry that I don't have a grainy black and white photo
with a small dark disk in the background, which is were some
people would like to see Ufology stay".


James.










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                        Caution - Fowl Play Afoot...

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 21:30:55 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 16:56:12 -0500
Subject: Caution - Fowl Play Afoot...


Remembering the story about the boy who cried "wolf" one too
many times has granted a level of caution within me.
Notwithstanding this illusary, sometimes utopian cerebration,
this perceived abductee would like do something close to crying
"wolf."  I would care to cry, "fowl."  Note please, that I am
not crying foul, but fowl!  As in chicken, duck, goose or
guinea.

Thusfar, we have been entertained by those who claim having seen
flying saucers, pelicans, methane gas (aka, "swamp gas") and
hell, even satellites flying in formation.  I myself have made
extraordinary claims of having floated thru walls, casement
windows and such. Alas, I have no extraordinary proof for these
extraordinary claims.  Just my word.

Which brings me to the Feenamint.  The finally.  The straight
poop so to speak. Here she comes, ready or not.

Chickens.

Unidentified frying chickens. Fowl play if I ever heard it. And
why not alien chickens?  Is there some kind of law that says
aliens must look like the traditional gray (or is it grey?)?  Is
it the law that they must look like what everyone else says they
look like? Mantis critters ... insectoid ... big eyes and even
bigger heads?

Huh?

Well, what do you think Alien entities eat?  Given that they've
been coming here for eons and given that they must subsist on
some kind of food, why the hell not chicken?  And given their
alien tastes, why not a specially bred chicken; one which may
give them a challenge in the battle between prey and the hungry?

My theory is that this chupacabre thingy is a specially bred
chicken!  This is an extraordinary claim and, according to some
researchers on this venue, it consequently requires
extraordinary proof.

Well, I have none.  I say that Chupacabre is a goat sucking
chicken.  Let's start a thread on this subject.  I insist. I am
tired of listening to stuff about Roswell and ice from hell and
all the rest of this nonesense.  Let us speak of something
important for a change.  Let's discuss alien chickens.

Now if you'll excuse me, I must go feed the chupacabras. They
make really neat little packaged meals; I call them MRE.  Some
people call them eggs.  How gauche.

J. Jaime Gesundt









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                            Re: The Eyes Have It

From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 21:38:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 16:57:53 -0500
Subject: Re: The Eyes Have It


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>

 >>From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com>

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>

 >>>Now, Mr. Randle and Mr. Klass and Mr. or Ms. Whomever, go ahead
 >>>and tell me it never happened. Tell me I'm gay, or that I am
 >>>having a waking dream or one of those sleep disorder thingies,
 >>>sleep paralysis or whatever.

 >>You obviously have some serious objections to the approach that
 >>Kevin Randle and others have taken, but there is a middle ground
 >>that both sides have prematurely dismissed as if by mutual
 >>consent: That at least some Alien Abduction Experiences are most
 >>likely taking place during a period of Awareness during Sleep
 >>Paralysis, ASP.

 >having experienced sleep paralysis about thrice (from my
 >recall), I am saying that some of my perceived alien abduction
 >experiences have not likely taken place during a period of
 >awareness during sleep paralysis.

Does that mean (as it seems to imply) that some of your
perceived alien abduction experiences *have* likely taken place
during a period of awareness during sleep paralysis?

 >I've experienced two types of sleep paralysis. The first is
 >simply being paralyised and unable to do anything but breathe
 >and move my eyes. There was no halucinatory factor to the
 >experience.

 >During the second type, I exhibited a freightening dream/reality
 >during which I felt an unknown presence in the room which I
 >perceived as being malevolent but which I was not able to
 >recognize. Clearly this was halucinatory and extremely
 >freightening because of it's 'unknown" factor.

Did you recognize it as hallucinatory at the time or only after
you woke up?

 >Neither has or had anything whatever to do with my perceived
 >abduction experiences. When this begins, I've been there before,
 >I recognize (often) the players, I am not paralysed in the same
 >manner

In what manner were you paralyzed?

Joe


*****************************************************
Joseph Polanik, jpolanik@mindspring.com
Trionic Research Institute, http://www.trionica.com









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                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 20:21:26 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 17:00:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 12:06:20 -0400
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 18:49:10 +1300 (NZDT)
 >>From: Murray Bott <murrayb@win.co.nz>
 >>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>To: Updates List <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Dr. Bland had noted that if TS Control Numbers had been required
 >on all TS documents, we would still be fighting WW 2.

As pointed to Stan Friedman before, the above statement bears no
relevance to whether or not TS control numbers were used by the
Department of Defense on TS documents under their control after
WWII during the Truman and Eisenhower years, a documented fact.
As a matter of fact Dr. Bland's alleged statement makes no sense
of all since classification of documents during WWII was
governed by Executive Order 8381 from March 22, 1940. This EO
provided for three classification levels, none of which was even
Top Secret. The highest level of classification recognized by
executive order was secret! Not only is Dr. Bland's alleged
statement out of synchronicity for a discussion of Top Secret
documents during the Trumman and Eisenhower administrations, it
doesn't even make sense for a discussion of classified documents
during WWII. I will  have more on how classified documents were
handled by the War Department later. It suffices to say that for
the purposes of this thread, Stanton Friedman continues to
demonstrate his total lack of knowledge regarding control
procedures of TS documents by the ignorant use of a quote that
is not relevant to the discussion at hand.

 >Pankratz had stated, and I quoted from his letter, that often
 >the White House did not use TS Control numbers.

Again, Stan Friedman shows his unconditional ignorance. Dr.
Pankratz on followup questioning conceded that control number
procedures were in place and in fact used by the department of
defense during the era in question (this was in relation to the
Cutler/Twinning memo found in record group 341 in the archives.
For those that are not aware RG341 is an Air Force record group
and not a White House record group. As pointed out before, Dr.
Pankratz's comments related to White House documents are not
relevant to copies of White House documents in the control of
the Air Force. The Air Force used control numbers during this
era (documented fact) and the Cutler-Twining memo was found in
RG 341, an Air Force record group, not a White House record
group. The Air Force would have assigned a control number to the
document as soon as it came into its control. There is no
control number which is further evidence the document is bogus.

For more on Stanton Friedman's deceptions regarding this matter see
message from Robert Todd:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m07-012.shtml

 >Furthermore I had stated that I had published in my 108 page,
 >1990, "Final Report on Operation Majestic 12" several TS
 >documents without control numbers.

See Robert Todd's message above for the lack of relevance of the
above documents to this discussion and any discussion related to
alleged top secret documents under the control of the department
of defense. All the documents not in the control of the
department of defense are not relevant to whether the
Cutler-Twining memo found in RG341 should have a TS control
number or not. It the Cutler-Twining memo was legitimate, it
would have been assigned a TS control number as soon as it came
into control of the Air Force.

 >They were included to provide relevant information and NOT
 >because they didn't have TS control numbers.

 >I am sure I have more in my files.

See above referenced message from a year ago showing Stanton
Friedman's statements to be nothing more than a repeated
deception which he has attempted to promulgate over and over on
the UFO community, arguments that have had no impact on the
outside world. It is apparent that Stanton Friedman thinks he
has the greatest story ever in the world. One just needs to ask
him, yet no reporter in the outside world has recognized it or
accepted it.  Wonder why?

Ed Stewart
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
    Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -----









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                      Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 23:35:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 17:03:17 -0500
Subject: Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos


 >Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:26:51 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >Subject: Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >I just checked out the MGS images and the calculations Lan did.
 >If the assumptions he made are correct, then there is something
 >of foreign origin on the surface of Phobos.  The surface
 >brightness of the monolith, when compared to the inside of the
 >sunlit craters for the same sun angle, is much brighter.  This
 >further supports the foreign origin of this object.

I think it would be best to be cautious on this score.

First, it is a good idea to examine the context of the image. In
other words, is the object unique?

The answer is no - there are other protrusions casting long
shadows which have apparently higher albedos. The following URL
shows the original image.

http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/html/orb_0551/55103.html

The following frames from that image show objects similar
to the "monolith"

http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/fullres/divided/orb_0551/55103k.jpg (near
the upper right and bottom center; also there are other
protrusions of similar form but with albedo similar to the
surface, and on the rim of a crater near the bottom)

http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/fullres/divided/orb_0551/55103m.jpg
(several scattered across the image)

http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/fullres/divided/orb_0551/55103l.jpg
(many small ones)

Obviously, when there are a lot of similar features of varying
size scattered across the landscape, the appearance of
uniqueness is destroyed.

The albedo variance is also not so difficult to explain. Once
you realize that there are quite a few similar objects across
the surface, you also notice that they are most prominent where
the sun angle is closest to tangential with the surface. It is
not surprising that the faces of such objects, which protrude up
into the sunlight, might be much brighter to a perpendicular
observation than the texture of the flat surface. In addition,
one notices that these anomalies become less prevalent as one
travels toward the bright side and the dark side, again
supporting a more mundane explanation for the albedo variance.
Finally, a comparison of the albedo of the "monolith" against
the albedo of the sunward surface shows no major difference,
which also supports the mundane hypothesis. (Note that a close
examination shows similar protrusions (which may well be blocks
flung from crater formation events)) on the sunward side, but
the albedo variation is much less, and so they are less
noticeable.

For instance, see

http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/fullres/divided/orb_0551/55103d.jpg

which shows a sunward surface that still exhibits these
objects.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, music and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/index.htm
------









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   Feb > Feb 9

                       TMP News: News Briefing 2.9.00

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 23:58:11 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 17:06:42 -0500
Subject: TMP News: News Briefing 2.9.00


TMP NEWS
The E-News Service of The Millennium Project

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

February 9, 2000

_____________________________



NEWS BRIEFING
2.9.00



QUANTA - Science and Technology


NASA SET FOR HISTORIC ASTEROID ENCOUNTER
Close encounter with Eros asteroid by NASA's NEAR space probe
scheduled for Valentine's Day...
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/eros.html

SOHO SEES SOLAR 'SMOKE RINGS' COMING FROM SUN
A new solar anomaly found, as the SOHO satellite discovers huge
rings of solar material being ejected from our parent star...
http://www.space.com/science/solarsystem/solar_rings_000204.html

INTERNET APPLIANCES FORECAST TO SURPASS PCs IN 2002
Cheaper and easier-to-use internet-specific appliances are now
expected to surpass sales of personal computers by 2002...
http://CNN.com/2000/TECH/computing/02/07/tech.devices.reut/index.html



EXOTICA - Unexplained Phenomena and Forteana


FALLING ICE IN HOLLAND?
Is the ice falling from the sky in Holland now, too?...
http://persweb.direct.ca/hollandice.html


_____________________________


TMP News is the electronic news service of The Millennium
Project, providing daily news briefings of the latest relevant
news stories and reports, as well as information and updates on
TMP-related news and events. TMP News is edited by Paul Anderson
and published by TMP, and is available free by subscription; to
be added to or removed from the mailing list, send your request,
including "subscribe TMP News" or "unsubscribe TMP News" and
e-mail address to:

psa@direct.ca

For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all
correspondence to:

THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC   V6J 1J4   Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

_____________________________


� The Millennium Project, 2000









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                            Perpendicular Meteors

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 10:57:14 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 17:08:31 -0500
Subject: Perpendicular Meteors


Folks,

Not quite on topic, but below is an interesting report that
appeared on the email list of our local Austin, Texas
astronomical society.  The Winter Star Party is a popular annual
observing event attended by amateur astronomers from across the
country.  Its conceivable that this sort of thing might be
reported by some folks as UFO activity.

-Brian C.


 >Greetings,

 >On saturday night, the 5th, I was at the Winter Star Party
 >in the Florida Keys.  I saw an interesting phenomena that
 >I know truly doesn't happen all that often.  It occurred
 >about 1-1:30am or so.

 >What I and a couple others near my scope witnessed was
 >two meteors streaming a quarter second apart traveling
 >perpendicular to each other forming an exact right angle
 >in the northeastern sky about 45 degrees up and app. 15-20
 >degrees in length.  All who saw it literally screamed out in
 >awe.

 >Has anyone in the club ever witnessed something like this??
 >I estimate roughly about 3rd magnitude.








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                    Randle Responds To Velez - Elsewhere

From: John Veleez<jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 16:51:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 17:27:05 -0500
Subject: Randle Responds To Velez - Elsewhere


Hello Fellow Updates readers,

UFO UpDates is the _only_ UFO related anything that I
participate in. When I post to UpDates I expect to be responded
to on UpDates, where Kevin is also a subscriber. I don't
'expect' anyone to respond to an UpDates post of mine on another
list that I'm not subscribed to, robbing me of the right to
defend myself there.

Kevin Randle has done just that. I received a copy of the
following e-mail from someone who is a complete stranger to me.
(See attributions.) In it, Kevin Randle talks about me and the
UpDates thread. That's all well and good so far. The problem is,
he is not submitting a copy to UpDates where poeple who are
being mentioned can respond.

If he's going to respond to an UpDates posting then he should
respond to it _on_ UFO UpDates! Period. I am sorry for this
lengthy post but this is an important issue.

Attributions:

I received the following e-mail (unsolicited by me) from:


From: Mike Farrell <vidhunter@hotmail.com>
Subject: Abductee Profile-Survey Analysis
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 19:39:53 PST
Cc: recipient list not shown: ;
X-Originating-IP: [198.142.136.112]
_______________________________________

PLEASE POST TO ALL UFO & ALIEN DISCUSSION LISTS!
_______________________________________

Feb.9.2000
Greetings UFO and Abduction Researchers,

Health professionals, therapists, and abductees take note! What
follows may surprise and disturb you, but if you fail to
consider this new evidence, then you are part of the problem,
not the solution!

Do you still consider yourself open-mined? The I challenge all
of you to read the following and respond with intelligence and
inquisitiveness!

This will be my final contribution to the infamous "GAY
ABDUCTEE" debate. I first presented this "taboo" subject for
discussion after reading the new book:

"The Abduction Enigma"-
The Truth behind the Mass Alien Abductions
of the Late 20th Century.(June 1999)
by Kevin D. Randle, Russ Estes, and William P. Cone, PHD.

The response to my innocent inquiry about this newly emerging
"abductee profile" has been most disturbing. My serious
inquiries into this delicate but important matter have been met
with accusations of starting a "gay" witchhunt. I have been
personally attacked for spreading disinformation and undermining
the progress of abduction research. I have listened to network
moderators, therapists, and abductees tell me in no uncertain
terms that the sexual preferences of abductees is none of
anybody's business and is also irrelevant to the research
efforts. I have been told to drop this subject by the very
researchers and professionals who should have the courage and
curiosity to explore this overlooked issue.

Why is everyone so AFRAID of even talking about "gay" abductees
and about sexual activity with "aliens"? It's the central isssue
of so-called "alien abductions" and yet no one wants to deal
with it. How convenient to ignore and dismiss NEW EVIDENCE just
because it's presented in a skeptical way.

Let's face it, folks, UFO and Abduction research is STUCK! How
can we expect to make progress in our understanding of what's
really happening here if we are unable or unwilling to look at
NEW EVIDENCE?

I am ashamed at the raging denial and stubborn ignorance of UFO
and Abduction Researchers, not only here in Australia, but also
evident in the replies on this issue from America and England.

The UFO Research Community is in grave danger of becoming
entrenched in upholding a status quo position at all costs, even
though that position is as fragile as a "house of cards"! Blind
faith in what we think we know is as crippling to UFO research
as it is to religious and political institutions.

WAKE UP, researchers!

Take your "blinders" off for a moment, if you dare, and have a
look at this report printed below from one of the well-known
authors, Kevin Randle. He describes exactly how they arrived at
the revelation that a large percentage of abductees are "gay"
and how this NEW EVIDENCE may contribute to our research
efforts.

Please let me stress that this survey was conducted in the USA
only. Wouldn't we all like to know the results of such a survey
collected from other countries? Perhaps then we could get a more
accurate picture of the worldwide "abductee profile". If this
new evidence proves to show that THE ABDUCTION PHENOMENON IS NOT
A RANDOM PROCESS, then what will further data along these lines
reveal about the true nature and purpose of "alien abductions"?

You be the judge and jury,
but have the decency to look at the new evidence!

_____________________

(KEVIN RANDLE WROTE:)

Hello Mike,

I was very saddened at your letter. It seems that these people
have taken, what to me and my fellow authors, is a rather
unimportant bit of information and turned it into a political
football. I stress again that we meant nothing pejorative by our
information and do not suggest and never thought that we were
labeling all abductees as homosexual. Nor did we think of this
as a way of smearing them so that the mainstream society would
ignore them.

Instead, we thought it odd that a trait, invisible to the eye,
would show up at such a disproportionate rate. We looked on it
as akin to having a rather rare blood type show up at rates six
to 30 times its presence in the general population. That is all
that we meant to convey.

I am also sadden that those who demand that we respect their
rights, who demand a fair hearing, can be so prejudiced themselves.
They misread the intent, label us as disinformation agents of the
USA government and run on to their next attack. I would have thought
that they would be more sensitive to unfounded allegations.

(HERE'S THE ANALYSIS):

To put it in deeper perspective, we interviewed nearly 500
abductees over a period of years, drawing as heavily as we could
on the entire population. The sampling was as random as we could
make it and the interivews were all conducted in a similar vein.
John Velez claims he just wants answers but the only answers he
wants are validation of his perceived experiences. To success a
more mundane explanation is to draw his ire. When we have
attempted to respond, factually, and carefully to his rants, he
attacks us misreading the replies and claiming things that we
never said.

And, to him, no one who isn't an abductee can talk to him
because only fellow abductees can understand. This is like
telling a doctor he can't treat your cancer because he has not
had cancer.

Following is a reply, also from UpDates that I think says it
very well. I have often thought that Velez has not read the book
and just reacts to what he thinks was said.

___________________

(John Velez wrote):

I'd just like to try to 'tie in' this conversation to the
original subject of this thread which is Randle & Estes'
outrageous claim that "60% of Abductees Are Gay." They claim to
have arrived at those figures by conducting some kind of
"abductee" survey/poll which no one seems to be questioning.

(reply):

Information on the "survey" is available in their book _The
Abduction Enigma_ by Kevin D. Randle, Russ Estes, and William P.
Cone, Ph.D.

We know from your past posts that you do not have a copy.
Therefore I have taken it upon myself to take up my copy, which
I have not read until now, and cursorily examine it for relevant
information.

     ...from the index:
B
     Bisexuality, 100. See also Sexual identity problems

C
     Childhood sexual abuse, 290

G
     Gay women, 292

H
     Homosexuality, 100-1, 292

S
     Sexual activities, 8, 91-101
     Sexual dysfunction, 101
     Sexual identity problems, 244, 290, 292
     Sexual repression, 301

V
     Velez, John, 57
[not relevant to topic but a pleasant referance]

... relevant quotes below....
__________________

(John Velez wrote):

The 'silence' from the Randle/Estes camp has been deafening! I
have asked repeatedly for information regarding 'how' this
"poll" was conducted, what _criteria_ was used to either include
or exclude a respondant, and then to find out _how_many_ alleged
"abductees" they polled. (The whole thing is a circular joke.
How do you 'poll' something you are claiming doesn't exist! -
UFO abduction victims -)

No response from Randle or his 'tag team' partner Russ Estes on
these all-important questions.

The fact that the statistic has been 'put out to the public'
without equal disclosure provided for the 'methods' used to
arrive at it, is an outrage and just plain sloppy (amateurish)
science. I like Stan Friedman's little 'tagger' "Science by
decree!" That's exactly what Randle and Estes are doing by
putting out a stat like that with no background info on how it
was arrived at.

----------------------------------------------------------------

****In this next section Randle just lifts 'wholesale'
(copy/paste) the text from the most recent post in the UpDates
thread, "60% of Abductees are Gay." The problem is, he's not
responding _to_ UpDates.

John Velez

----------------------------------------------------------------

To address the specifics of how Randle, Estes & Cone handled
their study:


p. 91 - Chapter 5 - The Sexual Component of Alien Abduction

"In the process of interviewing over a hundred people who claim
to be abductees, (quotation from book/original UpDates post is
snipped for brevity. JV)


p. 98 - same chapter

In setting up our protocols for the interview process, we added
questions on blatant sexuality, such as,  (quotation from book
/original UpDates post is snipped for brevity. JV)


With few exceptions nearly all of the people interviewed claimed
to be from dysfunctional families.  (quotation from book/original
UpDates post is snipped for brevity. JV)

p. 99 - same chapter

A very interesting fact about the interviews we conducted is
that when the people were asked  (quotation from book/original
UpDates post is snipped for brevity. JV)


p. 100 - same chapter

Nearly every person that we interviewed (quotation from
book/original UpDates post is snipped for brevity. JV)


p. 292 - Chapter 19 - Recovered Memories

  One estimate suggests that as many as 60 percent
of those claiming abduction are also gay. (quotation from
book/original UpDates post is snipped for brevity. JV)

<snip>

Anybody want to field this?

John Velez,

- Tired of having important issues swept under the rug. -

The previous post is not meant as endorsement of the findings
nor the methods. However I think this is yet another valuable
area for dialogue on the under-explored subject of ...

Abductee Demographics (see also):

(URLs that Stephen provided from the original UpDates post is
snipped for brevity. JV)

SMiles
------
Again, I appreciate your interest and your kindness. Maybe some
of those people will read the book and understand that we meant
it to help and that according to many of the letters we have
received we have accomplished just that.

Regards, Kevin Randle (co-author of "The Abduction Enigma"

----------------------------------------------------------------

That is the e-mail I received. If I may be allowed to respond on
the one and only list that I subscribe to, I beg your indulgence
a bit longer.  John Velez

----------------------------------------------------------------

To Kevin Randle:

Man to man:

Kevin, anything I've _ever_ had to say to you I have said on
UFO UpDates. In public, and out in the open. It affords you the
honest and fair opportunity to either ignore it, respond to it,
or otherwise defend yourself in any way you may wish to.

When you talk about me behind my back to strangers on a list I
do not subscribe to, you rob _me_  of my right to defend myself.
It's not fair. It demonstrates a _complete_ lack of 'character'
(balls) on your part and it is _not_ 'honorable' behavior by
anyones standards.

The 'good news' is... I don't have to take it laying down.

I'm not going to make my comments as personal as yours were
about me. My objective was to question the methods employed when
you 'polled' the abductees.

I'm more than a little pissed at you for the personal foul you
have committed against me. Let's take the 'high road.'

I _will_ ask you to clear up one or two 'little discrepancies'
though.

In your book it says:

"In the process of interviewing over a hundred people who claim
to be abductees, it has become painfully clear that sexuality is
a major part of abduction."

In your letter to (Mike) you say:


"To put it in deeper perspective, we interviewed nearly 500
abductees over a period of years, drawing as heavily as we could
on the entire population. The sampling was as random as we could
make it and the interivews were all conducted in a similar
vein."


So which is it Mr, Randle? 100 or 500? That's a _major_league_
discrepancy in the numbers. Can you 'document' just how many
"abductees" you interviewed?

Why the _large_ difference between the number provided in your
book and the one you quote to Mike?

If independent investigators were to re-interview your "500"
respondants, would they be able to replicate your results? If
you conducted your 'survey' in a 'scientific' manner then anyone
else should be able to _easily_ replicate (confirm) your
statistic.

You also wrote:

It seems that these people have taken, what to me and my fellow
authors, is a rather unimportant bit of information and turned
it into a political football.

Unimportant bit of information?!!!

You imply that 60% of all abductees (your words, not mine) are
either homosexuals or sexual disfunctionals and you call it "an
unimportant bit."

Geez Kevin, what color is the sky in -your- world?

Kevin, it's simple. If you are going to quote outrageous
statistics such as this one, the onus is _on you_ to
substantiate it! I see from your very 'personal' attack on me
that you can 'dish it out' but, 'you can't take it!'  ;)

Also, I have a _right_ to be here and question guys like you all
I want.

I have had fully conscious, multiple witness, _close-up_ UFO
encounters. Unlike yourself, I didn't get it all from 'books.'

You bet I'm going to challenge any and all comers who try to
throw lame theories and explanations at me about something I had
to live through! What does it say in your psychology books about
people who are so out of touch with themselves that they cannot
trust the information provided to them by their own senses? See
Kevin, I'm not one of those. I was there. I know what I saw, and
I remember what happened. After one particular incident I ended
up in an emergency room. Uncomfortably close encounters with
UFOs (where the whole event seems focused on you) and subsequent
trips to emergency rooms to treat the wounds received during the
event have a way of "staying with you." In fact, they cut deep
and reply themselves over and over in your head as your mind
struggles to 'fit it into the _known_ and the 'familiar.'

Oh, you bet I'm going to question you and anybody else who comes
down the pike talking through their hats about something they
cannot possibly hope to understand.

Unless you've been there you have no way to know how insulting
it is to have someone (who knows nothing other than what they've
read somewhere) tell you that you didn't see or experience what
you _know_ you saw and experienced. That's part of the
'humiliation' I have to put up with for reporting my experiences
to my fellow creatures.

This is all 'intellectual fun and games for you.' You get to
write books, give lectures, and run around calling yourself an
authority on UFOs. I (and many others) have to live with this on
a level you will _never_ understand.

BTW, if you want to 'play' scientist be ready to have your work
and your methods questioned. Contrary to your personal opinion,
everybody who disagrees with you does not have a 'woody' for
you. My questions have been honest and asked out in the open.

Aren't you ashamed that you cannot say the same about your
response to me?

100 or 500? Which is it Mr Randle.?

John Velez, No pushover

________________________________________________
                         AIC - Abduction Information Center -
                        www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                    jvif@spacelab.net
  "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________








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                    Re: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2)

From: Don Ecker <decker@ufomag.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 14:01:23 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 17:32:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2)


 >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 22:51:52 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2)
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 23:39:01 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <Alintelbot@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Cydonian Imperative: FAQ (part 2)
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >Although the Cydonia site seems to be the focus of many for
 >possible evidence of alien structures on Mars, it is not the
 >only one by far.  My favourite is the infrared image of Mars
 >taken by the Phobos 2 spaceprobe in 1989 which seems to reveal
 >an underground Martian city from its radiated heat.  Dr. John
 >Becklake of the London Science Museum is quoted as saying "The
 >city-like pattern is 60 kilometers wide and could be easily
 >mistaken for an aerial view of Los Angeles.".

Hello.

I broke the Soviet Phobos II probe story (with infrared UFO) on
the Larry King Live program in November of 1991. This program is
where I introduced the photograph of the 15 1/2 mile long
"object."

The measurment was according to the Russians.

You can see the photograph at the UFO Magazine website by going
to http://www.ufomag.com and once there, click on (at top of
page) Mars Anomalies are nothing new. This photograph was the
very last image sent back by the probe prior to its a.)
destruction or b.) its disappearance after sending the image
back to earth. The Russians at that time stated that the
"unknown" turned toward and then struck the Phobos II craft.

Don Ecker
UFO Magazine
Los Angeles, CA.
--

Don Ecker
http://www.strangedaze.net
http://www.ufomag.com 1-888-UFO-6242









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                       Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland

From: GT McCoyy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:54:46 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 17:36:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland


 >Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 23:19:27 +0100
 >From: Jeroen Kumeling <ufonet@xs4all.nl>
 >Subject: Ice From The Sky In Holland
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Hello listmembers,

 >There is  really a new phenomenon going on worldwide. I
 >heard today that some iceblocks also fell in Holland.

 >I hope I can report in a few hours about that.

 >Jeroen Kumeling
 >UFONET


I've just caught on to this, has anyone thought about airframe
ice from both large and small aircraft. I shed a huge chunk -50
lbs. or so _ from a Cessna 210 once and almost took out a VW bug
the Bug's owner thought it funny I didn't.

Also I was behind a DC-3?C-47? ( I was flying a Cessna of some
sort 182 it's been a long time) as the Doug was shedding ice I
was below and behind  at Boeing Field - I was getting whacked
until I pulled out of the Doug's trail.

Airframe Ice can last a long time and accumulate on parts of the
Aircraft that do not have De-Ice equip- ment, then the Aircraft
goes below the freezing level, and sheds its Ice.  By the way,
as  this phenom can ocurr  year 'round depending on the weather
con- -ditions the Aircraft was subjucted to. Just asking.

GT McCoy










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                            Re: The Eyes Have It

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 18:50:19 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 19:47:12 -0500
Subject: Re: The Eyes Have It


 >Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 21:38:31 -0500
 >From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com>
 >Subject: Re: The Eyes Have It
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>

 >>>From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com>

 >>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>

 >>>>Now, Mr. Randle and Mr. Klass and Mr. or Ms. Whomever, go ahead
 >>>>and tell me it never happened. Tell me I'm gay, or that I am
 >>>>having a waking dream or one of those sleep disorder thingies,
 >>>>sleep paralysis or whatever.

 >>>You obviously have some serious objections to the approach that
 >>>Kevin Randle and others have taken, but there is a middle ground
 >>>that both sides have prematurely dismissed as if by mutual
 >>>consent: That at least some Alien Abduction Experiences are most
 >>>likely taking place during a period of Awareness during Sleep
 >>>Paralysis, ASP.

 >>having experienced sleep paralysis about thrice (from my
 >>recall), I am saying that some of my perceived alien abduction
 >>experiences have not likely taken place during a period of
 >>awareness during sleep paralysis.

 >Does that mean (as it seems to imply) that some of your
 >perceived alien abduction experiences *have* likely taken place
 >during a period of awareness during sleep paralysis?

Joe Polanik wrote:

 >>>That at least some Alien Abduction Experiences are most
 >>>likely taking place during a period of Awareness during Sleep
 >>>Paralysis, ASP.

Jim Mortellaro (that's me) responded:

 >>... I am saying that some of my perceived alien abduction
 >>experiences have not likely taken place during a period of
 >>awareness during sleep paralysis.

Which was meant to be a direct response to your direct question.
As I did not answer it appropriately, I will answer it now. (I
was being sarcastic - innappropriately so)....

To the best of my recall, no, none of my perceived abduction or
other experiences relating to alien sightings, UFO sightings or
other events (of which the abduction experience is not exclusive
by any means) took place during the three or so experiences of
sleep paralysis, nor did they take place during sleep paralysis
or what I recognized as such.

 >>I've experienced two types of sleep paralysis. The first is
 >>simply being paralyised and unable to do anything but breathe
 >>and move my eyes. There was no halucinatory factor to the
 >>experience.

 >>During the second type, I exhibited a freightening dream/reality
 >>during which I felt an unknown presence in the room which I
 >>perceived as being malevolent but which I was not able to
 >>recognize. Clearly this was halucinatory and extremely
 >>freightening because of it's 'unknown" factor.
 >
 >Did you recognize it as hallucinatory at the time or only after
 >you woke up?

I did not recognize it as hallunitory at the time it was taking
place. However the event was completely different from any
perceived abduction experience, during which I am completely
aware of what is happening.  I know what one is while it is
occuring but I do not always recognize a dream as being one as I
am having it.  This includes the sleep paralysis during which I
was in nightmare modality.

However, the statistical representation of three such episodes,
recognized over 53 years is not a meaningful number.  Having
said that, the statistical average of literally hundreds of perceived
abduction experiences, recognized as such while they are occuring
_is_ meaningful.


 >>Neither has or had anything whatever to do with my perceived
 >>abduction experiences. When this begins, I've been there before,
 >>I recognize (often) the players, I am not paralysed in the same
 >>manner

 >In what manner were you paralyzed?

 >Joe


Joseph, paralysed is paralysed.  I was able to breath.  This was
my very first thought as I woke up paralysed.  I said to myself,
I said, "Oh sh*t, I can't move.  Uh, wait.... can I breath?"

I was completely awake, wide bloody awake, but unable to move a
muscle.  I do not recall if that included my eyes, which I can
generally move during a perceived experience.

When I determined that I was able to breath the initial panic
lessened.  I then began to be able to move.  When I told my mom
what had happened she did _not_ say, "Oh, that was just a
dream!" She _did_ say, "That happens sometimes, even to me.
It's just something that happens sometimes as you are waking
up."

Which is important because she also, made the distinction
between the two events on my behalf from her own experience.

I hope this answers your questions.  Actually, it should not, in
all seriousness, it  should create only more unanswered
questions.

Jim Mortellaro








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               Re: Mysteries of the New Millennium Convention

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:33:30 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 22:52:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Mysteries of the New Millennium Convention


 >Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 15:50:02 +0000
 >From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
 >Subject: Mysteries of the New Millennium Convention
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Discovery UK and the British Paranormal Fortean Society are
 >proud to present

What is the British Pranormal Fortean Society? I'm British,
slightly Fortean, not in the least paranormal, but I've never
heard of it. More information please, Mr Mantle.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                       Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland

From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 01:32:54 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 22:54:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland


 >Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 23:19:27 +0100
 >From: Jeroen Kumeling <ufonet@xs4all.nl>
 >Subject: Ice From The Sky In Holland
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Hello listmembers,

 >There is  really a new phenomenon going on worldwide. I
 >heard today that some iceblocks also fell in Holland.

 >I hope I can report in a few hours about that.


De Telegraaf had it today (tuesday) on the front page. Is this
worldwide? I have heard of similar reports from Italy and Spain
only. All European countries.

Groeten,

Henny







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                  Info/Theories Of Possible Alien Moonbase?

From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@netzero.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 19:20:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 23:02:59 -0500
Subject: Info/Theories Of Possible Alien Moonbase?


Where could I get some of the theories or stories about the moon
possibly being hollow or harboring aliens? I would like to use
this as a topic for one of my shows. Thanks.

Stefan Duncan
5396 Sumac Circle
Fayetteville, N.C. 28304
ICQ 11878618
(910) 425-2976

Stefan Duncan Talk Show

To listen go to our website for our station number and click for
a Previewnet player to listen. from 8 p.m. to 10 p.m. weeknights

http://maxpages.com/stefanduncan
AUFON-XPI
http://www.aufon.com

Join AUFON_XPI mailing list just click
aufon_xpi-subscribe@eGroup.com

The Stefan Duncan Show
Talkshow from 8 p.m. to 10 p.m. weeknights









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                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 21:34:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 23:10:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 20:21:26 -0800
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 12:06:20 -0400
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 18:49:10 +1300 (NZDT)
 >>>From: Murray Bott <murrayb@win.co.nz>
 >>>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>>To: Updates List <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Dr. Bland had noted that if TS Control Numbers had been required
 >>on all TS documents, we would still be fighting WW 2.

 >As pointed to Stan Friedman before, the above statement bears no
 >relevance to whether or not TS control numbers were used by the
 >Department of Defense on TS documents under their control after
 >WWII during the Truman and Eisenhower years, a documented fact.


Too bad that Ed Stewart and Bob Todd have conveniently forgotten
that Robert Cutler worked at the White House. He was a special
assistant to the President.

He was not at the DOD. Two of the TOP SECRET items (Pages B-4
and B-5, in my autographed "Final Report on Operation Majestic
12") were directly from Robert Cutler, Special Assistant to the
President, to the Secretary of Defense and to General Twining.

Both were found at the Library oif Congress Manuscript Division
in the Twining papers and are therefore under the rules of the
White House (The Originating Agency) and not the DOD.

I have consistently noted that the Cutler Twining Memo (from the
White House office of Robert Cutler) was obviously planted in
Box 189 of Entry 267 of RG 321.

The originating agency establishes the Security markings. Not
the receiving agency.

I repeat Cutler worked in the Executive Branch of the government
at the White House.

He issued at least 2 top secret items which wound up in the
files of General Twining. Neither has a TS Control number.. As a
matter of fact when they were first discovered neither had been
stamped declassified, though that box had been released .. as
happens occasionally.

There was quite a reaction from a staff person when at my
instruction she obtained them from the box (Maybe #120), brought
them into her office for some Japanese cameramen, and suddenly
realized they still said TOP SECRET. She immediately grabbed a
declassified stamp and applied it several times to each.

These two clearly establish that it was the policy of Robert
Cutler at the White House _not_ to use (at least some of the
time) a TS Control number, Ed Stewart and Bob Todd
notwithstanding and despite their expertise in such matters..
Though as I recall Todd's expertise is of the armchair variety
never having been at an archive.

Case closed.

The absence of a TS control number on the Cutler Twining memo,
and the Truman Forrestal Memo and the EBD (Recall that Truman
also was at the White House and Hillenkoetter when he was DCI
was part of the Executive Branch _not_ the DOD) does _not_
establish these items as frauds.

Stan Friedman










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                  Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 20:03:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 23:15:04 -0500
Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip


 >From: James Easton
 >Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 01:19:38 +0000
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 16:53:49 -0500
 >Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

Previously, I had written:

 >>...AA presents no technological challenges that had not already
 >>been solved thirty years ago when Stan was just another effects
 >>person trying to land "the big job". It's basically a sculpt,
 >>cast and paint sort of effects job;

James replied:

 >That's a sweeping statement which fails to take into account
 >some material you're possibly not aware of.

<snip>

 >What became evident is that when examined in detail, some of the
 >visible special effects were difficult to explain, especially
 >concerning the 'scalp removal' sequence.

<snip>

 >And there is yet another problem with the head part of the
 >film. When the doctor is peeling back the frontal part of the
 >scalp, he pulls so hard that the head lifts up off the table.
 >If you rewind it you can see the nurse put her weight into it.
 >So this is some strong material used for skin.  That's no
 >problem I suppose except for one detail. As the skin pulls
 >loose it is wet under there.  Now there is no break in the
camera during this to "dress" the skin as Trey says. It's wet
when it comes loose.

 >How did they do that? How did the get it to stick hat well,
 >and still be wet?  And also, the skin shows an elastic quality
 >when the doctor lets it go after pulling on it. But it doesn't
 >snap back like rubber, it oozes back. Does that sound like
 >silicon? Is silicone strong enough to yank on it like he does?

 >Anyone know how this is done?"

Hi, James.

If you've ever seen how pottery or plaster figures are created
from rubber molds, then you will have witnessed the solution to
the problem of how to get the skull into the AA head.

In essence, the outer skin of the alien forms the "jacket" into
which resin or plaster or lead or the like is poured in from the
back side to form the skull. But first the inside of the
"jacket" is coated with a viscous releasing agent.

This could be KY with color or dye mixed in, or molasass or
honey or syrup or any slimey product that doesn't have a
petroleum base since that would attack the latex mold/skin of
the jacket.

Once the pour is complete, it is allowed to harden, after which
it will act as the central core or "skull" of the alien. When
the skin is cut away on camera, the "wetness" seen is actually
the releasing agent. It will be sticky enough to adhear the skin
to the skull but not so much that it won't let go.

In short, it acts just like a nice layer of blood might in such
a situation.

I wish I could say that I invented this but it really is old,
old technology.

I was not aware of the previous discussion about this and am,
frankly, very surprised that Stan didn't offer the insight on
such an old technique. Then again, controversy keeps people
talking a lot longer. Perhaps if a solution had been offered
early on, we wouldn't still be talking about Stan! ;)

I have yet to see anything in AA that hasn't been done before
and better.


Take care,

Roger Evans

MovieStuff, Houston TX










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                       Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland

From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 20:26:59 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 23:17:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland


Dear Jeroen:

I would greatly appreciate any information you can
send me on the ice-fall in the Netherlands.  If possible,
please send me the English translation of the text of
the actual newspaper articles.  Be sure to list the name
of the newspaper the articles appeared in, the date that
edition of the newspaper was published, and the city in
which it was published.

Thanks for alerting me to the situation.

Best Wishes,

Joe Trainor








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                       Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland

From: Jeroen Kumeling <ufonet@xs4all.nl>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 03:24:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 23:19:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland


The Ice-cube was found in a back-garden in Groningen (nothern
Holland).

It was frozen clear drinking water. So... it was a hoax.

Jeroen Kumeling










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                       Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 20:46:30 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:09:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland


 >Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 01:32:54 +0100 (MET)
 >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl>
 >Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 23:19:27 +0100
 >>From: Jeroen Kumeling <ufonet@xs4all.nl>
 >>Subject: Ice From The Sky In Holland
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Hello listmembers,

 >>There is  really a new phenomenon going on worldwide. I
 >>heard today that some iceblocks also fell in Holland.

 >>I hope I can report in a few hours about that.

 >De Telegraaf had it today (tuesday) on the front page. Is this
 >worldwide? I have heard of similar reports from Italy and Spain
 >only. All European countries.


It's been happening here in Canada, too - in Surrey, BC (near
Vancouver where I live) and Ottawa, Ontario. See the two recent
news items on these (previously posted a few days ago to this
list in TMP News) on the News and Reports page of my web site
for The Millennium Project:

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

Paul Anderson

_____________

Paul Anderson

Founder / Director
THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

Director
CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA
Circles Phenomenon Research International
http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada

Representative
BLT RESEARCH, INC.
http://www.bltresearch.net

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue, Vancouver, BC  V6J 1J4  Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca









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                               Books Going...

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 16:52:18 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:23:35 -0500
Subject: Books Going...


Hi All,

I am having a book sort out, if anyone would like a copy of my
List along with prices please e-mail me privately.

Regards,

Roy..








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                The British National UFO Research Association

From: Tim Mathews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 18:13:33 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 07:18:02 -0500
Subject: The British National UFO Research Association


Dear UpDates,

Although the rebirth of objective British Ufology has been
delayed for a week things are now back on schedule.

A group of us have formed the National UFO Research Association
(NUFORA) and the launch takes place on Saturday 4th March at the
Patten Arms Hotel, Parker Street, Warrington, Cheshire (UK) -
opposite Bank Quay railway station - from 11am to 8pm approx.

The launch forms part of a wide ranging event featuring
information on paranormal, psychic and UFO activity featuring a
host of speakers.

Tickets cost just �5.

A mass mailing of some 2,000 people is planned and will take
place over the next few months as funds allow.

NUFORA is a membership organisation. For just �10 a year a
member receives six informative bi-monthly newsletters and
membership is given on the understanding that the fee supports
UFO research and investigation. Members do not have voting
rights, cannot sit on committees and cannot, by right, affect
NUFORA policy. Nevertheless, an AGM will be held whereby members
are invited to attend in order to express their opinions. Our
success is dependent upon their continued support.

Members may also apply to join our new Members Only Forum on
onelist.com. There are two other NUFORA lists - for
investigators and for the organiser's group.

These are already in operation.

You are encouraged to participate and NUFORA General Secretary
Carolyn Buckley awaits your enquiry;

cosmiccarrie@hotmail.com

NUFORA is an objective research association dedicated to the
highest standards of investigation; investigators will be
required to attend an initial training day in mid-May, will be
required to attend subsequent follow-up days, to sit a simple
initial examination and to read books from the NUFORA list. They
will be issued with a yearly "license" which can be withdrawn
should he/she not comply fully with the NUFORA Code of Conduct.

NUFORA aims to train a new generation of UFO researchers...

The Director of Training is Steve Mera - whose work is both
well-known and well-respected in the UK. His British
Investigators Training Course (BITC) is the foundation for
NUFORA R+I activities and is based upon an earlier course
designed in 1976.

Gloria Dixon has very kindly agreed to assist us in training NUFORA
investigators and will speak at the May event.

Research into the Paranormal will also be encouraged and similar
standards will be put in place. (In any case, the parallels
between UFO and Paranormal cases are very blurred.)

Despite the fact that these are early days, many of us feel that
the time has come to strike out and work on our own in
cooperation with other objective researchers. We all believe
that we have what it takes to revolutionise the way in which
Ufology is practised both here and abroad.

These are _not_ the usual empty promises and rhetoric to which
many of us have become accustomed - we are known for our ability
to carry things through, to produce the best work and to
generate vital public interest in the subject.

You may be interested to know who is already on board:

President - Philip Mantle
General Secretary - Carolyn Buckley
Press and Media Liaison - Tim Matthews
Collator - Eric Morris
Director of Training - Steve Mera and team
Director of Investigations - TBA (watch this space!)
Educational Outreach - Lynda Matthews
Newsletter - Brenda and Heather Wilkinson

A list of consultants will be released soon but for now, the
names of local investigators.

Cheshire/N. Wales - Carolyn Buckley, Dave Kelly and Eric Morris
Lancashire - Lynda Matthews, Jason Carradus
Greater Manchester - Steve Mera and team
Cumbria - Chris Parr
North Midlands - Roy Bennett
Yorkshire - Philip Mantle

There are several more in the pipeline!

Elements of the media are onto the story already and we look
forward to working with them. Several TV companies will be
attending the Warrington event and Tim Matthews is working with
another on a documentary about Real UFO Researchers.

NUFORA has the full support of 'Quest and Astronomer' magazine -
the revamped UK monthly -  and intends to engage with the
scientific community whenever possible. We are already aware of
several academics interested in privately assisting us.

A major "earth lights" research project is scheduled for this
Summer and will be undertaken in conjunction with Roger Markman
of the Bacup UFO Centre.

NUFORA will, of course, be a politics free association and we
encourage you to help us push back the boundaries of knowledge
and to fight for a New Ufology in the New Millennium.

Our time has come....

Please feel free to contact us;

National UFO Research Association,
c/o/ Eric Morris,
78 Greenall Road,
NORTHWICH
Cheshire UK,
CW9 5RN.

Thank you,

Tim Matthews - Press Officer, National UFO Research Association.

see our temporary website at;

www.angelfire.com/sd/NUFORA/index.html


(NUFORA will not discriminate against people on the basis of religion, race
or political belief. NUFORA will not allow political/racial/religious
extremists of any sort to join or to attend meetings.)















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                Re: Info/Theories Of Possible Alien Moonbase?

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 23:49:05 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 07:33:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Info/Theories Of Possible Alien Moonbase?


 >Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 19:20:06 -0500
 >From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@netzero.net>
 >Subject: Info/Theories Of Possible Alien Moonbase?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Where could I get some of the theories or stories about the
 >moon possibly being hollow or harboring aliens? I would like
 >to use this as a topic for one of my shows. Thanks.

One good book that discusses this area is "Penetration" by Ingo
Swann.  Check out the following URL for info:

http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/PenetrationOrdering.html

-Brian C.







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                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 21:49:46 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 07:38:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 21:34:15 -0400
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 20:21:26 -0800
 >>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Too bad that Ed Stewart and Bob Todd have conveniently forgotten
 >that Robert Cutler worked at the White House. He was a special
 >assistant to the President.

This is another ruse and deception that Friedman keeps
perpetrating on the UFO community. No one has "conveniently
forgotten" who Robert Cutler was, who he worked for and where he
worked at. It is simply not relevant. Robert Cutler was not
found in RG341, an Air Force record group. The alleged
Cutler-Twining memo was and it was the procedure of the Air
Force at the time (documented fact) to use document control
numbers on Top Secret documents that came under their control.
Where Robert Cutler had  his morning cup of coffee is simply not
relevant, never was relevant, and never will be relevant.

 >He was not at the DOD.

So what? What is the relevance? The document was allegedly found
by Moore-Shandera in RG 341 an Air Force record group, not in
the White House, not in the Library of Congress, not anywhere
but in an Air Force record group. That is what is relevant,
always has been relevant, and always will be relevant.

 >Two of the TOP SECRET items (Pages B-4
 >and B-5, in my autographed "Final Report on Operation Majestic
 >12") were directly from Robert Cutler, Special Assistant to the
 >President, to the Secretary of Defense and to General Twining.

Does your autograph make your report more legitimate?

 >Both were found at the Library oif Congress Manuscript Division
 >in the Twining papers and are therefore under the rules of the
 >White House (The Originating Agency) and not the DOD.

So what? What does this have to do with the alleged
Cutler-Twining memo found in RG 341 and therefore under the
control of the DOD?

 >I have consistently noted that the Cutler Twining Memo (from the
 >White House office of Robert Cutler) was obviously planted in
 >Box 189 of Entry 267 of RG 321.

That is RG 341, not RG 321. And it is obvious that it was
planted __after__ the dual review team went through their
classification procedures. If it had been found by the review
team, it would have gone through their declassification review
and since it was an NSC document that obviously did not belong
there, it would have been forwarded to the NSC for
declassification review since neither the Air Force nor the
Archives had such authority. There is nothing to indicate the
Air Force/Archives review team ever saw the document during
their review declassification of RG 341. Moore-Shandera were the
first to view RG 341 after the review teams finished their job
where all of a sudden here pops up the Cutler-Twining memo. Gee,
Mr. Archives person, look what I found! Hello? Anybody home?

 >The originating agency establishes the Security markings. Not
 >the receiving agency.

Excuse me. What does the original security determination have to
do with ensuing control procedures by the receiving agencies?
Nothing, and if Stanton Friedman had any kind of knowledge about
security procedures he would understand the difference. There is
no dispute that the alleged originating agency/owner determines
the classification of the alleged document. But it is up to the
receiving agency to protect and control their received copy
according to the control procedures in place. It is obvious that
Stanton Friedman either doesn't know the difference or is
deliberately attempting a deception by introducing a ruse in
desperation. Either way, it displays the low level of Stanton
Freidman's alleged expertise on such matters.

 >I repeat Cutler worked in the Executive Branch of the government
 >at the White House.

And Mickey Mouse worked at Disneyland. So what? Neither statement is of
relevance. The memo was allegedly
found by your co-researchers in a record group belonging to the Air
Force, not the White House, not Disneyland. Hello? Anybody home?

 >He issued at least 2 top secret items which wound up in the
 >files of General Twining. Neither has a TS Control number.. As a
 >matter of fact when they were first discovered neither had been
 >stamped declassified, though that box had been released .. as
 >happens occasionally.

Conveniently, Stanton Friedman neglects to mention that they
were _not_ found in RG 341 and therefore not relevant to this
discussion. By the way, as point of reference, the research team
of Moore-Shandera-Freidman are on record going through the
papers/schedule of General Twining as early as 1980, four years
before the alleged appearance of the MJ-12 documents and seven
years before their revelation to the rest of the UFO community.
Consequently, any claims by Friedman that the MJ-12 papers
presented "new" information related to Twining is completely
false since the Twining papers were declassified when the
research team of Moore-Shandera-Freidman went through them in
1980.

 >There was quite a reaction from a staff person when at my
 >instruction she obtained them from the box (Maybe #120), brought
 >them into her office for some Japanese cameramen, and suddenly
 >realized they still said TOP SECRET. She immediately grabbed a
 >declassified stamp and applied it several times to each.

So what? Why introduce a distraction that has nothing to do with
the Cutler-Twining memo?

 >These two clearly establish that it was the policy of Robert
 >Cutler at the White House _not_ to use (at least some of the
 >time) a TS Control number, Ed Stewart and Bob Todd
 >notwithstanding and despite their expertise in such matters.

What does it have to do with a document under the control of the
Department of Defense? That is the issue. Always has been the
issue. The answer is _nothing_.

 >Though as I recall Todd's expertise is of the armchair variety
 >never having been at an archive.

You don't know that. Then again, you have maintained over and
over again that entering archives makes one an expert. Your
writings and posturing on security classifications have
demonstrated that you have no expertise on such matters. By
inference, visiting archives is no guarantee of an education on
such matters. Obviously, having visited multiple archives has
not helped you, or helped you gain any relevant knowledge.

 >Case closed.

It has been closed for almost a decade now to the rest of the
world. Where have you been?

 >The absence of a TS control number on the Cutler Twining memo,
 >and the Truman Forrestal Memo and the EBD (Recall that Truman
 >also was at the White House and Hillenkoetter when he was DCI
 >was part of the Executive Branch _not_ the DOD) does _not_
 >establish these items as frauds.

You are the only one that has interpreted my comments to say
that. I have always maintained that it indicates  either a
breach of security or that the documents were bogus. What part
of _either or_ are you unable to understand. Friedman wants the
world to believe on one hand that MJ-12 existed and was the most
secret of all programs, yet the documents involved used no known
security control procedures in protecting the alleged secret
even though the alleged members were all knowledgeable and
versed on proper security procedures. Hello? Anybody home?

Ed Stewart
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
    Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -----









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   Feb > Feb 10

                 Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell & Gripple

From: Allen Loper <cheepnis@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 02:11:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 07:45:17 -0500
Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell & Gripple


 >Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 20:08:31 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell & Gripple
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:42:43 -0500
 >>From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >>Subject: Re: TV Producers and Joe Nickell & Gripple
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Dear Jim,

<snip>

 >>Besides, Gripple has been my main line of alien defence for
 >>years. I stack the empties under the windows and in front of the
 >>doors. That'll catch 'em.

<snip>

 >Thank you.  I knew you were as corrupted a my old Tandy
 >1000TX hard drive, but I was ashamed to admit it until you
 >fessed up to erring over good booze. Anyone who admits to
 >being wrong wears a white hat in my book.  I wear a white
 >hat too, however I also get to eat it every once in a while.


I have a fresh bottle of dills in the fridge if u prefer... and
lotsa gripple on ice.

k

�Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.�

--Arthur C. Clarke

http://www.mindspring.com/~cheepnis









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                Re: Westerbork & Lovell End Search For Lander

From: Jeroen Kumeling <ufonet@xs4all.nl>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:40:08 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 07:49:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Westerbork & Lovell End Search For Lander

Source:

MEDIA OFFICE
ASTRON � Netherlands Foundation for Research in Astronomy
Dwingeloo, The Netherlands
Telephone (+31) 521 595 223
http://www.astron.nl

WESTERBORK AND LOVELL TELESCOPES COMPLETE THE SEARCH FOR THE
LANDER

February 7, 2000

Dwingeloo, The Netherlands, Manchester, United Kingdom, and
Pasadena, Calif. USA - The Westerbork Telescope (WSRT) in The
Netherlands and the University of Manchester�s Lovell Telescope
in the United Kingdom are preparing for a second set of
observations on Tuesday, February 8, to round off the search for
the missing Mars Polar Lander. A second round of observations is
required in order to eliminate remaining uncertainty on the
operational status of the batteries of the Lander. The
observations will consist again of two transmissions lasting
half an hour each with a two-hour cooling-down period in
between. NASA has already initiated the command procedure for
this experiment using the Deep Space Network (DSN).

NASA mission managers theorize that the lander may be in a
different configuration than expected. As a result, last
Friday's command sequence sent by the NASA Deep Space Network
may not have been received or executed by the Lander. This
eventuality will be checked in the observational sequence of
Tuesday.

The experiments of last Friday, February 4, have not been
completely conclusive. Both telescopes have operated optimally
throughout the experiments. The observational data from the
Westerbork and Jodrell Bank Observatories have been analysed
extensively but no coincidences have been found in the data
suggesting transmissions from the Polar Lander. Only signals
that occur in the data streams of both telescopes could be
considered to originate from Mars. The two telescopes have a
similar sensitivity for detecting signals from the Lander. Thus
far all detected signals are thought to be of a terrestrial
origin. Exhaustive analysis of the new data obtained in the
Tuesday experiment will take at least until the end of the week,
after which more definite conclusions about the state of the
Lander will be made.

Both telescopes have used pulsar detection instruments during
all observations. At Westerbork the PuMa instrument is a
collaborative effort of ASTRON, and the Universities of Utrecht
and Amsterdam. The high speed data acquisition system and data
processing cluster used in the Lovell Telescope observations was
funded by the Particle Physics and Astronomy Research Council
(PPARC) of the United Kingdom.

The Westerbork Synthesis Radio Telescope (WSRT) is operated by
ASTRON, the Netherlands Foundation for Research in Astronomy,
and is financed by NWO, the Netherlands Organisation for
Scientific Research.

The 76m Lovell Telescope is located at the Jodrell Bank
Observatory of the University of Manchester and is part of the
Department of Physics and Astronomy.

Mars Polar Lander is managed by the the Jet Propulsion
Laboratory of NASA�s Office of Space Sceince, Washington, D .C.
Lockheed Martin Astronautics Inc, Denver, Colo., is the agency�s
industrail partner for development and operation of the
spacecraft. JPL is a division of the California Institute of
Technology, Pasadena, Calif.

MEDIA OFFICE
ASTRON � Netherlands Foundation for Research in Astronomy
Dwingeloo, The Netherlands
Telephone (+31) 521 595 223
http://www.astron.nl









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   Feb > Feb 10

                       Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:06:15 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 07:55:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland


 >Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 01:32:54 +0100 (MET)
 >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl>
 >Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 23:19:27 +0100
 >>From: Jeroen Kumeling <ufonet@xs4all.nl>
 >>Subject: Ice From The Sky In Holland
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Hello listmembers,

 >>There is  really a new phenomenon going on worldwide. I
 >>heard today that some iceblocks also fell in Holland.

 >>I hope I can report in a few hours about that.

 >De Telegraaf had it today (tuesday) on the front page. Is this
 >worldwide? I have heard of similar reports from Italy and Spain
 >only. All European countries.


The only realistic non-hoax explanation I've seen reported so
far is that of Ed McCoy, who noted that ice frequently
accumulates and then falls off airplanes.  However, if that is
the ice source, such reports should not be anything new. This
should have been going on for some time, and not just have
started in the past month or two.

If it is ice off planes, what we may see is simply the power of
the internet bringing the phenomenon out of obscurity and into
the public eye.  But if this is a truly new phenomenon with no
significant past history, I'd doubt the ice-off-planes theory is
the answer.

Does anyone on the list have a feel for whether there's any
significant reported past history to such ice falls (ie, prior
to those in Spain) ?

-Brian C.








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                       Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:49:39 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 07:59:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland


 >Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:54:46 -0800
 >From: GT McCoyy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 23:19:27 +0100
 >>From: Jeroen Kumeling <ufonet@xs4all.nl>
 >>Subject: Ice From The Sky In Holland
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Hello listmembers,

 >>There is  really a new phenomenon going on worldwide. I
 >>heard today that some iceblocks also fell in Holland.

 >>I hope I can report in a few hours about that.

 >>Jeroen Kumeling
 >>UFONET

 >I've just caught on to this, has anyone thought about airframe
 >ice from both large and small aircraft. I shed a huge chunk -50
 >lbs. or so _ from a Cessna 210 once and almost took out a VW bug
 >the Bug's owner thought it funny I didn't.

 >Also I was behind a DC-3?C-47? ( I was flying a Cessna of some
 >sort 182 it's been a long time) as the Doug was shedding ice I
 >was below and behind  at Boeing Field - I was getting whacked
 >until I pulled out of the Doug's trail.

 >Airframe Ice can last a long time and accumulate on parts of the
 >Aircraft that do not have De-Ice equip- ment, then the Aircraft
 >goes below the freezing level, and sheds its Ice.  By the way,
 >as  this phenom can ocurr  year 'round depending on the weather
 >con- -ditions the Aircraft was subjucted to. Just asking.


Hello GT:

I iced up the sides of an Oldsmobile driving across Quebec once!
That was a new experience for me, I live in California.

The driver's side door was iced shut, and I had to force it
open. There was no snow or ice on the ground, it was a
combination of speed, dew point etc. etc. I suppose.

I imagine its a real problem for aircraft especially, but
perfectly natural given the right conditions.

Best

- Larry Hatch

- - - - - - -








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                Re: Info/Theories Of Possible Alien Moonbase?

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:04:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:28:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Info/Theories Of Possible Alien Moonbase?


 >Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 19:20:06 -0500
 >From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@netzero.net>
 >Subject: Info/Theories Of Possible Alien Moonbase?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Where could I get some of the theories or stories about the moon
 >possibly being hollow or harboring aliens? I would like to use
 >this as a topic for one of my shows. Thanks.


Stefan:

You might be interested in taking note of a particularly odd
newspaper article from the 60's, which quotes a famous
Cincinnati meteorologist that was an acquaintance of the late
pot-smoking Carl Sagan.

Sagan, who was "high" on the list of CSICOP's 'Top Ten' skeptics
in a recent edition of "Skeptical Inquirer," was said to have
served as "Adviser onT Extra-Terrestrial life for the Armed
Services" in the sixties [Hmmm... was this a real position - and
if so, why would the "Armed Services" need such an adviser?
Perhaps they wanted to nuke them martian microbes?]

Evidently, when Carl was not inhaling, he was making outlandish
comments on the side - as he reportedly did to one Frank Pierce.
Carl was said to have told Pierce: "We must assume that they
[UFOs] have bases on the other said of the Moon."

I brought this to the attention of the list before, but
shucks... it's a good head scratcher. The newspaper article is
located at:    http://home.fuse.net/ufo/sagan.html

We know where Carl got his inspiration... I wonder where he got
his supply?

Kenny Young
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/









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                Re: Info/Theories Of Possible Alien Moonbase?

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:59:12 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:31:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Info/Theories Of Possible Alien Moonbase?


 >Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 19:20:06 -0500
 >From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@netzero.net>
 >Subject: Info/Theories Of Possible Alien Moonbase?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Where could I get some of the theories or stories about the moon
 >possibly being hollow or harboring aliens? I would like to use
 >this as a topic for one of my shows. Thanks.

Hi Stefan.

There are many stories about our Moon being hollow, similar to
an empty egg shell for example, and many more stories about our
Moon having harboured aliens or E.T. beings.

The stories about our Moon being hollow are in the realm of bad
science fiction since there are many physical reasons why this
would be impossible for our Moon or even desirable for the
aliens.  Stories about aliens having visited or occupied the
Moon in the past or present is another matter altogether.  What
you are proposing to discuss are two very different topics which
just happen to be at opposite ends with regards to scientific
credibility.

There are scientists like Alexey Arkhipov in the Ukraine that
hope to answer this second question over the next couple of
years through their Lunar SETI research.  Carl Sagan too
considered it very possible that aliens may have visited the
Earth (and Moon) in the past and that our historical records may
have evidence to support this.

Nick Balaskas










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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 6

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:34:29 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:34:28 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 6


      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 5, Number 6
February 10, 2000
Editor: Joseph Trainor

Masinaigan@aol.com

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/

RESEARCHERS CLOSE IN
ON ARGENTINE CRASH SITE

      Researchers have pinpointed the suspected
crash site of the huge mysterious "fireball" that
crashed on Tuesday, January 25, 2000 in northern
Argentina.  And strange reports continue to come
out of the area.
      "At a ranch around 70 kilometers (42 miles) away
from Charata, on the border between Chaco and
Santiago (del Estero) provinces, there exists eyewitness
evidence of the location where the alleged unidentified
object fell last week, enveloped in flames."
      "The radius covering the locales of Tintina, Otumpa,
Sachayoj and Chaco could be the probable location of
the resting place of the object that crashed."
      The Argentinian newspaper Diario Norte discovered
that the rural area is owned by a farming business
called La Mensa.  There is also a Mennonite farm
colony nearby.
      Diario Norte "obtained eyewitness accounts from
local residents giving their own version of the event,
thus making it largely credible given the down-to-
earth nature of these local residents."
      One witness, Juan Carlos Leguizamon, said
many residents "set off to find the object but were
unsuccessful in locating it."
      Leguizamon told the newspaper of strange
military activity in the area around Chacara.
      "'However, when the situation occurred,'
Leguizamon said, 'a sound like a jet airplane
was heard, and explosions like a burst of
machine gun fire.  But all we saw was the smoke
a few kilometers away from us.'"
      "On our tour of La Mensa and the Mennonite
colony," the newspaper reported, "there was no
visible trace of the object's fall.  But during each
interview, every utterance by the locals always
contains the possibility of the presence of the
strange 'fireball' that altered their easygoing
lifestyle."
      "The locals further indicated that the Santiago
del Estero (provincial) police were also in the
vicinity but without confirming the reason for their
presence there."
      Scientific teams have also scoured the rugged
canyons and subtropical rain forest of this region,
also known as La Esperanza, for the past week
with no success.
      The situation "indicates a certain silence among
the owners of the field as well as the authorities
responsible for searching the area."
      "The area has proved to be a great hardship to
the baqueanos (hunting guides--J.T.) since it is
densely forested with large canyons and vegetation
that provide a barrier to movement."  (See the
Argentinian newspaper Diario Norte for Tuesday,
February 1, 2000.  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales,
autor del libro Chupacabras and Other Mysteries, and
Gloria H. Coluchi para esa historia.)
(Editor's Comment:  This is beginning to look more
and more like another Varginha case.  Note the
report of military jets and automatic weapons fire.
The role of the Policia Provincial appears to have been
to keep the civilian population away from the area.
Did a NATO strike team dash into Argentina for a
hasty retrieval?  Was it a saucer crash?  Were live
aliens captured?  Stay tuned.  But I suspect that
they've added another Quonset hut and a few more
Army cots to the facilities at Camp Condon.)

SPHERICAL UFO FLASHES A
BEAM AT A CITY ON BALI

      On Thursday, February 3, 2000, at 10:20 p.m.,
German businessman David W. stepped onto the
upper-floor balcony of his hotel room on the island
of Bali in Indonesia.  From the balcony, he had a
good view of the night sky and the city of Denpasar
and the tropical beach lining the calm waters of
Selat Bali (bay).
      "I was waiting at the balcony of my hotel room,"
David reported, "and suddenly I saw a very strange
light reflection in the northern sky.  Of blues, greens,
silvers and a lot more."
      "After a few seconds, a rotating spheroid flew
with an enormous speed in my direction.  It stopped
its rotation and flight route a few miles in front of me,
directly over the city of Denpasar."
      "From the center of the object, a golden yellow
blinding lightbeam connected the city and the sphere
for about one minute.  After that, the UFO started to
rotate again and flew off towards the city."
      "After a few seconds, the object was gone.  It
stopped at 100 meters (330 feet) above the city
and was very fast."
      Denpasar is on the south side of Bali island
and is about 880 kilometers (550 miles) east of
Jakarta, the capital of Indonesia.  (Email Form
Report)
(Editor's Comment:  Remember the reports from
Ohio and Chile?  Witnesses reported seeing
"circles of light" appear on their bedroom walls,
followed by the emergence of an alien.  We've
also seen several reports of these "light stabs"
from hovering UFOs.  Maybe the yellow beam is
some kind of alien transporter like on Star Trek
That wasn't the only "light stab" last week, either.
Keep reading.)

HOVERING UFO FLASHES A
BEAM IN LINCOLNSHIRE

      On Sunday, January 23, 2000, at 9 p.m., a
married couple "saw a bright light glide over their
house and travel some three miles (5 kilometers)
from Holbeach towards Kings Lynne" in
Lincolnshire, UK.
      "The object was travelling slowly with a
flashing light much like a navigation light on a
plane."
      "Suddenly, a large white light appeared in the
centre of the object with flickering intermittent
lights around the object."
      The witnesses estimated that the UFO was
three miles away and hovering at an estimated
altitude of 15,000 feet (4,545 meters)
      "The object hovered for approximately ten
minutes, at which point the object then dipped
to the right slowly, then shot up away into the
sky" at an estimated 5,000 miles per hour
(8,000 kilometers per hour.)
      "As my Mum put it, 'It flew into space!'"
      "I basically need to know if anyone else saw
the object," the witnesses' child reported, "My
parents are not taken to flights of fancy, and my
father is a trained ex-RAF observer of 25 years
standing."  The ex-RAF witness also operated
a radar set while in the service.
      Holbeach and Kings Lynne are about 12 miles
(200 kilometers) north-northeast of London.  (Many
thanks to Todd Lemire for this report.)

TWO MEN SPOT A UFO IN
GREEN BAY, WISCONSIN

      On Tuesday, February 1, 2000, at 5:15 p.m.,
Croydon K. and his partner were sitting in their
office overlooking Fish Creek in Green Bay,
Wisconsin (population 96,466) when they saw
unusual lights beyond their office window.
      "All of a sudden, large green and red lights
began flashing like flash bulbs in the sky above
the water.  The lights just appeared out of thin
air."
      "These lights hovered in the sky for about
60 seconds or so and then just stopped, as if
they were turned off by a switch.  In the process
of their hover, they would move horizontal to the
water (of Green Bay, which itself is an arm of
Lake Michigan--J.T.) and then reversed direction
instantly and moved up and down vertically
very quickly."
      "This action repeated itself over and over.
I also noticed something in the corner of my eye
in our office like a mist just before the light
show started."
      He estimated that the UFO was 100 feet
(30 meters) above the water.
      Green Bay is on Wisconsin Highways 41
and 141 approximately 117 miles (187
kilometers) north of Milwaukee.  (Email
Form Report)
(Editor's Note:  Green Bay is a notorious UFO
hotspot and has seen several other events
linked to the Lake Michigan Triangle.)

WOMAN SEES A UFO IN
NEW BEDFORD, MASS.

      On Thursday, February 3, 2000, at 10:15 p.m.,
eyewitness Michele N. glanced through a window
of her home in New Bedford, Massachusetts
(population 100,000) and spotted a UFO passing
slowly over the neighborhood.
      "It was a circular object with a red flashing
light," she reported, "I had it in sight for several minutes."
      According to the witness, the large disc-shaped
UFO came from the south over Mount Hope Bay.
Crossing the shoreline, it flew northward over
Brooktown Park and Tarkiln Hill, moving roughly
parallel to Ashley Boulevard, before it went out
of sight.
      New Bedford, a prominent whaling port in the
early Nineteenth Century, is located on Interstate
Highway I-195 about 58 miles (93 kilometers)
south of Boston.  (Email Form Report)
(Editor's Note:  New Bedford played host to UFOs
during the L'affaire Tillinghast, also known as "the
great airship invasion of 1909."  See the Fall River,
Mass. Herald for December 26, 1909, page 1.)

ROUNDUP MYSTERY VAN
SIGHTED IN ARIZONA

      On Thursday evening, February 3, 2000, a
dentist, Dr. Bruce C., was at Park Mall in Tucson,
Arizona (population 405,390) when he spotted
an unusual white van with Georgia license plates
in the mall's parking lot.
      Yes, it was the UFO Roundup mystery van,
which first appeared in Warsaw, Indiana
(population 10,968) in July 1999.  Three months
later, in October 1999, the van was seen again
at a casino in Lake Charles, Louisiana
(population 70,500).
      It is not known who is the operator of the
late-model white van with its array of high-gain
dish antennae.  On the van's rear are the words
UFO FIELD INTERCEPT TEAM and beneath it
the website address: http://ufoinfo.com/roundup.
      However, the van is not the property of
either UFO Roundup editor Joseph Trainor or
UFO INFO webmaster John Hayes.
      The purpose of the van's mysterious trip across
the USA is unknown.
      "I saw a white van with various antennae on it
(and) Georgia license plates," Dr. C. reported.
"I saw it in a shopping center parking lot early
this evening.  It had your Web address on the
back, which led me to discover your very
comprehensive and well-done site."
      For more information about the van's first
appearance in Indiana, see UFO Roundup,
volume 4, number 16.
      For more information on the van's presence
in Louisiana, see UFO Roundup, volume 4,
number 27.

BIGFOOT ON THE PROWL
IN FORT HALL, IDAHO

      An Idaho State University biology professor
is focusing his Bigfoot efforts in the Pocatello,
Idaho area following persistent reports of the
presence of Bigfoot and perhaps a whole tribe
of similar hominids in the area.
      For the past ten years, most of the
sightings have occurred around Fort Hall, Idaho
(population 900) and Chubbuck, Idaho
(population 7,700), two towns located just north
of Pocatello.
      "For the past two years," Prof. Jeff Meldrum
"has been on a Bigfoot hunt, tracking footprints
and looking for signs of the legendary hairy ape."
      "'My work is to shift the emphasis from
tabloid stories to scientific inquiry,'Meldrum says,
'My data is in the form of footprints.'"
      "Although Meldrum says his obsession began
in fifth grade after viewing a documentary film on
Bigfoot, he wasn't a believer until he saw fresh
tracks for himself outside of Walla Walla, Wash.
a few years ago."
      "Meldrum describes about 35 tracks on a
muddy stretch beside a road.  Although he was
skeptical, he says the hair on the back of his
neck stood up  From then on, he was hooked."
      "Pictures of apes cover the walls of Meldrum's
office and casts of huge footprints line his lab
tables.  Some feet measure 16 to 17 inches
long and show what Meldrum terms anatomical
features."
      Recent Bigfoot sightings north of Pocatello
include the following:
      "A recent report in Fort Hall is still under
investigation.  Some parties say they saw
footprints, and some blame the sighting in stray
cattle."
      "A Chubbuck woman reported several years
ago she saw a big, hulking hairy ape.  Later she
saw three sets of 16 to 17-inch-long footprints
in the snow, and her juniper tree was stripped of
berries up to 10 feet (3 meters) off the ground."
      "Eight or nine years ago, south of the
Portneuf Gap, a rancher had a disturbance in his
outbuildings and found fresh Sasquatch-sized
footprints."
      "Several sightings over the past ten years
have been reported in the river bottoms near
Mount Putnam."
      "Mountainous terrain and thick tree canopies
provide a perfect cover for what he describes as
fairly solitary animal small in numbers."
      "'A lot of people have this misconception that
it's this lone wretched animal wandering the face
of the earth,' he says, 'We have examples of
multiple animals--males, females and young.'"
(See the Idaho State Journal of Pocatello, Idaho
for November 20, 1999, "ISU professor following
Bigfoot's footprints" by Emily Simnitt.  Many
thanks to Lou Farrish of UFO Newsclipping Service
for forwarding this newspaper article.)

from the UFO Files...

1748: UNFORGETTABLE
           ADAM WEISHAUPT

      I can practically guarantee you'll never see this
article in Reader's Digest.  But I love to do these
Digest-style biographies of famous people in the
paranormal field, so here goes.
      He's been called many things.  The Abbe
Barruel called him "a human devil."  Thomas
Jefferson called him "a harmless philanthropist."
Prof. John Robison called him "the profoundest
conspirator that ever existed."
      But what's the real story behind the man
who simply called himself "Brother Spartacus?"
      Adam Weishaupt was born on February 6,
1748 in Ingolstadt, a city in Bayern (Bavaria),
Germany, which was then an independent
kingdom.  When he was a baby, his parents,
who had been Orthodox Jews, converted to
the Roman Catholic Church.
      Instead of attending the yeshiva, Adam
attended monastery schools and later a
hochschule (high school) run by the Society
of Jesus.  As a Bavarian, Adam learned Czech
and Italian as a child, and in school, he soon
mastered Latin, Greek and, with his father's
help, Hebrew.
      With his avid scholarship and knack for
languages, his Jesuit superiors thought he would
be a natural for overseas missionary work, perhaps
in the Americas or in Asia.  But Adam rebelled
against Jesuit discipline, resisted their overtures
and eventually became the professor of canon law
at the University of Ingolstadt.
      Beginning around 1768, Adam began "the
collection of a large library for the purpose of
establishing an academy of scholars."  He read
every ancient manuscript and text he and his
associates could lay hands on.
      Adam grew interested in the occult, becoming
obsessed with the Great Pyramid of Giza.  He
was convinced that the edifice was a prehistoric
temple of initiation.  In 1770, he made the
acquaintance of Franz Kolmer, a Danish merchant
who had lived for many years in Alexandria and
had made several trips to Giza..
      The following year, 1771, Adam decided to
found a secret society aimed at "transforming" the
human race.  He devoted five years to thinking
out the plan, borrowing from many different occult
sources.  His first name for the proposed order,
Perfectibilisen, suggests that he borrowed from
the Cathars, a gnostic religion that flourished in
Europe for four hundred years.  The Cathars,
whose name means "perfect ones," were decimated
in the Albigensian Crusade of Pope Innocent III
during the early Thirteenth Century.
      Adam fashioned his order in the form of (what
else?) a pyramid. "Its members, pledged to
obedience to their superiors, were divided into
three main classes; the first including novices,
minervals and lesser illuminati the second
consisting," like the Freemasons, of "ordinary,
Scottish and Scottish Knights, and the third,
or mystery class, comprising two grades
of priest and regent, and of magus
and king," or Illuminatus Rex.
      This hierarchy, incidentally, is identical to
the table of organization of the Sufis of Islam,
which has some historians wondering if Adam's
friend Kolmer was a closet Sufi.
      The Illuminati were a closemouthed bunch.
"Every candidate had to give a written promise
to tell nobody of this society.  He learned nothing
of his superiors and of the origin of the society,
but was confirmed in the belief that the order
could be traced back to antiquity and that its
members included even popes and cardinals."
      "He further vowed eternal silence and strict
obedience.  Every month he had to send a
report to his superior, whom he did not know."
      Adam felt that human society had grown
hopelessly corrupt and that it could only be
saved by a complete overhaul.  In effect, he
was the first utopian to think on a global scale,
and he looked forward to the day his group
would bring about the Novus Ordo Seclorum,
sometimes called the New World Order.
      The Illuminati had five goals, including
"(a) .Abolition of monarchies and all ordered
governments,
(2) Abolition of private property and inheritances,
(3) Abolition of patriotism and nationalism,
(4) Abolition of family life and the institution of
marriage, and the establishment of communal
education of children.
(5) Abolition of all religion."
      By drawing upon Europe's "best and brightest,"
Adam was confident that the order could attain
its goals.  He wrote, "The pupils are convinced
that the Order will rule the world.  Every member
therefore becomes a ruler.  We all think of ourselves
as qualified to rule.  It is therefore an alluring thought
both to good and bad men.  Therefore the Order
will spread."
      He also urged his followers not to shrink from
committing violence or criminal acts in meeting
Illuminati objectives, writing, "Sin is only that which
is hurtful, and if the profit is greater than the damage,
it becomes a virtue."
      Recruitment proceeded at a brisk pace.  Adam
rallied many able lieutenants to his cause.  Such
as Baron Xavier von Zwack, who lobbied for the
order in Germany and in Britain, too, with help
from William Petty, the second Earl of Shelburne.
And Baron Adolf von Knigge, who brokered a
"shotgun marriage" between Illuminism and
European Freemasonry at the Congress of
Whilhelmsbad in 1782.
      By 1782, the Illuminati "had spread from
Denmark to Portugal," and even further afield.
Illuminized Britons joined with like-minded
Americans to found the Columbian Lodge in
New York City that year.  A young Russian
nobleman, Alexander Radischev, joined the
order in Leipzieg and carried the doctrines
home to St. Petersburg.  In Lisboa (Lisbon),
a poet named Claudio Manuel da Costa
became a member and, upon returning home
to Brazil, founded a chapter with two doctors
from Ouro Preto, Domingos Vidal Barbosa
and Jose Alvares Maciel.  In 1788, this trio
launched the first Illuminati uprising, the
Inconfidencia Mineira, but the revolt was
nipped in the bud by the viceroy, the Marquis
de Barbacena.
      Meanwhile, back in Germany, Adam was
learning that life as the Illuminatus Rex was not
quite the paradise he'd envisioned.  His long-time
mistress became pregnant and insisted that he
either pay up or marry her.  Adam stalled, and
the lady threatened to go public with the scandal.
      Baron von Knigge, who had given the
Illuminatenorden a big boost by allying with
Freemasonry, thought he should be rewarded
by becoming Adam's co-ruler in the order.
Adam disagreed, and the resulting feud between
the two men resulted in von Knigge quitting the
order in 1784.
      To make matters worse, Illuminati writers
Johann Herder and Johann G. Fichte had begun
beating the drum for German unification.  Their
calls for "Ein volk und ein Reich" were completely
out of sync with Adam's plan to do away with
nationalism.
      While Adam may have been a brilliant scholar,
he lacked the leader's touch.  He was too high-
handed and arrogant, disinclined to listen to the
advice of subordinates.  These characteristics
enraged some of the lesser Illuminati, such as
Joseph Utschneider, and they awaited the day
they would have their revenge.
      The day was not long in coming.  An Illuminati
courier was struck by lightning and killed.  When
the Bavarian police searched his body, they
found coded messages from Weishaupt sewn
into the clothes.
      At this critical juncture, Utschneider and his
three companions came forward and told the
Bavarian authorities all about the Illuminati.  As
a result, the King of Bavaria banned the order in
August 1784.
      Fired from his position at the university, and
accused of everything from treason to goat
molestation, Adam fled Ingolstadt on horseback
and went to Regensburg.  When he found the
people there equally hostile, he rode on to Gotha,
where he was offered refuge by Duke Ernst II.
An associate, Dr. Schwartz, loaded the order's
collection of Kabbalist, Cathar, Sufi and occult
books into an ox-cart and begn the long journey
eastward to Moscow.
(Editor's Comment:  As an American, I am amazed
by the eerie parallels with early USA history.
Weishaupt's escape to Gotha resembles the
"midnight ride" of Paul Revere and William Dawes
in 1775.  And Dr. Schwartz's trip to Moscow has
its parallel in the wagon trains of the first Oregon
pioneers.  Maybe he should have put a sign on
the cart--Mockba hhaye Khytekh, "Moscow or
Bust.")
      The "profoundest conspirator that ever existed"
lived out the rest of his life in exile in Gotha.  He
got into more mischief in the French Revolution
with his friend and correspondent, Jean-Baptiste
Willermoz, the Illuminatus of Lyons.  And lived
long enough to inspire new generations of
Illuminati--Anacharsis Cloots, Francois Babeuf
and Filippo Buonarotti, among others.
      Adam Weishaupt died on November 18, 1830
in Gotha.  Even in death, he remains a figure of
controversy.  The Roman Catholic Encyclopedia
of 1910 said Weishaupt repented on his deathbed
and was reconciled with the Church.  Author Gary
Allen claimed that Adam was working on an essay
on hermetic art magick, Two Fragments of a Ritual,
when he suddenly dropped dead.  Quien sabe?
      Proper assessment of Adam's role in history
may have to wait a few more centuries, for a
generation of more objective historians.  His is
still a hot-button name.
      Here in the USA, fundamentalist Christians
consider Adam Weishaupt a kind of sinister John
the Baptist, proclaiming the global Kingdom of
Satan.  And those who favor the New World Order...
well, they don't say much of anything.  Mention
the names "Adam Weishaupt" and "Illuminati,"
and they tend to grit their teeth and scowl.
      For myself, whenever I think about Adam
Weishaupt and his sect, the haunting question
of Jesus Christ comes to mind.  "Can an evil
tree produce good fruit?"  (See The New World
Order by Pat Robertson, Word Publishing, Dallas,
Texas, 1991, pages 180 through 183; Einige
Originalschriften des Illuminatenordens, Munich,
1786; and Essai sur la secte des Illuminees,
by J.P.L. de la Roche de Maine, Paris, 1792.)

      We'll be back next week with more UFO and
paranormal news from around the planet, brought
to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup."
See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2000 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
newsitems from UFO Roundup on their websites
or in newsgroups provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the
date of issue in which the item first appeared...

*********************************************************

IMPORTANT Please Read:
======================

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deaths are children under 5. By visiting the Hunger Site
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or use the Sighting Report Form at:

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Official Archives of the UK UFO Network Bulletin,
AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences,
UFO + PSI Magazine also available, plus archives of
Filer's Files.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 10

                      Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:37:06 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:58:14 -0500
Subject: Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos


 >Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 23:35:23 -0500
 >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
 >Subject: Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:26:51 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >>Subject: Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>I just checked out the MGS images and the calculations Lan did.
 >>If the assumptions he made are correct, then there is something
 >>of foreign origin on the surface of Phobos.  The surface
 >>brightness of the monolith, when compared to the inside of the
 >>sunlit craters for the same sun angle, is much brighter.  This
 >>further supports the foreign origin of this object.

 >I think it would be best to be cautious on this score.

Yes, "caution" is exactly the word I used in describing the
situation.

 >First, it is a good idea to examine the context of the image. In
 >other words, is the object unique?

Uniqueness isn't the issue, although it does appear to be unique
in shape and size.

 >The answer is no - there are other protrusions casting long
 >shadows which have apparently higher albedos. The following URL
 >shows the original image.

None of the objects casting long shadows have digital brightness
values as high as the "monolith." You can do a brightness
contour trace to check this. There is only one crater much
farther to the sunward side of the moon that is brighter.

 >http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/html/orb_0551/55103.html

 >The following frames from that image show objects similar
 >to the "monolith"

 >http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/fullres/divided/orb_0551/55103k.jpg (near
 >the upper right and bottom center; also there are other
 >protrusions of similar form but with albedo similar to the
 >surface, and on the rim of a crater near the bottom)

 >http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/fullres/divided/orb_0551/55103m.jpg
 >(several scattered across the image)

 >http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/fullres/divided/orb_0551/55103l.jpg
 >(many small ones)

 >Obviously, when there are a lot of similar features of varying
 >size scattered across the landscape, the appearance of
 >uniqueness is destroyed.

Yes, but there aren't so it isn't. The images cited are all
subsections of the image closer to the terminator. Naturally,
the closer to the terminator, the longer are the shadows any
object will cast. The center of the image is in subframe k, the
terminator (the day/night line) is in subframe p, and the
"monolith is in subframe h. The stated sun angle at the center
point in subframe k is 45 degrees, so the length of shadows
would be about equal to the height of objects casting them. The
"monolith" is at a position where the sun elevation is greater,
and the object would be higher than the length of its shadow
making it about 3 to 4 times higher than its apparent base
diameter - assuming the moon was a perfect sphere, which of
course it is not, as I noted on the web page. The irregularity
of the moon's shape definitely warrants caution, but but it does
not justify claiming that it is "prosaic."

 >The albedo variance is also not so difficult to explain. Once
 >you realize that there are quite a few similar objects across
 >the surface, you also notice that they are most prominent where
 >the sun angle is closest to tangential with the surface.

What is being called "albedo" is probably more the result of
surfaces of similar albedo being struck by sunlight at different
angles. The higher the sun elevation angle relative to a
surface, the brighter the light reflected will be. It's
interesting that most of the other, far smaller, objects that
cast shadows that are long in proportion to their width are all
positioned on darker surfaces than is the monolith. That
indicates that the sun angle is much lower at those points,
which is not surprising since they're closer to the terminator.

 >It is
 >not surprising that the faces of such objects, which protrude up
 >into the sunlight, might be much brighter to a perpendicular
 >observation than the texture of the flat surface. In addition,
 >one notices that these anomalies become less prevalent as one
 >travels toward the bright side and the dark side, again
 >supporting a more mundane explanation for the albedo variance.

I don't think it's the "albedo" that makes the object unusual.
The monolith is well to the sunward side of the center point of
the photograph where the sun could be at an elevation higher
than 45 degres, it's much larger than any of the other objects,
and it has a very different shape from those that are large
enough to make out a shape. Nobody has said that there are not
boulders on Phobos. I'm sure some of these other objects with
long shadows located close to the terminator or on the rims of
craters are exactly that.

 >Finally, a comparison of the albedo of the "monolith" against
 >the albedo of the sunward surface shows no major difference,
 >which also supports the mundane hypothesis. (Note that a close
 >examination shows similar protrusions (which may well be blocks
 >flung from crater formation events)) on the sunward side, but
 >the albedo variation is much less, and so they are less
 >noticeable.

 >For instance, see

 >http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/fullres/divided/orb_0551/55103d.jpg

 >which shows a sunward surface that still exhibits these
 >objects.

Yes, there are some "blocks" in that section. One of them, near
the rim of a crater, has a very long shadow despite being at a
position where the sun must be very high. The surface on which
the shadow is cast is very bright, indicating a high sun
elevation relative to the local horizontal. The length of the
shadow is more than twice the objects' base diameter, and the
object's height could be more than five times its width.
Whether or not the "monolith" is unique on Phobos is irrelevant
to whether or not it and perhaps some of the other apparently
elongated objects *should* be there or how they came to be
there. Meteoroid impacts don't seem a very plausible answer.









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                       Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland

From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:24:50 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:00:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland


 >Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:06:15 -0600 (CST)
 >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
 >Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


Hi Brian, Jeroen and others,

Brian said:

 >The only realistic non-hoax explanation I've seen reported so
 >far is that of Ed McCoy, who noted that ice frequently
 >accumulates and then falls off airplanes.  However, if that is
 >the ice source, such reports should not be anything new. This
 >should have been going on for some time, and not just have
 >started in the past month or two.

 >If it is ice off planes, what we may see is simply the power of
 >the internet bringing the phenomenon out of obscurity and into
 >the public eye.  But if this is a truly new phenomenon with no
 >significant past history, I'd doubt the ice-off-planes theory is
 >the answer.

 >Does anyone on the list have a feel for whether there's any
 >significant reported past history to such ice falls (ie, prior
 >to those in Spain) ?

I agree that there is a big media influence here, but the origin
lies in the traditional media. Phase 1: A few years ago the
first incidents were reported from Spain of falling ice blocks
from the sky. After a while they were officially explained as
having fallen off airplanes.

Phase 2: The new iceblock wave again seems to have started in
Spain. This time "experts" said they could not explain the
phenomenon. After a short while a similar incident was reported
from Italy. A few weeks later, a few days ago, a falling
iceblock was reported in the Netherlands. Where the Canadian
iceblocks fit in the timeline I don't know.

I think two significant things can be observed here. Firstly,
there has been a media build up going on comparable to what
happens when UFO sightings accumulate to a media flap and also
comparable to the way social issues rise to the surface of
public interest. Compare the awareness of the public to subjects
like the killing of seals for their fur coats and the hunger in
Ethiopia that had been going on for years until gradually the
media caught on to it and pop stars organized the Band Aid
concert. Before that happened journalists had been banging on
doors for years without result.

In a similar fashion the iceblock phenomenon has been building
up for a few years now. In Europe the print and television media
have been spreading the phenomenon and I think the internet is
responsible for making it a worldwide phenomenon, that is
connecting the European cases with the Canadian. Before long,
other countries will join in, I suppose.

The second significant observation is that as far as the recent
cases are concerned, at least in Europe, no prosaic explanations
are offered. Remarkably in the Dutch case, experts have stated
they could not explain the falling iceblocks, in other words
they believe the blocks fell from the sky. At the same time they
concluded the composition of the ice is comparable to sewer
water. That may conflict with the "no explanation" position, but
the conclusions are there.


Groeten,
Henny








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                       Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:26:43 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:03:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland


 >Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:49:39 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:54:46 -0800
 >>From: GT McCoyy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>I've just caught on to this, has anyone thought about airframe
 >>ice from both large and small aircraft. I shed a huge chunk -50
 >>lbs. or so _ from a Cessna 210 once and almost took out a VW bug
 >>the Bug's owner thought it funny I didn't.

 >>Also I was behind a DC-3?C-47? ( I was flying a Cessna of some
 >>sort 182 it's been a long time) as the Doug was shedding ice I
 >>was below and behind  at Boeing Field - I was getting whacked
 >>until I pulled out of the Doug's trail.

 >>Airframe Ice can last a long time and accumulate on parts of the
 >>Aircraft that do not have De-Ice equip- ment, then the Aircraft
 >>goes below the freezing level, and sheds its Ice.  By the way,
 >>as this phenoma can ocurr year 'round depending on the weather
 >>conditions the Aircraft was subjucted to. Just asking.

 >I iced up the sides of an Oldsmobile driving across Quebec once!
 >That was a new experience for me, I live in California.

 >The driver's side door was iced shut, and I had to force it
 >open. There was no snow or ice on the ground, it was a
 >combination of speed, dew point etc. etc. I suppose.

 >I imagine its a real problem for aircraft especially, but
 >perfectly natural given the right conditions.

Hi everyone.

I just finished speaking with an ex-colleague, David Phillips,
senior climatologist and Canadian weather expert with the
Canadian Government.  I asked David what he thought about the
many reports in the news of large individual pieces of ice
falling from the sky.

David agreed that ice falling from aircraft is one of several
explanations that would account for these reports.  He was aware
of the recently reported ice fall in Ottawa which he noted was
not far from the airport.  In his huge files of anomalous
weather and weather trivia, he has many earlier reports of
similar ice falls in the Ottawa airport area.  Nothing new here.

David pointed out that since Holland is a small country with a
large airport which is used by many airlines from around the
world, he was not surprised that ice falls were reported there
too.  GT McCoyy's observations then would be very valid in our
understanding of what is happening.

As for Spain where these ice falls seem to have first caught the
public's attention, it is a popular winter vacation region for
many Europeans.  Since Europe recently had and continues to
experience unusually cold and wet weather, it is very likely
that even small pieces of ice falling from aircraft would grow
in size in the cold damp sky to become large blocks of ice by
the time they reach the ground.  Just like Larry Hatch's
Oldsmobile experience in Quebec, ice accretion can be very
pronounced in very short times, even for a small piece of ice
falling through very humid air.

One amusing incident which David related to me happened in St.
Catherines (about an hour's drive S.W. of Toronto) and involved
a block of ice which fell from the sky.  It smashed through the
roof of a washroom at the local Royal Canadian Legion hall.  The
washroom was occupied at the time but the person escaped with no
injuries, other than shell shock.

 From David's experience, people will not report a rare or
unusual weather event they experienced, such as an ice fall,
until others have reported something similar.  Even when many
people start reporting similar accounts of something strange
happening in one region (eg. a large TV audience watching Uri
Geller who tells them to phone in if he made their watch stop or
someone suggests that some unknown force is causing pits in car
windshields), we may not really have some new physical phenemena
to deal with.

David also has reasons to suspect that a few of the reported ice
falls were hoaxes by copycats.  Now if such ice falls were
reported from parts of the world with few aircraft and far away
from air traffic lanes (especially places where blocks of ice
are not readily available), then we we may have a real mystery
to figure out.

Nick Balaskas









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                Re: Info/Theories Of Possible Alien Moonbase?

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 01:53:36 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:11:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Info/Theories Of Possible Alien Moonbase?


 >Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:04:09 -0500
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >Subject: Re: Info/Theories Of Possible Alien Moonbase?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 19:20:06 -0500
 >>From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@netzero.net>
 >>Subject: Info/Theories Of Possible Alien Moonbase?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Where could I get some of the theories or stories about the moon
 >>possibly being hollow or harboring aliens? I would like to use
 >>this as a topic for one of my shows. Thanks.

 >Stefan:

 >You might be interested in taking note of a particularly odd
 >newspaper article from the 60's, which quotes a famous
 >Cincinnati meteorologist that was an acquaintance of the late
 >pot-smoking Carl Sagan.

 >Sagan, who was "high" on the list of CSICOP's 'Top Ten' skeptics
 >in a recent edition of "Skeptical Inquirer," was said to have
 >served as "Adviser onT Extra-Terrestrial life for the Armed
 >Services" in the sixties [Hmmm... was this a real position - and
 >if so, why would the "Armed Services" need such an adviser?
 >Perhaps they wanted to nuke them martian microbes?]

 >Evidently, when Carl was not inhaling, he was making outlandish
 >comments on the side - as he reportedly did to one Frank Pierce.
 >Carl was said to have told Pierce: "We must assume that they
 >[UFOs] have bases on the other said of the Moon."

 >I brought this to the attention of the list before, but
 >shucks... it's a good head scratcher. The newspaper article is
 >located at:    http://home.fuse.net/ufo/sagan.html

 >We know where Carl got his inspiration... I wonder where he got
 >his supply?

 >Kenny Young

I've been told that he invited Einstein up to the observatory
one night and Albert thanked Carl by turning him on for the
first time. Where do you think the special theory of relativity
came from? After a few moments Sagan said, "I didn't know this
was an infra red telescope". He and Einstein then talked about
the stoned secrets of Tesla all night. They also laughed about
the Norwegian story of the sighting of a UFO with wisps. How the
men went looking for the wisps and instead came back with two
haycocks - hay piles 15-18m in diameter that had relocated to a
different field and sat there looking as though they had not
gone out. An odd tale indeed.

I don't know if the above tale is true. It's just something
Sagan shared with me in our haze late one night. Actually, I
can't remember if that is true either. Was that Carl Sagan in a
cameo in that Cheech and Chong movie?

Joshin' you
A psychedelic relic from California
now in Berlin - where it is decriminalized












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              Re: The British National UFO Research Association

From: Richard D. Nolane <raynaud@total.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:02:21 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:13:47 -0500
Subject: Re: The British National UFO Research Association


 >Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 18:13:33 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Tim Mathews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >Subject: The British National UFO Research Association
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Although the rebirth of objective British Ufology has been
 >delayed for a week things are now back on schedule.


Dear List,

So, there is another "rebirth" of the British Ufology...

NUFORA seems promising but what about UFOIN now?

Best,

RDN







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               Re: Everything Before This Book A Confabulation

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:26:51 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:21:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Everything Before This Book A Confabulation


Having just a moment ago answered an email from a beloved Torre
on the other side of the Pond, a slightly gaga little puppy who
claimed (wait'll yous hear this) that he's "had some experience
with them grays..."). I mean, _really!_ Have you ever heard of
such drivel in all your life? This, I would expect from blonde
Englishpersons.

I heard that. I heard what you just said. "This man claimed
he's been abducted all his life, now he's laughing at someone
who just made the same claim?" Is this what UFO and abduction
research is all about? Is this what the subject has come to?
People just shaping and reshaping themselves as the wind blows?

Kinda sorta looks like that, do it not? Then I said to myself,
"Hey, why the hell not? People change their minds all the time.
Why shouldn't I?" Why indeed! Hell, I can sell not one but TWO
books in the same post, that's why!

After I began writing my first book, "Why Am I This Way?" I
decided that everything I said in that book was wrong. That's
right, wrong. And I put so many hours into writing it. Even
aksed a famous TV star, an artist, a poet and recently, a song
lyracyst... lyra-sist, whatever to contribute to it's demise an
all. Anyway, I was then faced with a serious dilemma, since I
now had a truth, and writ a book about the wrong, what was I to
do? Huh? But the first problem to be solved was, why was I
wrong?

I had to cypher it all out. I had the answer right here in
Upadates all along but had ignored it. Thanks to some folks who
graciously pointed it out that I had Ph.D.'s, I now know why I
was wrong.

The reason I was wrong was all them PhD's. This had been pointed
out often by those much smarter than I could ever hope to be.
"All wrong is caused by people with Ph.D.'s Ph.D., by the way,
is an oxymoron. It stands for Doctor of Philosophy. The theory
being that you are so damned smart, so educated on a particular
subject, so into it, that you are actually permitted to
pontificate and philosophize on the subject which your Ph.D. was
garnered in. In which it was garnered. Sorry.

Now anyone with half an ounce of purple pimple juice for brains
_knows_ that anyone with _that_ much information is a dangerous
weapon waiting to kill someone. Like a hand gun an stuff. Like
fertilizer in the hands of some recluse with an attitude.
Danger, danger, danger! Dragon poop! (Uh, that's from that
Aussie lizard guy. I think they call him the crocked hunter...
or something).

Having found the reason for the errant things I writ about in my
book, I now could focus on a way of settling the issue. I
cyphered, an cyphered, an finally got it all figgered out. An I
did it all by myself. Well, I had a little liquid assistance,
heh, heh.

I decided to write two books, one behind the other. Book to
book so to speak. The first book will be titled as planned,
"Why Am I This Way," and the other side of the book, upside down
of course, is the second title, "Why I Said all That Stuff!"

And so, now the Gripple Institoot (publishers) and Doctor J.
Jaime (that's High-Meee) Gesundt, will make out like bandits.
Double the money, double the pleasure and double the fun.

It is going to be a little like a few of them other "turnaround"
books we've seen recently. Only mine will be honest to a fault.
I fully intend to tell everyone in that second book, just how
much I lied in the first one. And in the first one, just how
much I lied in the second one. And like a few of my fellow
researchers and authors, (or is it authers?) I too, shall
confuse, confabulate, misinform and otherwise create amongst my
fans, a a condition in which things are out of their normal or
proper relationships. But I shall _admit_ my naughty ways.
Harumpf.

I shall be amongst those who have, "Changed their minds!"

Of course, saying this precludes having one to change. Just
kidding. After all we are Ph.D.'s to a man, woman and
researcher. Of course we're smart. I was just being funny.

Let that sentence read: "I shall be among those who've changed
his direction, not his mind. For the mind is a terrible thing to
change!" I will be a researcher's researcher_.

Here's a little riddle, "What has magnitude and no direction?" I
shall allow you to decide the answer.

And I would never have got there without Kanappy. I love you
Kanappy. But not in the Biblical sense, as I have not come out,
as yet, of that closet. But I insist that the only ones who are
gay in this entire mess are the so-called Aliens. In
consideration of the stuff they do us, you know? But then, it's
all a misconscrewsion... misconcepted... whatever.

Last, here are the mistakes I made in my first book, which will
be clarified in the second:

UFO's really are swamp gas...
Abductees are crazy...
Chupacabras are the result of Gripple addlement ...
Aliens would NEVER come here, it's too dangerous...
Aliens would only contact us by radio, it's safer...
Phil Klass and Joe should write a book...
Gripple Institoot will publish it.

J. Jaime Gesundt.


Jim Mortellaro






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   Feb > Feb 11

               Re: Everything Before This Book A Confabulation

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:28:14 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 07:09:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Everything Before This Book A Confabulation


JM wrote:

 >>Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:26:51 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Everything Before This Book A Confabulation
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Having just a moment ago answered an email from a beloved Torre
 >>on the other side of the Pond, a slightly gaga little puppy who
 >>claimed (wait'll yous hear this) that he's "had some experience
 >>with them grays..."). I mean, _really!_ Have you ever heard of
 >>such drivel in all your life? This, I would expect from blonde
 >>Englishpersons.

 >>I heard that. I heard what you just said. "This man claimed
 >>he's been abducted all his life, now he's laughing at someone
 >>who just made the same claim?" Is this what UFO and abduction
 >>research is all about? Is this what the subject has come to?
 >>People just shaping and reshaping themselves as the wind blows?


Hi All,

Sorry but this has thrown me. Who is this person? Might be a
case of crossed wires here.

Roy..







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              Re: The British National UFO Research Association

From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 05:21:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 07:14:06 -0500
Subject: Re: The British National UFO Research Association


 >Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:02:21 -0600
 >From: Richard D. Nolane <raynaud@total.net>
 >Subject: Re: The British National UFO Research Association
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Dear List,
 >So, there is another "rebirth" of the British Ufology...
 >NUFORA seems promising but what about UFOIN now?

I find it quite endearing that anyone should be even vaguely
interested in the midwifery of any British UFO 'research' group.

I recently visited the maternity unit which deals with all
British UFO group births and spoke with the consultant there. Dr
Alan Staithes.

He told me that UFOIN has reached it's target weight and both
mother and child were doing well. NUFORA was an unforseen
ectopic pregancy which was born by ceasarian at very short
notice. I gather it is now in intensive care and Dr Mantle has
been brought in to deal with the afterbirth.

UFOIN/IUN/BUFORA/MARA/NARO/NORA - these are just silly games we
play with acronyms here. It's all just the same 30-40 people
falling out, making up, shouting "yah, boo, sucks" and then
running away.

None of it matters except to the sad people who play these
games.

What _does_ matter is not what titles people hold, or how many
conferences in godforsaken towns they put on, but what cases
they solve and what genuine research they generate.

Meet the new ufology - same as the old ufology

Happy Trails

Andy
Not a Director of anything







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                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:06:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:31:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 21:49:46 -0800
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 21:34:15 -0400
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 20:21:26 -0800
 >>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Too bad that Ed Stewart and Bob Todd have conveniently forgotten
 >>that Robert Cutler worked at the White House. He was a special
 >>assistant to the President.

 >This is another ruse and deception that Friedman keeps
 >perpetrating on the UFO community. No one has "conveniently
 >forgotten" who Robert Cutler was, who he worked for and where he
 >worked at. It is simply not relevant. Robert Cutler was not
 >found in RG341, an Air Force record group. The alleged
 >Cutler-Twining memo was and it was the procedure of the Air
 >Force at the time (documented fact) to use document control
 >numbers on Top Secret documents that came under their control.
 >Where Robert Cutler had  his morning cup of coffee is simply not
 >relevant, never was relevant, and never will be relevant.


Ed's standard don't-bother-me-with-the-facts attitude and his
obvious inability to even be civil are well established in the
posting. First he agrees that the originating agency determines
the security markings, then he claims that since the CT memo was
found in an USAF RG, that it should have their marks on it. Now
if that were true, why is it that the 2 TS memos to USAF General
Twining (From Cutler), found in his files, and therefore under
USAF control, had no TS Control numbers?

I noted in my 1989 MUFON paper that according to the National
Archives, Box 189, in which CT was found, had first been
handled by an Air Force Officer between Sept.24, and Sept. 28,
1984, about 2 weeks after the death of the last surviving member
of MJ-12, Jerome Hunsaker. It was handled again June 20 and June
24 and first served to researchers in early July 1985. (Moore
and Shandera).

Furthermore there were "clever" postcards after September, 1984,
referring MS to Washington DC and including the designation  Box
189. Of course CT didn't belong in the box as is obvious upon
review of the other items in the box. Of course it was a
violation of security procedures for a TS document to be removed
from one file and placed into another. Of course, the only person
who would have access to CT, prior to Box 189 being released,
was somebody with a high level security clearance. The reviewers
had to have such clearances. They were even allowed to bring in
brief cases. The last one to handle the box could easily have
placed one item in it without anybody else knowing until it was
discovered shortly thereafter. The NA was unwilling to give me
tha names of any of the reviewers. Teams were used...

TS control numbers were usually used for Multiple copies of
multiple page documents. One page items with only one recipient
very often did not use TS control Numbers.

Re: Bob Todd and not visiting Archives, I have yet to find
anybody besides USAF Captain McAndrew who has even met him, at
Bob's home at that. Archivist Ed Reese at the National Archives
more than once told me in person that although Bob had often
written and called, he had never been there. Perhaps Ed can
provide some evidence that Todd had made a visit to the
National Archives or any other Archive?

Despite Ed's persisent denigration of my visits to Archives,
such visits give a much better picture of the variety of styles,
formats, procedures used in classified government documents,
than arm chair theorizing. Lack of consistency is the rule
rather than the exception.

As I have noted in my various papers and TOP SECRET/MAJIC,
(Autographed or not - that is a joke, Ed) there are many other
reasons for concluding that the CT memo is genuine as are the TF
memos and the EBD.

Stan Friedman









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                      Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos

From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:49:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:26:35 -0500
Subject: Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos


 >Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:37:06 -0600
 >From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 23:35:23 -0500
 >>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
 >>Subject: Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:26:51 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >>>Subject: Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>I just checked out the MGS images and the calculations Lan did.
 >>>If the assumptions he made are correct, then there is something
 >>>of foreign origin on the surface of Phobos.  The surface
 >>>brightness of the monolith, when compared to the inside of the
 >>>sunlit craters for the same sun angle, is much brighter.  This
 >>>further supports the foreign origin of this object.

 >>I think it would be best to be cautious on this score.

 >Yes, "caution" is exactly the word I used in describing the
 >situation.

<snip>

 >>http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/fullres/divided/orb_0551/55103d.jpg

<snip>

Caution is right! I rotated one of the photos to the left to
see if there was structure there (personal curiosity), and all I
saw was an unusually brightly lit boulder on the surface of
Phobos, with an elongated shadow.  I don't think it's a
monolith.

No need to have an astrophysics degree to figure this one out!

Thank you for your attention,

Michel M. Deschamps





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   Feb > Feb 11

                                     Re:

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:47:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:34:03 -0500
Subject: Re:


 >Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:28:14 +0000
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Everything Before This Book A Confabulation
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >JM wrote:

 >>>Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:26:51 -0500 (EST)
 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Subject: Everything Before This Book A Confabulation
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Having just a moment ago answered an email from a beloved Torre
 >>>on the other side of the Pond, a slightly gaga little puppy who
 >>>claimed (wait'll yous hear this) that he's "had some experience
 >>>with them grays..."). I mean, _really!_ Have you ever heard of
 >>>such drivel in all your life? This, I would expect from blonde
 >>>Englishpersons.

 >>>I heard that. I heard what you just said. "This man claimed
 >>>he's been abducted all his life, now he's laughing at someone
 >>>who just made the same claim?" Is this what UFO and abduction
 >>>research is all about? Is this what the subject has come to?
 >>>People just shaping and reshaping themselves as the wind blows?

 >Hi All,

 >Sorry but this has thrown me. Who is this person? Might be a
 >case of crossed wires here.

 >Roy..

Hello Roy,

 >Sorry but this has thrown me.

You've been "Grippled!" Comes from reading rambling, incoherent
posts that never make a point. Has the same mind numbing effect
as listening to a long political speech! :)

 >Who is this person?

It's a "Sybil" thing Roy. He signs off using several different
names. I'm still taking a count of the personalities myself.
<g>

 >Might be a case of crossed wires here.

"Fried wires" is more like it. Apparently the "Gripplemeister"
is laboring under the delusion that a large number of us have
nothing better to do with our time than play test audience for
his 'comedy' routines. Apparently talking to him about didn't
work, and will not stop him. Some folks just don't have any
internal sets of checks and balances. I hesitate to say more
for fear that he'll cry and threaten to take his ball home
again. Nuff said. ;)

To put an end to your confusion:

When you see one of the several names that he uses in the
header... use the 'delete' feature in your e-mail proggy. Works
for me dude! <lol>

John Velez,
Living for the day when _every_ post on UpDates offers
information and has relevance to the subject at hand.







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   Feb > Feb 11

               Dutch Scientists Investigate Falling Ice-Cubes

From: Jeroen Kumeling <ufonet@xs4all.nl>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 01:47:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:37:27 -0500
Subject: Dutch Scientists Investigate Falling Ice-Cubes


Dutch Scientists investigate the Mystery of the falling
Ice-cubes

Two researchers from the University of Groningen (NL) have a
lot of work to do after seven reports of falling ice in the
Netherlands.

After a citizen of Groningen found a huge ice-cube in his
back-garden, there are yet seven reports of similar objects.
Tuesday there were reports from Hoogeveen and Veendam, wednesday
again Groningen, Borculo and Almere en thursday morning
Zoutkamp.

De first ice-cube has been investigated by the university.
Conclusion: drinking water from an unkowne source. The other
findings are stil in investigation. The researchers Theo
Jurriens (astronomer) and Marsman (physisian) take every report
seriously. De researchers contacted college's in Spain. In that
country 30 ice-cubes fel down to earth.

However, there's a real wave going on. This story will be
continiued.


Jeroen Kumeling
Ice-watcher (just kidding)







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   Feb > Feb 11

                         More Ice: Read Charles Fort

From: Jeroen Kumeling <ufonet@xs4all.nl>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 02:14:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:43:04 -0500
Subject: More Ice: Read Charles Fort

The renowned Charles Fort reported in 1919 in: his "Book of
the Damned" published in the year 1919!:

http://www.resologist.net/damn01.htm (chapter 13).


Lumps of ice, a foot in circumference, Derbyshire, England, May
12, 1811 (Annual Register, 1811-54); cuboidal mass, six inches
in diameter, that fell near Birmingham, 26 days later, June 8,
1811 (Thomson, "Intro. to Meteorology," p. 129); size of
pumpkins, Bungalore, India, May 22, 1851 (Rept. Brit. Assoc.,
1855-35); masses of ice of a pound and a half each, New
Hampshire, Aug. 13, 1851 (Lummis, "Meteorology," p. 129); masses
of ice, size of a man's head, in the Delphos tornado (Ferrel,
"Popular Treatise," p. 428); large as a man's hand, killing
thousands of sheep, Mason, Texas, May 3, 1877 (Monthly Weather
Review, May, 1877); "pieces of ice so large that they could not
be grasped in one hand," in a tornado, in Colorado, June 24,
1877 (Monthly Weather Review, June, 1877); lump of ice four and
a half inches long, Richmond, England, Aug. 2, 1879 (Symons'
Met. Mag., 14-100); mass of ice, 21 inches in circumference that
fell with hail, Iowa, June, 1881 (Monthly Weather Review, June,
1881); "pieces of ice" eight inches long, and an inch and a half
thick, Davenport, Iowa, Aug. 30, 1882 (Monthly Weather Review,
Aug., 1882); lump of ice size of a brick; weight two pounds,
Chicago, July 12, 1883, (Monthly Weather Review, July, 1883);
lumps of ice that weighed one pound and a half each, India, May
(?), 1888, (Nature, 37-42); lump of ice weighing four pounds,
Texas, Dec. 6, 1893 (Sc. Am., 68-58); lumps of ice one pound in
weight, Nov. 14, 1901, in a tornado, Victoria (Meteorology of
Australia, p. 34).(24)

Of course it is our acceptance that these masses not only
accompanied tornadoes, but were brought down to this earth by
tornadoes.

Flammarion, "The Atmosphere," p. 34:(25)

Block of ice, weighing four and a half pounds fell at Cazorta,
Spain, June 15, 1829; block of ice, weighing eleven pounds, at
Cette, France, Oct., 1844; mass of ice three feet long, three
feet wide, and more than two feet thick, that fell, in a storm,
in Hungary, May 8, 1802.

Scientific American, 47-119:(26)

That, according to the Salina Journal, a mass of ice weighing
about 80 pounds had fallen from the sky, near Salina, Kansas,
Aug., [176/177] 1882. We are told that Mr. W. J. Hagler, the
North Sante F merchant became possessor of it, and packed it in
sawdust in his store.

London Times, April 7, 1860:(27)

That, upon the 16th of March, 1860, in a snowstorm, in Upper
Wasdale, blocks of ice, so large that at a distance they looked
like a flock of sheep, had fallen.

Rept. Brit. Assoc., 1851-32:(28)

That a mass of ice about a cubic yard in size had fallen at
Candeish, India, 1828.

Against these data, though, so far as I know, so many of them
have never been assembled together before, there is a silence
upon the part of scientific men that is unusual. Our
Super-Sargasso Sea may not be an unavoidable conclusion, but
arrival upon this earth of ice from external regions does seem
to be -- except that there must be, be it ever so faint, a
merger. It is in the notion that these masses of ice are only
congealed hailstones. We have data against this notion, as
applied to all our instances, but the explanation has been
offered, and, it seems to me, may apply in some instances. In
the Bull. Soc. Astro. de France, 20-245, it is said of blocks of
ice the size of decanters that had fallen at Tunis that they
were only masses of congealed hailstones.(29)

London Times, Aug. 4, 1857:(30)

That a block of ice, described as "pure" ice, weighing 25
pounds, had been found in the meadow of Mr. Warner, of
Cricklewood. There had been a storm the day before. As in some
of our other instances, no one had seen this object fall from
the sky. It was found after the storm: that's all that can be
said about it.

Letter from Capt. Blakiston, communicated by Gen. Sabine, to the
Royal Society (London Roy. Soc. Proc., 10-468):(31)

That, Jan. 14, 1860, in a thunderstorm, pieces of ice had fallen
upon Capt. Blakiston's vessel -- that it was not hail. "It was
not hail, but irregular shaped pieces of solid ice of different
dimensions, up to the size of half a brick."

According to the Advertiser-Scotsman, quoted by the Edinburgh
New Philosophical Magazine, 47-371, an irregular-shaped mass of
ice fell at Ord, Scotland, Aug., 1849, after "an extraordinary
peal of thunder."(32)

It is said that this was homogeneous ice, except in a small
part, which looked like congealed hailstones.

The mass was about 20 feet in circumference. [177/178]

The story, as told in the London Times, Aug. 14, 1849, is that,
upon the evening of the 13th of August, 1849, after a loud peal
of thunder, a mass of ice said to have been 20 feet in
circumference, had fallen upon the estate of Mr. Moffat, of
Balvullich, Ross-shire.(33) It is said that this object fell
alone, or without hailstones.

Altogether, though it is not so strong for the Super-Sargasso
Sea, I think this is one of our best expressions upon external
origins. That large blocks of ice could form in the moisture of
this earth's atmosphere is about as likely as that blocks of
stone could form in a dust whirl. Of course, if ice or water
comes to this earth from external sources, we think of at least
minute organisms in it, and on, with our data, to frogs, fishes;
on to anything that's thinkable, coming from external sources.
It's of great importance to us to accept that large lumps of ice
have fallen from the sky, but what we desire most -- perhaps
because of our interest in its archologic and paleontologic
treasures -- is now to be through with tentativeness and
probation, and to take the Super-Sargasso Sea into full
acceptance in our more advanced fold of the chosen of this
twentieth century.

In the Report of the British Association, 1855-37, it is said
that, at Poorhundur, India, Dec. 11, 1854, flat pieces of ice,
many of them weighing several pounds -- each, I suppose -- had
fallen from the sky.(34) They are described as "large
ice-flakes."

Vast fields of ice in the Super-Arctic regions, or strata, of
the Super-Sargasso Sea. When they break up, their fragments are
flake-like. In our acceptance, there are aerial ice-fields that
are remote from this earth; that break up, fragments grinding
against one another, rolling in vapor and water, of different
constituency in different regions, forming slowly as stratified
hailstones -- but that there are ice-fields near this earth,
that break up into just flat pieces of ice as cover any pond or
river when ice of a pond or river is broken, and are sometimes
soon precipitated to the earth, in this familiar flat formation.

Symons' Met. Mag., 43-154:(35)

A correspondent writes that, at Braemar, July 2, 1908, when the
sky was clear overhead, and the sun shining, pieces of ice fell
-- from somewhere. The sun was shining, but something was going
on somewhere: thunder was heard.

Until I saw the reproduction of a photograph in the Scientific
American, Feb. 21, 1914, I had supposed that these ice-fields
must be, say, at least ten to twenty miles away from this earth,
and [178/179] invisible, to terrestrial observers, except as the
blurs that have so often been reported by astronomers and
meteorologists.(36) The photograph published by the Scientific
American is of an aggregation supposed to be clouds, presumably
not very high, so clearly detailed they are. The writer says
that they looked to him like "a field of broken ice." Beneath is
a picture of a conventional field of ice, floating ordinarily in
the water. The resemblance between the two pictures is striking
-- nevertheless, it seems to me incredible that the first of the
photographs could be of an aerial ice-field, or that gravitation
could cease to act at only a mile or so from this earth's
surface --

Unless:

The exceptional: the flux and vagary of all things.

Or that normally this earth's gravitation extends, say, ten or
fifteen miles outward -- but that gravitation must be rhythmic.

Of course, in the pseudo-formulas of astronomers, gravitation as
a fixed quantity is essential. Accept that gravitation is a
variable force, and astronomers deflate, with a perceptible
hissing sound, into the punctured condition of economists,
biologists, meteorologists, and all others of the humbler
divinities, who can admittedly offer only insecure
approximations.

We refer all who would not like to hear the hiss of escaping
arrogance, to Herbert Spencer's chapters upon the rhythm of all
phenomena.

If everything else -- light from the stars, heat from the sun,
the winds and the tides; forms and colors and sizes of animals;
demands and supplies and prices; political opinions and chemic
reactions and religious doctrines and magnetic intensities and
the ticking of clocks; and the arrival and departure of the
seasons -- if everything else is variable, we accept that the
notion of gravitation as fixed and formulable is only another
attempted positivism, doomed, like all other illusions of
realness in quasi-existence. So it is intermediatism to accept
that, though gravitation may approximate higher to invariability
than do the winds, for instance, it must be somewhere between
the Absolutes of Stability and Instability. Here then we are not
much impressed with the opposition of physicists and
astronomers, fearing, a little mournfully, that their language
is of expiring sibilations.

So then the fields of ice in the sky, and that, though usually
so far away as to be mere blurs, at times they come close enough
to be seen in detail. For description of what I call a "blur,"
see Pop. Sci. [179/180] News, Feb., 1884 -- sky, in general,
unusually clear, but, near the sun, "a white, slightly curdled
haze, which was dazzlingly bright."(37)

We accept that sometimes fields of ice pass between the sun and
the earth: that many strata of ice, or very thick fields of ice,
or superimposed fields would obscure the sun -- that there have
been occasions when the sun was eclipsed by fields of ice:

Flammarion, "The Atmosphere," p. 394:(38)

That a profound darkness came upon the city of Brussels, June
18, 1839:

There fell flat pieces of ice, an inch long.

Intense darkness at Aitkin, Minn., April 2, 1889; sand and
"solid chunks of ice" reported to have fallen (Science, April
19, 1889).(39)

In Symons' Meteorological Magazine, 32-172, are outlined
rough-edged by smooth-surfaced pieces of ice that fell at
Manassas, Virginia, Aug. 10, 1897.(40) They look as much like
the roughly broken fragments of a smooth sheet of ice -- as ever
have roughly broken fragments of a smooth sheet of ice looked.
About two inches across, and one inch thick. In Cosmos, 3-116,
it is said that, at Rouen, July 5, 1853, fell irregular-shaped
pieces of ice, about the size of a hand, described as looking as
if all had been broken from one enormous block of ice.(41) That
I think, was an aerial iceberg. In the awful density, or almost
absolute stupidity of the 19th century, it never occurred to
anybody to look for traces of polar bears or of seals upon these
fragments.

Of course, seeing what we want to see, having been able to
gather these data only because they are in agreement with
notions formed in advance, we are not so respectful to our own
notions as to a similar impression forced upon an observer who
had no theory or acceptance to support. In general, our
prejudices see and our prejudices investigate, but this should
not be taken as an absolute.

Monthly Weather Review, July, 1894:(42)

That, from the Weather Bureau, of Portland, Oregon, a tornado,
of June 3, 1894, was reported.

Fragments of ice fell from the sky.

They averaged three to four inches square, and about an inch
thick. In length and breadth they had the smooth surfaces
required by our acceptance: and, according to the writer in the
Review, "gave the impression of a vast field of ice suspended in
the [180/181] atmosphere and suddenly broken into fragments
about the size of the palm of the hand."

This datum, profoundly of what we used to call the "damned," or
before we could no longer accept judgment, or cut and dried
condemnation by infants, turtles, and lambs, was copied--but
without comment -- in the Scientific American, 71-371.(43)

Our theology is something like this:

Of course we ought to be damned -- but we revolt against
adjudication by infants, turtles, and lambs.

We now come to some remarkable data in a rather difficult
department of super-geography. Vast fields of aerial ice.
There's a lesson to me in the treachery of the imaginable. Most
of our opposition is in the clearness with which the
conventional, but impossible, becomes the imaginable, and then
the resistant to modifications. After it had become the
conventional with me, I conceived clearly of vast sheets of ice,
a few miles above this earth -- then the shining of the sun, and
the ice partly melting -- that note upon the ice that fell at
Derby -- water trickling and forming icicles upon the lower
surface of the ice sheet. I seemed to look up and so clearly
visualized those icicles hanging like stalactites from a
flat-roofed cave, in white calcite. Or I looked up at the under
side of an aerial ice-lump, and seemed to see a papillation
similar to that observed by a calf at times. But then -- but
then -- if icicles should form upon the under side of a sheet of
aerial ice, that would be by the falling of water toward this
earth; an icicle is of course an expression of gravitation --
and, if water melting from ice should fall toward this earth,
why not the ice itself fall before an icicle could have time to
form? Of course, in quasi-existence, where everything is a
paradox, one might argue that the water falls, but the ice does
not, because ice is heavier -- that is, in masses. That notion,
I think, belongs in a more advanced course than we are taking at
the present.

Our expression upon icicles:

A vast field of aerial ice -- it is inert to this earth's
gravitation -- but by universal flux and variation, part of it
sags closer to this earth, and is susceptible to gravitation --
by cohesion with the main mass, this part does not fall, but
water melting from it does fall, and forms icicles -- then, by
various disturbances, this part sometimes falls in fragments
that are protrusive with icicles.

Of the ice that fell, some of it enclosing living frogs, at
Dubuque, Iowa, June 16, 1882, it is said (Monthly Weather
Review, June, [181/182] 1882), that there were pieces from one
to seventeen inches in circumference, the largest weighing one
pound and three-quarters -- that upon some of them were icicles
half an inch in length.(44) We emphasize that these objects were
not hailstones.

The only merger is that of knobby hailstones, or of large
hailstones with protuberances wrought by crystallization: but
that is no merger with terrestrial phenomena, and such
formations are unaccountable to orthodoxy; or it is incredible
that hail could so crystallize -- not forming by accretion -- in
the fall of a few seconds. For an account of such hailstones,
see Nature, 61-594.(45) Note the size -- "some of them the size
of turkeys' eggs."

It is our expression that sometimes the icicles themselves have
fallen, as if by concussion, or as if something had swept
against the under side of an aerial ice floe, detaching its
papillations.

Monthly Weather Review, June, 1889:(46)

That, at Oswego, N. Y., June 9, 1889, according to the Turin (N.
Y.) Leader, there fell, in a thunderstorm, pieces of ice that
"resembled the fragments of icicles."

Monthly Weather Review, 29-506:(47)

That on Florence Island, St. Lawrence River, Aug. 8, 1901, with
ordinary hail, fell pieces of ice "formed like icicles, the size
and shape of lead pencils had been cut into section about
three-eighths of an inch in length.

So our data of the Super-Sargasso Sea, and its Arctic region:
and, for weeks at a time, an ice field may hang motionless over
a part of this earth's surface -- the sun has some effect upon
it, but not much until late in the afternoon, I should say --
part of it has sagged, but is held up by cohesion with the main
mass -- whereupon we have such an occurrence as would have been
a little uncanny to us once upon a time -- or fall of water from
a cloudless sky, day after day, in one small part of the earth's
surface, late in the afternoon, when the sun's rays had had time
for their effects:

Monthly Weather Review, Oct., 1886:(48)

That, according to the Charlotte Chronicle, Oct. 21, 1886, for
three weeks there had been a fall of water from the sky, in
Charlotte, N. C., localized in one particular spot, every
afternoon, about three o'clock; that, whether the sky was cloudy
or cloudless, the water or rain fell upon a small patch of land
between two trees and nowhere else.

This is the newspaper account, and, as such, it seems in the
depths of the unchosen, either by me or any other expression of
the [182/183] Salvation Army. The account by the Signal Service
observer, at Charlotte, published in the Review, follows:

"An unusual phenomenon was witnessed on the 21st; having been
informed that for some weeks prior to date rain had been falling
daily after 3 p. m., on a particular spot, near two trees,
corner of 9th and D streets, I visited the place, and saw
precipitation in the form of rain drops at 4:47 and 4:55 p. m.,
while the sun was shining brightly. On the 22nd, I again visited
the place, and from 4:05 to 4:25 p. m., a light shower of rain
fell from a cloudless sky....Sometimes the precipitation falls
over an area of half an acre, but always appears to centre at
these two trees, and when lightest occurs there only." [183]

<snip>

Jeroen Kumeling
ufonet-subscribe@onelist.com







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 11

               Re: Mysteries of the New Millennium Convention

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:11:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:46:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Mysteries of the New Millennium Convention


 >Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:33:30 +0000
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Mysteries of the New Millennium Convention
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 15:50:02 +0000
 >>From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
 >>Subject: Mysteries of the New Millennium Convention
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Discovery UK and the British Paranormal Fortean Society are
 >>proud to present

<snip>

 >What is the British Pranormal Fortean Society? I'm British,
 >slightly Fortean, not in the least paranormal, but I've never
 >heard of it. More information please, Mr Mantle.

 >--
 >John Rimmer
 >Magonia Magazine
 >www.magonia.demon.co.uk

Dear John,

I've heard you described as many things but your own description
below is a new one on me. The anwer to your question is; I don't
know. I was simply forwarding on a message sent to me. Sorry.

All the best,

Philip.







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 11

               Re: Everything Before This Book A Confabulation

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:47:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:07:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Everything Before This Book A Confabulation


 >Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:28:14 +0000
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Everything Before This Book A Confabulation
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >JM wrote:

 >>>Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:26:51 -0500 (EST)
 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Subject: Everything Before This Book A Confabulation
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Having just a moment ago answered an email from a beloved Torre
 >>>on the other side of the Pond, a slightly gaga little puppy who
 >>>claimed (wait'll yous hear this) that he's "had some experience
 >>>with them grays..."). I mean, _really!_ Have you ever heard of
 >>>such drivel in all your life? This, I would expect from blonde
 >>>Englishpersons.

 >>>I heard that. I heard what you just said. "This man claimed
 >>>he's been abducted all his life, now he's laughing at someone
 >>>who just made the same claim?" Is this what UFO and abduction
 >>>research is all about? Is this what the subject has come to?
 >>>People just shaping and reshaping themselves as the wind blows?

 >Hi All,

 >Sorry but this has thrown me. Who is this person? Might be a
 >case of crossed wires here.

 >Roy..

Hello Roy,

 >Sorry but this has thrown me.

You've been "Grippled!" Comes from reading rambling, incoherent
posts that never make a point. Has the same mind numbing effect
as listening to a long political speech! :)

 >Who is this person?

It's a "Sybil" thing Roy. He signs off using several different
names. I'm still taking a count of the personalities myself.
<g>

 >Might be a case of crossed wires here.

"Fried wires" is more like it. Apparently the "Gripplemeister"
is laboring under the delusion that a large number of us have
nothing better to do with our time than play test audience for
his 'comedy' routines. Apparently talking to him about didn't
work, and will not stop him. Some folks just don't have any
internal sets of checks and balances. I hesitate to say more
for fear that he'll cry and threaten to take his ball home
again. Nuff said. ;)

To put an end to your confusion:

When you see one of the several names that he uses in the
header... use the 'delete' feature in your e-mail proggy. Works
for me dude! <lol>

John Velez,
Living for the day when _every_ post on UpDates offers
information and has relevance to the subject at hand.






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   Feb > Feb 12

                        Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000

From: George A. Filer,  Director <>Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:43:09 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 12:52:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000


Filer's Files #06 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,  Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
February 12, 2000,  Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020
Web Site at www.filersfiles.com -- Chuck Warren Webmaster.
THEORY OF EVOLUTION MINDSHIFT

The foundation for all scientific knowledge concerning life on
Earth is the belief in the Theory of Evolution.  I found I
could easily convince most people, that we were being visited
by alien life forms if they question that theory.  Those
hardest to convince are scientists and engineers whose bedrock
belief system accepts without question the Theory of Evolution.
They refused even to read these files.  If we assume for the
sake of argument, that this theory is wrong, our scientific
knowledge suddenly embraces the concept that intelligent life
spread from space to Earth.  For too long the Theory of
Evolution has been taught as fact and as an undeniable truth.
Scientists and educators have taught with fervor and passion
that all life originated on Earth.  Obviously there is some
evidence that species change to adapt to the situation around
them.  But it is a giant leap of faith to assume we all came
from some primeval ooze and gradually developed into complex
life forms.  I have had the luxury of seeing the complexity of
just one cell.  It is doubtful that life happened by chance.
The logical conclusion is that there was a Creator.  I receive
many letters from scientists who claim to be experts in the
field of genetics, who admit they are afraid to speak up.  They
are frankly afraid of losing their jobs, if they verbalize
their own findings that the Theory of Evolution is in error.

Recently Oklahoma ordered publishers to include a disclaimer
about the theory in their biology books.  The disclaimer about
evolution is that it is "unproven belief that random undirected
forces produced a world of living things."  The statement
continues by saying, "No one was present when life first
appeared on Earth.  Therefore any statement about life's
origins should be considered theory, not fact."  Governor Frank
Keating as taken a lot of heat for appointing a Textbook
Committee that feels that the theory is questionable, but 700
teachers have backed him.

Astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell in his book, "The Way of the
Explorer, discusses what he calls the Dyadic Model, a way to
deal with knowledge, existence, and our knowledge of our
existence.  "The previous notion in science was that the
Universe was a giant accident and that it would be too much of
an accident for life to have formed and become intelligent
life, in more than one place at a time.  To science, that would
be too much of an accident.  " It view is clearly wrong and
science has to revise its notion and accept the fact that
whatever process has brought us into being has brought life
into being throughout the Universe.  Now that we look back on
it, it sounds silly that throughout our history, until the last
two or three decades, we really believed we were alone in the
Universe.  Now that we see beyond that, we see how archaic
these types of ideas are."

My point is that once main stream science understands there are
serious problems with the Theory of Evolution they will be able
to see the UFOs in our skies.  The mindshift, the awakening is
coming soon!

SHUTTLE VIDEOTAPES UFOs

I have been reviewing the videotape of several shuttle missions
such as the Discovery flight of last June.  The tape shows a
series of Unidentified Flying Objects moving at tremendous
speeds at an estimated ten miles above the Earth's surface.
They apparently fly just above large thunderstorms and far
below the shuttle that is orbiting at 230 miles above the
Earth.  My calculations indicate the speed of the faster UFOs
are a startling 100,000 miles per hour.  One UFO flies from
Tallahassee to Pensacola, Florida a distance of 195 miles in
seven seconds.  The Discovery Shuttle this summer was orbiting
Earth and heavy storm was over the Atlantic Ocean off the US
East Coast.  The thunderstorms seem almost to explode with
bursts of heavy lightning in the night sky far below.  I
counted four lighted and sometime blinking objects moving
across the screen.  The lighted objects move east to west and
north to south fairly quickly until they reach the
thunderstorms where they seem to stop and hover.  Its possible
these objects are a natural phenomenon generated by the
thunderstorms themselves.  However, they appear to come from
north and east of the thunderstorms and move to them where they
seem to take on electrical energy.  NASA spokesman often claim
these are simply ice crystals.

Astronaut Joseph P. Allen with Ph.D. from Yale in physics wrote
the book, Entering Space an Astronaut's Odyssey explains the
shuttle orbits the Earth at a speed of 17,500 mph.  The
orbiting shuttle is maneuvered in space by a total of
forty-four thrusters, or minirockets, located in the orbiter's
nose and tail of the reaction-control system.  Six of the
thrusters are vernier jets small thrusters that slowly and
quietly move the hundred-ton machine to new attitudes.  The
remaining thirty eight thrusters are primary jets, which are
not silent.  These are used for more rapid rotations and for
translation maneuvers - - straight-line movements of the
orbiter, forward or back, left, or right, up or down.  The
orbiter reacts to the primaries' shove by shaking slightly and
by moving very noticeably.

During the videos there is no indication these minirockets are
firing.  Further most of the UFOs do not seem to be blown away
from the shuttle, but come into the picture from opposite
direction.  I spent hours analyzing the photos and I do not
feel the bulk of the unidentified objects can be explained by
the simple explanation that they are floating ice crystals or
parts of shuttle being blown across the screen in various
directions.  Close examination of the video indicates the UFOs
are entering the video hundreds of miles away form the shuttle,
obviously much too far away to be effected by the orbiter's
rockets.  Thanks to Tom Sheets and ISUR for providing the
videos.  Editor's note: The UFOs are moving along the 30th
degree parallel at high speed towards Shanghai, China and
Cairo, Egypt that also report recent UFO sightings.  At this
time my web site does not have the resources to show these
videos to the reader.

MASSACHUSETTS WOMAN SEES A UFO

NEW BEDFORD -- On Thursday, February 3, 2000, at 10:15 p.m.,
eyewitness Michele N. glanced through a window of her home in
New Bedford, Massachusetts (population 100,000) and spotted a
UFO passing slowly over the neighborhood.  "It was a circular
object with a red flashing light," she reported, "I had it in
sight for several minutes."  According to the witness, the
large disc-shaped UFO came from the south over Mount Hope Bay.
Crossing the shoreline, it flew northward over Brockton Park
and Tramline Hill, moving roughly parallel to Ashley Boulevard,
before it went out of sight.  New Bedford, a prominent whaling
port in the early Nineteenth Century, is located 58 miles south
of Boston.  Thanks to UFO Roundup Vol. 5 #6   2/10/00 Editor:
Joseph Trainor

FLORIDA

WINTER HAVEN -- On February 7, 2000, ISUR received reports from
two different witnesses of an orange circular light stationary
in the eastern sky.  JB reports that between 8 and 8:45 PM, two
and then three lights would also appear.  These looked similar
to rockets being fired from Cape Canaveral at night, but the
location was to the south and inland of the Cape.  The witness
contacted NASA, who reported no launches during that time
period.  The witness reportedly videotaped the event.  Another
witness in Jupiter, Florida and observed a black disc in the
sky to the NNE.  It appeared to be traveling at about 200 mph,
about 1 or 2 miles away, He estimated the disc to be 50 to 100
feet in diameter and very thin.  It traveled 'on edge,'
resembling a dinner plate.  It also appeared to be wobbling,
and the witness thought it might have been out of control.  The
witness reported this event to ISUR within 3 hours of the
sighting.  Both cases were referred to Bland Pugh, the Florida
MUFON State Director.

GEORGIA DID YOU HEAR THE BOOM?

COLUMBUS -- Neither City authorities nor Ft. Benning officials
could explain the loud 'boom' that shook the area about 5:20
p.m. February 5, 2000.  Many concerned callers directed their
inquiries to Ft. Benning officials and Columbus 911 searching
for answers. "We don't believe it was anything on Fort Benning,"
said Captain John Hollar.  "What a lot of people outside are
saying is that it was a sonic boom.  But we had no planes in
the area."  A 911 dispatcher said she had four calls since
arriving to work two hours after the incident."  But they got a
lot more earlier."  There have been no reports of injuries or
explanations of what may have caused the boom.  The boom was
also felt and heard in Alabama and is similar to one heard on
August 2, 1999, that included UFO sightings. The usual suspect,
the military have denied it was their aircraft.  Seismic
earthquake activity was not detected, so a sonic boom is most
likely responsible.  A full investigation was made of the
8/2/99 blast and  was submitted to GEMA Thanks to John
Thompson.  Editor's Note: I'm beginning to think these booms
may be tied to UFOs under certain circumstances.  Those UFOs
passing over at 100,000 mph would not be seen, but they might
be heard as booms.

MINNESOTA MULTICOLORED UFO SEEN

ELK RIVER -- On January 28, at 9:00 PM and again on January 29,
2000, at 5:30 AM, residents spied an unusual object with bright
multicolored lights hovering near their homes.  "We first
noticed a bright red light in the sky," Denise M. reported.
"At first I thought it was a jet since we have jets that pass
over making their descent into Minneapolis-St. Paul
International Airport.  The UFO approached from the east and
hovered.  The longer I watched, I realized it was not moving.
I got my binoculars and I could see it had white lights that
ran around the bottom of the object, and blue, green and red
lights were flashing from the top."  I watched for 45 minutes
before it moved to the south, then hovered in that position."
I called a neighbor to verify what I was seeing.  He looked
through the binoculars and agreed he had never seen anything
like it.  A few minutes later it disappeared to the southeast
quite slowly."  Thanks to UFO Roundup Vol. 5 #5 2/3,/00
Editor: Joseph Trainor  Masinaigan@aol.com

COLORADO

ARLINGTON -- Dannyk1 writes in the autumn of 1991, I was
driving east on Highway 36 when I spotted two lights in the sky
to my left.  I first thought they were wing lights on a
low-flying B-52, but I realized the lights were hovering on
either end of an immense object.  I then noticed a bright
halogen light following me down the highway.  I decided not to
turn toward the large mystery object because my daughter was
sleeping in the back seat and I did not want to endanger her.
I have to admit I was getting a bit panicky. This continued for
several more minutes until the headlights of an oncoming car
suddenly appeared ahead of me at Haswell, some 15 or so miles
distant and the highest point in the county, so high you can
glimpse the distant Rocky Mountains.  When the other car
suddenly appeared the white light behind suddenly stopped and
seemed to recede in the distance as I continued to speed
eastward.  I mentioned my sighting to the county sheriff, who
had spent many nights a decade earlier chasing cattle
mutilations.  He accepted my comments at face value, but
revealed he was glad I had not turned off toward the mystery
object.  He said it might have been associated with a drug drop
and that I likely would have been shot at with sophisticated
laser weapons had I ventured toward it.

CALIFORNIA EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT?

EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE -- Billy Dee's contact reports on
February 8, 2000, that the last three nights have been active
with flights of fighters, helicopters, and transports doing
night drops.  In addition I was watching a strange object going
in one direction and abruptly reverse course.  It's lighting
was randomly changing from flashing to non-flashing red and
green lights, bright white light, and sometimes no lights at
all.  The object flew almost directly over the house.  Imagine
my surprise to hear a small engine!  My wife and I watched as
it flew over, still randomly changing it's lighting pattern.
Last night, just after sundown, I saw this same plane take off
from Edwards again and head directly towards me with extremely
bright white light, and two red lights.  I called out two
family members and we all watched as it flew overhead.  Because
it wasn't quite dark yet, I was able to see through binoculars
that it was a small ultralight with an open cockpit, fixed
wings, and the engine behind the cockpit.  It had a pole
projecting forward with different colored lights attached.
There were also lights on the end of both wings and the rear.
All of these light s could randomly change color, from red, to
green, to bright white, or none at all.  We watched for twenty
minutes as constantly changed the configuration of its
lighting.  It appears designed to confuse.  Thanks to
BillyDee@ufossi.org.  Editors Note: It does appear they are
testing various light configurations possibly in an attempt to
fool enemy antiaircraft gunners.  With the advent of stealth
aircraft that are almost invisible to radar, enemy gunners
often must rely on visual recognition of a target.  Various
lighting patterns can confuse attempts to down our aircraft.

SAN FRANCISCO -- On the evening of Super Bowl Sunday, January
30, 2000, I was hauling up a line of crab traps off Farlon
Island aboard our 25' boat.  My dog started to bark furiously.
I looked up and saw a huge triangular object hovering above
with NO sound.  I was hit by a beam of white light and fell
backward.  I grabbed my Ruger 10-22 rifle loaded with a 100
round banana magazine and stared firing as fast as I could
until the clip was empty.  I was able to shoot out the light.
While grabbing for a second clip, I saw a hatch open up on the
bottom side of the object and two people leaned down to yell,
"STOP SHOOTING AT US YOU IDIOT."  The only other noise I heard
was a hissing sound like air escaping from a flat tire.  As the
object moved off to the south, I saw a helicopter come out off
the top and move in next to my boat about 20 feet off the water
and only feet away.  Someone in the side door held up a camera
and the flash shot off a picture of me in the boat holding the
rifle.  The helicopter made no noise and had no markings on it.
It was solid flat black as was the huge Triangle.  The chopper
then took off toward the Golden Gate Bridge climbing up.  The
Triangle slowing gained altitude and was last seen heading
south.  At first I thought it was an alien UFO and was
genuinely startled by it.  However, I now believe it was an
experimental military platform for transporting a small fleet
of black helicopters that leave and enter out of the top of a
huge silent floating triangle the size of a football field.  A
rigid airship if you will.  (NUFORC noted: This may be the
first report we have received that has the occupants of such a
craft using a camera with a flash attachment.) Thanks to Peter
Davenport at www.ufocenter.com.

PETALUMA -- On January 24, 2000, a disk shaped object was first
spotted by two retired merchants and a writer.  The three
witnesses stopped their car and watched for two to three minutes
from outside their car until 6:11 PM.  The UFO was observed
moving from south to north at moderate speed until it was
obscured by buildings near the horizon.  The object was a dull
silver metallic color and saucer shaped about as tall as wide.
It was about the size of a pea at arm's length.  Its shape was
like two cones, joined at the rims, but with the tips
truncated, so that it appeared somewhat saucer-shaped, but
about as tall as it was wide.  Several short, dark rods were
seen near the bottom, arranged radially, with respect to the
center of the object.  The weather was overcast, the light
level rather low.

NOVA SCOTIA TRIANGLE

GLACE BAY -- Eugene H. Frison Nova Scotia MUFON Provincial
Director writes that Jeff, a 17 year old paperboy began his
route at 6:15 AM on January 24, 2000.  He cut through a
graveyard to save time and realized something wasn't right as
there was a high-pitched whining sound riding the wind.  Upon
reaching the center of the graveyard, he became aware of a
tall, dark object coming up behind him and, at first, assumed
it was a person walking fast.  However, as it passed him at his
side (within about three feet) he realized that it was much
taller than any person.  It was instead a black triangular
shaped object with no apparent features. He says it was
definitely solid and as it passed him his scalp became very
hot. Once it had moved out in front of him, it then increased
its speed and veered off on an angle, crossing the entire
graveyard in about ten seconds.  He says he was surprised at
how fast it could move.  Jeff relates he watched the object
skim over a tombstone and realized at that point it was gliding
just above the ground, not moving along it.  The object was
very tall but not very wide -- just a bit wider than a large
adult across the shoulders at its widest point.  It was a
definite triangular shape with rounded edges.  At that hour of
the morning, it was still dark but there was enough light
coming from a street light located in the graveyard to be
certain of what he had witnessed.  Jeff is one month away from
his seventeenth birthday.  The incident is still being
investigated by myself at the present time! Thanks to Eugene H.
Frison Nova Scotia MUFON Provincial Director

CANADA AND ALASKA GIANT UFO

The MUFON Journal February 2000 carried an article concerning a
huge UFO hovering over Fox Lake in the Yukon Territory, Canada
on December 11, 1996.  The circular craft appears something
like a walnut in the photos drawn by 22 witnesses.  The giant
craft was believed to be to be from a half mile to over a mile
in diameter based on triangulation calculations and the
testimony of the witnesses.  There are no known flying objects
this large on Earth.  One of the sightings that most influenced
my own interest in UFOs was that of Captain Kanji Teach and
Japanese airline Flight 1628.  The crew spotted a giant similar
shaped UFO on November 17, 1986.  The Japanese pilots noticed
some unusual lights accompanying their 747 aircraft that
approached very close.  They caught a brief glimpse of the main
object's walnut-shaped silhouette and judged it to be "two
times bigger than an aircraft carrier or 2,000 feet long."  The
pilot was instructed by air traffic control to descend to 4,000
feet and make turns, but the object continued to follow the
plane for 32 minutes before vanishing.

The FAA admitted the objects were tracked on radar, but had not
registered on the radar tapes.  The FAA investigated and found
the crews to be normal and rational.  I have flown this Pacific
Ocean route on many occasions and you can often see other
flights ahead and behind you.  I did some checking and TWA
pilots were flying further south along the Alaskan Coast and
also saw the huge UFO.  Whenever there is a verified airborne
sighting it is prudent to attempt to determine what other
aircraft are likely to be in the area.  Airline pilots are
generally told not to talk to the news media but they will
often reveal sightings to investigators.  The FAA will seldom
if ever admit they have a UFO on radar.  Even when an aircrew
has one in sight, they will not admit it is on the radar but
they will divert you from a midair collision.  It appears the
huge walnut UFO apparently has made its appearance once again.
We have aircrews and 22 ground witnesses who seem to be
describing a craft so large that it is unlikely to be from
Earth.  I encourage you to get the MUFON Journal and read this
entire story by Martin Jasek a civil engineer and MUFON
investigator.

UNITED KINGDOM

EAST KILBRIDE - Three members of the East Kilbride UFO group
claim they had a sighting January 29, 2000, of a bright light
which landed.  Around this light 15 to 20 figures emerged.
They have all this on videotape, one exceptionally good shot
shows part of a 'creature' caught in a car headlight.  His
members claim they have forwarded the footage onto UFO Magazine
for examination.  Thanks to MarkFraser  and the Ayrshire UFOs
at http://www.killie.totalserve.co.uk/ufo.htm

WORCHESTER -- "A woman struggling to sleep saw a UFO land 30
miles south west of Birmingham.  Georgina Wells said she saw a
glowing object which hovered in the sky for more than an hour
at 2:00 AM Thursday [Feb. 3].  The 20-year-old said she saw the
"extremely bright" egg shape from her third floor bedroom
window at the back of her Bransford Road home.  But she said
she was amazed to see the glowing yellow object, which she
claims had a helicopter next to it the whole time, begin to
descend.  "It got lower and lower then it stopped glowing," she
said.  "I'm convinced it landed but I don't know where. But
minutes later it came back into view and was really bright
again and shot off into the sky and vanished. I have never seen
anything go that fast before."  Miss Wells, who was awake
because of a cold, added she had not taken any medicine, which
could cause her to hallucinate, nor was it a dream.  "I was
awake because I could not stop coughing," she said.  "I stood
up and watched it.  It was not a police helicopter with its
spotlight as there was no light-beam. Worchester Journal of
February 7, 2000.

POSSIBLE LINK TO ALIEN PANELS AND ROSWELL

NIEL MORRIS from University of Manchester in England has been
studying the Roswell debris photographs taken by J. Bond
Johnson in July of 1947 in General Ramey's office.  This is the
only known physical evidence of what crashed near Roswell.
Niel also examined the Alien Autopsy film that allegedly shows
the imprints of a six fingered alien control panel and alien
writing.  Many researchers feel this film is a fraud or
counterintelligence scheme.

Niel Morris writes, "During the early stages of the
reexamination of the Fort Worth photographs it became
increasingly apparent that the debris contained markings laid
out in a regular fashion.  This can be seen even on very
damaged beams, that the "symbols" maintain a regular layout."
I tried to match them with known characters used in both
ancient and modern written languages.  Some of the symbols
appeared much like those used by the early Egyptians but many
others did not seem to match anything that could be found on
Earth.  I also attempted to match these symbols with those
witnesses who had encounters with UFOs, but again no matches
were found.

I was well aware of the Alien Autopsy film and symbols seen on
beams displayed in the film that appeared in the UK early in
1995.  I examined some good quality prints of the beams from
the Alien Autopsy debris footage.  While I examined one of
these images at high magnification, off to one side of the
image, away from the main debris on show in the frame, my eye
was attracted to a regular pattern in the dark background of
the photograph.  The regular pattern of an Alien Autopsy
"symbol" had seen just a few minutes earlier was matched the
symbols in the Fort Worth debris! These findings will no doubt
prove to be highly contentious but it does not change the
content of the images and their similarity of form and style.
Before being dismissed these points have to be credibly
answered.  If that cannot be done then we have to contend with
the distinct possibility that (a) at least a portion of the AA
Film, The Debris Footage, could very well be a historical
record of events.  (b) The debris seen in the Fort Worth
photographs and that seen in the Alien Autopsy debris footage
once shared a common source.

The linkage hinges on the fact that unknown and only recently
discovered features in BOTH sets of images match, and that as
one of these sets of images (the Fort Worth Photographs) has a
proven history dating back to the day the photographs were
taken and developed on the 8th July 1947.  They are a factual
historical document.  The logic then is that "undiscovered"
features within these images could not be known to post 1947
"hoaxers" for inclusion in a later "fake."  Hence IF matching
features, both "undiscovered" until now, were found in the
"test" document there is a very high probability they too
originated from a contemporary 1947 source.  Bearing in mind we
are speaking of "unique" symbol features so far untraced
elsewhere.  To my knowledge the features I discovered twelve
months ago in both sets of images had never been noted or
reported.  I assume this is because no one has ever seen them
before.  I leave the final judgment to you, I myself find the
evidence compelling.  Thanks to Neil Morris.  Please visit his
website for more details at:
http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/aalink/index.htm or  at
www.filersfiles.com.

PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO shots available and
data on their propulsion systems. $10.00

US GOVERNMENT UFO PROOF RELEASED: Audio tapes of a genuine UFO
Alert at Edwards Air Force base and studied by the Foreign
Technology Division at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, are now
available for distribution to the public.  Sam Sherman's audio
documentary tape called EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE ENCOUNTER on the
night of October 7, 1965, uses the actual voice recordings
provided by the Air Force.  During this event 12 high tech
luminous UFOs invade secure air space and came down low over
the runways at Edwards AFB.  Tower operator Sgt. Chuck Sorrels
spotted them and notified the Air Defense Command.  Sgt.
Sorrels is heard on the original tapes and in a new segment
where he verifies the event as it is heard on the archival
recordings.  The UFOs are described and a decision is made to
launch F-106 fighter interceptors.  You are there for an
important part of UFO history.  Hear it for yourself, it's the
best UFO tape ever made.  Tape cost is $14.95 each plus $2.00
for shipping -- total $16.95 -- (for overseas orders-out of US
- add $6.00 shipping cost -- total -- $20.95) you can send
either a personal check or money order to: Independent
International Pictures Corp, Box 565, Dept. GF, Old Bridge, New
Jersey 08857.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe by contacting Mufon@aol.com. Mention I
recommended you for membership.  Filer's Files is Copyrighted
2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
items from the Files on their Web Sites provided that they
credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date
of issue that the item appeared.  Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com.  Sending mail automatically grants
permission for us to publish. Please state if you wish to keep
your name or story confidential,











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   Feb > Feb 12

                          Filer's Files #06 -- 2000

From: George A. Filer,  Director <>Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:43:09 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 13:05:57 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000


Filer's Files #06 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,  Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
February 12, 2000,  Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020
Web Site at www.filersfiles.com -- Chuck Warren Webmaster.
THEORY OF EVOLUTION MINDSHIFT

The foundation for all scientific knowledge concerning life on
Earth is the belief in the Theory of Evolution.  I found I
could easily convince most people, that we were being visited
by alien life forms if they question that theory.  Those
hardest to convince are scientists and engineers whose bedrock
belief system accepts without question the Theory of Evolution.
They refused even to read these files.  If we assume for the
sake of argument, that this theory is wrong, our scientific
knowledge suddenly embraces the concept that intelligent life
spread from space to Earth.  For too long the Theory of
Evolution has been taught as fact and as an undeniable truth.
Scientists and educators have taught with fervor and passion
that all life originated on Earth.  Obviously there is some
evidence that species change to adapt to the situation around
them.  But it is a giant leap of faith to assume we all came
from some primeval ooze and gradually developed into complex
life forms.  I have had the luxury of seeing the complexity of
just one cell.  It is doubtful that life happened by chance.
The logical conclusion is that there was a Creator.  I receive
many letters from scientists who claim to be experts in the
field of genetics, who admit they are afraid to speak up.  They
are frankly afraid of losing their jobs, if they verbalize
their own findings that the Theory of Evolution is in error.

Recently Oklahoma ordered publishers to include a disclaimer
about the theory in their biology books.  The disclaimer about
evolution is that it is "unproven belief that random undirected
forces produced a world of living things."  The statement
continues by saying, "No one was present when life first
appeared on Earth.  Therefore any statement about life's
origins should be considered theory, not fact."  Governor Frank
Keating as taken a lot of heat for appointing a Textbook
Committee that feels that the theory is questionable, but 700
teachers have backed him.

Astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell in his book, "The Way of the
Explorer, discusses what he calls the Dyadic Model, a way to
deal with knowledge, existence, and our knowledge of our
existence.  "The previous notion in science was that the
Universe was a giant accident and that it would be too much of
an accident for life to have formed and become intelligent
life, in more than one place at a time.  To science, that would
be too much of an accident.  " It view is clearly wrong and
science has to revise its notion and accept the fact that
whatever process has brought us into being has brought life
into being throughout the Universe.  Now that we look back on
it, it sounds silly that throughout our history, until the last
two or three decades, we really believed we were alone in the
Universe.  Now that we see beyond that, we see how archaic
these types of ideas are."

My point is that once main stream science understands there are
serious problems with the Theory of Evolution they will be able
to see the UFOs in our skies.  The mindshift, the awakening is
coming soon!

SHUTTLE VIDEOTAPES UFOs

I have been reviewing the videotape of several shuttle missions
such as the Discovery flight of last June.  The tape shows a
series of Unidentified Flying Objects moving at tremendous
speeds at an estimated ten miles above the Earth's surface.
They apparently fly just above large thunderstorms and far
below the shuttle that is orbiting at 230 miles above the
Earth.  My calculations indicate the speed of the faster UFOs
are a startling 100,000 miles per hour.  One UFO flies from
Tallahassee to Pensacola, Florida a distance of 195 miles in
seven seconds.  The Discovery Shuttle this summer was orbiting
Earth and heavy storm was over the Atlantic Ocean off the US
East Coast.  The thunderstorms seem almost to explode with
bursts of heavy lightning in the night sky far below.  I
counted four lighted and sometime blinking objects moving
across the screen.  The lighted objects move east to west and
north to south fairly quickly until they reach the
thunderstorms where they seem to stop and hover.  Its possible
these objects are a natural phenomenon generated by the
thunderstorms themselves.  However, they appear to come from
north and east of the thunderstorms and move to them where they
seem to take on electrical energy.  NASA spokesman often claim
these are simply ice crystals.

Astronaut Joseph P. Allen with Ph.D. from Yale in physics wrote
the book, Entering Space an Astronaut's Odyssey explains the
shuttle orbits the Earth at a speed of 17,500 mph.  The
orbiting shuttle is maneuvered in space by a total of
forty-four thrusters, or minirockets, located in the orbiter's
nose and tail of the reaction-control system.  Six of the
thrusters are vernier jets small thrusters that slowly and
quietly move the hundred-ton machine to new attitudes.  The
remaining thirty eight thrusters are primary jets, which are
not silent.  These are used for more rapid rotations and for
translation maneuvers - - straight-line movements of the
orbiter, forward or back, left, or right, up or down.  The
orbiter reacts to the primaries' shove by shaking slightly and
by moving very noticeably.

During the videos there is no indication these minirockets are
firing.  Further most of the UFOs do not seem to be blown away
from the shuttle, but come into the picture from opposite
direction.  I spent hours analyzing the photos and I do not
feel the bulk of the unidentified objects can be explained by
the simple explanation that they are floating ice crystals or
parts of shuttle being blown across the screen in various
directions.  Close examination of the video indicates the UFOs
are entering the video hundreds of miles away form the shuttle,
obviously much too far away to be effected by the orbiter's
rockets.  Thanks to Tom Sheets and ISUR for providing the
videos.  Editor's note: The UFOs are moving along the 30th
degree parallel at high speed towards Shanghai, China and
Cairo, Egypt that also report recent UFO sightings.  At this
time my web site does not have the resources to show these
videos to the reader.

MASSACHUSETTS WOMAN SEES A UFO

NEW BEDFORD -- On Thursday, February 3, 2000, at 10:15 p.m.,
eyewitness Michele N. glanced through a window of her home in
New Bedford, Massachusetts (population 100,000) and spotted a
UFO passing slowly over the neighborhood.  "It was a circular
object with a red flashing light," she reported, "I had it in
sight for several minutes."  According to the witness, the
large disc-shaped UFO came from the south over Mount Hope Bay.
Crossing the shoreline, it flew northward over Brockton Park
and Tramline Hill, moving roughly parallel to Ashley Boulevard,
before it went out of sight.  New Bedford, a prominent whaling
port in the early Nineteenth Century, is located 58 miles south
of Boston.  Thanks to UFO Roundup Vol. 5 #6   2/10/00 Editor:
Joseph Trainor

FLORIDA

WINTER HAVEN -- On February 7, 2000, ISUR received reports from
two different witnesses of an orange circular light stationary
in the eastern sky.  JB reports that between 8 and 8:45 PM, two
and then three lights would also appear.  These looked similar
to rockets being fired from Cape Canaveral at night, but the
location was to the south and inland of the Cape.  The witness
contacted NASA, who reported no launches during that time
period.  The witness reportedly videotaped the event.  Another
witness in Jupiter, Florida and observed a black disc in the
sky to the NNE.  It appeared to be traveling at about 200 mph,
about 1 or 2 miles away, He estimated the disc to be 50 to 100
feet in diameter and very thin.  It traveled 'on edge,'
resembling a dinner plate.  It also appeared to be wobbling,
and the witness thought it might have been out of control.  The
witness reported this event to ISUR within 3 hours of the
sighting.  Both cases were referred to Bland Pugh, the Florida
MUFON State Director.

GEORGIA DID YOU HEAR THE BOOM?

COLUMBUS -- Neither City authorities nor Ft. Benning officials
could explain the loud 'boom' that shook the area about 5:20
p.m. February 5, 2000.  Many concerned callers directed their
inquiries to Ft. Benning officials and Columbus 911 searching
for answers. "We don't believe it was anything on Fort Benning,"
said Captain John Hollar.  "What a lot of people outside are
saying is that it was a sonic boom.  But we had no planes in
the area."  A 911 dispatcher said she had four calls since
arriving to work two hours after the incident."  But they got a
lot more earlier."  There have been no reports of injuries or
explanations of what may have caused the boom.  The boom was
also felt and heard in Alabama and is similar to one heard on
August 2, 1999, that included UFO sightings. The usual suspect,
the military have denied it was their aircraft.  Seismic
earthquake activity was not detected, so a sonic boom is most
likely responsible.  A full investigation was made of the
8/2/99 blast and  was submitted to GEMA Thanks to John
Thompson.  Editor's Note: I'm beginning to think these booms
may be tied to UFOs under certain circumstances.  Those UFOs
passing over at 100,000 mph would not be seen, but they might
be heard as booms.

MINNESOTA MULTICOLORED UFO SEEN

ELK RIVER -- On January 28, at 9:00 PM and again on January 29,
2000, at 5:30 AM, residents spied an unusual object with bright
multicolored lights hovering near their homes.  "We first
noticed a bright red light in the sky," Denise M. reported.
"At first I thought it was a jet since we have jets that pass
over making their descent into Minneapolis-St. Paul
International Airport.  The UFO approached from the east and
hovered.  The longer I watched, I realized it was not moving.
I got my binoculars and I could see it had white lights that
ran around the bottom of the object, and blue, green and red
lights were flashing from the top."  I watched for 45 minutes
before it moved to the south, then hovered in that position."
I called a neighbor to verify what I was seeing.  He looked
through the binoculars and agreed he had never seen anything
like it.  A few minutes later it disappeared to the southeast
quite slowly."  Thanks to UFO Roundup Vol. 5 #5 2/3,/00
Editor: Joseph Trainor  Masinaigan@aol.com

COLORADO

ARLINGTON -- Dannyk1 writes in the autumn of 1991, I was
driving east on Highway 36 when I spotted two lights in the sky
to my left.  I first thought they were wing lights on a
low-flying B-52, but I realized the lights were hovering on
either end of an immense object.  I then noticed a bright
halogen light following me down the highway.  I decided not to
turn toward the large mystery object because my daughter was
sleeping in the back seat and I did not want to endanger her.
I have to admit I was getting a bit panicky. This continued for
several more minutes until the headlights of an oncoming car
suddenly appeared ahead of me at Haswell, some 15 or so miles
distant and the highest point in the county, so high you can
glimpse the distant Rocky Mountains.  When the other car
suddenly appeared the white light behind suddenly stopped and
seemed to recede in the distance as I continued to speed
eastward.  I mentioned my sighting to the county sheriff, who
had spent many nights a decade earlier chasing cattle
mutilations.  He accepted my comments at face value, but
revealed he was glad I had not turned off toward the mystery
object.  He said it might have been associated with a drug drop
and that I likely would have been shot at with sophisticated
laser weapons had I ventured toward it.

CALIFORNIA EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT?

EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE -- Billy Dee's contact reports on
February 8, 2000, that the last three nights have been active
with flights of fighters, helicopters, and transports doing
night drops.  In addition I was watching a strange object going
in one direction and abruptly reverse course.  It's lighting
was randomly changing from flashing to non-flashing red and
green lights, bright white light, and sometimes no lights at
all.  The object flew almost directly over the house.  Imagine
my surprise to hear a small engine!  My wife and I watched as
it flew over, still randomly changing it's lighting pattern.
Last night, just after sundown, I saw this same plane take off
from Edwards again and head directly towards me with extremely
bright white light, and two red lights.  I called out two
family members and we all watched as it flew overhead.  Because
it wasn't quite dark yet, I was able to see through binoculars
that it was a small ultralight with an open cockpit, fixed
wings, and the engine behind the cockpit.  It had a pole
projecting forward with different colored lights attached.
There were also lights on the end of both wings and the rear.
All of these light s could randomly change color, from red, to
green, to bright white, or none at all.  We watched for twenty
minutes as constantly changed the configuration of its
lighting.  It appears designed to confuse.  Thanks to
BillyDee@ufossi.org.  Editors Note: It does appear they are
testing various light configurations possibly in an attempt to
fool enemy antiaircraft gunners.  With the advent of stealth
aircraft that are almost invisible to radar, enemy gunners
often must rely on visual recognition of a target.  Various
lighting patterns can confuse attempts to down our aircraft.

SAN FRANCISCO -- On the evening of Super Bowl Sunday, January
30, 2000, I was hauling up a line of crab traps off Farlon
Island aboard our 25' boat.  My dog started to bark furiously.
I looked up and saw a huge triangular object hovering above
with NO sound.  I was hit by a beam of white light and fell
backward.  I grabbed my Ruger 10-22 rifle loaded with a 100
round banana magazine and stared firing as fast as I could
until the clip was empty.  I was able to shoot out the light.
While grabbing for a second clip, I saw a hatch open up on the
bottom side of the object and two people leaned down to yell,
"STOP SHOOTING AT US YOU IDIOT."  The only other noise I heard
was a hissing sound like air escaping from a flat tire.  As the
object moved off to the south, I saw a helicopter come out off
the top and move in next to my boat about 20 feet off the water
and only feet away.  Someone in the side door held up a camera
and the flash shot off a picture of me in the boat holding the
rifle.  The helicopter made no noise and had no markings on it.
It was solid flat black as was the huge Triangle.  The chopper
then took off toward the Golden Gate Bridge climbing up.  The
Triangle slowing gained altitude and was last seen heading
south.  At first I thought it was an alien UFO and was
genuinely startled by it.  However, I now believe it was an
experimental military platform for transporting a small fleet
of black helicopters that leave and enter out of the top of a
huge silent floating triangle the size of a football field.  A
rigid airship if you will.  (NUFORC noted: This may be the
first report we have received that has the occupants of such a
craft using a camera with a flash attachment.) Thanks to Peter
Davenport at www.ufocenter.com.

PETALUMA -- On January 24, 2000, a disk shaped object was first
spotted by two retired merchants and a writer.  The three
witnesses stopped their car and watched for two to three minutes
from outside their car until 6:11 PM.  The UFO was observed
moving from south to north at moderate speed until it was
obscured by buildings near the horizon.  The object was a dull
silver metallic color and saucer shaped about as tall as wide.
It was about the size of a pea at arm's length.  Its shape was
like two cones, joined at the rims, but with the tips
truncated, so that it appeared somewhat saucer-shaped, but
about as tall as it was wide.  Several short, dark rods were
seen near the bottom, arranged radially, with respect to the
center of the object.  The weather was overcast, the light
level rather low.

NOVA SCOTIA TRIANGLE

GLACE BAY -- Eugene H. Frison Nova Scotia MUFON Provincial
Director writes that Jeff, a 17 year old paperboy began his
route at 6:15 AM on January 24, 2000.  He cut through a
graveyard to save time and realized something wasn't right as
there was a high-pitched whining sound riding the wind.  Upon
reaching the center of the graveyard, he became aware of a
tall, dark object coming up behind him and, at first, assumed
it was a person walking fast.  However, as it passed him at his
side (within about three feet) he realized that it was much
taller than any person.  It was instead a black triangular
shaped object with no apparent features. He says it was
definitely solid and as it passed him his scalp became very
hot. Once it had moved out in front of him, it then increased
its speed and veered off on an angle, crossing the entire
graveyard in about ten seconds.  He says he was surprised at
how fast it could move.  Jeff relates he watched the object
skim over a tombstone and realized at that point it was gliding
just above the ground, not moving along it.  The object was
very tall but not very wide -- just a bit wider than a large
adult across the shoulders at its widest point.  It was a
definite triangular shape with rounded edges.  At that hour of
the morning, it was still dark but there was enough light
coming from a street light located in the graveyard to be
certain of what he had witnessed.  Jeff is one month away from
his seventeenth birthday.  The incident is still being
investigated by myself at the present time! Thanks to Eugene H.
Frison Nova Scotia MUFON Provincial Director

CANADA AND ALASKA GIANT UFO

The MUFON Journal February 2000 carried an article concerning a
huge UFO hovering over Fox Lake in the Yukon Territory, Canada
on December 11, 1996.  The circular craft appears something
like a walnut in the photos drawn by 22 witnesses.  The giant
craft was believed to be to be from a half mile to over a mile
in diameter based on triangulation calculations and the
testimony of the witnesses.  There are no known flying objects
this large on Earth.  One of the sightings that most influenced
my own interest in UFOs was that of Captain Kanji Teach and
Japanese airline Flight 1628.  The crew spotted a giant similar
shaped UFO on November 17, 1986.  The Japanese pilots noticed
some unusual lights accompanying their 747 aircraft that
approached very close.  They caught a brief glimpse of the main
object's walnut-shaped silhouette and judged it to be "two
times bigger than an aircraft carrier or 2,000 feet long."  The
pilot was instructed by air traffic control to descend to 4,000
feet and make turns, but the object continued to follow the
plane for 32 minutes before vanishing.

The FAA admitted the objects were tracked on radar, but had not
registered on the radar tapes.  The FAA investigated and found
the crews to be normal and rational.  I have flown this Pacific
Ocean route on many occasions and you can often see other
flights ahead and behind you.  I did some checking and TWA
pilots were flying further south along the Alaskan Coast and
also saw the huge UFO.  Whenever there is a verified airborne
sighting it is prudent to attempt to determine what other
aircraft are likely to be in the area.  Airline pilots are
generally told not to talk to the news media but they will
often reveal sightings to investigators.  The FAA will seldom
if ever admit they have a UFO on radar.  Even when an aircrew
has one in sight, they will not admit it is on the radar but
they will divert you from a midair collision.  It appears the
huge walnut UFO apparently has made its appearance once again.
We have aircrews and 22 ground witnesses who seem to be
describing a craft so large that it is unlikely to be from
Earth.  I encourage you to get the MUFON Journal and read this
entire story by Martin Jasek a civil engineer and MUFON
investigator.

UNITED KINGDOM

EAST KILBRIDE - Three members of the East Kilbride UFO group
claim they had a sighting January 29, 2000, of a bright light
which landed.  Around this light 15 to 20 figures emerged.
They have all this on videotape, one exceptionally good shot
shows part of a 'creature' caught in a car headlight.  His
members claim they have forwarded the footage onto UFO Magazine
for examination.  Thanks to MarkFraser  and the Ayrshire UFOs
at http://www.killie.totalserve.co.uk/ufo.htm

WORCHESTER -- "A woman struggling to sleep saw a UFO land 30
miles south west of Birmingham.  Georgina Wells said she saw a
glowing object which hovered in the sky for more than an hour
at 2:00 AM Thursday [Feb. 3].  The 20-year-old said she saw the
"extremely bright" egg shape from her third floor bedroom
window at the back of her Bransford Road home.  But she said
she was amazed to see the glowing yellow object, which she
claims had a helicopter next to it the whole time, begin to
descend.  "It got lower and lower then it stopped glowing," she
said.  "I'm convinced it landed but I don't know where. But
minutes later it came back into view and was really bright
again and shot off into the sky and vanished. I have never seen
anything go that fast before."  Miss Wells, who was awake
because of a cold, added she had not taken any medicine, which
could cause her to hallucinate, nor was it a dream.  "I was
awake because I could not stop coughing," she said.  "I stood
up and watched it.  It was not a police helicopter with its
spotlight as there was no light-beam. Worchester Journal of
February 7, 2000.

POSSIBLE LINK TO ALIEN PANELS AND ROSWELL

NIEL MORRIS from University of Manchester in England has been
studying the Roswell debris photographs taken by J. Bond
Johnson in July of 1947 in General Ramey's office.  This is the
only known physical evidence of what crashed near Roswell.
Niel also examined the Alien Autopsy film that allegedly shows
the imprints of a six fingered alien control panel and alien
writing.  Many researchers feel this film is a fraud or
counterintelligence scheme.

Niel Morris writes, "During the early stages of the
reexamination of the Fort Worth photographs it became
increasingly apparent that the debris contained markings laid
out in a regular fashion.  This can be seen even on very
damaged beams, that the "symbols" maintain a regular layout."
I tried to match them with known characters used in both
ancient and modern written languages.  Some of the symbols
appeared much like those used by the early Egyptians but many
others did not seem to match anything that could be found on
Earth.  I also attempted to match these symbols with those
witnesses who had encounters with UFOs, but again no matches
were found.

I was well aware of the Alien Autopsy film and symbols seen on
beams displayed in the film that appeared in the UK early in
1995.  I examined some good quality prints of the beams from
the Alien Autopsy debris footage.  While I examined one of
these images at high magnification, off to one side of the
image, away from the main debris on show in the frame, my eye
was attracted to a regular pattern in the dark background of
the photograph.  The regular pattern of an Alien Autopsy
"symbol" had seen just a few minutes earlier was matched the
symbols in the Fort Worth debris! These findings will no doubt
prove to be highly contentious but it does not change the
content of the images and their similarity of form and style.
Before being dismissed these points have to be credibly
answered.  If that cannot be done then we have to contend with
the distinct possibility that (a) at least a portion of the AA
Film, The Debris Footage, could very well be a historical
record of events.  (b) The debris seen in the Fort Worth
photographs and that seen in the Alien Autopsy debris footage
once shared a common source.

The linkage hinges on the fact that unknown and only recently
discovered features in BOTH sets of images match, and that as
one of these sets of images (the Fort Worth Photographs) has a
proven history dating back to the day the photographs were
taken and developed on the 8th July 1947.  They are a factual
historical document.  The logic then is that "undiscovered"
features within these images could not be known to post 1947
"hoaxers" for inclusion in a later "fake."  Hence IF matching
features, both "undiscovered" until now, were found in the
"test" document there is a very high probability they too
originated from a contemporary 1947 source.  Bearing in mind we
are speaking of "unique" symbol features so far untraced
elsewhere.  To my knowledge the features I discovered twelve
months ago in both sets of images had never been noted or
reported.  I assume this is because no one has ever seen them
before.  I leave the final judgment to you, I myself find the
evidence compelling.  Thanks to Neil Morris.  Please visit his
website for more details at:
http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/aalink/index.htm or  at
www.filersfiles.com.

PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO shots available and
data on their propulsion systems. $10.00

US GOVERNMENT UFO PROOF RELEASED: Audio tapes of a genuine UFO
Alert at Edwards Air Force base and studied by the Foreign
Technology Division at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, are now
available for distribution to the public.  Sam Sherman's audio
documentary tape called EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE ENCOUNTER on the
night of October 7, 1965, uses the actual voice recordings
provided by the Air Force.  During this event 12 high tech
luminous UFOs invade secure air space and came down low over
the runways at Edwards AFB.  Tower operator Sgt. Chuck Sorrels
spotted them and notified the Air Defense Command.  Sgt.
Sorrels is heard on the original tapes and in a new segment
where he verifies the event as it is heard on the archival
recordings.  The UFOs are described and a decision is made to
launch F-106 fighter interceptors.  You are there for an
important part of UFO history.  Hear it for yourself, it's the
best UFO tape ever made.  Tape cost is $14.95 each plus $2.00
for shipping -- total $16.95 -- (for overseas orders-out of US
- add $6.00 shipping cost -- total -- $20.95) you can send
either a personal check or money order to: Independent
International Pictures Corp, Box 565, Dept. GF, Old Bridge, New
Jersey 08857.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe by contacting Mufon@aol.com. Mention I
recommended you for membership.  Filer's Files is Copyrighted
2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
items from the Files on their Web Sites provided that they
credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date
of issue that the item appeared.  Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com.  Sending mail automatically grants
permission for us to publish. Please state if you wish to keep
your name or story confidential,









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 12

                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 01:35:40 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 13:09:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 13:54:03 -0800
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Stewart Vs. Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 16:09:11 -0400
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 07:23:16 -0800
 >>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >>Ed, Please read this carefully.two archivists said certain
 >>documents were not fraudulent because they didn't have TS
 >>control numbers. I didn't say they said tthey were genuine. The
 >>absence of TS control numbers does NOT make them fraudulent...
 >>despite your claim that such absence does.

<snip>

 >actually were not supportive of your claims. But that is not
 >unexpected. As I have previously documented on this list, the
 >control procedures for Top Secret documents in the jurisdiction
 >of the Executive Branch have been established by law. It is not
 >a notion of Ed Stewart as Stanton Friedman alleges. It is the
 >law of the land and has been the law of the land as the history
 >of executive orders demonstrates!

Ed,

First off I disagree with Stan about the reality of the so
called MJ-12 documents. That being said I would like to point
out that I personally have seen authentic declassified
government documents both Top Secret and codeword that DO NOT
have control numbers as some people claim they should have.
Years ago I entertained thoughts just like you do, that is until
I made archival visit as part of my Cold War research. Big Eye
opener.

Likewise CIA directors and others that handle highly classified
records and documents are by law not supposed to remove them out
of the TS vaults, and or controlled circumstances but they _do_
as proved by recent media coverage of former CIA director John
Deutch who took both paper and electronic highly classified
documents home so he could work on them.

Since you seem quite bothered about the lack of control numbers,
why don't you hop on an airplane, go to the National Archives in
Suitland and go through the CIAs record group, in particular the
National Intelligence Estimates, the material on the Corona spy
sat project, records from the National Photographic Intelligence
Center where you will get a mix and match which illustrates this
very point.

Several years ago I spoke to a retired govt official about
special access programs and such. He advised me that some
programs (like corona) were so black at the time and clearances
for that information was so limited that the people generating
documents did not feel the need to put on a control number
because all the documents related to that were stored at
seperate locations then the TS and others.

As I recall from my earlier Cold war research, approx 5000
people in government were cleared for material from the various
air overflights of the USSR and other countries. Again, as I
recall the codeword was Talent. Once Corona came along they
added the codeword Keyhole and by special Presidential codeword
classified decree only a few people in the beginning were
cleared for Talent/Keyhole. Later on that numbered increased to
a total of 1500. By the way the special Presidential decree was
classified in and of itself Talent/Keyhole, and was not part of
any numbered Presidential Executive Orders or on any list of
Presidential memorandums that the archives had UNTIL it was
declassified. As I recall this decree did not have a control
number.

As an interesting aside, the public side of Corona was named
Discovery and was allegedly about launching monkeys into space
and such. There was even a bunch of people on the "public side"
of the project who worked on the monkey and related program and
had no knowledge of the real purpose of the program. The only
person who had clearance from the "Public" side to the "Black"
side was the secretary who worked at the public office. She
reported to the "Black" side.

<snip>

 >>That is still true. I didn't say I had a TS clearance. I missed
 >>it in the galleys...

 >How many different printings has Crash at Corona had since 1994?
 >How many printings since you were publically made aware of the
 >lie? Have you bothered to remove the lie from the paperback
 >edition recently published? If no, why not? It has nothing to do
 >with whether you read the original galleys back in 1993/1994.
 >How many future printings are you going to allow without a
 >correction? On autographed copies that you sell privately, do
 >you include an insert to advise the buyer the passage is in
 >error? My autographed copy has no such errata sheet!

 From the point of view of a person that has a background in
publishing and editing, I can totally believe Stan. I have read
galley proofs endlessly, then turn them over to someone else and
they immediatly pick up an error that I had missed. It is common
in the publishing industry to have 3 to 5 people reading Galleys
and errors still end up in the final printed version.

In most if not all legal offices when an attorney generates a
document, they usually have some else read it, and sometimes a
third person as well, as the other people pick up on errors and
mistakes that the person generating the document does not.

As to the notion of whether Stan's Q clearance is equal to TS or
visa-versa keep reading.

 >>I have never said I had a TS clearance. I
 >>had a Q some consider this between SECRET and TS others say it
 >>is equal to TS. I had a Q.

 >Alleged expert and alleged authority on security matters Stanton
 >T. Friedman shows his total ignorance by not even knowing the
 >meaning of the little buzz words he has managed to memorize but
 >not understand and repeats an absurdity in defense of his
 >ignorance which he has repeated in the past and been corrected
 >by others at that time.

<snip>

 >Q is not, I repeat, is not a level of clearance such as
 >Confidential, Secret, Top Secret. It is an access authorization
 >denominator that signifies nuclear related data and places such
 >data into that category requiring someone in authority to make a
 >determination if a specific individual has a need to access that
 >data. In other words, if one is working for a defense contractor
 >on contracts that relate to the nuclear field, invariably one
 >could need access to Q data. Irrespective of that, the
 >individual would still need the appropriate level of security
 >clearance to which that Q data was classified: Restricted(in use
 >at one time), Confidential, Secret, Top Secret. Trying to

Q is in fact identified by the DOE as a level of clearance. But
since I don't want anybody to take my word for it, go the the
testimony of C. Paul Robison at Sandia labs under the heading of
"Countering The Insider Threat" at the following address:

http://www.sandia.gov/testimony/990505/99050503.htm

  "A DOE Q clearance is required of the subset of employees who
  have a need to access nuclear weapon design information (secret
  and top secret restricted data). All other employees must
  obtain the DOE L clearance, which is approximately equivalent
  to the DoD SECRET clearance. The DOE Q clearance requires a
  background investigation of the individual by an agency
  independent of DOE. An L clearance requires a credit check.
  Security clearances are subject to reinvestigation every five
  years."

We find at a LANL web site:

http://www.lanl.gov/orgs/s/s6/ps/reciprocity.html

Under "Reciprocal Clearances" we read the following lines:


  "Applicant has an active Clearance from another agency. DOD,
  NRC, FBI, CIA, etc. Must have a current investigation Top
  Secret or SCI is equivalent to a DOE - Q Secret is equivalent
  to a DOE - L Other levels of access are not recognized by the
  DOE"


 From the Defense Security Service (DOD) at:

http://www.dss.mil/seclib/govsec/chap4.htm

we read the following:

  "In most agencies individuals are vetted for Confidential,
  Secret, or Top Secret clearances, and possibly for access to
  Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI) as well. The
  Department of Energy (DoE) has a separate system pursuant to
  the Atomic Energy Act; most of its employees receive either an
  'L' clearance, which equates to a Confidential or Secret
  clearance, or a 'Q' clearance, which equates to a Top Secret
  clearance, which equates to a Top Secret clearance."


 >When Stanton Friedman continuouly repeats

 >"I had a Q some consider this between SECRET and TS others say it
 >is equal to TS. I had a Q."

So Stan is correct when he says that a Q clearance is equal to
TS or even SCI.

Bottom line is that _no_ book publisher would even think about
changing what was written in 'Crash...' especially if they did
some basic research.

Cheers,

Robert







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                            Alfred's Odd Ode #338

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 08:17:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 13:33:28 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #338

Apology to MW #338 (For February 12, 2000)

Are you having all the answers that you'd like to think you
have? Are you comfy where you think you'd like to be? Does a
starry, starry sky begin to palpitate your conscience with
dishonest guilty feelings you perceive? Is your horror harsh and
angry, are your demons moving closer; do you wallow in your
morass not content? Do you see a lack of fairness with a wrong
bunch holding sway? Are you sensing the distention (?) -- common
sense has dropped away.

Are you seeing global warming, or the contrails in the sky, or
the specious social politics, and begin to wonder "why!"? Do you
wonder at the hatred that has dripped from Palestine; are you
seeing too much innocence locked in jail doing time? Do *rods*
perplex or scare you? Are they crystals; are they craft? Was JFK
conspiracy? Is Sitchin cleanly daft? Do skeptibunkies sing a
song of denial and deceit? The mainstream pules a sneering scowl
of arrogant conceit.

Did saucers fly Rapuzzi's skies and land upon the ground? Did
dwarfish beings dismount that craft -- a red glow all around?
With greenish skin and circled eyes, did they shoot him with a
ray . . . that left him weak and paralyzed, and almost dead he'd
say? Are sane folk these abducted? Do *they* interact with us?
Can folks commune with aliens, and somehow, NOT destroy the
trust? These questions go unanswered as we snatch away our eyes,
refuse to LOOK, investigate, research, or analyze.

All we HAVE are questions that we fear too much to ask, and we
feed a strained reluctance to what puts us to its task. We cloth
ourselves in avarice while we smother our desire, and lie strait
faced to children when they ask why we perspire. We're all about
continuance of convenient status quo -- all a *little*
psychopathic letting little children go. Oh, I won't let you off
as I propose that euphemism, these SLOWLY die, in misery --
while we enjoy the schism!

We ARE waste of strained resources, and we rot in stinking
ponds; we blithely dance with devils that we know are flatly
wrong. We catalogue our errors with our history of lies, and
we're too quick to pick or choose and label our despised. We're
petty and convenient, we pretend -- avert our gaze. We MAKE the
fog so closet thick, we WORK to make that haze. And most of us
know better which would make the matter worse -- refine our
commination, and so amplify our curse.

So ARE you *really* comfy that our comet watching team couldn't
staff just ONE McDonalds? Are you comfy in your dreams! . .
.Think you're safe in YOUR fine house, with your money in the
bank, and your beamer almost paid for . . . are you really
comfy, Frank? Is the devil way behind you? Do you think you know
your God? Do you get the helpless feeling that you're living by
his rod? So why the hell's he beat you? Do you really have a
clue? Or are you lying to yourself, and nothing *known* is
really true?

Now we don't look for saucers and we laugh up gilded sleeves. We
won't look for answers which are cures for our disease. We won't
show our world respect. We treat her like a bitch. We don't care
who has to pay so some can be so rich. We won't take the higher
road and peer into the sky, and glare at the infinity that dares
us! We won't try. The multi-verse is yawning and would swallow
us down whole, and we snipe at one another, fan a fire -- carp
and scold!

If a space folk are ADMITTED in any manner, shape, or form --
they might as well be really close . . . we shan't avoid this
storm. We ourselves perceive, perhaps, the way that they get . .
. *here*. There is, perhaps, SOME paucity in our grasp of
physics -- DEAR? But I forget your Aristotle -- what we're
cursed to carry on. Essentially, that we're alone, that space
and time's a wall. That our *supreme* intelligence is the center
of its point . . . when we're monkeys fondling footballs -- our
priorities out of joint.

We might not have the center stage! We might not be supreme! We
might not have that loving God's concern for you and me. We
might not hold the aces. We might not make the grade. We might
be scuttling roaches to such folk as MIGHT be made.

. . . we COULD be squalid vermin to a plethora of beings. Are
you comfy with the centric song that you'd contrive to sing?

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

The multi-verse naturally conspires to mash us, collectively,
like a senseless bug. We're the easy targets of bullets from
prions to asteroids.

The only way to ensure a proposed immortality is to seed the
belt around our sun. With that cornucopic planetary mass of raw
material found in that slot between Mars and Jupiter we could
ensure a billion years to explore an immortality. To stay HERE
is to rot, unborn, in the belly of our suffering mother.

Restore John Ford.

--
~~~~
EXPLORE Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL.
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/
                  **<Updated 12 February>**
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/witches/237/lehmberg.html

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got theirs) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at
the fundamentalist's stake.








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                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:10:50 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 15:47:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 04:14:58 -0800
From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:06:26 -0400
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 21:49:46 -0800
 >>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Ed's standard don't-bother-me-with-the-facts attitude and his
 >obvious inability to even be civil are well established in the
 >posting. First he agrees that the originating agency determines
 >the security markings, then he claims that since the CT memo was
 >found in an USAF RG, that it should have their marks on it.

Sorry you don't understand the difference between the
responsibilities of an originating agency and the
responsibilities of a recipient agency in the control procedures
involving TS documents. AR 380-5 outlines the control
procedures. I have posted them before and it is also available
online. When the alleged document came under the control of the
Department of Defense, the control procedures in AR 380-5 became
the authority. One can deal in all the alleged exceptions in the
world and compare oranges to apples to avocados. When it is all
said and done, AR 380-5 is still the regulatory instrument that
those in charge of controlling the alleged document in the
alleged possession of the Air Force had to adhere to. Sorry, but
that is the law of the land, not my opinion, not my wish, but
the law of the land.

 >Now
 >if that were true, why is it that the 2 TS memos to USAF General
 >Twining (From Cutler), found in his files, and therefore under
 >USAF control, had no TS Control numbers?

Yet when convenient to Stanton Friedman's argument he says:

 >Both were found at the Library oif Congress Manuscript Division
 >in the Twining papers and are therefore under the rules of the
 >White House (The Originating Agency) and not the DOD.

Make up your mind. You have had thirteen years to tell a
straight story. Don't you think it is about time you stopped
stumbling over your own versions from moment to moment? Read AR
380-5 and learn something about control procedures which will
expand your alleged knowledge of security buzz words in a
relevant way.

 >I noted in my 1989 MUFON paper that according to the National
 >Archives, Box 189, in which CT was found, had first been
 >handled by an Air Force Officer between Sept.24, and Sept. 28,
 >1984, about 2 weeks after the death of the last surviving member
 >of MJ-12, Jerome Hunsaker. It was handled again June 20 and June
 >24 and first served to researchers in early July 1985. (Moore
 >and Shandera).

Yup, Moore and Shandera were the first to have access to RG 341
after the review team comprised of both archive and Air Force
personnel completed their declassification review.

 >Furthermore there were "clever" postcards after September, 1984,
 >referring MS to Washington DC and including the designation Box
 >189.

"Clever" postcards that have never been seen or provided to
researchers for independent forensic studies to determine their
legitimacy. I wonder why? With today's methods, it may well be
determined whether the postcards indeed originated in a far off
land or from a US southwestern five and dime store. But the
research team of Moore-Shandera-Freidman have always refused to
make these allegedly "mysterious" postcards available to
researchers for independent study. I wonder why? They may well
have held forensic clues to the provenance of the MJ-12
documents. There is that dirty word, provenance, that Freidman
has ignored for thirteen years of alleged research on the MJ-12
documents.

Also, these mysterious postcards allegedly led Moore and
Shandera to find the document not at the records center at
Suitland, as hinted at on the postcards, but at the main
Archives in Washington, D.C. proper miles distant. I wonder why
Moore and Shandera went "looking" for box 189 at the archives
and not miles away at Suitland as hinted by these "clever"
postcards? As if somebody decided to change course of action at
the last minute from a previous plan and take advantage of the
opportunity of the moment of a recent declassification effort
for added publicity. Very strange!

 >Of course CT didn't belong in the box as is obvious upon
 >review of the other items in the box. Of course it was a
 >violation of security procedures for a TS document to be removed
 >from one file and placed into another. Of course, the only person
 >who would have access to CT, prior to Box 189 being released,
 >was somebody with a high level security clearance. The reviewers
 >had to have such clearances. They were even allowed to bring in
 >brief cases. The last one to handle the box could easily have
 >placed one item in it without anybody else knowing until it was
 >discovered shortly thereafter. The NA was unwilling to give me
 >tha names of any of the reviewers. Teams were used...

Of course, Stanton Freidman conveniently never makes any mention
that Moore-Shandera could have easily planted the Cutler-Twining
document themselves. Remember, they were not allowed to bring
briefcases in to hide any document. Consequently the document
would have had to been folded and hidden on their person,
possibly an inside coat pocket. As a matter of fact, the
Cutler-Twining document was neatly folded in thirds when brought
to the attention of Archive personnel by Moore and Shandera.
There was no need for an "insider", as claimed by Friedman
without any supporting documentation, to have folded the
document in thirds since all the Air Force and Archives
reviewing personnel were allowed to bring in briefcases.

The only people that would have had the need to fold an
illegitimate document to be clandestinely inserted in the
archives would be somebody not allowed to bring in briefcases,
somebody like "outside" researchers. Moore and Shandera were the
first outsiders given access to RG 341.

I wonder why Friedman keeps protecting his co-researchers on
this matter by refusing to go into the provenance of the
documents and following up on the leads that could provide
important clues to the provenance of the MJ-12 documents? And
why after allegedly finding the Cutler-Twining document not in a
folder, but inbetween folders, would they "move" the document to
a folder before bringing it to the attention of the Archives
personnel? Why tamper with allegedly important evidence?

These are perplexing and troubling issues never properly
addressed by the research team of Moore-Shandera-Friedman. But
tampering with the evidence by Moore-Shandera-Friedman has been
part of their "research" methods. When the alleged MJ-12
documents were first presented to the public by the research
team of Moore-Shandera-Friedman, they were strategically
blackened out in places to increase the melodramatic effect of
the alleged documents. I wonder why they felt the need to tamper
melodramatically with the documents if they were so legitimate?

 >TS control numbers were usually used for Multiple copies of
 >multiple page documents. One page items with only one recipient
 >very often did not use TS control Numbers.

So says security procedures expert nuclear physicist Stanton T.
Friedman. The above indeterminate statement is not relevant to
the discussion at hand. We are talking about RG 341, an Air
Force Records Group whose control procedures would  have been
under AR 380-5. How many declassified Top Secret documents are
there in RG 341 that do not have control numbers? That is
relevant and that is something that Stanton Friedman skirts
around and never addresses.

 >Re: Bob Todd and not visiting Archives, I have yet to find
 >anybody besides USAF Captain McAndrew who has even met him, at
 >Bob's home at that. Archivist Ed Reese at the National Archives
 >more than once told me in person that although Bob had often
 >written and called, he had never been there. Perhaps Ed can
 >provide some evidence that Todd had made a visit to the
 >National Archives or any other Archive?

I am not Robert Todd's keeper, nor am I obsessed with his
personal schedules. Is that how you spend your research time at
the archives? Following up on whether Robert Todd did this or
did that? I wonder why?

 >Despite Ed's persisent denigration of my visits to Archives,
 >such visits give a much better picture of the variety of styles,
 >formats, procedures used in classified government documents,
 >than arm chair theorizing.

So says Stanton T. Friedman when he is not interrogating
archival personnel on whether or not Robert Todd has been there,
or whether anybody has seen him. Why are you so obsessed with
Robert Todd?

 >As I have noted in my various papers and TOP SECRET/MAJIC,
 >(Autographed or not - that is a joke, Ed) there are many other
 >reasons for concluding that the CT memo is genuine as are the TF
 >memos and the EBD.

Yup, Friedman has been making the same old tired arguments for
13 years without convincing anybody important that any of his
arguments are legitimate. They have all been rebuffed in the UFO
literature including IUR, the MUFON journal, UFO magazine and
CAUS Bulletin with even his co-researchers, co-authors and
initial presenters of the alleged MJ-12 documents reversing
their original positions and distancing themselves from Stanton
Friedman's tired and non-convincing rhetoric on this matter. I
wonder why?

What I find possible and propable is that someday, somebody
stands to make a fortune by confessing to be the perpetrator of
the MJ-12 documents and holding the UFO community at bay and
standstill for years with the hoax, selling the rights to the
story which no doubt will have substantial book and TV teleplay
offers. When it occurs, somebody is going to become very rich
and somebody is going to appear very foolish indeed! Such are
the rewards and dangers of becoming fanatical over the alleged
MJ-12 documents. It is bound to happen.

Time to leave nuclear physicist Stanton T. Friedman to his own
thoughts.

Ed Stewart







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                      Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 01:26:29 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:18:51 -0500
Subject: Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos


 >Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:49:50 -0500
 >From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
 >Subject: Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:37:06 -0600
 >>From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 23:35:23 -0500
 >>>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:26:51 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>>>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >>>>Subject: Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>I just checked out the MGS images and the calculations Lan did.
 >>>>If the assumptions he made are correct, then there is something
 >>>>of foreign origin on the surface of Phobos. The surface
 >>>>brightness of the monolith, when compared to the inside of the
 >>>>sunlit craters for the same sun angle, is much brighter. This
 >>>>further supports the foreign origin of this object.

 >>>I think it would be best to be cautious on this score.

 >>Yes, "caution" is exactly the word I used in describing the
 >>situation.

 ><snip>

 >>>http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/fullres/divided/orb_0551/55103d.jpg

 ><snip>

 >Caution is right! I rotated one of the photos to the left to
 >see if there was structure there (personal curiosity), and all I
 >saw was an unusually brightly lit boulder on the surface of
 >Phobos, with an elongated shadow. I don't think it's a
 >monolith.

 >No need to have an astrophysics degree to figure this one out!


Hello Michel, Mark, Nick and other:

I have to chime in and say I agree also.

Having seen Mark Cashman's collection of related images, the
"monolith" doesn't seem quite so strange as I thought at first.

I would still like to hear the "official" opinions on the
matter. If I were in their place (i.e. NASA, Malin, JPL etc.) I
would posit the effects of very low gravity.

Any collision with a small asteroid say, would blast rocks and
what-not of all shapes sizes and colors out. Slowly drifting
back down, a few might impale themselves into the "soil" at odd
angles, even nearly straight up.

If you flip enough dominoes into a sandbox, a very few might
stick up as if they were carefully placed, even under Earth's
gravity. Its not so hard to envision something like this on
Phobos.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

- - - - - - - - - -







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                          March 2000 Life Magazine

From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 19:10:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 19:26:05 -0500
Subject: March 2000 Life Magazine


List,

Buy it while you can. Procrastination doesn't pay. I learned
that when I went to find my ritual annual 'Year In Pictures'
issue but to no avail.'Sorry, sold out.' What a bummer being the
last issue of the 1900s.

Anywho, while browsing the local Coles Bookstore I found that
their New Age section consisted of one UFO paperback. I mean
literally _one_ book on their shelves. I did manage to get my
sell-off year 2000 calendars of Monty Python, Monkeys and Anne
Geddes, they'll be glad to hear, for 75% off, well maybe the
monkeys won't care. Then over to the magazines. No, nothing but
How To Have A Great Garden (in the winter?), what Susan Lucci's
latest love affair will be on the soaps (who cares?), and
surprisingly enough Discover and Popular Science. Don't need
'em, don't need 'em, got 'em.

So I thought I'd leave, when lo and behold on the turnstyle by
the counter was the March issue of LIFE Magazine, larger than
life.

And Now for Something Completely Different..... on the
cover 'UFOs - Why do we believe? 'Well that made the trip worth
it right there. Monty Python and Anne Geddes put on the back
burner now. Monkeys will always have a place in my heart.

Almost half-way through the current LIFE is the generous 8-page
UFO article about Chris McKay, astrobiologist, NASA, SETI,
Glenn Dennis, the usual pictures and explanations, Roswell,
Art Bell being protested at a book signing in New York, abductee
Sandy Nichols, physicists, psychologists, writers, critics,
believers, and politicians.


"..... according to a LIFE poll, 30 percent of us think aliens
have already landed. The number of Americans who say they have
been abducted is "staggering", says one St. Louis psychiatrist.
Harvard Medical School's John Mack has treated hundreds and has
a new book out. There are 300 UFO organizations, 38 UFO
magazines, China reportedly has 40,000 ufologists. When ufologist
Art Bell, the fourth-highest rated radio talk show host in the
U.S., appeared at a New York book signing, protesters called him
the Antichrist."

Well I thought 50% of it was fair. But where are the real
ufologists here? Guess I can't complain too much, if LIFE covers
UFOs, they might, in a way, be taken seriously.

LIFE - March 200 - A must for collectors.

Happy reading. I'll let you know if hanging a picture of an
orangutan over the cat food bowl discourages The Dancer & The Moo
from eating too much.

Sue Kovios








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                          Filer's Files #06 -- 2000

From: George A. Filer,  Director <>Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:43:09 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 13:15:49 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000


Filer's Files #06 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,  Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
February 12, 2000,  Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020
Web Site at www.filersfiles.com -- Chuck Warren Webmaster.
THEORY OF EVOLUTION MINDSHIFT

The foundation for all scientific knowledge concerning life on
Earth is the belief in the Theory of Evolution.  I found I
could easily convince most people, that we were being visited
by alien life forms if they question that theory.  Those
hardest to convince are scientists and engineers whose bedrock
belief system accepts without question the Theory of Evolution.
They refused even to read these files.  If we assume for the
sake of argument, that this theory is wrong, our scientific
knowledge suddenly embraces the concept that intelligent life
spread from space to Earth.  For too long the Theory of
Evolution has been taught as fact and as an undeniable truth.
Scientists and educators have taught with fervor and passion
that all life originated on Earth.  Obviously there is some
evidence that species change to adapt to the situation around
them.  But it is a giant leap of faith to assume we all came
from some primeval ooze and gradually developed into complex
life forms.  I have had the luxury of seeing the complexity of
just one cell.  It is doubtful that life happened by chance.
The logical conclusion is that there was a Creator.  I receive
many letters from scientists who claim to be experts in the
field of genetics, who admit they are afraid to speak up.  They
are frankly afraid of losing their jobs, if they verbalize
their own findings that the Theory of Evolution is in error.

Recently Oklahoma ordered publishers to include a disclaimer
about the theory in their biology books.  The disclaimer about
evolution is that it is "unproven belief that random undirected
forces produced a world of living things."  The statement
continues by saying, "No one was present when life first
appeared on Earth.  Therefore any statement about life's
origins should be considered theory, not fact."  Governor Frank
Keating as taken a lot of heat for appointing a Textbook
Committee that feels that the theory is questionable, but 700
teachers have backed him.

Astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell in his book, "The Way of the
Explorer, discusses what he calls the Dyadic Model, a way to
deal with knowledge, existence, and our knowledge of our
existence.  "The previous notion in science was that the
Universe was a giant accident and that it would be too much of
an accident for life to have formed and become intelligent
life, in more than one place at a time.  To science, that would
be too much of an accident.  " It view is clearly wrong and
science has to revise its notion and accept the fact that
whatever process has brought us into being has brought life
into being throughout the Universe.  Now that we look back on
it, it sounds silly that throughout our history, until the last
two or three decades, we really believed we were alone in the
Universe.  Now that we see beyond that, we see how archaic
these types of ideas are."

My point is that once main stream science understands there are
serious problems with the Theory of Evolution they will be able
to see the UFOs in our skies.  The mindshift, the awakening is
coming soon!

SHUTTLE VIDEOTAPES UFOs

I have been reviewing the videotape of several shuttle missions
such as the Discovery flight of last June.  The tape shows a
series of Unidentified Flying Objects moving at tremendous
speeds at an estimated ten miles above the Earth's surface.
They apparently fly just above large thunderstorms and far
below the shuttle that is orbiting at 230 miles above the
Earth.  My calculations indicate the speed of the faster UFOs
are a startling 100,000 miles per hour.  One UFO flies from
Tallahassee to Pensacola, Florida a distance of 195 miles in
seven seconds.  The Discovery Shuttle this summer was orbiting
Earth and heavy storm was over the Atlantic Ocean off the US
East Coast.  The thunderstorms seem almost to explode with
bursts of heavy lightning in the night sky far below.  I
counted four lighted and sometime blinking objects moving
across the screen.  The lighted objects move east to west and
north to south fairly quickly until they reach the
thunderstorms where they seem to stop and hover.  Its possible
these objects are a natural phenomenon generated by the
thunderstorms themselves.  However, they appear to come from
north and east of the thunderstorms and move to them where they
seem to take on electrical energy.  NASA spokesman often claim
these are simply ice crystals.

Astronaut Joseph P. Allen with Ph.D. from Yale in physics wrote
the book, Entering Space an Astronaut's Odyssey explains the
shuttle orbits the Earth at a speed of 17,500 mph.  The
orbiting shuttle is maneuvered in space by a total of
forty-four thrusters, or minirockets, located in the orbiter's
nose and tail of the reaction-control system.  Six of the
thrusters are vernier jets small thrusters that slowly and
quietly move the hundred-ton machine to new attitudes.  The
remaining thirty eight thrusters are primary jets, which are
not silent.  These are used for more rapid rotations and for
translation maneuvers - - straight-line movements of the
orbiter, forward or back, left, or right, up or down.  The
orbiter reacts to the primaries' shove by shaking slightly and
by moving very noticeably.

During the videos there is no indication these minirockets are
firing.  Further most of the UFOs do not seem to be blown away
from the shuttle, but come into the picture from opposite
direction.  I spent hours analyzing the photos and I do not
feel the bulk of the unidentified objects can be explained by
the simple explanation that they are floating ice crystals or
parts of shuttle being blown across the screen in various
directions.  Close examination of the video indicates the UFOs
are entering the video hundreds of miles away form the shuttle,
obviously much too far away to be effected by the orbiter's
rockets.  Thanks to Tom Sheets and ISUR for providing the
videos.  Editor's note: The UFOs are moving along the 30th
degree parallel at high speed towards Shanghai, China and
Cairo, Egypt that also report recent UFO sightings.  At this
time my web site does not have the resources to show these
videos to the reader.

MASSACHUSETTS WOMAN SEES A UFO

NEW BEDFORD -- On Thursday, February 3, 2000, at 10:15 p.m.,
eyewitness Michele N. glanced through a window of her home in
New Bedford, Massachusetts (population 100,000) and spotted a
UFO passing slowly over the neighborhood.  "It was a circular
object with a red flashing light," she reported, "I had it in
sight for several minutes."  According to the witness, the
large disc-shaped UFO came from the south over Mount Hope Bay.
Crossing the shoreline, it flew northward over Brockton Park
and Tramline Hill, moving roughly parallel to Ashley Boulevard,
before it went out of sight.  New Bedford, a prominent whaling
port in the early Nineteenth Century, is located 58 miles south
of Boston.  Thanks to UFO Roundup Vol. 5 #6   2/10/00 Editor:
Joseph Trainor

FLORIDA

WINTER HAVEN -- On February 7, 2000, ISUR received reports from
two different witnesses of an orange circular light stationary
in the eastern sky.  JB reports that between 8 and 8:45 PM, two
and then three lights would also appear.  These looked similar
to rockets being fired from Cape Canaveral at night, but the
location was to the south and inland of the Cape.  The witness
contacted NASA, who reported no launches during that time
period.  The witness reportedly videotaped the event.  Another
witness in Jupiter, Florida and observed a black disc in the
sky to the NNE.  It appeared to be traveling at about 200 mph,
about 1 or 2 miles away, He estimated the disc to be 50 to 100
feet in diameter and very thin.  It traveled 'on edge,'
resembling a dinner plate.  It also appeared to be wobbling,
and the witness thought it might have been out of control.  The
witness reported this event to ISUR within 3 hours of the
sighting.  Both cases were referred to Bland Pugh, the Florida
MUFON State Director.

GEORGIA DID YOU HEAR THE BOOM?

COLUMBUS -- Neither City authorities nor Ft. Benning officials
could explain the loud 'boom' that shook the area about 5:20
p.m. February 5, 2000.  Many concerned callers directed their
inquiries to Ft. Benning officials and Columbus 911 searching
for answers. "We don't believe it was anything on Fort Benning,"
said Captain John Hollar.  "What a lot of people outside are
saying is that it was a sonic boom.  But we had no planes in
the area."  A 911 dispatcher said she had four calls since
arriving to work two hours after the incident."  But they got a
lot more earlier."  There have been no reports of injuries or
explanations of what may have caused the boom.  The boom was
also felt and heard in Alabama and is similar to one heard on
August 2, 1999, that included UFO sightings. The usual suspect,
the military have denied it was their aircraft.  Seismic
earthquake activity was not detected, so a sonic boom is most
likely responsible.  A full investigation was made of the
8/2/99 blast and  was submitted to GEMA Thanks to John
Thompson.  Editor's Note: I'm beginning to think these booms
may be tied to UFOs under certain circumstances.  Those UFOs
passing over at 100,000 mph would not be seen, but they might
be heard as booms.

MINNESOTA MULTICOLORED UFO SEEN

ELK RIVER -- On January 28, at 9:00 PM and again on January 29,
2000, at 5:30 AM, residents spied an unusual object with bright
multicolored lights hovering near their homes.  "We first
noticed a bright red light in the sky," Denise M. reported.
"At first I thought it was a jet since we have jets that pass
over making their descent into Minneapolis-St. Paul
International Airport.  The UFO approached from the east and
hovered.  The longer I watched, I realized it was not moving.
I got my binoculars and I could see it had white lights that
ran around the bottom of the object, and blue, green and red
lights were flashing from the top."  I watched for 45 minutes
before it moved to the south, then hovered in that position."
I called a neighbor to verify what I was seeing.  He looked
through the binoculars and agreed he had never seen anything
like it.  A few minutes later it disappeared to the southeast
quite slowly."  Thanks to UFO Roundup Vol. 5 #5 2/3,/00
Editor: Joseph Trainor  Masinaigan@aol.com

COLORADO

ARLINGTON -- Dannyk1 writes in the autumn of 1991, I was
driving east on Highway 36 when I spotted two lights in the sky
to my left.  I first thought they were wing lights on a
low-flying B-52, but I realized the lights were hovering on
either end of an immense object.  I then noticed a bright
halogen light following me down the highway.  I decided not to
turn toward the large mystery object because my daughter was
sleeping in the back seat and I did not want to endanger her.
I have to admit I was getting a bit panicky. This continued for
several more minutes until the headlights of an oncoming car
suddenly appeared ahead of me at Haswell, some 15 or so miles
distant and the highest point in the county, so high you can
glimpse the distant Rocky Mountains.  When the other car
suddenly appeared the white light behind suddenly stopped and
seemed to recede in the distance as I continued to speed
eastward.  I mentioned my sighting to the county sheriff, who
had spent many nights a decade earlier chasing cattle
mutilations.  He accepted my comments at face value, but
revealed he was glad I had not turned off toward the mystery
object.  He said it might have been associated with a drug drop
and that I likely would have been shot at with sophisticated
laser weapons had I ventured toward it.

CALIFORNIA EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT?

EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE -- Billy Dee's contact reports on
February 8, 2000, that the last three nights have been active
with flights of fighters, helicopters, and transports doing
night drops.  In addition I was watching a strange object going
in one direction and abruptly reverse course.  It's lighting
was randomly changing from flashing to non-flashing red and
green lights, bright white light, and sometimes no lights at
all.  The object flew almost directly over the house.  Imagine
my surprise to hear a small engine!  My wife and I watched as
it flew over, still randomly changing it's lighting pattern.
Last night, just after sundown, I saw this same plane take off
from Edwards again and head directly towards me with extremely
bright white light, and two red lights.  I called out two
family members and we all watched as it flew overhead.  Because
it wasn't quite dark yet, I was able to see through binoculars
that it was a small ultralight with an open cockpit, fixed
wings, and the engine behind the cockpit.  It had a pole
projecting forward with different colored lights attached.
There were also lights on the end of both wings and the rear.
All of these light s could randomly change color, from red, to
green, to bright white, or none at all.  We watched for twenty
minutes as constantly changed the configuration of its
lighting.  It appears designed to confuse.  Thanks to
BillyDee@ufossi.org.  Editors Note: It does appear they are
testing various light configurations possibly in an attempt to
fool enemy antiaircraft gunners.  With the advent of stealth
aircraft that are almost invisible to radar, enemy gunners
often must rely on visual recognition of a target.  Various
lighting patterns can confuse attempts to down our aircraft.

SAN FRANCISCO -- On the evening of Super Bowl Sunday, January
30, 2000, I was hauling up a line of crab traps off Farlon
Island aboard our 25' boat.  My dog started to bark furiously.
I looked up and saw a huge triangular object hovering above
with NO sound.  I was hit by a beam of white light and fell
backward.  I grabbed my Ruger 10-22 rifle loaded with a 100
round banana magazine and stared firing as fast as I could
until the clip was empty.  I was able to shoot out the light.
While grabbing for a second clip, I saw a hatch open up on the
bottom side of the object and two people leaned down to yell,
"STOP SHOOTING AT US YOU IDIOT."  The only other noise I heard
was a hissing sound like air escaping from a flat tire.  As the
object moved off to the south, I saw a helicopter come out off
the top and move in next to my boat about 20 feet off the water
and only feet away.  Someone in the side door held up a camera
and the flash shot off a picture of me in the boat holding the
rifle.  The helicopter made no noise and had no markings on it.
It was solid flat black as was the huge Triangle.  The chopper
then took off toward the Golden Gate Bridge climbing up.  The
Triangle slowing gained altitude and was last seen heading
south.  At first I thought it was an alien UFO and was
genuinely startled by it.  However, I now believe it was an
experimental military platform for transporting a small fleet
of black helicopters that leave and enter out of the top of a
huge silent floating triangle the size of a football field.  A
rigid airship if you will.  (NUFORC noted: This may be the
first report we have received that has the occupants of such a
craft using a camera with a flash attachment.) Thanks to Peter
Davenport at www.ufocenter.com.

PETALUMA -- On January 24, 2000, a disk shaped object was first
spotted by two retired merchants and a writer.  The three
witnesses stopped their car and watched for two to three minutes
from outside their car until 6:11 PM.  The UFO was observed
moving from south to north at moderate speed until it was
obscured by buildings near the horizon.  The object was a dull
silver metallic color and saucer shaped about as tall as wide.
It was about the size of a pea at arm's length.  Its shape was
like two cones, joined at the rims, but with the tips
truncated, so that it appeared somewhat saucer-shaped, but
about as tall as it was wide.  Several short, dark rods were
seen near the bottom, arranged radially, with respect to the
center of the object.  The weather was overcast, the light
level rather low.

NOVA SCOTIA TRIANGLE

GLACE BAY -- Eugene H. Frison Nova Scotia MUFON Provincial
Director writes that Jeff, a 17 year old paperboy began his
route at 6:15 AM on January 24, 2000.  He cut through a
graveyard to save time and realized something wasn't right as
there was a high-pitched whining sound riding the wind.  Upon
reaching the center of the graveyard, he became aware of a
tall, dark object coming up behind him and, at first, assumed
it was a person walking fast.  However, as it passed him at his
side (within about three feet) he realized that it was much
taller than any person.  It was instead a black triangular
shaped object with no apparent features. He says it was
definitely solid and as it passed him his scalp became very
hot. Once it had moved out in front of him, it then increased
its speed and veered off on an angle, crossing the entire
graveyard in about ten seconds.  He says he was surprised at
how fast it could move.  Jeff relates he watched the object
skim over a tombstone and realized at that point it was gliding
just above the ground, not moving along it.  The object was
very tall but not very wide -- just a bit wider than a large
adult across the shoulders at its widest point.  It was a
definite triangular shape with rounded edges.  At that hour of
the morning, it was still dark but there was enough light
coming from a street light located in the graveyard to be
certain of what he had witnessed.  Jeff is one month away from
his seventeenth birthday.  The incident is still being
investigated by myself at the present time! Thanks to Eugene H.
Frison Nova Scotia MUFON Provincial Director

CANADA AND ALASKA GIANT UFO

The MUFON Journal February 2000 carried an article concerning a
huge UFO hovering over Fox Lake in the Yukon Territory, Canada
on December 11, 1996.  The circular craft appears something
like a walnut in the photos drawn by 22 witnesses.  The giant
craft was believed to be to be from a half mile to over a mile
in diameter based on triangulation calculations and the
testimony of the witnesses.  There are no known flying objects
this large on Earth.  One of the sightings that most influenced
my own interest in UFOs was that of Captain Kanji Teach and
Japanese airline Flight 1628.  The crew spotted a giant similar
shaped UFO on November 17, 1986.  The Japanese pilots noticed
some unusual lights accompanying their 747 aircraft that
approached very close.  They caught a brief glimpse of the main
object's walnut-shaped silhouette and judged it to be "two
times bigger than an aircraft carrier or 2,000 feet long."  The
pilot was instructed by air traffic control to descend to 4,000
feet and make turns, but the object continued to follow the
plane for 32 minutes before vanishing.

The FAA admitted the objects were tracked on radar, but had not
registered on the radar tapes.  The FAA investigated and found
the crews to be normal and rational.  I have flown this Pacific
Ocean route on many occasions and you can often see other
flights ahead and behind you.  I did some checking and TWA
pilots were flying further south along the Alaskan Coast and
also saw the huge UFO.  Whenever there is a verified airborne
sighting it is prudent to attempt to determine what other
aircraft are likely to be in the area.  Airline pilots are
generally told not to talk to the news media but they will
often reveal sightings to investigators.  The FAA will seldom
if ever admit they have a UFO on radar.  Even when an aircrew
has one in sight, they will not admit it is on the radar but
they will divert you from a midair collision.  It appears the
huge walnut UFO apparently has made its appearance once again.
We have aircrews and 22 ground witnesses who seem to be
describing a craft so large that it is unlikely to be from
Earth.  I encourage you to get the MUFON Journal and read this
entire story by Martin Jasek a civil engineer and MUFON
investigator.

UNITED KINGDOM

EAST KILBRIDE - Three members of the East Kilbride UFO group
claim they had a sighting January 29, 2000, of a bright light
which landed.  Around this light 15 to 20 figures emerged.
They have all this on videotape, one exceptionally good shot
shows part of a 'creature' caught in a car headlight.  His
members claim they have forwarded the footage onto UFO Magazine
for examination.  Thanks to MarkFraser  and the Ayrshire UFOs
at http://www.killie.totalserve.co.uk/ufo.htm

WORCHESTER -- "A woman struggling to sleep saw a UFO land 30
miles south west of Birmingham.  Georgina Wells said she saw a
glowing object which hovered in the sky for more than an hour
at 2:00 AM Thursday [Feb. 3].  The 20-year-old said she saw the
"extremely bright" egg shape from her third floor bedroom
window at the back of her Bransford Road home.  But she said
she was amazed to see the glowing yellow object, which she
claims had a helicopter next to it the whole time, begin to
descend.  "It got lower and lower then it stopped glowing," she
said.  "I'm convinced it landed but I don't know where. But
minutes later it came back into view and was really bright
again and shot off into the sky and vanished. I have never seen
anything go that fast before."  Miss Wells, who was awake
because of a cold, added she had not taken any medicine, which
could cause her to hallucinate, nor was it a dream.  "I was
awake because I could not stop coughing," she said.  "I stood
up and watched it.  It was not a police helicopter with its
spotlight as there was no light-beam. Worchester Journal of
February 7, 2000.

POSSIBLE LINK TO ALIEN PANELS AND ROSWELL

NIEL MORRIS from University of Manchester in England has been
studying the Roswell debris photographs taken by J. Bond
Johnson in July of 1947 in General Ramey's office.  This is the
only known physical evidence of what crashed near Roswell.
Niel also examined the Alien Autopsy film that allegedly shows
the imprints of a six fingered alien control panel and alien
writing.  Many researchers feel this film is a fraud or
counterintelligence scheme.

Niel Morris writes, "During the early stages of the
reexamination of the Fort Worth photographs it became
increasingly apparent that the debris contained markings laid
out in a regular fashion.  This can be seen even on very
damaged beams, that the "symbols" maintain a regular layout."
I tried to match them with known characters used in both
ancient and modern written languages.  Some of the symbols
appeared much like those used by the early Egyptians but many
others did not seem to match anything that could be found on
Earth.  I also attempted to match these symbols with those
witnesses who had encounters with UFOs, but again no matches
were found.

I was well aware of the Alien Autopsy film and symbols seen on
beams displayed in the film that appeared in the UK early in
1995.  I examined some good quality prints of the beams from
the Alien Autopsy debris footage.  While I examined one of
these images at high magnification, off to one side of the
image, away from the main debris on show in the frame, my eye
was attracted to a regular pattern in the dark background of
the photograph.  The regular pattern of an Alien Autopsy
"symbol" had seen just a few minutes earlier was matched the
symbols in the Fort Worth debris! These findings will no doubt
prove to be highly contentious but it does not change the
content of the images and their similarity of form and style.
Before being dismissed these points have to be credibly
answered.  If that cannot be done then we have to contend with
the distinct possibility that (a) at least a portion of the AA
Film, The Debris Footage, could very well be a historical
record of events.  (b) The debris seen in the Fort Worth
photographs and that seen in the Alien Autopsy debris footage
once shared a common source.

The linkage hinges on the fact that unknown and only recently
discovered features in BOTH sets of images match, and that as
one of these sets of images (the Fort Worth Photographs) has a
proven history dating back to the day the photographs were
taken and developed on the 8th July 1947.  They are a factual
historical document.  The logic then is that "undiscovered"
features within these images could not be known to post 1947
"hoaxers" for inclusion in a later "fake."  Hence IF matching
features, both "undiscovered" until now, were found in the
"test" document there is a very high probability they too
originated from a contemporary 1947 source.  Bearing in mind we
are speaking of "unique" symbol features so far untraced
elsewhere.  To my knowledge the features I discovered twelve
months ago in both sets of images had never been noted or
reported.  I assume this is because no one has ever seen them
before.  I leave the final judgment to you, I myself find the
evidence compelling.  Thanks to Neil Morris.  Please visit his
website for more details at:
http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/aalink/index.htm or  at
www.filersfiles.com.

PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO shots available and
data on their propulsion systems. $10.00

US GOVERNMENT UFO PROOF RELEASED: Audio tapes of a genuine UFO
Alert at Edwards Air Force base and studied by the Foreign
Technology Division at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, are now
available for distribution to the public.  Sam Sherman's audio
documentary tape called EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE ENCOUNTER on the
night of October 7, 1965, uses the actual voice recordings
provided by the Air Force.  During this event 12 high tech
luminous UFOs invade secure air space and came down low over
the runways at Edwards AFB.  Tower operator Sgt. Chuck Sorrels
spotted them and notified the Air Defense Command.  Sgt.
Sorrels is heard on the original tapes and in a new segment
where he verifies the event as it is heard on the archival
recordings.  The UFOs are described and a decision is made to
launch F-106 fighter interceptors.  You are there for an
important part of UFO history.  Hear it for yourself, it's the
best UFO tape ever made.  Tape cost is $14.95 each plus $2.00
for shipping -- total $16.95 -- (for overseas orders-out of US
- add $6.00 shipping cost -- total -- $20.95) you can send
either a personal check or money order to: Independent
International Pictures Corp, Box 565, Dept. GF, Old Bridge, New
Jersey 08857.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe by contacting Mufon@aol.com. Mention I
recommended you for membership.  Filer's Files is Copyrighted
2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
items from the Files on their Web Sites provided that they
credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date
of issue that the item appeared.  Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com.  Sending mail automatically grants
permission for us to publish. Please state if you wish to keep
your name or story confidential,









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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 13

                               Phoneix Lights

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 14:46:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:23:57 -0500
Subject: Phoneix Lights


Hi All,

Has anyone made the connection between the Phoneix Lights and
Gamma?

Regards,

Roy..






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 13

              Re: The British National UFO Research Association

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 15:02:43 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:28:28 -0500
Subject: Re: The British National UFO Research Association


 >>Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 18:13:33 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Tim Mathews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >>Subject: The British National UFO Research Association
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Dear UpDates,

 >>Although the rebirth of objective British Ufology has been
 >>delayed for a week things are now back on schedule.

 >>A group of us have formed the National UFO Research Association
 >>(NUFORA) and the launch takes place on Saturday 4th March at the
 >>Patten Arms Hotel, Parker Street, Warrington, Cheshire (UK) -
 >>opposite Bank Quay railway station - from 11am to 8pm approx.

 >>The launch forms part of a wide ranging event featuring
 >>information on paranormal, psychic and UFO activity featuring a
 >>host of speakers.


Hi All,

Well here we go again another group starts and how long will
this one last?

I think we might run out of names soon, so I thought I would
throw a couple out for digestion.

TWBOLUFOG: This Will Be Our Last UFO Group.
ISWCDIAUFOG: I'm Sure We Can Do It Again UFO Group.
LGFAUFOGMR: Lets Go For A UFO Group Making Record.

A shining example why many investigators prefer to go alone,
humans generally are always trying to better themselves usually
fallouts are the main after effect.

But if the public need it why not.

Roy...

Watching from the balcony... What a view...








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 13

                   Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP

From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:01:05 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:33:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP


 >Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:16:42 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: C-E: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:27:41 -0400
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: C-E: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 22:58:28 -0500 (EST)
 >>>From: Sam Sherman <FLEXARET2@AOL.COM>
 >>>Subject: Re: Officer Stevens responds to CSICOP
 >>>To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

 >>>I was on the TV program 'The Mark Walberg Show' with a panel
 >>>about the UFO phenomenon, including Joe Nickell.


One of the many ironies embedded the history of the UFO/ET
research effort is this one:  the field has been repeatedly
assailed for being deficient for the quality of the evidence
(which is ample), when one of its most distracting deficiencies
has been the quality of the skeptics.

Steve Bassett







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 13

              Re: The British National UFO Research Association

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:58:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:15:32 -0500
Subject: Re: The British National UFO Research Association


 >Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 05:21:10 -0500
 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: The British National UFO Research Association
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


Andy,

 >Andy
 >Not a Director of anything

When did you get promoted then <g>?

--
    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/








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   Feb > Feb 13

             Blather: Competition - Win a Paul Devereux Book...

From: Blather <daev@blather.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 05:05:56 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:21:43 -0500
Subject: Blather: Competition - Win a Paul Devereux Book...


______________________________________________________
B  L  A  T  H  E  R

g o n z o   m e t a p h y s i c s

By Dave (daev) Walsh daev@blather.net
Web: http://www.blather.net
_______________________________________________________
February 13th 02000, Dublin, Ireland   Competition
_______________________________________________________


BLATHER COMPETITION!

To enter, head on to http://www.blather.net/winstuff.html#enter

As the new issue of Blather is so large, we're putting the
details of both the last and new competitions in this separate
email. This issue, Paul Devereux has kindly donated a copy
'Re-Visioning the Earth':

     Considered by the author to be one of his most important
     works, this book looks at the interaction of human
     psychology, perceptions and spiritual sense with the natural
     world through the ages, and explores the nature of place,
     especially sacred place. It ranges from the
     neurophysiological workings of human cognition to the poetic
     power of ancient sacred monuments - "the planet without, the
     world within". It includes much experiential material. A
     highly original, perceptive, groundbreaking work. It will
     take years for the scope of its message to truly sink in.
     Stanley Krippner, venerable consciousness researcher and
     Professor of Psychology at Saybrook Institute, San
     Francisco, says of this book: "Paul Devereux has articulated
     new ways in which humans can be at home with their earth...
     based on sound ecological principles as well as profound
     knowledge of the lifestyles of ancient and indigenous
     peoples. It is not an exaggeration to suggest that this book
     may be a survival manual for the 21st century." Dr Rana
     P.B.Singh, President of the Society of Pilgrimage Studies,
     says that this book "will be a path-maker for work on
     eco-psychology".

To purchase *Re-Visioning the Earth* go to
http://www.acemake.com/PaulDevereux/4sale.html


The question - and there's just once is:

Which of the following _is_not_ a well-known ufological
phenomenon?

- The Marfa Lights
- Foo Fighters
- U2

To enter, head on to http://www.blather.net/winstuff.html#enter

Check out Paul Devereux's website at:
http://www.acemake.com/PaulDevereux/

[Thanks to Paul for sponsoring this competition]

_______________________________________________________


The winners of our last competition were:

John M. Goodman in Garden Grove, California, USA, who gets a
copy of 'Pot Stories For the Soul', published by High Times,
compiled by Paul Krassner and with a foreword by Harlan Ellison.
Available from (http://www.hightimes.com/)

Georgia Love in Surrey, England receives a copy of '3 Myths of
Gods, Devils and Beasts', by the Rhipidon Society, donated by
Breck Outland, and is available through the The Pentaradial
Press (http://www.pentaradial.com/)


Finally, Dan Sorden won a copy of '2020: Hindsight - The Book of
the Bug', by Jock Howson, available through Amazon - see
(http://www.blather.net/bookstore/z_howson.html)
or email
jhic@tinet.ie

At least, Dan would get a copy, if he got back in touch... Dan,
are you out there?


And the questions were:

1) Which scholar painstakingly calculated, using the Book of
Genesis, that the world was created on Sunday October 23, 4004
BC?

NOT: Leonardo da Vinci
ANSWER: Bishop Ussher
NOT: Isaac Newton

2) What was Hunter's Thompson's nom-de-geurre in *Fear and
Loathing in Las Vegas*?

NOT: Huggy Bear
NOT: Dr. Gonzo
ANSWER: Raoul Duke

3) Which of these cities is home to the famous Phoenix Park?

ANSWER: Dublin
NOT: Seattle
NOT: Phoenix


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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 13

                       Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 03:03:21 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:25:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland


 >Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:54:46 -0800
 >From: GT McCoyy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 23:19:27 +0100
 >>From: Jeroen Kumeling <ufonet@xs4all.nl>
 >>Subject: Ice From The Sky In Holland
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Hello listmembers,

 >>There is  really a new phenomenon going on worldwide. I
 >>heard today that some iceblocks also fell in Holland.

 >>I hope I can report in a few hours about that.

 >>Jeroen Kumeling
 >>UFONET

 >I've just caught on to this, has anyone thought about airframe
 >ice from both large and small aircraft. I shed a huge chunk -50
 >lbs. or so _ from a Cessna 210 once and almost took out a VW bug
 >the Bug's owner thought it funny I didn't.

 >Also I was behind a DC-3?C-47? ( I was flying a Cessna of some
 >sort 182 it's been a long time) as the Doug was shedding ice I
 >was below and behind  at Boeing Field - I was getting whacked
 >until I pulled out of the Doug's trail.

 >Airframe Ice can last a long time and accumulate on parts of the
 >Aircraft that do not have De-Ice equip- ment, then the Aircraft
 >goes below the freezing level, and sheds its Ice.  By the way,
 >as  this phenom can ocurr  year 'round depending on the weather
 >con- -ditions the Aircraft was subjucted to. Just asking.

 >GT McCoy

Hi GT and others...

We used to fly Beech Bonanzas in the mid seventees as company
planes.  Having flown thru some really wicked fronts on a numbe
of occasions, I don't doubt the possibility of ice buildup and
sloughing off the airframe.

The only question I have is why now?  Why so many incidents of
such happening in so widely scattered an area of the world?

There is a reason for everything except closed minds.  I don't
see the reasons for this.....

I do see a reason for some of that ice bringing down a Beech
Bonanza in the middle of a snow and ice storm.  The landing
should have been aborted.  We wound up about 1000 yards beyond
where the runway ended.

You shoulda been there.

On second thought..... nah.

Ever pass out in a small cockpit?

Jim Mortellaro







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 13

                       Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 03:03:21 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:27:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland


 >Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:54:46 -0800
 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 23:19:27 +0100
 >>From: Jeroen Kumeling <ufonet@xs4all.nl>
 >>Subject: Ice From The Sky In Holland
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Hello listmembers,

 >>There is  really a new phenomenon going on worldwide. I
 >>heard today that some iceblocks also fell in Holland.

 >>I hope I can report in a few hours about that.

 >>Jeroen Kumeling
 >>UFONET

 >I've just caught on to this, has anyone thought about airframe
 >ice from both large and small aircraft. I shed a huge chunk -50
 >lbs. or so _ from a Cessna 210 once and almost took out a VW bug
 >the Bug's owner thought it funny I didn't.

 >Also I was behind a DC-3?C-47? ( I was flying a Cessna of some
 >sort 182 it's been a long time) as the Doug was shedding ice I
 >was below and behind  at Boeing Field - I was getting whacked
 >until I pulled out of the Doug's trail.

 >Airframe Ice can last a long time and accumulate on parts of the
 >Aircraft that do not have De-Ice equip- ment, then the Aircraft
 >goes below the freezing level, and sheds its Ice.  By the way,
 >as  this phenom can ocurr  year 'round depending on the weather
 >con- -ditions the Aircraft was subjucted to. Just asking.

 >GT McCoy

Hi GT and others...

We used to fly Beech Bonanzas in the mid seventees as company
planes.  Having flown thru some really wicked fronts on a numbe
of occasions, I don't doubt the possibility of ice buildup and
sloughing off the airframe.

The only question I have is why now?  Why so many incidents of
such happening in so widely scattered an area of the world?

There is a reason for everything except closed minds.  I don't
see the reasons for this.....

I do see a reason for some of that ice bringing down a Beech
Bonanza in the middle of a snow and ice storm.  The landing
should have been aborted.  We wound up about 1000 yards beyond
where the runway ended.

You shoulda been there.

On second thought..... nah.

Ever pass out in a small cockpit?

Jim Mortellaro





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 13

                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 08:47:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 08:18:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:10:50 -0800
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 04:14:58 -0800
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:06:26 -0400
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 21:49:46 -0800
 >>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Ed's standard don't-bother-me-with-the-facts attitude and his
 >>obvious inability to even be civil are well established in the
 >>posting. First he agrees that the originating agency determines
 >>the security markings, then he claims that since the CT memo was
 >>found in an USAF RG, that it should have their marks on it.

 >Sorry you don't understand the difference between the
 >responsibilities of an originating agency and the
 >responsibilities of a recipient agency in the control procedures
 >involving TS documents. AR 380-5 outlines the control
 >procedures. I have posted them before and it is also available
 >online. When the alleged document came under the control of the
 >Department of Defense, the control procedures in AR 380-5 became
 >the authority. One can deal in all the alleged exceptions in the
 >world and compare oranges to apples to avocados. When it is all
 >said and done, AR 380-5 is still the regulatory instrument that
 >those in charge of controlling the alleged document in the
 >alleged possession of the Air Force had to adhere to. Sorry, but
 >that is the law of the land, not my opinion, not my wish, but
 >the law of the land.

 >>Now
 >>if that were true, why is it that the 2 TS memos to USAF General
 >>Twining (From Cutler), found in his files, and therefore under
 >>USAF control, had no TS Control numbers?

 >Yet when convenient to Stanton Friedman's argument he says:

 >>Both were found at the Library oif Congress Manuscript Division
 >>in the Twining papers and are therefore under the rules of the
 >>White House (The Originating Agency) and not the DOD.

 >Make up your mind. You have had thirteen years to tell a
 >straight story. Don't you think it is about time you stopped
 >stumbling over your own versions from moment to moment? Read AR
 >380-5 and learn something about control procedures which will
 >expand your alleged knowledge of security buzz words in a
 >relevant way.


Here we go again. What matters is what we find not Ed's beloved
regulations. Next he will be assuring us that nobody speeds on
the highways because there isa regulation against it. and nobody
imports drugs into the US because there is a law against it..

Neither the LCMD nor the National Archives would remove markings
on documents or add them except for declassification and
censorship.

Twining's Papers were USAF papers for many years before being
shipped to the LCMD just as the Entry 267 of RG 341 documents
were in USAF possession for many years before being given to the
National Archives...

There were no TS control numbers on the memos from originator
Cutler's White House office nor from recipeint Twining's AF
office. Therefore there were certainly legitimate TS documents
from Cutler to Twining without TS control numbers.

See Gates posting on Feb.12 about TS documents without control
numbers. There are loads.

Time to visit the Archives and dig out all the TS documents
without control numbers Ed, instead of reviewing regulations.








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 13

                      Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:57:37 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 09:49:36 -0500
Subject: Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos


 >Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:49:50 -0500
 >From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
 >Subject: Re: [lunascan] Monolith On Phobos
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Caution is right! I rotated one of the photos to the left to
 >see if there was structure there (personal curiosity), and all I
 >saw was an unusually brightly lit boulder on the surface of
 >Phobos, with an elongated shadow.  I don't think it's a
 >monolith.

A monolith is a single block of stone, usually angular. A
boulder is a large rock rounded by wear. I suppose
micrometeorites do wear down rocks into boulders on Phobos, but
this particular object is not a boulder. That much is certain.

 >No need to have an astrophysics degree to figure this one out!

A little knowledge of highschool trigonometry helps, though. The
image data in the USGS NASA archive for this photograph says the
sun angle was 45 degrees, which would mean that based on the
length of its shadow the object is forty stories tall and 3.7
times higher than its base diameter.That number may be incorrect
(NASA has been known to make mistakes before) or the sun angle
lower due to the irregular shape of the planet, but it is
definitely interesting.








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   Feb > Feb 13

                 Tonight - Lindy Tucker - Pt. II on 'Strange

From: EBK
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 17:27:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 17:27:52 -0500
Subject: Tonight - Lindy Tucker - Pt. II on 'Strange


Tonight on 'Strange Days... Indeed'

   -----------------
  /// Lindy Tucker
------------------

Most of the UFO reports we hear and read about describe 'objects'
flying soundlessly - even those reported 'grounded' are usually
silent. However, as our guest tonight and some of her recordings
will attest, UFOs sometimes _do_ make sounds. We heard some of
them two weeks ago on the program. Tonight, we'll be able to
hear them clearly and the way they were recorded on location
around North America.

Lindy Tucker is a writer and researcher for P.U.R.E. RESEARCH
(Phenomena Under Reasonable Evidence). She has been collecting
the worlds' largest civilian data base on anomalous accoustical
sounds associated with UFO sightings over the past 25 years.
Further research indicates these to be in the same areas as crop
circles are appearing on the North American continent.

The results of her research have been published internationally
in such publications as the MUFON Journal, Flying Saucer Review,
The Cerealogist, The Bulletin of Anomalous Experience and The CPRI
Newsletter... Lindy works with leading doctors, psychiatrists,
scientists, and engineers in her quest for answers for the truth.

Join Lindy, co-host Jonn Kares and I, along with callers, for
Part II of our discussion on Beeping UFOs this evening at
9:00pm Eastern, as we discuss these Strange Days... Indeed on:

CFRB 1010 AM - 50,000 watts

6070khz Shortwave

and the Eureka Digital Broadcast System in Toronto.

You can also listen via Media Player at:

www.cfrb.com/

Netscape now seems to function the way it should at the site.

To call the program dial:

On-Air     416-872-1010
            1-800-561-CFRB
            *TALK [local mobiles]


Errol Bruce-Knapp






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   Feb > Feb 14

                        Post Abduction Syndrome (PAS)

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 06:23:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 06:23:46 -0500
Subject: Post Abduction Syndrome (PAS)





Source: http://www.sightings.com/ufo6/pas.htm

Jeff Rense's Sightings


Post Abduction Syndrome (PAS)

Description of an Emerging Syndrome

Proposed by Rose Hargrove, RN

2-14-2000

This proposal of a new and emerging syndrome will attempt to
define the cluster of symptoms and behaviors that develop in
some individuals in response to the alien abduction phenomenon.

Post Abduction Syndrome (PAS) (Westrum, 1986) is an anxiety
disorder that is closely related to Posttraumatic Stress
Disorder (APA, 1994). It is characterized by the reexperiencing
of abduction related memories, fragments, or distortions of
those memories and is accompanied by symptoms of increased
anxiety and by avoidance of stimuli related to abduction
memories or abduction related events. The affected person may
experience levels of anxiety that interfere with functioning in
personal, occupational, or social areas.

Diagnostic Features

The requisite feature of Post Abduction Syndrome is the
development of distinctive symptomatology in relation to the
experience of the alien abduction phenomenon which is often
ongoing in contrast to Posttraumatic Stress Disorder or Acute
Stress Disorder (APA, 1994) where the stressor is usually a
discrete and time limited occurrence that is not repeated in the
individual's lifetime. PAS in most instances is the result of
the sense or memory of being taken away by force or without
consent by extraterrestrial or inter-dimensional entities and
the associated physically intrusive or invasive procedures by
these alleged entities. The Abductee will have a perceived fear
of actual or threatened death, serious injury (APA, 1994),
threat to their physical integrity. They may witness the
abduction of another person, may learn about or have close
association with the abduction experiences of a family member or
other closely associated person. The person's response to the
events must involve intense fear, helplessness, or horror (APA,
1994). In a child or adult with underdeveloped personality
structure, the response may manifest as disorganized or agitated
behaviors.

Characteristic Symptoms

Persistent reexperiencing of the traumatic event characterized
by flashbacks (APA, 1994)

Persistent avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma (APA,
1994)

Denial of the event

Labeling the event something else-"blackout", being lost, etc.

Phobic avoidance of areas or situations where contact occurred.

Refraining from sleep at the time contact occurred-sleeping in
the daytime

Emotional reaction to literature, pictures, or videos about
alien entities e.g. turning over books with a picture of an
alien or UFO which may include avoiding them. (Bryant, 1991)

Numbing of emotions and responsiveness characterized by
inability to feel intimacy, pleasure, or to express
emotions-emotional anesthesia. (APA, 1994, Bryant,1991)

Diminished interest or less participation in previously enjoyed
activities. (APA, 1994)

May have a sense of foreshortened future -no expectation of
normal life events or normal life span. (APA, 1994)

May fear abduction with no return or lengthy abduction.

Anxiety symptoms that persist-hypervigilance, exaggerated
startle response, irritability, and panic attacks (APA, 1994)

Note: PAS differs from PTSD in that as the abductions may have
occurred since early childhood it is difficult to determine
precisely when the trauma began as in PTSD where [in which]?
there is a discrete and identifiable traumatic event.


Anxiety symptoms include but are not limited to:(APA, 1994)

Sleep disturbances -- difficulty falling or staying asleep Hyper
vigilance Exaggerated startle response Sleepwalking Vivid
nightmares Panic attacks Alien phobia Restlessness Worry and
rumination Difficulty concentrating

Duration of the symptoms is longer than one month


Specifiers-The specifiers may be used to specify the onset and
duration(APA, 1994).

Acute: This specifier should be used when the symptoms are
present for less than three months.

Chronic: This specifier should be used when the symptoms last
three months or longer.

Delayed Onset: This specifier would indicate thatat least six
months have passed between the traumatic event and the onset of
remembered symptoms.


Associated Features and Disorders

In contrast to Posttraumatic Stress Disorder where survivor
guilt may be present, there may be guilt at being different, or
of contributing to the factors that cause the abductions to
occur either to the subject or to family members.


The following manifestations of PAS may present:

Reluctance to enter into relationships

Phobic avoidance of situations that remind the person of
abduction such as: elevators, escalators, doctor's offices,
physician's procedures (many women avoid gynecological exams or
become extremely anxious when gynecological procedures are
performed), dentist's chairs and procedures. (Jacobs, 1992)

Persons with PAS may engage in avoidance of medical care to the
detriment of their health.

Avoidance of pictures and or books about UFOs and aliens

Marital or relationship problems such as: guilt at the possible
involvement of their partner feelings of anger and resentment by
partner regarding the sexual/gynecological aspects of abduction
and/or feelings of guilt by partner related to inability to
protect the abductee. (Jacobs, 1992)

Parents may experience guilt and anger at the possible
involvement of their children or grandchildren.

Occupational difficulties-may have loss of job due to constant
obsession with remembered abductions activity and level of PAS
symptomatology. (conversation, Jacobs, 1999)

Self destructive and impulsive behaviors Social withdrawal
Personality changes Panic disorders Agoraphobia
Obsessive-compulsive Disorder or repetitive behaviors or rituals
Depression Somatization Disorder Substance Abuse/Dependence-in
an effort to self medicate to reduce anxiety or sleep which may
start at an early age Constant searching for answers to
questions they may not be able to voice(conversation, Jacobs,
1999) Abductees may feel some part of their psyche is alienated
from itself due to inaccessibility of memory of abduction
experiences or partial or distorted memory of abduction.

Some remedies abductees may employ are:

Joining fundamentalist religious groups (Bryant, 1991) New Age
spiritual groups Self-help programs Altered states therapies
Repeatedly returning to areas where abductions occurred (Bryant,
1991) The person may develop an obsessive interest in aliens and
UFOs. (Bryant, 1991) The person may seek help from the
psychotherapeutic community only to be labeled as mentally ill.
(Jacobs, 1992).

Evaluation of PAS

Suggested laboratory tests(APA, 1994) Serum glucose, calcium,
phosphate levels, thyroid studies and electrocardiogram Urinary
catecholamine levels may help exclude other disorders Urine drug
screen may be useful

Examination Findings

Insomnia, trembling, muscle aches and soreness, muscle twitches,
clammy hands, dry mouth, generalized tachycardia and subjective
sense of palpitations, dizziness, hyperventilation or difficulty
breathing, urinary frequency, dysphagia, abdominal pain,
diarrhea, possible hypertension, in females gynecological
problems, possible positive pregnancy tests with unexplainable
missing fetuses, unexplainable appearance of strange lesions,
scars, bruises, or burns (especially genital) (conversation,
Jacobs, 1999), abdominal tenderness, abdominal adhesions,
malposition of ovaries, joint or back pain without memory of
physical injury, sinus problems, and possible eye irritations.


Specific Culture and Age Features


Young children may vividly recall monsters who come into their
bedroom at night. Children, adolescents, and adults may develop
fear of going to bed at night and fear sleeping in their own
bedroom. (conversation, Jacobs, 1999).

Children might express their abduction experiences in their art
work or style of play. (Bryant, 1991). Children also might
express the fear that they might be taken away from their
parents by the aliens. There exists also the real possibility
the children could be taken from their parents by social service
agencies if parents openly divulge their own abduction
experiences. Often children report that they have been told by
the aliens that the aliens are their real parents. (This has
been frequently reported by children and adults reexperiencing
childhood memories and in fact may be a ploy to gain the child's
cooperation as children of a young age are more difficult for
the aliens to control.) (conversation, Jacobs, 1999). Children
might harbor the belief that they will not grow up to be adults.
Children might also be exposed to witnessing the abduction of
their parents generating feelings of shock, intense fear, and
anger that their parents are unable to protect them. They may
also harbor the belief that they in some way caused their
parents or siblings to be abducted. Children may grow up with a
strong sense that they do not belong there and that the earth is
not their "real" home, or that one or both of their parents are
not biologically related to them. (conversation, Jacobs, 1999).


It would be difficult to assess cultural variables as this
phenomenon has not been studied in mainstream psychology and in
the Western World persons who report their abduction activity
are usually regarded as having psychopathology (Jacobs, 1992).
[For] [In the case of omit?] indigenous peoples, abduction
reports are regarded as a sign of contact with the spirit world
or magical phenomena.


Course

PAS may occur at any age and the length of the disorder may vary
from three to six months to several years. The frequency of
abductions and the variable of conscious memory of abductions
may influence severity and resolution. The disorder can develop
and often does in the absence of other psychopathology.

Treatment

Reduction of anxiety and treatment of depression are primary
considerations. In those individuals for whom denial is not
essential for the maintenance of a functional lifestyle
restoration of memory may lead to normalization of their
lifestyle.

Hypnotic regression must be approached with great caution
utilizing appropriate screening and with an attempt to minimize
confabulation (Jacobs,1992). Currently hypnotic regression with
a competent hypnotist/therapist/researcher is the method of
choice (conversation, Jacobs, 1999).

A support system is an essential factor in the resolution of
PAS.

Individuals with frequent and intense abduction activity may
approach normalization, however when activity is intense
symptoms of PAS may increase (Jacobs, 1992).

An important factor is sleep. Sleep disorders are a common
occurrence in the abductee population caused by sleep phobia and
very active abduction activity. Sleep deprivation when prolonged
can result in decreased serotonin levels predisposing the person
to clinical depression and compromise of the immune system
(conversation, Jacobs, 1999).

Prevalence

Most abductees are unaware of their abductions and those with
partial awareness regard their experiences as spiritual or
occult phenomena. In the population of abductees that are aware
of or suspect that abductions are occurring, some will regard
their experiences as spiritual events and another portion of
abductees will view their experiences as traumatic and a portion
of those will develop clinical symptoms of PAS.



Bibliography

American Psychiatric Association. Diagnostic and Statistical
Manual of Mental Disorders. Fourth Edition, Washington, D.C.:
American Psychiatric Association, 1994.

Posttraumatic Stress Disorders: A Handbook For Clinicians.
Edited by Tom Williams Psy.D. Cincinnati: Disabled American
Veterans, 1987.

Healing Shattered Reality: Understanding Contactee Trauma. Alice
Bryant and Linda Seebach, M.S.W. Tigard, OR: Wildflower Press,
1991.

Secret Life: Firsthand Accounts of UFO Abductions. David M.
Jacobs, Ph.D. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1992.

The Threat. David M. Jacobs Ph.D. New York: Simon & Schuster,
1998


Rose Hargrove











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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 14

                       Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:59:54 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 06:35:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland


 >Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 03:03:21 -0500 (EST)
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland
From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>

 >Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 03:03:21 -0500 (EST)
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:54:46 -0800
 >>From: GT McCoyy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Ice From The Sky In Holland
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 23:19:27 +0100
 >>>From: Jeroen Kumeling <ufonet@xs4all.nl>
 >>>Subject: Ice From The Sky In Holland
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Hello listmembers,

 >>>There is  really a new phenomenon going on worldwide. I
 >>>heard today that some iceblocks also fell in Holland.

 >>>I hope I can report in a few hours about that.

 >>>Jeroen Kumeling
 >>>UFONET

 >>I've just caught on to this, has anyone thought about airframe
 >>ice from both large and small aircraft. I shed a huge chunk -50
 >>lbs. or so _ from a Cessna 210 once and almost took out a VW bug
 >>the Bug's owner thought it funny I didn't.

 >>Also I was behind a DC-3?C-47? ( I was flying a Cessna of some
 >>sort 182 it's been a long time) as the Doug was shedding ice I
 >>was below and behind  at Boeing Field - I was getting whacked
 >>until I pulled out of the Doug's trail.

 >>Airframe Ice can last a long time and accumulate on parts of the
 >>Aircraft that do not have De-Ice equip- ment, then the Aircraft
 >>goes below the freezing level, and sheds its Ice.  By the way,
 >>as  this phenom can ocurr  year 'round depending on the weather
 >>con- -ditions the Aircraft was subjucted to. Just asking.

 >>GT McCoy

 >Hi GT and others...

 >We used to fly Beech Bonanzas in the mid seventees as company
 >planes.  Having flown thru some really wicked fronts on a numbe
 >of occasions, I don't doubt the possibility of ice buildup and
 >sloughing off the airframe.

 >The only question I have is why now?  Why so many incidents of
 >such happening in so widely scattered an area of the world?

 >There is a reason for everything except closed minds.  I don't
 >see the reasons for this.....

 >I do see a reason for some of that ice bringing down a Beech
 >Bonanza in the middle of a snow and ice storm.  The landing
 >should have been aborted.  We wound up about 1000 yards beyond
 >where the runway ended.

 >You shoulda been there.

 >On second thought..... nah.

 >Ever pass out in a small cockpit?


Jim,

I'm very surprised that you have not been informed about the ice
blocks. I have been told that some of the Nordic aliens tried
their Gripple on ice. They came to the conclusion that the cold
temperature reduced Gripple's magic properties.

They directed the grays on their ships to dump out the icemaking
machines.

Josh










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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 14

                      P-47 - Sending The Wrong Message

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@CYBERZONE.NET>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:54:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 06:59:37 -0500
Subject: P-47 - Sending The Wrong Message


 >Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:52:49 -0500 (EST)
 >From: HerbUFO@AOL.COM
 >Subject: Sending the wrong message
 >To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

 >Greetings to the list:

 >On October 12, 1961 hundreds of witnesses at Indianapolis,
 >Indiana saw what appeared to be a UFO in the night sky. Among
 >the witnesses was well-known commentator Frank Edwards. Based
 >on new information by researcher Larry Robinson (who was one of
 >the witnesses), it now appears a virtual certainty that this
 >sighting was caused by a night-flying advertising plane. It
 >would seem that Edwards and the other witnesses got the wrong
 >message! Sadly, this included NICAP, which accepted the
 >testimony at face value, and dismissed the advertising plane
 >explanation. This type of IFO is responsible for many reports,
 >some of them seemingly dramatic. While familiar to most serious
 >researchers as a prolific source of erroneous reports, one can
 >only wonder how many may have slipped through the screening
 >process and become part of the database. Hopefully, not too
 >many, though somehow I suspect otherwise.

 >Regards, Herb Taylor


Not surprisingly many UFO reports do yeild to analysis.
Probably, many more have prosaic explanations that we have not
found. It seems that if someone can find such an explanation, it
is a big GOTCHA!

Today ball lightning is a rather well established phenomenon
although we only know about it from ancedotal reports. Most ball
lightning photographs or movies are doubious and many have not
stood the test of time.

Now if you look at raw data on ball lightning, we find that many
accounts are also doubious and/or not too informative. Articles
written on ball lightning and databases have the most reliable
and literate reports. In the study of ball lightning, unlike
UFOs, scientists are allowed to use the garbage can. Not so, in
the study of UFOs. Of course, any solved or flakey UFO case is
justification to disregard the whole subject. We are not allowed
to take out the garbage. It is constantly thrown in our faces.

Now if a scientist is working on a rare phenomenon which seldom
appears, during experiments, he may make 100 or 500 or 1000
observations until he gets one good one. When the results are
written up, the fact that it many observations were necessary to
get a good sample may be mentioned, but they will not be
disected in the paper. The scientists and his peer will
concentrate on those highly reliable and well established cases.
No one comes by and picks through the garbage can.

The screening process for UFOs, official and otherwise was
always underfunded and undermanned--all the way back to the
ghost rockets.

What is amazing is that there are many reports that are unique
and puzzling. Most were observed by people completely unprepared
for the experience.

Making any progress in the study is blocked by two things, the
ideology attached to UFOs and High Culture's idea that such
studies are a huge waste of time and resources.

The Condon report was not an exaimination of UFOs, but bashing
of the ETH or ET believers. Interestingly, although the report
is padded with trivial cases, you get about a third unexplained
cases or comments that the phenomenon in a case is so rare it
hasn't occurred before or since. Hmmm. That, in itself, would be
enough for further study, but this is buried and a phony summary
and press release give tells nothing of this. Another important
chapter identifies instruments available at the time to detect
UFOs. None were looking for UFOs, and accidental detection was
unlike due to the parameters of the instruments involved.
Interesting.

On to Larry Robinson, I hold him in slightly greater esteem than
the Woods and for the same reasons. Seems that although he has
had his Soccoro explanation on the web for years he has not even
done basic checking, nor as I demonstrated before, he did not
read the account of the case nor did he do a basic check of the
meteorological data. In our terrain walk with Professor C. B.
Moore, the difference between the UFO arrival and departure
routes are about 105 to 110 degrees in azimuth. What happened a
fast moving cold front?

No, Robinson, thinks he might have read a magazine article that
explained the case, that is if he remembered it correctly.

Walter Webb, Ray Fowler and Hendry solved many advertising plane
cases. It is always something they always warned about!

Jan Aldrich












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   Feb > Feb 14

                       Blather: Out of the Marvellous

From: Blather <daev@blather.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:41:38 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 07:12:18 -0500
Subject: Blather: Out of the Marvellous


______________________________________________________
B  L  A  T  H  E  R

g o n z o   m e t a p h y s i c s

By Dave (daev) Walsh daev@blather.net
Web: http://www.blather.net
_______________________________________________________
February 13th 02000, Dublin, Ireland   Vol 3. No. 8
_______________________________________________________

MALCONTENTS:

1. Fortean Times UnConvention - the strangest show on earth
2. Tempus Fugit - The Headitorial
3. Out of the Marvellous - Seamus Heaney, and Ancient Irish UFOs
4. No Such Place - Lord Dunsany, falling fish, and no such
    Ireland
5. Yeats and the Black Arts - Black Masses in Dublin?
6. TPC Meta Holistic Systems - The Ongoing Saga
7. Dacianos - an Irish band, not a 17th century sect
8. Naked in Dublin? - Now's your chance
9. Disinfo.con 2000 - It's almost not too late
_______________________________________________________

UNCON 2000
Roll up, roll up for the strangest show on earth - feast your
eyes, soak your mind and taunt your disbelief! Among the topics
covered this year: ghosts, Atlantis, urban legends, living
monsters, UFOs, independent space travel, Stone Age psychedelia,
chaos magic, mind control, black helicopters, Scandinavian
Satanism, sea serpents, Cornish witchcraft, electrical
resurrection and more madness than you can fling a moose at.

Indulge your incredulity with our live exhibits: the last flea
circus, ghost hunting seminars, lessons in deception and the
world premiere of Owlman the movie! All this and more at Fortean
Times' UNCONVENTION 2000, 29 & 30 April, The Commonwealth
Institute, London.

Full details at http://www.forteantimes.com
_______________________________________________________


TEMPIS FUGIT

Time does fly - yet another chasm gapes between the previous
issue and this one. Its been a quiet couple of months, with very
little in the way of Irish paranormal tales coming our way - but
we've not been not been idle (the devil found work for us). On
the Blather website can be found a fledgling, or worse still,
skeleton bookstore, where we hope to start reviewing and
recommending books ( http://www.blather.net/bookstore ).

A messageboard has also been added, herein to be referred to as
'Babble', where Blatherskites may hurl public abuse at Blather,
each other, and those not present to defend themselves but are
instead resigned to reside in some unknown unwired state, their
ears smouldering (http://www.blather.net/babble/).

Before we attempt to escape the subject of 'time', a small
padded parcel arrived last month, and it bore a postmark of
January 3rd in Smithtown, New York, USA. Inside was contained 1)
A business card from one David L. Anderson from the Time Travel
Research Center, Smithtown, NYC. 2) A small 'Seasons Greetings'
card, with a logo of three reindeer pulling what appears to be a
'Time Machine' from the 1960 movie version of the H.G. Wells
story. 3) A lapel pin, bearing the logo of the aforementioned
research centre.

We were a little confused - it was not just that we were
surprised, but after racking our brains, we concluded that we
had never even heard of the TTRC. Have we met them at some point
in the *future*, and they very kindly time-travelled back to
January 2000, in order so that I would be aware of them? What's
that you say? 'Oh Blatheretic One, surely you jest?.' My dear...
when have we ever been serious?

Time Travel Research Center
(http://www.time-travel.com)

Info, graphics on the H.G. Wells and George Pal "Time Machine"
(http://donbrockway.com/time.htm)

We shall be in New York City this week... and will keep a close
eye for apparent paradoxes, and people in unlikely clothing
bearing lapel pins... Those of you in Ireland or the UK may have
caught *Disinfo Nation* on Channel 4 last Thursday night...
visionary artist Paul Laffoley was on it, with *his* design for
a time machine. We're definitely sure to encounter him in the
next few days - we're off to to NYC to experience Disinfo.Con
2000. Speakers include Robert Anton Wilson, Kenneth Anger, er...
Marilyn Manson, Genesis P-Orridge, Joe Coleman, Kenn Thomas,
Robert Sterling and loads more - for more details, look more
towards the end of this email, or go to
http://www.con2000.disinfo.com/


Some writings by Blather's daev have been popping up on the
Disinfo site recently:

*The Mothman Cometh*
A rundown on the tales behind John Keel's book *The Mothman
Prophecies*.

*Flight 712: The One That Won't Go Away*
The tale of Ireland's worst air disaster - and the controversy
and conspiracy still rage, 30 years later...

*Charles Fort: Scientist Or Humorist?*
A short biography on how he gave his name to forteanism, with a
discussion on his work.

*Hell-Fire Clubs*
You're all probably sick of the HFC by now, but for those that
aren't may well appreciate this...

As the URLs for these articles are a little unwieldy for the
purposes of email, please go to

http://www.blather.net/forteana/index.html#moonlight

and follow the links from there.

_______________________________________________________


OUT OF THE MARVELLOUS

     viii

     The annals say: When the monks of Clonmacnoise
     Were all at prayers inside the oratory
     A ship appeared above them in the air.

     The anchor dragged along behind so deep
     It hooked itself into the altar rails
     And then, as the big hull rocked to a standstill,

     A crewman shinned and grappled down the rope
     And struggled to release it. But in vain.
     'This man can't bear our life down here and will drown,'

     The abbot said, 'unless we help him.' So
     They did, the freed ship sailed, and the man climbed back
     Out of the marvellous as he had known it.

     - From the poem *Lightenings, in *Seeing Things*, ISBN
     0-571-14469-1 pp62, Seamus     Heaney, Faber and Faber, 1991
     [ http://www.blather.net/bookstore/z_heaney.html ]



Unfortunately for us, Heaney doesn't state quite which annal
contains the tale - Peter Alderson Smith's *Fortean Phenomena in
the Annals of the Four Masters* (Fortean Times 54:51) doesn't
mention it... we've been delving into the *Annals of
Clonmacnoise* for a look recently to no avail, and we've found
some interesting things. Rather than list them all in here, in
one fell (foul?) swoop, we'll quote a couple here now, and
continue to do so, over the next few issues.


P112, AD 715:
'It reigned a shower of honey on Ohinmbig, a shower of Money on
Ohinmore, and shower of Blood upon the ffosses of Leinster, for
which cause Neal Frossach who was then borne was called Neal
Frossac' [Ohinmbig: Fahan, on the east shore of Lough Swilly.
Frossac means 'of the showers'. Neal Frossac became ardrigh
(high king) in 782.]


P118, AD 742:
'There were drogons seen in the skyes.'


P118, AD 744: 'There was a Strange thing seen in Ulster in the
time of Fiaghna McHugh Royne K. of Ulster, & the time of Eahagh
McBreassall, Prince of Neathagh, or Iveagh of Ulster, which was
this: The seas have put a whale of a shore in that Contry, in
whose head there were three teeth of Gould, every of the teeth
weighed five ounces, & for the strangeness of the thing there
was one of the teeth brought to Beanchor, & there laid on ye
Alter for a wonder which remained there for a long space.'

P118, AD 744:
'There were shipes seen in the skyes with their men this yeare.'

[To get a copy of *The Annals of Clonmacnoise*, head to
http://www.blather.net/bookstore/z_clonmacnoise.html]

[Thanks to Sean Hillen (http://www.irelantis.com) and Garrett
Fagan for their help on this matter.]


Variations on Irish 'Cloudship' Stories:

The Smoking Cannon
http://www.blather.net/archives/issue1no24.html

More Damned Flying Ships
http://www.blather.net/archives/issue1no24.html#cloudship

Super-Sargasso Surfin'
http://www.anomalist.com/features/sargasso.html

_______________________________________________________


NO SUCH PLACE

'...And I told how I came from Ireland, which is of Europe,
whereat the captain and all the sailors laughed, for they said,
"There are no such places in all the land of dreams."'

- *Idle Days on the Yann*, by Lord Dunsany, in *The Hashish Man
and Other Stories*.


That's a book we've been reading recently, and in it we found a
sly reference to some classic fortean phenomena - phenomena
which seems almost normal in comparison to the weird worlds of
Lord Dunsany. In his short story *The Idle City*, he writes:

     'Then a man stood up who came out of the west, and told a
     western tale. He said:

     "There is a road in Rome that runs through the ancient
     temple that once the gods had loved; it runs along the top
     of a great wall, and the floor of the temple lies far down
     beneath it, of marble, pink and white.

     "Upon the temple floor I counted to the number of thirteen
     hungry cats.

     "'Sometimes,' they said among themselves, 'It was the gods
     that lived here, sometimes it was men, and now it's cats. So
     let us enjoy the sun on the hot marble before another people
     comes.'

     "For it was at that hour of a warm afternoon when my fancy
     is able to hear the silent voices.

     "And the fearful leanness of all those thirteen cats moved
     me to go into a neighbouring fish shop, and there to buy a
     quantity of fishes. Then I returned and threw them all over
     the railing at the top of the great wall, and they fell for
     thirty feet, and hit the sacred marble with a smack.

     "Now, in any other town but Rome, or in the minds of any
     other     cats, the sight of fish falling out of heaven had
     surely excited wonder. They rose slowly, and all stretched
     themselves, then they came leisurely towards the fishes. 'It
     is only a miracle,' they said in their hearts."


[Dunsay's *The Hashish Man and Other Stories* is available
from the Blather bookstore
http://www.blather.net/bookstore/dunsany.html]

_______________________________________________________


YEATS AND THE BLACK ARTS

Blather has received a communication from one Peter Bridgman,
who, in his researches of alleged black masses in Dublin - in
the 19th and early 20th century rather than anything
contemporary, came across this wee nugget in a biography of poet
William Butler Yeats, which tells of his close shave with the
devil, so to speak. If any readers have further light to throw
on the subject, speak now, or forever hold thy peace...

     'There were also expeditions to less respectable spiritual
     groups. Yeats now discovered in Dublin "a whole colony" of
     black magicians "of the most iniquitous kind", he told
     Lionel Johnson. While "good Theosophists" were known to
     "shake in their shoes at the mention of their name", Yeats
     claimed he was amused by their "hideous costumes" and
     worship of Isis. The tone of his letter admirably captures
     his scepticism. "The black magicians have invited me to drop
     in on an incantation now and again as a compliment to my
     knowledge of the black art. They have not got enough in the
     way of soul left to cover an old sixpence but that does not
     matter much for the present". Yeats's critical faculty was
     not always so in evidence, however. In the house of Dr.
     Sigerson, Yeats the occultist experimented with hypnotism
     and a crystal ball in which a seer (who was probably Mrs
     Sigerson) claimed to see a vision of a gigantic figure
     waving his arms around some golden letters. Yeats was wildly
     excited until Dr Sigerson pointed out that what the seer
     could actually see was the reflection of a man cleaning the
     windows by the sign on the Medical Hall opposite'. *WB Yeats
     - A Life*, p96, Stephen Coote, 1997

[Coote's WB Yeats - A Life* is available
from the Blather bookstore
http://www.blather.net/bookstore/z_coote.html]


We, at Blather, being aficionados of the works of Oliver St.
John Gogarty - poet, politician, pilot, patriot, surgeon,
novelist and wit - are reminded of the caper in chapter 13 of
his book *As I Was Going Down Sackville St. - A Phantasy In
Fact* (1937), where Yeats attempts to raise the ghost which
reputedly haunted Gogarty's Co. Galway home, Renvyle House in
Connemara. As we're not about to quote *an entire chapter*,
readers will, for now, have to make do with this taster...the
events which preceded the seance.


     'On another night, when the main seas were disturbed, I
     heard the sounding of a siren far off shore: no hope for any
     ship on that shark-toothed coast. Nearer the sounds came,
     until I imagined that there was a motor car feeling its way
     along the back drive to the yard by the beach. And, finally,
     drowsily I put the noise down to the drumming of some night
     insect that had entered the room. To me there were no
     further manifestations, or they were forgotten. Not so to
     Yeats.

     "Willie," said his wife one evening, "do not leave me to
     dress alone. I do not want to see that face again looking
     out from the glass."

     Doors had been opening quietly and shutting quietly as we
     sat in the library before dinner. I never paid much
     attention them, attributing their opening and shutting to
     the opening and shutting of doors in the passage side of the
     very thick walls.

     "What face?" I asked. But I was not answered. Yeats and his
     wife left the room. I was resigned to being treated as
     uninitiated, but my friends looked at one another. Evan
     Morgan, a Cymric Celt, from immemorial Wales, felt the
     supernatural at once.

     "You never told me about this," he complained, all alert.

     Now, you cannot ask a man to meet a ghost, because ghosts
     are not to be counted on.

     "I did not care to talk about it," I said. "I thought that
     Yeats..."

     "I could not say - "If you met Yeats you met enough of
     faery, as much as  I am ever likely to meet." I implied that
     it far more in Yeats' province than mine, and, that being
     so, the omission was not mine wholly. But he was not quite
     satisfied.

     My hospitality fell short of the necromantic.'

[Gogarty's wonderful *As I Was Going Down Sackville St.* is
available from the Blather bookstore
http://www.blather.net/bookstore/gogarty.html ]
_______________________________________________________


TPC META HOLISTIC SYSTEMS - THE ONGOING SAGA

Shrewd readers may well have noticed a link we printed, to the
site of that 'Three Elephants' bunch
(http://www.hellshaw.com/tpc) and their highly questionable
behaviour. Well, it would seem that the TPC are not ones to shy
away from controversy, oh no. This time, they've raised the ire
of one Hardy Rickenbacker, a Canadian 'research assistant', who
has gone to the bother of building a website to highlight

     'a number of serious concerns to world saftey [sic] - for
     most among these is the threat posed by the Global
     Technocrats and the 3 Elephant conspiracy: namely TPC Meta
     Holistic Systems  - a "so called" new age corporation set on
     world domination through mind control.'


Dear Hardy also has some er, interesting, ideas about what
'Brittany Spears' *really means*...see his site at:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Rotunda/3991/

_______________________________________________________


DACIANOS

The Irish band Dacianos, waiting to release their debut CD, an
acoustic opus called *Mis-showbusiness* (curiously named after
Judy Garland's *Miss Show Business*), have placed Real Audio
snippets of six songs on their website. Dacianos are named after
the 17th century sect who moulded live human bodies into the
shape of freaks and sold them as freak-slaves. The modern-day
band, however, sing songs about things like *not paying
attention when life is trying to teach you something*. Check
them out on

http://www.hellshaw.com/dacianos

_______________________________________________________


NAKED IN DUBLIN? HERE'S YOUR CHANCE

It has been brought to our attention that one Spencer Tunick -
the New York-based artist who photographs urban locations while
they are full of 100 or more naked bodies - is planning on doing
a shoot in Dublin. NY Mayor Rudy Giuliani is not a huge fan, so
let's hope he gets a better reception in Dublin...

Check out his site at
http://www.nerve.com/tunick

Or a recent *Irish Times* article on him
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/features/2000/0210/fea2.htm

Or, if any Dublin readers fancy the prospect of lying on a
Dublin street naked, early on a weekend morning, email Spencer
at nakedpavement@hotmail.com

_______________________________________________________


DISINFO.CON 2000

Disinformation, the Web�s Leading Subculture Portal and Search
Engine
Announces Additions to Disinfo.Con 2000 Program

Set For February 19, 2000 Disinfo.Con Will Explore the Future
with Marilyn Manson, Kenneth Anger, Mark Pesce  and More!

New York, NY � Richard Metzger, Creative Director for The
Disinformation Company Ltd. (www.disinfo.com) has announced
several new participants in the much speculated upon Disinfo.Con
today. Disinfo.Con will be the first event of its type in New
York since the legendary Nova Convention, honoring author
William Burroughs, in 1979. Featuring a line-up of speakers
drawing from the best of the underground media, new science and
far fringes of the art scene, Disinfo.Con 2000 will turn New
York City�s majestic Hammerstein Ballroom into an 11 hour
Technicolor dream house of revolutionary thought, visionary art
and lysergic lectures. The event will be �one part rave, one
part performance, and one part mind fuck,� according to Metzger.

The new additions to the already exciting program include:
controversial glam icon Marilyn Manson in a satellite
presentation, �Hollywood Babylon� author and magical filmmaker
Kenneth Anger, Michael Crichton�s co-writer and visual effects
pioneer Michael Backes, VRML creator Mark Pesce, and Sanskrit
expert Vyaas Houston. The event brings these speakers together
with many of today�s most important thinkers including
Cyberculture pioneer RU Sirius, comic book legend Grant
Morrison, elder statesman of conspiriology Robert Anton Wilson,
future culture �queen� of all media Genesis P-Orridge, visionary
artist Paul Laffoley, outsider artist Joe Coleman, new media
visionary Douglas Rushkoff, and Feral House publisher Adam
Parfrey.

The event will also feature a Conspiracy Theory Roundtable
featuring publisher and researcher Kenn Thomas, Robert Sterling,
editor of The Konformist, Excluded Middle publisher Greg Bishop,
and conspiracy theorist and academic Jodi Dean. Paleo-psychology
and mass behavior expert Howard Bloom will present a special
video lecture. There will also be an exclusive US preview of the
new Disinfo Nation TV series now breaking time-slot records on
Channel 4 in the UK, featuring a behind the scenes look at the
Montauk Project, a biographical short about Timothy Leary, the
brain damaged snuff film carnage of "Uncle Goddamn," Salvador
Dali advertising Alka Seltzer and more!

Disinfo.Con 2000 will take place on Saturday February 19, 2000
at the Hammerstein Ballroom, 311 West 34th Street off of 8th
Avenue in New York City. Doors open 10 am; the event starts at
11 am and finishes at 11 pm. The Ballroom is walking distance
from Penn Station and The Port Authority Bus Station. There are
also a limited number of rooms at a special conference rate
reserved at the New Yorker Hotel, next door to the Ballroom.
Passes for the 12-hour event cost $99.95 Attendees can register
online at http://con2000.disinfo.com.
_______________________________________________________

SPONSORSHIP:
While Blather will always remain free to the subscriber, we're
always willing to talk to interested parties with regard to
advertising and sponsorship.
Contact: daev@blather.net

_______________________________________________________

For the Blather archives, please go to:
http://www.blather.net/archives/index.html

_______________________________________________________


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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 14

                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:13:43 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 07:27:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 01:35:40 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 13:54:03 -0800
 >>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Stewart Vs. Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>actually were not supportive of your claims. But that is not
 >>unexpected. As I have previously documented on this list, the
 >>control procedures for Top Secret documents in the jurisdiction
 >>of the Executive Branch have been established by law. It is not
 >>a notion of Ed Stewart as Stanton Friedman alleges. It is the
 >>law of the land and has been the law of the land as the history
 >>of executive orders demonstrates!

 >First off I disagree with Stan about the reality of the so
 >called MJ-12 documents. That being said I would like to point
 >out that I personally have seen authentic declassified
 >government documents both Top Secret and codeword that DO NOT
 >have control numbers as some people claim they should have.
 >Years ago I entertained thoughts just like you do, that is until
 >I made archival visit as part of my Cold War research. Big Eye
 >opener.

Out of curiosity, how many of these declassified top secret and
codeword documents had their control coversheets attached to
them? I will venture to say none, if very few. Does that mean
that these declassified documents were not controlled during
their classified existence as required by law and established
through executive order down the line through the CFR and
ultimately into department and component regulations? Absolutely
not. If you or Friedman or anyone, as researchers eyeballing
these documents at different archives are not aware of these
regulations (the CFR and executive orders have the power of law)
how can anyone make the proper conclusion as to what they are
looking at. One needs to know what markings belong there and
what doesn't. Otherwise, their pet conclusions are just that - a
non relevant opinion to support their personal belief, but not a
compelling argument supported in the real world.

 >Likewise CIA directors and others that handle highly classified
 >records and documents are by law not supposed to remove them out
 >of the TS vaults, and or controlled circumstances but they _do_
 >as proved by recent media coverage of former CIA director John
 >Deutch who took both paper and electronic highly classified
 >documents home so he could work on them.

Infractions occur all the time. More compelling reason why the
need for proper control procedures were established by law,
outlined by executive orders, contained in the CFR and specified
in the appropriate component regulation. The applicable DOD
regulation is AR380-5 written by the Army with the other
components refering to it and only addressing minor exceptions
relative to their components.

 >Since you seem quite bothered about the lack of control numbers,
 >why don't you hop on an airplane, go to the National Archives in
 >Suitland and go through the CIAs record group, in particular the
 >National Intelligence Estimates, the material on the Corona spy
 >sat project, records from the National Photographic Intelligence
 >Center where you will get a mix and match which illustrates this
 >very point.

Why? It is not relevant to this discussion. Apparently you
haven't been following the arguments presented.  The
Cutler-Twining memo was allegedly found in RG341, an Air Force
record group. CIA record groups are not germaine to this
discussion and how the CIA does or doesn't control their Top
Secret documents is not determined by AR380-5.

The Cutler-Twining memo is an obvious plant. Today, no one
disputes that, not even Friedman. It doesn't belong there and
never did. Top Secret documents that would have belonged to
RG341 would have come under the AR380-5 regulation during their
active existence and would have had control numbers assigned to
them as specified by AR380-5. Failure to comply with AR380-5
constituted a breach of security to be reported and corrected.
Under AR380-5, Top Secret documents are reviewed once every ten
months to a year for proper control compliance. That means had
the Cutler-Twining memo been under the control of the Air Force
from the alleged date on the document, it would have been
reviewed a minimun of thirty to forty times for proper
compliance with the mandated control procedures. So, it is not
that somebody just forgot to place control numbers on the
document; it was obviously never reviewed for compliance all
during the alleged decades of existence of this document. Since
the Cutler-Twining memo didn't have any control numbers, it
obviously never came under the control of the Air Force or the
DOD. It is simply more compelling evidence that the document is
a fake and never belonged in RG341 in the first place.

It was obviously planted there in desperation because the
perpetrators wanted to take advantage of the fact that the
record group's declassification review was recently completed
and no one as of yet had rummaged through the contents, or knew
what was contained there or not. If found at the Archives in
RG341, the research team of Moore-Shandera-Friedman could claim
a member of the review team planted the document because no
outsiders had ever been given access which is what Friedman
claims to have happened to this day. He completely ignores the
fact that there were multiple reviewers from both the Archives
and the Air Force, all of which had briefcases to sneak an
illegitimate document into the record group and thus no need to
neatly fold the alleged document into thirds. The alleged
Cutler-Twining memo was neatly folded into thirds. To me at
least, it is compelling evidence to suspect the document was
planted by outsiders that did not have the privilege of bringing
in their briefcases into the Archives. The memo would have had
to be hidden on their person necessitating folding the document
as it was ultimately found.

Also, if the memo never was under the control of the Air Force
or DOD(which the lack of control numbers strongly suggests no
reviews were conducted over 30 years), the question that needs
to be asked is whether Twining ever had it, or ever had it in
his personal control outside the control of DOD? It wasn't found
in Twining's personal papers at the Library of Congress. Those
papers were picked over many times by various researchers
including the research team of Moore-Shandera-Friedman and
various researchers. It wasn't found at Suitland where the
Moore-Shandera-Friedman mysterious "postcards" that no one else
has ever seen or examined crytically told them to look. It was
instead allegedly found in RG341 at the National Archives
neatled folded in thirds, a compelling clue that the document
was planted there by outsiders. The first and only outsiders to
view RG341 were Moore and Shandera who were not allowed to bring
in briefcases.

 >Several years ago I spoke to a retired govt official about
 >special access programs and such. He advised me that some
 >programs (like corona) were so black at the time and clearances
 >for that information was so limited that the people generating
 >documents did not feel the need to put on a control number
 >because all the documents related to that were stored at
 >seperate locations then the TS and others.

Yup, you will get many hearsay testimonies from alleged unnamed
sources claiming all sorts of things. Also, no one denies that
breaches of security do occur and will occur in the future.
Nevertheless, the executive orders, the Code of Federal
Regulations (CFR) and the ensuing department and subsequent
component regulations are specific on these matters and for the
most part available, unless themselves classified.

 >.... By the way the special Presidential decree was
 >classified in and of itself Talent/Keyhole, and was not part of
 >any numbered Presidential Executive Orders or on any list of
 >Presidential memorandums that the archives had UNTIL it was
 >declassified. As I recall this decree did not have a control
 >number.

There are many Presidential instruments available to the
President to use. Somewhere in these UFO updates archives I
posted a summarized history of these instruments going back to
the Federal Register Act of 1935 which is the relevant
jurisdictional law over Presidential Executive Orders only, not
the multitude array of other Presidential instruments available.
In essence, a classified Presidential Executive Order is not
given any kind of number, nor is it listed anywhere in the
Federal Register, until such time it becomes declassified.
Presidential instruments that are not especifically identified
as an Executive Order (of which many different kinds have been
available and used by every President) do not come under this
requirement. Consequently, since the MJ-12 Truman-Forrestal memo
is identified as Executive Order #092447 and as classified, it
consists of a grivious error that only an "outsider" would have
committed. A Presidential instrument identified as a classified
Executive Order would _NOT_ have anykind of  number identifying
it as prescribed by law. The fact it is identified with a POUND
SIGN (#) after "Executive Order" demonstrates the amateurship of
the fakers in their attempt to con the rest of the world with
the bogus alleged MJ-12 documents. The humourous side of this is
that the fabricators of the alleged MJ-12 docluments could have
avoided this obvious fatal flaw by simply using any one of the
other Presidential instruments available at the time that did
not have to comply with the Federal Register Act of 1935.
Apparently, the MJ-12 forgers did not consider the law to be of
any relevance when constructing their bogus documents and did
not consult the relevant legal documents. (GRIN) But in the real
world the law is of relevance and knowledge of the relevant
passages are intrigal to a proper understanding of document
legitimacy.

 >From the point of view of a person that has a background in
 >publishing and editing, I can totally believe Stan.

That is okay. You can believe whatever you wish. Belief is not a
crime. We are all  protected under the Fourth amendment.

 >Q is in fact identified by the DOE as a level of clearance. But
 >since I don't want anybody to take my word for it, go the the
 >testimony of C. Paul Robison at Sandia labs under the heading of
 >"Countering The Insider Threat" at the following address:

 >http://www.sandia.gov/testimony/990505/99050503.htm

 > "A DOE Q clearance is required of the subset of employees who
 > have a need to access nuclear weapon design information (secret
 > and top secret restricted data). All other employees must
 > obtain the DOE L clearance, which is approximately equivalent
 > to the DoD SECRET clearance. The DOE Q clearance requires a
 > background investigation of the individual by an agency
 > independent of DOE. An L clearance requires a credit check.
 > Security clearances are subject to reinvestigation every five
 > years."

That is interesting, mostly true, but misleading to the argument
at hand. Instead of taking somebody's summarized interpretation
of the law, why not go to the prime source? DOE Order 5639.1.

        "2. ACCESS AUTHORIZATION OR SECURITY CLEARANCE. An
        administrative determination that an individual is eligible
        for access to classified information or special nuclear
        material on a "need-to-know" basis. Clearances granted by
        the Department are designated Q, L, Top Secret, or Secret."

It should be obvious that if a Q was the same as a Top Secret,
or a L was the same as a Secret, there would be no need to
granted four distinct different clearances identified as Q, L,
Top Secret, or Secret. Two clearances would suffice. Either a Q
and L, or a Top Secret and Secret. But since they are not
equivalent, the  DOE has a need to issue all four and not just
two. Robinson's statement above is misleading to the argument in
this discussion because it doesn't make it clear that a Q is
not equivalent to a Top Secret and a L is not equivalent to
Secret.

 >We find at a LANL web site:

 >http://www.lanl.gov/orgs/s/s6/ps/reciprocity.html

 >Under "Reciprocal Clearances" we read the following lines:

Again, what Robert posted is misleading. I have resposted what
Robert Gates had in the proper presented formats with the
additional element of the ensuing paragraph:

 >Applicant has an active Clearance from another agency.
 >           DOD, NRC, FBI, CIA, etc.
 >           Must have a current investigation
 >           Top Secret or SCI is equivalent to a DOE - Q
 >           Secret is equivalent to a DOE - L
 >           Other levels of access are not recognized by the DOE

 >     Submit as an Intial clearance
 >     (NOTE: Time frame is about 6 to 8 weeks for grant)
 >     Clearance Request/Recertification/Suitability Form (AL F5631.2C)
 >     Check the INITIAL box on the form as this is a new DOE clearance.
 >         Check OTHER box and write the word Reciprocity.

The proper context of the above is that the Top Secret, SCI and
DOE Q have an equivalent background check. Consequently, if
someone has a current investigation on file for a Top Secret
clearance, that current background investigation can be used to
grant a DOE Q access authorization to someone with a current Top
Secret or SCI investigation. It still requires a submittal as an
Initial clearance and a time factor of 6 to 8 weeks before an
individual with a Top Secret clearance is granted a DOE Q
authorization if the need-to-know basis is validated.
Reciprocities going the other way, would basically require
similar handling before being granted the other clearance or
access authorization.

It is apparent that a Q access authorization and a Top Secret
Clearance are not one and the same or that a reciepient granted
one or the other would automatically have access to the other.
In my personal case, I was granted a Top Secret clearance when I
worked for the Air Force as a civilian in the Logistics
Operation Center at Wright-Patterson AFB. I was a Project
Control Officer for various Air Force programs under the
jurisdiction of then the Air Force Logistics Command and
assisted in insuring logistics support for those programs and
acted as an intermediary between the Air Staff at the Pentagon
and the various System Managers. I had a demonstrated need for a
top secret clearance, but had no demonstrated need for viewing
anything that was categorized as Restricted Data (RD) or
Formerly Restricted Data (FRD). One needed either an L or Q
access authorization for that if a need-to-know was
demonstrated. Had my superiors determined that I had such a
need, even with a completed, existant and current top secret
investigation on file, I would have had to wait the 6 to 8 weeks
to be granted a reciprocal access authorization from DOE to even
view Restricted Data at the Confidential or Secret levels. And
what Robert Gates posted on reciprocity confirms that fact. It
does not support the misrepresentation that Top Secret and Q are
equivalent.

 >From the Defense Security Service (DOD) at:

 >http://www.dss.mil/seclib/govsec/chap4.htm

This passage from the Defense Security Service not only is it
misleading, but is simply totally incorrect in their
interpretation. That is understandable. They are not DOE, do not
grant Q or L access authorizations, or conduct Q or L background
investigations. If a Q or L equated to a Top Secret or Secret,
their would be no need for the DOE to issue Top Secret or Secret
clearances.  But the DOE does issue them bacause they are not
equivalent to a Q or L access authorization.

If Robert Gates or Stanton Friedman would ever look at the
instruments of law that define all of this, they would not be
consistent in their misinterpretations of what they have picked
up here and there. One can search thorough the Code of Federal
Regulations online and come up with over a hundred different
citations in the CFR that explains all of this elegantly. One
can read the CFR online from the Government Printing Office
homepage online.

 >So Stan is correct when he says that a Q clearance is equal to
 >TS or even SCI.

Sorry, the CFR says different, the DOE regulations say
different, your links when placed in the correct context say
different. The regulations have the force of law.  The quotes
from web sites are merely quotes from web sites. As it is, the
Sandia and LLNL web sites Robert Gates cited were mostly
accurate but misleading. The military web site cited was just
plain wrong.  Understandable since the military doesn't do Q
clearances.

Bottom line is read and understand the prime directives, not the
second-hand hearsays and misleading testimonies. A definition
for the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Title 10 which
pertains to the Deparment of Energy:


            Q Access Authorizations or Clearances are based on
            background investigations conducted by the Federal
            Bureau of Investigation (FBI), OPM, or another
            Government agency that conducts personnel security
            investigations.  Q clearances permit an individual to
            have access, on a need-to-know basis, to Top Secret,
            Secret, and Confidential levels of Restricted Data,
            Formerly Restricted Data, National Security
            Information, or special nuclear material as required
            in the performance of duties.  When Q access
            authorizations or clearances are granted to employees
            of access permit holders, the clearances are
            identified as Q(X) access authorizations or
            clearances and permit access only to the type of
            Secret or Confidential Restricted Data specified in
            the permit."

It should be clear that a Q is an access authorization/clearance
and must be seperately activated at the TS level.  It doesn't
automatically allow you to access TS data.  The background
investigation can be said to be equivalent to a TS level
background investigation, but the clearance isn't unless you get
specific authorization for TS which in itself, as demonstrated
above, can take up to 8 weeks to be granted.

The reason for this is that the vast majority of Q clearances
were merely to allow people to enter a Q classified area without
an escort. Even if your work was unclassified, you needed a Q to
enter a Q area. A Q level access authorization is not
automatically at the TS level and the vast majority of Q's are
never activated at the TS. Unless Stanton Friedman was
specifically and in writing authorized to handle Top Secret
data, and by his own words, he wasn't, the later part of the CFR
applies.

           .... the clearances are identified as Q(X) access
           authorizations or clearances and permit access only to
           the type of Secret or Confidential Restricted Data
           specified in the permit."

But, Robert Gates can believe anything he wants and Stanton
Friedman can say anything he wants.

Ed Stewart

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
    Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -----







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   Feb > Feb 14

                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:17:56 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 07:37:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 08:47:21 -0400
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Here we go again. What matters is what we find not Ed's beloved
 >regulations.

I suppose if you found a fly in your soup you would argue that
it is part of the recipe.

 >Next he will be assuring us that nobody speeds on
 >the highways because there isa regulation against it. and nobody
 >imports drugs into the US because there is a law against it..

Nope, I have recognized all along that the alleged MJ-12
documents are riddled with infractions of the regulations and
laws that were in place, as if they have never been in the
control of the DOD or the President of the United States. You
know, the same laws and regulations that you refuse to
acknowledge are in place and are relevant. Sorry, if that makes
you upset.

 >Neither the LCMD nor the National Archives would remove markings
 >on documents or add them except for declassification and
 >censorship.

So? What is the relevance or context of the above statement?

 >See Gates posting on Feb.12 about TS documents without control
 >numbers. There are loads.

See my reply. There are loads of people claiming to know the
significance and relevance of what they are looking at is. On
closer scrutiny, it turns out that they have no idea if what
they are looking at is of significance or relevance, or capable
of drawing the proper context. Interesting enough, when someone
attempts to apply standards to the alleged exceptions claimed to
be relevant,  they claim the standards are not relevant.

        "I have a soup in my fly and if I say that is part of the
        recipe, how dare anybody introduce evidence to the
        contrary. Who cares what the documented recipe calls for. I
        tell you there is a fly in my soup. The fly is part of the
        recipe and there are loads of flies out there."

----- Alleged Archives Research Expert, year of our lord 2000 -----

 >Time to visit the Archives and dig out all the TS documents
 >without control numbers Ed, instead of reviewing regulations.

Let me know how many you find in RG341? Or how many you have
already found in RG341 in the multitude of prior visits? You say
zero, zip, nada? Well, who cares? Obviously, that is not
important or relevant.

Ed Stewart

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
    Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -----







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   Feb > Feb 14

                        Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:32:50 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 07:43:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000


 >Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:43:09 -0500 (EST)
 >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >Subject: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Filer's Files #06 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >George A. Filer,  Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >February 12, 2000,  Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020
 >Web Site at www.filersfiles.com -- Chuck Warren Webmaster.
 >THEORY OF EVOLUTION MINDSHIFT


George,

 >For too long the Theory of
 >Evolution has been taught as fact and as an undeniable truth.
 >Scientists and educators have taught with fervor and passion
 >that all life originated on Earth.  Obviously there is some
 >evidence that species change to adapt to the situation around
 >them.  But it is a giant leap of faith to assume we all came
 >from some primeval ooze and gradually developed into complex
 >life forms.  I have had the luxury of seeing the complexity of
 >just one cell.  It is doubtful that life happened by chance.
 >The logical conclusion is that there was a Creator.  I receive
 >many letters from scientists who claim to be experts in the
 >field of genetics, who admit they are afraid to speak up.  They
 >are frankly afraid of losing their jobs, if they verbalize
 >their own findings that the Theory of Evolution is in error.

I have not the slightest doubt that you are a good guy, but it's
depressing to see this sort of creationist posturing anywhere,
and especially on this list.  Can't we just let this go and
return to UFOs?  Otherwise, I fear what might come next: attacks
on the "theory" of gravity?  the "theory" of a round earth?  the
"theory" that all matter is composed of atoms?

You are, of course, entitled to  hold whatever beliefs your
religious convictions lead you to, but you ought not to confuse
them with scientific knowledge. Scientific knowledge does not
delegitamize religious belief, but the two ought never to be
confused.  Even the Catholic Church -- and most mainline
Protestant denominations -- long ago made their peace with
evolution.

If you have a quarrel with a century and a half of progress in
biology, I urge you take it up elsewhere.  For a worthwhile look
at how evolution worked on earth and what that experience might
tell us about evolution elsewhere, there's the new book Here Be
Dragons, by two fervently pro-ETI (and just as fervently
anti-UFO) scientists, David W. Koerner and Simon LeVay
(published by Oxford University Press). My review of same
appears on page 185 of the February issue of Wired, if anyone's
interested.

Jerry Clark










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   Feb > Feb 14

                             Re: Phoneix Lights

From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@netzero.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:53:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 07:48:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights


 >Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 14:46:09 +0000
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Phoneix Lights
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Has anyone made the connection between the Phoneix Lights
 >and Gamma?


What do you mean by  "Gamma?"

Stefan Duncan
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html








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   Feb > Feb 14

                    Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:48:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 07:50:58 -0500
Subject: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?


Greetings List,

I'd like to get a few opinions from the members here.

I will be giving a presentation to a high school class next
month and I'd like to develop a list of 10 books that would be a
good introductory list of reading material on the subject of
Ufos, abductions, crop circles, etc., for high school seniors.

I'd like to encompass general coverage of the topic with a very
good readability index. Your help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Todd Lemire

--
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains,
however improbable, must be the truth."

Sherlock Holmes








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   Feb > Feb 14

                             Re: Phoneix Lights

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 03:48:30 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:43:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights


 >>Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:53:08 -0500
 >>From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@netzero.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>What do you mean by  "Gamma?"

 >>Stefan Duncan

Hi Stefan,

Not much mentioned concerning the Phoneix Lights, but Gamma I
understand was found to be included in the make up of the
lights. If so then this must widen the case slightly, let alone
the spectrum.

Roy..







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                          Re: Should Saucers Spin?

From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:29:55 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:46:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?


 >From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 23:50:10 +0100
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 07:18:43 -0500
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?

 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 01:02:18 +0100
 >>Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 02:11:52 -0500 >
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 ><snip>

 >>From: Victor J.Kean <VICTOR_J_KEAN@compuserve.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 03:11:38 -0500
 >>Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 07:56:19 -0500
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 ><snip>

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net
 >>Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 02:04:26 -0800
 >>Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 10:13:30 -0500

 >>Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?

 ><snip>

 >>One of my oldest friends is a Jewish musician, and I forwarded
 >>your question to him.  He was from Michigan originally, and I'm
 >>sure there are more haycocks out there than in Berlin.
 >>Then, (silly me) I looked in my trusty 1956 edition Websters New
 >>Collegiate dictionary and actually found it!
 >>Haycock is given as a conical pile of hay. 12-15 meters sounds
 >>awfully large to me, but what do I know?
 >>It must be terribly difficult piling up that much hay into a
 >>nice cone shape instead of an old fashioned heap. Surely they
 >>have better things to do.

 >>Best wishes
 >>- Larry Hatch

 >Hi all:

 >You are definitely right about the sizes of these haycocks, or
 >(hay) wisps: The sizes seems too big!


 >I went back to the original Norwegian text and found out that
 >this last sentence about the sizes was missing from the
 >original, so I just assume that this has been added by the
 >translator later - maybe due to more available info.

 >But, I guess the sizes of the haycocks, or wisps, should be 1.2
 >- 1.5 meters (dots or commas were missing) , or about 40-60
 >inches in diameter each (i.e., hay packed in a cylindrical
 >shape; at least _one_ wisp/cock small enough to be carried by
 >one person). They should then be carryable for both of the men.

 >However, I have also forwarded a copy of this mail to the
 >translator ( ole.jonny.branne@cinet.no ), and ask him if he can
 >explain this "problem".

 >And, in addition, what is _his_ personal feeling about the
 >credibility of the observers; after all, the events were
 >reported many years after they had taken place, and the
 >observers  must have been influenced by reading about other
 >UFO sightings during this time (25 - 30 years) - originating from,
 >e.g., Germany or USA.


Hi List:

Referring to the above mentioned text, the answering e-mail from
the translator ( ole.jonny.branne@cinet.no ) was as follows:


" Dear Mr. Asgeir Skavhaug, Josh Goldstein, Victor J. Kean, and
Larry Hatch.

Firstly, I must beg forgiveness for my somewhat clumsy
translation of the Jul/Aug 1941/42 report you have all referred
to, at:


http://www.ufo.no/english/articles/pre47-1.html

I have looked at the original UFO report forms for this report,
and the length of the piles of hay (mistranslated by me as
haycock) is given as 12 to 15 meters.

Notice that this is the specified length, not height or width,
of which the report give no information. I don't see why the
size of these piles of hay is odd to you - they seem quite
normal to me. :)

The report form itself is dated January 6, 1965 - 23 years after
the incident.

Regarding the 1952 Spitzbergen story at

http://www.ufo.no/artikler/1991spesial.html ,

mentioned in

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/feb/m03-005.shtml,

it is available in english at both

http://www.ufo.no/english/articles/afu.html and

http://www.ufo.no/english/articles/iur1.html

Our conclusion was that the story is a fabrication.

Authors still include it in their books as evidence for all
kinds of wild theories, the latest being Alec Maclellan "The
Hollow Earth Enigma", published 1999.

 >And, in addition, what is _his_ personal feeling about the
 >credibility of the observer(s); after all, the event(s) were reported
 >many years after they had taken place, and the observer(s)  must
 >have been influenced by reading about other UFO
 >sightings during this time (25 - 30 years) - originating from,
 >e.g., Germany or USA.

Well, I have not talked to the people involved - either in the
Jul/Aug 1941/42 report or the Summer 1938 report.

So I am really not able to comment on their credibility. The
1938 report was clearly also reported many years later, since
the letter from Sverre Brevik (the observer) also includes the
similar phenomenon which occurred 10 years later. Unfortunately,
the letter itself is undated. We have also not yet located the
original(?) reference to this case in the periodical "Hjemmet",
but I would estimate the date to be somewhere around 1970.

The problem of people having been influenced by other reports/
descriptions in the media, applies not only to these two, but in
fact to all reports that have been reported between 1947 and the
present.

Everyone" has heard about UFOs, and all people form some image
of what a UFO should look like etc.

Sincerely,

Ole Jonny Brenne
UFO-Norway - http://www.ufo.no/ "


Best Regards,
Asgeir









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                          Radiocontact with Aliens?

From: Jesus Millan Arias <jesusmillan@retemail.es>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:41:58 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:49:21 -0500
Subject: Radiocontact with Aliens?


Hi Errol, hi all,

Please, could someone tell me more about a project known as
MQ707?.

Thanks in advance,

Jesus







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                             Re: Phoenix Lights

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:20:30 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:13:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights


 >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 03:48:30 +0000
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:53:08 -0500
 >>>From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@netzero.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>What do you mean by  "Gamma?"

 >>>Stefan Duncan

 >Hi Stefan,

 >Not much mentioned concerning the Phoneix Lights, but Gamma I
 >understand was found to be included in the make up of the
 >lights. If so then this must widen the case slightly, let alone
 >the spectrum.

So do I understand that Gamma radiation (ie, gamma rays, which
are shorter wavelength and more energetic than X-rays) were
detected coming from the Phoenix lights?  Dangerous stuff.

Not just anyone can detect gamma rays.  Who did and how? Who
originated this claim?  Any relevent web URLs?

Just curious,

-Brian Cuthbertson







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                     'SFX Artist'/Message Poster Sought

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:31:26 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:23:25 -0500
Subject: 'SFX Artist'/Message Poster Sought


Dear colleagues,

A friend sent me the information below concerning a FX artist
who believes the AA film to be authentic. Unfortunately there is
no name with this message so I can't track this person down. Can
anyone out there shed any light on this and let me know who this
FX artist is?

Many thanks,

Philip.
pmquest@dial.pipex.com



 >Topic 215       A SFX Make Up Artist's View...  1 response
 >gnr     alt.alien.visitors       8:05 AM  Aug 29, 1995
 >(at news.gate.net)      (From News system)

 >I do not consider myself as good a special effects
 >make up artist as Stan Winston, but I don't think he should
 >have been the one to critique the Alien Autopsy.  The reason
 >I say this is, that every person in our field has a certain
 >proficiency in what we do.  For example, Mr Winston, whom I
 >admire greatly, works more with animatronic puppets and
 >mechanical effects, such as his widely recognized
 >Pumpkinhead, or the Aliens of the film of the same name.

 >In my opinion, they should have gotten Tom Savini, who
 >excells in bodies and gore make up using latex and
 >alginate.  Remember how realistic the scene in Dawn Of The
 >Dead was when the zombies tore into the bare chest of a
 >hapless biker?

 >I did agree with a lot of what Mr. Winston and team
 >were saying, for example that the blood on the underside of
 >the skin looked amazingly neutral and of one dark shade.  It
 >is almost impossible to get with such materials as latex.
 >Also the way the blood had dribbled down, looked like it was
 >coming from where the skin was, as opposed to tubing under
 >it.  Another thing I had noticed, is how well the skin
 >reacted to the scalpel, the way it rippled under it.  One
 >more was the way the rip was in the skin on the head.  If it
 >was precut latex, it would have looked a lot smoother, like
 >an intentional tear.  It looked more like a peeled orange.

 >Also note, that while I am now a special make up
 >effects artist, that I had previously worked for a Funeral
 >Home in order to see what "the real thing looks like" for
 >realism in the future.  I took note that lots of real dead
 >bodies look fake, like I could do better with latex.  It's
 >just how it is.  The open wound on the thigh looked like it
 >was VERY real.  I also noticed that they never did show the
 >autopsy scene through, never giving me a chance to see if
 >the cameraman ever cut away.  If it was done in one take,
 >then there is no way it could have been a "dummy" or a fake
 >body.  You just can't rig a body to do what you want it to
 >do (trickle blood, have entrails within, etc) all in one
 >take.  Not a complete body.  You'd have to show the head
 >sawing scene with a fake head, cut... Have the guys off
 >camera with the syringes of blood do their thing, cut... Cut
 >to a shot of a total body.. Cut.  Cut to a close up of a
 >fake stomach being opened, again rigged with blood tubing,
 >cut.  Cut to another whole body with it's head sawn and
 >stomach opened... etc.

 >All in all, you can take it from another professional
 >special effects make up artist that the body they were
 >cutting up was indeed a real body.  Was it a human
 >deformity?  Was it alien?  Was it all done in one single
 >take?  I cannot answer any of these.  I can say that the
 >doctors were cutting open something that was once alive.


 >Topic 215       A SFX Make Up Artist's View...Response 1
 >rzrogers
 >alt.alien.visitors       2:53 AM  Aug 30, 1995
 >(at teleport.com)       (From News system)

 >gnr@news.gate.net (Gina_R) wrote:

 >Thanks, your feedback helps a lot. I had the same problem
 >with the footage that Fox showed: they didn't show enough of
 >the film back to back to find out if it was one dummy, a
 >bunch of dummies or a corpse. If they had showed 23
 >continuous minutes of autopsy of something with articulated
 >limbs, the appropriate entrails and interior bits that cut
 >like real skin, then it would be much more believable that
 >it was a corpse of some kind.

 >Thanks, it's good to hear (gasp) an informed opinion around
 >here.

 >>All in all, you can take it from another professional
 >>special effects make up artist that the body they were
 >>cutting up was indeed a real body.  Was it a human
 >>deformity?  Was it alien?  Was it all done in one single
 >>take?  I cannot answer any of these.  I can say that the
 >>doctors were cutting open something that was once alive.

 >It's funny, most people put more store in the opinion of
 >the special effects folks than the pathologists. I guess
 >that they are just more trustworthy.

 >                                        Rico









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                        Re: Radiocontact with Aliens?

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:09:49 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:26:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Radiocontact with Aliens?


 >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:41:58 +0100
 >From: Jesus Millan Arias <jesusmillan@retemail.es>
 >Subject: Radiocontact with Aliens?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >Please, could someone tell me more about a project known as
 >MQ707?

Perhaps you mean "NQ-707."  This is an alleged project which
figured in early rumors circulating on saucerdom's fringes.
According to George Hunt Williamson's Other Tongues -- Other
Flesh (1953):

"Some people are wondering if our government is attempting
contact with Saucers. They [sic] have already had contact, but
they are still working at it as evidenced by the fact that at
Edwards Air Base in California there is a highly secret
operation known as Project NQ-707. This projects and its
personnel is [sic] concerned with nothing but radio- telegraphic
contact with Saucers. They have been successful in their work
and have attempted to get the Saucers to land at a rendezvous
point near Salton Sea in Southern California."

There is no reason to believe such a project ever existed --
Williamson's books, if you've read them, are top-heavy with wild
rumors and speculations and are nothing if not unreliable -- but
the story should be seen in the context of long- running
folklore about secret official contacts with ETs. See the
discussion in The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Edition, pp. 276-77.

Jerry Clark










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                             Re: Phoneix Lights

From: clearlight@t-online.de (Josh Goldstein)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:24:50 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:33:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights


 >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 03:48:30 +0000
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:53:08 -0500
 >>>From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@netzero.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>What do you mean by  "Gamma?"

 >>>Stefan Duncan

 >Hi Stefan,

 >Not much mentioned concerning the Phoneix Lights, but Gamma I
 >understand was found to be included in the make up of the
 >lights. If so then this must widen the case slightly, let alone
 >the spectrum.


Well Roy, now I am really confused. What do you mean "Gamma was
found to be included in the makeup of these lights"? Exactly
what do you mean? Was Gamma radiation found to be included in
the spectrum of some of the Phoenix lights? If so, how was it
measured?

If the above is not what you are referring to, what are you
talkingabout? Are you talking about lights seen outside of
Phoenix? Over Phoenix, or possibly over the weapons range?
Please describe your claim.

Thanks,

Josh










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                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:05:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:43:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:13:43 -0800
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 01:35:40 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 13:54:03 -0800
 >>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>>Subject: Stewart Vs. Friedman
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


I hope everybody on this list realizes how lucky we are to have
such a great psychic as Ed Stewart on the list. He intuitively
knows who did what, where, when, and why. He knows what was done
to documents and has no need to spend time in the archives.

Furthermore, he thinks he can get away with such nonsense as
referring to the Truman Forrestal memo as  Special Executive
Order # 092447 and talking about the pound sign. In the text of
the EBD it is refered to as special classified executive order,
with no number (#) sign and no caps. The TF memo has nothing
about executive order or number sign. Page 6 of the EBD has an
ENUMERATION OF ATTACHMENTS. ATTACHMENT "A".......SPECIAL
CLASSIFIED EXECUTIVE ORDER #092447. (TS/EO). THE NUMBER SIGN (#)
appears 4 other times on that page, obviously typed in 1952,
always before a numeral.

By the way the term Q Clearance was used at all the companies
for which I worked and at the many installations I visited.

Do you charge for psychic readings Ed?.


Stan Friedman (non-psychic)







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                             Re: Phoneix Lights

From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@netzero.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:21:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:46:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights


 >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 03:48:30 +0000
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:53:08 -0500
 >>>From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@netzero.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>What do you mean by  "Gamma?"

 >>>Stefan Duncan

 >Hi Stefan,

 >Not much mentioned concerning the Phoneix Lights, but Gamma I
 >understand was found to be included in the make up of the
 >lights. If so then this must widen the case slightly, let alone
 >the spectrum.

 >Roy..

What website as the best Phoneix Light info that describes all
the sightings, public/military/media responses, and some of the
possible theories to what they are?

Thanks, Stefan Duncan

__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html






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                        Re: Radiocontact with Aliens?

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:02:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:13:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Radiocontact with Aliens?


 >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:09:49 -0600
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Radiocontact with Aliens?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:41:58 +0100
 >>From: Jesus Millan Arias <jesusmillan@retemail.es>
 >>Subject: Radiocontact with Aliens?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >>Please, could someone tell me more about a project known as
 >>MQ707?

 >Perhaps you mean "NQ-707."  This is an alleged project which
 >figured in early rumors circulating on saucerdom's fringes.
 >According to George Hunt Williamson's Other Tongues -- Other
 >Flesh (1953):

 >"Some people are wondering if our government is attempting
 >contact with Saucers. They [sic] have already had contact, but
 >they are still working at it as evidenced by the fact that at
 >Edwards Air Base in California there is a highly secret
 >operation known as Project NQ-707. This projects and its
 >personnel is [sic] concerned with nothing but radio- telegraphic
 >contact with Saucers. They have been successful in their work
 >and have attempted to get the Saucers to land at a rendezvous
 >point near Salton Sea in Southern California."

<snip>

At:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1997/mar/m16-001.shtml

You will find a text titled:

"A MESSAGE FROM OUR SPACE BROTHERS
                   Via Short Wave Radio

       Lecture given by: Dr. George Hunt Williamson
         Monday, June 21,1954, Detroit, Michigan"

(near 900 lines of _weird_ stuff)

Lines 69 to 75, one can read:

"The government has the story. They also have made radio contact
with saucers. Whether they will ever give out this information
or not we do not know. They may wait until we all know about it
and then confirm it. There is a project known as MQ707 at
Edwards Air Force Base which is a project for telecommunication
with saucers. They contact these craft and attempt to get them
to land."

Serge Salvaille







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                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:42:28 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:40:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:05:11 -0400
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >I hope everybody on this list realizes how lucky we are to have
 >such a great psychic as Ed Stewart on the list. He intuitively
 >knows who did what, where, when, and why. He knows what was done
 >to documents and has no need to spend time in the archives.

For those that might not be aware, here is something that you
will not hear from Stanton T. Friedman, even though he is well
aware of the fact, having visited the Archives on many times by
his own words. RG341 is a record group with nothing but
declassified Top Secret documents. All documents in the record
group are filed by control numbers. If a document did not have a
top secret control number it would not been able to be filed in
RG341. Repeat, every document in RG341 is a top secret document
that  has been declassified and that has a control number, the
entire record group. Yet, in this entire thread Friedman has
skirted around this simple fact. This was not known before the
record group review was completed and people allowed access to
the record group. Does it make sense to anyone that a
knowledgeable "insider" would have planted a document in RG341
that did not have a control  number to it? It would stand out
like a sore thumb and automatically it would attracted undue
suspicion. Outsiders, of course, were not aware of this. Once
the document was planted and brought to the attention of the
Archives, it was already too late. Only an "outsider" would have
used RG341 to plant an alleged Top Secret document that didn't
have a TS control number. If the Cutler-Twining document was to
have been planted by a member of the combined Air Force/Archives
review team, they would have  noticed the faux paux immediately
and used another record group. Nothing psychic here.

The Cutler-Twining memo was located in a record series that was
filed by TS control number.  Therefore, if the Cutler-Twining
memo had been there as a result of legitimate Air Force
business, it WOULD have had a TS control number -- no ifs, ands,
or buts. Again, the Cutler-Twining memo was in a record series
that used the control numbers to locate documents, although the
index to that series seems to have disappeared long ago. Nothing
psychic here.

Consider this. If a given record is filed in a record series
that uses people's names as the identifier, the person's name
would have to be on the document somewhere, or it couldn't be
filed in the proper place.  If the Cutler-Twining memo didn't
have a TS control number on it, it could not be filed in the
proper place in the record series in which it allegedly was
"found" by Moore and Shandera. An "insider" from the Air
Force/Archives review team would have know this and not have
used RG341. Nothing psychic here.

The Cutler-Twining memo was "found" in a record series that used
TS control numbers to identify the documents.  Therefore, it
SHOULD have a TS control number on it, or it was "found" where
it didn't belong. Moore/Shandera allegedly "found" the document
where it clearly did not belong. "Outsiders" would not have
known that the entire record group RG 341 was filed by control
number.  Somebody planted it there. All the circumstantial
evidence points to outsiders and not insiders. Nothing psychic
here.

The simplest explanation is that Moore and/or Shandera planted
the document among these files and then pretended to "discover"
it.  This explanation is supported by Friedman's insistence that
Moore/Shandera were the first outsiders allowed access to these
records following declassification review both by Air Force
reviewers and Archives reviewers. This explanation is supported
by the fact the memo was folded in thirds. Nothing psychic here.

Friedman has erected an elaborate, preposterous scenario to
explain how an "insider" planted the document there for
Moore/Shandera to find.  Friedman of course does  not consider
that to be psychic even though he doesn't have any supporting
evidence that would lead one to suspect that. The simplest
explanation seems to be the best explanation for how the
document got there. Nothing psychic here.

Based on the available evidence, it appTears that the
Cutler-Twining memo was planted in that records series.  Stanton
Friedman agrees that it was planted there.

The only _real_ question is, who planted it there?  I think the
simplest explanation is the best, most likely explanation for
how the document got there. Nothing psychic here.

 >Furthermore, he thinks he can get away with such nonsense as
 >referring to the Truman Forrestal memo as  Special Executive
 >Order # 092447 and talking about the pound sign.

It is referred to as "Special Classified Executive Order #092447
in the alleged Eisenhower Briefing Document, pound sign and all.
Nothing psychic here and it is not nonsense. Classified
executive orders are not given any kind of number until such
time they become declassified. It is the law of the land.
Therefore, in a real briefing to the President-Elect of the
United States, the Truman Forrestal memo would not be referred
to as "Special Classified Executive Order #092447." I am sorry
that bothers you. I am sorry you thing that it is  nonsense. In
reality, it is a grievous fatal flaw by the people that made up
the alleged Eisenhower Briefing Document. They, just like you,
obviously were not aware of the lawful requirements for handling
executive orders, classified or not classified, special or not
special, capitalized or not capitalized. It is the law of the
land. Sorry that you apparently are not aware of that fact. It
is obvious that the MJ-12 perpetrators were not aware of that
either, otherwise I am sure they would have avoided using the
term and given it "#" number.

 >In the text of
 >the EBD it is refered to as special classified executive order,
 >with no number (#) sign and no caps. The TF memo has nothing
 >about executive order or number sign. Page 6 of the EBD has an
 >ENUMERATION OF ATTACHMENTS. ATTACHMENT "A".......SPECIAL
 >CLASSIFIED EXECUTIVE ORDER #092447. (TS/EO). THE NUMBER SIGN (#)
 >appears 4 other times on that page, obviously typed in 1952,
 >always before a numeral.

And that is where the fatal flaw is to be found making the
Eisenhower Briefing Document bogus and with it the other alleged
MJ-12 documents. Live with it. It is the real world.

 >By the way the term Q Clearance was used at all the companies
 >for which I worked and at the many installations I visited.

I would think so. Normally somebody claiming to have been hired
as a nuclear physicist for defense contractors would of
necessity work at DOE contractor installations requiring a Q
access clearance so nobody had to hold their hand when they went
to the toilet at a facility designated a Q facility. Even
contractor personnel that never worked with classified documents
or material  needed a Q to go to the toilet unescorted at
installations designed as Q facilities. That is why you were
granted a Q and with it a Secret clearance which allowed access
to Secret RD amd Secret FRD on a need to know basis. Most Q
clearances were just that, access authorizations allowing the
grantee unescorted access at Q facilities. Seldom were they
activated at the Top Secret level and by your own letter to Walt
Andrus and Dennis Stacy written over a decade ago, you were only
activated to the Secret level making all this talk of yours
being told that a Q is equal to a Top Secret nothing but
grandiose posturing diverting attention that on this mailing
list and on your book you attempted to pass off your alleged
experience in industry as something that never really was there.

 >Do you charge for psychic readings Ed?.

Nothing psychic here. It is all documented. Sorry if the
documentation upsets you.

Ed Stewart

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
    Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------








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                             Re: Phoneix Lights

From: GT. McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:01:07 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:42:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights


 >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:24:50 +0100
 >From: clearlight@t-online.de (Josh Goldstein)
 >Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Hello , all Josh.


 >>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 03:48:30 +0000
 >>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:53:08 -0500
 >>>>From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@netzero.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>What do you mean by  "Gamma?"

 >>>>Stefan Duncan

 >>Hi Stefan,

 >>Not much mentioned concerning the Phoneix Lights, but Gamma I
 >>understand was found to be included in the make up of the
 >>lights. If so then this must widen the case slightly, let alone
 >>the spectrum.

 >Well Roy, now I am really confused. What do you mean "Gamma was
 >found to be included in the makeup of these lights"? Exactly
 >what do you mean? Was Gamma radiation found to be included in
 >the spectrum of some of the Phoenix lights? If so, how was it
 >measured?

 >If the above is not what you are referring to, what are you
 >talkingabout? Are you talking about lights seen outside of
 >Phoenix? Over Phoenix, or possibly over the weapons range?
 >Please describe your claim.


Geesh. Folks,  if Roy has info that we don't know about, or is
from a source that is, well reliable, Gamma radiation is not
somthing that is to be bandied about as a possible emission form
the Phoenix lights.

There are three particles that result from radioactive  decay
-Bear with me if I make a mistake I expect to be duly whacked,
it's been a while since I  had hazmat traning or College chem
&physics-. The Particles are:Alpha, Beta, and Gamma. As I recall
they are Proton, Neutron, and Electron, respectively, when they
are products of radioactive decay.

Radioactive decay occurs when an atom is well,ah ."packed" with
too many Protons, Neutrons ,&Electrons. The nature of say
Uranium is to decay to stable state-Lead as I recall- and then
it ceases to be "Radioactive". Plutonium , is a man made (at
least in this neck of the Galactic woods) element but is
acutally more stable as an element (but packed with much more
energy, due to it being higher on the periodic table than
Uranium.) and therefore heavier with respect to it's nuclius.

Plutonium is only an Alpha particle emitter in it's stable
state, not talking about it's poisonous properties here just its
radiologicals . Uranium, however is a Gamma emitter in even it's
most stable form (that's what Geiger counters read, Gamma
radiation, is dangerous because it penetrates the human body
like a hot knife trough butter. it will destroy cells . We get
gamma rays all the time from the Sun and our surrounding
environment.

However if a "craft" from Trafalmador or Long Beach, is buzzing
about Phoenix Az. one fine Night, and sombody thought to click
on the ol' Gieger counter... I'd like to know that they
read....Maybe.

Right now this is all simple speculation-and I offer my own
opinion based on my limited Knowlege .

GT. McCoy










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                  Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:53:22 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:44:57 -0500
Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 01:19:38 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

James wrote:

<snip>

 >The footage may not have been authentic, but it was,
 >figuratively, very, very close and it took a year's dedicated
 >research from Theresa Carlson - not the SFX community - to
 >illustrate anomalies which were that illusive 'no way'.

I have yet to find these anomalies that prove the AA to be a
fake. Theresa's work, which I have never dismissed, is not
without problems. I have contacted her and asked if she would
explain some of her findings & conclusions but she did not
respond after I told her of my concerns.

If a person's research is solid, they shouldn't mind clarifing
questions.  Theresa certainly demanded answers from Ray.  He
responded by sending her the best video he could to assist her
research.  I don't understand her silence.

<snip>

 >Except for a full scale invasion when we all become slaves, I
 >doubt if ufologists will ever have more substantial, _tangible_
 >evidence of aliens.

The list now has the hard evidence needed to prove that at least
the debris portion of the AA is a legimate historical document.
Neil Morris's photographic evidence is about as scientific as
one can get, yet none of the many journalists on this list,
always alert to breaking news, have picked up on that fact.  Why
not? Could it be that narrow minds draw narrow conclusions?

Ed






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                  Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 03:41:04 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:14:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?


 >Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:48:51 -0500
 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >Subject: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>,

 >Greetings List,

 >I'd like to get a few opinions from the members here.

 >I will be giving a presentation to a high school class next
 >month and I'd like to develop a list of 10 books that would be a
 >good introductory list of reading material on the subject of
 >Ufos, abductions, crop circles, etc., for high school seniors.

 >I'd like to encompass general coverage of the topic with a very
 >good readability index. Your help would be greatly appreciated.


Dear Todd:

Its a bit difficult to lump Ufos, crop circles and abductions
together, I think each should stand or fall on its own merits.

For UFOs only, I would recommend the following:

HYNEK, J.Allen: The UFO Experience, A Scientific Inquiry
Ballentine Books, NY 1974, 1977.

VALLEE, Jacques: UFOs in Space - Anatomy of a Phenomenon
Henry Regnery 1966 & Ballentine PB 1974 294 pp.

VALLEE, Jacques: Challenge to Science .. The UFO Enigma.
Henry Regnery 1966 & Ballentine Books, NY 1974. PB

HYNEK & VALLEE: The Edge of Reality.. A Progress Report
Chicago, Regnery 1975. 301 pp. 24cm

All the above are easily readable, thought provoking and
seriously presented. Long out of print, they might be found in
local libraries, or certain used bookstores.

For abduction - related materials, one might start with:

FOWLER, Raymond E.: The WATCHERS.
Bantam PB, NY 1990

-or-

HOPKINS, Budd:>MISSING TIME
G.P.Putnam's 1980 & Ballentine PB 1988. 255 p.

As for crop circles, I am not qualified to recommend anything
at all.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









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                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:52:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:17:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:42:28 -0800
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:05:11 -0400
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >
 >>I hope everybody on this list realizes how lucky we are to have
 >>such a great psychic as Ed Stewart on the list. He intuitively
 >>knows who did what, where, when, and why. He knows what was done
 >>to documents and has no need to spend time in the archives.

 >For those that might not be aware, here is something that you
 >will not hear from Stanton T. Friedman, even though he is well
 >aware of the fact, having visited the Archives on many times by
 >his own words. RG341 is a record group with nothing but
 >declassified Top Secret documents. All documents in the record
 >group are filed by control numbers. If a document did not have a
 >top secret control number it would not been able to be filed in
 >RG341. Repeat, every document in RG341 is a top secret document
 >that  has been declassified and that has a control number, the
 >entire record group.

The above statement is totally false. Pure fiction. I have had
since 1985 the Preliminary Inventory of the Records of
Headquarters US Air Force Record Group 341. It is 56 pages long
and lists a total of 512 entries.The volume of the records is
9787 cubic feet. Ed makes it sound as  though he went through it
all. Many entries are listed as unclassified. Some few are
listed as TOP SECRET Correspondence, for example. .

The  CT Memo was found in Box 189 of Entry 267 "Correspondence
and other Documents Relating to Intelligence Activities Overseas
and in the Continental US 1945-54. 42 feet."

Here are a couple of examples:

Unclassified Numerical Correspondence File 1942-52, 52 feet,
Entry 2 of RG 341.

Confidential and Secrtet Numerical Correspondence File, 1942-52.
8Ft. Entry 3 of RG 341.

Unclassified through Secret Incoming and Outgoing Messages
(Geographical Series"), 1948-Dec.1957. 1743 ft. Entry 21. RG341.

Top Secret Incoming and Outgoing Messages Oct. 1947-Jan.9,1958.
51ft. Entry 23, of RG 341

In short, in this example only 3% of the correspondence was TS.

In short Ed you are making it up. For shame. Your psychic
powers were out of whack.

Stan Friedman









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                   Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors

From: Larry Robinson S/AP/EIS Kinesiology <lrobins>indiana.edu>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:06:29 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:21:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors


On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Todd Lemire wrote:

 >Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:48:51 -0500
 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire>home.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates>sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?

 >UFO Research List - http://web.ukonline.co.uk/voyager/

 >Greetings List,

 >I'd like to get a few opinions from the members here.  I will be
 >giving a presentation to a high school class next month and I'd
 >like to develop a list of 10 books that would be a good
 >introductory list of reading material on the subject of ufos,
 >abductions, crop circles, etc., for high school seniors. I'd like
 >to encompass general coverage of the topic with a very good
 >readability index.  Your help would be greatly appreciated.


Unfortunately, most of the UFO books available today are of the
type that seeks to exploit the mysteries, rather than to shed
light on them. This list shows the UFO phenomenon from several
different angles:

I am typing these titles from memory. Some may not be exact:

1. Allen Hendry "The UFO Investigator's Handbook" (a must)

2. Jenny Randles "UFOs: Danger in the Air" or "Something in the
Air" (alternate titles)

3. Sagan and Page "UFOs - A Scientific Debate"

4. Philip Klass "UFOs Explained" **

5. Edward Ruppelt "The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects"

6. John Fuller "Incident at Exeter"

7. John Spencer "Encyclopedia of UFOs" *

8. Peter Brookesmith "UFOs - The Complete Sightings" *

9. Peter Brookesmith "UFOs - The Government Files"

10. Otto Binder "What we Really Know about Flying Saucers"


* Beware, at least one photo is not the original

** Not "UFOs Identified," which ties too much of the phenomenon
to one theory which doesn't quite measure up



Supplementary list (for those who want to investigate UFO
sightings):

A. Any good book on criminology which includes principles and
techniques for gathering and interpreting physical evidence and
testimony

B. Any good book on human perception -- Lack of knowledge in this
area is quite evident in many case reports

C. Any good physics book -- Knowledge of the properties of
matter, motion, and wave propagation are also essential knowledge

D. A book on logical argument.

E. Field guides (books with photos of all different kinds) on
these subjects:
   Aircraft
   Unorthodox aircraft
   Insects
   Birds
   Kites
   Ground animals (identifying tracks)

F. The video: "A&E Investigative Reports: Bringing UFOs Down to
Earth"

G. Website:  http://php.indiana.edu/~lrobins/ufopage.htm

H. A book on photography

I. The Condon Report



 >Thanks,
 >Todd Lemire
 >--

 >"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains,
 >however improbable, must be the truth."

 >Sherlock Holmes

The above is true only if ALL other possibilities have been
eliminated. So the question then becomes "What have we not
yet thought of?"


----  [o#o]-[o--o]-[o--o]-[o--o]-[o--o]-[o--o]-[o--o]-[]0000oo>   1  ----
Larry Robinson S/AP/EIS       lrobins>indiana.edu
Indiana University            (812) 855-5073      Room 42
Kinesiology Dept              http://php.indiana.edu/~lrobins
1025 E 7th St       Rm 112    "Trying to balance the federal budget is
Bloomington IN 47405-7109     like trying to sew a button on a custard
                               pie."                        Will Rogers







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                  Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:57:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:25:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?


 >Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 03:41:04 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:48:51 -0500
 >>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >>Subject: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>,

 >>Greetings List,

 >>I'd like to get a few opinions from the members here.

 >>I will be giving a presentation to a high school class next
 >>month and I'd like to develop a list of 10 books that would be a
 >>good introductory list of reading material on the subject of
 >>Ufos, abductions, crop circles, etc., for high school seniors.

 >>I'd like to encompass general coverage of the topic with a very
 >>good readability index. Your help would be greatly appreciated.


 >Dear Todd:

 >Its a bit difficult to lump Ufos, crop circles and abductions
 >together, I think each should stand or fall on its own merits.

 >For UFOs only, I would recommend the following:

 >HYNEK, J.Allen: The UFO Experience, A Scientific Inquiry
 >Ballentine Books, NY 1974, 1977.

 >VALLEE, Jacques: UFOs in Space - Anatomy of a Phenomenon
 >Henry Regnery 1966 & Ballentine PB 1974 294 pp.

 >VALLEE, Jacques: Challenge to Science .. The UFO Enigma.
 >Henry Regnery 1966 & Ballentine Books, NY 1974. PB

 >HYNEK & VALLEE: The Edge of Reality.. A Progress Report
 >Chicago, Regnery 1975. 301 pp. 24cm

 >All the above are easily readable, thought provoking and
 >seriously presented. Long out of print, they might be found in
 >local libraries, or certain used bookstores.

 >For abduction - related materials, one might start with:

 >FOWLER, Raymond E.: The WATCHERS.
 >Bantam PB, NY 1990

 >-or-

 >HOPKINS, Budd:>MISSING TIME
 >G.P.Putnam's 1980 & Ballentine PB 1988. 255 p.

 >As for crop circles, I am not qualified to recommend anything
 >at all.

 >Best wishes

 >- Larry Hatch



I would add Bruce Maccabee's "UFOs Are Real and Here's the
Proof" and  "The UFO Evidence" by Dick Hall, and James
McDonald's 71 page Congressional Testimony from 1969. I consider
it the best single paper about UFOs. Copies are available.I also
think the Interrupted Journey, by J.G. Fuller is outstanding

Stan Friedman










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                             Re: Phoneix Lights

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:14:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:32:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights


 >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:01:07 -0800
 >From: GT. McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:24:50 +0100
 >>From: clearlight@t-online.de (Josh Goldstein)
 >>Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >>>>What do you mean by  "Gamma?"

 >>>>Stefan Duncan

 >>>Hi Stefan,

 >>>Not much mentioned concerning the Phoneix Lights, but Gamma I
 >>>understand was found to be included in the make up of the
 >>>lights. If so then this must widen the case slightly, let alone
 >>>the spectrum.

 >>Well Roy, now I am really confused. What do you mean "Gamma was
 >>found to be included in the makeup of these lights"? Exactly
 >>what do you mean? Was Gamma radiation found to be included in
 >>the spectrum of some of the Phoenix lights? If so, how was it
 >>measured?


 >Geesh. Folks,  if Roy has info that we don't know about, or is
 >from a source that is, well reliable, Gamma radiation is not
 >somthing that is to be bandied about as a possible emission form
 >the Phoenix lights.

 >There are three particles that result from radioactive  decay
 >-Bear with me if I make a mistake I expect to be duly whacked,
 >it's been a while since I  had hazmat traning or College chem
 >&physics-. The Particles are:Alpha, Beta, and Gamma. As I recall
 >they are Proton, Neutron, and Electron, respectively, when they
 >are products of radioactive decay.

Tilt!  Mistake! Sorry..... but too glaring to pass by

Alpha - essentuially a helium nucles (2 protons and 2 neutrons)
Beta  - high speed electrons
Gamma - _very_ high energy electromagnetic radiation
        (photon) like light, X-rays, etc...
         _not_ a massive particle

 >Radioactive decay occurs when an atom is well,ah ."packed" with
 >too many Protons, Neutrons ,&Electrons. The nature of say

Um, well, aside from the quark theory, one has the picture that
the electron is "inside" the neutron. A neutron in free space
can dacay to a proton and an electron. Anyway, the nuclear
particles are proton and neutron (no free e;lectrons in the
nucleus)

<snip>

 >Gamma
 >radiation, is dangerous because it penetrates the human body
 >like a hot knife trough butter. it will destroy cells . We get
 >gamma rays all the time from the Sun and our surrounding
 >environment.


We get "ionizing radiation" "capable of separating electrons
from neutral atoms thus creating a negative ion (electron)
and a positive ion (the atom minus one electron is effectively
positive) from cosmic rays which are extremely highly energetic
particles that collide wit air molecules and atoms and create
lower energy particles and radiation. I suppose some portion
of the "cosmic ray" background comes from solar particles.
Someon who studies same can add more, although this is
probably irrelevant to the Phoenix case.












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   Feb > Feb 15

                  Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:32:15 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:38:53 -0500
Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip


 >From: Ed Gehrman
 >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:53:22 -0800
 >Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

Previously, Ed wrote:

 >I have yet to find these anomalies that prove the AA to be a
 >fake. Theresa's work, which I have never dismissed, is not
 >without problems. I have contacted her and asked if she would
 >explain some of her findings & conclusions but she did not
 >respond after I told her of my concerns.

What would be the point, Ed? In the past you have demonstrated
again and again and again that when someone does present you
with evidence you turn your nose up and claim it to be an
"anomaly"; that it means nothing. Why should Theresa waste time
trying to convince you to give up your religious beliefs
regarding AA? There may not, in fact, be any "smoking gun" yet
that AA is a fake. On the other hand, there is a mountain of
"evidence" that says that it most certainly is. This evidence
has been discussed to the point of exhaustion and, yet, you feel
that it means very little.

Continuing, you wrote:


 >If a person's research is solid, they shouldn't mind clarifing
 >questions.  Theresa certainly demanded answers from Ray.  He
 >responded by sending her the best video he could to assist her
 >research.  I don't understand her silence.

Are you kidding? "The best video he could".?

That's like sending a Xerox copy of an alleged historical
document and then declaring that a lack of conclusions somehow
means the original document must be "real". Why doesn't Ray send
her some actual FILM with the alien on it instead of a video
copy? After all, the issue is whether or not the original image
was created in 1947 and not what grade of video tape it was
copied on in 1999. And let's be clear about this; Ray could use
some positive feedback on this thing. If the film is real, he
has nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Finally, you offered:

 >The list now has the hard evidence needed to prove >that at
 >least the debris portion of the AA is a legimate >historical
 >document. Neil Morris's photographic evidence is about as
 >scientific as one can get, yet none of the many journalists on
 >this list, always alert to breaking news, have picked up on
 >that fact.  Why not? Could it be that narrow minds draw narrow
 >conclusions?

With all due respect to Neil's work, it is an interpretation at
best. I do find it odd that you consider something so subjective
to the eye to be "hard evidence" while issues like the doctor's
lack of authenticity, the containment suits, the lack of camera
original, a non existent camera man (not to mention Ray's
deceptions) to be "anomalies" that don't weigh in on the
credibility of AA.

It would seem that you have a double standard regarding what you
will accept as "hard evidence". Anything that even remotely
might suggest that AA is real you consider "hard evidence" while
obvious evidence to the contrary is ignored outright. Could it
be that narrow minds do, in fact, draw narrow conclusions?

And this is the real issue, here, I think. I asked this before
so I'll ask it again. Since, by your own admission, there is no
evidence that AA is real or fake; do you make the same demands
of Ray regarding proof of AA's authenticity as you do of list
members who maintain that it is not authentic? It does not
appear that you do. In fact, you accept anything Ray tells you
as the truth despite his record of deception regarding AA. And
what "evidence" do you have to support this? Only that he seems
like an "honest guy".

So, for the record: Do you lean on Ray and demand "proof" from
him like you demand of the members on this list?

Considering your history on this subject it's no wonder Theresa
didn't want to waste her time answering your queries....

later,

Roger Evans








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                              Re: UK Conference

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:52:41 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:40:13 -0500
Subject: Re: UK Conference


Dear colleagues,

If anyone fancies attending a rather unique conference in the UK
with a wide variety of speakers and topics, may I suggest you
check out this one for this coming April care of:

www.1664.org.uk/milagro

Many thanks,


Philip.









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                  Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:22:13 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:42:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?


 >Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:48:51 -0500
 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >Subject: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>,

 >Greetings List,

 >I'd like to get a few opinions from the members here.

 >I will be giving a presentation to a high school class next
 >month and I'd like to develop a list of 10 books that would be a
 >good introductory list of reading material on the subject of
 >Ufos, abductions, crop circles, etc., for high school seniors.

 >I'd like to encompass general coverage of the topic with a very
 >good readability index. Your help would be greatly appreciated.


Hi Todd,

Having spoken to High Schoolers from my own former parochial
school, I was surprised at their level of interest in this
subject, and at their degree of intellectual acuity.  Walk
softly, they are smarter than they look.

My personal recomendations would be Jacque Vallee,
Budd Hopkins and Dr. J. Allen Hynek.  These three
represent the easiest read (except for possibly Vallee)
and the best mindset in this forest of fire ants.

My favorite list:

Budd Hopkins:  Missing Time
Hynek: The UFO Experience, A Scientific Inquiry
Jacque Vallee:  The UFO Enigma

And for pure shock value, as well as independent thinking for a
change, Dr. David Jacobs, The Threat.








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   Feb > Feb 16

                         Boyne Island QLD, OZ - 1997

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@powerup.com.au>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:01:40 +1100
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:10:56 -0500
Subject: Boyne Island QLD, OZ - 1997

The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia

Boyne Island UFO 1997


UFO Sighting Report 17th August 1997

After a long telephone conversation with Mrs E Gourlay I was
able to acquire this report. This is not the first time an
object of this size and description has been reported - the last
was just off the coast of Tully by Claire Knobel, independent
researcher.

Regards Diane

Report By E Gourlay Eyewitness

At approximately 7.10pm on the 17th August 1997 (the full moon
was on the 18th) we were driving north from Bororan to  Boyne
Island in Central Queensland on a two lane highway. Depending on
conditions, the journey normally takes between thirty to forty
minutes.  It was a bright, calm cloudless night, being almost
full moon.

We were in the area of an old station called Inveragh, about
forty two kilometres south of Gladstone.  Heather was driving,
her two year old son was in the back seat and I was star gazing
at a large star/planet which stood out brightly in the north
west sky.  I was just about to comment on it when something
above and to the left hand side of the windscreen blocked my
view.  My first thought was a low flying plane. A couple of
seconds later it was obviously like no other aircraft we had
ever seen or heard of.

This craft was flying at a fairly slow and steady pace.  It was
silent and not very far above tree top height as far as we could
tell.  What I saw were two long horizontal rows of closely
spaced, large round multi-coloured lights with two shorter
vertical rows of round multicoloured lights at each end,
effectively forming a huge rectangle.  The vertical rows seemed
to extend a little beyond the horizontal, giving the impression
of cut off corners on the outside of the structure.  The lights
were steady, not flashing as in a normal aircraft.

As it flew from west to east over the top of the car we were
able to look up into the centre of the rectangle but it was
impossible to identify anything within, owing to the dazzle of
the surrounding lights.  We both had the impression of a
somewhat concave interior with grey/black shadowy shapes.

In the clear moonlight we could see no wings or similar
structure beyond that which the lights were attached to.  What
may have been above all this, we couldn�t even hazard a guess.
While Heather was looking for a place to pull over, I looked
back and all I could see was one large bright white light
skimming the tree tops and vanishing down out of sight.

Heather�s recollection is basically the same regarding the
lights, huge size and shape of the craft and area sighting.  She
cannot recall seeing the whole craft at any one time and I am of
the same opinion - except for a half remembered image of the
craft at a higher altitude as it went to the east (right) and
behind us.  The fact that Heather was driving and looking for a
place to pull over would have had that effect.  She recalls
seeing structure on which the lights were fixed and I seem to
remember the lights following the contours of the craft.
Heather tells me she couldn�t  pull over suddenly because she
thought there was a car following behind. When we parked, no car
passed us.

The size of craft and lights,


                OOOOOOOOOOO
                O/-------------------\O
                O|                   |O
                O|               |O
                O\-------------------/O
                OOOOOOOOOOO


along with the number of lights is very difficult to determine
owing to the element of surprise and I suppose, the very awe of
it all.  Trying to compare sizes to known things and remembering
the time it took for the craft to fly over the car, we have come
up with the following estimation but we would not be prepared to
swear to actual size in a court of law!

The craft would have been in the region of 250-300 feet in
length, (we have not even considered the width!)  There could
have been anywhere from sixty to a hundred lights on the
underside of it and when I close one eye and try to �frame a
light with my hands I get a diameter of approximately 5 inches
at that height.  The length of a football field would be a close
estimation of size, at one point it totally filled the length of
the windscreen. The colours were red, yellow/white, blue and/or
green.

A pilot friend has plotted the approximate co-ordinates for me
and they are; latitude 24 degrees and 10 minutes south and
longitude 151 degrees and 28 minutes east.  The car did not
develop any electrical problems and our journey took no longer
than normal, allowing for time parked off the road.  I phoned
the police station later that night to see if anyone else had
reported any peculiar craft in the vicinity, but the reply was
negative.  He took my phone number to passs on to anyone else
who happened to phone, but I had no calls on the matter.



Regards Diane Harrison

Director Of The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
Co Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE KEITH BASTERFIELD NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: tkbnetw@powerup.com.au
E-mail: ufologist@powerup.com.au
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb760221

ADMINISTRATION:

THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

PO Box 805
Springwood  Qld  4127
Australia
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number
          1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Disclaimer: The Keith Basterfield List Owners are not
responsible for the content or misuse of this list.
However, personal insults, flaming will not be tolerated.
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 16

                          Re: Should Saucers Spin?

From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:46:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:15:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?


 >From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:29:55 +0100
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:46:01 -0500
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >>From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >>Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 23:50:10 +0100
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca
 >>Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?

 >>>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>>Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 01:02:18 +0100
 >>>Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 02:11:52 -0500
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 ><snip>

 >>From: Victor J.Kean
 >><VICTOR_J_KEAN@compuserve.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 03:11:38 -0500
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >><snip>
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net

 >>>Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 02:04:26 -0800
 >>>Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 10:13:30 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: Should Saucers Spin?

<snip>

 >Hi List:

 >Referring to the above mentioned text, the answering e-mail from
 >the translator ( ole.jonny.branne@cinet.no ) was as follows:

<snip>

 >Regarding the 1952 Spitzbergen story at
 >http://www.ufo.no/artikler/1991spesial.html ,
 >mentioned in

 >http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/feb/m03-005.shtml,
 >it is available in english at both
 >http://www.ufo.no/english/articles/afu.html and
 >http://www.ufo.no/english/articles/iur1.html

 >Our conclusion was that the story is a fabrication.
 >Authors still include it in their books as evidence for all
 >kinds of wild theories, the latest being Alec Maclellan "The
 >Hollow Earth Enigma", published 1999.

<snip>

 >Sincerely,Ole Jonny Brenne
 >UFO-Norway - http://www.ufo.no/ "

 >Best Regards,
 >Asgeir


Hi List:

As a some kind of "substitution" to this Spitzbergen (Svalbard)
story - since it was (believed/claimed to be) a fabrication - I
will instead mention a story, or observation, told by Monica
Kristensen (Sols), in one of her books (Det magiske landet;
"The Magical Country").

She's one of Norway's famous explorers/adventurers/scientists -
like F. Nansen, R. Amundsen and T. Heyerdahl - and a
glaciologist and meteorologist by profession. Today she's the
leader of Norges Meteorologiske Institutt's, i.e.,

http://www.dnmi.no , or

http://www.dnmi.no/eng_index.html ,

dept. of Northern Norway in Troms (Vervarslinga for Nord-Norge
9293 TROMS Telefonnr. +47 77 68 40 44 Telefaksnr.
+47 77 68 90 03 e-post: meteonord@dnmi.no , Kirkegrdsveien
60, Troms)

References to Monica Kristensen and her explorations, might be
found by searching her name (sometimes also spelled Christensen) at
the following URLs:

http://www.alltheweb.com/

- e.g., http://212.186.113.12/konf/konf.html ("2nd Scandinavian
Conference of Extraterrestrial Intelligence and Human Future"),

or

http://www.britannica.com

- e.g., http://odin.dep.no/ud/nornytt/uda-299.html

The observation took place in 1977 on the island of Spitzbergen
(Svalbard), off Northern Norway's coast, and included - in short
- the following:


- She observed a light ("object") from her office in the town of
   Longyerbyen

- The light appeared to be circular/spherical, and couple of
   meters in diameter, having no marks or contours within the
   circle

- Claimed to be no (Norwegian or Russian) helicopter, especially
   due to no engine noise

- The light moved "quickly"

- A weak conical light ray was emitted from the light
   ("object"), illuminating the glacier below

- The "object" is hovering back and forth 100 meters above the
   glacier below - using the emitted light ray - sometimes
   static, as looking for something

- The light moved quickly over the fjord at New lesund, and
   disappeared over the Shetelig mountain.

- The light was recorded by an All Sky camera, and _was_ really
   seen on the film by the meteorologists; thus - it was both
   measured and registered.

(In Danish: http://www.sufoi.dk/artik-un/1997-312.htm , or in
Norwegian by Ole Jonny Brnne, UFO over Svalbard, UFO 3/1996,
issued by UFO-Norge.)

In my opinion her story seems "fairly credible" - unlike the
other Spitzbergen (Svalbard) story (which was claimed to be a
fabrication).


It should specifically be noted that this "light event" took
place during the cold war, where both Russians and Norwegians
(miners and scientists) were situated on - each, "separated"
part of - the island of Spitzbergen.


Thus, some kind of Russian (military; espionage?) activity
cannot be eliminated here, and the "object" _could_, for
instance, be a remotely piloted aircraft, e.g., blimp.

For more info., please contact ole.jonny.branne@cinet.no or
Monica Kristensen Sols at meteonord@dnmi.no .


Regards,

Asgeir











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   Feb > Feb 16

                   Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:36:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:22:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors


 >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:06:29 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Larry Robinson S/AP/EIS Kinesiology <lrobins>indiana.edu>
 >Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates>sympatico.ca>


<snip>

Hello Larry,

It seems I've answered your e-mails in reverse order in which
they were received.

The principal of the school has cancelled our presentation
unfortunately.

I'm still going to develop an outline and associated material
for a school level presentation and possibly contact other
school administrators and hopefully develop an interest among
them in the Michigan area.

Your list is greatly appreciated and will help me develop a
comprehensive recommended reading list for these young adults.

I have noticed that the older UFO books (my favorites) are
becoming harder and harder to locate. I guess the collectors
are gobbling them up and refusing to let go of them.

I also loved your comment on my quote that appeared at the
bottom of my e-mail, you always keep me on my toes!

Take care Larry,

Todd
--

"We would rather, I suspect, fear the unknown than convert it to
the known.  What we may fear more deeply than the unknown itself
is the prospect of actually knowing it.  Happily for all of us
there are people like yourself who refuse to be bound by such
mass refusal of reality, who are not afraid to seek and learn."

Coral Lorenzen : Flying Saucers - The Startling Evidence of The
Invasion from Outer Space







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   Feb > Feb 16

                             Re: Phoneix Lights

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 03:20:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:27:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights


 >>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:24:50 +0100
 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Well Roy, now I am really confused. What do you mean "Gamma was
 >>found to be included in the makeup of these lights"? Exactly
 >>what do you mean? Was Gamma radiation found to be included in
 >>the spectrum of some of the Phoenix lights? If so, how was it
 >>measured?


Hi Josh & All,

Yes I should have been a bit clearer. This was revealed on a
tape I watched not so long ago from Village Labs Arizona Jim
Diletoso.

It was found that Gamma had something to do with the lights
under analysis, this ruled out army flares and such.

I will dig the video out and post the title. But I think if this
is the case then it must widen the case somewhat?

Regards,

Roy..








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   Feb > Feb 16

                  Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:19:26 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:34:39 -0500
Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip


 >Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:32:15 -0600
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Ed Gehrman
 >>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:53:22 -0800
 >>Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca


Roger,

You wrote: >


 >>If a person's research is solid, they shouldn't mind clarifing
 >>questions.  Theresa certainly demanded answers from Ray.  He
 >>responded by sending her the best video he could to assist her
 >>research.  I don't understand her silence.

 >Are you kidding? "The best video he could".?

 >That's like sending a Xerox copy of an alleged historical
 >document and then declaring that a lack of conclusions somehow
 >means the original document must be "real". Why doesn't Ray send
 >her some actual FILM with the alien on it instead of a video
 >copy? After all, the issue is whether or not the original image
 >was created in 1947 and not what grade of video tape it was
 >copied on in 1999. And let's be clear about this; Ray could use
 >some positive feedback on this thing. If the film is real, he
 >has nothing to lose and everything to gain.


Not my argument but can I again throw in what Volker Speilberg
stated in a French TV show on the AA in Oct 1995, that Ray
_dosn't_ have any film to send _anyone_, he(Volker) has it _all_
locked away "somewhere" in darkest Europe.

In demanding of Ray you're really asking the wrong guy.

And don't tell Sony that BetaCam's got all the technical Oomph
of a Xerox copier they might just cross you off their Christmas
card list.

<snip>

 >Finally, you offered:

Ah....my bit..

 >>The list now has the hard evidence needed to prove >that at
 >>least the debris portion of the AA is a legimate >historical
 >>document. Neil Morris's photographic evidence is about as
 >>scientific as one can get, yet none of the many journalists on
 >>this list, always alert to breaking news, have picked up on
 >>that fact.  Why not? Could it be that narrow minds draw narrow
 >>conclusions?

 >With all due respect to Neil's work,

Thank you.

 >it is an interpretation at best.

But arn't most things when we have nothing "physical" other than
images to go on, we interpret the images contents. Thomas DuBose
when first interviewed regarding the events in Fort Worth
recalled nothing about _any_ photographs being taken, infact he
would not accept _any_ _had_ been taken, until thoses showing
him present were forwarded. He had to interpret what he saw,
himself in Ramey's office. (And _this_ is an accepted witness
who claims the debris was switched?.)

On a more subtle notes we do know Bond Johnson was there, not
only because he says so but by interpreting his hat being
present in the background on one of the shots. On an even more
subtle note we can interpret that the debris shown has been in,
or exposed to, the open air and vegetation, a broken plant stem
can be seen with the wrapping paper. We can also make logical
interpretations when we take in other fine details within the
images, Jesse Marcel also seems to have been recently in the
great outdoors, his plucked and muddied pants and scuffed dusty
boots bare witness to this, an interpretation yes but a valid
one I think, coexisting with that of the plant stem in the
debris.

 >I do find it odd that you consider something so subjective
 >to the eye to be "hard evidence" while issues like the doctor's
 >lack of authenticity,

Go back to the archives at the time Roger, 95/96, it all
depended on who you asked and their individual background in
medicine, you could trot out as many (qualified in surgery) for,
as against the "doctors" authenticity in methods, style and
practices. If I'm honest here you usually found the anti lobby
selected the anti experts and visa-versa, it's the way the
game's played I guess.

 >the containment suits,

Those bloody suits, I still don't see the relevance you place on
regs brought in some 14 years _after_ the event. Are you aware
that the people working directly on the first CP series of
reactors did so _without_ _any_ protective clothing at all, and
yes eventually they did get sick. As I said before, hindsight
and a long learning curve is a handy thing to have. Nuclear
energy was still a wonderful but deadly plaything in the late
1940's.

 >the lack of camera original, [film?]

Mmmmm We've got original film, but it hasn't stopped people
slagging off the work of the RPIT has it??

 >a non existent camera man

Mmmmm _ours_ is still with us but it still hasn't stopped people
slagging _us_ off.

 >(not to mention Ray's deceptions)

Mmmmm the US Govt has now changed their story, how many times?
re the FW debris and Roswell, _and_ admitted they _did_ lie to
the world back in 1947.

But _that_ again hasn't stopped people slagging off the work of the
RPIT.

 >to be "anomalies" that don't weigh in on the
 >credibility of AA.


Lets be up-frount here , you think if your AA film shopping list
all checked out it would make a shred of difference to attitudes
in the end?.

Not a chance...

It would _still_ only be a piece of film.... wouldn't it?.

Not real _hard_ evidence.

Like the FW pics, just a few old images on old bits of film.

And here we hit _the_ real snag don't we, just _what_ _level_ of
proof do people want in these type of cases, lets have some
answers, please,

Just what _will_ satisfy people as _hard_ _evidence_.....Proof,

I'd be very interested to see what answers come from which
people.

Roger you first, have a bash at the AA film, what would _you_
need and define as _hard_ _evidence_ the AA film is a genuine
historical document?.

What would be _your_ level of proof?.

After all once the "pro" lobby knows, then maybe they might just
come up with it for you and save us all going round and round in
circles.

Neil.




--
*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *
Neil Morris.       /101101101 Virtual Bumper Stickers Inc 10110101010\
Dept of Physics.   1                                                 1
Univ of Manchester 0                                                 0
Schuster Labs.     1  Computer Programmers DO IT with BITS of BYTES  1
Brunswick St.      0                                                 0
Manchester.        1                                                 1
UK.                \0101010110010110110010110101101011011110101011010/
G8KOQ


              E-mail: neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk

Roswell and Alien Autopsy Archive->  http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/
Dave Willetts Home Page->    http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/dave_willetts/
Mike Sterling Home Page->    http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/mike-s/
Tim Morgan Home Page   ->    http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/tim-m/

*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *








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   Feb > Feb 16

                    Re: Heads Up for Fri/Sat & STARSHINE

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:06:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:35:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Heads Up for Fri/Sat & STARSHINE


Space Science News for February 16, 2000

STARSHINE Returns to Cinder:

The STARSHINE satellite, designed to study the influence of
solar activity on our planet's atmosphere, will return to Earth
on February 18 or 19.  As it disintegrates in the atmosphere,
the descending satellite will resemble a slow-moving meteor or
fireball.

FULL STORY at

http://www.spacescience.com/headlines/y2000/ast16feb_1.htm








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   Feb > Feb 16

                 Second MGS Photograph of Phobos 'Monolith'

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:18:29 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:57:12 -0500
Subject: Second MGS Photograph of Phobos 'Monolith'


I have posted a new web page on the Phobos objects at:

http://www.vgl.org/webfiles/mars/phobos2/phobos2.htm

It describes:

(1) an earlier, lower resolution  MGS image of Phobos that also
shows the object and provides some useful context for
interpreting the higher resolution image.

(2) a group of objects with unusually elongated to the west of
the "monolith" that was first pointed out by Mr. Cashman. The
sun elevation was evidently high at their position, making the
length of the shadows perhaps even more extraordinary than the
"monolith."

(3) Information on the lighting geometry data from the USGS
archive that suggests the surprisingly high sun elevation listed
for the monolith image may be more accurate than I had supposed.

Lan Fleming







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                  Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:42:20 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:01:20 -0500
Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip


 >From: Neil Morris
 >Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:19:26 +0000
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:34:39 -0500
 >Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

 >>Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:32:15 -0600
 >>From: Roger Evans
 >>Subject: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Previously, I wrote:

 >>Why doesn't Ray send
 >>her some actual FILM with the alien on it instead of a video
 >>copy? After all, the issue is whether or not the original image
 >>was created in 1947 and not what grade of video tape it was
 >>copied on in 1999. And let's be clear about this; Ray could use
 >>some positive feedback on this thing. If the film is real, he
 >>has nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Neil replied:

 >Not my argument but can I again throw in what Volker Speilberg
 >stated in a French TV show on the AA in Oct 1995, that Ray
 >_dosn't_ have any film to send _anyone_, he(Volker) has it _all_
 >locked away "somewhere" in darkest Europe.

 >In demanding of Ray you're really asking the wrong guy.

Hi, Neil!

The problem here is that the goal post keeps getting moved.
First Ray claims to have camera original. Then when Bob Shell
busts Ray's chops that he only has dupe film, Ray crabs a bit
and says, "Oh, yeah. That's right. Dupe film." Then when Bob and
others make it clear that they'd like to see film of some kind,
any kind (dupe or original) with the alien on it, suddenly what
was originally available to Ray is no longer; Volker supposedly
has it ALL locked away. A pretty convenient dodge for Ray if you
ask me.

Moving on, you joked:

 >And don't tell Sony that BetaCam's got all the technical Oomph
 >of a Xerox copier they might just cross you off their Christmas
 >card list.

Actually, I assume that they'd at least use D-2 or Beta SP but
this is really a moot point (or should that be "mute" since no
one's talking?) It would not matter if they duped it onto IMAX
film. Not seeing the alien on original film means that the
dating of the image simply cannot be done without "guessing", of
which there is far too much going on, even by me.

Continuing, I wrote:

 >>With all due respect to Neil's work,
 >>it is an interpretation at best.

Neil replied:

 >But arn't most things when we have nothing "physical" other than
 >images to go on, we interpret the images contents.

Hold on, Neil. I have no bone to pick with the fine work you are
doing on the Roswell photos. The difference is that we know the
photos are genuine; we know their source. AA is a complete
mystery that is purposely, mind you, purposely being kept a
mystery by those that would benefit the most by having the
mystery solved if AA were to be found genuine. To give too much
credence to an extended interpretation regarding image
authenticity for AA is illogical considering the obvious lack of
proof as to where the imagery in question came from in the first
place. It is, in effect, putting the cart before the horse.

Slogging forward:

 >Go back to the archives at the time Roger, 95/96, it all
 >depended on who you asked and their individual background in
 >medicine, you could trot out as many (qualified in surgery) for,
 >as against the "doctors" authenticity in methods, style and
 >practices.

Well, to be blunt about it, no one will go on record in the
medical community and say that what they see is authentic. Now
why would that be, I wonder? I spent years in the OR and I know
that what I see is fake. I have yet to see a surgeon lend his
name to the authenticity of the AA footage. Oh, sure, there are
the usual arguments that at first they supported it but were
then afraid that doing so would ruin their careers. Nonsense.
California is full of doctors preaching the virtues of the
latest medical fads and catering to the absurd whims of
eccentric patients. They make tons of money and aren't afraid
for a minute of looking like "quacks". So why distance
themselves from something as potentially important as AA?

Continuing, of course, I mentioned:

 >the containment suits,

You replied:


 >Those bloody suits, I still don't see the relevance you place on
 >regs brought in some 14 years _after_ the event. Are you aware
 >that the people working directly on the first CP series of
 >reactors did so _without_ _any_ protective clothing at all, and
 >yes eventually they did get sick.

This is entirely my point, Neil! What point is the existence of
the suits in the first place? It may have been ignorance that
allowed workers to be exposed to radiation in the early reactors
but we're not talking about radiation. We're talking about
biological contamination; something that doctors certainly knew
alot about after years of experience that predated atomic energy
by decades and decades.

And let's be realistic, here. There's a difference between the
government sending ignorant workers into a dangerous area of
risk without telling them and a trained surgeon about to cut
open a dead and decaying alien corpse! These "doctors" would
know better and the suits just don't seem logical. They are NOT
air tight and they actually INCREASE the likelihood of
contamination by raising the risk of accidental nicks and cuts
by the scalpel due to poor visibility.

_That_ is my beef with the bloody suits. I used the example of
how radiation suits were "officially" supposed to be worn to
show that some kind of protocol did exist regarding
contamination and that this protocol did not develop over night.
Doctors have known how to avoid biological contamination for a
long, long time; decades before AA.

Finally, you wrote:

 >Mmmmm We've got original film, but it hasn't stopped people
 >slagging off the work of the RPIT has it??

As I said, I personally have no beef with the work you do ala
RPIT. I think it is important. In fact, you are aware that I
have privately emailed you about the idea of taking two of the
Roswell photos, produced from different angles, and sizing them
to produce a "3-D" stereoscopic view of the debris. I think
there is a lot of important info in the photos and I applaud
your work.

 >Roger you first, have a bash at the AA film, what would _you_
 >need and define as _hard_ _evidence_ the AA film is a genuine
 >historical document?.

 >What would be _your_ level of proof?.

An original frame of film from 1947 with the alien in it would
convince me that if is an important historical document.
Anything short of that would be unfounded speculation.







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                        Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000

From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:53:38 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:04:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000


 >Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:32:50 -0600
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:43:09 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Filer's Files #06 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >>George A. Filer,  Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >>February 12, 2000,  Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020
 >>Web Site at www.filersfiles.com -- Chuck Warren Webmaster.
 >>THEORY OF EVOLUTION MINDSHIFT

 >George,

 >>For too long the Theory of
 >>Evolution has been taught as fact and as an undeniable truth.
 >>Scientists and educators have taught with fervor and passion
 >>that all life originated on Earth.  Obviously there is some
 >>evidence that species change to adapt to the situation around
 >>them.  But it is a giant leap of faith to assume we all came
 >>from some primeval ooze and gradually developed into complex
 >>life forms.  I have had the luxury of seeing the complexity of
 >>just one cell.  It is doubtful that life happened by chance.
 >>The logical conclusion is that there was a Creator.  I receive
 >>many letters from scientists who claim to be experts in the
 >>field of genetics, who admit they are afraid to speak up.  They
 >>are frankly afraid of losing their jobs, if they verbalize
 >>their own findings that the Theory of Evolution is in error.

Jerry Wrote:

 >I have not the slightest doubt that you are a good guy, but it's
 >depressing to see this sort of creationist posturing anywhere,
 >and especially on this list.  Can't we just let this go and
 >return to UFOs?  Otherwise, I fear what might come next: attacks
 >on the "theory" of gravity?  the "theory" of a round earth?  the
 >"theory" that all matter is composed of atoms?

Jerry,

I think you misunderstood George's note. Creationist posturing?
Where did he write anything about creationism? He wrote that
there was a Creator. Was that Creator God, ET or something else
we don't yet understand. You assume that he was talking about
God but I didn't take it that way.

 >You are, of course, entitled to  hold whatever beliefs your
 >religious convictions lead you to, but you ought not to confuse
 >them with scientific knowledge. Scientific knowledge does not
 >delegitamize religious belief, but the two ought never to be
 >confused.  Even the Catholic Church -- and most mainline
 >Protestant denominations -- long ago made their peace with
 >evolution.

Micro-evolution yes but are you saying that macro-evolution has
been proven? I have yet to see any evidence that helps prove
macro-evolution. The missing link still remains that: missing.

I think, (maybe I'm wrong) that George is open to the ET
intervention hypothesis. If ET did have a hand in our evolution,
then Darwin's theory will never be proven. There may have been a
creator and he/she may have been ET. Or maybe there was some
inelligent higher being that also had a hand in our development.
I don't know.

 >If you have a quarrel with a century and a half of progress in
 >biology, I urge you take it up elsewhere.  For a worthwhile look
 >at how evolution worked on earth and what that experience might
 >tell us about evolution elsewhere, there's the new book Here Be
 >Dragons, by two fervently pro-ETI (and just as fervently
 >anti-UFO) scientists, David W. Koerner and Simon LeVay
 >(published by Oxford University Press). My review of same
 >appears on page 185 of the February issue of Wired, if anyone's
 >interested.

 >Jerry Clark

I hope George ways in here because I really think you
mis-understood his post. Read Lloyd Pye's "Everything You Know
is Wrong" if you want to know about the many problems with
Darwin's theory.

By the way, the Catholic church has realized that (micro)
evolution is a fact but they will never give up their
Creationist view. They conveniantly combine both.

Joe in Tampa








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               P3N Bulletin: Federal Judge Agrees with CAUS...

From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:30:41 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:52:07 -0500
Subject: P3N Bulletin: Federal Judge Agrees with CAUS...


Greetings list -

Forwarded From: ParaNormlNews@aol.com

PARANORML NEWs NETWORK (P3N): BULLETIN - February 16, 2000

FEDERAL JUDGE AGREES WITH UFO GROUP AND FINDS GOVERNMENT'S
AFFIDAVITS INADEQUATE

In a decision that is certain to put a frown on the faces of
several officials within the Department of Defense, a United
States District Court Judge in Phoenix has agreed with a UFO
activist group and ordered the Department of Defense to provide
additional affidavits, detailing the specifics of its search, to
the group by March 17th.

Nine days ago, on February 7th, in a packed courtroom in
Phoenix, Chief Judge Stephen M. McNamee heard oral arguments on
the government's Motion for Summary Judgment in the Freedom of
Information Act federal lawsuit of Citizens Against UFO Secrecy
v. Department of Defense.

At the hearing, Citizens Against UFO Secrecy (CAUS) attorney
Peter A. Gersten had argued that the Department of Defense's
(DoD) search for information on a very large and unusual
triangular aerial object, seen on a regular basis throughout the
United States, was inadequate. During the 30 minute argument,
Gersten repeatedly asked to see the specifics of the
government's search. In his decision, Judge McNamee agreed and
ordered the DoD to provide that information within 30 days.

The DoD has maintained that a search could find no information
on this enigmatic craft even though thousands of people have
reported seeing it, some observing it hovering at treetop level.
CAUS had submitted thirty-three affidavits from eyewitnesses in
support of its arguments.

In an interview with P3N, the CAUS attorney stated he was
extremely satisfied with Judge's ruling, though he didn't think
it went far enough. "Judge McNamee agreed with my arguments and
that is encouraging" stated Gersten. "But I won't be satisfied
until I am allowed to question DoD officials under oath. There
is no doubt in my mind that they are lying about not having any
information on something so obviously within their
responsibility of intelligence and security," he continued.

---

Best regards,

- Blair Cummins
ufoblair@hotmail.com










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                        Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:58:05 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:55:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000


 >Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:53:38 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:32:50 -0600
 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:43:09 -0500 (EST)
 >>>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >>>Subject: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Filer's Files #06 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >>>George A. Filer,  Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >>>February 12, 2000,  Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020
 >>>Web Site at www.filersfiles.com -- Chuck Warren Webmaster.
 >>>THEORY OF EVOLUTION MINDSHIFT

 >>>For too long the Theory of
 >>>Evolution has been taught as fact and as an undeniable truth.
 >>>Scientists and educators have taught with fervor and passion
 >>>that all life originated on Earth.  Obviously there is some
 >>>evidence that species change to adapt to the situation around
 >>>them.  But it is a giant leap of faith to assume we all came
 >>>from some primeval ooze and gradually developed into complex
 >>>life forms.  I have had the luxury of seeing the complexity of
 >>>just one cell.  It is doubtful that life happened by chance.
 >>>The logical conclusion is that there was a Creator.  I receive
 >>>many letters from scientists who claim to be experts in the
 >>>field of genetics, who admit they are afraid to speak up.  They
 >>>are frankly afraid of losing their jobs, if they verbalize
 >>>their own findings that the Theory of Evolution is in error.

 >Jerry wrote:

 >>I have not the slightest doubt that you are a good guy, but it's
 >>depressing to see this sort of creationist posturing anywhere,
 >>and especially on this list.  Can't we just let this go and
 >>return to UFOs?  Otherwise, I fear what might come next: attacks
 >>on the "theory" of gravity?  the "theory" of a round earth?  the
 >>"theory" that all matter is composed of atoms?

 >I think you misunderstood George's note. Creationist posturing?
 >Where did he write anything about creationism? He wrote that
 >there was a Creator. Was that Creator God, ET or something else
 >we don't yet understand. You assume that he was talking about
 >God but I didn't take it that way.

Tampa Joe (hmmm ... wasn't that the name of an old-time
blues singer? well, anyway....)

I didn't misread George, and I stand by what I said.

Cordially,

Jerry Clark









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                       Re: Roswell Items Sent to NASA

From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:09:15 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:56:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Roswell Items Sent to NASA


Greetings list -

From: http://www.abqjournal.com/news/5news02-16-00.htm

Roswell Items Sent to NASA
Wednesday, February 16, 2000
The Associated Press

ROSWELL -- You can picture the headlines now: UFOs coming to
Space Center.

As, indeed, they are.

The UFO Festival, an event held each summer in this town whose
name is synonymous with space aliens, is sending models and art
to NASA's Johnson Space Center in Houston for a two-month
exhibit, said Stacy Wolkwitz, UFO committee chairwoman.

Space Center representatives came to Roswell about a month ago,
along with marketing experts, to look over potential items to be
included in an exhibit on the impact of UFOs on popular culture,
Wolkwitz said.

"They said it's the first time that NASA has ever given
permission for them to display anything on UFOs or aliens," she
said. "But they feel that it has so saturated pop culture and
that it's so much a part of the movie and TV industry that they
felt it was time they addressed it and showed how we view aliens
as a culture."

The exhibit opens at the Space Center in March and ends in
mid-May.

Among the items being sent to Houston on Tuesday were a model
UFO, a car that looks like a spaceship, some UFO works from
artists and "wearable art."

---

Best regards,

- Blair Cummins
ufoblair@hotmail.com









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   Feb > Feb 17

              Titanic Collision Onset Lights Up Supernova Ring

From: NASA <NASANews@hq.nasa.gov>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:10:20 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 06:51:06 -0500
Subject: Titanic Collision Onset Lights Up Supernova Ring


Donald Savage
Headquarters, Washington, DCFeb. 16, 2000
(Phone:  202/358-1547)

Nancy Neal
Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, MD
(Phone:  301/286-0034)

Ray Villard
Space Telescope Science Institute, Baltimore, MD
(Phone:  410/338-4514)

RELEASE:  00-27

ONSET OF TITANIC COLLISION LIGHTS UP SUPERNOVA RING

NASA's Hubble Space Telescope is giving astronomers a ringside
seat to a never-before-seen, violent, celestial "main
attraction" unfolding in a galaxy 169,000 light years away.  The
knockout event is the collision of the fastest moving debris
from an immense stellar explosion seen in February 1987 with the
gas ring that circles that site.

This collision is beginning to cause the gases in the ring to
glow as they are heated to millions of degrees and compressed by
the sledgehammer blow of a 40 million mile-per- hour blast wave.
In new pictures taken on February 2, Hubble's sharp view
revealed four bright new knots of heated gas at places that had
been fading slowly for a decade.  Under an observing program
called the supernova intensive survey, a team of astronomers has
been monitoring SN1987A with Hubble since it was launched in
1990.

One of the first clues to the celestial fireworks came in 1997
when Hubble saw a single knot in the ring shine like a bright
diamond as it was first impacted by the shockwave.  "That was
the opening jab.  Now the dancing around is over and the
slugfest will begin," says Robert Kirshner of
Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics in Cambridge, MA.

"The real fireworks show is finally starting and over the next
ten years things will get spectacular. It helps that Hubble is
giving us an unparalleled view," adds Peter Garnavich of the
University of Notre Dame.

Previous Hubble spectroscopic observations, and radio and x-ray
telescopic observations of the expanding supernova shockwave all
led astronomers to anticipate that the titanic collision was
only a matter of time.  As far back as 1992 astronomers
predicted that the ring would become ablaze with light as it
absorbs the full force of the crash.

Upon seeing the new Hubble pictures, Kirshner remarked, "It's
about time.  We saw that first hotspot two years ago, but I was
getting nervous that we might have been mistaken about its
location.  It's great to see the shock wave start to light up
the ring."

The supernova, called SN 1987A, has long puzzled astronomers.
They believe the ring is made up of old gas that was ejected by
the star 20,000 years ago, long before it exploded. The ring's
presence was given away when it was heated by the intense burst
of light from the 1987 explosion. The ring has been slowly
fading ever since then as the gas cools.

The initial supernova flash only lit up a small part of the gas
that surrounds the supernova. Much of it is still invisible. But
the light from the crash should illuminate this invisible matter
for the first time, and help unravel the mystery of a pair of
outer rings seen around the supernova as well.

"Now as the central ring begins to light up again, we can see
how this old material is arranged around the star. We can map
its distribution," Kirshner says. "This event gives us another
chance to see the true structure of the gas around the supernova
and to puzzle out how it got there."

Kirshner and colleagues plans to use Hubble to do follow-up
observations later this year to track the ongoing drama of one
of the biggest celestial collisions ever witnessed by
astronomers.

The Supernova Intensive Survey team includes Dick McCray,
University of Colorado, Boulder; Nino Panagia, Space
Telescope Science Institute, Baltimore, MD; Nick Suntzeff,
Cerro Tololo Inter-American Observatory, Chile; and George
Sonneborn and Jason Pun, NASA Goddard Space Flight Center,
Greenbelt, MD.

   - end -

  Images to accompany this release are available at:
  http://www.stsci.edu



* * *

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               Re: Titanic Collision Onset Lights Up Supernova

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 06:32:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:46:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Titanic Collision Onset Lights Up Supernova


 >Titanic Collision Onset Lights Up Supernova Ring

 >From: NASA
 >Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:10:20 -0500 (EST)
 >Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 06:51:06 -0500
 >Subject: Titanic Collision Onset Lights Up Supernova Ring

Previously, the NASA release stated:

NASA's Hubble Space Telescope is giving astronomers a ringside
seat to a never-before-seen, violent, celestial "main
attraction" unfolding in a galaxy 169,000 light years away.  The
knockout event is the collision of the fastest moving debris
from an immense stellar explosion seen in February 1987 with the
gas ring that circles that site.

<snip>

 >The supernova, called SN 1987A, has long puzzled
 >astronomers.

 >They believe the ring is made up of old gas that
 >was ejected by
 >the star 20,000 years ago, long before it
 >exploded.

Hello, list.....

Perhaps I'm being persnickety, as my mother would say, but the
two statements above don't seem to "jibe". If the galaxy in
question is 169,000 light years away that would mean that the
event Hubble is witnessing took place 169,000 years ago. So what
gives with the 20,000 year estimate? It strikes me that you
can't view two different objects at the same time if one is
169,000 light years away and the other is 20,000 (based on our
time scale). How can they be at the same place at the same time
if their "time/distance" measurements are different?

Maybe someone much smarter than me (which would be just about
anyone) can clarify this discrepancy.

Thanks,

signed,

Confused in Houston

(Roger Evans)







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                       TMP News: News Briefing 2.17.00

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:05:38 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:10:45 -0500
Subject: TMP News: News Briefing 2.17.00


TMP NEWS
The E-News Service of The Millennium Project

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

February 17, 2000

_____________________________



NEWS BRIEFING
2.17.00


(Apologies for the delay in this next update, as your editor has
been contending with a very nasty cold the past few days; now
back to the news - PA)...


QUANTA - Science and Technology


FULL COVERAGE OF NEAR RENDEVOUS WITH EROS ASTEROID
Probe photographs "heart-shaped crater" on asteroid named after
the god of love...
http://fullcoverage.yahoo.com/fc/Science/NEAR/

STORMS MAY DRIVE JUPITER'S WEATHER
Scientists believe they may have discovered what drives the
weather on the solar system's largest planet...
http://www.usatoday.com/weather/solar/wjupstorm.htm

BOEING, SPACEDEV TO END NASA 'MOONOPOLY'
First commecial lunar missions planned for 2001...
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/spacedev.html

102 NEW COMETS FOUND
Most may have come from the breakup of one single large comet
more than two thousand years ago...
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/newcomets.html


_____________________________


TMP News is the electronic news service of The Millennium
Project, providing daily news briefings of the latest relevant
news stories and reports, as well as information and updates on
TMP-related news and events. TMP News is edited by Paul Anderson
and published by TMP, and is available free by subscription; to
be added to or removed from the mailing list, send your request,
including "subscribe TMP News" or "unsubscribe TMP News" and
e-mail address to:

psa@direct.ca

For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all
correspondence to:

THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC   V6J 1J4   Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

_____________________________


� The Millennium Project, 2000








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                  Radio Activity That Doesn't Leave Traces?

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:10:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:21:55 -0500
Subject: Radio Activity That Doesn't Leave Traces?


Hello List members,

I'd like to get some feedback here on something I recently read
in 'Situation Red' by Leonard Stringfield.

On pg. 228 of the paperback edition he speaks of a sighting that
occurred in Beallsville Ohio on March, 19, 1968 that involved a
"beam of light" that set a boy's jacket on fire.

Civil Defense Director Ward Strikling combed the area with a
Geiger Counter and found no radiation.

He states however that, "there are types of radioactivity that
leave no detectable traces."

What types of radiation, "leave no detectable traces"? Is he
implying undetectable only to the geiger counter, or
_completely_ undetecable?

Is anyone here familiar with this case?

Thanks in advance,

Todd Lemire

--
"We would rather, I suspect, fear the unknown than convert it to
the known.  What we may fear more deeply than the unknown itself
is the prospect of actually knowing it.  Happily for all of us
there are people like yourself who refuse to be bound by such
mass refusal of reality, who are not afraid to seek and learn."

Coral Lorenzen : Flying Saucers - The Startling Evidence of The
Invasion from Outer Space







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                   Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:53:56 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:35:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors


 >Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:36:09 -0500
 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:06:29 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Larry Robinson S/AP/EIS Kinesiology <lrobins>indiana.edu>
 >>Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates>sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 >Hello Larry,

 >It seems I've answered your e-mails in reverse order in which
 >they were received.

 >The principal of the school has cancelled our presentation
 >unfortunately.

 >I'm still going to develop an outline and associated material
 >for a school level presentation and possibly contact other
 >school administrators and hopefully develop an interest among
 >them in the Michigan area.


Dear Todd, EBK, Listers and other entities lurking,

As per a previous conversation, I am sorry the school canceled
your scheduled event. Allow me, if you will, to provide some
example of how we were able to accomplish this feat, as there
are those on list, who might wish to do the same as we did in
our local area.

We are of the opinion that while research in this field is
extremely needed, it is even more important to stoke the flames
in our youth. One or more of these may become someone who
breaks through or breaks out and makes an important discovery.

As a result, we believe that it is more important to create an
interest in the subject now, in our future leaders, than to
stoke the flames of controversy and participate in other
research gatherings, arguing amongst ourselves. This is our
choice.

And who the hell are we? We are a small group, some of whom have
had or shared experiences, some of whom are skeptical but
maintain an open mind. We found one another when I was
researching for my own book, looking for the young guys with
whom I recalled were witness to what happened to me as a young
person.

Here is what we did, having now carried seminars at more than
nine parochial and two public schools. What does that say about
the two systems, eh?

We went to the school administrations as a group of three or
four engineers and scientists. We properly represented ourselves
as scientists, not UFO researchers. We brought with us, an offer
to engage the student body in a seminar, and presented a
questionnaire.

The questionnaire asked a short number of questions. Nestled in
among these were cosmology, astronomy, general physics, some
questions relating to the UFO phenom, abduction, some questions
in philosophy. We agreed to present a seminar, a working
seminar, on the five subjects in which the student body as a
whole, expressed the most interest.

To a man (except for the public schools, these were all boys
high schools and all college prep) they expressed the most
interest in the subject of UFOs and the abduction phenom. This,
along with astronomy, creation and cosmology. We separate the
latter two, remember, these were parochial schools. But we
expected that. We only look stupid.

Thus far, we have been unable, once on the subject, to get off
the subject. And we've been invited back. Our little band of
merry men consist of (apologies to some) three Ph.D.'s in
physics, one in business (moi), one in E.E. and the rest are
ignorant little BA's and BEE's. The group consists of 50%
believers and 50% non believers; as we would never stack the
odds in our favor.

We will tell you this, the unbelievers and skeptics take the
biggest and best shots from these little kiddies. I've seen
several faces turn cherry red from the rebukes they've received.

We never represent ourselves as UFO believers or skeptics, and
we never tell of our own experiences, those of us who have had
them. But you can see the knowledge and the pain in some of
those eyes as they stare back at you. They come to you
afterwards, and as to talk some more, or ask where to go for
more information.

We always send them to one of two places.

In spite of the fact that we often laugh at researchers, we
understand the need. And more important, those of you who
communicate with the public through your books, articles and
appearances on various public venues, take heed. These young
people can see through you more than Gesundt thinks he can. You
(some of you) are wasting your time. And some of you are wasting
your minds. You should (some of you) be doing much more positive
work, after all, you are capable of productive work. We hope.

There is more to this than reaches your minds. So we like very
much to occasionally point to the points on some heads. Believe
it, young people today are suffering much more than in my time
(40's) because they are exposed to so much more than we were.

Growing up today is tough. Very complex. Our young people suck
up this UFO stuff like it was Gripple an' smack. To provide them
with drivel is, in our view, a most especially heinous crime.
You deserve more than a laugh and a rebuke, you deserve to be
spanked, some of you.

J. Jaime Gesundt







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               Re: Titanic Collision Onset Lights Up Supernova

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:07:39 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:13:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Titanic Collision Onset Lights Up Supernova


 >Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 06:32:36 -0600
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Titanic Collision Onset Lights Up Supernova Ring
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >>Titanic Collision Onset Lights Up Supernova Ring

 >>From: NASA
 >>Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:10:20 -0500 (EST)
 >>Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 06:51:06 -0500
 >>Subject: Titanic Collision Onset Lights Up Supernova Ring

 >Previously, the NASA release stated:

 >NASA's Hubble Space Telescope is giving astronomers a ringside
 >seat to a never-before-seen, violent, celestial "main
 >attraction" unfolding in a galaxy 169,000 light years away.  The
 >knockout event is the collision of the fastest moving debris
 >from an immense stellar explosion seen in February 1987 with the
 >gas ring that circles that site.

 ><snip>

 >>The supernova, called SN 1987A, has long puzzled
 >>astronomers.

 >>They believe the ring is made up of old gas that was
 >>ejected by the star 20,000 years ago, long before it
 >>exploded.

 >Perhaps I'm being persnickety, as my mother would say, but the
 >two statements above don't seem to "jibe". If the galaxy in
 >question is 169,000 light years away that would mean that the
 >event Hubble is witnessing took place 169,000 years ago. So what
 >gives with the 20,000 year estimate? It strikes me that you
 >can't view two different objects at the same time if one is
 >169,000 light years away and the other is 20,000 (based on our
 >time scale). How can they be at the same place at the same time
 >if their "time/distance" measurements are different?

 >Maybe someone much smarter than me (which would be just about
 >anyone) can clarify this discrepancy.


Great point. And bad press-release writing. The galaxy they
mention, actually the Large Magellanic Cloud, really is about
170,000 light-years away. So any event we "see" happening there
now really happened about 170K years ago. Given that, the
"20,000 years ago" reference should have properly read something
roughly like this:

    They believe the ring is made up of old gas that we
    would have seen ejected by the star 20,000 years ago,
    long before we saw it explode in 1987.

All of which is to say the gas ring was really ejected 190K
years ago, and then the supernova popped off 20K years later, or
170K years ago.

Isn't dealing with the finite speed of light fun?  The poor
press-release writer probably didn't understand it either.

-Brian C.






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                             Re: Phoneix Lights

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:16:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:14:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights


 >Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 03:20:07 +0000
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:24:50 +0100
 >>>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>>Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Well Roy, now I am really confused. What do you mean "Gamma was
 >>>found to be included in the makeup of these lights"? Exactly
 >>>what do you mean? Was Gamma radiation found to be included in
 >>>the spectrum of some of the Phoenix lights? If so, how was it
 >>>measured?

 >Hi Josh & All,

 >Yes I should have been a bit clearer. This was revealed on a
 >tape I watched not so long ago from Village Labs Arizona Jim
 >Diletoso.

 >It was found that Gamma had something to do with the lights
 >under analysis, this ruled out army flares and such.

 >I will dig the video out and post the title. But I think if this
 >is the case then it must widen the case somewhat?

Gamma is defined as the degree of contrast of a developed
photographic image or of a television image.

Regards,

Terry








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                  Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?

From: James Bouck <JGBOUCK@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:54:37 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:26:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?


After looking at the many responses to this inquiry, I think a
great many ideas were suggested that are excellent reading.

Unfortunately, and I am going to have to go against the
suggestions of many but I personally feel that abduction books
should be discouraged.

I'm sure many will disagree with me, but it is hard enough to
talk to a possible abductee and accept everything mentioned
after learning that the person is very well read in abductions.

UFOs can be investigated for verification of what might be out
there, but abductions take more time and effort. By giving them
knowledge that might influence them in the future can hinder the
search for truth and accuracy.

I'm not all that experienced dealing with abductees but I have
worked with a few and they have read most of the books out
there.

Jim Bouck

New York State MUFON

http://members.aol.com/jgbouck/index.html








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                Re: Radio Activity That Doesn't Leave Traces?

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@temporaldoorway.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:10:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 07:58:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Radio Activity That Doesn't Leave Traces?


 >Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:10:13 -0500
 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >Subject: Radio Activity That Doesn't Leave Traces?
 >To:  UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >What types of radiation, "leave no detectable traces"? Is he
 >implying undetectable only to the geiger counter, or
 >_completely_ undetecable?

Hi, Todd!

X-rays and a variety of other radiation below the gamma range
can have been present and leave no trace.

For a trace to be left behind, either material continuing to
disintegrate must be present, or existing material at the site
must be disintegrating. This disintegration is nuclear, and
requires extremely high energies to initiate.

Paul Hill in his "Unconventional Flying Objects" covered some
cases which were suggestive of x-rays.

Radiation like gamma rays are just the far end of the
electromagnetic spectrum. So we can also add in UV, IR and other
non-nuclear radiations. Since particles also generate
counter-detectable radiation (alpha and beta particles, for
instance), we could also consider electrons and protons, which
can, in secondary reactions, create x-rays, as possible sources
of radiation. It is unlikely that these would leave long-lived
radioactive traces.

Despite the long-held belief that UFOs would generate
radioactivity (I suspect because early speculations included
nuclear propulsion, but perhaps Jerry Clark can be of help with
that), very few trace cases include radioactivity, even when
equipment to measure it has been made available.

I also suspect that a number of the medical evidence cases which
are commonly held to be the result of UV and other forms of
radiation, are actually caused by chemical vapors of one sort or
another - this is substantiated by the smells reported in close
cases, and by the presence of skin irritation in locations out
of the line of sight of the object (for instance under clothing)
with the same irritation absent in areas accessible to the
luminosity of the object.

I hope this shed some light on the issue.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, music and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/index.htm
------







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                       Police See UFO Over Mexico City

From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:31:31 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:08:00 -0500
Subject: Police See UFO Over Mexico City


UFO over Mexico City

From: Newspaper 'El Universal', 2-15-2000

For one hour, 16 police officers could not believe what they
where seeing. In front of them at only three meters from the
ground a UFO, 10 meter in diameter with two strong lights of
different colors; red, green and blue, hovered for 30
seconds.

The first sighting started at 2:13 (08.20 GMT) the morning of
Valentine's Day. Officers Juan Carlos Duenas and Israel
Gutierrez, Police Unit 16147, spotted the UFO next to the
Vocational 8 Building. "Our watches stop at exactly 2:20 AM,
when the UFO disappeared in the night" said.

Twenty-five minutes later, at 2:38 AM, Police Unit 01127,
reported, by radio, seeing the UFO flying over Colonia
Palmititla, next to the Chiquihuite Hill.

Police Units 16079 and 1616 reported seeing the UFO in
Azcapotzalco and the Units: 01899, 01875, 13843 reported seeing
it in Gustavo A. Madero. The last report was received at 3:13 AM
(09.13 GMT).

"El Universal" photographer, Saul Navarro, took two pictures of
the UFO and his report coincides those of the police. "I watched
the UFO hover, close to the ground. It could not have been an
airplane. Suddenly, it started moving and stopped over a house.
It stayed there for 10 or 15 seconds, and then disappeared behind
some trees" said. Mr. Navarro agrees with the police on the
colors of the lights.

NOTE: As always, I haven't seen this report in English.

Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo

Miami UFO Center
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/ufomiami/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/index.html








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               Re: Titanic Collision Onset Lights Up Supernova

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:25:24 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:10:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Titanic Collision Onset Lights Up Supernova


 >Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 06:32:36 -0600
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Titanic Collision Onset Lights Up Supernova Ring
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Hello, list.....

 >Perhaps I'm being persnickety, as my mother would say, but the
 >two statements above don't seem to "jibe". If the galaxy in
 >question is 169,000 light years away that would mean that the
 >event Hubble is witnessing took place 169,000 years ago. So what
 >gives with the 20,000 year estimate? It strikes me that you
 >can't view two different objects at the same time if one is
 >169,000 light years away and the other is 20,000 (based on our
 >time scale). How can they be at the same place at the same time
 >if their "time/distance" measurements are different?

Hi Roger.

You are correct when you say that since this companion galaxy to
our own is about 169,000 light years away, the supernova we
recently detected in this galaxy must have actually happened
about 169,000 years ago, not 20,000 years.

The reason the two numbers do not jibe is simply because the
ring structure (actually, telescopes show three rings, one small
ring in between two fainter larger ones which seem to overlap as
seen from our perspective on Earth) was created well before the
star exploded or became a supernova.

 From the accepted model of stellar evolution, large quantities
of gases are expelled by certain stars when they reach the Red
Supergiant stage and afterwards faster moving gases are expelled
when these stars reach the later Blue Supergiant stage. When
the faster moving gases catch up to the slower moving gases,
compression occurs to form the observed rings. Much later when
the star exploded (Supernova 1987A), the much faster moving
shock wave from this blast is just now reaching these gaseous
rings and is causing them to glow.

By the way, I was being considered to replace the University of
Toronto resident astronomer Ian Shelton in Chile but he decided
to stay for an extra year. Ian later made this famous supernova
discovery and the cover of TIME. Just as well, since I probably
would have been too busy reading about the latest UFO sightings
(too early for UFO UpDates) to notice a new star in the sky.

This is the accepted interpretation of what we are now seeing
happening with the rings around Supernova 1987A as was explained
by Dr. John N. Bahcall, a top space scientist, when he gave a
special public lecture and slide show at the University of
Toronto in September last year. Apollo 8 astronaut Jim Lovell
also gave a talk afterwards, thanked the University of Toronto
for saving him and the crew of Apollo 13 and also made fun of
astronauts who reported seeing UFOs in space. Although I was
third in line, they stopped taking questions from the floor
before I could ask mine. I am still upset that I did not get to
ask Jim about his own UFO sighting in the vicinity of the Moon
in 1968 when he made his famous reference "Mission Control,
please be informed, there is a Santa Claus" (mission code for
UFO?).

Nick Balaskas








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                        Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:25:59 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:15:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000


 >Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:58:05 -0600
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:53:38 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:32:50 -0600
 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:43:09 -0500 (EST)
 >>>>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >>>>Subject: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Filer's Files #06 -- 2000, MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >>>>George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >>>>February 12, 2000, Majorstar@aol.com (609) 654-0020
 >>>>Web Site at www.filersfiles.com -- Chuck Warren Webmaster.
 >>>>THEORY OF EVOLUTION MINDSHIFT

 >>>>For too long the Theory of
 >>>>Evolution has been taught as fact and as an undeniable truth.
 >>>>Scientists and educators have taught with fervor and passion
 >>>>that all life originated on Earth. Obviously there is some
 >>>>evidence that species change to adapt to the situation around
 >>>>them. But it is a giant leap of faith to assume we all came
 >>>>from some primeval ooze and gradually developed into complex
 >>>>life forms. I have had the luxury of seeing the complexity of
 >>>>just one cell. It is doubtful that life happened by chance.
 >>>>The logical conclusion is that there was a Creator. I receive
 >>>>many letters from scientists who claim to be experts in the
 >>>>field of genetics, who admit they are afraid to speak up. They
 >>>>are frankly afraid of losing their jobs, if they verbalize
 >>>>their own findings that the Theory of Evolution is in error.

 >>>I have not the slightest doubt that you are a good guy, but it's
 >>>depressing to see this sort of creationist posturing anywhere,
 >>>and especially on this list. Can't we just let this go and
 >>>return to UFOs? Otherwise, I fear what might come next: attacks
 >>>on the "theory" of gravity? the "theory" of a round earth? the
 >>>"theory" that all matter is composed of atoms?

 >>I think you misunderstood George's note. Creationist posturing?
 >>Where did he write anything about creationism? He wrote that
 >>there was a Creator. Was that Creator God, ET or something else
 >>we don't yet understand. You assume that he was talking about
 >>God but I didn't take it that way.

 >Tampa Joe (hmmm ... wasn't that the name of an old-time
 >blues singer? well, anyway....)

 >I didn't misread George, and I stand by what I said.

Hi Jerry.

I was very surprised by your overreaction to George's comments
on the origins of E.T. life and God in his latest UFO
newsletter.

Jerry, do you feel you have some special insights or knowledge
about UFOs we do not have to decide for us what is relevant or
not regarding UFOs?

It is a fact that science has made its greatest advances when it
is shown to be wrong. What better way is there to help advance
science and ufology than by introducing new ideas or insights,
as George often does in his UFO newsletters? Who knows, this
approach will not only broaden our understanding of UFOs but
possibly even bring us to the truth about them.

As for whether you believe in God/creation or evolution/chance,
it must have a scientific basis. Unfortunately, science is not
always what scientists do. My own personal leanings are that we
are a special creation in this universe. This view has been
further strengthened recently ironically by bitter attacks by
Richard Dawkins of Cambridge University and Stephen Jay Gould of
Harvard University on each other - as detailed in Andrew Brown's
"The Darwin Wars". If anyone really wants to know about the
scientific basis for creation and the impossibility of
evolution, then just read this book written about these two top
atheistic evolutionist scientists.

I stand by what I said too.

Nick Balaskas








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                             Re: Phoneix Lights

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:31:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:19:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights


 >Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 03:20:07 +0000
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:24:50 +0100
 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Well Roy, now I am really confused. What do you mean "Gamma was
 >>found to be included in the makeup of these lights"? Exactly
 >>what do you mean? Was Gamma radiation found to be included in
 >>the spectrum of some of the Phoenix lights? If so, how was it
 >>measured?


I think he means "gamma", as applied to film or nowadays to
video.

"Gamma" is the slope of the transfer curve that relates
brightness of a portion of a scene to the brightness of the
image of that scene.

I could get a lot more detailed..... but won't.

Modern painting programs or photo retouching programs allow you
to adjust brightness, contrast and 'gamma'.

Has nothing to do with nuclear gamma radiation!








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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 7

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:23:11 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:21:56 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 7


      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 5, Number 7
February 17, 2000
Editor: Joseph Trainor

<Masinaigan@aol.com>

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/

NETHERLANDS HIT BY
FALLING ICE BLOCKS

      Last week the Netherlands became the third
Erupean country, after Spain and Italy, to be struck
by giant chunks of ice that had fallen from the sky.
      "Two researchers from the University of Groningen,"
a city 128 kilometers (80 miles) northeast of
the national capital, Amsterdam, "have a lot of work
to do after seven reports of falling ice in the
Netherlands."
      "After a citizen of Groningen found a large ice cube
in his back-garden, there have been seven reports of
similar objects."
      On Tuesday, February 8, 2000, there were reports
of ice falls in Hoogeveen, a city in Drenthe province
67 kilometers (42 miles) south of Groningen, and in
Veendam, a city 59 kilometers (37 miles) southeast
of Groningen.
      On Wednesday, February 9, 2000, there was
another report of an ice fall in Groningen.
      On Thursday, February 10, 2000, there were
reports of ice blocks falling from the sky in Almere,
Zoutkamp and Borculo, a city 100 kilometers
(60 miles) east of Amsterdam.
     "The first ice (from Groningen) has been
investigated by the university.  Conclusion--drinking
water from an unknown source.  (A hoax inspired
by the recent reports from Spain and Italy--J.T.)"
      "The other cases are still under investigation."
      "The researchers include Theo Jurriens, an
astronomer, and Dr. Marsmann.  They take every
report seriously and have contacted a college in
Spain."  (See the Groningen Telegraf for February 11,
2000.  Many thanks to Jeroen Kumeling of UFO
Werkgruppe Nederland for forwarding the newspaper
article.)
(Editor's Note:  The Netherlands is the homeland of
the ancestors of that indefatigable chronicler of
weird ice falls, Charles Fort.)

MYSTERIOUS BALL OF LIGHT
SEEN IN FAIRHAVEN, MASS.

      On Monday, January 17, 2000, at 12:25 a.m.,
R.B. happened to look out his window and saw
something strange in the sky over Fairhaven,
Massachusetts (population 15,759).
      "A ball of light appeared out of nowhere over
the Acushnet River north of (Interstate) Highway
I-195.  The ball looked confused.  It moved
erratically, then shot away to the north and vanished
into a closing mist."
      "It seemed like it knew I was watching it."
      "If there's anybody out there from the
(Massachusetts) Southcoast who saw it, please
report it to as many (Web) sites as you can."
      Fairhaven is located on the east bank of the
Acushnet River, approximately 4 miles (6 kilometers)
from New Bedford and about 40 miles (64 kilometers)
south of Boston.  (Email Form Report)

UNUSUAL LIGHT SPHERES
SEEN IN OHIO AND ALABAMA

      On Tuesday, February 8, 2000, at 3:35 p.m.,
P.B. was outdoors near his home in Wooster, Ohio
(population 22,191), a city on Ohio Route 30
approximately 60 miles (100 kilometers) south of
Cleveland, when he saw an unusual "ball of light"
in the sky.
      "The UFO appeared in the west and darted away
to the northwest," P.B. reported.  "It was a bright
white/blue light, much brighter than the sun.  That
day, it was a mostly bright blinding light--the brightest
light I have ever seen in my life.  It was too far away for
me to determine any shape.  And it moved very fast."
(Email Form Report)
      At 2 p.m., on a day in December 1999, Dorothy A.
was at her 50-acre farm near Tuscaloosa, Alabama
(population 77,800) when she saw a similar bright
light in the afternoon sky.
      "The UFO appeared from the west and headed
south.  It was a very bright light and red/yellow.
Much brighter than the sun.  It was very, very fast."
(Email Form Report)

UFO AND BLACK HELICOPTER
SIGHTED IN DENVER

      On Friday, February 11, 2000, at 6:40 p.m., Greg L.
was at his home in the southwestern section of
Denver, Colorado (population 488,000) when he
heard a strange noise outside the house.
      "In my house, I heard the approaching sound of
deep, powerful engines," Greg reported.  "Which I
associated with a military helicopter--it was rattling
my windows.  I went outside and saw three lights."
      "The fuselage of the helicopter was clearly
visible as a black silhouette against the twilight., with
a light at each end.  There were just enough
variations in the flight path to confirm that the
helicopter was following a second independent
object--the third light."
      "About the third light, there is nothing more
to say.  It was just a light.  Nothing else.  No
fuselage, no wings, no sound (of engines), nothing."
      Greg added that the UFO "headed west and
slightly south on a steady course with only a few
minor variations."  (Email Form Report)

UFO SPOTTED BY WOMAN
IN WEST MERCIA, UK

      "A woman struggling to sleep as she battled a
cold claims she saw a UFO in Worcester," a city
in West Mercia about 30 miles (50 kilometers)
west of Birmingham.
      "Georgina Wells said she saw a glowing object
which hovered in the sky for more than an hour at
2 a.m. last Thursday," February 3, 2000.  The
20-year-old said she saw the 'extremely bright'
egg shape from her third floor bedroom window at
the back of Blansford Road home in St. John's,"
a section of Worcester.
      "But she said she was amazed to see the
glowing yellow object, which she claims had a
helicopter next to it the whole time, begin to
descend."
      "'It got lower and lower, then it stopped
glowing,' she said.  'I'm convinced it landed, but I
don't know where.  But, minutes later, it came
back into view and was really light again and
shot off into the sky.  I have never seen anything
go that fast before.'"
      "Miss Wells, who was awake because of a
cold, added that she had not taken any medicine
which could cause her to hallucinate, nor was it
a dream."
      "'I was awake because I could not stop coughing,'
she said.  'I stood up and watched it.  It was not a
police helicopter with its spotlight as there was no
light-beam.  I nearly woke my mum and dad up but
I thought it wasn't fair.  I don't think they would have
been very impressed.''"
      "But dad Jim, 63, said he was disappointed his
daughter did not wake him as he might have been
able to identify the object.  He said he would not
dismiss the possibility it was a UFO."
      "'It could have been a number of things, including
a UFO,' he said, "i do not know of any aviation vehicle
which can shoot off and vanish in a matter of seconds..'"
      "West Mercia police said they had no reports of
anyone seeing anything unusual and added that the
police helicopter was not flying that night."
      "A spokesman for the (UK) Civil Aviation Authority
said he was unable to confirm what was flying at that
time, as it was not a controlled area."
      "A spokesman for the (UK) Ministry of Defence
confirmed no military aircraft were in the area."
(See the Worcester Evening News for February 7,
2000.  Many thanks to Gerry Lovell of Far Shores
for forwarding this newspaper article.)

UFO "LIGHT STAB" CASE
REPORTED IN YORKSHIRE

      "An exchange student is convinced she spotted
a UFO in the skies above Britain."
      "Belgian Estzer Bauduin, 23, claims she saw an
alien spacecraft when she looked out of her windows
in Hull, East Yorks. in the early morning hours of a
day in early January," 2000.
      "Eszter, a languages student at Hull University,
said, 'At about 2:15 a.m., I saw the strangest thing,
like a flying saucer, going back and forth in the sky
overhead.'"
      "'It had a large red light and a blue light, and it
was shining a bright ray of light straight down.  It was
making waves of noise, or a weird sound.'"
(Editor's Comment: Looks like another "light stab"
case like the ones in Ohio and Chile.)
      "'When the light came through my window, I was
terrified.  It stayed out there for about ten minutes,
disappeared, then came back again.'"
      "Eszter wanted to see if the strange craft would
come back again, but she was out of luck."
      "'I kept hearing noises, but they were just normal
airplanes,' she said."  (See the Cornish Guardian
for January 8, 2000.  Many thanks to Gerry Lovell
of Far Shores for forwarding this newspaper article.)

MIRACULOUS IMAGES APPEAR
IN A TOWN IN ARGENTINA

      While researchers continue to hunt for the locale
of an alleged saucer crash in northern Argentina,
another paranormal event has occurred in the town
of Laprida, located about 352 kilometers (220 miles)
southwest of Buenos Aires, the national capital.
      Last week residents of Laprida reported having
"seen an image of the Virgin Mary on a tree at the
intersection of Calle Almirante Brown and Calle
Independencia."
      "While some agree that the image represents
the Virgin of the Miraculous Medallion, others believe
that it represents the Sacred Heart of Jesus.
Religious articles were immediately placed on the tree,
(including) flowers, rosaries and votive cards."
      The incision in the tree's trunk was made six
months ago by workmen from EDES, the local
electrical utility in Laprida.
      "Over the course of recent days, the street
corner has been filled with faithful who have visited
the site out of devotion or mere curiosity.  The fact
is that the sheer number of visitors has caused
considerable traffic headaches."
      "Last Thursday evening," February 10, 2000,
"the image of a cross was discovered on a street
lamp located two meters (6.6 feet) away from the
tree."  EDES "was unable to venture a guess as
to its origin."
      Shortly thereafter, another miraculous image
appeared at the corner, "the same tree reflects
another image of the Virgin as a child."
(Editor's Comment: Now this is news.  In two
thousand years of Roman Catholic history, there
has never before been an apparition of the former
Miriam bat-Joachim as a little girl.)
      "Beyond the existence of these things, it is
refreshing and touching to see the elderly, the
young and children approach the tree, pray before
it or even kiss it.  The devout appear to be the
most interested.  They worship at the site and try
to convince those who doubt the existence of the
divinity."
      "'I'm so excited,' said Queca, a devotee of the
Virgin Mary who remained at the tree for 24 hours
when the image was first discovered., accompanied
by a group of young people.  'One of my nieces made
the discovery,  She had seen it for about a month but
didn't say anything for fear of being called a lunatic.'"
      "The (Roman Catholic) Church does not avow the
apparition, however.  Upon returning from holiday,
parish priest Father Carlos Garciarena reflected the
Church's policy in such things during a sermon.
After contacting Monsignor Emilio DiCarcano, he was
told that the Church does not attest to the truthfulness
of this apparition and further assumes no liability over
any events that may take place at the site."  (See
the Argentinian newspaper La Nueva for February 2,
2000.  Muchas gracias a Gloria Coluchi para esa
historia.)

SCORE ONE FOR JACINTA

      Two months ago, during the run-up to Y2K and
the New Millenium, your UFO Roundup editor had
a strange dream the night of December 16th.  At
one point, I dreamed I was an Anishinabe boy who
was visiting the city of Cahokia on the east bank
of the Mississippi River at the height of its splendor
one or two thousand years ago.  (For more details,
see UFO Roundup, Volume 4, Number 35, "Millenial
Dreams.")  One dream-incident is of particular
interest.
      "I feel a sudden compulsion to look to my left.
I do, and a woman stands there.  A Native American
woman a few years older than Awenhai, wearing a
green dress and a green fringed shawl.  Right in front
of her, running towards me, are the two Fatima seers,
Francisco and Jacinta Marto, looking as out-of-place
in pre-Columbian Illinois as a pair of giraffes."
      "Jacinta does the talking--in Portuguese!  Very
lively little girl in a black kerchief, peasant blouse and
black skirt.  'Masinaigan, there will be an explosion
in the big city.'"
      "I gesture across the (Mississippi) river.  'Sao Luis?'"
      "'Nao, nao.'  Fuming, she stamps her foot impatiently.
'Nova York!  Nova York!'"
      Well, imagine my surprise on Saturday, February 12,
2000, when I stop at the Little Store on Superior Street
here in Duluth and pick up a copy of the Minneapolis
Star-Tribune.  Here's the story I found on page 5A.

      SMALL BOMB EXPLODES NEAR
      STOCK EXCHANGE; ONE HURT

      "A small bomb exploded a few blocks from the
New York Stock Exchange before daybreak,
shattering windows and slightly injuring one person.
'At this point, it is not viewed as a terrorist act,'
Mayor Rudolph Giuliani said.  The metal container,
containing black powder and cardboard, was similar
to a pipe bomb, police said.  Four postal workers
had walked past the device, realized it could be
dangerous, and ran away shortly before it exploded,
police said.  One of the four was treated for ringing
in the ears."

      Prophecy fulfilled?
      Nice piece of prediction, Senhorita Marto.  As
good as Nostradamus.  Not bad at all for someone
who's been dead for the past eighty years!
      Now I'm wonming about the other events in that
strange dream.  Remind me not to go for a cruise
aboard the M/V Columbia Star...

SHUTTLE ENDEAVOUR OPENS
GLOBAL MAPPING MISSION

      "Space shuttle Endeavour and a crew of six
roared into orbit Friday," February 11, 2000, "on
a long-delayed mission to create the finest map of
Earth ever produced."
      "'We're ready to map the world,' commander
Kevin Kregel said."
      "Just five-and-a-half hours later, the astronauts
began extending a 197-foot (59 meter) radar antenna
mast from the shuttle cargo bay.  It was a tense job
and, by far, the biggest challenge of the mission."
      "Within 17 minutes, the tower-like mast was all
the way out, and it became the longest rigid structure
ever deployed in space."
      "The liftoff came after five months of postponements
caused by hardware trouble, including damaged wiring.
A few technical problems caused a brief delay Friday,
but once Endeavour took off, everything appeared to go
well during the climb to orbit."
      "For the mapping mission to be successful, the
mast had to make it all the way out and then pass a
series of stability tests.  NASA had never attempted
such a feat before."
      "For launch, the mast was folded into a 9-foot
(2.7 meter) can that also held a motor-driven nut
that would push the mast out.  The mast consists
of a series of stiff stacked cubes three-and-a-half feet
(1 meter) that are made of steel, titanium and plastic."
      "To NASA's relief, each of the cubes emerged from
the can, one right after the other."
      "By using two radar antennas, one at the end of the
mast and a much larger one anchored in the cargo bay,
sientists expect to obtain 3-D (three dimensional)
snapshots of Earth's terrain.  And they expect those
snapshots to be more plentiful and more accurate than
any taken before, a boon not only to the Pentagon but
also to environmentalists, airlines and emergency-
relief groups."
      Here's how the mapping process worked:
      (1) First the radar mast extends 197 feet from
the Endeavour.
      (2) NASA maintains a constant check of the
shuttle's distance above sea level by using the
Global Positioning System (GPS).
      (3) A radar signal is sent to Earth from
Endeavour's cargo bay transmitter.
      (4) The signal bounces off the Earth's
surface, back up to the shuttle.  It's picked up
by antennas aboard Endeavour and mounted at
the end of the extended mast.
      (5) The two radar signals are combined and
compared to sea level to create the three-
dimensional map.
      If the skies are clear, UFO Roundup readers
in the USA's upper Midwest should be able to
see Endeavour passing overhead.  The shuttle
"will appear as a silver streak in the northwest
sky in the constellation Cygnus and will travel to
the east or southeast."
      Endeavour should appear at 6:15 p.m. and
will cross the eastern horizon at 6:21 p.m.  Central
Standard Time.  (See the Minneapolis, Minn. Star-
Tribune for February 13, 2000, "'We're ready to
map the world,'" page 5A.)

from the UFO Files...

707: ATTACK OF THE
         GIANT CRAB

      Every so often, I like to do a story for our
younger readers.  This one comes from the island
of Cebu in the Philippines.  My date of 707 A.D.
is a guesstimate.  This incident happened before
the arrival of the Srivijaya Hindus around the year
800 but after the Cebuano people had acquired
iron tools and weapons.
      One day, Moalboal, the king of Cebu, decided
to have a big hanbaan (Filipino luau--J.T.) on the
north side of the island.  A couple of hundred
people came to the feast.
      Princess Anakmaganda, his 15-year-old
daughter, was there, playing tinikling with her
friends.  Tinikling is a very tricky game in which
a girl dances between two bamboo poles which
her friends clap together.  When they pick up
the tempo, a girl has to be pretty quick on
her feet to avoid getting her ankles trapped.
      Well, nobody on Cebu was as good at
tinikling as Anakmaganda.  No matter how
fast her friends clacked the bamboo, the princess
managed to keep on dancing, laughing merrily..
      At last the call to supper ended the game.  The
girls put the bamboo poles aside and made their
way to the hanbaan.  All except Anakmaganda.
A bit overheated after all that dancing, she slipped
away to Panagsama Beach.
      After shedding her saya (Filipino sarong--J.T.) on
the sand, Anakmaganda dashed into the foaming surf,
took a deep breath and dived into an incoming wave.
She swam out to the reef, then returned to the beach
with a leisurely backstroke.
(Editor's Note:  Sad to say, Panagsama's coral
reef no longer exists.  The reef, which took millions
of years to form, was destroyed by the typhoon that
swept over Cebu in September 1984.)
      Soon Anakmaganda was sitting on her saya,
hugging her knees and letting the warm tropical
breeze dry her off and watching the brilliant sunset
over the Tanon Strait.
      Suddenly, she blinked in disbelief.  There was.
something moving out there, just beyond the
reef.  The princess "saw with astonishment an
island that had never been visible on the sea
before."
      Alarmed, she grabbed her saya, ran across
the beach and hid in the jungle.  Hastily winding
the garment around herself, she watched the
dark object move through the whitewater topping
the reef.  "Presently she could make out, despite
the failing light, that it was no island but a crab..."
      The crab was about the size of a school bus.
"Its goggling eyes were dreadful to see, its mouth
was opening fiercely, its claws working as if eager
to clutch its prey."
      "The moon arose at the full, making a track of
light across the heaving waters, and the crab, facing
east," scuttled up the sandy beach.  It began to
move sideways, seemingly heading for the village.
      I have to do something! Anakmaganda thought.
But what?
     And then she noticed a conch shell lying on the
sand just a few feet from the bushes.  Dropping to
her hands and knees, so the giant crab wouldn't
see her, she reached through the shrubbery and
grabbed the conch.
      Taking a deep breath, Anakmaganda "placed
her conch-shell horn to her lips and blew with
all her strength."  A mournful note echoed across
the lagoon.  In the distance, she could still hear
her people singing and laughing.
      So she tried it again.  Another deep breath,
another long bellow from the conch.
      "This time the jungle was still.  Her people
were listening."
      Taking one last deep breath, she put her
lips to the conch and sounded a deep-toned
blast that drowned out the crash of the waves.
"And, in a few minutes, the (Cebuano) warriors
swarmed upon the beach with knives, swords
and lances."
      Emerging from the jungle, the princess
pointed at the huge crustacean and shouted,
"Alimango!  Alimango!"  (Tagalog for giant crab--J.T.)
      Antennae waving, the crab turned toward
the princess and then skittered about and
charged the warriors.  Its claw rose and fell,
killing the warrior Tatluhan.  The Cebuanos fled
with the crab in pursuit.
      Anakmaganda intercepted them and,
grabbing the war chief Nagtagumpay, cried,
"Stand and fight.  We have to stop this creature
before it reaches the village."
      "Highness, it is covered with armor," said
Nagtagumpay.
      Another warrior clutched the amulet that
dangled from his neck.  "It is mahiwaga!"
(Tagalog for magical or weird--J.T.)
      "We cannot defeat it!" another wailed.
      "Oh, yes, we can," Anakmaganda said,
and, grabbing a kris (Filipino knife--J.T.) from
one of the warriors, "fell upon it, the princess
leading the attack with the war-call of her
tribe."
      By now, it was hard to say who was more
frightened--the Cebuanos or the crustacean.
The crab, its pincers snapping, the gills on
its ten legs fluttering, found itself surrounded
by several dozen screaming bipeds.
      "As the crab turned to see what had
befallen, the princess slashed off his great
left claw.  With the other, it crushed a soldier,
but again her kris fell and the right claw fell
likewise.  Then a hundred men rushed upon
the creature, prodding their spears into the
joints of ihis legs and the dividing line between
his back plate and belly.  Others fell under his
great bulk or were gnashed by his teeth.  But in
the end his shell was broken," and the island
of Cebu was saved..
      Ove the years, the tale of Anakmaganda
and indeed the crab itself grew with the telling.
By the time Magellan arrived on Cebu in 1521,
Alimango was said to be "larger than a hundred
water buffalo" and had tried to jump up and
grab the moon "and drag it to its den beneath
the ocean."
      A crab as big as a school bus!  Could such
a crustacean exist?  Well, if you visit the Geology
Museum at the state university in Rapid City,
South Dakota, you'll see an actual fossil of
Archeron, the largest marine turtle that ever
existed.  This turtle had a shell 11 feet long
and was 12 feet wide from fin to fin.
      It might be interesting to see if a giant crab
fossil is ever found in a hitherto undiscovered
sandstone of the Permian Period.
      It would be even more interesting if Alimango
himself came ashore in Manila Bay and
scuttled across Roxas Boulevard.  Traffic would
be tied up all the way to Tagaytay!  (See the
book Myths and Legends of our New Possessions
and Protectorate by Charles M. Skinner, J.B.
Lippincott and Co., Philadelphia, Pa. 1900,
pages 317 and 318.)

      Chunks of ice falling on Europe.  The Virgin
Mary appearing in Argentina.  Hillary actually
running for the Senate.  No doubt about it.  The
year 2000 is shaping up to be a really strange
year.  But we'll be here to provide complete
coverage of all the phenomena.  Join us next
week for more UFO and paranormal news from
around the world, brought to you by "the paper
that goes home--UFO Roundup."  See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2000 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may
post news items from UFO Roundup on their
websites or in newsgroups provided that they
credit the newsletter and its editor by name and
list the date of issue in which the item first
appeared.

*********************************************************
IMPORTANT Please Read:
======================

The Hunger Site
---------------
http://www.thehungersite.com

Every 3.6 seconds somebody starves to death. 3/4 of the
deaths are children under 5. By visiting the Hunger Site
and clicking on a button you can donate free food.

There is absolutely no charge to you for the donation -
the food is paid for by sponsors.

Do this once a day (no more) and help make a difference!
If you have a web site download a banner and give a link!
*********************************************************

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm


Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives of the UK UFO Network Bulletin,
AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences,
UFO + PSI Magazine also available, plus archives of
Filer's Files.








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   Feb > Feb 18

                       [lunascan] FW: Sitchin Lecture

From: Brian Zinkle <bzinkle@mwt.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:29:08 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:53:02 -0500
Subject: [lunascan] FW: Sitchin Lecture



----------
From: earthman[SMTP:hardjube@ihug.co.nz]
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 1:07 PM
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:@smtp2.ihug.co.nz;
Subject: [adventuresunlimited] Sitchin Lecture

From: "earthman" <hardjube@ihug.co.nz>

ZECHARIA IN PERSON

Zecharia Sitchin will lecture (slide presentation) and give a
full-day seminar in Memphis, TN, on March 10/11, 2000.  The
lecture/slide presentation will be on Friday March 10th at
7:30 PM. The full day seminar (AM session, PM session, Q&A
period) will be on Saturday March 11, starting 9:30 AM.

Both events will be sponsored by and held at

First Unity Church,
9228 Walnut Grove Blvd.,
Cordova,
Tennessee 38018

Cost: Friday only $35 (advance reservation), $45 at the door
Saturday only $75 (advance reservation), $100 at the door

To pre-register: call 901-753-1463
email: firstunity1@cs.com

Ample motel facilities available for overnight stay.





On March 26th Zecharia will be a principal speaker in Amsterdam,
Holland, at the Millennium UFO Congress. For reservations and
information: call 31 (for Holland) 06-2667-4855




We are about to go on a Journey. All Aboard
http://sites.netscape.net/gsussnzl/poleshift


Please Come Visit Our Website

Exotic Travel, Lost Cities, Atlantis, Anti-Gravity, Mind
Control, Tesla Technology, Free Energy, Ancient Science,
Conspiracy, Unexplained Phenomena, Alternative Health, UFO's,
Extraterrestrials and much much more

http://www.adventuresunlimited.co.nz





----------------------------------------------------------------

THE LUNASCAN PROJECT (TLP): An Earth-Based Telescopic Imaging (EBTI)
program using live and recorded CCD technology to document and record
Lunar Transient Phenomena (TLPs).

The Lunascan Project HomePage
http://www.evansville.net/~slk/lshomepage.html

The Project's Mission Statement :
http://www.evansville.net/~slk/miss.html








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                  Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:13:23 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:56:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?


 >Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:54:37 -0500 (EST)
 >From: James Bouck <JGBOUCK@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >After looking at the many responses to this inquiry, I think a
 >great many ideas were suggested that are excellent reading.

 >Unfortunately, and I am going to have to go against the
 >suggestions of many but I personally feel that abduction books
 >should be discouraged.

 >I'm sure many will disagree with me, but it is hard enough to
 >talk to a possible abductee and accept everything mentioned
 >after learning that the person is very well read in abductions.

 >UFOs can be investigated for verification of what might be out
 >there, but abductions take more time and effort. By giving them
 >knowledge that might influence them in the future can hinder the
 >search for truth and accuracy.

<snip>

Hi James.

We are experiencing an explosion of information which is freely
and readily available to students here in Canada. Even if
someone does not read, he/she is already influenced in what the
"truth" is from friends, teachers, etc. and of course through
other media. Curiousity should not be discouraged and neither
should investigation into such things as UFO abductions just
because of possible influence or contamination.

On Valentine's Day I was given a book bought for me by a grade
four student which is only available for distribution through
the school market. The book's title was 'Alien Abduction? The
Evidence and the Arguments'. It is beautifully illustrated in
colour and the UFO abduction cases mentioned includes, Betty and
Barney Hill, Travis Walton and Linda Cortile.

Nick Balaskas








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                       TMP News: News Briefing 2.18.00

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 06:59:37 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:14:02 -0500
Subject: TMP News: News Briefing 2.18.00


TMP NEWS
The E-News Service of The Millennium Project

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

February 18, 2000

_____________________________



NEWS BRIEFING
2.18.00



FEDERAL JUDGE AGREES WITH UFO GROUP AND FINDS GOVERNMENT'S
AFFIDAVITS INADEQUATE
Ground-breaking decision by federal judge in CAUS court case may
set new precedent for the future...
http://www.caus.org/pn021600b.htm

WAS MARS POLAR LANDER DOOMED BY FATAL DESIGN FLAW?
Problem with 'ground contact' now considered by NASA Failure
Review Board to belikely explanation for loss of probe..
http://www.spacedaily.com/spacecast/news/mars-polar99-00f1.html

POSSIBLE MARS POLAR LANDER SIGNAL NOW BELIEVED TO BE OF
TERRESTRIAL ORIGIN
Subsequent analysis of radio data reveals no sign of signal...
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/mplsignal.html

JUPITER'S HOT, MUSHY MOON
Red-hot lava flows on Io support theory of an ocean of magma
underground...
http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/PSRdiscoveries/Feb00/IoMagmaOcean.html

ONSET OF TITANIC COLLISION LIGHTS UP SUPERNOVA RING
Debris and blast wave from explosion heat surrounding gas ring
to millions of degrees...
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/supernova.html


_____________________________


TMP News is the electronic news service of The Millennium
Project, providing daily news briefings of the latest relevant
news stories and reports, as well as information and updates on
TMP-related news and events. TMP News is edited by Paul Anderson
and published by TMP, and is available free by subscription; to
be added to or removed from the mailing list, send your request,
including "subscribe TMP News" or "unsubscribe TMP News" and
e-mail address to:

psa@direct.ca

For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all
correspondence to:

THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC   V6J 1J4   Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

_____________________________


� The Millennium Project, 2000








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                        Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2096 09:05:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:36:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000



 >Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:25:59 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:58:05 -0600
 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000

 >>I didn't misread George, and I stand by what I said.

 >I was very surprised by your overreaction to George's comments
 >on the origins of E.T. life and God in his latest UFO
 >newsletter.

I didn't overreact, Nick, any more than you have overreacted
to my remarks.  I just responded to what George Filer said
-- sentiments thatt I considered, and consider, unhelpful and
less than well thought out..

 >Jerry, do you feel you have some special insights or knowledge
 >about UFOs we do not have to decide for us what is relevant or
 >not regarding UFOs?

I guess my special insight is that science, not religion, is
more likely to represent a productive approach to the unraveling
of the UFO problem.  If, as George suggests, we have to abandon
science and embrace a literalist biblical supernaturalism to
discuss UFOs and extraterrestrial life meaningfully, then I am
in the wrong field and all those seemingly mindless, uninformed
critics who dismiss ufology as a religion turn out to have been
right, after all.

Jerry Clark










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                             CME Heads for Earth

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:27:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:20:36 -0500
Subject: CME Heads for Earth


Space Science News for February 18, 2000

Here Comes the Sun:  A "full halo" coronal mass ejection left the
Sun yesterday, apparently headed directly for Earth. When the
leading edge of the disturbance reaches our planet on Feb. 19 or
20, it could trigger aurora and other geomagnetic activity.

FULL STORY at:

http://www.spacescience.com/headlines/y2000/ast18feb_1.htm

<end of quote>

Saturday night could have great auroras along with the Starshine
satellite reentry!

Terry






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                     Aurora alert for Feb. 19 and/or 20

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:51:31 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:48:19 -0500
Subject: Aurora alert for Feb. 19 and/or 20


 >Space Science News for February 18, 2000

 >Here Comes the Sun:  A "full halo" coronal mass ejection left
 >the Sun yesterday, apparently headed directly for Earth. When
 >the leading edge of the disturbance reaches our planet on Feb.
 >19 or 20, it could trigger aurora and other geomagnetic
 >activity. FULL STORY at:

 >http://www.spacescience.com/headlines/y2000/ast18feb_1.htm

Hi Errol.

If the snow stops falling and the sky is clear on Saturday
and/or Sunday nights, the aurora may be visible in our
mid-latitudes.

If you wish to check the current auroral acitivity on your
computer first before spending time out in the cold (or to
inform your SDI listeners about the possible light show in the
sky overhead), the URL to go to is:

http://www.sec.noaa.gov/pmap/index.html

Nick








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                  Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:31:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:53:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?


 >Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:54:37 -0500 (EST)
 >From: James Bouck <JGBOUCK@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >After looking at the many responses to this inquiry, I think a
 >great many ideas were suggested that are excellent reading.

<snip>

Thanks for your ideas Jim,

I will reference them in the future.

Thanks,
Todd Lemire
--
"We would rather, I suspect, fear the unknown than convert it to
the known.  What we may fear more deeply than the unknown itself
is the prospect of actually knowing it.  Happily for all of us
there are people like yourself who refuse to be bound by such
mass refusal of reality, who are not afraid to seek and learn."

Coral Lorenzen : Flying Saucers - The Startling Evidence of The
Invasion from Outer Space








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   Feb > Feb 18

                       Re: Roswell Items Sent to NASA

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:42:52 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:18:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Roswell Items Sent to NASA


 >Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:09:15 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com>
 >Subject: Roswell Items Sent to NASA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Greetings list -

 >From: http://www.abqjournal.com/news/5news02-16-00.htm

 >Roswell Items Sent to NASA
 >Wednesday, February 16, 2000
 >The Associated Press

<snip>

 >Space Center representatives came to Roswell about a month ago,
 >along with marketing experts, to look over potential items to be
 >included in an exhibit on the impact of UFOs on popular culture,
 >Wolkwitz said.

 >"They said it's the first time that NASA has ever given
 >permission for them to display anything on UFOs or aliens," she
 >said. "But they feel that it has so saturated pop culture and
 >that it's so much a part of the movie and TV industry that they
 >felt it was time they addressed it and showed how we view aliens
 >as a culture."

 >The exhibit opens at the Space Center in March and ends in
 >mid-May.

<snip>

Hi everyone.

Could this be NASA's subtle way of telling us that UFOs are
extraterrestrial spacecraft? In addition to the items from
Roswell, I wonder what other things NASA plans to include in its
UFO exhibit.

NASA could displayed something like the obviously fake large
Martian rock embedded with manufactured E.T. hardware which was
on display at "Spaceport Toronto" at the base of the CN Tower
many years ago but they may also take this opportunity to throw
in some real E.T. hardware too, if they have any.

Nick Balaskas








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   Feb > Feb 18

                        Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:34:48 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:24:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000


 >Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2096 09:05:07 -0600
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >I guess my special insight is that science, not religion, is
 >more likely to represent a productive approach to the unraveling
 >of the UFO problem.  If, as George suggests, we have to abandon
 >science and embrace a literalist biblical supernaturalism to
 >discuss UFOs and extraterrestrial life meaningfully, then I am
 >in the wrong field and all those seemingly mindless, uninformed
 >critics who dismiss ufology as a religion turn out to have been
 >right, after all.

Hi Jerry.

The way I see it, when trying to understand or study something
such as UFOs, we must make a conscious effort to set aside our
personal biases or beliefs. This way we are more likely to gain
new knowledge or understanding of something which has remained a
mystery to us for so long because it did not fit into the way we
thought the universe should work.

The supernatural only exists because we insist on holding on to
our current ways of thinking. If we set out to be truly
scientific, then we would find that many things we now call
supernatural are just part of the true natural world, the one
that we are still learning about. Remember that modern science
is only a few decades older than ufology and it is still
changing.

We should not be afraid where truth will ultimately take us,
even if the truth leads us to areas not to our liking. What if
at the end of the day we discover that UFOs are something like a
projection from a multidimensional universe or a spiritual
cosmos?  Do you simply leave this field of study, as you imply
in your e-mail, or do you become "religious" like George and I.

Nick Balaskas








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   Feb > Feb 18

                              Filer's Files #7

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:37:37 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:10:10 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #7



Filer's Files #07 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,  Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
February 18, 2000,  Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020
Web Site at www.filersfiles.com. -- Chuck Warren Webmaster.

NEW PHYSICAL EVIDENCE OF ABDUCTIONS

Marilyn Ruben at Alien Abduction Experience and Research
reports that a significant breakthrough in the search for trace
physical evidence of alien abductions may have been uncovered
in ordinary household dust according to biophysicist Dr.
William C. Levengood of Pinelandia Biophysics Laboratory of
Michigan.  Microscopic glassy particles have been found in
household dust of individuals claiming to be abductees.  Glassy
particles have been found in bedrooms, kitchens, family rooms,
hallways, basement stairs, and so on.  Glassy particles have
not been found in dust where abductions are not known to occur.
The glassy particles come in a variety of shapes, including
hollow or solid spheres.  The particles are occasionally amber
in color and vary in size from 1 micron or more, which is
1/1,000 of a millimeter or larger.  Other more elongated
particles include a "pseudo crystal" and an octopus shape.
These forms are often clear and contain definite non-cellular,
non-plant structure.  A visual inspection of the "pseudo
crystals" under 450x magnification gives the appearance of a
fiber optic arrangement, while the octopus structure sometimes
appears to have exploded outward at its center as if releasing
something.

Household dust is best collected from areas not commonly
dusted, such as the top ledges of doors and window frames.
Unexplainable whitish dust in recently cleaned rooms of
abductees' homes has also tested positive for these glassy
particles.  While abductees' homes have produced two or more
styles of particles, no abductee's home to date has produced
all styles of particles.  Dr. Levengood is continuing his
research into uncovering the origin of the currently
unexplainable glassy particles.  Thanks to Marilyn Rueben and
Nancy Talbot. Particle photos can be seen at:
http://www.abduct.com/aaer2/r9.htm.

Editor's Note: This evidence is very convincing and in the past
I have frequently asked abductees to collect this type of
evidence for BLT Research. Any person who has intruders in
their home has the right to ask that their situation be
investigated.  Now we have a method for determining that
unusual particles have been left in the abductee's home.  I
consider this a break through in helping to prove that strange
things are happening in abductee's homes.

GENETIC ABDUCTION RESEARCH

Red Setter writes, "We simply do not know enough today to
understand how new species develop.  The answer is "we don't
know".  It is very suspicious that most abductees show
punch-biopsy marks on their legs, as if for DNA PCR sampling.
This suggests that alien species are (a) monitoring our genetic
development, if not (b) adding transgenes and following their
penetrance over many generations.  Our new lab will analyze
alien tissue samples, to see how they relate to man.  Best, Red
Setter Editors Note: It would be wonderful to support research
in this field where a break through may be expected.

MASSACHUSETTS FLYING TRIANGLE

CANTON -- On February 8, 2000, I was traveling south at 5:15
AM, when I saw a bright light off to the west.  I traveled for
three miles on Route 95 watching the strange light when
something told me to pull over into the breakdown lane to
watch.  A flying triangle passed overhead just ahead of my
truck and I noticed its lights were not setup like a normal
planes.  There were eight yellow/white lights.  One was one on
each of the three corners.  Two were in the front side by side,
three at the bottom middle side by side, and several across the
back.  Two blue strobe lights were at the middle rear of the
craft.  As it passed in front of my truck, I rolled down the
window but could hear no sound.  This craft was as large as my
hand at arm's length. A jet plane at this height would have
been very loud, but there was no noise.  The triangle traveled
about ten miles in about two minutes (300 mph) from Route 1A in
Walpole to Route 138 Stoughton.  Thanks to Peter Davenport
NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

NEW YORK CIGAR UFO CHANGES TO BALL

GLENWOOD LANDING -- I went down to Tappan Beach to eat on
February 2, 2000, and saw a strange light in the northern sky I
decided to go home to get my video camera just in case it was
worth taping.  I got back in only five minutes since I live up
the block.  I saw a long cigar shaped light gray to white
object at 5:00 PM, but the original light remained stationary.
There were three other planes in the sky leaving dual
contrails.  I watched for 30 seconds, and realized the cigar
was huge and the length of seven commercial jets.  It was
moving really slow for something that big.  The cigar flew past
the stationary light.  As it turned towards my direction, its
shape turned into a ball-heading west.  In my videotape your
can hear the sound of a strong wind.  This could not have been
a balloon because they don't fly against the wind.  I was able
to get about ninety seconds of the cigar on videotape.  Thanks
to Peter Davenport, Director NUFORC, www.ufocenter.com

NEW JERSEY FOUR POSSIBLE UFOs SIGHTED

OLD BRIDGE--OBJECT #1 - Sam Sherman writes, "On February 11,
2000, I was driving south on Cottrell Road and as I slowed to a
stop I observed a luminous aerial object traveling
south/southwest at 6:55 PM.  It was tubular in shape with a
pointed arrow-like front and bright yellow/white color.  The
last third of the object had an unusual red to orange glow.
The lighted body was far brighter than the average plane light
in the sky.  The object traveled with far greater speed than
planes I am used to seeing.  It was heading down at a 30
degrees angle towards the ground.  It seemed to fade out in the
clouds or I lost sight of it.

OBJECT #2 -- Moments later I saw an unusual plane heading north
towards me in the direction of where I was with very bright
lights illuminating the bottom of the plane and looking to
point downward.  These lights compared with other aircraft
lights, were brighter than any I had ever seen.  The object
made a turn and headed north/northwest.

OBJECT #3 -- Continuing to drive about 1/2 mile south I got out
of my car and observed what I thought was a plane extremely
bright with wildly strobing white and red lights.  As it headed
north/northeast in the distance I saw this as only one wide
wing with white and red bright lights wildly moving in
sequential patterns to the right and left across this long
horizontal surface.

OBJECT #4 -- At 7:30 PM I was taking my wife and my mother out
to dinner and we were driving west on Ferry Road.  As we
approached the stop light at Route 18 (I had yet to mention my
previous sightings), both ladies exclaimed, "What's that?"
There was an object with extremely bright red and white lights
all over it flashing wildly in random patterns.  We all
observed this coming towards us and then turning to head north.
I give no possible explanation to the objects I saw.  I have
been observing planes and phenomena in the sky for many years
and the four above objects were unlike any I had previously
seen and definitely out of the ordinary.  Thanks to Sam Sherman
flexaret@sprynet.com

GEORGIA POLICE SPOT UFO

POLK/BARTON COUNTY LINE -- A six-year veteran of the Polk
County Police Department was on duty at 04:09 AM on February
03, 2000.  He was on Route 113N facing south with the patrol
car's engine off preparing for traffic patrol.  He looked out
through his car window toward the stars since earlier he had
seen meteors and the usual air traffic going towards Hartsfield
Airport.  Suddenly he saw a red glow behind a gray circular
object.  It was like nothing he had ever seen before.  The
object flew towards him at a great speed making no sound.  It
had a gray cone shape front that elongated into a cylinder.
The object was flying from the southeast toward the
west-northwest.  As the object got closer, he saw on the rear a
red glowing circle of light.  but no recognizable engines,
markings, lights or windows.  It lasted no more than eight
seconds but shook him up.  He called 911 by phone, not over the
radio and asked if any other reports came in concerning a
sighting.  There were no other reports.  Thanks to Mary Dee
Janssenate and Tom Sheets MUFONGA State Director

GEORGIA MYSTERY BLAST INVESTIGATION

COLUMBUS -- John Thompson is investigating a February 5, 2000,
mystery boom that shook the region at 5:19 PM.  I thought I had
it pinned down to an F-15 at Warner-Robbins, near Perry, but
now the public affairs officer, John Birdsong, says he's talked
to the F-15 pilot who was doing a test run between Montezuma
and Dublin, Georgia.  The pilot says, "he didn't go supersonic
at anytime, but suggested it was a F-22 from Lockheed Marietta
and 'flying the test route west of Columbus."  So we are to
believe a corporate owned F-22 made a boom while in Alabama
that seems to have covered a path 140 miles long by 70 miles
wide.  Some boom!  I called Lockheed and they said, "They don't
even have a F-22 flying in Georgia."  There was a single
witness according to the Columbus Ledger-Enquirer 2/8/00 by Sam
Thorne Harper.  The witness said that he saw a "black mass with
white smoke traveling just above the trees."  Unfortunately,
this witness did not want to cooperate.  I think we can safely
say it was a sonic boom. I personally think the most realistic
answer is a military jet that landed at Warner Robbins or
further east.  Yes, it could've been a UFO but no reliable
witnesses have come forth.

Dr. L. Timothy Long of Georgia Tech has helped MUFON on seismic
data on this case and others.  His e-mail address is
tim.long@eas.gatech.edu Tim is in the process of developing
equipment that would detect such events  (low frequency sonic
booms and earthquakes).  The price would be $500-1000.  If
there is anyone interested in supporting this project let me
know.  Thanks to John Thompson at Gingerjohn@peoplepc.com

INDIANA GOLD TRIANGLE

GRISSOM AIR FORCE BASE -- I live less than 20 miles from the
base the former home of the Air Force 1 backup plane for the
President.  I'm used to seeing aircraft, but several years ago
I saw some very strange craft in mid-afternoon of a lovely
bright, clear summer day.  I happened to glance out my second
story window and was amazed to see 200 yards to the south three
large triangular craft.  The three triangular unburnished gold
appearing craft were rising silently from the ground in
formation.  One was in front with two to the rear.  They had no
markings, windows, or protrusions, and a rather flat surface
rounded at the corner wit an overall "soft" appearance.  There
were no lights, no openings, and no contrails.  The trajectory
was a bit more than a 45% angle and they were moving rather
slowly as they took off.  They appeared for only a few seconds
and then were simply no longer there.  These craft appeared
very close and the experience seemed quite surreal.  I have
seen pictures of the Aurora and they are similar.  Thanks to
AzimBlue9@aol.com and dcs@comteck.com

NEW MEXICO MOTHERSHIP SIGHTED BY 21 WITNESSES

LORDSBURG - Richard Boylan writes, "I just got back from the
David Shoemaker's most interesting "Aliens and Spirits"
Conference.  He took us to the highest point on a mesa
northwest of town on February 5, 2000, where we saw two
enormous lit up motherships sitting on the ground.  They were
about eight miles away and each ship was over a half-mile in
diameter.  Small "scout" craft were seen departing and
returning to the motherships after flying to outlying mining
sites.  At one point scout ships at distances surrounded the
group from three miles to a half-mile.  David Shoemaker has
examined the landing sites in daylight and says they are mining
alkali to make Brown's Gas, a highly energetic substance.  We
also did a ceremony during the conference to inject the thought
in every human being; "I must take care of the Earth."  Thanks
to Richard Boylan, Ph.D. Editor's Note: This area should be
examined in detail for ground landing trace evidence and the
mining techniques used.

TED PHILLIPS PHYSICAL TRACES

Ted Phillips writes: The updated catalog of physical traces
associated with UFO sightings gives us data from 2,240 events
from 79 countries.  This is a revised and updated list of
traces after taking out all events where no UFO was seen at the
site, crop circles, and cases with little information to study.
There has been a considerable drop in the close encounter/trace
events since the 70's.  Preliminary statistics indicate an
average of 106 such events per year between 1967 and 1979.  The
average per year drops to 15.7 between 1980 and 1999.  Between
1990 and 1999 the yearly average is slightly higher at 17
events per year.  Multiple witness events average 34.4% of the
total events, and last year 31% of the events involved multiple
witnesses.  Occupants were reported at an average rate of 18.4%
of the total events with 1990 to 1999 at 16%.  It is important
to note that the alleged UFO was seen on or very near the
ground for an extended period of time.  Sightings were at least
one to five minutes long and most were observed at less than
200 feet away with good conditions for observation.  Why these
numbers per year have dropped since the late 1970's is not
obvious.  One stand out is that a higher percentage of
witnesses now refuse to report these events if their names or
locations are to be made public.  Ted Phillips CALIFORNIA
LIGHTS

ORANGE COUNTY -- William Hamilton of Skywatch reports NBC News
broadcast February 6, 2000, that unidentified lights were at
midnight toward Los Angeles.  This story is interesting in view
of the fact that I received a report last night around between
8 and 9 PM on a sighting of a cluster of lights seen over
Palmdale not more than 5 miles east of my home location.  Three
of the lights formed a line.  They were also seen moving about,
then disappeared from view.  Thanks to Bill Hamilton Director
Skywatch International, Inc.  home.earthlink.net/~skywatcher22

ROBED HOODED BEINGS SEEN AGAIN

We have several reports of robed hooded figures walking along
the road with bright red eyes in New Jersey.  They were
observed by passing motorists.  We even have a video of a tall
one in the woods with eyes like red light bulbs taken in Ohio.
Darlene an abductee writes: "Since finding freedom from the
hooded beings a couple years ago--through means of certain
practices of my religion, I haven't thought much about them."
However, I have been a bit surprised to find references and
even artwork about them recently.  In the past almost all the
info I found was relative to Greys or occasionally to Nordics.
I do not know to this day if these fiends by which I had been
terrorized most of my adult life (several decades) were demonic
as we all do not know concerning ETs or of some other species.
But they did comply with the practices used against them.  Nor
do I know if I have ever been abducted in the physical sense of
the word; however, I have been "held" unmercifully against my
will.  I used to refer to these experiences as night terrors.
I suffered terribly from nightmares during my childhood -- but
now they are only sporadic but still just as frightening.  "My
last episode ended with me fighting them off with my fists as
they attempted to work on me on an operating table in a
brightly lit room."  "I awoke to find myself on my hands and
knees on the bed pounding the hell out of my pillow."  Thanks
to Darlene.

UNITED KINGDOM

DORSET --  An ancient castle sited in a Dorset town is a magnet
for spacecraft from another planet.  That is the finding of a
Dorchester-based UFO investigator who recorded 130 other
reports of strange activity in the county's skies last year -
32 of, which remain unexplained.  But it is Maiden Castle,
which seems to come in for most attention with a catalogue of
reports of unexplained sightings over the years.  A large
earthwork construction of banks and ditches in an area that has
also experienced crop circles.  Dorset UFO investigator David
Kingston of Martinstown said: "The castle seems to attract
these craft.  I have checked back into the history of the
castle and uncovered many strange reports.  Many people have
also described seeing colored lights and with no explanation.
The size of some of these craft is about 80 feet in diameter."
David thinks the craft could be sent from other planets to
check out earth on unmanned probes.  He said: "That is what
ours do with Mars and so this could happen with other planets.
In the future we should be able to find out."  David, aged 61,
is a retired RAF worker and is now a full-time UFO
investigator.  He said: "There are definitely craft which
cannot be explained and are from another planet.  Having been
in the RAF I know the distances aircraft should fly over
populated areas.  These are different.  "We had sightings about
two years ago of a triangular craft 100 foot above the
Puddletown bypass.  We also have video footage of craft seen
over the Ridgeway and NASA has analyzed it.  The Western
Gazette, Feb. 5, 2000.  Thanks to Gerry at Far Shores
http://www.farshore.force9.co.uk

LINCOLNSHIRE UFO FLASHES A BEAM

KINGS LYNNE --On January 23, 2000, at 9: 00 PM, a married
couple "saw a bright light glide over their house and travel
some three miles from Holbeach towards Kings Lynne."  "The
object was traveling slowly with a flashing light much like a
navigation light on a plane."  "Suddenly, a large white light
appeared in the center of the object with flickering
intermittent lights around the object."  The witnesses
estimated that the UFO was three miles away and hovering at an
estimated altitude of 15,000 feet.  "The object hovered for
approximately ten minutes, at which point the object then
dipped to the right slowly, then shot up away into the sky" at
an estimated 5,000 miles per hour.  "As my Mum put it, 'it flew
into space!' " My parents are not taken to flights of fancy,
and my father is a trained ex-RAF observer of 25 years.  Thanks
to UFONET and Todd Lemire.

SAUDI ARABIA UFOs CAUSE ELECTRICAL PROBLEMS

RIYADH -- My name is Mohammed and I'm a 34-year old-network
designer who saw UFOs.  Two years ago, I bought a fully loaded
jeep with a Ground Positioning System (GPS) to go camping out
in the Rub-al-khali desert in southeast Saudi Arabia.  A few
days into the trip around 10:00 PM, I saw three shooting stars
fall normally but they suddenly slowed down.  Two came toward
me and were about 500 meters from me.  They moved side by side
at about 50 km and 200 meters off the ground.  They were round
with a pointed on the top and bottom. They were silver and had
an orange like glow around them.  They were about the size of
an 18-wheeler truck, but made no sound.  I decided to give
chase. When I turned the key nothing happened the jeep would
not start the (GPS) which also has a back up power supply was
also dead.  Now they were heading south from me.  I looked back
for the one, which was not moving, but it had gone.  The whole
sighting lasted for about five minutes.  After it was over I my
jeep started and the (GPS) was working fine.  The only thing I
don't under stand is why my wristwatch stopped for 50 minutes.
Thanks to Larry lclark@ibm.net (Larry Clark)

WHERE HEAVENS MEET IS A GREAT BOOK

Where Heavens Meet chronicles the remarkable true story of K.t.
Frankovich and her unique life.  It had a profound effect on me
because I have never read a book written by a person who had
been homeless in poverty, crippled, and wheelchair-bound on the
streets of Miami with her 13-year-old son.  This book is
remarkable in that it opens your mind to many new realms of
discovery.  For example, I have never chased alligators while
swimming in a swamp.  I have never been in a devastating
hurricane like Andrew in Dade, Florida or been treated like she
has in many ways.  K.t. has an amazing ability to bring you
inside her life and live the story beside her.  Her discovery
of alien life in her lime grove alone is worth the price of the
book.  She was wide-awake and gives a detailed narrative of the
alien's every muscle and movement.  Her book is multifaceted,
and is really many books in one.  This book is a revelation
unlike anything I have ever read before.  'In the past she has
won the coveted Gold Venus Award for screenwriting, I think
this book will win her more awards.  Her story continues.  See
http://members.aol.com/KFrnkovich/index.html.

FLORIDA UFO HOVERS ABOVE K.t's HOME

Ocala National Forest - K.t. writes, "I don't recall the exact
date, but just after moving to the forest something incredible
occurred."  One night in the wee hours of the morning, I was
awakened abruptly.  The entire trailer was vibrating so hard
that I thought it was going to shake apart!  My instantaneous
thought was, 'My God, it's a tornado!'  Even my dogs were
terrified out of their wits!  But when I quickly got my senses
together, I realized it couldn't be a tornado because the
entire bedroom -- hallway -- and living room -- were flooded
with this brilliant white light coming from outside my bedroom
window.  There was a strange fast-rotating-whirling noise just
above the roof.  It sounded like something was going to crash
right through the roof at any moment!  I realized it was some
sort of craft hovering directly above the roof but it was
certainly no kind of craft I knew of!  I had never heard
anything rotate that fast and have that specific kind of
whirling noise.  I had been around planes all my life.  I knew
this strange sound was definitely not a helicopter!  I crept
out of bed, put on my glasses and went to the window where I
looked up directly into the beam of light.  But it was so
damned bright I couldn't make out the shape of the craft.  One
thing I could definitely distinguish was that the craft was
only about ten feet above the roof!  And I could tell whatever
it was, it was huge because I could see pulsating red lights
going around and around in a gigantic circular motion.  I
remember thinking, 'Holy shit, the damn window pane is gonna
shatter from the vibration!'

I glanced at the clock; it was 3:45 in the morning.  Ten
minutes later, the beam of light just suddenly went off, along
with the circular pulsating red lights, and the noise began to
fade.  The walls of the trailer stopped shaking immediately
thereafter.  There was no way I could go back to bed, not after
something like that.  I instinctively knew who it was and why
it was done.  For months I had been questioning if the lime
grove beings knew where I had moved.  There wasn't a doubt in
my mind that the beings were letting me know they were
definitely aware of my new location.  I was really comforted in
knowing they had not lost track of me.  And for the first time
I realized, they would always be somewhere close by.  Thanks to
K.t.Frankovich

HELICOPTER GAMES

Jennifer Brown-Jacobs I enjoyed (and got a laugh) from that
story by the guy on the boat near San Francisco who shot at the
Flying Triangle craft that launched a helicopter in your #6
Filer's Files.  I laughed because I visualized the incident and
it was so bizarre that I had to.  I doubt that kind of a story
was made up.  Seems that these "UFOs" connected with the
helicopters are often associated with bizarre circumstances.
That way, who in their right mind would believe them?  Right?
We had flat black helicopters with no markings popping over 300
foot trees and instantly dropping to within a few feet from our
second story deck.  They circled our house and did this routine
on a daily basis.  They would make up to four circles at a
time.

One night, a. helicopter "landed" on our roof and made plates
and pictures vibrate on the walls and terrify the children.
There were many other experiences with these helicopters that
had long "poles" sticking out the front of them.  The flash
from the camera was unnecessary, knowing the technology
available to these helicopter and "UFO" pilots.  But didn't
that make the whole happening just a little over-the-edge?
That is the way the game is played.  It's called the see if we
can scare 'um and add enough wacko stuff to make it totally
unbelievable game.  And if you didn't know any better or how it
is played, it's likely that most everybody would discount the
whole scenario.  Thanks to Jennifer Brown-Jacobs Jbjksgrl
Editor's Note: Loud black helicopters may have been our own
military, who enjoyed showing off for you.  I would advise you
to try to obtain a photograph or video record and call the
local authorities.  All legal aircraft have some markings,
although they can be hard to see.  This kind of flight activity
is dangerous and illegal.  We are trying to check on the Flying
Triangle story further.  I would think it's technically illegal
to fire at any kind of aircraft, alien or otherwise.  We do
have continuing indications there are craft of this description
flying.  It is thought they are based on an Aereon Corporation
design patented from Princeton, NJ.  Further many fisherman
carry Rugers and when scared might fire into these craft.

PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO shots available and
data on their propulsion systems only $10.00

BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT -- All real
estate agents are not the same?  Some real estate agents or
sales representatives are part timers and inexperienced.
Others are experts with an excellent experience and
capabilities.  When you are selling or buying your home, you
need to make sure you have the best real estate agent working
for you before you make any important financial decisions on
one your biggest investments!  Remember, the majority of people
do not know the right questions to ask, and what pit falls can
cause major problems.  Picking the right real estate agent can
be a wonderful experience, and picking the wrong one can be a
big mistake that can waste your time and cost you thousands!
Find out, "What you need to understand before hiring any real
estate agent!"  These are the questions that many agents do not
want you to ask.  Learn how you can obtain the best real estate
agent for your needs.  To get a free copy of this report, just
call (609) 654-0020 or e-mail us at Majorstar@aol.com. We can
also help you with your own or corporate Worldwide Relocation
to Australia, Benelux, Canada, Cayman Islands, England, France,
Guam, Hong Kong, Israel, Japan, Mexico, New Zealand, Northern
Ireland, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Puerto Rico, and all 50
states of the United States.  We also have help with associates
that speak languages other than their native tongue.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe by contacting Mufon@aol.com. Mention I
recommended you for membership.  Filer's Files is Copyrighted
2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
items from the Files on their Web Sites provided that they
credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date
of issue that the item appeared.  Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com.  Sending mail automatically grants
permission for us to publish, becomes property of these files.
Please state if you wish to keep your name or story
confidential.  Be healthy and succeed!










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   Feb > Feb 18

                             My Lunch with MJ12

From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:28:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:13:24 -0500
Subject: My Lunch with MJ12


Hi,

I will name my source SARGON. SARGON was a contractor briefed
into the MJ12 organization. SARGON has now been out both
organizations for a year. The summary of our lunch conversation
is:

MJ12 is US Government program that interacts with at least one
species of extraterrestrials. MJ12 missions are to manage our
interactions with the aliens and to exploit the reversed
engineered technology for national purposes. The aliens actively
help MJ12 to reverse engineer the technology.

Started in 1947, MJ12 is a NSA program hidden within its 'C'
Group. [We both speculated that NSA was established in part to
cover MJ12.] Several hundred government workers in accordance
with the GS hierarchy make up the MJ12 organization. SARGON
confirmed that MJ12 recruits it employees against different
needs and has some process of potential employee identification
and tracking. MJ12 budget is in the multiple billions per year.

Though fairly autonomous in its operations, it ultimately
reports to a joint committee whose members include the Directors
of both the NSA and CIA. The President is not necessarily in the
chain.

Some MJ12 facilities are located at Ft. Meade, Northern
Virginia, Sandia, Los Alamos, Denver [Buckley Air Force Base],
and Los Angeles. As the British are partners [junior?], MJ12 has
facilities at Menwith Hill Station, England. Though there are
other locations, missions are flown out of Sandia in very
special craft. :-) Missions focus on signal intelligence
gathered with very exotic technology. Off-Earth capabilities are
possible.

Some prime contractors for MJ12 include Lockheed, Boeing, TRW,
and TASC.

MJ12 does not directly participate in abductions. Alien
abductions of humans were not part of a 'deal'. SARGON
impression was it was for the genetic betterment of the human
race.

MJ12 interacts with the aliens in number of different ways:  -
Live interactions  - Radio-like communications

SARGON had not been briefed on Project Preserve Destiny but
having read the book, believes the account to be true. Though
SARGON does not know of any specific impending natural upheaval,
SARGON has a general fear of such an event.

 >From a psychological point of view, SARGON is constantly amazed
how individuals who act on behalf of MJ12 can compartment their
lives. One example cited was of male seen by SARGON at a local
restaurant. Apparently when working, this individual flies
SIGNIT missions aboard very special craft using alien
technology. SARGON was amazed to watch this same individual play
with his children with no hint, of course, of his exposure to
entirely new world.

Other bits and pieces: SARGON knew of Deep Space Probes but
SARGON did not associate it with NSA.

MJ12 is the most highly classified program within the US
Government. For the past 50 years the alien-based technology has
provided the US with a decisive, strategic advantage in dealing
other nations. I would suggest in affect it has FAR exceeded the
impact of the British ULTRA on history. One day, the history of
the later half of the 20th Century will need to be re-written.

<<<Late Breaking News>>>  Another source KREIG confirms seeing
MJ12 in a budget report. Further, that in 19987 KREIG met with
MJ12 at Ft Meade.

So far I have identified 5 creditable who have been briefed into
the MJ12 program.

Best Regards,  Bob Huff  "Given a choice between two theories,
take the one which is funnier."




--
Best Regards,
Bob Huff
"Given a choice between two theories, take the one which is funnier."

--








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   Feb > Feb 18

                  Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:44:30 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:17:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?


 >Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:54:37 -0500 (EST)
 >From: James Bouck <JGBOUCK@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >After looking at the many responses to this inquiry, I think a
 >great many ideas were suggested that are excellent reading.

 >Unfortunately, and I am going to have to go against the
 >suggestions of many but I personally feel that abduction books
 >should be discouraged.

 >I'm sure many will disagree with me, but it is hard enough to
 >talk to a possible abductee and accept everything mentioned
 >after learning that the person is very well read in abductions.

Well, you are right in my book about one thing, I agree with your
first few words above, "I'm sure many will disagree with me..."

 >UFOs can be investigated for verification of what might be out
 >there, but abductions take more time and effort. By giving them
 >knowledge that might influence them in the future can hinder the
 >search for truth and accuracy.


Dear Jim and Listers,

Sounds a little like, "Tell them about UFO's but not about
abduction because it might confuse researchers even more, into
not believing the professed abductee."  Shall we keep it all a
secret and tell only the researchers, MUFON or the NSA about our
experiences, but never anyone else who seeks information about
the phenom?

Sounds like censorship to me.  This information is available in
any bookstore.  You seem to be saying that perceived (possible)
abductees may be taking from the available information pool and
applying the information to their own perceived experiences.  We
may trust the UFO sighting witness more than the abduction
witness and the researcher's job is then made that much easier.
Why complicate the job of research by adding another element of
complexity?

To my mind, you may be indicting those who claim abduction
experiences with a marked propensity to lying than may be
appropriate.

How many abductees who have appeared on this venue, claimed
to have had their "awakening" if that word may be used, just by
looking at the picture on the cover of "Communion."  Does this
mean these people are lying, if even unintentionally, to us or
themselves?

Cheeses, Jim.  Your statement is, in my view, silly.  Many, many
perceived abductees have known of their own lot in life since
before book stores started displaying the work of ... the
dreaded "R" word. (Researchers).  When people such as Strieber
happen to be authors _and_ experiencers, if not authors,
experiencers and researchers, display their wares in bookstores,
we run the risk of wannabees mucking up the database by their
taking truth and applying it to their own experiences, when
indeed, they are not reporting the truth.

I can point you to some folks who remember events before
Roswell. If you are correct, then I may be responsible for all
those who have gone after me.

Nah.  I never told anyone except me mommy and daddy.

 >I'm not all that experienced dealing with abductees but I have
 >worked with a few and they have read most of the books out
 >there.


At this very moment, there are researchers who are withholding
information which they refuse to share with the general public,
for the very reason you expressed, that people would take
advantage of having the facts and represent themselves
improperly. In other words, lie like rugs.

This information relates, among other things, to signs and
symbols, to certain perceptions widely reported.  If someone
wants to fake it, all they have to do is tell the researcher
about a few symbols and he or she will immediately know the
claimant is telling the truth or is likely, not lying or
confabulating.

I do not know how to comment on that issue, but I believe that
the information which I've shared with several researchers whom
I trust, should be shared with the rest of us.  We accuse the
governement of holding out on us.  I accuse researchers of
holding out on us as well.  This is my opinion.

I sat in a car with a well known personality and described
something I recalled seeing during an event.  He said nothing to
me.  I did not carry the dialog further.  Neither did any of the
two researchers, both of whom I trusted, say anything about my
description of the symbol.

I verified this, not thru hypnotic regression, but by meeting a
friend whom I had not seen in 30 years.  He described the same
symbol and added several more which I verified.  See, I drew
them for my book, not knowing whether or not I would use them.
I still do not know what to do in that regard.  But I know that
the decision will be mine.  Not someone else's.

But the positive effect it had on me, knowing that this was
something very tangible and was being verified by another,
totally seperate from my own experiences, allowed me to breathe
easier than I had been allowed in years.

Velez was quite correct about researchers sharing.  But in my
view, he did not go far enough.  Researchers should share not
just with one the other, but with the rest of us.

And why not?  Because people who claim to be abductees cannot be
believed as researchers?

Excuse me?  Personally, I believe the best researchers are those
who have been thru the experience. But then, I've just opened up
a very large can of worms, have I not?

Gesundt







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   Feb > Feb 18

                          Re: Phoneix Lights + WCW

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 01:10:25 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:23:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights + WCW


 >Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:31:50 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 03:20:07 +0000
 >>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:24:50 +0100
 >>>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>>Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Well Roy, now I am really confused. What do you mean "Gamma was
 >>>found to be included in the makeup of these lights"? Exactly
 >>>what do you mean? Was Gamma radiation found to be included in
 >>>the spectrum of some of the Phoenix lights? If so, how was it
 >>>measured?

 >I think he means "gamma", as applied to film or nowadays to
 >video.

 >"Gamma" is the slope of the transfer curve that relates
 >brightness of a portion of a scene to the brightness of the
 >image of that scene.

 >I could get a lot more detailed..... but won't.

 >Modern painting programs or photo retouching programs allow you
 >to adjust brightness, contrast and 'gamma'.

 >Has nothing to do with nuclear gamma radiation!


Bruce and Roy,

Thanks, I learned something here. I'm not in video or film. I
thought it highly unlikely that gamma radiation would be emitted
in that conundrum called the Phoenix lights. Since Jim D.at
Village Labs was the source, I'd like to get some feedback
regarding him.

Some time back Kal Korff made allegations regarding Jim D's
education and video analysis claims. I'd like to know what
others in the same area (Bruce, Jeff Saino, etc.) feel regarding
those issues. Does Jim D. know what he is talking about in that
field? Or is he emitting hot air? Was Kal Korff? I know some
folks think Kal Korff is nothing but hot air but I am just
asking about the above.

Personally, I'd like to see Billy Meier and Kal Korff (with one
arm tied behind his back) go at it in the ring live on WCW on
TV. Would Semjase jump into the ring also? What female could Kal
call on? Does Phil Klass have a wife or girlfriend as backup? I
know my humor is wild but some people in ufology act to each
other like they should take it out on WCW. Think of the
entertaining tag team matches that could take place.

The current hot ticket is Stan Freeman vs. Ed Stewart. Use your
imagination to think of all the other ossible matches. We could
hold the match live from the National Archives. The possible
matches. We could hold the match live from the National
Archives. The home arena will be in Rachel, NV of course - all
training of wrestlers at Area 51, where no cameras are allowed.
Saucer, triangle, cigar, and spherical shaped wrestling rings.

I am offering Gripple the first chance at major sponsorship in
my proposal. How about it, Jim? Think of the revenue from
commercials. Who would be man enough to take on Bob Lazar and
Gene Huff together? Or the wacko category that would include
folks like Frank Stranges, Sean Morton, all the many poseurs.
That category is definitely WCW late night material. So are the
Nordics vs. the Reptilians. No abductees vs. aliens, that would
not be healthy. <G>

I could make enough revenue to have a civilian mission to place
a wedding ,honeymoon, and just plain gettin' it on hotel station
in permanent orbit around asteroid Eros. Commercial flights on
love shuttles. Great business, especially with casinos.

Happy Trails,

Josh










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                  Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 01:36:20 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:33:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?


 >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:13:23 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:54:37 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: James Bouck <JGBOUCK@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>After looking at the many responses to this inquiry, I think a
 >>great many ideas were suggested that are excellent reading.

 >>Unfortunately, and I am going to have to go against the
 >>suggestions of many but I personally feel that abduction books
 >>should be discouraged.

 >>I'm sure many will disagree with me, but it is hard enough to
 >>talk to a possible abductee and accept everything mentioned
 >>after learning that the person is very well read in abductions.

 >>UFOs can be investigated for verification of what might be out
 >>there, but abductions take more time and effort. By giving them
 >>knowledge that might influence them in the future can hinder the
 >>search for truth and accuracy.

 ><snip>

 >Hi James.

 >We are experiencing an explosion of information which is freely
 >and readily available to students here in Canada. Even if
 >someone does not read, he/she is already influenced in what the
 >"truth" is from friends, teachers, etc. and of course through
 >other media. Curiousity should not be discouraged and neither
 >should investigation into such things as UFO abductions just
 >because of possible influence or contamination.

 >On Valentine's Day I was given a book bought for me by a grade
 >four student which is only available for distribution through
 >the school market. The book's title was 'Alien Abduction? The
 >Evidence and the Arguments'. It is beautifully illustrated in
 >colour and the UFO abduction cases mentioned includes, Betty and
 >Barney Hill, Travis Walton and Linda Cortile.


Nick, your post brings an interesting thought to mind. Years ago
my UFO group and I used to present public UFO forums as a day
program, mostly to adults. If anyone wants to do something very
worthwhile and fascinating, giving classes or a lecture to
school children would be a great way to use some knowledge and
enthusiasm of this phenomenon. I have other commitments but it
could sure help build the next generation of folks with a
serious interest in the subject.

Since a book seems to be in a school book market, to gain a
little monetary reward for such an endeavor may be possible.
Proposals to school districts may bring paid classes or seminars
to those interested. Perhaps curriculum could be developed.
Perhaps districts are too short on money to pay anyone.

Some time back I proposed to my university to go after my
masters in social psychology with this subject. My goal was to
be able to teach the UFO phenomen as a university elective. But
no faculty member was willing to sponsor me. Later I heard of
some folks who did get advanced degrees in this field.

Josh









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   Feb > Feb 18

                             Re: Phoenix Lights

From: Patrick Bailey <pgb@padrak.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:33:54 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:49:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights


 >Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:16:58 -0500
 >From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 03:20:07 +0000
 >>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:24:50 +0100
 >>>>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Well Roy, now I am really confused. What do you mean "Gamma was
 >>>>found to be included in the makeup of these lights"? Exactly
 >>>>what do you mean? Was Gamma radiation found to be included in
 >>>>the spectrum of some of the Phoenix lights? If so, how was it
 >>>>measured?

 >>Hi Josh & All,

 >>Yes I should have been a bit clearer. This was revealed on a
 >>tape I watched not so long ago from Village Labs Arizona Jim
 >>Diletoso.

 >>It was found that Gamma had something to do with the lights
 >>under analysis, this ruled out army flares and such.

 >>I will dig the video out and post the title. But I think if this
 >>is the case then it must widen the case somewhat?

 >Gamma is defined as the degree of contrast of a developed
 >photographic image or of a television image.


Hey Guys: Forget about the 'Lights'. What about the
'Triangle(s)'?

I repost this here for you all:

--- ----- -------

Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:43:14 -0700
To: iufo@world.std.com
From: pgb@padrak.com (Patrick Bailey)
Subject: IUFO: Re: The "Phoenix Lights" ufo update


-> IUFO  Mailing List

 >In Federal Court, in downtown Phoenix, a standing room only
 >crowd witnessed a bizzare addendum to the so-called Phoenix
 >Lights UFO phenomena a couple years back.

Hey! -->>

I remind you all that the "Phoenix Lights" that were seen - you
know, those lots of lights that kind-of were placed in a
hroizontal line, that actually had the same shape as the
mountain skyline in the background -

had _nothing_ to do with the UFO sightings

that were previously seen by lots of people and documented by at
least 4 credible witnesses -

who _all_ described a (or more than one) very _large_ floating
triangle that hovered and _stopped_ over Pheonix, and slowly
drifted from North to South.

Peter Davenport has all this info on his website at

The National UFO Reporting Center, at:

http://www.nwlink.com/~ufocntr/

So - forget about the 'Lights'.  Period.

IMHO, those were just special flares used by the military,
probably under 'Project Snowbird' by the USAF to provide a
convenient explanation after the fact...

The triangular UFO(s) reported were _very_ large, and similar if
not the same to those seen in the Hudson Valley (NY) sightings
in the mid and late 1980s.

One difference is that the one(s) in Phoenix were said by
several, different, un-related witnesses to be at _least_ over a
mile in length.

They were also tracked by radar from the airport, and two jets
did fly-bys, and one pilot's story has been documented.  Peter
Davenport has givn great talks about this event.  One videotape
is available from the International UFO Congress at:

http://www.ufocongress.com

  - or email Peter.

Stay on track with the _Truth_.

Do not get 'snowed'!


Your choice...

PB.

--- ----- -------










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   Feb > Feb 19

                       Re: Roswell Items Sent to NASA

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:42:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:01:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Roswell Items Sent to NASA


 >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:42:52 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >Subject: Re: Roswell Items Sent to NASA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:09:15 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com>
 >>Subject: Roswell Items Sent to NASA
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Greetings list -

 >>From: http://www.abqjournal.com/news/5news02-16-00.htm

 >>Roswell Items Sent to NASA
 >>Wednesday, February 16, 2000
 >>The Associated Press

 ><snip>

 >>Space Center representatives came to Roswell about a month ago,
 >>along with marketing experts, to look over potential items to be
 >>included in an exhibit on the impact of UFOs on popular culture,
 >>Wolkwitz said.

 >>"They said it's the first time that NASA has ever given
 >>permission for them to display anything on UFOs or aliens," she
 >>said. "But they feel that it has so saturated pop culture and
 >>that it's so much a part of the movie and TV industry that they
 >>felt it was time they addressed it and showed how we view aliens
 >>as a culture."

 >>The exhibit opens at the Space Center in March and ends in
 >>mid-May.

 ><snip>

Hi Nick, hi All,

Nick wrote:

 >Hi everyone.

 >Could this be NASA's subtle way of telling us that UFOs are
 >extraterrestrial spacecraft?

Not if you listen to NASA 'mouthpeice' Charles Oberg. The 'song'
NASA always plays for the public is; The day they find proof of
extraterestrial life they will trumpet it to the public and use
it to gain increased funding from Congress. I don't suspect that
this exhibit is going to represent a radical change from their
estabished policy (and party line) on 'UFOs.'

 >In addition to the items from
 >Roswell, I wonder what other things NASA plans to include in its
 >UFO exhibit.

Probably nothing of any significance Nick. If they got their
mits on 'substantial evidence' they'd call a press conference.
It doesn't make sense that they would 'spring' such a thing on
the general public at the opening of an exhibit.

 >NASA could displayed something like the obviously fake large
 >Martian rock embedded with manufactured E.T. hardware which was
 >on display at "Spaceport Toronto" at the base of the CN Tower
 >many years ago but they may also take this opportunity to throw
 >in some real E.T. hardware too, if they have any.

The guys to ask for "ET hardware" is the NSA, or the ONI, or any
number of other -military- groups. NASA has been in bed with the
US military for years now. When Congressional funds started to
dry up, I'm sure the military was happy to lend a hand in
exchange for more access to NASA resources and projects. Don't
for a second fool yourself into thinking that NASA is the
"public agency" it may have once been. The military
establishment is so entrenched at NASA that there is little
doubt 'who' really pulls the strings over there. Any other
assumption would be naive.

Regards,

John Velez








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                             Re: Phoneix Lights

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:35:45 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 08:35:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights


 >Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 01:10:25 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:31:50 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 03:20:07 +0000
 >>>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:24:50 +0100
 >>>>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Phoneix Lights
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Well Roy, now I am really confused. What do you mean "Gamma was
 >>>>found to be included in the makeup of these lights"? Exactly
 >>>>what do you mean? Was Gamma radiation found to be included in
 >>>>the spectrum of some of the Phoenix lights? If so, how was it
 >>>>measured?

 >>I think he means "gamma", as applied to film or nowadays to
 >>video.

<snip>

 >Bruce and Roy,

 >Thanks, I learned something here. I'm not in video or film. I
 >thought it highly unlikely that gamma radiation would be emitted
 >in that conundrum called the Phoenix lights. Since Jim D.at
 >Village Labs was the source, I'd like to get some feedback
 >regarding him.

 >Some time back Kal Korff made allegations regarding Jim D's
 >education and video analysis claims. I'd like to know what
 >others in the same area (Bruce, Jeff Saino, etc.) feel regarding
 >those issues. Does Jim D. know what he is talking about in that
 >field? Or is he emitting hot air? Was Kal Korff? I know some
 >folks think Kal Korff is nothing but hot air but I am just
 >asking about the above.

 >Personally, I'd like to see Billy Meier and Kal Korff (with one
 >arm tied behind his back) go at it in the ring live on WCW on
 >TV. Would Semjase jump into the ring also? What female could Kal
 >call on? Does Phil Klass have a wife or girlfriend as backup? I
 >know my humor is wild but some people in ufology act to each
 >other like they should take it out on WCW. Think of the
 >entertaining tag team matches that could take place.

 >The current hot ticket is Stan Freeman vs. Ed Stewart. Use your
 >imagination to think of all the other ossible matches. We could
 >hold the match live from the National Archives. The possible
 >matches. We could hold the match live from the National
 >Archives. The home arena will be in Rachel, NV of course - all
 >training of wrestlers at Area 51, where no cameras are allowed.
 >Saucer, triangle, cigar, and spherical shaped wrestling rings.

 >I am offering Gripple the first chance at major sponsorship in
 >my proposal. How about it, Jim? Think of the revenue from
 >commercials. Who would be man enough to take on Bob Lazar and
 >Gene Huff together? Or the wacko category that would include
 >folks like Frank Stranges, Sean Morton, all the many poseurs.
 >That category is definitely WCW late night material. So are the
 >Nordics vs. the Reptilians. No abductees vs. aliens, that would
 >not be healthy. <G>

 >I could make enough revenue to have a civilian mission to place
 >a wedding ,honeymoon, and just plain gettin' it on hotel station
 >in permanent orbit around asteroid Eros. Commercial flights on
 >love shuttles. Great business, especially with casinos.



Hello, all

My earlier, pathetic attempt at 'umor failed to materialzise,
(and getting whacked by Dr. Maccabee didn't help, either,) I'd
fomulated an Idea to be a target of ridicle to prove a point-oh
well.

Any way, Josh's "Celebrity UFO  Matches" have merit. Art Bell
versus Phil Klass  has my vote (and maybe pay for the honeymoon
suite - because I'd bet on both of them.) -saucer shaped only
(no corners so Klass couldn't pull his "rope a dope" technique
and Bell couldn't have a corner to go to (although he does have
his lovley pardner Linda M. Howe to come to his aid) - enough,
I'm being bad already.

But, the mind boggles.

GT McCoy









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                  Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:52:26 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 08:42:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?


 >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:44:30 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:54:37 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: James Bouck <JGBOUCK@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>After looking at the many responses to this inquiry, I think a
 >>great many ideas were suggested that are excellent reading.

<snip>

 >Sounds a little like, "Tell them about UFOs but not about
 >abduction because it might confuse researchers even more, into
 >not believing the professed abductee."  Shall we keep it all a
 >secret and tell only the researchers, MUFON or the NSA about our
 >experiences, but never anyone else who seeks information about
 >the phenom?

 >Sounds like censorship to me.  This information is available in
 >any bookstore.  You seem to be saying that perceived (possible)
 >abductees may be taking from the available information pool and
 >applying the information to their own perceived experiences.  We
 >may trust the UFO sighting witness more than the abduction
 >witness and the researcher's job is then made that much easier.
 >Why complicate the job of research by adding another element of
 >complexity?

 >To my mind, you may be indicting those who claim abduction
 >experiences with a marked propensity to lying than may be
 >appropriate.
 >
 >How many abductees who have appeared on this venue, claimed
 >to have had their "awakening" if that word may be used, just by
 >looking at the picture on the cover of "Communion."  Does this
 >mean these people are lying, if even unintentionally, to us or
 >themselves?

 >Cheeses, Jim.  Your statement is, in my view, silly.  Many, many
 >perceived abductees have known of their own lot in life since
 >before book stores started displaying the work of ... the
 >dreaded "R" word. (Researchers).  When people such as Strieber
 >happen to be authors _and_ experiencers, if not authors,
 >experiencers and researchers, display their wares in bookstores,
 >we run the risk of wannabees mucking up the database by their
 >taking truth and applying it to their own experiences, when
 >indeed, they are not reporting the truth.

 >I can point you to some folks who remember events before
 >Roswell. If you are correct, then I may be responsible for all
 >those who have gone after me.

 >Nah.  I never told anyone except me mommy and daddy.

 >>I'm not all that experienced dealing with abductees but I have
 >>worked with a few and they have read most of the books out
 >>there.

<snip>

Dear Jim, James at others:

If I can stick my foot in my mouth here, maybe the suggestion
was to _defer_ the abduction scene (to a younger audience at
least) until the basics are covered.

Think of a beginning music student.

They get scales, scales and more scales, until they can play
tonic to tonic in any key, half asleep.

Only _then_ do they start learning something with more "pizzazz"
(or Gripple-geist), and that's how I think it should be.

Rather than " censoring " the abduction scene, I think it is
proper to start with the more basic and less controversial
facts, among them that there are things in our skies that just
should not be there.

I could make comparisons in any study. Take Physics. Do we start
the kids off arguing whether the various neutrinos have some
tiny mass or not? Heck no,  and not just because there is some
controversy... Its because that stuff is upper division.
Instead, the kids venture timidly into Newton's marvelously
useful theories.

Art students start off with still-lifes.  Math starts with
arithmetic.

I don't think Abductions fit well into Ufology 1A. I'm not
saying they belong in psychoanalysis 223 either, but I think I
made my point.

Please excuse me while I crack open another expensive German
bier, and best wishes to all, even wine-bibbing abductees.

- Larry Hatch








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                           Re: My Lunch with MJ12

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:55:50 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 08:50:28 -0500
Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12


 >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:28:38 -0500
 >From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net>
 >Subject: My Lunch with MJ12
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Hi,

 >I will name my source SARGON. SARGON was a contractor briefed
 >into the MJ12 organization. SARGON has now been out both
 >organizations for a year. The summary of our lunch conversation
 >is:


Dear Bob:

Your put-on above is quite funny!

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









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                        Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 03:32:47 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 09:00:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000


 >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:34:48 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2096 09:05:07 -0600
 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 >>I guess my special insight is that science, not religion, is
 >>more likely to represent a productive approach to the unraveling
 >>of the UFO problem.  If, as George suggests, we have to abandon
 >>science and embrace a literalist biblical supernaturalism to
 >>discuss UFOs and extraterrestrial life meaningfully, then I am
 >>in the wrong field and all those seemingly mindless, uninformed
 >>critics who dismiss ufology as a religion turn out to have been
 >>right, after all.

 >Hi Jerry.

 >The way I see it, when trying to understand or study something
 >such as UFOs, we must make a conscious effort to set aside our
 >personal biases or beliefs. This way we are more likely to gain
 >new knowledge or understanding of something which has remained a
 >mystery to us for so long because it did not fit into the way we
 >thought the universe should work.

 >The supernatural only exists because we insist on holding on to
 >our current ways of thinking. If we set out to be truly
 >scientific, then we would find that many things we now call
 >supernatural are just part of the true natural world, the one
 >that we are still learning about. Remember that modern science
 >is only a few decades older than ufology and it is still
 >changing.

 >We should not be afraid where truth will ultimately take us,
 >even if the truth leads us to areas not to our liking. What if
 >at the end of the day we discover that UFOs are something like a
 >projection from a multidimensional universe or a spiritual
 >cosmos?  Do you simply leave this field of study, as you imply
 >in your e-mail, or do you become "religious" like George and I.


Dear Nick:

I think that you present a good balanced view, at least with
regard to the supernatural.

I might reword your second paragraph above differently
however...


Where you said:

The supernatural only exists because we insist on holding on to
our current ways of thinking..."

I would have said:

"The supernatural; only exists in the minds of those who cannot
come to terms with the natural..."

Otherwise, I resume my search for the lost beer-bottle opener.

Best wishes:


- Larry Hatch

It might be behind the fridge. Its amazing the things that hide
under and behind the fridge.


- - - - - - - -








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                            Alfred's Odd Ode #339

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 05:14:44 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 09:03:17 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #339


Apology to MW #339 (For February 19, 2000)

Most have agendas, would do as they will, and will give of
themselves if they like bitter pills, but some hear a drum in
the distance of time and would march to the beat of that far
away rhyme. I'm hearing the rhythms of sad tortured souls (too
many by far on cruel rocks and harsh shoals), bashed by our
cowardice, dashed on its stones, smashed to oblivion --
rejected, alone.

They say they're abducted, by *persons* unknown, and invaded,
dissected, abused they disclose, but treated with ridicule, and
dismissed as "fringe stuff" they're shoved to the rear, so they
don't get enough. "Enough of what, pray?" -- the 'Bunkie will
sneer, as it wallows in ignorance and fondles its fear. Why,
enough of concern, and a lack of contempt that is much too
reflexive, and lacking in sense!

There's too many people affected by this to casually dismiss
with a wave and a kiss, but that is the mindset of mainstreams,
who try, to minimize thinking on threats to our lives. They DO
the same thing with the other big issues -- the rape of our
planet . . .that we don't fill our shoes. You DON'T cop to truth
plainly glaring disgust; It's plain (as a nose!) you're abusing
the trust.

Quality people have pondered the question, suggesting invasion
(!) or strange infestation (!!), but mainstreams will wallow the
party-line creep, and would lull us with lullabies -- felonious
sleep. Researchers, debunkers, and skeptics agree to opinions
they have that they're comfy with, see -- grasping at straw, or
whatever they'd find, to prop up small egos so bound and
confined.

I know folks myself, and they're salt of the Earth, community
pillars for what THAT is worth, but others demean them with
judgement and label, dismissing them quickly as fiction or
fable. They've nothing to gain, but so MUCH to lose, they're
harried and tortured, abused and confused; ignored and dismissed
or rejected, they fear . . . that they're crazy (or worse!), and
what's worse is right here!

And YES (!) they're a symbol of where we're amiss, where WE lack
control of our destiny missed; where WE would avoid this GREAT
chanceto show courage -- to wallow in ignorance, misled and
discouraged! They are a portrait of where we're confined; they
are a symbol of terror contrived when we eschew bravery to spit
in the eye of whatever confines us for reasons despised!

"We're not alone (!)", say the millions of persons in studies
conducted or in polls that we've had. "We're not alone (!)," say
the suffering people affected by terror -- who are feeling so
bad. "We're not alone (!)", is the message of history. "We're
not alone (!)", as the evidence says! "We're not alone (!)", but
embracing our cowardice -- pretending a solitude that we shan't
possess.

Something's occurring  that hides in the shadows; something's
occurring that they won't admit. Something's occurring that
opens the floodgates for interesting futures, and we're not
equipped. *Something* is touching, just, too many lives -- I
know some myself, and they're wrongly despised. They're WRONGLY
mistrusted, and WRONGLY suspected. Their telling a truth as they
see it! Respect it!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

...Takes GUTS to stare this anomalously glaring beast into its
furtive and misshapen little eyes. Seems Nurse Hargrove has a
significant ration of the aforementioned.

Restore John Ford.

--
~~~~
EXPLORE Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL.
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/
                  **<Updated 19 February>**
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/witches/237/lehmberg.html

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got theirs) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at the
fundamentalist's stake.








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                  Re: Reading List for High School Seniors

From: Beverly Trout <btufo@netins.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 06:17:21 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 09:09:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Reading List for High School Seniors


 >Date:  Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:54:37 -500(EST)
 >From: James Bouck <JGBOUCK@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Reading List for HighSchool Seniors
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Unfortunately, and I am going to have to go against the
 >suggestions of many but I personally feel that abduction >books
should be discouraged.

I've spoken to high school classes about the many aspects of
UFOs, and when I hit - in a general, non-detailed way - on the
subject of encounters, the students want to follow through for
more details. I'd rather recommend good research/reading than
leave them to the _confusing_ dramatized half-truths of X-Files,
Star Trek, etc. - none of which I'm interested in.  (One student
who the teacher assured me is a "great kid" approached me
following class and very quietly shared his own _confusing_
experience - missing lunch in order to do so.)

So whether I'm speaking to high school students or to the adult
_general_public_, I'm going to recommend what I consider to be
substantive reading (yes, that's a judgement call) on
alien-human interaction/abduction.  As an investigator into this
phenomenon - as well as into the various other aspects of the
UFO enigma - I have no desire to leave _anyone_ twisting in the
wind of their own ignorance about alien abduction.  Having been
out there twisting in that wind myself gives me the the right to
say that _it_is _no_fun_.

Certainly, I as an investigator am constantly assessing the
credibility of any witness/experiencer, having even doubted my
own credibility at times until conscious encounters presented
themselves.

To leave those who've had confusing experiences ignorant of what
others are experiencing, is to add to their pain.  To leave
those who are non-abductees ignorant, is to add, of course... to
their ignorance... and to the un-reality that many humans now
cling to.

I never hesitate to recommend David Jacobs' 'Secret Life' and
Budd Hopkins 'Missing Time' and 'Intruders'.  Such reading can
benefit both abductees and non-abductees. Another good beginning
for high schoolers would be Travis Walton's 'Fire In The Sky'.

Getting a grip on reality means that we need to know as much
about it as possible.


Bev Trout
Iowa MUFON State Director








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                        Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 09:12:45 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 10:37:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000


 >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:34:48 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2096 09:05:07 -0600
 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000

 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>I guess my special insight is that science, not religion, is
 >>more likely to represent a productive approach to the unraveling
 >>of the UFO problem.  If, as George suggests, we have to abandon
 >>science and embrace a literalist biblical supernaturalism to
 >>discuss UFOs and extraterrestrial life meaningfully, then I am
 >>in the wrong field and all those seemingly mindless, uninformed
 >>critics who dismiss ufology as a religion turn out to have been
 >>right, after all.

 >The way I see it, when trying to understand or study something
 >such as UFOs, we must make a conscious effort to set aside our
 >personal biases or beliefs. This way we are more likely to gain
 >new knowledge or understanding of something which has remained a
 >mystery to us for so long because it did not fit into the way we
 >thought the universe should work.

My word, Nick.  I think you're reading a whole lot into the
modest statement I made (and by which I stand): that creationism
and other supernaturalist (i.e., magical) thinking do not belong
in serious discussions about the UFO phenomenon and its possible
relationship to extraterrestrial life.  That is not the same, of
course, as saying that therefore we know everything. Happily,
it's not as if we had to choose between a literal reading of
Genesis and an equally indefensible insistence that nature and
the universe have already yielded all their secrets to us.

Anyone interested in a relatively succinct statement of what, in
my judgment, we know and do not know about subjects of interest
to us here is invited to read the essay that opens my
'Unexplained' (Visible Ink Press, 1999).

Jerry Clark








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                           Re: My Lunch with MJ12

From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 15:26:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:19:53 -0500
Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12


 >Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:55:50 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >>Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:28:38 -0500
 >>From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net>
 >>Subject: My Lunch with MJ12
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Dear Bob:

 >Your put-on above is quite funny!


Hi Larry,

I assure it is not a put-on.


Best Regards,

Bob Huff

"Given a choice between two theories, take the one which is funnier."

--






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                           Re: My Lunch with MJ12

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:51:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:16:56 -0500
Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12


 >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:28:38 -0500
 >From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net>
 >Subject: My Lunch with MJ12
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Hi,

 >I will name my source SARGON. SARGON was a contractor briefed
 >into the MJ12 organization. SARGON has now been out both
 >organizations for a year. The summary of our lunch conversation
 >is:

<snip>


 >Best Regards,  Bob Huff  "Given a choice between two theories,
 >take the one which is funnier."

Hello Bob,

Is this "the funnier theory"? Another story with nothing other
than your words to support it?

Sargon is a good name.

This story reminds me of what Richard Boylan used to say - and
probably still does. It sure sounds funnier than documents
received by anonymous mail and all the challenges they have
created in trying to prove or disprove them.

Bob, by any chance are you related to Gene Huff or Jeff Rense?

Josh









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                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:51:26 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:26:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:52:08 -0400
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:42:28 -0800
 >>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >In short Ed you are making it up. For shame. Your psychic
 >powers were out of whack.

 >Stan Friedman

My apologies to Stanton Friedman. On attempting to verify the
statements I made with the source of the information, it became
apparent that much that I posted related to record group RG341
was misleading to false. I asked for a clarification, which was
promised, but after four days still undelivered. I felt a reply
to Friedman's last message needed to be time sensitive to be of
any value. Thus, my apology to Stanton Friedman and readers of
this mailing list for having posted the first paragraph of my
last message which is not supported by facts.

The remainder of the message which Stanton Friedman ignored in
his response remains relevant to any meaningful discussion of
MJ-12 and its provenance at this time and in the future.
Unfortunately, I will not be available for further discussions
on the UFO subject. I have decided that there isn't anyone in
this field that I really care to associate with any longer,
regardless of what their opinions are on this subject.

Ed Stewart

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
    Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -----







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                             The Reality of MJ12

From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 16:05:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:38:00 -0500
Subject: The Reality of MJ12


Hi,

I stumbled across MJ12 while researching the authenticity of Dan
Sherman's story as recounted in 'Above Black'.

Source #1:
Worked with a Naval R&D group at Ft Meade in the early and
mid-80s. Was inadvertently briefed by MJ12 - he was in mtg he
was not suppose to be at when the briefing started.


MJ12 attributes include:

- a US-led International group with discretionary distribution
   of alien information

- Provides technical support to NSA projects

- Read AF docs from the 50's and 60's describing the debris from
   the Roswell crash

- MJ12 chooses its 'employees'; you cannot apply

- Parts of organization in close proximity to Ft Meade

- Abductions are real

- Aware of near term electromagnetic disruptive Solar events

- May have a mean streak regards inquiring minds


Source #2:
Former contractor  with access to extremely sensitive projects.
See 'Lunch with MJ12'. Corroborated the reality of alien
abductions.

Source #3:
Retired AF network and communications specialist. Helped setup
some aspects of NORAD�s Network Operations Center (NOC). Knew of
MJ12 and NORAD capability to track alien craft.

Source #4:
Met a contractor who worked onsite at NRO HQ in Chantilly, VA.
The individual worked a specific area and held the appropriate
clearances.  When asked if there was a MJ12 the individual
confirmed the existence of the agency but would reveal no more.

Source #5:
A former Navy enlisted man stationed at Ft Meade in the 80's.
Was briefed into MJ12. First to cite that MJ12 is a ongoing NSA
program hidden away in the 'C Group' corroborated by Source #2.
Spoke of the US exploitation of reversed aline technology since
the 50's.

Source #6:
A former cleared auditor for OMB who 1987 visited MJ12 at Ft.
Meade. The individual worked in secure area in the Old Executive
building. Here he read and reviewed many US government programs
related to Extraterrestrials.


Also, I discovered that within the CIA's Directorate of
Intelligence that there is a SCI coded intelligence source named
MAJESTIC. Of course this may or may not be related to MJ12.

I understand the controversy of this matter.

Personally, I am 100% confident of this agency's existence and
mission.


--
Best Regards,
Bob Huff
"Given a choice between two theories, take the one which is funnier."

--







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                           Re: My Lunch with MJ12

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:29:41 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:40:43 -0500
Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12


 >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:28:38 -0500
 >From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net>
 >Subject: My Lunch with MJ12
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >I will name my source SARGON. SARGON was a contractor briefed
 >into the MJ12 organization. SARGON has now been out both
 >organizations for a year. The summary of our lunch conversation
 >is:

 >Best Regards,
 >Bob Huff

Hi Bob, All

Is it me, or when people spout-off like this, it all too often
sounds like 'gospel' and "you'd better not question me about it."?

Now I do not mean to slander you Bob, but can you prove any of
this? And I mean _any_ of it?

I won't hold my breath.

--
    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/








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                  Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:47:14 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 23:34:06 -0500
Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip


 >Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:32:15 -0600
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

Roger,

You wrote:

 >What would be the point, Ed? In the past you have demonstrated
 >again and again and again that when someone does present you
 >with evidence you turn your nose up and claim it to be an
 >"anomaly"; that it means nothing. Why should Theresa waste time
 >trying to convince you to give up your religious beliefs
 >regarding AA?

I've responded to all claims that the AA is a fake. I don't
find your arguments or any of the arguments against the
authenticity of the AA to be convincing. I'm alarmed that the
UFO community has treated the AA footage, Ray and the cameraman
in such a disrespectful manner.  I don't consider my beliefs to
be "religious" and think the scientific and historical evidence
presented by Neil , M. Dennis, Philip, Michael, Bob and many
others more than justifies my support for another look at this
important and wonderful historical document.

Theresa came in to town, top gun, aiming to meet and destroy Ray
at high noon. Ray even sent her the ammunition: she asked for
the video; he kindly sent it to her, free.  Her research on
the footage is said to prove that the AA is simulated. She
needs to defend her work, if she can. Why wouldn't she? It was
important enough at one time for her to spend hours viewing the
footage, frame by frame. She should welcome the opportunity to
show the fruits of her labor to a wider and sympathetic
audience.

 >There may not, in fact, be any "smoking gun" yet
 >that AA is a fake On the other hand, there is a mountain of
 >"evidence" that says that it most certainly is. This evidence
 >has been discussed to the point of exhaustion and, yet, you feel
 >that it means very little.

This is where you and I certainly disagree. I say there is not
one scrap of evidence that this is a hoaxed event. I'm trying
to assemble any and all evidence against the AA. So far: _zero_
evidence. There are some unexplained factors, but _no_ evidence.

If there were any evidence at all, you'd have the "smoking Gun"
sought for so long. But you have nothing, nada, zilch!

The only thing going for you is Ray's refusal to test the film
at Kodak. Since that's all the proof you and others will accept,
we have a standoff. But if the truth of the matter were being
pursued, the community could find other ways to verify the
footage. That's what Neil and M. Dennis have tried to do, but
their observations are being ignored by this list and the UFO
community in general.

 >Why doesn't Ray send her some actual FILM with the alien on it
 >instead of a video copy? After all, the issue is whether or not
 >the original image was created in 1947 and not what grade of
 >video tape it was copied on in 1999. And let's be clear about
 >this; Ray could use some positive feedback on this thing. If
 >the film is real, he has nothing to lose and everything to
 >gain.

Ray sent her what she asked for. Ray does not control the
footage. Volker, who does, doesn't seem to care. We need to
find other ways to verify the footage as either a counterfeit or
real event.

 >With all due respect to Neil's work, it is an interpretation at
 >best. I do find it odd that you consider something so subjective
 >to the eye to be "hard evidence" while issues like the doctor's
 >lack of authenticity, the containment suits, the lack of camera
 >original, a non existent camera man (not to mention Ray's
 >deceptions) to be "anomalies" that don't weigh in on the
 >credibility of AA.

Neil's work isn't "only" interpretive. This photographic
evidence is at the pixel level. Pixels either are or they are
not.

I want others to look at what he has presented on his web pages.
Yes, I do consider his research to be hard evidence and I
believe that Neil is perfectly capable of proving this to anyone
who is willing to take the time to look and talk to him about
it. Tear it apart if you can but if you can't then you should
accept this fact: the AA might not be the hoax many rushed to
judgment.

 > do you make the same demands
 >of Ray regarding proof of AA's authenticity as you do of list
 >members who maintain that it is not authentic?

It should be abundantly clear to you and the list that Ray
doesn't listen to me or cater to my wants or desires. If that
were the case, the footage would have been authenticated long
before this. It is because I know what a dead-end this is that
I've tried to find other means to prove that the footage should
be reconsidered by the UFO community. The reaction of this list
to my imploring shows just how unsuccessful I've been and how
entrenched these unsubstantiated beliefs have become.  Let me
say this one more time:there is no proof that the AA is hoaxed
but there is some hard evidence that Ray and the cameraman are
telling the truth.






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   Feb > Feb 19

                           Re: My Lunch with MJ12

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:08:18 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 23:36:53 -0500
Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12


 >Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:29:41 +0000
 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:28:38 -0500
 >>From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net>
 >>Subject: My Lunch with MJ12
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>I will name my source SARGON. SARGON was a contractor briefed
 >>into the MJ12 organization. SARGON has now been out both
 >>organizations for a year. The summary of our lunch conversation
 >>is:

 >>Best Regards,
 >>Bob Huff

 >Hi Bob, All

 >Is it me, or when people spout-off like this, it all too often
 >sounds like 'gospel' and "you'd better not question me about it."?

 >Now I do not mean to slander you Bob, but can you prove any of
 >this? And I mean _any_ of it?

I have no opinion pro or con on Bob's SARGON and his tale, but
I do have a question for you Sean on how you would handle info
obtained in the same way.

What if someone whose word you trusted told you, on condition of
complete anonymity (perhaps his life was at stake), a tale like
SARGON's?  Someone whose integrity you had no cause to doubt.

What would you do with it?  Sit on it?  Smile to yourself as you
watched the list folk debate endlessly about Roswell debris and
film?

Or would you pass it on as yet another anonymous anecdote from a
"SARGON", hoping that the info might eventually be backed up in
part from other sources, other reports, and maybe lead to some
real answers?  Knowing of course that you weren't in any
position to offer "proof" to anyone, not without putting your
contact in deep muck.

Interesting dilemma.  And one of the reasons this field is so
exhasperating.

-Brian C.








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                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 23:57:24 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 09:45:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:51:26 -0800
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:52:08 -0400
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:42:28 -0800
 >>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>In short Ed you are making it up. For shame. Your psychic
 >>powers were out of whack.


 >My apologies to Stanton Friedman. On attempting to verify the
 >statements I made with the source of the information, it became
 >apparent that much that I posted related to record group RG341
 >was misleading to false. I asked for a clarification, which was
 >promised, but after four days still undelivered. I felt a reply
 >to Friedman's last message needed to be time sensitive to be of
 >any value. Thus, my apology to Stanton Friedman and readers of
 >this mailing list for having posted the first paragraph of my
 >last message which is not supported by facts.

 >The remainder of the message which Stanton Friedman ignored in
 >his response remains relevant to any meaningful discussion of
 >MJ-12 and its provenance at this time and in the future.
 >Unfortunately, I will not be available for further discussions
 >on the UFO subject. I have decided that there isn't anyone in
 >this field that I really care to associate with any longer,
 >regardless of what their opinions are on this subject.

 >Ed Stewart


Yes, I know exactly what you mean Ed. Me neither.

Before doing what many dislike my doing, allow me to say a
truth...

I am about to be extremely and honestly, quite serious. No
kidding around. To give in, or to give up; to take your ball and
run home in tears, is not the proper thing to do. Not even for
Fill Klass. Or for me. You are entitled to be right, wrong, have
opinions, speak out and do whatever EBK will allow to be
published on this, his list.

It's the law. To see anyone do give in, makes me feel terribly
sad. I mean that. Personally, I think you are often all wet. But
who ain't? And personally, I would not allow anyone to mess with
my right to be all those things. Including wet.

Enough of this frivolity of seriousness......

However there is an up side to this scenario. Merely (in the
future) refuse to write, speak or otherwise communicate with
_anyone_ with the following credentials ...

1)  Any degree, especially Ph.D.'s
2)  Especially Ph.D.'s in Physics
3)  Anyone who's work demonstrates
     an extremely high level of research
     and effort over many years
4)  Anyone who has an opinion counter
     to yours
5)  Anyone who's initials begin with Dr.,
     Docca (which may be covered by
     numbers one thru two, above
6)  Anyone who claims to be an experiencer
7)  Anyone who claims
8)  Anyone who doesn't claim but believes
9)  Anyone
10) Anyone else

Having done the complete opposite of the set of above
suggestions myself, I can assure you that you will achieve the
desired result.

Before coming to the part of this post which is expected and
often, even expectorated...

Jim Mortellaro









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   Feb > Feb 20

                  Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 21:14:24 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:02:40 -0500
Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip


 >Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:47:14 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >I've responded to all claims that the AA is a fake. I don't
 >find your arguments or any of the arguments against the
 >authenticity of the AA to be convincing. I'm alarmed that the
 >UFO community has treated the AA footage, Ray and the
 >cameraman in such a disrespectful manner. I don't consider my
 >beliefs to be "religious" and think the scientific and
 >historical evidence presented by Neil, M. Dennis, Philip,
 >Michael, Bob and many  others more than justifies my support
 >for another look at this important and wonderful historical
 >document.

 >Theresa came in to town, top gun, aiming to meet and destroy
 >Ray at high noon. Ray even sent her the ammunition: she asked
 >for the video; he kindly sent it to her, free.  Her research on

Absolutely incorrect, Ed. Theresa did set out to destroy the
video or Ray! Get your facts straight.

 >the footage is said to prove that the AA is simulated. She
 >needs to defend her work, if she can. Why wouldn't she? It was

I don't think she needs to defend her work. Her work is on the
web (sorry, I don't have the URL handy) for anyone to look at.

[Try: http://www.uforeport.com/shadow.html --ebk]

Her still frames and explanations are very clear. What's to
defend. She makes her case. However, you might want to read that
website once again, because, IIRC, she doesn't claim to prove
anything to anyone. She let's her research rest on its own
merits.

 >important enough at one time for her to spend hours viewing the
 >footage, frame by frame. She should welcome the opportunity to
 >show the fruits of her labor to a wider and sympathetic
 >audience.

And she's done just that, Ed. Her work is on the web for a very
wide audience. Theresa, IMO, didn't do this research for anyone
but herself. But she was nice enough to share her research with
anyone who has access to the web. What's to explain?  Why should
she want anything more?

Rebecca
"no response needed"








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                        Re: AA Film - New Information

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 00:32:38 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:12:03 -0500
Subject: Re: AA Film - New Information


 >Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:31:26 +0000
 >From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >Subject: Re: AA Film - New Information
 >To: Ufo Updates List <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Nowhere in those few short feet of film do you see ANY
 >precautions taken other than a gas mask hanging from one of the
 >tent poles

I certainly am not an expert guesser re the AA films, but I have
had a little experience with nuclear precautions. In 1953 I was
a public information officer with Aircraft, Fleet Marine Force,
Pacific. Some of our units were involved in the "Desert Rock"
atomic tests near Las Vegas, NV. It was common then to walk
troops through an area where an atomic blast had just been set
off. While the troops all had a "Roentgen counter" attached to
their uniforms to measure radiation levels and they were
encouraged to take a shower afterward, no one really knew the
long term effects of such radiation exposure. Sadly, nearly all
the men who took part in the tests are dead today. In 1947 our
government had gained little respect for nuclear radiation and
observations of gas masks not being worn during the autopsies
would be very credible.

James Bond Johnson









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                  Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 08:26:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:21:34 -0500
Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip


 >Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:47:14 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Theresa came in to town, top gun, aiming to meet and destroy Ray
 >at high noon. Ray even sent her the ammunition: she asked for
 >the video; he kindly sent it to her, free.  Her research on
 >the footage is said to prove that the AA is simulated. She
 >needs to defend her work, if she can. Why wouldn't she? It was
 >important enough at one time for her to spend hours viewing the
 >footage, frame by frame. She should welcome the opportunity to
 >show the fruits of her labor to a wider and sympathetic
 >audience.

Ed-

Your arguments are repetitive and somewhat tiring. I think we
all understand where you stand on this issue and if you can find
something new to add to that debate, please do.

 From the comment above, it is quite obvious that you aren't
really aware of the history of this matter and Teresa's
involvement.

You seem to come to the conclusion that she was out to prove the
"film" a fraud and gathered her evidence accordingly.

Unfortunately, the facts don't support that contention.

It was as a result of her even-handed investigation that Ray was
encouraged by all, including Bob and Philip, to provide whatever
was necessary to obtain a complete analysis.

She spent more than two years looking at the "film" and didn't
jump to conclusions as many other researchers had done
initially, and yet you seem to think that she was "aiming to
meet and destroy Ray at high noon".

Perhaps you should ask some of the proponents of the "film" for
their opinion on her work and why they believe that it's flawed.
I think you'll find that she's quite well respected among that
(small) crowd.

As far as Neil's work is concerned, I would encourage him to
continue.

However, many of us believe that he is seeing animal shapes in
the clouds (so to speak).

But, to label his work as "proof" of the validity of the
"debris" footage is, IMO, unsupportable.

Steve










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                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Stanton T. Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 09:57:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:24:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:51:26 -0800
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:52:08 -0400
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:42:28 -0800
 >>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>In short Ed you are making it up. For shame. Your psychic
 >>powers were out of whack.


 >My apologies to Stanton Friedman. On attempting to verify the
 >statements I made with the source of the information, it became
 >apparent that much that I posted related to record group RG341
 >was misleading to false. I asked for a clarification, which was
 >promised, but after four days still undelivered. I felt a reply
 >to Friedman's last message needed to be time sensitive to be of
 >any value. Thus, my apology to Stanton Friedman and readers of
 >this mailing list for having posted the first paragraph of my
 >last message which is not supported by facts.

 >The remainder of the message which Stanton Friedman ignored in
 >his response remains relevant to any meaningful discussion of
 >MJ-12 and its provenance at this time and in the future.
 >Unfortunately, I will not be available for further discussions
 >on the UFO subject. I have decided that there isn't anyone in
 >this field that I really care to associate with any longer,
 >regardless of what their opinions are on this subject.

 >Ed Stewart


I accept Ed's apology and offer my sympathy for his apparently
being led down the garden path by somebody providing false
unsubstantiated "information".

Frankly, I am shocked that such apparently strong "research"
proclamations, as his have been, are seemingly based on hearsay
from a source he must have considered reliable.

I wonder who that source might be and why he was targetting
me?

Stan Friedman








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                       Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says

From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:08:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:29:25 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says


 >Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:02:15 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com>
 >Subject: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Greetings list -

 >From: http://www.omaha.com/Omaha/OWH/StoryViewer/1,3153,302040,00.html
 >Michael Kelly: UFOs 'Out There,' Prof Says

 >BY MICHAEL KELLY
 >WORLD-HERALD COLUMNIST

<snip>

 >Another man and woman drove at night on "a remote area of the
 >Interstate" in Omaha when, they say, a flying saucer hovered
 >over the four lanes of highway. The couple looked up in awe, and
 >then it was gone.

 >They continued driving, looked at their watches - and were
 >shocked to see that it was an hour and a half later. They had
 >lost 90 minutes.

 >Under hypnotism in the office of John C. "Jack" Kasher, the
 >woman described being taken into the saucer and seeing people
 >four feet tall with large heads, wraparound eyes and four
 >fingers on each hand. She recounted in a hypnotic state that
 >they told her telepathically: "You will not remember this."

Not meaning to belittle any abductee, but if the aliens know
everything about us and have been watching us, or even walk
among us, they would be familiar with hypnosis, wouldn't they.
To 'telepathize' the words "You will not remember this" and then
the experience be remembered under hypnosis, I find this to be
the one thing that just doesn't add up in abduction reports.

<snip>

 >In America, Kasher said, the government maintains secret files.
 >A court case involving requests for files, he said, resulted in
 >judges at two levels ruling that releasing the information would
 >be detrimental to the national security.

National security revolves around 'threats' and 'secrets'. The
history of man is taught in school. If we are to learn about our
ancestors and neighbours of the universe, and the information is
held from us as a matter of national security, then of course
there is a cover-up, and someone somewhere is up to no good,
thrives on control of the human race, or doesn't think we can
handle the truth. That doesn't necessarily mean it's of
extraterrestrial nature, but it obviously proves there is
something going on, and we'll find out in 50 years.

To walk in the people's shoes who decide all this would be a
living nightmare, unless they're the devil, just plain
despicable, from another world with a plan, or being controlled
by a higher level. Does that mean judges are controlled? Are
they made aware of what is top secret, or just being told it's
top secret and don't go there? What did he/she really base the
decision on? Documents, facts, evidence? Another well planned
and placed loophole in the judicial system in favour of the
keeper of secrets? Another Act, policy, procedure rewritten
based on human enlightenment?

 >"If they wanted to take over the Earth," he said, "they would
 >have done it by this time."

More speculation. Everything is speculation, and perhaps it's
meant to drive the world mad. I hope someone somewhere is having
a good time at everyone else's expense, and if they're not
having a good time, then they're probably living a tortuous
existence that's far beyond our comprehension. Either way I feel
sorry for them.

Some day we'll have closure, and so will they. Then we can all
get on with life and learn to live 'together' through whatever
the future holds for us, without redicule, fear, distrust and
anger. The truth is "always" out there somewhere, isn't it, be
it the truth of a lie, or the truth of the truth? It's one thing
we can count on, besides death and taxes, to always be there,
someday.

Sue









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                       Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says

From: TimHaley@aol.com
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 11:27:54 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 12:55:12 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says


 >Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:08:50 -0500
 >From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:02:15 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com>
 >>Subject: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >Not meaning to belittle any abductee, but if the aliens know
 >everything about us and have been watching us, or even walk
 >among us, they would be familiar with hypnosis, wouldn't they.
 >To 'telepathize' the words "You will not remember this" and then
 >the experience be remembered under hypnosis, I find this to be
 >the one thing that just doesn't add up in abduction reports.


It is apparent in most abductee situations that the subject does
_not_ recall the event conciously. Perhaps they (the aliens or
whomever) cannot tamper with the subconcious or choose not to
hoping that some lingering subconcious memory will further thier
agenda. Although it doesn't "add up", it is interesting that
being told "You will not remember this" is a commonly reported
instruction from abductees throughout recent history and from
all over the world. It is quite different from what victims of
abuse are told, "Don't tell anyone"

 >>"If they wanted to take over the Earth," he said, "they would
 >>have done it by this time."

 >More speculation.

<snip>

I think Dr. David Jacobs would agree with you on this one.

 >Some day we'll have closure, and so will they.

Speculation?


Best regards,

Tim Haley








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                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:29:17 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 13:00:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 09:57:33 -0400
 >From: Stanton T. Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:51:26 -0800
 >>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<Snipped Stewart's brave (though thin) retraction>

 >I accept Ed's apology and offer my sympathy for his apparently
 >being led down the garden path by somebody providing false
 >unsubstantiated "information".

 >Frankly, I am shocked that such apparently strong "research"
 >proclamations, as his have been, are seemingly based on hearsay
 >from a source he must have considered reliable.

 >I wonder who that source might be and why he was targetting
 >me?

 >Stan Friedman

... I smell smoke. Could there _not_ be fire?

I can think of many reasons to discredit you personally and so
discredit your position, sir, none of them _good_ reasons.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
--
~~~~
EXPLORE Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL.
http://www.alienview.com
                  **<Updated 19 February>**
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/witches/237/lehmberg.html

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got theirs) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at the
fundamentalist's stake.








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                  Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 12:05:45 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 13:22:31 -0500
Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip


 >From: Ed Gehrman
 >Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:47:14 -0800
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 23:34:06 -0500
 >Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip


 >>Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:32:15 -0600
 >>From: Roger Evans
 >>Subject: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Previously, Ed declared:

 >It should be abundantly clear to you and the list that Ray
 >doesn't listen to me or cater to my wants or desires. If that
 >were the case, the footage would have been authenticated long
 >before this.

Ed, when are you are you _ever_ going to answer a simple
question with a simple answer? The question is NOT how Ray
reacts! The question before you is:

"Do you make demands of Ray for "proof" like you do the members
of this list that disagree with you?"

It appears that you accept anything and everything that Ray has
said and take the stance that everyone else _except_ Ray must
toe the line and prove their claims. I hate to break it to you
but that's not how things work in the real world. Ray made the
initial claim. It is up to him to prove it to be true; not
others to prove it false.

Continuing, you wrote:

 >It is because I know what a dead-end this is [making demands of
 >Ray] that I've tried to find other means to prove that the
 >footage should be reconsidered by the UFO community.

Holy cow!  After all this posturing! Does this mean that you've
never made demands of Ray for proof?

Let's clear the air about this once and for all:

How many times have you contacted Ray and demanded
proof regarding his claims?
Did you take "no" for an answer?
Did you e-mail him with vigorous demands questioning
his lack of evidence?
Did you tell him that you haven't seen "one shred of
evidence" that AA is real and demand an explanation?

Considering how you've reacted to members of this list, I would
consider anything less than the above to be outright favoritism
toward Ray. So how about it, Ed? Tell us what happened when you
leaned on Ray for the truth.

The "truth" is what you're wanting, right?

And, uh...You _did_ lean on him, right?

 >The reaction of this list
 >to my imploring shows just how unsuccessful I've been and how
 >entrenched these unsubstantiated beliefs have become.


Gee, Ed. This "dead-end" certainly hasn't stopped you from
demanding proof from members of this list, now has it? So why
should Ray get a break that we don't? Could it be that your own
personal beliefs regarding the validity of AA as an historical
document skews your need for hard evidence; i.e. you need hard
evidence that refutes AA but not hard evidence in support of it?

 >Let me say this one more time:there is no proof that the AA
is hoaxed but there is some hard evidence that Ray and the
 >cameraman are telling the truth.

Horseshit. (sorry, EBK) There is no evidence that Ray ever told
the truth and there is even less evidence that the cameraman
exists, at all. Speaking of which; how can you judge the honesty
of someone that you've never even met or seen?!! This is the
absolute height of wishful thinking.

This is such a waste of time.....

Roger Evans

[And my time and energy. This is the _last_ on this thread
  until something new transpires - and _no_ Ed, enough is
  enough --ebk








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              An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress

From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 15:58:21 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 05:24:45 -0500
Subject: An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress


An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress


This is to inform you that I am appalled that the International
UFO Congress has invited Jonathan Reed to speak at the 9th
Congress to be held March 5 through March 11, 2000 at the River
Palms Resort in Laughlin, Nevada.

The following allegations from Mr. Reed during his December 9,
1999 interview on the Art Bell show have been investigated:

1.  Mr. Reed claims to have been admitted to graduate school at
UCLA after only spending two years at San Diego State University
where he obtained a Teaching Education Certificate for Secondary
Education  with a GPA of 3.0. UCLA has no record of a Jonathan
Reed obtaining his Ph.D. at that institution.

2.  UMI maintains hard copy and microfilm copy of all Ph.D.
dissertations and does not have Jonathan Reed's alleged UCLA
dissertation on file.

3. Reed claims to have worked during the summer of 1979 with Dr.
Frank Oski at Johns Hopkins University. Dr. Frank Oski did not
arrive at John's Hopkins until 1985.

4. Reed claimed to be a member of the National Psychological
Association. There is no National Psychological Association.

5. Reed claims to have worked at the Department of Psychology at
the University of Washington. Upon checking with the University
of Washington Medical Center, the Department of Psychology and
the Department of Psychiatry, it was confirmed that they have
never had anyone named Jonathan Reed in those departments.

6. Reed claims that a Microbiologist by the name of Chacon has
analyzed samples of recovered biological material from the alien
Reed held in his freezer. Chacon claims to have received his
Master's Degree in Microbiology from the Catholic University of
Puerto Rico. The Catholic University of Puerto Rico does not
offer Master's degrees in Microbiology.

Additionally, there is no evidence to support the claims made by
Jonathan Reed. Unless Mr. Reed can provide any reasonable
corroborating evidence to support his biography and that of his
colleague Chacon, he should be removed from your program. I
would think that the UFO Congress should hold high standards for
their speakers and at a minimum require the speaker's biography
to be validated before issuing an invitation to speak.
Otherwise, your reputation will suffer, you do injustice to the
field of UFOlogy, and you insult the other speakers who have
worked so hard for their reputation.

Timothy A. Haley, Ph.D.
TimHaley@aol.com







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                       Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 16:26:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 05:26:48 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says


 >Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:08:50 -0500
 >From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:02:15 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com>
 >>Subject: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Under hypnotism in the office of John C. "Jack" Kasher, the
 >>woman described being taken into the saucer and seeing people
 >>four feet tall with large heads, wraparound eyes and four
 >>fingers on each hand. She recounted in a hypnotic state that
 >>they told her telepathically: "You will not remember this."

 >Not meaning to belittle any abductee, but if the aliens know
 >everything about us and have been watching us, or even walk
 >among us, they would be familiar with hypnosis, wouldn't they.
 >To 'telepathize' the words "You will not remember this" and then
 >the experience be remembered under hypnosis, I find this to be
 >the one thing that just doesn't add up in abduction reports.

I suppose the next question should revolve around the issue of
why the aliens would continue to abduct people over and over
again if they arleady had been watching us, walked among us, and
already knew just about everything about us.  Several abductees
have indicated that the aliens are now allowing more and more of
them to remember their experiences without the use of hypnosis,
but it may also be significant that they allegedly make mistakes
on a fairly regular basis.  Hopkins and others have recounted
cases where the abductee's clothing was put on inside-out, and I
believe in one case two abductees were put back into the wrong
cars.

 >>In America, Kasher said, the government maintains secret files.
 >>A court case involving requests for files, he said, resulted in
 >>judges at two levels ruling that releasing the information would
 >>be detrimental to the national security.

 >National security revolves around 'threats' and 'secrets'. The
 >history of man is taught in school. If we are to learn about our
 >ancestors and neighbours of the universe, and the information is
 >held from us as a matter of national security, then of course
 >there is a cover-up, and someone somewhere is up to no good,
 >thrives on control of the human race, or doesn't think we can
 >handle the truth. That doesn't necessarily mean it's of
 >extraterrestrial nature, but it obviously proves there is
 >something going on, and we'll find out in 50 years.

I believe that Kasher is referring to the CAUS lawsuit against
the National Security Agency, which indeed involved National
Security issues.  The NSA collects data from a variety of
sources and to disclose the type of data being collected could
lead back to how it had been collected and who might have been
involved.  It operates behind a veil of secrecy that is rarely
breached, and only since the cold war has cooled down has some
of their material become declassified.

As it turns out, the Affidavit that resulted from the CAUS
lawsuit, and was used by Stanton Friedman during his
presentations as an example of non-responsiveness by Federal
agencies, has since become declassified and is now (for the most
part) available for review on the NSA web site (in their E-FOIA
section).

Steve







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                  Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 16:42:18 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 05:29:14 -0500
Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip


 >Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:47:14 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: AA FILM - Another Request From Philip
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >Theresa came in to town, top gun, aiming to meet and destroy Ray
 >at high noon. Ray even sent her the ammunition: she asked for
 >the video; he kindly sent it to her, free. Her research on
 >the footage is said to prove that the AA is simulated. She
 >needs to defend her work, if she can. Why wouldn't she? It was
 >important enough at one time for her to spend hours viewing the
 >footage, frame by frame. She should welcome the opportunity to
 >show the fruits of her labor to a wider and sympathetic
 >audience.

You are speaking from total ignorance.

Theresa and Ray were/are quite good friends, Ed. I know of at
least one occaision when Ray traveled to the US and met Theresa
face-to-face. They spoke on the phone frequently. Ray
volunteered the second generation video for Theresa to review
because even he is not sure of what he bought. AND, that video
did nothing to progress the research.

The best tool for research, IMO, is a CD ROM produced by ROMWARE
GmbH, a German company. I'll make you a copy if you're really
interested. Send me a snail mail address via private email.

Even with Theresa's evidence, the Film remains an enigma.

Warmest Regards,

Terry









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                          Reed Speech At The IUFOC

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 05:48:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 05:48:41 -0500
Subject: Reed Speech At The IUFOC

http://www.sightings.com/ufo6/hrt.htm

Reed Speech At The IUFOC - Another Dagger In Heart Of ufology?

By Michael Goodspeed <gspeed@teleport.com>

http://www.geocities.com/michael_goodspeed/Forbidden_Truth.html

2-21-00


For the past couple of years, a highly-enigmatic and mostly
inaccessible man by the name of "Dr." Jonathan Reed, along
with his faithful cohort Robert Raith, have been regaling the
alternative world with their tale of an ET encounter like no
other.

You see, one fine morning in the woods of Washington state,
Reed had a very unfortunate incident with a visitor from
another world. It all started when he and his dog Suzy were
hiking in the picturesque beauty of the Cascade Mountains
when, suddenly, ET's evil sister jumped out of a bush and
ate poor Suzy!! Dr. Reed responded as would any
red-blooded American - he grabbed a makeshift Lousiville
slugger and brained ET's sister into a bloody coma.

The carcass of the being was then shipped to the refrigerator
in Reed's home, until it later "regenerated" and released itself
on its own recognizance.

Dr. Reed also has a number of photographs of the alien, and
an "obelisk" that was presumably occupied by the creatures
star-trekking pals. He has repeatedly promised to provide
physical evidence of his "encounter," but has never delivered
to anything resembling an independent source.

Normally, when a story as patently absurd as this comes
along, and all photographic and/or physical evidence is
thoroughly debunked, the appropriate response is a
light-hearted chuckle and a shake of the head. One must
keep an open mind to the most extreme possibilities, but we
mustn't open our minds so wide that our brains fall out (like
the poor alien in this case). Prominent members of the UFO
community have always distanced themselves from
fantastical tales that have no supporting evidence. The reason
for this is obvious-hoaxes provide needless ammunition to
debunkers, and muddy the waters for people who seek the
truth. It's hard enough to discern between fact and fiction in
this field without blatant liars receiving endorsements and air
time from popular personalities.

You can imagine, then, why many UFO
investigators/researchers/journalists are expressing their
abject horror over the choice of Reed as keynote speaker at
the 2000 International UFO Conference in Laughlin, Nevada.

Reed and Raith have long been viewed as nothing more than
comic relief by UFO insiders. I have yet to meet a single
respected UFOlogist and/or researcher, investigator or
journalist who thinks otherwise. It's sad that Reed and Raith
have not been challenged on the radio show that has given
them their primary exposure, but many in the UFO
community have been extremely vocal in expressing their
disgust. I challenge anyone to find a SINGLE respected
UFOlogist who finds their story credible.

The photographic evidence offered by Reed has been
shredded in every manner imaginable. Numerous photo
analysts have had a field day discrediting Reed's pictures,
which are campy even by 1950's B-movie standards. Here
are just a few examples:

Steve Neill, Hollywood special effects wizards, from
http://www.angelfire.com/oh/UFOCHALLENGE/page7.html:

"To date, all of the 'Aliens' I've seen both posted on the
internet and in allegedly homemade encounter/contact videos
don't even come close to our current professional/technical
standards. And this latest one (the Reed 'alien') is no
exception....I know rubber when I see it...and I'm seeing
rubber. If they really want to deceive us, they have to try a
lot harder....This 'alien' head appears to be rubber latex with
a rubber cement paint job painted on the outside surface; it
has no depth. The red that appears under the eyelids looks
very much like polyurethane foam that has been tinted red.
We often use that same process to create 'gore' effects. Of
course, it would help a great deal to see the actual tape, but
I'm sure when I do it will only further reinforce my
view....This amateur job, in my opinion, is an obvious
attempt to make money and nothing else. And it scares me to
think how many people might fall for this, and other similar
charades, and spend their hard, honestly-earned money on
people who cannot or will not earn an honorable living."

Royce J. Myers III, from www.sightings.com/ufo/reed.htm:

"Judging from the photo it appears that the camera used was
set to infinity as the background and foreground are in focus,
with the exception of a portion of the bottom of the photo
which appears to be out of focus. I served as a Forest
Protection Officer with the U.S. Forest Service and have
spent a great amount of time out in the wilderness. My point
in this is that the ferns in the background of the photo can
not be more than 2 feet high...how tall is the alleged alien?
This fact provides a reference for the size of the object in the
photo. Quite a small vessel for an alien, wouldn't you
agree?... "...The photo of the UFO looks very suspicious to
me as the edges of the object are jagged and the pixels do not
seem to be a part of the photo at all. There are endless
possibilities here, my guess is that the image has been
digitally manipulated...probably Adobe Photoshop, you can
do anything with this program.... "...It also appears that the
object has a shadowing effect on the underside, yet it casts
no shadow nor does the foliage in the background. Where is
the light source that is causing the shadowing effect on the
object coming from? Another point to remember in looking at
UFO photos is that the great majority of hoaxes seem to have
the UFO at the center of the frame and the lighting perfect.
This is true for this photo as well, it is too perfect. Did the
witness in this incident have enough time to set up a tri-pod
for his camera while he killed the alien? The photos are very
nice and centered for someone who has just gone through
such a tramatic experience. It doesn't take a genius to figure
this one out. You can expect to see fashion models in the
center of a photo, I just tend to believe that UFOs do not
pose for photographers (ala Billie Meier). The object also
appears to have a reflective quality to it, but you do not see
anything resembling a tree or other foliage in the reflection of
the object. This again suggests that the object was not in the
original photo."

Lea H. MacDonald (article from 12-22-98 at
http://www.angelfire.com/oh/UFOCHALLENGE/index1.html
):

"Several days ago I received an email from a fellow
researcher by the name of Royce Myers. He had been kind
enough to attach a logo from the page of a Norio Hayakawa.
He pointed out that the "inset" picture of an object looked
very much like the infamous Reed 'obelisk.' I cut the image
from the logo and pasted it beside the Reed 'black obelisk'
image to do a comparison. Much to my surprise there were
several 'exact matches'...so exact, in fact, I felt compelled to
post the images on my web site. I did this, however, only
after several more hours of very close comparison and
analysis. I drew attention to the identical shadows and a
couple of pixels, not to mention the exact proportion
duplication of the two 'obelisks.' Within a day of the posting
of the obelisk comparison, I received an email from an the
"designer" telling me to "REMOVE PICTURES
IMMEDIATELY!" He claimed: Not only was it (the
'obelisk') a cropping of artwork "he made" for Norio, but it
had absolutely nothing to do with the Reed alien hoax
whatsoever. The "designer" went on to say, the logo was on
Norio's site for about a week and then people started
emailing him about this Reed hoax of which he did not want
anything to do with, and added, in his honest opinion he felt
it was a hoax as well. He ended up by admitting, he did
design it to look similar on purpose to see if anyone would
respond - to show people how easy it is to hoax a graphic.
Little did he know it would receive such a response."


So, just what, exactly, are the organizers of the IUFOC
thinking? Are they not aware of the enormous harm their
"endorsement" of Reed will do to themselves, and ufology
as a whole? Those of you who see the study of UFO's as a
mindless form of entertainment in the same ilk as
professioinal wrestling might not object to Reed's mercenary
attempt to make money; in the age of TV shows like "Who
Wants to Marry a Millionaire," selling one's dignity for a
quick buck has become an acceptable social more. People
like Reed have gotten away with selling snake oil since the
beginning of time. But we have come to expect and
DEMAND more at the annual IUFOC.

In a recent article on the damage inflicted on ufology by
misinsformatioon and/or disinformation, I wrote:

"The past 50 years have proven demonstrably that the
greatest enemy of ufology is the deliberate hoax. It's a
diffcult enough task for genuine researchers to compete
against the rigid mind-set of "mainstream" science and the
popular media without having to constantly explain,
rationalize, and apologize for public hoaxes. The frauds
perpetrated by people like Ed Walters, Billy Meier(?), Bob
Lazar, Courtney Brown, Jonathan Reed, Richard Hoagland
and others have provided tremendous ammunition to
debunkers who are intent on destroying ufology. People
like Reed ride on the coattails of great researchers who gave
everything of themselves in pursuit of the truth. Names like
Jacques Vallee, Dr. J. Allen Hyneck, and Stanton Friedman
come immediately to mind. The air time... given to (these)
shameful hucksters is a grotesque insult to past UFOlogists,
and only serves to diminish their research."

I went on to write that in the modern era of
ufology... "geunine truth-seekers must ...sift through an
increasingly large pile of dung in order to find a granule of
truth. Somewhere, James Randi and Philip Klass are laughing
their heads off."

Reed's successful infiltration of ufology is raising serious
questions about who the good guys are...and who might not
be what they seem to be. In the past, the IUFOC has mostly
featured the most credible, reputed figures in the alternative
world. It's almost impossible to believe that the judgment of
the event's organizers has become so lax, or their desire to
sensationalize so great, that they would risk discrediting
themselves by associating with this guy. Is their another
agenda at work here, one that all serious UFOlogists should
be wary of? Even the most well-intentioned researchers are
occasionally hoodwinked by pre-packaged disinformation,
and when people like the IUFOC organizers show no
discrimination in who they endorse, the already exasperating
task of discerning truth from fiction and knowing who trust
becomes nearly impossible.

The Reed story should be viewed in the same vane as a
TV-show like "Dark Skies," an abominable series that was
axed by NBC a dozen episodes into its first season. The sole
purpose of "Skies" was seemingly to make the ET
phenomena look so unappealing and implausible that only a
moron or luatic would have any interest in it. I worry greatly
that members of the general public will have a similar
response to media coverage of this year's IUFOC. If
ufology is ever going to be recognized as the legitimate
study of a genuine phenomena, then its most influential
members will have to start displaying a modicum of rational
judgment.


ALL COMMENTS ARE WELCOME

speed@teleport.com








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                              Kelly's New Site

From: Kelly McGillis <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 19:25:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 05:53:47 -0500
Subject: Kelly's New Site

Hi List!

I have a question - well, a couple of them.  Some guy sometimes
sends me emails and I am designated as 09.  He's a UFO guy.  Why
am I on his list?  Like I notice Bev has cc'd 02.  Who is O2?

Is it like Seven of Nine on Voyageur?  You know that woman with
the incredible body and purple outfits who was a Borg for 18
years?

[Actually, Mr Erkmen is more like the ping-pong playing Turk in
  the red Speedo on The Late Show with David Letterman. He
  insisted on sending fractured English, info useless excerpts
  from his website for posting to the list. Got miffed when I
  wouldn't post them and unfortunately, started sending stuff to
  various subscribers to UpDates. If he gets to be a pain in the
  patoot set a filter to direct his stuff to 'Trash' --ebk]

Anyway, the other news is that I have my own homepage now and I
want to add a page about UFOs so I have been avidly reading the
recommened reading list thread but what I am lacking are great
URLs that I can put in as links.  I am determined that my UFO
page will be enthralling! Hey!  If you had one question you
could ask an alien or ET being, what would it be?

My first question would be:  Smoking or Non-Smoking?

That surely tells a lot about a person!

So send me all your URLs and links!

Yours devoted in eternity, etc.

Kelly

P.S Thanks Errol!  What a wonderful Human Being you are! Oh!  Here is my
homepage address:

http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RomanceRd/kellykiss/

PSS - I just had to delete the cc 02 thing Bev!  My server said it
didn't exist.  This number mystery is confounding me.







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                           Re: My Lunch with MJ12

From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 19:21:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 05:56:25 -0500
Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12


 >Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:08:18 -0600 (CST)
 >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
 >Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:29:41 +0000
 >>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:28:38 -0500
 >>>From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net>
 >>>Subject: My Lunch with MJ12
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>I will name my source SARGON. SARGON was a contractor briefed
 >>>into the MJ12 organization. SARGON has now been out both
 >>>organizations for a year. The summary of our lunch conversation
 >>>is:

 >>>Best Regards,
 >>>Bob Huff

 >>Hi Bob, All

 >>Is it me, or when people spout-off like this, it all too often
 >>sounds like 'gospel' and "you'd better not question me about it."?

 >>Now I do not mean to slander you Bob, but can you prove any of
 >>this? And I mean _any_ of it?

 >I have no opinion pro or con on Bob's SARGON and his tale, but
 >I do have a question for you Sean on how you would handle info
 >obtained in the same way.

 >What if someone whose word you trusted told you, on condition of
 >complete anonymity (perhaps his life was at stake), a tale like
 >SARGON's?  Someone whose integrity you had no cause to doubt.

 >What would you do with it?  Sit on it?  Smile to yourself as you
 >watched the list folk debate endlessly about Roswell debris and
 >film?

 >Or would you pass it on as yet another anonymous anecdote from a
 >"SARGON", hoping that the info might eventually be backed up in
 >part from other sources, other reports, and maybe lead to some
 >real answers?  Knowing of course that you weren't in any
 >position to offer "proof" to anyone, not without putting your
 >contact in deep muck.

 >Interesting dilemma.  And one of the reasons this field is so
 >exhasperating.

Hi Brian,

Well stated - at least from my perspective. :-)

Maybe my background can help place my lunch and sources within
context.

I have lived in Northern Virginia for almost 20 yeas and
Northern VA is at the confluence of these event and agencies. In
those 20 years I have established many contacts with the
military and intelligence committees. Because I have worked with
advance technologies and being a West Point graduate, I have had
some 'paved' entrees to people who have been directly involved
in the Government's UFO program.

I have no physical evidence of MJ12's existence just enough
antidotal evidence to prove to my satisfaction the certainty of
their existence. I have chosen to share this information.

I understand the cynical attitude shown here. However, how is
this 'field' ever to progress if it rejects 'new' findings out
of hand?

"There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action."
-Goethe


--
Best Regards,
Bob Huff
"Given a choice between two theories, take the one which is funnier."

--







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                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 23:21:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 06:00:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:51:26 -0800
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:52:08 -0400
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >My apologies to Stanton Friedman. On attempting to verify the
 >statements I made with the source of the information, it became
 >apparent that much that I posted related to record group RG341
 >was misleading to false. I asked for a clarification, which was
 >promised, but after four days still undelivered. I felt a reply
 >to Friedman's last message needed to be time sensitive to be of
 >any value. Thus, my apology to Stanton Friedman and readers of
 >this mailing list for having posted the first paragraph of my
 >last message which is not supported by facts.

 >The remainder of the message which Stanton Friedman ignored in
 >his response remains relevant to any meaningful discussion of
 >MJ-12 and its provenance at this time and in the future.
 >Unfortunately, I will not be available for further discussions
 >on the UFO subject. I have decided that there isn't anyone in
 >this field that I really care to associate with any longer,
 >regardless of what their opinions are on this subject.

 >Ed Stewart


You are a rare breed indeed Mr. Stewart.

I rarely share your views on the UFO subject (I know, life
sucks), but I can only tip my hat to somebody who has enough
balls to apologize for a mistake.

You are a gentle man and an endangered species.

It would be nice if, instead of picking up your marbles, you
stayed around to throw a few punches.

What will your detractors do without you?

My best,

Serge Salvaille









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                   Shag Harbour - Canadian UFO Documentary

From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 02:31:09 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 06:10:48 -0500
Subject: Shag Harbour - Canadian UFO Documentary


Greetings list -

From: http://www.canoe.ca/ChronicleHerald/news.html

'67 UFO story to be filmed
February 20, 2000
By Pat Lee / Television Reporter

It's a case Fox Mulder would love.

On a clear fall night back in 1967 a glowing object screeched
through the sky and plunged into the Atlantic off Shag Harbour,
Shelburne County, leaving a spooky, glittery gold foam in its
wake.

A week later the mysterious object was said to have sped off
underwater in the direction of Maine, leaving residents of the
tiny fishing community as well as military and police personnel
scratching their heads.

Talk about your X-Files.

For more than three decades the South Shore UFO sighting has
intrigued believers and non-believers alike, primarily because
so many people claim to have seen an object in the sky on Oct.
4, 1967, not to mention those who witnessed something resting in
the waters off Government Point.

Filmmaker Michael MacDonald, who is currently working on a
documentary about the case to air on cable's Space Channel next
season, said the Shag Harbour story is often compared to the
U.S.'s Roswell tale, in which some claim that a UFO landed in
the New Mexico desert in 1947.

"Roswell was basically an anecdotal story given by a few people
. . . and some people have actually recanted," said MacDonald,
who works for Ocean Entertainment. "But the thing about Shag
Harbour that sets it apart from the Roswell story is just the
sheer mount of paperwork involved with it.

"There's RCMP paperwork, there's Department of National Defence
memos, there's lots of witnesses around here in the Halifax area
and Nova Scotia, who when they tell their side of the story it's
amazing how well it lines up with others. It's a very highly
documented case."

MacDonald said it was the military and RCMP who called what
happened in 1967 a UFO incident. "The people down there in Shag
Harbour, when this happened, they honestly thought it was a
plane that crashed. They just naturally assumed the obvious."

MacDonald, who is currently down on the South Shore conducting
interviews for the film, said all sorts of eyewitness accounts
also flooded in from around the province.

"There were UFO sightings all over Nova Scotia. There were UFO
sightings off the Bay of Fundy, there were UFO sightings off
Prospect, an airline captain had a UFO sighting that night," he
said. "There was a lot of activity going on that night and there
was a lot of activity going on at the end of the incident a week
later."

Along with eyewitness testimony from bystanders, MacDonald said
he's also fascinated by the extensive multinational military
response to the event.

"After that thing crashed in the water, Arguses were scrambled
out of Greenwood, the Americans sailed into Shelburne Harbour,
there were submarines showing up, there was a huge search going
on, all of the sudden CFS Shelburne at Government Point was
sealed off to local traffic, there was definitely something big
happening."

He said military from Britain and Argentina were also on site.

Not surprisingly, government paperwork or photographs of the
incident are considered classified and not readily available.

But off the record, military and RCMP members who were at the
scene say something extraordinary took place off Shag Harbour.

"We're talking about grown men here, guys who've worked in the
military, guys that have been out there fishing, and their lives
have been changed ever since that date. I've had people tell me,
who won't go on the record, saying 'I can tell you this, what
you imagine happened and what you've been researching did
happen.' "

MacDonald, who heard the Shag Harbour story as a boy from his
RCMP officer father, said he became interested in putting the
incident on film after being reminded of it a few years ago and
subsequently pitched the idea to a Space executive at the Banff
Television Festival.

He said the basis of the documentary is the already extensive
research done on the subject by local buffs Chris Styles (who
spotted something himself over the skies of Dartmouth that
night) and Don Ledger, who have co-authored a book on the
incident.

MacDonald also wants to talk to anyone who saw something that
night or in the days after the event for possible use in the
film.

"I'd like to hear from anybody in Nova Scotia because often
times when UFOs are sighted, they're sighted simultaneously in
many places. So I'm looking for anyone who had an experience in
the fall of 1967, mostly those from Shelburne and Shag Harbour,
Barrington Passage and down the South Shore way, to give me a
call and let me know."

Although the story has been told before, he said interest in the
incident never seems to wane.

"UFO researchers in the United States and Canada all agree this
is one story that just doesn't go away."

---

Best regards,

- Blair Cummins
ufoblair@hotmail.com







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                        Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:17:26 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 19:11:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000


 >Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 03:32:47 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:34:48 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2096 09:05:07 -0600
 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #06 -- 2000
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >><snip>

 >>>I guess my special insight is that science, not religion, is
 >>>more likely to represent a productive approach to the unraveling
 >>>of the UFO problem. If, as George suggests, we have to abandon
 >>>science and embrace a literalist biblical supernaturalism to
 >>>discuss UFOs and extraterrestrial life meaningfully, then I am
 >>>in the wrong field and all those seemingly mindless, uninformed
 >>>critics who dismiss ufology as a religion turn out to have been
 >>>right, after all.

 >>Hi Jerry.

 >>The way I see it, when trying to understand or study something
 >>such as UFOs, we must make a conscious effort to set aside our
 >>personal biases or beliefs. This way we are more likely to gain
 >>new knowledge or understanding of something which has remained a
 >>mystery to us for so long because it did not fit into the way we
 >>thought the universe should work.

 >>The supernatural only exists because we insist on holding on to
 >>our current ways of thinking. If we set out to be truly
 >>scientific, then we would find that many things we now call
 >>supernatural are just part of the true natural world, the one
 >>that we are still learning about. Remember that modern science
 >>is only a few decades older than ufology and it is still
 >>changing.

 >>We should not be afraid where truth will ultimately take us,
 >>even if the truth leads us to areas not to our liking. What if
 >>at the end of the day we discover that UFOs are something like a
 >>projection from a multidimensional universe or a spiritual
 >>cosmos? Do you simply leave this field of study, as you imply
 >>in your e-mail, or do you become "religious" like George and I.

 >Dear Nick:

 >I think that you present a good balanced view, at least with
 >regard to the supernatural.

 >I might reword your second paragraph above differently
 >however...


 >Where you said:

 >The supernatural only exists because we insist on holding on to
 >our current ways of thinking..."

 >I would have said:

 >"The supernatural; only exists in the minds of those who cannot
 >come to terms with the natural..."

Dear Nick, Larry and Kanappy;

That which is deemed "supernatural" or "above nature," is held
in this position on the basis of culpable ignorance. Since
history began, people have been assigning much of which cannot
be easily understood to that realm.

As for your "lost" beer bottle opener, I suppose you haven't
heard the latest. Ahem, beer bottle openers are being
confiscated in your state (of California, not your liver)
because the government there believes they are dangerous weapons
of destruction. Note the word "mass" was not used. Right now,
the authorites are concentrating on weapons which can kill only
one person at a time, having confiscated the mass destruction
ones. You know, your paint ball guns, your Quisenarts, etc.

And to place a beer bottle opener in the hands of a
fundamentalist ufologist, is a terribly dangerous thing to do,
eh? Except for Gripple, booze and ufology do not mix.

 >Otherwise, I resume my search for the lost beer-bottle opener.

 >Best wishes:


 >- Larry Hatch

 >It might be behind the fridge. Its amazing the things that hide
 >under and behind the fridge.

It ain't there. The "moment of joy" police took it whilst you
were not looking.

Did you know that there are people in this world who would have
us believe that the world began 5,000 years ago? I didn't know
that!

Gesundt








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                       Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:22:26 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 19:48:59 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says


 >From: Steven W. Kaeser
 >Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 16:26:48 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 05:26:48 -0500
 >Subject: Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says

 >>Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:08:50 -0500
 >>From: Sue Kovios
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto

Previously, Sue reasonably asked:

 >>Not meaning to belittle any abductee, but if the aliens know
 >>everything about us and have been watching us, or even walk
 >>among us, they would be familiar with hypnosis, wouldn't they?
 >>To 'telepathize' the words "You will not remember this" and then
 >>the experience be remembered under hypnosis, I find this to be
 >>the one thing that just doesn't add up in abduction reports.

Steven replied:

 >I suppose the next question should revolve around the issue of
 >why the aliens would continue to abduct people over and over
 >again if they arleady had been watching us, walked among us, and
 >already knew just about everything about us.  Several abductees
 >have indicated that the aliens are now allowing more and more of
 >them to remember their experiences without the use of hypnosis,
 >but it may also be significant that they allegedly make mistakes
 >on a fairly regular basis.  Hopkins and others have recounted
 >cases where the abductee's clothing was put on inside-out, and I
 >believe in one case two abductees were put back into the wrong
 >cars.


Hi Sue and Steven!

Has it occurred to anyone that maybe ETs just like to 'mess'
with us? I mean, how many birds have asked themselves, "Why do
humans keep studying us? Surely, by now, they must know
everything about us!"

Perhaps not all ET's know the same thing. Maybe they tell their
friends,"Hey, dude! There's this place called Earth? And, like,
the people there are soooo stupid. You can pick 'em right up an
play with them and everything and they won't do nothing back!"
Maybe putting our clothes on inside out is ET humor. Go
figure...

I'm not sure we can use human logic to understand ET behavior.

later,

Roger








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   Feb > Feb 22

                           Re: My Lunch with MJ12

From: John Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:59:44 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 08:42:43 -0500
Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12


 >Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 19:21:25 -0500
 >From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net>
 >Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >I have no physical evidence of MJ12's existence just enough
 >antidotal evidence to prove to my satisfaction the certainty of
 >their existence. ...

Bob,

What's your 'antidote' for acting as a gullible shill for myth
makers and tall tale tellers?  A gullible mind is a terrible
thing to waste.

John W. Ratcliff









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                               The Anomalist 8

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:10:50 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 08:44:20 -0500
Subject: The Anomalist 8


Dear List,

Dennis Stacy & Patrick Huyghe are pleased to announce the
publication of The Anomalist 8, a special all UFO issue.

CONTENTS

Home Field Advantage
A Commentary by Charles Miller

 From Mermaids to Little Gray Men:
The Prehistory of the UFO Abduction Phenomenon
by Jerome Clark

Roper's Latest Knot
The 1998 Abduction Survey
by Peter Brookesmith

Breakout of the Fictions:
George Adamski's 1959 World Tour
by Colin Bennett

Reading the Strangeness:
Second-Order Anomalies
by T. Peter Park

The Best UFO Case Ever?
A Review and Update of the Socorro Incident
by Patrick Huyghe

What's Really Behind the Flying Saucers?
A New Twist on Aztec
by Karl T. Pflock

Debunkers of Doom?
by Martin Kottmeyer

Quality softbound format, 192pp., illus., $9.95 plus
$2.50 shipping & handling.

Make check or MO payable to:

Dennis Stacy
PO Box 12434
San Antonio
Texas 78212

For more information, or to order by credit card,
visit our web site at:

http://www.anomalist.com










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                 Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 00:16:44 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 08:51:04 -0500
Subject: Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO


 >Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 15:58:21 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com>
 >Subject: An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress


 >This is to inform you that I am appalled that the International
 >UFO Congress has invited Jonathan Reed to speak at the 9th

Personally I am not appalled about this because its called
normal operating procedure.  I have railed about this very point
for years, and its fell on deaf, dumb, and idiotic ears.

What some of these conference folks like to do, besides inviting
speakers with known and provable credentials is to invite
speaker with the  newest, latest, greatest tale or story to
behold, regardless if it is true or false.

Naturally when you present the evidence that the guy is full of
absolute crap, the people who invited him will then make some
remark like "well, its not proven to our satisfaction" and or
"well we must keep an open mind and hear from all points of
view.."

<snip >

 >Additionally, there is no evidence to support the claims made by
 >Jonathan Reed. Unless Mr. Reed can provide any reasonable
 >corroborating evidence to support his biography and that of his

In the UFO community, depending on what tale or story is being
told the "speaker" is not required to submit any corroborating
evidence to support his biography.

All you have to do is first tell some tale  that falls on a
sympathetic believers ear, say along the lines about being a
government insider, or be blathering about how you were a member
of some super secret govt committee, and or how  you were
involved with the construction of underground alien bases, or
anything along those lines.  Then get on the UFO speaking
circuit, start hawking tapes and videos and write a book.  That
instantly drives up the chances that you will get invited to
another UFO speaking opportunity, then the circle is complete so
to speak.

 >colleague Chacon, he should be removed from your program. I
 >would think that the UFO Congress should hold high standards for
 >their speakers and at a minimum require the speaker's biography
 >to be validated before issuing an invitation to speak.

That would only spoil the fun and entertainment factor. :)

 >Otherwise, your reputation will suffer, you do injustice to the
 >field of ufology, and you insult the other speakers who have
 >worked so hard for their reputation.

Having unprovable credentials seems to gain a person an almost
instant speaking engagement in ufology.   :)

I wish you well and hope the folks wake up, but suspect they
won't.

Cheers,

Robert









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                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 02:24:37 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:05:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:13:43 -0800
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 01:35:40 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 13:54:03 -0800
 >>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>>Subject: Stewart Vs. Friedman
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>actually were not supportive of your claims. But that is not
 >>>unexpected. As I have previously documented on this list, the
 >>>control procedures for Top Secret documents in the jurisdiction
 >>>of the Executive Branch have been established by law. It is not
 >>>a notion of Ed Stewart as Stanton Friedman alleges. It is the
 >>>law of the land and has been the law of the land as the history
 >>>of executive orders demonstrates!

 >>First off I disagree with Stan about the reality of the so
 >>called MJ-12 documents. That being said I would like to point
 >>out that I personally have seen authentic declassified
 >>government documents both Top Secret and codeword that DO NOT
 >>have control numbers as some people claim they should have.
 >>Years ago I entertained thoughts just like you do, that is until
 >>I made archival visit as part of my Cold War research. Big Eye
 >>opener.

 >Out of curiosity, how many of these declassified top secret and
 >codeword documents had their control coversheets attached to
 >them? I will venture to say none, if very few. Does that mean
 >that these declassified documents were not controlled during

Ed,

So in essence you are now admitting that TS and Codeword
documents do not need to have a a control number printed on
every page, you just need to have a "control coversheets"
attached to them. Taking you logic a bit farther the MJ-12
documents do not need to have any control numbers on them, they
only had to have a coversheet attached.

 >their classified existence as required by law and established
 >through executive order down the line through the CFR and
 >ultimately into department and component regulations? Absolutely
 >not. If you or Friedman or anyone, as researchers eyeballing
 >these documents at different archives are not aware of these
 >regulations (the CFR and executive orders have the power of law)
 >how can anyone make the proper conclusion as to what they are
 >looking at. One needs to know what markings belong there and
 >what doesn't. Otherwise, their pet conclusions are just that - a

Point being, regardless of how much of the CFR, or how many
Executive Orders Ed wants to quote, is that you do _not_ have to
have a TS control number printed on every page to be a real
document.

<snip>

 >>Since you seem quite bothered about the lack of control numbers,
 >>why don't you hop on an airplane, go to the National Archives in
 >>Suitland and go through the CIAs record group, in particular the
 >>National Intelligence Estimates, the material on the Corona spy
 >>sat project, records from the National Photographic Intelligence
 >>Center where you will get a mix and match which illustrates this
 >>very point.

 >Why? It is not relevant to this discussion. Apparently you
 >haven't been following the arguments presented. The
 >Cutler-Twining memo was allegedly found in RG341, an Air Force
 >record group. CIA record groups are not germaine to this
 >discussion and how the CIA does or doesn't control their Top
 >Secret documents is not determined by AR380-5.

What is relevant to this discussion is the FACT that when you
get on an airplane and go visit the archives which obviously you
have not done, whether it be the CIA record group, or the Air
Force, or whomever you will find Top Secret and Codeword
documents both with and without control numbers.

Somewhere in my files I have a copy of a 1952 or 1953 Top Secret
USAF Air Intelligence report on the Soviet Union. Guess what,
no control numbers anywhere including the cover sheet. I have
also visited the archives and went through many boxes of records
as part of my cold war research (the same thing Stan has done)
and looked at many formerly Top Secret Documents, some of which
were done the way the "CFR" and "Executive Orders" say they
should (by the book) and others that were not. Even when when
they weren't done "by the book" the originating enity and the
Archives still viewed them as a legitament classified document
and was handled as such. You can visit this web site:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB21/06-01.htm

in which you will find a complete declassified copy of a TS
Presidential directive signed by George Bush at the start of the
gulf war. Guess what? Its labeled TS but no control numbers.

Since that document was classified in 1992, and likely reviewed
many times until it was declassified, the reviewers obviously
found no problems with the documents lack of control numbers.

<snip>

 >that somebody just forgot to place control numbers on the
 >document; it was obviously never reviewed for compliance all
 >during the alleged decades of existence of this document. Since
 >the Cutler-Twining memo didn't have any control numbers, it

But early on you suggested that you don't need control numbers
on the document, only a cover sheet with a control number.
Perhaps the CT document had a only a cover sheet.

 >obviously never came under the control of the Air Force or the
 >DOD. It is simply more compelling evidence that the document is
 >a fake and never belonged in RG341 in the first place.

By that logic trail the White House National Security Directive
I referenced the web site to DID NOT HAVE A SINGLE CONTROL
number on, so obviously it was never under the control of the
National security Council etc etc. But we all know that even
though the White House directive did not have a control number,
it was still kept in controled circumstances, whether with a
cover sheet, or locked in a vault somewhere.

 >It was obviously planted there in desperation because the
 >perpetrators wanted to take advantage of the fact that the
 >record group's declassification review was recently completed
 >and no one as of yet had rummaged through the contents, or knew
 >what was contained there or not. If found at the Archives in
 >RG341, the research team of Moore-Shandera-Friedman could claim
 >a member of the review team planted the document because no
 >outsiders had ever been given access which is what Friedman
 >claims to have happened to this day. He completely ignores the
 >fact that there were multiple reviewers from both the Archives
 >and the Air Force, all of which had briefcases to sneak an

Do we know that these multiple reviewers went through the same
boxes? The more likely story is that each reviewer took a
selection of boxes.

<snip>

 >Also, if the memo never was under the control of the Air Force
 >or DOD(which the lack of control numbers strongly suggests no
 >reviews were conducted over 30 years), the question that needs
 >to be asked is whether Twining ever had it, or ever had it in
 >his personal control outside the control of DOD? It wasn't found

Former Sec of Defense Casper Weinberger has a pot load of "his
papers" from when he was Secretary sitting at the Library of
Congress... many of them highly classified, TS, codeword and the
like. They are under his personal control and he can go and
look through them anytime he wants to.

 >in Twining's personal papers at the Library of Congress. Those
 >papers were picked over many times by various researchers

Their is still many classified papers in the Twining papers that
have not been declassified and picked through.

 >including the research team of Moore-Shandera-Friedman and
 >various researchers. It wasn't found at Suitland where the
 >Moore-Shandera-Friedman mysterious "postcards" that no one else
 >has ever seen or examined crytically told them to look. It was
 >instead allegedly found in RG341 at the National Archives
 >neatled folded in thirds, a compelling clue that the document
 >was planted there by outsiders. The first and only outsiders to
 >view RG341 were Moore and Shandera who were not allowed to bring
 >in briefcases.

 >>Several years ago I spoke to a retired govt official about
 >>special access programs and such. He advised me that some
 >>programs (like corona) were so black at the time and clearances
 >>for that information was so limited that the people generating
 >>documents did not feel the need to put on a control number
 >>because all the documents related to that were stored at
 >>seperate locations then the TS and others.

 >Yup, you will get many hearsay testimonies from alleged unnamed
 >sources claiming all sorts of things. Also, no one denies that
 >breaches of security do occur and will occur in the future.
 >Nevertheless, the executive orders, the Code of Federal
 >Regulations (CFR) and the ensuing department and subsequent
 >component regulations are specific on these matters and for the
 >most part available, unless themselves classified.

But just because you have endless amounts of Executive Orders
and CFR rules and regulations, it still doesn't change the fact
that government officials DO NOT put so called control numbers on
every page of a classified document for WHATEVER the reason.
They label it TS and essentially call it good.

Point being is whatever you think about the so called CT memo,
lack of a TS control number is utterly meaningless and not revelant
to the discussion at hand.

 >>.... By the way the special Presidential decree was
 >>classified in and of itself Talent/Keyhole, and was not part of
 >>any numbered Presidential Executive Orders or on any list of
 >>Presidential memorandums that the archives had UNTIL it was
 >>declassified. As I recall this decree did not have a control
 >>number.

 >There are many Presidential instruments available to the
 >President to use. Somewhere in these UFO updates archives I
 >posted a summarized history of these instruments going back to
 >the Federal Register Act of 1935 which is the relevant
 >jurisdictional law over Presidential Executive Orders only, not
 >the multitude array of other Presidential instruments available.
 >In essence, a classified Presidential Executive Order is not
 >given any kind of number, nor is it listed anywhere in the
 >Federal Register, until such time it becomes declassified.

Not correct. Even when they are declassified, they are not
listed, published or given any kind of number after the fact.

They are just declassified and left at that. See President
Bush's recently declassified TS order I mentioned earlier, which
had a number.

The bottom line is that IF a President wants to write an order
on 4 squares of toliet paper, whom ever that order goes to will
consider it to be a Presidential Order and not be worried about
the format, if the letter of the law is being followed and the
fact that it was not written on White House stationary, whether
or not it had a control number on it and so on etc.

 >Presidential instruments that are not especifically identified
 >as an Executive Order (of which many different kinds have been
 >available and used by every President) do not come under this
 >requirement. Consequently, since the MJ-12 Truman-Forrestal memo
 >is identified as Executive Order #092447 and as classified, it
 >consists of a grivious error that only an "outsider" would have
 >committed. A Presidential instrument identified as a classified
 >Executive Order would _NOT_ have anykind of number identifying

Perhaps. Today some classified Executive Orders are called
National Security Directives, or Presidential Decision
Directive, and or National Security Action Memorandums and so
on. Point being is they can be called anything that President
wants to call them. Likewise these classified orders _don't_
have to be signed by the President, they can be signed by his
National Security Advisor, or any number of other advisors, i.e.
whomever the President delegates. For example see this web site
(the JFK Library)

http://www.cs.umb.edu/jfklibrary/

then go to the Reference Desk, then National Security Action
Memorandums. Once you get to that location, click on number 36
"Improving the Security of Nuclear Weapons In NATO" which you
will notice it is signed by McGeorge Bundy not the President AND
Top Secret only appears at the bottom of the page, not the top,
AND it is not written on White House stationary nor does it have
a control number.

Now click on number 37 "Saceur Procedures for Ordering use of
Nuclear Weapons 4/16/61" and you will notice that Top Secret
appears on both top and bottom of page, not written on White
House stationary, and NO TS control number. Go to

http://www.lbjlib.utexas.edu/ford/library/document/nsdmnssm/nsdm276a.htm

in which you will find a copy of a 3 page Ford Administration
National Security decision Memorandum number 276 entitled having
to do with Nuclear weapons. Notice that the document is
classified TOP SECRET/Restricted Data, but NO TS control numbers
are on it. Also it was signed by Henry Kissenger who claimed
that he never had a Q clearance which would be required for Top
Secret/Restricted Data.


 >it as prescribed by law. The fact it is identified with a POUND
 >SIGN (#) after "Executive Order" demonstrates the amateurship of
 >the fakers in their attempt to con the rest of the world with
 >the bogus alleged MJ-12 documents. The humourous side of this is
 >that the fabricators of the alleged MJ-12 docluments could have
 >avoided this obvious fatal flaw by simply using any one of the
 >other Presidential instruments available at the time that did
 >not have to comply with the Federal Register Act of 1935.
 >Apparently, the MJ-12 forgers did not consider the law to be of
 >any relevance when constructing their bogus documents and did
 >not consult the relevant legal documents. (GRIN) But in the real

Likewise many Presidential administrations and other govt
officials did not consider the law to be of any relevance, and
the documents they created were considered real, valid and acted
upon accordingly by the receipants.

 >world the law is of relevance and knowledge of the relevant
 >passages are intrigal to a proper understanding of document
 >legitimacy.

In the so called real world of "document legitimacy" the TS
Kennedy era memorandum would not fit because according to the
book Top Secret must be on the top and bottom of each page.
Likewise some alleged expert could call any number of the Kennedy era
memorandums into question because they were not written on
White House stationary (like so many were), they were
not signed by the President, and they were not marked properly.
The bottom line is the receipants of those memorandums DID
NOT CARE if the document was marked correctly, or if it
had a control number on it or not, or if the President signed it.
The only thing they cared about was the document came from
what they considered lawful authority, regardless of how it
was or was not marked, or put together.
 >
 >>From the point of view of a person that has a background in
 >>publishing and editing, I can totally believe Stan.
 >
 >That is okay. You can believe whatever you wish. Belief is not a
 >crime. We are all protected under the Fourth amendment.

What I said is correct and nothing anybody says or does will
change that, i.e. Stans publishers will not recall the book or
change it in anyway over the Q vs TS or visa-versa.

When a publisher can go to Congressional testimony and see the
interpretation that Q is EQUIVILANT to TS or SCI and L is
EQUIVILANT to Secret, its called "a non issue."

As for DOE officials both they and labs are apparently are happy
with the interpretation that Q = TS or SCI and L = Secret.

They are apparently happy with allowing that sworn testimony
to stand before congress.

<snip>

 >"2. ACCESS AUTHORIZATION OR SECURITY CLEARANCE. An
 >administrative determination that an individual is eligible
 >for access to classified information or special nuclear
 >material on a "need-to-know" basis. Clearances granted by
 >the Department are designated Q, L, Top Secret, or Secret."

 >It should be obvious that if a Q was the same as a Top Secret,
 >or a L was the same as a Secret, there would be no need to
 >granted four distinct different clearances identified as Q, L,
 >Top Secret, or Secret. Two clearances would suffice. Either a Q
 >and L, or a Top Secret and Secret. But since they are not
 >equivalent, the DOE has a need to issue all four and not just
 >two. Robinson's statement above is misleading to the argument in
 >this discussion because it doesn't make it clear that a Q is
 >not equivalent to a Top Secret and a L is not equivalent to
 >Secret.

Q _is_ equivalent to TS and L IS equivalent to Secret, keep
reading.

<snip>

 >It is apparent that a Q access authorization and a Top Secret
 >Clearance are not one and the same or that a reciepient granted
 >one or the other would automatically have access to the other.

Not correct. Q and L are equivilant to TS and S respectively.
You can have a Q clearance which gives you access to Top
Secret/RD information BUT you have to have a specific need to
know on top of the clearance. On the Dept of Defense, AF, Army
or other agency just because you have a Top Secret clearance
does not give you access to all Top Secret information or
documents only those that you have or can demonstrate a specific
need to know.

Most people don't realize that according to the Atomic Energy
act most if not all nuclear material is born classified, i.e.
Restricted Data. Q gives a person clearance for Top
Secret/Restricted Data or SCI and L which is Secret/Restricted
Data.

It is easier for a DOE person to get access to TS DOD
information if he can demonstrate a need to know, then for a DOD
person with a TS clearance to get access to Top
Secret/Restricted Data. The DOD person has to have a background
check conducted through DOE for access to Top Secret/Restricted
Data information and demonstrate a need to know. DOD recognizes
the DOE background check done for said Q or L clearance and if
the person can also demonstrate a need to know, they can have
access to TS data like DOD people with a TS clearance.

 >In my personal case, I was granted a Top Secret clearance when I
 >worked for the Air Force as a civilian in the Logistics
 >Operation Center at Wright-Patterson AFB. I was a Project
 >Control Officer for various Air Force programs under the
 >jurisdiction of then the Air Force Logistics Command and
 >assisted in insuring logistics support for those programs and
 >acted as an intermediary between the Air Staff at the Pentagon
 >and the various System Managers. I had a demonstrated need for a
 >top secret clearance, but had no demonstrated need for viewing
 >anything that was categorized as Restricted Data (RD) or
 >Formerly Restricted Data (FRD). One needed either an L or Q
 >access authorization for that if a need-to-know was
 >demonstrated. Had my superiors determined that I had such a
 >need, even with a completed, existant and current top secret
 >investigation on file, I would have had to wait the 6 to 8 weeks
 >to be granted a reciprocal access authorization from DOE to even

That is what I said above. BUT a DOE person with a Q clearance
would not have to wait because most other govt agencys recognize
a Q clearance as having access to TS information (albit
restricted data) and recognize the DOE background check for that
person.

 >view Restricted Data at the Confidential or Secret levels. And
 >what Robert Gates posted on reciprocity confirms that fact. It
 >does not support the misrepresentation that Top Secret and Q are
 >equivalent.

 >>From the Defense Security Service (DOD) at:

 >>http://www.dss.mil/seclib/govsec/chap4.htm

 >This passage from the Defense Security Service not only is it
 >misleading, but is simply totally incorrect in their
 >interpretation. That is understandable. They are not DOE, do not
 >grant Q or L access authorizations, or conduct Q or L background
 >investigations. If a Q or L equated to a Top Secret or Secret,
 >their would be no need for the DOE to issue Top Secret or Secret
 >clearances. But the DOE does issue them bacause they are not
 >equivalent to a Q or L access authorization.

DOE does not issue Top secret or Secret clearances, they issue Q
or L which gives DOE persons access to TS or Secret information
within their need to know Had Ed looked at the DSS site, he
would see that they are the ones tasked with conducting
background investigations (for clearances) for the Dept of
Defense.  Need I say more.

 >If Robert Gates or Stanton Friedman would ever look at the
 >instruments of law that define all of this, they would not be
 >consistent in their misinterpretations of what they have picked
 >up here and there. One can search thorough the Code of Federal
 >Regulations online and come up with over a hundred different
 >citations in the CFR that explains all of this elegantly. One
 >can read the CFR online from the Government Printing Office
 >homepage online.

 >>So Stan is correct when he says that a Q clearance is equal to
 >>TS or even SCI.

 >Sorry, the CFR says different, the DOE regulations say
 >different, your links when placed in the correct context say
 >different. The regulations have the force of law. The quotes
 >from web sites are merely quotes from web sites. As it is, the
 >Sandia and LLNL web sites Robert Gates cited were mostly
 >accurate but misleading. The military web site cited was just
 >plain wrong. Understandable since the military doesn't do Q
 >clearances.

 >Bottom line is read and understand the prime directives, not the
 >second-hand hearsays and misleading testimonies. A definition
 >for the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Title 10 which
 >pertains to the Deparment of Energy:

 >      Q Access Authorizations or Clearances are based on
 >      background investigations conducted by the Federal
 >      Bureau of Investigation (FBI), OPM, or another
 >      Government agency that conducts personnel security
 >      investigations. Q clearances permit an individual to
 >      have access, on a need-to-know basis, to Top Secret,
 >      Secret, and Confidential levels of Restricted Data,
 >      Formerly Restricted Data, National Security
 >      Information, or special nuclear material as required
 >      in the performance of duties. When Q access

By Ed's own quote, a person can say in general terms that a
Q clearances is equivilant to a Top Secret, i.e. access to Top
Secret data.

In essence when it was written in Crash at Corona that Stan's
clearance was a Top Secret, in general terms, that was correct.
A person could even say that a Q clearance gives you access to
Top Secret information (restricted data) beyond that of the the
individual with a standard TS clearance.

In a section of Title 10 CFR, below where Ed quoted we read the
following:

"Sec. 1016.32 Classification and preparation of documents.
......
   (b) Classification consistent with content. Each document
containing Restricted Data shall be classified Secret or
Confidential according to its own content."

Point of quoting this is that EVERY Restricted Data document has
to be classified either Secret, Confidential, or we know Top
Secret, meaning that the terms Secret/Restricted data are not
seperate,but in fact together. You can say that Q is equivilant
to TS because Q gives you access to Top Secret/Restricted data.
L is equivilant to Secret and gives you access to
Secret/Restricted Data.

 >      authorizations or clearances are granted to employees
 >      of access permit holders, the clearances are
 >      identified as Q(X) access authorizations or
 >      clearances and permit access only to the type of
 >      Secret or Confidential Restricted Data specified in
 >      the permit."

 >It should be clear that a Q is an access authorization/clearance
 >and must be seperately activated at the TS level. It doesn't
 >automatically allow you to access TS data. The background

Incorrect. It should be clear that a Q clearance is _directly_
connected to Top Secret and is not seperately activated _unless_
you are a non DOE person, then it is seperately activated.

Even if you have a Top Secret clearance, it does not
automatically allow you to access TS data. You must demonstrate
a need-to-know and even then, you may not be granted access.
Likewise, just because you have a Q clearance does not give you
access to the Top Secret design plans of the H-bomb. You would
only have access if you had a demonstrated need to know.

 >investigation can be said to be equivalent to a TS level
 >background investigation, but the clearance isn't unless you get
 >specific authorization for TS which in itself, as demonstrated
 >above, can take up to 8 weeks to be granted.

 >The reason for this is that the vast majority of Q clearances
 >were merely to allow people to enter a Q classified area without
 >an escort. Even if your work was unclassified, you needed a Q to
 >enter a Q area. A Q level access authorization is not
 >automatically at the TS level and the vast majority of Q's are

Incorrect. A Q clearance gives you access to Top
Secret/Restricted Data on a need to know basis. Just like Top
Secret gives a person access to Top Secret data on a need to
know basis.

Besides walking through facilitys and locations that are highly
classified Q also gives you the ability, on a need to know
basis, to create or read documents classified TS/RD as that
person has a need to know.

Cheers,

Robert









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 22

                       Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says

From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:32:24 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:09:50 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says


 >Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:22:26 -0600
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >>From: Steven W. Kaeser
 >>Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 16:26:48 -0500
 >>Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 05:26:48 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says

 >>>Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:08:50 -0500
 >>>From: Sue Kovios
 >>>Subject: Re: UFOs 'Out There', Prof Says
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto

 >Previously, Sue reasonably asked:

 >>>Not meaning to belittle any abductee, but if the aliens know
 >>>everything about us and have been watching us, or even walk
 >>>among us, they would be familiar with hypnosis, wouldn't they?
 >>>To 'telepathize' the words "You will not remember this" and then
 >>>the experience be remembered under hypnosis, I find this to be
 >>>the one thing that just doesn't add up in abduction reports.


Hi Sue, Roger, Steven,

David Jacobs has offered an explanation for this in 'The
Threat'. The abduction phenomenon is - and I think anyone
seriously interested in this subject should know this - a
lifelong process. It starts when the abductee is in his/her
infancy and progresses into adulthood.

The character of the abductions changes as the individual grows
older. One phase builds upon the next. Jacobs offers that the
memory of specific abductions is stored at an unconscious level
in long term memory. This memory is preserved there to continue
the process.

The 'aliens' only suppress short term memory and conscious long
term memory. In this way they prevent the individual to remember
an abduction during his/her normal functioning.

Hypnosis however can bring to light suppressed long term memory.
In this way the suppression is lifted.

This is what Jacobs offers and I can't see any illogic in his
reasoning.

The contradiction lies in another aspect of the abduction
phenomenon. Before people like Hopkins, Mack and others started
hypnotising clients, most abduction accounts were consciously
remembered. Only these days abductions are linked to hypnosis,
although a fairly large part of abductees still have conscious
memory of events.

The contradiction I see is that part of the abductions are
evoked only through hypnosis, while others are consciously
remembered.

























Groeten,
Henny







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 22

                           Re: My Lunch with MJ12

From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:34:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:01:23 -0500
Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12


 >Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:59:44 -0600
 >From: John Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
 >Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 19:21:25 -0500
 >>From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net>
 >>Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>I have no physical evidence of MJ12's existence just enough
 >>antidotal evidence to prove to my satisfaction the certainty of
 >>their existence. ...

 >Bob,

 >What's your 'antidote' for acting as a gullible shill for myth
 >makers and tall tale tellers?  A gullible mind is a terrible
 >thing to waste.
Hi John,

My anecdotal -- sorry my spell check finger slipped earlier --
is convincing to this gullible shill because of the taxonomy of
the information ferreted from disparate sources. Pls see
'Reality of MJ12' posting.

BTW, do you always so readily disparage someone you do not know?


--

Best Regards,
Bob Huff
"Given a choice between two theories, take the one which is funnier."

--







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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 22

                 Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 05:53:34 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:46:14 -0500
Subject: Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO


 >>Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 00:16:44 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >>In the UFO community, depending on what tale or story is being
 >>told the "speaker" is not required to submit any corroborating
 >>evidence to support his biography.

 >>All you have to do is first tell some tale  that falls on a
 >>sympathetic believers ear, say along the lines about being a
 >>government insider, or be blathering about how you were a member
 >>of some super secret govt committee, and or how  you were
 >>involved with the construction of underground alien bases, or
 >>anything along those lines.  Then get on the UFO speaking
 >>circuit, start hawking tapes and videos and write a book.  That
 >>instantly drives up the chances that you will get invited to
 >>another UFO speaking opportunity, then the circle is complete so
 >>to speak.



Hi All,

A good point raised here by Robert, all too often seen in UFO
circles.

I think this is why I usually tend to listen with a bit more
interest to those who do not have a platform to stand on
regarding such issues.

These people are the most interesting in my opinion, at a recent
conference someone said something which was greeted with slight
shock from the speakers.

Everyday normal people were more inclined to give you the
reality check list concerning strange encounters, rather than
someone who has every other alphabet title stuck on the end of
his/her name.

Some fascinating things have I heard over the years some were BS
others well... funny things us humans.

Roy..            Keep Smiling..









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 22

                 Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:45:35 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:52:31 -0500
Subject: Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO



 >Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 00:16:44 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 15:58:21 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com>
 >>Subject: An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress

 >>This is to inform you that I am appalled that the International
 >>UFO Congress has invited Jonathan Reed to speak at the 9th

 >Personally I am not appalled about this because its called
 >normal operating procedure.  I have railed about this very point
 >for years, and its fell on deaf, dumb, and idiotic ears.

Hmmm.... so far, at least on this thread, that's one (1) "appalled"
and one (1) "Not Appalled."

I care to break the tie.  I am appalled two.  So Mr. Gates,
whaddya have to say aboot that, eh?  Nya, nya!

 >What some of these conference folks like to do, besides inviting
 >speakers with known and provable credentials is to invite
 >speaker with the  newest, latest, greatest tale or story to
 >behold, regardless if it is true or false.

Ah, but what is a "known and provable" credential to one not
appalled may be without portfolio to someone who is appalled.
What's a mother to do?

 >Naturally when you present the evidence that the guy is full of
 >absolute crap, the people who invited him will then make some
 >remark like "well, its not proven to our satisfaction" and or
 >"well we must keep an open mind and hear from all points of
 >view.."

This has _never_ been a problem with me.  Just as an example, I
have been full of absolute crap often, and it never got me an
invite to speak at some conference.  I've always had to have my
own conference to speak at.  An' nobody came.  (sniffles)

 ><snip>

 >>Additionally, there is no evidence to support the claims made by
 >>Jonathan Reed. Unless Mr. Reed can provide any reasonable
 >>corroborating evidence to support his biography and that of his

Why do so many people on this list worry so damned much about
supporting biographies and Curriculum Vitae?  Huh?  Doesn't what
the dude have to say matter much more than his CV?

We are so sick and tired over this issue that the Gripple
Instisnoot doth hereby grant a Ph.D. to Dr. Reed.  We are proud
to honor Dr. Reed with this degree, which is replete with the
skin of a virgin lamb directly from the Hatch Stables.  Larry
(Dr. Larry) feeds his virgins nothing but honest to goodness
Grollsche (with the special wire top).  Along with Gripple and
recycled Morte Della from the farms of Factory Nr. One in NYC,
this makes their skin soft and supple enough for our presses to
imprint the special seal of Doctorhood.

Your sheep skin and Grolschgripple will be in shipped forthwith,
Dr. Reed.  And you just never mind what that ol' grouch has to
say about you... hell, I never do.

 >In the UFO community, depending on what tale or story is being
 >told the "speaker" is not required to submit any corroborating
 >evidence to support his biography.

Now there you go again.  Dr. Reed, when your credentials show
up, you may proudly submit them to this reprobate who maligns
your reputation and diss's your beliefs.

 >All you have to do is first tell some tale  that falls on a
 >sympathetic believers ear, say along the lines about being a
 >government insider, or be blathering about how you were a member
 >of some super secret govt committee, and or how  you were
 >involved with the construction of underground alien bases, or
 >anything along those lines.  Then get on the UFO speaking
 >circuit, start hawking tapes and videos and write a book.  That
 >instantly drives up the chances that you will get invited to
 >another UFO speaking opportunity, then the circle is complete so
 >to speak.

No.  We tried that direction too, but it had no magnitude.
Which precluded it's being a vector.  Meaning it didn't work for
us either.

 >>colleague Chacon, he should be removed from your program. I
 >>would think that the UFO Congress should hold high standards for
 >>their speakers and at a minimum require the speaker's biography
 >>to be validated before issuing an invitation to speak.

 >That would only spoil the fun and entertainment factor. :)

 >>Otherwise, your reputation will suffer, you do injustice to the
 >>field of ufology, and you insult the other speakers who have
 >>worked so hard for their reputation.

Who among you, or for that matter, "us," has _not_ done
injustice to the field of ufology and insulted other speakers
who have worked so hard for their reputations?

How many so-called "researchers" have sullied their reputations
by embracing some idiotic cause, in spite of the cause not being
celebre, but rather, sullied sufficiently with horse hockey to
sell maybe a few more books, make a few more tapes and perhaps a
few more appearances on various venues, with which to make a
rather complete ass of his or her self?

Huh?


 >Having unprovable credentials seems to gain a person an almost
 >instant speaking engagement in ufology.   :)

Not in this day and age.  People know if you've smoked and
inhaled or smoked and not inhaled.  Not to mention one's
personal habits regarding their genitalia. Especially if you
are, uh, larger or smaller than average.  If you know what I
mean.

 >I wish you well and hope the folks wake up, but suspect they
 >won't.


Dear Robert, Errol and all you ex spurts out there in the ether:

Who are we to determine who is righteous enough to speak our
minds and who are not?  Seems that is the purview of those who
put on the show.

One can attend, not attend, agree, not agree, even go postal.
But one is not allowed, at least not in this country, to stifle
the voices of those who would have something to say.  Even
something really stupid.

The success or failure of the place from which the jury is drawn
is, by all conventions of freedom and liberty, dependent on the
crime, eh?  And when it comes to UFOs and abduction, there are
more nutcases per capita, more loonies, more flaked out sixties
flashing back, more culpable ignorance, than in any other venue
I've ever been exposed to.. .. to which I've ever been exposed.
Whatever.

And lord knows, I exposed myself in many places so I oughta
know.

And now for the coop dee grassy knoll.  Ready?

With all this crap, all this bitching and moaning about Reed and
others, not one of these sons of guns has invited me, the great
J. Jaime Gesundt, to one of these conferences.  Not only that,
but the last time I was invited to a conference I helped in
putting together, I didn't even get to attend the pre-conference
repast.

So I decided not to embarrass my fiends and fellow abductees and
stay the hell out of other people's passions.  Except to provide
all which I am able, including money, with which to support
someone else's right to make a complete ass of himself. Or
herself.

Providing, of course, I sell enough Gripple to be able to afford
it. I support anyone who seeks truth. Anyone.

Do you?  No?  Not everyone?  Because he has a religious leaning,
or more than one Ph.D., or is new age?  Anyone who is biased by
his or her own culture doesn't belong in this business. Which
just about eliminates everyone.

Except you.  And you know who you are, don't you?

Cheers,
JImmy







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   Feb > Feb 22

                 'Alien Hand' Syndrome Turns Limbs Monstrous

From: Jeroen Kumeling <ufonet@xs4all.nl>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:24:36 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:57:58 -0500
Subject: 'Alien Hand' Syndrome Turns Limbs Monstrous


Source: http://www.sightings.com/politics6/hand.htm


'Alien Hand' Syndrome Turns Limbs Monstrous
By E.J. Mundell
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000221/hl/dsb_51.html

2-21-00




NEW YORK (Reuters Health) -- Like victims in a horror film,
patients with a rare syndrome known as 'alien hand' feel
disassociated from one of their own hands, insisting that the
hand is 'possessed' by a force outside their control.

The condition typically arises in the aftermath of brain
surgery, stroke, or infection. Patients can feel sensation in
the hand, but believe that it is not part of their body, and
that they have no control over its movements. In some cases,
"alien hands can perform complex acts such as trying to tear
clothes or undoing buttons," explain neurologist Dr. R.
Inzelberg and colleagues at Hillel Yaffe Medical Center in
Hadera, Israel.

Writing in the February issue of the Journal of Neurology,
Neurosurgery, and Psychiatry, the Israeli team describes a case
of 'alien hand' associated with a possible case of
Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (CJD), a degenerative brain disorder
caused by infectious particles called prions.

The patient in question, a 70-year-old Argentinean man,
underwent a swift neurological decline -- including
hallucinations, memory dysfunction, behavior change and alien
hand -- possibly caused by CJD. "At times," the researchers
report, "(his) left arm would spontaneously rise in front of the
patient during speaking.... He was unaware of these movements
until they were brought to his attention."

Isolated reports have linked alien hand with CJD in the past. In
one case, "the alien limb performed complex actions such as
unbuttoning (the patient's) blouse and removing a hair pin." In
another, a woman found herself "powerless" to prevent her hand
from repeatedly touching her eyes and mouth.

According to the study authors, various types of brain injury
appear to trigger distinct subtypes of alien hand. For example,
in right-handed persons, injury to the corpus callosum -- a
bundle of nerves connecting the two halves of the brain -- can
give rise to "purposeful" movements of the left hand, while
injury to the brain's frontal lobe can trigger "grasping" and
other purposeful movements in the dominant (right) hand. In
other cases, "aimless movements of either hand" occur in
patients affected by injury to the brain's cerebral cortex. And
the authors note that more complex alien hand movements -- such
as unbuttoning or tearing of clothes -- are usually associated
with brain tumors, aneurysm or stroke.

In every case, patients retain sensation of feeling in the
affected hand or arm, but lose any sense of control over the
renegade limb. "They may struggle to stop the movements,"
Inzelberg told Reuters Health, "restrain the limb, punish it,
talk to it, personify or refer to it as a third person. The may
even say that an evil spirit exists in the hand. In a sense the
hand is the 'Other'."

The study authors note that one common factor between the
diseases associated with the phenomenon is that all these
disorders involve several parts of the brain at once, suggesting
that simultaneous damage to the parts of the brain that control
movement may be responsible. In essence, Inzelberg explained,
there is a "disconnection between parts of the brain which are
involved in motor (voluntary muscle) control."

Unfortunately, there is currently no treatment for alien hand.
According to the Israeli researcher, all patients can do to
control the problem is to keep the hand "occupied" by having it
hold an object.

Based on their findings, the investigators advise that
Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease be added to the list of neurological
disorders that prompt 'alien hand'. Inzelberg says future
studies are planned "to understand better the mechanisms
involved in this rare condition." SOURCE: Journal of Neurology,
Neurosurgery and Psychiatry 2000;68:103-104.


Jeroen Kumeling
Paul Krugerstraat 6
7551 GX Hengelo (ov)
+31 (0)74-24 25 514
email: jkumeling@ufonet.nl

UFO-Werkgroep Nederland
Postbus 2191
7500 CD Enschede
tel: +31 (0)53 4310412
email: ufowerkgroepNL@ufonet.nl


Bezoek ook eens de internetsite van UFONET:

http://www.ufonet.nl










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   Feb > Feb 23

                           The Book 'Above Black'

From: Nancy Davidson <nld1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:33:46 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:15:43 -0500
Subject: The Book 'Above Black'


Hi,

I was wondering if anyone has read the book "Above Black" by Dan
Sherman.  If they have, what is their opinion of the book?

The book sounds interesting; but, I was wondering is Dan Sherman
a legimate author?

Nancy Davidson
Chicago, Illinois








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   Feb > Feb 23

                   Re: An Open Letter to the International

From: clearlight@t-online.de (Josh Goldstein)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 02:21:13 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:21:56 -0500
Subject: Re: An Open Letter to the International


 >Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 00:16:44 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 15:58:21 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com>
 >>Subject: An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >>Additionally, there is no evidence to support the claims made by
 >>Jonathan Reed. Unless Mr. Reed can provide any reasonable
 >>corroborating evidence to support his biography and that of his

<snip>

 >In the UFO community, depending on what tale or story is being
 >told the "speaker" is not required to submit any corroborating
 >evidence to support his biography.

<snip>

 >Having unprovable credentials seems to gain a person an almost
 >instant speaking engagement in ufology.   :)

 >I wish you well and hope the folks wake up, but suspect they
 >won't.


Well said, Robert. Just today, after trying to understand this
mystery for many years I was asking myself why it never seems to
slow down. What is so empty in those people that they have to
create alter selves to live in? False lives. And how can they
live like that? Ah, the life of a psychotic.

This conference has always been strong on the Las Vegas side of
the speakers. The one time I ever was scared at a conference was
in LA in about 1990 at the UFO expo west.

It was a room with Milton W. Cooper standing up front and having
a meltdown. I just again laughed him off again as having come
from "Beyond The Bizarre". The thing that scared me was a room
of naive expo goers giving him a standing ovation.

Josh
MJ13











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   Feb > Feb 23

                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:33:34 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:26:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 09:57:33 -0400
 >From: Stanton T. Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Hello, all Stan,

 >>Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:51:26 -0800
 >>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:52:08 -0400
 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:42:28 -0800
 >>>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>In short Ed you are making it up. For shame. Your psychic
 >>>powers were out of whack.

 >>My apologies to Stanton Friedman. On attempting to verify the
 >>statements I made with the source of the information, it became
 >>apparent that much that I posted related to record group RG341
 >>was misleading to false. I asked for a clarification, which was
 >>promised, but after four days still undelivered. I felt a reply
 >>to Friedman's last message needed to be time sensitive to be of
 >>any value. Thus, my apology to Stanton Friedman and readers of
 >>this mailing list for having posted the first paragraph of my
 >>last message which is not supported by facts.

 >>The remainder of the message which Stanton Friedman ignored in
 >>his response remains relevant to any meaningful discussion of
 >>MJ-12 and its provenance at this time and in the future.
 >>Unfortunately, I will not be available for further discussions
 >>on the UFO subject. I have decided that there isn't anyone in
 >>this field that I really care to associate with any longer,
 >>regardless of what their opinions are on this subject.

 >>Ed Stewart

 >I accept Ed's apology and offer my sympathy for his apparently
 >being led down the garden path by somebody providing false
 >unsubstantiated "information".

 >Frankly, I am shocked that such apparently strong "research"
 >proclamations, as his have been, are seemingly based on hearsay
 >from a source he must have considered reliable.

 >I wonder who that source might be and why he was targetting
 >me?

 >Stan Friedman

I've noticed a trend, in these types, the accuser surfaces,
attacks, then submurges, as in Ed Stewart, who apparently took
the marbles and went home - to his credit apologizing to Stan,
although Stan deserves his aggie back!

Also the man who shall not be named on this list, who surfaced
in Montana, then ah well, died.

The current controversy over the appearance of one Dr. Reed at a
conference despite the problem with his credentials , and
special effect abilities. yet there are people who give him
credit - although Turkeys can't soar, they shure make a lot of
noise, trust me, I know.

My point is, who are these people (yes Ufology is full of them )
who seem to be bent to make the subject ridiculous-Skeptics,
Klass et .al. are not the problem, it is rather the odd sniper
that pops up, or the ridiculous figure such as Reed or even
popluar talk show hosts/ authors who espouse a profitic er,
prophetic, voice and get it wrong.

My opinion: ," Just because you are parinoid doesn't mean anyone
isn't out to get you." yet I wonder who are the" Kollective
Klowns" that seem to thwart the answer one way or the other.

GT McCoy








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   Feb > Feb 23

                       Life Magazine Article Rebuttal

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:42:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:42:38 -0500
Subject: Life Magazine Article Rebuttal


Source: http://www.sightings.com/politics6/life.htm

SIGHTINGS

Life Magazine
Article Rebuttal
By
Sandy Nichols <WSMITH51@aol.com>

2-22-00


My name is Sandy Nichols. I am one of the people mentioned so
prominently in the March 2000 issue of the Life Magazine article
about UFOs and related subjects. The purpose of this rebuttal
will focus mainly on the flagrant inaccuracies written about me,
the people I associate with, the article in general, and what I
strongly suspect is the true intent of the writer, Ms Cynthia
Fox, and Life Magazine.

How it all began,

On January 6, 2000 I received an e-mail from Ms Fox, stating
that she was writing the cover story for the March issue of Life
Magazine, and was interested in attending meetings or events or
discussions occurring in the month of January. I promptly sent
back an e-mail reply to Ms Fox, stating that I might be able to
help her out. I explained to her that some friends and I gather
about twice a month, and that we had a Gathering scheduled for
late January. Due to a conflict with when she had to have the
article to the printers, I arranged to have the Gathering moved
forward by a week to January 18th. Over the next few weeks we
exchanged a few more e-mails and talked on the phone several
times. During one of the phone conversations I shared with her
some good news. Toward the end of 1999 I was asked by a
gentleman to CO-Host a new talk show called the "TENN FILES",
and it was debuting on January 17th. Ms Fox was very excited
about this and arranged her schedule to fly into Nashville on
the 17th and to be at my house in time for the debut. During
another phone conversation she asked if Nashville had an airport
and if there were any hotels nearby. I informed Ms Fox that
Nashville was a nice size city, and there were plenty of places
to stay. I recommended several hotels in Brentwood, TN, the city
where I live, which is about a forty-minute drive from the
Nashville airport. She stayed at the one of the hotels I
recommended.

At 8:30pm on January 17th, Ms Fox arrived at my home one hour
late and just thirty minutes before the debut of the radio
program. I walked out the front door, down the sidewalk to the
driveway and greeted Ms Fox. She apologized for being late. I
told her that we still had plenty of time before the program
aired. As we neared the front door Ms Fox made a comment, and
then a statement. She said, "You have a nice place," and then she
stated, "It must be worth well over a million dollars." I was
rather floored that she said this, but came back with a quick
reply. I told her maybe in New York where she lived it might be
worth that much, but outside of Nashville there was no way. I
told her it was well under her stated value and I let that
discussion die. I must admit that I was a little bit more than
disturbed by her statement, and I hoped that she would not ask
any more questions about the value of those things I owned. This
was one area of questioning that was going to be totally off
limits, even if it meant stopping all interviews or never
starting them to begin with. Little did I know that Ms Fox was
going to draw her own conclusions with this topic and many
others that we did and did not discuss with her.

Life Magazine Editor Notes, Page 9, A Contradiction?

"The Air Force now says it was a secret, high-altitude spy
balloon that fell to earth in the New Mexico desert in 1947. But
nearly 53 years later, what Roswell spawned is still with us.
The town is in the business of abducting tourists, luring them
to its UFO museums, where they can buy alien boxer shorts, among
other merchandise (see Cynthia Fox's voyage through America's
UFO landscape, page 46). Despite the lack of hard evidence, 43
percent of Americans continue to believe in the existence of
UFOs, according to a LIFE poll (page 56). And a new generation
is being implanted with images of alien invasion",

"It's easy to write off the UFO phenomenon as a form of mass
hysteria, or as a function of a paranoid streak that runs deep
through American life, or as a symptom of mental illness. But it
also represents a belief--no more irrational than a belief in
God--that we are not alone. As long as scientists continue to
probe the skies looking for signs of life, as long as humans can
imagine, those beliefs will be with us. Indeed, 54 percent of
Americans say they believe intelligent life exists elsewhere in
the universe. Not all of them are crackpots.", Mr. Friedman
wrote, Robert Friedman, Assistant Managing Editor

Above are the Editor Note's from Mr. Robert Friedman, Assistant
Managing Editor of Life Magazine, page 9. There is confusion as
to the belief in UFO's by Mr. Friedman. In one paragraph he
says, referring to Roswell, NM "the town is in the business of
abducting tourists, luring them to its UFO museum, " In another
paragraph he emphatically states that a belief in UFO's
"represents a belief-no more irrational than a belief in
God-that we are not alone." His very last sentence states,
referring to believers in UFO's, that "Not all of them are
crackpots." After reading the editor note's, and then reading
the article by Ms Cynthia Fox, it is not very hard to see a
contradiction between the editor note's and the article itself.
Mr. Friedman's notes seem to give the UFO subject a bit of
credibility and imply that Life Magazine has an open mind, yet
an editor at Life Magazine (Mr. Friedman?), had to give final
approval for the story written by Ms Fox. The article basically
attacks the credibility of everyone but Mr. Chris McKay, and for
reasons unknown, Ms Fox's tends to single me out for the most
damage. After reading the article I found it better suited for
the weekly tabloid newspaper on sale at supermarkets.

The total time spent by Ms Fox and myself in private
conversation was a grand total of 5 hours. Three hours and
thirty minutes were spent driving from one destination or
another, and one and one half-hour's at the Opryland Hotel in
the course of eating a meal. The rest of the time spent by Ms
Fox in this area was done in the process of interviewing others
that I had introduced to her. I was present at some of these
interviews, but did not contribute personally. Most what Ms Fox
wrote about me and what she reported I said, was either
misquoted, misconstrued, taken totally out of context, or came
very close to crossing over that thin line of fabrication. Most
of the things I really said to Ms Fox I have said before during
radio interviews, in my writings, speaking at conferences and to
my friends. All of these talks were done in an open and public
forum and are a matter of record. There is strong suspicion on
my part but not provable, that the sole purpose of Ms Fox and
Life Magazine was to focus strictly on main stream beliefs and
thoughts, and to basically debunk all other beliefs and those
that profess those beliefs. The article itself testifies to this
without a doubt as well as the editor note's with key words such
as "abducting tourists," "implanted with images of aliens, " and
"fueled our imaginations with a steady diet of science fiction
movies about aliens invading from other planets." The only person
that was not made to look bad was Chris McKay. Even though I
have never met Mr. McKay, I have heard of his stellar reputation
and have the utmost respect for his work.

I knew that when I took the bold step of coming forward with my
abductions and felt called by God to speak out, that there would
be close-minded individuals who would take pot shots at me. I
have always stated that I respect the opinions, ideas and
theories of others even though they may not be mine. I have
found though that some people and publications have no respect
for those that go against the status-quo belief system. I do not
mind speaking with those that disagree with me or find it
impossible to believe that UFO's and abductions are real, as
long as they don't slam me and make me to look like a fool with
nothing better to do. In my opinion Ms Fox and Life Magazine did
just this. In a very short period of time she judged me, found
me guilty and tried to carry out the death sentence of character
assassination.

Sorry Ms Fox and Life Magazine, the sentence was not carried
out. Your verdict was painful, but I heal quickly. I have many
friends, and I have received literally hundreds of e-mails
showing support for me. I have many resources as well to work
with to speak out about this injustice. The Internet is a
marvelous tool to use when one wants to spread the word. Also
don't forget I CO-Host a radio show every week that reaches
many, many people, and all programs are archived. Will I continue
to speak out about this? You bet I will. I just wonder though,
this month it was I. Who will it be next month?

What I really said,

"Sandy Nichols is on the phone, seeking earthlings. He doesn't
need to look for extraterrestrial life. It found him 42 years
ago, he says, when he was kidnapped asleep and deposited in a
flying saucer, as he would be many more times.", Cynthia Fox
wrote,

I was doing my CO-Hosting duties, getting ready to debut the new
radio program on KRVL 103.1FM in Tucson, AZ. My first abduction
was at the age of six (now 48), on a sunny day in the backyard
of my grandmother's home in East Nashville.

"His mission is to tell humans what aliens want, which is to
create a new race because they lost their emotions--or whatever
(he hasn't nailed the details).", Cynthia Fox wrote,

I feel called by God, to use the gift of talk that I seem to
have. It is a theory of mine, shared by many others but not
written in stone. I may awaken tomorrow morning with a new
theory about the whole abduction issue.

"So he's planning the debut of a radio show and a gathering that
includes his support group, which helps abductees through the
"UFO divorces" many have after they "come out of the UFO
closet.", Cynthia Fox wrote,

It was already planned. I had her four different researchers in
the field that she could listen too and be able to better write
her story because the issue is so complex. I had already worked
out the details of the Gathering, and had arranged for a number
of people to meet her. I would take her there the next day on
January 18th. It is not my Group. It is nobody's group. We are a
myriad of individual people with different ideas, opinions and
theories and beliefs who get together about every two weeks to
share. It is not a support group for divorced people. She
misquoted this and turned this around. I told her that I have
dealt with many abductee's that said their spouse's do not
understand what has happened to them after they have shared with
them. I said that this sharing has sometimes lead to divorces.

I have my own group. It is called ARG (Alien Research Group). I
help people find psychologists, psychiatrists and support groups
around the country and the world for those people that believe
that they may have been abducted or have already come to that
realization. I am also associated with the NightSearch
Organization , www.NightSearch.net, in Memphis, TN headed up by
Eddie Middleton. I coordinate the "TENN FILES" section of this
group. The radio show I CO-Host is called the "TENN FILES,"
broadcasts every Monday night.

"The ex-wife has joint custody of his human kids;
extraterrestrials have full custody of his alien kids; he's
afraid to go to bed. And staring up at the stars, this
college-educated husband of a former Air Force captain--and son
of a millionaire--may cry, as he often does, at the horror, the
wonder, the whatever of it all." Cythina Fox wrote, .

I have three children and I do share custody with my ex-wife. I
have been shown two of my Hybrid children. I do not even know
what an "Alien Kid" looks like. I have never been shown any. As
I stated earlier, I would not and never discussed money issues.
I used to cry at one time out of fear, of questioning my own
sanity before I came to accept that the abductions were real. I
still cry on occasions, when the pressures of what I have
experienced weigh heavily upon me. As for me, Ms Fox, I wear
this distinction with honor, knowing that I have been blessed
with emotions, unlike some people I have met.

"But we also want to believe aliens are conspiring against us,
making money off us, abducting us. Why? Are we that bored? This
at first seems true when abductee Sandy Nichols turns out to be
a man who hasn't had to work for years and lives in a lush
Nashville suburb. A friendly sort in a polo shirt, he introduces
two college-educated, 40-something friends. Yes, Tony, a
photographer, who says he spied a UFO that filled a third of the
sky, is suing the government with Citizens Against UFO Secrecy.
Yes, Ann begins sentences with, "A voice told me. . ." But when
Tony plays a video of an alleged sighting, and a saucer (or
trick of light) slowly appears, there is a breakout-the-popcorn
air. Boo. It's about boredom.", Cynthia Fox wrote,

I can't figure out the "aliens making money off of us." Does Ms
Fox have an inside source that has told her about the alien's
monetary system? Ms Fox, whether you want to believe it or not,
people are being abducted. I never asked you to believe me. You
asked questions, I answered them, truthfully. If you want to
live in your nice, little, secure comfortable world, be my
guest. While you stay at home, wondering when and where your
next writing assignment is coming from, my friends and I are out
searching, going boldly where even angels fear to tread.

Ms Fox, I clearly told you my past working history. I worked in
the family business for almost twenty years full time until it
was sold in 1989. I learned a strong work ethic, and might I say
a more important moral ethic when it comes to dealing with
people. I also told you I did some writing, and was working with
a lady trying to get published a new children's picture book
series. I told you that as late as summer 1998 I was working for
a national retail company. I told you that during this time I
was also writing another book series at nights during any free
time I had, and trying to get that published as well. Do you want
to see my W-2 forms for proof? Why did you not tell them about
my group ARG, and how I do not charge a penny for this service?
Back in July 1996 when I could no longer dismiss the abductions
to one status-quo explanation after another, I began a search to
see if this stuff was real. I was hurting and needed someone to
share with. It was not an easy process. It was a long and
arduous task to find people, but I did. Then I knew that I was
not alone.

For your information, Ms Fox, I am struggling financially. All
the things that you saw I had before I ever got into this field.
I am proud of what I have accomplished in my life, but I have
worked hard, harder than what you can ever imagine. Since the
summer of 1998 I have devoted my life to finding the answers
that I so desperately need. Some members of my family and some
of my closest friends can not understand my devotion. I have
even lost some of these friends. Sometimes I can't understand it
as well. My lovely, dear and supportive wife has had to carry the
burden supporting us for the last year and a half. She doesn't
quite understand what has happened to me, but she believes in
what I am doing and me. Do I like that she has been doing this?
"NO!" Since I am discussing money, why did you not tell your
readers that no one from this area asked for one red cent?
Everything we did, we did for free. Never once did any of my
friends or I ask to be reimbursed for the gas I used in my car
to drive you around, the food we offered you and the
photographers at the farm field, or for our valuable time that
you wasted after reading the article..

Ms Fox, Tony is not a photographer. He is a 5th degree black
belt instructor in the martial arts. I heard him distinctly tell
you this. He is in this field just like the majority of us are
into it, to learn; to expand our understanding and knowledge.
Maybe the video of a possible UFO he took is boring to you, but
not to us. If you had the slightest understanding of what this
field is about, then maybe, just maybe it would have not been so
boring..

Ann does not begin every sentence with "A voice told me." If you
had read your own notes better you would know this. I don't
understand how you could be with us for that period of time,
take all the notes you did, and get things so screwed up, unless
it was intentional.

"Then Nichols goes upstairs to do his radio show with abductee
co-hosts from New York City and San Diego. On air, he and the
New Yorker share thyroid problems that Nichols says were caused
by aliens and the New Yorker says were cured by them. Another
quotes a general whose belief in UFOs was erased from books and
says "reptilian" overlords control the "grays." A third, who has
written about falling in love on spaceships, says abductions run
in her family. Boredom explains some alienophiles. Not these.",
Cynthia Fox wrote,

Once again you either did not listen or you wrote your own sad
version of what was actually related to you. Since all the radio
programs are recorded this is easy to prove.

I never stated that the aliens caused my thyroid problem. What
was really discussed by myself and the other researchers that
night, were the medical conditions that a lot of abductees seem
to have in common. We also discussed stomach problems, sinus
problems, and things relating to women and pregnancy. Research
gathered so far seems to suggest that abductions happen to each
new generation.

Your story line so far seems to indicate that the UFO field and
the people involved are brought together by boredom, but now you
don't. You can't seem to make up your mind. If this field is so
boring, then why did you take the assignment to begin with?

"The next day, at the Opryland Hotel, Nichols offers
nitty-gritties, which tumble out like the waterfall behind him.
He describes his alien kids, one six months, one 18 years. He
cries: The aliens made him think he hit one of his human kids.
With hypnotherapist Pat Kerr, he cries again and talks of waking
with scratches. Kerr says he has post-traumatic stress. Why, she
won't say. Nichols says abductees are "loners," distracted by
their other lives. But when they "recover their memories" and
find one another, they have "enough friends to fill a ballroom."
Faith has brought him some of its practical gifts. It has
relieved him of responsibility for perceived flaws. It has
brought him friends. It may bring fame.", Cynthia Fox wrote,

You had your tape recorder going during this conversation, I
would have thought that you'd at least get this part right. But
apparently not. You asked the age of my hybrid children. I said
that if you had to guess an age, in human year terms, then they
would be about six months and 18 years, but I also clearly
stated that I had no idea of their real age.

The aliens did make me think I hit one of my children during an
abduction, but I clearly stated that it was what we call a
"Screen Memory."

Pat Kerr is not only a Certified Hynotherapist, but also a
Licensed Psychological Examiner. Pat has diagnosed me with PTSD.
Pat plainly stated though that as long as I am still seeing her
on occasions, she would not explain why she diagnosed me with
PTSD. Pat also plainly and bluntly stated that I did not have a
mental disorder and that what I had experienced was real to me.

Never once did I say that abductees were "Loners." I said that a
lot of abductee's had lonely childhoods. That some abductee's
had very few friends. Our attention seemed to be focused on
something more than just learning the ABC's. This made a lot of
us different in the eyes of our peers at a young age.

We do have a lot of friends because we have found some striking
similarities in our lives. Finding each other is like finding a
lost family member. We are very thankful to be united with these
people.

I have been very blessed in my life. I have loving and caring
parents, wonderful brothers, and gracious sister-in-laws, and
many vivacious nieces and nephews. I have three beautiful
children who make excellent grades in school, have never been in
trouble with the law, and who love their father. Yes, God has
graced me with many wonderful gifts, the most precious being His
Love, my family and friends.

Somehow, in some mysterious and miraculous way, through five
short hours of private conversation, a few e-mails and a few
phone conversations, you were able to demonstrate a gift that no
other human being has ever possesed. You are able to tell the
world in no uncertain terms who Sandy Nichols really is, what he
feels, what he thinks, what he has experienced, and what he is
all about in an article that is best not suited for publication.

My final summary,

As you can clearly see the article is flooded with inaccuracies.
This surprises me very much. A few weeks ago I got a call from a
lady named Megan. She stated that she worked for Life Magazine
as a "Fact" checker. Many of the misquotes, and other problems
that I attribute to Ms Fox's perceived flaws in her writing,
were gone over by Megan and myself. It makes me wonder once again
how Ms Fox could get so many things wrong unless it was
intentional.

I could give a tinker's damn about the belief system of Ms Fox
and the contradiction of open mindedness of Life Magazine. In
March 1997 I came to the realization that what had happened to
me and others was real. I don't ask for anyone to believe me. I
have always stated, "Look, Listen, Learn, but Make Up Your Own
Mind." Use the gift of free will that was bestowed on you at
birth. I only ask and wish that I be allowed to express my
belief system without being made to look like a fool. Neither Ms
Fox or Life Magazine allowed this to happen.

When I am attacked, I will respond unerringly with the resources
at my disposal.

A few extra things,

The last paragraph of Ms Fox's article is also filled with many
inaccuracies. The field co-owner does not practice the faith of
the Native Americans that once lived there. The person who
handled UFO reports in Vietnam did not handle UFO reports,
except one from the helicopter crew he commanded. I had him as a
guest on the radio program and he described the event in detail.
This person is also a Certified Hynotherapist, and has a degree
in Psychology. I talked to the person she calls "The Moonshine
Man." I asked him point blank if he ever said that he went out
drinking moonshine and skywatching. His answer was a flat out
"No!" I have known this man since 1997, and I consider him a
good friend, honest and very credible. Once again it is not my
group.

"The number of Americans who say they have been abducted is
"staggering," says one St. Louis psychiatrist. Harvard Medical
School's John Mack has treated hundreds and has a new book
out.", Cynthia Fox wrote,

Ms Fox conveniently left out that Dr. Mack is a Pulitzer Prize
winner and an ardent strong believer that the abductions are
real. Dr. Mack also formed a group that is highly respected in
this field that does continuing investigations into the
abduction phenomenon. Ms Fox's wording here seems to suggest
that abductee's have a mental disorder that needs to be treated,
in what manner and in what way, she does not say.

"Yet the view from above is of such an ancient, awe-inspiring,
genuinely alien nowhere. Why would Roswell bother to tip a
Stetson to UFOs, let alone worship the gaudy, dubious things?"

"Anyone driven around by the town's fast talking convention
center director isn't kept in the dark for long."

"The perfect rows of spindly pecan trees he is passing are
beautiful, but their resemblance to cemetery crosses is apt. The
stucco ranches are low to the ground and camouflaged in the
pastels of the New Mexico sky, as if deferring to the chili and
alfalfa fields that once sustained them. But beautiful nowheres
are in jeopardy. Farming is no longer enough, and Roswell's
military base closed in 1967."

"On to the International UFO Museum, which occupies the
smalltown place of honor--an old movie theater. Inside, it
resembles the warehouse headquarters for an FBI sting:"

"The gift shop (alien bottled water, alien underwear, the book
The Aliens and the Scalpel by a podiatrist who surgically
removes alien implants) takes in $1 million a year. Nearby, in
Alien Zone (aliens-in-a-jar), Demi Moore's kids posed for photos
with stuffed alienettes. Aliens built five motels. Roswell cares
about aliens because we care about aliens. One reason we care:
They're cute."

MS Fox wrote the above words about the town and people of
Roswell, NM. After reading Mr. Friedman's editor's notes, I have
to wonder if Ms Fox and Mr. Friedman didn't collaborate on Ms
Fox's article. If you remember Mr. Friedman mentioned something
about Roswell "abducting tourists " into its UFO museums, in a
way to suggest that there might be some diabolical trap from
which there is no escape. I find it ironic that all cities pride
part of their rich heritage on their museums, but using the
words "abducting tourists," seems to indicate underlying
sinister overtones.

Ms Fox paints a very gloomy portrait of Roswell. She uses such
words as "genuinely alien nowhere" and referring to the
beautiful pecan trees "but their resemblance to cemetery crosses
is apt." Her description of the International UFO Museum that
"resembles the warehouse headquarters for an FBI sting" gives
the illusion that maybe crime is rampant in Roswell. She depicts
the museum as selling gaudy items to the abducted tourist such
as, "alien bottled water and alien underwear" etc. She makes a
point to tell how much money the museum makes in a year from
selling such items as if making a living were a crime.

I would highly suggest that Ms Fox visit the Huntsville Space
and Rocket Center in Huntsville, AL. This is a NASA facility,
and my daughter just last year bought me an Alien Fountain Pen
from their gift shop on a school field trip. Ms Fox, alien items
are a hot seller these days. Many well known and respected
stores are selling Alien and UFO related items. Look around, and
then ask yourself "Why?"

"Many psychiatrists think alien abduction is actually sleep
paralysis--when we wake still paralyzed in a REM stage and feel
terror, convinced of menacing presences.", Cynthia Fox wrote,

I have just one question. I want to ask these esteemed
psychiatrists and Ms Fox. If sleep paralysis is what is really
happening to us abductees, then how in the world, when we can
not move, do we get all the strange marks upon our bodies during
this time period, and this is not including such things as
finding ourselves out doors, under the bed, pajamas placed on
backwards, leaves in the bed, dirt on our feet, etc.? How does
sleep paralysis explain the "Missing Time" experiences when we
are in our cars driving?

"Scientists can be like cats who spend hours pushing at doors
merely because they're closed. There is none of that methodical,
inarticulate stubbornness in Chris McKay. He's all emotive,
articulate stubbornness. For that reason he's a rough-hewn jewel
in the crown of the new NASA National Astrobiology Institute.",
Cynthia Fox wrote,

As I had written earlier, I have the utmost respect for Chris
McKay and the work he is doing. He is following the mainstream
thought process and not rocking the boat, and Ms Fox showered
him with glowing praise. For the rest of us, well, you read the
article. What do you think?

One last thing, Very Important,

The front cover of the March issue should have been a good hint
or dire warning as to the mindset of Life Magazine and the
article by Ms Fox about being open minded. Three young actors
are posing for the cover photo. These actors portray certain
characters in the TV series, Roswell. But the most interesting
thing about the front cover is not the actors themselves, but
the photo of UFO's that one is holding directly facing the
camera. I had seen that photo in a book and I went searching for
it. Low and behold but where did I find it? In a 1987 copyright
book, published by none other than Time-Life. The title is
called "The UFO Phenomenon" and was originally published as part
of the series, "Mysteries of the Unknown." On page 96 of this
book is the exact photo that the actor is holding on the front
cover, and according to the caption written in the book, the
photo is a fake. The photo first surfaced in 1962 supposedly
taken by three young boys in Sheffield, England. Project Blue
Book investigated the photo and uncovered no evidence that the
photo or negative had been altered. Project Blue Book cited a
lack of sufficient information to explain the objects in the
photo. Ten years later, it was revealed that the objects were
actually shapes painted on a windowpane. I have one more,
important question.

Why did Life, knowing the photo was a fake, place it on the
front cover if they were going to write an actual serious and
unbiased story on UFO's?

Sandy Nichols

WSmith51@aol.com












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   Feb > Feb 23

                     Re: olice See UFO Over Mexico City

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:16:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:42:56 -0500
Subject: Re: olice See UFO Over Mexico City


 >Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:31:31 -0600
 >From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >Subject: Police See UFO Over Mexico City
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >UFO over Mexico City

 >From: Newspaper 'El Universal', 2-15-2000

 >For one hour, 16 police officers could not believe what they
 >where seeing. In front of them at only three meters from the
 >ground a UFO, 10 meter in diameter with two strong lights of
 >different colors; red, green and blue, hovered for 30
 >seconds.

I'm confused ... for an *hour* or for "30 second" ??

If for an hour, why couldn't they take a single photo/video ??

(& this is Mexico, so I better not hear the "the Polaroid was
  in the trunk and the film was too cold" excuse...)

 >"El Universal" photographer, Saul Navarro, took two pictures of
 >the UFO and his report coincides those of the police.

Where are the URLs?  I mean, hello...  The thing was 10 feet
off the ground, hovering for an extended period of time ...

These should be the clearest photos ever!

Please point me in the right direction.

Thank you very much.

Ron











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   Feb > Feb 23

              An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 02:54:52 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:47:03 -0500
Subject: An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress


 >Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:45:35 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 00:16:44 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 15:58:21 -0500 (EST)
 >>>From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com>
 >>>Subject: An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress

<snip>

 >>Naturally when you present the evidence that the guy is full of
 >>absolute crap, the people who invited him will then make some
 >>remark like "well, its not proven to our satisfaction" and or
 >>"well we must keep an open mind and hear from all points of
 >>view.."

 >This has _never_ been a problem with me. Just as an example, I
 >have been full of absolute crap often, and it never got me an
 >invite to speak at some conference. I've always had to have my
 >own conference to speak at. An' nobody came. (sniffles)

Ah, but you weren't telling the right story, say about being
part of some secret gov agency, or helped build underground
bases for space aliens, or better yet, have alleged sources
whose information is considered to be "top drawer", "never wrong
yet," "never told a like in their life," etc etc.

 >><snip>

 >>>Additionally, there is no evidence to support the claims made by
 >>>Jonathan Reed. Unless Mr. Reed can provide any reasonable
 >>>corroborating evidence to support his biography and that of his

 >Why do so many people on this list worry so damned much about
 >supporting biographies and Curriculum Vitae? Huh? Doesn't what
 >the dude have to say matter much more than his CV?

If the supporting biographies that the speaker provides do not
even check out, why should anybody believe anything the guy has
to say? Then the speaker has as much credibility as the local
fiction story telling club, who amuse each other with tales of
fiction.

Of course, who knows. Perhaps people in the UFO community want
to be amused with interesting tales of fiction.

<snip>

 >Dear Robert, Errol and all you ex spurts out there in the ether:

 >Who are we to determine who is righteous enough to speak our
 >minds and who are not? Seems that is the purview of those who
 >put on the show.

Thats seems to sum it all up. A "show." As to who speaks its not
a determination of who is righteous, but more of a credibility
determination. If the guys own supplied resume is a total fake,
it would suggest that his entire tale is phoney. Remember the so
called NASA consultant who was unloading tale after tale, even
made it on the Art Bell show? People started investigating his
background related claims and discovered they were all phony.
When confronted, he admitted that everything he said was phony
from the get go.

I guess the people really enjoyed that show until the final act
when they found out they were hearing and watching fiction.

If people in the UFO community enjoy being entertained by
fiction, I am sure we could line up a number of speakers with
admittedly fictional storys to tell.


Cheers,

Robert








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   Feb > Feb 23

                         Re: The Book 'Above Black'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:50:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:50:57 -0500
Subject: Re: The Book 'Above Black'


 >Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:33:46 -0800
 >From: Nancy Davidson <nld1@ix.netcom.com>
 >Subject: The Book 'Above Black'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Hi,

 >I was wondering if anyone has read the book "Above Black" by Dan
 >Sherman.  If they have, what is their opinion of the book?

 >The book sounds interesting; but, I was wondering is Dan Sherman
 >a legimate author?


Hi,

I belive so. I've researched Dan's story for about three years.
Every objective facet of his account has 'checked=out'. One
source, a retired AT&T marketing executive who worked in 'black'
programs, corroborated the existence of 'Project Preserve
Destiny'.

I think it is surprising that mainstream UFO folks have ignored
this remarkable book.



--
Best Regards,
Bob Huff
"Given a choice between two theories, take the one which is funnier."

--







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   Feb > Feb 23

               Re: 'Alien Hand' Syndrome Turns Limbs Monstrous

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 02:12:05 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:54:20 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Alien Hand' Syndrome Turns Limbs Monstrous


 >Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:24:36 +0100
 >From: Jeroen Kumeling <ufonet@xs4all.nl>
 >Subject: 'Alien Hand' Syndrome Turns Limbs Monstrous
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>,

 >Source: http://www.sightings.com/politics6/hand.htm

 >'Alien Hand' Syndrome Turns Limbs Monstrous
 >By E.J. Mundell
 >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000221/hl/dsb_51.html

<snip>

Dear Jeroen:

Many years ago, there was a pupil in my Father's biology class
with symptoms exactly as described above.

This poor boy would lose control of not one hand, but sometimes
both hands, and even his feet at times.

They would literally "try to walk away" from him. Otherwise a
fairly sensible person, it were as if his hands and feet became
"possessed".

While this is clearly a mental disorder of some kind, I suppose
it is neurological as suggested, rather than psychotic in the
ordinary sense.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









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   Feb > Feb 23

                           Re: Stewart & Friedman

From: Roger Annette Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 06:59:29 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:01:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman

 >From: GT McCoy
 >Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:33:34 -0800
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:26:49 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman


 >>Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 09:57:33 -0400
 >>From: Stanton T. Friedman
 >>Subject: Re: Stewart & Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto

Previously, GT wrote:

 >I've noticed a trend, in these types, the accuser surfaces,
 >attacks, then submurges, as in Ed Stewart, who apparently took
 >the marbles and went home - to his credit apologizing to Stan,
 >although Stan deserves his aggie back!

<snip>

 >My opinion: ," Just because you are parinoid
 >doesn't mean anyone
 >isn't out to get you." yet I wonder who are the"
 >Kollective
 >Klowns" that seem to thwart the answer one way or
 >the other.


Hi GT!

Actually, I consider paranoia simply a heightened
state of awareness. :)

Regarding yahoos out to do battle with the world; most, I
believe, just want to be acknowledged as being "right" about
something, anything. Their arguments exist for the sake of
argument only. In the case of "Dr." Reed, I'm sure he calculated
a small profit margin for his charade. Whether he makes it or
not is academic; it represents a chance to become famous and
take as much advantage as his 15 minutes will allow.

later,

Roger








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   Feb > Feb 23

                             Great Balls Of Fire

From: Kelly <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:20:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:13:14 -0500
Subject: Great Balls Of Fire


Source: Daily Record and Sunday Mail

http://www.ic24.net/mgn/DAILY_RECORD/NEWS/P17S5.html


GREAT BALLS OF FIRE

Climbers are zapped by blast of lightning

Two Scots climbers fled in terror from a storm-swept mountain
after they were struck by a ball of lightning.

Jeff Smith, 39, and Heather Morton-Lloyd, 35, ran for their
lives after being zapped by the "dazzling, bluish-white"
fireball of pure electricity - which vanished with a deafening
explosion.

Now their experience on top of 3192ft Ben Lomond has got
scientists buzzing.

Ball lightning is extremely rare and only reported twice a year
in the UK.

Jeff, of Kincardine, Fife, said: "The conditions were terrible.
There were 60mph gusts of wind and it was minus five, in a
blizzard.

"We reached the summit and went up to the triangulation point
where there's a wee metal plate.

"I just touched it and immediately got an electric shock. The
next thing this flaming ball came whizzing down and went zooming
past us and we both got another shock right through our bodies.

"This orb was about half the size of football. It was a
dazzling, bluish-white. It came straight down, touched us and
flew off at an angle.

"What was frightening was the tremendous noise that shook us off
our feet. It was like a sonic boom and totally stunned us."

Heather added: "We got the hell out of there as quickly as we
could. It was so unexpected that we moved as fast as our legs
could carry us."

Dr Terence Meaden, of the Bradford-upon-Avon based Tornado and
Storm Research Organisation, said: "They could have been killed
and then no one would have known their story.

"What they have reported is authentic and we will be in touch."









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                    Ball Lightning - Personal Experience

From: Kelly <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:45:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:19:24 -0500
Subject: Ball Lightning - Personal Experience


I posted to the List:


 >Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:20:39 -0500
 >From: Kelly <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
 >Subject: Great Balls Of Fire
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >[Daily Record and Sunday Mail]

 >GREAT BALLS OF FIRE


That is a really interesting article.  I know I told the list
years ago about my experience with ball lightning and I found
some interesting correlations with this story.

First, to remind people of what happened I was babysitting at my
sister's house in the country.  It was getting late, and the dog
wanted out, and it had just finished storming - a rain storm, it
was in the autumn.  The clouds were still low and you heard rain
drops dripping off trees to the leaves on the ground.

Anyway, I opened the slidding glass doors to the backyard onto
the deck. So the frame of the slidding doors are metal.  As I
pulled the door open I immediately noticed a little shower of
red sparks that seemed to shoot out of the metal track at the
bottom of the door frame and then - well, there three little
balls of light about five inches above the deck.  The were about
the size of golf balls, and a very pale greenish colour - more
white with a pale-green glow.  They were *luminous* and
obviously electrical.  Then they just *poof!* disappeared.

There was no sound associated with them, either when I watched
them or when they disappeared, and although they were just
floating there, they didn't really move much.

The solarium where I was was had electrcial floorboard heating,
and I was concerned that an electrical short of some type had
taken place, but when I checked, the heating system wasn't
turned on.

I searched all over the room, worried about the sparks that had
preceeded everything but found no evidence of fire.

So, now I am thinking that perhaps touching the metal frame of
the door, and the friction of pulling it open somehow triggered
the sparks (I even then looked for Maple keys or other
combustable material on the metal track but found nothing).

I sure wouldn't want to see a bigger ball lightning like these
people did!  You could tell looking at them that they were
dangerous in an electrical way, although they were *very*
beautiful.  Even the dog, who was a huge puppy at the time, had
enough sense not to move towards them. He stopped with me as
soon as he saw them too - although normally the dog just
*rushed* outside.

Maybe the storm (and there had been thunder and regular
ligthning) charged the air somehow?  And it was a cool autumn
night, - nowhere near as cold as the blizzard these people
experienced.

So, I dont know. I wonder if anyone else has reported seeing red
sparks just before seeing ball lightning, and I wonder if
touching something metal acts as a - what's that word?
conducer?

Kelly









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   Feb > Feb 23

                           Re: My Lunch with MJ12

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:28:59 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:14:58 -0500
Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12


 >Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:08:18 -0600 (CST)
 >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
 >Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

Good Afternoon Brian

 >>Hi Bob, All

 >>Is it me, or when people spout-off like this, it all too often
 >>sounds like 'gospel' and "you'd better not question me about it."?

 >>Now I do not mean to slander you Bob, but can you prove any of
 >>this? And I mean _any_ of it?

 >I have no opinion pro or con on Bob's SARGON and his tale, but
 >I do have a question for you Sean on how you would handle info
 >obtained in the same way.

 >What if someone whose word you trusted told you, on condition of
 >complete anonymity (perhaps his life was at stake), a tale like
 >SARGON's?  Someone whose integrity you had no cause to doubt.

 >What would you do with it?  Sit on it?  Smile to yourself as you
 >watched the list folk debate endlessly about Roswell debris and
 >film?

 >Or would you pass it on as yet another anonymous anecdote from a
 >"SARGON", hoping that the info might eventually be backed up in
 >part from other sources, other reports, and maybe lead to some
 >real answers?  Knowing of course that you weren't in any
 >position to offer "proof" to anyone, not without putting your
 >contact in deep muck.

 >Interesting dilemma.  And one of the reasons this field is so
 >exhasperating.

Brian, you raise an interesting dilemma. I personally feel that
any anecdotal information is not fact. Therefore a non-fact is
as useless as as banana.

Pretty harsh, but this is not a forgiving game is it. I would
ask you how many anecdotal stories make it fact? 1, 10, 100,
1000? Answer, _none_. Unless there are facts to support a
_story_ it remains a _story_, it is as simple as that.

All I am saying in this case, is this another, "This is gospel
and you dare not question me" _story_ or is it something that
can be supported by _some_ backing.

--
    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/









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                           Re: My Lunch with MJ12

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:53:42 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:18:59 -0500
Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12


 >Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 19:21:25 -0500
 >From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net>
 >Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Good Afternoon Bob

 >>>Now I do not mean to slander you Bob, but can you prove any of
 >>>this? And I mean _any_ of it?

Try not to forget this bit.


 >Maybe my background can help place my lunch and sources within
 >context.

 >I have lived in Northern Virginia for almost 20 yeas and
 >Northern VA is at the confluence of these event and agencies. In
 >those 20 years I have established many contacts with the
 >military and intelligence committees. Because I have worked with
 >advance technologies and being a West Point graduate, I have had
 >some 'paved' entrees to people who have been directly involved
 >in the Government's UFO program.

Pray tell, and I don't mean to sound condescending here, how
does your background make any difference in _proving_ your
_story_? I mean no disrespect when I say, anyone here can say
whatever they want to add weight to who they are, but what
difference does it make in substantiating a _story_?

 >I have no physical evidence of MJ12's existence just enough
 >antidotal evidence to prove to my satisfaction the certainty of
 >their existence. I have chosen to share this information.

Now with regard to my first comment on this missive, have you
got _any_ proof that you can offer (here or elsewhere) that can
_prove_ any of what you said? You said here, no physical, but
enough anecdotal evidence for you.

In most cases where there is physical evidence, i.e. the MJ12
docs, they are hotly contested as to their authenticity.
Therefore how can a unsubstantiated story _prove_ anything?

 >I understand the cynical attitude shown here. However, how is
 >this 'field' ever to progress if it rejects 'new' findings out
 >of hand?

Cynicism borne of frustration.

 >"There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action."
 >-Goethe

How about as frightening as gullible?


--
    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/









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                         Alien Invasion Week on TLC

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:07:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:18:31 -0500
Subject: Alien Invasion Week on TLC


I have been notified that TLC will be broadcasting a series of
UFO programs beginning Sunday, March 5, at 9PM Eastern.

Parts of an interview I did with the producers of the first two
programs will appear in the March 5 show entitled "Saucer Tech".

My interview was filmed with a number of others at Budd Hopkins'
Abduction Conference in NY last April or so.

Perhaps others on the list can fill in information as to who
else will be in which shows. I have been told that TLC does very
little advance promotion.

Stanton Friedman









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                           Re: My Lunch with MJ12

From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:41:06 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:20:51 -0500
Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12


 >Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:34:22 -0500
 >From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net>
 >Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:59:44 -0600
 >>From: John Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
 >>Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 19:21:25 -0500
 >>>From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: My Lunch with MJ12
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>I have no physical evidence of MJ12's existence just enough
 >>>antidotal evidence to prove to my satisfaction the certainty of
 >>>their existence. ...

 >>Bob,

 >>What's your 'antidote' for acting as a gullible shill for myth
 >>makers and tall tale tellers?  A gullible mind is a terrible
 >>thing to waste.
 >Hi John,

 >My anecdotal -- sorry my spell check finger slipped earlier --
 >is convincing to this gullible shill because of the taxonomy of
 >the information ferreted from disparate sources. Pls see
 >'Reality of MJ12' posting.

 >BTW, do you always so readily disparage someone you do not know?


Dear Mr. Huff,


I agree that it is unfruitful to disparage someone without any
information about the person. There is too much negativism in
Ufology.

The point remains however whether you can make your references
to MJ12 in any way credible. Revealing the identity of the
people you spoke to cannot be asked of you and this makes it
impossible for you to prove that these conversations took place,
let alone prove that the statements by these people are true.

But for starters, would you reveal more about your own identity.
How is it that in the course of your research, or your career,
you have run into no less than five people who have been
directly or indirectly involved with MJ12? I know of no person
who has had such exposure, though indirect, to this alleged
secret organization.


Groeten,

Henny







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                     Re: Police See UFO Over Mexico City

From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:44:38 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:42:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Police See UFO Over Mexico City


 >Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:16:50 -0500
 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >Subject: Re: Police See UFO Over Mexico City
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:31:31 -0600
 >>From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >>Subject: Police See UFO Over Mexico City
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>UFO over Mexico City

 >>From: Newspaper 'El Universal', 2-15-2000

 >>For one hour, 16 police officers could not believe what they
 >>where seeing. In front of them at only three meters from the
 >>ground a UFO, 10 meter in diameter with two strong lights of
 >>different colors; red, green and blue, hovered for 30
 >>seconds.

 >I'm confused ... for an *hour* or for "30 second" ??

 >If for an hour, why couldn't they take a single photo/video ??

 >(& this is Mexico, so I better not hear the "the Polaroid was
 >in the trunk and the film was too cold" excuse...)

 >>"El Universal" photographer, Saul Navarro, took two pictures of
 >>the UFO and his report coincides those of the police.

 >Where are the URLs?  I mean, hello...  The thing was 10 feet
 >off the ground, hovering for an extended period of time ...

 >These should be the clearest photos ever!

 >Please point me in the right direction.


Total sighting was one hour, from 2.13 am to 3.13 am., divided
in three different reports; First: 30 second. Second: 3 minutes,
and the Third: 12 minutes. Same UFO (according to police).

Sources:
Newspaper "El Universal" web: http://www.el-universal.com.mx/

EFE Cable web: http://endi.zonai.com/ultimahora/html/ovnis14.html

We are trying to get more data from investigators in Mexico City.

 From Miami, Florida

Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/ufomiami/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/index.html












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                 Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:17:25 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:50:33 -0500
Subject: Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO


 >Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 02:54:52 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >If the supporting biographies that the speaker provides do not
 >even check out, why should anybody believe anything the guy has
 >to say? Then the speaker has as much credibility as the local
 >fiction story telling club, who amuse each other with tales of
 >fiction.

 >Of course, who knows. Perhaps people in the UFO community want
 >to be amused with interesting tales of fiction.

<snip>

 >Thats seems to sum it all up. A "show." As to who speaks its not
 >a determination of who is righteous, but more of a credibility
 >determination. If the guys own supplied resume is a total fake,
 >it would suggest that his entire tale is phoney. Remember the so
 >called NASA consultant who was unloading tale after tale, even
 >made it on the Art Bell show? People started investigating his
 >background related claims and discovered they were all phony.
 >When confronted, he admitted that everything he said was phony
 >from the get go.

That was the "WOW" signal Robert. Good man! You win both the
Gripple and the brass... ring, that is. "Finally, the truth
about the truth revealed!"

A show! What it is, bro. A freakin freak show. These are
mostly _all_ freak shows are they not? In the minds of many
citizens and denizens in this field of study, it's all about
putting on a show, selling a book or making it on the Farfel
Funny Show, broadcast live on the Internet and on the Schmuck
Radio Network.

Truth is, those few who are righteous are buried in the noise.
Rense, Bruce-Knapp, a few others. But them listeners want the
show. _The_Show_! It must go on. People rant and they rave, but
in the end it's the misfits in the society of ufology who make
all the noise. So much noise that you cannot ferret out the
signal.

Good man, Robert Gates! You win. Wait for your present of
Gripple an' Cream in the male. Say, you ain't related to that
other Gates are you? _If_ you are, I could use a few hunnert
grand for a show of me own.

 >I guess the people really enjoyed that show until the final act
 >when they found out they were hearing and watching fiction.

 >If people in the UFO community enjoy being entertained by
 >fiction, I am sure we could line up a number of speakers with
 >admittedly fictional storys to tell.


Dear Robert and all the ships at sea;

The letter "P" on the computer keyboard is way over on the top
right. The letter "T" is nearly in the middle. Just to the left
of middle. This was planned out by the best minds so that no
mistake could possibly be made when writing the word "ship!"
Which would be a tad embarrassing. But on the keyboards of one
too many people in the field of UFO and abduction research, that
mistake is made often. Did ya ever wonder why that is?

Jim Mortellaro






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                       Re: Alien Invasion Week on TLC

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:35:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:51:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Alien Invasion Week on TLC


 >Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:07:29 -0400
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Alien Invasion Week on TLC
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >I have been notified that TLC will be broadcasting a series of
 >UFO programs beginning Sunday, March 5, at 9PM Eastern.

 >Parts of an interview I did with the producers of the first two
 >programs will appear in the March 5 show entitled "Saucer Tech".

 >My interview was filmed with a number of others at Budd Hopkins'
 >Abduction Conference in NY last April or so.

 >Perhaps others on the list can fill in information as to who
 >else will be in which shows. I have been told that TLC does very
 >little advance promotion.


Hi Stan,

I don't have cable. Could you please let me know if I appear in
any of this? I was not asked to sign any releases nor did I sign
any. If I'm in there -anywhere- they've got some last minute
editing to do.

Thanx,

John Velez








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                        Off-Line 'Til Monday 28th, PM

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 17:57:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 17:57:20 -0500
Subject: Off-Line 'Til Monday 28th, PM


UFO UpDates will be off-line as of this evening
thru' until Monday evening, Eastern.

Please hold your mail until Sunday evening.

Errol Bruce-Knapp,
Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto






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                   C-E: O'Reily Factor - Fox News Channel

From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:10:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:23:39 -0500
Subject: C-E: O'Reily Factor - Fox News Channel

To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
:

:
:
:
:
:
:

Tonight at 8:00 p.m. E.D.T. on Fox News Channel, there is to be a discussion
of recent UFO sightings. The program will repeat at 11:00 p.m. E.D.T., the
program is called "The O'Reily Factor."

ky
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/







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                     Oberg on 'Space Shuttle UFO Videos'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:31:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:31:47 -0500
Subject: Oberg on 'Space Shuttle UFO Videos'




From: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca>

Source: Skeptical Inquirer Electronic Digest 2-22-00

http://www.csicop.org/list/listarchive/msg00018.html


Skeptical Inquirer Electronic Digest, Feb. 22, 2000

Visit the CSICOP and Skeptical Inquirer Magazine website at
http://www.csicop.org. Receiving over 200,000 hits per year, the
CSICOP site was rated one of the top ten science sites by HOMEPC
magazine.

In this week's SI DIGEST:

--NASA Consultant James Oberg on the "Space Shuttle UFO Videos"


NASA CONSULTANT JAMES OBERG ON THE "SPACE SHUTTLE UFO VIDEOS"

Videotapes from space shuttle missions have persuaded some to
claim that NASA astronauts have encountered alien visitors. On
the space shuttle mission STS-48 in September 1991, a TV onboard
Discovery spotted moving white dots suddenly changing direction
when a flash of light appeared. Although nearby debris
frequently appears on shuttle videos, the combination of flares,
streaks and changing directions grabbed imaginations.

James Oberg, a 22-year veteran of NASA's Mission Control in
Houston, contributes the following commentary to SI DIGEST on
the alleged shuttle videos. He is a space consultant for ABC
News and a space writer for United Press International.

For more information on the topic, also read his commentary on
the ABC news web site at;

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/ufo990217.html

or visit Oberg's web site at http://www.jamesoberg.com

 From Oberg:

"From hints I've gotten from people involved, these "new" videos
allegedly show miles-wide UFOs passing behind the deployed
tether on shuttle mission STS-75 (February 1996), and a
night-time fly-past of a camera on STS-96 (May 1999).

It's easy to speculate wildly about such apparitions as long as
you deliberately keep yourself and your audience in ignorance of
the most basic facts about space shuttle missions. At all costs,
avoid asking the actual witnesses -- the astronauts and the
specialists in Mission Control -- what they saw or thought about
such events. Make smart-sounding 'guesses' about the situation
on the shuttle, but never ever find out which cameras were
involved, what direction the shuttle was pointed, what the
lighting conditions were (natural and artificial), and so forth.

Then you'll be safe to theorize and to make dark allegations of
evil coverups.

Authentic investigations of these kinds of apparitions -- most
notoriously from STS-48 in 1991 and STS-80 in 1996, but also on
STS-63 in 1995 and on other flights -- shows a striking and
highly suggestive pattern. The white dots appear when the
shuttle moves into sunlight, or slightly afterwards as the small
nearby objects drift out of the shuttle's own shadow. They move
in straight lines except when shuttle thrusters fire, as
documented by telemetry and synchronized with time-tagged tapes
of the motion, or when the shuttle camera is pan/tilting, or
when they drift near the edge of the wide-angle camera lenses.
In other words, the dots appear to act exactly like small
spaceship-derived debris is expected to act, and has been seen
to act for nearly forty years.

Sometimes the B&W cameras aren't properly focused, and the dots
-- along with background stars -- look like horizontal smears,
or even -- if very bright -- as donuts with the bright centers
grayed-out (the same camera behavior can be seen in lightning
bursts and when passing over bright cities). Fast-moving dots --
and even background stars, when the camera is pan/tilting
rapidly -- leave streaks on the image due to latency on the
optical sensors. Flakes of ice which slowly tumble will flash
regularly.

Thirty years ago, NASA commissioned a study to catalog and
identify dots in out-the-window views from Apollo, to determine
if they were indications of hazards to the spacecraft (such as
leaks from jets, or lost hardware). Astronauts joked about these
"moon pigeons", but they turned out to be spacecraft-derived
debris, either ice or pyrotechnic fragments or flaking
insulation. The shuttle has even more sources of 'shuttle
dandruff' and under the proper lighting conditions, such dots
can often be seen all around the spacecraft.

None of these dots has said "hello", yet, nor taken hostile or
evasive action, despite the fertile imaginations -- deliberately
unbounded by hard realities -- of proponents of
extraordinariness for such entirely prosaic space phenomena.

The STS-96 fly-past, for example, looks like a nearby (and hence
out-of-focus) piece of shuttle payload bay debris, illuminated
by the lights of the shuttle as it drifts in front of one of the
cameras. The STS-75 video also appears to show very nearby
objects passing in front of the tether far behind them -- the
pixel resolution is nowhere near good enough to justify
concluding the objects can be seen passing BEHIND the tether.

<snip>

________________________

SI Electronic Digest is the biweekly e-mail news update of the
Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the
Paranormal (CSICOP.)

Visit http://www.csicop.org/.

Rated one of the Top Ten Science sites on the Web by HOMEPC magazine.

The Digest is written and edited by Matthew Nisbet and Barry
Karr. SI Digest is distributed directly via e-mail to over 3000
readers worldwide, and is sent from CSICOP headquarters at the
Center for Inquiry-International, Amherst NY, USA.

To subscribe for free to the SI DIGEST, go to:
http://www.csicop.org/list/

PERMISSION IS GRANTED TO REPRINT OR REPOST ON THE WEB.
WE ENCOURAGE TRANSLATION INTO OTHER LANGUAGES.
PLEASE FORWARD TO YOUR FRIENDS.

Send comments, media inquiries and news to:
SINISBET@aol.com (716-636-1425 x217)

CSICOP publishes the bimonthly SKEPTICAL INQUIRER, The Magazine
for Science and Reason.  The Jan/Feg 2000 issue features
articles on the ten outstanding skeptics of the twentieth
century, religious traditionalism and paranormal belief, the
second coming of jesus, and the pseudoscience of oxygen therapy.

To subscribe at the $18.95 introductory Internet price, go to:
http://www.csicop.org/si/subscribe/

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                 Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO

From: Kathleen Anderson <KAnder6444@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 01:11:15 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:14:41 -0500
Subject: Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO


 >Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 02:54:52 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:45:35 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: An Open Letter to the International UFO Congress
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Why do so many people on this list worry so damned much about
 >supporting biographies and Curriculum Vitae? Huh? Doesn't what
 >the dude have to say matter much more than his CV?
 >Who are we to determine who is righteous enough to speak our
 > minds and who are not? Seems that is the purview of those who
 >put on the show.

Sorry, not sure which comment is yours Jim. I am airing my
opinion for these reasons. And I am in agreement with Robert.

Mr. Reed has never clarified "whom/who" he spoke with at MUFON
in Seattle. As State Section Director I remain clueless. If it
was National UFO Reporting Center and Peter Davenport, that
doesn't work as he was out of the country. There are those that
have contacted the University of Washington and no one can find
a Dr. Reed ever working there. We can't even verify he's a
doctor.

What is so secretive about the location. I hike a lot and would
like to know the general area of the trail. What's to lose? I'd
get abducted so something?

I don't think titles make you an authority in the ufo field but
I take it very personal when someone makes up stories just to
get attention. It wastes my time and tests my patience and
trust. I am speaking in general here. It deludes serious
investigation and makes most of us look like a monkey's a#@.
Excuse my un ladylike language but I get rather irate when
feeling we are being played the fool.

Kathleen Andersen







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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 8

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:04:55 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:22:05 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 8


      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 5, Number 8
February 24, 2000
Editor: Joseph Trainor

Masinaigan@aol.com

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/

POLICE MOBILIZED AS UFO
HOVERS OVER MEXICO CITY

      On Monday, February 14, 2000, at about 2 a.m.,
Officers Javier Cedeno and Israel Valdivia of Unit (Car)
16156 of the Mexico City police were on routine
patrol in the Azcapotzalco section of the city when
they spotted a disc-shaped UFO hovering over a
futbol (soccer in the USA--J.T.) field on the grounds
of the Center of Technical Research and Investigation.
      According to the newspaper, Diario El Norte, the
two officers "described it as an object flying at low
altitude with flashing multicolored lights."
      "An alleged UFO seen in the early morning hours
by elements of the Secretariat of Public Safety led to
a sudden mobilization of police elements in the
northern section of the city."
      "The alleged UFO was seen by policemen from
Unit 16156, who claimed to have had it in plain sight.
The UFO was seen in a number of neighborhoods in
the Azcapotzalco and Gustavo A. Madero sections of
the city between 2:20 a.m. and 3 a.m."
      The UFO retreated "in a southerly direction behind
Cerro Tenayo (hill) in the municipality of Tlanepantla,
state of Mexico."
      According to Officers Cedeno and Valdivia, "the UFO
remained suspended in the air some 3 meters
(10 feet) over a futbol field located inside the Center
of Technical Research and Investigation behind
(Building) Vo-Tech Number 8 in the barrio Santo Tomas
(neighborhood)."
      "However, when (Mexican police) agents tried to
enter the building to reach the football field, they were
kept from doing so by members of the building's
security force."
      According to the newspaper El Universal, "sixteen
Mexican police officers converged on the building."
and saw the UFO "only three meters from the ground.
The OVNI (Spanish acronym for UFO--J.T.) was 10
meters (33 feet) in diameter with two strong lights of
different colors--red, green and blue.  It hovered for
30 seconds."
      "The first sighting occurred at 2:13 a.m." when
"Officers Juan Carlos Duenas and Israel Gutierrez
of Police Unit 16147 spotted the OVNI over the
Vocational (Vo-Tech) Number 8 building."
      "'Our watches stopped at exactly 2:20 a.m., when
the object disappeared,' one of the officers said."
      "Twenty-five minutes later, at 2:38 a.m.,Police
Unit 01127 reported via radio that they had seen the
OVNI over Colonia Palmititla, next to the Cerro
Chiquihuite (hill)."
      "Police Units 16079 and 16160 reported seeing the
OVNI in Azcapotzalco, and Units 01899, 01875 and 13843
reported seeing it in the Gustavo A. Madero section
of the city.  The last report was received at 3:13 a.m."
      "El Universal photographer Saul Navarro took two
pictures of the OVNI and his report agrees with those
of the police."
      "''I watched the UFO hover close to the ground.  It
couldn't have been an airplane.  Suddenly, it started
moving and stopped over a house.  It stayed there for
ten or fifteen seconds and then dropped behind some
trees,' Navarro said."  (See the Mexican newspapers
Diario El Norte for February 14, 2000 and El Universal
for February 15, 2000.  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales,
autor de los libros Chupacabras and Other Mysteries and
Forbidden Mexico, y Virgilio Sanchez Ocejo para esas
noticias.)

WOMAN SPOTS A UFO IN
ADELAIDE, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

      On Friday, February 18, 2000, at 6:15 p.m., Jean J.
was at her home in the Woodcroft section of Adelaide,
in the state of South Australia, when she saw an unusual
object pass overhead.
      "The UFO appeared from the south and headed east,"
Jean reported.  "I noticed a white ball-shaped object
following a commerical plane.  It didn't fly but rather
floated along behind the plane, slightly off to the left.
Keeping perfect speed and altitude.  It was like
nothing I'd ever seen before."
      She described the UFO as "a perfect large white
ball.  Unmarked.  No visible exit or entrance points
or windows of any kind.  It was going at the same
speed as a commerical plane.  I would like to know
if anyone else witnessed it and reported it to the
airport" in Adelaide.  (Email Form Report)

DISC-SHAPED UFO SEEN
IN NORTHERN ITALY

      On Thursday, February 10, 2000, at 9 p.m., a
woman in Pontelongo, a village 30 kilometers
(18 miles) from the city of Padova in northern
Italy, "was at her home and saw at a distance of
a hundred meters (330 feet) a disc that projected
a very strong light in the direction of her house."
      "'It was a bright orange color and the same
size as the moon,' the witness reported, 'It also
did not make any sound and was positioned at
several meters above the ground.'"
      The witness turned away briefly, and "several
moments later, when she tried to locate the strange
object again, she saw a glowing light in the sky
of the same magnitude as a large star."
      Padova is about 60 kilometers (48 miles)
southwest of Venezia (Venice).
      The previous evening, Wednesday, February 9,
2000, "a motorist traveling on the Autostrada
(Highway) Milano-Genova observed two luminous
objects of a bright orange color racing through the
sky at a great velocity.  The sighting took place
at 11:37 p.m.  It was last seen as a feeble point
of bluish-white light descending towards the east."
(Grazie a Alfredo Lissoni e Carlo Trimboli di Centro
Ufologico Nazionale d'Italia per questi rapporti.)

FALLING CHUNK OF ICE HITS
A MOVING TRUCK IN CANADA

      Last week Canada became the fourth country to
report a large chunk of ice falling from the sky.  And
this ice struck a pickup truck in motion in the city
of Medicine Hat, Alberta.
      The incident took place on Monday, February 14,
2000 in the Ross Glen section of Medicine Hat
(population 43,625), which is located approximately
178 miles (284 kilometers) east-southeast of Calgary.
      According to the Medicine Hat News of February 15,
2000, the truck's owner was driving past the Ross
Glen Elementary School when something slammed
into his truck.  Pulling over to the curb, the driver
found that a large piece of ice had struck and
penetrated the tough canvas truckbed cover.
      The ice chunk was described as about two
feet long, tapered and narrow at one end and blunt
at the other.  The truck driver reportedly has the
ice chunk and hopes to have it tested or analuzed.
      Previous ice falls have occurred in recent weeks
in Spain, Italy and the Netherlands.
(See the Medicine Hat News for February 15, 2000,
page one.  Many thanks to S.W. for this story.)
(Editor's Comment:  The number of ice falls during
the past month is unprecedented in history.  Earth
may be passing through a debris field in outer space
composed of giant chunks of ice.  I'm still waiting
for the one that has Charles Fort's image on it.)

FOUR UFOs SIGHTED IN
ROCKFORD, ILLINOIS

      On Wednesday, February 16, 2000, at 9:35 p.m.,
Robert C. was at his home in Rockford, Illinois
(population 140,000) when he heard his married
daughter Christy call out.
      "Last evening, my wife Fran and I babysat for
our grandsons," Bob reported.  "We do that quite
frequently to give our daughter Christy and her husband
Dave some personal time away from the children.  It
was about 9:35 p.m., and I had the garage door open.
I left the family room door open, and Christy yelled
for us to come outside."
      "I walked out into the driveway, and she was
pointing towards the sky and saying, 'Look at that!'
I looked in the direction she was pointing and saw
four large glowing objects traveling through the sky
towards the southeast."
      "The largest one moved to the right of the others
but continued in the same direction.  They began
flickering out one by one, and the largest one was
the last to flicker out.  They were high enough (above
the Earth--J.T.) to be in the sunlight.  I first saw them
when they were almost overhead and watched them
for about six minutes before they flickered away."
      Bobb added that the sighting was mentioned by
newsman Andy Gannon on station WIFR-TV,
Channel 23 in Rockford, a large city on Illinois
Highway 20 approximately 83 miles ((132 kilometers)
west of Chicago.  (Email Form Report)

STAR DUST--THE MYSTERY
DEEPENS

      On Tuesday, February 15, 2000, the Air Force
of Argentina dispatched a full-scale expedition to
Mount Tupungato, a lofty peak in the Andes
where the Star Dust, a British airliner with four
propellor engines, vanished back in 1947.
      The wrecked fuselage of the Star Dust and
two of its Rolls-Royce Merlin engines were
discovered in January by Juan Carlos Mouso,
an Argentinian aviation enthusiast, and mountain
climbers from the 11th Mountain Infantry Regiment.
      The purpose of the expedition is "to solve the
mystery of what caused a British Lancaster aircraft
to crash 53 years ago."  The Star Dust disappeared
in a snow squall over the Andes on August 2, 1947
while flying from Asuncion, Argentina to Santiago
de Chile, the last leg of its flight from London.
      The Star Dust was an Avro Lancaster Tudor,
which had been a Royal Air Force (RAF) heavy
bomber during World War II but was converted to
civilian use after the war.
      Eleven people were on board the aircraft,
including a crew of five and six passengers.
      The crew consisted of the pilot, Captain
Reginald Cook, a former RAF Bomber Command
pilot with hundreds of hours of experience flying
Lancasters; First Officer Norman Hilton-Cook;
Second Officer Donald Checklin; Radio Operator
Dennis Harmer and Stewardess Iris Adams.
      Among the passengers was Paul Simpson, 44,
a "King's Messenger," or personal diplomatic envoy
of King George VI (ffather of Queen Elizabeth II--J.T.)
      "'This is an expedition requested by the
investigating federal judge,'" Alfredo Manuel Rodriguez,
"'for a special Argentine armed forces patrol to find
the remains and clear up what caused the accident,'
said military spokeswoman Gabriela Cantinga."
      "The crash site, littered with the plane's
shattered fuselage and three frozen torsos was
only discovered in mid-January by a five-man team
traversing the 21,484-foot (6,500-meter) Tupungato
volcano in western Mendoza province," about 500
kilometers (300 miles) west of Buenos Aires, the
national capital.
      The wreckage is spread across a glacier on
Mount Tupungato at an altitude of about 17,600
feet (5,500 meters)
      "The cause of the disaster remains under
debate.  Official reports raised the possibility of
pilot negligence while others have theories that
it was a result of sabotage in a competitive airline
market."
      "'We've never really known what happened.
It's always been suspected from the very start
it was sabotage,' said John Parker, brother-in-law
of pilot Capt. Reginald Cook."
      "'It could have been engine failure or navigational
errior as well, of course,' said Parker who spoke to
Reuters from his home in Melbourne, England."
      "Strewn about the (crash) site are pieces from
two of the Rolls-Royce Merlin engines, a propellor,
woolen jackets, a shoe with RAF on the sole, green
berets presumably belonging to the crew and a
tattered passport."
      The remains of four humans were also found at
the site, leaving another seven unaccounted for.
Included in the seven is royal envoy Paul Simpson.
      Other theories concerning the Star Dust include
      (A) The Lancaster was struck by lightning.
      (B) The Lancaster was destroyed by a bomb
with a detonator rigged to go off when the aircraft
climbed above 22,000 feet.
      (C) The Lancaster was shot down by the
Saturn-shaped UFO seen at Bauru, Sao Paulo
state, Brazil ten days before the mishap.
      (D) Aboard the aircraft was Lieutenant Naomi
Selff, the U.S. Army nurse who reportedly told
mortician Glenn Dennis about the aliens being
autopsied at Roswell, New Mexico in July 1947.
      The mysterious mid-air explosion and crash
of the Star Dust took place one month after
the incident at Roswell.  (Many thanks to Jim
Hickman for this news story.)
(Editor's Comment:  Another possibility is that
the bomb was meant for the royal envoy.  Who
Killed Paul Simpson?  Sounds like a novel by
Agatha Christie.  Round up "the unusual suspects"--
Winston S. Churchill, Clement Attlee, Anthony Eden
and the Duke of Windsor.  Wow!  Hercule Poirot
would have a great time with this whodunit.)

ROUNDUP MYSTERY VAN
SEEN AGAIN IN TUCSON

      The mysterious white van with its high-tech
antenna array, Georgia license plates and
logo of UFO FIELD INTERCEPT TEAM on the
rear has once again been sighted in Tucson,
Arizona (population  405,370).
      On Wednesday, February 16, 2000, William
H. spotted the elusive white van just south of
Tucson.  Contacting UFO Roundup, Bill reported,
"I also spotted the van described on your website
in Tucson, Ariz. on February 16. at about 5:00 p.m.
MST (Mountain Standard Time--J.T.)  It was
eastbound on Valencia Road, which is south of
town and the main road to exit the Tucson
International Airport."
      "I also did not know of your website until I saw
the address on the back of the van."
      The white mystery van was first spotted in
Tucson on February 3, 2000.  An Arizona dentist
saw it at Park Mall.  For more details, refer to
UFO Roundup, Volume 5, Number 6, the issue for
February 10, 2000.
      Prior to that, the van was seen at a casino in
Lake Charles, Louisiana (population 70,500) in
October 1999.  For details, see UFO Roundup,
Volume 4, Number 27.
      The van was first spotted in Warsaw, Indiana
In July 1999.  For details, see UFO Roundup,
Volume 4, Number 16.
      The van's mission and the reason for its presence
in Arizona are unknown.
      "Again, I would like to remind everyone that
UFO Roundup does not own or operate this van,"
newsletter editor Joseph Trainor said.  "Its mission
is as much a mystery to us as it is to the people
who have seen it."
      The van is white with small dish antennae
arrayed on the roof and sides, plus the logo
UFO FIELD INTERCEPT TEAM in big black
letters on the rear, with the website address
http://ufoinfo.com/roundup in smaller black
letters just beneath the logo.  (Email Interview)

from the UFO Files...

1217: UNDER NEW
           OWNERSHIP

      Like California's Mount Shasta or Spain's
Mount Moncayo, Switzerland has a mystic
mountain of its very own.
      It's called Mount Pilatus, and it's located
in the Alps near Engelberg, about 59 kilometers
(37 miles) east of Bern, the national capital.
      Throughout the Middle Ages, there were
reports of gnomes (aliens?) living on the upper
slopes of Mount Pilatus.  These gnomes were
described as humanoids about one foot (0.3
meters) tall with snow-white hair, while long
beards flowed down over their breasts.  The
gnomes not only watched over the chamois
(goats) bounding from rock to rock but tended
the fish sporting in the depths of the mountain
streams."
      The strangest tale of the gnomes of Mount
Pilatus took place in the spring of the year 1217.
A teenaged girl named Magdalen was caring for
her widowed mother, who was confined to bed
with a serious illness.  With spring approaching,
Magdalen and her mother were nearly out of food.
She could see her mother growing weaker day by
day.  Finally, Magdalen decided to climb up to the
Kastelnalp, a high altitude cirque on Mount Pilatus,
and ask for help from Uncle Johann, her mother's
cousin.
      "Please, Uncle Johann, you must help us,"
Magdalen said, her shawl drawn about her shoulders
as she stood in the kitchen of her uncle's Alpine
chalet.  "We have neither food nor medicine in
the house.  Mother is deathly ill."
      Johann shook his head sadly.  "That is
unfortunate, my dear.  But there is nothing I can
do."
      "But-But you're her cousin," Magdalen touched
his sleeve.  "Her kinsman.  Surely you have a little
food to spare.  Perhaps a single cheese from your
storehouse?"
      Johann, "who had stored away cheese after
cheese in his cellars," merely shrugged.  "It's
been a hard winter for me, as well."  He sighed.
"That ne'er-do-well she married should have left
her better provided for."
      "Please, Uncle Johann, we need your help."
      "Your father was a good man, I'm told."  Unable
to face Magdalen, he turned away.  "Still...your
mother could have made a good marriage.  Instead
she chose to marry for love."  He shrugged again.
"Now she must live with the consequences."
      "Uncle Johann!  My mother will die unless you--"
      "I'm sorry, Magdalen," he said, opening the door.
"But there is nothing I can do."
      Johann "sent home Magdalen empty-handed and
in tears."
      "Overtaken on her way down the mountain by a
sudden thunderstorm, the girl sought shelter in the
hut of her lover, a herdsman to whom she confided
all her sorrows."
      "A generous, noble-hearted fellow, Alois no sooner
heard of his sweetheart's destitution then he ran to get
a small cheese, the only food he had in the house,
and forced her to accept it for her starving mother."
      Once the thunderstorm ended, "Magdalen set out
again with lightened heart, but her foot suddenly slipped
on the wet grass.  She let go of the precious cheese,
which, bounding from rock to rock, rolled over the edge
of a precipice (cliff)" and disappeared.
      "Magdalen's tears now flowed afresh.  But while she
sat there, wringing her hands in despair, she suddenly
felt a twitch at her dress."
      Looking down, Magdalen saw one of the gnomes
standing there.  The creature carried a leather cheese
pouch on his shoulder and held a bunch of medicinal
herbs in his hand.
      "Weep no more," the little humanoid said gently.
"The hard-hearted owner of the Kastelnalp shall be
punished for his refusal to help you.  In the meantime,
take these herbs, which will restore your mother's
health."  With a ghost of a smile, he added, "And I'm
sure you and your mother will enjoy this cheese."
      "The little man then vanished, leaving his gifts
behind him, and Magdalen hastened joyfully home."
      At home, she prepared "herb tea for the patient,
whose health was miraculously restored as soon
as she had tasted it."
      Opening the leather pouch, Magdalen found a
smooth golden cheese.  It reminded her of the
full moon the way it glowed.  Picking up a kitchen
knife, she tried to cut it.  But the blade failed to
penetrate.
      "This cheese is as hard as a rock," she told
her mother.
      "Maybe the knife needs sharpening, Magdalen.".
      "Wait a minute!  This is no cheese."  The girl's
voice trembled with amazement.  "Oh, my God!
Mother!  This is solid gold!"
      True enough.  "The cheese the kind-hearted
gnome had given her" was in reality "a solid lump
of pure gold.  She and her mother were so rich
with this treasure that they soon purchased the
Brundislalp, where Magdalen and Alois, a happy
husband and wife, tended their flocks together."
      But what of Uncle Johann?
      Meanwhile, back up at the Kastelnalp...
      Johann sat before the fireplace, engaging in
his favorite evening pastime.  Opening the strong
box and counting all the gold and silver coins
inside.  Soon he'd be adding to their number.
After all, everybody on Mount Pilatus was running
low on food, and Johann had plenty of cheese
to sell.
      All at once, he heard a strange noise coming
from outside.  A weird humming like a thousand
angry bees.  The sound seemed to be coming
from right above his thatched roof.
      Curious, Johann closed the strong box,
hid it under a blanket and, donning his heavy
woolen cloak, went outside.  A weird intermittent
blue light lit up the farmyard.
      As he peered upward, Johann's mouth fell open.
Hovering several meters above his chalet was
a giant silver disc.  The object's outer rim was
rapidly rotating.  Red, blue, green and white lights
pulsated on the craft's underside.
     "Gott in Himmel!" he muttered.
      A strange voice floated down from the craft.
"Hey, Johann!  How fast can you run?"
      How fast can I run!?  He blinked in confusion.
What kind of a question is that!?
      Just then, a sizzling bluish-white sphere
rocketed away from the huge saucer, heading
straight for the rocky peak of Mount Pilatus.
A future generation of moviegoers might call it a
photon torpedo.  But for Johann, there were
no words in his vocabulary to describe the
awesome phenomenon.
      The object struck the peak high on the
right side, obliterating a cliffside.  The blast
vibration rocked Johann on his heels.  The
entire peak lit up for several seconds.  The
noise of the explosion was like a physical
blow.  Yelling, Johann clapped his hands
over his ears.
      The blast died away into a low-throated
rumble.  The peak was dark once more.  The
saucer rose rapidly, vanishing amidst the bright
stars
      Jihann noticed that the ground beneath
his feet was still shaking.  He glanced at the
peak once more.  A cloud of dust wreathed
the summit.  The rumbling sound grew louder.
      And then the first gigantic boulder rolled
into the Kastelnalp.  The mammoth stone
smashed the barn into kindling and continued
rolling downslope, the vanguard of the landslide
caused the by the blast.  Rocks the size of
locomotives tumbled through Johann's farm,
crushing everything in their path.  Screaming
in terror, he turned tail and ran.
      The landslide "covered his alp with such a
mass of loose stones that that not a blade of
grass has ever been seen on it since."
      ""Besides this, a fragment of rock struck
the owner as he fled, and breaking both his legs,
left him so badly crippled that he never walked
without crutches again."
      The gnomes of Mount Pilatus are kind and
generous to the people under their protection.
But to their enemies, they show a slightly
different face.
      And if they ever ask you, "How fast can
you run?" don't just stand there, dreaming up
clever comebacks.  Run for it!
(See the book Legends of Switzerland by
H.A. Guerber, Dodd, Mead and Co., New York,
N.Y., 1899, pages 212 to 214.)

      We'll be back next week with more UFO and
paranormal news from around the planet, brought
to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup."
See you then!

UFO ROUNDUP: Ciopyright 2000 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
news items from UFO Roundup on their websites or
in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter
and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared.

*********************************************************
IMPORTANT Please Read:
======================

The Hunger Site
---------------
http://www.thehungersite.com

Every 3.6 seconds somebody starves to death. 3/4 of the
deaths are children under 5. By visiting the Hunger Site
and clicking on a button you can donate free food.

There is absolutely no charge to you for the donation -
the food is paid for by sponsors.

Do this once a day (no more) and help make a difference!
If you have a web site download a banner and give a link!
*********************************************************

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm


Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives of the UK UFO Network Bulletin,
AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences,
UFO + PSI Magazine also available, plus archives of
Filer's Files.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 29

                    Re: O'Reily Factor - Fox News Channel

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 21:34:11 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:25:54 -0500
Subject: Re: O'Reily Factor - Fox News Channel


UFO UpDates - Toronto wrote:

 >Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:10:34 -0500
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET>
 >Subject: O'Reily Factor - Fox News Channel
 >To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

 >Tonight at 8:00 p.m. E.D.T. on Fox News Channel, there is to
 >be a discussion of recent UFO sightings. The program will
 >repeat at 11:00 p.m. E.D.T., the program is called
 >'The O'Reily Factor'.


What a travesty it was, too.

Fox News made it sound as if they were going to report on the
Illinois sightings, but they pulled the old bait and switch
routine.

O'Reilly interviewed the author of "Rare Earth," which is a book
claiming that ET civlizations are unlikely. You can guess what
this guy's opinion was of this case and every other UFO case
that ever was.

That would have been fine with me if they had someone else on
the show as well, preferably an eyewitness as the promos seemed
to promise. But this guy peddling his book was the only person
interviewed.

O'Reilly asked him about the police officers who saw the object,
and he just said they ought to "move on". O'Reilly's response
to that was, essentially, "duh".

Another sterling report from 'Your Fair and Balanced' news
station.








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   Feb > Feb 29

                            Alfred's Odd Ode #340

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 05:33:40 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:27:06 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #340


Apology to MW #340 (For February 26, 2000)

Nothing is happening, has happened, or will, and LITTLE
precludes us from climbing our *hill* -- as the *field* is level
on which we would play, and a loss on its surface is righteous
and plain. Our government's moral and shoots a straight line,
and the church is the ticket to heaven refined, while we have
our sport for the truth that it brings as our *balls* charge
about on a throw or a swing.

The *rules* are in place, and they're justified TOO. They cut
the same way for the rich and poor, true. And we are a people
who don't get confused -- "tough love" for our brothers and
sisters contused. We are best served by police institutions,
enforcement of law will not add to confusion and science becomes
us, so noble it glistens, while trust is respected by ALL
institutions.

The rich don't get richer, they earn what they take. And nothing
is hidden, abstruse, or been faked. The claims of the fringe
raise a frivolous fuss -- no proof of conspiracies or  abuse of
the trust. All is as well as is well as can be, and the truth of
the world is what everyone sees. Were upright and moral and
clear in our eye, and we're fair -- evenhanded, up front and
don't lie.

Conspiracy's found in the shells of the nuts. Liberals quibble,
and then prove they've no guts. The water is clean and the air
to be breathed is as free of pollution as it's free of disease.
The Earth is not warming to threaten our poles. The hole in the
ozone's the hole in Art's nose, while the forests remain to be
used in due course, as the Bible has promised -- the faithful's
resource.

UFO's fabled, or seen to this day would have natural causes
explained well away, and exploited for gain by the thieves from
the fringe, who prey on the gullible and drive them unhinged,
they stand as a marker for weakness in kind and, and a loss of
ones sanity, or rational mind. The claims are ALL bogus and
shan't stand the scrutiny which hastens conditions that leads
this cult's mutiny.

We are ALONE in an aggregate sense. We're not detected -- and
"watchers" are nonsense. We stand apart from the natural sphere;
this MARKS our dominion and conquers our fear. We are the JEWEL
in this crown of creation. None have achieved all the glory;
we've paid. We can depend on ourselves and tradition to keep us
on courses for which we are MADE.

We have detected our gods and our devils. We know a God that is
loving and grateful. We have a *true* faith so unblemished and
sane, and it's made from a cloth we MUST sing in refrain!
Intolerance serves us (to keep the strain pure), and our ethics
condone it -- of that we are SURE. It's our faith and our trust
in our Father's insures that our mores reflect what a man does
is -- pure.

We have been BLAMELESS, and we have been FAIR. We are
COURAGEOUS! What's true's been declared! And we had the vision,
the talent and drive to wrest from cruel nature what allows us
to thrive. We are the champions! There's naught before us! We
*earn* what we take, and so take it we must as our clocks do the
ticking for us all alone; there's no one else out there; there's
no one else -- home.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com


--
~~~~
EXPLORE Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL.
http://www.alienview.com
                  **<Updated 26 February>**
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/witches/237/lehmberg.html

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got theirs) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at the
fundamentalist's stake.







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                          Filer's Files #08 -- 2000

From: Majorstar@aol.com
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 14:14:26 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:35:18 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #08 -- 2000


Filer's Files #08 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,  Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
February 25, 2000,  Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020
Web Site at www.filersfiles.com. -- Chuck Warren Webmaster.

UFO REPORTS DROP -- The number of UFO reports in the United
States dropped dramatically to less than 200 during December
and January compared to 400 reports in November.  Reports from
China dramatically increased with thousands seeing the UFOs
over major cities.  UFOs were also reported over Chechnya as
Russian troops continued their offensive.  We can speculate
that people in the US have been too busy to report sightings
and are enjoying the holidays.  Another factor is that our
military forces are relatively static with Congress cutting
appropriations to only two new F-22 Raptor fighter aircraft and
deactivating the 13th Airlift Squadron at McGuire Air Force
Base.  UFO interest in the state of Georgia where the Raptor is
manufactured has greatly slackened.  Conversely China is
developing new weapons that seem to be of interest to the UFOs.
Perhaps the UFOs have also headed south for the winter.  In the
last few weeks there does seem to be a slight pickup in new
reports from New Jersey, Illinois and New Mexico.  Although, we
can not verify all reports, like the Air Force we find more
than 20 percent are genuine unknowns.

NEW PHYSICAL EVIDENCE OF ABDUCTIONS

Nancy Talbot of BLT Research writes, "Last week's announcement
by Marilyn Ruben (Filer's Files #7) regarding the discovery of
trace material which has been found in the dust of
self-described "abductee" homes was accurately presented.
Although the findings are very preliminary, there are two
reasons why they were presented:

     (1)    It was felt by Levengood that, if we are to obtain
     dust samples from a broader sampling group, Ms. Ruben's
     website was a good place to begin to acquaint people who
     have had "abduction" experiences, with the possibility that
     anomalous material might be present in their house dust.

     (2)    This type of exploratory investigation demands quite
     a different approach than does, for example, the
     exploration of changes in crop formation plants and soils.
     Thorough examination of house dust samples requires hours
     of tedious microscopic measurements and manipulation, as
     well as the availability of associated spectroscopic
     analyses.  It was thought that a brief statement concerning
     these preliminary findings might stimulate other scientists
     to have a look at such materials.

Because of other ongoing research projects and the considerable
eye-strain involved in this type of work, Levengood is not able
to spend long hours on the microscope.  However, these
micron-sized "glassy particles" which have now been found in
dust samples from multiple self-described "abductee's" homes
are, in fact, of considerable interest, and the BLT Research
Team is conducting a long-term evaluation of these strange
particles.  Many of them, in spite of their microscopic size,
appear to have both internal and external complex structures.
Some of them have what appear to be nuclei, in spite of the
fact that Energy Dispersive Spectroscopy (EDS) analyses
indicate a silicate-type composition.  Also, similar particles
have been found in white deposited material at crop formation
sites in several countries and in material retrieved from
witness-described UFO trace cases.

The fact that the BLT Team is looking at these particles,
whether from crop formation sites, UFO-trace cases, or from
"abductee" homes, should not be construed as acceptance by BLT
of an extraterrestrial causation; we have no opinion as to the
origin of these particles at this time.  For information on
dust-sampling contact Nancy Talbott at the BLT office in
Cambridge, MA (phone: 617/492-0415)." /BLT Research Team Inc.

Editor's Note: The BLT Team does an excellent job and I
encourage donations to support expensive testing and research.

JUPITER'S MOON EUROPA MAY BE INHABITED?

Russian astrophysicist Boris Rodionov claims to have proof of
the existence of "a highly developed extraterrestrial
civilization on one of the 16 moons of Jupiter.  The
astrophysicist also claims the UFO phenomenon could well be
"Outriders for this civilization."  Wielding a vast amount of
scientific data and photographs transmitted by NASA's "Galileo"
probe, Rodionov, a tenured professor of Microphysics and
Cosmophysics of the State Institute of Physical Engineering,
stated that Europa, smallest of Jupiter's four main satellites,
"was inhabited by an ancient and technologically advanced
civilization."  Through the use of a high-powered computer and
sophisticated photographic analysis technology, the scientist
managed to obtain a close-up with a record-breaking resolution
of nine kilometers from the satellite's surface, enabling him
to make out the contours of what he calls pipes, tunnels, and
spherical domes.

The photos clearly shows -- according to Rodionov -- that lines
formerly considered as mere fissures by the scientific
community actually cross over each other, like expressways.
According to Rodionov, the variety of "pipelines" and
"tunnels", having a diameter similar to the "Chunnel" that
crosses the English Channel is surprising.  "There are 100
kilometer segments, as well as other pipelines having immense
junctures or orifices between them."  Anyone may join the
controversy, since the image in which Rodionov claims to see
the aforementioned pipelines and tunnels is available to anyone
having Internet access and a simple photo-retouching program
capable of analyzing it.  The images from the "Galileo"
mission, show fissures which cross each other but never at
different elevations, as the scientist has claimed.  Having a
width of 20 to 40 kilometers and thousands of kilometers in
length, it is believed that the fissures are attributable to a
period of global expansion on Europa, caused by volcanic
eruptions or geysers under its frosty surface, creating a
series of fractures on the ice crust.

Editors Note: I cannot confirm these findings however, I'm
aware that new calculations by Christopher Chyba, a professor
of geological and environmental sciences at Stanford, has
figured out that the charged particles of Jupiter's strong
magnetic field could provide the energy to sustain life.  Water
is the key to life, and while it may have once flowed freely on
Mars, it is Europa that's believed to have a liquid ocean right
now.  However, the ocean lies under a thick layer of ice that
is too thick to allow sunlight to be the primary source of
energy necessary for life.

  VERMONT FLYING TRIANGLE

BRISTOL -- The witness states, "I arrived home on February 9,
2000, and looked straight up at the stars, and saw a very large
triangular splotch of light moving to the northeast."  It was
more like a luminous cloud rather than a fixed definite shape.
It was brighter at the edges, but stars could be seen faintly
through the object, but it did dim the background.  It seemed
high up in the sky, but was huge.  Using Big Dipper as an
indicator each edge of the object was about 1/3 the length of
the distance between the last two stars of the handle.  I
watched for a few minutes at 6:15 PM and called my wife to come
out and she also saw the object.  She went back inside, and I
continued to watch using binoculars.  I followed its path to
the horizon where it split into a series of four objects, two
each that acted and moved like any other satellite you may see.
I have observed the triangular weather satellite formation that
occasionally passes overhead, and have always enjoyed looking
for satellites.  These were not standard satellites.  Thanks to
Peter Davenport and the National UFO Reporting Center.
Editor's Note: Alkaid 1.9 and Alioth 1.7 magnitude stars are
the two end stars of the Big Dipper handle.  They are separated
by 13 degrees (Sidereal Hour Angle) and are easily visible in
the northern sky.

NEW JERSEY UFO ANOTHER WITNESS REPORTS IN

ROCHELLE PARK -- On Friday, February 11, 2000, Marc Librescu
reports,  "I was driving south on Route 17 when I saw a bright
light streak across the sky directly in front of me, but
farther south."  It was a white-yellow light, moving very fast,
much faster than a plane.  The object moved so fast that it
appeared to have a tail, like a meteorite might, but it was
flying too low to have been a meteorite.  The object
disappeared in the clouds before it left my field of view.  If
I put both arms straight out in front of me, the object would
have disappeared near my right hand.  I have no way of telling
how high the object was, but it was about the size of an
aspirin held at arm's length. I looked at the car's clock and
noted the time was 6:54 PM.  The object was about 45 degrees
from the horizon and was traveling east to west southwest in a
horizontal trajectory.  There were planes flying in the
immediate area as I was about four miles from Teterboro
Airport.  It is interesting to note that the same UFO tubular
in shape with a pointed arrow-like front was reported by Sam
Sherman about 50 miles due south of my location at 6:55 PM or
within ten minutes of my sighting.  Thanks to Marc Librescu
mlibrescu@earthlink.net

Editors Note: There regular reports of high speed UFO flights
along the latitudes 30� 30 "N and 40� 30"N.  Based on
observations from our space shuttle flights and ground reports
these UFOs move at speeds as high as 100,000 mph and are
therefore often difficult to see.  They cross the horizon in a
second or so, but people are regularly observing them from the
ground and on the shuttle films.  If you would like to see them
I suggest on a clear evening about dusk you look to the east
and watch for objects moving at high speed in a westerly
direction.  There have been several unexplained aircraft losses
along the regular UFO routes of flight.  I feel research is
needed into this safety problem.

NEW JERSEY BOOMERANG SHAPED HOVERING UFO

PINE HILL -- On February 17, 2000, the witness reports, "I was
driving with my girlfriend in a semi-built-up suburban area
when spotted two alternately blinking lights the sky at 9:30
PM."  One was yellow and the other white.  My girlfriend asked
me what it was and I told her it was a tower and not a plane,
because it was completely motionless in the sky.  Then I
remembered that there was no tower there, so we both took a
second look as we drove closer.  This became more frightening
because there was only space between the two lights and the
ground, and a boomerang-shaped craft came into focus.  We were
driving 35 miles per hour. "What the #!@! is that?," we both
repeated.  I began to slow down but the driver behind me didn't
even notice and was beeping at me to keep driving.  Finally we
got closer and I saw a black metallic ship between the two
lights in an extremely aerodynamic shape (almost a V shaped
pattern).  I do not know what was scarier, the fact that the
color of the metal was a glossy black and grey (unlike any kind
of metal I've seen) or the fact that it hovered motionlessly as
I drove under it.  When I drove past it I turned back while I
was driving and saw the shape of the ship along with it's
menacing metallic parts.  It couldn't have been even more than
3 blocks above us.  It was the most unbelievable amazing
technology and I still can't believe the way it looked.  What
the hell was that thing?  I am a commercial artist and am
trying to make  realistic drawings of the object.   Thanks to
NUFORC. www.ufocenter.come

ILLINOIS UFOs CAUGHT ON VIDEO

ROCKFORD -- On February 16, 2000, my wife Fran and I were baby
sitting with our grand sons.  It was about 9:35 AM, when my
daughter Christy was yelling for us to come outside.  I walked
out onto the driveway and she was pointing toward the sky.
"Would you look at that!" she was saying.  There was four large
glowing objects in the sky traveling toward the southeast. They
were the color of the sunlight that must have been reflecting
off of them.  Christy and Dave said that they watched them all
the way as they were coming home. There were eight of them when
they first spotted them.  I asked Christy if she had a camera
so she ran and got hers?  She snapped four pictures with her
camera. Also the local TV station was WIFR in Rockford captured
them on video and showed them on TV this morning.  As we
watched the largest pulled away to the right and one by one
they flickered away as they lost the sunlight.  The largest one
was the last to flicker away.  Thanks to Robert Clark
Expertreal, author of "How The Heptan's Colonized Earth" WIFRTV
(815) 335-2213

ROCKFORD -- On February 16, 2000, a family including their
sixteen year old son and five year old daughter were on States
Street at 9:15 p.m. heading east when they noticed five large
orange glowing lights flying in formation.  The husband pulled
the car off the road and his son, who just so happened to have
his 8 mm video-camcorder jumped out the car and began video
taping the flying objects for almost fifteen minutes.  My wife
and I sat in the car with our windows down and intently watched
as these objects three times larger than stars flew around in
intelligent formation.  First, they flew staggered vertically.
Then two of the lower ones flew directly along side each other,
almost touching.  Immediately one of these objects flew below
the other then in a counterclockwise rotation.  It arced up
around the other object, and then resumed its position along
side.  The four objects then began flying in a straight line
stacking up vertically one over the top of the other flying
east to west.  They hovered at a slow speed.

The fifth object and highest object stayed slightly ahead of
the other four.  After the lower objects flew a couple of
aerial acrobatic moves, the next two above them also made a few
acrobatic moves.  The lower objects then rapidly sped away and
disappeared.  Three objects remained visible while the top lead
separated into two objects and appeared to drop a second object
out the bottom.  They systematically one by one sped away.
After returning home the witnesses called the Rockford Airport
Control Tower and reported the UFOs.  The tower personnel
indicated several others had also called in.  They did not have
any aircraft flying to match the UFOs.  They contacted the
local news agencies and told many others were calling in.
Thanks to Peter Davenport and NUFORC www.ufocenter.com. The
event was reported on the 10:00 p.m. newscast by WRAX-TV.

NEW MEXICO TWO HUGE MOTHERSHIPS SPOTTED

LORDSBURG -- Richard Boylan, Ph.D., writes concerning further
details of his sighting of two half-mile in diameter
motherships.  He and twenty other witnesses observed one of the
scout craft flying from the well lit motherships.  The craft
got within 1500 feet of their position.  The viewing site is at
the highest point on Highway 464, approximately 12 miles north
of its junction with US Highway 70, northwest of Lordsburg.
The actual ET mothership landing zone was eight miles northwest
of that viewing site, across trackless the BLM desert.  David
Shoemaker says the aliens were attempting to make Brown's Gas
an energetic gas that is a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen gas
prepared by electrolyzing water.  Generators which prepare
Brown's Gas are sold for welding.  Brown's Gas has also been
proposed as a fuel for internal combustion engines and as an
input gas for fuel cells." Thanks to Richard Boylan, Ph.D.
drboylan@jps.net.

David Shoemaker writes he made a 20-minute videotape of a
mothership landing on another occasion called, "Secrets of the
Gila"  David took attendees of his recent conference to a patch
of roadbed on  Highway 464, six miles north of its junction
with US 70.  A UFO had  touched down  and left metal melted
into the  blacktop, leaving embedded paper-thin strips when the
UFO  lifted off.  The debris field the size of a football field
yielded more of the metal.  They were able to pull silvery
metal from the roadway as a souvenirs. Thanks to David
Shoemaker,   http://crashdebris.com

FINLAYSON -- ISUR reports that the witness, whose initials are
SDM, was on a New Mexico hunting camp during the summer of
1996, when he was awakened at 4:00 AM by a weird popping sound.
He observed what he thought was electricity rising up from some
powerlines located along the road to the south.  He continued
to watch and noticed some sort of airborne craft floating
toward him, about 45 feet above the power lines.  The witness
felt his presence was noticed and there was silence there
after.  The object appeared dark in color and as long as a full
sized pickup truck.  It continued moving until it was about 30
feet away and estimated 65 feet above the ground.  It then
continued moving until lost from sight.  The witness did not
mention any EM effects or other unusual occurrences.  Thanks
to: ISUR and Walter Sheets tangosix@webtv.net.  Editor's Notes:
Plasma objects have been known to develop above power lines in
damp weather.  However, these are usually reported as glowing
like a cloud with electricity inside.

OREGON LOW LEVEL SPRAYING CONTRAILS

Ron Wheeler reports,  "Low level contrails are again flowing
above Central Oregon  and many people report a flu like
sickness that they associate with chemical spraying or
low-level contrails."  I went on a walk Tuesday evening
February 8, 2000, and watched in the dim-lit sky many
chemtrails above the area where I live.  A couple hours later I
got very ill.  This lasted during the evening into early
morning.  It was like the flu, yet not it.  I even had blisters
around my mouth!  Very slowly I started to feel better and one
day later all was okay.  Now a friend's wife, who works on a
Native American reservation near my home as a teacher, told
that the school is running out of sub teachers due to the same
type of illness.  Other areas of the country report many people
ill with flu like symptoms.  Ron Wheeler, RonsGossip@aol.com

CALIFORNIA SPRAYING

CORONA -- John Pinkston who works for the Veterans
Administration writes that he observed spraying on February 19,
2000.  He says, "After today there is no doubt in my mind that
they are spraying us!"  I live in south Corona, CA. Today, at
1:15 PM, I watched them make three passes from west to east and
you could see the spray dropping down and making what looked
like clouds!  What really confirms this is, I watched two
airliners traveling in the same direction at the same altitude
at the same time, close to the spray, and there were no
contrails or vapor trails!! " I know something is being dumped
on the population for sure."  Thanks to Jeff Rense and John
Pinkston lockanload@earthlink.net.

Editors Note:  I have bee n trying to determine if there is a
real story with these reports of low level spraying all over
the country.  I saw some very interesting video of a low-level
four engine jet aircraft spraying in California.  I estimate
its altitude was only 2000 feet, where it would be very unusual
for contrails to form.  Furthermore aircraft passing by at
higher altitudes did not create contrails.  Contrails are
formed by the condensation of water vapor at generally high
altitudes.  What appeared to be a 707 aircraft without any
visible markings was conducting the spraying.  Small light
aircraft have been spraying crops for years.  The jet aircraft
appeared to be spraying or dumping a liquid out the fuselage at
the rear of the aircraft.  Many aircraft have fuel dumping
outlets at the rear in case fuel must be dumped in an
emergency.  The jet engines were not causing the contrails to
form, they were caused by the spraying.  The aircraft was
spraying the area in a large checkerboard pattern, and the sky
completely clouded over after an hour.  Aircraft without
visible markings are fairly unusual as well.  Although,
markings frequently cannot be observed due to observers
distance from the aircraft.   In several areas of the country,
it has been reported that analyses of the sprayed substance,
indicates it is a watered-downed anthrax virus.   This may be a
response to terrorists carrying the anthrax virus into the US.
I'm trying to confirm these reports. See more information at:
www.contrailconnection.com

HOODED ROBED BEINGS

Joseph A. Marmo writes, "Back in 1993, I had some strange
experiences in the middle of the night."  I would see three
short hooded midget sized characters in my bedroom.  The room
would be filled with a strange glow when they appeared.  I can
only describe the glow as an infrared looking light.  I had
some very frightening night time experiences at this time as
well.  I would hear what sounded like many voices moaning and
screaming.  I thought I was in hell.  Once I remember saying an
"Our Father, (I'm Catholic) because these voices sounded like
pure evil."  While I said it one of the voices mimicked the
prayer in a strange mocking tone.  My room mate at the time
would see a helicopter flying very low near our apartment the
day after these occurrences.  I cannot come to any conclusions
as to what was going on during that time, but it was extremely
frightening and very bizarre.  I am a rational person, but I
have no explanations. jmarmo1@rochester.rr.com

NAZI  DISC AIRCRAFT RESEARCH

Palmiro Campagna engineer and author the UFO Files: The
Canadian Connection Exposed writes, "The stories that NAZI
Germany had developed flying saucers towards the latter part of
the Second World War persist."  In Canada, several individuals
claiming to be designers of these devices approached the
government, looking to exchange the secrets of their designs
for money, and/or employment and immigration to Canada. In
March 1952, Rudolf von Meerscheidt-Hullessem sent a letter to
the Canadian Embassy in Bonn stating he had developed a flying
saucer capable of speeds and altitudes limited only by the
strength of the metals used in the saucer's construction.  In
exchange for his invention, Rudolf wanted $100,000 and a salary
of $1,500 per month tax free and Canadian citizenship.  He
claimed he had been approached by the US, but wanted to get his
idea into the hands of Canadian experts.  He further claimed
the US made him an offer but he wished to hear from the
Canadian government first.  In the end, the Canadian government
declined Rudolf' s offer but it is not known what the United
States did. Not long after this episode, the US government
contracted A. V. Roe Canada, to build a flying saucer -- what
would later become the Avrocar and Project Silverbug.  Details
are found in National Archives in Ottawa from Records Group 24
and 25. Thanks to Palmiro Campagna

US AIR FORCE PREPARES TO BATTLE IN SPACE

The Air Force chief of staff said the service's integration of
air and space will influence not only commerce in the coming
century, but also the way "mankind's wars are fought."  General
Ryan said, "The aerospace domain is a major component of the
battlespace, and must be integrated into how to fight."  He
characterized the aerospace domain as a "seamless volume," in
and from which the nation's military will provide the
capabilities to support national security.  "Space is a place
where the best investment gives us the best capability to fight
and win America's wars" He indicated that space currently makes
up one-fourth of total aerospace industry sales, and the United
States commands about 33 percent of the worldwide launch
business.  "As a nation, our investment alone in space is truly
astronomical."  Government wide spending on space in 1998
totaled $30 billion, "and that amount will be matched and
surpassed by industry early in the 21st century."  This is part
of General Ryan's address to Air Force Association.

UFO RADAR OBSERVATIONS

One great delusion of the public is that only UFO fans report
UFO's sightings.  The opposite is actually true.  Usually the
best reports come from educated, articulate, and often well
qualified people such as pilots, teachers and scientists.  UFOs
are often reported at close range, and detected on radar.  It
has been the governments practice to deny all UFO reports on
radar.  I have personally seen UFOs on radar and many of my
radar operator friends have seen them as well.  In fact, they
are picked up by radar almost on a daily basis around the
country.  UFOs operate at either very slow speeds or at very
high speeds.  Almost all radar computer displays are distorted
to diminish UFO reports.  The visual display is computer
enhanced to remove slow moving craft and aircraft moving above
normal jet aircraft speeds.  This procedure eliminates most
UFOs, however both FAA and military radar operators still
frequently observe UFOs.  Most aircraft also broadcast
identification codes, so the radar operators can readily
identify them for safety purposes.   UFOs do not broadcast.
When pilots spot UFOs and ask about them,  the FAA and military
personnel are instructed to deny the sightings.  Few will
traffic control personnel will acknowledge the sighting, but
they do have instructions to keep the aircraft and the UFOs
separated to avoid collisions.  So if you have a sighting and
receive a heading changes it's a good chance the UFOs are being
picked up on radar.

LIFE MAGAZINE POLL SAYS UFOs ARE HERE

A recent Life Magazine poll found 49 percent of Americans
believe the government is withholding information from the
public about the existence of UFOs.  More than 2.7 million
people say they have had an encounter with beings from another
planet.  More than 30 percent believe aliens have already
landed on Earth.  More than 50 percent believe there is
intelligent life in the universe.

PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO shots available and
data on their propulsion systems. $10.00

US GOVERNMENT UFO PROOF RELEASED: Audio tapes of a genuine UFO
Alert at Edwards Air Force base and studied by the Foreign
Technology Division at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, are now
available for distribution to the public.  Sam Sherman's audio
documentary tape called EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE ENCOUNTER on the
night of October 7, 1965, uses the actual voice recordings
provided by the Air Force.  During this event 12 high tech
luminous UFOs invade secure air space and came down low over
the runways at Edwards AFB.  Tower operator Sgt. Chuck Sorrels
spotted them and notified the Air Defense Command.  Sgt.
Sorrels is heard on the original tapes and in a new segment
where he verifies the event as it is heard on the archival
recordings.  The UFOs are described and a decision is made to
launch F-106 fighter interceptors.  You are there for an
important part of UFO history.  Hear it for yourself, it's the
best UFO tape ever made.  Tape cost is $14.95 each plus $2.00
for shipping -- total $16.95 -- (for overseas orders-out of US
- add $6.00 shipping cost -- total -- $20.95) you can send
either a personal check or money order to: Independent
International Pictures Corp, Box 565, Dept. GF, Old Bridge, New
Jersey 08857.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe by contacting Mufon@aol.com. Mention I
recommended you for membership.  Filer's Files is Copyrighted
2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
items from the Files on their Web Sites provided that they
credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date
of issue that the item appeared.  Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com.  Sending mail automatically grants
permission for us to publish. Please state if you wish to keep
your name or story confidential,


















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   Feb > Feb 29

                Candidate Harder Ripped for UFO Related Views

From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 00:55:10 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:38:38 -0500
Subject: Candidate Harder Ripped for UFO Related Views


It's nice to see a candidate, Heather Anne Harder, speak her
mind, but Harder's views are speculative and she seems to assume
that we have solved the mystery of what UFOs represent (ET?). In
my opinion, her views do more harm then good. She should stick
to scientific data when it comes to her political opinion on
UFOs. Her personal, priviate beliefs, in my opinion, should be
kept just that, private. She opens herself up to easy attacks,
like this one.

Still, I respect her for speaking her mind.

Joe in Tampa

*****************************

Tampa Tribune

http://www.tampatrib.com/Columnist/MGID06V134C.html

Jan 30, 2000 -

A candidate too alien to win?

By DANIEL RUTH

Contact Mr. Ruth at:  DRuth@tampatrib.com

They've debated abortion, the Middle East, the economy, health
care, the budget surplus, taxes and the relative merits of a
presidential candidate participating in a mosh pit.

Still, there seems to be something vaguely missing from all
these primary face-offs in both the Republican and Democratic
presidential campaigns.

In a political season so bereft of memorable political
punch-lines, at least one candidate has been willing to speak
her mind.

Perhaps you are wondering why Democratic presidential candidate
Dr. Heather Anne Harder has been so conspicuously absent from
the debates between Vice President Al Gore and former Sen. Bill
Bradley?

It's patently obvious these two pantywaists don't want to tangle
with Harder's expertise on foreign policy.

Forget lifting the Cuban embargo, or forging wider ties with
China. That's mere child's play for Harder, who is stumping for
a more coherent policy regarding the Planet Wazoo.

A firm believer in the existence of UFOs, the Indiana bookstore
owner is pushing for detente with galaxies far, far away.

"If we can't get along with our fellow human beings because
their skin is a different color, they worship differently, speak
a different language, or believe in a different ideology, how
can we hope to exist in a world filled with beings that look
like giant praying mantises?" Harder argued on her Web site.

You have to admit, it's a question that makes Bradley's claim as
the poster child of "big ideas" seem like a man merely searching
for a decent cup of coffee.

Then again, I'm not sure we need to look that far out into the
cosmos to contemplate the challenges of working out a trade
agreement with enormous insects governing the Planet Mongo.

Is it just me, or have you also gotten a nagging feeling that
Steve Forbes has about the same body language as the robot Gort
in "The Day the Earth Stood Still"?

And really now, if you were a fly, would you want to get too
close to Gary Bauer?

Harder has argued the time is now to develop a plan for "open
and direct contact with many extraterrestrial beings. We need to
learn how to discern which ETs act unselfishly for the greatest
good and which only serve themselves."

Good grief, we're lucky if we have an inkling as to what Canada
is up to half the time, much less trying to monitor the
intentions of the Planet Farquard.

In an interview from New Hampshire, where Harder pulled 1
percent of the primary vote in 1996, the candidate said she has
never had a firsthand experience with UFOs, although her
ex-husband had memories of seeing lights and experiencing lost
time that the couple could not account for.

She unabashedly included her UFO beliefs in her campaign
literature, Harder said, "because we have to get back to
honoring diversity."

Even assuming Harder believes 'Men In Black' was a documentary,
one has to wonder just how effective a president she would be in
the Oval Office (which, of course, is the same shape as a UFO)
dealing with the U.S. Congress.

You're right, one look at the likes of Sens. Dianne Feinstein,
or Paul Wellstone, or Bob Smith might make you think that
perhaps Harder is onto something.

Still, it's hard to fathom Senate Foreign Affairs Committee
Chairman Jesse Helms, R-Vulcan, who would turn the United
Nations into the Manhattan franchise of Pedro's South of the
Border, agreeing to a multibazillion-dollar appropriation to
establish diplomatic relations with the Planet Zardoz. Besides,
they could be commies.

Is Dr. Harder's UFO plank a transparent effort to lure the
crazed wacko vote? Sure. Even the lunatic fringe is entitled to
representation.

But in a presidential campaign so often reduced to silly
exchanges over whether John McCain is too nuts to be president,
or precisely when did George W. Bush stop taking a toke, or who
is more of a Christian, there is a certain perverse appeal to a
candidate who simply wonders about who is more human.

Clearly Harder has no shot at ever becoming president. Her views
are far too radical, far too controversial.

She also believes bills introduced in Congress should be written
in clear English and deal only with one specific issue. How
alien a concept is that?







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                        What's new at Magonia Online

From: Mark Pilkington <m.pilkington@virgin.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 23:38:36 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:39:41 -0500
Subject: What's new at Magonia Online



http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk

   26/02/00

       When Jenny met Joe: Randles on Firmage

       Magonia Monthly Supplement, February 2000

       Spring book reviews







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                        X-PPAC Media Alert - 2/27/00

From: Stephen Bassett <ExPPAC@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 20:30:17 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:41:47 -0500
Subject: X-PPAC Media Alert - 2/27/00

                 X-PPAC
Extraterrestrial Phenomena Political Action Committee

X-PPAC Media Alert

February 27, 2000

Tonight CBS 60 Minutes has aired an important piece of
investigative journalism.  It involves abuse within the intel
community regarding the Echelon program.

This is exactly the kind journalism needed to target the same
agencies regarding the sequestration of the facts surrounding
the presence of extraterrestrial life forms in our world, now.

CBS has gotten a taste of the activities underway within the
"Secret Empire" - the intelligence wing of the Military
Industrial Complex.

Contact your local CBS affiliate and CBS 60 Minutes in New York
(212-975-4321) and let them know that you want them to
demonstrate the same courage and integrity regarding the UFO/ET
cover-up and the efforts underway to provide open congressional
hearings for active and retired government employees to testify
to their personal experiences with events and evidence relating
to UFO/ET phenomena.

Stephen Bassett
Executive Director
X-PPAC

**********************************************************
            Spread the word about X-PPAC
             and the politics of disclosure
                http://www.x-ppac.org

**********************************************************







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                  New UFO Material at The Temporal Doorway

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@TEMPORALDOORWAY.COM>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 23:20:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:43:36 -0500
Subject: New UFO Material at The Temporal Doorway

Import of the BUFORA Vehicle Interference Catalog into the
Temporal Doorway UFO Database has been completed. The entries
can be reached from

http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/catalog/index.htm

Also, of great historical interest is the addition of a copy of
Dr. Olavo T. Fontes work on the Ubatuba magnesium sample. Long
out of print, this document contains the detailed scientific
examination of several fragments of very pure magnesium claimed
to be associated with the explosion of a UFO in 1957. This forty
page analysis can be found at

http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/physicalevidence/ubtatubamagnesium/index.htm

This is a portion of the new section on physical evidence, which
collects the Fontes analysis, a report from Vaddo, Sweden, in
1956 which included a piece of tungsten carbide not definitively
identified as mundane, and an analysis of the Trans-en-Provence
landing trace that was formed in 1981 during a close encounter.

http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/physicalevidence/index.htm

Some other minor rearrangements have also been made, so check
your bookmarks to pages in the UFO section.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, music and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/index.htm
------









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                            BBC UFO Report Query

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:56:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:45:33 -0500
Subject: BBC UFO Report Query


A friend called to say that the BBC had broadcast a report this
morning related to sightings of UFOs in China, but I've found
little reference to anything new going on in that area.

It was indicated that this was a 'flap', but I don't know if the
BBC reported it as such or if he has placed his own
interpretation on the reported sightings.  Any thoughts, or
clarification, would be appreciated.

Steve








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                           Birdsall NASA UFO Movie

From: Jaames Oberg <JamesOberg@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:38:58 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:51:06 -0500
Subject: Birdsall NASA UFO Movie


Hmmm... How many of the following 'quotations' are bogus as to
reference, wording, origin, or connotation? I'd bet close to
100%, but let's see what 'evidence' is offered...

Also, for REAL data (the kind denied to you by the mythmakers,
who don't want you bothered by facts), see

http://www.igs.net/~hwt/zigzag.html

JimO

www.jamesoberg.com

--

http://www.ufomag.co.uk/OS.htm

This material will be presented at the Laughlin Congress (Las
Vegas) on 11 March.

SEEING IS BELIEVING
SCEPTICS AND DEBUNKERS TAKE NOTE...

(just a few of the quotes from and referring to The Secret Nasa
Transmissions)

"I say, that if there is a cover-up, the people who are doing
this are an enemy of the entire Earth race." - A Director of
SETI

"I never knew with these scientists what they were trying to do
to me, but the amazing thing about the second (space) phenomena
is that it blew their minds... it blew their minds."

"I just know that Professor ******* was just absolutely knocked
out of his feet. He just couldn't believe it."

"Mark, will you look out there, there's an object right in front
of you!" -
NASA Astronaut

"I don't know what you're talking about." - NASA Astronaut

"Columbia, you are ordered to stay Vector.." - NASA Mission
Control

"Even though NASA moved the satellite almost over the horizon
after they found out what we were doing, we were still able to
get the satellite..."

"It's the most popular underground tape among the astronauts...
they all wanted to have a copy of it to show their friends at
night... This is a great tape, we love looking at it, everyone
just thinks this is the greatest..." - ******** Space Agency

"Everyone's talking to us, no one is threatening us."

"A flight or two later, the astronauts were commenting right on
the feed that something had come right through the door.."

"It's going really fast... I can't see it... it's all these
popping-coloured lights." - NASA Astronaut

"It's as if something comes up to your noise at 1/30th of a
second and has a tour and then leaves without us even knowing it
had been there. And if it chooses, for whatever reason, to look
at something, it tends to slow down."

"It's an amazing phenomena and what I like about it is that
these aren't 'ice crystals'..."

The investigative board acknowledge "external foriegn object
penetration but discount orbital debris or micrometeoroids"
- NASA








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                      Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:26:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:19:29 -0500
Subject: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!


Hello All,

Two weeks ago I proposed that we secure ten non-abductee UpDates
list participants to act as a control group in an independant
test. Claims have been made that the dust in the homes of
'experiencers' contains glass-like beads and other odd silica
particles that do not appear in the homes of non experiencers.
We have an opportunity to conduct a little basic
science/research on our own _and_ I haven't received a single
bloody response from anyone! Amazing.

I received this note from Nick Balaskas today:

 >Your suggestion that we do a study to determine if there is
 >something out of the ordinary in the dust collected from the
 >homes of people who have had, or still have, UFO abduction
 >experiences is an excellent one, and one that must be done.
 >Yes, I would be willing to help.

Nick will conduct the analysis of any samples that are
submitted. I already have ten abductees (members of AIC) lined
up to submit samples from their homes. The only thing missing is
the non-abductee group.

What's with you guys? Everybody is always asking for physical
proof but no one seems willing to look for it! What's up with
that guys? There are some good people on this list (who also
happen to be friends of mine) who should have been among the
first to volunteer. No response so far from anyone.

All talk, no action I guess. Geez people, all you have to do is
collect a little dust from your home and send it in directly to
Nick. (Mailing address and sample collection procedures to
follow) I don't understand why no one seems interested in
investigating this new and unusual claim.

C'mon guys! Is this list just about blowing a lot of hot air on
each other or are there still some people who are interested in
looking for real answers? I wonder.

Contact me at my e-mail address if you are interested in
participating in the control group.

jvif@spacelab.net

Sincerely,

John Velez, Webmaster AIC








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                 Research Institute on Anomalous Phenomena,

From: Patricia Mason <pmason@ee.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 07:05:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:36:08 -0500
Subject: Research Institute on Anomalous Phenomena,


-----Original Message-----
From: Alexander Beletsky [mailto:riap777@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 12:30 PM
To: Patricia Mason
Subject: Research Institute on Anomalous Phenomena, Kharkov, Ukraine

Dear Mrs. Mason,

My name is Alexander Beletsky. I am Vice-Director of Research
Institute on Anomalous Phenomena (RIAP) - an independent
scientific- research body, established in Kharkov (Ukraine) a
few years ago. We aim at scientific studies in the fields of the
UFO problem and the SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial
Intelligence) question. The Institute makes its investigations
in close collaboration with the CIS Academy of Cosmonautics and
Russian Academy of Sciences. Please find here attached (as
Appendix I) a RIAP Information Leaflet, describing the
Institute's research programs in some detail.

To inform the international ufological community about the
results of investigations that are conducted by RIAP specialists
and other scientists in the territory of the former Soviet
Union, we started, in 1994, a special periodical: newsletter
RIAP Bulletin (RB). It is the ONLY serious anomalistic
periodical in the Commonwealth of Independent States published
IN ENGLISH. There appear in RB research articles, short
communications, book reviews, letters to the Editor, etc.

RB Vol. 1, Nos. 1-4 - Vol. 5, Nos. 1-2 have been printed and
sent to subscribers. They contain, in particular, the papers
"Post-Soviet Ufology: a View from Inside" and "Alternative
Science?", by V.V.Rubtsov; "UFOs as Objects of Study by
Terrestrial Physics", by V.A.Buerakov; "Search for Alien
Artifacts on the Moon: A Justification", by A.V.Arkhipov; "UFOs:
a Possible Mechanism of Formation, Behavior and Environmental
Impact", by V.I.Mazhuga; "The Petrozavodsk Phenomenon", by
L.M.Gindilis & Y.K.Kolpakov; "The Black Ball: a Supposed
Extraterrestrial Artifact", by V.N.Fomenko; "A Second UFO
Landing on the River Mzha", by a group of RIAP scientists, and
others. We have also published the first really comprehensive
survey of anomalous features of the famous Tunguska explosion
("The Tunguska Meteorite: A Dead-Lock or the Start of a New
Stage of Inquiry?"), written by the leading Russian specialist
in this problem - Nikolay V. Vasilyev, Member of Academy.

RIAP Bulletin is published four times per year. Subscription
rates: a life-long subscription - $100; 12 issues (three years)
- $50; 8 issues (two years) - $35; 4 issues (one year) - $20.
Airmail postage included. Back issues are still available in
limited quantities ($5 per issue, $60 a whole set - twelve
issues).

If you are interested in subscribing to RIAP Bulletin, please
let me know. I and my colleagues would be happy to inform you
about advances and prospects of ufological studies in this part
of the world. There will appear in the next RB issues, in
particular, the following papers: "A Possible Genetic Trace of
the Tunguska Catastrophe of 1908", by Y.G.Rychkov; "UFOs: False
and Genuine", by the Russian academic UFO expert Y.V.Platov;
"Did the Maori Know About the Rings of Jupiter?", by
Y.N.Morozov, and many others.

With all my best wishes and warmest regards, I remain,

Sincerely yours, Alexander V. Beletsky, M.A., Vice-Director, RIAP

================

Appendix I

RESEARCH INSTITUTE ON ANOMALOUS PHENOMENA, Kharkov, Ukraine

The principal trends of researches of the institute in the UFO
field are as follows: creation of an efficient system of
reconstruction of a real anomalous event on the basis of
witnesses' testimonies; formation of a unified CIS UFO data base
(in collaboration with the Expert Group on Anomalous Atmospheric
Phenomena of the Russian Academy of Sciences) and a computer
expert system to identify genuine UFOs (GUFOs); development of
physical models of GUFOs; monitoring of a place of recurrent UFO
landings on the river Mzha, near Kharkov; studies in the hidden
history of Soviet ufology.

In the SETI field, there was realized, under the guidance of
Alexey V. Arkhipov, phase I of the program "Search for Alien
Artifacts on the Moon" (SAAM) and its results were presented on
the pages of RIAP Bulletin. Besides, we have been examining some
enigmatic finds that can be considered candidate
extraterrestrial artifacts (ancient, or not so ancient). These
are the so-called "Kassimov ball" - a small (diameter some 4.5
cm) black ball of unknown origin, found in Central Russia in
1983 on the depth 7 meters, in a layer of pure red clay, - and
the remains of a strange object that obviously originated from
space and fell down near Kharkov in 1994 (judging from its
chemical composition, it is neither a meteorite, nor terrestrial
space junk).

The institute pays considerable attention to the problem of the
Tunguska explosion of 1908. We are studying statistical
parameters of the forest fall area, as well as the
biogeochemical elemental and isotopic anomalies and
population-genetic effects, revealed in the area of the
catastrophe. A state-of-the-art collection of research papers on
the Tunguska problem is now under preparation.

The Scientific Council and Advisory Board of the Institute
include such Russian and Ukrainian specialists in the UFO
problem and SETI field as Dr. E.A.Ermilov (specialist in radio
detection of aerial anomalous phenomena), Dr. V.N.Fomenko
(investigator of the famous Vashka find, as well as other
supposed ET artifacts), Y.A.Fomin (doyen of UFO studies in
Russia), Dr. L.M.Gindilis (astronomer and SETI expert), Dr.
Y.V.Platov (Vice-Chairman of the Academic UFO Study Group), Dr.
V.K.Zhuravlev (investigator of the Tunguska explosion), and
others. The Advisory Board comprehends also a group of
well-known Western scientists, scholars and engineers -
V.-J.Ballester Olmos (Spain), Dr. T.E.Bullard (USA), Dr.
R.F.Haines (USA), Dr. A.Meessen (Belgium), et al. Dr. Vladimr V.
Rubtsov, Full Member of the CIS Academy of Cosmonautics and one
of pioneers of ufological studies in the former USSR, is
Director of RIAP.

Institute mailing address:

RIAP, P.O.Box 4684, 310022 Kharkov-22, Ukraine.

Internet e-mail address:

<riap777@yahoo.com>

Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Starship/1527/











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                      Ruppelt & 'The Radiation Story'?

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:20:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:42:31 -0500
Subject: Ruppelt & 'The Radiation Story'?


List members,

In Chapter 15, titled 'The Radiation Story', of Ruppelt's 'The
Report on Unidentified Objects', he speaks of a two physicists
who had set up some equipment to detect background radiation, and
either inadvertently or on purpose discovered a significant
increase in radiation in relation to the presence of a UFO.

This later developed into what Ruppelt termed "the mineral club"
which was a group of scientists and investigators performing
these same "radiation correlations/detections".

Does anyone know if these scientists, or "the mineral clubs",
identities were ever unveiled?

This chapter also mentions some graduate astronomy students who
performed similar detection outings, but with less "desirable
equipment.

Any ideas on obtaining more information, background, locations,
and/or references to the material contained in this particular
chapter (15) would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Todd Lemire
http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html

--

"We would rather, I suspect, fear the unknown than convert it to
the known.  What we may fear more deeply than the unknown itself
is the prospect of actually knowing it.  Happily for all of us
there are people like yourself who refuse to be bound by such
mass refusal of reality, who are not afraid to seek and learn."

Coral Lorenzen : Flying Saucers - The Startling Evidence of The
Invasion from Outer Space









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                    Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!

From: Kelly McGillis <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:11:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:25:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!


 >Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:26:03 -0500
 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >Subject: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Hello All,

 >Two weeks ago I proposed that we secure ten non-abductee UpDates
 >list participants to act as a control group in an independant
 >test. Claims have been made that the dust in the homes of
 >'experiencers' contains glass-like beads and other odd silica
 >particles that do not appear in the homes of non experiencers.
 >We have an opportunity to conduct a little basic
 >science/research on our own _and_ I haven't received a single
 >bloody response from anyone! Amazing.

<snip>

I must have missed your original request, but I did read the
article about the glass beads in the dust of abductees' homes.
Assuming that is true, what could cause 'glass beads' in dust
besides abudction?  I'm not a scientist, but could it be cause
by something else, like electromagnatism?

And perhaps there is a third group you may wish to test.  This
would be a group of people who experience Awareness during Sleep
Paralysis (ASP). For people who are unaware of that term, ASP is
when a person becomes paralyzied at some point during their
sleep cycle and then become aware that they are paralyzed.  At
this point terrifying encounters can take place with 'beings',
including examinations, rape, feelings of mental telepathy with
the 'being', etc. - many of the hallmarks of alien abduction.
However, most people who experience ASP (such as me) do not feel
they have been abducted by aliens - although they think
*something* weird is going on.  So wouldn't it be interesting to
find out if the dust in their homes also contain glass
particles?  That might indicate that people who experience
paranormal events have something in common.

I would glady send Nick some of my dust for this!  (I seem to
have lots of it today!) And I belong to the ASP list owned by
Joseph Polanik and would be happy to ask him if we could get
other ASP volunteers from his list.

UFOs, abduction and ASP may not seem to be related at first
glance, but there does seem to be some common features and
prehaps this is worth exploring.

And dust has come up as a topic before on other lists as perhaps
inducing dreams and other paranormal states in that microscopic
molds and fungus may be present which can possibly trigger mild
halluciogenic effects on people.  (A mycologist concurred that
this may be possible.)

I certainly notice that I dream more in either dusty or in damp
places where molds and fungus are more likely to be present.

Kelly









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                    Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!

From: Stephen MILES Lewis <elfis@austin.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 11:54:02 +0251
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:06:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!


 >Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:26:03 -0500
 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >Subject: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >C'mon guys! Is this list just about blowing a lot of hot air on
 >each other or are there still some people who are interested in
 >looking for real answers? I wonder.

 >Contact me at my e-mail address if you are interested in
 >participating in the control group.

 >jvif@spacelab.net

 >Sincerely,

 >John Velez, Webmaster AIC


Dust Bunny Rookie Elfis reporting for duty sir JV,

Count me in! Within which thread did you post yer
original suggestion / query for participants - I missed it
somehow.

I'm almost more curious to see how many samples
get opened in route for inspection by the Postal Thugs -
"hmm... what's this powdery substance in this plastic
baggie marked 'abductee dust sample - do not break
seal' "  [turns to coworker] "Sounds like there's a new
type of dope on the streets."

Send me sampling details (from which rooms? away
from the cat box, incense burners, and illicit chemical
stashes I presume?).

Ready to contribute my two specks worth.

SMiles
www.elfis.net










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                    Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!

From: Donnie Shevlin <dshevlin@charter.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:39:44 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:45:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!


John, EBK and list,

I would love to participate, but feel just for myself, that the
experiment would be tainted.

My bedroom is not a controlled environment. I have been
rebuilding the inside of my house for the last year or so and
feel that dust from dry-wall, which has ground glass in it,
would taint any results that may be found. And, as anyone that
works with dry-wall can tell you, that dust gets everywhere that
air can be found.


Donnie Shevlin









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                    Re: Ruppelt & 'The Radiation Story'?

From: Adam Lowe <adam@nicap.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 16:34:02 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:02:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Ruppelt & 'The Radiation Story'?


 >Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:20:54 -0500
 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >Subject: Ruppelt & 'The Radiation Story'?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >In Chapter 15, titled 'The Radiation Story', of Ruppelt's 'The
 >Report on Unidentified Objects', he speaks of a two physicists
 >who had set up some equipment to detect background radiation, and
 >either inadvertently or on purpose discovered a significant
 >increase in radiation in relation to the presence of a UFO.

Hi Errol, list.

I can't answer Todd's questions but in case anybody has not read
this chapter it is available online at:

http://www.nicap.co.uk/fifteen.htm

The book itself is at http://www.nicap.co.uk/Rufo.htm

Adam.

NICAP's Official Website is located at:
http://www.nicap.co.uk










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                    Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:50:00 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:05:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!


 >Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:26:03 -0500
 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >Subject: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >Nick will conduct the analysis of any samples that are
 >submitted. I already have ten abductees (members of AIC) lined
 >up to submit samples from their homes. The only thing missing is
 >the non-abductee group.

<snip>

John:

I admire your perseverance in trying to get a scientific study
of abduction-related physical effects underway.

But as a cynic, I have to make a few observations about the
proposed study:

-       You want dust samples from people who do not think they are
abductees. How do they know that? What if their memories have
just been more efficiently erased than others? One idea that has
been kicked around for a while is that people who are keen about
UFOs (buffs, investigators, etc.) have an interest because of a
suppressed UFO experience.

-       Have you specified how to collect the dust samples so that
there is uniformity? Is everyone to use sticky tape, a test
tube, use gloves, collect only from underneath a bed, etc.

-       Since there are micrometeorites in raindrops and
snowflakes, and these can be collected with magnets, metallic
particles and microscopic glass beads would be expected in most
samples, anyway. (I actually collected micrometeorites in this
manner for a science experiment in grade school when I was a
kid.) Variations in the concentration of metal/glass particles
would depend on many factors, such as how often the room was
cleaned, whether there was good air circulation, etc.

In short, it's an interesting idea, and perhaps worth trying
just to see what results one would get, but as for telling us
anything concrete about abductees and aliens' interactions with
humans, it doesn't seem to be able to do that.

Now, do I have a better idea right now? No. :)

I'm just the black nimbus cloud floating along through your
bright sunny day :)

Why do think Peter Brookesmith gave me the nickname "grumps"?



--
Nobody in particular








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 29

                    Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:07:17 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:24:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!


 >Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:26:03 -0500
 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >Subject: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Two weeks ago I proposed that we secure ten non-abductee UpDates
 >list participants to act as a control group in an independant
 >test. Claims have been made that the dust in the homes of
 >'experiencers' contains glass-like beads and other odd silica
 >particles that do not appear in the homes of non experiencers.
 >We have an opportunity to conduct a little basic
 >science/research on our own _and_ I haven't received a single
 >bloody response from anyone! Amazing.

 >Nick will conduct the analysis of any samples that are
 >submitted. I already have ten abductees (members of AIC) lined
 >up to submit samples from their homes. The only thing missing is
 >the non-abductee group.


Hello John,

I also missed seeing your first request for this. But I think it
would be better to gather the control-group dust from those not
on this list at all, and from friends or neighbors whom you know
are not at all interested in UFOs, or who deny their existence.
That's because those of us on this list (well, most of us) have
had some predisposition to being open towards the reality of the
UFO phenomenon. That's why we're on the list. In many cases that
predisposition stems from being a known abductee -- at least
known for sure to the abductee. But in some cases that
predisposition may have been prompted by being an unknowing
abductee -- one who has not yet recalled any memories associated
with it, and has not yet observed anomalous scars or missing
time, etc. So, if anomalous "dust" shows up in the homes of some
of the latter, this would cast needless doubt upon the matter.

But if what's wanted for controls are only those who are _not_
currently undergoing frequent alien abductions of which they are
all too aware, then your procedure seems OK to me.

Jim Deardorff









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   Feb > Feb 29

                                 Bionic Man?

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:36:12 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:33:54 -0500
Subject: Bionic Man?


For all those interested in 'implants' and such, might be
interested in a magazine article that was in the newspaper, The
Express (UK) on 28/Feb/2000

---
Bionic Man? We have the technology.
By Nicholas Ruhtherford

Bionic man moved a step closer to reality last night as
scientists claimed to have mated human cells with electronics.
They have created a device, smaller and thinner than a strand of
hair, which combines a healthy human cell with an electronic
circuitry chip.

By controlling the chip by computer, they believe they can
control the cell's activity. The computer sends electrical
impulses to the cell-chip, triggering the cell's membrane pores
to open. If mass- produced, scientists at the University of
California believe the cell-chips could be inserted into a human
body to replace or correct diseased tissues.

Research leader Professor Boris Rubinsky said the cell-chip
would also allow doctors to introduce a new drug or genetic
material into patients with greater precision. Until now this
has involved trial and error bombardment of cells with
electricity. Cell-chips could be "tuned" to the precise voltage
needed to activate different body tissues.

Professor Rubinsky said: "In the past, any electricity applied
to the cell was like hitting it with a hammer in the hope that
something would happen, or it would open for us. Now we know
just how to make it work".


--
    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 29

                    Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:06:38 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:40:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!


 >Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:26:03 -0500
 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >Subject: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Two weeks ago I proposed that we secure ten non-abductee UpDates
 >list participants to act as a control group in an independant
 >test. Claims have been made that the dust in the homes of
 >'experiencers' contains glass-like beads and other odd silica
 >particles that do not appear in the homes of non experiencers.
 >We have an opportunity to conduct a little basic
 >science/research on our own _and_ I haven't received a single
 >bloody response from anyone! Amazing.

John, where did you post this? I am behind in my UpDates, I have
over 200 sitting in my inbox atm.

 >I received this note from Nick Balaskas today:

<snip>

 >What's with you guys? Everybody is always asking for physical
 >proof but no one seems willing to look for it! What's up with
 >that guys? There are some good people on this list (who also
 >happen to be friends of mine) who should have been among the
 >first to volunteer. No response so far from anyone.

I would have been one of those first to volunteer. Would you
like some dust from the UK to have a non American dust sample?

 >All talk, no action I guess. Geez people, all you have to do is
 >collect a little dust from your home and send it in directly to
 >Nick. (Mailing address and sample collection procedures to
 >follow) I don't understand why no one seems interested in
 >investigating this new and unusual claim.

 >C'mon guys! Is this list just about blowing a lot of hot air on
 >each other or are there still some people who are interested in
 >looking for real answers? I wonder.

No need to wonder. We are here <g>.

 >jvif@spacelab.net

Send me Nick's address and I will post the dust samples this
weekend.

--
    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 29

                    Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!

From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 11:10:19 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:59:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!


 >From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
 >Subject: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:26:03 -0500
 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >>Subject: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 ><snip>

 >>Nick will conduct the analysis of any samples that are
 >>submitted. I already have ten abductees (members of AIC)
 >>lined up to submit samples from their homes. The only
 >>thing missing is the non-abductee group.

 ><snip>

 >John:

 >I admire your perseverance in trying to get a scientific study
 >of abduction-related physical effects underway.

 >But as a cynic, I have to make a few observations about the
 >proposed study:

 >-     You want dust samples from people who do not think they are
 >abductees. How do they know that? What if their memories have
 >just been more efficiently erased than others? One idea that has
 >been kicked around for a while is that people who are keen about
 >UFOs (buffs, investigators, etc.) have an interest because of a
 >suppressed UFO experience.

 >-     Have you specified how to collect the dust samples so that
 >there is uniformity? Is everyone to use sticky tape, a test
 >tube, use gloves, collect only from underneath a bed, etc.

 >-     Since there are micrometeorites in raindrops and
 >snowflakes, and these can be collected with magnets, metallic
 >particles and microscopic glass beads would be expected in most
 >samples, anyway. (I actually collected micrometeorites in this
 >manner for a science experiment in grade school when I was a
 >kid.) Variations in the concentration of metal/glass particles
 >would depend on many factors, such as how often the room was
 >cleaned, whether there was good air circulation, etc.

 >In short, it's an interesting idea, and perhaps worth trying
 >just to see what results one would get, but as for telling us
 >anything concrete about abductees and aliens' interactions with
 >humans, it doesn't seem to be able to do that.

 >Now, do I have a better idea right now? No. :)

 >I'm just the black nimbus cloud floating along through your
 >bright sunny day :)

 >Why do think Peter Brookesmith gave me the nickname "grumps"?


Chris, you bring up some excellent points.  Creating a control
group is very difficult, especially within this proposed study.
Soliciting samples online is not very controlled nor scientific.
Those scientists who've already been looking at these
microspheres should formulate a good control and sampling plan
for field investigators.

Another concern of mine is that several groups of samples (three
for example) should be taken at once. Set #1 would go to
researcher A.  If researcher A finds microspheres then he or she
should send off samples #2 and #3 to two other researchers in an
attempt to replicate the findings.  .

There is a lot of work ahead for the researchers in formulating
a decent sampling plan that will stand up to scientific
scrutiny.  Nancy Talbott mentioned on Dreamland that the BLT
people need to look at more man made microspheres (which can be
found in reflective paint, ice cream and so on) to get a handle
on what all is out there in our 'dust bunnies'.  I propose that
researchers out there help them in this capacity as well.

Finally, if those on list have not listened to the audio
archived Dreamland from last Sunday night, they should do so.
Ms. Talbott talks at length about the various aspects of doing a
decent investigation into these relatively new findings.  You
can listen at:

http://209.67.103.215/clickhear/abell/dreamland/022700.ram


Jeff Westover








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 29

                        Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 16:52:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:09:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal


 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca
 >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!
 >Date: Tue, Feb 29, 2000, 3:37 PM


 >>Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:26:03 -0500
 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >>Subject: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Hello All,

 >>Two weeks ago I proposed that we secure ten non-abductee UpDates
 >>list participants to act as a control group in an independant
 >>test. Claims have been made that the dust in the homes of
 >>'experiencers' contains glass-like beads and other odd silica
 >>particles that do not appear in the homes of non experiencers.
 >>We have an opportunity to conduct a little basic
 >>science/research on our own _and_ I haven't received a single
 >>bloody response from anyone! Amazing.

Hi Guys,

I like my 'crow' slightly well done with a little sauce and
salad on the side please. :) Wow! I opened my mailbox this
morning to find it _full_ of messages from people who wish to
contribute to our little dust sample study. So many in fact that
responding 'individually' would consume gobs of time that I
simply do not have. In future, all communications with those who
have volunteered will be conducted via the UFO UpDates list.

_Thank_you_ for restoring my faith that there are still people
out there that have not been sucked into the black hole of
apathy. Any who have managed to maintain their open mindedness
and curiosity in todays cynical world deserve a 'tip' of the
hat, and a 'bow' at the waist. I appreciate the responses.

To the business at hand:

We need to have a clear set of procedures regarding 'how' (and
maybe from 'where') the dust samples are to be collected and
packaged. Nick Balaskas is tending to that piece of business as
we speak. The moment I have those 'instructions' in my hands I
will post them to the UpDates list. Shouldn't be long in coming.
I'm trying to contact Levengood to see if he's willing to share
the methods and procedures that they employed in the original
study. In the meantime, I am communicating with a trained police
investigator who is sharing 'evidence gathering' techniques and
police methods for establishing 'chain of custody.' We'll
probably end up sending everyone a little 'kit' with a sealed
vial and an information sheet. Folks will have to note where and
when the samples were collected as well as taking and making
note of secondary 'control' samples.

_All_ samples will be mailed directly to Nick. (Address to
follow shortly)

Nick will post the results of his study to the UpDates list for
all to see and comment on. Also, there are several comments and
suggestions that have come in that I need to address. Please
forgive me if I can't get to them all.

1. Kelly suggested the following;

 >And perhaps there is a third group you may wish to test.  This
 >would be a group of people who experience Awareness during Sleep
 >Paralysis (ASP).

Kelly, the original study _does not include_ an ASP group and in
deference to the wisdom of the old 'KISS' concept (Keep It
Simple Stupid!) I don't see any reason to introduce it into the
sampling now. The original claim is, that there is a difference
between the content of the dust in the homes of 'abductees' as
opposed to 'non-abductees.'  We're just trying to see if _those
results_ (without introducing a third or forth control group
which was _not_ included in the original) can be replicated.

Yours is an interesting suggestion and it deserves to be checked
out at some point. After we do this, -you- may wish to initiate
such a study yourself. I would be happy to contribute a sample
to it. Because we have more supply than demand, dust is cheap in
New York at the moment and I have plenty to spare. :) Thanx for
your interest.

2. EBK wrote:

 >It occurs to me that it would a useful addendum to the
 >sample study to get experiencers neighbours to contribute
 >samples?

Excellent suggestion! In cases where the participants are not
engaged in mortal combat with their neighbors and samples can be
obtained, they should be! :) I'll run it past Nick.

3. Donnie wrote:

 >I would love to participate, but feel just for myself, that the
 >experiment would be tainted.

 >My bedroom is not a controlled environment. I have been
 >rebuilding the inside of my house for the last year or so and
 >feel that dust from dry-wall, which has ground glass in it,
 >would taint any results that may be found. And, as anyone that
 >works with dry-wall can tell you, that dust gets everywhere that
 >air can be found.

Then don't Donnie. Anyone who feels that 'recent construction'
or other factors would 'taint' the samples should just bow out.
Thanx for bringing this up! :)

4. Chris Rutkowski wrote:

 >You want dust samples from people who do not think they are
 >abductees. How do they know that?

The same way we cannot 'prove' that the abductees are actually
abductees, it would be impossible to prove the opposite. We'll
just have to take the word of the participants that they have
(or have not) had a lifetime of UFO/alien related experiences. I
don't think it'll happen, but wouldn't it be a real mind blower
if there was actually some difference in the samples that break
down according to which group the respondents claim to belong
to?! I'm looking forward to seeing the results of this thing.

5. anonymous wrote:

 >I'm one of the Michigan people that has the anomalous
 >'dust bunnies' in my home.

 >I'm wondering if Nick will be sharing his work/samples
 >with the Levengood group to verify his findings.

Yes. It would be imperative that we share/notify them of our
results. EBK may want to include their address in the mailings
so that they can follow along. It would be even better if they
shared the methods employed in gathering/storing/and analysis of
the samples. Would you please contact them on our behalf? Give
them my e-mail address.

6. Brian Cuthbertson wrote:

 >The only way those little glass "abductee" spheres might have
 >gotten into my place would have been as riders on that UFO video
 >you mailed me a few years back :-)

<LOL!> Glad to have you aboard Brian. John :)

---------------------->

To _all_ who volunteered, I will be in touch with you shortly
once we have the 'details' worked out. Again I thank you all for
your time and help in this matter. More later. :)

Sincerely,

John Velez

________________________________________________
                         AIC - Abduction Information Center -
                        www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                    jvif@spacelab.net
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Feb > Feb 29

                    Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!

From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:19:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:14:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!


Compliments of the Duke of Mendoza:

 >Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:26:03 -0500
 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >Subject: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

I missed this original proposal too. The weird thread title
grabbed me this time, though.

John, be my guest. I am certainly not an abductee, and deny
being in denial about it to boot. You are more than welcome to
good Welsh dust from Castle Despair. Please specify which wing
you would prefer as provenance, and whether bedroom, bathroom,
minstrel's gallery &c. It's a bit damp at this time of year but
should dry out to form the conventional looking stuff.

I can also get you good English dust from Moore Castle at good
rates. Ladies Caroline & Isobel's servants are unbelievably lax
and they have tons of the stuff over there. None of them has
been abducted either, except perhaps by the occasional
Frenchman, but we overlook that.

Seriously, I'll sign on for this one, even though I agree with
almost every word that Chris "Laugh A Minute" Rutkowski raises
in objection.

best wishes
Pananbrush D. Motesweeper
Genetic Sport









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   Feb > Feb 29

                    Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:54:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:00:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!


 >Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:26:03 -0500
 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >Subject: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again!
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Nick will conduct the analysis of any samples that are
 >submitted. I already have ten abductees (members of AIC) lined
 >up to submit samples from their homes. The only thing missing is
 >the non-abductee group.

<snip>

 >C'mon guys! Is this list just about blowing a lot of hot air on
 >each other or are there still some people who are interested in
 >looking for real answers? I wonder.

 >Contact me at my e-mail address if you are interested in
 >participating in the control group.

John and Nick,

Please count me in.  Contact me at tlemire@home.com

Todd Lemire
http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html



--
"We would rather, I suspect, fear the unknown than convert it to
the known.  What we may fear more deeply than the unknown itself
is the prospect of actually knowing it.  Happily for all of us
there are people like yourself who refuse to be bound by such
mass refusal of reality, who are not afraid to seek and learn."

Coral Lorenzen : Flying Saucers - The Startling Evidence of The
Invasion from Outer Space